# He's leaving



## tobio

He is leaving.

The girl/kiss/lack of affection/blah blah blah were never really the issues. The issue WAS, in a nutshell, the fact he can't reconcile the fact I already had children and "our" family. The worst thing is that I could not MAKE that decision for him. That was entirely up to him.

This weekend, were he not leaving, was the shining light. He opened up so much, that alone could have saved our relationship if this wasn't such a massive thing for him. He spilled his guts; he cannot bear to see me in such pain from what he did, he says he can't live with knowing he single-handedly destroyed my faith in him. That he loves me so much and always will, and if we hated each other it would be so much easier to make a decision. He has stayed trying to work through his feelings but it grows harder and harder every day and he is so unhappy.

Things are still very raw and not even all decided yet, but the initial plan is that he will move in to share a house with his best friend's uncle who lives round the corner. He wants to have our oldest every day straight from work, and for him to sleep there, then the baby as well once baby is not so dependent on me for feeding.

He is in bits about it, like me. Earlier, I was very upset and he said, if I wanted him to stay, he would stay. It was SO HARD but I said, I wanted him to be happy more than I wanted me to be happy and if leaving was what he felt he had to do, then what was what he needed to do. If he was going to be here, it had to be because he wanted to.

I feel so sad, and angry. Angry at him, but I feel his pain too. He keeps saying he doesn't want to leave, he doesn't want to leave me, but he can't see another way. I just feel I'm being punished for decisions I made way before we ever got together. He says it's nothing to do with me, not anything I've done, or my oldest two, it's just his feelings in his head. He said he thought he was poisin infecting everything, and I didn't deserve to be unhappy because of him.

I think he needs to go. I think he has to do it to know, wholeheartedly, what it is like. It doesn't stop me feeling so incredibly sad though


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## Therealbrighteyes

He isn't leaving because of your pain, my dear. He is leaving because he is a coward and does not want to face what he has done. He isn't poison to you, you are poison to him. He wants you to rug sweep and never bring this up again and since you cannot and rightfully so, he has decided to move on all under the guise that he is somehow some noble person caring about your pain. He isn't. His ego feeding is the most important thing to him. Right now, his ego isn't being fed by you. He has to see your pain and suffering and that makes him feel bad. Not for you, for him. His ego took a hit when all of a sudden his wife views him differently and not some Knight in shining armour. He needs that again. Sticking around only makes him realize how badly he let all of you down. He leaves and your pain suddenly goes away. It doesn't, it only makes him not have to see what he has done. Walking away is easy, sticking around to make things right is hard, too hard for him. His talking about your other children is very telling. I doubt they suddenly jumped out of a closet and yelled surprise after he had already committed to you. He knew you were a package deal and that was okay with him back then. Now all of a sudden you having children from another man is a dealbreaker? Of course it is. Now he can toss the blame on you and say that what you did in your past makes him unable to continue to be with you. Since you had children prior to meeting him, since you cannot "get over" what he has done and since he cannot stand to see you in pain, he needs to leave. Nothing is his fault, it's blameshifting 101.
Let me be blunt, he doesn't give a rat's a$$ if you or your children are in pain, he only cares if he is. He is no longer viewed on a pedestal and he cannot stand it. Walking away is the easiest way to have to never experience that again. Let him, not for his sake, for yours.
And yes, I hope he reads this.


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## Affaircare

:FIREdevil: 

I'm sorry but I am so angry right now I can't reply very clearly, but I have never heard so much :bsflag: in my life. 

He knew you had other children before he married you. He made a covenant to be with only you through all the circumstances of life knowing that you had other children! He made MORE children with you!!! This is nothing but being a wimp and I'm so mad at him for being a coward that I just can not be objective. 

HE made this mess, and rather than being a man and sticking around to clean up the mess he's made, he's running away. 

:soapbox:


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## sisters359

Yep, this is pretty much the evidence you need to know he had already checked out and was looking for a way out, enjoying another woman's attention, etc. Do not buy this crap. The problem was not your other children. The problem is he doesn't want to be a grown up. Ugh, what a weak, spineless person. I hope you will come to realize that you are going to be SO much better off without him. Take the time to figure out how you missed the evidence of his immaturity and take the time to learn to love being on your own. If you do, I guarantee you will not give up that freedom for anyone who does not TRULY deserve it. God bless you in this new life venture.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Affaircare said:


> :FIREdevil:
> 
> I'm sorry but I am so angry right now I can't reply very clearly, but I have never heard so much :bsflag: in my life.
> 
> He knew you had other children before he married you. He made a covenant to be with only you through all the circumstances of life knowing that you had other children! He made MORE children with you!!! This is nothing but being a wimp and I'm so mad at him for being a coward that I just can not be objective.
> 
> HE made this mess, and rather than being a man and sticking around to clean up the mess he's made, he's running away.
> 
> :soapbox:


AC,
AGREED!
When caught he blameshifts and makes it about the other person. Once he realized that his number was up and that she will feel pain, he leaves, although it wasn't about her pain, it was about his. He doesn't want to feel bad for any of his actions. Nothing, literally nothing. Now? He justifies his behavior by saying that because she had children prior to meeting him, the relationship will not work, again like they sprung up out of a closet and yelled surprise. Anybody remember Teflon Don? That is this "man". Nothing sticks and nothing is his fault.


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## tobio

Wow. I didn't expect those responses!

He came back from a bedtime drive to his mums with the babies, came in and sat with me. I asked had he told his mum, he said yes. 

What did she say? asked I. She was worried, about me, how I would manage, how I would afford stuff. Then he said he couldn't do it. He couldn't leave. He couldn't leave me.

I said he knew how I felt, and that I just wanted him to be happy. I didn't want him to be here out of obligation.

He's gone out for an hour or two now to meet his friend. I don't want to second-guess how he'll be feeling when he gets back...


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## golfergirl

tobio said:


> He is leaving.
> 
> The girl/kiss/lack of affection/blah blah blah were never really the issues. The issue WAS, in a nutshell, the fact he can't reconcile the fact I already had children and "our" family. The worst thing is that I could not MAKE that decision for him. That was entirely up to him.
> 
> This weekend, were he not leaving, was the shining light. He opened up so much, that alone could have saved our relationship if this wasn't such a massive thing for him. He spilled his guts; he cannot bear to see me in such pain from what he did, he says he can't live with knowing he single-handedly destroyed my faith in him. That he loves me so much and always will, and if we hated each other it would be so much easier to make a decision. He has stayed trying to work through his feelings but it grows harder and harder every day and he is so unhappy.
> 
> Things are still very raw and not even all decided yet, but the initial plan is that he will move in to share a house with his best friend's uncle who lives round the corner. He wants to have our oldest every day straight from work, and for him to sleep there, then the baby as well once baby is not so dependent on me for feeding.
> 
> He is in bits about it, like me. Earlier, I was very upset and he said, if I wanted him to stay, he would stay. It was SO HARD but I said, I wanted him to be happy more than I wanted me to be happy and if leaving was what he felt he had to do, then what was what he needed to do. If he was going to be here, it had to be because he wanted to.
> 
> I feel so sad, and angry. Angry at him, but I feel his pain too. He keeps saying he doesn't want to leave, he doesn't want to leave me, but he can't see another way. I just feel I'm being punished for decisions I made way before we ever got together. He says it's nothing to do with me, not anything I've done, or my oldest two, it's just his feelings in his head. He said he thought he was poisin infecting everything, and I didn't deserve to be unhappy because of him.
> 
> I think he needs to go. I think he has to do it to know, wholeheartedly, what it is like. It doesn't stop me feeling so incredibly sad though


Are you ok with him taking both kids? He doesn't seem very hands on at home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal

I especially liked how he said he'll stay if you wanted him to stay. The man can't even make his own damn decision to leave. Proven by the part where his mommy made him feel guilty.

What a spineless, wimpy, coward!!!


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## Affaircare

Okay I am taking a deep breath...

...and exhaling. Another deep breath....

...and exhaling. 


Alrighty then, let's look this over with our "Reality Glasses" on shall we?



> He spilled his guts; he cannot bear to see me in such pain from what he did, he says he can't live with knowing he single-handedly destroyed my faith in him.


I can understand that this is hard--I've been in his shoes and know what it's like to look in the face of my spouse and see that hurt! I also know what it's like to feel like an absolute worm because I was the one to put that hurt in his eyes. BUT the solution is not to pile more hurt on by leaving! The solution is to be brave and honor my commitment even though I screwed up royally. The solution is to rebuild the faith by living every day, day-by-day, doing the right thing and actually BEING honest and faithful!!! Then day-by-day showing him where I honestly was, what I did, what I thought and what I felt. 

In real life what he's saying here is "I know I acted badly but it hurts to see in your face that I'm imperfect every day so I'm going to cut off your face so I don't see it." DUDE that is just not the solution!!



> That he loves me so much and always will, and if we hated each other it would be so much easier to make a decision.


Ummmmm...no. Love is not a feeling or a warm spot in your heart for someone. Love is an ACTION and his actions toward you are not loving. His actions toward you have been selfish and hurtful. So this is :bsflag: and I'd call him on it. Love is an ACTION so if he really means this, it means he has to put his dedication to you AHEAD OF how uncomfortable it makes him. When the rubber hits the road, a man or woman of character would demonstrate their love by doing what benefits their spouse even if it is difficult for them or hurts some. 

In real life what he's saying here is "I'm about to destroy your world and the world of our children, but to ease my own discomfort I'm going to throw a word out there that is all warm and fuzzy. But I intend to still act selfishly and hope you fall for my flowery words." :bsflag: :bsflag: :bsflag:



> He has stayed trying to work through his feelings but it grows harder and harder every day and he is so unhappy.


And so since *HE* accepted affection from someone other than his spouse, and *HE *gave his loyalty to someone other than his spouse, and *HE *toyed with moving that line inch-by-inch, and *HE *let things go too far, and *HE *hurt you by not protecting you from himself, and *HE *destroyed your faith and trust...He's unhappy so poor him, he gets to abandon his covenant now. "BULL PUCKY," I say! He is unhappy because he's trying to justify what he knows is wrong. He is unhappy because he covets the life is friends' have. He is unhappy because he's looking for an excuse so he can continue that type of flirty behavior and get his fix! He is unhappy because it's time to grow up and be a mature adult, not a teen anymore...and he doesn't want to! He is unhappy because rather than building a secure, loving, sexy relationship with his wife, he is CHOOSING to do what's wrong, covet, look for excuses, flirt, and avoid growing up! HIS choice. Leaving his wife and children DOES NOT EQUAL "being happy"!!! :banghead: 

In real life what he's saying is "I want to keep being flirty and getting my ego stroked by other women because it made me feel good. I know, I'll let others 'make' me happy or not so that I'm not responsible for my own self, and that way I can blame them! That way I can do what's wrong and make them guilty all while I avoid personal responsibility for my own feelings."

If he really wants to be happy, here's how: 1) Stop doing what he knows is wrong. 2) Accept the consequences of the previous wrong choices. 3) Stop coveting the fake image that others have and learn to find joy in the giggling of his children and the smile of his wife. 4) Flirt with his wife and romance her like she was his girlfriend. 5) Honor his promises and be a man of his word! 



> Things are still very raw and not even all decided yet, but the initial plan is that he will move in to share a house with his best friend's uncle who lives round the corner. *He wants to have our oldest every day straight from work, and for him to sleep there, then the baby as well once baby is not so dependent on me for feeding.*


Well I can tell you right now that if your oldest sleeps overnight with him every night, then you'll get little or no child support to raise your children. So this "generous offer" is not 'Hey honey, I'm thinking of you and the burden to you' but rather a manipulative way to say "I have the oldest 365 overnights a year your honor, so I don't owe any child support." This INFURIATES me because he tried to wrap it in the appearance of "being thoughtful" and in real life again it is all about HIM!!!

So here's my thought, and although I am still very angry with him, I do believe I am at least rational now. If I were in your shoes I would tell him to his face he's being a coward and running away. If he intends to run you can not stop him, but what you can say is that if he leaves, the kids are not going with him...that you will not weaken your financial or legal position for his comfort. If he wants to destroy the family he will have to do that on his own, move out on his own, and face the consequences that a judge will enforce upon him for supporting the children he is CHOOSING to abandon. If he moves out you will file for legal separation and allow a court to decide when the oldest and infant "visit" him and enforce what the child support will be as a garnishment. And that until the courts enter a temporary order, there will not be overnights PERIOD. 

RRRRRRR issed:


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## LonelyNLost

Wow, this mirrors my situation. Almost down to the words. Everything except the excuse about the kids is my exact thing I'm going through. Except my H is currently in an EA with an ex girlfriend, though he won't admit it. And he's using his EA 4 years ago as his reason for needing to go. It is all about the hurt he is causing me. But the real reason is that he isn't on the pedestal and he can't handle it. I feel really enlightened right now. I've tried to call him on all of it to no avail. I kept snooping and got too close to the truth about him and the ex gf and now he wants a divorce. But he can't even say it to my face. He texts me that he is "done" and we are "irreconcilable". But it's all about him.

SPINELESS COWARDS. That's what it boils down to.


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## michzz

OK, I can see that he is a piece of work. However, what is wrong with him seeing his kid every night?

Besides the financials that is.

Is he a rotten father? I get it that he is a rotten husband, btw.


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## Catherine602

Tabio A man who uses children to escape responsibilities is a weak selfish man. You have a lovely warm nature so you still feel sympathy for him instead of outrage that he would blame your children for his decision to abandon his family.

He does not deserve your sympathy he is manipulating you because he knows your kind nature. 

He is abandoning a family he knowingly started be cause he has decided he likes his ego stroked more than taking care of his responsibilities. 

The BS about loving you and not wanting to see you in pain is a snow job. Sounds wonderful, he is gutting you and abandoning his family because he does not want to hurt you. Did you ever hear of anything so contrived and foolish. 

This is what he is doing and this is who he is - He is abandoning a woman he had two children with while one child is still an infant. How does that sound - makes him a pretty bad man. He can spin that story to his friends and family to make himself the one needing the sympathy but you don't buy it. 

Don't believe it and don't even repeat it to him or to anyone when they ask what happen - tell the truth he abandoned an infant and child so that he could be free to have his ego stroked. This is who he is. He may not like the person he is but he has to own it and not put it on innocent kids.

Tabio - I think you should quietly tell him that the lie he tells himself may convince him but this is who he is - a man who abandons an infant daughter and a small child and blames it on pre-existing children because he wants to be free to have his ego stroked.

He may find it hard to look at himself, but you see him and so will everyone else. Tell him to cut the bull and own up to they type of person he is. 

Please don't be snowed, go right away to have legal papers drawn up for support. This man will at first seem responsible but as soon as the financial burden cramps his free lifestyle he will come up with a justification for cutting off support. You must protect your self. 

You are being too emotionally open and trusting with him. He doe not have your interest in mind, he is looking for a way out. He is a very self-centered, manipulative, self delusional man. You are waiting for him to decide about your life and your kids lives - he will keep you dangling on a string until he finds a way out with as little guilt as possible. 

He "decided" to stay because he looked bad to his mother for abandoning his family. So now he is staying until he can think up some other story. Don't make it easy for him and don't let him play with your emotions. Disengage from him emotionally he is not with you anymore. You have to take care of you now. 

Let him do the leaving but, while he is there get ready for his leaving because he will leave. Carefully plan how you will get set up financially, get all the info you need - he will try to trick you so that he has to pay as little as possible don't let him do it. Nothing he does is for you but for him. 

Make it very clear to him that no matter where he is or what he decides to do he cannot escape the responsibility of two children and he will need to take care of them. 

You as their mother will make sure of that since he is not enough of a man to take care of his family.


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## Catherine602

michzz said:


> OK, I can see that he is a piece of work. However, what is wrong with him seeing his kid every night?
> 
> Besides the financials that is.
> 
> Is he a rotten father? I get it that he is a rotten husband, btw.


He is a rotten father he abandoned his family. 

Don't let him have your kids every night, he wants to avoid financial responsibility, this arrangement is temporary. He does not want to be burdened with kids every knight when he starts dating. 

Believe me he has intension of having kids every night. He stop wanting them when he has gotten out of child support on this ruse. He is thinking of how to save money so he has enough to fund his new lifestyle and it does not include kids every night.

Be careful everything he does is for him not you or your kids. He is trying to get out of paying for his decisions don't let him you cant escape them and neither should he.


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## michzz

I must have missed something here. I saw no where that this cheating husband is looking for a way to stiff her for child support.

It looks more like he wants custody.

So that is why I asked what I did.

Is he a rotten father or good one?

Has he done anything to make it not right for him to have his children overnight?

And don't use his cheating as the reason. I have a cheating wife.

Those children are as much his as yours.


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## golfergirl

michzz said:


> I must have missed something here. I saw no where that this cheating husband is looking for a way to stiff her for child support.
> 
> It looks more like he wants custody.
> 
> So that is why I asked what I did.
> 
> Is he a rotten father or good one?
> 
> Has he done anything to make it not right for him to have his children overnight?
> 
> And don't use his cheating as the reason. I have a cheating wife.
> 
> Those children are as much his as yours.


He refuses to help with baby one night a week or one morning so Tobio can catch up on sleep. Who will care for kids when he needs his sleep in?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

I didn't read that in this thread anywhere.

So if it is in a different thread, so be it.

He'll figure out that he can't be selfish or he will give up his wish to parent overnight.

If it is merely financial cynicism, then he a pretty rotten.

If he genuinely wants to see his kids and the dynamic was between he and his wife based on his perception of his time versus hers, that is a different thing entirely.


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## golfergirl

michzz said:


> I didn't read that in this thread anywhere.
> 
> So if it is in a different thread, so be it.
> 
> He'll figure out that he can't be selfish or he will give up his wish to parent overnight.
> 
> If it is merely financial cynicism, then he a pretty rotten.
> 
> If he genuinely wants to see his kids and the dynamic was between he and his wife based on his perception of his time versus hers, that is a different thing entirely.


The background is here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/22858-so-angry-what-can-i-do.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

I can’t see how “flaming” Tobio’s OH helps either Tobio or her OH. I really can’t see that. I just can’t see how it helps.

They’re going through “stuff”. Part of all that “stuff” is a readjustment to the life’s circumstances that they find themselves in and what it means for the “future”. Marriages have survived a lot worse and come out the other side for the better. 

Bob


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## Trenton

Tobio, I'm so sorry you're going through this. 

Honestly, he doesn't realize it but he's giving you a gift by leaving. He is a selfish man who is incapable of even recognizing his part in his own life. I know you two haven't married either so it is one less thing you will have to deal with.

You need to find out about child support and make sure that you legally get what you need to raise your child with him. I know now is the last time you feel like being pragmatic but it is the best thing for you to do. Also, if you are comfortable with him seeing the children as often as he'd like that's great but make sure to get visitation/custody type issues court mandated as well.

He's proven he's untrustworthy, unreliable and selfish. Don't let him screw over your family because you love him and want to believe he is a better man than he is. He isn't. He's shown you this way too many times now.

Be strong and go after the things in your life that you deserve and desire. You will get through this.


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## tobio

Thank you for all the replies. The kids are on school holidays so is pretty hectic here but will fit in as much as I can so here goes...

At the moment he isn't leaving. He came back last night quite vague. Happy to talk but his heart doesn't seem set on either staying OR leaving. I almost felt like he was leaning to ME because he isn't sure what to do. He said when we're spending time together, talking and stuff, it confuses him because it makes him think of what he would be missing.

I still feel in limbo because it is apparent he hasn't fully committed to staying. I am mentally taking a step back until he makes a firm commitment either way.

A few points... He does pull his weight at home. The only thing in that regard I had a problem with WAS his getting up one morning and supporting me catching up on sleep. In other respects he picks up the slack with chores and is VERY hands- on with the babies.

He is a good dad. He adores the toddler and when he is at home, they are inseparable. It would kill him to be away from his kids.

I genuinely don't think this is about him wanting to go off and get his manly attention. I don't. I really think he is having basically an early midlife crisis really. He has stopped and taken a look at his life and realised, hang on, is this what I want- rightly or wrongly. I am starting to realise that I don't deserve to be treated like this- he has said that yet he continues to-ing and fro-ing. I don't know what to expect by way of a full and firm commitment- if it comes.

I don't think he has even entertained the idea of changing how he responds to the situation. To him, he feels resentful, he can't or won't work round that. I don't know.


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## Jellybeans

tobio said:


> He keeps saying he doesn't want to leave, he doesn't want to leave me, but he can't see another way.


It's a BS excuse. He is grasping trying to find a reason and excuse for his wanting out.

Open the door for him and let him go. 

He can't even respect you enough to tell you he wants out because HE wants out, and not deflect and find an excuse for it... 

You are better off, trust me. ((Hugs))


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## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> I can’t see how “flaming” Tobio’s OH helps either Tobio or her OH. I really can’t see that. I just can’t see how it helps.
> 
> They’re going through “stuff”. Part of all that “stuff” is a readjustment to the life’s circumstances that they find themselves in and what it means for the “future”. Marriages have survived a lot worse and come out the other side for the better.
> 
> Bob


What is flammng?. Do you mean alerting a very sweet and nurturing women that her husband is snowing her? Not saying anything would be like watching a person walk in front of a train. Marriages with more severe problems may survive but the chances of Tabio getting screwed out of support by this man is high. He is self-centered, by his own admission wants to be free of his family, he has shown little interest in caring for his kids until now and needs money to fund his new lifestyle. 

Who would not let her know what we see. She is smart e ough to consider it. She seems to think that his explanations are ligitimate they are not. Any man who is self centered enough to leave a woman with an infant to avoid facing a stupid choice to cheat is a bad man. Based on his present behavior, there is no reson to beleive that he intends to support his wife and kids. He know that the financial burden will limit his new life. He can walk away but he pays the consequences for his choice. There is no reason why his wife and kids should be the ones to suffer. 

If I have the definition of flamming correct, the alert must be strong or she won't get it, she and her kids are mire important than he is. They are standing on the brink of poverty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Is is buddy the one that has no kids? You said he mentioned that previously. This guy and his wife have no kids and are having lots of fun. He may be getting support for abandoning his family from his friend and from his mother a call to responsibility. 

You are leaving it totally up to him. Does that mean no matter how he vasalates and ignores the pain he brings you that you will hang around. Some limits needs to be set, if he choses to stay because you are second best not because he loves you, he will leave eventually when he can. Why let him decide, you decide your limits and set them and act on them. You are at this point allowing yourself to be serve as the default person not the main. If you are second in his mind he will find someone who will take the first position. 

I am concerned that you will not believe he will leave until it actually happens and you will not be prepared legally or mentally. He appears to have checked out and he is not confused he is not or concerned about you or the child that clings to him or he would never contemplate leaving them. He is worried about himself only.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

Well it looks like I won't be waiting for him to make a decision.

After I posted earlier, I found out that he has been... texting "that" girl. I was so infuriated- this was three days ago and he didn't mention a thing about it, a text, late Friday evening. I went and put his stuff in bin liners and put them in the wardrobe.

He came back. We chatted for a bit and I engineered the conversation around to yesterday. I laid it on thick- I said I'd been chatting to a friend, told OH I felt bad that I'd been so untrusting of him, that it seemed our situation was never about what happened with the girl but other things. I wanted to see if he'd 'fess up.

He stopped me and told me she'd been texting him today. He'd deleted them and didn't reply. Apparently fairly innocent stuff, how are you, that sort of thing. I asked how come he'd deleted them when I specifically requested that after last time, he kept anything from her so I could see. He says he forgot about it. he also told me that all the guys at work had found outand he's been getting a right ribbing all last week, they won't leave it alone.

He wasn't going to say anything. I told him I had something for him upstairs, we went up, he asked what? I opened the wardrobe- "your stuff"- and threw it on the bed. His face... well, let's say it was a mix of complete surprise and horror. I said I knew he'd been texting her, and I'd had it, don't let the door hit your a** on the way out...

Apparently I had to "let him explain..." Seems he got home from the pub, was hammered and texted her. Says he didn't mean anything by it (notice a pattern here?), woke up Saturday morning, and felt that wave of dread when he realised what he'd done. Didn't tell me because he knew how hurt I'd be. And the best bit... You know how his friends have been ribbing him about it all week poor thing, well, he texted her (not meaning anything by it obviously "I hear you've been missing me..."

Then it all came tumbling out... Yesterday made him realise how much he loved me, how he realised what a good thing he had here, no one had ever loved him like I did, we've been through some hard times together and come out the other side, ,<insert 
cliche here>, <insert another heartwrending cliche here>

Oh and he hopes she rots in hell... He never liked her anyway, he didn't know what he was thinking, he was drunk and you know how you do stupid things when you're drunk... He asked do I hate him? No, I just feel sorry for you actually.

I thought I'd be terribly upset but I'm not. I feel kind of detached actually. I told him he could text her all he wanted now, he said he wasn't interested in her, he wanted me. I said well, for someone you're not interested in, she's sure played a big part in all this.

I pointed out that you don't text someone you don't care about, especially with that, yet he is STILL coming up with this, "I don't know why I did it." Well it's bloody blatantly obvious to EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD EXCEPT YOU, you like the attention. BIG problem.

What a d!ck.


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## LonelyNLost

Good for you tobio! Wish I had done that long ago, then I wouldn't be sitting in this position I'm in. Stay strong!


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## Therealbrighteyes

Tobio,
He is saying everything you want to hear. The moment the dust settles down again, he will start up with her. He is a liar, manipulator and a cheat. If he told you the sky was blue, you might want to check for yourself.
Stay vigilant.


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## tobio

Brennan

I know. I should clarify- he's gone. He's gone to stay with his mum. Don't know if that was clear from what I wrote.


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## Affaircare

Okay quick note #1--I'm not flaming her husband. I am angry with him due to his choice to leave, and using flowery words to cover up "I'm leaving because I'm not man enough to stay and clean up the mess I've made." If he said that straight to her face, I can't say I'd agree with his choice but at least he'd have [email protected] enough to speak the truth...and that I could admire. Running away is not courageous. Making a mistake--admitting the mistake--and accepting the consequences of the mistake IS COURAGEOUS. 

Quick note #2--I'm not saying he should have custody or visitation or encouraging her to keep the children from him. No. I personally believe he should be made very clear that leaving does not mean "I get to leave all my responsibilities now". Rather, I wanted to point out to her that courts and judges decide child support based on where the kids are OVERNIGHT. So if he has two children with her and he has one every night over night, but doesn't help in any other way...he can go for MUCH less child support based on "over night." So again all this flowery talk could be a cover for saving himself child support money. 

So don't be fooled and don't think: "Oh he wouldn't do that to me." BALONEY! A month ago she would have said "He wouldn't cheat on me" too. When people cheat, they do things that are not their usual character...so be on guard. 

That's all I meant.


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## LonelyNLost

^^ I agree. I would never have guessed my H would treat me like this and completely disregard me. Then he goes and leaves custody paperwork in my car asking for the kids 6 overnights in a two week period because "that's what the courts want". I went and saw a lawyer who said it was rubbish. That would put him right at the threshold he needs to only pay $200 per month for two kids as opposed to the $851 he'd pay for two kids with a dad schedule. Then I negotiated a dad schedule. 

I have no idea what this journey has in store. He's in the fog and acting so uncharacteristically. I don't know this guy. I don't know what he's capable of or what he'll try to do to me next. So I'm keeping my guard up and watching each step.


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## Catherine602

I feel so sad to read this. Notice he says no one ever loved him like you. Strange thing to say another example of self - centeredness, does he love you? 

Eventually he will regret his choice. His friends are egging him on and among them, he is a hero. But his friends won't pay the price for his folly. He is a hollo man.

Please don't let him back, you will get the same no matter what he says. He will make a woe is me and that you are being unfair to him. Tabio, whenever he starts with that garbage, cut him off and in a clear and strong voice tell him he knows he is a coward and has no honor. 

Tell him clearly that he knows what kind of man he is, one who who abandoned two children one an infant. Ask him how hard is it for him to pretend to be a man and know he comes up short compared to other men. 

Tell him he will have to live with himself no matter how he spins the story to his buddies down at the station. 

It will take a while but, he will deeply regret what he has done. A man who leaves his kids is a shame and not much of a man. He knows that on some level and it will haunt him. As for the girl, he will get together with her probably because she will rush to console him. 

She has to be crazy to invove herself with a man who cheats and abandons the mother of his infant child and who will be saddled with child support for 2 kids for 18 yrs. I hope she has a high salary, she will free up money for him to pay you in their shared expenses.  

Some woman are very stupid, but that's her problem, she will realize she can do much better. Many of the woman he thinks he will attract will think twice about a man like that. 

