# Term "Nice Guy" is code for "entitled"?



## Six (Jul 2, 2011)

I had a thought. Haven't thought it through completely but this seemed like a good place to hear some thoughts.

The term "nice guy" I just realized may inadvertently have a subtext (overt or latent) of entitlement.

In short, [I'm Nice] so [I Deserve] [A Particular Outcome].

The somewhat flippant reply might be, "There are lots of decent people who don't get treated as they deserve." But I don't know, maybe there's a legitimate "nice guy" argument to be made?


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Six said:


> I had a thought. Haven't thought it through completely but this seemed like a good place to hear some thoughts.
> 
> The term "nice guy" I just realized may inadvertently have a subtext (overt or latent) of entitlement.
> 
> ...


I think that this could be argued, but looking at the motives could shine a more noble light on it. It starts, in my opinion, within a few moments of realizing that the relationship is long term, and will need work to maintain. The guy wants her to be happy, so it seems obvious that the way to accomplish this is by doing things to make her life easier. Cooking, washing the dishes,etc. He's picturing a life of harmony, and may even resent it if she doesn't simply swoon.

The problem comes from ignoring the laws of attraction. The woman wants to feel like she has to put some work in it, but in the sense that her sexual attractiveness sways an otherwise disinterested man. And to some, it helps if others see this dynamic in play and think that she is the lucky one.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think the sentence given:

[I'm Nice] so [I Deserve] [A Particular Outcome].

is really

[* I* am _X_ ] so [I Deserve] [A Particular Outcome].

Notice the bolded "I" and the "X" can be anything, eg. substitute with "special", "rich", "handsome", etc. etc. 

Entitlement seems to go a bit hand in hand with people who are narcisstic - which revolves around the all-encompassing me, myself, and I.

I actually thought that "nice guy" was a bit of a misnomer, as I see it more as a "wimpy" guy - meaning someone who is "weak and ineffectual".

Usually, weak/ineffectual people don't necessarily see themselves as being 'entitled' (someone feeling higher than others with a right to demand something from them), but they feel they are not allowed to ask for what they want (someone feeling lower than others with no right to demand something from them). That is the opposite of entitled.

Don't know - maybe it's all just semantics.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You make the words entitled and nice sound like they are bad things.

Are we as nice people not entitled to be treated with respect by others?

Are we as loving nice SO/spouses not entitled to be treated in kind by our SO/spouses?

Demonizing words such as 'nice' and 'entitled' do not serve any useful purpose.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I actually thought that "nice guy" was a bit of a misnomer, as I see it more as a "wimpy" guy - meaning someone who is "weak and ineffectual".
> 
> Usually, weak/ineffectual people don't necessarily see themselves as being 'entitled' (someone feeling higher than others with a right to demand something from them), but they feel they are not allowed to ask for what they want (someone feeling lower than others with no right to demand something from them). That is the opposite of entitled.
> 
> Don't know - maybe it's all just semantics.


I think a Nice guy might be weak, but largely in the Machiavellian sense. Weak as in that he doesn't see that his wife will lose respect for him if he doesn't take a deliberate approach to keeping the passion in the marriage.

I had a close friend who was normally very tough, but thought that keeping his wife happy involved being pleasant, and treating her like a Queen by doing everything for her. He thought that these acts of service would be directly proportional to her desire for him. Once married, he no longer pursued her, but instead considered it an expectation that she would desire him. She lost respect and they ultimately divorced. Through the course of it, he just couldn't understand when his friends tried to tell him that he needs to make her feel lucky to have him, and the acts of service should only be a matter of his inner character.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Good thoughts.

"Nice guy" - conflict avoidant.

"Nice guy" - defers or suppresses his own desires in favor of someone elses. Martyr.

"Nice guy" - puts responsibility and control of his own happiness and fulfillment in the hands of another. A child.

"Nice guy" - believes, and takes at face value the negative chastisments he is bombarded with that his basic and elemental expressions of masculinity are outdated, unwarranted, destructive, comical, and something to be ashamed of. 

But what is instead truth? 

Any engagement between two or more forces will be a contest of elemental power and control. Whether in war, sports, basic physics, or sexual relationships.

When one is at a disadvantage in power and control, what is left but cunning and diversion and deception?

So we see, if a man is taught or shamed to believe his masculine talents and tendancies are "off the table", then what is left for him to work with?

We then have the "Nice guy" archetype, attempting to use roundabout and backhanded tactics to achieve what he desires in a sexual relatoinship. 

Appeasement (whatever makes you happy dear), bribery (housework for sex), trickery (I'm not a pig like those other men), deception (I never masturbate no not me), dishonesty (no honey I never look at other women never even notice them).

So it is, women collectively may say they want this nice guy with their words, but the woman individually, her behaviors show she is as much attracted sexually to strength, honesty, power, dominance, as women were thousands and thousands of years ago.

So the good man has a choice, believe political correct words that he hears and reads in media, to become a "nice guy", and exchange his power and strength and honesty (and control), for deferment and appeasement, and most likely end up mired in resentment when this "deal" doesn't work out.

