# Natural Family Planning (NFP)



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

@CatholicDad has started a thread jack in this thread: I've only had sex with my wife 2 times in the last... The link is to the first post in the thread jack.

I have started this thread to discuss Natural Family Planning, NFP.

Most people think they know what NFP is, but they really have no idea. It is not the "rhythm method." NFP is difficult, because it requires the woman to take her temperature at the same time each morning, then chart her temperature. Following it to the letter also requires her to lay in bed for a few minutes before taking her temperature. Once the woman learns the phases of her fertility cycle, she knows when she is fertile. This requires daily diligence in waking, waiting, temperature taking, and charting. You can't do it for a few months, think you've got it down, then just go by what you think you know. It requires charting every single day for as long as you use this method. It also requires checking cervical fluid, as the consistency changes throughout the cycle and can help determine exactly where a woman is in her cycle. There are also magnifying glasses made specifically for observing and evaluating this fluid to determine where a woman is at in her cycle.

However, it requires either abstinence or a back-up method when in the fertile phase. This is where it gets tricky. When a woman is in the fertile phase of her cycle, her sex drive is at its highest.

NFP is great for knowing when a woman is fertile, so she can determine the best time for conception.

There are various books that cover these topics, but I found this to be very interesting. Taking Charge of Your Fertility, 20th Anniversary Edition: The Definitive Guide to Natural Birth Control, Pregnancy Achievement, and Reproductive Health: Weschler, Toni: 9780062326034: Amazon.com: Books

My description of the method is not to be taken as comprehensive at all.

This is the method my husband and I used, with back-up, when I was breastfeeding. It resulted in the birth of our delightful son. I wasn't good at the abstinence part and neither was my husband. Apparently, our back-up method wasn't as effective as we thought it would be.

So, here you go, @CatholicDad. Debate away.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It should also be noted that CatholicDad has ten children and says this method works great. 

It's not that this method doesn't work. It is highly effective for those who can practice abstinence during the fertile phase, but I don't think many couples are able to do that.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Wanting to add, as a woman gets older it can be harder to predict ovulation with this method. Also if you have been breastfeeding, you can get foiled by this "method".

In my opinion it should only be used by couples who are 100 percent okay with getting accidentally pregnant.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Sounds like a great way to get pregnant.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

thunderchad said:


> Sounds like a great way to get pregnant.


It is. Many couples use this method to get pregnant.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I know a lady who accidentally got pregnant when she had sex 6 days before ovulation was due just after her period ended. 
I was so fertile, getting pregnant straight away with all my three, that I don't think just this would have stopped me from having more babies.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

This is actually a good method for couples, who want to avoid hormonal methods, who aren't ready for a permanent method, and are either not finished with growing their family, or are unsure. It can be used with back-up methods, such as condoms. I found it highly accurate when I was breastfeeding to the point that I knew immediately when I was pregnant.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

We used modern methods. The one and only time we didn't, along came a Conan junior.

We had a condom but Mrs. Conan holding it in her hand didn't work.

True story.🙂


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I mean, c'mon, let's be real. This is the kind of sick joke Lucifer would pull, right? 

We got two people, married, who can't do the ONE THING they want to do more than anything else when they most want to do it. Someone should write a song about it.






This one, actually, is more on topic.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> We used modern methods. The one and only time we didn't, along came a Conan junior.
> 
> We had a condom but Mrs. Conan holding it in her hand didn't work.
> 
> True story.🙂


Werent you going to have a child between you?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Cletus said:


> We got two people, married, who can't do the ONE THING they want to do more than anything else when they most want to do it. Someone should write a song about it.


It's not great, which is why a back-up method should always be available. Still the effectiveness of non-hormonal methods isn't great.

I am aware that many Catholics don't believe in birth control, but they do believe in NFP, which requires a couple to deny each other during the time when a woman is most receptive and interested. That doesn't seem any more biblical than birth control would. (I don't think birth control is unbiblical, but many Catholics and some Protestants do.)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> It is. Many couples use this method to get pregnant.


Right.

So the fact this technique is what is used by many couples to get pregnant, it should probably not be preached to those do not want to get pregnant as a reliable form of birth control. 

Call me crazy if you must but it just seems a little contradictory that a protocol prescribed by fertility specialists to GET pregnant is being heralded by some as a reliable form of birth control.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Right.
> 
> So the fact this technique is what is used by many couples to get pregnant, it should probably not be preached to those do not want to get pregnant as a reliable form of birth control.
> 
> Call me crazy if you must but it just seems a little contradictory that a protocol prescribed by fertility specialists to GET pregnant is being heralded by some as a reliable form of birth control.


This method will show a woman when she is fertile, which is useful to prevent and obtain pregnancy. If she is fertile, she will either abstain to avoid pregnancy, or she will engage to obtain a pregnancy. Therefore, it is not contradictory at all.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> It's not great, which is why a back-up method should always be available. Still the effectiveness of non-hormonal methods isn't great.
> 
> I am aware that many Catholics don't believe in birth control, but they do believe in NFP, which requires a couple to deny each other during the time when a woman is most receptive and interested. That doesn't seem any more biblical than birth control would. (I don't think birth control is unbiblical, but many Catholics and some Protestants do.)


It’s funny that everyone talks about the abstaining during ovulation is “cruel” or difficult while at the same time it is a known fact that birth control pills cause a reduction in a woman’s testosterone level- the primary hormone that causes a desire for sex.

My wife never uttered a complaint about abstaining when ovulating. We had the opposite problem. I was such a horn dog when younger I think she was glad she could count on a few days “off” every month. These days off were good for us… we could enjoy our time together without sex.

I guess everyone can rag on NFP without knowing anything about it…when they’ve successfully raised 10 kids and been married for three decades… I might even listen. 😉

But hey, if your wife pops birth control pills for thirty years and her uterus falls out or interest in sex is destroyed… don’t come crying to me. Obviously, NFP isn’t going to work for swingers, dummies, or fools with no self control. 😆

Thanks @Cynthia though- your overview was very good. The daily temperature stuff didn’t work great for us, but the “peak type mucous” was incredibly obvious…I really think all marriages would benefit from NFP for both avoiding and conceiving babies.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

To me, the _intent_ — avoiding pregnancy — is the same no matter whether you use natural or artificial means. I never tried the natural method because of the high failure rate but I also didn’t like any of the artificial methods long-term so in my 20’s I had my tubes tied. No more worries after that (but you need to be sure before you do that because reversal isn’t guaranteed).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

There’s a name for people who use NFP for birth control. 
Parents.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

pastasauce79 said:


> It wasn't hard to learn how to do "natural birth control" and every woman should learn how to "track fertility" because most of the time women are clueless about how their cycles work.


YES. We’ll said!! Even if you don’t rely on it completely- the knowledge is very enlightening. We pretty much knew every time we conceived- which also meant my wife could lay off the booze and stuff knowing that a baby might be forming. She’s not a big drinker either but if you’re planning on making babies you might as well know it, avoid toxins/drugs/alcohol and give little innocent baby the best chance at life possible.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> There’s a name for people who use NFP for birth control.
> Parents.


You’re literally the third person to crack this joke….


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> You’re literally the third person to crack this joke….


They'll stop when they get to 10


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> It’s funny that everyone talks about the abstaining during ovulation is “cruel” or difficult while at the same time it is a known fact that birth control pills cause a reduction in a woman’s testosterone level- the primary hormone that causes a desire for sex.


It may be funny to you, but it is the main reason why NFP is not effective for most couples. God designed women to be more interested in sex when she is in her fertile phase, so it's not just a matter of self-control. It's a matter of biology.

Birth control pills may have an impact on sex drive for some women, but this is by no means universal. Furthermore, there is more to sex drive than hormones. I was on the pill for years, to manage a health matter. It did not impact my sex drive at all. I don't think it's a big factor for most women on hormonal birth control, even if it does impact drive, it's not the only factor and I don't think most couples notice any difference in their frequency due to the pill.



CatholicDad said:


> But hey, if your wife pops birth control pills for thirty years and her uterus falls out or interest in sex is destroyed… don’t come crying to me.


This is hyperbole. No one's uterus falls out due to hormonal birth control. In fact, there are some advantages to being on hormonal birth control. I was on it due to a medical issue. It was very helpful.

Pregnancy can also cause multiple health problems, including uterine prolapse, which is when the uterus is no longer supported properly. It can protrude from the vagina.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> All you NFP haters can kiss my rear. I like my woman all natural, organic, no artificial hormones and I like a FULL (and wonderful) exchange of bodily fluids (no “barrier”) 😉.


Are you against all medication or only hormonal birth control?
If you have a headache, do you take something for it? If so, what?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> Are you against all medication or only hormonal birth control?
> If you have a headache, do you take something for it? If so, what?


Do you let your sons take steroids? I mean, you’re cool with hormones right? It’d sure help them in sports- maybe get them a scholarship.

You can also conceive babies on the pill- but the fertilized egg never implants. I prefer to proceed with caution with stuff like this- I even hate killing spiders.

I’m suspicious of the pharmaceutical industries claims about the benefits of medications… personally I prefer to try and stay away from medications when I can.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

When we were ready for a baby, we didn’t do anything to check fertility. We just humped a lot, I mean a lot! And about every place in the house until she got a positive result the next month 🤣. We still humped a lot.

We decided it would later be far easier for me to get snipped. Now we don't have to worry about anything and still hump a lot 😂


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> All you NFP haters can kiss my rear. I like my woman all natural, organic, no artificial hormones and I like a FULL (and wonderful) exchange of bodily fluids (no “barrier”) 😉.
> 
> I literally think there is something in my ejaculate that calms/relaxes/completes my wife too (and there are even studies that appear to corroborate this- go look).
> 
> Sterilization is nothing more than a mutilation of a working sexual system and should not be allowed per the Hippocrates Oath “do no harm”.


I don't see anything in my faith that forbids the prayerful planning of children. I was so fertile that I could easily have ended up with 15-20 children being that I married at 19. Being that we only had a small 3 bedroom house that would have been total madness. 
I also found that my few years on the pill helped a lot with very irregular periods because even when I came off they always stayed regular. They also helped alleviate bad headaches I had previously had during the periods. 
First husband had a vascectomy once we had three we wanted so no more need to use any birth control.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I used the book, "Taking charge of your fertility" and I was successful at charting. I used it for months after stopping birth control pills. I needed a hormone free BC because artificial hormones were affecting my mental health. I got pregnant when we planned to get pregnant. I used it before and after our first child. We relaxed a little bit, a year later, and got pregnant with my second child. I resumed using it after my second pregnancy, until my husband had a vasectomy done. 

For me it worked because I had (and still have) very regular cycles. 

It didn't bother us to not have PIV sex during fertile days. We did other stuff. I felt so much better mentally and emotionally. I knew I had to be very disciplined while charting. I took my temperature every single morning. I tracked my cervical fluid and cervical position every day as well. This method is not for someone who is not disciplined. It's not hard because it only takes a few minutes every morning and a few minutes through out the day to track cervical fluid. 

I think every woman should learn how to chart her cycle. I know I'm going to teach my daughter how to do it, she should know it for her own health.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Is anyone so trusting of pharmaceuticals such that you want to get on one at age 18 and continue until age 45 with maybe a few times off in between?

Can someone explain how that’s a good idea?

Who makes the stuff- Pfizer?? The government will probably be trying to mandate birth control pills next. 😆


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

My wife and I used that method for the majority of our marriage. 

She can't use hormonal birth control and a copper IUD didn't work for her either (I also don't like the idea of either of those being in her body long-term), condoms suck and she has her own issues with them, and she has some good ol' Catholic/psycho upbringing guilt-tripping about how sex should always be open to procreation, abortifacients, etc., among other non-religious things that factored in.

So, we did as (some of) the Catholics do. I don't recall her ever complaining about it, abstaining during the fertile windows wasn't a big deal, and she didn't have any unintentional pregnancies while using that method properly. 

Some of her pregnancies have happened very easily, sometimes it took a while, and we went through a period of ending up in fertility treatments (all of which failed), then she went on to have several more naturally conceived pregnancies, and she's had more miscarriages than live births. So that was kind of a crapshoot but a woman knowing their cycles would usually help with both preventing and conceiving.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Do you let your sons take steroids? I mean, you’re cool with hormones right? It’d sure help them in sports- maybe get them a scholarship.


I am highly selective about medications. Taking birth control pills, which have a long history and even have some health benefits, is not the same as taking performance enhancing hormones. Furthermore, steroids are proven to have all sorts of negative side effects. 
The reason I asked the question is due to your comment about "all natural" and "organic" as your reason for not wanting your wife to take hormonal birth control. Comparing taking steroids to taking birth control pills is silly. Not all hormones are the same. Would you take insulin if you had type 2 diabetes?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> You’re literally the third person to crack this joke….


It’s not a joke. It’s fact.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> It’s not a joke. It’s fact.


This is a thread jack. It's not a fact. For example, I didn't become pregnant because of NFP. I became pregnant because my form of birth control failed. I used birth control and I used it properly, but it failed. It wasn't NFP that got me pregnant. It was NFP that told me I was pregnant, because I knew when I was fertile and my charts told me exactly when to expect my period. For couple that use NFP, and are able to abstain during the fertile phase, it is highly effective.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Werent you going to have a child between you?


We weren't really planning at that stage but with the baby coming, I shaped up a lot and it set things in motion.

We were doing okay but weren't married yet and I wasn't that ambitious until I knew I was responsible for a life coming into the world.

I didn't start going to church until two or three years later and it took a while longer to become a Christian.

So we weren't planning him but he changed our lives for the better and we have been really blessed with him.🙂


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

NFP is good for breastfeeding mothers who don't want to subject their child to hormonal birth control through their milk. I found that I was able to track my fertility extremely well using this method, even though my periods were irregular, I always knew where I was in my cycle due to my charts. Charting is a daily activity that shows where a woman is in her cycle. It's pretty cool. I was never so aware of what my body was doing as I was when I was charting.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> All you NFP haters can kiss my rear. I like my woman all natural, organic, no artificial hormones and I like a FULL (and wonderful) exchange of bodily fluids (no “barrier”) 😉.
> 
> I literally think there is something in my ejaculate that calms/relaxes/completes my wife too (and there are even studies that appear to corroborate this- go look).
> 
> Sterilization is nothing more than a mutilation of a working sexual system and should not be allowed per the Hippocrates Oath “do no harm”.


It wasn't my path but I'm certainly not against it so I'm glad you are sharing about it.

My kiddo already has a fourth grandkiddo on the way though so if they don't use something besides NFP, I'm probably going to have a dozen or two!😵‍💫


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Cynthia said:


> It should also be noted that CatholicDad has ten children and says this method works great.
> 
> It's not that this method doesn't work. It is highly effective for those who can practice abstinence during the fertile phase, but I don't think many couples are able to do that.


 Only ten? I went to grade school and my best pal was one of 14 and one of my classmates had 21 brothers and sisters. Yes, Catholic lol. Both were from farm families


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> All you NFP haters can kiss my rear. I like my woman all natural, organic, no artificial hormones and I like a FULL (and wonderful) exchange of bodily fluids (no “barrier”) 😉.
> 
> I literally think there is something in my ejaculate that calms/relaxes/completes my wife too (and there are even studies that appear to corroborate this- go look).
> 
> Sterilization is nothing more than a mutilation of a working sexual system and should not be allowed per the Hippocrates Oath “do no harm”.


For some reason this post grossed me out.

And for the record not all women want to be breeders for years and years and years.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Is anyone so trusting of pharmaceuticals such that you want to get on one at age 18 and continue until age 45 with maybe a few times off in between?
> 
> Can someone explain how that’s a good idea?
> 
> Who makes the stuff- Pfizer?? The government will probably be trying to mandate birth control pills next. 😆


This is silly. 

