# Women are sexual being too



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality. 

I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.

Some men here seem to think that ALL women are the same because of the experience they have with the woman in their lives. 

That being said it would be great if some of the other women could pitch in here to help set some things straight. Keep in mind like all discussions this is a generalisation so the points below relate to some women. We are not all sex avoiding, man hating, porn hating prudes.

Women love and enjoy sex.
Women are visual beings.
Women like and watch porn, solo and with their partners.
Women do initiate.

The media is guilty of portraying woman as having less of a desire than men, making women the butt of jokes. Men buy this attitude and perpetuate the problem by throwing their hands in the air and saying "see she is just like all the other women, sexless". 

What we should be doing is celebrating the wonderful world of women's sexuality. Men don't be scared of us, we want a fulfilling sex life as much as you do, but the more people help to create a gender divide with misnomers then the less likely that harmony will be found.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Holland,

While I appreciate what you are trying to do, I don't think because a woman may not like porn that it means she's a prude. 

So if your wife doesn't like porn, it doesn't mean she doesn't like sex. 

I consider myself very sexual. I think about sex many many times a day and have desires, and fantasies.

I am not one for initiation, in the sense that I don't often just grab him and go for it. However I initiate in different ways often. By wearing something I think he likes, by trying to look good for him, by sending him sexy messages, and links to certain things we may like to incorporate into our sex life etc. 

I am very adventurous and open to different things.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Holland said:


> Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality.
> 
> I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.
> 
> ...


I agree. Women are sexual and sensual. When it comes to having less desire does the media create this attitude or is it merely reflecting it? Do you mean less desire than men or? 

IMO desire and the importance a person feels about sex come in all shapes and sizes so to speak. And wether or not the sexual drive is genetic or learned or due to the social environment is always up for debate.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Sexual behavior and appetites, like all human traits, have distributions. I have no doubt that the range of female expression matches that for males.

I also have little doubt that the means for most of these distributions are shifted higher for men by statistically meaningful amounts. 

I concur with the gross overgeneralization rampant on this forum. It requires me to do a lot of tongue biting, in general.


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## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Holland said:


> Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality.
> 
> I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.
> 
> ...


Thank you, holland. I can see this thread being very eye opening for men and women alike.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

**LittleDeer** sorry the last thing I want to do is to say what you have said, no I don't mean that not watching equates to prude, not at all. All i want is open, honest and adult discussion on the topic because there seems to be quite a lack of understanding from some parts.
My wording is not great but I did not mean to imply that women that don't like one aspect of sexuality, do not like other aspects.

I actually don't agree with some of your stance on porn but I fully support your right to your views and I applaud your conviction. And I think that as adult women we can disagree yet support.

*CanadianGuy *IMHO because much of the media is run by men that a fair portion of the "women don't like sex" attitude comes from their own problems within their relationships.
I know some script writers and they certainly taint things with their own bias. This is lessening as more women work in media but I still think it has some influence.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Holland said:


> Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality.
> 
> I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.
> 
> ...


:iagree::smthumbup:

Very interesting thoughts, Mrs. Holland, and I applaud your courage to speak out.

We need more normal women whom are sexually fulfilled and happilly married to speak out about their good life.

Do you have thoughts/theories about why these things bolded above happen? Does this has something to do with the entertainment industry? modern feminism? political lobbies? ordinary people being used as de-facto lab rats by the government?


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

Holland said:


> *CanadianGuy *IMHO because much of the media is run by men that a fair portion of the "women don't like sex" attitude comes from their own problems within their relationships.
> I know some script writers and they certainly taint things with their own bias. This is lessening as more women work in media but I still think it has some influence.


Thank you so much for this! That is in fact true. We have a media industry that confuses many people in our society.
If you follow the theme of romance in the media, you often see men only getting women after they have stripped off almost everything that actually used to make them who they were. Though I ve experienced women stating that as cute, some of my female clients honestly admitted that such behaviour was rather weird in a relationship. A few admitted it as beieng a turn off at the beginning of a relationship. 

So good for movies, bad for reality?

Then on the other side we have a media that states that women love jerks and are sex less. This is as you have stated due to personal experience of the creators of such entertainment. Which in my opinion is due to lack of experience and open mindedness in approaching the sexual side of women in a relationship.



john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree::smthumbup:
> 
> Very interesting thoughts, Mrs. Holland, and I applaud your courage to speak out.
> 
> ...


We do not need more women to speak about their sex life. *Women are fine as they are*, so long as they believe it. They have a higher responsibility for themselves because of beieng in danger to be just seen as ****s when they open up and probably treated exactly that way. So it is reasonable for them to lay a bit low when they are not within their four walls. 
*We rather need more men!!! who are ready to behave like men*, which in my experience leads to a happier marriage and therefore happier sex life.
And yes, I believe that modern feminism has a big play in this. Since the late 60s men have been brought up believing that women should be equals, which is good, but down under our subconcious, there are still fundamental things that men and women respond to which cant be overriden within centuries.

At first I remember discussions during the 90s that humans werent ment for monogamy, which was supposed to proove why so many marriages ended in divorce. Today, at least here in western europe, science follows rather the path of *humans and animals rather just beieng faithful* to each other till their siblings are grown up enough to survive by themselves, which is usually when the first born kids are between 12-15 years old. But there is still a lot of controversy because of couples who have been married longer, still have good sex etc.. Another thing is that even in nature there exists species that are true monogamic - penguins, storks.

