# Life is not fair, why Education is Worthless in USA



## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

family and I came to this country as immigrants, I was raised since I was young, worked hard, two jobs and full time school, graduated with computer science degree and now working toward Phd.
Been at My job for 4 years, it became dead end, applying for different position during these years cant seem getting me anywhere, while seeing freaking people with No degree moving around and getting promoted and some of them you wonder how the hell they got into their positions. 
Out of depression I sent an email to HR saying what the hell is wrong with the system, why im not able to move, is it me? I believe did my homework, 3.3 GPA, top grad schools, some experience. 

well, I had meeting with HR, she said we hire people based on experience, and many we hired dont have college degree but experience, and I have degree but some little experience, i was like how do you expect me to get experience If Im not able to move and get it. I get stupid answers. 

People where I came from and countries like india and china, europ if you dont have a degree you wont get hired, because of respect to education. thats why they are getting a head of us, they more education, and getting better and better. 

I have a lot student loans, and cant find good paying job, don't care about money as much as finding something I learn from. 

I'm suffering, everyday, I feel worthless, and whole education thing not worth it. 

is this why our country is getting behind? lazy people are getting awarded, hot Bimbos sleeping their way up.

When a freaking a plumber, stripper, construction man etc, get paid more than scientist or people with higher education is messed up and not fair. when our jobs are sent overseas, this is not fair. 

when Rappers that look like and dress like and talk like garbage getting rich because they are calling women beaatch and hooooers, this is a messed up life we live in.


----------



## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

are you a bit of a snob or what ?

why not consider trade school instead of that useless, expensive phd? 

understand your frustrated but you really sound like you are full of sour grapes . scientist can make very good money but they have to start somewhere . most people recognize the only way your going to get a significant increase in salary is to move to another company or position within your co . that's the way the industry structured.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

during the time at work and working on my higher Ed. i took several training technical classes to keep up with my skills and be able to move up. even doing my own training. 
as I said, Money increase not first thing, moving to a different department and position is.


----------



## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

Thats because when it comes to the software and even hardware world of computers the guy who has been making home rigs for himself from spare parts or the guy who has made his own games since he was 10 is more valuable then a guy that learned how to do it in 4 years. Oone person has the natural talent and drive to do it the other person was taught to do it in a class room.

Look at early microsoft before it was this mega corporation as an example, or look at current apple where Jobs still has a hand in everything. Niether man is really that educated what they do have is a tremoundous wealth of expierence combined with extrodinary talent.

Even going regular scientist routes I know of very few true scientists who are multi-millionaires. Yes many of them live nice but both in the European culture and the American culture they are living off of someone's dime whether it be at a university having house and lab paid for or a corporation the actual money they are making is slim and paltry they just get acces to great labs etc. 

As far as Education goes in science lets not forgot that good old Albert couldn't pass a basic Algebra class if his life depended on it.

Entertainers make money because society deems they are worth it, if 100million screaming teenage girls would quit buying crappy Beiber CD's then he would disapear. Rap music you may hear just *****es and hoes but if you live that life you hear something else. At least good rap music. Just like country music isn't I lost my wife, truck, job, house, and just found out my dog died.


----------



## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

homemaker, 
I type pretty fast and never look at what im typing or even saying when I'm at sites such as TAM or writing to a friend or family. consider it like typing from text message.
thank you, I will find the book and read it. 

NiceGuy13, I agree with you, I'm one of these people who used to enjoy these things until I got married and got a full time job. 
i see your point, i went that router because I love technology and want to create and design things, and learn while I work. 

and Dont let me start on Beiber.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Tourchwood said:


> is this why our country is getting behind? lazy people are getting awarded, hot Bimbos sleeping their way up.
> 
> When a freaking a plumber, stripper, construction man etc, get paid more than scientist or people with higher education is messed up and not fair. when our jobs are sent overseas, this is not fair.


Wait... did you just call tradespeople lazy? And I know no harder working people than strippers. Be thankful that is not all you have to get by on.

