# Finally asked for a D. Wife wants another chance. Trust struggles...



## Todi

*Some back story. * _(I'll keep it brief but I have previous posts with tons more details.)_

4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..

The last year has gone by without incident, but I had told myself that I would re-evaluate my feelings after a year. After spending the last 6-8 weeks soul searching, I decided I could never fully trust again and that wasn't going to work for me. I'm sick of feeling like I need to check up on her when I trigger and that's why I told her I wanted a D. I have talked to an attorney and understand how things will most likely play out and am OK with it, even though it horribly impacts all of us involved....

Over the past several days, my wife has been begging for another chance and promising to finally go to counseling. Saying that she hasn't realized until right now (2.5 years later with a verbal declaration of D) how much of an issue this is for me. I think I communicated how close to DI was the previous two times.

We have other more "normal" issues that I think we could fix with counseling and some work, but the trust is the biggest thing for me. Something is broken inside of me and I'll always have trust issues. Especially with her.

*Here's my question.*

In your opinions... Can trust ever be fully regained (I'd settle for 90%) if the betrayed spouse (me) has a history of holding grudges, tending to see things as more more black and white and having no real solid examples of successful relationships from his childhood. I've already spent 2.5 years trying to deal with trust issues I've developed as of a result of her decisions to disregard my feelings and ultimately trying to hide things fro me.

I don't think (or feel) that I ever could, but it's breaking my heart that she is fighting so hard in the final hour... I second guess myself that I didn't make my feeling clear enough for her or that I rug swept a bit and didn't make her face true accountability for what happened. If it wasn't for the kids, it would probably be an easier decision. I KNOW that I will never 100% trust my wife again and I refuse to feel like I need to check up on her EVER. If that's the only alternative, D is definitely what I want.

Should I give her one last chance, or should I follow through with the D?!? Even if I give her another chance, I have NO idea how she could possibly help me with my trust issues at this point. I don't believe it's something within her power to fix.

Telling her I wanted a D was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life and the next couple of days of her sobbing broken heatedly has almost killed me. I can't imagine ever being able to do that to her again in the future, but it could come to that if I give her a 2nd chance.... I'm somewhat confused, but leaning towards following through with the D.

I appreciate any responses or anyone that takes the time to read this... I'm mostly trying to vent and work through my own feelings at this point, but I will need to answer her tonight or tomorrow either way.

=(


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## Jasel

I think regardless of what happens in the end you have to follow through. Otherwise it's just going to be rinse and repeat. In order to get over the betrayal of EA or PA there has to be *sustained *and *continuous *actions on the part of the WS. Your wife has not demonstrated that from what I've read. Just some token promises and crocodile tears as a hail mary at the 11th hour. Which IMO is pretty much worthless.

You've given her 2.5 years and it sounds like not only has she continuously lied and betrayed you, she hasn't done much heavy lifting to repair the damage she caused. So let me ask, what message do you think you'd be sending her after everything she's put you through, failed to do to help the marriage recover, you telling her that you're filing for divorce, and suddenly all she has to do is cry and make some promises she hasn't even followed through on yet and you change your mind? 

Do you think that she's suddenly going to turn over a new leaf? Or gain any new found respect for you or her marriage? Or are you simply telling her that no matter what she does, you'll never leave despite your ultimatums?? To me it sounds like you've given her plenty of chances. Most people as far as I'm concerned aren't deserving of even a second one.

And to answer your question I think it's foolish to trust anyone 100% to begin with. But after what you've been through and seeing how your wife lied to you again and again and again, I don't see how you could get anywhere near 90% trust in her.

Anyway I hope things work out for you.


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## alte Dame

She clearly has poor boundaries and is OK with hurting you if it means she can gratify whatever desire she has at the time. When she is caught and you are hurt, she promises to be faithful, but does it again. There is no getting around the observation that she really doesn't care that she hurts you. The empathy needed for a loving relationship is missing in her.

People can change, in my opinion. They can reform. They can have their eyes opened. In her case, however, this would just be the next time that she has managed to talk you around. Granted, she has been much more upset, but she is succeeding.

If it were me, I don't think I would want to chance it. The odds are too great that the lesson learned wouldn't be one of empathy and maturity and love, but one of 'how to cry and beg enough to keep the spouse roped in.'

Sorry. This is so hard.


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## Mr.Fisty

Moving on with your life may be the best way for her to learn and grow. Sometimes love means negative reinforcement, in this case your commitment to be with her.

It may help her get help, find a way to stop sabotaging her own life.

By letting her hit rock bottom, you will be doing her a favor in her own personal growth.


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## commonsenseisn't

I almost always advocate divorce as a consequence for cheating. However, I'm also mindful that there really are repentant spouses out there that suddenly "get it". 

Some posters here on TAM will disagree and say once a cheater, always a cheater. That's often true, but history is full of evidence of people who have betrayed, saw the light, and never cheated again for the remainder of their lives. I personally know of two in this category. A wise person won't disregard this truth. 

How do you know if you can trust her again? I don't know what to tell you except that negativity gets too much of our attention in this world. It's easy to see what's wrong in others. Any fool can find fault in others, but it takes something divine to see what's good in imperfect people. 

History is a good predictor of future behavior in your spouse, but its not infallible. You are weighing risks and are wishing you had a crystal ball to see what the future holds. 

You risk divorcing a spouse who might have been faithful had you stayed. You also risk staying with and trusting a spouse who might betray you again. Either way, it's a gamble. That's life. There are no easy answers. Even if you marry someone else you still run the same risks, but in different ratios. 

I've lived long enough to learn that it's best to doubt my doubts more than to doubt my faith. Sounds hokey to some, but prayer helped me when I had a big decision similar to yours many years ago. Looking back, it was the right thing for me. 

Good luck.


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## Todi

commonsenseisn't said:


> That's life. There are no easy answers. Even if you marry someone else you still run the same risks, but in different ratios.


People on TAM get upset with me when I talk about MY trust issues. But at this point, that's what they are. My spouse could have been 100% faithful and honest the past year, but that isn't where my problem is. I can't Trust her!

If we D. I doubt I will ever re-marry. Have relationships, sure... But probably never marry again. Either way, stay or go, I know something in me is broken and will require a LOT of attention.

Thanks for the reply. I think it outlines exactly what I'm struggling with...


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## Todi

Another side note. I mentioned I have spent 6-8 weeks soul searching after a year of trying to work through trust issues...

Last week I had a really good where I was leaning heavily in the opposite direction... I was feeling like things might be worth working on.

I then noticed an E-mail from a male co-worker that simply read *Here's my number just in case.* with his phone number.

I simple enough email with no context at all, but I triggered HARD.

Her reply. *You should trade your Friday shift for Monday or Wendsday...* Both days she was working...

It's probably a casual enough email from my wife to a co-worker that she enjoys working with, but I really triggered hard and it made me go in the complete opposite direction. Which ultimately led to me asking for the divorce 4 days ago.

Stuff like this will Always trigger me... And I feel horrible for feeling like I have to check her E-mail EVER! That's not the relationship I want to be in. =(

Crappy and circumstantial, but adds a bit more context I think.

_Edited for language..._


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## Borntohang

You ultimately have to make the decision, but when children are involved and there is a "possibility" of your marriage working. I think you have to try! She's contrite, she tells you she loves you, she's not rubbing an affair in your face. (A lot of posters pray for this!)
You've obviously put a lot of thought into this! I wish you the best!


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## commonsenseisn't

Todi said:


> People on TAM get upset with me when I talk about MY trust issues. But at this point, that's what they are. My spouse could have been 100% faithful and honest the past year, but that isn't where my problem is. I can't Trust her!
> 
> If we D. I doubt I will ever re-marry. Have relationships, sure... But probably never marry again. Either way, stay or go, I know something in me is broken and will require a LOT of attention.
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I think it outlines exactly what I'm struggling with...


Good on you for realizing you have this issue to work on. It might be wise for you to communicate this to your wife so she can understand the cause/effect process of her infidelity. This is a way of helping her to see consequences.

As others have stated, she might also need the consequence of divorce to help her see things clearer and to help you with your issues also. Sometimes these learning experiences can promote success if a remarriage is on the horizon. 

If you didn't have kids I'd advise divorce, but it's not that easy in your situation. Have you discussed your story with a counselor?


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## Openminded

It's very difficult to regain trust after your spouse cheats. The innocence that you had before they cheated is gone. You wonder if it could happen again. The uncertainty of that is what some people find they ultimately can't live with. 

R is far more difficult than D for many people (I spent 30 years in R before I got out after DD2 so I'm very familiar with the pitfalls of R). However, there are those who do succeed although full and complete trust is another story. 

Counseling may help clarify for you what is best for your situation. I hope so.


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## Happilymarried25

I'm sure I will blasted for this but I believe you should give her another chance for 2 reasons 1) for your children so they can continue to live with a Mom and a Dad together in one house and 2) there wasn't any physicall interaction. An email to a co worker doesn't mean anything is going on between them.


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## aine

Todi said:


> *Some back story. * _(I'll keep it brief but I have previous posts with tons more details.)_
> 
> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..
> 
> The last year has gone by without incident, but I had told myself that I would re-evaluate my feelings after a year. After spending the last 6-8 weeks soul searching, I decided I could never fully trust again and that wasn't going to work for me. I'm sick of feeling like I need to check up on her when I trigger and that's why I told her I wanted a D. I have talked to an attorney and understand how things will most likely play out and am OK with it, even though it horribly impacts all of us involved....
> 
> Over the past several days, my wife has been begging for another chance and promising to finally go to counseling. Saying that she hasn't realized until right now (2.5 years later with a verbal declaration of D) how much of an issue this is for me. I think I communicated how close to DI was the previous two times.
> 
> We have other more "normal" issues that I think we could fix with counseling and some work, but the trust is the biggest thing for me. Something is broken inside of me and I'll always have trust issues. Especially with her.
> 
> *Here's my question.*
> 
> In your opinions... Can trust ever be fully regained (I'd settle for 90%) if the betrayed spouse (me) has a history of holding grudges, tending to see things as more more black and white and having no real solid examples of successful relationships from his childhood. I've already spent 2.5 years trying to deal with trust issues I've developed as of a result of her decisions to disregard my feelings and ultimately trying to hide things fro me.
> 
> I don't think (or feel) that I ever could, but it's breaking my heart that she is fighting so hard in the final hour... I second guess myself that I didn't make my feeling clear enough for her or that I rug swept a bit and didn't make her face true accountability for what happened. If it wasn't for the kids, it would probably be an easier decision. I KNOW that I will never 100% trust my wife again and I refuse to feel like I need to check up on her EVER. If that's the only alternative, D is definitely what I want.
> 
> Should I give her one last chance, or should I follow through with the D?!? Even if I give her another chance, I have NO idea how she could possibly help me with my trust issues at this point. I don't believe it's something within her power to fix.
> 
> Telling her I wanted a D was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life and the next couple of days of her sobbing broken heatedly has almost killed me. I can't imagine ever being able to do that to her again in the future, but it could come to that if I give her a 2nd chance.... I'm somewhat confused, but leaning towards following through with the D.
> 
> I appreciate any responses or anyone that takes the time to read this... I'm mostly trying to vent and work through my own feelings at this point, but I will need to answer her tonight or tomorrow either way.
> 
> =(


I would think that counselling should be tried first before you go through with the D. You must do everything possible for the marriage so that you know you have done just that when you make the decision to walk away. It appears that you love your wife a lot. It seems like your wife does not get how much her EA and other activities have hurt you and how important trust is in any marriage. Perhaps counselling will bring all of this out. You have nothing to lose by doing counselling first and then making your final decision. The thing is being in any relationship is a risk. The current marriage may end up being wonderful or she may end up hurting your again. Then again you may meet someone else after divorce who will also betray your trust, there are never any guarantees, once you are in a relationship, these are the risks you take.


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## TRy

Todi said:


> I then noticed an E-mail from a male co-worker that simply read *Here's my number just in case.* with his phone number.
> 
> I simple enough email with no context at all, but I triggered HARD.
> 
> Her reply. *You should trade your Friday shift for Monday or Wendsday...* Both days she was working...
> 
> It's probably a casual enough email from my wife to a co-worker that she enjoys working with


 I am sorry, but in light of her history of poor boundaries with other men, her contact with this co-worker is a big deal. For someone that was suppose to be doing the heavy lifting in earning your trust back, this shows that she just does not get it. She has a history of being addicted to inappropriate male attention. Like an alcoholic that must follow a special set of rules when dealing with alcohol, she needed to follow a special set of rules when dealing with other men.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

It seems simple enough to me.



Todi said:


> I then noticed an E-mail from a male co-worker that simply read *Here's my number just in case.* with his phone number.[/I]


He was fishing.



Todi said:


> Her reply. *You should trade your Friday shift for Monday or Wendsday...* Both days she was working.../I]


She took a nibble.


By it's self, not much, but given that she has a history of EA'ing, EVEN AFTER being caught more than once...

I completely understand why you decided to start the D process.

It's not a question of whether you starting the D will finally snap her out of this EA haze. It's a question of whether you can tolerate the level of mistrust you now have because of it, for the next 1, 10, or 25 years.

She really hasn't shown any sign that she'll stop doing this. You could file for D and get all the preliminary steps done. If she really seems genuine about a true R, put the D on hold.

Then if she does it again you just take the D out of park and head down the road...


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## Decorum

Todi said:


> Another side note. I mentioned I have spent 6-8 weeks soul searching after a year of trying to work through trust issues...
> 
> Last week I had a really good where I was leaning heavily in the opposite direction... I was feeling like things might be worth working on.
> 
> I then noticed an E-mail from a male co-worker that simply read *Here's my number just in case.* with his phone number.
> 
> I simple enough email with no context at all, but I triggered HARD.
> 
> Her reply. *You should trade your Friday shift for Monday or Wendsday...* Both days she was working...
> 
> It's probably a casual enough email from my wife to a co-worker that she enjoys working with, but I really triggered hard and it made me go in the complete opposite direction. Which ultimately led to me asking for the divorce 4 days ago.
> 
> Stuff like this will Always trigger me... And I feel horrible for feeling like I have to check her E-mail EVER! That's not the relationship I want to be in. =(
> 
> Crappy and circumstantial, but adds a bit more context I think.
> 
> _Edited for language..._





TRy said:


> I am sorry, but in light of her history of poor boundaries with other men, her contact with this co-worker is a big deal. For someone that was suppose to be doing the heavy lifting in earning your trust back, this shows that she just does not get it. She has a history of being addicted to inappropriate male attention. Like an alcoholic that must follow a special set of rules when dealing with alcohol, she needed to follow a special set of rules when dealing with other men.


:iagree:

She felt safe and did not believe you would really pull the trigger on divorce.

You don't realize how broken you are and how much her gas-lighting has damaged you.

You have been broken so many times that this seems innocent to you? Sad.

My wife would never do this.

You will never be at peace with her.


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## Todi

Wife finally got home from work and we talked. As hard as it was... I stuck to my decision to go forward with the divorce. 

It was heart breaking. The worst part was when she threw the fact that *I would have trust issues in any future relationships* in my face. As if I hadn't already thought of that...

Staying with her and working on existing trust issues or moving on and working on myself to fix what might be broken... Especially when I can't imagine if roles were reversed I would have ever made similar choices as she did. Doesn't seem fair for her to throw that at me at this point. I'm WELL aware.

There have to be trustworthy people out there. I think I'm one...


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## Decorum

Well if your next partner doesn't play the "hokey pokey" with appropriate boundaries it will not be as bad.

If you work on yourself (counseling etc) and can begin to visualize when to trust, and can accept upfront (Objectively) the true cost of trust and failure you can make real progress.

I wish you well.


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## larry.gray

If your spouse previously cheated, and when caught she repeatedly pushed beyond the agreed on boundaries, _the trust issues aren't due to you._ *It's HER.*

She's ruined any chance of *any* man trusting her. Until she's proved she's genuinely changed, only a FOOL would trust her. I do not discount the ability of people to change. But when they change, it is obvious to all around them. Continued shady behavior is not demonstrative of genuine change.

She's mentally abused you to the point that you think it's you, not her. She's playing up your fears.


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## Affaircare

Todi, 

I have a newsflash for you--I am not sure you have trust issues. You 100% trust her: to be DISHONEST. Your issues are not with trust--your issue is with her HONESTY and that is because she has extremely consistently been dishonest!!

Let me give you a possibility. If, after D-Day, rather than hiding texts or calls, she had INCLUDED you, and shown you every single one--even ones where she didn't start them and was a little afraid--part of you may be hurt a little but you'd also have noticed "Ah but she showed me even when she as scared." Then if she had continued being an open book, and been honest when she had to go to a lunch, or been honest about where she was and who she was with, it may have taken a while (and I mean years there) but gradually, s-l-o-w-l-y you would have begin to see consistently that she was where she said she was going to be, doing what she said she was going to be doing, and that she was behaving in an honest way. 

See...honesty builds on honesty and trust is built when someone behaves in an honest way. When someone behaves in a DISHONEST way, there is no trust because there is no HONESTY!

I think you're making a correct decision to go forward with the divorce. She has had 2.5 years to actually be honest, to include you, to live in a transparent and trustWORTHY way, and she has extremely consistently chosen to hide, deflect, obscure, conceal, and bury the truth. And right now, you are at a point that you 100% TRUST HER to continue to behave as she has been behaving. 

Honestly, to me that seems smart.


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## Roselyn

Go forward with the divorce. She cheated with the same man with two different husbands. She has not learned at all. She loves this Other Man. She has risked two marriages for this man. There will be another repeat performance with this same man. Cut her loose while you can. You deserve a better life than being married to a serial cheater.


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## azteca1986

Todi said:


> She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance.


So, if I'm reading this right, this will be the second marriage in which she's cheated with the same Ex?

With the treat of D she _finally_ understand that cheating is a bad thing that's detrimental to marriages? Hmmm.

Some people have trust issues because they sense, and in your case know, that their partners are untrustworthy. I'd suggest you get some professional help to get to the root causes of your issues. From where I'm sitting you have cause.

In your position, even with young kids in the mix, I would carry on with the D. Divorces take time. She has that time to change your mind. Really she should be the one posting on marriage forums trying everything she can to save her marriage, not you.

The time for empty promises (that she breaks) is over. She needs to show you through her actions.


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## Todi

Affaircare said:


> Let me give you a possibility. If, after D-Day, rather than hiding texts or calls, she had INCLUDED you, and shown you every single one--even ones where she didn't start them and was a little afraid--part of you may be hurt a little but you'd also have noticed "Ah but she showed me even when she as scared."


We actually discussed this very thing tonight when she got home. I claimed that spouses should be able to tell each other everything. Even if the reaction might be painful. 

She claimed that if she had approached me about wanting to talk to somebody that I would have freaked out. I think I would have been leery but OK with it since she was being open and honest. 

Either way... I was never given the chance and she chose to make the decision for US and hide it from me altogether.


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## BobSimmons

Todi said:


> Can trust ever be fully regained (I'd settle for 90%)


No. You gave her three chances and three times..truthfully probably more she's f*cked you over.

You shouldn't have to settle for 90%, you gave the gift of R three times, she should have been bending over backwards to make you feel safe especially with your issues (which I call BS on because those "issues" are your gut instinct telling you things are not ok..and they weren't)

This is about feeling safe. You don't feel safe.
This is about respect. If she respected you, hard as it is she would see your point and let you go. One might also add if she respected you she would have quit cheating the first time and not need all these chances.

Tell your wife to respect your decision. If she's serious about IC and fixing herself and changing for the better then she should still go to an IC.

The problem is you gave her three chances and she basically spat on all of them. You drew the line and she repeatedly crossed it. So when you finally say enough, she all of a sudden gets it.. it shouldn't have to have come to this point and the problem with that is once the threat has been removed what is the real incentive for change?

If you hadn't have said enough, then it still would have continued. So no. Get your D. If she's serious then she'll work on yourself and maybe in the future you can try again.


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## BobSimmons

Happilymarried25 said:


> I'm sure I will blasted for this but I believe you should give her another chance for 2 reasons 1) for your children so they can continue to live with a Mom and a Dad together in one house and 2) there wasn't any physicall interaction. An email to a co worker doesn't mean anything is going on between them.


What!!??

No you won't get blasted but sheesh, three times not enough for the poor man. Those reasons are simply not good enough.

And the email might not be incriminating but the OP specifically said that was not the point, the point is it made him trigger hard and I can see why. He doesn't feel safe, his wife hasn't made him feel safe since her affairs, she's still talking to co-workers out of hours talking about changing shifts so they can work together.

She's not making him feel safe. And none of the reasons you gave for OP staying are about putting the OP first are they?


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## happy as a clam

Todi said:


> She claimed that *if she had approached me about wanting to talk to somebody* that I would have freaked out. I think I would have been leery but OK with it since she was being open and honest.


You are doing the right thing.

In her words above, ask yourself... after all that she has done to hurt you, WHY WOULD SHE EVEN WANT TO ""talk to somebody"???

She simply doesn't get it. There are boundaries in marriage. She consistently blew past them with you, and she also did it to her first husband too. She will never really change to become the way you need her to be because her values and beliefs are very different from yours on this issue.

Read lonelyhusband321's thread if you have time: Breached Trust. He is now divorced from his wife who had an EA. He took a similar position that he would never be able to trust her again and he did not back down from his decision to get divorced.


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## drifting on

Todi

I too have trust issues, mostly caused from my job, but infidelity has now shaken my trust issues to the point I only trust people I've known ten years or more. I know the problem is mine to own and my IC is helping to repair the damage both my job and infidelity has caused. I don't see how anyone could not have trust issues after my WW went through life for two and a half years with her deception. She lay next to me every night knowing that lie without ever uttering a word. I think it's perfectly normal to have trust issues after infidelity. 

