# Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone



## BeachGuy

I'd like to talk to anyone who made this decision. Either reply here or PM me please. Thanks.


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## wilson

I'm currently in this situation. I figure I can postpone my happiness for a while to ensure the kids grow up with both parents in a good home. Other than no sex, the marriage is fine and we get along.


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## SadSamIAm

wilson said:


> I'm currently in this situation. I figure I can postpone my happiness for a while to ensure the kids grow up with both parents in a good home. Other than no sex, the marriage is fine and we get along.


I really don't understand this. 

My marriage has very little sex and that is the reason the marriage isn't fine and why we don't get along.

Originally I was staying for the kids. Now that my oldest is 17, I could leave, but I haven't.


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## Lon

I was never faced with that situation, though in a way I was living it - I was not planning on ever leaving the marriage, regardless of if my kid was grown up or not, I was gonna stick it out until my vows expired, even though I knew my ex had lost all faith in me.

All I have to say about your situation, is if that is how you feel, have you told your partner where you stand? If not, can you give one valid reason for your dishonesty?


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## wilson

SadSamIAm said:


> I really don't understand this.
> 
> My marriage has very little sex and that is the reason the marriage isn't fine and why we don't get along.


I think a lot depends on why you don't have sex and what sex means to you. My wife has LD and had tried many things to fix it. She's better than most. But the fact is that she just doesn't desire it. If I make a big effort I can get her in the mood, but that's not satisfying. I end up feeling worse because I feel like I manipulated her into having sex and she didn't do it because she's attracted to me. 

So I have learned to accept that is the way she is. She's still a good person and a good parent, but there's just not the sex drive. If instead I felt she was doing this to manipulate me, I would leave. If we didn't have kids I would leave. But in the end, you have to weigh your desire for happiness against the pain it would cause the kids. 

I think divorce will most negatively impact kids between the ages of around 8-17. Before that they are still young and resilient. After that they are starting to get their own life. But divorce in those middle years can deeply affect kids. Not always, but you never know. So unless the home life is pretty bad, I think it's worth it to stay together for the sanity of the kids if they are in those middle ages.


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## SadSamIAm

wilson said:


> I think a lot depends on why you don't have sex and what sex means to you. My wife has LD and had tried many things to fix it. She's better than most. But the fact is that she just doesn't desire it. If I make a big effort I can get her in the mood, but that's not satisfying. I end up feeling worse because I feel like I manipulated her into having sex and she didn't do it because she's attracted to me.
> 
> So I have learned to accept that is the way she is. She's still a good person and a good parent, but there's just not the sex drive. If instead I felt she was doing this to manipulate me, I would leave. If we didn't have kids I would leave. But in the end, you have to weigh your desire for happiness against the pain it would cause the kids.


Kudos to you for handling it so well.

Recently read "The Sex-Starved Marriage: A Couple's Guide to Boosting Their Marital Libido". The first chapter pretty accurately describes my marriage.

I am approaching 50 and starting to understand what a midlife crisis is. We only live once and I don't want the rest of my life spent feeling angry, alone and not desired.


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## tacoma

Lon said:


> All I have to say about your situation, is if that is how you feel, have you told your partner where you stand? If not, can you give one valid reason for your dishonesty?


Money
Kids

There are 2.

You don't have to agree with them for them to be valid.


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## Horizon

wilson said:


> I think a lot depends on why you don't have sex and what sex means to you. My wife has LD and had tried many things to fix it. She's better than most. But the fact is that she just doesn't desire it. If I make a big effort I can get her in the mood, but that's not satisfying. I end up feeling worse because I feel like I manipulated her into having sex and she didn't do it because she's attracted to me.
> 
> So I have learned to accept that is the way she is. She's still a good person and a good parent, but there's just not the sex drive. If instead I felt she was doing this to manipulate me, I would leave. If we didn't have kids I would leave. But in the end, you have to weigh your desire for happiness against the pain it would cause the kids.
> 
> I think divorce will most negatively impact kids between the ages of around 8-17. Before that they are still young and resilient. After that they are starting to get their own life. But divorce in those middle years can deeply affect kids. Not always, but you never know. So unless the home life is pretty bad, I think it's worth it to stay together for the sanity of the kids if they are in those middle ages.


Similar, I never thought of her as LD and she does drink but LD is the end result. However this was all muddied by the fact that she had an affair. The affair dialogue revealed that to the contrary there was a sexual being. Not necessarily HD but definitely a big spark if I can put it that way. It proved that she could be "inspired" - so to speak. Just not with me. Being drip fed sex is enough on it's own to raise the question about what things will be like down the line. I'll never be Channing Tatum or the other magic Mike types she secretly idealises (the middle aged woman's advantage - anyone is interested to have there with them if they are half way decent). So b/c the children are young I will see it through to the point where I have means to see her off.


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## Racer

It’s still part of my reasoning for staying. It’s not so much a written in stone pact as it is a tool to help forgive myself for staying. If that makes any sense.

I have a whole series of excuses for staying; They also evolve as the R evolves. I kinda ripped a page out of the wayward book to justify the unjustifiable.


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## Cupcake37

I am a woman so note sure if I am allowed to be posting here? I too am in this situation and am interested in reading the replied here. Deeply unhappy and alone in my marriage but with two young children not sure when to leave? Is there ever a good time? Too young and I feel as if I am going to scar them for life and it's me being selfish. Or are they young enough to get over it and move on?


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## manticore

totally against it, I am a kid of a family who stay together for the sake of the kids, if you read my thread you will understand my negative view of that decission, but I guess the circunstances in every case have to be taken in consideration


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## Enginerd

Lon said:


> I was never faced with that situation, though in a way I was living it - I was not planning on ever leaving the marriage, regardless of if my kid was grown up or not, I was gonna stick it out until my vows expired, even though I knew my ex had lost all faith in me.
> 
> All I have to say about your situation, is if that is how you feel, have you told your partner where you stand? If not, can you give one valid reason for your dishonesty?



I had to reply to this pointed question. You stick around to make sure your children are well cared for and are kept on a path to happiness and success. The major caveat is that there's no fighting or violence in the household. There are spouses that are in denial or incapable of change no matter how honest you are with them. Confronting them with the truth again and again only serves to upset your household and makes you look like the bad guy. At some point you realize that you made a mistake in the marriage, but the children shouldn't pay for it.

In my case our lives would be financially devistated if we split. This would dramatically change my childrens lifestyle and reduce their chances for college since we couldn't afford it. I consider that more important then my personal hapiness and telling the occasional lie to my spouse regarding my feelings is a small price to pay for my children. I think the bigger lie is to leave and claim the children will be better off.


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## BeachGuy

There is zero chance of reconciliation in my marriage. If I stay, I would have to learn how to live with the lonlieness and anger of being married to this woman. There is no arguing. We don't speak to each other. The ONLY two reasons I would consider staying is because I want to live with my children (not "for" my children) and money.

I was curious how those that made the decision to stay learned to live with the negative aspects. I filed for divorce and it's in process and I'm 95% certain I'll go through with it. But she doesn't want it and I could pull the plug on it anytime and stay.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Enginerd said:


> I had to reply to this pointed question. You stick around to make sure your children are well cared for and are kept on a path to happiness and success. The major caveat is that there's no fighting or violence in the household. There are spouses that are in denial or incapable of change no matter how honest you are with them. Confronting them with the truth again and again only serves to upset your household and makes you look like the bad guy. At some point you realize that you made a mistake in the marriage, but the children shouldn't pay for it.
> 
> In my case our lives would be financially devistated if we split. This would dramatically change my childrens lifestyle and reduce their chances for college since we couldn't afford it. I consider that more important then my personal hapiness and telling the occasional lie to my spouse regarding my feelings is a small price to pay for my children. I think the bigger lie is to leave and claim the children will be better off.


Ok, stick around, stick it out even. But if you have a valid case, like you say you can make about kids and money, then present your case to your partner. Maybe she feels the same way but is also deceiving you for the same reasons, meanwhile you are both suffering in misery and teaching your kids all about what a marriage is supposed to be. looking back in your old age you will have a lifetime of regret. Unless of course you identity and pursue what it is you want from life.


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## Enginerd

Lon said:


> Ok, stick around, stick it out even. But if you have a valid case, like you say you can make about kids and money, then present your case to your partner. Maybe she feels the same way but is also deceiving you for the same reasons, meanwhile you are both suffering in misery and teaching your kids all about what a marriage is supposed to be. looking back in your old age you will have a lifetime of regret. Unless of course you identity and pursue what it is you want from life.



You make some valid points but I think your projecting a bit. Certainly my wife thinks she's deceiving me about her true feelings, but I'm realistic. She likes the stability and protection I provide, but she's not in love with me. I've also thought about the regret aspect and came to the conclusion I would regret leaving my boys more than the regret from staying in an unsatisfying marriage. I will never marry again so in reality I'm just missing out on some strange. I can live with that. I no longer think marriage is a absolute requirement and have told my boys as much. What they have learned from me is that I take responsibility for my choices and try to put my family first. As far as setting an example of what a good marriage is I don't think thats the same for any two people. Its a totally subjective concept that largely depends on what culture or religion your beliefs are based in. In many countries its normal for a man to have a concubine which is a custom that addresses this issue directly. I would never do that but my point is that your argument is a bit thin on a world wide scale. My household is peacful and supporting. My boys are comfortable, happy and stay out of trouble. They have a sense that its my priority to support them and keep things together. If I found out I was going to die in a few weeks I would still be proud of that.


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## Lon

Enginerd said:


> You make some valid points but I think your projecting a bit. Certainly my wife thinks she's deceiving me about her true feelings, but I'm realistic. She likes the stability and protection I provide, but she's not in love with me. I've also thought about the regret aspect and came to the conclusion I would regret leaving my boys more than the regret from staying in an unsatisfying marriage. I will never marry again so in reality I'm just missing out on some strange. I can live with that. I no longer think marriage is a absolute requirement and have told my boys as much. What they have learned from me is that I take responsibility for my choices and try to put my family first. As far as setting an example of what a good marriage is I don't think thats the same for any two people. Its a totally subjective concept that largely depends on what culture or religion your beliefs are based in. In many countries its normal for a man to have a concubine which is a custom that addresses this issue directly. I would never do that but my point is that your argument is a bit thin on a world wide scale. My household is peacful and supporting. My boys are comfortable, happy and stay out of trouble. They have a sense that its my priority to support them and keep things together. If I found out I was going to die in a few weeks I would still be proud of that.


Why do you presume it is one or another? Nobody is suggesting to leave your children. I’m just suggesting making an arrangement with your equal partner to co-parent in a way that works best for both of you. Be it divorce, MC, in-house separation, open marriage, mutually accepted sexless marriage, whatever.

If you believe marriage isn’t a requirement and go so far as to teach your boys that, why are you demonstrating that it is ok to be hyprocritical? Not telling her that you would leave her if you weren’t obligated to your kids is certainly not love, and certainly nothing a healthy marriage can ever be built upon. So what you are promoting to your kids is an unhealthy relationship, you are leading by example and telling them “don’t do it like I did” is not a lesson they can heed, because you know precisely that they will do it like you did.

How are you demonstrating responsibility and putting family first when you are deceiving the primary relationship partner in it? I don’t care about whatever your culture says, if your relationship needs are not being met then staying in it is eating away at your soul, you have no faith left in your marriage (ie you are unfaithful).

I honestly don’t believe that neither of you have zero relationship needs, otherwise you would be 100% content with your marriage, and you wouldn’t even have mentioned the word “concubine”. To me your words seem a lot like the kind of groundwork towards a situation where you can eventually justify sexual infidelity in your own mind. You say you wouldn’t do that, but ask yourself if a beautiful woman whom you trusted to be discrete and whom came onto you approached you for a NSA, casual affair in a way you knew you wouldn’t get caught and were 100% confident it wouldn’t disrupt the peace and strong relationship with your sons, would you even consider it?

If your W was the one having an affair to meet her own sexual needs (because you already admit that she feels no love, which is essentially sexual attraction, for you) would you accept that? Would you be happy to be cuckholded? Why not, and what if she merely told you that she wanted to have an affair but was too uncertain to actually follow through with it?

Does this still fit within your own personal definition of a “good marriage”? Separating your children from your marriage, is the relationship with your wife one you truly are proud of?


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## GTdad

Lon said:


> If your W was the one having an affair to meet her own sexual needs (because you already admit that she feels no love, which is essentially sexual attraction, for you) would you accept that? Would you be happy to be cuckholded? Why not, and what if she merely told you that she wanted to have an affair but was too uncertain to actually follow through with it?
> 
> Does this still fit within your own personal definition of a “good marriage”? Separating your children from your marriage, is the relationship with your wife one you truly are proud of?


I'd like to field that one, since I identify so closely with what Enginerd has written.

The answer is "no". The fact is that while my marriage is sorely lacking, and I'm not happy with it, neither am I miserable. To reduce it to a cost-benefit analysis, the benefits of staying married still outweigh the negatives in my opinion.

Adultery, or even the hint of adultery, would change the equation drastically. I can't see myself even bothering to try to make the marriage work after that.

But until that happens, or something even nearly as horrific, here I am. Because that's my choice.


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## Lon

So unfaithfulness, dishonesty, deception and breached trust is ok but extra-marital sex is not.

Why, what changes at that point that would make a dysfunctional marriage worth keeping suddenly not worth keeping?

nothing is lost that wasn't already lost, even your dignity, but you just don't come to realize it until one or the other gets caught whilst executing an act of bad faith towards the marriage.

Enginerd, gt dad, do you realize that your W's, if they were actually vested in the relationship, would feel the sting of betrayal just as painfully as a PA if they knew what you were thinking?


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## GTdad

If my wife was actually vested in the relationship, I wouldn't be here.


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## wilson

Lon said:


> Why do you presume it is one or another? Nobody is suggesting to leave your children. I’m just suggesting making an arrangement with your equal partner to co-parent in a way that works best for both of you. Be it divorce, MC, in-house separation, open marriage, mutually accepted sexless marriage, whatever.


The problem is that it is a very emotionally charged situation. The spouse and children may be happy in the current environment. To bring up issues like divorce, open-marriage, etc will have a very big effect--most likely negative. I have strongly hinted that I don't think we'll be together forever, but it doesn't seem to cause any significant changes.

I'm reluctant to come out and say I want a divorce in X years because:

1. After X years, I may change my mind. Maybe this is just a temporary situation or mid-life crisis. No need to make an ultimatum if it may never come to be.

2. Making such a statement will likely cause a lot of irrational behavior. The current situation would greatly change for the worse and it would be unlikely that we would last X years.

I think it would be deceptive to tell her we'll be together if that's not my current feelings. And I also think it would be deceptive to not express my feelings and pretend everything is going great. But after having endless conversations about our issues, it's pretty clear that things aren't going to change. Eventually you come to the conclusion that it will always be like this, so you learn to live with it until it's time to move on.

As far as the kids know, we have a great marriage. They're not seeing dysfunctional behavior. If we get divorced, I'm not going to tell them that I haven't been happy for X years and have just been waiting to leave. Divorce will be traumatic, but there's ways to make sure the hurt only lasts a short time versus scarring them for life.


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## Lon

wilson said:


> As far as the kids know, we have a great marriage. They're not seeing dysfunctional behavior. If we get divorced, I'm not going to tell them that I haven't been happy for X years and have just been waiting to leave. Divorce will be traumatic, but there's ways to make sure the hurt only lasts a short time versus scarring them for life.


You don't perceive them acting as though they know their family is dysfunctional. But they know. Every time they look to see joy on your face and its not there. And yes there is ways to make the hurt last a short time, and that is by not suffering through an unhappy marriage which you have no faith will survive while they are in their formative years.

I guess I am just too idealistic, I just fail to see how two people not vested in each other riding it out in the same household for the best portion of their lifetime is better than two parents with joy on their faces and people in their lives with whom they have loving supportive relationships doing their best to raise shared children in separate homes.


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## moco82

Enginerd said:


> You make some valid points but I think your projecting a bit. Certainly my wife thinks she's deceiving me about her true feelings, but I'm realistic. She likes the stability and protection I provide, but she's not in love with me. I've also thought about the regret aspect and came to the conclusion I would regret leaving my boys more than the regret from staying in an unsatisfying marriage. I will never marry again so in reality I'm just missing out on some strange. I can live with that. I no longer think marriage is a absolute requirement and have told my boys as much. What they have learned from me is that I take responsibility for my choices and try to put my family first. As far as setting an example of what a good marriage is I don't think thats the same for any two people. Its a totally subjective concept that largely depends on what culture or religion your beliefs are based in. In many countries its normal for a man to have a concubine which is a custom that addresses this issue directly. I would never do that but my point is that your argument is a bit thin on a world wide scale. My household is peacful and supporting. My boys are comfortable, happy and stay out of trouble. They have a sense that its my priority to support them and keep things together. If I found out I was going to die in a few weeks I would still be proud of that.


Thank you very much for this life-affirming post. You have made a difference for me today. I wish more people could step outside the box instead of serving up foam-mouthed defenses of their local cultural dogma.


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## moco82

Lots of volunteers today to field questions alongside Enginerd...



Lon said:


> If you believe marriage isn’t a requirement and go so far as to teach your boys that, why are you demonstrating that it is ok to be hyprocritical?


I'm going to teach my son that it's better to live out a life without marriage than to marry if he has any doubt about doing so. Because marriage with kids and without are two completely different beasts, and the only thing in common between the two is the name. There really ought to be different terms in the language. The latter you can terminate at will (and should be able to do so legally, IMO, for any lawmakers reading this), the former is truly an institution where your every move, no matter how slight, affects your offspring's entire future.



> Not telling her that you would leave her if you weren’t obligated to your kids is certainly not love, and certainly nothing a healthy marriage can ever be built upon.


If by "marriage" you mean simply the relationship between two consenting adults, then that's way down the totem pole if you're a parent.



> telling them “don’t do it like I did” is not a lesson they can heed, because you know precisely that they will do it like you did.


Evidence?



