# Trying to recover from wife's EA



## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I've been reading this forum a lot for about a month and a half and decided to post an abbreviated version of my story.

I've been married for 9 years, have 4 kids ages 4 months to 7 years, and spent a ton of work supporting our family and putting myself through school. For the better part of those years my wife has been emotionally distant, controlling, unsupportive, extremely jealous, and unhappy with me. I spent the first several years trying very hard to do anything I could to make my wife happy and fulfilled in our relationship. I tried to talk to her about what I could do to improve our relationship, but she would never open up with me. 

Eventually I stopped trying as hard, and things hadn't really improved until about 2 years ago when our marriage seems to have been going better. 

About a 2 months ago my wife accused me of an EA with a coworker. I denied the EA, but she continued to accuse me telling me she could tell I loved the coworker. Then the bomb dropped...

While we were fighting, she told me via text: "Maybe I'm imputing my own past adulterous thoughts to you. I've had times when I realized all my delight was coming from my thoughts and interactions with another man. My mind would constantly go back to someone other than you, and my mental and emotional stimulation came from that. I was concerned to dress nicely for someone other than you."

I pressed her for details, and it she told me that she was referring to TWO other men. One is my brother and the other was my pastor. 

I was enraged, and we split up for about 3-4 weeks where she went to go stay with relatives (meanwhile telling people that I had left her and the kids and not explaining why). 

Eventually I decided to try to forgive her, and TRY to reconcile. We are supposed to start counseling, but haven't yet started. I pressed her for details, and it turns out that she's been exchanging emails, facebook, and texts with my brother and pastor. I've looked at most of them, and there's nothing explicit, but she certainly developed an emotional bond with these people at a time in my life when I was TRYING to satisfy her emotional needs. She would constantly accuse me of little things, of lying to her (which I did, and would then confess), of being interested in other women, etc. All the time she was hiding her emotional affairs with people very close to me. 

I was devastated, and still am completely devastated. When we decided to give it another chance I told her I wanted complete honesty, counseling, wanted to find out why she did what she did so I could be assured it wouldn't happen again, etc. 

So the last 4 weeks have been tough and an emotional roller coaster. She's treated me better than she has pretty much our entire marriage, and we are/were certainly moving in the right direction. 

I do not believe there was a PA, but I've been extremely suspicious and do not trust her. I've been snooping through her emails and facebook account. 

So today I discovered that she was also sending emails to another friend who she was very close to as a teenager. Not regular emails, but she put a lot of time and attention into these emails making sure they were well written and witty. They honestly looked as bad or worse than anything between my wife and my brother or pastor.

I pressed her about it today, and she admitted that she was attracted to this other guy, as well as several others. She had emailed them and spent time corresponding with them (she spends a ton of time corresponding with people via email and facebook). I am really upset because she didn't tell me about these other guys who she corresponded with when I asked her to be completely truthful with me.

She told me today that she started the habit of having crushes on lots of different guys when she was a teenager, and that she would communicate with them by email. Again, nothing explicit, nothing sexual in nature, but just very detailed thoughtful correspondence. She tells me that his habit just continued into our marriage. I know that she was frustrated with me and demonstrating the signs of an unfaithful spouse while getting all of her emotional stimulation out of email and facebook correspondence with probably 10 different men over the course of our marriage. She was fantasizing about them, but never discussed anything sexual. I'm 95% sure there was never a PA. 

I feel devastated. I've worked so hard on our marriage and our family and instead of spending time trying to develop an emotional bond with me she spent all sorts of time going outside of our marriage to get her emotional needs satisfied. 

She tells me that she LOVES me and RESPECTS me now, but that when we were married she really only was attracted to me and respected my intelligence. She has not loved and respected me like I feel I deserved, and she didn't have the decency to be honest about how she felt. 

I really love my wife, but now I feel like MY emotional needs are not satisfied. I feel like I've been humiliated and my self esteem is shot. I've been working hard at this marriage but I wasn't good enough for my wife to satisfy her emotional needs or to keep her from developing crushes on lots of other guys. 

My wife made me feel like dirt for years for various things (porn, smoking pot, and lying to her about the aforementioned) (in retrospect I think I started smoking pot because I was unhappy in my marriage because my wife didn't love me, she wouldn't kiss me, she wasn't supportive even though I worked FT and put myself through school to become a professional). However, whenever I'd lie to her I'd feel guilty and confess. While this was ongoing she lived a giant lie for YEARS, she lied to me to my face when I got suspicious and questioned her about some of these guys, she wanted to go to marriage counseling to talk about how I lied to her when she was actively concealing her own faults. Then she accuses me of the exact behavior that she's done OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. 

I feel like MOST of these problem were in the first 6-7 years of our marriage, and I was miserable, but didn't know what was happening. I think the same problems have persisted to a lesser extent over the last 2 years until D-day. 

I really want to stay with my wife and rebuild our family. She feels terrible about what she's done. But I don't trust her. I think she has something wrong with her that allows her to be so incredibly dishonest for a long period of time while justifying her actions and demonizing my lesser flaws (I'm not saying I'm faultless, but I've never done anything like this). I just don't know how I can be happy in our marriage knowing that I wasn't good enough to fill my wife's need for emotional support and interesting conversation. After knowing that she went for years without giving me respect even though I was working so hard for our family. 

WHAT CAN I DO?!


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Just a little additional information. I was the first person my wife ever had sex with and I'm fairly certain she hasn't had sex with anyone else. 

She was the first and only person I've ever had sex with as well.

If she'd developed the habit of having sex with her crushes as a teenager I'm SURE this would have turned into multiple PAs, but I think this is a way for her to get the feeling she used to while relying on me for sex and a meal ticket. 

She DOES say she loves and respects me very much now. When she tells me why she respects me she tells me of all the things I did at the time she had no respect or love for me. She says she understands only now how badly she treated me and she's very sorry.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> I really want to stay with my wife and rebuild our family. She feels terrible about what she's done. But I don't trust her. I think she has something wrong with her that allows her to be so incredibly dishonest for a long period of time while justifying her actions and demonizing my lesser flaws (I'm not saying I'm faultless, but I've never done anything like this). I just don't know how I can be happy in our marriage knowing that I wasn't good enough to fill my wife's need for emotional support and interesting conversation. After knowing that she went for years without giving me respect even though I was working so hard for our family.
> 
> WHAT CAN I DO?!


Mate... why? Why stay with her? She has humiliated with you for the entirety of you marriage. Nothing, *nothing* you could have done can justify a _nine year charade marriage_. 

Your wife is spoiled goods. She should not be compelled to contact people she is attracted to. Especially since her _sole_ reason for contacting them _is her attraction to them_.

What's worse is her seeming desire to gloat about her emotional affairs with your brother and pastor. She told you that she enjoyed interacting with other men during a fight with you? Why else would she tell this to you, if not to hurt you? No, no, no. Bad. Cruel and _evil_.

