# Wife’s best friend is coming to stay with us for a week...



## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

My wife’s best friend “Lucy” who she has known for 30 years is coming to stay with us for a week (celebration of my wife’s birthday and all of us being fully vaccinated). Since we live on opposite coasts we do not see each other much. Lucy, like my wife, is very attractive and ever since she (and her now ex-husband) started swinging a few years ago, banter between my wife and I regarding Lucy has been very heated. My wife playfully shares tales of Lucy’s exploits and she knows this drives me crazy. She has said that I can sleep with Lucy - my wife is, to say the least, not a jealous type - but this has only been ‘talk’ and we do not have an open marriage. Lucy only knows that I look forward to flirting with her and I do not communicate much with her directly (only when we are doing things for my wife). Should I try to pursue this or is it better left a fantasy than a reality?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

What starts with Lucy will lead to some Larry touching your wife's private parts..


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What led to Lucy and her husband getting a divorce after they started swinging?

The fact that this question was asked should tell you something.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> What starts with Lucy will lead to some Larry touching your wife's private parts..


Yes - always a risk - we run a restaurant/bar and my wife gets hit on nightly. She knows what she wants and what she will tolerate and is very open with me. If there was someone in our life who she wanted to sleep with we can explore than. She has not had any interest. Lucy is a special case of someone she trusts and has her loyalties with her. I think my wife would agree any 'Larry' would need to be trusted by me. We are not looking to wreak our marriage.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

wingman said:


> My wife’s best friend “Lucy” who she has known for 30 years is coming to stay with us for a week (celebration of my wife’s birthday and all of us being fully vaccinated). Since we live on opposite coasts we do not see each other much. Lucy, like my wife, is very attractive and ever since she (and her now ex-husband) started swinging a few years ago, banter between my wife and I regarding Lucy has been very heated. My wife playfully shares tales of Lucy’s exploits and she knows this drives me crazy. She has said that I can sleep with Lucy - my wife is, to say the least, not a jealous type - but this has only been ‘talk’ and we do not have an open marriage. Lucy only knows that I look forward to flirting with her and I do not communicate much with her directly (only when we are doing things for my wife). Should I try to pursue this or is it better left a fantasy than a reality?


An old gf of mine thought this would be a good idea with one of her friends....until it started to go down. I'd be very guarded against this as it tends to open a pandoras box of sorts.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Your wife said you could sleep with Lucy...alone or as a threesome?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Threesome time! You lucky dawg!


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> What led to Lucy and her husband getting a divorce after they started swinging?
> 
> The fact that this question was asked should tell you something.


Fair question. They started swinging at a time when their marriage and sex life were on the rocks - for a while it looked like a savior, but Lucy finally wanted out. Early on they pushed us to try - the husband worked on me and Lucy on my wife - we were interested in exploring it cautiously - like attending a swingers party (rather than focusing on one couple) - but we could not find a proper venue - we live on opposite coasts so the communities are not the same. Then we opened up our restaurant and no longer had any time or energy to consider exploring. We have had our problems as any marriage does, but we both would say our sex life is great and we have successfully worked through many challenging family and health issues (we are in our 50s and have children from our previous marriages).


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Your wife said you could sleep with Lucy...alone or as a threesome?


I am guessing "neither" but if thats the way he is thinking.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> Your wife said you could sleep with Lucy...alone or as a threesome?


Alone - my wife is not into sex with women or threesomes.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

wingman said:


> Fair question. They started swinging at a time when their marriage and sex life were on the rocks - for a while it looked like a savior, but Lucy finally wanted out. Early on they pushed us to try - the husband worked on me and Lucy on my wife - we were interested in exploring it cautiously - like attending a swingers party (rather than focusing on one couple) - but we could not find a proper venue - we live on opposite coasts so the communities are not the same. Then we opened up our restaurant and no longer had any time or energy to consider exploring. We have had our problems as any marriage does, but we both would say our sex life is great and we have successfully worked through many challenging family and health issues (we are in our 50s and have children from our previous marriages).


Dude, you put prioritites on a restaurant as opposed to hot and crazy wild sex? What the????

Naaa, jusrt messing with you. If you guys are already swingers, her firend visiting just seems like another potential opportunity.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It’s a bad idea.....end of story

Keep in mind everyone thinks “but our circumstances are different”

No they aren’t..... and the end result will be the same


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Have fun. What could possibly go wrong?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Alone - my wife is not into sex with women or threesomes.


Wow...that’s a nice wife you have there. 😉
I can’t imagine...


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Have fun. What could possibly go wrong?


😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂...gasp...😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> Wow...that’s a nice wife you have there. 😉
> I can’t imagine...


Thanks - she is a one-of-a-kind and amazing. Keeps me young and on my toes. Met her late in life. Most beautiful and strong woman I have ever been with.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Thanks - she is a one-of-a-kind and amazing. Keeps me young and on my toes. Met her late in life. Most beautiful and strong woman I have ever been with.


That’s wonderful! I assume from what you stated you will in return allow her to sleep with another when the time arises?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> It’s a bad idea.....end of story
> 
> Keep in mind everyone thinks “but our circumstances are different”
> 
> No they aren’t..... and the end result will be the same


Fair point. I guess we all want to be the exception - the lucky one. Glad folks are keeping things real. Thank you all for posting!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

wingman said:


> Alone - my wife is not into sex with women or threesomes.


Not yet!

You never know what is really in another person's head.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> That’s wonderful! I assume from what you stated you will in return allow her to sleep with another when the time arises?


Yes - if we both trust the person/couple and the circumstance. But with Lucy and any future "Larry", we both would respect the veto power of our mate at anytime if things got weird or uncomfortable. I know that even as my wife agrees to me sleeping with Lucy, I will give her (and Lucy) plenty of chances to restrict or stop anything going on - no questions asked. This happened when we were exploring swinging before - I had posted profiles and the initial inquiries seemed too sleazy for my wife and we ended all exploration. My wife knows this about me - I always want her to be comfortable.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Why risk a good relationship?

This may be your wife's poop test.

One, that you seem determined to fail...at.

For all you know, once you dip your toes, your wick, in another women, your wife's boundaries will be redrawn.

I would tell your wife that you love her too much, and that you will not risk your marriage over a little fun with Lucy.

Your wife will gain a lot more respect for you. And she will reward you with continuing loyalty.

Not a small thing, that.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Yes - if we both trust the person/couple and the circumstance. But with Lucy and any future "Larry", we both would respect the veto power of our mate at anytime if things got weird or uncomfortable. I know that even as my wife agrees to me sleeping with Lucy, I will give her (and Lucy) plenty of chances to restrict or stop anything going on - no questions asked. This happened when we were exploring swinging before - I had posted profiles and the initial inquiries seemed too sleazy for my wife and we ended all exploration. My wife knows this about me - I always want her to be comfortable.


You stated that there are no “Larry’s already in the picture correct? Will she, assuming you go forward, start looking?


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Oh, got it wrong by assuming it was going to be a threesome. I think I'd be less inclined if my wife wasn't involved.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

wingman said:


> Should I try to pursue this or is it better left a fantasy than a reality?


Well, that depends. Do you want to destroy your marriage and a 30 year friendship, all so you can try out a new *****? If so, carry on.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Your wife encouraging you to bang her friend smells her enticing you into a open marriage. Unless you’re some rock mega star, your wife will have men lining up to get a taste, while you would be lucky to pull a new girl once a month.

Sounds like fun until she clicks with one guy and he tells her post coitus, “ I would never share you”, bang. The beginning of the end because women want to feel treasured, which is hard to do when she’s being passed around like a garden tool.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Question.... would your wife lend this friend of hers the keys to her car to drive as she pleases while she visits, or will she have to get a rental? 

That is a pretty loaded question to see if your wife values her own car more than you!


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Why risk a good relationship?
> 
> This may be your wife's poop test.
> 
> ...


Fair enough - yes - this is not the first time she has said this - so yes I have been tested. In all the other cases it was with old GFs of mine and I could tell it was in jest. But Lucy is different because this is my wife's friend - not mine - and my wife controls the communication and has dropped hints that this is in the cards. For my wife, I believe she would only suggest this if she thought it was good for us and Lucy was likely game for it. Also, Lucy and my wife share everything and Lucy will share juicy stuff with my wife if she is intimate with me and I think my wife likes the thought of that. Lucy would also reject the whole thing if she thought my wife is not 100% on board with it on every level. This commitment is something that can only be fully explored and confirmed when we are all together in person. Even discussing ground rules (no unprotected sex, limits on kissing, no private contact afterwards, etc) would no doubt put a reality on this that would tease out if this is a true invitation or a poop test. Lastly, If I really wanted to push the idea of sex with others, I would not limit to it my wife's BFF who lives on the other coast and only comes every couple of years to our house. But I know Lucy is an exception and I respect that.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Question.... would your wife lend this friend of hers the keys to her car to drive as she pleases while she visits, or will she have to get a rental?
> 
> That is a pretty loaded question to see if your wife values her own car more than you!


Of course - but we are in the city - so no need for a car - plus my wife does not drive. She gives the clothes off her back to our friends - she would do anything for Lucy. Material things are not that important.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Alone - my wife is not into sex with women or threesomes.


This will set the stage for your W to do the same, sleep with another man.

However you want to word it, partner, that will happen.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Nevermind what Lucy, who's single says is ok. She is single. 

You're W may be indeed testing you, only you know. Make this decision with the head on your shoulders, not in your pants 🙂.

@maquiscat may have more to share.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

jsmart said:


> Your wife encouraging you to bang her friend smells her enticing you into a open marriage. Unless you’re some rock mega star, your wife will have men lining up to get a taste, while you would be lucky to pull a new girl once a month.
> 
> Sounds like fun until she clicks with one guy and he tells her post coitus, “ I would never share you”, bang. The beginning of the end because women want to feel treasured, which is hard to do when she’s being passed around like a garden tool.


Hmm..... your warning might ring true for someone younger or more in search of security, but at this stage in her life, my wife does not want to be controlled by anyone - she is not looking to be someone's possession. I am far from the wealthiest person she dated and she rejected many high powered BFs who wanted to control her. She is with me because she knows I love, trust and adore her, am committed to our life together and give her freedom to be herself. 

We are both in our 50s and have had sex with lots of people before we chose to commit and be with each other rather than be single. I give my wife coffee in bed every morning. I give her massages each night to help her fall asleep. I run 3 businesses with her (including a restaurant) that we built together. I am a stepfather to her son as she is to my daughter for the past 10 years. Sex is fun for us - we role play alot - and Lucy could be a way to make it real once as an experiment - it might work, it might not. It is likely a one time thing like lots of things we have done. 

Lots of guys hit on my wife - at the bar and on social media - I give her freedom and trust her. She so far is not interested. I am not offering her to anyone - she is in control - strong women want it that way. She is also in control with Lucy - she is calling the shots with Lucy. If it is a bad idea we will bale out.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

wingman said:


> If it is a bad idea we will bale out.


Problem is, you might not know it's a bad idea until it's too late. There is no undo button in life.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

I think the question you have to ask yourself is if YOU are ok with your wife with having sex with another man. That is where this is going without a doubt. If the answer is yes than have fun!


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

wingman said:


> Thanks - she is a one-of-a-kind and amazing. Keeps me young and on my toes. Met her late in life. Most beautiful and strong woman I have ever been with.


So don’t be stupid and screw things up. If you have sex with her friend, your wife is going to have a free pass with other men. If you are stupid enough to be ok with your wife having sex with other men, you will wind up divorced.
Why would you even want to sleep with this woman? I thought you said you liked your own wife, and she was beautiful and great in bed? 

you’re happy right now? Well you won’t be within days of screwing your wife’s friend. I can’t imagine why a person would want to sabotage themselves like this.
Do you thi k your wife will feel more or less valued by you if you have sex with her friend? Will she admire you more, or think less of you? What possible positives can this have?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

wingman said:


> Hmm..... your warning might ring true for someone younger or more in search of security, but at this stage in her life, my wife does not want to be controlled by anyone - she is not looking to be someone's possession. I am far from the wealthiest person she dated and she rejected many high powered BFs who wanted to control her. She is with me because she knows I love, trust and adore her, am committed to our life together and give her freedom to be herself.
> 
> We are both in our 50s and have had sex with lots of people before we chose to commit and be with each other rather than be single. I give my wife coffee in bed every morning. I give her massages each night to help her fall asleep. I run 3 businesses with her (including a restaurant) that we built together. I am a stepfather to her son as she is to my daughter for the past 10 years. Sex is fun for us - we role play alot - and Lucy could be a way to make it real once as an experiment - it might work, it might not. It is likely a one time thing like lots of things we have done.
> 
> Lots of guys hit on my wife - at the bar and on social media - I give her freedom and trust her. She so far is not interested. I am not offering her to anyone - she is in control - strong women want it that way. She is also in control with Lucy - she is calling the shots with Lucy. If it is a bad idea we will bale out.


You clearly have in your mind what you want to do, and are rationalizing why it’s a good idea and why all the warnings against it don’t apply to you.

For all your aforementioned experience, you don’t really seem to understand female nature or intersexual dynamics. Do what you want, just be advised it almost always ends badly and you are not so special and unique that you’re likely to be the exception.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Not sure how any temporary pleasure would be worth risking all that you have assuming everything else is good.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Nothing ventured, nothing gained! You do need to have a _very_ detailed discussion with your wife about this. It should include various scenarios of how this would work, how she really feels about it, what SHE may want for allowing this (and it may _truly_ be that she only wants you and her friend to enjoy yourselves, and has no ulterior motives), and how to handle any complications that _may_ result (e.g., agree in advance that if you do this, you will both let go of any jealousies, etc., afterwards). We've done similar things without any problems afterwards, and had a lot of fun.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

This sounds like a trap. If you already have a great marriage/sex life then there is zero need to mess that up by ****ing her best friend. I would just set that boundary now, so there is no "maybe" during the time she stays with you.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

wingman said:


> My wife’s best friend “Lucy” who she has known for 30 years is coming to stay with us for a week (celebration of my wife’s birthday and all of us being fully vaccinated). Since we live on opposite coasts we do not see each other much. Lucy, like my wife, is very attractive and ever since she (and her now ex-husband) started swinging a few years ago, banter between my wife and I regarding Lucy has been very heated. My wife playfully shares tales of Lucy’s exploits and she knows this drives me crazy. She has said that I can sleep with Lucy - my wife is, to say the least, not a jealous type - but this has only been ‘talk’ and we do not have an open marriage. Lucy only knows that I look forward to flirting with her and I do not communicate much with her directly (only when we are doing things for my wife). Should I try to pursue this or is it better left a fantasy than a reality?


Well you have heard from a lot of the nay sayers, although not all. I suspect a couple more will add in soon enough.

There are a few of us who practice Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM), and from what you write, you seem to be working within ethical bounds.

As the visit comes closer, I would get your wife to outright tell you if this is going to happen. Not so much as the actual encounter, since many things could put an end to it before it starts. Rather that she is indeed opening things up to at least this one woman. No hints, no allusions. Just a straight honest answer, just to get rid of ambiguity.

You seem to have a rock solid marriage, and that's good. ENM is never a fix to a failing relationship. Just make sure you know what is outside your wife's comfort zone, Lucy's comfort zone (from Lucy herself, not your wife), and they clearly know yours. 

Don't be afraid to not take advantage of the openness and availability this visit, if it doesn't feel right. Or to limit it to cuddling or whatever. If everything is on the up and up (which it seems to be) there is no rush. I realized visits are infrequent, but I doubt they'll be rare.

Also make sure you and your wife are prepared for any potential emotional attachments. They can happen. It could be a problem or it could evolve to poly. Even if the odds are small, don't dismiss the possibility.

I would honestly love to hear how this went after the fact. Obviously not physical details, but the overall just of it. Good luck, and feel free to PM if you have specific questions you don't want to ask in the thread.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> Well you have heard from a lot of the nay sayers, although not all. I suspect a couple more will add in soon enough.
> 
> There are a few of us who practice Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM), and from what you write, you seem to be working within ethical bounds.
> 
> ...


Thanks - I wanted to hear a range of views. Pro and con. Too easy to self-justify. I am not wedded to anything but being with my wife. I will report on what happens after the fact.


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## DallasCowboyFan (Nov 20, 2012)

Sex changes us emotionally and psychologically. It will change you, your wife and Lucy's perspective. There is no way to predict how much, in what ways and/or when it might it might manifest.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

wingman said:


> My wife’s best friend “Lucy” who she has known for 30 years is coming to stay with us for a week (celebration of my wife’s birthday and all of us being fully vaccinated). Since we live on opposite coasts we do not see each other much. Lucy, like my wife, is very attractive and ever since she (and her now ex-husband) started swinging a few years ago, banter between my wife and I regarding Lucy has been very heated. My wife playfully shares tales of Lucy’s exploits and she knows this drives me crazy. She has said that I can sleep with Lucy - my wife is, to say the least, not a jealous type - but this has only been ‘talk’ and we do not have an open marriage. Lucy only knows that I look forward to flirting with her and I do not communicate much with her directly (only when we are doing things for my wife). Should I try to pursue this or is it better left a fantasy than a reality?


the last person you should have a three-way with is someone who is a good friend. And Sun is correct that it will only lead to a man sharing your wife at some point. Big mistake.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Have fun playing russian roulette with your marriage.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

wingman said:


> Of course - but we are in the city - so no need for a car - plus my wife does not drive. She gives the clothes off her back to our friends - she would do anything for Lucy. Material things are not that important.


She gives..

Material things off her back.

She is willing to give her husband's penis away.

Sounds like she does not hold deep value on things.

Maybe, not on her own vows.

What are her long term Plans?

This sounds like a change, a fork in the road for her, maybe a fork in your marriage.

Trust your wife's actions, not her words.

What she is allowing is not showing loyalty to her vows, to her marriage.

Your permitted dirty deeds, then become hers, too.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

How does it make you feel that your wife doesn’t WANT sex with other men? Feels pretty good to know that you’re all she wants, right? You just took that feeling away from her about you when you said you might want to bang her friend. If I was a lucky man like yourself and had a beautiful, loyal wife, I’d never allow her to think she wasn’t enough for me..... just sayin....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I am one of maybe a handful of people on this site with any real-world experience with swinging/consensual nonmonogamy. Most are traditional monogamists that simply do not believe in any kind of nonmonogamy and many have been cheated on and had marriages damaged or destroyed by infidelity. You’re not going to get much support or encouragement on this site for this endeavor.

I myself call out red flags when I see them as most couples should probably NOT bring others into their marital bed. 

However in reading your posts, I see no glaring red flags here. You know this person and know her background and temperaments. 

You have had open and honest discussions about it and your wife is basically encouraging it.

You understand and have addressed the risks.

And you have accepted that anyone can veto at any time. 

And you are at a stage in your life where the kids are grown, you have financial stability and and there really aren’t any reasons NOT to have some extra fun.

You’re grown consenting adults that understand the benefits vs the risks and if everyone is consenting, then what would be a practical, nuts and bolts reason not to do it???


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> Fair question. They started swinging at a time when their marriage and sex life were on the rocks - for a while it looked like a savior, but Lucy finally wanted out


Yeah... Lucy was cheating on her husband the whole time which is why she pushed for swinging.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

If your going to go through with it you might as well get an insurance policy by telling your wife she has to do Lucy first.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

My thought is this. The two of you are running your own business. It takes a lot of time. You have a great sex life at this time and things are good.

Then you decide to introduce others in your bed. When will you have time for one another then? Ground rules are not always followed.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wingman said:


> Of course - but we are in the city - so no need for a car - plus my wife does not drive. She gives the clothes off her back to our friends - she would do anything for Lucy. Material things are not that important.


OK, if your wife does not drive because you live in the city and do not need a car then the question doesn't count. 

What if the wife's friend wants to hook up with other people while she is in town in addition to you? You still OK with that?

One issue in non-monogamy is the nature of exclusivity. It does not work the same as monogamy yet people still want it to be that way. This is why affairs are kept secret so that one person enjoying multiple partners gets to do so with each one being exclusive. Eventually that falls apart once all parties involved become aware that there is no exclusivity.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ABHale said:


> My thought is this. The two of you are running your own business. It takes a lot of time. You have a great sex life at this time and things are good.
> 
> Then you decide to introduce others in your bed. When will you have time for one another then? Ground rules are not always followed.


