# Let the Wild Rumpus Start



## nice777guy

Things are officially out of control now.

Today, my Oldest Daughter called me at work, claiming Mom hit her.

My Ex called the police. I think she is going to regret having done so.

I left work early and got to her house in time to speak with the police officer. He is required to file a report. I asked him what to expect - and he said that Child Protective Services WILL become involved.

Ex has hit my daughter before - left a small bruise about a year ago.

And my OD has lied about Mom before. 

I'm not convinced that Mom (my Ex) actually hit her, but I'm not sure it will even matter at this point. The two of them simply bring out the worst in each other.

Oldest Daughter - presidential scholar, no trouble at school, no trouble at camp, no trouble with Gramma and Grandpa, and little trouble with me.

I think my Ex may have finally hung herself with all the rope she's been given. And I'm hopeful that the process we are about to go through may finally truly bring me and my daughters the closure that we need.


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## keko

How is your child support setup?


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## nice777guy

Child support is based on the state's calc. Time is 50/50 - but Ex is listed as primary guardian. She pays for medical bills and school fees - so it goes in her favor.

Right now I'm not sure that I care. I just want to do what's right for my daughters.


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## angelpixie

Was there ever any physical violence on her part when you were together? Do you think she's capable of it? 

On the other side of the coin, even tho the X and OD have problems, and OD has lied about X before, do you think she would lie about something this serious? From what I remember, she's 12, right? That's plenty old enough to understand the ramifications of making a false claim of something that serious. If you don't mind my asking, what were the circumstances, according to OD?

What I don't understand is why X called the police -- certainly she'd have to know that the OD would tell the police what happened. Seems like a crazy move on her part. 

Just a note -- we're having crazy weather here and I'm intermittently losing my internet. So my posts might not come through right, I don't know.


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## nice777guy

OD is 12. Ex once "spanked" her with a wooden spoon on her thigh. Twenty years ago it would not have been considered abuse. But things have changed. OD took pics of the marks and I still have the pics

I think Ex was trying to be a bully. Thinking that a call to the police would scare my daughter. Like so many other things she's done, I don't think she was thinking about the big picture.

OD has lied about being hit once before. She later admitted to lying. (Actually - I take this back. She lied about Mom calling her a Tramp before.)

The divorce was easy - we had a common goal to end the marriage. But this could get nasty.


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## angelpixie

Wow -- a wooden spoon is a big deal to me. It must have been for OD, too, for her to take pics of it. 

My gut feeling is that OD needs you, whether she's lying or not. You don't owe X anything anymore, and there's no going back now that the police were called and you'll be dealing with CPS. You know how crazy x is, even more than OD does. 

Are you wanting to get full custody of the girls? What does your younger daughter have to say -- did she see any of this?


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## EleGirl

While you might not owe your x anything, you do owe your daughter to be a good father.

If there is any chance that she lied about her mother hitting her you have to get the truth. If your daughter lied again you have to teach her that this is not acceptable.

It sounds like your daughter is entering an age where she is locking horns with her mom. I'm sure that the divorce makes this worse. If it's not handled right it could be a disaster for your daughter.

Have you asked your x why she called the police? Could there be more to the story?


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## nice777guy

My Ex became a liar by habit during the last two years of our marriage. And OD has admitted to lying once before in order to get away from her Mother.

I not going to ask my Ex anything at this point. I'm going to let CPS do their investigation and see what they recommend.

I could see changing the agreement so that I have my OD more often. It would involve her being alone at home more often, but I would be comfortable with that at this age.

And as for them locking horns - that's nothing new. They've been going to a therapist together (infrequently) for several years now.

Going to do a lot of journaling today - write down some of the things the kids have told me in recent months. For example, my youngest thinks its weird that when Mom goes to the grocery and leaves them at home, she's sometimes gone for two hours.


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## angelpixie

Journaling all of that is a great idea!! And-- it says a lot about OD that you would be OK with her staying with you, even if you'd have to leave her alone for a while.


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## Dollystanford

oh lord niceguy - what a nightmare
I have to say that hitting a child with an implement of any kind is most certainly assault and I would imagine affected OD quite badly
you need to be there for her which I know you will my lovely, she needs her daddy right now
she may well be lying but if she is there's a deep-seated reason for that, certainly at her age


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## nice777guy

Dollystanford said:


> she may well be lying but if she is there's a deep-seated reason for that, certainly at her age


that's kind of where im at right now

Recently a lot of the conflict revolves around my Ex's "friend" being around.

OD has been threatening to call CPS lately when they get into these big fights. My Ex has told her that if she DID call CPS, she might end up in a foster home. Even told her last week that in foster care "some kids" end up being physically abused or raped. Youngest Daughter backed this story up - said she heard Mom say this. My Ex simply said that I didn't understand how OD talks to her. I don't care what OD said - that was a terrible thing for a Mother to have said to her own child.

I feel like I'm getting ready to walk on the stage of the Jerry Springer show. And I'm not saying that with my normal humor or sarcasm. I've spent most of my day "resting" in bed.


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## that_girl

How old are your children?


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## working_together

It sounds like your ex has had enough with your daughter, and that's why she called the police. I work for CPS, and many parents do call the police, it's pretty much in desperation, they want help. I'm not saying your daughter is difficult, but their relationship seems strained.

Group homes are no pick nick, and they pick up all kinds of new behaviors. Try to get the option of her moving in with you, that's always put on the table first with stipulations.

Good luck


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## nice777guy

Kids are 12 and 9 - birthdays next month.

Working - any heads up as to what I can expect and how soon?


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## angelpixie

Wow, nice, what working said is kind of scary. If you haven't already, you may have to start laying ex's behavior out in the open for everyone to see. It will give some background to what OD is saying. You believe OD because of your experience with your ex -- but (and I hope not) CPS may assume that OD is just being a troublemaker. 

