# Wife Not Interested in Sex Anymore



## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Hi everyone. This is my first time post here, but certainly won't be my last. I'm a 38-yr-old male that's married to a 37-yr-old female (just 5 months difference in age), and we have two children who are 3 and 6. I've been married to my wife for just over 10 years, and we've been to marriage counseling on two separate occasions.

Before we had our first child the sex life was awesome. She was wanting sex all the time, couldn't get enough of it. After the first the sex life started going downhill, but wasn't bad enough to raise concern. After our second child was born, her libido went downhill fast. So much so, that I'm a lucky guy to have sex with her maybe once or twice a month, and recently it's happened just one time in two months. I'm sorry, but I need sex and that physical connection at least once a week. Even during our last round of marriage counseling we agreed to having sex once a week, and although it worked for a while it dwindled to almost never happening.

We've been fighting lately, and I've brought up the fact that it seems she doesn't love me much anymore. I feel unwanted, unloved, forgotten, neglected, not appreciated and not a priority in her life. I told her these things but it doesn't seem to sink in with her. I pulled up notes I wrote while doing the two rounds of marriage counseling, and it seems like a lot of the things I was concerned with are still present...

- not feeling loved by her
- lack of sex
- no desire to do things with me
- friends seem to be more important than me
- she's more responsive to everyone else
- I'm not a priority in her life

The problems she had with me were primarily the following...

- anger management issues
- talking down to her
- controlling

She agreed with me the other day that my anger problems have disappeared. But, she said I still talk down to her and I'm controlling. The "talking down to" is questionable, in a list of say 10 times I talked down to her maybe 3 of them could be considered just that. And controlling? I let her do anything she wants. I've never once said "no" to something she wanted to do.

Anyway...

As I mentioned above, my biggest problem with her is that I don't feel loved anymore. She thinks that all I want from her is sex, which is true but it's not just sex. It's the physical & intimate connection between her and I. She never shows interest in sex. If I pursue it she feels like I'm pressuring her, and all that does is turn her off even more (although I'm not sure how that's possible when it's rare for sex to happen). If I don't pursue I know it will definitely not happen, because she's not going after it. She has no idea what "feeling loved" means. Even the marriage counselor had stated that we should be having sex more often than once a month.

She just started going to a psychologist to help take care of herself, because she's obviously in a fragile state. She's been going to one for a long time now, but only goes when she really needs to. She's told me that I should go see someone for me, because of how depressed I've been lately. I don't need someone. I need my wife. The marriage counseling we once had was great stuff, I learned a lot from those visits. I took a lot of great ideas from them, and they've helped make me a better person. She, on the other hand, hasn't changed much at all. Our last round of counseling was a year ago. I asked her if we could go back, and she says she needs to fix herself & then we can maybe go back to counseling.

Other important things I've recently learned:

- she told me she loves me because I'm the father of our kids
- she fears talking to me because of how I may respond
- I still talk down to her
- I'm still controlling over her
- sex is the LAST thing on her mind
- she needs space from me
- she's confused about the marriage, not sure what she wants anymore

The first one made me cry like a baby. I still think about that every day. After saying that and seeing my reaction, she said she just doesn't love me the same way when we were first married... that she isn't "madly in love with me anymore." 

I want to make this work, and she claims she wants to make it work as well. If she wants space, what exactly does that mean? She won't give me a good answer about that because she says she doesn't know. Obviously she doesn't want sex, so I cannot even approach her about that without pissing her off. If I give her too much distance, I feel like it'll increase the chances of separation or divorce.

Speaking of which...

I told her that it seems like she has been thinking of separation/divorce already, and she didn't say "yes" to that but did say she's thought about what life may be like without me. Right now she needs to fix herself (whatever that entails), and then figure out what she wants from our marriage. That means I have to play the waiting game to see what she uncovers, because I know 100% what I want from the marriage (I want her and I want us to work things out) but she doesn't. 

Right this very second, we want the complete opposite of one another...

me = I want her close to me physically, mentally & spiritually
her = she wants space/distance from me

me = I want to talk about our marriage issues, fix things now
her = she doesn't want to talk, makes her more upset

me = I know what I want
her = she doesn't know what she wants

I feel like I'm not writing everything down that needs to be here, but I'm just so upset about it all. I found this forum by doing a Google search for this type of discussion, read some a few threads, and can immediately tell that there's a great number of truly wonderful people here. Hopefully just getting this out there to people I've never met can help, even if it's just a little bit.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi s0medude~
Thanks for posting! Yah, unfortunately, it seems like you are in good company as this seems to be a big problem in a lot of marriages. That doesn't make it any easier, I know.

I was hoping one of the menfolk would post first, but since not, I'll take a shot.

Some questions for you. It sounds like you and your W have gone through some counselling previously and discovered some issues. As far as the controlling and talking down to that your W complains about, can your W give you specific examples that you can work from, or is it just some vague talk from her?

And, when you say that you never say no to her, why not? Most people (not just women) appreciate and respect people who have personal boundaries, can articulate them, and can enforce them in a calm, competent manner. For women (well okay for me since I shouldn't speak for everybody else), having a man who is confident, authoritative, competent, humorous, and compassionate is very attractive.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi s0medude~
> Thanks for posting! Yah, unfortunately, it seems like you are in good company as this seems to be a big problem in a lot of marriages. That doesn't make it any easier, I know.


You're one of the good folk around here who I've seen posting in lots of threads, so thanks for chiming in on my post. 



Enchantment said:


> As far as the controlling and talking down to that your W complains about, can your W give you specific examples that you can work from, or is it just some vague talk from her?


We both journal anything & everything pertaining to our marriage, and she did give me several examples of when I talk down to her. She listed out about 10 of them to me, and only three were ones where I can agree with her frustration. The other ones were just flat out trivial, nothing that should cause so much grief to any human being (i.e. "please place a coaster under that hot cup of tea (on the nice wood table").



Enchantment said:


> And, when you say that you never say no to her, why not?


I'm confused, where exactly did I say something like that in my OP?

Again, thank you already for your response. Knowing that this is a frequent thing for married couples, albeit not a good one, makes me feel a little bit more at ease.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> I let her do anything she wants. I've never once said "no" to something she wanted to do.


I think this was the bit I was referring to when I mentioned the not saying "no" to her.

As per your post, I can tell that I have been online and commenting too much today! lol 

Anyway, sometimes even the most seemingly trivial things can add up. Some people are more sensitive about these things than others. So, you might think "what's the big deal about the coaster?" while she may see that time after time after time having to remind or reprimand as something you would do with a child (not attractive in a man) or something that indicates you don't care enough about her to do anything about (also not attractive).

I can relate to the coaster thing - used to be that way a long time ago when my H and I were first married. He used to NEVER push in his chair at the kitchen table! Doggone it, that drove me crazy! Silly now, but he really did 'humor' me, and I mean humor. I would remind/reprimand, and he would very eloquently look at me - kind of with a lustful look in his eye, wag his eyebrows, put his hand up in the air, gracefully sweep his hand down and push in the chair, then come over and give me a smooch, and I felt like dirt. I think that the guys on the forum would say that might have been a "fitness test" or "sh!t test". There's some good information over in the Men's Clubhouse that could give you a start on some reading.

Guys, guys from the Men's Clubhouse - special here on aisle 9. Any guys care to comment?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Married Man Sex Life

Just another resource.

Your story sounds very typical.

Remember that "controlling" may be just that you exist as her husband. Your very presence puts pressure on her behavior. 
She may have not asked you if she could do something that she wants to do yet, but assumes you will not like it. I won't speculate further here.

If she asks for space ... watch out.

The I Love You But Not In Love With You is very common. 
That does not mean that it is not a HUGE RED FLAG.

The resources on this site will help you. On the link I posted search for dopamine and oxytocin.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

If women are having lots of good sex with their husband they are less likely to be beating him up over those little things that accumulate. 

Sure it can be a chicken and egg thing but if you are supplying their dopamine and oxytocin most of those other things vaporize.

The Fitness Tests may very well be there but they are more playful to deal with.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> Hi everyone. This is my first time post here, but certainly won't be my last. I'm a 38-yr-old male that's married to a 37-yr-old female (just 5 months difference in age), and we have two children who are 3 and 6. I've been married to my wife for just over 10 years, and we've been to marriage counseling on two separate occasions.
> 
> Before we had our first child the sex life was awesome. She was wanting sex all the time, couldn't get enough of it. After the first the sex life started going downhill, but wasn't bad enough to raise concern. After our second child was born, her libido went downhill fast. So much so, that I'm a lucky guy to have sex with her maybe once or twice a month, and recently it's happened just one time in two months. I'm sorry, but I need sex and that physical connection at least once a week. Even during our last round of marriage counseling we agreed to having sex once a week, and although it worked for a while it dwindled to almost never happening.
> 
> ...


Ok, let me go there. This may have nothing to do with it BUT:

Often when wives want space it means there is a thrid party. meaning they are in an EA or PA.

Why in the world is she thinking about life without you?

The ILYBIANILWY can very much mean there is a third person involved.

Also controlling comes up when there is a thrid party.

I am not indicating that this is likely.

Does she work?

Facebook?

Gym?

Go out much?

High School Reunions?

What does she do with her time beyond being a mother?

What activities do you guys do together period?


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Often when wives want space it means there is a thrid party. meaning they are in an EA or PA.


What is an EA and PA?



Entropy3000 said:


> Why in the world is she thinking about life without you?


 Even she doesn't know, that's the problem. She's clueless as to what she wants, or maybe she already knows what she wants and is just afraid of its reality.



Entropy3000 said:


> The ILYBIANILWY can very much mean there is a third person involved.


 Another acroynymn I'm not familiar with. What does that mean?



Entropy3000 said:


> Also controlling comes up when there is a thrid party.


