# How Happy are you?



## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

I have to wonder about this?? What is it like for LD people to be successful in putting off sex for a few weeks.Do you feel you gained something?? When you have a no sex weekend do you feel good about it Monday mourning??Where are the rewards you get from not enjoying sex with your partner???Do you stand tall and say life is so good,I have gone 3 weeks without having to have sex??Oh how wonderful went on vacation and did not have to have sex??Finely my Husband never tries to do me anymore??I am so happy I never have to perform sex again??? I only have to do it once a Month??


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

I know for myself I am probably considered semi-LD. But it is not exactly the way you described. I want to have sex, just not that often. I have the drive to get off, just not that often with my wife. When there is some time between when we are intimate I usually get more aroused and into it. When it is close together, I lose interest. I know for me this comes from not being attracted to her.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I would be very interested to hear my wife's answer to these questions. Only problem, is I can't ask her, because I want to have sex someday again.


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## Uglee70 (Jan 2, 2009)

I used to think that my wife was LD, and it used to drive me absolutely to the edge! I thought she found me unattractive or unlikeable etc etc. We had problems, I threatened to leave etc etc. I think I have found the problem...and am working on the solution.
Stress...she thrives on it. It's almost like, "If I'm not stressed, then I'm not doing enough" was her attitude. She could not sit still, could not relax, could not unwind and even worse, she simply refused to sit still, relax or unwind. The more she worked and stressed, the less she would want sex. At the lowest ebb, we had sex twice in five months!
In the end I have had to force her out of the office before 17.00 and keep her away from the office on weekends. 
Instead, take her for walks in the forest, or by the lake. Sit in the sun and drink coffee. In other words I have had to remove as much as possible the influence that makes her stress and slowly but surely she is beginning to enjoy life more and the sex is getting better and more frequent. Now she actually seems to want sex more and more.
My conclusion is that LD people are simply pre-occupied with something that makes them not want to do things that make them feel good. That's from my experience anyway.
There is a way to get these people to enjoy sex...you just have to have the patience to find the problem and the solution. It's not easy, but if you love them, it's worth it!


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

I am not putting off sex, I could go on without sex for weeks, even months, because I have other things in my mind, which makes me not thinking about it. But if my wife ask for it, then I'll hit the Red Bulls, start to do self-hypnosis, and be intimate with her. Not all LDs are selfish..we cares for our spouses too..


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> I have to wonder about this?? What is it like for LD people to be successful in putting off sex for a few weeks.Do you feel you gained something?? When you have a no sex weekend do you feel good about it Monday mourning??Where are the rewards you get from not enjoying sex with your partner???Do you stand tall and say life is so good,I have gone 3 weeks without having to have sex??Oh how wonderful went on vacation and did not have to have sex??Finely my Husband never tries to do me anymore??I am so happy I never have to perform sex again??? I only have to do it once a Month??


I dare say not all LD folks are LD for the same, so I only speak for myself. In my period of being LD (wanting it 2-3 times a month), I was usually stressed when we went for a long time without sex. I knew it bothered my husband and it made things really tense around the house. 

I think when I first slipped in LD, I didn't think about it a whole lot because I was exhausted and stressed out and my marriage was under a lot of strain. After the other issues got largely worked thought, however, I stayed LD and didn't know how to fix it even though my H made clear it was a huge issue for him. From that time forward I found my LD to be stressful; not at all satisfying or rewarding. I dreaded the prospect of sex, yes, but I also dreaded the tension between my H and me. Not a comfortable situation at all.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Back when I was repressing myself, there was a constant undercurrent of tension and distance. I knew I had successfully blocked any situation that might lead to sex but I didn't feel good about that accomplishment. And it took recognizing that my success in blocking him was also contributing to my unhappiness in general that I finally decided to become unblocked. I was about 35 at the time. It took another year for me to begin to open up, another few years to get rid of the resentments that had built. Now we are VERY sexually active, very open and explorative and very satisfied.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Back when I was repressing myself, there was a constant undercurrent of tension and distance. I knew I had successfully blocked any situation that might lead to sex but I didn't feel good about that accomplishment. And it took recognizing that my success in blocking him was also contributing to my unhappiness in general that I finally decided to become unblocked. I was about 35 at the time. It took another year for me to begin to open up, another few years to get rid of the resentments that had built. Now we are VERY sexually active, very open and explorative and very satisfied.


Got to tell you Girl ,You sure have it together.I really enjoy where you come from.When ever you write someone somewhere is going to get something from it.Just you saying this makes me feel there is hope in my marriage?I know its not a eye for an eye type of thing.But when my wife puts me on the back burner for sex for 21 days.There are things I do to not make her very happy.So who really wins???But she keeps it going on and on. forever.Offen wonder what keeps her motivaded to do so.Is a little sex worth it.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mrs. Pink and Mrs. GettingIt, surely your two cases represents the fact that you two still wish your marriage to be mutually fulfilling, which contributes to your success in overcoming LDness. I also think my case are similar with yours.

But, after visiting this forum regularly, I believe there are other kind of marriage, the one where the LD partner purposefully withhold sex and derive satisfaction out of his/her spouse's suffering, for whatever reasons. Or maybe it wasn't intentional at first, but even after seeing the suffering of the spouse, the withholding partner still doesn't care enough to remedy the situation. I think this is a form of emotional abuse, a form of behavioral problem, which are often underreported and downplayed, often considered unimportant (but I am sure it's a serious matter for the suffering spouses).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In other words, we are back to the "evil or ignorant" part of the program.

Happiness will be easier to declare in one case rather than the other....


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mrs. Pink and Mrs. GettingIt, surely your two cases represents the fact that you two still wish your marriage to be mutually fulfilling, which contributes to your success in overcoming LDness. I also think my case are similar with yours.
> 
> But, after visiting this forum regularly, I believe there are other kind of marriage, the one where the LD partner purposefully withhold sex and derive satisfaction out of his/her spouse's suffering, for whatever reasons. Or maybe it wasn't intentional at first, but even after seeing the suffering of the spouse, the withholding partner still doesn't care enough to remedy the situation. I think this is a form of emotional abuse, a form of behavioral problem, which are often underreported and downplayed, often considered unimportant (but I am sure it's a serious matter for the suffering spouses).


There are as many different types of marriages as there are married couples, that is for sure!

LD partners are not all the same, either. I don't know how many of them withhold sex to be evil, but I have a feeling it's fewer than HD partners perceive it to be. 

I can understand that it can come to seem that withholding is the "easy way out" for the LD partner. In my case, it made me very unhappy to not desire my husband, so I can promise you I wasn't getting enjoyment from hurting him. Partly I didn't see how deeply it was affecting him, and partly I didn't have the tools to manage my resentments. When I came to understand the former, I immediately started to work on the latter. And now that he's happy, he's showing much more willingness to work on some of my relationship needs. Somebody has to step up--if you both cling tightly to your hurt, nothing ever gets better.

LD is "fixable" in many cases: finding the key to the fix for an individual and the particular relationship dynamic is the hard part.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> There are as many different types of marriages as there are married couples, that is for sure!
> 
> LD partners are not all the same, either. I don't know how many of them withhold sex to be evil, but I have a feeling it's fewer than HD partners perceive it to be.


Unfortunately they are _very Real_ 

check this one out:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67027-cruel-unfeeling-wife.html

there are more where they came from.



> LD is "fixable" in many cases: finding the key to the fix for an individual and the particular relationship dynamic is the hard part.


This one I am agree 100%, BUT, In your case and mine, _WE_ want to be better, so _WE_ work out through our own willpower to overcome LDness. Well, at least you are. I am still LD but now I am more pliable .

But, as you yourself have mentioned in our last conversation, it's all up to the LD partner to _WANT_ to make the change. The HD partner cannot do anything about it. He/she might be doing 1000 wonderful things for the LD partner, but if the LD simply not willing to change, then nothing the HD could to about it.

BTW, me and some of the regular posters at TAM had had this LD-HD thread not long ago, you can still find it here, it's very enlightening.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66397-hd-ld-marriage-how-avoid-how-enjoy-how-get-out.html


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Change occurs a lot faster if the consequences of not changing are negative, rather than if the consequences of changing are positive.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Unfortunately they are _very Real_
> 
> check this one out:
> 
> ...


I read the LD link you provided. That particular cold and unfeeling LD wife pretty much said "If you want to be with me fine, but you will probably be cuckholded. Also, I will let you perform oral sex on me, but don't expect anything from me."...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Yea, they can be _that_ cruel.. 

Those are the kind of people which gives us LD people a bad name.

But somehow I could sense that somebody is going to somehow defend her, one way or another ..


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

Just Wondering said:


> I have to wonder about this?? What is it like for LD people to be successful in putting off sex for a few weeks.Do you feel you gained something?? When you have a no sex weekend do you feel good about it Monday mourning??Where are the rewards you get from not enjoying sex with your partner???Do you stand tall and say life is so good,I have gone 3 weeks without having to have sex??Oh how wonderful went on vacation and did not have to have sex??Finely my Husband never tries to do me anymore??I am so happy I never have to perform sex again??? I only have to do it once a Month??


I'm the LD half of a HD/LD relationship. I'm kind of an extreme case... I'm basically an asexual in a relationship with a guy who wants sex three to four times a day. 

To answer your questions:

- I _don't_ feel like I've gained anything after no sex for several weeks, because I'm not thinking about sex. 
- When I have a no sex weekend, I don't feel good about it on Monday because I'm not thinking about sex.
- There are no rewards to not having sex with my partner, because I'm not thinking about sex.
- If I never had to have sex again, it's not something I'd feel good or bad about, because I'm still not thinking about sex.

See a pattern?

It's not something I do on purpose to be cruel, and I don't keep track of sexless days and proudly wave those numbers in my partner's face. Yes, sex feels great, and my partner is someone I'm very much in love with, but sex is just not something I'm into, and it's never really been my first thought.

However, about a year ago our relationship was on the verge of collapse, and we had some brutally honest conversations about BOTH of our needs. We realized neither of us were really happy, but neither of us wanted to let go of the relationship just yet.

The result of those conversations is that we've *both* made changes; I make a conscious effort to think about sex, and to initiate something intimate on a daily basis. We have a lot of fun together now. :smthumbup: We continue to have conversations about our mutual needs as well; No set times for them, but if a need isn't getting met, we talk about it and take each other very seriously. 

So it definitely depends on the couple... Some LDs do try our hardest to make sure our HD partner's needs are met, and not all of us are evil witches trying to make our partners miserable.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Glad to know there are other LD here who does not give all other LD a bad name.


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## oddball (Sep 5, 2012)

I wonder a lot about the power my lower drive wife has about when, where and how often we have sex. I can count on one hand the number of times I have turned her down. Her turning me down is an ongoing part of my life.

Does she I wonder enjoy this bit of power play.

When I ask for new things to be explored, or ask for more touching or oral or whatever, the response is something like "Why is what we have never enough for you?"

I wonder if she enjoys the power she has in limiting what is on the table or not on the table.

Is being the LD partner not powerful?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Change occurs a lot faster if the consequences of not changing are negative, rather than if the consequences of changing are positive.


Sometimes, maybe even often. In my case, if my husband had requested a separation, I would have been sad, but I also don't think it would have made me suddenly want to work on my LD. I think we would have separated as amicably as possible. Perhaps a period of separation would have helped, or perhaps we would have drifted into divorce and found partners we were happier with. We had been living with tension and frustration and resentment for a long time--separation would have seemed like a reprieve from those things. 

