# 3 Months into Reconciliation



## Garm

I posted here a couple of months ago. Here is a summary of what I am going through: 
I discovered my wife was having an EA/PA affair nearly 5 years ago with a married man who has 2 kids. It was going on for 2 months. She supposedly ended the affair and we reconciled and had 2 kids together. Our kids are now 1 and 3 years old. 

Three months ago I discovered she was having an affair with the same guy again. This time it supposedly went on for 6 months.

Since that time I have taken a lot of the advice given here. We wrote a no contact letter. I have exposed the affair to all of our family. We both have gotten tested for STD's. I got DNA tests for both kids and they are mine. I talked to the other man's wife a few times on the phone. She is going to individual counseling.

I spoke to the other man's wife and learned more about the affair. My wife has been messing around with this guy on and off for 4 and a half years, and even while she was pregnant with our first child. The other man had an affair with another woman during this time as well. 

I understand that a cheater is supposed to show remorse and regret in order to properly reconcile. I am very worried because my wife is not remorseful. She has only said a couple of times that she was sorry she hurt me. When I get upset she gets angry and defensive. We have had several good days when she showed affection. 

We have had some talks and she told me that she has completely changed since we were married 11 years ago while I have stayed the same. She has told me several times that she will just be miserable if we stay married. She seems to be on the fence about our marriage. She is telling me that she does not love me and that is the reason she cheated. She says she is trying to love me again so we can give our kids a good home. She says she is unhappy. She says she is just going to have to sacrifice her happiness so we don't break up our family. She is worried that she will be miserable as long as we are married. 

She insists that she has no contact with the other man. I have been checking on her. Now she is getting angry because she feels trapped and feels like I am controlling her every move. I really want our marriage to work out because our kids deserve a good family. It would be terrible if she ends up marrying this guy who I have considered my enemy for nearly 5 years. I can't imagine my enemy becoming a step father to my kids. 

She says she needs time to work out her feelings. She is not giving me what I need to heal because she says she does not have those feelings for me. Am I just expecting too much from her since it has only been 3 months since Dday?


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## Jasel

If she's not showing remorse and is saying that she doesn't want to be married, I don't know if I'd even call that a reconcilliation. Whether remorse is required in a true reconcilliation is debatable but both parties being willing to work on the marriage I think is pretty much a requirement.

Can I ask what your reasons are for trying to R?


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## walkonmars

She not giving you what you need because 1) she doesn't want to - it's too taxing for her b/c she HAS changed into a more selfish person. 2) she finds you repulsive for reasons we told you about on your first post.

What she would really like is an open marriage. One where she gets to play all she wants and you can do whatever, as long as you mostly leave her alone and tend to the kids when a baby sitter is needed. 

I know this sounds harsh and cold..... but SHE is harsh and cold. It's a fact. 

Do you want an open marriage? She can lead her hedonistic life for the next 5 - 15 yrs and maybe find you desirable again. Or in 15 yrs when the last of the kids is out of the house you can both separate. You know that she'd leave you in a heartbeat if it weren't for the kids. 

At any rate, no more kids with her. And if I were in your shoes, I'd be so gone.


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## toonaive

You need to be very quietly circling the wagons. Protect yourself and your children. Unfortunately your wife is a serial cheater. From my experience, she will promise everything to stabilize that is happening. After a while, she will do it again. Ask yourself how many times do you want to go through this?


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## NatureDave

> We have had some talks and she told me that she has completely changed since we were married 11 years ago while I have stayed the same. She has told me several times that she will just be miserable if we stay married. She seems to be on the fence about our marriage. She is telling me that she does not love me and that is the reason she cheated. She says she is trying to love me again so we can give our kids a good home. She says she is unhappy. She says she is just going to have to sacrifice her happiness so we don't break up our family. She is worried that she will be miserable as long as we are married.


Believe this...it is exactly how she feels. She will never feel differently unless she puts 100% effort into building a new, better marriage, which she clearly is not prepared to do.

Is this the kind of marriage YOU want?


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## Amplexor

This is not reconciliation. It is blame shifting, rug sweeping and rationalization. She is not there for you, she is there for herself. While you want to protect your kids from OM what kind of example are you setting. A marriage with no trust, commitment or respect. This will very likely do more damage to your kids than you think. See a lawyer and hand her the papers. She is not interested in your needs nor the marriage. You need to move on.


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## mahike

She is not being honest with you. You are the fall back guy and she is only claiming to R because she was caught. 

It does not sound like she thinks you will leave her. I would serve her D papers and then go to MC. Tell her if the MC does not work you are going through with the D. 

I am betting you are being to Beta. You need to pull your Alpha out and be tough.


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## Woodchuck

Buy a bullwhip...Go to a dog food factory, and rent a dead horse...Flog the heII out of that dead horse with your bullwhip....

When you collapse from sheer exhaustion and fatigue, ask yourself if whipping a dead horse has helped your marriage.....

Or save yourself some money, and blood spatter, and just file for DIVORCE!!!!!

You have already put in your time flogging a dead creature (your marriage)....Now is the time to salvage a few scraps of your self respect....Do a complete 180, go dark on her, get your finances in order, and KICK HER TO THE CURB.........IT IS OVER....

good luck
the woodchuck


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## jnj express

You can't force her into anything--if she isn't that person you married 11 yrs ago---face the facts and move on

To stay for the kids, is pointless--You should have never had kids with her in the 1st place, with her just recently coming out of an A--

--everything in your household is full of tension and misery now---it ain't gonna get better, the kids need a decent/happy environment/living conditions---YOU AND YOUR WIFE ARE NOT PROVIDING THAT, NO MATTER WHAT YOU WISHFULLY THINK she misses the man she loves---which sadly for you, IS NOT YOU

You know the answer to this situation----start working on it---in case you don't get my drift---ITS TIME TO FILE


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## workindad

Op you are not in R with your wife. Not at all. 

I would get her off the fence and on the curb. 

You are being way to nice and look what that has gotten you already. A serial cheating wife. Is he the only OM? Maybe yes maybe no
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doubletrouble

I'm pro-R but this one really stinks.


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## Gabriel

You say three months of R, but you are the only one in R. She isn't. All that's happened is three months of TIME.

Read your initial post 5 more times. You'll see just how clear it is that she wants out. My guess? She wants out because she is completely addicted to the OM. 

So you effectively cut him out, sort of. She resents you. Says you are controlling. Her affair with him went on for so long that it's going to be near impossible for her to stay away from him forever. Realize what you have here. The market is great for single dads


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## Almostrecovered

well you presented consequence and she doesn't show remorse

therefore the consequence have no effect on her and she is a very selfish and damaged person

putting aside your need to heal from this and the inability to have a successful R without her remorse, the likelihood she will cheat again is sky high

Amp and everyone else is correct, time to file and move on


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## TDSC60

If you were not her husband and you found out all the crap she has been doing to her husband for the last 5 years - would you consider marrying her?

You never had a marriage. She has been cheating from the start. 

I hate to bring this up, but, are you sure the children are yours?

DNA the kids. File for divorce.


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## LostViking

She's still in the affair. Bet you bottom dollar. That's why she has no conscience.


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## Almostrecovered

TDSC60 said:


> I hate to bring this up, but, are you sure the children are yours?
> 
> DNA the kids. File for divorce.



maybe you should reread the 1st post




Garm said:


> I got DNA tests for both kids and they are mine.


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## BK23

...........


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## LostCPA

You are obviously not in recovery. You are trying to save this marriage, but she has no interest. She never ended and restarted this affair, she is probably still in it and has been all along. You have been sharing your wife with OM for most of your marriage. You are the provider while he is the lover and friend.

Her past behavior shows you all you need to know about the future. If you stay with her you are accepting an open marriage. She either can't change or doesn't want to. Either way, kick her to the curb and protect your children from this skewed view of marriage that they are seeing.


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## Garm

I understand why so many of you say I should divorce. I have spoken to 3 attorneys with free consultations. I feel like I am not ready for divorce. I would lose access to my kids every day. I would no longer have the ability to be a stay at home dad. My wife would most likely marry her other man who is of a different race and has two teenage kids. The kids would be bullied at school because of their mother's choices. My enemy would take over my role as a father half the time. I am pretty sure this was almost an exit affair because she was consulting with a tarot card reader about staying with me or going with the other man. 

I have considered the pros and cons of divorce and reconciling, and it seems like divorce is worse in my situation. I just don't understand how my wife is not recommitting to our marriage when we have these toddlers. She came from a perfect family where she never heard her parents argue, while I came from a family where my mother and father both cheated on each other. I tried to explain to her the devastation I felt when my parents cheated and then divorced when I was 14. She says it might be better for the kids if she is happy and divorced than if she is unhappily married to me.


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## BK23

Garm said:


> I understand why so many of you say I should divorce. I have spoken to 3 attorneys with free consultations. I feel like I am not ready for divorce. I would lose access to my kids every day. I would no longer have the ability to be a stay at home dad. My wife would most likely marry her other man who is of a different race and has two teenage kids. The kids would be bullied at school because of their mother's choices. My enemy would take over my role as a father half the time. I am pretty sure this was almost an exit affair because she was consulting with a tarot card reader about staying with me or going with the other man.
> 
> I have considered the pros and cons of divorce and reconciling, and it seems like divorce is worse in my situation. I just don't understand how my wife is not recommitting to our marriage when we have these toddlers. She came from a perfect family where she never heard her parents argue, while I came from a family where my mother and father both cheated on each other. I tried to explain to her the devastation I felt when my parents cheated and then divorced when I was 14. She says it might be better for the kids if she is happy and divorced than if she is unhappily married to me.


Why does it matter that OM is a different race?


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## LostCPA

Garm said:


> I understand why so many of you say I should divorce. I have spoken to 3 attorneys with free consultations. I feel like I am not ready for divorce. I would lose access to my kids every day. I would no longer have the ability to be a stay at home dad. My wife would most likely marry her other man who is of a different race and has two teenage kids. The kids would be bullied at school because of their mother's choices. My enemy would take over my role as a father half the time. I am pretty sure this was almost an exit affair because she was consulting with a tarot card reader about staying with me or going with the other man.
> 
> I have considered the pros and cons of divorce and reconciling, and it seems like divorce is worse in my situation. I just don't understand how my wife is not recommitting to our marriage when we have these toddlers. She came from a perfect family where she never heard her parents argue, while I came from a family where my mother and father both cheated on each other. I tried to explain to her the devastation I felt when my parents cheated and then divorced when I was 14. She says it might be better for the kids if she is happy and divorced than if she is unhappily married to me.



I'll repeat the old Dr Phil line I used in another post. "Children would rather come from a broken home than live in one." Having your children grow up watching your WW disrespect you and your marriage is teaching them life lessons that will cause them harm years down the road.


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## asia

Your wife is actually doing you a favor. She seems to be trying to be honest about her feelings. While you may not agree with them and want the marriage, she no longer feels the same. Sucks she had to cheat. It hurts very bad. And to top off she still doesn't want the marriage when you as the BS are willing, hurts even more. I am sorry you are dealing with this. It may not be what you want to hear, but she is stating the obvious.


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## Almostrecovered

youngest is 1?

so that's at least 17 years of misery, quite the sacrifice


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## walkonmars

You don't want to divorce - and she wouldn't mind. However, she will stay with you and by tacit agreement she will continue to see the OM while you can pretend that all is well in "R". 

Friend, that's an open marriage. 

A one-sided open marriage. That's the best you're going to get. DADT. 

As many here say, the one who doesn't mind leaving the marriage is the one who holds the cards. The one who clings to the marriage at all costs has no power. NONE. 

She holds the cards. Whatcha gonna do Red Ryder?


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## bryanp

Good God man,

How much humiliation and disrespect are you willing to endure? You know down deep that she will continue the affair one way or another. She has so little respect for you that she continued to have sex with this man while pregnant with your child. How much more humiliation can there be than this? She has absolutely no respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## badmemory

Allow me to translate what your wife is telling you:

_"Yes I cheated, sorry about that but I just don't love you. So stop expecting me to act remorseful when I'm not. I'm not going to do that all acting sorrowful dog and pony show for you. Deal with it. 