> I don’t care about whatever your culture says, if your relationship needs are not being met then staying in it is eating away at your soul, you have no faith left in your marriage (ie you are unfaithful).


The choice of recreation or movies to watch that is different than you would make if you lived alone may eat away at your soul as well. Reason to enter a co-parenting situation and not be available for your kids as much as you could?



> You say you wouldn’t do that, but ask yourself if a beautiful woman whom you trusted to be discrete and whom came onto you approached you for a NSA, casual affair in a way you knew you wouldn’t get caught and were 100% confident it wouldn’t disrupt the peace and strong relationship with your sons, would you even consider it?


Of course. It's such a realistic scenario too.



> If your W was the one having an affair to meet her own sexual needs (because you already admit that she feels no love, which is essentially sexual attraction, for you) would you accept that?


Yes.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



moco82 said:


> Lots of volunteers today to field questions alongside Enginerd...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to teach my son that it's better to live out a life without marriage than to marry if he has any doubt about doing so. Because marriage with kids and without are two completely different beasts, and the only thing in common between the two is the name. There really ought to be different terms in the language. The latter you can terminate at will (and should be able to do so legally, IMO, for any lawmakers reading this), the former is truly an institution where your every move, no matter how slight, affects your offspring's entire future.
> 
> 
> 
> If by "marriage" you mean simply the relationship between two consenting adults, then that's way down the totem pole if you're a parent.
> 
> 
> 
> Evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> The choice of recreation or movies to watch that is different than you would make if you lived alone may eat away at your soul as well. Reason to enter a co-parenting situation and not be available for your kids as much as you could?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. It's such a realistic scenario too.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.


Moco, you don't marry your children, and I disagree with your notion that a marriage without children is somehow less valid.

I'm not making any judgement calls about the kind of living arrangements any equal partners choose to make. All my disdain is reserved for those who are unhappy about their marriage and unwilling to do anything about it, or worse to shut out, withhold from, lie to and deceive their supposed partner.

The "honor and cherish" part of the vows is just as important as the "til death do you part" bit.


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## sinnister

Right here.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Enginerd said:


> I had to reply to this pointed question. You stick around to make sure your children are well cared for and are kept on a path to happiness and success. The major caveat is that there's no fighting or violence in the household. There are spouses that are in denial or incapable of change no matter how honest you are with them. Confronting them with the truth again and again only serves to upset your household and makes you look like the bad guy. At some point you realize that you made a mistake in the marriage, but the children shouldn't pay for it.
> 
> In my case our lives would be financially devistated if we split. This would dramatically change my childrens lifestyle and reduce their chances for college since we couldn't afford it. I consider that more important then my personal hapiness and telling the occasional lie to my spouse regarding my feelings is a small price to pay for my children.* I think the bigger lie is to leave and claim the children will be better off.*


It is unlikely they will be better off but I have had this conversation with children of divorce who are now grown, and some of them have stated that they were better off because of it. One guy in particular was adamant he would have been a mess as an adult if his parents hadn't divorced. The stories surprised me.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

SadSamIAm said:


> Kudos to you for handling it so well.
> 
> Recently read "The Sex-Starved Marriage: A Couple's Guide to Boosting Their Marital Libido". The first chapter pretty accurately describes my marriage.
> 
> I am approaching 50 and starting to understand what a midlife crisis is. We only live once and I don't want the rest of my life spent feeling angry, alone and not desired.


I'm in the same position. Unlike Enginerd, I can see myself getting married again but I also know that if I wait for my children to be grown and out of the house, I will be nearly 60 years old, making the odds fairly small. I am not interested in spending the rest of my life without intimacy. It is part of who I am and very important. I'm afraid that the stress and emotional/mental anguish I have in this marriage is killing me ... quite literally. 

If I get divorced, life will not be quite the same. My children, however, will still remain my top priority. I will still go to all their activities, help them with their homework, meet with their teachers, tell them I love them daily and simply dedicate time to them. I will never be far from them and they can count on me.


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## Therealbrighteyes

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> It is unlikely they will be better off but I have had this conversation with children of divorce who are now grown, and some of them have stated that they were better off because of it. One guy in particular was adamant he would have been a mess as an adult if his parents hadn't divorced. The stories surprised me.


My parents waited until the day after my twin and my 18th birthday to divorce. It was their plan all along and instead of doing it years earlier, they dragged my sister and I in to their drama, hatred of one another and complete dysfunction by staying together...... thus screwing us up for many, many years. If you want to divorce now, do it. You are not "helping" your kids whatsoever by sticking around. In fact, you are showing them the worst version of relationships and rubber stamping that it's acceptable to be miserable/unloved/abused/cheated/etc. in a relationship. You're setting that example.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My parents waited until the day after my twin and my 18th birthday to divorce. It was their plan all along and instead of doing it years earlier, they dragged my sister and I in to their drama, hatred of one another and complete dysfunction by staying together...... thus screwing us up for many, many years. If you want to divorce now, do it. You are not "helping" your kids whatsoever by sticking around. In fact, you are showing them the worst version of relationships and rubber stamping that it's acceptable to be miserable/unloved/abused/cheated/etc. in a relationship. You're setting that example.


lol, well for clarification there is no abuse or cheating. We are estranged in our own house.

From what I've read, it is no easier on children if you wait for them to be grown adults than to do it when they are children.


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## Therealbrighteyes

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> lol, well for clarification there is no abuse or cheating. We are estranged in our own house.
> 
> From what I've read, it is no easier on children if you wait for them to be grown adults than to do it when they are children.


I wasn't suggesting that there was. I was saying that people stay "for the kids" despite all kinds of atrocities in their marriage under the belief that it's better for the children. It isn't. I think it's harder when they are older actually because their childhood was spent in a home that had tension and drama so that's all they know. If you (not literally you, a collective you) are staying because of children, divorce. Kids deserve to have happy parents and adults who teaches them what healthy relationships are about.


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## moco82

Lon said:


> The "honor and cherish" part of the vows is just as important as the "til death do you part" bit.


What about partners who aren't legally married, and hence never said those vows?


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## Lon

moco82 said:


> What about partners who aren't legally married, and hence never said those vows?


Like I said, I dont care about the formalities of the living arrangement, deceiving your partner, especially over the course of many years, is completely dishonorable, whether you made vows or not.

Mr.Avg said he doesn't think sticking it out for the kids isn't a bad thing so long as the relationship is civil, no fighting and the home is generally stable. And who am I to judge that, if that is how him and his partner both mutually choose to live.

Like brighteyes, I personally don't think that sets a good example, and will only defer the hurt your children will feel. But it's not my choice to make. I simply believe that such a decision should require the informed consent of both parents. 

There is nothing more humiliating and hurtful than to be in a relationship with someone you trust and are vested in and trying to figure out how to make it work with (even if you are failing and it is ultimately hopeless), only to find out they were checked out long ago and let you struggle for years trying to figure it out. There is no bigger act of betrayal than to use someone for years while letting then think they had the same shared goal. Marriage, no matter what kind, requires two consenting adults.

I have no respect for someone who would deliberately harm another person like that, to springboard off them and have no compassion. That is the real example you will be setting for your kids, that it is ok to use people and discard them when you are finished with them. The world doesn't need more people like that.


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## ReformedHubby

I couldn't do this but I recently found out that one of my neighbors has this arrangement. Honestly I had no idea that this was the case. Looking at it from the outside they look and act like everyone else. My only question is how long can they keep it up? Both of their kids are under five. Seems like an awful long time to cohabitate under one roof. The only other thing I notice is that his wife is the one that talks about it. He hasn't really interacted with folks since she started telling the ladies about their arrangement.


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## Emerald

BeachGuy said:


> I'd like to talk to anyone who made this decision. Either reply here or PM me please. Thanks.


Not a man but the husband & I made the decision to stay together until the children went off to college before divorcing.

I know it was the right choice. The children liked living in one home, felt secure & loved. I know this because they thrived. They made good decisions, had a very active school, extra-curricular & social life. They both graduated with 4 yr. degrees & are working. They are happy, well-adjusted & productive members of society. While growing up, they did not have to contend with step-parents, step-siblings, 2 homes, 2 sets of rules, a possible messy divorce, etc.

You see when we made the choice to have children, we also made a "plan" on how to raise them to adulthood. The plan did not include divorce. I firmly believe that those that fail to plan, plan to fail. We stuck with our plan & got the results we wanted. We are no martyrs. Just 2 ordinary people whose marriage broke down for a myriad of reasons but our parenting plan stayed on track.

When I divorced I was 48 years old & my ex-husband was 53. I have re-married & he has an LTR. That was 5 yrs. ago & looking back, we are happy with the decision that we made for our family.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Emerald said:


> Not a man but the husband & I made the decision to stay together until the children went off to college before divorcing.
> 
> I know it was the right choice. The children liked living in one home, felt secure & loved. I know this because they thrived. They made good decisions, had a very active school, extra-curricular & social life. They both graduated with 4 yr. degrees & are working. They are happy, well-adjusted & productive members of society. While growing up, they did not have to contend with step-parents, step-siblings, 2 homes, 2 sets of rules, a possible messy divorce, etc.
> 
> You see when we made the choice to have children, we also made a "plan" on how to raise them to adulthood. The plan did not include divorce. I firmly believe that those that fail to plan, plan to fail. We stuck with our plan & got the results we wanted. We are no martyrs. Just 2 ordinary people whose marriage broke down for a myriad of reasons but our parenting plan stayed on track.
> 
> *When I divorced I was 48 years old & my ex-husband was 53. I have re-married & he has an LTR. That was 5 yrs. ago & looking back, we are happy with the decision that we made for our family.*


I am almost your age now and have at least 12 years to go before the kids are fully out of the house. I will be almost 60 years old. If I could go back in time and make that decision knowing that the kids would be out of the house when I am 48, I would be more willing to do it. As it is right now, I have had little to no companionship or intimacy in my life since turning 40 and honestly it wasn't much better leading up to 40. Call it selfish but the idea of spending the rest of my days without companionship and intimacy is daunting and no matter how I try to justify it or convince myself it is not important, it has taken a tremendous toll on me.


----------



## BeachGuy

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I am almost your age now and have at least 12 years to go before the kids are fully out of the house. I will be almost 60 years old. If I could go back in time and make that decision knowing that the kids would be out of the house when I am 48, I would be more willing to do it. As it is right now, I have had little to no companionship or intimacy in my life since turning 40 and honestly it wasn't much better leading up to 40. Call it selfish but the idea of spending the rest of my days without companionship and intimacy is daunting and no matter how I try to justify it or convince myself it is not important, it has taken a tremendous toll on me.


My thoughts exactly. Same for me. I know if I stay with her...I can be 100% certain I will never have sex again. At least not morally.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

BeachGuy said:


> My thoughts exactly. Same for me. I know if I stay with her...I can be 100% certain I will never have sex again. At least not morally.


That is definitely my fear.


----------



## Enginerd

Lon said:


> Like I said, I dont care about the formalities of the living arrangement, deceiving your partner, especially over the course of many years, is completely dishonorable, whether you made vows or not.
> 
> Mr.Avg said he doesn't think sticking it out for the kids isn't a bad thing so long as the relationship is civil, no fighting and the home is generally stable. And who am I to judge that, if that is how him and his partner both mutually choose to live.
> 
> Like brighteyes, I personally don't think that sets a good example, and will only defer the hurt your children will feel. But it's not my choice to make. I simply believe that such a decision should require the informed consent of both parents.
> 
> There is nothing more humiliating and hurtful than to be in a relationship with someone you trust and are vested in and trying to figure out how to make it work with (even if you are failing and it is ultimately hopeless), only to find out they were checked out long ago and let you struggle for years trying to figure it out. There is no bigger act of betrayal than to use someone for years while letting then think they had the same shared goal. Marriage, no matter what kind, requires two consenting adults.
> 
> I have no respect for someone who would deliberately harm another person like that, to springboard off them and have no compassion. That is the real example you will be setting for your kids, that it is ok to use people and discard them when you are finished with them. The world doesn't need more people like that.




I take serious offense when someone implies that I'm dishorable and says that I'm deliberately harming someone. You are way out of line. Did you ever consider that my wife may not be able take care of herself and our children? Did you ever consider what the cost of the divorce would do to my childrens future? You convienently left that fact out of your counter arguments. I made the decision to bring my children into the world and I currently have the means to help them succeed (which they are) *so I am honoring that committment*. Anyone who says children of divorce are better off in seperate homes is fooling themselves and has done some selective reading. Breaking up a home during a childs development period has a much bigger impact on a childs life then when it happens in adulthood. Again the caveat is that they household they live in is loving and supportive. 

I think you are being too idealistic. You're a pretty black and white guy in a very grey world. I was like that once and then I grew up. If my wife was cheating then I would be gone. I'm nobodies cuckhold and she knows it. She knows my feelings already and she has expressed similar. She really doesn't know what she wants and doesn't plan for the future. It runs in her family. I have to do all the planning and I'm not about to let the CA court system take that away from me. I don't know what its like in Canada, but in CA the bread winner gets to pay for everything and if the bread winner is a man he has almost no say in what happens to his children after divorce. 

I have been through the frustration you speak of and I'm fully aware of what I'm missing. I'm not saying its easy and that I don't struggle, but I know I have to stay home and manage our lives or my boys will suffer. Your situtation may be different. Again I think your projecting your feelings and your situation onto me. I think your trying to justify your situation by believing its dishonorable to not act on your feelings. I find that to be a convienent position and one that seems to be common in western culture these days. Good luck with that black and white thinking.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Enginerd said:


> Lon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I dont care about the formalities of the living arrangement, deceiving your partner, especially over the course of many years, is completely dishonorable, whether you made vows or not.
> 
> Mr.Avg said he doesn't think sticking it out for the kids isn't a bad thing so long as the relationship is civil, no fighting and the home is generally stable. And who am I to judge that, if that is how him and his partner both mutually choose to live.
> 
> Like brighteyes, I personally don't think that sets a good example, and will only defer the hurt your children will feel. But it's not my choice to make. I simply believe that such a decision should require the informed consent of both parents.
> 
> There is nothing more humiliating and hurtful than to be in a relationship with someone you trust and are vested in and trying to figure out how to make it work with (even if you are failing and it is ultimately hopeless), only to find out they were checked out long ago and let you struggle for years trying to figure it out. There is no bigger act of betrayal than to use someone for years while letting then think they had the same shared goal. Marriage, no matter what kind, requires two consenting adults.
> 
> I have no respect for someone who would deliberately harm another person like that, to springboard off them and have no compassion. That is the real example you will be setting for your kids, that it is ok to use people and discard them when you are finished with them. The world doesn't need more people like that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I take serious offense when someone implies that I'm dishorable and says that I'm deliberately harming someone. You are way out of line. Did you ever consider that my wife may not be able take care of herself and our children? Did you ever consider what the cost of the divorce would do to my childrens future? You convienently left that fact out of your counter arguments. I made the decision to bring my children into the world and I currently have the means to help them succeed (which they are) *so I am honoring that committment*. Anyone who says children of divorce are better off in seperate homes is fooling themselves and has done some selective reading. Breaking up a home during a childs development period has a much bigger impact on a childs life then when it happens in adulthood. Again the caveat is that they household they live in is loving and supportive.
> 
> I think you are being too idealistic. You're a pretty black and white guy in a very grey world. I was like that once and then I grew up. If my wife was cheating then I would be gone. I'm nobodies cuckhold and she knows it. She knows my feelings already and she has expressed similar. She really doesn't know what she wants and doesn't plan for the future. It runs in her family. I have to do all the planning and I'm not about to let the CA court system take that away from me. I don't know what its like in Canada, but in CA the bread winner gets to pay for everything and if the bread winner is a man he has almost no say in what happens to their children after divorce.
> 
> I have been through the frustration you speak of and I'm fully aware of what I'm missing. I'm not saying its easy and that I don't struggle, but I know I have to stay home and manage our lives or my boys will suffer. Your situtation may be different. Again I think your projecting your feelings and your situation onto me. I think your trying to justify your situation by believing its dishonorable to not act on your feelings. I find that to be a convienent position and one that seems to be common in western culture these days. Good luck with that black and white thinking.
Click to expand...

I think the primary objection to your position is that the words you use projects that what is right for you is right for everybody else. I think YOU make it sound very black and white. I think it is very much a judgement call based on one's own set of circumstances. When you declare that a person is a fool if they don't believe they will be irreparably harming their children and setting them up for failure then you are implying in very black and white terms that your decision is not just right for you but for everybody else. Have no doubt that the people who have responded here love their children and are struggling or have struggled mightily with the question of what the right thing to do is. In my struggle, the tears I've shed are not for me or my marriage, they are for my two beautiful daughters who mean everything to me.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


----------



## Enginerd

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I think the primary objection to your position is that the words you use projects that what is right for you is right for everybody else. I think YOU make it sound very black and white. I think it is very much a judgement call based on one's own set of circumstances. When you declare that a person is a fool if they don't believe they will be irreparably harming their children and setting them up for failure then you are implying in very black and white terms that your decision is not just right for you but for everybody else. Have no doubt that the people who have responded here love their children and are struggling or have struggled mightily with the question of what the right thing to do is. In my struggle, the tears I've shed are not for me or my marriage, they are for my two beautiful daughters who mean everything to me.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using Android_



You are right. Every situation is different. If I didn't communicate that well then I appologize. I did say there was a caveat. My tears are also for my children. My wife is an adult and she can make her own choices. She is informed.


----------



## Holland

I am a woman that was married to a man whos parents stayed together "for the sake of the kids"

It warped his view of what a happy functional marriage should be. He had huge issues with intimacy. I eventiually ended the marriage but had gone through the questions of should I stay for the kids. In the end I realised that all we were doing was giving our kids the same crappy life my ex was given.

I wanted my kids to see that you do not have to sacrifice your life if in an unfulfiling marriage, the thought that this hell would continue on to the next generation really worried me. I never want my kids to stay in unhappy marriages, I want them to have a better experience than my ex had.