I've thought of this being a possibility for some time now. There's always been one guy that she seems to have been fond of, a good childhood friend of her older brother's. I did confront her on one occasion about this, and even asked if she's been cheating on me with this guy. She cried hysterically and couldn't believe I asked her such a question. The whole "don't you trust me" came out of her mouth, and I told her that I trust her but not some of the people who she considers to be just friends of hers.



Entropy3000 said:


> Does she work?


Yes, fulltime.



Entropy3000 said:


> Facebook?


This is honestly where and when I feel our marriage started going back. She joined FB over two years ago, started re-uniting with all her past childhood & high school friends, and was on that crap for hours every night. We used to have sex often before FB came into her life, and because I was starting to get worried I joined up FB to initially keep an eye on her (in a sense). Then I started enjoying FB. I mentioned in both sessions of marriage counseling that FB was the devil in our relationship. Instead of talking face-to-face with her, the communication involved emails, texts, FB messages or FB chatting. I turned the FB chatting off, because I would much rather speak with you in person than through that ****.

In our most recent fight, I told her how I felt about FB and that I was going to delete my account. I never told her to do it with her account, but I stated that FB was ruining our marriage. All those hours per day she spent on it could've been spent with me. The next day she wrote saying she deleted it. However, I then learned that she only deactivated it. I asked if she has intentions of going back to it, she said she doesn't think so.

Why not just delete the account entirely? Kind of a half-assed approach by her if you ask me.

I can honestly say that I don't miss it one bit.



Entropy3000 said:


> Gym?


Yes, she goes to the gym about 3 times a week. It's just another way for her to get away from me, let off some steam & stress, and get into great shape.

Which reminds me, she looks smoking hot now. I tell her this, she then does the "ummm, thanks" crap to me, and because she's getting hotter by working out she won't let me take advantage of her or take care of her in a sexual way. She bought a new swimming suit, was flaunting it at me which got me quite aroused, and then I told her how great she looked in it and what it did to me. She didn't seem too impressed or interested by that. I don't get it.



Entropy3000 said:


> Go out much?


She goes out all the time. She'll go out to her girlfriends' one day on the weekend, hang out with women in the neighborhood for some drinks & gossip at one of their homes (she's had them over at our place before), and then she goes out to exercise about 3 times a week.

Do her and I go out? Almost never. We have a date day/night today and my parents have the kids for the night, so it's just the two of us. I'm sure she's thinking that all I'm going to want is sex tonight, and I'm sure she's just waiting for me to mention something about that. Our plans are going to a movie of her choice and then dinner somewhere nice. Afterward, probably just come home and chill. I'm nervous about today, because of her saying just the other day that she wants space. Not sure how I'm going to play this one out today.



Entropy3000 said:


> High School Reunions?


Yes, both of our 20-yr reunions are coming up. I'm not going to mine, because I hate the people from there. She's dying to go to hers, though, because she just loves everyone. Ugh. Worse of all, is that her reunion is on a Friday night and all day Saturday and Saturday night (everyone is staying at a hotel). I haven't said to her if I was going or not, but because she knows I don't like some of her high school friends that she's probably not intending on me going with her. The whole damn thing scares the hell out of me, and I know I would be miserable there yet worrying my ass off at home. Not sure what to do with that one.



Entropy3000 said:


> What does she do with her time beyond being a mother?


Lots of things for herself as previously mentioned, but not much for "us."



Entropy3000 said:


> What activities do you guys do together period?


Right now, nothing. I keep trying to do date outings with her, and because we both work it's hard to make things like that happen. It's no excuse, but I do keep throwing out dates & ideas. Other than that, we just play the role of roommates in my eyes.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi s0medude ~
There sure are a lot of acronyms. It reminds me of where I work and we give every new hire a glossary of acronyms or trying to figure out what texts from my teen mean. I use this site a lot: 
Urban Dictionary: ilybinilwy

EA = Emotional Affair
PA = Physical Affair
ILYBIANILWY = "I Love You But I Am Not In Love With You"


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

SD,

There are some big red flags in her talk with you.

Ilybnilwy means I love you but I'm not in love with you. This comes in many forms. The comment about loving you because of the kids is one of them

An EA is an emotional affair. A PA is a physical affair.

She got less interested n you after joining Facebook. Big red flag. Typically this is a sign of an EA.

She cried when you mentioned her attraction to her friend. Sometimes, a person in an EA will lay on the guilt to you really heavy to make YOU feel insecure, to take away her guilt or to shift the suspicion. Another big red flag.

The instant lack of desire, calling you controlling, not trusting. These are symptoms of someone in an EA.

Now, I'm not saying this is your case. But the signs are there. Or, she may be close to heading in that direction.

Wha to do. Well...you can try to determine if she's having an EA. Check her texts and emails. Etc. Do a little snooping. Don't confront her yet though until you have solid proof. Or she will just take it underground.

Now...about yourself. You seem to have nice guy tendencies. This is destructive in a marriage. It makes you seem like a wimp, and your wife will lose both respect and desire and attraction to you. Go check out the sticky at the top of the men's forum about nice guys. Read that information. Read those books recommended there. Work on yourself. This is called Manning Up. The advise is to make you stronger in mind. Someone who has control over himself, and has defined his boundaries in his life and marriage. Boundaries that you will never ever let someone cross or break...even your wife.

Now, don't be scared of conflict with your wife. Ever. And this is a big one...don't ever be scared of losing your wife. This is important. Because if you are scared...you will never stick up for ypur boundaries. And ypur wife will sense this, and you become a doormat. And doormats are not sexy...and her desire for you will just diminish even further.

So. Go work on yourself. Be a strong man. With conviction and strength and inner peace. Be the man that knows what he wants, has total control over his life, never loses his temper, and is a fair and loving husband and father.

Never ever bring up the relationship with your wife unless she does first. This seems counter intuitive, but in fact when you keep bringing it up...it makes you seem insecure. In the men's section, go read about the relationship thermometer. This explains how, in a relationship, you need to counter balance the love that your wife shows you at a temperature that is appropriate for the moment. This temp swings in a relationship...even during the day. Following this guide will ensure you don't seem so clingy.

Now...about the sex. You can do a few things here, but I'll only explain one. Sit your wife down. Turn your temperature down to almost zero, because this is an important talk. Be ca
M. Be strong. Never raise your voice. And do this...
"dear. Here's my issue. I married you because I loved you. I enjoy doing things with you. Going out on date night. Sitting talking. Connecting with you. And especially sex. Because sex is important to me, and it's one of my biggest needs as a man. It makes me feel connected with you on intimate levels you, as a woman, maybe just don't understand. But trust me, it does. 
The lack of sex concerns me, because it does two things. One, it shows that you consider my needs are not important as ypur needs. And two, you put me in a position of having to be celibate for the rest of my life, because I can't ethically fulfill this need without you. Both are unacceptable to me. So...there are only three options here. One, you understand that as a man I have a strong need for sex. And as my wife, you help me fulfill this need together. Two, if this is unacceptable to you, then you agree to an open marriage, so I can ethically fulfill this need outside the marriage. Or three...we divorce. Because I have no desire to be celibate for the rest of my life, and what you are doing right now is selfish."

When she gets mad, be calm, hold up your hand, and say..." unless you want to talk constructively about this issue, this discussion is now finished. When you are ready to discuss it in a mature fashion, I will be more than willing to sit down with you again on this topic."

Then, go leave the house or disappear for a while. You will probably need to calm down yourself.

The thing is, as one of ypur boundaries...you can't bluff. You need to back up your words if you need to. This is not a bluff. So don't do this until you are mentally ready.

In the meantime, go post more on the men's forum. Get more advise. Got to marriedmansexlife.com and read up on being a strong, sexual alpha male type that also has awesome beta traits...you know...the best man and husband and father you can be. One that is desired by his wife and gets lots of sex.


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## Maria9938 (Feb 22, 2011)

In defense of your wife,

My husband doesn't think I'm interested in sex.

However, I am very interested. He has not taken to time to figure what feels good to me. And he certainly doesn't know how to turn me on. He was also the more experienced person, but he never took the time to teach me anything or learn new things together.

He just figured I'm not interested, but he's wrong.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It is almost impossible to get a real 3D view of someone's situation from a few posts. Before suggesting you "do" anything I have some questions:
- You asked if she was cheating on you with a specific man. Obviously that is a very big thing to ask. Was there a pattern of questionable behavior on her part towards him and him towards her that caused you to ask that question? For instance if your spouse is in some intense texting/calling/emailing type mode with a specific person that is a big red flag. If they are secretive about their phone (locked), FB, email account passwords that is another red flag. 

- You mentioned this bit about her feeling you are controlling. And she gave you 10 examples. The coaster is actually a good example. Let me give you my take on that. If my W and I had that exchange - and later she told me it made her feel bad when I did that, I would just add it to her "profile". The truth is I am not willing to cause bad feelings over something that is small to me and big to her. I wouldn't be a doormat about it, in fact when it first came up as a "problem" for her I would likely ask "How do you want me to handle that situation going forward"? If she said, "let it go because I feel nitpicked when you do that type stuff" I would. 

- Why doesn't your W enjoy your company? She does seem to be avoiding you. And usually it is because a spouse does not like being around their partner. But there are "reasons" for that. 

- As for the bathing suit. There is no way in hell I would compliment my W on her appearance/hotness if she was freezing me out in bed. Not going to happen. That is simply reinforcing the very ugly dynamic of you having desire and her not even having the commitment level to have sex with you because she loves you. While sexless you stop with the compliments. They are simply a direct transfer of self esteem, hers goes up and yours goes down. Bad pattern. 

- The comment about the gym is not constructive. "she is just doing this as another way to get away from me". You have two totally separate issues here. The first is that she doesn't like being with you, and that needs to be addressed. The second is that she is going to the gym to do something positive for herself and you need to be supportive of that. 

- Do you workout? Are you in good shape/the same shape as when you married? 

