# The untitled hurt before marriage (very long)



## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Well I am here posting, so it's not a good story, but what thread in CWI is? 

Its been over 10 months (d-day Aug-12 2012) and I wanted to share my pain, in hopes that I can get direction towards saving my marriage. And otherwise advice from people that has overcome the same pain and recovered from a PA from the past. I'm hurt,crushed and torn apart to the very last fabric of my heart and love for my wife. 

The betrayal starts with a little background story or the "Coles notes" of us.

We started as a online dating couple back in late winter of 2003 myself was 27 and she was 24 at the time, our profiles where a match and after the season ended of motorcycle racing and the off season was upon us, I decided to move into her house. And we were working out well for us, one thing lead to another then the best thing in my life happened, the love of my life became pregnant with twin girls! This was great news for me, because I am also a twin and on my side the family there was another 4 set of twins! it kind of runs in the family  So after 10 years in racing and traveling abroad, I decided to start a new chapter in my life and settle down "with the one" I proposed to my girlfriend and soon to be mother of my twin girls and she said yes. 

Fast forward three years, the family is doing good, both of us are doing great job wise, I moved to a career in I.T since the racing life was tough task for a father of two and since I been using my part time I.T. career to fund my racing addiction lifestyle at time, I figured why not go full time? but this is when the first signs of trouble start to appear.

In October 2006 her company decided to send her to Las Vegas for a convention, and thats when the cracks in the armor started to show. After she came back she was different, and I mean spacy, out in left field, my gut check told me something happened. A few weeks later I found emails from this guys with pictures of them going to various tourist attractions in Vegas but no real smoking gun and none of the emails were solid proof of a ons, there must been 50+ emails, but I did suspected that she had PA/ONS when One email I found was saying thank you for great few days we had. And thats all nothing else. I asked her if you have anything to tell me about Vegas? She told me nothing happened and she gaslighted me and then she did a great job of making me feel I was such jerk for even thinking like that and accusing her O.N.S. with him. After that conversation, all the emails between them were deleted. (Yes I should have backed them up)

Then the first hammer dropped. 

When I was in her office a few months after I found those emails, one of her co-workers he was a young kid (they and few others went to Vegas with her) came up and said "I have to tell you something" you should really know this And BAM, I found out from him that my bride to be was kissing and holding hands with this another man in public while in front her co-workers which were mostly a part of some church group. And he felt that I should know. And it was the OM in photos that I found in those emails weeks beforehand. But once again, I confronted her with all this new info and she denied everything, but the thing that pisses me off is that one of the photos was posted on her Facebook and the other man sitting right next to her! For everyone and my family to see! Well by this time, the co-worker that gave me this info left his job to moved on with advancing his career just weeks after telling me and by that time needless to say, my soon to be wife again denied and twisted everything into it was me being jealous and accusing her something that never happened. It took a few months, but it was a successful rug swept and nothing was brought up again because I really had nothing that i can prove. But for some reason even if this story is true and nothing did happen, no one in a committed relationship should act this way IMHO. But again I had a lot of doubts, but like I said I swept it under the rug.


Fast forward a few months to February 2007 we set the date ! it was set in stone for September 2007 to get married! a week after racing season ended. Yes I was back to working with a few racing series because I understood I.T/computers and racing. The money was very good and it basically paid for our wedding and paid the monthly bills at the same time. But the racing took me all over North America in short time frame. From March till September 2007 I was only home maybe 14 days tops! And this time going racing was a job that I actually hated, because I spent a lot of time away from my soon to be wife but mainly my two little sweet twin daughters that were only 2 years old and they didn't understand why I was not home anymore. Yes everyday I made the effort to call them while I was on the road or in hotel heck even in the queue at the airport, I missed all of them dearly. 

So by the time June hit I was busy with being away working and the phone calls became shorter and shorter but we started to argue over the phone with her, about what else money! etc.. things for weddings, (she wanted the nice dress and a horse and carriage) I didn't think much of it, since I figured either her "moon-time" was coming or was sad and missing me, but her mood became very short with me over time. I figured it just me being away and the stress of our wedding plans and the wedding planner putting ideas into her head, about upgrading stuff that cost a lot! But a few days later I was home and she was not pleasant to say the least with me, but for me I was naive and didn't think abotu an affair at the time, I was glad to just be home even if it was only for a 48 hours, I made it for my girls birthday. And to see the look on my kids faces was worth it. And thats were my gut start to rumble a bit. During this time at the party all of the bridesmaids were there and a brother of one of the bridesmaids as well and I have never seen him before. 

During the party, I tried to chat but this person named "Steve" but he had chip on his shoulders and was actually very rude to me in my own house! And when I mentioned this to my soon to be wife, I was verbally knifed by her saying how bad of man I was for getting insulted and the Steve was the only nice guy in my house. This didn't sit right with me. But then again, I had no f***ing clue of what was going on at the time, my mind was occupied with work and bills and when my flight was taking off. Again this was the only time I met this guy, and for the rest of June and july, I was home only for 5 days and I was in a mode where I had to no choice but to work so I can some how come up with a lot of money just for the wedding and to pay our normal monthly bills. It was stressful to say the least being looked upon to provide so much in so little time, I just wanted to travel to Florida keys or an island down there to get married and have 15-30 family & guess. But I gave her everything she wanted I did it all for her to be happy. 

The big day happened and we started our Married life together and I felt like a million bucks! My dream of a loving wife and great family was complete. Well I'm in CWI for reason and yes the bomb dropped and I was crushed and reality hit me hard when, four months later that came it all came to a halt when my wife left her hotmail and and facebook logged in when I saw a new email from "Steve" I was shocked, after spending hours of reading through emails and facebook messages between her and steve and her friends, a few things became known to me. At the time I didn't know anything about what an EA's was. I really had no clue, I can fix things from Cars to motorcycles to computers but I never even realised what an EA was, and after reading my wife's emails from April 2012 to the first week in August (just three and half weeks before we got married) she was having EA with this guys Steve! the best bridesmaid brother! The details of those emails is what's killed me and to this very day still haunts me. All the messages claiming his and her love for each other, to her bragging to her friends and sister about her crush turned into love for this POS, and even her sister helped with the planning of this affair, by telling her to go to the house party that hosted by the best bridesmaid to see Steve ( WTF!) I also found out they had lunch at least once when I was out of town, they went out for lunch and was told this by my wife and that best bridesmaid was there with Steve, and I didn't think much of it at the time and turns out it was just her and Steve. It was almost Christmas time and felt so awful about it all. To read about it all and that the POSOM try to convice her to leave me for him. And especial all the toxic friends and family not stepping to inform her of her bad ways they rewarded her! Total crushed.... 

Regardless, with all the messages & all of her bridesmaids/family & friends saying nothing happened & the hundreds of phone calls (VoIP phone logs) and the wife getting mad at me, saying "get over it nothing happened" that I'm jealous and that I'm controlling etc and a lot of "verbal abuse" from myself and her that I/we had to endure for a few months I gave up and blamed myself. Yup I rug swept it all away again! Stupid me but she is not dumb by any means, my wife is one smart cookie when it comes to manipulation. I mean I was so convinced that I was the one at fault (in my mind). Again stuipid does it again by forgiving her for her EA and decided on moving forward after a bumping few months.

And after many months later a unplanned surprise happened the news that my wife was having a babyboy! And the thought of baby boy is was another light at the end of the tunnel and I pushed past the bad memories about the my wifes EA behind me. Many years have past and our marriage was getting better or dare I say the best its ever been, to me being proud again of my life and the way it has turned out, although not perfect but I/we were happy, sure money was tight and we did our part by reducing our family bills and almost wiping out our entire debt, felt great and under control, we weather the storm of my Wifes EA and I was even at the point where my wife does the "girls night out" once,twice a month without me feeling any anxiety at all and I was happy with my trust levels with her and in general I was happy. 

The final blow hit me hard, Sunday August 12,2012 (d-day) We were outside on the porch watching our three kids play in the front lawn just before bedtime and we got onto the topic of her EA, and I said to her I'm so happy you never had sex with him and that I loved her and felt sorry for accusing her of cheating on me. Thats when she got up out of her chair and look away from me and told me she did have sex with him ( It felt like a kick to the nuts) but I didn't even get angry, I didn't move, I was numb. She just told me that she had affair all summer long EA/then PA and ended weeks before we got married. And all those emails were true. And she told me this without showing any remorse or regret/guilt just cold face and said it was 5 years ago and I show get over it/ it never matters. like she didn't care what she just did to me then she walked inside the house and put the kids to bed. 

I was speechless

The facts:

* For months my wife didn't care for my feelings by TT & gaslighting the affair after the EA & when she informed me of the PA. 
* I found out that this POSOM named Steve asked her not to marry me and to go with him. 
* All the bridesmaids but one knew about the affair and helped protect the truth.
* I suspected the wedding planner knew because she tried to convince to call it off because I was so stress out over money, but i'm not 100% sure one this
* my second best man knew of the affair, and was friend of my wifes that I knew for a long time.
* My wifes sister knew of the affair, help push her towards the POSOM and then covered it all up with the help of my wife for 5 years! 

After everything I did, the help I offered them to all my wifes friends and family over the years, I'm crushed by everyone involved, I have helped in many ways, from teaching them how to drive & getting their Drivers license, to being there when they need someone for to help them save money (fixing cars and computers), or they where is shocked after a car accident(s) they call me for help, or when they needed help with money etc so they can feed their children. Heck I was there for my SIL to drive her to all the doctors appointments and hospital visits and they didn't have a car at the time, $hit they were family I drop everything to help them, and for what? I guess I didnt mean much to them.

For the past ten months I've said and done things I'm not proud of, but I have not touch her in a physical way. about few weeks later I pretty much ripped up all the wedding pictures and crush the weeding crush in my vise my garage. Not the best move at the time it's how I felt. Anger & resentment is my main issue (and still is today) 

I did set some boundaries in our marriage after lurking on this forum and other sites and they seemed to help a bit, but I'm still getting a lot of hostility from the wife. I asked her to have NC with the POSOM but he was out of the picture before the marriage, and her toxic friends that knew about it and helped her cover it all up to stay away from. I also asked my wife that her sister (my SIL) not to come to our house anymore or ask us for any type of help. As she has a lot of issues with her own moral compass, I've told my wife many times that she can talk & go to her house becaus its her sister and I can't ask for NC for her, but I felt at the time (me being filled with rage-liked angry issues) for my SIL not to come to our house. And the girls nightoput has to stop for the time being, since my trust with her is broken. Yes as I look back on the five plus year we've been married since I found out of her so called EA before I knew about the PA, she has been pretty good at keeping herself out of situations where questions can be raised (except for her lying) I'll give her credit and thats why I haven't separated or file for divorce. And to point out that I have not been a great husband since d-day and I've been battling triggers, mind movies TT, rug sweeping and the most haunting answer she keeps telling, when asking her of what were you thinking at about during the affair, wedding etc. she always gave answers that was either BS in my mind "I don't know or can't remember because it was soo long ago" 

Due to economics and lack work I am a SAHD that now looks after the house and kids during the day most days and I work from home doing I.T. work during the evenings and overnight. Right now I don't know what to do, I'm angry at times & resentment is still strong, triggers are happening far too often for my liking. The wife has been somewhat trying to help me, but most times she just get mad/fustrated and starts a fight, even getting to the point that she was getting verbal abusive towards me. For not getting over it and taking me the wrong way. And that frustrates me at times. 

