# 4yrs later and it is even worse



## pidge70

To those that know mine and Joe's story, I need help. I'm just so damn upset...if any of my friends on here would be willing to talk, please let me know.

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clay2013

I am sorry things are not going well. Are you able to sit him down and talk to him about how you are feeling? 

I don't know your story either sorry. 

Hate to really see anyone sad on this weekend. 

Clay


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## cool12

i hope someone comes along soon that knows your history.
((pidge))


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## Mrs_Mathias

Hey Pidge, pm if you want. Hoping you're ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## illwill

Cliff notes of your story?


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## ScarletBegonias

I'm so sorry Pidge. I really thought things were improving for you guys while you both took a break from here.


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## WyshIknew

Hi Pidge, I joined TAM just after (during?) you and Joe's problems so got the basic gist of things.

I'm happy to talk if it could help but it might be better (more appropriate?) if you talked to one of the ladies?

You could also open a group and invite a few people to talk in that group.

Sorry to hear that you are still having problems, it must be awful to deal with coming on top of your recent physical problems too.


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## Uptown

Pidge, I'm sorry to hear that things have gotten worse. And I'm sorry I'm a day late in seeing your post. As you know, you're always welcome to PM me.


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## pidge70

I just wanted to thank everyone that posted and pm'ed me with offers to listen. Things are still not great here, mostly pre A things that we still haven't dealt with effectively. 

Special shout out to Mrs JA for talking to me the other day......


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## pidge70

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You have my number babe...I am available if you need me. I have a good ear.


Shoot, Imma drive up there......


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## kristin2349

Feel free to PM me or post if you just want to vent.

Hope you're doing better.


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## pidge70

kristin2349 said:


> Feel free to PM me or post if you just want to vent.
> 
> Hope you doing better.


Thank you.


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## pidge70

WyshIknew said:


> Hi Pidge, I joined TAM just after (during?) you and Joe's problems so got the basic gist of things.
> 
> I'm happy to talk if it could help but it might be better (more appropriate?) if you talked to one of the ladies?
> 
> You could also open a group and invite a few people to talk in that group.
> 
> Sorry to hear that you are still having problems, it must be awful to deal with coming on top of your recent physical problems too.


You are such a sweetheart, thank you!


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## pidge70

Clay2013 said:


> I am sorry things are not going well. Are you able to sit him down and talk to him about how you are feeling?
> 
> I don't know your story either sorry.
> 
> Hate to really see anyone sad on this weekend.
> 
> Clay


Thank you sir.


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## kristin2349

pidge70 said:


> Shoot, Imma drive up there......


She is the best! And not as demure as her avatar would lead you to believe! Sorry Mrs, JA cat is out of the bag


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## pidge70

cool12 said:


> i hope someone comes along soon that knows your history.
> ((pidge))


Thank you for the hugs!


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## pidge70

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Hey Pidge, pm if you want. Hoping you're ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Mrs M.....I appreciate the offer.


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## pidge70

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm so sorry Pidge. I really thought things were improving for you guys while you both took a break from here.


Thank you SB. Things were improving......briefly.


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## MattMatt

WyshIknew said:


> Hi Pidge, I joined TAM just after (during?) you and Joe's problems so got the basic gist of things.
> 
> I'm happy to talk if it could help but it might be better (more appropriate?) if you talked to one of the ladies?
> 
> You could also open a group and invite a few people to talk in that group.
> 
> Sorry to hear that you are still having problems, it must be awful to deal with coming on top of your recent physical problems too.


Take care, Pidge and Joe. We're here for you both.:smthumbup:


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## kristin2349

Mrs. John Adams said:


> hey Kristin...I offered to fly to you...the offer still stands...lol


I might take you up on that! If I ever dig out of this snow! More tonight!


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## pidge70

MattMatt said:


> Take care, Pidge and Joe. We're here for you both.:smthumbup:


Thank you MM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soulpotato

Pidge, I am sorry you are going through this.  You are always welcome to contact me. If you want to talk, let me know.


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## illwill

Ahhhhhh...


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## Chaparral

This makes me sad. Good wishes and prayers for you and Joe.


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## Jellybeans

Hope you are ok, Pidge.
If you need an ear, holler.


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## Gabriel

Pidge, really sorry to hear. This just highlights how difficult marriage is, especially when you throw infidelity on top of it.

Not only are you battling the normal challenges that marriage throws at you day after day, but you have an extra layer to overcome. It's always lurking there, under the surface.

Pidge, if you want another person to PM, feel free. My wife and I are 2.5 years out, and have had plenty of bumps in the road, serious ones at that.


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## joe kidd

3 years 4 mo 25 days.


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## pidge70

How on Earth do you let go of resentment? I try and still, I get p!ssed off. I know he has plenty of resentment for me and I deserve it. He has apologized for the one thing that is killing me the most but, I can't/won't accept it. I need therapy.


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## Mrs_Mathias

pidge70 said:


> How on Earth do you let go of resentment? I try and still, I get p!ssed off. I know he has plenty of resentment for me and I deserve it. He has apologized for the one thing that is killing me the most but, I can't/won't accept it. I need therapy.


What are you afraid you will lose by accepting his apology and letting go of the past? If it's an action, are you afraid he's not sincere and will do it again? Are you afraid you will lose something of yourself (respect, self-identity) by forgiving him? IMO, resentment is a very effective defense mechanism. It guarantees a wall between you, with little conscious maintenance. So what is it protecting you from? I think if you can understand that vulnerability, you'll be a step closer to getting through it.

Sending positive thoughts your way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Joe, you have to remember to forget.

Then one day, you really will have forgotten. Well, pretty much. 

(This is from personal experience, mind.)


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## clipclop2

Let him go.

When he is gone long enough you might look at things differently.

Break up.

I'm serious.

If you give yourselves a few months truly apart, you might very well be ok. Forcing yourself to stay together isn't working.

No dating for 6 months. But minimal contact.


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## pidge70

I have decided I am forgiving. It isn't doing any good to hold on to something he cannot change. I know he loves me and he is sorry. I also know I do love him. We can do this.


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## Refuse to be played

pidge70 said:


> I have decided I am forgiving. It isn't doing any good to hold on to something he cannot change. I know he loves me and he is sorry. I also know I do love him. We can do this.


I'm not all that familar with you and Joe's story but I wish you luck all the same....


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## calvin

Just saw your thread pidge.
Praying for you and joe,if anyone can make it work you two can.
If there's anything me and CSS can do let us know.
You guys are still together for a reason,love.
Don't let her go joe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skype

OK you two from the Show Me state, show us Tammers you can do this. You know all the TAM rules, you know how to speak each other's love language and how to meet each other's needs. You are not nice guys, you know about boundaries, and how to leave emotional outbursts out of your marriage.

You have a whole forum to vent to when things get rough, and a bunch of wise guys when you need a laugh. You will make it!


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## calvin

You guys have an army of people here backing you up.
I don't know or can't remember if you both have had counseling.
You both fvcked up,this can be fixed and you two can have a great future together.
There is no why joe,I searched and dragged the waters over and over,the depth
would not give up their dead,let it go brother and both of you seek more help.
Little over two years for me and I'm done struggling,I see what I have in front of me
right now,a wife who loves the hell out of me,if they could turn back time CSS and pidge
would but they can't.
They want to move forward and we need to be there with them,they can only pay
their dues so much.
Time to go joe,both of you together,leave that crap behind before it kills you.
You both can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

I'm curious how you can suddenly say that you are going to forgive him and think that it will change the way you feel?

What I'm guessing is that it is going to result in you stuffing your feelings. Then one day, when he thinks everything has been going well, something small is going to trigger all of those stuffed feelings to come out in a very unhealthy way.

It'd be great if just saying it would really change things. But it is suspect because you've had years to forgive him and haven't.

Not everyone is able to forgive and stay married.


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## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> I'm curious how you can suddenly say that you are going to forgive him and think that it will change the way you feel?
> 
> What I'm guessing is that it is going to result in you stuffing your feelings. Then one day, when he thinks everything has been going well, something small is going to trigger all of those stuffed feelings to come out in a very unhealthy way.
> 
> It'd be great if just saying it would really change things. But it is suspect because you've had years to forgive him and haven't.
> 
> Not everyone is able to forgive and stay married.


My resentment comes from him not being there when I needed him. I had a craniotomy June 2012. It was early in the morning when I was told this in the ER. I called Joe and he decided to sleep and showed up right before my surgery. I am angry that he chose to sleep instead of immediately coming to the hospital. I was scared and alone. I was told I would die without the surgery. He has apologized. 

I have to forgive him for me, just like I have had to forgive other people in my life. I know Joe loves me, he cannot change what happened. We can only move forward.


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## hopefulgirl

I think this is the kind of thing that can leave a real scar. One of the things that BS's lose is the feeling that we have in our spouse someone who always "has our back." You went through a similar experience, one that filled you with fear, and you felt that at a critical time, you lost that feeling that your spouse would always have your back.

The kind of MC we're getting refers to infidelity, and what you went through, as an "attachment injury." I have a handout that defines attachment injuries as "relationship traumas which call into account basic assumptions about the relationship." It's really hard to heal from these until we feel that we are are FULLY heard and understood, and until we experience our spouses as truly understanding and DEEPLY empathizing with our pain. 

I don't know if you guys are working through this rough patch on your own or with the help of a skilled MC, but I just thought I'd mention this in case it might help you to see that your experience was a pretty big deal that should maybe be addressed in depth.


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## clipclop2

He didn't show you he loved you by not being there when you were in mortal danger.

You are in denial.


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## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> He didn't show you he loved you by not being there when you were in mortal danger.
> 
> You are in denial.


Do you know our story? I ask because when I cheated on him, I wasn't exactly showing him love either.


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## pidge70

hopefulgirl said:


> I think this is the kind of thing that can leave a real scar. One of the things that BS's lose is the feeling that we have in our spouse someone who always "has our back." You went through a similar experience, one that filled you with fear, and you felt that at a critical time, you lost that feeling that your spouse would always have your back.
> 
> The kind of MC we're getting refers to infidelity, and what you went through, as an "attachment injury." I have a handout that defines attachment injuries as "relationship traumas which call into account basic assumptions about the relationship." It's really hard to heal from these until we feel that we are are FULLY heard and understood, and until we experience our spouses as truly understanding and DEEPLY empathizing with our pain.
> 
> I don't know if you guys are working through this rough patch on your own or with the help of a skilled MC, but I just thought I'd mention this in case it might help you to see that your experience was a pretty big deal that should maybe be addressed in depth.


Thank you for this, we are trying to do this on our own. I think I should look into at least IC for myself to help me deal with this and a multitude of other things. Having a personality disorder is making things even harder.


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## soulpotato

pidge70 said:


> Thank you for this, we are trying to do this on our own. I think I should look into at least IC for myself to help me deal with this and a multitude of other things. Having a personality disorder is making things even harder.


I vote for IC, Pidge. It can at least provide you with some support and guidance. BPD + infidelity + R = ton of bricks.


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## clipclop2

Neither of you showed one another you loved one another when you cheated on one another, Pidge.

I just don't see what that has to do with him not showing you he loved you by being there for you when you were in the hospital has to do with that.

Exactly when does showing you love one another begin?

He didn't go because he didn't want to be there for you and with you. He was selfish. That isn't loving. Even if he didn't want to go, he should have done t he RIGHT THING. He didn't do that either.

I've told Joe that sometimes staying together isn't the right solution and I'm going to tell you the same thing.

I wonder if the word "stubborn" isn't more appropriate than "loving" to explain why you are still married. 

It really is OK to get a divorce. It doesn't have to be the end of the relationship. It could provide a way for you to come back together because you want to rather than because you are already stuck with one another and unwilling to "give up" and face "failure". 

It wouldn't wipe the slate clean. But it sure would provide a logistical level playing field. All of the hard part of divorce will be handled. You'd be living on your own with your own finances, etc. You can date others if you wish. There would be nothing compelling you to get back together...

Unless that is what you truly wanted to do.


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## skype

Clipclop, they have a young son to raise. I think TAM advice should lean toward ideas for staying together, things that have worked for others in similar situations. Joe and Pidge will know if they come to the point where they cannot forgive the past. We should be not saying that they will not make it. That is their decision alone.


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## clipclop2

Their son is always going to be their son. But the stress their marriage causes is sure as hell felt by their son. There is a time to say enough is enough. They tried. It didn't work. It wasn't because they didn't try. Sometimes things just can't be fixed. 

How they accept that kind of truth is what matters. 

This is all very complicated emotionally. They both cheated. They both were selfish. They both feel enormous guilt. Quitting seems to suggest that it was all for nothing. But I don't see it that way. They've both grown up a lot. The end of a marriage is not the end of the world. What the future holds can be so much better than the hell they won't let go of because of their guilt. It can be better for everyone. They have both paid dearly. They've earned some peace.


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## calvin

Clip seems pretty rough around the edges and I feel he could have presented
what he just said better but...... mostly agree with what he just said,no punches
pulled and that's what's needed sometimes.
Joe,pidge,I dig you guys,you're both pretty cool.
I could'nt imagine being in their shoes,its tough.Its different than what me and CSS went (are a little )
going through.
Seems sometimes people forget pidge got hurt also,yes I know it would'nt have happend
if she did"nt fvck up but right now I think you both need to quit trying to place
blame,drop the resentment and work towords a common goal...being happy and
taking care of the families interest.
Joe was wronged big time,so was I,we did'nt take care of our marriages,me,joe,pidge or css.
We all fvcked up.
We can fix it though.
Have you guys tried counseling at all? It won't hurt. Its not a cure all but it can put you
On the right path.
Pidge is still there because she loves joe,joe hasn't left because he loves pidge.
You two can do this,one way or the other but I feel joe holds the key here.
You guys have a chance here,don't waste it or more time.
Still praying for you both.

Damn Clip,wouldn't want to get on your bad side.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

I'm late to the party. Pidge you know I have you and Joe in my thoughts. PM me if you need to.


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## Paladin

clipclop2 said:


> Their son is always going to be their son. But the stress their marriage causes is sure as hell felt by their son. There is a time to say enough is enough. They tried. *It didn't work*. It wasn't because they didn't try. Sometimes things just *can't be fixed*.
> 
> They've both grown up a lot. The end of a marriage is not the end of the world. What the future holds can be so much better than the hell they won't let go of because of their guilt. It can be better for everyone. They have both paid dearly. They've earned some peace.


Kind of a blanket statement there about the success or failure of their efforts to R. Life is rarely black and white, they tried, maybe it hasnt worked as well as they hoped, but I dont recall reading that there was a time limit for the process to succeed. Also, if something cant be fixed, it can be replaced, I dont throw away the lamp when the bulb burns out, I replace the bulb. Its also ok to not view a marriage as a disposable thing, so long as there is a conscious effort being made by both spouses, there is always a chance for success. 

The scenario you outline would still require both of them to let go of their guilt to move forward with lives apart from one another. If the effort to shed the guilt has to be made anyway, why tank all that marital history right along with it? Forgiveness is a very liberating, and often misunderstood concept. In most cases, forgiveness does more for the person doing the forgiving than the person receiving it. The exception being forgiving one's self, but that is essentially what you were getting at with the letting go of guilt concept.


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## clipclop2

Paladin, I'm not making a blanket statement except about their son.

Time moves in a single direction. There is a time limit to everything. What you do with your time matters.

Sometimes the right answer is letting go. 

Love isn't enough. 

As I've told Joe and others, it is easier to heal when you don't have a constant reminder of your pain -- when you don't have the target of your ire in your face all of the time. 

Because they love one another, I think they will both get past their anger and resentment if they were to split because Time=distance and Distance=perspective. 

There is no guarantee that they'll heal being apart. But I think it is a good bet they will. I think it is a surer bet than that they'll heal trying to force this to work. 

Every time I bring up that splitting is often the right answer, people bring up that there is no guarantee that splitting will bring peace and healing. It seems nonsensical to me in a case like this because we already know that trying to stay together is without a doubt, 100% not succeeding. 

If I could wave my magic wand and restore this couple, I would. Anyone would. But we can't and what is, is. 

Splitting up now doesn't say boo about their future. Maybe that perspective will allow them to come back together, renewed since they love one another so much. Why is that idea discounted?

To those who think it is a good idea to prolong pain just because they happen to be married, realize that long-term pain is bad for the health both physically and emotionally. I implore you to consider that their son is also negatively impacted by this. He will survive regardless of what they decide. But what situation is more likely to help him thrive?

And the exact same thing goes for Pidge and Joe. 

It is an awful decision to have to make. But they can do it with love. Love is something they don't deny having for one another. But romantic love is not sufficient. If only it were...

I'm going to bow out because I've given my opinion once again, and the people who simply cannot consider divorce because of whatever reason, will not be swayed. I'm not sure they even hear me.

Calvin -- I'm a she. I think sometimes my logical thinking belies that fact.


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## Paladin

clipclop2 said:


> Paladin, *I'm not making a blanket statement* except about their son.
> 
> *Time moves in a single direction.* _There is a time limit to everything._ *What you do with your time matters.
> *
> Sometimes the right answer is letting go.
> 
> *Love isn't enough. *
> 
> As I've told Joe and others, it is easier to heal when you don't have a constant reminder of your pain -- when you don't have the target of your ire in your face all of the time....
> 
> ... It seems nonsensical to me in a case like this because we already know that trying to stay together is without a doubt, *100% not succeeding*


Perhaps you and I have different definitions of what constitutes blanket statements. Why on earth would you think that there would always be a constant reminder of pain? Pain is an indication that something is wrong, when that something is fixed, it stops hurting. A spouse is not a target of ire, if there is ire, it should be addressed openly and solved through mutual effort.

I was unaware that you had intimate knowledge of the interpersonal dynamics of their relationship. since you've qualitatively deemed their efforts as 100% unsuccessful, they should obviously head for the hills. No point in trying to improve whatever happens to be dysfunctional, just part ways and it will go away on its own. 



clipclop2 said:


> Splitting up now doesn't say boo about their future. Maybe that perspective will allow them to come back together, renewed since they love one another so much. Why is that idea discounted?


Because as it has been demonstrated time and time again through many threads in CWI, the only thing distance is good for is splitting up. Two people can not effectively work on an issue that involves how they relate to one another, if they are not relating to one another. I might have missed some threads where a WS/BS takes "some time to sort things out apart" and are still successful in the efforts to R afterward. 



clipclop2 said:


> To those who think it is a good idea to prolong pain just because they happen to be married, realize that long-term pain is bad for the health both physically and emotionally.


Again, pain is present when there is something wrong. If there is a willingness on both sides to fix the problems, the pain goes away, and no one suffers.



clipclop2 said:


> I implore you to consider that their son is also negatively impacted by this. He will survive regardless of what they decide. But what situation is more likely to help him thrive?


The situation that helps his parents resolve whatever issues they are facing and leads to a loving happy couple/home. Its never a good idea to stay in a relationship "for the kids" or some other notions like that. A proper marriage/relationship takes constant work/fine tuning and will never succeed if people approach it as you said "happen to be married." It is not an accident, it is a willful way of living with someone you care about and that cares about you.



clipclop2 said:


> It is an awful decision to have to make. But they can do it with love. Love is something they don't deny having for one another. But romantic love is not sufficient. If only it were...
> 
> I'm going to bow out because I've given my opinion once again, and the people who simply cannot consider divorce because of whatever reason, will not be swayed. I'm not sure they even hear me.
> 
> Calvin -- I'm a she. I think sometimes my logical thinking belies that fact.


what we say has meaning, and not always the meaning we intended. Assuming no one listens to you because you are presented/presenting a dissenting point of view is selling yourself short a bit. Seemed to be a growing trend in your closing paragraph. BTW just for fun take a look at this article about women and logic:

Men, Women, and IQ: Setting the Record Straight | Psychology Today



> Flynn looked at IQ scores from ages 14-18 and found 5 modern states where he could get standardization samples with at least 500 people of each gender. The states he looked at were Australia, New Zealand, White South Africa, Estonia, and Argentina. It was important that he used standardization samples, because that means that the IQ researchers made an effort to get as representative a sample as possible.
> 
> Analyzing those 5 datasets and throwing away all of the older studies from the prior generation (prior to 1982), he compared men and women on the Raven's Progressive Matrices test, a test of abstract, logical reasoning. Setting the male score at 100, Flynn found that women scored the lowest in Australia (99.5), but in the other 4 nations Raven's scores varied from 100.5 to 101.5.


Female meekness(self deprecation?) is a social construct, while there are certainly tangible differences between the genders, logic is not one of the notable ones.

To bring this thread back on topic real quick. Here is a link with some great posts about love, understanding, forgiveness and a dedication to working things out. Adult love is a willful act/choice, and can, and should be, a major cornerstone for every relationship between spouses.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/171193-those-r.html

Hope, EI, Mr. and Mrs. JA and many others do a good job talking about the topic.


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## clipclop2

Paladin, I read your post about being 2 years in R and so happy with the progress you and your wife had made.

These two are at 4 years and are both unhappy. 

You make blanket statements yourself: Because as it has been demonstrated time and time again through many threads in CWI, the only thing distance is good for is splitting up.

Because you don't remember reading about people splitting and coming back together, it cannot happen?

Many of the things you have stated are true. How many of them is this couple doing _apart from staying together_?

That they both cheated is a really good indicator that they shouldn't be married to one another.

Enough.


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## calvin

Praying still for you both.Pidge and Joe,you guys can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

calvin said:


> Praying still for you both.Pidge and Joe,you guys can do it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## Paladin

clipclop2 said:


> Paladin, I read your post about being 2 years in R and so happy with the progress you and your wife had made.


Thank you for your kindness and support, I found lots of support here on TAM early on in the process, and hope that our story and comments are useful for others facing difficulties in their relationships.



clipclop2 said:


> These two are at 4 years and are both unhappy.
> 
> You make blanket statements yourself: Because as it has been demonstrated time and time again through many threads in CWI, the only thing distance is good for is splitting up.
> 
> Because you don't remember reading about people splitting and coming back together, it cannot happen?


