# Opinions of Separation and Recovery



## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Hello, I'm hoping to get some insight on my separation from my husband. We were best friends for 15 years, dated for 6 of those years and married for 1 and a half of those years. I'm only 29, so this situation is all the more devastating to me because I'm losing not just my best friend and husband, but my family, as his has been mine since we were teenagers.

We are exactly the same person except for one major aspect, the aspect that most couples fight over - money. I'm a saver and planner, someone that forgoes a cute new dress every other week to pay down my student loans just a little bit more. He is a spender, who would rather get a new ultrasaber or newest blu ray with 2 hours of bonus commentary than put anything in a savings account. This has caused some tension that has increased over the years. I want a house someday and he is alright with apartment renting forever. A year ago (almost exactly to the day) we got into a really heated argument when he missed a payment on something because he didn't want to auto debit his account, and caused his credit score to drop. We were looking for a bigger apartment and now could not due to how low his score had gotten. We were driving in the car, and I was furious he could be so reckless. During the fight at one point I said "I'm the kind of family that can leave you." These are words I wish I could take back everyday and caused everything to go downhill.

A week or so later he checked his credit on Credit Karma, where his score dropped again to about 550. He panicked and took a whole bottle of sleeping pills. When I found him, he was still awake, and I kept asking him "what happened? what did you do? what was in this bottle?" to which he only replied "you are going to leave me" over and over again. After he was sent to the hospital and monitored for a few days, he was released, and told me that talking about this again would be a huge trigger for him that he could not take.

While I understand what had happened and tried to make the conversation as easy as possible, as a couple, you can not always avoid money talk. Little things like "who is paying for this expense?" when it was not a normal expense or "it's raise time! How did you do?" would shut him down (we got hired at the same company the same day, so I would share with him my reviews and he was always reluctant to share his, despite the fact that they were always great reviews.)

Finally this month we got a notice in the mail from our complex that if we want to renew it is time. Last year I got two promotions and he had gotten one, so he said "I think I'm ready for the new apartment." I told him that's fine, but I warned him that they would want to recheck his credit and if that would be alright. He said that's fine, but I asked if we could look at it in marriage counseling together first to be sure that we would be approved credit wise, as I was worried a rejection would hurt him and cause another suicide attempt. He said that was fine. Then on 02/17, he announced during therapy it was too much and all I cared about was money, and that he was going back to his mom's house.

Since then we've been talking on the phone and going to therapy, and I'm getting mixed messages. At first, he'd say he loves me but is not sure if he is in love with me anymore, and act indifferent. He still won't say he is in love with me, but we had a great therapy session last Wednesday and I hope the next will be equally good. Last night we talked briefly on the phone again (our counselor said that no contact would be bad, to contact a little each day or every other day) and we had a great conversation. At the end of it I said "is it alright to say I love you?" to which he replied "yes, I love you too." He didn't say it as an 'I love you but not in love with you' or 'I'm madly in love with you' kind of way, but it was the most sincere I've heard since the day he announced he was leaving.

I guess my questions are does this sound like it can be fixed, is it on the upswing again and hopefully he realizes we can work this out? How do I let go of money drama, when I know we were doing fine financially the way we are? Since he is in such a damaged state and feeling unloved, what can be done if anything to show him I love him, without pushing and nagging on him too hard? Of course I want him to come home, but I don't want to rush him into anything he isn't ready for.


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## kaybenn (Oct 9, 2015)

Have both of you talked about the importance of budgeting? Is there the possibility of attending a seminar on budgeting together?

Sent from my Nexus 5


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
He sounds quite immature and really unprepared to be in a mature relationship. If you seriously desire to be with him you will have to help him grow and mature. For instance, you need to set some basic rules regarding finances. You could come to an agreement that a certain amount of the finances goes into savings and certain amount is disposable. If he wants a major ticket item he will have to learn to put away the disposable income until there are sufficient funds to buy the item.

His mother is enabling his behavior by allowing him to run home to mommy when trouble arises. She may, quite possibly, just be continuing a behavior of her's throughout his childhood that has left him in this immature state. She must force him to face and solve his problems, not run from them.

Marriage is about compromise and consideration. Your threat was severe but his reaction to it was exaggerated. He needs to understand why he responded so dramatically to your statement. Life will throw many more curve balls at you and he must mature his coping skills if he is to face them. Good fortune.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Red, You are much too young to have this much stress in your life.

Your husband needs more than marriage counseling if he will attempt suicide over a lowered credit score. His problems are much deeper than your marriage problems or money issues. He needs individual (mental health) therapy and until he gets it any reconciliation on marriage must be on hold. Otherwise he will continue to use his threat of attempted suicide to control you. 

You have been friends more than half your life. What happen to switch the relationship from friendship to lovers? You dated for six years. Did you not during that time every discuss money, life plans, how many kids you want if any? His spending habits should not have been a surprise to you. Did you think that would change after marriage? Many couples do not fight over money. It is common but not as much as a given as you think. Wasn't his lack of maturity apparent to you?

This is really serious as you know: "After he was sent to the hospital and monitored for a few days, he was released, and told me that talking about this again would be a huge trigger for him that he could not take." Was there no follow up therapy for him? Just release and done? He needs therapy now, just him, and maybe getting it while he stays at mom's might be the better route. Have you spoken with him mom about the help he MUST YET GET?

Honest question for you to think about - Why did you really marry him?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

How can you possibly envision a healthy marriage with a man whom you cannot discuss problems without fear of a suicide attemp?

The sleeping pills over a low credit score is crazy. So is having a 5?? Credit score after one missed payment. There are other reasons for a score that low. He moves back in with mom over an apartment decision? Now he is moved out, but supposedly was willing to end his life over the fear of losing you?

So which is it? He is so afraid he'll lose you he would commit suicide, or now he doesn't want you at all and moves out?

None of this makes any sense.
You'll have to clear up these discrepancies in your post. Otherwise I'm thinking it's not even legit.

If this is a legit post, surely you have to know that living with a person who is mentally unstable isn't good for you, and his moving out of his own decision is actually great for you?
Surely you see that there is no building a future with someone that had mental problems?

Anyway, ball is in your court.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

To clear up some things: We did discuss finances and what we wanted in life before moving out. We decided that we never want kids (and are sticking to that), a smaller house because of the fact that we don't want kids, etc. It is in the last year that he has really been unable to talk about money and I think it is over the fear of losing me. He brings up the argument, along with my comment, and how afraid it made him every time money was mentioned. I'm not sure what to make of this most recent reaction. Maybe he is too immature, maybe it's an "i'll leave you before you can leave me" reaction, I don't know. He has also been on medication and seeing a therapist himself as well as with a marriage counselor. Finally, his credit score was always shaky, hovering at 600, but he was late several payments at the same time which made it drop so badly.

As to why I married him? I love him. I love that he is full of energy, life and love. He's incredibly attractive and a great friend. The only difference between us is the money issues.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Yes. You are too hung up on money.