And I agree with you -- what your ex said to your OD was a horrible thing to say to her own daughter. She shouldn't have to make a choice between getting abused -- even emotionally -- by her mom and getting abused or raped in a group home. Horrible!  :cussing: issed:


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## nice777guy

working_together said:


> It sounds like your ex has had enough with your daughter, and that's why she called the police. I work for CPS, and many parents do call the police, it's pretty much in desperation, they want help. I'm not saying your daughter is difficult, but their relationship seems strained.
> 
> Group homes are no pick nick, and they pick up all kinds of new behaviors. Try to get the option of her moving in with you, that's always put on the table first with stipulations.
> 
> Good luck


OD can be difficult. But things only get crazy and out of control around Mom. No problems and straight A's at school, chosen by her counselors as the outstanding camper in her cabin at summer camp, never heard complaints from Girl Scout Leaders, other parents, Gramma and Grandpa, etc...

As I said, I would have no problem with her living with me full-time. I have as close to 50/50 custody as I can get given that I work 50+ hours a week and Ex is "disabled" and doesn't work at all. My MIL was also upset about the threat that OD would end up in a Home, saying that she would even take her before that would happen.

I think my Ex called the police to scare her. I truly don't think she realized that CPS would be required to get involved.


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## nice777guy

angelpixie said:


> Wow, nice, what working said is kind of scary. If you haven't already, you may have to start laying ex's behavior out in the open for everyone to see. It will give some background to what OD is saying. You believe OD because of your experience with your ex -- but (and I hope not) CPS may assume that OD is just being a troublemaker.
> 
> And I agree with you -- what your ex said to your OD was a horrible thing to say to her own daughter. She shouldn't have to make a choice between getting abused -- even emotionally -- by her mom and getting abused or raped in a group home. Horrible!  :cussing: issed:


Have done a lot of thinking today - plan to put some things on paper later. Hard to separate Divorce issues from current custody issues. Also can't type as fast as my brain thinks.

I can think of at least two other times my Ex has laid a hand on OD. When we were separated, I still remember getting a phone call from her saying she "had to pull the van over and pop her in the mouth." I remember the words clearly because I was thinking "you never HAVE to POP someone in the mouth..."

Then the swat on the leg with the spoon.

Also - Ex actually punched me in the face once during a Divorce argument a couple of years ago. But like many men would do, I let it go, but threatened to call the police if she ever did it again.

I remember now that OD once admitted to lying about Mom calling her a Tramp one night. That's the only confirmed/admitted lie on her part than I can speak to.

One thing that truly makes me believe OD - she said when Mom smacked her she also said "Don't F u c k with me." Sadly - that totally sounds like something my Ex would say.


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## angelpixie

If you don't mind my asking, what is the XW's disability?


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## nice777guy

Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.


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## that_girl

12 year olds can be trouble. Mine is almost 13 and she likes to push buttons and push her limits. She also likes to mope around and pretend she hates everything.

A couple months ago, while eating dinner, I was trying to talk with her about our situation. She and I have always butted heads but it was boiling to the top. She stopped eating, looked at me, and said, "I'm eating, do you mind?"

Yea. She got popped. Hitting is not my "go to" in parenting. I apologized after things had calmed down and she hasn't pushed her limits since. We are in mother/daughter therapy and she is in therapy for her own issues regarding her father...but I don't regret popping her. It got her attention. She has never been one to put in time out (when she was younger) or take things away. It would change nothing. She wouldn't care. She'd sit in time out, singing and saying, "This is where I wanted to be anyway." ugh...I usually take the higher ground and try to talk with her, but I had had it that day. 

I don't spank my kids. I have never had the need to. They are pretty well behaved. My mom slapped me ONCE as a child (I was 16) and god, did I ever deserve that. 

What was the reasoning for your ex to hit your daughter? What other techniques do you two have in place for discipline? Does anything work? As a teacher, i am around children all the time. A lot of my kids are ED (emotionally disturbed) so I know how to control myself. But some kids, man...I have had to distance myself a few times because no kid is worth losing my job. 

There's a weird shift in parenting that basically lets the child be the one in control these days. Not everything is up for discussion, nor is everything fair or 'just'. Sometimes kids have to learn their place. 

I'm probably the minority in this, but unless I knew the whole story of what happened between your ex and OD, I don't know if I'm for or against it.


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## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> 12 year olds can be trouble. Mine is almost 13 and she likes to push buttons and push her limits. She also likes to mope around and pretend she hates everything.
> 
> A couple months ago, while eating dinner, I was trying to talk with her about our situation. She and I have always butted heads but it was boiling to the top. She stopped eating, looked at me, and said, "I'm eating, do you mind?"
> 
> Yea. She got popped. Hitting is not my "go to" in parenting. I apologized after things had calmed down and she hasn't pushed her limits since. We are in mother/daughter therapy and she is in therapy for her own issues regarding her father...but I don't regret popping her. It got her attention. She has never been one to put in time out (when she was younger) or take things away. It would change nothing. She wouldn't care. She'd sit in time out, singing and saying, "This is where I wanted to be anyway." ugh...I usually take the higher ground and try to talk with her, but I had had it that day.
> 
> I don't spank my kids. I have never had the need to. They are pretty well behaved. My mom slapped me ONCE as a child (I was 16) and god, did I ever deserve that.
> 
> What was the reasoning for your ex to hit your daughter? What other techniques do you two have in place for discipline? Does anything work? As a teacher, i am around children all the time. A lot of my kids are ED (emotionally disturbed) so I know how to control myself. But some kids, man...I have had to distance myself a few times because no kid is worth losing my job.
> 
> There's a weird shift in parenting that basically lets the child be the one in control these days. Not everything is up for discussion, nor is everything fair or 'just'. Sometimes kids have to learn their place.
> 
> I'm probably the minority in this, but unless I knew the whole story of what happened between your ex and OD, I don't know if I'm for or against it.


