# I need help, but also check out this story…



## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

I’m a M38, together with a F35 for 14 years, married for 12, happy with no kids. We’ve been through some pretty major life traumas during our marriage and survived unscathed or even come out stronger (major career changes, death of a sibling, religious deconversions, rejection/alienation from extended family). Early June of 2022 brought the strangest challenge yet.
For the last 4 years or so, my wife has become extremely close friends with a married couple who are both colleagues of hers, and over time I warmed up to them as well, creating a very strong 4 person friend group that has essentially become our shared family. The initial problem was that as those years passed, I developed a deeper and deeper crush on her best friend, and though I would never have acted on it, I was terrified that eventually I would laugh too hard at one of her flirty jokes or give myself away in some other fashion, potentially hurting my wife or the other husband and ruining my only real friend group in the process. Part of what I love about who I’ll call “Bestie” is that she is always up for certain activities (swimming, ping pong, driveway basketball, watching sports) to a degree that my wife is not, and as summer approached and we began to spend more time doing those things, my feelings for Bestie reached a point where I felt like I couldn’t keep the secret anymore. It had to come out, so my wife might as well hear it from me.  But when we sat down to talk, I had no idea what would happen next…

My wife wasn’t jealous at all; in fact, she completely understood! Oh, and while we’re sharing secrets, here’s one of mine, she says—- she’s been afraid to tell me she’s bisexual for the entire 14 years of our relationship, and she’s been in love with her Bestie for longer than I had! What?!? It was the most freeing conversation we’d ever had to that point. We opened up about needs and wants and secret fantasies, and we started the process of deciding what the rest of our lives might look like if we embraced this new freedom route. She and Bestie were already booked for a weeklong vacation trip to Denver as friends the following week (I couldn’t get out of work to join them), so I gave my wife permission to pursue her sexually as long as every other party involved consented so as not to risk our friends over this. I love my wife dearly and wanted her to be fulfilled. I was unprepared for the degree to which things quickly escalated.
My wife not only had a new girlfriend, but the leveling up of sexual experimentation was quite an adjustment period. The first few weeks of coming home from work to find our bedroom destroyed, with a dozen new sex toys I’d never seen, along with new bruises and scratches all over my wife’s body, it was a lot to take in, even though I’d ostensibly given her permission for all of it. It was about this time I started seeing a cognitive behavioral therapist, which was my first ever experience with therapy; I needed all the help I could get!

Things escalated even further about a month later when the girls decided it was time to get the guys involved. Over the next few weeks, we developed an unspoken system where Bestie would visit our house multiple times a week for threesomes with my wife and I (new and exciting for me, for sure), and my wife would reciprocate multiple times a week at Bestie’s house with her husband. I was so excited about gaining a physical element with my own longtime crush that I gave my wife permission with the other husband perhaps a little too quickly, but as time has passed, that too has normalized for the most part. The girls even began spending a night or two a week sleeping in the other couples’ beds! I still can’t wrap my head around how much life had changed between June and August…
I was given only one rule at the start of threesome season, and that was to avoid talking about it around the husband, because he was taking longer to come to terms with sharing his wife with another man (though a woman was fine, in his eyes, I guess). I understood completely, and I followed that rule out of respect for my friend. However, I must not respect him that much, because only after about the fifth threesome did I fully discover that Bestie was keeping him in the dark about everything that was happening at my house! What the hell did he think was going on when his wife slept over? And did this mean that he thought my wife was cheating on me with him, because apparently he didn’t even know that I already knew what happened over there? How did we get in this mess where our entire friend crew is at stake when all the secrets come out? That was at least two months ago, and twenty more threesomes later, I still haven’t found the answer to that aspect of this, only digging that hole further. Despite the insanity and the secrets, the four of us still hang out a ton as friends, and we have plans to spend every holiday together this season, so we must still be doing something right? Maybe?

The sex is amazing, and the anxieties over losing my wife are mostly gone. But here’s the kicker: I’m alone all the goddamn time. My wife and I barely eat evening meals together anymore. I work hard 12 hour shifts and come home to an empty, unclean house far too often for my taste. Wife and Bestie work the same schedule, so they always have opportunities for time together while I’m at work, which seems to make more sense than them being together while I’m off, but there’s still quite a bit of carryover. I’ve found myself doing more and more (and more) of the housework, something I did most of before anyway, but now I do it as essentially the only person living in my house for days at a time. Bestie makes my wife happy in ways and to a degree that I apparently never did, and because I genuinely love her so much, I’m happy she’s this happy. And I’ve gained quite a bit here as well, now having my first ever friends-with-benefits relationship with Bestie, who is an absolutely amazing person to be around. The new highs are so high, but all these new lows of the loneliness that comes on the days in between are really taking their toll on me. This week in particular, I’m realizing that what I’m actually jealous of is the particular type of deep friendship/sexual relationship combo that Wife and Bestie have with each other, because it’s different in quality than anything I’ve ever had. The two of them cannot possibly have enough sex with each other, which is different than at any point in what I’d previously thought was a good and fulfilling 2-4 times a week life with me (which I can understand now having seen them together, because holy hell!) They share more common interests with each other than I do with either, and they’re both extreme extroverts on the same work schedule, so they essentially meet all of each other’s needs at this point, and I’m not sure what I even add anymore. They eat most meals together, including at work, they shop together, they travel together, they do housework together (in a way my wife and I never really did even in our own house). I’ve voiced some of my concerns to my wife and have asked for certain small concessions as we’ve trial-and-errored our way through this, and she really has made an effort to make sure I still feel loved and taken care of. But the problem is this: despite how much my wife loves me, the type of relationship I’d like to have is one in which the person I’m with is as desperate to live life alongside me as she is to live it alongside her Bestie. Is that unreasonable? Can my wife return to being more of that person, while also keeping her extremely fulfilling relationship with Bestie alive? I don’t want her to give that up, because they’re perfect for each other. Can we survive yet another transition to a fully open marriage on my side as well? If not, do I as an introvert with social anxiety even have what it takes to start my life over at 38, because if I leave I immediately lose my wife/best friend and the rest of the only family have? I don’t know what to do, but I can’t handle being this alone on the off days and feeling this lonely even on the on days without someone to share more of my passions with as they do with each other anymore.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Get used to it.
You're on your way out.
"Bestie's" Husband is already been phased out. He's been lied to and manipulated.
You need to start working on your next act, because you are going to need it sooner rather than later.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