Yes. He has a very serious emotional/mental condition and needs an evaluation pronto.

I understand your concerns about money but threatening to leave over a late payment shows very low coping skills.

You both need to have goals that somewhat line up.

Yours don't.

That is the real issue as I don't see anything unhealthy about his goals or yours.

You need to learn not to manipulate him into a mold you desire.

He is who he is and you need to admit that his goals might be a deal breaker for you.

If you had threatened to leave me about a late payment, I would have helped you move that day.

He is less fiscally responsible than you but doesn't sound like he has a problem with that.

Either learn to adjust some of your life choices to his or you should go.

Neither of you is wrong in your choice of lifestyle but you are trying to force him into your box.

That is no way to love and respect someone you are committed to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Conanhub, you are absolutely right about my reaction. I was unhealthy and we are still working on our communication issues. That argument haunts me for all that it's done to my love lift and friendship. What I'm asking for I guess, more than anything else, are better communication and coping mechanisms.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Conanhub, you are absolutely right about my reaction. I was unhealthy and we are still working on our communication issues. That argument haunts me for all that it's done to my love lift and friendship. What I'm asking for I guess, more than anything else, are better communication and coping mechanisms. A credit score and a slightly larger place is nothing in comparison to losing that companionship and while he is still willing to go to therapy, I am still trying for my marriage.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

As the others posted, the suicide attempt is the main issue here. I am hoping that he is getting intensive counseling to work on whatever the issues are....otherwise, you run the risk of this happening again.

A budget is no big deal with mature adults. That can be worked on during your MC session. 

I wish you the best.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Redtide said:


> Conanhub, you are absolutely right about my reaction. I was unhealthy and we are still working on our communication issues. That argument haunts me for all that it's done to my love lift and friendship. What I'm asking for I guess, more than anything else, are better communication and coping mechanisms. A credit score and a slightly larger place is nothing in comparison to losing that companionship and while he is still willing to go to therapy, I am still trying for my marriage.


Who are you asking for those better communication and coping skills from? Be honest.


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## wanttolove (Jan 25, 2012)

You really only asked one question -- Can this be fixed?

Yes.

Reading through your story, it's obvious that you think you have hurt him. You have, IMO, but it may be less about the message (money) than the delivery. You need him to work with you on the money, he's not, and that hurts you. If that is the only true issue in your relationship, you softening the delivery of the money message and him learning to grow up to make mature spending decisions will go a long way in healing your relationship. I know that is over simplified, but that's it.

You have a lot invested in your relationship. In the long run, that trumps everything else, including where you live. Could that be the way your husband looks at your relationship? Maybe, just maybe, that is why he was cut so deeply. At any rate, it sounds like you value what you have together, including a solid family relationship. That is such a blessing, something many people do not have. 

You both are young. I'm 54 years young and still have a ton of growing up to do. We guys are that way!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Redtide said:


> Conanhub, you are absolutely right about my reaction. I was unhealthy and we are still working on our communication issues. That argument haunts me for all that it's done to my love lift and friendship. What I'm asking for I guess, more than anything else, are better communication and coping mechanisms. A credit score and a slightly larger place is nothing in comparison to losing that companionship and while he is still willing to go to therapy, I am still trying for my marriage.


He needs some individual counseling. There is a much larger problem than communication between you that is bothering him.

I don't want to hazard a guess as to what his problem is but it seriously needs addressed.

Your marriage can recover if you both work together. You can schedule MC and/or get books to read together. HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS, FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES, ETC...

Just reading together and answering questions from the books increases intimacy and communication skills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Redtide said:


> .....He panicked and took a whole bottle of sleeping pills. When I found him, he was still awake, and I kept asking him "what happened? what did you do? what was in this bottle?" to which he only replied "you are going to leave me" over and over again. After he was sent to the hospital and monitored for a few days, he was released, and told me that talking about this again would be a huge trigger for him that he could not take.


This is very bad and it could be a sign that he's disordered. This type of behavior reeks of borderline personality control. He may attempt to control you with his threats/actions of suicide attempts. This is AFU.

Recommend you do not share assets with this guy or bank together. It is apparent you have different financial goals and maybe incompatible. Maintain strong boundaries.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

helolover said:


> This is very bad and it could be a sign that he's disordered. This type of behavior reeks of borderline personality control. He may attempt to control you with his threats/actions of suicide attempts. This is AFU.
> 
> Recommend you do not share assets with this guy or bank together. It is apparent you have different financial goals and maybe incompatible. Maintain strong boundaries.


Hello,

Thank you for your insight and it's definitely something to think over. Do you mind if I ask what AFU stands for?


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Redtide said:


> Hello,
> 
> Thank you for your insight and it's definitely something to think over. Do you mind if I ask what AFU stands for?


AFU = all f**ked up


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

In a very general sense, I do not believe separation and recovery(reconciliation) work for most couples. In your specific case, I agree with Conan.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

I do understand what Conan is saying and don't disagree, but I do not believe it's completely un-salvageable. I've been doing some hard reflecting in the last few weeks of separation and I realize a large majority of the problem is me. I have been so unhappy with myself (not him, he has been a loving husband that can over-react to negative stimuli) and not willing to confront my unhappiness. I buried my unhappiness in my career and finances, asking him to do the same, because I felt so out of control of my life that I needed to control his as well. This is wrong, my threat was wrong, and money will not fill the hole inside of me. I came from a very broken family and swore to myself as a child I would do everything in my power to make enough money to never live in a place like that again. Although we were making enough money to live on our own, that panic still gripped me. "We work at the same company, what if we get laid off? I need to work more to prepare for that." "I'm 29, soon 30, and I should have a house by now. I need to work more to save." Etc, etc.

And now that I've lost the love of my life to that obsession? It's trivial. What is a larger home or apartment if you don't have the person you adore there with you? I'm not saying my husband is perfect and didn't over react, but surely I'm not the only person here that realized a lot of the issues actually DO come yourself rather than your loved one. I've been reading up about letting money issues go and rebuild yourself into a healthier person, but any advice on how I do that can help me. Even if he doesn't come back, I am the one that is broken as well, and need to get well.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

See if this might help, but I think there is a deeper issue that can't be worked on alone. I think you have some irrational fears. You expect a little too much when you say you "should" have a house by now. By whose standards is this the only correct age? I think you are forgetting to be grateful for what you have. I think you are doing very well. I think it's your perspective of how thing must be that's hurting you.

Some Ideas to Help Stop Obsessing | World of Psychology


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

An update to this, for what it matters: Last night during therapy I confessed to my husband that I know a lot of the issues stem from me in the past year, that I was sorry, and while it wouldn't be over night I wanted to work on my health so we could be stronger when I was stronger. Paraphrasing, but he told me 'it's too little too late, I've been asking for you to get help with your money obsession for years, I'm too broken to continue this, etc." I asked him straight then, "is this over? please say it's over if it is... please say you want a divorce if that's what you want." To which he replied "It's over. I want a divorce."