But I'll tell you what. Just because of the kids, I'll do you a favor and stay with you. I don't really want to but I'll make that sacrifice. As long as you just get over this, leave me alone, and not worry about who else I'm f**king"._

I'm not trying to be harsh to you OP, but you need to go look at yourself in the mirror and ask what kind of husband, and more importantly, what kind of man - would accept this total disrespect.


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## Chris989

She is still having an affair. No question at all.

She is acting exactly like we have seen on here many, many times before and I have personal experience of this with my ex wife.

Until it is stopped, you cannot move forward. She thinks you are stopping her being with the OM. You are the problem to her, not the affair.

She is still in the affair.


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## lifeistooshort

Her respect for you is near zero; she has all but told you to f$ck yourself and you're still not ready to divorce because you couldn't continue to be a sahd? Seriously? If you were a woman you'd be told to get a job and throw him out. Geez, chase and scream all you want but in the end you have two choices: get a job and end this, at which point she might realize what she's going to lose, or continue to be a sahd and know she's going to f$ck other men. The choice is yours; right now she knows the power is hers, and that makes you look very weak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

What can she do to make you divorce her ?


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## walkonmars

Garm said:


> ... *I would lose access to my kids every day. I would no longer have the ability to be a stay at home dad.* My wife would most likely marry her other man who is of a different race and has two teenage kids. The kids would be bullied at school because of their mother's choices. My enemy would take over my role as a father half the time. ....


So your lawyer told you that as a sahd would NOT have custodial parent status of your children? 

You would rather raise your children watching their mother disrespect the father openly and blatantly - and maybe even bear another man's child? How is that better?

You want your kids to believe that the way your marriage works is the way all relationships should work? 

With one partner taking full advantage of the other? That respect, integrity, and honor are not things that belong in a relationship? 

You think your kids will be bullied because they are from a broken home and their mother is married to someone else?

It's far more likely they'll be bulled because their old-man is blind and their mother is so disrespectful of the family. That is FAR more likely my friend. 
----

If you truly feel this way then you should hand over the responsibility of your kids moral development to someone else.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Garm, this is not going to get any better. She is going to continue to cheat right under her nose. Soon she will move the AP partner in and tell you to sleep on the couch. Maybe tell you to make them some drinks. What are you going to do then? Mope? 

Stop this illness now. For you and your children's sake. Serve her ASAP. Show her consequences. Human beings deserve better than how she treats you.


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## Garm

I just accused her of continuing the affair. She told me that she is definitely not, and that is why she is acting so confused and frustrated. She is frustrated that she cannot contact the other man. The only opportunity she has to see the OM is when she drives to work 2 days a week, although they don't work together. I am going to have her call me from her work phone when she goes there.


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## Chris989

Garm said:


> I just accused her of continuing the affair. She told me that she is definitely not, and that is why she is acting so confused and frustrated. She is frustrated that she cannot contact the other man. The only opportunity she has to see the OM is when she drives to work 2 days a week. I am going to have her call me from her work phone when she goes there.


Oh come on, Garm. Do you really believe she will tell you the truth?

The only evidence you have is that she lies. She lies and then lies some more, then, when she is done lying, she lies.

Get evidence. Use a keylogger, a VAR, get her phone. Have her followed.


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## badmemory

Garm said:


> I just accused her of continuing the affair. She told me that she is definitely not, and that is why she is acting so confused and frustrated. She is frustrated that she cannot contact the other man. The only opportunity she has to see the OM is when she drives to work 2 days a week, although they don't work together. I am going to have her call me from her work phone when she goes there.


:slap:


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## vi_bride04

Chris989 said:


> Oh come on, Garm. Do you really believe she will tell you the truth?
> 
> The only evidence you have is that she lies. She lies and then lies some more, then, when she is done lying, she lies.
> 
> Get evidence. Use a keylogger, a VAR, get her phone. Have her followed.


:iagree:

Transparency into her electronic life - do you have that??? Passwords, FB access, email, cell phone logs.......???

I agree with the others that she is still in the affair. Have seen it soooo many times on TAM and IRL.


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## Garm

I will not accept her to continue the affair. She knows that I will never accept an open marriage. I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


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## Davelli0331

Garm said:


> I just accused her of continuing the affair. She told me that she is definitely not, and that is why she is acting so confused and frustrated. *She is frustrated that she cannot contact the other man. The only opportunity she has to see the OM is when she drives to work 2 days a week, although they don't work together.* I am going to have her call me from her work phone when she goes there.


Seriously? That right there doesn't tell you that she's still in love with him?

You don't want to divorce because you don't want to give up being a stay at home dad? Like, that's your reason? It's worth having your W openly and blatantly being with this dude just so you don't have to go get a job? Seriously? I sort of get not wanting to give up seeing your kids all the time, but the fact that you threw SAHD in there means it's just as important to you. What, is she your sugar momma or something?

You need a MAJOR shift in your POV and sense of self before you will make any kind of headway in this. I sense a severe lack of self-respect here.


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## Davelli0331

Garm said:


> I will not accept her to continue the affair. She knows that I will never accept an open marriage. I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


We're not trying to be insulting, I promise. You're just exuding some extreme "head in the sand" syndrome here, and we're trying to pull you out.


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## Garm

Yes I do have access to her facebook, email, and phone. I am just worried that she has a secret email account or calls the guy from a work phone. She has a work laptop, so I don't think I can install spyware on that.


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## turnera

Garm, you're getting the exact same advice we give every man who tries to grab onto that last leaf hanging from the last root of the tree trunk hanging over the cliff - it won't work!

Your wife is more flagrant than most in telling you SHE WANTS THE OTHER MAN. Yet you pretend to yourself you can somehow magically make her want you again.

How about this: tell her she can have him, as long as the kids stay with you and she pays you child support? Tell her you're willing to sign her over to him if she agrees to that.


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## KanDo

Garm said:


> I just accused her of continuing the affair. She told me that she is definitely not, and that is why she is acting so confused and frustrated. She is frustrated that she cannot contact the other man. The only opportunity she has to see the OM is when she drives to work 2 days a week, although they don't work together. I am going to have her call me from her work phone when she goes there.


And of course we believe this because she has a history of always being honest and truthful with you...NOT!

Look. We all know how hard it is to face the dissolution of a family particularly when there are you children at home. However, most of what you have said is nonsense.

1) As the SAHD you are at an even greater likelihood of becoming the custodial parent, receiving child and spousal support. Did you actually speak to an attorney and explain the facts?

2)As noted above, you are not doing any favors to your children by staying in a broken relationship

3) You are actually decreasing any chance of a R by the way you are responding to this issue. You are acting like a doormat. You wife has no respect for you and your actions confirm that she is justified in not respecting you. Hell uo don't respect yourself!

4) The simple act of filing may snap you wife's head back far enough to clear her thinking on the affair.

The amazing thing is, you best chance for happiness, either in R or D, lies along the exact same path.
a) begin a 180
b) work on yourself. Physically, appearance, socially
c) File for divorce. Telling her you love her and wish the best for her; but, you and the family will be just fine without her.
d) Find your balls and man-up!


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## walkonmars

Garm said:


> I will not accept her to continue the affair. She knows that I will never accept an open marriage. I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


Garm, she ALSO knows your stance on divorce and separation. So that fact that you say _I will not accept her to continue the affair._ really is meaningless because there will be no consequences correct? 

As for being insulted - my apology if you found any/all of my posts insulting. What I find insulting is your wife's attitude toward your marriage.


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## LostCPA

Garm said:


> I will not accept her to continue the affair. She knows that I will never accept an open marriage. I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


You ARE accepting an open marriage. She also knows that she can control you and do whatever she wants becasue you will not do anythign to stop her.

All she has to do is continue to lie and tell you what you want to hear about how she has ended this affair and you will let her string you along a little further.

I can only speak from my experience, but the only thing that finally shook my WW was being served with divorce papers. That's when she realized that I wouldn't be her doormat anymore. How about it, aren't you tired of her trampling your dignity and disrespecting you and your kids?


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## badmemory

Garm said:


> I will not accept her to continue the affair. She knows that I will never accept an open marriage. I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


Garm,

Let's give the benefit of the doubt to your wife and say she has stopped the A. That's really not the issue here.

The issue is that she is acting so unremorseful and disrespectful to you. That all but guarantees you will lead a miserable existence with her and she will continue the A with him or find someone else down the road. She is looking for an exit affair and eventually she'll succeed.


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## Garm

turnera said:


> How about this: tell her she can have him, as long as the kids stay with you and she pays you child support? Tell her you're willing to sign her over to him if she agrees to that.


I did tell her this. She told me that would never happen. If we divorce it is going to be a custody battle. 

I did not act like a doormat. I had her sleep in another room for 2 months on an uncomfortable bed.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Garm said:


> Yes I do have access to her facebook, email, and phone. I am just worried that she has a secret email account or calls the guy from a work phone. She has a work laptop, so I don't think I can install spyware on that.


You cannot spend your life worrying about this stuff. It will eat you alive and destroy your health. If she wants to cheat she will find a way. You cannot make her chose you. She has to do that.


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## Chaparral

Garm said:


> I understand why so many of you say I should divorce. I have spoken to 3 attorneys with free consultations. I feel like I am not ready for divorce. I would lose access to my kids every day. I would no longer have the ability to be a stay at home dad. My wife would most likely marry her other man who is of a different race and has two teenage kids. The kids would be bullied at school because of their mother's choices. My enemy would take over my role as a father half the time. I am pretty sure this was almost an exit affair because she was consulting with a tarot card reader about staying with me or going with the other man.
> 
> I have considered the pros and cons of divorce and reconciling, and it seems like divorce is worse in my situation. I just don't understand how my wife is not recommitting to our marriage when we have these toddlers. She came from a perfect family where she never heard her parents argue, while I came from a family where my mother and father both cheated on each other. I tried to explain to her the devastation I felt when my parents cheated and then divorced when I was 14. She says it might be better for the kids if she is happy and divorced than if she is unhappily married to me.


Does her parents know all this, what do they think?


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## badmemory

Garm said:


> I did not act like a doormat. I had her sleep in another room for 2 months on an uncomfortable bed.


Bro, compared to receiving the consequences she should have; that's like getting community service for armed bank robbery.


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## Chaparral

Have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer? It will tell you why she no longer respects you and is attracted to the OM. There is a link to one supplier below in my signature.


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## Dad&Hubby

Garm said:


> I will not accept her to continue the affair. She knows that I will never accept an open marriage. I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


Yes....Yes you will. You have for how long. What's going to change.

I hate to tell you this but you're wife has such little respect for you she's going to eventually start INTENTIONALLY seeing how much turmoil she can put you through. Just to see what you'll take. If she's not already doing this. It'll become a game to her.

You're the private getting slapped in the face and responding with "thank you sir, may I have another."


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## Garm

LostCPA said:


> You ARE accepting an open marriage. She also knows that she can control you and do whatever she wants becasue you will not do anythign to stop her.
> 
> All she has to do is continue to lie and tell you what you want to hear about how she has ended this affair and you will let her string you along a little further.
> 
> I can only speak from my experience, but the only thing that finally shook my WW was being served with divorce papers. That's when she realized that I wouldn't be her doormat anymore. How about it, aren't you tired of her trampling your dignity and disrespecting you and your kids?


She did have consequences. I did tell her that I talked to attorneys and I have one picked out to hire. She had some humiliating discussions with our family members. The other man's wife has been texting and calling harassing her. She took an STD and DNA test. I have insisted that she stop going out where she might run into the other man in our neighborhood. She has been attending counseling sessions that cost around $130 a month. She slept on a futon for 2 months. She knows that I will be watching her closely.


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## badmemory

Garm said:


> I don't appreciate all of the insults I'm getting here.


Garm, this is just tough love. I don't think anyone here wants to do anything but help you and see a positive outcome for you. Sometimes OP's need a 2x4 to the head to get them to face reality. We can all see what's coming and for some of us, it's frustrating to witness. But in the end it's your life and your decision. 

I do respect that you're hanging in here and haven't bailed yet. I know that isn't easy.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Garm, when is the last time she told you she loved you more than anything in the world? And showed you she loved you..


