# Would you date or marry a man who made less than you?



## EleGirl

This thread is to get the female point of view for the poll in the Men’s Lodge:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/226274-would-you-date-woman-who-made-more-than-you.html

So ladies, would you date or marry a man who made significantly less than you? Why?


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## HappyGilmore

I voted "yes," because I really don't care if I made significantly more than a man I was dating/married to--as long as he is a good person, has a good work ethic, and works hard. I look more at the interior, not money.

In fact, upon completing graduate school, I will be making quite a bit more than my husband--but I don't care. My husband was a little worried about it, asking me what I thought he'd contribute if I was making all the money. I told him "we're married. My money is your money, your money is mine. It doesn't matter who makes more of it, because it all goes to the same place." I hope, over time, that I can continue to prove this to him as we live this out. Granted, he has some past baggage from his prior marriage where his ex-wife told him he was worthless no matter what he did--but she was mentally ill and abusive, so I tell him to consider the source...

In the end, it doesn't matter to me. He has all those good qualities I mentioned up there. He works hard, has a good work ethic, and is wonderful person. We have the utmost respect and admiration for each other--and are madly in love. I feel like I'm the lucky one, to have such a loving and awesome man (he disagrees, saying he's lucky, but I guess that is why our romanticism seems to make people sick).


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## EleGirl

I voted yes. What matters to me is that we are both contributing to the best of our abilities. That's not just with income, I mean in all things.

As we have seen in the last few years, a good paying job is something that can be lost in a heart beat. Many who did lose good paying jobs will never be able to replace them. If we put too much value in earning levels, we lose touch with who a person really is.


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## SimplyAmorous

When we married I made a little more than my husband even.. but if he died on me.. I'd be up the creek if the man was looking for a very independent woman of means..

I'd have enough to "get by" and in what I/we owned to fall back upon.. some life insurance...but not being a career woman.. my aim would be to find a man who was more Traditionally minded -just so he wouldn't look down on me ... I'd find work, but I'd never be "well to do" .. which doesn't bother me personally.

What I would be thinking about.. if we hit it off / wanted to pursue the serious...combining financial situations (marriage?)... I could not be with a frivolous spender.. unless he had money to burn.. (I HATE [email protected]#)...

I wouldn't care if he was a Garbage man.. so long as he was responsible with his money and we got along well, were compatible on a # of fronts in how we look at life and love, laughing & enjoying our time together..


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I said other.
It really depends on a lot of things. 

A man with a low paying job but a good sense of budget, doesn't need many things and lives within his means to me is even better than a man with a high paying job and no sense of how to best use money. 

Work ethic is important to me too. I couldn't be with a man who didn't work full time unless he doing housework at home to make up the extra time, or someone who was not getting paid as much because he was taking too many "sick" days or not working as he should or not getting off his butt to grab better opportunities.


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## heartsbeating

No.

I expect diamonds and expensive handbags.


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## HappyGilmore

heartsbeating said:


> No.
> 
> I expect diamonds and expensive handbags.


:lol: :rofl:


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## Holland

Well I have no problem saying no, I would not seriously date or marry a man that earns less than me. I would have a casual fling with him but never anything serious.

While I am not a "possessions" sort of person, I do enjoy and want a certain lifestyle. We don't buy stuff but we do spend money on life. Most weeks it is around $300 on dinners out and drinks. Long weekends away are common at about $1000 - $3000.
We live at the bottom of the world so travel is expensive, we recently went overseas (2 adults, 5 kids) and that was about $30,000. On the alternate years we have holidays at home so the cost is about $10,000.

We both pay our own way for our own kids, Private school fees, sports etc is expensive here and TBH I prefer to be with a man that has a similar mindset in this regard. 

However being a high earner and being a great man are not mutually exclusive as some seem to think. I simple do not want to forgo one for the other so my choice has always been good men that are high earners.

I can buy my own diamonds and expensive handbags but I like a man that can keep up with me in this regard.


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## JustTired

I make significantly more than my husband. However, he contributes to the household in many ways and he has a strong work ethic. My husband is also good with budgeting and doesn't spend money like crazy - so it works just fine for us.


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## D.H Mosquito

I would like to think in this day and age of equality that the yes vote will trump the no, however experience as i watch other marriages crumble the higher earning woman nearly always kick the lower paid hubby into touch


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## TiggyBlue

I voted yes, when me and my husband got together I earned triple what he did. I think attitude towards money matters more, if someone will spend every spare penny as soon as it enters the house then they aren't the man for me (regardless of their paycheck).

My husband has always carried his weight in the relationship and is a very kind/loyal/fair/honest person, these factors are much more important to me than earnings.


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## Racer

Man, where are you women? The vast majority I’ve ever seen or talked to about this is that “yes” answer is chalked full of conditions. It’s tied closely in with that respect thing. Various things I hear around the campfire through my wife… “He lacks ambition…he loves what he does, but it doesn’t pay much and he turns down opportunity.” “He is unmotivated.” “He still doesn’t do his fair share around the house or with the kids.” “Being a waiter at 21 was fine… but we’re 28 now and I want a family.” Sort of that American Beauty thing where if he quits the job he hates and gets something he likes, regardless of whether or not the family really needs the money, he’s perceived as a loser. I know a greens keeper at great golf course who loves his job and the perks… His wife left him, he has trouble finding women because a mid-40’s ‘lawnmower’ isn’t ‘serious relationship’ material. Several have discovered they need to lie or omit income and ‘embellish’ their job function on online dating profiles just to get a response. And on and on…. 

4 divorces due to this that I know of. No idea how many women have passed over really great guys because they automatically dismiss their profile based on income, education level or job function. Basically, you have to see your spouse/serious boyfriend as successful however you can play that in your head (regardless of gender). 

Btw; My wife is currently making 4x what I do (bad couple years for me). I feel the pressure, the snarky remarks, the condescending remarks from her friends whom she’s obviously venting to, the non-existent sex life, etc.. Erased from memory is the nice six-digit income I brought in for the last 15 years, the licenses I hold, the 9 years of schooling, etc.. Now I’m a deadbeat just living off of my wife. Thing is: I'm still the same guy only their perceptions changed entirely due to job status and income.


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## heartsbeating

JustTired said:


> I make significantly more than my husband. However, he contributes to the household in many ways and he has a strong work ethic. My husband is also good with budgeting and doesn't spend money like crazy - so it works just fine for us.


Joking aside, my husband earns significantly more than me but I'm more the one that considers our spending habits. We were invited to dinner with a group of friends. I looked up the menu ahead of time and it was fancy-pants pricing. Hubs suggested we go out to breakfast the next morning, the two of us. It's his fave meal to go out for and it was a nice idea but he caught my hesitation. I shared that I was concerned about how much we'd be spending at dinner (we don't itemize meals, we just contribute evenly to the bill regardless of who ordered what), so we came to the agreement that if dinner came in under a certain amount, then we'd go to breakfast the next morning but otherwise we'd skip having breakfast out. The bill came in exactly to the amount we'd hoped, which meant we also went out to breakfast. Mental fist-pump. And it was lovely! It's the same wiring that has me putting birthday money towards a new bag even though I could normally afford it. 

I keep a vigilant eye on our cash flow. In the past we've had moments of frustrating the hell out of one another but along the way we have discovered the balance between us. He's taught me to loosen up at times and enjoy, as well as taking calculated risk to earn money, while I think I've shown him what it means to budget and take a more conservative approach at times. 

The traits I saw in him when he wasn't earning much, haven't changed. It's just that now they're combined with a bit of growth and some luck and that has helped to get him to his current position - his salary, what he learns, the type of people he's connected with and how he progresses for himself (not to be misinterpreted as a title or status). Down the track he'd rather be doing something completely left-field to this and it's unlikely he'd be earning what he currently does but when he's ready to do that, he knows he'll have my full support.

I don't think there's a cut and dry answer with the question. I see drive, motivation and curiosity to be attractive qualities. Not to be confused with status. Factor in how much the house-hold needs? What are the goals of the couple? I also wouldn't assume if someone is earning less that they don't have assets or wealth behind them. Just as I wouldn't assume that someone displaying they have money actually means that they do. Jobs come and go but it's the character that stays fairly consistent.


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## heartsbeating

Mr.Nail said:


> Bravo! Ele,
> 
> But the question I had for the Ladies was "would you Marry a man Who can cook better than you?"


I did.

Mind you, it wouldn't take much to cook better than me... but he's a great cook.  
I do make a great cup of tea though. Hubs got a real catch here. Ahem.