- Do you have some close friends you can talk to who live near you?



s0medude said:


> What is an EA and PA?
> 
> Even she doesn't know, that's the problem. She's clueless as to what she wants, or maybe she already knows what she wants and is just afraid of its reality.
> 
> ...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Before we had our first child the sex life was awesome. She was wanting sex all the time, couldn't get enough of it. After the first the sex life started going downhill, but wasn't bad enough to raise concern. After our second child was born, her libido went downhill fast. 

You see a pattern? You didn't transform into a controlling beast by becoming a father. Why did the sex decrease upon the birth of your first child and why did it decrease further with your second? What changed was that a child cemented her position and power in the relationship. More kids, more power, less need to accomodate you. 
She figures you aren't going anywhere, no need to concentrate on you or what you want. That explains why sex is "the last thing" on her mind. You took the cheese, the trap was sprung, and nobody puts cheese out for a trapped mouse.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Maria9938 said:


> In defense of your wife,
> 
> My husband doesn't think I'm interested in sex.
> 
> ...


Maria ~ You are the one holding the key. Give it to your husband! Talk with him and let him know how you feel, or better yet, if you can SHOW him how you feel. It sounds like you are at cross-purposes with your husband.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Before we had our first child the sex life was awesome. She was wanting sex all the time, couldn't get enough of it. After the first the sex life started going downhill, but wasn't bad enough to raise concern. After our second child was born, her libido went downhill fast.
> 
> You see a pattern? You didn't transform into a controlling beast by becoming a father. Why did the sex decrease upon the birth of your first child and why did it decrease further with your second? What changed was that a child cemented her position and power in the relationship. More kids, more power, less need to accomodate you.
> She figures you aren't going anywhere, no need to concentrate on you or what you want. That explains why sex is "the last thing" on her mind. You took the cheese, the trap was sprung, and nobody puts cheese out for a trapped mouse.


It's interesting that it's often a common pattern that after the birth of children that a woman's libido decreases. I'm sure some of it is biologic and natural - fatigue and hormone changes that depress the woman's libido to ensure she bonds and takes care of the infant instead of burdening her body with another pregnancy and potentially risking her and the infant if another should happen too soon.

But, for a woman desire is more than biological/physical. It is also emotional. For a wife who loves, trusts, and respects her husband, the decline in natural physical desire in her body after having children can often be offset with a desire within the woman's mind/emotions to still have her body bind with her husbands.

Many women don't seem to be able to get to that point, however - perhaps it is ambivalence over their new role as a mother or it can also be ambivalence over the role their husband is now playing. This forum has had posts from women who were very disgruntled with their husband's poor attitude toward them after childbirth. I am sure that it is not always a power play.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Speak up and let him know. Being deprived because of lack of communicating desire is a pointless exercise.

Allowing a spouse to think you don't like it? Bewildering.



Enchantment said:


> Maria ~ You are the one holding the key. Give it to your husband! Talk with him and let him know how you feel, or better yet, if you can SHOW him how you feel. It sounds like you are at cross-purposes with your husband.





Maria9938 said:


> In defense of your wife,
> 
> My husband doesn't think I'm interested in sex.
> 
> ...


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Many women don't seem to be able to get to that point, however - perhaps it is ambivalence over their new role as a mother or it can also be ambivalence over the role their husband is now playing. This forum has had posts from women who were very disgruntled with their husband's poor attitude toward them after childbirth. I am sure that it is not always a power play."

It is an exchange of sex for security as it has always been. If she found it necessary for her survival to behave sexually, she would do so. Though 44% of American women purporte to have some level of lack of sexual interest, I wager that if the same group of women were asked if they would be willing to perform a sexual act upon their husbands for $1 million or to save their own life, they would almost universally agree. The problem, then, is not that they "can't", but that they don't feel sufficiently motivated. Those who have the desire to withhold and who are also in a position to do so without incurring immediate adverse consequences are likely to do so.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> It is an exchange of sex for security as it has always been. If she found it necessary for her survival to behave sexually, she would do so.


I must be a silly, naive, romantic fool at heart, as I have such a hard time relating to this.  I had hoped that we as human beings would be past this, but I'm sure this does exist in some cases. I've just never felt like this in my own relationship. :scratchhead:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I was silly, romantic-at-heart, etc, etc. I also believed in Santa Claus and wanted to be a cowboy. I grew up.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I was silly, romantic-at-heart, etc, etc. I also believed in Santa Claus and wanted to be a cowboy. I grew up.


What - you mean there really isn't a Santa Claus? Oh, man! 

btw, You would have probably made an awesome old-time sheriff out west. :smcowboy:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

> I've thought of this being a possibility for some time now. There's always been one guy that she seems to have been fond of, a good childhood friend of her older brother's. I did confront her on one occasion about this, and even asked if she's been cheating on me with this guy. She cried hysterically and couldn't believe I asked her such a question. The whole "don't you trust me" came out of her mouth, and I told her that I trust her but not some of the people who she considers to be just friends of hers.


Interesting reaction. File this away. It may make more sense down the line.



> Yes, fulltime.


What type of work? Does she make more money that you do?

So she has less time available to do her activities than she would if she did not work. Just trying to get the picture of how seh allocates her time. Not working would give her time to be bored and look for attention elsewhere. Affairs can happen in variety fo places. Emotional affairs can happen in the work place. I did not see anything that said she spent extra time at work or partied a lot with folks there or that you have seen any questionable emails or texts with co-workers. Just the usual suspects kinda thing here. Not saying she is in an affair but there are some Red Flags here that warrant some further investigation on your part to protect your marriage and frankly to turn it around.

One thing we know is that your marriage is vulnerable to an affair right now. The fact she does not want to be around you is the biggest Red Flag of all.



> This is honestly where and when I feel our marriage started going back. She joined FB over two years ago, started re-uniting with all her past childhood & high school friends, and was on that crap for hours every night. We used to have sex often before FB came into her life, and because I was starting to get worried I joined up FB to initially keep an eye on her (in a sense). Then I started enjoying FB. I mentioned in both sessions of marriage counseling that FB was the devil in our relationship. Instead of talking face-to-face with her, the communication involved emails, texts, FB messages or FB chatting. I turned the FB chatting off, because I would much rather speak with you in person than through that ****.


Very telling. I read recently that one in five divorces sight Facebook as a major contributor. Two things happen here as you point out. It takes away from your time together isolating you. It opens up the wife to looking up old friends from days gone by. A bitt of fantasy is mixed into this which is hard to fight. It also opens up your wife to predators.



> In our most recent fight, I told her how I felt about FB and that I was going to delete my account. I never told her to do it with her account, but I stated that FB was ruining our marriage. All those hours per day she spent on it could've been spent with me. The next day she wrote saying she deleted it. However, I then learned that she only deactivated it. I asked if she has intentions of going back to it, she said she doesn't think so.


Hmmmm. Positive that she sadi she does not think so. Hoepfully she is being sincere. A good sign possibly. I suggest you not take this at face value and validate that she is not longer on facebook and monitor periodically. Be aware you can have multiple facebook accounts.




> Yes, she goes to the gym about 3 times a week. It's just another way for her to get away from me, let off some steam & stress, and get into great shape.


Like many things in life there is good and bad with everything.
In genral the gym should be a good thing. Life is also full of choices. Three times week is in genral a very healthy thing to do for ones body and self esteem. The balance is how much that takes aware from time with the family. Si if you are going to go to the Gym three times a week, then great. But don;t deduct the time from your relationship. Give up something else. 

Does she have a personal trainer? A lot of folks do and sure they can be harmless. But there is also a possibility of shinnaigans as well. Just a thought.



> Which reminds me, she looks smoking hot now. I tell her this, she then does the "ummm, thanks" crap to me, and because she's getting hotter by working out she won't let me take advantage of her or take care of her in a sexual way. She bought a new swimming suit, was flaunting it at me which got me quite aroused, and then I told her how great she looked in it and what it did to me. She didn't seem too impressed or interested by that. I don't get it.


HUGE RED FLAG. Hey it is so great that our wives get smokin hot. BUT who are they getting smoking hot for. My comments are from the husbands perspective. I am not interested in the smokin hot for hwrself because that just does not matter for our discussion. If she is smokin hot and you are not having sex with her, there is a real danger she will be having sex with someone else in her future if not already. She has increased her sex rank. On a scale of 1 to 10 what is her sex rank. What is yours. If her sex rank is more than yours and she is not into you, there is concern. If her sex rank is much larger than your, you have big trouble buddy.

I am going to make a leap here and tell you if she is a healthy woman, working out and is smokin hot, she has a sex drive and wants sex. Just not with you. At least right now. For sure she is going to have great opportunity to have sex if she is smokin hot. Men will be at the gates and trying their hardest to seduce her. She will start to have more guy "friends". 



> She goes out all the time. She'll go out to her girlfriends' one day on the weekend, hang out with women in the neighborhood for some drinks & gossip at one of their homes (she's had them over at our place before), and then she goes out to exercise about 3 times a week.


I don;t see it here but watch out if she is going out on Girls Nights Out where there is drinking, flirting and dancing. Esepcailly he she dresses hot for this. If she is smokin hot then she will draw huge attention. If she is not having sex with you then you do the math.

You guys are not spending enough time together. Some people think that couples need fifteen hours per week of time together.

Are these friends and neighbors pro-marriage? Do they bash their husbands? 

She spends a whole day out at her girl friends once a week.
Give us an idea of what one day is. From when to when. It is not overnight surely. What do they do? Is there any interaction with other men at the girl friends? Is she married? 



> Do her and I go out? Almost never. We have a date day/night today and my parents have the kids for the night, so it's just the two of us. I'm sure she's thinking that all I'm going to want is sex tonight, and I'm sure she's just waiting for me to mention something about that. Our plans are going to a movie of her choice and then dinner somewhere nice. Afterward, probably just come home and chill. I'm nervous about today, because of her saying just the other day that she wants space. Not sure how I'm going to play this one out today.