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## Garm

chapparal said:


> Have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer? It will tell you why she no longer respects you and is attracted to the OM. There is a link to one supplier below in my signature.


Yes. I have been lifting weights since Dday. I am in good physical shape. I think it is totally unfair that I have to compete with other men for my wife who took vows with me.


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## LostCPA

Garm said:


> She did have consequences. I did tell her that I talked to attorneys and I have one picked out to hire. She had some humiliating discussions with our family members. The other man's wife has been texting and calling harassing her. She took an STD and DNA test. I have insisted that she stop going out where she might run into the other man in our neighborhood. She has been attending counseling sessions that cost around $130 a month. She slept on a futon for 2 months. She knows that I will be watching her closely.


Those are all good steps, but it is obvious that none have worked. There are some WW that the onlything that will shake them from the affair fog is to be served with papers. Talk is cheap, but action is gold.

She has shown absolutely NO remorse. That signals a long life of disrespect. Even if by chance you have stopped this affair, she will have another with another OM. She has no reason not to. She will learn from her mistakes and be much better at hiding the next on and the next one and the next one.

Not trying to bash you, but it pains me to see you continually disrespected.


----------



## Jennick

I've been where your at and can say without a doubt it is no fun. If your wife truly wants to reconcile then she needs to understand that the trust she broke with you needs to be earned again. You cannot go back to how things were. How unfair of her to need time to work things out, but she isn't giving you the time you need to heal.


----------



## turnera

> I think it is totally unfair that I have to compete with other men for my wife who took vows with me.


Then you don't know enough about female psychology. I urge you to do some more reading. Women have to RESPECT their man before they can love him. Unfortunately, being a SAHD puts you WAY DOWN the totem pole in terms of deserving respect; sad, but true. She has you practically begging her to stay and she has him, TAKING what he wants. 

Which one do you think is more appealing?


----------



## Garm

turnera said:


> Then you don't know enough about female psychology. I urge you to do some more reading. Women have to RESPECT their man before they can love him. Unfortunately, being a SAHD puts you WAY DOWN the totem pole in terms of deserving respect; sad, but true. She has you practically begging her to stay and she has him, TAKING what he wants.
> 
> Which one do you think is more appealing?


I understand what you're saying. That is a shame that women can't respect a SAHD.


----------



## mupostori

So what is your plan.The facts are (i)your wife doesn't love you(ii)you are a SAHD therefore no money(iii)you are going to stay for the kids

how is it going to work if you continue this marriage ?

Are you going to be like the SAHM who ignores her WH behavior and focuses 100 % on her children .

What is your plan ,how are you going to manage and what are you going to do if she cheats again


----------



## Garm

I talked to the other man's wife on the phone today since I'm worried the affair is still going on. She told me that their reconciliation is going well. He is very remorseful. He buys her flowers every week. He writes her love emails and texts often. They are attending marriage counseling together every week. He is looking for a new wedding ring to start a new marriage with her. 

It was very reassuring to hear that they are doing well in reconciliation and helps me believe that the affair did end.

I really wish my wife would do these things. She told me she won't because I have to consider why she cheated on me in the first place. She doesn't have those feelings towards me. Well, by that logic, how can my wife's affair partner help his wife heal like that? He was messing around with my wife for years and yet he can help his wife heal by doing and saying the right things.


----------



## walkonmars

Men and women think differently. It's a fact. 

He might be gaslighting her or he may be truly remorseful. 

But your wife is just not satisfied with you. Not one bit. You are doing what you can but it's like trying to stop the tide with a piece of plywood. No matter how hard you try it aint gonna happen.


----------



## Davelli0331

Your wife just got caught cheating in a long term affair that she's been carrying for four years. Now that she's caught, she's showing you nothing but scorn and resentment, forget about remorse.

I'm all for reconciliation, but I think this is past saving.


----------



## awake1

If you're in good physical shape, you need to be in better shape. 

If you don't go out with friends, you need to. Go to bars or clubs, talk to women. You don't have to flirt or hit on them, but you need to do it. This will remove that air of desperation you let creep into your psyche over the years.

This is not the only woman in the world. I know you love her and want her more than everything, and this is exactly why I think she's repulsed. 

You're too nice and kind. You haven't made yourself a priority. 

Have you read no more mr nice guy and married man sex life?


----------



## walkonmars

awake1 said:


> If you're in good physical shape, you need to be in better shape.
> 
> If you don't go out with friends, you need to. Go to bars or clubs, talk to women. You don't have to flirt or hit on them, but you need to do it. This will remove that air of desperation you let creep into your psyche over the years.
> 
> This is not the only woman in the world. I know you love her and want her more than everything, and this is exactly why I think she's repulsed.
> 
> You're too nice and kind. You haven't made yourself a priority.
> 
> Have you read no more mr nice guy and married man sex life?


^^^This right here is pure gold!


----------



## Garm

awake1 said:


> If you're in good physical shape, you need to be in better shape.
> 
> If you don't go out with friends, you need to. Go to bars or clubs, talk to women. You don't have to flirt or hit on them, but you need to do it. This will remove that air of desperation you let creep into your psyche over the years.
> 
> This is not the only woman in the world. I know you love her and want her more than everything, and this is exactly why I think she's repulsed.
> 
> You're too nice and kind. You haven't made yourself a priority.
> 
> Have you read no more mr nice guy and married man sex life?


That really makes sense to me. I have read those 2 books recently. I think I have the nice guy syndrome. MMSL was really depressing to read after DDay. I wish I would have read that book a long time ago.


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> I did tell her this. She told me that would never happen. If we divorce it is going to be a custody battle.


Depends on the state, really. How much does she make? I know your salary.



Garm said:


> I did not act like a doormat. I had her sleep in another room for 2 months on an uncomfortable bed.


Did the cops rough you up? When is your trial set for?


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> Yes. I have been lifting weights since Dday. I am in good physical shape. I think it is totally unfair that I have to compete with other men for my wife who took vows with me.


We're always competing. It's "Nature's Way." Complaining about this is like complaining about the weather. It's just the way things are and they're never going to change. Stop hating and start thinking.


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> I talked to the other man's wife on the phone today since I'm worried the affair is still going on. She told me that their reconciliation is going well. He is very remorseful. He buys her flowers every week. He writes her love emails and texts often. They are attending marriage counseling together every week. He is looking for a new wedding ring to start a new marriage with her.


It is written: _Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil._

He ain't changing and she ain't getting a new marriage. He's pulled the wool over her eyes. A high testosterone male is not like woman; he never had any intention of breaking up his family for one of his side beaches. 



Garm said:


> It was very reassuring to hear that they are doing well in reconciliation and helps me believe that the affair did end.


Just because OMW is highly gullible is no excuse for you to continue to be.




Garm said:


> I really wish my wife would do these things.


Women are not men. Higher ranked males have no intention of running off with the members of their stable. They are only involved in however much romance it takes to get them in her backdoor. Your wife is not a man, she's been taken in hook line and sinker for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post. It's all chemical addictions combined with exceedingly low morals.



Garm said:


> She told me she won't because I have to consider why she cheated on me in the first place. She doesn't have those feelings towards me.


Again, this just BS that her rationalization hamster spins up. She was probably plenty happy with you consciously (her subconscious limbic was not) right until the OM slid into home plate. Then everything had to be rewritten in her mind to justify her immorality.



Garm said:


> Well, by that logic, how can my wife's affair partner help his wife heal like that? He was messing around with my wife for years and yet he can help his wife heal by doing and saying the right things.


Because he's got some things you don't have:

1. Sexual dominance
2. An understanding of the nature of women

She won't be too happy next time she catches him, but it's kind of a turn on at the same time to know he's attractive to other women too. the more women chase him, the more her ego grows. That's not true for all women, but it's true for her.


----------



## Garm

I forgot to mention that we got married when she was 22 and I was 26. She recently told me that she was too young to know what she wanted in a husband. She also told me that now she thinks people should wait until they're 30 to get married. We first met when she was 18. We did live together for a while before marriage. I also know that she had several other partners before she met me, so she was not a virgin. I have suspicions that she cheated on me before we got married.


----------



## Garm

Machiavelli, I need thick skin to read your replies. Now I really feel hopeless about this marriage.


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> I forgot to mention that we got married when she was 22 and I was 26. She recently told me that she was too young to know what she wanted in a husband. She also told me that now she thinks people should wait until they're 30 to get married.


A lot of lame brains think that, not just your wife. Unfortunately, Mother Nature has other ideas. The prime childbirth years, for both fecundity and quality of offspring, remain ages 14-25, after which fecundity declines. At age 30, 7% of women are already infertile. 90% of a woman's eggs are kaput by age 30. Mother Nature isn't really on board for modern society's whacky ideas.



Garm said:


> We first met when she was 18. We did live together for a while before marriage. I also know that she had several other partners before she met me, so she was not a virgin.


were you?




Garm said:


> I have suspicions that she cheated on me before we got married.


You got suspicions before or after?


----------



## BjornFree

Garm said:


> Machiavelli, I need thick skin to read your replies. Now I really feel hopeless about this marriage.


That's because your marriage really is hopeless. You say you met her at 18 and that she had lots of partners? That should have clued you in on the kind of lifestyle she enjoys. These women try playing the housewife but we all know what's really on the inside waiting to spread its wings(legs) and fly. Divorce her and save your dignity man.


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> Machiavelli, I need thick skin to read your replies. Now I really feel hopeless about this marriage.


You've just got to be realistic. I does you no good for me to sugar coat this stuff. We can't hold back the tides of nature any more than Canute. We _can_ sail with the tides, though. When you get it together and get a decent woman, you will be amazed at how much better everything, and I mean everything, is in your life. You'll notice bad things in this marriage that you don't even notice now, just because of the magnitude of the betrayal you're facing.

Stop trying to fight Nature and start using it to your advantage. Life goes much easier when we do. You even might have a 2% chance of getting your wife back, if you do.

Tell me about your bodybuilding program.

What field were you in before?

Have you ever heard of a book called The Four Hour Workweek? You need to read it.


----------



## carmen ohio

Garm said:


> Machiavelli, I need thick skin to read your replies. Now I really feel hopeless about this marriage.


Garm,

Don't mean to pile on but Machiavelli nailed it. Your biggest problem isn't your WW, it's the choices you've made starting with your decision to be a SAHD. Fix that by getting a decent job and your half way home to a new and better life. Stay at home -- dependent on your WW's income --cand you will be forever trapped in a sham of a marriage. 

Most importantly, understand and accept that your WW is never going to have womanly feelings for you and base your decisions on that. One consequence of this is that it is virtually inconceivable that your marriage can ever be made into something that any man with self-respect would want.

But there is a silver lining: your young, there's still time to start over. Start reading the MMSL blog:

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

It will give you a road map to a happier life -- if you have the courage to follow the path.

Good luck to you.


----------



## weightlifter

Dude you are plan B. Forget it. Its over. 

what WOM said is dead on.

DNA the kids is right. Betting man says at least one is going to surprise you.


----------



## Garm

Machiavelli, I'll answer a couple of your questions since you took the time to write all of that. I did get my testosterone checked a year ago and it was normal. 
She started this affair before we had kids and while I was still working. She was earning more than me though. 
Her father has no problem with interracial marriage since her sister has that kind of marriage. 
I do live in a state where adultery is considered. But that doesn't matter now since we have been sleeping together the past month.
My wife does not travel for work.


----------



## Garm

Everyone is telling me that I need to go to marriage counseling with my wife. Do you think that would be good for us or a waste of time and money? I told her that she needs to get a different individual counselor because she has not improved in the last 3 months. If we end up divorcing, would marriage counseling make me look better to the court?


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> Machiavelli, I'll answer a couple of your questions since you took the time to write all of that. I did get my testosterone checked a year ago and it was normal.


And the number was? How about free testosterone? Got that number?

See, i've seen them tell men 200 was "normal" for a man. Technically, it is, if you're Tiny Tim. At your age, you need to be looking at 800 IMHO.

Read up on this stuff here and compare it with your report.

Heavy leg presses will help you raise it. Also 100 mg of DHEA, a fistful of almonds daily, 2 brazil nuts daily, and plenty of cod liver oil will also help.



