# My story...



## Spartan01

Me -48 W-46 Married 22 years - 3 kids. 

Marriage has been a struggle since inception.....esp on sexual side of things. I have always told her that if I didn't initiate it wouldn't happen...she would make this excuse and that excuse. She always excused me of "that's all you think about type of thing" - then I began to feel guilty about it. Like - well maybe she is right??? So last the last time we had sex I lay there in bed thinking why did I just do that....im having sex with someone who doesn't really want it. So I drew a line and started an experiment of not initiating or trying anything involving intimacy with her. That was last November...it is now my 1-year anniversary of "no sexual contact" with her. 

My question to all of you......Do I mourn the loss of a marriage and move on? or mourn the loss of never feeling intimate with anyone ever again?


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## Marc878

You don't go your own way here you'll just get more of what you've been getting.

You can kiss her ass all you want, buy flowers, read books, do all the housework, etc, etc, etc.

You've already wasted a year of your life on what?

You'll either make a decision or continue to wallow in what you've been wallowing in.

Life is short. Maybe you should wake up to reality now.


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## sunsetmist

Spartan01 said:


> Me -48 W-46 Married 22 years - 3 kids.
> 
> Marriage has been a struggle since inception.....esp on sexual side of things. I have always told her that if I didn't initiate it wouldn't happen...she would make this excuse and that excuse. She always excused me of "that's all you think about type of thing" - then I began to feel guilty about it. Like - well maybe she is right??? So last the last time we had sex I lay there in bed thinking why did I just do that....im having sex with someone who doesn't really want it. So I drew a line and started an experiment of not initiating or trying anything involving intimacy with her. That was last November...it is now my 1-year anniversary of "no sexual contact" with her.
> 
> My question to all of you......Do I mourn the loss of a marriage and move on? or mourn the loss of never feeling intimate with anyone ever again?


You have asked the right question and only you have the correct answer. She is NOT likely to suddenly turn into a needy sex goddess. If she knew her marriage depended on it, what would she do?

Have you considered sex therapy for both? Have you read 'Married Man's Sex Life Primer'?


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## Spicy

How sad. 

Did she even notice? Has she said anything?


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## Spartan01

Maybe a month or so ago I asked her if she knew the last time we had had sex....surprisingly she knew the answer. Therapy is a no go - she doesn't believe in it. Says its a waste of time.


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## SunCMars

Spicy said:


> How sad.
> 
> *Did she even notice? * Has she said anything?



Huhhh, what? :surprise:

You bet she has noticed. :|
You bet she don't care! :frown2:


Wives notice everything.

They fiddle-faddle with things important to them.

They friiter-flip away the acorns that sour their day.

The acorns with the stick still attached!

Yep!

You made her day by being celibate.

You did as you were told...right?

You were admonished for having sex on your mind.
You eliminated her complaint.
You obeyed, she is happy.

Oh, my! :crying:


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## Marc878

Spartan01 said:


> Maybe a month or so ago I asked her if she knew the last time we had had sex....surprisingly she knew the answer. Therapy is a no go - she doesn't believe in it. Says its a waste of time.


The best thing you can do is stop living on hopium. Hoping she'l "get it". You are the one that doesn't get it. Sex is important in a marriage and she doesn't care enough about you or the marriage to put any effort in at all. She's fine with it. You've shown her and taught her you'll do nothing but accept it.

There is no magic fix. The good thing is in another 10 years or so of wasting your life on someone who'd doesn't care you'll lose your libido and it won't bother you as much.

Apparently you just go along with whatever she wants so that's all you'll ever get.

Read up it's short
https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy


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## Adelais

Was there ever a time when sex was initiated equally by both and at the same time frequency was acceptable to you?

Could your wife be the responsive desire type? When you did make love, would she enjoy it once she was aroused?

Or did your wife examine the pattern in the ceiling drywall while making love?

If sex was never good, and you initially were happy pursuing, then you should not be surprised it is still that way.

If she used to initiate, something has changed, and if she refuses to talk about it with you, and she also refuses counseling, you will end up having to make a decision about whether you want to remain married.

Whatever you do, don't seek sex outside of your marriage. If you can't live without it, divorce her and then look for someone who can be an equal partner with you.


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## Spartan01

I also asked her if she thought we would have sex again? Her answer....I don't know. Of course I already knew the answer....We won't. I don't want to. So now on to my next issue...To be honest I am afraid of being alone. My wife was never my best friend and I am afraid I will never find that being on my own. I want a best friend. Too much to ask for right?


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## Spartan01

Drywall pattern in the ceiling.....LOL


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## ConanHub

Spartan01 said:


> Me -48 W-46 Married 22 years - 3 kids.
> 
> Marriage has been a struggle since inception.....esp on sexual side of things. I have always told her that if I didn't initiate it wouldn't happen...she would make this excuse and that excuse. She always excused me of "that's all you think about type of thing" - then I began to feel guilty about it. Like - well maybe she is right??? So last the last time we had sex I lay there in bed thinking why did I just do that....im having sex with someone who doesn't really want it. So I drew a line and started an experiment of not initiating or trying anything involving intimacy with her. That was last November...it is now my 1-year anniversary of "no sexual contact" with her.
> 
> My question to all of you......Do I mourn the loss of a marriage and move on? or mourn the loss of never feeling intimate with anyone ever again?


I wouldn't have made it past two months personally.

I would divorce her but I wouldn't be mean about it.


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## ConanHub

Spartan01 said:


> I also asked her if she thought we would have sex again? Her answer....I don't know. Of course I already knew the answer....We won't. I don't want to. So now on to my next issue...To be honest I am afraid of being alone. My wife was never my best friend and I am afraid I will never find that being on my own. I want a best friend. Too much to ask for right?


Get some counseling to get yourself emotionally healthy as well as staying active and in shape.