We had another 50 minutes in the marriage counseling session, so, we kept talking. I explained I would not fight him if that's what he wanted and would sign the paperwork to make this a no fault divorce, to end it as quickly as possible. We also talked about what changed his mind from possible reconciliation to absolutely done, and he couldn't pin it on anything. Then as we go along talking about our past, confessing to each other we still love each other, and him saying he's just so broken inside, he doesn't know if he can make this relationship go on. Half way through therapy, his "I'm done" turns into "I don't know." Our therapist recognized this and finally spoke up (she just let us have our time to communicate this loss) and asked my husband if he was sure divorce is what he wanted. He said he couldn't go on like this much longer, and wasn't sure what could be done to reconcile the relationship. The three of us agreed that we would meet next week and during the week, explore our feelings to the fullest to help us make an absolute choice. We are going no contact this week, when before, we were touching base every other day.

On the way out we stop to talk in the lobby of the therapist's building. I tell him again, if you want this I won't fight you - I'll give you the divorce. It's not what I want but I love you and want you to be happy. That we don't need the week if he is done. He said he was going to think for a week on what we can do to reconcile, and that we won't call it quits until then. We stopped to hug three times on the way out (he initiated), we joked, we laughed, he gave me a coat his grandmother bought for me, and we left.

In my heart I know this is done, and I'm sure you all will say the same. Part of me is broken, part of me is scared, part of me is relieved because even though this is not what I want it's finally coming to a head. I don't even know what kind of advice I'm asking for anymore. I just want someone to hear me and my sorrow for losing my best friend and my family.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you ever read the book His Needs Her Needs? In it, you'll find that a man's top need is often Admiration (after sex and fun). It sounds like what's happened is that he's come to feel he will never measure up to what you expect in a man (financially), so he has shut down so as not to be disappointed and hurt. Fairly typical, actually. 

If you continue to do therapy, start talking about his good strengths and why you want to be married to him, but also continue to emphasize that as a couple, you would need an agreement that would take away the stress of money. You could do that with a professional financial planner, who could help you set up a long-range plan that allows you both to save but to also have money to enjoy life, and take that stressor out of y'all's lives.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Turnera, I have not read that book but if he decides he wants to try and reconcile after the next session I'll absolutely look this up. I should have admired him more, instead, I was so focused on my job to save money for our future I ignored his needs. I work a job that is hourly, but I can work as many hours as I want with no limit. I work 50 - 60 hours a week as a result. 

I don't want to lose him and a week is not going to change my mind, but I'm afraid it won't change his either. I'll try any kind of therapy or book (within reason obviously) to help us work through these differences. I am not against seeing a financial planner, but if he is too broken for us to even continue therapy, I'm not sure what that will do. All I brought up were good strengths in therapy - that he is handsome, strong, funny and wonderful to be around. That he is not how much he can lift, his credit score, his bank account, or the weight on the scale. I told him that he is just him, and that's who and what I love. I think saying that is what turned his "I'm done" into "I don't know." Still, I'm trying to not be expectant for next week. If this is done, it's done, and I need to accept my powerlessness I suppose.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I'd say you guys had a decent session. 

Best to do what you agreed and wait to talk again next week.

Is he texting or anything in the meantime?


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Hey Tron, no, we are keeping silent. Most I did was call his grand mother, who I am very close to, and message his sister today happy birthday. I hope I don't sound sarcastic or mean when I ask this, but what about our session sounded decent? He stated he wanted a divorce then by the end, stated we would wait out another week and think about things. Of course I want him and this marriage, so I'm waiting it out, but I don't think anything is going to change. I'm mentally preparing for him to tell me he wants a divorce, again.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide... have you looked into Adult Children of Alcoholics or the book codependency no more?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

"I do still love you, so let's see how we feel in a week" is not the same as "I'm filing tomorrow" or "Let's get this over with". Men are also a little more likely than women to re-evaluate and make a turnaround.

You seem to recognize that your Family Of Origin (FOO) issues cloud how you think and even how you treat your H. How much time in therapy have you spent? Because husband or no husband, you need to try to deal with those issues as best you can. 

I suggest you start with the books Blossom Leigh mentioned. Co-Dependency No More is a pretty quick read. I don't know about ACOA, but I have heard good things about it here.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

I have not but I am reading a book on codependency. We both came from broken homes too. My father was an alcoholic and his dad was sexually abusive. We're that easy to read, huh? I'm going to look into this support group tonight. He is hiding in food, toys, and I just found out that his bank account bounced a lot of charges. I love him but I'm not gonna hide anymore. I want to be healthy.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide said:


> I have not but I am reading a book on codependency. We both came from broken homes too. My father was an alcoholic and his dad was sexually abusive. We're that easy to read, huh? I'm going to look into this support group tonight. He is hiding in food, toys, and I just found out that his bank account bounced a lot of charges. I love him but I'm not gonna hide anymore. I want to be healthy.


Yes, easy to read because there are distinct patterns to people who grew up in homes like that. 

I am one of them.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

If I'm co dependent and he's doing what he's doing, should we just end it? Is there no hope for us to be healthy?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

If you are codependent, which I can't diagnose, you will have to change or you will be codependent in your next relationship and enable bad behavior. 

So, what you are really asking is, "will I ever have a good relationship"? 

As far as your husband, you can't do anything to help him except to heal yourself. If he can't change through counseling and hard work, then your marriage won't work and he will not be able to have a healthy relationship.

You each have to work on your own problems for yourselves.

Are you certain you don't want to give up? Seems to me like it's you that doesn't want to think about this any more. Rug sweeping won't help you. Only hard work will help you, no matter what happens with your marriage. 

Is there anyone in your life that you wish you didn't let go? Is there anyone who you believe would be a better match for you? 

There is no time limit whereby you are no longer eligible for divorce. Once obtained, the odds of going back are slim to none. 

Seems like you aren't being truthful with yourself. Why not figure out what you want and do that? 

Does it look so daunting that you just don't think you can do it? 

Still, you will have to work on the codependency. There is no real choice there, or you'll lose the next relationship, too.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> If you are codependent, which I can't diagnose, you will have to change or you will be codependent in your next relationship and enable bad behavior.
> 
> So, what you are really asking is, "will I ever have a good relationship"?
> 
> ...


These are things that I have been thinking about, I don't have any real hard answers. All I know is that, in time and with a lot of healing (separate and together) I'd like my husband back in my life, but I think I am co-dependent. I'm looking into the group and books suggested to me, I think those are great tools to improving myself.

Also, there is no one else I want. Only other guy that 'got away' is 10 years removed from me and several states away.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I really didn't expect you to post answers. I just wanted to give you a perspective I think you were missing. I can't and don't want to tell you what to do. You have to decide for yourself.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide said:


> These are things that I have been thinking about, I don't have any real hard answers. All I know is that, in time and with a lot of healing (separate and together) I'd like my husband back in my life, but I think I am co-dependent. I'm looking into the group and books suggested to me, I think those are great tools to improving myself.
> 
> Also, there is no one else I want. Only other guy that 'got away' is 10 years removed from me and several states away.