And she's still trying to establish emotional connections with other men, to this day. And you feel she is sorry? She feels terrible? How do you know? Crocodile tears? Talking? Words are wind. Has she taken any _action_ in making things better for the marriage? How is she helping you heal? I daresay she's _not_. It seems like _you_ are doing all the work.

Since you want advice on recovery, the first thing you need to do is expose the affair. Maybe your brother and pastor didn't realize they were causing a problem (though I'm sure they knew it was inappropriate). But she made it crystal clear that she was seeking these men out for emotional affairs. Maybe even physical affairs, though I'm sure you don't want to think that at the moment.

Do you still have the original text? Expose her affair to everyone she cares about. Expose it to her mother, father, brothers, etc. Expose it to your family. Expose it to your friends. You cannot fix this horrible marriage if she doesn't face any consequences for her actions. A bit of humility may do her some good.


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## Crazytown (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't know what to tell you... She needs IC for SURE I believe. She's way too interested in outside validation for a married woman. Way too interested...
This wasn't a one time thing. She's ALWAYS been emotionally involved with men outside the marriage. It's up to you if you can handle that. No overnight fix I can guarantee that.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sound like my life but longer.

Your chick is a liar so lets talk about the 5% of the possiblity there has been a PA........WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your wife is a serial cheater just like mine. In your case it was an emotional need, in my case it was a physical need. There comes a point were we have to commit to a change as individuals and if your spouse wants to change then great you both can go on to a healthy and fullfiling marriage. But only if both of you put in the work to be better people.

In my case I was physiclly and emotionally abusive and I made the changes for my self and was moving on. My wife was a serial cheater and she made the changes and desided to tag along with me. So I let her.

These changes can only happen when you are self aware of the problem and learn the tools to correct the problem In my case it was a years worth of anger management In my wifes case its on going with IC and dealling with her depression and self esteem issues.

My point to all this is you can start looking at your self and do what you need to do to stop being Mr. Nice Guy and finding the confidence in letting her go. Then it will be up to her to make the changes thru here own action to go get help for some childhood issue that makes her addicted to attention b/c daddy wasn't there.

Any way lets keep it simple, she can give you all the lip serves you will listen to, it is up to her to own her infidelity and it is all her crap for the choice she made thru out the years.

So you have two issues 1) an unhealthy marriage and 2) how she handles a unhealthy marriage. 

Sh!t there is even a third issue .....thats how you handle a unhealthy marrige.

Lets face it, so many years ago we wouldn't be in this mess if we dealt with our unhealthy marriage's.

But the thing is we dealt with it by distancing our self and do what we needed to get by and guys like us don't find chicks to screw to get by.

Our chicks how ever made the choice to deal with a problem by seeking attension from other men...and in my case my wife payed for that attention with sex.

If you want this to work out you chick need to understand way she needs so many boyfriend and learn the tools to affair proof her marriage. 

I can tell you that after 13 years and 20 guys my wife had to face her problem and learn how to affair proof her marriage.

I could go on. 

But remember this is not your fault her infidelity is 100% her own crap.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Geez thats was long......back to your question.

Stand up prush your self off and stop tolorating her crap. Show her the confidence in leeting her go by letting her know she can stay in the house only if she cancels her FB account stay off the computer and getts some IC.

I found the tough love approuch is the best way to get your wife the help she needs or frees your self from 9 years of emotional torture


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you for the comments. 

Just to clarify my wife hasn't been contacting other men SINCE d-day, but I just found out about more contacts she had years ago and had not disclosed. Will get to responding to the other comments shortly.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

My wife IS making changes. She has treated me like she has never treated me before in our marriage. She is not nagging/controlling, she is telling me she loves me, our sex life has never been better. 

She dragged her feet a little bit on getting counseling, but she's setting up an appointment for IC and for MC. I've told her that as a condition of reconciliation she MUST do IC to get to the bottom of these two issues:

1) Why does she develop crushes on guys and need to correspond with them (even if not to do anything physical or even hint at it); and 
2) Why is she able to compartmentalize and lie while feeling no remorse and then finding a great amount of fault in me for ALLEGED commissions of the same sort of thing she's done. 

I've put my foot down and she knows that we may be getting a D. I stayed with her for YEARS because of the kids, and honestly right now I'm staying with her because I love her (but only if she treats me with the respect and love that I DESERVE). I don't want to get a D until I'm convinced that we've tried to work this out, and because this was hidden from me we haven't had a CHANCE to work it out for our whole marriage. 

Also, I want to be with someone. I can't imagine being alone, and honestly I feel like we could have a great marriage. I've become quite successful, but I'm also 28 and have 4 kids. I'M DAMAGED GOODS NOW...seriously, what woman would even want to throw away her prospects by being with a guy with 4 kids. That either means she couldn't have her own kids or we'd have a gigantic fricking family. 

I'm not saying I'm staying with my wife because I can't find anyone else, but my options are seriously limited and that's one of many concerns. If I do decide that these problems can't be resolved WE ARE GETTING A D. 

The thought of getting divorced just leaves me hopeless...I feel pretty horrible right now as is even though our marriage is currently better than it's ever been before (because she's making an EFFORT for the first time in our marriage).


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Sorry to keep posting...

She's asked me WHAT she can do to try to make up for this and show her love and respect for me....I just don't know what to tell her. I don't feel like anything she can do now can make up for the betrayal and humiliation that I feel. 

When I asked her about these correspondences she says that AT THE TIME she didn't really think what she was doing was wrong. She'd battle the temptation to feel emotionally attached, and knew that was wrong, but she'd keep corresponding with these guys and not tell me what she was feeling. She says that these were her friends and she's always communicated with her friends like this, and she'd battle the temptation to think inappropriate thoughts. None of the hundreds of emails look especially objectionable in and of themselves, but coupled with her state of mind I find them to be a horrible betrayal. 

I've also noticed a pattern. When she talks to her female friends she's much more straight and to the point. She put much MUCH more thought and attention into showing that she was smart and witty with the emails she exchanged with almost all of her male friends. 

In retrospect I was suspicious on numerous occasions and asked her why she spent so much time talking to some people (although at that point I only saw the tip of the iceberg). She always denied any sort of inappropriate thoughts and just said they were friends. Now I know she had inappropriate thoughts with pretty much all of these pen pal type relationships. I also know that she resented me and refused to connect with ME on an emotional level while she was connecting with others...lots of others...on that emotional level that I always wanted.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

What steps has she taken to affair proof her marriage?

My concern would be the computer, and her attemts/ addiction to continue.

Has she used the old "I need FB to stay intouch with family" line or has she cancealed her account?

What about her cell number has she changed it?

These are real important step to help you heal.

I can also tell you....just like everyone else that time will help. Its been 2-1/2 yrs since I confronted my wife and we are in a successful R. Even after 19 yrs of hell we have found our selves.

For now keep telling your self "you diserve good things" and repeat as needed.

I wish I had some magic pill to take the pain away but I don't...there isn't one, but you stop letting her crap define who you want to be.

