# "he should have given me more attention.." etc etc ...



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Yet another ws thread makes me ask this in a new thread so as not to derail the other one

"he should have given me more attention.."

Now I am looking at this from a purely male perspective but I have finally come to see this and what's behind it as utter folk lore claptrap

I like everybody have been brought up with the 
"a woman needs this" and 
"a woman needs that" 
"she has her 'womanly ways'" and the 
"why did you do that my love that was a bit naughty "yes but I'm 'a woman'" etc etc 

I think you get the drift here 

I know, I know all geared on the basic instinct of procreation, a man needing to pursue a woman and her to choose the strongest suitor etc etc 

However this is now the 21st century and I think this whole idea, the idea that a woman can use this, still use this is a form of cake eating in itself

As threads here show time and again it gives a woman a 'way out' to infidelity. It's a bit of a free ticket "well my husband is so terrible - he does not shower me with the attention I crave so I am (dare I use the word) 'entitled' to look elsewhere for it"

It seems to be a by word, almost a hidden warning for us men - If you don't bring your wife flowers boxes of chocolates keep the romance going by organizing small exhibitions tokens of 'love' then you can also expect to get cheated on ....and you'll deserve it

It's like an insidious rule in the marriage vows but an unspoken one 

I've done all that, has have thousands of men, but it seems the moment our wayward woman get themselves all wet over some other male they, surprise surprise, start to feel we are no longer "attentive" to their needs 

Woman want to be equal? - yes ? I'm all for that well you show me some 'tokens' of 'love' you make little 'romantic surprises' for me then

So ladies how do you feel about the new rule coming in tomorrow that says - Should you not show reciprocal token 'love' gestures throughout the marriage / relationship then we males will just go out and seek emotional and physical relationships with the hell we want to?

I'd point out I love woman, love the chemistry, the differences of us all but what hits me now more than ever is the complete hypocrisy of all this "I need this "or "that" "because I'm a woman" 

Can't wait to use this 'attention' thing in my next relationship - I wonder how long that will last?

The next time I hear a woman doing this I'm afraid my eyes will roll heavenwards very quickly 

Do you boys still believe in all this 
still get hooked by it 
even though it's a lever into your hearts are you still all okay with it - until it bites your arse big time and you end up on TAM!?

Do you woman 
still use this to catch your man to, 
keep him on his toes? 
to use as a stick to control your man 
do you girls still use this get what you want from your man? 

Are their any waywards that have NOT used this excuse when deep in the affair?


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Boy, someone is bitter. 

What bout all the men who cheat on loving wives who do give much attention nd affection and tokens of their love to the man? And are there not husbands who stray and use the excuse that they are not getting enough attention from their wives?

Some women may fit your profile but many more do not.

My personal experience is limited to my two wives and the other women in my family - some 20 women and none of them fit your profile. That doesn't disprove your theses but it does indicate it does not apply to all women.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Hmm...I thought we here at TAM were smart enough to know NOT to give in to gender stereotyping. 

As Maneo wrote, MEN DO THIS TOO. 

Seems that BOTH genders will use the "you-weren't-giving-me-enough-attention" excuse for cheating. It's also been demonstrated here and numerous other forums, that even if you DID give your partner attention, your partner can STILL cheat...

...*IF* your partner is open to cheating. 

Vega


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Headspin said:


> Woman want to be equal? - yes ? I'm all for that well you show me some 'tokens' of 'love' you make little 'romantic surprises' for me then


Who the hell told you that?
I'll be damned if I'm going to wait for my wife to show me crap!!!!

I show her love cuz I want too and if it dosen't get returned there are consequences...not saying I expect it..but I diserve it...and so does she!!!!!!!

sorry brother but I protect my marriage now...there is no equality about that. And if Mrs. the guy doesn't do the same then phuck her....but at the end of the day I lock my house up, and Mrs. the -guy can find another house if she doesn't like the guy who locks up hers!


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

I think both women and men cheat for the same reasons, including a perceived lack of attention. 

However men are probably not so forthcoming when they discuss the reasons for their cheating. 

Perhaps men are also not quite so clued up on the reasons why they cheat? 

Perhaps the emotions (of perceived lack of attention) do not run as deep as they do in women, so women have that depth of clarity with their emotions that men do not. They are then able to confess it to a greater extent then men can.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I think both women and men cheat for the same reasons, including a perceived lack of attention.
> 
> However men are probably not so forthcoming when they discuss the reasons for their cheating.
> 
> ...


I agree that they usually do it for the same reasons, but I'd say my agreement stops there. I think men are reluctant to discuss the reasons for cheating altogether, but in my experience women discuss it so they can try to retroactively find some sort of pathing, so they can validate what they did. If the situation is "complicated," or "exceptional", then they can think theirs is a unique dilemma, somehow excusing their decision to cheat. We live in a society that is dedicated to artificially inflating women's egos, so this process goes largely unchallenged. Hell it goes largely undetected, since our society crams it down our throat it doesn't seem odd. 

The spawning of feminism is the fault of men oppressing women. But feminism has grown into the most harrowing of all oppressions because it has been given the mask of nobility.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vega said:


> Hmm...I thought we here at TAM were smart enough to know NOT to give in to gender stereotyping.
> 
> As Maneo wrote, MEN DO THIS TOO.
> 
> ...



Well no, actually men do not do this in the same way 

There is a perception that has been practiced for a 1000 years that a woman can this or that and come up with the "well (coy face) I'm a woman so"....

It's not being anti woman as such its just recognizing that woman use this, what can I call it, an 'edge' when trying to get things to have what they want - it is a definitive manipulative process they use, that we men often are happy to go along with 

Men do not use that in the same way , definitely not 
It is often thought of as a cuteness / a charm about a woman when she uses this

I should add that it often is quite cute and charming but again as we see on here a lot can be used to give themselves the excuse (" I'm a woman I need attention" )to get themselves wrapped up in an extra marital affair 

I'd also add I know a few woman that are this way, not all of them have affairs and commit adultery though but clearly some of them do


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Vega said:


> Hmm...I thought we here at TAM were smart enough to know NOT to give in to gender stereotyping.
> 
> As Maneo wrote, MEN DO THIS TOO.
> 
> ...


I am really having serious doubts about where the equality thingy is leading. 

Looking back you get the impression women were oppressed but how do you explain this?

I talked to a deputy sheriff a couple of years ago at my sons high school football game. There is now a deputy assigned to the high school campus full time. Among other things, he told me there is little trouble with boys fighting. Girls,on the other hand, fight a lot, viciously. Bashing heads into concrete, ripping out hair etc. This is a relatively small, rural county, school. I can't remember one girl fight in my 12 years in this system.


Young men are opting out of higher education. Women are greatly outnumbering men in college now.

Marriage rates are dropping percipitously.

In Australia, the western country said to be the most advanced when it comes to women's equality, women now outnumber men on the worlds leading cheaters website for married people. ( A M)

What gives?


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## olwhatsisname (Dec 5, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Yet another ws thread makes me ask this in a new thread so as not to derail the other one
> 
> "he should have given me more attention.."
> 
> ...


______they- women have most things directed for/towards/and in sympathy with them====but they still are totally about getting their OWN way, whatever that is today.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Maneo said:


> Boy, someone is bitter.
> 
> What bout all the men who cheat on loving wives who do give much attention nd affection and tokens of their love to the man?


Any man who says he cheated on his wife because his "emotional needs weren't being met" is either lying or has a testosterone deficiency. Anecdotally, the couple of guys who I know who have cheated on there wives or girlfriend have owned their sleaziness and now make it clear that they simply aren't relationship material. I can respect that, a weird way.

But what we have in the modern wayward woman is a complete inability to accept agency for their scumbaggery. Generally speaking, of course. Anecdotally again, I ran into a friend of my xWF who was sympathetic and happy to hear how my life was going. But when the subject of my ex's infidelity came up she said something to the effect of "well, you guys had other problems in the relationship."

I couldn't believe that my ex was still equating my inability to load a dishwasher to her liking with her infidelity. Actually, I can. Hours of Oprah, Lifetime, Eat Pray Love, Moostruck rotted her mind.

This may sound a bit sexist, but it's not. I don't feel that women are naturally any more dishonest than men. I feel that something way off in our society and we still allow women to blame someone or something other than themselves for their moral failings.

A man simply cannot do that... And still command any respect in society.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Any man who says he cheated on his wife because his "emotional needs weren't being met" is either lying or has a testosterone deficiency. Anecdotally, the couple of guys who I know who have cheated on there wives or girlfriend have owned their sleaziness and now make it clear that they simply aren't relationship material. I can respect that, a weird way.
> 
> But what we have in the modern wayward woman is a complete inability to accept agency for their scumbaggery. Generally speaking, of course. Anecdotally again, I ran into a friend of my xWF who was sympathetic and happy to hear how my life was going. But when the subject of my ex's infidelity came up she said something to the effect of "well, you guys had other problems in the relationship."
> 
> ...


You see there's the point it's touchy subject. 

I'm the same I just feel somewhere in the current social world there is a kind of 'vibe' that is hinting at "yeah I can do that" (eyes a flutter) -"because I'm a woman" and sure, as a man I've often been entranced with that cheekiness but I sense it's kinda moved up a notch - now it's "I need attention you're a man you should be paying me more attention " - "why" ? 

......"because I'm a woman" 

And it seems to be a 'valid' reason for a woman to stray. I know not all woman are like this but it does seem to be a growing kinda thing


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

There's never an excuse for cheating. If a mate is that bad, then LEAVE. Then date someone else if you want.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Headspin said:


> ....."because I'm a woman"
> 
> And it seems to be a 'valid' reason for a woman to stray. I know not all woman are like this but it does seem to be a growing kinda thing


The acronym over on the "manosphere" blogs is NAWALT, and they love raking the participants who make NAWALT arguments over the coals. I remain optimistic. As I said, there's something in society that is causing this. We have de jure equal rights but de facto unequal responsibilities.

Its not innate and I like to think it's transitional and that things will eventually balance out.

I was talking with my GF about something my xWF once did and casually mentioned her "because I'm a woman" justification. My GF said, "if I can be honest, she sounds a little unbalanced. That's not being a woman, that's called being a drama queen. It pisses me off when women pull that bull****." I replied, "please bear my children!"

Granted she's about 8 years younger than my ex and could just as easily go all EPL once she hits 30 too. But then again, she's 8 years younger than my ex and may represent a growing sentiment amongst even the most liberal-leaning 80s babies.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

that_girl said:


> There's never an excuse for cheating. If a mate is that bad, then LEAVE. Then date someone else if you want.