Everything here is very deep...

Ex became friends with J during our divorce. J is also somehow disabled. He curses constantly, chain smokes, and generally has no business being around kids.

At one point during family therapy, Ex promised J would no longer be around. She kept her promise for a month.

J was at the house that day - there was no milk in the fridge - OD got upset about J, no food (likely an exaggeration), and Mom not spending time with them (a common theme for three years now).

Big argument - it died down. Ex went to her room. OD still upset. While YD was walking the dog, OD claims she calmly told Mom it hurt her feelings that they never did things together and that J was there so often.

Ex calmly went into kitchen - and when passing back through slapped / face palmed D in the middle of her face and said "don't F with me." D asked her why she did that, Ex said "I don't know what you're talking about." and went back to her room.

The "don't f with me" and "I don't know what your talking about" both sound incredibly familiar to ME from the last two years of marriage hell. Really - its like hearing catch phrases from a character in a movie that I lived through repeated by someone else.

Ex and I had been taking things away (iPod, phone, etc) and it seemed to be working.

If the story is true, I see this fitting more into a pattern of emotional abuse.


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## that_girl

Oh, that is just bully/passive-aggressive behavior. Out of line. Then to pretend it didn't happen? Holy wow. 

However, do you believe your OD was "calm" when approaching your ex? Not that this EXCUSES that at all.

It's emotional and physical abuse.

Our OD never had anything to really take away. No TV, nothing she really was attached to. However, her dad sent her an ipad so now we have something.


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## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Oh, that is just bully/passive-aggressive behavior. Out of line. Then to pretend it didn't happen? Holy wow.
> 
> However, do you believe your OD was "calm" when approaching your ex? Not that this EXCUSES that at all.
> 
> It's emotional and physical abuse.
> 
> Our OD never had anything to really take away. No TV, nothing she really was attached to. However, her dad sent her an ipad so now we have something.


It is possible that OD was calm - yes. I have seen her do this before. Throw a tantrum - take her punishment - and then come back later and try to talk calmly. Just like anyone else who believes they are right about something - she will keep at it and also change her approach.

And I know that my Ex is capable of hitting or smacking. And if you were ever on the infidelity threads here - you may recognize some gas lighting ("I don't know what you're talking about") - something the Ex did to me for two+ years.

As I talked through this with OD tonight - her recounting of what my Ex said and the words she used has made this much more believable to me.

BUT - what do you do about it? I don't think my OD is in any real physical danger - especially now that my Ex has put herself under the microscope.


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## that_girl

Yea, she blew the whistle on herself.


My mom was somewhat like that. She'd say HORRIBLE things to me and then when I would say how much that hurt my feelings, she'd say, "Oh you're too sensitive, get over it."

Can't talk to her now about those things because she "doesn't remember" or I'm "just making stuff up to sound interesting" :rofl: Ok, lady.

Raising kids is hard...especially if you were raised in turmoil (like my mom was). You tend to repeat the pattern if you don't address it.


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## nice777guy

Yes - raising kids is very hard.

My Inlaws are great people - and my Ex has no history of abuse.

After she became sick though - she got very mad at the world. Felt like she got a raw deal.

It's hard for me to separate Divorce issues from what is happening now too.

It's still possible that my OD is lying.

I'm nervous about CPS becoming involved - but I'm also hopeful that it will help. I don't know what the real answer is. I just hope these people are better than some other government run organizations...


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## that_girl

Yea, you don't really want to be under their watch. 

Was your daughter assigned a social worker? Many of my students have them for CPS issues.


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## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Yea, you don't really want to be under their watch.
> 
> Was your daughter assigned a social worker? Many of my students have them for CPS issues.


This all happened late Friday afternoon. I have a case number from the PD. The Officer said we may hear from them as soon as Monday.

From what I found on the Internet, they will first want to talk to both children to make sure they aren't in immediate physical harm - and I don't think they are.

Then they will talk to my Ex, as she was the one accused of the abuse. And then they will talk to others - like myself and MIL.

From what I'm reading - since she did not leave a mark, it would not be considered abuse in most states.

I just hope they will help us address some of the broader issues here. And hope that they recognize the potential emotional abuse even if the physical is dismissed.

Ex has made no attempt to call and talk to me, MIL, or the kids since the girls left to go with Gramma yesterday afternoon.


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## that_girl

Hm. It's hard to prove emotional abuse. I mean, where do they (the department) draw the line? Some children can be more sensitive than others, but is it abuse?

Not saying what your child endured was NOT emotional abuse, but...as much as we'd like to sometimes, we cannot go around telling people how to raise their kids (inregards to what we say and the choices we make). My child may say she feels emotionally abused because I don't let her go to parties with boys, that I have taken away her phone, that I make her do hard labor when she's a smart ass...ya know?

But maybe this will be the wakeup your ex needs to calm the eff down. "don't eff with me" is a threat. What is she planning on doing if she thinks your OD is "effin' with her"? That's lame...and that IS emotional abuse. but it's all words....OD's against Ex's. 

This J guy sounds like he should be eliminated from the home. Can't you, as the father, file something about this? I wouldn't want some guy around my girls. God no.


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## nice777guy

that_girl said:


> Hm. It's hard to prove emotional abuse. I mean, where do they (the department) draw the line? Some children can be more sensitive than others, but is it abuse?
> 
> Not saying what your child endured was NOT emotional abuse, but...as much as we'd like to sometimes, we cannot go around telling people how to raise their kids (inregards to what we say and the choices we make). My child may say she feels emotionally abused because I don't let her go to parties with boys, that I have taken away her phone, that I make her do hard labor when she's a smart ass...ya know?
> 
> But maybe this will be the wakeup your ex needs to calm the eff down. "don't eff with me" is a threat. What is she planning on doing if she thinks your OD is "effin' with her"? That's lame...and that IS emotional abuse. but it's all words....OD's against Ex's.
> 
> This J guy sounds like he should be eliminated from the home. Can't you, as the father, file something about this? I wouldn't want some guy around my girls. God no.