Its not what knocks us down that matters, its how we get back up that counts.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

She hasn't cancelled her FB acct. and I haven't asked her to (yet). However, I have been monitoring her FB activity and her email activity regularly and see no communication with any other men right now. She's pretty much cut out contact with other men at this point, but again, this is a LIFELONG pattern for her so I'm worried that she will fall back into the habit again.

She is spending much less time on FB and email than normal. I think she would cancel the FB accct. if I asked her to. 

I have not changed her cell number, but she didn't have much contact with OM on the cell anyway. Her style is more the prosaic pen pal relationship. I know there was communication with the pastor by cell phone, but that has stopped completely since I told her it would not be tolerated. It had pretty much tapered off by the time she confessed to me (but only a couple months beforehand).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think both of you need to eliminate any temptation by getting rid of the account.
In my case it was GNO (girls night out) and texting. So my wife no longer goes out with her "friends" and changed phones.

Even though emailing was a very small part she isn't computer savy, I did how ever find a guy "fishing" on her email acount, since she never goes there I deleted it and haven't seen any other attempts.

My big point to all of this is the fact that the temptation to responde to these guys fishing for a response is great. Your chick may not contact them, but some day soon she will get the " whats up...how are your doing " and that is just catalist to a relaps. 

I suggest you ask her to affair proof her marriage and if turning off FB is just another tool then go for it. Just like IC and MC.

Don't screw around with your marriage so take *ALL* the step needed to protect it


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I just told her that she will need to delete her FB account, cut of all contact with any man who she has feelings for, and to tell me whenever she starts having a crush on a man so I know how to deal with it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Good.

What tools do you have in dealing with her issues?

As I have told you before my chick was a serial cheater, we both did alot of sweeping it under the rug...hence it continued.

My biggest concern is these addictions are hard to break if not confronted and studied.

Both of you educate your self and face this painful crap head on. 

MY fWW (former wayward wife) started about 7 yrs into the marriage and it snowed ball for the next 13 yrs...it 2-1/2 yrs ago that we both had had enough and really made soem changes.

My point, stay vigilant and don't be affraid to snoop...at least for the next year. Don't do what we did and blow it off time and again...stay on top of it....it is your life now for at least the next couple of years.

I strongly believe it take at least a year to complete a lifestyle change that I am talking about and even then it may not be successful, but atleast you can say you tried.

False R are not uncommon!


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the next step is to have her get IC where she can deal with:

1) Why does she develop a crush on practically every guy she meets; and

2) Why did she hide it from me for so long, how can she justify herself?


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

What does your brother and pastor have to say about all this cr*p?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

So, let's cut to the heart of the matter.

You had a bad marriage. 

Why? 

Because your wife was putting all her Emotional Energy into relationships with multiple men, so there was no EE left for her poor husband.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its not about *justiying* or excuses its about behaviors and correcting them and learning the tools to change the unhealthy ones.

What she did was unjustifiable in my opinion just like in my case, but learning how to change is the ticket and enjoying the reward for a healthier way of life.

Hell I can justiy pushing my fWW around, but that didn't get me any were and it just continued.

See the difference?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> You had a bad marriage. Why? Because your wife was putting all her Emotional Energy into relationships with multiple men, so there was no EE left for her poor husband


Excatly. Emotional energy is limited. She has been draining hers towards those OMs. You have been tryon to fill a glass with a huge crak in the bottom.

A must read. For both.
NOT Just Friends Dr. Shirley Glass A quiz ---> Here
Also:
Emotional Infidelity. M. Gary Neuman
She should be the one to make the heavy lifting at rebuilding the marriage marriagebuilders has tons of good material online and books for this.
The five love language is another good read.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> So, let's cut to the heart of the matter.
> 
> You had a bad marriage.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. A big part of the problem is that I did not stand up for our marriage to demand mutual love and adoration. This is what I'm doing now, and I don't think it's too late. Time will tell.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its never to late, your WW can turn the corner with you or you can move on and share this new found wisdom with some one that will appretiate it.
So often we get in this rut and it snowballs on us. There is alot to be said about being assertive and setting boundries. In doing this it shows confidence and make no mistake chicks dig confident guys.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

TBT said:


> What does your brother and pastor have to say about all this cr*p?


I haven't confronted either one directly. I left the church, and my parents know a little bit of what happened. I feel like both were being inappropriate by entertaining all these emails and conversations without telling me about them. But again, they look relatively innocent on their own. It's just when you realize that my wife spent more time thinking about her emails/fb messages to each of them than she's spent thinking about our marriage and it makes my blood boil. Especially after what she's told me, and the fact that I know she's basically been in love with them while not being in love with me.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

About her being in love with other men she knew, and not you, it seems strange to say, but that has nothing to do with you. It seems that she fell in love with almost EVERY other man she knew. *This is a sign that she is deeply damaged emotionally*; it is not a reflection on your performance as her husband.

I think her behavior is a sign of a much deeper psychological problem going back to her teenage years, when this behavior first started, or even earlier in her childhood. I think it will be a long hard road to identify the reason for the behavior and even longer for her to be able to end the behavior. 

The problem is inside her head. Facebook and email were the means by which you could see the visible sypmtoms of the problem. Although I agree that she should give up Facebook and email for the time being, I think she will continue to fall in love with other men as she meets them or in any way becomes acquainted with them. She just won't be able to express it on Facebook or through email.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

It was way out of line for your brother to have frequent correspondence with your wife via email and not tell you about it. I wouldn't trust him around your wife.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Now I'm really screwed and don't know what to do. 

I told WW last night that she needed to cancel her FB account and stop emailing OMs. She was willing to do this. 

Today I told her that I was really upset because I TOLD her when we started R that I needed her to tell me the whole truth. I uncovered more lies and deceit and confronted her about them. 

This morning I told her I needed to know everything about other men that she's been infatuated with while we were married. She told me that there were others but that we had moved away and she wasn't going to tell me because she hadn't emailed them. I told her that if we were going to reconcile that I needed to know everything. She told me she won't tell unless we go to marriage counseling and an objective counselors says that she should confess it. 

I got angry and said we were done. She's the one who screwed up and SHE needs to help me move on. If she's not telling me the whole truth then we can't move on. She flat out refused to tell me anymore. She said she had said all she is going to say. 

I started packing her stuff and told her she was going to move out. 

She ends up storming off, taking our baby, and our family car with all of the kids' car seats, and leaving. So I'm now stuck at home with the 3 older kids, no car and no car seats to take them anywhere. I have work obligations starting tomorrow and I have to try to find some way to have someone come to the house to take care of the kids so I can be to work. There's no way I can get these obligations covered due to the nature of my work. I have no family in town and don't know anyone that can come to my house to watch the kids. 

I changed her email and FB passwords, I cut off her cell phone, and cancelled her debit card. I know she bought gas before I was able to cancel her debit card so she has at least a couple hundred mile range. I assume she's going to go stay with friends or family but I don't know. 

WTF now?!


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Expose her affair ASAP and start D proceedings


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Expose the affair to everyone. _Everyone_. Her parents, siblings, etc. and yours. Call in a favor to the nearest available family member. Ask that they watch the kids.