Or he can choose to trust what he experiences in actions and behaviors, that his masculinity was never outdated in the past, that his masculinity is very much in demand today, and his masculinity very much in need to build a bright future tomorrow!

And no matter how effective this attitude is in his career and social situations, no more is this true than in sexual relationships especially.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I still think many women would want a guy to be "nice", but not be a "nice" guy (someone who is weak, doesn't stand up for himself), if that makes sense.

In otherwords, I think most women (likely both sexes) would find someone who is generally pleasant, good-natured, and kind (the definition of 'nice') to be appealing as long as that someone is also rounded out with other qualities of character, especially in a long-term relationship like a marriage. The sexual tug and pull between a husband and wife should be there, but you also have to be able to get along on a day-to-day basis outside of that.

The word "dominating" is used a lot. But many people may find that word unappealing. It could be semantics again - dominating can mean to have great strength of character or a commanding influence (positive attraction quality), but it also has a meaning of being the most important or conspicuous person or thing (negative attraction quality).

Most people would admire someone that has a dominating presence, but would not admire someone that wants to dominate everyone. I think that is especially true in a sexual relationship of a marriage - I know I definitely want my husband to have that dominating presence as that is attractive and is part of his sexual pull for me, but I most definitely do not want to be dominated and lorded over and be "under his thumb" all the time as that would diminish his attraction in a big way.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Instead of using the word 'nice' to describe men who put up with women s*it, use the word that aptly describe them *weak*. Otherwise you might as well use the word a*sh*le instead of alpha to describe an emotionally strong man.


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## chasethislight (Jul 8, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> Good thoughts.
> 
> "Nice guy" - conflict avoidant.
> 
> ...


Amen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

The whole freakin' thing confuses the hell out of me. I am sure most of you would probably consider me a "nice guy" if you knew me but I don't fit neatly into any of these categories.

I am conflict avoidant for the most part. That one fits me. Though I am less so with my spouse than in work/social settings. I don't feel entitled to anything other than mutual respect as a human being.

I suppose you could say I am a martyr at times but that is some of the deal that comes with getting married and having children. Would I like to be out buying motorcycles and guns and going gambling or on ski trips. Sure. But I have mouths to feed and clothe and educate, etc. It is a life I chose and I love my wife and kids so I make sacrifices.

I don't consider myself a doormat but I am a pleaser. Yes, sometimes too much so. My wife knows I masterbate, knows I occasionaly admire an attractive woman. Do I do housework? Yes. Do I expect sex from it? No. Again, it's part of the deal.

Do I have a strong presence, dominant personality, assertiveness? No. But I do have strength of character and integrity.

I do have low self-esteem that can tend to play into my "nice guy" tendencies but I see that as a whole different animal. Maybe I am wrong..

Sorry for interjecting/rambling but sometimes I just don't get all of this...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You sound like "Nice Guy" is typed into your DNA.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

Hmm, not quite sure how to take that.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

frustr8dhubby said:


> The whole freakin' thing confuses the hell out of me. I am sure most of you would probably consider me a "nice guy" if you knew me but I don't fit neatly into any of these categories.


:iagree: As I've written before, relationships are way more complicated than I ever thought they were or need to be. Topics like this are interesting, and I know I have started them that are it's equal and probably will again, but isn't it amazing that this much discussion can go into a "nice guy" as it pertains to relationships? 

Applying something like this to real life is enough to drive an introverted, logical, B-type guy like me insane!! I feel like I need a manual to make a relationship work, but it would be so thick I couldn't carry it around!


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> The whole freakin' thing confuses the hell out of me. I am sure most of you would probably consider me a "nice guy" if you knew me but I don't fit neatly into any of these categories.


If you're so "nice", be nice to your wife and give her what she wants: a man. Go out and get a motorcycle. You don't have to go with every impulse, but some is not bad.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

southbound said:


> :iagree: As I've written before, relationships are way more complicated than I ever thought they were or need to be. Topics like this are interesting, and I know I have started them that are it's equal and probably will again, but isn't it amazing that this much discussion can go into a "nice guy" as it pertains to relationships?
> 
> Applying something like this to real life is enough to drive an introverted, logical, B-type guy like me insane!! I feel like I need a manual to make a relationship work, but it would be so thick I couldn't carry it around!


There's nothing wrong with being a geek. But be the alpha geek.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

frustr8dhubby said:


> The whole freakin' thing confuses the hell out of me. I am sure most of you would probably consider me a "nice guy" if you knew me but I don't fit neatly into any of these categories.


I think part of this confusion is all political correctness BS. Men these days are supposed to be good listeners, caring supportive of whatever their W/GF want to do. We're not supposed to be self centered. we are supposed to be caring and loving fathers. etc etc etc. Not that this is all bad. but . . . we are more hard wired to give advice than to sit quietly and listen, we have defn opinions about what our women should/shouldn't be doing, we really need to give our sons a high-five when he takes care of some ******* and tell our daughters to get the heck back in the house and put some real clothes on. "You're mother bought that for you???"