Garm said:


> She started this affair before we had kids and while I was still working. She was earning more than me though.


Yes, having a woman that out earns you is a problem, no matter the amount. They just resent it, instinctively. Mine did, when I was in grad school.

If you caught her and took her back prior to having the kids, this is a monster hit on her perception of you as a man. Even though she should love you more for this, it actually decreases her sexual attraction for you. Crazy, but true. Mother Nature wants men to be bad asses who don't take sh!t.




Garm said:


> Her father has no problem with interracial marriage since her sister has that kind of marriage.


In that case, you can rest assured that your wife is not with OM for the simple reason that OM considers your WW to be nothing more than one of his side beaches. That's good to know, don't you think?




Garm said:


> I do live in a state where adultery is considered. But that doesn't matter now since we have been sleeping together the past month.


A missed opportunity. Next you catch her, don't make the same mistake. BTW, just sleeping together won't prevent cause, it takes copulation.



Garm said:


> My wife does not travel for work.


No wonder she's climbing the walls. GPS and VAR her car. She will feel the hunger soon enough. You want to be ready to bust her then.

Take Carmen's advice and read Married Man Sex Life Primer. Download it tonight.

If you want to get a feel for how much you need to change, take this test.


----------



## Machiavelli

Garm said:


> Everyone is telling me that I need to go to marriage counseling with my wife. Do you think that would be good for us or a waste of time and money? I told her that she needs to get a different individual counselor because she has not improved in the last 3 months. If we end up divorcing, would marriage counseling make me look better to the court?


MC is a waste of money. IC is too, since your wife feels totally justified in what she's been doing and intends to do again, once the heat is off. 

MC won't matter under no-fault. They may send you to some counseling on co-parenting, but I think that's about it in these modern, enlightened times.


----------



## wilderness

Garm-

You seem like a nice gentleman and I'm sorry this is happening to you. I have to gently say something to you-

I can tell you have a BIG problem, not just with your wife, but with yourself. How can I tell this? Because, honestly, the way Machiavelli was talking to you should prompt a very extreme response. 

I'm a Christian, but if ANYONE were to say the things about my wife, or myself (especially my bodily organs and the other man's bodily organs) that he said to you, they'd have a fight on their hands. In this case, a virtual fight...but you get the point.

Now, I actually like Machiavelli, respect what he has to say, but he crossed the line in a major way with some of the things he said to you. Don't let ANYONE talk to you that way. EVER.

You are better than that. You are worth more than that.

God bless.


----------



## walkonmars

Garm

Mach nailed it with his posts. All of them. And I think you know it.


----------



## Jonesey

wilderness said:


> Garm-
> 
> You seem like a nice gentleman and I'm sorry this is happening to you. I have to gently say something to you-
> 
> I can tell you have a BIG problem, not just with your wife, but with yourself. How can I tell this? Because, honestly, the way Machiavelli was talking to you should prompt a very extreme response.
> 
> I'm a Christian, but if ANYONE were to say the things about my wife, or myself (especially my bodily organs and the other man's bodily organs) that he said to you, they'd have a fight on their hands. In this case, a virtual fight...but you get the point.
> 
> Now, I actually like Machiavelli, respect what he has to say, *but he crossed the line in a major way with some of the things he said to you. Don't let ANYONE talk to you that way. EVER.*
> You could easy say the same about his wife...
> Never the less MAC is right..
> 
> 
> You are better than that. You are worth more than that.
> 
> God bless.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Garm said:


> Everyone is telling me that I need to go to marriage counseling with my wife. Do you think that would be good for us or a waste of time and money? I told her that she needs to get a different individual counselor because she has not improved in the last 3 months. If we end up divorcing, would marriage counseling make me look better to the court?


For MC to work she has to actually want to be married to you. From what you have posted I just do not see that. IMHO counseling would be a wast of money , waste of time and would raise false hopes. As I read your posts about her I see her bolting first chance she gets. As you have written her conscious would be clean because she said she warned you.


----------



## Chris989

Garm,

Machievelli talks a lot about Bell Curves and some other stuff. Mach is at one end of the Bell Curve when considering attitudes to Alpha/Beta, SAHDs, how women think etc. etc.

As such, please understand that his views are not shared by everyone. Sure, the MMSLP says a lot of useful stuff that might be right some of the time about some of the people, but it isn't a bible. It's a part of your toolkit.

Had Mach made a post like that to me, I would have been more than a little dischuffed at, not only the views on race he expressed, but the way he talked about you (and your wife) and women in general.

He does talk sense a lot of the time, but his reaction to your situation is as extreme as your apparentley passive approach to it.

I say "apparantley" because you have done a lot of what people say you should do:

You saw a lawyer. 

You DNA tested the kids (a fact a lot of posters have missed).

You called your wife out.

You put surveillance in place.

You exposed.

You talked and actively talk to, the POSOM's wife.

You have done a lot more than it might look from what seems like a supine attitude.

It does seem that you need to be more robust with your wife, but don't lose hope. You have done miles more than many who come to here.

Despite Mach's protestations and I am not sure this is mentioned in my story, my wife ended up with a "man" from a different racial background to me. It was part of the picture about why she did what she did - part of the excitement I am sure - but in just the same way as some women get off on a man with a Ferrari, or men on women with big boobs.

That does not mean that that sort of woman can only *be* with a man with a Ferrari, or man with women with big boobs.

I can cite example after example where race has not mattered one jot - women whom have only been with one then married another or whatever. So, please ignore that part especially.


----------



## SomedayDig

This has nothing to do with the OP being a SAHD.

It has to do with a woman who is a pathological cheater.

Garm, as you've heard you are NOT in reconciliation. You are simply holding on to the tail section of a 747. You'll never catch up and are barely holding on. Stop trying. She doesn't seem to have tried. 

It's Friday, so it'd probably be best for you to contact an attorney before the weekend and get things rolling.


----------



## Garm

Thanks for all the advice guys. I've been reading on these forums the past few months, so I expected the condescension from Machiavelli and others. I am not a doormat. I made the cheaters suffer consequences. There is no doubt about that. There are other things I have done that I will not mention here.

I need to emotionally detach myself from the wife. That is what she did to me. That will not be easy. I need to work on an exit plan if she does not change her attitude. I'm not going to give up yet since we have toddlers.


----------



## Machiavelli

wilderness said:


> Garm-
> 
> You seem like a nice gentleman and I'm sorry this is happening to you. I have to gently say something to you-
> 
> I can tell you have a BIG problem, not just with your wife, but with yourself. How can I tell this? Because, honestly, the way Machiavelli was talking to you should prompt a very extreme response.
> 
> I'm a Christian, but if ANYONE were to say the things about my wife, or myself (especially my bodily organs and the other man's bodily organs) that he said to you, they'd have a fight on their hands. In this case, a virtual fight...but you get the point.
> 
> Now, I actually like Machiavelli, respect what he has to say, but he crossed the line in a major way with some of the things he said to you. Don't let ANYONE talk to you that way. EVER.
> 
> You are better than that. You are worth more than that.
> 
> God bless.


The facts are the facts. When it comes to Garm's wife, she is what she is and OM knows what she is, hence OM's "reconciliation" with his wife. Presumably, after 5 years WW still hasn't got that message. And Garm is worth more than that. We are trying to get him to see that something is severely and fundamentally wrong with Garm's world view; it is opposed to the natural order of the universe, and his WW, his mother, his in-laws are all exploiting him for their own purposes.

If he wants to get out of this misery, he is going to have to free his mind and his body from the invisible chains placed upon him by the matriarchy.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Garm said:


> Everyone is telling me that I need to go to marriage counseling with my wife. Do you think that would be good for us or a waste of time and money? I told her that she needs to get a different individual counselor because she has not improved in the last 3 months. If we end up divorcing, would marriage counseling make me look better to the court?


From what I understand,counseling does make you look better for the court.I don't know how true this is for no fault states though,you might want to check w your lawyer about that.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Garm said:


> Thanks for all the advice guys. I've been reading on these forums the past few months, so I expected the condescension from Machiavelli and others. I am not a doormat. I made the cheaters suffer consequences. There is no doubt about that. There are other things I have done that I will not mention here.
> 
> I need to emotionally detach myself from the wife. That is what she did to me. That will not be easy. I need to work on an exit plan if she does not change her attitude. I'm not going to give up yet since we have toddlers.


It seems like you've really got it together considering the fact that a bomb went off in your life.The only thing that helped me move on was having a plan,always.Winging it is what makes you waffle from feeling things an improve to feeling they need to end.
write down a plan of action that makes you comfortable.follow it the best you can.
Are you not giving up just for the sake of the little ones or do you still love her and think you can get back to being in love?


----------



## Garm

Thanks Chris989. I appreciate that.


----------



## LostViking

The bottom line is, Garm, your wife is just not into you. 

You need to absorb and internalyze this fact before you can make any decision for the future. You seem to think she has some lingering desire for you, but she does not. Every poster here can see that because we are onlookers viewing this from an objective stance. You being in the middle cannot see it apparently. 

You think because she is having sex with you that she desires you. 

No. 

This is duty sex. She is throwing you scraps from her table to keep you on the hook. See it for what it is.


----------



## Amplexor

Chris H. said:


> *11. No hijacking threads.* If your post is not on-topic for a particular thread, please start another thread for it rather than taking someone else's thread off-topic. Users who repeatedly hijack threads will be warned and potentially banned.


----------



## LostViking

:scratchhead:


----------



## Garm

LostViking, I know she is not into me any more, but there was a reason she agreed to marry me and have kids with me. I'm hoping that she wakes up and can get back to those feelings for me.


----------



## walkonmars

Garm said:


> LostViking, I know she is not into me any more, but there was a reason she agreed to marry me and have kids with me. I'm hoping that she wakes up and can get back to those feelings for me.



It's a reasonable wish. But isn't it a fact that you think that even then, when things were at their best, she was cheating?


----------



## Chris989

Garm said:


> LostViking, I know she is not into me any more, but there was a reason she agreed to marry me and have kids with me. I'm hoping that she wakes up and can get back to those feelings for me.


Garm, she won't wake up. For her, she *is* awake. Until you can break this - whatever it is - she will think that her *real* life is elsewhere and you are part of whatever nightmare her rationalisation hamster is saying you are the cause of.

I have read everything you have posted and I hope that you can see I do think you have done more than most already, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

You have to be prepared to lose your marriage in order to save it. It's like the ultimate game of "chicken", but you have to be the one that will not swerve. 

It goes against everything a decent man believes in and is counter intuitive to the rest, but I believe the only way you can save this marriage is to begin to end it.

The *only* reason my ex wife begun to snap out of her fog (and it took probably 6 months for her to fully come out of it) was because I caused the OM to dump her. She knew it was over with the OM and hence had to make it work with me.

It is messed up, it doesn't make sense. It certainly isn't right, fair or anything - but it is all you have left.

It is mega corny, but perhaps Mr Kristofferson knew what he was talking about when he said that "freedom is another word for nothing left to lose" and, right now, you are free.

Use that freedom.


----------



## LostViking

Garm said:


> LostViking, I know she is not into me any more, but there was a reason she agreed to marry me and have kids with me. I'm hoping that she wakes up and can get back to those feelings for me.


Yeah... she was into you once. A long time ago. And I'm sure at the time she married you she was into you emtionally and sexually. But she is not anymore. And chances are slim she ever will be again.

When did the dsiconnect happen? Why did it happen? She probably doesn't even know herself. What is fact is that somewhere along the line she decided to replace you with another man. And now she cannot get this man out of her heart and mind. 

Do you really want to continue on with her knowing this?


----------



## MicroStorm

SomedayDig said:


> *This has nothing to do with the OP being a SAHD.*
> 
> It has to do with a woman who is a pathological cheater.
> 
> Garm, as you've heard you are NOT in reconciliation. You are simply holding on to the tail section of a 747. You'll never catch up and are barely holding on. Stop trying. She doesn't seem to have tried.
> 
> It's Friday, so it'd probably be best for you to contact an attorney before the weekend and get things rolling.