People often vent when they are unhappy, and while they are venting, the majority of the things they focus on tend to be negative. Unless you lived with them, I'm not sure how you could possibly know how unhappy/happy they truly are.

You make a valid and fair point about me making generalizations with regard to the outcome of couples taking time away from one another. That being said, I challenge you to find any threads on TAM that support the point of view that splitting up and putting distance between spouses helps those spouse resolve relationship issues. I am genuinely interested in reading through any you may have come across. 



clipclop2 said:


> Many of the things you have stated are true. How many of them is this couple doing _apart from staying together_?
> 
> That they both cheated is a really good indicator that they shouldn't be married to one another.
> 
> Enough.


Great question about what they are doing to work on things, and should certainly be addressed to them directly as I am in no position to comment on their behalf.

I would agree with your statement that they shouldn't be together if the infidelity was still occurring in any way shape or form, but by the sound of it, they are not cheating on each other now, and since all humans are fallible, they should not be looked at as the sum of their actions, but as people who are capable of learning from mistakes and making improvements to their quality of life together, and by extension, improving the quality of life of their offspring.


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## calvin

I feel a couple days away from eachother might do them some good,I thought about this
a lot and a seperation is going to do more harm than good.I could be wrong but
they are still together for a reason and I believe they do love eachother....a lot.
Also the kids are there,especially the little one and that makes things rough.
Christ I wish I had an answer.
Joe,pidge? How are you two doing right now?
Joe,remember you told me I should be on the path to forgiveness?
Its hard,for both of you.
What do you guys think it would take for the healing to start?
You both have had my back and been kind to me and CSS,we appreciate it.
What is the outcome you're looking for? How do you guys want this to go?
Sorry if I'm out of line here but CSS and I hope this can be resolved and your lives
good.
I know,who am I to speak,we still struggle also but there are promising signs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

While I appreciate everyone's input, the positive and the negative, we will be fine.

The weekend started out crappy, par for the course but, we had a really good day today.

I am going to make a concerted effort to let the petty things go, easier said than done when I have played "victim" for numerous years. Thank you BPD. 

We not only have a son I am concerned about, we are having quite a bit of trouble with our 14yr old daughter. Joe and I have to get our crap together so we can raise our kids in a healthy environment. I know we can do it.


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## tdwal

pidge70 said:


> My resentment comes from him not being there when I needed him. I had a craniotomy June 2012. It was early in the morning when I was told this in the ER. I called Joe and he decided to sleep and showed up right before my surgery. I am angry that he chose to sleep instead of immediately coming to the hospital. I was scared and alone. I was told I would die without the surgery. He has apologized.
> 
> I have to forgive him for me, just like I have had to forgive other people in my life. I know Joe loves me, he cannot change what happened. We can only move forward.


I understand, my wife failed to show up before they took me into surgery for a heart attack. She had half the day to get there. Some people just don't get it.


----------



## pidge70

tdwal said:


> I understand, my wife failed to show up before they took me into surgery for a heart attack. She had half the day to get there. Some people just don't get it.


I'm sorry.... Did she say why it took her so long?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Right or wrong I feel like I have to beg for what was so freely given to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DarkHoly

Can someone please help me understand what the hell is going on, or at least give me a link so I can read up? 

From the outside this just looks really odd.


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> Right or wrong I feel like I have to beg for what was so freely given to him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kind of like I have to beg for what you so freely gave to her?


----------



## pidge70

DarkHoly said:


> Can someone please help me understand what the hell is going on, or at least give me a link so I can read up?
> 
> From the outside this just looks really odd.


There are no links as Joe and I deleted our original threads.


----------



## Tron

pidge70 said:


> Kind of like I have to beg for what you so freely gave to her?


Hello Pidge,

Tit for tat is bad business. This sounds like retaliation. Please try to step away from that.

What is it that you have to beg for from him? What did he give her that you don't get? Trust, honesty, support, security, sex, intimacy...what exactly?


----------



## pidge70

Tron said:


> Hello Pidge,
> 
> Tit for tat is bad business. This sounds like retaliation. Please try to step away from that.
> 
> What is it that you have to beg for from him? What did he give her that you don't get? Trust, honesty, support, security, sex, intimacy...what exactly?


I kinda feel Joe was doing the "tit for tat" thing with his post. 

He gave her his time/attention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

I like you guys,I wish there is someway you two can work this out.
You guys are good people,it sucks seeing both of you struggling.
There HAS to be a way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

pidge70 said:


> I kinda feel Joe was doing the "tit for tat" thing with his post.
> 
> He gave her his time/attention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Time and attention that, as I understand it, he is giving you now, no? Do you feel that?

So what is it that Joe feels that he has you beg for that you gave to the OM?


----------



## pidge70

Negative attention is not what I'm after, thats what I get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vi_bride04

I tried R for 5 yrs. We had the whole tit for tat dynamic, lots of resentment on both sides (he cheated, I cheated), and we just couldn't work it out. He is a serial cheater and I left him before he had a chance to cheat on me again...I don't think the serial cheating applies to either one of you.

Anyways, you HAVE to stop with the competitiveness with each other. It is obvious you both have deep resentment. Resentment is poison. I am not sure how to get rid of it once it infects a relationship, maybe a break would do you guys some good. Its extremely hard to move past it when you are reminded of the hurt and pain every day. The tit for tat as well just creates a horrible cycle that leads to so much mis-communication. 

Have you thought about taking a physical separated break for a few months?


----------



## Clay2013

I can't really imagine what you both are going through. I do see you still coming here trying to make your lives better. That is the point that sticks with me. People don't try to improve there relationship if they don't love each other. My xW blamed me the whole time. So at least you both have this. 

I think I would start a new thread with both of you laying out your issues and trying to work through them. There are a lot of really good people here. I am sure there are some who are in the process of Reconciling that could help you both. 

You may not be interested in doing this but honestly at this point what do you really have to loose. 

I hope the best for both of you regardless of what you choose. 

Clay


----------



## Tron

vi_bride04 said:


> Anyways, you HAVE to stop with the competitiveness with each other. It is obvious you both have deep resentment. Resentment is poison. I am not sure how to get rid of it once it infects a relationship, maybe a break would do you guys some good. Its extremely hard to move past it when you are reminded of the hurt and pain every day. The tit for tat as well just creates a horrible cycle that leads to so much mis-communication.
> 
> Have you thought about taking a physical separated break for a few months?


Don't know about the separation bit, but the rest was GOLDEN!

Resentment and trust have been major issues for me and Mrs Tron as well. 10 years in R for us and doing well. We have our occasional spats. I have to say that the key is to leave the old $hit in the rear view mirror as best you can. Quit the blame game. Forgive each other and commit to not bringing it up any more. We still slip occasionally but try our best to not to let it linger. Try and recognize that what we are doing is toxic and completely unproductive. 

Make a commitment to kiss each other every morning and before you go to sleep and try and deliver positive messages in between. Be supportive and friend.


----------



## pidge70

Posting on here has not helped, all this thread has done is p!ss him off. If we were to separate, that will be the end of us. Up to him now.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Posting on here has not helped, all this thread has done is p!ss him off. If we were to separate, that will be the end of us. Up to him now.


Ugh you guys,you both know you love eachother,you would'nt still be tryng if you did'nt.
I kinda like the idea about a new thread and laying out the issues one by one and
working on them,Clay might be onto something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Mrs. John Adams said:


> no...what they need to do is TALK to each other with respect



That would be nice. When one of us is in a good mood and the other not so much, it's like we feed off the other. Like a damn parasite. I could be having a good day but, the moment I sense he is pissed......BAM! I am instantly angry. Same with him. 

On his way out the door to work he said, "You know, every day we spend together is just another another day probably wasted." Not exactly verbatim but, something to that effect. Just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.....


----------



## pidge70

I told him we needed to speak like mature adults. Every time we try, it devolves into a sh!tstorm. 

I try to hold on to the memories of the good times, of loving times. I had to do the same thing regarding my mother. I know Joe loves me just like I know my mom loves me. I treated Joe like crap for so long, a part of me feels I deserve this now. Another part of me just wants to leave and never look back.


----------



## pidge70

Mrs. John Adams said:


> only you know your heart babe...I am looking from the outside in...and what i see is really ugly.
> 
> You see it from the inside out...tell me What do you see? Open your eyes...what do you really see?


Honestly? What I see is a man that I treated like garbage for many years before my A. I'm not saying he was perfect but, I was a horrible person. I emasculated him in so many ways. I broke him. When he had his RA, I hit rock bottom. I became self aware in regards to my BPD. 

For the first year, year and a half after DDay, it was awful. Joe drank, a lot. He was verbally abusive, he broke things. I took it because I felt I deserved it. I now realize that I started detaching from him due to it. 

When I had my craniotomy and he wasn't there for me, I detached even more. 

I feel he doesn't trust me to be a better person. I think he is scared. He will admit that I was sooooo much better for awhile. When it didn't seem to matter if I was on my best behavior or not, I gave up.


----------



## Row Jimmy

Giving up and being angry won't help anything, nor will flaming each other on here. 

Life is full of difficulties and disappointments but Joe needs to choose to commit to the relationship or just let Pidge go. 

Be kind to each other. Communicate with respect and drop the anger.

It's obvious you love each other so start treating each other that way. 

HINT - Even if just one of you starts giving and showing love and kindness, it can make a positive change happen so get busy doing that! 

Best of luck!


----------



## pidge70

Row Jimmy said:


> Giving up and being angry won't help anything, nor will flaming each other on here.
> 
> Life is full of difficulties and disappointments but Joe needs to choose to commit to the relationship or just let Pidge go.
> 
> Be kind to each other. Communicate with respect and drop the anger.
> 
> It's obvious you love each other so start treating each other that way.
> 
> HINT - Even if just one of you starts giving and showing love and kindness, it can make a positive change happen so get busy doing that!
> 
> Best of luck!



I will give it a shot.....again. It's hard though when you feel like you are the only one making an effort.


----------



## skype

He will test you, Pidge, to see if you really mean it. Keep your eye on the long-term goal, and wear a groove in your tongue from biting it. When you have given it your best effort, then you can decide if there is nothing left in your marriage.


----------



## pidge70

skype said:


> He will test you, Pidge, to see if you really mean it. Keep your eye on the long-term goal, and wear a groove in your tongue from biting it. When you have given it your best effort, then you can decide if there is nothing left in your marriage.


See, that is exactly how I feel. Like I am being tested. I've told him this. I feel like he deliberately will do something he knows will piss me off so he can say, AHA! I knew you couldn't do it.

It is even harder when you are a BPD'er. I have no idea if it is true or if I imagine the crap. I think it was so much easier sometimes before I became "self aware." If I was a b!tch then, I didn't care how he felt.


----------



## Philat

I just feel sorry for you both. You seem stuck in a self-reinforcing cycle of blame that you can't seem to break. I'm really at a loss.


----------



## pidge70

Philat said:


> I just feel sorry for you both. You seem stuck in a self-reinforcing cycle of blame that you can't seem to break. I'm really at a loss.


You and me both sir.


----------



## Philat

pidge70 said:


> You and me both sir.


----------



## Tron

Have you two ever gone on a weekend marriage encounter or retreat?


----------



## pidge70

Tron said:


> Have you two ever gone on a weekend marriage encounter or retreat?


No, I'm not sure something like that would be within our budget.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

pidge70 said:


> S
> 
> It is even harder when you are a BPD'er. I have no idea if it is true or if I imagine the crap. I think it was so much easier sometimes before I became "self aware." If I was a b!tch then, I didn't care how he felt.


That's the hardest part,hon. never knowing if your reactions are reality based or something else. 

I know you won't regress though.You're a strong one and you can do this.


----------



## Hope1964

Hi pidge, I've been following but haven't really known what to say to you. I am so sorry that things have come to this. I can feel your struggles and wish I could make them disappear.


----------



## pidge70

ScarletBegonias said:


> That's the hardest part,hon. never knowing if your reactions are reality based or something else.
> 
> I know you won't regress though.You're a strong one and you can do this.


Thank you again SB. I wish you and I could be actual friends, KWIM? It would be so great to have someone around that I feel actually gets me and can empathize.


----------



## pidge70

Hope1964 said:


> Hi pidge, I've been following but haven't really known what to say to you. I am so sorry that things have come to this. I can feel your struggles and wish I could make them disappear.


Thank you Hope.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

pidge70 said:


> Thank you again SB. I wish you and I could be actual friends, KWIM? It would be so great to have someone around that I feel actually gets me and can empathize.


oh tell me about it! That would be amazing! of course,we'd probably end up leaving everyone and shacking up to support each other LOL


----------



## southern wife

Pidge,

I'm just getting caught up on the latest here (I started reading it yesterday before leaving work and didn't have time to finish and leave a message), but I just read through and I want you to know that I'm sorry for what you both are going through. 

There seems to be so much anger and resentment on both sides. It's hard to make peace with it when it's in your face every day. Sometimes a break, even for a weekend, can be a good thing. It gives some time to cool down and REALLY think with no outside influences. It gives time to reflect on what's important and try to move forward with that in mind. Keep in mind a break doesn't mean it has to be permanent. But it's something to try. What you guys are doing now is not working at all. It's only hurting you both, including your children.


----------



## skype

pidge70 said:


> No, I'm not sure something like that would be within our budget.


I think this would be worth a little credit card debt. You need something to break the log jam. Are there any church programs for marriage help in your area? They might be lower cost. When you both are buried so deeply in resentments, you need outside help to re-align your dynamic.


----------



## pidge70

skype said:


> I think this would be worth a little credit card debt. You need something to break the log jam. Are there any church programs for marriage help in your area? They might be lower cost. When you both are buried so deeply in resentments, you need outside help to re-align your dynamic.


This is why I have stated to him that we need therapy. A third party that is not vested in our marriage. Someone that can call us out on our BS.


----------



## Clay2013

Consider going to a church? There are a lot of people that will help act as a MC that are in the church community. There is nothing wrong with asking for help. 


Clay


----------



## pidge70

Clay2013 said:


> Consider going to a church? There are a lot of people that will help act as a MC that are in the church community. There is nothing wrong with asking for help.
> 
> 
> Clay


Church isn't really our thing. He's a fallen Catholic and I am a fallen Southern Baptist. I appreciate the thought though.


----------



## soulpotato

pidge70 said:


> This is why I have stated to him that we need therapy. A third party that is not vested in our marriage. Someone that can call us out on our BS.


I agree that it's worth some credit card debt. You guys need help right away, something to stop the bleeding. And yes, a trained third party is exactly what is needed. I'm disappointed for you that no one does imago in your area that you know of. I think the structure of it would really help you both. But any decent MC would be a huge asset to you right now. If I were you, I would act to schedule something now and let Joe know that you'd really like for him to go with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

pidge70 said:


> I told him we needed to speak like mature adults. Every time we try, it devolves into a sh!tstorm.
> 
> I try to hold on to the memories of the good times, of loving times. I had to do the same thing regarding my mother. I know Joe loves me just like I know my mom loves me. I treated Joe like crap for so long, a part of me feels I deserve this now. Another part of me just wants to leave and never look back.


This is what MCs are perfect for. You could call a truce and both commit to not talking about issues, sniping, or making any negative comments to each other outside of MC. In your MC sessions the therapist would be able to observe your dynamic, identify where and why things were going awry, and help you both correct it. Not to mention enabling you to have productive discussions about the issues instead of just hurting each other. It's not something you can do on your own, not with all the built-up damage and resentment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



pidge70 said:


> Posting on here has not helped, all this thread has done is p!ss him off. If we were to separate, that will be the end of us. Up to him now.


Not sure I believe that.

Joe, will you commit to IC? You go in saying you want to save your marriage but that you are going to gripe a lot. Tell the IC that their job is to help you get your anger in place and to reframe your thinking and not bolster your anger except to acknowledge it and the pain you feel. They have to affirm your feelings but a good therapist can slowly drag you out of rigid thinking and into something that is easier on you. 

It is like yoga for the emotions.

I still think you could come back together but only if you both work on yourselves add individuals.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



vi_bride04 said:


> I tried R for 5 yrs. We had the whole tit for tat dynamic, lots of resentment on both sides (he cheated, I cheated), and we just couldn't work it out. He is a serial cheater and I left him before he had a chance to cheat on me again...I don't think the serial cheating applies to either one of you.
> 
> Anyways, you HAVE to stop with the competitiveness with each other.
> 
> Have you thought about taking a physical separated break for a few months?


I think Joe could cheat again out of spite. I don't think Pidge would. Pidge got punished in a way that is different han what Joe felt. I think it has a longer lasting effect.

Agreed I the tit for tat crap. It is very immature which is a characteristic this marriage has long suffered from. 

I get wanting to be fairly treated but you can't level a playing field that way.

Since neither of you have the moral high ground all you can do is demand and require the future behavior to be better and that includes saying cut the crap and then walking away. The new relationship has to be built on the realization that you both have the right to hold each other to a higher standard than in the past. If you look at the marriage like a third person, you would want to defend that person rather than put it into danger because you aren't willing to grow up and do what is right.

That's the choice. Do the work or cut your losses.

I think separation is necessary. I think missing each other is necessary. Neither of you appreciate the other or have any perspective that doesn't put your individual pain at the center of your relationship. 

You might want to think about the Christian concept of putting God at the center. If you behave so that God would be pleased it takes the sting out of doing the right thing *for* the other person. The marriage can benefit as a side affect.

It is up to you. Do it or dint but dont treat each other like crap. It doesn't ease your pain but temporarily. If you want a permanent solution get out of your own head and the self focus.

Do things that make you happy in the time apart. Do things for others. Learn gratitude. Remember you are still married and do nothing to dishonor yourself or the other or God. Then reevaluate.

Love is really easy to use as an excuse to stay together. But it is a scapegoat in this case. Fear is in control. Fear and selfishness. Do either of you like who you see in the mirror?

And anyone who wants to give me a hard time will be ignored. I believe what I am saying and I think these two need to grow up and make a proper decision instead of making each other's life worse and wallowing in their pain.

I believe separation can help them. And since I personally know people who have divorced and remarried Iknow it is possible. There are stories about getting back together after separation on this site. It took more guts to separate than it would to stay and accept a situation that is unacceptable. And then it takes the desire to become a better person while apart. That is something that pays dividends whether or not there is ultimate R.


----------



## hopefulgirl

All of our situations are different, but some aspects at times "ring a bell." Your situation involves mental health issues and the dual problems of trauma and grief that invade the thoughts and ramp up the emotions of a betrayed spouse - these "themes" ring a bell for me.

Shirley Glass in her book NOT Just Friends discusses her "trauma model of recovery and healing" because even if we don't technically have all-out diagnosable PTSD, we BS's react physiologically just like people who have it do. So having a counselor who understands infidelity as well as PTSD is a plus.

IF there is an agreement and commitment on both sides to reconcile - even though you know the work is going to be hard - and there is total transparency so you don't have the worry about any more cheating hanging over your heads, then I highly recommend a skilled marriage friendly therapist (that's one who is skilled at handling conflict and will work with you to save your marriage even when there are times when one or even both of you may feel discouraged). And MC is preferable to IC because (this is from the website of the National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists):

_Individual therapy may undermine more marriages than even poor couples therapy. Because relationship problems are the main problem people bring to individual therapists, individual therapists are treating marriages whether or not they realize it. Unless the therapist has values that support marriage and is careful not to turn the non-present partner into a villain, individual therapy can undermine a marriage. Every experienced marriage therapist has heard these stories: a spouse goes into individual therapy, receives support for a one-sided view of the marriage problems, and becomes increasingly pessimistic about the marriage. The therapist then questions why the person stays in an obviously bad marriage. The other spouse is clueless that the marriage is unraveling in therapy, and is not informed until it is too late. These therapists do not intend harm, but often their orientation is to the personal happiness of their individual client who is distressed in a marriage, without enough regard for the welfare of the other spouse…._


----------



## Lon

Pidge, and joe too if you are reading along, I'm sorry to hear that your troubles are still eating your marriage.

I haven't spent much time on TAM, and when I do I stick to the old threads that I still follow up on. I noticed you liked a couple of my photos Pidge, so I came to see what is happening in you and Joe's lives - I was saddened to see the pain you are both in.

Resentment is a brutal thing to get over, all it takes is for one person to decide to "check out" as a coping marriage to cause even more marital destruction.

My failed marriage never overcame the resentment, but I will tell you that separating did absolutely nothing to repair the relationship only resolved the path apart from each other. I respectfully disagree with clipclop on the idea of walking away for reflection, breathing space or whatever, and certainly not on the grounds that you are "both" unhappy.

All that matters is whether you want to be in a relationship with Joe, and whether Joe wants to be in one with you. Then each of you have to work on becoming aware of whether your actions towards each other bring life to the other, or suck it out. Everything you do as a couple has to bring life to the other, and at the times when it doesn't you need to acknowledge it and let it go so as to not breed resentment about it. If you are checked in, then be all the way in else you know what you have to do. I honestly hope that you can both check all the way in - that is the only way to get over the resentment.

Good luck, and lots of love...
Lon


----------



## clipclop2

Seems to me that when that person goes into IC and didn't listen to the therapist on how to improve themselves it is because the person really wants to leave the entire timebut needs someone else to pin it on.

If you go into ic to fix your own issues and are honest about them and in recounting your week the marriage benefits.

If Joe doesn't want to go to MC and he is clear about his goals IC will be beneficial. I think for Joe it would be easier to let the marriage go. 

Honestly, I think separation is their only hope. If it leads to divorce it is because at least one of them wants that divorce. You just can't force this to work by forcing togetherness that seems to be very destructive togetherness. 

I also bridle when I see people who are unwilling to put money/ investment in their marriage. If their child were ill they would find the money, no question. 

I don't see that these two have any perspective. 

Take a 6 month lease on a place and reevaluate, Joe. When you both get some time apart and that constant tension subsides you will be able to see more clearly not only what you want but what you can realistically do. Those are some sober decisions to make. The second one is the most difficult because it requires self knowledge and absolute honesty.