Are you healthy physically? If not, join a gym and start it up.

Start getting legal advice to see how it will work in the divorce.

You have no marriage. You have a chain shackling you to a dried up waste who is masquerading as a woman.


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## sunsetmist

Spartan01 said:


> Maybe a month or so ago I asked her if she knew the last time we had had sex....surprisingly she knew the answer. Therapy is a no go - she doesn't believe in it. Says its a waste of time.


Therapy helps some. The work is really between the sessions, I think. Those who don't want to be told they are wrong or need help often refuse therapy--also there are those who do not want to change the status quo. IMO: most important is the skill and specialty of the therapist.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Spartan01 said:


> I also asked her if she thought we would have sex again? Her answer....I don't know. Of course I already knew the answer....We won't. I don't want to. So now on to my next issue...*To be honest I am afraid of being alone. My wife was never my best friend and I am afraid I will never find that being on my own. I want a best friend.* Too much to ask for right?


Ok, divorce is going to shake up everybody's world...how old are the children?

You know where you are now and you are afraid of where you will land (alone).

Why is alone so full of fear?

Take some time quell this first before any divorce actions are enacted...


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## Spartan01

I have been going to counseling the past year...just mainly someone to talk to. It has helped a bit....what I don't understand is why she has so much distain for sex? She has told me in the past that it just isn't her thing.....I don't understand that. 

So I am getting the presumption that most on here say move on.....but can I? Is there time for a 48 year old?


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## sunsetmist

Spartan01 said:


> I have been going to counseling the past year...just mainly someone to talk to. It has helped a bit....what I don't understand is why she has so much distain for sex? She has told me in the past that it just isn't her thing.....I don't understand that.
> 
> So I am getting the presumption that most on here say move on.....but can I? Is there time for a 48 year old?


Yes, lots of time. I'm feeling that your resentment is growing. Surely there are other losses. Is there tension at all or are you a 'grin and take it' kind of guy? The danger is falling for someone who wants all of you--divorce before infidelity.


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## Adelais

Spartan01 said:


> Drywall pattern in the ceiling.....LOL


I actually meant the plaster pattern on the drywall. Our bedroom ceiling has hand applied plaster and my husband and I have identified several animal head patterns in it...but we didn't find those while having sex, lol.



Spartan01 said:


> I also asked her if she thought we would have sex again? Her answer....I don't know. Of course I already knew the answer....We won't. I don't want to. So now on to my next issue...To be honest I am afraid of being alone. My wife was never my best friend and I am afraid I will never find that being on my own. I want a best friend. Too much to ask for right?


You didn't answer my question about whether she ever initiated, or if sex was ever frequent enough [when she also initiated.]

If she has never initiated, and she is responsive desire, her answer is an honest one: she doesn't know if you will ever initiate again.

Regarding being afraid of being alone, you will need a counselor for that. If there is no friendship between your wife and you, you are already emotionally alone in your marriage. Given that you have been married so many years to someone who is not your best friend, who you don't have sex with, and yet you are content being with her rather than being physically alone, when you are actually emotionally alone, you are probably codependent.

Your being codependent could have contributed to your wife's lack of interest in sex, and could have created some resentment in her. Resentment kills sexual desire.


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## Spartan01

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Ok, divorce is going to shake up everybody's world...how old are the children?
> 
> You know where you are now and you are afraid of where you will land (alone).
> 
> Why is alone so full of fear?
> 
> Take some time quell this first before any divorce actions are enacted...


Children 20, 17, 13......I have thought about this a lot. It all goes back to the alone part....I want a best friend. Afraid I will never find one.


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## farsidejunky

Why are you so hung up on her 'why's' rather than your own?


Spartan01 said:


> I have been going to counseling the past year...just mainly someone to talk to. It has helped a bit....what I don't understand is why she has so much distain for sex? She has told me in the past that it just isn't her thing.....I don't understand that.
> 
> So I am getting the presumption that most on here say move on.....but can I? Is there time for a 48 year old?


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Fear based decision making. 

How has that worked for you thus far?


Spartan01 said:


> Children 20, 17, 13......I have thought about this a lot. It all goes back to the alone part....I want a best friend. Afraid I will never find one.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Spartan01

Araucaria said:


> I actually meant the plaster pattern on the drywall. Our bedroom ceiling has hand applied plaster and my husband and I have identified several animal head patterns in it...but we didn't find those while having sex, lol.
> 
> You didn't answer my question about whether she ever initiated, or if sex was ever frequent enough [when she also initiated.]
> 
> If she has never initiated, and she is responsive desire, her answer is an honest one: she doesn't know if you will ever initiate again.
> 
> Regarding being afraid of being alone, you will need a counselor for that. If there is no friendship between your wife and you, you are already emotionally alone in your marriage. Given that you have been married so many years to someone who is not your best friend, who you don't have sex with, and yet you are content being with her rather than being physically alone, when you are actually emotionally alone, you are probably codependent.
> 
> Your being codependent could have contributed to your wife's lack of interest in sex, and could have created some resentment in her. Resentment kills sexual desire.



She never initiates....ever. This always made me feel unwanted in a sense if you can understand? 
Your codependent discussion I am not discounting....it warrants a further look into which I will discuss with my therapist. I travel a bit for work but when out of town I don't feel lonely....actually feel better than being at home?? I have tried to step back the last year and be my own man....my own person. She doesn't like that either....says I act weird. I really try not to rely on her for anything anymore. Not sure if this is correct approach or not. Thoughts?


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## Spartan01

farsidejunky said:


> Fear based decision making.
> 
> How has that worked for you thus far?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



So what are you trying to tell me? Give it to me straight.