It has been hard but ex and I have done a stunning job of divorce which must sound odd. We co parent well and have remained friends. Our kids are doing really well, excelling at school and are growing up to be well adjusted kids. I am so proud of them, they have handled everything more maturely than many adults would.

Not saying this is how anyone should do things, just that this is how our lives have gone and it was the best thing all round. Kids are far more tuned in than adults give them credit for. My ex was screwed up by his parents horrible marriage and my kids are well balance even though their parents are divorced.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Enginerd said:


> I take serious offense when someone implies that I'm dishorable and says that I'm deliberately harming someone. You are way out of line. Did you ever consider that my wife may not be able take care of herself and our children? Did you ever consider what the cost of the divorce would do to my childrens future? You convienently left that fact out of your counter arguments. I made the decision to bring my children into the world and I currently have the means to help them succeed (which they are) *so I am honoring that committment*. Anyone who says children of divorce are better off in seperate homes is fooling themselves and has done some selective reading. Breaking up a home during a childs development period has a much bigger impact on a childs life then when it happens in adulthood. Again the caveat is that they household they live in is loving and supportive.
> 
> I think you are being too idealistic. You're a pretty black and white guy in a very grey world. I was like that once and then I grew up. If my wife was cheating then I would be gone. I'm nobodies cuckhold and she knows it. She knows my feelings already and she has expressed similar. She really doesn't know what she wants and doesn't plan for the future. It runs in her family. I have to do all the planning and I'm not about to let the CA court system take that away from me. I don't know what its like in Canada, but in CA the bread winner gets to pay for everything and if the bread winner is a man he has almost no say in what happens to his children after divorce.
> 
> I have been through the frustration you speak of and I'm fully aware of what I'm missing. I'm not saying its easy and that I don't struggle, but I know I have to stay home and manage our lives or my boys will suffer. Your situtation may be different. Again I think your projecting your feelings and your situation onto me. I think your trying to justify your situation by believing its dishonorable to not act on your feelings. I find that to be a convienent position and one that seems to be common in western culture these days. Good luck with that black and white thinking.


I'm quite capable of thinking in shades of grey. It may simply be that my definition of honor is different than yours, so I certainly wasn't trying to offend you.

I'm simply coming to the defense of those in unhappy marriages who can't figure out how to fix it, or know just how badly damaged it truly is when their partner knows exactly what is wrong and has plotted to never say. You can list off all your reasons, as, logical as they may be, but unless you trust your partner enough to not deliberately mislead them, then any of those reasons are based completely in fear.

Withholding this crucial bit of information only ensures that it can never actually be repaired. If you decide that it is best for you to live out your irrepairable marriage this way then I believe that is an honorable approach, one which I was also willing to do. The big caveat is that it is not your right to make that decision for someone else, or prevent them from being able to make that decision for themselves. I am too idealistic because I think that is a horrible way to treat another person, let alone one you've made sacred vows with.


----------



## moco82

I think Enginerd explicitly stated that his wife knows the arrangement and has agreed to it.


----------



## wanttofix

wilson said:


> I'm currently in this situation. I figure I can postpone my happiness for a while to ensure the kids grow up with both parents in a good home. Other than no sex, the marriage is fine and we get along.


I know this fun. I also know the consistent anger issues and outbursts. Just today I told her to "figure it out" and she stomps off.


----------



## wanttofix

Holland said:


> I am a woman that was married to a man whos parents stayed together "for the sake of the kids"
> 
> It warped his view of what a happy functional marriage should be. He had huge issues with intimacy. I eventiually ended the marriage but had gone through the questions of should I stay for the kids. In the end I realised that all we were doing was giving our kids the same crappy life my ex was given.
> 
> I wanted my kids to see that you do not have to sacrifice your life if in an unfulfiling marriage, the thought that this hell would continue on to the next generation really worried me. I never want my kids to stay in unhappy marriages, I want them to have a better experience than my ex had.
> 
> It has been hard but ex and I have done a stunning job of divorce which must sound odd. We co parent well and have remained friends. Our kids are doing really well, excelling at school and are growing up to be well adjusted kids. I am so proud of them, they have handled everything more maturely than many adults would.
> 
> Not saying this is how anyone should do things, just that this is how our lives have gone and it was the best thing all round. Kids are far more tuned in than adults give them credit for. My ex was screwed up by his parents horrible marriage and my kids are well balance even though their parents are divorced.


Think about this...

Single mom of three. There was never any struggles financially or discipline issues. As adults, one moves around like a nomad, is in their 60s, one only cares about money and nothing else, in their 60s, and the other has children, but doesn't like spending anymore then 5 minutes with them or anyone but themselves. Why would a parent not want to spend more then 5 minutes with their children or grandchild? None of them went to college. None of them are successful. Just hoping from one ridiculous situation to the next. Confusing.

While another family of three had a couple "stay together for sake of the kids" two went to college and received degrees. Both still working in their field, one did not, but a productive member of society. 

Are these scenarios more common or no? 

Maybe if psychology and counseling was taken serious in the USA, it would be easier to stay together. Someone needs to ban the brain washing machine called Disney.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

wanttofix said:


> Think about this...
> 
> Single mom of three. There was never any struggles financially or discipline issues. As adults, one moves around like a nomad, is in their 60s, one only cares about money and nothing else, in their 60s, and the other has children, but doesn't like spending anymore then 5 minutes with them or anyone but themselves. Why would a parent not want to spend more then 5 minutes with their children or grandchild? None of them went to college. None of them are successful. Just hoping from one ridiculous situation to the next. Confusing.
> 
> While another family of three had a couple "stay together for sake of the kids" two went to college and received degrees. Both still working in their field, one did not, but a productive member of society.
> 
> Are these scenarios more common or no?
> 
> Maybe if psychology and counseling was taken serious in the USA, it would be easier to stay together. Someone needs to ban the brain washing machine called Disney.


Right ... first, you say single mom with no indication of the level of involvement, if any, from the father. Second, you selected situations to make a point ... I can select situations that make an alternate point. My own aunt divorced and she had 3 kids. The oldest graduated near top of class from the US Naval Academy, the middle graduated from Notre Dame and the youngest has scholarship offers from MIT and Stanford for math (don't know which one she chose). The father remained heavily involved in their upbringing. It doesn't mean anything.


----------



## wanttofix

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Right ... first, you say single mom with no indication of the level of involvement, if any, from the father. Second, you selected situations to make a point ... I can select situations that make an alternate point. My own aunt divorced and she had 3 kids. The oldest graduated near top of class from the US Naval Academy, the middle graduated from Notre Dame and the youngest has scholarship offers from MIT and Stanford for math (don't know which one she chose). The father remained heavily involved in their upbringing. It doesn't mean anything.


Good to hear there are exceptions. I am actually happy there are. My world is just ****ed up I guess.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

wanttofix said:


> Good to hear there are exceptions. I am actually happy there are. My world is just ****ed up I guess.


No, there are a lot of worlds just effed up. It is a very difficult decision and I don't believe there is just one right answer.


----------



## moco82

So far little thought has been given to the qualities of a partnership that sticks together for the kids. What exactly could the kids be missing as an example for their future? Having the parents throw the dinner off the table and proceed to have passionate sex on the table? Grabbing each other's junk at every opportunity?

Conversely, for a couple that sticks together because they're in love and in lust, but fight about everything else, is that a better example for the kids because it is not for the kids' sake?


----------



## Racer

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I wasn't suggesting that there was. I was saying that people stay "for the kids" despite all kinds of atrocities in their marriage under the belief that it's better for the children. It isn't. I think it's harder when they are older actually because their childhood was spent in a home that had tension and drama so that's all they know. If you (not literally you, a collective you) are staying because of children, divorce. Kids deserve to have happy parents and adults who teaches them what healthy relationships are about.


Sorry, popping back to this. It is in the approach. I am friends with my wife, we are intimate, we laugh and joke with each other, we go out, date, etc... There is not drama or tension around the house. But I do not love her, I do not respect her, I don’t think she’s wise, etc. Emotionally, I’m no longer attached to her at all: “Her and I”, not “us” anymore. I know horrible things my kids don’t about her and what she has done to betray this family while they were so young. 

My wife is neither pure evil or pure good; like most, somewhere in the middle. But she went too far to the other side to ever really get me back. That does not negate what I still like about her. What I still like; that is what the kids see. I don’t let them in my head that other way. They will see me pull her aside when we disagree, they will get my advise on how to deal with life (and people like her). They will see a father figure doing his best so they don’t repeat his mistakes and can learn from them and my own life lessons. 

And no, my wife probably doesn’t know because things have changed and I’m no longer raging or bringing up her multiple affairs (I’ve said it, but no longer bring it up; she notices that I don’t say ILY anymore... haven’t in 3 years now, nor wear a ring). I let her think whatever she wants; She wanted freedom from me... sometimes getting what you want isn’t quite how you expected it to be.

I may or may not leave her when I feel the kids are old enough to handle it. Until then, I enjoy what this family/married life has to offer instead of focusing on what it doesn’t. I know there is more, but I don’t necessarily need more to find my happy. 

A problem is explaining it out to the kids should I leave when they leave for college. I’m not sure they’ll understand because it will seem like it’s sudden and out of the blue; like we were a good couple. I’m hoping that they will think back to all those discussions about life I’ve been having with them and things will click into place. While my wife lost my feelings of obligation and duty toward her, my family did not; Those kids know I love them. All I can do is fill in the old history, how we made an effort, we did try, but the damage was too deep and continued for far too long. So, we made the best out of what remained; Them, our kids. As they start their new lives without us, we too shall start our own without each other. Not harsh, not mean, just how it is.

In the meantime, all she can do is try to be someone who’s earned it all back by the time the kids go. 4-6 years left for her to be the woman I know she is capable of if she could only let go of the temper (and irrational actions that follow it), the mind reading, and the negativity... If only her words were true: “I will spend the rest of my life trying to make up for this.” To bad she wants to place conditions on that and it’s only words from someone who lies so much.


----------



## tacoma

Lon said:


> Why do you presume it is one or another? Nobody is suggesting to leave your children.


Divorce equals leaving your children for the vast majority of men.
This is a FACT you can attempt to bull**** around but it is the truth beyond a shadow of any doubt.
You will not have the same day to day life with your children you now enjoy....period.



> I’m just suggesting making an arrangement with your equal partner to co-parent in a way that works best for both of you. Be it divorce, MC, in-house separation, open marriage, mutually accepted sexless marriage, whatever.


These kind of replies drive me nuts.
You act as if everyone has a life experience and attitude that allows them to live like they're in a Lifetime movie.
Most people aren't like this, none of these insane suggestions would even be considered without massive drama by 99.9% of spouses anywhere.



> If you believe marriage isn’t a requirement and go so far as to teach your boys that, why are you demonstrating that it is ok to be hyprocritical?


Not being a requirement and being "wrong" are two different things.
There is no hypocrisy in enginerds stance.



> Not telling her that you would leave her if you weren’t obligated to your kids is certainly not love, and certainly nothing a healthy marriage can ever be built upon. So what you are promoting to your kids is an unhealthy relationship, you are leading by example and telling them “don’t do it like I did” is not a lesson they can heed, because you know precisely that they will do it like you did.


More psycho-psuedo bull****.
I am nothing like my parents, my relationship is nothing like theirs.
I am not a carbon copy of my forebears who is doomed to re-live their ****ed up lives over and over again.
In fact much of what I am is because I saw what they did wrong and refuse to repeat it.



> How are you demonstrating responsibility and putting family first when you are deceiving the primary relationship partner in it?


I'm not putting "family first"
I'm putting "child first"
By not allowing my household to splinter, by keeping all opportunities for my kid alive and well.
If I were to divorce my child would lose all that AND have to deal with the trauma of a broken home.



> I don’t care about whatever your culture says, if your relationship needs are not being met then staying in it is eating away at your soul, you have no faith left in your marriage (ie you are unfaithful).


Ridiculous word play.



> I honestly don’t believe that neither of you have zero relationship needs, otherwise you would be 100% content with your marriage, and you wouldn’t even have mentioned the word “concubine”. To me your words seem a lot like the kind of groundwork towards a situation where you can eventually justify sexual infidelity in your own mind. You say you wouldn’t do that, but ask yourself if a beautiful woman whom you trusted to be discrete and whom came onto you approached you for a NSA, casual affair in a way you knew you wouldn’t get caught and were 100% confident it wouldn’t disrupt the peace and strong relationship with your sons, would you even consider it?


I have been rejecting numerous pretty ladies for years now because of the same reasons I stay in my marriage.
An affair would split my home and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
Why would someone go to such lengths to keep his kid stable and do something as stupid as engage in an affair?



> If your W was the one having an affair to meet her own sexual needs (because you already admit that she feels no love, which is essentially sexual attraction, for you) would you accept that? Would you be happy to be cuckholded? Why not, and what if she merely told you that she wanted to have an affair but was too uncertain to actually follow through with it?


No, I wouldn't take that kind of disrespect.
In fact at this point an affair by my wife might be a godsend as that's a crime my kid could understand and accept a divorce for.



> Does this still fit within your own personal definition of a “good marriage”? Separating your children from your marriage, is the relationship with your wife one you truly are proud of?


I don't know of any "good marriages" however you look at it.

Never witnessed one...ever.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



moco82 said:


> I think Enginerd explicitly stated that his wife knows the arrangement and has agreed to it.


If so, I missed that part. All along my main point has not been about how people choose to structure their family unit, its only been that deception is truly evil. From what I know of Enginerd on here, he is an honorable man with integrity, which is why it surprised me that he seemed to be justifying not facing the truth. my apologies to Engineed if I missed that crucial info.


----------



## Sammy64

""I guess I am just too idealistic, I just fail to see how two people not vested in each other riding it out in the same household for the best portion of their lifetime is better than two parents with joy on their faces and people in their lives with whom they have loving supportive relationships doing their best to raise shared children in separate homes. ""
:iagree:

I am thinking the samething, My wife and i are NOT involved at all in the bed room, but there is a D9 and that is what is stoping me... I have filled the D paper work.. we are working thru it, Even after i filed the paper work i did not hear a word from her.. nothing, not even a i love you or you are a ba$tard.. nothing.... i also agree that it is better to rase the child in two differnt HAPPY homes then in one where there is communcation/ sex or even romance...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

tacoma said:


> Divorce equals leaving your children for the vast majority of men.
> This is a FACT you can attempt to bull**** around but it is the truth beyond a shadow of any doubt.
> You will not have the same day to day life with your children you now enjoy....period.
> 
> 
> 
> These kind of replies drive me nuts.
> You act as if everyone has a life experience and attitude that allows them to live like they're in a Lifetime movie.
> Most people aren't like this, none of these insane suggestions would even be considered without massive drama by 99.9% of spouses anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> Not being a requirement and being "wrong" are two different things.
> There is no hypocrisy in enginerds stance.
> 
> 
> 
> More psycho-psuedo bull****.
> I am nothing like my parents, my relationship is nothing like theirs.
> I am not a carbon copy of my forebears who is doomed to re-live their ****ed up lives over and over again.
> In fact much of what I am is because I saw what they did wrong and refuse to repeat it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not putting "family first"
> I'm putting "child first"
> By not allowing my household to splinter, by keeping all opportunities for my kid alive and well.
> If I were to divorce my child would lose all that AND have to deal with the trauma of a broken home.
> 
> 
> 
> Ridiculous word play.
> 
> 
> 
> I have been rejecting numerous pretty ladies for years now because of the same reasons I stay in my marriage.
> An affair would split my home and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
> Why would someone go to such lengths to keep his kid stable and do something as stupid as engage in an affair?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I wouldn't take that kind of disrespect.
> In fact at this point an affair by my wife might be a godsend as that's a crime my kid could understand and accept a divorce for.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know of any "good marriages" however you look at it.
> 
> Never witnessed one...ever.


Whoa, what happened Tacoma?! I thought you and your wife had a good marriage?


----------



## tennisstar

My parents were unhappily married and we knew it. They made sure we knew they were only in it because of us. Do you have any idea how much of a burden it is to carry that? 

My parents divorced when I was 17 and my sister was 12. They wanted to stay together until we grew up, but they couldn't take it. They wasted 20 years if their lives. 

In addition, their dysfunctional relationship affected us. I have been married a few times. I have intimacy fears and have self-esteem issues. My sister is in a bad marriage, staying for her kids, and is depressed severely. She almost died due to anorexia. 

For those of you who think it is best to stay together, I disagree. I lived it, and it was miserable. I will probably never be free of self-esteem issues, even though it is much better 20 years later.

I also cannot imagine how people give up a third or more of their lives to be miserable. You know how they say on a plane to put your own mask on before helping your children? How can we help our children become better people when we are poor role models as far as relationships. We show them life is miserable and good marriages do not exist. 

For those of you who think staying together doesn't affect your children negatively, think again. I have lived it, and the effects are long lasting.

Btw, I divorced and raised a fine young man who is now a professional with his own place, money etc. We didn't live on food stamps, and I have a masters degree and a good job. Not all single moms are uneducated and make minimum wage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

I stayed for the kids. After the first daughter was born I nearly ejected but decided to work on it. Then she "accidentally" got pregnant with daughter #2. I thought she was trying to work on the marriage but instead she was on fertility meds. 

So then I decided I could not leave the girls to the possible risks of whatever men their mother might bring into the house if we divorced. It is ironic, being that due to her CSA there is no way she would have brought men near the girls. Though I did not know of her abuse at the time so I was not able to make an informed decision about my future.

Once the eldest daughter reached about 14 the drama ramped up exponentially. At that point I went on 3 year plans. I had to stay for the next 3 years until she went off to college. By then daughter #2 was 3 years from graduation and the drama ramped up with her. So again I decided to somehow avoid D at all costs for the next 3 years.

When she graduated things were marginally better sort of, so I decided to give it until the end of the school year. As I look back, this is the time period I strongly suspect W was in an affair. I started some lightweight snooping (pre-TAM), never discovering anything substantial. By the end of the school year things were bad, an ex-bf of hers had shown up on FaceBook, and there were some pretty suspicious behaviors around her computer & email. So that is when I gave her the fix it or end it ultimatum. (2.5 years ago now).