Could it be the people you are interviewing with can sense your feelings of entitlement and, frankly, whining? When I hire, I hire a member of a team. A contributor. How problems get solved and attitude are every bit as important as technical skill. And if they can demonstrate the skills and attributes I need, then no their higher education means diddly to me, unless it is through their higher education that they demonstrated their attributes. (Says the wife of a very hard working non-college graduate software engineer.)



> when Rappers that look like and dress like and talk like garbage getting rich because they are calling women beaatch and hooooers, this is a messed up life we live in.


Well there is some of that. But you will hear, if you listen, a great deal of social and political commentary on the struggles of the underclass.


----------



## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Welcome to america where yes life isn't fair. The sooner you understand this game the sooner you can navigate it. Promotions rarely happen just because you have all the credentials and education. There is more at play than that. It's very political and many times it's who you know not what you know.

I've left plenty of jobs because it became deadend to no fault of my own. You have to learn to create your own future. It will never be handed to you.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Tourchwood. I have worked in and around IT for years. IT is not a field which respects advanced degrees. There are some exceptions in the research wings of large firms like Cisco, Oracle, SAS and IBM but for the most part PhDs aren't worth the effort in those areas. If you want to use your degree you're going have to be in academia. I have an MS and a.b.d. in Math, and an MBA in econometrics. Unless someone offered me a stable full time adjunct position with research and little teaching I wouldn't finish my dissertation for a PhD full degree. 

To me it's a cultural distinction. Old Europe and India seem to require more advanced degrees for the same work we do here.


----------



## TemperToo (Apr 23, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> Welcome to america where yes life isn't fair. The sooner you understand this game the sooner you can navigate it. Promotions rarely happen just because you have all the credentials and education. There is more at play than that. It's very political and many times it's who you know not what you know.
> 
> I've left plenty of jobs because it became deadend to no fault of my own. You have to learn to create your own future. It will never be handed to you.


:iagree: 110% I (finally) have an education too, but it took me over a year to find a job in the area I live. And I was the only one out of my peers who actually had a degree.....the rest got there on experience. I was lucky in the fact that I had some specialized experience (that you don't even get on a job, really) and kinda fell into the position I had. But it really is all about politics, and knowing the right people. The trick is accepting that, and then introducing yourself to them.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

NC state graduated 170 PhDs this past Saturday. Most of them in DVM, Math and Engineering.


----------



## TemperToo (Apr 23, 2011)

And I can tell you from experience (not mine, unfortunately) that DVM isn't worth much either. Something I would still love to do.....for the pure love of it.


----------



## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Tourchwood said:


> during the time at work and working on my higher Ed. i took several training technical classes to keep up with my skills and be able to move up. even doing my own training.
> as I said, Money increase not first thing, moving to a different department and position is.


How is your ability to collaborate? If you project the _it is beneath me_ you project here, I would overlook you as well.

Maybe you think education and skill are all you need to succeed. Work on your people skills, your humility and your false beliefs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

TemperToo said:


> And I can tell you from experience (not mine, unfortunately) that DVM isn't worth much either. Something I would still love to do.....for the pure love of it.


All variations on veterinary are still in high demand. Remember NC State is cutting edge for large animal research, livestock medicine, genetics and animal bioengineering. They created the first animal bionic limb. They also do multidisciplinary work with the Ag school. They solved Hive Collapse Syndrome last year.


----------



## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Although I have a college education, it really gets me no where on its own. "People skills" open far more doors. And now that I'm older, I rely more on my experience. Education is never worthless. It is merely a strong foundation for you to build on. What you build on that great foundation is entirely up to you.


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Tourchwood said:


> family and I came to this country as immigrants, I was raised since I was young, worked hard, two jobs and full time school, graduated with computer science degree and now working toward Phd.
> Been at My job for 4 years, it became dead end, applying for different position during these years cant seem getting me anywhere, while seeing freaking people with No degree moving around and getting promoted and some of them you wonder how the hell they got into their positions.
> Out of depression I sent an email to HR saying what the hell is wrong with the system, why im not able to move, is it me? I believe did my homework, 3.3 GPA, top grad schools, some experience.
> 
> ...