Try not to fret this early on. Just dig in and start working. You'll be surprised where it will take you.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Hey All,

it's two days until we decide if we want to divorce or not and my stomach is in knots. I spoke with my marriage counselor last night about what she felt was going on and if he is actually considering us coming back together. She was frank - every other session was a new response or new person, she could not predict his pattern or thoughts at all. This is also coming from a woman that was his personal counselor for years, as well as counseled him through his sex addiction. I'm on a medication for anxiety at the moment and it's hurt my ability to remember short term things, or talk for a long time without my mind suddenly forgetting the conversation (yes I know that is not good, but I'm dealing with one issue in my life at a time here), so I asked her if it would be odd to actually write out what I wanted to say to my husband the night of our decision. She agreed that would be best and I emailed it for her to review, but I was wondering if you guys could give insight as well? I try not to sound begging or promise making in it, so I hope this is alright:


Over the last week I made some hard reflections on myself, you, our relationship and our mental health. Regardless of what we do and where our relationship takes us, nothing will be easy and both routes will be filled with pain, and healing, at the same time. I am broken, just as you are, and need to work on myself extensively through therapy, friends and medication. Because I am also broken, I did not understand the extent of how badly off you were emotionally or how damaged our relationship had become. I thought that because I was better than I was a few years ago, that I was fine. I am so sorry for that, and the role I played in getting us to this point. Losing you has opened my eyes to what I am and who I must become to have a loving and lasting relationship.

I have also reflected hard on our friendship, dating and marriage - our ups and downs, adventures and fights, and all the good and bad that has come to us. I asked myself it was worthwhile to continue to fight for us. I thought about it long and hard, and I have made up my mind that I do not want to give up on us. I do not expect either of us to heal over night, either alone or together, but I hope we will be as loving and patient as possible while we figure ourselves out. When we are healthy and balanced, we're amazing together, I've seen it and lived it with you. I ask that you give us time to heal and evaluate ourselves in a more calm and healthy manner. Both of our emotions have been running high in these sessions, so I would like us to revisit the idea of divorce once we understand ourselves and our issues a little bit better.

You mentioned in last session that we've had several starts and stops to recovery, however, I am hopeful that this is different despite the past. We are older and have more tools to help us build ourselves and our relationship, where in the past we only worked on each other one at a time or did not have the resources. I'm in a department now that allows me the time to get therapy and, regardless of the summer rush, I do not intend to feed into the frenzy of (employer name) this year. I intended to make myself better this year and that is my plan. I am taking medication to help with not just my depression but my anxiety as well. I can not promise you there will not be set backs at times or that we won't have disagreements in the future, but I trust in our abilities to conquer the major issues holding us back from loving ourselves and each other to the fullest. With calm and rational hearts, we can navigate disagreements in a healthy manner.

That said, if you absolutely want a divorce I will not stop you. I want you to be happy and healthy, even if that does not include me in your life. I only ask that you be absolutely certain before you state that you want a divorce. No matter what happens I love you and will always love you. You are not a number and I am so sorry that I ever made you feel like that. You are you, the nerdy and energetic man I feel in love with years ago, and I do not expect you to be anything else.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

If that doesn't get his attention, nothing will. You won't have to feel badly at all about whether or not you tried. Keep working on your healing. He is lucky.

You will be fine, either way.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Why not give it a try? It looks good to me. Put it out there and see what happens.

Are you going to be OK if he calls it quits?


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Honestly Tron I don't know. My stomach hates me and I'm so afraid for tomorrow. I know I have friends to help and I started a CoDA group last night. I have a contact to call if I feel panicy. But I know, in my heart, he will end it tomorrow.

I... made a mistake. Long story short I emailed a woman about advice on this and auto filled the fields with my information, like chrome will do. It put in my info but HIS email address. I panicked, logged into his email and deleted the auto correspondence. He must have noticed I was in there, as a moment later his email password was changed and kicked me out. I wasn't snooping, but now I've ruined the trust further. So... Awesome...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Redtide said:


> I...made a mistake. Long story short I emailed a woman about advice on this and auto filled the fields with my information, like chrome will do. It put in my info but HIS email address. I panicked, logged into his email and deleted the auto correspondence. He must have noticed I was in there, as a moment later his email password was changed and kicked me out. I wasn't snooping, but now I've ruined the trust further. So... Awesome...


Own it. Let him know what happened. Apologize. Don't wait.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

I will. Thank you everyone for hearing me out with this and helping me. Regardless of what happens tomorrow, I feel like I'm in a stronger place to handle it. I also see your stories and know that someday I will be stable and there will be other chances for love.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Redtide, I've know of many people who have divorced, moved on with their lives, and then realized they wanted to be together and got back together later, after some growth and change, and were even better together the second time. It's not a death sentence.

And I've known even more people who THOUGHT they needed a certain person but once they were away from them, the whole world opened up and they kicked themselves for waiting for so long.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Try not to fret this early on. Just dig in and start working. You'll be surprised where it will take you.


QFT

and for you to read again, Redtide.

You are worrying and you don't know what is going to happen just yet. 

One step at a time. Try to do something to take your mind off of it. I know that's a tall order. Many folks exercise to help them. Let things work. You really just started.

Your posts are making _me_ nervous.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

I can't help it! In less than 24 hours I'm gonna know if my marriage is ending in divorce. My whole life is going to change. Any other last minute advice before I go into the marriage counseling session and essentially negotiate with my husband to give us more time?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You've done what you can up to this point. Just have to remember you can and will get through whatever happens. It's very tough to do and I know it. I also know that being in counseling is a very good decision you've made and it will benefit you no matter what you find out. I am routing for you and hoping you will be strong. 

My hope is with you. You will make it one way or the other. Good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Redtide said:


> I can't help it! In less than 24 hours I'm gonna know if my marriage is ending in divorce. My whole life is going to change. Any other last minute advice before I go into the marriage counseling session and essentially negotiate with my husband to give us more time?


Yeah. Don't beg. If nothing else, retain your dignity.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Committed suicide over a credit-score and the possibility of you leaving him?!

Do you want the definitive answer in capitals or bold or both? Here:

*DIVORCE*


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

turnera said:


> Yeah. Don't beg. If nothing else, retain your dignity.


I will not, I intend on letting this end today if it is done. I gave him that chance last session and he didn't take it. Tonight I will be equally calm, patient and accepting of whatever comes.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

How did it go redtide?


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

So... yesterday. It's a lot so I'll make it as short as possible. I told him I love him and I want to work at it, he told me it's too little too late, and that my money obsession has broken him. He still loves me, but is too broken to continue. I say why it is ok for him to have starts and stops to his sex addiction recovery but not for me with this, which he had no answer for. I ask him for time for us to relax and calm down still, as divorce can always happen later, but that I'd think it would be beneficial to discuss at a time where we feel less broken inside. He told me that he does not have anything left in him to fight, but if that's what I need, then he'll agree to it. I tell him no, I only want to do this if it's ok with him, I'm just presenting options to just agreeing to divorce in such broken states of mind. He says alright, but he's not hopeful. We're not talking for 3 weeks (except for a conversation this weekend to settle some apartment matters) to think things through, talk strictly communication issues next session, and see what we think from there.