In your case Todi your wife seems remorseful for being caught, and does not respect the boundaries put in place. There is heavy lifting your wife should have done, but from your posts it doesn't sound like she has. To suddenly understand what she has done after two and a half years is doubtful at best. Two days after d-day my wife did everything, complete turnaround from what she was. I never thought she had it in her to work this hard at saving the marriage. The point I'm trying to make here is, you will notice a big change in the person if they want to save the marriage. This is done by actions and not begging or crying, it's the WS making the BS feel safe. From your posts you have been more a parent then spouse. 

This could be a trust issue or your wife is not faithful by continuing suspect behavior. I'll let you decide which you think she is, but I can't see you being safe with her actions. If you are really torn on what to do, tell your wife she can try to earn you back, but the divorce is going to proceed. Lay out ground rules she has to meet during this time. No communication you aren't aware of, IC and MC, all time accounted for and whatever else you need her to do. You are in the drivers seat and its your life to live, set your goals and work towards them. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yeswecan

Todi said:


> People on TAM get upset with me when I talk about MY trust issues. But at this point, that's what they are. My spouse could have been 100% faithful and honest the past year, but that isn't where my problem is. I can't Trust her!
> 
> If we D. I doubt I will ever re-marry. Have relationships, sure... But probably never marry again. Either way, stay or go, I know something in me is broken and will require a LOT of attention.
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I think it outlines exactly what I'm struggling with...


Todi, 25 years ago I was at the same place your are today. Thinking I would never trust another. I got the shaft. I believed my soon to be would cheat again. I dropped her like a bad habit. I was right as well. She went on cheating with her next conquests. Glad it all transpired as it did because I did and would not live not trusting my significant other. However, with her out of sight and mind I found that I could trust again. Along came a woman of character and morals. The idea that I was broken inside with trust issues was gone. 

I truly believe it will happen for you.


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## Yeswecan

Todi said:


> Wife finally got home from work and we talked. As hard as it was... I stuck to my decision to go forward with the divorce.


Todi, when you hand is over fire it burns and hurts. If you constantly hold it there it will burn and hurt. You want the burn and hurt that is cause by the fire to go away? You want the burn and hurt to heal? Remove the fire or remove your hand. In this case, remove you from your W and your W from you. Again, out of sight, out of mind. You will heal.


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## NoChoice

OP,
When you speak with your wife next simple explain to her that the last text you saw is a clear and definite indicator of her motives. The male texted "here's my number, just in case". This could have been work related or she could be discussing your recent request for D and he want's first place in line, rather idiotic in my opinion but nevertheless. She needs to, but cannot, understand that, because of the situation she has created, she must be overly diligent about male contact and the handling thereof.

If the text were work related she should have responded: "In the event I need to contact you regarding (work issue), I will access company documents for your contact information".

If the text were of a personal nature she should have responded: "There is no "in case" as my marriage failing is not an option for me. Your number has been deleted, do not contact me again".

Whichever of these is applicable should have been disclosed to you, along with all others, in real time for your consideration. Failure to do so and her response to the text is indicative of her real intent.

Until she exhibits the behavior of someone who has destroyed another's trust and DESPERATELY wants it back then your faith in her will never return. As another poster wrote, I do not believe that the issue is your trusting ability but rather her trust building ability.

Having said all of that, it is possible, although highly improbable, that she honestly does not know how to respond in any given situation however, given her fear of your "freaking out" if she tells you something, I tend to discount this possibility. If she really wanted your trust back she would readily endure your "freak outs" and much more.

If you explain all of this to her, you can then watch her response and future actions during the D process and, if you see marked improvement and sincerity, the D can be terminated. The bottom line is that she has to want your trust more than ANYTHING else, male contact, GNO, job, everything. If she does not then no progress can be made. Your postings do not indicate she has such a desire but we have very limited information. Good fortune to you and your family.


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## Mr.Fisty

Toady, your wife may have a hand in your dysfunction. Did you have trust issues in the past, or is it because of her own problems? Usually, others dysfunction makes us dysfunctional as well. An emotionally stunted spouse may leave another spouse feel emotionally neglected. An abusive spouse will cause their spouse to be victims and have low self-worth.

She may change or not, but she is a trigger for your dysfunction. You may be able to work through it or not, but if it is high, the better odds are for you to stop being around the trigger to have the time, energy, and less of the distraction of worrying, or have your spouse back slide. Dysfunction usually breeds dysfunction.

I do not deal in absolutes, since there have been outliers, but the probability is high she will continue this behavior, and the probability will be high that you will have trust issues with her, and that in turn could devolve you as a person.


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## Graywolf2

Todi said:


> She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.


Is this one guy or two different guys?

An ex isn’t just any guy. It’s a guy she found attractive and at the very least was comfortable having sex with. In your wife’s case one ex was so irresistible that cheating with him ended her first marriage. These aren’t just some random guys she’s emailing. How do you know it wasn’t a PA?


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## happy as a clam

Mr.Fisty said:


> Toady...


Mr. Fisty... I like your creative new spelling of the OP's name... 

:rofl:


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## RWB

Todi said:


> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance.


Todi,

I'm all about 2nd chances, not so much with 3rd or 4ths.

No offense, but you married a confirmed cheater. It probably cost her 1st marriage and she still doesn't get it. :scratchhead:


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## Mr.Fisty

happy as a clam said:


> Mr. Fisty... I like your creative new spelling of the OP's name...
> 
> :rofl:



Oops, somehow my brain reworked the spelling in my head. He should get a name change now to satisfy my spelling. I am too lazy to edit it now. I have gone too far.

In writing this reply, I realize that it would have taken less work. Thanks a lot Upside down as a Clam.


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## RWB

Todi,

Let me add... I'm not saying, "You got what you should of expected". I don't believe anyone who enters into a committed marriage ever expects to be cheated on. 

I surely didn't, could never imagine it, 30 years of marriage, good job, home, cars, kids off to college, prepping for retirement together... Find out she had been secretly EAPA cheating for years with Multiple OM. WTF.

Granted, I don't know your complete story. But, just in your 1st post, I lose count on the number of 2nd chances you have given her. And, those are the times she was caught. If there's one Universal Truth in regards to Cheaters and Affairs...

There is always More.


----------



## Todi

RWB said:


> No offense, but you married a confirmed cheater.


She was actually fed up in her previous marriage and ended up cheating with OM in the final hour.

She was also very up front and honest about that fact to me in the beginning of our relationship (pre-marriage.) So, you're correct that I knew she had a history and questionable morals on the subject. But, at the time, I took it as a positive that she was being so open and honest with me about everything at that point.

In hind sight, it should have been a bigger Red Flag for sure.


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## Todi

aine said:


> I would think that counselling should be tried first before you go through with the D. You must do everything possible for the marriage so that you know you have done just that when you make the decision to walk away.


That is the other option I was struggling with at the time last night. Giving it one last shot and trying ICMC in one last ditch effort to fix all the more minor issues in our marriage and to work on trust issues and accountability.

I will hate to have regrets that there is something I could have tried, but didn't. The conclusion I've come to at this point is that I've had 2.5 years to work on trust issues (albeit on my own) that I have very little faith that MC would help me trust my WW again. All the other things could probably be worked on, but not so much that one.

I believe I will need IC moving forward to help work on myself and regain a normal level of trust if anyone in the future will have a chance to connect with me.

I do appreciate your comment though. Especially since most people in places like this lean so far the other way. I was definitely hoping for perspective when I posted last night.


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## imjustwatching

Todi said:


> She was actually fed up in her previous marriage and ended up cheating with OM in the final hour.
> 
> She was also very up front and honest about that fact to me in the beginning of our relationship (pre-marriage.) So, you're correct that I knew she had a history and questionable morals on the subject. But, at the time, I took it as a positive that she was being so open and honest with me about everything at that point.
> 
> In hind sight, it should have been a bigger Red Flag for sure.


Well your just paying for your poor decision in life my friend marrying a cheater is one of them the second is staying after dday 1 and 2 ...

but just let me ask you because i really don't get it, what where you thinking at the time? she cheated on her first husband how did you think she wouldn't cheat on you too ?


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## Todi

Affaircare said:


> I have a newsflash for you--I am not sure you have trust issues. You 100% trust her: to be DISHONEST. Your issues are not with trust--your issue is with her HONESTY and that is because she has extremely consistently been dishonest!!


I hope your perspective is right. I actually have thought about that a lot.

I hope ALL of my trust issues lie with her as an individual. That something inside of me isn't broken at this point. Perhaps it's only broken when it comes to trusting HER.

I guess time will tell if I eventually find someone else and trigger on the same **** for no apparent reason. That's what I really fear the most and why I think IC might definitely be helpful either way.

I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond. The few post I was actually able to read before our BIG talk last night actually really helped and removed the lingering doubts that another chance might be warranted.


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## Yeswecan

Nochoice


> Until she exhibits the behavior of someone who has destroyed another's trust


This hits home. She does not understand or realize what she has destroyed. It does not register. Trust is simply meaningless to some.


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## Todi

imjustwatching said:


> but just let me ask you because i really don't get it, what where you thinking at the time? she cheated on her first husband how did you think she wouldn't cheat on you too ?


Good question.

I guess I decided to take her openness and honesty (at the time) as a good sign. She seemed remorseful and her previous marriage was already in shambles. Definitely no excuse for an EA or PA. I thought because _She didn't have to tell me anything_, but did, that it was a good thing...

I was also younger and much more Naive.


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## TRy

Todi said:


> The worst part was when she threw the fact that *I would have trust issues in any future relationships* in my face.


 Although you will have trust issues when selecting future partners, that selection process will help you find partners that are trustworthy, and that will earn your trust. Thus you will not "have trust issues in any future relationships", you will only "have trust issues in any future relationships" with her. When you find that trustworthy partner and feel what that feels like, you will wonder why you tolerated your current situations for so long.


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## Todi

Yeswecan said:


> Nochoice
> 
> 
> This hits home. She does not understand or realize what she has destroyed. It does not register. Trust is simply meaningless to some.


Yeah. Over our conversations the past few days, since I asked for D... I've kind of been shocked that she really didn't *Get It* until now.

It made me second guess whether I had adequately conveyed how much of an issue it was for me. Luckily, I found a two page letter I sent her over a year ago that pretty much made it clear how I felt at the time and how bad I thought her actions were. Divorce was clearly on the table at the time, but never "asked for." I gave her a copy of it and told her that nothing had really changed over the last year...

I was really surprised at how much she seemed to want to try to work on things NOW.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Todi said:


> *Some back story. * _(I'll keep it brief but I have previous posts with tons more details.)_
> 
> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..
> 
> The last year has gone by without incident, but I had told myself that I would re-evaluate my feelings after a year. After spending the last 6-8 weeks soul searching, I decided I could never fully trust again and that wasn't going to work for me. I'm sick of feeling like I need to check up on her when I trigger and that's why I told her I wanted a D. I have talked to an attorney and understand how things will most likely play out and am OK with it, even though it horribly impacts all of us involved....
> 
> Over the past several days, my wife has been begging for another chance and promising to finally go to counseling. Saying that she hasn't realized until right now (2.5 years later with a verbal declaration of D) how much of an issue this is for me. I think I communicated how close to DI was the previous two times.
> 
> We have other more "normal" issues that I think we could fix with counseling and some work, but the trust is the biggest thing for me. Something is broken inside of me and I'll always have trust issues. Especially with her.


Based on the narrative you present, you made the CORRECT choice. Your wife is utterly selfish and a serial cheat. She cares more about her needs and her ego boost than you. She is an attention addict and she will ALWAYS seek validation from other men. She's broken and there is nothing you can do to change her. Her crocodile tears are only after the fact of being discovered. She's sorry she got caught but she wasn't sorry about doing it. She CAN NOT be trusted and you deserve better than to be looking over your shoulder forever. 

You know all this already it seems. You got a good head on your shoulders, just muster up enough courage to follow through. I'm impressed with your clear thinking. You're in better shape than most BS that come on here. 




Todi said:


> It was heart breaking. The worst part was when she threw the fact that *I would have trust issues in any future relationships* in my face......
> 
> There have to be trustworthy people out there. I think I'm one...


I PROMISE you there are PLENTY of trustworthy people out there.

Cheaters ALWAYS assume everyone is a POS like them. They can't fathom that some people have morals because it would force them to accept the fact that they are truly scumbags by nature. So they have a, "it's not so bad because everyone does it" attitude. It's part of the twisted self justification that has to go on in their heads so they can sleep at night.


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## happy as a clam

happy as a clam said:


> Read lonelyhusband321's thread if you have time: Breached Trust. He is now divorced from his wife who had an EA. He took a similar position that he would never be able to trust her again and he did not back down from his decision to get divorced.


Todi, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I posted this earlier in this thread and want to make sure you didn't miss it.

I think you will find lh321's thread (linked above in the quote) immensely helpful, as his MAIN issue was one of TRUST -- not EAs, PAs, lies about it, etc. Mainly the fact that his wife had trashed him to the OM, undermined him, gas-lighted him, and he would never be able to *trust* her again because she didn't have his back. Which, one expects their spouse to have.

His divorce is final, and I honestly think he has few regrets. Except for what COULD have been if she had been trustworthy .


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## TRy

Todi said:


> She was actually fed up in her previous marriage and ended up cheating with OM in the final hour.


 Almost every cheater says that in explaining their cheating. Never mind that they usually forgot to tell their spouse this before they cheated. This is right out of the cheaters script.


----------



## azteca1986

Todi said:


> I was also younger and much more Naive.


Weren't we all? Don't beat yourself up about it.



> Over our conversations the past few days, since I asked for D... I've kind of been shocked that she really didn't *Get It* until now.


Oh, she got it all along. Only now she thinks your serious so she's talking the talk. Anything for you to give her *One More Chance*. To go with all the other ones...


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## Todi

happy as a clam said:


> Todi, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I posted this earlier in this thread and want to make sure you didn't miss it.
> 
> I think you will find lh321's thread (linked above in the quote) immensely helpful, as his MAIN issue was one of TRUST -- not EAs, PAs, lies about it, etc. Mainly the fact that his wife had trashed him to the OM, undermined him, gas-lighted him, and he would never be able to *trust* her again because she didn't have his back. Which, one expects their spouse to have.
> 
> His divorce is final, and I honestly think he has few regrets. Except for what COULD have been if she had been trustworthy .


Thank you. I actually book marked the thread when you posted it before but haven't had a chance to read it yet. I would definitely like to read it and the comments because it does sound like we ultimately have the same "Issue."

That is also probably one of the saddest things... I think my wife is pretty amazing in so many ways, and I will always wonder about "what *could have*been if she had been trustworthy."


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## alte Dame

The reasoning here is all twisted up, in my opinion. You may well have trust issues. If so, they came from somewhere. Your WW has caused some of them at the very least.

She has been very self-serving and has not cared how her behavior has made you feel. If she is worried that you have trust issues and will 'freak out,' then she should be a trustworthy wife. Instead, she hides what she is doing and then says she has done it to spare your feelings, because.....you have trust issues.

She absolves herself from responsibility by pointing a finger at your problems with trust. You buy into this and who could blame you? You now actually do have trust issues. They are not organic to you, though. She is a major cause.

Remember, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you.


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## happy as a clam

Todi said:


> That is also probably one of the saddest things... I think my wife is pretty amazing in so many ways, and I will always wonder "how about what *could have*been if she had been trustworthy."


Yep. lh321 ADORED his wife -- she was his perfect partner, she walked on water. They had a great life together.

But he could NOT get past how someone who you have shared your life with could ultimately stab you so deeply in the back.

Pour yourself a big snifter of something warm and yummy (alcohol-ish!) and settle back for an evening of reading. I think you will be very enlightened, and your resolve will be strengthened by the time you're done with his thread.

I wish you the very best.

Clam


----------



## Yeswecan

Todi said:


> Yeah. Over our conversations the past few days, since I asked for D... I've kind of been shocked that she really didn't *Get It* until now.
> 
> It made me second guess whether I had adequately conveyed how much of an issue it was for me. Luckily, I found a two page letter I sent her over a year ago that pretty much made it clear how I felt at the time and how bad I thought her actions were. Divorce was clearly on the table at the time, but never "asked for." I gave her a copy of it and told her that nothing had really changed over the last year...
> 
> I was really surprised at how much she seemed to want to try to work on things NOW.


Because your W is finally feeling a consequence for her poor decision. I'm thinking your W has not suffered any consequence prior to your relationship as well?


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## bigfoot

OP,

I think that your wife does not really "get it" as you suggested. I think what she gets is that divorce is imminent. She's been divorced before. She was, as I understood it, the one who had an exit affair, because she was done. She probably sees that same "I am done" feeling coming from you. 

No one likes rejection. Many BS's try so hard to grab hold of their waywards, because they don't want that rejection. Waywards have those same feelings. They don't want rejection. It's human nature.

Your wondering about "what could have been" is purely fanciful. It's like some guy wondering whether he could have gone pro in his sport of choice, if he had put in more effort. The answer is no. Maybe he could have been better, but would never have been a pro.

Your wife is not trustworthy. She justifies her cheating in her prior marriage. She ignored your plea to cut off her AP. Now she feels rejected. I'm not saying divorce to punish her, I say divorce because she is not good wife material. She can work on her stuff, but just like that guy who wonders if he could have gone pro, but the answer is no, she will never be trustworthy--to you. 

If, however, you are content to spend a life struggling with trust issues, then work it out with her. Does that mean that she won't be faithful? No, she might be faithful till the day you die. Still, you will spend the remainder of your life with trust issues, because SHE is the problem. You might question a new woman and have your doubts at times, but it will be different. An occasional twinge with a new woman because of the old woman is natural; but that won't last long.

Lastly, you probably need to get you some IC to see what attracted you to her and how you overlooked those huge red flags. You don't want to make the same mistake again by picking the same type of woman. Sadly, I see far too many BS's who have been cheated on by multiple partners. The thing is, they keep fishing from the same pond, with the same bait, and catching the same type cheater fish. 

Drop her, fix you, find someone new, live a happy fulfilled life. THAT is a formula for success.


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## Rafi

Todi,

Just proceed with the divorce papers, and see how she is reacting. Make her believe that is happening and see her reaction. You can stop it after if you feel that you have a chance to continue her live with her.


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## Todi

bigfoot said:


> If, however, you are content to spend a life struggling with trust issues, then work it out with her.


I've barely made it through 2.5 years of it. I won't go another day. After thinking about it after our conversation last night, I have decided NOT to give her another chance. The D will go forward... I refuse to live any more of my life struggling to trust HER.


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## bandit.45

> In your opinions... Can trust ever be fully regained (I'd settle for 90%) if the betrayed spouse *(me) has a history of holding grudges, *tending to see things as more more black and white and having no real solid examples of successful relationships from his childhood. I've already spent 2.5 years trying to deal with trust issues I've developed as of a result of her decisions to disregard my feelings and ultimately trying to hide things fro me.


I'm late to the game. 

You are not holding grudges. She violated your marriage, then you reacted by setting boundaries. She has continued to step over those boundaries and ignore your good graces. 

You are standing up for yourself and your integrity. Don't feel bad about that.


----------



## always_hopefull

Todi I would just like to say, that while you may have some trust issues after the D, it is much easier to talk yourself down. You will find it much easier to trust someone who does not have a history of hurting you. 

My exh used to tell me that I had anxieties and I'm just suspicious. That I will have these same problems in another relationship because it's "my" problem and not his fault. He stopped saying it when I would just say "somewhere out there is another man who married a woman like you and we can both learn to retrust". I'm now a few years out and I can promise you it's much easier to trust someone who doesn't have a history of cheating or betrayal. Stay the D course, you won't regret finding peace.


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## Todi

bandit.45 said:


> You are not holding grudges. She violated your marriage, then you reacted by setting boundaries. She has continued to step over those boundaries and ignore your good graces.
> 
> You are standing up for yourself and your integrity. Don't feel bad about that.


Yeah. I only brought up the holding grudges part because it's a good and bad trait of mine. I think too many people forgive too easily, but I also know that I can go a bit overboard holding grudges when most rational people have moved on...

I thought it might give insight into who I am and help with people giving advice on whether someone like me could ever regain enough trust to continue in a marriage like mine...

I had already determined that I didn't think it was possible, but I really was looking for the advice and experience of other outside parties.

I appreciate you picking up on it so I could elaborate a bit.


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## jnj express

she is now fighting tooth and nail---to keep the mge alive---cuz she is also older, and knows it won't be easy for her to get along on her own in the big wide world---specially with her past----

PAST HISTORY IS A PREDICTOR OF THE FUTURE-----she has it in her to wreck her relationships

There is nothing for you to think about-------if you stay----at some point the heat will be off, and she will seek the friendship/companionship of another male----it seems to be the way she is wired-------if you stay she will just trigger you


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## Affaircare

Todi said:


> ...She claimed that if she had approached me about wanting to talk to somebody that I would have freaked out. I think I would have been leery but OK with it since she was being open and honest.
> 
> Either way... I was never given the chance and she chose to make the decision for US and hide it from me altogether.


Todi, 

Let me pain a portrait for you so you can see this image crystal clearly, rather than the way she muddies it up and tries to hide the image. 

SHE COMMITTED ADULTERY. Let's not pretty this up with a bunch of flowery words--and FYI I say this as a former disloyal spouse myself. I'm not being hateful toward here--but rather I am calling it by it's proper name without shying away. She committed adultery in her first marriage and in this marriage. It would seem that she is very consistent in her view that marriage does not equal faithfulness or commitment to ONE PERSON. Now she may say words, but her actions speak for her--and she has bee consistent. 

