# Wife found reminder note of points to talk about.ripped it up. Boundaries. fit test?



## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Hello All!

I've been getting so much help from you all over the past few days. Big Bad Wolf, Conrad, other 'Alpha' members - females - learning!

I'm changing from a door mat to a man.

Last night my wife was going upstairs - yelled / nagged down to me about locking the back door. I stayed calm - told her I always do it before I go to sleep.

She fought - she called me lazy, stupid. She said " what if someone broke in" I told her "I'm right here Crystal." She imasculated me by saying " like you could do anything."

Anyway. she stormed to her room.

I went upstairs - opend her door - remembering the words of big bad wolf. Calm, confident - in control of my emotions.

"Honey - next time come down and speak to me like an adult. "

closed the door gently and left.

I wrote a note for myself of points to bring up with her - as i forget things so quickly. 

-belittled me by treating me like you'd treat a child. nagging, yelling.

-Name calling - lazy, stupid.

-Attacking my manhood and imasculating me by suggesting I'd be defensless if our house was broken into

Under those points I wrote "unacceptable"

SO

She found it - ripped it to peices. didn't say anything - is acting all calm.

What should I do - is her finding it enough?
I'm thinking it's a fitness test - and I'll have to bring it up anyway - make sure I speak to her calmly.

Thoughts?

She always attacks my manhood - telling others I'm not handy - threatening to call her father, making fun of a gate i built 5 years ago. I won't accept that lack of respect anymore - it's to the point where I don't want to do anything - if I do it, and it's not perfect - I'm attacked. if I do it and it is good - there's no recognition.

I am handy. I can wire a house, build amazing pokertables, fix cars etc.

I feel like a beta even typing this - but I'm just learning.

Thanks Everyone of you here. The ones with the questions and the ones with the answers. I have no more mr nice guy and will start reading it tonight.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Her finding it is enough.

If you dig on it, you will appear "needy" as you will be seeking her need acceptance on this.

Stand tall and reflect her behavior back to her.

A great question to ask is, "How is this helpful?" It holds her accountable for what she's trying to accomplish (which isn't very pretty)


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Conrad!

big fan. hahaha.

Anyway - first - what if she confronts me about it? Same thing - cool, Calm? Just say something flatly - I'm new to all this.

Conflict has not been a strong suit.

I guess my thought was "I'll rip it up - see if he's man enough to confront me about it - or to just let it go" But I don't know if that thought even crossed her mind.

"Reflect behavior back to her."

What does this mean exactly? Nag her? Do the same things she was doing to me about a non-issue?

then when she gets mad - ask her "how is this helpful?"

Sorry if I'm needing more clarification.

Thanks for the "feeling needy" pep talk - sounds true. its like I need her to aknowlege she did it.

Thanks!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

When she speaks to you so disrespectfully don't allow her to continue. Tell her I am no longer going to tolerate that kind of talk from you and I don't expect to hear it again. Talk right over her don't wait to hear what she has to say then turn around and walk away She will at first up the ante and get worse before she get the message be consistent. . Tell her when you are ready to talk like a normal person we can discuss it. I may be wrong but I am a fan of disengaging from verbally abusive people. Say what you will not tolerate and if she does not listen, you are justified in acting like she does not exist as a human, she is not acting like a human. Call her on every thing she says. If she badmouths you to people when you are in public get in your car and drive away. She will find her way home and she will be careful next time. 

Don't be fearful of doing this - you cannot live ,like this and if your change of attitude does not bring the same from her, then take you new found skills to a fresh relationship. It is really true that women will treat you the way you allow them so you are totally in control. In all of this you have to decide the deal breaker - are you willing to separate if she does adhere to your behavioral request. You have to be willing to exercise a negative consequence for her which is positive for you. 

I'll tell you about my relationship my husband is a dominate man, calm, does not take any crap from me. I can run my mouth with the best of them but I am never inclined to do that with him ever. Why it his personality - he sates calmly when he does not like what I say or do and then leaves it alone. I respect him because that what he demands. Women feel safer with a man who sets boundaries it a demonstrate of his ability to manage in the world. If he capitulates to me then I would become anxious and maybe start telling him what to do. 

So take heart. Her response to your changes will get worse at first but stay the course, keep posting for support and don't worry about making a mistake, you can always recover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I would ignore the fact that she tore it up and be very cool towards her. She looking for a fight and is baiting you, if you ignore her she will she that she can't get any response by her actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny said:


> Conrad!
> 
> big fan. hahaha.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing.

Respect is the issue. There's no earthly way to characterize her treatment of you as respectful.

You sound like tiptoeing around to keep her from getting upset has been a strategy you've employed. Sadly, that gets you less of (respect) what you really want. She can sense your tiptoes and it's like waving a green light to push further in.

A cool, firm response is required to enforce the boundary. The key thing is that response does not include defense. So, your encounters require a certain amount of wisdom to navigate - at least at first.