I know you are not feeling very well, so you are here venting. But the tone of your post about other jobs tells me you don't respect those people, you think you are better than those people, it is not a good attitude to have. 

People who are plumbers, carpenters, hairdressers, beauticians, cleaners, chefs, etc etc etc they work hard and make their honest money. They learn very hard and become skilled in their area. Let me put it this way, if they are experts in their areas, they are good, they make good and stable income. This society needs scientists, it needs all these other professions too. 

You humble a little bit, respect other people, don't think that you are better than others just because you have some degree. In bad economy, I think first goes are scientists. Skills which are important to people's daily life are important.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Fair" is the where you go to ride the ferris wheel and eat cotton candy. In the U.S., fungi can get a high school diploma and probably a college degree. A graduate degree used to be more highly prized because it used to be rare. Opportunities still abound but there is no substitute for hard work. There is no money tree, no pot of gold at the end of rainbows. Life in the U.S. gives you a certain measure of freedom but success isn't guaranteed. You may have to work two jobs. You may have to find or make your own opportunities. Plumbers earn a lot because there's nothing like a backed-up toilet to make people whip out a checkbook. If my laptop goes on the fritz, I can buy a new one for $600. Rappers earn more than most computer geeks because they sell millions of CDs and computer geeks don't. Find something that few people can do or are willing to do and you'll make money.


----------



## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

May be the sound of my tone gave you an impression that I disrespect hard labor. That is not true. I respect all who earn their living. I'm very sorry if I sounded that way. 

My point, is that balance, as Many of you worked as hard, I had two Job, slept sometimes in My car, eating crackers and Ketchup for dinner sometimes just to be a good American citizen and help the country and the people who allowed me to live among them in this great country. 
Working full time while going to school full time was very hard, paying money for college is expensive, and paying it back is more expensive and we are not getting awarded for it. 
Ladies and Gentlemen, we are facing huge problem as Americans in the near future, China, India, Russia etc, are getting bigger, their education getting better, their technology are better. 
with giving Education and schools the attention it deserve we wont make it another 10 years. 
I love learning new things, I love teaching new things. 

Sorry again all if you got bad impression, my deep apology.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Welcome to america where yes life isn't fair.


Where IS life fair? Why do we have any illusion that life is fair? 

Ask the people born in the ghetto if life is fair? Why was I born in suburban New England where some other kid was born in East LA?

Why was I born in suburban New England where some other kid was born in Burma?


----------



## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

wow i just love a good serving of snobbery and entitlement first thing in the morning. sheesh...education doesn't make you smarter nor does it make you more hardworking than someone without an education or someone with "just" a tradeschool education. get real.


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Well, why don't you move to India, Russia or China, etc. and get a job if you are so disappointed with the way things are here?


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I understand your feelings of frustration. Life is not fair. The best we can do is try to make it more fair, but in saying this, you have to try to make it more fair for everyone rather than just yourself (as that wouldn't be fair). That rather changes the picture of fair instantly though doesn't it? It means you have to care about the lives of all things around you if you really wanted to get deep into fair. It sounds to me that you are only worried that life is unfair for you. No worries, I'm pretty sure it's unfair for all of us.


----------



## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

karole said:


> Well, why don't you move to India, Russia or China, etc. and get a job if you are so disappointed with the way things are here?


yes...this!

I just love when people come to America and do nothing but complain about America and insult Americans. If you don't like it...leave. don't let the door hit you as you go. 


In all seriousness though, when my son goes to college i'm going to tell him he may as well learn some sort of usable trade along with getting his degree just in case the degree aspect doesn't pan out he has something to fall back on that will make him a really decent living.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I understand your feelings of frustration. Life is not fair. The best we can do is try to make it more fair, but in saying this, you have to try to make it more fair for everyone rather than just yourself (as that wouldn't be fair).


Good works are important. Helping people in need is critical. Fighting for social, economic and political justice is in crisis states of need.

But that does not mean one cannot be effective, focussed and single minded in the pursuit of providing for oneself and ones family. 

He does not NEED to make it more fair for anyone else. 

