# Porn / Erotic Literature



## Lone Ranger (Apr 15, 2012)

For the past few months I have been trying to get my wife to understand that I have been feeling pretty undesired sexually. I have taken a lot of the advice given to me from various users on here. I am still pretty much no where with it all.

However, I would like some opinions on the following:

My wife has recently worked up a bit of a furor about getting hold of a copy of "50 shades of grey". I am sure some of you have heard all the hype over this particular book. For those who have not - it is an erotic book.

This is actually really bugging me. My wife shows absolutely no desire for me, never initiates, turns me down constantly and when we do finally do it, it feels like duty sex without any passion.

Not to mention that my wife also hates porn. To me erotic books are as much an equal to porn as anything. Men tend to be more visceral and visual where as women react to the emotional side of erotic novels. Pick your poison.

I personally have nothing against either so long as its used in a healthy way inside a healthy relationship.

But this is making me quite annoyed that she would rather get her kicks from a book than from me.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Perhaps she may be getting it to jump start her desire to initiate with you? If it's really the novel she is getting her kicks from... well to be honest... I've read better erotica stories... but anyway.. i do understand how you could get annoyed. Have you suggested she read it to you? Has she ever watched porn with you?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

It's not really an erotic book..... it's a really lame try at an erotic book. 

Maybe find some sexy erotic literature and READ it to her... by candle light.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

50 shades of gray is to the erotica world what twilight is to the vampire world... imo that is...


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## Lone Ranger (Apr 15, 2012)

I must admit that the idea that the book may jump start something else has crossed my mind, although I think it would feel empty knowing that it wasn't my doing. It just doesn't feel genuine.

I also can not immagine I would get a whole lot out of reading them with / getting them read to me by my wife. Not really my cup of tea.

Phone is about to go dead on me so I will reply in the morning (it is midnight here in the UK)


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

okie dokie


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Gaia said:


> 50 shades of gray is to the erotica world what twilight is to the vampire world... imo that is...


An apt comparison, given that it began as Twilight fanfic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RCblk (Jun 28, 2012)

50 shades is a good Romance novel, but it is far from Erotica !!! its Mush the stuff that us women need to kick start, and initiate. I don't agree with Porn and Erotica Novels being the same poison.


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## zeta (Jun 14, 2012)

That book is hot for us common non-porn watching moms. You should attack her when she's reading it. She will love it...edited to say you take control of her like the guy in the book does.


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## Lone Ranger (Apr 15, 2012)

The choice of book, whether heavy or light erotica, has little bearing on why it bothers me. 

What bothers me is that it is taking something external for her to (possibly) get in the mood. 

I get hot because / for my wife. I don't need to read a sexy book, watch a sexy film or notice some random well built lady on my way home from work, to want to have sex with my wife.

I have been laying the pipework and putting the man hours in for months now. I have been bending over backwards to take as much work off my wifes hands as possible. 

I am considering stepping up my game. I have tried the nice guy approach. I am still in a sexless marriage, except as a bonus prize I get to roleplay as a slave and be worn out all the time.

I don't watch porn but perhaps I should start and leave the door wide open for my wife to hear? This would be especially effective when done at the same time she reads that damn book! Should get the point across.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

Lone Ranger said:


> What bothers me is that it is taking something external for her to (possibly) get in the mood.


This book is unbelievably popular right now. It's possible that she's reacting to nothing more than media buzz and hype, and wants to see what it's all about. It's also possible that she is feeling like she's in a rut and this book has piqued her interest because it explores new ideas, but it also explores a relationship between two people (even if it is fictional). 

IMHO cut her a little slack. If she's feeling a little bored with the same routine and a book helps re-light the flame, then go with it. In addition to the opportunity for sex, which is an opportunity to reconnect, there's always pillow talk and the afterglow in which to open up communication.


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## J.R.Jefferis (Jun 27, 2012)

Instead of being jealous of the competition this book is giving you, why don't you ask if you can read sections with her? Maybe this will arouse both of you and spice things up.

JR


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Maybe stop being a 'slave' and taking work off her plate? If you're doing something and you're not getting what you want, why keep doing it? As long as you're being fair with the workload, that's all that matters. Let her handle her 50%.

Frankly, it sounds like you need to sit her down, explain how you see things, offer her a chance to explain where she's coming from, and then discuss how you view a healthy sex life as a key to a healthy relationship. Explain why it is, and if you want, reference some material for her to support your position. It's not exactly rocket science that men (in general) need sex in a relationship to be happy.

After your talk, don't talk about it again for a couple of months. Keep trying to initiate and all of the regular things you do, but if there is no change after a few months, it's time to have another, more serious sitdown discussion and perhaps to lay out some form of an ultimatum (such as divorce or whatever you feel is something you are willing to follow through on) if things don't improve.