I'm hoping at a minimum we can all agree that this Bozo should not be around the kids. I'm not sure what my rights are really. He's supposedly just a "friend" - and he doesn't sleepover or anything. 

YD doesn't actually mind him. But she doesn't like to rock the boat much - she wants to be the peacekeeper. All the fighting between Mom and OD really bothers her.

Emotional abuse - kind of reminds me of EAs. You know its wrong and can feel it when it's affecting you - but it can be hard for an outsider to recognize.


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## nice777guy

I don't like Tapatalk sometimes...


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## nice777guy

And I know this should be small - but YD texted Mom "goodnight" last night. No reply. Mom has not talked to or texted either kid since they left her house on Friday.


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## lamaga

nice777guy said:


> Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.


Nice, I am NOT a doctor and I don't want to start a thread war here, but I'm sure you're aware that these are both conditions that are well-known as being abused by patients, to the extent that some medical professionals don't recognize either one of them as a legitimate medical problem.

I'm not taking a stance either way, but boy did this send up alarm flags in the context of everything else you've said.

Honestly, I think occasionally lying was probably a normal response by a good kid facing an incredibly difficult situation. I'm glad you are getting her away from that mom.

How you feeling today?


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## angelpixie

Lamaga, I have to admit it that those 2 things sent up red flags for me, too. People who I know and have been declared disabled for either of those things are not able to come and go as they please or hang out with friends, etc. They are in constant pain and misery. If they are dealing with a lot of depression due to their pain and limitations, they are also in IC to help them to deal with it. It doesn't sound like that it what's going on with XW, Nice.

When is she due for her next review with SS? I wonder if this CPS episode would trigger one...


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## nice777guy

lamaga said:


> Nice, I am NOT a doctor and I don't want to start a thread war here, but I'm sure you're aware that these are both conditions that are well-known as being abused by patients, to the extent that some medical professionals don't recognize either one of them as a legitimate medical problem.
> 
> I'm not taking a stance either way, but boy did this send up alarm flags in the context of everything else you've said.
> 
> Honestly, I think occasionally lying was probably a normal response by a good kid facing an incredibly difficult situation. I'm glad you are getting her away from that mom.
> 
> How you feeling today?


I'm down and nervous. A bit scared honestly. Wish I had a better idea about what to expect tomorrow.

I don't really "want" to try taking the kids away. I'm just going to be very open and honest with CPS and hope they can actually help. And I will pursue whatever they recommend.

Totally understand about Fibro and CFS. A lot of gray area. The symptom list is very similar to classic depression. We were still married when she was diagnosed.

Years ago she was briefly diagnosed as BP 2 - but it was later changed to "Anxiety Otherwise Unspecified." I still honestly wonder about the BP2.


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## nice777guy

angelpixie said:


> Lamaga, I have to admit it that those 2 things sent up red flags for me, too. People who I know and have been declared disabled for either of those things are not able to come and go as they please or hang out with friends, etc. They are in constant pain and misery. If they are dealing with a lot of depression due to their pain and limitations, they are also in IC to help them to deal with it. It doesn't sound like that it what's going on with XW, Nice.
> 
> When is she due for her next review with SS? I wonder if this CPS episode would trigger one...


I'm not aware of any scheduled reviews.

When we were married it seemed to affect her ability to take the kids places and do housework. But social things with the new friends she made - not a problem.


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## angelpixie

Saw this quote this morning, and immediately thought of our exes:

Part of the problem with the word 'disabilities' is that it immediately suggests an inability to see or hear or walk or do other things that many of us take for granted. But what of people who can't feel? Or talk about their feelings? Or manage their feelings in constructive ways? What of people who aren't able to form close and strong relationships? And people who cannot find fulfillment in their lives, or those who have lost hope, who live in disappointment and bitterness and find in life no joy, no love? These, it seems to me, are the real disabilities.

Fred Rogers


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## nice777guy

Then why am I the one sitting here a nervous wreck today. Tried calling CPS - that was a waste of time. They said it may be a few days before anything happens.

Scares me because when I Google "Abuse Allegations" - many of the initial search results are referring to how to handle a false allegation. So I guess that happens a lot.

I don't do well with "Limbo" - but it appears I'll be stuck here just waiting for a few days. Doesn't match what the officer said at all...but of course he's moved on to other things.

Wondering what happens if OD is lying - or if they just don't believe her.

Dropped both kids off with my Ex as usual today - but we all agreed that Ex and OD would not be alone without YD present. Not fair at all to YD...but fairness went out the window two years ago along with Honesty and Faithfulness...


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## lamaga

Well, Nice, it's not fair to you, either...

but you've gotten the ball rolling. That's all you can do today.

My thoughts are with you.


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## angelpixie

Sorry you're going through this, Nice. Limbo is really hellish at times. Sending ((hugs)) your way.


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## that_girl

You're a wreck because you actually give a shet about your kids and life.


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## nice777guy

No word from CPS yesterday. Called them. Sounds like since this was originated by a police report, it may take longer than had it been called in to the Hotline.

Also tried calling the therapist that my Ex and OD had been seeing together - to see if she could give me some idea of what to expect - and possibly any interpretation of how she might see the situation - but she's on vacation this week.

Managed to lighten my mood a bit last night (see random song posts and posts about Cityville Girl). Was admittedly very grumpy with the kids over the weekend.

Yesterday went well with Mom. Funny - she went to the store and got a more junk food for them than she normally gets.

Not sure if it matters - but pretty darn sure I saw "J" pulling out of her driveway this morning as I was dropping kids off - and she was outside - unlocking the door. Not even going to ask...