Each session has been him claiming I do this that or the other thing. He accuses me of saying things and yelling at him, when I do not. It's caused me to question my sanity, even when he brought up that "you accused me of cheating on you, on valentines day!," to which I never did. The therapist asked him if he feels that divorcing me will make his emptiness go away, because there are most likely much bigger issues causing the depression and getting rid of the marriage won't solve all issues for him. He says to this "so what, now I'M crazy?," which shocked our marriage counselor and I. I don't think she doubted me, but she saw first hand now how he spins well meaning words into attacks. I look across the couch and I'm not sure who I see anymore.

Right after this session I had my own personal therapy session. I explain to my therapist how I have attended a CoDA meeting (loved it, highly recommend), and that I worry my husband is a narcissist, as his personality is all about him and co-dependents tend to be drawn to them. We go over all the symptoms and agree that is not him. However, my therapist has met my husband, and asked me to agree or disagree with the following symptoms. These are the ones that apply to him:

Be uncomfortable unless he or she is the center of attention
Dress provocatively and/or exhibit inappropriately seductive or flirtatious behavior
Shift emotions rapidly
Act very dramatically, as though performing before an audience, with exaggerated emotions and expressions, yet appears to lack sincerity
Be overly concerned with physical appearance
Constantly seek reassurance or approval
Be excessively sensitive to criticism or disapproval
Have a low tolerance for frustration and be easily bored by routine, often beginning projects without finishing them or skipping from one event to another
Not think before acting
Make rash decisions
Have difficulty maintaining relationships, often seeming fake or shallow in their dealings with others
Threaten or attempt suicide to get attention

These are the symptoms of histrionic personality disorder, commonly in women, not impossible in men. My therapist is even talking to his therapist about this soon to see if she agrees, as we signed disclosures to relay information between the two counselors. This is not something you recover from - this is a life long issue. I feel like my eyes have been opened. I'm still working in my mind the courage to walk away and be strong, but this helps a lot. Has anyone else ever dated or married someone like this? What happened, how did that pan out? I can't help him with this, I'm just curious.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Damn. You just described my husband.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Cluster B personality types, from what I read, are very difficult to combat for understanding and being treated as equals in conflict. They are like this for the rest of their lives, and most articles and therapists say to run away when you love a cluster B. They aren't evil though. Everything I read describes them as manipulators, surely it's not conscious.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm glad you are in IC. I'm glad you are in CoDA. It looks like your counselor is doing alright for you. What do you think about your counselors? 

I can already read the strength you have gained from this meeting. You will be alright, no matter what happens. 

I have no experience with folks with those symptoms. I'm sure you counselors will figure out what is going on. 

In the end, I'm just glad you are sounding so strong, now.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Both counselors are great, but the marriage counselor doesn't seem to know what to do with my husband's reactions. I do feel stronger. Lonely and scared but stronger. Tomorrow we're meeting to settle some small things for the apartment, then coffee to talk about the relationship. Despite what I know I still want this to work, but I'm trying to not kid myself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Now I know why my IC/MC has kept bringing up divorce.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Redtide said:


> Both counselors are great, but the marriage counselor doesn't seem to know what to do with my husband's reactions. I do feel stronger. Lonely and scared but stronger. Tomorrow we're meeting to settle some small things for the apartment, then coffee to talk about the relationship. Despite what I know I still want this to work,* but I'm trying to not kid myself*.


Exactly why I'm not trying to give you ideas, and take a chance of confusing you more. You have to come to your conclusions on your own, with the help of those counselors who know you, and who know how to handle these things best.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Thanks 2ntnuf. I know it is ultimately my choice and my husband's choice, but it's nice to have a sounding board with other people going through similar issue. Turnera, do your counselors keep bringing up divorce to steer you that direction? I keep being told by both the IC/MC that it's ultimately our choice, but that they see the love in us and feel if my husband is willing to communicate we can get through this. The problem is if he will or not.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide said:


> Thanks 2ntnuf. I know it is ultimately my choice and my husband's choice, but it's nice to have a sounding board with other people going through similar issue. Turnera, do your counselors keep bringing up divorce to steer you that direction? I keep being told by both the IC/MC that it's ultimately our choice, but that they see the love in us and feel if my husband is willing to communicate we can get through this. The problem is if he will or not.


And that really is the bottom line. Do both individuals possess the capacity and willingness to do the work needed to recover.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My IC was my IC before our MC - and 95% of all my problems have always been...my husband. And when he did go for a handful of sessions, and then quit, she was still asking me if I was considering divorce. Even suggesting it. She's given me things to do to make living with him tolerable, but in the end, she's made it clear he won't change much, and she wants me to be willing to consider leaving. If we weren't $200,000 in debt, I'd probably be considering it, but I don't believe in bankruptcy, so I'm trying to get us out of debt before I make any decisions.

The other things keeping me here are that he is very sincere, very honest, very into me. He's just incredibly negative and dysfunctional. Honestly, if the negativity was gone, I'd be fine, but I have to listen to at least 10-30 negative comments from him about everything under the sun, every single day.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Redtide said:


> To clear up some things: We did discuss finances and what we wanted in life before moving out. We decided that we never want kids (and are sticking to that), a smaller house because of the fact that we don't want kids, etc. It is in the last year that he has really been unable to talk about money and I think it is over the fear of losing me. He brings up the argument, along with my comment, and how afraid it made him every time money was mentioned. I'm not sure what to make of this most recent reaction. Maybe he is too immature, maybe it's an "i'll leave you before you can leave me" reaction, I don't know. He has also been on medication and seeing a therapist himself as well as with a marriage counselor. Finally, his credit score was always shaky, hovering at 600, but he was late several payments at the same time which made it drop so badly.
> 
> As to why I married him? I love him. I love that he is full of energy, life and love. He's incredibly attractive and a great friend. The only difference between us is the money issues.


I was going to suggest a Psychiatrist and medication. He is already on something. 

This screams VERY LOUD in my ear. His medication is either WRONG for his condition or he is being dosed WRONG.

The drugs are doing it TOO HIM. Go back to the prescriber, get the doctor to fix the mess that he/she created. Unless he is not taking them as prescribed.

Mania can cause you to overspend. Depression can cause you to commit suicide.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

What would happen if you separated for a short while Turnera, how would he respond to that? I also don't know much about your story, but fight his negativity with being positive. It's hard to be negative when the other person is being nice back. At least that's the way it's always been for me.

