# Victim-hood Feminism



## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Much discussion lately about Hollywood producers and young female actors. In an interview, Pamela Anderson talks about her experiences with knowing when something isn't right and establishing boundaries. WATCH: Pam Anderson Slams 'Victimhood Feminism,' Says Weinstein Victims Knew What They're 'Getting Into' | Daily Wire 

I don't have much sympathy for these young "would-be starlets" willing to do anything for fame and fortune. It's funny how most people wouldn't care about anything they have to say until they have won an oscar and are millionaires. But what about the ones who you've never heard of? Does the press even give them the time of day?

If you were a young actress starting out in Hollywood and a certain producer could cast you, as long as you "played ball", would it be worth it for a chance to become a rich, powerful person? And does complaining about it many years later diminish the achievements that women/feminists have made in the last 50 yrs?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> I don't have much sympathy for these young "would-be starlets" willing to do anything for fame and fortune.


Most of them were forced to make a choice, go alone with what the guy says or give up their career and a life long dream.

Watch this --

https://youtu.be/Xz-PtXcp7T4?t=112


If you can watch that and you still feel this way like this is some kind of feminist agenda, then you just don't get it.

As far as Pamala Anderson, consider the source.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

majdeath doesn't have sympathy for chicks who've been raped or assaulted

thanks for sharing


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is all the difference in the world between a woman who voluntarily uses sex to get ahead in the world and a woman who is forced to have sex in order to keep her job. 

BTW - neither is good. In the first case the woman is at fault for creating an improper atmosphere in the workplace. In the second the man is guilty of harassment / assault / rape depending on the details.


This is not new. Back in the the late 50s my mother was an opera singer. She had moved into a smaller professional opera company but was told in no uncertain terms that to get into the Met, she would have to have sex with the conductor. Ended her singing career. 

Even if other singers did have sex with him "voluntarily" it creates a biased workplace with serious harassment.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

toblerone said:


> majdeath doesn't have sympathy for chicks who've been raped or assaulted
> 
> thanks for sharing


I don't have sympathy for benighted people. As for victims of rape/SA, I live with one.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

sokillme said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have much sympathy for these young "would-be starlets" willing to do anything for fame and fortune.
> ...


"Forced to make a choice" - what is that exactly? Pam Anderson mentioned a 3rd option - just walk away. You may not get the role but at least you won't get "rolled".


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> "Forced to make a choice" - what is that exactly? Pam Anderson mentioned a 3rd option - just walk away. You may not get the role but at least you won't get "rolled".


What these guys like Weinstein did was actively tarnish their reputation when they said no. Things like "difficult to work with" gets floated around. So it's not a simple matter of just saying no.

Psychologically speaking, even if these women did want to act as if they're down for it, I don't think that would help them. From what I've read these guys like Weinstein, O'Reilly, Moore and Conyers weren't looking for relationships or even adoration, it sounds to me as if they were getting off on making someone do something that they did not want to do rather than looking for sexual gratification.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

toblerone said:


> majdeath doesn't have sympathy for chicks who've been raped or assaulted
> 
> thanks for sharing


MODERATION MESSAGE:-

I just read his post and he did not say what you claim he said.

Please be aware of the posting rules at TAM.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

FTR, let's also remember that Pamela Anderson is a buddy of Julian Assange.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Imagine you were at a company and through the grapevine learned that if you wanted to get promoted, you had to have sex with your male boss. 

No threats, but just everyone knew that was the only way up the ladder. Picture that its an otherwise good company and moving up was your career goal. 




MAJDEATH said:


> "Forced to make a choice" - what is that exactly? Pam Anderson mentioned a 3rd option - just walk away. You may not get the role but at least you won't get "rolled".


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I hate to jump in when the warnings are already being issued. 
The woman who offers sex to get ahead creates an improper workplace environment.
The man who asks for sex in exchange for advancement is guilty of harassment.
Are you sure that the woman who offers sex in exchange for advancement isn't asking for sex, and therefore also guilty of harassment? Once the subject has been breached there is an implied threat of exposure. That threat was not there until someone opened that door. Sexual favors have nothing to do with job performance. Most employers do everything in their power to keep sex out of the work place. But, but , but, who is to say who hinted first? Who will be believed?

And one other thing. The guy (or non gender specific person in power) who accepts an offer of sex, or any other bribe, in exchange for unearned preference in advancement. What is that person guilty of?
Corruption


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think its harassment if someone asks for sex in a situation where a reasonable person would conclude that they will provide some sort of work related benefit in return for sex. (like a promotion, etc). 

