# Kissing (sorry long post)



## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

Hello All, I just found this site. It looks like a great place to get different point of views.

Here’s my situation… my wife and I are in our early 30’s and have been married for 10 years. I love her deeply and she loves me too (I really feel she does). We’re a great team. We have two kids, a nice house, a dog… life is good. My issue is she hasn’t really kissed me (passionately) in 8 years and I beg her too. Our sex life is also getting very slow and cold. She still turns me on and I keep myself in shape too. She claims to love me sooo much but gets irritated when I bring up sex. She’s fine with cold mechanical sex once every 10 days or so. Of course I’d love to make love every 2-3 days 

I’ve tried everything. I take her out to eat at least once a week (she loves that). I make time for us. We watch movies a couple times a week. I give her back massages and foot massages daily. She also loves that. I write her love notes and so on. I think I’m very romantic. I love to just hold her and be by her but there has to be sex at some point too, right? 

I think the problem might be she is OCD and is germ phobic. I think this may be why she won’t kiss me (germs) and sex can’t be passionate because she may get some of her wetness on her (just a guess for the rigid board position she takes in bed). We used to make out and have great sex when we were dating but really our whole marriage our love life has been pretty G rated. The only time we’ve had good sex in our marriage was when we ran across some pot on one of our anniversaries and let me tell you she kissed me like crazy and it was great! 

Am I just being a stupid guy here? I’ve talked with my wife numerous times about this, but it always ends up the same. She says, “why do you try to make me feel bad” and “you’re too picky”. I just don’t know what to do. I’ve asked for marriage counseling and she’s not interested. I’m truly not happy and when I think about never kissing anyone or making passionate love to anyone again I just feel like there’s no point to anything… I feel cold and empty. Divorce is not an option in our families so I feel I’ll just end up suppressing my feelings and growing old in a cold marriage. The only thing that works for me is to not think about it. 

I’m so sorry for the long first post but there’s a lot going on here and I wanted you to know it all before anyone commented. Thank you.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Well you can't control her actions and it sounds like you won't consider divorce. You're in a bind. She seems very comfortable and doesn't see any reason to change. It seems that the only road is to change your boundaries with her. Why should she be so comfortable while you're suffering. 

You said you work out, make decent money, and are emotionally available and romantic. I think you're in a position, where you can voice your needs and say that the marriage is suffering and that you want to work with her bring it back. You might also want to take a look at No More Mr Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Life Primer. 

If it is OCD, it'd be nice if she took responsibility for that, got some help, and tried to work with you. Below is a book that covers sex and OCD.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks for the quick response!

Do you think by deciding to sleep on the couch until things improved, that would help or hurt my situation? I'm the type of person who just wants her to be happy so I usually give in easily. I don't know how long I could even do this.

FYI in the 14 years I've known her I've never heard her say she's sorry. She defiantly is in charge but always claims to be the victim.... I suppose by claiming to be the victim she plays on my need to make her happy?


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Get the book Married Man Sex Life. I don't know if it fits your situation, but it may be that you are being too beta (nice guy) and need to mix in some alpha. Marriedmansexlife.com

Your situation sounds a bit like mine...without the OCD part. I am the romantic one in our relationship. With my wife, it is more about her propensity to get preoccupied with responsibilities. We also have totally different love languages as well as personalities. Many times if I want a passionate kiss, I just take her and give her one and make it last for at least 10 seconds. That will usually clear her mind! 

Let me know if you need more info.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

I think you need to do 'something' to shake up her world. Sleeping on the couch may well be a start. It sends a clear message... I can't imagine how painful it must be to lie next to a spouse night after night wanting to kiss and cuddle.... and knowing 'they' don't want that from you. Heartbreaking.

Mostly people don't change unless they HAVE to. Change it difficult and requires effort and it is sometimes painful.

She doesn't want to go to a counsellor because she knows withholding affection and sex in a marriage is just plain wrong. No-one marries expecting to live a life devoid of affection. A counsellor will point this out to her...