But, but, but... It's complicated!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well no, actually men do not do this in the same way
> 
> There is a perception that has been practiced for a 1000 years that a woman can this or that and come up with the "well (coy face) I'm a woman so"....
> 
> ...


Hence the old joke: 

Q) "Why are men like carpet tiles?"
A) "Because if you lay them right the first time, you can walk on them for ever."


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There will never be a level playing field between men and women in any aspect of life. Such equality is impossible.

Male and female sexuality are different. The emotional life of men and woman is different. Male and female attitudes towards infidelity are different. Legal systems treat male and female differently when it comes to parental rights, crime and punishment. Public spending treats men and women differently.

These things can be adjusted but they can never be put into perfect balance.

When it comes to infidelity women are punished harder for cheating than men in terms of moral condemnation. The number of swear words to describe unfaithful women is far greater than the number to describe a cheating men. That is a reflection of biologically programmed sexual jealousy.

From an evolutionary point of view cheating is adaptive. **** sapiens in prehistory were probably not monogamous. The establishment of marriage cannot turn off the desire to change partners. So, cheating will always occur among some percentage of couples.

The only way to change this is by punishing people. But we know that no fault divorce has taken over. All an individual can do is be realistic. For men is it realistic to assume that women have a different moral standard than men when it comes to duplicity in relationships? I think that is biologically programmed. In prehistory men were more violent and women had to be quick thinking when it came to emotional communication.

Men are more violent than women. This will never change. Women are better liars than men. This won't change either.

Example from real life: in my 20s I had girlfriend with whom I split when she moved back to her home country (somewhere in Europe). Months later I went to visit her. I only stayed a couple of days, but we had sex. She had already gotten a new boyfriend. What if he were to call, I asked.

"I'll tell him my mother is visiting," she replied without any hesitation.

Later when I thought about it I was dumbfounded. It was so easy for her to reflexively come up with a little lie. She was not an immoral or flighty person. She was extremely responsible. I think she accepted the idea that infidelity was not so bad in part because her father cheated on her mother and her mother stayed in the relationship. I am sure that she considered cheating immoral if you loved your spouse or partner.

Almost all people lie. It is part of being diplomatic at times. Women are generally more diplomatic than men and hence are better liars.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> The acronym over on the "manosphere" blogs is NAWALT, and they love raking the participants who make NAWALT arguments over the coals..


There is a special place in hades for people who pretend to be informing others by introducing acronyms they don't define.

There are a number of classes of people who do this. One are the people who don't know what the acronym actually stands for, and look at you stupidly when you ask them to spell out what the letters mean. They even get angry at you for asking.

These people are such idiots that they don't even understand that spelling out the letters is the exact definition of what the word means, and instead of doing that they try to use examples or explain it indirectly. Like the EPA. "Those are the people, you know, um, like ah, they fight the oil companies..." Instead of "Environmental Protection Agency" which is vastly superior to any other description of what it means. 

Another class is using the manipulative "I know something you don't know" put-down, as if knowing an acronym makes you smarter than, say, a bag of rocks.

I think that covers 99% of the cases.

NAWALT stands for "Not All Women Are Like That", which took not too much googling to find, but was annoying enough to unload on you for being so discourteous as to introduce an acronym without defining it. It's one of the things I dislike about this site - the incessant use of acronyms. 

The opening post is far too vague. There are definitely things women need and if you don't learn how to provide them then you'll just never have one. Seems to me from the discussion of NAWALT I googled that mostly they are complaining about the feminist tool kit of manipulative covert aggression against men. Not all women are like that. As a rule, if one self-identifies as a feminist, don't waste another moment of your time. From the outset, identifying one's self as a believer in something that can mean anything from A to Z according to whoever is using it and what their immediate purpose is - that tells you they are just fine with word games. So don't waste your time, you can't win with intellectually dishonest people.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> There is a special place in hades for people who pretend to be informing others by introducing acronyms they don't define.
> 
> There are a number of classes of people who do this. One are the people who don't know what the acronym actually stands for, and look at you stupidly when you ask them to spell out what the letters mean. They even get angry at you for asking.
> 
> ...


Okay I can see your point about acronyms - fair point. I agree

However there is nothing vague about my op - it seems pretty obvious to me at any rate .

A question I'd press you on is, to quote you, "There are definitely things women need and if you don't learn how to provide them then you'll just never have one"

So what things are they then? - precisely what are the things woman 'need' and why?? Why do they, as woman, as opposed to men need them?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> There is a perception that has been practiced for a 1000 years that a woman can this or that and come up with the "well (coy face) I'm a woman so"....
> 
> Men do not use that in the same way , definitely not
> It is often thought of as a cuteness / a charm about a woman when she uses this


Perhaps "men" are not demure or "coy faced". Instead they're often _condescending_, when they say, "I cheated because I'm a man, and men have 'needs'..." 

...like you're some kind of IDIOT for not KNOWING that "all men cheat".

The bottom line is that when either a man OR a woman tells you that they cheated because their "needs weren't getting met", they're BOTH _in denial_. 

Through intense therapy, both male and female cheaters have reached the same conclusions: They cheated because they were *selfish*

Selfishness knows no gender.

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> So what things are they then? - *precisely what are the things woman 'need' and why?? *Why do they, as woman, as opposed to men need them?


What are the things that MEN 'need' and WHY?

You can't lump ALL WOMEN into a single category any more than you can lump ALL MEN into a single category. Men and women are a LOT more _similar_ (to one another) than they are _DISsiminar_. 

Vega


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vega said:


> Perhaps "men" are not demure or "coy faced". Instead they're often _condescending_, when they say, "I cheated because I'm a man, and men have 'needs'..."
> 
> ...like you're some kind of IDIOT for not KNOWING that "all men cheat".
> 
> ...


No sorry but it's not the same - men may well have their needs not in the same way imo. Woman these days definitely feel they can use the yeah I want that "because I'm a woman" more than the men - in my opinion.

I think it's a growing tendency especially in terms of infidelity

Look not all woman or men cheat obviously, but for me this 'excuse' "well I'm a woman - I need more attention" is far more prevalent than the reverse


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vega said:


> What are the things that MEN 'need' and WHY?
> 
> You can't lump ALL WOMEN into a single category any more than you can lump ALL MEN into a single category. Men and women are a LOT more _similar_ (to one another) than they are _DISsiminar_.
> 
> Vega


But it's a fair enough question


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> No sorry but it's not the same - men may well have their needs not in the same way imo. Woman these days definitely feel they can use the yeah I want that "because I'm a woman" more than the men - in my opinion.
> 
> I think it's a growing tendency especially in terms of infidelity
> 
> Look not all woman or men cheat obviously, but for me this 'excuse' "well I'm a woman - I need more attention" is far more prevalent than the reverse


Being a woman, I have heard the REVERSE more times: I've heard, "...because I'm a MAN" more times from MEN than I have heard, "...because I'm a WOMAN".


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> But it's a fair enough question


No, it isn't a "fair" question because ALL WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT!

Not ALL women like roses. Personally, I'm NOT fond of roses. 
Not ALL women like to work out in the gym. Personally, I LOVE lifting! 

But there IS one thing that women want that's EXACTLY the same thing as what MEN want: R-E-S-P-E-C-T. 

Vega


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Vega, he is venting give him a tiny break. He is trying things his way, against all advice and can't understand why his wife is using him as a doormat. So, the easiest way to cope with his own infallibility is to generalize all women.

You know like all of the threads that start with "why is this gender so..blah blah blah blah blah."


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Okay I can see your point about acronyms - fair point. I agree


Thank you. 



> However there is nothing vague about my op - it seems pretty obvious to me at any rate .


Then we really aren't communicating. People on this site are nearly universally opposed to illicit affairs so we could stop right there without any need to get into what your beef is. Who cares what her excuse is. It's invalid.

But you object to women having needs. :scratchhead: You've modified or clarified that in your response to me, namely to ask what of those needs are different from any other human, namely males. 

Probably the thing most worth pointing to is security. Evolution, under the pressure of natural selection, produced biological specialization in birthing and feeding of the children, which is a process that took many _years_ until the children were old enough. A woman needs the security of a trustworthy, fit companion to be successful at that in the first few millions of years evolutionary history. 

The juicy hypocrisy in the feminist movement is exploiting that exact insecurity by saying you should never be in a position of "depending" on a man. Instead, find your security via investment in education and career. If we are going to use that term dependence though, it has not vanished. It has been transferred to dependence upon employers and the people who have their hands on your children now in the daycares and schools. 

But that still leaves you dependent upon a man for all of the emotional needs, companionship, sex, the synergies attendant to relationships, etc. which the feminist movement is completely bankrupt in addressing. Despite their silly propaganda, you can't reverse millions of years' evolution in one generation. Women are still the same biological creatures they were a generation ago.

Men are left with these modern rules you see posted all over this board about being an "alpha", for example, which in the main is an appeal to base biological motives of smashing the skull of the sabre-toothed tiger trying to eat your children. It is supplanted by being a sports star or political figure, an actor or rock musician or whatever fora we can be alphas in today. 

The pick-up artist groupies try to replace bona-fide success in these kinds of human competitions with manipulative tricks like "neg theory". If you are crushing your opponents in the ring, you don't need neg theory or pea****ing with stupid hats and a silk shirt open down to your navel. Nothing succeeds like success. 

Beauty with women, evolutionarily, represents very strong biology in terms of health, reproductive fitness, survival of offspring - so there is just no questioning why sporst heros, wealthy businessmen, powerful politicians, etc. have the beautiful women or conversely you do not see the hottest babes with the bums habitating alleys and nursing peach vodka in a paper bag. They have men who out-competed the others.

There are other needs too of course, but this is the main one that addresses the evolutionary security matter. Others like kindness and compassion, empathy, ability to compromise and etc. are things that span both sexes and you are not so interested in them.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> As a rule, if one self-identifies as a feminist, don't waste another moment of your time. From the outset, identifying one's self as a believer in something that can mean anything from A to Z according to whoever is using it and what their immediate purpose is - that tells you they are just fine with word games. So don't waste your time, you can't win with intellectually dishonest people.


Many young women are told that they have to be feminists in school. It is the socialism of our times. Feminism generally lacks a sense of humor.

Wiserforit, you are right on. Television and the media make it even more difficult for average people to be happy with average people. The Kobe Bryant rape case was a great example. Of course, we don't really know or care what really happened. However, the acquittal suggests that he just exuded alpha sex appeal. She gave signals that she wanted sex and he acted. Afterwards she felt dumb.


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## kezins (Aug 25, 2013)

Every situation is different, but a lot of the times the person claiming they aren't getting enough attention aren't giving enough attention themselves. People use this as an excuse to cheat and it's usually total BS. 