I'm looking for answers still about why she did this to me and our family. am I plan "B" etc these are my questions that keep coming up and I'm just looking answers to resolving my feelings to "get over it" but I'm finding this a struggle. I feel ashamed that I still love my wife even though I can't stand her for what she has put me through. My wife agreed to start IC about a month ago for her own issues and I'm not sure if they even started on her moments before the weddings today yet, I think they are working on herself. I have seen a bit of improvement in some ways with her and me. I know I'm not perfect and I tried going to counselling once, and that after the first session, it was a complete failure. The counselor told me to get ready for a divorce. When I'm trying to stay and make something of this trainwreck. After all I know since we were married my wife has been faithful and had to EAs or PAs. 

I'm still lost but before she told me on d-day, I was a very happy man with a very happy family and in love, and now its just sad how everything unfolded.


Sorry for this very long post, it took me a few weeks sitting on the fence and to build up some courage to type this out and to start this thread. 

Thank you TAM for all the help.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

for any bad spelling, grammar or just left out missing words, I suck and writing, let alone making sense half the time these days.

I'm sorry


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm sure right now you regret ever going through with this marriage. But one thing you'll learn from this forum: without true remorse, a reconciliation is not possible. Either 1) your wife will stray again with someone else or 2) it will consume you to the point that you will come to hate your wife or even cheat on her yourself out of revenge. It MUST be dealt with immediately or you will waste years of your life.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Brother, I am so sorry you are here.

There is so much here... What do you want? Divorce, Reconciliation?

Your wife has been a mirage... Look at her with open eyes for the first time in your life and then decide. Her bridesmaids, all save one on pieces of crap!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Random thoughts

Your wife is not likely to change. What she did was not a "mistake", it's a clear indication of who and what she is. Her attitude when confessing what happened confirms this clearly. 

She is a selfish and manipulative child. She will help you heal only so far as it helps her. You are a piece _in_ her world, not _of_ her world. Mix in the toxic friends and family, and your counselor was spot on to suggest that you prepare for divorce. 

I'm really sorry man. I feel your pain. You aren't going to fix her. She's broken. What she did was ice cold. Your marriage can be managed and stretched out for a long time especially if you continue to play her game, but its likely doomed. 

A marriage built on lies this deep and painful can't be repaired. The foundation is rotten. It can only be dozed to the ground and rebuilt, but that takes two. You don't have that.

JMHO.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Normally I'm the glass half full type of woman but this case speaks to a level of cheating that borders on sociopathic in nature. No remorse, no compassion with the attitude of "get over it?" 

If you like a heaping helping of agony with more agony on the side then by all means stay with this woman. You will experience death by a thousand cuts. 

No matter the cost, you will never get past what she did to you and every time you look at her you will remember. Run now...and be free of her pain.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Okay lets put this in perspective with my favorite thing numbered points!

1. You suspect she does cheat in vegas and she turns it around and makes you look like garbage.

2. You confront again and she turns it around AGAIN makes you look like a chump this time.

3. She invites him to YOUR wedding. How does it feel to be fvcked over maybe his gift to her was more SPECIAL than you know.

4. She then hides it for YEARS when it does come out she tells you it was only an EA and that your feelings have no validity basically she was completely justified in cheating on you and you just need to live with it.

5. She FINALLY comes clean and here is the winner she shows no remorse and just tells you to again get over it so what if she screwed the guy right up until you marriage you should just feel privileged to have her as part of your life. So what if her and her family and friends LAUGHED at you while enabling her affair. You just need to move on.

6. She trapped you with the kids the only reason she came clean is because she thinks she has you by the short hairs. You are her BVTCH and she can do what she wants when she wants.

7. She is in IC and is starting to get better. You really think this will matter? The IC is for HER not you and she can choose to say what she wants and does not want to say.

8. Your own counseling said to prepare for divorce. Huh wonder why?


So here is the deal she does not love you. She loves her LIFE you are just necessary component in that life. And you have done nothing but throw tantrums she has not really had to face any REAL consequences to her actions. You want to to know what to do?


1. Go over to SIL house and have it out get mad, get fvcking pist and let her have it. If you know of anyone else do it to them to. You don't have to get violent but make a damn scene don'e be child.

2. Fvck IC she needs to go to MC one that specializes in infidelity and has read Not Just Friends.

3. Timeline of what happened and when.

4. You need to look up uncontested divorce and start going through the paperwork. 

5. You need to look at yourself you will never get past this as it is. You just won't instead you will live in a toxic marriage that will poison your kids until finally you have had enough and leave if you think you will be able to deal with it. Because you will not honestly look at your actions and you state of mind do you think this is going to get BETTER, it is not it is only going to get worse. You have been living a lie for years what you thought was a good marriage was one built on lies and deception and self indulgence. You cannot even start to work on a new marriage until she decides to FINALLY take some responsibility for her actions which she has not. You think you love her but what you really love is who you thought she was that was a lie the real her is a person who is fine with betraying others and spreading her legs for even weeks before the marriage then inviting him to the WEDDING. Come on start the paper work take back some of your dignity also read the 180 and start doing it. She is poison that will eventually corrupt all the good in YOU.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Is divorce an option ?


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## NativeSun09 (Mar 28, 2013)

It seems quite obvious that your wife does not respect you. She's trying to abate her guilt by being mean to you because SHE messed up. You should by all means possible consider divorce. Your situation is not going to get better. She played you like a chump and so did her family and friends which is despicable. Whatever you do, consult a lawyer and figure out how you will provide for your family in the event of a divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

BTW the POSOM never came to the wedding, just his sister as the best bridesmaid.

Warlock, at this point in time divorce is really not a option, due to a lack of real income to afford a place on my own. As for staying with family, I pretty much on my own as for my folks (married 45+years) they have no room for me and plus I cannot live my dad, he's a hard man to deal with at times, but I respect him. 

I spend a lot of time taking care of my three kids and working part time. I thought about divorce a lot when my feelings get real bad and if I had the income, I would go run to get away from her. even separated its just in the cards for me to do right now because I invest all my money in the business and right now its not making money to pay me enough to leave, the business is breaking even right now. 

CEL: you make very good and valid points. Yes it s tough pill to swallow and I know what must be done, but I feel that there is some true to her lying, she pretty much told me that it was self preservation mode for so long in fear of me going over the top. So I can't blame her in that respect. but I do blame her for cheating and making me marry under false pretences.

.

daggeredheart: I can relate to what you said, its painful to think about everything that went on and with whom. I just need to get my head in order and work a bit hard to afford to leave. But my question is, because she has been faithful since the wedding. should I give it a try. AS stupid as it sounds. I'm just trying to deal with the recovery pain. So I can overcome it and just maybe it can work it out. its sounds foolish but there must be others like me with this type problem, I can't be the only one. If anything she is serial liar but not a serial cheater. That I have proof of. And with her IC sessions it may help her in the long run. I just hoping it will improve our current relationship for the kids sake. As for a MC counselor I feel she is scared to go because she doesn't want to feel like she being attacked, or judged. I even tried to get her to post her but she said "no F**king way in fear of being attacked by trolls and haters." 

I would like to try to reconcile our marriage but until she starts to show real remorse, I can't get over the pain. And currently I know she is trying with IC but I know she can try harder with me. she seems to think she is doing enough, but I have told her many times she needs to step up. I'm sharing my story to help me since I'm pretty much alone out here, since I'm waiting in limbo to see if I need more time to recover and stay married or become divorced. I'd figure I can wait, get a bit more money saved up and make a decision to stay or end the marriage. its just the all these dark feelings pretty much suck while looking after three kids that are 4 and the girls 9 as of today.

Plan 9 from OS: yes I do regret getting married, but if I didn't then my son would never have been born. which makes it harder to think about. because he's a great boy I love him. Over the past 10 month I thought about a lot things, and I did think of revenge cheating, but thats not me. I would go against my morals. at about 4 months after d-day I did hate my wife, heck even my life but somehow I got through it by a little rug sweeping just get my mind back on track to figure money issues.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Okay moto I think I got a better idea of what you are looking for. So for the record I could care less what you decide whether to divorce or reconcile I post only to help you do what YOU want to do. So you want to R and that is a choice sounds like you are in no position to D anyway so lets work on what you will need to R.

1. NC "no contact" with ALL of the people who enabled her. Her sister is tricky I would severly limit as you have said I think most of this has been done but I am going to go throug it all so you can see it.

2. Timeline from her in writing with ALL of it layed out the times they met the times they talked, screwed, oral whatever the whole she bang. This is for you to know it all get all the lies out in the light no more darkness. And no more Trickle Truth.

3. A letter from her to you this is all about how she feels for what she has done she can have time to work on this but you need to SEE it. 

4. Keep a diary this is so you can communicate about how you feel and how she feels if you have questions you put them in the diary and she can answer them this is for you to be able to get your feelings out in the open and for her to understand how you feel.

5. Full Transparency you seem like you already have this but hey see point one.

6. Be honest with her tell her you don't know if you can reconcile with her after all this time. Lay it out she deserves to hear it and you need to say it no more of this covert contract crap. A convert contract is when you hold people to something without telling them. Right now you are saying if she does not do X you will divorce by Y. Let her know where you are. Yes this will hurt her but you need to respect yourself and her by telling the truth.

7. Start the MC tell her you will not chose one that is not comfortable with but this is something that you both need to do. It really is that important right now you have massive problems communicating in a REAL way MC is all about that but again find one that has read Not Just Friends and specializes in infidelity also find one that does not advocate Just Moving On.

8. This final one is something that I could not recommend strongly enough there is a website called AFFAIRCARE | …nouthetic, Christian care after an affair. just follow the link it has many articles on infidelity and how to deal with it. Very insightful. The person who runs it is also on this site here is the profile Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Affaircare I would recommend you send her a PM as she is AWESOME help for people who want to R and are dealing with your specific suggestion you can ask for private advice or for her to chim in on the thread. Or try to contact her through her website. Like I said I think she could really help you with a comprehensive plan.

9. KEEP POSTING we can help you but if you go away or hide the truth then well you pretty much are on your own sorry to say.

Now a few questions

1. Is she remorseful? 

2. What does she have to say about her choices?

3. How does she feel about what she has done to you and your family?

4. We need to know her state of mind if we are going to help you.

Good luck and we are here for BOTH of you. I would recommend she post to this thread if she is really wanting to talk to others without the bashing http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html this is an area where everyone is very considerate and they could really help her get a good idea what you are going through. You would be better served keeping all your stuff to one thread tho.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

moto said:


> I even tried to get her to post her but she said "no F**king way in fear of being attacked by trolls and haters."


Send her to SI. Maybe she will get there some common sense.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Divorce her.

Borrow the money....live in a box under a bridge. Anything would be better than sacrificing your soul and dignity to this vampire.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

In addition to all the other advice you've received..........you must somehow convince her that although this affair is "old news" to her, it feels like it just happened to you! This is one reason for a lack of remorse on her part, she's over it and ready to move on. While to you on the other hand, it's just as fresh as bread just out of the oven. I don't think they understand this! On d-day my WW, just after she confessed to her most recent escapades, confessed to having a two year PA 25 years ago! She was very remorseful about the recent affairs, but rather indifferent about about the old affair. I got "I don't remember, it was so long ago." to almost all my questions. Well it wasn't that long ago to me! I just found out! She still had the OM as a "friend" on FB two months after d-day. I about blew a gasket on that one. And she honestly couldn't see what the problem was. "Were just friends now". Really!!! Well not anymore! My WW "got" everything else, but for some reason she couldn't get this. Still not sure if she really does.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

moto said:


> Its been over 10 months *(d-day Aug-12 2012*)
> 
> In *October 2006* her company decided to send her to Las Vegas for a convention, and thats when the cracks in the armor started to show. After she came back she was different, and I mean spacy, out in left field, my gut check told me something happened. A few weeks later I found emails from this guys with pictures of them going to various tourist attractions in Vegas but no real smoking gun and none of the emails were solid proof of a ons, there must been 50+ emails, but I did suspected that she had PA/ONS when One email I found was saying thank you for great few days we had.