I think the SAHD thing is more relevant than people are acknowledging. Not that being a SAHD makes him a doormat, but it's a matter of sheer economics. If he's been a SAHD for a while and had a professional job beforehand, then he's going to have one hell of a time getting back into the workforce after being out of it for a long time (years??). The economy is still struggling and jobs are hard to find, especially for the long-term unemployed, which the OP effectively is, his choice or not.

His wife clearly knows that she has leverage over him because she controls the purse-strings. She knows that he won't leave (partially because he's a doormat, but also due to economics--where would he go?), so she can effectively do what she wants. The OP can rest-assured that the affair will go on, if not with the OM, then with someone new. Effectively, he's a slave in his own house. Married women who are the homemaker/SAHM know these risks all too well.

As a few other posters mentioned, if I were the OP, I'd do all I could to make myself better--better health, more marketable for jobs, more confidence, etc. Look for jobs and see what your market value is right now. Educate yourself, go to the gym, make a contingency plan. Nobody should be compelled to live like this.


----------



## LostViking

MicroStorm said:


> I think the SAHD thing is more relevant than people are acknowledging. Not that being a SAHD makes him a doormat, but it's a matter of sheer economics. If he's been a SAHD for a while and had a professional job beforehand, then he's going to have one hell of a time getting back into the workforce after being out of it for a long time (years??). The economy is still struggling and jobs are hard to find, especially for the long-term unemployed, which the OP effectively is, his choice or not.
> 
> His wife clearly knows that she has leverage over him because she controls the purse-strings. She knows that he won't leave (partially because he's a doormat, but also due to economics--where would he go?), so she can effectively do what she wants. The OP can rest-assured that the affair will go on, if not with the OM, then with someone new. Effectively, he's a slave in his own house. Married women who are the homemaker/SAHM know these risks all too well.
> 
> As a few other posters mentioned, if I were the OP, I'd do all I could to make myself better--better health, more marketable for jobs, more confidence, etc. Look for jobs and see what your market value is right now. Educate yourself, go to the gym, make a contingency plan. Nobody should be compelled to live like this.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Well said.


----------



## SomedayDig

Well, hell. I guess I've been a f'ng doormat these last 14 months. And here I thought I was doing right by my family.


----------



## MicroStorm

SomedayDig said:


> Well, hell. I guess I've been a f'ng doormat these last 14 months. And here I thought I was doing right by my family.


Totally missed my point, but that's okay. Being a SAHD doesn't make you a doormat (though, staying with a cheating spouse--well...). I'll likely be in the SAHD role at some point, and I can't wait for that. Much better than working. But even you have to admit that a non-working spouse--male or female--has far less power than the breadwinner has, and if there is ever a time when the marriage dissolves, SAH spouses are going to struggle in most cases, and that is at least some part of what the OP is going through in his situation. Economics and logic do not lie.


----------



## SomedayDig

Point taken.


----------



## Chris989

MicroStorm said:


> Totally missed my point, but that's okay. Being a SAHD doesn't make you a doormat (though, staying with a cheating spouse--well...). I'll likely be in the SAHD role at some point, and I can't wait for that. Much better than working. But even you have to admit that a non-working spouse--male or female--has far less power than the breadwinner has, and if there is ever a time when the marriage dissolves, SAH spouses are going to struggle in most cases, and that is at least some part of what the OP is going through in his situation. Economics and logic do not lie.


Darn good point. How often do we see advice for a SAHM to get a job so she at least has the independence to leave if needed?

This might be why it isn't helpful to tie this in with being alpha or beta or whatever when, really, it's a practical issue about being able to afford to feed yourself if you fall out with the breadwinner.


----------



## turnera

And let's not discount the subconscious desire in women from caveman days to want the 'stronger' man, the one who brings home the meat, who protects her. It's real, it happens, and it's very subtle.


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## Healer

She does not love you and does not want to be with you. How can you not see this? It will never change.

Move on and find a good woman that loves you.


----------



## awake1

Mac is usually right, and I think in this case he is. 

There is a natural order of things. Women swoon over vin diesel, not the 140lb guy with the pencil protector. 

You need to have attitude (which is #1 imo), physicality, masculinity, and social/economic status. 

If you want women to want you, you need to act, and look like a man. Women in my opinion are drawn to that strength. I think men are drawn to the feminine on the flip side.

SAHD means either nothing at all or a world of difference. To use the example, if Vin diesel/brad pitt were stay at home dads, all the women would swoon even more. It would be sweet. "oh look what a daddy he is" 

But if you're needy, clingy, or out of shape and act feminine it does matter. That's just imo. So no I don't think it matters, and yes I think it matters in a case by case basis. 

In this case I think it matters. She's got you by the short hairs economically and psychologically.


----------



## Horizon

LostViking said:


> The bottom line is, Garm, your wife is just not into you.
> 
> You need to absorb and internalyze this fact before you can make any decision for the future. You seem to think she has some lingering desire for you, but she does not. Every poster here can see that because we are onlookers viewing this from an objective stance. You being in the middle cannot see it apparently.
> 
> You think because she is having sex with you that she desires you.
> 
> No.
> 
> This is duty sex. She is throwing you scraps from her table to keep you on the hook. See it for what it is.


Yes, true. Scraps are better than nothing though - for a short while until you see that they are scraps. That you realise that she did things with the POSUM that she will not do with you. That the fact that she is not quite into it because she has to rebuild that desire is bogus. I was thinking - hmmmm, when will that be, when will it start to get spicy again? Trouble was I could not see her making that adjustment anytime soon - and to be fair you can't expect it to go back to that place straight up. But....it will not go back to that place. If the chemistry is not there then it is duty sex, a mercy f**k. Us blokes want a girl to rip our gear off. My WS told the POSUM she will have to struggle when she ever sees him to not want to rip his clothes off. Never said that to me - ever. Never swallowed my seed multiple times - ever. You see where I am on the totem pole Garm, not even on the pole at all. So I will rebuild Horizon from the ground up - will I than get back on the totem pole? Will I even want to be on that totem pole? Betrayal of this kind is so massive it's like an amorphous threatening cloud, there are no boundaries to it, it can't be contained and it's there everyday.


----------



## Garm

Most of you think this marriage is hopeless. I just can't give up yet because my kids need an intact family. If they come from a broken home they may end up with some really bad baggage for a lifetime like I have. If I catch her cheating again the marriage will have to end though. I will have a plan in place for that. I already have another place I can live and the ability to support myself for a while.


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## happyman64

Garm

There is no doubt in any of our minds that you will catch her.

Get your plan together.

Set money aside for your use to support yourself.

Secure a job so you can support yourself.

And get the solid evidence you need so you can file under "infidelity" if it helps you in the Divorce.

Now is the time to focus on you to better yourself and the lives of your children.

Your wife will never fall back in love with you the way you two are living right now.

And she will most likely never miss you until you are gone.....

HM64


----------



## LostViking

The baggage your kids are gathering watching their dad struggle in a loveless marriage is FAR worse than baggage from a divorce. 

Your thinking is backwards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ShootMePlz!

By growing up watching a loveless/dysfunctional marriage will probably scare them off of marriage or they may accept that type as normal for theirs in the future!!!


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## BobSimmons

Garm said:


> LostViking, I know she is not into me any more, but there was a reason she agreed to marry me and have kids with me. I'm hoping that she wakes up and can get back to those feelings for me.


Reasons change. Just like people. Those same reasons didn't stop her from cheating


----------



## KanDo

Garm said:


> Most of you think this marriage is hopeless. I just can't give up yet because my kids need an intact family. If they come from a broken home they may end up with some really bad baggage for a lifetime like I have. If I catch her cheating again the marriage will have to end though. I will have a plan in place for that. I already have another place I can live and the ability to support myself for a while.


It is FAR better to come from a broken home than to be in one.


----------



## Chris989

Garm said:


> Most of you think this marriage is hopeless. I just can't give up yet because my kids need an intact family. If they come from a broken home they may end up with some really bad baggage for a lifetime like I have. If I catch her cheating again the marriage will have to end though. I will have a plan in place for that. I already have another place I can live and the ability to support myself for a while.


Garm. There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep your marriage and family together. This board is positive about marriage. Many on here are in reconciliation with a wayward spouse.

Wanting your children to come from a stable, married home is a Good Thing. I think it's the Right Thing To Do.

The advice you are getting - muddled as it has been by questions of "Alpha" and the unfortunate obsession with race that some members have -is aimed at you getting your marriage back on track.

If you can't, then fair enough, move on and make it so the kids know both parents love them. 

But you aren't there yet. You can't make a decision until your wife is out of her obsession with this other man. Until then, she will not, cannot, respect you. She is more or less like a child.

In effect, she is a drug addict (she is literally speaking).

Listen, whilst my (ex) wife was in her affair and for a couple of years leading up to it, she treated me with enormous disrespect. Now, I didn't tolerate it but she continued. I would tell her where to get off, walk out, go out with the guys, have women interested in me. All that, but until she had stopped the affair none of that mattered.

It goes for _*all cheaters*_. Until they have gone through cold turkey, the truth won't dawn on them.

My ex is now desperate for me to stay (we are 13 months out from DDay2). It took about 6 weeks after her affair ended for her to begin to realise what she had thrown away. She has begged, pleaded, done anything and everything I want and more. She has changed to a better woman than I ever really knew.

This, all from a woman that showed me jaw dropping disrespect because I had been replaced by her dopamine dealer - the POSOM.

I'm saying all this because you definitely have hope, but you have to grab the chance you have. If you sit there and wait for her to come back to you, it will not happen. It never does and it never will.

DO SOMETHING. and START NOW.


----------



## harrybrown

any update on your situation? Has she come to her senses?


----------



## Garm

My situation is still the same. She has been saying that she feels like she has to fake it to show any affection to me. She is not in love with me. She is willing to stick around for the kids. It seems like she wants us to be more like roommates. 
I don't know what to do. I think to reconcile or divorce would both be very difficult. I don't know which option is better. 
If we divorce, I would have to adjust to a lower standard of living. I would have to get a job after being unemployed 2 1/2 years. I would lose half or more time with the kids.
If we reconcile, I'm worried that my wife will continue to treat me badly. I think there would be a good chance of another D-Day in the near future.
I think I just need to give it more time and carefully plan my future.


----------



## AlphaProvider

Garm said:


> My situation is still the same. She has been saying that she feels like she has to fake it to show any affection to me. She is not in love with me. She is willing to stick around for the kids. It seems like she wants us to be more like roommates.
> I don't know what to do. I think to reconcile or divorce would both be very difficult. I don't know which option is better.
> If we divorce, I would have to adjust to a lower standard of living. I would have to get a job after being unemployed 2 1/2 years. I would lose half or more time with the kids.
> If we reconcile, I'm worried that my wife will continue to treat me badly. I think there would be a good chance of another D-Day in the near future.
> I think I just need to give it more time and carefully plan my future.


Well you can't ask, supplicate or "do more" to change this dynamic.

Maybe it's lost, and maybe not. I'm tired of worried about this, but wish you the best.


----------



## lordmayhem

Garm said:


> My situation is still the same. She has been saying that she feels like she has to fake it to show any affection to me. She is not in love with me. She is willing to stick around for the kids. It seems like she wants us to be more like roommates.
> I don't know what to do. I think to reconcile or divorce would both be very difficult. I don't know which option is better.
> If we divorce, I would have to adjust to a lower standard of living. I would have to get a job after being unemployed 2 1/2 years. I would lose half or more time with the kids.
> If we reconcile, I'm worried that my wife will continue to treat me badly. I think there would be a good chance of another D-Day in the near future.
> I think I just need to give it more time and carefully plan my future.


I'm sorry, but I'm not surprised that nothing has changed. Your marriage is in False R and you are continuing to live in limbo. Limbo is hell, isn't it? You know what you have to do, you've been advised about what to do for two long threads now. Your WW is most likely still in the affair, just deeper underground. She is completely unremorseful. The fact of the matter is:


You cannot have Reconciliation without True Remorse

If she were truly remorseful, she would be doing the heavy lifting to heal you and the marriage. To her, you're just the live in babysitter. 

Your situation is very similar to Someday Dig, the difference is that he's in R and his WW is truly remorseful and is doing the heavy lifting to help heal him and the marriage. Yours is not, not one bit. 

