# Wife unhappy but says she loves me



## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

3 weeks ago my wife told me she is unhappy and she is leaving. We have had issues in the past with me not sharing the load in household duties. I promise to do better and i do for a while. My job is very demanding and i see now that i sometimes make her feel she is not a priority. She says life is too short to be unhappy and she feels i am unhappy and maybe she is the reason for this. I did all the things you are not supposed to ie beg plead cry push. After some good talks she has said she still loves me but needs to have space so she does not end up hating me. I have asked if her leaving is the first step in her mind toward divorce and she say she does not know. She has said she thinks her moving out is necessary for us saving the marriage and that is what she is hoping for. I have told her my feelings that i am committed to this relationship and will work on myself to be the husband and partner she deserves. She says she needs to work on herself as well. At this time she is saving up money and looking for houses to rent. She says its like a broken record and she does not want to live arguing over the same things. She thinks any changes now maybe temorary and cannot live with the hurt anymore. i have been trying to stay positive about the whole situation and be the man she married versus the man that let life get in the way. We speak every night. She has been sleeping on the couch. Our conversations are not about us but how her day went and our kids. I try not to push but sometimes me emotions get the better and i have a mini meltdown. Over the last few evenings things have been going well. She gets ready for bed and i do the same. The last few nights she has asked if i am going to stay out in the living room with her for a while. I do. We talk and she lets me rub her feet and legs. I asked if it is uncomfortable when i say "i love you" and she says yes because it makes her fell like an a hole. I told her instead of words i will use my actions to prove them.
She will more than likely be unable to move out for a few months while saving for everything. I know this is a long rant but im just looking for advice and outside observations. I feel we are making progress but i dont know if its just me being hopefull. I try not to push the issue at hand and have told her i will be ready to talk about things when she is ready. Any advice.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

How old are you two? How long have you been married? How old are the kids? Does she work? How much time have you spent "dating" each other in the past year?

You could also consider individual counseling for yourself... Make sure you're doing your part to contribute to the relationship.

Read up on "walk away wives", and also do some careful consideration on whether there might be some outside influence on her. AKA "another man"... I'm not saying that she's cheating on you, but you do need to think about that possibility.

C


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Pbear is wise to consider an outside influence. Most folks don't just get bored and walk out. You didn't mention any specific thing she is among you to change. Which leads one to think its something on her side of the street.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

I am 32 and she is 33. We have been married for 8 years 9 this coming may. We have two kids 12 and 9. We always have dated through our relationship. Not as much recently with work and the kids. Her main issues with me is that i do not do my share around the house that she is always having to get on me about things. We have had rough times before about this issue and i get better then fall back into a rut. She feels that any change is temporary and she does not want to live life like a broken record. I have been very stressed at work and when around other people i have not been the most pleasant to be around lately. She feels that her actions are making me unhappy. This past summer i was out of town for work for 4 months and only home on the weekends. Returning to town i was competing with another employee for my job and instead of making up for lost time i focused on keeping my job. The past few weeks i have done some soul searching and realize I have made her feel less of a priority than my work. This was never the intention. I felt as a husband and father my role was to provide and i focused on working for the family instead of working on and with the family. I did not ask if there is anyone else buy she has told me that there is not and will not be. I asked if she still loved me and she said of course but she feels if she stays in the same house while we work on things she will end up hating me and that is the last thing she wants.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Do I smell cake?

My ex pulled this EXACT routine on me, right up to the "I cant leave for a few months" and the "I need space."

Turns out she had some greener pastures she had been dreaming about.

Has she used the classic line yet?
"I love you, but I'm not IN love with you."


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

SamuraiJack said:


> Do I smell cake?
> 
> My ex pulled this EXACT routine on me, right up to the "I cant leave for a few months" and the "I need space."
> 
> ...


"I need space" means "I want room to explore the new and exciting relationship with posOM"


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

She has not used this line. I truly believe her when she says there is no one else. She has told me before if there was ever another she would be upfront and just leave. I do see where you are coming from and i am not blind to the possiblilty. My brother went through the same thing emotional needs were not being met and she found someone that filled those needs. I believe in her case she is tired of trying. She has said she has been trying for awhile. About a year and half ago she was at the point of thinking of leaving. We talked and talked. I made promises to help more and focus on her and the kids more. I did but then became lazy in the relationship and now she thinks any improvement would be temporary and she does not want to remain in a cycle over and over. She keeps saying life is too short to be unhappy. She lost a close relative about 2 years ago to cancer at an early age. She took care of her for the last month of life. I believe this has really taken its toll on her and she is still dealing with this grief.

On my part I am trying to be as positive as possible. I am doing the things around the house that she would normally ask me to without her asking. I am working on myself to be a better person. It seems this has been making thing improve as we talk better than we have in a long time. She did ask me once if i wanted this to or expected it because i seem to be doing ok or well (minus an occasional melt down and tears) I told her that i cannot feel sorry for myself and become depressed that will not help us and i am committed to saving this marriage and the only way to do that is to work on myself until she is ready to talk more. After that we hugged and that is when she said i want you to know there is no one else and there will not be. I kind of brokedown and she said "whats wrong what did you do" I said i did nothing its just i cant mentally go there it is too dark of a place. I have also been making her the priority versus answering phone calls from work when i am with her or talking about work when i am with her.


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## SleeplessInTO (Nov 10, 2014)

As a woman, I would also ask if she is a SAHM or unemployed and feels you do not show appreciation for her sacrifices. I wonder if she feels like a glorified maid. I think there might be something underlying her complaint about you not doing chores at home. Could it be that she feels her life starting to stagnate?

I need space too when I feel as if I am stagnating. It could be just the frustration of not having large challenges in life that you can solve for an obvious reward (that an employed husband has and you can see that when he overcomes that challenge, he will be rewarded with something like a praise or promotion or new job). When we can't put a finger to what we want, we say "need space" so we can "explore" but reality is that our commitments don't allow us to explore a lot and take off, so it can lead to exploring other relationships. Just a different perspective that not all "need space" translate into "other relationships".

I do think you should get professional help in this though. Someone who can draw out her root cause of negative feelings?

Good luck!


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

4evernever said:


> She has not used this line. I truly believe her when she says there is no one else. She has told me before if there was ever another she would be upfront and just leave. I do see where you are coming from and i am not blind to the possiblilty. My brother went through the same thing emotional needs were not being met and she found someone that filled those needs. I believe in her case she is tired of trying. She has said she has been trying for awhile. About a year and half ago she was at the point of thinking of leaving. We talked and talked. I made promises to help more and focus on her and the kids more. I did but then became lazy in the relationship and now she thinks any improvement would be temporary and she does not want to remain in a cycle over and over. She keeps saying life is too short to be unhappy. She lost a close relative about 2 years ago to cancer at an early age. She took care of her for the last month of life. I believe this has really taken its toll on her and she is still dealing with this grief.
> 
> On my part I am trying to be as positive as possible. I am doing the things around the house that she would normally ask me to without her asking. I am working on myself to be a better person. It seems this has been making thing improve as we talk better than we have in a long time. She did ask me once if i wanted this to or expected it because i seem to be doing ok or well (minus an occasional melt down and tears) I told her that i cannot feel sorry for myself and become depressed that will not help us and i am committed to saving this marriage and the only way to do that is to work on myself until she is ready to talk more. After that we hugged and that is when she said i want you to know there is no one else and there will not be. I kind of brokedown and she said "whats wrong what did you do" I said i did nothing its just i cant mentally go there it is too dark of a place. I have also been making her the priority versus answering phone calls from work when i am with her or talking about work when i am with her.


She may be one of the 10% who are actually telling the truth. I would prefer it if it was verified.
Can you check the phone logs?

Keep doing what you are doing. Be helpful. 
DONT let her see you cave.

DO NOT beg, whine, try to convince, guilt, yell or try to influence her.

DO work on yourself. 
Be pleasant.
Be patient.
Be calm.
Give her some space as often as you can.

Remember...you are playing this for the long run.
It may take several months of this, but keep up the practice and focus on the 180. Read up on it and take what works best for you.
Even if she leaves and never comes back, working on yourself will ALWAYS pay itself back.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

As for the reason she cannot leave for a few months it is financial. I am the primary income and she is needing to save for first and last months rent, furniture etc. She has been looking at houses close by so the kids are not affected by school and scheduling issues. I have done my snooping. Looking on her phone, facebook etc. and she is not really talking to anybody about this issue. Not even her friends. I did see some texts telling her long time friend "i should probablly tell you i am leaving I am sick of the BS and the constant i will get better it is like a broken record. Again she has no new contacts in her phone or weird messages from unknown people to cause further suspect.
She is pretty blunt when it comes to things like that. We both saw what happened between my brother and his exwife. She has always said how appalled she was that someone could be with someone else while in a relationship, if they are happier with another dont be a coward just be upfront and honest then leave.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

She is not a SAHM. She works a full time job. She helps people in need. She does alot of "housework and cleaning and caring" in her job. What i have noticed over the past few weeks is as i start to contribute and do these things that she would just do or ask me to do, that she is more relaxed and open and happy. For the first week or so i seemed to bring up the situation every other night and try to talk things out. This seemed to push her away and upset her. Even to the point where she said this is what i was afraid of, i dont want to walk on eggshells while we work on us,maybe i should go stay at my sisters. I told her all that I have to say. That i will work on my issues and the way i handle stress outside the home and show you not by promises or words but by my actions. I know this is the only way she could truly believe that i have "seen the light" and i know this will take time to heal. I have told her that i do not want things to go back to the way the where i want them to be better than ever. That we can work through this and be stronger as individuals and as a couple. I then told her that i will not press the subject but will be there when she is ready to talk. Since then i have done what i need to do to be better, i have read and researched. I believe part of my issue may be contributed to Adult ADD. It was brought up as i was younger but i coped and managed and never used medication. When speaking with my brother he mentioned this as he was diagnosed a few years back and that this can contribute to the issues that i have. We have had good nights and conversation since then. One night she was laying on the couch and asked me to sit at the end. When I went to bed i told her goodnight and that i will see you in the morning. She asked will you be here and i told her i will always be here. She then gently held my hand and that was it. Lately when she is ready for bed, i get up and start toward the bedroom and she asks if i will sit out there with her while she falls asleep. I do and i offer to rub her feet which i always did while things where good between us and i realize i have not done that as much lately. In my head my thoughts are hopefull and that if she had no feelings or was not opening up that she would be repulsed or not have anything to do with me. Are my thoughts valid or am i just hopelessly hopefull?


