# sex on the first date - can a long lasting relationship last?



## justdance4me (Jul 12, 2013)

Just what the topic says. Yay or Nay to sex on the first date? And I don't mean teenagers, I mean 30 something, consenting adults with good jobs, in the heat of passion - obviously sexually attracted and find a connection.

Also can a long lasting relationship leading to marriage come from it or is it doomed from the start?

Would love to hear opinions!


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Sure. Why not. Why is it a guy has sex, and he is a stud, and when a woman does it she is a slvt?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

justdance4me said:


> Just what the topic says. Yay or Nay to sex on the first date? And I don't mean teenagers, I mean 30 something, consenting adults with good jobs, in the heat of passion - obviously sexually attracted and find a connection.
> 
> Also can a long lasting relationship leading to marriage come from it or is it doomed from the start?
> 
> Would love to hear opinions!


I think it could last as long as hes not a player. then he just in it for a quick bang or two and hes on to greener pastures.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

It could, but this is something I would never do.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> I think it could last as long as hes not a player. then he just in it for a quick bang or two and hes on to greener pastures.





I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> It could, but this is something I would never do.


These two reply sum it up nicely


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## IrishGirlVA (Aug 27, 2012)

Been on both sides of these fences and I'm honestly OK with either one. However I learned with age that restraint, I mean patience, is a virtue. It's not that I am playing games or making the poor shlub wait, I just find that when I meet someone that I could see a long term relationship with, I prefer to wait. The sexual build up and all those exciting feelings that go along with it only happens once. So I prolong it for as long as I can. I failed a couple times at that along the way. LOL 

This wasn't your question, was it? I digress!  

My answer is yes, it can lead to a long term relationship if both of you have long term relationship goals. Not necessarily with each other but just in general.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I have never done this, because I'm very fussy about who I share my body with. If a guy expected me to sleep with him on a first date, it would be a clear indication to me that he probably sleeps around, so it would be a first and last date as far as I'm concerned.

Having said that, to each their own. There's no reason why sex on a first date should necessarily preclude a long term relationship. Just not for me.


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## justdance4me (Jul 12, 2013)

IrishGirlVA said:


> Been on both sides of these fences and I'm honestly OK with either one. However I learned with age that restraint, I mean patience, is a virtue. It's not that I am playing games or making the poor shlub wait, I just find that when I meet someone that I could see a long term relationship with, I prefer to wait. The sexual build up and all those exciting feelings that go along with it only happens once. So I prolong it for as long as I can. I failed a couple times at that along the way. LOL
> 
> This wasn't your question, was it? I digress!
> 
> My answer is yes, it can lead to a *long term relationship if both of you have long term relationship goals*. Not necessarily with each other but just in general.



Yes between two people who share the same long term goals! I think it can work but as other posters said make sure either of them are not "players" and not in it for a one night stand!!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

It depends on both people and the level of honesty [ intent] involved.
But decades ago , billy Joel said _" honest is such a lonely word."_
Then there's the troublesome issue of STD's , especially herpes simplex...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm sure it could happen and has happened bc there are always exceptions.
I haven't personally met a couple who had sex on the first night and lasted.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Technically it is possible, based on the circumstances , but risky.
Lemme give a real life example.

This guy,whom I grew up with, a professional in his field , met an Argentinian woman online , and began chatting.
She was also a professional in the same field as him, and they hit off instantly.
They chatted online for almost a year , and she decided to fly across to our country to meet him. She only had a couple of days.

They met, she stayed by him, obviously they would have had some good sex, and she returned to her home country, quit her job , got her finances in order and came back across to marry him.

That was three years ago.

Today, they are still married and both own and operate a business down here.
Initially, he couldn't speak Spanish well, and she couldn't speak English well either. However, they both spoke the language of love, 
Fluently.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

I don't think sex on the first night is an automatic disqualifier for a long lasting relationship, but if some really kinky stuff goes down like somebody whips out a blow up doll named "Candy Lips" to make it a threesome, maybe you should put your clothes back on and leave immediately. So anybody else have that happen or just me?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'd rather see if a man has enough respect for me to wait for me to show I'm ready than assuming. And if he EXPECTS to have it on the first date, run!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm one who believes that if there's going to be a spark its going to happen right away. And I hate game playing, wont waste my time on it. And I consider holding back even when you want to as game playing. For these reasons, when I was single I had a 3 date rule. Basically if it didn't happen by then I assumed that if it eventually would that it wouldn't be great because that immediate spark wasn't there (or she was a game player). 

I had sex with my wife of 21 years the day after our 1st date.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hah! And my DD22 won't even CONSIDER doing it until at LEAST 3 dates in.

Male/female thing?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I had sex with my wife of 21 years the day after our 1st date.


 I did, too, with my husband. But I didn't want to. But I'd learned by then that guys dump you if you don't put out (I was 21 by then). I later asked him if he would have asked me out again if I'd refused him. He said no.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I had sex with my husband on the first date and we have been married almost 27 years.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think it depends on if this was sex because of a unique spark between the two people

Or

If sex on the first date is something either partner engaged in routinely or on occasion with other dates.

In the first case, there is hope.

Not as much in the second case.


It's just like dating someone with a history of deeply falling in love quickly - you know you are just the latest soulmate they've found, and you would be deluding yourself if you think you are the last.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

justdance4me said:


> Just what the topic says. Yay or Nay to sex on the first date? And I don't mean teenagers, I mean 30 something, consenting adults with good jobs, in the heat of passion - obviously sexually attracted and find a connection.
> 
> Also can a long lasting relationship leading to marriage come from it or is it doomed from the start?
> 
> Would love to hear opinions!


It depends on the values of those involved. If a woman had sex with me on the first date, then I would assume that it wasn't the first time for her. I would assume that she routinely has sex on the first date.

If I was looking for a sexual relationship with an experienced woman, then I would be very happy about sex on the first date. If I were looking for eventual marriage with a fairly chaste woman, then I would not be happy. I think most men would prefer to marry inexperienced women.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I prefer to marry a highly sexual woman and as the age goes up, the chances of a chaste woman being highly sexual go down. Chaste and 19? Ok. Chaste and 29? Sexless marriage in your future.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I prefer to marry a highly sexual woman and as the age goes up, the chances of a chaste woman being highly sexual go down. Chaste and 19? Ok. Chaste and 29? Sexless marriage in your future.


I agree. But a woman in her 30s, unless she is recently divorced, has had a lot of first dates. Banging a fair percentage of those men would put her partner count too high for my comfort level.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I had my ex wife in bed four hours into our first date. We were married for 17 years. Before her, I had only slept with one other woman, and that happened on the first date. We dated for the better part of two years.

My STBW and I waited until the second date. We have talked about that a bit. We were at her house on our first date. She lived two hours away. There was some pretty heavy making out, but it was 1am and I had to go home. She was very close to asking me if I just wanted to crash on her couch so I didn't have to drive that far, that late at night. We both agree that if I had spent the night, we would have ended up in bed together in a matter of minutes. The initial spark we felt was like nothing we had ever felt before. That first kiss was like a star exploding.

I agree that purposefully holding out for no other reason than because you can, to make the other person somehow "prove" themselves by waiting is nothing more than gameplaying. It sends a message that they are willing to use sex as a bargaining chip and is nothing more than a sh1t test from the very beginning.

I understand and accept not sleeping together right away if you are not feeling like you are at that point. That you need more of a connection. That is fine and understandable, but very different from saying no just on principle.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

It can work long term and it can also be a complete mistake. It's not something one can predict. 

It worked for me and my husband, and we've been married 11 years. For me, it just felt right and I went with my gut. So far so good!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

turnera said:


> I did, too, with my husband. But I didn't want to. But I'd learned by then that guys dump you if you don't put out (I was 21 by then). I later asked him if he would have asked me out again if I'd refused him. He said no.


My experience is that this is pretty much always lose-lose. They dump you if you do put out (cuz you're a slvt), and they dump you if you don't (cuz you're obviously not sexual enough.)

So I do what *I* want. 

My SO and I slept together on our first "real" date (we knew each other before through friends) and have been together for 15 yrs.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It's a numbers thing.

100% of the men who have no problem with a woman giving sex on the first date will have no problem with woman having sex in the 3rd, 5th, 100th date.

The reverse is not true.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

It worked for me. 2nd marriage, 7 years and counting. 

It was a long distance "relationship"....actually it wasn't a relationship until we met. Online talk for a year (mostly in a chat room with other friends) then we met half way. Grown and horny, and figuring it could go a few different ways... maybe no click and no sex, maybe click and fair sex.... turns out, major chemistry great sex, a whole naked weekend.... and happily ever after! 

I have to say.... being online, being long distance... there was ALOT of communication! Being in a chat room with other friends (and some not friends) allowed us to see each others attitudes, goals, daily situations, etc... I think we knew an awful lot about each other before it ever got intimate (the conversations I mean!) and before we made it to that first date!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I prefer to marry a highly sexual woman and as the age goes up, the chances of a chaste woman being highly sexual go down. Chaste and 19? Ok. Chaste and 29? Sexless marriage in your future.



Maybe you're correct, but in my case , my wife was a 26 yr old virgin.
I am younger than her.
This morning around 1 AM , after our second consecutive round of sex, I was lying on the bed wondering how much I would have missed, if I had decided not to stick around when she said no sex.

At 46 , her sex drive is increasing , exponentially.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Thound said:


> Sure. Why not. Why is it a guy has sex, and he is a stud, and when a woman does it she is a slvt?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because too many women don't look down on a guy who does that. They'll marry a guy that's had lots of women.

Women want to blame men for the double standard - but why should they argue for NSA sex vs. holding men to the same standard?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> It worked for me. 2nd marriage, 7 years and counting.
> 
> It was a long distance "relationship"....actually it wasn't a relationship until we met. Online talk for a year (mostly in a chat room with other friends) then we met half way. Grown and horny, and figuring it could go a few different ways... maybe no click and no sex, maybe click and fair sex.... turns out, major chemistry great sex, a whole naked weekend.... and happily ever after!
> 
> I have to say.... being online, being long distance... there was ALOT of communication! Being in a chat room with other friends (and some not friends) allowed us to see each others attitudes, goals, daily situations, etc... I think we knew an awful lot about each other before it ever got intimate (the conversations I mean!) and before we made it to that first date!


Very similar to my STBW and I. We met online, and spent the better part of a month talking on the phone for hours a day before we ever met in person, so we had a pretty strong relationship before our first date. The only question we had at that point was what was the sexual chemistry going to be like because we already had the friendship down. The chemistry was mind blowing.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Thound said:


> Sure. Why not. Why is it a guy has sex, and he is a stud, and when a woman does it she is a slvt?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because the motivation for a man and a woman to have sex is different.

Men are program to have sex with just about anyone in order to spread genetic material as far as possible. Women however need to be choosy on a mate to get the best genetics out of a pool of suitors.
So biologically speaking, it’s an advantage for a male to be promiscuous (as far as reproduction is concerned) but not so much for a female. If a female does not appear to be as selective about who she mates with it give the impression that she may have issues (would not make a good mother) so would not make a good long term mate. 

For a man, the act of mating supposed to be a challenge. 

Now what I said would happen on a subconscious level, not thoughts that might actually cross your mind. 

This is my understanding anyway. Should it be equal? I think so but it’s not. Men are for the most part still the pursuers and women are the “gatekeepers” of sex. It’s pretty much thier job to make us work for it.

For me as far as dating I don’t hit it on the first date and if I have an ONS I tried not to get too emotionally involved. I have trouble respecting someone that’s “too easy” so to speak. Nothing worth having comes easy (pun).

That’s just me and I’m not saying I’m right. There’s really no right or wrong here, just personal preferences.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Maybe you're correct, but in my case , my wife was a 26 yr old virgin.
> I am younger than her.
> This morning around 1 AM , after our second consecutive round of sex, I was lying on the bed wondering how much I would have missed, if I had decided not to stick around when she said no sex.
> 
> At 46 , her sex drive is increasing , exponentially.


Of course there will always be outlier examples people can point to. Personally I don't want to gamble at that end of the bell curve. It worked out great for you, but I'm not that lucky.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I prefer to marry a highly sexual woman and as the age goes up, the chances of a chaste woman being highly sexual go down. Chaste and 19? Ok. Chaste and 29? Sexless marriage in your future.


But didn't you end up with a long dry spell in your marriage?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

We didn't have PIV on our first date, but I did go down on her. Married 19 years now.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> But didn't you end up with a long dry spell in your marriage?


I'm not convinced that a dry spell 12 years after that first date is related to putting out too quickly. That's a lot of dots to connect.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not convinced that a dry spell 12 years after that first date is related to putting out too quickly. That's a lot of dots to connect.


Not necessarily... but you made the point that getting with a woman who put out quickly would result in a lower chance of that. In a way you're a counter example - heck may I am too.

For my wife a part of the decline was guilt after giving it up quick. We had PIV sex within a week of dating. Once she had a daughter she had a hard time with connecting not wanting her daughter to do what she did with what she did.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Not necessarily... but you made the point that getting with a woman who put out quickly would result in a lower chance of that. In a way you're a counter example - heck may I am too.
> 
> For my wife a part of the decline was guilt after giving it up quick. We had PIV sex within a week of dating. Once she had a daughter she had a hard time with connecting not wanting her daughter to do what she did with what she did.


I made no such point. Making the point that a woman who is not sexual to begin with will likely be that way long term is not the same as saying a sexual woman will stay that way. Please don't put words in my mouth.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Fair enough. To be honest, that's how I read it, but as you clarify I understand you completely.

Your a poster here I do respect, so no offense intended. Thanks for being polite in your response.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ArmyofJuan said:


> Because the motivation for a man and a woman to have sex is different.
> 
> Men are program to have sex with just about anyone in order to spread genetic material as far as possible. Women however need to be choosy on a mate to get the best genetics out of a pool of suitors.
> So biologically speaking, it’s an advantage for a male to be promiscuous (as far as reproduction is concerned) but not so much for a female. If a female does not appear to be as selective about who she mates with it give the impression that she may have issues (would not make a good mother) so would not make a good long term mate.
> ...


Can we please, please, please leave the Victorian-era-hangover pseudoscience behind? Please?

If a man isn't selective about who he mates, then he's just a gross loser with tons of issues. 

If he's a super-studly manly man with dozens of gorgeous models hanging off his arms, well, yay for him, but he's still showing a predilection for a certain type of relationship and a certain type of woman, which says a lot about the type of character he is.

Even evolutionarily speaking, reproduction isn't just about spreading seed like salmon. Successful reproduction requires survival of the offspring -- and there is much more than good genes required. Otherwise, we women would just lay our eggs and be done with it. Let the little ones figure out if they've got the DNA to swim up stream. 

Fact is, men like sex and women like sex, But we're stuck in a whole world of stereotypes about what that means.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

justdance4me said:


> Just what the topic says. Yay or Nay to sex on the first date? And I don't mean teenagers, I mean 30 something, consenting adults with good jobs, in the heat of passion - obviously sexually attracted and find a connection.
> 
> Also can a long lasting relationship leading to marriage


It can. It depends on the couple. 

I personally am not down with sex on the first date as I like to get to know someone a little better (plus there is nothing sexier than the build up). But to each their own.

Use protection.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ChargingCharlie said:


> About a week or so later had sex for first time. Of course, we probably had sex more in that week than we've had in the last five years (no exaggeration).


:rofl:


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

The problem with having sex on the first date is that you are projecting who you think this person is. You do not know them yet, so you make up a story about how exciting they are, and how they fit your idea of a great lover.

The love chemicals flood your brain, and you may miss signs that this person is not emotionally compatible with you. People can be an exciting sexual partner but a terrible spouse. Only time will reveal the real person, and you can then see if your initial impression was correct.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Can we please, please, please leave the Victorian-era-hangover pseudoscience behind? Please?


But it is where a lot of the motivation of these feelings come from. The human brain didn't suddenly evolve in the last 100 years. Yes it can be overridden by conscious thought, but there is a lot of unconscious programming back there that requires effort to overcome.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SunnyT said:


> It was a long distance "relationship"....actually it wasn't a relationship until we met. Online talk for a year (mostly in a chat room with other friends) then we met half way. Grown and horny, and figuring it could go a few different ways... maybe no click and no sex, maybe click and fair sex.... turns out, major chemistry great sex, a whole naked weekend.... and happily ever after!
> 
> I have to say.... being online, being long distance... there was ALOT of communication! Being in a chat room with other friends (and some not friends) allowed us to see each others attitudes, goals, daily situations, etc... I think we knew an awful lot about each other before it ever got intimate (the conversations I mean!) and before we made it to that first date!


This is great.

My husband and I talked to each other for 2 consecutive nights before we met in person... we let it all hang out for a total of 15 hours of conversation. 6.5 hours the first night and 8.5 the second.

Both of us had been married previously. I think it helped sort through all the BS and we just didn't want to a) waste one another's time, and b) not be completely upfront about everything from day 1.

I think it fueled that chemistry because it was day 3 when we met in person, and he's been the only one in my bed ever since.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> This is great.
> 
> My husband and I talked to each other for 2 consecutive nights before we met in person... we let it all hang out for a total of 15 hours of conversation. 6.5 hours the first night and 8.5 the second.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what my STBW and I did. I call it laundry listing. We just laid it all out with regards to the big issues like money, kids, religion, politic, sex. No games, and no wasting eachothers time.

