# Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?



## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

We are all aware of the reality that all humans lie. We periodically lie to ourselves, and frequently lie on some level to others. 

So why do you think men and women search high and low for honesty and require "truthful" partners? 







(Opinions will absolutely vary, so please refrain from taking adverserial stances against other members. We are here to learn much more than we are here to defend.)


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

Honesty and truthfulness provides security in the relationship. I at least want a secure happy place to go when I go home and an honest and truthful person provides it more than not.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

*Honesty and truthfulness has always been the universal hallmark in most all human relationships! 

Without it, there would be nothing but unneeded chaos and rampant deceit!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

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Cause why waste your time with liars??

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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

All humans lie. 

So do men and women draw the line as to what is acceptable and what is not from others?

And do we draw certain lines for our own actions as to what is acceptable dishonesty? 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

Can't speak for others but I need to sleep 7 or so hours a night. Would have a hard time doing so next to someone I didn't trust.

Choosing not to differentiate between a chronic liar and an overall honest person (who tells small lies on occasion) is just bizarre.




Apexmale said:


> We are all aware of the reality that all humans lie. We periodically lie to ourselves, and frequently lie on some level to others.
> 
> So why do you think men and women search high and low for honesty and require "truthful" partners?
> 
> ...


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



MEM2020 said:


> Can't speak for others but I need to sleep 7 or so hours a night. Would have a hard time doing so next to someone I didn't trust.
> 
> Choosing not to differentiate between a chronic liar and an overall honest person (who tells small lies on occasion) is just bizarre.


We lie so often we sometimes don't realize we do it.

Humans don't "need" 7 hours of sleep a night. We can survive on less. 7 to 9 hours of sleep is what is suggested, but no where near the "need" we require to properly function or survive. 

I bet you would do just fine on 6 hours a night.

I personally get 4 to 6 and a half hours of sleep, motionless for an average of about 82% to 87%. 

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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

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arbitrator said:


> *Honesty and truthfulness has always been the universal order in most all human relationships!
> 
> Without it, there would be nothing but unneeded chaos and rampant deceit!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because honesty and truthfulness became scarcer when building societies, laws, policies, and procedures took thier place.

We lie on some levels on our online profiles, internet posts, progress, our dieting, our workouts, our driving habits, job applications, resumes, credit applications, etc.... 

Do you think the universal order among human relationships changed a long time ago?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> Because honesty and truthfulness became scarcer when building societies, laws, policies, and procedures took thier place.
> 
> We lie on some levels on our online profiles, internet posts, progress, our dieting, our workouts, our driving habits, job applications, resumes, credit applications, etc....
> 
> Do you think the universal order among human relationships changed a long time ago?


*Suffice it to say that it has gotten worse over the due course of time!

With the technological age continuing to advance, I can see it getting much more worse! 

Over time, truthfulness and honesty will become more aligned in being of a spiritual concept, moreso than one of simple human derivation, the way that I feel that God had intended it to be!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

If I told you, you wouldn't believe me. >


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



tech-novelist said:


> If I told you, you wouldn't believe me. >


Hmmmm... are you telling the truth?  

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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

We need trust in order to have a cooperative relationship. With no cooperation and trust you simply can't have a functional relationship. If you are going to check and recheck a person anytime they do ANYTHING you would be better off alone. 

You seem to be harping on the notion that people "lie all the time" and therefore cannot be trusted. I see trust and lying on a sliding scale. If I lie about having a KitKat and a Coke at lunch, the only person impacted is me. Is it wrong to lie about it, sure, but there is no real harm here. If my wife asks me what I'm th8nking and it's some stupid random "guy crap" I'll just lie and say "nothing" because that's what it amounts too. No harm there either. 

But, if I steal money, cheat, or in some way act harmful to my relationships, then yes it's a big deal. I simply have to be able to trust my partner, friends, or family to act and do as they say they will. 

From prehistoric times through the present, being able to trust those around us helps us to function and survive. Prehistoric humans relied on each for hunting and any number of other actions that could be dangerous. Today, we don't need our spouse or friends to watch our back for deadly creatures, but they sure as heck should guard against the venomous kind!


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



TX-SC said:


> If my wife asks me what I'm thinking and it's some stupid random "guy crap" I'll just lie and say "nothing" because that's what it amounts too. No harm there either.




Will your wife agree this (small lie) behavior is ok?