You're off on your d-day by 6 years, don't bullsh1t yourself, you're not doing yourself any favors, call it like it is, you've known for 6 years that she couldn't be trusted.

By the way, none of this is tragic to her, it's business as usual in her mind... 

T


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

There's no statute of limitations on infidelity. Tell her to take a fcuking hike.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Brother,

I just had to sell my house to get away from my ex. I'm living in a hotel for a couple of more days. I have 3 kids and they would rather stay with me in the hotel than go to their moms.

All the stuff that money can buy isn't worth having. I started a tradition. I take my boys and gf on adventures. We hike. We camp. We go to the beach. My artwork in my house is posters of my loved ones sharing in adventures, Swamp Tours, Zip Lining, Hiking, Days at the Lake etc...

I slept on the floor at my old house because my Ex took the bed when I was on travel. I loved going over to gf, nice soft king size bed.

The point is like Lost Viking said, nothing is worth selling your dignity for. I lived well below my means in order to bond better with my kids and to teach them what is important in life. It's not about stuff, its about family and love and making it through the tough times.

Children want your presence not your presents. Take the time to become a much better person and don't compromise who you should be for a little comfort.


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

Bottom line is you can't recover with a wayward who is truly not remorseful....no matter how hard you try or want it to happen!!! Not only is she not really remorseful she has no respect for you and has allowed everyone else around you two( family, friends etc) to laugh at you behind you back!!! 

Stay at Home Dad's notoriously get no respect from their wives and it seems to eat away at the fabric of the marriage. You are now trapped and basically subservient to your wife who works and brings home the bacon!! This further lessen's your statue in her eyes as well as all the everyone else in your lives!!

Just how do you plan on reversing the damage down to your marriage?? This is just not one affair but a way of life for your wife!!!:scratchhead:


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

ShootMePlz! said:


> Bottom line is you can't recover with a wayward who is truly not remorseful....no matter how hard you try or want it to happen!!! Not only is she not really remorseful she has no respect for you and has allowed everyone else around you two( family, friends etc) to laugh at you behind you back!!!
> 
> Stay at Home Dad's notoriously get no respect from their wives and it seems to eat away at the fabric of the marriage. You are now trapped and basically subservient to your wife who works and brings home the bacon!! This further lessen's your statue in her eyes as well as all the everyone else in your lives!!
> 
> Just how do you plan on reversing the damage down to your marriage?? This is just not one affair but a way of life for your wife!!!:scratchhead:


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Moto. Do you have complete transparency and can account for ALL her time?

Tigers dont change their stripes.

As you ponder this stuff, honestly start to make your exit plan. start with get a FT job.

If you VAR her car Im afraid you will find out more and more and more. Steve was OM2 there is a 50% chance she is now on roughly OM 4. Sorry. I call em as I see em.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

moto said:


> . . . Due to economics and lack work I am a SAHD that now looks after the house and kids during the day most days and I work from home doing I.T. work during the evenings and overnight. . .





moto said:


> . . . at this point in time divorce is really not a option, due to a lack of real income to afford a place on my own. . .


Dear moto,

I'm going to be blunt with you.

Your WW holds you in contempt because (1) you allowed her to carry on with another man right in front of your face (as an IT guy, you're too smart to claim that you didn't know what was going on) and then went ahead and married her anyway and (2) you are a SAHD who is financially dependent on her.

I don't understand you younger guys who think your woman will respect you if she brings home the bacon while you stay home and change diapers. Wake up. A million years of human evolution programmed woman only to respect men who protect and provide for them. All the feminist BS about women wanting men to assume female roles is just that, BS (except, of course, for the woman who wants a man at home to raise her kids while she's off scr*wing some other man).

You say divorce is not an option because you are financially dependent on her. OK, so job No. 1 is to become financially independent. Unless and until that happens, you are in a no-win situation. Once it happens, you will have some real options. Go read Horizon's thread (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/72375-after-lies-their-connection-fully-revealed.html) to see what is in store for you if you continue to be a SAHD.

Not to rub it in but your lack of reaction to your WW's adultery is shocking even by TAM standards. For crying out loud, man, you come from the land of the Mounties -- some of the most bad-*ss men to have roamed the planet in the past couple of centuries -- and that invented ice hockey -- the most violent activity a man can engage in without getting arrested. Learn from your ancestors, reclaim your heritage, GROW A PAIR.

Until then, stop whining about how bad you feel. You have no one to blame but yourself.

Instead, start to fix your life -- you have the power if you will only use it!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This will upset you, but DNA test all of the kids. I know, twins run in your family. This is about fixing you and showing your wife how much distrust you now have in the relationship.

I'd make sure she knew what you were doing. Yet, I'd tell her after the DNA was sent off. That way, she can scream, rant and say you are a bad person. Then you can say oops, the test was already done.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Moto,

Your wife shows no remorse. Unless or until she does, you will languish in misery as you experience a false R. Then at some point, I predict she will cheat on you again; simply because she has received no consequences from this and you present her as a cold hearted narcissist.

You say divorce is not an option now. But until it is, you have no ammunition to make any demands on her. Sure, you could ask her to do all the things the other posters have mentioned;but she knows she doesn't have to - because she knows you're not going to leave her. 

So, as I see it, you have got to put yourself in a position where you have a viable option to R or D.

If you can't divorce now due to finances, then get yourself in a position where you can. Look for a full time job. Get your resume out there. Make that the first priority in your life. Relying on your at home IT business for the long term may take too long.

In the mean time, go ahead and lay out your requirements to her for R. When she doesn't agree to them, and she won't; do the 180 on her, separate her from your bedroom and treat her like a room-mate until you get your financial house in order. Do things for yourself, get in shape, go out with friends on occasion, take your kids places without her. And keep looking for work. 

When you get to the point where D is an option, then you can take control. When you get there, either she demonstrates remorse and meets your requirements or you pull the trigger on the D. Just that simple.

Good luck to you.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Tony55 said:


> You're off on your d-day by 6 years, don't bullsh1t yourself, you're not doing yourself any favors, call it like it is, you've known for 6 years that she couldn't be trusted.
> 
> By the way, none of this is tragic to her, it's business as usual in her mind...
> 
> T


Tony hit the nail right on the head. D-day was six years ago, and you have been rug sweeping ever since till now.

Your wife is a serial cheater. DNA test the kids ASAP !


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Go to the links below. Get both books and read them both as fast as you can. Right now you have lost alll the respect of you r wife. You used to race bikes, now you are a babysitter/maid.

Read MMSLP. It will explain what has happened to your marriage currently. For example, she cheated but you are on the couch. In other words she wears the pants.

I think it odd she volunteered the info about porking the guy before your wedding. She may really be remorseful, in her way. Could she have been rubbing your nose in it.

Lastly, why are you certain she hasn't cheated since? If I had to bet, I would bet she had. Any other cheaters in her family?


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## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

If she's the bread winner then file for separation and spousal support.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Get a paternity test for the kids. They are cheap and you can do it from the privacy of your own home. She doesn't need to participate. Spend a few minutes on Google and you'll see plenty of options for around a hundred bucks or less. They are painless- a simple cheek swab.

No remorse = no chance for successful reconciliation of this issue.

Do not let fear make decisions for you. You will regret that route in the end.

Good luck
WD


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

I think it's telling from the length of the post you had alot to get off your chest.

The truth is, you're not staying because you want to save the marriage. You're staying because you can't/won't leave.

When someone shows you no remorse, tells you she banged someone else then doesn't even say sorry and just walks off..and what did you do? Well the truth is you can do nothing can't you.

No job, no place to go there is nothing you can do. Coupled with the fact her coldness means she's most likely detached and has been having sex with this guy all along..

No job, no place to go, wife has detached.. in her eyes you are impotent. Most likely she had low respect for you before the marriage (which is why she cheated), you being a stay at home dad, not going out to look for a job probably just killed it off in the end.

You are saving nothing because you are in no position to do anything and she knows it. She's in control and has always been in control. Unless you wrestle control back and start to change your life and be able to support yourself, you are deluding yourself about R.

p.s if the kids are of age to go to school/kindergarden you should get a job.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Did you exposed her to all the toxic friends and family and asked them to fooook off from your family?

You are not healing, you are not in true Reconciliation. For both to happen 1. She should be on her knees begging for your forgiveness 2. You should find a job. Untill then you are going to be there in a false R.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

> And the girls night out has to stop for the time being, since my trust with her is broken. Yes as I look back on the five plus year we've been married since I found out of her so called EA before I knew about the PA, she has been pretty good at keeping herself out of situations where questions can be raised (except for her lying)


She lies, feels no remorse, went on GNO, becomes abusive with no regard four your feelings. Yes this is a train wreck and her betrayal is blatant and cold blooded. She can never be trusted again. Why make excuses to stay with her? You should assume she has cheated after you where married too(GNO???).


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Has she also admitted to cheating in Vegas?

Given her history , it's likely that the few instances caught her are the tip of the iceberg and there has been a lot more cheating.

If it were me, I would doing the following

1. Getting a DNA test done on all the children.

2. Filing for D and custody and child support for the kids that are yours

3. I would be seeking that she pays your fees for the divorce.

4. Exposé the affair to your personal friends, it's pointless to expose to her family and friends since they have zero morals. You might let the trash know that the cats out of the bag and that they are human filth for letting it go on and even encourage it.

5. You may want to post Steve up on cheaterville.com 

6. Throw out your bed. They no doubt used it extensively that summer. You should also dump her lingerie , gifts he gave her, everything that he touched.

If you want to make a point, take the stuff, drive to the OMs sisters house and dump it on her lawn.

I don't see why you would stay with what is essentially a lying and abusive woman. Abusive because she chose to attack you and make you the bad guy when you asked for the truth. Also abusive because she has stolen these years from you. She married you under false pretense.

You should also get a polygraph to see if she cheated since getting the ring on your finger.


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## destroyedlife (Jun 21, 2013)

so moto that i should post my feelings about this thread...

i do feel remorse and i am sorry and he has full transparency and i know it that 100% of cheating is my fault. 

i am not a serial cheater and i lied because i hate conflict and for self preservation which is selfish. i know that now. i try to be a better person every day. there is no GNR and i do not drink anymore and have not in two years for personal reasons.

Not everything in his story is true, they are his assumptions of what he believes is truth because he does not believe anything i say. which is understandable and i try to tell him over and over again so maybe he will one day take it as truth and its very frustrating, i feel like a parrot and because i get frustrated hes says i am not remorseful. i am not abusive of him. disagreeing is not abusive. the last year has been very hard and over emotional for both of us. lots of hurtful things were said on both sides.

some of the comments on here are hurtful and unproductive. does anyone have anything helpful to say? or should i supply everyone with a cardboard box??? i dont mind going to the grocery store to get one for you..... really do you think that is helpful....(i know my sarcasm isnt...)

you dont know us and you dont know the whole story or our everyday lifes. the good times and the past 6 years of good times. the present should count for something. people make mistakes and screw up or however you want to say it, but some of us learn from it and become a better person.

Moto wants advice for coping not "shes a cheating ***** dump her ass" he said he wanted "R" not divorce or did you even read his post????? you shouldn't push people to one decision just because your so bitter not everyone wants divorce. respect his wishes. he wants help and is asking; why cannot you not just do that?? WHY?

if you cannot be positive and helpful, you shouldn't post. 

i feel sorry for you for being such a negative hateful person. 

oh and by the way, his kids are his and there is no doubt there. i like vampires too


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Many of us including me did give advice for trying to save your marriage. Your husband stopped posting. The things I outlined are simple and are for both of you to heal. Now I think I also recommended for you to post in the reconciliation thread as it us full of people all trying to do what you are doing. Have you posted? Some of us are trying to help you but if we get no response we move on as advice is a two way street we can't help either of you if you won't do the lifting. 