It still remains open, what really is the problem that parts men and women. Fact is that most divorces are filed by women today, which alegues us to asume that either women are evil or men are doing something wrong. 

There was a time I believed women deserved to be treated badly because of them *hurting so many men*, but when I began to understand to be comfortable and confident in giving the women I love the feeling of security by beieng assertive but loving, I was glad to change my mind.

And yes, beieng assertive, not always doing what others want and beieng loving and understanding at the same time makes people around you *TRUST you!* You seem unshaken. Others look up to you when times come in which they feel insecure, and that makes them adore you and also follow your lead. When coming from a strong personality, even showing weakness becomes a strength (But most men prefer to add weekness on top of weekness).
I guess nature has imprinted this into our brains, especially in women, otherwise they would often end up pregnant and alone with no help if they decided to jump in bed with every guy that smiled at them (_*inspite of contraception*, this I believe is so deeply imprinted that humans still act the same way they acted thousands of years ago when it comes to the mating game_).. 

But a man who can stand some of her flaws and ALSO stand to himself is subconciously selected as worthy to mate and live with.. open for discussion.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> Than
> We do not need more women to speak about their sex life. *Women are fine as they are*, so long as they believe it. They have a higher responsibility for themselves because of beieng in danger to be just seen as ****s when they open up and probably treated exactly that way. So it is reasonable for them to lay a bit low when they are not within their four walls.


I disagree. We need to broaden our knowledge. Lessons learned and best practices by successful couples, men and women, will inspire others to better achievements. 

If successful wives wishes to share their methods of teamworking with their husbands to create a wonderful marriage, then it is good, we all could learn from them. This is not just to "speak about their sex life", but this is about sharing their wisdom and knowledge about what makes a relationship works, and sex is one of the important factor to be considered in keeping a successful marriage.

If Mrs. Holland wrote a book about female sexuality and how to become fully functioning sexual being within the context of marriage, I will be lining up to buy a copy.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> I disagree. We need to broaden our knowledge. Lessons learned and best practices by successful couples, men and women, will inspire others to better achievements.
> 
> If successful wives wishes to share their methods of teamworking with their husbands to create a wonderful marriage, then it is good, we all could learn from them. This is not just to "speak about their sex life", but this is about sharing their wisdom and knowledge about what makes a relationship works, and sex is one of the important factor to be considered in keeping a successful marriage.
> 
> If Mrs. Holland wrote a book about female sexuality and how to become fully functioning sexual being within the context of marriage, I will be lining up to buy a copy.


I agree with you 100%. But I disagree with you that everyone just needs to be pointed in the right direction then everything will work out. 

The problem isnt the lack of knowledge, if that were the case such forums wont exist, because everyone would follow what works best. The problem is the own will to use the knowledge or even to believe it brings the result one is longing for. Everyone believes different things or puts his/hers past experiences in to a wrong connection to each other, just in order to try and make sense of the whole picture. And as long as this remains the case, we can fill our libraries with the best books forever.

And I believe women ARE FINE because inspite of social conditioning, there is still a majority of women who act like females and do not strive to push all male traits on themselves just for the sake of emancipation. Coming to men, most of us dont know where to stand.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> I agree with you 100%. But I disagree with you that everyone just needs to be pointed in the right direction then everything will work out.
> 
> The problem isnt the lack of knowledge, if that were the case such forums wont exist, because everyone would follow what works best. The problem is the own will to use the knowledge or even to believe it brings the result one is longing for. Everyone believes different things or puts his/hers past experiences in to a wrong connection to each other, just in order to try and make sense of the whole picture. And as long as this remains the case, we can fill our libraries with the best books forever.
> 
> And I believe women ARE FINE because inspite of social conditioning, there is still a majority of women who act like females and do not strive to push all male traits on themselves just for the sake of emancipation. Coming to men, most of us dont know where to stand.


Ah, this I can agree with! Thank you for your elucidation, Counsellor. :smthumbup:


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality.
> 
> I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.
> 
> ...


As someone (I think) who has perhaps summoned your frustration, I apologize.

We can only base our interpretations on what we have experienced and learned, or tried to learn. I do strive to be open-minded, but if I come across as not, once again, I apologize.

What I do believe is that women indeed do love and enjoy sex, but I do also believe that women, to a degree, are attracted to men who portray standoffish characteristics. Not jerks per say, but whom are standoffish. I think this is because women, in general, subconsciously view sex as a means to solidify a relationship, whereas men view sex as a means of comfort and validation within the relationship. In essence, women (and I'm talking women in general, not every women, especially someone like you Holland), want sex more so in the beginning of the relationship and once the goal of cementing a relationship is in place there is a natural decline, men want sex to be an ongoing thing at the same pace as it was at the start.

Please keep in mind I'm not saying this is a bait and switch thing. Far from it. Bait and switch would imply knowledge and deceit regarding the sexual decline. I think women's libido declines due to not being driven by the subconscious desire to anchor the relationship.

It's why we see an increase in sex when a man starts to discuss leaving the relationship. That security goes away, and the instinct to re-anchor the relationship comes back, spurring a woman to want to offer more sex again (unless the relationship is failing due to an unattractive reason, such as adultery). When the relationship is stable and the woman is comfortable within it, the sex tends to decline.