If a couple is done having kids, get a vasectomy. No one needs to be on the pill for decades. There are other options.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

If people want to practice NFP due to a religious ideology or belief system that is their choice and perogative. 

But it should not be confused with contraception and it should not be used by people who should not or do not want to have children. 

The very word contraception means in opposition to or in contrast to conception. In NFP there is nothing opposing or preventing conception. It is merely selective abstinence. 

It is not actual contraception or birth control as there is nothing interfering with or preventing conception should sex occur. 

I suppose one could call it Comparative Birth Reduction as if a couple were to practice it meticulously 100% of the time, they theoretically may have fewer children over the course of their lifetime than if they were to do nothing. But assuming they are healthy, fertile and reasonably sexually active, they most assuredly WILL have children. 

so if it is part of an ideology and religious practice and couples are physically healthy enough to have children and are financially secure enough to support and care for them and they go into with the understanding that they WILL be having a number of children throughout their fertile years, then that is their choice. 

But for people who should not have children for whatever reason be it physical, financial or whatever reason, or people that do not want them, NFP should not be considered a means of actual contraception because it is not contraception.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

I’m gonna say something here and I hope it isn’t off base….. but using this method and then worrying around the fertile time….. why not just pull out during the fertile time? It’s actually fairly simple to do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I’m gonna say something here and I hope it isn’t off base….. but using this method and then worrying around the fertile time….. why not just pull out during the fertile time? It’s actually fairly simple to do.


I have a 20 year old and 17 year old reminders that pull outs don't work either LOL


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I’m gonna say something here and I hope it isn’t off base….. but using this method and then worrying around the fertile time….. why not just pull out during the fertile time? It’s actually fairly simple to do.


The pull-out method shouldn't be relied on. It's easy to mess up the timing (you have to pull out far sooner than you think) or wait too long to pull out. There can also be sperm in pre-cum. My wife got pregnant from us having sex once that month, for maybe a minute then calling it quits with no "finish" so...

I do know people who have used that method for many years with no failures but it certainly shouldn't be relied on.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

I feel like oral and anal might be more effective than this method.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

thunderchad said:


> I feel like oral and anal might be more effective than this method.


Yeah because those are so fun for women.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> Yeah because those are so fun for women.


.
I guess it depends on the person.

My wife says she cums better with anal vs vaginal.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

thunderchad said:


> I feel like oral and anal might be more effective than this method.


That's why it's effective. You don't do PIV during ovulation, but you can do everything else!


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I’m gonna say something here and I hope it isn’t off base….. but using this method and then worrying around the fertile time….. why not just pull out during the fertile time? It’s actually fairly simple to do.


The pull out method is less effective than condoms, diaphragm, or other non-hormonal methods.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Cynthia said:


> The pull out method is less effective than condoms, diaphragm, or other non-hormonal methods.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


How does one maintain discipline to pull out LOL.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> I am highly selective about medications. Taking birth control pills, which have a long history and even have some health benefits, is not the same as taking performance enhancing hormones. Furthermore, steroids are proven to have all sorts of negative side effects.
> The reason I asked the question is due to your comment about "all natural" and "organic" as your reason for not wanting your wife to take hormonal birth control. Comparing taking steroids to taking birth control pills is silly. Not all hormones are the same. Would you take insulin if you had type 2 diabetes?


Please read this… interesting!









Women's Brains on Steroids


Birth control pills appear to remodel brain structure




www.scientificamerican.com


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Feast your birth control pill loving eyes on this article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you stop using inflammatory language? People have a difficult time having a decent discussion with someone whi isn't communicating respectfully. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> It wasn't my path but I'm certainly not against it so I'm glad you are sharing about it.
> 
> My kiddo already has a fourth grandkiddo on the way though so if they don't use something besides NFP, I'm probably going to have a dozen or two!😵‍💫


As one of the smarter and more reasonable men on here this seems like a very good thing for the world…. congrats! You must have shown kiddo love such that he/she wants to pass it on.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> Can you stop using inflammatory language? People have a difficult time having a decent discussion with someone whi isn't communicating respectfully.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Sorry! Edited. I’m always inflamed- even with myself!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

bobert said:


> My wife and I used that method for the majority of our marriage.
> 
> She can't use hormonal birth control and a copper IUD didn't work for her either (I also don't like the idea of either of those being in her body long-term), condoms suck and she has her own issues with them, and she has some good ol' Catholic/psycho upbringing guilt-tripping about how sex should always be open to procreation, abortifacients, etc., among other non-religious things that factored in.
> 
> ...


It ain’t psycho being open to babies and life…. unless you’re a psycho.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> How does one maintain discipline to pull out LOL.


You'd be surprised. 


It's funny...... when a person (me) has only slept with one person his entire life, you slowly start to learn the "weird" thing you do is not exactly done by the rest of the humans on the planet.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Google searches reveal all kinds of stuff that would have me concerned about my wife taking birth control pills.









Birth Control Pill Could Cause Long-Term Problems With Testosterone


Researchers have published a new investigation measuring sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) before and after discontinuation of the oral contraceptive pill.




www.medicalnewstoday.com


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I have a 20 year old and 17 year old reminders that pull outs don't work either LOL


Ok, you’re dogging on NFP but a user of the pull out method- that’s so scientific. 😆


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> How does one maintain discipline to pull out LOL.


Hang a picture of your ugliest child on the headboard and look up at it immediately before climax. 😆


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

No one is going to read my articles are they? Let’s go back to when @Livvie was grossed out and @thunderchad was talking about the “anal” method of contraception. 😆


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I won’t argue that birth control pills are not bad for one’s health. So are a lot of medicine. Could be the positives outweigh the negatives sometimes.
Your statement that getting one’s tubes tied or a vasectomy is “mutilation”…..
CD, really now? That’s so illogical.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Not all of us are interested in the possibility of having some unknown number of children. I certainly wasn’t.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> You’re literally the third person to crack this joke….


But my accent makes it funnier than everyone else’s.😂😂😂


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

When I was married to my ex, she practiced a very successful method of Natural Family Planning.

She just abstained from sex for 28 days of her 28 day cycle.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> It ain’t psycho being open to babies and life…. unless you’re a psycho.


If a couple chooses, for themselves, to leave sex always open to procreation that's fine. Earlier in our marriage my wife and I didn't have a set number of kids we wanted and we were (or I was at least) more "if it happens, it happens".

What isn't fine, is hammering into children and teens that sex must always be open to procreation, that birth control/condoms are bad, and that if a couple isn't willing to risk pregnancy they aren't fully committed to each other, aren't giving themselves fully to one another, and don't fully love each other. That is damaging and can cause a lot of problems.

I could go on and on about the **** my wife was taught from her "Catholic" mother and the Catholic high school we went to, but thats not the point of this thread.

I'm aware not all Catholics teach that way. The psychos do. Originally my "psycho" comment was about my wife's mother who is absolutely insane, but nah. If someone is hammering into young teens that they shouldn't even hold hands or kiss until marriage, and also taking those same teenage girls for abortions, they're a psycho.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Ok, you’re dogging on NFP but a user of the pull out method- that’s so scientific. 😆


It’s still a bona fide failure of Vatican approved methodology. 

My wife decided it was time to go off BC and let happen what will happen and went off BC.

I was consenting in the general sense but wanted to put off the inevitable as long as possible. 

She would call me at work to tell me her temp was up so I would unload the gun in the bathroom at work before going home. 

I would pull out. I would maneuver the situation into a BJ and then say we could try again another time.

And yes there were even times a faked it. Guys can and do fake too but I don’t know how convincing I was. 

But, I now have a 20 year old and a 17 year to testify to the effectiveness of my efforts.

After 2 horrific and health/life threatening pregnancies and premature births, I took responsibility of my own reproductivity and pulled the plug and had my plumbing disconnected.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i guess i am not understanding this whole thread.
Sure, not all women can take birth control...some have counterindications from previous conditions, such as forming blood clotts. 

but why do a rhythm method? if you are going to do that, how about just have a witch doctor wave some amulet overy your private parts...it will be as effective.

if you really need some not medical birth control, get a frigin condom. and if the sucess rate of a condom alone is not high enough for you, add some spermicidal foam as a backup to the condom.

end of story.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Talker67 said:


> i guess i am not understanding this whole thread.
> Sure, not all women can take birth control...some have counterindications from previous conditions, such as forming blood clotts.
> 
> but why do a rhythm method? if you are going to do that, how about just have a witch doctor wave some amulet overy your private parts...it will be as effective.
> ...


You seem to have missed the posts that have said it is effective when used properly. 

If a woman doesn't have sex during or near her fertile window, she isn't going to get pregnant. End of story.

And just an FYI, some women can't use spermicide products either.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Every couple I know that used NFP had unplanned pregnancies.

Any method that requires the person to do something and follow a procedure is going to have a very high risk of failing. It seems that of all the forms of birth control, or family planning, NFP has the greatest chance for "user error." The less you have to do the better.

There is a very effective non-hormonal, non barrier birth control. The copper IUD. The copper is toxic to sperm and prevents an egg from implanting. It can be left in for up to 10 years and they are 99% effective.

@CatholicDad Your comparison of the birth control pill to performance enhancing steroids is pretty ridiculous. PEDs raise your testosterone levels to unnatural levels and they cause your body to stop producing its own testosterone. The birth control pill does neither.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

bobert said:


> You seem to have missed the posts that have said it is effective when used properly.
> 
> If a woman doesn't have sex during or near her fertile window, she isn't going to get pregnant. End of story.
> 
> And just an FYI, some women can't use spermicide products either.


She might get pregnant. Let's say you have sex on day 7 of her cycle. She's temping, tracking, but ovulation comes _unexpectedly early_ that month, but she doesn't realize it until 2 days later after sex on day 9 and oh **** sperm can live for days. If you are off by even 12 hours there could be a sperm waiting at the gate the second ovulation occurs and boom pregnancy.

It's not exact how long sperm can live and exactly when you are going to ovulate or even how long that egg is viable.

To be really safe you would have to abstain for about 2 weeks every cycle which is half of your life.

I know 2 people who got unexpectedly pregnant, caught by early ovulation. One was still spotting after her period but ovulated anyway. The body can do wacky unpredictable things sometimes. Her husband was in disbelief and made her take a ton of home tests while waiting for a doc appointment to confirm.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> You seem to have missed the posts that have said it is effective when used properly.
> 
> If a woman doesn't have sex during or near her fertile window, she isn't going to get pregnant. End of story.
> 
> And just an FYI, some women can't use spermicide products either.


No it’s not the end of the story. 

Not every women ovulates like clock work. Not every woman is able to track her subtle signs of ovulation with a high degree of accuracy. 

Sperm can live and be viable for various lengths of time inside a woman. 

There are a million different factors and moving parts that can foil trying to predict periods of high fertility.

In the rest of the mammalian world, ovulation/estrus is readily apparent to both the male and female of that species.

Humans have covert ovulation which is not apparent to either males or the woman herself. 

There is no 100 % prediction of ovulation. 

NFP can theoretically REDUCE the number of pregnancies that a person may have over time, but it will not prevent them. 

NFP is not contraception. That is why the guy with the funny hat at the Vatican says it’s ok.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> NFP can theoretically REDUCE the number of pregnancies that a person may have over time, but it will not prevent them.


For example, if Catholic Dad had not used NFP, he may have a dozen or 15 kids by now instead of only 10.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> For example, if Catholic Dad had not used NFP, he may have a dozen or 15 kids by now instead of only 10.


Seeing as that method has been used in my marriage and there were no unplanned pregnancies during that time, yes it did prevent pregnancies.

Same goes for CatholicDad. If all of his children were conceived intentionally, not "we were doing NFP but another baby was in God's plan", then it worked for him and his wife regardless of how many kids he has.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

The term Natural Family Planning (NFP) should be changed to - Planning Big Family (PBF)


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Not every women ovulates like clock work. Not every woman is able to track her subtle signs of ovulation with a high degree of accuracy.


NFP is highly accurate at tracking fertility when done right. NFP is also used by couples suffering from any type of fertility issues because of its accuracy. 

Fertility specialist teach women how to track fertility to figure out what the problem is. Because tracking and charting is accurate.

Believe it or not, it takes the right amount of female and male hormones to release an egg, have the perfect environment for egg survival, conception and implantation. It seems very easy to get pregnant, but it's not. Most people don't realize how the human body works and the perfection it takes to accomplish a successful pregnancy. 

People use NFP to avoid pregnancy or to get pregnant. It's very accurate when done right. It's not 100% effective, but other types of birth control aren't either.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

pastasauce79 said:


> NFP is highly accurate at tracking fertility when done right. NFP is also used by couples suffering from any type of fertility issues because of its accuracy.
> 
> Fertility specialist teach women how to track fertility to figure out what the problem is. Because tracking and charting is accurate.
> 
> ...


NFP is probably the least effective method known out there. Everything is based on IF done right.

When a guy gets heavy in action, pulling out in time can be very difficult. If the lady is on top, she probably won't get off in time. Pre-cum often contains sperm. Ovulation times are often unpredictable. 

If you use this method, you can expect an unexpected pregnancy. It might take a little longer than if you are actually trying to conceive. But the problem is that people become very comfortable thinking they know what they are doing 

There are too many different forms of birth control to take NFP as a serious form of birth control.


----------



## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> NFP is probably the least effective method known out there. Everything is based on IF done right.
> 
> When a guy gets heavy in action, pulling out in time can be very difficult. If the lady is on top, she probably won't get off in time. Pre-cum often contains sperm. Ovulation times are often unpredictable.
> 
> ...


You obviously have no clue about how NFP works. 

Again, fertility SPECIALISTS use NFP to track fertility because it works.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

pastasauce79 said:


> People use NFP to avoid pregnancy or to get pregnant. It's very accurate when done right. It's not 100% effective, but other types of birth control aren't either.


My point is PBF is not contraception AT ALL. It does nothing to block, prevent or interfere with the fertilization process at all. 

You might get away with it on any given episode. But as there is nothing actually preventing pregnancy, pregnancy WILL occur at various points over time. 

Humans are fallible and do not employ the practices of PBF each and every time. People will screw up. 

And even if someone were to be sincere and do their due diligence, at some point they will misread a sign or be off on a calendar or any one of a million other moving parts and a pregnancies will occur. 

PBF is not contraception and not a valid means of preventing unwanted pregnancies.

It may theoretically reduce the number of pregnancies over a given period of time, but will not prevent them.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't have a problem with NFP. I don't even have an opinion, really. No dog in the hunt.

I do like to look at it from a behavioral economics perspective, or perhaps human factors. As an engineer, we learn one way or another that if you design something to be easy to use incorrectly, or hard to use right, people will screw it up. Not every person, and not every time, but enough of them, and often. 

So even if NFP when followed religiously(!) can be effective, it is against human nature to be that rigid in our married sexual practice. Now add the extra wrinkle that you're denying your body what it wants when it wants it the most? Lots of folks are going to find that too high a hill to climb.

For those of us who need our partners to have as much desire as they can possibly muster? Thanks, I'll take the vasectomy.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

pastasauce79 said:


> Again, fertility SPECIALISTS use NFP to track fertility because it works.


Fertility specialist use these systems to OPTIMIZE the chances of fertilization. Those systems were designed as a means to provide the greatest chance of conceiving. 

Ask those same fertility specialists if PBF is a reliable means of contraception for people that should not or do want to become pregnant and they will tell you that NO it is NOT a reliable form of preventing unwanted pregnancy.


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

oldshirt said:


> Fertility specialist use these systems to OPTIMIZE the chances of fertilization. Those systems were designed as a means to provide the greatest chance of conceiving.
> 
> Ask those same fertility specialists if PBF is a reliable means of contraception for people that should not or do want to become pregnant and they will tell you that NO it is NOT a reliable form of preventing unwanted pregnancy.