That being said we are still here trying to help. Hope both if you keep posting.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

destroyedlife said:


> so moto that i should post my feelings about this thread...
> 
> i do feel remorse and i am sorry and he has full transparency and i know it that 100% of cheating is my fault.
> 
> ...


Hurtful? You lied. You cheated. 

.
Now you demand we answer in a way that you like? 
Let me point a few things out:
Having an affair is hateful.
Having an affair is negative.
Having an affair is unproductive.
Having an affair is abusive.
Being cheated on is frustrating.

As to the advice:
Divorcing you is a way to COPE.
Just like offering counseling is a way to cope.
Just like getting DNA tests is a way to cope.

R doesn't work because YOU want positive advice.

I'd still have a DNA test done because you lied and cheated, your word would mean NOTHING to me. Now go post in the reconciliation thread like Cel mentioned.

Sure, we don't know the whole story, but insulting the advice shows me you are as selfish as he made you sound. Oh and after reading your post, where you make demands, blame shift, tell us how hard it is for you, how YOU feel like a parrot, that he should trust you that meanie and that we are hateful people; I understand why he says you aren't remorseful. Remember, you lied until you were caught. You had an affair BEFORE you were married. You do understand, that means the entire marriage was built on a lie.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Ok, advice for R.

1. You take a polygraph and come fully clean about your affairs, including Vegas guy.

2. Get the kids DNA tested. You say they are his, but frankly cheaters are fundamentally betrayed, liars, who will say anything to cover their choice to cheat. So you basically need to prove everything because through your own actions and choices, your word is worthless at thus point.

3. Get a new bed if you ever had sex with you OM in it, it's humiliating to your husband if he is sleeping in a bed used by another man to have sex with him,

4. Purge every piece of clothing, lingere,showed, jewelry you wore for the OM.

5. Destroy every picture you have of the OM or taken by the OM or on a date with the OM.

6. Destroy/trash every gift the OM gave you

7. Personally call the filth you call friends who supported and encourage your cheating and apologize for humiliating and betraying your husband, followed by telling them you are ending forever your relationship with them. That you are remorseful for humiliating him and you are ashamed to have friends that though what you did was ok.

8. Your sister - gone from any interaction with you and your kids. She's never been a friend of your family or marriage and its far past time you choose to be loyal to your husband.

9. Realize your word is no longer to be trusted, with valid cause.

10. Actually work on helping your husband heal from your betrayal. For you it may have been a hot sexy summer of fun and sex that was years ago, for him it's right now that he's found out that you willingly chose to betray him and lie to him. You knew that if he knew the truth he would dump you and not marry you. You married him under false pretense when you chose to lie.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

destroyedlife said:


> so moto that i should post my feelings about this thread...
> 
> i do feel remorse and i am sorry and he has full transparency and i know it that 100% of cheating is my fault.
> 
> ...


He seems to describe you accurately. You don't sound remorseful.

The thing is, when a betrayed spouse comes to this forum for advice, they don't get sugar coated fairy tales. Most of us have dealt with infidelity and have real life experience to rely on. And that experience tells us that when divorce is not an option, there is little motivation for wayward spouses such as yourself to demonstrate remorse. You say he only wants advice about coping, not D. That's like an alcoholic asking for advice on how to get sober, but only accepting it if he can still drink a little. 

So, I'll tell you the same thing I told your husband. Until you receive real consequences for what you did, and until you start demonstrating true remorse; he's likely to stay miserable. And you're likely to cheat again.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw, did you also cheat (have sex) with the Vegas guy ? What happened there?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

The people who supported the affair have to go. He should dna the kids for his peace of mind. You have to give him a full timeline then after reading it if he thinks you are holding out he should have you take a polygraph test.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Friend, you tricked this man into getting married, you used him, you made a fool of him, you commited fraud, he got married under false pretenses, you have been lying to your husband for years and years and once the truth came out you have no clue about the severity of all this and little to no empathy or understanding of wqhat's going on his heart and head. It's a huge trauma.
Stop defending yourself, stop the pity party, reach out, have compassion, assist him into healing from all this and for heavens sake, face the mirror, challenge yourself, make yourself someone safe to stay with. It's obvious he loves you and wants to stay with you. Don't take adventage of this, be grateful and do the heavy lifting here.

As you claim not everything in his initial post is the truth please, learn how to "quote" and point out the cracks.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

destroyedlife said:


> so moto that i should post my feelings about this thread...
> 
> i do feel remorse and i am sorry and he has full transparency and i know it that 100% of cheating is my fault.
> 
> ...


Looks like further proof. This one has no idea what she did!!

Think about it for a sec. he is married to you because you lied to him. You manipulated him into marrying you. If you hadn't lied, he wouldn't be with you. What does that tell you ?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

destroyedlife, you have deeply injured the man you are supposed to love above all others. Deeply, deeply injured.

Until you come out of yourself enough to truly care about his feelings, 'remorse' will just be a word to throw around.

Love, kindness, compassion, empathy, caring, sacrifice. These are the things you should have been giving him all along. Not deceit, self-righteousness, selfishness, and carelessness.

If you want constructive advice, you should start trying to act like you know what the golden rule means & begin to treat your husband the way you, as a human being, want to be treated, rather than someone to manipulate.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Also,divorcing is one way of coping


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

With all due respect...

It might not be easy to accept but most of the people here are not angry, damaged or negative. Many of us are mostly indifferent. No one here hates you, we just _see_ you. That's it. Simple, no emotion involved. Your manipulative little temper tantrum verified almost everything that has been said about you. 

You've got some serious growing up to do if your marriage is going to survive. The tactics you used in your reponse may work in your real life or with your husband, but not here. 

This is a fairly easy _read_. No offense really, but you and this whole situation are not complicated. For what little it's worth, I hope we are wrong. This once.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Married under false pretenses.

Never would have gotten married if he had known the truth beforehand. Was lied to by the other party to the contract.

My advice: divorce her and then allow her to remarry you with a pre-nuptial agreement in place. In the meantime, as the primary caregiver you should get custody as well as alimony and child support.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

destroyedlife said:


> so moto that i should post my feelings about this thread...
> 
> i do feel remorse and i am sorry and he has full transparency and i know it that 100% of cheating is my fault.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to comment on everything you said or what Moto is going through...but to address this part.

In a public forum, you're going to hear what OTHER people's perception of being helpful, productive etc. You're not going to hear what YOU think is helpful and productive.

For MANY people, helping Moto would be to get him away from you. For others it'd be to help you both reconcile. But you have to take both components and understand them.

You seem to want to take SOME accountability and then rugsweep. It doesn't work that way. If someone cut off your arm, you'd get used to living without it, but 20 years from now, you'd still miss it. Infidelity for many people is like losing a limb.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> Married under false pretenses.
> 
> Never would have gotten married if he had known the truth beforehand. Was lied to by the other party to the contract.
> 
> My advice: divorce her and then allow her to remarry you with a pre-nuptial agreement in place. In the meantime, as the primary caregiver you should get custody as well as alimony and child support.


Really don't think it was false at all..the red flags were glaring, even the way she treated him, the verbal coldness should have alerted him that something was off and this lady wasn't marriage material, but he's swept it away..and he continues to do so. I dont believe she had any respect for him at all.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

moto said:


> Well I am here posting, so it's not a good story, but what thread in CWI is?
> 
> Its been over 10 months (d-day Aug-12 2012) and I wanted to share my pain, in hopes that I can get direction towards saving my marriage. And otherwise advice from people that has overcome the same pain and recovered from a PA from the past. I'm hurt,crushed and torn apart to the very last fabric of my heart and love for my wife.
> 
> ...


OK, I read the whole post and here are my thoughts...

She doesn't love you. 

She only loves herself.

She's in her marriage solely for what she gets out of it.

Were it me, and I am sorry to say this, I'd file for divorce. 

She betrayed you flagrantly, didn't have any remorse and is basically laughing at you over it. She's just flicked it off her shoulder. 

I see no reason to stay in this marriage.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

moto said:


> For the past ten months I've said and done things I'm not proud of, but I have not touch her in a physical way. about few weeks later I pretty much ripped up all the wedding pictures and crush the weeding crush in my vise my garage. Not the best move at the time it's how I felt. *Anger & resentment is my main issue (and still is today)*
> 
> I did set some boundaries in our marriage after lurking on this forum and other sites and they seemed to help a bit, but *I'm still getting a lot of hostility from the wife*. I asked her to have NC with the POSOM but he was out of the picture before the marriage, and her toxic friends that knew about it and helped her cover it all up to stay away from. I also asked my wife that her sister (my SIL) not to come to our house anymore or ask us for any type of help. As she has a lot of issues with her own moral compass, I've told my wife many times that she can talk & go to her house becaus its her sister and I can't ask for NC for her, but I felt at the time (me being filled with rage-liked angry issues) for my SIL not to come to our house. And the girls nightoput has to stop for the time being, since my trust with her is broken. Yes as I look back on the five plus year we've been married since I found out of her so called EA before I knew about the PA, she has been pretty good at keeping herself out of situations where questions can be raised (except for her lying) I'll give her credit and thats why I haven't separated or file for divorce. And to point out that I have not been a great husband since d-day and *I've been battling triggers, mind movies TT, rug sweeping and the most haunting answer she keeps telling, when asking her of what were you thinking at about during the affair, wedding etc. she always gave answers that was either BS in my mind "I don't know or can't remember because it was soo long ago"*
> 
> ...


You can't do it by yourself. Your wife has to help.

Trust has to be rebuilt. When you found out she cheated, it went way down, maybe to zero. She has not done much to build it back up. You are comparing her actions from when she cheated on you to her current actions, and it seems she is acting in a similar fashion - telling you to get over it and getting frustrated with your repeated questions.

Trust is rebuilt over time. It starts when your wife finally tells you the WHOLE truth - this includes WHY. If you don't know why she did it the first time, how will you know she will not do it again?

You know as well as I do that she knows what she was thinking about regarding the other man. I know what she was thinking. You were a better choice than the other man. You were a better provider, a better person, and better marriage material. Other man was someone she was "in love" with, meaning she was infatuated with him in a schoolgirl crush type of way. One of her emails even said that. My guess is that other man ended the affair because she refused to dump you for him, although it is possible that your wife dumped him because she feared he would ruin her chances at marrying you.

Meanwhile, she loved you, but was not "in love" with you. That still seems to be the situation. My guess is that she loves you as she would a dear friend, but she is not "in love" with you.

Getting over infidelity often takes a couple of years, definitely at least a year, and that's if the cheater is helping you by doing what you need to heal. Your wife has not been helping you at all, so you are close to square one.

*Have your wife handwrite a "no contact" letter to the other man. * I don't care if it's been over six years and you don't know where he is, just her willingness to do it will show you something about her mindset and guide you one way or the other with whether to continue trying to reconcile. The no contact letter should be handwritten, on paper, by your wife. Other Man, I am horribly ashamed of my behavior and feel terrible for having risked my marriage to my wonderful husband, who is better than you in every way that is important to me. Do not ever attempt to contact me again in any way, shape, or form; if you do, I will file harassment charges against you. Signed, Wife Name. There are no niceties, no "dear," no "I was thinking about you," no "closure." Then she gives the letter to you to mail to other man via certified mail (or you can just hold onto the letter if you don't want to mail it, but either way, don't tell your wife whether the letter was mailed or not).

*Similar no contact letters to all former friends who knew of the infidelity* and did nothing about it. They should be gone from your life for good.

*Your wife has to get her sister to write you a letter of apology*. The letter must be handwritten by her sister, on paper, and delivered to you by her sister in person. She must sincerely apologize to you to your face. If your wife's sister doesn't want to do this, then she is no longer welcome in your home and your wife will have nothing to do with her. Your wife can see her sister all she wants as long as the sister is a friend of the marriage. If not, it comes down to a choice for your wife between you (her husband) or her sister. Same goes for any other family member that knew and didn't tell you about it.