We talked for hours and hours every day for a month before we met in person, and we still do over a year later.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great take on the difference between men having all the sex they want and women not wanting to be seen as so:
What's Your Number? (2011) - IMDb


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Can we please, please, please leave the Victorian-era-hangover pseudoscience behind? Please?


Why is that? Are you a creationist who believes that modern man has existed unchanged since his appearance on the planet? Or are you someone who believes that we have evolved our legs, hands, hearts, and eyes, but not our brains?

If sexual preferences and practices are the result of conscious choices and/or social pressures, how do you explain the standards that exist around the world in disparate cultures?



> If a man isn't selective about who he mates, then he's just a gross loser with tons of issues.


Would you say that women who are promiscuous are also losers? If so, can two losers have a long lasting relationship?



> If he's a super-studly manly man with dozens of gorgeous models hanging off his arms, well, yay for him, but he's still showing a predilection for a certain type of relationship and a certain type of woman, which says a lot about the type of character he is.


Moralizing aside, how would you explain the predilection so many attractive women have for "disgusting losers," as you have coined them?



> Even evolutionarily speaking, reproduction isn't just about spreading seed like salmon. Successful reproduction requires survival of the offspring -- and there is much more than good genes required. Otherwise, we women would just lay our eggs and be done with it. Let the little ones figure out if they've got the DNA to swim up stream.


You've missed the point. From a strictly biological perspective, sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Men can afford to play a numbers game. It is physically possible for a man to have hundreds, or even thousands, of children. He can impregnate a woman, then move on to another woman. Even without vetting the women as potential mothers, odds are good that several of his children will live to adulthood and pass his genes on.

Women don't have that luxury. The physical limit on children from a single woman is probably around 20. And if she abandons one, he will probably die. So, in order for a woman to pass her genes on, she must spend her resources to ensure that some of her children live. She doesn't have as many strikes as the man does.



> Fact is, men like sex and women like sex, But we're stuck in a whole world of stereotypes about what that means.


I think we're stuck in a world where many people refuse to recognize the physical and psychological differences between men and women. If I had a nickel for every time someone argued that women are simply men with breasts, I would be a rich man.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

justdance4me said:


> Just what the topic says. Yay or Nay to sex on the first date? And I don't mean teenagers, I mean 30 something, consenting adults with good jobs, in the heat of passion - obviously sexually attracted and find a connection.
> 
> Also can a long lasting relationship leading to marriage come from it or is it doomed from the start?
> 
> Would love to hear opinions!


A friend from HS met a guy in college, they had a ONS and they have been married for twenty years. It's possible. 

My husband and I met for lunch, two days later for coffee, two days later had our first real date and had sex. We have been together three years.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

I am facing this very question now, I told the guy no sex because I wasn't ready, I'm not divorced yet even though I wasn't in my marriage for very long, married 7 months, no sex for 5 months. Did I want to jump his bones.....h#ll yes. Then I drop the bomb on him about testing and STD's if he really wanted sex. Guess what, I haven't heard from him again. WOWwwwwwwwww.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

LovesHerMan said:


> The problem with having sex on the first date is that you are projecting who you think this person is. You do not know them yet, so you make up a story about how exciting they are, and how they fit your idea of a great lover.
> 
> The love chemicals flood your brain, and you may miss signs that this person is not emotionally compatible with you. People can be an exciting sexual partner but a terrible spouse. Only time will reveal the real person, and you can then see if your initial impression was correct.


:iagree:
It's like playing the lotto and hoping to win.

You get a "_ good feeling _" about a bunch of numbers so you decide to take the chance.
However, your " _good feelings_" have absolutely no effect on the machine hence the odds will ALWAYS be stacked against you.

In any event, who goes out on a first date hoping to get married or have a long term intimate relationship?

IMO, going on a first date , offering sex and hoping the other person commits to a long term relationship because of it , seems manipulative to me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> It's like playing the lotto and hoping to win.
> 
> You get a "_ good feeling _" about a bunch of numbers so you decide to take the chance.
> ...


Most first date sex would be in alcohol and club environments, not the preclude to long term serious relationships.

For short term flings, this is how its' done. The energy is all lust and pure physical attraction. No basis for someone you want to build trust with.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

It just so happens that on Cosmo radio this morning (a satellite station) they said that according to a Cosmopolitan Magazine poll, over 38% of women surveyed said they have had sex on a first date. 

No idea about how scientific the poll was.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> It's like playing the lotto and hoping to win.
> 
> You get a "_ good feeling _" about a bunch of numbers so you decide to take the chance.
> ...


Interesting.

In the 2 days of talking prior to meeting my husband face to face all I had was a photo of him. I worked with his cousin who directed me to a dating website to find the pic. Alternatively, my husband had no idea what I looked like, only my description over the phone.

I thought he was super hot, but it was his eyes that got me. I saw something in them from the pic I had. When we met at my house, and when I opened the door and said hello, he said that's the moment he fell in love with me. Despite his original intentions on his way over to my house, the first thought he had when I opened that door was "She's going to be my wife" and he had no doubts or fears about it. 6 months later we married.

I suppose it was the lottery. I won. I won big.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Theseus said:


> It just so happens that on Cosmo radio this morning (a satellite station) they said that according to a Cosmopolitan Magazine poll, over 38% of women surveyed said they have had sex on a first date.
> 
> No idea about how scientific the poll was.


Sheesh..... it COULDN'T be scientific if it was Cosmo. They are entertaining.... sometimes, but never scientific.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I think it really depends on the individuals.
For some it can, for some it can't.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> I did, too, with my husband. But I didn't want to. But I'd learned by then that guys dump you if you don't put out (I was 21 by then). I later asked him if he would have asked me out again if I'd refused him. He said no.


 For me, these were exactly the type to WEED out...one thing would be painfully obvious...we had very different priorities... if taking the TIME & some effort to get to know a woman emotionally is TOO MUCH HASSLE for a man...before she allows him to slip his hand down her pants...the message sent is less "Gentlemanly". 



WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm one who believes that if there's going to be a spark its going to happen right away. *And I hate game playing, wont waste my time on it.* And I consider holding back even when you want to as game playing. For these reasons, when I was single I had a 3 date rule. Basically if it didn't happen by then I assumed that if it eventually would that it wouldn't be great because that immediate spark wasn't there (or she was a game player).
> 
> I had sex with my wife of 21 years the day after our 1st date.





samyeagar said:


> *I agree that purposefully holding out for no other reason than because you can, to make the other person somehow "prove" themselves by waiting is nothing more than gameplaying.* It sends a message that they are willing to use sex as a bargaining chip and is nothing more than a sh1t test from the very beginning.


 So what if the Girl / woman has convictions, values - and wants to wait to only sleep with a man who has shown her his true intentions, that he is there for HER, for more than the almighty bang... I would never sleep with a man on the 1st 3 dates...that would be putting the physical before the emotional...which would F*** with my moral values on a very large scale...

I feel unless you know a man to such a degree, you can call him any time day or night- knowing he cares for your well being... some memories have been built, You both trust each other enough to use each others credit cards (for example)... helps to meet some family, his friends..Trust has grown, and if birth control fails, you KNOW this man would be there for you & the child... 

You 2 may see this as "game playing"...and we all have our opinions.. My feelings are vastly different on this, though I am going to defend this is NOT Game playing to some of us........

I am one who despises GAMES from people, deal breaker [email protected]#$%..if you can't speak what you mean without some manipulation, I'd want rid of you to. 

What I see here is MEN who have ZERO respect or care for a woman needing to make sure she is comfortable, wanting to engage in something that could HARM her down the road/ throwing a good woman out too quickly because your willy couldn't handle it... I realize you don't see it THIS way... but from our perspective , those who hold MY VIEWS....would.

I prefer the men who actually CARE and it IS a big deal that she didn't sleep around... those are MY type... I carry the Romantic view of Sex...I like 'em sensitive too... the ones who DUMP you cause you didn't put out - they are RARELY the sensitive type... 



> *3. ** Romantic View *~
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One can not know these things by the 3rd date... 

The 2 of you , WorkingOnme and Samyeagar hold the "*Sex is Just sex"*view and/or the *"Expressive View"*. plenty of women to accompany you.... the 6 sexual lenses explained HERE.




> *4. * *"Plain Sex" view*~ "just enjoy it for what it is".... Cultural constructs linking love & sex are outmoded: Sexual desire is an acute bodily desire for physical contact with another. Sex is an intensely pleasurable physical activity. Sex should be based on mutual consent leading to mutual sexual satisfaction, so that “noone gets hurt.”
> 
> This view claims feels the above views are outdated, no longer do we need to link Love & sex..... Sexuality is now best seen as simply an acute physical desire for an intensely pleasurable physical activity that naturally leads to engaging in bodily exploration.
> 
> ...


Some things are worth waiting for...I count Sex among one of those....for the right man, the right season.. so it is all it was meant to be.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

My wife and I had sex before we had our first date.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Tomara said:


> I am facing this very question now, I told the guy no sex because I wasn't ready, I'm not divorced yet even though I wasn't in my marriage for very long, married 7 months, no sex for 5 months. Did I want to jump his bones.....h#ll yes. Then I drop the bomb on him about testing and STD's if he really wanted sex. Guess what, I haven't heard from him again. WOWwwwwwwwww.


He probably assumed you were untying up artificial road blocks and that you weren't really that into him.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Kind of the opposite for me too. Unusual to have a date the first time we had sex.

After high school, I can't for the life of me actually remember going out on a "date". No movies, dancing, dinner - I never asked anyone. 

But I had always had long term girlfriends and there was someone waiting in the wings who was the obvious person to be with after breaking up. 

The exception is my wife, and we did go out to pizza beforehand, but it was clear to both of us from the outset what was going to happen and we only went to eat because we were both hungry. The waitress thought we had been together for years and said something about how we looked so happy as a couple. She was floored when we told her we had just met each other that day. The guy at the table next to us at breakfast the next morning said the same thing! 

Both of us felt like we had known each other for years too. Isn't that crazy?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> For me, these were exactly the type to WEED out...one thing would be painfully obvious...we had very different priorities... if taking the TIME & some effort to get to know a woman emotionally is TOO MUCH HASSLE for a man...before she allows him to slip his hand down her pants...the message sent is less "Gentlemanly".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That right there addresses the other part of my post that you didn't quote. If you have certain emotional requirements that need to be filled before you can sleep with someone, that is not playing games. Nor is having moral conviction against it, because that moral conviction prevents you from being emotionally ready for it. What I was addressing in what you quoted are people who say they will not do it just because they can withold. They may feel the desire to sleep with them, and are in an emotional place where they can, but withold to get the other to prove themselves.

'If he waits for me, he must really love me' can be just as mistaken as 'If he sleeps with me he must really love me.'


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Kind of the opposite for me too. Unusual to have a date the first time we had sex.
> 
> After high school, I can't for the life of me actually remember going out on a "date". No movies, dancing, dinner - I never asked anyone.
> 
> ...


I felt the same way about my husband after about the first two weeks! That's awesome.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> What I see here is MEN who have ZERO respect or care for a woman needing to make sure she is comfortable, wanting to engage in something that could HARM her down the road/ throwing a good woman out too quickly because your willy couldn't handle it... I realize you don't see it THIS way... but from our perspective , those who hold MY VIEWS....would.
> 
> I prefer the men who actually CARE and it IS a big deal that she didn't sleep around... those are MY type... I carry the Romantic view of Sex...I like 'em sensitive too... the ones who DUMP you cause you didn't put out - they are RARELY the sensitive type...
> 
> ...


Wow. Not sure where to start with the rest of this. I have slept with three women in my life. All three I had known for a while before it happened. 

My first, I had been friends with for the better part of two years. We finally went out on a date and it happened. No regrets. We dated for a couple of years before she died. 

My second, who became my wife, and then ex wife, I had know for a couple of months before our first date. She was the pursuer, and I was receptive. 

My STBW and I, it was completely mutual in pursuit. We had spent over 200 hours in conversation over the course of a month and a half before we slept together. 

I have never had a ONS. While I have no religious or moral hangups regarding sex, I'm not one who will jump into bed with anything that'll have me. I have been the sexual rejector in several dating relationships. I have to be at a certain place emotionally for me to want it.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> He probably assumed you were untying up artificial road blocks and that you weren't really that into him.


Tell me how clean bill of health has anything to do with artificial road blocks? Date One I went to the fair with him, I had to drive to meet him, 1hr there 1hr back home, Date two, had him over for pizza and beer and watch the ball game, Third Date I grilled steaks and we talked and watched the ballgame. I think if I did that, I was showing him a lot of interest. I thought we had great chemistry.....guess I better stop thinking!:scratchhead:


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I dunno. Just feels like a roadblock to me. Like you're pulling back and not really into him. Let me ask, since he didn't call back, have you tried calling him? Or is that against the rules?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

samyeagar said:


> That right there addresses the other part of my post that you didn't quote. *If you have certain emotional requirements that need to be filled before you can sleep with someone, that is not playing games*.


 Well I thank you for this Samyeagar  



> Nor is having moral conviction against it, because that moral conviction prevents you from being emotionally ready for it. What I was addressing in what you quoted are people who say they will not do it just because they can withold. They may feel the desire to sleep with them, and are in an emotional place where they can, but withold to get the other to prove themselves.
> 
> *'If he waits for me, he must really love me' can be just as mistaken as 'If he sleeps with me he must really love me.'*


 This is why waiting is for the best, so those feelings of uncertainty can come to light.... so many DO mistake one thing to mean another in the sexual (because of how differently we associate the meaning of sex - it needs talked about, explored, understood)....or someone gets hurt........ You can never know another's intentions or much of anything on the 1st 3 dates or even the 1st couple months... 

I will not even share how long my husband waited for me to have intercourse... some would say he was the biggest fool on the planet...(we still had our pleasure - Oh yes)... it's something we both agreed on & could LIVE with while our emotional connection grew... he knew it was important to me and he respected me more for it.. Very very rare to find men like that....this separated him from the rest. 

One might say he overly proved himself....I knew I was 100% safe in his arms/ in his love yrs before we had sex.... we agreed together to wait till our wedding night ..there was no manipulation, no games, no proving love...this was our "something new" to bring to our Marriage...besides my taking his last name... I also took his manhood. 

Of course people can have







on the 1st date, and still fall in love & head down the aisle.....they can also fall into an affair and go on to marry too... is it statistically the best way to go about things, I would say no... but as with anything.. there are exceptions to any road  to a lasting relationship.



> *Tomara said*: Tell me how clean bill of health has anything to do with artificial road blocks? Date One I went to the fair with him, *I had to drive to meet him, 1hr there 1hr back home,* Date two, had him over for pizza and beer and watch the ball game, Third Date* I grilled steaks* and we talked and watched the ballgame. I think if I did that, I was showing him a lot of interest. I thought we had great chemistry.....guess I better stop thinking :scratchhead:


 Sounds to me you was going above and beyond to show how you cared to this man... driving all that way.. the steaks..what was you getting.. I think he just wanted sex.... he didn't want the woman getting too demanding...cause that = she wants a relationship.......exclusivity.... he must not have been into that part. I'd wonder if he had the STD at that point and didn't want found out.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

SA your story is very sweet!

My mom told me when I was a teen that once I tasted the forbidden fruit that I would want to taste it again and again. IMO she was 100% right. I think it's much harder to hold off on having sexual intercourse if you already have experienced it. I tried to slow the process down in some of my relationships prior to my husband but, alas... my flesh was weak. I got 3 weeks in and I couldn't stand it anymore. I would imagine the gentleman I was with had a tougher time than I did waiting. I've known no virgins in my travels. All the men I've rocked the sheets with had some pretty lively (and not so lively) conquests.

Again, it's so cool that you and your husband could hold out for one another. It IS your special thing you share... me and mine have other special things we share and I know that's okay too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

samyeagar said:


> Wow. Not sure where to start with the rest of this. I have slept with three women in my life. All three I had known for a while before it happened.
> 
> My first, I had been friends with for the better part of two years. We finally went out on a date and it happened. No regrets. We dated for a couple of years before she died.
> 
> ...


You sound like a good man samyeagar - just going by what you said here ... I have that book explaining the 6 views and I find the whole subject fascinating.. the author has taught Sexual Ethics for 20 yrs at Hope College......it gets to the heart of explaining just HOW MURKY it is when 2 people come together with differing sexual views... 

And really nothing is more exciting, physically exhilarating, euphoric, emotionally fulfilling than MAKING sweet love... so on the one hand, restraint is very very hard ....I remember how I felt when we 1st started to get alone, I was thinking OH MY GOD, HOW IN THE HELL are we NOT going to go [email protected]#$ Everything in my body wanted to.. I was just 15.... of course we freaking WANT IT...and badly..

But on the other hand.... sex carries a lot of responsibility with it...and our emotions do get in the way... to deny this is to cheapen it... so some of us feel.

We have 6 kids to raise in this sexually charged society where it screams anything goes... I think learning the roots to what our motivations really are is very very very important...