And I thought all this nice guy stuff and manning up advice on TAM was macho men reprimanding whimpy guys. But this morning . . . after some rocky times, and a lot blame being put on me (some deservedly) I told my wife if we're working on our marriage and rewriting the rules I live by, she's getting some new rules too. like, if she didn't like my criticisms (and nothing awful) - that's too bad. We can discuss it, but I'm not putting up with all sorts of crazy-ass defenses and justifications while I sit in the corner and shoulder all the blame. And if she wants to retaliate with head games or sex, I'll deal with it - and she'll know that I'm dealing with it becasue she'll have to deal with it as well. She went on to talk about sex and sometimes doing it just to please me - and . . . I didn't say a word - just thought as it should be sometimes. 

Then as I'm dressed and getting ready to leave for work, I hear, "I don't want to make you too late . . . but if you're interested in some lovin'" (Crunch time!) I turned and started to say, "well, if you want to . . ." lapsing into an old tired script. And then I say, "Sure - go upstairs. i'll be there in a minute" . . . btw she thanked me for being direct.

So - I'm not a total 'nice guy' but some traits are there. And I'm seeing better what to do diffrently. Thanks y'all.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

southbound said:


> :iagree: As I've written before, relationships are way more complicated than I ever thought they were or need to be. Topics like this are interesting, and I know I have started them that are it's equal and probably will again, but isn't it amazing that this much discussion can go into a "nice guy" as it pertains to relationships?
> 
> Applying something like this to real life is enough to drive an introverted, logical, B-type guy like me insane!! I feel like I need a manual to make a relationship work, but it would be so thick I couldn't carry it around!


The trick is to acknowledge they are NOT simple, but to manage them as if they are.

Conducting yourself in a relationship is a learned skill. Just like playing baseball, a musical instrument, or quantum physics. If you don't study, practice, or play, it will always look complex. Once you recognize and are accomplished at the common tasks of conducting one, it becomes like any other skill set.

Operating under the pretext of 'it will fall into place' or 'just work itself out' also will be successful ... if failure is your goal. 

Nothing worthwhile or desirable is easy. That includes having a healthy, loving relationship.


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## ManDup (Apr 22, 2011)

jayde said:


> And I thought all this nice guy stuff and manning up advice on TAM was macho men reprimanding whimpy guys. But this morning . . . after some rocky times, and a lot blame being put on me (some deservedly) I told my wife if we're working on our marriage and rewriting the rules I live by, she's getting some new rules too. like, if she didn't like my criticisms (and nothing awful) - that's too bad. We can discuss it, but I'm not putting up with all sorts of crazy-ass defenses and justifications while I sit in the corner and shoulder all the blame. And if she wants to retaliate with head games or sex, I'll deal with it - and she'll know that I'm dealing with it becasue she'll have to deal with it as well. She went on to talk about sex and sometimes doing it just to please me - and . . . I didn't say a word - just thought as it should be sometimes.


You might try verbalizing those things sometimes. I don't mean really harsh, but that doesn't sound too harsh.


jayde said:


> Then as I'm dressed and getting ready to leave for work, I hear, "I don't want to make you too late . . . but if you're interested in some lovin'" (Crunch time!) I turned and started to say, "well, if you want to . . ." lapsing into an old tired script. And then I say, "Sure - go upstairs. i'll be there in a minute" . . . btw she thanked me for being direct.
> 
> So - I'm not a total 'nice guy' but some traits are there. And I'm seeing better what to do diffrently. Thanks y'all.


Results. Funny thing is, she was probably already interested (she did initiate) and she maintained her interest BECAUSE you didn't waffle or act supplicating ("If you want to..."). If you had asked, then she probably honestly would not have been interested, having lost interest. It's sort of a nookie Heisenberg uncertainty principle that we have to live with.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Halien said:


> I think a Nice guy might be weak, but largely in the Machiavellian sense. Weak as in that he doesn't see that his wife will lose respect for him if he doesn't take a deliberate approach to keeping the passion in the marriage.
> 
> I had a close friend who was normally very tough, but thought that keeping his wife happy involved being pleasant, and treating her like a Queen by doing everything for her. He thought that these acts of service would be directly proportional to her desire for him. Once married, he no longer pursued her, but instead considered it an expectation that she would desire him. She lost respect and they ultimately divorced. Through the course of it, he just couldn't understand when his friends tried to tell him that he needs to make her feel lucky to have him, and the acts of service should only be a matter of his inner character.



So True !! My husband also treated me like a Queen, did everything I wanted, always pleasant and "expected" me to desire him as I was his wife. BUT he didn't go out of his way to pursue me, keep the passion. IF I compare the lengths I went too to create passion to what he has done, it tends to make me a little ANGRY. (the closest thing I have come in "resenting" him). 