That is not to say that HD partners should just give up and be quietly miserable. I'm just saying that in my case it wasn't the threat of him doing something negative that made me want to change, it was 1) him making some changes to positively affect his own happiness and 2) me coming to realize what sex really meant to him. 

I don't think my H ever thought I was being cruel or "getting away with something." He could see that I was unhappy, too.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Unfortunately they are _very Real_
> 
> check this one out:
> 
> ...


I'm not disputing that such people exist. People who are emotionally cruel and manipulative might use sex or they might use some other means to control and "torture" their partners. But those actions stem from their cruel and selfish natures, not from their LD-ness. 



john_lord_b3 said:


> This one I am agree 100%, BUT, In your case and mine, _WE_ want to be better, so _WE_ work out through our own willpower to overcome LDness. Well, at least you are. I am still LD but now I am more pliable .
> 
> But, as you yourself have mentioned in our last conversation, it's all up to the LD partner to _WANT_ to make the change. The HD partner cannot do anything about it. He/she might be doing 1000 wonderful things for the LD partner, but if the LD simply not willing to change, then nothing the HD could to about it.


Yes, in my case, LD had taken over my former HD drive due to many (rather common) issues in our marriage. My H had a hand in those issues, too, but I had finally worked on my own issues enough and he had begun to make some changes and we had reached a point where I was able to take a deep breath and say, "OK, I'll dig a little deeper and see if there is ANYTHING else I can do here." Then bingo! 

I don't want to give the impression that I just woke up one day and decided to "fix" myself. It was a long process. But, yes, my WANTING to was key--but in the end, he tipped me in that direction by 1) not giving up with trying to communicate the importance of sex to me and 2) seeking positive changes in his own life outside of our marriage. 

My H didn't know any more than I did the key to fixing my libido. We struggled with our sex life for years. Now that we have it back, I will work hard to keep it. He still has issues that trigger my LD--and I'm going to a therapist to find ways to deal with that impulse. I'm hoping that keeping up with and nurturing our intimacy will eventually make HIM want to deal address those issues for my sake. He lived a long time with the emotional pain I was causing him; I will do the same for him. 



john_lord_b3 said:


> BTW, me and some of the regular posters at TAM had had this LD-HD thread not long ago, you can still find it here, it's very enlightening.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66397-hd-ld-marriage-how-avoid-how-enjoy-how-get-out.html


I've read a lot of LD/HD threads. I don't comment on most of them because I'm unsure if my experience is common and I don't know how much I have to offer. So many of the relationships seem so far gone into anger and resentment and blame (e.g. the HD spouse feels like the LD spouse is having a great time, withholding sex as punishment, etc.) So many HD spouses claim that they have already done everything they can think of to change their LD spouses, and that they are done trying. The issues are so complex and fraught with frustration and anger, and we only really get one side of the story . . . well, I sometimes find it hard to even know what to say beyond the usual suggestions. I find the bitterness very . . . well, sad and full of despair. It scares me to realize that my husband might have been heading that way, but it also gives me every reason to work on intimacy every day with him.

The threads that indicate a partner who is willing to change themselves in order to affect change in their spouse seem most hopeful. Also the threads that seek to try and really understand possible underlying issues of LD. I recognize my experience in some of those cases and feel like my sharing details of my own story might be of use.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> I have to wonder about this?? What is it like for LD people to be successful in putting off sex for a few weeks.Do you feel you gained something?? When you have a no sex weekend do you feel good about it Monday mourning??Where are the rewards you get from not enjoying sex with your partner???Do you stand tall and say life is so good,I have gone 3 weeks without having to have sex??Oh how wonderful went on vacation and did not have to have sex??Finely my Husband never tries to do me anymore??I am so happy I never have to perform sex again??? I only have to do it once a Month??



I felt relief, like I'd escaped. 


I did not feel like I'd gained anything, other than a reprieve. I did not count days or weeks. If we went long enough without, I started to relax and could stop thinking about it. But by that time, he was miserable and cranky and I would know why. I did not want him to be miserable...him being miserable affected the whole atmosphere of the house and it sucked. 

In my situation, I only had the power by default. I was not LD for the power. That meant nothing to me, in fact, I felt powerless. I have spent most of my life feeling powerless, sex was no different. So, no, I didn't become LD for the power. LOL. Not at all.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I'm not disputing that such people exist. People who are emotionally cruel and manipulative might use sex or they might use some other means to control and "torture" their partners. But those actions stem from their cruel and selfish natures, not from their LD-ness..........My H didn't know any more than I did the key to fixing my libido. We struggled with our sex life for years. Now that we have it back, I will work hard to keep it. He still has issues that trigger my LD--and I'm going to a therapist to find ways to deal with that impulse. I'm hoping that keeping up with and nurturing our intimacy will eventually make HIM want to deal address those issues for my sake. He lived a long time with the emotional pain I was causing him; I will do the same for him.....So many HD spouses claim that they have already done everything they can think of to change their LD spouses, and that they are done trying. The issues are so complex and fraught with frustration and anger, and we only really get one side of the story . . . well, I sometimes find it hard to even know what to say beyond the usual suggestions. I find the bitterness very . . . well, sad and full of despair. It scares me to realize that my husband might have been heading that way, but it also gives me every reason to work on intimacy every day with him....The threads that indicate a partner who is willing to change themselves in order to affect change in their spouse seem most hopeful. Also the threads that seek to try and really understand possible underlying issues of LD. I recognize my experience in some of those cases and feel like my sharing details of my own story might be of use.


Mrs. GettingIt, once again I must express my admiration for your clear-headedness and very balanced judgements. Perhaps being in both sides of the camp (once LD now normal) allows you to see things more objectively. Thumbs Up! :smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

There are so many variables at play in the so called Low Drive woman it is impossible to categorized them. Then you add in how the husband responds and how that affects her willingness or refusal to try, it is not something that can be worked out easily or in a short period of time.

Yes, there are women who defend their lack of desire by claiming permission to control their own bodies. Of course they have that control! But is it right that maintaining that control be so hurtful to the one they supposedly love? I say NO!

Yes, there are women who have suffered traumas or were raised to feel such shame about their bodies they can't enjoy sex and need to control it. But is that fair to their husband and is it okay to keep hurting him? I say no!

Yes, there are women who are dealing with physical and mental health problems which causes either physical pain or great mental anguish to have sex. Does this mean they cut off all avenues to expressing physical love, leaving their husbands feeling unloved? I say no!

men have been raised to be respectful, to not demand sex, to understand they do not own their spouses body. As a result, men stand on very shaking ground when confronted with a wife who has no desire or has lost her desire. Being respectful of your wife's autonomy doesn't mean you have to or should wait for her to wake up one day, or hand her control over all physical love expressions.

Men, you must open the subject and keep it open. You must force your wife to participate in problem solving. You must not feel shame that you have a physical and emotional need for sex with your wife. It is a very complicated problem, that takes a while to work through, but almost never goes away on it's own.



Just Wondering said:


> There are things I do to not make her very happy.So who really wins???But she keeps it going on and on. forever.Offen wonder what keeps her motivaded to do so.Is a little sex worth it.


Thanks for the kind words. You are hitting the nail on the head when you recognize how your response plays into the problem. being rejected hurts. being hurt frequently makes us want to lash out, shut down and distance ourselves from the source of pain.

if you want a good sex life with your wife, meet her emotional needs as you insist she learn to meet yours. this is not a quid pro quo arrangement. But she needs to understand you can only keep giving, and keep getting rejected for so long.

Motivated to change happens when staying the same becomes too painful. Motivated to work happens when the rewards are worth the effort.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mrs. Pink, that is very enlightening. But what about LD husbands? We exist too. At present, I am very pliable and accomodating to my wife's desire, but there were times where I wasn't as pliable as now. 

Do you have any words of encouragements for LD husbands too, to help them overcome their LD ness? 

(this is assuming that they want to overcome their LD ness. I have read about LD men who neglect their wives. I sure as hell doesn't want to end up like them!)


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> The threads that indicate a partner who is willing to change themselves in order to affect change in their spouse seem most hopeful. Also the threads that seek to try and really understand possible underlying issues of LD. I recognize my experience in some of those cases and feel like my sharing details of my own story might be of use.


Could not agree more. I think it's important for women like us to stay active in SIM because it is really really hard to work through this and I personally don't see MC being very effective because so many miss matched couples have such a hard time getting to the truth. Here, they can be blunt and honest and let it all out.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Mrs. Pink, that is very enlightening. But what about LD husbands? We exist too. At present, I am very pliable and accomodating to my wife's desire, but there were times where I wasn't as pliable as now.
> 
> Do you have any words of encouragements for LD husbands too, to help them overcome their LD ness?
> 
> (this is assuming that they want to overcome their LD ness. I have read about LD men who neglect their wives. I sure as hell doesn't want to end up like them!)


John, I've been waiting for you to ask! lets start with physical issues because men are very different from women!

When you say you are low drive, what exactly does that mean? Do you have erections when you take care of your wife's needs? Do you stay partially limp? How often do you get full erections?

Have you had your thyroid and your testosterone checked?


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Could not agree more. I think it's important for women like us to stay active in SIM because it is really really hard to work through this and I personally don't see MC being very effective because so many miss matched couples have such a hard time getting to the truth. Here, they can be blunt and honest and let it all out.


I totally agree. Some people may think I am here just to rile people and be an ass, but I need to VENT. I've carried all this inside me for YEARS and there is no one I can talk to, or want to talk to, about it IRL. Hubs doesn't understand, and he gets defensive and just stops listening. Even when he reads what I write here, he gets upset. :scratchhead: Here, in an anonymous forum, I can let it all out and get some valuable feedback. I don't have to be polite about it either....because, well, I don't FEEL polite about this. Talking about sex makes me MAD. Talking about relationships makes me ANGRY. And if people on the internet don't like that I am angry about it, well, I don't have to care. People IRL aren't so disposable.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I totally agree. Some people may think I am here just to rile people and be an ass, but I need to VENT. I've carried all this inside me for YEARS and there is no one I can talk to, or want to talk to, about it IRL. Hubs doesn't understand, and he gets defensive and just stops listening. Even when he reads what I write here, he gets upset. :scratchhead: Here, in an anonymous forum, I can let it all out and get some valuable feedback. I don't have to be polite about it either....because, well, I don't FEEL polite about this. Talking about sex makes me MAD. Talking about relationships makes me ANGRY. And if people on the internet don't like that I am angry about it, well, I don't have to care. People IRL aren't so disposable.



Too true, all of it!

During my years of repression I was a very angry person. Think about this though...

Anger is not a base emotion, it is a defense against the base emotion of fear or hurt. Fear/hurt is the base. On top of fear one jumps to anger. Anger is what propels the fight in fight/flight response.So each time your anger is triggered, try to get to the base emotion. Is it fear? Fear of being hurt? Fear of the hurt of feeling inadequate, wrong, broken?

As you begin to get to the base emotion when you contemplate your lack of desire, you can then begin to identify where exactly your lack of desire is coming from. Only when you can honestly understand your own lack of desire can you begin to alter it. But the anger has to go first. Anger just reinforces walls and defenses.

Did you get your GYN appointment yet? Don't mess around with that! Go ahead and flay me, I can take it!


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Too true, all of it!
> 
> During my years of repression I was a very angry person. Think about this though...
> 
> ...