Make a mad-dash to your divorce lawyer first thing in the morning. 

How _dare_ she make demands. The _gall_. I swear, the stones these cheaters have are monumental.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

My closest family is 1000 miles away. I'm so screwed. I don't know what to do. I can't even drive them to a daycare.

If I neglect my responsibilities over the next couple days I would risk losing my professional license.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Take a deep breath. Be cool.

Depending on how much money you have saved-up, you can do a few things.

You can ask a free family member to fly over ASAP (pay for their flight yourself) until things settle down.

You can rent a car of your own for the time being.

You can take a cab to the daycare center before heading to work.

You can... buy another car? Maybe? Or ask friend if they have a car they can spare?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Then either rent or borrow a vehicle immediately. You can go to goodwill or a salvation army store to get cheap car seats. Depending on where you're at, rental car companies like Enterprise will even bring the rental car to you. Don't you have ANY friends that can help you?


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I will look into a rental car. The catch 22 is I can't drive out to buy car seats without leaving the kids alone or taking them in the car without a car seat. I'll see if I can find a friend to help me go pick up car seats.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

The worst part is I'm just so damn depressed and don't know what to do. I just wish there were some way to get out of my work obligations. Damnit


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Look at it this way. The succubus you married is putting you through this. If it wasn't clear what your course of action was before she pulled this stunt, I hope your eyes are open now.

I think her actions have given you direction, truth be told. She's made it nice and easy to pursue the course you were leaning towards.

Grab life by the horns and show it who's boss. Your actions from here on will define you, so make yourself proud. Buck up, and rise to the challenge. Throw this bull into the ground.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Trying to get someone to help me go buy some carseats and get a rental car. I really hate this disgraceful excuse for a woman


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> I will look into a rental car. The catch 22 is I can't drive out to buy car seats without leaving the kids alone or taking them in the car without a car seat. I'll see if I can find a friend to help me go pick up car seats.


Don't some rental firms supply car seats for children, too?


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Good. 

Be sure to let her family (and yours) know what your wife is up to, and what she's done to you and her marriage. Because I _guarantee_ she will be telling them you kicked her out and paint you as a controlling scumbag.

Good luck, boss. Stay strong, and stay cool.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Isn't what she did potentially kidnapping? Just a thought...


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Got a friend picking up car seats. Will try to find out how to pick up a rental car now.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Stay dark a prioritize. Get a car. Get the seats. Go dark.

My point is stay focused force the depression out by making a plan and work the plan. 

Your wife needs to see how much this has hurt you and you did a good job on doing this.

Stay dark so it shows her the true damage she has caused. True remorse will bring her back. Fake remorse will keep her away.

Stay strong and and spend some time with the older ones whenyou get your business handled.

Depression will kick your @ss so fight it with all you got by taking care of business.

Is the car in your name?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Call the cops


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Yes, the car's in my name. I told her she needed to leave and she asked how she was going to leave with my car. I told her she could get a ride. Instead she just took off with the family car. 

She could have used my other vehicle (also in my name) to take just one kid, but she intentionally screwed me over.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Sadly she's not liable for kidnapping because we have joint custody of the child. In the state we're in it is not a criminal offense for one parent to take a child and not tell the other parent unless the health or safety of the child is being endangered. I could try to get an emergency protective order but I don't know how the hell to do that without finding out where she is to serve her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You did the right thing. Do you attend church? If you do they may be able to help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> She told me that there were others but that we had moved away and she wasn't going to tell me because she hadn't emailed them. I told her that if we were going to reconcile that I needed to know everything. She told me she won't tell unless we go to marriage counseling and an objective counselors says that she should confess it.


She said she had not emailed them and would not confess unless a counselor told her to confess.

No email = probably means face-to-face in person meetings.

Refusal to confess probably means that it went physical and she would rather leave than tell you.

Sorry - but I think what she has told you so far is just the tip of the iceberg.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> Sadly she's not liable for kidnapping because we have joint custody of the child. In the state we're in it is not a criminal offense for one parent to take a child and not tell the other parent unless the health or safety of the child is being endangered. I could try to get an emergency protective order but I don't know how the hell to do that without finding out where she is to serve her.


File a police report. If the car is in your name only then she stole it . They will look for it. Tell them you are concerned about the safety of your child considering her state of mind when she left. 

Get a lawyer to advise you about a RO or PO. If one is issued and signed by a judge, the police will serve her. All you have to do is call if she shows up at the house. I also think that you can legally change the locks if a RO or PO is issued that covers the residence (lawyer to confirm.)


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

So you are or aren't going to report the car stolen?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Stopping the ATM was a good idea. I did the same thing and it really brought the reality of it all out and helped my fWW get closer out of the fog.

I guess I was lucky, but at the time She thought I was the evilest person alive. I remember telling her that if she continues to behave this way it will get worse.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

UPDATE:

So she just came back. I think she realized she had nowhere to go and no way to communicate without her cell phone and no credit card. 

She told me that NOW she's willing to tell me what I wanted to know. I told her that I was very clear that she needed to be honest with me and tell me the whole truth. She refused to tell me anything more without an objective marriage counselor telling her to do so. 

I told her that she hasn't been putting in the effort to try to work through this.

I told her that I won't believe what she tells me anyway because she probably just spent the last 3 hours concocting another lie to tell me. 

I told her that I feel like since there were other OM from before we moved away that she did not email that there MUST have been personal contact and that I believe she was probably having a PA with them because why else would she all the sudden refuse to give me any more details (in her words "I have nothing left to say"). 

She says that I'm just pushing her to confess every inappropriate thought she's ever had, and that it's not helping. 

I told her that I'm going to leave for a little bit to cool down and when I come back we're going to talk about child custody arrangements. I also said that I would pay for her rent for one month, but that she's going to need to find a job from then on (although if she divorces me she will take me to the cleaners on child support and alimony to the effect of about $5,000 a month...her hooks are set too deep...I didn't tell her this). 

I asked her if she wants to stay in our place or get an apartment. She said she will stay, so I am going to find an apartment for myself. I insist on having the kids 50% of the time, although this will mean I need to find a nanny or a good daycare. Even if I get the kids on the weekends I have a very busy work schedule so it's going to be difficult to work this out.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> You did the right thing. Do you attend church? If you do they may be able to help you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's one of the worst things about this. I DID until I found out she was having an EA with my pastor. Now almost all of our friends think I left her (from about 2 months ago when I found out) and the kids. 

Oh, and there's nothing explicit in the emails between her and the pastor, but they were ongoing...hundreds of emails over a year or two, and I didn't know about them. 

They mostly consist of her trying to show how smart and clever she is and trying to get praise and attention.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Hey D is just as hard as R.......

But one thing here, I thought you needed everything to try to move on with her, and she comes back and agrres to tell you and then you pushe her away.

I mean sur eit could be all lies but I would have taken the chance and heard what she had to say.

I'm think she took the time to think back all those years and draw on her memeory bank to recall it ....you think she was coming up with more lies.....it was a 50/50 chance but atleast you could have gotten something even if there was a huge possiblity that it was half truths.