I would go to counselling... she can always join you and work on your issues/marriage OR you can go alone and learn about what is acceptable to you and what boundaries and limits you want to set for yourself. You deserve better than your getting.

You need a new plan...what you've been doing isn't working.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

waiwera said:


> I can't imagine how painful it must be to lie next to a spouse night after night wanting to kiss and cuddle.... and knowing 'they' don't want that from you. Heartbreaking.


It's a horrible feeling. Especially as she cuddles the dog and then tells me she's just not an affectionate person.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

Thanks to all of the above posts. I really didn't expect to get anything from the heart. I truly appreciate all of the comments.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I think you should explore the book The Five Love Languages. Mine are physical touch and quality time, and my wife's are acts of service and words of affirmation. When my wife says that she is not naturally affectionate it is true. It may be a great book for both of you to read.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> I think you should explore the book The Five Love Languages.


Thanks. I haven't read the book but we did take the test together. 

My languages were, Physical Touch and Words of Affirmation. (Quality Time was almost tied with Words of Affirmation)

Her languages were, Quality Time and Acts of Service. 

After we did this test 6 months ago I've been staying home as much as I can and helping where ever I can. Over the past month I've gotten up with our little one as much as she has. (FYI: she's a stay at home Mom) I'm just trying to show her my love in her language.

I can tell she's a little happier but I still haven't seen any change in her behavior.

Do you think reading the book would really help me? Thanks


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Jim1980 said:


> Thanks. I haven't read the book but we did take the test together.
> 
> My languages were, Physical Touch and Words of Affirmation. (Quality Time was almost tied with Words of Affirmation)
> 
> ...


She's happier, but has she done anything to address your love languages. Do you see any effort there?

If not, why not? Have you challenged her on this? My hunch is that she's getting everything she wants and you keep trying to fill in the well, addressing her needs, and getting less and less back from her. 

You're in a downward relationship spiral. You're too beta, not enough alpha, and she doesn't respect you anymore. In addition to Married Man Sex Life, you may want to explore "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. Provides good framework for how and why relationships can slide into the state you find yourself in now.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

MarriedTex said:


> She's happier, but has she done anything to address your love languages. Do you see any effort there?
> 
> If not, why not? Have you challenged her on this? My hunch is that she's getting everything she wants and you keep trying to fill in the well, addressing her needs, and getting less and less back from her.
> 
> You're in a downward relationship spiral. You're too beta, not enough alpha, and she doesn't respect you anymore. In addition to Married Man Sex Life, you may want to explore "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. Provides good framework for how and why relationships can slide into the state you find yourself in now.


I agree. There are ways of showing her love according to her love language and still exhibit alpha characteristics. I also think it would help if you both read the book together. You can show her love according to her love language all day but she must make an effort to reciprocate. The alpha part comes when you will not put up with meeting her needs with very little in return.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

if you've read the book 5 love languages then you need to start doing your wifes love language every day !

re read the book if you need help

as for the OCD i really dont know much about that, but if shes scared to get wet or bed wet, grab a towel out of the bathroom and lay that down on the bed ??
maybe that may help

i love kissing and always complained that my hubby didnt do it enough and loved being intimate together 2 to 3 times a week also......
wasnt enough to stop him from straying though

maybe i should read him your story ??

good luck


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

romantic_guy said:


> I agree. There are ways of showing her love according to her love language and still exhibit alpha characteristics. I also think it would help if you both read the book together. You can show her love according to her love language all day but she must make an effort to reciprocate. The alpha part comes when you will not put up with meeting her needs with very little in return.


When do I decide to put my foot down? I can promise the day I do this I'll be the bad guy! She'll try to turn this on me and get furious. (Remember she's never said she's sorry). Then I'll cave and say I'm sorry. I really don't think I realized I gave into here so much until I started this post.