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## personofinterest

ConanHub said:


> Spartan01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Me -48 W-46 Married 22 years - 3 kids.
> 
> Marriage has been a struggle since inception.....esp on sexual side of things. I have always told her that if I didn't initiate it wouldn't happen...she would make this excuse and that excuse. She always excused me of "that's all you think about type of thing" - then I began to feel guilty about it. Like - well maybe she is right??? So last the last time we had sex I lay there in bed thinking why did I just do that....im having sex with someone who doesn't really want it. So I drew a line and started an experiment of not initiating or trying anything involving intimacy with her. That was last November...it is now my 1-year anniversary of "no sexual contact" with her.
> 
> My question to all of you......Do I mourn the loss of a marriage and move on? or mourn the loss of never feeling intimate with anyone ever again?
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have made it past two months personally.
> 
> I would divorce her but I wouldn't be mean about it.
Click to expand...

This. So much this.

You'll hear a lot of crap about washing dishes and responsive desire


Bottom line - shes fine without it and doesnt care how you feel.

The end.

I wanted 2 decades trying to be perfect enough to "merit" sex. And no, it wasn't cause I sucked in bed lol

Evaluate how you want to live the next 30 years or so.


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## Marc878

You are living in fear. Affraid to make a decision so you're stuck where you are. This is on you.

Past history is the best predictor of the future. 

48 is young. You hang around in this another 10 years or so for what? She's told you and shown you all you're ever going to get. Why don't you believe her?


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## red oak

Spartan01 said:


> She never initiates....ever. This always made me feel unwanted in a sense if you can understand?
> Your codependent discussion I am not discounting....it warrants a further look into which I will discuss with my therapist. I travel a bit for work but when out of town I don't feel lonely....actually feel better than being at home?? I have tried to step back the last year and be my own man....my own person. She doesn't like that either....says I act weird. I really try not to rely on her for anything anymore. Not sure if this is correct approach or not. Thoughts?


You sound almost like a trophy husband.


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## Adelais

Spartan01 said:


> She never initiates....ever. This always made me feel unwanted in a sense if you can understand?
> 
> When you used to initiate, did she get interested and enjoy you and her herself? If the answer is yes, then she probably has responsive desire. Many women (more than men) have responsive desire. It means they don't go around thinking about sex all day, or at all. Their body and mind will turn on only when they are in a sexual situation...even then it can take a little while for them to get into it.
> 
> I had not heard about responsive desire until reading on TAM. There are many men on this site who refuse to accept it and who moan and groan, and threaten divorce if it doesn't change. There are others who understand it, deal with it and who are glad their wives can get aroused eventually.
> 
> If your wife has responsive desire, would you rather divorce her over it or love her and know that you are going to have to initiate, because her brain and hormones aren't wired the way yours are.
> 
> 
> Your codependent discussion I am not discounting....it warrants a further look into which I will discuss with my therapist. I travel a bit for work but when out of town I don't feel lonely....actually feel better than being at home?? I have tried to step back the last year and be my own man....my own person. She doesn't like that either....says I act weird. I really try not to rely on her for anything anymore. Not sure if this is correct approach or not. Thoughts?
> 
> If you are happy alone when you travel, then it seems like you will be able to be content if divorced, at least initially. You will feel loss over many things anyway, but not the presence of your wife.
> 
> However, you probably aren't on out of town jobs for months at a time, so eventually you might become lonely and want another human being to share your life with.


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## farsidejunky

You are compromising your intrinsic boundaries out of fear. This leads you to resent yourself for not acting when you know you should, and then project that anger at yourself upon your wife.

You know what is stunning in this situation? One of you is being authentic...and it isn't you.

I am not advocating that you should necessarily divorce, though it may end up that way. 

I live my life by two sayings:

Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.

Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. 

You are doing neither. 

What I am advocating is as follows:

Stop everything nice you do for your wife. EVERYTHING.

No kisses, hugs, foot rubs, massages...nothing for her. When she wants to talk about her day, hold up your hand and say, "No thank you. I don't feel like listening tonight."

Then go do something you want. 

Make her the absolute lowest priority person in your life. This is why you hate yourself for tolerating this situation.

Stop allowing her to be comfortable in your discomfort.


Spartan01 said:


> So what are you trying to tell me? Give it to me straight.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Diana7

I know a man who says that his wife never initiates but once they have sex its fine. If she is wiling to have sex once you start things then start it. 
You must sit down and tell her that you just cant go on like this and that if nothing changes soon, you are seriously thinking
of ending the marriage. Don't do anything drastic until you have told her what you are thinking of, and giving her the time to think
and act, otherwise its just not fair. I would also say that you want marriage counselling as part of you agreeing to work on things. 

Personally my thoughts are that you have made promises and you have children and responsibilities, so you cant just drop this bomb onto their lives. Don't think for a second that the older ones wont be affected, they will. They will be devastated. I would always put my children first in this sort of situation. Leaving wouldnt be an option for this, but many here will advise divorce for anything no matter what it is no matter the awful effects. 
If you want a close friend then get out there and make male friends.


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## personofinterest

"Leaving wouldnt be an option for this, but many here will advise divorce for anything no matter what it is no matter the awful effects. "

What an arrogant, self'rightrous statement.


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## skerzoid

Spartan01:

1. Sit her down with no distractions.

2. Ask her one more time, "Are you sure you want a sexless marriage?"

3. Have divorce papers ready. 

4. Watch her reaction. Do not do this as a threat. Carry it out if she refuses.

5. Stop being afraid. You have allowed this to become a sexless marriage. Either put up or shut up and be miserable for the rest of your life. There are plenty of women who will treasure you. Get on with it.