If she's asking you a question? Just answer it. Don't assume any sort of ulterior agenda on her part until she starts "pushing it". You'll know that by the internal alarms that start to go off and the temptation to start with the tiptoe soothing routine.

Pay attention to what's happening with your emotions. If you feel yourself getting amped up/defensive, you can always say, "How did this get so big?"

What this does is it reflects back the negative emotion and holds her accountable for initiating conflict. She then has to decide how far she wants to go.

I'm sure she's been very good at pressing your buttons. And, she's been getting the same response for years. You changing the dance will be met with resistance.

Think of it like a soda machine. She's going to press the Coke button and Coke is going to stop coming out. It will take awhile for her to adjust to this, so be patient.

Do not nag. Do not initiate.

You simply want respect for yourself - you won't get it by going on offense.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm going to read more closely later - and really digest - when i can be alone.

But what I'm gathering - is I'm not straightforwardly stating that " my boundary is this - yadda yadda yadda. " but I'm making the statement with action and through situations. 

Letting her put the pieces together for herself so to speak? Seeing - if I do this - I get a bad reaction etc?

OR - does one state. 'Honey - You're belittling me and treating me like a child, which I will not tolerate.'

or something?

Thanks again everyone!

Thanks Catherine.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You've gotten good input.

I will also state that a good deal of this will start to change, once you have come to terms with yourself - as far as how to handle these things.

Remember, boundaries are for you, not her. She has zero input on what your boundaries are, unless of course she's crossing them.

If you know that you are confrontation averse, than you need a different tack. As Catherine suggested, compete disengagement, ignoring her may be more appropriate for you.

Or when she makes an outrageous request or comment, get used to saying "No." And that's it. Give her nothing else. If she wants to throw down, leave - leave the house if necessary.

She WANTS you to try and defend yourself - to continue validating her perception of you as her punching bag. Simply don't ...

Strongly recommend the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" if you don't already have it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny,

While there is no desire to placate, there is also no desire to incite.

I would suggest eliminating the word "you" from the vocabulary as much as possible.

"You are doing this" brings an immediate "Prove it" or "No I'm not"

That gets nowhere quickly.

"I find this line of discussion unacceptable and it won't be tolerated"

Very strong, but depersonalized.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

jonny said:


> Anyway. she stormed to her room.
> 
> I went upstairs - opend her door - remembering the words of big bad wolf. Calm, confident - in control of my emotions.
> 
> ...


Do the two of you have separate bedrooms?

That alone is a real problem.

Don't take crap, but not escalate her distress. Difficult walk if you haven't done that before.

But you can turn it around. Don't indulge in her game. Set boundaries for sure. Enforce them.

No eggshell walk around her.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Whether she ripped up the note or not, those are still issues you need to and will address.

That's the important part.

So she disputes and belittles the importance of those issues by ripping up your list?
Show her it won't work---you'll address the issues whether she rips up the list or not.
Her tactic to distract and invalidate you will not work. 

Confronting her about her immature tactic gives her more power and opportunity to attack you and what's important to you.

She wants you to react to it. 
Don't. Show her that something so immature and disrespectful does not merit a response from you.
And treat other similar immature and disrespectful behaviors the same way---unworthy of a response.

And yes, it is enough that she found it.
She doesn't like that you're standing up for yourself so she's trying to control your efforts to do so.

I'm learning some of these things too, even though in my case I'm a wife who needs to "man up."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Ya'll need Marriage counseling not how to "man up" lessons. My wife hasn't said half of what yours has in our 13yr of marriage.........sounds like the relationship is very unhealthy.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Of course counseling would be great.

But both parties have to be willing. 
Jonny, I absolutely hope your wife would go to counseling with you and think it would help.

In the meantime, I think "manning up" and/or looking for ways to start improving the relationship in other ways is great and can be effective.

Many people here on TAM have turned around their marriages by beginning to make changes in their own behaviors and thinking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> Ya'll need Marriage counseling not how to "man up" lessons. My wife hasn't said half of what yours has in our 13yr of marriage.........sounds like the relationship is very unhealthy.


People tend to spew from their own autobiography.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Will read through more carefully and respond more later when my wife goes to bed.

On the weekends we sleep apart - More something implemented by me so I can do some of the things I want to do - video games, movies she refuses to watch etc.

Even that - I need to work around her, and can only do that stuff when she's sleeping.

Counsilling - We have gone - To a psychologist that's quite good one on one - but like most therapy - favors the female once 2 are involved. The sessions mimic real life - her doing all the talking - everything being my problem. The reason she's like that is that I'm not a man of action etc etc etc.

I found therapy to do more harm than good.

'Manning up', after all the reading i've done here - in other locations - seems to be a very good way of bettering my life, and OUR lives. i'm in this to better my life - as a whole. relationship, family, self.

Thanks - keep posts and opinions coming.

I really really appreciate it.

Oh - things seem to be sinking in.

tonight - " why are you being mean?" " Baby! I'm not being mean in the least! I'm good right now! " 

She went to have a shower - she's been cute / pouty a bit since I'm not paying her the same amount of atention i would.

