# Why does the WS not realise how much it hurts?



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

In my own case my wife seemed nonplussed that I was hurting so much from her betrayal.

And other BS had said their WS seemed horrified and puzzled at the amount of hurt that they caused.

Some have said: "But I thought you'd be happy for me that I was happy!"

Is it the dreaded fog effect, again?:scratchhead:


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I think if they had the power of empathy, they would not be having affairs. Or a WS that might be capable of empathy in other situations, probably minimizes the damage that affairs do in their mind so as to minimize the guilt that they will feel later. 

I've also seen people equate a lack of sex or going on dates with their spouses as a form of infidelity to justify their affairs... no it's not the same.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ya I have been there, they realy don't see the hurt until you lay into them. At least in my case, my old lady didn't see the hurt I had untils I was willing to let her go, and telling her that it was no longer about her, it was me, it was me moving on and it was up to her to keep up, or not.

Its wierd for me, once you stop calling your chick out and follow your own boundries its like you take back the control, your like no longer codependent, or taking their sh1t.


Don't walk infront of me, don't walk behind me, but walk next to me!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Miss Taken said:


> I think if they had the power of empathy, they would not be having affairs. Or a WS that might be capable of empathy in other situations, probably minimizes the damage that affairs do in their mind so as to minimize the guilt that they will feel later.
> 
> I've also seen people equate a lack of sex or going on dates with their spouses as a form of infidelity to justify their affairs... no it's not the same.


I was banging my wife and taking her out, its how I was banging her and were I was taking her out that made her deside that the young buck was more under her controled then her own husband was. I never really saw empathy come into play, but thats how I see it.

BAck in the day I always thought that as long as I got mine 1st then my spouse could get what ever...giving the OM my sloppy seconds.

My FWW didn't have feelings after a while. Empathy was surely not one of them. It was more like a bandaid for her self. I know that the more I turned her out the more she escaped into a fantasy of her own.

There was no way she could feel the same hurt I felt, just like there was no way I could feel the same hurt she felt.


It was only when we worked on our selves as individuals that we started to be attracted to each other.

Once I stopped hitting her, my wife saw a new guy that had alot going.

Once she stopped screwing around, I saw a new women that wasn't a shamed of what she wanted to be.


In the end there is a commitment that one has to make as individuals, a set boundries that one must have and the consequences when someone crosses them.

In the end, I don't like being stabed or shot. I don't like going to county...or even state for that matter. I don't like fighting , I don't like being that angry guy.

In the end. I don't like waking up naked next to some one you have no idea who his name is, I don't like looking for my car in the morning, I don't like the walk of shame.

In the end , *we* as individuals don't like what we have become. we don't like being witness to what our kids have seen. We just can't live this life style and be happy.

I can't be an angry guy who loves to fight and focus on making a score. She cant be a horney girl who loves phucking any guy to make a score.

There comes a point were you make a commitment to the one the loves you more then the score!


I think the my wayward knows exactly how much it hurts!


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## Furious George (Nov 14, 2011)

If they cared one second about how you felt, they wouldn't have cheated in the first place. Even if they do know, it's likely they don't care. My wayward backed-into a ton of reasons why she had to cheat. It was entirely my fault of course. I've found the best way to deal with it is to employ the 180 and view anything you had or shared as being dead now... The best revenge is moving on.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

i cant tell you when my XW cheated on me she would never admit to it and the we D and that was the end of that


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> In my own case my wife seemed nonplussed that I was hurting so much from her betrayal.
> 
> And other BS had said their WS seemed horrified and puzzled at the amount of hurt that they caused.
> 
> ...


But she 'gets it' now though doesn't she?

I thought that even despite her problems she was remorseful, didn't you write somewhere that she said something along the lines of "It must have been awful for you."

How did she react to your almost revenge affair?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> In my own case my wife seemed nonplussed that I was hurting so much from her betrayal.
> 
> And other BS had said their WS seemed horrified and puzzled at the amount of hurt that they caused.
> 
> ...


Brain chemicals and rationalization protective measures.

That said, some people are just sociopathic. They don't care. They have no consience. They live off others pain and humiliation.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Compartmentalization allows them to sort reality into neat little segments that do not interact with one another.