You need to be spending quality time together. It does not have to be about sex. Sex is in the head. Check out that Married Man's Sex Life blog above. For me it is about me having an ongoing affair with my wife. 



> Yes, both of our 20-yr reunions are coming up. I'm not going to mine, because I hate the people from there. She's dying to go to hers, though, because she just loves everyone. Ugh. Worse of all, is that her reunion is on a Friday night and all day Saturday and Saturday night (everyone is staying at a hotel). I haven't said to her if I was going or not, but because she knows I don't like some of her high school friends that she's probably not intending on me going with her. The whole damn thing scares the hell out of me, and I know I would be miserable there yet worrying my ass off at home. Not sure what to do with that one.


If you do not go with your wife you are a complete fool sir. I have friends who lost their marriages over long distance H.S. Reunions. She is smokin hot, not having se with you and going to her old reunion. If you do not go just get you finances in order and prepare for the worst. Period. If you do not go you are not interested in staying married to your smokin hot wife. You have to ****block at the very least. Not about trust. Forget that. Make the event if possible an opportunity to spend time with your wife. This seems a make of break thing to me.




> Lots of things for herself as previously mentioned, but not much for "us."


Stop being a Nice Giuy. Women hate that. They don't have sex with Nice Guys. They have sex with men who have a good balance of Alpha and Beta traits. Take charge of your marriage. Take control. Being called controlling in your case is your wife wanting space to find her own life without you. 



> Right now, nothing. I keep trying to do date outings with her, and because we both work it's hard to make things like that happen. It's no excuse, but I do keep throwing out dates & ideas. Other than that, we just play the role of roommates in my eyes.


Don;t take no for an answer. She has to make you a priority. She has scheduled you out of her life. Made her self smokin hot for someone else. She may not yet be in an affair. Odds are good though, but she has prepared herself to be. The relationship is EXTREMELY VULNERABLE to this.

You have to take action. You must improve yourself but that takes time. Do that but in the meantime you have to have one on one time with your wife. Not just sex.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Before we had our first child the sex life was awesome. She was wanting sex all the time, couldn't get enough of it. After the first the sex life started going downhill, but wasn't bad enough to raise concern. After our second child was born, her libido went downhill fast.
> 
> You see a pattern? You didn't transform into a controlling beast by becoming a father. Why did the sex decrease upon the birth of your first child and why did it decrease further with your second? What changed was that a child cemented her position and power in the relationship. More kids, more power, less need to accomodate you.
> She figures you aren't going anywhere, no need to concentrate on you or what you want. That explains why sex is "the last thing" on her mind. You took the cheese, the trap was sprung, and nobody puts cheese out for a trapped mouse.


Oh come of it already! This isn't about power, controlling and trapping a guy with bait. There is always a flip side to the situation.
In my case, my husband was a take charge kind of guy who could handle anything, soldier through, find a solution and could master everything that was put on his plate. A highly intelligent man, Mensa actually. 
After the birth of our first child, he became this helpless man I couldn't even recognize anymore. He acted just like the newborn we had. He needed constant validation and "instructions" on how to do the most basic things, while playing grab a$$ with me. He was looking for attention but doing it in all the wrong ways. It sure as hell wasn't sexy, it was annoying and pathetic. 
I felt like I had two children, instead of one. 
I was/am the higher sex drive person and yes, that behavior killed it for me for a long time. I felt totally alone at 21, to raise our son. Scared. I felt like if I don't do it, nobody will. So did I cut off sex because I suddenly had no desire for sex? NO. I cut off sex because I literally had no desire for the person who changed so drastically. Had he instead been the man I fell in love with and ponied up to help me with our son, taken the reigns of the situation like he had so many times before, my sex drive would have never decreased. Sex was the last thing on my mind with my husband because I didn't relish the thought of screwing a 5 year old trapped in a man's body. If anybody took the cheese, it was me.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> What is an EA and PA?
> 
> Even she doesn't know, that's the problem. She's clueless as to what she wants, or maybe she already knows what she wants and is just afraid of its reality.
> 
> ...


Oh I forgot. Go to the GYM with her. Change your schedule if you must. All three times a week is great but at a bare minimum once per week. A lot of reasons for this but they should be obvious.

1) You need to up your sex rank.

2) You need to see what friends she has at the GYM

3) People at the GYM need to know she is married and that you are her husband.

4) This is an interest you can share

5) This can count towards time together

Just do your own thing. You want to look like an Alpha mail. Do not put yourself in a position to be compared to anyone else at the GYM. Be your own man. Not a problem if you meet friends there. Just do not invite other men into your relationship.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I certainly changed my share of diapers. Matter-of-fact, my ex gave me custody of both children when they were quite small. One wasn't even my biological child! She simply found a better deal and hooked up with my neighbor who made a little more money. She later traded him in on one who made somewhat more. She now has one that makes 6 figures but she'd trade him this afternoon if she found a better deal. I am helpful, attentive, patient, etc, etc, etc, with my current wife. I demand nothing, ask for very little, and have contented myself nonsexual touching for so long, I feel like her gay buddy. When I do have the bad manners of bringing up our lack of romance, sex, etc, she tells me it's because she's unhappy that I left some clothes on the floor, or that I field-stripped a cigarette in the front yard, or that (fill in the blank). I've changed my behaviors a hundred times but her's remains the same. The excuses are the only thing that changes. I might also add that her lack of sexual interest existed in her previous relationships as well although when she and I were dating, she was all up for it. Her interest in sex with me died instantly when the ring hit my finger. The only thing I can conclude is that all that slap and tickle while we were dating was just an act. I have jumped through all the hoops and it makes no difference. I'm sure my situation doesn't replicate everyone else's and there are women who dont' use sex as currency or power and control but it does happen, it happens often, it's the oldest transaction in the history of earth. Look at all the women on this forum that suggest if their husband did X they would respond by giving them affection. They justify withholding affection because H didn't do X or didn't do Y. That is a transaction where sex is used as currency.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> I certainly changed my share of diapers. Matter-of-fact, my ex gave me custody of both children when they were quite small. One wasn't even my biological child! She simply found a better deal and hooked up with my neighbor who made a little more money. She later traded him in on one who made somewhat more. She now has one that makes 6 figures but she'd trade him this afternoon if she found a better deal. I am helpful, attentive, patient, etc, etc, etc, with my current wife. I demand nothing, ask for very little, and have contented myself nonsexual touching for so long, I feel like her gay buddy. When I do have the bad manners of bringing up our lack of romance, sex, etc, she tells me it's because she's unhappy that I left some clothes on the floor, or that I field-stripped a cigarette in the front yard, or that (fill in the blank). I've changed my behaviors a hundred times but her's remains the same. The excuses are the only thing that changes. I might also add that her lack of sexual interest existed in her previous relationships as well although when she and I were dating, she was all up for it. Her interest in sex with me died instantly when the ring hit my finger. The only thing I can conclude is that all that slap and tickle while we were dating was just an act. I have jumped through all the hoops and it makes no difference. I'm sure my situation doesn't replicate everyone else's and there are women who dont' use sex as currency or power and control but it does happen, it happens often, it's the oldest transaction in the history of earth. Look at all the women on this forum that suggest if their husband did X they would respond by giving them affection. They justify withholding affection because H didn't do X or didn't do Y. That is a transaction where sex is used as currency.


Well then you married the wrong woman. 
You want to equate all women down to the level of a prostitute, a transaction based encounter where she is somehow getting paid or benefiting financially. What a glib view you have of women. 
We aren't all cut from the cloth you talk about. I don't use sex to get what I want. I use sex to get off. Pure and simple. 
As for the oldest transaction in history, it was the stone mason. A man who was no longer a slave, able to work his craft and charge for it. Prostitution followed shortly there after.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Well then you married the wrong woman.
> You want to equate all women down to the level of a prostitute, a transaction based encounter where she is somehow getting paid or benefiting financially. What a glib view you have of women.
> We aren't all cut from the cloth you talk about. I don't use sex to get what I want. I use sex to get off. Pure and simple.
> As for the oldest transaction in history, it was the stone mason. A man who was no longer a slave, able to work his craft and charge for it. Prostitution followed shortly there after.


They were the ones who followed the six fleet.

Anyway. yes a bleak view of women. We can though see the hard wired nature of hypergamy at work here. That does not mean women have to act on it.

There may be some hypergamy at work with the original poster.
If she purposely upped her sex rank to draw better genes then maybe. Not saying she did but this story is no where near clear yet. People will say she has every right to do that. Well, ok but that is hypergamy.


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

Oh boy, Hang in there. Stay Strong. Me and my DH have been married for 19 years and have 4 kids. Marriage is really tough. Sometimes we think our problems will go away or work itself out. You guys have done the right thing by getting counseling. You have been very honest with her, she knows that, and despite what you think, she appreciates it. I know it's tough but be patient. It's funny but a person thinks that when we get married, the spouse will fulfill out needs, but we have to learn to serve the other's needs. I found in 19 years of marriage that some years my DH gave more to the marriage and some years I gave more. Don't give up. This world needs good people to stay together like you and your wife!!!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

TRBE how are you working on tge problem? 

Our problems started when we had kids. The problem was that I focused all of my attension on my kids a forgot my husband. His reaction was to distance himself and not help with the extra work. When I realized the reason I approched to fix it. 

The change in our rationship was just short of miraculous. All it took was my understanding what happened to touch off the spiral down. It takes only one person to recognize the problem and to approach the other with understanding. 

Men frequently feel their wife's abandon them both physically and emotionally when kids come along. We get busy tierd and forget to communicate tge changes with our spouse and it leave to misunderstanding. Also sex is not just a physical need it is tge way men feel love when tgey are in a commited relationship wit a woman they love. Would you be willing to read books to understand your husband and let him know. Maybe get him to read too. 

I hope you do not take this the wrong way but your post seems to indicate that you are contemptuous of you husband. Read about contempt in relationships, it is the worse reaction you can have and as unacceptable as violence. 