The "*POWER view*" is purely one who derides an *EGO boost* if he /she can get the other in bed.. if that isn't using another person ...oh how sad if/ when the other felt it meant MORE than THAT.... it really had not a damn thing to do with the person he was getting off with . it's just something we should all be aware of ...and to teach our children...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You sound like a good man samyeagar - just going by what you said here ... I have that book explaining the 6 views and I find the whole subject fascinating.. the author has taught Sexual Ethics for 20 yrs at Hope College......it gets to the heart of explaining just HOW MURKY it is when 2 people come together with differing sexual views...
> 
> And really nothing is more exciting, physically exhilarating, euphoric, emotionally fulfilling than MAKING sweet love... so on the one hand, restraint is very very hard ....I remember how I felt when we 1st started to get alone, I was thinking OH MY GOD, HOW IN THE HELL are we NOT going to go [email protected]#$ Everything in my body wanted to.. I was just 15.... of course we freaking WANT IT...and badly..
> 
> ...


What about the "power view" of withholders? Like lady of the lake? We were discussing "power view", and some people were overly swelling their ego's from having a value system in which they know they will not meet the needs of the ones they are in a relationship with.

So a "power view" LD, would get off on not being easy, saying no, that they dont "have" to do anything! And over time the ego is fat and swollen and greasy like a pig from literally doing nothing. They may not even realize the pain and frustration they inject into their partners, but whats even worse is when they DO know the pain and suffering, understand it fully, and they get off on being able to subject another human being to it.


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

Call me old fashioned, but I need to be emotionally invested and wanted to be ready for sex. I need to really know the person and that could take months so it is what it is. My first was setup by some friends at a party to lose my v-card and it was not anything like I thought it would be, it ended up being a lesson to myself about my needs above.


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## justdance4me (Jul 12, 2013)

Wow thank you everyone for the great discussion! I read alot about emotions, respect etc.

What if both individuals were horny for each other and either/or (girl or guy) initiated sex.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

justdance4me said:


> Wow thank you everyone for the great discussion! I read alot about emotions, respect etc.
> 
> What if both individuals were horny for each other and either/or (girl or guy) initiated sex.


When I was younger, I was always 'horny.' Had I given into my horniness, my numbers would have run into the number of guys I dated - which was a lot. 

It isn't always in our best interests to indulge ourselves just because it seems like a good idea at the time, IMO.


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## justdance4me (Jul 12, 2013)

Ok the situation is not mine but was discussing with a friend as she met a guy (who lives in Utah out of all places and she in New Jersey). She was in Utah for work, met a guy through a colleague and hooked up on their 2nd meeting but first official date, but have been doing a long distance thing for a few months now. She asked me if I honestly think it can work!!

Both were highly attracted to each other and one thing lead to another!!


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> It can work - it's very dependent on the individuals. Hub and I knew each other years before but had sex on our first 'date'. That was over 12 years ago.


I was going to post this for my own story, same thing. 

Too bad I wasn't her last.... as she has been for me.

But... we're still together, R seems to be going swimmingly, so there you have it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

treyvion said:


> What about the "power view" of withholders? Like lady of the lake? We were discussing "power view", and some people were overly swelling their ego's from having a value system in which they know they will not meet the needs of the ones they are in a relationship with.
> 
> So a "power view" LD, would get off on not being easy, saying no, that they dont "have" to do anything! And over time the ego is fat and swollen and greasy like a pig from literally doing nothing. They may not even realize the pain and frustration they inject into their partners, but whats even worse is when they DO know the pain and suffering, understand it fully, and they get off on being able to subject another human being to it.


You raise an excellent point on the other side of this.. .absolutely [email protected]#$% Sex can be used to ABUSE, USE, manipulate, to ego boost...to show comfort, the deepest in the emotional, it can be healing...or to just get off in the physical / pleasure ride with no strings... can we even count the ways... and our own true motivations in it..... 

I remember reading Lady of the Lake's thread on LD...how she used MEN because she had the looks to turn their heads and keep them panting... POWER written all over that to boost her own ego and manipulate with a Grin .. ..she ENJOYED danging that carrot in front of them... and she didn't even have to give it up [email protected]#

Well those men were dumb-asses if they could't read her character by then... for one... 

And frankly... my blood BOILED how she handled sex in her marriage... it caused an angry rise in me ..I had to temper my replies on her thread or I might have gotten my 1st ban... not that she would have cared what anyone said, she was the most UN emotional poster I have ever seen on this forum in a woman..... how her husband managed to even stay with her , is beyond my comprehension... pure selfishness ....

I give her credit for her honesty, cause it sure made her look bad....and God help any man who marries a selfish LOW Driver.. .that is what I got from THAT thread...may I warn every one of my sons - to spare them such heartache [email protected]#$

Yes... the "*Power view*" at play .


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I still think Lady has Asperger's.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

justdance4me said:


> Wow thank you everyone for the great discussion! I read alot about emotions, respect etc.
> 
> What if both individuals were horny for each other and either/or (girl or guy) initiated sex.


I'm with Cosmos's post... If I gave it up as much as the wetness in my panties wanted in my youth....or even counting times alone with boys willing.... it would have hurt my husband, it means so much that I waited for him... Some guys don't care... MINE did... and it's not an insecurity, it's about the specialness of it. 

Heck -- I was even jumping my Stuffed  when I was 12 ! I was always [email protected]#


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Heck -- I was even jumping my Stuffed  when I was 12 ! I was always [email protected]#


TMI! :rofl:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> TMI! :rofl:


Yeah, I know --that's me ...I felt DIRTY for that for many years.... I guess I am trying a little too hard to bring the point home...just cause a girl doesn't give it up doesn't mean she is ALWAYS low drive...or even manipulative -- a guy needs to take the time, dig deep and see what she is all about. In our youth, we are all struggling with our hormones, our emotions...and we need to be careful, consider the costs.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

The thing is, not everybody has to be right for everybody else. We all have our own values and just because they don't mesh doesn't mean they're wrong. I have my own values, insecurities and triggers, so I wouldn't be the right man for many women. Just like you're not the right woman for every man.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The thing is, not everybody has to be right for everybody else. We all have our own values and just because they don't mesh doesn't mean they're wrong. I have my own values, insecurities and triggers, so I wouldn't be the right man for many women. Just like you're not the right woman for every man.


 Very true !! The world would be pretty boring if we were all the same.... Though I'm still going to say... even with what you said here... it's still another reason to not jump in bed too quick ...to at least give a little time to sort that out...

I guess it will sort itself out when she holds her boundary... I am wondering though WorkingOnMe... you mentioned triggers / insecurities... Do you have some in relation a woman holding out ?? Just trying to understand the male mind in this... as all I see is a man who can't keep his fly zipped & his priority is pleasure. 

Does some men NEED the woman to show sexual interest ...and quickly - by the 3rd date to feel wanted -or this triggers something in them?? 

I've read some situations online where the women would pull back the guys jeans and look to see if he is hard, if not, she wouldn't go out again with him.. sounds so cruel to me personally but (or maybe she was looking at size !) -maybe she NEEDS and feeds on his sexual attraction to THAT extent ...I don't know! 

OR (as I am assuming)....do you really just see these type of women as a pure waste of time and effort....no insecurities at play. 

If I am asking too much... ignore me.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's a long story involving a 2 year virgin girlfriend who effed a guy at a party. My first experience with infidelity.

I was your husband SA. Except my patience was rewarded by her giving her wonderful gift to a football player one drunken night.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> 'If he waits for me, he must really love me' can be just as mistaken as 'If he sleeps with me he must really love me.'


My thoughts exactly, I've seen this happen enough times that I think it's actually worse than if someone gets dumped because they have sex "too early" (whatever the hell that means.)
Oh I can only imagine how gut wrenching it would feel to wait, all the while thinking you've met Mr. Right, when in reality he's a total douche who only held out long enough to get in your pants.
It's all a crap shoot, waiting does NOT guarantee a man won't dump you, you could be another notch on his belt, even after you spent all that time together. 

One hump, then the dump can happen whether it's the 1st date or the 30th, just as STD's can as well.
Waiting to have sex isn't going to keep you from getting an STD, the only things that can prevent STD's are condoms & abstinence. 

To the OP, do what you want to do, if you want to have sex on the 1st date, make sure to use protection & have a great time.
None of that fake porn star sex acting either, be your authentic self & have fun, which can be awkward the 1st time.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Very true !! The world would be pretty boring if we were all the same.... Though I'm still going to say... even with what you said here... it's still another reason to not jump in bed too quick ...to at least give a little time to sort that out...
> 
> I guess it will sort itself out when she holds her boundary... I am wondering though WorkingOnMe... you mentioned triggers / insecurities... Do you have some in relation a woman holding out ?? Just trying to understand the male mind in this... as all I see is a man who can't keep his fly zipped & his priority is pleasure.
> 
> Does some men NEED the woman to show sexual interest ...and quickly - by the 3rd date to feel wanted -or this triggers something in them??


Men adapted the games which where being played. Women were stretching men out that they friendzones for dates and free dinners... So men instituted a 3 dates rule to ensure their time and money is not wasted by someone who just wants a free ride...



SimplyAmorous said:


> I've read some situations online where the women would pull back the guys jeans and look to see if he is hard, if not, she wouldn't go out again with him.. sounds so cruel to me personally but (or maybe she was looking at size !) -maybe she NEEDS and feeds on his sexual attraction to THAT extent ...I don't know!


Why would he be hard if they weren't engaging in the act or on the way to it.



SimplyAmorous said:


> OR (as I am assuming)....do you really just see these type of women as a pure waste of time and effort....no insecurities at play.
> 
> If I am asking too much... ignore me.


They are players in the "game" which makes up a large percentage of the competitive and brutal dating game.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

treyvion said:


> What about the "power view" of withholders? Like lady of the lake? We were discussing "power view", and some people were overly swelling their ego's from having a value system in which they know they will not meet the needs of the ones they are in a relationship with.


That one was quite proud of manipulating men by feigning sexual interest. Malicious power-tripping. 



Simply Amorous said:


> Well those men were dumb-asses if they could't read her character by then...


Might as well say the same thing about Ted Bundy's victims. 

People get away with shaming victims of sexual manipulation because sex is so easy to shame people over. Shame on you for having sexual desires a manipulator can exploit. Dumb ass. 

A girl without scruples learns by puberty how to manipulate and logically she has thousands of interactions to hone that skill by the time she is majority age. Every day she is at school is a day of practice. All the inter-school events, the shopping mall, the roller skating arena, municipal swimming pool, etc.

There are very few malicious predators like that whereas everyone else is sincere, so she has vastly more experience in conning her victims than they have dealing with the likes of her. Blaming her targets is wrong. 


In good spirit, SA. Don't take this wrong.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's a long story involving a 2 year virgin girlfriend who effed a guy at a party. My first experience with infidelity.
> 
> I was your husband SA. Except my patience was rewarded by her giving her wonderful gift to a football player one drunken night.


Thank you for answering WorkingOnMe.... Oh my... 2 yrs ...to have THAT HAPPEN ....I can surely understand the WHY's now... that you'd be damned sure that would* never* happen again to you....

I figure there is always a reason  behind why we feel as strongly as we do... I have my own reasons for feeling as I did (in relation to what I seen happen to my own Mother)....our younger years leave a tremendous impression on us...and your 1st love... like that Rod Stewart song... *"The 1st cut is the deepest"*... Tremendous betrayal from one who spoke of values...she was definitely "playing" as you called it. 

I would think very very low of your 1st GF... Hope you kicked her to the curb !


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wiserforit said:


> Might as well say the same thing about Ted Bundy's victims.
> 
> People get away with shaming victims of sexual manipulation because sex is so easy to shame people over. Shame on you for having sexual desires a manipulator can exploit. Dumb ass.
> 
> ...


Well I am *always *for the Nice Guy/ the good Guy...who has those good intentions....over any manipulator...so I would not disagree here.....we need to watch out for ourselves...we have to be cunning in this way.....I recently did a post on just how I DO feel such manipulators are by far...the WORST in this "game" of cat & mouse .....on this thread >> 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...gh-maintenance-vs-low-maintenance-mean-8.html



> * Simplyamorous said*: I feel if you are acting with respect....showing decent character to another...as many good men do...you DO deserve respect in return...doesn't mean you will get it ... not with many in this world today! This subject is about High Maintenance women...
> 
> Unfortunately - some men allow themselves to be *used* and *abused* by such women, especially if they are HOT .....why do they do this ...they are just enabling such women....dump these broads with the waving 's of manipulative "ME ME ME" behavior....but I still feel women are more the monsters in this ... that's just my view...
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

treyvion said:


> Men adapted the games which where being played. Women were stretching men out that they friendzones for dates and free dinners... So men instituted a 3 dates rule to ensure their time and money is not wasted by someone who just wants a free ride...


 All I can tell you is ... I am not this type of person, I don't condone that behavior and if I was single today, I would INSIST on paying my own way - until I KNEW I was into that guy...cause I feel it is very wrong to use anyone for anything... I respect people who have good intentions.. 

Of course this happens, but ya know...it's very unfortunate. I think we all ought to teach our children a better way. 



> Why would he be hard if they weren't engaging in the act or on the way to it.


 I think they was on the way to do it... she looked BEFORE they started the foreplay... I can't remember all the details, I was just reading many articles about casual sex...it's all foreign to me...I was curious and I found some things disturbing... but hey, that's the world we live in...

I think it's disgusting when men & women F*** around, then go off putting each other down, on to the next lay...her making fun of his D!ck size, it's like these people who exchanged fluids hate each other.. I don't like to see sex cheapened like that. That's just how I feel. 



> They are players in the "game" which makes up a large percentage of the competitive and brutal dating game.


I know and I don't want my own daughter to be naive in any way -- My MOTHER was ...rather pathetically at that...and I got to watch her self destruct getting involved with manipulative users who (now that I understand this)...used that "Power view" over her... it took her down a path to hell...and she never believed in Love again.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> It's all a crap shoot, waiting does NOT guarantee a man won't dump you, you could be another notch on his belt, even after you spent all that time together.


Well, as the king his own self said there ain't nothing in this whole wide world foolproof 'cept Coupe de Villes and hookers. However, waiting lowers your risk. If a man is trying to pump and dump a woman, a first date pump is optimum. If he has to wait weeks, months, or years, the odds are very high that he will lose interest and move on to greener pastures.



> Waiting to have sex isn't going to keep you from getting an STD, the only things that can prevent STD's are condoms & abstinence.


Again, we're not talking about guarantees, only odds. If you have sex with one person in your life, your odds of getting an STD are substantially lower than if you have sex with 100 people.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> It's all a crap shoot, waiting does NOT guarantee a man won't dump you, you could be another notch on his belt, even after you spent all that time together.


Does finishing college, getting a university degree guarantee that you would get your dream career and work in an environment that would not only be financially but emotionally fulfilling?
No.
But it increases the odds, greatly.
Did Mark Zuckerberg finish Havard?
No.
But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he started Facebook.
Does that mean that anyone can do exactly what he did , and have the same results?
No. The evidence suggest otherwise.

Waiting does not guarantee ANYTHING. Nothing in life is guaranteed ,except death.
Waiting , just like finishing college and university increases your odds of getting *YOUR wants *fulfilled.

BTW, Condom use does not protect against herpes.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> BTW, Condom use does not protect against herpes.


Nor HPV. 80% of women my age have HPV. That would make me really hesitate to jump in now like I did 22 years ago.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Nor HPV. 80% of women my age have HPV. That would make me really hesitate to jump in now like I did 22 years ago.


Man I'm so glad that I'm not in that dating game anymore.
I remember how back then, how we didn't have a care in the world except if the girl got pregnant.

Not so now.
Its scary!


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

I was in my early 20s when I met my husband. Like I posted above, we had sex on the first date. Have you ever met a certain person that you just had an unbelievable attraction to and just knew that if you ever got the chance you would f__k their brains out? That's the way I felt about my now husband. And, that is exactly what I did. I've asked him before if he ever thought less of me because I had sex with him on the first date, he told me not at all. I realize he could just be saying that so as not to hurt my feelings, but I honestly don't think he is. We have always had a very passionate attraction. If I could go back and do things over, I wouldn't change a thing. I would still sleep with him on the first date! Like I said, we've been married 27 years, so it obviously worked for us.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't think it's a great idea. It's like opening up all your Christmas presents in November...you ruin all the suspense and tension and fun! You can never get that time back; I personally would want to savor it. Plus having sex too early can cloud judgment.

DH and I waited 5 months. There was no way in hell I ever would have slept with him on the first date, even though I thought he was smoking hot and vice versa. Now that we're married, we go at it all the time, 5-7x per week.


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## Strongncuddly (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't have any problem with having sex on the first date. If both are mutually attracted to one another and are adults, i say go for it and enjoy one another. I have had some great relationships with women whom iv'e slept with the first night. As long as it's done respectfully. As well as one night stands where both people simply have sex because they want to with no intentions of drama or commitment. 

I have always had a very high sex drive and so i usually also use more "adult" orientated dating sites to meet people with the same interests.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Does finishing college, getting a university degree guarantee that you would get your dream career and work in an environment that would not only be financially but emotionally fulfilling?
> No.
> But it increases the odds, greatly.
> Did Mark Zuckerberg finish Havard?
> ...


We're talking about sex & 1st dates, not whether or not going to college or Harvard is going to make you the next CEO of FB.
Whatever YOUR experience is with waiting to have sex is just that, YOUR experience, so who are you to tell anyone else otherwise.
In both of our posts, we BOTH stated there are no guarantees in life, but guess what YOUR wants are not the same as others.
In fact, your attitude it seems like sex shaming to me, that a grown adult, should not have sex outside of a marriage or a relationship.
Guess what, not everyone desires a relationship, but they more than likely desire having sex with another person.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> We're talking about sex & 1st dates, not whether or not going to college or Harvard is going to make you the next CEO of FB.