As for me, we met for coffee today after getting the needed documentation notarized to get his name off of the lease. We wanted to discuss some loose ends about the apartment, when he is coming for his stuff and what he is taking, etc. We agreed that the 3 week no talk was best after today and we would talk strictly about communication next session, rather than our divorce talk and fighting. We agreed to that before but I asked if I pushed him too hard, to which he said "well that's what the therapist wanted." "Yes, but what do you want?" "I think that's fine, this is not something that needs to be rushed and we should go to our own therapy sessions alone as well." He goes on to say he doesn't hate me but he's mad it took me this long to start working on my money issues, when he's wanted me to go for awhile. I admit my fault in that, but our issues only got bad in the last year and I expressed to him we had many great years before that and can again. I told him I love him and want us... he said "I know, but I don't want to give you false hope. I read your letter to me a few times and I'm a little mad it took this to make you wake up." I tried to explain that I am now seeing the problem, which is co-dependence and love deficient disorder, when I didn't have a name for it before. My money obsession was me filling a whole in me, and before I was just fighting depression but it's much deeper than that. He says he's happy for me and that he means it, and then silence. Before we leave I tell him that I know he doesn't mean to give me false hope and that I understand that, all I ask is that you consider the steps I am taking to be better myself into consideration and be open minded to the idea of reconciliation. He agreed to that, then we left.

Ugh... at least no one can say I didn't try to be as open, loving and calm as possible for this relationship to heal. He has this wall up that I can't break down, that he won't let me near.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Hey, can I get some advice? Our marriage counselor, which is also his personal counselor, met with him yesterday afternoon. I don't know what transpired but I'm trying to think if I should call her and see what her feelings are and if he's actually trying to work on this or if its 100% done. Should I wait out the two weeks for our next session or should I give her a call to get a feel on where we're going?


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Your husband sounds like he could have Borderline Personality Disorder, google it and see if it rings a bell. Did he take the pills for your reaction, your sympathy, to bring you back in his life?

I do think you have reason to be concerned for your finances. Not paying an auto payment because he wants to use the money for something else is not responsible. His negligence will not just effect his credit but as a couple you are liable for his debts too and it will effects your credit as well.

My first husband and I met when we were 13 and 14. We spent a great deal with each others families. We married when we were 17 & 18, naive to the world and we both thought we were madly in love. I became pg 3 months later. At the time he had a job but what I quickly learned was that he was like your husband and had a hard time holding a job, wanted everything brand new but didn't want to pay for it, had no qualms about writing a check for pizza knowing there was no money in the acct, would run up credit at various places that would accept credit at their store and never say a word about these accts until a bill came in the mail. This does cause a great deal of tension, especially for a person who has always paid their bills on time and you want to achieve good credit scores so that you might one day want to buy a home.

We talked and talked about this but it never made a difference. I started teaching piano out of our home to bring in extra income but then he quit his job, just got mad or tired and quit. Thought living off welfare was fine. By this time we had a second child and no money. Just 6 weeks after our second child was born I started cleaning houses, our only income and I was hoping that he would care for our 2 children, nope. I would come home to our infant still in pgs and a very wet diaper, our older daughter had not changed clothes, hair was a mess, she had not bathed, nothing was done in the house so I hired a sitter. The sitters became his target for trying to get into bed with him. This all went from bad to worse i matter of years. He ended up in an affair with an older woman and we divorced.

At no point in his life did he ever change his approach to money, work, honesty. He is now 54 years old, the affair lady left him, his second wife divorced him and he now lives is a house one of our daughter's owns. His credit is terrible and I am not sure if he even cares to this day. He has never owned a home, never had money for anything.

I am not sure what creates a person like this but some people simply do not care and you end up shouldering their mistakes and that is not easy.

If your husband is willing to go to marriage counseling and get himself on the right track as far as finances and relationship is concerned great but boy hold him to it and don't pick up the responsibility for what he should be accountable for.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide said:


> Hey, can I get some advice? Our marriage counselor, which is also his personal counselor, met with him yesterday afternoon. I don't know what transpired but I'm trying to think if I should call her and see what her feelings are and if he's actually trying to work on this or if its 100% done. Should I wait out the two weeks for our next session or should I give her a call to get a feel on where we're going?


I think you should distract yourself with healthy things and wait.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Redtide said:


> Hey, can I get some advice? Our marriage counselor, which is also his personal counselor, met with him yesterday afternoon. I don't know what transpired but I'm trying to think if I should call her and see what her feelings are and if he's actually trying to work on this or if its 100% done. Should I wait out the two weeks for our next session or should I give her a call to get a feel on where we're going?


Legally she cannot share anything that she discusses with him privately although she might be able to give you a feel for things without discussing issues. Years ago my husband and I each were seeing the same counselor separately and doing marriage counseling with her. She did not tell me what they talked about but she did tell me that he could not change and that I would be better off to leave him.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Marriage counselor said there was no change in his talk, he still wants a divorce. They recommend the goodbye process next session. Anyone have insight on that?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The goodbye process? The counselor's way of separating and divorcing as amicably as possible, I suppose. Didn't find anything in a search. 

We usually do the 180 here.

This is the one that used to be suggested here at TAM. The Healing Heart: The 180

There is one closely associated with the above, by Michele Weiner-Davis. A simple search will get you there. 

It's basically a way to separate yourselves and begin new lives.

There are threads here that talk about separation and divorce using the 180.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Sounds good 2ntnuf, that's what I've been trying to do if only in presentation to him as it is not how I feel at all. The goodbye process is what it sounds like to me, saying goodbye to the marriage, but I've been told it's not exactly the end of the relationship or has to be the end of counseling. I don't know what else it could be, with a name like goodbye process.

And honestly now, the more I think about it, I'm bitter. He sits there and disconnects, saying it's too little too late from me to change myself. I've stood by this man with all of his ups and downs in sex addiction, went to S-Anon to support him and find out about the addiction. I read the white book cover to cover. I had to get STD tested TWICE because he cheated and refused to get tested himself. I helped him financially, I paid off his credit card, paid off his IRS audit of 2.5K, paid for majority of the wedding, paid for most of our dates, just so he could start to be on his own feet. I would calm him down when he was angry and hit himself or his head against the wall. I was first by his side for both suicide attempts, one of his only friends to support him after getting kicked out of college when he lied about his grades. My love, friendship, companionship, support - it never once faltered. And yet no - it's too little too late - because I am concerned about money and want to help lift him to a place of financial stability. He sits there and says it's my fault this marriage ended. And you know what? Next marriage counseling session he's hearing all this, because it is NOT just my fault things are the way they are now.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Redtide said:


> Sounds good 2ntnuf, that's what I've been trying to do if only in presentation to him as it is not how I feel at all. The goodbye process is what it sounds like to me, saying goodbye to the marriage, but I've been told it's not exactly the end of the relationship or has to be the end of counseling. I don't know what else it could be, with a name like goodbye process.


Amicable goodbye is my guess. They want to make it as smooth as possible for the both of you, but have someone in particular in mind. Continued counseling would help through the divorce and new life changes. Can't remember. Are there children involved? That could be another reason to keep going. Those are the only reasons I can imagine continuing. There probably are some I'm not aware of.