It is soul killing. I am certain you do not mean to destroy your husband. He really does not deserve your contempt, it strips him of his ability to meet the world with confidence. Go within yourself and examine your role in the problems. Be brutally honest with yourself. I can assure you he is not the only one who got you both to this point. 

Are you willing to make the first move towards reconnection?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

I hate to say this, but has there always been this power play in your relationship? It might not be about sex at all but about power. I have to that are also a lot of tech distractions in marriage today. We have been married for 19 years, 4 kids, and I could never stop have sex with my husband. Sure we have had our ups and downs, who hasn't but there is nothing like connecting with the one who adores you through the good, bad and ugly. Hang in there hun, if it is a power play, don't give in. Fight for the marriage, underlying power struggles usually result from low self esteem from one or two partners!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Ok so my tale of woe might be different, but I'm willing to admit that the struggle isn't worth it, maybe it never was. If she's not into 'it', not into you and sees that part of her life, if there ever was one, over and out, then just let it go. To me it's one less thing to hold over my head and threaten me with. If that's what she wants, ok, she wins. Give her the gold medal.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

So, if the average man just quits going to work or quits bringing his paycheck home, all you paragons of virtue would continue to faithfully remain by his side till death do you part? I submit most of y'all would drop him like a bad habit. I also submit none of y'all would consider a penniless homeless man to be decent husband material, regardless of his other admirable qualities.


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## dannyboyk (Jun 12, 2011)

This is why men need to quit marrying women. They are all the same. 

Ask yourselves why a woman would have sex with you once she has nailed down your resources through marriage? She now has made you her slave. You are beneath her. If you think that's not true, look at what happens to child support resistors?

She has a lifetime paycheck. If you quit the marriage, she gets alimony. Now she has you as a slave, with the guns and the nightsticks of the state, why would she have sex with you? She can go out now, and have sex with the men she really wants sex from. You are nothing to her.

Marriage is a fatal mistake for a man.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I wouldn't agree that it's a fatal mistake, but it does seem to be an unbalanced arrangement which imposes no serious obligation on the woman. Most will only give to the extent and for as long as they feel so inclined. Might as well shack up. According to the female respondents, it's supposed to be all about emotions anyway. No need to mingle finances or involve the law. If she felt repulsed by her man, she could simply split instead of lingering around 8 years, consuming the fruits of his labor. I can love a woman without buying her a house.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> You asked if she was cheating on you with a specific man. Obviously that is a very big thing to ask. Was there a pattern of questionable behavior on her part towards him and him towards her that caused you to ask that question? For instance if your spouse is in some intense texting/calling/emailing type mode with a specific person that is a big red flag. If they are secretive about their phone (locked), FB, email account passwords that is another red flag.


Yes, she's always been kind of private about that sort of thing. I have no idea what her passwords are to her email, FB, etc etc. I'm an Android hacking/modding god, and every now and then I hear her complain about something wrong with her Android phone. I always ask her if there's something I can do for her (to fix the problem), but she always says "it's not a big deal, don't worry about it." One time she let me look at her phone, and she had a widget that shows her "favorite" people to call (sort of a speed dialer). This dude was like the third person on the list, with the first two people her best girl friends. I was on there, but just not in the top three. I asked her about that dude being there (because I already had suspicion), and she said that he was there because the app lists people in alphabetical order. Little does she know (she should know since I mess around with Android stuff all the time) that I know that app/widget very well, and it doesn't do that. So, WTF?

I've confronted her twice about the guy, and both times it resulted in her freaking out, crying and getting pissed at me. Always followed with the following: "you don't trust me?!?"



MEM11363 said:


> You mentioned this bit about her feeling you are controlling. And she gave you 10 examples. The coaster is actually a good example. Let me give you my take on that. If my W and I had that exchange - and later she told me it made her feel bad when I did that, I would just add it to her "profile". The truth is I am not willing to cause bad feelings over something that is small to me and big to her. I wouldn't be a doormat about it, in fact when it first came up as a "problem" for her I would likely ask "How do you want me to handle that situation going forward"? If she said, "let it go because I feel nitpicked when you do that type stuff" I would.


The problem though is that I asked her to put a stupid coaster underneath something that I thought was filled with hot tea, because we already ruined one wood table because of something hot. I only asked her nicely about it. She never once said squat back to me that it hurt her in any way. Not my fault she didn't communicate that to me. 



MEM11363 said:


> As for the bathing suit. There is no way in hell I would compliment my W on her appearance/hotness if she was freezing me out in bed. Not going to happen. That is simply reinforcing the very ugly dynamic of you having desire and her not even having the commitment level to have sex with you because she loves you. While sexless you stop with the compliments. They are simply a direct transfer of self esteem, hers goes up and yours goes down. Bad pattern.


Wow, I never once thought of it that way before. Awesome advice, seriously. Would it have been a good idea to say something like, "please don't show me an outfit like that when you choose to not have sex with me." Good idea or no?



MEM11363 said:


> The comment about the gym is not constructive. "she is just doing this as another way to get away from me". You have two totally separate issues here. The first is that she doesn't like being with you, and that needs to be addressed. The second is that she is going to the gym to do something positive for herself and you need to be supportive of that.


I am very supportive of her working out. I never have an issue when she tells me at the last minute that she needs to go workout, and then I stay home to worry about dinner, getting the kids bathed, and putting them to bed. I always tell her how proud of her for doing it, and I compliment her on how good she looks (even though I always thought of her being a beautiful woman).



MEM11363 said:


> Do you workout? Are you in good shape/the same shape as when you married?


No, I don't work out. I have really bad knees and a horrible back that's been fractured twice in the same spot, so me working out doesn't really work for my body. However, I'm not out of shape and look pretty good for being 38. 



MEM11363 said:


> Do you have some close friends you can talk to who live near you?


All of my close friends from high school and college live far away, and I never see them anymore. Rarely, do I communicate with them over email or phone. I have some friends that live close to me, but we're all married with kids and it's hard to find time to do things together. And when my wife is doing stuff for herself all the time, it's hard for me to find time to do something for me.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Hmmmm. Positive that she sadi she does not think so. Hoepfully she is being sincere. A good sign possibly. I suggest you not take this at face value and validate that she is not longer on facebook and monitor periodically. Be aware you can have multiple facebook accounts.


I spoke with her about this again over the weekend, and it does sound like she deleted it. Of course now I cannot keep an eye on her and especially on her friends (who I don't care for or trust), but hopefully it's a good decision for both us. Like I said, things went bad after FB entered our lives.



Entropy3000 said:


> HUGE RED FLAG. Hey it is so great that our wives get smokin hot. BUT who are they getting smoking hot for. My comments are from the husbands perspective. I am not interested in the smokin hot for hwrself because that just does not matter for our discussion. If she is smokin hot and you are not having sex with her, there is a real danger she will be having sex with someone else in her future if not already. She has increased her sex rank. On a scale of 1 to 10 what is her sex rank. What is yours. If her sex rank is more than yours and she is not into you, there is concern. If her sex rank is much larger than your, you have big trouble buddy.


I don't think she would be called "smoking hot" for all men, but she's definitely very attractive and is hot to me. On sex scales, we're both up there pretty high. I don't think she's on a PA with anyone, but after reading all these responses I'm really concerned about the EA with someone.



Entropy3000 said:


> Are these friends and neighbors pro-marriage? Do they bash their husbands?


Interesting you bring up this question. After her joining FB a couple years ago she rekindled her friendship with one of her best friends (woman), someone who I had never heard of once before. They hadn't spoken to one another for almost 18 years. Then they become best of friends again, like it was just days ago since they had last seen each other. This friend of her's cheated with her husband on a vacation (they have 2 kids), she told him later, they divorced, and then were re-married after about 6 months or so. She is the biggest concern to me.



Entropy3000 said:


> If you do not go with your wife you are a complete fool sir. I have friends who lost their marriages over long distance H.S. Reunions. She is smokin hot, not having se with you and going to her old reunion. If you do not go just get you finances in order and prepare for the worst. Period. If you do not go you are not interested in staying married to your smokin hot wife. You have to ****block at the very least. Not about trust. Forget that. Make the event if possible an opportunity to spend time with your wife. This seems a make of break thing to me.


I'll go. I'm not going to enjoy myself, but I'll go. I'll have to figure out how to enjoy it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> I spoke with her about this again over the weekend, and it does sound like she deleted it. Of course now I cannot keep an eye on her and especially on her friends (who I don't care for or trust), but hopefully it's a good decision for both us. Like I said, things went bad after FB entered our lives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, please go for both your sakes. It is a positive thing for your marriage whether there are any other issues or not. 

Ok, the whole smokin hot thing. I know what you mean. It is just a concern when there is an imbalance on the "sex rank" scale, not in your favor. Sounds like you are ok here. Good deal. 

I saw about the physical issues you have. Dang. I have herniated a disk from power lifting but am back lifting as heavy as ever, but your situation sounds like a real issue. 

Is there any activity at the GYM you think you could benefit from? Really anything would be positive. 

Yeah I would be at least a bit concerned about a dude that ranks higher on the speed dial thing.

All in all if you are an Andoid geek you have value just for that.  It does show you have good intelligence. I grok.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Here's a couple new questions for everyone...

Would it be wrong if I asked my wife if I could read her email and text messages? That would for sure show signs that I don't trust her, but how could I go about doing that in the right regard? If I could see that stuff, it would at the very least show me truth in it all (being faithful to me or having an EA).

The whole thought about her possibly having an EA just scares the crap out of me. Is there a proper way of asking her if she's having one with someone? Maybe not target that one guy who I've had suspicion about, but how would I go about doing that? How do I explain what an EA is to her? I never once thought about an EA, as I simply had thoughts that she could've been having a PA with that guy.

Lastly, she knows I don't want to go to her 20-yr high school reunion. How do I tell her that I would like to go with her, after me showing those signs of not wanting to go? Last thing I'd want to do is have her think that I'm going solely to keep an eye on her or something.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

The 2nd part is easy. Just say you have been thinking that you guys have really not been spending enough time together.