He was talking about odds. You disagree that a college degree increases the odds of a high income?



> Whatever YOUR experience is with waiting to have sex is just that, YOUR experience, so who are you to tell anyone else otherwise.


I didn't see anything in his posts that made recommendations. He was simply acknowledging odds. For women, the odds of a man wanting to pump and dump her go down with every day/week/month that they wait.



> In both of our posts, we BOTH stated there are no guarantees in life, but guess what YOUR wants are not the same as others.
> In fact, your attitude it seems like sex shaming to me, that a grown adult, should not have sex outside of a marriage or a relationship.
> Guess what, not everyone desires a relationship, but they more than likely desire having sex with another person.


I don't know where your defensiveness comes from. Everyone will acknowledge that some adults are interested in casual sex. But the topic of this thread isn't about whether casual sex is good or bad. It's about whether casual sex is likely to lead to a long term relationship.

If you prefer one night stands, that's OK with me. But don't pretend like there can't possibly be any negative consequences in terms of establishing a long term relationship.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> He was talking about odds. You disagree that a college degree increases the odds of a high income?
> 
> 
> I didn't see anything in his posts that made recommendations. He was simply acknowledging odds. For women, the odds of a man wanting to pump and dump her go down with every day/week/month that they wait.
> ...


More sex shaming?
This is getting ridiculous now, especially since you've just tried to shame me regarding a ONS, which oddly enough I have not posted about in this thread.
Hmmm, seems like you're trying to make a connection where there is none. 
When it comes to sex, I'm not going to get my feelings hurt by some random person on the Internet, so FAIL. 
Defensiveness? 
Wow, talk about trying to make a leap. 
Where are you people coming up with this stuff?
It's so tiresome & pedantic when people do that.
I'm not going to go line by line to defend my post because it's especially tedious when people just have to post when someone actually has a different opinion from them.
"Gasp, someone posted something in the thread I didn't agree with, I MUST post my retort right NOW & let them know why their opinion is wrong!!"
See, you & CM both did that.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Laila8 said:


> Plus having sex too early can cloud judgment.


Wanted to put that first as something I might agree with as a possibility.



> I don't think it's a great idea. It's like opening up all your Christmas presents in November...you ruin all the suspense and tension and fun! You can never get that time back; I personally would want to savor it.


I don't like analogies in discussions like this because they are just too simplistic and if you like the suspense and tension, you can just say that without an analogy.

If the suspense and tension is better than sex, then people would never have sex. They would also wait another five months each time to savor that wonderful suspense and tension again, looking back on how much better it was than sex. You said you can't get that time back and the fact is you can. Just stop having sex. 

So the fact people start having sex in the first place and furthermore don't keep going back to five months of wonderful suspense and tension between sessions tells me they like sex better. 

I agree that it creates tension, but that can cut both ways. It can backfire with too much pressure and expectations about what is supposed to happen. 

Not trying to change your mind. More that I think people pile as many rationalizations as they can on top of what are different core reasons.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Wanted to put that first as something I might agree with as a possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great observation. Backfire like holding off and building tension while your boyfriend (husband to be) relieves his with an old flame?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Great observation. Backfire like holding off and building tension while your boyfriend (husband to be) relieves his with an old flame?


I have seen that right here on TAM.

Personally I have also seen my room-mate in college, an All-American stud horse who couldn't get it up when the time finally came. They worked it out, but it was pretty clearly the pressure from over-hyping something that isn't such a big deal. 

Another fellow on the team had very different expectations from his wife and it was just a miserable experience for both of them. He was a schmuck, and took up with on of our groupies who was known for multiple orgasms/squirting. They got divorced pretty quickly after that little spectacle.


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Great observation. Backfire like holding off and building tension while your boyfriend (husband to be) relieves his with an old flame?


I suppose it could also backfire having sex on the first date and then marrying that person, when, after marriage, she ignores you on holidays, puts you through a dry spell, and doesn't want to try new things sexually. Waiting was the right choice for me, and I would do it again if I had to.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Laila8 said:


> I suppose it could also backfire having sex on the first date and then marrying that person, when, after marriage, she ignores you on holidays, puts you through a dry spell, and doesn't want to try new things sexually. Waiting was the right choice for me, and I would do it again if I had to.


Lol I love newly weds.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

People don't really date where I live. It's not a thing.

3 dates in? First date? Don't think it matters, or anyway, I wouldn't get involved with anyone to whom it mattered. I have sex when I feel like it, not before and not after.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

IT depends on the person, and on the circumstances. Go with your gut.
I usually like to go on about ten dates before taking it to the physical level. Get into the "in love" feeling, so the bedding can be more toward "making love" than "having sex". I like to know that the guy doesn't see me only as a piece of meat, but likes me for myself and my personality. The emotional connection should be formed before having sex. My longest relationship ( not this current one ) started with 3 months heavy dating and emotional bonding before having sex.
But, I also went out with a handsome co-worker for dinner. We clicked, and I felt so safe with him that I could already trust him. The evening ended with us at his place, rolling onto the sheets. The relationship lasted three years, and it was a beautiful relationship with many good memories.
So, I wouldn't generalize. Go with your feeling. Observe the personality of the guy you're dating, and ask questions about his principles. With a good intuition, you'll know if it's best to be spontaneous and go for it, or let him court you and make him mad with desire.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Phenix70 said:


> More sex shaming?
> This is getting ridiculous now, especially since you've just tried to shame me regarding a ONS, which oddly enough I have not posted about in this thread.
> Hmmm, seems like you're trying to make a connection where there is none.
> When it comes to sex, I'm not going to get my feelings hurt by some random person on the Internet, so FAIL.
> ...


 Is your post not belittling / shaming to those who hold a difference of opinion? 

It is very obvious the shaming goes both ways... the girls who wait get called Prudes, archaic, asked if they are living in the 1920's/ 1940's, they get put down to, make fun of, dumped...but who is doing that dumping...YOUR TYPE Phenix70... so I guess it all depends on what sort of MAN a girl is looking for... it's always came down to this for me...I wanted a Gentleman...who does CARE. 

What bothers me personally is that fewer and fewer men today hold these older fashioned views... they are dying a slow death....and as with anything in life.. our society / peer pressure so often shapes our young people...their morality/ their values...so less and less of those type men are around for my dear daughter growing up.. 

So I am encouraged when I see Posts like CM and PHTlump's... gives me a little hope...

2 camps here....but more so in favor of your lifestyle...so why be offended ... We are in the minority nowadays.. with parents handing out the birth control at age 15 and saying "Just be safe honey".. 

*1*. Those who see nothing wrong with Casual Sex... and feel engaging it it BEFORE the emotional can lead to lasting love... (and it DOES sometimes..would never deny it - as evidenced by the answers on this thread!)....though I am going to say these couples BEAT THE ODDS! ...would really be interested in some statistics on this one.

*2.* And those who are more Romantic and believe waiting for the emotional is in their best interests. for lasting love. 

If you googled this question (which I did), you will find endless articles favoring YOUR view - and as expected...they will take Pop shots at those who hold "the waiting" view... so it goes both ways... 



Here is the position of AskMen.com... I would think this is a reputable site...devoted to being a better man... but as in anything.. people will be offended with what they say too. 



> First-Date Sex: Why You Should Pass - AskMen
> 
> "It’s quite an anticlimax to get to know each other after you’ve already had sex."
> 
> ...


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Simply Amorous, you know NOTHING about my lifestyle, but thanks anyway for making assumptions that you have. 
So since it seems that you & others aren't getting it, I will spell it out. It's that attitude that I mean is pedantic, NOT waiting to have sex.
Assuming you know about someone's personal life or sexual choices, then making disparaging comments based on those assumptions is tiresome.
Instead of assuming, people need to ask.
No wonder there are so many issues today, especially sexual ones, people just assume things, without communicating, which is asking questions, NOT making statements as if they are facts. 
As for your comment about people like my type doing the dumping, I'm a woman, not a man, so I haven't dumped a man for having or not having sex with me. 

For the record, sex shaming is when someone attempts to shame a women for being sexual, as if her choices somehow affect that person. 
Which is what PHT tried to do with his comment about ONS.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Phenix70 said:


> Simply Amorous, you know NOTHING about my lifestyle, but thanks anyway for making assumptions that you have.
> So since it seems that you & others aren't getting it, I will spell it out. It's that attitude that I mean is pedantic, NOT waiting to have sex.
> Assuming you know about someone's personal life or sexual choices, then making disparaging comments based on those assumptions is tiresome.
> 
> ...


That's a new word for me *pedantic * - Looked that up >>

Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules:

So you see me as Narrow minded on this...why thank you.. wouldn't you classify yourself on the other end of the spectrum as me ... Can we at least admit this much? 

And you have something very wrong... I'm all for having sex.. .Oh yes, greatest pleasure God has bestowed to men & women... love the subject, could write a book on it even...I just feel there is 
*a season* for such beauty.....

That's fine..I will agree to disagree with you. 

We are different, but I am entitled to my opinion just as you are yours...

You are talking about people ASSUMING things without communicating ...Hey, I am here and ready to communicate... Tell me what I got wrong ...besides your gender ...you mean you aren't for sleeping on the 1st date? So you do tie the emotional in sex ??

If you are proud of your position, be proud of it...it's your life, it's your story... 

I simply don't feel it is the BEST action to take if the woman is looking for *lasting love*/ commitment ... too many men conduct their lifestyles with their D!ck.. especially in their youth with 10 X more testosterone running through their veins, they are not thinking of the future but the immediate gratification...it's a gamble... some will say ANYTHING to get a woman in bed... That's my position. 

If you are woman and this is not a problem for you...it's your life...Those things mattered to me a great deal... so I acted accordingly, I wanted Lasting, I wanted Marriage, a man who would never leave his children.. You simply can't know all this on a 1st date.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> That's a new word for me *pedantic * - Looked that up >>
> 
> Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules:
> 
> ...


Hey SA, you know I love ya, but this sounds an awful lot like you are saying women who give it up quickly aren't marriage material...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

samyeagar said:


> Hey SA, you know I love ya, but this sounds an awful lot like you are saying women who give it up quickly aren't marriage material...


You are going to get a lot of likes on your post there Samyeagar - I predict it.

Well my husband wouldn't think so.. sorry if that offends, but then again he would likely get called a BOY for NOT trying to get into their pants by women who wanted it.. 

Listen... to me, it's a hell of a gamble ...how the hell can anyone KNOW the character of another on a 1st date....how can lasting even be in the brain when you are shedding your clothes...with someone you have only known for a few hours.. 

Yes, I am narrow minded... I think it's the dumbest thing a woman can do if she wants something lasting.

If she just wants HOT Banging dripping clothes ripped off SEX for a night, not expecting a whole lot in return (other than pleasure in that moment).. won't be devastated if /when he doesn't call for the next date....sure it can see it. ....That is her thrill and "worth the ride" ...for HER.. 

I would be devastated, pi$$ed off, and regret that. This is what I mean about "living according"... I believe a man of worth needs some Testing...absolutely..and a Man of worth is UP for that challenge. (Man of worth = the marrying type.)


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Hey SA, you know I love ya, but this sounds an awful lot like you are saying women who give it up quickly aren't marriage material...


I think SA was very explicit in her post.
She simply stated what HER values were.

I can't understand why people get offended when other people's values clash with theirs.
Everyone's free to state THEIR values according to the OP of this thread. She was asking for different opinions.
If people don't like being challenged about their personal values on an open forum they should just come out publicly and say so.

Then those who are willing to discuss the pros and cons will simply not respond to their post.

IMO, people who don't like being challenged about what they believe are not sure about what they actually believe.

That's why there are so many double standards in sex.
Everybody wants to eat their cake and have it.

If you are confident about your beliefs, then absolutely nothing anyone else says can ruffle you personally.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are going to get a lot of likes on your post there Samyeagar - I predict it.
> 
> Well my husband wouldn't think so.. sorry if that offends, but then again he would likely get called a BOY for NOT trying to get into their pants by women who wanted it..
> 
> ...


The funny thing is SA, for myself, I pretty much agree with you on this. It does take time to get to know someone, to build that trust, to see if they are long term relationship material for you. And you are right, sleeping with someone after knowing them for just a few hours does cloud that ability to even begin.

One thing I think we should clarify here though is that first date does NOT equal knowing someone for just a few hours. A ONS club hookup most likely is knowing someone for a few hours, or less, but many of the posters here, myself included who have talked about sleeping with their long term partner on the first or second date knew them for more than a few hours before it happened.

Yes, I have slept with two women on the first date, but I had known them as more than just acquaintences for an extended period of time before said first date, and they turned into long term relationships. My STBW and I spent more time in our first month getting to know each other before our first date, and sleeping together on our second, than most people do in six months or a year.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> *If you are confident about your beliefs, then absolutely nothing anyone else says can ruffle you personally.*


I've had people challenge me Religiously and you know what, I LISTENED...I enjoyed it !! ... I considered their side...their reasoning...even when it assaulted my own beliefs at the time...I loved the challenge....it stirred me to learn/ study further...and in time....I came out on another side.... so my beliefs HAVE changed over the yrs in some areas.... I am OPEN to that..I try to be. 

Though some things are resolved for me..

Once I even read about "Juggalos" on a Forum after talking to a friends son -telling me his IS one..... to better understand him as a Teen.... he was heading down a dark path.. had a best friend stabbed in the chest & died.....he was very very hard to get to open up, but he opened up to me.... so that meant something. He must have sensed I wouldn't judge him. 

To connect with another you must take the time to understand where they are coming from... not resort to name calling...and just write them off, this shuts everyone down..... we live in a world of diversity... every one of us is going to have a different answer to what is wrong with our world today. 

On the top of my list is how sex has been cheapened in society..SEX IS HUGE.... if it was such a small insignificant thing, then why is it worthy of divorce when married to share with another, why does it rip the hearts out of others when we share our body with another...it's the biggest dagger of all... besides the emotional we share.

Yet while single, we throw it around like it's nothing...I don't understand this, I can't reason this in my brain.. I can try.. but I am not there... Do I want to be there ?

Really it's a legitimate question for me.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are going to get a lot of likes on your post there Samyeagar - I predict it.
> 
> *Well my husband wouldn't think so.. sorry if that offends, but then again he would likely get called a BOY for NOT trying to get into their pants by women who wanted it.. *Listen... to me, it's a hell of a gamble ...how the hell can anyone KNOW the character of another on a 1st date....how can lasting even be in the brain when you are shedding your clothes...with someone you have only known for a few hours..
> 
> ...


And in that, I am a lot like your husband. I had many many opportunities to get into womens pants. I've been broken up with because I wouldn't. I have only known three women in my life that I felt the emotional connection with leading to the desire to have sex with. I have made love to all three of them.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

justdance4me said:


> Just what the topic says. Yay or Nay to sex on the first date? And I don't mean teenagers, I mean 30 something, consenting adults with good jobs, in the heat of passion - obviously sexually attracted and find a connection.
> 
> Also can a long lasting relationship leading to marriage come from it or is it doomed from the start?
> 
> Would love to hear opinions!


Well, I hate to say this... but when I was younger and stupid... If I went out with a girl and decided I really didn't care if I got a second date with her or not... I was more likely to press her to have sex. 

When I had my first date with my wife... I knew I liked her.. a LOT and I didn't want to do anything to blow a 2nd date with her. So, I kissed her and that was it... Didn't even try to get to 2nd base.

Turned out... we were probably 6 or 8 weeks into dating before we made love. SEEMED like 6 years back then..

Girls should hold out. If that guy is really interested... he'll wait... If not.. he'll move on and you won't feel so bad about it...

Holding out will save a lot of heart ache...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

samyeagar said:


> *One thing I think we should clarify here though is that first date does NOT equal knowing someone for just a few hours. *A ONS club hookup most likely is knowing someone for a few hours, or less, but many of the posters here, myself included who have talked about sleeping with their long term partner on the first or second date knew them for more than a few hours before it happened.


 This is true, I have never had a Long distance relationship, but this has become pretty common today -in our dating world.... Plenty of skyping, might have even done cyber sex 1st !...Not sure what I'd classify that ....and these couples could have talked more in a span of time being apart over some do in real life... and Yes, an emotional connection can flourish in that...

When I said what I say, I had JUST meeting "didn't know each other from Adam" type thoughts in my head. See, nothing in our world is "Black and white" - many shades of grey.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've had people challenge me Religiously and you know what, I LISTENED...I enjoyed it !! ... I considered their side...their reasoning...even when it assaulted my own beliefs at the time...I loved the challenge....it stirred me to learn/ study further...and in time....I came out on another side.... so my beliefs HAVE changed over the yrs in some areas.... I am OPEN to that..I try to be.


There was a time that I had no problem with casual sex and so on.
But as I matured things changed for me.
I no longer hold those views because my values have changed.
That doesn't mean that people who believe in that lifestyle are wrong.
If it works for them and they enjoy it, lol, I can't tell them differently.
But it can no longer work for me and I have very solid reasons why.
I've lived and learned.

Sexual behaviours are never simple, because sex is not an isolated act as people sometimes say.
Everything is connected.
Sometimes these sexual behaviours lie along certain clusters and comprise compensatory behaviours.
One should try to recognize the difference.