Get legal help fast this is going to get nasty I think.


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## tobio

You see, that is what is killing me. The thought I've sent him off and he's probably texting her now. Justifying it in his head that I don't want him- and of course, technically it shouldn't matter.

The "no one ever loved me like you have", he was saying he'd never had a long-term relationship before. His parents were divorced and he hardly saw his dad. He was a nightmare for his mum I gather. He's only had short-term g/fs prior to meeting me and never really been that invested in a relationship before. He said he loved me more than anything and always will do.

The crazy thing is, I do love him so much. I could probably accept him making a mistake, to err is human after all and I'm certainly not perfect. What niggles away is the "little" things, the actions and the constant proclamations that they don't mean anything, or that he doesn't know why he did them. All I foresee if we stayed together is more of this. I don't know that, say, next week he won't have a few too many beers and decide to text her again, albeit in complete "innocence." For whatever reason he cannot or does not want to verbalise WHY he continues to do these things. The impression I got was that had I not found out about his texting, he would not have told me. I honestly (and obviously naively) thought he was being completely transparent.

I think he is in the fog but in complete denial about it. He swears he has no feelings for her; he will go so far as to admit he liked the attention and it stroked his ego but won't admit to feeling anything right now *shrugs* I may be off on that but that's how it looks to me.

Ah well...


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## Affaircare

By the way I am so sorry Tobio, but I do think you handled it as well as could be expected. I realize this is SO HARD and hurts like the ****ens but I would like to encourage you to consider making no big decisions now while you are all upset. 

I believe if he can get past the addicted feeling of the affair, he'll realize what he's going to lose by acting this way. *Let him feel it* and let him hurt...but then re-read the part about being gracious (my last post on your other thread). For now, you are handling it well and I would encourage you to "give in" only when he DEMONSTRATES an actual change in the way he acts...not when he make empty promises. When you see actions of being sorry, being transparent, being willing to work on the issues...then consider heading to reconciling. Until then take the stance of Mama Bear protecting her cubs (your family) from someone who, at this moment, is trying to hurt them.

You will be able to tell when there's been an actual change because it will sound like this:

_Honey, I completely take responsibility for my actions. I chose to call her and I made that choice selfishly because it made me feel good. I knew what I was doing and I did it anyway even though I knew it was wrong. I'm sure that made you feel abandoned, unloved, less-than and scared, and it kills me that I treated the mother of my children like that. Would you consider forgiving me? My plan is to change my cell phone number and maybe even give it to you, to show you my emails and ask the boss to never, ever have to work there again, and I'll even tell him WHY because it's on my head! I understand you may need some time after what I've put you through so I encourage you to do whatever you have to do and ask me anything you need. _ 

Anything short of that, and he is :bsflag:-ing you again. Once it gets to that point, he may have NO IDEA what to do, but from a point like that, you can fix things. Before he gets to that point--_taking it on himself and admitting what he's done -AND- voluntarily wanting to not be like that_--you two will not be able to rebuild anything.


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## surfergirl

tobio said:


> ... The crazy thing is, I do love him so much. ...


I know you do and it's painful watching you go through this.

But you know, just because we love someone doesn't automatically mean being in a relationship with them is the best thing. There are many, many people out there who are stuck in the wrong relationships - simply because they love the other person.

I don't care what anybody says, sometimes "love" simply isn't enough. Your man may be a great person, but he just may not be the best man for you (or you the best woman for him). Being together for several years and having children together doesn't change that fact. 

I think you are handling all this really well Tobio - you appear to be an intelligent, thoughtful and caring person (not to mention with the patience of a saint! ). 

It sounds like at the moment his confusion is greatly affecting you, well....I think it's getting close to the time where you allow him to have it all to himself. 

He sounds like he doesn't really know what he wants, and that's cool....it happens to all of us sometimes - how we get through it depends on how emotionally mature we are. Your man may not be all that emotionally mature....so maybe the most loving thing you can do for him is to allow him to go and grow - without any conditions attached (aside from child support, which is not attached to emotions anyhow).

I would really like to see you take more of a stand for yourself soon though - think about his feelings less and your (and your children's) wellbeing more. Make your life good - and if he is willing to fit himself within that somewhere down the track when he's gotten himself sorted then that's brilliant, if not...then that's okay too. 

If he can't make a decision one way or the other then you have to do it.


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## Jellybeans

Affaircare said:


> You will be able to tell when there's been an actual change because it will sound like this:
> 
> _Honey, I completely take responsibility for my actions. I chose to call her and I made that choice selfishly because it made me feel good. I knew what I was doing and I did it anyway even though I knew it was wrong. I'm sure that made you feel abandoned, unloved, less-than and scared, and it kills me that I treated the mother of my children like that. Would you consider forgiving me? My plan is to change my cell phone number and maybe even give it to you, to show you my emails and ask the boss to never, ever have to work there again, and I'll even tell him WHY because it's on my head! I understand you may need some time after what I've put you through so I encourage you to do whatever you have to do and ask me anything you need. _
> 
> Anything short of that, and he is :bsflag:-ing you again.


Yep! Spot on advice!



surfergirl said:


> But you know, just because we love someone doesn't automatically mean being in a relationship with them is the best thing.
> 
> I don't care what anybody says, sometimes "love" simply isn't enough. .


Goodness, that is so true.


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## golfergirl

Jellybeans said:


> Yep! Spot on advice!
> 
> 
> 
> Goodness, that is so true.


I have to admit when I heard he left and circumstances LostNLonely's story came to mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

He was round earlier to spend some time with the babies. He was telling me how he hated being away from the kids, did I miss him last night when I went to bed, he didn't really think I *wanted* to break up. He has told his bosses he refuses to return to the job where the girl works if they ask him to. I forgot to say he also said yesterday he would hand over his SIM card and get a new number, so she would never be able to contact him again and if she did on his old number, I could see what he said. I pointed out that he *could* do that but it's not about her contacting him, it's him contacting her and he could use any phone if he does indeed know her number off by heart.

I could feel myself weakening a *teeny* bit when he was here- when he's not I feel ok. I kept reminding myself of how I felt when I found he'd texted her again and that seems to help!

Oh and his best friend told him it was probably a good thing, us breaking up, and for the last few years he's been "downtrodden." I KNOW it shouldn't matter but I swear, his friend was p*ssed off because he lost his drinking buddy quite so much, he couldn't go out as often. And he's now painting it like I made him miserable. I think it get to me so much because it seems like although we have no problems with each other, I am painted to be like a "bad" guy, because he basically entered into a relationship and had to take responsibility for two young kids that aren't his own. People thought he was crazy for doing that. It really gets to me.


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## Syrum

Tobio, for some reasons people think men are saints if they take on other peoples children. And that it's such a burden on them.

Which is ridiculous, because obviously just as many men have children from previous relationships. Moreover he chose to be with you. If he loves you, then he loves you. I feel very sorry for your children in all of this.

I am glad you found the strength to kick him out.


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## tobio

Syrum said:


> I am glad you found the strength to kick him out.


I don't feel strong. I was talking to my sister yesterday and she said I deserved better and she was pleased for me (she likes him but doesn't like how he's treated me.) I said I didn't think I had it in me, she said was I serious, of course I did, I have four children so I must be strong and she knows I am! 

I told her she might have to remind me of it because sometimes I think I might need to hear it.


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## tobio

Oh and the other thing... I mentioned his work mates found out about it last week. That seemingly was his motivation to text her last week ("I hear that you're missing me....")

Well given it's no secret where she works about what happened, it's fairly sure she'll find out about what's happened with me and him through his work mates. So I am guessing at some point, she will be texting him. Either that, or he'll get all depressed one night, think, "oh well Tobio doesn't want me so I might as well text someone who does."

I have actually managed to steer clear of wanting to do bad things to this woman. But now, I actually want to gouge her eyes out. Oh, I KNOW him texting her is giving her an "in", she replied to him, "yes I am, are you?" to which he hasn't replied. But WTF? I mean, FFS. Really.

I wish I had insisted those few weeks ago that he'd done NC properly and made it clear to her there would be no further contact. I suppose I keep wondering if it would have made a difference...


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## Therealbrighteyes

tobio said:


> Oh and the other thing... I mentioned his work mates found out about it last week. That seemingly was his motivation to text her last week ("I hear that you're missing me....")
> 
> Well given it's no secret where she works about what happened, it's fairly sure she'll find out about what's happened with me and him through his work mates. So I am guessing at some point, she will be texting him. Either that, or he'll get all depressed one night, think, "oh well Tobio doesn't want me so I might as well text someone who does."
> 
> I have actually managed to steer clear of wanting to do bad things to this woman. But now, I actually want to gouge her eyes out. Oh, I KNOW him texting her is giving her an "in", she replied to him, "yes I am, are you?" to which he hasn't replied. But WTF? I mean, FFS. Really.
> 
> I wish I had insisted those few weeks ago that he'd done NC properly and made it clear to her there would be no further contact. I suppose I keep wondering if it would have made a difference...


It isn't your job to insist on NC with this hussy, it is his. If his relationship is as important as he claims it is, that would have been his first coarse of action. He lied, he contacted her again and now he is blameshifting on you but worst of all, on your children. He really takes no responsibility at all, does he? He allows his friend to control his actions, says the trollop is all to blame as she came on to him, your kids are at fault because they aren't his, he is so sorry you are sad but you are pushing him away as he continues to lie to you. That guy is like Teflon. Nothing sticks. You are correct that he is going to continue to pursue this piece of garbage because he can rationalize in his mind "Tobio didn't want me" when the reality is you did want him, you just didn't want his girlfriend. So poor, poor Mr. Tobio can now walk away blameless. Breathtaking.
You have 4 kids to think about. Here are 3 things you don't need in your life......

1. A bully. Him telling you to get over it or else he will leave is bullying behavior. He is trying to manipulate you into never bringing it up, your feelings be damned. It makes things much easier on him if you just forget about it at your expense and instead put him up on a pedestal.
2. An ego maniac. It was his inflated ego that got him in the position in the first place. He is still contacting her to continue to feed his ego since now you are not stroking his. He isn't seen in the same light by you so he has to go to someone else who doesn't see him for what he really is. 
3. An a$$hole. He is blaming his cheating among other things on your children. Children he knew about and agreed to raise. Yes, your children are the reason he jammed his tongue down another woman's throat, bought her gifts, continued to call her and continued to text her.

You have to stay strong Tobio, this gutless wonder never was and never will be. 

(((Hugs Tobio)))


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## Affaircare

Tobio~

Don't work yourself up about the OW too badly. Bear in mind that she is a woman of such low moral caliber that she KNEW your husband was married and JUST had a baby, and she still was flirting with him!  Exactly how likely to you think it is that she'll be an honest, upright kind of gal? If she were honest and upright, doing the decent thing, she'd hear of a guy just having a baby with his wife and say "Congratulations I hope you and your wife are very happy together" ... not try to steal him from an INFANT.  

Anyway, there's no point in wasting your energy hoping she will leave him alone or "do the right thing" or she would have respected his marriage in the first place. The main redemption you have now is that you know she is a woman of low moral character, absolutely willing to cheat with the next hottie that comes along, and once she gets to know your hubby won't be her "sugar daddy" she'll move on to the next guy. 

As to your hubby, it may be that he's testing you and feeling you out to see if you'll let him come home, etc. but I would suggest that you make any kind of return contingent on these three things: 
1) No Contact Letter that he writes and your mail
2) Transparency
3) Commitment to counseling. 

Please see this sticky for more: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407. I would encourage you to do everything in your power to save your marriage, and unlike some I don't consider your husband a "bad guy"...just somewhat immature and having a new baby he's probably freaking out about the responsibility of four kids. However, even if he is a good guy underneath, the way to fix all this mess is not to keep avoiding responsibility but rather to face it all head on, deal with it, and then grow together. Going to some tart who is willing to flirt with a married man will not fix things or make life better for him!! 

I'm hoping he'll see this soon.


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## Affaircare

Tobio~

I have a new "Theme Song" for you: Roll with the Changes by REO Speedwagon. 

_As soon as you are able, I am more than willing
To make the break that we are on the brink of
My cup is on the table, my love is spilling
Waiting here for you to take and drink of

So if you're tired of the same old story,
Oh, turn some pages
I will be here when you are ready
To roll with the changes, yeah, yeah

I knew it had to happen, felt the tables turnin'
Got me through my darkest hour
I heard the thunder clappin', felt the desert burnin'
Until you poured on me like a sweet sunshower

So if you're tired of the same old story
Oh, turn some pages
I will be here when you are ready
To roll with the changes, ooooh

So if you're tired of the same old story
Oh baby, turn some pages
I will be here when you are ready
To roll with the changes, baby,
Roll with the changes,
Ah you know you know you know you got to​_
You keep on rolling until he's tired of "the same old story" and he's ready to turn the page to a *whole new chapter*!


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## Catherine602

Tabio and Affaircare I think one other element of his return is to break off friendship with his drinking buddy and change his line of work. Both mitigate against a committed relationship. The workplace, the friend and this woman are all factors against the marriage and he is too weak and insecure to resist the pull of the swaggering lifestyle. Thats why I feel that there will be ongoing problems even if he comes back. He is not a strong man with an independent spirit that could resist these influences for long. He need a marriage supportive environment or there will be heartache in the future. 

That's how I see it. If he not a bad man then he is weak, insecure, prone to blame shifting and unable to maintain a commitment. That's as bad as a bad man. I really don't think he is a good longterm risk unless he suddenly becomes a strong man. 

It is easy for me to say this from afar I am not living this but I put it out for your consideration. You know him far better than anyone else. If you can look at what he really is and not what you hope he will be, you have your fix on his character and his ability to sustain a committment when the next crisis occurs and he meets another adoring woman in the future. if he has shown lack of staying power many times before he is unlikely to get it now unless he recognizes the problem on his own. 

I hate to see you hurt again and again or living in a state of constant anxiety until the next time. No matter what he say he has to show that he recognizes his problems and goes to therapy not because you want him to go but because he wants to go. If he can not see his problems it will happen again. At that time you will regret allowing him to sap your self esteem and trample your love. 

He may in time regret his choice but that will probably be years from now, when he has had failed relationships and has not been able to find someone who loves him the way you do. Then he will regret what he put aside. By that time his drinking buddy will have found some to love and his work mates will have moved on to destroy the committed relationship of fresh victims.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

It won't be years from now Catherine. It will be in a few months tops when this [email protected] recognizes him for who he is. He will then come sniffing around Tobio, you know, to validate his wounded feelings. Him, him, him. 
As for somebody who loves him? Him. It's all about him. 
I would bet my next paycheck that this urchin tries to get back in to the good graces of Tobio. Why? Not because he wants to be responsible or own his sh!t but because he realized that life was better with her. She fed him, she looked out for him, she cared for him, she tended to his needs. Again, him, him, him. Naturally he will try to convince her it is because of love. Yeah, love for himself. He ACTUALLY blamed his failings as a human being and partner on her having children prior to him. Like he committed to her, had 2 children with her and these other 2 kids just broke free from the basement and yelled Daddy! What a complete jerk. 
Tobio, get rid of the vapid bum and his toxic waste from your life. You can either spend the rest of your life focusing on this parasite or you can move on with your children, your amazing insight and your children knowing that they are welcome, wanted and not a "reason" to excuse awful behavior.


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## tobio

Thank you all for your replies. I have read through them a couple of times to take them all in.

FWIW... He's never shown any propensity for this sort of behaviour before. Ever. Thus my previous 100% trust. 

I have previously thought he is "suggestible." He was always adamantly NOT. Nothing to do with this, just little things like being persuaded to drink more at the end of his night. This is what worries me about work. Oh, I don't think he is so soft that if a workmate or friend said, oh, go and text this woman, he would do, but I think it puts the idea in his head, he wrestles with it then after a few beers... doesn't seem like a "bad" idea.

I KNOW this is a cliche but I do not believe he is a malicious or uncaring person. I do not think he set out to be the sort of person who treads on my feelings and not care. I don't think this makes it any better however. I keep telling him that until he can own what he did and show insight into why he did all these things, we will never move forward. Because he'll never be able to work on not doing it again. When I asked him what would happen if he got into that situation again,and how would I know he wouldn't do the same, I got the "I wouldn't, because I'm not like that" answer. It gives me no comfort whatsoever to hear him keep rolling this one out.

I have to go because the baby is crying but I will try and post some more later.


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## Trenton

tobio said:


> Thank you all for your replies. I have read through them a couple of times to take them all in.
> 
> FWIW... He's never shown any propensity for this sort of behaviour before. Ever. Thus my previous 100% trust.
> 
> I have previously thought he is "suggestible." He was always adamantly NOT. Nothing to do with this, just little things like being persuaded to drink more at the end of his night. This is what worries me about work. Oh, I don't think he is so soft that if a workmate or friend said, oh, go and text this woman, he would do, but I think it puts the idea in his head, he wrestles with it then after a few beers... doesn't seem like a "bad" idea.
> 
> I KNOW this is a cliche but I do not believe he is a malicious or uncaring person. I do not think he set out to be the sort of person who treads on my feelings and not care. I don't think this makes it any better however. I keep telling him that until he can own what he did and show insight into why he did all these things, we will never move forward. Because he'll never be able to work on not doing it again. When I asked him what would happen if he got into that situation again,and how would I know he wouldn't do the same, I got the "I wouldn't, because I'm not like that" answer. It gives me no comfort whatsoever to hear him keep rolling this one out.
> 
> I have to go because the baby is crying but I will try and post some more later.


Tobio, I'm going to ask you an honest question. Do you think you are writing what you're writing and hoping he's reading it because you're lonely, scared and sad?

Not that I don't think you really feel what you're writing is true but that you're very vulnerable right now and I know you know he has access to your thoughts here.

I think it is possible this at first unwanted attention from this woman has turned into a cloud of what if's and possibilities. You are tired, exhausted and dealing with all of the demands of your children.

This makes him vulnerable too as you are less likely to be able to show him the attention he's used to and he most likely feels neglected and confused. So the attentions of this woman comes at a really bad time. It doesn't mean he's a bad man or unworthy as a man but more that he is unworthy of having you in his life while he's behaving like a selfish jacka$$. 

I really am over here hoping he wakes up, stands up and recognizes he has the possibility of a lifelong love with you and the family you both love. It is not at the point of no return but he is the one who has the work to do here and with each day he loses the possibility a little bit more.

He is in a position where he either stands up for you or chooses to walk away. All the power is not with him though. It is a partnership and you do deserve to be treated better and should not bow to him because you are scared and confused. Standing strong now is for the sake of any future relationship you have with him. Do not let him manipulate you into believing you deserve whatever he is willing to give.

Whether or not he could be the one to treat you as you deserve, well, that's the actual question. I think he can be but will he be? What do you want? What do you deserve?


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## golfergirl

Trenton said:


> Tobio, I'm going to ask you an honest question. Do you think you are writing what you're writing and hoping he's reading it because you're lonely, scared and sad?
> 
> Not that I don't think you really feel what you're writing is true but that you're very vulnerable right now and I know you know he has access to your thoughts here.
> 
> I think it is possible this at first unwanted attention from this woman has turned into a cloud of what if's and possibilities. You are tired, exhausted and dealing with all of the demands of your children.
> 
> This makes him vulnerable too as you are less likely to be able to show him the attention he's used to and he most likely feels neglected and confused. So the attentions of this woman comes at a really bad time. It doesn't mean he's a bad man or unworthy as a man but more that he is unworthy of having you in his life while he's behaving like a selfish jacka$$.
> 
> I really am over here hoping he wakes up, stands up and recognizes he has the possibility of a lifelong love with you and the family you both love. It is not at the point of no return but he is the one who has the work to do here and with each day he loses the possibility a little bit more.
> 
> He is in a position where he either stands up for you or chooses to walk away. All the power is not with him though. It is a partnership and you do deserve to be treated better and should not bow to him because you are scared and confused. Standing strong now is for the sake of any future relationship you have with him. Do not let him manipulate you into believing you deserve whatever he is willing to give.
> 
> Whether or not he could be the one to treat you as you deserve, well, that's the actual question. I think he can be but will he be? What do you want? What do you deserve?


Does he have a drinking problem? Some of your issues are due to boozing.
1). Stress over him letting you get sleep in day due to drinking too much night before
2). Him texting the tramp when not in control of himmself due to boozing.
Not holding that as an excuse but it could be part of the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

He says he thinks he might drink too much. He seems to be going through a dark time in his life- thus my previous comments about an "early" midlife crisis- and said a while ago that he was worried he might be. He said the other day that after baby was born, we had a bit of a rough patch, and he felt that was in part due to drinking too much.

He isn't a raging drinker. He is the type to have a couple of beers when relaxing after the kids are in bed. Add to that a couple (or more) weekend nights and going to bed late and he knows it isn't a good mix for him, but for whatever reason he continues to do it.

Trenton, I hadn't had that thought about writing for him to read here. He is currently going through some kind of anguish, trying to reconcile his worries with the practicalities of continuing our relationship.

I said something to him about him loving the attention, his need to have his ego fed. He said you know where that comes from don't you? I said did he mean I didn't give him enough attention- he said no, the opposite, I gave him loads and he wanted more... He has self-esteem issues, he has said this himself.

Funny thing is, I NEVER neglected him. I never stopped showing I cared or gave him less attention. I always made a point of ensuring this was prioritised.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> He says he thinks he might drink too much. He seems to be going through a dark time in his life- thus my previous comments about an "early" midlife crisis- and said a while ago that he was worried he might be. He said the other day that after baby was born, we had a bit of a rough patch, and he felt that was in part due to drinking too much.
> 
> He isn't a raging drinker. He is the type to have a couple of beers when relaxing after the kids are in bed. Add to that a couple (or more) weekend nights and going to bed late and he knows it isn't a good mix for him, but for whatever reason he continues to do it.
> 
> Trenton, I hadn't had that thought about writing for him to read here. He is currently going through some kind of anguish, trying to reconcile his worries with the practicalities of continuing our relationship.
> 
> I said something to him about him loving the attention, his need to have his ego fed. He said you know where that comes from don't you? I said did he mean I didn't give him enough attention- he said no, the opposite, I gave him loads and he wanted more... He has self-esteem issues, he has said this himself.
> 
> Funny thing is, I NEVER neglected him. I never stopped showing I cared or gave him less attention. I always made a point of ensuring this was prioritised.


Tabio I think he nailed it. You may give him too much attention and leeway with out making sure that he reciprocates. Does that ring true?

With that set up, he expects you to always be there and never ask him do anything for you. It is more like mothering, sometimes you sound more like you are talking about you child and not your husband. You seem to be too understanding with little reciprocal understanding from him. He has gotten so used to this that he takes it for granted that you will always be there like his mommy no matter what he does.

Tabio, what if you stopped pandering to him, listening to his worries, asking him how he feels? What if you waited for him to nurturer you, how would you feel? Do you think he would step up? 

I think you give far too much to him. He has an infant daughter and you put up with him hanging out at the pub every W/E! What a selfish dolt and you, I don't know what to say. You ask far too little. 

The squeaky wheal gets the oil, you need to stop giving more than you get. What you give is so valuable but you give it away cheap. It is only after it is gone will the people around you realize what a rare person you are. 

This man will never meet anyone like you ever again in his life. I almost feel sorry for him, he had the misfortune to have his first long-term relationship with the cream of the female crop. Having no basis for comparison he kisses a frog who pursues a married man with an infant. The quality differential is laughable. 

You seem to have a capacity for love and understanding that is really rare. You are unselfish, giving, nurturing, reassuring, accepting, resilient, self reliant. In short, you are a dream woman. A man would kill to have a woman like you, you would make his life very happy. 

It is too bad that you are casting your pearl among the selfish.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Okay - let me say it - MEN SUCK!

Okay, not all men - but yours does.

Every time I think I've got it bad, I can find someone who has it worse. 

This is the worst, stupidest, most BS excuse for walking out on your family I've ever heard.

I find it insulting that your husband thinks your "that stupid" to just believe any type of crap he throws at you.

Maybe he didn't set out to be the sort of person that stomps all over you, but he's doing it now, so it doesn't matter how he got there or what excuses he makes for it - he has just shown that "he is a malicious and uncaring person." If not, then he wouldn't do this.

He is only thinking of himself and the hell with everyone and everything else. This is an uncaring person - one who doesn't care about others.

Geez, with all my husband's faults, walking out on me and the children were never one of them. This is low and I really feel for you.


----------



## tobio

Ok, and with that MWIL, I will now tell you that I told him earlier that I would be prepared to have him back *ducks and runs for cover*

It wasn't a kneejerk reaction. I actually told him that in a way, I was punishing him for how he had made me feel. I wanted to know if all the soul-searching confessional he did the last two evenings was true. He has really spilled his guts and I took it all in and have been contemplating it since.

He was mad at me. Said he'd been mentally preparing himself for being a single parent and now I turn things right around. He said I was playing mind games, and ok, yes I was.

He was asking how would we work through the problems. I said I felt counselling (our sessions will be starting in a couple of weeks) would be the place to work through his feelings about the family situation. I wasn't sure that I could "do" anything with that issue as it belongs to him.

And the trust issues... Well yes they are mine, understandably. I reiterated to him that we would need to work through, and he would have to be prepared to do that. I said I can't mend over this right away and he has to understand this. We had a discussion about what "forgiveness" means- it DOES mean moving forward, and leaving behind what happened. It DOESN'T mean being able to bring it up in a retaliatory fashion, or glossing over it without consequences, but reasonable consequences (ie transparency but not snooping.)

One thing did come up that has worried me... He told me that today she has tried to call him. He said he rejected the call, which I shall ask him to show me to confirm. He said he didn't know what to do if this cropped up from now, and went back to what I said previously about me saying he should be telling me about it right away. I guess this would be where the No Contact letter from him should come, right?

He has got a real bee in his bonnet about WHY she's tried to call him. My take based on what I know is that she's heard from his work mates that he's single and he's done enough to make her think she has a chance.

So I guess that now, I am waiting for him to show me that he CAN be that person he keeps claiming he is, the one who is trustworthy.


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## Jellybeans

K I'm new to your thread and haven't read it all but this is BS:



tobio said:


> I said something to him about him loving the attention, his need to have his ego fed. He said you know where that comes from don't you? I said did he mean I didn't give him enough attention- he said no, the opposite, I gave him loads and he wanted more... He has self-esteem issues, he has said this himself.


Laughable. He's deflecting the blame onto you saying it's "your fault" he needs to get his ego stroked elsewhere? Cause you gave him too much attention? What a joke. Sure, you may have had a relationship dynamic where you gave him lots and he didn't reciprocate equally but him pushing his reasons for wanting out and cheating are STUPID. He needs to own his own issues. And he probably does have self-esteem issues, but you aren't the root of them. That is his own thing to deal with. That is why it's call SELF-esteem.



Catherine602 said:


> This man will never meet anyone like you ever again in his life. I almost feel sorry for him, he had the misfortune to have his first long-term relationship with the cream of the female crop.


Haha! I love it! :rofl:

Btw, I am going to start using the phrase "he/she has a bee is his bonnet"--so cute 

My thinking is: when someone wants out, let them go. No sense in holding onto someone who is trying to scurry away and can't give you 100% of themselves.


----------



## tobio

Jellybeans said:


> K I'm new to your thread and haven't read it all but this is BS:
> 
> 
> 
> Laughable. He's deflecting the blame onto you saying it's "your fault" he needs to get his ego stroked elsewhere? Cause you gave him too much attention? What a joke. Sure, you may have had a relationship dynamic where you gave him lots and he didn't reciprocate equally but him pushing his reasons for wanting out and cheating are STUPID. He needs to own his own issues. And he probably does have self-esteem issues, but you aren't the root of them. That is his own thing to deal with. That is why it's call SELF-esteem.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha! I love it! :rofl:
> 
> Btw, I am going to start using the phrase "he/she has a bee is his bonnet"--so cute
> 
> My thinking is: when someone wants out, let them go. No sense in holding onto someone who is trying to scurry away and can't give you 100% of themselves.


I think he *wants* to be in this relationship but doesn't know how to deal with his feelings over the family situation. Thinking about the different issues at the mo is messing with my head. How everything is or isn't connected.


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## Affaircare

tobio said:


> Ok, and with that MWIL, I will now tell you that I told him earlier that I would be prepared to have him back *ducks and runs for cover*


Tobio~ I think that's fine and okay in that you also made a vow to him to give 100% of your affection and loyalty only to him as long as you're alive. For your own sake (being the kind of woman who honors her promises) and for your kids, I think it is reasonable to let him know that under the right circumstances you would consider it. 