How are you ok with the bestie's husband NOT knowing what is going on? If you have this type of relationship, it needs to be above board.
What do you think would happen if he found out?

Your wife is living her REAL life with the bestie -- you are getting the dregs of what she has left over.
Are you REALLY ok with that? Is just having wild monkey sex enough for you?


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

jlg07 said:


> How are you ok with the bestie's husband NOT knowing what is going on? If you have this type of relationship, it needs to be above board.
> What do you think would happen if he found out?
> 
> Your wife is living her REAL life with the bestie -- you are getting the dregs of what she has left over.
> Are you REALLY ok with that? Is just having wild monkey sex enough for you?


No, I’m not okay with her husband not knowing, but yes, I’ve continued to do it anyway, which makes me a ****ty friend and worse. I think the original intent was that over time, as he got more and more out of his side of the arrangement, Bestie could slowly open his mind up to reciprocity, but I don’t believe that has actually happened yet, and I didn’t expect it to take this long. And while Bestie genuinely enjoys her time with me (I think 🤔), I’ve always suspected that an element of it is her just trying to keep me satisfied so I don’t try to take my wife back away from her. Both things may be true. As far as what would happen if he found out at this point, I shudder to think, although he came around on the girls being in a legit second relationship relatively quickly. It’s a huge risk for sure.
Yes, I do feel like I’m getting my wife’s leftovers all the time. I’ve talked to her about this feeling on several occasions, and she swears she loves me deeply and never wants to lose me, and she’s (eventually) given me every specific concession I’ve asked for to this point. I go through stretches where I feel like everything is okay, but every few weeks I fall back into the lonely hole, and every time it gets deeper.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

Wow, that's quite a story... OP, you need to real this in very soon, in fact it's possible you have already waited too long. Set up a time for you and your wife to have some alone time and talk, I'd do it as soon as tomorrow. Then just lay it out for her -- she is way too involved with this other woman, it's exciting for all of you but is clearly getting out of control, and you know that the other man doesn't know what's going on at your house. Tell her that last bit needs to be remedied ASAP, and you need to put some ground rules around what is going on. In fact, I would suggest that you all need to take a timeout to let the girlfriend deal with her husband, and to give everyone a break to recenter their primary relationships. Give this a lot of thought, and write down your talking points so you can be sure to cover all of them. Have the convo so it's not accusatory, I mean you've been on board all along, but the way things are going it feels like you are losing her. And this can't last the way that it's going.

*Do not put this conversation off! * As I said above, you've already waited too long. Get it done, be firm in your requirements, and trust that you wife isn't too far gone in this fantasy you've all constructed. Good luck.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> No, I’m not okay with her husband not knowing, but yes, I’ve continued to do it anyway, which makes me a ****ty friend and worse. I think the original intent was that over time, as he got more and more out of his side of the arrangement, Bestie could slowly open his mind up to reciprocity, but I don’t believe that has actually happened yet, and I didn’t expect it to take this long. And while Bestie genuinely enjoys her time with me (I think 🤔), I’ve always suspected that an element of it is her just trying to keep me satisfied so I don’t try to take my wife back away from her. Both things may be true. As far as what would happen if he found out at this point, I shudder to think, although he came around on the girls being in a legit second relationship relatively quickly. It’s a huge risk for sure.
> Yes, I do feel like I’m getting my wife’s leftovers all the time. I’ve talked to her about this feeling on several occasions, and she swears she loves me deeply and never wants to lose me, and she’s (eventually) given me every specific concession I’ve asked for to this point. I go through stretches where I feel like everything is okay, but every few weeks I fall back into the lonely hole, and every time it gets deeper.


Well, it's time for a break, and when you tell her you want her to take one you are going to find out just how deeply she loves you. I really hope this turns out okay for you.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

Thanks to everyone who has responded so far, I have a lot to process and to talk to my wife about for sure. We’ve had several deep discussions along the way already, and we’ve had stretches in between my collapses during which everyone’s needs were being met and things were all-time great. So I feel like the potential for an unorthodox but great life is in there. Now we just need to recalibrate a little and get the other hubs on board, if possible.
Here’s a very out of the box idea I forgot to add during my original post… For at least the last 2 years, LONG before things got sexual between any of us, the 4 of us had a long-standing joke that got more serious over time that the 4 of us should sell our houses, buy a dream house with all our must-haves, and live together. None of us have any children, all long-term committed, and we all used to spend as much time together as possible anyway. My wife and her now GF like to drink quite a bit socially, so a shared house that would become the party house would solve the problem of driving late-night 30 minute drives potentially dangerously between our current homes, and it would also keep anyone from having to regularly eat or sleep alone. If Hubs ever got fully on board with sharing his wife with me (or if I just stopped on my own which I know I need to figure out), how insane is this best friend dream house scenario? Raising dogs together, having workout buddies, and always having people around to eat with and enjoy life together with sounds pretty awesome. Until it all falls apart and we have to figure out the mortgage 🤔 I’m not saying that’s the best answer, I’m just sure I don’t want to live so much of my life alone anymore. 
Oh, and literally the only people in the world who know about our current spouse-sharing lifestyle are the 4 of us (with Hubs only knowing half), my therapist, 2 of my old live-far-away HS friends, and all of you. No family members or any of their work friends (again, my wife and the other couple all work together) know anything. So that could all blow up spectacularly too…


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

So in short, your wives are lying hoes, and both you and the other husband are deceitful lying man hoes too. That about sums it up, right?