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## Taxman

Although she discounts therapy, a third, neutral party involved in discussions can offer different strategies for coping, encouraging intimacy, or counselling toward dissolution. From my standpoint, you appear to be missing and desiring intimacy at all levels with your wife, and she seems unwilling to provide intimacy at any level. That in itself strikes me as odd. I am in no way a therapist, just an observer in about few divorces over the last decade and a half. Even in many sexless marriages that I am aware of, there is emotional intimacy, to some level. I think it is time for some exploration as to where this relationship really is. Is your wife prone to any emotional displays. Normal shows of affection? How was she before marriage? Kids? Is she menopausal? Before blowing things up, you owe it to yourself and her to discuss this fully. I think therapy should be re-examined. Even from the standpoint of a referee, if you will.


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## SunCMars

Spartan01 said:


> Drywall pattern in the ceiling.....LOL



Counting flowers on the wall!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bg1di8sGxWc


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## Emerging Buddhist

Spartan01 said:


> She never initiates....ever. This always made me feel unwanted in a sense if you can understand?
> Your codependent discussion I am not discounting....it warrants a further look into which I will discuss with my therapist. I travel a bit for work but when out of town I don't feel lonely....actually feel better than being at home?? I have tried to step back the last year and be my own man....my own person. She doesn't like that either....says I act weird. I really try not to rely on her for anything anymore. Not sure if this is correct approach or not. Thoughts?


You seem to be struggling with an abundance of issues here, you really need to narrow your focus... sort out the realistic needs from the chaff.

Far is right with the self-resentment... easy to say "just stop it", hard to do when you keep doing the same thing the same way. Every time she doesn't like something you present as you, you end up fighting to be you... sounds like a bit of control to me, I learned that as you scratch the surface one really has little idea how deep this can run in the relationship.

You have to be prepared for some marital isolation if you are going to get past worrying about the "repercussion" of being yourself... it will not be liked and that is ok.

What you are doing is attaining true clarity of where your relationship lies... be prepared for the truth if you ask for it and while it will hurt like hell as you begin the path to accept it, it is better than living a marital lie.

Kindness is not an act of codependency...it is an act of loving yourself more. I think you are more codependent on your reactions with her than on her, you have only addressed things in the wrong patterns and haven't taken the time to properly assess the cost to you.

Learn to breathe and calm yourself now because when you do realize the cost, it will shock you.

I am going to quote myself as I began my closure of a similar journey in a thread of mine a year ago:

"I've learned resentment is a seed that only sprouts when it gets planted and takes hold. Let the seeds of anger and resentment pass through like the wind and you have a weed-free garden in your heart and your mind. They laughed and said "easier said than done", and they are right, it is easier said than done without practice... but that is why we practice, so it is easier done than said."

Treat her with the same kindness as you would anyone because when she becomes angry at you being you (mindfully considerate, not being retaliatory or tit-for-tat with anything) remember she is still the mother of your children and for the present your wife and deserves the respect regardless of how things are closed off because you have many other eyes who are learning from you.

The gift of absence to those who do not appreciate your presence may not make much of a difference to those who really do not care if you are there of not... in time these truths will rise to the surface.

Those who see your inner mettle will notice...

Especially those who value your friendship and love you for who you are.


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## personofinterest

"Treat her with the same kindness as you would anyone because when she becomes angry at you being you (mindfully considerate, not being retaliatory or tit-for-tat with anything) remember she is still the mother of your children and for the present your wife and deserves the respect regardless of how things are closed off because you have many other eyes who are learning from you"

Truth

Those of weaker character forget that last part.....or they just don't care


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## Emerging Buddhist

Spartan01 said:


> Children 20, 17, 13......I have thought about this a lot. It all goes back to the alone part....I want a best friend. Afraid I will never find one.


My friend... she is out there if you choose that path of truly healing in motion.

Allow your wife the chance to work on it or close it with you... many do not.

No better time to start than now.

No fear.


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## Spartan01

.


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## Spartan01

sunsetmist said:


> Yes, lots of time. I'm feeling that your resentment is growing. Surely there are other losses. Is there tension at all or are you a 'grin and take it' kind of guy? The danger is falling for someone who wants all of you--divorce before infidelity.


I am not an angry person - nor do I like yelling. In fact I hate confrontation especially heated discussions. I don't hate her at all....disappointed I am at this point in my life but I think she a nice person but probably not meant for me.


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## Spartan01

farsidejunky said:


> You are compromising your intrinsic boundaries out of fear. This leads you to resent yourself for not acting when you know you should, and then project that anger at yourself upon your wife.
> 
> You know what is stunning in this situation? One of you is being authentic...and it isn't you.
> 
> I am not advocating that you should necessarily divorce, though it may end up that way.
> 
> I live my life by two sayings:
> 
> Never make someone a priority when all you are to them is an option.
> 
> Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable.
> 
> You are doing neither.
> 
> What I am advocating is as follows:
> 
> Stop everything nice you do for your wife. EVERYTHING.
> 
> No kisses, hugs, foot rubs, massages...nothing for her. When she wants to talk about her day, hold up your hand and say, "No thank you. I don't feel like listening tonight."
> 
> Then go do something you want.
> 
> Make her the absolute lowest priority person in your life. This is why you hate yourself for tolerating this situation.
> 
> Stop allowing her to be comfortable in your discomfort.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Very interesting that you point out the authentic point. This is where I am at....I can never be myself - ever. She has told me this very same thing and I cant around her...I am living lies on a daily basis.


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## Spartan01

"When you used to initiate, did she get interested and enjoy you and her herself? If the answer is yes, then she probably has responsive desire. Many women (more than men) have responsive desire. It means they don't go around thinking about sex all day, or at all. Their body and mind will turn on only when they are in a sexual situation...even then it can take a little while for them to get into it."

Again - not her thing I don't believe...I have caught her yawning in the process. Doesn't make you feel very wanted. 
She has never had the big O and does not believe in masturbation. Not saying right or wrong.....just saying.