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## SleeplessInTO (Nov 10, 2014)

It sounds like her work involves the same things she does at home. Was that what she wanted to do or did she default into that job at some point? Is there a chance that she associates a no-choices living with you and wants you to appreciate her more? I can't imagine that it is purely about housework.

I am a very honest person, so given your description of her actions, my instinct would be that she still has deep feelings for you but really needs you to show her that you have changed. 

I don't know about her actions being "hopeful". The day my husband asked for divorce and I packed, we sat down for a while and chatted about completely random things. He then asked me for a neck massage that I did often for him and asked to remain the great friends we had always been. I felt hopeful. He said he wanted some space and I was even more hopeful. But after that, he removed his ring, our photos from his office, became harder with me. I suspect his buddies and counselor at work have given him advice on how to end the marriage and I have no control any more on showing him the changes in me because we don't live together. 

I'd say you have a golden opportunity that she can't move out right now. Use this to show her (what Samurai Jack said: no more words and promises or begging about how you will improve - just actions, just calmness, consistency in what you do) that you are changing. You may have to slow down professionally but what is more important to you? Could you make it a routine for certain chores? Maybe take full accountability for it so if you don't do it, she doesn't have to. And can you focus on chores that can be done at a more flexible schedule? Also - start appreciating her visibly. Thank her, notes on the fridge, hugs as you work together (all the things I would love LOL). No need to go overboard with flowers and gifts but consistency of what you do is absolutely important.

Also, I am suspecting that there is an underlying issue here, either loneliness at having to do the chores alone or not feeling fulfilled at work or home - something that is hidden. It would be a good idea to address this while there is time. If she is not fulfilled in her job, this might be a good time to enroll in some educational programs.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Well we are going on 4 weeks now. The last couple of days have been really rough. She had to work christmas morning so i woke up early and made breakfast so we could eat as a family. She really appreciated this and gave me a long hug. She told me when this all started that she did not feel comfortable going to my parents house for christmas dinner so that night she stayed at home by herself. The next day she went to dinner with her sister and some friends. Instead of staying out she decided to bring them home so we could all have fun. The next night she thought we should go out together and have some drinks. I got a babysitter and we went out. We talked about various things but did not talk about us. I have read the 180 also i have read Men are from Mars... I believe one of our biggest issues is lack of communication. This is why it has gotten to this point. She was not communicating how she was feeling and i was complacent. How do i get her to open up and tell me how she is truly feeling. I have taken some steps from the 180. I try not to be needy and pushy when i am down. I do nice things for her but out of love and out of working on the things that i have lacked on. She seems appreciative and happy but still no communication at what really is going on between us. Again last night we sat on the couch together and i rubbed her feet. Just the physical contact is nice and helps me relax. I have read about the plan A as well. From what I gather it says i should make a stand and say i do not want us to separate. That we need to work on this and talk about it until we both decide what is best. Im feeling so lost because i do not know what she is thinking or feeling. What can i do. i have been writing letters to myself in a journal from an outside perspective so i can really see what i am feeling. This helps for awhile then i get back into a bad place and just want to talk to her. I have not brought up the subject for a few weeks now and sitting here in limbo is just killing me. What do i do next. Do i initiate a talk and see if she responds or do i just wait and let this happen. What to do what to do.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

4evernever...

First of all, I'm sorry you're going through this.

May I make a friendly posting suggestion? Please break your posts into paragraphs . It's very tedious to try to read a wall of text!

And I completely agree with Samurai's advice:



SamuraiJack said:


> Keep doing what you are doing. Be helpful.
> DONT let her see you cave.
> 
> DO NOT beg, whine, try to convince, guilt, yell or try to influence her.
> ...


You need to make yourself as attractive to her as possible, in all ways. As you've seen first hand, when you stopped trying to "talk about it" every night she became more open and receptive. Focus on being the best, strongest man you can be. By all means, help her with a reasonable amount of household tasks but DON'T fall into the "Beta Trap" of becoming too domestic.

If you make these changes, there's a good chance she will be drawn to a stronger, more decisive husband; especially when she realizes you will move on with YOUR life too, with or without her. You want to make yourself fun and desirable to be around, so no whining, pleading, begging, professing your undying love, etc. It seems counterintuitive to back off, but smothering her definitely won't work.

The 180 is your best friend right now.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Sorry for the long rants. It just flows out and comes as a big mess.

I am working on the 180 but the no contact part is the hardest. Especially since we are both in the same living in the same house at this moment.

I have read the 50% of what they say and do part. This seems to be the one the hits me hard. She will make small comments every now and then. Just little things that remind me she is still moving out. She even wanted to give me money for the drinks we had Saturday. Is this her way of reminding me or is it her reassuring herself that her mind is made up? Since our lack of meaningful communication is one of the main reasons I see us getting to this point the lack communication now is what i am having the hardest time with.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cover your bases 4e. 
Step #1 is to find out what you're fighting and don't assume she's telling you the whole truth. Maybe she's unhappy but maybe she's fallen for someone else. This could be either and you need to know which one. To cover your bases, you need to get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and put in her car just so you can know one way or another.

Step #2 is to stop sabotaging yourself. The most fundamental concept to learn is that you do not have control of others including your wife. You do however influence them and the begging and being clingy and super attentive is influencing her to think that you're weak and unattractive. Google (180 and marriage) and read the 180 list.

Step #3: Don't know. You've got to know what you're dealing with first so go back to step #1.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

4evernever said:


> I have not brought up the subject for a few weeks now and sitting here in limbo is just killing me. What do i do next. Do i initiate a talk and see if she responds or do i just wait and let this happen. What to do what to do.


Just keep doing the 180 

If you're not currently working out, join a gym and start lifting HEAVY weights regularly, 3x per week. And commit to going for a walk everyday. She may even decide to join you on the walks!

Go to lunch with a buddy, re-commit to old hobbies or find a new one. Attend a trade show -- gun show, camping expo, boat show, anything that piques your interest. And is MANLY. 

The point is to re-focus your mind and attitude and start feeling good about YOURSELF.

I agree that her moving out is problematic -- couples who separate have a harder time working on the "issues." Your goal right now should be to make it VERY unattractive for her to leave you, her home, and her family.

P.S. I agree with Thundarr. You have GOT to know what you're dealing with. Some investigative work is in order. If you think you're dealing with "A" but you're really dealing with "B" -- things can go off track in a hurry.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

I have covered my bases to see what I am dealing with. She has told me that there is no one else and that there will be no one else. Of course I still did my investigation and did not find anything. I have checked phone records, emails, facebook etc. I believe she is being upfront and honest. 

Her main issue she has told me is that she is not happy, does not feel that i am happy. She is questioning if she is the cause. I asked her why she was giving up and she said she has tried and tried and has nothing more to give. She says she has tried and tried but never has she expressed her feelings of unhappiness. Before when she was upset or sad i would try to ask her what was wrong and she would not tell me anything. She has said in the past that if she says something that i do not like i get upset and make her feel as if her feelings do not matter. Looking back i do see how this has happened as i would get defensive and try to justify my actions or faults instead of listening and validating her feelings.

She has told me that we both need to work on our own issues. She is dealing with something deep inside that she is either not telling me or because she does not know herself what the core issue is. I have a feeling that she is trying to escape all the hurt she is feeling. Maybe she see's the problems in our marriage the main cause for her hurt. 

As for becoming too domestic i do see that starting to happen. Her work involves do everything for people who cannot take care of themselves. So i try to make sure everything is done so she does not have to deal with this stress. That way she has time to relax and think instead of doing more house work. Also she always told me when i do these things it makes her feel happy and relaxed so she can focus on me. I am trying to make the home as warm and inviting as possible to show her what she will be missing. I have also found this to be helpful in keeping my mind busy so i do not break down and lose it.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

No man ever attracted a woman by how well he pushed a vacuum.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Johnconrad said:


> No man ever attracted a woman by how well he pushed a vacuum.


Truth! 

Get the VAR and install it in her car asap.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ButtPunch said:


> Truth!
> 
> Get the VAR and install it in her car asap.


:iagree:
You don't want to think it's an affair or that your wife isn't being honest. You want to trust her. It's scary to think about what you might find if you look. But you have to do it. If you're fighting for your marriage then you have to be sure of the enemy. 

And again to reiterate what others have said. You have to work on you. That means work on making her want you; not necessary on pleasing her.


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## SignOfLife (Aug 13, 2014)

Hey 4evernever, 

I happen to be one of those wives that is honest and asks for the same things yours is...I have no one on the outside, but I yern and crave for something to click with my husband..and as you can see I am now even on this site. I have dealt with these feelings for many years..many !! And we have done counseling, we have paid 3K for workshops out of town..all that for years..But here I am..still trying. The thing about me though is that I can see I have learned a lot. I have calmed down. I have become more self secure and I have learned to love myself and only need myself (well sort 0f). When I say that I mean that I know that life would not end if he wanted to leave me..Also , I have learned that I need to work and work on it especially for my kids. 
My husband is kinda strange..hehe..we are actually about 14 years apart in age he is older..We have one son. And I have 3 girls. 
My husband, I beleive may be a slight narcissisit, so he is very difficult to live with , its like ups and downs constantly. And we have all learned how to not overly push him..I just go along with most of what he says (nowadays) just for my sanity. But yes he drives me nuts ! (But nuts in a non hateful way)..(now)..I used to hate it. , but thank goodness for therapy for myself , because I have learned to live with a person like him...
Now back to where I was going with this..wives yearn for the spouse to be the "Man", take control and still have empathy and tenderness for us at the end of the day..We need help, we get stressed , we get busy and we feel alone..We ultimately just want you to feel like us..(a touch of Estrogen) to go with that testosterone. 
But, the thing I hate is that I personally dont like it if it is forced. I want it to be natural, I want it to be learned, and be like an enlightenment to him..
She probably wants it to be natural, she wants to feel like you will do it forever, no matter what, kinda like you would have done anything for her without question or thought in the first week you ever met. 
Does this make sense. 
Advice; DO NOT do what the above poster said to do, dont go searching out heartache by seeing if she has someone else. 
Spend the energy on you. Work on you and what can make you a better man, a better dad, a better individual. Find heart in your daily life, look deep for that enlightened feeling. Look deep for that split second that if life ended right now, have you done what you wanted to do for who you wanted to do it for?? 
Do NOT take a second for granted. God gave you her, and your children. You are a family. Save it. Be who you need you to be and who she needs you to be !