I think we've come to expect a certain level of deception in our relationships.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



meson said:


> Honesty and truthfulness provides security in the relationship. I at least want a secure happy place to go when I go home and an honest and truthful person provides it more than not.


I've met a lot of people who lie about being honest. 

These forums are full of experiences of those struggling with those very types in thier own homes.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> Will your wife agree this (small lie) behavior is ok?
> 
> 
> I think we've come to expect a certain level of deception in our relationships.


Yes, because if I do tell her then she says, "Sheesh, I just wasted 10 minutes of my life listening to that?"


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

TRUE!!! There are lots of people who lie, for one reason or the other. But there are also people that tell the truth. Sure they are in the minority, but they are there. The reason being, that people that tell the truth have to face the consequence's for what they said or did. So take that for what it's worth.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Palodyne said:


> TRUE!!! There are lots of people who lie, for one reason or the other. But there are also people that tell the truth. Sure they are in the minority, but they are there. The reason being, that people that tell the truth have to face the consequence's for what they said or did. So take that for what it's worth.


Do you believe there are people who tell the truth 100% of the time or "most" of the time?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



TX-SC said:


> Yes, because if I do tell her then she says, "Sheesh, I just wasted 10 minutes of my life listening to that?"


I take atleast 15 minutes to explain "random guy crap". My thoughts are always in HD 1080p so it takes longer to explain.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

I very rarely depart from the truth. In some cases I don't say something I'm thinking, but that's not lying.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

BECAUSE-

Because, I hate sleeping behind a locked door, with a loaded gun at my hand, a knife under my pillow and......... with one dry, red EYE OPEN.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

I want to be able to trust because that is efficient. Having a partner you don't need to watch or check up on saves a huge amount of effort and can be a huge help. I don't worry that my wife is stealing money from our accounts, drugging my food, or engaging in any other activity that could cause me harm. If I go into the hospital, I fully trust that her intentions will be in my best interest.

Interestingly, sexual fidelity is not nearly as important to me. If she had an affair, I'd be annoyed, but not devastated, there would be no direct harm to me.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

Same reason as we want people in all aspects of our life to be honest and trustworthy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

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uhtred said:


> I want to be able to trust because that is efficient. Having a partner you don't need to watch or check up on saves a huge amount of effort and can be a huge help. I don't worry that my wife is stealing money from our accounts, drugging my food, or engaging in any other activity that could cause me harm. If I go into the hospital, I fully trust that her intentions will be in my best interest.
> 
> Interestingly, sexual fidelity is not nearly as important to me. If she had an affair, I'd be annoyed, but not devastated, there would be no direct harm to me.


Unless she brought you an STD or HIV?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

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Apexmale said:


> Do you believe there are people who tell the truth 100% of the time or "most" of the time?


 Most of the time. Everyone tells little white lies to avoid hurting someone's feelings, but I do believe there are people who tell the truth when it counts, when it is important. 100% of the time would be awesome. But no one can achieve that goal.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

Probably the worse thing about lying is the once you're caught, the person you lied to can never take at face value anything you ever say again.

Irony-embracing both the truth and political correctness at the same time.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

If we all agree that we all at some point lie on some level, even if its to protect others, then why do we all seek someone who is honest and truthful when we ourselves are not?





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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

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Ampex, with me I can live with them being truthful within three standard deviation of the mean (99.73%). I fall somewhere between one and two standard deviations. That make me a hypocrite. If I said anything else, Id probably be lying.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> If we all agree that we all at some point lie on some level, even if its to protect others, then why do we all seek someone who is honest and truthful when we ourselves are not?


I should've seen this coming, a rephrasing of the opening post question. I guess you didn't believe our answers. :|

Why do you post a question online when you know we are all liars?
The answer to this might answer your OP.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> We are all aware of the reality that all humans lie. We periodically lie to ourselves, and frequently lie on some level to others.
> 
> So why do you think men and women search high and low for honesty and require "truthful" partners?


You posted this in the coping with infidelity thread so OBVIOUSLY you are inferring one thing.

Why bother with monogamy? Isn't that the crux of your question? Then we don't have to bother with lying about cheating? 

Humans invented marriage to institute monogamy. We have monogamy so the cavemen would stop murdering each other over mate stealing.

Just as humans "lie" they are also "jealous" and "egocentric" creatures. Monogamy is the societal recognition of, "hey everyone, this mate is mine".

Hence the ceremony and production that goes into marriage as a formal declaration. This is what civilization is.... being civilized.