Not all sexual relationships at work constitute harassment, even when there is a power imbalance, but a power imbalance means the people need to be exceptionally careful to avoid harassment. 





Mr. Nail said:


> I hate to jump in when the warnings are already being issued.
> The woman who offers sex to get ahead creates an improper workplace environment.
> The man who asks for sex in exchange for advancement is guilty of harassment.
> Are you sure that the woman who offers sex in exchange for advancement isn't asking for sex, and therefore also guilty of harassment? Once the subject has been breached there is an implied threat of exposure. That threat was not there until someone opened that door. Sexual favors have nothing to do with job performance. Most employers do everything in their power to keep sex out of the work place. But, but , but, who is to say who hinted first? Who will be believed?
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> "Forced to make a choice" - what is that exactly? Pam Anderson mentioned a 3rd option - just walk away. You may not get the role but at least you won't get "rolled".


There is this crazy notion that people should not have to play sex games with twisted power brokers to achieve their career. That one SHOULD be able to pursue the career without being preyed upon by asshats. Crazy. I know.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

When I was working for big pharma, we were told in a sexual harassment seminar that, for example, co-workers in a dept are victims of sexual harassment when the boss is having an affair with one of his/ her employees. That's because naturally, the boss is more likely to give the better projects and other perks to the one they are sleeping with.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Most companies insist that if a relationship develops, people need to be moved so that no one is in a relationship with a direct report. 




NextTimeAround said:


> When I was working for big pharma, we were told in a sexual harassment seminar that, for example, co-workers in a dept are victims of sexual harassment when the boss is having an affair with one of his/ her employees. That's because naturally, the boss is more likely to give the better projects and other perks to the one they are sleeping with.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

uhtred said:


> Most companies insist that if a relationship develops, people need to be moved so that no one is in a relationship with a direct report.


I don't doubt that. But it may take time to identify that inappropriate relationship is going on in the first place.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> There is this crazy notion that people should not have to play sex games with twisted power brokers to achieve their career. That one SHOULD be able to pursue the career without being preyed upon by asshats. Crazy. I know.


Maybe in a regular, everyday occupation. But Hollywood is different. If you want fame and a multi-million dollar fortune, you might just make it on hard work alone. But you may have to sacrifice something in the early years to get there. Do the ends justify the means? Pamela admitted that she made mistakes early on, until she established her boundaries. And it may have cost her some roles but she has no regrets.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

What I don't get, several posters here have dismissed Pamela Andersen (i.e. consider the source), why exactly? Here is someone who was the epitome of a sex symbol in Hollywood for some time. As she mentioned, she has dealt with rape/sexual assault. Also, I am sure she has been the target of those in the industry who were willing to further her career based on "special favors". Seems like she would have a lot more insight into this then most, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss her opinion just b/c it doesn't agree with yours.

In terms of what she said, I have to agree with @MAJDEATH . No one is saying there is any sort of excuse for rape/assault. However, you do have to take some responsibility for your decisions that put you in a precarious position. If you know there is an area in your town that has a high crime rate, an area where you should not walk around alone at night, yet you decide to do so and get assaulted. There is no way to justify the person for assaulting you, yet your actions put you in harms way. That is all Pamela A is saying. If you know a producer is a sexual predator, you don't go to his hotel room by yourself. If you decide that your career is more important than your personal safety, that is your decision, but it doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

This crap has been going on in Hollywood since the industry started. Even a young Judy Garland was molested when auditioning for the Wizard of Oz. It's about time these pricks learn to keep their hands to themselves I hope their asses land in jail. Pigs - they're just pigs.

Well, I feel better now.:soapbox:


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

In Hollywood, how many women are willing to sleep around to get ahead? I really don't know, but to say its zero is blatantly false. There is partial blame on that subset of women. If some are willing, it helps create an environment that allows these creeps a process for it. And probably makes a lot of it more consensual than is currently be portrayed. Any non-consensual stuff is sick. It is also wrong to come back 20 years later and 'remember' being coerced, when in fact, at the time it was consensual, scratch your back I scratch yours.


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## marriageontherocks2 (Oct 4, 2017)

The Harvey Weinstein case is a clear abuse of power and he's putting women into a position of "have sex with me, or watch me beat off, or let me rape you" or they lose their career. That's breaking a ton of criminal and workplace laws and isn't defensible at all.