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## moxy

Yes. I don't care about a man's earning potential as much as I care about his interest in providing affection and sex and companionship to me (I'd reciprocate).


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## ScarletBegonias

I voted yes because I am currently married to someone who makes less than me.All our money goes to the same places and we share everything so it doesn't matter.He has the potential to make more than me but he's comfortable where he works and has hours similar to mine.Even if he didn't have that potential,it doesn't matter.As long as we're comfortable and have enough to enjoy life it makes no difference which person's name is on the bigger paycheck.

Sometimes we joke about it and he tells me one day I'll get resentful being his sugar momma and throw him out.Of course I respond by telling him I couldn't ever get rid of him bc he's too good in bed. 

It's only a big deal if you make it a big deal.


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## chillymorn

lol after 20 yrs of making more than your husband all the no's might become ......get the F out you losser.

just sayin...


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## soccermom2three

I voted no. The keyword for me was "significantly".


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## Allesar

I make three times what my husband makes. It bothers me not a whit. he has a career that he loves and it sgreat at but it's a low-paying career. He and I are partners in life, in parenting, and our assets are OUR assets. There are so many other qualities that matter in life beyond income.


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## avanicole92

It wouldn't matter to me. As long as I'm happy with him and he treats me good and he's not cheating, I'm good. There are too many bad men out there to not take advantage of a good man just because he makes less than you.


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## WandaJ

When I met my husband, he hardly had anything. We were both always pretending thta it was my turn to pay for drinks 
In terms of money, I've got big return on that investement. Came with the price though...


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Yes of course. If you asked this in a socialist country people would look at you like you had two heads. Really, wtf! There are better things to get married for than income. If someone would base a marriage decision on income then I feel sorry for them. Especially if the income disappears hahahahaha.


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## RandomDude

I call BS on poll results 

But hey then again, there's a different demographic here on this forum so the results here can be plausible


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## Miss Taken

I said "no". 

However, that's not so black and white. In the event of lay off, market crash etc. I would support my spouse even if that meant he never earned the same amount of money as he did before. The same goes with illness and/or disability if he could no longer work, then I would support him. 

I would also and have also been the main breadwinner while my current spouse pursued a higher education. I would do that again in a heartbeat because it benefits our family in the long term for a short-term sacrifice. He's also done the same for me so I could go to college which, when I am working (and I do plan to go back to work) means I earn more than I otherwise would have and it benefits our entire family.

In the event that he died or we split up, I would not consider a man that earned less than I did so long as my children were still my dependents. Once they were grown and that man didn't want any more children then it wouldn't be as big of a factor. However, if I was a single mom, my first priorities would be providing for my kids and saving for my retirement, not supporting a man.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Miss Taken said:


> However, if I was a single mom, my first priorities would be providing for my kids and saving for my retirement, not supporting a man.


Hmmm, if you're supporting your kids and in a relationship, you probably should make more money than the guy, because you're supporting yourself and your kids, and he's just supporting himself? We're not talking about deadbeats here I don't think just making more income than your partner. A single parent needs to make more than a partner with no kids, that way the amount that's left over for them to contribute to the relationship funds (i.e. entertainment, etc.) is about equal.


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## Miss Taken

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Hmmm, if you're supporting your kids and in a relationship, you probably should make more money than the guy, because you're supporting yourself and your kids, and he's just supporting himself? We're not talking about deadbeats here I don't think just making more income than your partner. A single parent needs to make more than a partner with no kids, that way the amount that's left over for them to contribute to the relationship funds (i.e. entertainment, etc.) is about equal.


Whose to say that he's just supporting himself? If I was to get married to someone else/forge a life with someone new I would most likely prefer to do it with a man who had his own biological children. Second to that, a man that wants to have natural kids with me. I can't really see myself with a man who hasn't had/doesn't want kids. I also can't see myself as the sole provider for a blended family whether he brings kids into that family or not - of course my kids would be my responsibility, and that of my ex spouse (supposing it was a split/not death). 

Even if he didn't have kids, making more than or at least the same as I do is not a huge feat. I'm not Oprah lol. My qualifications/past earnings and future put me right in middle class. It's not hard to reach that level of income. I don't think I'm asking too much to require a man whose income puts him in middle class or above.


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## JCD

A question:

How many of you who say it does not matter

a) ARE in such a relationship

b) ENTERED into such a relationship from the beginning (i.e. his prospects did no lessen after the match was made)

and 

c) entered such a relationship where you did not have a sense he was 'investment material'? (i.e. marrying a doctor, lawyer, etc)


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

JCD said:


> A question:
> 
> How many of you who say it does not matter
> 
> a) ARE in such a relationship
> 
> b) ENTERED into such a relationship from the beginning (i.e. his prospects did no lessen after the match was made)
> 
> and
> 
> c) entered such a relationship where you did not have a sense he was 'investment material'? (i.e. marrying a doctor, lawyer, etc)


a) Yes.
b) Yes.
c) After age 50, this is unlikely to change.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Miss Taken said:


> Whose to say that he's just supporting himself? If I was to get married to someone else/forge a life with someone new I would most likely prefer to do it with a man who had his own biological children. Second to that, a man that wants to have natural kids with me. I can't really see myself with a man who hasn't had/doesn't want kids. I also can't see myself as the sole provider for a blended family whether he brings kids into that family or not - of course my kids would be my responsibility, and that of my ex spouse (supposing it was a split/not death).
> 
> Even if he didn't have kids, making more than or at least the same as I do is not a huge feat. I'm not Oprah lol. My qualifications/past earnings and future put me right in middle class. It's not hard to reach that level of income. I don't think I'm asking too much to require a man whose income puts him in middle class or above.


I can see you're worried about a deadbeat, but the question was about income disparity, vs. marrying someone who had no income at all. 

Women SHOULD earn more than men. First of all, we need to cover the times we can't earn income because of kids, either childbearing or if the kid/s have some kind of disability (which happens) and also because we live longer, so we need to have more money set aside for retirement and also paid into Social Security. We are also more prone to being left with kids for whatever reason our society has for that, and so need money for supporting the kids in that kind of a crisis, or at least to hire an attorney. Kids + lack of income = vulnerability. Women should make sure they have income earning potential before having kids or partnering up. Most socialist countries have a mind set where this is clearly understood, as a result these countries have better support systems and laws for parents of both genders as well as for kids. (Paid parental leave, better and cheaper child care, education including higher education, health care, unemployment and disability and social welfare benefits, etc.) So in those places, women can earn equal to men, no need to earn more. But in the US, yes, a women should try to earn more. It's to her advantage, if she wants to have equality, then she needs to earn more. 

So long as women want to only marry men who make more than they do, (and in my belief to subjugate and dis-empower themselves due to fear of being taken advantage of in some way or worse for fear of emasculating men who should feel free to be masculine as they want whatever wage they might make) we will be trying to impose upon men those responsibilities that belong to all genders combined.


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## JCD

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> a) Yes.
> b) Yes.
> c) After age 50, this is unlikely to change.


I believe you. I still think the numbers may come down quite a bit 

It would be an interesting experiment.

Take two dating sites and post the same gentleman, the only difference being a revealed income level and seeing how many 'hits' he got in comparison.


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## JCD

Google beat me to it:



> For a man, each dollar more that he made increased his chances of getting a response from a woman. But high earners — those that made upwards of $150,000 — were 82% more likely than men that made $20,000 or less to get contacted on AYI.com.
> 
> For a woman, the amount she made was irrelevant UNLESS she made more than $100,000. Women with six figure salaries were much more likely to get a response from a man — so much so that women on AYI.com that earned $150,000 annually were 65% more likely than women that earned $20,000 to get contacted.
> 
> ...
> 
> People who choose “Rather Not Say” on their online dating profile were assumed to be lower earners. They had the same contact rates as men who made under $20,000 and for women that made under $60,000. However, men that opted to leave this field completely blank on their profile were contacted the same as those that made up to $40,000 while women were contacted the same as those that made up to $100,000.




This is one website and hardly scientific.

And the devil is in the details. There is a graphic which is truly huge which I would not post. There is only a *6 percent difference* in contact rates between a guy who makes $20,000 and one who makes $150,000. Eleven percent for the low earner, 17% for the highest. Pretty pathetic rates of response. Women favor a wallet...but not so much. Not as much as men dream.

And none of this references how much the woman makes who contacts the man.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

JCD said:


> There is only a *6 percent difference* in contact rates between a guy who makes $20,000 and one who makes $150,000. Eleven percent for the low earner, 17% for the highest. Pretty pathetic rates of response. Women favor a wallet...but not so much. Not as much as men dream.
> .