After the shower - comes to hug me and says " I love you "

I said it back.

She said - are you just saying that? 

"no - I mean it."

There will be a HUGE resistance - I know it. But it has to be done, or this relationship will not last. I can't live "below" my wife for the rest of my life. I deserve respect - so does she.



thanks again.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

If your wife is still willing, I would recommend therapy again, maybe with a different counselor.

In fact if one or both of you have gone to the C individually, you should start fresh with someone new.

I understand the perception that it "favors women," but since you really want to improve your marriage, you have to be open to the process.

I purposely found a male therapist to work with my H and me, so he wouldn't feel like I'm being "favored."
I can honestly say that sometimes the counselor focuses more on me and other times more on my husband.
It depends on what he perceives between us.
Sometimes my ego wants to dispute when he focuses on ME, but I have to remind myself to be humble and look at my own stuff if I want this to work.

I think that sometimes a counselor will actually look first to the partner who's more open or willing to adjust in a given moment, rather than tackling the one posing the challenging behaviors---like your wfe's disrespect of you.

Also---some are simply smarter, fairer, and better than others.

It sounds like you are an openminded and flexible person who really wants improvement with your wife.
Give counseling another chance.
Even if it means letting your wife go through one or two sessions where it seems that she's "favored."
Be patient with that. It may be that the counselor needs to be more gradual and careful with the tougher partner. But if they're good, they'll get to the stuff they need to.
I think our counselor did that with us---I'm the wife, and I definitely did not feel favored, even when I made valid points and my husband was difficult!
I'm starting to understand that the counselor couldn't go after my H's issues in the first few sessions, because he had to establish trust with him first.
If one partner spends the whole session griping about the other one--as your W did to you and my H did to me 2 nights ago-- the counselor may need to take it all in and address it in the next session.
I know your W is in the wrong a lot, but as our C says, "there are always two answers," and I need to own the part I play in the problems, even if I feel justified in my side.

The counselor may also be necessary to call your wife out on her fitness testing and poor treatment of you.
Right now she's not respecting you.
She may need the pov of a third party whose pov she WILL respect, and perhaps only after that person has established a trusting relationship with her and you both.

Hang in there, and do any and everything you can to make things better!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

jonny,

If somebody else is laughing at you, please don't let it bother you. 

As children, we can't run to our mothers all the time when we have problems. Our mothers teach us to solve our problems by ourselves. By stumbling, failing, and standing up, we find ways to win. 

Now as adults, same thing, we can't expect others to help us all the time when we have problems, we can't go to a marriage councilor whenever there is a small problem. We have to find solutions ourselves. By searching, learning, applying, we find solutions. 

Manning up is very important when you are with a demanding wife. This is not a game, this is not teaching you to be rude to her. This is to help you to be manly, to be confident, to be happy. Only when you are happy, your wife will be happy. Since her happiness is based on your happiness. 

She will thank you later that you stay, you stay to solve problems rather that giving up! 

Be confident, be polite, be respectful. Love can be cooked slowly!!!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Greenpearl, with all due respect, I don't think going to a marriage counselor is the same as running to mommy to solve problems. 
I think it shows a lot of maturity to take that serious step to improving problems.
You are very fortunate to have a beautiful partnership with your husband full of mutual respect that you both have figured out on your own.
Some of us need third party help in the area of finding our way to that---the issues jonny describes, the stuff my H and I deal with, arent "small problems" but patterns, and might be better solved with the help of a counselor.
It's not a sign of failure or weakness to get help, but of courage.
I hope my H and I can achieve the kind of marriage that you and Boker have someday!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny,

Stay the course.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jonny said:


> There will be a HUGE resistance - I know it. But it has to be done, or this relationship will not last. I can't live "below" my wife for the rest of my life. I deserve respect - so does she.


 I think you are on the RIGHT path here. Realizing that you should no longer be tolerating your wife's belittling. I am always suggesting books for people, sorry just in my nature, but darn these are good ones - to help someone as yourself that maybe has allowed /enabled her to continue treating you in that fashion for years on end. And need a little encouragment to understand why you MUST stay on this path to enlightenment. 

So high time to turn the tide. She has had a lack of healthy boundaries with you. With your changing, she will be forced to change her reactions to you. All good, all healthy. 

Some great books dealing with these issues :

Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! (9780762415335): Robert A. Glover: Books

Amazon.com: Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No-To Take Control of Your Life (Inspirio/Zondervan Miniature Editions) (9780762421022): Dr. Henry Cloud, Dr. John Townsend: Books

Amazon.com: Boundaries in Marriage (9780310243144): Henry Cloud, John Townsend: Books


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Jonny I find your story rather interesting...

The missus herself has put me through similar trails last year - using friends/church against me, fights/whines/crying/etc, therapists on her side etc etc (I'm surprised you mentioned it actually, I thought I was the only one who had this problem with counselling).