Your marriage is over. Might as well tell the other husband what is going on. Maybe you'll get lucky and you will all just move in together and it will be a giant **** fest for the rest of your life.

Look, you all crapped on your marriages. You can't put this genie back on the bottle. At this pint just get all 4 of you in a room and hash this out. Get everyone one the same page and see how it plays out.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So in short, your wives are lying hoes, and both you and the other husband are deceitful lying man hoes too. That about sums it up, right?
> 
> Your marriage is over. Might as well tell the other husband what is going on. Maybe you'll get lucky and you will all just move in together and it will be a giant **** fest for the rest of your life.
> 
> Look, you all crapped on your marriages. You can't put this genie back on the bottle. At this pint just get all 4 of you in a room and hash this out. Get everyone one the same page and see how it plays out.


I was just explaining my move in together plan 😂 yep we’re all hoes.


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## Lynnsnake (Dec 4, 2021)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> I’m a M38, together with a F35 for 14 years, married for 12, happy with no kids. We’ve been through some pretty major life traumas during our marriage and survived unscathed or even come out stronger (major career changes, death of a sibling, religious deconversions, rejection/alienation from extended family). Early June of 2022 brought the strangest challenge yet. For the last 4 years or so, my wife has become extremely close friends with a married couple who are both colleagues of hers, and over time I warmed up to them as well, creating a very strong 4 person friend group that has essentially become our shared family. The initial problem was that as those years passed, I developed a deeper and deeper crush on her best friend, and though I would never have acted on it, I was terrified that eventually I would laugh too hard at one of her flirty jokes or give myself away in some other fashion, potentially hurting my wife or the other husband and ruining my only real friend group in the process. Part of what I love about who I’ll call “Bestie” is that she is always up for certain activities (swimming, ping pong, driveway basketball, watching sports) to a degree that my wife is not, and as summer approached and we began to spend more time doing those things, my feelings for Bestie reached a point where I felt like I couldn’t keep the secret anymore. It had to come out, so my wife might as well hear it from me.  But when we sat down to talk, I had no idea what would happen next… My wife wasn’t jealous at all; in fact, she completely understood! Oh, and while we’re sharing secrets, here’s one of mine, she says—- she’s been afraid to tell me she’s bisexual for the entire 14 years of our relationship, and she’s been in love with her Bestie for longer than I had! What?!? It was the most freeing conversation we’d ever had to that point. We opened up about needs and wants and secret fantasies, and we started the process of deciding what the rest of our lives might look like if we embraced this new freedom route. She and Bestie were already booked for a weeklong vacation trip to Denver as friends the following week (I couldn’t get out of work to join them), so I gave my wife permission to pursue her sexually as long as every other party involved consented so as not to risk our friends over this. I love my wife dearly and wanted her to be fulfilled. I was unprepared for the degree to which things quickly escalated. My wife not only had a new girlfriend, but the leveling up of sexual experimentation was quite an adjustment period. The first few weeks of coming home from work to find our bedroom destroyed, with a dozen new sex toys I’d never seen, along with new bruises and scratches all over my wife’s body, it was a lot to take in, even though I’d ostensibly given her permission for all of it. It was about this time I started seeing a cognitive behavioral therapist, which was my first ever experience with therapy; I needed all the help I could get! Things escalated even further about a month later when the girls decided it was time to get the guys involved. Over the next few weeks, we developed an unspoken system where Bestie would visit our house multiple times a week for threesomes with my wife and I (new and exciting for me, for sure), and my wife would reciprocate multiple times a week at Bestie’s house with her husband. I was so excited about gaining a physical element with my own longtime crush that I gave my wife permission with the other husband perhaps a little too quickly, but as time has passed, that too has normalized for the most part. The girls even began spending a night or two a week sleeping in the other couples’ beds! I still can’t wrap my head around how much life had changed between June and August… I was given only one rule at the start of threesome season, and that was to avoid talking about it around the husband, because he was taking longer to come to terms with sharing his wife with another man (though a woman was fine, in his eyes, I guess). I understood completely, and I followed that rule out of respect for my friend. However, I must not respect him that much, because only after about the fifth threesome did I fully discover that Bestie was keeping him in the dark about everything that was happening at my house! What the hell did he think was going on when his wife slept over? And did this mean that he thought my wife was cheating on me with him, because apparently he didn’t even know that I already knew what happened over there? How did we get in this mess where our entire friend crew is at stake when all the secrets come out? That was at least two months ago, and twenty more threesomes later, I still haven’t found the answer to that aspect of this, only digging that hole further. Despite the insanity and the secrets, the four of us still hang out a ton as friends, and we have plans to spend every holiday together this season, so we must still be doing something right? Maybe? The sex is amazing, and the anxieties over losing my wife are mostly gone. But here’s the kicker: I’m alone all the goddamn time. My wife and I barely eat evening meals together anymore. I work hard 12 hour shifts and come home to an empty, unclean house far too often for my taste. Wife and Bestie work the same schedule, so they always have opportunities for time together while I’m at work, which seems to make more sense than them being together while I’m off, but there’s still quite a bit of carryover. I’ve found myself doing more and more (and more) of the housework, something I did most of before anyway, but now I do it as essentially the only person living in my house for days at a time. Bestie makes my wife happy in ways and to a degree that I apparently never did, and because I genuinely love her so much, I’m happy she’s this happy. And I’ve gained quite a bit here as well, now having my first ever friends-with-benefits relationship with Bestie, who is an absolutely amazing person to be around. The new highs are so high, but all these new lows of the loneliness that comes on the days in between are really taking their toll on me. This week in particular, I’m realizing that what I’m actually jealous of is the particular type of deep friendship/sexual relationship combo that Wife and Bestie have with each other, because it’s different in quality than anything I’ve ever had. The two of them cannot possibly have enough sex with each other, which is different than at any point in what I’d previously thought was a good and fulfilling 2-4 times a week life with me (which I can understand now having seen them together, because holy hell!) They share more common interests with each other than I do with either, and they’re both extreme extroverts on the same work schedule, so they essentially meet all of each other’s needs at this point, and I’m not sure what I even add anymore. They eat most meals together, including at work, they shop together, they travel together, they do housework together (in a way my wife and I never really did even in our own house). I’ve voiced some of my concerns to my wife and have asked for certain small concessions as we’ve trial-and-errored our way through this, and she really has made an effort to make sure I still feel loved and taken care of. But the problem is this: despite how much my wife loves me, the type of relationship I’d like to have is one in which the person I’m with is as desperate to live life alongside me as she is to live it alongside her Bestie. Is that unreasonable? Can my wife return to being more of that person, while also keeping her extremely fulfilling relationship with Bestie alive? I don’t want her to give that up, because they’re perfect for each other. Can we survive yet another transition to a fully open marriage on my side as well? If not, do I as an introvert with social anxiety even have what it takes to start my life over at 38, because if I leave I immediately lose my wife/best friend and the rest of the only family have? I don’t know what to do, but I can’t handle being this alone on the off days and feeling this lonely even on the on days without someone to share more of my passions with as they do with each other anymore.