It might not actually be about the money, but the effects of the money: better camera to take a photo, better grooming, better health due to access to better food, background of the photos etc. vs. just the income.

Some other studies have shown that better looks equate to higher income. To further complicate things. 

And with numbers that close, given the possible confounders, can't even say it's more or less.


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## Personal

According to the stats on such things my wife's renumeration for the past few years is within the top 10% of incomes in Australia. I would have to earn a lot of coin to earn what she does.

That said, a couple of weeks ago she received a redundancy termination notice indicating she will no longer be required from the end of the year, so her income may change significantly when that happens.

Bizarrely her duties and role are still required and her employer is planning on replacing her with someone below her that they intend to pay less. Consequently she is not letting this go and has sought legal assistance and union help as well. Regardless of what comes from that, she is now applying for other employment and has already been asked if she would like to teach at a TAFE college.


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## nam3

I have. And I didn't even think twice. The income gap is not that high. Plus, I know he will make more soon and past me. But either way, I'm fine with it as long as he continues to help me in paying the bills and shows responsibility.


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## JCD

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> It might not actually be about the money, but the effects of the money: better camera to take a photo, better grooming, better health due to access to better food, background of the photos etc. vs. just the income.
> 
> Some other studies have shown that better looks equate to higher income. To further complicate things.
> 
> And with numbers that close, given the possible confounders, can't even say it's more or less.


Yeah. There is a lot of noise in a poll like that. Plus dating services...somehow I doubt they are using absolute best statisticians on this data analysis,

But that being said, I very much doubt it is the camera


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## Miss Taken

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I can see you're worried about a deadbeat, but the question was about income disparity, vs. marrying someone who had no income at all.
> 
> Women SHOULD earn more than men. First of all, we need to cover the times we can't earn income because of kids, either childbearing or if the kid/s have some kind of disability (which happens) and also because we live longer, so we need to have more money set aside for retirement and also paid into Social Security. We are also more prone to being left with kids for whatever reason our society has for that, and so need money for supporting the kids in that kind of a crisis, or at least to hire an attorney. Kids + lack of income = vulnerability. Women should make sure they have income earning potential before having kids or partnering up. Most socialist countries have a mind set where this is clearly understood, as a result these countries have better support systems and laws for parents of both genders as well as for kids. (Paid parental leave, better and cheaper child care, education including higher education, health care, unemployment and disability and social welfare benefits, etc.) So in those places, women can earn equal to men, no need to earn more. But in the US, yes, a women should try to earn more. It's to her advantage, if she wants to have equality, then she needs to earn more.
> 
> So long as women want to only marry men who make more than they do, (and in my belief to subjugate and dis-empower themselves due to fear of being taken advantage of in some way or worse for fear of emasculating men who should feel free to be masculine as they want whatever wage they might make) we will be trying to impose upon men those responsibilities that belong to all genders combined.


I think I understood the question. I'm not worried about deadbeats, I'm sure I know well enough to avoid them. 

I am also from what many conservatives and republicans would consider to be a "socialist" country (Canada). We have many of the social supports in place that you discussed here. Still, I would prefer my spouse earn as much or more than I do. While not a gold-digger, I do admire men who provide for their families. While not a hapless subservient woman - I am educated and could provide for myself and children, I still appreciate more of a traditional family and family roles. That's all me though... and luckily the man I am with.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Hmmmmm $20,000 here would be a minimum wage job or a part time job. 

Unless I knew the reason for the job choice, it would change how I felt. 

I know the job market where I live. There are plenty of opportunities for the age group I would be dating. There's not a lot of reasons a man late 30s-40s needs to work min. wage. 

It's not about money, I make enough to support myself and kids. It's just life goals, skills, education, job passion, etc that _could _be incompatible.

I've always been attracted to trades workers. They can make big $$ where I live, it can also be up and down. I don't care about the money, I like the skills and passion behind it.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

My reasons are more practical. Sometimes I like to take a break from work either entirely or partially. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If I don't have high standards for a guy's income earning, and don't judge a partner based on his income, then it works the other way around, too. I don't want to hear how my decision is affecting his bottom line, the same way he'd never hear how his decision (to earn or not to earn, or how he spends or doesn't) affects me. 

Equality works both ways. I reserve the right to intermittent dirt-bag lifestyle periods, same as I reserve the right to work full time and enjoy the benefits of that effort.

It's not in me to deny someone a leisurely dirt-bag life existence entirely or from time to time. I enjoy it too much myself.


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## Miss Taken

We do have a bit of a double standard going on here but it's only a problem if one or both feels it's a problem. Sometimes the Gander doesn't resent or want what the Goose has. I find that's the case with us.

I can work full time or be a SAHM and he would be okay with that. So in those ways I do have more choices than he does. Although I don't limit his choices; (they self-imposed on his end), I am fully aware and feel fortunate that they line up with my preferences.


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## ScarletBegonias

JCD said:


> A question:
> 
> How many of you who say it does not matter
> 
> a) ARE in such a relationship
> 
> b) ENTERED into such a relationship from the beginning (i.e. his prospects did no lessen after the match was made)
> 
> and
> 
> c) entered such a relationship where you did not have a sense he was 'investment material'? (i.e. marrying a doctor, lawyer, etc)


a.yes
b.yes
c.I'm not sure I'm understanding this question correctly. when we started dating he had the job he has now.nothing has changed. So I guess I didn't have a sense of him being investment material bc I knew his job was his chosen career already.


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## WandaJ

I think the other good question is " Would you marry a man with less education than you?" My husband had less money when we met, but was highly intelligent, studying in prestige school with big potential for the future. I need a man that is at least as smart as me, if not smarter.


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## RoseAglow

JCD said:


> A question:
> 
> How many of you who say it does not matter
> 
> a) ARE in such a relationship
> 
> b) ENTERED into such a relationship from the beginning (i.e. his prospects did no lessen after the match was made)
> 
> and
> 
> c) entered such a relationship where you did not have a sense he was 'investment material'? (i.e. marrying a doctor, lawyer, etc)


A. Yes, I am the "breadwinner" in the family. 

B. Yes, in fact the disparity was quite a bit more extreme when we were dating and got married.

C. I was not supporting my DH through medical or law school. When we first started dating he has just started a five-year apprenticeship to be an electrician. 

So, I did know that over time he was being trained to earn a decent, middle-class salary. However, we always knew that I would be the one making more money (assuming we both stay in the same careers.) 

Also important: my husband's income is needed! He plays a significant role in our financial well-being. We could squeak by on my salary alone if needed- we'd have to sell our house and seriously downgrade on my many items- but we could do it. But for us to meet our current and future plans, we need him to be working.

So I don't know whether this line- the line of the husband's income being needed or not- is what differentiates "significant".


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

WandaJ said:


> I think the other good question is " Would you marry a man with less education than you?" My husband had less money when we met, but was highly intelligent, studying in prestige school with big potential for the future. I need a man that is at least as smart as me, if not smarter.


I think this is a good question too. 

For me less educated is fine, it depends what they know. I don't need, or even want really, book smarts but I find knowledge in other areas sexy (like knowing how to fix things, understanding politics, knowing tech stuff and tools, street smarts)


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## RoseAglow

WandaJ said:


> I think the other good question is " Would you marry a man with less education than you?" My husband had less money when we met, but was highly intelligent, studying in prestige school with big potential for the future. I need a man that is at least as smart as me, if not smarter.


My husband has a GED and has completed a trade apprenticeship; I've got a master's degree. But this is irrelevant, my husband is considerably smarter than I am. Thankfully!!!! I am reasonably intelligent, but I trust my husband's judgment, he is my strongest and most-trusted adviser.


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## WandaJ

RoseAglow said:


> My husband has a GED and has completed a trade apprenticeship; I've got a master's degree. But this is irrelevant, my husband is considerably smarter than I am. Thankfully!!!! I am reasonably intelligent, but I trust my husband's judgment, he is my strongest and most-trusted adviser.


Agreed. It should be more about "less intelligent", instead of "less educated" There are a lot of smart people who for whatever reasons didn't finish college.


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## norajane

When I was younger and still considering if I might have kids one day, I would have voted no. If I'd had kids, I wouldn't have wanted to be the one mostly responsible for our joint income as I would have likely had to take some salary hits of one kind or another as a mother, would have maybe taken some time off while the babies were little, passed up promotions (and raises) due to not having the time to put in, etc.