This is exactly it is for, to help a couple learn when they have the best chance to conceive. 

If you are wanting to avoid pregnancy, I HIGHLY recommend you do not rely on this method. There are so many medical articles out there that are complete nonsense. My doctor told me the internet is a double edge sword. There is some good advice, strange and silly advice, and some is downright dangerous. 

I am not saying this is dangerous advice. But if you do not want to get pregnant, or are not in a good place to have a baby. I strongly suggest you find some other method. Guys are not always successful at pulling out. 

To me, this method is about as bad as people on other websites suggesting to use CBD as a treatment for cancer. And yes, I realize pregnancy and cancer aren't the same. But its the strategy that is given that makes you shake your head. If you decide to use this method, you can expect to get pregnant as many people have learned.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> This is exactly it is for, to help a couple learn when they have the best chance to conceive.


I want to add upon this theme a bit more.

The fertility specialists have devised systems to give people the best chance of conception during the times of highest fertility by tracking cycles, temperatures, mucus etc etc

But that does not mean that at a time of non optimum fertility that conception can’t occur. 

Again, humans have covert ovulation. Even the individual female herself will not always know when she is ovulating and people’s ovaries and eggs and sperm do not always read the books or follow the rules. 

Body temp fluctuates moment by moment depending on activity levels, hydration levels, general health, time of day, nutritional status, temperature of the environment etc etc etc

The same is true with mucus levels.

menstrual and ovulation cycles are not always like clockwork in most women and can again fluctuate depending on a multitude of factors like general health, nutrition status, stress, age exercise etc etc etc 

There are a million factors and moving parts and probability of making a mistake even if they are exercising due diligence is very high. 

Again, PBF may theoretically reduce the number of pregnancies over a period of time if utilized perfectly 100% of time, but it is not to be considered as a reliable form of birth control for those who do not want or should not become pregnant.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Livvie said:


> For some reason this post grossed me out.
> 
> And for the record not all women want to be breeders for years and years and years.


Honestly, calling women breeders grossed me out. It is an offensive term. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, one of the leaders of the women’s suffragette movement, had six children, which is why Susan B. Anthony is the one who did the traveling. Every time Elizabeth Cady Stanton had a baby, she raised a flag of celebration in her front yard.



CatholicDad said:


> No one is going to read my articles are they?


I’ve read them. I can’t comment on everything. I’ve got an actual life. Breaking apart an article to comment on it is very time consuming. However, I will say that I could post a bunch of articles of pregnancy related issues as well. Everything has risk. We have to decide what is best for ourselves and our families. It is good to be aware of the pros and cons and make informed decision. Personally, I didn’t like to be on hormonal birth control and didn’t want any methods that would scrape away an already conceived zygote, as I value human life in every stage. I also have no problem with people who have large families. There are many large families in my extended family.



Talker67 said:


> i guess i am not understanding this whole thread.
> Sure, not all women can take birth control...some have counterindications from previous conditions, such as forming blood clotts.
> 
> but why do a rhythm method? if you are going to do that, how about just have a witch doctor wave some amulet overy your private parts...it will be as effective.
> ...


Did you even read the OP? We are NOT talking about the rhythm method. NFP is NOT the rhythm method. Your post shows that you know nothing about NFP.

Furthermore, many people do use condoms when also practicing NFP.



Livvie said:


> She might get pregnant. Let's say you have sex on day 7 of her cycle. She's temping, tracking, but ovulation comes _unexpectedly early_ that month, but she doesn't realize it until 2 days later after sex on day 9 and oh **** sperm can live for days. If you are off by even 12 hours there could be a sperm waiting at the gate the second ovulation occurs and boom pregnancy.
> 
> It's not exact how long sperm can live and exactly when you are going to ovulate or even how long that egg is viable.
> 
> ...


That’s not how NFP works. If ovulation comes unexpectedly early, there will be obvious signs that let the woman know when she is ovulating, down to within hours. This will be apparent from the information on the chart. Charting is done daily. It takes months to be able to accurately predict ovulation. It is based on the woman’s own data, not a on a set of data relating to other women.

It’s been 20 years since I used NFP, so I don’t recall specifics, but sperm can live for a while before ovulation. This is taken into account. The fertile phase includes this time before ovulation that the sperm can survive until ovulation.



oldshirt said:


> Not every women ovulates like clock work. Not every woman is able to track her subtle signs of ovulation with a high degree of accuracy.


NFP tracks physical changes. It doesn’t require a woman to ovulate “like clockwork,” otherwise there would be no point in taking one’s temperature, checking cervical fluid, etc. Following the procedures allows a woman to know what her body is doing with a high degree of accuracy. It worked for me when I was breastfeeding, which is notorious for irregular cycles.




oldshirt said:


> There are a million different factors and moving parts that can foil trying to predict periods of high fertility.


Again, all of this shows up in charting. It is individual to each woman.



oldshirt said:


> Humans have covert ovulation which is not apparent to either males or the woman herself.
> 
> There is no 100 % prediction of ovulation.
> 
> ...


Ovulation can be predicted with a high degree of accuracy. There is no 100% anything. Even vasectomy can fail. No one is saying that NFP is 100% accurate.

Pretty sure no one said that NFP is contraception.

There are people on this thread who have used NFP successfully and not had any pregnancies due to NFP, including me. I was using NFP, when I got pregnant, but I deliberately chose to engage with my husband and we used contraception, which failed. So, in my case, it was contraception that failed, not NFP.

I agree that it isn’t a good method for a lot of people, because it’s hard to not have intercourse during the fertile phase. But there are a lot of people who are not finished making babies that have problems with the most effective contraception methods, therefore, a combination of NFP and other less effective contraceptive methods are better than nothing. (I’m not saying the NFP is a contraceptive method, but am comparing actual contraceptive to each other.) And for some couples, NFP works great alone. They choose to engage sexually without intercourse or they abstain. Obviously, it’s not for everyone, but it is a good option for many people.



ThatDarnGuy! said:


> NFP is probably the least effective method known out there. Everything is based on IF done right.


Regarding everything being done right, the same can be said for contraception, even the birth control pill, which has to be taken at about the same time every day. I know a woman who got pregnant while on the pill, when she was traveling in a different time zone. People get pregnant using condoms, diaphragms, foam, jelly, etc. I even know someone who got pregnant with an IUD. In fact, I know several people who got pregnant while on the pill. People get pregnant on contraception all the time.



ThatDarnGuy! said:


> When a guy gets heavy in action, pulling out in time can be very difficult. If the lady is on top, she probably won't get off in time. Pre-cum often contains sperm. Ovulation times are often unpredictable.


I’m confused about what you’re getting at here. You seem to be equating pulling out with NFP. Ovulation is predictable with NFP. That is the point of NFP. You can’t judge based on when you think your period is coming. It’s based on data collected daily and charted. There is an actual piece of paper with plot points that data is entered onto daily.



ThatDarnGuy! said:


> If you use this method, you can expect an unexpected pregnancy. It might take a little longer than if you are actually trying to conceive. But the problem is that people become very comfortable thinking they know what they are doing
> 
> There are too many different forms of birth control to take NFP as a serious form of birth control.


There is a learning curve with NFP. It takes several months before a woman can accurately determine where she is in her cycle. People become comfortable when they know what they are doing and they are paying attention to what they are doing. If someone slacks off, then they are not practicing NFP. This can happen with practically anything, including the pill.

NFP isn’t a form of birth control. It is a highly accurate method for tracking fertility that can be used to make choices about whether or not to engage in intercourse during the fertile phase or not and whether or not use a form of birth control during the fertile phase.



oldshirt said:


> PBF is not contraception and not a valid means of preventing unwanted pregnancies.
> 
> It may theoretically reduce the number of pregnancies over a given period of time, but will not prevent them.


You are correct that NFP isn’t contraception. It is a way that a woman can know when she is and is not fertile. NFP doesn’t cause or prevent pregnancy, but the choices one makes based on tracked fertility can help them cause or prevent pregnancy. It is highly accurate for predicting fertility.


----------



## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

We used NFP for 13 years and never got pregnant except when we chose too. Three kids chosen exactly.

We did get unexpectedly pregnant after my husband had a vasectomy. We were told it had worked. I have the letter saying he was sterile!

He has had a 2nd vasectomy since though (they took more this time) we just cant handle nfp anymore. It's so restrictive if you really can't have any more kids. 

We used condoms when I was fertile but it's easy to make mistakes in the heat of the moment and condoms are rubbish for him. 

With Nfp you often end up with only a week or less as i have a very short luteal phase

I do like knowing my body better and am glad i haven't had to go on the pill with all the side effects. I would probs have got fat, moody and spotty .

I do worry about the vasectomy and the second one but i have had a very religious upbringing.

And our sex life was pretty rubbish I feel like NFP fed into my control issues and desire issues. Easy to say not tonight i'm too fertile or worried I might be fertile etc.

But it definitely works if you do it properly. Problem is to do it properly you have to not be that horny!!


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Again, PBF may theoretically reduce the number of pregnancies over a period of time if utilized perfectly 100% of time, but it is not to be considered as a reliable form of birth control for those who do not want or should not become pregnant.


What is PBF? You keep using this term, but this thread is about NFP.


----------



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

you guys are cracking me up.
nfp measures temperature and uses a calander. i.e. rhythm method. 
you can call it whatever ******** name you want to call it, it is the same as 50 years ago, AND hit or miss


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Cynthia said:


> Honestly, calling women breeders grossed me out. It is an offensive term. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, one of the leaders of the women’s suffragette movement, had six children, which is why Susan B. Anthony is the one who did the traveling. Every time Elizabeth Cady Stanton had a baby, she raised a flag of celebration in her front yard.
> 
> 
> I’ve read them. I can’t comment on everything. I’ve got an actual life. Breaking apart an article to comment on it is very time consuming. However, I will say that I could post a bunch of articles of pregnancy related issues as well. Everything has risk. We have to decide what is best for ourselves and our families. It is good to be aware of the pros and cons and make informed decision. Personally, I didn’t like to be on hormonal birth control and didn’t want any methods that would scrape away an already conceived zygote, as I value human life in every stage. I also have no problem with people who have large families. There are many large families in my extended family.
> ...


You make really good points and seem to be very knowledgeable about this. 

I will say that I could see this working for someone like you who would stay on top of it. But I believe for a lot of people, they are playing with fire. There are a lot of Ifs, predicting, and looking for signs for something like this to work. 

I just say that if you aren't in a position to get pregnant or don't want to get pregnant, I would look into other methods before using this method.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> But that does not mean that at a time of non optimum fertility that conception can’t occur.


True enough. Detecting when you are most fertile is not the same as detecting when you are not fertile.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> What is PBF? You keep using this term, but this thread is about NFP.


PBF = Planning Big Family 

It is a more accurate term for NFP 😉


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Cynthia said:


> What is PBF? You keep using this term, but this thread is about NFP.


Just a guess but PBF - Pobable Baby Factory 🤣

NFP - Newly Formed Problem 🤣


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Fly With Me said:


> We used condoms when I was fertile but it's easy to make mistakes in the heat of the moment and condoms are rubbish for him.


#1 is getting pre-ejaculate on the outside of it putting it on backwards at first. I do that sometimes but my wife is on the pill so I don’t care.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> you guys are cracking me up.
> nfp measures temperature and uses a calander. i.e. rhythm method.
> you can call it whatever ****** name you want to call it, it is the same as 50 years ago, AND hit or miss


You are right that the rhythm method is a calendar based method, but you are wrong that NFP also uses a calendar. It does not. NFP and the rhythm method are not the same. Clearly, you haven't studied NFP.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> you guys are cracking me up.
> nfp measures temperature and uses a calander. i.e. rhythm method.
> you can call it whatever ****** name you want to call it, it is the same as 50 years ago, AND hit or miss


Not exactly.

While I agree that in actual practice by actual humans, it will be more hit and miss than not.

However I will concede that what Cynthia is talking about is tracking various actual bio markers of ovulation like body temp, mucus production etc rather than just marking days on a calendar.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> PBF = Planning Big Family


Yet several people here have used that method and didn't have a large family while using it. Hmm... 🤔


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think one we all need to be aware of whether we believe in PBF or artificial contraception is that no matter what methods we use, Mother Nature laughs at OUR plans. 

Earlier in the thread @Cynthia said it was actually hard to get pregnant. 

That only seems true if you are wanting to get pregnant on YOUR time table. If you want to get pregnant at a particular time so you can have Baby at a particular time in your life, Mother Nature laughs.

If there is a time you are not wanting to have kids and want to at some other time in your life, Mother Nature will again laugh and say, “I’ll show you who’s really in charge.” 

Both natural and artificial methods can and will fail in actual practice by actual humans. 

I am living proof the pill is not 100% effective and my mom never let me forget it. She was 38 years old, peri menopausal and on the pill which was probably 100 times stronger back in those days.

She wasn’t even on the pill for contraception as she had ovarian cysts and that is how it was treated in 1964 (maybe still is). 

Additionally, my father had been declared unable to father children due to childhood measles and low sperm count. But both my sister and I look just like him so the theory of “it only takes one” is valid. 

My 2 kids are testimony that natural methods will fail. 

People that are physiologically fertile and at least somewhat sexually active, will likely get pregnant a some point(s) during the course of their lives whether they are trying to or not. 

The key point to me however is if someone does NOT want to get pregnant or have been advised by their physician that they should not become pregnant, PBF is not a reliable form of contraception in actual practice at all and should not be solely relied upon to avoid pregnancy. 

It’s fine to follow its methodology if you want, but it should not be relied upon and additional measures should be employed in addition to PBF.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> While I agree that in actual practice by actual humans, it will be more hit and miss than not.
> 
> However I will concede that what Cynthia is talking about is tracking various actual bio markers of ovulation like body temp, mucus production etc rather than just marking days on a calendar.


That's exactly what I'm talking about! That's what charting is all about!

It's a method to predict fertility. It's very accurate. Women use that method (the TCOYF method) to avoid pregnancy or to conceive.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds









Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds


Researchers have found that a method of natural family planning that uses two indicators to identify the fertile phase in a woman's menstrual cycle is as effective as the contraceptive pill for avoiding unplanned pregnancies if used correctly, according to a report published online in Europe's...



www.sciencedaily.com





I have read that the failure rate _in general _ is about 25%, but this study in a peer reviewed journal shows that using a 2 indicator NFP method is not all that bad.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Earlier in the thread @Cynthia said it was actually hard to get pregnant.


Just to set the record straight, it wasn't me who said that. It is true for some people, but definitely not everyone.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

My ex didn't ever want to get pregnant but had to go off the pill for health reasons. She just then stopped having sex and that seemed to work well...for her at least!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Every couple I know that used NFP had unplanned pregnancies.
> 
> Any method that requires the person to do something and follow a procedure is going to have a very high risk of failing. It seems that of all the forms of birth control, or family planning, NFP has the greatest chance for "user error." The less you have to do the better.
> 
> ...


Read the articles I attached above 👆


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> you guys are cracking me up.
> nfp measures temperature and uses a calander. i.e. rhythm method.
> you can call it whatever ****** name you want to call it, it is the same as 50 years ago, AND hit or miss


No, it’s not the rhythm method.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Natural Family Planning Method As Effective As Contraceptive Pill, New Research Finds
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!!! We’ll said and even a link!!


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

One last endorsement- my wife and I love NFP. It worked very well for us. We chose to have ten kids but easily could have not. We’re married almost thirty years.

But heck, maybe you love pharmaceuticals, “barriers”, pulling out… whatever it is- I don’t care.

If you hate the church- I don’t care… your loss…


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I think one we all need to be aware of whether we believe in PBF or artificial contraception is that no matter what methods we use, Mother Nature laughs at OUR plans.
> 
> Earlier in the thread @Cynthia said it was actually hard to get pregnant.
> 
> ...