Western societies have a mostly negative view about sex.
In Eastern societies and religions, their attitude to sex is diametrically opposite to those in the West.
In western religion sex is non existent except for what is prohibited.
In Eastern religions, sex is an integral part of their religious philosophy, hence the 1000 yr old literary works like 
_" Karma Sutra "_ and the _" Perfumed Garden."_

These are books I own, have read and understood.

I had an experience when I was single.
My cousin was in an accident and needed blood urgently.
I decided to donate some of my blood.
At the clinic before the procedure, a nurse asked me some questions in a private room. If I had any recent illness etc. Negative I responded.
Then she asked me how many sexual partners I had during the last six weeks.
I answered honestly and said three.
She then raised her eyebrows and said that I didn't qualify to donate blood because I was within the range of a " high risk " donor.
Yes, they refused my blood.
She said " safe sex " or condom use didn't matter here, because my behaviour was risky.
I offered to have my blood tested, she referred me to another department and I did have the test.
Weeks later I received the test results it was clean.
But what that nurse told me stuck in my mind.
She said it didn't matter if I practised " safe sex." My behaviour had put me in a high risk category and I need to take responsibility for my actions.

This has formed part of my overall experience. It has helped form some of my present views.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I think we're stuck in a world where many people refuse to recognize the physical and psychological differences between men and women. If I had a nickel for every time someone argued that women are simply men with breasts, I would be a rich man.


Both men and women are simply apes with an enlarged cerebral cortex. How many nickels do you get for that one?

We are 98% similar to our primate ancestors. Just how much do want to make of a single chromosome?

If we look to these ancestors, we see any number of configurations. We see the alpha male with his harem, but usually his ability to stay on top is limited. We see pair bonding. We see polygamy from both males and females.

I am not moralizing, just responding to this stereotype that sexual women are untouchable while sexual men are somehow more natural. This is clearly false. Witness here the number of woman who are quite up front that we too have sexual drives. Witness the number of men who clearly want more than to stick their d*cks in every passing vagina.



PHTlump said:


> You've missed the point. From a strictly biological perspective, sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. Men can afford to play a numbers game. It is physically possible for a man to have hundreds, or even thousands, of children. He can impregnate a woman, then move on to another woman. Even without vetting the women as potential mothers, odds are good that several of his children will live to adulthood and pass his genes on.
> 
> Women don't have that luxury. The physical limit on children from a single woman is probably around 20. And if she abandons one, he will probably die. So, in order for a woman to pass her genes on, she must spend her resources to ensure that some of her children live. She doesn't have as many strikes as the man does.


So is your position that only women are mammals, invested in the survival of their offspring, while men are salmon leaving them to swim upstream? No man cares to take in interest in the raising or development of his children?

Men may have billions of sperm, but most won't make it near their target, let alone successfully fertilize it. And just as men can impregnate more than one woman, women can be impregnated by more than one man. We do not derive our sexual mores from these biological realities.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

hambone said:


> Girls should hold out. If that guy is really interested... he'll wait... If not.. he'll move on and you won't feel so bad about it...
> 
> Holding out will save a lot of heart ache...


The assumption here is that women only want sex in the context of an LTR --and that they *should* only want this. It also assumes that maintaining this moral obligation is entirely the woman's responsibility.

If waiting is the correct thing to do, why is it only women that bear all responsibility?

If not waiting is okay, why do we continue to shame women for failing to wait?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

always_alone said:


> The assumption here is that women only want sex in the context of an LTR --and that they *should* only want this. It also assumes that maintaining this moral obligation is entirely the woman's responsibility.
> 
> If waiting is the correct thing to do, why is it only women that bear all responsibility?
> 
> If not waiting is okay, why do we continue to shame women for failing to wait?


And you're making assumptions about me. And, you're jumping to conclusions!

Re-read the OP.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> The funny thing is SA, for myself, I pretty much agree with you on this. It does take time to get to know someone, to build that trust, to see if they are long term relationship material for you. And you are right, sleeping with someone after knowing them for just a few hours does cloud that ability to even begin.
> 
> *One thing I think we should clarify here though is that first date does NOT equal knowing someone for just a few hours. A ONS club hookup most likely is knowing someone for a few hours, or less, but many of the posters here, myself included who have talked about sleeping with their long term partner on the first or second date knew them for more than a few hours before it happened.*
> 
> *Yes, I have slept with two women on the first date, but I had known them as more than just acquaintences for an extended period of time before said first date, and they turned into long term relationships. My STBW and I spent more time in our first month getting to know each other before our first date, and sleeping together on our second, than most people do in six months or a year*.


Bingo, someone who gets it regarding a ONS & this thread. 
We share strikingly similar experiences, including my own marriage.
Thanks for sharing.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> More sex shaming?


You think that acknowledging that a pump and dump is more likely after sex on the first date than waiting weeks, months, or years for sex is shaming? I don't think that word means what you think it means.



> This is getting ridiculous now, especially since you've just tried to shame me regarding a ONS, which oddly enough I have not posted about in this thread.


Where? I was using a ONS as an example of casual sex. You seem to be very invested in casual sex and take exception to anyone who suggests that there could be any possible negative consequences to casual sex. Why is that?



> When it comes to sex, I'm not going to get my feelings hurt by some random person on the Internet, so FAIL.


FAIL? Are you fourteen? Or is English a second language?



> "Gasp, someone posted something in the thread I didn't agree with, I MUST post my retort right NOW & let them know why their opinion is wrong!!"
> See, you & CM both did that.


Do you know what "irony" means? You should look it up.

You jumped into a thread after a couple of posters suggested that there are pros and cons to any sexual strategy. You obviously can't handle that fact. For some reason, you need to believe that a strategy of casual sex can have absolutely no negative consequences. Well, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. But casual sex does, indeed, have negative consequences. I know that acknowledging reality makes me a bad guy. I can live with that.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Both men and women are simply apes with an enlarged cerebral cortex. How many nickels do you get for that one?


Just one nickel per claim would make me a very happy, and very rich man. Thanks.



> We are 98% similar to our primate ancestors. Just how much do want to make of a single chromosome?


There are lots of genes on a chromosome. Also, even the genes that exist on the X chromosome are activated differently in men and women. Women aren't just men with breasts.



> I am not moralizing, just responding to this stereotype that sexual women are untouchable while sexual men are somehow more natural. This is clearly false. Witness here the number of woman who are quite up front that we too have sexual drives. Witness the number of men who clearly want more than to stick their d*cks in every passing vagina.


No one has ever argued that women should naturally have no sex drive. But what is clearly false is the belief that human beings are the one species of animal on the planet (with a distinct male and female) where the sexual behavior of the males and females ended up being exactly the same. Every other animal on the planet has sexual roles and strategies that depend on the animal's sex. But, somehow, people didn't get the memo? I'm just not buying it.



> So is your position that only women are mammals, invested in the survival of their offspring, while men are salmon leaving them to swim upstream? No man cares to take in interest in the raising or development of his children?


No. I'm saying that, biologically speaking, the options available to men and women vary. Therefore, it's perfectly rational to think that the strategies and instincts that evolved will also vary. If you think that women taking the lead on raising children throughout human history, and throughout most of the animal kingdom, is the result of a patriarchal conspiracy that spanned every culture on every continent on the planet, I'll just say that I disagree. I think there are some biological reasons for the ubiquitous practice.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Women aren't just men with breasts.


For some primates the father takes the primary caregiving role. The mother will only nurse; the father will carry and protect the infant through the day.


No one has ever said that women are men with breasts or that men are women with penises. Just that the world is not as uniform or as predetermined as you would have us believe.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

hambone said:


> And you're making assumptions about me. And, you're jumping to conclusions!
> 
> Re-read the OP.


Am I? Weren't you saying that women should wait and it would save heartache?

Didn't you also say that you only thought about waiting when the woman meant something to you?

It would clearly be misguided to *expect* a long lasting relationship from a night of sex, but is it so very wrong-headed to think two mature adults *can* develop a relationship from that basis, especially if they remain honest about their intentions and feelings?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Am I? Weren't you saying that women should wait and it would save heartache?
> 
> Didn't you also say that you only thought about waiting when the woman meant something to you?
> 
> It would clearly be misguided to *expect* a long lasting relationship from a night of sex, but is it so very wrong-headed to think two mature adults *can* develop a relationship from that basis, especially if they remain honest about their intentions and feelings?


Firstly the average man is cultured to apply the principle of delayed gratification to their personal relationships, when selecting a long term partner. 

The general rule is that anything good is worth waiting for.

The question is how long is he prepared to wait?
This answer would vary from one man to another, but is best negotiated between a man and woman.The woman being the
" gatekeeper " should feel absolutely no pressure to do anything with her body to please anybody other than herself.

The contradiction comes in when men are shamed for not wanting to have an emotional ,committed relationship with a woman who offers them sex outside the boundaries of such a relationship.

However, that is a man's prerogative.
If he only wants sex with you , then he only wants sex.
If you only want sex from him , then you only want sex.

_Girl meets boy on Wednesday , they go out on Saturday night, she goes back to his place , they have sex. Boy does not call girl for the next few days. She gets upset when she sees boy chatting with another girl and realizes that boy is also banging her next door neighbour. She calls boy and starts to argue, boy says that they were never " exclusive " girl begins to feel foolish and used._

Right there is where the concept of waiting comes in. It takes time to figure out what each person wants from the other.
Be honest and stop creating problems.

It is a woman's prerogative to use ANY criteria she deems fit, to determine which man she allows to stick any appendage of his body into any orifice on her body, and under what conditions Whether it is lack of commitment, looks , build , skin colour , intelligence , smell , wealth , emotional sensitivity , career or any combination of character or physical attributes he may posses.

But privilege presupposes responsibility.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You think that acknowledging that a pump and dump is more likely after sex on the first date than waiting weeks, months, or years for sex is shaming? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
> 
> 
> Where? I was using a ONS as an example of casual sex. You seem to be very invested in casual sex and take exception to anyone who suggests that there could be any possible negative consequences to casual sex. Why is that?
> ...



In my original post, I responded to the OP, not to any one post in this thread.
But thanks for being the thread police, I didn't know you were a MOD.
Regarding the shaming, that was your attempt to shame me regarding ONS, which is odd since I didn't post anything about that. 
Hmmm, seems like you may have some issues regarding casual sex & seeing things that aren't there. 

Pot meet kettle, you have a habit of going into threads to tell posters why their opinions are wrong, then when the tables are turned on you, you then go into demeaning mode.
You use harsh & abrasive language to bully people to conform to your ideas & to try to get them to back down.
It's really no surprises since you just can't handle anyone having a differing opinion from you.
What difference does it make that I feel one way & you feel another?
You're not going to change my mind, so why so much vitriol? 
My posts were not to you, until you took it upon yourself to quote my post to CM, who I know can more than defend himself & his own position. 
What exactly is your deal? 
And why do you continue to keep attempting to twist my words?
It's kind of sad to see, especially since your personal opinions are your prerogative, just as my opinions are mine. 
But for some reason you just can't stop telling me that I'm wrong.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> In my original post, I responded to the OP, not to any one post in this thread.
> But thanks for being the thread police, I didn't know you were a MOD.


I'm not a mod. I'm just a guy who has trouble letting inanity pass without comment. You can consider it a personal failing of mine. Or, as you might be more inclined to say, "FAIL!!!11!!" 



> Regarding the shaming, that was your attempt to shame me regarding ONS, which is odd since I didn't post anything about that.


Again, I haven't posted anything to shame you. I acknowledged that using casual sex on the first date probably isn't the optimum strategy for securing a long-term commitment from one's partner. You interpreted that as an attempt at shaming. The fault doesn't lie in my post. It lies in your faulty inference.



> Pot meet kettle, you have a habit of going into threads to tell posters why their opinions are wrong, then when the tables are turned on you, you then go into demeaning mode.
> You use harsh & abrasive language to bully people to conform to your ideas & to try to get them to back down.
> It's really no surprises since you just can't handle anyone having a differing opinion from you.
> What difference does it make that I feel one way & you feel another?
> ...


I see you still have no concept of irony. Every single thing in the above quoted passage applies to you much more than to me. I was being helpful in this thread. The OP wanted to know if casual sex was an effective strategy for securing a long-term commitment. I would be doing the OP no favors if I presented an entirely one-sided argument in favor of casual sex. I think it would be much more helpful, and respectful to the OP, to allow both the pros and cons of casual sex to be presented. That way, the OP can make her own decision based on evidence from both sides.

Apparently, you disagree. You think that presenting the cons of casual sex is "sex shaming." You think that only the positive aspects of casual sex should be allowed in this thread. And when someone posts an opinion contrary to yours, you get increasingly shrill about it.

I have no problem with your affinity for casual sex. It doesn't affect me at all. I am not here to try to convince you that casual sex has any possible negative consequences. I am here to give information to the OP that she can use in her pursuit of sex and/or a relationship.

If you have any information on the effects of casual sex in pursuing a relationship (other than cognitive dissonance that can't accept any contrary opinions) I would love to hear it. You'll notice that I did not respond to any posts from the many people who posted that it worked out for them, or that they saw nothing wrong with it. I only responded to an inane post that suggested that we shouldn't allow any negative information about casual sex to be shared.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

PHT I'm starting to get the feeling you have a thing for me.
Because your responses to my posts are just too personal.
I don't know you why but for some reason you feel like attacking my posts, like they are a personal affront to you & your beliefs.
Why do you care so much?
It's the Internet, perhaps you need to take a step back from your computer. 

It's okay, we get it, casual sex just isn't to your taste.
But that doesn't mean that it's wrong for others to feel the opposite.
What's ironic to me is that are literally thousands of posts on TAM from people in LTR who can't get sex from their SO's & yet you want to condemn those who are seeking sex with someone they're not in a relationship with.
Why is that?
Their sex life had NO meaning to you but yet you're getting bent out if shape about something you have no personal experience with.
This isn't the first time you've followed me around in a thread.
What's next?
Will you start sending me PM's?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> PHT I'm starting to get the feeling you have a thing for me.
> Because your responses to my posts are just too personal.
> I don't know you why but for some reason you feel like attacking my posts, like they are a personal affront to you & your beliefs.
> Why do you care so much?
> It's the Internet, perhaps you need to take a step back from your computer.


I have already dealt with this. I'm not attacking you. You're simply inferring that I am. I can't help the way you feel. It seems that the only way I can make you feel better is to post that casual sex is the best sexual strategy for starting a long-term relationship. Well, I'm sorry. I not going to just make things up so that you will feel better. You're just not that important to me.

Besides, it's not like you've patented casual sex, have you? Why do you interpret any negative information about casual sex as a personal attack? It seems like you're entirely too invested in casual sex. I suggest you just take some time away from the sheets to get some perspective.



> It's okay, we get it, casual sex just isn't to your taste.
> But that doesn't mean that it's wrong for others to feel the opposite.


Quote any post I have made where I have said that someone's feelings are wrong.



> What's ironic to me is that are literally thousands of posts on TAM from people in LTR who can't get sex from their SO's & yet you want to condemn those who are seeking sex with someone they're not in a relationship with.
> Why is that?


These are two different issues. Sex in a marriage or LTR is different from casual sex on the first date. And again, I'm not condemning anyone.



> This isn't the first time you've followed me around in a thread.
> What's next?
> Will you start sending me PM's?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't flatter yourself. I hate to burst your bubble, but I have absolutely no memory of debating you before. I suggest you try a little experiment. Leave this thread and see if I follow you. Alternatively, you could try making rational postings. I tend to let those slide as well.

Actually, the lady doth protest too much, methinks. Perhaps you're simply making things up about my posts in order to pester me. That would certainly explain things, such as your irrational insistence that my posts acknowledging that casual sex has some drawbacks are personal attacks aimed at you.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Oh PHT, you've made my day.
I've never had someone troll me before, this is quite fun actually!
I'm sitting in the car, waiting for my husband to finish working & I've got all the time in the world to keep having a p*ssing contest with you.
Lets see what other zingers you can come up with, I'm waiting.
Maybe you can tell me how your POV is the only valid one, that I'm wrong because I'm just a woman who doesn't know her place.
Are you going to tell me to get back in the kitchen next?
Please enlighten me, I'm all "ears."

(Apologies to the OP, that this thread had gotten so derailed.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> It is a woman's prerogative to use ANY criteria she deems fit, to determine which man she allows to stick any appendage of his body into any orifice on her body, and under what conditions Whether it is lack of commitment, looks , build , skin colour , intelligence , smell , wealth , emotional sensitivity , career or any combination of character or physical attributes he may posses.
> 
> But privilege presupposes responsibility.


Absolutely! Just as it is a man's prerogative to decide that he doesn't want access to a particular orifice.

Women aren't the only gatekeepers, nor should they be expected to be. If he shouldn't be shamed for only wanting sex, then why should she?

Why do we always assume that the scenario is that she wants LTR and he doesn't? AND that she is going to expect him to be monogamous from the get-go, without ever trying to suss out what his intentions or feelings are?

Or are we to assume that all men will always lie about whether they are seeing other women and are only in it for a quick boff?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> absolutely! Just as it is a man's prerogative to decide that he doesn't want access to a particular orifice.
> 
> Women aren't the only gatekeepers, nor should they be expected to be. If he shouldn't be shamed for only wanting sex, then why should she?
> 
> ...