I subscribe to the PTSD model of many traumas, including infidelity. There are also people who are more prone to it because of their background. This is why I think you have to deal with yourself to be able to get over traumas that can cause PTSD. You know if you are one of those people by what happened to you as a child. I suspect that other people without that childhood can get better just dealing with what caused the PTSD. I dint know if anyone actually it gets well. This probably also makes it harder for some people to recover... It is always there and you have to rely on inner strength and mindfulness to not react.

Those are my theories, anyway.


----------



## Amplexor

Joe and Pidge, it takes time. You may know that my wife and I are nearly 7 years post D-Day. R took 3.5 years to complete. The marriage struggled for 10 years before that. I can't offer much, that anyone else hasn't already other than we are now happier in the marriage than we ever could have imagined a few years ago. It was all worth it and neither of us have any regrets about staying together. 

It was a long painful ride for us both but one of the things we did was let go of the past. Her sexual denial of me for years, her EA, her emotional disconnect, my anger management issues, passive aggressive behavior and our brutal alcohol fueled screaming matches. Those are in the past and have never been brought up. Never! Even when we are in conflict. At some point you both have to let go of it to be successful. 

Maybe MC or IC can help you with that but neither is a miracle drug. It will only take you so far and then you just have to gut it out together as we did. Forgiveness and empathy will carry you a long way. Best of luck and don't leave anything in the tank.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

pidge70 said:


> No, I'm not sure something like that would be within our budget.


I assume you both work and have 2 cars. If not, pretend for a minute. Now also pretend that one of the vehicles crapped out and needed $1500 worth of repairs. I guarantee you that you'd find a way to come up with the repair money, because how else are you going to get to work etc.

So I guess my question is, where is your marriage in regards to importance in your life? (I know the answer already because you're hear and I can see the struggle....but I think you need to reassess a bit).

I'll give you some personal experience. My exW and I had a very bad relationship. She treated me horribly and I ended up returning the favor. I was finally at the end of my rope and realized our relationship was in trouble, and she did too. I said to her we should try MC and her response was "We don't have the money".

That answer told me her priorities.

Good luck to you both. It seems like you both want this to work. Love each other, but are constantly putting yourself through they same circles and can never actually make progress.


----------



## joe kidd

I have agreed to MC. Something inside has to give. Things aren't going well doing this on our own. Separation? No. I'm not putting my kids through that. If we do it , it will be once so we are not yanking them back and forth. I HAVE to stop holding on to the past. If I can't we are doomed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

joe kidd said:


> I have agreed to MC. Something inside has to give. Things aren't going well doing this on our own. Separation? No. I'm not putting my kids through that. If we do it , it will be once so we are not yanking them back and forth. I HAVE to stop holding on to the past. If I can't we are doomed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a sign of a good man. Find a good MC with some experience in infidelity and PD's and give it all you've got. You won't regret it either way this marriage goes.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> I have agreed to MC. Something inside has to give. Things aren't going well doing this on our own. Separation? No. I'm not putting my kids through that. If we do it , it will be once so we are not yanking them back and forth. I HAVE to stop holding on to the past. If I can't we are doomed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you haven't agreed to it as some sort of compromise. You should want to do this if you think it is something that you can use to give life to Pidge and your relationship. I agree you have to stop holding onto the past because it is preventing you from appreciating the blessings you have in the present. Also I don't foresee doom at all for any of you, you are at a low point and whatever the future holds will be better. Just hurry up and decide if you are all in or all out already.


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> I have agreed to MC. Something inside has to give. Things aren't going well doing this on our own. Separation? No. I'm not putting my kids through that. If we do it , it will be once so we are not yanking them back and forth. I HAVE to stop holding on to the past. If I can't we are doomed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have been yanking your family back and forth already. 

Glad you agree to MC but I really think you could use some IC, to o.

Are you prepared for how difficult MC is going to be? It is going to be hard. Be aware of that so you aren't shocked and disappointed when it gets darker than it feels now for a while. That doesn't mean therapy isn't working. It means you are doing the work facing yourselves.

Of course if you don't begin leaving therapy feeling better about your marriage at some point you have to accept that you can't go on. If you go into therapy with the specific goal of succeeding you have a better chance. You aren't going to see if you should stay married. That decision will present itself on its own as a byproduct of working to save the marriage so you don't and shouldn't have to look for it specifically. 

Good luck! 

Good luck finding the right therapist. Interview some before you choose. A bad therapist is dangerous. Look at this as life and death and choose the one that is most skilled just as you would do with a surgeon.


----------



## Harken Banks

Best wishes, Joe and Pidge. I have started and deleted several posts that would have been to this thread. AMU and I have also been all over the map with this stuff. We were in divorce mediation only last month. Well, I might have something more to say later, but for now, I like you guys and I wish you the best.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> Best wishes, Joe and Pidge. I have started and deleted several posts that would have been to this thread. AMU and I have also been all over the map with this stuff. We were in divorce mediation only last month. Well, I might have something more to say later, but for now, I like you guys and I wish you the best.


Thank you Harken, I appreciate that.


----------



## calvin

Me and CSS hope things are going better for you guys.
Prayers to both of you and the fam.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Forgive eachother,then forgive yourselves and start anew.
Bury the old marriage and find a way to get into MC and work together
on a new marriage.
You both have the foundation,the love is there.
I wasn't crazy about going to MC but it did help and now with CSS's new shift I'm
Looking forward to it.
That and going out after for something to eat and a well needed couple drinks.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

Pidge and Joe -- I don't know your story but I do know R is a very hard road to travel. Thirty years when my husband first cheated, and I made the decision to stay, marriage counseling wasn't common and we didn't do it. Instead we did a lot of rug-sweeping. And pretending. Perhaps if we had seen a professional to help us there wouldn't have been DD2 which led to our divorce last year. 

I know everything there is to know about failed R and subsequent D after 45.5 years of marriage. I don't know anything about a long-term successful marriage. But I know some people have them and if you want one then you need to get help.


----------



## pidge70

Openminded said:


> Pidge and Joe -- I don't know your story but I do know R is a very hard road to travel. Thirty years when my husband first cheated, and I made the decision to stay, marriage counseling wasn't common and we didn't do it. Instead we did a lot of rug-sweeping. And pretending. Perhaps if we had seen a professional to help us there wouldn't have been DD2 which led to our divorce last year.
> 
> I know everything there is to know about failed R and subsequent D after 45.5 years of marriage. I don't know anything about a long-term successful marriage. But I know some people have them and if you want one then you need to get help.


I'm sorry for what happened in your marriage......

Joe and I can do this.


----------



## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I can do this.


I have no doubt.


----------



## Openminded

pidge70 said:


> I'm sorry for what happened in your marriage......
> 
> Joe and I can do this.


Thanks. I have a much happier life now. 

You and Joe absolutely can do this.


----------



## joe kidd

Things have been going well. I'm going to actually take one of my 3wks of vacation time this year instead of cashing them in. Haven't taken time off work since 2010. 

The plan is to spend the week before Xmas in Orlando . 

We have talked about this because she knows this will be a trigger for me. 

Time to make new memories.


----------



## Tron

How's counseling?


----------



## joe kidd

Tron said:


> How's counseling?


Still shopping. I think a bad one would do tremendous harm .


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Still shopping. I think a bad one would do tremendous harm .


 That's some good news,been thinking about you two.
Our second counselor was ok,third was pretty good.
The first one told us it always the fault of the betrayed spouse when the other cheats.
We droped him quick so yeah shop around.
We're going back soon for awhile after we take care of some other stuff that poped up
Glad you guys are going to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

No masses found in my bladder.....still have to get more testing done. Yay me!


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> No masses found in my bladder.....still have to get more testing done. Yay me!


Oh thank God! I've been praying for you a lot. I will keep praying that the good news continues.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Oh thank God! I've been praying for you a lot. I will keep praying that the good news continues.


Thanks bfree, you are a good guy!


----------



## calvin

Excellent!!!!
Looks like all the prayers are being answerd!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

I'm so happy that you got some good news, Pidge!


----------



## clipclop2

That's excellent! Whew!

What can be done about the prolapse?


----------



## carpenoctem

Pidge:

Just to tell you that this _Quaffir_ also said a prayer for you.

*May you have only those troubles that you can handle.*

Wish you the best of luck, and a lot of patience.


----------



## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> That's excellent! Whew!
> 
> What can be done about the prolapse?


I'm not sure. I have a CT scheduled for May 1st to check on the cysts in my kidneys. Still freaking peeing like 3x an hour.


----------



## pidge70

carpenoctem said:


> Pidge:
> 
> Just to tell you that this _Quaffir_ also said a prayer for you.
> 
> *May you have only those troubles that you can handle.*
> 
> Wish you the best of luck, and a lot of patience.


Thank you.


----------



## pidge70

I get up, I go to work. I get off work, pick our son up from daycare. I no longer give a crap about cleaning the house and I'm OCD. I am actually pissed that the urologist didn't find anything. I know I am suffering from depression, I don't care. I wouldn't ever try to kill myself again but, it would have been nice to have had cancer. Sad huh? I think all the time that I never should have went to the hospital, should have refused surgery. Maybe, just maybe, that was God's way of giving me an out. 14 failed suicide attempts since I was 14yrs old. I am one broken individual and I no longer care to work on it.


----------



## carpenoctem

pidge70 said:


> I get up, I go to work. I get off work, pick our son up from daycare. I no longer give a crap about cleaning the house and I'm OCD. I am actually pissed that the urologist didn't find anything. I know I am suffering from depression, I don't care. I wouldn't ever try to kill myself again but, *it would have been nice to have had cancer.* Sad huh? I think all the time that I never should have went to the hospital, should have refused surgery. Maybe, just maybe, that was God's way of giving me an out. *14 failed suicide attempts since I was 14yrs old. I am one broken individual and I no longer care to work on it.*


I really don't know what to say to that, Lady.

Please accept a hug, and no words.

Maybe God will surprise you tomorrow.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> I get up, I go to work. I get off work, pick our son up from daycare. I no longer give a crap about cleaning the house and I'm OCD. I am actually pissed that the urologist didn't find anything. I know I am suffering from depression, I don't care. I wouldn't ever try to kill myself again but, it would have been nice to have had cancer. Sad huh? I think all the time that I never should have went to the hospital, should have refused surgery. Maybe, just maybe, that was God's way of giving me an out. 14 failed suicide attempts since I was 14yrs old. I am one broken individual and I no longer care to work on it.


 Reading this saddens me,I reall feel for you pidge,joe also.
I still have faith you guys can make it through this and wipe the slate clean and
start over.
I know its hard for joe,he fvcked up with the revenge affair,it solves nothing,it makes
this whole cluster fvck worse actually.
I like both of you,please get into counseling,its worth it.
Still praying for you both every night at bed time.
This can be worked through,its hard as hell but you guys CAN do this.
You both are in my thought a lot.
The tit for tat needs to stop.
Ugh...care about you both.
Good people who fvcked up,it does not define you guys at all.
You both have the same goals so please work together as a team.
Praying extra hard for you pidge,I won't forget when you had my back when I
was half nuts.
Joe,thank you for being there also.
I consider you guys friends,your good people.
Please don't give up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Outstanding day today!


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Outstanding day today!


How's that bro?
What's up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Just a great day together.


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Just a great day together.


Good I hope you guys did have a better day.
Counseling,I used to think it was for pvssies,I was wrong,its a valuable tool joe,
its also and investment in your marriage,family and the future.
You strike me as a man who can handle any task that has been thrown before him.
I know you guys are in a fvcked up place,but neither one of you strike me as someone
who throws in the towel very easily at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Prescription for a great morning. Standing at the keurig waiting for it to spit out coffee only to turn around and see her in only a robe giving me bedroom eyes. 
Ill take that every Sunday .


----------



## warlock07

pidge70 said:


> 14 failed suicide attempts since I was 14yrs old. I am one broken individual and I no longer care to work on it.


Someone really wants you to stay alive


----------



## calvin

joe kidd said:


> Prescription for a great morning. Standing at the keurig waiting for it to spit out coffee only to turn around and see her in only a robe giving me bedroom eyes.
> Ill take that every Sunday .


 There you go joe.
Pidge is remorseful amd she cares about you,I see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carpenoctem

joe kidd said:


> Prescription for a great morning. Standing at the keurig waiting for it to spit out coffee only to turn around and see her in only a robe giving me bedroom eyes.
> Ill take that every Sunday .



Ah. *You like your coffee with a lot of cream* on Sundays.


Me too, Sir.


----------



## pidge70

Things are better. My starting school this Aug might be hard. We will have to keep on top of things.


----------



## pidge70

Good day together. Joe and Lil Joe did yard work while I cleaned the house. Then I overrode my OCD tendencies to clean out and organize cabinets and we all went to the park. We fed ducks and geese and then played on the playground.


----------



## GusPolinski

Funny story...

I was chased off by a rather freakishly large duck while at the park w/ Mrs. Gus a number of years ago. We were near the pond's edge feeding bread to a number of them when Alpha Lord Mecha-Duck suddenly became aware of my presence. In a fit of rage, clearly unsatisfied w/ my meager offerings of store-brand white bread and light praise, he charged me w/ a primordial fury not seen since the days of Genghis Khan.

Seriously, this duck was straight up primordial. Looking back at that day, I have no doubt that he is the duck from whose loins all other ducks sprang.


----------



## pidge70

GusPolinski said:


> Funny story...
> 
> I was chased off by a rather freakishly large duck while at the park w/ Mrs. Gus a number of years ago. We were near the pond's edge feeding bread to a number of them when Alpha Lord Mecha-Duck suddenly became aware of my presence. In a fit of rage, clearly unsatisfied w/ my meager offerings of store-brand white bread and light praise, he charged me w/ a primordial fury not seen since the days of Genghis Khan.
> 
> Seriously, this duck was straight up primordial. Looking back at that day, I have no doubt that he is the duck from whose loins all other ducks sprang.


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CharlieParker

In first grade we took a field trip to "Turtle Back Zoo". I tried to pet a swan. They mofo bit my finger, nearly off. Swans have really f'ing sharp teeth in their beaks.


----------



## joe kidd

Yeah we gave the geese who hissed at us a wide berth.


----------



## calvin

I like you both,I'm glad to hear things are better.
I like ducks bt I hate geese,those bastards can be mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

We have some freakishly ugly ducks (I think they are) at our lake - they scare me!


----------



## carpenoctem

pidge70 said:


> Good day together.* Joe and Lil Joe did yard work* while *I cleaned the house*. Then *I overrode* my OCD tendencies to *clean ou*t and organize cabinets and we all *went to the park*. We* fed ducks and geese* and then *played on the playground.*



*Lady, were you describing an idyllic evening, or is that meta-talk for some super-elaborate sex routine (**Joe & Little Joe doing yard work, cleaning the house, overriding tendencies, you cleaning out, going to the park, feeding ducks & geese and playing on the ground and so on*)?

Was all that Victorian-era double entendre’?

Either way, you guys had fun. Good to hear.


----------



## carpenoctem

where I live, we don't have the usage 'ugly duckling'. we just call them 'children'.
I was one too.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> We have some freakishly ugly ducks (I think they are) at our lake - they scare me!


Geese scare the heck out of me. Hissing little SOBS.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



GusPolinski said:


> Seriously, this duck was straight up primordial. Looking back at that day, I have no doubt that he is the duck from whose loins all other ducks sprang.


Duck Norris.


----------



## carpenoctem

*Yeah. No respect whatsoever for the duckworth lewis method.*

Duck Tyson? Duck Johnson? Duck Dempsey? Ducky Marciano? *Duckie Chan???* 

*What the duck, there are so many.*


----------



## GusPolinski

Lon said:


> Duck Norris.


Ha ha! I just read that to Mrs. Gus, and we're both laughing.

Actually, it turns out I'm a dork. I was regaling Mrs. Gus w/ this story a couple of days ago and she informed me that Mr. Norris was a goose. Apparently she warned me, but I didn't listen. _Classic_ Gus.

Either way, that goose was a d!ck. I should've kicked him in his f*cking beak and bounced. Instead I just ran while my wife laughed at me.


----------



## pidge70

What a "fowl" thread this has deteriorated into......:rofl:


----------



## calvin

One place we go camping has a lot of ducks and a lot of Geese.
The Geese have taken over our campsite before,mean bastards and they don't back
down easy.
They do drive by crappings and will attack you.
Geese in da hood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

I admit it...I hate geese. They scare me to death. Especially when they are all like this, angry and charging:


----------



## GusPolinski

Agh!!! AC, you're triggering me!!!


----------



## joe kidd

Geese are tasty. They know I think they are and stay away from me.


----------



## larry.gray

When I was a kid one of my friends made the comment that he was just going to grab them by the neck when some started chasing us. 

He did, and it turns out was not hard at all for him to grab one by the neck. The problem was that he now had a mad goose in his hands and not sure what to do with it. 

They were at an impass for a few minutes. He finally chucked the thing and ran like mad.


----------



## larry.gray

Hey pidge - is it time to change the thread title?


----------



## pidge70

larry.gray said:


> Hey pidge - is it time to change the thread title?


It would seem so. 

Things are calm for now. I'm really hoping when I start school in Aug we can keep it together. Mostly me. I know I am going to be even more exhausted than I am now. I just have to keep reminding myself that I am doing it not only for me but, for the good of my family.


----------



## calvin

I have a hankering for Grey Goose vodka now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> It would seem so.
> 
> Things are calm for now. I'm really hoping when I start school in Aug we can keep it together. Mostly me. I know I am going to be even more exhausted than I am now. I just have to keep reminding myself that I am doing it not only for me but, for the good of my family.


 I know how you feel.
Wish you guys would get some MC,you both ned to lean on eachother and share
the burdens life throws at us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Today was a good one. Did the grocery shopping together, cleaned out a few closets and whatnot.

Last night was bad. I was up all night throwing up and my left kidney was killing me. Got a 3mm kidney stone and Holy Hell! Poor Joe had to hear me crying and I felt bad. I went to sleep on the couch but, it is downstairs and I had to keep getting up to go the bathroom. Ended up back in bed and so far today, no pain. My stomach is killing me though.


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Today was a good one. Did the grocery shopping together, cleaned out a few closets and whatnot.
> 
> Last night was bad. I was up all night throwing up and my left kidney was killing me. Got a 3mm kidney stone and Holy Hell! Poor Joe had to hear me crying and I felt bad. I went to sleep on the couch but, it is downstairs and I had to keep getting up to go the bathroom. Ended up back in bed and so far today, no pain. My stomach is killing me though.


 Ouch!
Glad your better,hope you get better more.
Inm seeing some progressI hope I'm right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Stones are the worst.


----------



## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> Stones are the worst.


That they are. Lucky me, I have polycystic kidney disease so, I'm more susceptible to them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

So, found an interesting article that might explain my loss of sex drive. Apparently my brain surgery might be the culprit. It seems likely as it was after the surgery my drive tanked.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Information is power Pidge!


----------



## clipclop2

Can you retain your brain with lots of exercise?


----------



## clipclop2

LOL! I meant re TRAIN your brain.


----------



## pidge70

Reading Harken's thread, sounds so much like Joe and I. Although Joe doesn't drink near the quantity AMU says Harken does, it still causes problems. I wanted to respond on that thread, but, I don't think what I have to say would go over all that well.


----------



## Harken Banks

Probably not, but it's just words. Hope you guys are well. Say hi to Joe.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> Probably not, but it's just words. Hope you guys are well. Say hi to Joe.


Joe and I rarely talk. It's better that way. I'm tired of the yelling. Rather, I am tired of yelling.


----------



## pidge70

Honest question here, how does one get over massive resentment when the person you are resentful towards just keeps piling on more? 

Just for a little levity, I am sure I missed a comma in the proceeding sentence. No worries, one of my classes this semester is English, I shall learn.....lol


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



pidge70 said:


> Honest question here, how does one get over massive resentment when the person you are resentful towards just keeps piling on more?
> 
> Just for a little levity, I am sure I missed a comma in the proceeding sentence. No worries, one of my classes this semester is English, I shall learn.....lol


Piling on more what? You can't give someone resentment. You can do or say things that causes someone to feel resentment.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Piling on more what? You can't give someone resentment. You can do or say things that causes someone to feel resentment.


I am aware of that. I think most people will understand what I was trying to convey.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



pidge70 said:


> I am aware of that. I think most people will understand what I was trying to convey.


Maybe I'm posting too much in Harkens thread where I have to clarify everything. My point is that without knowing the cause of the resentment it's very hard to offer advice. Would it be fair to say that you and Joe are engaging in "Love Busters?"


----------



## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> Honest question here, how does one get over massive resentment when the person you are resentful towards just keeps piling on more?
> 
> Just for a little levity, I am sure I missed a comma in the proceeding sentence. No worries, one of my classes this semester is English, I shall learn.....lol


Acceptance, I think. You pay your money and take your chance. You chose someone as your spouse and with whom you would live out the days, raise a family, even. Now you can break the promise, but that is on you.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> Acceptance, I think. You pay your money and take your chance. You chose someone as your spouse and with whom you would live out the days, raise a family, even. Now you can break the promise, but that is on you.


Nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> Nice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, consider the context.


----------



## MattMatt

clipclop2 said:


> LOL! I meant re TRAIN your brain.


Actually, the answer to your questions is yes to both.:smthumbup:


----------



## clipclop2

So things are bad again Pidge?


----------



## pidge70

Pretty much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paladin

pidge70 said:


> Honest question here, how does one get over massive resentment when the person you are resentful towards just keeps piling on more?
> 
> Just for a little levity, I am sure I missed a comma in the proceeding sentence. No worries, one of my classes this semester is English, I shall learn.....lol


Work on identifying the cause of the resentment and communicating how you feel. Do your best to not conflate the issues that cause you to feel resentment, so you can address each occurrence without having them amplified by one another. Work from oldest to newest, but identify and mention the new issues as they occur. If you know what he needs to do in order for you to feel less resentment, speak of it often and as clearly as you can. If no progress is made, consider keeping some distance from each other for a short time.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



pidge70 said:


> Pretty much.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pidge, have you and Joe both read "Love Busters" or any other similar text? You and Joe need to be able to pause and identify the incidents that are causing the resentment and deal with them in real time. Resentment comes from letting these issues fester. If you both want to work this out it can be done effectively.