All of which brings me back to why I feel women are attracted sexually more so to men who are standoffish. By being standoffish, those men don't really give off the vibe they are stable within the relationship, creating an ongoing cycle of desire from the woman. Some may call this 'alpha-male' behaviour, some may call it being a 'jerk' but it's just the way some people (both men and women) are, standoffish and all of that, like they are happy to be with you, but it's clear that they know life will go on without you so you better be good to them. That quality might not be very attractive in a woman for a man, but vice versa I think it triggers some women’s desire towards that man, in an unthought-of of effort to make that man want to stay within the relationship.

Regarding the media, I do tend to agree with you Holland, though I don't really buy into the reason being because it's male run. Rather, I think it's because that mantra sells. TV producers and executives aren't trying to get a message across or play out their real-life frustrations via TV shows, they are providing what people want to watch. If people don't watch, they don't get paid; it's no different than any other business. So I think what they are showing is reflecting what the general public believes, and often those beliefs are generated in what we experience. And stats show that sex in a relationship tends to decline over time, and also show that sexual desire (IE the sexual frequency sought in a relationship) is typically lower for the female in the relationship than the male. As such, you likely have more sexual frustrated men than women in relationships, leading to the complaint of "see she is just like all the other women, sexless". 

I'd like to add that I don't think men think their partners are "sexless," rather men think a variety of things, such as her sexual desire has dropped, or she is no longer attracted to me, but if I left and someone else came into the picture, she's be in the mood again quite quickly. So we I think take it as either a sign that we aren't attractive anymore, or that the women isn't putting in the effort to keep sex alive in the relationship at a level we would like to see.

Then of course there are other factors which tend to lower a women's sexual output over the relationship that don't impact on men, such as childbirth. Few men report this as being anything more than maybe a short-term libido hamper, but many women, even those on this board who have proclaimed to be very sexually active, noted that childbirth can have a devastating impact for at times years. 

Trust me, men would love to celebrate women's sexuality, but I don't think your fight is so much with men as it is with women. When the sexual frequency in a marriage drops, it is often the woman that starts saying 'no,' something which has also been indicated through this forum. While there may be a number of excellent reasons for saying no, several of which may be partly or wholly the man's fault, if men aren't made aware of what they are doing wrong, or what the woman feels she needs or is lacking, it's hard for the man to understand the drop off. Unless an explanation of the reason behind the drop off occurs, and efforts are made on both parts to work towards fixing the gulf, it's very understandable why men vent their frustration. I'm not saying it's always correct, but it is understandable. 

Encouraging women to express their sexuality, be comfortable enjoying sex, and having a greater understanding of the value sex has in a relationship would do far more for women and relationships in general than educating men on how we shouldn't create a gender divide. If anything, I'd argue that fixing the former would greatly eliminate the latter.

Sorry for the essay.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Holland said:


> Some men here seem to think that ALL women are the same because of the experience they have with the woman in their lives.


Guilty, but, and maybe I'm a bit naive, I always thought ALL women were like you and my wife. My wife likes to tease me by saying I don't know how good I have it. I always knew it was good but only now, after coming to TAM, do I really get what she means. 



Holland said:


> The media is guilty of portraying woman as having less of a desire than men, making women the butt of jokes.


Maybe, but that's not reality.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

While I've definitely seen some men here who've gone through a lot of issues regarding sex in their relationships, I haven't really ever gotten the feeling that they believe _all_ women are like their wives or SO's. More than anything, I have felt an urgency for women to understand the male perspective and, being honest, I think such an urgency is appropriate in our society. 

However, I do agree that for sexual relationships to function, both genders need to strive to understand the sexuality of their partner. And I definitely agree that women can be, and often are, highly sexual beings. I, personally, am avidly against using pornography, but as for the other things listed...yeah, I love sex. I love initiating. I love exploring new things. I love being titillated and teased and seduced.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

humanbecoming said:


> I think the real frustration comes from knowing they are all not like that, and wondering why your partner is so different.... Makes you wonder if it's YOU that's the problem.


Especially if it happens with more than one partner.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Let's assume there are two ladies in a room. We'll call them Susan and Sally.

Susan says, "I have a higher desire for sex than Sally"

Sally says, "I have a higher desire for sex than Susan"​

How would we as a third party assess these subjective claims?

The only objective way would be to observe and compare the actual behavior of Susan and Sally. 

I really, really don't want to be a wet blanket here. But comparative behavior between the genders has been observed in every conceivable way humans can come up with and analyzed by both male and female clinicians alike.

Roy Baumeister, Kathleen Catanese and Kathleen Vohs compiled a bunch of it and published it in the Personality and Social Psychology Review around 2001 or so.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

One psychologist to another after lovemaking:

"Darling, that was wonderful for you. How was it for me?"


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Holland said:


> Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality.
> 
> I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.
> 
> Some men here seem to think that ALL women are the same because of the experience they have with the woman in their lives.


I am probably guilty of this. I only know of one woman in our circle of friends/family/acquaintances that actually wants sex. Every other (married) woman I know scoffs at the mention of sex. Aside from her husband, I didn't know that a man not wanting sex existed until I came to TAM. 