This^^^is correct.
[ Including your assumption in the last paragraph. At least most of the times.]


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yet while single, we throw it around like it's nothing...I don't understand this, I can't reason this in my brain.. I can try.. but I am not there... Do I want to be there ?
> 
> Really it's a legitimate question for me.


Think of it this way. You were married relatively young, weren't you? And even though you did wait some time (how long?), you did engage in some sexual activities -- and your own release.

But what if you didn't marry young? How long is a woman supposed to wait until she gets her sexual needs filled? 5 years? 10? 20? Should she remain a virgin if she doesn't find someone who wants to marry her (especially when only 29% of men even want to marry)? Should she just go for the first schmuck that comes along just to meet sexual needs?

Sex is huge because it is bonding, but it is also a very real need for both men and women? Is it so terrible that women just want to fill that need outside the context of an LTR? We have other options for other emotional needs. We totally give men a free pass for sleeping with women for just sex. Why shouldn't women exercise the same privilege?

Actually, plenty of women aren't even all that interested in an LTR.

Why should this be a problem? (Although it would be nice if more people would just be honest about where they're at in all of this.)


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> Oh PHT, you've made my day.
> I've never had someone troll me before, this is quite fun actually!
> I'm sitting in the car, waiting for my husband to finish working & I've got all the time in the world to keep having a p*ssing contest with you.


Well, you got me there. Yes, I must admit. My asserting that casual sex might not be the best strategy for establishing a LTR was just a thinly veiled personal attack on you. Yes, I've been waiting months, or even years, just to lure you to a thread with some negative posts on casual sex. And you took the bait! Oh happy day! I guess the game is up. Oh well.



> Lets see what other zingers you can come up with, I'm waiting.
> Maybe you can tell me how your POV is the only valid one, that I'm wrong because I'm just a woman who doesn't know her place.
> Are you going to tell me to get back in the kitchen next?
> Please enlighten me, I'm all "ears."
> ...


No, now that the game is up, I will adopt your obviously correct position. Casual sex is the bees' knees. It's the only sexual strategy that has absolutely no drawbacks. Are you nervous about being pumped and dumped? Don't be! Just try some casual sex. It can't possibly backfire. Are you looking to get married? Just cast a wide net with lots of casual sex and you'll land a high quality spouse with absolutely no problem at all. Have cancer, shortness of breath, high blood pressure, insomnia, or any other physical ailment? Casual sex can cure it. Does your car's engine need degreasing? Casual sex can do it.

I'm serious. There are absolutely no drawbacks to casual sex. Anyone who argues differently is both sex shaming and personally attacking Phenix70. The bastards.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Here's the bottom line: everybody has their own value system and that's that. If you think sex on a first date is cool.....do it. If you think remaining a virgin until your wedding night is cool.....remain so. To each their own. I understand that many people want to have sex without commitment. Many people aren't looking for a relationship and they get their needs met with those who are like minded. There's nothing wrong with that. I also understand people who wait until marriage to have sex. Many do so for religious or personal reasons and I respect that as well. We all have different comfort zones. 

I don't think one is better over the other for long term success. There are countless stories on here about couples who had sex on the first date and 10, 15, 20 years later are still together. Same for partners who were virgins. I don't think having sex early/not having sex early makes a difference relationship wise. A relationship is going to work out because both people want it to, communicate and care about the others needs.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> Think of it this way. You were married relatively young, weren't you? And even though you did wait some time (how long?), you did engage in some sexual activities -- and your own release.


 My boundary was intercourse... we DID engage in mutual masterbation, I never needed birth control and we had something NEW to bring to our wedding night.... I had no desire on this earth to be as pure as the driven snow - that would make having a boyfriend TORMENT ! 

Religionists and casual sex adherents have both tried to SHAME ME for what we did (because I referred to myself as a virgin- we have a unique story after the wedding).......had that entertaining discussion on a Christian sex forum once. ... With this , our Emotional connection grew and we didn't go stark raving MAd with tension .....so he'd have to run to a cold shower & me get it on with a dildo...how long... near 7 yrs. I wasn't going to have sex at age 15..and we got used to what we did. 

Someone earlier on this thread made a comment .... that what you haven't experienced, you don't know what you are missing ..WE can vouch for that ! Do teens need to have sex this early - they do NOT ! 

We were happy with what we had, satisfied, fulfilled. And we had sweet anticipation to what was coming. 



> But what if you didn't marry young? How long is a woman supposed to wait until she gets her sexual needs filled? 5 years? 10? 20? Should she remain a virgin if she doesn't find someone who wants to marry her (especially when only 29% of men even want to marry)? Should she just go for the first schmuck that comes along just to meet sexual needs?


 Honestly if I hadn't found a GOOD man by the time I was 21 -23...I am sure I would have relaxed my beliefs to some extent -or been praying real hard to meet someone special...*.but I DID want to marry young*..and I only wanted to give that to one special man.... I wanted to have kids young.... Maybe I was just lucky to find that sort of guy when I did.. cause I know noone else would have waited as long as him..... He never pushed me either....

Now if I had a great Boyfriend who was going MAD needing it..but I felt I was his one & only -he put a ring on my finger/ commitment ...I might have given in..... So long as I felt he was going to marry me ... Otherwise - I would have felt it was wrong, not the story I wanted for my life. (Just being honest here)



> Sex is huge because it is bonding, but it is also a very real need for both men and women? Is it so terrible that women just want to fill that need outside the context of an LTR? We have other options for other emotional needs. *We totally give men a free pass for sleeping with women for just sex*. Why shouldn't women exercise the same privilege?


 I DON'T give men that free pass... just because other women do, I am not one of them.... I even prayed to meet a guy who was a virgin... (He was 18 when we met).... I rejected the type that slept around... again, if I hit 25 yrs old and couldn't find me one who had the same values, I guess I'd be screwed , wouldn't I. 

I just felt when I was young, I had TIME on my side, so I used it wisely. I would never be happy being alone... and I would also NOT be happy sleeping with a man who walked away.. that is how I feel ...and deeply... so No, a dildo would be better for me over that situation.



> Actually, plenty of women aren't even all that interested in an LTR.


 Funny, I had a response to you , saying this same thing - that I never put on this thread yet - written last night ...Here is it....



always_alone said:


> The assumption here is that women only want sex in the context of an LTR --and that they *should* only want this.


Coming to this forum and reading the many attitudes of women has opened my eyes to the REAL Reality...that TRUE... many are NOT looking for long lasting relationships.. this is foreign to me personally... all of my friends in life -this was our aim... Guess I've been living under a rock. 

Seems the majority (men & women) want to experience life in all it's fullness single.. travel the world, experience Independence... date many before they settle down...some would not even consider Marriage on their "hope" list...but if they fall into LOVE, hey, that's OK too. 



> Why should this be a problem? (Although it would be nice if more people would just be honest about where they're at in all of this.)


 what you just said here *IS *the issue... isn't it ? If People were *MORE HONEST* from the get go, it would be less of a problem, but it's like that Billy Joel Song ... I find this the reality today... with more people than not...



> Honesty-Billy Joel - YouTube
> 
> If you search for tenderness
> It isn't hard to find
> ...





> Originally Posted by *always_alone*:
> 
> It also assumes that maintaining this moral obligation is entirely the woman's responsibility.


 The best case scenario is if BOTH sexes hold themselves accountable for their own behavior... LIVE what they believe...not putting the judgement on another -but holding their own boundary...in accordance with their own morality or values. I wouldn't project that on another -the fingers would be pointing back to myself.. ...what bothers me is so few have these - I am going to call it "Old fashioned" views today... so less and less men & women are able to be found.. Causal sex is the Norm and very praised, peer pressure forces it more so for our kids. 



> If waiting is the correct thing to do, why is it only women that bear all responsibility?


 We have a son in College who believes in waiting, not all men agree with the "Double standard"... Our 1st 3 sons do not. They hold themselves to the same standards as any woman...This is fair , isn't it? 



> If not waiting is okay, why do we continue to shame women for failing to wait?


 Why did the term "shaming" have to get thrown in this discussion.. can we call it a *preference* that fits and is in tune with one's personal beliefs, morals, and views on Sex & what it means to us as individuals...... those who hold the Romantic view believe in waiting for "the ONE"...they SEEK commitment, they WANT that emotional entanglement.... 

Why should a Romantic want to give it up to someone who believes in sleeping with a variety of people -and on the 1st date mind you (how many 1sts did they have ??)... if you both do this, you won't care... if this is not your lifestyle... you WILL [email protected]#$% 

This would greatly conflict with their own values and beliefs of what they want in a long term partner...which IS at the heart of this discussion. No shaming.... it's a preference. 

And I thank you for the asking Always_alone


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

SA, 

I respect your opinion on this greatly. Not only did you walk the walk, your husband did as well. You guys love each other and have a fantastic, sexual marriage. Not easy to achieve according to this board. I have no snark, I have no snicker, just admiration for a couple who were steadfast in their choice. In other words, a standard for both. 

As you well know, standards here oftentimes only apply to women. What grates my nerves to no end is when men say women should remain virgins while they themselves nail anything that moves, claim biology and cite pseudo science as the reasons they do.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> This^^^is correct.
> [ Including your assumption in the last paragraph. At least most of the times.]


Tangential question: why is it that you an SA can insinuate that most men are liars and predators with impunity, yet whenever I say anything remotely critical, I get branded a feminazi hyperprude who doesn't understand men?

Many men don't lie about their intentions. If they just want sex, they'll say so. If they're not looking for an LTR, they'll say so. Sometimes people just want to keep an open mind and sees what develops. Could be an LTR. Might not be.

Those who lie and misrepresent themselves are just despicable and selfish, IMO. It may be common, but it shows only a very low character.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> SA, I respect your opinion on this greatly. I really do. Not only did you walk the walk, your husband did and it sounds like your son does as well.
> 
> What grates my nerves to no end are when men say women should remain virgins while they themselves nail anything that moves. I can barely see anything they write since the screaming hypocrisy covers up any words stated.


Thank you - especially coming from you.. 

This will sound a little ridiculous.....but about a year ago I offered our oldest son $50 for him to take some time...reason it out - explaining WHY he feels women today...gravitate to Playboys who have all those notches on their belts over the GOOD guys like him - who will make a great husband & Father... It was an interesting read, even he gets why they do this. But yet he isn't changing who he is ...to get laid. He is a good looking catch, he just hasn't met the one who's knocked him off his chair yet. 

Given his beliefs, I have warned him I fear he may end up with a repressed Low driver...and to be very very careful...as I don't want to see him in some prison sexually after he marries...it's a gamble on both sides....now isn't it.



> *always_alone said*: Many men don't lie about their intentions. If they just want sex, they'll say so. If they're not looking for an LTR, they'll say so. Sometimes people just want to keep an open mind and sees what develops. Could be an LTR. Might not be.


Ya know... this reminds me...

A single GF was at my house yrs ago checking out guys on a dating website, I started reading some profiles with her ..... I came across this one, I started laughing out loud... OMG... It was GREAT... I wish so darn bad I would have copied & pasted it.. I am forgetting a bunch of it here.. but it went something like this....

The man described how HOT he was/ pics too (Not bad!)... and how sexually experienced- the great Don Juan ... building that up to think he was God's gift of course.... but he had specific requirements for his woman...and the night of bliss that will unfold......if the woman was not under such & such weight... click away... if the woman was looking for something that lasted beyond a night.... click away.. if she has any diseases....over a certain age... if she did this... if she did that..... it went on & on....

This was to fulfill him sexually, a night of gratification for both HOT dripping sex....she could not expect anything from him after they part ways, no phone calls, no drama...expect NOTHING... 

I loved it.....I actually had RESPECT for that..now it would have offended a myriad of woman calling him an A$$-hole but guess what, he was an HONEST cuss... and there'd be no illusions or starry-eyed Romance with that hook up!

No, women don't want that...they would slap a man that honest.. I have seen a few women on this forum talk about how they handled a man that honest over sex.. it didn't end well...meaning he didn't get the sex !


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you - especially coming from you..
> Ya know... this reminds me...
> 
> A single GF was at my house yrs ago checking out guys on a dating website, I started reading some profiles with her ..... I came across this one, I started laughing out loud... OMG... It was GREAT... I wish so darn bad I would have copied & pasted it.. I am forgetting a bunch of it here.. but it went something like this....
> ...


That reminds me of watching this story:

Liam Sullivan on Myspace - YouTube


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TiggyBlue said:


> That reminds me of watching this story:
> 
> Liam Sullivan on Myspace - YouTube


That was good ! I am one of those sick people who prefer honestly like that. In fact I think it makes the best humor of all ! Though in his case...I wouldn't have answered his ad or found an allure.... he sounds like the typical normal GUY to me.. so I wouldn't have been interested. 

I go for the sappy nice guys who aren't busy with 20 things at one time, fall too hard, too quick, they love to hang with the woman so all the Alphas can call them hen pecked.. they don't fear love, but they fear getting dumped. Kinda the opposite of his profile. Ha ha


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I think our next generation may be in trouble. This may be off topic a bit but yesterday one of our neighbors was having a party that went on through the night. It was a nice night out so we had the windows open and these teenagers were going at it outside my house. They must have been drinking, or drugs involved but they weren't being discret. The boy was asking for a bj. It didn't sound as if they knew eachother well. 
This disturbed me since we have two sons. I would be extremely disappointed if my boys acted one day like this teenager. I ended up hitting my car alarm to hustle them away from my house. Its off topc I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Coming to this forum and reading the many attitudes of women has opened my eyes to the REAL Reality...that TRUE... many are NOT looking for long lasting relationships.. this is foreign to me personally... all of my friends in life -this was our aim... Guess I've been living under a rock.
> 
> Seems the majority (men & women) want to experience life in all it's fullness single.. travel the world, experience Independence... date many before they settle down...some would not even consider Marriage on their "hope" list...but if they fall into LOVE, hey, that's OK too.


When I was much younger I had a bf who wanted to get married. He had this vision of us walking down the aisle, buying a house, having kids, the whole nine yards. My reaction was one of horror. I felt like he was trying to stuff me into a cage that I could never fit into. That even after the months we had been dating, he actually had no idea who I was, and had not listened to anything I said. Instead he had carried this image of what he wanted me to be, and was trying to push me into it.

I wanted all those things you mentioned, adventure and travel and to live life to the fullest. I thought he wanted those things with me, as this is what he had said. But really he was just itching to settle down. And I wasn't.

That spelled the end of our relationship. I have no real regrets, as we were clearly not right for each other. I do wish I had managed to handle it more gracefully than I did.

Truth is, though, if I had made the same choices as you did, I would probably always be wondering if I missed out. Just as you knew what you wanted and went for it, so did I, and I absolutely needed to explore the world on my own terms before I could ever possibly settle down without regrets.



SimplyAmorous said:


> what you just said here *IS *the issue... isn't it ? If People were *MORE HONEST* from the get go, it would be less of a problem, but it's like that Billy Joel Song ... I find this the reality today... with more people than not...
> 
> The best case scenario is if BOTH sexes hold themselves accountable for their own behavior... LIVE what they believe...not putting the judgement on another -but holding their own boundary...in accordance with their own morality or values.


:iagree::iagree:


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Many men don't lie about their intentions. If they just want sex, they'll say so. If they're not looking for an LTR, they'll say so. Sometimes people just want to keep an open mind and sees what develops. Could be an LTR. Might not be.




Really? 

Where can I find these mythical creatures, cause I've been back in the dating pool for around 3 years now, and I've yet to meet one.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Playboys who have all those notches on their belts over the GOOD guys like him - who will make a great husband & Father...


There's a middle ground here as well. It's possible, for example, for two good people to bond, to touch each other very deeply even, in the context of a short term relationship.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

minimalME said:


> Really?
> 
> Where can I find these mythical creatures, cause I've been back in the dating pool for around 3 years now, and I've yet to meet one.


Uh oh. I've met them, so I know they can exist. But I've also been out of the dating pool for 15 years now. Hope they all haven't gone the way of the dinosaurs.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Well, you got me there. Yes, I must admit. My asserting that casual sex might not be the best strategy for establishing a LTR was just a thinly veiled personal attack on you. Yes, I've been waiting months, or even years, just to lure you to a thread with some negative posts on casual sex. And you took the bait! Oh happy day! I guess the game is up. Oh well.
> 
> 
> No, now that the game is up, I will adopt your obviously correct position. Casual sex is the bees' knees. It's the only sexual strategy that has absolutely no drawbacks. Are you nervous about being pumped and dumped? Don't be! Just try some casual sex. It can't possibly backfire. Are you looking to get married? Just cast a wide net with lots of casual sex and you'll land a high quality spouse with absolutely no problem at all. Have cancer, shortness of breath, high blood pressure, insomnia, or any other physical ailment? Casual sex can cure it. Does your car's engine need degreasing? Casual sex can do it.
> ...


Oh my day is made, you've seen the light!
Now, if you could just go have some casual sex, then maybe the rest of your issues will be resolved.
Because casual sex really is a cure-all, but you have to actually do it in order for it to work.
No just talking about it, you must actually go find some random person, even a co-worker you know in passing, just as long as it's someone that you may or may not see again & don't care either way.
Then go about making a date, can be something cheap or not, that call is up to you.
Now comes the important part, getting your prey, I ahem, I mean date, into bed...or the back of your car whatever works for you.
I say spring for a hotel room not at your actual work, that way your date won't know where you live, then they can't track you down later.
After getting your victim, I mean date, (damn, sorry about that) into bed, go act out all your wildest dreams, throw some crazy porn sh*t into the mix, get all kinds of crazy up in there.
Just remember this may or may not lead to something more, but in the off chance it doesn't make sure you get everything out in the open while you can, this maybe the only time for an opportunity like this. 