*Your wife has to agree to a polygraph*. Questions will address whether or not there were other man she cheated with while she was involved with you, including on her girls nights out with her toxic friends and family.

*You of course will have access to all your wife's accounts, passwords*, and communication devices, as she will to yours. All information on the social media sites should be respectful of you and your marriage and family.

*Finally, you need the truth and the WHY *and what she was thinking. "I don't remember" and "what does it matter?" are not acceptable.

After all this is done, you must try to work on your marriage. If your wife is doing everything you need to help you, you should try to resume normal marital relations, including sex and spending time together alone without the kids.

If your wife is not cooperative in helping you heal, you can either live as you are now or do something to change it.

Always remember, you cannot control your wife. You can only control yourself, and what you are willing to accept and not accept. Your wife controls her own actions and you control yours.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> You can't do it by yourself. Your wife has to help.
> 
> Trust has to be rebuilt. When you found out she cheated, it went way down, maybe to zero. She has not done much to build it back up. You are comparing her actions from when she cheated on you to her current actions, and it seems she is acting in a similar fashion - telling you to get over it and getting frustrated with your repeated questions.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Originally Posted by lordmayhem 
All credit for this goes to a poster named Fighting2Survive at the SurvivingInfidelity forum. It's a great guide to see if your WS is truly remorseful or just trying to sweep it under the rug.



INDICATORS OF REMORSE 
* Actions match words. 
* Accepts full responsibility for the affair without blaming the BS, a bad marriage, or other outside factors. 
* Expresses sorrow for hurting the BS and the M. 
* Shows compassion and actively assists the BS with handling triggers. 
* Does not become defensive or shut down when BS brings up affair-related emotions, issues, or questions. 
* Answers questions honestly and completely. 
* Does not avoid the BS or become frustrated that the BS is not “healing fast enough.” 
* Contributes at least 60% of the joint effort at rebuilding the marriage. 
* Actively works to understand why he or she made the choice to have an affair and shares insights with BS. 
* Does not think solely about himself or herself. Considers how actions impact the BS. 


Remorse is so important to R. It's the conerstone that everything else is built on. Without it, the M can not heal. 

Remorse involves far more than just saying "I'm sorry." It's conveyed through consistent actions. The above list is not comprehensive, but it is meant to be an example that the FWS's behavior should be clear sign that he or she understands the pain the A caused and is committed to healing the M. Simply hanging around the house is not remorse. And it is not R.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Originally Posted by chapparal 

Re: Trying to work marriage out, but seems one-sided. Need perspective please. 

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Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Originally Posted by Pit-of-my-stomach 
FWIW... regarding indications of genuine remorse I once put together a short list on the subject of determining if your WS was being genuine and remorseful which some found useful... It's also along the lines of what lordmayhem shared...

____________________________

REMORSE

There is no infallable way to know if what you are seeing is genuine remorse or not.

What I would start with would be your gut... that's where it all begins. No one knows your spouse quite the way that you do. Do you sense genuine remorse? 

As with all people that mislead, lie or decieve there are always subtle non-verbal cues (facial expressions) which can give you some indication whether the person is being genuine...

People who fake remorse tend to show a greater range of emotional expressions and swing from one emotion to another very quickly - if the base emotional responses are grouped into three categories; Good (happy) /Neutral (neutral, surprise). /Bad (sadness, fear, anger, contempt, disgust) a person intentionally decieving you will tend to swing from category to category very quickly. Particularly from good to bad or bad to good (skipping nuetral). The phenomenon is referred to as emotional turbulence - They will also speak with more hesitation.

It might also bear mentioning that the saying about people lying not looking you in the eyes, is actually completely false in the case of WS's. You will find that they go out of the way to look you dead in the eyes while lying to you. 

study

There are also some qualities/behaviors to look for when someone is genuinely remorseful... 

They are signs/actions that someone will commonly exhibit (coping mechinisms) when internally healing from an action or decision that they have made which they feel was wrong... These are obviously not hard cold "musts" for a spouse to qualify as genuinely remorseful... But, I hope this gives you a "roadmap" of some indicators....

1. A remorseful spouse is willing if not eager to confess everything about the behaviors and mistakes they made. They commonly show a genuine desire to "come clean". 

2. A remorseful spouse is openly accountable for their actions and seeks to identify and make changes to insure that this behavior does not reoccur. (They feel genuine pain, therefore they seek to prevent this pain from reoccuring. (normal human response to pain - AVOID IT) (No genuine pain = No reason to seek a solution to avoid repeating that pain).

3. A remorseful spouse will seek to "work", not only on themselves but on general life responsibilities. A remorseful spouse faces the responsibilities of thier day-to-day life and will often show increased motivation to meet those tasks. The work is often approached in a more "humble" way by the remorseful spouse. 

4. A remorseful spouse will not object to limitations (i.e. transperency) set by the faithful spouse as a result their actions and in an effort to promote the healing of the violated trust. 

5. A remorseful spouse faces the pain they have caused. A remorseful spouse will allow you to express the intesity of the feelings and hurt their actions have caused without justifying, minimizing or blame-shifting.

6. A remorseful spouse seeks forgiveness and respects the process of forgiveness often takes time. They will not be impatient or pressure the injured spouse to say "I forgive you" and will never exhibit a "get over it!" attitude. 

Sorry you are all here, but hope this proves useful to you on your journey.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Whoa, I am in the middle battle my cold/flu type PITA bug, so I decided to take a bit time from reading this thread, because it hurts. But it's true.

Thank you for all the support, and to Will_Kane thank you so much for all the info. I wish one her friends was like you!

It's been tough couple of days, but at this time, I'm planning a exit plan. Just case I see no improvements. I was surprise to my wife posting, I just found out she made a that post. I'm rather shock she wrote that, it displays her lack remorse/ empathy ? To me it's just another attack IMHO to me personal. She even got mad at me for posting my story of us. She thought I wasn't serious going to do it! 


As she already notice my 180 ways today, my intend is still R but if she continues her selfish attitude and non-remorseful ways I will leave this summer or sooner. Jobs in this town are mostly all low paying job that can barely afford the 1300+/month to get a basic apt. For myself to take the kids 50/50, so I'm in a tight jam. I'll have to move very far away for a half descent job, its the kids I truly feel sorry for, It's truly a shame this all happened/still happening today.

I asked her to read your comments after she posted and got the normal response from her, she smiled and shaking her head!  it's not looking good for me. She is not serious about this marriage. And if she was,she would be showing it. Instead she is basically rug sweeping my messages and phone calls today.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Your WW can tell herself that a bunch of internet strangers have nothing to teach her. The truth is there are many posters on this board who are very educated and thoughtful. They give their time to try to help people in one of the most painful journeys one can have. It's a measure of her arrogance that she can feel dismissive and self-righteous about your posting here and the responses you get.

You have many, many things to face when it comes to receiving remorse from her:

- She reveled in a pre-wedding drama that put her center stage as the femme fatale who had a clueless groom and another suitor slavering after her. Just imagine the excitement all those family and friends had as they watched the drama unfold, as they watched you play the unwitting dupe to her not-so-tragic heroine. How gratifying that must have been to her to be the focal point of all this drama.

- She had sex untold number of times with the OM that she was stringing along for her own ego-gratification.

- She lied for YEARS.

- She has no real remorse. She had her fun and it's over, so it's no big deal. You need to get over it. If you don't, well, how irritating are you? She'll put on an act for you, but she only has so much patience. Enough, she thinks - stop the p!ssing and moaning. After all, she doesn't care, so why should you? And we all know that it's all a matter of what she cares about.

- And, so what that everyone knew what she was doing. It was SO long ago. What difference does it make now, she insists.

It's all just so tiresome to her. The affair was exciting and fun, but it's over, she says. It's over, moto, so you need to get with the program, her program.

The way she confessed was filled with contempt. It was like she was saying, 'Alright already. How stupid are you that you don't know what really happened? Everybody knew. Why didn't you? Seriously, how blind can you be?'

That was what she was thinking as she dropped the bomb. Not a guilty conscience or remorse, just being fed up with your blindness to what she thought was obvious.

I hope you show her now that you aren't blind or stupid. The 'worthless' advice of the people here can help you do that.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Quotes for WILL_KANE 



> Have your wife handwrite a "no contact" letter to the other man.


She has not written a ltter yet, but I know were the POSOM lives. I have saved his info just case I snapped and decided that jail was alternative. the last time I saw the POSOM, he took his kid and ran across the street from us (when I didn't know what happened)



> Similar no contact letters to all former friends who knew of the infidelity


Well I think she wont do it, because of a few reasons. 


She will get a hand cramp from written all those letters.
she still talks to most of them on weekly basis
most of them have been life long friends
Most of them have either wanted or have cheated in thepast and in my opinion they think its normal



> Your wife has to get her sister to write you a letter of apology.


When she found out that I knew, my wife told me that is my SIL was going to yell at me and that I should get over it, (it runs the family) and besides she is a very toxic sister and she have only shown her true colours after I found out. 



> Your wife has to agree to a polygraph


Since I joined this forum over the winter, I had asked her to take a poly, because I simple can't believe anything she says. Well we've some of our biggest fights has been over this question, and even told me many times that she won't and doesn't believe, only lately has she said that she would under protest. But at this point there over $500 in our area and right now, I rather use that for food for the kids. 




> You of course will have access to all your wife's accounts, passwords,


I have most of them, she has so many its hard to keep track, after exposing her emails to her years ago, she has smarten up and its not hard to create another and she knows that, and mainly hides all of her emailings with friends and family to work computer, which I have no access to, nor to I want to involve her work place. At times she tells her friends that I'm controlling and she has told me many times that I invade her privacy over and over, Again making me feel bad! So I have pretty much giving up and getting access accounts because because she hides everything on her work computer where I would have to be breaking laws to gain info from. 



> inally, you need the truth and the WHY


I get the same old cheater song, " I don't know and I don't remember, so It never really mattered, GET OVER IT!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Good Lord moto.
You deserve way better than this.
Pit-of-my-stomach, alte dame... everyone can see through her.
You will never heal from this with this woman. Ever.
Plan you exit, ask a mod to move this thread to the private section so you can keep the support without giving her any head up. You own her nothing, nothing.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Moto,

I know it sucks to face the reality of this situation, but it will not benefit you at all to ignore the fact that your wife is completely unrepentant and continues to associate with people who looked on approvingly while you were betrayed.

And her refusal to discuss the past is most likely because she doesn't want you digging under that rock. Who knows what other worms are buried under it? (such as Vegas boy) 

This is why she fights tooth and nail to avoid the poly.

Next time she tells you to 'get over it', you may just have to face the music and inform her maybe its time you got over her...permanently.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

> if you cannot be positive and helpful, you shouldn't post.


Helpful to who? YOU or him?Should we convince him to stay after you f#$ked around and had your fun while lying to his face for years????

Or should we convince him to move in a positive direction and find somebody who can be loyal( keep there legs closed), trusting, show RESPECT and LOVE to their spouse.

Everyone here has an opinion but ultimately he will choose what he thinks is best for himself.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Moto your STBXW is going to end up a lonely and angry old woman if she does not change her ways. It really is sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Destroyedlife you may think you are smarter than the majority of us here. But not only have we seen what infidelity has done to us and other betrayed spouses....we have also seem the effects it has on the perpetrators. I don't know what happened in your past to turn you into the person you are, but if you think you can free-wheel your way through life, exploiting those who love you for your own selfish wants, you are headed for a fall...a very bad one. 

Keep screwing over the people in your life who love you and you will end up as that crazy old lady at the end of the street, who has burned every bridge in her life and has lost the respect and love of those closest to her. I hope you like cats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

They say judge a person by the company they keep.