Right now he NEEDS to get a job. And whether he likes it or not, life ISN'T fair. And never will be. So what be NEEDS to do is look at why he isn't getting one. And fix that.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Good works are important. Helping people in need is critical. Fighting for social, economic and political justice is in crisis states of need.
> 
> But that does not mean one cannot be effective, focussed and single minded in the pursuit of providing for oneself and ones family.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I was speaking in general terms. I don't expect him to go out and fight for economic justice or anything. I've found that my kids love the term "Life is not fair" but don't recognize that they are only looking out for themselves. Life is not fair for everyone and wanting it only to be fair for yourself actually backs up the expression they're exclaiming.

You most likely have me pegged as a do good'er, preachy type. I'm sure I come across that way but I can assure you that taking care of my family is my first priority always. It is where my raw heart is instead of my protected heart that has the luxury of trying to help. I'm well aware that it's a luxury.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Guess what? Once you finally succeed, it gets even less fair. In many companies, jobs above about $125,000 per year are not even bidded internally for promotable employees. Degrees mean little. Entitlement means even less. You are just tapped on the shoulder. You get the job because you either show that you can make millions for your company, or save similar amounts in green dollars (not cost avoidances).

People whine about the hours they put in when they aren't tapped on the shoulder. Who would promote someone that doesn't know how to leverage their time? Others complain about degrees. The piece of paper is only an entry pass into the company.

I would focus inward when the system seems unfair. I started in my company as an hourly machinist, but I got my college degree soon after starting. The degree meant nothing at the time. What kickstarted my career was that I noticed that one of our operations was labor intensive, and still didn't meet our quality standards. We're talking tolerances of ten millionths of an inch. I asked my boss if he would consider launching a green book for new capital if I could prove to him that a new machine could make the part. I worked with the sales guy, invented a process to make it work on my parts, and got $1 for the patent, based upon the contract I signed with my company. One year later, I was promoted. 

The long and short of it is that America is all about doing something. Not entitlements.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Yeah, I was speaking in general terms. I don't expect him to go out and fight for economic justice or anything. I've found that my kids love the term "Life is not fair" but don't recognize that they are only looking out for themselves.


Amen about hte kids. My response is always "You got that right!"



> Life is not fair for everyone and wanting it only to be fair for yourself actually backs up the expression they're exclaiming.


Life is not fair for anyone. Some of us are just lucky/blessed whatever you want to call it. Recognizing that life ISN'T fair can help us to be grateful.



> You most likely have me pegged as a do good'er, preachy type.
> [/quoe]
> Nah I am just the daughter of a physics professor and got his penchant for wanting accuracy. He used to answer the question what time is it to include the seconds. (Yes tech heads I do recognize that as precision and not accuracy.)
> 
> ...


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> Amen about hte kids. My response is always "You got that right!"


As a kid, the response we got to this was "Fair is a figment of your imagination!"


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Tourchwood. I have worked in and around IT for years. IT is not a field which respects advanced degrees. There are some exceptions in the research wings of large firms like Cisco, Oracle, SAS and IBM but for the most part PhDs aren't worth the effort in those areas. If you want to use your degree you're going have to be in academia. I have an MS and a.b.d. in Math, and an MBA in econometrics. Unless someone offered me a stable full time adjunct position with research and little teaching I wouldn't finish my dissertation for a PhD full degree.
> 
> To me it's a cultural distinction. Old Europe and India seem to require more advanced degrees for the same work we do here.


:iagree:
I have a Computer Science degree and work in IT. It didn't take long for me and my co-workers to figure out that the advanced degrees were essentially worthless for us. Yeah, we might have got some "tuition reimbursement" back, but the advanced degree itself didn't make one whit of difference in our promotability or salary.


----------



## Tourchwood (Feb 1, 2011)

WhiteRabbit and Karole are you series ?
this is my country as much as yours and only people that could tell me leave are American Indians. 

any how, I never insulted my country or people of my country, I'm talking about a problem that I'm facing or so many are facing, looking for an advice and encouragement from you all to keep going.

our problem in this country are people like WhiteRabbit and Karole, that when someone suggest, ask, complain, or try to improve something we are told if you don't like it leave. 