It's far more orderly than everyone running around humping each other and pumping out babies that no one knows who they belong too.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



BetrayedDad said:


> Humans invented marriage to institute monogamy. We have monogamy so the cavemen would stop murdering each other over mate stealing.


When you look at the % of killings and azz beating related to mate stealing, I don't think it worked very well.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



VladDracul said:


> When you look at the % of killings and azz beating related to mate stealing, I don't think it worked very well.


Multiple that by 10,000 back in a time where there were no police, lawyers or judges. 

The whole clan just showed up to your cave and clubbed you both to death.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

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Gave new meaning to exposing the affair to the OM's wife and family.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> Do you believe there are people who tell the truth 100% of the time or "most" of the time?


My wife tells the truth all the time.

It can be a bit wearing on the nerves after a while. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



uhtred said:


> I want to be able to trust because that is efficient. Having a partner you don't need to watch or check up on saves a huge amount of effort and can be a huge help. I don't worry that my wife is stealing money from our accounts, drugging my food, or engaging in any other activity that could cause me harm. If I go into the hospital, I fully trust that her intentions will be in my best interest.
> 
> Interestingly, sexual fidelity is not nearly as important to me. *If she had an affair, I'd be annoyed, but not devastated*, there would be no direct harm to me.


Quite an admission. A minority opinion, especially on TAM.

If I may ask? Have you been faithful in your marriage? Was past polyamory in your marriage a truism, but now is an agreed-upon no-no?

Why is infidelity NOT a deal breaker?

Naturally, it is your' marriage, you can do, within it, as you please.

You threw out the bait......I bit...I am on the hook waiting for your truth to break our virtual-surface-parting-line....when I can see who snagged me from my clear depths.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



MattMatt said:


> My wife tells the truth all the time.
> 
> It can be a bit wearing on the nerves after a while.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, the Truth hurts.....HER TRUTH or Factual Truth.....which can {or not} be the same.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



uhtred said:


> Interestingly, sexual fidelity is not nearly as important to me. If she had an affair, I'd be annoyed


Wow... Speechless.

I'm annoyed if I stub my toe. You are annoyed if your wife sleeps with other men.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

Yes. 
It she transmits a disease to me, then I'm more unhappy - depending on how serious it is. 

Otherwise why should I care that much? She is not my property. I'd much prefer she spend her time with me, but what really is the harm to me if she sleeps with someone else?





BetrayedDad said:


> Wow... Speechless.
> 
> I'm annoyed if I stub my toe. You are annoyed if your wife sleeps with other men.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

I've been faithful, and as far as I know my wife has too (she may have cheated on me when we were dating, I'm not sure).

Polyamory is absolutely not my thing - I'm not mentally designed to have an intimate relationship with more than one person. My wife is barely interested in one with even one person, certainly not more. I have poly friends and it mostly seems to work out badly. 

I'm not talking about poly. I'm talking about cheating -someone without real long term planning ends op sleeping with someone. I don't see any particular harm to me if it happens - aside from the physical risks which are no worse than I accept in other things anyway.

My wife certainly would not be OK with my cheating - and that's fine. I understand that is the reaction of the great majority of people. I have no interest in cheating - I have a rather strong sense of privacy if nothing else - so that isn't in any way a restriction on me.







SunCMars said:


> Quite an admission. A minority opinion, especially on TAM.
> 
> If I may ask? Have you been faithful in your marriage? Was past polyamory in your marriage a truism, but now is an agreed-upon no-no?
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



SunCMars said:


> Yep, the Truth hurts.....HER TRUTH or Factual Truth.....which can {or not} be the same.


There are no grey areas.

Her friends do not ask her questions to which they might not like the answer.

If one of her female friends asked: "Does my bottom look big in this?" from my wife would garner the response: "No. It makes it look f**king huge! Whatever possessed you to buy that dress?"

However, if they want the unvarnished truth, my wife is their go to person.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

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meson said:


> I should've seen this coming, a rephrasing of the opening post question. I guess you didn't believe our answers. :|
> 
> Why do you post a question online when you know we are all liars?
> The answer to this might answer your OP.



Not everyone that comes here wil lie. Some of us come here to share truths.


If we all have come to the reality that we all lie on some level, is it safe that we expect our partners to be honest and truthful? If we admit that we tell "small lies" on occassion, even sometimes to protect others, do we hold ourselves to a lower standard to be able to do this while in turn holding our partners to a higher standard so that we don't allow it?