Now after committing adultery, a person essentially has two choices: 

a) They can continue as they have been and really nothing changes: refuse to leave where they met the OP; refuse the drop the toxic friends; refuse to take personal responsibility; refuse to address their own issues; and refuse to go to counseling and look at themselves--in essence become a serial cheater probably with some sort of addiction to the thrill of the chase and infatuation. My GUESS (and I mean this sincerely) is that this person is someone whose self-worth is so shot they don't love themselves at all so they look to others to reassure them they are lovable. 

This is where I believe your wife is, and I would not consider giving this person a second chance because this type of person has not learned from the destruction and will likely repeat it. If there's no change...nothing changes 

-OR-

b) They can discontinue what they have been and completely change themselves: instantly leave wherever they met the OP and do not go back again to places like that for the foreseeable future; quickly drop the toxic friends and search out people who are wise who will encourage them to be a better person (aka "do the right thing even if it's hard); take personal responsibility for what THEY CHOSE to do, call it by its full name, work through the grief of their choice, and search themselves for the ***** in their armor that allowed such a thing to happen; begin to look at themselves and their own issues and continue to research and face their fears so they can become a better person and spouse; and search out competent, wise council (whether that be through a therapist, a counselor, a minister/pastor, or an older truly wise friend). [Look not all therapists are good or know how to address adultery! Not all pastors give wise advice anymore either!] In essence, do the work to change themselves and then seeing the damage and destruction they've wrought, do the hard work to rebuild what they destroyed! 

This is a person who *MAY *be worth a second chance, and even then it's not a requirement but a gift that is not "deserved." This person has hope that they are changing and learning from what they did. This person is not acting in the same way and is striving to do better. They may eventually become a better person and spouse, and it would be somewhat within reason to say "I'm willing to give you time to see how it goes." This person has a better chance of not repeating because this person is NOT THE SAME. 

If there's a change...things change 

____________________

Now, I brought all that up to address what your wife said. SHE is the one who committed adultery, not you. But let's assume that as a human being you are a bit jealous and when she comes to you with something you don't like, you tend to lose your temper with her. That's not indicated here but let's pretend, shall we? 

EVEN IF THAT'S TRUE, she added fuel to your jealousy fire by actually giving you something to be jealous OF! I personally always think marriage is giving 100% of your affection and loyalty to your spouse and only your spouse. See how that leaves 0% for anyone else? Well if you as a human being have a bit of a weakness toward jealousy, her job as a spouse is to act in a way that leaves not suspicion of evil to assist in soothing a jealous tendency! Not: "Well, since your jealous, I'm going to actually do what you're afraid of and then accuse of you feeling what I knew was a weakness!" That is not any percent of affection, nor of loyalty--in fact if anything it's loyalty to the OP over loyalty to you. 

Second, she wants to do things like offering a little percent of her affection and loyalty to someone else. These are YOURS to keep, as she promised them to you, but she does not want to hear you telling her she can not give away what is YOURS! So she uses the excuse that you "freak out." Well remember how we were assuming that you do, in fact "freak out" (honestly, you sound pretty level-headed to me)? What if you do? She behaved in a way that threatens what is yours. After actually doing what demolished the core foundation of the marriage, she then wants to do MORE OF THE SAME, and if you say 'no' or are shocked that she wants to keep behaving in that unfaithful way--then YOU are the "bad guy" and you're "freaking out." 

No. Just NO!

In real life, she thinks she is allowed to be unfaithful with no consequence. In real life she does have boundary issues looking for admiration wherever she can get it. In real life she may probably self-worth issues. But she is afraid to face HERSELF and rather than look at herself and do the work to change her inner compass, she points at YOU and says you'd "freak out." 

Todi, do not be fooled. Do you see the picture more clearly now?


----------



## Todi

Affaircare said:


> Todi, do not be fooled. Do you see the picture more clearly now?


Thanks Affaircare. I appreciate your insight and believe you are correct. It definitely paints a different picture when you think about it more logically and remove the emotion from it a bit.


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## LongWalk

Once the divorce is rolling, you can stop it. Nothing says you cannot date her and have some other type of relationship. Remarriage is allowed by law.

The bottom line is a woman her age who is twice divorced loses a lot of appeal on the LTR market. This though may bother her a lot more than just losing you. Hard to know her inner emotional life. Clearly she was ready to start up with that colleague if one reads between the lines. Maybe it was innocent and only related to some work issue. But why does she have men friends at all, given her history?

One alternative, don't know how practical it is, would be divorce but continue to cohabitate. Either or you could pull the plug. No cheating allowed. She needs therapy. But who doesn't?


----------



## Marduk

Dude, if she's only willing to go to counselling and work on her stuff when a D is on the table...

Well, then a D is always going to have to be on the table every time you have an issue.

Plus, this is a repeat behaviour. In two marriages. And multiple times with yours.

Seems like there's a common thread there.

Are you willing to live with that, forever?

If she loved you, would she be asking you to?


----------



## BrutalHonesty

> guy she cheated on her 1st husband with


If i was dating a divorced woman and this came to light i would drop her like a stone. Would never begin a relationship with someone with this kind of past. That is a standard i have.

I hope you find someone that treats you right man...


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## Todi

Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")

This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.

Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*

They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.

*Sigh*


----------



## Wolf1974

Todi said:


> Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")
> 
> This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.
> 
> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*


You have all the information you need about her character. It's time for damage control and to start the rest of your life, Yes divorce is hard but the rewards are wonderful when You do meet a good woman with character. Time to move in that direction.

Good luck sir. One day at a time.


----------



## happyman64

Todi said:


> Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")
> 
> This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.
> 
> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*


Todi

We all assumed the email from the coworker was inappropriate.

Now you know it is and your wife is just starting to phish for a new emotional rollercoaster with another man.

Trust your gut. It has not failed you so far.

Your wife has issues that only she can fix. 

And she has to want to fix them.

HM


----------



## TRy

Todi said:


> A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")


 When you say that this "male co-worker has consoled her", does that mean that she has been discussing her marital issues with him? If so that is a very big red flag, as that is her telling the other man (OM) that he is not wasting his time pursuing her. It is also a betrayal since such marital issues are suppose to be between the two of you, and mutually agreed upon friends of the marriage. Such inappropriate conversations are a prime indicator of an emotional affair (EA). You have been so gas lighted, and beaten-up by her constant inappropriate relationships with other men, that you are now second guessing yourself in calling her out for her bad behavior.



Todi said:


> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*


 This is her telling him in no uncertain terms that she is definitely interested in him.

Sorry but she is already crossing the line again with this OM. She is seeking male attention from him, and is definitely encouraging him to continue being a romantic orbiter in the hopes that he will be there when you are less than perfect.


----------



## TRy

Todi said:


> Thanks Affaircare. I appreciate your insight and believe you are correct. It definitely paints a different picture when you think about it more logically and remove the emotion from it a bit.


 Since some on this site have issues with Affaircare's advice because they feel that she is too forgiving of cheaters, and too encouraging of reconciliation as an answer, Affaircare pushing for divorce is a big deal. You should defiantly be open to Affaircare's advice in this matter.


----------



## Openminded

Some people just cannot be content in marriage without also having outside attention. That last email of hers to the co-worker you were suspicious tells you all you need to know.


----------



## Todi

I'm actually surprised this is hurting me so much right now. Reading these new E-mails is making me sick.

Sure, I asked for Divorce and turned down her requests to work on things. That was Last Night. I would think she might AT LEAST wait a few days before her and this dude start heating up. He definitely sees an opportunity... What a dou'che.

The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...

"I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."

"if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"

WTF!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Todi said:


> I'm actually surprised this is hurting me so much right now. Reading these new E-mails is making me sick.
> 
> Sure, I asked for Divorce and turned down her requests to work on things. That was Last Night. I would think she might AT LEAST wait a few days before her and this dude start heating up. He definitely sees an opportunity... What a dou'che.
> 
> The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...
> 
> "I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."
> 
> "if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"
> 
> WTF!


What you have here is proof that you're right to kick her to the curb. She's an inveterate cheater and you're well rid of her.

This also shows you can disregard her tears, "remorse" and desire to R. Even while she's ostensibly trying to save her marriage she's setting up an affair.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, he's a douche, but remember SHE suggested the "date" not him.


----------



## Todi

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, he's a douche, but remember SHE suggested the "date" not him.


Totally. I'm wondering if she will respond...

Is it sad that I still feel guilty for spying...

=(


----------



## aine

Todi said:


> Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")
> 
> This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.
> 
> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*


If she was really that concerned about saving the marriage, she would NOT be engaging in this kind of communication. In fact she should not be having these kind of communications period. You are doing the right thing.


----------



## Dyokemm

" I think too many people forgive too easily"

I agree.

Forgiveness is such a mantra in our society that not extending it is viewed as a blight on or defect in a victim.

Unfortunately, I think this plays into the hands of people who commit betrayals, injuries, and hurtful acts towards others.

These scumbags have become socially conditioned to EXPECT forgiveness.

For example, how many WS's on these threads have gotten angry with their BS's for not putting the cheating in the past and 'moving on'....or for continuing to bring it up?

They believe they are entitled to forgiveness...and their BS is expected to give it.

And this social phenomena extends to other situations than just infidelity.


----------



## Todi

happy as a clam said:


> Todi, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I posted this earlier in this thread and want to make sure you didn't miss it.
> 
> I think you will find lh321's thread (linked above in the quote) immensely helpful, as his MAIN issue was one of TRUST -- not EAs, PAs, lies about it, etc. Mainly the fact that his wife had trashed him to the OM, undermined him, gas-lighted him, and he would never be able to trust her again because she didn't have his back. Which, one expects their spouse to have.


Thanks. I made it through about 24 pages in lh321's thread today. It's a long thread though. Definitely some good insight and some crossover...

I'll try to make it through it this week. I'll need the distraction.


----------



## alte Dame

She's quite the actress. She's devastated in front of you and sending flirty texts and smiley faces to another man the next day.

You feel hurt by this because you want to be important enough to her for her tears to be real. They don't seem to be, though. They look more like an act. 

There was a poster here a few years ago who was an admitted serial cheater. He was posting here because he was trying to mend his ways and be a better man. He confessed all of his infidelities to his W and was hoping that she would agree to try to reconcile. I found his experience very, very informative and at one point asked him whether his W had agreed to give him a chance. He said, "No, I had pulled the wool over her eyes so easily before that I was hoping I could do it again, but she was smarter and tougher than I expected.'

So, he was playing her throughout the marriage (even though he said she was the only woman he had ever loved) & even after his 'epiphany,' he played her. He put on the act, hoping to get what he wanted. Your WW reminds me of him.


----------



## Gitsoms

Todi said:


> *Some back story. * _(I'll keep it brief but I have previous posts with tons more details.)_
> 
> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..
> 
> The last year has gone by without incident, but I had told myself that I would re-evaluate my feelings after a year. After spending the last 6-8 weeks soul searching, I decided I could never fully trust again and that wasn't going to work for me. I'm sick of feeling like I need to check up on her when I trigger and that's why I told her I wanted a D. I have talked to an attorney and understand how things will most likely play out and am OK with it, even though it horribly impacts all of us involved....
> 
> Over the past several days, my wife has been begging for another chance and promising to finally go to counseling. Saying that she hasn't realized until right now (2.5 years later with a verbal declaration of D) how much of an issue this is for me. I think I communicated how close to DI was the previous two times.
> 
> We have other more "normal" issues that I think we could fix with counseling and some work, but the trust is the biggest thing for me. Something is broken inside of me and I'll always have trust issues. Especially with her.
> 
> *Here's my question.*
> 
> In your opinions... Can trust ever be fully regained (I'd settle for 90%) if the betrayed spouse (me) has a history of holding grudges, tending to see things as more more black and white and having no real solid examples of successful relationships from his childhood. I've already spent 2.5 years trying to deal with trust issues I've developed as of a result of her decisions to disregard my feelings and ultimately trying to hide things fro me.
> 
> I don't think (or feel) that I ever could, but it's breaking my heart that she is fighting so hard in the final hour... I second guess myself that I didn't make my feeling clear enough for her or that I rug swept a bit and didn't make her face true accountability for what happened. If it wasn't for the kids, it would probably be an easier decision. I KNOW that I will never 100% trust my wife again and I refuse to feel like I need to check up on her EVER. If that's the only alternative, D is definitely what I want.
> 
> Should I give her one last chance, or should I follow through with the D?!? Even if I give her another chance, I have NO idea how she could possibly help me with my trust issues at this point. I don't believe it's something within her power to fix.
> 
> Telling her I wanted a D was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life and the next couple of days of her sobbing broken heatedly has almost killed me. I can't imagine ever being able to do that to her again in the future, but it could come to that if I give her a 2nd chance.... I'm somewhat confused, but leaning towards following through with the D.
> 
> I appreciate any responses or anyone that takes the time to read this... I'm mostly trying to vent and work through my own feelings at this point, but I will need to answer her tonight or tomorrow either way.
> 
> =(


I think the obvious question that no one appears to be asking is "do you still love her?" Im not asking about what she did, or whether you still trust her, just answer that question for me if you can please.


----------



## Todi

Gitsoms said:


> I think the obvious question that no one appears to be asking is "do you still love her?" Im not asking about what she did, or whether you still trust her, just answer that question for me if you can please.


I will always love her. But never again like a husband needs to love a wife for a marriage to work. I realize that now.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Todi said:


> Totally. I'm wondering if she will respond...
> 
> Is it sad that I still feel guilty for spying...
> 
> =(


No, it is understandable. We've been taught to respect privacy, when there are certain levels that are unacceptable in a serious relationship.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

Todi said:


> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*


That's your sign man. It's go time with no looking back. 

Just do it. It's soooo obvious she does not "get it."


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Gitsoms said:


> I think the obvious question that no one appears to be asking is "do you still love her?" Im not asking about what she did, or whether you still trust her, just answer that question for me if you can please.


Well, I'm not asking because he gave her multiple chances and was still conflicted at first. Love makes you do things that you would never do for a regular person or acquittance


----------



## Happilymarried25

You don't want her anymore and someone does. Why should this bother you? What would bother me more is when she remarries some other guy being Daddy to your children because you left your family, that's why a lot of men in your situation stay in the marriage untill the children are out of the house.


----------



## RWB

Todi said:


> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*


Damn, Just Damn, Enough?


----------



## Decorum

Todi said:


> I'm actually surprised this is hurting me so much right now. Reading these new E-mails is making me sick.
> 
> Sure, I asked for Divorce and turned down her requests to work on things. That was Last Night. I would think she might AT LEAST wait a few days before her and this dude start heating up. He definitely sees an opportunity... What a dou'che.
> 
> The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...
> 
> "I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."
> 
> "if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"
> 
> WTF!


UFB



alte Dame said:


> She's quite the actress. She's devastated in front of you and sending flirty texts and smiley faces to another man the next day.
> 
> You feel hurt by this because you want to be important enough to her for her tears to be real. They don't seem to be, though. They look more like an act.


Listen to what Alte Dame is saying and don't beat yourself up, this is her issue!

She loves attention more than she can love any particular man. Don't be shocked, she has done this all along. Its who she is. Believe it!

This is why you are divorcing her.


----------



## LongWalk

Tell your wife nothing about your information. Explain to her that your know that she is friendly and her friendships with OM put her in a position to jeopardize her marriage without even intending to.

There is chocolate cake in the fridge and she has to sneak a bite. You understand that. You forgive her for her weakness but you just cannot live with it.


----------



## Divinely Favored

"Under both our circumstances"....
I do believe he has been trashing his wife, to your wife also..... she ought to know how her hubby is trying to get chummy with your wife. MHO


----------



## BrutalHonesty

Some guys have this hyena behaviour. They only have to smell something nasty and they will jump at it with feeding frenzy. He definitely got a scent there with this "wife". Sorry for you Todi.


----------



## Yeswecan

Todi said:


> Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")
> 
> This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.
> 
> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*



Your fears are not unfounded. Move forward with your resolve. You do not need to spend your life like this. Your W has a history of untruths, distrust and infidelity. She will not change.


----------



## Yeswecan

Todi said:


> I'm actually surprised this is hurting me so much right now. Reading these new E-mails is making me sick.
> 
> Sure, I asked for Divorce and turned down her requests to work on things. That was Last Night. I would think she might AT LEAST wait a few days before her and this dude start heating up. He definitely sees an opportunity... What a dou'che.
> 
> The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...
> 
> "I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."
> 
> "if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"
> 
> WTF!


Cut and run sir. Cut and run. Oh, have her served at work.


----------



## Yeswecan

Todi said:


> Totally. I'm wondering if she will respond...
> 
> Is it sad that I still feel guilty for spying...
> 
> =(


You are not spying....you are protecting and monitoring your interests. 

I recommend the 180 at this point and preparations for a D.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Todi said:


> I'm actually surprised this is hurting me so much right now. Reading these new E-mails is making me sick.
> 
> Sure, I asked for Divorce and turned down her requests to work on things. That was Last Night. I would think she might AT LEAST wait a few days before her and this dude start heating up. He definitely sees an opportunity... What a dou'che.
> 
> The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...
> 
> "I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."
> 
> "if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"
> 
> WTF!


Many of us have been there for what it's worth. You are not alone. My ex was balling her eyes out to me that she wanted to save her family while STILL sleeping with the OM. It was incredibly hurtful that her words meant nothing. They tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear while they continue to deceive you without losing an ounce of sleep. That's not remorse. She's only looking out for HER own self interest. Love is selfless. She does NOT love you!

Any type of reconciliation at this point would make you defacto PLAN B. And she will continue to shop around for new men because she lost ALL respect for you when you took her back. Who wants to be in a marriage like that? Take control and break the codependency. You have ALL the power not her. Dump her immediately, hit the gym hard, do a 180 and prepare for the divorce. 

Accept that she is unsalvageable...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Your wife seems to be on the sociopathic side. Whatever person she ends up with, will be going through the same. You have to realize this is how she is built. Whether genetics, or her parents, she is going to be this way towards everyone.

I know your hurting now, since you found out that you do not matter to her, and the person you fell in love with, may have never existed, plus, you do not really know the level of her betrayal.

You just found out that your wife is not who she has shown, and you now have to wonder what was fake, and what was authentic. She may be incapable of forming healthy attachments like most people.

I seriously doubt that there is anything that will, or can fix her.

Worry about you, and take care of yourself.


----------



## happy as a clam

BetrayedDad said:


> They tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear...


Amen, brother...



Mr.Fisty said:


> Your wife seems to be on the sociopathic side. Whatever person she ends up with, will be going through the same....


So true, so true..

OP, you deserve FAR MORE than this...


----------



## altawa

foolscotton3 said:


> "We will never move forward till you forget about the past."


Yeah....I hate that line. I get that one too. I fvcking hate it. And, I mean, what do you say to that, really? Once they are in that mindset, how do you really get them out of it?


----------



## azteca1986

altawa said:


> Once they are in that mindset, how do you really get them out of it?


Move forward without them.


----------



## bandit.45

Todi said:


> Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")
> 
> This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.
> 
> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*


She just doesn't get it. 

No boundaries at all. None. She is open to all comers.


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> She just doesn't get it.
> 
> No boundaries at all. None. She is open to all comers.


----------



## TRy

Todi said:


> The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...
> 
> "I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."
> 
> "if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"


 When the other man (OM) said to your wife "I like you too", the "too" confirms that she already made it clear to him that she likes him prior to this. It is now obvious that her relationship with him was not based on them seeking an innocent purely platonic friendship. 

Prior to you telling your wife that you wanted a divorce, she was in appropriately communicating with a guy that is now openly willing to have an affair with her. Do not let her spin it that she only started up with this guy because you wanted a divorce, because regardless of you talking to her about divorce or not, this guy was already in play with your wife. Please remember that to cheaters all inappropriate relationships with other men are supposedly platonic, right up until the other man sticks his d*ck into her; to a cheater, anything less then him sticking his d*ck in her is not cheating (I am being crude for effect).


----------



## GusPolinski

TRy said:


> When the other man (OM) said to your wife "I like you too", the "too" confirms that she already made it clear to him that she likes him prior to this. It is now obvious that her relationship with him was not based on them seeking an innocent purely platonic friendship.
> 
> Prior to you telling your wife that you wanted a divorce, she was in appropriately communicating with a guy that is now openly willing to have an affair with her. Do not let her spin it that she only started up with this guy because you wanted a divorce, because regardless of you talking to her about divorce or not, this guy was already in play with your wife. Please remember that to cheaters all inappropriate relationships with other men are supposedly platonic, right up until the other man sticks his d*ck into her; to a cheater, anything less then him sticking his d*ck in her is not cheating (I am being crude for effect).


OM is married as well, right? If so, definitely let his wife know what's up.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

My only comment would be that he EA's were probably PA's, and you hadn't seen that part of it. Out of curiosity, will you tell her that you saw her texts/e-mails from yesterday that clearly demonstrates her wh0reishness?


----------



## azteca1986

GusPolinski said:


> OM is married as well, right? If so, definitely let his wife know what's up.


I agree, but OP has to get the divorce nailed down beforehand.

Quite often OMW is the last to know that they are 'divorcing', 'in an open marriage', 'roommates' or 'cheated on him'. We've heard it all. She needs to be told but OP has to pick the opportune time as he has no interest in R.


----------



## Todi

Divinely Favored said:


> "Under both our circumstances"....
> I do believe he has been trashing his wife, to your wife also..... she ought to know how her hubby is trying to get chummy with your wife. MHO


I've thought about that too... Maybe after we've figured our situation out I'll send her the transcripts.


----------



## Todi

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My only comment would be that he EA's were probably PA's, and you hadn't seen that part of it. Out of curiosity, will you tell her that you saw her texts/e-mails from yesterday that clearly demonstrates her wh0reishness?