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

4EN, your wife is about to break up your marriage and your family, and you are trying to be nicer to her??

You should be pissed off right now, where is the respect you deserve? Marriage is too important to hinge on temporary/fleeting emotions like happiness/stress. Deal with your problems together, and if she is not committed to you, show her the door. Draw up the separation agreement, help find her a place to rent by forwarding her the ads for suitable rentals. And be firm that if she is not in the marriage she no longer gets the benefits of being married to you (such as your financial provisions, your emotional support and your affectionate footrubs).

If you still want to be married to her, get the VAR, hire a PI get as much evidence as you can of the OM and when you have enough to know what you are dealing with blow the affair up. (yes, there is some other person she needs to drop you for in order to pursue, if she hasn't begun already).

see weightlifters standard evidence gathering posts:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Also, you were out of town for four months?? this is when she found the person who she wants to get her jollies from now.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

SignOfLife said:


> Advice; DO NOT do what the above poster said to do, dont go searching out heartache by seeing if she has someone else.
> Spend the energy on you. Work on you and what can make you a better man, a better dad, a better individual. Find heart in your daily life, look deep for that enlightened feeling. Look deep for that split second that if life ended right now, have you done what you wanted to do for who you wanted to do it for??
> Do NOT take a second for granted. God gave you her, and your children. You are a family. Save it. Be who you need you to be and who she needs you to be !


If there were another person involved then 4e is at a huge disadvantage without knowing so. I like the message of him working on himself and you seem sincere and nice but it's sounds like you're telling him to hide his head in the sand and just work on himself. Maybe I just see a little snooping as search for the truth and rather than heartache.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> If there were another person involved then 4e is at a huge disadvantage without knowing so. I like the message of him working on himself and you seem sincere and nice but it's sounds like you're telling him to hide his head in the sand and just work on himself. Maybe I just see a little snooping as search for the truth and rather than heartache.


Knowing the score is an absolute must.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SamuraiJack said:


> She may be one of the 10% who are actually telling the truth. I would prefer it if it was verified.


10% of what? All women? Women who are unhappy in their marriage?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> 10% of what? All women? Women who are unhappy in their marriage?


Ele... my take is that he was referring to cheaters in general, not necessarily women.

Just my 2 cents...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

4evernever said:


> How do i get her to open up and tell me how she is truly feeling.


The way you get her to open up and tell you how she feels is to listen to her, try to understand what sh is saying, realize that is her truth, and if you promise something do it , not a just a little while. Make it part of you. This is called positive reinforcement. This is giving her positive reinforcement.

Do that as opposed to what you have done in the past. Let her talk, do some token action and then forget it. She stopped telling you things because you really did not care. This is called negative reinforcement.



4evernever said:


> I have taken some steps from the 180. I try not to be needy and pushy when i am down. I do nice things for her but out of love and out of working on the things that i have lacked on.


You seem to have picked the right things out of the 180. Please do not od the rest of it. That 180 is for a person to put a wall up between them and a cheating spouse until the cheating spouses agrees to end the affair. The last thing that you need is a wall between the two of you.


4evernever said:


> She seems appreciative and happy but still no communication at what really is going on between us. Again last night we sat on the couch together and i rubbed her feet. Just the physical contact is nice and helps me relax.


Do not worry that you are not talking about relationship things right now. What you want to do at this point is to fill her “love bank”. That’s is what you are doing. If you do a good job of it, there will be little need for some big emotional relationship talk.



4evernever said:


> I have read about the plan A as well. From what I gather it says i should make a stand and say i do not want us to separate. That we need to work on this and talk about it until we both decide what is best.


Your wife is not moving yet. So you have some time. You have already told her that you want to work on the marriage. That message has been delivered.


4evernever said:


> Im feeling so lost because i do not know what she is thinking or feeling. What can i do. i have been writing letters to myself in a journal from an outside perspective so i can really see what i am feeling. This helps for awhile then i get back into a bad place and just want to talk to her. I have not brought up the subject for a few weeks now and sitting here in limbo is just killing me. What do i do next. Do i initiate a talk and see if she responds or do i just wait and let this happen. What to do what to do.


I know that it is frustrating, but you are actually doing well. She is responding to changes in her. You said that she is thinking of moving a few months from now?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> Ele... my take is that he was referring to cheaters in general, not necessarily women.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


To the OP's knowledge, the OP's wife is not cheating. That is why I am unclear what he meant.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

4evernever said:


> Sorry for the long rants. It just flows out and comes as a big mess.
> 
> I am working on the 180 but the no contact part is the hardest. Especially since we are both in the same living in the same house at this moment.


Why on earth are you trying to go no-contact with your wife? Part of the problem she sees in the past is that you were not there for her. So now you are trying to fix your marriage by not being there for her? Does that make any sense?



4evernever said:


> I have read the 50% of what they say and do part. This seems to be the one the hits me hard. She will make small comments every now and then. Just little things that remind me she is still moving out. She even wanted to give me money for the drinks we had Saturday. Is this her way of reminding me or is it her reassuring herself that her mind is made up? Since our lack of meaningful communication is one of the main reasons I see us getting to this point the lack communication now is what i am having the hardest time with.


She is having to remind herself and you that she is leaving. could be that her resolve is slowly slipping.


Stop with the wanting to talk about 'meaningful relationship things' right now. That is you going emotional. The one part of the 180 that you do need to follow is to not engage in this stuff right now.

She wants to see action. Words mean little to her right now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Johnconrad said:


> No man ever attracted a woman by how well he pushed a vacuum.


No man ever attracted a woman by not taking responsibility for a affair share of taking care of the home they share together.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lon said:


> 4EN, your wife is about to break up your marriage and your family, and you are trying to be nicer to her??
> 
> You should be pissed off right now, where is the respect you deserve? Marriage is too important to hinge on temporary/fleeting emotions like happiness/stress. Deal with your problems together, and if she is not committed to you, show her the door. Draw up the separation agreement, help find her a place to rent by forwarding her the ads for suitable rentals. And be firm that if she is not in the marriage she no longer gets the benefits of being married to you (such as your financial provisions, your emotional support and your affectionate footrubs).
> 
> ...


So far it does not look like she is cheating. He can keep looking. 

What you are saying is that she has no right to her own feelings and point of view.

They both work full time. But if her husband decides that she is 99% responsible for all housework, chores, etc, she has to shut up and take it. Really?

There are other concerns she has.. he's mentioned them. 

They are valid concerns. He has admitted that she has a valid point.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

4evernever said:


> As for becoming too domestic i do see that starting to happen.


What % of the domestic work have you done up to now in your marriage?

What % are you doing now?


https://contemporaryfamilies.org/gender-revolution-rebound-glass-half-empty/


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> So far it does not look like she is cheating. He can keep looking.
> 
> What you are saying is that she has no right to her own feelings and point of view.
> 
> ...


I agree with you except for the part where you said he can keep looking. I don't think it crossed his mind to look at all but maybe I missed something. But you're right that he cannot assume she's doing anything suspicious just because she's not happy. He's got to go with the knowledge he has. And part of this knowledge is that he's not stepped up in some ways as a partner.


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## SignOfLife (Aug 13, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> If there were another person involved then 4e is at a huge disadvantage without knowing so. I like the message of him working on himself and you seem sincere and nice but it's sounds like you're telling him to hide his head in the sand and just work on himself. Maybe I just see a little snooping as search for the truth and rather than heartache.


I understand your reasoning, however, when and if it does come to pass that way, there is absolutely nothing he can do other than what my advice was for him in the first place. If you are able to stand strong no matter what is going on in the greener grass if that is the case, then you will be ready to handle it. 

It will play itself out. No need to search.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> No man every attracted a woman by not taking responsibility for a affair share of taking care of the home they share together.


It's quite often a fool's errand, as a man struggles to please his wife by taking a lion's share of that "burden" off of her. He fantasizes that she'll be grateful and wish to spend time with him. We've often seen that she takes that time and plows it into her emotional affair with posOM.

Attraction comes from him being manly and awesome. Not from struggling to put a smile on her face.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

SignOfLife said:


> I understand your reasoning, however, when and if it does come to pass that way, there is absolutely nothing he can do other than what my advice was for him in the first place. If you are able to stand strong no matter what is going on in the greener grass if that is the case, then you will be ready to handle it.
> 
> It will play itself out. No need to search.


Yet, the affair fog is easier to break early. Working on yourself when no one is paying attention is only half a loaf.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Ele, if she's closed down her love bank wicket, no amount of him making love deposits will be received.

His lack of effort around the house honestly could just be blame shifting... Either way, what has happened recently in his w to trigger this sudden need for space? And she is determined that SHE is the one causing him to be unhappy? Is that not a pretty clear case of projection? It makes her feel guilty when he tells her he loves her (that is not indicitave of someone whose spouse already piled on the straw that broke the camel's back).

And she has in the past told him if there was another guy, she would up and leave, just like she's doing. But either way he is now on egg shells, she holds the balance of power and is likely checked out so any move he makes at this point, whether genuine or not, will be perceived as manipulative and she has already judged him as unfit. There is nothing he can directly do to change her opinion. All through this thread he is accepting responsibility for her feelings, and she knows this about him, he is trying to be strong and she is using it to escape her culpability for her own failures in the marriage. The very title of this thread is essentially an ILYBINILWY. Which is why I think he was advised to 180.

4EN, please consider following the advice I said to put the VAR in the car as per weightlifters thread. I suspect you are taking on blame for things out of your control and by making those the focus some commenters are not seeing the red flags which I do from my perspective.

Can you think of any other things that people would consider red flags about your W? New clothes? New lingerie? New social circles? New makeup or hairstyle? You said she has recently made improvements in her fitness and physique?


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## SignOfLife (Aug 13, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> I agree with you except for the part where you said he can keep looking. I don't think it crossed his mind to look at all but maybe I missed something. But you're right that he cannot assume she's doing anything suspicious just because she's not happy. He's got to go with the knowledge he has. And part of this knowledge is that he's not stepped up in some ways as a partner.


Probably correct, and she as well. The wife more than likely struggles herself. Hopefully they both can learn about themselves while struggling to get through this. Sometimes it may take years to learn, but suddenly when it all makes perfect sense, it is the greatest gift.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

Lon said:


> Ele, if she's closed down her love bank wicket, no amount of him making love deposits will be received.