So, aside from media bias, what are we to believe? I believe that most of us are shaped by our individual experiences.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
Great post. Many of the "women are" posts come from men who have had a very small number of partners (1-3). 




QUOTE=Holland;1410237]Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality. 

I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.

Some men here seem to think that ALL women are the same because of the experience they have with the woman in their lives. 

That being said it would be great if some of the other women could pitch in here to help set some things straight. Keep in mind like all discussions this is a generalisation so the points below relate to some women. We are not all sex avoiding, man hating, porn hating prudes.

Women love and enjoy sex.
Women are visual beings.
Women like and watch porn, solo and with their partners.
Women do initiate.

The media is guilty of portraying woman as having less of a desire than men, making women the butt of jokes. Men buy this attitude and perpetuate the problem by throwing their hands in the air and saying "see she is just like all the other women, sexless". 

What we should be doing is celebrating the wonderful world of women's sexuality. Men don't be scared of us, we want a fulfilling sex life as much as you do, but the more people help to create a gender divide with misnomers then the less likely that harmony will be found.[/QUOTE]


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

kingsfan fantastic post, it really has opened my mind more to the other side of life.



> *I think this is because women, in general, subconsciously view sex as a means to solidify a relationship, whereas men view sex as a means of comfort and validation within the relationship.* In essence, women (and I'm talking women in general, not every women, especially someone like you Holland), want sex more so in the beginning of the relationship and once the goal of cementing a relationship is in place there is a natural decline, men want sex to be an ongoing thing at the same pace as it was at the start.


This stood out for me in particular. Maybe I am the one that is different and would like to hear what other women say.
But I view sex both as a means to solidify a relationship and as a means of comfort and validation within the relationship.

Maybe because I actually like sex? So perhaps therein lies the question men need to ask before committing to a woman "do you like sex for the act of sex?"

I can view sex and the benefits it brings are separate things. 
1) The act of sex is fun and feels good. 
2) Sex solidifies, bonds, brings comfort and validation.
I can have sex for either or both of these reasons, one is a more primal reason, one is an emotional reason.
But when you are in a relationship where sex is had for both of these reasons then life is great.


john_lord_b3 my book would not be a best seller. It would be the story of a woman that learnt her lessons the hard way. I have always been able to embrace my sexuality but the ironic thing is that I ended up marrying a LD man. I am now in a healthy relationship with a compatible man. I am also maintain a friendship and co parenting relationship with my ex husband.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

You're different than the general population of women Holland...just like I am I love sex. And yes I'll even utter the dreaded NEED word...I NEED sex with SO. There are too many positive reasons to love and enjoy sex with your partner and no negatives that I can think of at all.
I agree with viewing sex as something enjoyable as well as beneficial. Sex rocks we should all be doing it!! Well,not with each other,I mean with our partners..lol you understood what I was saying 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> You're different than the general population of women Holland...just like I am I love sex. And yes I'll even utter the dreaded NEED word...I NEED sex with SO. There are too many positive reasons to love and enjoy sex with your partner and no negatives that I can think of at all.
> I agree with viewing sex as something enjoyable as well as beneficial. Sex rocks *we should all be doing it!!* Well,not with each other,I mean with our partners..lol you understood what I was saying
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol yes we should. Forget world peace, we should have world sex.

But seriously I know first hand that it isn't an easy dynamic. The misunderstanding between genders seems like such a big divide when reading here sometimes.

I very much appreciate the wisdom and words from many of the men here, it certainly helps me for one to be the best woman I can be for myself and my partner.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

It is an intriguing question. Are Holland and Scarlet (and a few others here) outliers?

I was actually thinking a little bit along these lines over last weekend. I am pretty HD and maybe because of Cletus's post in another thread I started thinking: I don't think I can relate to my LD wife because I cannot even grasp not wanting to have sex. I guess I cannot even really fathom not having the desire. It is literally a completely foreign concept to me...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> kingsfan fantastic post, it really has opened my mind more to the other side of life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you yourself know that you are different from many women, even on these boards. For every woman on here like you, rallying to proclaim women as sexual beings (which all of you are I believe) there is another woman asking why can't men just be happy with what they get and openly looking forward to the day when she can wave goodbye to her sex life. 

To ask the question of "do you like sex for the act of sex?" doesn't always go far enough though. For example, one of the more common complaints of both men and women is that the sex has gotten 'boring.' 'Boredom' in the bedroom usually comes over a long period of time in the same relationship, at least a few years, sometimes much longer. Prior to marriage, many people, both men and women, haven't been in relationship long enough to even understand what sexual boredom is. I know when I was 23, which is when I first got married, the concept of using the words sex and boring in the same sentence was foreign to me, unless it was "There is no way sex can ever be boring." 

Now, I know sex can be boring. Well, maybe not boring but rather routine. Stall. However you want to phrase it. 

There was no way I could have understood that to be possible prior to marriage, and I doubt even my ex-wife could have known that either. My fiancee said the same thing, prior to her marriage, sex was awesome. After marriage, it was awesome for a while too, but then died off. Now yes, this can be explained partly by your partner, but even a willing partner who wants to do everything in the world to please you isn't always enough. A reference to the pages of stories on TAM can validate that.