If a guy wants to get with a chick, he will usually find time. 

If the house is on fire, or someone has arterial bleeding, he may have to wait a little bit LOL 😆


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> OK, if your wife does not drive because you live in the city and do not need a car then the question doesn't count.
> 
> What if the wife's friend wants to hook up with other people while she is in town in addition to you? You still OK with that?
> 
> One issue in non-monogamy is the nature of exclusivity. It does not work the same as monogamy yet people still want it to be that way. This is why affairs are kept secret so that one person enjoying multiple partners gets to do so with each one being exclusive. Eventually that falls apart once all parties involved become aware that there is no exclusivity.


I have the sneaking suspicion he does not believe that Lucy is a Virgin or that he will be the first or last man on earth she is ever with. 

If he wasn’t ok with that concept, then he would not be having this conversation.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Then the question is what is he willing to bring home for the chance to play. There are some gifts that meds can’t take care of.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah... Lucy was cheating on her husband the whole time which is why she pushed for swinging.


Not his circus, not his monkey.

They are discussing him hooking up with her for a night, not marrying her, signing a mortgage and car payments with her or having kids and raising a family with her.

What went on or didn’t go on in her previous marriage isn’t material to him now in regards to a hook up while she’s in town.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ABHale said:


> Then the question is what is he willing to bring home for the chance to play. There are some gifts that meds can’t take care of.


Again they have discussed the risks. If one of them decides the risks outweigh the benefits, then all they have to do is not have sex. 

And since they own their own business and seem to be doing well, he can probably afford to swing by CVS and pick up some condoms.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

The fact that you have 3 businesses and must be a together person will make you desirable to some women, the bulge in your pants they are looking for is a wallet.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TAMAT said:


> The fact that you have 3 businesses and must be a together person will make you desirable to some women, the bulge in your pants they are looking for is a wallet.


All he has to do is give them the bulge up front and keep his wallet to himself.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> How does it make you feel that your wife doesn’t WANT sex with other men? Feels pretty good to know that you’re all she wants, right? You just took that feeling away from her about you when you said you might want to bang her friend. If I was a lucky man like yourself and had a beautiful, loyal wife, I’d never allow her to think she wasn’t enough for me..... just sayin....


If she wanted him to only have eyes for her, it’s doubtful she would be encouraging him to get with her friend.

Not everyone feels the same way about exclusivity. 

Some people even get off on their partner getting with other people. I can’t speak for his wife but for some people it is an ego stroke that their partner can hook up with someone else and still choose them at the end of the night. 

Some people get off on others being attracted to their partner. 

Different strokes for different folks.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

So, can someone explain to me how loaning your husband out to your best friend enhances the marriage? Genuinely I am curious how this does anything for the couple, especially since she’s not participating. OP mentioned her friend would tell her the details later... so I guess she wouldn’t even be watching?

I can kind of wrap my head around like a shared experience type thing... in theory. I can’t wrap my head around any benefit to the wife for loaning him out.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I have the sneaking suspicion he does not believe that Lucy is a Virgin or that he will be the first or last man on earth she is ever with.
> 
> If he wasn’t ok with that concept, then he would not be having this conversation.


I was just pointing out that she may have fun with many partners while visiting, while he may be under the impression that it will be exclusive to just him somewhat prior and during the visit (using Covid19 as an example as to why he might have expectations that it has been a while and will continue to be so until things return to normal). This may or may not be the case.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jsmart said:


> Your wife encouraging you to bang her friend smells her enticing you into a open marriage. Unless you’re some rock mega star, your wife will have men lining up to get a taste, while you would be lucky to pull a new girl once a month.
> 
> Sounds like fun until she clicks with one guy and he tells her post coitus, “ I would never share you”, bang. The beginning of the end because women want to feel treasured, which is hard to do when she’s being passed around like a garden tool.


Much fear I feel in this one. 

These are all 50-somethings and Mrs Wingman is assumably post menopausal. 

If she wanted an open marriage and wanted to screw other guys, she would probably just say so, and then just do it. 

Younger women in child-bearing age may play those games and the “I would never share you..” line may work on a 29 year old old wanting another family with a more alpha male. But a 50-something with kids out of the house??? Why bother?

If she wanted to leave him for another man, she would simply leave him for another man. 

Those of you that have such fear that she might get with some other dude, need to realize that that 50some year old menopausal women that want to get with other dudes - get with other dudes. 

They don’t need to play games and use subterfuge and smoke and mirrors. 

And they certainly don’t beat around the bush (no pun intended) if the don’t want their partner to get with anyone else. She would have no qualms telling him that she didn’t want him to hook up with her friend if that was the case. 

Yes, 21 year olds play games and are experts at smoke and mirrors. 

50somethings ain’t got the time, patience or inclination. They just say and do what they want.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> If she wanted him to only have eyes for her, it’s doubtful she would be encouraging him to get with her friend.
> 
> Not everyone feels the same way about exclusivity.
> 
> ...


Oh you answered my question, thank you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> I was just pointing out that she may have fun with many partners while visiting, while he may be under the impression that it will be exclusive to just him somewhat prior and during the visit (using Covid19 as an example as to why he might have expectations that it has been a while and will continue to be so until things return to normal). This may or may not be the case.


Maybe that means something to him and if it is something that matters to him, he can address it and if he’s not comfortable with it, he’s a big boy and can keep his junk in his pants. 

But seeing how he knows she’s a swinger, my suspicion he isn’t having visions of this being some kind of grand, sexually exclusive romance and commitment. 

I’m just spitballing here of course, but he isn’t striking me as being naive or that he is dreaming of riding off into the sunset with this gal.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah... Lucy was cheating on her husband the whole time which is why she pushed for swinging.


Actually her husband pushed for it. But I see your point. It started out a couples thing and then evolved to one of one stuff.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

wingman said:


> Actually her husband pushed for it. But I see your point. It started out a couples thing and then evolved to one of one stuff.


Wow, Bandit calls it, he must be psychic.

Oh wait, maybe it’s just that 99% of these scenarios seem to end exactly the same way...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DallasCowboyFan said:


> Sex changes us emotionally and psychologically. It will change you, your wife and Lucy's perspective. There is no way to predict how much, in what ways and/or when it might it might manifest.


These are mature, life-experienced, 50 somethings that by all accounts here seem to have good communication and risk awareness. 

If they don’t want to do or do not feel the benefits will outweigh the risks, they can simply not have sex. 

These aren’t flighty, game-playing 19 year old girls nor he a testosterone crazed 20 year old frat rat. 

These are mature, consenting adults that can weigh and mitigate the risks and choose what they believe will be best for them in their own specific situation.

And if it happens and everything blows up in their face and they destroy their marriage and friendship, then it will be of their own doing. 

These aren’t naive, hormone-fueled 20 somethings with babies to feed. 

These are mature adults with grown children, a secure business and health insurance. 

If they come down with an STI despite prudent preventative measures, they can go to the doctor. 

If they get a divorce, they split assets and go their own ways. 

If she loses her friendship, she was a willing and encouraging participant and can go find another friend. 

Those are the worst case scenarios. In any of those scenarios, no babies go unfed, no puppies or animals are hurt and there are no innocent victims. 

All made a choice and they live with the benefits and the consequences of that choice whether they go through with it or not.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Much fear I feel in this one.
> 
> These are all 50-somethings and Mrs Wingman is assumably post menopausal.
> 
> ...


Thanks - yes - you pegged us. Appreciate your adding the perspective. I would have never considered this in my 30s or 40s - nor would my wife at the time. Life eventually is too short for games and it changes priorities and perspective. The day I stop showing love and adoration to my wife, she would leave me - regardless of my fidelity. My wife does not celebrate Valentines day (as with many restaurant folks - they work on valentines day). But she expects the spirit of valentines day to be part of every day. Not in material things, but in all the little things that show you care. 

But regardless of how much I agree with each post, I appreciate all that the discussion this has sparked in folks - it is all good. I can feel the passion for preserving a marriage and being true to one's vows. Thank you to all.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Again they have discussed the risks. If one of them decides the risks outweigh the benefits, then all they have to do is not have sex.
> 
> And since they own their own business and seem to be doing well, he can probably afford to swing by CVS and pick up some condoms.


No guarantee when oral pleasure is involved. Did we not lose a friend do to throat cancer from a gift his wife gave him after she was with another?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Wingman enjoy. Just be careful with what you might be bringing home.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)




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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ABHale said:


> No guarantee when oral pleasure is involved. Did we not lose a friend do to throat cancer from a gift his wife gave him after she was with another?


It’s largely in how we view risks. 

There are people will see a news story about someone dying skydiving and will swear to never jump out of an airplane. 

Others will ask where to sign up. 

We all know smoking causes countless diseases, cancers and health issues. Yet millions smoke. 

Same with drinking.

Same with junk food. 

And the most dangerous and statistically likely thing to harm or kill us on any given day is getting into the car to drive to work or go to the store etc. 

So is there a chance he could get an STI that could lead to a cancer by his 70s or to his wife?? 

Yes. That possibility exists. 

But he also has the opportunity to hook up with a sexy chick with his wife’s blessing. How many people ever have that opportunity? 

So it also depends on one’s views on sexuality and monogamy and marriage etc. 

How much do you value sexuality and it’s pleasures and joys vs your tolerance and management of risks?

Someone who doesn’t value sexuality that much, adheres to strict moral codes of marriage/monogamy and has little tolerance for risk - they would probably not even be having this discussion. 

But if someone has a high value of sexuality, is not bound by dogma or societal or religious restrictions regarding nonmonogamy and they are willing to balance the benefits against potential risks, and have a degree of confidence in their risk management and mitigation skills, then they may be more likely to go for it.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> It’s largely in how we view risks.
> 
> There are people will see a news story about someone dying skydiving and will swear to never jump out of an airplane.
> 
> ...


Can one not have a high value on sexuality and monogamy at the same time?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wingman said:


> Yes - always a risk - we run a restaurant/bar and my wife gets hit on nightly. She knows what she wants and what she will tolerate and is very open with me. If there was someone in our life who she wanted to sleep with we can explore than. She has not had any interest. Lucy is a special case of someone she trusts and has her loyalties with her. I think my wife would agree any 'Larry' would need to be trusted by me. We are not looking to wreak our marriage.


If you are not looking to wreck your marriage then don't do it. It's a terrible idea.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> Can one not have a high value on sexuality and monogamy at the same time?


Of course. 

But one’s decision on whether to get with someone else is going to be based on a combination of many factors including their value of monogamy, sexuality, how hot the other person is and their level of attraction to them, their partner’s attitude towards it, their level of risk tolerance etc etc. 

If someone highly values monogamy, they are not going to get with someone else no matter how much they like sex.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> These are mature, life-experienced, 50 somethings that by all accounts here seem to have good communication and risk awareness.
> 
> If they don’t want to do or do not feel the benefits will outweigh the risks, they can simply not have sex.
> 
> ...


Sounds pretty immature to me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Can one not have a high value on sexuality and monogamy at the same time?


My thought exactly. It's not one or the other.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> Sounds pretty immature to me.


Sam here, the opposite in fact.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Torninhalf said:


> Can one not have a high value on sexuality and monogamy at the same time?


Yes, but one needs a like-minded partner in that case to make it work.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> Can one not have a high value on sexuality and monogamy at the same time?


Yeah. A swing and huge miss with that statement.

He should have said, "Those that value strange" are willing to risk it.

There has been a tendency of bias in communities that share to demean or diminish monogamists as being less sexual or as exciting sexually as them.

I've known a few and vanilla comes to mind a lot sooner with them than us.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wingman said:


> Fair enough - yes - this is not the first time she has said this - so yes I have been tested. In all the other cases it was with old GFs of mine and I could tell it was in jest. But Lucy is different because this is my wife's friend - not mine - and my wife controls the communication and has dropped hints that this is in the cards. For my wife, I believe she would only suggest this if she thought it was good for us and Lucy was likely game for it. Also, Lucy and my wife share everything and Lucy will share juicy stuff with my wife if she is intimate with me and I think my wife likes the thought of that. Lucy would also reject the whole thing if she thought my wife is not 100% on board with it on every level. This commitment is something that can only be fully explored and confirmed when we are all together in person. Even discussing ground rules (no unprotected sex, limits on kissing, no private contact afterwards, etc) would no doubt put a reality on this that would tease out if this is a true invitation or a poop test. Lastly, If I really wanted to push the idea of sex with others, I would not limit to it my wife's BFF who lives on the other coast and only comes every couple of years to our house. But I know Lucy is an exception and I respect that.


Just because your wife says it's ok doesn't mean you have to go along with it. She clearly sees little importance in faithfulness in marriage do you?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Of course.
> 
> But one’s decision on whether to get with someone else is going to be based on a combination of many factors including their value of monogamy, sexuality, how hot the other person is and their level of attraction to them, their partner’s attitude towards it, their level of risk tolerance etc etc.
> 
> If someone highly values monogamy, they are not going to get with someone else no matter how much they like sex.


Old shirt,
You don’t feel there’s any chance that your marriage and your wife’s feelings for you we’re damaged in any way by all that swinging you both did? Didn’t make her feel not so special, cause her to lose respect for you, to think about how other men might be better than you in some areas, etc?
Becatae as an outsider looking in, I think that winging may have had some unintended side effects that you are ignoring.

I suppose I’m wondering —- if his wife is so all that, why does he want sex with another woman? His wife must be boring, yes e so she would logically seem.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. A swing and huge miss with that statement.
> 
> He should have said, "Those that value strange" are willing to risk it.
> 
> ...


To me those who greatly value faithfulness are far more aware of how important sex is and therefore keep it within the marriage.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> To me those who greatly value faithfulness are far more aware of how important sex is and therefore keep it within the marriage.


I'm objective enough to know that placing a high value on sexuality doesn't equate to placing a high value on getting strange.

They are two different items.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I'm objective enough to know that placing a high value on sexuality doesn't equate to placing a high value on getting strange.
> 
> They are two different items.


Yes agreed. Strange how some think that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I would be really hurt and let down if my husband thought so little of me and our marriage that he suggested that I had sex with another man, friend or not. Even if a man I was with suggested it I would never go there.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. A swing and huge miss with that statement.
> 
> He should have said, "Those that value strange" are willing to risk it.
> 
> ...


For me, it seems those of us that are appalled by the notion are seen by others as not as sexual.
I can’t fathom enjoying watch my partner pleasure someone else. I’ll kill a bish...🤯
That being said it does not mean I don’t highly value sexuality.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> Old shirt,
> You don’t feel there’s any chance that your marriage and your wife’s feelings for you we’re damaged in any way by all that swinging you both did? Didn’t make her feel not so special, cause her to lose respect for you, to think about how other men might be better than you in some areas, etc?
> Becatae as an outsider looking in, I think that winging may have had some unintended side effects that you are ignoring.
> 
> I suppose I’m wondering —- if his wife is so all that, why does he want sex with another woman? His wife must be boring, yes e so she would logically seem.


Yes it’s possible that our swinging could have caused some kind of damage or negative impact on our relationship. 

But it’s also possible that 25 years of marriage and hair loss and weight gain and wrinkles and menopause and manopause and life stressors and medical issues and medications and an endless list of other things that impact relationships could have had negative effects as well. 

Maybe I fart in my sleep or don’t pick up my dirty socks fast enough. Maybe she’s sick of me always harping about her and the kids not prerinsing or loading the dishwasher wrong. 

Maybe this or maybe that x 1,000. 

So yes, I cannot guarantee that nonmonogamy won’t hurt a relationship any more than someone else can guarantee that strict monogamy will guarantee its health and happiness. 

And as far as the assumption that his wife must not be all that because he considering hooking up with someone else - - that is just buying into the fallacy that one person will be your one end-all/be-all lover and that if we are with the right person, that we won’t ever have attractions or desires for others.

And the bigger and most damaging fallacies of them all is that if we feel an attraction or desire for someone else, that it must mean that our partner isn’t good for us or that they are lesser or not the right one. 

The human psyche and sexuality just doesn’t work that way. One can be with the hottest and sexiest person on the planet and they will still have various degrees of attraction and desires for other people that they encounter during the course of their lives. 

If we are alive and breathing, we desire. 

And when we feel some kind of desire for someone else, that does not mean that our partner isn’t good or right for us. 

The vast majority of people will make a conscious choice to be with one person (at least at a time) and not hook up with others so as not to upset or make their partner uncomfortable or put any undo risk upon that relationship.

But that is a conscious choice and weighing the risks vs the benefits. It’s not because their partner is the greatest human of all time. 

What’s taking place with the OP is risk mitigation and management. His wife is ok with this. They all have an established relationship. They have discussed the risks and addressed the means of reducing those risks.

They are all mature, experienced, knowledgeable, consenting adults. 

Is there still risk here ? - YES. There is still and will always be risk. 

But they have the tools to weight and mitigate and reduce the risks.

So it is up to each of them on whether to actually do it or not and one of three people can veto and pull the plug if they believe the risks will outweigh the benefits.

People choose not to have sex countless times a day. They can choose not to do this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'm objective enough to know that placing a high value on sexuality doesn't equate to placing a high value on getting strange.
> 
> They are two different items.


I agree with that also. 

And wanting strange does not even mean that one has a necessarily high value on sexuality. 

As you said, those are two different wavelengths. 

But my point was those are some of the factors that go into the decision of whether to actually get with someone else or not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> For me, it seems those of us that are appalled by the notion are seen by others as not as sexual.
> I can’t fathom enjoying watch my partner pleasure someone else. I’ll kill a bish...🤯
> That being said it does not mean I don’t highly value sexuality.


I've been a walking erection for 40 years and definitely have a high value on sex and sexuality but I'm extremely territorial in the sexual arena.

Mrs. Conan too. Kill the bish is right!🤬


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> Sounds pretty immature to me.


No. 

Immaturity is diving head first without consideration of the risks and ramifications and disregarding other people’s feelings and well being just because a part of you desires something in the moment.

That’s not what’s taking place here. 

They are discussing it, looking into risks, researching outside 3rd party input and opinions, discussing means of risk management, expressing their feelings and concerns etc etc. 

This is a mature and reasoned approach.

It’s just about a topic that the vast majority of people here do not agree with or believe in.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I've been a walking erection for 40 years and definitely have a high value on sex and sexuality but I'm extremely territorial in the sexual arena.
> 
> Mrs. Conan too. Kill the bish is right!🤬


I don’t mean disrespect to others but I seriously can’t wrap my head around it.
My STBXH mentioned swinging very early on in our relationship.
He liked the fantasy and I assured him it would stay that way.
He most recently brought it up again after his affair. 
He made me feel as if I was not “forward thinking” enough. 
Sex was sex..etc
He was ok with me bl*wing another man...damn if that didn’t hurt as much as the affair.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I would be really hurt and let down if my husband thought so little of me and our marriage that he suggested that I had sex with another man, friend or not. Even if a man I was with suggested it I would never go there.


I understand that and recognize that the majority of people will likely feel similarly.

But Wingman’s wife does not. 

Not everyone feels the same way about monogamy.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I don’t mean disrespect to others but I seriously can’t wrap my head around it.
> My STBXH mentioned swinging very early on in our relationship.
> He liked the fantasy and I assured him it would stay that way.
> He most recently brought it up again after his affair.
> ...


Holy ****!

You really had a dinner winner for a husband!😳


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Yes it’s possible that our swinging could have caused some kind of damage or negative impact on our relationship.
> 
> But it’s also possible that 25 years of marriage and hair loss and weight gain and wrinkles and menopause and manopause and life stressors and medical issues and medications and an endless list of other things that impact relationships could have had negative effects as well.
> 
> ...