Doing more and more chores around the house isn't going to get you more sex in most cases. It just gives her more time to read 50 shades.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Tell her you're going to look at porn while she reads it. 

alternatively, do what kingsfan says


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## cub!chy (May 7, 2012)

I didn’t know anything about the books, other than a few words on CNN. I then heard about it and the rave on another site. My wife isn’t against porn, but she won’t watch it casually, whatever that means. She loved the vampire books, so I bought her all 3 books from amazon. It’s the best thing I did. She has opened up a-lot about herself, her past and some of her hidden desires. We went from every other day to daily, often twice a day, and not vanilla, but great sex. I wouldn’t be insecure, or ticked at her, when she is done reading; she will be hot and either will masturbate or look for you. Its win, win for you. My wife would drag me to bed, or come up and tell me about the story, pretend to care, be interested and enjoy. Some of the stuff is a bit warped, for some tastes, but whatever works. She killed the first 2 books in a week each and is almost don’t with the 3rd. I am researching to see what kind of erotic material I get her next, I will keep this going for as long as possible.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Another something to help keep her going: Literotica.com
..there are some HOT stories there that she'll love~ hell, you'll love them.
Find some & share them with her..there are plenty to keep her going for a long while!! 
Enjoy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

While I've still never finished the first book, there's Anne Rice's "Sleeping Beauty" trilogy, written under the pen name A.N. Roquelaure (which translates roughly to "Anne with a cloak" or "Anne in disguise.")
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Lone Ranger said:


> I must admit that the idea that the book may jump start something else has crossed my mind, although I think it would feel empty knowing that it wasn't my doing. It just doesn't feel genuine.
> 
> I also can not immagine I would get a whole lot out of reading them with / getting them read to me by my wife. Not really my cup of tea.
> 
> Phone is about to go dead on me so I will reply in the morning (it is midnight here in the UK)


I don`t know man, one of he hottest things I ever did was read Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty Series to my girlfriend (years ago).

The story wasn`t my cup of tea but every night I read I scored well.

I read those novels reeaaaaallllyyyy slowwwwwlllllyyyy.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

There seems to be just a weeee bit of hypocrisy going on around here...



> For the past few months I have been trying to get my husband to understand that I have been feeling pretty undesired sexually. I have taken a lot of the advice given to me from various users on here. I am still pretty much no where with it all.
> 
> However, I would like some opinions on the following:
> 
> ...


...if the OP was a woman complaining that her husbands porn habit was messing with her self-esteem and sex life the poor bastard would have been shredded by now.

LMAO


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Tacoma, I REALLY wish I could "like" that last post from my phone. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Tacoma, I REALLY wish I could "like" that last post from my phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I know, this poor guy isn`t getting any help with his problem.

What he`s getting is recommendations for better erotica.
:rofl:

can you imagine a porn thread like that?

OP: My husband won`t stop surfing Blacks on Blondes

Replies : OH honey get him to surf Two Girls One Cup instead.
What is wrong with him?

:rofl:


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Yep...never gonna happen.

But it'd be cool if it did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Tacoma utterly nailed this, especially with his point that this guy needs help, and instead he winds up with a discussion of light vs heavy erotica and reading recommendations.

Lone, I think I understand exactly where you're coming from, and although this is definitely not a one-size-fits-all solution, I can tell you what seems to be working for me:

1) Stop being a plowhorse. Plowhorses aren't sexy, and you can see that it's not working.

2) Get a life outside the marriage. Friends, hobbies, events, sports, whatever you may be interested in or at least interested in trying out, plunge into it. 

3) This is much easier said than done, but lose the anger and resentment. That sort of thing poisons you, not her. She could probably care less at this point. She is what she is, and you're not going to change her, she can only change herself. Or not.

4) And because she can either choose to change or not, and it's not something you have control over, let go of the outcome. Your marriage will either work or it won't, and you have to be okay with either outcome. You can handle any result, and you're not going to let it effect your happiness, which you are pursuing through point #2 and not through any validation or lack thereof from your wife.

I have noticed that once I detached the emotional hose, lost the anger, and focused on my own happiness, that my wife has slowly started to come around. It's a work in progress, and I don't know how it'll turn out, but I know I can handle whatever happens.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

First off- I do apologize for responding to only the poster before me as an add on & not addressing the OP directly. 

Along with what GTDad says, also take into consideration that she personally may just be feeling lackluster in the desirability dept. & it very well may have little to do with you, LR. 

Although it would be ideal if it was you that re-sparked her interest, a little reading may do just the trick..sometimes women just need to be reminded that we are missing out, from an objective POV..(a good read,) rather than have someone try to influence us into something.