Looking back I think I made the right choice to stay once the drama started with the girls. Prior to that I should have left. The kids would have had a decent environment in my home for the 50% custody. Instead there was a lot of tension and discord at home during those years of drama.

For the kids, having one home with unhappy parents is far from ideal. Having 2 homes with relatively happy divorced parents is not so bad.

My bottom line opinion is that the kids should only be a tie breaker in the D vs stay decision. If the marriage is not acceptable on it's own merits, the kids won't make it better.


----------



## chillymorn

Reading throught these posts are tough!

there are no right and wrong ways its just what right or wrong for each and every situation.

I supose if you could divorce with out all the drama and hating on eachother and still act as a good parenting thren that would be best. But we all realise that all too often that would not be the case.

Don't really have an answer.....But I have been thinking about what I would advise my own son to do if he was in this situation. the problem is each and every situation is different.

1) if there is abuse,cheating,finiancial infidelity which threaten the good of the family. then I would say divorce and be the best parent with whatever happens. life is not fair and you can not make everthing peaches and cream for your children.

2) lack of love,sex,compaionship etc. Then I would say work on it as best you can but keep an eye open and try to protect yourself in case of divorce. with patience and love and time who knows what might happen.

3) you truly just do not love eachother anymore. then try to divorce on friendly terms and still be good parents. this situation might be one of the lucky dovorces where everybody gets along and lives happy after all.

I do think staying in a unhappy marriage can be very detramental to children. even if both spouces play fake nice. 

I also think that you deserve happiness as a person and scacrificing your happiness is showing your children its ok to be unhappy at the price of their happiness. which in turn will set them up for an unhappy life.


wow life ani't easy. thats for f***ing sure.


----------



## moco82

Tennisstar, Chillymorn,

The assumption that cohabiting people who are not in love/lust are automatically miserable seems to underpin your arguments. That's a bit simplistic.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



tacoma said:


> Divorce equals leaving your children for the vast majority of men.
> This is a FACT you can attempt to bull**** around but it is the truth beyond a shadow of any doubt.
> You will not have the same day to day life with your children you now enjoy....period.
> 
> ______________
> I agree, post-divorce your children's world will be vastly different. you have to ask yourself what is the most important lesson for your children to learn, to forever blind/ shield those you love from emotional pain, to ignore reality and deny them the truth so as to save them heartache, or to value their principles and devote their lives to their own children despite making mistakes along the way?
> __________________
> 
> 
> These kind of replies drive me nuts.
> You act as if everyone has a life experience and attitude that allows them to live like they're in a Lifetime movie.
> Most people aren't like this, none of these insane suggestions would even be considered without massive drama by 99.9% of spouses anywhere.
> 
> ____________________
> I don't expect people to be perfect, in fact I expect them to be imperfect. What lesson does it teach your kids to only allow them to see perfection, and blinding them from our biggest mistakes? How do you expect them to develop the maturity to make their own responsible decisions in life? I don't mean this to be purely a lesson in tough love, to harden your kids or train them to be bitter, I just wouldn't want them to be doomed to a life of unrealistic expectations.
> ________________
> 
> 
> Not being a requirement and being "wrong" are two different things.
> There is no hypocrisy in enginerds stance.
> 
> ________________
> All depends on which principles a person wants to live by.
> ________________
> 
> More psycho-psuedo bull****.
> I am nothing like my parents, my relationship is nothing like theirs.
> I am not a carbon copy of my forebears who is doomed to re-live their ****ed up lives over and over again.
> In fact much of what I am is because I saw what they did wrong and refuse to repeat it.
> 
> _________________
> Exactly my point, you were able to see what they did wrong. If you thought what they did was right you wouldn't have diverged. My argument is that sticking out an unhealthy relationship may not be the right course of action, in some circumstances of course.
> _________________
> 
> 
> I'm not putting "family first"
> I'm putting "child first"
> By not allowing my household to splinter, by keeping all opportunities for my kid alive and well.
> If I were to divorce my child would lose all that AND have to deal with the trauma of a broken home.
> 
> ______________
> and if that is a mutual decision by both parents I completely respect that.
> _______________
> 
> Ridiculous word play.
> 
> 
> 
> I have been rejecting numerous pretty ladies for years now because of the same reasons I stay in my marriage.
> An affair would split my home and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid.
> Why would someone go to such lengths to keep his kid stable and do something as stupid as engage in an affair?
> 
> _____________
> Sounds like an unrewarding and lonely way to live. Do you ever feel like you lack true intimacy? As for myself, I have come to realize that true intimacy is a genuine need, and if I resign myself to never strive for it I may as well just end my life.
> _______________
> 
> 
> No, I wouldn't take that kind of disrespect.
> In fact at this point an affair by my wife might be a godsend as that's a crime my kid could understand and accept a divorce for.
> 
> _____________
> Be careful what you ask for.
> ______________
> 
> 
> I don't know of any "good marriages" however you look at it.
> 
> Never witnessed one...ever.


I am sorry you can't see any good marriages. Like I said in this comment, no relationship is perfect, even the best marriages I have seen have faced near impossible challenges. marriages go through good times and bad, and as long as both spouses want to keep working together (ie have faith, I know that sounds like ridiculous wordplay) then there is reason to just keep plugging away at it. Just having enough faith to stick it out together seems good to me.


----------



## moco82

> As for myself, I have come to realize that true intimacy is a genuine need, and if I resign myself to never strive for it I may as well just end my life.


You seem to extrapolate this need to other men. Yet it may not be right there below wi-fi at the base of Maslow's pyramind for them.


----------



## chillymorn

moco82 said:


> Tennisstar, Chillymorn,
> 
> The assumption that cohabiting people who are not in love/lust are automatically miserable seems to underpin your arguments. That's a bit simplistic.


Its not an assumption. for me its a truth.

my post was my opinion on this topic and how I would advise my own children should they ask if they were ever in this or these situations.

just took a look at some of your threads....you sounds misseralbe to me.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



moco82 said:


> You seem to extrapolate this need to other men. Yet it may not be right there below wi-fi at the base of Maslow's pyramind for them.


The nature of my own personal need is moot here, the point was that if you have genuine needs and you willfully ignore them forever, then you have nobody but yourself to blame for your unhappiness, and you forfeit the privilege of complaining about it.


----------



## love=pain

I understand the dilemma heck I'm in it myself when I first found out about her cheating the kids were the biggest thing to make me stop and turn around and try to reconcile.
Now a year and a half into it and the emotional stuff has calmed down and I see things a bit clearer.
What I know is that kids are used to divorce much more than when I was young (I didn't really know my dad which was rare in the area I grew up) look at their friends over half of my kids friends are from divorced households. They have spoken before about not seeing so and so this weekend because they were at their mom/dad's, when I coached baseball many of the kids were of divorced parents. So it is much more common and accepted than years ago it won't be so shocking to your kids, will they be sad and maybe confused sure but if both of you put the kids first and stick to the ideals you both share in raising them it will be fine.
Now I am here because I want to be, not because of the kids or money or anything else, if I change my mind then I will end it. If you stay the lack of sex or the lack of whatever may grind on you over time and affect the kids more than a divorce.

Just my 2 Lincolns


----------



## Holland

wanttofix said:


> Think about this...
> 
> Single mom of three. There was never any struggles financially or discipline issues. As adults, one moves around like a nomad, is in their 60s, one only cares about money and nothing else, in their 60s, and the other has children, but doesn't like spending anymore then 5 minutes with them or anyone but themselves. Why would a parent not want to spend more then 5 minutes with their children or grandchild? None of them went to college. None of them are successful. Just hoping from one ridiculous situation to the next. Confusing.
> 
> While another family of three had a couple "stay together for sake of the kids" two went to college and received degrees. Both still working in their field, one did not, but a productive member of society.
> 
> Are these scenarios more common or no?
> 
> Maybe if psychology and counseling was taken serious in the USA, it would be easier to stay together. Someone needs to ban the brain washing machine called Disney.


Not exactly sure what you are trying to say, that kids from divorced families are at a disadvantage? If so then I disagree.

My kids are all being well educated, have two very loving and involved parents and are happy and well adjusted kids. I know of plenty of families where the parents live together in silent suffering and unhappiness, showing the kids a miserable example of what life is about.

Disney has less than nothing to do with my life, so again you are incorrect in this assumption.


----------



## Racer

Holland said:


> Not exactly sure what you are trying to say, that kids from divorced families are at a disadvantage? If so then I disagree..


Some are. I could tell you some stories from my assistant and what it was like for her and her siblings in the wake of the divorce. Things like her mom making it her fault the mother’s latest boyfriend tried to have sex with her or her sister (she still can’t sleep in a room without a lock on the door); guess who got knocked up by one of the mother’s boyfriends... wasn’t the mother. Guess who always knew her mother was cheating on her latest boyfriend... Guess who had to comfort her mother and feed that needy monster inside. 

Ditto for my SIL (alcoholic) who’s divorced and the things she put her kids through; She lived with 4 different men, 6 different homes within the first couple years.. Nothing like showing up at mom’s place just to be told she no longer lives there and having to call dad to come back until they figured out where mom was. Then spending the weekend watching her passed out. 

And there’s not a damn thing the father’s can do about it but watch in horror and bankrupt himself to fight it in family court. 

Try to remember that some WW’s seem to be entirely self-centered. Karma bus hitting them is fine... just don’t forget who’s by their side too when that bus comes crashing. Not every story is pretty. Glad yours worked out as is the usual case from what I hear... but some don’t. 

So... I try to help guys in that nasty predicament who have decided for whatever reason to stay in this mess. It is their choice to make. I don’t tell them it is a wrong choice. I just try to tell him how they might survive it.

_“Happiness consists not of having, but of being; not of possessing, but of enjoying. It is a warm glow of the heart at peace with itself. A martyr at the stake may have happiness that a king on his throne might envy. Man is the creator of his own happiness. It is the aroma of life, lived in harmony with high ideals. For what a man has he may be dependent upon others; what he is rests with him alone.” _
David O. McKay, Pathways to Happiness

I wasn't miserable without my wife. I don't have to miserable with her either. She doesn't get to control my emotional state anymore; I do.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Holland said:


> Not exactly sure what you are trying to say, that kids from divorced families are at a disadvantage? If so then I disagree.
> 
> My kids are all being well educated, have two very loving and involved parents and are happy and well adjusted kids. I know of plenty of families where the parents live together in silent suffering and unhappiness, showing the kids a miserable example of what life is about.
> 
> Disney has less than nothing to do with my life, so again you are incorrect in this assumption.


There are so many variables that influence the quality of a child's life. Divorce by itself is a circumstance that will change living arrangements so that they will not match the idyllic vision of what a happy childhood is ... the white picket fence, family sunday drive, leave it to beaver life. That ideal is relevant to our culture but children are raised to be productive, happy, well-adjusted adults in many other circumstances across the world that don't follow our model for an ideal childhood.

Statistics show that children of divorce are at a disadvantage. It is a statistic that covers every possible scenario with only one thing in common ... divorce. It doesn't mean that a child will be at a disadvantage or that children in two-parent households will have a better life ... only that it is more likely that they will be at a disadvantage.

There are so many things that influence the quality of a child's life that your energy is better spent focusing on those things than beating yourself up over a divorce.

Those statistics include:
- Divorce that results from verbal and physical abuse.
- Divorce that results from infidelity.
- Divorce that results from sexual abuse.
- Divorce that results from substance abuse or other addictions.
- Divorce that results from criminal activity or incarceration.
- Divorce that results from or results in abandonment by one of the parents. A single parent household.
- Divorce that results in hostility and uncooperative parents.
- Divorce where children are used as bargaining chips or are otherwise brought into the middle of the situation.
- Divorce that results in extreme financial difficulties for one or both of the parents. Alimony or child support payments not made, etc.

... and many more situations I can't think of off the top of my head.

The statistic does not ONLY include two supportive and cooperative parents who continue to make their children their top priorities after a divorce. 

There are so many things that can negatively influence a child's upbringing in a two-parent home:

- Physical, verbal, sexual abuse of spouse or children.
- Substance abuse/addiction by one or more parents.
- An environment of anger, hostility, distrust.
- An environment of extreme discipline ... or conversely, no discipline.
- An environment that lacks love, affection ... or family bonding time. Parents who are not emotionally available for each other or their children.
- Parents who do not value an education.
- Parents who put their activities or careers first.
- Parents who maintain a marriage, share a common roof but do not invest time into their children.
- Parents who treat their children as friends or equals instead of raising them to be responsible adults.
- An environment where there is no accountability.
- Parents that push their children beyond what can be reasonably expected ... or conversely parents who do not set expectations for their children.
- An environment where one or both parents stay for the children and at the same time begrudges them for the situation.

... and on and on and on.

It just isn't that simple.

A few years back I separated from my wife as a last desperate attempt to fix our marriage. Funny thing happened during that separation. I spent more quality time dedicated to my children during that time than I had ever spent with them before. It wasn't the same as seeing them daily but for the first time, they got more attention from me than the circumstances of my marriage. We were already close but that year we grew much closer. Whole days spent together just talking, laughing, playing. I have on my desk here at work a gift from my beautiful daughters ... a photo album of memories from our year together. We talk about that now and they do not remember it as a bad time ... different maybe but mostly just fond memories.


----------



## Lon

Disadvantaged children are disadvantaged because of one or more bad parents. There is probably correlation between a bad parent and divorce, but not necessarily causation, many people can remain good parents despite separation. Atleast one of my child's parents is an example. No amount of sticking out a bad marriage will fix the disadvantage of having a bad parent.


----------



## moco82

chillymorn said:


> Its not an assumption. for me its a truth.
> 
> my post was my opinion on this topic and how I would advise my own children should they ask if they were ever in this or these situations.
> 
> just took a look at some of your threads....you sounds misseralbe to me.


My humble person is not in question here, we're talking generics.


----------



## moco82

Lon said:


> The nature of my own personal need is moot here, the point was that if you have genuine needs and you willfully ignore them forever, then you have nobody but yourself to blame for your unhappiness, and you forfeit the privilege of complaining about it.


What some of the other posters are trying to drive home is that you impute these needs to everyone, whereas not everyone necessarily has them. If one indeed has these "needs", then your point is valid.


----------



## Emerald

I think parents have a responsibility to their children to provide them with a safe & happy childhood. If this means denying our own marital happiness, then so be it. I was miserable in my marriage but didn't let my children know it because it was not their problem nor burden. They of course knew that the marriage wasn't great but never once wanted us to divorce. Their friends whose parents divorced were sad & stressed over the divorce. New homes, new step-parents, holiday conflicts, financial problems, different home rules & the list goes on. Raising children is hard enough w/o the complications & changes that come with a divorce.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



moco82 said:


> What some of the other posters are trying to drive home is that you impute these needs to everyone, whereas not everyone necessarily has them. If one indeed has these "needs", then your point is valid.


Yes, everyone in a relationship has relationship needs. Those needs vary amongst all people, but they, exist in all. The 5 love languages is a perfect example of needs in effect. To pretend you have no needs, or to ignore them is very destructive to a marriage.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Emerald said:


> I think parents have a responsibility to their children to provide them with a safe & happy childhood. If this means denying our own marital happiness, then so be it. I was miserable in my marriage but didn't let my children know it because it was not their problem nor burden. They of course knew that the marriage wasn't great but never once wanted us to divorce. Their friends whose parents divorced were sad & stressed over the divorce. New homes, new step-parents, holiday conflicts, financial problems, different home rules & the list goes on. Raising children is hard enough w/o the complications & changes that come with a divorce.


So what you are saying is that because I have children, I should simply accept that I will live the rest of my days without intimacy. That I will never again be able to share myself and feel the warmth and love of a woman that I love. I should accept the financial ruin and extreme imbalance of responsibilites that the dynamic of my marriage has wrought. That I should allow my children to learn from and model their lives from their mom with whom I live the life she chooses and not the life that I want or think is remotely healthy. That I should allow my daughters to learn from and model their relationships after ours, completely devoid of love or affection. I should accept that, suck it up andlearn to be happy with it ... because of course, that is what is in the best interest of my children.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Emerald said:


> I think parents have a responsibility to their children to provide them with a safe & happy childhood. If this means denying our own marital happiness, then so be it. I was miserable in my marriage but didn't let my children know it because it was not their problem nor burden. They of course knew that the marriage wasn't great but never once wanted us to divorce. Their friends whose parents divorced were sad & stressed over the divorce. New homes, new step-parents, holiday conflicts, financial problems, different home rules & the list goes on. Raising children is hard enough w/o the complications & changes that come with a divorce.


if both parents are in agreement I completely respect this. I think the only potential trouble I see in this thinking is that you don't want to be a burden on your kids, yet you expect them to feel like they are a burden on your marriage. Feeling like a burden is why kids that grew up under un healthy marriages say it would have been better for their parents to have divorced. Being the glue that holds together a family is a big, invisible responsibility.


----------



## tryingtoenjoylife

wilson said:


> I think a lot depends on why you don't have sex and what sex means to you. My wife has LD and had tried many things to fix it. She's better than most. But the fact is that she just doesn't desire it. If I make a big effort I can get her in the mood, but that's not satisfying. I end up feeling worse because I feel like I manipulated her into having sex and she didn't do it because she's attracted to me.
> 
> So I have learned to accept that is the way she is. She's still a good person and a good parent, but there's just not the sex drive. If instead I felt she was doing this to manipulate me, I would leave. If we didn't have kids I would leave. But in the end, you have to weigh your desire for happiness against the pain it would cause the kids.
> 
> I think divorce will most negatively impact kids between the ages of around 8-17. Before that they are still young and resilient. After that they are starting to get their own life. But divorce in those middle years can deeply affect kids. Not always, but you never know. So unless the home life is pretty bad, I think it's worth it to stay together for the sanity of the kids if they are in those middle ages.


WOW, I could have written this post word for word. In fact I did a double check to make sure I didn't.


----------



## wilson

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> So what you are saying is that because I have children, I should simply accept that I will live the rest of my days without intimacy.