While one person may throw 100% of the blame to the other person to excuse cheating and other things, it often takes both people to ruin a relationship. 

I don't think this should be a male vs female debate thpugh. Both sexes do it.


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## kezins (Aug 25, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Many young women are told that they have to be feminists in school. It is the socialism of our times. Feminism generally lacks a sense of humor.
> 
> Wiserforit, you are right on. Television and the media make it even more difficult for average people to be happy with average people. The Kobe Bryant rape case was a great example. Of course, we don't really know or care what really happened. However, the acquittal suggests that he just exuded alpha sex appeal. She gave signals that she wanted sex and he acted. Afterwards she felt dumb.


Just like any political or social movement, feminism can be either a great thing or an awful thing in different scenarios. It's definitely not good when it is on the extreme end. I personally like the idea of gender equality, but people who practice feminism really need to understand that you will always lose one thing for every one thing you gain. That's just how life works.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

The excuse OP cites in his initial post is total BS.

And both sexes use it.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> The excuse OP cites in his initial post is total BS.
> 
> And both sexes use it.


That's harsh it's not BS. 

It's an opinion and it comes from seeing often the "I'm a woman and he didn't give me the attention a woman should have" "a woman get's from a loving caring husband" etc etc " "so I went and got it somewhere else, fked around and destroyed my and other families completely"

I don't make that up, I see it in threads on this board "I need attention I am a woman so therefore I should get it" "I did'nt get it so ( I now have a valid reason to have an affair - basically it is his fault ) 

I do NOT see that from men, I see it from woman and that is a simple point. We men may have our questionable character flaws traits but for me this is one I see in many many woman regularly and it does seem to be an excuse for betraying a good man 

I'm not anti woman, I love woman but I think it is a current point and one that is valid 

You girls can point to whatever shortcomings we as men have but this one for me is a female trait that is in the female dna and when used as an excuse for adultery is pretty poor

As I said it's a 'cuteness' that woman use that mostly is a flirtatious and often attractive quality but I'm noting it has it's down side too


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

I don't know what forum posts you've been reading pal or what your personal observations are, but I've seen guys use the same type of excuse for their infidelity. My experience and observation is that women don't have the monopoly on that market. I don't expect you to change your view but don't insist your reality on the rest of us.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I don't make that up, I see it in threads on this board "I need attention I am a woman so therefore I should get it" "I did'nt get it so ( I now have a valid reason to have an affair - basically it is his fault )
> 
> *I do NOT see that from men*, I see it from woman and that is a simple point. We men may have our questionable character flaws traits but for me this is one I see in many many woman regularly and it does seem to be an excuse for betraying a good man


Sorry Headspin, but I've seen it here at CWI and on other forums as well. I've seen it from both men AND women, although MOST of the time I dont' see the added, "...because I'm a woman" or "...because I'm a man". 

Both genders DO often site, "I need(ed) attention and I wasn't getting it". 

Vega


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Maneo said:


> I don't know what forum posts you've been reading pal or what your personal observations are, but I've seen guys use the same type of excuse for their infidelity. My experience and observation is that women don't have the monopoly on that market. I don't expect you to change your view but don't insist your reality on the rest of us.


"pal"

My observation is that I think woman use this far more than men and I have seen it often on this board and it tends to be in wayward spouses that are showing little or no remorse and looking to blame shift. I also think more of those initial threads are predominantly woman too, by some distance 

I think if you look at those kind of threads in CWI over the last few months you'll see that.
Those are what my "personal observations are" 

Yes it is my view and unless I see evidence for the the opposite of course I'll hold that view

That "pal" does not also mean I am insisting upon being right does it ? No, it is an opinion based on what I have seen recently. 

It is a discussion point about the different characters of the different sexes and for me in this aspect men and woman are different 

It should not be enough to upset or offend anybody


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vega said:


> Sorry Headspin, but I've seen it here at CWI and on other forums as well. I've seen it from both men AND women, although MOST of the time I dont' see the added, "...because I'm a woman" or "...because I'm a man".
> 
> Both genders DO often site, "I need(ed) attention and I wasn't getting it".
> 
> Vega


Fair enough, it is after all a discussion - a forum for different points of view


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Fair enough, it is after all a discussion - a forum for different points of view


As a suggestion...

Check out some other forums regarding infidelity. I have one in mind, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post regarding other forums on CWI. The one I have in mind actually has a "Wayward" Section where predominantly WS's post. Both male and female WS's. 

MOST of them describe their desire for _attention_, so it's definitely not just a 'female' thing.

Also, you'll probably see that MOST relationship forums have an unequal ratio of men-to-women, simply because of the nature of the subject. If there was a forum to discuss car racing, you'd probably find the forum stocked with mostly men. 

A lot of men don't want to discuss their relationship problems. 

Vega


----------



## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well no, actually men do not do this in the same way
> 
> There is a perception that has been practiced for a 1000 years that a woman can this or that and come up with the "well (coy face) I'm a woman so"....
> 
> ...


I'm fine with a robust exchange of opinion but your words are phrased as declarative statements. In the quote of your own words give I don't see a single, "in my opinion..." or "I think..." but rather plain statements as if fact: "Men do not use that in the same way , definitely not." We'll, says you and that and a couple bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.

There may be some legitimacy in what you suggest but I find the way you say it detracts from your arguments. How something is said can be as important as what is said. I'm not upset, just tired reading what sounds to me like a rant. Continue as you prefer but I think your points are lost in what to me is noisy stridency.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Vega said:


> Being a woman, I have heard the REVERSE more times: I've heard, "...because I'm a MAN" more times from MEN than I have heard, "...because I'm a WOMAN".


Life is strange isn't it? 

I'm a woman too and I've heard exactly the opposite to what you've heard. I hear all the time,"....because I'm a WOMAN" way more than I hear its opposite. 

So I have to disagree with you and agree with Headspin on this one. 

Maybe we ALL only see and hear what suits our purposes and personal beliefs.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Brilliant post Wiseforit.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Headspin said:


> My observation is that I think woman use this far more than men and I have seen it often on this board and it tends to be in wayward spouses that are showing little or no remorse and looking to blame shift. I also think more of those initial threads are predominantly woman too, by some distance


I agree. It's what my observation is also.


However, I believe it is because of this....



Vega said:


> A lot of men don't want to discuss their relationship problems.
> Vega


Why is this? Why are men (in general) so reluctant to discuss their relationship problems in any real depth?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Maneo said:


> I'm fine with a robust exchange of opinion but your words are phrased as declarative statements. In the quote of your own words give I don't see a single, "in my opinion..." or "I think..." but rather plain statements as if fact: "Men do not use that in the same way , definitely not." We'll, says you and that and a couple bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.
> 
> There may be some legitimacy in what you suggest but I find the way you say it detracts from your arguments. How something is said can be as important as what is said. I'm not upset, just tired reading what sounds to me like a rant. Continue as you prefer but I think your points are lost in what to me is noisy stridency.


For gods sake grow up - it's just an opinion on a difference I perceive between 
men and woman and one that in a growing amount of threads on here seems to give some woman a kind of validation in their excuses to commit adultery

Its an opinion and without even bothering to check I reckon I must have said "in my opinion" a few times in this thread. I have not said "this is the new law" "this is how it is from now on set in stone for all humanity"...jesus wept 

Some people. 

If you don't agree, you don't agree .....so what. What's the big deal.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I agree. It's what my observation is also.
> 
> 
> However, I believe it is because of this....
> ...


From what I understand (have read, have heard from therapists etc.) men like to solve their own problems. They like to be independent. They like to believe that they have 'everything under control'...

In other words, EGO.


Supposedly.

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Life is strange isn't it?
> 
> I'm a woman too and I've heard exactly the opposite to what you've heard. I hear all the time,"....because I'm a WOMAN" way more than I hear its opposite.
> 
> ...


Sure. I think it's possible. But not the ONLY possibility. 

I hung out with a lot of boys/men because I was into sports. Most of my girlfriends were not. So, I got treated as 'one of the guys' quite a bit. I got to hear about their complaints about women, etc. 

I heard my male friends use this excuse. I heard the excuse from MOST of my boyfriends. I heard it from BOTH of my husband's. I've heard men say it about other men who they know who have cheated. ("Well, he's a guy so,...you know guys. They like variety, have 'needs'", blah, blah, blah)

I've had 2 women friends who have cheated (they confessed well after their affairs were over, and they both remained with their husbands). Neither one of them used that excuse. 

I'm certain that women use the excuse. It's just not *my* experience to have heard it from a woman who I know. But just because it isn't *my* experience doesn't mean that it isn't someone else's. 

And likewise, for Headspin. Just because he may not have heard it from other men doesn't mean that other men have NEVER said this to a woman, or that it's "rare" for them to do so.

What I'm looking for is 'equal time' on this!

Vega


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Vega said:


> From what I understand (have read, have heard from therapists etc.) men like to solve their own problems. They like to be independent. They like to believe that they have 'everything under control'...
> 
> In other words, EGO.
> 
> ...


and women ? (genuine question)


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> and women ? (genuine question)


*sigh*. Again, from what I've *heard*, women (in general) tend to be more open about their problems. They're usually the one's to suggest counseling in a marriage. 

Just look at the ratio of men to women on TAM, lol! 

But that doesn't mean that women (in general) *don't* like to solve their own problems, or feel 'independent'. 

Vega


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

For the men who blame their SO's cheating on feminism, you're being played, plain & simple.
It's an excuse, a poorly used one, but still an excuse.
The reason that you or even your SO is using feminism is because it CAN'T be disproven, it's an easy scapegoat. 
BUT, let's be honest, your SO cheated for one reason & one reason only, they were/are selfish, & they wanted to do it, end of story.
It's selfishness plain & simple for the reason why people cheat, it's easier to cheat than it is to "solve" the marital issues these people imagine they have. 
This goes for cheating men & women. 
"Oh, my SO doesn't bring me flowers or (insert any other slight), that means they don't love me, I must go screw someone else in order to FEEL IMPORTANT, because only my feelings matter!"
You can blame anything or anyone else, but it won't be the truth, because as we know, most people won't do anything they don't already want to do.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Maneo said:


> That doesn't disprove your theses but it does indicate it does not apply to all women.


No, just the cheating ones.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Yet another ws thread makes me ask this in a new thread so as not to derail the other one
> 
> "he should have given me more attention.."
> 
> ...


Nailed it, btw. This was my stbxw's reasoning. It's sickening.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Um hmm. As a fWW, I can tell you without a doubt the phrase "I deserve attention because I'm a woman" or any variation thereof never fell from my lips. It never even came to mind. 