Then there are the more subtle cases of women flirting, using their sex appeal to get ahead when it suits them, a man acting on their flirting and a decade later having his career ruined because she now claims to be a victim.

The former is 100% on the man, the latter is a grey area and probably 50/50, both of them know what's happening, both are adults with full agency. For the woman in the latter scenario to claim victim-hood a decade later is a joke.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> This crap has been going on in Hollywood since the industry started. Even a young Judy Garland was molested when auditioning for the Wizard of Oz. It's about time these pricks learn to keep their hands to themselves I hope their asses land in jail. Pigs - they're just pigs.
> 
> Well, I feel better now.:soapbox:


Hey Blondie. I would bet just about everyone here agrees with you. There should be ZERO tolerance for molestation/rape/assault, whether it be in Hollywood or really anywhere else, whether it be a male or female committing the act. The other side though of the discussion however are those who consent to an act b/c they felt they needed to for their career, etc... Those who had a choice, made the "wrong" choice, and then try to lay themselves as complete victims. Once again, there is never justification for putting hands on someone without their consent.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, and its tricky. Does a drunken one night stand with the boss on a business trip count as a "relationship". What about a long term emotional affair? Even a close non-sexual friendship can result in favoritism. 

Harassment though I think is when a reasonable person would expect that providing sexual favors would result in significant job benefits. 




NextTimeAround said:


> I don't doubt that. But it may take time to identify that inappropriate relationship is going on in the first place.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

uhtred said:


> Yes, and its tricky. Does a drunken one night stand with the boss on a business trip count as a "relationship". What about a long term emotional affair? Even a close non-sexual friendship can result in favoritism.
> 
> Harassment though I think is when a reasonable person would expect that providing sexual favors would result in significant job benefits.


It would be interesting to get an opinion from an HR or legal professional who has had to deal with these issues.

I suppose it could be a long road for someone in the department to prove that the boss's paramour did not deserve the favoritism that they got.

But at the same time, some employers have rules that intimate relationship between employees at any level is not allowed. So just on that rule alone, all you would need to do is prove that an inappropriate relationship is in motion.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Things tend to get muddy when it comes to the Celebrity industry because it is very different than any other industry. The entire industry is predicated on objectification in that the product being sold is the crafted image of the person themself. The product is the person.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't understand what this has to do with feminism.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Check out who made the Cover of Time person of the year.

Some brave people.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

The Silence Breakers.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> I don't understand what this has to do with feminism.


At least per the article Maj posted, Andersen believes the current wave of feminism has led to this "victim at all costs" mentality.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> At least per the article Maj posted, Andersen believes the current wave of feminism has led to this "victim at all costs" mentality.


Pam needs to stay relevant and Assange apparently is not getting her the attention she was hoping for.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

sandcastle said:


> Pam needs to stay relevant and Assange apparently is not getting her the attention she was hoping for.


So does that negate her opinion? I am not a pro and anti Pam person, but it does seem like a topic she would have a decent amount of insight in to. Now, if she was in an article about taxes, then I would more quickly disregard lol


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> I don't understand what this has to do with feminism.


This is true. Men have come forward to tell about abusive situations visited upon them as well.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is true. Men have come forward to tell about abusive situations visited upon them as well.


Terry Crews got his crank nearly yanked off by Adam Venit and is filing charges. He didn't place himself in a position to be molested by a coked up agent, yet it still happened. That's not the fault of feminism, flirting, millennials, or anything else that seems to be in vogue to blame everything on. That is the fault of a coked up agent looking to cop a feel, same as Weinstein.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> Maybe in a regular, everyday occupation. But Hollywood is different. If you want fame and a multi-million dollar fortune, you might just make it on hard work alone. But you may have to sacrifice something in the early years to get there. Do the ends justify the means? Pamela admitted that she made mistakes early on, until she established her boundaries. And it may have cost her some roles but she has no regrets.


Why? Because it has always been so? Viva la power broker establishment?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

uhtred said:


> There is all the difference in the world between a woman who voluntarily uses sex to get ahead in the world and a woman who is forced to have sex in order to keep her job.
> 
> BTW - neither is good. In the first case the woman is at fault for creating an improper atmosphere in the workplace. In the second the man is guilty of harassment / assault / rape depending on the details.
> 
> ...


Interesting.... happened to my mother too.