 Hire a house cleaning service and continue to enjoy the great sex. Lucky guy!


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## Lynnsnake (Dec 4, 2021)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> I’m a M38, together with a F35 for 14 years, married for 12, happy with no kids. We’ve been through some pretty major life traumas during our marriage and survived unscathed or even come out stronger (major career changes, death of a sibling, religious deconversions, rejection/alienation from extended family). Early June of 2022 brought the strangest challenge yet.
> For the last 4 years or so, my wife has become extremely close friends with a married couple who are both colleagues of hers, and over time I warmed up to them as well, creating a very strong 4 person friend group that has essentially become our shared family. The initial problem was that as those years passed, I developed a deeper and deeper crush on her best friend, and though I would never have acted on it, I was terrified that eventually I would laugh too hard at one of her flirty jokes or give myself away in some other fashion, potentially hurting my wife or the other husband and ruining my only real friend group in the process. Part of what I love about who I’ll call “Bestie” is that she is always up for certain activities (swimming, ping pong, driveway basketball, watching sports) to a degree that my wife is not, and as summer approached and we began to spend more time doing those things, my feelings for Bestie reached a point where I felt like I couldn’t keep the secret anymore. It had to come out, so my wife might as well hear it from me.  But when we sat down to talk, I had no idea what would happen next…
> 
> My wife wasn’t jealous at all; in fact, she completely understood! Oh, and while we’re sharing secrets, here’s one of mine, she says—- she’s been afraid to tell me she’s bisexual for the entire 14 years of our relationship, and she’s been in love with her Bestie for longer than I had! What?!? It was the most freeing conversation we’d ever had to that point. We opened up about needs and wants and secret fantasies, and we started the process of deciding what the rest of our lives might look like if we embraced this new freedom route. She and Bestie were already booked for a weeklong vacation trip to Denver as friends the following week (I couldn’t get out of work to join them), so I gave my wife permission to pursue her sexually as long as every other party involved consented so as not to risk our friends over this. I love my wife dearly and wanted her to be fulfilled. I was unprepared for the degree to which things quickly escalated.
> ...


Hire a house cleaning service and continue living every man’s fantasy as long as you can.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

Lynnsnake said:


> Hire a house cleaning service and continue to enjoy the great sex. Lucky guy!


Ha! Now this is the encouragement I need 😎 
Now if the cleaning crew wants to hang out and watch Cavs games with me on my alone nights I’ll be all set!


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> No, I’m not okay with her husband not knowing, but yes, I’ve continued to do it anyway, which makes me a ****ty friend and worse. I think the original intent was that over time, as he got more and more out of his side of the arrangement, Bestie could slowly open his mind up to reciprocity, but I don’t believe that has actually happened yet, and I didn’t expect it to take this long. And while Bestie genuinely enjoys her time with me (I think 🤔), I’ve always suspected that an element of it is her just trying to keep me satisfied so I don’t try to take my wife back away from her. Both things may be true. As far as what would happen if he found out at this point, I shudder to think, although he came around on the girls being in a legit second relationship relatively quickly. It’s a huge risk for sure.
> Yes, I do feel like I’m getting my wife’s leftovers all the time. I’ve talked to her about this feeling on several occasions, and she swears she loves me deeply and never wants to lose me, and she’s (eventually) given me every specific concession I’ve asked for to this point. I go through stretches where I feel like everything is okay, but every few weeks I fall back into the lonely hole, and every time it gets deeper.