HOWEVER, I would just caution that up to know your OH has shown some character and then faulted in admitting it was an affair and taking personal responsibility for his own choices. I would strongly suggest that before you do take him back, you see ACTIONS that indicate true remorse...actions that he does on his own accord, voluntarily, in order to repair his marriage and make things right. As long as all you hear are words (no actions to "back them up")...well sadly we know that he does not keep his promises or he would not be involved in all this. So words = nope not yet but actions = yep time to consider it.



> It wasn't a kneejerk reaction. I actually told him that in a way, I was punishing him for how he had made me feel. I wanted to know if all the soul-searching confessional he did the last two evenings was true. He has really spilled his guts and I took it all in and have been contemplating it since.


Just a note though...all that was only words, and the words of a person who has purposely deceived you. So do not base your life and your decisions on that hot air. It becomes more concrete that hot air when he actually ACTS on his own to correct things. When you really mean something, do you sit around for days or weeks and "think about it" or do nothing...or do you get up immediately and DO what you really mean? 



> He was mad at me. Said he'd been mentally preparing himself for being a single parent and now I turn things right around. He said I was playing mind games, and ok, yes I was.


Yeah...this is blame-shifting, which means that rather than accepting responsibility for being where he is because of his own choices...he's "blaming" you. I can honestly say that I wouldn't tolerate this much at all. He was preparing to be a single parent because he knew he was committing adultery and continued...not because "you were playing mind games" with him. If he continues being unfaithful, it's not mind games--you mean it! 



> He was asking how would we work through the problems. I said I felt counselling (our sessions will be starting in a couple of weeks) would be the place to work through his feelings about the family situation. I wasn't sure that I could "do" anything with that issue as it belongs to him.[/quote[
> Okay this was really good. Give him a picture of how it could work and options you may choose to get through it together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the trust issues... Well yes they are mine, understandably. I reiterated to him that we would need to work through, and he would have to be prepared to do that. I said I can't mend over this right away and he has to understand this. We had a discussion about what "forgiveness" means- it DOES mean moving forward, and leaving behind what happened. It DOESN'T mean being able to bring it up in a retaliatory fashion, or glossing over it without consequences, but reasonable consequences (ie transparency but not snooping.)
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah and tiptoe light here, because it is not that you have a trust issue, Tobio. See if I actually ACT in an untrustworthy manner, it is REASONABLE for you to not trust my honesty! If I behave honestly then dishonestly then honestly then dishonestly....it is still reasonable for you not to depend on my honesty AND that is me behaving in dishonest ways not you having trust issues. See trust in honesty is built over TIME and he is expecting it instantaneously "because he says he's honest" when with the same mouth he tells you he has not contacted her but then turns around and contacts her. Anyways, I'm sure you get the drift. If he wants you to trust his honesty, the way to do that is to ACT in an honest way and show you that he actually IS BEING HONEST...not behave deceitfully and then say you have a trust issue if you don't just "believe him".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One thing did come up that has worried me... He told me that today she has tried to call him. He said he rejected the call, which I shall ask him to show me to confirm. He said he didn't know what to do if this cropped up from now, and went back to what I said previously about me saying he should be telling me about it right away. I guess this would be where the No Contact letter from him should come, right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep--a No Contact letter would be perfect. Here's why you need a No Contact letter: The Purpose Of No Contact and here are some sample No Contact letters:
> Sample No Contact Letters. That letter should NOT be a final love letter with a bunch of stuff about destiny not allowing them to be together...but rather a blunt statement that behaving like this is WRONG and he refuses to participate in it anymore. HE writes it, gives it to you, and you mail it...none of this: "I said goodbye and ended it, you just have to believe me" :bsflag: Either you mail it or don't believe him--and yeah, I am DEAD SERIOUS about this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has got a real bee in his bonnet about WHY she's tried to call him. My take based on what I know is that she's heard from his work mates that he's single and he's done enough to make her think she has a chance.
> 
> So I guess that now, I am waiting for him to show me that he CAN be that person he keeps claiming he is, the one who is trustworthy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good job. Keep waiting until you see ACTIONS and not just promises. He has already proven that he does not keep his promises, but if he really has changed, you will see different ACTIONS.
> 
> On your other thread, you wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have been hearing all sorts of things that she has been saying, stuff like, "it's his girlfriend I feel sorry for"- oh of course she does- so sorry she thought she'd phone him right up as soon as she heard. She's never tried to call him before.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah--do not trust her as far as you can throw her. She sees him as someone she can steal who will then "take care of her" ... not as a committed man with children and a wife. If she felt sorry for you, she would call YOU! She's just sniffing around to see if she has an "in" with him now that he's no longer tied down by you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We're tentatively getting things back together and I am very tempted to contact her directly myself to tell her to p*ss off and leave us alone. I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest by creating more drama for her to feed off though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NO!!! This would be a very bad move, not just because it would be ineffective but also legally. At this point, if you ask her to stop contacting your OH and she persists, she is on the verge of stalking...but if you contact her, go tell her to p*ss off, etc. then she could charge you and arrange it so somehow you can't come near your OH. Trust me, OW are very tricky and you do not want to sink to that level. Your OH started this and HE will have to be the one to finish it and deal with it...sternly. And here's the fact: he's going to have to hurt her to get it through her head that there is NO FREAKING CHANCE with him. Not be nice...not "let her down gently." Okay? Do not do this!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OH has suggested changing his number and handing me his old SIM card, but he told me he has her number memorised. I don't know.
> 
> Would it be better for OH to do the NC letter? I'm flailing here because with our recent troubles, I am worried she is now actively pursuing OH and want to intercept her efforts to cut them dead. But what's the best way to go?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go with this: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 Require all three to be done first and see actions first...then take him back. HE has to write the No Contact Letter and give it to you, and you mail it. HE has to willingly offer transparency and it sounds like he is making some suggestions that way. I suggest you consider his offers and change the number and SIM. HE has to be willing to commit to doing the work in counseling both on his own issues and on the marriage issues. Once you see him acting like that, then he means it. Before that... he is B.S.-ing you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am also thinking of deleting his FB page, which again was his suggestion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is a good idea. See? He has some suggestions and I say let him go with it and prove to you he's transparent.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But what about HER- I didn't want to be bothered with her but she is starting to actively pursue him now. Would it be better coming from him? Is it a bad idea for me to call her or even go and find her at work- I have thought about this but a)thought it was too much, and b) thought she'd feed off the drama and want to take it further because of the challenge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is MUCH better coming from him because you have no relationship with her...at all! Furthermore, if he sends her a No Contact Letter and you have a copy of the letter and send it certified return receipt, you have proof that she got it. THEN if she continues, get a restraining order. Nothing personal but it's easy. Just get a calendar and document all the times she attempts to contact him, before and after the receipt of the letter. Show the judge the letter, the receipt, and that she is continuing to stalk him and getting a court-order to stay away will very likely end it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any suggestions- I'm really panicking because I dread OH coming home from work in a bit and telling me she's tried to call him again, I need to have a plan, and be VERY CLEAR about what transparency means- he previously deleted the texts she sent and I made it clear this wasn't acceptable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep--I suggest that since he has already demonstrated that he will look at your face and lie about deleting texts, that you request that he allow a keylogger on his new number or allow "print out my text messages" so you can go online and SEE his texts. If he's not hiding anything, he should have no problem with this. Heck, Tobio, I don't even KNOW you and I'd let you see my texts because I'm not hiding anything! So don't take his blame that you have trust issues...he looked in your eyes, said he'd never contact her, texted her, and then deleted them so his ACTIONS spoke louder than his words. If he tries "I'm not like that" I'd suggest saying, "You know baby you're right it's not like you--you're an honest man--but during this affair you looked in my eye and deleted texts to hide them so you may not be like that but right now you are acting like that. I want to believe you, so you need to prove to me you're not like that. So show me."
Click to expand...


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## tobio

A keylogger- what specifically does this do? And I didn't know phone providers allowed you to print out text messages?


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## Affaircare

As an example, maybe you could use a service such as Treasuremytext.com to forward all texts to that website. Then you have access to see what texts were sent back and forth on his phone. Something like that just "stores" messages but it could be made automatic, or you can also Google apps that send texts to email. 

Regarding a keylogger on the phone, I'm not positive but if there is an app that would log keystrokes, you'd see if a text was deleted. So it couldn't be hidden. Again not sure if such as app exists but it's worth looking...


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## Catherine602

How about his drinking buddy and hanging out in the pub every W/e. If he does not voluntarily give that up it will be more of the same. He likes listening to the friend, keeps the idea alive that he will find a way out of his responsibilities. The W/e pub thing is an area of his life that does not involve you and again keeps up the notion of what it would be like to get out. I think anything that does not support his role as a responsible married man, endangers your relationship. 

I would not ask him to give these up just see if he intends to continue. If he does he is not fully committed to you. If you ask him to do it he will resent you for taking away his temporary escapes. He needs time away but not in activity that are hostile to his commitment to you. That shows he is not fully committed and he sides withhis friend. This friend is hotile tothe woman he loves, would you keep a friend who was hostile to your relationship with him? 

I have a strong feeling that if you let him back, he may try but he will eventually leave for good. I just don't think he is long-term relationship material. I think he made an error in his choice and unfortunately his family pays the price. His only difficulty is the financial burden. I notice that no one asked why he wanted to keep the kids over night. He knows it means less financial burden and not a desire to see his kids. He showed no interest in getting up to take care of them. Ask him why he wanted to do that and then ask him if he found out about child support. I bet you get a lie. 

I don't agree with your choice and I hope for a miracle. I wonder if anyone has seen a man like this suddenly turn around. I bet they didn't. Is his contribution to your happiness or the way he makes you feel about yourself worth having him around. You want him because the feelings you have for him but what would your decision be if you based your decision on how he feels foe you. I think you would not be inclined to take him back. 

The very best of luck and I sincerely hope I am wrong. I pray for the best for you, I wish a man comes in to your life who recognizes your value and you drop this flawed man. I hope this man attaches to you and never let's you go. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

Well **** it. Just **** it. I FELT last night his heart wasn't in it, I felt like he was distant, even though we are supposed to be tentatively working through things. He has just taken the babies out, I went to the car with him, and he said we needed to have a talk and that he'd probably stay at the house he was going to stay at the other night (where he'd been thinking about living if we broke up.)

Why, asked I- has the OW been in touch? No he said. He says things just don't feel the same, we were close last night and it "just didn't feel like before." No it didn't, I feel quite vulnerable and open and I guess it shows at the mo. 

But him saying that confirms what I had been kinda thinking- the words are there but the ACTIONS aren't. He wants me to forget all about it, forgo any consequences, and his issues to magically disappear without him actually having to do anything about it. He, as has been said, can't face up to what he has done, won't face the effects and the consequences. I think he has seen a life that offers something else, an escape from what is here, and once he saw that, coming back here seemed second best.

All I can think about now is I am certain he will hook up with this woman. I think something will happen, however big, small or short-term, it won't last. He doth protest TOO much if you know what I mean... He will argue til the cows come home that he isn't interested in her, but I think he will turn to her, something will happen, and he will realise that actually, the grass ISN'T greener. I am trying to mentally prepare myself, but how DO you do that? Do I just get on with it and leave him to his confusion? He will have to realise that he will need to deal with the choices he has made in his life instead of avoiding, blameshifting and ultimately, running away. 

I feel emotionally drained. I feel I could repeat ad infintum at this point, "you need to accept that there are consequences to your actions," "we can work through our problems," but I can feel him turning away. He is, for whatever reason, not prepared to work at things- he sees the fact that there ARE problems as meaning the relationship is ultimately flawed. The sad thing is, he will go on, have other relationships, and only then will he realise that the same problems are there, only he has to deal with them with two children and a different partner, and maybe more children.

I step back and look at the things people have said on this thread, and I realise exactly what he has done to me, and to himself. It's easy to think, oh I want him back, but when I step back and think about just how he treated me, I ask myself WHY exactly? I'm not one for running away but I have to ask myself why I want him back when he's showing all the signs of checking out.

You know, although I feel really sad, I actually think that yes, I am a good person, I have a lot to offer, and I feel bad for him that he doesn't want that, and doesn't REALISE just what he is throwing away. I keep thinking that there must be someone out there who will treat me how I deserve to be treated and this is the opportunity to find them.


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## Catherine602

Tears came to my eyes when I read your last post. I am so very sorry. 

It is difficult to read this, more so because of the rare combinations of the qualities of intelligence, emotional stability, nurturing, kindness, readiness to forgive that shines through so clearly from your post.

My very strong advice is to drop him once and for all - you make the decision before he does. Do you know why? It will the first step in a process of drawing into yourself the nurturing and dignity that you have. It will be a declaration of your worth and the refusal to be second in any mans life. Difficult but what is the alternative? 

Do you want to wait until he tells you that he is involved with this girl and does not intend to come back to you? It would be like waiting for the dog to disown his master. The dog has all to lose but does not know it. Reject him as not the type of man you want in your life. Don't cry in front of him, act as if he is the lest important person in the would. 

Not to be mean but, to send a message to YOU and him. Your value is far superior to his and he is the one who lost.

This is your mantra - YOU FIRST - from here on in. No more nurturing men, helping them to heal. You need that for you and more. In addition, when you stop worrying about him, you begin to focus on what you need to do to protect the future of your children. 

You need strong, competent legal council now. You need to prepare your self for the financial negotiations that will come and no doubt the resistance and manipulation by him in terms of custody. 

He will try to get as much custody as possible to avoid child support. but after he gets the kids overnight in a final decree he will not want them to interfere with his single life style. 

Educate yourself on the laws and don't ascribe noble motives to anything he says or does. He checked out when he took that girls number "just in case" and he plans to have a free and clear life style. He may be surprised that you preempt him and that you are adamant on making him responsible. 

Believe me his drinking buddy and workmates will be giving him all kinds of advice why he should not pay and how to s***w you out of any part of his money. Get ready. Remember this is a man who cannot sustain long-term commitments. This is the longest he will have and he will fight it over the next 18 yrs in one way or another. Please secure your future. 

Tabio, you seem to pick men who need nurturing and help. You seem to give but not expect indeed demand reciprocation. You seem to care more for tis man than you do for you. 

The future starts when you let this man go, and start a new attitude ME FIRST. Then you will meet a strong man with a strong sense of himself as a man. 

This kind of man will not blink at the responsibility of four kids because he will see that woman who comes with that package. Besides, a man with a well developed sense of masculinity regards responsibility as part of their identity, or so I have read. This is the type of man you want to attract now. 

I am not a councilor so I may be wrong. Let me just say this - I am observant of people and I have an uncanny ability to see past the surface. I am a professional and supervise many diverse people and I am good at it. These are my credentials for your consideration. 

I like you so much and I don't know you. I wish I did. 
(((((( HUGS))))))


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## tobio

Well he came back. We talked. We argued. Well, I got angry with him. I say "angry" but it was a kind of "we're done here" anger.

He actually started off by saying he was going to move out for a week or so and "see how it went." I said no way- that is not happening. At least have the balls to move out and mean it, stop being half-assed and pretending you want to see what happens, see how you feel. I told him I could feel he checked out four weeks ago, he thinks the grass is greener and coming back is his second best now. So he can just go.

He seemed to want some peace of mind for leaving. He kept saying he didn't want to abandon me. I said well tough luck- if you're looking for me to say it's ok, well, I'm not doing that. You are a coward. That is what you are. You are walking away and abandoning your family and you can dress it up in kind, caring words as much as you want but it's still the same result at the end of the day and I'm not going to ease your conscience for you.

He said I seemed angry (!) I said yes, I am. Because you are no longer the person I thought I knew. You are someone else. You lie and hide things and twist the truth round and refuse to take responsibility for your actions.

You know what he said? He said I just can't understand what it is like and I only care about my own feelings. Funny- out of all the thing he's said, that latter part made me incredibly sad. I said if that is what you have thought for the last few years and particularly the last four weeks then something really has been horribly wrong.

He said what he said on Monday when it was time for him to leave- what will I do if the toddler wakes up? And the baby wakes up at the same time? How will I manage? He seems to forget that I have done this already, with my older two, with a similar age difference when I split with their dad. I managed fine then, I will manage just fine now. I think that was his odd attempt for getting me to say I wanted him- NEEDED him - he has a compulsion to know this. He then went.

I got a text from him not long ago. It said, "You say you don't think that I'm the man you thought I was... I don't know who I am anymore, my life is so messed up." I haven't replied.


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## turnera

Don't.

He will NEVER be the man you need if you continue to fix things for him.

In the meantime, think about a 'list' of requirements, what it would take for you to ever take him back. You do this list for him, but mainly for YOU. You need to understand 100% what you need from a husband. You'll see it, written down, and take solace from the fact that you didn't compromise just to have a man in the house.

Plus, it may be possible to teach him a little bit about being a real grownup, if he has this list in writing, a visible reminder of how he has destroyed a family.


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## Conrad

Tobio,

I'm sorry it went this way.

However, what you're now facing is superior to a life of key-logging and snooping.

Don't respond.

Don't comfort him.

He doesn't deserve it.



tobio said:


> Well he came back. We talked. We argued. Well, I got angry with him. I say "angry" but it was a kind of "we're done here" anger.
> 
> He actually started off by saying he was going to move out for a week or so and "see how it went." I said no way- that is not happening. At least have the balls to move out and mean it, stop being half-assed and pretending you want to see what happens, see how you feel. I told him I could feel he checked out four weeks ago, he thinks the grass is greener and coming back is his second best now. So he can just go.
> 
> He seemed to want some peace of mind for leaving. He kept saying he didn't want to abandon me. I said well tough luck- if you're looking for me to say it's ok, well, I'm not doing that. You are a coward. That is what you are. You are walking away and abandoning your family and you can dress it up in kind, caring words as much as you want but it's still the same result at the end of the day and I'm not going to ease your conscience for you.
> 
> He said I seemed angry (!) I said yes, I am. Because you are no longer the person I thought I knew. You are someone else. You lie and hide things and twist the truth round and refuse to take responsibility for your actions.
> 
> You know what he said? He said I just can't understand what it is like and I only care about my own feelings. Funny- out of all the thing he's said, that latter part made me incredibly sad. I said if that is what you have thought for the last few years and particularly the last four weeks then something really has been horribly wrong.
> 
> He said what he said on Monday when it was time for him to leave- what will I do if the toddler wakes up? And the baby wakes up at the same time? How will I manage? He seems to forget that I have done this already, with my older two, with a similar age difference when I split with their dad. I managed fine then, I will manage just fine now. I think that was his odd attempt for getting me to say I wanted him- NEEDED him - he has a compulsion to know this. He then went.
> 
> I got a text from him not long ago. It said, "You say you don't think that I'm the man you thought I was... I don't know who I am anymore, my life is so messed up." I haven't replied.


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## JLynnMann

Dear ((Tobio))... I am so very sorry you are going through all of this and I can feel the pain through your words yet I also sense a strength and a resolve that maybe you don't even know you possess. 
You deserve so much better than this. This 'man' is losing everything for a fling and this fling is nothing more than a P.O.S. . He is the loser here, not you.
You are working at regaining strength and showing yourself to be a lady which seems to be a very foreign word/concept to this selfish woman he has made a priority. 

I have had to restart with 3 children, alone before and know how scary this can be. I lost my husband and all security, emotional and financial, all at once. I was a stay at home mother and hadn't worked in 6 years. It is scary this I know..
BUT I did it! I made it and we prospered. The self confidence and independence I achieved during that trying time made every bit of it worth it. I became a person again. A person with feelings that needed and should be considered. I had battled with depression for years and suddenly after losing that extra 200 lbs of 'man' my depression vanished (after a time) and I was a confident, beautiful woman/lady inside as well as out. 
Do not let fear dictate what you do or how you respond. Hold resolute and do not bend because I, for one, know you deserve respect and consideration from yourself as well as from your husband/partner. Be strong. You have it in you and YOU DESERVE IT! You are worthy of much, much better and need to realize this!

Take care of you and your children first. He put his wants above you and his family- It is time you put yours and your childrens wants and needs above his.


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## Trenton

My sentiments echo those of all the thoughtful people who have offered advice. It's clear, even through text, of the wonderful person you are. Once you start believing in your future and you, I think you will attract that forever love you deserve.

Maybe he is "him" but not as he is now and not as he's treated you. If he goes to this other woman and tells you through action you are second best only to come back a few months later...is that really the love and dedication you deserve in a man? I hope you think about this because I know how easy it would be to fall back, but remember, that's not moving ahead.


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## Catherine602

Please don't write a list of requirements for his return, don't do that to yourself. He is already gone. If you read about cheaters, he is speaking the language of a cheater, they blame the person they betray and they hide the fact that they have made the choice of the other person by feigning confusion about who they are. Please prepare - get out of reconciliation mode and get into survival mode. He is probably already seeing this other woman and you and the children will probably see little of him in the coming weeks. I can not stress enough that you need to get legal council now and begin the work on child support and support for you. Don't get caught unaware. 

When his buddies and this girl get a hold of him he will begin to drift away from you and side with their assessment of his responsibilities. This girl has a vested interest in his financial solvency and she may feed him the garbage about your faults and his misfortune to have to support you. So plan early, freeze him out. 

Let me make a guess as to two possible outcomes since the choice you make now will greatly effect your future - 
He'll string you along with enough uncertainty to keep you engaged to reassure himself that you still love him. 
He'll express anger and resentment on occasion when he is sure you would take him back if he wanted.
This makes him feel good, no matter what he does he is irresistable to you and it is the ego bost he needs to enter his new singlehood and life with confidence 
When your interest seems to wain, he again reassures you giving just enough hope to keep your attention
He gets some of his emotional needs for reassurence and confidence he needs from you and that stabilizes his relationship with other women makes it possible to stay with them until he ready to move on. 
The cycle repeats and yrs go by...... you remain his sometimes emotional support making it possible for him to persue woman with the confidence that he always has you to fall back on. He can conceal his needy side from these women and seem strong and manly. They remain attracted to what they think he is. 



There is another possible scenerio, you cut him out of you life so that he needs to find someone who will do what you did for him. 
Because he is on his own with this woman, she gets to see his selfishness, crankiness and immaturity and decides he is not what she thought and gets another man and moves on. 
He tries to get support from you but you are no longer his fall back third stringer, so he is on his own again, meets another woman who sees the same flaws and leaves him and the cycle repeats. 
Eventually someone will stick with him but he will be as always ready to escape when the glow wears off 

You will be out of his miserable life and and will thank your self daily for the fortune. 
You will be safely ensconced with a new well adjusted man and you can thank coward for making it possible. Through him you finally realize your value, declared it by rejecting his offer to be partime helpmate to prop up his weak male ego and that realization changed your life and approach to relationships.
He will not fare as well, with a string of short-lived relatioships, or a few unhappy long-term ones. He'll wish he was man enough to have a woman like you. 

The End or The Beginning...... it's up to you to decide which potential future you want to live. 
One as a third stringer or one that you deserve as the chosen one. 

I am just guessing but, i think its a good guess based on the circumstances. You loved him dispite his flaws because of your fine qualities. He does not know that. I think he feels if you love him and want to stay with him, that any woman he wants will do the same. His rude awakening will be after two maybe three relationships and he will realize that your love was based on your ability to love not on his ability to be loved by a woman. Too bad for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

Thank you again guys for your helpful and inspirational (and they are) posts. I am finding great support and comfort in everything you are all saying- I cannot tell you how much it helps to have people to bounce my thoughts off and offer advice.

He came round this morning to pick up the little ones for the day. He came in fussing round the toddler and sat down with him whilst we got him ready to go out. He was asking stuff like what time did I go to bed, did the babies wake up, how am I, and gave me a "reassuring" squeeze on the leg. I sort of laughed internally and got up; I don't know if he thought I needed comforting- I certainly didn't feel like that- or if he was projecting, which was my first thought. I just wanted him to get the boys and go out.

I have made some headway with affirming the new status quo. I called my parents and told them about what has happened and why; previously I had held off as a) I didn't really know what was going on and b) I didn't want to tell them what he had done because I knew how they'd feel about him and didn't want to risk that if we got back together.

I have also phoned up to change my financial affairs regarding child-related benefits to claim as a single parent.

I feel very calm and rational at the mo. It will be a bit of a here-and-there week coming up as the oldest two are off on holiday for just over a week with their father, which will mean opportunity to get stuff going such as looking for a job and sorting out financial affairs some more; hopefully I will be able to work through things and be a little more clear-headed and able to concentrate on them by the time they are back.

My main worry is that as I will not be as busy with only two of the kids at home, that I will start mulling over things with having a little more time on my hands. I know that despite things, I will worry what he is or isn't getting up to with THAT girl. I am trying to prepare myself for this as I know that if it does happen, at some point he will feel the need to tell me. I am sure it will hurt a lot; at the moment I am thinking of it as part of the journey I have to take. I feel that if I "expect" it to happen, it will be maybe a little easier when he does bring it to me.


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## golfergirl

tobio said:


> Thank you again guys for your helpful and inspirational (and they are) posts. I am finding great support and comfort in everything you are all saying- I cannot tell you how much it helps to have people to bounce my thoughts off and offer advice.
> 
> He came round this morning to pick up the little ones for the day. He came in fussing round the toddler and sat down with him whilst we got him ready to go out. He was asking stuff like what time did I go to bed, did the babies wake up, how am I, and gave me a "reassuring" squeeze on the leg. I sort of laughed internally and got up; I don't know if he thought I needed comforting- I certainly didn't feel like that- or if he was projecting, which was my first thought. I just wanted him to get the boys and go out.
> 
> I have made some headway with affirming the new status quo. I called my parents and told them about what has happened and why; previously I had held off as a) I didn't really know what was going on and b) I didn't want to tell them what he had done because I knew how they'd feel about him and didn't want to risk that if we got back together.
> 
> I have also phoned up to change my financial affairs regarding child-related benefits to claim as a single parent.
> 
> I feel very calm and rational at the mo. It will be a bit of a here-and-there week coming up as the oldest two are off on holiday for just over a week with their father, which will mean opportunity to get stuff going such as looking for a job and sorting out financial affairs some more; hopefully I will be able to work through things and be a little more clear-headed and able to concentrate on them by the time they are back.
> 
> My main worry is that as I will not be as busy with only two of the kids at home, that I will start mulling over things with having a little more time on my hands. I know that despite things, I will worry what he is or isn't getting up to with THAT girl. I am trying to prepare myself for this as I know that if it does happen, at some point he will feel the need to tell me. I am sure it will hurt a lot; at the moment I am thinking of it as part of the journey I have to take. I feel that if I "expect" it to happen, it will be maybe a little easier when he does bring it to me.


The reassuring leg squeeze... As if he has a say in the outcome - like 'it will be ok'. Of course it will - you're taking charge of your destiny.
I'm a mom to a toddler and breastfed infant. My H - like yours (my impression) seems to think he helps out so much that I can't manage without him. He accompanies me to doctors aapointments and points out mothers who do it on their own. Well duh - I can and have taken them on their own many times. He works nights half the time so I'm alone with them all night and manage quite well. He doesn't give baths, give medicine, know how to put baby in car seat or even know how to go to the bathroom without handing me the baby. He's never taken both out alone. And somehow he points out where I lack? Whatever
My point, Mr. Tobio - whatever - go squeeze your own leg, Tobio will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

The leg sweeze from a man who is abandoning hs family. Does he think that's all he needs to do to show he cares? How anemic. 

I think you are letting him set the agenda and you have to ge out of the habit of deferring to him. He came to your house made himself feel good by asking you about your self and giving you a sweeze - he walks away feeling good with an inflated sense about what just happened. He is bring so supportive in his own mind - even if you are the blame he still offering so much support. What a good sport. 

You wanted him gone - make it happen. When he comes, you control that interactions. Don't give him a chance to offer his paltry brand of "support". He does not care how you feel or how the kids slept he needs to ask these things to satisfy his need to seem like a good guy. These questions are of no benifit to you, they obsolve his anemic sense of responsibility. The touch is kind of creepy. 

Id say control the interaction - business only, no questions about how you feel if he really cared he would not have abandoned you. the questions are to comfort him not you. Keep him off balance and cut off from any bit of comfort that he can derive from you. That is not mean - it protects you from emotional engagement and being used by him to make him feel good. 

He can no longer come to you fir reassurance he gave that up when he choose to leave. When he comes to get the kids or his stuff don't let him touch you and don't answer questions about what you are feeling. How does he think you feel? 