She did have a contract singing at the Met in the 1940's. The guy who controlled her contract was sexually harassing her. He told her that if she did not have sex with him he would cancel her contract. She did not comply and her contract was cancelled. That basically ended singing her career.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That's really sad. Shows that harassment in the workplace has been going on a long time. 

I don't see any reason actresses, opera singers, entertainers etc should be expected to have sex any more than any other workers should.

There is the fascinating question of the harassment rules for sex workers, but that is a different discussion. 




EleGirl said:


> Interesting.... happened to my mother too.
> 
> She did have a contract singing at the Met in the 1940's. The guy who controlled her contract was sexually harassing her. He told her that if she did not have sex with him he would cancel her contract. She did not comply and her contract was cancelled. That basically ended singing her career.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MAJDEATH said:


> "Forced to make a choice" - what is that exactly? Pam Anderson mentioned a 3rd option - just walk away. You may not get the role but at least you won't get "rolled".



In the early 1970's I worked for a guy who owned several businesses. I was in my early 20's and he was in his 50's. I spent a lot of time alone with him in a jewelry work shop where I was grinding stones and making jewelry (silver and gold smithing). He used to blab on for hours.. one of the topics he liked to go on about was all the women that he put in situations where they can to have sex with him or lose their jobs. 

one of his other businesses was a restaurant. He said that he only hired waitresses that were single mothers with no help from the father of their children. Basically women in dire straights, trying to feed their kids. Once he hired them he would start demanding sex. He told me that he knew that he got them in a position where they depended on their job and could not just quit. He would laugh about them and tell me all about it. This was a town where there were no other jobs and the economy was bad. So the women were lucky to have any job at all. And he was more than glad to take advantage.

Shoot the bad economy and lack of jobs were the only reason I was working for the pig. I did have to eventually quit because after telling me all that he started pressuring me for sex. He was a family "friend". I knew his wife and kids. He knew my family, etc. But he still thought this was ok. When I quit, I job searched for the better part of a year and could not find a job... had to live off my MIL. Eventually I joined the Army to get away.

I was lucky because I was able to tell my MIL what was going on (My husband told me that I should just have sex with the guy and get lots of free jewelry that we could sell.) and she helped me out. So I was not some poor woman with no one who would help her, children to feed and a boss who held the control over the only job she could get. I could leave and did.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

@EleGirl, Do you think he was badmouthing you to potential employers?



> When I quit, I job searched for the better part of a year and could not find a job... had to live off my MIL. Eventually I joined the Army to get away.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

uhtred said:


> That's really sad. Shows that harassment in the workplace has been going on a long time.
> 
> I don't see any reason actresses, opera singers, entertainers etc should be expected to have sex any more than any other workers should.
> 
> There is the fascinating question of the harassment rules for sex workers, but that is a different discussion.


This has gone on since the dawn of time, nothing new. What is new is that in more recent decades, we have enacted laws against this kind of harassment. They are still hard to enforce, but at least our society is trying to do something about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> @EleGirl, Do you think he was badmouthing you to potential employers?


I have never thought of that. But an interesting thought.... 

What I do know that I could not find a job locally. Left NM and drove to NJ to live with my grandmother. I was able to get a good paying job in a week.. only applied for one job and go it. Then I joined the Army because there was no way I could live with my Grandmother and aunts... LOL


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why? Because it has always been so? Viva la power broker establishment?


Cause the only qualification is young and hot. No BS degree required to join SAG and star in a film. Thousands of new starry eyed's climb off the bus every year.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> It would be interesting to get an opinion from an HR or legal professional who has had to deal with these issues.
> 
> I suppose it could be a long road for someone in the department to prove that the boss's paramour did not deserve the favoritism that they got.
> 
> But at the same time, some employers have rules that intimate relationship between employees at any level is not allowed. So just on that rule alone, all you would need to do is prove that an inappropriate relationship is in motion.


I helped get someone fired because he had raped two young female trainees. 

They had confided in me and I encouraged them to report it to the woman who owned the company.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> I helped get someone fired because he had raped two young female trainees.
> 
> They had confided in me and I encouraged them to report it to the woman who owned the company.


The scenario that I am referring to would be you trying to prove that your co-worker is having an affair with the boss and he /she is unfairly getting the better projects, perks and other signs of favoritism. In other words, that it appears (in any case) to be a consensual relationship.