You May be right. But knowing how difficult it is to find a special person to truly love, I think it’s freaking crazy to RISK damaging the relationship just to boink your wife’s friend even if the wife is good with it.
There’s a lot of ways this could turn out bad, and it’s not just on his wife’s end.
Also, having sex with a condom with a swinger isn’t exactly healthy. I’ve had several condoms break.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Holy ****!
> 
> You really had a dinner winner for a husband!😳


To his defense he was trying very hard to just balance the scales so I would shut up. We talked about it in depth. I asked him how do I find this said man, what if the first one I try bad in bed, how long can I do it etc. 
He wanted the score evened and then if I liked it we could explore swinging.
Its almost comical now.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> For me, it seems those of us that are appalled by the notion are seen by others as not as sexual.
> I can’t fathom enjoying watch my partner pleasure someone else. I’ll kill a bish...🤯
> That being said it does not mean I don’t highly value sexuality.


I certainly don’t think that people that value monogamy are less sexual. 

As I said above, values towards sexuality and values towards monogamy are two separate wavelengths. 

Even though I do not necessarily strictly adhere to monogamist ideology or religious dogma, I may be way less horny or sexually vigorous than Conan or you or Diana or whoever else that believes strongly in monogamy. 

Two separate things.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I certainly don’t think that people that value monogamy are less sexual.
> 
> As I said above, values towards sexuality and values towards monogamy are two separate wavelengths.
> 
> ...


I’m glad you clarified that. Thank you


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> You May be right. But knowing how difficult it is to find a special person to truly love, I think it’s freaking crazy to RISK damaging the relationship just to boink your wife’s friend even if the wife is good with it.


Most people are going to feel this way and conduct themselves accordingly.

Most people are satisfied with gas mileage and the reliability of their Toyota to get them to work and back safely. 

But there’s always a few that yearn to strive for a bit more than the norm. 

There’s some that strap themselves into a Formula I and risk hitting a wall or another car at 185 mph. 

There are people that jump out of perfectly good airplanes.

There are some that climb into fighter jets and get shot at by mussels and other fighter jets. 

Most people are not willing to risk a stable and functional relationship for some extra fun at all. 

But some are.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Torninhalf said:


> I don’t mean disrespect to others but I seriously can’t wrap my head around it.


It is not required that you do. I don't like Brussels Sprouts, but I have no doubt that some sick, twisted people do.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> Old shirt,
> You don’t feel there’s any chance that your marriage and your wife’s feelings for you we’re damaged in any way by all that swinging you both did? Didn’t make her feel not so special, cause her to lose respect for you, to think about how other men might be better than you in some areas, etc?
> Becatae as an outsider looking in, I think that winging may have had some unintended side effects that you are ignoring.
> 
> I suppose I’m wondering —- if his wife is so all that, why does he want sex with another woman? His wife must be boring, yes e so she would logically seem.


For us, it did no damage whatsoever, and enhanced our relationship in _many_ ways during the 15 years or so we did this. I am utterly certain of this, and we've discussed this many times over the years. Of course, some men are "better" in some ways, as are some women - we all know that is true in life, but we didn't choose our partners based on just one or two traits or characteristics. So those things can be occasionally enjoyed in someone else without needing your partner to have the same things. You get to enjoy _many_ things you would not otherwise due to the restrictions of monogamy.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> It is not required that you do. I don't like Brussels Sprouts, but I have no doubt that some sick, twisted people do.


I’m going to raise my hand...I love them. I can secretly grin I am sick and twisted. 😉


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m going to raise my hand...I love them. I can secretly grin I am sick and twisted. 😉


See? There you go. Bringing them to my dinner table is a relationship terminating event. You want to do that, then we'd better stick to don't-ask-don't-tell.

I'm not polyamorous either, but I have no trouble believing that some folks find it rewarding. To say otherwise is to negate reality.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> See? There you go. Bringing them to my dinner table is a relationship terminating event. You want to do that, then we'd better stick to don't-ask-don't-tell.
> 
> I'm not polyamorous either, but I have no trouble believing that some folks find it rewarding. To say otherwise is to negate reality.


I agree. Some people manage it quite well. Know thyself. I do think many attempt it with logical thinking until emotions set in and then it all goes horribly wrong.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I agree. Some people manage it quite well. Know thyself. I do think many attempt it with logical thinking until emotions set in and then it all goes horribly wrong.


Almost half of all marriages go horribly wrong. Half of the rest aren't that happy. It doesn't mean it's _not_ worth a try, just as there are times when alternative relationships _are_ worth a try.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> There has been a tendency of bias in communities that share to demean or diminish monogamists as being less sexual or as exciting sexually as them.
> 
> I've known a few and vanilla comes to mind a lot sooner with them than us.


I'm going to step up and denounce this as a stereotype. I will not deny that there are polys like this, just as there are plenty of other people who fulfill other stereotypes. From my experience with the local and regional communities, and interactions online nationwide via the poly groups, most of us view polyamory and monogamy as equal, not one superior to the other. Either might be better for some people, such as monogamy for @Diana7 or polygamy for me. But that is only on an individual basis.

And personally, when I do run across the rare poly who does bash monogamy, instead them the riot act.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> Almost half of all marriages go horribly wrong. Half of the rest aren't that happy. It doesn't mean it's _not_ worth a try, just as there are times when alternative relationships _are_ worth a try.


You are certainly correct about the state of marriages today. It seems to be some enjoy and suffer no ill effects from for sure. I just don’t understand it.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

CharlieParker said:


> .


Will do!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Most people are going to feel this way and conduct themselves accordingly.
> 
> Most people are satisfied with gas mileage and the reliability of their Toyota to get them to work and back safely.
> 
> ...


The thing that for me it's not about sticking to what is reliable or functional, but about sex being so important that it shouldn't be treated casually as in casual sex. It's not about not risking it for fun, because it wouldn't be in anyway fun for me to have casual sex with a man I don't even love or even care about. There are other ways to enjoy life that are fun but not that.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> I don’t mean disrespect to others but I seriously can’t wrap my head around it.
> My STBXH mentioned swinging very early on in our relationship.
> He liked the fantasy and I assured him it would stay that way.
> He most recently brought it up again after his affair.
> ...


Your STBXH is an arse. The only way you would not be "Forward thinking enough", is if you didn't allow for others to have their own path. Monogamy, like being right handed or heterosexual, is the default with most people. You are only backwards thinking if you feel that your standard is what others should follow. And you don't strike me as that from the other thread.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Almost half of all marriages go horribly wrong. Half of the rest aren't that happy. It doesn't mean it's _not_ worth a try, just as there are times when alternative relationships _are_ worth a try.


I can't see any times where that is worth a try.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> I'm going to step up and denounce this as a stereotype. I will not deny that there are polys like this, just as there are plenty of other people who fulfill other stereotypes. From my experience with the local and regional communities, and interactions online nationwide via the poly groups, most of us view polyamory and monogamy as equal, not one superior to the other. Either might be better for some people, such as monogamy for @Diana7 or polygamy for me. But that is only on an individual basis.
> 
> And personally, when I do run across the rare poly who does bash monogamy, instead them the riot act.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


The folks I know in real life have never attempted to insinuate that they were more spicy because they weren't monogamous.

They also never tried to use "vanilla" as a term to indicate we weren't as flavorful sexually as them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I do think many attempt it with logical thinking until emotions set in and then it all goes horribly wrong.


And this differs from traditional relationships and monogamy in what way??????


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> Your STBXH is an arse. The only way you would not be "Forward thinking enough", is if you didn't allow for others to have their own path. Monogamy, like being right handed or heterosexual, is the default with most people. You are only backwards thinking if you feel that your standard is what others should follow. And you don't strike me as that from the other thread.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Absolutely not. I’m all about what floats your boat. I just know I can’t do it. That is not to say that I don’t understand the desire but to me the fidelity is more important.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> For us, it did no damage whatsoever, and enhanced our relationship in _many_ ways during the 15 years or so we did this. I am utterly certain of this, and we've discussed this many times over the years. Of course, some men are "better" in some ways, as are some women - we all know that is true in life, but we didn't choose our partners based on just one or two traits or characteristics. So those things can be occasionally enjoyed in someone else without needing your partner to have the same things. You get to enjoy _many_ things you would not otherwise due to the restrictions of monogamy.


However many of us don't see monogamy as restricting. In fact I see having that unique intimacy between two in marriage as freeing.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> And this differs from traditional relationships and monogamy in what way??????


Meaning? People get married with logical thinking and it goes horribly wrong?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> Meaning? People get married with logical thinking and it goes horribly wrong?


yes. 

Or they get married with emotional thinking and it goes horribly wrong. 

one thing that traditional and nontraditional relationships have in common is that many go horribly wrong.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> yes.
> 
> Or they get married with emotional thinking and it goes horribly wrong.
> 
> one thing that traditional and nontraditional relationships have in common is that many go horribly wrong.


That is a fact. 😂


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> The only way you would not be "Forward thinking enough", is if you didn't allow for others to have their own path. Monogamy, like being right handed or heterosexual, is the default with most people. You are only backwards thinking if you feel that your standard is what others should follow.


I want to expand upon this using my Toyota analogy above. 

The Toyota Camry is one of if not the single most purchases car in the US. It is a fine car that combines safety, reliability, fuel economy, comfort and utility. Countless Camrys are sold each year with many people throughout the country owning them. 

If all cars were Camrys and everyone owned Camrys and no one had any other cars, the country would likely be a better place in many ways. The entire automotive infrastructure of the country would be geared towards it so there would be plenty of parts and all mechanics would be well trained and experienced in working on them and everyone would know all the ins and outs of owning, driving and operating them and all roads and parking lots and motor ways would be suitable for their use. 

So given all the benefits and prevalence of the Camry, Should we get rid of all other personal vehicles and make everyone own and drive a Camry? If they are a good car and a lot of people have them and no one really needs anything different, shouldn't we just put an end to the manufacture of other vehicles and make everyone drive a Camry since it will be good for the collective??

And while we are at it, ranch houses are also very effective and suitable as a domestic dwelling so shall we just have ranch houses and not have any other options? 

And Wrangler Jeans and Under Armor sweat shirts are perfectly suitable and efficient clothing, so shall we all just wear Wrangler Jeans and Under Armor sweat shirts for everything? 

I can go on indefinately about everything but you get my point. 

So my question is, why are relationships different in that we feel we must have a one-size-fits-all paradigm for relationships? Why are only heterosexual, man/woman, traditional, monogamous, married relationships valid? 

Why do we have an instant, knee-jerk, sky-is-falling reaction to a relationship that deviates from the one above??

Why are we so fearful and filled with such dread if we don't adhere to strict marital monogamy? 

If all monogamous relationships lived happily ever after and all nontraditional relationships went down in flames, I'd understand. But that clearly is not the case. 

If we can have a diverse variety of personal vehicles and a variety of building construction and a variety of clothing styles and we preach embracing diversity of religions and races and ethnic backgrounds and places of origins, why must relationships be crammed into just one pidgeon hole???


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m going to raise my hand...I love them. I can secretly grin I am sick and twisted. 😉


The scientist in me will say that some people have a gene that causes a compound in Brussels sprouts to taste good. The ******* in me would say “the poor bastards”.... 😆


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I want to expand upon this using my Toyota analogy above.
> 
> The Toyota Camry is one of if not the single most purchases car in the US. It is a fine car that combines safety, reliability, fuel economy, comfort and utility. Countless Camrys are sold each year with many people throughout the country owning them.
> 
> ...


I appreciate that you guys can have a reasonable discussion without getting all butthurt that I totally can’t understand your way of thinking, but at least there’s a little logic to it.
It would literally make me want to vomit to see another man with my lady. I suppose it’s jealousy, or maybe just what I learned was acceptable growing up—- I don’t know. But I can’t deal with sharing and since in my mind the universe revolves around me—— nobody should think differently. 😊


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I am one of maybe a handful of people on this site with any real-world experience with swinging/consensual nonmonogamy. Most are traditional monogamists that simply do not believe in any kind of nonmonogamy and many have been cheated on and had marriages damaged or destroyed by infidelity. You’re not going to get much support or encouragement on this site for this endeavor.
> 
> I myself call out red flags when I see them as most couples should probably NOT bring others into their marital bed.
> 
> ...


I'm going to agree with Oldshirt here. I too have had a fair amount of experience in the world of swinging. These all involved threesomes with my wife and other women never me or my wife doing anything on our own. Even with your wife being on board with it I would recommend taking it slow. Allow your wife to witness some flirting and light physical contact and other small things, then give her a day to digest it and consider her veto. Make sure she fully feels empowered to use her veto at any point and if she does, don't give the slightest hint of disappointment. 

Slow walking it is always the best way to insure against the worst case scenario. But as long as everyone comfortable and you communicate openly and honestly (with the exception of hiding any potential disappointment) based on everything you have said I think you could be the rare couple that can handle it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wingman said:


> Thanks - yes - you pegged us. Appreciate your adding the perspective. I would have never considered this in my 30s or 40s - nor would my wife at the time. Life eventually is too short for games and it changes priorities and perspective. The day I stop showing love and adoration to my wife, she would leave me - regardless of my fidelity. My wife does not celebrate Valentines day (as with many restaurant folks - they work on valentines day). But she expects the spirit of valentines day to be part of every day. Not in material things, but in all the little things that show you care.
> 
> But regardless of how much I agree with each post, I appreciate all that the discussion this has sparked in folks - it is all good. I can feel the passion for preserving a marriage and being true to one's vows. Thank you to all.


Obviously it's up to you and your wife and Lucy with what occurs.

It wouldn't happen in my marriage.

As another has said also - it can be a gamble to your marriage. And I'll add, a gamble to the friendship between your wife and Lucy. From my world view, and being more risk-averse, if I were your wife, I wouldn't want to take the chance on potentially negatively impacting my marriage or close friendship. It might work out fine for the three of you, personally though, I'd just leave it as a fantasy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> I appreciate that you guys can have a reasonable discussion without getting all butthurt that I totally can’t understand your way of thinking, but at least there’s a little logic to it.
> It would literally make me want to vomit to see another man with my lady. I suppose it’s jealousy, or maybe just what I learned was acceptable growing up—- I don’t know. But I can’t deal with sharing and since in my mind the universe revolves around me—— nobody should think differently. 😊


Most people probably share your view. 

But some don’t. 

But here’s the thing, no one is trying to suggest that you and your wife practice non monogamy. 

Nor is anyone saying that you are wrong for being monogamous or that monogamy will damage/destroy your marriage or that you will become diseased or get cancer and die due to monogamy. 

No one is saying that monogamy will lead your wife to cheat or fall for another man (although it happens all the time in traditional marriages) 

However Mr and Mrs Wingman do not share your world view on monogamy otherwise they would not be having this conversation amongst themselves nor would he be discussing this with us.

Yet people are telling him that it will hurt their marriage and that he will become diseased and bring disease home to his wife and the part I find ironic is that people are saying that she may leave him for another man even though she is not one under discussion for getting with someone else. 

Do you see the dichotomy and the prejudice here if not actual judgementalism and bigotry here?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I am of the opinion that even brussels sprouts haters will find them palatable if they roast them with honey and bacon. I mean, c'mon, EVERYTHING tastes better with bacon!😃😁

ETA: People will do what they want to do. For me, monogamy worked. I didn't want to share my husband with anyone else. He felt the same. It worked for us. To each his own.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> It is not required that you do. I don't like Brussels Sprouts, but I have no doubt that some sick, twisted people do.


Ok I like brussel sprouts because they are awesome but even I don't think sharing is a good idea. I mean come on.

You play stupid games with your marriage you are bound to win stupid prizes. I treasure and covet my husband beyond any 'pleasure' that would be possible during sex. Geez. and some of the same people who are so on board (but not swingers) are some of the same guys that have so much trouble getting their wives interested in sex. One has to wonder what came first the chicken or the egg. Can they sense how much these partners lust after others and it's a complete turn off or do they lust simply because they can't have.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m going to raise my hand...I love them. I can secretly grin I am sick and twisted. 😉


They are proven to be quite healthy too.😋


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> No.
> 
> Immaturity is diving head first without consideration of the risks and ramifications and disregarding other people’s feelings and well being just because a part of you desires something in the moment.
> 
> ...


To what I bolded... have they? I may have missed this post. I am being straight, here. Did I skim the thread?

Here's my take of what Mr W is relaying: Mr & Mrs W have sexy heated banter about the idea of him sleeping with another woman (such as one of his ex-girlfriends in the past, and now Lucy as the focus) and as instigated by Mrs W. And Mrs W said she'd be fine with Mr W having sex with Lucy. Mr W isn't sure whether this is part of their sexy banter talk or if it's a serious possibility. Mr W posted here asking opinions if he ought to pursue this. Then he later raised that IF it came down to it, ground rules would determine whether it was still cool or not. I have not read mention of them having a serious and mature conversation about what this would mean to their relationship, risks and such. Like I asked though, did I accidentally skim this part?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> I appreciate that you guys can have a reasonable discussion without getting all butthurt that I totally can’t understand your way of thinking, but at least there’s a little logic to it.
> It would literally make me want to vomit to see another man with my lady. I suppose it’s jealousy, or maybe just what I learned was acceptable growing up—- I don’t know. But I can’t deal with sharing and since in my mind the universe revolves around me—— nobody should think differently. 😊


Pictures of wolves ripping throats out springs to mind at the suggestion of someone other, touching my wife intimately.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> How does it make you feel that your wife doesn’t WANT sex with other men? Feels pretty good to know that you’re all she wants, right? You just took that feeling away from her about you when you said you might want to bang her friend. If I was a lucky man like yourself and had a beautiful, loyal wife, I’d never allow her to think she wasn’t enough for me..... just sayin....


I just shared this comment with my wife and she thought it was very sweet, but that it was not her perspective and the way she feels. She said that she knows I would never stray on my own from her and that any potential trist with Lucy is bound by her trust in Lucy and their 30 year friendship.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> To what I bolded... have they? I may have missed this post. I am being straight, here. Did I skim the thread?
> 
> Here's my take of what Mr W is relaying: Mr & Mrs W have sexy heated banter about the idea of him sleeping with another woman (such as one of his ex-girlfriends in the past, and now Lucy as the focus) and as instigated by Mrs W. And Mrs W said she'd be fine with Mr W having sex with Lucy. Mr W isn't sure whether this is part of their sexy banter talk or if it's a serious possibility. Mr W posted here asking opinions if he ought to pursue this. Then he later raised that IF it came down to it, ground rules would determine whether it was still cool or not. I have not read mention of them having a serious and mature conversation about what this would mean to their relationship, risks and such. Like I asked though, did I accidentally skim this part?


I shared the comments with my wife tonight and wanted all to know that she is fine with me living out my fantacy with Lucy with no ground rules beyond what her "engineer husband" will come up with. She is not concerned about any risks to our relationship or to her friendship with Lucy. She trusts both of us.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> To what I bolded... have they? I may have missed this post. I am being straight, here. Did I skim the thread?
> 
> Here's my take of what Mr W is relaying: Mr & Mrs W have sexy heated banter about the idea of him sleeping with another woman (such as one of his ex-girlfriends in the past, and now Lucy as the focus) and as instigated by Mrs W. And Mrs W said she'd be fine with Mr W having sex with Lucy. Mr W isn't sure whether this is part of their sexy banter talk or if it's a serious possibility. Mr W posted here asking opinions if he ought to pursue this. Then he later raised that IF it came down to it, ground rules would determine whether it was still cool or not. I have not read mention of them having a serious and mature conversation about what this would mean to their relationship, risks and such. Like I asked though, did I accidentally skim this part?


I shared the comments with my wife tonight and wanted all to know that she is fine with me living out my fantacy with Lucy with no ground rules beyond what her "engineer husband" will come up with. She is not concerned about any risks to our relationship or to her friendship with Lucy. She trusts both of us.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wingman said:


> I shared the comments with my wife tonight and wanted all to know that she is fine with me living out my fantacy with Lucy with no ground rules beyond what her "engineer husband" will come up with. She is not concerned about any risks to our relationship or to her friendship with Lucy. She trusts both of us.


Okay, so that changes things for you all. 

Is this something that you and Lucy are going to pursue then? And what is your wife's role while / if this occurs? 

What does she trust you both with? What's the appeal in this for your wife - is it the turn on hearing about you being with another woman?