Your wife's lowlife low class friends say it say a lot about her don't they.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I know you're in a bad place right now but you should dna the kids if nothing else for future medical reasons.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

tom67 said:


> I know you're in a bad place right now but you should dna the kids if nothing else for future medical reasons.


I understand where your coming from, and if I posted pictures of them you'll see it, it would be pretty hard to disagree. In this case, they all look like my side of the family, there no doubt 100% in my mind they are my kids. All three of them look me and they have a dad that loves them.


Tonight was an interesting night, a few heated moments and a lot emotions being thrown around. It's all very confusing and very hard to deal with esp. with this cold I'm fighting. She says she doesn't understand & I hope she posts over in reconciliation forums for help, but I don't think or know that she will. 

I have an exit plan ready, but that's a last resort, I just wish over the past ten months that she would have learn to improve herself about understanding what it's been like for me. I know she's been scared of me, she felt attacked by me, I know I have said some really bad comments about her to her, but they were not lies, and she has taken them as attacks and verbal abuse. Its just me being frustrated to the point of begging her to learn about her lack remorse and care for me during this time. I just realized this a few weeks ago and completely stopped going on the offensive with my wife about this matter. 



It's very frustrating times.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

moto said:


> I understand where your coming from, and if I posted pictures of them you'll see it, it would be pretty hard to disagree. All three of them look me and


 No, it wouldn't be hard to disagree. Stories abound of guys raising kids and later finding out one or more are not his biological children. Happened to my FIL. My BIL looks enough like him that I never would have suspected. You could post pictures all day and it wouldn't be 100% without DNA.


> they have a dad that loves them.


 That's awesome. That doesn't have to change if one of them is not your biological child. There are many happy Step and Adoptive parents that prove DNA doesn't make you a better father. It is your actions, as a parents, that determines how good you are at parenting.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Moto its time for you to move on with your life, She is not going to help you or going to tell you the truth.

Plan your life in a way so that you can get out of this soon and have 50/50 custody of your children.

Stop looking at her for any help or truth she is not going to. Its time for you to search for a job without any delay.

When she realise that you are ready to move out and not in need of any help from her (financially or emotionally) she may realise what she is going to loose and wake up from this sh1t pile she is sitting but I am afraid then you may have been gone too far away from her.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Ok, advice for R.
> 
> 1. You take a polygraph and come fully clean about your affairs, including Vegas guy.
> 
> ...


Shaggy nailed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

moto said:


> Well I think she wont do it, because of a few reasons.
> 
> 
> She will get a hand cramp from written all those letters.
> ...


There is just no way your WW will ever change her deceiving ways if she keeps association with filth like that. Remember, you can pretty accurately judge them by the company they keep. For your R to have even the slightest chance of being successful she needs to cut all contacts with them. If to her you are not even worthy of doing that, then there is no reason for you staying married.

And as others have suggested, do a paternity test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

destroyedlife said:


> so moto that i should post my feelings about this thread...
> 
> i do feel remorse and i am sorry and he has full transparency and i know it that 100% of cheating is my fault.
> 
> ...


I would seriously like to know something. 

How exactly are you showing him that you are sincerely remorseful? Based on what your H told us, you are just telling him to "get over it". Not very promising. 

Also, cutting contacts with your co-conspirators that you call friends should really be a no-brainer on your part. Why haven't you done that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

moto
The paternity tests are a must regardless of who the children resemble. Who's to say she hasn't hit one or more of your relatives?
I feel for you about finding out that "everybody" or nearly so, knew about the affair (s?) and nobody cared enough to clue you into events.
Been there, and it made me realize that I really didn't have a "life" any more so than a plow horse used to occasionally prepare a field for crops.
It really isn't a requirement for a spouse to love their mate. But do you really want to live the rest of your life just going through the motions with her?
You can do the same thing with a whole slew of women without being married.
Works for me.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

moto said:


> Quotes for WILL_KANE
> 
> 
> She has not written a ltter yet, but I know were the POSOM lives. I have saved his info just case I snapped and decided that jail was alternative. the last time I saw the POSOM, he took his kid and ran across the street from us (when I didn't know what happened)
> ...


Wow, that's a heck of a story. Still digesting it, but I was wondering moto, where are you from? US/UK?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm betting your wife views all suggestion of dumping her toxic friends as sone kind of revenge for her cheating on you.

The thing is its not about revenge, it's about choosing your marriage and family and removing from your life those people who's views and influence are toxic to it,

These friends themselves have cheated, so the advice she's going to be getting over and over from them is to in surrender to you, to not let you control her, to not give up secrecy or freedom -and the will say all of this due to projection of their own desires to be able to continue their own affairs. These are women who are selfish and have not themselves fully committed faithfully to their own partners. So they are never ever going to support her if she chooses to commit 100% to you and actually work on the marriage.

Instead their advice to her will be things like -

- hold your ground
- don't give in
- don't compromise at all because he will just want more and more
- don't tell him the full truth, that's private between you and XXX
- your past is none of his business (of course ignoring it was with her time with him)
- don't give up your privacy ever!
- he needs to accept that you need to have fun 
- you deserve to be happy, if e can't deliver, you have to do what you need to do (aka cheat and lie)

I bet not one of these toxic friends has advised her that she better change her game and commit fully to the marriage and to help her husband gel from her deep betrayal.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

moto said:


> I understand where your coming from, and if I posted pictures of them you'll see it, it would be pretty hard to disagree. In this case, they all look like my side of the family, there no doubt 100% in my mind they are my kids. All three of them look me and they have a dad that loves them.


Unfortunately you cannot go on the "looks". Case in point, my BIL's oldest daughter had two kids from a sperm donor, as her husband was sterile. The family has always remarked how much they "looked" like their Dad, but this was a random donor. And oddly enough, the older they have gotten, the more they seem to look more like him.

Your WW's actions proved she cannot be trusted. That post of her's just proves it once again.


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

Moto, sory that this has gotten to this point.

I want to scratch my head about your wife's confession, especially since she wasn't forced. Her "voluntarily" giving this up tells me she did it for her benefit... and not yours. Despite her showing no remorse, she was obviously guilty abou what she was doing, thus her confession was to releave the burden off of her, despite her knowing what this info would do to you.

If she could of only humbled herself, been sorry for actions, i could of sided with you in R. But she isn't sorry, instead she was like, "Get over it..."... who says that??? 

We know she is the mother of your kids and all, and part of you still loves her, but she did the ultimate betrayel... over and over and over again. Whoever you think she once was... she isn't. You are trying... she is not, atleast not to the extent you are. Its backwards, she should be the one who should be bending over backwards to win you back, but she is not, and that is all you need to know.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Moto I suggest you stop posting on this thread or have it moved to the private members section. If you want advice you can send private messages to some of the members. How did your cheating wife find out about this forum btw?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Destroyed. Im hopefully going to remember to to repost a part of another betrayed husbands post on just whar cheating does to a man. His piece was a masterpiece. Not at my regular comp atm.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

To everyone that has chipped in and offered advice about leaving. I have an exit plan already, I can pack up and leave with no notice now, and I plan on using this exit plan, if she doesn't start to show remorse/improve to save this marriage. I know some of you may find this hard, I'm just trying figure out how to move ahead, yes she needs to start being less selfish and maybe my wife will somehow understand. For the first time last night, she was actually begging me to stay, and was crying. So maybe there is hope ? 

Going to reply to everyone that I can.

Hookares:


> Who's to say she hasn't hit one or more of your relatives?


 considering they all women and my twin brother has passed away 10 years before I met my wife, Its pretty safe to say sleeping within the family is nil. 

Rob774:


> I want to scratch my head about your wife's confession, especially since she wasn't forced. Her "voluntarily" giving this up tells me she did it for her benefit... and not yours. Despite her showing no remorse, she was obviously guilty abou what she was doing, thus her confession was to releave the burden off of her, despite her knowing what this info would do to you.
> 
> If she could of only humbled herself, been sorry for actions, i could of sided with you in R. But she isn't sorry, instead she was like, "Get over it..."... who says that???


This is a good question, that I never thought of and I know she is reading this forum lately so I hope she answers this. Because I am not wondering why did she even tell me at all? 

After last night, she offered for the first time IMO regret only because I had a exit plan! but I couldn't help but feel bad for her, because I just never expected it from her.

Shaggy:


> I'm betting your wife views all suggestion of dumping her toxic friends as some kind of revenge for her cheating on you.


Actual most of her toxics friends stopped calling the house when I found out, I didn't have to say anything, they pretty much halted on there own at the house. I think they still talk at her work (but I'm not really sure) But I do know that it's just not as often anymore. So far none of her friends have ever said sorry to me, and have said that I'm controlling and they all said they are my wife side pretty much and to me, thats just approving of her decision to have the affair. I think they never cared for me or our relationship at the time before marriage. 

The way I see it, it's because most of them are divorced from failed marriages and that its just another way to get the "old girl gang" back like it was in college when they were single ?? 

Another prime example of toxic family, this came from her Aunt / my Aunt in-law. She didn't know about the affair until a few months ago. And last week she told at my girls birthday party that it will be my fault for the marriage failing if I leave (WTF) 

brokenshadow: Canadian


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

moto said:


> To everyone that has chipped in and offered advice about leaving. I have an exit plan already, I can pack up and leave with no notice now, and I plan on using this exit plan, if she doesn't start to show remorse/improve to save this marriage. I know some of you may find this hard, I'm just trying figure out how to move ahead, yes she needs to start being less selfish and maybe my wife will somehow understand. For the first time last night, she was actually begging me to stay, and was crying. So maybe there is hope ?


Good luck moto.

Just remember that remorse can't be forced out of someone's throat. 

BTW how did she find the forum? Please don't tell me you invited her to post here.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

She found this forum long before I was posted my story, like I said, I didn't know she posted until after she got home from work and told me. 

I just wish it would get easier for me when i posted my issues, but it seem most people think D is the only way to be happy. I can understand why people think that, but I'm trying real hard to forgive her for the years of lying and the affair. And right now I'm trying to cope with my feelings etc. and hope that my wife will finally come to her senses with the damage before I have to leave.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

moto said:


> She found this forum long before I was posted my story, like I said, I didn't know she posted until after she got home from work and told me.
> 
> I just wish it would get easier for me when i posted my issues, but it seem most people think D is the only way to be happy. .


Even the strongly leaning R people, we have quite a few, are going to tell you her current attitude isn't going to work for reconciliation. Heck, she has been telling you for TWO YEARS to get over it. That's what we call stubborn and entrenched.

She needs a ton of work and you need help as well. You let this linger too long and she has no real consequences.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

moto said:


> She found this forum long before I was posted my story, like I said, I didn't know she posted until after she got home from work and told me.


IN that case she came her just for entertaining because it's obvious she didn't learn a thing.
What proves you can't make someone feel remorse (nor any other emotion). They are or the aren't. It's not she's dense, she's just unremorseful.
Her post didn't look like coming from someone who has been lurking TAM or any other relationship website.


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

Probably doing some research on how to better hide her cheating by reading about all the techniques used to catch cheaters etc!!!


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

The weeping and crying thing was a ploy. There are some women Moto who can turn the waterworks on and off at will. My second wife was that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Acabado said:


> IN that case she came her just for entertaining because it's obvious she didn't learn a thing.
> What proves you can't make someone feel remorse (nor any other emotion). They are or the aren't. It's not she's dense, she's just unremorseful.
> Her post didn't look like coming from someone who has been lurking TAM or any other relationship website.


Months before I started this thread, I gave her a few links to stories from other threads here on TAM to show her as a example in the hopes that she may understand my pain. 

So far it hasn't worked. And even today was 50/50 (good/bad) with her, but I haven't engaged her at all, I need to sleep & beat this bloody cold. 