WS: "Im still coming home, hugging my BS, kissing him/her, helping with house chores. Since he/she doesn't know im having an EA/PA with the OM/OW there couldn't possibly be anything wrong."

After the DDay, if the WS is interested in R, they can and usually do understand how much pain they've caused to their spouse. It may take some time and effort, but once the last of the fog lifts, the WS sees the damage. In my opinion, it is the first hurdle for the couple to overcome when R begins. If the WS is truly remorseful, they have a very difficult time facing themselves and accepting that they have hurt their spouse so much. The guilt and shame of acknowledging what they have done can easily derail the efforts to R early on in the process. Thats why I tend to say that the BS is tasked with double duty most of the time. The BS has to help the fWS accept that part of themselves, and keep the R on track.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

The second best thing to do if you get cheated on is to practice indifference. because every time you express your pain the only thing that gets into their crazed brains is that _ they_ matter. This is generally the only way of dealing with narcissists. 

The best thing to do would be to express your pain through success. Nothing says loser like a cheating ex wife or husband having to see their significant others date younger women/richer men.

And lastly, its a futile exercise to figure out a cheater.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

As long as they can cheat without having to make a conscious decision about its effects( the emotional disconnect, separation, divorce) they feel free to continue without any worries, regret, guilt etc.(well okay, subconsciously they may be dreading the outcome but it doesn't register on a conscious level)

A cheater is always indifferent to their spouse when the truth is hidden. When you try to make them understand your pain that is caused by their actions(without blowing up the affair first), they will only see you as clingy and emotionally dependent. Unfortunately this approach is very commonly taken by BS's.

Edit: I was vague. The "why" is compartmentalization, as stated by an above poster. The rational side of the brain(which is run by typical human needs, wants, thoughts, beliefs, feelings) of the cheater is completely cut off by the irrational side(which is run by the rationalization hamster). It is not uncommon for a person in an affair to say "I would never cheat" to their spouse. When their spouse believes them,however, they aren't above thinking "What a stupid guy/girl! How could he/she believe that?"

Only by showing the rational side unrefutable evidence of the affair can you fuse them back together(and of course not accepting the gaslighting, blameshifting, trickletruthing etc etc).


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Because they really don't care. Once in the fog, it's all about self-gratification, and unselfishness has no meaning.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> But she 'gets it' now though doesn't she?
> 
> I thought that even despite her problems she was remorseful, didn't you write somewhere that she said something along the lines of "It must have been awful for you."
> 
> How did she react to your almost revenge affair?


Yes, eventually she understood, but at first, yes, nonplussed was the best way to describe it.

About my revenge affair, she was upset but after a brief period of being very angry, a couple of days, she suddenly calmed down and accepted what had happened.

She told me that she'd rather I didn't go for counselling (she didn't want her colleagues and friends in the counselling profession to know our business and, to be frank, neither did I) so she gave me counselling which helped immensely and she got me an appointment to get a short course of Seroxat, which also helped.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

The more you post about your wife, the more it makes me think you are in a very bad relationship. Are you happy Matt or are you fooling yourself ? Remove the positive spin you give to your stories and then you see a very different marriage


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Paladin said:


> Compartmentalization allows them to sort reality into neat little segments that do not interact with one another.
> 
> WS: "Im still coming home, hugging my BS, kissing him/her, helping with house chores. Since he/she doesn't know im having an EA/PA with the OM/OW there couldn't possibly be anything wrong."
> 
> After the DDay, if the WS is interested in R, they can and usually do understand how much pain they've caused to their spouse. It may take some time and effort, but once the last of the fog lifts, the WS sees the damage. In my opinion, it is the first hurdle for the couple to overcome when R begins. If the WS is truly remorseful, they have a very difficult time facing themselves and accepting that they have hurt their spouse so much. The guilt and shame of acknowledging what they have done can easily derail the efforts to R early on in the process. Thats why I tend to say that the BS is tasked with double duty most of the time. The BS has to help the fWS accept that part of themselves, and keep the R on track.


You just described Regret214 to the letter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> The more you post about your wife, the more it makes me think you are in a very bad relationship. Are you happy Matt or are you fooling yourself ? Remove the positive spin you give to your stories and then you see a very different marriage


I have done this and I have realised that I still love my wife as much as I ever did.