I gotta say something here, MY husband is a hell of a nice guy, and his niceness IS written into his DNA, Temperment Tests show this quite convincingly. I still love him, and LOVE his type. BUT damn it, His not learning some skills, ways to deal with me --- did him zero favors in the past. 

I could blame myself alot (and I do) but he is JUST AS MUCH at fault for the mindlessly passive way he handled ME. I must admit I am not that easy to go up against - always enjoy a good fight though- he should have given me a couple! 

Just last night, we talked again, I tend to bring these things up now & then, I love digging into the dark recesses of the mind. I asked him HOW he REALLY FELT back then , what was going on in his mind , what it did to him- that we only connected about once a week.....

To my discredit, I am guilty of knowing he wanted more sex when we were trying to conceive, I was always worried it would lower his sperm count & make him wait for a time, a specific day, he didn't like this but he never once raised his voice to me , made an issue out of it. I mean how did I know he so angry, hurt. He still played Mr. Pleasant, all sacrificing for me, for the babies, what I wanted. 

I needed to be hit on the head, lightning striked, he needed to say " look woman, this ain't working for me!" in a firm voice, ya know. SOMETHING. Even an ultimatum. He had that right!!! 

Then later in years he got tired, he felt I was just not into him (always sleeping with the babies) & what does he do- absolutely NOTHING !!! I guess in a small way , he did MEM's "temperature" thing but it was very small -because I didn't even realize he was mad & trying to avoid sex with me! :scratchhead: His grouchiness showed mostly with the kids. 

I remember thinking "damn he doesn't seem to have much of a sex drive " and I would take care of myself some nights feeling he might not want bothered. (he never knew)

He never told me this before last night , but HE WANTED ME to FEEL REJECTED so I would know how it felt - and this is what is so crazy, I didn't even know he was doing this!! Cause when I came on to him, he always gave in -He said he let me pester him a few times, I do recall saying "Come on honey, I need you " a couple of times, after all -deep down -he was DYING for it anyway. (talk about conflict with your hormones & mental state!)

So his attempts to hurt me -didn't even hurt me! He was starting to get mad at me last night for laughing at this a little bit . He was Too Pleasant, TOO nice, he was hiding. And all I personally got out of this was - well he is not so much into me !! So I just went about my business, into my kids! 

Good thing I didn't meet up with some Casanova who was, or it could have been the end of us I suppose -(like Haliens example above). 

Seriously, it is no wonder my sex drive wasn't "awakened' earlier. 

At least Frustr8edHUbby has talked to his wife -She KNOWS how he feels, she KNOWS he wants her every day & night --so you beat my husband there by a long shot! We had such a pathetic lack of communication over this. :banghead: He obvioulsy had more resentment than I realized , but I needed to hear it !!! 

I layed there listening to him last night, these things make me VERY emotional, tears are flowing, I wouldn't have wanted to hurt him like that -but then it angers me he didn't play more of a role to pursue, to arouse, to go after me & MAKE me want him. 

Water under the bridge now. For whatever it is worth, that is our story, I doubt many R as passive as my husband though!

If he would have only YELLED at me, caused a FIGHT, sat me down , I Had a right to know. 

Being too nice is Bull Sh**. It wasted alot of our best years. 

We are making up for lost time of coarse. I wish I had a time machine to go back so we could re-live those precious years. I envy the young. 

Men , be who you are, say what you WANT ! Don't be so self-less if you are building resentment. And like Deejo says, learn to master these things, study them, practice , PLAY, it is a learned skill many times, educate yourselves, we are complex and I agree - things just don't "fall into place" . 

My husband hit the jackpot when I woke up, it has to start with the HIGHER DRIVE spouse, after all they are the ones FEELING it. Or nothing will change.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

AFEH said:


> Ha! I guess SA you can have real empathy with the guys who say how much they wish their wives would initiate.


Amazing empathy, understatement of the year. I can get a little rough on women who feel this is unnecessary. It irritates my senses, we ALL need that, and to feel that from our spouses.


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I gotta say something here, MY husband is a hell of a nice guy, and his niceness IS written into his DNA, Temperment Tests show this quite convincingly. I still love him, and LOVE his type. BUT damn it, His not learning some skills, ways to deal with me --- did him zero favors in the past.
> 
> I could blame myself alot (and I do) but he is JUST AS MUCH at fault for the mindlessly passive way he handled ME. I must admit I am not that easy to go up against - always enjoy a good fight though- he should have given me a couple!
> 
> ...


I hear all of this......with a very big BUT.

I've gone through years of trying to do and say what I want. The main problem, the women I have been in relationships with do not argue or discuss logically.

I can get into a fight, yell scream and argue. They have completely shut down......yet they "wanted" a fight?

I can try to discuss in a methodical, logical way. Their brains switch to an emotional level and the discussion goes out the window.

If I've wanted something, I will take it. I will tell you you're being irrational crazy *****y, whatever but a lot of women simply will not hear it. I remember being both emotional and distant at various times to nil result......

Fast forward to the end of a couple of relationships, ultimatum time and suddenly they respond, too little too late normally.