And if this does occur, is it a one-time thing or is it unknown at this stage whether she'd be okay for you to both hook-up again down the track?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Wait... is this your fantasy or hers? I thought it was your wife's fantasy and which then also appealed to you (and I'm assuming Lucy, too).


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Okay, so that changes things for you all.
> 
> Is this something that you and Lucy are going to pursue then? And what is your wife's role while / if this occurs?
> 
> ...


My wife said no - she is not interested in hearing details - 'this is not a home improvement show'. My wife said that having been in the restaurant businesss for 40 years, she thinks of this like treating her husband to a special restaurant that is a real experience and not something he can do every day.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wingman said:


> My wife said no - she is not interested in hearing details - 'this is not a home improvement show'. My wife said that having been in the restaurant businesss for 40 years, she thinks of this like treating her husband to a special restaurant that is a real experience and not something he can do every day.


Okay, so that's different than what you stated earlier: 'Also, Lucy and my wife share everything and Lucy will share juicy stuff with my wife if she is intimate with me and I think my wife likes the thought of that.' which is why I thought that's what was in it for your wife, so to speak.

Your wife wants you to have this experience. 

I don't get it. Then again, I don't need to.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I cannot imagine anything worse, than lying in bed alone while my husband bangs another chick down the hallway...omfg...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

frusdil said:


> I cannot imagine anything worse, than lying in bed alone while my husband bangs another chick down the hallway...omfg...


I also can't imagine my close friend considering me as a special restaurant to be enjoyed (and more cynically, consumed). 

My twitching whiskers note the contradictions in the posts of what was initially relayed compared to what is being shared now. My cynical nature suggests that perhaps deeper understanding between all three might be useful. Then again, whadda I know... you're welcome


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Most people probably share your view.
> 
> But some don’t.
> 
> ...


You are going to make me say it again huh?

I think most people are judgmental and have a problem with it because of our experience of hearing stories of people who hide there nature until they have trapped someone in what that person believes is a monogamous relationship only to spring on them how they are poly and need an open relationship, or they just open it themselves. That kind of entrapment, and I have read a lot of that stuff, rubs me the wrong way.

Also the hundreds of stories where people try this and it blows up in their face and destroys the relationship all for some orgasms. Often with kids in tow.

If I didn't read a **** ton of stories just like this I wouldn't care. This is my experience with this and I think the doubts are not without merit.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

wingman said:


> She is not concerned about any risks to our relationship or to her friendship with Lucy.


^^^This is the most concerning part of this tale. Something is off. Your wife is way too sure of herself.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I fear more the likely things, less the outside maybe.

I am greedy, very greedy.
Ah, but with only one woman.

Her, I would greedily hoard.

Are Dee-


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You are going to make me say it again huh?
> 
> I think most people are judgmental and have a problem with it because of our experience of hearing stories of people who hide there nature until they have trapped someone in what that person believes is a monogamous relationship only to spring on them how they are poly and need an open relationship, or they just open it themselves. That kind of entrapment, and I have read a lot of that stuff, rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> ...


OK, I agree, with respect to the OP.
He wants this....badly.

But, how does the wife fit in?
She is not posting her views here.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> ^^^This is the most concerning part of this tale. Something is off. Your wife is way too sure of herself.


Why wouldn't she?

She is attractive, men hit on her. She is part owner of 3 businesses.
If they split, she will be covered.

She has nothing to fear. It is obvious to me that she takes her marriage too lightly.

You can partly thank our OP for this nonchalant attitude of hers.

Me? I think she relishes the idea of her GF moving close to them. She values this relationship more.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> I agree. Some people manage it quite well. Know thyself. I do think many attempt it with logical thinking until emotions set in and then it all goes horribly wrong.


Like the common saying, there was a great plan in place in the beginning, then things went to hell.

Tbh, pre-M, in the dating world obviously when much younger, ffm threesomes weren't uncommon in my life, in the wild and crazy '80s.

Post college, 80s club scenes, apartment living, good money, it was a path of least resistance for me at times to be with a girl and her girlfriend or female roommate. 

But I knew always going in that nothing was intended to last, so there was no stress at all.

But in my married world I wouldn't share my wife's physical attention with anyone. 

That's just me. 

We've been married over 30 yrs, great sex life, on demand really both ways, so life is full relationship wise and family life.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Like the common saying, there was a great plan in place in the beginning, then things went to hell.
> 
> Tbh, pre-M, in the dating world obviously when much younger, ffm threesomes weren't uncommon in my life, in the wild and crazy '80s.
> 
> ...


Like I said before I really have no issues what people want to do sexually as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. Consenting adults and all that...
Part of me if I am being honest is sorry I didn’t take my STBXH suggestion and run with it.
There is a side to me that does harbor resentment, of that I’m not proud. 
If I had a time machine I would go back and let him watch me bang another dude and then simply say that was amazing I want more...of him not you. See ya. 😂
Alas I have no time machine 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

wingman said:


> My wife’s best friend “Lucy” who she has known for 30 years is coming to stay with us for a week (celebration of my wife’s birthday and all of us being fully vaccinated). Since we live on opposite coasts we do not see each other much. Lucy, like my wife, is very attractive and ever since she (and her now ex-husband) started swinging a few years ago, banter between my wife and I regarding Lucy has been very heated. My wife playfully shares tales of Lucy’s exploits and she knows this drives me crazy. She has said that I can sleep with Lucy - my wife is, to say the least, not a jealous type - but this has only been ‘talk’ and we do not have an open marriage. Lucy only knows that I look forward to flirting with her and I do not communicate much with her directly (only when we are doing things for my wife). Should I try to pursue this or is it better left a fantasy than a reality?


This could ruin your marriage. 

Is it worth the risk?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Okay, so that's different than what you stated earlier: 'Also, Lucy and my wife share everything and Lucy will share juicy stuff with my wife if she is intimate with me and I think my wife likes the thought of that.' which is why I thought that's what was in it for your wife, so to speak.
> 
> Your wife wants you to have this experience.
> 
> I don't get it. Then again, I don't need to.


Yes - you are correct - this was a change - I appreciated you calling me on this to clarify. Before last night, I had based my view of my wife's motivations based on her banter in bed and how Lucy shared details of her exploits with her. Last night was the first time I probed this in detail with my wife - prompted our discussion of all the comments. So yes - this 'zero interest in details' was news to me, but not surprising given how she is about most things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wingman said:


> Yes - you are correct - this was a change - I appreciated you calling me on this to clarify. Before last night, I had based my view of my wife's motivations based on her banter in bed and how Lucy shared details of her exploits with her. Last night was the first time I probed this in detail with my wife - prompted our discussion of all the comments. So yes - this 'zero interest in details' was news to me, but not surprising given how she is about most things.


So what was the outcome of the discussion? 

Are you two actually thinking of doing in real life or just keeping it as sexy banter in the bedroom between the two of you?

There is a big difference between titilating pillow talk in bed vs trying to make something happen in real life.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> My wife said no - she is not interested in hearing details - 'this is not a home improvement show'. My wife said that having been in the restaurant businesss for 40 years, she thinks of this like treating her husband to a special restaurant that is a real experience and not something he can do every day.


This may or may not be a hint of your Ws motivation. She may feel she wants to share you with her close friend as an experience to share with her......although if she doesn't want to participate and doesn't want to know the details that's telling...

Or she feels she wants to share, out of weakness, to shore things up with you and head off any of your perceived wandering eye.

Or she's setting up herself for later, so she can do the same.

Or none of the above. Things to think about. 

It would be hard to get permission from her for a special meal, so to speak, then future same only at her discretion. That may create future tension. 

Pandora's box, once opened.....


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Why wouldn't she?
> 
> She is attractive, men hit on her. She is part owner of 3 businesses.
> If they split, she will be covered.
> ...


THANK YOU! My wife has a rare morning off so I was able to share this with her and she was very amused by this picture you drew. She had no comments, but agrees with what I write here. My wife is more than a part owner of our businesses - she is the center of them - the reason we have them - I am the implementer - she is the driver, the creative force, the entrepreneur. Anyone who meets us appreciates our partnership in life and business. My wife has been on her own since she was 15 and is no one's pawn. But as a mixed race woman who never quite fits in the boxes that folks construct, she is used to being a conundrum to all. She is loved, loved, loved by anyone who comes into our restaurant and she puts more into our relationship than anyone that I have been with.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Like I said before I really have no issues what people want to do sexually as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone. Consenting adults and all that...
> Part of me if I am being honest is sorry I didn’t take my STBXH suggestion and run with it.
> There is a side to me that does harbor resentment, of that I’m not proud.
> If I had a time machine I would go back and let him watch me bang another dude and then simply say that was amazing I want more...of him not you. See ya. 😂
> Alas I have no time machine 🤷🏼‍♀️


Sad..
But, I get it.

Banging other dudes is fine, just do so while officially separated, and while waiting for the divorce to finalize. 

Revenge tastes good during its enactment, maybe tart or bitter a few days later. 

Or, maybe not!

Take the high road and your conscience will almost always be happy.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Sounds like haven on earth...so what is your concern or do you not have any?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Sad..
> But, I get it.
> 
> Banging other dudes is fine, just do so while officially separated, and while waiting for the divorce to finalize.
> ...


At the juncture we were at when he suggested I play while he watched I was attempting to reconcile. I took the high road and decided that adding more complications was not the wisest decision. In hindsight, as it always is, I would have liked him to have that mind movie as his very last sexual visual of me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Most people probably share your view.
> 
> But some don’t.
> 
> ...


All the points such as you have mentioned are valid though. That's why most are well aware that faithfulness is the best and safest way. That's why most of us don't have sex with others. It's playing with fire. Why risk your whole marriage for a few hours of 'fun'.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> So what was the outcome of the discussion?
> 
> Are you two actually thinking of doing in real life or just keeping it as sexy banter in the bedroom between the two of you?
> 
> There is a big difference between titilating pillow talk in bed vs trying to make something happen in real life.


Her comment last night was that she has given me "the space to pursue this", but it is really up to me and Lucy if we really want it. She has no idea if Lucy is into me - not been a discussion. It is not something that will be explored remotely. She said - if you find her hot, I am fine with it. I did ask her if Lucy was an easier choice for her and she said yes - she trusts her and knows her motivations. She did ask her about some of my past GFs who she has mentioned in her bantor - expecting her to say - no - they are different... To my surprise, she said she gave me a thumbs up on one (Ellen). I asked her "why Ellen?" - 'she is no threat to me - just don't do it in the house'. After reading this post to my wife she commented 'If you do pursue Ellen, I will tease you about it for the rest of your life'.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wingman said:


> Her comment last night was that she has given me "the space to pursue this", but it is really up to me and Lucy if we really want it. She has no idea if Lucy is into me - not been a discussion. It is not something that will be explored remotely. She said - if you find her hot, I am fine with it. I did ask her if Lucy was an easier choice for her and she said yes - she trusts her and knows her motivations. She did ask her about some of my past GFs who she has mentioned in her bantor - expecting her to say - no - they are different... To my surprise, she said she gave me a thumbs up on one (Ellen). I asked her "why Ellen?" - 'she is no threat to me - just don't do it in the house'. After reading this post to my wife she commented 'If you do pursue Ellen, I will tease you about it for the rest of your life'.


Hopefully Lucy will think more or your marriage than the two of you do and say no.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Her comment last night was that she has given me "the space to pursue this", but it is really up to me and Lucy if we really want it. She has no idea if Lucy is into me - not been a discussion. It is not something that will be explored remotely. She said - if you find her hot, I am fine with it. I did ask her if Lucy was an easier choice for her and she said yes - she trusts her and knows her motivations. She did ask her about some of my past GFs who she has mentioned in her bantor - expecting her to say - no - they are different... To my surprise, she said she gave me a thumbs up on one (Ellen). I asked her "why Ellen?" - 'she is no threat to me - just don't do it in the house'. After reading this post to my wife she commented 'If you do pursue Ellen, I will tease you about it for the rest of your life'.


I may be mistaken, but with more info coming out it almost seems to me that you are the one that drops almost-hints semi regularly that you want to dabble with others.....

Is that the case? That is a whole different scenario than the first posts depict. 

Would you be the one that wants to, and she's just going along with you?

Help out a bit here. The premise is seeming to shift or I'm reading things in recent posts differently than intended.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I may be mistaken, but with more info coming out it almost seems to me that you are the one that drops almost-hints semi regularly that you want to dabble with others.....
> 
> Is that the case? That is a whole different scenario than the first posts depict.
> 
> ...


The fact that neither wingman or his bride know if “Lucy” is even interested strikes me as odd.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

wingman said:


> THANK YOU! My wife has a rare morning off so I was able to share this with her and she was very amused by this picture you drew. She had no comments, but agrees with what I write here. My wife is more than a part owner of our businesses - she is the center of them - the reason we have them - I am the implementer - she is the driver, the creative force, the entrepreneur. Anyone who meets us appreciates our partnership in life and business. My wife has been on her own since she was 15 and is no one's pawn. But as a mixed race woman who never quite fits in the boxes that folks construct, she is used to being a conundrum to all. She is loved, loved, loved by anyone who comes into our restaurant and she puts more into our relationship than anyone that I have been with.


Great!!

Have her read the whole thread.

Tell her to comment on what is written. 

1) How she feels about sharing you?

2) Will your having sexual relations with her friend inspire her to seek out another dude to have sex with?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> The fact that neither wingman or his bride know if “Lucy” is even interested strikes me as odd.


That was a big nugget of unexpected info to me, too. Certainly much different than earlier inferences that W and the gf were in the juicy know.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> Sounds like haven on earth...so what is your concern or do you not have any?





Diana7 said:


> Hopefully Lucy will think more or your marriage than the two of you do and say no.


Yes - Lucy is like my wife - no one's pawn - that is why my wife loves and trusts her. It will be a fun interaction regardless and I am sure they both will have fun teasing me regardless of what happens.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Yes - Lucy is like my wife - no one's pawn - that is why my wife loves and trusts her. It will be a fun interaction regardless and I am sure they both will have fun teasing me regardless of what happens.


But Lucy is unaware of all of this at this point correct? You stated your wife has not spoken with her about it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Great!!
> 
> Have her read the whole thread.
> 
> ...


I believe these are all great things to do.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Great!!
> 
> Have her read the whole thread.
> 
> ...


We did this last night - and my last six posts reflect her views. Her comment on your question #2 is "gross". Wait until you or your mate are in your 50's and you might have a different perspective.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> At the juncture we were at when he suggested I play while he watched I was attempting to reconcile. I took the high road and decided that adding more complications was not the wisest decision. In hindsight, as it always is, I would have liked him to have that mind movie as his very last sexual visual of me.


😝


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> But Lucy is unaware of all of this at this point correct? You stated your wife has not spoken with her about it.


And, if Lucy's unaware of all this, is this whole thing kind of moot?

What would Lucy think of all this, that everyone things she's so "easy" that she'll sleep with OP without question?

Just a thought.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> We did this last night - and my last six posts reflect her views. Her comment on your question #2 is "gross". Wait until you or your mate are in your 50's and you might have a different perspective.


Ha, that ship has sailed for most folks you're referring to.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And, if Lucy's unaware of all this, is this whole thing kind of moot?
> 
> What would Lucy think of all this, that everyone things she's so "easy" that she'll sleep with OP without question?
> 
> Just a thought.


I guess since they have all some degree of swinging experience its more of a possibility than otherwise?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I guess since they have all some degree of swinging experience its more of a possibility than otherwise?


Perhaps. And maybe all no worries. However there is a different flavor to newest OP posts, differing from first ones.

That may just be the way things are read, and the full context remains the same. Maybe.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> Old shirt,
> You don’t feel there’s any chance that your marriage and your wife’s feelings for you we’re damaged in any way by all that swinging you both did? Didn’t make her feel not so special, cause her to lose respect for you, to think about how other men might be better than you in some areas, etc?
> Becatae as an outsider looking in, I think that winging may have had some unintended side effects that you are ignoring.
> 
> I suppose I’m wondering —- if his wife is so all that, why does he want sex with another woman? His wife must be boring, yes e so she would logically seem.


What you have to understand is everyone is different. People who venture into and successfully exist in alternate lifestyles are just built different. When my wife and I spent a number of years having threesomes with other women, my love and attraction for my wife didn't diminish at all, we were just having some fun. People like @maquiscat for example who are poly, are able to feel love and commitment for multiple people simultaneously and have no issues with their partners doing the same, most people cannot happily live that way, but for some it's completely natural. To a "normal" monogamous person it makes no sense which I get.

So while you and many others may look at it and say there's no way the husband isn't going to feel differently about his wife after being with other women or the wife is going to feel insecure after he does there are many people who live this way perfectly fine. The reality is everyone who assumes the only outcome is disaster probably knows people who have been involved in some form of swinging or non-monogamy at some point and their relationship was never damaged. You just don't know because they kept it secret, most people in the community are secretive with general society about their lifestyle. 

It's like any preference, some people on super into bondage others don't see how it could be appealing at all. Various views on monogamy and extramarital sexual activity are just a personal preference. My wife and I enjoyed it for a while and haven't really had the desire for a few years now, maybe we'll get back into it, maybe we won't. 

The only thing I found to be universal has been people who get into swinging or open marriages to fix things in their relationship end up with big problems, I've never seen or heard of it working.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I can offer, @wingman you seem committed, go ahead and do. Everyone is an adult. You and your W will look back and either think it was a good thing, or there will be repercussions.

There will be a change in you and the Ws relationship balance and it will then always be there.

One most significant issue I see is that you say she wants you to sleep with Lucy but she doesn't want to join or know details. That's very, very incongruous with the premise of the initial thread and makes one lean towards the fact your W has someone in mind she wants to "do" without you in future. 

She controls and sets up your hall pass with a person she could live with if happens, then you'll have to grant hers later.

This isn't new in the world to have happen by no means.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> The fact that neither wingman or his bride know if “Lucy” is even interested strikes me as odd.


Me too. I had assumed that Lucy was in on it!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wingman said:


> We did this last night - and my last six posts reflect her views. Her comment on your question #2 is "gross". Wait until you or your mate are in your 50's and you might have a different perspective.


Many of us here are in our 50's and older. Still most wouldn't even think of doing this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And, if Lucy's unaware of all this, is this whole thing kind of moot?
> 
> What would Lucy think of all this, that everyone things she's so "easy" that she'll sleep with OP without question?
> 
> Just a thought.


Probably best to have actually asked her by now, although if the wife is so close to her it's likely she has anyway.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

wingman said:


> We did this last night - and my last six posts reflect her views. Her comment on your question #2 is "gross". Wait until you or your mate are in your 50's and you might have a different perspective.


I'm in my fifties. I don't find it tempting. You describe an incredible, attractive woman. But is obvious you want to do this. So why? Whether it will negatively affect your marriage or not is up in the air but why risk it? If your wife is all that why?

Why did she open it up? Does she get vibes from you that she isn't enough? That you want some strange? 

I agree that you are all adults and it might work out. But what did you actually gain? What 's the fascination? 
And I agree that it being a close friend could easily damage multiple relationships. Listen to what your wife has said about both Lucy and Ellen. They are not a threat to her, they are safe. Does she see a wandering eye that she feels is a threat so she is heading this off early?

BTW even people who are uber popular and super sexy have insecurities. JLo has to give herself positive reinforcement every day. I am enough. In fact many of the outgoing gregarious good looking types are the ones with the most hidden insecurities.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

wingman said:


> THANK YOU! My wife has a rare morning off so I was able to share this with her and she was very amused by this picture you drew. She had no comments, but agrees with what I write here. My wife is more than a part owner of our businesses - she is the center of them - the reason we have them - I am the implementer - she is the driver, the creative force, the entrepreneur. Anyone who meets us appreciates our partnership in life and business. My wife has been on her own since she was 15 and is no one's pawn. But as a mixed race woman who never quite fits in the boxes that folks construct, she is used to being a conundrum to all. She is loved, loved, loved by anyone who comes into our restaurant and she puts more into our relationship than anyone that I have been with.


I'm starting to want to try out this restaurant.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I may be mistaken, but with more info coming out it almost seems to me that you are the one that drops almost-hints semi regularly that you want to dabble with others.....
> 
> Is that the case? That is a whole different scenario than the first posts depict.
> 
> ...