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## sunsetmist

Wondering if she was raised in a strict religious background? Sad that she has not had an orgasm--for both of you. Guess a Hitachi wand is out of the question? 

You want more than a best friend. You want to be valued for your authentic self. You want intimacy and connection--sharing and open caring? 

Your actions set an example--a model--for your kids. What kind of marriages do you want them to seek?


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## sunsetmist

There are meds that interfere with libido, but it sounds like she has been somewhat uninterested in sex all of your marriage?


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## BluesPower

sunsetmist said:


> There are meds that interfere with libido, but it sounds like she has been somewhat uninterested in sex all of your marriage?


The real question is... Why have you tolerated this of what 20 something years? 

I mean even at the beginning she TOLD you it was not her thing. SHE DOES LIKE SEX. And she certainly DOES NOT WANT SEX WITH YOU? 

You have to ask yourself why in the world you would deal with this at all, much less 20 Years. 

All the fear that you have is unwarranted. You are probably a decent looking guy, have a job, a few bucks. 

So you need to let that go. But you need to stop wasting time. File for divorce, she will not change. 

If you want a real relationship, you will not have it with her. 

Time to move on and stop wasting your life...


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## Marc878

You could analyze this for years and you'll get the same result. Zero intimacy.

You either live with it or not. The only one keeping you there is you.

Everything else is pretty much bull****.


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## Diana7

personofinterest said:


> "Leaving wouldnt be an option for this, but many here will advise divorce for anything no matter what it is no matter the awful effects. "
> 
> What an arrogant, self'rightrous statement.


Not sure what you are reading on this forum, but some posters will advise a divorce for more or less anything. I think its sad, especially when there are children who will suffer badly. I see divorce as for cheating, serious abuse and the like.


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## Diana7

Threats will never work on anyone, nor will threatening divorce, however, sitting down and calmly telling her how deeply unhappy you are and that you are not sure if you can live this way any more, may make her think. 
Mind you if she has never had an orgasm, its sort of easy to see why she may get bored of it. Have you tried a vibrator?


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## Spartan01

Diana7 said:


> Threats will never work on anyone, nor will threatening divorce, however, sitting down and calmly telling her how deeply unhappy you are and that you are not sure if you can live this way any more, may make her think.
> 
> Mind you if she has never had an orgasm, its sort of easy to see why she may get bored of it. Have you tried a vibrator?




Yes. I’ve tried - she has never felt comfortable with any of that including lingerie. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Spartan01

Diana7 said:


> Not sure what you are reading on this forum, but some posters will advise a divorce for more or less anything. I think its sad, especially when there are children who will suffer badly. I see divorce as for cheating, serious abuse and the like.




Don’t worry I’m trying to go thru this with an open mind. My kids are important however I am concerned that they will pick this up just the same if we were an abusive yelling couple. They will not see love in a relationship if their parents never show it. 


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## red oak

Emerging Buddhist said:


> You seem to be struggling with an abundance of issues here, you really need to narrow your focus... sort out the realistic needs from the chaff.
> 
> Far is right with the self-resentment... easy to say "just stop it", hard to do when you keep doing the same thing the same way. Every time she doesn't like something you present as you, you end up fighting to be you... sounds like a bit of control to me, I learned that as you scratch the surface one really has little idea how deep this can run in the relationship.
> 
> You have to be prepared for some marital isolation if you are going to get past worrying about the "repercussion" of being yourself... it will not be liked and that is ok.
> 
> What you are doing is attaining true clarity of where your relationship lies... be prepared for the truth if you ask for it and while it will hurt like hell as you begin the path to accept it, it is better than living a marital lie.
> 
> Kindness is not an act of codependency...it is an act of loving yourself more. I think you are more codependent on your reactions with her than on her, you have only addressed things in the wrong patterns and haven't taken the time to properly assess the cost to you.
> 
> Learn to breathe and calm yourself now because when you do realize the cost, it will shock you.
> 
> I am going to quote myself as I began my closure of a similar journey in a thread of mine a year ago:
> 
> "I've learned resentment is a seed that only sprouts when it gets planted and takes hold. Let the seeds of anger and resentment pass through like the wind and you have a weed-free garden in your heart and your mind. They laughed and said "easier said than done", and they are right, it is easier said than done without practice... but that is why we practice, so it is easier done than said."
> 
> Treat her with the same kindness as you would anyone because when she becomes angry at you being you (mindfully considerate, not being retaliatory or tit-for-tat with anything) remember she is still the mother of your children and for the present your wife and deserves the respect regardless of how things are closed off because you have many other eyes who are learning from you.
> 
> The gift of absence to those who do not appreciate your presence may not make much of a difference to those who really do not care if you are there of not... in time these truths will rise to the surface.
> 
> Those who see your inner mettle will notice...
> 
> Especially those who value your friendship and love you for who you are.


:iagree:


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## red oak

Spartan01 said:


> Me -48 W-46 Married 22 years - 3 kids.
> 
> Marriage has been a struggle since inception.....esp on sexual side of things.  I have always told her that if I didn't initiate it wouldn't happen...she would make this excuse and that excuse. She always excused me of "that's all you think about type of thing" - then I began to feel guilty about it. Like - well maybe she is right??? So last the last time we had sex I lay there in bed thinking why did I just do that....im having sex with someone who doesn't really want it. So I drew a line and started an experiment of not initiating or trying anything involving intimacy with her. That was last November...it is now my 1-year anniversary of "no sexual contact" with her.
> 
> My question to all of you......Do I mourn the loss of a marriage and move on? or mourn the loss of never feeling intimate with anyone ever again?


I have been there to a large degree. 
To me we never really had a marriage per se' so their wasn't much to mourn.
Once the kids were gone I asked myself: "Can I have a life together with this woman?" I gave many opportunities. Tried to get her help, and to help her. I gave up. The answer was no for me! 