I personal think you might have a chance to get "something" more if you at least rethink your stance.

Again you just think she realized she had no were to go were I think she needed to really think about the shameful past she was living and how to tell you.

INK

Thats My $0.02


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

IMHO there may have been some remorse there by her coming back. why not go to your brothers house or a friend, I mean if she really wanted to she could have some one....hell she had a full tank of gas.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Ok that's a valid point The Guy. Maybe I will go back tonight once I've cooled off and hear what she has to tell me. I'm just so tired of this. She should have realized that we were on very thin ice when this R started a month ago and done everything she could. 

Instead she's put off getting into counseling, continued to blame me, and try to shift blame to me by asking if I've had an EA (this all started with her accusing me of an EA with a coworker), etc. 

I feel like she's cooperating with R, but not taking initiative. It's like pulling teeth to get anywhere. I've had to nag her to get into counseling, and she committed to counseling a month ago...still hasn't happened yet. She finally made an appt. with her primary care dr. to get a referral last week, but it could be another month before she is able to see a professional.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

She's not remorseful for her actions. True remorse would be her pro actively seeking marriage counselling and bending over backwards to your every demand. She has to win you back, not the other way around.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think the past month she was looking at the old you. Today and tomarrow she sees the new you and understandes what she needs to do to be with the new you.

Complexity has a point and I want to clarify that I mentioned "some remorse" there is still alot left as for as full remorse transpiers.

But IMHO I think your WW hasn't seen the new IDKWTD...so now that she has today....open the door and see if she is worth keeping.

Hell what do I know, she may not like the new IDKWTD, and now that the power has shifted and she sees you are willing to let her go she might go, there by proving Complexity perspective on her remorse or lack there of.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> I told her that I feel like since there were other OM from before we moved away that she did not email that there MUST have been personal contact and that I believe she was probably having a PA with them because why else would she all the sudden refuse to give me any more details (in her words "I have nothing left to say").


You got her number right here... The refusal of talking about the other men when she had admitted to your pastor (again the freakin pastor...) and BROTHER?!! What could be worse than that? Only one explanation left. That what is down there is even more shameful than an EA with your brother. In my mind this means a PA somewhere down the line. It's got to be that. I think nothing purely emotional trumps an EA with your own brother. So, nail her down and hard and demand full disclosure. That is, if you are really into this R thing. Because this woman seems to have a pattern of non-wife material.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Don't back off on complete honesty. Even if after that MC sides her you get up and get out the MC's office. Those innapropiate relationship are a huge part of your life, she's not to decide AGAIN now the cat is out he bag what you has to know or not about your own marriage. She reserved that right way before. Complete, radical honesty for now on is the only way to go.
Also she still doesn't grasp the inmense impact this emotionaly retarded mindset and behavior had/still has in the whole marital dinamic.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Well I'm a fickle guy. I talked to WW again today and had a very long conversation. 

She spilled a lot more details, I guess it's possible that she was fabricating to protect herself but I certainly got at more of the truth. I got a lot more information that was painful, but at the same time it does help me move closer to closure. 

I made it very clear that I may divorce her, and I am leaning that direction right now, but that if she can completely prove to me that she has changed and is changing that I will consider reconciliation. 

I made it very clear that her previous attempts at reconciliation didn't even come close to good enough, and she promised me that she would do much better. She was extremely remorseful (more so than I've ever seen her before). 

I asked her if she would be with me right now if I had done the same thing to her, and she said she probably would have left me (although not filed for divorce). 

She agreed to sign a post nuptial agreement where she would give up all rights to alimony and to our community property. This shows me that I think she is sincere in her goals of reconciliation, and also that she's not just trying to hold on until our 10th year of marriage (which would equate to long term alimony payments) to get a divorce. 

I asked her if she would still try to do everything she had promised to reconcile even if I left her and lived apart. She said she would. I asked her if she would be more likely to try harder at our reconciliation if I moved out, and she said she would try as hard either way. 

I think for now I'm going to get the post nup, live with her for a while longer, and demand that she make a complete 180 in her approach to me. I don't know how it will work out, but I'm going to give it a little more time. I don't want to make a mistake and get a D only to regret it later.

Also she agreed to tell the truth to a few common friends that she tried to convince I had left her (without explaining the real reason).


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

And make sure to get the post-nup done before she hypnotizes you with daily BJs.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

keko said:


> And make sure to get the post-nup done before she hypnotizes you with daily BJs.


:iagree:


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

She spilled a lot more details, I guess it's possible that she was fabricating to protect herself but I certainly got at more of the truth. I got a lot more information that was painful, but at the same time it does help me move closer to closure. 

Keep asking her. The more you ask, the lies start falling away.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She may have also realized that she needs to get her ducks in better order as you appear to have quickly cut off her tools to run: cell phone, money etc.

You may want to add a GPS tracker to your car so you can see where she goes if there is a next time.

Her reaction really makes it seem like there has been PA involved and she's hoping a MC will possibly be a neutral broker to confess it at, or perhaps she thinks she can convince the MC to pressure to your forget and rug sweep?

Either way, I'd push for polygraph with a focus on the PA aspect and if she's still secretly talking with men.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I really don't know if this is salvageable, because from what's been described she craves validation from other men outside of the marriage constantly. She doesn't care if she gets it from her husband, because she expects it as that's what he's supposed to do. And if she's been doing this their whole marriage, devoting all her emotional energy on OM and not spending it on her husband, then the whole marriage has been a lie. 

Even if they R, she needs that outside validation from other men to fill that void inside of her, and she's bound to do it again. Once a cheater, always a cheater, may well be true here. But I hope not.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> Well I'm a fickle guy. I talked to WW again today and had a very long conversation.
> 
> She spilled a lot more details, I guess it's possible that she was fabricating to protect herself but I certainly got at more of the truth. I got a lot more information that was painful, but at the same time it does help me move closer to closure.
> 
> ...


Keep squeezing her a little while longer. All this regret and love only came after you played hardball. Good idea on the postnup there. If she isn't just cake eating she should sign it. In fact, i can't believe guys aren't being told more often to ask this of their wives.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Just feeling numb today. Could emotional detachment be setting in or is this just one of the myriad emotions that I go through on this rollercoaster?

Need to get that post nup posthaste!


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

At first after DDay 1 she told me that she didn't love me during our marriage until the last 2 or 3 years. 

Last night she told me she didn't love me at all until AFTER Dday1 and she knew she was going to lose me. I honestly think that perhaps she's incapable of feeling love (except possibly to our children) and that "love" is just the thrill of the chase. Maybe that's why she wanted all these other men, and now all the sudden wants me when she's about to lose me.

She also confessed to 2 texts and a phone call to one of the OM the day after Dday 1. She says he doesn't even know how she felt about him and she was just going to him for emotional support because I wasn't talking to her. Stupid b****. 

She also changed her story up. After Dday 1 she said she had stopped herself from thinking these thoughts and things had been getting better for some time. Now she admits that the EA was ongoing until discovery and getting worse and worse. 