Anger has always been my go to response for everything. I've never looked much beyond that. I just kind of figured it was a method to keep people at arm's length. I guess it doesn't matter what the real emotion is. It all gets dealt with the same way.

As for the dr appt, I have a family MD who sees to all that. I went to make the appt yesterday and his office is closed till the 10th. How convenient. I haven't had any more bleeding, so it was just a one time thing. 
Pelvic exams are just SO humiliating. I am extremely low risk for every kind of thing they check for, which is why I keep putting it off. I suppose I'll get around to doing it eventually.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> John, I've been waiting for you to ask! lets start with physical issues because men are very different from women!
> 
> When you say you are low drive, what exactly does that mean? Do you have erections when you take care of your wife's needs? Do you stay partially limp? How often do you get full erections?
> 
> Have you had your thyroid and your testosterone checked?


Never checked thyroid and testosterone, never thought they're necessary. As for erections, I could achieve erection, but not automatic, took me awhile to get hard. Once "Warmed Up" I am as good as any. ALso, I learned self-hypnosis techniques, get in shape, and keep Red Bulls handy.

The thing is, I rarely initiated. I am the type of guy who simply cannot let go of my work, to the point of absent-mindedness. I jokingly call this a "brain divert" syndrome, my brain diverted all the blood flow towards itself, leaving my balls just hanging there doing nothing. 

During weekdays I don't think of sex, all I think about is work. I had to schedule sex to weekends and holidays. I am pliable though, if she ask for sex during weekdays, I will gladly accomodate. Thankfully she is not a HD, seems like she's OK with weekend sex 3 times a month, sometimes 4, for now.

There were times where we were in a much worse situation. See, in our first few years of marriage I rarely initiates due to my absent-mindedness, while my wife (at that time) were too shy to ask. So, this translated into sex _maybe_ once a month when I remembered to ask. She was OK with it for awhile, until the birth of our son, which changes everything. At that time I was so happy, I was too much into "Papa" mode, I enjoyed shopping for diapers, baby clothings, looking for discount for formula milk, etc, most of all I enjoyed showing off my baby to my clan. We're Asians, to us having a son is something we're very proud of. I assumed (wrongly!) that my wife is also in "Mama" mode, so I thought for her no sex was OK, we have this little one to take care for. WRONG, because my absent-mindedness+overjoyed for the baby+her being too timid to initiate = No sex for a year. Yea, a year. 

She must have endured the suffering until one day she yelled at me "Am I become so unattractive to you after I gave birth to your son?!?" THAT brought me back to Earth. That was the time I realized that I gave too much attention to her being the mother of my son, but forgot (maybe out of absent-mindedness and sheer convenience) that she is also my wife and sexual partner. 

So, afterwards, I scaled back my absent-mindedness and do serious efforts to attend to her needs, to the best of what I've got. For now it's the scheduled weekly sex. She haven't complained again yet, so I must have done something right along the way. OH btw, at weekends we are a very touchy-feely couple, I like to hold her hands, kiss her often, and one of my workout routine is to lift her and carry her around the house  And these days she is not too shy to ask/initiate, so we're having more sex than before. 

What saved us is perhaps the fact that none of us are HD though. IF she is HD, then I would have to find way to have sex more than once a week.. and that's not an easy task


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

John, you sound like EntirelyDifferent above. It sounds like sex just isn't on your radar. You don't think about it and therefore you don't feel a need for it. I think my husband might be similar. We have a good relationship other than sex. He's very loving and affectionate, it just never progresses beyond that unless I take it further. Even then, I'll get turned down if he isn't willing to put forth the effort. Things have been a little better this year because I've refused to drop it. But it takes constant effort and prodding from me. It's hard to walk the line of prodding and nagging on such a constant basis. It's also exhausting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

The theory goes that as boys learn about their magical changing penis, the develop neural pathways that later become sexual response pathways. he more neural pathways, the more frequent a sexual response can/will be triggered. Men think about sex every 7 seconds, or so they say. it is a self propagating process as boys become men and learn that being hard is part of being a man. they actually reinforce their own sex drive by coming to understand that thinking about sex, being hard is how men are supposed to be. Add to that, men are biologically driven to reproduce as much as they can for evolutionary reasons.

Now, add in other variables such as physical health, mental health and shame and you get the various amounts of individual drive in the adult male.

Low thyroid or low T would affect other areas of your life too. Mainly fatigue and weight gain. Since you don't have any other symptoms of low thyroid or low T, it might appear that you have an under developed neurological road map to sexual arousal. For whatever reason, you didn't make enough neurological pathways growing up that connected your sexual self with your identity as a man.

When you look at pictures of women, pics designed to be sexually provocative, do you feel the stirrings of arousal? If you do, and you would like to become a higher drive male, then you have to consciously and continually awaken your sexual arousal pathways. You do this by thinking about sex with your wife. By looking at pictures of sexy women or your wife looking sexy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Anger has always been my go to response for everything. I've never looked much beyond that. I just kind of figured it was a method to keep people at arm's length. I guess it doesn't matter what the real emotion is. It all gets dealt with the same way.
> 
> As for the dr appt, I have a family MD who sees to all that. I went to make the appt yesterday and his office is closed till the 10th. How convenient. I haven't had any more bleeding, so it was just a one time thing.
> Pelvic exams are just SO humiliating. I am extremely low risk for every kind of thing they check for, which is why I keep putting it off. I suppose I'll get around to doing it eventually.



Becoming a less angry person is good for you, even if you have gorgeous red hair! keeping people at arms length...not good for you, even if it has worked in the past.

Yes, pelvic exams are very humiliating. I had a kind of bone cancer that is very rare and I have ZERO risk factors not to ,emotion the fact that my rare cancer is most often found in children. If it hadn't been caught early, it was only a sliver away from invading my lung, I would not be here today.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, pelvic exams are very humiliating. I had a kind of bone cancer that is very rare and I have ZERO risk factors not to ,emotion the fact that my rare cancer is most often found in children. If it hadn't been caught early, it was only a sliver away from invading my lung, I would not be here today.


This is why I found a Gyn office with lots of female practitioners. I find it much easier to go to a woman who understands what it's like to lay on a table in the most vulnerable position (which happens to be quite the same as the missionary position) in front of a near stranger in order to be examined.  That being said, the one time I had to see a male doctor in their office, he was extraordinarily nice and professional and had a remarkably calming personality.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

I am really trying to enter the mind of a L.D. Female here.To start with I totally love my wife for 30 yrs.She has always been Lack of sexual desire,But I have lived with it.But its getting worse in the last few yrs.I really believe she is asexual.I have fought the fight for yrs.Lately my new game is to allow her to be the way She is.But their are no rewards for me excepting that position.Its like she feels.My husband has finely figured out that I don't want sex,He doesn't ask or fight about anymore.Well the anger and resentment is always their and constantly building.It just seems like if you allow it to be her way,Its like Mold, It keeps growing.She loves it to be her way.She is content.
Now I must say this is a sex thing not a love thing.She does love me very much.But has not interest in sex.Not on her mind ever.But its like what you allow will continue to be.So you give up the battle.Sex has been remove from our lifes.I will not get pissed,I will not ask for it.I will not look forward to it.Its just gone.And she is delighted.The shame of it all is I am a very loven person,Nice Guy,caring,Loves to give and receive affection.But its not available within my relationship.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> The theory goes that as boys learn about their magical changing penis, the develop neural pathways that later become sexual response pathways. he more neural pathways, the more frequent a sexual response can/will be triggered. Men think about sex every 7 seconds, or so they say. it is a self propagating process as boys become men and learn that being hard is part of being a man. they actually reinforce their own sex drive by coming to understand that thinking about sex, being hard is how men are supposed to be. Add to that, men are biologically driven to reproduce as much as they can for evolutionary reasons.
> 
> Now, add in other variables such as physical health, mental health and shame and you get the various amounts of individual drive in the adult male.
> 
> ...


Very interesting theory about those neural pathways things. I learn something new everyday!

Sexy girls in magazines doesn't really arouse me much. I think they're being put in magazine just for advertising because they're good looking. 

I like listening to female singers and enjoy their life performance. but that's because I am a former amateur musician myself, I appreciate all kind of music.

But I am not a prude. I have an open mind. I watch porn with my wife. We even have our favorite actor/actresses. But, interestingly, after a while we actually get bored with porn, and it's been a while since we watch them. Porn is actors and actresses getting naked, having sex and being filmed. Good for expanding our knowledge of techniques and positions (and knowing what positions we CANNOT do due to physical impossibilities!), but after awhile, really, it's getting boring to see the exact same plot..I prefer to watch something more substantial, with a good story, you know, like "Pretty Woman" starring Richard Gere and Julia Roberts. The sex scenes there is appropriate because it's part of the story.

When I get aroused while watching porn, it's because my wife is next to me doing the cuddling groping thing. Watching alone to me is wasting time. If I have time, i'd rather surf the internet and take notes for my next presentation, or find tips about how to fix the newest office gadgets which those procurement guys bought _without_ consulting me. And to visit TAM, off course 

But maybe you're right about that neural path thing. If I see my wife toweling herself after taking a bath, I seldomly have an urge to do anything sexual _just by seeing that_, because to me towelling after bathing is what everybody does, I do too. But if she approached me with a certain body language, a certain gesture, even if she is fully clothed, my mind goes "well, it's fun time with the lady", and mentally preparing myself even before she verbally express her intention to get intimate. So you think this is because I must process everything in the brain first, instead of having direct neural path from the eyes to the penis?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> I am really trying to enter the mind of a L.D. Female here.To start with I totally love my wife for 30 yrs.She has always been Lack of sexual desire,But I have lived with it.But its getting worse in the last few yrs.I really believe she is asexual.I have fought the fight for yrs.Lately my new game is to allow her to be the way She is.But their are no rewards for me excepting that position.Its like she feels.My husband has finely figured out that I don't want sex,He doesn't ask or fight about anymore.Well the anger and resentment is always their and constantly building.It just seems like if you allow it to be her way,Its like Mold, It keeps growing.She loves it to be her way.She is content.
> Now I must say this is a sex thing not a love thing.She does love me very much.But has not interest in sex.Not on her mind ever.But its like what you allow will continue to be.So you give up the battle.Sex has been remove from our lifes.I will not get pissed,I will not ask for it.I will not look forward to it.Its just gone.And she is delighted.The shame of it all is I am a very loven person,Nice Guy,caring,Loves to give and receive affection.But its not available within my relationship.


When you say "you fought the fight for years," what do you mean? Than you and your wife argued about sex a lot? Or did you try other things? Do you think she understands what lack of a sex life means to YOU in your marriage? I heard the words my husband said about his unhappiness for YEARS, but I did not really "get it" until I did some research myself and ended up reading the words of a whole slew of similarly unhappy men here on TAL. I know it sounds dense, but I truly, truly did not understand the depth of my husband's misery. It was much more than him not getting his rocks off as much as he wanted. 

If he would have given up and let me "win," things would never have changed. It really is sobering to read what you have to say. I'm sure he was headed down that road.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I should probably put together a treatise on LD taxonomy based on what I have read here as a lurker of many months. The same patterns of behavior are going round and round to no end.

Ultimately, dealing with LD at the other end as the ND/HD spouse is not a static situation or a stable chronic condition. There is a decay introduced into the relationship and it can have some pretty undesirable effects.

What begins with casual rejection will likely produce a counter move and things will either be aired out or the issue will be swept under the rug where it will get worse.