My 2 cents, a lot of women I've known don't even know what going on in their head or what they want and yet expect others to read their minds. It seems only the fear of losing everything is enough to spur some women into action.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Six said:


> I had a thought. Haven't thought it through completely but this seemed like a good place to hear some thoughts.
> 
> The term "nice guy" I just realized may inadvertently have a subtext (overt or latent) of entitlement.
> 
> ...


Was thinking about the title of this thread just now and remembered a thought I was having about this not long ago.

I consider(ed) myself the typical "nice guy" in other words way too patient and very passive-aggressive. And realized I was probably being completely misunderstood when I choose to do something for another person.

When someone asks me "would you mind doing such and such" and I say "sure no problem" or "no I don't mind" its not that I enjoy the task they have assigned me, I get no satisfaction from the lousy thing I've agreed to do for you... I do it because 1) the golden rule, if I asked for help I wouldn't want to be turned down or 2) I do it because I appreciate that person and want them to appreciate me.

I'm beginning to wonder if not everybody else in the world would do exactly the same thing? (answer is obvious, I'm learning, an emphatic "NO"). So now us nice guys have to undo a lifetime of learning about showing respect and be selfless in order to protect ourselves from being exploited and taken advantage of by the majority of selfish people who easily ignore the fact they are treating others disadvantageously.

So being a "nice guy" doesn't mean we think we are entitled to a certain outcome, we just don't understand that someone would not appreciate our altrusitic approach to social relaitonships (altruistic not in the sense that we enjoy doing work, but feel a moral compulsion to help others). Its our ingrained servitude, and the fact that we need to be appreciated too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Hubby01 said:


> I hear all of this......with a very big BUT.
> 
> I've gone through years of trying to do and say what I want. The main problem, the women I have been in relationships with do not argue or discuss logically.
> 
> ...


I agree with you , A TON OF WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS, probably the majority. I have a couple friends like this, it is one of my biggest complaints about them (you need to careful of every word, they may be offended, pull away, not talk to you for weeks). I am NOT this type of women, oh my no! I am NOT a Shut DOWNER, never was, never will be. I have never given a "silent Treatment" in my life. I am not even capable of it. I LOVE a good argument, and logic, I live for such things. Debate is one of my favorite hobbies - because I WANT to sharpen my logic! 

And about these women not knowing what they want, I have never been this way either, ALWAYS KNEW exactly what I wanted, could spell it out at any time in my life. *That doesn't mean I seen the whole picture though! I NEEDED him to challenge me here-since I was foolish & wasn't getting it *, be emotional before me *I am EQUALLY as sensitve as challenging*. He failed me there, he should have NOT neglected HIS FEELINGS before ME, including his anger, His wants, His needs, His desires. Or better yet, he should have just taken me, wresteled me to the ground, no words necessary and SHOWED me what he wanted. 


I will simply never know HOW I might have responded at such attempts, I can only speculate, but one thing I do know is - I would have never shut down. It would have made me THINK -re-evaluate. I believe my sensitivity would have CARED about him, after all he treated me like Gold from day one. I am not a monster. 

See every one of us speaks out of our own experiences, and when you read mine, you think to yourself -she is probably like all the rest , cause this IS all you know. My husband is not like all the rest (obviously), neither am I. We are extreme opposites in these things. I have always been a confronter. You would think he would be a Shut Downer, and I guess he tried to be with the sex, didn't he, slipping it in there under my nose ! I just wasn't getting it , too busy with the kids (we had 5 in 9 yrs in our 30's)

I needed to be alerted & told what for. When I do catch on to things (I was very very slow here obviously), I won't let anyone , friend, husband , go that gracefully into resentment, NO, we'll be talking about it, and very deeply. Exploring each others feelings is paramount to me, coming to a full understanding with both of us being satisfied. Anything less would not be acceptable to me.  I would feel ashamed , guilty and it would bother me internally. 

I couldn't be married to an illogical silent treatment shut downer. My husband has never been illogical, he knows I despise the silent treatment & he NEVER has been a grudge holder -but it shouldn't always be ON ME to do the confronting -especially when he was the one hurting & I was off somewhere in the clouds. 

Yes, all women are different, and very complex. What works for one is not always what will work for another. 

My husband is MUCH more vulnerable with me NOW -that we have come to this place. This I am very thankful for, but again, we missed many years because he was infact , too much of the classic "Mr Nice Guy". (Have the book, love it , agree with it)


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with you , A TON OF WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS, probably the majority. I have a couple friends like this, it is one of my biggest complaints about them (you need to careful of every word, they may be offended, pull away, not talk to you for weeks). I am NOT this type of women, oh my no! I am NOT a Shut DOWNER, never was, never will be. I have never given a "silent Treatment" in my life. I am not even capable of it. I LOVE a good argument, and logic, I live for such things. Debate is one of my favorite hobbies - because I WANT to sharpen my logic!
> 
> And about these women not knowing what they want, I have never been this way either, ALWAYS KNEW exactly what I wanted, could spell it out at any time in my life. *That doesn't mean I seen the whole picture though! I NEEDED him to challenge me here-since I was foolish & wasn't getting it *, be emotional before me *I am EQUALLY as sensitve as challenging*. He failed me there, he should have NOT neglected HIS FEELINGS before ME, including his anger, His wants, His needs, His desires. Or better yet, he should have just taken me, wresteled me to the ground, no words necessary and SHOWED me what he wanted.
> 
> ...