With old GFs - she has been the one who has joked about it - in a very teasing manner. With Lucy it has been in response to my wife sharing juicy details - which she knows very well would drive me crazy. It is all sassy bantor. We also run a restaurant in NYC - there are sexy women there most every night - my wife knows my type and jokes about it. My wife is a very confident woman. She is threatened by no one - male or female - temptress, cad, cop or drug dealer. 

Attraction to others can be suppressed or acknowledged. We are fit, active, successful 50-somethings. My wife attracts men (and women) half her age and everyone respects her. This whole thing - giving me the freedom to pursue Lucy - is small stuff with her. She knows I will not go crazy. She is the risk-taker. She would have never married a true 'player'. She wants her men to adore her and she knows I do. 

I have the sense that people want to put us through a lens. It is tough - our regulars at the bar see us daily - they marvel at my wife and have never met anyone like her with her level of confidence and skill at everything from social media, bartending, cooking, nutrition and keeping the peace. 

This whole exercise from this post over the past 24 hours has helped me realize how special she is. They key to me not that I sleep with Lucy, but that she has given me the freedom to. It may not seem believable to you unless I do follow-through, but it is meaningful to me. I love how this forum is so pro-marriage. And I respect all who warn me to not mess up a good thing. It does give me caution, regardless. I have kissed my wife at least 25 times in the last 24 hours from all the posts that convey to me how special she is. I appreciate how all folks are in their own special way doing their best to preserve their marriage and how much ownership they have in warning risk-takers like us not to be fool-harder. Will keep folks posted....


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> But Lucy is unaware of all of this at this point correct? You stated your wife has not spoken with her about it.


I am not the focus of their conversation, but my wife has said to Lucy that I look forward to flirting with her.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> I'm starting to want to try out this restaurant.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Thanks


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> I am not the focus of their conversation, but my wife has said to Lucy that I look forward to flirting with her.


Thanks for clarifying. Whatever you do I wish you the best. 😁


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wingman said:


> Her comment last night was that she has given me "the space to pursue this", but it is really up to me and Lucy if we really want it. She has no idea if Lucy is into me - not been a discussion. It is not something that will be explored remotely. She said - if you find her hot, I am fine with it. I did ask her if Lucy was an easier choice for her and she said yes - she trusts her and knows her motivations. She did ask her about some of my past GFs who she has mentioned in her bantor - expecting her to say - no - they are different... To my surprise, she said she gave me a thumbs up on one (Ellen). I asked her "why Ellen?" - 'she is no threat to me - just don't do it in the house'. After reading this post to my wife she commented 'If you do pursue Ellen, I will tease you about it for the rest of your life'.



I guess I misunderstood some of your previous posts. I was under the impression that this was something your wife and Lucy had discussed and had worked out between the two of them.

If they haven’t discussed this between the two of them, then you’re just some guy hoping to score a piece off of his wife’s friend.

It’s visions of sugar plums dancing in your head at this time.

One of the biggest myths and misperceptions about swingers is that they screw everyone that presents themself and that will take any offer. 

It’s simply not like that in real practice. If this isn’t something they have already discussed and agreed on, Lucy may be outright shocked and disgusted and offended that youbwould think she was a party favor for you because she’s at your house to see her friend.

I’m not saying it can’t or won’t happen. But what I am saying is that she is a normal woman and may not be the least bit down with screwing her friend’s husbands. 

Proceed cautiously here my friend. You may have some completely unrealistic ideas and expectations here.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I can offer, @wingman you seem committed, go ahead and do. Everyone is an adult. You and your W will look back and either think it was a good thing, or there will be repercussions.
> 
> There will be a change in you and the Ws relationship balance and it will then always be there.
> 
> ...


One, I will grant that, given how Lucy shares her exploits, it was a logical step for him to assume his wife would hear the details.

But here's a take I get from this. If she is limiting it to a certain someone of her choosing, then she has set up the precedent that her "fling" will be someone of his choosing. So it's unlikely she is going into this with a person already in mind to have a romp with.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And, if Lucy's unaware of all this, is this whole thing kind of moot?
> 
> What would Lucy think of all this, that everyone things she's so "easy" that she'll sleep with OP without question?
> 
> Just a thought.


Not sure who you are quoting with "easy". I only asked if "I should I try to purse this". Never said it was a foregone assumption that Lucy would say agree. My wife said the same. It would seem odd to all to push this until we are together in person - we live on opposite coasts and rarely can get together. My wife gave me the green light to pursue it, I think that is what is relevant to a marriage.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> But what did you actually gain? What 's the fascination?


Think about all the other activities we can apply these questions to. Skydiving, base jumping, hang gliding, deep sea diving, the thing where you see how deep you can go and how long you can hold your breath. What's the fascination of these? What do they actually gain? All these thing can be countered with, "isn't X enough? Why do you have to go beyond?" The principle really isn't any different.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> Think about all the other activities we can apply these questions to. Skydiving, base jumping, hang gliding, deep sea diving, the thing where you see how deep you can go and how long you can hold your breath. What's the fascination of these? What do they actually gain? All these thing can be countered with, "isn't X enough? Why do you have to go beyond?" The principle really isn't any different.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Of course it is different. I don't risk losing or forever changing the best thing in my life.

I'd rather die than lose my husband and our current relationship.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I guess I misunderstood some of your previous posts. I was under the impression that this was something your wife and Lucy had discussed and had worked out between the two of them.
> 
> If they haven’t discussed this between the two of them, then you’re just some guy hoping to score a piece off of his wife’s friend.
> 
> ...


Let me expand a little further.

We were in the swinging lifestyle for almost 10 years. If one of my wife’s friends husband came on to her thinking since she was a swinger that she would be down with screwing whatever Tom **** or Harry came along just because his wife was a friend and said it was ok, she would have been deeply offended and angry with both of them. 

Some swingers are down with getting with regular friends if everyone is ok with it and game. 

But many also have very strict personal boundaries of specifically NOT getting with regular friends. 

Even if she has been with 100 men, that does not mean she is down with you being number 101. 

Now granted we were never “out” and we never told any of our friends (because we specifically wanted to avoid this exact situation BTW) so maybe the fact that Lucy has told your wife about her exploits maybe she is a little more open and liberal. 

But please be aware that just because people swing that does not mean they are party favors for their friend’s spouses.

And keep in mind that your wife may also have unrealistic ideas and expectations about Lucy also.

She may also believe that just because she has engaged in that lifestyle in the past that she may be down for screwing whoever as well. 

If not approached with proper respect and sensitivity, this could seriously harm their friendship if your wife has unrealistic assumptions as well.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Of course it is different. I don't risk losing or forever changing the best thing in my life.
> 
> I'd rather die than lose my husband and our current relationship.


No, it's not really. Just because you have different things that you are willing to take take risk on or not, doesn't mean that others are the same. For the same reasons I can't figure out why a person wants to jump out of a perfect good airplane, you can't understand how open or poly can work for some people, and be a positive for them.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

maquiscat said:


> No, it's not really. Just because you have different things that you are willing to take take risk on or not, doesn't mean that others are the same. For the same reasons I can't figure out why a person wants to jump out of a perfect good airplane, you can't understand how open or poly can work for some people, and be a positive for them.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


I am positive for them and don't mind consenting adults doing as the please.

But you are right I don't understand it.

I know that the risk to a marriage when you bring in a third party is much higher than when you jump out of plane. That is why one makes the news when it goes wrong and the other doesn't.

He asked what I thought and I'm letting him know. But I"m not against those who have found poly and enjoy it.

Added: Many people enter opening their marriage for the wrong reasons. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to questions what are her reasons for offering and what would be his reasons to accept. Also they really aren't exploring poly are they. It isn't about love it's a hook up.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> You 'bout done yet?
> 
> Show of hands from the group who was unsure on how Diana7 thinks everyone else should conduct their marriage?
> 
> Really, you've made your position abundantly clear. That you are incapable of allowing others to make their own decisions is borderline harassment at this point.


Just hoping that Lucy may have more respect for their marriage than they do. Everyone knows that adultery very often damages a marriage and even ends it, so hopefully she will laugh and say 'What??? No way.'


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Think about all the other activities we can apply these questions to. Skydiving, base jumping, hang gliding, deep sea diving, the thing where you see how deep you can go and how long you can hold your breath. What's the fascination of these? What do they actually gain? All these thing can be countered with, "isn't X enough? Why do you have to go beyond?" The principle really isn't any different.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


None of those things risk damaging something as important as a marriage. They are not comparable.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> He asked what I thought and I'm letting him know.


I find myself questioning why is it that the OP needs to seek validation/feedback from others? He seems to have made up his mind, yet still needs to hear from others to in order to enjoy following through. For those that object, does this only serve to add more adrenaline to the upcoming thrill ride. For those that cheer him on, does it validate him publicly in a way that boosts his ego. I am no longer certain that he is here for genuine help, but that is not my call.

In my opinion the OP needs to ask himself why is it he seeks validation from others instead of from within?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Just hoping that Lucy may have more respect for their marriage than they do. Everyone knows that adultery very often damages a marriage and even ends it, so hopefully she will laugh and say 'What??? No way.'


His point, as has been repeatedly pointed out, is that you keep trying to impose _your _idea of respect, _your _idea of faithfulness, and _your _idea of what vows have been taken, onto other people's marriages, as if _your _ideas were some kind of universal standard that they have to follow. Have you noticed that those of use who practice ENM do _not _impose any of _our_ ideals upon _you_? We don't post our ideas on what respect and faithfulness are supposed to be for you, nor make any claim as to what vows you have taken, yet alone kept or broke. We post what they are to us, sure. But there is no claim of anything that you are supposed to be following or in failing to do so that you do not have respect or faithfulness. We don't post anything that disrespects monogamy, your choice of marriage, as a legitimate form of marriage. Yet you constantly deride any mention of ENM. Don't get me wrong. There have been several cases where we have all been on the same page of some people who are not keeping the ethical part of ENM. But likewise there are plenty who are not following the ethical part of Ethical Monogamy.



Diana7 said:


> None of those things risk damaging something as important as a marriage. They are not comparable.


Your opinion has been noted, but that is all it remains; opinion. They are very comparable because they all illustrate activities (and yes I am including marriage as an activity, a hopefully decades long one), that people who do not engage in them understand why those who do engage in them, do so. Simply because _you _can't understand why people would engage in ENM, does _not _make it wrong. There is not a single problem within ENM that does not also appear in monogamy.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I find myself questioning why is it that the OP needs to seek validation/feedback from others? He seems to have made up his mind, yet still needs to hear from others to in order to enjoy following through. For those that object, does this only serve to add more adrenaline to the upcoming thrill ride. For those that cheer him on, does it validate him publicly in a way that boosts his ego. I am no longer certain that he is here for genuine help, but that is not my call.
> 
> In my opinion the OP needs to ask himself why is it he seeks validation from others instead of from within?


That's not the impression that I got. He's asking for advice and ideas that he may not have thought of himself. And from what I've read, we have collectively come up with issues and concerns that didn't cross his mind, both from those of us pro and those of us con on his potential activity. I admire a person who sure enough to make their own decision, but is willing to explore that they may not of covered all the angles.


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## Skruddgemire (Mar 10, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> None of those things risk damaging something as important as a marriage. They are not comparable.


They risk life and I'd kinda consider that to be at least as important as a marriage.



Anastasia6 said:


> I know that the risk to a marriage when you bring in a third party is much higher than when you jump out of plane. That is why one makes the news when it goes wrong and the other doesn't.


I'm not sure where you're going with that. Apart from celebrities, I can recall a single time I've seen a divorce caused by a third party (either willingly brought in by all parties or by infidelity) show up on the news. On the other hand...I've seen plenty of news articles about skydiving/base jumping/hang gliding/deep/sea diving incidents that have gone horribly wrong.

You also have to factor in the fact that bad news sells. What's the better story?

1. The newly opened relationship that ends in a messy divorce and a three way battle over whose fault it was on Jerry Springer, the resulting court battle over who gets the Audi's spare tire and lawsuit against the (now) ex-wife for breaking the other woman's nose on Jerry Springer and the plastic surgery to repair it...or

2. "Hey! Wife let me shag her friend." "Well what happened?" "Well...we shagged, then wife and I shagged, we all had fun and we're doing it again next month."



Anastasia6 said:


> Added: Many people enter opening their marriage for the wrong reasons. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to questions what are her reasons for offering and what would be his reasons to accept. Also they really aren't exploring poly are they. It isn't about love it's a hook up.


That...is a valid point. It is quite reasonable for him to want to know "what's up"? 

This is one of those times where the best advice I can offer to the OP is to communicate with his wife. This is not unlike the BDSM/Fetish/Kink community's concept of "Negotiation". The process where all parties sit down and discuss what people want, what they don't want, and what they might be willing to try and under what circumstances. As many have stated, there could be negative reasons and there could be positive reasons. 

Now is the time to talk and to have everyone lay their cards on the table and see if all parties are interested in this for the good reasons.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> At the juncture we were at when he suggested I play while he watched I was attempting to reconcile. I took the high road and decided that adding more complications was not the wisest decision. In hindsight, as it always is, I would have liked him to have that mind movie as his very last sexual visual of me.


Then again, he wanted to see you play.

Not pray 

You, in the moment, in the throes of ecstasy, all motion rapid, a blur, then the "O" buzz running down your spine, curling hard, your toes.

Um.

He would 'then' have been happy. 

Not going down that warm and wet, that slippery place, came his disappointment.

He wanted to see you soiled, sordid, not a lady.

You denied him that.. 

Which was worse, titillating his fantasy, or denying his/him?

The Typist-


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

You made my point.

You don't see 3rd party problems in the news because it is so common. Most people just say here's your sign. 

But dying by jumping our of a plane is not that common.

And my third point you didn't understand either. 
I consider my marriage more important than my life.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Since Lucy is the wild card, it looks like the OP's wife is going to have to broach the subject with her before Lucy gets on a plane. Give the woman a chance to consider before wasting a trip. That would be the considerate thing to do. 

If she's not up for it, it will free the OP to start fantasizing about flirting and whatnot with someone else.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> Then again, he wanted to see you play.
> 
> Not pray
> 
> ...


A perspective I had not considered fully and I suspect it is much closer to the truth.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I think the difference, to me at least, is those who live and choose an 'alternative' approach to relationships compared with this scenario - is just that. Lifestyle choice or being wired a certain way that facilitates relationships in a different manner to the culturally dominant norm, and whereby certain codes of conduct or cultural norms are established within those relationships. Whereas this seems to be a fantasy hall-pass with the 'permission' to make reality, if Lucy is onboard. This doesn't strike me as a well considered thought/decision through which all parties involved have shared mutual understanding.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> Since Lucy is the wild card, it looks like the OP's wife is going to have to broach the subject with her before Lucy gets on a plane. Give the woman a chance to consider before wasting a trip. That would be the considerate thing to do.
> 
> If she's not up for it, it will free the OP to start fantasizing about flirting and whatnot with someone else.


And pack the good underwear if it is an option.

I just imagine Lucy showing up and being blindsided by intention otherwise. Which unto itself, could impact a friendship.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

heartsbeating said:


> I think the difference, to me at least, is those who live and choose an 'alternative' approach to relationships compared with this scenario - is just that. Lifestyle choice or being wired a certain way that facilitates relationships in a different manner to the culturally dominant norm, and whereby certain codes of conduct or cultural norms are established within those relationships. Whereas this seems to be a fantasy hall-pass with the 'permission' to make reality, if Lucy is onboard. This doesn't strike me as a well considered thought/decision through which all parties involved have shared mutual understanding.


I agree. It feels off somehow.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Mr W, also while I acknowledge your past thread was 6 years ago and aspects of ourselves and relationship dynamic can shift in that kind of time period, you had previously shared there was resentment from both you and your wife as you wanted to go down on her and she felt you were pushing for it (and she didn't like / want that). Back then you shared 'She also knows that I have compromised on several other fronts so she is concerned that she is 'starving me' sexually.' Are those sentiments still valid now, and could that be encouraging your wife to give you the potential green light with Lucy / Ellen?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Perhaps. And maybe all no worries. However there is a different flavor to newest OP posts, differing from first ones.
> 
> That may just be the way things are read, and the full context remains the same. Maybe.


The change in flavor the recent posts is that I involved my wife and reflected her take on the comments to my original post and let her add whatever details she desired.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> And pack the good underwear if it is an option.
> 
> I just imagine Lucy showing up and being blindsided by intention otherwise. Which unto itself, could impact a friendship.


I suspect that this has been discussed.

And maybe chuckled, then cussed.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

heartsbeating said:


> Mr W, also while I acknowledge your past thread was 6 years ago and aspects of ourselves and relationship dynamic can shift in that kind of time period, you had previously shared there was resentment from both you and your wife as you wanted to go down on her and she felt you were pushing for it (and she didn't like / want that). Back then you shared 'She also knows that I have compromised on several other fronts so she is concerned that she is 'starving me' sexually.' Are those sentiments still valid now, and could that be encouraging your wife to give you the potential green light with Lucy / Ellen?


Interesting dynamic now tossed in...


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Mr W, also while I acknowledge your past thread was 6 years ago and aspects of ourselves and relationship dynamic can shift in that kind of time period, you had previously shared there was resentment from both you and your wife as you wanted to go down on her and she felt you were pushing for it (and she didn't like / want that). Back then you shared 'She also knows that I have compromised on several other fronts so she is concerned that she is 'starving me' sexually.' Are those sentiments still valid now, and could that be encouraging your wife to give you the potential green light with Lucy / Ellen?


Wow - I forgot about that - seemed so long ago. We have evolved from that in many good ways and no she does not think she is starving me sexually in any way (and I agree). But yes - I do have more sexual appetite than my wife and so there is a side benefit for her in me having other outlets. But that is not a major driver I do not believe.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Me too. I had assumed that Lucy was in on it!


My wife shared the level of detail that she thought was appropriate and Lucy likely has an idea that this is in the air. She has never stayed at our house before and it was her suggestion. My wife would never encourage me to pursue her if she did not think Lucy would be interested in entertaining it. Her last comment on this was - 'I see you at least making out - but I dont know what would happen from there'.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Wow - I forgot about that - seemed so long ago. We have evolved from that in many good ways and no she does not think she is starving me sexually in any way (and I agree). But yes - I do have more sexual appetite than my wife and so there is a side benefit for her in me having other outlets. But that is not a major driver I do not believe.


How could that not be a major driver?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> One, I will grant that, given how Lucy shares her exploits, it was a logical step for him to assume his wife would hear the details.
> 
> But here's a take I get from this. If she is limiting it to a certain someone of her choosing, then she has set up the precedent that her "fling" will be someone of his choosing. So it's unlikely she is going into this with a person already in mind to have a romp with.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Thanks - very assute - that is exactly her thinking


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wingman said:


> Her comment last night was that she has given me "the space to pursue this", but it is really up to me and Lucy if we really want it. She has no idea if Lucy is into me - not been a discussion. It is not something that will be explored remotely. She said - if you find her hot, I am fine with it. I did ask her if Lucy was an easier choice for her and she said yes - she trusts her and knows her motivations. She did ask her about some of my past GFs who she has mentioned in her bantor - expecting her to say - no - they are different... To my surprise, she said she gave me a thumbs up on one (Ellen). I asked her "why Ellen?" - 'she is no threat to me - just don't do it in the house'. After reading this post to my wife she commented 'If you do pursue Ellen, I will tease you about it for the rest of your life'.


Your wife will no doubt disagree with my take on this, however, if she felt the need to tease you for the rest of your life if you pursued Ellen, that doesn't indicate to me someone that is entirely cool with the scenario. Fantasy is a strange beast. I note that her fantasy-banter with you (and the seemingly recent 'go ahead' if YOU want to make it reality, which again, seems very different to how this thread was first oriented) are linked with women she feels no threat with. Despite you suggesting she is not 'threatened' by anyone. 