Nowadays, my SO makes less than I do and it really doesn't matter, mostly because both of us make a healthy income and he's a more active investor anyway. I could lose my job tomorrow, he could switch jobs tomorrow, anything could happen to change our individual incomes.


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## RoseAglow

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Women SHOULD earn more than men. First of all, we need to cover the times we can't earn income because of kids, either childbearing or if the kid/s have some kind of disability (which happens) and also because we live longer, so we need to have more money set aside for retirement and also paid into Social Security. We are also more prone to being left with kids for whatever reason our society has for that, and so need money for supporting the kids in that kind of a crisis, or at least to hire an attorney. *Kids + lack of income = vulnerability*. Women should make sure they have income earning potential before having kids or partnering up. Most socialist countries have a mind set where this is clearly understood, as a result these countries have better support systems and laws for parents of both genders as well as for kids. (Paid parental leave, better and cheaper child care, education including higher education, health care, unemployment and disability and social welfare benefits, etc.) So in those places, women can earn equal to men, no need to earn more. But in the US, yes, a women should try to earn more. *It's to her advantage, if she wants to have equality, then she needs to earn more. *
> 
> So long as women want to only marry men who make more than they do, (and in my belief to subjugate and dis-empower themselves due to fear of being taken advantage of in some way or worse for fear of emasculating men who should feel free to be masculine as they want whatever wage they might make) we will be trying to impose upon men those responsibilities that belong to all genders combined.


:iagree:

There are plenty of women are feel safe and totally at ease being financially dependent on their husband; financial support is a common need in women. I am not comfortable saying that their perspective and preference is wrong.

But I am comfortable saying that they are taking a huge risk. *Kids + lack of income = vulnerability* In fact, I would simply say "Lack of income=vulnerability. For me, personally, I could never willingly take that risk.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

RoseAglow said:


> :iagree:
> 
> There are plenty of women are feel safe and totally at ease being financially dependent on their husband; financial support is a common need in women. I am not comfortable saying that their perspective and preference is wrong.
> 
> But I am comfortable saying that they are taking a huge risk. *Kids + lack of income = vulnerability* In fact, I would simply say "Lack of income=vulnerability. For me, personally, I could never willingly take that risk.


Well, definitely. I work in mental health, so I know the prevalence/incidence of various conditions that can cause the source of income (from man/husband) to stop/diminish and for divorce to occur. This is unpleasant. Also insurance companies don't always pay out, i.e. for suicide or other instances, such as extreme sports even rock climbing. And if he has some kind of car accident, even if it's just a simple human error, and hurts someone and then dies or doesn't, so long income. So long insurance. A third party could put a lien on any insurance proceeds. It's just so dicey, to put your bets on another person, even if he is honest and dependable, sh*t happens. People think they have all their bases covered, they don't.


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## RoseAglow

EleGirl said:


> This thread is to get the female point of view for the poll in the Men’s Lodge:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/226274-would-you-date-woman-who-made-more-than-you.html
> 
> So ladies, would you date or marry a man who made significantly less than you? Why?


I keep rolling this question around in my head.

In my earlier post I was wondering whether or not "significantly less" meant that I couldn't rely on his income to help us; but really there is no point to that. He could be making $5k a year and that could take our family to Disney, so really any contribution is welcome.

Maybe this is more relevant to the men's question: "Would you marry a woman who made significantly more than you" to mean, "Would you marry a woman who made so much more money than you that your income was not needed?" Which, of course, is another thread entirely.

I have no qualms having married a man who makes less than me. But perhaps this is because he does make a decent salary and he ticks all the other boxes. 

But then- he just recently had four months of being laid off. At that time I seriously considered looking for a new job; if I could get another $30k/year we would not need his salary at all. I was fine with him continuing to play House Husband in between union projects. 

We did discuss him leaving the union and starting elsewhere, but it was just as viable (and an easier route) for me to up the income. 

So I think for me, personally, it's a security issue. If I am making enough to cover all bases and to keep our family financially secure, then I really don't need him to make much money. 

Mostly though, I have to be making some bucks. My feeling of financial safety comes from me. That is my personal issue- I can't think of any time when I would feel OK with myself if I weren't bringing in an income. Even on maternity leave I was bringing in something and had bulked up savings ahead of time.

So, I can easily be with a man who makes less then me. This is especially true if I am bringing in all the household needs to run well and to put some in savings. However, I'd want the man to have the skills so that he could cover us if needed.

I would not marry a man who had the potential/ability to make only $20k/year. I'd take $40k/year though, especially if he was a hard worker and I knew he could increase it if needed. After $50k year it's all gravy, at least in my current situation at this time. 

It's an interesting question.


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## ellaenchanted

Hmm... To be completely honest. I would consider it although I would avoid it... I've had bad experience I was in a relationship and was living with someone that made me pay for EVERYTHING and I was his financial support. Everything was on me, while I was working my ass off he would be out with his friends. He would find a job and quit and this process would happen every 3 months. 
He thought that him earning money wouldn't matter just because I run a few businesses and make quite good money. 

It depends on the person.... I would definitely try to avoid it though because after that relationship I lost everything money wise and to be honest I've worked way too hard and have mentally mind phucked myself to get where I am. 

Every man is different though


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## Pooh Bear

heartsbeating said:


> No.
> 
> I expect diamonds and expensive handbags.


Why can't you buy those things for yourself?


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## Pooh Bear

Definitely. I'm attracted to someone who is passionate about what he is doing.


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## heartsbeating

Pooh Bear said:


> Why can't you buy those things for yourself?


It was a joke.


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## Pooh Bear

Racer said:


> Man, where are you women? The vast majority I’ve ever seen or talked to about this is that “yes” answer is chalked full of conditions. It’s tied closely in with that respect thing. Various things I hear around the campfire through my wife… “He lacks ambition…he loves what he does, but it doesn’t pay much and he turns down opportunity.” “He is unmotivated.” “He still doesn’t do his fair share around the house or with the kids.” “Being a waiter at 21 was fine… but we’re 28 now and I want a family.” Sort of that American Beauty thing where if he quits the job he hates and gets something he likes, regardless of whether or not the family really needs the money, he’s perceived as a loser. I know a greens keeper at great golf course who loves his job and the perks… His wife left him, he has trouble finding women because a mid-40’s ‘lawnmower’ isn’t ‘serious relationship’ material. Several have discovered they need to lie or omit income and ‘embellish’ their job function on online dating profiles just to get a response. And on and on….
> 
> 4 divorces due to this that I know of. No idea how many women have passed over really great guys because they automatically dismiss their profile based on income, education level or job function. Basically, you have to see your spouse/serious boyfriend as successful however you can play that in your head (regardless of gender).
> 
> Btw; My wife is currently making 4x what I do (bad couple years for me). I feel the pressure, the snarky remarks, the condescending remarks from her friends whom she’s obviously venting to, the non-existent sex life, etc.. Erased from memory is the nice six-digit income I brought in for the last 15 years, the licenses I hold, the 9 years of schooling, etc.. Now I’m a deadbeat just living off of my wife. Thing is: I'm still the same guy only their perceptions changed entirely due to job status and income.


I'm sorry that you are feeling disrespected. Is it your wife who is doing that or just her friends? Because they really don't matter, it is only your wife who matters.

I want more for myself than being a waitress or a greens keeper at a golf course and I would expect the person that I am with to want more than that. So yeah, I don't expect someone to make a certain income. And if I make more than my husband that is fine. But I do expect him to be really curious about the world and have some ambition. I like intellectual guys. I have worked food service to get by and there are smart people in food service. But really smart people don't stay in food service because they starve intellectually. My currency is intelligence. And he has to be a good person. Without those two things, I am not really interested.


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## vms

No, I don't think I would. He'd be making minimum wage or maybe $1 over it if he made less than I did at my last job. I made less than $20K a year working full time. If he made less, that would keep us below the poverty line. Not being poor is important to me. I don't care about having expensive things, but I do care about not living paycheck to paycheck in a two-earner household by choice vs circumstance. Been there, done that, and when expensive emergencies happen, you're screwed for years to come because you can't save much when you're barely treading water. Since I have no secondary education, my own earning potential is limited. 

If he did make less than me, I'd expect him to be doing something to better himself so he could earn more, like be attending college while working. Which is exactly what is about to happen here. My Husband will be out of a job in April. We will have income from the guard, but we'll be taking about a 70% paycut while he goes back to school for a year. It'll be hard, but we'll make it between the guard pay, savings, and whatever work I can find. If he had just been like "Oh well, getting laid off, guess I'll work at McDonald's now," I'd have lost all respect for him. A man in that position, by choice, is not someone I'd respect enough to begin dating, were I single. 