Here's a question for you to think about (and to ask your wife.)
*If it is true that she loves you and doesn't want to lose you, then why is she acting as if your relationship is the second?*
Follow up with this one:
I*f you value us so much, why do I have to ask for "Concessions". and why haven't you set some boundaries or safeguards to protect our relationship?*
See if she can give you a honest and thoughtful response to these two questions.
I still stand by my previous post. This is a train wreck in the making.
Wait until Bestie's husband finds out the true picture. If he isn't pissed, he should be, and he has every right to be. Not only has he been disrespected, he has lost agency in his relationship, if not his relationship all together.
If he gets pissed and terminates the friendship, or walks away from his wife all together, I wouldn't blame him.
The only way that anything like this works long term is total honesty and transparency by all with boundaries and safeguards established to protect everyone and their relationships that are strongly adhered to.
The only potential way to clean up this mess is that the brakes are put on all of this indefinitely for everyone to repair their respective relationships and then *everyone* sits down and has an *equal say* in what is going to happen, and appropriate safeguards and boundaries are put in place to protect everyone and their appropriate relationships.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

You simply got played. You got lured in to a friendly game of pool with a couple pool sharks. They were more clever, more crafty and better strategists and they simply outplayed you. Sounds like they played a number on the other guy as well. well played ladies, well played 👏

If you all were to have this wonderful all-inclusive poly relationship between the 4 of you, don't you think the 4 of you would have gotten together all 4 of you for 4-ways instead of this complex rotating schedule of 3-ways without everyone in the know???

You have a couple options here -

- One is you can keep being the bumbling idiot that just kind of goes along with whatever scheme the girls concoct because it means you get to play with another set of boobies and watch girls kissy kiss on each other. ... at least until they decide they've had enough of you and send you on your way. 

- Another is you can act all self-righteous and claim she is a cheater and divorce her and walk away. 

But if you decide to stay, the only way you are going to survive is if you pull your head out of your keester and grow some giblets and start laying down the law. It is possible to live in these kinds of arrangments but you have to be the biggest and baddest stud horse in the stable. 

So far you've been passive and going with the flow like a cork bobbing in the ocean being carried by the winds and tides. 

Regardless of which direction you want to go with this, for you to get through this without being completely railroaded and cuckolded and then left along the side of the road, you need to get a map and compass and motorboat with an engine and direct your own course and stop floating around aimlessly like a cork.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Lonelyboy430 Well, luckily you don't have children. Do the other couple have children? I do hope not.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

What a mess. Lies, deceit, adultery, you are all crazy. 
It will just get worse when your wife leaves you for the
other lying cheating wife . As Matt says I so hope there are no children involved in the other marriage. 
With friends like that who needs enemies.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Lynnsnake said:


> Hire a house cleaning service and continue living every man’s fantasy as long as you can.


It's really not every man's fantasy. Some men actually love and only want to be with their wife believe it or not. The decent ones anyway.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

MattMatt said:


> @Lonelyboy430 Well, luckily you don't have children. Do the other couple have children? I do hope not.


Nope, no kids. We had tried for awhile and suffered a miscarriage before giving up. The other couple had tried for years with no success, but are now approaching the age where it’s probably not gonna happen. Adoption in the future is still on the table for them, with the assumption that we’ll all raise them together if we don’t all implode by then 🤷🏻‍♂️ How is this my life


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> Nope, no kids. We had tried for awhile and suffered a miscarriage before giving up. The other couple had tried for years with no success, but are now approaching the age where it’s probably not gonna happen. Adoption in the future is still on the table for them, with the assumption that we’ll all raise them together if we don’t all implode by then 🤷🏻‍♂️ How is this my life


A very unstable situation to bring a child into. There is no way a child in the UK would be put in such a dysfunctional situation for adoption.


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## Exit37 (3 mo ago)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> Adoption in the future is still on the table for them, with the assumption that we’ll all raise them together if we don’t all implode by then 🤷🏻‍♂️ How is this my life


How can that be the assumption when the other man doesn't even know you're banging his wife? I don't know what's worse, that the three of you are keeping that from him, or that he thinks he's having sex with your wife behind your back. This is not a health relationship, and certainly not one in which you want to communally raise a child.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Lonelyboy, a couple thoughts..... I am curious how your wife seems to be okay sharing you with bestie most women have a deep jealousy not to want to share their man even though they are having sex with someone else...by that measure I am guessing the nights you are alone she does not want to share you with yet another woman you find on your own....here is what I am trying to say....your wife is the kingpin in all of this....she is truly in control of all of three relationships....she approached you first then bestie and then through her husband....she is now in control of all three relationships and managing like as juggler...now you may not want to face that but it is true because as you noted she is having to make concessions to make you happy and oh by the way she is also probably making concessions to bestie and her husband as well....what I am saying is mentally, emotionally, and perhaps physically this is not a substantially model where someone or someones will not get hurt. And trust me the other husband is not stupid I think he knows but may not say anything because he gets to have sex with your wife...in fact your wife is the one common factor where she is having sex all the time which again illustrate my point. Ask your self this if you had to make a real choice here..... whose relationships matters most here would she pick bestie over you? Or you over bestie....I think the genie is out of the bottle and you will never have the same relationship with your wife again if bestie. Was out of the picture. She would find someone else to replace her,. And that may come with new problems.... I am not here to judge you are all adults I am purely looking at this from statistical psychological view of strength and weaknesses in relationships....and right now in a game of poker your wife is holding all the cards and doling them out as need be to keep the game going.


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

Just wondering what happens when he finds out that you are having sex with his wife ?
If he really doesn't know, isn't it awkward when your around him ?