In fact, the more consideration and love he shows, the weaker he will seem.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Johnconrad said:


> No man ever attracted a woman by how well he pushed a vacuum.





EleGirl said:


> No man ever attracted a woman by not taking responsibility for a affair share of taking care of the home they share together.





Johnconrad said:


> It's quite often a fool's errand, as a man struggles to please his wife by taking a lion's share of that "burden" off of her.


When a woman works full time, housework is not her “burden”. It is their joint burden. I has as much responsibility to take care of things at home as she does.

Your first quote above was bout pushing a vacuum. Not you have blown it up to “the lion’s share”. These are two completely different things. 



Johnconrad said:


> He fantasizes that she'll be grateful and wish to spend time with him. We've often seen that she takes that time and plows it into her emotional affair with posOM.


The OP’s wife is upset because for their entire marriage he has basically refused to share the household work with her. He does not take responsibly, evidenced by her having to tell him what is needed and then he blows it off. 

So what you are suggesting is that he should continue to blow off HIS responsibility that he has neglected for years and forced onto her, because there is an outside chance that she is having an affair. Now she has a legitimate gripe. But you are suggesting that he ignore her legitimate grip because she might be cheating. (Keep in mind that the OP has investigated and has yet to find any evidence of an affair.)


Johnconrad said:


> Attraction comes from him being manly and awesome. Not from struggling to put a smile on her face.


The way a man is manly and awesome is that he takes responsivity. Pushing the bulk of the housework and childcare on his wife is not manly and awesome. It’s immature and obnoxious. 

What is not attractive is a man who does all of the domestic labor while his wife does nothing. Doormats are not sexy or attractive and get no respect, by definition.

It is impossible to divide domestic labor 50/50. But if both spouses strive to do what is needed, it will even out over time. One spouse should never have to constantly remind the other that chores need to be done.

The OP on this thread has admitted that he has not shared the responsibility nor the work for domestic labor during his marriage. He has basically blown off years of his wife asking him to take responsibility for his fair share. Giving him advice now to continue to dump all, or the bulk of domestic labor on his wife counterproductive.

I guess we all saw that study that came out last year that says that men who do female chores at home get less sex. Those who do male chores get more sex. The problem with that study is that it is based on data from 1989-1994. That’s I a tad old. 

A newer study, done with data from 2006 has very different results.

“things have changed significantly in more recent years. Couples who shared domestic labor had sex at least as often, and were at least as satisfied with the frequency and quality of their sex, as couples where the woman did the bulk of the housework. In fact, these egalitarian partners were ranked slightly higher in all these categories, reporting more frequent sex and greater satisfaction with the frequency and quality of that sex than conventional couples, although these differences did not reach the level of statistical significance. This suggests that it is good news for couples, not bad, that men have more than doubled the amount of housework they do since the 1960s.”
“The one group that did score significantly lower than both egalitarian and conventional couples? Couples where men did the bulk of the domestic labor. Apparently, completely reversing gender roles in housework was not a sexual turn-on to either the men or women involved. But such couples accounted for only a small share (less than 5 percent) of those in our sample.”

https://contemporaryfamilies.org/gender-revolution-rebound-glass-half-empty/


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Ele, who we have before us is a man that is facing the end of his marriage trying to understand his part and how to fix it, he's going to admit every possible wrongdoing on here and we are not going to get at all an accurate picture of how equitable his contributions to his relationship are.

When my W was leaving me, and I was desperate to save my marriage, the list of ways I failed my W which I came up felt nearly endless. In time, I've reflected, relived, rehashed and slowly over the subsequent months and years I recanted most of the things on my list of failures. Eventually he will come to realize he did what he could, the choices he made were right at the time, and that he in fact was vested in the marriage and contributed for for it just as well as his partner did.

He didn't pull his domestic weight because he has worked too hard. He figured it out and was making adjustments when his W suddenly chooses to check out? Because he attempted to do what she was saying she needed? That is one self entitled princess.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lon said:


> Ele, if she's closed down her love bank wicket, no amount of him making love deposits will be received.


This is a misunderstanding of how the “love bank” works. The love bank is, scientifically speaking, the brain chemistry. She has zero control over her brain chemistry. She cannot tell her brain to let one stimulus in and block another. If she interacts with her in a positive manner. Her brain will produce more dopamine, oxytocin, etc. If he starts taking responsibility for his fair share of domestic labor.. her brain will produce more. Every chance he has to touch her, spend time with her, talk to her will cause more to be produced.

There have been tests done where couples with marital problem get a dose of oxytocin spray before a counseling secession are more able to work on their problems and fix them. 



Lon said:


> His lack of effort around the house honestly could just be blame shifting... Either way, what has happened recently in his w to trigger this sudden need for space?


Apparently this need for space is not critical, she’s not moving for months. Perhaps it’s a way to express the extreme frustration she is feeling.
Posters on TAM advise whose wives are doing similar things like the OP has done, to file for divorce…. To use this as a shock to wake up the errant wife to that he is serious. Well the OP’s wife has done this… she has one foot out the door just like the men on here out are told to file as a shock tactic. She apparently doesn’t have the money to file, so maybe threatening to leave is the only thing she can do.

My second husband, now ex, did something very similar. He refused to take responsivity and dumped all domestic labor on me. This is a large part, of why I divorced him. I worked full time and burned out because he refused to be my partner. So why did I just one day, out of the blue file for divorce? Because on that one day the level of “fed up” hit that dong-bell at the top of the scale. There was no big event. I was just years of crap piled as high as I could take it. I have a feeling that this is where the OP’s wife is.

The OP has spent years ignoring his wife’s requests for him to be on her team, to not put so much work on her. He admits this. Now you want to suggest that she is blame shifting. By doing this you are saying that she has to shut up and put up. That her voice does not count. Only his does.


Lon said:


> And she is determined that SHE is the one causing him to be unhappy? Is that not a pretty clear case of projection? It makes her feel guilty when he tells her he loves her (that is not indicitave of someone whose spouse already piled on the straw that broke the camel's back).


No it is not. Trying to say that his means she is cheating, blame shifting, etc. is nothing more than you projecting something in your head onto her.
Maybe it means that she is struggling with the idea of leaving him. It is not usual for a person to keep questioning their part of the failure of their relationship. It would not be unusual for a person to think that since their spouse does not love them enough even be an equal partner, that they themselves must be flawed and the cause of their spouse’s unhappy demeanor and refusal to patriciate fully in the relationship.



Lon said:


> And she has in the past told him if there was another guy, she would up and leave, just like she's doing.


She also told him that she would tell the OP first.
One important fact that you keep forgetting. She is not leaving any time soon. She has said that she is leaving a few months. 



Lon said:


> But either way he is now on egg shells, she holds the balance of power and is likely checked out so any move he makes at this point, whether genuine or not, will be perceived as manipulative and she has already judged him as unfit.


During the course of a marriage, the “power” shifts between the two spouses depending on circumstances. Up to now, he had all the “power”. After all he was able to push most/all of is domestic responsibilities onto her. She was on egg shells trying to figure out how to get him to take his rightful responsibility and carry half of the domestic load. The pendulum might has swung form him to her some. If they can work this out, it should swing to a new, never before position… to equity.
She has the right, as does any human, to set her own boundaries. One of her boundaries is that she will not remain in a marriage where she is pushed into being the maid. So apparently has other boundary that she will not remain in a marriage with a man who is in a grouchy mood all the time. These sound reasonable. She has given him plenty of opportunity in the past to modify his behavior. He did not want to. She is not telling him to change. She has told him her boundaries and is enforcing them. 


Lon said:


> There is nothing he can directly do to change her opinion. All through this thread he is accepting responsibility for her feelings, and she knows this about him, he is trying to be strong and she is using it to escape her culpability for her own failures in the marriage.


Studies have been done that follow couples who are in unhappy marriages, often one where they are ready to split. The couples were followed for 5 years. At the 5 year point, 85% of the formerly unhappy marriages reported that they were very happy. Marriages go through stages. The OP has a huge chance o f bringing her back into the marriage. 

Yes there are things that he can do to change her mind… with actions. He became a man who takes responsibility to the mood and a man who takes responsibility for his fair share of the domestic labor.
If she will come around, they can address her failures in the marriage. 


Lon said:


> The very title of this thread is essentially an ILYBINILWY. Which is why I think he was advised to 180.


Because many on this forum do not understand that the 180 is. He was even being advised to go no-contact. The 180 IS NOT no contact. 
ILYBINILWY does not automatically mean that an affair is in progress. Many people, men and women, say that when they are feeling “out of love”. The feelings of “in love” ebb and flow in a marriage.

The OP has investigated and has not found an affair. So, until the finds one (not guaranteed by any means) it’s wrong to treat this as an affair situation. 

The 180 & Plan A are for one purpose only … for the BS to use to negotiated then end of an affair so that the couple can decide if they will recover the marriage or not. Why is he being told to do what is needed to negotiate for the end of an affair when he says that there ls no affair?

If a BS finds out about an affair and the WS drops it, enters no contact and agrees to work on the marriage, the 180 is not needed. The 180 does not fit every case of a couple having marital problems.


Lon said:


> 4EN, please consider following the advice I said to put the VAR in the car as per weightlifters thread.


I agree with this. A var in her car could help to prove or disprove an affair even further. But until an affair is proven, he and we have to assume that there is no affair. If it disproves an affair, 4EN will have much more peace of mind. If it proves an affair, then he can look at the steps for handling an affair.


Lon said:


> I suspect you are taking on blame for things out of your control and by making those the focus some commenters are not seeing the red flags which I do from my perspective.


Lets’ not forget that the BS always shares in the responsibly for the state of the marriage. If there is an affair, then she alone has the responsibly for choosing an affair. Contrary to popular opinion on TAM, a wife having an affair does not absolve her husband of wronging doings. They both have responsibility for their contribution to the failure of the marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Lon said:


> Eventually he will come to realize he did what he could, the choices he made were right at the time, and that he in fact was vested in the marriage and contributed for for it just as well as his partner did.


Or he'll realize that he is right and he really didn't pull his weight or make changes that stuck and that she was right to be upset about it. 

When I was ready to walk, the first step to keeping me in the M was H admitting he was not doing his part around the house and that it wasn't fair to me. 

I don't think you realize how disrespected and unloved it can make some people feel when the household chores are not split fairly. The resentment that can happen because of it will take a long time to heal.