Take the approach that you want to put in the effort to improve your relationship. Focus on the positive. You need to sell her that you want to go. If she pushes back, don't take no for an answer. Insist.

I will leave the tougher question to some other folks. You do not want to push on the email stuff and blow the critical need for you to go to the reunion.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Here's a couple updates (good ones)...

1) *Date Night* - We had a date day/night yesterday while the kids spent the night at my parents' house. We saw a movie (laughed our asses off to Bridesmaids) and had dinner at a really good restaurant. Ate well and drank some good alcohol, went home, and had some outstanding intimacy and sex. Hopefully we don't have to get drunk to have sex, but we had a nice time. Overall, great time with her.

2) *Spending More Time Together* - I told her tonight that we need to spend more time together, and that I would like to do something at least once a week (even if it's for just a couple hours without kids). She seemed receptive to it and agreed. Did she show a huge sense of "hellz yeah let's do this thing?" No, but hopefully this is a good start for us.

3) *Working Out* - I told her tonight that I want to go workout with her, and she's happy about that. I'd have to do other things since my back is really bad, so we wouldn't be working out technically together, but we would be going together & doing that at the same place.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> Here's a couple updates (good ones)...
> 
> 1) *Date Night* - We had a date day/night yesterday while the kids spent the night at my parents' house. We saw a movie (laughed our asses off to Bridesmaids) and had dinner at a really good restaurant. Ate well and drank some good alcohol, went home, and had some outstanding intimacy and sex. Hopefully we don't have to get drunk to have sex, but we had a nice time. Overall, great time with her.
> 
> ...


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smthumbup:

Keep this up.

Check out the blog I posted. Again it has done wonders for my marriage. It keeps the ideas flowing in my head so I don't get lazy or caught in a rut.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Check out the blog I posted. Again it has done wonders for my marriage. It keeps the ideas flowing in my head so I don't get lazy or caught in a rut.


I will definitely be reading this blog. I checked it out, and it looks like it should help for sure.

I'm about to buy "The Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida, as it seems to be a pretty good book for men with marriage problems. Anyone have comments on how this book may have helped their marriage?

Would it be a good idea to ask my wife to read David Deida's other book (similar to the one I just mentioned) that's meant for women called "Dear Lover: A Woman's Guide to Men, Sex, and Love's Deepest Bliss?" Furthermore, is it a wise idea to share suggestions on books to read, even point her to articles and forum threads that I think may be beneficial to our marriage?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Search for my post on the "thermostat". You can find it by searching for the word "barometer". 

Read it and let me know what you think. 




s0medude said:


> Here's a couple new questions for everyone...
> 
> Would it be wrong if I asked my wife if I could read her email and text messages? That would for sure show signs that I don't trust her, but how could I go about doing that in the right regard? If I could see that stuff, it would at the very least show me truth in it all (being faithful to me or having an EA).
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The best move by far when she dresses provocatively - like in a bathing suit or just walking around half dressed is to ignore her. Don't complain. That will produce the opposite effect of what you desire. 

In fact ALL compliments about her, and especially about her appearance need to stop until she resumes a sexual relationship with you. And all "admiring looks, sexual vibe, etc. that you give her" that stops as well. 

Ultimately though, if you do all that AND you keep telling her how much you love her, want to be with her (basically crowding her) she is going to continue to keep you celibate. 

The thermostat post addresses all this.



s0medude said:


> Yes, she's always been kind of private about that sort of thing. I have no idea what her passwords are to her email, FB, etc etc. I'm an Android hacking/modding god, and every now and then I hear her complain about something wrong with her Android phone. I always ask her if there's something I can do for her (to fix the problem), but she always says "it's not a big deal, don't worry about it." One time she let me look at her phone, and she had a widget that shows her "favorite" people to call (sort of a speed dialer). This dude was like the third person on the list, with the first two people her best girl friends. I was on there, but just not in the top three. I asked her about that dude being there (because I already had suspicion), and she said that he was there because the app lists people in alphabetical order. Little does she know (she should know since I mess around with Android stuff all the time) that I know that app/widget very well, and it doesn't do that. So, WTF?
> 
> I've confronted her twice about the guy, and both times it resulted in her freaking out, crying and getting pissed at me. Always followed with the following: "you don't trust me?!?"
> 
> ...


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Search for my post on the "thermostat". You can find it by searching for the word "barometer".
> 
> Read it and let me know what you think.


Started reading your post... GOOD stuff! I'm definitely the "hot" one and she's the "cool" one. I need to get to bed because I have to be up at 5 AM tomorrow, but I will read this first thing in the morning.

What is the "R?" Does that mean relationship?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> The best move by far when she dresses provocatively - like in a bathing suit or just walking around half dressed is to ignore her. Don't complain. That will produce the opposite effect of what you desire.
> 
> In fact ALL compliments about her, and especially about her appearance need to stop until she resumes a sexual relationship with you. And all "admiring looks, sexual vibe, etc. that you give her" that stops as well.


What do you do if by ignoring her nothing happens? I.e., she dresses provocatively, you ignore, she carries on dressing provocatively, you carry on ignoring, and on and on and on... What do you do when doing nothing doesn't achieve anything?


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

I unearthed some **** about my W. I was looking at the web browsing history on our main desktop computer at home (it's a shared computer for all of us), and learned that she had gone to her friend's place (the dude that scares me) the weekend I had a gaming party at my place. She told me she went up to her girlfriends' place, but instead her & the girls drove to the guy's place (who I've had concerns about before). And, they all slept at his house. I confronted her about it when she got home from her workout tonight, and just unloaded on her. It's been a huge ****ing fight, with me in total control of the discussion. She's taking a shower right now, and will be back downstairs shortly to continue the conversation. She ****ing LIED to me, and she flat out ****ing knew how much this guy rubbed me the wrong way. What a ****ing joke. This is the absolute WORST news I could possibly have. She swears she didn't cheat on me, and she claims she's not having an EA with him. I asked if he's ever made a pass at her, and she says "no, never." I then told her if he had I would beat the **** out of him... seriously. I would go to jail for something like this. I even pulled up a picture of her that night at this bar of his, compared it to a similar shot of the bar on his website for his bar, and showed them to her. She was BALLING. I told her I want to make this marriage work, but this changes everything. Not 100% sure what's going to go on from here, but I definitely do not trust her anymore. It'll take a lot to build that back up.


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## sadnlonely (May 16, 2011)

Wow.

I just finished reading this thread from start to finish. Your first post matches my life exactly. EXACTLY. Except we don't have ANY sex anymore. 

YOU HAD TO CONFRONT HER ABOUT THE LIES. SLEPT AT HIS HOUSE!!!?!!! My wife "Goes to the beach" and "Goes to Starbucks" to journal and _think_. I'm fairly sure she's had and may still have an EA with an older, mentor type.

I confronted my wife a couple weeks ago and told her that her life as a wife and mother was totally wrong, and that she needed to either TRY to work with me or we were going to have separate and divorce. She said divorce, rather than work on our marriage. So now I have to face the reality that I have to follow through, start filling out joint custody papers, etc. etc. and hope that somewhere along the line she realizes the foolishness of all this. I can't afford the house on my salary alone - she can - so I'm scrambling to save $$ for rent and sec. deposit. I separated our checking accts for the first time ever... this SUCKS!

But I've gone a year+ trying to save our marriage, and 6 months without sex. In fact, she won't even let me touch her. With no end in sight. 

Sooo similar. Crazy. I have 3 kids, and I'm dying inside.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> I unearthed some **** about my W. I was looking at the web browsing history on our main desktop computer at home (it's a shared computer for all of us), and learned that she had gone to her friend's place (the dude that scares me) the weekend I had a gaming party at my place. She told me she went up to her girlfriends' place, but instead her & the girls drove to the guy's place (who I've had concerns about before). And, they all slept at his house. I confronted her about it when she got home from her workout tonight, and just unloaded on her. It's been a huge ****ing fight, with me in total control of the discussion. She's taking a shower right now, and will be back downstairs shortly to continue the conversation. She ****ing LIED to me, and she flat out ****ing knew how much this guy rubbed me the wrong way. What a ****ing joke. This is the absolute WORST news I could possibly have. She swears she didn't cheat on me, and she claims she's not having an EA with him. I asked if he's ever made a pass at her, and she says "no, never." I then told her if he had I would beat the **** out of him... seriously. I would go to jail for something like this. I even pulled up a picture of her that night at this bar of his, compared it to a similar shot of the bar on his website for his bar, and showed them to her. She was BALLING. I told her I want to make this marriage work, but this changes everything. Not 100% sure what's going to go on from here, but I definitely do not trust her anymore. It'll take a lot to build that back up.


We were afraid of this. I was hoping you caught things sooner. The fact her friends supported her in this is not surprising. 

I see she is denying but how can she explain her spending the night there and especially that you did not want her involved with this guy. And she lied.

I like to be positve but this is just f'd up. I would feel the same way as you dude.

Pleaselet bus know how you are doing.

I suggest that no matter what she says and no matter how upset you are, that you tell her that she must be NC with this guys AND that she needs to at least for the near future be NC with these firends who supported this.

Her response to this will tell much.

UFB


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

There are so many different thoughts about what I learned about my W the other night, that it's very hard for me to even try putting them down in a response. I will try my best and hopefully it all makes sense.

Yesterday I emailed her a link to an article about emotional affairs on (of all places) Oprah's website. I found this after searching for "emotional affairs," and it was one of the first results that came back to me. I read it in its entirety, and it's almost spot-on with my W. So I sent her a link to the article, and asked her to let me know what her thoughts are about it. I explained to her that I'm willing to get through this and past it. I want to get past this and I'm sure she does too. I told her that I appreciated her apologizing to me the other night.

Out of the five pages of that article, she said only a few of the bullet points may be relevant to her. None of the other things discussed relate to her. I couldn't believe it. I didn't respond back to her about this, because I want to see how things progress from here.