Everyone in this thread says I need to be more Alpha, but really I just want to be nice to her. I guess I'll have to fight this urge if I want anything my way?? I just feel like a jerk typing this.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Dear Mr. Jim, from your description, I think right now your wife does not love you as much as you love her. The question is: are you willing to live this kind of life for the rest of your time on Earth? If she refuses counselling, then request separation. Because your happiness is just as important as hers. She's happy with the current situation, you're NOT happy, and that's not the way a marriage should work. If she won't do her best to make you happy, or at least to work as much as you'd work to make her happy, then you have an unbalanced marriage. Not good at all.

Do you want to be unbalanced for 20, 30 more years for now? Life is too short to feel such unhappiness for far too long.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Dear Mr. Jim, from your description, I think right now your wife does not love you as much as you love her. The question is: are you willing to live this kind of life for the rest of your time on Earth? If she refuses counselling, then request separation. Because your happiness is just as important as hers. She's happy with the current situation, you're NOT happy, and that's not the way a marriage should work. If she won't do her best to make you happy, or at least to work as much as you'd work to make her happy, then you have an unbalanced marriage. Not good at all.
> 
> Do you want to be unbalanced for 20, 30 more years for now? Life is too short to feel such unhappiness for far too long.


You pretty much stated what I've thinking but don't want to believe. Thank you for the post.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

I took the advice of many on this thread and looked at the book, "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I figured it was just about me being tougher but it looks to be much more. I'm only through the first couple pages but it sounds exactly like me. (edit: well I read a few more pages and it doesn't sound much like me at all anymore but I still think it'll help.) Thanks for the advice. There I go again being nice


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Jim, there's nothing wrong on being nice. But there are certain times where you must be firm and demanding, not weak and facilitating. 

First you must believe that you do NOT want to spend the rest of your life in an unbalanced marriage. Second, you must be firm in making efforts to have more balance in your marriage. There are professional helps available to achieve this if you and your wife are willing. 

But if your spouse is not cooperating, then she is not a good-wife material. You said it yourself, she is more affectionate to her dog than to you. 



> It's a horrible feeling. Especially as she cuddles the dog and then tells me she's just not an affectionate person..



To me it sounds like an ultimate insult. Are you worth less than the dog?

You said divorce is not an option. Well you are a Westerner, you HAVE that option, don't anybody tell you any different. Many of us Asians are not so lucky. 

Divorce is a last-resort option, something to do if all else failed miserably, and you still value your life and your sanity.

ANd yet, it is an _option_

Something to think about, Mr. Jim.

Good luck to you.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Be nice! But don't be a doormat.
My H is a nice guy...we've also read that book, it's a good book IMO. I love him for his kindness and generous giving nature...he's a star!
But he wouldn't let me treat him the way your being treated, he knows he deserves better.
Don't place your needs below that of your wife. You also deserve to be happy and have fun and love and affection.

Don't you think so?

Regarding your wife getting crabby once you start to rock the boat.... yes she probably will! She likes life how it is... never saying sorry (how can that even happen in LTR?), doling out affection/sex etc when and if she feels like it. Why would she want to change? She's quite happy with the status quo.

SO if YOU want things to change...it's up to you to make these changes.

Is her being crabby really any worse than living how you do...day in day out?


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## lovemylife (Feb 13, 2012)

Please don't take offense because I don't mean this in that way. Just wondering if you have tried brushing your teeth and using some mouthwash before kissing you. If she has issues with germs or something like that, this may help. 

Has she always "laid there like a board" during the act? 
Has she expressed to you what she enjoys so you are sure that you are pleasuring her and she is not faking it?
Maybe she is not confident in her skills or in being more active. Encouraging and praising her during times that she gets into it may help if she is lacking confidence. (Oh yeah, I like when you.......)

I know of women that had an issue with their partners breath and didn't want to hurt his feelings, so just avoided kissing rather than asking him to brush his teeth. Same kind of thing with intercourse, not enjoying something as much and didn't want to hurt his feelings or feel comfortable speaking up about what she would prefer. Not saying this is what is going on with you, but thought I would bring it up just in case it might be a similar situation.