IMO it is just like if she was not having sex with him, her work was too hard, he told her what he needed and she's change for a bit and then stop again.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Johnconrad said:


> In fact, the more consideration and love he shows, the weaker he will seem.


So now being considerate is weak? 

Do your really think that a man who has been inconsiderate in some ways to his wife, will look stronger if he becomes even more inconsiderate.

I am sure that you guys know more than women who have been through similar situations as his wife know. I am so glad that you all are here to tell me and others that we do not think the way we indeed think.:scratchhead:


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

One of the most unattractive things my husband used to do was sit on his ass playing on the computer or watching TV, while I, after working a 12 hour day, cooked dinner and cleaned up the kitchen afterwards. He probably wonders why he didn't get laid all that much.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Or he'll realize that he is right and he really didn't pull his weight or make changes that stuck and that she was right to be upset about it.


Yea, the OP has told us what went down. He was there. He knows.


SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> When I was ready to walk, the first step to keeping me in the M was H admitting he was not doing his part around the house and that it wasn't fair to me.


If my 2ndex had done this at any time, and shown that he meant in through his actions, we would still be married. 


SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't think you realize how disrespected and unloved it can make some people feel when the household chores are not split fairly. The resentment that can happen because of it will take a long time to heal.


This is something that so many do not get and brush off as noise, nonsense. There are aspects of this… it’s not about measuring who does more. 
It’s about the fact that both when both spouses have a full time job (SAHM’s have a full time job), dumping all of the household chores on them leads to them basically working around the clock. There is little to no down time. It leads to physical, mental and emotional exhaustion. And to make matters worse, the lazy spouse expects you to be their personal maid and servant. 
It’s also about the fact, absolute fact, that a man who does not take responsibly for his own household is not a man who most women will respect. He is acting like an immature kid who needs a mommy. This is a HUGE turnoff. 


SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> IMO it is just like if she was not having sex with him, her work was too hard, he told her what he needed and she's change for a bit and then stop again.


Yep, that’s the same. 

I am sure that most men would end up out of love with a wife if he worked a full time job, did all the housework and all the child care. We do seem men on TAM who post exactly that. And what are they told? To file for divorce and find a younger woman. Well maybe the OP’s wife read that advice and it made sense to her…. At least the divorce part. Why is she wrong when any man who comes to TAM with this exact same situation is advised to do what she is doing?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I agree with you except for the part where you said he can keep looking. I don't think it crossed his mind to look at all but maybe I missed something. But you're right that he cannot assume she's doing anything suspicious just because she's not happy. He's got to go with the knowledge he has. And part of this knowledge is that he's not stepped up in some ways as a partner.


He said that he has looked, snooped and not found anything.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

When I had a talk with my husband 2 and 1/2 years ago and I told him how unhappy I was with the state of our marriage, I guess you guys would have all thought I was having an affair. Guess what? That wasn't even in the realm of possibilities. I just wanted a better marriage. I wanted to feel closer and more intimate with my husband. I didn't want to live like roommates that have sex for the rest of my life. I wanted a romantic relationship. The best thing was is that he listened to my concerns and has made changes. Things are not perfect but a lot better. I think our relationship and sex life is better now than ever. 

If my husband had ignored me and done the "180", I have no idea where we would be right now. Miserable? Close to divorce? I don't know.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> When a woman works full time, housework is not her “burden”. It is their joint burden. I has as much responsibility to take care of things at home as she does.
> 
> Your first quote above was bout pushing a vacuum. Not you have blown it up to “the lion’s share”. These are two completely different things.
> 
> ...


Academics can study and make things come out however they wish - simply by using leading questions and working backwards from their preferred results.

I speak from the cumulative real-world experience of many guys who fall victim to the niceguy syndrome. Catering to your spouse is a display of low value.

No one is saying sit on your ass. I'm not certain how "being awesome" becomes "sitting on your ass and playing video games"

But, you all have at it. I don't fight echo chambers. I know how things went in my life - and the lives of literally hundreds of others.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lon said:


> Ele, who we have before us is a man that is facing the end of his marriage trying to understand his part and how to fix it, he's going to admit every possible wrongdoing on here and we are not going to get at all an accurate picture of how equitable his contributions to his relationship are.


The OP is not a stupid man… that’s obvious. If you want to believe that his is lying to us, than go right ahead. You are implying that he has no fault in the failure of their marriage. That is just not the way marriages crumble. 

The OP is a big boy and a smart one. He can correct anything if he has given the wrong impression. Until he does, it’s a disservice to him to assume that he is lying. If he changes his story, then I will consider altering my point of view.

Keep in mind that his wife is not here to tell her side of the story. You are 



Lon said:


> When my W was leaving me, and I was desperate to save my marriage, the list of ways I failed my W which I came up felt nearly endless. In time, I've reflected, relived, rehashed and slowly over the subsequent months and years I recanted most of the things on my list of failures. Eventually he will come to realize he did what he could, the choices he made were right at the time, and that he in fact was vested in the marriage and contributed for for it just as well as his partner did.


He is not you. You have no idea what he will do. What we see more often on TAM are men who say that they were prefect husbands and their wives are {fill in list of filthy adjectives}. And the other men on TAM assure them that they were prefect husbands.

You may be one of the very few married people who did not contribute to the failure of your marriage. But most people do. It takes two to tango.

On TAM, we get one side of the story. The other spouse is not here to fill in the ‘rest of the story’. However, almost every time a spouse has come on and responded to what the other posted here, boy does the story come a very different story. 



Lon said:


> He didn't pull his domestic weight because he has worked too hard. He figured it out and was making adjustments when his W suddenly chooses to check out? Because he attempted to do what she was saying she needed? That is one self entitled princess.


She works too. He did not indicate the difference in hours worked. If he was not able to take responsibility for his portion of the household chores than it was his responsibility to find a way to help his wife out… like hire someone to help her.

You have very little information about them. She is not here to tell her side of the story. Yet you are hot to rewrite what the OP wrote to exonerate him, to turn him into a victim and to make his wife out to be a “self-entitled princess”

I have more respect for the OP’s integrity that that. I chose to believe exactly what he told us. I he feels he needs to add more info to clarify, he can. And I will respectfully that and believe what he tells us.

Note that I am THE ONLY poster on this thread who started to ask him questions to clarify. For example I asked if he could give a 50% of how much each did in house work. Believe the OP and ask for clarification if you think he’s not giving you the truth.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Johnconrad said:


> Academics can study and make things come out however they wish - simply by using leading questions and working backwards from their preferred results.


Let’s see. When the “study” came out that said that when men did women’s work they had less sex than when they did men’s work. That was embraced and championed on every men’s site as gospel truth.

Now when a more recent study shows that the 25 years later things have change quite a bit, that study is nonsense because it does not fit the view that you want. 



Johnconrad said:


> I speak from the cumulative real-world experience of many guys who fall victim to the niceguy syndrome. Catering to your spouse is a display of low value.


If you think that a man taking responsibility for his fair share of domestic work is “catering to your spouse”, you have no clue.


Johnconrad said:


> No one is saying sit on your ass. I'm not certain how "being awesome" becomes "sitting on your ass and playing video games"


No one said that "being awesome" becomes "sitting on your ass and playing video games". You have no definition of what being awesome is. I still do not know what you mean by “awesome”.
I did give at least one thing that makes when think a man is awesome: when a man takes responsibility of his half of all things in the relationship to include domestic job. That’s is one sexy man.


Johnconrad said:


> But, you all have at it. I don't fight echo chambers. I know how things went in my life - and the lives of literally hundreds of others.


Antidotes. I have those too… hundreds, probably thousands, of them. 

But as a woman, I can tell you what I and other women know: That a man who takes responsibility, side by side with his woman is one awesome, sexy guy.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't think the OP even posted what household duties she's talking about. I mean if the guys here want to be all traditional and 1950's, it could be that the grass isn't being mowed, the house needs painting or that drawer that's been broken in the kitchen for two years hasn't been fixed. Are those acceptable household duties for men?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> I don't think the OP even posted what household duties she's talking about. I mean if the guys here want to be all traditional and 1950's, it could be that the grass isn't being mowed, the house needs painting or that drawer that's been broken in the kitchen for two years hasn't been fixed. Are those acceptable household duties for men?


Well, if they want to go all 1950's, then what's with her working full time. 

Why is she doing a huge hunk of his job? Doesn't that make him not so awesome and manly?

See you cannot just pick one side of this... he's not awesome and manly if he does housework.... but then be ok with her doing her fair share of the traditional male responsibility brining in the bacon.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Ele, yes I am projecting my own perspective onto 4EN's comments because I see red flags that 1) he is not getting the straight truth from his W and that 2) he suffers from NG syndrome like johnconrad suggested.

The reason I think of NG syndrome is the way he has refused to put any blame of the state of the marriage back on her. Yes he is not dumb and yes he freely admits that he has let her down by slacking, but he hasn't said that his slacking was deliberate withholding in order to manipulate or even cope with any resentment. Nor would he be on here fessing sins if he was the kind of person who was completely unaware how much he slacked. His perspective on here is completely skewed, if I am correct in my projection of him as a NG sufferer who has her on a pedestal, in which case taking his words at face value isn't getting anywhere close to heart of the matter.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Lon said:


> Ele, yes I am projecting my own perspective onto 4EN's comments because I see red flags that 1) he is not getting the straight truth from his W and that 2) he suffers from NG syndrome like johnconrad suggested.
> 
> The reason I think of NG syndrome is the way he has refused to put any blame of the state of the marriage back on her. Yes he is not dumb and yes he freely admits that he has let her down by slacking, but he hasn't said that his slacking was deliberate withholding in order to manipulate or even cope with any resentment. Nor would he be on here fessing sins if he was the kind of person who was completely unaware how much he slacked. His perspective on here is completely skewed, if I am correct in my projection of him as a NG sufferer who has her on a pedestal, in which case taking his words at face value isn't getting anywhere close to heart of the matter.


I had told my H about a million times how I felt about the lack of help around the house. I think my first thread back in 2011 was about just that. It took years of asking, begging, talking, then giving up and just keeping quiet and going through the motions before I was ready to leave. When I was, I was serious. 
When he knew I was serious, he listened. 
It didn't matter if he did it on purpose or not, it was hurtful.

H is not a NG but he knew that that was not the time to say "but... but... look at all YOU did too!!!" In fact, he didn't have any big complaints about me. I worked, cooked, cleaned, looked after the kids, took care of everything that needed done, and didn't even bother to b*tch anymore. 