Last night our boy had a baseball game, so we all went to it together as a family (including my younger daughter). I helped coach his team since one of the other coaches didn't show up, so I didn't have a chance to even sit down next to my wife during the game which is the norm. After the game we came home, the kids went to bed, her & I watch something that was recorded on the DVR, and not ONE thing was discussed about what I learned about the the other night. I was expecting to hear something come from her about it, maybe what her game plan is to help me cope with this mess and how she can stop it immediately and prevent it from happening again. Did that happen? No. When the show was over, we turned it off, turned the TV off, she gave me a semi-big hug and a kiss, and then she said her "goodnight" and "love you" to me. Not one word about the other night.

How long should I not bring this topic up again, in hopes of her coming to me about it?

I'd like to wait it out a little bit to see what she may do or say, but I'm so much more in a worse/depressed state than before because of it. Sure, she was apologetic that night, she was crying, she felt awful, and she was concerned about me well-being after it was all said and done. I truly believe she felt bad for me, and I do believe she regrets ever doing it (at least I *think* she regrets it).

What should I say to her if she never mentions it again?

Remember everyone, I desperately want to get my marriage back to a healthy state, because I do deeply lover her. I think she's in a confused state right now, and I'm hoping she can get better because of it (as she's seeing a psychologist for herself right now). I want to make this communication (if she doesn't bring it back up to me) as painless as possible for her, without the possibility of starting up yet another fight.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Why are you being so passive about this? Why aren't you bringing it up? I'd guess she's not bringing it up because she figures she'll be getting slammed for her behavior. So why would she open up that can of worms?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

PBear said:


> Why are you being so passive about this? Why aren't you bringing it up? I'd guess she's not bringing it up because she figures she'll be getting slammed for her behavior. So why would she open up that can of worms?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what do you suggest I do? Be a complete jerk to her and push her even further away from me? I want to respond to this email (about the EA article I sent her yesterday), but I want to do it in a strategic way to get the following across to her:

- I'm hurt
- I feel betrayed
- What are you going to do to fix this?

Does that work? What else should I say?

This is killing me.


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## sadnlonely (May 16, 2011)

Good Luck. I was passive for a year, during which my W just drifted farther and farther away, going to the beach alone to "work things out her way," sometimes going out with her girlfriends until 2 or 3 AM, in essence ignoring the problem because she liked living the way she was living. I thought, "I can live with this. I can give her the time and space she seems to need." 

Guess what? Now, she wants a divorce, and I'm the one who has to move out, and state law will award her three children just because I'm a man. 

Don't be passive. Tell her that her life is all wrong, that you _should _be the priority, and that she needs to either let that part of her life go AND work on the marriage with you or move out. I waited too long, was too much a pushover, and now I'm going to pay for my mistakes. Don't make that same mistake. Better to stand up for yourself and your marriage now.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I agree.
Don't try to convince her she is having an emotional affiar. Don't try to send her articles that say "See I am right"... Don't have heavy dissucssions about your feelings.

Define to her the type of marriage you expect to have, the type of parents you expect to be. Sadnlonely has a good thing to say. I would change it slightly.
Quote:
Tell her that her our marriage / life has diverted from where it needs to be. We should be each other's priority. You are committed to taking all the steps to make it work, and that she needs to either let that part of her life go AND work on the marriage with you or move out.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

@Hicks & sadnlonely - I do like your ways about how I should be approaching this with her, but I already shared that article with her. I had to confront her about the possible EA she's having, and I shared that article with her because she loves Oprah and maybe that would help convince her. She didn't flip out at me about it at all, apologized again in there to me, but never mentioned what she intends on doing because of it.

I responded back to her with my comments about the bullet points included in that article, and we'll see where that goes. I was stern in my comments but wasn't being a prick about it. She knows I'm hurt. She knows that her lying and betrayal have crushed me. She knows my trust for her is practically gone now.

My goal is for her to find a way to make better, and for our marriage to get back to what it was before Facebook and her little friends came into our lives.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

s0medude said:


> @Hicks & sadnlonely - I do like your ways about how I should be approaching this with her, but I already shared that article with her. I had to confront her about the possible EA she's having, and I shared that article with her because she loves Oprah and maybe that would help convince her. She didn't flip out at me about it at all, apologized again in there to me, but never mentioned what she intends on doing because of it.
> 
> I responded back to her with my comments about the bullet points included in that article, and we'll see where that goes. I was stern in my comments but wasn't being a prick about it. She knows I'm hurt. She knows that her lying and betrayal have crushed me. She knows my trust for her is practically gone now.
> 
> My goal is for her to find a way to make better, and for our marriage to get back to what it was before Facebook and her little friends came into our lives.



The way you are acting is letting he know that you value her more than she values you. If you're not willing to live with your wife in an EA then let it be known. How much further can you push her away? She slept at another guys house. Ask her straight up if she will toss the guy out of her life and focus on you and the marriage. If its not something she is willing to do then you have your marching orders.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Kobo said:


> The way you are acting is letting he know that you value her more than she values you. If you're not willing to live with your wife in an EA then let it be known. How much further can you push her away? She slept at another guys house. Ask her straight up if she will toss the guy out of her life and focus on you and the marriage. If its not something she is willing to do then you have your marching orders.


Point taken. Like I said, I want to give her the option of *wanting* to fix this. I want to see what she does with this mess first. If she shows no signs of wanting to fix anything, or if she thinks this is all "water under the bridge," then it's time to be more aggressive. Then I will go into the battle with that mentality.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Or as I shouted once to my wife in the midst of terrible row (I love that Britishism, rowww):

"I don't hate women, I ****ing hate you."


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

s0medude said:


> Point taken. Like I said, I want to give her the option of *wanting* to fix this. I want to see what she does with this mess first. If she shows no signs of wanting to fix anything, or if she thinks this is all "water under the bridge," then it's time to be more aggressive. Then I will go into the battle with that mentality.


Have you defined what your "fixed" marriage looks like? I know you said you want to go back to before facebook and friends but if you go back to that why wouldn't you end up in the same place after a while? You need to create a new dynamic in your relationship that begins with your defined boundaries. I wouldn't wait around for her to fix anything. Don't procrasitnate, today will never be here again.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

s0medude said:


> My goal is for her to find a way to make better, and for our marriage to get back to what it was before Facebook and her little friends came into our lives.


"The way" is for YOU to make it happen, by tolerating nothing else.

Why do you think she's attracted to other males? They don't sit around waiting for her to decide what to do.. They take action. That is what you are competing against.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

s0medude said:


> Point taken. Like I said, I want to give her the option of *wanting* to fix this. I want to see what she does with this mess first. If she shows no signs of wanting to fix anything, or if she thinks this is all "water under the bridge," then it's time to be more aggressive. Then I will go into the battle with that mentality.


I'm sorry. That is a failure mode. You have to show what you want, and give her the option of accepting your definition of marriage or not. 

She will not decide to fix or change until you show and portray that you cannot accept the marriage as it is. You will lose the battle of emotions vs logic if you are going to try to convince her or allow her to "make up her mind".


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

So how exactly do I go the route you guys are suggesting? What should I say to her?

She mentioned the other day that she hates ultimatums. I threw one out at her that she needs to figure this out (before the whole EA discussion ever took place), and instead of answering that she instead yelled "I hate ultimatums!" The last thing I want to do is push her farther away from me. Is it fair that she replies that way and doesn't say she's choosing me? Hell no.

So is it a good idea to throw another ultimatum at her, when she doesn't like it and thinks I'm even more controlling than she already thinks I am (even though I'm not).

/hurt&confused


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## Feta (Jun 15, 2011)

I stumbled on this website a few weeks back when looking for some parenting advice, after reading a few threads I got hooked. As a 38 year old dad of 3 year old twins, married for 5 years, I have learned a lot and am thankful to have found this raw resource. Many of the stories have some relevance to my life and has raised the awareness of my choices. I would like to thanks everyone for sharing their experiences / opinions which has helped enlighten me.

I have been shocked at how obvious situations are once you learn to recognize the signs / pattern (or script as they call it). Reading your thread is painful as it is a repeat of many of the sad stories told here. The best thing you can do for yourself is read as much as you can on this site about similar situations (search emotional affair) and get your head out of your ass and ahead of the curve. Please read this thread as I fear it is where your story is heading http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/14064-wife-having-emotional-affair-how-handle.html

I wish you nothing but the best but can tell you from experience that the nice guy routine is going to eat you alive. The only thing that has a chance of working is manning up and setting boundaries (again, do the research and find out what that means). Of course there are no guarantees but I can tell you if manning up does not work then the fact is you picked a loser.

The final thing I want to say is I know you are thinking "this guy does not know what he is talking about, I am man enough and I don't need some jerk telling me otherwise..." this is a defensive mechanism, you have to find a way to push out of your comfort zone. To grow and become the man you know you can be not the person life has squeezed you into. Again, the best way to do this is read, read, read, especially on this site. If you find a way to be honest with yourself and open to growing, you might be able to grow enough and in the process win your wife back.

Bahhh, this site is so frustrating, it makes me want to cry. It's like watching sleep walkers walk in front of an oncoming train.

Please read that link I posted, I'm no fortune teller but that is likely your story. There's so much more I want to say but being this is my first post, I'll shut up and let the experts spoon feed you, I just hope you can digest it fast enough.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

I plan on saying something tonight about how she must stop all communication with this guy.

But, what about the girlfriends of hers that are not trustworthy and who are a bad influence on her. Do I tell her that she must stop the friendship with them too? They're a part of the problem, because they had no problems spending that weekend with the OM & my wife. If they were really good friends, don't you think they would've said something like, "isn't this going to hurt your husband's feelings? Maybe we shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea and it may ruin your marriage."