Sex gets people out of their comfort zone and as such is an awesome way to be used as a talisman of the overall status of a relationship. unfortunately way too often sex is used as a proxy war between the partners.

Ultimately, extreme behavior has a habit of desensitizing. I find little difference between merchant marine sex and no sex, certainly not worth in terms of quality or quantity the good behavior 24/7 or six pack improvements suggested. Instead I am free to treat my wife as the roommate she aspires to be with all the benefits and limitations. She does not like it one bit, but to me it is not worth having to listen to her endless emotional support tirades she goes on daily about "her issues" (ranging from work to her family back home to her landscaping). Not my job description.

I have offered MC, IC, and many other options but none have been accepted. So I do what I would for a roommate and that is all. 

Of course it is easy to do this since I have little to lose. I do not care about the material goods she has surrounded herself in search of the elusive happiness. She does. Yesterday I commented that we are drifting apart in our relationship, for many reasons that she is well aware of. Her response was a very agitated "are you threatening me".

Now I know that it's her inner 3-year old talking (BPD) and don't take such responses to heart. Still...


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> When you say "you fought the fight for years," what do you mean? Than you and your wife argued about sex a lot? Or did you try other things? Do you think she understands what lack of a sex life means to YOU in your marriage? I heard the words my husband said about his unhappiness for YEARS, but I did not really "get it" until I did some research myself and ended up reading the words of a whole slew of similarly unhappy men here on TAL. I know it sounds dense, but I truly, truly did not understand the depth of my husband's misery. It was much more than him not getting his rocks off as much as he wanted.
> 
> If he would have given up and let me "win," things would never have changed. It really is sobering to read what you have to say. I'm sure he was headed down that road.


What I mean is I have tried to charge her,I have fought about it for ever.And yes she feels its all about getting your rocks off.You know at my age I really don't need that much anymore.But what I have always missed in life is the holding cuddling,kissing,She says its because it always leads to sex.So she does not do it.So we have become roommates.I am still greatful to have her in my life.Like MC Hammer says {Can't touch that}


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Just Wondering said:


> What I mean is I have tried to charge her,I have fought about it for ever.And yes she feels its all about getting your rocks off.You know at my age I really don't need that much anymore.But what I have always missed in life is the holding cuddling,kissing,She says its because it always leads to sex.So she does not do it.So we have become roommates.I am still greatful to have her in my life.Like MC Hammer says {Can't touch that}


This is so sad. It is a life wasted. 

For me, sex is the greatest pleasure in life. Not just the act itself. Yes, the act is great, but it is the holding and touching and closeness that I feel. When in the moment and for a while afterwards, it is as if nothing else in the world matters.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

ginger-snap said:


> John, you sound like EntirelyDifferent above. It sounds like sex just isn't on your radar. You don't think about it and therefore you don't feel a need for it. I think my husband might be similar. We have a good relationship other than sex. He's very loving and affectionate, it just never progresses beyond that unless I take it further. Even then, I'll get turned down if he isn't willing to put forth the effort. Things have been a little better this year because I've refused to drop it. But it takes constant effort and prodding from me. It's hard to walk the line of prodding and nagging on such a constant basis. It's also exhausting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 eh, I am sorry to hear that. ...But, I am pretty pliable during weekends, if I am not thinking too much about my work. Is your husband also pliable in weekends?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Just Wondering said:


> What I mean is I have tried to charge her,I have fought about it for ever.And yes she feels its all about getting your rocks off.You know at my age I really don't need that much anymore.But what I have always missed in life is the holding cuddling,kissing,She says its because it always leads to sex.So she does not do it.So we have become roommates.I am still greatful to have her in my life.Like MC Hammer says {Can't touch that}


How old are you? I mean, is that really part of the reason you've decided to give up on intimacy? 

My husband says it wasn't about the sex, either--he wanted the closeness. It has been the most humbling realization of my life that I had the power to affect my husband's happiness so profoundly. I think many wives of HD husbands *do.not.get.this.* My husband simply does not have that much power over my happiness and personal feelings of well being, so I could not fathom that *I* could have that much power over his. The more I felt deprived of my needs, the more I strove to find other things in my life to give me pleasure--I have lots of friends, I'm incredibly close to my parents and five siblings, I have hobbies, love to read and learn and travel, am active physically, etc. So the more he shut down emotionally, the more I was like, "oh well, I'll get it somewhere else." In the meantime, my husband became increasingly isolated from everything he used to do and love. His stress levels were through the roof at work and he had difficulty dealing with our three kids and he felt more abandoned by me than ever. Why? Because HE COULD NOT GET WHAT HE NEEDED ANYWHERE ELSE. I held the key, and I didn't realize it for a long time. I've been telling him to just go fix his happiness like I did, but he could not fix it without me. The thought pains me beyond belief and will probably haunt me forever. 

Just Wondering, I wonder if your wife really does not understand what power she has over your happiness. She has found her happiness and wonders why you can't find yours. If she could read what you've written here to total strangers, don't you think it might crack the ice a little? If she could see that other women felt just as she did, and then came to realize how horribly wrong they were, do you think she would take a closer look at her own actions? I don't know anything about your marriage outside of what you wrote here, but it sounds like it could be so much more, it sounds like you want it to be so much more. I don't want to tell you to keep trying when you find it painful and futile, but . . . well, you never know.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Ultimately, dealing with LD at the other end as the ND/HD spouse is not a static situation or a stable chronic condition. There is a decay introduced into the relationship and it can have some pretty undesirable effects.
> 
> What begins with casual rejection will likely produce a counter move and things will either be aired out or the issue will be swept under the rug where it will get worse.
> 
> Sex gets people out of their comfort zone and as such is an awesome way to be used as a talisman of the overall status of a relationship. unfortunately way too often sex is used as a proxy war between the partners.


This sums it up about right. Sex has to be the most damaging battleground possible in a marriage. Once you've started down that road, it's a long, very messy haul back out.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> My husband says it wasn't about the sex, either--he wanted the closeness. It has been the most humbling realization of my life that I had the power to affect my husband's happiness so profoundly. I think many wives of HD husbands *do.not.get.this.* My husband simply does not have that much power over my happiness and personal feelings of well being, so I could not fathom that *I* could have that much power over his. The more I felt deprived of my needs, the more I strove to find other things in my life to give me pleasure--I have lots of friends, I'm incredibly close to my parents and five siblings, I have hobbies, love to read and learn and travel, am active physically, etc. So the more he shut down emotionally, the more I was like, "oh well, I'll get it somewhere else." In the meantime, my husband became increasingly isolated from everything he used to do and love. His stress levels were through the roof at work and he had difficulty dealing with our three kids and he felt more abandoned by me than ever. Why? Because HE COULD NOT GET WHAT HE NEEDED ANYWHERE ELSE. I held the key, and I didn't realize it for a long time. I've been telling him to just go fix his happiness like I did, but he could not fix it without me. The thought pains me beyond belief and will probably haunt me forever.


Very perceptive and well put.

One thing that makes sex different in a marriage is that is can't be gotten else where. as noted above, most other needs can be met in a healthy way that does not violate the marriage. Not so for sex and physical intimacy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> This sums it up about right. Sex has to be the most damaging battleground possible in a marriage. Once you've started down that road, it's a long, very messy haul back out.


Actually it is not for me at least. Finances and college choice for my kids are both walk-out issues ( had to almost walk out for college for my first, will likely happen for the second)

For example, the impact of alienating her own kids for life is far more than alienating me. I'll be in a nursing home and will be rather upset if my kids become estranged due to my pig-headed-ness decades earlier. If you think no sex at 50 is bad imagine no family at 80.

Sex is a simple issue compared to those. Very simple. Alternatives exist but are not always desirable in the long term. The destructive nature of arguing about sex is that it obscures everything else going on...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Actually it is not for me at least. Finances and college choice for my kids are both walk-out issues ( had to almost walk out for college for my first, will likely happen for the second).
> 
> Sex is a simple issue compared to those. Very simple.


Marriage: the minefield for lovers.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

There are several reasons for lack of sex in a marriage.Each one is different.And alot of times I'am sure it could be the HD fault.But in my marriage its because she is asexual.Its not important to her,She does not keep track of when we did it last.Or that its time to perform again.But with that said,She also is not a touchie,feelie,person.She does not have a need to be held, or kissed,But she is full of love.Go figure. She has said it many times that it could be Tom Cruse or anyone else she really has no desire for sex.Its not like I never have sex.I do. Maybe twice a month,But I have to go after it.I think the problem with her is She as no value for it.Its not high on her wish list of things to do.
So right now I am avoiding conflict with her.Its like OK its hers and She can keep it.Don't take it out and share it.But what will happen is after a little time I will blow my mind with it.Then she will say who wants to make love to a rattlesnake.Its a pattern that has always happened.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> How old are you? I mean, is that really part of the reason you've decided to give up on intimacy?
> 
> My husband says it wasn't about the sex, either--he wanted the closeness. It has been the most humbling realization of my life that I had the power to affect my husband's happiness so profoundly. I think many wives of HD husbands *do.not.get.this.* My husband simply does not have that much power over my happiness and personal feelings of well being, so I could not fathom that *I* could have that much power over his. The more I felt deprived of my needs, the more I strove to find other things in my life to give me pleasure--I have lots of friends, I'm incredibly close to my parents and five siblings, I have hobbies, love to read and learn and travel, am active physically, etc. So the more he shut down emotionally, the more I was like, "oh well, I'll get it somewhere else." In the meantime, my husband became increasingly isolated from everything he used to do and love. His stress levels were through the roof at work and he had difficulty dealing with our three kids and he felt more abandoned by me than ever. Why? Because HE COULD NOT GET WHAT HE NEEDED ANYWHERE ELSE. I held the key, and I didn't realize it for a long time. I've been telling him to just go fix his happiness like I did, but he could not fix it without me. The thought pains me beyond belief and will probably haunt me forever.
> .



This. This. Oh so much this.

I didn't know I mattered so much to him. How could I know? I don't work like that. My parent's marriages were all disastrous....I had no clue how men functioned emotionally. I thought everyone felt like I did....separate from everyone else. When I finally found out that he was different.....that his whole emotional makeup was different and I that *I* was the key to him being happy.....well holy shi*t, didn't that just turn my world on it's ear. 

I don't blame myself for not knowing....there really was no way for me to have known and I was not in a position to be able to trust what he told me. I do however, feel horrible for those years. What a waste. I will always regret them and wish it had been different for us. And I will try to make it up to him now the best that I can.

He blames me for not figuring it out sooner and is hurt that it took me finding realization on the internet rather than through him. I can't help that I find impartial data to be more telling than what someone tells me face to face. I don't trust individual anecdotes, but when you have pages of evidence from disparate people, it becomes much more convincing. But he doesn't understand how my mind works like that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

How much would your perception of what he needs be altered by your own colored glasses? 

According to my ever angry wife all I used to care for I'd sex, food, and alcohol.once we took #1 off the table her perceived list is food, alcohol, and my iPhone. Neither list is remotely close to reality.

I do not consider myself to be a very complex person. She certainly has known me for 31 years and should know neither list is close to reality. But is it a surprise to her that she does not know what my emotional needs are if she never once asked me about them or rarely made any effort to address those needs in the last 5 years?

So, pardon me for being a sceptic when you indicate you were not aware of his needs. Not trusting him to tell you the truth is not good news either. This is simple stuff, not rocket science.