I also agree that watching people doing the nasty as opposed to reading a story about it are different...porn makes me feel a little off & dare I say it- ashamed after I watch it, although during I'm enjoying it. Because of this, I can see why your W is not into porn & may prefer a more tame version of stimulation, being the book.

From a woman's perspective, I think if she read it, it will get her imagination flowing & you BOTH may benefit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

> Not to mention that my wife also hates porn. To me erotic books are as much an equal to porn as anything.


*Sexually explict books are pornography* 

There is no equivocation here.

For the 10,000,000,000 time (Okay, slight exaggeration) the primary meaning of the word, 'Pornography' is a *sexually explict story * 

It is a fusion of the Greek words, πορνή (Prostitute) and γραφος (Writing) and literally meant "Writings of prostitutes."


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## Lone Ranger (Apr 15, 2012)

Thank you Tacoma for that. I felt it would be out of place if I had said something similar but as another poster put, you hit the nail on the head.

I understand that letting go of resentment would definately be healthier for my marriage on the whole. Easier said than done though. I think I have let go and gotten over it then suddenly something else comes alobg and just solidifies the whole thing.

An example of this; I had the morning off work last Thursday, so I jumped at the chance to accompany my Wife and 10 month old son to the baby group they go to. It was an amazing morning, I enjoyed seeing my son socialise with other babies. That was until the mothers got talking about this book. My wife made the comment "it looks great for desperate housewives" 

Yeah, that one stung. What has she got to be desperate about? She isn't evenbloody interested! We are a young couple, I am 24 and my wife is 25, this shouldn't even be a problem.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Have you sat her down and spoken to her about how it makes you feel?

Cooly calmly and as unemotionally as possible?

Ask her how she`d feel if you were doing the same thing.


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## Lone Ranger (Apr 15, 2012)

Yep I have tried that, twice. My wife apologises and says she understands why I would feel like that, says she will make more of an effort etc etc. And she does... For about 2 weeks.

This is why I have considered upping my game recently. The nicely nicely approach isn't working. 

In all other aspects my Wife is absolutely amazing. I couldn't ask for a better motger to our child.


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

I feel that anything your wife is doing even remotely related to sex is a step in the right direction. I, too, have similar issues as the OP and can't get my wife to enjoy sex on a regular basis. Once or twice a month, and the rest is annoying her to help out getting me off in other ways. And the sex is always predictable, but I am far from complaining because it's better than nothing. 

I have tried to do things to spice stuff up and have been met with either rejection or a delayed negative reaction just to get it over with. 

So I bought her the first "50 Shades" book this week and am still waiting for her to open it. Unknown what the result will be but it's worth the $15 gamble. 

Don't knock it that your wife bought it herself and is reading it. Hopefully it will get to her in a good way for the both of you.


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## runningman1 (May 7, 2012)

My wife has read this - or is nearly finished it anyway

The other night in bed as we were kissing and cuddling she whispered "I want you to tie me up and gag me" I could have exploded with excitement !

The book puts ideas in place - well it did for her !!


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## chrissyl0ve (Jul 14, 2012)

I have to say I really enjoyed 50 shades of grey - all 3 books - and continue to read them again. Something so exciting about Christian - he is so in control and I love to fantasize about someone like him. The problem is my husband could never play that dominant role like that. He is way too nice and don't get me wrong, I love him, but there is a part of me that thinks about the other side a lot. I think a husband needs to just take control sometimes and F there wife good and hard and not ask for sex. We don't have sex as often as he would like and I think it's because I want maybe more kinky sex than he does? I've told him I like when he pulls my hair or holds my wrists and he does it but then just let's go and it isn't that exciting. Sex is really good when I'm drunk because I will tell him exactly what I want but see that is the problem - Christian Grey from the book would already know what I want.


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## 44girlfromthesouth (Jul 13, 2012)