You say that not putting blame back on her is a NG move? 
IMO not taking responsibility for his actions and instead trying to shift the blame to her would be. Making excuses, saying it wasn't his fault or wasn't bad cause he didn't do it on purpose- none of that would say strong, confident man. 

If he can get her to stay, they will have time to build their relationship and work on both their needs. 
Right now he has to prove he's a man of his word. Someone who doesn't need a Mommy to clean up after him, someone who can do his job and not make his wife do it for him. 

That means he'll have to make these changes, take 100% responsibility and make it stick. Sounds like he is on the right track if he doesn't listen to the crowd telling him that he has excuses and to blame shift to her faults and go 180 because clearly, there's something more going on rolleyes.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I think this proves that there is a very fine line between being a Nice Guy and being a considerate, responsible man.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

First of all I want to thank you all for the support and comments. 

To reply to all the latest comments I first will admit. I am looking at myself and what I have done to contribute to where my marriage is at at this point. That is the first thing that must be done for me to truly change and not just go through the motions temporarily again.

Yes I do work very hard. In the beginning of my marriage my wife was a SAHM and i would work sometimes 80 hours/week. She would complain sometimes about me sharing the load of housework but was more concerned about the time not being spent at home. I am now in a office position. This was great at first because I was home more. I helped around the house but was not proactive. My career is a 24 hour business and i get calls throughout the night. Sometimes while we were talking about regular day to day stuff and my phone would ring it was instinct to answer. This of course showed her as second to the job. As time went on and she started to work I should have picked up more of the household duties. Instead I would wait until she asked me too. A lot of arguments started off with me saying just tell me to do it and it will get done. Her reply was "no one tells me to do it, it just gets done because I have to" She was feeling like a maid, or mother. We would argue and I would get better until I became complacent again. This is her biggest complaint that it is a never ending cycle and she does not want to live like that.

As I have moved up in my career the mental demands and stress have increased dramatically. Instead of dealing with these stresses in a healthy manner, I bring these home and have a short temper with things not going right. Its the perfectionist side of me. When I cannot control I feel afraid and instead of showing fear and concern i show anger so I am "manly" and "tough". When she points out her unhappiness about things I would get defensive. I would try to justify everything I was not doing. Sometimes I would just plainly forget (ADHD?)

Now by all means I am not saying I am the only one at fault here. She has failed to communicate with me her feelings on my behavior. She would yell, complain and be distant. She would then bottle these feelings up and I thought great no complaining no worries. All the while she was brewing up feelings of resentment and not feeling loved. She can be hot headed at times and kind of a pessimist about things. This would cause me to try and fix things or rationalize life around us. Making her feel like her feelings were not important or correct.

As for the affair subject. I am not blind to the fact that people stray for a variety of reasons. By nature I am jealous and have thought the worst at times. I have done my research and nothing points to OM at this point. I respect your advice and know you are just relating from experiences you have lived or read about. I continue to keep my eyes open to this fact but do not dwell on this for it puts my mind in a really bad place. If she wanted to she could move out today and live with her sister, or friends. This is not the case. She is staying in the house until she can afford a place to stay. Maybe deep inside she wants to wait. Her coming forward and telling me her feelings will hopefully be the first step in us really building a strong relationship based on mutual respect trust and love.

She has never been the cuddelly needy type. She has always been very independent. Part of me feels like she is trying to show her independence in all this because she feels she has lost herself. Those are actually words she has said. I do not feel like myself. The stress from work over the past year has been really rough and i have been a real jerk to be around. Not only to her at home but to my family and friends as well. Very short tempered and agitated by little things. I am usually not this way, I have always been the guy who makes things fun, goofy, and carefree. Not so much lately. This is her reasoning for seeing me as unhappy. She feels that she is partly to blame because of how she is always "nagging" and complaining has turned me into an unhappy person. 

So much for what has brought us up to this for now. Last night was a good night. She worked and when she came home she asked if I had eaten. I had not as my appetite has been extremely low lately. She asked if I would like to eat dinner with her and she warmed up some leftovers. We sat down at the dinner table together instead of in front of the tv. She asked about my day at work and we talked about her day. We then sat on the couch and I of coursed rubbed her feet and massaged her legs to help her relax. When I got up for bed I gave her hug and said goodnight. She sat up and for a moment I thought she might come to bed. She sat there and then asked for me to bring her a blanket and pillow. I am taking this day by day and count this as a small victory. We will see what today brings.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I can relate to so much of your post from the wife's side.
Nagging and complaining, then giving up. Dealing with short temper and defensiveness and changes that never stick.
There's likely a lot of resentment and fear. She loves you and wants to trust you and this change but is scared to get hurt again. 

Keep at it consistently, don't get angry or give up if the results you see aren't immediate or change from day to day. 

Is there some chores you can do today that she's asked you to do in the past and you never did? Maybe tonight make her dinner- and clean up after it as well! Don't expect a huge praise or reward. Just do it because it's your job. 

I think your posts shows you understand and that is so important if you are to recover from this. 

I think his needs, her needs and love busters are good books. Angry outbursts can be a huge love buster.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Well, if they want to go all 1950's, then what's with her working full time.
> 
> Why is she doing a huge hunk of his job? Doesn't that make him not so awesome and manly?
> 
> See you cannot just pick one side of this... he's not awesome and manly if he does housework.... but then be ok with her doing her fair share of the traditional male responsibility brining in the bacon.


:iagree:


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

I do try and show her she is a priority. All along I have been showing this by working hard so that we have all the things we need and some of the things we want. I tried showing her by providing that she was the priority. This is were I failed. I immersed myself in work to provide for the best I can. Do not misunderstand. I am by no means a rich man and she does not ask for fancy items or vacations out of our reach. In fact I have always tried to give her nice things. I remember once early in our marriage I bought her a nice necklace that was way out of our budget. She stated she loved the gift but it was too much and we returned it. 

By focusing on providing for her and our kids I failed to be a partner in our home. I see where I have failed in speaking her love language by showing and telling her thank you and appreciating all she does. I would go buy flowers every so often. I would do small things but never what she truly was asking for. Someone to share life's not so fun duties. To truly act as a partner in our home. I would worry more about how much is in the bank versus actually paying the bills. I would ask how much did you spend? I was preoccupied with money and financial security versus quality time and emotional security. I lost the balance in this. 

When we first became a couple we were young, had our first child at an early age. Money was always tight but it was never an issue. We were happy with what we had and happy to have it together. There were some really tough times money wise but we worked together and always made it. As we grew up and things started going well financially I told myself that we would never go back there and live like that. I now wish we could go back and live like that. Not struggling for money but working together and always making it no matter what.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

SunnyT said:


> I think this proves that there is a very fine line between being a Nice Guy and being a considerate, responsible man.


In all truth, the line isn't "fine" at all.

The motive of the niceguy is to manipulate.

The motive of the responsible man is authenticity.

There's a literal chasm between the two.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

4evernever said:


> I do try and show her she is a priority. All along I have been showing this by working hard so that we have all the things we need and some of the things we want. I tried showing her by providing that she was the priority. This is were I failed. I immersed myself in work to provide for the best I can. Do not misunderstand. I am by no means a rich man and she does not ask for fancy items or vacations out of our reach. In fact I have always tried to give her nice things. I remember once early in our marriage I bought her a nice necklace that was way out of our budget. She stated she loved the gift but it was too much and we returned it.
> 
> By focusing on providing for her and our kids I failed to be a partner in our home. I see where I have failed in speaking her love language by showing and telling her thank you and appreciating all she does. I would go buy flowers every so often. I would do small things but never what she truly was asking for. Someone to share life's not so fun duties. To truly act as a partner in our home. I would worry more about how much is in the bank versus actually paying the bills. I would ask how much did you spend? I was preoccupied with money and financial security versus quality time and emotional security. I lost the balance in this.
> 
> When we first became a couple we were young, had our first child at an early age. Money was always tight but it was never an issue. We were happy with what we had and happy to have it together. There were some really tough times money wise but we worked together and always made it. As we grew up and things started going well financially I told myself that we would never go back there and live like that. I now wish we could go back and live like that. Not struggling for money but working together and always making it no matter what.


Sounds like you were trying to earn her love.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

As for showing her how she is a priority now, I am doing what I always should have. When we are together my focus is on her. If the phone rings I do not answer, I do not even look at until we are finished talking. I do not talk about my day at work hoping she will tell me about hers. I ask her how her day was not just how was work. I listen more versus waiting for my turn to speak or butting in.(another one of things i do).

I treat her the way I want to be treated. I always liked when she asked me how things were going or thanked me for the little stuff I did. This made me feel important and needed. I would then make sure I bragged or displayed all what I have done. "Did you see I did the laundry", "look i made the bed". This would annoy her because I was asking for praise for stuff I should have been helping with all along. I asked for praise for things I did not praise her for. I then would feel less important and needed and do less and less. I see where she would feel the same way, less needed and important as I focused on work instead of home.

I feel like I have taken her love and support for granted. If i do this and provide that stay loyal and do nice things how could anyone want to leave me. All along my actions were centered around me instead of her. Good women do not want to be married to a bank account. They want someone to share life with not just the fun times but the daily grind. I have not been that person consistently. This is our main issue that has been voiced. I treat life with a triage mentality. This is is the worst thing going on so that is what i will focus on until it is manageable then let it be while going to the next thing that is wrong.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Johnconrad said:


> Sounds like you were trying to earn her love.


You have a point. I am insecure always have been. I always think that I have been lucky in life. I dont see my accomplishments due to my hard work and sacrifice. I feel that I am always waiting for the curtain to fall and the luck to run out. I believe that is the reason for my anger. When I feel afraid or unworthy I try to "man up" and be strong. I do not show strength by facing this fear but I show it by beating with anger, raising my voice and escaping the fear. This is part of the reason I know that I am struggling with ADHD. This is a common response and how I have learned to cope. My mind works fast and when I cannot control something or something is out of its normal routine I lash out.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

4evernever said:


> You have a point. I am insecure always have been. I always think that I have been lucky in life. I dont see my accomplishments due to my hard work and sacrifice. I feel that I am always waiting for the curtain to fall and the luck to run out. I believe that is the reason for my anger. When I feel afraid or unworthy I try to "man up" and be strong. I do not show strength by facing this fear but I show it by beating with anger, raising my voice and escaping the fear. This is part of the reason I know that I am struggling with ADHD. This is a common response and how I have learned to cope. My mind works fast and when I cannot control something or something is out of its normal routine I lash out.