Her parents had a ho-hum marriage in a gilded environment. Except having no parents around, that is. Her sister met her demise in the pursuit of an EA so that tainted any view of normal marriage based intimacy even more... Of all the ways to go... Even with such dark colored glasses I still have a very hard time believing that she did not / does not know what my needs are (or acknowledging that they exist, period). 

The same for her children...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> He blames me for not figuring it out sooner and is hurt that it took me finding realization on the internet rather than through him. I can't help that I find impartial data to be more telling than what someone tells me face to face. I don't trust individual anecdotes, but when you have pages of evidence from disparate people, it becomes much more convincing. But he doesn't understand how my mind works like that.


Because, whether intended or not, it often comes across as "I don't believe you, you are lying until I get someone else to prove it to me."


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

john117 said:


> How much would your perception of what he needs be altered by your own colored glasses?
> 
> 
> So, pardon me for being a sceptic when you indicate you were not aware of his needs. Not trusting him to tell you the truth is not good news either. This is simple stuff, not rocket science.


In my mind, and in my experience,men are not to be trusted and they will hurt and destroy anyone or anything weaker than them. Those are the glasses I view the world through So, even though I know this isn't true of *every* man, and certainly not my husband, I sometimes unknowingly judge him by those standards. And it is not fair to him at all because I married him knowing he was not like that. He is a very good man.

I have never acknowledged anyone's emotional needs. I didn't know they even existed till this last year or so. I don't have any, or at least any that I am aware of that aren't filled without my knowing it. So I never thought about it. Why would I? How could I have known he was lacking something I didn't know existed? Nobody told me people have emotional needs so how was I supposed to know? And as for sex=emotional stuff I never knew there was a connection....again, no one told me, how was I to know??!! It makes about as much sense to me as getting all emotional about a handshake....but whatever, I don't think I will ever understand it, I will just accept it as being what it is.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because, whether intended or not, it often comes across as "I don't believe you, you are lying until I get someone else to prove it to me."


maybe so...maybe the way he said what he said, didn't communicate the same idea when she heard what he said.

There is a grave injustice done to men when women and girls are taught that, "Boys just want one thing." It is forever how we view men and the importance of sex. It's not a full picture, it is not complete and as a result we women are simply hearing excuses when we should be hearing the truth.

In LadyoftheLake's situation, it's water under the bridge now. And now she's working on meeting his needs. Bravo LOL!!!

As the mother of 3 daughters, I just today came to understand the message I've been giving them is the same that I learned, boys just want to get laid. I need to change my message so they don't destroy their husbands when their sex drive takes a dive, and it will cause it happens to almost every woman after she has kids.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because, whether intended or not, it often comes across as "I don't believe you, you are lying until I get someone else to prove it to me."




I can see that.

I didn't trust him not to try to play me, manipulate me. Perhaps he thought because I was a woman, appealing to emotions would move me? I was in such a scared place, so much was going on that I didn't understand. I didn't trust him to be honest with me. I trust him much more now, but I don't think I will ever trust anyone implicitly. That never ends well.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> maybe so...maybe the way he said what he said, didn't communicate the same idea when she heard what he said.


I don't doubt that, just noting how he (or really any HD spouse who was tried to convey this point without success) might interpret it.



> There is a grave injustice done to men when women and girls are taught that, "Boys just want one thing." It is forever how we view men and the importance of sex. It's not a full picture, it is not complete and as a result we women are simply hearing excuses when we should be hearing the truth.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> ...


I agree. The difficulty is that there are boys/men who do just want to get laid. But in a real relationship, sex very often is more than that, particularly to many men. So figuring that out can be difficult.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

As an initial matter, thank you for taking this post in the manner it was intended. Rereading it, it comes off more personal than I meant. I should have been clearer that it was more a general observation.



LadyOfTheLake said:


> I can see that.
> 
> I didn't trust him not to try to play me, manipulate me. Perhaps he thought because I was a woman, appealing to emotions would move me? I was in such a scared place, so much was going on that I didn't understand. I didn't trust him to be honest with me. I trust him much more now, but I don't think I will ever trust anyone implicitly. That never ends well.


And that can be part of the pain. Because sex is different (a need that can't be met by anyone outside of the spouse), getting married involves placing that need in the hands of your spouse and trusting them with it. When it appears that they don't return that trust (whether or not that is the intention), it can be difficult to take.

I am glad you are at a point were you can trust him more.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> How much would your perception of what he needs be altered by your own colored glasses?
> 
> According to my ever angry wife all I used to care for I'd sex, food, and alcohol.once we took #1 off the table her perceived list is food, alcohol, and my iPhone. Neither list is remotely close to reality.


Anger is so destructive. I wonder why she is so angry? 



john117 said:


> I do not consider myself to be a very complex person. She certainly has known me for 31 years and should know neither list is close to reality. But is it a surprise to her that she does not know what my emotional needs are if she never once asked me about them or rarely made any effort to address those needs in the last 5 years?


Do you consider her to be a complex person? Maybe she considers you to be one. I've been with my husband for 23 years and he still baffles me on a daily basis, and I him. It's not always a good thing for us, but we've learned a lot, that is for sure. And while the valley have been pretty low, I can say that the peaks have been pretty damn sweet. 



john117 said:


> So, pardon me for being a sceptic when you indicate you were not aware of his needs. Not trusting him to tell you the truth is not good news either. This is simple stuff, not rocket science.


Sexuality, to me, is one of the most complex, interesting and beautiful aspects of humanity. It is as old as life; indeed is IS life. In addition to neglecting my husband's needs, I had partially shut down a part of my self identity and of my humanity that I had at one time reveled in and enjoyed to its fullest. I shut it down because I thought my husband was trying to control it. I feel so much more in tune with myself now that I'm honoring it again. 

Sexuality in humans is entwined with emotions and feeling of worthiness--self worthiness, worthiness to society, worthiness to our partners and peers and family, and often worthiness to the gods we worship. Rocket science? Mere child's play in comparison.

But that's just me. And perhaps it was the freeing of my reverence for and interest in sexuality that ultimately led me to break free of my LD. Whatever it was, it was a gift.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> I agree. The difficulty is that there are boys/men who do just want to get laid. But in a real relationship, sex very often is more than that, particularly to many men. So figuring that out can be difficult.


Not all of us men are like that.

When I was in my late teens in Europe I fell in love with one of the most intriguing girls I have ever met. She was the victim of sexual abuse by a relative and also came home one day and found her father dead on the floor when she was 14. We are talking the type of person that would keep psychologists up at night. Ironically she was the one that got me hooked into psychology. I used to call her "Sally Brown". We did not do much physically - understandably - and we were both very happy and very sad at the same time. We talked. Constantly. We split when we both left our country for college, me in the US and her in another European country. I have yet to experience the type of emotion I felt for her. That was as close a relationship as I can ever think of. Strong coffee, walks in the park holding hands, and endless talks about our loves, music, art, and psychology. 

So, phoon is not all we're after all the time. But it is easy to stereotype.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> In my mind, and in my experience,men are not to be trusted and they will hurt and destroy anyone or anything weaker than them. Those are the glasses I view the world through


Sounds a lot like my wife... Though she mistrusts people in general.

A lot of it may have to do with not knowing how to read people. Thankfully I had good training there as my father was in the people reading business and we spent endless weekends walking the streets and lecturing me on the minute details and people he was trained to observe. So I learned well.

Do you feel your lack of trust is due to lack of experience or exposure to different types of people at all levels of life?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Anger is so destructive. I wonder why she is so angry?


Lots of reasons. Such as unhappiness with career, social status, family status, and grand mal insecurity. Never mind solid six figure income, me , two awesome girls, and lots of material things.



> Do you consider her to be a complex person? Maybe she considers you to be one


She is very simple-minded. She thinks she is "devious" because she is always feeling someone is out to skrew her. Me? I am even simpler and most definitely not complex. But as I said earlier by nature of upbringing and education I can read people well so I am more trusting when appropriate. What she does not see is what it takes to be this trusting i.e. the decision process.



> Sexuality, to me, is one of the most complex, interesting and beautiful aspects of humanity. It is as old as life; indeed is IS life. In addition to neglecting my husband's needs, I had partially shut down a part of my self identity and of my humanity that I had at one time reveled in and enjoyed to its fullest.


No disagreement, but within the context of a couple thinking about sex, sex is a straightforward process. Either we have it or we don't for reasons a, b, and c. What you describe is the emotional side, I am referring more to the interpersonal side. The implications of sex or no sex, LD or HD, etc are important but not as important as other decisions a couple makes (children, finances). 

If a couple squabbled for 3x a week vs 2 in the grand scheme of things the long term impact is not much. But if parent A is convinced Kenny is going to medical school or she is not paying and Kenny routinely passes out in AP Biology when dissecting mice, that is a problem that will manifest itself late in the game with far more serious implications (say, if Kenny works and goes to night school to become a music teacher and becomes estranged From parent A, and Grandma A is all alone in the nursing home...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Lots of reasons. Such as unhappiness with career, social status, family status, and grand mal insecurity. Never mind solid six figure income, me , two awesome girls, and lots of material things.
> 
> She is very simple-minded. She thinks she is "devious" because she is always feeling someone is out to skrew her. Me? I am even simpler and most definitely not complex. But as I said earlier by nature of upbringing and education I can read people well so I am more trusting when appropriate. What she does not see is what it takes to be this trusting i.e. the decision process.


Wow, she sounds really unhappy. Does she say she's unhappy? Or does she seem to enjoy her life despite her gripes with it? Some people seem to glean satisfaction from expressing their dissatisfaction. Blah. Negativity sucks. 



john117 said:


> No disagreement, but within the context of a couple thinking about sex, sex is a straightforward process. Either we have it or we don't for reasons a, b, and c. What you describe is the emotional side, I am referring more to the interpersonal side. The implications of sex or no sex, LD or HD, etc are important but not as important as other decisions a couple makes (children, finances).
> 
> If a couple squabbled for 3x a week vs 2 in the grand scheme of things the long term impact is not much. But if parent A is convinced Kenny is going to medical school or she is not paying and Kenny routinely passes out in AP Biology when dissecting mice, that is a problem that will manifest itself late in the game with far more serious implications (say, if Kenny works and goes to night school to become a music teacher and becomes estranged From parent A, and Grandma A is all alone in the nursing home...


I think sex is almost always wrapped up very deeply in emotions. Sadness, anger, anxiety, resentment, guilt, envy--you name it, negativity affects sex lives. I think it's a rare marriage that weathers deeply divisive issues without a hitch in the bedroom. 

But all marriages are different, and I'm sure that in some, sexual incompatibility is overshadowed by other issues in the unhappiness it causes. 

In an marriage that is otherwise strong, fixing a broken sex life can make solving other issues that crop up so much easier. Some people aren't apt to be bothered by divisive issues when they feel content. They might shrug and say, "Let Kenny decide what he wants to study in college. After all, it's his life."


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Wow, she sounds really unhappy. Does she say she's unhappy? Or does she seem to enjoy her life despite her gripes with it? Some people seem to glean satisfaction from expressing their dissatisfaction. Blah. Negativity sucks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True. A wrecked sex life is like riding a bike with a very rusty chain, some of the links nearly fused...

A adequate sex life greases the chain, and loosens it and things move more freely and efficiently. Everyone may not agree on the same topics, but with the sex things can be agreeable.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My wife is a Klingon in this aspect. There is one way for anything and all other options have to be eradicated. Typical Farawaystan elite. You can liquor her up in a nice Caribbean island and break in the news that Kenny got a full ride to Yale to study political science and she will still freak out.