LR, I don't know how long your wife has been this way but there is something you mentioned in one of your posts that made me want to remind you of something. You said you have a 10 month old child? I remember all too well what I went thru after I had a baby. I feel sure I was depressed for a year. And NOBODY had a clue. I felt I had lost my identity. I was only a wife and a mother but no longer me. I had no desire for sex. I did not feel attractive or sexy. And when my husband tried to tell me otherwise I didn't feel like he meant it. I looked at myself in the mirror and I didn't like what I saw. My hormones, of course, were all jacked up and I just didn't know which way was up anymore. I loved being a mom but no longer felt desirable. So.....fast forward 9 years. I have felt like I was lacking all this time. My H and I have sex once every week or two. He is crazy attractive but I have just had different ideas about sex. Maybe I felt like I was a "good girl" and couldn't get wild and crazy. Or maybe I thought only "Bad girls" got to have wild and crazy sex. I don't know but I just haven't had the desire to be more than plain ole boring me. It has caused problems with us. He wants it much more but I haven't been able to break out of this rut. I think soo many women are in this rut. Work, kids, school, bills, cleaning...good Lord the list goes on and on. Women are emotional creatures. We think too much sometimes. It is hard to just up and change that. I have always considered myself as someone that was against porn. HOWEVER, let me just say that with all the hype of "50 Shades" I decided to get it and see what it was all about. Mercy... This girl from the South has never read anything like this before and it has lit a fire in me. I read all 3 books in like 2 weeks. It has opened my eyes to a new world. Don't get me wrong, I don't need my H to dominate me or punish me. BUT the whole idea that sex could be this much fun, done this often, and with the man that I love has given me new hope. I don't sit around and daydream that I have Christian Grey. But I do sit around and daydream about ways that I could blow my H's mind. I now send him texts and emails giving him ideas about what I would like to do that night. So even though I am reading about this fictional relationship....I have just carried it over to my real relationship. We have a long way to go but this book really opened my eyes to some new ideas. Please try to communication with your W. And not just today and then wait a month to talk again. Talk to her today and then tomorrow and then the next day. You doing things around the house may not be her love language. She may NEED you to make time just for her, take her on a date or just hug or kiss her in the middle of the day and tell her how beautiful or sexy she is. Let her get out of the house by herself for a while too. I never could get out by myself and really needed that. Time by myself made me a better mom and better wife. During those "2 weeks" that you said she would be better after you talked, take advantage of that time to ease into conversations about your sex life. You can tell if its the right time to start that conversation, when she won't be offended or upset. Don't give up on her. I think it is so awesome that you are already trying to do everything you know to do to help her. We never know if it will all work out in the end....but if it does...it will be soo worth it. I'm not the smartest girl on the block but I was just touched by how much you are trying and wanted to give you another view to think about. Good luck...


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

"@OMGFactsSex: 43% of women say the book “Fifty Shades of Grey” made their sex lives seem routine and boring by comparison."

"@OMGFactsSex: 44% of women prefer reading about sex versus actually HAVING sex."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Three pages in, and I see absolutely none of the venomous vitriol thrown at women and their literary erotica that is typically lobbied at men who have the audacity to enjoy visual erotica. 

Similar situation when a man is strung up for regular masturbation, while women are applauded for finding the perfect vibrator.

Typical TAM.

:rofl:


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

While overall there some hypocracy here...to the OPs request:

1) It is concievable that 50 shades may be a good warm up for your wife rather than competing with you. Try to turn it into a positive if possible. I find my wife is not as aroused as often as i would like however, in the absence of sickeness or exhaustion is in a state of "arousable" most of the time. If i kiss her or if there is a trigger (visual or from 50 shades) i can capitalize...LOL 

2) I have found that one of the appealing things about christian (or whatever the main male charactor is that he is assertive and "tells his women what to do", takes charge etc. this is something my wife has indicated is a turn on. She has responded well to some "commands" 

3) If your wife has a 10 mo old this could be a bigger cause then anything else. If you are failing to recognize this (despite your willingness to "pitch in") she could be aptly regarding your actions as transparent attempts to get points to "get some" not that i blame you. 

4) you mention you would be somehow slighted if she got arroused from something "other then you" you indicate it would not seem "genuine". Personally i am confident in myself and my wife's love for me. If after being together for 13 years she wanted to fantasize about another charter in a book, the visual she got or other type of external stimuli ei vibrator, hunky men in bathing suits..who cares. I mean as long as she is coming to me once aroused who am i to complain. Now if she is getting herself off in the place of being with you then that is a different story. 

All i can say is take an interest, read it with her. Maybe you will find out some things that turn her on (god forbid).


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

To the OP, put your man pride aside and look at the big picture. If something - anything but cheating, of course - gets your wife in the mood to have sex with you, take it. Especially if you were having less sex than you desired before ( generally speaking). 

My wife is finishing up the trilogy now and has downplayed it's effect on her libido, but the change (along with other attempts at raising her libido) is apparent and I am reaping the benefits. 

I bought her all three books and new toys and we've been banging like we did 10 years ago. It would have turned me on if she suggested any of this, so use that to your advantage.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Three pages in, and I see absolutely none of the venomous vitriol thrown at women and their literary erotica that is typically lobbied at men who have the audacity to enjoy visual erotica.
> 
> Similar situation when a man is strung up for regular masturbation, while women are applauded for finding the perfect vibrator.
> 
> ...