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

s0medude said:


> I plan on saying something tonight about how she must stop all communication with this guy.
> 
> But, what about the girlfriends of hers that are not trustworthy and who are a bad influence on her. Do I tell her that she must stop the friendship with them too? They're a part of the problem, because they had no problems spending that weekend with the OM & my wife. If they were really good friends, don't you think they would've said something like, "isn't this going to hurt your husband's feelings? Maybe we shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea and it may ruin your marriage."


So sorry to see what you've uncovered. Its sickening, especially since you are willing to work so hard to fix things, and have always been so committed. My first thought is that these friends are definately not your friends. They supported her in spending the night in a place where she knew you were uncomfortable with. That said, maybe you should post in the Infidelity section. There are some great people who check this section out who have navigated the minefield you have encountered.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

somedude - listen to these people. Hicks is right. Look at the thread I started earlier today. You have to lay down the law. It's the only thing that works. You are the man. Be strong. My wife had an EA and lied to me about it until I caught her red handed. After another lesser lie (we are married 15 years) I told her one more lie about this and I will end it. Since then we have done extremely well, my wife is scared to ruin the family, we've had sex 6 nights in a row (not that this was our problem), and send lots of loving texts, etc during the day, we profess our love several times a day. 

It's because I stood up to the EA, told her I wouldn't accept it as part of our marriage. THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS. If your wife doesn't listen to this and keeps it going, then you have your answer and you have to end the relationship. 

I've seen so many stories on here of men playing the nice guy. SO MANY TIMES. They keep reassuring their wayward wives and saying, "I'm here for you when you are ready to stop having your affair". NO!! That is not the approach. You only say that ONCE THE AFFAIR IS OVER. People who keep reassuring their wives while the affair is ongoing are going to fail - at least that's what virtually every story on here has done. Don't reinforce bad behavior by imploring your wife to love you while she's being a bad girl. 

You can say, even during the affair, that you want the marriage to work, and are here to work on it. But be clear with your wife that this can't start until the affair is over. Beware, your wife my temporarily end the affair to placate you, then dive back in later. If that happens you have to rinse and repeat, or just end it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

s0medude said:


> But, what about the girlfriends of hers that are not trustworthy and who are a bad influence on her. Do I tell her that she must stop the friendship with them too? They're a part of the problem, because they had no problems spending that weekend with the OM & my wife. If they were really good friends, don't you think they would've said something like, "isn't this going to hurt your husband's feelings? Maybe we shouldn't do this, it's a bad idea and it may ruin your marriage."


Yes, she must stop all contact with these *TOXIC* friends. These toxic friends are not friends of the marriage, and they are *enabling her affair* by encouraging the affair and not discouraging it, and may also be *facilitating* it by providing alibis for her or even providing a place for them to meet. Frankly, I'd be upset seeing your WWs choice of friends. She probably has friends that would not encourage affairs, she just drifted away from them in favor of the ones that do enable her. Unfortunately she must go NC with them too. This must become one of your boundaries too.

If she accuses you of being controlling, then remind her who is endangering/destroying the marriage. Tell her either to choose them and the OM, or you. If she chooses her friends over you, then you have your answer. She is not worth having as a wife if she wants to associate with toxic friends who enable and facilitate affairs, instead of being married to you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

1) she must be completely and verfiably no conatct with the OM

2) anyone who enabled her affair has to be cut off as well.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Of course she hates utlimatums.
You are operating from the point of view of what she likes dislikes, and therefore you are swallowing your dislikes. 

Don't operate on what you think she wants or will tolerate, operate on what you want or will tolerate. IF you don't want her friends in the picture, thend make that one of your requirements.

Rather than ultimatums, what you are offering is an invitation. You are inviting her to join you in a strong marriage based on the vows you took and the standards of treatment you expect.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Agreed, all of this hammering on the table and making absolute demands is just fury with a new name.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Feta said:


> I stumbled on this website a few weeks back when looking for some parenting advice, after reading a few threads I got hooked. As a 38 year old dad of 3 year old twins, married for 5 years, I have learned a lot and am thankful to have found this raw resource. Many of the stories have some relevance to my life and has raised the awareness of my choices. I would like to thanks everyone for sharing their experiences / opinions which has helped enlighten me.
> 
> I have been shocked at how obvious situations are once you learn to recognize the signs / pattern (or script as they call it). Reading your thread is painful as it is a repeat of many of the sad stories told here. The best thing you can do for yourself is read as much as you can on this site about similar situations (search emotional affair) and get your head out of your ass and ahead of the curve. Please read this thread as I fear it is where your story is heading http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/14064-wife-having-emotional-affair-how-handle.html
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Yes, she must stop all contact with these *TOXIC* friends. These toxic friends are not friends of the marriage, and they are *enabling her affair* by encouraging the affair and not discouraging it, and may also be *facilitating* it by providing alibis for her or even providing a place for them to meet. Frankly, I'd be upset seeing your WWs choice of friends. She probably has friends that would not encourage affairs, she just drifted away from them in favor of the ones that do enable her. Unfortunately she must go NC with them too. This must become one of your boundaries too.
> 
> *If she accuses you of being controlling, then remind her who is endangering/destroying the marriage. Tell her either to choose them and the OM, or you. If she chooses her friends over you, then you have your answer. She is not worth having as a wife if she wants to associate with toxic friends who enable and facilitate affairs, instead of being married to you.*


Very true. You really only get one good shot at this. No point in "compromising". Your relationship has already been compromised. Time to define what is *all the way right for you*. She changed the rules without consulting you. She actively enabled all of the this every step of the way. Even put in the hard work to get in shape for it all. A comscious effort at some point for sure. So don't settle for anything less than what you need in the marriage.


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## s0medude (Jun 10, 2011)

Sorry for not responding in a couple days. I went to our old marriage counselor today, by myself, and divulged all that has recently transpired in my life. She informed me that I need to back off and give my W space, which is what my W has been asking for all along. I will give her space. I was told that a month would be feasible, and that after that month is over my W needs to give me a definitive answer whether to fix the marriage or get a divorce. I still don't know if I have the balls to pump an ultimatum like that one onto my wife, but we both know it's not fair to keep me in limbo like this.

I also learned that my wife loves me but isn't "in love" with me, something I've read a lot on this board. She still says "I love you" to me, gives me hugs and kisses when we're coming/going, but she says she lost that passion for me that she once had.

Will giving her space really work? My counselor says it's been known to work, she just couldn't guarantee it (which makes sense).


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> Sorry for not responding in a couple days. I went to our old marriage counselor today, by myself, and divulged all that has recently transpired in my life. She informed me that I need to back off and give my W space, which is what my W has been asking for all along. I will give her space. I was told that a month would be feasible, and that after that month is over my W needs to give me a definitive answer whether to fix the marriage or get a divorce. I still don't know if I have the balls to pump an ultimatum like that one onto my wife, but we both know it's not fair to keep me in limbo like this.
> 
> I also learned that my wife loves me but isn't "in love" with me, something I've read a lot on this board. She still says "I love you" to me, gives me hugs and kisses when we're coming/going, but she says she lost that passion for me that she once had.
> 
> Will giving her space really work? My counselor says it's been known to work, she just couldn't guarantee it (which makes sense).


WOW. UFB. Giving space usually enables an affair. Allowing contact and not stopping immediately only allows this to turn into a PA versus an EA. The ILYBAMNILWY means that her dopamine is being supplied by another male. That trumps being loved.

I await others to reply. I see the advice to back off as counter productive.

So you are supposed to go along with her behavior? I am not an MC, but personally I would not allow the affair to continue. The MC is assuming that it is better for the affair to continue and burn out. Sorry I am not that kind of guy. I doubt you are either but we shall see.

Are we assuming this affair has gone physical already?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

s0medude said:


> Sorry for not responding in a couple days. I went to our old marriage counselor today, by myself, and divulged all that has recently transpired in my life. She informed me that I need to back off and give my W space, which is what my W has been asking for all along. I will give her space. I was told that a month would be feasible, and that after that month is over my W needs to give me a definitive answer whether to fix the marriage or get a divorce. I still don't know if I have the balls to pump an ultimatum like that one onto my wife, but we both know it's not fair to keep me in limbo like this.
> 
> I also learned that my wife loves me but isn't "in love" with me, something I've read a lot on this board. She still says "I love you" to me, gives me hugs and kisses when we're coming/going, *but she says she lost that passion for me that she once had.*
> 
> Will giving her space really work? My counselor says it's been known to work, she just couldn't guarantee it (which makes sense).


This is how it goes. Normal evolution of things. Why woman often go after another male to fullfill her. You have to keep falling in love through out your realtionship. That takes lots of work. 

I have been married for a loooonnnnnngggggg time. I can honestly say that over the past two months my relationship has really heated up again and is very passionate. I took the steps to make this happen. I had to work at it to get that fire going again. You cannot just put a marriage in auto-pilot.


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## Prometheus Pyrphoros (Jun 16, 2011)

After one month her reply is more likely to be negative. She is idealizing the other guy and only looks for bad things in you, therefore the ultimatums will have the wrong effect. She is distancing herself for a reason. Time is not on your side.
Perhaps it would be possible for the two of you to take a break from all this mess for a short while (thus separating her from her friends and that guy), go away somewhere together, free your minds and try to restart the spark?
May wisdom choose your actions and courage see them through.

--
Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Prometheus Pyrphoros said:


> After one month her reply is more likely to be negative. She is idealizing the other guy and only looks for bad things in you, therefore the ultimatums will have the wrong effect. She is distancing herself for a reason. Time is not on your side.
> Perhaps it would be possible for the two of you to take a break from all this mess for a short while (thus separating her from her friends and that guy), go away somewhere together, free your minds and try to restart the spark?
> May wisdom choose your actions and courage see them through.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. I suspect the MC figured he might lose the ultimatum. Since time is not on his side, he really needs to take action and not back away. I totally agree the way to back away is actually to engage in the manner you suggest. Maneuver ... not back away.

Isolate her from the other guy and work on their marriage.


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