She is unhappy because in the USA people generally work for a living and social status is not as important. Not in Farawaystan. There, a doctor is seen as super high status, for example. Business consultants, not as much. She is good at what she does but does not like work in general. She likes the high stakes part of consulting but not the minute details.

Great sex does obscure other issues, in this way I would rather not have to deal with distractions in the decision making process.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> My wife is a Klingon in this aspect. There is one way for anything and all other options have to be eradicated. Typical Farawaystan elite. You can liquor her up in a nice Caribbean island and break in the news that Kenny got a full ride to Yale to study political science and she will still freak out.
> 
> She is unhappy because in the USA people generally work for a living and social status is not as important. Not in Farawaystan. There, a doctor is seen as super high status, for example. Business consultants, not as much. She is good at what she does but does not like work in general. She likes the high stakes part of consulting but not the minute details.


Is there a cultural rift that's affecting your relationship, or did I misread that? 



john117 said:


> Great sex does obscure other issues, in this way I would rather not have to deal with distractions in the decision making process.


Seriously, you wouldn't choose a rockin' sex life if you could because it might cause "distractions in the decision making process"??? I think I get it now: those Klingon/Vulcan unions are never a good idea.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Culturally we are very different - I grew up in a European country renowned for its fun things in life and she grew up in one of the expansion -istan countries (Borat is a documentary of sorts )

What I said was that sex should not play into any decision making framework. Let's say I have great sex with my partner but we have financial issues we disagree on. There is absolutely positively no amount, quality, or intensity of sex that would make me overlook a major decision blunder in another area of the family I.e. finances long term, college for the girls, etc.

Small stuff , yes. Our sex life was a lot better when more stuff was added to our already exquisitely landscaped yard . But, she could be Selma Hayek reincarnated for all I know and she could not charm me into, say, putting an in-ground swimming pool. 

Couples often throw everything into the decision making pot without compartmentalizing or prioritizing. Big mistake... They are also often bringing emotions into decision making, another 
BIG mistake.

Good sex may make the decision process easier by ensuring fewer pity arguments but good sex won't transform a blunder into a gem. Ever.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Culturally we are as apart as one could be - but this never manifested itself in years 1-25 of the relationship... Her culture probably tops the list of sexual hang ups per capita. 

A good deal of our issues could well be due to her desire to avenge her culture's native male domineering. She often refuses to understand how one "plays by the rules" and expects things to be handed to her on a platter like they were in Farawaystan a dictator or two ago. Unlike us proletarians that had to walk or take the bus she was limo'd everywhere, and at age 18, as befits the ruling elite, was sent here to study. 

It took me a few hours to get adjusted to American culture (mostly, dude, you call this bread / wine / beer) but she is in year 35 or something and still fighting daemons.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Culturally we are very different - I grew up in a European country renowned for its fun things in life and she grew up in one of the expansion -istan countries (Borat is a documentary of sorts )
> 
> What I said was that sex should not play into any decision making framework. Let's say I have great sex with my partner but we have financial issues we disagree on. There is absolutely positively no amount, quality, or intensity of sex that would make me overlook a major decision blunder in another area of the family I.e. finances long term, college for the girls, etc.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but it's not like life is black and white with "good decisions" listed on one side and "bad decisions" listed on the other. It's all subjective, based on what you value. For example, my husband (who is of the Vulcan persuasion, BTW) might think that my decision to drop a few K on a new mountain bike is a "bad" decision. Well, that's because he sees far more value in self denial when it comes to spending money. He'll justify spending money when it seems like an "investment" (e.g. a bigger house.) Me, I see far more value in maximizing my enjoyment in life. I don't enjoy a big house. I enjoy being in the woods on my bike. The $ I spent on my bike didn't hurt our finances one whit--we are more than solvent, with zero debt. But yet he always stresses over money spent on fun, money that's not a sound financial investment. Damn shame, I say. 

Do we fight over this? Nah. He's getting laid. Gonna get me a nice headlamp this week for some nighttime trail bustin'.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Culturally we are as apart as one could be - but this never manifested itself in years 1-25 of the relationship... Her culture probably tops the list of sexual hang ups per capita.
> 
> A good deal of our issues could well be due to her desire to avenge her culture's native male domineering. She often refuses to understand how one "plays by the rules" and expects things to be handed to her on a platter like they were in Farawaystan a dictator or two ago. Unlike us proletarians that had to walk or take the bus she was limo'd everywhere, and at age 18, as befits the ruling elite, was sent here to study.
> 
> It took me a few hours to get adjusted to American culture (mostly, dude, you call this bread / wine / beer) but she is in year 35 or something and still fighting daemons.


Why would she be okay for 25 years and then suddenly remember she had a cultural ax to grind? 

My brother is married to a woman born in the mid east with similar cultural differences. He gives her whatever she asks for and they seem enchantingly happy. I tease him about it sometimes and he just smiles and says, "Happy wife, happy life."


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> My husband says it wasn't about the sex, either--he wanted the closeness. It has been the most humbling realization of my life that I had the power to affect my husband's happiness so profoundly. I think many wives of HD husbands *do.not.get.this.*


The obstacle a man in a sexless marriage must somehow surmount is that his wife may not believe this even when it's stated outright in plain and simple, black and white, crystal clear unambiguous and unequivocal terms. (I'm not sure if women in sexless marriages face the same hurdle, but would not be surprised.)

It is very, very easy after repeated failures to communicate to chalk this up to a personality defect, but I think Anon Pink is much more accurate when she ascribes it to social conditioning.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Why would she be okay for 25 years and then suddenly remember she had a cultural ax to grind?
> 
> My brother is married to a woman born in the mid east with similar cultural differences. He gives her whatever she asks for and they seem enchantingly happy. I tease him about it sometimes and he just smiles and says, "Happy wife, happy life."


A series of unfortunate (some predictable, some not) happened, that took her from occasionally moody to near full strength BPD in a hurry. From losing her sister to an accident related to EA back home to serious trouble at work with a hostile supervisor to her not dealing well with our teenage daughter to her losing the Great College Battle of 2010....

She basically does not compartmentalize things at all, so everything to her is a big reality show, family, friends (lol), work, fun (lol), etc.we have slowed down the BPD some with strict boundaries but she flares up on occasion. After observing a very high correlation between sex and flare ups within hours or a couple days at most sex became a classic optimization issue, and not worth the effort if it was certain to produce a grand mal BPD episode in a day or two.

From my 30+ years experience being an infinite provider does not work in the long term. We were enchantingly happy for many of those years also but the signs were there. Some people can't be made happy because they simply do not understand what it means to be happy.

If it were not for me she would be back in Farawaystan and either be the elite once again or wait for the ruler-for-life figure to change... I belatedly found out that much of her family is short a few light bulbs off a six pack mentally, so they seem in a perpetual "my big fat Greek wedding meets Friday the 13th" mode...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> The obstacle a man in a sexless marriage must somehow surmount is that his wife may not believe this even when it's stated outright in plain and simple, black and white, crystal clear unambiguous and unequivocal terms. (I'm not sure if women in sexless marriages face the same hurdle, but would not be surprised.)
> 
> It is very, very easy after repeated failures to communicate to chalk this up to a personality defect, but I think Anon Pink is much more accurate when she ascribes it to social conditioning.


My husband and I were talking about this last night. I think part of it is social conditioning, but it's also basic human narcissism, too; in other words, the inability to fully imagine and appreciate an experience different from our own. I was able to bootstrap my way into personal happiness and couldn't imagine why he could not. We were both in the same marriage surrounded by the same issues: why _wouldn't_ our ability to cope be equal? I was very, very frustrated that he couldn't turn his attention elsewhere. 

But I don't have testosterone coursing through my veins, and have no idea what that feels like. He can try to tell me, but it's akin to him trying to describe a color outside of my discernible spectrum. I can hear him talk about the beauty of that color, know that it's his favorite, but I can't really appreciate it for myself. 

I was telling him yesterday about how it feels after I exercise long and hard: I can absolutely feel the endorphins coursing through my veins. I love it; it's a true high for me that lasts a few hours, and I seek it out as much as I can, particularly when I'm stressed or tired. He smiled and said, "That's how I feel when I'm lying next to your naked body, just running my hands on your skin. I can feel a surge of energy, just like you describe." It really floored me. Different hormones make for very different creatures indeed


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Getting It...is it hormones, though? I feel the way your H described when I lay next to my H's body....so basically, I feel like that every day, several times per day.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> A series of unfortunate (some predictable, some not) happened, that took her from occasionally moody to near full strength BPD in a hurry. From losing her sister to an accident related to EA back home to serious trouble at work with a hostile supervisor to her not dealing well with our teenage daughter to her losing the Great College Battle of 2010....
> 
> She basically does not compartmentalize things at all, so everything to her is a big reality show, family, friends (lol), work, fun (lol), etc.we have slowed down the BPD some with strict boundaries but she flares up on occasion. After observing a very high correlation between sex and flare ups within hours or a couple days at most sex became a classic optimization issue, and not worth the effort if it was certain to produce a grand mal BPD episode in a day or two.


So, in your wife's case, sex makes her BPD worse. I know little about BPD, but I can see why you'd avoid something you think worsens it. 



john117 said:


> From my 30+ years experience being an infinite provider does not work in the long term. We were enchantingly happy for many of those years also but the signs were there. Some people can't be made happy because they simply do not understand what it means to be happy.


Being an infinite provider only works if you're being provided for as well. Otherwise, your emotional well will run dry. Happiness is tricky--we're not all wired to garner the same satisfaction from the same things. I wonder if she would describe herself as happy. As I said before, some people seem to thrive on negativity and drama. Maybe for her it's the next best thing to being in her old position in her home culture. 



john117 said:


> If it were not for me she would be back in Farawaystan and either be the elite once again or wait for the ruler-for-life figure to change... I belatedly found out that much of her family is short a few light bulbs off a six pack mentally, so they seem in a perpetual "my big fat Greek wedding meets Friday the 13th" mode...


Why did you stay? Do you intend to stick it out?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting It...is it hormones, though? I feel the way your H described when I lay next to my H's body....so basically, I feel like that every day, several times per day.


I don't know; just gender generalizing, I guess. I'm sure there are varying degrees of hormones between individual women. Your c0cktail is probably different than mine. 

I feel a very pleasurable surge from sex, too, but I don't depend on it for my stability and happiness. I was able to function effectively and with a high degree of satisfaction all those years of not getting it regularly. Not getting it shut my H down pretty effectively; he was struggling for happiness in most facets of his life.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> My husband and I were talking about this last night. I think part of it is social conditioning, but it's also basic human narcissism, too; in other words, the inability to fully imagine and appreciate an experience different from our own. I was able to bootstrap my way into personal happiness and couldn't imagine why he could not. We were both in the same marriage surrounded by the same issues: why _wouldn't_ our ability to cope be equal? I was very, very frustrated that he couldn't turn his attention elsewhere.


I agree, but what I have both experienced and observed, even on this forum at times (Present company excluded ) goes beyond an inability to fully imagine and appreciate an experience different from our own. 

It's one thing to struggle with a radically different way of viewing the world and relating to the people in it. We all fight that battle and most of us honestly try even though we fail from time to time. 

It's quite another thing to to reject an explanation of another perspective out of hand, especially when the explanation comes directly from the individual holding that perspective.