She admits that it probably would have escalated to a PA eventually since she was getting more brazen.

She admits that she fantasized about sex with my brother and pastor, even when she was having sex with me. 

She denies kissing or having sex. She admits to intentionally "sitting next to" these guys and trying to "bump into them".


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

This woman need IC like breathing, with a pro-marriage therapist. I'd demand to be there the first apointment to be sure she put it all in the table.
I'm sorry man.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

This morning she told me that while she had never loved me during our marriage she DID love a former boyfriend, and another guy who she was into before we started dating who rejected her. 

I guess I appreciate more honesty, but I just feel horrible. I want to die except I would never do that to my children. 

I'm just hopeless because I can't bear the thought of living with this if we stay together, and at the same time I feel so horribly depressed about NOT being with my wife who I HAVE LOVED for so long.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Since she doesn't love you but loves eating the cake you provide for her, why are you still with her? 

Ask that question to yourself a few times.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't know. I'm thinking of how to protect myself. Trying to make an appointment with a family law attorney. 

She says she loves me now. Sorry, out of a 10 year relationship, loving me for the last 2 months is insufficient.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Divorce Forum and Child Custody Forum • View topic - THE LIST (Print It)


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> She says she loves me now. Sorry, out of a 10 year relationship, loving me for the last 2 months is insufficient.


If this is something you feel she really believes then she may not know what love is about.Have you ever asked her what it means to her and what it entails? Maybe it's me,but I just find this really odd.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I will probably ask her what she means by "love" but right now I'm just tired of being angry, and tired of questioning, and tired of talking to her. I feel like I'm detaching. 

Give me 2 hours and it might be a totally different story. 

After Dday 1 (I say Dday 1 and Dday 2, but really it's just been a lot of trickletruthing since Dday 1...that's almost as bad as a relapse) I took to drinking BIG TIME. I've always been a regular drinker, but I just went off the deep end. It affected me very negatively and my emotions were an absolute roller coaster. 

After being split up for 3 weeks I just decided I was going to have a mental break down if I couldn't shut off the rage. I decided to forgive her and demand change and absolute truth and honestly. She disrespected me by continuing to lie to me. 

I'm not willing to do that again. I'm not even capable of going through that again without horrible things happening. I reverted to moderate drinking as soon as R started (not a problem except in the caloric sense)

On Saturday when I found out she'd STILL been lying to me I decided to quit drinking until I'm able to move on. I can't let that happen again...those 3 weeks were horrible. 

The interesting thing about those 3 weeks of HEAVY drinking was that I learned I AM NOT a cheater. I spent so many nights drinking until the sun came up, and I met lots of hot chicks, and literally had beautiful women throwing themselves at me. 

I didn't follow through with anything and didn't even WANT to, but it certainly does help me realize that if I WERE to move on I can certainly find good sex. It's just that I want a lot more than good sex. That's why I don't want to leave the wife I LOVE. 

But then the rational side of me says that ANY woman at random is far more likely to treat me with more love and respect than my wife. 

Even though my WW didn't have a PA (that I know of) I feel like she's just humiliated and disrespected me at every possible level. She's lied to me, she's disrespected me, she never loved me, treated me like crap, made me feel like I was a dirtbag and that she was a martyr. Because she never told me the truth I had 4 kids with her. Now my kids are doomed to live with separated parents OR I'm doomed to live with a woman who did this to me. 

Even if I leave, I'm sure sex won't be hard to find, but my chances at a long term relationship are seriously diminished. I'm 28 and have become very successful for my age, but who the hell wants to spend their life with someone with 4 of their own kids? Most potential life partners would either want: 1) no kids; or 2) kids of their own. If I had 1 or 2 kids then #2 would be more realistic. Not many women under 30 are interested in coming into a relationship with 4 kids. 

I could look at older women, but my WW is 5 years older than me. Part of me just tells me that if I were to move on I don't want to do it with an older woman. This is weird, but I almost feel like it's a trigger for me. I got married at 19, had TONS of responsibility thrust on me while WW just gladly ate cake, and then tried to f***ing manipulate me, lie to me, control me. I was totally taken advantage of and it pisses me off.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Sorry, out of a 10 year relationship, loving me for the last 2 months is insufficient


Ut's utter buls!t. 
Option A - If he never loved you she still doesn't love you. DDay doesn't bring love out of nowhere. It foolish. At most she's battling being rejected, it's her ego, not her heart.
Option B -. She alwyas loved you, she can't accept she's a serial emotional cheater, an emotional vampire, in her proud way, but has to justify herself rewriting the story to protect her weak/overinflated ego.

Anyhow she has very little understanding of love. So likely a mix of A-B.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Acabado said:


> Anyhow she has very little understanding of love. So likely a mix of A-B.


Don't know if you've read M. Scott Peck's "The Road Less Travelled" The Op's wife's "crushes' just struck a chord with me that somehow resonated with Peck's belief that some people can confuse cathecting with love as he views it.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

TBT said:


> Don't know if you've read M. Scott Peck's "The Road Less Travelled" The Op's wife's "crushes' just struck a chord with me that somehow resonated with Peck's belief that some people can confuse cathecting with love as he views it.


Just had to google cathecting and I have a reasonably developed vocabulary  

I think she may confuse cathecting with love although interestingly she has invested emotional energy in several people including some of the more serious emotional affairs where she does not say she "loved" them.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I find her claim that she's only loved you since D-day both heartbreaking and insulting. She doesn't love you, she loves the security you provide her hence "I was afraid I was going to lose you".


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> Just had to google cathecting and I have a reasonably developed vocabulary
> 
> I think she may confuse cathecting with love although interestingly she has invested emotional energy in several people including some of the more serious emotional affairs where she does not say she "loved" them.


That's interesting,but some people don't always readily admit love,such as a person whose mother or father treated them poorly.There is an investment of emotional energy there as well.

Yeah,it's a hard thing to pin down.Personally,my thinking is more in line with Peck's belief that love is a willingness to extend oneself to enhance our own or another's spiritual(inner) worth.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

WW is going to her first IC session right now. If she doesn't open up she's not going to get anything out of it. She's not happy about going. She left the house crying, and asked me if I loved her. I just told her that I'd always loved her. 

I'm starting to detach at this point, but I just don't feel right about ANY options right now. 

I don't know if I want to live the rest of my life with WW even if she DOES change, but the thought of living apart is excruciating.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

She just went to IC and says it went pretty well and that she put everything on the table. She says the IC told her she couldn't believe that I'd stayed with her since WW never loved me. I can't believe it either...

The counselor wants me to come next week...not sure what I think about that.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Likely IC spotted WW's psychological make up, she/he wants to share it with you, the prospects for recovery.
I think is good you can talk with IC. Put on the table your marital story, your perspective, the shocking (and perpetually changing) statements WW did since DDay. Print this thread to gain perspective before you apointment.