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## DaKarmaTrain!

nice777guy said:


> No word from CPS yesterday. Called them. Sounds like since this was originated by a police report, it may take longer than had it been called in to the Hotline.
> 
> Also tried calling the therapist that my Ex and OD had been seeing together - to see if she could give me some idea of what to expect - and possibly any interpretation of how she might see the situation - but she's on vacation this week.
> 
> Managed to lighten my mood a bit last night (see random song posts and posts about Cityville Girl). Was admittedly very grumpy with the kids over the weekend.
> 
> Yesterday went well with Mom. Funny - she went to the store and got a more junk food for them than she normally gets.
> 
> Not sure if it matters - but pretty darn sure I saw "J" pulling out of her driveway this morning as I was dropping kids off - and she was outside - unlocking the door. Not even going to ask...


If CPS are anything like Children's Aid in Canada you have nothing to fear over this incident. They will meet with mom/your daughters/you, check everything out, and will monitor the situation for a few months. If nothing else occurs and your wife keeps her hands to herself/daughter stops telling fibs they will close your file.

Due to many events in the breakdown of my marriage I have been working with them for the past 18 months over the care of my children (I was awarded temporary custody of them last April). Key thing is to be COMPLETELY transparent and COMPLETELY cooperative. If they suspect any shenanigans, things will start to go downhill.


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## nice777guy

DaKarmaTrain! said:


> If CPS are anything like Children's Aid in Canada you have nothing to fear over this incident. They will meet with mom/your daughters/you, check everything out, and will monitor the situation for a few months. If nothing else occurs and your wife keeps her hands to herself/daughter stops telling fibs they will close your file.
> 
> Due to many events in the breakdown of my marriage I have been working with them for the past 18 months over the care of my children (I was awarded temporary custody of them last April). Key thing is to be COMPLETELY transparent and COMPLETELY cooperative. If they suspect any shenanigans, things will start to go downhill.


My biggest fear is actually that nothing will happen. That it will be an adult's word against a child - over a smack on the face that didn't leave a mark. And that the second I start telling anyone what a big liar my Ex is and how I think she's emotionally abuse - and was *even gaslighting the kid *("I don't know what you're talking about") *the exact same way she gaslighted me for 2+ years *- they'll write me off as the "Bitter Ex Husband."

Plus I'm just not so good with patience lately. I calmed down yesterday after being a complete grouch with my poor kids all last weekend. But then I find myself "over-correcting" my oldest daughter now when she makes a smart-aleck comment or says something mean to her sister.

Someone at work just had a baby - and somehow the list of who is supposed to do what while she's gone is getting ignored. So - there's more work to go around - and everyone is standing around pointing fingers saying "no - that wasn't me" - even though Or better yet - not saying anything at all when my boss asks ME about someone else's report.

But hey - I'm just the grumpy, Bitter Ex Husband...


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## DaKarmaTrain!

nice777guy said:


> My biggest fear is actually that nothing will happen. That it will be an adult's word against a child - over a smack on the face that didn't leave a mark. And that the second I start telling anyone what a big liar my Ex is and how I think she's emotionally abuse - and was *even gaslighting the kid *("I don't know what you're talking about") *the exact same way she gaslighted me for 2+ years *- they'll write me off as the "Bitter Ex Husband."
> 
> Plus I'm just not so good with patience lately. I calmed down yesterday after being a complete grouch with my poor kids all last weekend. But then I find myself "over-correcting" my oldest daughter now when she makes a smart-aleck comment or says something mean to her sister.
> 
> Someone at work just had a baby - and somehow the list of who is supposed to do what while she's gone is getting ignored. So - there's more work to go around - and everyone is standing around pointing fingers saying "no - that wasn't me" - even though Or better yet - not saying anything at all when my boss asks ME about someone else's report.
> 
> But hey - I'm just the grumpy, Bitter Ex Husband...


Gotcha...I thought you were worried about it going bad (ie your kid taken into foster care etc).

The Train of Frustration will be leaving the Station VERY soon.

Again, if CPS is anything like up here you will find they are swamped/under-funded. Expect long delays in correspondance. Expect to be frustrated at every turn in the lack of action it appears they are taking. 

It has to be BAD before anything concrete happens. I used to complain about my STBXW being stoned around the kids. CAS met with her, and she ADMITTED she smoked dope and looked after them. She only got a slap on the wrist, and a 'Ah-ah-ah! You shouldn't be stoned around your children! If you want to smoke dope call Dad and have him look after the kids!' I was like WTF???

And that wasn't all...I complained about EVERYTHING...like when my kids would come over to my place and say there was nothing to eat at mom's (mom needed party money so groceries took a back seat). I complained, and CAS went to check it out. They found stuff like crackers/potato chips/hotdogs etc. Since there was food, they wouldn't do anything. Come on, this isn't West Africa. I was p!ssed because with the money I was giving her she could definitely afford good food.

Anyhoo, prepare to be frustrated...


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## nice777guy

Frustrated is my middle name.


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## working_together

Your case might sit on the waiting list for a while, it may not be considered an emergency. Have they interviewed everyone?? Once they interview your ex, you, and your daughter, they basically write up an assessment, decide whether if your daughter is at risk, and come up with a safety plan so this type of situation does not continue to happen. Meaning they probably will have to go to counseling, or some other community organization in order to put a stop to the problem. They may even close the case. Not sure about the issue of lying though, I've never had a case where the teen lies about being hit by a parent, either way everyone gets to tell their version, and workers are skilled at seeing through lies by parents or kids.