Some women aren't sure about asking their H to take a little authority. Try meeting her in the hall and pushing her back against the wall and kiss her passionately and let your hands wander a bit, it just might be what she wants. I figure you have a 50/50 chance and if this is not what she wants, you can try a different tactic.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Jim,
To cut to the chase, for whatever reason, your wife has no sexual attraction for you. It may be that she was once attracted to you or else she "settled" for you thinking she couldn't attract anyone better. Unless you're constantly under attack by a large number of women trying to take you away from her, she will probably lose attraction after 4-7 years, even under the best of circumstances. That's why it's called the Seven Year Itch. It's often the result of "delta" supplicating behavior on the part of the husband thinking he needs to build attraction by being "romantic" (romance is by definition adulterous - look it up google "courtly love and courts of romance) and this is an attraction killer, no matter what you saw at the movies.

When it comes to attracting a woman sexually in real life, you need to keep The Sixteen Commandments.


Take a look at the book _Married Man Sex Life Primer_, as has already been advised. The guy also runs a blog, which turned into the book. 

As far as you physique goes, you need to try to appeal to the woman's hardwired limbic system via "The Golden Ratio", that means your chest measured at the nipples needs to be 1.4 x your waist as measured right under the rib cage. What are these measurements on you?

A few other pertinent questions:

What does your wife do all day? Any idea?

Does your wife have a car?

What kind of shape is she in? I mean objectively?

Does she ever go out at night with her friends?


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

lovemylife said:


> Please don't take offense because I don't mean this in that way. Just wondering if you have tried brushing your teeth and using some mouthwash before kissing you. If she has issues with germs or something like that, this may help.
> 
> *No offense taken. Like I said I beleive my wife is OCD, I'm not allowed in the bed until I'm showered and I've brushed my teeth. I'm basically Mr. Hygiene. *
> 
> ...


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Jim,
> To cut to the chase, for whatever reason, your wife has no sexual attraction for you. It may be that she was once attracted to you or else she "settled" for you thinking she couldn't attract anyone better. Unless you're constantly under attack by a large number of women trying to take you away from her, she will probably lose attraction after 4-7 years, even under the best of circumstances. That's why it's called the Seven Year Itch. It's often the result of "delta" supplicating behavior on the part of the husband thinking he needs to build attraction by being "romantic" (romance is by definition adulterous - look it up google "courtly love and courts of romance) and this is an attraction killer, no matter what you saw at the movies.
> 
> When it comes to attracting a woman sexually in real life, you need to keep The Sixteen Commandments.
> ...


Thanks for the advice I'll take a look at these links.

As far as my wife goes, she's a busy Mom, has her own car, rarely goes out and would rather sleep more than anything.

We are both in pretty good shape, not over weight at all and could run 10 miles if we had to. We both get looks from the opposite sex when we go out.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

waiwera said:


> Be nice! But don't be a doormat.
> My H is a nice guy...we've also read that book, it's a good book IMO. I love him for his kindness and generous giving nature...he's a star!
> But he wouldn't let me treat him the way your being treated, he knows he deserves better.
> Don't place your needs below that of your wife. You also deserve to be happy and have fun and love and affection.
> ...


You're 100% correct. I need to make changes in how I act around her. Thanks to all of these helpful posts, I have hope. Thanks!


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## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

Sounds like your almost more of the woman in this relationship, you do everything for her. 

Maybe time to get a little dirty? Go a little caveman on her next time your out. Whisper some nasty things in her ear when your out getting a drink, maybe shes used to who you are now and its time to change it up.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Jim1980 said:


> Thanks for the advice I'll take a look at these links.
> 
> As far as my wife goes, she's a busy Mom, has her own car, rarely goes out and would rather sleep more than anything.