By putting the foot down on boxing day last year - she really woke up, as cruel as my deed was. Since then she's stopped with her social manipulations, but that was just the first step however (and not recommended! as I risked losing her). Dropped the bomb, won the war sure... but now the reparations and negotiations, lest war happens again. Turned out the reasons for her behavior were more complex then I had thought. 

Now I don't know about your missus, but it would do well to learn what's making her act in such a disrespectful controlling manner. And make steps to fix them, does she feel insecure in your marriage? Does she feel loved? Does she feel respected? Appreciated? etc etc.

Manning up is well and good, but there has to be a reason why she's so pissed, that's all I'm saying.


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## sweetpea (Jan 30, 2007)

Please stay on topic. 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...117-posting-guidelines-please-read-first.html


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

jonny said:


> Counsilling - We have gone - To a psychologist that's quite good one on one - but like most therapy - favors the female once 2 are involved. The sessions mimic real life - her doing all the talking - everything being my problem. The reason she's like that is that I'm not a man of action etc etc etc.
> 
> I found therapy to do more harm than good.


You may need to find a better counselor if all that occurs there is more nagging with a witness and a per hour fee.

A good counselor will set guidelines for interaction at the sessions and attempt to help you fix your communications with input from both of you.

Professional, constructive counseling by a trained counselor will not be harmful.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

michzz said:


> You may need to find a better counselor if all that occurs there is more nagging with a witness and a per hour fee.


:iagree:

The problem with counseling is that you need to find one that is right for YOU. I have had a number of therapists for my addiction issues. One was FANTASTIC. He gave me just the information I needed, the support... A bunch of the other ones were horrible FOR ME. 

Also you do have to watch out for the people who aren't really there for anything other than their money. Buyer beware.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I agree.

It's also true that some of the approaches used in individual counseling simply aren't as helpful when working with couples.
Some counselors specialize in working with couples, and with particular approaches.
Example---Ours is an imago therapist, which is specifically geared to couples, not individuals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Sounds like your wife is insecure and has a need to control. The control makes her feel less insecure and that she controls her destiny, when in fact her behavior is actually pushing you away, not drawing you to her. I know how this feels. It's a horrible feeling and it takes really getting to know yourself, why you are the way you are, what needs to change to make yourself happy and why you feel the need to tear down others to make yourself feel better. She really needs counselling whether she agrees or not.

As far as the note, I agree with the others who've posted here, it was unacceptable behavior and it was like she was throwing it in your face and "daring" you to do something about it.

I would let her know that tearing up your note was unacceptable and that it she wishes to behave as a child, she will be treated like one. 

Its about boundaries (and yes I know, I suck at them), but I'm trying. She needs to understand that there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. She is so used to getting away with the unacceptable behavior with you that its become routine and probably something she doesn't even really think about, just acts upon when SHE believes the situation warrants it.

I'm not a true believer and supporter of the "man-up" clause that keeps getting spread throughout TAM. I am of the belief that it has nothing to do with manning up or womaning up (I know, not a word), it has to do with self-respect, confidence and setting boundaries regardless of whether you are a man or a woman. I think the "man-up" clause (and I'm probably going to be ripped here, but so what), is a step back to the neanderthal days when caveman dragged their women around by their hair. Mutual respect and clear setting of boundaries and not moving them to accomodate the situation is where real progress is made. If not for your wife, then for yourself. She will either woman-up and learn to respect you as her husband, not just necessarily a man, and meet you halfway or she won't - her choice.

Beating on your chest, showing your chest hair and wielding the "man-up" clause club is not necessary and can backfire depending on how extreme you take it.

Just MHO, but I agree with a previous poster - marriage counselling is definitely warranted in your situation too.

Good luck!


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks again all for the responses - Sorry I never got back to you all. It's been a big change for me, and one I'm still struggling with. I'll post another topic as I think what I want to ask might be a common thought. I'll search first.

I never did mention the note. 

The treating me like a child has not been a big thing as of late. Saying that - she's pretty withdrawn all together now - It's like since I stood up for myself a couple times - she doesn't know what to do. 

There was an argument. ( In which I was calm) about a male friend of hers - recent friend really - Had the chance of going to an emotional affair - blah blah blah. 

Anyway - I was calm the entire time - she was mad. I told her I have no worries about the guy, the person I'm worries about is you. Your current mental state and the research that shows that you could be headed the wrong direction. 

She got pissed. Walked away.

I went upstairs - told her. ;I'm not accusing you of anything. She said I am. I said no - not at all - I'm just communicating a worry of mine with this friendship of hers.

ANyway - more to come. Thanks again. 

CONRAD

I'm trying to stay the course - it's tough. 

I email her or text her - and I want her to respond - I'm trying to change that to " she responds or she doesn't - it's her choice and it doesn't affect me. " 

things like that . . .

Thanks.

women.  ( puts flame suit on. )


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Stop following her if she walks away. Stop re-engaging her if she disengages. She expects you to pursue her, so don't.