Why would I "deserve" attention because of my uterus? That makes no sense.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Labcoat said:


> Any man who says he cheated on his wife because his "emotional needs weren't being met" is either lying or has a testosterone deficiency. Anecdotally, the couple of guys who I know who have cheated on there wives or girlfriend have owned their sleaziness and now make it clear that they simply aren't relationship material. I can respect that, a weird way.
> 
> But what we have in the modern wayward woman is a complete inability to accept agency for their scumbaggery. Generally speaking, of course. Anecdotally again, I ran into a friend of my xWF who was sympathetic and happy to hear how my life was going. But when the subject of my ex's infidelity came up she said something to the effect of "well, you guys had other problems in the relationship."
> 
> ...


This post made me laugh AND trigger.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> BUT, let's be honest, your SO cheated for one reason & one reason only, they were/are selfish, & they wanted to do it, end of story.
> It's selfishness plain & simple for the reason why people cheat, it's easier to cheat than it is to "solve" the marital issues these people imagine they have.


False dichotomy. 

Being selfish is not a sufficient condition for cheating. It is a necessary condition. Being emotionally empty, abused or whatever else is also not a sufficient condition, I agree.

But you cannot dismiss how important these precursors are to cheating. If you neglect your wife's emotional needs, she is going to be vulnerable to some other creep who exploits that to get down her pants. It will be selfishness that allows her to do it, but without the emotional deficit she is nowhere near as susceptible to it. 

There are plenty of men on this forum that came to feel they were only a wallet, they were not getting their physical and emotional needs met, and they fell into affairs instead of doing the right thing and divorcing.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> You are getting very very close to justifying infidelity. I feel it in my gut. I don't think you mean to go there. There is no excuse for cheating; none. I was treated poorly many times in relationships and I did not cheat. It was harder the hornier I was as in my first marriage. I still, did not cheat.


Rubbish. I said exactly the same thing - no justification. 

This is a transparent manipulative tactic on your part to give yourself a standing ovation for not cheating, based on the false premise that I would tell you to cheat on your wife. 

You don't get any applause. So what. You think not cheating is an impressive accomplishment? That was your duty. So don't pretend you did something heroic, or that you overcame my urging to be a cheater.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> False dichotomy.
> 
> Being selfish is not a sufficient condition for cheating. It is a necessary condition. Being emotionally empty, abused or whatever else is also not a sufficient condition, I agree.
> 
> ...


I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, because no matter what someone says was their "motivation" to cheat, it always comes down to one thing & one thing ONLY, they CHOSE to cheat, which is by definition selfishness.
No one held a gun to their head, no one forced them to cheat, they quite willingly did it themselves. 
It's a choice to cheat, plain & simple, that is 100% the truth. 
It's a cop out to try to put the blame on anything else. 
Besides, there are more than enough cheaters who are nowhere near being emotionally unstable or deficit, they cheat because it's what they want to do. 

Whether it's a man or a woman, I put the full responsibility to chose to cheat on the cheater.
It's a choice, a badly thought out choice, but a choice still the same.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Headspin said:


> You see there's the point it's touchy subject.
> 
> I'm the same I just feel somewhere in the current social world there is a kind of 'vibe' that is hinting at "yeah I can do that" (eyes a flutter) -"because I'm a woman" and sure, as a man I've often been entranced with that cheekiness but I sense it's kinda moved up a notch - now it's "I need attention you're a man you should be paying me more attention " - "why" ?
> 
> ...


Men as women cheat at almost the same rate, with men cheating a couple of percentage points higher than men.

I'm perplexed why you think that women cheating is worse than men cheating.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> "I'll tell him my mother is visiting," she replied without any hesitation.
> 
> Later when I thought about it I was dumbfounded. It was so easy for her to reflexively come up with a little lie. She was not an immoral or flighty person. She was extremely responsible. I think she accepted the idea that infidelity was not so bad in part because her father cheated on her mother and her mother stayed in the relationship. I am sure that she considered cheating immoral if you loved your spouse or partner.
> 
> Almost all people lie. It is part of being diplomatic at times. Women are generally more diplomatic than men and hence are better liars.


You give one example and use it to describe all women.

Using the same type of argument, I know a man who has cheated on his wife so many times that it seems to be his hobby.

When his wife calls and he’s with some other woman, he has a lie for her every time that sounds very genuine and plausible. Things just like that “My mom I here.”, “I’m with John (john being a life-long friend.)” and so forth. I’ve heard him tell his wife these things while the OW was siting right there next to him.

So I guess this proves that men are diplomatic and hence very good liars, better liars than woman since through history society has generally ignored men cheating on their wives… while punishing severely any married women who cheated.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Phenix70 said:


> I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, because no matter what someone says was their "motivation" to cheat, it always comes down to one thing & one thing ONLY, they CHOSE to cheat, which is by definition selfishness.
> No one held a gun to their head, no one forced them to cheat, they quite willingly did it themselves.
> It's a choice to cheat, plain & simple, that is 100% the truth.
> It's a cop out to try to put the blame on anything else.


There was a man who posted here whose wife cheated. He went on about how he loves her and wants her back. Of course, now people started out by sympathizing with him. She’s a selfish person who chose to cheat.

But this guy kept on talking. He posted about how he had abused her. She tried to leave. He chased her down, hit her with his car and run over her leg breaking it. Then he got her home and kept her in bed, not letting her get any help while her broken leg healed. He told her that he’d kill her if she told anyone when she returned to work. Well they noticed that there she could not walk right. She worked in a hospital they sorta forced her to be examined. She ended up needing surgery. 

Through all of this abuse she fell for a guy she met, had an affair and gained the emotional strength to leave her seriously abusive husband.

By the time this man got done telling the story of the abuse he had heaped upon his wife, there was no one TAM poster who felt that her cheating was wrong. Everyone told him that they were glad she found her strength even if it took a affair to find it.

Many times a person, male or female, is so eomtioanlly abused by their spuse that finding another person who lvoes them and validates them is the only way they can find the strength to leave their abusive spouse.

I have no sympathy for a person who serjiously neglects and/or abuses their spouse. I could care less if their spouse decides to cheat. If this is what the neglected/abuse spouse needs to re-gain their emotiona strength and leave a bad marriage, then so be it. I don’t feel it’s my place to judge the pain a person is going through or how they find the strength to get out of a horrible situation.


Phenix70 said:


> Besides, there are more than enough cheaters who are nowhere near being emotionally unstable or deficit, they cheat because it's what they want to do.


Sure, a good number of cheaters cheat out of pure selfishness and disrespect of their spouse. But that does not negate the fact that there exists real neglect and abuse in some marriages… to the point that one of the spouse is beat down (emotionally and sometimes physically) to the point of not being able to leave without something catagrophic, like an affair, brinbing them back to a point of self-worth that they have the strength to leave the marriage.
I am not one who believes that all BS’s are saints who were wronged and all WS are selfish SOB’s.


Phenix70 said:


> Whether it's a man or a woman, I put the full responsibility to chose to cheat on the cheater.
> It's a choice, a badly thought out choice, but a choice still the same.


Yes, cheating is a choice. But a person can drive their spouse to do things like cheat through gross abuse and neglect.

It’s not a popular opinion on TAM. But I’ve seen situations in real life in which I completely understand why the person cheated. And I have/had no sympathy for the BS because they neglected and/or abused their spouse.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

I am a woman and was extremely emotionally neglected for the last 11 years. Guess what ? I NEVER cheated, but you bet your ass he did!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NeverMore said:


> I am a woman and was extremely emotionally neglected for the last 11 years. Guess what ? I NEVER cheated, but you bet your ass he did!


Yep, same thing with me in my marriages.... twice.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It’s not a popular opinion on TAM. But I’ve seen situations in real life in which I completely understand why the person cheated. And I have/had no sympathy for the BS because they neglected and/or abused their spouse.


Yep, there are only a few ways I understand, not accept, as to why a person will cheat. Certain types of Abuse are one.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> There was a man who posted here whose wife cheated. He went on about how he loves her and wants her back. Of course, now people started out by sympathizing with him. She’s a selfish person who chose to cheat.
> 
> But this guy kept on talking. He posted about how he had abused her. She tried to leave. He chased her down, hit her with his car and run over her leg breaking it. Then he got her home and kept her in bed, not letting her get any help while her broken leg healed. He told her that he’d kill her if she told anyone when she returned to work. Well they noticed that there she could not walk right. She worked in a hospital they sorta forced her to be examined. She ended up needing surgery.
> 
> ...


If someone has to cheat in order to leave an abusive relationship, it does make me wonder why it takes another person to do that.
Here's the reason, no one else can make you happy or feel anything that you can't feel for yourself.
Why not find the strength inside of yourself to remove yourself from the situation?
I suppose I question the validity of using another person to get out of an abusive relationship, what if the person is just trading one type of bad relationship for another?
The person could very well not have the emotional health & well being to distinguish one from the other, but is instead just looking for a way out, instead of finding their own way.
I guess if one can find the strength to cheat, should they not instead use that strength to just leave?
Is not the affair more dangerous to have while in a relationship with an abuser?


----------



## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I'd say it's fairly heroic after reading all the batrayals from all over the internet. I think it IS something to boast about.


See? You just confirmed EXACTLY what I said. You think not cheating makes you a hero. 

And the way you tried to earn your applause was by _lying_: pretending I promote cheating. 

*Phoenix70* You didn't take logic, obviously. Everyone knows the cheater is responsible. You are saying nothing that anyone disagrees with there. 

All you are doing is peddling the foolish and frankly stupid belief that your behavior can be as atrocious and irresponsible as you want, and expect to never be cheated on. 

Personally, my cheating wife had a number of factors that mattered. One of the more important ones was being thousands of miles from friends and family. It's a lot easier when nobody knows you, your husband isn't there - nobody to blow the whistle. That doesn't mean I excused her. I divorced her. 

That is how silly these misrepresentations are. If I was justifying it I wouldn't have divorced her.


----------



## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> See? You just confirmed EXACTLY what I said. You think not cheating makes you a hero.
> 
> And the way you tried to earn your applause was by _lying_: pretending I promote cheating.
> 
> ...


Actually I'm not, I expect adults to act like adults.
If I was to do something, or act in a way that put my H off, I expect him to tell me, not go get his d*ck wet in some strange.
In the same regard, if my H was to do something that put me off, I would tell him, not seek out another man to cheat with.
It's really that easy, I would much rather fix whatever issues we have, than go find some dude to cheat with.

I'm not buying it about the distance your wife was away from her friends & family.
I too live thousands of miles from family & friends, my H is gone for months, sometimes over a year at a time & NEVER once have I ever wanted to cheat.
So yeah, I'm not buying whatever it is you're trying to sell. 
Not everyone in your situation choses to cheat.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> False dichotomy.
> 
> Being selfish is not a sufficient condition for cheating. It is a necessary condition. Being emotionally empty, abused or whatever else is also not a sufficient condition, I agree.
> 
> ...