Not until my divorce is well on it's way. We have a chance of going about this rather peacefully atm. If I start throwing bombs at this point, it all down hill and piles of cash.



azteca1986 said:


> I agree, but OP has to get the divorce nailed down beforehand.
> 
> Quite often OMW is the last to know that they are 'divorcing', 'in an open marriage', 'roommates' or 'cheated on him'. We've heard it all. She needs to be told but OP has to pick the opportune time as he has no interest in R.


Exactly what I was thinking...


----------



## GusPolinski

Also...



Todi said:


> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (*2 young kids*) I wanted a D. *She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex* and I gave her another chance. *She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex* (guy *she cheated on her 1st husband* with.) I gave her another chance. *She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground*, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..


Do I really need to say it...?


----------



## Todi

GusPolinski said:


> Also...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I really need to say it...?


The kids aren't 2 years old. There are 2 young kids... But yes. i should probably DNA my kids. =) At this point, I believe every man should just in case...


----------



## Primrose

Wow, your wife sure is a piece of work. Already moving on to the next prospect? You definitely are making the right decision.


----------



## Happilymarried25

Todi said:


> The kids aren't 2 years old. There are 2 young kids... But yes. i should probably DNA my kids. =) At this point, I believe every man should just in case...


No not every man should take a DNA test just because your wife cheated and now you have doubts about your children. I have not touched any man but my husband for 29 years so my husband doesn't need to take a DNA test.


----------



## azteca1986

Happilymarried25 said:


> No not every man should take a DNA test just because your wife cheated and now you have doubts about your children. *I have not touched any man but my husband for 29 years* so my husband doesn't need to take a DNA test.


You know this with certainty. Your husband does not. Paternity fraud is something most women just don't understand.


----------



## LongWalk

Your WW doesn't see herself as an evil person. She is confused and wishes she had control of herself but she is so far from that. Now that the shyte has hit the fan, her solution is to reach out and guide OM's penis in her direction. This makes no sense since this precisely what has exploded your marriage. Maybe it's sort of like a fat person whose life is a mess running to the fridge to shove more food in. Any self destructive addictive/impulsive behavior means avoiding working on self.


----------



## Divinely Favored

altawa said:


> foolscotton3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "We will never move forward till you forget about the past."
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah....I hate that line. I get that one too. I fvcking hate it. And, I mean, what do you say to that, really? Once they are in that mindset, how do you really get them out of it?
Click to expand...

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"


----------



## workindad

Todi said:


> The kids aren't 2 years old. There are 2 young kids... But yes. i should probably DNA my kids. =) At this point, I believe every man should just in case...


I did this with mine. It is cheap, easy, quick, and private.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Happilymarried25 said:


> No not every man should take a DNA test just because your wife cheated and now you have doubts about your children.


I agree. It should be part of the testing panels administered to the mother and child before or after birth. Remove the entire "OMG you don't trust me" from the situation.


----------



## gouge_away

At least you know, you gave it over a year and a half of consideration, she gave it all she had to offer to on this marriage.

In the end, she had nothing to offer you, and took your time for granted.


----------



## GusPolinski

Todi said:


> The kids aren't 2 years old. There are 2 young kids...


I get that. My point was to say that, for all you know, your wife's affairs (a) may have indeed been physical and (b) may have been going on for much longer than you're currently aware.



Todi said:


> But yes. i should probably DNA my kids. =) At this point, I believe every man should just in case...


Sad, isn't it?


----------



## xakulax

Happilymarried25 said:


> *No not every man should take a DNA test just because your wife cheated* and now you have doubts about your children. I have not touched any man but my husband for 29 years so my husband doesn't need to take a DNA test.




 :rofl:



If she's willing to cheat, deceive, and put you at risk of std's then why wouldn't she lie about the paternity of the children..


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
Your wife has the mentality of a 6 year old, you cannot change that no matter how hard you try or how badly you want to. I want you to seriously consider this; her marriage is ending, her family is disintegrating, her kids are about to be from a broken home and her H is hurting and yet in the midst of all of this, getting a beer with a cheating slimeball would be awesome. Have you really considered this one statement as it pertains to her intellectual aptitude?

This speaks volumes. I could not think of a more damning piece of evidence. It is truly all encompassing. If you have doubted for even a nanosecond that you are not doing the right thing just reread that text and be convinced. I wish you and your kids good fortune.


----------



## happy as a clam

NoChoice said:


> I want you to seriously consider this; her marriage is ending, her family is disintegrating, her kids are about to be from a broken home and her H is hurting *and yet in the midst of all of this, getting a beer with a cheating slimeball would be awesome.* Have you really considered this one statement as it pertains to her *intellectual aptitude?*
> 
> This speaks volumes. I could not think of a more damning piece of evidence. It is truly all encompassing. If you have doubted for even a nanosecond that you are not doing the right thing just reread that text and be convinced. I wish you and your kids good fortune.


Brilliant. Simply brilliant.


----------



## Todi

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Your wife has the mentality of a 6 year old, you cannot change that no matter how hard you try or how badly you want to. I want you to seriously consider this; her marriage is ending, her family is disintegrating, her kids are about to be from a broken home and her H is hurting and yet in the midst of all of this, getting a beer with a cheating slimeball would be awesome. Have you really considered this one statement as it pertains to her intellectual aptitude?
> 
> This speaks volumes. I could not think of a more damning piece of evidence. It is truly all encompassing. If you have doubted for even a nanosecond that you are not doing the right thing just reread that text and be convinced. I wish you and your kids good fortune.


Yeah. It still hurts to be privy to these details. Even in the final hour. But it has really solidified my resolve and really does release me from any doubt that I'm doing the right thing.

It's also a bit ironic that I was having a really good day last week before asking for D, thinking we could work on things... Then I casually noticed the E-mail from this OM. "Hey, Here's my phone number just in case..." This guy was the final straw for me and Ended our marriage and she has no idea.

Even last night and this morning, she was telling me that this isn't what she wants and was trying to convince me to stay and work on things. All the while keeping this guy warm Just In Case...

It kills me not to throw this knowledge in her face. I've decided to keep it to myself until we have finalized our divorce... Why make waves now.


----------



## snerg

xakulax said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> If she's willing to cheat, deceive, and put you at risk of std's then why wouldn't she lie about the paternity of the children..


BOOM.

Spoken as if it's gospel.


----------



## tech-novelist

I don't like divorce very much, but sometimes it is the best solution. Yours sounds like one of those cases, since it is obvious that your wife has no interest in being faithful to you.

Get the divorce over with while she's still in a good mood thinking about the other man (or men).


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Todi said:


> Even last night and this morning, she was telling me that this isn't what she wants and was trying to convince me to stay and work on things. All the while keeping this guy warm Just In Case...
> 
> It kills me not to throw this knowledge in her face. I've decided to keep it to myself until we have finalized our divorce... Why make waves now.


At this point, telling her that you know she is still being unfaithful would only make the D process harder.

Just be glad that she's doing this right out of the gate and not 2 years from now. She's not going to stop. Not going to change. I'm guessing that the main reason that she wants to stay married to you is the comfort you offer.

Once you're gone all's she'll have is these men that just want to get in her pants. They want no commitment. They'll run as soon as she tries to pin them down.

That's why they like married women. They're only there for the sex and their husbands can take care of every thing else.


----------



## the guy

I'd follow through with the divorce and have her served. It will be interesting to see how bad she wants the marriage. The communications with OM will go either two ways...

"My marriage is falling apart and divorcing... I need to focus on saving this so please don't contact me"

or

"My marriage is falling apart and divorcing so when can we get that beer?"

I'm curious to see how the OM replies.It could prove GROUNDPOUNDERS point if OM doesn't reply at all.....once OM realizes she is his problem now.


----------



## Sports Fan

At first reading your post i was leaning in advising to give her another chance with ultra strict clear boundaries, like access to all accounts, passwords, complete transparancy on whereabouts etc.

But after reading the below responses and email from the work colleague it is crystal clear your wife has no boundaries.

Have her served then take some time to reassess the matter after 3 months. Time will tell how badly your wife wants to change or if she just wants you around for the comforts you provide.


----------



## Yeswecan

Sports Fan said:


> At first reading your post i was leaning in advising to give her another chance with ultra strict clear boundaries, like access to all accounts, passwords, complete transparancy on whereabouts etc.
> 
> But after reading the below responses and email from the work colleague it is crystal clear your wife has no boundaries.
> 
> Have her served then take some time to reassess the matter after 3 months. Time will tell how badly your wife wants to change or if she just wants you around for the comforts you provide.


There will be nothing to reassess. As pointed out, D statement was made, family crumbling and kids with separated parents. W is already working another A with a coworker. OP is a comfort zone. W will never change. OP decision to D is well founded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Todi said:


> Wife finally got home from work and we talked. As hard as it was... I stuck to my decision to go forward with the divorce.
> 
> It was heart breaking. The worst part was when she threw the fact that *I would have trust issues in any future relationships* in my face. As if I hadn't already thought of that...
> 
> Staying with her and working on existing trust issues or moving on and working on myself to fix what might be broken... Especially when I can't imagine if roles were reversed I would have ever made similar choices as she did. Doesn't seem fair for her to throw that at me at this point. I'm WELL aware.
> 
> There have to be trustworthy people out there. I think I'm one...


Sorry I'm just seeing this now. She's right, you will have trust issues in your future relationships. Until you meet the woman who is trustworthy, understanding and loves you enough to help you work through them. That's what happened to me and we've been happily married for almost three decades now. Trust me on this.


----------



## convert

Todi said:


> Yeah. It still hurts to be privy to these details. Even in the final hour. But it has really solidified my resolve and really does release me from any doubt that I'm doing the right thing.
> 
> It's also a bit ironic that I was having a really good day last week before asking for D, thinking we could work on things... Then I casually noticed the E-mail from this OM. "Hey, Here's my phone number just in case..." This guy was the final straw for me and Ended our marriage and she has no idea.
> 
> Even last night and this morning, she was telling me that this isn't what she wants and was trying to convince me to stay and work on things. All the while keeping this guy warm Just In Case...
> 
> *It kills me not to throw this knowledge in her face.* I've decided to keep it to myself until we have finalized our divorce... Why make waves now.


I know what you mean.

you could say that you got a call from his wife about the texting, but it would just drive it farther under ground.
and at this point it sounds like it does not matter for you.

I would at some point get the information to his wife. He is married right? I thought i read that he was

be sure and save screen shots of these texts in a safe place for his wife


----------



## LongWalk

Don't say anything. Even after D, don't mention it. Knowledge is power.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sports Fan said:


> At first reading your post i was leaning in advising to give her another chance with ultra strict clear boundaries, like access to all accounts, passwords, complete transparancy on whereabouts etc.
> 
> But after reading the below responses and email from the work colleague it is crystal clear your wife has no boundaries.
> 
> Have her served then take some time to reassess the matter after 3 months. Time will tell how badly your wife wants to change or if she just wants you around for the comforts you provide.


Sorry, have to disagree as there is nothing to reassess. Time has told him everything he needs to know. In less than three years she has had contact with 3 men, two after reconciliation and boundaries being set. He has reassessed, tried to reconcile, reassessed again and if he does so again it would be the third time. 


> She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react.


Two chances, he reassess after a year and she helps him by making contact with a guy for the third mistake. I take that back a choice. First time may be a mistake, this is number three and she is making choices now. She would have gone for a beer, WTF, when he decided to come to her wanting a divorce. So, she is STILL actively pursuing friendships or more outside of a reconciliation.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Todi said:


> Even last night and this morning, she was telling me that this isn't what she wants and was trying to convince me to stay and work on things. All the while keeping this guy warm Just In Case...


My ex did the same exact thing. Common serial cheater tactic.

She's in self preservation mode. She doesn't want you, she just doesn't want to be alone and ANY warm body will do. So she will keep both of you on the back burner until she ends up with someone. Classic cake eating. She had no remorse except for getting caught. She's not willing to do ANY heavy lifting. If you took her back there WILL be another guy because the respect is GONE.

Bottom line is you married a dud. It's happened to a lot of us here. It's not like they wear a sign around their neck advertising the fact. Now you know the red flags. Learn from it and find someone whose not broken and selfish. You're a catch, trust me. Once you start dating again, you'll realize that.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

She is really good at compartmentalization. She presents you with a certain image, someone she thinks that you will stay with, be her husband. The side she does not want you to see is the one where she needs the high of a new relationship to get her fix. She may be a love addict, in the sense, she needs the hormonal high. Similar people would be adrenaline junkies.

You cannot function the way you want in order to be with her.

She may genuinely love you, but she has a major issue that she cannot be in the relationship you want. She cannot offer security. and your not guarantee that she will not find someone more compatible than you. You offer a certain element of normal in her life which she craves as well. She wants to play the wife and mother role with you.


----------



## helolover

Todi said:


> *Some back story. * _(I'll keep it brief but I have previous posts with tons more details.)_
> 
> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..
> 
> The last year has gone by without incident, but I had told myself that I would re-evaluate my feelings after a year. After spending the last 6-8 weeks soul searching, I decided I could never fully trust again and that wasn't going to work for me. I'm sick of feeling like I need to check up on her when I trigger and that's why I told her I wanted a D. I have talked to an attorney and understand how things will most likely play out and am OK with it, even though it horribly impacts all of us involved....
> 
> Over the past several days, my wife has been begging for another chance and promising to finally go to counseling. Saying that she hasn't realized until right now (2.5 years later with a verbal declaration of D) how much of an issue this is for me. I think I communicated how close to DI was the previous two times.
> 
> We have other more "normal" issues that I think we could fix with counseling and some work, but the trust is the biggest thing for me. Something is broken inside of me and I'll always have trust issues. Especially with her.
> 
> *Here's my question.*
> 
> In your opinions... Can trust ever be fully regained (I'd settle for 90%) if the betrayed spouse (me) has a history of holding grudges, tending to see things as more more black and white and having no real solid examples of successful relationships from his childhood. I've already spent 2.5 years trying to deal with trust issues I've developed as of a result of her decisions to disregard my feelings and ultimately trying to hide things fro me.
> 
> I don't think (or feel) that I ever could, but it's breaking my heart that she is fighting so hard in the final hour... I second guess myself that I didn't make my feeling clear enough for her or that I rug swept a bit and didn't make her face true accountability for what happened. If it wasn't for the kids, it would probably be an easier decision. I KNOW that I will never 100% trust my wife again and I refuse to feel like I need to check up on her EVER. If that's the only alternative, D is definitely what I want.
> 
> Should I give her one last chance, or should I follow through with the D?!? Even if I give her another chance, I have NO idea how she could possibly help me with my trust issues at this point. I don't believe it's something within her power to fix.
> 
> Telling her I wanted a D was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do in my life and the next couple of days of her sobbing broken heatedly has almost killed me. I can't imagine ever being able to do that to her again in the future, but it could come to that if I give her a 2nd chance.... I'm somewhat confused, but leaning towards following through with the D.
> 
> I appreciate any responses or anyone that takes the time to read this... I'm mostly trying to vent and work through my own feelings at this point, but I will need to answer her tonight or tomorrow either way.
> 
> =(


Trusting someone 100% leads to expectations and downfalls. I recommend you re-examine this in all of your interpersonal relationships. Trust YOURSELF 100%. 

She is not responsible to fix your trust issues. That is YOURS to fix, Todi. *All of your issues are YOURS to fix*. Don't pick your next partner on her ability to fix your trust issues. Fix yourself first, then work on your relationships. I cannot stress this enough. Get counseling. Emotionally disconnect from her and this situation, develop your relationships with your male friends and take care of your kids. 

It appears you put a lot of arbitrary deadlines on yourself. Why? one year - today - tomorrow - a few days..... just let it go for a minute. You put yourself under the gun for some reason. 

Whether you stay in any of your relationships or move on, the key to your salvation is your self improvement.


----------



## happy as a clam

BetrayedDad said:


> Bottom line is *you married a dud.* It's happened to a lot of us here.


Ouch. Painful, but so true .


----------



## bandit.45

helolover said:


> Trusting someone 100% leads to expectations and downfalls. I recommend you re-examine this in all of your interpersonal relationships. Trust YOURSELF 100%.
> 
> She is not responsible to fix your trust issues. That is YOURS to fix, Todi. *All of your issues are YOURS to fix*. Don't pick your next partner on her ability to fix your trust issues. Fix yourself first, then work on your relationships. I cannot stress this enough. Get counseling. Emotionally disconnect from her and this situation, develop your relationships with your male friends andj take care of your kids.
> 
> It appears you put a lot of arbitrary deadlines on yourself. Why? one year - today - tomorrow - a few days..... just let it go for a minute. You put yourself under the gun for some reason.
> 
> Whether you stay in any of your relationships or move on, the key to your salvation is your self improvement.


Yeah.

But...

It is her job to facilitate his trust.


----------



## helolover

bandit.45 said:


> But...
> 
> It is her job to facilitate his trust.


no doubt. she failed at that. his only back up is himself.


----------



## jsmart

Todi said:


> *Some back story. * _(I'll keep it brief but I have previous posts with tons more details.)_
> 
> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. *She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.)* I gave her another chance. She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground, but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..
> 
> =(


I would bet big money that the supposed EA with her ex was actually a PA and was probably going on far longer than you think. Come on, they already had that intimacy. so easy to just pick up again. 

The fact that she did the same thing in her first marriage with same guy leads me to believe he could have been her true plan A but the guy never was interested in her that way. So she gets married again this time to you.


----------



## jsmart

Todi said:


> *She was actually fed up in her previous marriage and ended up cheating with OM in the final hour.*
> 
> She was also very up front and honest about that fact to me in the beginning of our relationship (pre-marriage.) So, you're correct that I knew she had a history and questionable morals on the subject. But, at the time, I took it as a positive that she was being so open and honest with me about everything at that point.
> 
> In hind sight, it should have been a bigger Red Flag for sure.


That was her rewriting the marriage history. She'll do the same with you. Tell future boyfriends/husbands that you were the cause of problems.

You accepted the story because you fell in love with her but that should have been a deal breaker for you.


----------



## jsmart

Todi said:


> Feeling more secure in my choice right now... I've been shamelessly monitoring my wife's communications today. A male co-worker has consoled her a few times (yes. The "Here's my phone number just in case guy.")
> 
> This is the guy I caught wind of, and triggered hard, last Wednesday. The night before I told her I wanted to D.
> 
> Her last reply to him stated *"I really wanted to ask you to go get a beer last night, but figured under both our circumstances that might not be the best idea!  although it would've been completely awesome!"*
> 
> They are definitely Chummy and it sounds like it was another inappropriate male co-worker relationship brewing. Just as I had feared.
> 
> *Sigh*


This is beyond chummy. That was already an EA that was heading to PA. Being that she's a serial cheater, it can go to PA really quickly with her. They were discussing logistics.


----------



## jsmart

Todi said:


> *I'm actually surprised this is hurting me so much right now. Reading these new E-mails is making me sick.*
> 
> Sure, I asked for Divorce and turned down her requests to work on things. That was Last Night. I would think she might AT LEAST wait a few days before her and this dude start heating up. He definitely sees an opportunity... What a dou'che.
> 
> The quotes below are from the dude's last E-mail...
> 
> "I would have loved to go get a beer....probably would have raised some unwanted suspicion, but I pretty much don't really care."
> 
> "if your in the city or whatever, we should go hang out....I'll leave work to hang out with you anytime!!! Um, just in case you didn't know already, I like you too....probably more than I should right now  is that bad?"
> 
> WTF!


We on this board can't lie an say that this isn't going to be painful. As bad as her cheating is, it doesn't erase the good times that caused you to fall in love, marry, and have kids with her. 

But you did the soul searching and realized that you can't live like this. I mean come on, while your thinking about the future of your marriage and family, she's knee deep in another EA that was obviously heading to a PA within days.


----------



## RWB

jsmart said:


> This is beyond chummy. That was already an EA that was heading to PA. *Being that she's a serial cheater, it can go to PA really quickly with her*. They were discussing logistics.


Seen this first hand. My FWW admitted this... she went from text/email/phone calls to the hotel room in less than 2 weeks with OM3.


----------



## LongWalk

The brutal reality is that some people don't have their sexual behavior under control. Furthermore, having sex becomes a transaction to solve problems.


----------



## RWB

LongWalk said:


> The brutal reality is that some people don't have their sexual behavior under control. *Furthermore, having sex becomes a transaction to solve problems*.


Mori, a long time ago on TAM was quoted... "Sex is the basic _Currency of the Affair_."

No offense, but, remove any future possibility of Sex from the Affair... And how many OM will keep pursuing?


----------



## Colonel Angus

RWB said:


> No offense, but, remove any future possibility of Sex from the Affair... And how many OM will keep pursuing?


Indeed sir, indeed.



If I overstayed my welcome, just tap me on the head.


----------



## Todi

We talked to a lawyer together last Wednesday. Got an idea of how things might work out. Wife has been consistently begging me for another chance since I asked her for divorce. She told me "I haven't seen you so happy for months", as we were filling out Realtor papers after meeting with a Realtor to sell our house.

I tried to explain how I was happy around our kids, but this isn't what I asked for, or what I wanted when I married her almost 8 years ago. I wasn't happy, but put on a good show. I'm not an emotional person and since this was my decision, of course I wouldn't be showing it as much.. 

I don't know why, but I broke down and told her about the e-mail that was the catalyst for me asking for divorce. Especially since it was from a co-worker that I had never heard of and they were obviously not new acquaintances. She had to "use the bathroom" and I checked her E-mail while she was gone. Almost immediately, she deleted all the e-mails from her work account... Sigh. Trying to remove evidence...