I know this is an old thread but allow me to explain my thoughts. Words of fiction are just that, fiction. It's just fantasy. Words on a page written from the mind. Porn to me is much different. It involves real people. People who most of the time have been abused/raped/addicted to drugs/molested/etc. They have few options and turn to this "career". The abuse continues only this time they get a few bucks for it. To me, there is a huge difference between the two. One is purely fiction that involves no real people whatsoever and the other involves very real people that are having their abuse furthered. When I hear the comparison, I just shake my head. That's like saying crime novels vs. actual crime are the same. They are not.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

50shades is a disgrace to us fellow erotica writers imo. Try literotica dot com ... even the amatures are better than that drivel.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

chrissyl0ve said:


> I have to say I really enjoyed 50 shades of grey - all 3 books - and continue to read them again. Something so exciting about Christian - he is so in control and I love to fantasize about someone like him.


Me too!!
The book turns me on immensely and I love to fantasize about someone like him. I don't have a partner but if I had one, I wouldn't mind him doing some of the things Christian does. 
I don't know why some people don't like it, I think it's a great sex fantasy for couples.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Me too!!
> The book turns me on immensely and I love to fantasize about someone like him. I don't have a partner but if I had one, I wouldn't mind him doing some of the things Christian does.
> I don't know why some people don't like it, I think it's a great sex fantasy for couples.


I dont like the sub par writing and crap writing ruins books for me regardless of genre. Being a writer myself i tend to be very critical of writing styles. Especially hard on myself mostly though but that is typical writer behavior.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I agree that "50 Shades" is extraordinarily poorly written. That would be true whatever its genre. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I know this is an old thread but allow me to explain my thoughts. Words of fiction are just that, fiction. It's just fantasy. Words on a page written from the mind. Porn to me is much different. It involves real people. People who most of the time have been abused/raped/addicted to drugs/molested/etc. They have few options and turn to this "career". The abuse continues only this time they get a few bucks for it. To me, there is a huge difference between the two. One is purely fiction that involves no real people whatsoever and the other involves very real people that are having their abuse furthered. When I hear the comparison, I just shake my head. That's like saying crime novels vs. actual crime are the same. They are not.


Lets please be real; the majority of criticism lobbed at porn here on TAM isn't based in the "I feel so bad for the performers" camp. Most of the anger comes from women, and most of that anger is about some sort of moral objection to it's titillating effects on men.

In this way it is exactly the same thing as 50 Shades, and the like. A woman is turning to an outside source, other than her husband, for sexual excitement.

How many threads on this board have been from women upset over their husband finding sexual excitement, and pleasure, in means outside of themselves? How many threads stringing men up for enjoying self gratification? There are not enough hours in the day to peel through the many posts dealing with these two topics alone.

Yet here were are in this thread, with a husband who was giving the exact same argument against the literary erotica as most people on this board do the visual, a man crying out for help, and yet the vast majority of the posts are essentially telling him to not only accept it, but actually recommending better versions of the material he finds offensive and detrimental to his marriage.

If a woman came on this board and said that she's been feeling "undesired" by her husband, that her husband has "no desire" for her, "never initiates", "turns [her] down constantly", and when they actually manage to finally have sex, "it feels like duty sex without any passion", but that he's spending copious amounts of time watching porn, the woman would have had endless pages of sympathy, and her husband would have tarred and feathered. No way in the world would ANYBODY have responded that the solution is to just accept it, and then go on to recommend that her husband up his porn game by going to xtube or pornhub.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Lets please be real; the majority of criticism lobbed at porn here on TAM isn't based in the "I feel so bad for the performers" camp. Most of the anger comes from women, and most of that anger is about some sort of moral objection to it's titillating effects on men.
> 
> In this way it is exactly the same thing as 50 Shades, and the like. A woman is turning to an outside source, other than her husband, for sexual excitement.
> 
> ...


My issue with porn is about the performers. Period. I am being VERY real about that. 
If women find it cool and charming then so be it. If their issue is that their husband turned his attention to it, that is between the two of them. I don't care about that. I care about the industry and what it does to people in it. Human beings. I have never wavered from that, either here or in real life. Ever.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

CantePe said:


> 50shades is a disgrace to us fellow erotica writers imo. Try literotica dot com ... even the amatures are better than that drivel.


Lit erotica.com is cool stuff.
I used to like reading the stories! Actually it was a turn on for me because some of the stories sounded so real.
Maybe that's why I find hardcore porn boring.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Lets please be real; the majority of criticism lobbed at porn here on TAM isn't based in the "I feel so bad for the performers" camp. Most of the anger comes from women, and most of that anger is about some sort of moral objection to it's titillating effects on men.
> 
> In this way it is exactly the same thing as 50 Shades, and the like. A woman is turning to an outside source, other than her husband, for sexual excitement.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
Historically, men who masturbate have always been tarred and feathered whilst women were looked upon as " pure and clean."
Long before the first men's magazine was ever printed, dildos existed.
Men who did it were looked upon as perverts, whilst very little was ever mentioned about women.
That double standard with respect to it has always existed.
Women who openly boast that they view porn or masturbate are embraced.
Men who view porn are somehow " cheating." They don't necessarily have to masturbate, the fact that they are viewing another woman's naked body constitutes " cheating."