SA ~

It's inspiring that you were strong enough and passionate enough to take the lead with your 'nice' guy. I think that a lot of women just aren't, and when you have neither partner stepping up, then the relationship can get in to problems.

I hope that your story may inspire any like-minded women with similar husbands to try and follow your lead, even though it's often counseled on these boards that the 'nice' guy should step up and start leading. It's obvious from your story that it doesn't always have to be that way.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Enchantment said:


> SA ~
> 
> It's inspiring that you were strong enough and passionate enough to take the lead with your 'nice' guy. I think that a lot of women just aren't, and when you have neither partner stepping up, then the relationship can get in to problems.
> 
> I hope that your story may inspire any like-minded women with similar husbands to try and follow your lead, even though it's often counseled on these boards that the 'nice' guy should step up and start leading. It's obvious from your story that it doesn't always have to be that way.


Nice Enchantmenet, very nice.  

I have spent MORE time at the beginning of landing on this wonderful forum *TEMPTED* to Judge my husband because of his LACK in certain areas. So much Alpha Dominate Aggressive talk of what a REAL man is made of, I could have easily walked down a path of feeling he was INFERIOR somehow. 

For a time, I even felt like I must be less of a catch just cause I married a Nice Guy!! After all they are the last in line, getting the dud dates the Alphas discarded. But I wouldn't allow myself to go there, I knew in my heart this was not true of us, him being inferior or me, for that matter. 

I took it upon myself to studying these things more, I looked into HIS temperment (my husbands temperment is only 8% of all men), the role of testosterone (he is a lower test man). Lots of things make a man the way he IS. It is as COMPLEX as women are !! 


Opposites have always attracted & even made good solid marraiges - think of the couples you personally know, I know I have seen more than a handful of Nice tempered Introverted Men marrying these biosterous fiesty wives --as other men would probably want rid of us (just kidding- but maybe not, even the "NO More Mr Nice Guy Book" says these men often marry "projects". We laughed when we read that :rofl: I will admit I was a bit of a "project" in my youth, but I came around, he helped me. 

So there ARE other couples like us out there, and yeah, it is VERY VERY workable. 

Women need to step up too & understand their men, are they being chameleons, a teflon man, has their Alpha been buried, passive aggressiveness taken over, or maybe they are just more like my husband , the scale is tipped more Beta. And My scale is tipped more Alpha . We are what we are, I am not going to change him any more than he can change me. 

Sometimes I wonder what my purpose is hanging around on this forum all the time, you dear Enchantment, just made me feel like I might have one!


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## MisguidedMiscreant (Dec 28, 2010)

I think this is just another example of how twisted our society has become in the west. Further indication that being a kind person, especially for a male is a stigma. In reality, no matter what a man does today, it's wrong. 

Feminism has spent the last five decades hammering men down with sensitivity training and government legislation so much that most of us have had to apologize for our penises being the root of all of society's ills when the opposite is true and you can see it today. Men are taught not to compete with anyone while women openly compete with us in all facets including relationships then women complain that men aren't men any more. In all actuality, the different types of men are legion and, under optimal circumstances, run the gamut from over aggressive to over emotional. None of these are wrong, they are just different from each other. So, in essence, the phrase "men aren't men" is incorrect. 

Back to what society has done, a man has been taught that being what people call an "alpha male" is wrong so they become nice manginas but you have men that recognize that it's the alpha male that gets women and they go that route. Really, these men are still not what an alpha male would be because he's mainly behaving in a way that women find pleasing by acting line a thug or bad boy. If he were truly a man going his own way and not a so called alpha male, he wouldn't care what women thought of him and only what he thought of himself. 

On the subject of "nice guys," these are the men that have accepted what society has told them at face value and live their lives accordingly always apologizing for their masculinity. The unfortunate truth of their existence is that women don't want these men since the feminine, or at least as much of it's that's left in western culture, invariably desires the masculine, it's in our DNA. So these men become nothing more than providers for single mothers and the various used up harlots that come their way after giving up their prime years to the bad boy who, as I said earlier, is no bad boy but just picked up on what's really happening a little bit. 

I consider myself a kind man, not an alpha or beta male but a kind man. I'm also a man going his own way and I choose to be kind to people because I'd think less of myself if I didn't. No man should let anyone tell them what they want to do, do it for yourself because we're all being used and abused by society despite what they want you to think and going your own way is the only antidote.