That is something only you can decide.

Edit: I actually decided I had enough after years of chances and warnings instead of giving up.


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## sokillme

I don't think if you divorce your children will suffer badly. They will suffer but they will recover and go on to live their lives as is their right, as your life is your right. You have a responsibility to raise your children, protect and help them develop into adulthood but after that your responsibility ends. You are not responsible to make every decision about your own happiness with their happiness being the primary motivation. 

Half the kids alive today, hell half the adults probably are children of divorce. We all survived. The fact is how much of your parents lives when you are adult really affect you anymore? How much time do YOU think of your parents marriage, be it successful or not do you suffer daily because of that? To act like you getting a divorce is somehow doing to do long lasting damage to them is just hyperbole. Will they be sad? Sure, lots of life is sad. Trust me they will get used to it. Things in life end. 

I think if you do divorce it's important that you do it honorably. I think bad divorce makes it worse. Which leads to a point. What are you going to do when you meet this best friend you are searching for? Are you going to cheat on your wife? I submit to you that THAT is much worse and then there will be much suffering and the possibility of a healthy future with that women will no longer be possible at least one that is built on honor. How will you kids look at her then? Is it a risk, is it possible you may never find her? Sure. All of life is a risk, nothing truly good in life comes without risk. 

You live in a sexless marriage. Worse you wife see no need for sex in your marriage. That's wrong. In my estimation you don't have a marriage you have a platonic friendship. This my friend is not a marriage. You might even make this point. Tell her you want to divorce and you can remain friends as that is what you have now. You don't have to live and support each other if you are friends though. You don't say but are you religious? Is that why you are so against divorce? If so I think there are some things you can do.

The statement that "all you care about is sex" is frankly misandrists. It shows a great disregard and even no understanding of men's nature. It also show a disregard to all the women out there who love sex and also think it is a vital part of relationships. It also implies that there is something wrong with a husband desiring his wife, which is a perverse way of thinking. Nothing could be more natural and wonderful then that, that is what men and women are supposed to feel about eachother. Nope it's your wife who is in the wrong with that statement. I would not put up with it if I were you. Your wife doesn't understand or worse doesn't care to understand how you feel. That is not good. It's the same kind of pattern that husbands fall into though about different things, that causes walk away wife syndrome. It's a callous rejection of a very vital part of their spouses nature and the nature of marriage. Your wife really needs to understand this. That being said, lots of women are going to need emotional intimacy to want to have sex with their spouse. If you have neglected that this may be where this statement comes from. 

The thing that is most striking to me about this whole post though is you don't tell your wife any of this. So you don't give her any agency in her own life. In doing so you are not being a good spouse. Is it any wonder your marriage and both your lives are stuck. Is it going to be painful to deal with this stuff? Sure. Is it possible it may kill whatever it is your relationship is? Sure. If you continue with what you are doing will anything change? Nope. She is not going to have an epiphany, you know this. She is quite content to live this way. 

The truth is there are any number of reasons your wife is the way she is. It's quite possible she is not attracted to you. It's possible she has some sort of sexual dysfunction possible from past history. It's possible she is very down on herself and her body. It's possible that the way you have treated her in the past has made her feel just like she said, like her only value to you is her body. Finally and I hate to say this but it needs to be said. I have read enough of these stories to now that it is also possible that she has had or is having an affair. Lots of times that is what it is. Are you sure you know your wife as well as you think you do?

Which leads to my next point, even if what your wife tells you is true and she doesn't have desire for sex, that doesn't mean it will stay that way forever. The truth usually is that it's not that they don't want to have sex it's that they don't want to have sex with you. Your wife is human, someone could come and temp her and bring up feeling is her that she hasn't felt in a long time. Again there have been more then one story posted on these sites like this. The point being you are unwise to assume you can just stay in your situation and are safe. In my mind your situation is unsustainable, sooner or later the dam is going to brake. You may get lucky and play out the clock but it's just as likely that you, or YES even her could meet someone who turns that part of you on that has been dormant for so long. Then everyone including your kids are going to suffer. 

The point is unless you deal with this stuff nothing is going to change and it's a waste even to post. You have to have courage. That's the thing, your biggest problem is not you wife not having sex with you, your biggest problem is you are afraid. I submit that this may even be an unconscious reason why your wife has no desire for you. Woman don't like passive men. Women want strength and assertiveness. Also how have you approach her about having sex with her? Was it this kind of wishy-washy begging? Or did you seduce her, flirt with her, woo her? Again to do that takes courage. You have to get over YOUR fear of being rejected. It could very easily be that you are half the problem. 

Again you need to deal with this, confront your wife. Demand marriage counseling, and if necessary bring up divorce. The bottom line in all this post though is that you need to deal with your fear first before anything is going to change for you.


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## personofinterest

Spartan01 said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you are reading on this forum, but some posters will advise a divorce for more or less anything. I think its sad, especially when there are children who will suffer badly. I see divorce as for cheating, serious abuse and the like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t worry I’m trying to go thru this with an open mind. My kids are important however I am concerned that they will pick this up just the same if we were an abusive yelling couple. They will not see love in a relationship if their parents never show it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

 OP, I stayed in a sexless marriage devoid of intimacy for 2 decades. The result is that neither of my kids ever want to get married. They see it as pointless. I still have scars and triggers from the years of constant rejection and feeling completely invisible. Anyone who doesn't understand how years with a no intimacy can in fact be serious abuse needs to get off their high horse and practice some empathy.


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## Adelais

OP, are you an your wife Jewish or Christian? Is her unawareness of her body due to unbiblical teachings she received growing up?

I honestly can't fathom that a woman (or man) would not know their own body. Most teens discover their bodies and pleasure themselves regularly. I had never seen porn, but really looked forward to being married because I knew how good sex was with myself, (hehe) and knew it had to be alot better with a man.