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I know this is an old thread but allow me to explain my thoughts. Words of fiction are just that, fiction. It's just fantasy. Words on a page written from the mind. Porn to me is much different. It involves real people. People who most of the time have been abused/raped/addicted to drugs/molested/etc. They have few options and turn to this "career". The abuse continues only this time they get a few bucks for it. To me, there is a huge difference between the two. One is purely fiction that involves no real people whatsoever and the other involves very real people that are having their abuse furthered. When I hear the comparison, I just shake my head. That's like saying crime novels vs. actual crime are the same. They are not.


Whilst I understand what you are trying to say here,it is a bad juxtaposition .
You compared written erotica with erotica on film, and then you compared a crime novel with real actual crime.
So basically you are equating erotica on film to real crime.
Exploitation exist in porn , but that does not make it a crime.

Forcing anyone to perform sexual acts against their will is a crime.
Someone who because of circumstance, chooses to engage in sexual acts of their own,free will in exchange for money,is not a victim of any crime.
And on the issue of money, if these same girls who were victims of sexual abuse , who end up in porn were highly paid.
Would that have made porn more acceptable?

Great civilizations are built on exploitation.
A lot of the luxuries we enjoy in the modern world,especially cheap electronics , are affordable because of human exploitation.

These are not simple matters.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My issue with porn is about the performers. Period. I am being VERY real about that.
> If women find it cool and charming then so be it. If their issue is that their husband turned his attention to it, that is between the two of them. I don't care about that. I care about the industry and what it does to people in it. Human beings. I have never wavered from that, either here or in real life. Ever.


Yup, you have made yourself very clear. Which is why I didn't say your issue with porn was the titillation, and sexual straying. I specifically said the majority of TAMers. 

The debate wasn't between you and I. My comments weren't about you. My comments, before we entered into discussion, were about TAM on the whole.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Lets please be real; the majority of criticism lobbed at porn here on TAM isn't based in the "I feel so bad for the performers" camp. Most of the anger comes from women, and most of that anger is about some sort of moral objection to it's titillating effects on men.
> 
> In this way it is exactly the same thing as 50 Shades, and the like. A woman is turning to an outside source, other than her husband, for sexual excitement.
> 
> ...


Thank you.

I love the feedback on TAM, but the double standard on somethings is really appaulling.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I love the feedback on TAM, but the double standard on somethings is really appaulling.


It's downright shameful. The responses given to the OP of this thread were, for the most part, morally criminal. It would never have happened if it were a woman reaching out for the exact same cause.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Me too!!
> I don't know why some people don't like it, I think it's a great sex fantasy for couples.


Well I can't speak for others, but I can tell you why I don't like it. 

Most of us when we read fiction end up mentally assigning faces to the characters. Sometimes, they are the faces of people we know or have known. As I read the book, the face of Christian Grey gradually became the face of a man I used to work for.

He was a first generation disciple of Steve Jobs and like his mentor, he was both arrogant and evil. 

In the early stages of a project, he'd drive the teams to go faster and faster and faster and scream obscenities when they didn't go fast enough. In the latter stages, he'd scream obscenities over the minor and inevitable mistakes that happen under pressure. And mistakes always had to be paid for. Somebody had to be fired. 

Firing people has always upset me. Sometimes people deserve it and sometimes it has to be done, but it always churned my stomach. Firing people was an emotional high for this man. He'd literally whistle the rest of the day. 

He'd strike up a friendly conversation over lunch with some poor sap about an upcoming project. If he was unimpressed, he'd fire the person and sometimes the failure would simply be not having a good idea at moment. Most of us learned that it was a mistake to even ride the elevator with him. 

At the end of a project, he'd write himself a check, sometimes in excess of two million dollars. He'd bundle it with the costs of the project. At the end of the year, he'd explain to the VP's that profits didn't really justify year-end bonus and then drive away in his Bugatti 

His opinion of women was no better than his opinion of men and in that, he was at least consistent. He thought women were only good for what he could use them for. 

And use them he did. He'd crumple them up like dead leaves and blow them away when he was done. Despite this, women were absolutely nuts for him. It was amazing. They fawned on him everywhere he went. I once saw two attractive women walk bang, smack right into one of those frameless glass doors on Rixson pivots that some restaurants have. They were too busy gawking at him. 