Not at all. You don't have to stay in the marriage forever. Eventually the kids get to an age where the divorce will not have a drastic or permanent effect on them. If you divorce when they're 20, they'll get over it without any long-lasting effect. But get divorced when they're tweens and it will likely cause major personality changes and life-long issues.

Of course, divorce needs to be balanced against the home life. If there is lots of arguing and fighting, then that's not a good environment. But if the parents can get along as roommates, then the kids will be better off if divorce can be delayed until they are older and out of the house.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



wilson said:


> Not at all. You don't have to stay in the marriage forever. Eventually the kids get to an age where the divorce will not have a drastic or permanent effect on them. If you divorce when they're 20, they'll get over it without any long-lasting effect. But get divorced when they're tweens and it will likely cause major personality changes and life-long issues.
> 
> Of course, divorce needs to be balanced against the home life. If there is lots of arguing and fighting, then that's not a good environment. But if the parents can get along as roommates, then the kids will be better off if divorce can be delayed until they are older and out of the house.


I disagree, my parents had a good relationship (or atleast have convinced me it was) not always rosey, many issues they faced, like all relationships. However if they had suddenly pulled the plug when I was around 20ish I am pretty sure it would have traumatized me and left me feeling disillusioned about everything in life.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

wilson said:


> Not at all. You don't have to stay in the marriage forever. Eventually the kids get to an age where the divorce will not have a drastic or permanent effect on them. If you divorce when they're 20, they'll get over it without any long-lasting effect. But get divorced when they're tweens and it will likely cause major personality changes and life-long issues.
> 
> Of course, divorce needs to be balanced against the home life. If there is lots of arguing and fighting, then that's not a good environment. But if the parents can get along as roommates, then the kids will be better off if divorce can be delayed until they are older and out of the house.


I will be 60 years old and you are ignoring my other comments. While intimacy after 60 is possible, it is not as likely by a long shot.


----------



## soccermom2three

Lon said:


> I disagree, my parents had a good relationship (or atleast have convinced me it was) not always rosey, many issues they faced, like all relationships. However if they had suddenly pulled the plug when I was around 20ish I am pretty sure it would have traumatized me and left me feeling disillusioned about everything in life.


I agree. If my parents had suddenly divorced, (at least sudden to me), when I turned 18 it would've totally blindsided me. I would look back at my life, family and parent's marriage as totally fake and a sham. I would've felt deceived by my parents.


----------



## tryingtoenjoylife

You know, when I was in my early 20s I thought the guys who made the affair excuse of "she doesn't have sex anymore" were full of crap. All of these women I dated seemed to love sex and initiated it more than I did - including my wife. 

Now that I have been married for 18 years I see the light. These men aren't full of crap, they are horny as hell and their wives control them. They will make them to be the bad guy for running around when in reality they are the bad girls for expecting them to comply to their lack of interest. 

As I have posted in other threads, I had been faithful to my wife for 16 years and the last 6 have been ridiculous. She never initiates sex, she belittles my needs. When we do have sex it is the same position and she gives no effort. She belittles me in other areas and I am through with it. I am not man enough to just walk out because I don't want to hurt the kids. 

So, what do I do? I've had an affair - now more than one. The first was with a married woman and it ran its course. We both got what we needed and decided to end it before we became too emotionally attached. The last was a one-night stand. Something I would have never considered, but once again I was belittled and my needs were insignificant to her. I am sure one day that I will be caught and I will be made to be the bad guy for running around. Honestly, I think this is what she is hoping will happen.


----------



## wilson

soccermom2three said:


> I agree. If my parents had suddenly divorced, (at least sudden to me), when I turned 18 it would've totally blindsided me. I would look back at my life, family and parent's marriage as totally fake and a sham. I would've felt deceived by my parents.


Totally blindsided, yes. Angry, yes. If it affects you that much at 18, at 13 it would likely have a huge impact. Maybe getting into sex, drugs, trouble, etc. At 18 you'd be mad, but unlikely to go off the rails because of it. And why would you think it's a sham? They likely had many good years. Just because they get divorced doesn't mean they didn't deeply love each other at one time.

I guess the question should be split into two parts:

1. Stay together until the kids are grown
2. Stay together forever

I think you should consider staying together until they're grown. I don't think you should stay together forever just so that they they don't get upset.

An adult shouldn't feel obligated to be miserable to make another adult happy. But kids are another matter. Kids don't have the freedom to find their own happiness, whatever that means to them. The 18-year-old can work through the issue, move out, whatever. A kid doesn't have those options. The parent is responsible for them and their happiness.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

wilson said:


> soccermom2three said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. If my parents had suddenly divorced, (at least sudden to me), when I turned 18 it would've totally blindsided me. I would look back at my life, family and parent's marriage as totally fake and a sham. I would've felt deceived by my parents.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally blindsided, yes. Angry, yes. If it affects you that much at 18, at 13 it would likely have a huge impact. Maybe getting into sex, drugs, trouble, etc. At 18 you'd be mad, but unlikely to go off the rails because of it. And why would you think it's a sham? They likely had many good years. Just because they get divorced doesn't mean they didn't deeply love each other at one time.
> 
> I guess the question should be split into two parts:
> 
> 1. Stay together until the kids are grown
> 2. Stay together forever
> 
> I think you should consider staying together until they're grown. I don't think you should stay together forever just so that they they don't get upset.
> 
> An adult shouldn't feel obligated to be miserable to make another adult happy. But kids are another matter. Kids don't have the freedom to find their own happiness, whatever that means to them. The 18-year-old can work through the issue, move out, whatever. A kid doesn't have those options. The parent is responsible for them and their happiness.
Click to expand...

I fail to understand how a child is predestined to be screwed up for the rest of their life as a result of a divorce. Certainly the circumstances around the divorce or how the child is raised after a divorce can have a tremendous impact but that is not the same thing. I also fail to see how a child can be any more permanently screwed up than the impact of any number of scenarios that happen in a home where the parents do not divorce. You'll have to explain that to me.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

You know what my youngest daughter says to her mom, sister ... pretty much weekly? "Daddy is sad". "Why is daddy sad?" ... or she'll come up to me and declare "You're sad!" and then ask "why are you sad?" I'll deny it but then I get "no, you're sad."

Other questions that come up - "Why don't you and mommy sleep in the same room together? That's weird" ... or "All my friends mommys and daddys only have one bed"


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## Lyris

I think it's almost always best for children to have only one home.

That being said, if I was living in a marriage without love, sex and fun I would leave if I couldn't make it better. But I'd do so knowing that it was better for me and worse for my daughters.


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## ElCanario

My wife and I alternate between brief moments of peace, long stretches dull, passionless tension, and days of white-hot hatred and rage. We really should not be together. I stay because I don't want my boys not to have their father in the home. Probably when the little one grows up and leaves (he's 12 now), this marriage will be over faster than the half-life of technetium.


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## Openminded

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I will be 60 years old and you are ignoring my other comments. While intimacy after 60 is possible, it is not as likely by a long shot.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> .


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Emerald said:


> I think parents have a responsibility to their children to provide them with a safe & happy childhood. If this means denying our own marital happiness, then so be it. I was miserable in my marriage but didn't let my children know it because it was not their problem nor burden. They of course knew that the marriage wasn't great but never once wanted us to divorce. Their friends whose parents divorced were sad & stressed over the divorce. New homes, new step-parents, holiday conflicts, financial problems, different home rules & the list goes on. Raising children is hard enough w/o the complications & changes that come with a divorce.


This is exactly what my H wants me to do. I've said many times that he just wants me to shut up and be happy.

But neither one of us are happy. At the best of times, we avoid each other when the kids aren't around. At the worst of times, we scream at each other. The environment in our home is toxic and my pediatrician recently told us that my son, age 5, is suffering from anxiety. I have to think it's from his home life.

So, I am going to leave my H after many years of trying to make it work. Raising children is hard, and sometimes you have to make a hard choice to leave because that is what is in the best interest of the children.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

ElCanario said:


> My wife and I alternate between brief moments of peace, long stretches dull, passionless tension, and days of white-hot hatred and rage. We really should not be together. I stay because I don't want my boys not to have their father in the home. Probably when the little one grows up and leaves (he's 12 now), this marriage will be over faster than the half-life of technetium.



I bet if you asked your son what he wanted, he probably would want you to divorce. I know that sounds odd, but I've researched this a lot. 

The kids who are sad about their parents' divorce are the ones who were either blindsided by it because their parents never gave any clues or because their parents played awful, manipulative games during the divorce process and after.

The kids who see their parents fight a lot, who have to live in a near war zone, just want their parents to be happy and they want to live in PEACE. Google it. Go google the phrase "glad my parents got divorced" and see what you find. Then go read some scientific studies about the same. I think you'll be surprised.


----------



## ElCanario

ebp123 said:


> I bet if you asked your son what he wanted, he probably would want you to divorce. I know that sounds odd, but I've researched this a lot.
> 
> The kids who are sad about their parents' divorce are the ones who were either blindsided by it because their parents never gave any clues or because their parents played awful, manipulative games during the divorce process and after.
> 
> The kids who see their parents fight a lot, who have to live in a near war zone, just want their parents to be happy and they want to live in PEACE. Google it. Go google the phrase "glad my parents got divorced" and see what you find. Then go read some scientific studies about the same. I think you'll be surprised.


I have asked both kids. The 16 year old doesn't want us to divorce, the little one is indifferent. He just says, "I don't know."


----------



## SurpriseMyself

ElCanario said:


> I have asked both kids. The 16 year old doesn't want us to divorce, the little one is indifferent. He just says, "I don't know."


Ooo... well, I didn't mean to actually ask them. That puts undue pressure on them and can make them feel responsible for their family in a way they never should have to be or think about.


----------



## ElCanario

ebp123 said:


> Ooo... well, I didn't mean to actually ask them. That puts undue pressure on them and can make them feel responsible for their family in a way they never should have to be or think about.


Well, it wasn't that direct. But their wonderful mother thought it would be good to get all of this out in the open so we all sat down and talked about the situation.


----------



## The Baseball Coach

wilson said:


> I think a lot depends on why you don't have sex and what sex means to you. My wife has LD and had tried many things to fix it. She's better than most. But the fact is that she just doesn't desire it. If I make a big effort I can get her in the mood, but that's not satisfying. I end up feeling worse because I feel like I manipulated her into having sex and she didn't do it because she's attracted to me.
> 
> So I have learned to accept that is the way she is. She's still a good person and a good parent, but there's just not the sex drive. If instead I felt she was doing this to manipulate me, I would leave. If we didn't have kids I would leave. But in the end, you have to weigh your desire for happiness against the pain it would cause the kids.
> 
> I think divorce will most negatively impact kids between the ages of around 8-17. Before that they are still young and resilient. After that they are starting to get their own life. But divorce in those middle years can deeply affect kids. Not always, but you never know. So unless the home life is pretty bad, I think it's worth it to stay together for the sanity of the kids if they are in those middle ages.


I can relate to the above statement! Because I have a 15 year old son who I love very much is a major reason that I have not left and/or actively sought something on the side. Sometimes I dream that if I can just get through the next three years without screwing it up (literally and figuratively) then I might do something after he leaves for college. 

Yet on the other hand my wife is a good person and a good parent. Does one divorce or seek pleasure somewhere else because one spouse is not interested in sex and the other one has a strong sex drive that is not being fulfilled? That is the battle that I am facing.


----------



## BeachGuy

The Baseball Coach said:


> I can relate to the above statement! Because I have a 15 year old son who I love very much is a major reason that I have not left and/or actively sought something on the side. Sometimes I dream that if I can just get through the next three years without screwing it up (literally and figuratively) then I might do something after he leaves for college.
> 
> Yet on the other hand my wife is a good person and a good parent. Does one divorce or seek pleasure somewhere else because one spouse is not interested in sex and the other one has a strong sex drive that is not being fulfilled? That is the battle that I am facing.


Which brings back the question of how will the kids feel as adults when they understand you stayed (unhappily) "for them"? Major guilt trip for them.


----------



## Jung_admirer

tacoma said:


> More psycho-psuedo bull****.
> I am nothing like my parents, my relationship is nothing like theirs.
> I am not a carbon copy of my forebears who is doomed to re-live their ****ed up lives over and over again.
> In fact much of what I am is because I saw what they did wrong and refuse to repeat it.
> 
> I'm not putting "family first"
> I'm putting "child first"
> By not allowing my household to splinter, by keeping all opportunities for my kid alive and well.
> If I were to divorce my child would lose all that AND have to deal with the trauma of a broken home.


I truly wish you were right and Jung was wrong. This legacy of being forced to clean up after our parents is egregiously unfair. There are serious repercussions to the children regardless of your choice. Have you read anything by Leo Buscaglia? His one truth echos, "You cannot give what you do not have". My question would then be: How do you provide for your children the basic compassion you deny yourself in accepting a partnership devoid of intimacy? Both parents must project their intimacy needs on to the children, seek to have their needs fulfilled elsewhere, or live with escalating neurotic depression.

Perhaps Jung & Buscaglia were mistaken? I don't know of any good answers here and for that I am sorry.


----------



## wilson

BeachGuy said:


> Which brings back the question of how will the kids feel as adults when they understand you stayed (unhappily) "for them"? Major guilt trip for them.


You wouldn't tell them that. Tell them that you were happy being a parent, but when it was just you and mom then you realized your relationship wasn't as strong as you thought. Or something like that. 

If you're staying together for the kids, there's no sense in laying a guilt trip on them after it's over.


----------



## Thor

I certainly knew my parents were not in a happy marriage. When they announced their divorce my siblings and I all wondered what took them so long.


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## Enginerd

Jung_admirer said:


> I truly wish you were right and Jung was wrong. This legacy of being forced to clean up after our parents is egregiously unfair. There are serious repercussions to the children regardless of your choice. Have you read anything by Leo Buscaglia? His one truth echos, "You cannot give what you do not have". My question would then be: How do you provide for your children the basic compassion you deny yourself in accepting a partnership devoid of intimacy? Both parents must project their intimacy needs on to the children, seek to have their needs fulfilled elsewhere, or live with escalating neurotic depression.
> 
> Perhaps Jung & Buscaglia were mistaken? I don't know of any good answers here and for that I am sorry.



Perhaps they were mostly correct, but didn't consider the potential socio-economic impact of divorce. I wish raising children was only about developing their heart and soul. I believe there's a practical side that many Americans seem to have forgotten. Obviously their physical and psychological health is at the top of the parenting pyramid, but I place education and socio-economic opportunity second. In my case a divorce would eliminate my ability to provide my boys with a college education and would ultimately limit their financial/class mobility. I'm not OK with that since I know what it means for their future. My mother was married 5 times and I can be called a survivor of that experience at best. I clawed my way to the upper middle class and I intend to have my children remain there or do better. I'm not so naive to believe that the lack of intimacy in my marriage hasn't affected my boys. I do worry about it, but I think the alternative is worse in my particular case. It's a judgement call that I've pondered endlessly. Does my f'd up childhood experience factor into my decision to stick it out? Absolutely, in my mind leaving my boys as the result of a divorce is equal to the abandonment that I experienced. Perhaps not to the degree I experienced, but I couldn't live with myself anyway so its not a choice I would make without infidelity involved. I do understand the "Relationship Modeling" damage that I may be responsible for and can totally relate to "Escalating Neurotic Depression" resulting from a lack of intimacy. I've never seen a better description of it by they way so thanks for that. 

I still think its a bigger failure to let my baggage affect their socio-economic future even if that's not a popular position to take in today's "me first" value system. I believe there's some disfunction in the majority of families and there's no such thing as a perfect marriage. Given those beliefs its hard to justify leaving my family at this time so I can fulfill my intimacy needs. There's no guarantee I will find intimacy anyway. I'm a tough match for sure. Do you know any female Libertarian Atheists who like to ride motorcycles, modify 4X4's, shoot guns and read about Psycological Anthropology? Yeah I didn't think so.....:rofl:


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Enginerd said:


> Perhaps they were mostly correct, but didn't consider the potential socio-economic impact of divorce. I wish raising children was only about developing their heart and soul. I believe there's a practical side that many Americans seem to have forgotten about. Obviously their physical and psychological health is at the top of the parenting pyramid, but I place education and socio-economic opportunity second. *In my case a divorce would eliminate my ability to provide my boys with a college education and would ultimately limit their financial/class mobility.*
> 
> _About 46 percent of students with families making more than $100,000 per year took out student loans, and a majority of students from families making $80,000 or less borrowed to pay for college._
> 
> The only ones who are going to ultimately limit their financial/class mobility is them.


----------



## Enginerd

I knew someone would come back with this. I don't want my sons saddled with debt starting out their lives. Debt = institutional prision to me. For this reason we chose the best state school for my oldest even though he qualified for many UC's and big private institutions. A BS is the minimum requirement for decent employment and I feel responsible to provide that much. He'll pay for his MS and PhD if he pursues them.

Oh and if you think America is still the land of equal opportunity for class mobility then you haven't been looking at the stats. It takes a lot to actually beat the system.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Enginerd said:


> I knew someone would come back with this. I don't want my sons saddled with debt starting out their lives. Debt = institutional prision to me. For this reason we choose the best state school for my oldest even though he qualified for many UC's and big private institutions. A BS is the minimum requirement for decent employment and I feel responsible to provide that much. He'll pay for his MS and PhD if he persues them.


... but that is a completely different argument. You continue to state that the only way your kids can go to college is if you stay in the marriage so that you can pay for it. It simply isn't true.


----------



## Enginerd

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> ... but that is a completely different argument. You continue to state that the only way your kids can go to college is if you stay in the marriage so that you can pay for it. It simply isn't true.


Sorry I didn't clarify. The only way they can go to a decent college and be debt free with a degree is if I stay married. Does that work for you now?? Its about setting them up for success in a challenging world. That's what drives me.


----------



## Lon

Enginerd, using your rationale, why would you sacrifice the sacred spot you hold for your kids future should there be infidelity? if you are sticking it out no matter all other scenarios barring infidelity, for your kids well being, then what difference does an affair make? Your priorities clearly are not about the marriage but rather the family structure. I am certainly not going to judge you badly for doing what you believe is right, but in several posts you've indicated that infidelity is a game changer... Why?