As well, as I noted earlier, having children can destroy some women's libidos, and having a few children running around doesn't do wonders for men's libidos either. The hormonal changes that occur for a woman and the concept of trying to coordinate 'sex time' around three kids aged six and younger doesn't compute well prior to marriage either.

So it's not just the question that needs to be asked, but also the understanding that it requires. 

For your two reasons you listed for sex, I think that some women let those factors slip out of their mind. Sex can go from being fun and bonding to being less than that for several reasons:

1) Fear of pregnancy
2) Boredom
3) Lack of regular orgasms
4) Lack of a positive self-image
5) Lack of a need for validation

And there are many others I'm sure, I'm just going off the top of my head here. If any of these are playing on a woman's head, it's hard to get the desire level up. For men, they are buoyed by a natural influx of testosterone to keep them in the mood, and there is the concept I spoke of earlier about needing sex to maintain the relationship validity. One additional point to consider is that women know that they could find a sexual partner much easier than men. And remember, we are just talking about sex here and the desire for sex, not anything beyond that. It's likely hard to get in the mood when you know you could arguably do better. For men, that confidence isn't always there and subconsciously I feel that could be a big part of seeking sex as proof of the relationships validity. It's like a constant reassurance that yes, she is choosing me as her mate. I am the best. 

As you stated, you see sex on both levels, primal and emotional. I think men see sex generally from a more primal level due to their fuel being testosterone but also need that emotional reassurance that comes with getting regular sex and enthusiastic sex at that. Women on the other hand don't see sex quite the same way and are more inclined to be motivated to have sex as on occasional thing, and it's neither a physical or emotional need, at least not as common of a need as it is for men. The 'need' for sex likely comes at a much lower level that it does for men, hence why men are typically turned down sexually more often than women and why if a man is rejecting his wife sexually, the two most common reasons to check for are low T-levels (indicating he's not getting testosterone and thus has a T-level closer to what a woman would have) or is having an affair (meaning he's already getting his sexual -and maybe emotional- fulfillment elsewhere).

So it's not that women aren't sexual beings, but rather are less frequent sexual beings than their male counterparts. As such, when you hear complaints that "she's sexless" it's not that she's sexless, it's that there is likely a regular rate of rejection in the relationship/marriage which likely corresponds very well with how much she enjoys sex versus how much he enjoys sex. If he wants sex daily and she wants sex weekly, odds are he is getting rejected (whether outright rejected or implied rejection) six out of seven times, or 85% of the time. 

If you were getting rejected 85% of the time, and were unable to compute the reason as to why you were getting rejected that often, how would you react? Likely by saying your spouse is sexless, or some other similar demeaning statement vented out of sheer frustration. It's an over exaggeration of the situation, not an accurate representation of it.

That said if that sort of situation were commonplace across the board on a general basis, it's not really shocking to see it represented as such via mainstream media, such as TV, or through message boards like this, or even via word of mouth. 

I'm not trying to imply that rejection rates are 85% on average, because they aren't, and as we know as well, there are some men who reject their wives/partners as well, but in general, I don't think it's a bold statement that many men get rejected by their wives on a frequent basis, and by frequent I mean in excess of 25% of the time, which spurs on the stereotype of women being rejecters, or 'sexless' as you put it in your original post.

One final note in my second essay of this thread, the average couple has sex approximately twice per week. If you implied a 25% rejection rate for an average couple, then that would mean that one out of four times it is requested/pushed for/made advances for sex, the wife declines the husband.* 
If sex twice a week equates to 104 consummations a year, with a 25% rejection rate added on, that would mean yearly, a man is rejected 35 times annual (104 out of 139 attempts = 74.82 per cent). 

Now that is the implied average for how often the average man in an average relationship is rejected sexually, on an annual basis. Equate that over even a ten year relationship, and that's 350 rejections. That quantity could cause significant resentment. Now imagine for a less than average relationship where the rejection rate is much higher.

I don't have any statistics to back up this, but I would wager that there are a low percentage of women who can claim being sexually rejected 35 times in their life, never mind per year, assuming there are no medical or other outstanding reasons for the rejection.

* = I'm only used relationships involving the woman rejecting her partner/spouse as that seemed to be the main point of discussion in the thread.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> It is an intriguing question. Are Holland and Scarlet (and a few others here) outliers?



Good question. A lot of the information I've read is discouraging


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Good question. A lot of the information I've read is discouraging


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

humanbecoming said:


> I think one of the biggest differences in the women that we see posting here that are positive and engaged is that they they actively pursue and seduce their men- they are indeed sexual beings. Conversely, the women who are not as sexual see no need to pursue their men, and often, that is the biggest complaint.


Yes and what I was originally trying to get across is that just because some women are not sexual beings, it does not mean that all women are not.
Just one too many comments along the lines of "ALL women hate porn or this or that or the other".

It would be like a woman saying "all men are xxxx" just because their man is like that.

It makes me wonder how much the average man really knows beyond his personal experience. Does he know that many women do like sex, do initiate etc?

Kingsfan I am not really sure how much the topic of rejection comes into this. Many women are not rejecting because they don't like sex, they are doing it because they are not wanting sex with that man. These are two different issues but the latter leads men to make sweeping generalisations about women and their sexuality.