I had every intention of avoiding this thread, as I am fairly certain that I am one of the FWS's that this thread is referring to. I say that simply because I am one of a few FWS's who have stuck around the CWI forum on TAM for the long haul. My husband and I are 15 months into our reconciliation after my 15 month EA/PA and we are doing remarkably well, despite what the statistics and the naysayers of TAM predicted when we first began posting our story here in June, 2012.

I want to add that (although, I often do not agree with the comments made by _Wiserforit_,) I believe this statement is spot on. I, particularly, identify with the parts I bolded, including the part about selfishness allowing the WS to do it. I'm, also, going to add that if your spouse's physical and emotional needs are continuously being left unmet, (the needs that should be met by only you, their spouse) despite your spouse's efforts to improve themselves and the marriage (because, believe it or not, some future WS's did indeed communicate their unhappiness to their partners prior to their infidelity, only to be brushed aside, ignored, and neglected some more) that you are indeed responsible for leaving them in a vulnerable position. Often, prior to the infidelity, the BS was either content with the way things were or they had become too complacent in the relationship and chose not to invest the time, energy and effort that would have been required to repair the damaged (but, as yet, not destroyed relationship.) At that point, it becomes much easier for the, struggling and unhappy, future WS to "justify," at least from their POV, becoming selfish in order to get their needs met. Simply put, if one spouse refuses to put in the effort that is necessary to meet the very basic needs of the other for companionship and intimacy, then the neglected spouse will either continue to suffer alone, eventually becoming very angry, bitter and resentful, or they'll get a divorce, or they will selfishly go outside of their marriage to get at least some of those needs met, elsewhere. Is that selfish? Yes, according to the definition, absolutely. Was the betrayed spouse selfish when they refused to acknowledge their WS spouse's needs prior to the infidelity? Yes, absolutely. The WS could/should have divorced before cheating. The BS could/should have divorced when they decided that meeting the needs of their spouse was not worth their effort. Blame-shifting goes both ways. So does accountability, ownership and making amends. 

According to the powers that be on TAM, divorce is ALWAYS the honorable solution to an irreconcilable marriage. For a variety of reasons, divorce can be an extremely unrealistic option for some marriages. For those individuals who have never lived that close to that edge that can be a difficult concept to understand. If you can't wrap your brain around that then you are more fortunate than you realize. In fact, in marriages like this, it is easier for the complacent spouse to remain unconcerned with change. Still, as a FWS, I do understand that cheating is ALWAYS a selfish choice...... perhaps, the most selfish choice that one can make within a marriage. But, in a case scenario like the one I described, there was plenty of selfishness to go around.

******


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, same thing with me in my marriages.... twice.


*Yep, Ele! Look like we've both been very good at attracting the cheating element in our lives. Something that I would have never even entertained in my wildest fantasies!*


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Men as women cheat at almost the same rate, with men cheating a couple of percentage points higher than men.
> 
> I'm perplexed why you think that women cheating is worse than men cheating.


Uuurgh.....this can get ridiculous on here it really can 

perplexed at what ?

I have not said anywhere that woman cheating is worse than men. Where?? 

Fksakes

What I have said is that I have noticed in a a growing number of threads over the last few months that woman will use the "I didn't get enough 'attention'" and have used that as an excuse for their decision to cheat 

For me it goes hand in hand with this mysterious coy and cute "I am a woman so..." that woman use in a flirtatious and alluring way

"I can do that slightly naughty 'wrong' thing - "why?" "Well because I'm a woman and I can"

Now actually having thought more about this if any woman on here is denying the existence of such a thing then they are lying - end of story. Woman the world over for god knows how many years have used this 'feminine whiles, feminine charm, (call it whatever you want) to mask all manner of good or illicit behaviors. 

It's there - it's part of what being a woman is. 

I'll quickly add before you all get your nickers in a twist that it is often the thing that is very attractive to a man and a man is happy to be manipulated by - it can be part of the very characteristic that a man can fall in love with 

Now for a start all you woman in this thread stop bloodywell denying it. You do it, all of you at some point in time . 

My point is however that the wayward spouse can and will use it for her reasons to cheat. I have noticed this and I have commented upon it 

"Men do the same they use the same reason"

NOPE - THEY DON'T. not to the same extent. Absolute rubbish - we may use other excuses but not so often that one 
___

IN MY OPINION


----------



## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Uuurgh.....this can get ridiculous on here it really can
> 
> perplexed at what ?
> 
> ...


Oh Good God, when I see women do that, I laugh at that ridiculous & quite simply, trite behavior.
I have NEVER, ever in my life, remotely ever acted in that fashion & it's actually insulting to our gender when women do that.
It's that behavior that is used against us, because it renders us less than. 
Please, I have more to offer the world than my vagina.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> I had every intention of avoiding this thread, as I am fairly certain that I am one of the FWS's that this thread is referring to.....


No you're wrong. 

Until I came back into this 20 minutes ago I had not thought of any person concerning this thread at all for one second 

I've noticed in recent months more and more threads made more by woman about cheating and the phrase "he didn't give me enough attention so ..." seems to crop up 

So I made a thread commenting about that. I had no specific person in mind just that I had generally noticed this 

I have not even read your original thread so I have no opinion on your situation although you have made precis about your situation in other threads. I have no axe to grind with you about anything. 

In fact I avoid contesting any post you make as it ends up with me getting banned for some ridiculous 'not showing enough respect towards a former wayward spouse' nonsense reason, so no you are completely wrong about my intentions in this. 

I think we'll leave it there or I'll probably get banned for some other spurious reason again.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Perhaps what makes cheating "so bad" is that it _*IS*_ a *choice*! While some people believe that they can instantly 'fall in love' upon meeting someone for the first time (which is RARE), it doesn't mean they _HAVE_ to act on it! 

If someone steals food because they haven't eaten in a week, I would be more inclined to forgive the 'thief' because his/her life was in _danger_. 

If someone lies in order to protect another person from being physically harmed, I'd also probably forgive the liar. 

But I would be _less_ inclined to forgive a cheater because the cheater has _other options _that are available besides cheating. Cheating has nothing to do with preserving life. Whatever exception--if any-- there may be out there is _rare_. 

Vega


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> Oh Good God, when I see women do that, I laugh at that ridiculous & quite simply, trite behavior.
> I have NEVER, ever in my life, remotely ever acted in that fashion & it's actually insulting to our gender when women do that.
> It's that behavior that is used against us, because it renders us less than.
> Please, I have more to offer the world than my vagina.


No doubt you haven't but an awful lot do. 

I know women who are armed to the teeth with it and use it in every aspect of their life to get what they want.

You've described it well though 'trite' is a good word for it and I often laugh at it, much more these days than ever before


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think women are following the male script in this and many other things. It is not suprising, Women are not so much different than men. The assuption that women don't have the capacity to cheat was true in the past because they did not have the opportunity. 

With birth control and employment outside of the home, there is ample opportunity for women to cheat. Men say they need variety but women may get bored too. 

Male and female cheating may be a good thing in a sense. Both men and women may think twice before going outside of their marriage. 

Both know they are as likely to experience pain and heartbreak as are their partner. . It is easier to control temptation when there are serious consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I think women following the male script in this and many other things. It is not suprising, Women are not so much different than men. The assuption that women don't have the capacity to cheat was true in the past because they did not have the opportunity. With birth control and employment outside of the home, there is ample opportunity for women to cheat. Men say they need variety but women may get bored too.
> 
> Male and female cheating may be a good thing in a sense. Both men and women may think twice before going outside of their marriage. *Both know they are as likely to experience pain and heartbreak as are their partner.* . It is easier to control temptation when there are serious consequences.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*My STBXW cheated and still doesn't think that I even know one syllable about it. But I'll bet the farm that she hasn't, to date, even felt one iota of remorse in her soul. 

Judging, at least, from the settlement demands that I've received from her lately!*


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *My STBXW cheated and still doesn't think that I even know one syllable about it. .......!*


Christ, really?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Christ, really?


My attorney advocates staying quiet about it until we reach final settlement time, blindsiding both her and her attorney!

After the D, then I'll release all of the irrefutable records over to certain of her family members!


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Headspin said:


> No you're wrong.
> 
> Until I came back into this 20 minutes ago I had not thought of any person concerning this thread at all for one second
> 
> ...


I want you to know that you didn't get banned because I reported anything based upon our exchanges in other threads. I know that you and I have had some heated debates in CWI, but I truly do respect everyone's right to their own opinion on a forum like TAM. If you've been banned (and I know you have because I've seen it) as a result of some of those exchanges, it wasn't because I reported you or because anyone that I am aware of reported you on my behalf....... FWIW. 

I've stated, many times, that B1 and I, both, credit TAM with the ongoing success of our reconciliation. It has been a resource that has provided us with more tools, information and support than even our MC and IC has provided.

Although we may not appear to see eye-to-eye on very much regarding infidelity, I'm not on TAM to advance a pro WS agenda. I'm here because I, foolishly, chose infidelity as a means of coping with what was, then, an incredibly broken, dysfunctional and unhappy marriage. At the time, I was in an extremely low place in my life and lacked any of the resources and tools necessary to cope with my unhappiness regarding my marriage and the myriad of other things in my life that nearly drove me to suicide. It was the unconditional love that I have for my five precious children, (whom I have been accused of not loving by certain TAMers..... based solely on the fact that I had an affair) that kept me alive on my darkest days. It was the helplessness and hopelessness that I felt in my life that allowed me to do something that had previously been unthinkable to me. I was literally trying to scrounge up some measure of happiness in whatever form I could find so that I had the motivation to get up each day, put one foot in front of the other and keep going. Until or unless you've known that kind of desperation, you can't possibly understand how debilitating it can be. 

When I read your posts, I see that same kind of pain. I've read many of your posts. Your (ex)wife sounds like a truly narcissistic, selfish, evil *****. I cannot fathom doing some of the things that she has said and done to you, your children, the BS's of her OM's and their children. I simply cannot fathom it. It isn't in me. Not every FWS is like your WS. Some of us realize the horrific destruction that our choices have heaped upon our loved ones and we are seeking ways to heal. We need to work on healing ourselves so that we might, also, assist in helping our loved ones in healing. So, when we find a place like TAM it does no good for us or our families if we are beat down further than we already were when we got here. Yes, some of us arrive still "in the fog," I know I did. But, honestly, the sooner a BS or a WS arrives, the sooner they can find help. But, if they are run off first, they can't be helped. 