But the choice is yours. If you want to continue to live in Limbo due to fear, it's up to you. But I haven't seen anyone being able to stand living in limbo for more than a year. They all eventually give up and get sick of it.


----------



## Chris989

Garm said:


> My situation is still the same. She has been saying that she feels like she has to fake it to show any affection to me. She is not in love with me. She is willing to stick around for the kids. It seems like she wants us to be more like roommates.
> I don't know what to do. I think to reconcile or divorce would both be very difficult. I don't know which option is better.
> If we divorce, I would have to adjust to a lower standard of living. I would have to get a job after being unemployed 2 1/2 years. I would lose half or more time with the kids.
> If we reconcile, I'm worried that my wife will continue to treat me badly. I think there would be a good chance of another D-Day in the near future.
> I think I just need to give it more time and carefully plan my future.


Time is what you do not have.

You have had an amazing chance here and some great advice.

You are throwing it all away by doing nothing.

I thought that you would see that it is possible to get out of this - especially after seeing how similar our situations were.

The difference between you and I, however, is that my wife wants me back.

That is because I did something about it - admittedly long before I came here - but you know what you must do and are choosing not to.

Get a job.

Stop your wife's affair.

You have stated that you will not do either.

Good luck. I am no longer taking part in this thread.


----------



## turnera

The only hope you have of getting a decent marriage is getting rid of her, so she sees what she's losing.


----------



## russell28

Garm said:


> My situation is still the same. She has been saying that she feels like she has to fake it to show any affection to me. She is not in love with me. She is willing to stick around for the kids. It seems like she wants us to be more like roommates.
> I don't know what to do. I think to reconcile or divorce would both be very difficult. I don't know which option is better.
> If we divorce, I would have to adjust to a lower standard of living. I would have to get a job after being unemployed 2 1/2 years. I would lose half or more time with the kids.
> If we reconcile, I'm worried that *my wife will continue to treat me badly*. I think there would be a good chance of another D-Day in the near future.
> I think I just need to give it more time and carefully plan my future.


As long as you allow her to treat you badly, she will.... Worrying about it will accomplish nothing to stop it. If you want her to stop treating you badly, stop being a doormat and start acting like a man. Doormats are not attractive... strong men are very desirable. How do you show that you are strong? Stop letting her abuse you.. if she tells you she doesn't want you, tell her that's fine that you'll find someone that does want you, and pack her stuff.. Stand up for yourself. Make it clear that you don't want a roommate, you want a lover and a wife. If she's not able to provide those things, she's robbing you of precious time on this planet where you're being stressed and hurt instead of feeling loved and happy. Why is she the only one that deserves to be happy? Why is it acceptable for her to disrespect you openly? Does she think you aren't capable of finding someone else? Show her that you are by your actions, by taking a stand. Be a man, demand your wife act like a wife or leave. 

Read all the advice you've been given and decide what you want out of life. More pain and suffering, or control over your own situation. 

Do something, stop being a bystander. Do it for your children, show them they have a strong father.


----------



## Hicks

You need a purpose in life.

Your purpose needs to be planning for a divorce where you get custody of the kids, and your future state.

A well prepared SAHD, who documents through a journal of facts that he is the primary care giver of his chldren, stands a good chance of getting primary custody.

Here are some other recommendations:
1. Stop having sex with your wife. You are replusing your wife by having sex with her given what she is saying about you and her marriage.
2. Start planning for a future state of your life, without your wife, with custody of your kids, with child support, with spousal support and with a job after the divorce after attaining these things.
3. Recognize that happiness and living life on your own terms is worth more than money.
4. Execute this as a process realizing it takes time... All this time you are gaining your own self respect if your wife chooses to treat you with respect as a husband and she chooses to act as a wife, you will consider stopping the process.
5. Adopt that attidude that YOUR WIFE has complete control to stop the process, stop the harm to the kids, provide an intact family to them. In other words, you have the weight of the kids on your shoulders, and it needs to be on your wife's.


----------



## Garm

Thanks for the advice again guys. I really like your advice Hicks. I do feel like I'm in limbo here. I keep accusing my wife that she is still in the affair since she is not showing me any affection or helping me heal. She continues to deny it. I have been watching her closely and it appears the affair is over, at least for now. 

She says she can't help me heal because she does not want to fake being in love with me. I keep thinking about doing the 180. I really need to do that at this point.


----------



## badmemory

Garm said:


> Thanks for the advice again guys. I really like your advice Hicks. I do feel like I'm in limbo here. I keep accusing my wife that she is still in the affair since she is not showing me any affection or helping me heal. She continues to deny it. I have been watching her closely and it appears the affair is over, at least for now.
> 
> She says she can't help me heal because she does not want to fake being in love with me. I keep thinking about doing the 180. I really need to do that at this point.


Garm,

Think about what your wife has told you. She doesn't love you. You'll never get her respect back by staying in this marriage after her admitting that. Cheating aside, that should be enough on it's own for you to leave.

Add her infidelity back to the equation and it's just a ridiculous proposition. All your excuses for staying - please.


----------



## vi_bride04

Garm said:


> *She says she can't help me heal because she does not want to fake being in love with me.* I keep thinking about doing the 180. I really need to do that at this point.


Do you want to be married to someone who would have to "fake" being in love with you? What kind of marriage is that? She just sounds horrible...doesn't even want to help you heal for the damage SHE has done. 

You deserve so much better. Hope you do start the 180 so you an start healing and moving on.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Garm said:


> My situation is still the same. She has been saying that she feels like she has to fake it to show any affection to me. She is not in love with me. She is willing to stick around for the kids. It seems like she wants us to be more like roommates.
> I don't know what to do. I think to reconcile or divorce would both be very difficult. I don't know which option is better.
> *If we divorce, I would have to adjust to a lower standard of living. I would have to get a job after being unemployed 2 1/2 years.* I would lose half or more time with the kids.
> If we reconcile, I'm worried that my wife will continue to treat me badly. I think there would be a good chance of another D-Day in the near future.
> I think I just need to give it more time and carefully plan my future.




Your wife is not in love with you or respect you she told it to your face, if you divorce her you will loose your standard of living and comfort of being a SAHD.

so, You have been living in a one sided open marriage for a long time. then in my opinion the best option for you is to continue in the marriage (I am not saying reconciliation, its not possible with out a truly remorseful Wspouse who is ready to do anything to salvage the marriage) and open the other end of the marriage. Take care of your kids, enjoy being a SHAD, spend her money and when you get opportunity bang other chicks also. 

Stop asking her for R, its not going to happen. She sees a good babysitter in you but dont see a husband whom she can respect, love and bang the brain out, in you. 

What ever your decision know one thing, people respect persons who respect themselves.


----------



## Lifescript

Garm said:


> She says she can't help me heal because she does not want to fake being in love with me. I keep thinking about doing the 180. I really need to do that at this point.


Garm,

What would be the purpose of doing the 180? Do you hope to get her back? The 180 is for you. It's for improving yourself, gain back your self-esteem. 

I feel for you. This is a very tough situation. But she's telling you how she feels: she doesn't love you anymore. I know it's hard to wrap your head around that but that's your reality, sadly. 

I'm finally on the verge of coming out of a very damaging and abusive marriage. It's hard to let go but believe me it's the best thing you can do. 

I would have preferred my X told me flat out she didn't love me and not manipulate me with trickle truths and false declarations of love. 

It will get better. But it's a slow process.


----------



## turnera

Garm said:


> Thanks for the advice again guys. I really like your advice Hicks. I do feel like I'm in limbo here. I keep accusing my wife that she is still in the affair since she is not showing me any affection or helping me heal. She continues to deny it. I have been watching her closely and it appears the affair is over, at least for now.
> 
> She says she can't help me heal because she does not want to fake being in love with me. I keep thinking about doing the 180. I really need to do that at this point.


 From a psychological standpoint, she's 'there' because it works for now, but she has no or little fear you will leave her now. After all, you didn't leave before. Subconsciously that makes you less attractive, she doesn't need to chase you or do 'better' for you to keep you, so why should she? As long as she feels she doesn't have to work to keep you, she won't.

I suggest you set up a timeline, say the end of the summer, and if nothing has changed, make plans to separate. Then maybe she'll wake up and realize what she's lost, and you'll be attractive to her again.


----------



## BashfulB

Get a job. Men were not made to stay home and take care of the kids and house. If we were the Creator would have given us milk glands. 

Your wife doesn't respect you because, however long ago, you rolled over and agreed to play subservant to her. There is no mystery why she doesn't respect you. This SAHD bullsh*t is just one more reason why marriage is going the way of the dodo. Another feminist construct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I have read you are in a position that makes you look weak. Women don't like weak men (and I speak from experience).


----------



## Garm

Sometime I feel like I should just try to act like a roommate and enjoy spending the money she earns and enjoy all the time I have with my kids. I could try to detach from her and just use her. It's just so difficult to try live like that and not have romantic feelings. I don't know if I can detach from her like she did from me. I get frustrated because she is not helping me heal or meeting my needs.


----------



## Garm

Some of you say my SAHD role is my problem. Her affair started 2 years before I became a SAHD. I was working full time at a decent job at that time and had been working full time for years.


----------



## russell28

Garm said:


> Sometime I feel like I should just try to act like a roommate and enjoy spending the money she earns and enjoy all the time I have with my kids. I could try to detach from her and just use her. It's just so difficult to try live like that and not have romantic feelings. I don't know if I can detach from her like she did from me. I get frustrated because she is not helping me heal or meeting my needs.


Good plan...

Use some of her money to sign up for a dating site.. When she sees you browsing it, tell her that you're looking for someone to meet all the needs that she's not meeting, so you can be loved by someone that isn't faking it. Make comments like "ooh, she sounds nice, pretty and intelligent, I wonder what it'd be like to date someone with those qualities"... 

Tell her you need to heal from her abuse, you're looking for someone to help you since she's not willing to work on it.

I'd also find a job, even if it's working at night when she's home... Just to get out and be with people.


----------



## BashfulB

Garm you have come to equate your wife's abuse with love. That is why you stay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## badmemory

Garm said:


> Sometime I feel like I should just try to act like a roommate and enjoy spending the money she earns and enjoy all the time I have with my kids. I could try to detach from her and just use her. It's just so difficult to try live like that and not have romantic feelings. I don't know if I can detach from her like she did from me. I get frustrated because she is not helping me heal or meeting my needs.


Garm,

It's your life and your kids. As long as you have a realistic viewpoint and you know what you're getting in to; more power to you. 

I believe however, that at some point you'll be changing your mind.


----------



## BashfulB

Garm said:


> Some of you say my SAHD role is my problem. Her affair started 2 years before I became a SAHD. I was working full time at a decent job at that time and had been working full time for years.


So at a time in your marriage when you needed to show the most strength, you turned around and lost or gave up your job?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garm

BashfulBull said:


> So at a time in your marriage when you needed to show the most strength, you turned around and lost or gave up your job?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At least I am now primary caregiver for our kids. She has proven that she will cheat on me no matter what I am doing.


----------



## BashfulB

Garm said:


> At least I am now primary caregiver for our kids. She has proven that she will cheat on me no matter what I am doing.


Then file and request primary custody. It is not going to get any better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: 3 Months into Reconciliation*



Garm said:


> Sometime I feel like I should just try to act like a roommate and enjoy spending the money she earns and enjoy all the time I have with my kids. I could try to detach from her and just use her.


I don't mean to offend you but strong men don't think this way. 

Have you read Married Man Sex Life? If you haven't, do so.


----------



## turnera

Honestly, if I got the chance to live the next 10 years raising my kids and not working and could THEN go out and start a new life once they move out...gotta say, it looks kinda tempting. But that would be because I'm not interested in ANY guy, including my husband and especially any OTHER guy, so...


----------



## Julien

BashfulBull said:


> Get a job. Men were not made to stay home and take care of the kids and house. If we were the Creator would have given us milk glands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Threadjack

You can't be serious right there. This has to be the most sexist thing I've ever read.

/Threadjack


----------



## BashfulB

Julien said:


> Threadjack
> 
> You can't be serious right there. This has to be the most sexist thing I've ever read.
> 
> /Threadjack


So if someone's opinion doesn't mesh with your world view it's a thread jack?