Good luck.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Q: Were you masturbating while thinking of OM?
A: Quit tormenting me


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Don't back off with your wuestions. Ever. She owes you radical honesty. If you are to believe her she's been lying from the very beginning you met. She's not entitled to avoid this anymore.
I'm thinking your wife's IC call might be for another reasons; she demonized you, she's painting you as "emotionaly abusive" for questioning her since DDay. If that's the case tell IC you are entitled to answers about what has been YOUR life. Period. You are not going to give up to your right of honesty ever.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

There's quite a bit you don't even know about your WW. You said you married her when you were 19 years old, that she was the first and only woman you've had sex with. Your WW is FIVE years older than you, but claims you're her first sex partner (she was already 24 years old!). Then she admits to having a former boyfriend, and having lots of crushes with other men, in addition to having EAs with other men during your marriage AND she's only loved you since DDay1? Yet none of it has ever gone PA? Seriously?

You don't need rubber boots to wade thru the bullsh!t, you're literally drowning in it. 










She's pulled the wool over your eyes all these years. She's a serial cheater. With all these revelations, I would seriously consider DNA testing your children to see if you're the biological father.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

If I could like the above post a thousand times.....


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

And don't discard the though of a polygraph test.
Again, If i'm right about WW'sIC don't back off with him/her. Tell you are more than ready to exit this marriage if you don't get the answers you are entitled to. For your WW's own admision all you had was basicaly a gigantic lie. WW has been robbing your feer will. You need shine light into darkness once for all if she wants you just even consider to stay with her.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

So obviously things are really bad. I have serious doubts about my ability to regain my trust with my wife. I feel like now I'M the one who's lacking emotional stimulation in my marriage. I am going through the hardest time of my life and want someone I love, trust, and am good friends with to talk to. I don't have that. 

I do however believe that my wife is making significant progress (although probably nowhere near enough to save our marriage). She went to IC, has told me FAR MORE of the truth (even if it IS trickle truth), is very remorseful MOST of the time, is not focusing on my faults all the time, tells me she loves me all the time (even though I figure she's probably faking it if she's only loved me for the last 2 months). 

This brings me to an important question. What should I do about sex? She's very open to having sex. After Dday 1 our sex life probably got as good as its ever been (and I think she was using sex in part to rugsweep). 

I really want to have sex, she is completely open to it, but I am afraid of her using it to try to rugsweep and move on. 

I may just want to have sex and STILL get divorced. I just don't freaking know. Thoughts?

EDIT:

We probably will look into a polygraph. I know this is not believable to most of you, but I think she most likely did NOT have a PA yet although it was certainly moving that direction. This is mainly because things were steaming up in the last 2 years, and I honestly don't see any independent evidence of a PA. I also think my brother and pastor probably were being sucked in without realizing WTF was going on, and don't think they would have had a PA, and if so there would likely be some evidence. 

I think she was moving in the direction where she WOULD have had a PA with an EA, but it would probably have been someone else. Keep in mind she's had tons of these low level type PAs...I think she would have eventually developed one with someone who was willing to cross that line and she would have jumped right in. 

Again, I may be a fool. I certainly don't TRUST HER WORD FOR IT, but I just don't think it actually got that far.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It think sex is the glue to keep this together.

Hell who knows, it may answers some of the doubts you have, it could be great or it could be a dud. So give it a try and see what happens.

Why not throw her a bone for taking the steps in going to the IC?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Btw as far as the question about rubbing one out while thinking of the OM. I think thats a question worth answering, but then again I think she answered anyway.

When is she going to start being honest with her self? She will do a service to her marriage if she stops hiding who she really wants to be.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

If I were you I'd go with the sex. In my book the fact you are considering D-R doesn't matter. Enjoy.

Has she shared something about her IC apointment¿
When do you have the apointment with her IC¿


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Went to MC tonight, and it was horrible. I'm leaning more and more towards D. 

First of all the MC DID try to focus on my inadequacies, etc. I shut that down really fast and explained that I certainly had problems of my own, but that the marriage was destroyed by WW. I was willing to do conventional MC at one point, but now this is all about her. 

So the MC then proceeds to start ripping into WW (in a counselor sort of way) and basically says that she may have some serious personality disorders (and hints that it may be narcissism). In any event the MC asks whether WW has anything that's happened to her that could have put her here, and WW says that there are some things but that she can't tell ANYONE, and they weren't things in her childhood.

Keep in mind, this is after she's promised me to tell me EVERYTHING. This is after I caught her lying, she trickle truth's and tells me AGAIN she's told me everything. 

So then I chime in and say that if she can't be upfront with her counselor then she's not going to fix her problems. 

She relents, and says she will tell her counselor about these "things" ONLY IF I PROMISE not to ask her what she said and if I went out to the car. 

So now I know she's still holding back. She's still lying. She still won't be upfront with me. And my mind imagines the worst. 

So afterward, WW gets back to the car and I tell her that she promised to tell me the whole truth, and she broke that promise. She promised to be open with me, and broke that promise. Now she coerces me to make a promise?! I asked her if she saw how fvcked up that was...she said YES SHE DID. 

Then a few minutes later she asked if she wanted me to tell her what she told the counselor, and that I ALREADY KNEW IT ANYWAY but she didn't want to make me mad. This is after saying she has stuff that she can't trust ANYONE to tell. I think she's just lying to me now to make me think whatever she told the counselor is something she already told me. I also think its possible that she chickened out and didn't tell the counselor whatever it was she's holding back.

The counselor wants her to go get an evaluation from a psychiatrist. I don't know WTF to think. Logically I should definitely just get a D, but I'm having a hard time letting go.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

MC and all that is a waste of $$ if she isn't being fully open and remorseful.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

I thought she was being more open. Now tonight that is totally shattered. 

Then she plays mind games with me by saying that her secret disclosures that she made me promise not to ask her about are just things I already knew but that would make me angry.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Her approach on letting out secrets isn't of a remorseful WW. 

Are you certain there isn't anything else you don't know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> The counselor wants her to go get an evaluation from a psychiatrist.


Given she's not cheating now you has vely little more to lose, if you wait for a while, beyond you emotional wellbeing so you detach from her. I'd wait for that psych evaluation. 
MC talking about your inadequacies was obviously to provide a safe environment before going ape**** with WW (potential PD, psych evaluation), she had to point out you are not perfect before dropping the PD bomb on WW. I think MC was wise to do it given WW likely blamed and demonized you in her earlier appointments, which is natural. It seems IC could see through her sh!t. Now I reiterate in my first post here, IC wanted to see you to hint you she got WW's serious issues.

Keep insisting on no more mind f0cking games and radical honesty, tell her you don't buy she told IC what you already knew.

Whether she is PD or whatever she learned it time ago, she can't simply do a 180 overnight. She has the same coping skills, she has to train herself.

ETA
... asuming it's fixable/manageable.


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

UPDATE:

Trying to do R, but I have serious doubts all the time. I just feel so incredibly disrespected I feel like I can't ever be "even" with my wife again, or ever really be even with her. I know this isn't a good reason, but I just have a hard time being with my wife when I feel I've been so incredibly disrespected. 