This may sound off the wall to you, but if I were in your shoes, I'd check her cell phone bill for heavy action on unknown phone numbers, GPS her car, and VAR it.

At 30, your wife is hitting testosterone maximum where Mother Nature wants her to collect some strange male essence to avoid having all her eggs in your basket when she enters infertility in 10 or 15 years.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

So wait. She cuddles the DOG but won't cuddle you. And your conclusion is that she must be germ phobic? Do you always make excuses for her behavior?


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## ChiGirl (Jan 20, 2013)

Have you considered maybe she doesn't like the way you kiss? Or she thinks she is not a good kisser etc??

I have dated men who I was attracted to.. but were terrible kissers. Just my 2 cents


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

ChiGirl said:


> Have you considered maybe she doesn't like the way you kiss? Or she thinks she is not a good kisser etc??
> 
> I have dated men who I was attracted to.. but were terrible kissers. Just my 2 cents


In all my other relationships this was my strong point and when we were dating we'd makeout until our lips were raw.


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## Jim1980 (Jan 22, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> So wait. She cuddles the DOG but won't cuddle you. And your conclusion is that she must be germ phobic? Do you always make excuses for her behavior?


I guess I do.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Jim1980 said:


> I guess I do.


Ya. Stop that.


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## ChiGirl (Jan 20, 2013)

I was just wondering.. I had a very sexual/kissing relationship with an ex bf.. but my H.. well.. idk.. I loved him, but there was something about the kissing that was "off" . Then when he started having anger issues etc it made me not kiss him for BOTH reasons...

It could be that you are being "too nice", women who are dominant may lose some respect for you. For me it was even if he couldn't do something.. it's not that he couldn't do it, it's the way he approached the situation (even minor).

But I am separated 

This may sound simplistic.. BUT I am pretty dominant/independent, so if a guy is too nice and I feel like I am wearing the pants, it's a turn off. There is a delicate balance going on, and if she feels like she is the only one handling things and being assertive she may pull away from you (like she would from a nice male friend) 

IDK if this is your situation, but it was mine- in part


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

ChiGirl said:


> I was just wondering.. I had a very sexual/kissing relationship with an ex bf.. but my H.. well.. idk.. I loved him, but there was something about the kissing that was "off" . Then when he started having anger issues etc it made me not kiss him for BOTH reasons...
> 
> It could be that you are being "too nice", women who are dominant may lose some respect for you. For me it was even if he couldn't do something.. it's not that he couldn't do it, it's the way he approached the situation (even minor).
> 
> ...



Actually it sounds you aren't truly dominant, you like to be more submissive. A truly dominant person wants to wear the pants in the relationship.

But what you are saying is true on most accounts.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> This may sound off the wall to you, but if I were in your shoes, I'd check her cell phone bill for heavy action on unknown phone numbers, GPS her car, and VAR it.
> 
> At 30, your wife is hitting testosterone maximum where Mother Nature wants her to collect some strange male essence to avoid having all her eggs in your basket when she enters infertility in 10 or 15 years.


I'll spell it out for you, she's cuddling more than the dog.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

Jim1980 said:


> Hello All, I just found this site. It looks like a great place to get different point of views.
> 
> Here’s my situation… my wife and I are in our early 30’s and have been married for 10 years. I love her deeply and she loves me too (I really feel she does). We’re a great team. We have two kids, a nice house, a dog… life is good. My issue is she hasn’t really kissed me (passionately) in 8 years and I beg her too. Our sex life is also getting very slow and cold. She still turns me on and I keep myself in shape too. She claims to love me sooo much but gets irritated when I bring up sex. She’s fine with cold mechanical sex once every 10 days or so. Of course I’d love to make love every 2-3 days
> 
> ...