See how easy it is, just gotta find someone to go along with you & before you know it, you too can have casual sex.
Now if you're married this could be an issue...or not.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Can someone tell me what the original title was supposed to be?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Uh oh. I've met them, so I know they can exist. But I've also been out of the dating pool for 15 years now. Hope they all haven't gone the way of the dinosaurs.


When I was between marriages.. If I thought a girl was looking for a husband, or saw me as a potential husband, I'd tell them, "Look I am NOT interested in getting married. If we can date and just have fun... OK... If you are looking for a husband, you need to date someone else". Some girls would accept that... Others, I had to quit dating. And I NEVER dated the same girls 3 times in a row.

I was pretty bound and determined that I wasn't getting married ever again.. After all, here I was, tall, good looking (or so people tell me) professional, making good money, no kids, don't drink, do drugs, gamble and no kids. There was no shortage of people who had a friend they wanted me to meet...


Then I screwed. I met a girl who knocked my socks off and fell head over heels in love. On our first date... all I did was kiss her... I did NOT want to blow the deal.....


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Uh oh. I've met them, so I know they can exist. *But I've also been out of the dating pool for 15 years now. Hope they all haven't gone the way of the dinosaurs*.


Therin^^^lies the problem!
What I hear from the younger folks,
Its an entirely different ball game now.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

minimalME said:


> Really?
> 
> Where can I find these mythical creatures, cause I've been back in the dating pool for around 3 years now, and I've yet to meet one.


If after 3 years you cannot find somebody, change your selection process. It's not them, it's you.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

richie33 said:


> I think our next generation may be in trouble. This may be off topic a bit but yesterday one of our neighbors was having a party that went on through the night. It was a nice night out so we had the windows open and these teenagers were going at it outside my house. They must have been drinking, or drugs involved but they weren't being discret. The boy was asking for a bj. It didn't sound as if they knew eachother well.
> This disturbed me since we have two sons. I would be extremely disappointed if my boys acted one day like this teenager. I ended up hitting my car alarm to hustle them away from my house. Its off topc I know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Next generation is in trouble? How old are you? In my generation this happened and my in-laws (Baby boomer) generation this happened as well. My parents generation, who were from WWII era, called it "heavy petting" and while it didn't include oral sex, it included drying humping and fingering.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I don't live in the country. This is NYC. They were basically on a main avenue. They werent in a car. Anyone could walk by or drive by.The boy was basically demanding it. Buy the poor girl a value meal at least.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *always_alone said*: When I was much younger I had a bf who wanted to get married. He had this vision of us walking down the aisle, buying a house, having kids, the whole nine yards. My reaction was one of horror. I felt like he was trying to stuff me into a cage that I could never fit into. *That even after the months we had been dating, he actually had no idea who I was, and had not listened to anything I said.* Instead he had carried this image of what he wanted me to be, and was trying to push me into it.


 See RIGHT HERE is a case why people shouldn't fall in bed too soon, you admit even after MONTHS, he still didn't know you (sounded like the first glimpse of horror, you should have let him go - I feel bad for the guy)...... I hope you didn't sleep with him as when he found a girl that was *RIGHT for him*, it would have saddened her that he shared himself with another.



> I wanted all those things you mentioned, adventure and travel and to live life to the fullest. I thought he wanted those things with me, as this is what he had said. But really he was just itching to settle down. And I wasn't.


 I was like that BF.. I wanted to share everything I ever dreamed of doing with the "love of my life"... every adventure...it wouldn't matter what we do, so long as we were together...(he was perfect for me cause he felt the same)...some women like hanging with their Girl friends, I was never like that, I can only stand them for so long, they are far too Petty, talk too damn much, give me a man PLEASE!



always_alone said:


> There's a middle ground here as well. It's possible, for example, for two good people to bond, to touch each other very deeply even, in the context of a short term relationship.


Of course there is , would never deny it....but IN my view, I'd still regret sleeping with someone who I said goodbye to.... I am one of those people who Cherish memories...I look back on the past with fondness...I try to capture every moment of JOY/ many pictures....I need to be able /dream of the future with that special person.....all of it... I am not sure what I would do with having slept with someone I loved deeply/ shared deeply like that..... how to erase that from my psyche ...knowing HE THREW ME AWAY, that I wasn't good enough--him moving on to another..

Sure people break up, dating is good, but intercourse to me is the most vulnerable you get (I look upon it as near sacred)... it should be reserved for the one who is worthy of our ALL. Again, *that's just my view..*

And I can not express how much THAT means to a man LIKE MY HUSBAND... Other man may not give a sh**, but my man is not one of them, he is made of a different cloth. 

And God Forbid, what if a former BF was better in bed over my Husband... I believe something like that could HAUNT me... I know in the back of my mind, I'd be comparing...as I am sure multitudes DO this -when they've had a variety of partners...but of course we can't go there & destroy our spouses saying anything... 



> That spelled the end of our relationship. I have no real regrets, as we were clearly not right for each other. I do wish I had managed to handle it more gracefully than I did.


 Sounds like another good guy that got dumped, do you have any idea if he went on to marry the love of his life and lived his dreams? I hope he did. 

I'm very happy my husband met me, as he would have been like that Bf...and I'd hate to see him get hurt like that.. .He had 2 gf's before me , one chased him, and one he asked out.. they both dumped him, he was very young but even that jaded him... When he asked me to be his girl less than a week after we met, he had ZERO confidence , expected me to turn him down even ... the fact he took the chance believing the majority of women have no use for his type... I guess was FATE for us. He gambled on the right girl this time...even if he thought the odds were very low.

It's important for all of us to have ...NO REGRETS. I have always tried to live my life - with that very thought - in my mind.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Here's the bottom line: everybody has their own value system and that's that.


Amen.



> I don't think one is better over the other for long term success. ... I don't think having sex early/not having sex early makes a difference relationship wise.


I think you're correct in terms of a single relationship. I don't know that having sex early on, or after months, or waiting until after marriage, will affect the ultimate outcome. However, prior sexual history will. Risk of divorce is positively correlated with number of premarital sexual partners. And having sex early on in a relationship would probably mean more ultimate partners. So there appears to be a practical risk to having sex early.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Those who lie and misrepresent themselves are just despicable and selfish, IMO. It may be common, but it shows only a very low character.


I say that, if one's policy is to only have sex with people of high character, then spend the time required to learn about the potential partner's character before having sex. It's fine with me if one wants to spend more time investigating which vacuum cleaner to buy than which partner to have sex with. But don't complain when the failure to do due diligence has negative consequences.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> As you well know, standards here oftentimes only apply to women. What grates my nerves to no end is when men say women should remain virgins while they themselves nail anything that moves, claim biology and cite pseudo science as the reasons they do.


I think you're wrong here. From a religious point of view, there is no double standard. Most of the major religions teach the sex should happen between married couples.

Biologically, it's obvious that women can be certain of paternity while men can't. Unless a man is attached to his mate at the hip, the possibility exists for another man to impregnate her. Of course, the woman will know about all of her sexual partners, so questions of paternity carry much less weight for her. Men, given the uncertain paternity and hidden ovulation inherent in women, understandably value chasteness and loyalty more than women might.

I don't understand how any of that is unfair or unreasonable.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Unless a man is attached to his mate at the hip, the possibility exists for another man to impregnate her. Of course, the woman will know about all of her sexual partners, so questions of paternity carry much less weight for her. Men, given the uncertain paternity and hidden ovulation inherent in women, understandably value chasteness and loyalty more than women might.
> 
> I don't understand how any of that is unfair or unreasonable.


Because unless a woman is attached to her mate at the hip, he may be generating children left right and centre, with zero care for the paternity of any of them.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I say that, if one's policy is to only have sex with people of high character, then spend the time required to learn about the potential partner's character before having sex. It's fine with me if one wants to spend more time investigating which vacuum cleaner to buy than which partner to have sex with. But don't complain when the failure to do due diligence has negative consequences.


What counts as due diligence? You are aware that single people aren't the only ones who lie and cheat aren't you? Marriages fail after decades sometimes because one partner betrayed the other.

Will you also tell them not to complain to you because they didn't pick the right vacuum cleaner?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richie33 said:


> The boy was basically demanding it. Buy the poor girl a value meal at least.


Ewww. This would get him a kj (knee job), not a bj, if it were me.

As for the value meal comment? Also eeeww. I get that she may not have much respect for herself, but you don't have to compound it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Sounds like another good guy that got dumped, do you have any idea if he went on to marry the love of his life and lived his dreams? I hope he did.


Yes, absolutely. He was a good guy that got dumped. Did he go on to meet the love of his life? Honestly, I have no idea. That was a long time ago and far away. 

You needn't feel too sorry for him, though. I was not his first girlfriend, and he had slept with others before I came into the picture. Sex was not sacred to him. 

And I've always been upfront about who I am. (It's one of my character flaws.) He knew I was ambivalent about the white picket fence and wanted to travel the world. But he decided that since I am a woman that I couldn't really mean that and substituted his ideal of what I should be and should want for the reality of what I was.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Of course there is , would never deny it....but IN my view, I'd still regret sleeping with someone who I said goodbye to.... I am one of those people who Cherish memories...I look back on the past with fondness...I try to capture every moment of JOY/ many pictures....I need to be able /dream of the future with that special person.....all of it... I am not sure what I would do with having slept with someone I loved deeply/ shared deeply like that..... how to erase that from my psyche ...knowing HE THREW ME AWAY, that I wasn't good enough--him moving on to another.


Forever is a lovely concept, but oh so hard to achieve. You are lucky to have found what you have, and lucky that it has all worked out for you. But people change and sh*t happens. Forever isn't always a possibility. That doesn't, to my mind, mean that my memories aren't wonderful, or that I've been "thrown away" or am not good enough. It just means that I didn't find a "forever" person in my youth. 

As for the sacredness of sex? Maybe if I hadn't been abused, raped, starting at the tender age of 9, I might have a different attitude. But I can assure you that having sex under those sorts of conditions makes it pretty tough to believe that it holds such a deep meaning.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Provided that the mutual chemistry is present, it could happen at most anytime.

In my college years, I dated one woman exclusively for as long as 10 months until I gave up on her, as she was obviously "saving herself," or so she let on.

I've only had one date where I got lucky on Date No. 1. But it didn't really last.

IMHO, there is no firm barometer or expectations table as to when to expect it. 

I'd greatly say to lay back, have a good time together, and to just let nature take its due course!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Because unless a woman is attached to her mate at the hip, he may be generating children left right and centre, with zero care for the paternity of any of them.


True. But if parents wanted to direct their resources toward the care of their offspring, a woman can be sure that her resources are directed toward her offspring. Even if her mate had other children with other women, she wouldn't direct her resources towards those children. A man may want to direct his resources toward his own children. But he can't be 100% sure (absent a DNA test, which only recently became available) that he is the father of his mate's child. It seems reasonable to me that men would adapt a sexual strategy geared toward minimizing the risk of unknowingly raising other men's children.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> What counts as due diligence?


If character is important to you, then I think due diligence means spending enough time to be confident that you can judge the other person's character. In other words, maybe think twice about sleeping with a person you would hesitate to provide a job reference for.



> You are aware that single people aren't the only ones who lie and cheat aren't you? Marriages fail after decades sometimes because one partner betrayed the other.


Sure. You're not suggesting that a single couple who have known each other for a few hours, or days, or even weeks, understand each other's character as well as a couple who have been together for decades, are you?



> Will you also tell them not to complain to you because they didn't pick the right vacuum cleaner?


As I said, it depends on the due diligence. If you buy a vacuum cleaner out of the back of a van on the side of the road, then don't complain to me that the "salesman" lied to you when he told you that you could trust him to have your best interests at heart. I will have no sympathy for you.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

"Waiting"

For what? I see the Bill Clinton definition of sex has been introduced. This is very common in young people today, doing oral and anal sex, but not intercourse.

People having oral, anal, mutual masturbation etc. are taking huge liberties with the definitions of "waiting" and the business about building up anticipation. You're already having sex. 

It also blows a hole big enough for a cannon ball to be doing everything but straight intercourse and claiming you are setting sex aside so that you are making a clear decision about a partner before you start having sex. 


*Carribean Man* pointed out what is behind so much of the double-standards and hypocrisy in Western cultures: our long history of viewing sex as bad. So cum all over my face honey instead of in my crotch, and that way God will be happy with us waiting, building up anticipation, and judging each other's character before we have sex. 

Absolotely, to each his own. But it is worth looking into why we do things. There are young girls out there doing anal and probably not liking it because they've been convinced by an argument that is logically bankrupt.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I can only hope my son waits until he's mature enough to weigh the potential consequences that go along with sex.
His father doesn't think much of women and enjoys sleeping around so trying to teach my son to hold out til maturity feels like a losing battle.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> A man may want to direct his resources toward his own children. But he can't be 100% sure (absent a DNA test, which only recently became available) that he is the father of his mate's child. It seems reasonable to me that men would adapt a sexual strategy geared toward minimizing the risk of unknowingly raising other men's children.


A man who is "spreading his seed" isn't likely investing any resources beyond that seed, and therefore doesn't hold any real value for any sexual strategy. Sperm, after all, are produced in the billions and so not worth too much.

Human offspring require a ton of care beyond fertilizing an egg.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Sure. You're not suggesting that a single couple who have known each other for a few hours, or days, or even weeks, understand each other's character as well as a couple who have been together for decades, are you?


What does knowledge matter when your SO of 25 years decides to throw it all away for the hottie down the street?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> *And I've always been upfront about who I am. (It's one of my character flaws.)* He knew I was ambivalent about the white picket fence and wanted to travel the world. But he decided that since I am a woman that I couldn't really mean that and substituted his ideal of what I should be and should want for the reality of what I was.


 This is never a character flaw ...but of course you know this .. I wish more people was Openly honest with their intentions at the beginning, I think many are afraid though, that fear of being vulnerable with who they really are, as it could scare others away.. I would run from someone who COULDn't share that over one who could.. It's something very valuable.. 



> As for the sacredness of sex? Maybe if I hadn't been abused, raped, starting at the tender age of 9, I might have a different attitude. But I can assure you that having sex under those sorts of conditions makes it pretty tough to believe that it holds such a deep meaning.


I am very sorry always_alone  ... I can't even begin to imagine what you have been through.. and how that can affect a young girls life...her outlook...

A close friend of ours...2 of her daughters were molested by an Uncle -unbeknownst to her -when they spent the night at her sister's house (him the husband)....had the little brother not said something suspicious one day... I don't know how long it might have went on... as he threatened them to not tell...

The younger one started drawing pictures with a lock upon her mouth...what she was dealing with inside...through art...the pain of this experience...this was like some kind of therapy -though she had counseling afterwards too...My friend published a book with her story... and how to help young people who had been abused like that, it is a horrific betrayal ... 

It is called Feeling Safe By Autumn Grace and Mom: Books


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wiserforit said:


> "Waiting"
> 
> For what? I see the Bill Clinton definition of sex has been introduced. This is very common in young people today, doing oral and anal sex, but not intercourse.
> 
> ...


I want to address this...as I am one who calls it "waiting" by withholding intercourse... (though we never engaged in oral , no anal - not allowed to touch his crack before or after the vows)...

To each their own personal views and *boundaries*.. ...I would not belittle another's (if they are single & free) ...to withhold intercourse.. I see value in this, even wisdom.....and will attempt to explain... 

My personal view is this.... INTERCOURSE has the most awesomest of POWER attached to it... in fact NOTHING in this life carries such weight ... because it can create NEW LIFE... birth control can fail..and has plenty...God forbid a child be conceived to 2 people who do not want to spend the rest of their lives together raising this precious life .....how many have the baby carriage come BEFORE the commitment today ?? ... not a big deal ? I think it IS .. 

Now I am not against abortion .. better a child never see the light of day than live a life of pain due to wrong choices of those who engaged in moment of Lust... 

So I for one.. feel it is a WORTHY boundary..and one I would defend over any other sexual activity - for this reason alone.. I care deeply about the future of any of my potential children, and not up for getting an abortion- for various reasons. 

Some many advocate...Just go from 1st base to 4th....everyone... if you start sex at 16.. go for it!! no reason to hold back...it's still SEX anyway.. stick it in SON [email protected]# ....

This differing of views again lies in the heart of our sexual mindsets.. WHat is funny is.. I really DOUBT many young people give this much thought at all.. or could explain it for that matter... which really is a shame.. chances are they are following the norm of society or their group of friends at the time.. feeling this is what is "acceptable" .. 

In this book Bringing Sex into Focus: The Quest for Sexual Integrity: Books... this topic is discussed... It spoke of the various 6 lenses people look through.... almost too complicated for me to explain here, I'd probably have to look it up even.. 

It's like some want to TAINT those who aren't as Pure as the driven snow...others accept that fact we can engage in some sexual play (while single of course as it is born in us to be sexual)... but others want to MAKE IT ALL BLACK and WHITE.. It is black & white in regards *to Infidelity* - as YES.. it IS sexual behavior... Clinton crossed a sexual fence allowing Monica use him as a lolli pop... .I don't think any of us would disagree... but is there some ethical wrong if single to engage in this? 