Why are many women attracted to the Christian Greys of the world? I don't know. Why are most victims of hybristophilia women? Why do women like vampire stories? What is 'sexy' about a creature with a propensity for attacking and killing young women in a particularly bloody and violent way? 

I don't know the answers to any of this. Psychologists tell us that there is a perversity in the human nature that preserves the genes of people like this because their innate selfishness and callous disregard for others makes them most likely to survive a breakdown in social order.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

CantePe said:


> I dont like the sub par writing and crap writing ruins books for me regardless of genre. Being a writer myself i tend to be very critical of writing styles. Especially hard on myself mostly though but that is typical writer behavior.





jaharthur said:


> I agree that "50 Shades" is extraordinarily poorly written. That would be true whatever its genre. But whatever floats your boat, I guess.


Yeah you could be right.
You view it from a different angle and I understand it.
I can't say anything about the writing style because English is not my first/native language so I din't really put much thought into it.
Being a virgin like Ana was before meeting Grey, would constantly make me wonder how I'd act if I were in the exact same shoes as her. And I was always eager to learn what she'd do next and how she'd react to Grey's temptations.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Well I can't speak for others, but I can tell you why I don't like it.
> 
> Most of us when we read fiction end up mentally assigning faces to the characters. Sometimes, they are the faces of people we know or have known. As I read the book, the face of Christian Grey gradually became the face of a man I used to work for.
> 
> ...


I don't get it either, if it was a man that wrote 50 shades people would have been screaming misogynist.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> *And use them he did. He'd crumple them up like dead leaves and blow them away when he was done. Despite this, women were absolutely nuts for him.* It was amazing. They fawned on him everywhere he went. I once saw two attractive women walk bang, smack right into one of those frameless glass doors on Rixson pivots that some restaurants have. They were too busy gawking at him.
> 
> *Why are many women attracted to the Christian Greys of the world? I don't know. Why are most victims of hybristophilia women?* Why do women like vampire stories? What is 'sexy' about a creature with a propensity for attacking and killing young women in a particularly bloody and violent way?


^^^^^^^^
This right there is the million dollar question that even these women don't have the answer to.
Reminds me of Dr. Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling in the movie sequel Hannibal.
Never trust a woman to tell you what alpha is or what builds sexual attraction in them .
They don't understand it .
It just happens to them.
That's what attracts them to the Christian Grey character.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Women don't necessarily like Ch. Grey but they like men who are not afraid to lead and dominate. 
Although, Grey had _extreme _dominance and there were moments I didn't like him for that.
Leave the playroom aside, in his normal life he enjoyed taking care of her well-being. He treated her with respect, he was always there for her and made sure she had the best. 
Money or career wise is was powerful. 
Adding the ability to make women orgasm in different ways ...

So yeah, it's understandable the jealousy men have towards him.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> So yeah, it's understandable the jealousy men have towards him.


Are you suggesting that real men are jealous toward this fictional character?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Are you suggesting that real men are jealous toward this fictional character?


Are you saying that men of his character/type do not exist?
Because if you think so, then you're wrong.

Real men are not jealous of the fictional character. They are jealous of the character/attitude that many other REAL MEN, in real life ..have, just like him.
Why? Because now their wives might wonder/dream about guys out there who are like him..and yes..there are guys like him. From now on, some wives want to see HIM in their husbands, because these wives (and the husbands)..know that this is more than just a fictional sex story. 
Instead, this is a story that could be applied to an everyday life of a couple, if the husband decides to become like Grey or other REAL MEN who are like him.

Grey could totally be fictional per se and _is _fictional. But this doesn't matter because the story is not something that can't happen in one's everyday life. It could happen to me tomorrow. The story doesn't talk about UFO's and flying people. Talks about real sex, something you can try in your daily life if you wish to satisfy your wife more. If you are not able to do this and start to disdain the character, means you are jealous, not of him (Grey) per se, but for guys like him who exist in real life. 


That's why I said in my previous post, women are not attracted to Grey, they are attracted to men who have Grey's features/characteristics.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Talks about real sex, something you can try in your daily life if you wish to satisfy your wife more. If you are not able to do this and start to disdain the character, means you are jealous, not of him (Grey) per se, but for guys like him who exist in real life.
> 
> 
> That's why I said in my previous post, women are not attracted to Grey, they are attracted to men who have Grey's features/characteristics.


LOL. Oh, my. Not jealous in the slightest. I read all three of the books, just to try to understand the hoo-ha. I persuaded my wife to read the first--she couldn't handle any more than that because she thought it was silly. Grey wouldn't have made it to a first date, much less a second date with her. I guess that's because she's one of those annoying, brainy Ivy League grads. She also thought that the sex became boring because it was the same thing over and over and over.

I don't deny that the Grey kinda guy, and his sex style, would be attractive to some women, but I guarantee you I would never worry about his type satisfying my wife more.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Real men are not jealous of the fictional character.