We talked for a bit more and I told her in the sake of honest any any chance of moving forward, I told her that I had been reading her e-mails with the other co-worker all week. Asked her how she envisioned us "Trying to get past all of this." She said she didn't know and hasn't known how to change since the 1st incident 2.5 years ago.... Says the co-worker had been working there for a long time but she didn't feel like she could talk about him since I triggered on that kind of stuff some times...

I'm not sure why, but I agreed to give counseling a chance... If nothing else, I think to remove any doubt that I tried everything possible. We have a meeting with a counselor that was recommended to us by a couple of different sources. Probably a waste of money, but at least he should be a good counselor.

The last several days have been "Oddly" normal... It's refreshing, yet really disturbing. I think we both have had our 1st decent sleep in a week. So at least there's that. =(

Without me asking, and after we talked 3 days ago, she immediately sent an e-mail to the co-worker she had been talking to cutting off their communication and telling him I was aware of it. Said she was 100% committed to our marriage and wanted to work on things. Today is the 1st day I've read through their OLD e-mails since I told her I knew about them... It was horrible and I'm reminded of just how much I feel like this final attempt will be in VAIN... =(

I have no doubt that my wife has a problem... I also have no doubt that I will never trust her 100% again. I have no idea how a counselor could possibly help... I think I'm giving it this last-ditch effort for the following reasons.


The kids. I can't imagine another man being part of their lives. So much so that he is around them more than I am. It scares me to death. I have a history of people I love being placed in questionable situations and almost can't bare to think of my two girls being placed in similar situations, if not absolutely necessary.
I take full responsibility for my downfalls and that at times I have not lived up to my side of the marriage. Her actions are not warranted, but if a counselor could help us both with all the little things... *shrug* Maybe we could figure it out...
To alleviate any regrets or guilt in the future that I didn't try enough before calling it quits.

I appreciate the advice everyone has given me in this thread. In light of my new decision to at least give counseling a TRY... What advice can you offer? Both to go into counseling with the hopes of fixing both of us, and to not waste time and money by not addressing the ultimate issues.

Here are some ideas off the top of my head.


How can I bring up the idea of accountability and the ability for my wife to reassure me that nothing is going on when we're apart. She has already admitted that she connects with guys and her flirty nature makes things progress further than they should. How can counseling help us with this?
How can I bring up and address the issue with her trust-ability and any issues I have developed in trusting her. Ultimately, I think we will needs to determine concrete ways that she can re-build trust consistently for this to work. But I can't even fathom how that might work... =(
I want her to be able to be 100% honest with me and to fix the issues that we have with communication. I'm actually prety open-minded, but she needs to be 110% honest with me and I think we could work through almost anything. We both have issues with conflict avoidance and she can't deal conflist appropriately. (i.e. When we have a difference of opinion, being able to debate, argue and ultimately come to a middle-ground.)

I don't think this has a chance of working, but I'm willing to give it a shot in the short-term. =(

Thoughts? I appreciate you all for reading and commenting.


----------



## Todi

I'm so confused... The line between her seeking help from friendly co-workers and crossing "the line" is so extremely blurred. I have no idea how to progress... We still have 3+ days before our 1st day of counseling and I'm afraid it will be a waste because I have no idea how to approach it.

Divorce is NOT what I want. But it IS what I want if there is no possibility of rebuilding trust and understanding her past actions. I don't get it. I am 100% completely different form her when it comes to dealing with our issues. She seeks counsel form her co-workers and is prone to connecting with guys vs girls. BIG issue! I wouldn't even consider discussing our issues with anyone except for family. =(

I would like to give this last-ditch-effort a chance... Clear my mind of regret... move forward either way it ends up. Just confused as how to do my part... *sigh*

Too much wine tonight trying to figure it out... Sorry if I'm rambling.


----------



## Todi

How do I approach this last-ditch effort...? Am I wasting my time. What could I possibly ask of her to ease my mind enough to function going forward. Am I a fool? She seems remorseful enough and I actually believe her, as hard as it is, that she just doesn't know how to change but ultimately wants to. Has always wanted to...

Accountability is a BIG thing for me. That will need to be addressed. She need to actually take action moving forward. Needs to do SOMETHING to help me get past this. It can't be left up to me... How to I communicate this to both HER and the counselor to help her and US....

I'm at a loss... I can't do it for her...

If this fails, my marriage is over... My kids will only see me 1/3 of the time. Other GUYS will be introduced to their lives... I want this to work but have no idea how it possibly could. =*(


----------



## LongWalk

Do you regret explaining what sparked your decision?

Her erasure of the emails was kind of dumb. Did she think that by clicking delete, there were also delete from your mind?

You copied them didn't you?

Was your wife promiscuous in her teens/early adulthood?

Did she use sex to gain male attention?

What FOO issue are messing her up?

She needs IC.

re: trust
You need to have her phone password and all her other passwords. And even this won't fix things.

re: slept well for the first night in many
Do you mean you had sex and were tired or you were at peace?


----------



## Todi

LongWalk said:


> Do you regret explaining what sparked your decision


No. She responded differently than I thought. She Admitted guild, wanted to work on things. Admitted to not mentioning this guy even though she worked with him for a while. I don't regret explaining it to her. If anything. I felt relieved that she knew... And how she reacted.

I even get it to some degree... I asked her for divorce. She was seeking comfort wherever she could. We obviously have different boundaries and I would have never considered doing that before a divorce was final... How do I approach that in counseling to see if it's something that she can FIX.




LongWalk said:


> Her erasure of the emails was kind of dumb. Did she think that by clicking delete, there were also delete from your mind?
> 
> You copied them didn't you?


The only thing I can think she was thinking was to hide evidence. Consider she didn't know I still had access to her work e-mail...

If there is one thing... It's that I've caught ALL of these things EARLY. Partly because the 1st EA shocked the **** out of me and 1/2 because I'm a software engineer and computers are my thing. Helps that she's computer DUMB.



LongWalk said:


> Was your wife promiscuous in her teens/early adulthood?
> 
> Did she use sex to gain male attention?
> 
> She needs IC.


I have no worry about catching anything that I'm aware of... I have all the necessary SHTI in place. But if that's the "answer", I'm done. I'd much rather fix our issues and have an AMAZING marriage, or I'm done...

I get the feeling she was much more promiscuous than I was. I can see how she feeds off the attention of males rather than females. Especially with co-workers. Ultimately, we have a good marriage and a LOT going for us. However, I WILL leave if there is no FIX for this. =( I mean it when I say "Last-Ditch-Effort" here.

Just want to give this my ALL. So I can move on without regrets....


----------



## Todi

LongWalk said:


> re: slept well for the first night in many
> Do you mean you had sex and were tired or you were at peace?


"At peace".... no.

Slept. Yes... Tired... yes.

Either way. the sleep was welcome. But I get your point. =(


----------



## jsmart

Todi said:


> *I'm so confused... The line between her seeking help from friendly co-workers and crossing "the line" is so extremely blurred.* I have no idea how to progress... We still have 3+ days before our 1st day of counseling and I'm afraid it will be a waste because I have no idea how to approach it.
> 
> Divorce is NOT what I want. But it IS what I want if there is no possibility of rebuilding trust and understanding her past actions. I don't get it. I am 100% completely different form her when it comes to dealing with our issues. She seeks counsel form her co-workers and is prone to connecting with guys vs girls. BIG issue! I wouldn't even consider discussing our issues with anyone except for family. =(
> 
> I would like to give this last-ditch-effort a chance... Clear my mind of regret... move forward either way it ends up. Just confused as how to do my part... *sigh*
> 
> Too much wine tonight trying to figure it out... Sorry if I'm rambling.


Todi, in your quest to R don't rug sweep and down play her actions. 

She was in the beginning stages of EA and they were talking logistics on taking to PA.

1. That NC letter is useless if they work together. She needs a new job ASAP.

2. This thing about having males friends has to STOP. You're the man in life. Both of you need to read Not Just Friends.

3. Access to ALL media. Phones, laptops, tablets, FB, email, ETC.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Is she willing to do the heavy lifting to get you through this....to get both of you through this? 
I mean told transparency.....total acceptance that she has a problem that requires IC? Why is her personality prone to this kind of behavior....and then you need to ask her how can you trust again?


----------



## jsmart

Todi,  Something that we always say around here is that the affair is 100% on the WW/WH but that both parties are responsible for the state of the marriage. 

You appear to be a nice guy. That can cause a woman to 
see you as weak. Woman are repelled by weakness and will subconcouisly be on lookout for a replacement.

I strongly recommend that you get and read MMSL and No More Mister Nice Guy. These 2 books can guide you on the changes you need to make in yourself. 

You can't force changes in your wife. You only can change yourself. But when you make changes in yourself, your wife will usually make reactive changes in herself.
Most times it goes in a positive directions and the marriage strengthens but other times the wife doesn't respond. The beauty of making the changes in yourself is that you become a better man. The type of man that can go back out into the single world and be successful.


----------



## azteca1986

In light of your request, Todi,, here's a couple of things I gleaned from your latest post.


Todi said:


> Asked her how she envisioned us "Trying to get past all of this." S*he said she didn't know and hasn't known how to change* since the 1st incident 2.5 years ago....


This is a tacit admission that the 'problem' lies with her. We all know this. But here *she admits she knows this too.* This is the start point of your counselling going forward.

Why did she do nothing about this, knowing she needs to change?
Why did she, whilst telling you she wanted to keep the marriage, lay down the foundations for yet another EA(/PA?)?



> Says the co-worker had been working there for a long time but she didn't feel like she could talk about him since I triggered on that kind of stuff some times...


And here she swings it back to you. You trigger because she's being shady (again). She hid the relationship from you because it was inappropriate. *People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. *You don't trust her because she is untrustworthy. Your WW is not open or honest. 

I'll give you a little example of openness. My wife's cover photo on Facebook is a picture of the two of us and our son on a picnic blanket. This is her choice of how she wants to portray herself online. Yet even still she gets friend requests from men she doesn't know. She tells me about this. She doesn't have to. What her openness does is reinforce the fact that she open and honest. Her behaviour inspires trust. Your WW's does not. She loves the deception, the secrecy. It gives her a buzz. If it's any comfort (it won't be) this has very little to do with you.



> I'm so confused... The line between her seeking help from friendly co-workers and crossing *"the line" is so extremely blurred.* I have no idea how to progress... We still have 3+ days before our 1st day of counseling and I'm afraid it will be a waste because I have no idea how to approach it.


It isn't. Truly it isn't. Below is a list in descending order of people who you should discuss your relationship problems and/or confide in:

1. Your spouse
2. Close family member/friend - people are friends of the marriage and who have a vested interest in your marriage
3. A professional counsellor
4. A marriage forum like TAM

The line is very clear: DO NOT TALK TO CO-WORKERS ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE. Yet we see it over and over again here. WS choose to confide in opposite sex friends who are going through a rough patch/divorce themselves. They're unable to keep their own marriage on track but suddenly become the go-to person for relationship advice. 

So another thing you should start your counselling with is your WW cannot continue to insult your intelligence. We all know what message you send out if you tell someone of the opposite sex that you're having "marriage problems".

Another thing:


> Without me asking, and after we talked 3 days ago, she immediately sent an e-mail to the co-worker she had been talking to cutting off their communication and *telling him I was aware of it.* Said she was 100% committed to our marriage and wanted to work on things.


This didn't need to be said. It could imply "I'm only doing this because my husband found out" or "We need to find another means to communicate". See? Giving her the benefit of the doubt (unearned) she still hasn't shut this down. Ultimately what use is a No Contact email for two people that work together? Ask her that. Let her come up with some solutions if she's serious about saving your marriage.



> How can I bring up the idea of accountability and the ability for my wife to reassure me that nothing is going on when we're apart. She has already admitted that she connects with guys and her flirty nature makes things progress further than they should. How can counseling help us with this?
> How can I bring up and address the issue with her trust-ability and any issues I have developed in trusting her. Ultimately, I think we will needs to determine concrete ways that she can re-build trust consistently for this to work. But I can't even fathom how that might work... =(
> I want her to be able to be 100% honest with me and to fix the issues that we have with communication. I'm actually prety open-minded, but she needs to be 110% honest with me and I think we could work through almost anything. We both have issues with conflict avoidance and she can't deal conflist appropriately. (i.e. When we have a difference of opinion, being able to debate, argue and ultimately come to a middle-ground.)


1. Boundaries. I've realised that as our marriage has go on, the tighter the boundaries we've accepted. They are mutually agreed between us. There's not one rule for me and another for her. If you both can't agree on mutual standards of behaviour in your marriage, you have to go your separate ways.
2. *You have trust issues because she is untrustworthy. *Do not deviate from this position.
3. Conflict resolution is something your MC can help you with. Later. Right now focus on your WW's need for male attention. She can't be flirty anymore if she wants to keep her marriage. She can't have secret male friends if she wants to keep her marriage.

I totally understand why you want to have one last throw of the dice. Put the ball in your WW court and make her prove she's worthy of a little time.

Best of luck Todi.


----------



## jsmart

azteca1986 said:


> In light of your request, Todi,, here's a couple of things I gleaned from your latest post.
> This is a tacit admission that the 'problem' lies with her. We all know this. But here *she admits she knows this too.* This is the start point of your counselling going forward.
> 
> Why did she do nothing about this, knowing she needs to change?
> Why did she, whilst telling you she wanted to keep the marriage, lay down the foundations for yet another EA(/PA?)?
> 
> And here she swings it back to you. You trigger because she's being shady (again). She hid the relationship from you because it was inappropriate. *People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. *You don't trust her because she is untrustworthy. Your WW is not open or honest.
> 
> *I'll give you a little example of openness. My wife's cover photo on Facebook is a picture of the two of us and our son on a picnic blanket. This is her choice of how she wants to portray herself online. Yet even still she gets friend requests from men she doesn't know. She tells me about this. She doesn't have to. What her openness does is reinforce the fact that she open and honest. Her behaviour inspires trust.* Your WW's does not. She loves the deception, the secrecy. It gives her a buzz. If it's any comfort (it won't be) this has very little to do with you.
> 
> It isn't. Truly it isn't. Below is a list in descending order of people who you should discuss your relationship problems and/or confide in:
> 
> 1. Your spouse
> 2. Close family member/friend - people are friends of the marriage and who have a vested interest in your marriage
> 3. A professional counsellor
> 4. A marriage forum like TAM
> 
> The line is very clear: DO NOT TALK TO CO-WORKERS ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE. Yet we see it over and over again here. WS choose to confide in opposite sex friends who are going through a rough patch/divorce themselves. They're unable to keep their own marriage on track but suddenly become the go-to person for relationship advice.
> 
> So another thing you should start your counselling with is your WW cannot continue to insult your intelligence. We all know what message you send out if you tell someone of the opposite sex that you're having "marriage problems".
> 
> Another thing:
> This didn't need to be said. It could imply "I'm only doing this because my husband found out" or "We need to find another means to communicate". See? Giving her the benefit of the doubt (unearned) she still hasn't shut this down. Ultimately what use is a No Contact email for two people that work together? Ask her that. Let her come up with some solutions if she's serious about saving your marriage.
> 
> 1. Boundaries. I've realised that as our marriage has go on, the tighter the boundaries we've accepted. They are mutually agreed between us. There's not one rule for me and another for her. If you both can't agree on mutual standards of behaviour in your marriage, you have to go your separate ways.
> 2. *You have trust issues because she is untrustworthy. *Do not deviate from this position.
> 3. Conflict resolution is something your MC can help you with. Later. Right now focus on your WW's need for male attention. She can't be flirty anymore if she wants to keep her marriage. She can't have secret male friends if she wants to keep her marriage.
> 
> I totally understand why you want to have one last throw of the dice. Put the ball in your WW court and make her prove she's worthy of a little time.
> 
> Best of luck Todi.


I love that example of your wife's FB. It sends out the I'm happily married vibe. Which reduces the amount of guys fishing.

I think OP wants to R to strongly that he's in danger of rug sweeping and down playing his wife's recent behavior. I don't think he fully comprehends that his wife was days from a full blown PA. 

I'm not a fan of marriage counseling. To many times it turns into a cover for the WW. In the counselor's quest to appear even handed, they lift BH's faults to high levels and sometimes run interference for the WW. The counselor has to be one that is experienced with dealing with infidelity guiding toward a successful R.


----------



## turnera

First, if she's not a serial cheater, then understand that some women get into things like this because they want a connection, that they feel they're not getting from you. He paid attention, admired, flirted, and it made her feel good. So take a hard look at what YOU were providing her - or not.

Second, most men who come here would kill to have a wife wanting to make things work and beg for a second chance. But they don't get it. She contacted him, on her own, to stop it. That's huge.

Third, you have kids.

Fourth, you're in control here. You can set your rules and just sit back and see what she does. They should include her in individual therapy that you can verify, you two in marriage counseling so you learn to tell each other everything safely (since you say you're not overly emotional, you have your own work to do, to learn to connect with her) and find solutions that work for both of you. Her giving you 100% transparency without fighting it. Her no longer being in situations that will worry you. A polygraph, if you want it. A postnup, if you want it. Spending 15 hours a week together improving your bond (away from kids/chores/work). Communicating a LOT.

Do all this and I have high hopes for your marriage.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> First, if she's not a serial cheater, then understand that some women get into things like this because they want a connection, that they feel they're not getting from you. He paid attention, admired, flirted, and it made her feel good. So take a hard look at what YOU were providing her - or not.
> 
> Second, most men who come here would kill to have a wife wanting to make things work and beg for a second chance. But they don't get it. She contacted him, on her own, to stop it. That's huge.
> 
> Third, you have kids.


:iagree:

You both need the counseling. You both need to be transparent. You need to learn what each other's needs are, and how to meet them.

You could just divorce, and then date while in counseling. It would be a fresh start, and neither of you would be obligated to continue if you no longer felt inspired.

To make this work, you both need to feel satisfied, not just one of you.


----------



## azteca1986

jsmart said:


> I love that example of your wife's FB. It sends out the I'm happily married vibe. Which reduces the amount of guys fishing.


And yet they still keep fishing. They're like vampires; they have to be invited in. As one long forgotten genius on TAM once said "No matter how unattractive your wife may be, there's always some clown out there that wants to sleep with her". It's a fact of married life, sadly. 


> I think OP wants to R to strongly that he's in danger of rug sweeping and down playing his wife's recent behavior. I don't think he fully comprehends that his wife was days from a full blown PA.


She's used the fact OP wants to keep his family together to threaten her marriage. Divorce is on the table. WW has to follow through on fighting for the marriage or OP will follow though with the D. 


> I'm not a fan of marriage counseling. To many times it turns into a cover for the WW. In the counselor's quest to appear even handed, they lift BH's faults to high levels and sometimes run interference for the WW. The counselor has to be one that is experienced with dealing with infidelity guiding toward a successful R.


Not a fan myself, but I think it's worth a shot in this case. My mentor had a good suggestion for keeping a meeting focussed and not wasting everyone's time. "The purpose of this meeting is..."

I suggest OP tells the counsellor that the purpose of MC is to discuss WW previous affairs, boundaries and how WW needs to change her behaviour to avoid a divorce. The state of the marriage can wait.


----------



## soccermom2three

I think your wife needs IC to figure out why she falls back to such destructive behaviors instead of handling her unhappiness and insecurities more constructively.


----------



## Nucking Futs

You can't possibly have read this thread before commenting. Either that or you're confusing it with another thread.



turnera said:


> First, *if she's not a serial cheater,*
> 
> She is.
> 
> then understand that some women get into things like this because they want a connection, that they feel they're not getting from you. He paid attention, admired, flirted, and it made her feel good. So take a hard look at what YOU were providing her - or not.
> 
> Second, most men who come here would kill to have a wife wanting to make things work and beg for a second chance. But they don't get it. She contacted him, on her own, to stop it. That's huge.
> 
> No, it's not huge. She contacted him, on her own, after she was told her husband was divorcing her, to set up an opportunity to take it physical. She then sent the NC text *only after* finding out that her husband was aware she was pursuing this guy.
> 
> Third, you have kids.
> 
> And the destruction of the family is 100% on the cheating wife.
> 
> Fourth, you're in control here. You can set your rules and just sit back and see what she does. They should include her in individual therapy that you can verify, you two in marriage counseling so you learn to tell each other everything safely (since you say you're not overly emotional, you have your own work to do, to learn to connect with her) and find solutions that work for both of you. Her giving you 100% transparency without fighting it. Her no longer being in situations that will worry you. A polygraph, if you want it. A postnup, if you want it. Spending 15 hours a week together improving your bond (away from kids/chores/work). Communicating a LOT.
> 
> Do all this and I have high hopes for your marriage.


I have no hope for this marriage. She's a serial cheater that continued to actively pursue a relationship with another man while faking sincerity to her husband in an effort to keep the cake supply flowing. This is not a candidate for successful reconciliation. If Todi doesn't divorce her, the best he can hope for is either an open marriage or pretending he doesn't know about his wifes affairs while he prays she doesn't give him an std.

Todi, you don't trust her because you _know_, not think but _know_, that she is untrustworthy. You've caught her too many times to be deluding yourself that you might be able to trust her. You have abundant proof that she cannot be trusted.


----------



## azteca1986

Nucking Futs said:


> Todi, you don't trust her because you _know_, not think but _know_, that she is untrustworthy. You've caught her too many times to be deluding yourself that you might be able to trust her. You have abundant proof that she cannot be trusted.


NF, as you well know, I agree with a lot of what you post on TAM. I agree with you now. But... if we are to comply with OP's request, what would you suggest on how he should approach MC sessions?

I can empathise with a father that has to cough up 2/3 of his time with his children through no fault of his own.