PBF? We’re talking NFP and everyone knows the pull out method sucks. Thanks for sharing the “conceived on the pill” story- you’re apparently the miracle man… God wanted you to live, my brother!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> My ex didn't ever want to get pregnant but had to go off the pill for health reasons. She just then stopped having sex and that seemed to work well...for her at least!


Maybe NFP could have calmed her fears and helped your marriage…?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I won’t argue that birth control pills are not bad for one’s health. So are a lot of medicine. Could be the positives outweigh the negatives sometimes.
> Your statement that getting one’s tubes tied or a vasectomy is “mutilation”…..
> CD, really now? That’s so illogical.


Sorry, it’s very logical. Your “nut tubes” work when you go in- and don’t work when you go out. Doctor cuts said tubes with a pair of snips…. I prefer to NOT have spermatozoa in my bloodstream…


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I prefer to NOT have spermatozoa in my bloodstream…


Oi. That is not how it works.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry, it’s very logical. Your “nut tubes” work when you go in- and don’t work when you go out. Doctor cuts said tubes with a pair of snips…. I prefer to NOT have spermatozoa in my bloodstream…


Where did you get that idea from, lol.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry, it’s very logical. Your “nut tubes” work when you go in- and don’t work when you go out. Doctor cuts said tubes with a pair of snips…. I prefer to NOT have spermatozoa in my bloodstream…


Sometimes this can cause chronic ball pain 🏀🏀🔩🥜

You can also get infected nuts 🌰🌰🤮🤮

I’ll stick with live ammo and take my chances.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Maybe NFP could have calmed her fears and helped your marriage…?


Nope as she didn't want kids and would do whatever it took not to get pregnant. Her career was more important.


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> One last endorsement- my wife and I love NFP. It worked very well for us. We chose to have ten kids but easily could have not. We’re married almost thirty years.
> 
> But heck, maybe you love pharmaceuticals, “barriers”, pulling out… whatever it is- I don’t care.
> 
> If you hate the church- I don’t care… your loss…


TEN?! Holy cow what do you and the wife do that you can afford that? Will you ever be able to retire???


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Sorry, it’s very logical. Your “nut tubes” work when you go in- and don’t work when you go out. Doctor cuts said tubes with a pair of snips…. I prefer to NOT have spermatozoa in my bloodstream…


CD bro, do you really think that? Lmbo


----------



## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Ahhh. Good ole natural family planning. Takes me back to Catholic school. 
Not to offend, but one of the many instances of the church lying.

-. Why natural family planning and not other forms of birth control? Because with NFP you are "open" to the possibility of a child.

Real answer:. We know it is simply less effective and really just want more future wallets donating to us, I mean people running around.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Middle of Everything said:


> Ahhh. Good ole natural family planning. Takes me back to Catholic school.
> Not to offend, but one of the many instances of the church lying.
> 
> -. Why natural family planning and not other forms of birth control? Because with NFP you are "open" to the possibility of a child.
> ...


Someone has to say it.


----------



## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

Cynthia said:


> It may be funny to you, but it is the main reason why NFP is not effective for most couples. God designed women to be more interested in sex when she is in her fertile phase, so it's not just a matter of self-control. It's a matter of biology.
> 
> Birth control pills may have an impact on sex drive for some women, but this is by no means universal. Furthermore, there is more to sex drive than hormones. I was on the pill for years, to manage a health matter. It did not impact my sex drive at all. I don't think it's a big factor for most women on hormonal birth control, even if it does impact drive, it's not the only factor and I don't think most couples notice any difference in their frequency due to the pill.
> 
> ...


Yup, I pop a pill daily and have for decades. I'm not even currently sexually active. But the BCP has been the most effective treatment for my PCOS, and because I seasonal cycle I've managed to reduce my hormone-related migraines. And it most definitely has not changed my sex drive one way or the other. 

NFP is a legit method for gaining knowledge about a woman's reproductive cycle. But, women's bodies are not always predictable and a lot of things can throw off a cycle, including illness and stress. So even if you are doing it perfectly and abstaining on the days you believe she is fertile you can still get it wrong. 

But @CatholicDad's insistent that hormonal birth control is evil is just ridiculous. Nobody's uterus is going to fall out from birth control. Although, there is a risk of that happening from pregnancy. 

And BCP is completely different than steroids. (Although steroids in certain cases can also be good. I am thankful for them when I have a three-day migraine and I take steroids to abort the migraine).

Please understand that your religious beliefs are just that. Beliefs. Not science. Not facts. You can make your choices based on those beliefs, but you shouldn't try to misrepresent the facts so that your beliefs sound more scientific in an attempt to manipulate other people who don't share your same beliefs.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> TEN?! Holy cow what do you and the wife do that you can afford that? Will you ever be able to retire???


I’m a decent provider and will never retire… 😢 

luckily my wife is a simple woman whose dream was to be a wife and mother… that turned into a nightmare with teens and adult children 😆


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I’m a decent provider and will never retire… 😢
> 
> luckily my wife is a simple woman whose dream was to be a wife and mother… that turned into a nightmare with teens and adult children 😆


Well, hey at least you guys have had some decent sex and have made up for those of us who haven't had any kids.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> CD bro, do you really think that? Lmbo


Where does it go? The immune system has to clean it up-right? Kind of insignificant to me as my wife has reached periomenopause.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BlueWoman said:


> Yup, I pop a pill daily and have for decades. I'm not even currently sexually active. But the BCP has been the most effective treatment for my PCOS, and because I seasonal cycle I've managed to reduce my hormone-related migraines. And it most definitely has not changed my sex drive one way or the other.
> 
> NFP is a legit method for gaining knowledge about a woman's reproductive cycle. But, women's bodies are not always predictable and a lot of things can throw off a cycle, including illness and stress. So even if you are doing it perfectly and abstaining on the days you believe she is fertile you can still get it wrong.
> 
> ...


You didn’t read the articles at the links above- did you?

The pill also is linked to higher risk of breast cancer… here’s another link.


“Studies show while women are taking birth control pills (and shortly after), their breast cancer risk is 20-30 percent higher than women who’ve never used the pill.”









Breast Cancer Risk: Birth Control Pills | Susan G. Komen®


Current or recent use of birth control pills is linked to a slightly increased risk of breast cancer. Learn why here.




www.komen.org





So they effect changes to testosterone, brain chemistry, and even cancer risk… I’ve not once mentioned the morality of it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I guess I’m sorry to offend people about “the pill”. My original intent was to say “I like NFP”. Admittedly, I’m a bit of a religious, organic eating, “I hate pharmaceuticals” weirdo… if anyone is like minded and looking for a marital “birth control” option- I hope they’ll consider it! I’ve found it be effective, beautiful, and true!

In fact, maybe someone might try it and say “thank you Catholic Church” and maybe wonder what other beautiful and true things they might find there! 😎


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well, hey at least you guys have had some decent sex and have made up for those of us who haven't had any kids.


Kids wreck your love life…. many kids wreck your love life absolutely.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Where does it go? The immune system has to clean it up-right? Kind of insignificant to me as my wife has reached periomenopause.


If the procedure works, the sperm are absorbed back into the body and it is harmless. The lining of the epididymis absorbs most of the sperm, which also happens if a man doesn't ejaculate for a long time. Some doctors will leave one end of the vas deferens open to let sperm leak out, others seal both ends. If the procedure doesn't work, the sperm take their normal exit. 

I don't recommend leaving one or both ends open because I had that done and now I get to go back for round two. I switched doctors and was told that method fails 5% of the time. The body wants to heal itself and keep humans reproducing, so if there is a way for those tubes to reattach, they will find it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> CD bro, do you really think that? Lmbo


Regarding vasectomy, here’s a snip from the attached article:

“According to H. J. Roberts, MD, who has done extensive research on the subject for more than 25 years, “no other operation performed on humans even approaches the degree and duration of multiple immunologic responses that occur in the post-vasectomy state.””









Long-Term Complications of Male Vasectomies - PRI


Updated January 9, 2020 Editors Note: In past issues of the Review, we have reported on the serious side effects of many forms of birth control, including Norplant and quinacrine sterilization. The following article exposes the side effects of one of the most common forms of birth control — male...




www.pop.org


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> You didn’t read the articles at the links above- did you?
> 
> The pill also is linked to higher risk of breast cancer… here’s another link.
> 
> ...


From the article you posted…
”However, this extra risk is quite small because the risk of breast cancer for most young women is low [36,38-39]. So, even with a slightly higher risk from taking the pill, most young women are unlikely to get breast cancer.”

I didn’t see anything about your claims on brain chemistry and testosterone. 

But even still. I will agree that the pill does change body chemistry. It’s designed to. But that doesn’t make it evil or bad. It’s obviously not for everyone, but for many it’s a very good tool for preventing pregnancy and treating other issues. 

For me personally, I’ve weighed the pros and cons and become educated on my own body, and have made an educated decision. 

My risk of breast cancer is very low, so the increase risk is very scary. On the other hand, my risk of ovarian cancer is higher, and the BCP has been shown to decrease that risk. (Good news for your wife, having lots of babies also decreases that risk.) 



And you don’t have to bring up the morality of it when your name has ”catholic” as part of it. 
Besides, the morality of it is the only thing you actually have any claim too. You don’t understand nor are you affected by the science of it.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

BlueWoman said:


> My risk of breast cancer is very low, so the increase risk is very scary. On the other hand, my risk of ovarian cancer is higher, and the BCP has been shown to decrease that risk. (Good news for your wife, having lots of babies also decreases that risk.)


I think breastfeeding longterm also decreases the risk of breast cancer. At least that's what my wife said when she fed our first two until they were 5 and 3.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

bobert said:


> I think breastfeeding longterm also decreases the risk of breast cancer. At least that's what my wife said when she fed our first two until they were 5 and 3.


Yup. That’s true.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> Regarding vasectomy, here’s a snip from the attached article:
> 
> “According to H. J. Roberts, MD, who has done extensive research on the subject for more than 25 years, “no other operation performed on humans even approaches the degree and duration of multiple immunologic responses that occur in the post-vasectomy state.””
> 
> ...


I will say this. A vasectomy is the best thing we ever did together. We knew we wanted no more than one kid. We went to parties together and got careless with each other over birth control. Had a few pregnancy scares.

After getting snipped, I have 0 side effects or changes. Pregnancy scares are a thing of the past. 

The actual procedure was filled with laughter 🤣😂😆. I was in Valium heaven at the time


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Some really thoughtful posts got me thinking of another benefit of NFP. Our culture is so obsessed with immediate gratification and perhaps the best lesson for me as a new (horny) husband was that I couldn’t always have what I wanted the minute I wanted it. Frankly, working around fertile days taught me self control and to spend time with my wife enjoying other (non-sexual) activities. I’m somewhat obsessive about sex by nature so NFP really helped balance/chill me out. I learned an important lesson- it ain’t all about my pleasure and satisfaction. This was good preparation for childbirth too- when my wife was out of commission as a sexual partner for 6 weeks or so. I learned to abstain for a week or two (fertile days plus illness or business trip) and used this self control to not be a total ass during the 6 weeks my wife spent recovering from childbirth.

Most men I’m convinced never learn these simple lessons in self control and run off to porn/masturbation the day the sexual frustration hits.

In sum, NFP is more than contraception- it’s a lesson in what is true and right- it’s honoring a woman’s precious gift of sexuality/fertility.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BlueWoman said:


> From the article you posted…
> ”However, this extra risk is quite small because the risk of breast cancer for most young women is low [36,38-39]. So, even with a slightly higher risk from taking the pill, most young women are unlikely to get breast cancer.”
> 
> I didn’t see anything about your claims on brain chemistry and testosterone.
> ...


People are throwing stones at my beloved church and NFP so here’s another article/quote:

“Lipton and his team determined that oral contraceptive pills, or OCPs, were linked to lower brain volume in the hypothalamus. This is the area of the brain that affects body processes, like body temperature and heart rate, and brain processes, like appetite, mood, and sex drive.”









Birth control may shrink the brain, with murky consequences


Oral contraceptive pills are linked to lower brain volume in the hypothalamus.




www.inverse.com


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

bobert said:


> I think breastfeeding longterm also decreases the risk of breast cancer. At least that's what my wife said when she fed our first two until they were 5 and 3.


I’m a big fan of breastfeeding but 5 was a little too old even for my wife. 😆


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I will say this. A vasectomy is the best thing we ever did together. We knew we wanted no more than one kid. We went to parties together and got careless with each other over birth control. Had a few pregnancy scares.
> 
> After getting snipped, I have 0 side effects or changes. Pregnancy scares are a thing of the past.
> 
> The actual procedure was filled with laughter 🤣😂😆. I was in Valium heaven at the time


Wait, “best thing you ever did”… surely NOT. Don’t let your kids hear you say that. 😆


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Oi. That is not how it works.


Another article quote:

“Vasectomy produces anatomic, hormonal and immunologic changes and, although not substantiated by clinical studies, has been reputed to be associated with atherosclerosis, prostate cancer, testicular cancer and urolithiasis. Complications of vasectomy include overt failure, occasional sperm in the ejaculate, hematoma, bleeding, infection, sperm granuloma, congestive epididymitis, antisperm antibody formation and psychogenic impotence.”









Complications of vasectomy - PubMed


Family physicians should be aware of the potential effects and complications of vasectomy so they can appropriately counsel patients seeking sterilization. Vasectomy produces anatomic, hormonal and immunologic changes and, although not substantiated by clinical studies, has been reputed to be...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Another:

“but after vasectomy, they cannot ejaculate out of the body instead of this they break down and *reabsorbed in the bloodstream.”*









What Happens To Sperm After A Vasectomy - Mens Pharmacy Blog


After a vasectomy, it is impossible for sperm to leave the body through the penis. But is no change in the production of the sperm by the testicles, but after vasectomy, they cannot ejaculate out of the body instead of this they break down and reabsorbed in the bloodstream.



www.menspharmacy.co.uk


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> Wait, “best thing you ever did”… surely NOT. Don’t let your kids hear you say that. 😆


Man, you got me good there! 🤣y


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Another:
> 
> “but after vasectomy, they cannot ejaculate out of the body instead of this they break down and *reabsorbed in the bloodstream.”*
> 
> ...


You totally ignored this part:

"In every person living there is a time when no availability of sex. In this time the body produces sperm, but these sperms are not used. These unused sperms are naturally reabsorbed by the body. After vasectomy body repeat the same process of reabsorption."


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Yeah. Also what do you think happens to sperm ejaculated into a woman's body?,?

That's right. Absorbed.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> People are throwing stones at my beloved church and NFP so here’s another article/quote:
> 
> “Lipton and his team determined that oral contraceptive pills, or OCPs, were linked to lower brain volume in the hypothalamus. This is the area of the brain that affects body processes, like body temperature and heart rate, and brain processes, like appetite, mood, and sex drive.”
> 
> ...


Just curious? Did you actually read the article you posted? Because I don’t think it says what you think it says. It is a very interesting article. You should read it.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Yeah. Also what do you think happens to sperm ejaculated into a woman's body?,?
> 
> That's right. Absorbed.


Not exactly. In the absence of peak type cervical mucus they die pretty quickly…

“Progesterone makes gestagenic (or G-Type) cervical mucus which creates a mucus plug inside your cervical canal that acts as a physical barrier between your vagina and your uterus.¹⁴ *The pH of the vagina returns to its sperm-hostile acidic state *and hotel is closed. Sperm can’t penetrate this cervical plug and instead they die hanging out in the lobby.”

I think it incredibly interesting that the vagina is equipped to kill sperm when it doesn’t want them hanging around. I’m not convinced that a man’s severed nut tube is so well equipped… Seems like a significant immunological exercise to pickup and kill 100 million sperm per ejaculation… just common sense.