There is no reason that you need to listen to him disgorge himself about what he is doing with this woman. Again it benifits him and hurts you. He thinks he is being honest by sharing his activities and how they make him feel. You don't need to be his prestess listening to his confessions. He dumps his junk on you and walks away feeling like an honorable man because he told you. He is still the same inadequate man who abandoned his family so why should he come to you for comfort 

Let him get all of his emotional needs met by this woman. Don't be a stafety valve and sounding board. Talk about business only. Tell him that when he comes back no touching and no discussions of his new life. That's his business you no longer interested in him. Children and money that's it. No chit chat come get the kids and go. 

By letting him hang around, you are allowing him to comfort himself while you get nothing and even are pained.why do that for him and to yourself. When he begins to share cut him off and keep him off no matter what he says, he is on his own, he needs to find someone else for emotional support. 

He gives you nothing so he gets nothing in return and that's life. He will not find anyone like you so he better start adjusting to that reality. Let him pour his problems out to this woman, she may be suprised at what a weak needy man he is with out you to prop him up. 

Try to be really cool, don't let him think he is important to you or that a man like him can offer anything except keep up his responsibility to his kids. He will be forced to look at himself and present his real self to people knowing that you are no longer there to fix things. Try really hard but don't be disappointed in yourself if you don't get it right all the time just make it a goal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

No worries about the girl. What do you think this woman who would peruse a man who is the type to leave an infant child, wants from him? 

She wants your life. But hold on dont despair, she want something from him that he will never be able to give her. He seems like a good catch to a foolish woman - a smart woman would avoid like the plaque a cheater and irresponsible man who can walk away from his responsibility. 

She will see that he is too needy to give anything - what he found with you was a testament to your character not his. You made him look good - without you, he won't look so good to her. She will be suprised to see how insecure he is. 

When he starts to tell her his problems that he expects her to fix because you are not there, instead of support from her, he will be dispised for being weak. You dont want to stand in the way of that do you. Just sit back and observe. 

Rest assure, it will not last and it will not end well for him. And he will get a taste of what he really is as a man. You should really feel pity for him, he has a difficult journey of self discovery and the self he sees will not comfort his sense of Inferiority.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Catherine602 said:


> He can no longer come to you fir reassurance he gave that up when he choose to leave. When he comes to get the kids or his stuff don't let him touch you and don't answer questions about what you are feeling. How does he think you feel?
> 
> *Let him get all of his emotional needs met by this woman. *Don't be a stafety valve and sounding board. Talk about business only. Tell him that when he comes back no touching and no discussions of his new life. That's his business you no longer interested in him. Children and money that's it. No chit chat come get the kids and go.
> 
> By letting him hang around, you are allowing him to comfort himself while you get nothing and even are pained.why do that for him and to yourself. When he begins to share cut him off and keep him off no matter what he says, he is on his own, he needs to find someone else for emotional support.
> 
> He gives you nothing so he gets nothing in return and that's life. He will not find anyone like you so he better start adjusting to that reality. Let him pour his problems out to this woman, she may be suprised at what a weak needy man he is with out you to prop him up.


Excellent post, Catherine. 

Tobio, that's right... let him go. He wants out, she can have him. Don't be his back up girl or his sidepiece or his place for comfort. He lost that when he walked.


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## turnera

The reason I suggest writing a list of requirements is so that you can have in writing what the ideal husband looks like. Because, as strong as you are right now, you ARE going to have bad times. You'll have times where you want to call him, ask him back, find a way. Having this list will remind you of what things were like at their worst, so you don't backslide. It's a clarifier.


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## Jellybeans

Good idea about the list, Turnera. 

I made one of those when I split from my ex though I lost the list. I remember when I'd read it I would get sick thinking of all the BS.


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## Jellybeans

Ok so I just went back and read some of your original thread...the part about when you guys were having sex he asked you if you liked him treating you like dirt and if you were imagining him doing stuff w/ other woman...

WTF.

Tobio...you deserve way better.


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## JLynnMann

Tobio- remain strong. Remain steadfast. As said above he is all about himself and all the kind words and the pats or squeezes in the world do not mean he is sorry or he is trying to comfort you. His selfishness will not let that happen. It is truly all about HIM. 

It seems as if this were always the case- ME, ME, ME. Not wife, not children. Your children (all of them) deserve a man whom is a father figure, even those whom aren't biologically his.
My current husband and I have 1 child and another on the way that are biologically 'ours'. I have 3 more children. 2 from my past marriage, one from a 3 year relationship and they are 'ours' too. There is no difference in his eyes. My son whom is low on Autism spectrum and has severe ADHD is a handful and many have walked out on him early on in his life. He has anger issues and many extreme outbursts but my husband has been there since he was 2 and helped raise him. When he mentions 'our' children he is his son. 
My point is that there are men whom will take your children and treat them as their own- no matter whos they are biologically. If a man truly loves you he will accept and love your children also. If he doesn't he is absolutely not the man for you.
I think the list of your desires in a man is a GREAT idea! You don't have to settle for anyone. Your children and yourself deserve so much more- don't forget this. 

Hang in there sweetie. We are rooting for you and will support you through this journey!


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## tobio

All duly noted

Just wanted to vent... He called up mid-afternoon asking what I had planned for dinner? I was confused but he wasn't sure when to bring the baby back, and asked did I want to come out for a drive?

I was quite taken aback because I didn't expect that, and I was like, "what?" He backtracked and said, no, probably not a good idea. I didn't want to encourage keeping little old habits.

He brought the baby back a little later as he needed feeding and kept the toddler saying he would bring him back ready for bed. I texted later asking what sort of time he would be back with the toddler so I could work out which children to put to bed when. No reply.

I holed up on the sofa feeding the baby to sleep, it was getting later and I assumed he must have taken the toddler out for a drive to get him to nod off, something he does fairly frequently. I went upstairs to put the baby in his cot and noticed the toddler's bedroom door was closed- turns out ex-OH had come in, gone upstairs and put him to bed, picked up a bag of clothes I left by the door and gone again without saying anything.

I was furious- my first thought was what if there had been a fire or something and I had had to get the kids out, and not known the toddler was there? I called ex up- turns out then he had been knocking, I hadn't heard him, and he thought I was ignoring him, plus the fact I left some clothes by the door

I can read his tone- he is not a happy bunny. Sad. He was tyring to engage me again, asking how I was, went over (again) the fact he still loves me very much, his feelings for me haven't changed, but feels that in the long run after the dust has settled, it will be best for all involved. I cut him off asking what time would be best for him to pick up the babies tomorrow, we agreed a time and he commented he had to go shopping, there was nothing in the house.

Now this... He has moved in with a family friend not far round the corner. The house is habitable but not great, and he said there is absolutely nothing in to eat. I felt a little smug- this and other little things he mentioned are showing me he is starting to realise what it is like being on his own- bear in mind he moved in with me straight from his mum's so he's never lived on his own before.

I KNOW it's petty and small but I feel pleased he's finding all this out. Last night and today when we have conversed I can feel that he is trying to find that emotional support from me which I am not prepared to give. The comments about what has happened being the best thing- well although I have obviously been a bad judge of character with some of his personality traits, I am tell he is talking himself into it- after all, he didn't ACTIVELY choose to leave IYSWIM, he just didn't have the balls to do it. Well now he can see what it is like.

I felt a little down not long ago after all the kids were in bed. Silly really- I've been on my own every evening this week and felt pretty ok, but usually I look forward to family time at the weekend, so I guess I'm going to have to get used to it. I enjoy my own company, but I am worried I'm going to hit bottom soon and get to that "cry my eyes out" point, which I haven't done (yet.)


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## Jellybeans

tobio said:


> I can read his tone- he is not a happy bunny. Sad. He was tyring to engage me again, asking how I was, went over (again) the fact he still loves me very much, his feelings for me haven't changed, *but* feels that in the long run after the dust has settled, it will be best for all involved.


All waywards paint a nice picture and then totally invalidate what they said with teh big loud "BUT"... it's BS. 

LOL @ him asking what's for dinner. Uh uh, no way, no how. Don't be there for him anymore since he wants out. THe sooner you detach, the better for you and the faster he will get to experience what his decision is going to feel like.


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## Catherine602

Tabio - Dont be confused by his actions they are designed to keep you off balance, hoping to get him back and to get you to focus on him. Don't mistake this for an attempt to reconcile. If you read enough post you recognize the. actions of men who want to reconcile and those that are looking for something for nothing. 

These tentative fleeting attempts at getting you to listen to his garbage are fishing expeditions he wants to see if you are still hooked. Many women who are desperate to have the man back, misinterpret these weak signs as a chance he wants to get back. When the woman bites he distances himself, reassured that you are still his backup and he has the boost in his self confidence to get on with his new life. He takes on the emotional merry-go-round with him holding the brass ring just out of reach. Dont get on any rides controlled by him. 

Men who want to reconcile work hard at it, they are relentless in trying to win the woman back, you do not have to guess, he makes it clear. . Be prepared for these fishing expeditions don't get hooked it will sap you energy and self esteem. He is trying to take control, so he can come and go as he pleases. He'll pop in like you are a gas station for an emotional fill up. And then turn around and leave you wondering what just happened. Nothing happened he just got what he wanted from you. . 

Take control of the situation get what you need from him. You must tell him that you are not interested in drives or dinner with him and talks about what he thinks of the relationship. Let him know that he does not seem to understand, you have made the decision not him no more discussion is needed. It will be one of the most difficult things you have probably ever done but you must do it for your protection. 

Listening to him tell you he loves you is not good. It makes him feel good but you know love does not abandon. He has a warped idea of love you can calmly let him know you have decided you don't want his weak self centered love. . Say it with a smile, like you are refusing a used wad of chewing gum from a small child. He loves the sound of himself saying he loves you but he is incapable of loving like a mature man. Don't let him talk to you to make himself feel good, just the facts no more fishing expeditions. He is well and truly on his own.

A man who loves and wants to be with a woman pulls out all the stops. A man who wants to string a woman along tells half truths, does things to try to make the woman think there is hope. They come unexpectedly and at odd times because they are the product of a fleeting need of his. He is not thinking of you just what he can get from you. . 

He will keep searching for the open door to stick his foot in just enough to get reassurance that he is a good guy. Shut things up thight, if he wanted back you would not have to guess. He wants something from you, make it clear that he is not getting it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

Yup I can see the fishing expeditions for what they are. I think as long as he sees I still "feel", he feels better. I know he still loves me, in his own way, and this is the source of these prying questions, because he has a need to know I still love him. I don't think in his mind things ARE as cut and dried as it may come across, like I say, I think he is convincing himself this is the best way, but he is starting to realise that the reality isn't quite what he imagined.

I am not confused that he is trying to reconcile. I see what he is doing. I feel sad for him actually because I can feel his confusion. His insistence that it will be better in the long run AFTER the dust has settled... I don't think he realises that this is it. Time will pass but the feelings won't change so much. He said last night, " but we ARE cool though aren't we?" I hesitated. I knew what he meant- we could chat and be civil. I said, " if you mean we can be civil for the children, then yes, I think that is a good idea. But if you are asking if I am cool with things, then I feel exactly the same as I said yesterday. You are a coward who is abandoning his family." I left it at that. He isn't happy when he can't get a peaceful accepting response out of me.

He will be round later and I will try and keep things as brief as possible. We need to sort out when he is seeing and having the kids over the next few days so I know where *I* am- I need to get out and have some space, actually see some friends rather than just texting or chatting on the phone. Although the kids keep me welcomingly busy and help keep my mind off things, there is a certain element of isolation when you don't have much contact with grown ups from day to day. So that is my aim for the next couple of days.


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## Conrad

The male species likes to leave the door open.

It's not an endearing trait.


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## Catherine602

I think you handled this very well. He is living in a fantasy world where he thinks he can start a new life and wash his hands of the old one. He can not seem to see himself for what he is - a member of a small but disturbing group of men who can walk away from the people that depend on them. From what I have read, a mature man's sense of his sucess as a man is tied to his ability to have a family and to provide for them. That's why men work so hard when they get married. Your husband seems to be still a boy looking for a mother figure. 

I think you are so kind to ascribe any positive attributes to this man. I am not so generous but then again I dont know him I know what he has done. I put more credence on his actions than charming words and empty promises. I disagree with you about the confusion, he planned this when he took the girls number just in case. No fully committed man does that. He was out way before that happened but looking for a way out. He is confused about how to get out and still feel good about himself. Don't waste your sympathy. 

You still seem to be treating him with kid gloves like he is still your problem. Of course you can't turn off your feelings for a person you love but, I think you need to make a conscious effort to disengage from him. He is not the man you fell in love with, he does not really have the qualities that made you fall in live. When you look at this man before you realistically - would you fall in love with him now? You love the person you thought he was not what he really is. 

Thinking of that may make it easier to deal with him in a way that protects you. Remember he wants you to take care of him, to make him feel like the man he is not, to support his desire to walk away while you stay behind and cheer him on. He wants a mother not a wife. Keep reminding him of your reality when he floats his fantasy out for you. The let's be friends or we are cool or you still love me - are all reasonable in his worped world but, not in the real world. A man who abandons his family owes them. The hubris of expecting something from you after what he has done is astounding. 

Please don't enter into his fantasy and continue protecting him and supporting him. The best help you can give him is a healthy dose of reality. No support from you, no friendship, no reassurence that you love the man you see before you and a ruthless persuit of you and your kids stability and financial future. for this you will need very strong support from friends and family. 

I worry that You still seem to have a crack in the door about letting him back into your life. you have not told him in no uncertain terms that he is out and it is not his decision it is yours. He is not a man you want in your life. Hesitating is understandable, but given where he needs to be to get back in, I don't know if you want to wait the 10 or 20 yrs it will take for him to get there. 

You also have not mentioned legal matters. I would not assume that in the future bodes well for his continued financial support and taking his kids. This is a long-term 18 yr commitment for a man who does not honor them. he will want to get free of the financial burden and the lifeste of having two kids. 

His penchant for letting others influence him will play a role- none of his associates support his commitment to you so they will influence his feeling when he has to pay his living expenses and for kids too. There will not be much left over to live the life of a single man. That's why you need to get support nailed down legally now before he has time to harden.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Once I read he moved out of his mum's house and straight into yours? Alarm bells went off


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## Affaircare

Yep--he was looking for "a mother" to take care of him and that way he could continue being a teen...and we all know that teens have a room, bills are paid, no real responsibility but they get to keep their little PT paycheck and blow it on fun stuff. This is the mentality he is stuck in. So in a way this may be really good for him...to realize that being a mature adult means most time, money, attention goes to your family! 

Remember when there was the debate about making the list of what it would take to reconcile? I personally believe the list would be good because like Turnera said, it would be a written reminder to yourself that until you see X, Y and Z that you are being fooled. I don't know about you but you sound a little like me, in that I'm really practical and pretty rational but when it comes to men I love...shoot, I WANT to believe them! I WANT to believe they love me, wouldn't lie to me, etc. So without the written list to remind me, I'd do something like, "I looked in his eyes and he MEANT it" and all it was really was more hot air and lying. 

So I recommend two things that will probably help you clear your head some. #1--think about that list and probably these three things: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 #2--when he does his fishing, think of a way to succinctly say what's on your list and repeat that phrase over and over. 

Like this: "You want to know what I'm making for dinner? Oh does that mean you are willing to give 100% of your affection and loyalty only to me, write the no contact letter and commit to transparency? No? Hmmmm...I'm not making anything for you for dinner. Call me when you ARE ready. Bye." CLICK. 

"You want to know if we're cool? Oh does that mean you're ready to give 100% of your affection and loyalty only to me, write the no contact letter and commit to transparency? No? Then nope we are not cool. Call me when you ARE ready. Bye." CLICK.

That way if you have it kind of memorized and say it over and over and over every time he fishes, eventually he may figure out that the way to hook you is to be willing to give 100% of his affection and loyalty only to YOU, write the no contact letter and commit to transparency! LOL!


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## tobio

I am so confused...

Just when you think things are going well (or as well as can be expected in terms of establishing boundaries), it all gets messy.

I feel rather foolish but I will share anyway. I went to drop the LOs off with him and he mentioned did we want to go out later. I actually said yes, we'll take all the kids out together, thinking it would be nice as the older two are going on holiday tomorrow so we won't see them for over a week, and otherwise their last day at home would be spent away from their little siblings.

On the way back I thought, hang on, maybe not such a good idea. I thought of ways to excuse us from it; trouble is I spent so much time to-ing and fro-ing that before I knew it, he'd come round ready to go. So we all went out.

The going out itself was fine, pleasant if anything. The kids had a great time, we had polite but nice conversation. All was well until we got back to the car and accidentally "locked eyes." I looked away and felt really awkward but he'd noticed it too. We chatted a lot on the way back. I couldn't help but point out the irony of his feelings about our family situation (struggling with the older two kids) yet here he is with me taking all the kids out- something that with four rarely happens... He agreed, said it was worth it to spend some time with me. 

That threw me. Call me stupid but that was not in my "reality". This is why what Catherine says is sensible advice about being precise about boundaries and interactions.

However, this also brings up something AC has said. The list of things... Well yes. I do think it is a good idea. I do. The thing is... It's not going to work. Well, it could do- but the truth is that me insisting on transparency and loyalty is only EVER going to come second to him being able to find some way of dealing with the family situation. That is HIS prime factor in the current situation. And unless I am missing something HUGE, I cannot do ANYTHING about that. The frustration is immense for me. I honestly believe that if he had that breakthrough, the three things to rebuild trust would come after with little or no persuasion.

The way I see it now... I am stuck. I could legitimately lockdown, do what Catherine says and limit all interaction to strictly kids and money- the 180 as Bob explains it. I am sure he'd see me differently but ultimately this process WOULDN'T "solve" his issue. I don't know, however, if it might bring him to a point where he wants to come back so would be willing to think of ways of working on it. He just sees no way past it at the mo.


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## Affaircare

Yeah I hear what you're saying. In other words the really BIG issue is that he doesn't want to work and struggle and provide for someone else's kids even though he knew you had other kids and still married you. 

And I don't mean this with disrespect either. I also married a man who had kids because I LOVE children and really am willing to commit to them....BUT when you first take your vows, you don't envision the ex fighting you on every. single. decision. Or working like a dog only to have no say in your own home. Or being the one to "man up" and do the hard work only to be unappreciated and treated like "You're not my parent". I can not speak for your OH but for me, being an Admiration person myself, working against the ex who did everything in her power to make my life miserable only to have her worshipped and me dismissed...when I was doing ALL THE WORK... oh it was hard on my feelings. 

BUT part of the trouble is that as a grown up I have to do it anyway. I have to be responsible and work even if the teens don't appreciate it. I have to ignore the interfering manipulation of the ex--that's her problem. I have to do what's right for the kids and the family whether I get my ego stroked or not. I also have to do what's right for my marriage and protect that even if it takes energy and it's not easy! 

In short: he will need to grow up. So #1 on your list will be that he demonstrate to you via ACTIONS that he has dealt with this...maybe through counseling or something.


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## tobio

You know- it's not the money. Or the providing. And the ex- well, ex-OH and the older kids' dad were friends long before I knew either of them. Admittedly ex-OH didn't like the way their dad acted plenty of times early in our relationship,he was flaky and bailed out of arrangements enough times... However in the last two years or so, there have been no problems.

He basically resents that I had kids before we met. He feels deprived (for want of a better word) that we never had that just-us, couple time before choosing to have our kids. He feels guilty that most of his spare time goes on the little ones- and he doesn't WANT it to go on my kids. I am not saying any of this is right or wrong btw, just outlining some of his feelings.

He doesn't know what his role is- the older two HAVE a dad. He's not sure where he fits in I guess. 

My take FWIW is that he has spent so much time trying to "resist" the status quo that he has gotten to a point where he has realised he CAN'T resist it any more. But can't accept it. Or refuses to accept it. He says he has tried so hard but it makes him so unhappy. I believe he does not understand that he can realise that although he can't change the situation, he can change his RESPONSE to it. He says feelings are feelings, and you can't help them- I see where he is coming from.

But it doesn't help me to know how to support him with it IYSWIM.


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## Catherine602

Tabio I am not a marriage councilor but I am an observer of people and somewhat intuitive about what makes people tick based upon my profession. In order to be sucessful I had to learn to read people and convince them to get on board with the team. I am using that knowledge in my advice. There have been many studies on how to manage individual based on their personality and a good manager has to learn what works according to phychological research. 

He would come back if you accepted his conditions which are forget his transgression with this girl, regard him as an honest good man who would never cheat on you, accept the blame for having two older children and try to keep them out of his way as much as possible, aloe him to make friends with women if his ego needs stroking, hang out with his drinking buddy who is hostile to the marriage, make no damands on him to get up and help you with the baby if he has been out drinking and of course have wild sex with him to keep him from wondering. 

I may have forgotten something but the summary is that you bow down before him as the most valuable person in your universe. You may be able to win small concession here and there but the relationship will be about you meeting his needs and not expecting anything but an occasional leg squeeze and sorry this is so difficult for you statement. With this you can get him back if you wanted him that badly. 

If you think you life without him would be better. I think you would end up serving him for years losing a little bit of your self as tim goes on and becoming a his shadow. He will eventually grow careless of you and may even use you as the repository of all the blame for his failure. It would be very bad for you but good fo him and the relationship. 2 out of 3 ain't bad. 

You want him because you love him and you hope if you give him more he will finally start to give to you. But do you know that never works. People who are self -centered have no compassion or empathy for the feelings of others. They take because they have a black hole in their heart that can never be filled. They never get enough to be able to give back. Is your husband a giver or does give just enough to get twice as much in return? . 

I am going to be very critical in regard to your two oldest children who seem to need a strong advocate. You have said several times of his hostility towards their existence. His interactions with you after the outing with their absence was monstrous to me. I am putting my self in thier place they are most vulnerable humans in this because they face uncertainty when they should have the unconditional love of at lest on adult in their lives. An adult who would not even let the words be uttered that they stand in the way of a grown man's comfort. In essence what he is showing is life with him if only the two older kids did not exist. 

This man is emotionally blackmailing you by asking you to choose between your two helpless children and him because he does not want them around. This is an enormous horrible thing. They know they are not wanted and that is horrible that this one man is more important. He knows what it feels like to be abandoned by a parent but his horrible selfishnessgoers him entrain the notion of unseating two helpless kids as the price of his half- azz attempt at a relationship. . 

This monster of a man entertains the idea that they should not exist. That alone makes him a very bad man and some one to be avoided and not embrace. From the two oldest children's point of view, he is their enemy because he does not want them around. What a terrible thing for children to have in their home a man who laments their very existence. 

That is why I think he is not redeemable and he should be called out on what je is doing and should be shut out of you life except where it has to do with his kids. I would watch him with them as well they may become a liability if they get in his way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Catherine602 said:


> Tabio I am not a marriage councilor but I am an observer of people and somewhat intuitive about what makes people tick based upon my profession. In order to be sucessful I had to learn to read people and convince them to get on board with the team. I am using that knowledge in my advice. There have been many studies on how to manage individual based on their personality and a good manager has to learn what works according to phychological research.
> 
> He would come back if you accepted his conditions which are forget his transgression with this girl, regard him as an honest good man who would never cheat on you, accept the blame for having two older children and try to keep them out of his way as much as possible, aloe him to make friends with women if his ego needs stroking, hang out with his drinking buddy who is hostile to the marriage, make no damands on him to get up and help you with the baby if he has been out drinking and of course have wild sex with him to keep him from wondering.
> 
> I may have forgotten something but the summary is that you bow down before him as the most valuable person in your universe. You may be able to win small concession here and there but the relationship will be about you meeting his needs and not expecting anything but an occasional leg squeeze and sorry this is so difficult for you statement. With this you can get him back if you wanted him that badly.
> 
> If you think you life without him would be better. I think you would end up serving him for years losing a little bit of your self as tim goes on and becoming a his shadow. He will eventually grow careless of you and may even use you as the repository of all the blame for his failure. It would be very bad for you but good fo him and the relationship. 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
> 
> You want him because you love him and you hope if you give him more he will finally start to give to you. But do you know that never works. People who are self -centered have no compassion or empathy for the feelings of others. They take because they have a black hole in their heart that can never be filled. They never get enough to be able to give back. Is your husband a giver or does give just enough to get twice as much in return? .
> 
> I am going to be very critical in regard to your two oldest children who seem to need a strong advocate. You have said several times of his hostility towards their existence. His interactions with you after the outing with their absence was monstrous to me. I am putting my self in thier place they are most vulnerable humans in this because they face uncertainty when they should have the unconditional love of at lest on adult in their lives. An adult who would not even let the words be uttered that they stand in the way of a grown man's comfort. In essence what he is showing is life with him if only the two older kids did not exist.
> 
> This man is emotionally blackmailing you by asking you to choose between your two helpless children and him because he does not want them around. This is an enormous horrible thing. They know they are not wanted and that is horrible that this one man is more important. He knows what it feels like to be abandoned by a parent but his horrible selfishnessgoers him entrain the notion of unseating two helpless kids as the price of his half- azz attempt at a relationship. .
> 
> This monster of a man entertains the idea that they should not exist. That alone makes him a very bad man and some one to be avoided and not embrace. From the two oldest children's point of view, he is their enemy because he does not want them around. What a terrible thing for children to have in their home a man who laments their very existence.
> 
> That is why I think he is not redeemable and he should be called out on what je is doing and should be shut out of you life except where it has to do with his kids. I would watch him with them as well they may become a liability if they get in his way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to say I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Catherine... these posts you made are seriously awesome and SO spot on!

I totally agree w/ this whole thing:



Catherine602 said:


> Tabio - Dont be confused by his actions they are designed to keep you off balance, hoping to get him back and to get you to focus on him. Don't mistake this for an attempt to reconcile. If you read enough post you recognize the. actions of men who want to reconcile and those that are looking for something for nothing.
> 
> *These tentative fleeting attempts at getting you to listen to his garbage are fishing expeditions he wants to see if you are still hooked.* Many women who are desperate to have the man back, misinterpret these weak signs as a chance he wants to get back. When the woman bites he distances himself, reassured that you are still his backup and he has the boost in his self confidence to get on with his new life. He takes on the emotional merry-go-round with him holding the brass ring just out of reach. Dont get on any rides controlled by him.
> 
> Men who want to reconcile work hard at it, they are relentless in trying to win the woman back, you do not have to guess, he makes it clear. . Be prepared for these fishing expeditions don't get hooked it will sap you energy and self esteem. He is trying to take control, so he can come and go as he pleases. He'll pop in like you are a gas station for an emotional fill up. And then turn around and leave you wondering what just happened. Nothing happened he just got what he wanted from you. .
> 
> Take control of the situation get what you need from him. You must tell him that you are not interested in drives or dinner with him and talks about what he thinks of the relationship. Let him know that he does not seem to understand, you have made the decision not him no more discussion is needed. It will be one of the most difficult things you have probably ever done but you must do it for your protection.
> 
> *Listening to him tell you he loves you is not good. It makes him feel good but you know love does not abandon. He has a warped idea of love you can calmly let him know you have decided you don't want his weak self centered love.* . Say it with a smile, like you are refusing a used wad of chewing gum from a small child. *He loves the sound of himself saying he loves you but he is incapable of loving like a mature man*. Don't let him talk to you to make himself feel good, just the facts no more fishing expeditions. He is well and truly on his own.
> 
> A man who loves and wants to be with a woman pulls out all the stops.* A man who wants to string a woman along tells half truths, does things to try to make the woman think there is hope. They come unexpectedly and at odd times because they are the product of a fleeting need of his. He is not thinking of you just what he can get from you*. .
> 
> *He will keep searching for the open door to stick his foot in just enough to get reassurance that he is a good guy*. Shut things up thight, if he wanted back you would not have to guess. *He wants something from you, make it clear that he is not getting it.*_Posted via Mobile Device_





Catherine602 said:


> *He would come back if you accepted his conditions *which are forget his transgression with this girl, regard him as an honest good man who would never cheat on you, accept the blame for having two older children and try to keep them out of his way as much as possible, aloe him to make friends with women if his ego needs stroking, hang out with his drinking buddy who is hostile to the marriage, make no damands on him to get up and help you with the baby if he has been out drinking and of course have wild sex with him to keep him from wondering.
> 
> I may have forgotten something but the summary is that you bow down before him as the most valuable person in your universe. *You may be able to win small concession here and there but the relationship will be about you meeting his needs and not expecting anything but an occasional leg squeeze and sorry this is so difficult for you statement. With this you can get him back if you wanted him that badly. *
> 
> If you think you life without him would be better. I think you would end up serving him for years losing a little bit of your self as tim goes on and becoming a his shadow. He will eventually grow careless of you and may even use you as the repository of all the blame for his failure. It would be very bad for you but good fo him and the relationship. 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
> 
> You want him because you love him and you hope if you give him more he will finally start to give to you. But do you know that never works. *People who are self -centered have no compassion or empathy for the feelings of others. They take because they have a black hole in their heart that can never be filled. They never get enough to be able to give back.* Is your husband a giver or does give just enough to get twice as much in return? .
> 
> This man is emotionally blackmailing you by asking you to choose between your two helpless children and him because he does not want them around.