If anything, YOU should start walking away the moment she raises her voice in a conversation. "We'll discuss it when you can do so calmly."

My guess is that it is difficult for you to disengage yourself from her. You want to talk. You want answers. You want resolution and calm. So you pursue it, no matter what crap she pulls.

Needs to stop.

Your comment about "she doesn't know what to do" is right in line with how this works. She will test you, without a doubt.

I've outlined previously, in my case we shifted from my spouse feeling like she had complete control and absolute predictability in terms of how I would respond to her, to being utterly confused and as a result, fearful, in less than 24 hours. 

I'm not encouraging you to induce fear in your partner. It's counter-productive to re-establishing a healthy dynamic.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Stop following her if she walks away. Stop re-engaging her if she disengages. She expects you to pursue her, so don't.
> 
> If anything, YOU should start walking away the moment she raises her voice in a conversation. "We'll discuss it when you can do so calmly."
> 
> ...


Deejo - Your posts all across this board have been helpful - You're well spoken and organized with what you say. You, The wolf man, Conrad and of course others have been helping.

Though all talk no action till I implement these 'teachings'

I look forward to reading more from you man.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Jonny,

Your woman, she is used to the established cause and effect, that she instigates a reaction from you with this or that action.

First things first, take this power away from her.

And do this with actions mostly, minimal words.

Deejo is correct, do not "follow" your woman!

You seem to be reading already on this site, so these tings you maybe already know. 



Conflict: embrace it, use humor when appropriate, use calm, direct communication when appropriate. Rule of thumb, put YOURself and YOUR interests and YOUR desires front and center. 

This may be hard at first, but get skilled and ignoring any hoops your woman puts for you to jump through.

Then get skilled at putting your own hoops for her to jump through.

This, will change things dramatically.


FItness tests: "Sh!t test". Google them, read several hours of many websites, dating websites, marriage websites, get beyond just "planned responses" and really understand the root of them.


Hypergamy: Similar to fitness test, understand this concept to see the power of attraction of the counterintuitive notion of putting YOURself first, and how actions and behaviors in this way can transform insecurity, resentment, and angst, into contentment, respect, and blazing sexual attraction and emotional connection.


As well, feel free to PM me and perhaps we can discuss personally even more controversial yet often extremely effective tactics.

I wish you well.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

it's like she's testing me with this 'other man' as well. This friend of hers that I've had a hard time with from the start.

But I'll admit, to myself, that it probably stems for insecurity or me not being confident enough. More so confident in our relationship.

Today when I got home - she was talking on the phone with him. I tried to act fine - lost 'it' a couple times - not in a major way - but probably in a noticable way - A slammed down knife when she was in the other room maybe. A raised voice with my 3.5 year old son.

Anyway - It feels like it's a test for me. So I try to act cool. later she questioned, " You going to get grumpy everytime I talk to Bob?" - I played it off - I'm not grumpy.

Who knows. 

Thanks for the responses.

WOLF - I may just take you up on your PM offer. I'll try and get my thoughts organized - see if I can muster up forward momentum again.

Maybe it's me being in the house all the time with her - Should I just leave somewhere tonight? Go anywhere - just away from her?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

jonny said:


> it's like she's testing me with this 'other man' as well. This friend of hers that I've had a hard time with from the start.
> 
> But I'll admit, to myself, that it probably stems for insecurity or me not being confident enough. More so confident in our relationship.
> 
> ...


That will make her panic. It does help in one way, she needs to wake up anyway! 

It is important for you to show your wife you are jealous of the men whoever she talks to happily. It shows that you care about her and women love that feeling. If she loves you, she is happy to know that you are jealous of those men and it makes her feel attractive. It can also be a tool for her to use to pi$$ you off when she is upset with you! 

My husband doesn't allow me to talk to men privately!


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> That will make her panic. It does help in one way, she needs to wake up anyway!
> 
> It is important for you to show your wife you are jealous of the men whoever she talks to happily. It shows that you care about her and women love that feeling. If she loves you, she is happy to know that you are jealous of those men and it makes her feel attractive. It can also be a tool for her to use to pi$$ you off when she is upset with you!
> 
> My husband doesn't allow me to talk to men privately!


They are just friend. I don't have much of a worry about him - I've befriended him. At first it was a " Keep your friends close, your enemies closer" type thing.

I still think it is to a point - but we have a lot in common and get a long. 

The wife has been very protective of this and has said " he was my friend first." etc.

So mostly - I think it's me overreacting - but still unsure. 

SO - JEALOUSY

Doesn't this go against the control of emotions thing? The calm, cool, confident.

From that I would gather - I can't control what my wife does, she's talking to a guy whom I have no proof it's anything but friends - so I need to act as if I don't care, act as if it doesn't affect me.

Even if it does.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

If she's using as a tool, then no, it wouldn't serve your purposes to behave like you're jealous.
The cooler and calmer, the better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

jonny said:


> They are just friend. I don't have much of a worry about him - I've befriended him. At first it was a " Keep your friends close, your enemies closer" type thing.
> 
> I still think it is to a point - but we have a lot in common and get a long.
> 
> ...