Her emotional centers interpret those actions as weakness and a lack of emotional control.

Have you had any therapy?


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

I have not had any therapy. I am planning on making a Dr appointment for a consultation on adult ADHD.

I realize that she sees this as weakness and lack of control. That is what I have been working on the most in recent weeks. Controlling my feelings. Looking at myself and my self worth. I have started writing letters to myself, it helps me step away from the situation and look at it from the outside. The first letter was mostly of how we got here. Looking deep inside and realizing what my fear does to me and how to overcome. I wrote that one of my biggest fears was abandonement and how instead of becoming angry and hateful how I have been facing this fear with actions of love toward myself and my wife. This is truly the strength I have versus escaping the fear with anger. I also told myself that I love myself for who I am. The next few letters so far have been looking back on the previous days especially when I am extremely emotional and not able to function without thinking non stop about things. These letters are based on what I was feeling at the time and how did I react.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

4evernever said:


> I have not had any therapy. I am planning on making a Dr appointment for a consultation on adult ADHD.
> 
> I realize that she sees this as weakness and lack of control. That is what I have been working on the most in recent weeks. Controlling my feelings. Looking at myself and my self worth. I have started writing letters to myself, it helps me step away from the situation and look at it from the outside. The first letter was mostly of how we got here. Looking deep inside and realizing what my fear does to me and how to overcome. I wrote that one of my biggest fears was abandonement and how instead of becoming angry and hateful how I have been facing this fear with actions of love toward myself and my wife. This is truly the strength I have versus escaping the fear with anger. I also told myself that I love myself for who I am. The next few letters so far have been looking back on the previous days especially when I am extremely emotional and not able to function without thinking non stop about things. These letters are based on what I was feeling at the time and how did I react.


This is extraordinarily difficult to do by yourself.

Being diagnosed and medicated can be helpful, but it's no substitute for getting to the psychodynamic root of your issues.

As you may suspect, I've walked a similar path. I'm just further up the road. The idea of earning my wife's love now seems downright silly. Yet, it used to be my reason for getting up in the morning. I could never have done this simply by staying in my own head. A good therapist and a safe friend (ideally of the same sex) are damned near indispensable for deprogramming yourself.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Johnconrad said:


> The idea of earning my wife's love now seems downright silly.


I guess I do not follow how earning someones love seems silly. You have to earn trust and respect. I do see how trying to earn someones love after the fact is self defeating because you are not actually receiving if you are constantly trying to earn love. In my current position am I not supposed to be earning her trust back with my actions, earning her love back with my actions and change?


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

4evernever said:


> I guess I do not follow how earning someones love seems silly. You have to earn trust and respect. I do see how trying to earn someones love after the fact is self defeating because you are not actually receiving if you are constantly trying to earn love. In my current position am I not supposed to be earning her trust back with my actions, earning her love back with my actions and change?


You don't see how being on pins and needles seeking approval displays low value to her?

Let's say "she" isn't the most emotionally healthy person on earth. We can tell she isn't from your testimony. What is she to conclude about a person who seeks the approval of someone who really doesn't like herself?

Will she admire and respect that person as her Captain?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Johnconrad said:


> You don't see how being on pins and needles seeking approval displays low value to her?
> 
> *Let's say "she" isn't the most emotionally healthy person on earth.* *We can tell she isn't from your testimony*. What is she to conclude about a person who seeks the approval of someone who really doesn't like herself?
> 
> Will she admire and respect that person as her Captain?


We can? I must have missed what OP said that makes us be able to tell that his wife isn't emotionally healthy. Unhappy that he isn't pulling his weight at home, and is prone to angry outbursts at times? Yes, she is unhappy about that. But that doesn't mean she isn't emotionally unhealthy. 

In fact, I'd say she is quite emotionally healthy and is standing up for herself. She doesn't want to be taken advantage of and treated like a maid, nor to be his punching bag when he's angry.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

4evernever said:


> I have not had any therapy. I am planning on making a Dr appointment for a consultation on adult ADHD.
> 
> I realize that she sees this as weakness and lack of control. That is what I have been working on the most in recent weeks. Controlling my feelings. Looking at myself and my self worth. I have started writing letters to myself, it helps me step away from the situation and look at it from the outside. The first letter was mostly of how we got here. Looking deep inside and realizing what my fear does to me and how to overcome. *I wrote that one of my biggest fears was abandonement* and how instead of becoming angry and hateful how I have been facing this fear with actions of love toward myself and my wife. This is truly the strength I have versus escaping the fear with anger. I also told myself that I love myself for who I am. The next few letters so far have been looking back on the previous days especially when I am extremely emotional and not able to function without thinking non stop about things. These letters are based on what I was feeling at the time and how did I react.


Fear of abandonment is at the root of your attachment style, which determines so much about the course of your life. (also a root cause of the niceguy syndrome - see No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover... I suspect you are one of the "bad" NG types he talks about).

You are on the right track by writing letters to yourself and working through them. You should also clearly identify to yourself your relationship needs (such as your need to have praise or even acknowledgement when you do accomplish something that benefits the partnership, and your need for clear communication to know how your partner feels and what she needs to seek fulfillment, and on an on).

If your W is patient enough, and willing, then she will see meaningful change in you. and it will become easier to discuss your needs with her. If she is checked out, she won't look back to even notice if you are makig real change. But either way, you are improving your life for YOU, so you will benefit regardless if she chooses to remain married to you or not. I suspect that it will take very little for you to change into the person you want to be, once you get over that fear of abandonment from her, and if you don't take is a personal rejection should she leave.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Johnconrad said:


> You don't see how being on pins and needles seeking approval displays low value to her?
> 
> Let's say "she" isn't the most emotionally healthy person on earth. We can tell she isn't from your testimony. What is she to conclude about a person who seeks the approval of someone who really doesn't like herself?
> 
> Will she admire and respect that person as her Captain?


I do see how that could show low value to her. "How can someone love me if they don't love themselves" Is that what you are getting at?

I do not constantly walk and pins and needles seeking her approval. I do not ponder what she will do or say if I do this or that with every move I make. Do I ask her opinions and at times ask for validation in what I am doing so as to make sure I am on the right path. Absolutely, is this not what you are supposed to doing when sharing your life with someone. I do see your point in will she admire and respect me as her Captain. At times I can be wishy washy in day to day minor decisions.(where to eat, what to do) When it comes to the well being of family I act as a Captain and as a leader. But I also do as any good Captain would and take in consideration the advice of my first mate.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

4evernever said:


> I do see how that could show low value to her. "How can someone love me if they don't love themselves" Is that what you are getting at?
> 
> I do not constantly walk and pins and needles seeking her approval. I do not ponder what she will do or say if I do this or that with every move I make. Do I ask her opinions and at times ask for validation in what I am doing so as to make sure I am on the right path. Absolutely, is this not what you are supposed to doing when sharing your life with someone. I do see your point in will she admire and respect me as her Captain. At times I can be wishy washy in day to day minor decisions.(where to eat, what to do) When it comes to the well being of family I act as a Captain and as a leader. But I also do as any good Captain would and take in consideration the advice of my first mate.


Stop being wishy-washy in those decisions.

She hates that.

Trust me.

She'll respect a man with a plan. Not one who defers to her.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I have to tell you that what you describe is a parent-child relationship. If that is true, then the chances of this relationship lasting is not very good. A healthy marriage is based on equals. When one partner holds a higher position in the relationship, it is a recipe for disaster. She needs to understand that she is your wife and not your mother and vice versa. This needs to be established, regardless if you stay married or not. It is not a lesson you want to pass on to your children.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Get the mmslp book linked to below, better yet download it from amazon.

Google No More Mr Nice Guy free download. That's not about being nice and may not apply but your posts sound like it. Read the first chapter or two in case.

Get His Needs Her Needs and the Five Love Languages.

Helping around the house is more important in your case because she has to do it during the day.

Does she plan on taking the kids with her?

Did you check the phone numbers to see if the numbers actually were for the right people. Cheaters use fake names or friends names to hide who they are really calling. Does she leave her phone lying around or keep it glued to her? 

Does she work with men? Any she used to talk about and suddenly quit talking about?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

We're all guessing but you're there 4e&e and knowledge is power so.
- TAM is knowledge.
- His Needs / Her Needs is knowledge.
- No more Mr nice guy is knowledge.
- MMSLP is knowledge.
- Five Love Languages is knowledge.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Well here are some interesting events. Last night my wife ended up not having to work her extra shift. Instead of her going out with friends she had a friend come over to the house and we all hung out together. We conversed and had some drinks. When the friend left we sat on the couch and one thing lead to another and we ended up being intimate. It was extremely passionate, more passion then in the last few months.

Afterwards she went out on the couch. I sat out there with her for a while and she ended up saying I am sorry. I asked for what and she said for what just happened. I told her there was no reason to be sorry. She mumbled something very low and I asked her to repeat and she did not. I then held her hands and asked her to talk to me. She just mumbled not words, like she wanted to talk but did not at the same time. I kissed her on the head and said good night. This morning while we were getting ready for work she said "I'm sorry for last night." I told her there was nothing to be sorry for and then she said "Thank You for last night".

I know that what happened does not mean everything is ok and we are not going through this anymore and that we are back to were there is no issues. If that were the case we would just end up back here soon. I think she was trying to let me know that by apologizing.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

4evernever said:


> Well here are some interesting events. Last night my wife ended up not having to work her extra shift. Instead of her going out with friends she had a friend come over to the house and we all hung out together. We conversed and had some drinks. When the friend left we sat on the couch and one thing lead to another and we ended up being intimate. It was extremely passionate, more passion then in the last few months.
> 
> Afterwards she went out on the couch. I sat out there with her for a while and she ended up saying I am sorry. I asked for what and she said for what just happened. I told her there was no reason to be sorry. She mumbled something very low and I asked her to repeat and she did not. I then held her hands and asked her to talk to me. She just mumbled not words, like she wanted to talk but did not at the same time. I kissed her on the head and said good night. This morning while we were getting ready for work she said "I'm sorry for last night." I told her there was nothing to be sorry for and then she said "Thank You for last night".
> 
> I know that what happened does not mean everything is ok and we are not going through this anymore and that we are back to were there is no issues. If that were the case we would just end up back here soon. I think she was trying to let me know that by apologizing.


Reading tea leaves isn't going to get you where you want to be.