It honestly seems to me that something else is at work here. On the surface, it seems to suggests a belief that the other person is either delusional or fundamentally untruthful when it comes to their own perspective.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I agree, but what I have both experienced and observed, even on this forum at times (Present company excluded ) goes beyond an inability to fully imagine and appreciate an experience different from our own.
> 
> It's one thing to struggle with a radically different way of viewing the world and relating to the people in it. We all fight that battle and most of us honestly try even though we fail from time to time.
> 
> ...


I agree that there is a rage of explanations, and located at one extreme is the sort of pathology you describe.

The difficulty (and danger) is in "diagnosing" your LD partner and basing your own behavior on that diagnosis. For example, if my husband, in his frustration and resentment, had decided that my behavior was based on delusion or fundamental untruthfulness, he might have given up, cheated, moved on, become irreparably bitter--any number of responses that might have ended our marriage. Instead, he continued to try and communicate with me. It's paying off in spades for him now.  

As hard as it is for women to "get it" about what sex means to men, I think there is something similar at play in men's inability to understand this apparent lack of imagination. I know it sounds too dense to be believed, but I kid you not: I really was not getting it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Getting It...Yes, I get that warm glow from sex too, but I meant I get it just from laying next to his naked body, or laying together naked....or kissing....or watching him chop wood....mmmm.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> For example, if my husband, in his frustration and resentment, had decided that my behavior was based on delusion or fundamental untruthfulness, he might have given up, cheated, moved on, become irreparably bitter--any number of responses that might have ended our marriage.


Sorry if I was unclear. The presumption of delusion or untruth would be your judgment of him. It would be an unavoidable corollary if the importance of sex to the emotional bond and the feelings of love and affection that spring from it is clearly explained and that explanation is dismissed as a sophomoric attempt to manipulate you into having sex more often. 





GettingIt said:


> As hard as it is for women to "get it" about what sex means to men, I think there is something similar at play in men's inability to understand this apparent lack of imagination. I know it sounds too dense to be believed, but I kid you not: I really was not getting it.


Perhaps, but rather than just assuming an *inability* to understand (Which actually would be egocentrism) I think (hope) it's probably more accurate (Not to mention charitable) to look for a roadblock that has *gotten in the way* of understanding.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Sorry if I was unclear. The presumption of delusion or untruth would be your judgment of him. It wold be an unavoidable corollary if the importance of sex to the emotional bond and the feelings of love and affection that spring from it is clearly explained and that explanation is dismissed as a sophomoric attempt to manipulate you into having sex more often.


Ah, yes, I see. My husband often complained that he felt "dismissed." What _*I*_ was focused on refusing (his insistence that I make him happy) was not what _*he*_ felt I was rejecting (his plea for sex in order to feel loved and accepted.) 

In other words: He wasn't asking for what I thought he was asking for, and I wasn't dismissing him for what he thought I was dismissing him for. Two ships passing in the night. 




ocotillo said:


> Perhaps, but rather than just assuming an *inability* to understand (Which actually would be egocentrism) I think (hope) it's probably more accurate (Not to mention charitable) to look for a roadblock that has *gotten in the way* of understanding.


Yes, egocentrism is what I was after. Also agree about looking for roadblocks instead of placing blame--and that is what we were ultimately able to do after flailing around miserably for ten years. In the past two months we have both spent a good deal of time unraveling the misunderstandings, missed opportunities, and miscommunications that led us down that path. We find it at regrettable, baffling, maddening and, sometimes, utterly hilarious.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have lived away from home since 17 and consider myself emotionally hardened to really not worry about being loved or accepted. No kidding. I am a very successful professional that has survived being born in the wrong side of the tracks, arrived in Ellis Island with $10, the whole hard working immigrant schtick. I accomplished what I set out to accomplish, career, kids, material wealth, and so on. Among all, I accomplished not growing up (maturing) myself...

Sex to me is the icing on the cake. When the wife rejected I got angry not because of the outcome, but because of her thought process that sex is irrelevant. Took me a while to figure out that constant rejection was a way to get back at me for being close to my children, or vice versa, to use my children to justify rejection by starting endless arguments about them. The older especially.

Ultimately her strategy backfired, and my older daughter's experiences with her mother became an essay that won her a spectacular scholarship at her university... In the last couple of years my wife has tried - and largely succeeded - in rebuilding her relationship with our older daughter. So she is not totally off the deep end. Years of therapy later, interestingly enough, older daughter is fine, a magna cum laude scholar, and a normal 20 year old. Our younger one is also "normal". Both girls regret losing a few years of adolescence (from 10 to 20 in a hurry) but do not hold any grudges towards mom...

So, maybe emotional needs are over-rated after all


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> I have lived away from home since 17 and consider myself emotionally hardened to really not worry about being loved or accepted.
> 
> Sex to me is the icing on the cake. When the wife rejected I got angry not because of the outcome, but because of her thought process that sex is irrelevant.
> 
> So, maybe emotional needs are over-rated after all


Do you think your attitude towards emotion is "baggage" that you have brought to the relationship? If my husband felt like he didn't need my emotional support (love, acceptance, etc.) I'd feel rejected, I think, in a way similar to how HD spouses feel when their partners tell them they could live without sex. Could it be that your wife is seeking to feel emotionally relevant through her social standing, job, material possessions, etc? 

In your case, it sounds like you are saying that sex is not necessary to your happiness and feelings of well being in the way that so many men on TAL have expressed that it is. They have expressed that sex is how they feel loved, needed, and emotionally connected to their spouses and that it is tied into their feelings of self-worth. These are things you say you "don't worry about." What is it that you DO get from sex? It it just physical for you? You call it "icing on the cake," yet say it angers you that your wife dismisses it as "irrelevant." Sounds like neither one of you believe sexual intimacy is needed to be happy. Yet neither or you seem very happy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can't have cake without the icing. 

To me, sex is a positive feedback signal that tells me things are where they need to be. Back in the good days it was actually "important" in the grand scheme of things. We would have some awesome alcohol and dinner, listen to music or plan our next trip or what not, and things were cool. As I said, icing. I really do not need validation from others on any subject with few exceptions. When daughter #1 started showing exceptional talent at 8th grade I helped develop her skills and steered her to the right choice. Her success years later was validation enough of my foresight. That would be about all the validation I need. 

Regarding physical intimacy, well, it feels great to wake up at 11 am on a Sunday after hours of fun, the scent of us on the sheets, the works. It is great. Or the anticipation. But really, I have not gotten to the point of continuously needing to be told I am loved etc etc. I am not materialistic, do not care for power plays at work, etc.

I guess I am very good at compartmentalizing things. A must in this crazy world. Growing up poor I was always concerned how other people's opinion impacted my parents. I mean, dude, you are not bothered fighting WW2 for 4 years or living in a tent for another 4 during reconstruction and you worry about what Aunt Josephine said about such and such? The heck with it. 

Even this situation reminds me of a problem to be solved and not an immediate issue. Sure, it impacts me, but it is not going to be any easier to deal with if I freak out every other night demanding love and what not.

Good point about emotional relevance thru job, status, and emotions for her. I would not feel any different about myself if I was a Walmart greeter living in a cardboard box... As Popeye said, "I yam who I yam"... But she has the awesome job, the European sports wagon, the mansion, etc. Why the constant insecurity?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The funny part that kills me with her is the lack of understanding. Or lack of interest in understanding.

At work we are a small tight knit group of researchers that have worked together for years. We are literally in a mind melt together. I am like that with my kids (much to their dismay). 

But not with my wife. I can read her fine and predict her actions easily. But I am quite distraught she can't read me like this... And I'm not that difficult to read, come to think of it.

One fun activity we play with the kids is called "when mommy calls". I take them to all classes, errands, etc and if we run even 5-10 minutes late she calls (not like we drive off into the lake or something) so the game is how many minutes late before she calls. We have our own iPhone emoji language symbols for her, her family, her habits and so on so on... Hilarious.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> You can't have cake without the icing.


Well, then it's not really icing. It's eggs or sugar or oil. Because, yes, you CAN have cake without icing. 



john117 said:


> To me, sex is a positive feedback signal that tells me things are where they need to be. Back in the good days it was actually "important" in the grand scheme of things. We would have some awesome alcohol and dinner, listen to music or plan our next trip or what not, and things were cool. As I said, icing. I really do not need validation from others on any subject with few exceptions. When daughter #1 started showing exceptional talent at 8th grade I helped develop her skills and steered her to the right choice. Her success years later was validation enough of my foresight. That would be about all the validation I need.


I don't really get this comparison. Emotional validation in marriage isn't about being right about something. It's not some sort of personal achievement. It's a selfless give and take that results in feeling like you are half of this awesome thing that makes everything else you do better or easier or more fulfilling. 



john117 said:


> Regarding physical intimacy, well, it feels great to wake up at 11 am on a Sunday after hours of fun, the scent of us on the sheets, the works. It is great. Or the anticipation. But really, I have not gotten to the point of continuously needing to be told I am loved etc etc. I am not materialistic, do not care for power plays at work, etc.


Again, I think emotional validation in marriage is not the same as validation in other areas of your life. I don't think needing/wanting to have validation from your marriage correlates to needing/wanting it at work, as a parent, from your social peers, etc. Wanting to feel loved by your spouse certainly does not make your somehow weak or needy, and the ability to live without it develops through pain and loss, not strength of character and will. 



john117 said:


> I guess I am very good at compartmentalizing things. A must in this crazy world. Growing up poor I was always concerned how other people's opinion impacted my parents. I mean, dude, you are not bothered fighting WW2 for 4 years or living in a tent for another 4 during reconstruction and you worry about what Aunt Josephine said about such and such? The heck with it.
> 
> Even this situation reminds me of a problem to be solved and not an immediate issue. Sure, it impacts me, but it is not going to be any easier to deal with if I freak out every other night demanding love and what not.
> 
> Good point about emotional relevance thru job, status, and emotions for her. I would not feel any different about myself if I was a Walmart greeter living in a cardboard box... As Popeye said, "I yam who I yam"... But she has the awesome job, the European sports wagon, the mansion, etc. Why the constant insecurity?


Maybe she is insecure because you treat her like you have her all figured out. She might be far more complex than you are giving her credit for. And she might feel unneeded. You make it clear here that you feel like you don't need her, that you've "moved on" from feeling like the lack of intimacy in your marriage is a problem worth solving. She might feel like you've put her on a shelf, to be thought about little and dealt with reflexively.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> The funny part that kills me with her is the lack of understanding. Or lack of interest in understanding.
> 
> At work we are a small tight knit group of researchers that have worked together for years. We are literally in a mind melt together. I am like that with my kids (much to their dismay).
> 
> ...


Well, I won't pretend that I have an iota of understanding of what it's like to be married to someone with BPD. But it sounds like you dismiss her out of hand. SHE might think all your banter about "understanding" things is just as silly as you find emotional needs. SHE might wonder why you don't just go with her emotional flow and forget trying to figure it out. SHE might feel like she has you plenty figured out. *Shrug* Just playing devils advocate here, I guess. 

Does your wife know about how you and your children make a game out of her habits, her family, etc? It sounds very . . . disrespectful and isolating. Do your children every defend her? I mean, if she is really mentally ill, why make fun of her?

Not trying to bust you balls--as I said, your marriage sounds like it's been very strained by your wife's BPD. You do sound very proud of many of your accomplishments, and it's always good to feel positively about things one has achieved. But still, some things can't be made up for. They are losses, and it's okay to mourn them as such.