Years back, when we were friends with another couple, the wife confided in me that her and her husband had been fantasy talking about FFM - and that I was her chosen fantasy woman in this scenario. She was not angling to make this a reality; it was a fantasy and their relationship was not open, and she knew it would not be an option with me. Anyway, my point is that what I found interesting is why she had _me_ as the fantasy figure, compared to say Julie Newmar, and which she told me without my prompting haha... essentially in her mind, in part it's that I was not a threat to her. So even though this was just fantasy, she still needed a sense of comfort that (even mentally) she wouldn't feel insecure or threatened by my 'fantastical' presence. I found this curious at the time. Reflecting on some of my own fantasies, which I won't be sharing here, there is also an aspect or detail that remains non-threatening and facilitates the fantasy.

Granted these days, I'd likely shut down that kind of aforementioned dialogue. If I'm someone's fantasy, cool. I don't need to know. A close friend said to me not long ago, 'You were in my dream last night!' This friend has told me of her sexy dreams before. So I told her, 'Was it a sexy dream? I don't want to know!'


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> How could that not be a major driver?


Could be - not doubt it is a factor.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Could be - not doubt it is a factor.


So perhaps her comfort is that if she lets you play with those whom she does not feel threatened by she won’t feel insecure that you will leave her for someone who will indulge your appetite completely.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wingman said:


> Wow - I forgot about that - seemed so long ago. We have evolved from that in many good ways and no she does not think she is starving me sexually in any way (and I agree). But yes - I do have more sexual appetite than my wife and so there is a side benefit for her in me having other outlets. But that is not a major driver I do not believe.


How did this go from a one-time 'hall pass' analogy of eating at a special restaurant to now 'having other outlets'. Am I being too pointy, here? That happens sometimes. If I'm not, however, then it seems you are now positioning or justifying this possibility as a side benefit for your wife and of having other outlets (plural). 

I've got an inkling that making-out / having sex with Lucy will be on your mind as soon as she arrives. I hope that Lucy and your wife get to spend time bonding as friends in your home. When my close friend last visited, we shared wine and talked and laughed for hours. Sometimes with Batman, sometimes in our space, and he was very hospitable with making us all dinner while friend and I caught up and relaxed. If I felt he was focused on having sex with her, my focus and energy would be very different. And no doubt, his would have been too. Granted, just the thought of this makes me shudder and they'd both end up kicked out. Still, I know that's not applicable to your potential scenario.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I'm just impressed the OP has these kinds of conversations with his wife. Not many guys do.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

wingman said:


> Lucy likely has an idea that this is in the air.


Likely ...an idea... there's too many gaps. 

I get that you're feeling your way through the possibility, if that is really what you are doing, yet much of your communication and understanding does not align with the more solid approaches of those who have opened their marriages to include other short-term / one-off encounters or those with longer term sexual and/or romantic relationships. Eh, my whiskers twitch.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> So perhaps her comfort is that if she lets you play with those whom she does not feel threatened by she won’t feel insecure that you will leave her for someone who will indulge your appetite completely.


That's what I've been saying as one her possible reasonings. Great minds think alike. 🙂🙂


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

heartsbeating said:


> I think the difference, to me at least, is those who live and choose an 'alternative' approach to relationships compared with this scenario - is just that. Lifestyle choice or being wired a certain way that facilitates relationships in a different manner to the culturally dominant norm, and whereby certain codes of conduct or cultural norms are established within those relationships. Whereas this seems to be a fantasy hall-pass with the 'permission' to make reality, if Lucy is onboard. This doesn't strike me as a well considered thought/decision through which all parties involved have shared mutual understanding.


I think it is fair to say every person involved in some form of ENM swinging, poly whatever, started with just an idea or fantasy that grew into exploration. For my wife and I it all started with her having fantasies about other women, then she had a serious crush on a waitress at our favorite restaurant, then we went to a few strip clubs and got private lap dances together, then we joined a swingers website and started talking to some people. I think it was probably 3-4 years from initial discussions of fantasies to our first threesome, probably took it slower than many. Most people who get into it and successfully navigate the world of various ENM lifestyles do it in baby steps. You don't wake up one day and say to your spouse hey you feel like going out tonight and try to find a couple to swap with.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think it is fair to say every person involved in some form of ENM swinging, poly whatever, started with just an idea or fantasy that grew into exploration. For my wife and I it all started with her having fantasies about other women, then she had a serious crush on a waitress at our favorite restaurant, then we went to a few strip clubs and got private lap dances together, then we joined a swingers website and started talking to some people. I think it was probably 3-4 years from initial discussions of fantasies to our first threesome, probably took it slower than many. Most people who get into it and successfully navigate the world of various ENM lifestyles do it in baby steps. You don't wake up one day and say to your spouse hey you feel like going out tonight and try to find a couple to swap with.


Not sure this is the wife’s fantasy though.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I like how OP is apparently assuming Lucy wants to snatch his football really badly, but may not care whether he punts or kicks the football either way. Talk about counting chickens before they hatch!!!!!

Hey, if the swinger is coming over, can we slap nasties wifey? Sure hun, whatever.
It’s kinda crazy.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> I like how OP is apparently assuming Lucy wants to snatch his football really badly, but may not care whether he punts or kicks the football either way. Talk about counting chickens before they hatch!!!!!
> 
> Hey, if the swinger is coming over, can we slap nasties wifey? Sure hun, whatever.
> It’s kinda crazy.


Well, they are friends.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

My Leprechaun friend says your wife is already getting some on the side (now and then), or has, hence her acquiesce in allowing you to plow a new fluffy field.

Your marriage has been open for some time.

The lady does handle this side-action well.


_Are Dee-_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> The fact that neither wingman or his bride know if “Lucy” is even interested strikes me as odd.


She knows.

I'll bet you five schillings that Lucy has been primed! 

That said, will she bite, or gently nibble the hard thought?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Very soon, Lucy has some splain'in to do.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Whatever you do I wish you the best. 😁


This statement says a lot


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> This statement says a lot


🤷🏼‍♀️


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Your wife will no doubt disagree with my take on this, however, if she felt the need to tease you for the rest of your life if you pursued Ellen, that doesn't indicate to me someone that is entirely cool with the scenario. Fantasy is a strange beast. I note that her fantasy-banter with you (and the seemingly recent 'go ahead' if YOU want to make it reality, which again, seems very different to how this thread was first oriented) are linked with women she feels no threat with. Despite you suggesting she is not 'threatened' by anyone.
> 
> Years back, when we were friends with another couple, the wife confided in me that her and her husband had been fantasy talking about FFM - and that I was her chosen fantasy woman in this scenario. She was not angling to make this a reality; it was a fantasy and their relationship was not open, and she knew it would not be an option with me. Anyway, my point is that what I found interesting is why she had _me_ as the fantasy figure, compared to say Julie Newmar, and which she told me without my prompting haha... essentially in her mind, in part it's that I was not a threat to her. So even though this was just fantasy, she still needed a sense of comfort that (even mentally) she wouldn't feel insecure or threatened by my 'fantastical' presence. I found this curious at the time. Reflecting on some of my own fantasies, which I won't be sharing here, there is also an aspect or detail that remains non-threatening and facilitates the fantasy.
> 
> Granted these days, I'd likely shut down that kind of aforementioned dialogue. If I'm someone's fantasy, cool. I don't need to know. A close friend said to me not long ago, 'You were in my dream last night!' This friend has told me of her sexy dreams before. So I told her, 'Was it a sexy dream? I don't want to know!'


Thank you. Very helpful post. I appreciate you sharing. These are very personal subjects - fantasies - and most of them are best left only as fantasies - certainly most all of mine are. My wife is not a person with lots of fantasies - so it is not a big


heartsbeating said:


> Likely ...an idea... there's too many gaps.
> 
> I get that you're feeling your way through the possibility, if that is really what you are doing, yet much of your communication and understanding does not align with the more solid approaches of those who have opened their marriages to include other short-term / one-off encounters or those with longer term sexual and/or romantic relationships. Eh, my whiskers twitch.


Fair points - I shared your thoughtful post with my wife - it got her to think of how she formed her views of a healthy long term relationship - which is not something she grew up with parents. She does recall seeing a movie in her pubescent years of a happily married couple who each had a yearly encounter with a close friend who they were emotionally and physically intimate with. Like Lucy with us - the couple lived on opposite coasts from their friends. So yes - we are feeling our way through this.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> Thank you. Very helpful post. I appreciate you sharing. These are very personal subjects - fantasies - and most of them are best left only as fantasies - certainly most all of mine are. My wife is not a person with lots of fantasies - so it is not a big
> 
> Fair points - I shared your thoughtful post with my wife - it got her to think of how she formed her views of a healthy long term relationship - which is not something she grew up with parents. She does recall seeing a movie in her pubescent years of a happily married couple who each had a yearly encounter with a close friend who they were emotionally and physically intimate with. Like Lucy with us - the couple lived on opposite coasts from their friends. So yes - we are feeling our way through this.


Can I ask what does your wife get out of this?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> So perhaps her comfort is that if she lets you play with those whom she does not feel threatened by she won’t feel insecure that you will leave her for someone who will indulge your appetite completely.


I read your post to my wife said "yeah - this is not far off and there are some kernals there." She did not know that I had an earlier post from years ago - so this is all new to her. Thanks for bringing this up. It is relevant.


Evinrude58 said:


> I like how OP is apparently assuming Lucy wants to snatch his football really badly, but may not care whether he punts or kicks the football either way. Talk about counting chickens before they hatch!!!!!
> 
> Hey, if the swinger is coming over, can we slap nasties wifey? Sure hun, whatever.
> It’s kinda crazy.


I read this to my wife - her comments "Lucy is coming into this with no expectations, but she knows that you are interested. She is far from offended". 
She also added "I don’t see you as the propositioning type - you would feel the energy and move appropriately - don’t you agree?". I smiled - my wife does know me and in her conversations with Lucy, she does as well. She knows the men that my wife gets involved with.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> She knows.
> 
> I'll bet you five schillings that Lucy has been primed!
> 
> That said, will she bite, or gently nibble the hard thought?


My wife so glibly put it this morning "Lucy knows your intentions and is far from offended."


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> Very soon, Lucy has some splain'in to do.


My wife quotes this line all the time.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Something is not adding up here.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Well it sounds like you’re all good then. The excitement to bang this woman must be off the charts but for me, just not worth later having my wife want her chance. Some are ok with seeing some dude bang their wife. Me? No F’ing way. I’m like Gollum in Lord of the Rings, she’s my precious.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> My Leprechaun friend says your wife is already getting some on the side (now and then), or has, hence her acquiesce in allowing you to plow a new fluffy field.
> 
> Your marriage has been open for some time.
> 
> ...


My wife’s reaction: “Tell them when you taught me how to play tennis, you tried to teach me the rules so I could play with other people and I said ‘I don’t need to know the rules, I am only playing with you.’ The same applies to sex.”

Me: “But have you always felt this way?”

Wife: “Oh no, I had plenty of side action in my 20’s and 30’s.”


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

jsmart said:


> Well it sounds like you’re all good then. The excitement to bang this woman must be off the charts but for me, just not worth later having my wife want her chance. Some are ok with seeing some dude bang their wife. Me? No F’ing way. I’m like Gollum in Lord of the Rings, she’s my precious.


I think his wife expressed that isn’t in her plans. I think she said “gross” to be exact. 🤷🏼‍♀️ 
I just can’t even...I don’t know...completely lost for words and that rarely happens. 😂


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> Can I ask what does your wife get out of this?


I just asked my wife what she gets out of this? "Nothing - it is not a transaction thing."


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> I just asked my wife what she gets out of this? "Nothing - it is not a transaction thing."


It’s an insecurity thing. She thinks you are going to wind up banging someone down the road so it’s easier for her to help you with the plans.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So, what does your wife plan to do while you're banging her friend? Will she be watching and recording it? Out to the movies? Dinner with a friend? A date with Netflix? Will she have after-sex snacks made for you and Lucy?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> It’s an insecurity thing. She thinks you are going to wind up banging someone down the road so it’s easier for her to help you with the plans.


My lovely wife's reaction "You can bang who ever you want but I just might make fun of them. I reserve the right to make fun of your choices the rest of your life. If you do it in the house - they have to clean too - dishes & laundry." 

I just read this back to her to confirm - "yup - but you might want to leave out part about cleaning - it sounds too unbelievable." But is it true? - "Yes - I am a unique person."


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

wingman said:


> I just asked my wife what she gets out of this? "Nothing - it is not a transaction thing."


Perhaps she'll experience compersion, which is an empathetic state of happiness and joy experienced when another individual experiences happiness and joy. She might feel this for _both_ you and her friend.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> So, what does your wife plan to do while you're banging her friend? Will she be watching and recording it? Out to the movies? Dinner with a friend? A date with Netflix? Will she have after-sex snacks made for you and Lucy?


My wife usually went shopping or visited another friend. I did the same for her. A little privacy does help move things along. And sometimes there were snacks!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> My wife usually went shopping or visited another friend. I did the same for her. A little privacy does help move things along. And sometimes there were snacks!


I'm absolutely giddy for you!


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

So it looks like Wingman will be having some fun this weekend?! Good for him! Maes up for all the posts here of people that probably won't be as the majority of the posts seem to always be "lack of sex".


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> So, what does your wife plan to do while you're banging her friend? Will she be watching and recording it? Out to the movies? Dinner with a friend? A date with Netflix? Will she have after-sex snacks made for you and Lucy?


my wife: definitely snacks. But Lucy needs to do cleanup.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

wingman said:


> My lovely wife's reaction "You can bang who ever you want but I just might make fun of them. I reserve the right to make fun of your choices the rest of your life. If you do it in the house - they have to clean too - dishes & laundry."
> 
> I just read this back to her to confirm - "yup - but you might want to leave out part about cleaning - it sounds too unbelievable." But is it true? - "Yes - I am a unique person."


Why would she feel the need to make fun of you?


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

I think it is her way of cautioning me to choose wisely. But I have not asked her directly. Will update when I do.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

wingman said:


> I think it is her way of cautioning me to choose wisely. But I have not asked her directly. Will update when I do.





Torninhalf said:


> Why would she feel the need to make fun of you?


My wife's response: "hmm - maybe because I am obnoxious." She did confirm that she would not make fun of Lucy - she totally approves and loves her. But she pretty much left open making fun of most all of my past girlfriends. She did say she liked two french girls I dated in my 20's.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> I think his wife expressed that isn’t in her plans. I think she said “gross” to be exact. 🤷🏼‍♀️
> I just can’t even...I don’t know...completely lost for words and that rarely happens. 😂


To be fair to my wife - 'gross' referred to sleeping with anyone you would call a 'dude'. Her ideal man is Gregory Peck. The two men alive she would definitely leave me for are Viggo Mortensen and Justin Trudeau.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

wingman said:


> The two men alive she would definitely leave me for are Viggo Mortensen and Justin Trudeau.


I was on the sidelines until this last line which has me wondering... Not sure if this thread is serious.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> I was on the sidelines until this last line which has me wondering... Not sure if this thread is serious.


I would not be investing my time (or wasting yours) in a non-serious thread. I value all that folks say here. It helps me draw things out of my wife that would not otherwise be expressed.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

wingman said:


> I would not be investing my time (or wasting yours) in a non-serious thread. I value all that folks say here. It helps me draw things out of my wife that would not otherwise be expressed.


Posts refering to men as dudes - sound so crude to my wife and i.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

wingman said:


> I would not be investing my time (or wasting yours) in a non-serious thread. I value all that folks say here. It helps me draw things out of my wife that would not otherwise be expressed.


No waste of my time, this board is entertainment for me. I hope things work out well with your situation and there are no unwanted or unexpected side effects from it.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> the bulge in your pants they are looking for is a wallet.


I love that one ..... very clever 👍👍


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

I’ve never had the experience of swinging or being a part of group activity or swapping. The most interesting thing I’ve ever did is kiss a girl in college. She wasn’t even a great kisser.

But I’ve had too much experience with being propositioned by the female component of the “open” relationship or whatever they labeled themselves as and I will tell you, I’ve never been so harassed and pursued as by a female...On so many occasions I’m convinced I have a beacon. It’s WOMEN that don’t take no for an answer. 

My point is... if your escapades grow beyond Lucy, just don’t be the creeper couple that goes on the hunt for fresh meat. As a public service. Thank you.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

The swing thing isn’t in our game but I’ll admit if it were going to happen once I would get it on film and she would be subject to things that might make her think twice about ever wanting a round #2.

Or would it make her beg for round 2 ???

I guess you never really know.

Edit: But on the other hand maybe she is thinking the same thing and I would be the one scared of round 2 🤣🤣🤣


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> My wife usually went shopping or visited another friend. I did the same for her. A little privacy does help move things along. And sometimes there were snacks!


Snacks always help.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

wingman said:


> My wife's response: "hmm - maybe because I am obnoxious." She did confirm that she would not make fun of Lucy - she totally approves and loves her. But she pretty much left open making fun of most all of my past girlfriends. She did say she liked two french girls I dated in my 20's.


She's your wife. Of course she's going to make fun of you. I think I'd be worried if my spouses didn't make fun of me, and vice versa. The support is there where it is important, and I suspect the same for your wife.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

wingman said:


> To be fair to my wife - 'gross' referred to sleeping with anyone you would call a 'dude'. Her ideal man is Gregory Peck. The two men alive she would definitely leave me for are Viggo Mortensen and Justin Trudeau.


I can see Viggo if he looks like he did in LOTR, but clean shaven....I'm starting to questions your wife's judgement.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> The swing thing isn’t in our game but I’ll admit if it were going to happen once I would get it on film and she would be subject to things that might make her think twice about ever wanting a round #2.
> 
> Or would it make her beg for round 2 ???
> 
> ...


Watch out for the quiet ones. They're the ones who always surprise you.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

maquiscat said:


> I can see Viggo if he looks like he did in LOTR, but clean shaven....I'm starting to questions your wife's judgement.


Isn’t that the guy with a tail?? I could have sworn there were internet pictures floating around with his “tail” on display...


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> No waste of my time, this board is entertainment for me. I hope things work out well with your situation and there are no unwanted or unexpected side effects from it.


Thanks - am still a newbie with this and still amazed at all the interaction and the consideration people have for our situation. This time, I am very pleased to have shared many of the posts with my wife - I did not know how she would react - it really does bring us closer together. She is unlikely to ever be on this forum directly - but she is fine with me being her scribe and loves that I have access to such a forum. My lovely is very amused being dubbed "Mrs. Wingman".


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> She's your wife. Of course she's going to make fun of you. I think I'd be worried if my spouses didn't make fun of me, and vice versa. The support is there where it is important, and I suspect the same for your wife.


Perfectly stated - that is my wife exactly - thanks.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> I think his wife expressed that isn’t in her plans. I think she said “gross” to be exact. 🤷🏼‍♀️
> I just can’t even...I don’t know...completely lost for words and that rarely happens. 😂


What a woman says and what she thinks are not even in the galaxy. Jmo


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Evinrude58 said:


> What a woman says and what she thinks are not even in the galaxy. Jmo


Perhaps. Interesting thread. Educational.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> I’ve never had the experience of swinging or being a part of group activity or swapping. The most interesting thing I’ve ever did is kiss a girl in college. She wasn’t even a great kisser.
> 
> But I’ve had too much experience with being propositioned by the female component of the “open” relationship or whatever they labeled themselves as and I will tell you, I’ve never been so harassed and pursued as by a female...On so many occasions I’m convinced I have a beacon. It’s WOMEN that don’t take no for an answer.
> 
> My point is... if your escapades grow beyond Lucy, just don’t be the creeper couple that goes on the hunt for fresh meat. As a public service. Thank you.


Heard - loud and clear - that is what turned my wife off from the swinging couples who hit on us - she had no interest in hooking up with a woman and there was a lot of pressure.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

wingman said:


> To be fair to my wife - 'gross' referred to sleeping with anyone you would call a 'dude'. Her ideal man is Gregory Peck. The two men alive she would definitely leave me for are Viggo Mortensen and Justin Trudeau.


 Justin Trudeau doesn't tick many "man" boxes. She'd go shopping with him, and other things women like to do together, I guess.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ccpowerslave said:


> I was on the sidelines until this last line which has me wondering... Not sure if this thread is serious.