Also, at the risk of contradicting myself, all men should stop using the terms alpha and beta male. It dehumanizes us, we are men and not locked in a cage at a zoo or being studied on the Discovery Channel or Animal Planet.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Nice Enchantmenet, very nice.  Opposites have always attracted & even made good solid marraiges - think of the couples you personally know, I know I have seen more than a handful of Nice tempered Introverted Men marrying these biosterous fiesty wives --as other men would probably want rid of us (just kidding- but maybe not, even the "NO More Mr Nice Guy Book" says these men often marry "projects". We laughed when we read that :rofl: I will admit I was a bit of a "project" in my youth, but I came around, he helped me.
> 
> So there ARE other couples like us out there, and yeah, it is VERY VERY workable.


How do opposites keep from driving each other crazy? I'm a laid back guy, and if I was married to a woman who was on the go and bouncing off the wall all the time, it would be tough for me. The only way i could handle it was if she just did her thing and didn't care if I participated, but if she tried to drag me into all her activities and tried to pep me up, I'd be screaming, "Calgon, take me away!" So, even if opposites attract, there apparently has to be a built in tolerance that some people have. It's like the multi-power shift on a tractor: some have it and some don't.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

southbound said:


> How do opposites keep from driving each other crazy?


I'm married to a classic laid back "nice guy". It's taken me years to learn to appreciate that about him. I didn't drag him into activities but I'm sure on many occasions he wished I would just sit down and shut up already. And did I ever once consider his needs? Sadly no. I was completely clueless. Now this isn't totally on me because the biggest problem in our marriage was he became passive aggressive and didn't communicate with me. He let the resentment build and I had no idea. 

So how do you keep from driving each other crazy? You communicate. Often. And that means being aware of your own feelings. If something bothers you deal with it right then don't wait years before speaking up. We wasted so many years with him sufferering in silence and I truly had no idea. I wish he would have told me how he felt sooner.

But like SA said that's water under the bridge now. Even now my husband isn't likely to speak up I have to watch him for signs of something bothering him. He's not hard to figure out now. 

He's a nice guy and he IS entitled to the best I have to offer. Oh how I wish more women knew this. I've said it over and over but nice guys are gems. It takes a special woman to appreciate them. And sadly most just take them for granted like I did for years. Oh if I could go back knowing what I know now....


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

If you're going to be a judgmental beotch then that's what you're going to be. It's not so much what you DO as it is what you ARE. So if you descend like a vulture on your Nice Guy and beat the living crap out of him every day, ok, enjoy that. Trust me, I've seen that happen and then she leaves for a real rough and tough hard-ass man and guess what, she's a judgmental beotch about him too. 

She should just admit that what she wants is not a man, a lover, a husband or a mate. She wants an employee, a servant, a robot, someone to vent and dump on 24/7/365. And being a judgmental beotch was really the only goal she had in mind all along. _THAT _was the end game, not marriage. Marriage was only a means to that end.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

southbound said:


> How do opposites keep from driving each other crazy? I'm a laid back guy, and if I was married to a woman who was on the go and bouncing off the wall all the time, it would be tough for me. The only way i could handle it was if she just did her thing and didn't care if I participated, but if she tried to drag me into all her activities and tried to pep me up, I'd be screaming, "Calgon, take me away!" So, even if opposites attract, there apparently has to be a built in tolerance that some people have. It's like the multi-power shift on a tractor: some have it and some don't.


 No No No, Southbound you are confusing *TEMPERMENTS* with *LOVE LANGUAGES*. Let me explain...

Example.... My husband is Mr. Laid back , calmness personified, patience of Job, drives the speed limit, plays the radio low in the car, enjoys the simple life, easy to please so long as he is with his family, rarely asserts himself, never one to brag, If someone puts him down, it steals his thunder -he may retreat into a shell, He is not a big conversationist, literally NEEDS his beauty sleep or he is dragging, could have vanilla sex till he hits dust & never gets bored, pretty near always happy. 

Enter me ....Tend to be a Lead foot, LOVE Blasting my radio to a good song, confrontational if I see a need, I thrive on communication, even debate, enjoy fighting sometimes so we can have hot make up sex, assertive of my needs/wants , if someoone puts me down, it may initially hurt but I never retreat -I see a challenge ! I am the energizer bunny, Vanilla sex is good too, but I like to push the envelope. I am not as easy to please as him , and I can even be downright vain at times,If I don't watch myself. 

You are probably thinking, how in the world can that work! 


Here is what saves us -- Our LOVE LANGUAGES are totally in sinc with each other, even in the same order. And it is amazing. We are also both HOME BUDDIES, we agree on $$, our dreams, how to raise the kids, beliefs, country living & just what we want out of life. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html


Just cause a woman is a bit LIVELY / peppy / boisterous & not so laid back in temperment by no means she is a Partier or always on the go. I am accually more old fashined than many on this forum by a long shot -except a few out of the box things we enjoy together. I've never even been drunk! I don't run all over town to functions either, not something I enjoy, but I do hold down the fort in my own home & when I want to get something done, I will overturn every stone to make it happen.