If you are Jewish or Christian, I'd suggest you buy a book called The Gift of Sex, and also read the book the Song of Solomon together. It describes a husband's deep sexual desire for his wife and her desire for him. It is beautiful. You have to understand the symbolism though...lol. Have some gel and tissues by the bedside while you read it, because you're going to need them.


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## arbitrator

Spartan01 said:


> Maybe a month or so ago I asked her if she knew the last time we had had sex....surprisingly she knew the answer. *Therapy is a no go - she doesn't believe in it. Says its a waste of time.*


*She's saying that primarily because she's fearfully aversive to sex, is cold or blind to your feelings/hormones, and just doesn't prefer to be found out about it!*


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## aine

Spartan01 said:


> So what are you trying to tell me? Give it to me straight.


I think you have to tell your wife straight up. Tell her without sex in your marraige, you do not have a marriage and if she is not welling to see a sex therapist or help the situation then you see no point in staying in the marriage. Give her a week to mull over what you have said.


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## Chaparral

Spartan01 said:


> Maybe a month or so ago I asked her if she knew the last time we had had sex....surprisingly she knew the answer. Therapy is a no go - she doesn't believe in it. Says its a waste of time.


When they find out it’s counseling or divorce, many have a change of heart over counseling. Would you say your sex life used to be much better at some point or it’s never been good?


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## Spartan01

We are both Christian and personally believe she is ASexual. I truly believe she has never had sex with herself. Lingerie, toys, lube out of the question- it’s not going to happen. I’ve tried. I am to the point that if she did find someone else I would be happy for her - I’ve made my peace with it. I would have no resentment - it’s not me with the problem. I truly believe that. Do I want a divorce - no. No one does but I’ve gotten to the point I don’t even care to touch her anymore. I really don’t. What’s funny is I used to really be into her and doing it with her - no more. I still in my mind find it a bit mind boggling and that’s why I’m here. To discuss with you. 


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## Herschel

This is my viewpoint, take it as you may.

First, a spouse that is dead in the bed. There is a reason. There is always a reason. Maybe she cant stand you. More likely, she can’t stand herself. People hate oiving with cognitive dissonance. There could be a chance she cheated on you years ago, hated herself for it, made herself feel that sex wasn’t needed and now here you are.

Second, who cares about “first”. Here you are. This is a miserable life. Lying in bed and wondering why your spouse doesn’t want you. Why would you ever try to fix them. They never fixed themselves. They know how important Sex is. **** them for not trying to fix things.

Third, there is so much good sex to be had out there. Doesn’t even have to be emotionless sex. There are girlfriends, women who want and yearn for a good guy. And they are really horny too. 

Forth, anyone can be a roommate. Intimacy is what makes you a couple. Physical, emotional and intellectual. You need it all and if someone is refusing, gtfo.

Lastly, the kids. Well, I am a firm believer that kids learn from their parents. You are teaching your kids to remain unhappy in their one chance on this planet to teach their kids to be unhappy. Life is meant to be lived. Kids will suffer more in the long run learning from you NOT trying to live your life how it should be lived.


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## sunsetmist

Herschel said:


> This is my viewpoint, take it as you may.
> 
> First, a spouse that is dead in the bed. There is a reason. There is always a reason. Maybe she cant stand you. More likely, she can’t stand herself. People hate oiving with cognitive dissonance. There could be a chance she cheated on you years ago, hated herself for it, made herself feel that sex wasn’t needed and now here you are.
> 
> Second, who cares about “first”. Here you are. This is a miserable life. Lying in bed and wondering why your spouse doesn’t want you. Why would you ever try to fix them. They never fixed themselves. They know how important Sex is. **** them for not trying to fix things.
> 
> Third, there is so much good sex to be had out there. Doesn’t even have to be emotionless sex. There are girlfriends, women who want and yearn for a good guy. And they are really horny too.
> 
> Forth, anyone can be a roommate. Intimacy is what makes you a couple. Physical, emotional and intellectual. You need it all and if someone is refusing, gtfo.
> 
> Lastly, the kids. Well, I am a firm believer that kids learn from their parents. You are teaching your kids to remain unhappy in their one chance on this planet to teach their kids to be unhappy. Life is meant to be lived. Kids will suffer more in the long run learning from you NOT trying to live your life how it should be lived.


I applaud @Herschel s points. Your brain is tired of trying, there is a void in your life and your heart is crying 'help.' Intimacy and connection are impossible without sex. I'd have a 'Come to Jesus meeting.' Say what you need--honestly and be prepared to take action. You don't want to be in a similar place in 5 or 10 years.


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## sokillme

Spartan01 said:


> We are both Christian and personally believe she is ASexual. I truly believe she has never had sex with herself. Lingerie, toys, lube out of the question- it’s not going to happen. I’ve tried. I am to the point that if she did find someone else I would be happy for her - I’ve made my peace with it. I would have no resentment - it’s not me with the problem. I truly believe that. Do I want a divorce - no. No one does but I’ve gotten to the point I don’t even care to touch her anymore. I really don’t. What’s funny is I used to really be into her and doing it with her - no more. I still in my mind find it a bit mind boggling and that’s why I’m here. To discuss with you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you go to your church? Talk to your Pastor. Your wife clearly is in sin. I think I pointed that out in my last post. Besides that this is not what God wants your relationship to be. I personally don't believe in asexuality except if a very small, like finite part of the population and even then I suspect this is from some type of damage or defect. Are there people who are born blind or deaf, sure. This is still not optimal and I believe the same can be said for asexuality. I get it there are deaf who don't want the cochlear implants, but then they have never heard music. 