That is a little extreme isn't it? Are you one of TAM's PC cops?

This guy is on here asking people's opinions on what he should do and I gave him my opinion. He can consider it or dismiss it. His choice. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Julien

BashfulBull said:


> So if someone's opinion doesn't mesh with your world view it's a thread jack?
> 
> That is a little extreme isn't it? Are you one of TAM's PC cops?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I didn't say you were threadjacking, I said MY comment was threadjacking (hence the "threadjack /threadjack") by taking the topic off of his problems to your statement which I don't agree with.




BashfulBull said:


> This guy is on here asking people's opinions on what he should do and I gave him my opinion. He can consider it or dismiss it. His choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I respect that and your opinion as well. I just believe the comment about "milk glands" was unnecessary.


----------



## russell28

Julien said:


> Threadjack
> 
> You can't be serious right there. This has to be the most sexist thing I've ever read.
> 
> /Threadjack


Person says that a man can't breastfeed, and out come the PC police screaming 'sexist'... Yea, that's it... if you acknowledge that a man and a women are different, you're sexist.

In many cases, the man will want to be the breadwinner in the family, and provide for his wife and children. If he's allowing his wife to carry the burden of bringing in the income to the house, and he's not contributing financially, that can be quite a blow to his self esteem. A man with baby puke on his apron, when his wife comes home from a hard days work.. not as sexy as a man coming home dressed up after being with coworkers all day.

I believe it became a problem in my relationship when I started working from home.. I became 'safe' and less attractive, because I wasn't around women in work all day.. No threat, not sexy.... Also not wearing nice cloths, wearing sweats.. not sexy... not shaving.. not sexy (unless you're into cavemen).. (forget that I was making 4x her salary)

So yea, as a man, you want to get a job... I know it's a sexist thing to say, imagine a man employed.. what a hippy I am.


----------



## Hardtohandle

I didn't read all the pages..

My simple question is what does the Therapist, Marriage Counselor say about all of this ?

Garm, I'm sorry buddy your going through all of this.. 

What I find funny is if she doesn't love you so much, why doesn't she just pull the trigger. She don't even have the guts to do that it seems..

Try to get some legal advice, but ask for some REAL NO BS INFO.. 

I paid a lawyer but in the end I did and negotiated everything myself. My lawyer even couldn't believe what I negotiated. So ask 3 or 4 lawyers before you decide on one.. 

Further try to make an agreement with your spouse if you can and STAY OUT OF THE COURTS.. 

I got custody of my oldest. My Pension, Other invested retirement monies. Now I have my youngest with me, so in 3 months when this is done. I told my STBXW that I would pay her for 3 months more of child support but then we are going to court to get it fixed. I see no reason why I have to pay her for a child that is with me 5 days out of the week. She didn't refute or rebuff it.. Lets see what happens. 

Again sorry I know it svcks and no one wants this.. Best you can do is take a day at a time and carry on.. Because there is nothing else you can do.


----------



## Julien

russell28 said:


> Person says that a man can't breastfeed, and out come the PC police screaming 'sexist'... Yea, that's it... if you acknowledge that a man and a women are different, you're sexist.
> 
> In many cases, the man will want to be the breadwinner in the family, and provide for his wife and children. If he's allowing his wife to carry the burden of bringing in the income to the house, and he's not contributing financially, that can be quite a blow to his self esteem. A man with baby puke on his apron, when his wife comes home from a hard days work.. not as sexy as a man coming home dressed up after being with coworkers all day.
> 
> I believe it became a problem in my relationship when I started working from home.. I became 'safe' and less attractive, because I wasn't around women in work all day.. No threat, not sexy.... Also not wearing nice cloths, wearing sweats.. not sexy... not shaving.. not sexy (unless you're into cavemen).. (forget that I was making 4x her salary)
> 
> So yea, as a man, you want to get a job... I know it's a sexist thing to say, imagine a man employed.. what a hippy I am.


Yeah, no... Men and women ARE different, saying the opposite would be a scientific nonsense, but saying that a man can't take care of his children by himself is sexist. That is an insult to single dads everywhere (God knows they are numerous on TAM). Whether they chose to be SAHDs is their choice.



russell28 said:


> In many cases, the man will want to be the breadwinner in the family, and provide for his wife and children. If he's allowing his wife to carry the burden of bringing in the income to the house, and he's not contributing financially, that can be quite a blow to his self esteem. A man with baby puke on his apron, when his wife comes home from a hard days work.. not as sexy as a man coming home dressed up after being with coworkers all day.
> 
> I believe it became a problem in my relationship when I started working from home.. I became 'safe' and less attractive, because I wasn't around women in work all day.. No threat, not sexy.... Also not wearing nice cloths, wearing sweats.. not sexy... not shaving.. not sexy (unless you're into cavemen).. (forget that I was making 4x her salary)
> 
> So yea, as a man, you want to get a job... I know it's a sexist thing to say, imagine a man employed.. what a hippy I am.


I understand that SAHDs are less attractive and agree with your rationale here. I will never be a SAHD unless the circumstances force me to, just not my nature.

It was OP's choice to be a SAHD, whether or not it was a mistake, I respect his choice and his ability to be a great caregiver for his kids, as good as any woman with "milk glands".


----------



## turnera

Can we drop the t/j, please?


----------



## JustGrinding

Hardtohandle said:


> What I find funny is if she doesn't love you so much, why doesn't she just pull the trigger. She don't even have the guts to do that it seems..


Why should she? She's got a safe, secure base maintained by Garm from which to operate, and a free baby-sitter to care for her progeny while she goes out and lives the party-girl lifestyle. Wayward women won't drop that security blanket. It has to be snatched away.

To me, in this huge mess which is Garm's existence, this part is the easiest to figure.


----------



## BashfulB

Julien said:


> Yeah, no... Men and women ARE different, saying the opposite would be a scientific nonsense, but saying that a man can't take care of his children by himself is sexist. That is an insult to single dads everywhere (God knows they are numerous on TAM). Whether they chose to be SAHDs is their choice.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that SAHDs are less attractive and agree with your rationale here. I will never be a SAHD unless the circumstances force me to, just not my nature.
> 
> It was OP's choice to be a SAHD, whether or not it was a mistake, I respect his choice and his ability to be a great caregiver for his kids, as good as any woman with "milk glands".


Dumb choice. JMHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garm

If I was a SAHD when her cheating started, I would blame it on being a SAHD. I know it is not that. 
I just can't believe she would cheat on me for years and at the same time get pregnant twice with me. She was not even thinking about her babies. I actually trusted her to stay loyal to me since we had 2 babies at home. I was not even suspicious at all. How can I ever trust her again if she could do that?


----------



## russell28

Julien said:


> Yeah, no... Men and women ARE different, saying the opposite would be a scientific nonsense, but saying that a man can't take care of his children by himself is sexist. That is an insult to single dads everywhere (God knows they are numerous on TAM). Whether they chose to be SAHDs is their choice.


He's not a single dad... 

yet.

I never said a man can't care for children.

....and it's not a t/j because the context is on topic.. i.e. he needs to get out of his house and get with adults, preferably at a job to help his self esteem.


----------



## BashfulB

Garm said:


> If I was a SAHD when her cheating started, I would blame it on being a SAHD. I know it is not that.
> I just can't believe she would cheat on me for years and at the same time get pregnant twice with me. She was not even thinking about her babies. I actually trusted her to stay loyal to me since we had 2 babies at home. I was not even suspicious at all. How can I ever trust her again if she could do that?


You can't. Accept this fact and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BashfulB

Any woman with a healthy uterus can birth children. But her ability to procreate does not necessarily make her a mother. Mothers nurture their children, love their husbands, and sacrifice heir own wants and desires to create warm and loving households where children have a safe environment to grow and mature. 

I would argue your wife is not a mother. And she is definitely no wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

Ok, time for me to chime in. 

I'm a SAHD and have been for years. Everyone's got a opinion of a SAHD and here is mine since I have been a full time worker in the past also. 

Most SAHM would praise me up and down because they knew the work involved and to not get paid made it all the harder. Their husbands would goto work, come home, eat dinner and not help out. The husbands thinking was that was the wife's "job". Women resent that, remember its a mix of Alpha/Beta. Working guy is fine, but come home and play with kids, throw some baseballs around. Help pick up after dinner. Give kids a bath once in a while. 


It takes a strong man to become a SAHD, with all the stories you hear of men getting women prego then taking off. That's a weak man. 


I don't think it had much if any to do with you being a SAHD. Like you stated she did it when you worked. She's a cheater, you can be a CEO and she would have done it. 

Now, you KNOW she does not love you. 

Talk to a lawyer and see what rights you have. Don't let her know you are doing this. 

You can't ever trust her again and you know that...her actions prove this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

Garm...any updates?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garm

Nothing has really changed jerry123. I'm still in limbo here. I'm just trying to accept it. I'm trying to look at the bright side. I always worked jobs I hated. Now I get to stay at home with my kids. 
I know I need to improve myself. I just have to take it one day at a time. Limbo does suck though. I'm finding it about impossible to implement the 180.


----------



## jerry123

I see....

Have you talked to any lawyers to find out your rights as a SAHD? If I remember, it's only been 2.5 years. 

Thing is, you are wasting your time with her. That time could be spent finding a loyal woman that respects you and loves you. There are millions out there. 

By staying in limbo it is showing her that you are weak. Be strong!! 

180 is tough but combine that with working out and getting out of the house. 

Do you get out by yourself or with friends?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garm

Thanks jerry. I did talk to lawyers. I just feel overwhelmed by the idea of divorce. I like being a SAHD. I do not feel like I could find another woman. I'm sure a SAHD is not attractive to women. I guess I'd rather be living here every day with my kids than living alone half the time. I have the nice guy syndrome and it is not easy to break out of that.


----------



## tom67

Jerry is one and has gotten hit on.


----------



## turnera

You're in therapy, right? Every week?


----------



## Garm

I'm not in therapy but I guess I should be. My doc prescribed me an SSRI but I am afraid to take them because of sexual side effects. I have heard that the side effects could be permanent.


----------



## jerry123

tom67 said:


> Jerry is one and has gotten hit on.


yes i have...LOL...and i still do.

Listen, i know the mind set you are in. It's not a good place to be.


Make yourself attractive!!

Do you workout? Dress nice? 

I'm pulling for you, but if you stay in limbo the days and weeks will go by.

I don't know your medical situation but you may not need those pills. Working out and getting sun can do wonders!! Eat right!!


----------



## Garm

I do lift weights. I am in good physical shape.

I can't remember the last time a woman flirted with me. I guess that is part of the reason my wife is in love with another man who is a foot taller than me.


----------



## jerry123

Ok good, but with that attitude you're pretty much telling women to stay away. 

Women want a strong confident man. I understand you say you're a "nice guy". Stop being that!!! Read the books, get your self back. 

I was there, before being a SAHD I was building tools that make stuff.(Tool and die) I was an Alpha all the way. Then It happened, I got beta-sized over the years after being mr. Mom. Came here and took advice. I needed the sense slapped into me. And you need that now. 

You just said your wife loves another man. She's gone, let her go.

Did lawyers say anything about custody of kids or child support?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jerry123

Also, browse this blog also. 

Married Man Sex Life Forum
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Garm said:


> I'm not in therapy but I guess I should be. My doc prescribed me an SSRI but I am afraid to take them because of sexual side effects. I have heard that the side effects could be permanent.


 Do your due diligence. That is a generalization, most likely passed around by men who don't know any better and like to gossip about their most important asset. Doesn't sound like you've done much of anything to help yourself.


----------



## Garm

jerry123 said:


> Ok good, but with that attitude you're pretty much telling women to stay away.
> 
> Women want a strong confident man. I understand you say you're a "nice guy". Stop being that!!! Read the books, get your self back.
> 
> I was there, before being a SAHD I was building tools that make stuff.(Tool and die) I was an Alpha all the way. Then It happened, I got beta-sized over the years after being mr. Mom. Came here and took advice. I needed the sense slapped into me. And you need that now.
> 
> You just said your wife loves another man. She's gone, let her go.
> 
> Did lawyers say anything about custody of kids or child support?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea I read that book MMSL. It was very depressing to read. I have always been a beta type guy. It seems too difficult to change into something I'm not. I just never got into the social game stuff. I don't think my marriage will last too much longer since I'm not "alpha" enough. My wife should have figured that out when we dated over 3 years before we got married.