----------



## Enginerd

Lon said:


> Enginerd, using your rationale, why would you sacrifice the sacred spot you hold for your kids future should there be infidelity? if you are sticking it out no matter all other scenarios barring infidelity, for your kids well being, then what difference does an affair make? Your priorities clearly are not about the marriage but rather the family structure. I am certainly not going to judge you badly for doing what you believe is right, but in several posts you've indicated that infidelity is a game changer... Why?


It's a fair question. I will not be cuckholded and won't let my boys see that happen to me. I can accept some intimacy dissappointment and infrequent sex, but not that kind of blatant disprespect. Right now we're both doing our equal parts and if she found a boyfriend that balance would be gone.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Enginerd said:


> It's a fair question. I will not be cuckholded and won't let my boys see that happen to me. I can accept some intimacy dissappointment and infrequent sex, but not that kind of blatant disprespect. Right now we're both doing our equal parts and if she found a boyfriend that balance would be gone.


I don't see how it would be cuckholding, more of an agreement, what do you think your boys would see that is different than what you have right now? You don't tell them or put all your marital problems on them, right? So why would you tell them if one or the other is getting sex outside of the marriage?


----------



## Enginerd

Lon said:


> I don't see how it would be cuckholding, more of an agreement, what do you think your boys would see that is different than what you have right now? You don't tell them or put all your marital problems on them, right? So why would you tell them if one or the other is getting sex outside of the marriage?


No we don't discuss our issues with them and we only argue a couple times a year. If she's having sex with someone else and I'm not then it's a cuckhold situation if I'm aware of it. It would only be an agreement if both of us were having an affair. Anyway we live a very simple life. We're home every night and if one of us was suddenly going out and looking different the kids would know. I suppose I'm OK with staying as long as we are both in the same status.


----------



## Lon

I went back to the beginning of this thread just to recapture the point of the OP's question...

one of my first replies to you was to make life/your marriage whatever you both mutually want it to be. It seems that the mutually agreed sexless path is what you are on, or whatever you'd call it. And so long as you are not leaving your partner in the dark to try to work on it alone I am truly ok with this. From what you say she seems just as resigned as you do about it, not all communication is verbal and you know her better than anyone else so if you know without a doubt that if she isn't trying to fix things from her end, and you are doing the same, then the marriage is exactly as you make it.

My only concern is for it to be a genuine mutually consented to arrangement. If you are resigned and refuse to end the marriage but she is trying to fix it and getting no clues from you, that would be incredibly cruel, using her like that and wasting her life. It would be a major betrayal of trust. I spoke up on this thread to voice my strong disapproval of such a tactic in case that was one the OP or any other commenters plan.


----------



## overlookedromatic

In the same boat... The romance is few and far between... feel like she's just as happy laying on the couch than engaging in romance with me... UNLESS I initiate! Can't offer much but my sympathy... I'll be interested in others thoughts as well... :iagree:


----------



## SurpriseMyself

wilson said:


> As far as the kids know, we have a great marriage. They're not seeing dysfunctional behavior. If we get divorced, I'm not going to tell them that I haven't been happy for X years and have just been waiting to leave. Divorce will be traumatic, but there's ways to make sure the hurt only lasts a short time versus scarring them for life.


I have to correct you on this idea. I've read many studies about the effect of divorce on children. What I discovered is that the kids whose parents are fighting or worse (abuse, etc) come out of divorce the best. They can do as well as kids who are from happy, stable homes.

Two other situations cause kids to NOT fare well following divorce. One is when the parent's divorce itself is bitter, nasty, kids caught in the middle kind of thing. The second is when the kids are blindsided. They never saw divorce coming and so their neat worlds are turned upside down.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

tennisstar said:


> We show them life is miserable and good marriages do not exist.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Simply stated and so true.


----------



## BeachGuy

Lon said:


> I went back to the beginning of this thread just to recapture the point of the OP's question...
> 
> one of my first replies to you was to make life/your marriage whatever you both mutually want it to be. It seems that the mutually agreed sexless path is what you are on, or whatever you'd call it. And so long as you are not leaving your partner in the dark to try to work on it alone I am truly ok with this. From what you say she seems just as resigned as you do about it, not all communication is verbal and you know her better than anyone else so if you know without a doubt that if she isn't trying to fix things from her end, and you are doing the same, then the marriage is exactly as you make it.
> 
> My only concern is for it to be a genuine mutually consented to arrangement. If you are resigned and refuse to end the marriage but she is trying to fix it and getting no clues from you, that would be incredibly cruel, using her like that and wasting her life. It would be a major betrayal of trust. I spoke up on this thread to voice my strong disapproval of such a tactic in case that was one the OP or any other commenters plan.


She is not working on the marriage in any way, shape or form. She has zero interest in sex. Our counselor told me she thinks I have tried everything possible to save this marriage but if my stbx won't get on board, it's beyond saving. One of my friends told me he's never known anyone that tried as hard as I did to save their marriage.

And it is not a mutually agreed sexless path. I don't agree. Never did. She doesn't care about it nor want it nor need it.


----------



## Thor

Enginerd said:


> Sorry I didn't clarify. The only way they can go to a decent college and be debt free with a degree is if I stay married. Does that work for you now?? Its about setting them up for success in a challenging world. That's what drives me.


Both of my daughters are working at least 30 hours per week, and are full time students at the state university. They have no student loans for the state U. They both took loans for their first year at private U and then wised up. They are both much better students now that they are working jobs and feeling some responsibility for their own expenses.

Both daughters are going off to graduate schools next year. One into a doctoral program, one into an MBA program.

My son is on his own for college finances. I simply will not be able to eat when I am forced to retire at age 65 (federal requirement for my job) if I pay for his college. He has known this for a few years.

I paid for his very expensive private school all the way from the start. We have spent more than the cost of a first class university on his education so far.

As a result he has busted his azz to get good grades. He is a senior in high school and currently #1 in his class. He studied his azz off for the standardized tests and scored high enough to qualify for various scholarships. If all else fails, he could get a full ride ROTC scholarship to a good university in an engineering, science, or math program.

Your kids can get a great college education regardless of your income or your payment for their education.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



BeachGuy said:


> She is not working on the marriage in any way, shape or form. She has zero interest in sex. Our counselor told me she thinks I have tried everything possible to save this marriage but if my stbx won't get on board, it's beyond saving. One of my friends told me he's never known anyone that tried as hard as I did to save their marriage.
> 
> And it is not a mutually agreed sexless path. I don't agree. Never did. She doesn't care about it nor want it nor need it.


If you choose to stay in the marriage knowing it will be sexless, then yes it is mutually agreed upon. It would be cruel of her to let you continue trying to fix it if her intent was just to leave anyway, which is why communication is important, even in sexless marriages. Do what you need to do and be honest about it with your spouse, it's not really that complicated.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Thor said:


> Both of my daughters are working at least 30 hours per week, and are full time students at the state university. They have no student loans for the state U. They both took loans for their first year at private U and then wised up. They are both much better students now that they are working jobs and feeling some responsibility for their own expenses.
> 
> Both daughters are going off to graduate schools next year. One into a doctoral program, one into an MBA program.
> 
> My son is on his own for college finances. I simply will not be able to eat when I am forced to retire at age 65 (federal requirement for my job) if I pay for his college. He has known this for a few years.
> 
> I paid for his very expensive private school all the way from the start. We have spent more than the cost of a first class university on his education so far.
> 
> As a result he has busted his azz to get good grades. He is a senior in high school and currently #1 in his class. He studied his azz off for the standardized tests and scored high enough to qualify for various scholarships. If all else fails, he could get a full ride ROTC scholarship to a good university in an engineering, science, or math program.
> 
> Your kids can get a great college education regardless of your income or your payment for their education.


I worked a 30 hour per week job while attending university to avoid student loans too. however it was all too much for me, I was not near at the top of my class, and I needed to work for my basic physiological needs, thus my academic achievement spiralled down and after being on academic probation for two semesters I dropped out before being kicked out. Worst part about it is that from those three years of hard work that literally got me nowhere, I made not one single friend had no social life.

In my case a little support would have gone a long long way to helping me learn to manage my responsibilities in life better and realize some accomplishments.

Enginerd has a valid concern, however my parents had a really good marriage and it got me nowhere. As for my own child, his home was split up when he was 4 and he is actually in a better financial position for his future because of it - my finances are in better shape since I no longer have a spouse that isn't contributing, and draining all the disposable income, and much of the child support payments I send her she puts in an education fund for him, moreso now that her new partner is helping to support her household.

Its just better overall. Yes it is still not ideal, but it is more ideal than a dysfunctional home caused by a spouse that didn't want to be there.


----------



## Thor

We do support our daughters a moderate amount. We pay tuition at the state U for them. I pay their car insurance and major things like good tires or important maintenance (timing belt replacement) because it is important to me. They pay for most of their living expenses and all of their play expenses.

The experience has made both of them appreciate money and appreciate what college is. Yes they get to go out and play, but they have skin in the game when it comes to college, so they don't want to waste the opportunity to learn or to get good grades.

Both of my daughters were shocked at how many of their private university peers viewed college as Party Time. Their parents were paying for school, plus some of them took out loans. When someone else is paying the bills, the kids have no motivation to be responsible. These private schools cost more than $50k per year!

Interestingly, most wealthy people come from lower economic status families. Many were on their own after graduating high school. They learned something valuable which the party kids from rich families seem to miss.


----------



## wilson

ebp123 said:


> Two other situations cause kids to NOT fare well following divorce. One is when the parent's divorce itself is bitter, nasty, kids caught in the middle kind of thing. The second is when the kids are blindsided. They never saw divorce coming and so their neat worlds are turned upside down.


I agree with this. It will turn their world upside down. However, I'm not going to start fights with my wife just so the kids can see us fighting and better handle a divorce. The current situation is that the kids are happy and a divorce is highly likely. It's just a matter of when.

The choice is when to drop the bomb. No matter when we get divorced, it will be traumatic. As I said earlier, the kids likely have no clue. So the choice is to blindside them now or blindside them later. By waiting until they are more mature, they will be better able to handle the situation. That doesn't mean it won't still hurt them, but at least they'll be able to handle the hurt in a more mature way and it will have a much smaller long-term emotional impact.

Even forgetting about the trauma of divorce, there's so much more hassle in dealing with a split family. The kids miss one parent 50% of the time and the other parent is stressed since they are the only one to make dinner, clean up, give rides, help with homework, etc. And then there's the financial aspect of supporting two households, which means there's less money for the kids (vacations, college, car, etc).


----------



## Enginerd

Thor said:


> We do support our daughters a moderate amount. We pay tuition at the state U for them. I pay their car insurance and major things like good tires or important maintenance (timing belt replacement) because it is important to me. They pay for most of their living expenses and all of their play expenses.
> 
> The experience has made both of them appreciate money and appreciate what college is. Yes they get to go out and play, but they have skin in the game when it comes to college, so they don't want to waste the opportunity to learn or to get good grades.
> 
> Both of my daughters were shocked at how many of their private university peers viewed college as Party Time. Their parents were paying for school, plus some of them took out loans. When someone else is paying the bills, the kids have no motivation to be responsible. These private schools cost more than $50k per year!
> 
> Interestingly, most wealthy people come from lower economic status families. Many were on their own after graduating high school. They learned something valuable which the party kids from rich families seem to miss.



I pay state tuition and rent for my son. He works as a math tutor at his school and pays for his other expenses. He's a standout in science/math. I had to work full time through college and it limited my ability to retain some of the material. Perhaps I wasn't focused enough or had some bad habits. I want my son to have a chance at something bigger then a standard 9-5 cube and I don't want him distracted just yet. He's a researcher type. He hasn't abused his privilege so far so I'm still all in. He's a cheap SOB who isn't into material things and I love that about him. Both my sons know that my dollars come with the expectation for them to actually achieve a degree of their choice (within reason- no unmarketable degrees). I didn't pay for private schools while they were growing up. Instead I purposely moved to areas with exceptional public schools even if it meant renting. This way they have always been surrounded by people with similar goals and expectations.


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## Fordsvt

I'm in the process of maybe separating. I'd stay for the kids to works on things for sure. We don't fight yell or scream at each other. But she wants out in June when or iff we sell the house. I'd stay and try yes, but not if it was a constant war.


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## Jung_admirer

Enginerd said:


> I pay state tuition and rent for my son. He works as a math tutor at his school and pays for his other expenses. He's a standout in science/math. *I had to work full time through college and it limited my ability to retain some of the material. Perhaps I wasn't focused enough or had some bad habits. I want my son to have a chance at something bigger then a standard 9-5 cube and I don't want him distracted just yet.* He's a researcher type. He hasn't abused his privilege so far so I'm still all in. He's a cheap SOB who isn't into material things and I love that about him. Both my sons know that my dollars come with the expectation for them to actually achieve a degree of their choice (within reason- no unmarketable degrees). I didn't pay for private schools while they were growing up. Instead I purposely moved to areas with exceptional public schools even if it meant renting. This way they have always been surrounded by people with similar goals and expectations.


<whisper> You have large and noble plans for your sons to succeed on your terms. I just hope your sons define that success in a similar manner. Kindest Regards-


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## Enginerd

Jung_admirer said:


> <whisper> You have large and noble plans for your sons to succeed on your terms. I just hope your sons define that success in a similar manner. Kindest Regards-


I hope so too, but I understand that things don't go as planned in the real world. We have already made adjustments such as a sophmore year major change and involuntary elimination from a sports team. I set lofty goals and hope they achieve them, but if they don't I will still support them 100%. It's called raising the bar and its not an easy job, but I'm the only one who will do it for them. I've taken my lumps because of it but I believe its necessary.


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## Jung_admirer

Enginerd said:


> I hope so too, but I understand that things don't go as planned in the real world. We have already made adjustments such as a sophmore year major change and involuntary elimination from a sports team. I set lofty goals and hope they achieve them, but if they don't I will still support them 100%. It's called* raising the bar* and its not an easy job, but I'm the only one who will do it *for them*. I've taken my lumps because of it but I believe its necessary.


As long as you know when it's time to step away from the bar.


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## Enginerd

Jung_admirer said:


> As long as you know when it's time to step away from the bar.


Your input is on target. I didn't at first, but I have learned my limits (aka my lumps). I advise them to choose subjects, sports and activities that they are interested in, but required them to participate if they are capable. My oldest is an adult now so my approach is to be an advisor. Basically I tell them that life is about choices. If you have more choices then you'll have a better life. The only way to have more choices is the make the right choices at an early age. If later in life you want to change your course you can do that much easier from a postion of strength (IE with a degree + income). I want them to be happy but not a slave to corporate America like me....


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## Thor

Jung_admirer said:


> <whisper> You have large and noble plans for your sons to succeed on your terms. I just hope your sons define that success in a similar manner. Kindest Regards-


The best advice I ever heard for a man was to live one's life as if your father were already dead.


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## Enginerd

Thor said:


> The best advice I ever heard for a man was to live one's life as if your father were already dead.


That's funny. My father was dead so I had no choice but to do as you say. I accept that I had been over compensating for that fact and have backed way off in the last 5 years. It's a delicate balance for sure. In the end I think they have to know you love them unconditionally and the rest is just noise.


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## Jung_admirer

Enginerd said:


> That's funny. My father was dead so I had no choice but to do as you say. I accept that I had been over compensating for that fact and have backed way off in the last 5 years. It's a delicate balance for sure. In the end I think they have to know you love them unconditionally and the rest is just noise.


Did you ever see the movie, "The Preacher's Wife"?
The Preacher's Wife (1996) - IMDb

In the movie, the angel Dudley cracks open the angel's handbook and quotes one of God's rules for angels ... "*I can do nothing for you that you should be doing for yourself*".

My thoughts are this is a great way for parents to show appropriate respect & restraint in unconditionally loving their children. Kindest Regards-


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## Enginerd

Jung_admirer said:


> Did you ever see the movie, "The Preacher's Wife"?
> The Preacher's Wife (1996) - IMDb
> 
> In the movie, the angel Dudley cracks open the angel's handbook and quotes one of God's rules for angels ... "*I can do nothing for you that you should be doing for yourself*".
> 
> My thoughts are this is a great way for parents to show appropriate respect & restraint in unconditionally loving their children. Kindest Regards-



I think I saw it but frankly it was during a time when my emotional intelligence was lacking so I probably missed the life lesson it offered. Raising my sons has caused me to reflect and awaken to my many faults. Restraint is now the primary theme to my parenting approach and it has improved my relationship with my sons. I still think I need to enable their goals when I can but I no longer expect a return on my investment. I appreciate your input.

Peace


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## Mike_O

Good thread - thanks for the thoughtful posts!


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## CaptainLOTO

This is an awesome thread. My takeaway is that every situation is different and that whether to stay married is a very individual choice.

I don't even think my therapist or our MC could help me make an informed choice because even though I share EVERYTHING with them, it's still only a summary of everything that happens in my life.

I posted on another website all the "mis-deeds" my wife has done and how frustrated & hurt I've been by her. I also tried to articulate where I've gone wrong. At times, it feels like I'd be better off if I were to call it quits. Then there are those times when we're lying in bed together, or laughing and enjoying something and I think, "why would I ever give this up?"

The "core" question for the OP seems to be "Is it better for the kids for us to stay married?

I'd respond with the following:
1. The marriage you have is the paradigm (fundamental understanding of what its like to be married) your kids will grow up with. Is that what you want for them?

2. Even if the "surface stuff" that the kids see is positive, understand kids absorb EVERYTHING. So, if you're just putting on a show for the kids, realize that they are likely seeing right through it and that you're teaching them that self-delusion and deceit are "The way marriages work." Again, is that what you want them to grow up believing?

All that said, if you have a generally positively functioning relationship and can have a positive mental outlook despite any shortcomings in your married life, then yes a two parent, cooperative and loving household is probably best for the kids. The key is that the positive outlook needs to be REAL and GENUINE, not just putting up a brave face and gutting it out until they are adults.