I think it's a good idea to tell them that there has been a divorce, she's at an age where there is a great impact. Maybe they could hook you up with some resources in the area.

good luck


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## nice777guy

working_together said:


> Your case might sit on the waiting list for a while, it may not be considered an emergency. Have they interviewed everyone?? Once they interview your ex, you, and your daughter, they basically write up an assessment, decide whether if your daughter is at risk, and come up with a safety plan so this type of situation does not continue to happen. Meaning they probably will have to go to counseling, or some other community organization in order to put a stop to the problem. They may even close the case. Not sure about the issue of lying though, I've never had a case where the teen lies about being hit by a parent, either way everyone gets to tell their version, and workers are skilled at seeing through lies by parents or kids.
> 
> I think it's a good idea to tell them that there has been a divorce, she's at an age where there is a great impact. Maybe they could hook you up with some resources in the area.
> 
> good luck


Thanks. So far there has been no follow up with CPS. The only person we've talked to was the Police Officer who came to my Ex wife's house.

My D's story really sounds a lot like what my Ex did during the last two years of our marriage. I can remember very blatant lies and times she would simply refuse to answer a reasonable question.

I don't think my D is in immediate physical danger - but there is just too much conflict and what I would consider emotional abuse.

OD said it came up today and Ex told her she might have just imagined it (gas lighting?) OD said she was proud of herself because she told Mom she didn't want to argue and just walked away. YD chimed in to say "Mom was the one yelling...." about today.

Really, really hate this...


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## angelpixie

Wow, that sure is gaslighting. Your OD sounds very mature for 12, and certainly much more so than her mom. I really hope you and the girls can get some relief really soon. I can vaguely imagine how horrible this must be for you and them. (hugs)


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## nice777guy

angelpixie said:


> Wow, that sure is gaslighting. Your OD sounds very mature for 12, and certainly much more so than her mom. I really hope you and the girls can get some relief really soon. I can vaguely imagine how horrible this must be for you and them. (hugs)


Thanks. Really means a lot...just to be heard sometimes.

Was reading a "Post Divorce" parenting book tonight - made me feel better about myself! I'm not perfect - and no one is - but these girls know that I love them them - AND that they can trust me.

One night a couple of months ago OD was telling me about trouble she was having with her classmates on a group project. YD also added in her drama of the day. I asked if they'd told Mom and both said "no." When I asked why not, YD said that I asked them how their days had been - and Mom didn't...


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## angelpixie

Geez, as a mom, I can't imagine that...


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## nice777guy

She's just a special kind of woman!


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## angelpixie

A toast to our exes:

Garbage -- Special

I had this on a CD one night when I was at the 'marital home' laying the wood floor. Singing along, of course. STBXH walked over to the laptop and just unceremoniously turned off the music. Very rude, don't you think? After all, he was downstairs on his way out on a date, and I was upstairs working my a$$ off. Why should the song bother him?


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## nice777guy

angelpixie said:


> A toast to our exes:
> 
> Garbage -- Special
> 
> I had this on a CD one night when I was at the 'marital home' laying the wood floor. Singing along, of course. STBXH walked over to the laptop and just unceremoniously turned off the music. Very rude, don't you think? After all, he was downstairs on his way out on a date, and I was upstairs working my a$$ off. Why should the song bother him?


It's gotta get better - right?


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## angelpixie

I think so (wait, did *I* just say that?) -- I mean, really, at least we're not living with their crap day in and day out, in the same house, etc. 

I really like a lot of what Homemaker Numero Uno says in her posts, she's very wise. If I could tap into some of that thinking somehow, I think I'd feel a whole lot better equipped to handle STBXH's sh!t.

Cuz we know they're not going to change unless they get hit by the proverbial bolt of lightning, so it's up to us to learn to be impacted by them as little as humanly possible.


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## angelpixie

Which is, of course, exceedingly difficult when you're raising kids together...


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## nice777guy

I still have a small shred of hope that my Ex will ride off with some guy - never to be seen again!!!


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## nice777guy

Police department has closed the case as there were no marks and it wasn't a case they could prosecute.

AND the local CPS/DCS department has no record of it - meaning that someone at their state office decided it wasn't worthy of investigating.

So - lesson being - you can emotionally abuse your child - and possibly strike them - as long as you don't leave a mark.

Not only was there no followup at all - I had to call four different places to find out that it has more than likely been ignored.

So - what do I tell my OD?


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## lamaga

I'm so sorry, Nice -- 

you tell her that she did the right thing by telling you, that she should always tell you in the future, and that she can come live with you anytime (can she? I know my H's custody agreement said that the kids could always choose, but that may not be standard).

Anyway -- the system does not always work. Please make sure that OD knows that this does not reflect on her at all.


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## angelpixie

Oh man, that was an outcome that hadn't even crossed my mind! In a way, that's good because you don't have to worry about some kind of knock-down drag-out she-said/she-said between X and OD
BUT...as far as validating OD, this is TERRIBLE!! There's no doubt that what her mom did was wrong, but the system just backed up her mom. Nice, I'm sorry. So, you'll have to let her know that you back her up, and that you believe her. That's going to be extra important if she feels the system let her down and if her mom ever gloats about it -- which we both know she will. 
That's just crap.


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## angelpixie

lamaga said:


> I'm so sorry, Nice --
> 
> you tell her that she did the right thing by telling you, that she should always tell you in the future, and that she can come live with you anytime (can she? I know my H's custody agreement said that the kids could always choose, but that may not be standard).
> 
> Anyway -- the system does not always work. Please make sure that OD knows that this does not reflect on her at all.


My lawyer told me that in my state, once the child turns 14, their desires are taking into consideration when deciding where they live.


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## nice777guy

angelpixie said:


> My lawyer told me that in my state, once the child turns 14, their desires are taking into consideration when deciding where they live.


OD turns 13 in a few weeks.

I know that if we were the process of divorce, a judge would "consider" her wishes.

Not sure how it works if you want to go modify it later. Especially since it was just final in February...

Haven't told my Ex or D yet.

Thanks guys.


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## Shoeguy

Sorry Nice that sucks. I think open communication is always a good route.