We are jealous doesn't mean we are not confident or we are controlling.. 

Sometimes we just have to set happy boundaries. Things do happen if we are not cautious! 

I am confident about my husband's love, but I warn him not to joke with his female co-workers too much. Sometimes we may not have any intention, we just want to have happy conversation, but others may not think like this, they might think you might like them in a romantic way, then they become bold in seducing you, then you lose control of yourself, then you lose yourself, cases like this happen a lot. Some women are deeply hurt because they let their female friend close to their husbands. 

In this area, we have to be selfish, love is selfish! She can talk to her male friend when you are around; when you are not around, no, I don't suggest her spending time with him or anything. She may not like this, but you have to tell her your reason. 

I talk to men on forums, what I am doing is honorable, my husband doesn't mind it if it is out in the open, but my husband told me not to talk to men through private messages, even though sometimes it is for advice and help, he doesn't think it is appropriate. I don't mind it, it is protecting our relationship in a cautious way. Preventing problems from happening is better than dealing with them! 

So I only talk to men privately when I have to(seldom happens), and I usually tell my husband who I talk to and what I had to say!


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## Hot Alpha Female (Jan 6, 2011)

Hi Jonny,

Good on you for attempting to set some boundaries. It may be a bit difficult at the moment, because your wife is adjusting to this new found boundary that you are cultivating.

When a woman finds that she can push a man around, order him to do certain things, then ultimately she loses trust in his ability to protect her emotionally and physically.

It takes a while to regain this trust. Therefore you might see your wife, acting up more than usual as you are setting these new boundaries.

In terms of her emotional outbursts usually these are a subconscious test to see how of a reaction she can get from you. Women are provokers of emotions. There are two things you need to focus on.

First imagine yourself like a solid rock and your wife like the tumbling and crashing waves around you. If you can be therefore her, through whatever emotion she is experiencing, and focus on being strong, present, accepting and non judgmental (also not taking her emotional storms personally) then soon she will start to rebuild that trust and respect for you.

Second, you must cultivate and develop your own masculinity. See if you can engage in activities where you can really "take charge", assert yourself and lead. Maybe take up a sport or pursue a passion of yours ... whatever it is, find it and start developing it. As this will give you the strength to assert yourself with your wife, and also empathize with her, in times of need.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Hot Alpha Female said:


> Hi Jonny,
> 
> Good on you for attempting to set some boundaries. It may be a bit difficult at the moment, because your wife is adjusting to this new found boundary that you are cultivating.
> 
> ...


Hot,

You are amazing!


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

I've decided tonight I need to say something about it if she's on the phone with him again. .

Something about her talking to this guy after, on Sunday, I told her I didn't think they had to communicate so much. She sees him at work everyday, texts him, and now talks on the phone to him? I told her I'm not worried about him - I'm worried about her.

Again - maybe I'm over-reacting.

But tonight, if she's talking on the phone to him when I get home again - 3rd day in a row after our 'talk' - I don't know what to do. I'm probably going to copy and paste this to my other topic I have going as well. 

She is showing she doesn't care about my feelings surrounding the issue. She is disrespecting me. It's like I want to tell her to cool it. cool it with this guy, and if she can't, that should be a red flag and she needs to think about that. If she can't respect me at the same time as having this 'friendship' - then we have a problem. 

It's like I want to say that - but am I in the right or am I justified in doing so?

I know at the top I said I need to say something if she's on the phone with him again. Maybe I should say something regardless.

This morning when I was with the dog. she said " Oh - you like the dog because she's the only one that listens to you in the house." I forget what I responded - something like " you're right." 

Oy.

Thanks for the post above. Being the solid Rock. Her the waves tumbling, faltering around it.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

If you tell her not to talk to this man, and she does it again, she is doing it on purpose. I think she knows clearly that you are bothered, she is making you jealous of this man, she is hurting you on purpose. She is letting you know: Hey, I have other men who are interested in me! 

She shows little respect towards you, it is painful living with a woman like this! I don't know what she is trying to accomplish here by acting this way. ( the dog issue)

I am sure deeply in her heart she wants your love, but she is using the wrong way to try to get it! 

But if no one wants to give in first, the misery has no end...........................

Some people want their life to be full of roses, in the end, they only get thorns. They think by mocking and controlling can make them superior to others.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

greenpearl said:


> If you tell her not to talk to this man, and she does it again, she is doing it on purpose. I think she knows clearly that you are bothered, she is making you jealous of this man, she is hurting you on purpose. She is letting you know: Hey, I have other men who are interested in me!
> 
> She shows little respect towards you, it is painful living with a woman like this! I don't know what she is trying to accomplish here by acting this way. ( the dog issue)
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the words in this thread and the other. Nice to have women here who are closer to 'center' than mine. lol

Seriously - the comments and posts are appreciated.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

jonny said:


> Thanks for all the words in this thread and the other. Nice to have women here who are closer to 'center' than mine. lol
> 
> Seriously - the comments and posts are appreciated.