For me:
1. OP's "trust issues" are entirely because his WW is untrustworthy. He has to hold this position. If the MC tries to a) shift blame b) insists on talking about the 'wider issues in the marriage', they need a new MC. And WW should be the one to find one
2. OP has to be cognisant of "blame shifting" and "gas lighting". His WW will try these methods to minimise her actions. This is to be expected as she still has wayward thinking.
3. OP needs to lose his fear of having another man move in and take his place. Plenty of men can _try_ and 'play dad'. Our children have only one father. *We are utterly irreplaceable. * I suggest OP reads a few threads from fathers who were put in a position of having their children taken from them. Reading them put me utterly to shame as a 'full-time dad'. They gave their children quality time and attention. Our children will never forget this.

A couple of hours of MC is not too much to commit to, to final answer in his own head whether he truly gave it everything.

Nucking Futs, or anyone else, what do we suggest he looks for from MC, his WW, anything else?


----------



## Nucking Futs

azteca1986 said:


> NF, as you well know, I agree with a lot of what you post on TAM. I agree with you now. But... if we are to comply with OP's request, what would you suggest on how he should approach MC sessions?
> 
> I can empathise with a father that has to cough up 2/3 of his time with his children through no fault of his own.
> 
> For me:
> 1. OP's "trust issues" are entirely because his WW is untrustworthy. He has to hold this position. If the MC tries to a) shift blame b) insists on talking about the 'wider issues in the marriage', they need a new MC. And WW should be the one to find one
> 2. OP has to be cognisant of "blame shifting" and "gas lighting". His WW will try these methods to minimise her actions. This is to be expected as she still has wayward thinking.
> 3. OP needs to lose his fear of having another man move in and take his place. Plenty of men can _try_ and 'play dad'. Our children have only one father. *We are utterly irreplaceable. * I suggest OP reads a few threads from fathers who were put in a position of having their children taken from them. Reading them put me utterly to shame as a 'full-time dad'. They gave their children quality time and attention. Our children will never forget this.
> 
> A couple of hours of MC is not too much to commit to, to final answer in his own head whether he truly gave it everything.
> 
> Nucking Futs, or anyone else, what do we suggest he looks for from MC, his WW, anything else?


Frankly I wouldn't waste my time. I know I've posted in the past about trying to help the poster with his/her desire but sometimes I just can't bring myself to give someone advice that I'm sure is not going to be helpful. I usually refrain from posting on those threads but sometimes I just have to say something.

I like your advice here except for the part in red. There are too many crap marriage counselors out there to let an unrepentant wayward chose, you'll end up going through every mc in town that will help her rugsweep. If op's going to waste his time and money on counseling he should at least make sure he's not paying someone to tell him to rugsweep.


----------



## turnera

Nucking Futs said:


> You can't possibly have read this thread before commenting. Either that or you're confusing it with another thread.


She had one EA, which she stopped, and then she contacted an old guy to 'catch up.' He says he didn't see any indication she was doing more than that. The second one barely went far enough to be called an affair.

I'm not excusing her but I'm not ready to call her a serial cheater, either.


----------



## Decorum

Todi said:


> I even get it to some degree... I asked her for divorce. She was seeking comfort wherever she could.
> 
> How do I approach that in counseling to see if it's something that she can FIX.
> 
> 
> The only thing I can think she was thinking was to hide evidence.
> 
> However, I WILL leave if there is no FIX for this. =( I mean it when I say "Last-Ditch-Effort" here.
> 
> Just want to give this my ALL. So I can move on without regrets....







Todi said:


> How do I approach this last-ditch effort...? Am I wasting my time. What could I possibly ask of her to ease my mind enough to function going forward. Am I a fool?
> 
> Accountability is a BIG thing for me.
> 
> That will need to be addressed.
> 
> She need to actually take action moving forward. Needs to do SOMETHING to help me get past this.
> 
> It can't be left up to me... How to I communicate this to both HER and the counselor to help her and US....
> 
> I'm at a loss... I can't do it for her...
> 
> (


You are asking all the right questions, and showing the proper determination to make this work, ...*that is if you were the wayward spouse*.

Unless she is doing this on her own in a long term and sustained way it will be a false reconciliation.

Your best option in that case will be to suck it up and endure the hellish limbo until the girls are old enough and move on.

She may be genuinely remorseful but still unable to dedicate the required time and energy to fix this.




soccermom2three said:


> I think your wife needs IC to figure out why she falls back to such destructive behaviors instead of handling her unhappiness and insecurities more constructively.


Think about it, your wife should be all over this if she is serious, but will you have to suggest it and use the current threat of divorce to make it begin?

If the situation were reversed what would you be doing?
That's what she should be doing. 

I have heard it before, "My wife does not know how to address her problems she needs to be guided" yeah that is part of the problem isn't it. Maybe a big part.

So she has a new willingness to be guided, will it last?

The problem with character flaws it that ...well ...they are part of your character.


What do you need to see to be relatively sure that this last ditch effort will likely succeed?

and BTW marriage counseling may be helpful to smooth some of the bumps in the process, but it CANNOT address the issues she has to face, it will take a dedication to work on herself and get IC, and some length of time to be successful.

And I know you don't think you are but please stop making excuses for her in your thinking.

I do wish you well.
Take care!


----------



## Decorum

Todi said:


> Am I a fool?
> 
> She seems remorseful enough and I actually believe her, as hard as it is, that she just doesn't know how to change but ultimately wants to.


I wanted to put this in here separately.

For a relationship to exist both persons must bridge the gap between them. You are a fool if you agree to bridge the gap over an unsustainable distance, for and unrealistic period of time.

She must invest a corresponding effort in a normal relationship and now all the more so.

Think about it.

Take care!


----------



## Mr Blunt

Because you had “downfalls” in your marriage the counseling may help with that. In addition, as you stated, maybe the counseling will help with any regret or guilt that you may have in the future

*I would do everything that I could if I were you so that you get as much custody of your children as possible*. In my case I got FULL control of my daughter but not my sons.

Your wife has some real serious problems and I feel sorry for her but I think that you have about a 20% chance of a MEDIOCRE marriage and a 1% chance of an” AMAZING” marriage even if the counseling is helpful. If you stay with her I think you have a 95% chance of a very painful life.

*You can always divorce and date. That way you can find out how much she will improve*. I made my wife prove her words with ACTIONS for over 4 years before I remarried her but she did not have as many problems that your wife has.

You will have to use your logic more than your emotions right now as your emotions are not reliable.


----------



## alte Dame

Her thinking and boundaries are simply 'off.' They are not healthy. When you report her logic to us, it makes my head burn a bit. It's like she's saying:

'Todi didn't like my having an affair with another man, so I will do everything I can to keep him shielded from my extracurricular fun. It doesn't occur to me to stop the fun & I don't want him to be hurt, so I'll keep it on the down-low. He should understand that I'm trying my best not to expose him to more upset.'

Either she's being disingenuous or she really thinks that she was being considerate in sparing your feelings as she flirted (and possibly more) with other men.

(I knew a girl in college who, when the police came to arrest her for stealing a fur coat, wailed, 'You don't understand! I didn't *steal* it! I *took* it!' I'm not a thief!.' Your WW's rationales are equally mind-bending, in my opinion.)

I think your misgivings about agreeing to counseling are well-founded. She's a serial cheat who operates in a different moral universe.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I would suggest an approach during your counseling sessions that will allow the therapist to see the primary underlying issue here which is her behavior and your subsequent lack of trust. If the counselor tries to address marital issues and forms a basis of acceptance of your wife's behavior based on YOUR shortcomings I would simply not allow it. As an example, if the counselor said that your wife needed this male interaction because of your lack of attention and this drove her to do what she did I would simply acknowledge that you understand the premise but that you do not accept it. Additionally, I would emphasize that any "wrong behavior" on your part you are willing to address and work on but only AFTER the primary issue of your wife's is explored, acknowledged and dealt with.

Let the therapist know, in no uncertain terms that, all other issues of the marriage notwithstanding, if your wife cannot change the way she deals with and handles issues then there is simply nothing left to "work on" from your end. Make sure that they understand your position clearly. If your wife is truly genuine in her desire to "fix" this then she will support you and agree that her issues are first to be dealt with and then the marriage as a whole can be scrutinized. If, however, at the counselor's suggesting your "flaws" as a driving factor in her behavior, she jumps at the chance to shift as much blame over to you as possible then I am afraid you have a clear indicator of her true intent. Again, if your wife is sincere she will disallow any efforts by the counselor to shift blame and responsibility for her actions onto you. If she does not and even agrees with their implication then.....you have your answer.

I admire you for going as far as you have as I know the difficulty involved in doing so but I also realize, despite any remarks from you to the contrary, that you still care very deeply for this woman and the sanctity of your family which I also find commendable. Having stated that, I offer another option to which you or someone else has already eluded in a previous post. If the thought of another man around your girls is as disconcerting as you posted, you could decide to ride it out for their sake. Sacrificing your happiness for theirs is not unheard of nor as uncommon as some may believe. There are some here that will find that suggestion completely unpalatable but they may not have your deep feelings regarding the demise of your family and the importance of your children to you. It would most likely be a difficult few years but only you can decide if it would be worth it. And there is a chance, albeit almost non existent, that your wife would see your sacrifice and actually learn and grow from your example and become a better person. I do not envy you your life currently and your decisions will be difficult but you seem the type to decide and dedicate yourself to your decision. I wish you every good fortune.


----------



## jsmart

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I would suggest an approach during your counseling sessions that will allow the therapist to see the primary underlying issue here which is her behavior and your subsequent lack of trust. If the counselor tries to address marital issues and forms a basis of acceptance of your wife's behavior based on YOUR shortcomings I would simply not allow it. As an example, if the counselor said that your wife needed this male interaction because of your lack of attention and this drove her to do what she did I would simply acknowledge that you understand the premise but that you do not accept it. Additionally, I would emphasize that any "wrong behavior" on your part you are willing to address and work on but only AFTER the primary issue of your wife's is explored, acknowledged and dealt with.
> 
> *Let the therapist know, in no uncertain terms that, all other issues of the marriage notwithstanding, if your wife cannot change the way she deals with and handles issues then there is simply nothing left to "work on" from your end. Make sure that they understand your position clearly. If your wife is truly genuine in her desire to "fix" this then she will support you and agree that her issues are first to be dealt with and then the marriage as a whole can be scrutinized. If, however, at the counselor's suggesting your "flaws" as a driving factor in her behavior, she jumps at the chance to shift as much blame over to you as possible then I am afraid you have a clear indicator of her true intent. Again, if your wife is sincere she will disallow any efforts by the counselor to shift blame and responsibility for her actions onto you. If she does not and even agrees with their implication then.....you have your answer.*
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> I admire you for going as far as you have as I know the difficulty involved in doing so but I also realize, despite any remarks from you to the contrary, that you still care very deeply for this woman and the sanctity of your family which I also find commendable. Having stated that, I offer another option to which you or someone else has already eluded in a previous post. If the thought of another man around your girls is as disconcerting as you posted, you could decide to ride it out for their sake. Sacrificing your happiness for theirs is not unheard of nor as uncommon as some may believe. There are some here that will find that suggestion completely unpalatable but they may not have your deep feelings regarding the demise of your family and the importance of your children to you. It would most likely be a difficult few years but only you can decide if it would be worth it. And there is a chance, albeit almost non existent, that your wife would see your sacrifice and actually learn and grow from your example and become a better person. I do not envy you your life currently and your decisions will be difficult but you seem the type to decide and dedicate yourself to your decision. I wish you every good fortune.



I've read of too many counselor's pulling exactly that. It turns in to a BH bashing and WW defense and downplaying.

You're paying for the help, make sure it's actually help.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

From OP's post 126



Todi said:


> _It's also a bit ironic that I was having a really good day last week before asking for D, thinking we could work on things... Then I casually noticed the E-mail from this OM. *"Hey, Here's my phone number just in case..."* This guy was the final straw for me and Ended our marriage and she has no idea.
> 
> Even last night and this morning, she was telling me that this isn't what she wants and was trying to convince me to stay and work on things. All the while keeping this guy warm Just In Case..._


After he told her he wanted a D, she cries, pleads and begs for another chance - ALL THE WHILE, she's continued carrying on an EA with her current OM. Even got as far as talking about meeting somewhere...


From OP's post 152



Todi said:


> _I don't know why, but I broke down and told her about the e-mail that was the catalyst for me asking for divorce. Especially since it was from a co-worker that I had never heard of and they were obviously not new acquaintances. _*She had to "use the bathroom" and I checked her E-mail while she was gone. Almost immediately, she deleted all the e-mails from her work account... Sigh. Trying to remove evidence...*
> 
> We talked for a bit more and I told her in the sake of honest any any chance of moving forward, I told her that I had been reading her e-mails with the other co-worker all week. Asked her how she envisioned us "Trying to get past all of this." *She said she didn't know and hasn't known how to change since the 1st incident 2.5 years ago.... Says the co-worker had been working there for a long time but she didn't feel like she could talk about him since I triggered on that kind of stuff some times...*


She outright tells him that she knew he would trigger, so she didn't tell him about the OM! She KNEW it was WRONG. She's DONE THIS TO HIM BEFORE. She gets caught and her defense is it would have triggered him...

She's not done cheating. Not by a long shot. Now that she knows she can't email/text this OM via the "normal" channels, you can bet your last dollar that she only contacts this guy at/through work, or gets a burner phone. It's not an if, it's a when. 

From OP's post 156



Todi said:


> _No. She responded differently than I thought. She Admitted guilt, wanted to work on things. Admitted to not mentioning this guy even though she worked with him for a while. I don't regret explaining it to her. If anything. I felt relieved that she knew... And how she reacted.
> 
> I even get it to some degree... I asked her for divorce. _*She was seeking comfort wherever she could. We obviously have different boundaries and I would have never considered doing that before a divorce was final...*_ How do I approach that in counseling to see if it's something that she can FIX._
> 
> _The only thing I can think _*she was thinking was to hide evidence.* _Consider she didn't know I still had access to her work e-mail..._


She had an EA 2.5 years ago. He caught her. She stopped.

She was having an EA recently. He caught her. He eventually tells her that he can't get over the trust issues and want's a D. She CONTINUES to have and EA, WHILE trying to get the OP to give her one last chance.

She can claim that she had no one else to talk to about it, but her Husband wants to D her because she had inappropriate relationships with other men - Then she continues to have one while trying to convince the OP to attempt R with her.

I see a lot of misery in store for this poor guy. The longer he stays, the more miserable it will get. You can only play warden for so long before you come to the realization, it's just not worth it anymore.

As the sting from getting caught this time fades and becomes a waning memory, I can envision her having another EA. But she'll be much harder to catch this time.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You may have flaws, but she screwed up three times with this guy alone:
She makes contact.
She told him about the divorce while passively asking him for a beer.
She deletes all coworker emails, telling a lie, in the middle of a serious discussion about your marriage.
She basically tells him no contact in this fashion.

Sorry, this is/was an EA in my book.

Good luck and be prepared for blame shifting and minimization in the counseling session. It has already started in this thread so, be prepared to withstand the onslaught on your character.


----------



## workindad

jsmart said:


> I've read of too many counselor's pulling exactly that. It turns in to a BH bashing and WW defense and downplaying.
> 
> You're paying for the help, make sure it's actually help.


:iagree::iagree:

Remember counselors can be "fired". Do not tolerate a counselor that makes the wayward the victim and blame shifts decisions made by a wayward.


----------



## jsmart

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You may have flaws, but she screwed up three times with this guy alone:
> She makes contact.
> She told him about the divorce while passively asking him for a beer.
> She deletes all coworker emails, telling a lie, in the middle of a serious discussion about your marriage.
> She basically tells him no contact in this fashion.
> 
> Sorry, this is/was an EA in my book.
> 
> Good luck and be prepared for blame shifting and minimization in the counseling session. It has already started in this thread so, be prepared to withstand the onslaught on your character.


The fact that she was still talking and planning on meeting in the midst of the D talk, leads me to believe that she will lay low for a short time but she may not even wait that short time and just use work email or a burner phn. The NC letter doesn't mean jack when they work together. 

She was going PA with this guy within days. That desire isn't going to disappear over night.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jsmart said:


> That desire isn't going to disappear over night.


I know. Dude breaks down, tells her what caused the divorce and she gets up and deletes the emails. I'm going to leave this here:


> *I broke down and told her about the e-mail that was the catalyst for me asking for divorce.*
> *She had to "use the bathroom"* and I checked her E-mail while she was gone. *Almost immediately, she deleted all the e-mails from her work account*... Sigh. Trying to remove evidence...


I'm going to move on so, I don't detract from his newest venture into reconciliation.


----------



## Todi

Thanks for all the replies. Last night was rough for me and I had quite a bit of wine when I started posting asking for help. I really do appreciate the people on TAM that take the time to respond.



azteca1986 said:


> 1. Boundaries. I've realised that as our marriage has go on, the tighter the boundaries we've accepted. They are mutually agreed between us. There's not one rule for me and another for her. If you both can't agree on mutual standards of behaviour in your marriage, you have to go your separate ways.
> 2. You have trust issues because she is untrustworthy. Do not deviate from this position.
> 3. Conflict resolution is something your MC can help you with. Later. Right now focus on your WW's need for male attention. She can't be flirty anymore if she wants to keep her marriage. She can't have secret male friends if she wants to keep her marriage.
> 
> I totally understand why you want to have one last throw of the dice. Put the ball in your WW court and make her prove she's worthy of a little time.


Thank you. This is what I was asking for and trying to figure out.

My goal with this last-ditch-effort at counseling is to give my WW, with the assistance of our counselor, the chance to figure out how to do ALL the things she is going to need to do to possibly have a chance at re-building my trust. I will not let the counselor or my WW deviate from this goal! All the other issues are secondary...

Within a session or two... If I don't get the feeling that things are moving in the right direction, or that the counselor is trying to deviate from the above stated goal. I think I'm OUT and the D will continue.



jsmart said:


> I think OP wants to R to strongly that he's in danger of rug sweeping and down playing his wife's recent behavior. I don't think he fully comprehends that his wife was days from a full blown PA.
> 
> I'm not a fan of marriage counseling. To many times it turns into a cover for the WW. In the counselor's quest to appear even handed, they lift BH's faults to high levels and sometimes run interference for the WW. The counselor has to be one that is experienced with dealing with infidelity guiding toward a successful R.


Luckily I have TAM. I think I will be much better prepared to approach counseling with a very clear goal at this point. There will be no more rug sweeping on my part and the counselor will know exactly where I stand. How he decides to handle the situation will probably determine the outcome of my marriage. Either my wife will "figure it out" with his help, or this will be a very short and expensive speed bump on the way towards our D.



azteca1986 said:


> Not a fan myself, but I think it's worth a shot in this case. My mentor had a good suggestion for keeping a meeting focussed and not wasting everyone's time. "The purpose of this meeting is..."
> 
> I suggest OP tells the counsellor that the purpose of MC is to discuss WW previous affairs, boundaries and how WW needs to change her behaviour to avoid a divorce. The state of the marriage can wait.


Good idea. I will be prepared with a well thought out statement about my purpose for agreeing to try counseling. And will fight anything that tries to deviate us from that purpose.



azteca1986 said:


> I can empathise with a father that has to cough up 2/3 of his time with his children through no fault of his own.
> 
> For me:
> 1. OP's "trust issues" are entirely because his WW is untrustworthy. He has to hold this position. If the MC tries to a) shift blame b) insists on talking about the 'wider issues in the marriage', they need a new MC. And WW should be the one to find one
> 2. OP has to be cognisant of "blame shifting" and "gas lighting". His WW will try these methods to minimise her actions. This is to be expected as she still has wayward thinking.
> 3. OP needs to lose his fear of having another man move in and take his place. Plenty of men can _try_ and 'play dad'. Our children have only one father. *We are utterly irreplaceable. * I suggest OP reads a few threads from fathers who were put in a position of having their children taken from them. Reading them put me utterly to shame as a 'full-time dad'. They gave their children quality time and attention. Our children will never forget this.
> 
> A couple of hours of MC is not too much to commit to, to final answer in his own head whether he truly gave it everything.


Thanks for the suggestions on what to focus on. It will help me get the most out of this last effort if I can stay focused.

I don't really fear that I will be "replaced." I think I'm a pretty amazing Dad. I'm more afraid of my kids being put into dangerous or questionable situations being around someone that isn't as vested in their well being. =/



Nucking Futs said:


> Frankly I wouldn't waste my time. I know I've posted in the past about trying to help the poster with his/her desire but sometimes I just can't bring myself to give someone advice that I'm sure is not going to be helpful. I usually refrain from posting on those threads but sometimes I just have to say something.


I also give this a slim chance of working out. If this counselor can somehow give my wife the tools to do what NEEDS to be done on her side to help rebuild trust in our marriage. There is at least a chance. I truly believe she is willing but doesn't know WTF to do. So who knows. At least it will be one last things for me to regret not having tried if we reach D.



turnera said:


> She had one EA, which she stopped, and then she contacted an old guy to 'catch up.' He says he didn't see any indication she was doing more than that. The second one barely went far enough to be called an affair.
> 
> I'm not excusing her but I'm not ready to call her a serial cheater, either.


She also did admit to cheating in the final hour of her previous marriage. She has a HUGE problem to be sure and there is no excuse for her actions. Hopefully this counselor can offer insight as to why she does these things and she can do the heavy lifting required to move in the right direction... If not, I fear there is no help for us.