Security is very important to me and I feel for more secure with a financially stable partner. I'm not a feminist to the point where i feel like i shouldn't expect a man to provide for me. That's exactly what I expect a man to do - provide for his family to the best of his ability. If he wouldn't, then he wouldn't deserve us.


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## Pooh Bear

Mr Useless said:


> I would like to think in this day and age of equality that the yes vote will trump the no, however experience as i watch other marriages crumble the higher earning woman nearly always kick the lower paid hubby into touch



Are there other reasons she scould be "kicking him to the curb"?


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## Pooh Bear

heartsbeating said:


> It was a joke.


Oh, sorry. Hard to read sarcasm.


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## Starstarfish

Necro posting. 



> “He lacks ambition…he loves what he does, but it doesn’t pay much and he turns down opportunity.” “He is unmotivated.”


As a woman who has had these qualms about her husband (go dig up my thread if you like) the issue here isn't always about the money itself. It's about wanting to feel like someone doesn't want to -stagnate-. When they express concern about your neighborhood and your school district but loving what they do is more important than addressing it because -you- should be the one to fix it.

When husbands post here about women with the same attitude ... refuse to work, IE that they want to do want they love - be a SAHM, work part-time, things that don't pay much - are people generally sympathetic or understanding? Do people see "I love what I do" as a legitimate reason for having continual financial stress and difficulties in the name of happiness? Is it the right of one partner to obtain happiness and the expense of the stress and worry of the other? 

If men don't like the idea of unmotivated wives who pursue "happiness" regardless of the consequences, why is it expected women would want any difference? I mean - isn't "I'm just not happy anymore" a big ILYBINILWY thing? Do you want someone who chases "happiness" above all else? Or someone who sees your relationship as a dual effort towards mutual goal building?



> I don't care about having expensive things, but I do care about not living paycheck to paycheck in a two-earner household by choice vs circumstance.


Also this. 

So do I care about how -much- he's making, no. But do I care that both of us are working to the best of our ability to improve our family and pay off our debts - yes.


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## EnjoliWoman

I said No because making significantly less than me isn't making a whole lot! Not because I couldn't respect him, but because if he doesn't make close to what I make then we probably aren't compatible in our life goals and interests.

That being said, it's certainly NOT a deal breaker. I have gone out with men who made the same who were much more educated and worldly and interesting - on par with someone who typically earns quite a bit more. And have expressed interest in some who made less than I. Usually those who make less do so because they are self employed and it fluctuates because they are in a field where the work is seasonal or sporatic (photographers on assignment, etc.) but they are certainly interesting people and work hard and I would still be very interested in them.

So I can't be a "sugar momma" but tend to not have a lot in common with unskilled workers.


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## Fitnessfan

How much a man makes never entered my mind as a factor of dating him or not. Was he nice to me? Nice to others? Funny? Driven? Was there chemistry? Those are questions I would think about but never how much does he make.


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## NextTimeAround

I answered "no." And so I often worry that I may be marked as a gold digger. But in my mid 50s, having cancer in remission, having been the trailing spouse for a while, can really take a toll on your earnings prospects, and therefore your real earnings.

I do have a good foundation financially as I weathered several years of (near) unemployment and kept up with my (low) monthly mortgage payment.

I did date a guy from 2004 to 2006, I could have sworn he was trying to god dig me. ie, had bright ideas about his moving in with me, he could pay something towards the rent and then I could make a lot of money. As I was in the thick of things with my own business (ok, single contract and looking to expand) he then offered his home in another country as an office (without saying what the running costs were or who would pay them). 

I try not to feel bad about this. Since I read here that there are loads of women who make good money and would not think twice about dating a man who made a lot less, well, I shouldn't feel bad. If a guy made less than I do, we would both be in the poor house.

The other thing that is good is that I have given up all hope for a "corporate" job. I am happy to see my job as running a household; maintaining our social life and so on. I am learning some software on the side.... just incase. My husband has a great job, he makes good money and is still home by 6pm every day. 

the other thing about a guy making less than I ....... I have tried it in the past and somehow it didn't work. Maybe I am not selfless enough but sometimes I felt as if I was being used. I'm not comfortable with the thought of picking up the tab more than 50% of the time, only to see that when my guy has some extra money, he is happy to spend it on someone else (oh, just this one time, you know.......)


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## Anon1111

There's what people say and what people do.

Few women will admit that they're not attracted to men who make less. 

They will dress it up with words like "he lacks ambition" or "I need someone I can depend on" but the result is the same.

If you are not making significantly more money than your woman you better be bringing something else big to the table. 

Maybe you are successful in a field that does not pay much but success in that field brings you a certain status. Or maybe you are physically more attractive by a significant margin.

If you don't have something like this it will become a problem at some point.


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## NextTimeAround

I would also like to bring posters attention to this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...42713-why-would-he-stingy-his-girlfriend.html

in which many of the male posters claimed that when they were in love, they were happy to pay for their partner / future wife / whatever.


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## DTO

vms said:


> No, I don't think I would. He'd be making minimum wage or maybe $1 over it if he made less than I did at my last job. I made less than $20K a year working full time. If he made less, that would keep us below the poverty line. Not being poor is important to me. I don't care about having expensive things, but I do care about not living paycheck to paycheck in a two-earner household by choice vs circumstance. Been there, done that, and when expensive emergencies happen, you're screwed for years to come because you can't save much when you're barely treading water. Since I have no secondary education, my own earning potential is limited.
> 
> If he did make less than me, I'd expect him to be doing something to better himself so he could earn more, like be attending college while working. Which is exactly what is about to happen here. My Husband will be out of a job in April. We will have income from the guard, but we'll be taking about a 70% paycut while he goes back to school for a year. It'll be hard, but we'll make it between the guard pay, savings, and whatever work I can find. If he had just been like "Oh well, getting laid off, guess I'll work at McDonald's now," I'd have lost all respect for him. A man in that position, by choice, is not someone I'd respect enough to begin dating, were I single.
> 
> Security is very important to me and I feel for more secure with a financially stable partner. I'm not a feminist to the point where i feel like i shouldn't expect a man to provide for me. That's exactly what I expect a man to do - provide for his family to the best of his ability. If he wouldn't, then he wouldn't deserve us.


I read this thread (and your post in particular) as a guy looking to date a few years after my divorce. I'm not young and would like a serious relationship at some point, so it's nice to read about what ladies want.

And, I do better than most financially - make good money, have a nice house & nice car, etc. and I can provide that stability. Yet, I work hard for what I have and if I am going to provide the security (which means making do with less myself) I want to feel like that person deserves me.

So, the question I have for you is what do you feel you bring to the table? I don't mean it to sound snarky. I just simply read that your education is limited but you expect your husband to better himself, and that you would not marry someone making less than you, and a guy who could not do so would not deserve you.

Another way of asking the question is that if you expect a guy to do the heavy lifting financially, what do you take charge in / sacrifice in response to his sacrifice?

Not judging, just curious. Personally, if support is something I'm bringing to the table (meaning a partner is relying on me to provide for her) I'm going to expect her to sacrifice equally in some other way. 

Thanks!


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## NextTimeAround

DTO, I understand what you mean. So, what would things would you be looking for to accept that you will be the sole breadwinner in the household?


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## vms

DTO said:


> I read this thread (and your post in particular) as a guy looking to date a few years after my divorce. I'm not young and would like a serious relationship at some point, so it's nice to read about what ladies want.
> 
> And, I do better than most financially - make good money, have a nice house & nice car, etc. and I can provide that stability. Yet, I work hard for what I have and if I am going to provide the security (which means making do with less myself) I want to feel like that person deserves me.
> 
> So, the question I have for you is what do you feel you bring to the table? I don't mean it to sound snarky. I just simply read that your education is limited but you expect your husband to better himself, and that you would not marry someone making less than you, and a guy who could not do so would not deserve you.
> 
> Another way of asking the question is that if you expect a guy to do the heavy lifting financially, what do you take charge in / sacrifice in response to his sacrifice?
> 
> Not judging, just curious. Personally, if support is something I'm bringing to the table (meaning a partner is relying on me to provide for her) I'm going to expect her to sacrifice equally in some other way.
> 
> Thanks!


Sort of a moot question for me, as my husband would prefer a stay at home spouse, and I enjoy being a homemaker. What I bring to the table - a love of cooking and cleaning, being a good mother, etc. - might not matter to anyone else. But it matters to my husband. 