----------



## pidge70

Paladin said:


> Work on identifying the cause of the resentment and communicating how you feel. Do your best to not conflate the issues that cause you to feel resentment, so you can address each occurrence without having them amplified by one another. Work from oldest to newest, but identify and mention the new issues as they occur. If you know what he needs to do in order for you to feel less resentment, speak of it often and as clearly as you can. If no progress is made, consider keeping some distance from each other for a short time.


I've tried this, to no avail.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Pidge, have you and Joe both read "Love Busters" or any other similar text? You and Joe need to be able to pause and identify the incidents that are causing the resentment and deal with them in real time. Resentment comes from letting these issues fester. If you both want to work this out it can be done effectively.


I tried to read His Needs Her Needs. I could not get through it. Also, another TAM member sent me the Love Dare book last year. I couldn't do that either. Maybe it was the religious overtones. I did get Joe to take the Love Languages test. Not that it did any good. He won't read anything.


----------



## manfromlamancha

pidge, is there one place where your story is laid out chronologically. I have been following this thread and my heart goes out to you both. But, apart from the fact that you had an affair, followed by his revenge affair, and that you are not well and he doesn't seem to care, I know very little as to what happened and why. I would like to offer my thoughts but cannot without knowing what actually happened.

In any case, I do wish you healing as soon as possible. I passed two kidney stones and they were hell - my wife could not understand what I was going through (one of them in a hotel room while travelling on business).

Take care.


----------



## pidge70

manfromlamancha said:


> pidge, is there one place where your story is laid out chronologically. I have been following this thread and my heart goes out to you both. But, apart from the fact that you had an affair, followed by his revenge affair, and that you are not well and he doesn't seem to care, I know very little as to what happened and why. I would like to offer my thoughts but cannot without knowing what actually happened.
> 
> In any case, I do wish you healing as soon as possible. I passed two kidney stones and they were hell - my wife could not understand what I was going through (one of them in a hotel room while travelling on business).
> 
> Take care.


We each had our own threads at one time. I deleted mine due to a overzealous Christian who felt the need to constantly undermine me. I'm not sure why Joe deleted his. 

Thank you for the well wishes though, I appreciate it. 

I imagine passing a stone was way worse on you than it was on me. I feel for you.


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> Joe and I rarely talk. It's better that way. I'm tired of the yelling. Rather, I am tired of yelling.


Then stop yelling.


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> Honest question here, how does one get over massive resentment when the person you are resentful towards just keeps piling on more?


By taking responsibility for your life and your own happiness, preferably through the use of an excellent psychologist (i.e. most highly trained therapist) who will teach you how to have healthy boundaries and enact strong consequences so that your situation is turned around and you no longer need to be resentful (because the other person is losing their grip over you).


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> I tried to read His Needs Her Needs. I could not get through it. Also, another TAM member sent me the Love Dare book last year. I couldn't do that either. Maybe it was the religious overtones. I did get Joe to take the Love Languages test. Not that it did any good. He won't read anything.


As the wife of a man who refuses to do anything and a wife who has gone through years and years of therapy, I'll give you the secret: stop giving him your power. Don't put your happiness on whether HE reads anything or even changes. Seek other solutions. Odds are good that he will then either run to catch up (do what you need) to not lose you, or he won't and you'll then know you're better off without him and can then seek happiness on your own without the negative influence.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> By taking responsibility for your life and your own happiness, preferably through the use of an excellent psychologist (i.e. most highly trained therapist) who will teach you how to have healthy boundaries and enact strong consequences so that your situation is turned around and you no longer need to be resentful (because the other person is losing their grip over you).


Joe pretty much pissed all over the main boundary I had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

So what was the consequence you were supposed to give him when he did that?


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> So what was the consequence you were supposed to give him when he did that?


I never had one. Makes it seem more like a parent/child situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

No, actually any therapist would tell you that boundaries and consequences are important for ALL people to have, and it's what keeps relationships safe and healthy. 



> Most people think of boundaries in marriage as bondage. In reality they are the key to keeping your marriage healthy. Think of a four-way stop or a railroad crossing signal. These are in place to protect you from danger.


Boundaries in Marriage


----------



## turnera

> When you have clear boundaries, you know where you end and your partner begins, according to Cloud and Townsend. You also know that you’re not at the mercy of your spouse’s behavior or their problems.
> 
> Boundaries are really about you.
> 
> “When you build a fence around your yard, you do not build it to figure out the boundaries of your neighbor’s yard so that you can dictate to him how he is to behave. You build it around your own yard so that you can maintain control of what happens to your own property,” according to the authors.
> 
> That’s also how personal boundaries work. You can’t control how your spouse speaks to you. But you can control how you behave when they speak to you in that way. For instance, if they start yelling or calling you names, you can hang up the phone or leave the room.
> 
> In other words, you determine what you will and won’t tolerate or be exposed to. And you set consequences. Another example is eating dinner by yourself when your spouse is late, again. Other consequences may be more severe, such as separating.
> 
> Boundaries also may include emotional distance, such as: “When you can be kind, we can be close again,” or “When you show you are serious about getting some help, I will feel safe enough to open up to you again.”
> 
> Setting Boundaries with Yourself
> It’s also important to set boundaries with yourself (i.e., not trying to change your spouse but focusing on changing yourself).
> 
> In the book Cloud and Townsend include an example of a husband who was regularly late for dinner with his wife and kids. His wife tried cajoling and nagging him to come home earlier.
> 
> But he only got defensive or told her she was overreacting. After a while, she decided to change her attitude and actions: She was going to be less angry about his lateness and more caring; and if he was going to be late, she’d eat dinner with the kids and put his food in the fridge.
> 
> She talked to her husband about her plan. He wasn’t happy about eating microwaved dinners, but she said he was welcome to rearrange his schedule to eat when the family did.
> 
> After a few days of eating many microwaved meals, he started coming home on time. He said it was because his wife was a whole lot nicer to him, so he wanted to be home – and he really hated reheating his dinner.
> 
> The Concept of “You Are not Me”
> According to Cloud and Townsend, another key part of boundaries is the idea of “you are not me.” Your spouse isn’t an extension of you, and they’re not here exclusively to meet your needs.
> 
> Love breaks down when we don’t see our spouses as people but as “objects of our own needs.” This also means that when your spouse comes to you and reveals how they’re feeling – say about not feeling close to you – you don’t interpret it as an accusation and get defensive. Rather, you empathize.
> 
> “To have good boundaries is to be separate enough from the other person that you can allow her to have her own experience without reacting with your own. Such a clear stance of separateness allows you not to react, but to care and empathize.”
> 
> This also includes respecting each other’s differences – even when you don’t like them. Cloud and Townsend share the story of a husband who didn’t want to attend the same church as his wife, because he just couldn’t connect to the service. She viewed this as an affront, and believed that if he truly loved her, he would go.
> 
> Boundaries are the foundation of healthy relationships. They give partners the opportunity to grow as individuals and as a couple.


How to Build Better Boundaries in Your Marriage | World of Psychology


----------



## turnera

> Why are boundaries important?
> 
> Clear boundaries keep a marriage loving, respectful and healthy. Clarity about what's mine, what's yours, and what's ours means that you won't intrude on my space and I won't intrude on yours. I have my clothes, you have yours. I have my thoughts, which I may or may not share with you, and you have yours. Neither of us gets to say what we think the other person thinks, because thoughts belong to the person who has them.
> 
> Boundaries help you also to define what will stay in and what will be kept outside of your individual and marital worlds. For instance, name-calling when someone feels angry hopefully will be something that you will mututally agree to keep outside of your home so your home stays an emotionally safe place.
> 
> If you are like most couples, you will want to agree to keep others out of your bedroom. Sexual connecting will be reserved just for the two of you. You will safeguard sexual feelings and actions within the boundaries of what is yours as a couple, with no one else allowed to share this cherished part of your lives.
> 
> Jointly agreed upon boundaries regarding what you will and will not do in the marriage and the family unit insure that you will keep what is appropriate inside the boundaries and keep out what could be hurtful to either of you as individuals, to the marriage or to the family. Clear boundaries lend stability and strength to your family and marriage.
> What are individual boundaries?
> 
> Only you have authority over what you think, feel, and do. This boundary around yourself is a fundamental boundary that enables you to feel safe.
> 
> Spouses do cross this boundary sometimes, generally without realizing it. Saying, "You shouldn't have put the dark laundry in with the whites!" crosses the boundary between the two of you. Saying, "Woops! Some of the dark clothes got washed in with the whites!" talks about the same problem but doesn't cross the boundary. Which would you rather receive?
> 
> The word "crossover" refers to when one of you crosses over into the other person's personal space. Any time you or your spouse tells the other what you think the other thinks, feels, or does is a cross-over.
> 
> Cross-overs can be avoided by sticking to the "spotlight rule." Imagine when the two of you are talking that whoever is speaking is lit up in a bright spotlight while the rest of the stage is dark. The person in the spotlight can only talk about the person in the spotlight. That is, you can talk only about yourself. I-messages are fine (I think..., I feel..., My concern is.... I would like to...). You-messages, by contrast, would cross over the boundary and are not fine. When you are in the light, you may offer your opinions, reactions, and emotions.
> How then do you switch the focus to your partner's thoughts and feelings? Ask questions. When your partner replies, the spotlight switches onto your partner.
> 
> The basic rule of boundaries in marriage communicating: Talk about yourself (your thoughts, feelings or actions), or you can ask about the other. No one gets to talk about the other.
> 
> The basic rule means that spouses can talk about their own feelings. That is helpful. Talking about the other person with blame, criticism, complaints and any other kind of finger-pointing or finger-wagging would be out of bounds. So is telling your spouse what to do. That too would be a cross-over that violates your partner's boundaries.
> 
> Setting individual boundaries also means you are responsible for deciding what you will let into your personal sphere. For example, if your spouse becomes angry, you can decide how much negative emotion you are willing to listen to. After that point, rather than telling your partner to calm down (a cross-over) it is up to you to exit the situation. One graceful exit strategy is to stand up, saying "Excuse me, I need to get a drink of water; be back in a bit," and walk quickly out of the line of fire.
> Setting boundaries around yourself, your couplehood, and your family ensures their health and safety for all of you. Boundaries protect what they surround. In this case, boundaries protect your personal identity and self-esteem, your marriage, and your family. It may feel uncomfortable to affirm boundaries around yourself, especially in marriage where, from the beginning, couples are told that "we are one." Yet asserting your personal boundaries in a respectful way, by saying what you are doing rather than by telling the other person what to do, increases both your personal happiness and the happiness of your marriage.


Guide to Setting Boundaries in Your Relationship - Married.Answers.com


----------



## pidge70

I inevitably get told that he is a grown ass man and can do what he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

And about consequences:


> It is impossible to set boundaries without setting consequences. If you are setting boundaries in a relationship, and you are not yet at a point where you are ready to leave the relationship then don't say that you will leave. Never state something that you are not willing to follow through with. To set boundaries and not enforce them just gives the other person an excuse to continue in the same old behavior. For example: “If you call me names I will confront you about your behavior each and every time and will share my feelings with you. I will not tolerate verbal abuse. If you continue this behavior, I will weigh my options, including leaving this relationship. I do not deserve this and I will not put up with it any longer”.
> 
> “If you continue to break your plans with me by not showing up or calling me at the last minute to cancel, I will confront you about this behavior and share my feelings. If this behavior continues, I will consider it to mean that you do not respect me or this relationship and I will have no contact with you for a month, until we can both evaluate and figure out our priorities. If I chose to get back in touch with you, and the behavior continues, we will no longer be in any type of relationship together”.
> 
> “When I ask you what is wrong, and you say “nothing”, but then proceed to slam doors or kick the wall, and seem to be angry, I feel angry or frustrated that you refuse to communicate properly with me as if I am supposed to read your mind. If something is bothering you, I will trust you to let me know after you have spent some time cooling off alone. If you continue to punish me with your silence or fits, I will tell you how it makes me feel. If this behavior continues, I will weigh my options for this relationship. I do not deserve this type of behavior and will not put up with it any longer”.
> 
> Setting boundaries is not about making threats. It is about giving them choices and then consequences for the poor decisions they make, much like we do with our parenting skills. We cannot be in a healthy relationship without appropriate boundaries.


SAP: Self Help - Relationships - IPFW


----------



## pidge70

*“When I ask you what is wrong, and you say “nothing”, but then proceed to slam doors or kick the wall, and seem to be angry, I feel angry or frustrated that you refuse to communicate properly with me as if I am supposed to read your mind.*

Yeah, I am horribly guilty of doing that.....a lot.


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> I inevitably get told that he is a grown ass man and can do what he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course he is. Of course he can.

And you can then enact your consequence (something YOU do) if he does something that crosses your boundary. 

You have no control over him, only yourself. To try to get him to change to suit you is spinning your wheels and causing unending misery. 

Stop it.

Decide what YOU can do when you are harmed by him. The easiest one I know to start with is "I don't deserve to be yelled at. (_your boundary_) If you raise your voice I'm going to leave the room. (_your consequence_)" As I said before, stop yelling. That makes you no better, no more mature, than him. And if he proceeds to yell, you say "I told you not to yell at me" and YOU LEAVE THE ROOM.

Go do something else or go read a book or listen to music or pull some weeds. When you come back in the room, if he's chomping at the bit to re-engage in the arguing, you turn right around again, grab the car keys or the dog and leave the house. Go for a walk or a drive. Come back in an hour or two. If he tries to re-engage when you get back, you calmly go into your room, grab some overnight stuff, tell him you need some alone time to deal with the yelling, and go stay with a friend or at a hotel. When you come back the next day, if he tries to do it again, you look him in the eyes and say "When you can treat me with respect, we can look at continuing this relationship. I can't tolerate the yelling. I'm taking a break. I'll be back in a few days." And you go stay somewhere else for 2 or 3 days. If when you come back, he STILL can't control himself, you have a choice to make - stay home and agree to be his pummel board, or move on.

Do you see how you are progressing the consequence? He is free to stop at ANY time, and you two can have a real conversation. But if he KEEPS yelling, KEEPS trying to control or dominate the situation, you have no choice but to make the consequence STRONGER (longer).

See how you are not telling HIM how to do ANYTHING. You are merely showing him what YOU will do if he acts in this or that way. He's free to keep acting in this or that way - he just will be doing it alone. That stops you from trying to control him. And teaches him to respect you. Once the respect is back (I hope it was at least there initially), THEN you two can agree on some healthy boundaries for both of you.


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> *“When I ask you what is wrong, and you say “nothing”, but then proceed to slam doors or kick the wall, and seem to be angry, I feel angry or frustrated that you refuse to communicate properly with me as if I am supposed to read your mind.*
> 
> Yeah, I am horribly guilty of doing that.....a lot.


Well, now you know. And it's a great, easy problem to fix. If he sees you fixing YOUR side of the street, he will respect you more and should consider fixing HIS side of the street. But you have to stop being part of the problem. Start with no longer yelling. And next start telling the truth - no more 'Nothing." Ok?


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## clipclop2

is Joe reading here still? 

you guys know my opinion so I won't repeat it.

I wish I could reach out and fix this for you both. 

Pidge, all you can do is work on you. and that means trying to get ahold of some of the things that you do that you shouldn't as in you admitted that you don't always answer honestly when you are upset though it must be clear enough if he knows to ask. not telling him could be because you know it will escalate but it also do not use both of you the opportunity to have a positive interaction.

you can't stay the same and have a different relationship. I know how difficult it is to get out of ingrained habits especially when it comes to the person who knows every button to push and in what order. between the two of you you have enough guilt and shame to make it is very tall mountain to climb. But you can climb the mountain. you have to want it more than you want to protect yourself. nobody climb the mountain without risk of injury or death. for some reason neither of you are willing to take the risk for very long. 

truly I understand being afraid and being vulnerable and not letting yourself being taken advantage of. but you have to both want to be vulnerable and both allow yourself to be broken in order to be healed. and I guess what I mean is not the opportunity to be broken but to risk being broken. 

love isn't enough as I said ad nauseum.

lastly this is for Joe: Joe you need to cut alcohol out of your life completely. it makes your brain way too vulnerable to triggering . you will never ever be able to maintain this marriage if you continue to drink. drink didn't cause the hurt that you are experiencing however it is far too powerful in the way it modifies your ability to filter. the fact that you can't control your brain when you are drinking and the fact that it contributes to the negativity in your marriage should make it very clear that choosing alcohol is in a sense not choosing Pidge. you are choosing alcohol over your marriage. 

do you ever read Calvin's posts? Can you always tell when he's had a few beers? those are the times when he wrestles with his triggers. he's doing a much better job winning over those triggers but those triggers still comes to the fore when he's been drinking. and that threatens the stability of his marriage. 

I suspect that you are drinking is far more threatening. would you be willing to stop drinking? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> I inevitably get told that he is a grown ass man and can do what he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And you can too. I have the sense you do. I respect you guys a lot and I think you are a good couple and will stay together. That's just my sense. It's my sense also that you do not give up an inch in the dynamic. Nor should you. Joe seems to be a guy's guy and you seem to be a hard woman. And pretty (I have been on some threads where you posted pics). I'd be no match for you, but I think Joe is. 

It's just hard. And hard to see sometimes why it should be so hard. Say hi to Joe. You guys have been very kind to us here.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



pidge70 said:


> I tried to read His Needs Her Needs. I could not get through it. Also, another TAM member sent me the Love Dare book last year. I couldn't do that either. Maybe it was the religious overtones. I did get Joe to take the Love Languages test. Not that it did any good. He won't read anything.


Love Busters is not His Needs, Her Needs. It specifically talks about the things we do to each other in a marriage that rob us of loving feelings and cause resentment to build. Dr Harley uses case studies and examples to illustrate and help you to understand exactly what he's saying. In my marriage I never thought we engaged in Love Busters but I was shocked to realize that as good as our relationship was/is we still gave each other a good zinger every now and then and did things to subtly hurt each other without realizing it.


----------



## turnera

I ALWAYS tell people to do the Love Buster questionnaire before addressing any needs. Instead of a 'love bank' that Harley describes, I like the 'love bucket' theory. You each have a bucket. Your partner can meet your emotional needs (filling your bucket with 'love') but he/she can also poke HOLES in your bucket by doing love busters (things that hurt you, make you unhappy). If he only LBs you occasionally, usually makes you happy, there are only a couple 'holes' in your bucket caused by those LBs. So when he meets your ENs and fills your bucket, it pretty much stays full and you feel loved and happy. 

If, however, he makes a LOT of LBs, if you find yourself unhappy about something every other day, well, there are a ton of holes in that bucket. Try pouring anything (love) into a bucket full of holes; guess what - it can't stay full, it will all run out all of those holes, because no matter how he tries to meet your ENs, no matter how hard he keeps trying to fill that bucket, your unhappiness, your resentment, will win out. You won't stay in love. 

And the same works for your partner. You can provide their top 5 ENs all you want, but if you won't stop YOUR bad habits, YOUR LBs against him/her, they can't stay in love with you. They will only look at you in anger or resentment.

That's HNHN in a nutshell. Basically, it's arming yourself with KNOWLEDGE about what makes your partner tick, in both bad and good ways. You need to know their top 5 ENs, but knowing how you LB them might be even more important.

Here's the questionnaire page. I think there's one for husbands and one for wives.


----------



## pidge70

*that choosing alcohol is in a sense not choosing Pidge. you are choosing alcohol over your marriage. *

This is exactly what I have told him, numerous times.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> And you can too. I have the sense you do. I respect you guys a lot and I think you are a good couple and will stay together. That's just my sense. It's my sense also that you do not give up an inch in the dynamic. Nor should you. Joe seems to be a guy's guy and you seem to be a hard woman. And pretty (I have been on some threads where you posted pics). I'd be no match for you, but I think Joe is.
> 
> It's just hard. And hard to see sometimes why it should be so hard. Say hi to Joe. You guys have been very kind to us here.


I know I have a lot to work on. I'm trying to overcome my BPD and many other maladies. I did give it a solid effort for at least 6 months. Joe has admitted that. Nothing changed. When people say if you change the other person will, that is bunk.

Joe is a good man. I know this. I know I put him through Hell. After Dday, he gave it back every bit as good as he got it. He was drinking almost daily. He would be drinking when he was the one in charge of our then 2yr old. I was repeatedly called b!tch, wh0re, cvnt, slvt, etc all within earshot of our kids. Our youngest daughter was 10 at the time. So much anger and resentment has built up. I feel like the only way he will be happy is if I kiss his ass and never complain about anything.


----------



## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> I know I have a lot to work on. I'm trying to overcome my BPD and many other maladies. I did give it a solid effort for at least 6 months. Joe has admitted that. Nothing changed. When people say if you change the other person will, that is bunk.
> 
> Joe is a good man. I know this. I know I put him through Hell. After Dday, he gave it back every bit as good as he got it. He was drinking almost daily. He would be drinking when he was the one in charge of our then 2yr old. I was repeatedly called b!tch, wh0re, cvnt, slvt, etc all within earshot of our kids. Our youngest daughter was 10 at the time. So much anger and resentment has built up. I feel like the only way he will be happy is if I kiss his ass and never complain about anything.


Maybe. But I wouldn't think so. He married you in no small part because you are hard. That's my guess anyway. Just be nice and let him know you love him. You can do that and end the marriage as well if that is what you want. If Joe's like me he has no idea where you are coming from from one moment to the next. Make that bit a little easier. Or not. What do I know?

I also do not subscribe to the bibles that are touted and preached here. I think it is much more simple. And much more complex. But not in between.


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## turnera

Are your kids in therapy?


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## pidge70

The youngest daughter was, not anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

The c word would be the end for me.

Sorry Joe, but that word is unforgivable. You are lucky Pidge didn't end it right there.


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## turnera

My H tried to use that word on me. Once. I told him that if I ever heard it come out of his mouth again, he would never see me again.

And I meant it. It means hate. And I don't tolerate hate.


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## bfree

Yeah, that's a word I don't think I could ever say to anyone.


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## joe kidd

Deleted.


----------



## GusPolinski

clipclop2 said:


> The c word would be the end for me.
> 
> Sorry Joe, but that word is unforgivable. You are lucky Pidge didn't end it right there.