I do wish you and your children nothing but continued healing, health and happiness. 

Take care,
~EI


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> My attorney advocates staying quiet about it until we reach final settlement time, blindsiding both her and her attorney!
> 
> *After the D, then I'll release all of the irrefutable records over to certain of her family members![/*QUOTE]
> 
> :smthumbup::yay::smnotworthy:


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Male and female cheating may be a good thing in a sense. *Both men and women may think twice before going outside of their marriage. Both know they are as likely to experience pain and heartbreak as are their partner*. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Loved your post, Catherine. What I've bolded is what we call _empathy_. Unfortunately, one can only have empathy if one is willing to consider how THEY would feel if their partner cheated on THEM, and then took appropriate measures. 

Cheaters don't usually _think_ (about their partner, children, friends, job, etc.)before they act. They're too busy _justifying_ their selfish desires so they can get "more"...

Vega


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Maneo said:


> I don't know what forum posts you've been reading pal or what your personal observations are, but I've seen guys use the same type of excuse for their infidelity. My experience and observation is that women don't have the monopoly on that market. I don't expect you to change your view but don't insist your reality on the rest of us.


Many men rationalize their stepping out of the marriage for "attention" because they feel neglected (Not getting enough attention from their wives because the kids get it all )

Happens every day


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

EI said:


> I'm, also, going to add that if your spouse's physical and emotional needs are continuously being left unmet, (the needs that should be met by only you, their spouse) despite your spouse's efforts to improve themselves and the marriage (because, believe it or not, some future WS's did indeed communicate their unhappiness to their partners prior to their infidelity, only to be brushed aside, ignored, and neglected some more) that you are indeed responsible for leaving them in a vulnerable position.


It is pretty obvious why these extremely unreasonable posts are being made refusing to acknowledge this: what they are doing is excusing their own negligent behavior. 

You see the same thing in people that refuse to acknowledge that being a street prostitute is high risk behavior for STD's, robbery, rape, and even murder.

The instant you point to how someone should not voluntarily engage in street prostitution for these reasons, you get shaming and guilt-tripping from the obstinate, pretending you are justifying the rapist or murderer.

It won't matter how many times you say that the murderer isn't justified. Because what these people are interested in doing is silencing your correct observations about the dangers of high risk behavior, and that you have the responsibility to stay away from high risk behavior.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Phenix70 said:


> If someone has to cheat in order to leave an abusive relationship, it does make me wonder why it takes another person to do that.
> 
> Here's the reason, no one else can make you happy or feel anything that you can't feel for yourself.
> 
> ...


Humans are flawed by nature. It’s easy to sit outside and judge another person. 

It’s easy to say that there is another path they could have, should have taken. But cheating on a spouse who is seriously abusive does not make the cheater a worse person then their abuser. Generally on TAM, cheating that occurs basically as a response to a lot of abuse is treated as somehow worse then the abuse and some how as though it negates the abuse. I don’t see it that way. 

My point is that not all BS are poor victims and not all WS are evil, selfish people. On TAM there seems to be no acknowledgement of this.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you Vega. My father cheated on my mother from yr 2 of their marriage until he died. My mother had no skills and remained in the marriage for her 4 kids. 

She is a beautiful woman but was very depressed during our childhood. I think that if my father thought she would cheat and leave him, he would have controlled himself. 

I am certainly not an advocate of cheating. However, its human nature to rationalize bad behavior if it brings pleasure with no personal pain. 

Hard wired variety seeking is difficult for men to support if it appears women are similarly wired. If its excusable for men then it is for women as well. 

The pleasure carries a considerable risk of great pain. The human brain, being plastic in nature, rewires to avoid pain. That happens to men and woman. 

Amazing right, social evolution. We have evolved into a more complex society and children need the presence of two parents for extended periods to create a stable home. Even grandchildren need the stability of an extended family now. 

Seed spreading is no longer a viable method of creating well adapted progeny. Evolutionary pressure goes towards the survivability of a vigorous next generation not the frivolous attention and pleasure seeking of the parents.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Phenix70 said:


> Oh Good God, when I see women do that, I laugh at that ridiculous & quite simply, trite behavior.
> 
> *I have NEVER, ever in my life, remotely ever acted in that fashion & it's actually insulting to our gender when women do that.*
> It's that behavior that is used against us, because it renders us less than.
> ...


According to the OP you are lying. He says that you do this and if you deny it you are lying. "



Headspin said:


> Now actually having thought more about this if any woman on here is denying the existence of such a thing then they are lying - end of story. Woman the world over for god knows how many years have used this 'feminine whiles, feminine charm, (call it whatever you want) to mask all manner of good or illicit behaviors.
> ...
> 
> *It's there - it's part of what being a woman is. *
> ...


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It’s easy to say that there is another path they could have, should have taken. But cheating on a spouse who is seriously abusive is not make them a worse person then their abuser. Generally on TAM, cheating that occurs basically as a response to a lot of abuse is treated as somehow worse then the abuse and some how as though it negates the abuse. I don’t see it that way.


The problem with cheating _and_ abuse is that there is no *universal* definition for BOTH of them. 

Most people believe that having intercourse with someone other than your spouse is DEFINITELY "cheating". But what about holding hands? What about even LOOKING at someone else in a 'lustful' manner? And, how does one KNOW that their spouse is looking at someone in a 'lustful' manner? If your wife smiles at the waiter, is she 'flirting' and therefore "cheating"? 

Same thing with abuse. Again, most people believe that physically punching your spouse in the mouth because she burned dinner is "abuse". But what about pushing your partner out of the way because she's blocking your ability to leave the room while she's yelling obscenities at you? You didn't knock her down, or throw her off balance, yet your behavior _CAN_ be considered "abusive" by _SOME_ people. And what about _verbal_ abuse? If you're in a heated argument with your partner and it 'slips' that you call your partner 'stupid', is that _grounds_ for picking apart ALL of your partner's behavior and LOOKING for other times that you can consider your partner to be 'abusive'? 

Sometimes we say things like, "Well, I FELT that my partner was putting me down and belittling me when he said blah, blah, blah." But would the majority of OTHER PEOPLE "feel" belittled if your partner said the same thing to THEM? Edited to add: "Feelings" are NOT facts! Just because we may 'feel' a certain way, doesn't mean that our perceptions are correct. They may be colored by our own dysfunctions and insecurities stemming from how we see the world

It seems that nowadays, if we "feel" 'abused', we're BEING abused. And if we "feel" that our partner 'cheated' on us by flirting with the waitress then our partner DEFINITELY cheated.

We can abuse the definition of abuse just as easily as we can abuse the definition of cheating. Plus, in this day and age, it seems that a LOT of people actually LOOK for reasons to be 'offended'.

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The betrayal of a marriage is different from the abuse. .


I few months ago I started a thread on CW titledI, "Is Cheating Abusive?" Most of the respondents say "YES!". 

Hmm...

Vega


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *My STBXW cheated and still doesn't think that I even know one syllable about it. But I'll bet the farm that she hasn't, to date, even felt one iota of remorse in her soul.
> 
> Judging, at least, from the settlement demands that I've received from her lately!*


I have not read your story but I bet she thinks she is going to live happily ever after? Just bide your time. I hate to criticize my own gender, we catch enough hell. But I have to say that some woman can be very foolish. 

Maybe some of us read too many fairy tales growing up and live in a perpetual never-never land. Well, when your wife lands on her azz, she'll be knocked out of paradise. 

Sorry for your pain. You have this to look forward to, your life will be looking up after you unload this foolish woman.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> The problem with cheating _and_ abuse is that there is no *universal* definition for BOTH of them.
> 
> Most people believe that having intercourse with someone other than your spouse is DEFINITELY "cheating". But what about holding hands? What about even LOOKING at someone else in a 'lustful' manner? And, how does one KNOW that their spouse is looking at someone in a 'lustful' manner? If your wife smiles at the waiter, is she 'flirting' and therefore "cheating"?
> 
> ...


This is why I ask people questions when they come here. If someone says that their spouse abuses them. I ask for examples. 

If a woman responds with examples of him knocking her across the room pretty often, then it's pretty clear. If he says that his wife regularly pulls a gun or knife on him and their toddler aged children, that's abuse. I've known people who have had both of these things happen to them.

Just because some people will exaggerate claims of abuse, mistreatment and neglect, it does not mean that there are not situations in which these things occur.

Good grief. Like I said, no it's not accepted around here to say anything that is even slightly suggesting that a BS might not be a victim but instead to original offender in the marriage.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Did I respond in that?
> 
> Umm...I'm not sure...





> Abuse as I know it is anything a partner in an intimate relationship does to try and control the other.
> 
> Edit: If that betrayal is used as a way to control the other person, it is abuse by my definition


Unfortunately, anyone can say that *anything they don't like their partner doing* is 'controlling'. 

When we are in an intimate relationship, we are supposed to allow SOME amount of 'influence' from our partner. But how much is "some'? How much is "healthy"? 

But so many people seem to see ANY amount of influence is TOO much. 

And if that's the truth, then we shouldn't even BE in a relationship...

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> *This is why I ask people questions when they come here. *If someone says that their spouse abuses them. I ask for examples.


I agree. I was on several 'abuse' boards for many years, and I was shocked at the amount of people who came on the boards and were very vague about the alleged ongoing abuse. Yet the board members would rally around the newbie offering words of wisdom and comfort without knowing the whole story. 

If I asked for a few more details, I was looked at like I was "starting trouble" and "*invalidating* her experience". I have since left those boards. Can no longer deal with people who refuse to look at their own beliefs/behaviors before judging others in such a negative light. 



> Good grief. Like I said, no it's not accepted around here to say anything that is even slightly suggesting that a BS might not be a victim but instead to original offender in the marriage


All in all, I DO agree with you Ele. The reason I posted the thread in the first place, was because I was trying to figure out how the dynamic of marriage could either help OR hinder progress if BOTH people were seen as 'abusive'. 

There's GOT to be a better way to deal with all of this crap! 

Perhaps we really do need a *Second Coming *of Jesus?!

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Vega,
> 
> They (abuse and infidelity)would have to be worked on as two different issues. One is a need to control. The other is poor boundaries and a lack of empathy which led to infidelity. Sh!t, maybe they are both due to a lack of empathy? Thanks for the headache. LOL
> 
> I still believe control to be the main reason for the abuse. It seems it is inherent to it.


LOL! Sorry to contribute to your headache *hands 2ntnuf some REALLY 'GOOD' pain pills...*

I DO believe that both abuse AND infidelity have the element of the lack of empathy AND selfishness. I think selfishness (and too much EGO) is the 'root' of _both_ problems. 