Although I don't have to deal with the same situation I have made it a point to talk to both my girls (16 & almost 14). I make sure they know that they always have a place to rest at my place. I live 2 blocks away and they can both walk over and have keys to the house. I might be beating a dead horse and I get a ot of rolling eyes and Ya dad I know but I tend to say a version of that every few months.

The other point I try and emphasis is that I want to be involved with their lives as much as they will let me in. I'm interested in listenign and giving my opinion as a boy, adult, dad and whatever other role I need to play that they need. They might not want to hear what I have to say but they can be asured that it is from my heart and has them in mind.

It seems to be working. I think since I moved out I have a much stronger bond with my girls than I did before. Crazy thing is they are in High School. What girl wants to hang out with dad during HS years.

Just some things I do that seem to be working.

Later

Shoeguy


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## nice777guy

Shoeguy said:


> Sorry Nice that sucks. I think open communication is always a good route.
> 
> Although I don't have to deal with the same situation I have made it a point to talk to both my girls (16 & almost 14). I make sure they know that they always have a place to rest at my place. I live 2 blocks away and they can both walk over and have keys to the house. I might be beating a dead horse and I get a ot of rolling eyes and Ya dad I know but I tend to say a version of that every few months.
> 
> The other point I try and emphasis is that I want to be involved with their lives as much as they will let me in. I'm interested in listenign and giving my opinion as a boy, adult, dad and whatever other role I need to play that they need. They might not want to hear what I have to say but they can be asured that it is from my heart and has them in mind.
> 
> It seems to be working. I think since I moved out I have a much stronger bond with my girls than I did before. Crazy thing is they are in High School. What girl wants to hang out with dad during HS years.
> 
> Just some things I do that seem to be working.
> 
> Later
> 
> Shoeguy


Thanks. I've got my girls about half the time. We do well together.

I just wish their Mom showed the interest in them that most parents show in their kids...


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## nice777guy

Concerned that my Ex will feel "validated" and continue to bully my OD...

Texted my MIL - asked her not to say anything yet to my Ex. I know she's been worried about OD. Guess I can talk to OD on Friday night. 

Not sure I even care to tell my Ex. Let her do her own homework to find out there will no inquiry. Hopefully she'll continue to think that she may still potentially be under some kind of scrutiny.

And I guess I'm back to journaling again.  Use to be therapeutic - but now it just feels like I'm wallowing in $hit.


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## lamaga

Yeah, Nice, I agree with not saying anything to the Ex. If she asks, tell her it's in process. Let her worry!

I'm sorry. So very sorry. My divorce did not involve children, so it was so much easier to cope with.


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## angelpixie

Shoeguy said:


> The other point I try and emphasis is that I want to be involved with their lives as much as they will let me in. I'm interested in listenign and giving my opinion as a boy, adult, dad and whatever other role I need to play that they need. They might not want to hear what I have to say but they can be asured that it is from my heart and has them in mind.
> 
> It seems to be working. I think since I moved out I have a much stronger bond with my girls than I did before. Crazy thing is they are in High School. What girl wants to hang out with dad during HS years.


Shoe- 
I was much closer to my dad when I was in high school than I was with my mom. He was really overprotective in a lot of ways (I was the oldest in the family), but he was also someone I watched hockey games with on TV, drove my girlfriends and I to dances and was the 'cool dad' who played 'our music' on the car radio because he liked it, too, etc. When he and my mom broke up, he walked out totally, including on my brother and I. I was devastated and I know that abandonment affected me in all of my relationships with guys after that, including my relationship with STBXH. 
A girl and her dad can have a really special relationship, even in high school. You sound like you're trying to do all the right things, and even if they roll their eyes now, it will mean a lot to them. Keep it up.
Angel


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## Shoeguy

Thanks Angel,

I'll keep at it. Sucks I don't get them more but I was the stupid one not to fight harder. I guess just a lesson learned. I'm trying to lay a solid foundation with both girls that hopefully continues when they grow up and move away. 

I do plenty of thinking nowdays and the one thing I was grinding was how much different an ex gets. Maybe they have always been this way but since you spend so much time with them during the marrige you just don't see it in them. Probably the little things become more visable when there isn't other noise to distract you once living apart. I just boggles my mind.

Then I turn that thinking on myself. I try and envision how I'm being perceived by her. It makes me more conscience of what I'm saying and doing. I think it makes me a better person in the long run by doing that.

Nice, you are there to protect your kids from crazy but in the end you can only control yourself. Keep up the good work.

Shoeguy


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## nice777guy

Shoeguy - sometimes I wonder if our 50/50 split is truly a blessing. If I wasn't concerned - truly concerned - about my wife's stability - I'm not sure I would have fought for that kind of split.

If we had the more traditional "mostly with Mom" split, it would be so much easier to stay out of each other's hair. As it stands now, I see her way too often.

Especially after this latest mess, its tempting to look into modifying the agreement to where I would have them more. But - truly - I'm not sure I could handle "more." The best I could do is provide a place for them to get away from their Mother - but they would have to be home alone quite a bit. Not sure how I could handle Doctor's appointments and other things that come up during the day either.

We can truly only do so much...


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## nice777guy

Had a discussion with my MIL last night. As usual, she seems almost as angry as I am at her own daughter. BUT - her way of dealing with it is to simply get the kids more often (once a week) without directly addressing her concerns or making any waves. Not that talking to my Ex has done ANY good.

She (MIL, Ex-MIL really) called me a few moments ago to tell me that she lied and told my Ex that MIL and I had NOT talked since "the incident." Wish she would have just been honest and said "yes - we discussed it - and we think you need help." But that's not her way...


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## Shooboomafoo

LOL, My xMIL still lives in the marital home with the ex and whatever position the "guy" over there serves.
She doesnt raise any stink because the ex is her room and board right now. At least shes a decent granny and the kid loves her. 
How many times have I moved that womans stuff in and out of our house, due to her $$ issues, and what else..
Man...