This singular sentence answers my question to you. Thanks.

I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with what I asked you.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Are you saying that men of his character/type do not exist?
> Because if you think so, then you're wrong.
> 
> Real men are not jealous of the fictional character. They are jealous of the character/attitude that many other REAL MEN, in real life ..have, just like him.
> ...


Women in general might be attracted to that type of man, and that's fine. As a man, I am not jealous in the least (sure, i'd like to have his money...).

My next door neighbour read all three books in about a week. Could not put them down. She STRONGLY recommended them to my fiancee, so she gave them a try.

She got about 2/3rds of the way through book one (and that took about two weeks or more) and has since not touched them. They've been collecting dust on a table. She finds it just dumb that this girl is interested in a sex life with a man who just takes, takes, takes.

Not that I have to worry or be jealous of the REAL Grey's in the world, but I just wouldn't be. I played the game in my marriage to my ex-wife, watching out for all the other guys out there. I'm not playing that game again. If my fiancee was attracted to the Grey's of the world, and she wanted to act on that, go ahead. I won't stop you. It'll hurt for sure, but I'm not going to stand in the way and fight for her. If she can't be satisfied with what she's got at home, I can find someone who is. 

A dad of four boys, all still living at home, I'd love to get my hands on his money. The rest, mehhh, not my thing.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> Are you saying that men of his character/type do not exist?
> Because if you think so, then you're wrong....
> 
> .....the story is not something that can't happen in one's everyday life. It could happen to me tomorrow. The story doesn't talk about UFO's and flying people.


I think we all understand why an intelligent, articulate, confident, strong, successful man would be attractive.

But let's be fair to James here. The Christian Grey character as she fleshes him out over the course of the trilogy is a fatherless son of a crack whôre who was orphaned at four when she took her life in front of him. As a child, he's starved and physically abused by her pimp and as an adolescent, he's sexually abused and dominated by a female pedophile.

His activities in the bedroom may facilely come off as erotic role playing, but the implication is pretty darn clear that there is a darker side to it and his sadistic streak is an outlet and manifestation of his own self-hatred and troubled past. 

Consequently, he's strongly attracted not to women who are anywhere near a match for him in terms of personality, but to a weak, stumbling, inexperienced young virgin lacking in self confidence and therefore easy prey for a man like him. 

Please don't misunderstand. As a fantasy, I do grasp the 'moth to flame' effect at work. There's a scene in Bram Stoker's Dracula where Dracula's three brides are holding Jonathan Harker prisoner. I think most men can acknowledge that there are worse fates that can befall a fictional male character than being chewed on by three beautiful semi-nude women. - LOL 

But there's a world of difference between fantasy and reality and that difference seems to be getting blurred here. These people do exist. I agree. They're called sociopaths. It's *not* pretty in real life.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

I may have to read that book one day. Read a bit from a sample i found online. Doesn't look like a very well written or actually erotic at all. I guess the success is due to pushing the right buttons for women.

Most portuguese women i that i know to have read it found it quite disappointing. American housewives seem to be all over it 

I have to study this situation a bit more to be able to explain this cultural difference.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

costa200 said:


> I may have to read that book one day. Read a bit from a sample i found online. Doesn't look like a very well written or actually erotic at all. I guess the success is due to pushing the right buttons for women.
> 
> *Most portuguese women i that i know to have read it found it quite disappointing. American housewives seem to be all over it
> 
> I have to study this situation a bit more to be able to explain this cultural difference.*


Same down here.
Those women who have either read it or have heard about it can't relate to it.

They find it either boring, or confusing.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> , but to a weak, stumbling, inexperienced young virgin lacking in self confidence and therefore easy prey for a man like him.
> .


True. Ana is a character I don't like for the simple fact that she doesn't know how to say NO. She's got no self respect, no personality and accepts everything that comes her way by Grey.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

costa200 said:


> I may have to read that book one day. Read a bit from a sample i found online. Doesn't look like a very well written or actually erotic at all. I guess the success is due to pushing the right buttons for women.
> 
> Most portuguese women i that i know to have read it found it quite disappointing. *American housewives seem to be all over it*
> 
> I have to study this situation a bit more to be able to explain this cultural difference.


:rofl::rofl:
Not this American housewife. I have no interest in reading it. Maybe one day I will see what all the hype is about. But for now? No thanks.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Maybe the discussion shouldn't focus on "50 Shades." There are many other, well-written erotic novels that would present the same questions posed by the OP.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Maybe the discussion shouldn't focus on "50 Shades." There are many other, well-written erotic novels that would present the same questions posed by the OP.


Maybe... but my response would still be the same... I don't read that nonsense.


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