Dear Jim. Some members here have already analysed your post very well and their hints and help is really good. I am glad you are reading No More Mr Nice Guy as we speak right now. In order to accelerate the process of getting what YOU want out of your marriage I want you to read the following:

*1. *You have to start *taking ACTIONS*. Meaning that reading and taking hints wont solve your problem. You ll even find yourself wanting more help from us here though it is only patience that is lacking you. Rome wasnt build in a day, but they began building one day, you know..

*2.* Getting what you want out of (any) relationship is a matter of percieved *VALUE*. So to speek that when people have a certain picture of you they act in a certain way onto you, you get it?
An example is our behaviour around one of our parents as kids. Most of the time you would act more freely when with one parent and more "behaved" when with the other. U would sometime also tend only to ask for favours from the parent who would never turn you down etc..

The same occures to your wife. You have done so much for her that she is used to get a lot for giving little. Dont take this bad, but this is a serious problem in our society.
E.g. you ve been taking her out for dinner hoping to get favours in return. You ve been wanting to kiss her and the more you want it, the more she turns you down.
All the rejections you get are because you want too much from her. In her eyes you arent the guy she is ready to kiss anytime or to sleep with frequently. *GOOD that you are on your way to becoming this kind of guy!*.. In order for her to stop rejecting you frequently and for her to start to want to make you happy, you have to:

*a) LET GO OF MOST OF THE WANTING* for a period of 3-6 months (that is the time my clients had managed to turn around the whole game and to start living in a balanced get and give relationship..).
b) Like written in NMMNGuy, you have to *transform all your "unsexy" traits into sexy traits.* It is simple but need courage once in a while 
*c) *When you arent getting what you want, *dont make it a big deal.* The easiest way to do this is to change the topic or get a cup of coffee (incase your wife brings your new behaviour onto topic, behave stupid)
*d)* When she makes remarks on your new you, *dont boast and dont defend yourself.* Juist smile and say that things at work are running great since some days (I advice you to mostly give a happy vide when coming home, that will turn her on)

3. (Most difficult one) - You have too see yourself as the one who gives sex and the one who decides wether kissing right now is good or not. the best way to do all this is to fake it till you make it (takes about 5-6 weeks!). You will never need to say that you give sex and that wont be wise, cause your wife surely believes its not true, because you always want her more than she wants you. So the best thing to do is to spread a positive vide as I mentioned.
When it comes to the kissing you will better always count the amount of kisses you give her per day till u get used to recieving kisses out of the blue. *For the start you have 2 kisses per day!* These are only cheek kisses. U ll have to keep your mouth kissing only for when having sex. When things get better, you can drop this, but the game will have to be played till card are equal..

4. It is time to stop doing everything she wants from you. This might cause some fights between both of you for some weeks but you will be surprised how loving she will become if you state your backbone. This is done by not taking the quarells too serious and giving her right when querrelling. That means that you will face times when what she is saying doesnt make sence at all! DO NOT remark it or call her on it, just nod. Do not argue (Most of the wives of my clients have confessed that arguing ist unsex and that most of the time they had already understood their husbands first statement and only just wanted the fight. So, do not argue your point more than ONCE! LEt go and relax). Once in a while you will have to calm her down by taking her in your arms and letting her just talk (Done once in a while, this is very manly, do not over do it..).

5. If not already, you will soon feel more fullfilled and dominant in a positive way in your marriage. That is when your value is starting to build. When this begins, then it is time to ask your wife for small favours (never for sex or any sexual thing!). For example let her make you some coffee when you come home or something similar. And sure, it should be your duty to also return some favours back or do something she would like (*so long she asks nicely and not imperatively!*)
I advise you to stop to do anything you currently do for her without her asking asking for it! This is important because then she will wake up and start demanding for them, which also adds you more value. Your layed backness will not be taken well initially but if you keep your FRAME, you will notice more (sexual) advance onto you from her side. This can be new underwears, shoes, more touching, more laughing, more submissivness, confused (she accidentally breaks plates or glasses or is forgetful), agressivness towards the kids (this is temporaly, dont call her on it!), she wants frequently know where your are going etc..


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