Discover your Key Fertility Sign: Cervical Mucus


Have you seen it before? Some people tell me they’ve noticed it but didn’t take much note while others have told me they confused their cervical mucus with a yeast infection or an STI. The truth is, cervical mucus is a normal, healthy, and essential part of the menstrual cycle.



vira.care


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Not exactly. In the absence of peak type cervical mucus they die pretty quickly…
> 
> “Progesterone makes gestagenic (or G-Type) cervical mucus which creates a mucus plug inside your cervical canal that acts as a physical barrier between your vagina and your uterus.¹⁴ *The pH of the vagina returns to its sperm-hostile acidic state *and hotel is closed. Sperm can’t penetrate this cervical plug and instead they die hanging out in the lobby.”
> 
> ...


As you highlighted, the sperm die. They also die in the male body after a vasectomy. 

"During the surgery, 2 tubes called the vas deferens are cut and sealed. The vas deferens carry sperm from testicles to the urethra. The urethra is the tube inside the penis. Once they are cut, sperm can't get into the semen or out of the body. The testes still make sperm, but *the sperm die* and are absorbed by the body."


----------



## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

The rhythm method has terrible reliability when you consider that a failure represents a need for abdominal surgery (abortion) or a multi-decade commitment.



> Among 100 women in their first year of using the rhythm method, 24 will typically become pregnant. This is much higher than most other methods.


reference

A quarter of the people using it will get pregnant _during the first year_.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The best think about NFP is that it gets better the longer you use it. 

By the time you have 5-6 children, NFP is nearly perfect.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> The rhythm method has terrible reliability when you consider that a failure represents a need for abdominal surgery (abortion) or a multi-decade commitment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one here is suggesting the rhythm method. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Not exactly. In the absence of peak type cervical mucus they die pretty quickly…
> 
> “Progesterone makes gestagenic (or G-Type) cervical mucus which creates a mucus plug inside your cervical canal that acts as a physical barrier between your vagina and your uterus.¹⁴ *The pH of the vagina returns to its sperm-hostile acidic state *and hotel is closed. Sperm can’t penetrate this cervical plug and instead they die hanging out in the lobby.”
> 
> ...


Right. They die. Then what, do you think, happens? Do you think they just pile up like dead bodies in there forever 🤔?

Come on. They are absorbed. Just like they are in a male body.

Geez.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Some really thoughtful posts got me thinking of another benefit of NFP. Our culture is so obsessed with immediate gratification and perhaps the best lesson for me as a new (horny) husband was that I couldn’t always have what I wanted the minute I wanted it. Frankly, working around fertile days taught me self control and to spend time with my wife enjoying other (non-sexual) activities. I’m somewhat obsessive about sex by nature so NFP really helped balance/chill me out. I learned an important lesson- it ain’t all about my pleasure and satisfaction. This was good preparation for childbirth too- when my wife was out of commission as a sexual partner for 6 weeks or so. I learned to abstain for a week or two (fertile days plus illness or business trip) and used this self control to not be a total ass during the 6 weeks my wife spent recovering from childbirth.
> 
> Most men I’m convinced never learn these simple lessons in self control and run off to porn/masturbation the day the sexual frustration hits.
> 
> In sum, NFP is more than contraception- it’s a lesson in what is true and right- it’s honoring a woman’s precious gift of sexuality/fertility.


Prior to seeing the light regarding porn, how often were you masturbating because your NFP wouldn't allow sex?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> “but after vasectomy, they cannot ejaculate out of the body instead of this they break down and *reabsorbed in the bloodstream.”*


That is the exact same thing that happens if you simply abstain from sex.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is the exact same thing that happens if you simply abstain from sex.


Yeah, got news for ya, CD. It's happening to you every month when you're abstaining.

Although the "precious bodily fluids" argument is good for entertainment.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is the exact same thing that happens if you simply abstain from sex.


I’d say the sperm live and die in the same place as the body intended. Wet dreams also send sperm out. Sperm being dumped outside the testes and into an adjacent area seems unnatural to me and I’d think it would cause an immune response. I’m not a doctor but only play one online. 😆


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I’d say the sperm live and die in the same place as the body intended. Wet dreams also send sperm out. Sperms being dumped outside the testes and into an adjacent area seems unnatural to me and I’d think it would cause an immune response. I’m not a doctor but only play one online. 😆


And poorly. Both ends of my vas deferens were sealed by the doc.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BlueWoman said:


> Just curious? Did you actually read the article you posted? Because I don’t think it says what you think it says. It is a very interesting article. You should read it.


Sure did but you’re not freaked out about lower brain volume?? I’m not sure I believe the part of the article that suggests “no negative effect” from that. Who’d a thought birth control pills would shrink the brain??


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> And poorly. Both ends of my vas deferens were sealed by the doc.


Still brother, ALL your sperm never leave your testicles? I’m pretty sure the testicles weren’t designed to function like that.

When I’ve abstained for weeks after childbirth I start having wet dreams again, even in my late forties. I’ve had a few wet dreams in my fifties. It seems like my body is going to clean out some sperm one way or another.

We’ll, the human body can adapt to a lot… I guess no one read the vasectomy complications link above…


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Right. They die. Then what, do you think, happens? Do you think they just pile up like dead bodies in there forever 🤔?
> 
> Come on. They are absorbed. Just like they are in a male body.
> 
> Geez.


Dead cells are easier to clean up than live ones I’d imagine. I’m contending that live sperm aren’t meant to be swimming around the testes endlessly… 

I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Just sayin’ it’s unnatural!

Im sure the same thing can happen if you got kicked in the nuts really hard- glad if the body can adapt!

In sum,

NFP- healthy, natural awareness of fertility

Vasectomy- akin to getting kicked in the nuts really hard

Birth control pills- reduce sex drive and shrinks your brain


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Dead cells are easier to clean up than live ones I’d imagine. I’m contending that live sperm aren’t meant to be swimming around the testes endlessly…
> 
> I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Just sayin’ it’s unnatural!
> 
> ...


So what due priests and monks do that have sworn celibacy?

Also, since when did the Catholic Church consider the health of women when making proclamations about birth control? They aren't opposed to hormonal medical treatment, just opposed to birth control. You make it out that this is all about health, but it isn't, it is about control.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I’d say the sperm live and die in the same place as the body intended. Wet dreams also send sperm out. Sperm being dumped outside the testes and into an adjacent area seems unnatural to me and I’d think it would cause an immune response. I’m not a doctor but only play one online. 😆


Sperm are also meant to live and die in men. If a man doesn't ejaculate, the sperm will stay in his body. After 70-75 days the sperm die and are reabsorbed by the body. They are not swimming around endlessly or creating a mass sperm grave in your nuts. It's not unnatural. It's where sperm are meant to be, until/if deposited elsewhere.



CatholicDad said:


> I guess no one read the vasectomy complications link above…


Maybe because it started with: "although not substantiated by clinical studies"?

Googling stuff is not doing research. All you are doing is looking for sources to support your opinion, and ignoring the rest.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Still brother, ALL your sperm never leave your testicles? I’m pretty sure the testicles weren’t designed to function like that.


I used NFP but I wasn't gonna say no when my husband said he was getting a vasectomy. The same thing happened when my dad said you're getting braces. I'm pretty sure my teeth were not supposed to function or be as straight as they are now, but thanks to orthodontics and some teeth pulling, (mutilation?) I have a pretty good smile 😁


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cynthia said:


> No one here is suggesting the rhythm method.
> 
> Sent from my
> 
> ...


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Guys, if you and your wife are done with children, then get a vasectomy. She will love the idea of stopping the pill. Also, its a great feeling to not have pregnancy scares anymore. 

The procedure is 15-20 minutes. Lot of pressure but no pain. You still ejaculate about the same, sex feels the same, no changes in testosterone, no blue balls, or any other pains.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> The procedure is 15-20 minutes. Lot of pressure but no pain. You still ejaculate about the same, sex feels the same, no changes in testosterone, no blue balls, or any other pains.


Big vasectomy proponent here, but it was not painless. It caused me 5+ years of occasional post-vasectomy pain. 

Still worth it.


----------



## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> Sure did but you’re not freaked out about lower brain volume?? I’m not sure I believe the part of the article that suggests “no negative effect” from that. Who’d a thought birth control pills would shrink the brain??


Nope. Not concerned at all. Brain size also decreases during pregnancy. Do you think your wife's brain has had a negative effect from her 10 pregnancies? I would bet that neither of you thinks there has been a negative cognitive effect. But even if you did, would that have changed your or her mind about having 10 kids? I bet it wouldn't.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BlueWoman said:


> Nope. Not concerned at all. Brain size also decreases during pregnancy. Do you think your wife's brain has had a negative effect from her 10 pregnancies? I would bet that neither of you thinks there has been a negative cognitive effect. But even if you did, would that have changed your or her mind about having 10 kids? I bet it wouldn't.


I'd take the negative effects of the pill over the incredible wear and tear of 10 pregnancies any day.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Guys, if you and your wife are done with children, then get a vasectomy. She will love the idea of stopping the pill. Also, its a great feeling to not have pregnancy scares anymore.
> 
> The procedure is 15-20 minutes. Lot of pressure but no pain. You still ejaculate about the same, sex feels the same, no changes in testosterone, no blue balls, or any other pains.


I really didn't notice any difference in any way.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

There are risks to living life, no matter which options we choose. There are benefits and risks to having many children and benefits and risks to having a vasectomy, just as there are different benefits and risks to driving or walking. We have to weigh those benefits and risks without living in fear and have to assess what those risks mean to us. We also have to be authentic to our beliefs when we make these choices.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I had my tubes tied after I had one child. I was still in my 20’s and (many decades ago) my husband’s agreement was required. Even with that my doctor still didn’t want to do the surgery. His reasoning was that I was very young (true) and might change my mind some day (false). He kept rescheduling my surgery — no doubt hoping I would change my mind but I didn’t and never regretted it. We all make our choices.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I'd take the negative effects of the pill over the incredible wear and tear of 10 pregnancies any day.


Except you might have a big beautiful family after 10 pregnancies… compounded by the joy of watching your children grow up and just loving them.

I’d bet my wife is healthier than 90% of 50 year olds- and has some of the best buns west of the Mississippi! 😆


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So what due priests and monks do that have sworn celibacy?
> 
> Also, since when did the Catholic Church consider the health of women when making proclamations about birth control? They aren't opposed to hormonal medical treatment, just opposed to birth control. You make it out that this is all about health, but it isn't, it is about control.


The church is concerned with morality, not health. The church is morally opposed to birth control because (in short) it is against God’s first command “be fruitful and multiply”.

Its not about control- it’s really about freedom…to not be a slave to sin.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BlueWoman said:


> Nope. Not concerned at all. Brain size also decreases during pregnancy. Do you think your wife's brain has had a negative effect from her 10 pregnancies? I would bet that neither of you thinks there has been a negative cognitive effect. But even if you did, would that have changed your or her mind about having 10 kids? I bet it wouldn't.


You didn’t bother to post an article so I’d say brain shrink during pregnancy is an unfounded claim. Here’s another article quote:

“Although some studies have started emerging on this claim, there is, however, insufficient evidence to prove that a woman’s brain shrinks during pregnancy..”









Does a woman’s brain shrink during pregnancy? | Dubawa


Claim: A Twitter user claims that a woman’s brain shrinks during pregnancy and needs up to six months to grow back to its normal size. There is insufficient evidence to prove that a woman’s brain shrinks during pregnancy and needs up to six months after giving birth to grow back to its normal...




dubawa.org


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

If I had to choose between vasectomy and my wife popping birth control pills- I’d choose vasectomy.

No brain shrink, no loss of testosterone, no increased breast cancer risk…. just instead the biggest kick in the nuts 🥜 ever! 😆


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Except you might have a big beautiful family after 10 pregnancies… compounded by the joy of watching your children grow up and just loving them.
> 
> I’d bet my wife is healthier than 90% of 50 year olds- and has some of the best buns west of the Mississippi! 😆


No. I do not think 10 kids is a "big beautiful family".

I think 2 kids is a great family. We can do so many more things together that's impossible with 10 kids. Just in terms of time together. Time and attention split between 2 kids not 10.

Sorry but 10 pregnancies takes a toll no matter how healthy you are.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Livvie said:


> No. I do not think 10 kids is a "big beautiful family".
> 
> I think 2 kids is a great family. We can do so many more things together that's impossible with 10 kids. Just in terms of time together. Time and attention split between 2 kids not 10.
> 
> Sorry but 10 pregnancies takes a toll no matter how healthy you are.


It’s actually a bit of a fountain of youth- truly. My wife is mistaken for a forty year old. Those pregnancy hormones are incredible!


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> You didn’t bother to post an article so I’d say brain shrink during pregnancy is an unfounded claim. Here’s another article quote:
> 
> “Although some studies have started emerging on this claim, there is, however, insufficient evidence to prove that a woman’s brain shrinks during pregnancy..”
> 
> ...


If we want to start linking random links that just happen to support our uneducated opinion:

"A just-released study published in the journal _Nature Neuroscience_ shows that* pregnant women lose gray matter in areas of the brain* that deal with people’s feelings and nonverbal signals."









Women’s brains shrink during pregnancy, but that's probably a good thing


Researchers say the reduction in gray matter may help new mothers' brains become more efficient and aid them in bonding with their babies.



www.usatoday.com





"In 2016, a team of researchers from the Netherlands and Spain used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to study what happens inside the brain during pregnancy. Comparing MRI images taken before women became pregnant with images taken after they had given birth, the researchers found *pregnancy shrinks the brain’s **gray matter*, the pinkish-gray tissue containing the cell bodies and synapses of nerve cells. What’s more, the volume loss persisted for at least two years after childbirth."









How Pregnancy Changes the Brain


Pregnancy sculpts the brain in a way that may improve social cognition and caregiving.




www.brainfacts.org





"A study published this month in Nature Neuroscience sheds light on the *substantial changes that occur in a woman’s brain during pregnancy*. Namely, *the brain gets smaller* and it also makes itself more efficient."









The Effects of Pregnancy on Women's Brains


Researchers say women lose some gray matter while they’re pregnant, but their brains also become more efficient and strengthen women’s feelings of attachment.




www.healthline.com





"A first-of-its-kind study has revealed that t*he architecture of women's brains changes strikingly during their first pregnancies*, in ways that last for at least 2 years. In particular, *gray matter shrinks* in areas involved in processing and responding to social signals."









Pregnancy resculpts women's brains for at least 2 years


Novel study finds striking, lasting changes in brain areas involved in social cognition




www.science.org





"*The brain decreases in size *_*during pregnancy*_ and increases in size after delivery"









Change in brain size during and after pregnancy: study in healthy women and women with preeclampsia - PubMed


The brain decreases in size during pregnancy and increases in size after delivery. The changes follow a consistent time course in each woman. The mechanism and physiologic importance of these findings are speculative at the present time.




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





"In 2002, researchers at the Imperial College of London published a study that involved collecting images of 14 pregnant womens’ brains before and during pregnancy, and a year after they gave birth. They found that *certain areas of women’s brains shrunk during pregnancy* and others expanded again after delivery."









This Is Your Brain on Motherhood (Published 2020)


How pregnancy and parenthood kick neurological development into high gear.




www.nytimes.com





I need a hobby.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

bobert said:


> If we want to start linking random links that just happen to support our uneducated opinion:
> 
> "A just-released study published in the journal _Nature Neuroscience_ shows that* pregnant women lose gray matter in areas of the brain* that deal with people’s feelings and nonverbal signals."
> 
> ...


Quick skim seems to say these changes are temporary and that other parts of the brain expand…


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Quick skim seems to say these changes are temporary and that other parts of the brain expand…


Right, and what about birth control pills? If they actually are shrinking the hypothalamus, is that permanent? From what I read, we don't know and the author of the study has said the findings are preliminary, it's too early to conclude anything, and has yet to be peer-reviewed. 