I have to make accommodations for her health issues (can't make any sudden moves or touch her unexpectedly as she can have a panic attack as a result of her condition. Also, no loud noises, either as they freak her out.

She suffers very badly with her joints (several types of rheumatism and arthritis.)

Sometimes she is a mature woman, sometimes a little girl, especially if she panics over a flash of light or a loud noise.

We were out for a walk the other day and I thought: "Did we really both make such bizarre decisions all those years ago?"

I find it hard to believe that we were at such a low point 15 years or so back.

It's not always been easy, but many of these problems relate to other aspects of her neurological and physical conditions, not the cheating.

But generally? It's all pretty good, considering the stuff we went through.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Ah yes, the lovely compartmentalization...

To this day, it still bothers me that when I asked her 
how did she EXPECT me to feel after being cheated on like that,
she replied with "well, I knew you'd be mad."

*Mad*?

I get mad when my favorite hockey team loses or
when I have to pay extra money for something... this?
This goes far beyond mad.

Just clueless.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Until you make them hurt more than you have been hurt, they will never understand.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Until you make them hurt more than you have been hurt, they will never understand.


If they are decent people they hurt plenty once the fog lifts. More than the WS? Dunno, how do you measure that?

But I don't know how you really understand the pain of being cheated on until it happens to you.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Wazza said:


> But I don't know how you really understand the pain of being cheated on until it happens to you.


That's one way. Embarrassment by wide and explicit exposure could be another.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Brain chemicals and rationalization protective measures.
> 
> That said, some people are just sociopathic. They don't care. They have no consience. They live off others pain and humiliation.




and make up the rules as they go along. If I do or say something, oh, that's awful. If the woman of their interest does something equally reprehensible, there's some reason as to why it's not so bad.

When I first moved to London, my exH and I made the mistake of sharing a 4 bed flat with his close friend and new wife. It was the flat of his parents and they were selling so, they wanted to get rent out of it without having a proper rental agreement. 

Anyway, it was becoming clear all the courtly behavior and assumed obligations to this wife that my exH was having some kind of EA with her. One day she said she was inviting some friends over for dinner without making it clear that we were welcomed to join them. I couldn't understand why my exH assumed that he was supposed to cook something for the party.

We decided to leave the flat. Before we left, I amde sure the kitchen was clean and told my exH to have a look. He told me he trusted me and didn't to see it.

Months later when this woman's nastiness towards me was impossible to ignore, Iasked my exH (when he was my husband) why did he think she was like that towards. He said a few things and then sepcifically said, maybe because you left the kitchen a mess that day. He told me that because he did not see it before we left, he had no way of knowing what condition it was in ande despite telling me that day that he trusted me, he was unable to feel confident as to what condition she found it in.

No wonder I'm constantly on high alert these days.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

They did'nt care about your pain or the hell you were going through,they only care about their happiness,them selves and the AP.
Thats what my WW told me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

calvin said:


> They did'nt care about your pain or the hell you were going through,they only care about their happiness,them selves and the AP.
> Thats what my WW told me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never got told that in words but it was obviously true. Sigh.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> In my own case my wife seemed nonplussed that I was hurting so much from her betrayal.
> 
> And other BS had said their WS seemed horrified and puzzled at the amount of hurt that they caused.
> 
> ...


Matt, I think I have this solved.
You know that feeling you get when you can do something for a loved one that makes them happy?
Cheaters are incapable of getting that feeling. They only get it when somebody does something nice FOR THEM.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

My WH, now my ex, has brief moments of guilt and regret but he still rationalizes his choices. He will say that cheating on me for thirteen years was a mistake, but in the same breath points out the mistakes I made that lead him to it. He will never own it. He's not capable. He's the poster boy for narcissism. 

It would be entirely too painful for him to look that hard in the mirror. He might burst into flames!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> They did'nt care about your pain or the hell you were going through,they only care about their happiness,them selves and the AP.
> Thats what my WW told me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, that's about it, Calvin. 

My wife said: "Matt, I know this is going to hurt you and I'm sorry about that. But it's something I have to do for me."