Irregardless, thanks for keeping us prudes (prunes) in the know.

Most here will never know this lifestyle.

That said, the thought of 'this' behavior touches many here in naughty places. No, they will never admit it.

Hah!



_Are Dee-_


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

Wow..... It's been a long time since I have posted in here. I check in from time to time, to see what's going on, or when I get one of the automated emails from TAM. Normally, I just read interesting threads, and move on with my life, but this one, I had to sit down and read all of the way through. I'm not exactly sure what OP is getting out of posting here, as it seems that he has already made up his mind and his wife has not only ok'd it, but seems to be promoting it (which is also quite bizarre to me). 

But, I check the news daily, and see things that horrify me, that are going on in our world that many people do not even blink their eyes at and realize, that the world is changing, and not for the better. And while I am being a complete pompous ass, I do not understand why people even bother to take vows and later, simply disregard them for a fling. My wife is the most precious thing in my life (as well as my three children). The thought of another man (forget sex) just touching her makes me crazy. The Mariana Trench is not deep enough a hole for where I would put the body. And, if my wife offered up her friend to me as a play thing, I would be heartbroken, knowing that I was not precious to her. Thankfully, she is crazier than I am and would be disposing of TWO bodies at Monster Joe's, if there was any shenanigans. I am 51 years old and we have been married 27 years. I fantasize about her every damned day. And maybe that makes me "vanilla", but I'll be vanilla all day long if it means I get to spend the remainder of my life with her.

I get that some of you are into this open-marriage lifestyle, or were at one time and you are still in your marriages. You can explain it all you want in a hundred different ways, but I will never get it. I am not trying to be a prude, but rather trying to get a frame of reference of OP's angle, or more to the point, OP's wife's angle. I get it... their children are grown, they are both secure with each other, yada yada. But what is the motive? I understand his. If hers is that she worries that he will, at some point in the future, shag an unknown partner, than I would have to assume that she is not very confident in herself and how her husband views her; which contradicts the way that the OP described his wife at the outset. I'm not looking for conspiracy here, just trying to understand.

But as @sokillme so eloquently put it: "Also the hundreds of stories where people try this and it blows up in their face and destroys the relationship all for some orgasms. Often with kids in tow.
If I didn't read a **** ton of stories just like this I wouldn't care. This is my experience with this and I think the doubts are not without merit"....... -Brilliantly put.

OP, if you are reading this, please do not take any offense from this, BUT, if your wife is as amazing as you describe, WHY ON EARTH WOULD TAKE ANY RISK????? Is a piece of tail worth possibly losing her? Like Robert Redford (who, btw is a douche in real life) said "I wouldn't share you for all the money in the world".


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Rushwater said:


> I am 51 years old and we have been married 27 years. I fantasize about her every damned day. And maybe that makes me "vanilla", but I'll be vanilla all day long if it means I get to spend the remainder of my life with her.


I don’t think that makes you vanilla.

I think that’s beautiful; filled with desire, passion, conviction, and a strong bond. It’s refreshing to read.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rushwater said:


> Wow..... It's been a long time since I have posted in here. I check in from time to time, to see what's going on, or when I get one of the automated emails from TAM. Normally, I just read interesting threads, and move on with my life, but this one, I had to sit down and read all of the way through. I'm not exactly sure what OP is getting out of posting here, as it seems that he has already made up his mind and his wife has not only ok'd it, but seems to be promoting it (which is also quite bizarre to me).
> 
> But, I check the news daily, and see things that horrify me, that are going on in our world that many people do not even blink their eyes at and realize, that the world is changing, and not for the better. And while I am being a complete pompous ass, I do not understand why people even bother to take vows and later, simply disregard them for a fling. My wife is the most precious thing in my life (as well as my three children). The thought of another man (forget sex) just touching her makes me crazy. The Mariana Trench is not deep enough a hole for where I would put the body. And, if my wife offered up her friend to me as a play thing, I would be heartbroken, knowing that I was not precious to her. Thankfully, she is crazier than I am and would be disposing of TWO bodies at Monster Joe's, if there was any shenanigans. I am 51 years old and we have been married 27 years. I fantasize about her every damned day. And maybe that makes me "vanilla", but I'll be vanilla all day long if it means I get to spend the remainder of my life with her.
> 
> ...


Amen, I agree 100% and BTW not being in anyway pompous or vanilla to actually want to be faithful to your spouse and to want to keep the family safe and secure. Like you I sometimes despair at threads like this, that moral values have sunk so low now. I hang on to the fact that I know so many marriages like yours where there is faithfullness and mutual respect. 
Like you I would be deeply shocked and sad and feel totally disrespected and unloved if my husband were to suggest that I had sex with his best friend or any man. Also just because a spouse permits something the other spouse can still make the decision to say 'no way, what are you thinking?'


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Rushwater said:


> And while I am being a complete pompous ass, I do not understand why people even bother to take vows and later, simply disregard them for a fling.


Part of that is because you are assuming that others are taking the same vows that you took. While I wouldn't necessarily call that being a pompous arse, it is narrow minded and stereotyping.



> I fantasize about her every damned day. And maybe that makes me "vanilla", but I'll be vanilla all day long if it means I get to spend the remainder of my life with her.


And I feel the same way about both of my wives and my husband as well (sans the sexual fantasy part). That's a very good things. Devotion to our spouses is to be celebrated, no matter how many we have. Abject mindless devotion however...



> I get that some of you are into this open-marriage lifestyle, or were at one time and you are still in your marriages. You can explain it all you want in a hundred different ways, but I will never get it.


You don't have to get it, anymore than you have to get being a different religion, or being homosexual or bisexual or anything else that another person does. And honestly, we're not asking that you get it. We're only asking that you don't berate us, or claim what we are doing is wrong. Wrong for you, sure. But not wrong in the overall sense.



> I am not trying to be a prude, but rather trying to get a frame of reference of OP's angle, or more to the point, OP's wife's angle. ... But what is the motive?


Again, this isn't necessarily something that you need to get, but there are people who actually feel good when doing things like this for their loved ones. It's called compersion, although I think I spelled it wrong and the spell checker isn't giving me the correct spelling. Still, for this specific activity, they are secure enough in their relationships, that any partner engaging in the physical act doesn't threaten the relationship. Again, that may not work for you, but it does for them.



> I'm not looking for conspiracy here, just trying to understand.


Hopefully what I wrote put you a little closer to understanding. If nothing else, think of it in this manner. I personally cannot understand why anyone would want to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. However, I _do _understand that there are people who enjoy skydiving and that they receive a lot of joy from it. I could never receive joy from it, nor understand how they do, but it doesn't mean that they don't receive that joy, and that it is healthy and safe for them, and I can at least understand _that_.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

maquiscat said:


> And I feel the same way about both of my wives and my husband as well (sans the sexual fantasy part). That's a very good things. Devotion to our spouses is to be celebrated, no matter how many we have.


I also view the love and devotion you have with your wives and husband as beautiful.

I don’t think one size fits all when it comes to relationships.

Yet I also don’t view the dynamic presented in this thread as aligned with what you have.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

All this may come to nothing, just great fantasy and conversation. 

It's generated widely varied responses and views, and some have shared a little bit of past experiences that have added well rounded contexts and valid point of views.

As this thread moves through to some some of ending, as to how short term and long term results turn out I can offer it's been an educational thread.

Rife with real life scenarios from persons with differing views from agreeing, open to learning, and opposing. 

So, it may at the end make a stick note case study. Who knows 🙄🙄👍👍


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

heartsbeating said:


> I also view the love and devotion you have with your wives and husband as beautiful.
> 
> I don’t think one size fits all when it comes to relationships.
> 
> Yet I also don’t view the dynamic presented in this thread as aligned with what you have.


It's not. We're polyamourous. Based on the OPs words, they are open or swinging, depending on which definition of swinging you're using. But both fall under ENM, and, to bring it back to my point to the other person, such actions aren't necessarily an indication of lack of respect, or live, or devotion, and anything else. I just hope that they get it, as far as that it does actually work for others.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

maquiscat said:


> Part of that is because you are assuming that others are taking the same vows that you took. While I wouldn't necessarily call that being a pompous arse, it is narrow minded and stereotyping.


@maquiscat the most active section of this forum is for those struggling and suffering from issues related infidelity. An extraordinarily high percentage of effort and help that occurs on this forum is related to overcoming and avoiding future infidelity.

And here you have an OP pretty much bragging about embracing the idea of an open marriage. I wouldn't be so quick to judge and call those here trying to help as being narrow minded and stereotyping.

While it is not my call, I think this thread belongs somewhere else on the internet. It would be more appropriate for a forum that openly supports extramarital activities which for all practical purposes are porn sites.

This forum is called "Sex in Marriage" and not "Sex outside of Marriage."


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Rushwater said:


> Wow..... It's been a long time since I have posted in here. I check in from time to time, to see what's going on, or when I get one of the automated emails from TAM. Normally, I just read interesting threads, and move on with my life, but this one, I had to sit down and read all of the way through. I'm not exactly sure what OP is getting out of posting here, as it seems that he has already made up his mind and his wife has not only ok'd it, but seems to be promoting it (which is also quite bizarre to me).
> 
> But, I check the news daily, and see things that horrify me, that are going on in our world that many people do not even blink their eyes at and realize, that the world is changing, and not for the better. And while I am being a complete pompous ass, I do not understand why people even bother to take vows and later, simply disregard them for a fling. My wife is the most precious thing in my life (as well as my three children). The thought of another man (forget sex) just touching her makes me crazy. The Mariana Trench is not deep enough a hole for where I would put the body. And, if my wife offered up her friend to me as a play thing, I would be heartbroken, knowing that I was not precious to her. Thankfully, she is crazier than I am and would be disposing of TWO bodies at Monster Joe's, if there was any shenanigans. I am 51 years old and we have been married 27 years. I fantasize about her every damned day. And maybe that makes me "vanilla", but I'll be vanilla all day long if it means I get to spend the remainder of my life with her.
> 
> ...


Zero offense taken Rushman. Appreciation in fact. And I love your passion. I am on TAM because I want perspective and I appreciate that folks like you take the time to say - why risk it? My posts here are just to my attempt to clarify our motivations to even consider this. The fact that so many folks are concerned I am being foolhardy is very heartwarming. It may be hard to see, but if I think for a second (now or in the future) that I am risking anything in my relationship with my wife, this whole notion of a trist will remain pure fantasy. 


I asked my wife this week - if she would be suspicious if I start getting in better shape and she said 'of course not - that is one of the side benefits'. That is my wife - who is in amazing shape - even for someone half her age. I have never been a slouch, but I need to set-up my game and this may be one way for my wife to motivate me. 

Fundamentally my wife trusts me - to be open and honest and to do the right thing or listen to her if I am doing it wrong. I also am more conservative than her in almost all aspects of life, but I am 100% supportive of her risk taking. But as part of my support, my wife demands that we keep balance with our family, relationship and health. I have a tendency to get consumed by new stuff and she knows that. If this idea of a trist gets me to focus on getting in top shape - that is good. But if I start going onto tinder (which I have never been on) that is foolish. She knows that I always listen to her and if I go down the wrong path she can call me on it. Lucy living on an opposite coast and us only seeing her every couple of years keeps that contained in my wife’s mind. 
But we shall see. Love all the comments.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

wingman said:


> I asked my wife this week - if she would be suspicious if I start getting in better shape and she said 'of course not - that is one of the side benefits'. That is my wife - who is in amazing shape - even for someone half her age. I have never been a slouch, but I need to set-up my game and *this may be one way for my wife to motivate me.*


I am absolutely speechless. Guess I'll have to settle for🤣🤣🤣


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> While it is not my call, I think this thread belongs somewhere else on the internet. It would be more appropriate for a forum that openly supports extramarital activities which for all practical purposes are porn sites.
> 
> This forum is called "Sex in Marriage" and not "Sex outside of Marriage."


Sounds like a vote for segregation. Anyway, I disagree with you. These kinds of issues come up often in marriage, but most of the time they result in _cheating_ because the parties can't openly and honestly discuss their needs and desires due to the indoctrination about what "normal" and "marriage" means to most married people. IMO, it's far better to discuss these things before they happen, than deal with the aftermath when they're not agreed to ahead of time.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I tend to look at thing from what the ultimate point of view is when it comes to sexuality: Biological. Regardless of people's opinions in today's modern world there's a biological imperative that drives all living things, and that's imperative as the ultimate goal of all living species in this planet: Procreation: Genes drive to pass on themselves at the cost of all others. This is a biological imperative that even the most primitive of humans instinctively understand and follow as per their social standards with the drive to pass their own genes. 

In nature the males drive is to ascertain that their genes are the ones being pass on. Females drive is to ascertain that their progeny has the sufficient resources from a male (s)/inner circle of support in order to guarantee the progeny to survive to adulthood and repeat the cycle.

Here's is where social development evolves within a species with rules for everyone to follow or be cast aside as a non desirable (traits) within the individual. 

So for humans when it comes to mating, throughout time our species mating behaviors have tried every possible combination of ways to ensure that the species survives, but it has come to a finality that males will guard with whatever means they have at their disposition to ensure that that progeny is theirs, and not someone else's. It is within our genetic material to instinctively seek and react to that trait. Now modern society, specially with the advances in medicine and science have throw a wrench to that biological imperative, and humans are choosing what goes on now, but I understand it that it is happening to the detriment of the species. 

The simple act of males of non desirable genes such as those that make a male to want to see their female mate mating with another male is being now mostly override with modern methods of females contraception and societal rationalization for acceptance, thereby giving these males the chance to eventually pass those undesirable genes that for hundred of thousands years of evolution were made to ascertain that that male would not pass on those genes. Same for mental illness for example, even in the most primitive human societies, a person that shows mental illness is set aside as some sort of individual with connection to the gods, therefore rendering the individual untouchable as far as sex for procreation. In today's societies you see two individuals with mental illness mating and procreating. What do you think it's the end result of that? the procreation of more and more individuals that will also have mental illness. But hey, the rights of the individual trumps all other rights, including those of the wellbeing of the species as a whole. 

That is why when I see how prevalent and accepting is now in society for men to seek and derive pleasure by seeing their wife/girlfriend/mate being ****ed by other males, I just feel sad to see that all those thousands upon thousands of years of evolutionary taboos are being diluted to the point that we are becoming I'm afraid, a genetic degeneration, which eventually will do in itself without the intervention of mother nature. At this stage for humans it seems farfetched into time, but eventually it might happens. All things point to that end, and not just from a mating perspective.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

badsanta said:


> @maquiscat the most active section of this forum is for those struggling and suffering from issues related infidelity. An extraordinarily high percentage of effort and help that occurs on this forum is related to overcoming and avoiding future infidelity.
> 
> And here you have an OP pretty much bragging about embracing the idea of an open marriage. I wouldn't be so quick to judge and call those here trying to help as being narrow minded and stereotyping.
> 
> ...


Please don't get me.wrong. Infidelity is infidelity whether it happens in a monogamous relationship or a polygamous one. Mind you, that doesn't mean your criteria for infidelity matches mine or others automatically.

It is one thing to warn against the possible pitfalls of ENM, and Lord knows I have pointed them out myself before. In this thread even. However, noting those possible problems is quite different from telling someone they are violating their vows or commiting infidelity. That is what I am addressing as narrow minded and stereotyping.

As to the forum, as far as I can tell, it neither open supports ENM, nor does expressly condemn it.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Any man who wants to exercise his biological imperative to pass on his genes certainly isn't going to pick a woman in her 50s. Only a man who wants an easy piece of ass will entertain screwing his wife's best friend.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I am absolutely speechless. Guess I'll have to settle for🤣🤣🤣


Me too, quite honestly totally bizarre. Oh I want my spouse to get in better shape so I will suggest that they committ adultery, that will help. 🤨


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Please don't get me.wrong. Infidelity is infidelity whether it happens in a monogamous relationship or a polygamous one. Mind you, that doesn't mean your criteria for infidelity matches mine or others automatically.
> 
> It is one thing to warn against the possible pitfalls of ENM, and Lord knows I have pointed them out myself before. In this thread even. However, noting those possible problems is quite different from telling someone they are violating their vows or commiting infidelity. That is what I am addressing as narrow minded and stereotyping.
> 
> ...


Adultery is still adultery though, once you go outsude the one man one woman marriage.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Adultery is still adultery though, once you go outsude the one man one woman marriage.


They may have had a civil ceremony where the officiant says "Do you take this woman/man to be your lawful spouse?". No vows involved or they could have exchanged vows they wrote themselves.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Any man who wants to exercise his biological imperative to pass on his genes certainly isn't going to pick a woman in her 50s. Only a man who wants an easy piece of ass will entertain screwing his wife's best friend.


So you're saying that any women past her 40s is only seen an easy piece of ass? Fortunately, I - and I think most men - have a more positive and nuanced opinion of women and value them for far more than their fertility!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Adultery is still adultery though, once you go outsude the one man one woman marriage.


Adultery is not necessarily infidelity. I detest the latter, but not necessarily the former.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> So you're saying that any women past her 40s is only seen an easy piece of ass? Fortunately, I - and I think most men - have a more positive and nuanced opinion of women and value them for far more than their fertility!


No, I am not saying that (and you know it).


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Any man who wants to exercise his biological imperative to pass on his genes certainly isn't going to pick a woman in her 50s. Only a man who wants an easy piece of ass will entertain screwing his wife's best friend.


Haha!! You are quite right here.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> Adultery is still adultery though, once you go outsude the one man one woman marriage.


That only hold true for certain religions and to certain states. Not all states still have adultery laws on the books. So legally speaking, no adultery is committed in those states. Furthermore, since some religions allow for polygamy, no adultery is committed for marriages that are 3 or more spouses, if they are not going outside the marriage. 

Sure, if something happens outside a marriage, it's adultery. Whether adultery in and of itself is positive, negative or neutral is an opinion, and can never be anything but, outside of a narrowed context. But you'll notice that I never said anything about adultery. I mentioned vows and infidelity. You don't get to tell @wingman and his wife what vows they made yet alone whether they violated them, unless you were there, or they specify them here. Nor do you get to choose for them, or anyone else for that matter, what they consider infidelity. No one denies that you and many others would consider the actions as such for _your_ relationships. That's fine. You get to choose what that is for you. But never for me or anyone else.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

maquiscat said:


> That only hold true for certain religions and to certain states. Not all states still have adultery laws on the books. So legally speaking, no adultery is committed in those states. Furthermore, since some religions allow for polygamy, no adultery is committed for marriages that are 3 or more spouses, if they are not going outside the marriage.
> 
> Sure, if something happens outside a marriage, it's adultery. Whether adultery in and of itself is positive, negative or neutral is an opinion, and can never be anything but, outside of a narrowed context. But you'll notice that I never said anything about adultery. I mentioned vows and infidelity. You don't get to tell @wingman and his wife what vows they made yet alone whether they violated them, unless you were there, or they specify them here. Nor do you get to choose for them, or anyone else for that matter, what they consider infidelity. No one denies that you and many others would consider the actions as such for _your_ relationships. That's fine. You get to choose what that is for you. But never for me or anyone else.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


I don’t view it as adultery if there is permission. Marriage is a contract between 2 people and contracts can be negotiated. 
For me it’s more of a visceral reaction. I just can’t imagine NOT being jealous and enraged.

One of the things I lost during my husbands affair was feeling special, cherished. Not just when he cheated but when he said I should as well. Like I had no value to him. 

I don’t judge those that don’t feel the same I just don’t understand it because my feelings are so intense.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> They may have had a civil ceremony where the officiant says "Do you take this woman/man to be your lawful spouse?". No vows involved or they could have exchanged vows they wrote themselves.


They are still not married. It's illegal to be married to more than one person at a time, so it's still adultery.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I don’t view it as adultery if there is permission. Marriage is a contract between 2 people and contracts can be negotiated.
> For me it’s more of a visceral reaction. I just can’t imagine NOT being jealous and enraged.
> 
> One of the things I lost during my husbands affair was feeling special, cherished. Not just when he cheated but when he said I should as well. Like I had no value to him.
> ...