If I went back to college, I'd be 40 before I graduated. I'd have to take out loans. There's no guarantee I'd find work. I'd be close to retirement before I paid them off. To me, that's not worth it from a financial standpoint.


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## Starstarfish

> Few women will admit that they're not attracted to men who make less.
> 
> They will dress it up with words like "he lacks ambition" or "I need someone I can depend on" but the result is the same.


And few men will admit they're not attracted to what ... heavy women? Hairy women? (Insert other physical characteristics here.) They'll cover that with "I just didn't feel a connection," or "I think we are in two different places." No one wants to really lay it on the line and admit that their characteristics for a partner when actually said aloud might indeed sound somewhat callous or shallow. 

But might right here on TAM have had threads in which they discuss "their perfect 10" and "What's the line between fat, curvy, athletic, and skinny?" Is that really any less offensive? (I'm guessing, of course it is - that's "just men being men" and they can't help how they are.)

This is why I hate the recommendation of the book His Needs/Her Needs. Because half of that message - "Men need an attractive spouse" is widely accepted and embraced loud and clear. Hence the drill-down of physical requirement threads and the "My wife is fat" threads in which people clearly state that wives who gain weight have abandoned their marriages and vow. (Not really sure which vow that is though.)

But on the flip side, men equally embracing the "Women desire financial security" is indeed, seen as offensive. If you are a woman who has minimal expectations on income or motivation or indeed, ambition you are roasted for it. 

The fact is - male desires are written off as "biological and it simply is what it is" but the same scientific mindset isn't applied to the idea of women (like other females in the animal kingdom) expecting a mate who can "bring home the bacon." Either equate human behavior to animal instinct or don't, but you don't get to cafeteria choose it. 

You get asked question like:



> So, the question I have for you is what do you feel you bring to the table?


When men make more and the wife makes less (or nothing) and she "misbehaves" - others suggest to "cut her off" and "put her on a budget" or "remind her who is earning the money" and other such comments. But in the other poll, men quite clearly say they only want a wife who makes more unless she's "going to be a tool about it."

So ... what's up with that?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Starstarfish said:


> As a woman who has had these qualms about her husband (go dig up my thread if you like) the issue here isn't always about the money itself. It's about wanting to feel like someone doesn't want to -stagnate-. When they express concern about your neighborhood and your school district but loving what they do is more important than addressing it because -you- should be the one to fix it.
> 
> When husbands post here about women with the same attitude ... refuse to work, IE that they want to do want they love - be a SAHM, work part-time, things that don't pay much - are people generally sympathetic or understanding? *Do people see "I love what I do" as a legitimate reason for having continual financial stress and difficulties in the name of happiness? Is it the right of one partner to obtain happiness and the expense of the stress and worry of the other?*


 I do not believe it is the right of a partner to fall down on his or her job ..as in "working together as a team", doing all they can to achieve the goals they talked about & were committed to when they walked down the aisle..

Unforeseen events can happen where things don't go as planned and one may have to step UP and take the reigns ... or if too much debt .. the one not working may need to get back in the work force - to alleviate the other from taking on TOO MUCH Of that burden...this is only fair. 

A marriage with bill collectors calling, cars being repossessed, paying High interest on credit cards, fights over spending / handling of money...this will only cause a chasm between a couple... they NEED TO buck up & work together to increase their income & get on top of this to maintain the lifestyle they have chosen.... or still get on top of it..then choose a *simplier lifestyle* if they both agree it's beneficial for one of them to be in the home, for children & more time together (for instance)...this too can bring harmony. 

It is always very helpful if the one making less or being provided for is more on the frugal /conservative side in their spending habits, being careful to watch for sales/ deals....helping them in fact save money, doing research -having more time for these things......but if they are the ones contributing to the waste.. The sh** is going to hit the fan...









No one wants to be left feeling they're being taken advantage of taking on 75% or more of the burden... this will ALWAYS cause a rising resentment ...


----------



## Starstarfish

I love you, SA, you know that - but, not everything is as cut and dry as "just live a simpler lifestyle" and "be more frugal." 

I cut coupons and hunt deals like a madwoman. But just because you make less money does not indeed mean you have more time. If you make money because you are a SAH spouse/parent, sure, but if you are a full-time worker who just happens to be the less earning partner, that doesn't mean you neccessarily have more hours. Further, not all bills are because of waste or non-frugal lifestyles.

We recently got a $2,000 + bill for blood work for my son. That's more than two months of my paycheck. No amount of coupon cutting or deal hunting for pants is going to make that go away. I am the one who has spent the two days I did have off from work going and attempting to negotiate with the hospital and the insurance company because my husband doesn't handle confrontation. 



> I do not believe it is the right of a partner to fall down on his or her job ..as in "working together as a team", doing all they can to achieve the goals they talked about & were committed to when they walked down the aisle..


Also, talking from experience, what happens when you discussed goals and dreams before marriage, and then after it is revealed to you that your spouse never really had those dreams? Or had them but changed their mind. That they now seem them as frivolous and useless, if not immortal and don't feel like they should have to "sacrifice their happiness" to have you work towards "your goals." Goals they once told you they shared.

That's my personal experience with "he lacks ambition." That's not cute code, that's cold truth. That he lacks the drive to accomplish what he had expressed were shared goals and feels that if I want those things, I should accomplish them myself.


----------



## DTO

vms said:


> Sort of a moot question for me, as my husband would prefer a stay at home spouse, and I enjoy being a homemaker. What I bring to the table - a love of cooking and cleaning, being a good mother, etc. - might not matter to anyone else. But it matters to my husband.
> 
> If I went back to college, I'd be 40 before I graduated. I'd have to take out loans. There's no guarantee I'd find work. I'd be close to retirement before I paid them off. To me, that's not worth it from a financial standpoint.


I see your point, but I'm coming at it from not being my first relationship. This lady would not be the mother of any of my children (I'm 42 already). Any kids she had would probably be school aged. Without little ones there isn't enough to do to keep someone busy on a FTE basis around the house.

And, 40 is definitely not too old to finish with a degree. And while nothing is guaranteed, if you choose your field well the chances are overwhelmingly high that you will be better off financially, esp. if the only jobs you can get now are close to minimum wage.

I got laid off at 37 and started my MBA coursework at 38 (the gap was due to time to apply, take the GMAT, and then wait for a start date at the local state university). I graduated right before turning 40. It wasn't my first choice, but there was no market for someone in accounting / finance with just a B.S. coming from a niche industry.

I'm not quite back to where I was (really good money), but far better than where I would be without it. The important things to keep in mind:

* You can do a degree pretty cheap, especially if you do community college then an in-state university. State schools are starting to get with online courses to resolve scheduling and distance issues. I don't see why you'd have to stretch out the payments over 20 years.

* Full retirement age (SSI) is 67 for us. That leaves you with almost 30 years after graduating to make use of that degree. If you were in your late 40s or 50s I might agree that the cost is not worth it. But that does not hold true for someone in their 30s.


----------



## vms

DTO said:


> I see your point, but I'm coming at it from not being my first relationship. This lady would not be the mother of any of my children (I'm 42 already). Any kids she had would probably be school aged. Without little ones there isn't enough to do to keep someone busy on a FTE basis around the house.
> 
> And, 40 is definitely not too old to finish with a degree. And while nothing is guaranteed, if you choose your field well the chances are overwhelmingly high that you will be better off financially, esp. if the only jobs you can get now are close to minimum wage.
> 
> I got laid off at 37 and started my MBA coursework at 38 (the gap was due to time to apply, take the GMAT, and then wait for a start date at the local state university). I graduated right before turning 40. It wasn't my first choice, but there was no market for someone in accounting / finance with just a B.S. coming from a niche industry.
> 
> I'm not quite back to where I was (really good money), but far better than where I would be without it. The important things to keep in mind:
> 
> * You can do a degree pretty cheap, especially if you do community college then an in-state university. State schools are starting to get with online courses to resolve scheduling and distance issues. I don't see why you'd have to stretch out the payments over 20 years.
> 
> * Full retirement age (SSI) is 67 for us. That leaves you with almost 30 years after graduating to make use of that degree. If you were in your late 40s or 50s I might agree that the cost is not worth it. But that does not hold true for someone in their 30s.


So you're looking for someone with different goals in life than me. We'd be incompatible. 

If I were to go to college (I'd be starting from ground zero), it'd be for social work. Not exactly a high earning field. Hubby is going to be a high school teacher - also not exactly a high earning field. So yeah, it would take us a while to pay off 4-5 years of student loans, and I doubt we would have the extra income each year to not take out loans.