----------



## Todi

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I would suggest an approach during your counseling sessions that will allow the therapist to see the primary underlying issue here which is her behavior and your subsequent lack of trust. If the counselor tries to address marital issues and forms a basis of acceptance of your wife's behavior based on YOUR shortcomings I would simply not allow it. As an example, if the counselor said that your wife needed this male interaction because of your lack of attention and this drove her to do what she did I would simply acknowledge that you understand the premise but that you do not accept it. Additionally, I would emphasize that any "wrong behavior" on your part you are willing to address and work on but only AFTER the primary issue of your wife's is explored, acknowledged and dealt with.
> 
> Let the therapist know, in no uncertain terms that, all other issues of the marriage notwithstanding, if your wife cannot change the way she deals with and handles issues then there is simply nothing left to "work on" from your end. Make sure that they understand your position clearly. If your wife is truly genuine in her desire to "fix" this then she will support you and agree that her issues are first to be dealt with and then the marriage as a whole can be scrutinized. If, however, at the counselor's suggesting your "flaws" as a driving factor in her behavior, she jumps at the chance to shift as much blame over to you as possible then I am afraid you have a clear indicator of her true intent. Again, if your wife is sincere she will disallow any efforts by the counselor to shift blame and responsibility for her actions onto you. If she does not and even agrees with their implication then.....you have your answer.
> 
> I admire you for going as far as you have as I know the difficulty involved in doing so but I also realize, despite any remarks from you to the contrary, that you still care very deeply for this woman and the sanctity of your family which I also find commendable. Having stated that, I offer another option to which you or someone else has already eluded in a previous post. If the thought of another man around your girls is as disconcerting as you posted, you could decide to ride it out for their sake. Sacrificing your happiness for theirs is not unheard of nor as uncommon as some may believe. There are some here that will find that suggestion completely unpalatable but they may not have your deep feelings regarding the demise of your family and the importance of your children to you. It would most likely be a difficult few years but only you can decide if it would be worth it. And there is a chance, albeit almost non existent, that your wife would see your sacrifice and actually learn and grow from your example and become a better person. I do not envy you your life currently and your decisions will be difficult but you seem the type to decide and dedicate yourself to your decision. I wish you every good fortune.


Thanks for posting. It cover everything I was asking for and has helped me prepare for this counseling session on Wednesday.

I also appreciate your insights into staying just for the children. I don't think I have it in me to sacrifice my life/happiness completely for my children. While I would still worry about not being around them as much after D, I think the time we would have together would be of much higher quality if I was happy rather than miserable.

I also fear the example I would be setting for them in their own future relationships. If they were to find out eventually what happened and that Dad just stuck it out miserably, they might conclude that it's acceptable behavior or that the consequences aren't as severe as they should be.


----------



## Suspecting2014

IMO in order to regain your trust you can ask her for a Poly test.
This is not meant to verify if she had a PA anytime in the past, as you believe she didn’t, but to point out how Big Deal is for you her deleting text and hiding relation with coworkers.

In a few words to bring some consequences to her actions to make her get the full magnitude of her betrayal.

I believe she just doesn’t get it, and this may help her to understand.


----------



## Ntsikzo

Todd, I think you just need to end the marriage and move on. Then you can concentrate on fixing your trust issues. I don't think the you will ever trust her.

As far as the kids are concerned, I think the D may be a better option. Having grown up in a love-less marriage myself, I can assure you that raising kids in a place with lots of fighting and tension is not the way. Your kids will probably be better off with two separated, but loving parents.
Good luck whichever way you decide.


----------



## azteca1986

Todi said:


> My goal with this last-ditch-effort at counseling is to give my WW, with the assistance of our counselor, the chance to *figure out how to do ALL the things she is going to need to do to possibly have a chance at re-building my trust.* I will not let the counselor or my WW deviate from this goal! All the other issues are secondary...
> 
> Within a session or two... If I don't get the feeling that things are moving in the right direction, or that the counselor is trying to deviate from the above stated goal. I think I'm OUT and the D will continue.


Your "trust issues" are a symptom of your WW's behaviour. The big picture is that she has repeatedly behaved as an unfaithful wife. That is what has to change. If she is told explicitly how a faithful committed wife behaves (and I suspect she doesn't actually know or realise), then all her attendant behaviours like; secrecy, talking to men about her relationship, hiding relationships, will go away too. And in time you will trust her.

I know that universally most posters (including yourself) think the chances of a turn around are slim, the tiny sliver of hope I have is because this is the first time she faced a true consequence. She's looking twice divorced square in the face. So, it's worth a shot. With the clock ticking.


Todi said:


> I don't think I have it in me to sacrifice my life/happiness completely for my children. While I would still worry about not being around them as much after D, I think the time we would have together would be of much higher quality if I was happy rather than miserable.
> 
> I also fear the example I would be setting for them in their own future relationships. If they were to find out eventually what happened and that Dad just stuck it out miserably, they might conclude that it's acceptable behavior or that the consequences aren't as severe as they should be.


This is all very healthy. Thanks for clarifying. I think this is also worthy of your explanation of the situation to both the MC and your WW. You have mentally crossed the rubicon from "I must stay married for the sake of my kids" to "I must get divorced for the sake of my kids". There's no clearer indication that the marriage is untenable in it's present state. And that there is literally nothing that will keep you in the marriage except an immediate acceptance of the situation on your wife's part and an obvious commitment to change.


----------



## bfree

Todi, I'm simply going to echo all the advice you've received regarding reconciliation and MC. We've seen all too often how a MC helps the WS rugsweep the affair and your shortcomings become the focal point of the sessions. By stating up front that any attempt to derail the process of working on your primary issues will result in the end of the marriage and subsequently the end of their payments you will have a much better chance of keeping things on track. If you believe your wife is truly serious about changing her behavior may I suggest you have her read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She very effectively explains how weak boundaries can be devastating to any long term relationship. If she's on the up and up about repairing the damage she'll read the book immediately.


----------



## Todi

bfree said:


> If you believe your wife is truly serious about changing her behavior may I suggest you have her read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She very effectively explains how weak boundaries can be devastating to any long term relationship. If she's on the up and up about repairing the damage she'll read the book immediately.


I've heard this book mentioned a few times. I will most definitely have her read it.

I also have No More Mr.Nice Guy that I will be reading. I've had it a while now, but haven't gotten around to reading it.


----------



## Hicks

Todi said:


> How can I bring up the idea of accountability and the ability for my wife to reassure me that nothing is going on when we're apart. She has already admitted that she connects with guys and her flirty nature makes things progress further than they should. How can counseling help us with this?
> 
> *Counseling can help you to understand and accept the person you are married to, and the reasons for making that choice.*
> 
> How can I bring up and address the issue with her trust-ability and any issues I have developed in trusting her. Ultimately, I think we will needs to determine concrete ways that she can re-build trust consistently for this to work. But I can't even fathom how that might work... =(
> 
> *It's more about you making the choice to stay in the marriage knowing that you give up the ability to trust her.*
> 
> 
> I want her to be able to be 100% honest with me and to fix the issues that we have with communication. I'm actually prety open-minded, but she needs to be 110% honest with me and I think we could work through almost anything. We both have issues with conflict avoidance and she can't deal conflist appropriately. (i.e. When we have a difference of opinion, being able to debate, argue and ultimately come to a middle-ground.)
> 
> 
> *Investigate in counseling whether her cheating is based on you not meeting her needs in some way, versus whether her personality is defective. *
> 
> I don't think this has a chance of working, but I'm willing to give it a shot in the short-term. =(
> 
> *It can work if you are willing to accept who you are married to, and the difference between what she can be and what your vision for a wife is.*
> 
> Thoughts? I appreciate you all for reading and commenting.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear Todi,

This post of yours tells us everything we need to know about you -- how you came to be in this situation, why you can't figure out what to do about it and, perhaps most importantly, why is it is likely that things will get worse for you before they get better. Consider:



Todi said:


> Thanks for all the replies. Last night was rough for me and I had quite a bit of wine when I started posting asking for help. I really do appreciate the people on TAM that take the time to respond.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. This is what I was asking for and trying to figure out.
> 
> *My goal with this last-ditch-effort at counseling is to give my WW, with the assistance of our counselor, the chance to figure out how to do ALL the things she is going to need to do to possibly have a chance at re-building my trust.* I will not let the counselor or my WW deviate from this goal! All the other issues are secondary...
> 
> *Within a session or two... If I don't get the feeling that things are moving in the right direction, or that the counselor is trying to deviate from the above stated goal. I think I'm OUT and the D will continue.*
> 
> 
> 
> Luckily I have TAM. I think I will be much better prepared to approach counseling with a very clear goal at this point. There will be no more rug sweeping on my part and *the counselor will know exactly where I stand. How he decides to handle the situation will probably determine the outcome of my marriage. *Either my wife will "figure it out" with his help, or this will be a very short and expensive speed bump on the way towards our D.
> 
> 
> 
> Good idea. *I* will be prepared with a well thought out statement about my purpose for agreeing to try counseling. And *will fight anything that tries to deviate us from that purpose.*
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions on what to focus on. It will help me get the most out of this last effort *if I can stay focused.*
> 
> I don't really fear that I will be "replaced." I think I'm a pretty amazing Dad. I'm more afraid of my kids being put into dangerous or questionable situations being around someone that isn't as vested in their well being. =/
> 
> 
> 
> I also give this a slim chance of working out. *If this counselor can somehow give my wife the tools to do what NEEDS to be done on her side to help rebuild trust in our marriage. There is at least a chance. I truly believe she is willing but doesn't know WTF to do.* So who knows. At least it will be one last things for me to regret not having tried if we reach D.
> 
> 
> 
> She also did admit to cheating in the final hour of her previous marriage. She has a HUGE problem to be sure and there is no excuse for her actions. *Hopefully this counselor can offer insight as to why she does these things and she can do the heavy lifting required to move in the right direction... If not, I fear there is no help for us.*


Basically, all of the highlighted statements are those of a person who is unable or unwilling to take responsibility for his life and who, instead, depends upon others to make decisions for him and solve his problems. 

Most telling is your willingness to let your WW and some unknown counselor to determine the future of your marriage (see the statements *bolded in red*). Think about this for a minute. From the standpoint of your happiness and the well-being of your children, nothing is more important than what happens to your marriage and yet you are willing to let others, including strangers, decide whether it survives or not. If that is not proof that you have buried your head deeply in the sand, I don't know what is.

But other statements (those *bolded in black*) are also reflective of someone who has difficulty taking responsibility for and making decisions about his future:

- You want your WW to prove to you that she can be trusted but, as we all know from your story and as you seem unable to accept, she cannot be trusted. Your choice therefore is to continue your marriage knowing that she is untrustworthy but hoping that, in time, she will become trustworthy, or to end your marriage. The former strategy might actually work if you were the kind of man who could establish and enforce boundaries for both your WW and (even more importantly) for yourself but, unfortunately, as we have also learned from your story, you are not this kind of man.

- Your inability/unwillingness to take responsibility for yourself is also evident from your choice of words: "I _think_ I'm OUT," "_I will fight_ anything that tries to deviate us," and "_if_ I can stay focused." You only _"think"_ you're out because you don't have the courage to set boundaries on her behavior or on your tolerance for treachery. You're talk of _fighting_ is really just a disguised way of saying you haven't yet decided how much you are willing to tolerate (again, you can't or won't set boundaries for yourself). Your admission that you don't know if you can stay _"focused"_ simply reinforces this point.

Finally, the statement *bolded in blue* is an example of your inability or unwillingness to confront the reality of your situation -- you are married to a serial cheater who, apart from some belated, self-serving and demonstrably meaningless words (she continued to have inappropriate conversations with another man while she was begging for another chance!), has displayed no behavior that suggests she is willing to do anything to save her marriage (other than to continue to deceive and cajole you).

Until you 


start to make firm decisions as to what you will and won't accept on the part of your WW,
determine what will be the consequences if she continues to act badly and
find the courage to follow through with those consequences,
 your marriage will continue on its current course.

Instead of giving her an impossible task with an either/or consequence that you are clearly unwilling to follow through with -- (regain my trust or I will divorce you) -- why don't you set her some goals that there is some hope she can accomplish and couple these with consequences that you are prepared to mete out if she fails?

You could, for example, tell her stop all electronic communications with other men, let you see all of her communications, get a new job and go to IC in order to learn why she has such poor boundaries when it comes to other men. If she refused to do these things, then divorce would be the consequence but, if she agreed, made a valiant effort and showed progress, you could encourage her through both positive and negative reinforcement (albeit, less negative than divorcing her if she occasionally screwed up).

But I doubt that you have the capability to do these things, hence your predicament. Instead, you will continue to rely on your WW and possibly others to do things that make you feel -- temporarily and only to a small degree -- better, will coninue to threaten the nuclear option (divorce) and will continue to back down when your WW -- once again -- lets you down.

Just so you know, I would like nothing better than for you to prove me wrong.


P.S.: As someone else suggested, please read _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ by Dr. Robert Glover.


----------



## Colonel Angus

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Todi,
> 
> This post of yours tells us everything we need to know about you -- how you came to be in this situation, why you can't figure out what to do about it and, perhaps most importantly, why is it is likely that things will get worse for you before they get better. Consider:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, all of the highlighted statements are those of a person who is unable or unwilling to take responsibility for his life and who, instead, depends upon others to make decisions for him and solve his problems.
> 
> Most telling is your willingness to let your WW and some unknown counselor to determine the future of your marriage (see the statements *bolded in red*). Think about this for a minute. From the standpoint of your happiness and the well-being of your children, nothing is more important than what happens to your marriage and yet you are willing to let others, including strangers, decide whether it survives or not. If that is not proof that you have buried your head deeply in the sand, I don't know what is.
> 
> But other statements (those *bolded in black*) are also reflective of someone who has difficulty taking responsibility for and making decisions about his future:
> 
> - You want your WW to prove to you that she can be trusted but, as we all know from your story and as you seem unable to accept, she cannot be trusted. Your choice therefore is to continue your marriage knowing that she is untrustworthy but hoping that, in time, she will become trustworthy, or to end your marriage. The former strategy might actually work if you were the kind of man who could establish and enforce boundaries for both your WW and (even more importantly) for yourself but, unfortunately, as we have also learned from your story, you are not this kind of man.
> 
> - Your inability/unwillingness to take responsibility for yourself is also evident from your choice of words: "I _think_ I'm OUT," "_I will fight_ anything that tries to deviate us," and "_if_ I can stay focused." You only _"think"_ you're out because you don't have the courage to set boundaries on her behavior or on your tolerance for treachery. You're talk of _fighting_ is really just a disguised way of saying you haven't yet decided how much you are willing to tolerate (again, you can't or won't set boundaries for yourself). Your admission that you don't know if you can stay _"focused"_ simply reinforces this point.
> 
> Finally, the statement *bolded in blue* is an example of your inability or unwillingness to confront the reality of your situation -- you are married to a serial cheater who, apart from some belated, self-serving and demonstrably meaningless words (she continued to have inappropriate conversations with another man while she was begging for another chance!), has displayed no behavior that suggests she is willing to do anything to save her marriage (other than to continue to deceive and cajole you).
> 
> Until you
> 
> 
> start to make firm decisions as to what you will and won't accept on the part of your WW,
> determine what will be the consequences if she continues to act badly and
> find the courage to follow through with those consequences,
> your marriage will continue on its current course.
> 
> Instead of giving her an impossible task with an either/or consequence that you are clearly unwilling to follow through with -- (regain my trust or I will divorce you) -- why don't you set her some goals that there is some hope she can accomplish and couple these with consequences that you are prepared to mete out if she fails?
> 
> You could, for example, tell her stop all electronic communications with other men, let you see all of her communications, get a new job and go to IC in order to learn why she has such poor boundaries when it comes to other men. If she refused to do these things, then divorce would be the consequence but, if she agreed, made a valiant effort and showed progress, you could encourage her through both positive and negative reinforcement (albeit, less negative than divorcing her if she occasionally screwed up).
> 
> But I doubt that you have the capability to do these things, hence your predicament. Instead, you will continue to rely on your WW and possibly others to do things that make you feel -- temporarily and only to a small degree -- better, will coninue to threaten the nuclear option (divorce) and will continue to back down when your WW -- once again -- lets you down.
> 
> Just so you know, I would like nothing better than for you to prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> P.S.: As someone else suggested, please read _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ by Dr. Robert Glover.



Well said dear lady. It's just a shame that I'm color blind.



If I overstayed my welcome, just tap me on the head.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Colonel Angus said:


> Well said *dear lady.* It's just a shame that I'm color blind.
> 
> 
> 
> If I overstayed my welcome, just tap me on the head.


----------



## Todi

First of all, Thank you for the great response.



carmen ohio said:


> Most telling is your willingness to let your WW and some unknown counselor to determine the future of your marriage (see the statements bolded in red). Think about this for a minute. From the standpoint of your happiness and the well-being of your children, nothing is more important than what happens to your marriage and yet you are willing to let others, including strangers, decide whether it survives or not. If that is not proof that you have buried your head deeply in the sand, I don't know what is.


I'm not really allowing them to determine the future of my marriage. I am giving MC a "chance." My WW has mentioned many times over the past week and a half that she wants to do the heavy lifting, she wants to change but she doesn't know how. I obviously can't do it for her and am "Unwilling" (as you put it) to father/police her into it. Her last chance is this counselor being able to give her the tools necessary.

However, I do want to approach MC in a way that gives it a chance at being successful.



carmen ohio said:


> - You want your WW to prove to you that she can be trusted but, as we all know from your story and as you seem unable to accept, she cannot be trusted. Your choice therefore is to continue your marriage knowing that she is untrustworthy but hoping that, in time, she will become trustworthy, or to end your marriage. The former strategy might actually work if you were the kind of man who could establish and enforce boundaries for both your WW and (even more importantly) for yourself but, unfortunately, as we have also learned from your story, you are not this kind of man.


I can, and have, set boundaries, but if I've learned anything over the past several years is that I have no desire to be married to a woman that I also have to parent or police constantly. You are completely right that I am not the type of man that can, or will, set boundaries and spend the bulk of my efforts enforcing them. I feel like that's what I've been doing, at times, for the past 2.5 years. It's the "Enforcing Them" part of it that drained me the most...

As for setting boundaries, and enforcing them for myself... I feel like that is what I have been doing. Divorce is the consequence to the crossing of my boundaries. Looking back, I gave her one too many chances to change. In the scope of things, this last-ditch-effort at MC might delay the consequence by a week or two and has a slim chance of succeeding. It will at least be one less regret of something not tried.



carmen ohio said:


> - Your inability/unwillingness to take responsibility for yourself is also evident from your choice of words: "I think I'm OUT," "I will fight anything that tries to deviate us," and "if I can stay focused." You only "think" you're out because you don't have the courage to set boundaries on her behavior or on your tolerance for treachery. You're talk of fighting is really just a disguised way of saying you haven't yet decided how much you are willing to tolerate (again, you can't or won't set boundaries for yourself). Your admission that you don't know if you can stay "focused" simply reinforces this point.


I'm definitely having a hard time approaching this MC session. It's why I asked for help in trying to make it as effective as possibly if it's going to have any value. I am afraid of the session not being able to stay focused on what *I NEED*. There will be three of us there and I only have control of one of us. I will make it clear what my goal is with therapy, where I stand and what the consequence of it not working IS. I still can't make my WW or the counselor stay focused, not blame shift to me, shift focus to trying to fix the minor problems 1st, etc... I've already decided that if I determine that's how counseling is going to Pan-Out, then I will continue with D.

I do think you're right though. I am Too Nice and need a lot of help. I started reading No More Mr. Nice guy today and already have the feeling that I can make positive changes in myself as a result of reading it.



carmen ohio said:


> Instead of giving her an impossible task with an either/or consequence that you are clearly unwilling to follow through with -- (regain my trust or I will divorce you) -- why don't you set her some goals that there is some hope she can accomplish and couple these with consequences that you are prepared to mete out if she fails?


I do agree that the task of "Regain my trust of I will divorce you" is impossible. We've both found that out over the last couple years. I will pose this same question in MC. If we could break that task down into a series of obtainable goals that can be accomplished and monitored. It would be something to work with. What do you suggest for consequences short of Divorce though?

Also, remember that the catalyst for me asking my wife for D was not an indiscretion on her part. It was a decision I made because I felt like I could no longer police the boundaries I had already set. My wife had done all that I asked up to that point. I had access to her accounts, GPS on her phone, ways and means of policing the boundaries. It had been over a year without a single indication of something going on. Sure I triggered on occasion, but nothing was ever found. My decision to D was based solely on the fact that I felt like I would never get to a point where I would not have to police...

The last trigger was the email from her co-worker, and there definitely ended up being substance behind it. But it was not the reason I asked for Divorce.

I am done fathering and/or policing. If that's the answer to a successful marriage, then I will be unmarried the rest of my days after D. If more policing and boundaries are the ONLY answer to moving forward with my current wife, then D is the only answer for me. My only hope is that MC can help her become pro-active and give her to tools required to meet me half way on these things. I've found that I can't do the heavy lifting for both of us.

You are right on a lot of point. To some degree, I do have all the problems that you mention in your post. I do realize that and appreciate you for pointing it out so concisely. I'm especially at a loss when it comes to MC. I have no faith it's going to work, but my wife knows 100% sure what the consequence of us not figuring it out IS.


----------



## Ntsikzo

Todi said:


> First of all, Thank you for the great response.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not really allowing them to determine the future of my marriage. I am giving MC a "chance." My WW has mentioned many times over the past week and a half that she wants to do the heavy lifting, she wants to change but she doesn't know how. I obviously can't do it for her and am "Unwilling" (as you put it) to father/police her into it. Her last chance is this counselor being able to give her the tools necessary.
> 
> I can, and have, set boundaries, but if I've learned anything over the past several years is that I have no desire to be married to a woman that I also have to parent or police constantly. You are completely right that I am not the type of man that can, or will, set boundaries and spend the bulk of my efforts enforcing them. I feel like that's what I've been doing, at times, for the past 2.5 years. It's the "Enforcing Them" part of it that drained me the most...
> 
> As for setting boundaries, and enforcing them for myself... I feel like that is what I have been doing. Divorce is the consequence to the crossing of my boundaries. Looking back, I gave her one too many chances to change. In the scope of things, this last-ditch-effort at MC might delay the consequence by a week or two and has a slim chance of succeeding. It will at least be one less regret of something not tried.