Birth control pills 'alter the structure of women's brains'


A study has found that women or oral contraceptives had a smaller hypothalamus than women not taking the pill.




inews.co.uk





"The study shows that women taking the pill do not have smaller brains overall and that their mental abilities are not affected". Yet, the mental abilities of pregnant women DO change.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

The women I know who had 5+ pregnancies did just fine. I have an aunt that had 12 children. She is 80 years old and still beautiful. She is one of those women who kept her figure and her stunning good looks into her late 60's. My grandmother had nine children. She lived to be two weeks shy of 97. She was healthy and active way past when most people are. This probably had something to do with how active she constantly was. Women that have a lot of children are usually very busy, active people. Having an active mind and body are both good for health and longevity.

If a woman doesn't want to have a large family, that is up to her, but having a large family does not diminish a woman.

There are many large families that are highly dysfunctional.
There are many small families that are highly dysfunctional.
There are many large families that are highly healthy and loving.
There are many small families that are highly healthy and loving. (edited to correct mistake that changed meaning)


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> It’s actually a bit of a fountain of youth- truly. My wife is mistaken for a forty year old. Those pregnancy hormones are incredible!


A quick search pulls up studies that say pregnancy accelerates aging, studies that say it slows down aging, and others that say it only accelerates aging in women who have had 5+ pregnancies. So really, no one knows.

My wife is frequently mistaken for being 10 years younger or even a teenager (she's almost 36). It has _always _been that way for her though, long before we had children. Some women just age slowly.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

bobert said:


> Right, and what about birth control pills? If they actually are shrinking the hypothalamus, is that permanent? From what I read, we don't know and the author of the study has said the findings are preliminary, it's too early to conclude anything, and has yet to be peer-reviewed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here’s another… pretty clear. Ya know, pregnancy isn’t really optional (unless you’re pro-extinction)- pills ARE optional!

“We found a dramatic difference in the size of the brain structures between women who were taking oral contraceptives and those who were not," Lipton said.
"This initial study shows a strong association and should motivate further investigation into the effects of oral contraceptives on brain structure and their potential impact on brain function," Lipton added.”









Revealed: Impact of birth control pills on size of brain region







www.ummid.com


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Here’s another… pretty clear. Ya know, pregnancy isn’t really optional (unless you’re pro-extinction)- pills ARE optional!
> 
> “We found a dramatic difference in the size of the brain structures between women who were taking oral contraceptives and those who were not," Lipton said.
> "This initial study shows a strong association and should motivate further investigation into the effects of oral contraceptives on brain structure and their potential impact on brain function," Lipton added.”
> ...


The author of the study also said “We’re not saying that people should run out and throw away their birth control pills. If anything, the results may simply point to a question that warrants more research".

A professor of medical imaging at UCL said “Results like this are intriguing but must be treated with caution. Firstly, small studies like this are susceptible to ‘false positives’ – that is random findings that would disappear in a larger study. Secondly, it isn’t clear from this work whether the authors only studied the hypothalamus, or examined many brain structures and this one was significantly different between the group, which could increase the chance of false positive findings. Thirdly, even if the difference in volume is real, it doesn’t mean that the contraceptive pill has damaged the brain.”

Many studies are pretty meaningless and so far, this one doesn't have a lot of weight.

I don't like the pill and even if my wife could take it I wouldn't want her on it long-term, but I'm not going to go around stating that it's horrible and shrinks the brain when we just don't know.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> The church is concerned with morality, not health. The church is morally opposed to birth control because (in short) it is against God’s first command “be fruitful and multiply”.
> 
> Its not about control- it’s really about freedom…to not be a slave to sin.


Then why is it okay to use NFP? You are still circumventing the command to be fruitful and multiply, aren't you?


I really think it is a raw deal for women. Unless they want to get pregnant they can't have sex during the time they most desire it. Then they likely aren't interested in sex while mensurating either. So now a good chunk of the month is off the table. I think this is why 24% of people using NFP for birth control get pregnant withing a year.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Then why is it okay to use NFP? You are still circumventing the command to be fruitful and multiply, aren't you?
> 
> 
> I really think it is a raw deal for women. Unless they want to get pregnant they can't have sex during the time they most desire it. Then they likely aren't interested in sex while mensurating either. So now a good chunk of the month is off the table. I think this is why 24% of people using NFP for birth control get pregnant withing a year.


Oh give me a break- 24%? Where’d that ridiculously stat come from? NFP is like 99% effective as a means of birth control.

So you think popping hormone pills, brain shrinkage, and testosterone drop is equivalent to abstaining a fewdays a month??


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Oh give me a break- 24%? Where’d that ridiculously stat come from? NFP is like 99% effective as a means of birth control.
> 
> So you think popping hormone pills, brain shrinkage, and testosterone drop is equivalent to abstaining a fewdays a month??


It came from the Mayo Clinic. Yes, IF done perfectly NFP is 99%, but it is by far the easiest BC method to screw up.





__





Rhythm method for natural family planning - Mayo Clinic







www.mayoclinic.org






Everything we do every day comes with some level of risk. The statistics show that the risk of BC pills is very low and you personally must weigh the risk vs benefit. Hormones are not the only form of BC anyway. Condoms are very effective. The copper IUD has no hormones. If you choose to not use them and use NFP instead you have to accept the risks. Those risks mean your abstinence at certain times of the month must be perfect. If your primary goal is to not have unplanned pregnancy then I think NFP is the least desirable choice because it poses the highest risk to your goal.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> You didn’t bother to post an article so I’d say brain shrink during pregnancy is an unfounded claim. Here’s another article quote:
> 
> “Although some studies have started emerging on this claim, there is, however, insufficient evidence to prove that a woman’s brain shrinks during pregnancy..”
> 
> ...


Seriously? 
You need a link?!

How Pregnancy Changes the Brain (brainfacts.org) 

The Effects of Pregnancy on Women's Brains (healthline.com) 

Pregnancy Causes Lasting Changes in a Woman's Brain - Scientific American 

Pregnant Brain - the virtual ObGyn office (gynob.com) 

Easiest google search I've ever done.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It came from the Mayo Clinic. Yes, IF done perfectly NFP is 99%, but it is by far the easiest BC method to screw up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m not talking about the “Rhythm Method of NFP”- that’s like from 75 years ago. Your link didn’t work either.

I mean- go ahead and let your wife eat pharmaceuticals so that you can have sex on demand but you’re not convincing me that this practice is good, healthy, moral or even responsible. Originally, ALL Christian churches were morally opposed to birth control. And with big pharma making billions off it who’s gonna find a study to prove it’s bad- there’s no $$$ incentive to do that!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

BlueWoman said:


> Seriously?
> You need a link?!
> 
> How Pregnancy Changes the Brain (brainfacts.org)
> ...


Quote from one article, pregnancy brain shrink is temporary!

“…because the same studies show that brain size returns between a few weeks to a few months after the birth of the baby.”


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> I mean- go ahead and let your wife eat pharmaceuticals so that you can have sex on demand but you’re not convincing me that this practice is good…


“Let your wife…”? My wife doesn’t need my permission to take her oral contraceptives. She’s been on some form of them since she was a teenager.

Since I have no kids I’m happy with them.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Another advantage of NFP is that it costs nothing. Anyone with pen and paper could learn it and document/chart fertility.

BCP is like an $8B industry per year industry in North America.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

After all of this debate- I want to watch this documentary about the pill:









New documentary explores birth control's costs from secular perspective


A new documentary, The Business of Birth Control, takes a look at the risks of hormonal birth control from a secular perspective.




www.liveaction.org





a few excerpts:

“The documentary features multiple testimonies of American and British women in their 20s and 30s who have experienced concerning, even debilitating, mental health issues because of hormonal birth control. Time after time, when they went to their doctors asking if their new symptoms could be connected to their birth control, they were told that there was no connection and were instead given prescriptions for anxiolytics and/or antidepressants.”

“But evolutionary psychologist Sarah Hill, whose ground-breaking book, “This is Your Brain on Birth Control,” summarizes the research demonstrating the Pill’s direct impact on mood, states unequivocally, “You’re a different version of yourself when you’re on hormonal contraception relative to the version of yourself when you’re off of it.”

“The documentary includes interviews with multiple sets of devastated parents whose otherwise healthy daughters tragically died due to blood clots caused by their birth control. Consistently, the parents decry the utter lack of accountability pharmaceutical companies have…”

“The film touches only briefly on Margaret Sanger’s eugenically-motivated efforts to propagate contraception in the 1920s and ’30s before moving on to cover the early days of research on the Pill, which essentially made guinea pigs out of 132 impoverished Puerto Rican women who took the Pill for 12 months.”


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> “You’re a different version of yourself when you’re on hormonal contraception relative to the version of yourself when you’re off of it.”


Got it, so you could be better!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I’m not talking about the “Rhythm Method of NFP”- that’s like from 75 years ago. Your link didn’t work either.
> 
> I mean- go ahead and let your wife eat pharmaceuticals so that you can have sex on demand but you’re not convincing me that this practice is good, healthy, moral or even responsible. Originally, ALL Christian churches were morally opposed to birth control. And with big pharma making billions off it who’s gonna find a study to prove it’s bad- there’s no $$$ incentive to do that!


The link works just fine. All forms of NFP have the highest risk of unplanned pregnancy due to having the highest opportunity for an error. It doesn't matter if you use a calendar based system or any of the other fertility awareness methods. It isn't difficult to see why this is the case if you aren't blinded by your single-minded attitude that your way is the best and only way everyone should do it. 

Try this link.








Natural Family Planning as a Means of Preventing Pregnancy


Natural family planning has recently gained attention following the Trump Administration’s release of the 2018 Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA) for the federal Title X family planning program…




www.kff.org





The combined temperature and CMM method is 99.6% effective with PERFECT use. However, with typical use that falls to 66%. NFP is a great choice if you are sure that you and your partner will execute it perfectly.


You are hyper focused on the pill, but there are other options for those that do want to avoid hormones and want an effective, easy to use birth control method. 

I didn't LET my wife take the pill. She chose to do that. She was taking it before I met her. She came off with no issues when we wanted to get pregnant and she got a tubal ligation once we decided we were done with having children. It never seemed to have any impact on her desire and no health issues as a result of being on the pill for about 10 years. 

If we avoided everything that generated a lot of revenue for a big company we would be living in the stone age. Do you not take any kind of medication?


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

bobert said:


> A quick search pulls up studies that say pregnancy accelerates aging, studies that say it slows down aging, and others that say it only accelerates aging in women who have had 5+ pregnancies. So really, no one knows.
> 
> My wife is frequently mistaken for being 10 years younger or even a teenager (she's almost 36). It has _always _been that way for her though, long before we had children. Some women just age slowly.


I believe aging mostly comes down to genetics. Some people just hit the genetic lottery lol. I am 39 and still get carded for alcohol 50% of the time. I am 6'0 and my daughter is about 5'7 at 14. I take her oit to eat here and there and occasionally a waitress will look for a minute and then ask if we are separate or together 🤣. I have been told I look too young to have a 14 year old daughter. 

But as far as having a lot of kids in marriage, my hat is off to you. I couldn’t handle it. My friend has four and all he does is work and take care of kids. There are no date nights, no alome time, and really no peace at the house. They are constantly fighting because they are both flat worn out. Its rare I get to see him. He will sometimes lie and say he has to work over, then stop by my house for a couple hours. He doesn't directly say I am unhappy. But he says this isn't how I imagined life, or I have no room to breathe at home


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

@BigDaddyNY NFP is not a calendar method. NFP is not the same as the rhythm method.

I agree that NFP is difficult and, therefore, a couple using it should be prepared to welcome another baby, even if using a back-up method, because the back-up methods are also not very effective. The so called pull-out "method" is really no method at all and is the worst possible back-up.

However, there are people who use NFP successfully. It takes a combination of factors to make it work, but there are some couples that can. It worked for my husband and I. The thing that failed was our back-up method.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Cynthia said:


> @BigDaddyNY
> However, there are people who use NFP successfully. It takes a combination of factors to make it work, but there are some couples that can. It worked for my husband and I. The thing that failed was our back-up method.


The fact that you needed a backup method which also failed indicates to me that NFP did not in truth work for you, if by backup method you mean that you knew you might be fertile but decided to have sex anyway. Which IS the fundamental failure of NFP.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> @BigDaddyNY NFP is not a calendar method. NFP is not the same as the rhythm method.
> 
> I agree that NFP is difficult and, therefore, a couple using it should be prepared to welcome another baby, even if using a back-up method, because the back-up methods are also not very effective. The so called pull-out "method" is really no method at all and is the worst possible back-up.
> 
> However, there are people who use NFP successfully. It takes a combination of factors to make it work, but there are some couples that can. It worked for my husband and I. The thing that failed was our back-up method.


Yes, I realize rhythm or calendar based NFP is not the same as basal temp or CMM, but they all are forms of NFP. Even the combination of basal temp, CMM and using urine hormone detection only results in about 88% effective rate under typical use.

The fundamental flaw is that you can't have sex when the woman most desires it. When we fight biology we usually lose. 

If I'm understanding you correctly, it wasn't just the backup that failed. If you had sex while fertile then your NFP method failed. You had sex while fertile. Isn't the whole idea that you abstain while fertile? No back-up should be needed.

BTW, I would never call the pull-out method a form of birth control. It doesn't even qualify in my mind.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Cletus said:


> The fact that you needed a backup method which also failed indicates to me that NFP did not in truth work for you, if by backup method you mean that you knew you might be fertile but decided to have sex anyway. Which IS the fundamental failure of NFP.


I still don't understand why anyone would rely on this. You have to practice at it, know the signs, chart days, backup method, etc..... seems to be as effective as praying to the I don't want to get pregnant god.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> …seems to be as effective as praying to the I don't want to get pregnant god.


That sounds interesting, has anyone determined the effectiveness?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I dunno.

Vasectomy for me was not much problem, sex after 30 days, good for 20 years now. 

Still no unexpected pregnancies. 😉


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Cletus said:


> The fact that you needed a backup method which also failed indicates to me that NFP did not in truth work for you, if by backup method you mean that you knew you might be fertile but decided to have sex anyway. Which IS the fundamental failure of NFP.





BigDaddyNY said:


> If I'm understanding you correctly, it wasn't just the backup that failed. If you had sex while fertile then your NFP method failed. You had sex while fertile. Isn't the whole idea that you abstain while fertile? No back-up should be needed.


I understand how you could look at it that way, but it's not correct. With NFP, we didn't need birth control, except when I was fertile. We knew exactly when I was fertile and usually didn't do any pregnancy causing activities during that time, but when I was not fertile, we never used birth control. The only time we used birth control was when I was fertile, therefore, it was the back-up method that failed. In other words, if we had sex without a back-up method, when the charts showed we were safe, then it would be an NFP failure. The point is that NFP worked exactly as it was supposed to. It told me when I was fertile. We chose to use a backup method, which failed. If we hadn't been using NFP, but had only been using the back-up method, it would have been blamed on the method we used.


ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I still don't understand why anyone would rely on this. You have to practice at it, know the signs, chart days, backup method, etc..... seems to be as effective as praying to the I don't want to get pregnant god.


Once I got the hang of it, it was part of my routine. It does take time to get used to it and it can be inconvenient. Charting is highly accurate for most people. The charted signs clearly show where a woman is in her cycle.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Cynthia said:


> I understand how you could look at it that way, but it's not correct.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. As @BigDaddyNY said, if you require people's actions to mitigate biology, you have a system that is too easy to use incorrectly. NFP isn't like skipping leg day. One drink too many at a Christmas party, and you're sunk. 