I'm not looking to threadjack or piss anyone off, but I honestly don't understand what is so offensive about that word. How is it any worse than calling a guy a d*ck?

Again, I'm not trying to break blood vessels or ruin keyboards here... it's just that I don't get it.

ETA: I understand that the word is disrespectful, and I've never used it to refer to my wife... ever. Hell, I've never (directly) called her a b*tch, even when she's been one... which, admittedly, has been exceedingly rare.


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## turnera

It's a girl thing. It goes along with a mindset of violent thought, and hate, and utter disrespect.


----------



## Clay2013

People say alot of really horrible things while they are hurting. It sure does not make anything better but I would honestly take some of it with a grain of salt. The real question is how do you both act towards each other when you are not fighting. 

There has to be some reason your both still together. I can't imagine either one of you just staying for the fun of it. Hopefully you both can take some time out and try to really work together. You have a family and nothing is going to get any better unless you both try. 

I really advocate leaving when someone has been cheated on but let me make this really clear. When there are kids involved its really hard to do. It not only hurts you but it sets the kids back. Try to put them first in your mind when you both sit down to talk. 

My daughter came back from her mothers house this weekend. Me and her mother were fighting over her normal garbage about how she does not have to bring her back at our agreed time. The fighting spilled over to my daughter. It upset her so bad she cried most of the night. Its no fun at all.

If you both just cant resolve this then at least be descent to each other while you separate. 

I personally hope you both can just get this all worked out.

Clay


----------



## larry.gray

clipclop2 said:


> The c word would be the end for me.
> 
> Sorry Joe, but that word is unforgivable. You are lucky Pidge didn't end it right there.


I hesitate to delve into it because we just start down the path of who did what and what is worse....

But when you have a marriage with infidelity on both sides, BPD, a rotten upbringing and the issues it brings and substance abuse issues I do not think some name calling rises to the top as the worst thing one has done to the other.

It shouldn't continue.... but hardly the worst one has done to the other.


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## turnera

Nice remake, lg.

I've tried for many years to come up with something, anything, that could hurt a man as much as that word can hurt a woman. And truly, what you first described is probably the closest I'll ever come.


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## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> *It's a girl thing.* It goes along with a mindset of violent thought, and hate, and utter disrespect.


turnera, I've got tons of respect for you, but that (sentence in bold) comes across as little more than a cop out. Additionally, wouldn't you agree that any and all insults hurled in the heat of the moment come from the same place?


----------



## larry.gray

turnera said:


> Nice remake, lg.


What I said is less hurtful, more helpful and more appropriate, right?



turnera said:


> I've tried for many years to come up with something, anything, that could hurt a man as much as that word can hurt a woman. And truly, what you first described is probably the closest I'll ever come.












Words are not actions.


----------



## turnera

> turnera, I've got tons of respect for you, but that (sentence in bold) comes across as little more than a cop out. Additionally, wouldn't you agree that any and all insults hurled in the heat of the moment come from the same place?


No. And you would be wrong. As I said, it's hard to convey to men what that word means to many women (not all, of course). Women spend their lives on eternal subconscious 'watch' to ensure their safety, being the lighter, weaker, smaller, less aggressive of the genders. Women take aggressive, violently sexual connotations seriously. Women put aside a good chunk of their subcionscious being aware that at any time, any day, they just might get raped, or beaten, or worse. 

And that's what it means to many of us - a hatred for females, a willingness to degrade us, to subhumanize us, simply because we have one more "opening" than you. Because most men would be unwilling to say it to us, those who would, well, it's traumatic.

Perhaps YOU don't see it as 'that bad of a word' but I guarantee you, the WOMAN is quite likely to. And if you (the person who says it anyway, not you, Gus) aren't willing to _understand_ that about us, well, it tells us that you are willing to sacrifice us, our well-being, our sense of safety and self, because, yet again, you feel that YOUR belief system matters more than ours because, well, you're a male.

YMMV


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## turnera

larry.gray said:


> What I said is less hurtful, more helpful and more appropriate, right?


Quite so.



larry.gray said:


> Words are not actions.


When you are talking about this word, agree to disagree. And I hope you never 'try it out' on your female just to see.


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## Affaircare

Gus, it's not definitive but close to this: 

Calling a black person some sort of name that is derogatory but a nickname is hurtful and name-calling and some sort of verbal fighting ensues. 

But call a black person the N word, and it's all out war. 

I think it's similar with the C word for some women. 

On the one hand, we can acknowledge it is a slang name for a body part--the medical term would probably be "female genitalia" or the specific genital part's name! And you might think "yeah well a slang name for a guys' genitals is "d*ck", which is not false. 

But the connotation of "d*ck" is being a jerk--which is mean but not really that offensive. An equivalent term for a female might be "b*tch". But the C-word is about the same impact as the N-word--use that term and it's effectively the ultimate declaration of hate.


----------



## GusPolinski

I'd like to go further into this, and maybe even open up a thread in the Ladies' Lounge, but I don't see any good coming of it. And I can't even imagine how many bans would result from it...


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## turnera

There are plenty of things you can find online if you want to learn more about it.


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## joe kidd

Well the next time a woman cheats on me I try not to be so mean when I discover it. 
I can be so insensitive.


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## clipclop2

Guess you are done then, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



turnera said:


> No. And you would be wrong. As I said, it's hard to convey to men what that word means to many women (not all, of course). Women spend their lives on eternal subconscious 'watch' to ensure their safety, being the lighter, weaker, smaller, less aggressive of the genders. Women take aggressive, violently sexual connotations seriously. Women put aside a good chunk of their subcionscious being aware that at any time, any day, they just might get raped, or beaten, or worse.
> 
> And that's what it means to many of us - a hatred for females, a willingness to degrade us, to subhumanize us, simply because we have one more "opening" than you. Because most men would be unwilling to say it to us, those who would, well, it's traumatic.
> 
> Perhaps YOU don't see it as 'that bad of a word' but I guarantee you, the WOMAN is quite likely to. And if you (the person who says it anyway, not you, Gus) aren't willing to _understand_ that about us, well, it tells us that you are willing to sacrifice us, our well-being, our sense of safety and self, because, yet again, you feel that YOUR belief system matters more than ours because, well, you're a male.
> 
> YMMV


You sure give your transgressors a lot of power and an easy weapon over you by being so offended by four letters. Yes I understand the attitude and context which your disdain for the word comes from, but truly would you sooner be called this nasty name by someone who otherwise supports and wants to love you, or rather be utterly betrayed and disrespected by someone who is an abuser that just happens to only ever speak in perfectly PC English? Sticks and stones and all that.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but just want to see the conversation stay on point, about the behaviors that harm vs help Joe and Pidge's relationship. There is little to be gained by comparing which is the worst transgressions, the worst is deliberately hurting each other at all.


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## clipclop2

everyone has the right to set boundaries. That one those four letters in that order spoken from someone who is supposed to love me is unacceptable. I really don't think that you have the right to tell me what I'd be better spending my time being upset about.

and Joe I seem to recall that you cheated too. You lost all of your moral high ground long ago.

I'm starting to get upset with you. either you have the balls to reconcile or you don't. and you know which one of those I think it is.

it's one thing to hang on to hurt and a completely different thing to hang on to anger. 

I think you spent every last cent on your get out of jail free card. 

it's fine if you decide that you just can't handle reconciliation. But this ongoing behavior is not under any circumstances acceptable. and I think Iidge should leave you if you don't clean up your act. And that means no more drinking because you obviously can't handle it. 

if you want booze more than you want your marriage thank you voted with the bottle . don't try to pretend that just because you haven't left the house and you're still wearing your ring and you're still pretend married that you are in reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

to speak is a verb. Don't get ridiculous about something so simple. Words are actions Larry. 

the type of people who make those kind of argument to the type of people who frighten me quite honestly. Because they can find a way to justify anything just by changing a definition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> Well the next time a woman cheats on me I try not to be so mean when I discover it.
> I can be so insensitive.


Joe, I've been cheated on so I am certainly not going to minimize the trauma you suffered. But let me ask this. When does the "meanness" end? Not for nothing but you chose to reconcile. You didn't have to. If you want a good marriage, a healthy marriage, then you need to work to make that choice a successful one. That doesn't mean you sacrifice having your needs met. That doesn't mean you have to bend over backwards to "win" Pidge back. That does mean you have to let go of the anger and frustration and try to make your new marriage the best it can be. At some point you need to push aside the "hurt Joe" and embrace the stronger wiser Joe. Not for Pidge but for yourself.


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## joe kidd

I rarely say a word anymore. I keep to myself .


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## Harken Banks

Well, I don't think it's the end of the world. And I am on the receiving end of most of the expletive laden tirades and name calling in my household, which are no doubt excessive. 

But I've said some ill-considered and intemperate things too. People do that when they are hurt and angry. And if you didn't care you wouldn't be hurt and angry. I think fights between spouses are the nastiest because of the hurt and angry. 

One thing I remember and appreciate from our first marriage counselor who was overall . . ., well, it's in the threads, was when he said when you fight with your spouse you go for the jugular. He wasn't advocating or condoning it. Just recognizing and allowing people to forgive a bit.


----------



## joe kidd

These were things I said when I first found out. I still get beat over the head with them but I'm not allowed to live in the past and bring up the weekends where she got violated in every hole. 
My take? She can go. 
She keeps saying she is going to. Hell. Ill help her pack.


----------



## Harken Banks

joe kidd said:


> These were things I said when I first found out. I still get beat over the head with them but I'm not allowed to live in the past and bring up the weekends where she got violated in every hole.
> My take? She can go.
> She keeps saying she is going to. Hell. Ill help her pack.


If that's what we're talking about, I don't see the basis for upset. I had some colorful vernacular for AMU too when I learned and I am still to this day berated over that including in these threads and by many members of the TAM community as well.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> I rarely say a word anymore. I keep to myself .


Really? How's that working out for you? Are you happy and content in your marriage? Do you agree with Pidge that there is resentment blocking healing? Do you feel that both of you engage in "Love Busters?" Are you willing to put in the effort necessary to make marriage 2.0 the best it can be? Will you go to MC? IC? Read a book or two with Pidge?


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Really? How's that working out for you? Are you happy and content in your marriage? Do you agree with Pidge that there is resentment blocking healing? Do you feel that both of you engage in "Love Busters?" Are you willing to put in the effort necessary to make marriage 2.0 the best it can be? Will you go to MC? IC? Read a book or two with Pidge?


We are both miserable. No way will he read a self help book and MC/IC? Out of the question. He never knows what time he will be home from work. We can't schedule anything on the off chance he will have to work later or go in if he took off.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> If that's what we're talking about, I don't see the basis for upset. I had some colorful vernacular for AMU too when I learned and I am still to this day berated over that including in these threads and by many members of the TAM community as well.


Yeah, no. I heard it almost daily for 2yrs and still hear it today. Usually on the weekend.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> No. And you would be wrong. As I said, it's hard to convey to men what that word means to many women (not all, of course). Women spend their lives on eternal subconscious 'watch' to ensure their safety, being the lighter, weaker, smaller, less aggressive of the genders. Women take aggressive, violently sexual connotations seriously. Women put aside a good chunk of their subcionscious being aware that at any time, any day, they just might get raped, or beaten, or worse.
> 
> And that's what it means to many of us - a hatred for females, a willingness to degrade us, to subhumanize us, simply because we have one more "opening" than you. Because most men would be unwilling to say it to us, those who would, well, it's traumatic.
> 
> Perhaps YOU don't see it as 'that bad of a word' but I guarantee you, the WOMAN is quite likely to. And if you (the person who says it anyway, not you, Gus) aren't willing to _understand_ that about us, well, it tells us that you are willing to sacrifice us, our well-being, our sense of safety and self, because, yet again, you feel that YOUR belief system matters more than ours because, well, you're a male.
> 
> YMMV


I despise the word cvnt with all my being. It is just a foul, disgusting word. I tend to want to be physically violent when people call me that.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Joe, I've been cheated on so I am certainly not going to minimize the trauma you suffered. But let me ask this. When does the "meanness" end? Not for nothing but you chose to reconcile. You didn't have to. If you want a good marriage, a healthy marriage, then you need to work to make that choice a successful one. That doesn't mean you sacrifice having your needs met. That doesn't mean you have to bend over backwards to "win" Pidge back. That does mean you have to let go of the anger and frustration and try to make your new marriage the best it can be. At some point you need to push aside the "hurt Joe" and embrace the stronger wiser Joe. Not for Pidge but for yourself.


He has told me on more than one occasion that the only reason he decided to R, is because I was crying/begging.


----------



## bfree

So here we have Joe saying he said some derogatory things a long time ago that is still being held against him bit he doesn't engage in "love busters" currently. And we have Pidge saying that that she's heard it constantly for 2 years and still hears it today. So who is telling the truth?


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> So here we have Joe saying he said some derogatory things a long time ago that is still being held against him bit he doesn't engage in "love busters" currently. And we have Pidge saying that that she's heard it constantly for 2 years and still hears it today. So who is telling the truth?


Obviously Joe. He is perfect and sees no need to change. Yes, I am feeling rather passive/aggressive right now.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> So here we have Joe saying he said some derogatory things a long time ago that is still being held against him bit he doesn't engage in "love busters" currently. And we have Pidge saying that that she's heard it constantly for 2 years and still hears it today. So who is telling the truth?


Somewhere on the Reconciliation thread he talks about how he treated me and for how long.


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> He has told me on more than one occasion that the only reason he decided to R, is because I was crying/begging.


You don't believe that do you? I know its not true. Know how? He had a revenge affair right? Why? Because he wanted you to feel what he felt. That meant he was still emotionally engaged. And that's why he reconciled.


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> Obviously Joe. He is perfect and sees no need to change. Yes, I am feeling rather passive/aggressive right now.


Joe's not perfect. He hasn't been to any of the meetings of Perfect People Anonymous.

He's right. He doesn't need to change. But we all need to evolve.


----------



## pidge70

Oct 9, 2012 Joe posted this.....



> Well...I'm 2 yrs in. There are times I feel like a sucker, the dope who didn't have the nuts to leave.
> There are also times I feel that she paid a high price to stay. I made life quite unbearable for her since D-day. Hot and cold, excessive drinking, have called her every name that popped into my head.
> She has shown remorse. If I had picked up on any "deal with it" attitude ...gone baby gone.
> All that and the fact that ....well the fact that I love her.


----------



## pidge70

This from Oct 11, 2012



joe kidd said:


> Ok. Been doing some hard thinking. Looking into myself a little (I don't do that much, a few things locked in there that don't need to see the light of day). I (gulp) admit that I've been an insufferable bastard for the better part of the last 2 yrs.
> I justified my behavior by saying she brought upon herself.
> I asked myself if the tables were turned how long would I take it? Verbal abuse, snide comments, basically telling her " Eat it all b*tch, you filled this plate so eat every damn bite!".
> Well the answer is not as long as she has. It's time to put the monster to bed.
> So here it goes.....you screwed up, I screwed up. Here is what I propose. I'll love you and you love me and we make a life together worth having. The wall is down and my heart lays bare for you to fill. (yes I do have one it's just been in cased in stone for a long time). No more half assed attempt on my part.
> I'm new at this happy thing pidge, I'm hoping you can teach me.​


----------



## GusPolinski

Coming up on two years since that last quoted post, Joe...

What's changed?


----------



## clipclop2

Joe, knock it off, now. Do not EVER speak about Pidge like that again in front of me or anyone else. You are an abusive drunk. 

Pidge, it is time. No more . Leave and recover.


----------



## sidney2718

pidge70 said:


> I inevitably get told that he is a grown ass man and can do what he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That means basically that he regards you as property. Note that there is no recognition that you are a grown woman and can do what you want. You are property as as property you are supposed to do what HE wants.


----------



## pidge70

In all honesty, I do not think he's a "drunk." He can just be an ass when he over imbibes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

You are codependent.


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> turnera, I've got tons of respect for you, but that (sentence in bold) comes across as little more than a cop out. Additionally, wouldn't you agree that any and all insults hurled in the heat of the moment come from the same place?


The problem is that there is no male equivalent, so that we don't get the impact of it.

Wh0re is a similar word. Again, there is no equivalent word a woman can call a man. And with wh0re men can see the disrespect and degradation of it.


----------



## sidney2718

joe kidd said:


> Well the next time a woman cheats on me I try not to be so mean when I discover it.
> I can be so insensitive.


The affair is 100% hers. What you say to them after is 100% you.


----------



## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> You are codependent.


Not according to the little test I took.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

pidge70 said:


> Not according to the little test I took.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then why haven't you left?


----------



## pidge70

sidney2718 said:


> Then why haven't you left?


Because I know that there is a good man inside of him. He just needs to let that one out more often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> I rarely say a word anymore. I keep to myself .


So?


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> These were things I said when I first found out. I still get beat over the head with them but I'm not allowed to live in the past and bring up the weekends where she got violated in every hole.
> My take? She can go.
> She keeps saying she is going to. Hell. Ill help her pack.


Good. You two don't belong together.


----------



## turnera

bfree said:


> You don't believe that do you? I know its not true. Know how? He had a revenge affair right? Why? Because he wanted you to feel what he felt. That meant he was still emotionally engaged. And that's why he reconciled.


I will disagree. I can easily see a man having a revenge affair just to prove to HIMSELF that he wasn't 'deficient'; it could have nothing whatsoever to do with HER. Even though most women don't cheat because their spouse is deficient in bed.


----------



## joe kidd

So a six pack over the course of a weekend makes me a drunk? Tough crowd. 
Was I a drunk post affair ? I would say yes . 
Hell. 4 beers gives me a hangover anymore.


----------



## joe kidd

sidney2718 said:


> The problem is that there is no male equivalent, so that we don't get the impact of it.
> 
> Wh0re is a similar word. Again, there is no equivalent word a woman can call a man. And with wh0re men can see the disrespect and degradation of it.


I disagree . Calling a man a Pos while sleeping with someone else is pretty ****ing degrading.


----------



## larry.gray

turnera said:


> Good. You two don't belong together.


KNOCK IT OFF! Scroll up, and read the name of the website.

Both have said this isn't what they want on more than one occasion.


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> I disagree . Calling a man a Pos while sleeping with someone else is pretty ****ing degrading.


But it doesn't make you feel fear, shame, worthless, a piece of meat, the disappointment of the family and several other feelings at the same time.

End of T/J.


----------



## joe kidd

turnera said:


> But it doesn't make you feel fear, shame, worthless, a piece of meat, the disappointment of the family and several other feelings at the same time.
> 
> End of T/J.


How in the hell do you know ?


----------



## turnera

larry.gray said:


> KNOCK IT OFF! Scroll up, and read the name of the website.
> 
> Both have said this isn't what they want on more than one occasion.


Really? Then why isn't at least ONE of them choosing different habits? There's no magic fairy who's going to come down and make everything wonderful. The two of them have to educate themselves, do therapy themselves, make different choices, and STOP THE CRAP. 

Neither is doing so. That tells me something is off. If they really wanted each other so bad, at least one of them would have changed something.


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> How in the hell do you know ?


Because you're not a woman and you will never feel the level of 'less than' that women feel.


----------



## joe kidd

turnera said:


> Because you're not a woman and you will never feel the level of 'less than' that women feel.


Amazing. So the devastation , humiliation , and despair I felt while she stood there and said thank you for ruining my shot at happiness when she was caught means nothing because I'm a man. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you.


----------



## warlock07

turnera said:


> Because you're not a woman and you will never feel the level of 'less than' that women feel.


Come tunera, you always post about how a "real man" should act in BH threads.


----------



## warlock07

What with TAM these days.

Couples on War ?


----------



## joe kidd

I'm at a loss. I was the "nice" guy for years and got trampled. I handled myself badly after d day and apologized to her. 
But..... I refuse to be walked on ever again! 
If that cost me her then so be it because I could never live with myself if I became that guy again. 
If my finding pride and refusing to let it go bothers some here I will live with that. I have to look at myself in the mirror everyday, and I'm my own harshest critic. 
When I'm wrong with her I admit it, when I'm right I'm ****ing Mcauliffe at Bastone.


----------



## aug

bfree said:


> Joe's not perfect. *He hasn't been to any of the meetings of Perfect People Anonymous.*
> 
> He's right. He doesn't need to change. But we all need to evolve.



At least, not at my chapter.


----------



## drifting on

I avoided posting on this thread for multiple reasons. Probably get beat up for what I write but I'll take the beating. Pidge your post #131 made me shed a tear. Your pain is evident as is Joe's. My WW's affair made me want to die also. Many of nights I sat awake at my kitchen table thinking of drinking a gallon of antifreeze. I just wanted my pain to end.

My WW had her affair in 2010 to 2011. In 2008 she suffered a miscarriage after years of trying to get pregnant. I cast my feelings aside to be there completely for her. Mistake number one. I don't tell her my feelings of the miscarriage to keep from adding to her feelings. Mistake number two. For her d&c I drove her and was at her side every moment. Inside I was crushed I wouldn't be a father. I never told her until after her affair. I helped her recover and return to work. I was there within an arms reach. When the WW had bumps on her breasts I was there. Thankfully they were cysts and noncancerous. I was again within arms reach. The fact is I was there, and she cheated anyway.

The affair devastated and destroyed me. I'm not perfect by any means but I didn't deserve what she did. My point is even after being there she still cheated. I don't even want to think of what would have happened if I wasn't there. My WW resented me for lack of affection. Not holding her hand enough, not giving her enough hugs. OM held her hand once on a five minute walk in th forest preserve to a picnic table from their vehicle. Five minutes!! At the table he tells her how beautiful she is. She does what I feel is the unthinkable, she gives herself to him.

Accepting and forgiving her and the affair was definitely the hardest thing to do in my life. But I did. I will make it through this and one day I hope to be happy. I have accepted religion back into my life. I have come to understand forgiveness. I am currently in IC for the problems within myself. Self reflection is tough but I will make it through. I can only suggest to try IC, as much as I hate it I am improving. I wish both you and Joe the best of luck, happiness, and health. I'm so sorry for all that you both have gone through.