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## BoSlander (5 mo ago)

Something tells me this ain't going to end well...


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Jimi007 said:


> Just wondering what happens when he finds out that you are having sex with his wife ?
> If he really doesn't know, isn't it awkward when your around him ?


Yeah, doesn't pass the smell test. How could two guys that are such good friends be banging the OM's wife in threesomes and not say something to each other? And not questioning frequent sleep overs?  could these be the two stupidest men alive?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BoSlander said:


> Something tells me this ain't going to end well...


You think


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

Lostinthought61 said:


> Lonelyboy, a couple thoughts..... I am curious how your wife seems to be okay sharing you with bestie most women have a deep jealousy not to want to share their man even though they are having sex with someone else...by that measure I am guessing the nights you are alone she does not want to share you with yet another woman you find on your own....here is what I am trying to say....your wife is the kingpin in all of this....she is truly in control of all of three relationships....she approached you first then bestie and then through her husband....she is now in control of all three relationships and managing like as juggler...now you may not want to face that but it is true because as you noted she is having to make concessions to make you happy and oh by the way she is also probably making concessions to bestie and her husband as well....what I am saying is mentally, emotionally, and perhaps physically this is not a substantially model where someone or someones will not get hurt. And trust me the other husband is not stupid I think he knows but may not say anything because he gets to have sex with your wife...in fact your wife is the one common factor where she is having sex all the time which again illustrate my point. Ask your self this if you had to make a real choice here..... whose relationships matters most here would she pick bestie over you? Or you over bestie....I think the genie is out of the bottle and you will never have the same relationship with your wife again if bestie. Was out of the picture. She would find someone else to replace her,. And that may come with new problems.... I am not here to judge you are all adults I am purely looking at this from statistical psychological view of strength and weaknesses in relationships....and right now in a game of poker your wife is holding all the cards and doling them out as need be to keep the game going.


Thanks again for all the engagement here. A friend suggested this forum to me only a couple days ago, so I’m a completely new user. I wanted to acknowledge all the criticism I’ve received as valid first of all, but I also wanted to elaborate on a few key points to add some nuance and to argue that we may be much more functional than my initial posts have made it seem, as unusual a set up as it is. And yes, even if it is temporarily functional, I realize that doesn’t mean it’s stable. Here goes…

1) About the possibility of bringing kids into this— all talk of kids took place during the year spent dreaming about our future shared double house. There has been no further talk of kids since the sex started, and I don’t anticipate that changing any time soon (though talk of the double house has continued). You are all correct that now is not the time for kids (though I will also argue that the 4 of us are kickass aunts and uncles for Bestie’s single-parent sister’s 2 adorable little girls). 
2) The other husband was told via the girls months ago (and this is essentially true in spirit if not in words) that I gave my wife a “blank check” to act in any way she saw fit when she is at their house without me. Thus, he does not seem to believe he and my wife are doing anything inappropriate. I did not initially know this conversation had happened, so there was an intermediate time where I wondered how he was justifying it all. From what I understand, my friend prefers to live his life in an extremely compartmentalized state, and he does not prefer to communicate emotionally or vulnerably even with his wife unless absolutely necessary. That’s between them I suppose. But I also believe he projects me as a man to be the same way as he is, so out of deference to me, he chooses not to talk to me about anything involving my wife so as to keep it from being awkward with me. I don’t believe he can relate to the type of relationship I have with my wife, one in which we communicate openly about virtually everything. I choose not to dive into all the explicit details of what goes on there, but she would share if I asked, and I’ve been aware of the general picture since the beginning, and I granted permission for all of it. Yes, there was quite an anxiety-filled adjustment period, but a few months in, and it’s all good now. Let all the consenting adults enjoy themselves. Life is short.
3) Yes, it’s wrong that I’ve continued to enjoy his wife without his knowledge and permission, especially after just arguing for consent. I honestly believe he has to know what’s going on by this point, but until I know for sure, the fault is mine and his wife’s. She believes he is fully happy in this state of blissful ignorance and wants to protect him from stress. He actually enjoys all the extra time alone as an extreme introvert, so he can exercise, enjoy the pets, watch the big game, and get work done to his hearts content when she’s out of the house, and he gets a threesome or 2 a week for his trouble. The few times I’ve talked directly to Bestie (my term for his wife on this forum), she has argued that our set-up is a “win-win-win-win.” At least in the short term, she’s mostly been correct, with the biggest issues being the time-bomb of her husband in the dark and the time-bomb of me struggling to deal with my own additional alone time. 
4) I wanted to quickly paint a big picture view of the 4 of us the closest friend group I’ve ever had. For the last 3 years since I really bought all the way in, we’ve been on group dates multiple nights a week for dinner, bowling, trivia nights, and baseball games. We’ve begun celebrating all holidays together, and it’s assumed at this point that all weekends will be spent together, some time of which is usually dedicated to tag team yard work or home projects or meal-prep for the following work week. We’ve been swapping spouses as board game night and ping pong partners for years. Both Bestie and her hubs are coaches for a local HS boys team, and my wife and I are their biggest supporters, going to every single game, sponsoring equipment for the kids, and even working hours in Bestie’s garage to hand-press dozens and dozens of sets of custom warm-up gear for the kids and merch to sell for the program. We’ve been all in as a family for years, with a degree of love there that I’ve never experienced before. As crazy at is sounds, I love Bestie and her hubs so much that I completely trust them with my wife and am legitimately happy she has them. I hope in time to be able to have the conversation that confirms hubs feels the same about us, which again I believe he does but sadly haven’t confirmed yet. 
5) A final quick story to illustrate a common weekend—- I was off last Friday while everyone else worked. I spent several hours slaving away at the infinite pile of leaves in my yard, then I enjoyed a basketball game and a good workout. The girls stopped at my house after their work to hang out for about an hour, during which we caught up on life and got in a few games of ping pong. There was no quick threesome that day but any other time there might have been. The girls got ready and left for a date night concert in the neighboring big city about 30 minutes away. I spent the evening alone meal-prepping for my work weekend. I got lonely, so I killed time by going Christmas shopping for a Bestie gift because she’d given me an idea for her during our chat before they left. I watched a game that night and got to bed alone on time for work in the morning. The girls loved the concert and stayed in a hotel, where I’m sure they enjoyed themselves. I worked my normal 12 hours on Saturday, and the girls spent the day brewery-hopping as a couple and enjoying life. They then returned to my house, where hubs met them as I got home from work. The 4 of us had a great dinner together, wife-swapped for a game night, and then I finished off with a relaxing tv and snuggle with my wife after they left. May-me would have thought a life like this was absolutely insane, and June-me was broken enough by the insanity to start therapy, but November-me finds it normal and is pretty happy most of the time. I wish my people-skills were a little better so I could find ways to fill those few extra lonely nights a week though…
6) Which reminds me, no, my wife initially was not okay with the idea of the marriage being open for me to explore as well. This caused issues with us in June and July, but not because I actually wanted to explore (I’m a fairly shy guy who has never had sex with someone I didn’t love deeply before); it bothered me to no end that she didn’t see our situation at the time as wildly unfair in her direction. As time passed though, and after she and I began enjoying Bestie together, she and I have now surprisingly arrived at a place where we’re actually sexually gratified by seeing each other find pleasure in other people, or at least in our friends that we love (as there have been no people from outside the group yet and likely will not be). My wife has now given me permission to spend my alone nights however I see fit, with the caveat that she prefers I find someone I care deeply about if I do explore. My wife and I were fairly religious 15 years ago when we met, dated, and married, before both becoming nonbelievers about 8 years ago. Because of my past, I didn’t really experience the modern dating scene in my youth, and now with my social anxiety it seems like a monumental task to dive in to the point of finding someone else to love on my downtime even if I’m allowed to do so. Despite the loneliness on those days, I don’t think that’s what I need. Maybe a dog 🐕 😂