So your wife is in sin and I gave you what I think is the biblical way that you could at least force some change in my last post. But I get it, that may just be too hardcore a way to go for you. Besides maybe this isn't neglect or malice but damage and hurt. Here is the thing she may very well just be lazy and selfish, plenty of spouses are. So the advice I am giving below may be a waste of time or worse may just add to your pain but the truth is, you know her better then we do. You seem to believe that she is not a bad spouse. I am also trusting that if she really is a Christian she believe there are things more important then herself, that includes safety or indulgence. He is able to have an open heart. 

So I have to ask you, how close are you to your wife? Emotionally close? Does she tell you about her feelings? Does she feel emotionally safe with you? I don't mean "I had a hard day today", I mean "I wonder if I am a good mother", "I feel fat and useless" kind of feelings. Is she emotionally vulnerable with you. If not then you need to figure out why not and how you can change this. You need to embrace this as your role. Yes your role as her husband is to be an emotional provider for her. Which means you are responsible for being just as emotionally intelligent as she is and working at it. To put this a modern way, there are no frat-boys in the bible. At least not ones who are not looked down on. Us men are just as capable of being in touch with our feelings as women. You may get all this but lots of men don't and it causes their wives to lose respect for them. 

If and when she is able to be vulnerable then I would start talking about this. Two things you need to figure out, what is the real reason she doesn't want to have sex, is it a past situation. Was there a sexual issue in her past, rape, something she might of done that she is ashamed of. Does she feel unattractive? Is she really attracted to you? Have you asked her these types of questions? You should, calmly though, even if the answers are painful. These are all a possibility. 

The second is you have to be vulnerable enough that she trusts you when you tell her that you NEED to have sex with her not to have an orgasm and feel good (Though that is great), but to help you emotionally connect with her. That it is NOT the same for her as it is for you. Just like she needs for you to emotionally connect with her YOU need to physically connect with her. A place to start is just straight up ask her why she thinks you always want to have sex with her? If her response is essentially "to get off", ask her are there other things in your life were you treat people in your family like that. (God help you if you do.) Where you just use them selfishly? If she says no then ask her why she is so quick to think in this case you are? Now she may have some good answers and you may need to deal with that. The point is you need to change the dialog around your want and desire to have sex with her. Again vulnerability, entreat her, but also you have to be in an emotionally safe place. So if there are outstanding hurts you need to fix them first. 

A point to clarify, many many people confuse vulnerability with weakness, this is not the same thing. Vulnerability is "I am strong enough to show you were I am hurting". That doesn't mean being weak and not calling your spouse on their ****. Everyone has **** and you have to stand up for yourself, that is actually attractive. Not sure why people don't get that. No one likes a pushover.

That's the other thing that I think many guys get wrong. Lots and lots of women have to feel emotionally safe and connected with their husbands to want to have sex with them. That means that you can't treat sex like cooking dinner. You need to first be vulnerable and let her be vulnerable. Even after all that you also have to be sexy. Women are just like men in this way it's just that sexy is kind of different. You have to flirt and court her, you should know how to do that you married her right? There are plenty of books to help you do that if you are not. Married man's sex primer is one. Are you in shape? How do you dress. From what I can tell the stereotypical things that we think about men most women like, even the most liberated. Do you get **** done around the house. Do you take charge of chaotic situations or does she have to do the leading all the time? 

There is a blog you can have her read that is a very good Christian Blog from a wife who was gate keeping her husband.

https://forgivenwife.com/

You should read it and also see if your wife will. This women is very good in getting to the heart of men and women. Though from my perspective as a man I think her husband could do more too. I think this whole, I don't know how to be romantic and talk about my feelings line that men give is bull****. Step it up, learn how to be. Which is my final point. This is probably not all on your wife if you really want to change this then you are probably going to have to change. F'n read books, ask questions learn about this stuff. Attack the problem like a man does. If you are not there yet make yourself the kind of man that your wife desires. Even if you can't it will make you more desirable for the next one. 

You may have or you may now do all those things and even still, if she is just be a selfish broken jerk, it won't work and you should divorce her. Lots of people are and you can only control you.


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## sunsetmist

@sokillme's advice in the prior post is one of the best I've ever read! He is most always good, but this is so genuine and on point. Listen to a master when he speaks. Many could benefit from this advice

(There has been no remuneration for this plug. grin)


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## wilson

Realistically, the best possible outcome in the relationship is that she agrees to duty sex and tries to make the best of it. Likely, it will always be like a chore to her that she does the minimum to keep the peace. It's very unlikely that you can get to a point where she enjoys sex like you want her to. You may eventually be able to impress upon her that sex is a requirement marriage, but it will be like the same way she might know that the bathroom needs to be cleaned once a week. It likely won't be something she enjoys in and of itself.

Divorce is likely the best outcome for you, unfortunately. But if you go down that path, try to do it in a responsible way. No matter how you feel about this matter, this is part of the person you married. Yes, it's a pretty big fault, but part of being married is understanding there will be rough times. Even if you can't work past this, it doesn't mean that you have drop a bomb and create massive destruction. Consider how to minimize the effect on your kids. Is your 13-year-old a girl? If so, consider her emotional state. Divorce can have a destructive emotional effect on tweens. If you think she's at risk for destructive behaviors, you'll need to get in front of any issues.

One thing you can ask her is why she doesn't put any effort to addressing this issue. While it can be understandable that someone wouldn't want sex, it's less understandable that they won't make the effort to do anything about it. You can tell her that you're thinking of divorce more because she doesn't seem to care to address the problem rather than she doesn't want sex. Even if she doesn't feel the need, she can still read books, go to therapy, etc. to work on ways to create that desire so she does want it. I bet you'd feel differently if she had a stack of self-help books on her nightstand that she was reading to try to make things better.


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## personofinterest

> Forth, anyone can be a roommate. Intimacy is what makes you a couple. Physical, emotional and intellectual.


Truth. Irrefutable truth.


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