Excellent post! Seriously it sounds like he wants the relationship on HIS terms. Well what about you/ What do you get/ The title of having a "husband" or "man" in your life and nothing else? While he reaps the benefits of having you there, always there, doing what he wants, when he wants, conceding every step of the way, never bringing up his cheating or any faults and worse, him acdting like your children are a nuissance to his life. No way,man. Your kids are going to look for you as their role model. If they think you choose him over them they will resent you eventually and that is no good. 

My ex tried the same w/ me (no kids though) Told me we could be together but ONLY after I signed the divorce he petitioned, agreed to everything in it and signed our house over to him! He said we could start up again living together even the same day we signed the divorce. I thought, ya we coud still be together..but at what price? Go from wife to roommate? In the end I told him, "Thanks but, no thanks. You want a divorce, no problem, but you lose me in the process." Then he tried to tell me I was the one who wanted nothing to do with him. 

I know I wouldn't have been happy being in a situation where I was offered crumbs while he was reaping all the benefits. 

My advice is to cut him off completely. Tell him if he wants out, Goodbye. Don't hold his hand while he walks away from you and crushes everything you ever believed in him.


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## turnera

Catherine, great last post. I, too, ached for the older kids. They will have problems in life if things don't improve.

tobio, I think you misunderstood the purpose for the list. 

YOU write the list, and YOU keep the list. By writing it, you are affirming to YOURSELF what you require in a husband - ANY husband. It will make you feel better, more empowered, and more loved. "I deserve..." is a great device.

Hide it away in a drawer, then, once you've written it. Forget about it. Then, if this guy ever shows up again and wants you back, remember it, go 'aha!' and run and get it, and hand it to him. Because, by then, you'll have taken better care of yourself (and your kids), you'll be more empowered, and you'll have realized you don't NEED him. So, then, if he comes back (still not having learned anything, more than likely), you can hand it to him and say 'are you willing to do these things? No? Ok, well, thanks anyway' and walk on.


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## Catherine602

turnera said:


> Catherine, great last post. I, too, ached for the older kids. They will have problems in life if things don't improve.
> 
> tobio, I think you misunderstood the purpose for the list.
> 
> YOU write the list, and YOU keep the list. By writing it, you are affirming to YOURSELF what you require in a husband - ANY husband. It will make you feel better, more empowered, and more loved. "I deserve..." is a great device.
> 
> Hide it away in a drawer, then, once you've written it. Forget about it. Then, if this guy ever shows up again and wants you back, remember it, go 'aha!' and run and get it, and hand it to him. Because, by then, you'll have taken better care of yourself (and your kids), you'll be more empowered, and you'll have realized you don't NEED him. So, then, if he comes back (still not having learned anything, more than likely), you can hand it to him and say 'are you willing to do these things? No? Ok, well, thanks anyway' and walk on.


Turnera I misunderstood you original suggestion about the list. I think it is an excellent exercise. I read over some older post of this situation and I do think a change in requirements for a mate is needed.

I hope you are doing well Tabio and enjoying your time with friends and family. 
One question - are you doing his laundry? If so please stop, let him take care of himself completely. He is not honoring even the basic responsibility to you. He makes your life unhappy and even painful, why do anything to make his life easier. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> But it doesn't help me to know how to support him with it IYSWIM.


Tabio Look at this statement. Look really hard and think really hard. May I tell you what I see? 

Here is a woman who has a man who takes the phone number of another woman just in case things don't work out with her. He continues to communicate with the woman, he is sympathetic to the unhappiness she is experiencing because he has been forced to give her up. He gets her sweets and eventually text her in commiseration. At the same time, he shows no sympathy for his wife and children for trampling on their feelings. 

This girl is more important to him than even his baby. Why, because she seems to be all about him. He is intoxicated by the attention to himself, and his world revolves around him. 

This woman has put up with a great deal of pain and anxiety with this self- centered man, she has tried to support and help him to overcome the problems from his past. He does not appear to value or respect the quality of her assistance, her love, her devotion. 

He cuts and runs when he is no longer the center of her universe and she begins to ask him to give her what she needs. He does not think that she needs anything, he thinks of her only in reference to how much she adores him and panders to his every need and problem. She is left to solve her own problems, after all that she has done for him. 

Yet she makes the rather astonishing statement above. How can SHE SUPPORT HIM!! She needs him to support her, to give to her, to comfort her, to man up for her, something she is not getting. But she still wants to give to a man who has treated her and the children he brought into the world with utter lack of love and support.

Tabio he does not need or deserve your support. It will make no difference how much you support and understand him he will never be able to support you and his own kids. His feelings about you two older children are cruel and self serving, how do you help someone with that. 

Tabio You can start now on changing the dynamics of how you view relationships with men by working on drawing back you capacity for kindness and understanding. Don't cast your pearl among the swine. Stop giving to this man, he is a millionaire in terms of emotional support from you and you are a bankrupt. Who is giving to whom? How can he even stand to take anything from you with that balance sheet. 

No man gets your valuable gifts until he earns it. Make that a reality starting now. Practicing this with a selfish man will make it easier when you have a normal man. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Catherine602 said:


> This girl is more important to him than even his baby. Why, because she seems to be all about him. He is intoxicated by the attention to himself, and his world revolves around him.


And THIS is why it is so paramount that you go completely dark on him. The sooner he gets to feel what life is going to be like without you, the better. Let her meet all of his needs. Don't be there for him. 

DO NOT walk him through the entire process of leaving you. He may need support but the last person who should be giving it to him is you. He is leaving you. You don't reward someone when they are abandoning you.


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## tobio

You know what Catherine, you mentioned me wanting him to "man up..." I said that to him the other day. I wanted him to man up, to take charge and say "this is how it's going to be" and face up to his responsibilities. I think that went over his head.

Well much as I hate to say it, it was a great weekend. Mostly with him. We ended up doing a couple of things me and him had planned for a while but not got round to doing with the little ones, and we both said that appreciating the irony of recent events, it's the best weekend we've both had in a long time.

He said a couple of things over the weekend in passing that I took note of. Positive things. However, he also said a couple of things that made me think he still doesn't get it. Swings and roundabouts. 

We both said we weren't sure what "this" is (ie the relationship situation.) He said he felt it was us together as a couple but living separately. I was surprised. Sort of. At the time I was, but looking back to him saying it and how we'd been acting, he was basically right. It's odd; it really has been like us being a couple and you'd almost get the impression everything was "normal" until something to do with the situation gets brought up in conversation and all of a sudden we're brought back down to earth with a jolt.

It's not a good place. Well it is, until we realise that yes, actually there *are* still the same problems there that need sorting out. I'm past pushing and suggesting he could do this or that; tbh I know it has to come from him. Yes I still am holding out hope; I can see how difficult he has found it already. I am hoping the pull of his feelings will persuade him that he *can* do it, make the changes needed.


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## Catherine602

Don't hate to say it. It easy for me to look from afar and tell what should and should not be done but when I think about it, hope is the very last thing to go in life, it is that strong. I feel so fierce to protect you from having your hope manipulated. I hate to see you go on the rollercoasyer ride. I have seen so many men and women take this ride on this forum it seems rather predictable. It is classic, the disloyals seem to be reading from the same script. Be prepared for a pull back from him and maybe "it's me not you" type thing. 

You have to take this journey and when you are ready, you will decide that it is really not worth it. Right now there seems to be hope but I don't think be is he is thinking the same way you are. . I still think you are his reserve and the weekend that gave you hope, gave him the emotional support he needs to proceed with his new life. That may become apparent in the next few days if he becomes more distant. If he is talking to this girl he may have told her about the W/E. It will probably make her more determined. If he does tell her, he knows that she will respond like you are the competition. That may have been the reason for the W/E to make her want him more because she has competition. 

However, I think a 100 angles on the same set of facts, that's because of my line of work. I am wrong most of the time. I hope that I am wrong now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Catherine602 said:


> Don't hate to say it. It easy for me to look from afar and tell what should and should not be done but when I think about it, hope is the very last thing to go in life, it is that strong. I feel so fierce to protect you from having your hope manipulated. I hate to see you go on the rollercoasyer ride. I have seen so many men and women take this ride on this forum it seems rather predictable. It is classic, the disloyals seem to be reading from the same script. Be prepared for a pull back from him and maybe "it's me not you" type thing.
> 
> You have to take this journey and when you are ready, you will decide that it is really not worth it. Right now there seems to be hope but I don't think be is he is thinking the same way you are. . I still think you are his reserve and the weekend that gave you hope, gave him the emotional support he needs to proceed with his new life. That may become apparent in the next few days if he becomes more distant. If he is talking to this girl he may have told her about the W/E. It will probably make her more determined. If he does tell her, he knows that she will respond like you are the competition. That may have been the reason for the W/E to make her want him more because she has competition.
> 
> However, I think a 100 angles on the same set of facts, that's because of my line of work. I am wrong most of the time. I hope that I am wrong now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The weekend gave me a bad feeling. I don't think it's sincere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy

tobio said:


> Well much as I hate to say it, it was a great weekend. Mostly with him. We ended up doing a couple of things me and him had planned for a while but not got round to doing with the little ones, and we both said that appreciating the irony of recent events, it's the best weekend we've both had in a long time.
> 
> He said a couple of things over the weekend in passing that I took note of. Positive things. However, he also said a couple of things that made me think he still doesn't get it. Swings and roundabouts.
> 
> We both said we weren't sure what "this" is (ie the relationship situation.) He said he felt it was us together as a couple but living separately. I was surprised. Sort of. At the time I was, but looking back to him saying it and how we'd been acting, he was basically right. It's odd; it really has been like us being a couple and you'd almost get the impression everything was "normal" until something to do with the situation gets brought up in conversation and all of a sudden we're brought back down to earth with a jolt.
> 
> It's not a good place. Well it is, until we realise that yes, actually there *are* still the same problems there that need sorting out. I'm past pushing and suggesting he could do this or that; tbh I know it has to come from him. Yes I still am holding out hope; I can see how difficult he has found it already. I am hoping the pull of his feelings will persuade him that he *can* do it, make the changes needed.


You know, this made me think of the time my husband and I were at a homecoming game with my college boyfriend. After the game, my husband laughed and said that anyone who didn't know us would have thought that my college boyfriend and I were married and that he was the one we'd run into at the alumni brunch before the game. My ex (ex?? after 20 years...I'm not even sure that's the word it's been so long, lol) and I have been to a hundred football games, we know the fight songs, we know the yells, we had the outfits.... My poor hubby didn't even go to a football school and wasn't in college until he was seriously older than most other people there, so he just goes and....watches the game in silence (how weird is that, lol). He sits down and everything...it's bizarre.

But I guess my point is that for this one afternoon, it was very easy to fall into the comfortable old pattern of the two people that went to all the college football games for years and years. Never mind our crappy breakup way back when or that we haven't seen or even really communicated with each other for almost 20 years or since that game. 

Especially when things are up in the air, try not to mistake the _habit_ of being together for changes. When you've been together a long time, it's easy to get along most of the time, it doesn't mean that things are good, or different by any means.


----------



## tobio

Catherine602 said:


> You have to take this journey and when you are ready, you will decide that it is really not worth it. Right now there seems to be hope but I don't think be is he is thinking the same way you are. . I still think you are his reserve and the weekend that gave you hope, gave him the emotional support he needs to proceed with his new life. That may become apparent in the next few days if he becomes more distant. If he is talking to this girl he may have told her about the W/E. It will probably make her more determined. If he does tell her, he knows that she will respond like you are the competition. That may have been the reason for the W/E to make her want him more because she has competition.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am going out on a limb here given the previous turn of events. I am also prepared to be proved wrong, I am not "certain", but I don't think she is in the picture any more. It was fairly obvious she saw an opportunity when things happened with me and him, but AFAIK he ignored her and she hasn't contacted him since, nor him her.



golfergirl said:


> The weekend gave me a bad feeling. I don't think it's sincere.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm. The jury is still out.



COGypsy said:


> Especially when things are up in the air, try not to mistake the _habit_ of being together for changes. When you've been together a long time, it's easy to get along most of the time, it doesn't mean that things are good, or different by any means.


Oh yes, I have been very conscious to not feel like we have slipped back into our relationship. I basically just wanted to enjoy some fun time with him and the little ones without ruining it by constantly questioning what "this" was. Not just for my own state of mind but I didn't want to ruin the little ones' day either by us falling out.

What I think? Well... I think he is finding it easier for a couple of reasons. First, the older two are on holiday all week. I think it is easier for him to put the family problem to the back of his mind. Secondly, we are in the midst here of a short working couple of weeks with national holidays. The long weekends mean we're "away" from the mundanity of day-to-day life. We can get out, enjoy free time without having to think about what "normal" means.

I am not endowing this weekend with any special meaning in that he wants to make the commitment to our relationship again. I know it has taken him a surprisingly short amount of time to understand what he would be missing/has missed even though he's technically been living apart from us for only a few days. He started telling me the other day of some surprisingly meaningful things he knew that only we shared- and I mean the kind of stuff I'd probably think and smile about, but never, ever, expect him to say off his own back. Stuff we share and little things about me he'd never said before that he was fond of. It was nice.

Having said that, it is apparent it is still fairly firm in his mind about the family situation. As I have said, nothing has changed with that. I know he has been thinking about it. And with this, I am thinking that it is driving me crazy with things being like this. Oh, he isn't having any of the benefits of home comforts. He was joking he'd have to do his own laundry. The luxury he is having is of my time. And I don't think I can share that much more with knowing all the time he has not made that step to change. I feel it would be counter-productive to nudge him, have deep conversations about it. I don't even think bringing up the fact that counselling is booked for next week and would he come will make any difference (I will probably mention it and leave it at that as to whether he suggests himself to come along.)

I am now figuring out my next move. He is back at work today for three days then we have another long weekend where I highly suspect that if I don't "do" anything, we will end up spending the time together again just like we are back together. Maybe I *do* need to let him miss me. See I have boundaries (I'm sure I do somewhere )


----------



## turnera

tobio said:


> He is back at work today for three days then we have another long weekend where I highly suspect that if I don't "do" anything, we will end up spending the time together again just like we are back together. Maybe I *do* need to let him miss me. See I have boundaries (I'm sure I do somewhere )


What are you telling him by hanging out with him after he cut up your heart?

*That you are ok with him doing it.*

Show some spine (no offense), and be outraged. That's the ONLY way he will ever respect you, regret what he did, and hit rock bottom so he can change.


----------



## Catherine602

Tabio I understand that the time that you spend with him is very seductive, it is meant to be. The benifits still go to him only. You get uncertainty and longing for a man father and husband and he gets to play house for a while and bask in your warmth. He gives nothing, sacrifices nothing, it is a pleasant WE break in the presence of a warm and welcoming woman. He knows he will not give you what you need, he ad much as told you. 

Men are for the most part honest, they say what they mean. However, from what I have observed with friends and family, after that honesty they will hold out a little olive branch so they don't feel like the bad guy. Women whi do not wabt the relationship to end, seem to invariably take that little offering to mean that the man will change his mind. They hang their future on that and may keep themselves in limbo for years. A selfish man will manipulate the hope and use the wan as a spacer till someone he falls in love with comes along. 

Tabio believe what your husband has said and not the little niceties that amount to nothing. He has been honest but is too selfish and insecure to go it alone. He is depending on you to help him free himself from his obligations. You are entering into his the fantasy that his bid for freedom is OK with you because he sees you as a mother figure who will love hom no mayter what he does. 

He has done nothing to get back in your life and here he is getting yhe same companioship as if he was still commted to his family. The fact that you are not doing his laundry means nothing, you are giving him what he really needs from you, emotional support and reassurence that you are cool with his mew life. 

I know it is difficult but you are allowing yourself to be lulled into a sitiation where you are repeating a pattern. You fail to recognize your true value - it is not what you do for him but what you are. You are selling yourself short and allowng him to devalue what you have given to the relationship. The value his places on you is reflected on how far he is willing to go to make you feel loved, happy and secure. Has he expended any energy in these areas? You'll notice that he was quick to go out of his way for a woman he knew for a few months by texting her and bringing her candy even though he risked hurting you. Has he taken any risk to love you? 

Your statement about his contact with the girl is at best nieve. Don't assume that it is over by any stretch of the imagination. His need for fe adoration is strong, under the cercstances, she or any woman who sees him as free for the taking will be hard to resist. I just want you to be prepared and mostly I want you to protect yourself. 

He does not want to look bad to his mother, these outings makes it seem as if he is supporting you and of course he is not. 

thing is cool When he has found the one for him he breaks off all contact. She feels used and lied to and he feels justified. They are boyh right, she lied to herself and he is justified because he was truthful. There is really no such thing as double messages. Most men are very clear and stray foward but they hate to seem like bad guys. If you understand that then life is much easier and less confusing. 

He meant what he said, he said it more than once. He is not likely to come back into the family fold. He will enjoy what ever you offer him. He also knows that you are hoping, an good man would be honorable and cut off things surgically and make sure not to give false hope so as not to re-injure the woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

turnera said:


> *What are you telling him by hanging out with him after he cut up your heart?*
> 
> *That you are ok with him doing it.*
> 
> *Show some spine (no offense), and be outraged. That's the ONLY way he will ever respect you, regret what he did, and hit rock bottom so he can change*.





Catherine602 said:


> Tabio I understand that the time that you spend with him is very seductive, it is meant to be. The benifits still go to him only. You get uncertainty and longing for a man father and husband and he gets to play house for a while and bask in your warmth. He gives nothing, sacrifices nothing, it is a pleasant WE break in the presence of a warm and welcoming woman. *He knows he will not give you what you need, he ad much as told you. *
> 
> Men are for the most part honest, they say what they mean. However, from what I have observed with friends and family, after that honesty they will hold out a little olive branch so they don't feel like the bad guy. Women whi do not wabt the relationship to end, seem to invariably take that little offering to mean that the man will change his mind. They hang their future on that and may keep themselves in limbo for years. A selfish man will manipulate the hope and use the wan as a spacer till someone he falls in love with comes along.
> 
> Tabio believe what your husband has said and not the little niceties that amount to nothing. He has been honest but is too selfish and insecure to go it alone. He is depending on you to help him free himself from his obligations. You are entering into his the fantasy that his bid for freedom is OK with you because he sees you as a mother figure who will love hom no mayter what he does.
> 
> *He has done nothing to get back in your life and here he is getting yhe same companioship as if he was still commted to his family*. The fact that you are not doing his laundry means nothing, you are giving him what he really needs from you, emotional support and reassurence that you are cool with his mew life.
> 
> I know it is difficult but you are allowing yourself to be lulled into a sitiation where you are repeating a pattern. You fail to recognize your true value - it is not what you do for him but what you are. You are selling yourself short and allowng him to devalue what you have given to the relationship. *The value his places on you is reflected on how far he is willing to go to make you feel loved, happy and secure. Has he expended any energy in these areas? *You'll notice that he was quick to go out of his way for a woman he knew for a few months by texting her and bringing her candy even though he risked hurting you. Has he taken any risk to love you?
> 
> Your statement about his contact with the girl is at best nieve. Don't assume that it is over by any stretch of the imagination. His need for fe adoration is strong, under the cercstances, she or any woman who sees him as free for the taking will be hard to resist. I just want you to be prepared and mostly I want you to protect yourself.
> 
> He does not want to look bad to his mother, these outings makes it seem as if he is supporting you and of course he is not.
> 
> thing is cool When he has found the one for him he breaks off all contact. She feels used and lied to and he feels justified. They are boyh right, she lied to herself and he is justified because he was truthful. There is really no such thing as double messages. Most men are very clear and stray foward but they hate to seem like bad guys. If you understand that then life is much easier and less confusing.
> 
> He meant what he said, he said it more than once. He is not likely to come back into the family fold. *He will enjoy what ever you offer him. He also knows that you are hoping,* an good man would be honorable and cut off things surgically and make sure not to give false hope so as not to re-injure the woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't have much time now to type, but I have read through these two posts several times just now taking it all in. The bits in bold stood out to me in particular but all is meaningful.

I have been cogitating this today. He said something earlier which I know was only said in jest, in passing, but I honestly feel comments like these (especially from him) are very telling of people's true feelings. It was a flippant comment about him being a "loveable rogue." He was talking about his demeanour and how it had got him out of a lot of trouble in the past. I don't think he realised what he was saying but it stood out bold as brass to me. He has said a few other things that when I look now, are SCREAMING about his lack of respect for me for how I am responding (and I realise I *have* been responding, rather than consciously putting out there my position.)

The truth is, I cannot "do" anything more with this spending time together like nothing has happened. I am feeling more and more empty within myself and have realised I am doing my best to show him that "here" is a good place to be. When actually what should be happening is he should be showing me remorse, empathy and his willingness to action change. I looked at myself today and I felt so sad at what I saw and how I was letting myself be treated.

I said to him yesterday that I was angry with myself for letting "that" girl take up so much of my headspace for so long, which I genuinely am, I made her more important in my life than she ever should have been. He listened. The next day, after we'd been out, he switched his phone on and there was a voicemail message. He listened to it with a funny expression on his face. I asked, "what's up?" Yes, I did wonder if it might be her. He said, "nothing. Why? Are you wondering who it was? I thought you weren't going to worry about that anymore?"

I sighed inwardly. I said that that wasn't what I said, I said I didn't WANT to think about her any more, but that didn't mean that I didn't still feel concerned about it. I realise now he did NOTHING to reassure me, he never actually told me who it was, or even just that it wasn't her. He really doesn't want to feel any consequences because he doesn't see what happened there as the main issue. There's no outstanding or real effort present on his part now.

I plan to reassess tomorrow whilst he's at work and take steps then when I have had sleep and feel a bit more clear-headed. It will involve taking steps to distance myself more because I can't carry on like this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

tobio said:


> I said to him yesterday that I was angry with myself for letting "that" girl take up so much of my headspace for so long, which I genuinely am, I made her more important in my life than she ever should have been. He listened. The next day, after we'd been out, he switched his phone on and there was a voicemail message. He listened to it with a funny expression on his face. I asked, "what's up?" Yes, I did wonder if it might be her. He said, "nothing. Why? Are you wondering who it was? I thought you weren't going to worry about that anymore?"


What a complete and total jerk. You told him in honesty that this skank taking up space in your head is hurting you and that you need to find a way to let that part go. He then uses it as some sort of sick and cruel joke to taunt and tease you and further the mind games. He is sadistic and deserves nothing more than your shoelaces in his mouth. I am not a violent person by any stretch of the word but this guy, this guy, wow! Any chance you have a burly brother or a cousin? Preferably Irish or Scottish? Any chance you know somebody who competes in the Highland Games who can toss him like a 50 foot log?


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## COGypsy

Hmmm.....let me get out my Handy Dandy Guy-Girl Dictionary here....

Oh yes, here it is--

"lovable rogue" = Peter Pan 

:lol:

And it's true....His very own NeverNeverLand! He's magically back in your good graces, those pesky older kids are off somewhere in the real world and when mysterious voice mails appear out of the blue, HE'S the one who's offended by even a casual inquiry about it. 

Does he have one of those funny green hats, by any chance to go with his little nickname for himself?? I'm just curious....


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## Therealbrighteyes

COGypsy said:


> Hmmm.....let me get out my Handy Dandy Guy-Girl Dictionary here....
> 
> Oh yes, here it is--
> 
> "lovable rogue" = Peter Pan
> 
> :lol:
> 
> And it's true....His very own NeverNeverLand! He's magically back in your good graces, those pesky older kids are off somewhere in the real world and when mysterious voice mails appear out of the blue, HE'S the one who's offended by even a casual inquiry about it.
> 
> Does he have one of those funny green hats, by any chance to go with his little nickname for himself?? I'm just curious....


Can I give him the nickname if he doesn't already have one? Oh please, oh please!!!


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## turnera

Peter Pan is too good for him.



> I looked at myself today and I felt so sad at what I saw and how I was letting myself be treated.


Honey, you've done nothing wrong. You've tried to love an egotistical, selfish man, and you've been trampled. It happens.

But you're now doing what's right - pulling away from him and declaring to him and the world that you DESERVE MORE. 

Now that you're on the right path, congratulate yourself. It's the most important step, that first one. And you've taken it.

If you've got time, find some other threads and read them, and see how the other women went through the exact same things as you, gave of themselves, blamed themselves, got walked all over, and finally got it together and dusted themselves off...and prospered. 

Trust in yourself - you're getting there!


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## COGypsy

Brennan said:


> Can I give him the nickname if he doesn't already have one? Oh please, oh please!!!


Only if I get the hat! I do love me a festive feathered hat! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

What I'm getting from this is that your husband has checked out emotionally yet is stringing you along for support until he finally cuts it off for good. 

The only reason he is hanging with you/talking to you/saying nice things, giving you a leg squeeze is so that he knows he has a safety net and because he's used to you always being there for him. He knows you still want to be with him and it strikes his ego yet he already has one foot out the door.

People who do this piss me off. If they were mature and honest they could just tell their partners: "This relationshp isn't what I want anymore, I am not happy and it's best we go our separate ways. [And yes I am having an affair and plan on pursuing it.] I am sorry I have hurt you but it would be worse to stay in this and lie to you when my heart isn't in it 100%."

While it would suck hearing that, they would at least be honest and you would have some closure.

But not this dude. He comes close, gets his fix, and then scurries off like a little boy. It's wrong.

You deserve better. But you already knew that.



turnera said:


> If you've got time, find some other threads and read them, and see how the other women went through the exact same things as you, gave of themselves, blamed themselves, got walked all over, and finally got it together and dusted themselves off...and prospered.


Yep!


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## Catherine602

Tobio (sorry I have been misspelling you screen name I am dyslexic) it is so common to blame yourself for relationship problems and to come at it from the position of powerlessness. The good thing is that you have the power, all of the answers you need and a way back to happiness. 

Dorothy had her red shoes in the Wizard of Oz, you have your wonderful warmth, compassion for others, intuitive understanding of people, mental resiliency and loving nature. Better than a pair of shoes that take you on one trip. 

You have all of the answers you know what to do. What you don't have is a proper appreciation of your value. You allow this man and probably others to treat you as if you are below average in the human pantheon. When you are really quite extraordinary, that much is obvious from your post. Where did you get the notion that your value was only in how much you gave selflessly? 

I have the same problem thats why I recognize it in you.

Right now you are focusing on getting love from someone who may not be able to love anyone, lest of all himself. That will be a life long struggle for him. His statements about being a rouge and getting away with things appears similar to other things he has said. 

He couches his barbs in jokes and jest a sniggling and stealthy sort of way to say hurtful things. It the technique of an insecure weak man. He tells you but you are not sure, be sure what he tells you these things he is revealing how he thinks and he is telling you to your face that he is running a fine game on you. It's a back hand slap in the face. 

He is telling you a great deal in these statements. You were preceptive, take all of those jokey statements together and you have the psychology of this man. 

So what about you Tobio - you pulled in a stray cat with the mange and soothed him but instead of being grateful he scratches your arms. He wants to go back out and roam about get another case of the mange and be pitiful again. Don't feel sorry for his foolishness or feel bad that you tried to help him and love him. 

Rather you should feel pity for him. Definitely don't let the stray have the nerve to disrespect you!!! He deserves your contempt to be so foolish to turn away form riches and he needs to be put in his proper place. 

Every time the jokey barbs come tell him about himself, you know his weak points, use some barbs of your own, I know you know how be just as friendly. Don't let him get the idea that he pulling anything over on you. Let him know you pity him. 

One more thing, I don't believe this marriage advice business about making home look good to a DS, all it does is make the LS prostrate themselves. 

I cannot see how getting someone back under conditions where you have to be a doormat can possibly work. Unless you want them so badly that you want to live is service to them in perpetuity. This man will not respond well to more giving on your part as you can see. He further insults you and thinks he a player because you are being so nice to him. 

No more stray cats for you, only the top guns from now on. 

Now buck up girly, you've got everything you need but you don't know it. When you look in that mirror, see yourself the way we see you, that's the true you, not the distortion you see when you look.


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## turnera

Ooh, I have a great little book you can read in a day that will help you gain some perspective! I just thought of it. Tiny little book but packs a real wallop. You can get it at any library or book store. It's called The Dance of Anger. Don't let the title mislead you. It's about people who help other people, but don't get something back in return. And how to stop it.