Of course, things could happen...... A saleswoman told me that the head of sales was having an affair with one of the saleswomen. One evening her husband arrived in the company parking "to have a word with the gentleman......" (_if you know what I mean_). The head of sales was immediately demoted.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > "Forced to make a choice" - what is that exactly? Pam Anderson mentioned a 3rd option - just walk away. You may not get the role but at least you won't get "rolled".
> ...


Very compelling story. I have heard others very similar. It breaks my heart that these male pigs could be so cruel and take advantage of a situation. 

But what about personal integrity? Is there a line you wouldn't cross? My W was a model, starting as a teen. She constantly got propositioned to do nudes, dance at strip clubs, do porn, escort service, etc. She was taken advantage of several times with contracts/money management, yet she never crossed her personal boundary. Even after she became homeless for a time and was living out of her car when trying to switch careers.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Men aren't the only pigs in Hollywood. George Reeves (original Superman) was supposedly coerced into an affair with the wife of an MGM producer. Ethel Merman was known to go after the young guys like Jerry Orbach who toured with her.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> In the early 1970's I worked for a guy who owned several businesses. I was in my early 20's and he was in his 50's. I spent a lot of time alone with him in a jewelry work shop where I was grinding stones and making jewelry (silver and gold smithing). He used to blab on for hours.. one of the topics he liked to go on about was all the women that he put in situations where they can to have sex with him or lose their jobs.
> 
> one of his other businesses was a restaurant. He said that he only hired waitresses that were single mothers with no help from the father of their children. Basically women in dire straights, trying to feed their kids. Once he hired them he would start demanding sex. He told me that he knew that he got them in a position where they depended on their job and could not just quit. He would laugh about them and tell me all about it. This was a town where there were no other jobs and the economy was bad. So the women were lucky to have any job at all. And he was more than glad to take advantage.
> 
> ...


Ele, did your husband make that statement before or after his brain problem? His brain problem didn't have anything to do with a cast iron frying pan upside it, did it? I won't judge.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are some very difficult questions with jobs that start to blend into sex work. 

At one extreme, someone working at a legal brothel might be expected to have sex with the boss at the usual rates. 

A model is not a sex worker. A nude model is *probably* not a sex worker, but there are a lot of different types of "nude" modeling. Stripping is more like sex work - but is it OK to require strippers to have sex with the boss to keep their jobs? (I think no).

Porn stars on the other hand, it might be a reasonable requirement -or is it? Maybe if she is paid the normal rate for doing a scene?

Its off topic, but interesting - when you consider sex workers, a lot of normal ideas about what is OK at a job site need to be modified. 




MAJDEATH said:


> snip
> 
> But what about personal integrity? Is there a line you wouldn't cross? My W was a model, starting as a teen. She constantly got propositioned to do nudes, dance at strip clubs, do porn, escort service, etc. She was taken advantage of several times with contracts/money management, yet she never crossed her personal boundary. Even after she became homeless for at time and was living out of her car when trying to switch careers.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Cause the only qualification is young and hot. No BS degree required to join SAG and star in a film. Thousands of new starry eyed's climb off the bus every year.


I don't know what SAG is. But without sexual favors to jettison one, one would actually require some talent I would think. I am not sure how that is a bad thing. That thousands fail would remain the case. So what?


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't know what SAG is. But without sexual favors to jettison one, one would actually require some talent I would think. I am not sure how that is a bad thing. That thousands fail would remain the case. So what?


Acting is unionized, Screen Actors Guild SAG membership is required.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Acting is unionized, Screen Actors Guild SAG membership is required.


Ah. Thank you.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

uhtred said:


> There are some very difficult questions with jobs that start to blend into sex work.
> 
> At one extreme, someone working at a legal brothel might be expected to have sex with the boss at the usual rates.
> 
> ...


Modeling is similar to acting, and all other sub-categories under the Entertainment Industry umbrella. Entertainment is what people seek during their leisure time away from work/school/etc, and they want to laugh, have fun, feel good, and enjoy themselves. And that is the same for sexual activity so the 2 are often connected in the minds of the general public. Acting is about creating a character that is believable by manipulating appearance, language, emotions, and behaviors. So if your character has sex with strangers or gets naked at the drop of a hat, and that makes the audience members fell good because they are watching it during leisure time, there's a great chance that they just assume that's how you really are.

My W has friends in all different sub-categories in the industry (including acting), and they (without exception) have stated the difficulties in navigating the system carefully. I remember one particular actor who got started as a child star and he was adamant that no parent in their right minds would ever let their child be exposed to the entertainment industry.


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