All the above posts are completely correct. Not much else to say. She is just rebelling like a child who suddenly (after 3 years) has been told no. It will get worse before it gets better. All about who has the longest breath.

Well, if what she does bothers you, find a way to vent. Sports (especially cardio) help for me to focus my mind. Gaming helps me let it all out and if I want to have peace in my mind, I draw/paint.

Find stuff that does this for you, so you can be calm enough when she is pushing your buttons.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny said:


> They are just friend. I don't have much of a worry about him - I've befriended him. At first it was a " Keep your friends close, your enemies closer" type thing.
> 
> I still think it is to a point - but we have a lot in common and get a long.
> 
> ...


jonny,

A "calm cool doormat" won't get the job done.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Conrad said:


> jonny,
> 
> A "calm cool doormat" won't get the job done.





Conrad said:


> jonny,
> 
> Stay the course.


Lots of to the point responses - that really make an impact.

Thanks. I'll pick this up in the other thread about what happened last night and this morning. 

Summary - I'm feeling more empowered.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

I think you need to bump back a little more. Being calm and taking it on the chin shows that you're in control of yourself and can show restraint but it doesn't stir the pot enough. 

Respond to some of her comments with a smartass one-liner of your own. You want it to be something slightly insulting said with a smirk. Walk away sometimes without even giving her a chance to muster a comment. This way you're not letting her "win" the game while also throwing in an extra bit of energy to the mix. The point of it is to be a bit of a lovetap counterpunch that's playful enough to not be disrespectful yet firm enough that it says "Don't f*ck with me."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

I signed up for this forum cause I felt compelled to respond to you.. I really feel for you. I might sound like a bit of a jerk with what I'm about to say but think of it like a best bud that's smacking you in the face cause he cares for you. I wouldn't waste my time of day signing up if I didn't. 

I'm going to be harsh but I know your marriage is OVER if you don't snap into reality and giving you a frilly feel good post will do nothing for you. 

So lets be blunt. You are the core problem in your relationship right now. You maybe be resentful and upset and blame her for whats going on but the way you are acting is the core issue here. 

You don't care about yourself nor do you respect yourself. You consider yourself to be of lower value than her. You might think you do, but you certainly don't if you let another human being treat you like this. This is YOUR feeling about yourself, and she has picked up on that and now its reflected in her feeling. 

Think about this really carefully. You live with yourself every day, you talk to yourself, you walk in your skin... this is it buddy. This is all you got. If you, who live with yourself, don't respect yourself then why should she? Do you really think that having the title of wife somehow changes human nature? That by putting a ring on her finger, human nature and biology are somehow averted and she should owe you some undying respect? It doesn't work that way. If anyone, wife/boss/friend/parent/brother choose not to respect me, they lose the privilege of me in their life. Its not idle words, I demonstrate it by my actions. 

You can set all the boundaries you want, but it all hinges on one thing. Your willingness to leave. You have to know where your break point is and more importantly so does your wife. My wife would never get away with an insult without being called on it. Its not about being hyper sensitive, but I respect myself and won't stand for insults. 

If your willingness to leave doesn't exist, then the boundaries won't. You can huff and puff all day long setting boundaries, but if she knows in her heart that you're a little sucker that'll keep taking all her crap, she won't give one rip about you. 

Seriously. Ask yourself, why should she respect you when you don't respect yourself enough to stand up to her when she insults you? Why should she give you her trust and respect to raise her kids if you're not even man enough to stand up to her? 

Straight up, are you a man worthy of respect? Do you keep yourself in relatively good health? Do you step up to the plate and lead? Do you make decisions quickly or do you hum and haw over silly things? 

Are you angry now? good, be angry at yourself, get yourself together and stop taking her crap. Don't burst at her, don't be angry at her, cause I'm telling you there is a high chance you could turn things around if you get yourself together, but know where you stand and know where you dig your feet in the ground. If she doesn't respect you after that, then its her problem, and its time to move on. 

I've been harsh but I think realistic here.... to comment on what you said about the other man, here is my take on it. 

Based on what you're saying here, I'd say shes headed towards the direction of an emotional and/or physical affair. Both can be equally destructive. There is zero reason to believe anything otherwise. You trying to give her the benefit of the doubt? You're going to give benefit of the doubt to someone that treats you like crap on a daily basis? Snap into reality here. Passive approaches to this situation will just give her the space to continue doing what shes doing. Passive approaches is what GOT YOU HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. 

In addition to that, a passive approach will simply tell her once again that it is ok to walk on you, that you have no boundaries and that its acceptable to treat you this way. 

I don't know what your personal boundaries are, but with my wife, its simple, no private conversations with other males. Out with a group of friends (mixed genders), online in a public forum, not a problem... but a private telephone conversation with a guy she works with 3 days in a row? No way in heck. We'd be having a very serious discussion that would involve the word divorce if she didn't immediately stop. 