I'll just say, I'm in the same boat and its tough to weigh all the pro's and con's.


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## DaytoDay

I'm curious about the belief that kids absorb everything about the relationship that their parents have and then replicate it in their own. I suspect that would be true in situations where the child watches the father physically abuse the mother, because then they grow up thinking that behavior is normal. But outside of something as obvious as that, what do you remember picking up from your parents' M? I'm asking because, frankly, I don't remember much of anything. Sure I witnessed my parents fight sometimes, but I don't think that's the reason I sometimes fight in my M now. 

But beyond that, I couldn't tell you much about my parents' M growing up. Teenagers especially are so self-absorbed, I'm surprised they even acknowledge that their parents exist. When I got M'd, I had formulated my own ideas about what M was supposed to look like, and what I imagined/planned/hoped for was nothing like theirs was, especially as I can look back upon theirs now. And it wasn't because I was going to "have a better M than them." It was more a matter of not relating to the two of them in a romantic way, sort of like the idea of your parents having sex. Eww!

So as long as there's not physical abuse or constant fighting and yelling, if the parents are going about their individual lives working, paying bills, enjoying friends and hobbies and activities, what is so wrong about the kids seeing that? Especially if it provides the advantages of living in one home, having both parents readily available, not suffering the financial ruin, not dealing with new step-parents/step-siblings, etc.


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## Thor

I think the evidence is overwhelming that kids will tend to model their adult lives on what they observe as children, to include what they believe a normal marriage looks like.

For some people, they observe the bad and decide they will do the opposite. For other people they observe the good and decide they will do the same. For most of us, though, I think we unconsciously build a set of guidelines, beliefs, and goals based on what we see.

We observe our parents in a sterile generally polite relationship and absorb it as an ok way for married people to behave. We don't see much detail in other families, so we only really know our own while we are growing up. If we see one parent put up with a cheater, we may grow to believe it is normal for adults to cheat, or perhaps we grow to believe the BS should put up with it.

I see it in my marriage and in other family members where we have made many of the same mistakes our parents made and where the style of the marriages is similar to the parents' marriages.


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## Lon

I find that with my son with me only half the time that there is a lot about me he won't see. He doesn't see my worst behaviors, he only sees me in dad mode, because a lot of things about me only happen when I'm in divorced and not responsible for his daily needs. I think this is certainly a detriment, because he will have a harder time understanding the whole picture. But while he might not "know" what is happening around him, he still senses it, and our mind are very good at putting together a model of the world around us.

The best thing for your kids, whether the family home stays intact vs splits apart due to separation, is to communicate with your children, in person, as much as you can and to continue providing the love and support you have always given them (and that isn't dependent on marital status in any way).


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## moco82

Much of this debate seems to stem from the assumption that both sides in a for-the-kids union are dying for a chance to start another union. That is often simply false. If the relationship is civil and free of abuse, it makes no sense for a partner to give up something that is personally very important (full-time parenting under the same roof) for something personally much less important (the possibility of a new relationship). The assumption that separated partners are automatically happier and thus automatically a better influence on the children is also questionable.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

moco82 said:


> Much of this debate seems to stem from the assumption that both sides in a for-the-kids union are dying for a chance to start another union. That is often simply false. If the relationship is civil and free of abuse, it makes no sense for a partner to give up something that is personally very important (full-time parenting under the same roof) for something personally much less important (the possibility of a new relationship). The assumption that separated partners are automatically happier and thus automatically a better influence on the children is also questionable.


Being happy does not necessarily mean entering into a new relationship. Happiness is very much an individual thing. My marriage is civil and free of abuse. It is sexless but that doesn't mean that if we divorced, I can only be happy if I found a new relationship. My wife and I differ greatly on how we like to live our life. Our financial priorities are different. Really the only priority we have in common is our kids. If we were on the same page on most things and only lacked intimacy it might be different but right now it is like putting up with a bad roommate for the sake of the rent (children).

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Feeling-Lonely

Kids are just an excuse, LEAVE, Kids are not blind they will sense your unhappiness. My parents divorced, couldn't care less, had some issues when I was a teenager but who doesn't. In the end kids just want their parents to be happy, with or without each other. 

p.s. I am female, sorry if it is not my place to comment.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Feeling-Lonely said:


> Kids are just an excuse, LEAVE, Kids are not blind they will sense your unhappiness. My parents divorced, couldn't care less, had some issues when I was a teenager but who doesn't. In the end kids just want their parents to be happy, with or without each other.
> 
> p.s. I am female, sorry if it is not my place to comment.


You have every right to comment.

Kids can be an excuse but it is a real issue for many people. Some of it is even selfish ... I get as much out of my relationship with them as they do with me. Especially for fathers who might not get equal time with them as the result of a divorce ... you could be reduced to seeing them only every other weekend and on wednesday nights. I love my daughters more than anything and to suddenly not be there daily ... that is not a thought that is easy to accept.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Thor

Fathers worry about new male friends of the exW molesting the children. It was a major consideration for me. The incidence of step fathers molesting or raping step daughters is worrisome.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Thor said:


> Fathers worry about new male friends of the exW molesting the children. It was a major consideration for me. The incidence of step fathers molesting or raping step daughters is worrisome.


For some reason that would be a minor concern of mine. I do believe my wife would be very careful about who she picked and wouldn't introduce anybody too soon. It's not that you can know for sure but it is certainly better than the revolving door of men I see some divorced women expose their children to.

My biggest concern as far as that goes is that if the arrangements are not equal then some other man would be in a position to have a greater influence over my children than I do. Any way you slice it, I will lose some control over that. Am I willing to deal with the potential negative consequences of that just because I'm unhappy in my marriage?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## ElCanario

Thor said:


> Fathers worry about new male friends of the exW molesting the children. It was a major consideration for me. The incidence of step fathers molesting or raping step daughters is worrisome.


Or the stepfather physically or verbally abusing the boys. Thankfully that is not a problem for me, but I have already told her she can't bring men around the kids.


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## BeachGuy

ElCanario said:


> Or the stepfather physically or verbally abusing the boys. Thankfully that is not a problem for me, but I have already told her she can't bring men around the kids.


Who's going to stop her from bringing other men around the kids? If you're divorced, you really have little say-so unless she's doing something harmful that you can prove in court.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

BeachGuy said:


> Who's going to stop her from bringing other men around the kids? If you're divorced, you really have little say-so unless she's doing something harmful that you can prove in court.


I have heard of some people making that part of the divorce agreement with a time limit. I don't know how valid it is.


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## ElCanario

BeachGuy said:


> Who's going to stop her from bringing other men around the kids? If you're divorced, you really have little say-so unless she's doing something harmful that you can prove in court.


What makes you think I won't roll up to any of her paramours and have a little conversation with them?


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## tilting

For men who made this decision. Did you guys tell your SO that you had made the decision to leave or did you only divulge it at the actual time of starting the separation process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer

tilting said:


> For men who made this decision. Did you guys tell your SO that you had made the decision to leave or did you only divulge it at the actual time of starting the separation process.


I did in a backhanded non-direct way. Back after a false R with my adulterous wife and after I decided to stick it out, during our fights she’d use that argument “Well if I’m so awful, why then are you staying!?” To which I consistently answered “Do you always think everything is about you!? I’m not staying for you. You might take this opportunity to change so that maybe you are the reason before I run out of excuses for staying...” 

So whether or not they tell you, it isn’t a bad thing at all to go ahead and try to earn a place by their side without relying on their sense of duty and their vow. Personally, I think there is too much reliance on your ring instead of your actions towards your spouse to keep them. You have time to change and every advantage here. They loved you once, just as you were... start questioning the changes you did to yourself. (This applies to both btw)


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## ringyou57

After 37 years Ive had enough... Our daughter graduates from high school this June, I am leaving this summer... Feel like I have no other option... Wife is more than 100 lbs over weight and she dont care enough about herself or our relationship... Sex life has been almost nonexistant for the last 5 yrs... HAD ENOUGH!!!


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## Thor

tilting said:


> For men who made this decision. Did you guys tell your SO that you had made the decision to leave or did you only divulge it at the actual time of starting the separation process.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife made the decision without telling me. Our youngest had about 5 or 6 yrs left before graduating high school. I reached my breaking point about halfway into that time period and after a confrontation she seemed to come back to the marriage. She told me specifically during that confrontation that she had made the decision and she had stopped wearing her rings as a result.

Had I not confronted, she would have executed her plan without me knowing in advance.


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## ringyou57

I would like to know "why" it is always the guys fault??? Hes not being supportive enough... Hes not being caring enough... Hes also not suppose to be in a one way relationship... Seems like as women get older they desire to be "LARGE AND INCHARGE"...
I was looking forward to enjoying the golden years... Had Enough!!!


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## tacoma

ElCanario said:


> What makes you think I won't roll up to any of her paramours and have a little conversation with them?


What makes you think they'd give a damn?

I wouldn't.

You might get your ass kicked.


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## moco82

Racer said:


> Back after a false R with my adulterous wife and after I decided to stick it out, during our fights she’d use that argument “Well if I’m so awful, why then are you staying!?” To which I consistently answered “Do you always think everything is about you!? I’m not staying for you. You might take this opportunity to change so that maybe you are the reason before I run out of excuses for staying...”


It seems like having a degree of confrontation helps distill people's coordinates. If the relationship is tranquil and conflict-free, its eventual demise might come out of nowhere for the content party.


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## ElCanario

tacoma said:


> What makes you think they'd give a damn?
> 
> I wouldn't.
> 
> You might get your ass kicked.


I might. But that ain't gonna stop me. 

Do you really think I have any fear of getting my ass kicked? When my children are involved? Do you think I have any fear of anything?

Neither you nor any "him" know what you're dealing with.Think about that shyt.

Talk that junk to someone who gives a damn.

You trying to [email protected]@@ some married or separated woman or something?


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## Lyris

Why would any of us think anything about you? How would we know anything about your level of fear? You're an anonymous stranger on an Internet forum with 40 posts.

Dial the aggression down. It's not impressive or intimidating.


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## ElCanario

Lyris said:


> Why would any of us think anything about you? How would we know anything about your level of fear? You're an anonymous stranger on an Internet forum with 40 posts.
> 
> Dial the aggression down. It's not impressive or intimidating.


I did not mean to sound either way. But I am in a precarious, high -stress situation, and I didn't like what he said to me. I hope you understand. If you don't that's fine too.

Maybe you should comment about the post that I responded to?


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## SurpriseMyself

Emerald said:


> I think parents have a responsibility to their children to provide them with a safe & happy childhood. If this means denying our own marital happiness, then so be it. I was miserable in my marriage but didn't let my children know it because it was not their problem nor burden. They of course knew that the marriage wasn't great but never once wanted us to divorce. Their friends whose parents divorced were sad & stressed over the divorce. New homes, new step-parents, holiday conflicts, financial problems, different home rules & the list goes on. Raising children is hard enough w/o the complications & changes that come with a divorce.


My mother did this. She married at 21, had her first child at 23, and her last child at 37. A month after the last child left the home, she and my dad separated, but ended up getting back together. By this time she was 55. Fast forward 10 years and she develops Alzheimer's disease. 

She had many unfulfilled hopes and dreams. I know because I have letters she had written to my dad, letters where she expressed how much she needed him to care, to be involved in their lives. I have the list of belongings that she drew up and how they would be divided between them. 

When I was about 25, my mother confided in me that she feels like she is just killing time waiting to die. I didn't know what to say! By then both my parents were retired and leaving was not a viable option financially. She was utterly and completely stuck.

My mother died this past April. Her unfulfilled life and those letters haunt me. My mother was an amazing woman: very smart, talented, beautiful, graceful, kind, selfless. She deserved so much better!

And my father is no happier. Living alone, he barely goes out of the house. He wouldn't even come to Christmas dinner this year. He sits at home alone feeling guilt, shame, etc. 

And the kids... there are 4 of us. Two are on the verge of divorce and two are unmarried. 

So, staying together for the kids might be the answer for some, but it devastated our family. And there was no fighting, no infidelity. Just soul-crushing emptiness.


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## SurpriseMyself

Enginerd said:


> There's no guarantee I will find intimacy anyway. I'm a tough match for sure. Do you know any female Libertarian Atheists who like to ride motorcycles, modify 4X4's, shoot guns and read about Psycological Anthropology? Yeah I didn't think so.....:rofl:


Why would anyone think this way?

Let me try this: Does anyone know of any male Liberal Spiritualists who like to cook, read classic fiction, shop, pinch pennies, and decorate their home? No? Oh, well. Guess there's no good men out there!


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## Thor

Enginerd said:


> Do you know any female Libertarian Atheists who like to ride motorcycles, modify 4X4's, shoot guns and read about Psycological Anthropology? Yeah I didn't think so.....:rofl:


Just saw this...

There's this young lady, about 30 yrs old now, who shows up at our IDPA matches once in a while. She shoots her late father's 1911, and she shoots it well. She wears Carhartt jeans, and wears them very well indeed!

Out this way I think you'd find quite a few women who meet your criteria. As my uncle used to say, if you want to be a cowboy you've got to go where the cows are.


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## SurpriseMyself

DaytoDay said:


> I'm curious about the belief that kids absorb everything about the relationship that their parents have and then replicate it in their own. I suspect that would be true in situations where the child watches the father physically abuse the mother, because then they grow up thinking that behavior is normal. But outside of something as obvious as that, what do you remember picking up from your parents' M? I'm asking because, frankly, I don't remember much of anything. Sure I witnessed my parents fight sometimes, but I don't think that's the reason I sometimes fight in my M now.
> 
> But beyond that, I couldn't tell you much about my parents' M growing up. Teenagers especially are so self-absorbed, I'm surprised they even acknowledge that their parents exist. When I got M'd, I had formulated my own ideas about what M was supposed to look like, and what I imagined/planned/hoped for was nothing like theirs was, especially as I can look back upon theirs now. And it wasn't because I was going to "have a better M than them." It was more a matter of not relating to the two of them in a romantic way, sort of like the idea of your parents having sex. Eww!
> 
> So as long as there's not physical abuse or constant fighting and yelling, if the parents are going about their individual lives working, paying bills, enjoying friends and hobbies and activities, what is so wrong about the kids seeing that? Especially if it provides the advantages of living in one home, having both parents readily available, not suffering the financial ruin, not dealing with new step-parents/step-siblings, etc.


My mother was unhappy, but put on a great front for the kids. She never complained, never showed that she was unhappy. She was grace under pressure.

But guess what.... I knew something was terribly wrong. I remember being 7 years old and crying in my room by myself. I knew something was wrong but I couldn't identify what it was. I didn't know why I was crying, but I would just go into my room and sob.

There was no abuse, no yelling, very little disagreements at all. My mother just kept her mouth shut about anything she might have been unhappy about.

When I was a teenager, I found boys. I wanted to feel special (since my father didn't seem to care a flip about any of his kids unless we were messing up and making him look bad). So I did things sexually at way too early of an age. I didn't respect myself or my body because I just wanted a man to be interested in me. I have paid the price of these decisions in many ways. My oldest sister did this, too. One brother drank; the other got into pot and cocaine in high school. What a mess our family was... but there was no fighting. There was also no love between my parents. 

So yes, a bad marriage affects everyone even if there's no outright abuse or fighting to be seen.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Thor said:


> Just saw this...
> 
> There's this young lady, about 30 yrs old now, who shows up at our IDPA matches once in a while. She shoots her late father's 1911, and she shoots it well. She wears Carhartt jeans, and wears them very well indeed!
> 
> Out this way I think you'd find quite a few women who meet your criteria. As my uncle used to say, if you want to be a cowboy you've got to go where the cows are.


Not to be awful, but would someone who self identifies as an engineering nerd (a.k.a. enginerd) actually be able to land such a woman?

I think many men make the kind of statements Enginerd made because it's easier to make excuses about "no good women out there" than acutally getting out there.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Lon said:


> I disagree, my parents had a good relationship (or atleast have convinced me it was) not always rosey, many issues they faced, like all relationships. However if they had suddenly pulled the plug when I was around 20ish I am pretty sure it would have traumatized me and left me feeling disillusioned about everything in life.


Just to offer a different perspective....

One month into my freshmen year of college my parents told me they were separating. I was glad. I wanted my mom to be happy and she had not been for some time.

By Christmas my parents were back together and the separation was never spoken of again. It still saddens me that my parents didn't divorce. I wanted my mother to have a chance to live the life she wanted. To travel, to explore, to try new things, to be supported by her spouse. She never got that.

And this isn't speculation - I have her letters to prove it.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



ebp123 said:


> Just to offer a different perspective....
> 
> One month into my freshmen year of college my parents told me they were separating. I was glad. I wanted my mom to be happy and she had not been for some time.
> 
> By Christmas my parents were back together and the separation was never spoken of again. It still saddens me that my parents didn't divorce. I wanted my mother to have a chance to live the life she wanted. To travel, to explore, to try new things, to be supported by her spouse. She never got that.
> 
> And this isn't speculation - I have her letters to prove it.


The difference is you knew (somewhere in your heart and mind) by the time you were 7 years old and sobbing in your room that your parents didn't have a happy marriage. You grieved the loss of their joy back then. I never sensed any loss when i was a child, and still have never wanted to see them separate... Even though the marriage my parents have is not some storybook marriage, it remains truly special because that is still how my parents choose to view their marriage.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Lon said:


> The difference is you knew (somewhere in your heart and mind) by the time you were 7 years old and sobbing in your room that your parents didn't have a happy marriage. You grieved the loss of their joy back then. I never sensed any loss when i was a child, and still have never wanted to see them separate... Even though the marriage my parents have is not some storybook marriage, it remains truly special because that is still how my parents choose to view their marriage.


My point, again is that there doesn't need to be shouting matches, abuse, or any overt problems in order for a loveless marriage to damage the children. 

I'm not sure I see your point. Your parents were married, had their ups and downs, but it is a special marriage and therefore happy. Great. 