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yeah, doesn't pass the smell test. How could two guys that are such good friends be banging the OM's wife in threesomes and not say something to each other? And not questioning frequent sleep overs?  could these be the two stupidest men alive?


I was actually typing a response to this point while you posted, so there is a deeper explanation below (or above 🤔) if you’re curious. I know 100% of what’s going on, so at most, only one of the men is stupid 😋. Essentially, we both support the relationship between the girls, so most sleepovers/daytime spent with them at the each other’s houses is thought of as “their time.” As far as the sleepovers at my house, they have all taken place after a justifiable reason, usually something like the girls had a late night out getting drinks with friends and Bestie didn’t want to drive the half hour home (we live much closer to the city). We have a nice guest room that I actually do sleep in sometimes so the girls can have our bed, what a giving husband. My bud can tell himself whatever he wants happens before sleep to feel better, and he gets his mind blown a couple times a week too, so we’re all even? Maybe? 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> I was actually typing a response to this point while you posted, so there is a deeper explanation below (or above 🤔) if you’re curious. I know 100% of what’s going on, so at most, only one of the men is stupid 😋. Essentially, we both support the relationship between the girls, so most sleepovers/daytime spent with them at the each other’s houses is thought of as “their time.” As far as the sleepovers at my house, they have all taken place after a justifiable reason, usually something like the girls had a late night out getting drinks with friends and Bestie didn’t want to drive the half hour home (we live much closer to the city). We have a nice guest room that I actually do sleep in sometimes so the girls can have our bed, what a giving husband. My bud can tell himself whatever he wants happens before sleep to feel better, and he gets his mind blown a couple times a week too, so we’re all even? Maybe? 🤷🏻‍♂️


So you are all okay with lying to her husband, either directly or by omission. If your wives do that so easily, what make you think they aren't lying to you? How many guys do you think we're in the hotel room with them after that concert? Can you believe them if they said it was just them? If so, why? They are very comfortable with lying. 

It also speaks volumes that you can transactionally exchange lying and sex to make it all better.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Sick. That’s all this is F’d up


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## umbluu (Jan 24, 2020)

--- How many guys do you think we're in the hotel room with them after that concert?

This may be a bit of a too black and white thinking - the fact that someone is up for X and Y does not necessarily mean that one is up for EVERYTHING. But the question remains - you know for sure your women are lying to another man. How do you know they are not lying to you? Yes, you have a theory - you have more open / sharing everything relationship with your wife than the other guy has with his wife.. But how sure you are about that?
I actually got another idea - what if the women tell each husband (both you and him) exactly the same thing? So the other husband knows more than you think he knows but thinks you do not know?


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So you are all okay with lying to her husband, either directly or by omission. If your wives do that so easily, what make you think they aren't lying to you? How many guys do you think we're in the hotel room with them after that concert? Can you believe them if they said it was just them? If so, why? They are very comfortable with lying.
> 
> It also speaks volumes that you can transactionally exchange lying and sex to make it all better.