These forums are filled with situations, circumstances, and infidelity where some form of deception was the source. It results in entire lives being changed and being ruined. I think that holding expectations is where dissapointment begins. I'm not suggesting lowering standards or lowering expectations, but what seems to be the most help is that we atleast expect that everyone will lie at some point. Even our spouses. I have questioned and interviewed hundreds if not thousands in my career. I pay attention more to body language for the truth than I pay attention to spoken words for the truth because we all just simply lie and over the course of time, some of us do it extremely well.

What may be a "small lie" to some, may be absolutely inexcusable to others. Just as we all commit some types of deception, we all have different levels of understanding, accepting, and judging deceptions and we will all react to them differently. The price of holding others to a higher expection is a price I personally are not willing to pay. I can only hope my spouse doesn't lie, but she's human and therefore I know otherwise.

The very first recorded act of deception was the story about Adam and Eve. If the result was that even they shouldn't have trusted each other so much, are our relationships in trouble because we trust in the same ways? It was only an apple... and Eve said it was ok....


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

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BetrayedDad said:


> You posted this in the coping with infidelity thread so OBVIOUSLY you are inferring one thing.
> 
> Why bother with monogamy? Isn't that the crux of your question? Then we don't have to bother with lying about cheating?
> 
> ...


What do we do when "marriage" becomes a tradition of the past and no longer widely performed?

Marriages between couples are on the decline and divorce is on the rise. In just a generation or two, married couples will be a minority. 

Deception will remain. What can we do for our relationships when the value of marriage declines and deception in all humams remain?

We are going to need to make some kind of progress fast so that we can work against infidelity and so we can pass on relationship skills to our kids.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> We are all aware of the reality that all humans lie. We periodically lie to ourselves, and frequently lie on some level to others.
> 
> So why do you think men and women search high and low for honesty and require "truthful" partners?
> 
> ...


Because intimacy (not sex) requires sharing oneself, not ones fake self.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



NobodySpecial said:


> Because intimacy (not sex) requires sharing oneself, not ones fake self.


Good point. Would you say a relationship that lacks intimacy, also lacks honesty?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> Good point. Would you say a relationship that lacks intimacy, also lacks honesty?


I think lack of honesty drives lack of intimacy in many cases.

DH and I have been going through a rough patch recently. We are back to really happy with each other BECAUSE of honesty, because of fearlessness, because of intimacy.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

I don't think it is important to share everything. Does this dress make my butt look fat? Well I don't have a fat butt, but when I ask similar questions, it would not hurt my feelings if DH would sometimes lie. But would I? If I change into something that makes him genuinely goggle, is that a bad thing? But do I need to know what he is spending his discretionary cash on? No. It is not enough to pay for hookers and blow. So all good.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

We need to separate out types of lies. 

Obviously asking "does this dress make my butt look fat" is a bad idea. If its asked, the wise man will answer something like "you look great". or in an extreme case "You look nice it in, but I really like you in...." 

Lies said honestly for the sake of the person receiving them are different from lies told for the sake of the person telling them. 







NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think it is important to share everything. Does this dress make my butt look fat? Well I don't have a fat butt, but when I ask similar questions, it would not hurt my feelings if DH would sometimes lie. But would I? If I change into something that makes him genuinely goggle, is that a bad thing? But do I need to know what he is spending his discretionary cash on? No. It is not enough to pay for hookers and blow. So all good.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*



Apexmale said:


> What do we do when "marriage" becomes a tradition of the past and no longer widely performed?
> 
> Marriages between couples are on the decline and divorce is on the rise. In just a generation or two, married couples will be a minority.
> 
> ...


What do we do? We will be gone or so old that our opinions will be unwelcome.

Society is changing. Norms are changing. Values are changing.

Will these changes bring prosperity, will they advance our society. Will they strengthen Family unity, Community unity, National unity? I think not.

The third world countries are changing at a different level and in different ways. Weakened, we will be swamped by the hordes...as Europe was by the Mongols.

I see War and Famine in our Future....nothing new. Same old drama.

Get those Planet hopping ships ready and gassed up. We will need them.


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## veganmermaid (Jun 17, 2016)

*Re: Why do we as humans require "honesty" and "truthful" partners?*

As humans, we want partners whose values align with our own. For me, with regard to honesty, that means I want a partner who tells the occasional white lie, but who will be truthful on the larger issues - fidelity, finances, healthcare issues, etc. 

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