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## CreekWalker (May 31, 2013)

My husband is LD. And I am the initiator. Sometimes to the point of embarrassing myself by coming straight out and asking if we can make love...and being turned down or literally given no response. 

I am so depressed about this and another issue...that I have unplugged for one week. I have not touched him, tried to kiss him, said "I love you" or hugged him. I slept on the sofa. I didn't give a hug and kiss goodbye (which I never ever forget because it's the only physical attention I get). I feel like I need to stop doing things that make me hopeful that he'll have passion or want me. I can't take the rejection anymore. I'm lucky if I get even a quickie once every 4-8 weeks. And it's rote. With his eyes shut. There is no passion left in him. His T is fine. He doesn't have ED. He says he doesn't know why he doesn't want sex anymore...but to me it's about intimacy AND sex. 

We had a "discussion" yesterday. He feels I am trying to manipulate him with this behavior. I'm not. I just give up. Mostly to protect my broken heart. But not to motivate him in any way, or try to get him to do anything. He has not tried to, he just stopped replying "love you too." 

I think that this is the beginning of the end of my marriage. I need to be more than this to a man.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Fair points.

But, point about me and my kids' private jokes is a coping mechanism, without which my girls would have spent years in therapy. I mean, what rational explanation do you give a college age kid away from home when her mom watches some unfortunate thing happening to an unfortunate coed away from home ON LIFETIME MOVIE NETWORK and immediately and frantically calls her daughter to make sure she does not engage in such behaviors? Incidentally, the three of us have clownish behavior beyond belief in general - not just towards certain individuals . I could give more somber examples of off the wall behavior that we deal with daily but they're beyond the scope of this discussion.

Incidentally, I come from a long streak family of funny people, like, comedian class funny... Older girl is semi-afflicted and acts serious once in a while but the younger one is brutal... Contrast this to wife's family, they give dour a new meaning.

Likewise, I do not mind offering a listening shoulder and listening to her issues, pity or not, but not if it is done 24/7. It feels like watching the Kardashians somehow play in your head. It is an unreal feeling to go to her company's numerous social functions and it is like, dude, I know who just got divorced, whose son flunked out of college, and who asked my wife out to lunch thinking she is single (no wedding ring)... 

The best thing we can do for her is to provide a safe and comfortable environment for her without much conflict. She often lives in he own little world and we in ours, typical for her situation. We take far more interest in her life than she does in ours and sacrifice a ton more than she ever did for us. What do you tell two girls that went from 12 straight to 30, completely missing adolescence?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I don't really get this comparison. Emotional validation in marriage isn't about being right about something. It's not some sort of personal achievement. It's a selfless give and take that results in feeling like you are half of this awesome thing that makes everything else you do better or easier or more fulfilling.


Except when it is all give and no take. 



> Again, I think emotional validation in marriage is not the same as validation in other areas of your life. I don't think needing/wanting to have validation from your marriage correlates to needing/wanting it at work, as a parent, from your social peers, etc. Wanting to feel loved by your spouse certainly does not make your somehow weak or needy, and the ability to live without it develops through pain and loss, not strength of character and will.


As luck would have it, pain and loss also may result in building strength of character and willpower. 

Validation is good if you need it. I know it sounds bad but I learned to live without validation, especially the marital type. I know what it feels like, I'm certainly not blind to the affection other people get from their spouse, but I think of not having much marital validation as a physical or emotional challenge I have overcome. It does bother me but I do not let the lack of validation impact me long term... 



> Maybe she is insecure because you treat her like you have her all figured out. She might be far more complex than you are giving her credit for. And she might feel unneeded. You make it clear here that you feel like you don't need her, that you've "moved on" from feeling like the lack of intimacy in your marriage is a problem worth solving. She might feel like you've put her on a shelf, to be thought about little and dealt with reflexively.


True, at this time I have far more of a clinician's view of the issue at hand. And true again, I deal with her as quoted. If I did not "move on" I would be condemned to walk the TAM boards along with the rest of the "quarterly plan" team members and being grateful for the chance.

But hey, the issue is larger than sex. Far larger. Do I want to spend the rest of my life being a caregiver? And receive nothing in return? Exactly what kind of an idiot does she think I am? 

I wish I did feel more emotions but at some point you run out. Tonight I spent several hours playing Lean-on-me-John, we have the house to ourselves, and not that I am expecting anything... She'll probably go to bed watching some semi-steamy mom get her kicks on the Lifetime Movie Network without wondering what's missing in her picture...


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

CreekWalker said:


> My husband is LD. And I am the initiator. Sometimes to the point of embarrassing myself by coming straight out and asking if we can make love...and being turned down or literally given no response.
> 
> I am so depressed about this and another issue...that I have unplugged for one week. I have not touched him, tried to kiss him, said "I love you" or hugged him. I slept on the sofa. I didn't give a hug and kiss goodbye (which I never ever forget because it's the only physical attention I get). I feel like I need to stop doing things that make me hopeful that he'll have passion or want me. I can't take the rejection anymore. I'm lucky if I get even a quickie once every 4-8 weeks. And it's rote. With his eyes shut. There is no passion left in him. His T is fine. He doesn't have ED. He says he doesn't know why he doesn't want sex anymore...but to me it's about intimacy AND sex.
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear this  he sounds selfish, and this is the kind of behavior that gives us LDs a bad name..

I don't understand how come he does not feel guilty? Is he religious?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Fair points.
> 
> But, point about me and my kids' private jokes is a coping mechanism, without which my girls would have spent years in therapy. I mean, what rational explanation do you give a college age kid away from home when her mom watches some unfortunate thing happening to an unfortunate coed away from home ON LIFETIME MOVIE NETWORK and immediately and frantically calls her daughter to make sure she does not engage in such behaviors? Incidentally, the three of us have clownish behavior beyond belief in general - not just towards certain individuals . I could give more somber examples of off the wall behavior that we deal with daily but they're beyond the scope of this discussion.
> 
> ...


I don't know what you tell them. You do teach them to cope, I suppose, but also to not become women who won't seek emotional support and satisfaction from their partners. (Otherwise, we'll see their partners here on TAL.) Therapy, perhaps? I'm sure you do what you can to guide them but, as someone who has been profoundly affected by this as well, perhaps it's not wise that you are their sole emotional influence in this area.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Except when it is all give and no take.


Agree.



john117 said:


> As luck would have it, pain and loss also may result in building strength of character and willpower.


Agree again and, although it's admirable that you've found a way to function, is it wise to ignore the pain and loss?



john117 said:


> Validation is good if you need it. I know it sounds bad but I learned to live without validation, especially the marital type. I know what it feels like, I'm certainly not blind to the affection other people get from their spouse, but I think of not having much marital validation as a physical or emotional challenge I have overcome. It does bother me but I do not let the lack of validation impact me long term...


It seems like it has affected you. Learning to live without it is a huge loss. I don't think you overcome it; you cope. Not that there is anything wrong with that when you feel it is your only choice (vs. leaving the situation), but long term coping probably will take its toll. Do you/have you ever gone to therapy?



john117 said:


> True, at this time I have far more of a clinician's view of the issue at hand. And true again, I deal with her as quoted. If I did not "move on" I would be condemned to walk the TAM boards along with the rest of the "quarterly plan" team members and being grateful for the chance.
> 
> But hey, the issue is larger than sex. Far larger. Do I want to spend the rest of my life being a caregiver? And receive nothing in return? Exactly what kind of an idiot does she think I am?


But you are being a caretaker, after a fashion, if you are snuffing your own emotions and needs in order to deal with her. How long can you live like this? 



john117 said:


> I wish I did feel more emotions but at some point you run out. Tonight I spent several hours playing Lean-on-me-John, we have the house to ourselves, and not that I am expecting anything... She'll probably go to bed watching some semi-steamy mom get her kicks on the Lifetime Movie Network without wondering what's missing in her picture...


I don't think you've run out of emotions; you suppress them and then rationalize it clinically. Attend to them, acknowledge what you have lost. Again--therapy?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Happy 1-10? 3


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Just Wondering said:


> I have to wonder about this?? What is it like for LD people to be successful in putting off sex for a few weeks.
> 
> I wasn't low drive until things changed in my second marriage. At least, I never considered myself that way. These changes included, physical, mental, and emotional changes involving both my wife and me. More on what I have found later. To answer that question specifically, not good at all. I needed the intimacy and it hurt me deeply to not feel that intimacy with the woman I loved. I needed it to have a satisfying sexual experience with the woman I deeply loved. Any sex without that deep connection was "cheap" and unsatisfying to the point that it reminded me of masturbation release. I even felt worse because I felt I was her second choice. It was more damaging to me than not having sex at all.
> 
> ...



I feel very bad for you. I hope you are getting things resolved or you are leaving. Not being able to work on things together will never solve the issues. I am sorry for you. I am sorry for myself, also. I was never like that and most men do not need that type of emotional connection to have sex. I get that. That is within me. It was a huge slow subtle change I didn't even realize was happening. It was so slow it seemed normal. Too bad all her help didn't realize. Too bad they thought I wasn't good enough for her. Yeah, another good reason not to have sex. So, there are many ways to look at this, but it is very important to happiness ont both sides.

This is so emotionally charged for me as well, that I will have to answer any questions at my convenience. It really triggers me because I hate that such a simple thing as just sex, that is so easy to do and what I wanted became something that was major in our breakup. I truly hate it and will work to correct my issues on my own now, unfortunately. Just for the record, I always loved sex. I always wanted it. It was very very important to me. It still is. I do have my boundaries as everyone else does. Mine may be different, but they are what they are. They were met in the beginning of the relationship. My boundaries surrounding sex didn't change much over the course of the marriage. So what or who did change? These are the questions that must be answered to understand. They are as unique as we each are.


Edit: It takes a hell of a lot to kill a man's libido, but it can be done.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I don't know what you tell them. You do teach them to cope, I suppose, but also to not become women who won't seek emotional support and satisfaction from their partners. (Otherwise, we'll see their partners here on TAL.) Therapy, perhaps? I'm sure you do what you can to guide them but, as someone who has been profoundly affected by this as well, perhaps it's not wise that you are their sole emotional influence in this area.


The girls actually have come out of the ordeal pretty well. The older did about 3 years worth of therapy, but really all it was there was validation that she is mostly right and mom wrong. I talked to her therapist quite a few times as part of 'family therapy' and on a couple occasions mom did too. She has been in a long (3 yrs) term relationship that is mostly normal other than her nagging her significant other to do better in school. 

The younger one has always been the golden child - she intimidates people with her brains and I have yet to figure out why her male friends in high school are not interested  both girls are blessed with superb looks (the Eurasian combo in action)...

They are also very close friends and complement each other in many areas. I have been relieved to see them end up this good.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> The girls actually have come out of the ordeal pretty well. The older did about 3 years worth of therapy, but really all it was there was validation that she is mostly right and mom wrong. I talked to her therapist quite a few times as part of 'family therapy' and on a couple occasions mom did too. She has been in a long (3 yrs) term relationship that is mostly normal other than her nagging her significant other to do better in school.
> 
> The younger one has always been the golden child - she intimidates people with her brains and I have yet to figure out why her male friends in high school are not interested  both girls are blessed with superb looks (the Eurasian combo in action)...
> 
> They are also very close friends and complement each other in many areas. I have been relieved to see them end up this good.


Nothing like the bond between sisters.  Your love and pride really show in your posts; I'm glad they are getting on well in life. Take care of yourself, and much peace to you.


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