> And honestly now, the more I think about it, I'm bitter. He sits there and disconnects, saying it's too little too late from me to change myself. I've stood by this man with all of his ups and downs in sex addiction, went to S-Anon to support him and find out about the addiction. I read the white book cover to cover. I had to get STD tested TWICE because he cheated and refused to get tested himself. I helped him financially, I paid off his credit card, paid off his IRS audit of 2.5K, paid for majority of the wedding, paid for most of our dates, just so he could start to be on his own feet. I would calm him down when he was angry and hit himself or his head against the wall. I was first by his side for both suicide attempts, one of his only friends to support him after getting kicked out of college when he lied about his grades. My love, friendship, companionship, support - it never once faltered. And yet no - it's too little too late - because I am concerned about money and want to help lift him to a place of financial stability. He sits there and says it's my fault this marriage ended. And you know what? Next marriage counseling session he's hearing all this, because it is NOT just my fault things are the way they are now.


The first thing that came to mind is codependency. Are you, did you read the book, "Codependent No More", by Melodie Beatty? I thought you said you did, but I could be confused. How is that going and did you talk with your IC about it?

Secondly, good Lord, get out. Sorry for not knowing more, but you are just swimming in his issues. You have to get to know that you are important and are first in your life, or you can't really love anyone. I think you did love him, but it turned into unhealthy support instead. 

As far as you telling him all that, I don't know why you wouldn't or why you haven't to date. I guess more the second thought. 

Looks like you need to work on how to talk about those things that are issues and release tension and get working on either dealing with the issues or getting on with your life, in the future. 

I hope you do well. I feel really bad for you. Time to kick his ass to the curb and get on with finding happiness and life. You put up with this too long and forgot about yourself.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I think that once you are out of this relationship for a while you will realize how unhealthy it was for you and thank your lucky stars.

I second the codependence work. You can't fix him.

But what you can do is fix that part of you that makes you want to...or you will be in this same situation years from now with someone else.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide said:


> Sounds good 2ntnuf, that's what I've been trying to do if only in presentation to him as it is not how I feel at all. The goodbye process is what it sounds like to me, saying goodbye to the marriage, but I've been told it's not exactly the end of the relationship or has to be the end of counseling. I don't know what else it could be, with a name like goodbye process.
> 
> And honestly now, the more I think about it, I'm bitter. He sits there and disconnects, saying it's too little too late from me to change myself. I've stood by this man with all of his ups and downs in *sex addiction*, went to S-Anon to support him and find out about the addiction. I read the white book cover to cover. *I had to get STD tested TWICE because HE CHEATED* and refused to get tested himself. I helped him financially, I paid off his credit card, paid off his IRS audit of 2.5K, paid for majority of the wedding, paid for most of our dates, just so he could start to be on his own feet. I would calm him down when he was angry and *hit himself or his head against the wall*. I was first by his side for both *suicide attempts*, one of his only friends to support him after getting *kicked out of college* when he lied about his grades. My love, friendship, companionship, support - it never once faltered. And yet no - it's too little too late - because I am concerned about money and want to help lift him to a place of financial stability. *He sits there and says it's my fault this marriage ended.* And you know what? *Next marriage counseling session he's hearing all this, because it is NOT just my fault things are the way they are now*.



You would be 100% correct.

He is 100% Blame Shifting.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

OK, the pill thing sounds like a gesture made to get attention and keep you from scolding him for his bad behavior.

Can it be fixed? Not if he doesn't 'grow up' and get a little more secure with himself. He sounds like he is in competition with himself, and he is coming in second place.


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## unbe (Dec 20, 2013)

WhyMe66 said:


> OK, the pill thing sounds like a gesture made to get attention and keep you from scolding him for his bad behavior.
> 
> Can it be fixed? Not if he doesn't 'grow up' and get a little more secure with himself. He sounds like he is in competition with himself, and he is coming in second place.


Jezzz that describes me to a T.

How annoying must it be for a healthy women to be with someone like that/me?


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

Awareness/knowing is half the battle...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Redtide said:


> Sounds good 2ntnuf, that's what I've been trying to do if only in presentation to him as it is not how I feel at all. The goodbye process is what it sounds like to me, saying goodbye to the marriage, but I've been told it's not exactly the end of the relationship or has to be the end of counseling. I don't know what else it could be, with a name like goodbye process.
> 
> And honestly now, the more I think about it, I'm bitter. He sits there and disconnects, saying it's too little too late from me to change myself. I've stood by this man with all of his ups and downs in sex addiction, went to S-Anon to support him and find out about the addiction. I read the white book cover to cover. I had to get STD tested TWICE because he cheated and refused to get tested himself. I helped him financially, I paid off his credit card, paid off his IRS audit of 2.5K, paid for majority of the wedding, paid for most of our dates, just so he could start to be on his own feet. I would calm him down when he was angry and hit himself or his head against the wall. I was first by his side for both suicide attempts, one of his only friends to support him after getting kicked out of college when he lied about his grades. My love, friendship, companionship, support - it never once faltered. And yet no - it's too little too late - because I am concerned about money and want to help lift him to a place of financial stability. He sits there and says it's my fault this marriage ended. And you know what? Next marriage counseling session he's hearing all this, because it is NOT just my fault things are the way they are now.


So basically, you were a KISA and a Enabler.

Small wonder you ended up getting shafted.

That's what Users do to Givers.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbe said:


> Jezzz that describes me to a T.
> 
> How annoying must it be for a healthy women to be with someone like that/me?


Very.

And women grow to despise men like you. Even if they don't intend to.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

turnera said:


> So basically, you were a KISA and a Enabler.
> 
> Small wonder you ended up getting shafted.
> 
> That's what Users do to Givers.


Forgive me but I'm still new at all this, what does KISA mean? And if I enabled I didn't mean to, I meant to support his recovery. I think I helped him get through his sex addiction still, but my issues are too little too late...


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Knight in Shining Armor. 

You may call it supportive behavior, but my version of supportive is just being there to "support" the person that is going to TAKE the steps all by him/herself. 

By helping constantly, going over & above, giving of yourself all the time, you unknowingly take away the ability for him to LEARN to fix his own darn problems. So, when you save him, he doesn't learn AND he knows you'll always fix things, so why would he even try? 

Then you get frustrated that he doesn't take responsibility. He's never been held accountable for owning his sheet.

Usually the only language understood in such a situation is that you are out the door if nothing changes. What kinds of consequences did he face when he hurt you and the relationship? Any?


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

He lost some friends, is over eating and depressed but beyond that I don't know. I hear (I don't ask) that he's not discussing this issue with anyone. And it's funny you say that - he use to call me his knight in shining armor for all the times I saved him.