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## working_together

nice777guy said:


> I still have a small shred of hope that my Ex will ride off with some guy - never to be seen again!!!


Even if that happens, she may still enjoy drawing you into her drama. I used to think "whoa, he's got a g/f, he's going to finally leave me alone"...yeah, that didn't happen. I think they get off on pissing us off. We just have to learn not to react to it.


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## working_together

nice777guy said:


> Police department has closed the case as there were no marks and it wasn't a case they could prosecute.
> 
> AND the local CPS/DCS department has no record of it - meaning that someone at their state office decided it wasn't worthy of investigating.
> 
> So - lesson being - you can emotionally abuse your child - and possibly strike them - as long as you don't leave a mark.
> 
> Not only was there no followup at all - I had to call four different places to find out that it has more than likely been ignored.
> 
> So - what do I tell my OD?


That is really strange, in my province, anytime that the police are called, there has to be an investigation even if there are no visable marks.

At our child welfare office, we get some strange calls, but we still have to investigate, and even follow a protocol when the police are involved.

You can call child welfare yourself if your ex refuses to get help through counseling for your daughter. Then she'll have no other choice. We get a lot of calls from parents who need help.

stay strong.


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## nice777guy

Thanks.

We've done family counseling. My Ex recently told me she was finished with it. I'm honestly not sure that the counselor was very effective.

Have considered taking OD to a counselor myself.

Things have been better in the last week. But still room for improvement.


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## ing

This looks familiar..

My OD is 17 and now live with me. This happened about a month ago and came as quiet a surprise to me since the week on / week off seemed to be working to some extent. 
The thing I had not considered was that her Mother had simply replaced me as the person to lean on, with her. 

She had been dealing with the emotional abuse that I had been absorbing for years and protecting my YD from the selfish petulant outbursts and emotional blackmail that I had become so adept at intercepting!

Your daughter is younger and saying "mom hit me" may not be literal. We all know what betrayal and emotional abuse feels like. It feels like someone hit you in the guts, at best.

All I can suggest is that you encourage her to talk to a counselor and go through another adult she trusts, it is too emotionally charged to talk to you directly. My OD arranged her own Pysch through high school. I found this out because she needed her own heath card so that her Mother would not know she was doing it. I simply enabled and empowered her to help herself. 

Provide a stable emotionally honest home and wait for reality to set in. 

A friend [my GF] said. Separation just highlights what was already there. If you were the one who offered emotional and physical support before, you will be now, It just becomes really obvious who provides what!


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## nice777guy

ing said:


> This looks familiar..
> 
> My OD is 17 and now live with me. This happened about a month ago and came as quiet a surprise to me since the week on / week off seemed to be working to some extent.
> The thing I had not considered was that her Mother had simply replaced me as the person to lean on, with her.
> 
> She had been dealing with the emotional abuse that I had been absorbing for years and protecting my YD from the selfish petulant outbursts and emotional blackmail that I had become so adept at intercepting!
> 
> Your daughter is younger and saying "mom hit me" may not be literal. We all know what betrayal and emotional abuse feels like. It feels like someone hit you in the guts, at best.
> 
> All I can suggest is that you encourage her to talk to a counselor and go through another adult she trusts, it is too emotionally charged to talk to you directly. My OD arranged her own Pysch through high school. I found this out because she needed her own heath card so that her Mother would not know she was doing it. I simply enabled and empowered her to help herself.
> 
> Provide a stable emotionally honest home and wait for reality to set in.
> 
> A friend [my GF] said. Separation just highlights what was already there. If you were the one who offered emotional and physical support before, you will be now, It just becomes really obvious who provides what!


Thank you for sharing...


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## nice777guy

Another call tonight from my daughter, screaming bloody murder and claiming Mom called her a b I t c h and blew smoke in her face...

How exactly does this even count as divorce?


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## Paradise

Nice, I think it is about time you sat the ex and daughter down together at the same time and put all the cards on the table. Doesn't sound like she can handle your daughter right now and it is only going to escalate. Doesn't sound like you are happy being stuck in the middle of this mess, either. You can continue to go down this route or be prepared to do something about it. 

I don't know everything so it's easy for me to say what I would do but honestly, it might be time to just tell them that she's moving in with you. At least long enough to defuse this situation. Just make sure your daughter understands the rules in your house up front about what will be expected of her. 

I could not handle this. You are absorbing your ex wife's drama. Don't you want to get away from that?


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## nice777guy

Thx.

Was really hoping to just get through the summer.

Called my Employee Assistance Program - thinking about additional counseling - for OD and myself.


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## ferndog

nice777guy said:


> Thx.
> 
> Was really hoping to just get through the summer.
> 
> Called my Employee Assistance Program - thinking about additional counseling - for OD and myself.


Let me start by saying I have no children so my opinion holds little water.
Whoever I work with kids around that age range of your daughter in low income neighborhoods. I see innocent kids. I see kids going through puverty. I also see kids pushing buttons to see what they can get away with.

It would be nice to see where she is. Mother either is having a lot of stress and taking it out on the child or who knows. 

You would know more. But Im sure your EW loves her. Communication gets lost when respect is lost. 

Sucks for all involved. But love and dissapline go hand in hand or your daughter may make life long mistakes.

I wish you luck my friend. Love your daughter and try to judge from all angles. I'm sure both have faults
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nice777guy

Police called again last night. This is getting old. Would - again - appreciate any feedback, but I opened a new thread in the Parenting section this time.

Thanks.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...xw-od-police-called-second-time-confused.html


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## Paradise

Nice.....My feedback is the same as I posted above. It's time for you to step in and take over. At the very least consult a lawyer and figure out your options.


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## Shoeguy

I agree with Paradise. You should take control of the problem.

I think the focus should be on the OD and what is best for her. It is a tough age but it sounds like she is reaching out for something.

It sounds liek now the slightest thing sets off an explosion and that is not helpful.


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