You know what I said to my wife when this first came up about talking to guys in private? "I might be unreasonable, I might be wrong, but this is what I feel is right and if it ultimately means I lose you, then so be it. Regardless, I've got to do what I believe is right for our marriage. So no more private conversations or text messages with another man, no lunch dates alone with another man etc etc." 

Its simple. I feel its wrong. I feel it will damage the marriage long term. She is then given a choice, if she feels what I'm doing is wrong, she has the option of leaving or staying. If she leaves, I would be sad at first but in the end I would know that we'd both be happier. She can go get the male attention she was craving that I couldn't fulfill and I can go find a woman who is happy with me and doesn't need other males to fulfill her needs. 

I could go on and on. I may have written too much as is. You can feel free to private message me if you want some more specific advice on certain situations you're dealing with. I'm not the god of marriage. I've had my share of problems but hopefully I can help you along the way with the things I've learned.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

coop-it makes sense to me but I'm not being cuckold by my wife


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

the guy said:


> coop-it makes sense to me but I'm not being cuckold by my wife


Isn't this Jonny's thread? or are you the same person? 

If you are Jonny, please note I said "I'd say shes headed towards the direction of an emotional and/or physical affair."

I was struggling a great deal with my wife for years, but once I changed my mindset everything started falling into place. We went from "lucky to have sex once a month" to sometimes twice in a day. From 6 months without sex and me asking all the time, getting denied and feeling like crap about myself, to her initiating sex more than half the time. More sex in say the past 3 months than in the first 5 years of being together. 

I had to unlearn all the PC crap that is fed down our throats by TV, movies, teachers, etc etc and start facing reality. We are biological creatures, and not nearly as evolved as we like to pretend we are. We're all subject to our human biology, instead of denying that, I started to embrace it. It's night and day to how things used to be with my wife. 

Its why I felt compelled to sign up and respond to you yesterday. I see a guy going through a rough spot and wanted to see if I could help out. 

I wouldn't blame you for not liking what I said, I said things rather bluntly. That said, regardless of everything I said, I'm pleading with you, don't assume your wife isn't going down that path towards an emotional/physical affair. 

Try and swap your thinking around to a biological level and forget all the social constructs like "marriage" and "Wife". Thats all high level logical thinking but it isn't what drives us to do what we do. The best way I could explain it, will probably piss off some people but whatever... 

Men are more visually stimulated. See hot chick, get turned on, bam. 

Women are more emotionally stimulated. See emotional/physical Strength, power and status, get turned on and bam! 

Think about everything you're feeling about your wife, your chasing her around the house with arguments, etc etc.... and ask yourself, would you honestly be doing the same things if she was 400 lbs and completely unappealing to you on a sexual level? I highly doubt it. You'd probably be resentful and look at her with disdain. You'd be stuck in a marriage contract with someone you have zero sexual interest for and on some levels you'd feel robbed of the opportunity to find someone that would be appealing to you. 

Sound familier? Cause right now, you're the equivalent of the 400 lbs wife to her. Only difference is, her attraction is on more of an emotional level and you're delivering that completely unattractive mate. She probably feels trapped because of the social contract and biologically robbed of being with a stronger mate. 

So please, please, please don't just assume your wife isn't headed directly where she is headed if you don't whip yourself together quick. How long could you look at a 400 lbs woman you're socially bound to and resist the temptation of a hot fit woman at work that keeps texting and calling you? Cause for her, that's the same thing with Bob right now. 

You might not break for years, but eventually, the dam will break and you'll give in to the temptation.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

coops said:


> I signed up for this forum cause I felt compelled to respond to you.. I really feel for you. I might sound like a bit of a jerk with what I'm about to say but think of it like a best bud that's smacking you in the face cause he cares for you. I wouldn't waste my time of day signing up if I didn't.
> 
> I'm going to be harsh but I know your marriage is OVER if you don't snap into reality and giving you a frilly feel good post will do nothing for you.
> 
> ...


Coops

Thanks for the long response. No - Blunt and forward and 'Harsh' are all good. I'll read it again if I have time this afternoon! At least try and read it again tonight. Many of the things you said ring true, and represent what I'm working towards.

Thanks.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

coops said:


> Isn't this Jonny's thread? or are you the same person?
> 
> If you are Jonny, please note I said "I'd say shes headed towards the direction of an emotional and/or physical affair."
> 
> ...


I'm quoting this in its entirety for a reason.

It's good.

No - that wasn't me. If I had 2 user names on a forum not only do I have relationship problems, Self respect problems - but I also have some deeper mental issues to deal with as well!

Anyway - a couple things.

The comparison to a 400 lb woman. I like that.

2 - What did you do to change yourself. What happened? What was the snapping point? Did you read any books? Get your info from any specific sources that could be helpful to me / others on this site?

It's nice to have success stories here, and individuals who are living all this talk, and living it consistently.

Tell us / me more???

Thanks!


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