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> But it doesn't make you feel fear, shame, worthless, a piece of meat, the disappointment of the family and several other feelings at the same time.
> 
> End of T/J.


You are so, So, SO wrong about that.


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> Because you're not a woman and you will never feel the level of 'less than' that women feel.


Replace "woman" w/ "man", and "women" w/ "men"...

There are plenty of things that can make us feel exactly like that, and many of us here have lived through it.


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> You are so, So, SO wrong about that.


I suggest you go forth and start that other thread instead of continuing on with the T/J.

(and I'm going to have at least a little fun with it )


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> Amazing. So the devastation , humiliation , and despair I felt while she stood there and said thank you for ruining my shot at happiness when she was caught means nothing because I'm a man. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you.


This resonated with me big time. My ex wife said to me that if I were more of a man she wouldn't have had to cheat. It was devastating and sent me down a spiral of self destruction. You're correct. When I finally pulled out of my tailspin I vowed never to let anyone have that kind of power over me again.


----------



## clipclop2

Bfree, you pulled out of the tailspin. Joe isn't in a tailspin. He is on a rampage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



clipclop2 said:


> Bfree, you pulled out of the tailspin. Joe isn't in a tailspin. He is on a rampage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, although I didn't reconcile so when I climbed out of the pit I was in I could start fresh. I already said to Joe that he needs to let go of the anger, not for Pidge but for himself.


----------



## pidge70

With all due respect, I didn't start this thread so Joe could be attacked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## Clay2013

It seems to happen alot these days. Especially to the BS. I watch some on another thread in the private section. 

I personally do hope you both work together but I also understand until your ready and hes ready then nothing will happen. There is that chance that your marriage will end before that happens. It is the downside to these kinds of problems. 

There is a ignore function in the User CP. I would use it if it gets too bad. 

I hope your days goes better 

Clay


----------



## clipclop2

And you aren't codependent? 

But why did you start this up again? Maybe you are hoping someone here can fix this for you? 

Look, if you continue to take what he hands out, nothing will change.

That's the bottom line.


----------



## clipclop2

I think R is not for these two otherwise fine people. Joe isn't built to forgive. That's ok. Torturing Pidge because he can't stand to let her go is not ok.

This is analogous to cake eating.


----------



## turnera

Which is why I said good, LET them separate. They don't belong together. R isn't for everyone and there's no shame in admitting it.


----------



## joe kidd

clipclop2 said:


> Bfree, you pulled out of the tailspin. Joe isn't in a tailspin. He is on a rampage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What? Do you even think before you type? 
I don't yell or scream . I work I come home and I eat and sleep. Now I'm ****ing Ray Rice? Loose your hate elsewhere. 
All you ever do is attack. ..... Without facts. 
You don't know me and yet all you do is attack my character . 
Is that a magic PC screen you have? 
Now I'm a dry drunk. 
You don't know me. Stop attacking me. 
Makes me feel a little sad for you, but if making me a monster makes your life a little better......


----------



## joe kidd

These are things that were said long ago. I have not been "on a rampage" in at least 2 yrs. This place kills me. I haven't had more than a slight buzz in lord knows how long...yet I'm a dry drunk. 
Now I have a reptilian brain.


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> These are things that were said long ago.


She says you still continuously say harmful mean things, WEEKLY. 

Is she lying?


----------



## Lon

joe kidd said:


> These are things that were said long ago. I have not been "on a rampage" in at least 2 yrs. This place kills me. I haven't had more than a slight buzz in lord knows how long...yet I'm a dry drunk.
> Now I have a reptilian brain.


Hi Joe, haven't talked to you for a long time on here. I think your silence on a lot of pidge's words on here are speaking for you in regards to the attacks you are getting.

She is making accusations, and you are generally not denying them, so there must be some truth to what she is saying, that you are acting hurtful towards her?

I know this is Pidge's thread, is your silence out of respect for her space on here, or are you just shut down? PM me if you want, have you started any of your own threads on here lately?


----------



## joe kidd

If saying if you want to leave then go is mean then I guess so. You have never been on the receiving end of a full blown BPD tirade. 
It will wear the strongest down.


----------



## joe kidd

Lon. I'm so turned around anymore I have no idea what she considers hurtful . If I ask what time she has a class I'm an ass because I don't care enough to know. 
My whole life is broken down into time frames for work so I get mixed up sometimes. I ask to make sure I'm not mistaken. So to keep the peace I stay quiet a lot. Then I'm an ass for giving her the silent treatment. I just want some peace.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> Lon. I'm so turned around anymore I have no idea what she considers hurtful . If I ask what time she has a class I'm an ass because I don't care enough to know.
> My whole life is broken down into time frames for work so I get mixed up sometimes. I ask to make sure I'm not mistaken. So to keep the peace I stay quiet a lot. Then I'm an ass for giving her the silent treatment. I just want some piece.


So according to YOUR OWN standards, do you believe you are treating her kindly, fairly and reasonably?


----------



## joe kidd

And for those who think Pidge is a weak little victim.... You don't know her. She is aggressive . She is driven and out for blood when she senses weakness. She can give hell with the best of them.


----------



## Almostrecovered

so why do you stay then?


----------



## Nostromo

pidge70 said:


> With all due respect, I didn't start this thread so Joe could be attacked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah this is the unfortunate side effect of a couple posting on the same forum, especially about such a volatile topic as infidelity. 
They have an argument and just about everybody takes sides, usually along gender lines (funny how that works out). I won't attempt to tell you or your husband what to do in your marriage or what to post about it on here, but I do wonder if this type of online back and forth in front of all of us spectators is actually hindering the two of you or your relationship. Just a thought.


----------



## joe kidd

Lon said:


> So according to YOUR OWN standards, do you believe you are treating her kindly, fairly and reasonably?


No. I would say its with indifference. Not mean but not kind. We are just here together .


----------



## Almostrecovered

joe kidd said:


> No. I would say its with indifference. Not mean but not kind. We are just here together .


don't you want a better life than that?

how many attempts do you need before you realize it can't be done?


----------



## joe kidd

Almostrecovered said:


> so why do you stay then?


I don't know why either of us stay. 
I just walk through life now enjoying nothing .


----------



## Almostrecovered

wish I could help but as unlike it is for me to say...


I am at a loss for words


----------



## joe kidd

clipclop2 said:


> I think R is not for these two otherwise fine people. Joe isn't built to forgive. That's ok. Torturing Pidge because he can't stand to let her go is not ok.
> 
> This is analogous to cake eating.


I let her go a long time ago. It's the other way around.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



joe kidd said:


> No. I would say its with indifference. Not mean but not kind. We are just here together .


And not peacefully.

So then is the relationship done?

Joe, Pidge, do either of you both want to stay like this, cohabitating at odds with each other for the rest of your lives?

Why not try separating, you have nothing to lose at this point.


----------



## joe kidd

FYI . I have up trying to refute long ago. If I do then I get a few days of the how dare you look. When she 1st joined , I was checking on her then, she was quite upset that I " took" this place from her when I came along.


----------



## calvin

I really like you both.
I'm hoping and praying for a miracle here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

I can see where might feel attacked. I let her roll over me for years. Standing up for myself is new for her. 
The BPD kicks in and she feels she has to defend herself and sees my defense as a slight towards her.


----------



## turnera

turnera said:


> She says you still continuously say harmful mean things, WEEKLY.
> 
> Is she lying?


Answer?


----------



## joe kidd

Lon said:


> And not peacefully.
> 
> So then is the relationship done?
> 
> Joe, Pidge, do either of you both want to stay like this, cohabitating at odds with each other for the rest of your lives?
> 
> Why not try separating, you have nothing to lose at this point.


She has no place to go. None. I make most of the money. It would be easier if I was to the point where I didn't care if she made it or not. One thing that sticks in the back of my mind is that was the only reason she wanted me back. I have been in duck and weave mode for 15 yrs.


----------



## clipclop2

Pidge, how much bull are you slinging at Joe? 

Honestly you two, get away from on another and get counciling. This is no way to live. You both deserve better.

What would the logistics be for that to happen?


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> She has no place to go. None. I make most of the money.


That's what alimony and settlements are for.


----------



## joe kidd

turnera said:


> Answer?


I don't owe you one but here goes . She may feel that way. Like I said, most of what I say is "just leave then" or " this is why I don't talk to you".
Next time ask politely.


----------



## clipclop2

The reptile brain is the most primitive part of the brain. It is pure reaction. It isn't an insult. It is describing where you think when you lash out because you are angry.


----------



## aug

joe kidd said:


> And for those who think Pidge is a weak little victim.... You don't know her. She is aggressive . She is driven and out for blood when she senses weakness. She can give hell with the best of them.



I can feel this comes across the screen at times.


----------



## joe kidd

So. I will leave all of you to contemplate how the fair Pidge could ever tolerate the evil ogre joe. 
Defending a situation that no one sees but has plenty of **** to sling about it has left me exhausted .


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> I don't owe you one but here goes . She may feel that way. Like I said, most of what I say is "just leave then" or " this is why I don't talk to you".
> Next time ask politely.


I did ask politely. And you ignored my post. So I RE-asked. 

Next time answer politely and I'll continue the trend.


----------



## turnera

joe kidd said:


> I don't owe you one but here goes . She may feel that way. Like I said, most of what I say is "just leave then" or " this is why I don't talk to you".
> Next time ask politely.


Pidge, is that true? Does he just say "so go ahead and leave" or does he say 'you freakin' b*tch, get the hell out of my face!'?

We can't offer advice if we aren't getting the truth. It may FEEL good (I'm talking to both of you) to defend yourself and make the other out to be a monster, but it sure makes it hard for us to try to find something that will help you if we never hear the real truth.


----------



## Harken Banks

joe kidd said:


> So. I will leave all of you to contemplate how the fair Pidge could ever tolerate the evil ogre joe.
> Defending a situation that no one sees but has plenty of **** to sling about it has left me exhausted .


This place is that way. Some seem to come in with their own hurt or baggage and unload at whatever triggers them. Or simply because it may help them feel better about themselves or their situation. Sometimes better about themselves relative to others. There are a lot of people here who are really good in this space and considered and observe, ask the right questions, ones you hadn't thought of, listen, discern, and come up with some really good insight. There are those few of us here with our spouses. We are accountable where many others are not and preach or condemn without check. Some. What might their spouses or exes or relations come here to say about them? A lot of it would not be pretty, I am sure. With us, you know and we know and so we have to be honest. I think a lot of people here get that and appreciate it. There are number of excellent posters in this thread and in ours who are measured and thoughtful and helpful. But it's a place where some give in to the temptation to take free hits and pile on. I like you guys. A lot. I sure as hell do not know a lot about you or your story except what is shared here, but I think you will stay together and I think you should.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: 4yrs later and it is even worse*



turnera said:


> She says you still continuously say harmful mean things, WEEKLY.
> 
> Is she lying?


That's what I asked.


----------



## Paladin

I wonder how many of you actually know what BPD is, and what life is like for people who have a spouse with that condition without the massive complication of infidelity added to the mix. To those demanding answers to questions in order to give advice, I ask when you got your psychology degrees or your MFT certs and if "diagnosis via internet" was part of your training. The state of affairs on TAM right now is disturbing. I've been slowly packing my bags and looking for reasons to stay, but that task becomes more and more difficult as the weeks roll on by and the mob mentality of the loud minority continues to go unchecked. 

The only thing in a tail spin around these parts is the community, and without major and consistent involvement from the moderators that trend will continue until nothing of value is left here.


----------



## clipclop2

I'm pretty well versed in BPD. From Pidge's telling and him not refuting it seemed pretty damning.

If she is not keeping her rages in check then she has misrepresented things here. 

Again, bottom line is the bottom line. This marriage is past DOA.

Neither want to fix it past the effort of saying they want to fix it. Well, Joe bounces back and forth. Right now he says he doesn't care.

She may not be capable of controlling herself.

No alcohol for you, right Pidge? 

If we got a vote in what is best for these two given their effort, who would vote they should stay together? If either were your son or,daughter, what would you tell them?

Joe may need therapy for PTSD.

Pidge needs to work on her issues with CBT. 

I don't think they can heal and stay together. Their issues suck all the oxygen out of the room.


----------



## Paladin

clipclop2 said:


> I'm pretty well versed in BPD.





clipclop2 said:


> From Pidge's telling and him not refuting it seemed pretty damning.
> 
> If she is not keeping her rages in check then she has misrepresented things here.


Out of the FOG - Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)
Take a quick look at this link, maybe take a minute to read through the list of BPD traits and see if you still think the above two quotes can co-exist. 



clipclop2 said:


> Again, bottom line is the bottom line. This marriage is past DOA.


Do you live with them, and are you their counselor? Not sure how anybody but them can make this determination.




clipclop2 said:


> Neither want to fix it...


I disagree.



clipclop2 said:


> If we got a vote in what is best for these two


We dont.



clipclop2 said:


> I don't think they can heal and stay together. Their issues suck all the oxygen out of the room.


I think they have a better chance of fixing what is wrong _between_ them if they are together. It may be more complicated, but they cant work on a relationship if they are not in one together.


----------



## calvin

Joe's a good dude,works his ass off to support his family,Pidge is working and
going back to school,she's a fine woman.
I know you're both busy but try to find time for counseling once a month,I think
you both can figure out a way to do once a month.
The RA made things worse I think but I understand him wanting her to feel some of the
pain but I've seen pidge post before about the hell she put him through.
I don't like trial seperations at all,I hate them but this is the one time I think it might
be worth a try.
At two and a half years is where I finally could tell CSS and me had a decent shot.
We did a lot of counseling,I hated it at first but then the sessions flew by,we both
got some good advise through our thick skulls and quite a bit of it stuck.
I'm thinking about you guys,I'll even say a few prayers.
Let the **** go,it's not too late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Paladin said:


> I think they have a better chance of fixing what is wrong _between_ them if they are together. It may be more complicated, but they cant work on a relationship if they are not in one together.


Actually, they CAN work on a relationship from separate households; many therapists suggest it because it removes the unhealthy dynamic they're stuck in, and lets them see each other as the human beings they once coveted.

And they don't have any chance of fixing, if neither of them is willing to shed their self defensiveness and name calling, or tell anyone (us OR counselors) the truth.


----------



## pidge70

When did I lie?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Joe's a good dude,works his ass off to support his family,Pidge is working and
> going back to school,she's a fine woman.
> I know you're both busy but try to find time for counseling once a month,I think
> you both can figure out a way to do once a month.
> The RA made things worse I think but I understand him wanting her to feel some of the
> pain but I've seen pidge post before about the hell she put him through.
> I don't like trial seperations at all,I hate them but this is the one time I think it might
> be worth a try.
> At two and a half years is where I finally could tell CSS and me had a decent shot.
> We did a lot of counseling,I hated it at first but then the sessions flew by,we both
> got some good advise through our thick skulls and quite a bit of it stuck.
> I'm thinking about you guys,I'll even say a few prayers.
> Let the **** go,it's not too late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin. You are a good person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> When did I lie?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no idea!

I can't tell WHAT the truth is, because everything YOU say happened, he refutes. And everything HE says happened, YOU refute.


----------



## Paladin

turnera said:


> Actually, they CAN work on a relationship from separate households; many therapists suggest it because it removes the unhealthy dynamic


People suffering with BPD have a difficult time with empathy because they can easily objectify others, if Pidge and Joe are not together, she may have a much harder time feeling empathy, or anything else for that matter, toward him.



turnera said:


> ...if neither of them is *willing* to shed their self defensiveness ...


Not willing and not currently capable are two different things. It sucks, but since his mental health is better than hers, he has to do more of the work.

Early in my recovery, before it was known if we were going to stay together or not, my counselor talked about how difficult a relationship with someone who struggles with BPD could actually be. She wanted me to think in a meaningful way about the possibility of being much happier with a lot less work if I chose to divorce and find someone else. 

As long as Joe is making the choice to stay with Pidge, he is also committing to take her mental health and capability into account. That is a difficult task under the best circumstances, and a very difficult task when infidelity is in the picture.

The bright spot in all of this is the fact that Pidge seems to do better with counseling than most people with full on BPD. Counseling is an integral part of having a successful relationship when one of the spouses has BPD traits.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> I have no idea!
> 
> I can't tell WHAT the truth is, because everything YOU say happened, he refutes. And everything HE says happened, YOU refute.


I don't recall responding to him on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Joe may be "mentally" healthier than me, but he hasn't been diagnosed with anything. Got to see someone for that to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Thanks Calvin. You are a good person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You are to pidgeso is joe.
I have noticed post here and there in the past where you or joe would say good things about
eachother.
He's defended you like you stuck up for him today.
I KNOW there is something there between you two,the love is not dead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

pidge70 said:


> I don't recall responding to him on here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People asked you to verify what her said and you disputed it. Several times.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> People asked you to verify what her said and you disputed it. Several times.


Nope, I in fact did not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Not gonna waste my time, but you did.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> Not gonna waste my time, but you did.


Yeah....ok. You are indeed wrong though. Have a blessed night. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

Paladin, staying together will eventually kill any chance they might otherwise have because NEITHER are willing do any sort of work.

I don't know where you got your degree from since you wanted to be a smartass about that earlier ,but clearly what they're doing isn't working and you are just prescribing more of the same .

I lived with a BPD parent. he was also an abusive drunk. So yeah maybe I am projecting but it doesn't really seem to Joe's refuting his behavior when he drinks. and if the things she said about her recently on this thread are any indication of what he does when he's sober I sure as heck wouldn't want to be around him when he's drunk. 

pitch can't choose not to be BP today. She can choose to get therapy she can choose to work on herself. likewise Joe can choose not to drink.

but Joe is perpetually angry and that's not good for him or her or their family.

I don't think posting here helps them. I don't think telling them to stay together helps them. They must do something different. 

there's a great line in the Crosby Stills Nash song called Southern Cross. line is and we never failed to fail it was the easiest thing to do.

Well that's what they're doing the easiest thing. I couldn't disagree with you more paladin.


----------



## Paladin

pidge70 said:


> Joe may be "mentally" healthier than me, but he hasn't been diagnosed with anything. Got to see someone for that to happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are 100% correct, and I didnt mean to imply that he was "fine," just wanted to bring attention to the fact that people at different levels of mental health deal (or not deal) with situations differently.


----------



## pidge70

To the earlier question, I haven't drank in about 3yrs. I'm a bad Irish girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Paladin said:


> You are 100% correct, and I didnt mean to imply that he was "fine," just wanted to bring attention to the fact that people at different levels of mental health deal (or not deal) with situations differently.


His brother was a bipolar, paranoid schizophrenic. I think something hit Joe too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Paladin

clipclop2 said:


> Paladin, staying together will eventually kill any chance they might otherwise have because NEITHER are willing do any sort of work.


And you know this by some type of telepathy the rest of us dont possess, or is it possible that different people read this situation differently?



clipclop2 said:


> I don't know where you got your degree from since you wanted to be a smartass about that earlier ,but clearly what they're doing isn't working and you are just prescribing more of the same


I never claimed to be an expert in anything, you however, claimed to be "well versed" in BPD and then made comments that were a clear indication that you were less versed than you thought. I also refrained from calling you names, and expect the same from you if you wish to continue having a discussion.

As far as what I am "prescribing," maybe you missed this post, or maybe it was too long for you, but here it is again just in case:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/168537-4yrs-later-even-worse-13.html#post10293978



pidge70 said:


> Honest question here, how does one get over massive resentment when the person you are resentful towards just keeps piling on more?
> 
> Just for a little levity, I am sure I missed a comma in the proceeding sentence. No worries, one of my classes this semester is English, I shall learn.....lol





Paladin said:


> Work on identifying the cause of the resentment and communicating how you feel. Do your best to not conflate the issues that cause you to feel resentment, so you can address each occurrence without having them amplified by one another. Work from oldest to newest, but identify and mention the new issues as they occur. If you know what he needs to do in order for you to feel less resentment, speak of it often and as clearly as you can. If no progress is made, consider keeping some distance from each other for a short time.





clipclop2 said:


> I lived with a BPD parent. he was also an abusive drunk. So yeah maybe I am projecting but it doesn't really seem to Joe's refuting his behavior when he drinks.


Why do you feel entitled to his refutation? He doest owe any of us anything (except Pidge) and taking his silence for acceptance is ignorance. 



clipclop2 said:


> I don't think posting here helps them. I don't think telling them to stay together helps them. They must do something different.... I couldn't disagree with you more paladin.


Well its good that you are opinionated, and I never asked you to agree.


----------



## calvin

This all depesses me just a little,triggers me a bit but there are a few signs of hope.
Pidge standing up for joe was just one,pidge knowing she hurt joe was
another,there's more if you read between the lines a little bit.
Night folks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nickgtg

They both sound angry and resentful towards each other with either unwilling to budge.


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> This all depesses me just a little,triggers me a bit but there are a few signs of hope.
> Pidge standing up for joe was just one,pidge knowing she hurt joe was
> another,there's more if you read between the lines a little bit.
> Night folks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you again Calvin. At least someone can see.


----------



## pidge70

nickgtg said:


> They both sound angry and resentful towards each other with either unwilling to budge.


Thus the reason for this thread.


----------



## nickgtg

pidge70 said:


> Thus the reason for this thread.


I hear ya, it just seems that it's still like it was at the beginning of this thread. I wish you two nothing but the best and hope y'all can figure everything out.


----------



## turnera

Go back about 2 years in calvin's thread. They were in the same place as you are now.


----------



## larry.gray

Paladin said:


> Why do you feel entitled to his refutation? He doest owe any of us anything (except Pidge) and taking his silence for acceptance is ignorance.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## clipclop2

I don't feel entitled to anything. But I am free to draw conclusions based on the information I have and the behaviour presented.

I really don't get how you can suggest they are willing to do things differently when there is no evidence to support it. 

Why keeping these two people together when it causes them both so much pain and ongoing damage is so important to you I don't know.


----------



## pidge70

So, the school seems to think our son may be autistic. I long for the day when life will quit throwing us curve balls.


----------



## turnera

{{{pidge}}}


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> So, the school seems to think our son may be autistic. I long for the day when life will quit throwing us curve balls.