I moved the next marriage counseling session to Tuesday rather than 4/6, I need to know if he's even thinking about reconciliation as his actions and words differ at times. If he says he's done again I need out. I can't sleep or function well at all. I cry at work all day and thank god it's at a cubicle where no one can see me. I go through the motions of what I once loved. And the worst part is I DO want to save this still. I don't know where the line is between me being a codependent and me being a wife that wants to try all options before this ends.

Thank you everyone for everything. Having a place to vent has helped me so much, and helped me see it's not all me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Your counselor will help you determine whether it's codependency or something else. I had a hard time figuring it out for myself. I seemed to be codependent at the time. 

It hurts to be left behind. It's not fun. I know what that feels like. Glad you could move your appointment. It's really tough. Read the 180 and do the work involved. It will help. So will the counseling. I'm sorry you are hurting.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You are mourning the relationship. I understand completely, I cried for 4-5 months every, single night after I separated/divorced from my first husband. It's important that you stay active doing things you enjoy, and also give yourself time to grieve and heal.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Satya said:


> You are mourning the relationship. I understand completely, I cried for 4-5 months every, single night after I separated/divorced from my first husband. It's important that you stay active doing things you enjoy, and also give yourself time to grieve and heal.


I'm so glad you got through it alright. Do you mind if I ask how long you were together? For a 15 year relationship, I worry how long that grieving will be for me.

Last night he got the tattoo I was never fond of him getting. I mainly wanted to be sure we could afford such an expense, but without him paying rent, he has done it no problem I guess. I texted him to let him know I was happy for him (I am, even if I am a bit hurt) and that I'd love to see a picture. He never responded.

Tuesday can not come fast enough. I don't want to deal with this any longer, I want to fully accept it's done and begin the healing process, but we deserve to have that final discussion face to face.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

New developments in the never ending story:

So tonight's therapy was odd, I don't even know where to begin. He stated again he feels done and wants a divorce, that he is worried the things I'm doing to get better will fall apart and that we've been through this cycle before. He seems to feel the need to save me when I get depressed, and my money comment from last year still gives him nightmares. I decided to do this marriage counseling session a bit different and see how he reacts to being more blunt and saying it's OK if he wants a divorce, even if I don't want it. When he said "I feel like I need to save you," meaning from me being depressed or anxious about money sometimes, I responded with "why? Then don't save me. We can save ourselves." He was left speechless at that. 

I also posed different ideas on how to save the marriage, and each one he shot down, saying it will prolong the inevitable. To which I respond "ok, then let's get a divorce. Have you looked up how to get papers? When do you want to do this? I'll sign them, it's fine, I want you to be happy." To which he stated he didn't, and hasn't started any of that yet. He then sort of agrees to a marriage sabbatical if it means that I'll be happy. I say no, what makes you happy? Do you have any hope for this? Again, he says no, and I ask him point blank "if you think that extending this makes it easier for me, then you're wrong. I'm already hurt. Keep going here with me if you want to work on it, if you don't then there is no point to going on like this. Do you want a divorce?" "yes" "Then why are you agreeing to coming here still, why aren't you getting the paperwork? I'll sign a no fault divorce." No response. It goes on like that for a lot of it. I'm as loving and calm as possible when I say these things, I'm not being forceful, I'm just trying to get him to understand we're in a holding pattern.

In the end of it all he decides to go to another counseling session and that we can text each other as we miss talking, but he 'isn't going to change his mind' about divorce. I tell him if he isn't going to change his mind then we don't need to text, but he 'does miss talking to me because we've been best friends for 15 years." If you won't change your mind, why still go to counseling? I'm so confused about it. I feel like he wants me to want a divorce before he actually says OK and gets the paperwork. Or maybe he doesn't wanna pay for it. In any case, I'm getting more and more frustrated. The 180 was suggested here and I tried that last night by saying a divorce is alright, not crying, etc. Does he think he will soften the blow, make me file, think I'll still be his friend after all of this? I'm not going back to BFF status after this is all said and done.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Can't figure out what is going on, but prolonging what he considers as the inevitable doesn't add up. It's like he is hiding something.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Do you think he gets off on you chasing him?

Sort of a "any attention is good attention, even if it's bad".


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

I wonder the same but I think that my reaction the other night shocked him, he doesn't know what to do with it


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Redtide said:


> I wonder the same but I think that my reaction the other night shocked him, he doesn't know what to do with it


Apparently. :smile2:

Nice job!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Redtide said:


> Do you mind if I ask how long you were together? For a 15 year relationship, I worry how long that grieving will be for me.


We were married for about 8 years, together for a total of 14. Even though I stopped crying after those 4-5 months, I still had a lot of tether to my old life for a while after. I have come to accept that it was a past life that did have some good memories. I prefered to hold onto those.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Tron said:


> Apparently. :smile2:
> 
> Nice job!


Yeah and it seems the 180 would do wonders. 

I think I'd have an attorney at the ready, to file and serve divorce papers and whatever else he can help you with. I hope you did or do it soon. Wouldn't hurt to at least talk with one seriously about what you stand to gain or lose and soforth.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Redtide said:


> New developments in the never ending story:
> 
> So tonight's therapy was odd, I don't even know where to begin. He stated again he feels done and wants a divorce, that he is worried the things I'm doing to get better will fall apart and that we've been through this cycle before. He seems to feel the need to save me when I get depressed, and my money comment from last year still gives him nightmares. I decided to do this marriage counseling session a bit different and see how he reacts to being more blunt and saying it's OK if he wants a divorce, even if I don't want it. When he said "I feel like I need to save you," meaning from me being depressed or anxious about money sometimes, I responded with "why? Then don't save me. We can save ourselves." He was left speechless at that.
> 
> ...


Call his bluff.

You file.

And set him free.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

UPDATE: We agreed to a divorce last night, much to my dismay. The last thing I want to do is lose my best friend, but we both agreed last night we are too broken (him bipolar and HPD, me co-dependent by trying to take care of his disorder over the years) to be together right now. We will divorce, and work on ourselves. If a friendship or relationship develops down the line that would be great, and he's not against us trying again, but I don't want to hold my breath. I just want him to be happy and healthy. Thank you for your kind words everyone.

Now I need to find a way to get over the guilt of hurting him. I was hurt too, but I hurt him so much as well. I'm reading articles and watching youtube videos on forgiveness, releasing guilt, loving yourself, but it's so hard. I lost my best friend and I need to accept that I'll never have him back.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Have you considered a attending divorce support group or CODA meeting?

Although we are pretty good here.


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## Redtide (Feb 27, 2016)

Ive been going to CoDA weekly but its not helping in this moment. He's gone, ive pushed away my best friend and I didnt mean to


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Try and forgive yourself. 

This wasn't just you. Your H has some serious issues and has just as much culpability in the failure of the marriage.

The reasons you claim he is leaving you for just don't seem to add up.

So what are you going to do for you today?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's not your fault that he left. You could not make up his mind to do anything. You've tried before. This isn't your fault.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I am relieved for you.... over time you will begin to understand what a blessing this is. Right now I know you are hurting, but I promise in time your perspective of the gift this is will emerge.


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