The same can be said for condoms too, I know. Sterilization is not the right choice until it is, but other methods like the pill, IUDs, or implants don't have this built-in failure mechanism.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

bobert said:


> NFP is cheap, but it is not free. The thermometer has to be bought, my wife also used ovulation strips to use, there are apps that help track BBT and whatnot, and even the pen and paper has to be bought. If a couple uses a backup method, that is another expense.
> 
> A vasectomy is NOT an invasive procedure. It is literally a poke in the nuts with a needle, pulling the tubes out, snipping, sealing unless the doctor is doing open ended, and letting the tubes slide back in. No stitches. I took a slapshot to the nuts and that was 100x worse than the vasectomy pain.


Ovulation strips?? My wife used a couple squares of toilet paper to check for peak type mucous and we used a paper and color coded stickers.

Here’s another problem with vasectomy - PVPS. 









Post-vasectomy pain syndrome - Symptoms and causes







www.mayoclinic.org


----------



## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I dont believe the person who said a vasectomy is invasive surgery and is like takinf a 100mph fastball to the guys knows what he is talking about. 

I believe the guy who said he had chronic pain for 5 years. Unfortunately in extremely rare cases this happens. But it is not an invasive procedure at all. Most of the 15-20 minutes of procedure is waiting for the numbing agent to work. Its a tiny incision, two tubes cut and ends burned. The recovery is nothing. I sat for a day and a half watching tv and playing Nintendo WII


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I'm sorry, but I disagree. As @BigDaddyNY said, if you require people's actions to mitigate biology, you have a system that is too easy to use incorrectly. NFP isn't like skipping leg day. One drink too many at a Christmas party, and you're sunk.
> 
> The same can be said for condoms too, I know. Sterilization is not the right choice until it is, but other methods like the pill, IUDs, or implants don't have this built-in failure mechanism.


If I were not using NFP to predict fertility, but only used the method of birth control, then it would be a contraceptive failure. But since I knew when I was fertile it was a NFP failure? If I weren't using NFP during that time, my contraceptive would still have failed. In other words, I should say that we used contraceptives, but NFP as a backup. We never failed to use a contraceptive in my fertile phase. This was over a period of years. Again, if we had only used contraceptives with no NFP, we would still have gotten pregnant.

Some of us have concerns about the other methods, which is why I didn't use them. I didn't feel comfortable using a hormonal method while breastfeeding, because that could impact my baby negatively. We weren't sure our family was complete yet. The IUD can be abortive and I believe that a distinct person is created at the time of conception, so that's not an option for me.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Vasectomy is not major surgery, but it is an invasive procedure, because it involves piercing the skin, pulling out an organ, operating on the organ, then returning the organ back within the body.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cynthia said:


> Vasectomy is not major surgery, but it is an invasive procedure, because it involves piercing the skin, pulling out an organ, operating on the organ, then returning the organ back within the body.


Now I have three 😮 damn, I should have paid more attention! 🤣🤣🤣


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> If I were not using NFP to predict fertility, but only used the method of birth control, then it would be a contraceptive failure. But since I knew when I was fertile it was a NFP failure? If I weren't using NFP during that time, my contraceptive would still have failed. In other words, I should say that we used contraceptives, but NFP as a backup. We never failed to use a contraceptive in my fertile phase. This was over a period of years. Again, if we had only used contraceptives with no NFP, we would still have gotten pregnant.
> 
> Some of us have concerns about the other methods, which is why I didn't use them. I didn't feel comfortable using a hormonal method while breastfeeding, because that could impact my baby negatively. We weren't sure our family was complete yet. The IUD can be abortive and I believe that a distinct person is created at the time of conception, so that's not an option for me.


Obviously don't share if you aren't comfortable, but I'm wondering what form of BC did you use as a backup?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I haven't read like any of the thread but someone asked I stop by and share by birth control experience.

I got married I went on birth control it changed my personality, I didn't like the way it made me feel. I also totally killed my libido. When at the end of 3 months I told my new husband I was thinking about going off birth control due to the some changes I didn't like.. He said oh thank God because he had noticed the drop in libido.

We used condoms for like 20 years. and he didn't die......


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Hormonal birth control does cause problems for some, and libido can certainly be one of those. Which is why my wife had a copper IUD until she no longer needed any form of birth control.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I’m probably repeating myself but NFP worked great for my wife and I. We never had an accidental pregnancy. We were both very well aware of times we were making a baby. We’re super fertile too. If we ever had sex during ovulation (peak type mucous presence)- my wife got pregnant. 

There were several periods/years where we were overwhelmed by life and we diligently abstained during ovulation. It worked great- we *never* had a mystery or accidental pregnancy. In fact, we waited three years before we had our first child because we were young and poor and I was afraid of fatherhood and dragging my feet. 😆 

After practicing NFP for thirty years I could almost predict when my wife was ovulating- I could feel it in my bones. 😆

We jettisoned the daily temperature readings after a few months because in my wife’s case the peak type mucus was very obvious. After we got very experienced, my wife made marks on an ordinary calendar to track ovulation. We even abandoned tracking on paper because we knew the whole cycle so well.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I’d say the sperm live and die in the same place as the body intended. Wet dreams also send sperm out. Sperm being dumped outside the testes and into an adjacent area seems unnatural to me and I’d think it would cause an immune response. I’m not a doctor but only play one online. 😆


Unless you have an auto immune disease like Lupus or something, you are not going to have a serious immune response by cells your own body is producing.

And if you do have an auto immune disorder, what happens to old sperm cells is going to be the last of your concerns.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I’m probably repeating myself but NFP worked great for my wife and I. We never had an accidental pregnancy. We were both very well aware of times we were making a baby. We’re super fertile too. If we ever had sex during ovulation (peak type mucous presence)- my wife got pregnant.
> 
> There were several periods/years where we were overwhelmed by life and we diligently abstained during ovulation. It worked great- we *never* had a mystery or accidental pregnancy. In fact, we waited three years before we had our first child because we were young and poor and I was afraid of fatherhood and dragging my feet. 😆
> 
> ...


Ok fine for you, but most people are not going to want to have 10 kids so your experience is not applicable to 99.999% of the developed world.

People that don’t want or should not have 10 kids will need to use a form of actual contraception.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Pretty much all aspects of this topic have been wrung out. Hopefully eye opening to some and informative here and there. I'm not saying there aren't any more tidbits just well explored it seems.

A good topic.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Ok fine for you, but most people are not going to want to have 10 kids so your experience is not applicable to 99.999% of the developed world.
> 
> People that don’t want or should not have 10 kids will need to use a form of actual contraception.


If they had 10 kids a lot of their fertile years was spent _being pregnant_ so saying "it worked for 30 years" is an exaggeration.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> If they had 10 kids a lot of their fertile years was spent _being pregnant_ so saying "it worked for 30 years" is an exaggeration.


It’s not an exaggeration, it inapplicable. 

She was pregnant, post partem and nursing throughout most of her fertile years and they were expecting and wanting a big family (obviously. Otherwise they would have used actual reliable contraception)

The fact they did not get pregnant that 3rd week of September in 1996 when they weren’t planning on it was by random chance not actual testament to the effectiveness of PBF.

His entire argument is nonsensical and inapplicable to normal people in the developed western world.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

My wife and I used NFP for the first three years of marriage to avoid pregnancy - that’s almost double the average length of the marriages on TAM. 😆 

It works, is healthy and free!!!!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> My wife and I used NFP for the first three years of marriage to avoid pregnancy - that’s almost double the average length of the marriages on TAM. 😆
> 
> It works, is healthy and free!!!!


Well, yeah, so is freestyle rock climbing. But you're always living on the edge!

Sorry about that in advance. Just throwing out some humor. Many folks use the rythm method. Many don't. Both are ok with me of course.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> My wife and I used NFP for the first three years of marriage to avoid pregnancy - that’s almost double the average length of the marriages on TAM. 😆
> 
> It works, is healthy and free!!!!


You're getting kick-backs for this, aren't you? It's some sort of Amway MLM strategy, right? 

Get in on the ground floor! For a limited time only, accidental NFP child credits two - for - one!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, yeah, so is freestyle rock climbing. But you're always living on the edge!
> 
> Sorry about that in advance. Just throwing out some humor. Many folks use the rythm method. Many don't. Both are ok with me of course.


Not the rhythm method (that’s old beta program before my time).


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well, yeah, so is freestyle rock climbing. But you're always living on the edge!
> 
> Sorry about that in advance. Just throwing out some humor. Many folks use the rythm method. Many don't. Both are ok with me of course.


I enjoy freestyle rock climbing, but to my mind that is no where NEAR as dangerous as not using birth control. I’d rather skydive without checking my chute! 🤪🤪😂😂😂😂


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Livvie said:


> If they had 10 kids a lot of their fertile years was spent _being pregnant_ so saying "it worked for 30 years" is an exaggeration.


Ok, here’s the math for Livvie/all:

30 x 52 = 1,560 weeks married
10 x 41 = 410 weeks pregnant
10 x 24 = 240 weeks breastfeeding/assuming infertile for 24 weeks (wasn’t the case for my wife)
4 x 41 = 164 weeks lost fertility due to about 4 miscarriages (assuming full term- they weren’t but keeping my numbers conservative).

1,560 - 410 - 240 - 164 = 746 weeks of “fertile” marriage time OR 14 years.

In sum, we practiced NFP successfully for 14 years- probably longer than most marriages usually last. And yeah, no rubbers, pills, hormones, or the like were ever used- I.e no “backup methods”. If my wife had used the pill for 30 years we would have spent $7500 ($250 per year).


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> 30 x 52 = 1,560 weeks married
> 10 x 41 = 410 weeks pregnant
> 10 x 24 = 240 weeks breastfeeding/assuming infertile for 24 weeks (wasn’t the case for my wife)
> 4 x 41 = 164 weeks lost fertility due to about 4 miscarriages (assuming full term- they weren’t but keeping my numbers conservative).


You're poor wife. IMHO that is cruelty. 

I thought treating women as breeding stock was something no longer being practiced in developed, western society.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> You're poor wife. IMHO that is cruelty.
> 
> I thought treating women as breeding stock was something no longer being practiced in developed, western society.


My wife grew up wanting to be a mother. She played with baby dolls her entire childhood. She worked in day care as a teen and even got her degree in elementary education and taught elementary school before we had kids. She says I made her “dreams come true” by marrying her and being open to life. She literally prayed and asked God for our tenth child- I didn’t force it on her. She loves babies and literally doesn’t even care about the physical discomforts of pregnancy, childbirth, nursing- because she loves babies and children.

You on the other hand lived a swinger lifestyle with your wife who as I recall- no longer has any interest in having sex with you. Maybe you were hard on your wife too? I know I’ve been hard to live with but not because of my willingness to procreate children.

You indulged your wife’s sexual appetites… I indulged my wife’s baby appetites 😆.

In sum though, NFP works (not recommended for swingers). It worked steadily for us for 14 years.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> She loves babies and literally doesn’t even care about the physical discomforts of pregnancy, childbirth, nursing- because she loves babies and children.
> 
> I indulged my wife’s baby appetites 😆.


But 10 kids and 4 miscarriages????

Did you ever stop and ask why??

Did you ever wonder why her sense of self worth comes from being breeding stock?

Did you ever seek any kind of professional evaluation or therapy to see why she felt her only value and worth in the world was to crap out one kid after another even though she was having miscarriages and was taking a toll on her body and spirit? 
Did you ever stop and think about the risks to her health and her very life as well as the health and lives of the babies she was carrying? 

How many OB/gyn doctors did you ignore when they told you they could no longer reccommend or support her having more pregnancies and deliveries????

If she died delivering the 10th, who was going to take care of the other 9, you?????? Did you ever think of that????

All girls play with dolls and want to have babies. At what point do we as men say that anymore you are placing too much stress and strain on your body and psyche and are incurring too much risk and too much burden? 

And who were the ones actually monitoring and watching and care giving all these kids bred out over decades? I presume it was the other kids and that the older girls were bearing much of the brunt of child care responsibilities. 

Now I understand that families need to work together as a family unit but at what point did you place too much burden and responsibility on a child to raise other children? 

This isn't Uganda. I don't know where you live specifically but I am assuming it is developed nation of western society where farmers manage their cattle herds with more consideration. 

You can't lecture people about the effectiveness of natural family planning when you yourself were so irresponsible and abusive and have 10 kids. The gall that you can come here with a straight face and insist that NFP is a legitimate form of birth control while you turned your wife into breeding stock to crapped out 10 with a 40% miscarriage rate is simply shocking.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> She says I made her “dreams come true” by marrying her and being open to life. She literally prayed and asked God for our tenth child- I didn’t force it on her. She loves babies and literally doesn’t even care about the physical discomforts of pregnancy, childbirth, nursing- because she loves babies and children.


Lemme put it this way - The junkie prays the dealer will be able to supply them and the dealer makes their dreams come true. 

And the junkie keeps going back to the dealer for more despite the physical and psychological toll.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And one last thing before moving on, I am giving @CatholicDad the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he is supporting and paying for all these kids. 

But people who are breeding in an unrestrained manner and eschewing reliable birth control and having the offspring fed and supported by the taxpayers, are part of the problem. 

Reliable western contraception is readily available to the masses so there is no reason to have to rely on how accurate your thermometer is or how well you can interpret mucus levels or mark a calendar or any other voodoo or magic pixie dust if the rest of society is going to have to bear the burden.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Lemme put it this way - The junkie prays the dealer will be able to supply them and the dealer makes their dreams come true.
> 
> And the junkie keeps going back to the dealer for more despite the physical and psychological toll.


Your posts on this thread are very disturbing. Calling women 'breeding stock' is not ok.

Some women want to have a lot of children. When I was young, I wanted a lot of children. I grew up in a family of 8 children. It was great! To this day my siblings are my best friends and is also my very very large extended family.

I never had that large family myself because my first pregnancy ended my fertility as it did also end the lives of my twins before they were full term.

This is a personal choice. Some women love the idea of being a mom to a tribe. It's their choice. They certainly don't need your crass remarks belittling them.

Try this... you be you and let others be themselves.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NFP is a choice, and if that's what you choose to do, I'm all for it. It wouldn't have worked for us, because we literally had sex at least once a day for several years (except when apart or too sick to enjoy it), and we didn't want any pregnancies.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> And one last thing before moving on, I am giving @CatholicDad the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he is supporting and paying for all these kids.
> 
> But people who are breeding in an unrestrained manner and eschewing reliable birth control and having the offspring fed and supported by the taxpayers, are part of the problem.
> 
> Reliable western contraception is readily available to the masses so there is no reason to have to rely on how accurate your thermometer is or how well you can interpret mucus levels or mark a calendar or any other voodoo or magic pixie dust if the rest of society is going to have to bear the burden.


The vast majority of people on welfare are not 'breeding in an unrestrained manner'. The average number of children in families getting welfare is 2. Most are not permanently on welfare.,

_"This depends on the person’s eligibility as well as on the type of program. Plus, some states limit the assistance duration between 2-5 years. TANF users receive, on average, assistance between 1-12 months. About half the recipients of housing assistance participate between 37-48 months. "_​


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Your posts on this thread are very disturbing. Calling women 'breeding stock' is not ok.
> 
> Some women want to have a lot of children. When I was young, I wanted a lot of children. I grew up in a family of 8 children. It was great! To this day my siblings are my best friends and is also my very very large extended family.
> 
> ...


I'm not calling women breeding stock. I strongly support a woman's right to determine her own reproductivity whether that be no children or multiple children provided it is truly a free and conscious choice by both the mother and father and neither is being pressured into by either the other partner, their church, the in-laws or whatever. 

But after a certain number of kids and especially after a certain number of miscarriages, I don't believe it is any longer a mutual choice by both and can't help but feel one or the other is being pressured, manipulated or exploited into it. 

So I am not calling anyone breeding stock. I call out those I believe are TREATING women as breeding stock. 