Maybe a few of us here are more sexually confident but like I said in the OP IRL my friends and family would pretty much be top heavy with sexually healthy women.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Show me a woman in love with her husband and I'll show you a woman who wants to have sex with him on a regular basis.

I think women are very sexual but they don't separate sex from other feelings like men do. A man can have sex with his wife and enjoy it even when they're angry at each other. For that matter it makes the anger disappear as if sex was makeup. He can separate resentment over other aspects of the relationship from sex.


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

I like sex, just ask my husband I have no idea about my friends. I am very private when it comes to my relationship with my husband. Its between the two of us ONLY. I don't share with my friends. I don't know if I'm "normal" or not, don't care.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Most of the women that I know that do not like sex have young children. 

When I had children and was on birth control, it took me a few years to get my sex drive back. 

I still had sex though at least 3 times per week, because it felt good when I did. But I can't say I thought about it or craved it, like I did before or do now. 

However now I like to have sex every day, and if given the opportunity could have it twice a day and we often do.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> *Show me a woman in love with her husband and I'll show you a woman who wants to have sex with him on a regular basis.*
> 
> I think women are very sexual but they don't separate sex from other feelings like men do. A man can have sex with his wife and enjoy it even when they're angry at each other. For that matter it makes the anger disappear as if sex was makeup. He can separate resentment over other aspects of the relationship from sex.


yea.. love+respect+physical attraction = regular horniness 

Take one aspect out (love or respect or attraction) and something will go wrong quickly!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I love sex.

I hate porn.

Hardly a prude


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Yes, the OP is very right... but!

Women sexuality is generally laying somewhat latent, until triggered by her response to a sexually attractive man.

Edit: It's apparently already been said in Thundar's post


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Latent sexuality?! Nah not me. I can have sex for the sake of having sex and still hate you when we're done! I'm not actively attracted to my husband right now and if he pounced me, I'd happily have my 10 orgasms.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes. right up there with Bigfoot, unicorns and good customer service from AT&T.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Men are built on testosterone, the sex hormone. We are more visually stimulated, sounds women make, how they move and look (porn). We are like light switches when it comes to sex. On and off, quick and simple. Men don't need hardly any romance or foreplay to get in the mood either and we can have sex every day.

Women have high sex drives like men but it takes them more to get in the mood. An analogy would be an oven. You have to preheat it first and its not just immediately on at the recommended temperature. But when women get there, there are almost just as horny and adventurous as men. Women love to be romanced and chased. More Estrogen than testosterone though.

If the cliche of women not being in the mood wasn't true, it would never be brought up in the first place. If both men and women were 50 / 50 sexually, the term she's never in the mood wouldn't be brought up hardly at all.

Just my 2 cents.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality.
> 
> I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.
> 
> ...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Yes. right up there with Bigfoot, unicorns and good customer service from AT&T.


Which was exactly the point of the OP. Just want men to know and understand that just because your personal experience may not be so but don't tar us all the same. It is the sweeping generalisations that hold us all back.

Women are sexual beings, not all of us that is true but you can't say that it is a myth.

I do agree though that good service from a telco is a myth.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Men are built on testosterone, the sex hormone. We are more visually stimulated, sounds women make, how they move and look (porn). We are like light switches when it comes to sex. On and off, quick and simple. Men don't need hardly any romance or foreplay to get in the mood either and we can have sex every day.
> 
> Women have high sex drives like men but it takes them more to get in the mood. An analogy would be an oven. You have to preheat it first and its not just immediately on at the recommended temperature. But when women get there, there are almost just as horny and adventurous as men. Women love to be romanced and chased. More Estrogen than testosterone though.
> 
> ...


I'll see your 2c and raise you another 2.

Again anecdotal and seems the norm in my circle. But the above is not a given.
I am visually stimulated. 
The sounds my partner make spin my head and I crave that. I could have sex just for the sounds.
I inititiate because I want sex.
I am very very often in the mood.

I agree with the romanced and chased but it is a given well before these things that sex will happen. the romance and chasing is just a bonus but not needed.

Women can and do have sex everyday.

CuddleBug I am not deliberately trying to be contrary but everything you have said is not true in my life and after discussing this more and more with girlfriends most of it does not relate to them either.

Yes anecdotal but then again so is the view that women are not as sexual as men. This mindset comes from men that have had the experience of not so sexual women in their lives.

Thanks Jaquen


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Show me a woman in love with her husband and I'll show you a woman who wants to have sex with him on a regular basis.





michzz said:


> Not always true. Depends on age, and lots of other factors.


There are exceptions to everything. Plus I didn't necessarily mean that they are horny. 

More accurately is I think they want to have physical intimacy with a man if they're in love with him. Many HD women or at least women with moderate drive just don't want to have sex with their SO because they're no longer in love. But admit it's not 100% this way.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Holland said:


> I'll see your 2c and raise you another 2.
> 
> Again anecdotal and seems the norm in my circle. But the above is not a given.
> I am visually stimulated.
> ...



I also meant to say, this doesn't apply 100% to all men and women. Sneaking that in there now........heh.

I wish I had met a women or women like yourself instead of the LD situation I am in. That to me would of made a huge difference.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I started masturbating at 5. Haven't stopped.

High sex drive since whenever. That won't change that I can foresee. 