And yet it's past midnight just doing some work. 

LostViking:


> The weeping and crying thing was a ploy. There are some women Moto who can turn the waterworks on and off at will. My second wife was that way.


Yeah I can understand that, a lot of people are like that, again, I don't know. but I have drawn a line in the sand, and I'm waiting to see


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

I think your wife is scared. Really scared. What I sensed in her post was a lot of hollow bravado. Her uncertainty was palpable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

LostViking said:


> Divorce her.
> 
> Borrow the money....live in a box under a bridge. Anything would be better than sacrificing your soul and dignity to this vampire.


Well said!


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Well a couple of days ago my wife and I was reading the aftercare's website (great site all couples that are trying to heal/recover) and she's just came clean. And I was just freaking WoW! I was not prepared for how it started or how it happened. Lets say I got most of the details, it turns out she had an EA for while (still don't know how long before it turned into a PA but at least two months) then she went to the best bridesmaidshouse for a party while i was working, knowing the the OM was going to be there. They were drinking, smoking drugs ( which shocked me, because we don't do drugs) with the OM, he basislly had her melting in his hands and he just took control, kissed her and didn't say no and started from there.......... I have no idea about protection if it was used, she claim yes she did, but she never carries any protection! 

And now I'm stuck back to square one feeling like a bag of f**king crap. I asked why it happened, but I guess she wanted him then because he was the bigger man I'm guessing (she told me), that I was always gone working to pay for her wedding! And now I'm left wondering if or when she going to do it again! That male primer book pretty much sumed up what happen and how it happened in just the first chapter, and pretty much says it will happen again if the right guy comes along. I'm trying really hard, but I'm struggling with the hurt really bad. 

I married her back not knowing any of this, some of her friends that were there that night, aparentally giving her crap the morning after ( because they heard her from the bed room I guessing or he was bragging I don't know) but not a single dam one of them told me before, during or after the wedding! 

Welcome to my little hell dream. Mind movies anyone ? ( just got off topic) 


And now my wife is now trying really hard to fix things and I think she's frustrated that she doesn't know how to fix it. As for her family and friends, a few of them are pretty much afraid of talking with me, they want to say their sorry, but I guess it's because i think so low of them and rightful so. They never watched over either. 

My plan: 

I just wish it never happened in the first place, so in a few weeks I taking some time away and I'm going help a friend (my best man from the wedding) and drive 1700kms to Halifax,NS to help him recover his broken down RV camper, plus it will give me the time to reflect about my wife and I what to do next. I think people call this limbo, I want to stay and work things out but being thrown back into the hurt with the full truth this time, just f**king sucks. I've started to read a few ebooks and waiting for one to be shippied. But even after reading thoses books so far, it has made me feel more angry/pain then ever before. I don't if this is limbo, but I have a renewed angry towards the other man now more than ever, and if I don't go away, I'll do something stupid.

My wife just keeps crying everytime we talk about this matter, and this morning I had to lie to her saying im okay, just so she can go to work and function. For the record, since she came clean about everything, I have not been abusive in any way. Just trying not show any pain but it's too much at times. 


Thank you for all help and wisdom that some you have endure to help me to towards some sort of direction. Only time will tell which way we will go. Hopeful I figure it soon but she is remorseful now! It only took 10 month and this thread to start this painful process.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Moto have her read this. I think you said she is already here so you wont have to print it.

I wrote this
Do you realize just what it does to a man to know what knowing your wife had ANOTHER MAN INSIDE HER does to him? We men are primitive territorial animals. Your vagina is yours meaning ownership, but for most men, once we agree to exclusivity you have signed an EXCLUSIVE lease and upon marriage that lease is lifetime. You let another man violate his territory.

You shred his heart. Yes men do love.
You shred his ego. He wonders why he wasnt good enough
You shred his trust. Most men want at least one part of their lives to be "safe" Safe is not exact but it is the best I can do ATM. Men are raised to be providers. This means we go out and fight the world to provide for our families. We want one damn place in our lives we dont have to worry about. YOU attacked him FROM INSIDE HIS OWN EMOTIONAL DEFENSES! When a man loves a woman he lets her inside those same defenses that he uses to keep the world from destroying him. 

Then to top it off, for most men, sometimes the time being random. They have a good day going and all of a sudden they get the mental image of another man inseminating his woman. The day is now ruined!

My wife ONLY had an EA with an ex and it only got to the spooning part in emails. It FVCKING KILLS me that I don't trust her fully with that 100% implicit trust. I will NEVER have it again. UGH! I will probably eventually get to 90% trust but it will NEVER be 100%. I HATE HATE HATE that! IF your husband ever gets to 80% he is the strongest man on earth.

My pain. Is a TINY fraction of what your husband feels since you gave yourself over fully.

Doubletrouble's response to both me and the OP. IMHO a masterpiece.

>I can tell you a few things about that from a male BS standpoint. 

Echoing what wl just said, you cannot say you're sorry often enough. Keep saying it. AND follow up with real change, real actions. 

The mind movies of her being with another man are something that runs through my head EVERY DAY. Every day when I see the same model car, hear his name randomly on the radio or during my business day, and other triggers I won't go into for various reasons... they all put my mind back in that bed, with her naked and wet, him naked and hard, taking what was supposed to be mine. She gave it willingly, thoroughly, completely, and then wrote to him what it was like to be in such a realtionship where she loved him so much. 

At that point with her I had NOTHING of what I thought I did. I was oblivious at the time, and she never told me. I had to find out. They did it in OUR bed, and since I was traveling at the time, I arrived the next day. His sperm wasn't even dead inside her before she accepted mine as well. That bites, in ways I can't even describe. It's the biggest betrayal, the biggest hit on my manhood and sexuality, as a provider and ALL the roles I take on as head of the family. That guy came in and stole it all... no, she gave it all to him in those moments. 

And it's not just the moments of sex, which are bad enough. To know what was being said between the two of them, and knowing he was married anyway, so just grabbing a free piece of ass at MY expense -- it's utter destruction of my heart. 

I could write on and on, because it goes on and on, but maybe that can give you a flavor of what you've done to your husband in those moments of gonad-driven stupidity and utter irresponsibility. You should be ashamed, you should be contrite, you should apologize over and over, and you must do all the heavy lifting because it was your CHOICE to spread 'em for some strange. 

And I tell her: I hope it was worth it.<


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Moto you got a few things going on so I would like to take it apart to get the full picture.

What happened.

1. Can you time line this with your first post as a reference? This would give us a better idea of what happened.

2. Was it a one time thing? Multiple times? Sexting?


Where is she at?

1. What is she willing to do to make it better?

2. Words are great but actions are what count so what is she willing to do.


Steps to take

1. NC to all the friends that did not tell you they have disrespected your marriage and you she should be willing to move on.

2. Her family if they knew need to personally apologize to you for their actions and you should feel free to NEVER deal with them again or have them in your home.

3. She should be willing to WRITE down a timeline for you with all the detail you require. This is for you to reference when you have questions or when you decide and have the money for a poly.

4. I would advise that you sign up for counseling with Affaircare it cost I think 30 dollars and you could get some great insights from this. Personally if I was in your spot I would do it. But be prepared she calls it like she sees it so she will call YOU on your stuff as well. All of this is about getting a BETTER marriage.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

There are two things I wish were filtered on this website.
"She's just a friend" and "I did all of this, on purpose, but the physical act was out of my control."


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Moto,

This sounds so painful. My advice would be to file.

Your tone makes me think this is beyond your capability to get past. Not an insult. I had to do this too.

Their tears will dry once you leave. They turn from being so sorry to mean and selfish while you process the D.

Try some more on the counselling if it seems to be working. It really sounds like your hurt is too deep for the long haul.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Weightlifter:


> Moto have her read this. I think you said she is already here so you wont have to print it.


 Yes she is on this forum, but has not been back in this thread since, but she is reading other sections of this forum, just lurking and reading & and I'm guessing shortly she will read your post. And I just want say thank you for sharing that. Its hard for me to read but it shows what people like me and many other are going through. 


To me, I'd rather be going back and risking my ass doing what I loved, building motorcycles and running them at 220+mphs or heading to the Isle of Man, because that is what I love. But coming & staying here at home to this is really is painful. I had a really bad incident many years ago where I couldn't move or walk for a month and I rather do that again then deal with this pain! only because I know it will get better. (this is just how I'm feeling)


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

CEL:


> What happened.





> Can you time line this with your first post as a reference?


Timeline is pretty much what I have from the call logs when this EA started. The date of the ONS/ or the PA length is truly unknown to me. But I figured it was sometime between First week of June and first week of August, really I don't know those details because I was only home for four days in June and three days in July. so really it could happen at anytime when I was wasn't there. Besides she has told she can't remember what week or month it was. 



> Was it a one time thing? Multiple times? Sexting?


She claims to ONS only and continued with communicating with him afterwards so called ONS. But I really don't know, with the amount of phone calls (1-3 hours nightly) the emails bragging to her friends/sister about being in love/ and little girl crushes. To the email saying how much she hates having sex with me! plus the comments from POSOM asking her not to marry me. (she told me he said this) I just can't believe her that was just a ONS. At the time, I never looked at her text messages, I never thought of it because I found the emails,facebook messages and call logs and thought that was enough proof. 



> Where is she at?


After coming clean about most of the details about the party with the POSOM, she has been trying really hard, so hard I think I'm starting to feel guilty at times, she is bending over backwards for me in many ways since Sunday. Sometimes I can handle it, and other times I want no part of it, because waking up in the middle of the night with a bad dream starting my wife and POSOM sets the mood for me for the rest of the day. 



> Steps to take


Step 1. it's going to be hard, because after the wedding day, I found out that she has told most of her friends that didn't know that she an the affair but regretted it. So this would alienate her from pretty much everyone in her world and definitely make me like a controlling SOB. Which I am not. (well just with money)

Step 2. well then knew about it before and I don't expect one because I know my SIL wants to apologize, but she told my wife that If I yell at her then she will start fighting with me. To me this is non-option I really don't care about her after what is had done & the lack of morals she has for anyone but herself. And the rest of her mom's family is broken, they pretty stop talking to us after our twins were born and have not set a single word to each other in over 8 years! Her dad's side the family (my wife came from a broke home) had no clue about the affair and to this day my wife and I haven't told him because he is dealing with his own personal demons that is affecting him on so many levels.

Step 3. Because she claims she can't remember most of the timeline, I don't think this would be useful, but she did try to get give me a timeline back in the winter but was full of TT and lies about actual events. What she told me on Sunday was the most of the who,how and where etc.. but no when did it happen. 

Step 4. Yes I know I need to see an IC/MC. I tried once and look how that turned out! but I did find a MC in my area think will help us out. But all the MC's in my area request first that I go see an IC first before we see a MC? is this normal ? 


thank you for the tips


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you thought about a polygraph?

Myself, I'd be gone. She didn't accidentally have sex just before the wedding, she deliberately gave herself to him, just before your wedding.

That's not just an affair, that is her choosing to humiliate you ,me hike telling you to your face that she loved you. Sorry, but I see no evidence of love. What I see is her giving herself willingly to the OM for him to use for his pleasure and her giving you a huge bill to pay for her wedding party and junk.

It's one thing to cheat while dating, but at her shower to give herself to him, well friend that's a forever show stopper to me.

You got the bills, he got the bride.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

> Lovemytruck: Moto,
> 
> This sounds so painful. My advice would be to file.
> 
> ...


It been really hard dealing with the pain and hurt, esp. this week, sleep is not happening for me. 

I'm just so confused about what to do at times, but filing for D, is the last resort, that's if I can't make it through this pain. I'm trying so hard dealing with affair, the years of lying and the amount of people the knew or involved with it. I'm trying to be good husband, a father to my kids, and in general a better person, and to some degree I have been. 