Homemaker_Numero_Uno, I love your constructive feedback and posts. I appreciate to hear from people like you.


----------



## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

The problem in our country is people who whine, not people like WR and K.

Go to trade school if you aren't succeeding in your chosen field. You may simply not be as good as you think you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WhiteRabbit (May 11, 2011)

Tourchwood said:


> WhiteRabbit and Karole are you series ?
> this is my country as much as yours and only people that could tell me leave are American Indians.
> 
> any how, I never insulted my country or people of my country, I'm talking about a problem that I'm facing or so many are facing, looking for an advice and encouragement from you all to keep going.
> ...


for all your education you don't understand the use of "you" as a generalization to represent the many people who come to this country only to complain about it and the people in it. 

take it easy...i wasn't attacking you or trying to evict you from this country.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> :iagree:
> I have a Computer Science degree and work in IT. It didn't take long for me and my co-workers to figure out that the advanced degrees were essentially worthless for us. Yeah, we might have got some "tuition reimbursement" back, but the advanced degree itself didn't make one whit of difference in our promotability or salary.


In my opinion, on of the reasons for that is the state of higher education and the expectation that many, many people bring to it. Higher education in USA has become not so much about the education, but about the piece of paper you get at the end.

One thing I agree with Torchwood on, though I don't quite have the doomsday outlook he does, is that our EDUCATION is often inferior to that of other nations. Not that we should be come Singapore style militaristic. But we sure need to become competitive in our delivery of education, find new and better models, if we mean not to be left behind in the global economy.


----------



## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Inferior and too expensive. But like any other investment, you have to weigh the potential ROI. In your case, if you continue toward your PhD you are putting good money after bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JJG (Mar 9, 2011)

The view of "everyone must go to university and get a degree or else they are useless, unintelligent and lazy" is the very reason why degrees are becoming more and more worthless.

If everyone has one, they no longer set you apart from the crowd.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Education opens doors. Daring and confident people walk through those doors. Your attidude that "life isn't fair" is what turns your wife off toward you sexually.


----------



## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Re-read my post. I did not tell you that you had to leave;however, I simply pointed out that if you feel the other countries are better than the U.S., you should move to one of those countries. Also, if you are consistently being passed over for promotions, perhaps the problem lies within you and not your employer, the United States educational system and/or the United States of America in general.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

karole said:


> Re-read my post. I did not tell you that you had to leave;however, I simply pointed out that if you feel the other countries are better than the U.S., you should move to one of those countries. Also, if you are consistently being passed over for promotions, perhaps the problem lies within you...


Or at least the solution does. Find what employers want. Do that.


----------



## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

One thing that I didn't say in my previous response was that I certainly understand the frustration. I'd encourage you to look at things long term. It will take time to learn the culture of a specific company or organization. This culture isn't documented, but its usually the secret code that gets you promoted.

Currently, I manage an engineer who was invoved on the marches at Tiananmen Square. It took so long to work his way through Canada, and then to where I work. Many of my coworkers are working under H1B status, so they are fortunate that our employer does a better job than most on teaching corporate culture (Sorry, not an IT employer. I work in automotive engine fuel technology development).

Look or ways to make your mark with your managers, but in ways that practically bring value to the company. Don't ask them directly until you schedule a formal one on one, but then ask for feedback. Over time, you'll begin to see what really makes a difference there. Then, go after it. Look for ways to push the envelope in ways that mean something to your employer. If your immediate job doesn't provide the opportunity, build credibility with your manager by excelling in areas that mean something. Then, schedule time with him/her again to start talking about next steps.


----------



## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

One piece of advice..

NEVER go to HR with a question like that, in fact don't go to HR at all if you can avoid it. They are not your friends.

You should approach your manager and ask about opportunities as well as ways to advance in your company.

When you have a country where there are no penalties for hiring outside help (Russia,China) this is what happens. Cheap labor...


----------



## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

(By that I mean jobs that we cannot find skilled people for locally)


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There's a Yiddish proverb: In a flood build boats, in a plague build coffins.


----------