Please go read it asap.


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## tobio

I will just go and check out that book turnera and I like your analogy of the cat Catherine!

I had it all planned out. He was coming round earlier after dinner to see the babies. I was going to sit down with them and say that I could not continue this spending time together in limbo. That I wanted a full commitment from him, to me and to the family, and his efforts to show he was a man to be trusted, and until then, I was "out." Then just leave it at at that, no discussions about it, about "feelings" or anything else. Just polite but firm and direct him out of the house to have his time with the babies.

Unfortunately it didn't happen. He went AWOL for a short time, I got rather concerned. Turns out he has had a recurrence of a painful condition he has started to get recently and was doubled up in agony at his place. He insisted on walking over and he looked so ill I took him to hospital where he is now. So it was a no go. I will broach it tomorrow assuming he is feeling better.


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## golfergirl

tobio said:


> I will just go and check out that book turnera and I like your analogy of the cat Catherine!
> 
> I had it all planned out. He was coming round earlier after dinner to see the babies. I was going to sit down with them and say that I could not continue this spending time together in limbo. That I wanted a full commitment from him, to me and to the family, and his efforts to show he was a man to be trusted, and until then, I was "out." Then just leave it at at that, no discussions about it, about "feelings" or anything else. Just polite but firm and direct him out of the house to have his time with the babies.
> 
> Unfortunately it didn't happen. He went AWOL for a short time, I got rather concerned. Turns out he has had a recurrence of a painful condition he has started to get recently and was doubled up in agony at his place. He insisted on walking over and he looked so ill I took him to hospital where he is now. So it was a no go. I will broach it tomorrow assuming he is feeling better.


Should have called him a cab. Or given him bus money. Jk. Sorry you had to put off your talk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

golfergirl said:


> Should have called him a cab. Or given him bus money. Jk. Sorry you had to put off your talk.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: It would have made him see how it feels to be abandoned when you are in pain. I would not visit, not to be mean but to let him feel what you feel. Sometimes people don't get it until they feel it. Don't visit and let him find his way back from the hospital. Tell him you are busy in a kind loving way.


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## Jellybeans

tobio said:


> I was going to sit down with them and say that I could not continue this spending time together in limbo. That I wanted a full commitment from him, to me and to the family, and his efforts to show he was a man to be trusted, and until then, I was "out."


You need to do this soon. The longer this keeps up, the worse.

He does not have your best interest if he doesn't want to be there for you.


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## Therealbrighteyes

I don't know how old you are so I may be dating myself a bit but a long time ago there was a wonderful television show called The Golden Girls. One of the 4 women was Dorothy, a middle aged woman who was now divorced because her husband ran off with a flight attendant named Chrissy. The ex was named Stan. 
Dorothy and Stan still had dealings because they jointly owned property that they could not get rid of, so Stan came sniffing around often. He would sit at the kitchen table and moan about his problems with Chrissy, his financial woes, his health, etc. etc. Dorothy was his comfort zone. When times were tough, he always went to her. If she would protest he would throw the "30 years married" part in her face, forgetting that he ended the marriage by walking out on her. When times were great, he was nowhere to be found. He was off being young and having fun while Dorothy is dealing with job loss, her adult childrens marital issues, etc. When Dorothy was sick or hurting, he was in Hawaii. But when he needed her, she would cancel plans and help him out. 
Why? Because she had a good heart. She was a nurturer and a caretaker as she had always had that role. 
Fast forward about 8 seasons and she finally realizes that this relationship is totally one sided and he fired her from the job of caring about him. She sold the property and in cutting those ties, she freed herself. The next time he came sniffing around, she closed the door in his face. 

Tobio, he fired you from your job. Take the pink slip and feel free.


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## golfergirl

Brennan said:


> I don't know how old you are so I may be dating myself a bit but a long time ago there was a wonderful television show called The Golden Girls. One of the 4 women was Dorothy, a middle aged woman who was now divorced because her husband ran off with a flight attendant named Chrissy. The ex was named Stan.
> Dorothy and Stan still had dealings because they jointly owned property that they could not get rid of, so Stan came sniffing around often. He would sit at the kitchen table and moan about his problems with Chrissy, his financial woes, his health, etc. etc. Dorothy was his comfort zone. When times were tough, he always went to her. If she would protest he would throw the "30 years married" part in her face, forgetting that he ended the marriage by walking out on her. When times were great, he was nowhere to be found. He was off being young and having fun while Dorothy is dealing with job loss, her adult childrens marital issues, etc. When Dorothy was sick or hurting, he was in Hawaii. But when he needed her, she would cancel plans and help him out.
> Why? Because she had a good heart. She was a nurturer and a caretaker as she had always had that role.
> Fast forward about 8 seasons and she finally realizes that this relationship is totally one sided and he fired her from the job of caring about him. She sold the property and in cutting those ties, she freed herself. The next time he came sniffing around, she closed the door in his face.
> 
> Tobio, he fired you from your job. Take the pink slip and feel free.


I was only half kidding. When one 'walks out' they find other methods of transportation when ill such as mom, roommate or floozy. Not your job anymore. If that ill why not call ambulance? He drags himself to your doorstep so you caretake and he can reel you in. Next he'll be recouperating at your place. Sorry not your issue anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

golfergirl said:


> I was only half kidding. When one 'walks out' they find other methods of transportation when ill such as mom, roommate or floozy. Not your job anymore. If that ill why not call ambulance? He drags himself to your doorstep so you caretake and he can reel you in. Next he'll be recouperating at your place. Sorry not your issue anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wasn't kidding at all. She should have told him to buzz off. He bailed on her in her time of need and now that he needs her, he comes rushing over to her?


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## turnera

Brennan said:


> I wasn't kidding at all. She should have told him to buzz off. He bailed on her in her time of need and now that he needs her, he comes rushing over to her?


 Yep. If she were still in Plan A trying to win him back, sure, save him. If not, let him experience life as a studly single man.


----------



## Jellybeans

Plan B is the only way now! Cut him loose. He doesn't care about you if he's not all in.


----------



## tobio

He is still ill. He left hospital last night, came back here, slept on the sofa, then when I got up this morning, he looked awful, said he felt worse, and went upstairs where he has been asleep since.

Before he fell asleep, we talked a little. It was basically a convoluted version of what I WAS going to say. I said he had been taking advantage of my good nature and knew it. That what I want is his full commitment, to me and to the family, and I can't put up with anything inbetween. That commitment means saying he'll do it fully, addressing the family issues and the trust issues.

Now... He thought about the family issues. Said he wasn't sure what to do. Then suggested coming to counselling to see what they could suggest...!

Now. We went to an initial session of counselling about four weeks ago. Have been waiting for a regular session to become available. I briefly mentioned one had, last week, scheduled for next week, but was careful to leave it at that; I felt the effort had to come from him. I didn't want to nag or cajole him into it, but prior to that slot coming up made it clear that counselling would be a condition of his "return" in earnest.

I feel this is a small yet positive step. I'm not going to say he's all in, because that by itself isn't enough. But as part of a bigger picture where he commits to a) taking responsibility and b) we work together to improve the relationship, it is a piece of that, an important one.

Tbh while he's ill I can't really do much with this all so anything will have to wait until he's a bit more with it.


----------



## Jellybeans

If he's still saying he's "not sure" then there is your answer.

I would not get your hopes up. You are making it way too easy for him, Tob.

People who want to be committed to someone ARE committed and don't use the BS line of "Idk what to do/I"m confused/Not sure."


----------



## Catherine602

tobio said:


> He is still ill. He left hospital last night, came back here, slept on the sofa, then when I got up this morning, he looked awful, said he felt worse, and went upstairs where he has been asleep since.
> 
> Before he fell asleep, we talked a little. It was basically a convoluted version of what I WAS going to say. I said he had been taking advantage of my good nature and knew it. That what I want is his full commitment, to me and to the family, and I can't put up with anything inbetween. That commitment means saying he'll do it fully, addressing the family issues and the trust issues.
> 
> Now... He thought about the family issues. Said he wasn't sure what to do. Then suggested coming to counselling to see what they could suggest...!
> 
> Now. We went to an initial session of counselling about four weeks ago. Have been waiting for a regular session to become available. I briefly mentioned one had, last week, scheduled for next week, but was careful to leave it at that; I felt the effort had to come from him. I didn't want to nag or cajole him into it, but prior to that slot coming up made it clear that counselling would be a condition of his "return" in earnest.
> 
> I feel this is a small yet positive step. I'm not going to say he's all in, because that by itself isn't enough. But as part of a bigger picture where he commits to a) taking responsibility and b) we work together to improve the relationship, it is a piece of that, an important one.
> 
> Tbh while he's ill I can't really do much with this all so anything will have to wait until he's a bit more with it.


How can he not be sure when you are taking care of him when he is sick? You are there when he needs you. Is it possible that he can somehow turn this around - if you told him you wanted to be free of all the relationship stuff so he was on his own during his illness, what would he have felt?

If he can not see the irony in you coming to the aid that should give you a hint. He has essentially abandoned you and his family and lobs cruel "jokes" at you to keep you off balance. Yet you, with warmth caring and love, care for him in his time of need. 

Your and his kids need too and he still does not know. He takes and takes and gives less than nothing. Could you hurt him by sending him home to take care of himself? He can hurt you though. If you got sick he would resent having to care for you, i'll bet.


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## turnera

DO NOT LET HIM STAY IN YOUR HOUSE UNTIL HE HAS FULFILLED ALL THE REQUIREMENTS.

And if you're smart, your requirements will take 6 months to complete. 

If you let him come home now, you'll be back here again in 2 years. Count on it.


----------



## tobio

Jellybeans said:


> If he's still saying he's "not sure" then there is your answer.
> 
> I would not get your hopes up. You are making it way too easy for him, Tob.
> 
> *People who want to be committed to someone ARE committed and don't use the BS line of "Idk what to do/I"m confused/Not sure."*


The bold bit- my feelings too. I don't think I realised it before, I was too busy empathising/worrying/trying to know "what it's like for him." Not negative behaviours in and of themselves, but I got so stuck in them that I forgot about ME.

Today was awkward. He felt better. I wanted to talk about things to outline how things were going to be from now- but I didn't want to spoil the day for the little ones so I kept putting it off

Anyhow. What ended up was me and him talking about how we could move forward if he moved back in, what we could change and how. Although it started off quite positive, particularly from him, it spiralled into more of the same on his part.

He had to twist it round to make it about what HE would find acceptable in order to come "home." Whilst I am happy to acknowledge he does have his own issues, I was not having this be about him in order to dampen down his part in this. I called him on it.

I outlined (again) what *I* would need. I was careful to be specific and give examples of what would help me to move forward in trusting him. Nothing outrageous, you understand. Things like him letting me know via a quick call or text each day where he was working (he said he "might not have time/be too busy" or he "might forget.) Also if she DID text, to save said texts (he threw his phone across the room then, said he had saved the last text she sent- there was one the other day.) He said he felt he had been doing these things, said he felt I would carry on with this forever, even though I outlined also that I would only need this for as long as I could see that he WAS the trustworthy person he said he was.

It all crumbled further when he said he would love to come back, but didn't know how he would feel after the older two came back at the start of next week. He said he thought we were already "seeing how it went." I said I didn't want "seeing how it went" or him committing until things got hard, or we fell out- I wanted a full commitment from him to working through the issues with the support of seeing a counsellor. He kept saying he wanted to come back but just didn't know if he would feel differently with the older kids back. I said I am not having this situation and that he needed to live elsewhere.

He wanted to stay tonight as he'd said he would get up with the babies tomorrow morning, and suggested he sleep on the sofa to keep out of the way. No, I said. He asked again. I said no. He said he'd wanted us to take them swimming tomorrow (ie go out together.) I said nothing. He just walked out.

Oh so hard *sigh* It feels like the right thing to do- it doesn't mean it's easy though.


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## justonelife

Tobio - I haven't responded yet but I've been following your situation. I'm sorry to hear that things are not going well and I've been up and down the rollercoaster that you are currently riding. It's a horrible feeling.

I'm curious what *he* needs in order to return home. The only things I've heard you mention are that he doesn't like having your older children around (which you can't do anything about, he needs to take the initiative to get some counseling about this issue if he truly wants to be with you) and he doesn't like your distrust of him (which he originated by kissing another woman and continues to make worse by not showing remorse and change in attitude).

The issue with the older children is one that he needs to either decide if he can move past it or not. This wishy-washy crap needs to stop. There's nothing you can do about the fact that you have older children and frankly his inability to deal with it is immature. I'm not saying his feelings aren't valid or that it isn't difficult to be a step-parent but he needs to decide if he is willing to try or not. If he is, then he needs to take steps to make it work. If not, then he needs to quit causing more grief for the whole family by going back and forth. Right now, it seems like he wants to be with you but will just keep whining and throwing the older children thing in your face to make you feel guilty or try to get you to overlook his flaws because he's doing you a "favor" by helping out with your older children. This is totally childish. Be a man. Make a decision to support your wife and ALL of her children or not.

The trust issue is one I have more experience with since my ex-h did similar things during our marriage and he always downplayed the seriousness of it and how it made me feel. I looked back on your first post about "the kiss" and it was only slightly over a month ago. He's acting like you have been harping on this one small issue for an unreasonable amount of time which is not the case at all. With trust issues, the more times someone lies or isn't trustworthy, the longer it takes to rebuild the trust and he doesn't seem to understand this. If it was just "the kiss" and he had spent the last few weeks showing remorse, being supportive, being totally transparent and giving you no reason to doubt him, you'd probably be feeling a lot better by now. But instead he lies about texts, "forgets" to tell you he worked with her again, buys treats for the other woman, etc. Everytime he did something like that, even small things, it pretty much doubles the amount of time he needed to build your trust again. Pretty soon, it gets to become a huge problem, but this was HIS problem. He created the problem and did not do the things he should have done to fix it right away. He thinks you are being unreasonable but what about him? He was unreasonable when he kissed another woman. He was unreasonable when he accepted her phone number. He was unreasonable when he texted her and bought things for her. Now he needs to accept that if he wants to be with you, he has to rebuild your trust and that means doing trustworthy things like offering to tell you who he is talking to on the phone rather than taunting you about it. 

Stay strong. Keep reminding yourself what YOU need out of a relationship and don't allow him to keep you on the roller coaster. He either needs to stop thinking about his needs and start thinking about yours or move on.


----------



## Jellybeans

Ok so in the end he isn't sure about things (again) and on top of that isn't sure how he'll feel when your kids come back?

Um, your kids come first, Tob.

He is still trying to Jedi Mind-TRick you into thinking it's you that has the problems: it willonly work if YOU do what he wants and it will only work if YOU placate him and live up to his double standards and oh by the way, your kids may be the problem.

This makes me violent:

*He had to twist it round to make it about what HE would find acceptable in order to come "home." *

Cut him loose. He isn't worth the doormat you wipe your feet on when you walk in your house.


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## Catherine602

I am glad that you came to the realization that you were being too empathetic but getting no consideration in return. I included some links on the subject of woman who give too much in a relationship. I think you will recognize him and yourself. Knowledge is power. 

A man who is happy to take and not give back is immature and cannot give in a relationship. That is why he may have never been in a long-term relationship and was living at home with his mom who gave to him with no expectation of return. 

A mature man who find it hard to be in a relationship with a woman who gives too much. These types of men thrive on what they can do for the woman and gets back from her in return. 

Giving too much attracts weak, immature men who take but cannot not give. Relationship with them are ultimately draining and the woman ends up not feeling good about her self because she can not manage to get back what she gives. The relationship is only possible if you continue to cater to him and he has to give nothing.

If you leave him for good, he may get with this girl and if she is like you and will cater too him, she may be able to stay with him for a shot time, but eventually she will burn out and find someone else. 

Maybe after many failed relationships he will finally realize that he is too selfish and may go about improving himself. I really don't think he will change by you showing him more understanding. 

He needs to hit rock bottom, to feel the emptiness and discover that he does not treat woman with respect and that is why he can't keep the woman he is so proud of attracting. 

You must stop giving him any support, no conversation about the relationship, no coming to you when he is sick, tell him you have decided that you will no longer give without first receiving, thats how relationships work. 

No more outings with you and the kids he can see them alone. Have him come pick them up and leave, don't talk about anything but your kids.

If he cant give to you to win you back without you giving too much to him you may have a slim chance. I just don't think he is ready for a relationship and may not be until he gets out in the world and has to fend for himself. 

I can imagine how hard this will be but, I think if you take this difficult journey you will be rewarded with a much happier life and in a relationship with a man who cherishes you and can give to you. 

Do You Give TOO Much? | Soul-Filled Life

Women Who Give Too Much in Relationships and Why It Doesn't Work

Women Who Love Too Much - Google Books


----------



## Jellybeans

Catherine602 said:


> *A man who is happy to take and not give back is immature and cannot give in a relationship*. That is why he may have never been in a long-term relationship and was living at home with his mom who gave to him with no expectation of return.
> 
> If you leave him for good, he may get with this girl and if she is like you and will cater too him, she may be able to stay with him for a shot time, but eventually she will burn out and find someone else.
> 
> Maybe after many failed relationships he will finally realize that he is too selfish and may go about improving himself.


ITA. My bet is his pattern won't change until he realizes nobody is going to put up with this kind of treatment, of him doing whatever the flip he wants and not ever returning or reciprocating the same amount of respect/love his partner does. 

he won't change overnight so my bet is the new chick will find out the same thing in time.

It's ALL about him.


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## Catherine602

BTW the issue is NOT the older children is is the psychological problem that he has. Any man who would even hint that the existence of two children are a problem when he knew you had them is a self-centered immature, mean man. 

Where are they going to go? they are children. He is in essence asking you to somehow get rid of your children and he will come back. Do you really want such a child-man. 

It is about him, everything he does is for himself, he never considered how these children would feel with a man hostile to their existence in their own house. Yes it is their house they were there before he got there. They should decide if the want him in their house. Do you see that. 

Right now I think you are in a sort of fog. You are not thinking clearly because you love a selfish man and in so doing you empathize with him. 

So much so that you never ask a critical question - how, as a man, he can pit himself against two children. He does not understand a mothers love. You give him empathy to him you can at lest expect him to be compassionate to your children. 

He wants all of your mommy attention and resents you giving any to your two kids. That's seems to be his problem. Maybe he never got enough love growing up. If that is the case then he is a very troubled man.


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## tobio

Thanks for the links C. Just been looking through them.

He texted a little while ago. Asked if I could put the baby in the creche at the gym whilst I went to the gym tomorrow so he could go there to take the toddler swimming at the same time. I initially said ok thinking we wouldn't need to spend time together, but realised we'd have to drive there and back together. So texted back saying to scrap it and for him to just pick the babies up in the morning. Of course, he's just replied asking why scrap it? Not sure what to say, if anything- I don't want to be sniping or angry or rude, just straightforward and to the point.

I wish I intuitively knew the answers to stuff like this.


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## Jellybeans

I think your intuition already knows the answer...

and I agree with Cat again... it's not like your children materialized out of thin air one night. He knew you had them. It's not like this is new information. Him using them as an excuse is not only selfish... it's sick.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> Thanks for the links C. Just been looking through them.
> 
> He texted a little while ago. Asked if I could put the baby in the creche at the gym whilst I went to the gym tomorrow so he could go there to take the toddler swimming at the same time. I initially said ok thinking we wouldn't need to spend time together, but realised we'd have to drive there and back together. So texted back saying to scrap it and for him to just pick the babies up in the morning. Of course, he's just replied asking why scrap it? Not sure what to say, if anything- I don't want to be sniping or angry or rude, just straightforward and to the point.
> 
> I wish I intuitively knew the answers to stuff like this.


Tell him you want to spend time at the gym without the children because you need the time alone. In that way, You're asking him to step up and do something for you. If he responds badly. Tell him that you just took care of him when he was sick and he cannot give this one thing to you now. 

Ask him why does he have a problem giving when you do so much for him? Ask him if he thinks of himself as a selfish man, tell him he better put that as his identity because that what he is. 

Then Tobio, be as selfish as he is, give him a little bit less than he gives you. Don't make anything convenient don't be there for him. See if he responds by perusing you or if he gets angry like a child. 

Let's see if he goes out of his way to bring you a box of special chocolates or any small gift of thanks for taking care of him when he was sick. 

If he has not thanked you profusely for you attention to him, then you have your answer. You took care of him and he can not even reassure you about that girl.


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## turnera

tobio said:


> He had to twist it round to make it about what HE would find acceptable in order to come "home."


Let me pick my jaw back up off the floor.

What HE wants? 

Hon, he is NOT READY.

When he comes to you and says "I screwed up. What can I do to make it up to you?" - THEN you can talk about him coming home. 

Until then you are moving on with your life - alone.


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## tobio

I just said, "just not good." I didn't want to be elaborate or wordy but wanted to just respond straightforwardly. I did already mention going to the gym but that shouldn't be a problem as he will be having the little ones tomorrow anyway.

I know what he will do. He will pursue. Enough for company but not enough to talk about reconciling.


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## turnera

tobio said:


> Thanks for the links C. Just been looking through them.
> 
> He texted a little while ago. Asked if I could put the baby in the creche at the gym whilst I went to the gym tomorrow so he could go there to take the toddler swimming at the same time. I initially said ok thinking we wouldn't need to spend time together, but realised we'd have to drive there and back together. So texted back saying to scrap it and for him to just pick the babies up in the morning. Of course, he's just replied asking why scrap it? Not sure what to say, if anything- I don't want to be sniping or angry or rude, just straightforward and to the point.
> 
> I wish I intuitively knew the answers to stuff like this.


 tobio, I'm sorry but you need to grow a spine. He is using you. He is completely selfish and he just rolled all over your heart again, and he EXPECTS you to play kissy face with him?

When are you going to see him for the user he is?

Show him that you deserve better than this.


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## turnera

tobio said:


> I know what he will do. He will pursue. Enough for company but not enough to talk about reconciling.


What does this tell you? 

That he is USING you so he doesn't have to be alone, but he couldn't care less about whether you are happy.

That is what Users do. They USE. For THEMSELVES.

You don't owe him anything, ok? He has harmed you beyond belief - HE owes YOU.

Don't do one thing for him any more. 

If nothing else, look at it like you are HELPING him learn how to be a decent human being, by giving him the consequence of not spending time with him.

If you end up spending time with him, I'm going to be mad at you!


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## tobio

He texted again asking why?

I replied:

The only time I want contact apart from you picking up and dropping off the boys is if you are prepared to put 100% into our relationship. Until then there is no purpose for talk.

I fully expect to receive no reply to that!


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## turnera

Good for you. And I'm sorry it turned out this way.


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## tobio

Tbh I think doing that not only outlines my requirements, but will do wonders for my state of mind. At least this way I DO know if he's in or out.

When I said yesterday about being in or out, he said I think things are so simple. Erm yes- either you're in this relationship or you're out, it's one or the other...

Now we had arranged for his mum to babysit tonight. I know she still will so might take the opportunity to meet some friends, get out a bit. Also planning on getting to the gym, and also having a bit of chilling out, "me" time.


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## golfergirl

tobio said:


> Tbh I think doing that not only outlines my requirements, but will do wonders for my state of mind. At least this way I DO know if he's in or out.
> 
> When I said yesterday about being in or out, he said I think things are so simple. Erm yes- either you're in this relationship or you're out, it's one or the other...
> 
> Now we had arranged for his mum to babysit tonight. I know she still will so might take the opportunity to meet some friends, get out a bit. Also planning on getting to the gym, and also having a bit of chilling out, "me" time.


Meeting friends... You alone or with him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tobio

Just me. Have had two invites out actually so spoilt for choice!


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## Affaircare

tobio said:


> He texted again asking why?
> 
> I replied:
> 
> *The only time I want contact apart from you picking up and dropping off the boys is if you are prepared to put 100% into our relationship. Until then there is no purpose for talk.*
> 
> I fully expect to receive no reply to that!


EXCELLENT JOB. It was clear, concise and to the point. You're not in this for a "boyfriend"--he MARRIED you and is either going to honor his promise to you to forsake all others, ore he's not and you're not taking less than his promise! 

I agree with you that saying it right out but succinctly like that is going to help your frame of mind, and it will make it easy for him and for you: "Are you prepared to put 100% into our MARRIAGE? No? Then no goodies." LOL  And dear tobio--call it a marriage. You two are not dating, it's not just a "relationship." He stood before God, friends and family and made a covenant with you. That is much more than a "relationship." So call it what it is: a MARRIAGE. 

All-in-all you're doing well. He's trying to get the benefits of YOU--being with you, spending time, having you care for him while he's sick etc.--without equally having the responsibilities of YOU--namely what he owes to you and all four of the children. So keep it up; you are finding the right track; and now have the courage to stay on that track and allow him to experience the consequences of his choice to leave (namely that when he's sick, no one is there...etc.). That is not you being mean--that is you getting out of his way and allowing him to LEARN. 

Have a good weekend working on you.


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## tobio

Hi all, 
This is Tobio`s other half, first of all I have read most of the posts posted over the past month or so and some of you have quite valid points and some of you couldnt be further away from the truth. You sit behind your computer screens typing away, judging, calling and blasting someone you dont even know, know nothing about and have never even met. To be honest i dont know how people have the audacity to slate somebody so badly based on what you`ve been told by someone else (you don`t even know) :scratchhead: i certainly wouldnt be as judgemental on somebody i knew nothing about or their background. As for calling me a bad father i`d like you to say that to my face  my boys mean the world to me and i would never abandon them, they mean more to me than life itself. I spend all of my spare time with them when im not at work, and I am not gallivanting around the shop like some dumb teenager you seem to think i am. I would like to continue to tell you more of my personal life but i dont feel comfortable divulging such information with people i dont know. By the way, no we are not married*END*


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## Wrench

So start your own account and tell your side, Tobio obviously kept coming here for the advice. Maybe some folks on here go overboard but it's usually to get through to the person asking questions.


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## golfergirl

You are common-law and have 2 children together. You don't get much more 'married' than that. If your boys mean the world to you - respect their family unit including their older half-siblings. Get help to learn how to embrace the whole family - that's only option because older two aren't going anywhere. If it comes down to them or you I have feeling you'll be the one gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

tobio said:


> Hi all,
> This is Tobio`s other half, first of all I have read most of the posts posted over the past month or so and some of you have quite valid points and some of you couldnt be further away from the truth. You sit behind your computer screens typing away, judging, calling and blasting someone you dont even know, know nothing about and have never even met. To be honest i dont know how people have the audacity to slate somebody so badly based on what you`ve been told by someone else (you don`t even know) :scratchhead: i certainly wouldnt be as judgemental on somebody i knew nothing about or their background. As for calling me a bad father i`d like you to say that to my face  my boys mean the world to me and i would never abandon them, they mean more to me than life itself. I spend all of my spare time with them when im not at work, and I am not gallivanting around the shop like some dumb teenager you seem to think i am. I would like to continue to tell you more of my personal life but i dont feel comfortable divulging such information with people i dont know. By the way, no we are not married*END*


The real question is do you know? & Why do you not value your girlfriend's POV?

We're all judgmental. I'd like to blame it on biology.


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## pidge70

He won't be back to respond, he said his piece.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

pidge70 said:


> He won't be back to respond, he said his piece.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah and his long-term, mother of his children is still hoping for a better relationship so what'd it get him?

What we think/feel about his life/her life mean nothing but there is a more important part that has nothing to do with saying your peace.