I gave up everything that I loved, and I moved to her city to be with her. When we first met she was on a financial cliff with payments and I helped out of the hole and debt free with 6 months, I showed her my life, my upbringing and how I grew up with great parents that are still married after 45 years. And when she felt the time was right to get married, I told her that this is what I needed to do to come up with the funds to give her the wedding that she wanted, including a horse and carriage princess wedding! And I told her I won't be around much until the wedding day, maybe a few days a month tops. and she about the work and the amount of time of her being alone. The work was very long hours/18 hour days mostly and traveling was a must. I racked up over 50 hours of flying each month so its been pretty hard for me to work, carry a family life and be a soon to be husband at the time.

tough times. thanks for sharing


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

moto said:


> Weightlifter:
> Yes she is on this forum, but has not been back in this thread since, but she is reading other sections of this forum, just lurking and reading & and I'm guessing shortly she will read your post. And I just want say thank you for sharing that. Its hard for me to read but it shows what people like me and many other are going through.
> 
> 
> To me, I'd rather be going back and risking my ass doing what I loved, building motorcycles and running them at 220+mphs or heading to the Isle of Man, because that is what I love. But coming & staying here at home to this is really is painful. I had a really bad incident many years ago where I couldn't move or walk for a month and I rather do that again then deal with this pain! only because I know it will get better. (this is just how I'm feeling)


Thank doubletrouble. His was a masterpiece. I only have trust issues and anger/resentment because of it being an EA and the lies she told me. Compared to you...


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Have you thought about a polygraph?
> 
> Myself, I'd be gone. She didn't accidentally have sex just before the wedding, she deliberately gave herself to him, just before your wedding.
> 
> ...



I have asked about a poly many times in the past six months and if we had the cash ($600) I would invest in a poly. 



> Sorry, but I see no evidence of love.


 this is where I can't get my head around, since D-day I look back and say , all freaking lies esp. on the wedding day, and it makes so hard to review the past of years now knowing all this that she actually loved me, but instead looks like she just loved him and herself. Its really driving me crazy. 

I did get the bills and the leftovers and POSOM got my bride.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Thank doubletrouble. His was a masterpiece. I only have trust issues and anger/resentment because of it being an EA and the lies she told me. Compared to you...


I've read some of doubletrouble posts and I can relate a lot. 

When I only knew of the EA only, I was at a point of total forgiveness for her EA and it took a few years to get at that point, where I would talk about it and have no issues at all, I was happy it was only an EA and I was not mad at my wife anymore. 

I guess that kicked me on my ass when I guess the second D-day hit.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

I don't see any love here either. There is nothing special about the way your wife cheated on you Moto. She wants you for security while she bangs other men on the side. Very typical. 

You could spend money on a poly. Sure. But why? You know she cheated before your wedding....blatantly. This right there is full proof there was never anything more than a sense of sisterly love towards you. She loves you....like a friend, a brother....but not as a lover, and she never will. 

That money for the poly would be better spent on a retainer for a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoulStorm (Jul 17, 2012)

She has no respect for you and is only now trying to get in your good graces because she feels she's about to lose her meal ticket.
She will deny this of course, but her actions speak far louder than her words.
How insulting and cuckolding to have you pay for the wedding with all your long hours and at her bridal shower she gives herself to another man.

You are a better man than me..I would be gone. No love there..just taking advantage of someone willing to support her.
Lying for years and showing no remorse until you are about out the door.
This has always been about her.
Telling other people she hates to have sex with you.
Talking bad about you behind your back
Treating you like a doormat
No love there..not at all.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

moto said:


> I did get the bills and the leftovers and POSOM got my bride.


Honestly that sounds like one that you will never get past.

Her circle sounds awful.

Remind me why you choose to R.

Bro, so sorry you are in this mess. There are better days ahead, but the dagger needs to be pulled out of your back.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Also, just a side piece of advice Moto.

talk to a lawyer. I don't know Canadian law, but in the state where I live in the US, with you being a stay at home parent (mom and dad is irrelevant)

You'd get primary custody
You'd get the house with her retaining ownership interest if you can't buy her out
She'd have to pay you child support
and if you marriage went past 7 years, She'd be paying you alimony.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Hey Moto okay so thanks for answering the questions now let me answer some of your.

1. For MC yes some like IC first as the goal of MC is to really open communication between the spouses and try to get it all on the table. This is usually a good thing as it gives you a neutral party.

2. So everyone knew but you huh. Wow so sorry I would still go NC with everyone not one of the is a friend if your marriage and they all deceived you. How does she justify having friends that don't even respect you enough to tell you. I know you would feel controlling but she needs to understand that this is about making a NEW marriage. She needs to call them tell them the truth that by telling them she dragged them into this and because of the sulus disrespect they showed the marriage she can't have anything to do with her.

3. Go to Affaircare site and start counseling with HER. You got nothing to lose but 30 dollars and it is what I would do. I think having her help you guys would be a great step.

4. This is kind of big she needs to come clean. She knows the stuff that happened and it looks like there is more so tell her that no matter what you will be getting a poly and to do a timeline on what she DOES remember. Any TT and you are leaving. Tell her to read the reconciliation post in the damage if TT.

5. How soon before you married did she screw him? What does she have to say about the hurtful texts and emails? Why did she marry you if she felt that way?


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Her circle sounds awful. Most of them are very selfish and divorced/single mothers
> 
> Remind me why you choose to R. Because I love her with my heart (yes I know the cheating & lying hurts)
> 
> Bro, so sorry you are in this mess. There are better days ahead, but the dagger needs to be pulled out of your back. I'm trying to fix it one way or another, but I was raised to be a family man, *If * we can fix it then I'm hoping for the best possible outcome


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Also, just a side piece of advice Moto.
> 
> talk to a lawyer. I don't know Canadian law, but in the state where I live in the US, with you being a stay at home parent (mom and dad is irrelevant)
> 
> ...


In Canada I have found a lot of resources to fast track my divorce in under 30 days, and that's if you wished to let me go without a fight, or then I can chose a few options to get a D, if everything fails apart within a few months.

As being a SAHD, its still sucks for fathers in Canada, she could be a the worst parent in the world and the kids could testify in court how bad everything is, but the Judge will still give primary care to the mother. But my wife is not a bad mother, shes actually a really great mom.

Fathers pretty much have no rights in Canada.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Originally Posted by Lovemytruck 

Her circle sounds awful. Most of them are very selfish and divorced/single mothers

Here is where her mindset has evolved. 

Remind me why you choose to R. Because I love her with my heart (yes I know the cheating & lying hurts) 

But she only loves you maybe a quarter as much 

Bro, so sorry you are in this mess. There are better days ahead, but the dagger needs to be pulled out of your back. I'm trying to fix it one way or another, but I was raised to be a family man, If we can fix it then I'm hoping for the best possible outcome

Why should you fix something you did not break? She needs to be the one fixing this.


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## moto (Jan 24, 2013)

> 1. For MC yes some like IC first as the goal of MC is to really open communication between the spouses and try to get it all on the table. This is usually a good thing as it gives you a neutral party.


As my works increases I'll be able to get IC, then we will be able to get into a MC but for now, I need to get working again, its hard but now that school just ended for the kids today, I'll be balancing my time even more. to head to IC when I can.




> 2. So everyone knew but you huh. Wow so sorry I would still go NC with everyone not one of the is a friend if your marriage and they all deceived you. How does she justify having friends that don't even respect you enough to tell you. I know you would feel controlling but she needs to understand that this is about making a NEW marriage. She needs to call them tell them the truth that by telling them she dragged them into this and because of the sulus disrespect they showed the marriage she can't have anything to do with her.


I think I'll get my wife to post the answer to that. Because at times in the past she claims that I was acting controlling and I felt like I was "the bad guy at times for being so demanding"



> 3. Go to Affaircare site and start counseling with HER. You got nothing to lose but 30 dollars and it is what I would do. I think having her help you guys would be a great step.


I'm thinking about it, I'm going to see whats involved, because a local IC in my area I have been in touch with seems to very good. I have been thinking about going into see him, I just need to get the next two week of work/SAHD duties I need to get done first then I'm off to IC again. 



> 4. This is kind of big she needs to come clean. She knows the stuff that happened and it looks like there is more so tell her that no matter what you will be getting a poly and to do a timeline on what she DOES remember. Any TT and you are leaving. Tell her to read the reconciliation post in the damage if TT.


Maybe my wife will tell me, but so far she claims she doesn't know when just a large time frame. But I agree with you, I think she does know and it not willing to say it, there has been too much lying going to believe that she doesn't remember. 



> 5. How soon before you married did she screw him? What does she have to say about the hurtful texts and emails? Why did she marry you if she felt that way?




Could be as early as 1 week before I really don't know
but I figured it was in mid to last week july
call logs showed contact in May(ish) to August but not much in August
 Email from my SIL in June 11th '07 before my kids party asked if my wife to be was going to invite the POSOM (with a wink icon)
 End of June bragging some more in an email about how she hated having sex with me and basically is in love/strong feelings with the other POSOM to a friend 
 POSOM told my wife to be in July 7th-ish (hear-say from another email bragging to her friend) "i should leave and he (POSOM) wanted to tell me before i got married"
we got married in September 8th 2007. 
 December 14th '07 found the emails and found the call logs and was told it was just a harmless EA by everyone of her friends and SIL
 August 12th '12 came clean of the full PA but TT kept on.




> Why did she marry you if she felt that way?


I hope she'll answer it right here in this thread, but I doubt it, because I'm still thinking about this the why part, over and over! 

that is what I know of the timeline, it's not much but its all I have to go on.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Originally Posted by Lovemytruck
> 
> Her circle sounds awful. Most of them are very selfish and divorced/single mothers
> 
> ...


This is a great post.

Moto. If you want to R, but you want a REAL R. 

Probably the NUMBER 1 rule for a BS is to love themselves more than they love their WS.

All too often, part of the problem of infidelity occurs because one spouse shows the other spouse more love than they show themselves. Like you did throughout your marriage. If you loved yourself more than you love her, would you have ever accepted all of the gaslighting etc?

It's time you put yourself NUMBER 1. If she is GOOD enough for you...so be it. You are the better spouse in this marriage. YOU are the commodity that SHE should have to earn. She's still treating herself as the commodity, yes, she's showing some remorse and regret and all of that, but her ego will still get in the way long term.

She showed it in her one response, and her limited response to this thread.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> This is a great post.
> 
> Moto. If you want to R, but you want a REAL R.
> 
> ...


Thanks for making my questions look good!

Moto,

I am proud of your honesty in answering these questions. YOU are a GOOD MAN. I was raised to be a family man too. My lying skills are horrible. My first reaction to bad behavior is to try to understand the reasons for it. I USED to think most people lived by the Golden Rule.

It is ok to remove yourself from a bad marriage/adultery/abuse. Religion teaches us to forgive. It also allows us the option to get out when it is too ugly to endure. Forgiving her does NOT equal staying married to her. I can forgive my exWW, but it was evident that I could not stay married to her. It would not be fair to HER, ME, or my SONS. My option was to D and do my best to be a great Dad, step-dad, and as a new husband to a wife worth my time.

I dislike throwing out the religion card. My exWW and I were very religious for about 20 years of a 23 year marriage. After a PA, EA, and a D my exWW is now religious again. I am not so involved. Not sure why. Maybe my view of God changed too. 

I digress. My point is that your VALUES should tell you that it is okay to move on. Value yourself. Value fidelity. Value your emotional well being.

Many times we try and fail. This failure is hers.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Moto, any update on your situation? Did you paternity test the kids? Have wife take a poly? Is she showing any remorse yet?


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Update please.

Experience has shown that a poly and DNA are needed.


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