For a whlie, I was having issues getting aroused...thought it was hormonal issues from having an ovary removed. Well, in recent discoveries, I have found that my body works just fine. It was the dynamics of he and I.


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## juicecondensation (Oct 11, 2012)

Women are sexual beings... just not _as_ sexual as men.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

juicecondensation said:


> Women are sexual beings... just not _as_ sexual as men.


:rofl:

LOVE the generalization. Omg.

I'm more sexual that many men. I know this because they would get all butt hurt that I wanted sex more than they did. Thankfully my husband liked the frequency. I wouldn't have married him otherwise. 

But dude. Stop with the "men are more sexual". That's a lie. There's all types of people of both sexes on the scale of sexuality. There are women in here whose husband's won't sleep with them...and men with wives who won't.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> You're different than the general population of women Holland...just like I am I love sex. And yes I'll even utter the dreaded NEED word...I NEED sex with SO. There are too many positive reasons to love and enjoy sex with your partner and no negatives that I can think of at all.
> I agree with viewing sex as something enjoyable as well as beneficial. Sex rocks we should all be doing it!! Well,not with each other,I mean with our partners..lol you understood what I was saying
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I am the same.... I need sex...


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

that_girl said:


> :rofl:
> 
> LOVE the generalization. Omg.
> 
> ...


 More and more woman are becoming more and more sexual. If woman were not sexual... Woman would not be having almost the same amount of affairs that men do. Some woman want or need sex just as much as men.

They also say that men want sex way more then woman do... this is not always true either! I am married to a man who doesn't want sex as often as I do! Damn shame!


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Not to argue or even disagree. But as a newly found single man. I really need to address this with my next SO. The bigger issue I find is that so many women dare I say. Fake it until your locked down.

Glad you girls exist it gives me hope. Currently the only woman I thought existed like that were in my family.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ladybird said:


> More and more woman are becoming more and more sexual. If woman were not sexual... Woman would not be having almost the same amount of affairs that men do. Some woman want or need sex just as much as men.
> 
> They also say that men want sex way more then woman do... this is not always true either! I am married to a man who doesn't want sex as often as I do! Damn shame!


Both sides are right.

In the gender distributions of sexual desire, there is plenty of room for lot's of women to have more sexual desire than lots of men, and still have the average for men be higher than women.

These are not contradictions, but an absolute necessity from overlapping distributions. It would be truly surprising if they were the same.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hope4family said:


> Not to argue or even disagree. But as a newly found single man. I really need to address this with my next SO. *The bigger issue I find is that so many women dare I say. Fake it until your locked down.*
> 
> Glad you girls exist it gives me hope. Currently the only woman I thought existed like that were in my family.


I hope some of the others here can give some help with this one. I was married to a LD man but did not see the signals as I never even knew men could be LD, yeah I was naive. Now when I look back I should have know what was ahead for the years to follow.

When i was back out in the single world it was important that I found a compatible man if anything was to be longer term. SO and I discussed sex and the surrounding issues very early on, we have very open discussions on the topic. To me this is a clue, if someone can openly discuss sex, their desires etc then that possible says a lot about what sex really means to them.

All the best to you back out in the dating world


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

the thing is that some women are treated like a blow up doll, just there to poke your think into any hole it has !

i liked to make love to my hubby, enjoyed it, pretty much had an O 99% of the time.:smthumbup:
like having fun and always touched him. if he left me alone for 3 days i thought i may have to attack him ( in a good way)

i dont like porn but i loved the feeling of being together with my hubby and having fun.

i didnt think about sex as much as my hubby as if i thought about it 100 times a day i would have had no time to work, look after the kids, the housework, pay the bills, do groceries, etc, etc, etc ............................... the list goes on and on and on

all he did was work ( not full time) and watch TV and then treat me like a blow up doll............

i liked it, i need it and its fun for me..... or it was until he had an EA ...............

now all desire is somewhere else. im stll looking for it back ?:scratchhead:


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

[
Not at my house!!!




QUOTE=Holland;1410237]Ok I just get a little bit frustrated at times here due to the lack of real understanding of women's sexuality. 

I do not find this IRL and am putting some of it down to people's bias as they are often coming to a forum for support.

Some men here seem to think that ALL women are the same because of the experience they have with the woman in their lives. 

That being said it would be great if some of the other women could pitch in here to help set some things straight. Keep in mind like all discussions this is a generalisation so the points below relate to some women. We are not all sex avoiding, man hating, porn hating prudes.

Women love and enjoy sex.
Women are visual beings.
Women like and watch porn, solo and with their partners.
Women do initiate.

The media is guilty of portraying woman as having less of a desire than men, making women the butt of jokes. Men buy this attitude and perpetuate the problem by throwing their hands in the air and saying "see she is just like all the other women, sexless". 

What we should be doing is celebrating the wonderful world of women's sexuality. Men don't be scared of us, we want a fulfilling sex life as much as you do, but the more people help to create a gender divide with misnomers then the less likely that harmony will be found.[/QUOTE]


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Internalizing general observations and data doesn't change reality.

(Although I do feel envious of the husbands in these atypical relationships)


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

AnnieAsh said:


> Latent sexuality?! Nah not me. I can have sex for the sake of having sex and still hate you when we're done! I'm not actively attracted to my husband right now and if he pounced me, I'd happily have my 10 orgasms.