The same thing was said about our son,he's in regular classes now.
CSS did call in some counselors from the state at no cost,she worked with him a lot.
I did also but CSS had a knack for it.
He really is doing good,took a few years but,I doubt my boy was Autisitic.
This all came from the school also,he just was'nt up to speed.
He's fine now,your son will be to.
Prayers pidge and joe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

pidge70 said:


> So, the school seems to think our son may be autistic. I long for the day when life will quit throwing us curve balls.


Something high-functioning? Asperger's, perhaps?


----------



## pidge70

All they said was if he had it, it was a "slight" case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

One of my DD24's best friends has Aspergers (light form of autism), and he just left to go to Florida to get his graduate degree in film. I imagine your son will be fine.


----------



## calvin

Been thinking about you guys lately.
I hope and pray things are headed in the right direction for you both and 
the family.
Take care guys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

The school said this or a teacher? They cannot diagnose. And they are probably trying to cover up their own deficiency. Without a really good diagnosis I would say thank you for your concern and then ignore them.


----------



## pidge70

It was the principal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Been thinking about you guys lately.
> I hope and pray things are headed in the right direction for you both and
> the family.
> Take care guys.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All is calm at the moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> All is calm at the moment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good.
Night,hope you guys have a good day tomorrow.
I see potential in you guys,hang in there.
Your a good woman pidge,joes a good man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

I'm sick of public schools. They think that blaming the kids is helpful when they aren't able to turn a child into a little robot. If they had any real talent in education a slight case of anything would be all in a day's work. I think most educators think they know what they are doing but having never left school themselves they dint know how the real world functions. Teachers from 30 years ago would wipe the floor with them.


----------



## calvin

clipclop2 said:


> I'm sick of public schools. They think that blaming the kids is helpful when they aren't able to turn a child into a little robot. If they had any real talent in education a slight case of anything would be all in a day's work. I think most educators think they know what they are doing but having never left school themselves they dint know how the real world functions. Teachers from 30 years ago would wipe the floor with them.


 I agree with you there clip,they wanted my son on drugs and zombied out,hell
it seemed like they wanted all the kids like that so they wouldn't have to do their job.
Thank God for the teachers that wanted to work with my son,he is in regular classes now
and making A's and B's,I'm very pround of him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

Aced my math midterm!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Sweet!


----------



## pidge70

WorkingOnMe said:


> Sweet!


That is exactly what Joe texted to me after I told him about it....:rofl:


----------



## tom67

pidge70 said:


> That is exactly what Joe texted to me after I told him about it....:rofl:


We need some good news with well trollfest.


----------



## warlock07

pidge70 said:


> Aced my math midterm!


Flash quiz: 

What is 20 * 7


----------



## pidge70

warlock07 said:


> Flash quiz:
> 
> What is 20 * 7


? 140
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

probably some cell phone code 

speaking of cell phone I got a text yesterday that alleged it was from Wells Fargo when in fact it was from a local number with a computer at the other end that asked for my social security number and my account number. it reminded me of those commercials with the two computers who are talking to one another about fraud. I think I heard it grumbling that I put in a fake social security number before I hung up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

clipclop2 said:


> probably some cell phone code
> 
> speaking of cell phone I got a text yesterday that alleged it was from Wells Fargo when in fact it was from a local number with a computer at the other end that asked for my social security number and my account number. it reminded me of those commercials with the two computers who are talking to one another about fraud. I think I heard it grumbling that I put in a fake social security number before I hung up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 These things are funny. I had one the other day from an alleged police organization, wanting my personal info, to stop computer fraud!!!!! Amazing.


----------



## pidge70

So far, A's in all four classes! Thinking about changing my major.


----------



## clipclop2

To what?


----------



## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> To what?


Medical Technology
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

Excellent pidge!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> Excellent pidge!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin! My English mid term grade was just posted....100%!

Whoot, whoot! :woohoo:


----------



## clipclop2

Keep up the good work! Is med tech still a hot career? Many thousands of years ago my college roommate was going for it. Good job back then.


----------



## pidge70

nuclearnightmare said:


> pidge:
> 
> I'm not one of your friends, presently, but I do make friends (every once in a while) - and I don't really like to see people feeling so sad.
> anyway I have a couple of comments -
> 
> *per your thread title, how could things be worse now than they were 4 years ago? were you getting straight As 4 years ago??*
> _Obviously the thread was not originally about my grades. _
> 
> *also, Show Me state??
> I've never heard of someone from Missouri having an affair. I thought you were all too busy farming and milking cows. shows what I know*


_We moved here 15yrs ago. Not sure if you thought that last remark was funny, but I can assure you, it is not. _


----------



## pidge70

clipclop2 said:


> Keep up the good work! Is med tech still a hot career? Many thousands of years ago my college roommate was going for it. Good job back then.


In our area it is considered a still booming career. I'm going to try and shadow people in both majors I am considering to see which one I prefer.


----------



## Almostrecovered

be careful testing for ebola


----------



## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> be careful testing for ebola


----------



## Almostrecovered

not many professions where you get to look at all of the blood, poop, pee, and jizz you could possibly ever want to


----------



## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> not many professions where you get to look at all of the blood, poop, pee, and jizz you could possibly ever want to


Yeah, quit trying to glamorize it for me. :nono:


----------



## Almostrecovered

when my wife was a med tech she once found semen in a stool sample

guessing the patient had anal recently


----------



## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> when my wife was a med tech she once found semen in a stool sample
> 
> guessing the patient had anal recently


Well, that's just lovely.


----------



## Almostrecovered

the other techs were fascinated, no one ever got to see that before


----------



## pidge70

nuclearnightmare said:


> hmmmm.....
> we from the midwest (I'm from Iowa, originally) must not take ourselves so seriously. I will leave you in your misery and reach out to somone else. take care


Wow...if that's your idea of helping, keep on trucking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clay2013

nuclearnightmare said:


> just a couple playful entre' comments. what were you expecting, an internet cure for BPD? oops....there's another one


I normally like your comments but I think if you don't agree with someone or have anything to help them then you probably just should not comment. 

Clay


----------



## Q tip

pidge70 said:


> Aced my math midterm!


Things are really adding up...


----------



## pidge70

nuclearnightmare said:


> hmmmm.....
> we from the midwest (I'm from Iowa, originally) must not take ourselves so seriously. I will* leave you in your misery *and reach out to somone else. take care


_This is just rude, and you keep on commenting. 
_


----------



## pidge70

nuclearnightmare said:


> just a couple playful entre' comments. what were you expecting, an internet cure for BPD? oops....there's another one


Where have I ever even insinuated I am looking for an "internet cure" for my BPD? You are just being obnoxious.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

pidge70 said:


> _This is just rude, and you keep on commenting.
> _


 you don't get it miss, you were rude to me. but I will cease commenting


----------



## pidge70

nuclearnightmare said:


> you don't get it miss, you were rude to me. but I will cease commenting


If you say so.


----------



## pidge70

Q tip said:


> Things are really adding up...












lol


----------



## warlock07

pidge70 said:


> ? 140
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I believe you now.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

nuclearnightmare said:


> pidge:
> 
> I'm not one of your friends, presently,* but I do make friends (every once in a while) - and I don't really like to see people feeling so sad.*anyway I have a couple of comments -
> 
> per your thread title, how could things be worse now than they were 4 years ago? were you getting straight *A*s 4 years ago??
> 
> also, Show Me state??
> I've never heard of someone from Missouri having an affair. I thought you were all too busy farming and milking cows. shows what I know


----------



## GTdad

Jesus man. Let it go, already.


----------



## larry.gray

Almostrecovered said:


> the other techs were fascinated, no one ever got to see that before


You're clearly not living in San Fran then.


----------



## pidge70

20yrs today....Happy Anniversary to me......


----------



## Clay2013

Congrats


----------



## skype

Congratulations to you and Joe! How are things going?


----------



## pidge70

skype said:


> Congratulations to you and Joe! How are things going?


To say not good would be an understatement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## skype

pidge70 said:


> To say not good would be an understatement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So sorry to hear that. We are all rooting for you guys. Maybe you can use the anniversary to re-connect to the reasons you fell in love 20 years ago. I wish I had some brilliant advice, but I will only say that I wish the best for both of you.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

Pidge I'm sorry to hear you and Joe are struggling again. 

I'm going to be honest. I don't get it. 

There is so much hurt, and destruction on both sides. At this point no one is right or wrong. You both made mistakes. But why continue this toxic living?

Why not let each other go, and have a chance at a happy life?

You have both been miserable for years. Time to face the facts that you guys aren't compatible, and move on. No one deserves this much unhappiness, and hatefulness.

The things you say to each other, and the things that have happened... it just hurts my soul.


----------



## pidge70

TheCuriousWife said:


> Pidge I'm sorry to hear you and Joe are struggling again.
> 
> I'm going to be honest. I don't get it.
> 
> There is so much hurt, and destruction on both sides. At this point no one is right or wrong. You both made mistakes. But why continue this toxic living?
> 
> Why not let each other go, and have a chance at a happy life?
> 
> You have both been miserable for years. Time to face the facts that you guys aren't compatible, and move on. No one deserves this much unhappiness, and hatefulness.
> 
> The things you say to each other, and the things that have happened... it just hurts my soul.


I'm sorry your soul is hurting. To be honest, I don't get your marriage either, but I stay away from your thread as I don't feel I have anything productive to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## IIJokerII

Almostrecovered said:


> when my wife was a med tech she once found semen in a stool sample
> 
> guessing the patient had anal recently


Or an unprocessed Charleston Chew.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

pidge70 said:


> I'm sorry your soul is hurting. To be honest, I don't get your marriage either, but I stay away from your thread as I don't feel I have anything productive to say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you two should swap husbands


----------



## pidge70

Almostrecovered said:


> you two should swap husbands


Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheCuriousWife

pidge70 said:


> I'm sorry your soul is hurting. To be honest, I don't get your marriage either, but I stay away from your thread as I don't feel I have anything productive to say.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was going to add to my post that I have no business telling you to divorce since I won't do it in my own marriage. But everyone has their deal breakers I guess. 

While I would never tolerate the infidelity, and name calling, and just pure misery you guys are in. You look at me and think I'm crazy for staying with a man who doesn't like sex. 

The world is a funny place.


----------



## pidge70

TheCuriousWife said:


> I was going to add to my post that I have no business telling you to divorce since I won't do it in my own marriage. But everyone has their deal breakers I guess.
> 
> While I would never tolerate the infidelity, and name calling, and just pure misery you guys are in. You look at me and think I'm crazy for staying with a man who doesn't like sex.
> 
> The world is a funny place.


Isn't it though?

We have 20yrs and 4 children together. There is love still, we just have to find it. It is buried deep within hurt and bitterness, but it IS there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheCuriousWife

pidge70 said:


> Isn't it though?
> 
> We have 20yrs and 4 children together. There is love still, we just have to find it. It is buried deep within hurt and bitterness, but it IS there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well then I really hope you can find it and dig it back up.

I'll be keeping you in my thoughts, and I wish you the best. 

You are both strong people. You can get through this!


----------



## IIJokerII

TheCuriousWife said:


> a man who doesn't like sex.
> 
> The world is a funny place.


In 35 years I have never ever heard of any man who doesn't enjoy sex, well, except for this one guy who looks 20 years older than he acutally is so his dismissal is more than likely due to his appearance. 

But I have read a lot of stories here in TAM about sexless marriages/relatioships......Authored by woman....... It just boggles my mind. No offense.


----------



## pidge70

Although this doesn't have anything to do with our relationship, I have some exciting news. My English instructor wants a clean copy of my descriptive essay so that she can submit it to be published in a book that is required for the EN100 course. Every year the college has a book of student's essays that are required reading for class. I am pretty stoked about this as I did not think I did that well on the essay to begin with.


----------



## Ikaika

pidge70 said:


> Although this doesn't have anything to do with our relationship, I have some exciting news. My English instructor wants a clean copy of my descriptive essay so that she can submit it to be published in a book that is required for the EN100 course. Every year the college has a book of student's essays that are required reading for class. I am pretty stoked about this as I did not think I did that well on the essay to begin with.



That is awesome... Kind of figured you were smarter than folks like me.


----------



## pidge70

Ikaika said:


> That is awesome... Kind of figured you were smarter than folks like me.


Ummmm, yeah....no way I am smarter than you sir.


----------



## Ikaika

pidge70 said:


> Ummmm, yeah....no way I am smarter than you sir.



Secret is, I'm only gifted in understanding my narrow field of study.


----------



## pidge70

Ikaika said:


> Secret is, I'm only gifted in understanding my narrow field of study.


You're silly......


----------



## calvin

pidge70 said:


> Isn't it though?
> 
> We have 20yrs and 4 children together. There is love still, we just have to find it. It is buried deep within hurt and bitterness, but it IS there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I've heard Pidge say stuff like this before...that the love is still there but its
buried,I know Joe loves her and they both have a lot on their hands.
Lots of things that get buried surface then grow and flourish.
I feel they will also.
Excellent news Pidge!! That is so fvxking cool!
Good for you!
How's joe been? Still working a lot? He's a good man.
Still thinking about you guys.
Praying too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

calvin said:


> I've heard Pidge say stuff like this before...that the love is still there but its
> buried,I know Joe loves her and they both have a lot on their hands.
> Lots of things that get buried surface then grow and flourish.
> I feel they will also.
> Excellent news Pidge!! That is so fvxking cool!
> Good for you!
> How's joe been? Still working a lot? He's a good man.
> Still thinking about you guys.
> Praying too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks Calvin!

Joe is doing well. Work is kinda slow this time of year, but he is working every job he can.


----------



## turnera

Slow period...maybe he could sign up for an online class or two at a community college...maybe a small business class or a computer class, something to make him even more marketable, or to expand his business?


----------



## joe kidd

Not so slow yet. Worked 11 days out of a 12 day pay period. Took thanksgiving off.


----------



## turnera

So...if you take what you earned and divided it by the hours you worked, what is your hourly salary?


----------



## joe kidd

Edit.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> So...if you take what you earned and divided it by the hours you worked, what is your hourly salary?


Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chaos

turnera said:


> So...if you take what you earned and divided it by the hours you worked, what is your hourly salary?


That is a very intrusive and very personal question to ask anybody, don't you think?


----------



## turnera

She talks a lot about all the work he does, how he supports her. But then they talk about all the hours he works. So I was trying to see if they could be approaching the work a little differently. For instance, say he was a contractor, if he had to work 70 hours in one week, and he made a lot of money, he could afford to pick up a kid as an apprentice and help him do the work, so the kid can get some experience for low pay, and joe could get the same work done in 60 hours, and have more time at home, and still make GOOD money, just not obscenely high amounts of money.


----------



## joe kidd

I'm on commission . Gotta make hay while the sun shines .


----------



## Ikaika

joe kidd said:


> I'm on commission . Gotta make hay while the sun shines .



Back many years ago when I was a waiter working in fine dinning I used to like working this time of year, tips were always better. I can dig it.


----------



## turnera

Ah, ok. Never mind.


----------



## turnera

iwld, I thought I read previously that he was wanting to change careers, so I was bringing up ways he could do that. I had gone back and realized I misread, so I had dropped the subject. A WEEK ago.

Looks like YOU, on the other hand, are following my posts, looking for a way to prove YOUR agenda.


----------



## pidge70

I can't take it anymore. He and I DO NOT belong together. 

Our 15yr old was "hospitalized" yesterday afternoon.....again. She had cuts all over herself and suicidal ideations. Part of her distress is caused by the conflict in this house. 

I walked out of my job last month so now it is even more imperative that I find work. Hell, gonna need two jobs. I give up on school. I am failing algebra anyway. I can't drop it or I lose my financial help, and if I fail, I will be on academic probation. Stupid idea for me to have gone back. I can't do it. I'm tired of trying.

The icing on the cake? My 38yr old brother is dying in front of my eyes and I can't do a damn thing about it. 

I can't take this sh!t anymore. I am mad all the damn time. This is no way to live. Depending on the situation, when my brother dies, I just might follow. I don't want to do this anymore. The only thing that keeps me hanging on are my kids. I really wish I would never had the craniotomy. I truly believe I was finally being given my out then and I wussed out and had surgery.


----------



## cpacan

I'm sorry Pidge, thoughts and a Serenity prayer coming your way, use it daily and be easy on yourself.


----------



## larry.gray

I'm so sorry Pidge. Echoing cpacan's comments, prayers your way. 

PLEASE PLEASE get help if you think about doing something drastic to yourself.


----------



## bfree

Pidge, prayers headed your way. Where there is life there is hope.


----------



## Pluto2

So sorry for you pain Pidge. Your heart is breaking from lots of sources and I can imagine how overwhelming it feels. Please know there are folks who care.
((hugs))


----------



## happy as a clam

Awwwwww....pidge..... 

Thinking of you today.


----------



## LongWalk

Hang in there, Pidge. You are much beloved TAM poster and that is because of who you are.


----------



## GusPolinski

pidge70 said:


> I can't take it anymore. He and I DO NOT belong together.
> 
> Our 15yr old was "hospitalized" yesterday afternoon.....again. She had cuts all over herself and suicidal ideations. Part of her distress is caused by the conflict in this house.
> 
> I walked out of my job last month so now it is even more imperative that I find work. Hell, gonna need two jobs. I give up on school. I am failing algebra anyway. I can't drop it or I lose my financial help, and if I fail, I will be on academic probation. Stupid idea for me to have gone back. I can't do it. I'm tired of trying.
> 
> The icing on the cake? My 38yr old brother is dying in front of my eyes and I can't do a damn thing about it.
> 
> I can't take this sh!t anymore. I am mad all the damn time. This is no way to live. Depending on the situation, when my brother dies, I just might follow. I don't want to do this anymore. The only thing that keeps me hanging on are my kids. I really wish I would never had the craniotomy. I truly believe I was finally being given my out then and I wussed out and had surgery.


----------



## karole

Hugs and well wishes for you and your family. May you find the strength to deal with everything going on in your life.


----------



## Openminded

I'm very sorry, pidge, for all your troubles. That's a heavy load. 

I hope you are able to find peace.


----------



## turnera

Pidge, is there someone at your school who can help you? Help you with the algebra at least? Most schools have counselors, too. Please go talk to someone.


----------



## bfree

turnera said:


> Pidge, is there someone at your school who can help you? Help you with the algebra at least? Most schools have counselors, too. Please go talk to someone.


Good suggestion. I used to act as a tutor back in my younger days. Most of the time I didn't charge for the help.


----------



## synthetic

pidge,

remember when I felt suicidal during my ordeal? 

You gave me hope. I'm here to tell you, I feel a lot better now.

You will too. You know it. I know it. 

Life is indeed a struggle. Sometimes truly not worth living. I get it.

But then there are those little short-lived moments of joy that you KNOW you're going to have. Are they worth the struggle?

I think they are. The alternative seems to be a whole world of dark nothingness. Not something to look forward to is it?

You're a recovering BPDer. That makes you as special as the first group of astronauts that will land on Mars. Heck, maybe even more special. What the hell do they know about the struggles of becoming 'self aware' as a BPDer? 

You made me feel special on days that I felt like a useless piece of sh1t. Not many people in my life can claim such a thing. Less than a handful. You're special in my world.

Better days are ahead. You know that.


----------



## CantePe

For school, take a leave of absence based on your 15 year old and brother. You can put it on hold without losing the financial backing. Academic probation is fixable, quitting is not.

Don't give up so easily. You are stronger than you think. You can also change the full time student to part time and lighten your school work load due to family crisis. They go case by case in granting these things. Go to student support, they may also have help for you in the form of counseling and crisis management (that's what they are there for).

Change it up a bit to support yourself and your child and brother. Especially yourself.

If the conflict in your household is toxic, time to remove that conflict from the household.

You can do this, you are strong, have worth and are valuable.


----------



## Affaircare

I may not be able to understand exactly how you feel, but I care about you and want to help. Believe it or not, you are one of the people here on TAM that I've always held in high esteem, so even though we're only "online friends" you do matter to me. Is there anything I can do to help?


----------



## Tron

So sorry Pidge. Hope things improve soon!


----------



## pidge70

cpacan said:


> I'm sorry Pidge, thoughts and a Serenity prayer coming your way, use it daily and be easy on yourself.


Thank you sir.


----------



## MountainRunner

I'm a noob here on TAM Pidge, and I don't have much to offer in the way of helping you feel better other than I feel for you and your plight...*Big strong hug*

Namaste my friend.


----------



## pidge70

> I'm so sorry Pidge. Echoing cpacan's comments, prayers your way.
> 
> PLEASE PLEASE get help if you think about doing something drastic to yourself.


Thank you Larry. I'm not going to do anything. Not going to lie though, it is a nice thought. 



> Pidge, prayers headed your way. Where there is life there is hope.


Thanks bfree, I'm just about all out of hope. 



> So sorry for you pain Pidge. Your heart is breaking from lots of sources and I can imagine how overwhelming it feels. Please know there are folks who care.
> ((hugs))





> Awwwwww....pidge.....
> 
> Thinking of you today.


Thank you ladies. 



> Hang in there, Pidge. You are much beloved TAM poster and that is because of who you are


Thank you LW. 



> Hugs and well wishes for you and your family. May you find the strength to deal with everything going on in your life.





> I'm very sorry, pidge, for all your troubles. That's a heavy load.
> 
> I hope you are able to find peace.


Thank you karole and open.



> Pidge, is there someone at your school who can help you? Help you with the algebra at least? Most schools have counselors, too. Please go talk to someone.


I know there are tutoring labs. I just have to find a way to find the time to get to them.


----------



## pidge70

synthetic said:


> pidge,
> 
> remember when I felt suicidal during my ordeal?
> 
> You gave me hope. I'm here to tell you, I feel a lot better now.
> 
> You will too. You know it. I know it.
> 
> Life is indeed a struggle. Sometimes truly not worth living. I get it.
> 
> But then there are those little short-lived moments of joy that you KNOW you're going to have. Are they worth the struggle?
> 
> I think they are. The alternative seems to be a whole world of dark nothingness. Not something to look forward to is it?
> 
> You're a recovering BPDer. That makes you as special as the first group of astronauts that will land on Mars. Heck, maybe even more special. What the hell do they know about the struggles of becoming 'self aware' as a BPDer?
> 
> You made me feel special on days that I felt like a useless piece of sh1t. Not many people in my life can claim such a thing. Less than a handful. You're special in my world.
> 
> Better days are ahead. You know that.