You make all valid points. I have no reason to believe anyone else was in the hotel room with them, but other than the fact that I completely trust my wife after being together for 14 years and have had great communication along the way, I have no way to know for sure. This is the third hotel night for them in ~ 5 months, but it always has involved a brewery day in the city on either side of the hotel stay, and neither hubs nor I are big drinkers, so the hotel just makes sense from a girls-night, no designated driver needed sort of perspective. It also makes sense as a way for the girls to enjoy dates as part of a young relationship that I fully support and endorse, while also letting it remain secret from friends and family, as neither are ready to come out fully yet.
As for the lies of omission and commission to the husband, this is the single biggest issue left to solve. When the threesomes started on my side, I honestly believed he knew and consented. I wasn’t lied to about it, I just misinterpreted the situation and didn’t realize it until later. But at that time, I’d never experienced anything as sexually intense as what my life had become, and I admit I didn’t have my priorities straight. I was living a fantasy life and I didn’t want to stop. I didn’t expect him to still be in the dark all these months later, and I’d love to talk to him about it, but I think Bestie needs a chance to come clean herself first. You are all correct it needs to happen soon.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

umbluu said:


> --- How many guys do you think we're in the hotel room with them after that concert?
> 
> This may be a bit of a too black and white thinking - the fact that someone is up for X and Y does not necessarily mean that one is up for EVERYTHING. But the question remains - you know for sure your women are lying to another man. How do you know they are not lying to you? Yes, you have a theory - you have more open / sharing everything relationship with your wife than the other guy has with his wife.. But how sure you are about that?
> I actually got another idea - what if the women tell each husband (both you and him) exactly the same thing? So the other husband knows more than you think he knows but thinks you do not know?


Anything is possible I guess. From what I understand, hubs was torn up for 10 days or so and became deeply depressed in June when Bestie first came to him after my wife came out with her sexual feelings for her. Bestie tried to convince hubs that she wasn’t leaving him, that she loved him deeply, and she would continue to prioritize his needs. Nothing she said worked, until during a date night, she threw out as an aside, “you know, there might be threesomes for you if you’re ok with this…” And that was what it took to get his buy-in! He’s been the happiest dude every time I’ve seen him since. He’s even had a few pretty deep emotionally-connecting talks with my wife during times she’s been over there, as I guess she is a more emotional communicator than Bestie. He and I still interact great as friends multiple times a week, and we just live in this weird space where we’ve learned to not acknowledge our own involvement with the girls as a way to keep it from being awkward. I’m POSITIVE he suspects, but I don’t know what he knows. There have even been a few times we’ve all been at their house at night where it was prearranged that my wife was staying over (like maybe I had work in the morning or something), so I’d kiss her goodbye, give Bestie a quick hug, and then shake my bro’s hand and wish everyone a great night knowing full well what was about to happen after I left, whether or not he knew that I knew. I know it’s a weird life. It took me awhile to be ok with it, hopefully he can be ok with it soon. There’s definitely no going back to the way it was before now.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

Also want to note real quick, I can’t defend the lying and won’t try. I know it doesn’t seem like it, but I used to think before all of this madness that all 4 of us were really good people. This started from a place of open mindedness and love. Hopefully we can fix the issues and keep the good stuff.


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## Teacherwifemom (5 mo ago)

What the four of you as consenting adults decide to do is no one’s business but your own. But make no mistake, none of this has anything to do with love. And it is not fully consenting. You are making a fool of one that you all claim to love as family. You are screwing this other husband’s wife and he is not in the know. You are not his friend. That is cheating. His wife is cheating on him and you are betraying him in the worst way possible. It’s disgusting and I don’t know how either of you can live with yourself. You claim to love this man and you so easily screw his wife behind his back. That is not love. That is not friendship. You are all just laughing at him. You barely feel bad about the lying. All of this betrayal is okay with you as long as you’re getting your rocks off with the threesome multiple times a week. Read that again. That makes you all disgusting humans. None of you are moral. You go on and on about about how this other husband is such a good friend. You are in no way a good friend to him. I also can’t believe no one else has pointed this out, but the way your wife and the bestie took to this within about a second of you giving the go ahead makes me believe they started long before it was your idea. If this is how you treat your best guy friend I can’t imagine how you treat other people.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think this is a nonsense story, but I also think if true, the other guy shouldn’t be too pissed about op banging his old lady when he’s banging the op’s. And yes he’d be an idiot if he doesn’t know.


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## Lonelyboy430 (2 mo ago)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think this is a nonsense story, but I also think if true, the other guy shouldn’t be too pissed about op banging his old lady when he’s banging the op’s. And yes he’d be an idiot if he doesn’t know.


I know it seems like a nonsense story, and for a few months there at the start I couldn’t believe it was happening to me either. And it’s probably all my fault, because if I hadn’t felt so guilty initially for having a crush on my wife’s best friend that I confessed, I don’t think my wife ever would’ve opened up about her bisexuality, she even told me she wouldn’t have. Me and my spouse both being in love with each other and then both falling in love with the same other person is absolutely insane! And yes to all commenters, I’m a piece of **** for what we’re doing to the other husband. I’m gonna fix this asap.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Lonelyboy430 said:


> I know it seems like a nonsense story, and for a few months there at the start I couldn’t believe it was happening to me either. And it’s probably all my fault, because if I hadn’t felt so guilty initially for having a crush on my wife’s best friend that I confessed, I don’t think my wife ever would’ve opened up about her bisexuality, she even told me she wouldn’t have. Me and my spouse both being in love with each other and then both falling in love with the same other person is absolutely insane! And yes to all commenters, I’m a piece of **** for what we’re doing to the other husband. I’m gonna fix this asap.


Glad you at least plan to stop leaving your "friend" in the dark. I really think the both of you got played by your wives. They engineered this whole thing. I wouldn't trust either one if them.


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## Jimi007 (5 mo ago)

Yup.....Zero trust


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