Intercourse to me = the becoming of ONE, it's the fusion.. I just don't take that lightly... so that is my personal argument. 

I feel every person under the sun ought to have boundaries in all stages of their lives, reason these things out... to avoid Risk and hurt to others ...

One thread on here about the "Incentives for Men to marry" .... Never forgot this one post by *Dean" about his wife... she was a very smart woman, so I feel.... she slept with him, intercourse, all the way... that wasn't her personal boundary.....it was this >>> she refused to spend THE NIGHT with him... because to her.. that was very very special, it had to mean more than just "going together"... so she held to her guns....he would need to make it official.. for him to get this privilege...

After awhile that got old, he was missing her, hated her going home every night...wanted to hold .... wake up to this beautiful creature in the morning.. feeling her there beside him...so yeah, he explained how this led to his proposing... and he's never regretted it.. I think she was a very smart woman.

Nothing wrong with some personal boundaries.. before one gives their all to another.


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## Cee Paul (Apr 11, 2012)

I've never had sex on a first date and have always tried to get to know that person first, and I think the soonest that I've started a sexual relationship is after a 3rd date and beyond.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> A man who is "spreading his seed" isn't likely investing any resources beyond that seed, and therefore doesn't hold any real value for any sexual strategy. Sperm, after all, are produced in the billions and so not worth too much.
> 
> Human offspring require a ton of care beyond fertilizing an egg.


*Sigh*

Look, I have no interest in arguing just for the sake of arguing. You believe that men and women, despite being different physically, mentally, and emotionally, have somehow evolved to think and act about sex and raising children in exactly the same manner. I'll just say that I think that notion is patently and obviously false. And I'll leave it at that.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> What does knowledge matter when your SO of 25 years decides to throw it all away for the hottie down the street?


It matters a great deal. Wouldn't you agree that people of high character are less likely to cheat on their spouses? If one waits to get sexual with, and subsequently marry, a person until one has determined that person has good character and values, then I think one is less likely to be victimized later in the relationship than one who is content to learn about one's partner's character later on in the relationship. That seems inarguable.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> Look, I have no interest in arguing just for the sake of arguing. You believe that men and women, despite being different physically, mentally, and emotionally, have somehow evolved to think and act about sex and raising children in exactly the same manner. I'll just say that I think that notion is patently and obviously false. And I'll leave it at that.


I'm not arguing for the sake of it, just trying to clarify my point as you seem to be missing it entirely.

My point is *not* that men and women think the same, but that these so-called evolutionary explanations of differences are utterly ad hoc and self-contradictory justifications of various social conventions that exist only in a subset of human populations

When we look to our ancestors in the animal kingdom, we see that male/female sex and social roles vary quite widely. 

When we look to other human cultures, we see similar variety.

OF course, if you choose to reject all of this evidence as patently false so that you can continue to maintain the ubiquity of Victorian-era assumptions about sex roles ... well, that's your right I suppose.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> It matters a great deal. Wouldn't you agree that people of high character are less likely to cheat on their spouses? If one waits to get sexual with, and subsequently marry, a person until one has determined that person has good character and values, then I think one is less likely to be victimized later in the relationship than one who is content to learn about one's partner's character later on in the relationship. That seems inarguable.


We seem to be talking past each other.

Do you really think I'm advocating picking up random strangers and marrying them as a fine strategy for long term relationship success?

Nothing could be further from the truth.

There is a LOT of middle ground between remaining utterly chaste until the wedding night when you've made your forever vows and sleeping with every person that you drink a cup of coffee with.

All I'm pointing out is that you can be as chaste as you want and still be in for a world of surprise after you marry. People do change. People do hide their flaws when dating and when engaged. People do lie and cheat, even after they've promised not to.

Absolutely, getting to know someone will help you choose someone of high character who is compatible with you. All I'm suggesting is that chastity isn't necessarily a prerequisite for this. And in some ways, it's a detriment because there will be a bunch of things you *don't* know about that person that could cause you a world of hurt.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> My point is *not* that men and women think the same, but that these so-called evolutionary explanations of differences are utterly ad hoc and self-contradictory justifications of various social conventions that exist only in a subset of human populations
> 
> When we look to our ancestors in the animal kingdom, we see that male/female sex and social roles vary quite widely.
> 
> ...


You're the one being contradictory. You say that you recognize sexual differences. But in the next breath, you dismiss them as unfair, ad-hoc, or a double standard.

I am the one recognizing that there are differences between the sexes and allowing for the fact that those differences evolved for reasons besides a patriarchal conspiracy.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I
> 
> My personal view is this.... INTERCOURSE has the most awesomest of POWER attached to it... in fact NOTHING in this life carries such weight ... because it can create NEW LIFE... birth control can fail..and has plenty...God forbid a child be conceived to 2 people who do not want to spend the rest of their lives together raising this precious life .....how many have the baby carriage come BEFORE the commitment today ?? ... not a big deal ? I think it IS ..


Come now, we can get all melodramatic about driving a car. Ten people a day are killed and ten times that many injured. 

Nobody is arguing for excessive promiscuity nor drunk driving. I am addressing what amounts to the "blow jobs aren't sex" position.

The only logical argument I can see you making is that intercourse carries the possibility of birth control failure. I certainly agree. I suppose you anticipate needing to counter the fact people can avoid pregnancy with 98% certainty with condoms alone. When you thow out people that are too stupid to understand condoms, it is much closer to 100%.

So while true, the risk is extremely low. People that are getting pregnant aren't using birth control. 

You cannot assume the first date means you don't know the person. I saw my first wife at least three times a week for two years at Tae Kwon Do practice, partied together, a lot of overnight road trips - but the whole time I had a girlfriend. 

First road trip to Omaha after I break up... we go home together. No date. She moved in effectively as of the first night. Including living together and marriage, 12 years.

The fact she never got pregnant that whole time is a testimonial to birth control. 

I think if the opening post were to re-phrase the question as "should you screw total strangers", we will get a more consistent answer. 

First date doesn't mean they are a stranger. First date might be the girl next door you have known since you were a boy.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> The funny thing is SA, for myself, I pretty much agree with you on this. It does take time to get to know someone, to build that trust, to see if they are long term relationship material for you. And you are right, sleeping with someone after knowing them for just a few hours does cloud that ability to even begin.
> 
> *One thing I think we should clarify here though is that first date does NOT equal knowing someone for just a few hours. A ONS club hookup most likely is knowing someone for a few hours, or less, but many of the posters here, myself included who have talked about sleeping with their long term partner on the first or second date knew them for more than a few hours before it happened.*
> 
> Yes, I have slept with two women on the first date, but I had known them as more than just acquaintences for an extended period of time before said first date, and they turned into long term relationships. My STBW and I spent more time in our first month getting to know each other before our first date, and sleeping together on our second, than most people do in six months or a year.





SimplyAmorous said:


> *This is true, I have never had a Long distance relationship, but this has become pretty common today -in our dating world.... Plenty of skyping, might have even done cyber sex 1st !...Not sure what I'd classify that ....and these couples could have talked more in a span of time being apart over some do in real life... and Yes, an emotional connection can flourish in that...
> 
> When I said what I say, I had JUST meeting "didn't know each other from Adam" type thoughts in my head. See, nothing in our world is "Black and white" - many shades of grey.*





Wiserforit said:


> Come now, we can get all melodramatic about driving a car. Ten people a day are killed and ten times that many injured.
> 
> Nobody is arguing for excessive promiscuity nor drunk driving. I am addressing what amounts to the "blow jobs aren't sex" position.
> 
> ...


In SA's defense, I raised this issue several pages back and she acknowledged the point, and said she was coming at it from a ONS point of view.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

mr. Pink and I worked together for 3 years before our first date, during which we had sex. 28 years later we're STILL here.

Don't go to bed with people you don't know well.
Don't date someone you wouldn't provide a reference for.
Dont date mysoginists.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You're the one being contradictory. You say that you recognize sexual differences. But in the next breath, you dismiss them as unfair, ad-hoc, or a double standard.
> 
> I am the one recognizing that there are differences between the sexes and allowing for the fact that those differences evolved for reasons besides a patriarchal conspiracy.


You are asserting biologically predetermined (sorry, "evolved") sex roles that exist in all human and animal worlds. To maintain this requires a laundry list of ad hoc and self-contradictory explanations to account for contrary evidence.

I am asserting that there is great diversity in sex roles in both human and animal populations. The only thing this contradicts is the idea that male and female roles are fixed through all time and space, something that I've never suggested.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Wiserforit said:


> So while true, the risk is extremely low. People that are getting pregnant aren't using birth control.


While modern birth control is very effective, it's not 100%. Even surgical sterilization can fail. I've never known a woman who hasn't forgotten to take her pill every now and then.



> First date doesn't mean they are a stranger. First date might be the girl next door you have known since you were a boy.


I think knowing someone intimately for years before the first date is the exception, not the rule.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> While modern birth control is very effective, it's not 100%. Even surgical sterilization can fail. I've never known a woman who hasn't forgotten to take her pill every now and then.
> 
> 
> I think knowing someone intimately for years before the first date is the exception, not the rule.


Not necessarily years, but I think that knowing someone for hours is the exception. Months is more likely the norm.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> While modern birth control is very effective, it's not 100%. Even surgical sterilization can fail.


No kidding. He said the risk was low.


AND.. bless my wifes heart.. she almost never missed her pill for 25 years. When she did miss - even by a few hours - we resorted to 'alternate activities'. How good is that?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> You are asserting biologically predetermined (sorry, "evolved") sex roles that exist in all human and animal worlds. To maintain this requires a laundry list of ad hoc and self-contradictory explanations to account for contrary evidence.


To the contrary. Recognizing the biological influences that affect our behavior is nothing more than keeping one's eyes open to reality.



> I am asserting that there is great diversity in sex roles in both human and animal populations. The only thing this contradicts is the idea that male and female roles are fixed through all time and space, something that I've never suggested.


I have never suggested that we are slaves to our biology. But you seem to be insisting that our biology has no influence on our behavior. Sorry, but the idea that billions of couples throughout human history have just coincidentally chosen remarkably similar behaviors and attitudes regarding sex, based on nothing more than patriarchal influences of disparate cultures is just too much of a stretch for me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wiserforit said:


> The only logical argument I can see you making is that intercourse carries the possibility of birth control failure. I certainly agree. I suppose you anticipate needing to counter the fact people can avoid pregnancy with 98% certainty with condoms alone. When you thow out people that are too stupid to understand condoms, it is much closer to 100%.
> 
> So while true, the risk is extremely low. People that are getting pregnant aren't using birth control.


 *Logic* is very important to me..oh yes!...but it goes beyond just Logic for me ....but I have already addressed that and pounded it into the ground here ....if you're not a die hard sensitive Romantic at heart -you simply won't get it..... 

Frankly...as MUCH as I liked the boys in my youth....it's probably a damn good thing I viewed it as I DID...or I might have gotten myself a fast "reputation".... it's not that I didn't want to... I just didn't feel it was right or best for my future. 

Now my husband on the other hand ...he may not view Intercourse as "sacred" (I've asked)......he just calls it "very very special" and his beef is -he never wanted to be with someone who's been around -due to STD's.... So that is HIS perspective. We all have our concerns I guess. 



> You cannot assume the first date means you don't know the person. I saw my first wife at least three times a week for two years at Tae Kwon Do practice, partied together, a lot of overnight road trips - but the whole time I had a girlfriend.


 Sounds like you knew of her character a good long time - spanning 2 years as a decently close friendship... I wouldn't classify that as a 1st date in the way I was viewing it..at all. She was far from a stranger by that time..heck some people seem to know a FRIEND more than they know their lover. My Dad & step Mom knew each other all through high school (as friends- she married his best friend, my dad married her best friend)...... how about that one...a match made in heaven too, there never was a 1st date. 



> I think if the opening post were to re-phrase the question as "should you screw total strangers", we will get a more consistent answer.
> 
> First date doesn't mean they are a stranger. First date might be the girl next door you have known since you were a boy.


 This is all very true but I seriously doubt when the OP wrote her post, she had this situation in mind... this is why Details are so beautiful...because really...nothing is so black & white !


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Logic* is very important to me..oh yes!...but it goes beyond just Logic for me ....but I have already addressed that and pounded it into the ground here ....if you're not a die hard sensitive Romantic at heart -you simply won't get it.....
> 
> Frankly...as MUCH as I liked the boys in my youth....it's probably a damn good thing I viewed it as I DID...or I might have gotten myself a fast "reputation".... it's not that I didn't want to... I just didn't feel it was right or best for my future.
> 
> ...


Sounds JUST like me...When I was in my dating prime, AIDS was the new concern. Heroin use was somewhat common among the group of women I was dating within, and if she was a user, no way I'd sleep with her...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Sounds JUST like me...When I was in my dating prime, AIDS was the new concern. Heroin use was somewhat common among the group of women I was dating within, and if she was a user, no way I'd sleep with her...


If you knew that you are dating within a really risky sub segment, wouldn't it be wiser to get yourself together and leave it alone for a while until you can date more desireable ladies who have less risk and perhaps more going on for themself?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

treyvion said:


> If you knew that you are dating within a really risky sub segment, wouldn't it be wiser to get yourself together and leave it alone for a while until you can date more desireable ladies who have less risk and perhaps more going on for themself?


Oh, I was quite together, and it was quite a desirable subset, and they had quite a lot going for themselves. It was also a very good excuse to not sleep with someone you enjoyed being with, and having as an arm charm, but didn't want to get too serious with.

ETA: Like I said before, I am not going to sleep with someone I am not seriously emotionally invested in.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> billions of couples throughout human history have just coincidentally chosen remarkably similar behaviors and attitudes regarding sex


Here is the heart of our disagreement, IMHO. 

What are we counting as remarkably similar? On what measures?


Some cultures are much more promiscuous than others. Some polygamous, some monogamous. Some arrange marriages, some give free choice. Some are extremely oppressive of women; others give them leadership. Some are nuclear families, some are extended. 

This isn't about a patriarchal conspiracy. It's about diversity and the significance of "biological influence" on our social norms around sex, dating, and marriage. Given the diversity of norms and the similarity in biology, I'm inclined to say norms did not "evolve" from our biology

We'll have to agree to disagree.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Oh, I was quite together, and it was quite a desirable subset, and they had quite a lot going for themselves. It was also a very good excuse to not sleep with someone you enjoyed being with, and having as an arm charm, but didn't want to get too serious with.
> 
> ETA: Like I said before, I am not going to sleep with someone I am not seriously emotionally invested in.


Why would they be doing heroin and getting AIDS then. I was trying to figure out what kind of group this is...


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Why would they be doing heroin and getting AIDS then. I was trying to figure out what kind of group this is...


None of them ended up with AIDS that I am aware of, but you have to remember that in hte late 80's into the early 90's it was quite the scare. The women I am talking about were involved in fashion. Many of them were not users of course, but it was common enough, and I was probably overly cautious.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> In SA's defense, I raised this issue several pages back and she acknowledged the point, and said she was coming at it from a ONS point of view.


Thank you then, and also in seeing what she has to say, people are closer on this than they are when using a variable "first date" concept.

With the ONS date I think the Mustang Ranch is more the kind of girl I would want. Most of my life I have been with someone else, so this is the kind of pinch-hitter you want. All business, no complications with work and friends, family, etc. Get in and get out. 

And you know, I'm not going to think any less of her just because she does me the first date, no. :smthumbup:


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

always_alone said:


> We seem to be talking past each other.
> 
> Do you really think I'm advocating picking up random strangers and marrying them as a fine strategy for long term relationship success?
> 
> ...



This happened to a very dear friend of mine, S. 
She met a man, B through her church, he was a sailor, everyone told her what a great catch he was, he said all the right things, they dated for almost 2 years & waited for marriage to have sex.
On her wedding night, S who was a virgin, got herpes from her husband.
God only knows who he got it from, you see B has sexual issues, his issues are he can't keep his d*ck in his pants.
S found out later, through searching his emails & cell phone, that B was placing ads on CraigsList & trolling for random hook ups.
One time S saw for herself what B was doing, she caught him at a McDonald's where B was meeting a stranger for a hook-up. 
Luckily she was smart enough to move on & divorce him. 
It's kind of hard to stay with a man who lied to you & threatened your health. 

I highly doubt that the people who meet random strangers for sex are looking to get into a relationship or marry these strangers.
It's a totally different thing from dating someone & having sex on the first date, DATE being the operative word here.
There is an INTENT here, that is the date, which I'm fairly certain is how most relationships actually start out, from a first date. 
With two people having known one another prior to said date, whether in person or online, but there is at least a personal history between the two. 
I certainly wouldn't call hooking up with a random stranger a first date.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

here's some interesting data:



> A recent AOL survey says that 40% of women view an appropriate time frame to wait for sex as being one to three months, while 35% of men think the third date is fine.
> 
> On average, couples have sex within about four to six dates.
> 
> Twenty-nine percent of Americans have had sex on the first date.


So almost 1/3 on the first date. Seems reasonable to believe that those are also mostly people that knew each other for a while. The women are telling us one to three months. 

From Here:


76 Interesting Facts about Dating and Relationships


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