It's still adultery permission or not. It may not be cheating but it still adultery.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> That only hold true for certain religions and to certain states. Not all states still have adultery laws on the books. So legally speaking, no adultery is committed in those states. Furthermore, since some religions allow for polygamy, no adultery is committed for marriages that are 3 or more spouses, if they are not going outside the marriage.
> 
> Sure, if something happens outside a marriage, it's adultery. Whether adultery in and of itself is positive, negative or neutral is an opinion, and can never be anything but, outside of a narrowed context. But you'll notice that I never said anything about adultery. I mentioned vows and infidelity. You don't get to tell @wingman and his wife what vows they made yet alone whether they violated them, unless you were there, or they specify them here. Nor do you get to choose for them, or anyone else for that matter, what they consider infidelity. No one denies that you and many others would consider the actions as such for _your_ relationships. That's fine. You get to choose what that is for you. But never for me or anyone else.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


It's not a state that decides what adultery is. Look up the dictionary meaning. Any sex outside a marriage between the husband and wife is adultery.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Adultery is not necessarily infidelity. I detest the latter, but not necessarily the former.


Adultery is so damaging and never ends well. Even if one or both have given the green light.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> They are still not married. It's illegal to be married to more than one person at a time, so it's still adultery.


That only applies legal marriage not religious ones. Try not to mix the types ups. No law in the US makes my poly marriage illegal, since it's religious/social based not legal based.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> It's not a state that decides what adultery is. Look up the dictionary meaning. Any sex outside a marriage between the husband and wife is adultery.


Correction: any sex outside of a marriage, which would include same sex marriage. However, yes a state does decide what adultery is, on a legal basis only, if it is going to have a law dealing with adultery. Legal definitions don't always match common use ones, which is why legal definitions exists in the law.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> I tend to look at thing from what the ultimate point of view is when it comes to sexuality: Biological. Regardless of people's opinions in today's modern world there's a biological imperative that drives all living things, and that's imperative as the ultimate goal of all living species in this planet: Procreation: Genes drive to pass on themselves at the cost of all others. This is a biological imperative that even the most primitive of humans instinctively understand and follow as per their social standards with the drive to pass their own genes.
> 
> In nature the males drive is to ascertain that their genes are the ones being pass on. Females drive is to ascertain that their progeny has the sufficient resources from a male (s)/inner circle of support in order to guarantee the progeny to survive to adulthood and repeat the cycle.
> 
> ...


This is an interesting analysis, and probably applies to all aspects of society, such as intelligence. Normally people of above average intelligence have as one of their main criteria for a relationship that their partner also have higher intelligence, not too long ago that was probably not high on a mans list of criteria for a mate. It could be a whole number of genetic traits that stick together, another example would be drive and self motivation. You don't see a lot of ambitious motivated people saying hey I would really like a lazy partner. I think what you are most likely to see over a long time is the separation of the species where there will be subsections of genetic pools kind of similar to the Eloi and the Morlocks. 

As far as guys into hotwife scenarios or cuckolds, I don't think that is a genetic thing. Back in the day my wife and I met quite a few of those couples. It is basically a kink like any other such as BDSM. Some of those guys were super creepy some were totally normal, our experience was a bit more creepy than normal, some were pure voyeurs some had other motivations from what I could tell. I could never really get my head around it but eventually I realized I didn't need to. We never hooked up with a woman from a couple in the end, just never felt right, and we had a variety of ground rules that ruled out the women from most couples.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> As far as guys into hotwife scenarios or cuckolds, I don't think that is a genetic thing. Back in the day my wife and I met quite a few of those couples. It is basically a kink like any other such as BDSM. Some of those guys were super creepy some were totally normal, our experience was a bit more creepy than normal, some were pure voyeurs some had other motivations from what I could tell. I could never really get my head around it but eventually I realized I didn't need to. We never hooked up with a woman from a couple in the end, just never felt right, and we had a variety of ground rules that ruled out the women from most couples.


It is definitely NOT a genetic thing. It's a kink thing.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Thank you. Very well put. This is what my wife and I have been doing from the beginning - talking about our sexual needs and desires within our marriage. I have never had extramarital sex in my marriage - despite all the talk - and will never do it if I risk my marraige. So I am far from an expert on infidelity. But for me I have always assumed that infidelity involved EM sex combined with some level of lying and deception. And my wife and I are putting everything on the table - so the deception part is out. 

Also my perception of the motivation that my wife has in me hooking up with Lucy has evolved since I first made this post and it continues to. My wife never really elaborated before on her openness to me having sex with others - this thread has been amazing for that. Taking things out of the bedroom and illuminating them in the light of day does wonders. And as some of you have noted - my wife has given me enough rope to hang myself. I am still on the fence about this and I thank you all for keeping me grounded.


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## wingman (Dec 1, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> They may have had a civil ceremony where the officiant says "Do you take this woman/man to be your lawful spouse?". No vows involved or they could have exchanged vows they wrote themselves.


It was a civil ceremony. We each had a child from our prior marriages. We valued love and honesty above all else. Deception of any form would be a deal breaker for either of us.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Adultery is so damaging and never ends well. Even if one or both have given the green light.


My wife and I are living proof that it is not damaging and does end well. Yes, it _can_ be those things, but so can marriage!


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

I find all of the "re-defing" of terms like "marriage", "adultery" and "infidelity" puzzling and comical, but not surprising. In this day in age, people want to change the meaning of words to suit their lifestyles and/or personality, in an effort to normalize it. Heck, let's just change the meaning of "affair" and "cheating" while we are at it, so that those who really do destroy their marriage (whatever the definition of that word now means), feels accepted and normalized. Oh, and while we are at it, let's tell anyone who does not agree that they "stereotype" others and are also "narrow-minded". 

Look, if some people want to marry multiple people, or want to stray outside of their marriage, good luck. I could care less what you do. But don't try to frame myself, or others who think as I do, as in some way un-virtuous because we believe and cherish traditional marriage (which, by the way has been between two people for thousands of years). I suppose I am "narrow-minded" if a person wants to marry a cow or heck, an entire heard of sheep and I say that I do not understand it. And I suppose I stereotype, if I discover that my neighbor decided to marry the entire local boys volleyball club and I think it's strange, or unimaginable. You see how that works?

I have been reading threads on TAM for the past 7 or 8 years, and hate seeing marriages ended due to adultery/infidelity. One common characteristic that seems to ring true with 99% of those threads, is that they viewed their destroyed marriage the most devastating event in their entire lives, aside from death of a loved one. That's pretty damned serious, if you ask me.

Maybe I am too empathetic, but I feel horrible for those who had an idea of what marriage would or should be like, only to have it destroyed because one of the parties decided to risk it all for...... an orgasm. The OP, in this case, seems perfectly willing to risk that, so, more power to him. He definitely has a view of marriage that is an entirely different galaxy than mine.


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh, and one more thing, while I am on my soap box, this psychological narrative that men are in some way hardwired to not be monogamous is absolute, convenient horseS****! To be monogamous is purely a decision. To not be monogamous is also a decision. We men are not mindless animals running purely on instinct alone. We have intellect and, presumably self control.... or at least we should. I've heard others say that "multiple partners are common place in the animal kingdom" as though this in some way should make it normal with humans. Well, with that logic, some animals eat each other. Does that mean we should take part in cannibalism? Just saying.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rushwater said:


> I find all of the "re-defing" of terms like "marriage", "adultery" and "infidelity" puzzling and comical, but not surprising. In this day in age, people want to change the meaning of words to suit their lifestyles and/or personality, in an effort to normalize it. Heck, let's just change the meaning of "affair" and "cheating" while we are at it, so that those who really do destroy their marriage (whatever the definition of that word now means), feels accepted and normalized. Oh, and while we are at it, let's tell anyone who does not agree that they "stereotype" others and are also "narrow-minded".
> 
> Look, if some people want to marry multiple people, or want to stray outside of their marriage, good luck. I could care less what you do. But don't try to frame myself, or others who think as I do, as in some way un-virtuous because we believe and cherish traditional marriage (which, by the way has been between two people for thousands of years). I suppose I am "narrow-minded" if a person wants to marry a cow or heck, an entire heard of sheep and I say that I do not understand it. And I suppose I stereotype, if I discover that my neighbor decided to marry the entire local boys volleyball club and I think it's strange, or unimaginable. You see how that works?
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with what you are saying but if both the husband and wife are in agreement about such acitivities, who are we to judge against them?

And I do agree that infidelity can ruin a marriage but its not the only thing that does. My ex bailed out on me after almost 20 years together because I didn't make as much money as her and my retirement fund wouldn't pay out as much as hers.

I only share that as we really can't know the OP and his wife's situation and maybe this is what they both want? I am sure on other sites right now what the OP describes in the norm and not the exception and people are there debating NOT doing it.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

If both of you are for it, go for it. I guess I just would assume any man that would tolerate that from me didn't value me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> That only applies legal marriage not religious ones. Try not to mix the types ups. No law in the US makes my poly marriage illegal, since it's religious/social based not legal based.
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


You are only married to your wife. To be married to another person would be illegal. You can't just make your own rules up.


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I don't disagree with what you are saying but if both the husband and wife are in agreement about such acitivities, who are we to judge against them?


Wasn't judging. Only stating that I do not understand why someone would take the risk. As I previously stated, I couldn't care less what they do.


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> You are only married to your wife. To be married to another person would be illegal. You can't just make your own rules up.


Um, sure he can make up his own rules. But if he expects us to understand or in some way accept it as normal or even further, virtuous, he is deluding himself.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Rushwater said:


> I find all of the "re-defing" of terms like "marriage", "adultery" and "infidelity" puzzling and comical, but not surprising. In this day in age, people want to change the meaning of words to suit their lifestyles and/or personality, in an effort to normalize it. Heck, let's just change the meaning of "affair" and "cheating" while we are at it, so that those who really do destroy their marriage (whatever the definition of that word now means), feels accepted and normalized. Oh, and while we are at it, let's tell anyone who does not agree that they "stereotype" others and are also "narrow-minded".


The problem is that these things have been constantly redefined repeatedly across time and culture. Polygyny and polyandry have been around for as long as monogamy and are no less marriage that monogamy is. This is basic history. k



> But don't try to frame myself, or others who think as I do, as in some way un-virtuous because we believe and cherish traditional marriage


Which is a strawman. What we are saying is that a person is narrowminded when they try to impose what they cherish and believe upon others. Such as telling them that they are being unfaithful or violating vows, especially if they don't know what vows are taken. Just as you do not wish to be framed as "un-virtuous" for what you believe and cherish, neither do we. And that is what some have done. There have been others who do not understand, but still support our decisions, despite not being the ones they would have chosen.



> (which, by the way has been between two people for thousands of years).


Again history shows you wrong. While it has been the most common form, it has been by far not the only form and variation. 



> I suppose I am "narrow-minded" if a person wants to marry a cow or heck, an entire heard of sheep and I say that I do not understand it. And I suppose I stereotype, if I discover that my neighbor decided to marry the entire local boys volleyball club and I think it's strange, or unimaginable. You see how that works?


Your Appeal to Ridicule fallacy aside, as long as consent of all parties are present, then yes, you would be narrow minded to impose your specific ideas of what a marriage is and what promises are made when two or more people get married. It would be no different than some Christian telling you that because you don't believe in exactly the same way as they do, you're not really a Christian.



> He definitely has a view of marriage that is an entirely different galaxy than mine.


Which is fine. Yours are an entirely different galaxy from ours. But we're not telling you that yours is wrong. And the only ones that we are noting as narrow minded are those who tell us that ours are wrong, as if it were an objective fact.



Rushwater said:


> Oh, and one more thing, while I am on my soap box, this psychological narrative that men are in some way hardwired to not be monogamous is absolute, convenient horseS****! To be monogamous is purely a decision. To not be monogamous is also a decision. We men are not mindless animals running purely on instinct alone. We have intellect and, presumably self control.... or at least we should. I've heard others say that "multiple partners are common place in the animal kingdom" as though this in some way should make it normal with humans. Well, with that logic, some animals eat each other. Does that mean we should take part in cannibalism? Just saying.


I fully agree with you here. While I do believe that, just as there are those of us who are innately homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual, so too are there those of us who are innately monogamous, polyamourous, and who simply can't maintain or do not desire a relationship. There is no one true way. And thus any claims that only monogamy is the right choice is wrong.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Diana7 said:


> You are only married to your wife. To be married to another person would be illegal. You can't just make your own rules up.


Are you then claiming that you could never marry a person before God if a government didn't allow it?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> You are only married to your wife. To be married to another person would be illegal. You can't just make your own rules up.


In the end a marriage is only what the people in the marriage make it. For all you know @maquiscat and his wives and husband maybe be more caring towards and committed to each other than you or anyone you know. There are many, couples who while not married in the eyes of the law have a much deeper connection than people whose marriages are recognized by the law. I mean you would claim all these things about how people who have marriages out side the typical bounds of monogamy are wrong yet many of the people you shame are still happily married to their first loves and you're on husband number 2 why did you not honor the vows you made to husband number 1?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

This is spiralling from sharing views to getting a bit nasty.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I’d say don’t cross that line. Better to stay in a respectful/friendly role than to regret what may have happened.

They have been friends 30 years - it could potentially ruin everything - so I vote no.


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

maquiscat said:


> Which is a strawman. What we are saying is that a person is narrowminded when they try to impose what they cherish and believe upon others. Such as telling them that they are being unfaithful or violating vows, especially if they don't know what vows are taken. Just as you do not wish to be framed as "un-virtuous" for what you believe and cherish, neither do we. And that is what some have done. There have been others who do not understand, but still support our decisions, despite not being the ones they would have chosen.
> 
> Your Appeal to Ridicule fallacy aside, as long as consent of all parties are present, then yes, you would be narrow minded to impose your specific ideas of what a marriage is and what promises are made when two or more people get married. It would be no different than some Christian telling you that because you don't believe in exactly the same way as they do, you're not really a Christian.


First off, I was not "ridiculing" anybody. You are free to do and/or think whatever you like in your marriage. Again, I could care less. It doesn't change anything I said, one iota. I simply said that I do not understand the open marriage lifestyle, nor did I understand why the OP was willing to risk his relationship with the fantastic wife that he said he was in love with 
for a romp with the wife's best friend. You labeled me "narrow minded" and accused me of "stereotyping", none of which I did. Sorry, to me it's simpl math. However, you seem to want to crush anybody that is unfamiliar to the draw of your type of marriage/lifestyle, which speaks volumes. 

Second, it appears to me that you are indeed, redefining the terms that I listed. Which, to this reader, makes things even more confusing as it removes any standard with which to understand what anybody is talking about. I am not judging you or your lifestyle. So, do not judge me just because it makes no sense. To me, marriage is pretty clear cut.  Marriage consists of vows (oaths before God). If your definition is different, so be it. Just don't expect me know this outright, or to affirm whatever it is that you believe. Live and let live. Sheesh.


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## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> This is spiralling from sharing views to getting a bit nasty.


Yes, I concur. And that I was a part of this, I am truly sorry. Not here to offend anyone or to stir crap up or threadjack. Just wanted to understand where the OP was coming from.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Rushwater said:


> Yes, I concur. And that I was a part of this, I am truly sorry. Not here to offend anyone or to stir crap up or threadjack. Just wanted to understand where the OP was coming from.


I was going to respond to your previous post, but in the interest of avoiding further thread jack (of which I too must admit my guilt) would you consider reposting #313 in the Ethical Non-Monogamy thread? I do have a couple of points that might make you realize that I am not saying what you seem to think I am saying. And I could be wrong about your premises, but I am addressing what comes across, as you also seem to be doing.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

heartsbeating said:


> This is spiralling from sharing views to getting a bit nasty.


What makes it interesting


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Rushwater said:


> Oh, and one more thing, while I am on my soap box, this psychological narrative that men are in some way hardwired to not be monogamous is absolute, convenient horseS****! To be monogamous is purely a decision. To not be monogamous is also a decision. We men are not mindless animals running purely on instinct alone. We have intellect and, presumably self control.... or at least we should. I've heard others say that "multiple partners are common place in the animal kingdom" as though this in some way should make it normal with humans. Well, with that logic, some animals eat each other. Does that mean we should take part in cannibalism? Just saying.


We are cannibals, we eat ofther animals.
At times in the past, humans became such repast dishes.

This word (lining out) must be a form of censorship!!


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I don't disagree with what you are saying but if both the husband and wife are in agreement about such activities, who are we to judge against them?


Well, he's here asking for opinions but not being persuaded by them, as I read it. It's not as simple in the long run. He will find out, in all likelihood.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I read through most of the thread - all of OP's posts but not all of the comments. For what it is worth - my take - this most likely was/is just fantasy talk coming from your wife to tantalize you and maybe even herself. Looks like a side benefit is that you might start paying more attention to your fitness level too! Not sure why you don't keep yourself fit for your "perfect" gorgeous wife (that you adore) - but that discussion is for another thread! 

The fact that your wife has never discussed this with her "best" friend (who is/was a swinger) - to me - is a telling fact. It would seem like she would scope it out to see if Lucy has an interest first - if she was really serious about dangling her in front of your hungry mouth. You say she says she knows and trusts Lucy and she knows and trusts you. To me - that means - she expects the both of you to have her back and not betray her. What is betrayal in her mind and what is betrayal in her heart? They are not always the same! Her calm teasing verbal comments telling you that you have a hall pass with Lucy may be totally different than a damaging emotional reaction that suddenly overcomes her when she sees or knows you are with Lucy.

If you 100% don't want to risk your marriage or their friendship - don't enter risky waters, even if you think the waters are perfectly calm, ESPECIALLY when there is a sign posted "Dangerous undercurrents here"! You yourself know there is a sign posted or you would not be here discussing this on a forum - and many posters have confirmed the dangers for you! You can't always tell what is deep under the surface of your wife's emotions. She herself may not even know! Emotional reactions like undercurrents are tricky things - they are often unseen until you get sucked under by them. My opinion is stay safe - and keep this Lucy thing a tantalizing fantasy banter between the 2 of you and channel your sexual turn on towards each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

One of the things I find most amusing, if not ironic, about this thread is even though the topic is him getting with his wife's friend at her encouragement,, is that one of the reoccuring concerns and warnings throughout the thread are of the WIFE cheating. 

Strange!!


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## think positive (Jun 24, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> One of the things I find most amusing, if not ironic, about this thread is even though the topic is him getting with his wife's friend at her encouragement,, is that one of the reoccuring concerns and warnings throughout the thread are of the WIFE cheating.
> 
> Strange!!


Funny...yes agreed ironic. 

I think many people (including myself) were ASSUMING that the wife had spoken to the friend and thought it was all OK. I am a firm believer that most humans are motivated by selfish motives. That said, I can't see any reason why a women would allow this sort of thing unless she were bi and wanted to join in or watch. UNLESS she was going to leverage the situation to get some on the side too. 

FWIW in the absence of the wife first speaking to the friend this could be one big test. I would be pissed if my wife would want to fuc$ my best friend.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@wingman What ended up happening? 

Did you have a wild week of monkey sex that we can all look up on pornhub and everything ended up fine? 

Or were oceans boiling, fire falling from the sky, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria? 

Or did your wife and Lucy go to the mall while you worked in the yard and got the oil changed in the lawn mower for summer and no one said a word?

Can you give us a follow up?


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## Night Owl1 (Nov 6, 2020)

The comments are certainly interesting.
I’d be very careful. Women are deliberate thinkers. There’s really no truth to “dumb blondes.” Your wife (in my opinion) has a reason for making such a provocative suggestion. Either she wants a free pass to explore sex outside of your marriage or she thinks you’re boring and need to spice things up with some “strange.” Either way, I think you’d be making a mistake, especially with such a supposedly close family friend. I’d have to wonder how in the heck her friend could even consider this indecent proposal??? I vote: no! Don’t do it...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> @wingman What ended up happening?
> 
> Did you have a wild week of monkey sex that we can all look up on pornhub and everything ended up fine?
> 
> ...


The Easter Bunny came and went. No eggs were harmed in this production.


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