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## pidge70

I seriously doubt he cares. I think it is obvious from Tobio's posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

tobio said:


> Hi all,
> This is Tobio`s other half, first of all I have read most of the posts posted over the past month or so and some of you have quite valid points and some of you couldnt be further away from the truth.
> 
> You sit behind your computer screens typing away, judging, calling and blasting someone you dont even know, know nothing about and have never even met.
> 
> I don't know but and can judge his actions.
> 
> You just dont get it do you. How many times do you need to read it again - :banghead: ACTION SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS :banghead: and by your actions, you are exactly what you appear to be.
> 
> You don't like what read because you get it raw view of exactly what you actions say about you. No flattery or ego stroking. No one here has heard your prevarication's, rationalization and whining about how hard done by you are because you have the responsibility that all adults shoulder.
> 
> You keep Tobio dancing on a string because you know she is vulnerable and you manipulates that like a common bully. Thankfully no one here has had the misfortune to get anywhere near you.
> 
> Your actions say that you are a cruel thoughtless, self-serving, angry sort of man.
> 
> 
> To be honest i dont know how people have the audacity to slate somebody so badly based on what you`ve been told by someone else (you don`t even know) :scratchhead: i certainly wouldnt be as judgemental on somebody i knew nothing about or their background.
> 
> Your background - well poor you. Is that what you pull out every time someone holds you accountable for your cations? Is that what you tell yourself to justify the cruelty of holding affection and love to vulnerable people like Tobio?
> 
> You want a pass to make people miserable because you had it rough? How many times do you think get to pull out that card? Man the eeefff up - stop wallowing in self pity about your bad childhood and take some responsibility and get some help. Boys make excuses; men act.
> 
> As for calling me a bad father i`d like you to say that to my face  my boys mean the world to me and i would never abandon them, they mean more to me than life itself. I spend all of my spare time with them when im not at work, and I am not gallivanting around the shop like some dumb teenager you seem to think i am. I would like to continue to tell you more of my personal life but i dont feel comfortable divulging such information with people i dont know.
> 
> What do you want props for doing what a man should do for children he brought into the world? OK, I'll give you a pat on the head, whoopie for you for spending time with your kids. :smthumbup: Feel better, till tomorrow.
> 
> Now does that include the times you were too busy thinking about how inconvenient they are when you wanted to sleep in after a night of drinking?
> 
> I am sorry to tell you this - your idea of yourself as a good father is at best delusional at worse laughable. Again I go by your actions not your bad childhood pity party and your whining about how hard your life is.
> 
> You abandoned your family you left your house, you refuse to give emotinal support or pysical presence and love to their mother. Moreoverou are blackmailing a vulnerable mother to get rid of her helpless children if she wants you back.
> 
> Did you tell your mother about the blackmail attempt? How about announcing it to your work mates - think they will slap you on the back for a slick stud. How about kissy girl who strokes your ego? I'll bet you will be elevated to super star player status, any hot woman will find you irresistible.
> 
> What universe do you live in that you think that all of these actions makes you a good father, man or even human being??? I'd want to slither under a rock if I did that.
> 
> By the way, no we are not married
> 
> What a peice of work you are. What is this supose to mean - your too good to be called her husband? You don't diserver the title so you can keep your unmarried status.
> 
> *END*


----------



## Catherine602

pidge70 said:


> He won't be back to respond, he said his piece.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you kidding? He'll be back, he can't resist any attention even negative. We are talking about one of the most important people in his universe ---- HIM.


----------



## Catherine602

I am so concerned that Tobio is catching hell from this man. I hate to think of what he is saying to her. He seems to have states of being - angry and indifference. Neither is good for her.


----------



## turnera

tobio said:


> my boys mean the world to me and i would never abandon them


Sorry, mrTobio, but YOU ALREADY ABANDONED YOUR SONS by choosing what you did. 

Don't buy it.


----------



## Conrad

Tobio's "other half",

If you peruse this thread, you'll find that I actually tried to help her forgive you when you confessed.

I'm a man who understands what it's like to raise and pay for another man's children. It's really difficult to feel like you belong sometimes. You work your backside off and often are treated with something between disdain and contempt.

Yet, when I heard your rationalizations and blame-shifting and continued contact with this young hottie at work? I went silent.

When I heard you came straight from "mum's house" and took up with Tobio - without ever being on your own? I realized you're probably in over your head.

You don't have what it takes to be the man in her life. So, you will leave her and her gifts for another man to love. And, trust me, it will happen.

I've often called my wife's ex my "benefactor". You are now in the position of losing everything important to you - simply giving it away to some alpha down the road.

This is a decision you will regret for the rest of your life. All for a cheap piece of ass at work.

Just pitiful.

Take her some more candy.





tobio said:


> Hi all,
> This is Tobio`s other half, first of all I have read most of the posts posted over the past month or so and some of you have quite valid points and some of you couldnt be further away from the truth. You sit behind your computer screens typing away, judging, calling and blasting someone you dont even know, know nothing about and have never even met. To be honest i dont know how people have the audacity to slate somebody so badly based on what you`ve been told by someone else (you don`t even know) :scratchhead: i certainly wouldnt be as judgemental on somebody i knew nothing about or their background. As for calling me a bad father i`d like you to say that to my face  my boys mean the world to me and i would never abandon them, they mean more to me than life itself. I spend all of my spare time with them when im not at work, and I am not gallivanting around the shop like some dumb teenager you seem to think i am. I would like to continue to tell you more of my personal life but i dont feel comfortable divulging such information with people i dont know. By the way, no we are not married*END*


----------



## Catherine602

Conrad said:


> Tobio's "other half",
> 
> If you peruse this thread, you'll find that I actually tried to help her forgive you when you confessed.
> 
> I'm a man who understands what it's like to raise and pay for another man's children. It's really difficult to feel like you belong sometimes. You work your backside off and often are treated with something between disdain and contempt.
> 
> Yet, when I heard your rationalizations and blame-shifting and continued contact with this young hottie at work? I went silent.
> 
> When I heard you came straight from "mum's house" and took up with Tobio - without ever being on your own? I realized you're probably in over your head.
> 
> You don't have what it takes to be the man in her life. So, you will leave her and her gifts for another man to love. And, trust me, it will happen.
> 
> I've often called my wife's ex my "benefactor". You are now in the position of losing everything important to you - simply giving it away to some alpha down the road.
> 
> This is a decision you will regret for the rest of your life. All for a cheap piece of ass at work.
> 
> Just pitiful.
> 
> Take her some more candy.


Conrad I am so glad you posted and wish you would even while some of us were heaping distain on mr t. It helps to have a tempering voice to balance the discussion. You have had the experience of step parenting so your perspective as a man is valuable. 

Hope you continue to post. I doubt if mr or mrs tobio will be back. She is probably dealing with some heavy s**t from him. He was quite angry and even hinted that she was not telling the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

While it is true there are two sides to every story, it doesn't necessarily mean that either side will portray true accuracy of the situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BIP

pidge70 said:


> While it is true there are two sides to every story, it doesn't necessarily mean that either side will portray true accuracy of the situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We say in our family: 2 sides to every story, and the truth lies in between. Doesn't mean either person is intentionally lying (although we see it that way when we get defensive), we just all have a way of justifying our own behavior and opinions.

That said, my stories are always accurate, and I am always right


----------



## Conrad

Catherine602 said:


> Conrad I am so glad you posted and wish you would even while some of us were heaping distain on mr t. It helps to have a tempering voice to balance the discussion. You have had the experience of step parenting so your perspective as a man is valuable.
> 
> Hope you continue to post. I doubt if mr or mrs tobio will be back. She is probably dealing with some heavy s**t from him. He was quite angry and even hinted that she was not telling the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Catherine,

Not to hijack, but I looked at stepchildren as a "2nd chance".

But realize - in those words - it was about me.

Parenting cannot be about "you" at all.

It's about them.

And, I'm sorry to say, but any "man" who would give his lady a hard time about the children from a previous relationship?

That's no "man" at all.


----------



## golfergirl

Conrad said:


> Catherine,
> 
> Not to hijack, but I looked at stepchildren as a "2nd chance".
> 
> But realize - in those words - it was about me.
> 
> Parenting cannot be about "you" at all.
> 
> It's about them.
> 
> And, I'm sorry to say, but any "man" who would give his lady a hard time about the children from a previous relationship?
> 
> That's no "man" at all.


My H struggles with my kids from previous marriage. He feels left out and triggers painful memories from childhood. He once started with how it would be different without them. Never again. No one wishes my children not here. He has committed to in depth therapy to deal with his issues and how they affect us today. He gets it's his problem. He's a big man for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

golfergirl said:


> My H struggles with my kids from previous marriage. He feels left out and triggers painful memories from childhood. He once started with how it would be different without them. Never again. No one wishes my children not here. He has committed to in depth therapy to deal with his issues and how they affect us today. He gets it's his problem. He's a big man for that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't think it would be as difficult as it was.

But, it's clearly true that humans are "wired" to give our blood relatives all sorts of slack that others simply do not get.

Once you catch on, it's rewarding - because you realize you are doing something good for everyone - effectively.

A round of applause for your man golfergirl.

Stay the course.


----------



## turnera

I wish wish wish there was some universal law that forces people marrying other people with children, that they had to take an intensive class explaining all the psychology behind what's about to happen to them, and how to deal with it so as not to damage the kids for life. I don't care what happens to the adults - they CHOSE this marriage. The kids had no voice.


----------



## Jellybeans

Notice Tob's SO didn't make any mention of him cheating on her. Hmm..


----------



## WhereAmI

I hope Tobio's H's post, which was probably meant to manipulate her, doesn't scare her off. Claiming that he doesn't feel comfortable sharing information with people he doesn't know is an obvious jab at Tobio. 

Mr. Tobio, she's not putting herself or anyone around her in danger. She's an intelligent woman who has asked for guidance to deal with a man who is treating her poorly. I know this scares you, but she has every right to use whatever tools she wishes to help guide her in the right direction. Perhaps you should look into getting some help of your own.


----------



## Catherine602

No one has signed in sice the last post. He may be lurking with out signing in. I feel so bad and worried about her. I hope she will come back and let us know she is OK. 

I would imagine that his bad behavior towards his family is counter to the "good man" persona he wants to project. 

It seems very important for him to maintain the persona more important than acknowledging that his actions injure others. He can't muster any sympathy or compassion for Tobio or the children because his focus is how well he hides his true self. 

Tobio's natural reaction and persistence that he is not who he says he is, doomed the relationship. He can't be with people who have blown his cover so, he runs. Tobio's reaction reminds him of who he really and he probably knows it's not attractive that's why he keeps it hidden. 

Maybe that's what he meant in the conversation about him being a rogue and getting himself out of trouble by manipulating them. He failed to manipulate Tobio into not seeing what she is seeing and so he got angry with her and blamed her. 

Here too, when he read the reaction's to Tobio's plight, he reacts with anger; how dare we take his actions at face value when he has not had time to run his rough game on us. 

He hinted that Tabio was not telling the true story.

I wonder how many ways you can say "the father of my infant and toddler left me after his affair because I was upset about it and asked him to reassure me that he knew it was wrong and would not do it again, and is trying to blackmail me into getting rid of my two older kids as a condition of his coming back, because he does not like them"


----------



## Conrad

I wonder how many ways you can say "the father of my infant and toddler left me after his affair because I was upset about it and asked him to reassure me that he knew it was wrong and would not do it again, and is trying to blackmail me into getting rid of my two older kids as a condition of his coming back, because he does not like them" 

Chilling, isn't it?

The level of self-absorption is off the charts


----------



## Mom6547

turnera said:


> tobio, I'm sorry but you need to grow a spine. He is using you. He is completely selfish and he just rolled all over your heart again, and he EXPECTS you to play kissy face with him?
> 
> When are you going to see him for the user he is?
> 
> Show him that you deserve better than this.


I am going to see turnera and raise her. You should seriously consider getting some personal counseling around why you are trying so hard to stick with this useless weasle of a douchenbagen. If you don't, I am concerned that you are just going to get hoodwinked again by the next turd ball. 

Seriously I am using those names on purpose. That you can't see that he is being an immature, useless sack of pathetic meal is quite alarming. Do you have self esteem issues in your past that need to be shaken loose? 

I am not trying to be mean. But this is really, really alarming.


----------



## Mom6547

tobio said:


> Hi all,
> This is Tobio`s other half, first of all I have read most of the posts posted over the past month or so and some of you have quite valid points and some of you couldnt be further away from the truth. You sit behind your computer screens typing away, judging, calling and blasting someone you dont even know, know nothing about and have never even met. To be honest i dont know how people have the audacity to slate somebody so badly based on what you`ve been told by someone else (you don`t even know) :scratchhead: i certainly wouldnt be as judgemental on somebody i knew nothing about or their background. As for calling me a bad father i`d like you to say that to my face  my boys mean the world to me and i would never abandon them, they mean more to me than life itself. I spend all of my spare time with them when im not at work, and I am not gallivanting around the shop like some dumb teenager you seem to think i am. I would like to continue to tell you more of my personal life but i dont feel comfortable divulging such information with people i dont know. By the way, no we are not married*END*


Don't like to read what real people think of your actions? Become a mature, moral, decent human being and you won't have to.


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> I wonder how many ways you can say "the father of my infant and toddler left me after his affair because I was upset about it and asked him to reassure me that he knew it was wrong and would not do it again, and is trying to blackmail me into getting rid of my two older kids as a condition of his coming back, because he does not like them"
> 
> Chilling, isn't it?
> 
> The level of self-absorption is off the charts


Woa. Conrad that was succinct. And yes, chilling.


----------



## turnera

Mom6547 said:


> douchenbagen


Hee.


----------



## Catherine602

Tobio thinking of you and hope all is well.


----------



## Conrad

Catherine602 said:


> Tobio thinking of you and hope all is well.


I fear she has taken him back with the promise not to log on or read this forum anymore.


----------



## turnera

yep.

And she'll be back in a couple more years when she hits her wall again.


----------



## Catherine602

Conrad said:


> I fear she has taken him back with the promise not to log on or read this forum anymore.


Someone has been logging in, probably her non-husband, lucking to see if she has posted. I am certain he also wants to see if anyone is talking about his favorate subject, him.

I read this on NPD http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...rsonalities-the-truly-empathically-challenged 

Tabio if you come back here please read the link I think it describes your non-husband. NPD is incurable, they don't change. If indeed he fit this pathology, and you have, unfortunately, reconciled with him, expect exactly what you had before may be worse. He will be extremely charming to get what he wants, that's what draws people in. . 

I feel bad for her two older children. I don't think I have ever heard an adult male, even a childish one, try to blackmail a woman to get rid of her kids. To invade their home and , make them feel unwelcome. The utter wrongness of it would stop a normal moral compassionate person from letting the thought spill out of their mouths. .


----------



## Conrad

turnera said:


> yep.
> 
> And she'll be back in a couple more years when she hits her wall again.


We only see the light when we're ready.

Sometimes, that's the most difficult thing to accept.


----------



## ClipClop

Are you ppl saying it is impossible for someone to not know they hadn't bonded to step kids until they had their own?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## justonelife

Clipclop - I don't think anyone said anything like that. I'm curious what gave you that idea?


----------



## COGypsy

ClipClop said:


> Are you ppl saying it is impossible for someone to not know they hadn't bonded to step kids until they had their own?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There's a huge difference between "not bonding" and flat out resenting. If you go through the whole story, Tobio basically explains that her boyfriend told her that he resents the fact that she had children before she met him and ruined any "couple time" they could have had before they had their own two kids that they have now. He also resents the time that taking care of those children takes away from her taking care of him and the kids they have together. And if I'm remembering correctly, he was saying that he wasn't sure he could really come back and/or fully commit to their relationship as long as those kids were in the picture because of those resentments.

Now mind you, those children didn't spring up out of nowhere--Tobio and her boyfriend have been together at least long enough to have a couple of kids of their own. So if stepkids were a deal breaker...there's been a lot of time to realize and address that. So it's really not a question of "bonding" or what your kids make you realize...it's a lot deeper than that.


----------



## ClipClop

Did you ever feel something, esp something negative, and be unable to really pinpoint the problem? Sometimes that results in throwing out a lot of ideas, many of which aren't true and sound like rubbish to other ppl. Ppl who are not self-aware do that. My husband does this but less and less as he grows as an individual. This is a growth opportunity for the guy. I think it is ashame that nobody is trying to help him grow. His friends are not friends of the relnship and I'm guessing they wouldn't be to any he had. And here he's getting strung up by his gonads. I hope they work it out in therapy where there isn't such active hostility. You may not like his feelings, but they're real. His actions are hurtful, like someone who is lost and somewhat self-destructive. But he was trying to stay in the relnship. It just wasn't in a way everyone here liked.

Someone said yer either in or out, no in-between. I beg to differ. I've been on the fence in my marriage wondering if I could accept some things. And I bet if you're honest you have a time of doubt in your past, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Exactly COGypsy! This "man" acts like these kids suddenly crawled out of the basement and yelled "surprise" when in reality he knew about them all along, coupled with her, had not one but two children with her and only and I mean ONLY after his affair with some skank was discovered did he site Tobio having children prior to her as the reason he can't "deal" with being with her.
I do love how he dared us to say that he is a crappy father to his face. I will be happy to. Any chance you are going to be in London say, June 30th through the 3rd? You live in England afterall, what's a few hours drive to hear the truth? I will be the one wearing the large taupe colored hat with a giant silk apricot peony pinned on it, standing in front of Buckingham Palace taking pictures and enjoying the scene. Reveling in the recent marriage of a man who understood honor. Care to join me?


----------



## ClipClop

How many of you carried a marriage problem with you for years without saying anything? Judging from some ppl on this site, plenty. So no the kids didn't just crop up but maybe the problem didn't either.

He also didn't have an affair. He tried to admit it and face it but was shamed instead of helped and applauded. If he wanted an affair it was there for the taking. He tried a different route when he realized it was going too far. He was caught up in the good feelings and reluctant bit trying to let go. You think the stuff tobio was told to do dint drive him further from the relnship? A lot of guys would have gone full blown affair. Ge didn't and gets no credit.

He has probs but is no monster.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ClipClop

Couple other thoughts. Everyone says they want their h/w to go to them before they cheat but this sit. Tells you it is a dangerous proposition cause if you don't do everything right and on the timeline set forth by the good ppl here, you obviously don't want to fix things and are branded for life. Maybe this guy needed more time to wise up than was deemed acceptable.

His friends aren't friends of the relnship but I don't really think this set of responses has been either.

Not everything fits into a formula, esp. Not for ppl who haven't subscribed to the program. Shoving it down their throats results in the reaction you saw here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ClipClop said:


> Did you ever feel something, esp something negative, and be unable to really pinpoint the problem? Sometimes that results in throwing out a lot of ideas, many of which aren't true and sound like rubbish to other ppl. Ppl who are not self-aware do that. My husband does this but less and less as he grows as an individual. This is a growth opportunity for the guy. I think it is ashame that nobody is trying to help him grow. His friends are not friends of the relnship and I'm guessing they wouldn't be to any he had. And here he's getting strung up by his gonads. I hope they work it out in therapy where there isn't such active hostility. You may not like his feelings, but they're real. His actions are hurtful, like someone who is lost and somewhat self-destructive. But he was trying to stay in the relnship. It just wasn't in a way everyone here liked.
> 
> Someone said yer either in or out, no in-between. I beg to differ. I've been on the fence in my marriage wondering if I could accept some things. And I bet if you're honest you have a time of doubt in your past, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Would you give your kids away just to keep your husband?

That's what tobio's husband told her to do.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

turnera said:


> would you give your kids away just to keep your husband?
> 
> That's what tobio's husband told her to do.


bingo!!!!


----------



## Conrad

ClipClop said:


> How many of you carried a marriage problem with you for years without saying anything? Judging from some ppl on this site, plenty. So no the kids didn't just crop up but maybe the problem didn't either.
> 
> He also didn't have an affair. He tried to admit it and face it but was shamed instead of helped and applauded. If he wanted an affair it was there for the taking. He tried a different route when he realized it was going too far. He was caught up in the good feelings and reluctant bit trying to let go. You think the stuff tobio was told to do dint drive him further from the relnship? A lot of guys would have gone full blown affair. Ge didn't and gets no credit.
> 
> He has probs but is no monster.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He was applauded.

But, then he refused to own his own shix.


----------



## Jpeace

Brennan said:


> He isn't leaving because of your pain, my dear. He is leaving because he is a coward and does not want to face what he has done. He isn't poison to you, you are poison to him. He wants you to rug sweep and never bring this up again and since you cannot and rightfully so, he has decided to move on all under the guise that he is somehow some noble person caring about your pain. He isn't. His ego feeding is the most important thing to him. Right now, his ego isn't being fed by you. He has to see your pain and suffering and that makes him feel bad. Not for you, for him. His ego took a hit when all of a sudden his wife views him differently and not some Knight in shining armour. He needs that again. Sticking around only makes him realize how badly he let all of you down. He leaves and your pain suddenly goes away. It doesn't, it only makes him not have to see what he has done. Walking away is easy, sticking around to make things right is hard, too hard for him. His talking about your other children is very telling. I doubt they suddenly jumped out of a closet and yelled surprise after he had already committed to you. He knew you were a package deal and that was okay with him back then. Now all of a sudden you having children from another man is a dealbreaker? Of course it is. Now he can toss the blame on you and say that what you did in your past makes him unable to continue to be with you. Since you had children prior to meeting him, since you cannot "get over" what he has done and since he cannot stand to see you in pain, he needs to leave. Nothing is his fault, it's blameshifting 101.
> Let me be blunt, he doesn't give a rat's a$$ if you or your children are in pain, he only cares if he is. He is no longer viewed on a pedestal and he cannot stand it. Walking away is the easiest way to have to never experience that again. Let him, not for his sake, for yours.
> And yes, I hope he reads this.


I have a question, because I had said very similar words to my GF recently. I keep getting VERY angry at her because she keeps spending her money at Las Vegas night clubs to the point our power goes out etc. I keep getting so upset that she can't change her habits that are ruining her life and have her in dozens of thousands of dollars in debt. That is what I tell myself and her the anger is about and finally, I blew up over and over (nothing physical and really only truthful, but hurtful and tactlessly worded things like every time her friends let her get a $100 bill in their name their starving her child, It is partly true but HORRIBLE to say.) So, I finally said I am just leaving because I can't seem to control my reaction to the way you handle things, your life and your friends. I love her, or else I wouldn't even care, but am I just copping out? Am I being a coward? I feel I have tried everything but I wont watch her ruin her life and I seem powerless to stop it.

;/ I don't know if I am a rageaholic, impatient,emotionaly abusive or if she is immature or whatever, or if it is both? Either way I decided and told her my ONLY goal is to make her happy, whatever that is. Me being in her life is currently making her unhappy (even though for the first time EVER in her life she has a saving account and I don't care one like about hanging out and drinking while I watch HER kids, just dont spend a ****ing HUNDRED at a bar, spend FIVE on a six pack and a friends.)

Sincerely, 
-A possible idiot.


----------



## ClipClop

He refused to own it on someone else's timeline. 

Don't you think there is any possibility that the advice given here may have done harm to them? Or are you all so sure of yourselves that you can judge from such a distance. 

The guy needs counselling to do the right thing, not abuse from people who don't know him. He needs help to grow up to be a man. Anyone the least bit stubborn would reject the whole thing presented as it had been.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

ClipClop said:


> He refused to own it on someone else's timeline.
> 
> Don't you think there is any possibility that the advice given here may have done harm to them? Or are you all so sure of yourselves that you can judge from such a distance.
> 
> The guy needs counselling to do the right thing, not abuse from people who don't know him. He needs help to grow up to be a man. Anyone the least bit stubborn would reject the whole thing presented as it had been.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think the guy was abused at all. OP sticking up for herself and kids doesn't abuse him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

*** Thread Jack coming through****

JP
I am so sorry this is happening. It is difficult to watch someone you love destroy themselves and those who depend on them. 

As hard as it is, you do have to leave when you have tried every thing you can to help them. Your presence may make it possible for them to continue the addiction because you give them support as any normal person should. Leaving may be the impetus to change. 

I think you stood by her as long as you could and the anger is normal. Who would b=not be when you watch a person destroy themselves and there is nothing you can do to get through to them. 

I wish you peace.


----------



## Mom6547

ClipClop said:


> He refused to own it on someone else's timeline.
> 
> Don't you think there is any possibility that the advice given here may have done harm to them? Or are you all so sure of yourselves that you can judge from such a distance.
> 
> The guy needs counselling to do the right thing, not abuse from people who don't know him. He needs help to grow up to be a man. Anyone the least bit stubborn would reject the whole thing presented as it had been.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He may need that. But she sure as hell does not need him.


----------



## ClipClop

I wasn't suggesting she abused him. I'm suggesting this series of posts has been abusive toward him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I'm not going to continue to argue the point that the behaviour demanded here IMMEDIATELY may have caused harm that could have been avoided with real counseling instead of this place. It certainly hasn't been even handed and encouraging for him, and you knew he was reading. My opinion. That's it on the subject from me. Carry on.


----------



## Mom6547

ClipClop said:


> I wasn't suggesting she abused him. I'm suggesting this series of posts has been abusive toward him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the internet. This is a place where people speak their minds. Abuse is an interpersonal thing.


----------



## turnera

Yep. Were we hard on him? Yes. Was he hard on his WIFE? Yes. Those are called consequences.

But at least we were hard on him so that she could get the help she needs to sort this out logically.

JPeace, please set up your own thread so people can find you and offer advice. fwiw, you needed to leave her so that she can suffer her own consequences (no electricity, etc.) on her OWN, and grow up.


----------



## Catherine602

Interestin, CC joined 4/28/11, all the post are directed towards woman having relationship problems. Tobio has signed in every day with out posting when she usually post daily.

The CC post are biased towards the wondering male and very critical of a woman who is hurt. . Sounds more male with a grip against women who have the nerve to make demands on men who stray.

I wonder if this is who I think he is. All I can say is WOW. I feel so desperately sorry for Tobio, I can't imagine what she is going through. If this is who I think it is, 

No more Tobio just CC explaining the non-husbands position. 

You get to see what is going on in his head.


----------



## turnera

I, too, was wondering if CC was not MrTobio.


----------



## ClipClop

That's right. Discredit the poster when you disagree with the message. It only supports my contention that this place can be dangerous for a marriage in trouble. A therapist with an alternate view wouldn't be accused of such a thing but it is easy to do to an anon stranger, just like it was easy to trash this guy. Isn't your relationship so no skin off your nose.

Read my other posts before you accuse me of being anti-woman. 

Maybe you should get off your all knowing all seeing high horse and experience a little humility. If you can't entertain the possibility that you did damage, you're no better than those you skewer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Yep, sounds like the husband. lol


----------



## turnera

CC, the guy wanted her to give up her kids so he could be happy.

Defend THAT.


----------



## ClipClop

You people are messed up. Seriously messed up. Believe what you will but you are 100% wrong. Of course you'll never admit that. So enjoy your ignorance if it makes you feel good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mom6547

ClipClop said:


> That's right. Discredit the poster when you disagree with the message. It only supports my contention that this place can be dangerous for a marriage in trouble. A therapist with an alternate view wouldn't be accused of such a thing but it is easy to do to an anon stranger, just like it was easy to trash this guy. Isn't your relationship so no skin off your nose.


Even a therapist knows that there are some relationships not worth saving.


----------



## ClipClop

turnera said:


> CC, the guy wanted her to give up her kids so he could be happy.
> 
> Defend THAT.


And I never wished I hadn't had kids a time or two myself... people grasping at straws under stress say and do some funky things. But I don't believe for a second he meant that. If he did he wouldn't leave. He'd insist on their dad taking them instead.

You've probably never uttered an if only that you knew wasn't totally nice but would theoretically solve an immediate issue. Of course under even a tiny bit of scrutiny you know it isn't not only not nice, but un feasible and undoable for moral or because of love and or responsibility.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ClipClop

Mom, are you in a position to judge people you don't even know? I don't know a therapist who would be as unprofessional, do you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mom6547

CC are you Tobio's sig?


----------



## ClipClop

No.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WhereAmI

Catherine602 said:


> Interestin, CC joined 4/28/11, all the post are directed towards woman having relationship problems. Tobio has signed in every day with out posting when she usually post daily.
> 
> The CC post are biased towards the wondering male and very critical of a woman who is hurt. . Sounds more male with a grip against women who have the nerve to make demands on men who stray.
> 
> I wonder if this is who I think he is. All I can say is WOW. I feel so desperately sorry for Tobio, I can't imagine what she is going through. If this is who I think it is,
> 
> No more Tobio just CC explaining the non-husbands position.
> 
> You get to see what is going on in his head.


I was wondering the same thing.

Are the mods willing to do an IP check?


----------



## Conrad

Wow - I don't think there is any doubt.


----------



## ClipClop

Yeah. That's nice. You peeps are acting just like a wayward who won't examine themselves. Turn it around on the other person. Deflection is a skill you've mastered well.

Very sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

How many of his 33 total posts are in this thread?


----------



## turnera

I tried looking him up yesterday and they're just scattered all over the place. Except here, of course.


----------



## ClipClop

Dunno. Why don't you waste some of your obviously valuable time looking that up. Then draw some erroneous conclusion from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

ClipClop said:


> I don't believe for a second he meant that. If he did he wouldn't leave. He'd insist on their dad taking them instead.


Excuse me?

What's the difference between getting rid of your kids and getting the dad to take them?


----------



## turnera

CC, just so you know, you can keep tobio from posting here, to 'protect' her from getting erroneous information and dumping you, but it WILL catch up with you. 

She WILL leave you eventually if you don't stop and take a good hard look at youreslf and what you're doing. And get your OWN therapy to find out why you do the things you've done. And learn how to stop harming people just to get what you want.