Get the books Chaparral recommended and dig in.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Her being sexual, and passionate about it, with you is a very good sign she is still attracted to you, and that is the main thing you will need right now to build from. Her compulsive need to apologize to you is concerning, means she feels guilt about it (perhaps because she has her mind set on leaving but isn't entirely checked out, or perhaps she has a sense of loyalty to an OM). So the event was a mixed blessing, however you at least have a good foothold to build things back up again.


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## Johnconrad (Dec 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Antidotes. I have those too… hundreds, probably thousands, of them.


I'd be interested in some of those antidotes.


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

Johnconrad said:


> Reading tea leaves isn't going to get you where you want to be.
> 
> Get the books Chaparral recommended and dig in.


I'm curious about her friends that she goes out with. Married? Single? New friends from work or she has known them long term? A little bell went off in my head. It may be nothing.

Cheers,
V(13)


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Voltaire2013 said:


> I'm curious about her friends that she goes out with. Married? Single? New friends from work or she has known them long term? A little bell went off in my head. It may be nothing.
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


No new friends, usually she goes out with her sisters who are both married or her ling time friend who is married as well. She does go out every couple of months for a girls night out with co workers, just dinner and couple of drinks early evening type thing. What bell went off in your head?


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

New Years went well. We went to her sisters. Played cards and just had fun talking with friends and family. At midnight we all toasted. We hugged and each gave each other a kiss on the cheek. She looked at me and said that was not right actually weird and we kissed. All in all we had a great evening. We listened to some music and danced for what seemed like hours on end. Again Im taking everything in stride and going day by day.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Well things seem to be at a stalemate right now. We have both been ill over the past few days. It has been nice because we have spend so much time together but she still does not talk about us or our issues. 

She has been doing little things here and there lately which shows me she cares. Nothing really out of the ordinary but small things that she was not doing over the past month. She tells me every morning to be careful. Also she was saying yesterday how we should get a new couch. We have needed one for a while so it wasn't surprising to here this. Just that she brought it up especially since she is supposed to be saving up for a place to rent. The other night I went into the room to start a movie and before I even had the chance to ask her if she would like to come in and lay down with me, she said "what are you not going to ask me if I want to join you". 

She is still distant though. We passed as i was leaving a room and she was entering and i just gave her a hug. Nothing huge just a small hug. She did not return the hug. When I looked at her she just looked surprised. I know this is a long journey and there will be good and bad times but this limbo is killing me slowly. I just want to tell her how much I love her and I want to here it from her.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/221290-day-one.html

Check this thread out. I hope you get a lot out of it.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Feeling somewhat overwhelmed today. Yesterday was her birthday. I did well. Made her breakfast before she went into work. She came home afterward and I had a dinner prepared and we celebrated. I did not go overboard with any extravegant gifts or flowers. I gave her a simple birthday card. Not one from husband to wife. The hardest thing was not professing my love. That has been the most difficult recently. I have always been one to say I love you every time I leave and before going to bed. As I have stated before I asked if saying this bothered her and she said it made her feel like an ahole. So I have obliged and kept it in. I have showed her by actions versus words. I guess its just taking it day by day. Working on myself and letting the relationship breathe and build back on its own without force. UGGHHHHHHH!


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/221290-day-one.html
> 
> Check this thread out. I hope you get a lot out of it.


Thank you very much for this. It does help. I hope to follow his lead in working on myself most importantly and letting the relationship take it course. Very inspirational and hopeful story that bad times do not necessarily mean the end but a new beginning.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Still sitting here in Limbo. Working on myself but having trouble over the last few days not wanting to let everything out. When is the right time to talk with her? Is there a right time to talk to her?

Over the last few weeks she has been making comments of "we" should do this to the house and we need to do this etc. All of which would be a substansial use of money that she has saved. She has not brought up anything about her looking for a new place or even the fact she is leaving. Actually her small comments that she makes every now and then seem to be directed to her staying. She has actually said "I love you" when we end a conversation on the phone, only twice. Not sure if it was something just slipping out when she does not want to say it to me or maybe out of old habits. Not sure about the habit thing though since it has only been recently in the last few weeks. I would think if it was out of habit it would have happened earlier in our situation versus after a couple of months.

She has been talking recently about wanting to go back to school. Which I fully support. I tell her to find something that makes her happy to do.

She will sleep in our bed here and there but nothing regular and no intimacy. She does not hug or kiss me only says goodnight. She will call me usually once a day while she is at work. Not every day but more often than not.

Do I just wait and see when she is ready to talk. I feel that maybe she wants me to initiate the conversation. Or maybe thats all in my head. I get overwhelmed just wanting some kind of update into how she feels.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Why does life need to be so confusing. 

So after a few days of stressful work my wife and I our talking and I'm listening really listening instead of trying to fix everything. She makes a statement that maybe she just needs a vacation so she can relax and get away for awhile.

Last fall before all this came out she expressed wanting to go on a girls trip with her friends to Mexico. At the time I was a little defensive and hurt that she wanted to go away for a week on such a grand vacation by herself. When I came across defensive she brought up the point that I was away for 4 months she should be able to have a week. Now mind you I was away for work and not play but looking back it seems pretty selfish of me to not think of her needing individual time to relax and regroup.

So I bring this up when she talked about needing a vacation and said why don't you start planning the Mexico trip with your friend. She seemed really surprised. She has even started making plans with her friend to go this spring. 

The confusion in my head is if she is so determined to move out like she said back in the beginning of December she cannot save up for both a vacation and moving out. Is she starting to rethink moving out maybe a vacation is what she needs so she can evaluate her thoughts.

She really seems to be trying to work on herself. She is still very closed off emotionally but over the last few weeks when I do something that seems to bother her instead of telling me how she would do it or complain how I am doing it she will that I do not do it this way because it bothers her. She also makes comments on how she feels like such a B**** and she is trying to be nicer and happier.

Our oldest was told at the dentist that he is ready for braces. She told me this morning that we need to talk about this tonight. So thoughts abound on what we are going to talk about. Is she going to talk about how we are going to split the cost or just to start a timeline? All I know is that if it goes the way of splitting up the cost it will be very hard not to get upset that she feels she can drag this out so she can save for a vacation save for a new place and save herself the stress and drama of actually going through with this. More than anything I do not want her to move out because I feel that would hurt our chances of actually working on our actual issues of poor communication. But on the other hand I will not be a doormat that lets everything walk over me.

Sometimes I wish I could just stop thinking and be emotionless Id rather not be able to feel happiness than to feel the way I do.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

Well its been a long time since I have posted or updated anything.

I have let actions take their course and things seem to be going well. I have done my part and continue to improve myself. I have lost 40 pounds by exercising and watching what I eat. I have place more focus on my family versus my job and make sure I communicate with my wife.

As for the pending separation I guess I am still not sure on how I stand. All the signs are there that she is working on her to help us. She is going on her well deserved vacation in about a month and when talking about the future it is always plans of us and we actually are starting to dream again. We dream about what we could do, move away start new carreers etc. She has not talked anymore about moving out or her plans to move out. 

As for not knowing where I stand it is because I have not asked. Is there a right time to bring up the subject. Do I initiate or wait until she is ready. I have a good support in some friends and one says she is scared to say or show too much too quickly because she probably feels that it will initiate the cycle of me falling back into my old ways. With this I agree my actions of the past would support this feeling. I guess I am still feeling lost. I want to tell her how much I love her and care for her but I had told her I would not tell her with words but with actions. I have fully done that part. And her actions are showing me some of the same. She sleeps in bed again with me and looks at me with the same look as before. We still do not kiss and have not since New Years Eve. We have been intimate only a couple times since her bringing out her feelings. Part of me feels she is wanting me to make the first move. To express my feelings. Does this sound right. It is funny to feel this way. Almost like we are dating again. Its scary and fun in a way. Any thoughts or advice is appreciated.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

From reading your posts it doesn't sound like you read any of the books recommended for you. 

Is that correct?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The reason I ask is a wife may say she wants a,b, and c while what she really needs is x,y,and z.

The MMSLP book explains the difference. Its linked to below. You just seem to be treading water. That must be taking a toll on you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you go back and re-read Conrad and Elegirl's back and forth, can you see how both are correct despite their apparent disagreement? The lack of a sex life must be killing you. It seems that the occassional nights of intimacy follow social events during which friends or family treated you with respect and made you attractive. If that is a pattern, why don't you seek it more often?

Will be interedting to see if she desires sex after Mexico.

You ought to initiate sex from time to time. 

Is your menopausal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> From reading your posts it doesn't sound like you read any of the books recommended for you.
> 
> Is that correct?


Sigh...
"Nice Guy" written all over his forehead.
Please read those two books they are about $11 each.


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## 4evernever (Dec 23, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Will be interedting to see if she desires sex after Mexico.
> 
> You ought to initiate sex from time to time.
> 
> ...


No she is not menopausal.

I have thought that me making the move would do some good. It would show her by action that she is wanted and desired.

What do you mean by the Mexico comment?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Women on holiday without husbands, do they think about sex? And if so with whom?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

4evernever said:


> I have let actions take their course and things seem to be going well. I have done my part and continue to improve myself. I have lost 40 pounds by exercising and watching what I eat. I have place more focus on my family versus my job and make sure I communicate with my wife.


This is awesome, good for you! 40 lbs is a LOT. Are you lifting weights too?


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Women on holiday without husbands, do they think about sex? And if so with whom?


I've never taken a vacation without H, but I have gone to visit my sister or grandparents for a long weekend. Adults with self-control don't struggle to be faithful just because they're away from their spouses for a few days.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

OP, look up member Marduk. He posted a few years ago a very good set of behaviors that helped him deal with his wife. I'll see if I can find the link for you.



northernlights said:


> Adults with self-control don't struggle to be faithful just because they're away from their spouses for a few days.


Sadly they are becoming a dying breed.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

I found it. It's titled *What I've Learned in the Past Year - A good news story*. Good stuff.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> Sadly they are becoming a dying breed.


I hope it's just that this website gives us all a distorted picture of reality. I've been struggling with my marriage for 5 years, and never ONCE have I been tempted to step outside. I've been flirted with a few times, but it disgusts me that a man would hit on a married woman, and I've promptly shut it down. After spending this much time on TAM, I've started to wonder if something is wrong with me.... maybe I have an abnormally low sex drive? Maybe I just can't be attracted to anyone ever again? Agghh one more thing to worry about!!!


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