I am more the planner, the organizer, he is a steadfast worker with much patience to get the job done precisely, even if I have to push a little to get him "started", then I am right there with him to finish it. 

I still have a LIVELY personality , brain is always engaged somehow, not necessarily the " legs on the go". If that makes any sense, the Peppiest thing I enjoy in life is a good ROCK concert maybe a few times a year and he always goes with me, He'd be happy going metal deteching or something. And I will do his thing with him - all about give & take, I will just bring a book with me, and he may bring ear plugs to the concert (just kidding) 

We compliment each other in SO MANY WAYS. When I get flustered over something, anything, he comes in with his dry sense of humor to bring a smile back to my face. He enjoys making fun of me, but I don't get bent out of shape because I see the humor in it, the kids have caught on & love to do this too. 

Where he is so laid back to assert his own needs, I am (now) clued in to making sure I PULL these things out of him, so our communcation has soared. 

Where he does not say much by nature, I again can open him up quite well with my ever curious personality, engaging questions. 

In the car I use my ipod to not blast him, sometimes I annoy him if I feel he is driving too slow, so I try to shut my mouth , he cracks jokes about how quickly we would be somewhere If I was driving. Our kids love to see us banter back & forth. It can be alot of FUN being different. 

His strenghts are MY weaknesses & MY strenghts are HIS weaknesses, I admire him for what I suck at and he admires me for what he lacks. Together we make a fine TEAM -that is very strong. 

Our snow plow broke over the winter, BIg storm, I was helping him do our LOONNGGG driveway shoveling, we finally meet in the middle, this is like after an hour & a half shoveling , I felt I was doing a darn good job, proud of myself and he says to me "look at that" pointing to my shoveling job ..."you didn't get it good enough". I thought to myself , I have been out here all this time helping his butt, what nerve he has saying this to me !! but I don't take these things personal & retreat -remember I like a challenge & I am feisty -so I picked up my shovel in the air & hauled back at him ...'"I'm gonna take this shovel & shove it up your a**" going towards him - he knows I wasn't really mad. And he says back to me ....."come on give it to me baby - you are turning me on". Loved that!  We do alot of crazy bantering like that . 


So there, just a silly example of many of how 2 opposities of such extremes can accually "work" and work well.


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## Hubby01 (Jul 5, 2011)

SA, I appreciate you really understand whats inside you and how this world works.

I fit pretty well into the "laid back" lifestyle, bur certainly know how to change gears as needed. I know I don't go as far as being the definition of a "nice guy" (I've read the book a dozen times too) but I choose to put the well being of family, my relationship and our secure future on an equal footing with my individual happiness. I know that they are intertwined.

I have the opportunity to have me time, but enjoy time with our baby more, I could go out drinking with the boys, but would rather share an intimate dinner with my wife. I'm not nice for not wanting to be a "man's man" I just enjoy slightly different things. I've played 2 sports professionally and represented my country a number of times, I've had my "man's man" period. My priorities have shifted.

SA, you sound a lot like my wife. She always seems to be in a hurry and never has time to do anything, but will constantly add things to her schedule. Where she's a little different, She seems to thrive on the exhaustion of "look what I've achieved!". The opportunity of doing a job and being seen to do a job hold much more appeal than her own happiness. By her own admission, she simply doesn't have time for our relationship or anything that goes close to sex, it's just not important enough to get into the top 100 jobs of the day. She will make herself physically ill in order to accomplish something.

Where was I going with this? Do I feel entitled to something for the efforts I put in, I did. Now however, the tide has turned, if she wants to go to bed at 8.30 completely exhausted, she can have at it, I'll sleep on the couch or in the spare room, if she wants to waste an entire day running in small circles to get nothing achieved, I will happily play with the baby and have a great day.

I think there is a difference between being a good provider, husband, father etc etc and commanding some respect and being a "nice guy" and expecting something in return though.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am not sure I understand your post Hubby01. Of coarse you should be getting this Respect. BUt you are not, aren't you tired of living like this? Men want respect over love -from their wives. Amazon.com: Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs (9781591451877): Emerson Eggerichs: Books

I will have to correct you though, I don't sound anything like your wife, I am not always in a hurry at all (you must think this because I said talked about my "lead foot" - I just mean I generally go over the speed limit a little- my husband drives the speed limit ).

I always make time for what is important, I am not a "Yes" person afraid to say "NO" to friends ,etc, I only commit if I want to take something on. I am not always adding things to my schedule either (I love staying home -but with 6 kids, many things do come up)

Yes, you are right, I am different than her in not caring to "acheive" before the world but just want my own happiness. Which are some pretty simple things (give me some country land, my man, my kids , some good tunes , food & shelter & the stars above my head, and I think that would keep me smiling)

*Why do you think your wife lives like this *? She is going to BURN OUT , like she is filling her day ramptant to AVOID any time to think, any time to feel. 

I am glad your tide has turned, but still that is not a happy situation for you. Sorry to hear.


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