:smthumbup:

Mrs. Ash, thank you for the info. Now I have to rewrite all my notes again. Ugh. I hate being wrong, but I hate giving out wrong information even more.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

CuddleBug said:


> Men don't need hardly any romance or foreplay to get in the mood either and we can have sex every day.


ehh, not me. I have to be in the mood and in proper mindset to make love, and I can go along without sex for weeks, even months. When I was in my "wild man" phase, I can have sex 3 to 4 times a week. These days I have sex maybe 3 times a month. So maybe I am with the minority.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Frustrated
This isn't about sex. Not your situation. 

It is about a desire to please. The fact is your wife is comfortable causing you distress because you trained her that it was ok to do so.


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## janesmith (Nov 29, 2010)

im 43 and i take monthly "spa" days where i take off work sit in bed, sip wine, watch porn, and wank off. To say I like sex is an understatement. I would like it more often than he does but we make adjustments and it works out. I too have a group of married friends who did not like to have sex with their husbands. I never understood that and used to feel so bad for the husbands. They thought I was some kind of nympho because I wanted and sought out sex with my husband.

It wasnt until I came to TAM that I found so many men not having sex with their wives. I thought my friends were strange. I knew my parents had sex. Married people had sex. I never thought i was an aberration.

There were times when our sexual connection helped the marriage get over humps. There are lots of women who think like I do


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

janesmith said:


> im 43 and i take monthly "spa" days where i take off work sit in bed, sip wine, watch porn, and wank off. To say I like sex is an understatement. I would like it more often than he does but we make adjustments and it works out. I too have a group of married friends who did not like to have sex with their husbands. I never understood that and used to feel so bad for the husbands. They thought I was some kind of nympho because I wanted and sought out sex with my husband.
> 
> It wasnt until I came to TAM that I found so many men not having sex with their wives. I thought my friends were strange. I knew my parents had sex. Married people had sex. I never thought i was an aberration.
> 
> There were times when our sexual connection helped the marriage get over humps. *There are lots of women who think like I do*


I strongly agree with that. Problem is as with anything there are lots of posers who bait and then switch.

Edit: I am confident that this is true for both sides.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Holland said:


> Kingsfan I am not really sure how much the topic of rejection comes into this. Many women are not rejecting because they don't like sex, they are doing it because they are not wanting sex with that man. These are two different issues but the latter leads men to make sweeping generalisations about women and their sexuality.


Considering you are pleading the case that women need not be thought of as non-sexual beings by men, a man getting constantly rejected by his wife/partner is naturally going to hard to see it from your point of view.

And given the samplings on this message board, as I said earlier, I don't think I'm out of line to suggest there is more rejection of men by women than the other way around.

I'm not trying to imply that I agree with those men who proclaim that women are sexless creatures, far from it. Rather, I'm pointing out why those men feel that way.

You are correct, there is a reason why women reject their men, and there could be a thousand reasons why they don't want sex with that man. But that's the secondary point. Regardless of the reason, the woman is (in general terms) turning down the man more often than the reverse, and as such leads to the stereotype you are speaking against.

As I said in my initial post, "Encouraging women to express their sexuality, be comfortable enjoying sex, and having a greater understanding of the value sex has in a relationship would do far more for women and relationships in general than educating men on how we shouldn't create a gender divide. If anything, I'd argue that fixing the former would greatly eliminate the latter."


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

that_girl said:


> LOVE the generalization. Omg.
> 
> I'm more sexual that many men. I know this because they would get all butt hurt that I wanted sex more than they did. Thankfully my husband liked the frequency. I wouldn't have married him otherwise.
> 
> But dude. Stop with the "men are more sexual". That's a lie. There's all types of people of both sexes on the scale of sexuality. There are women in here whose husband's won't sleep with them...and men with wives who won't.


You're telling someone to stop generalizing, but he's referring to the whole population of each gender.... ie "on the average", not specific individuals. While he surely doesn't know this for a fact, there's an aweful lot of circumstantial evidence. Yes, there are plenty of women with higher sex drives than many men, but on the whole... I have to agree with him. Men seem to want sex more than women. Which seems natural since women have so many additional emotionally things they usually seem to want to check-off; a guy seems more likely to be thrilled at just having a ONS. A woman more likely to keep it hush hush as if it was embarrassing behavior.

I've been with about 20-25 women, and I was more sexual than all but one of them, and I don't think I'm "high drive" at all. I'm pretty moderate. My friends all complain about their wives lack of sexual desire. The only place I've ever heard of the fabled "guy who refuses to have sex with his wife" is here on TAM! 

Nothing... not even a "man, I'm just bored with her", or a "she put on a lot of weight in the last few years and its just not attractive". Instead, my buddies make jokes about who gets the least sex.

Something doesn't add up.


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## goodwife4 (Jan 7, 2013)

most of my girlfriends who are married are not into sex and they all thought i was a nympho for wanting it with my hubby.
they all said how much their husbands would love them to be like me....................

still wasnt enough for my hubby though ?
sad but true


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

My wife is not a sex hating, man hating prude. Far from it. However, her sexual response is certainly not like mine. Here is a great article that describes her sexual response:

Do You Understand Female Sexual Desire? | Psychology Today

This type of sexual desire must also be understood. It was a huge eye opener to me and a help to our sex life.


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