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## sisters359

I voted "yes" also. I have a generous spirit, and I would expect the same from my partner--but that does not mean it is about money. I am emotionally and physically generous. My ex did not have a generous bone in his body, so we were not well-matched. 

On dating forums, many men seem to be obsessed about women who are "gold diggers." I think any man who is delusional enough to expect a woman to date him for "himself," when seeking partners who are considerably younger, more attractive, and have more options than he, deserve what they get. Of course, I think those women are getting what they deserve, too, by basically prostituting themselves rather than earning their own darn money to get what they want.


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## SimplyAmorous

Starstarfish said:


> I love you, SA, you know that - but, not everything is as cut and dry as "just live a simpler lifestyle" and "be more frugal."
> 
> I cut coupons and hunt deals like a madwoman. But just because you make less money does not indeed mean you have more time. If you make money because you are a SAH spouse/parent, sure, but if you are a full-time worker who just happens to be the less earning partner, that doesn't mean you neccessarily have more hours. Further, not all bills are because of waste or non-frugal lifestyles.
> 
> We recently got a $2,000 + bill for blood work for my son. That's more than two months of my paycheck. No amount of coupon cutting or deal hunting for pants is going to make that go away. I am the one who has spent the two days I did have off from work going and attempting to negotiate with the hospital and the insurance company because my husband doesn't handle confrontation.


 When I posted I was thinking more along the lines of having a decent health insurance plan I guess.. The unfairness in America in regards to health care ...I hate it.... some get it all FREE. some are struggling horribly and it eats everything they make.. it just shouldn't BE!!! 

I agree with you, if this is not something a family has.. they could easily see EVERYTHING they worked for/ saved for go up in smoke..even in a few weeks !!.... My Mothers H was in the hospital for a few months & had a bill in the hundreds of thousands.. they didn't own anything so what could they get.. blood out of a rock...

These FEARS is WHY my H stayed at a lousy paying job for the 1st 18 yrs ... 8 yrs into our marriage- because of the health plan , to us, this was security... I've always felt this needs considered in the overall financial plan of any family.. with the new reforms so much is changing though.. it's all being overhauled.. 

*Health problems and Uncovered Insurance costs are one of MY personal biggest fears in life.. so I sympathize with you here...please know I mean that * I am upset with our oldest son for leaving a job with health benefits for something he enjoys more -with none.. He is on our plan for NOW.. but it's not going to last..and I've been on his back to give a darn about such things....cause he is a saver...and I know it will just be taken in a heartbeat if he needs medical attention. 



> Also, talking from experience, what happens when you discussed goals and dreams before marriage, and then after it is revealed to you that your spouse never really had those dreams? Or had them but changed their mind. That they now seem them as frivolous and useless, if not immortal and don't feel like they should have to "sacrifice their happiness" to have you work towards "your goals." Goals they once told you they shared.
> 
> That's my personal experience with "he lacks ambition." That's not cute code, that's cold truth. That he lacks the drive to accomplish what he had expressed were shared goals and feels that if I want those things, I should accomplish them myself.


 I remember your story, coming back to me now.... you were faced with getting out there on your own *carrying the full load.*...you were diligently looking for a good to be able to afford just getting by.... 

I don't know.. It's all a gamble with another human being...isn't it.... we can only hope and pray what we have seen and experienced through the years with this person -that we can trust they will step up...honor their word... ya know.. I don't have all the answers.. I just don't.. 

Why is your insurance costing this much ?? I hope this is an error and will be taken care of !! And your so right, some people don't have careers and make big money, 2 have to work full time and are still scraping by.. 

We're not a rich family, H made $60,000 this year, I feel we have A LOT .. but others would think that's the poor house for a family of our size...

I seen the struggle financially of single friends... hardships around me.. one with lawyer costs she couldn't afford for custody battles for her 2 sons...another who put up with a hernia, needing to see the dentist for years .. no health care...she needed to put food on the table.....Thankfully she got married and now has Insurance ..only to be in a bad car accident months ago & needed a hip replacement .... she won't even be able to go back where she was working now..... I thank God she has her H to lean on right now..

Life and trusting another person, then adding unforeseen accidents, how people change.. how can any of us have the answers.. ONe thing I tend to look at it is.. what were the parents like... if they ended up a wreck.. I'd probably be afraid to marry one of their kids.. but then again.. my H could have said that about me too!


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## DTO

Starstarfish said:


> And few men will admit they're not attracted to what ... heavy women? Hairy women? (Insert other physical characteristics here.) They'll cover that with "I just didn't feel a connection," or "I think we are in two different places." No one wants to really lay it on the line and admit that their characteristics for a partner when actually said aloud might indeed sound somewhat callous or shallow.
> 
> But might right here on TAM have had threads in which they discuss "their perfect 10" and "What's the line between fat, curvy, athletic, and skinny?" Is that really any less offensive? (I'm guessing, of course it is - that's "just men being men" and they can't help how they are.)
> 
> This is why I hate the recommendation of the book His Needs/Her Needs. Because half of that message - "Men need an attractive spouse" is widely accepted and embraced loud and clear. Hence the drill-down of physical requirement threads and the "My wife is fat" threads in which people clearly state that wives who gain weight have abandoned their marriages and vow. (Not really sure which vow that is though.)
> 
> But on the flip side, men equally embracing the "Women desire financial security" is indeed, seen as offensive. If you are a woman who has minimal expectations on income or motivation or indeed, ambition you are roasted for it.
> 
> The fact is - male desires are written off as "biological and it simply is what it is" but the same scientific mindset isn't applied to the idea of women (like other females in the animal kingdom) expecting a mate who can "bring home the bacon." Either equate human behavior to animal instinct or don't, but you don't get to cafeteria choose it.
> 
> You get asked question like:
> 
> 
> 
> When men make more and the wife makes less (or nothing) and she "misbehaves" - others suggest to "cut her off" and "put her on a budget" or "remind her who is earning the money" and other such comments. But in the other poll, men quite clearly say they only want a wife who makes more unless she's "going to be a tool about it."
> 
> So ... what's up with that?


Hmm,

I think you took my quote (the second one in your post) out of context. I for one see men's and women's desires in marriage as equally valid. If any lady needs to get financial security then go for it. I certainly have my requirements as well so I am not about to begrudge anybody else their own.

I also have no issue with any future relationship partner being my equal in the earnings department. After many years with my ex who made somewhere between significantly less and far less than me, I would LOVE for a partner to equal me in contributing towards special events and evenings out, for instance.

All I said was the more you want from a relationship the more you should expect to give back. Having someone help support you is a big ask. If you expect that from me, I am entitled to ask about MY upside. Are you going to keep the bed warm (yes that matters at 40+, even though my drive isn't what it was before)? Are you going to cook nice meals for me regularly since I can't afford to go out as much?

The bottom line for me is that supporting a woman as the price of admission just does not work for me now and will never happen unless I have so much money that I don't miss it. When you note the advice to "cut her off" when she "misbehaves", you don't get that would only happen if she is falling down on her side of the agreement.


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## DTO

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Health problems and Uncovered Insurance costs are one of MY personal biggest fears in life.. so I sympathize with you here...please know I mean that *


Amen to that! I recall when my child was fighting cancer the initial two month hospital bill was over $650k. That was 10 years ago and was the negotiated amount actually paid by the insurance.

Makes me upset that people poo-poo the ACA, saying that it's not necessary since they lack the perspective due to being blessed with good health.


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## Starstarfish

> Why is your insurance costing this much ?? I hope this is an error and will be taken care of !!


I could start a whole discussion about the insanity of this bill and the answer the hospital gave me, but given 1 - that's a major threadjack, and 2 - we might be going into litigation about it, getting into it on the general forum likely isn't wise. 

I can PM you the story if you like though, SA.


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## DTO

NextTimeAround said:


> DTO, I understand what you mean. So, what would things would you be looking for to accept that you will be the sole breadwinner in the household?


Actually I don't think I could be the sole breadwinner. As I said before, there simply isn't enough to do around here to in a SAHM situation. And I'm well off, but not that well off.

I would be comfortable being the main provider. I own a nice place easily big enough for a blended family, if I found myself in a good relationship. I would not ask for help with the mortgage or major upkeep since, as the house is 100% in my name, I would see that as my responsibility. I also could cover health insurance for everyone as my plan is decent if not great.

I would also expect help around the house, with monthly bills (utilities, food, transportation), cover her own and kids' (if any) incidentals, and retirement planning. TBH that isn't much when housing and medical is covered and is doable with any FT job (unless working fast food or retail clerking).