But if your marriage isn't that way, what do you do? Just pretend to be happy? Fake it for the sake of the kids? That's what my parents did and it didn't work.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



ebp123 said:


> My point, again is that there doesn't need to be shouting matches, abuse, or any overt problems in order for a loveless marriage to damage the children.
> 
> I'm not sure I see your point. Your parents were married, had their ups and downs, but it is a special marriage and therefore happy. Great.
> 
> But if your marriage isn't that way, what do you do? Just pretend to be happy? Fake it for the sake of the kids? That's what my parents did and it didn't work.


My point, iirc, was that i always thought that my parents marriage was strong, but if I had found out later in my life that it was all a lie, that my parents didn't want to be together but stuck it out until i moved away, i would feel shock, anger and extreme guilt. I believe that sticking it out until some sort of significant milestone not only creates misery, but is very destructive to your dependent's self-esteem and trust in things. More destructive then two separate families that each would then have a chance to function effectively.

So I'm pretty sure we agree?


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## SurpriseMyself

Lon said:


> So I'm pretty sure we agree?


"Oh! I see!" said the blind man as he ran into the tree. 

Yep, we agree. Just didn't understand before; thought you were saying that if all was well (for real, not just on the surface) and then they suddenly divorced... anyway...


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## moco82

If the parents don't love each other, kids will end up doing drugs. Got it.


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## wilson

I can't remember.. Have there been any replies from people whose parents got divorced when they were kids even though they thought the marriage was fine? That is, there wasn't fighting or anything terrible. Just one day the parents said they were getting a divorce out of the blue. I'd be interested in hearing their perspective and which environment they preferred (pre or post divorce family).

I wish the OP had put some sort of qualification on the length of time. I think there's a huge difference between staying until the kids move out and staying together until you die. If the kids are grown up and you can't find happiness with your spouse, it's fine to move on.


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## RoyR

I did it and I have a good relationship with my daughter, she lives with my ex. I have full custody of my son, he has Asperger's disorder.

I think its fair to say I'm permanently scarred and embittered from this experience. Wife walked away with a huge amount of my net worth she did not earn, and the " system " allowed her to screw me over.
No way I'd do it over again, HUGE mistake. Marriage is not about commitment for women, they can walk away any time, and get a check. Exactly the opposite for men, but young men still continue to bow to pressure both societal and peers, and make this huge mistake.

My biggest wonder is why there isn't more violence as a result of marriages gone bad.


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## treyvion

RoyR said:


> I did it and I have a good relationship with my daughter, she lives with my ex. I have full custody of my son, he has Asperger's disorder.
> 
> I think its fair to say I'm permanently scarred and embittered from this experience. Wife walked away with a huge amount of my net worth she did not earn, and the " system " allowed her to screw me over.
> No way I'd do it over again, HUGE mistake. Marriage is not about commitment for women, they can walk away any time, and get a check. Exactly the opposite for men, but young men still continue to bow to pressure both societal and peers, and make this huge mistake.


The "system" gets you out of alot more than money. Boys need to be educated about it and how to make better choices than us for mates.



RoyR said:


> My biggest wonder is why there isn't more violence as a result of marriages gone bad.


Man... It's not even necessary. As you reach guru levels of heights of TAM'dom... Your spouse indicates that they want to leave or open the relationship...

Through your infinite kindness you help them... "Here let me go help you start to pack your stuff"...


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## COGypsy

wilson said:


> I can't remember.. Have there been any replies from people whose parents got divorced when they were kids even though they thought the marriage was fine? That is, there wasn't fighting or anything terrible. Just one day the parents said they were getting a divorce out of the blue. I'd be interested in hearing their perspective and which environment they preferred (pre or post divorce family).


I haven't replied, but my parents divorced when I was at the end of middle school. It's only been in the last few years that I've gotten any idea why they divorced. I don't remember any fights or slamming doors or drama like that. At the same time, I don't have any real memories of them even speaking to each other and certainly no memory of any affection between them while I was growing up. They kept all of their differences between them. Divorce was a surprise to say the least.

I don't know which I would have preferred for the long term. I mean, my life was my life. The timing of the divorce too makes it seem in my head like as a "kid" our family was one way and when I got "big" (haha....the "adultness" of high school!) my family was different and would have been no matter what.

I think what I would have wanted was transparency. Age-appropriate, of course, but over the last few years it has been extremely interesting to see the parallels between my parents' marriage and my marriage. Poor communication, lack of affection, no sex. I managed to replicate nearly every problem in their marriage except for having children to factor into the equation. I thank heavens every day I don't have to deal with kids in my life, but I'm especially grateful that I don't have that kind of eternal bond to my ex.


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## DarkHoly

If your wife isn't willing to satisfy your needs you should leave. You can blame her for being a terrible wife (which she is) but you can't blame her for your unwillingness to leave.


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## RoyR

Divorce rate would SKYROCKET TOMORROW if a new law were passed allowing men to leave marriages WITHOUT PAYING.

That won't happen...
Go out and circulate around a bit in the 40+ male married crowd. WHOLE LOT of unhappiness and despair. But they are all in a financial trap 'cause you OWE HER for whatever time she stayed home with the kids.
Its even become part of our pop culture, who hasn't heard " Happy wife, happy life..." That is pure emotional slavery, and vast majority of women are absolutely fine with it....

Take a look at commercials on TV, how often do you see a dumbass white male husband ? AND THAT IS A CORRECT REFLECTION OF REALITY.
White males trapped in rotten marriages MUST pay a ton of money to get out. Getting into that situation in the first place means you are pretty stupid.


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## Trickster

BeachGuy said:


> Which brings back the question of how will the kids feel as adults when they understand you stayed (unhappily) "for them"? Major guilt trip for them.


I hear people say this a lot...I would rather not D because of our daughter... Not necessarily because I don't want her to hurt, but because I don't want to spend time without her...

My wife and I do get along and after my 180, things are better...there is just no love...sex is better than ever before...

We don't want to D because neither one of want to be without our daughter.

My wife has other reasons as well.….she is jobless and After being a SAHM for a long time, I feel obligated to wait a while longer until she becomes self sufficient...

So we have an open marriage arrangement... Haven't acted on it yet.The option is there though...maybe that alone has helped our sex life...the fear of me finding another women to replace her...
Our daughter would be hurt because she doesn't see anything wrong.


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## Kaboom

RoyR said:


> Divorce rate would SKYROCKET TOMORROW if a new law were passed allowing men to leave marriages WITHOUT PAYING.


Dare to dream!



> That won't happen...
> Go out and circulate around a bit in the 40+ male married crowd. WHOLE LOT of unhappiness and despair. But they are all in a financial trap 'cause you OWE HER for whatever time she stayed home with the kids.
> Its even become part of our pop culture, who hasn't heard " Happy wife, happy life..." That is pure emotional slavery, and vast majority of women are absolutely fine with it....


Yes, and what about those wives who worked FT just like us, yet earned much less.. as in my case. I do more for the kid, I make more, I contribute more on every level, yet she still gets to walk away with everything, leaving me punished for making the big mistake of getting married.



> Getting into that situation in the first place means you are pretty stupid.


Not when you have been taught your whole life by everyone and every institution that it's pretty much the order of life. 

Much like the 'white picket fence' , american dream, whatever you want to call it.. Go work hard and you will be successful. All BS lies. I've lived the american dream, and it's left me emotionally scarred and cynical on the best day.


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## ElCanario

RoyR said:


> Divorce rate would SKYROCKET TOMORROW if a new law were passed allowing men to leave marriages WITHOUT PAYING.
> 
> That won't happen...
> Go out and circulate around a bit in the 40+ male married crowd. WHOLE LOT of unhappiness and despair. But they are all in a financial trap 'cause you OWE HER for whatever time she stayed home with the kids.
> Its even become part of our pop culture, who hasn't heard " Happy wife, happy life..." That is pure emotional slavery, and vast majority of women are absolutely fine with it....
> 
> Take a look at commercials on TV, how often do you see a dumbass white male husband ? AND THAT IS A CORRECT REFLECTION OF REALITY.
> *White males trapped in rotten marriages MUST pay a ton of money to get out.* Getting into that situation in the first place means you are pretty stupid.


That's not limited to white males............Why do you see whites as the only ones who might be unhappy?


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## RoyR

I still feel I was stupid to get into this mess...I can't believe I bought into the whole American Dream white picket fence 2 kids and a dog BS.

And I really can't believe how many women TO THIS DAY still insist the legal system is fair for everyone. I can't believe how many younger men are falling into the same trap. I'm still pissed my Dad didn't at least WARN me about women ?? WTF ??

How the heck did it become the cultural NORM for white males to sacrifice their WHOLE LIVES to this ridiculous BS ??


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## RoyR

'cause I know and interact with a lot of black guys who are MUCH more realistic about women / marriage / family. 

As an example, black/Asian/mutt acquaintance said to me yesterday "She ain't so pretty, she'll have to work for a living... "
Being brutally honest about how attractive women live rent free is a positive in my book.

Disclaimer: I really have no idea of my own race, I look white, but now that so many people are getting DNA tests, its become obvious we are all Heinz57 mutts....And that infidelity has always been pretty rampant.


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## DaytoDay

So getting back on topic....

I don't think anyone that stays in a marriage for the kids is necessarily doing so because they believe they're fooling the kids into thinking they have a happy M. So the comments offered up that people (as kids) knew there was something wrong is sort of moot since they obviously would have known there was something wrong too if their parents D'd. There's no argument that a healthy M is the best thing for the kids. The question is whether or not staying together until the kids are on their own is better than getting a D.

Better how and for whom?

I personally believe it's better for everyone to have the parent/child relationship readily available. Parents get to see the child everyday, child gets access to the parents everyday. With D, that is lost, sometimes completely, and there's no way around it. By definition, "visitation" is the "act of visiting." Ask someone whose custodial ex took the kids and moved across the country.

And there's other aspects about D that make it miserable for everyone involved as well. Having to have two sets of everything is expensive. Toting the belongings back and forth between houses is frustrating and exhausting at best, and sometimes downright unmanageable if the two parents live very far apart. There's no doubt D takes a toll on finances. Two houses, two sets of rules. Then throw in one or two step-parents? And escalating conflicts between the bio parents? Alienation of affection?

I've seen it all, and from the perspective of an adult that had the ability to comprehend it and THE FREEDOM TO LEAVE if I had chosen to. The kids in the mix don't have either of those, and are often used as pawns in the worst way.

I don't believe for one second that I'm fooling my son into thinking we have a wonderful M. But I know my H and know how he is and can predict how he will be if I leave while my son is still at home. For all of that and more, I choose to stay until he's on his own.


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## moco82

DaytoDay, does your husband and you have an explicit understanding of your arrangement?


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## Lon

I guess the only answer is that there is no real easy way out. We cannot escape the consequences of selecting the wrong partner to start a family with, it is either choose the hardship of a poor ongoing and unfulfilling marriage in order to be physically available for your kids, the hardship of leaving the marriage and your kids in order to reclaim other priorities you may need to fulfill, or else the hardship of doing the vast heavy lifting in order to improve your situation whichever side of separation you fall on.


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## DaytoDay

moco82, my H and I have spoken very candidly about this. We are both unhappy, both feel the pull of unmet needs, both feel the dedication and devotion to our child. It truly is a mess to be in. So in a sense, we both agree that it's best since we both stay, though it's not written in any contract.

Lon, you're absolutely right in your statement. Your statement though is addressing the dilemma of the adults/parents. The concern is towards what is best for the kids caught in the middle that have no responsibility nor choice in the matter.


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## Trickster

DaytoDay said:


> moco82, my H and I have spoken very candidly about this. We are both unhappy, both feel the pull of unmet needs, both feel the dedication and devotion to our child. It truly is a mess to be in. So in a sense, we both agree that it's best since we both stay, though it's not written in any contract.


 Hey Day-

Your attitude is very similar to ours...we have spoken so many times about our disconnect, resentments, as well as unmet needs. We will make positive changes but they never last long. like you, our main priority is our daughter. we also get along most of the time...the problem is when we have expectations of the other....then we seem to retreat.

like you, my wife doesnt believe she wouldn't be hurt if I had sex with another woman... I think we have both said things to each other that has really hurt...we cant take the words back....no amount of MC will fix that...At this point, she may be wondering why its taking so long to have sex with another woman...

I am out meeting people and its just a matter of time when a woman comes along in a similar situation. There is a woman I am dveloping feelings for and his won't start or end well for any of us...As of now, we have our separat lives. The sex is still there. its just mechanical, but still better than before. I do know when I do have sex with somebody else, sex with my wife will be over...I will just be honest when that happens.

so for the OP...yes, staying married for the kids....for now at least.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



DaytoDay said:


> ...Your statement though is addressing the dilemma of the adults/parents. The concern is towards what is best for the kids caught in the middle that have no responsibility nor choice in the matter.


I disagree, for me and others like me, i don't think it's possible to compartmentalize like that. My statement was in regards to what is best for the household, and all possible scenarios require heavy lifting.


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## spanz

I think men who hold on to a poor marriage for the sake of their children are absolute saints! SOOOO many nowadays do not do that, and I have seen many marriages where the kids suffer greatly when the dad leaves. 

I know a lot want to divorce and get out while the getting is good. I think a real man tries everything in the book to stick it out.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



spanz said:


> I think men who hold on to a poor marriage for the sake of their children are absolute saints! SOOOO many nowadays do not do that, and I have seen many marriages where the kids suffer greatly when the dad leaves.
> 
> I know a lot want to divorce and get out while the getting is good. I think a real man tries everything in the book to stick it out.


What about women who suffer a poor marriage for the belief it is better for the kids, are they saints too?


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## spanz

yep them too. At least until the kids are 18, they really need both parents there....even if they are sleeping in separate bedrooms and both have outside lovers. Meet for dinner, talk with the kids, then .....go play


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## JustSomeGuyWho

spanz said:


> yep them too. At least until the kids are 18, they really need both parents there....even if they are sleeping in separate bedrooms and both have outside lovers. Meet for dinner, talk with the kids, then .....go play


The idea that you stay for the sake of the children but go have sex with people outside of your marriage seems at odds with itself. It is not an example I would want to set for my daughters.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## OhGeesh

Kids aren't that stupid as teenagers to know mom and dad are out boinking others.......that won't work without causing it's own set of problems.

You suck it up and bear it until they are 18 then move on if you choose!!


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## Horizon

Trickster said:


> I hear people say this a lot...I would rather not D because of our daughter... Not necessarily because I don't want her to hurt, but because I don't want to spend time without her...
> 
> My wife and I do get along and after my 180, things are better...there is just no love...sex is better than ever before...
> 
> We don't want to D because neither one of want to be without our daughter.
> 
> My wife has other reasons as well.….she is jobless and After being a SAHM for a long time, I feel obligated to wait a while longer until she becomes self sufficient...
> 
> So we have an open marriage arrangement... Haven't acted on it yet.The option is there though...maybe that alone has helped our sex life...the fear of me finding another women to replace her...
> Our daughter would be hurt because she doesn't see anything wrong.


Hmmm....no love but the sex is better. Try no love and no sex. It's called co-existence - i think.


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## ElCanario

Horizon said:


> Hmmm....no love but the sex is better. Try no love and no sex. It's called co-existence - i think.


It's called being totally miserable.


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## Sammy64

Originally Posted by Horizon "Try no love and no sex. It's called co-existence - i think "

Originally Posted by ElCanario " It's called being totally miserable " 


Also called my life....


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## ScarletBegonias

Lon said:


> What about women who suffer a poor marriage for the belief it is better for the kids, are they saints too?


now Lon,you should know that when women do this it's because they're manipulative users,not saints. shame on you


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## Horizon

ElCanario said:


> It's called being totally miserable.


It's the miserable elephant in the room. Even this morning as she got changed you could have cut the air with a knife. Both of us know there is this terrible divide. All unspoken. 

I'll go further - it has got so bad (keep in mind all hints about sex have long ceased - arguments are rare; sarcasm & cynicism virtually non-existent) that I can now clearly hear the "lines" she throws out to fill the void.

Even shared comfort words, phrases and pet names sound odd. It's as though my BS meter is highly tuned. The unintentional patronising is excruciating and has me feeling guilty that she is coming across so shallow without seeing it.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Horizon said:


> It's the miserable elephant in the room. Even this morning as she got changed you could have cut the air with a knife. Both of us know there is this terrible divide. All unspoken.
> 
> I'll go further - it has got so bad (keep in mind all hints about sex have long ceased - arguments are rare; sarcasm & cynicism virtually non-existent) that I can now clearly hear the "lines" she throws out to fill the void.
> 
> Even shared comfort words, phrases and pet names sound odd. It's as though my BS meter is highly tuned. The unintentional patronising is excruciating and has me feeling guilty that she is coming across so shallow without seeing it.


Do you love her?


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## Horizon

No - first time I've said that with some conviction. It hurts to say it.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Men who decided to stay married until the kids are gone*



Horizon said:


> No - first time I've said that with some conviction. It hurts to say it.


Well atleast you know where she stands in your life and you can prioritize your needs and choices accordingly. Showing her enough basic respect to be truthful with her may yield potential for both of you to move on in the best possible way.


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## ElCanario

Horizon said:


> It's the miserable elephant in the room. Even this morning as she got changed you could have cut the air with a knife. Both of us know there is this terrible divide. All unspoken.
> 
> I'll go further - it has got so bad (keep in mind all hints about sex have long ceased - arguments are rare; sarcasm & cynicism virtually non-existent) that I can now clearly hear the "lines" she throws out to fill the void.


In my case, it's open hostility from her or low-level sullenness and cynicism. There is no affection; she won't sleep in the bedroom, hell, when we go somewhere we have to go, she won't even ride in the car with me.



> Even shared comfort words, phrases and pet names sound odd. It's as though my BS meter is highly tuned. The unintentional patronising is excruciating and has me feeling guilty that she is coming across so shallow without seeing it.


No comfort, no nothing. Just hate and resentment.


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## hookares

The wayward spouse can mask just about any feeling except their disdain for the betrayed. It filters through in spite of their best efforts. The ones that always amaze me are the ones who insist the marriage is worth saving.


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