The real issue here is what it's doing to the kids.


----------



## ClipClop

Omg, you are nuts. I am not him. But I do think you peeps need to yank that plank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mom6547

ClipClop, please tell me you understand that "just have Dad take them" is not a solution that a mother can make to a relationship problem.


----------



## ClipClop

Obviously not. Never said it was. I have kids, an ex, a new guy and I get blended families. What I've never experienced is having my own after moving in with another man's kids. How this guy feels is real to him. What he does with it is up to him.

I hope he does right by everyone. But he sure won't do it because a group of internet looniescall him names and beat him down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Then I guess you have no reason to stick around this thread. 

Bye!


----------



## Mom6547

ClipClop said:


> Obviously not. Never said it was. I have kids, an ex, a new guy and I get blended families. What I've never experienced is having my own after moving in with another man's kids. How this guy feels is real to him. What he does with it is up to him.
> 
> I hope he does right by everyone. But he sure won't do it because a group of internet looniescall him names and beat him down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We weren't advising him. We were advising her. My advice to him would be don't be with a woman whose kids you cannot accept. But the advice to her, don't be with a man who cannot commit to you is still sound advice.


----------



## Catherine602

ClipClop said:


> That's right. Discredit the poster when you disagree with the message. It only supports my contention that this place can be dangerous for a marriage in trouble. A therapist with an alternate view wouldn't be accused of such a thing but it is easy to do to an anon stranger, just like it was easy to trash this guy. Isn't your relationship so no skin off your nose.
> 
> Read my other posts before you accuse me of being anti-woman.
> 
> Maybe you should get off your all knowing all seeing high horse and experience a little humility. If you can't entertain the possibility that you did damage, you're no better than those you skewer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one damaged the relationship, he did. Like you, he did not take any ownership of the role he played in the problems in the relationship. Like you, he excused everything and explained it away. He thought himself the artful dodger.

His artfulness worked with Tobio because she was unfortunately dependent on him. The only damage we did was to open Tobio eyes to his nature and ask her to give up her doormat status.

Like you, this endangered the relationship because it exposed his game. And he only reacts with anger and more artful dodging which has worked fro him in the past but is not working now. He was angry when he posted because no one brought his game. That will happen in his life as well. 

Like you, he would think it endangered the relationship. But what relationship was there to endanger? Do you mean that we endangered his cakewalking? He would have been able to string her along if we had not warned her.

So yes it endangered his ability to deceive her, if you want to call that a relationship. Were her post responsible for him walking out on his infant and child, or trying to blackmail Tobio into giving up her 2 kids? 

As to MC if he refused it. So how would they have taken advantage of it if it were not there? Are you saying these post somehow reached out to him and made him refuse to go to therapy.

She was the one who was in distress he was fine, he refused concealing so she came here to express herself. How do you think a councilor would have helped if he would not go? 

How could anyone tell that he was reading the post? Partners who are honest with each other and capable of true love and intimacy would probably not have invaded her privacy. 

He he was reading them, no one could predict that he would be so cold and artful as to not say anything or not go to her upon reading her distress. 

Who could tell that he would read them and be able to coldly evaluate them for what they said about him and never have one bit of pity on her to mention it. Is it the fault of people here that she could not get even a moment of solace from a person she gave so much to? 

Your a woman didn't you feel anything for her? Did you not wish that she could be happy that he would treat her with love and respect and value her. I believe only a person empty of any feeling except for himself could read these post, know her pain and not feel some compassion and go to her. 

Did you read the link to info about narcissist? A narcissist could do that they have no pity except for themselves.

As for her time line, she was hurting and she needed relief, should we have advised her to suck it up and let him take as long as he wished? 

If you had ever felt pain, you would you not want relief, especially if the request was to a person with the power of empathy. This what normal people do, they have the ability to put themselves in another shoes. They are not so consumed with love of themselves that they fail to do that. 

Do you feel anything at all for her, even a bit. How about her children, your a woman and a mother I'll bet, do you at lest feel anything for them.

I sincerely hope that he leaves her. He probably wont until he drains her dry. A narcissist is very destructive and therapy does not work, it is a lifelong pathology. I wonder how they feel inside? I wonder if they realize that they are pathologic? 

I have heard that karma catches up with them, they destroy everything and their artful dodging does not work. Usually when they are desperate and need someone to manipulate to help them. The anger you feel now will be nothing to the anger he will experience when that day comes.


----------



## ClipClop

Id written a response to mom but lost it. I'll just say thank you for engaging me without all the rancor of Catherine.
I take responsibility for myself and once again, erroneous conclusions based on zero data rule the day.

If you can't see how insanely illogical that is, nobody can make you see it. You see what you want to believe. It is suppose to be the other way around.

Enjoy your delusions. I hope they serve you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Bye!


----------



## Catherine602

No what he does with it is not up to him if you have kids you would know that. 

HIM, HIM, HIM. Is he more important than everyone else?

You can't have kids, and you can't be a mother if you think every thing is about him. You fail to realize that that is not normal. 

It is not normal to concentrate on what other people think and try to convince them to place every thing in their favor. That is a pathology, a sickness. You can't see that. It alien to you. 

I wonder what he did with her. I hope she has the sregth to get out from this empty man. 

His insides are so empty that his identity comes from what he can convinces people he is. The facade is important because there is nothing inside. Normal people have an inner life, their range of emotions are wider than just anger and self absorption. Read the info on narcissist you will see.


----------



## Catherine602

Your breaking character with the last post. You don't like my post because I've got his number. The game is weak. If I got it so easily, so will others. 

This is what happens to people who are absorbed with themselves, people don't like them because they are not really likable when their game is found out.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine,
No need to continue. We are all loonies afterall. Even Conrad, the wise Oracle.


----------



## ClipClop

This is what happens to people who are absorbed with themselves, people don't like them because they are not really likable when their game is found out.



Same could be said of you.

My god. The arrogance.

Brennan, I've enjoyed your posts on a great number of subjects. Is prefer you don't wreck the positive image I have of you by ignoring common sense and logic like Catherine. She thinks she knows me and everyone else. That's ****ed up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

ClipClop said:


> Brennan, I've enjoyed your posts on a great number of subjects. Is prefer you don't wreck the positive image I have of you by ignoring common sense and logic like Catherine. She thinks she knows me and everyone else. That's ****ed up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With all due respect, you referred to everybody here as internet loonies. Blanket statement, nobody was left out. You don't know me yet called me crazy. The same thing you got upset with Catherine over.


----------



## turnera

I thought you were done here. You've said so three times already.

Bye!


----------



## WhereAmI

ClipClop said:


> Same could be said of you.
> 
> My god. The arrogance.
> 
> Brennan, I've enjoyed your posts on a great number of subjects. Is prefer you don't wreck the positive image I have of you by ignoring common sense and logic like Catherine. She thinks she knows me and everyone else. That's ****ed up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sure Brennan is extremely concerned with how you view her. Your inability to accept an opinion other than your own without resorting to insults doesn't do anything for your image, btw.

Who has the ban stick? I'm calling troll.


----------



## turnera

ClipClop said:


> Is prefer *you don't wreck the positive image I have of you* by ignoring common sense and logic like Catherine.


btw, CC, just in case you ARE here to learn and improve yourself, THIS is messed up. It's passive aggressive BS that puts the onus of your issues on someone else's shoulders. If she'd only be good and shut up or else agree with me, I'd continue to like her.

meh


----------



## turnera

WhereAmI said:


> I'm sure Brennan is extremely concerned with how you view her. Your inability to accept an opinion other than your own without resorting to insults doesn't do anything for your image, btw.


----------



## turnera

btw, tobio, if you ARE still reading but have been 'banned' from speaking, just let us know and we'll stop threadjacking your thread and having fun with this doofus.


----------



## ClipClop

Catherine, you are hardly in my league. Don't kid yourself. You think you know something when you are actually clueless. Your inability to accept what I say with any grace stands on its own. Further, your indistance that I am him is even more foolish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mom6547

ClipClop said:


> Catherine, you are hardly in my league. Don't kid yourself. You think you know something when you are actually clueless. Your inability to accept what I say with any grace stands on its own.


Now THAT was funny.


----------



## Catherine602

ClipClop said:


> Catherine, you are hardly in my league. Don't kid yourself. You think you know something when you are actually clueless. Your inability to accept what I say with any grace stands on its own. Further, your indistance that I am him is even more foolish.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not in your league - don't kid yourself. Narcissist are always over confident. You're right about the league thing - I rank way above you as you can see in this pleasant sparing match. I bested you and you don't like being beat.


----------



## turnera

ClipClop said:


> Catherine, you are hardly in my league.


:rofl:

What are you, 12?


----------



## ClipClop

Catherine, do you know anything about self-reflection? 

Very amusing comeback tunera. come back and look at your responses to me in a year or six months when you can feel properly embarrassed for your treatment of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

turnera said:


> btw, tobio, if you ARE still reading but have been 'banned' from speaking, just let us know and we'll stop threadjacking your thread and having fun with this doofus.


Can't you save that stuff for the Ladies Lounge?


----------



## ManDup

AFEH said:


> Can't you save that stuff for the Ladies Lounge?


Really, this entire thread devolved into a catfight. Reoww.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

ManDup,
You should feel right at home here then.


----------



## Jellybeans

Did Tob ever come back?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

No. I think Turnera or was it Catherine got it right. Perhaps she got back with him and part of the "condition" for him coming back was her not coming here anymore. Sounds plausible.


----------



## Jellybeans

Well hopefully that isn't what happened. I wonder if he also made her get rid of her kids as the condition.

Bad joke. I know.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I hope that this scenario didn't play out. He truly isn't worth it.


----------



## turnera

ClipClop said:


> *come back *and look at your responses to me in a year or six months *when you can feel* properly embarrassed for your treatment of me.


Yes, mother.

lol

tobio, I hope you do come back and let us know how you are. We're worried about you.


----------



## Catherine602

Tobio, I know you are under much stress now and you are sacrificing for your children. Keep working on yourself, get out and work take courses anything that keeps you out and talking to normal people. 

Living with someone who tries to control your thoughts makes it difficult to keep your hold on reality. You need to stay in contact with the outside world as much as possible. 

Don't forget what you discovered here. If you need to bury it now for expediency and survival, that's good. But don't forget. Protect your heart and plan carefully, the time will be right one day. 

Therapy will probably be more of the same as you have read here, no different, unless he pretends to go along. It will most likely not touch his heart. You know him now, you see what he is. 

I think you are a wonderful person, it comes through so much in your post and I hope the love you get is 100X what you give. It can be so, you just have to act fearlessly to claim your legacy. It waits for you. The very best to you.


----------



## AFEH

Some of you ladies are going to get a massive amount of egg on your face. Believe me I know. It will be interesting to see if you have the balls to apologise.

Bob


----------



## Catherine602

AFEH said:


> Some of you ladies are going to get a massive amount of egg on your face. Believe me I know. It will be interesting to see if you have the balls to apologise.
> 
> Bob


How do you know for sure? Have you been convinced of something by someone.


----------



## turnera

Apologize for what?


----------



## AFEH

Catherine602 said:


> How do you know for sure? Have you been convinced of something by someone.


You mean Catherine that you don’t have “PROOF” that Tobio is being prevented from posting? And that your posts are based totally on your imagination and conjecture? That you are flaming her OH without any proof whatsoever?

If that is the case it’s quite unbelievable. I did give you a heads up a few pages back and still you carried on.

And if it’s true you don’t have proof, there was a lot in what ClipClop was saying.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Catherine602 said:


> What would a person have to be to make up an online identity to try to talk strangers into validating their actions?


While CC is a touch suspicious, it is hardly a forgone conclusion that s/he is Mr Tobio. 



> Why would a person expend the energy to argue with people who don't really matter about something so vital and serious?
> 
> Who is the audience, Tobio? She can't write because he has locked that down as the price of his august presence in her life, but she can read. Someone checks in every day.


Wow you have no real way to know if this is what has happened.Are you so emotionally invested here that you are becoming delusional? Or are we still in conjecture land, where we belong?


----------



## turnera

I'm confused. Bob, what are you talking about?


----------



## AFEH

Mom6547 said:


> Wow you have no real way to know if this is what has happened.Are you so emotionally invested here that you are becoming delusional?




Just that Turnera.

Bob


----------



## turnera

I don't get what the problem was. Aside from some of us escalating an argument with CC which, IMO, was warranted, given what was being asked of tobio and what seems to have happened to tobio, and how CC was choosing illogical arguments. If CC isn't MrTobio, fine. He/she won't be the first person accused of being a troll or imposter. Frankly, I thought he/she was funny; if you can't get involved in such a discussion without going bananas, you should just walk away. JMHO


----------



## Affaircare

You know what's funny? I actually dreamed about this thread the other night. Know why? Because it has taken such a funky turn and not for the better I'm afraid. 

There are two major things I've learned working here on this forum for more than a year: *1) What you hear from a poster is usually about half of the story.* Rarely if ever take everything that's written 100% at face value because as human beings we tend to minimize our own part -- like the disloyal who tells the family she's leaving her husband because he screamed at her for three hours straight, but just "forgets" to mention that it was because she just told him she had slept with another man. *2) Stick with the facts only.* Don't intuit, don't think that what's happening "to them" is what happened to you, and don't jump to conclusions--gather more data. Ask more questions. Deal with the facts that you have and don't make assumptions. Here's why. Looking at the same disloyal above, she could come on the site and say "My husband just screamed at me for three hours! Is that abuse?" Now...we don't know what is occuring, what lead to that event, why anyone did what they did. Without digging for more facts, one might easily say "Oh yes, being screamed at for three hours is verbal abuse. Leave that man!" and we just told a disloyal it was okay to leave her spouse without knowing what we're doing! 

In this case, here are the facts (as told by Tobio): 

Tobio and her SO are NOT married (this was a fact that I myself did miss). If you research Tobio's name you'd see that she actually talked about this in Nov. 2010 and at that time her SO was not too hot to get married. 
Tobio has two children from a previous relationship. 
Tobio and her SO have 2 children together, one is an infant now. 
SO flirted with and subsequently kissed a girl associated with work. 
He did realize that crossed a line and told her about it. 
He moved out for a brief time and they reconciled. 
After they moved back together, he gave OW some candy. 
Tobio felt hurt and angry about "the kiss" but did not reveal the "true her" to him...the real hurt and mourning (her words) or the anger... so that is lack of transparency. 
Tobio seemed to think that Conrad was onto something when he talked about SO having issues being STEP-dad (discipling, parenting styles, being naughty, etc.). 
OW texted SO "thanks" for the candies and again, he told her. SO found the thread. 
Tobio continues to obsess about the OW but doesn't share it, and what she does share, SO avoids. 
SO also will not take responsibility for acting in an unfaithful way. 
OW sent a message to Tobio on FB that nothing happened. 
SO started pulling away about 4/12 and 4/17 he decided he's leaving, saying she had kids and he can't deal wih that. 
On 4/18 Tobio discovers he has been texting OW. He has moved out. 
SO has spent significant time with his children. 
They did go to initial counseling. 
Tobio has not replied on any thread since 4/30 but someone (we don't know who) has logged into Tobio's name and checked on the site pretty much every day.

What I'm about to say is probably not going to be very popular, but Tobio and her SO are not married. When a person gets married, they volunteer to take on certain responsibilities and a covenant is formed that is formal and binding, legally and spiritually. When that commitment is in place, they have both made promises in front of God and family to forsake all others--and at that point each one is due 100% of the affection and loyalty of their spouse. As much as she may want that commitment to be there, and as much as they are "living together" or sharing expenses, the fact remains that they are not married. When a person makes babies with another person, the responsibility is to the child, not necessarily to the other parent unless the parents are married. Furthermore, as an adult Tobio is choosing to live with and make babies with a person who has clearly demonstrated by word and deed that he is not willing to commit to her for a lifetime. Now I'm not "blaming" anyone here, but part of the issue is that Tobio knew he was not committing to her and still chose to stay and to make babies! 

Yes, there is "commonlaw marriage" which is a legal definition used when a couple presents themselves as married, pay taxes as married, have children and joint assets as married...and then choose to separate or "divorce"...but how can they "divorce" if they aren't married? In this case, Tobio had two children from a previous relationship, chose to live with a man who did not want to commit to her and her alone, made two more children with him, and is now saying that the man who didn't commit to her has not been faithful to her. Well...he didn't commit to her! I don't see an obligation to Tobio--legally or spiritually. I see an obligation to the children he made! And from what I can see, he has upheld that obligation since moving out. 

Single people are not "obliged" to be faithful or be with only one person or be exclusive or anything...MARRIED people are. If they were married, he'd be treating her inappropriately--as it is, I would say it's not "high moral character" but it's well within his rights. Is it in bad taste to live with one woman and kiss another? SURE! Does it hurt? YES! But the enormous part of the issue here is that TOBIO is an adult. She has known for a while now that if he wanted to marry her, they would be married. Despite knowing that he was unwilling to commit to her and only her, she stayed when she was pregnant with the first child and afterward and when she was pregnant with the second and afterward. That is HER CHOICE to stay with a man who will not commit to her and only her. It was HER CHOICE to stay and live in the illusion that he would marry her one day, they were a family, and they were obliged AS IF they were married. Once they made babies my guess is that Tobio figured they would eventually marry if she just hung out long enough, but that is HER assumption, not him. He was clear--he was not "into" marriage or commitment. It is also the consequence of her choice to now have two children by a man who will not commit to her. 

*So to Tobio I would say this:* The most important advice I would give you is that you do not need to make babies with men in order to have one love you and want to commit himself to you and you alone. You are too valuable to give yourself to someone who is not willing to put everyone else aside for only you. Thus, I'd recommend waiting until someone comes along who says: "I am willing to commit myself, mind body and soul, to you and only you and no one else ever." Then be with THAT guy (whoever that is). Do not put yourself in the position of living with a man and possibly having children together until he is willing to make that kind of legal and spiritual covenant to YOU. Then when you do make children, it is in a place so that the children are safe from heartache because their mom and dad are committed to each other. And dear, don't take this wrong--I did the exact same thing. I had a child and met my first H, and he did not want to get married. He was a flirt and knew that he wasn't "good" at being faithful and I'm not being judgmental--that's just who he was. But I didn't listen and I stayed too and had a baby too. He did eventually marry me but after about four years of me nagging...not out of love or commitment or fidelity. When our marriage exploded, it really HURT the children! So don't fool yourself. If he's "into you" he'll be the one saying, "You're a treasure! I want to marry you!" Also, go back and re-read what I wrote in http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23261-he-kissed-another-woman.html  lol

*To Tobio's SO (if he were to read here) I would say this:* if you love her and are willing to make a commitment to her and her other two kids forever, do the man-up thing and marry her--if you don't, do the man-up thing and let her go. The fact that people made all kinds of assumptions on here and jumped to conclusions...well I'm sorry to say that lots of times people assume that what happened to them is what's happening to everybody. The thing is, when you live with someone and make children with them, the fact is that it's likely the other person will start having expectations, especially when it comes to fidelity. She's the mother of your children--and it doesn't show the best judgment to succumb to temptation, kiss another woman, give another woman gifts, and get drunk and use that as an excuse to text another woman. If you want to be with her, at least admit that making babies with her and then kissing another woman is not cool and it's reasonable for her to not exactly trust you right now. Yeah, maybe you're "not like that" but while you were being "not like that" you kissed someone else, gave someone else a gift, and got drunk enough to contact someone else again. Do the decent thing: either get with her and be honest and be open and let her know everything that is in your heart and mind--or let her go find a man who's willing to give that to her. She's got to stop hiding her feelings and her thoughts from you too...but if you two both make decisions with wisdom and choose to do this, you can make a strong marriage. YOU both need to learn to be personally responsible and be HONEST, facing reality even if it isn't what you want. If it's just an illusion or a lie "to protect the other person" it will never work. You can deal with it, HEAD ON, and create a strong, loving marriage if you face the real live truth.


----------



## AFEH

In English Law a Common Law Relationship does NOT have anything like the protection of a Marriage. No matter how many children or how long the relationship. It is a very COMMON MISPERCEPTION that it does.

I’m not in anyway alluding that may have been Tobio’s thoughts. Just saying that’s all. And of course right now as things are “these days” there are those trying to give common law relationships the same protection and status as a Marriage. I think that’s a madness. Signing that piece of paper and wearing that ring does at the very least greatly “SYMBOLISE” both partner’s “INTENT”. Doesn’t necessarily hold them together in times of trouble, many here to bare witness to that. But it does greatly help when there is TRUE COMMITMENT from both parties by way of Marriage.

Bob


----------



## Catherine602

Affaircare - elegant and sadly true. Thank's for your clarity. Somehow, your post is a relief, I did become too worried about Tobio. But in the end, the current state of the relationship was largely predictable, based upon the way it began.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jpeace

Affaircare said:


> You know what's funny? I actually dreamed about this thread the other night. Know why? Because it has taken such a funky turn and not for the better I'm afraid.
> 
> There are two major things I've learned working here on this forum for more than a year: *1) What you hear from a poster is usually about half of the story.* Rarely if ever take everything that's written 100% at face value because as human beings we tend to minimize our own part -- like the disloyal who tells the family she's leaving her husband because he screamed at her for three hours straight, but just "forgets" to mention that it was because she just told him she had slept with another man. *2) Stick with the facts only.* Don't intuit, don't think that what's happening "to them" is what happened to you, and don't jump to conclusions--gather more data. Ask more questions. Deal with the facts that you have and don't make assumptions. Here's why. Looking at the same disloyal above, she could come on the site and say "My husband just screamed at me for three hours! Is that abuse?" Now...we don't know what is occuring, what lead to that event, why anyone did what they did. Without digging for more facts, one might easily say "Oh yes, being screamed at for three hours is verbal abuse. Leave that man!" and we just told a disloyal it was okay to leave her spouse without knowing what we're doing!
> 
> In this case, here are the facts (as told by Tobio):
> 
> Tobio and her SO are NOT married (this was a fact that I myself did miss). If you research Tobio's name you'd see that she actually talked about this in Nov. 2010 and at that time her SO was not too hot to get married.
> Tobio has two children from a previous relationship.
> Tobio and her SO have 2 children together, one is an infant now.
> SO flirted with and subsequently kissed a girl associated with work.
> He did realize that crossed a line and told her about it.
> He moved out for a brief time and they reconciled.
> After they moved back together, he gave OW some candy.
> Tobio felt hurt and angry about "the kiss" but did not reveal the "true her" to him...the real hurt and mourning (her words) or the anger... so that is lack of transparency.
> Tobio seemed to think that Conrad was onto something when he talked about SO having issues being STEP-dad (discipling, parenting styles, being naughty, etc.).
> OW texted SO "thanks" for the candies and again, he told her. SO found the thread.
> Tobio continues to obsess about the OW but doesn't share it, and what she does share, SO avoids.
> SO also will not take responsibility for acting in an unfaithful way.
> OW sent a message to Tobio on FB that nothing happened.
> SO started pulling away about 4/12 and 4/17 he decided he's leaving, saying she had kids and he can't deal wih that.
> On 4/18 Tobio discovers he has been texting OW. He has moved out.
> SO has spent significant time with his children.
> They did go to initial counseling.
> Tobio has not replied on any thread since 4/30 but someone (we don't know who) has logged into Tobio's name and checked on the site pretty much every day.
> 
> What I'm about to say is probably not going to be very popular, but Tobio and her SO are not married. When a person gets married, they volunteer to take on certain responsibilities and a covenant is formed that is formal and binding, legally and spiritually. When that commitment is in place, they have both made promises in front of God and family to forsake all others--and at that point each one is due 100% of the affection and loyalty of their spouse. As much as she may want that commitment to be there, and as much as they are "living together" or sharing expenses, the fact remains that they are not married. When a person makes babies with another person, the responsibility is to the child, not necessarily to the other parent unless the parents are married. Furthermore, as an adult Tobio is choosing to live with and make babies with a person who has clearly demonstrated by word and deed that he is not willing to commit to her for a lifetime. Now I'm not "blaming" anyone here, but part of the issue is that Tobio knew he was not committing to her and still chose to stay and to make babies!
> 
> Yes, there is "commonlaw marriage" which is a legal definition used when a couple presents themselves as married, pay taxes as married, have children and joint assets as married...and then choose to separate or "divorce"...but how can they "divorce" if they aren't married? In this case, Tobio had two children from a previous relationship, chose to live with a man who did not want to commit to her and her alone, made two more children with him, and is now saying that the man who didn't commit to her has not been faithful to her. Well...he didn't commit to her! I don't see an obligation to Tobio--legally or spiritually. I see an obligation to the children he made! And from what I can see, he has upheld that obligation since moving out.
> 
> Single people are not "obliged" to be faithful or be with only one person or be exclusive or anything...MARRIED people are. If they were married, he'd be treating her inappropriately--as it is, I would say it's not "high moral character" but it's well within his rights. Is it in bad taste to live with one woman and kiss another? SURE! Does it hurt? YES! But the enormous part of the issue here is that TOBIO is an adult. She has known for a while now that if he wanted to marry her, they would be married. Despite knowing that he was unwilling to commit to her and only her, she stayed when she was pregnant with the first child and afterward and when she was pregnant with the second and afterward. That is HER CHOICE to stay with a man who will not commit to her and only her. It was HER CHOICE to stay and live in the illusion that he would marry her one day, they were a family, and they were obliged AS IF they were married. Once they made babies my guess is that Tobio figured they would eventually marry if she just hung out long enough, but that is HER assumption, not him. He was clear--he was not "into" marriage or commitment. It is also the consequence of her choice to now have two children by a man who will not commit to her.
> 
> *So to Tobio I would say this:* The most important advice I would give you is that you do not need to make babies with men in order to have one love you and want to commit himself to you and you alone. You are too valuable to give yourself to someone who is not willing to put everyone else aside for only you. Thus, I'd recommend waiting until someone comes along who says: "I am willing to commit myself, mind body and soul, to you and only you and no one else ever." Then be with THAT guy (whoever that is). Do not put yourself in the position of living with a man and possibly having children together until he is willing to make that kind of legal and spiritual covenant to YOU. Then when you do make children, it is in a place so that the children are safe from heartache because their mom and dad are committed to each other. And dear, don't take this wrong--I did the exact same thing. I had a child and met my first H, and he did not want to get married. He was a flirt and knew that he wasn't "good" at being faithful and I'm not being judgmental--that's just who he was. But I didn't listen and I stayed too and had a baby too. He did eventually marry me but after about four years of me nagging...not out of love or commitment or fidelity. When our marriage exploded, it really HURT the children! So don't fool yourself. If he's "into you" he'll be the one saying, "You're a treasure! I want to marry you!" Also, go back and re-read what I wrote in http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/23261-he-kissed-another-woman.html  lol
> 
> *To Tobio's SO (if he were to read here) I would say this:* if you love her and are willing to make a commitment to her and her other two kids forever, do the man-up thing and marry her--if you don't, do the man-up thing and let her go. The fact that people made all kinds of assumptions on here and jumped to conclusions...well I'm sorry to say that lots of times people assume that what happened to them is what's happening to everybody. The thing is, when you live with someone and make children with them, the fact is that it's likely the other person will start having expectations, especially when it comes to fidelity. She's the mother of your children--and it doesn't show the best judgment to succumb to temptation, kiss another woman, give another woman gifts, and get drunk and use that as an excuse to text another woman. If you want to be with her, at least admit that making babies with her and then kissing another woman is not cool and it's reasonable for her to not exactly trust you right now. Yeah, maybe you're "not like that" but while you were being "not like that" you kissed someone else, gave someone else a gift, and got drunk enough to contact someone else again. Do the decent thing: either get with her and be honest and be open and let her know everything that is in your heart and mind--or let her go find a man who's willing to give that to her. She's got to stop hiding her feelings and her thoughts from you too...but if you two both make decisions with wisdom and choose to do this, you can make a strong marriage. YOU both need to learn to be personally responsible and be HONEST, facing reality even if it isn't what you want. If it's just an illusion or a lie "to protect the other person" it will never work. You can deal with it, HEAD ON, and create a strong, loving marriage if you face the real live truth.


I have an insane amount of respect for your logic and the time it took to do this. Just simply helping out this much is a truly commendable feat.


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## justausername

I read through this whole thread and what a mess.

Anyway this is a case of IMO judging from this end not enough concise communication from the getgo.

I see confusion and priorities that are out of whack.

I hope that the OP is well with whatever path she decided to take.

On a side note being I'm new here: Let me compliment some of the sweet women on here for being compassionate and loving. I also love the "Hug and Love" signature.

GOD Bless!


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