Hey, life is expensive! At Disneyland Resort a family of four wanting to get in and get good seats for one of the night shows (which means buying a good meal) would spend almost $1,000. I think asking for some help so I can afford to do that once in a great while is not asking too much.


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## unbelievable

I'd like to see another poll.

Q. Does your husband earn more than you?

Q. When you married, did your husband earn more than you or was he in college to get a job likely to earn more?

Q. Who has greater influence over family spending, you or your husband?


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## Curse of Millhaven

Yes! I would and I did. When my husband and I met, he was a working a blue-collar job (English major!) and I worked in research at a top medical school. We met by chance and sparked over a friendly conversation about Tom Waits (it’s all his fault!!!) and so it began. I fell in love with who he is, not what he did or how much he made. The difference in our professional backgrounds did not bother me at all; I actually greatly admired (still do!) his education in literature and his passion for books and poetry (not to mention his enormous…brain!) His financial status and his “potential” never factored into my attraction for him. At all.

Early in our marriage when he decided (entirely of his own volition) that he wanted to pursue graduate study in a professional field, I supported him…literally and figuratively. After graduation he struggled to find full-time employment and so I supported us through many years of his under- and unemployment. He would do the same for me. We are fubar in so many ways but we’ve always been supportive of each other in this respect. In this we are a “union”, a family; we take care of each other and both do what we can to contribute to our survival.


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## Bridge

If he can't keep up with my income I won't respect him.


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## ConanHub

Bridge said:


> If he can't keep up with my income I won't respect him.


Competition? If you started earning more would you trade up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

unbelievable said:


> I'd like to see another poll.
> 
> Q. Does your husband earn more than you?
> 
> Q. When you married, did your husband earn more than you or was he in college to get a job likely to earn more?
> 
> Q. Who has greater influence over family spending, you or your husband?


Ok, I'll bite. 
1. No.

2. He did, but we both knew that would change thanks to the career I was pursuing. 

3. Pretty much equal. We're both free to spend a couple hundred without the other but after that it comes up for discussion. Reason being that we're both runners and we don't want to have to clear it with the other each time we want a new pair of running shoes (about $100). Neither one of us is a spender though and we live below our means.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Ok, I'll bite.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your a biter?&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> Your a biter?��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Maybe 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL!&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

unbelievable said:


> I'd like to see another poll.
> 
> *Q. Does your husband earn more than you?*


 He brings in over 95% of our income.. definitely the Breadwinner here...



> *Q. When you married, did your husband earn more than you or was he in college to get a job likely to earn more?*


 When we married, I made more over him.. he took a little computer college, got a certificate a couple yrs before we married..it wasn't a degree, and he never got a job in that field anyway, none of the Interviews he went to offered Health benefits, so he just stayed where he was.

3 months after we married, I was pregnant, given we didn't have a babysitter, we lived on top of a mountainous driveway , winter would have been very difficult to be dragging a newborn up & down so I could keep working...(had to figure in all aspects to what would work for a family)..so I quit weeks before I was due...then was a Stay at Home Mom... Loved it... Have worked smaller jobs over the years, around his schedule... more so when we couldn't conceive, we saved a lot of money during that stretch.. so it all worked out. 

I can't say we have ever struggled financially even though we would have been considered lower income... Both of us very frugal/ do it yourselfers ...we still managed to save enough to put down half on our 1st house, sell it 2 yrs later, making a profit, then putting over half down on our the house we live in now, paying it off 7 yrs later, and was debt free by the time we had our last son. 



> *Q. Who has greater influence over family spending, you or your husband?*


My H likes to say I am the brains behind the outfit.. He supports us all... but I handle every dime.. He probably hasn't written a check in 15 yrs.. I look for CD's, shop for the best deals, I handle every financial whatever...I am generally the one who comes up with home improvement ideas, does the research, makes the calls... but with every larger purchase, we sit down together, discuss the pros & cons...(sometimes it's a "Let's do it" and sometimes it's a "wait- maybe someday" ...and we go forth together.. We also shop together for the most part. There is no surprises. 

We've never had a fight over money ... If anything I am a little tighter over my H, so he's never worried I would waste his money... 



vms said:


> Sort of a moot question for me,* as my husband would prefer a stay at home spouse, and I enjoy being a homemaker. What I bring to the table - a love of cooking and cleaning, being a good mother, etc. - might not matter to anyone else. But it matters to my husband. *


 My H feels as yours vms.....although we worried in our early years if we could swing it.. the more Traditional lifestyle is what we both wanted...The only scripture I have memorized in the bible is 1 Thes 4:11 ...when I read that for the 1st time.. I circled it real big.. I prayed over it ..I feared what if he gets laid off ...WHAT IF.. WHAT IF.. but so far.. 25 yrs later.. it's ran very smoothly.. 



... we may not have had newer cars (but we never cared about that-he can fix the older ones )... we may not have stayed on Disney Property but we still got to enjoy the parks for a much lessor cost to our family....we may not have expensive cell phone plans but we still have a cell for an emergency (I bought my 1st android last month but I'm still sticking with tracfone -the $7 a month can't be beat!)...we may not buy designer clothes but our kids fit in just fine at school.....

Always the thrifty shopper here....our old Gravely lawn tractor is probably over 35 yrs old, but even my H thinks the older stuff is better many times.. it's still kicking.. 

So we've made sacrifices to allow for this lifestyle that is slowly dying today... he's never treated me like I was lessor... and I very much look up to him for ALL he does.. he is the type of man who thrives on the Protecting and Providing for his family.. he feels that's what a MAN does.. not my words. but his own.. and I dearly appreciate his attitude..


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## vms

unbelievable said:


> I'd like to see another poll.
> 
> Q. Does your husband earn more than you?
> 
> Q. When you married, did your husband earn more than you or was he in college to get a job likely to earn more?
> 
> Q. Who has greater influence over family spending, you or your husband?


1. Yes, and likely always will. 
2. Yes, substantially more. 
3. It's equal, although he's much more of a spender than i am. Our wedding, for example, was way more than I'd have spent on it if it was all up to me. His hobbies cost more than mine, and he eats out more than I do. That's going to have to change in two months when he's not getting that Army salary anymore. 

It's frustrating for me because he's the one worried about money, yet he's the one spending more of it. 

He's never been poor like I have though. He came from money. He doesn't know what it's like to not have a surplus of money at your disposal.


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## lifeistooshort

sisters359 said:


> I voted "yes" also. I have a generous spirit, and I would expect the same from my partner--but that does not mean it is about money. I am emotionally and physically generous. My ex did not have a generous bone in his body, so we were not well-matched.
> 
> On dating forums, many men seem to be obsessed about women who are "gold diggers." I think any man who is delusional enough to expect a woman to date him for "himself," when seeking partners who are considerably younger, more attractive, and have more options than he, deserve what they get. Of course, I think those women are getting what they deserve, too, by basically prostituting themselves rather than earning their own darn money to get what they want.



I agree with this and this double standard has always p!ssed me off. There is a certain subset of men that feel like they're entitled to hot women when they are not hot and heaven forbid she get something out of it to. So they can be shallow and will user their money as a sales pitch but she must want him for him or she's a gold digger. Expect to be judged on the same manner you judge. 

I think these women know they're prostituting themselves and are ok with that. They understand it's a commodity swap, you're not going to see many hot women obsessing about whether he loves her for her. They know he doesn't and are ok with that because they're in it for the money. Why else would they date beneath themselves? Because he's "nice"? No he isn't, otherwise he'd be judging based on something other than looks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John Lee

Just an observation: the "other" option makes no sense. You either would or wouldn't. Obviously there's going to be some conditions/caveats/ifs/buts. No one's saying that if you vote "yes" it means you'd date or marry a complete bum. I feel like if you answer "other" you really mean no because you have to qualify your answer so much that it probably wouldn't ever happen.


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## Holland

unbelievable said:


> I'd like to see another poll.
> 
> Q. Does your husband earn more than you?
> 
> Q. When you married, did your husband earn more than you or was he in college to get a job likely to earn more?
> 
> Q. Who has greater influence over family spending, you or your husband?


These sorts of polls don't really tell much because each situation is going to be different. To highlight that I will answer

1) Yes he earns more than me, more than 10x more. 
2) We met in mid life, both of us have been previously married/divorced. The answer is the same as 1) he was earning 10x more than me when we met.
3) we have equal say in spending.

Looks like a seriously unbalanced situation on paper but it isn't as I have assets to carry me through for the rest of my life. own my home outright etc.


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