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## ChangingMe (Oct 3, 2012)

Paladin said:


> Compartmentalization allows them to sort reality into neat little segments that do not interact with one another.
> 
> WS: "Im still coming home, hugging my BS, kissing him/her, helping with house chores. Since he/she doesn't know im having an EA/PA with the OM/OW there couldn't possibly be anything wrong."
> 
> After the DDay, if the WS is interested in R, they can and usually do understand how much pain they've caused to their spouse. It may take some time and effort, but once the last of the fog lifts, the WS sees the damage. In my opinion, it is the first hurdle for the couple to overcome when R begins. If the WS is truly remorseful, they have a very difficult time facing themselves and accepting that they have hurt their spouse so much. The guilt and shame of acknowledging what they have done can easily derail the efforts to R early on in the process. Thats why I tend to say that the BS is tasked with double duty most of the time. The BS has to help the fWS accept that part of themselves, and keep the R on track.


This is almost exactly how I remember it being, except I did know there was something wrong. I wasn't completely oblivious to it, but I was damn good at compartmentalizing. When DD discovered my PA, all the compartmentalizing fell away, and it was crystal clear how everything I'd been doing impacted every single part of my life -my husband, kids, parents, friends, work, my self-image, you name it. The compartmentalizing was a farce. 

It's hard for me to really remember it, even at only 8 months out, because I barely recognize or understand how I could be at that place, but I really was shocked at how hurt my husband was by my cheating. That sounds incredibly dumb to say, I know. It does to me too. But I remember last summer, when he was suicidal, how I couldn't believe that I was capable of hurting him that badly. I really had convinced myself that he would be a lot more angry than sad. And while of course he was angry, he was very hurt and sad as well. I hadn't allowed myself to think too much on that. It was painful and uncomfortable, so in the midst of my A, I just did my best to ignore the possible outcomes of discovery. 

I think you are spot-on about how, when the fog lifts, the WS sees the damage. I told DD the week after DDay2, that it was like standing out on the destruction of a enormous earthquake or hurricane and knowing I was the cause. I couldn't even wrap my brain around it. Even now, it can totally overwhelm me to see how my husband has changed -how cynical and distant he is, the walls he now has firmly in place when it comes to me -and how I became a person I barely recognize and don't want to be. I have a lot of self-hate and guilt, but I actually try to keep my sadness and pain from DD most of the time. I don't feel like I can ask him to console me. I don't know when or if I will ever truly forgive myself. Just hearing that the xOMW's said she has forgiven me really overwhelmed me, as I feel completely undeserving of that forgiveness.

I won't say that, as a fWS, I know the how much a BS hurts. I haven't experienced the hurt from that side, so I can't know 100%. But I can tell you that I've been here as DD has gone through discovery, suicidal thoughts, rage, pain, aloofness, and millions of other intense emotions. I've seen the hell that he has gone through, I have borne the brunt of his feelings (and rightly so). This has been the most painful thing I have gone through as well, and I get the added element of knowing I brought it on myself. I cannot fathom a person having an affair and going through the aftermath, only to cheat again. This has been hell, and it makes the time I spent with xOM look cheap and stupid and pointless. I would never put someone I love (or really, lots of people I love, counting my kids and other family and friends) through this level of pain ever again. I wouldn't put myself through this level of pain again. 

It's awful.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Congratulations CM, you're not a sociopath. 


You ask how could someone cheat again? They do it because they can't properly empathize with others. They don't see the pain they put their BS through, or if they do get some inkling they don't care.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

hookares said:


> Matt, I think I have this solved.
> You know that feeling you get when you can do something for a loved one that makes them happy?
> Cheaters are incapable of getting that feeling. They only get it when somebody does something nice FOR THEM.


Well, sometimes, yes. But my wife enjoys doing nice things for me, and did some nice things for me during her affair, so maybe some cheaters are incapable of getting that feeling?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> In my own case my wife seemed nonplussed that I was hurting so much from her betrayal.
> 
> And other BS had said their WS seemed horrified and puzzled at the amount of hurt that they caused.
> 
> Some have said: "But I thought you'd be happy for me that I was happy!"


Perhaps the act horrified. Its for show. Men are usually in affairs for recreational sex, and may get in over their heads and start like the OW after she puts something on him that paint stripper won't take off. Women, on the other hand think, "why should I stay loyal to a man I no longer have much romantic feeling for when I'm in to this other guy"
Believe me, women don't cheat on a man who they have a high level of romantic feel.


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