I understand that there are probably a few people out there that do want very large families and as long as it is truly consensual and wanted by both and they are approaching it responsibly and heeding the recommendations of their OB/gyn doctors and they are financially able to adequately support that family without taxpayer support, then you are correct that it is none of my business. 

But what I find unconscionable is someone with 10 children and 4 miscarriages preaching to others about ramifications of contraception while saying that natural methods are a viable means of birth control. I may be a simpleton but this just boggles my mind and can't believe my own eyes that someone could stand up and say that.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Referring to women as breeding stock is inflammatory and highly offensive, however you meant it. You are assuming that no woman would want 10 children, so somehow it's her husband's fault if she does. The whole thing is nothing but a thread jack and it's offensive.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> But after a certain number of kids and especially after a certain number of miscarriages, I don't believe it is any longer a mutual choice by both and can't help but feel one or the other is being pressured, manipulated or exploited into it.


Miscarriages are very common. Something like 25% of pregnancies end in miscarriage (the number varies but that's what a fertility specialist told me).

Sometimes miscarriages can't be prevented, and sometimes they can. Sometimes the doctor can't figure out what's wrong without losses, that's just how it works sometimes. If a woman needs trigger shots, progesterone, blood thinners, etc. it can be trail and error. Trial and error that the couple wishes they didn't have to go through but are willing to go through to grow their family. It absolutely doesn't guarantee that someone is being coerced into it just because YOU wouldn't want to go through it. YOUR opinions are not everyone else's.

And yes, you ARE referring to women as breeding stock. Own it or don't say it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> And yes, you ARE referring to women as breeding stock. Own it or don't say it.


No.

My beef is with people, religions and institutions that treat women as breeding stock.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> No.
> 
> My beef is with people, religions and institutions that treat women as breeding stock.


I don’t mean to cause trouble for you here, but FWIW I get what you’re trying to say. We can’t know how his wife feels, though. It’s a leap to assume she had no choice or was somehow forced into this. You’ve made life choices that I don’t understand, and my first reaction was to be angry at you for treating your wife “that way.” But that’s not fair, is it? I don’t know her or how she felt, and I don’t know your relationship and it’s wrong of me to project my feelings on to your experience, right? I think you’re being unfair. My great grandmother had 11 pregnancies and 8 children. And believe me, no one treated Maggie like livestock, she’d make you cut your own switch for even implying she wasn’t in control. People are different, they make different choices, and it’s unkind to make such accusations about Mrs CD with no more proof than we have. Just my opinion.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

The guy who took his wife to “swinging parties” is dogging me for giving mine too many kids?? Dang…

NFP works though. As stated above- worked reliably for 14 years and during perhaps our most fertile and sexed up years- our early twenties.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don’t mean to cause trouble for you here, but FWIW I get what you’re trying to say. We can’t know how his wife feels, though. It’s a leap to assume she had no choice or was somehow forced into this. You’ve made life choices that I don’t understand, and my first reaction was to be angry at you for treating your wife “that way.” But that’s not fair, is it? I don’t know her or how she felt, and I don’t know your relationship and it’s wrong of me to project my feelings on to your experience, right? I think you’re being unfair. My great grandmother had 11 pregnancies and 8 children. And believe me, no one treated Maggie like livestock, she’d make you cut your own switch for even implying she wasn’t in control. People are different, they make different choices, and it’s unkind to make such accusations about Mrs CD with no more proof than we have. Just my opinion.


This can go both ways. I'm not being sexist here. I DO believe that in a good number of these cases that it is wife that is driving the baby train. 

So then the question becomes is the father truly on board with this. Is he the one being turned into the work horse and ground into the dirt working to keep everyone fed, housed and clothed? Does he want a wife that is pregnant, birthing babies and nursing all the time with umpteen kids under foot all the time? 

How many are simps that are just bumbling along with it because now that the latest kid is old enough that she is back on her cycle and fertile again that he can finally have sex again and he is praying that this time she doesn't get knocked up the first time they have sex. Then low and behold she is pregnant again which means more overtime or another part time job for him. 

And if she is compulsively insisting on one kid after another or insisting on "being natural and God's way" is he doing anything to stop it?????? Is he asking why she feels she must single handedly replentish the earth's population? Is he seeking help and therapy for her to determine why she feels her only value and worth is in having more and more babies?? Is he taking a stand for the family budget and putting a cap on the number of kids they can reasonably afford?? 

What is he doing when the doctors are telling them that more pregnancies and births are putting her and the babies at risk? Is he heeding the professional recommendations of actual OB doctors or is he leaving that all up to God and some disordered woman that sees her only source of value and self esteem in her reproductivity? 

Does he have a plan in place for when they ignore the doctor's warnings and she dies in delivery and now he has a new born and umpteen other kids to raise alone when he is working 70+ hours a week to keep them fed? 

This is very much a male issue too and how many men are being manipulated and exploited? How many men truly want their lives governed by pregnant and post partem women and screaming kids? 

My wife watched Steel Magnolias too and cheered for Julia Roberts risking her life and ultimately dying to have a child she was warned by doctors not to have. But what about the sap that now has to bury his wife and raise the child(s) alone? Yes my wife was willing to sacrifice herself on the alter of child bearing. She had 2 horrible and high risk pregnancies that were a nightmare and two premature babies that were in incubators fighting for their lives for weeks (thank God they are ok now)

Would she have kept having more? Your damn toot'n right she would have! She was willing to sacrifice herself on that alter, But God gave me testicles instead of ovaries so I said NO! I was NOT willing to risk her life or the lives or health of a future child. 

Did I rely on marking calendars and taking temperatures to make sure that did not happen again? No. I marched into the urologists office and demanded that plumbing be disconnected now. 

I knew she may have left me to have more children with someone else. That was a risk I was willing to take because I was not going to be a part of her death or raising some crippled child after being told by Medical Doctors not to. If some other sap wanted to take on that burden, that would be on him. 

So your right, some times it is the women that want these huge families, but that doesn't make it right nor does it mean that the husbands actually want to take on that burden. 

My position remains firm, if both parties aren't truly on board or they are being pressured or manipulated or exploited, It ain't right whether it is the husband or the wife.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I was not going to [raise] some crippled child


Thank god you got snipped and don't have that "burden". Good lord.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> This can go both ways. I'm not being sexist here. I DO believe that in a good number of these cases that it is wife that is driving the baby train.
> 
> So then the question becomes is the father truly on board with this. Is he the one being turned into the work horse and ground into the dirt working to keep everyone fed, housed and clothed? Does he want a wife that is pregnant, birthing babies and nursing all the time with umpteen kids under foot all the time?
> 
> ...


Glad we found your sense of morality brother- “Darn these parents that are having too many kids!”. Glad you’re standing up against injustice in the world! 😆


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

@oldshirt, I agree completely with everything you said. Children are a big deal and it’s unfair for either person to force that responsibility on the other. Your point is valid. Both the mother and the father are equally important in the decisions about children. And it certainly shouldn’t be about ego.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Glad we found your sense of morality brother- “Darn these parents that are having too many kids!”. Glad you’re standing up against injustice in the world! 😆


Hey if you both did this freely of your own free wills and you are good with it and you are paying for it without taxpayer support then so be it, not my circus, not my monkey.

But it IS a legit injustice if one or the other is being pressured or manipulated into it by either the other party or the church or family or anyone else. 

And it’s also an injustice if people can’t afford the kids they have and have to rely on the taxpayers. 

And if any of those things are taking place and they are relying on thermometers and mucus to prevent even more mouths to feed, that is simply irresponsible and reckless.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @oldshirt, I agree completely with everything you said. Children are a big deal and it’s unfair for either person to force that responsibility on the other. Your point is valid. Both the mother and the father are equally important in the decisions about children. And it certainly shouldn’t be about ego.


It shouldn’t be about ego, but more importantly, an individual’s (male or female) reproductivity should not be about anyone else’s agenda whether that be their partner, their family/in-laws, their church or any other entity. 

Reproductive rights goes way beyond the abortion debate. 

Although I may sound like a Grade A a-hole on this topic, I will fiercely defend @CatholicDad and his wife’s right to their own reproductive choices assuming that they are both freely consenting without pressure or duress and assuming they are not on the taxpayers dollar.

I think he/she has quite a few screws loose in the head,,,,, but I will defend his choice nonetheless.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> It shouldn’t be about ego, but more importantly, an individual’s (male or female) reproductivity should not be about anyone else’s agenda whether that be their partner, their family/in-laws, their church or any other entity.
> 
> Reproductive rights goes way beyond the abortion debate.
> 
> Although I may sound like a Grade A a-hole on this topic, I will fiercely defend @CatholicDad and his wife’s right to their own reproductive choices assuming that they are both freely consenting without pressure or duress and assuming they are not on the taxpayers dollar.


Same.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I guess it doesn’t go both ways huh @oldshirt ? You didn’t believe in your wife’s reproductive rights though?.. You “marched in” and had your vasectomy even though she “darn tootin” wanted more children. 

There were no rights in your marriage- sounds like your way or the highway.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> If my wife had used the pill for 30 years we would have spent $7500 ($250 per year).


You also wouldn’t have any kids. I heard those can cost $500k a pop.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ccpowerslave said:


> You also wouldn’t have any kids. I heard those can cost $500k a pop.


USA says it costs $284,570 (adjusted for inflation), or approximately $12,980 annually per child in a middle-income ($59,200-$107,400) .

The amount it cost to raise a child is directly related to the income of the parents. 

The Cost of Raising a Child | USDA


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess it doesn’t go both ways huh @oldshirt ? You didn’t believe in your wife’s reproductive rights though?.. You “marched in” and had your vasectomy even though she “darn tootin” wanted more children.
> 
> There were no rights in your marriage- sounds like your way or the highway.


You didn't read what I actually said. She could have had more kids if she truly wanted...... just not with me. 

I wasn't going to go through that again and I was not going to put her life or health at risk. I did not consent to fathering any more kids and took definitive steps to ensure that I didn't. 

I did not do anything impacting her fertility whatsoever. She had agency over her fertility and reproductivity, and I had agency over mine.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

For me, it’s less about the money. It’s more about the people involved. Some women love a bunch of kids. The chaos and noise makes them happy, brings them joy and love and gives them a strong sense of purpose. They just need to be sure they’re not making those decisions without their spouse.

@oldshirt was faced with a moral dilemma. Should he do something his wife wanted or should he do what he in his heart thought was right? He did what he believed was right. That’s what adults do. He was prepared to accept the consequences. I can’t fault that. He didn’t force her to stay; he said “this is what I believe is the moral thing to do” and did it and braced himself. Brave.

i just don’t think he made a selfish or a sexist choice. I think he made a choice he can feel peace about. That’s the best we can do. I can’t imagine the pain of one miscarriage, must less four. I know it’s common, but I don’t think it feels common when it happens to you. My heart breaks for a woman going through that alone.

I also disagree with @oldshirt about Shelby. Her marriage was failing. Plus, she wanted a baby. I’m someone who would rather have 15 minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of just ok. But I also realize that’s selfish. And I don’t think her husband was really stuck, that baby lives with Ma’Lynn.

I think whatever choice a woman makes about birth control is her choice. It’s none of my beeswax, and more power to her. I know I feel better and healthier since my husbands vasectomy and not being on hormones. It was his choice to do it, because Id done BC for years and he watched my son be born and thought I deserved a break. Our choice.

We gotta live and let live. Lord knows I don’t approve of CathoicDad’s religious opinion of me and I don’t like swapping. But to each his own. I think we all have more in common than less and needn’t allow these little squabbles cause unpleasantness.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @oldshirt was faced with a moral dilemma. Should he do something his wife wanted or should he do what he in his heart thought was right? He did what he believed was right. *That’s what adults do.* He was prepared to accept the consequences. I can’t fault that. He didn’t force her to stay; he said “this is what I believe is the moral thing to do” and did it and braced himself. Brave.


In another thread he said he knew his wife wanted to conceive, and he would instead jerk off in the bathroom at work, distract her to get out of sex, or have sex but fake the orgasm. Sure sounds like the adult way to handle it


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bobert said:


> In another thread he said he knew his wife wanted to conceive, and he would instead jerk off in the bathroom at work, distract her to get out of sex, or have sex but fake the orgasm. Sure sounds like the adult way to handle it


Yeah that was a jerk of me. 

But in the end she got what she wanted. 

And after a miscarriage and 2 very complicated and horrible high risk pregnancies and 2 premature babies that each spent time in the NICU I stopped playing teenage games and grew up and took responsibility of my own reproductivity.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> They just need to be sure they’re not making those decisions without their spouse.


He made the decision to get a vasectomy without his spouse- she wanted more kids.


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## David60525 (Oct 5, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> @CatholicDad has started a thread jack in this thread: I've only had sex with my wife 2 times in the last... The link is to the first post in the thread jack.
> 
> I have started this thread to discuss Natural Family Planning, NFP.
> 
> ...


Dude skip natural planning. Being married go forth and multiply like rabbits. Mexis are having 6 kids to our 1. Plan fertility time to conceive if you have difficulty, see a doctor.
This is not specifically to you, but all


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> He made the decision to get a vasectomy without his spouse- she wanted more kids.


There is a deep part of all women that always want more kids. It’s what keeps the species alive.

Yes that primal part of her wanted more kids and a part of her that would be willing to risk all to bring for life. It’s analogous to US sailors in the Philippines risking getting knifed or waking up in a bathtub full of ice missing a kidney and every STI known to man to score a piece in a phillipine bar.

But on an intellectual level she agreed to and agreed it was the right thing to do. 

Did she like it? She was sad that it was the reality but it was the reality. 

She was the one that took me to the clinic after I took my pre-procedure Valium and Vicodin.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> There is a deep part of all women that always want more kids. It’s what keeps the species alive.
> 
> Yes that primal part of her wanted more kids and a part of her that would be willing to risk all to bring for life. It’s analogous to US sailors in the Philippines risking getting knifed or waking up in a bathtub full of ice missing a kidney and every STI known to man to score a piece in a phillipine bar.
> 
> ...


You satisfied her mothering “primal urge” with another primal urge- encouraging her to have sex with other men. 😆 

I’d be the first person to admit that NFP wouldn’t work for swingers. Nor would it work in a marriage (like yours) when spouses deceive each other…. you jacking off at work and “faking orgasm”
to make your wife think you were willing to have a baby- that’s cowardly.

Per the CDC there are less than 17 deaths per 100,000 live births per year in the US. So the odds of your wife dying during pregnancy/delivery were less than 0.02%. Your odds of catching a serious STD (HIV, syphilis, HEP-B) at a swingers party is probably 1000 times more risky. We all accept risk in life just the risks you’re willing to take are about your selfish sexual pleasure.

Did you know these were the odds? Bottom line- you can try to make it sound like a wise intellectual decision- you just _didn’t want more kids_. Please save us the “you’re a bold, brave hero” BS. 

Here’s the quote/link:

“Since the Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System was implemented, the number of reported pregnancy-related deaths in the United States steadily increased from 7.2 deaths per 100,000 live births in 1987 to 17.3 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2017.”






Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC


Pregnancy complications may be caused by conditions women have before pregnancy or conditions women develop during pregnancy. Understanding rates and trends in the data can be used to identify opportunities to prevent and manage pregnancy complications and improve care for pregnant women




www.cdc.gov


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> You satisfied her mothering “primal urge” with another primal urge- encouraging her to have sex with other men. 😆
> 
> I’d be the first person to admit that NFP wouldn’t work for swingers. Nor would it work in a marriage (like yours) when spouses deceive each other…. you jacking off at work and “faking orgasm”
> to make your wife think you were willing to have a baby- that’s cowardly.
> ...


Since you’re so hung up on swinging - I didn’t have to encourage her to have sex with either men or women. 

She was already doing that before I even met her LOL 😆 😝


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