Todi, 

From my understanding, when Carmen talks about setting boundaries and enforcing them she basically means, once you make a threat you must have the ability to follow through on it. I do not think she is talking about policing your WW. There must be real consequences for over-stepping those boundaries.

I also believe that your WW knows you very well and knows you will not follow through with D. I hope I am wrong and I am also not encouraging D if there is a chance of saving the marriage.

In this case your WW has not demonstrated her willingness to save this married through action. All you have are some crocodile tears and promises. But nothing tangible to show she is serious.

I also believe you asked for a D to get her attention, because deep inside you are hoping she will say something or do something to show you she cares. 

All the best whichever way the situation pans out


----------



## Todi

Ntsikzo said:


> From my understanding, when Carmen talks about setting boundaries and enforcing them she basically means, once you make a threat you must have the ability to follow through on it. I do not think she is talking about policing your WW. There must be real consequences for over-stepping those boundaries.


You guys are right. I set boundaries after the EA and didn't follow through with Divorce after the 2nd incident where she contacted an Ex and hid things. That last chance wasn't warranted and as a result I've felt the need to police for peace of mind... The triggering and policing have worn me down over the last year and caused me to ask for D.

If I don't follow through, I'm definitely sending the wrong message. I now think agreeing to try MC was a mistake. If nothing else it will be good for me to get all of this off of my chest and gauge this Counselor for some IC afterwards. I know I could benefit from some good IC, especially as I work through No More Mr. Nice guy and try to change.

I will go to one session on Wednesday and go from there.

Thank you all for taking the time to try and help an internet stranger with their problems. It is appreciated!


----------



## turnera

Just go ahead and file for divorce. It won't happen overnight - months if not a year. Do the MC while the divorce stuff is proceeding and once you reach a point where you have to decide to divorce or not, you'll know how/if the MC made an difference, and then you'll know how to proceed.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Taken from OP's post #193



Todi said:


> I am giving MC a "chance." My WW has mentioned many times over the past week and a half that she wants to do the heavy lifting, she wants to change but she doesn't know how.


I don't agree. She does know how. She just hasn't been able/willing to change as of yet.

She knows that talking to other men about your marriage, your relationship, or love/sex life is NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN anymore. Letting guys continually talk/pnome/text/email her in an attempt to meet up with her alone is NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

This isn't the riddle of the Sphinx you're talking about here. It's a grown, married woman is seeking/excepting attention from men that aren't her Husband.

She knew and she still knows, but she kept in contact(sprouting EA...) with an OM while she was pleading for you to not D her.

If she knows what she's done wrong, the change" is as simple as do not do these wrong things anymore...

Taken from OP's post #193




Todi said:


> The last trigger was the email from her co-worker, and there definitely ended up being substance behind it.


I rest my case.


She knows that you were about to D her. She knows that if you catch her again, you will D her. Counselers can help, but she has to decide to not do the things that she KNOWS will end the marriage. She has to want them more than doing the things she knows she shouldn't do.

This is what time, will tell. In 6 months, or 2 years, she will have to make a decision(s). I think that this will be the hardest part. The true test(s) to pass. When things are back to calm and normal. Then she finds herself trying to decide between a want and a need. The comfortable and the risky(exciting).

That's when she will raise her flag and you'll see what her true colors are.

Btw OP, if this starts working out and you two are still together in the future - If she ever tells you about a guy hitting on her and how she rebuffed his advances. Even if it bothers you, DO NOT SHOW IT. Hug her, kiss her and thank her for being honest with you.

Although I believe the reason that she didn't tell you about this recent guy was more because she knew she was wrong, she has to know that if she tells you like the above, you'll be o.k. with it.

Right now not many here give this R much hope, but stranger things have happened and we'd all rather see it work out for you.


----------



## Decorum

Todi said:


> I'm definitely having a hard time approaching this MC session. It's why I asked for help in trying to make it as effective as possibly if it's going to have any value. I am afraid of the session not being able to stay focused on what *I NEED*. There will be three of us there and I only have control of one of us. I will make it clear what my goal is with therapy, where I stand and what the consequence of it not working IS. I still can't make my WW or the counselor stay focused, not blame shift to me, shift focus to trying to fix the minor problems 1st, etc... I've already decided that if I determine that's how counseling is going to Pan-Out, then I will continue with D.


Ironic, you already know how it is likely to go. 

You are paying the "expert" for help. It will be interesting to see how he/she defines success.


----------



## Todi

Wife and I had a huge talk tonight after she got home from work... I knew she was working with the guy from the emails for the first time since we decided to try MC. Of course she felt attacked... 

It was a lot more of the same... ? her feeling attacked when really I'm just trying to explain WTF I expect if we have ANY shot of counseling helping. Her stating "I don't know" a lot... And me stating "then I hope our counselor knows..." 

I told her I would have expected her to at least try and ease my mind about working with this douche bag instead of just ignoring things... like she has for 2.5 years... She states that I would have been upset if she did. I argue that it would have built a small amount of trust and that's what I'm hoping for... Regardless whether I'm upset or not. It's wouldn't be easy for her to just change jobs at this point and wouldn't address the issue IMO... 

She doesn't get it... 

I'm already understanding my own faults and trying to change. Putting my heart on the table and hoping she will change. However... It seems unlikely...


----------



## Todi

WTF doesn't she *get it*???


----------



## imjustwatching

This is pathetic


----------



## bfree

Todi said:


> We finished a bottle and a half of wine together as we talked (or I attacked, depending on who you ask.) I briefly checked my computer before going to bed in our guest room...
> 
> Before I leave my office... I spy a little wooden box she recent gave me that has a chalk board finish she can write messages on. It currently reads "you make me smile."
> 
> I rage for a moment and throw it as hard as I can. It shatters. She walks in and says "really"...
> 
> I say "really" and head to the guess room. This is my life...
> 
> WTF doesn't she get it??? *sigh*


She gets it. But she doesn't want to fix it. That's where it is right now. If you intend on divorce then start the process and make sure she keeps her job. If you intend on reconciling then she quits her job RIGHT NOW! Either you are both all in our you're not. There is no middle ground.


----------



## jsmart

bfree said:


> She gets it. But she doesn't want to fix it. That's where it is right now. If you intend on divorce then start the process and make sure she keeps her job. If you intend on reconciling then she quits her job RIGHT NOW! Either you are both all in our you're not. There is no middle ground.


BFree is right. If you're going to R then she needs to leave that job ASAP. As long as she is in contact with POSOM, she will waiver in her effort to do the heavy lifting that R requires. I don't want to hear about but the finances crap. This is your family you're fighting for. Short term pain for family survival.

If family finances aren't a concern, but she insist on keeping job, you know where her heart is.

If you're tired of her betrayals and you're going to D, then she has to keep job, so you don't get screwed in family court.


----------



## jsmart

Todi said:


> *Wife and I had a huge talk tonight after she got home from work... I knew she was working with the guy from the emails for the first time since we decided to try MC. Of course she felt attacked.*..
> 
> It was a lot more of the same... ? her feeling attacked when really I'm just trying to explain WTF I expect if we have ANY shot of counseling helping. Her stating "I don't know" a lot... And me stating "then I hope our counselor knows..."
> 
> *I told her I would have expected her to at least try and ease my mind about working with this douche bag instead of just ignoring things*... like she has for 2.5 years... She states that I would have been upset if she did. I argue that it would have built a small amount of trust and that's what I'm hoping for... Regardless whether I'm upset or not. It's wouldn't be easy for her to just change jobs at this point and wouldn't address the issue IMO...
> 
> She doesn't get it...
> 
> I'm already understanding my own faults and trying to change. Putting my heart on the table and hoping she will change. However... It seems unlikely...


no more talking. You've talked and said your piece. Now is time for you to focus on being the best man you can be. 

She was attracted to other man. You have to pull her toward you by being the type of guy she would have an affair with. Doesn't mean to compromise yourself but after years of marriage and fatherhood, we can become complacent and boring. 

Time to destablize the relationship by making changes in yourself. 

1. Hit the gym, HARD. (heavy lifting to up T-levels)
2. Improve your wardrobe. Doesn't mean you have to wear suits but you need to up your look.
3. Make sure your hair and facial hair are flattering to your face.
4. Start some new hobby that can occupy your time and get you in touch with other men. You need male friends. 
5. Start reading some quality books that can help you reach for that inner masculine man that needs to come out.


----------



## carmen ohio

Reaction to your most recent comments and some additional thoughts:



Todi said:


> . . . I'm not really allowing them to determine the future of my marriage. I am giving MC a "chance."


Your inability to see what you are doing, even though you said it explicitly three times in post #182, just demonstrates how messed up your thinking is. A person who is in control of his destiny does not say things like _"How he decides to handle the situation will probably determine the outcome of my marriage."_



> My WW has mentioned many times over the past week and a half that she wants to do the heavy lifting, she wants to change but she doesn't know how. I obviously can't do it for her and am "Unwilling" (as you put it) to father/police her into it. Her last chance is this counselor being able to give her the tools necessary.


This statement is another example of your unwillingness to face the truth. Your WW knows what you want from her -- you want her to stop interacting inappropriately with other men. She also knows how to do it -- cease all communications with other men that are not strictly job related or required to carry out her family duties (e.g., talking to store clerks and repairmen). Saying she doesn't know this would only make sense if she were a simpleton, which she is not. Rather, you are the _emotional simpleton_ for excusing her unacceptable behavior by believing that she is powerless to avoid it. The truth is that you just don't want to face reality -- your WW does what she does because she wants to and knows she can get away with it. And you don't want to face reality because, once you do, you know that your only choice is to dissolve your marriage if she continues in her rebellion and, understandably, you don't want to break up your family. So, you continue to believe the unbelievable, that your WW can't help herself and that only the intervention of some gifted third party can save your marriage.

What you overlook is that, no matter how dedicated and talented the counselor may be, everything depends upon your WW's desire to change. But as long as she believes that she can get away with talking to other men behind your back, she will continue to do it. So, in the end, it all comes back to you. You either convince her that you have had enough and then let her choose either to live by your rules or end up divorced, or you continue on as you have for the past two-and-a-half years.



> However, I do want to approach MC in a way that gives it a chance at being successful.


MC isn't what is needed right now. MC is for people whose marriages are in trouble because they don't work well as a couple. Your marital problems (at least the one we are dealing with on this thread) arise because of your WW's behavior. Instead of agreeing to MC, you would have done better by asking your WW to get IC.



> I can, and have, set boundaries, but if I've learned anything over the past several years is that I have no desire to be married to a woman that I also have to parent or police constantly. You are completely right that I am not the type of man that can, or will, set boundaries and spend the bulk of my efforts enforcing them. I feel like that's what I've been doing, at times, for the past 2.5 years. It's the "Enforcing Them" part of it that drained me the most...
> 
> As for setting boundaries, and enforcing them for myself... I feel like that is what I have been doing. Divorce is the consequence to the crossing of my boundaries. Looking back, I gave her one too many chances to change . . .


Your words demonstrate that you don't understand what a boundary is. A boundary is created by requesting that another person engage or not in engage in a particular behavior and telling the other person what will be the consequence if he or she fails to honor the request. One doesn't _"police"_ a boundary. One simply metes out the consequence if it is crossed. Had you done this the first time your WW strayed, you might not have ended up in this situation. Instead, you complained about what she did, made idle threats and then failed to follow through when she -- repeatedly -- defied you. In effect, you trained her to ignore you. You still have the power to set a boundary for her. You simply tell her what it is that you want from her and what you will do if she fails to deliver (you could also promise her something if she succeeds), see what she does and then follow through. 



> I'm definitely having a hard time approaching this MC session. It's why I asked for help in trying to make it as effective as possibly if it's going to have any value. I am afraid of the session not being able to stay focused on what *I NEED*. There will be three of us there and I only have control of one of us. I will make it clear what my goal is with therapy, where I stand and what the consequence of it not working IS. I still can't make my WW or the counselor stay focused, not blame shift to me, shift focus to trying to fix the minor problems 1st, etc... I've already decided that if I determine that's how counseling is going to Pan-Out, then I will continue with D.


By agreeing to MC, you have set yourself up for failure. You don't need MC, you need your WW to stop engaging inappropriately with other men. She won't stop until you believes that she has no choice but to stop or lose her marriage. Of course, she may not stop even then, if she doesn't value her marriage sufficiently (which is especially likely if her bad behavior is the result of a personality disorder).



> I do think you're right though. I am Too Nice and need a lot of help. I started reading No More Mr. Nice guy today and already have the feeling that I can make positive changes in myself as a result of reading it.


Glad to hear this.



> I do agree that the task of "Regain my trust of I will divorce you" is impossible. We've both found that out over the last couple years. I will pose this same question in MC. If we could break that task down into a series of obtainable goals that can be accomplished and monitored. It would be something to work with. What do you suggest for consequences short of Divorce though?


First infraction: she sleeps on the couch. Second infraction, she moves out of the house. Third infraction: you file for D.



> Also, remember that the catalyst for me asking my wife for D was not an indiscretion on her part. It was a decision I made because I felt like I could no longer police the boundaries I had already set. My wife had done all that I asked up to that point. I had access to her accounts, GPS on her phone, ways and means of policing the boundaries. It had been over a year without a single indication of something going on. Sure I triggered on occasion, but nothing was ever found. My decision to D was based solely on the fact that I felt like I would never get to a point where I would not have to police...


Here's what you said in your OP (emphasis added):



> 4 days ago I finally told my wife of 8 years (2 young kids) I wanted a D. She had an EA 2.5 years ago with an Ex and I gave her another chance. *She broke the boundaries we set over a year ago* by contacting and catching up with an Ex (guy she cheated on her 1st husband with.) I gave her another chance. *She has a history of deleting communications or trying to hide them from me and trying to go more under-ground,* but I caught her in both cases. Each time she says the communications were innocent but she was afraid of how I would react. I have no proof things would have progressed further, but that's not the point... *She needs to be able to tell me about anyone she talks to, regardless of how I "might" react..*


IMO, you are deceiving yourself if you believe that your main motivation for bringing up D was your unwillingness to continue to _'police'_ your WW. Rather, it was the fact that you need to police her because she repeatedly did things she shouldn't have.



> The last trigger was the email from her co-worker, and there definitely ended up being substance behind it. But it was not the reason I asked for Divorce.


No, but it proves the point that your WW has no respect for and continues to defy you. Interestingly, even this most recent demonstration of her attitude toward you and your marriage was not enough to cause you to carry out your threat to D. As I said before, that tells us all we need to know about you and your problem.



> I am done fathering and/or policing. If that's the answer to a successful marriage, then I will be unmarried the rest of my days after D. If more policing and boundaries are the ONLY answer to moving forward with my current wife, then D is the only answer for me. My only hope is that MC can help her become pro-active and give her to tools required to meet me half way on these things. I've found that I can't do the heavy lifting for both of us.


_"Policing"_ is not necessary in a successful marriage, but you do not have one. If you are unwilling to set and enforce boundaries, then you have a simple choice: D your WW or learn to live with her shenanigans.



> You are right on a lot of point. To some degree, I do have all the problems that you mention in your post. I do realize that and appreciate you for pointing it out so concisely. I'm especially at a loss when it comes to MC. I have no faith it's going to work, but my wife knows 100% sure what the consequence of us not figuring it out IS.


You know my views on MC. I doubt that your WW knows 100% what the consequence will be, given your track record. Here's how I see your situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkzWyOaS8kU.



Todi said:


> You guys are right. I set boundaries after the EA and didn't follow through with Divorce after the 2nd incident where she contacted an Ex and hid things. That last chance wasn't warranted and as a result I've felt the need to police for peace of mind... The triggering and policing have worn me down over the last year and caused me to ask for D.
> 
> If I don't follow through, I'm definitely sending the wrong message. I now think agreeing to try MC was a mistake. If nothing else it will be good for me to get all of this off of my chest and gauge this Counselor for some IC afterwards. I know I could benefit from some good IC, especially as I work through No More Mr. Nice guy and try to change.
> 
> I will go to one session on Wednesday and go from there.
> 
> Thank you all for taking the time to try and help an internet stranger with their problems. It is appreciated!


This is a great post. I looks like you are finally beginning to see where you stand and what you need to do.

No matter what becomes of your marriage, read NMMNG and start to put in place the changes that will make you a stronger and happier person.



Todi said:


> Wife and I had a huge talk tonight after she got home from work... I knew she was working with the guy from the emails for the first time since we decided to try MC. Of course she felt attacked...
> 
> It was a lot more of the same... ? her feeling attacked when really I'm just trying to explain WTF I expect if we have ANY shot of counseling helping. Her stating "I don't know" a lot... And me stating "then I hope our counselor knows..."
> 
> I told her I would have expected her to at least try and ease my mind about working with this douche bag instead of just ignoring things... like she has for 2.5 years... She states that I would have been upset if she did. I argue that it would have built a small amount of trust and that's what I'm hoping for... Regardless whether I'm upset or not. It's wouldn't be easy for her to just change jobs at this point and wouldn't address the issue IMO...
> 
> She doesn't get it...
> 
> I'm already understanding my own faults and trying to change. Putting my heart on the table and hoping she will change. However... It seems unlikely...


She won't change until you do . . . and maybe not even then. But you need to become a new, stronger person, whether you D her or not.



Todi said:


> We finished a bottle and a half of wine together as we talked (or I attacked, depending on who you ask.) I briefly checked my computer before going to bed in our guest room...
> 
> Before I leave my office... I spy a little wooden box she recent gave me that has a chalk board finish she can write messages on. It currently reads "you make me smile."
> 
> I rage for a moment and throw it as hard as I can. It shatters. She walks in and says "really"...
> 
> I say "really" and head to the guess room. This is my life...
> 
> WTF doesn't she get it??? *sigh*


I would strongly urge you to stay away from alcohol, especially when interacting with your WW.

***

You still have a long row to hoe before you get to were you need to be, but you are making progress. You're obviously a smart guy, intellectually. Now you need to get smart emotionally. This requires that you become more critical of both your and her actions and more honest about what the both of you need to do.

While I think things look bad for your marriage, I don't think they are entirely hopeless. If you can muster the strength to start giving her real consequences for bad behavior -- and if she truly wants to be married to you and doesn't have a serious personality disorder -- the two of you just might make it.

But it has to start with you. You need to start acting like the head of your family rather than like a helpless victim.

I hope this helps. Like the rest of the people here, I'm pulling for you.


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## ArmyofJuan

Todi said:


> WTF doesn't she *get it*???


She gets it, she just doesn't care and still thinks you are bluffing. She still thinks she was entitled to what she did, even if you didn't like it.

Don't try to force her to comply or understand, follow through with your word (one reason why she may not respect you is because you don't).


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## carmen ohio

jsmart said:


> no more talking. You've talked and said your piece. Now is time for you to focus on being the best man you can be.
> 
> She was attracted to other man. You have to pull her toward you by being the type of guy she would have an affair with. Doesn't mean to compromise yourself but after years of marriage and fatherhood, we can become complacent and boring.
> 
> Time to destablize the relationship by making changes in yourself.
> 
> 1. Hit the gym, HARD. (heavy lifting to up T-levels)
> 2. Improve your wardrobe. Doesn't mean you have to wear suits but you need to up your look.
> 3. Make sure your hair and facial hair are flattering to your face.
> 4. Start some new hobby that can occupy your time and get you in touch with other men. You need male friends.
> 5. Start reading some quality books that can help you reach for that inner masculine man that needs to come out.


:iagree:

This, coupled with starting to give your WW consequences, it what is needed. Then, she either changes into the kind of woman you want to be with or you become the kind of man who can attract and keep another such woman.


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## Todi

jsmart said:


> Time to destablize the relationship by making changes in yourself.
> 
> 1. Hit the gym, HARD. (heavy lifting to up T-levels)
> 2. Improve your wardrobe. Doesn't mean you have to wear suits but you need to up your look.
> 3. Make sure your hair and facial hair are flattering to your face.
> 4. Start some new hobby that can occupy your time and get you in touch with other men. You need male friends.
> 5. Start reading some quality books that can help you reach for that inner masculine man that needs to come out.


Good advice. Suggestions on 4 and 5?


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## azteca1986

Todi said:


> Good advice. Suggestions on 4 and 5?


For 4: Anything you used to enjoy, that you gave up. You are about to have 2/3 of your time free to pursue things you want to do, gave up once you got married or always wanted to do but never got round to doing because you were married with kids.


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## turnera

Todi said:


> Good advice. Suggestions on 4 and 5?


What do YOU care about? As a person? What turns you on, what makes you smile? What would make you wake up and say 'oh boy I get to go do ABC today!'?

But before you do that, figure that out, there's something more important you have to do.

Given what she's now told you, you have one job. To say this:

"Ok, you've made it clear you value your job and your friendship more than being married to me. I told you I was filing for divorce - you begged me not to. And then almost immediately, you tell me to get over it. You just made up my mind for me. I'll file the paperwork this week."


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## Mr Blunt

Todi

You have got some great advice.
That advice will be completly wasted if you do not TAKE ACTIONS!
You are either going to stand up and take actions or be a mush ball!


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## gouge_away

Suggestion #5 Boundaries, and cross reference with the book that inspired it.


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## RV9

It's time to file friend... Sorry she doesn't and won't get it. So you should.


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