And unfortunately...again...we can see times where infidelity CAN be used as a means to 'control' our partner's behavior. e.g. "_If you don't do what I want, I'll cheat again_...."

The whole mess just SUX!

Vega


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Vega,
> I still believe control to be the main reason for the abuse. It seems it is inherent to it.


....and the only one to identify true control is the person being "abused".

Because one person's idea of control is not necessarily someone else's.

The trouble with though is that the person being 'abused' could be so emotionally shut down and withdrawn, so overwhelmed, with their life, that they cannot recognise control or sometimes even overt abuse.

This is what needs to be identified IMO, not wether or not "abuse" has occurred. 

I'm also not talking about situations of overt, physical abuse where safety and physical well being is on the line.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Vega,
> 
> I never posted in that. I just came from there. I didn't even read it this time. MattMatt's post seemed to reflect what I'm saying. "It can be."
> 
> ...


I do believe that by the time infidelity occurs, the WS has no empthy for the BS. They are at a point that they do not care. Thus it being a selfish decision.



2ntnuf said:


> I still believe control to be the main reason for the abuse. It seems it is inherent to it.


Everything I have ever about abuse says it’s used by the abuser to control the abused.

My personal experience is that the goal of abuse is control.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Sometimes the comment is legitimate. If a man is working 70 hours per week and comes up and just watches TV where is the marriage. At least in some situations of infidelity, some discussions of mutual fault is appropriate to save the marriage, instead of saying you will need to spend the next 1,000 days saying you wrong and understanding that I may need constant apologist and demonstrations of fault.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7;3873362
The trouble with though is that the person being 'abused' could be so emotionally shut down and withdrawn said:


> _YES_! This happens in two ways: Either they're being abused and they don't recognize it for what it is, or they've become so OVER SENSITIVE to ANY 'OFFENSE' that they 'feel' "abused" even if they aren't being abused.
> 
> Either way, they risk what could otherwise be a decent relationship, all because of their own skewed perspective.
> 
> ...


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> I agree. I was on several 'abuse' boards for many years, and I was shocked at the amount of people who came on the boards and were very vague about the alleged ongoing abuse. Yet the board members would rally around the newbie offering words of wisdom and comfort without knowing the whole story.


I’ve seen this on TAM for BSs every time. And I’ve seen it for people who come here and list the 1001 faults of their spouse. And then the majority of the posters just jump on the “throw the ho out” or “dump the jerk” band wagon.

Some people post on forums telling incomplete versions of their story to get sympathy and support. We’ve seen it often when the other spouse posts ‘the rest of the story’.



Vega said:


> If I asked for a few more details, I was looked at like I was "starting trouble" and "*invalidating* her experience". I have since left those boards. Can no longer deal with people who refuse to look at their own beliefs/behaviors before judging others in such a negative light.


Just as any different view of things here is met with a lot of negativity.



Vega said:


> I All in all, I DO agree with you Ele. The reason I posted the thread in the first place, was because I was trying to figure out how the dynamic of marriage could either help OR hinder progress if BOTH people were seen as 'abusive'.
> 
> There's GOT to be a better way to deal with all of this crap!
> 
> ...


Oh the human race needs something for sure. I just don’t think it’s happening any time soon.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> _YES_! This happens in two ways: Either they're being abused and they don't recognize it for what it is, or they've become so OVER SENSITIVE to ANY 'OFFENSE' that they 'feel' "abused" even if they aren't being abused.
> 
> Either way, they risk what could otherwise be a decent relationship, all because of their own skewed perspective.
> 
> ...


There are also cases in which the abuser (usually verbal/emotional abuser) paints themselves as the victim of abuse. This is something that I've seen far too often.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> There are also cases in which the abuser (usually verbal/emotional abuser) paints themselves as the victim of abuse. This is something that I've seen far too often.


Both ex's were MASTERS at doing this. "Playing the victim" I believe is what it's called. It's only when you start questioning them in depth (and hope they'll be honest when answering..) do we discover what the truth is. 

Both the abuser AND the cheater are master's of deception. Perhaps instead of dealing with 'cheating' and 'abuse' we should deal with 'deception' instead, since it seems to be 'necessary' to both cheat AND abuse...

Vega


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I agree with abuse and infidelity having elements of both a lack of empathy and an increased amount of selfishness. In a case like what you described, punching the wife in the face over dinner, is absurd to me. I can't understand how that is simply abuse.


It’s not “simply abuse”. That is called physical abuse and is the most dangerous form of abuse. Very often abusers who do not get the control they want through verbal and emotional abuse escalate to physical abuse.

“punch in the fact over dinner” reminds me of my son’s father. Now he did nto punch me over a dinner he did not like. Instead over time he complained about everything I cooked. Only he and his mother knew how to cook. Listening to him everything I cooked was terrible. (Not to brag but I’m actually a very very good cook.) In particular he would complain that a meal was dry because is had no sauce. Then if I cooked with a sauce he complained that sauses were slop and added uncessary calories, fat, etc to a meal. We’d sit down to dinner. He’d take a bit and complain. After a few bites he was screaming at me. Then after a few months of this he started throwing the dish and food at me. Now, in the food incidents, he never hit me. But I conciser screaming and throwing dishes and food at a person to be abuse. 

Keep in mind that I was not a SAHW/M. I was the sole financial support and primary care giver of our son while he was in medical school. IT was no more my “job” to cook him dinner than it was his “job’ to cook me dinner.

How did I handle it? At first I tried to discuss it. After a few times I just would ask him to stop. After he threw the dishes and food at me several times I told him I’d never cook for him again. It was 5 years before I cooked another mean for him. When I did start cooking again, he did not complain. He even complemented by cooking fairly often.

While I stopped the meal time throwing of food/dishes and yelling by refusing to participate in cooking and eating meals with him, he had lost more control by my refusing to cook. So he escalated to even harsher emotional/verbal abuse and eventually to physical abuse.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> When I came here, I felt attacked by the "what did you do to deserve it crowd". It was traumatic in itself. If I did do something wrong, I was berated and told what a loser I was. I already knew that.
> 
> I think since learning there are more than two sides to every truthful story, I have been inclined to realize that what I read has some truth and some falsehood. Not that anyone is lying. Truth is subjective and objective.
> 
> I've never told my complete story. I'd be crucified. I'd love to do it and get help and go over things I've read to understand them better. I just know many things will be attacked and my story would be mine. Oh, I'd love to do it, though.


I hear ya, 2ntnuf. Unfortunately, there will _always_ be people who have the "lynch mob" mentality; the ones who don't care to _seek_ the truth, but who merely want to feel powerful, by judging and condemning... as if they already 'know' the truth without asking any questions...WITH _compassion_. 

Vega


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> Both ex's were MASTERS at doing this. "Playing the victim" I believe is what it's called. It's only when you start questioning them in depth (and hope they'll be honest when answering..) do we discover what the truth is.
> 
> Both the abuser AND the cheater are master's of deception. Perhaps instead of dealing with 'cheating' and 'abuse' we should deal with 'deception' instead, since it seems to be 'necessary' to both cheat AND abuse...
> 
> Vega


I'm not sure that deception is necessary for abuse (emotional, verbal and physical). I'll have to think about that more.

How do you see deception as being the force behind abuse? 

I believe that control and anger are the forces behind abuse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> When I came here, I felt attacked by the "what did you do to deserve it crowd". It was traumatic in itself. If I did do something wrong, I was berated and told what a loser I was. I already knew that.
> 
> I think since learning there are more than two sides to every truthful story, I have been inclined to realize that what I read has some truth and some falsehood. Not that anyone is lying. Truth is subjective and objective.
> 
> I've never told my complete story. I'd be crucified. I'd love to do it and get help and go over things I've read to understand them better. I just know many things will be attacked and my story would be mine. Oh, I'd love to do it, though.


Now I'm one who would love to hear it all. Why? Because there is a lot to learn... what not to do and what to do.

I have also removed just about everything I post about my story(ies) because I have been attacked for it. For example because I have been married more than once there are those who have gone after me and tried to belittle me. You don't even have to do anything wrong/bad to have some group on the internet come out of the bits and bytes to attack.

I believe in forgiveness and redemption. Some people do learn from their mistakes. Smart people learn from the mistakes others make. Thus sharing should be encouraged and not used as the basis for attack.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Now I'm one who would love to hear it all. Why? Because there is a lot to learn... what not to do and what to do.


:iagree:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Long Term Screw Ups In Marriage??
> 
> LTSUIM
> 
> ...


Here are groups that can be formed on TAM. I think that they are membership by invitation.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> *How do you see deception as being the force behind abuse?*
> 
> I believe that control and anger are the forces behind abuse.


I don't see deception as being *the* force behind the abuse. I basically threw that out there to see what others thought about the possibility. But I do have my own 'theory', which I've mentioned on CWI before.

*IMHO*, I see the EGO as the 'root'. To me, ego encompasses all of the negative traits that people can have, such as selfishness, self-centeredness, conceit, vanity, greed, lust, impatience, etc. I see people as being born narcissistic, and how it's their upbringing (not ONLY their parents) that will determine how they will view themselves, view the world and live in society. If they are spoiled, they will come to see themselves as more or less 'special' and expect special treatment. If they are CONSTANTLY put down, they can also grow up to become narcissistic, and feel more 'deserving' of the love they never really received. 

As for the deception, that's also part of ego. People WANT to see themselves as 'better' than who they are. They will lie because they fear being seen as 'bad' or 'unworthy'. They may have made understandable age-appropriate mistakes in childhood, but were SHAMED for not doing 'better'. It can carry over to adulthood. If they're caught in a lie, they can either become severely depressed, not care or feel extremely embarrassed. The feeling of humility is _overwhelming_, almost too powerful for them to bear. 

Deception is common to cheating and abuse. They will both lie to people as well as to themselves. They can't bear the thought that they're not as 'deserving' as they want to believe. We often wonder WHY cheaters will re-write history with lies, and we've learned that it's to _justify_ their cheating. But deep down inside, they know that what they're saying isn't the truth. Up front, they hope that YOU don't know that what they're saying isn't the truth....

...and verbal/emotional abusers operate on the same 'principles'. They hope that they can convince you that either they are 'better' than who they really are, or that YOU are 'worse' than who YOU really are (hence, why many abusers accuse us of lying when we really aren't...)

When an abuser tells us that we're "stupid", "idiots", "lying", "cheaters", "b*tches", "c*nts", "lazy" etc. quite often they KNOW that we're not. And when a cheater tells us that we "weren't meeting his/her needs", in a way, they also know they're not. While there may be times when we WERN'T meeting their needs, they're hoping we will be convinced that what they're saying is a "good enough" reason to cheat. 