This is so sweet. You made me cry. Thank you for this and I am glad that I was able to help you.


----------



## pidge70

CantePe said:


> For school, take a leave of absence based on your 15 year old and brother. You can put it on hold without losing the financial backing. Academic probation is fixable, quitting is not.
> 
> Don't give up so easily. You are stronger than you think. You can also change the full time student to part time and lighten your school work load due to family crisis. They go case by case in granting these things. Go to student support, they may also have help for you in the form of counseling and crisis management (that's what they are there for).
> 
> Change it up a bit to support yourself and your child and brother. Especially yourself.
> 
> If the conflict in your household is toxic, time to remove that conflict from the household.
> 
> You can do this, you are strong, have worth and are valuable.


Another made me cry post. You are too kind Cante. I will call the school on Monday. 

I'm trying to take care of me , but I am being pulled in a million directions. I'm trying to be strong for everyone and I feel like I am going to crack.


----------



## pidge70

Affaircare said:


> I may not be able to understand exactly how you feel, but I care about you and want to help. Believe it or not, you are one of the people here on TAM that I've always held in high esteem, so even though we're only "online friends" you do matter to me. Is there anything I can do to help?


Thank you so much AC. That is very kind of you. I'm not sure how you could help, but thank you for the offer.


----------



## pidge70

Tron said:


> View attachment 33377
> 
> 
> So sorry Pidge. Hope things improve soon!


Awww, thank you.


----------



## pidge70

MountainRunner said:


> I'm a noob here on TAM Pidge, and I don't have much to offer in the way of helping you feel better other than I feel for you and your plight...*Big strong hug*
> 
> Namaste my friend.


Thank you sir.


----------



## drifting on

pidge70

I have felt suicidal before, the hopelessness, and the helplessness, it is a very dark place in your mind. Many of your posts gave me hope when I had none, you were selflessly helping another poster, but I read what you wrote and took it to heart. Without ever knowing you helped when I saw no reason to continue, no reason to fight to see the sun rise again. I thought I had lost everything in life, but somewhere you sat and typed posts and somehow I stumbled across them. Your words carried life, hope, truth, and pain, that I read at my weakest moment. Your words gave strength to continue to fight, and to persevere in moving forward. I wish I could give you these words that would lift your spirits to smile and feel good once again, but I have no words for your situation. 

I can only tell you that I am grateful to you for the words you have written. For the help you so graciously gave to others that you have never met. In my book pidge, you are a very special person with an ability to help others. I will pray for you and send good thoughts and wishes from someone you probably never even knew you helped at such a terrible moment in my life. God bless you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

I have been so low that I wanted to die. I did in fact try to commit suicide. Thankfully I failed. It was a wake-up call for me. My botched suicide pushed me to finally get help and get clean. It was sometime after that that I met my wife and I've been blissfully happy ever since. I'm so glad I did not leave this world by my own hand. I would have missed out on so much happiness. Pidge, you never know when things will get better. Don't give up please.


----------



## pidge70

drifting on said:


> pidge70
> 
> I have felt suicidal before, the hopelessness, and the helplessness, it is a very dark place in your mind. Many of your posts gave me hope when I had none, you were selflessly helping another poster, but I read what you wrote and took it to heart. Without ever knowing you helped when I saw no reason to continue, no reason to fight to see the sun rise again. I thought I had lost everything in life, but somewhere you sat and typed posts and somehow I stumbled across them. Your words carried life, hope, truth, and pain, that I read at my weakest moment. Your words gave strength to continue to fight, and to persevere in moving forward. I wish I could give you these words that would lift your spirits to smile and feel good once again, but I have no words for your situation.
> 
> I can only tell you that I am grateful to you for the words you have written. For the help you so graciously gave to others that you have never met. In my book pidge, you are a very special person with an ability to help others. I will pray for you and send good thoughts and wishes from someone you probably never even knew you helped at such a terrible moment in my life. God bless you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh my goodness, you are too kind. I am very happy to hear that I had such a positive impact on you. I hope you are in a much better place now.


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> I have been so low that I wanted to die. I did in fact try to commit suicide. Thankfully I failed. It was a wake-up call for me. My botched suicide pushed me to finally get help and get clean. It was sometime after that that I met my wife and I've been blissfully happy ever since. I'm so glad I did not leave this world by my own hand. I would have missed out on so much happiness. Pidge, you never know when things will get better. Don't give up please.


I have 14 failed attempts under my belt. I started at the age of 14. Odd that it's the same number. 

The first time I tried to kill myself was after I was raped. I came home, my mother was drunk, and apparently I pissed her off. She beat the Hell out of me and I later tried to kill myself by overdosing on pain pills. I did not tell her about the rape until I was 18.

The last time I tried to kill myself was a little over 4yrs ago. Overdose again. 

It is getting harder to sustain myself on the brief bursts of happiness I do have. I wonder, if I were to die, who honestly would care? That's why sometimes I am angry that I had surgery. I feel like maybe God was trying to tell me that I was finally given permission to die. I don't know. I will be strong, I have to be. I always have to be.


----------



## GusPolinski

pidge70 said:


> I have 14 failed attempts under my belt. I started at the age of 14. Odd that it's the same number.
> 
> The first time I tried to kill myself was after I was raped. I came home, my mother was drunk, and apparently I pissed her off. She beat the Hell out of me and I later tried to kill myself by overdosing on pain pills. I did not tell her about the rape until I was 18.
> 
> The last time I tried to kill myself was a little over 4yrs ago. Overdose again.
> 
> It is getting harder to sustain myself on the brief bursts of happiness I do have. I wonder, if *I were to die, who honestly would care?* That's why sometimes I am angry that I had surgery. I feel like maybe God was trying to tell me that I was finally given permission to die. I don't know. I will be strong, I have to be. I always have to be.


FWIW, it sounds like there is no shortage of folks here that would indeed care.

ETA: Scratch that... we *DO* care.

And you have to know that -- _regardless of whatever is currently going on between the two of you_ -- Joe would be absolutely devastated.

And while it may seem like this is "hitting below the belt", so to speak, I'm gonna go there anyway...

Please PLEASE PLEEEAAAAASE think of your kids. There's just no way that they'd be better off w/o their mother.


----------



## pidge70

I wouldn't do anything. I know I have to be here for my kids.


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> I wouldn't do anything. I know I have to be here for my kids.


And we will be here for you.

I know this is just an anonymous online forum and I know we aren't involved in each other's lives every day. But, and this may sound corny, I am emotionally involved in each and everyone here. When I pray for people I'm only using their screen names and sometimes I have a fleeting thought "this is silly, I don't even know their real names." Then I realize GOD KNOWS. He knows each and every one of us. He doesn't need a screen or a keyboard. He knows. When I pray for Pidge70 God knows exactly who I'm thinking of. He knows exactly who my heart aches for and who my tears shed for. Pidge, you need to stay here in this world with us, for us as much as for you. I fully believe that there is a balance in this world and in each one of us. A balance of good and evil. A balance of light and dark. Pidge we need your light to help cut through the dark. Right now you might see a lot of darkness around you. When I pray I'm asking God to send you some of my light. I'm going to a prayer meeting tonight with some good friends. It won't just be Christians like myself. There will be men, women and children from many denominations and faiths. They'll be Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, there will even be some who follow the pagan faiths. I am going to stand up and put your name forth for prayer. You are going to have a lot of people of various faiths all praying to whatever Gods(s) they worship. Last year we had over 200 people come. We expect more this year. I pray you receive our strength and warmth. I pray you feel peace. Most of all I pray you find happiness. If you happen to glance at your watch at around 8PM EST know that there are a lot of people thinking of you at that exact moment. God bless you Pidge.


----------



## skype

Pidge, these comments are making me tear up. I'm not sure what words of wisdom may reach you, but know that we are all connected, and we are all concerned about someone who feels such despair.

Each of our lives create ripples that radiate out into the past and into the future. I saw a documentary about Lewis and Clark, and the historian commenting started to tear up when he spoke about Meriwether Lewis' suicide. Someone who died 200 years ago, and his suicide still has the power to make people cry!

I know that you have had more challenges in your life than most of us can ever imagine, but one day you will hold your grandchildren in your arms, and they will be so grateful that you pushed through all the hurt and found a way to keep going.


----------



## pidge70

Our daughter is home. She got to come home this past Wednesday.


----------



## jim123

pidge70 said:


> Our daughter is home. She got to come home this past Wednesday.


That is great news. You can beat this and you will. You are far stronger than you allow yourself to think.

Do not give up on school, you can do it. Talk with the school about everything. Most have additional help available with tutoring and IC. Reach out to women's group.

I have read so many of your posts and you have true compassion and empathy. Only special people have that. The only person who does not realize this is you. Time to open your eyes and see the person in the mirror.


----------



## pidge70

I posted this on my other thread, but this section gets the most views.

My brother died yesterday and I need help to raise money to bury him. This is a link to the donation site. If anyone can help, I truly appreciate it. A proper burial for Paul by Denise Rhodes - GoFundMe 

This is also a link to my thread where I talk about his story. Thank you again. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family-parenting-forums/197298-brief-vent-im-so-scared.html


----------



## turnera

I'm so sorry, pidge.

I couldn't donate much, as I've been unemployed for 2 months, but it's a little.


----------



## pidge70

turnera said:


> I'm so sorry, pidge.


Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

pidge70 said:


> I posted this on my other thread, but this section gets the most views.
> 
> My brother died yesterday and I need help to raise money to bury him. This is a link to the donation site. If anyone can help, I truly appreciate it. A proper burial for Paul by Denise Rhodes - GoFundMe
> 
> This is also a link to my thread where I talk about his story. Thank you again. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family-parenting-forums/197298-brief-vent-im-so-scared.html


Pidge, 10 1/2 years ago when my older brother passed away very suddenly, and in his case, completely unexpectedly, at the age of 49, I was in a similar position. He had never married and had no children. My mother had died 5 years before, and my father, who lived with me, had Alzheimer's disease. My other brother was in no position to be of any help. So, tag, I was it. My brother had no insurance, no savings, and no will. He had one small asset, a truck that was paid off, but was worth only about $2,000. I had him cremated and had a memorial service for him at the funeral home that my family had always used for our family members' funerals. I decided that I would keep his ashes until our father passed away and then put them in the casket with Dad. Little did I know that Dad would pass away only 16 days later (but, that's another story.) I ended up burying half of his remains with Dad, but I saved the other 1/2, and 2 months later, B1 and I, along with about 2 dozen of my brother's closest friends, took them to his favorite place in the world, Red River Gorge, and scattered them at Chimney Top Rock.

The arrangements that you make for your brother obviously won't be the same as the arrangements that I made for mine, but my point is, it is very possible to give your brother a proper funeral service on a very small budget. You have my phone number if you'd like to talk or ask me any questions. I may be able to give you some suggestions about obtaining services for far less than full price.

I've suffered a lot of losses in my life. But, losing my brother was one of the hardest. It remains so, all of these years later. You have my deepest sympathies. I can only suggest that you try to find some comfort in knowing that that your brother is no longer suffering.


----------



## pidge70

Thank you for your words EI. I just cannot find it in me to have Paul cremated even though it would be cheaper. Plus, I think that might send my youngest brother over the edge.


----------



## pidge70

Joe has really stepped up and I am so very grateful. He went ahead and put the $2000 deposit down for the funeral. This isn't easy for us financially with me being out of work. I'm going to make a more concerted effort to look for work after finals are over.


----------



## pidge70

Such an ass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

I had not been following CWI, but I got an email notification on this thread just now. I'm very sorry for the loss of your brother. Best to you and Joe. I understand things are strained. Best to both of you.


----------



## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> I had not been following CWI, but I got an email notification on this thread just now. I'm very sorry for the loss of your brother. Best to you and Joe. I understand things are strained. Best to both of you.


Thanks Harken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

She is chatting with a guy that she has very sexual conversations with. Confronted her and her response is I don't care . 
But I'm the ass


----------



## Dyokemm

Pidge,

I have always admired your bravery in coming on here as a WS and staying despite the fact this place can be brutal to waywards.

I hope this is more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

Stay strong and don't backslide into wayward behaviors....you have been down such a long, hard road and learned a lot....don't throw that away.


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## synthetic

joe kidd said:


> She is chatting with a guy that she has very sexual conversations with. Confronted her and her response is I don't care .
> But I'm the ass


Dear Pidge, is this true?


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## Tron

joe kidd said:


> She is chatting with a guy that she has very sexual conversations with. Confronted her and her response is I don't care .
> But I'm the ass


Boundaries, Pidge.


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## bandit.45

Aw damn. Hate to see this.


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## bandit.45

Sorry this is happening again to you Joe. 

Maybe it's time to call it quits. You both have been unhappy for so long. Staying together for,this kids is no longer a good enough reason. She's acting out again and you're miserable, and have been for the last couple of years. It's got to end.


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## joe kidd

We are just not compatible . 
Our problems reach far beyond infidelity. 
We gave it 20 years . 
She's miserable as am I .
I'll eat my blame and she will eat hers and we will move on. 
She has spoken with a lawyer to get a consultation. 
I should probably do the same. 
There is only so much glue and paint you can put on something . 
I hope we can work this split out with out getting nasty. 
That will take me realizing I won't get everything I want .


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## GusPolinski

joe kidd said:


> We are just not compatible .
> Our problems reach far beyond infidelity.
> We gave it 20 years .
> She's miserable as am I .
> I'll eat my blame and she will eat hers and we will move on.
> She has spoken with a lawyer to get a consultation.
> I should probably do the same.
> There is only so much glue and paint you can put on something .
> I hope we can work this split out with out getting nasty.
> *That will take me realizing I won't get everything I want .*


So long as BOTH of you realize this, it should be all the easier to come to an amicable -- or, at the very least, _acceptable_ -- settlement.


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## drifting on

Pidge and Joe,

I'm sorry to hear this news, I feel sadness for both of you as I know you both love each other deeply. Each marriage has its difficulties and sometimes, even though you love each other very much, it's best to divorce. I have always pulled for you two to make it through reconciliation, but not all succeed. I will pray that during the process of divorce you both remember the love you have for each other, and reach an amicable settlement. I wish you both the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Never mind


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## Clay2013

I am sorry for both of you. I know you have been on here for a long time. Its gotta be painful to just keep going through this. I hope you both can part as amicable as possible. At least you both tried. 

I hope you keep us updated. 

C


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## imjustwatching

People told you years ago to divorce your cheating wife but you refuse to take their advices and stayed with her....
Look at your now she's doing it again and you can't blame no one but yourself your the one who stayed knowing how much she respect you .


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## joe kidd

I don't recall anyone here telling me that. 
But thanks anyway..... I think .


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## bandit.45

joe kidd said:


> I don't recall anyone here telling me that.
> But thanks anyway..... I think .


I don't remember anyone saying that either. 

Joe make sure you are talking to someone about this. Not just us...someone real. 

And stay out of that bottle....


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## joe kidd

Haven't touched it this week man. 
6 beers a week is my limit and it usually takes me 2 days to drink them. 
Lost my tolerance . 3-4 and I want to go to sleep.


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## joe kidd

The thing is that I'm not devastated. 
Pissed yes, but not distraught.
Might have worded my 1st post wrong . She just has been chatting with him on FB. 
The sex crap was during 2010. 
My beef is that she shouldn't be talking to him at all. 
IMO that shows me no respect. 
If she is unhappy that's fine. 
She can be as is anyone's right. 
My point is LEAVE ME if that is the case. 
There is no love lost here. 
She knew what something like this would bring and did it anyway. Made no effort to hide that she was talking to him so I believe this is her way out. 
I'm not going to keep her in chains and really we were just trying to be a family for the kids I think .


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## bandit.45

Yeah..when it is dead it is dead. No more beating the corpse. Let Pidge go find herself Mr. Right, and you go and heal and find a woman you are compatible with. Like everyone else says, try to do the divorce as amicably as possible. Just put it to bed.


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## joe kidd

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah..when it is dead it is dead. No more beating the corpse. Let Pidge go find herself Mr. Right, and you go and heal and find a woman you are compatible with. Like everyone else says, try to do the divorce as amicably as possible. Just put it to bed.



I don't even think it's Mr Right she wants. 
It's just to be away from me.
There is way too much resentment built up and we can't get past it. 
In the last year I just shut down and shut her out. If I did speak to her it was dripping with condescension or sarcasm. 
I pushed her away so I can't whine . 
I really think we bring out the worst in one another.


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## bandit.45

joe kidd said:


> I don't even think it's Mr Right she wants.
> It's just to be away from me.
> There is way too much resentment built up and we can't get past it.
> In the last year I just shut down and shut her out. If I did speak to her it was dripping with condescension or sarcasm.
> I pushed her away so I can't whine .
> I really think we bring out the worst in one another.


I think we all saw that. Well I'm glad you have finally made a decision bro. 

It's sad...it seems like alot of TAM marriages are finally coming to an end...you and Pidge, and I guess Calvin and CSS are on the downhill slide again....

Damn....


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## MattMatt

Hope it works out for you all the best that it can. Sorry. Really sorry this has happened.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Looked at the finances and saw that unless I file bankruptcy there is no way I could pay child support and live in anything but a cardboard box. 
Be seeing a lawyer about that this week.


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## turnera

How old are the kids?


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## joe kidd

15 and 6. 
We did fine with 2 incomes. 
I won't be able to keep up with everything . 
It was expected. Hate to do it but it's just a matter of time before I got behind on things.


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## turnera

Eh, many a kid have had to deal with less. Go read Angela's Ashes; it will make you feel better about your situation.


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## pidge70

So....yeah. We are still together. Not really sure why. We've been getting along the past few days, but my resentment runs deep.

Most of the time we just ignore each other. Only speaking to one another if it is necessary.


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## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> Most of the time we just ignore each other. Only speaking to one another if it is necessary.


This is pretty much how we keep the peace. Avoid all interactions but the necessary. We get along best when we are not together and that is most of the time. Hopefully that will change at some point. For you and Joe too. We have some pleasant phone conversations when we are arranging and coordinating things for the girls. Beyond that, it gets nasty pretty quick.


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## nekonamida

Pidge, I relate very much to your posts. My mother-in-law has BPD. She has never gotten help for it but amazingly, I have watched her blossom in the last 6 years that I have known her from an angry, resentful mess into a much more peaceful and happy individual. It was a transformation that I nor her son/my husband ever thought possible. 

She did it by removing people who brought her down. That includes former husbands. She finally found someone she was compatible with and while he's not perfect, the way he treats her is leagues better than Husband #1 and Husband #2. He is understanding of her frustration and does not make it worse for her when she is stressed out. She still had big ups and downs because of her dysfunctional relationship with her mother but when her mother passed, she was truly able to breathe. She took stock of her life and made some changes to her work that made her happy and brought in extra income. She finally got a life improving surgery she needed. Her life is not perfect and she still has stressful situations to deal with at times but it is no where near the sh!t show I witnessed 6 years ago. It's comfortable and freeing for her.

If you want to be happy and stop being miserable, you can't sit around and expect happiness to be handed to you on a silver platter. You can't expect your situation with Joe to ever improve while you do nothing. If he won't go to counseling, that doesn't mean that you can't go yourself. If you cannot find peace and happiness while married to him and he won't pull the trigger, that doesn't mean you can't see a lawyer and figure it out yourself. Do something, anything, for yourself whether it includes Joe or not. Get yourself healthy with or with out him. And once you are in a better place, you can decide what is best for yourself regarding him. 

The best thing that you can do for your kids is be the best version of yourself that you can be. It's impossible to achieve that without putting in the work. That doesn't mean you have to do it all at once. Take it one step at a time, one day at a time. Find a counselor for yourself. Spend an extra 10 minutes a day on doing something just for you. Every little step makes the next one that much easier.


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## pidge70

Things are good, really good actually. We both decided to put our petty crap to the side. While our relationship isn't perfect, it's the best it's been in years.


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## Harken Banks

This is good news. You are good people who have hurt each other back and forth over the years. Happens in every relationship to a greater or lesser degree. 
There is always a reason and justification that makes sense from at least one perspective. I am happy for where you are.


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## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> This is good news. You are good people who have hurt each other back and forth over the years. Happens in every relationship to a greater or lesser degree.
> There is always a reason and justification that makes sense from at least one perspective. I am happy for where you are.


Thanks Harken. It's been a long time in the making. We've learned to let go of the little things that used to cause huge blowups. We still fail at times, but we're only human.


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## bandit.45

pidge70 said:


> Thanks Harken. It's been a long time in the making. We've learned to let go of the little things that used to cause huge blowups. We still fail at times, but we're only human.


Is he still drinking?


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## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> Is he still drinking?


Very rarely, and not to the extent he used to. He works overnight, so he's pretty much too tired.


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## bandit.45

Good.


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## turnera

You're the second couple I've read about this morning who have moved on from bad times and basically worked things out. I'm of a mind that simply getting older has a lot to do with that. I'm in that boat. Actually started packing up some of my important stuff, yet this weekend I'm thinking...on to what? The older you get, the more you have to weigh what's left to be important in your life, you know?


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## karole

pidge70 said:


> Things are good, really good actually. We both decided to put our petty crap to the side. While our relationship isn't perfect, it's the best it's been in years.


So happy for you Pidge!


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## Clay2013

I was wondering the other day how the both of you were doing. I am glad to hear your both still together and working things out. Good for you both.

C


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## pidge70

Clay2013 said:


> I was wondering the other day how the both of you were doing. I am glad to hear your both still together and working things out. Good for you both.
> 
> C


Thank you sir. Will be 24yrs this November. He really is a good guy. We both screwed up so much. We will be fine though, we've grown a lot.


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## pidge70

karole said:


> So happy for you Pidge!


Thanks girl, and thank you for being my friend. I appreciate it.


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