On the other hand, she's trying to do everything possible to reconcile. I haven't found any other signs of infidelity or future EA's on her part. We have 4 kids together. 

I really would LIKE to reconcile, but I feel like our relationship has been freaking destroyed over this. 

I know a lot of others here have gone through PA's and worse, this was probably only a relatively mild EA in the grand scheme of things, but the fact that it was with my brother and religious leader have just ripped me apart. 

I am tempted to just leave her and find someone else, but I'd feel guilty even though she was the one to have an EA. 

Anyone have any advice for me? I'm pretty hopeless right now.


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## Jonesey (Jul 11, 2011)

Don'tknowwhattothink said:


> Just a little additional
> 
> Please believe me,but I'm not trying to poor salt in your wound here..
> 
> ...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you read the books No More Mr Nice Guy (may or may not apply). You absolutely need to read Married Man Sex Life , misnamed, sounds like a sex manual, its not. Explains the male female relationship dynamic. His Needs Her Needs for you both plus Love Busters.

Get MMSL now though, you can download it and get the book at amazon. THIS IS A MUST FOR YOU TO READ. HNHN and LB are for you both.

I'm going to post a couple of things from other threads you need to read.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Originally Posted by marduk 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Betrayed Spouse Bill of Rights

30 Oct 2008 39 Comments

by jemjesterin adultery, betrayal, life, recoveryTags: affair, betrayed, cheating, infidelity, recovery, rights, self respect

I posted this today on a support board and felt I should share it here.

Betrayed Spouses Bill of Rights
In a world where a marriage is as likely to end as not, we sometimes forget what a partnership is in the early days after discovery of infidelity. We lose ourselves in the desperation to hold onto your loved one. Remembering your rights will help you no matter which path your marriage takes.

1- You have a right to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. By having an affair, your spouse has closed off the relationship with you and opened one with the OP (other person). You have a right to insist this is reversed for your healing and to assure that loyalties have been realigned.

2- You have the right to trust- but verify. Trust has been broken, ‘snooping’ is not snooping. It is verifying that someone proven to be a liar, sneak and cheat has changed their ways. Like an addict, a WS(wayward spouse) will often go back to their emotional fix. You have a right to verify this is not happening.

3- You have the right to insist there are only two people in the marriage. That choice was made when you made vows to each other. Even a moment with a third person is too much. You owe your WS no time to ‘think about it’. There’s a marriage or there’s none.

4- You have a right to know who the OP is, the flip of this is you do not have a right to harm or harass this person. Hold yourself to a better standard than the OP did.

5- You have the right to choose to give the gift of reconciliation or to divorce. You have the right to take some time to make that choice. If you one day realize you cannot live with the truth of what has been done, you have the right to walk away.

6- You have the right to insist your WS gets STD testing done and to see the results. Even if the WS claims it has not gotten physical, as many WSs will admit to “only a kiss” when it has gone much further.

7- You have the right to insist that your WS initiates and honors NC (no contact) immediately. You have a right to have input and to be a witness to how NC is established.

8- You have a right to set and enforce boundaries. This is not blackmail or any of the other negative words your WS might use. This you protecting yourself.

9- You have a right to hold onto evidence for as long as you need it to feel safe. Your WS has created an atmosphere of risk and danger. It is natural to have a safety net to counteract what has been brought into your marriage.

10- You have a right to know who your WS’s friends are and the nature of their interactions. If it is kept a secret, it is not healthy for the marriage and therefore something is amiss.

11- You have the right to out the affair to anyone you deem will help you and/or your marriage. This is not your secret to keep, this is not your shame to hold. You owe no protection to those that failed to protect you.

12- You have a right to heal on your timeline. As long as you are making steady progress, you are healing. It is a slow process and a WS that says things along the lines of, “You’ll never get over this!” does not have a full grasp of the damage betrayal causes. This is a healing process that takes from 18 months to five years.

13- You have a right to yell, cry, fall apart and otherwise handle this in any way that relieves some of the devastating pain, shock and loss of trust. Your world has been turned on its end. You do not have the right to physically, verbally or otherwise abuse your spouse.

14- You have the right to insist on a true marriage. A marriage of partners, where you love, honor and protect each other. If you feel your marriage is missing one of these components, either fixing it or leaving are your only two options. You don’t have the right to cheat and/or turn someone else into a betrayed spouse.

15- You have a right to love yourself. Often the betrayed have forgotten themselves as an individual. This is the optimum time to remind yourself that you are unique and lovable in your own right. That as much as you might love your spouse, you should love yourself enough to refuse any sort of mistreatment.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

This is one you definitely need to study with your wife. 

Since these posts are long, I will be glad to delete them if you like, just let me know.

Did you find out what she told the marriage counselor that she would not tell you?

Print this off and make your wife read it:

Read this:

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


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## Don'tknowwhattothink (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks for the advice chapparal...few responses...

MMSG - I have not read it, but I've read a LOT ABOUT IT on this forum over the last 5 months. I think I'm using a lot of the recommendations without having actually read the book. Will also look into the other two recommendations you gave. 

I've showed her the Bill of Rights before. 

I guess my biggest problem is I just can't seem to move on. She's tiring of the fact that I don't seem to be able to move on, but I feel like nothing will ever be the same. 

I don't trust her, I've ALWAYS loved my wife while she's not seemed to be so in love with me. It feels like our roles are reversing, I just have a hard time loving my wife anymore, and she certainly seems to be improving. 

No evidence of any communication with other men. I just feel drained. I'm tired of fighting, but I'm also really angry that I seem to be stuck with this life. 

I feel like my marriage with my wife will never be what it was. I had so much rage/shame/jealousy before, but right now I just can't get over the fact that my wife disrespected me so goddamn much to fantasize about my own brother and have all sorts of hidden friendly ebanter. 

She says she has a lot of respect for me, and treats me with greater respect now, but how can I get over this slap to the face? I want a wife who never shamed me like this. 

OTOH, we have 4 young kids, I'm the only income earner, and I'm only in my late 20s. If I get divorced I'm: 1) Going to get totally reamed on child support; 2) Going to get to spend much less time with my kids; 3) Don't think I'll be able to find someone else...I mean I'm not even 30 and I have 4 kids...if I were in my mid - 40s I could see having some options, but who the hell wants to be with a guy who's a) done having kids; and b) has 4 of his own to deal with; 4) as bad as things are I feel like if I divorced my wife I might be making a big mistake...I think I still have the potential to love her

I'm just kind of coming to the realization that I need to come up with some other way to live a fulfilled life other than having a good relationship. I've been overweight for a long time...lost a bunch of weight a few years ago, and have kept some of it off. Still overweight. Right now I think I need to just really focus on getting in shape so I can at least feel better about myself if nothing else. I'm starting to train for the shortest possible triathlon and of course I picked up bronchitis so I can't even exercise right now until I beat this stupid bug. 

Don't really know what advice I'm asking for. I just need to move on, and can't seem to do it. Anyone got ideas?


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