People who have well-developed self-esteem have control over their ego. People who have big ego's (and it's manifested by selfishness: abuse and cheating for example) have LOW self-esteem. People who have small ego's usually have HIGH self-esteem.

Abusers OVERCOMPENSATE for the powerlessness they may have felt in childhood. The feeling of powerlessness carries over to teens and adulthood. 

Cheater may also feel a sense of 'power' while cheating. A sense of being 'in control' of their own happiness, despite the occasional pangs of guilt they may feel. 

But both the cheater and the abuser are selfish; self-centered. Selfishness and self-centeredness are born out of an immature ego. 

Like I said, that's the thumbnail version of my own 'theory'. 

Let the crucifixion begin!

Vega


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I've never told my complete story. I'd be crucified. I'd love to do it and get help and go over things I've read to understand them better. I just know many things will be attacked and my story would be mine. Oh, I'd love to do it, though.


I'd love to hear it too, 2ntnuf. At my age (55) and with my OWN ska-ROO ups, I'm confident that your story probably isn't any worse than mine! 

Vega


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vega said:


> I don't see deception as being *the* force behind the abuse. I basically threw that out there to see what others thought about the possibility. But I do have my own 'theory', which I've mentioned on CWI before.
> 
> *IMHO*, I see the EGO as the 'root'. To me, ego encompasses all of the negative traits that people can have, such as selfishness, self-centeredness, conceit, vanity, greed, lust, impatience, etc.


You have a distorted view of “ego”. A lot of people do. There are popular spiritual movements that talk about “ego” only from a negative view point. But at it’s root of each person. It’s neither good nor bad. It just is. Now what people do with it can be good or bad.

*narcissism*
1.	a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.
"a boost to my ego"
synonyms:	self-esteem, self-importance, self-worth, self-respect, self-image, self-confidence 

*narcissistic*
1. the “I” or self of any person; a person as thinking, feeling, and willing, and distinguishing itself from the selves of others and from objects of its thought. 
2. Psychoanalysis . the part of the psychic apparatus that experiences and reacts to the outside world and thus mediates between the primitive drives of the id and the demands of the social and physical environment. 
3. egotism; conceit; self-importance: Her ego becomes more unbearable each day. 
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings: Your criticism wounded his ego. 
5. ( often initial capital letter ) Philosophy . 
a. the enduring and conscious element that knows experience. 
b. Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul. 




Vega said:


> I see people as being born narcissistic, and how it's their upbringing (not ONLY their parents) that will determine how they will view themselves, view the world and live in society. If they are spoiled, they will come to see themselves as more or less 'special' and expect special treatment. If they are CONSTANTLY put down, they can also grow up to become narcissistic, and feel more 'deserving' of the love they never really received.


Narcissism is a personality disorder. Babies se themselves as an extension, or not separate, from their primary care giver. This is completely different form narcissism. It’s about at age 2 that a child starts to realize that they are a separate human.. thus the unset of the terrible two’s. 

From all I’ve read and experienced, people who are abused as children do not all take the same direction in life. Some come out of it just fine. The fact that only 30% of abused children turn into abusers themselves shows that selfdetermination is huge in how a child ends up in life. Some turn out just fine. Some are so beaten down that their ego, or awareness of self worth is shattered. Some of those become life long victims of abuse because that ‘s all they know and all they think they are worth. Then there are the ones who turn into abusers. It’s a learned behavior. They learned that at home growing up the abuser is the one with the power. It’s the abuser who has the control and gets to create the reality of the family. And they use abuse to keep everyone in the family in line and following their view.nar•cis•sism


1.	self-admiration: excessive self-admiration and self-centeredness
2.	personality disorder: in psychiatry, a personality disorder characterized by the patient's overestimation of his or her own appearance and abilities and an excessive need for admiration.
Synonyms: vanity, self-love, self-admiration, self-absorption, egotism, conceit, self-importance, selfishness, self-centerednes

nar•cis•sist
ˈnɑrsəsɪstShow Spelled [nahr-suh-sist] Show IPA 
noun 
1. a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish. 
2. Psychoanalysis . a person who suffers from narcissism, deriving erotic gratification from admiration of his or her own physical or mental attributes.



Vega said:


> As for the deception, that's also part of ego. People WANT to see themselves as 'better' than who they are. They will lie because they fear being seen as 'bad' or 'unworthy'. They may have made understandable age-appropriate mistakes in childhood, but were SHAMED for not doing 'better'. It can carry over to adulthood. If they're caught in a lie, they can either become severely depressed, not care or feel extremely embarrassed. The feeling of humility is _overwhelming_, almost too powerful for them to bear.


Deception is not part of ego. Deception does not reside in the ego, the self .It can be a mechanism used by people to build up their own ego. 




Vega said:


> Deception is common to cheating and abuse. They will both lie to people as well as to themselves. They can't bear the thought that they're not as 'deserving' as they want to believe. We often wonder WHY cheaters will re-write history with lies, and we've learned that it's to _justify_ their cheating. But deep down inside, they know that what they're saying isn't the truth. Up front, they hope that YOU don't know that what they're saying isn't the truth....


Deception is a tool used by humans for many reasons: in cheating, in making excuses for abuse, in carrying out crimes, in sparing the feelings of others. It’s not the reason for the force behind any of these. It’s just one of many tools used to pull off what they want to do.


Vega said:


> ...and verbal/emotional abusers operate on the same 'principles'. They hope that they can convince you that either they are 'better' than who they really are, or that YOU are 'worse' than who YOU really are (hence, why many abusers accuse us of lying when we really aren't...)


Again the deception is a tool. And keep in mind that the abuser believes what they are saying. They believe that their victim is stupid, an idiot, lying, and so forth. It’s their reality. 


Vega said:


> When an abuser tells us that we're "stupid", "idiots", "lying", "cheaters", "b*tches", "c*nts", "lazy" etc. quite often they KNOW that we're not.


I disagree with this. Generally the abuser believes every vile thing they are saying. It’s not a lie to them. It’s how they really see things. I’ve known too many abusers, talked to too many in the volunteer work I’ve done… they believe their distorted view of things. They often have problems such as personality disorders, bi-polar, etc. that distorts their view of things. But they believe it.


Vega said:


> And when a cheater tells us that we "weren't meeting his/her needs", in a way, they also know they're not. While there may be times when we WERN'T meeting their needs, they're hoping we will be convinced that what they're saying is a "good enough" reason to cheat.


It’s an assumption on your part that when a person cheats they lie when they say that their spouse is not meeting their needs. It’s often true. That’s often why their connection to their spouse has broken down.


Vega said:


> People who have well-developed self-esteem have control over their ego. People who have big ego's (and it's manifested by selfishness: abuse and cheating for example) have LOW self-esteem. People who have small ego's usually have HIGH self-esteem.


Ego is self-esteem. You separate the two.. they are not, by definition two separate things.

Wrong on the big/small ego = low/high self-esteem. Ego = Self-esteem. 


Vega said:


> Abusers OVERCOMPENSATE for the powerlessness they may have felt in childhood. The feeling of powerlessness carries over to teens and adulthood.


I agree with this. This is why abuse is about control and gaining back their power. The abuser has to control the abused so that they feel in control and have power. They need this to feel safe at home and they need it to make them feel powerful when away from home.



Vega said:


> Cheater may also feel a sense of 'power' while cheating. A sense of being 'in control' of their own happiness, despite the occasional pangs of guilt they may feel.


I agree that some cheaters get the feeling of power from cheating. Not all cheaters do.

Everyone, should feel that they have power over their own happiness. The issues comes when someone does not and they use wrong behavior to try to gain that power over their own happiness.



Vega said:


> But both the cheater and the abuser are selfish; self-centered. Selfishness and self-centeredness are born out of an immature ego.


All people must have a degree of selfishness and self-centeredness. If a person does not they do not take care of themselves. They allow others to walk all over them. When a person’s sense of self gets out of whack one way or the other that problems like abuse and cheating occur… and a lot of other problems as well.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I have not read your story but I bet she thinks she is going to live happily ever after? Just bide your time. I hate to criticize my own gender, we catch enough hell. But I have to say that some woman can be very foolish.
> 
> Maybe some of us read too many fairy tales growing up and live in a perpetual never-never land.*Well, when your wife lands on her azz, she'll be knocked out of paradise.
> 
> Sorry for your pain. You have this to look forward to, your life will be looking up after you unload this foolish woman.*


Catherine: I really appreciate your sentiments but have some reservations about your rationale.

In my case, STBXW is a millionairess who primarily lives off of the interest accrued from her worldwide investments. Her first husband put her there then she divorced him over his chronic alcoholism. She had him sign off on her getting over 70% of his assets, and he was still considered to be rather well-off after the divorce. Then he mysteriously died of alcoholism just months before our wedding. I have been told that like myself, she cheated on her first husband, more especially when he was sent off to alcoholic rehab. If that holds true, then she's rather adept and experienced in that activity as well!

As a prerequisite to our marriage, she heartily intoned that I could retire and would never have to work again. 

Granted, for what I call "new wealth," she does have a crackerjack financial investment team working for her and she supposedly is doing rather well with it. Although she doesn't really need it, she is also currently working one day a week as a parttime employee so that she can earn enough quarters in order to qualify for social security.

Let's just say that while she was raised as middle class girl and educated at a prominent state university, she has rarely ever had to work in her lifetime.

Given all of that, I can't help but feel that her jaded perception of our situation is that she won't be happy until she sees me laying penniless in the gutter, knowing full well that I can little afford to match her dollar for dollar in getting the best legal representation in our impending divorce trial.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You can't get blood out of a stone. How could any judge take from you and give to her when she has so much? You need to be as crafty and entitled as she. She has more assets why isn't she paying you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> You can't get blood out of a stone. How could any judge take from you and give to her when she has so much? You need to be as crafty and entitled as she. She has more assets why isn't she paying you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Primarily because of some vague clause within the embodiment of our prenup that she feels that she can fully exercise. I really don't feel that she can ultimately win, at least before a jury of mostly rural country folk; but by the same token, I can ill-afford to pay legal counsel some 10K for the inherent trial expenses, much like she can.

I had always thought that a prenup was primarily there to keep the lesser-monied partner from attempting to abscond with the monetary assets of the richer partner, rather than vice-versa! 

I'm of the opinion that she conversely sees it as a viable vehicle to demoralize and bankrupt me, all at the same time!


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## olwhatsisname (Dec 5, 2012)

cheating comes from having why too much time on your hands
!!!


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

olwhatsisname said:


> cheating comes from having why too much time on your hands
> !!!


And from having your hands on someone else.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

NeverMore said:


> And from having your hands on someone else.


:lol:

that's good


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