----------



## turnera

"Seems too difficult" is what people in depression say. Go back to your doctor and talk about the meds again.


----------



## turnera

Garm said:


> I have always been a beta type guy.
> 
> I just never got into the social game stuff.


Changing from a beta guy is NOT some sort of social game issue. It is your CORE personhood, your belief in yourself, your willingness to say 'no more' to someone who hurts you, and to LEAVE someone who continues to hurt you - because you respect yourself too much. Not a game. Loving yourself. Therapy and meds are about your only hope at this point.


----------



## ShootMePlz!

They are not permanent!!! Some have been known to lower the libido but only while taking them. You just have to have talk with the doctors!!!


----------



## bandit.45

Garm. Be who you want to be. Fvck all that alpha beta puke. If you like who you are don't change. It's your sorry wife who needs changing. Get out of that mess and live your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

Garm said:


> Thanks jerry. I did talk to lawyers. I just feel overwhelmed by the idea of divorce. I like being a SAHD. I do not feel like I could find another woman. *I'm sure a SAHD is not attractive to women.* I guess I'd rather be living here every day with my kids than living alone half the time. I have the nice guy syndrome and it is not easy to break out of that.





Garm said:


> I do lift weights. I am in good physical shape.
> 
> *I can't remember the last time a woman flirted with me. I guess that is part of the reason my wife is in love with another man* who is a foot taller than me.





Garm said:


> Yea I read that book MMSL. It was very depressing to read. *I have always been a beta type guy. It seems too difficult to change into something I'm not.* I just never got into the social game stuff. *I don't think my marriage will last too much longer since I'm not "alpha" enough.* My wife should have figured that out when we dated over 3 years before we got married.


Garm,

Let me see if I've got this right. You acknowledge that you're not the kind of man women, including your WW, find attractive but you aren't willing to even try to change so you are just resigning yourself to ending up in a failed marriage.

Am I missing something here?


----------



## russell28

Garm said:


> Yea I read that book MMSL. It was very depressing to read. I have always been a beta type guy. It seems too difficult to change into something I'm not. I just never got into the social game stuff. I don't think my marriage will last too much longer since I'm not "alpha" enough. My wife should have figured that out when we dated over 3 years before we got married.


You need to appreciate what you have to offer the world. Being Alpha doesn't mean you need to play social games, or be something you're not. It just means you're strong and won't let people abuse you without taking a stand. You can be a nice guy and also be strong, confident and attractive to women.

Here's a book you might find helpful:
"You Can Heal Your Life" by Louise Hay. 

"The most important thing you can do to help heal your entire life ... is stop criticising yourself". YCHYL quote.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Garm said:


> If I was a SAHD when her cheating started, I would blame it on being a SAHD. I know it is not that.
> I just can't believe she would cheat on me for years and at the same time get pregnant twice with me. She was not even thinking about her babies. I actually trusted her to stay loyal to me since we had 2 babies at home. I was not even suspicious at all. How can I ever trust her again if she could do that?


Garm - 
I've read this entire thread; you've gotten a lot of good, strategic advice here. you should organize it into a plan that works best for you.

But right here, in this post, is where you come closer than any poster of the thread to getting at the real problem. i.e. your wife is just a plain-old, run-of-the mill abomination of a person. she may not be pure evil, but she sounds barely human to me. I mean this. Those that treat others like garbage, in particular their spouse or family, are themselves garbage. You should not desire to be caught dead with her, let alone be married to her.

The OM is not your enemy - she is! You should be dripping with resentment toward her for what she has done to you. sure she pulled you into a relationship. people like her can 'fake' what a real human being acts like, and do so quite convincely. But you've surely come to know the real person hidden under that exterior - please admit just how ugly that person really is! get yourself away from her, then figure out how to keep your children away from her. 
(I went too far with that last comment, perhaps?? did I really? is she a fit mother? if so, once you read this, quickly jot down 2 examples of how she is and post them. we'll see how easy that is for you to do)

I think you could find a better candidate for marriage in a women's prison....no hyperbole intended


----------



## Garm

nuclearnightmare said:


> Garm -
> I've read this entire thread; you've gotten a lot of good, strategic advice here. you should organize it into a plan that works best for you.
> 
> But right here, in this post, is where you come closer than any poster of the thread to getting at the real problem. i.e. your wife is just a plain-old, run-of-the mill abomination of a person. she may not be pure evil, but she sounds barely human to me. I mean this. Those that treat others like garbage, in particular their spouse or family, are themselves garbage. You should not desire to be caught dead with her, let alone be married to her.
> 
> The OM is not your enemy - she is! You should be dripping with resentment toward her for what she has done to you. sure she pulled you into a relationship. people like her can 'fake' what a real human being acts like, and do so quite convincely. But you've surely come to know the real person hidden under that exterior - please admit just how ugly that person really is! get yourself away from her, then figure out how to keep your children away from her.
> (I went too far with that last comment, perhaps?? did I really? is she a fit mother? if so, once you read this, quickly jot down 2 examples of how she is and post them. we'll see how easy that is for you to do)
> 
> I think you could find a better candidate for marriage in a women's prison....no hyperbole intended


Everyone who doesn't know about the affair thinks she is a great mother. My wife is good with our kids. She spends most of her free time with them. She only met with her other man when she was supposed to be at work. The fact that she was planning to replace me with this other man means that she was not thinking about their long term well-being. I believe she put her needs for her affair partner above our kids' needs. Considering that, I think she is a terrible mother.


----------



## 3putt

Garm said:


> Everyone who doesn't know about the affair thinks she is a great mother. My wife is good with our kids. She spends most of her free time with them. She only met with her other man when she was supposed to be at work. The fact that she was planning to replace me with this other man means that she was not thinking about their long term well-being. I believe she put her needs for her affair partner above our kids' needs. Considering that, I think she is a terrible mother.


Garm, do you not see this post written by a very wise lady on MB unfolding right before your very eyes? Think about it.



Pepperband said:


> *"Sin in it's ordinary progression first deceives, next hardens, and then destroys - John Thornton *
> 
> Thinking about this quote in the context of a wayward mind ....
> 
> 1. Deception
> We talk about wayward "fog", which is verbal expression of the self deception that goes on in a wayward mind. Deception which allows a so called "normal" person to commit adultery. "The enemy" is the ultimate liar. What deception does is this, deception makes swallowing a deadly poison seem like a desirable choice. This is the point in adultery where the waywards telling themselves lies might be shocked into reality by exposure. perhaps not, but it is possible. Truth & light are kryptonite to the deception. I am talking about the wayward losing his/her mind.
> 
> 2. Now, about the wayward's heart. It hardens. The wayward heart becomes callous. The wayward heart becomes closed off and insensitive to the pain and devastation their adultery causes. The wayward can even accept the broken hearts of their own children if that pain supports their adultery. The wayward becomes impervious to empathy. Cry all you want, your tears have no meaning for the hardened heart of a lost wayward. Your tears, your pain only annoy the hardened wayward heart.
> 
> 
> 3. Destruction
> And finally, the wayward's soul. The sin of adultery destroys the wayward's soul. The spiritual essence of humanity is nowhere to be found in the wayward. Integrity has been cast off in order for the adultery to continue. The wayward does not go on his/her merry way unscathed. The wayward is the most wounded of all. The destruction of a once beautiful soul, now made ugly by sin, is heartbreaking.
> 
> 
> There is a progression to this loss.
> Humans are vulnerable to temptation.
> Temptation feels good.
> But, giving into the sin, and living in the sin is life changing.
> Soul changing.
> 
> We can actually SEE it sometimes.
> We can actually SEE the cold eyes of the hardened heart.
> We can actually SEE the lifeless eyes of the soulless.


It's entirely up to you what you do about it brother.


----------



## life101

3putt said:


> Garm, do you not see this post written by a very wise lady on MB unfolding right before your very eyes? Think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> It's entirely up to you what you do about it brother.


New rule: One strike and don't let the door hit you on your way out.


----------



## theroad

Garm said:


> Thanks jerry. I did talk to lawyers. I just feel overwhelmed by the idea of divorce. I like being a SAHD. I do not feel like I could find another woman. I'm sure a SAHD is not attractive to women. I guess I'd rather be living here every day with my kids than living alone half the time. I have the nice guy syndrome and it is not easy to break out of that.


Woman want to be provided for. Time and time again when a man becomes a SAHD the WW loses interest and respect for her BH as a man. Does not mean you are not a great parent.

Thing is WW can hire a full time nanny to do a great job in raising the kids.

WW wants a self respecting man. A man that lets his woman support him is a bum. End of story.

Now if the best thing a man can do is work 40 hrs a week for $10 hr he can have pride because he is out there working his butt off. Doing an honest days work instead of being another child that has to be supported by his wife.

There is a reason human kind evolved as men as the one to go out and hunt and the women stay home. Technology has changed the physical need for this arrangement.

Though technology has not change the reality and can not change the reality of how millions of years of evolution have hard wired our brain and how the brain responses.


----------



## lifeistooshort

theroad said:


> Woman want to be provided for. Time and time again when a man becomes a SAHD the WW loses interest and respect for her BH as a man. Does not mean you are not a great parent.
> 
> Thing is WW can hire a full time nanny to do a great job in raising the kids.
> 
> WW wants a self respecting man. A man that lets his woman support him is a bum. End of story.
> 
> Now if the best thing a man can do is work 40 hrs a week for $10 hr he can have pride because he is out there working his butt off. Doing an honest days work instead of being another child that has to be supported by his wife.
> 
> There is a reason human kind evolved as men as the one to go out and hunt and the women stay home. Technology has changed the physical need for this arrangement.
> 
> Though technology has not change the reality and can not change the reality of how millions of years of evolution have hard wired our brain and how the brain responses.



Interesting post. There is a certain amount of irony that the OP is concerned about not being able to get another woman because he feels his sahd status makes him unattractive, yet he never wonders if it makes him unattractive to his wife. Kinda like people that feel their spouse should be happy with them, but at the same time they know they'd need to make some changes to attract someone else, like their spouse isn't deserving of the best they have to offer. I realize he's watching their kids, but that only means he's a good parent, not that he's an attractive man to his wife. We all know how different the parent and spouse roles are. A good rule of thumb is if you don't think other people will be attracted to you, your spouse probably isn't attracted to you either. Nobody wants to feel line they're stuck with something nobody else wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I think he knows it makes him unattractive to her. He, however, would rather stay there so he can be a SAHD with his kids. 

Assuming she doesn't just kick him out and divorce him.


----------



## lifeistooshort

turnera said:


> I think he knows it makes him unattractive to her. He, however, would rather stay there so he can be a SAHD with his kids.
> 
> Assuming she doesn't just kick him out and divorce him.



True, but in making this decision he's decided that his relationship with his wife is less important them his sahd status and should not be surprised that his marriage has suffered. Even if she goes along with this it will only be until the kids get older and then she'll walk, but if it's divorce she wants she's better off to do it now. He'll want spousal support and the longer she stays married to him the more he'll get. The cheating, while cr&ppy, isn't the root of the problem. His kids would be much better off with two happy parents that love each other then they will be with him at home a assuming of course that they can't have both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> I think he knows it makes him unattractive to her. He, however, would rather stay there so he can be a SAHD with his kids.
> 
> Assuming she doesn't just kick him out and divorce him.


We have had quite a few stay at home dads here. When you get down to the bare facts, they all say the exact same things and none of their wives respect them. I can't remember one of them that has figured this out. Not one of them has gotten a job, not one of them has won their wife back, not one of them has made it work.

To be blunt they all sound like unhappy wives willing to put up with a cheating husband to maintain their lifestyle. Its incomprehensible.


----------



## Garm

theroad said:


> Woman want to be provided for. Time and time again when a man becomes a SAHD the WW loses interest and respect for her BH as a man. Does not mean you are not a great parent.
> 
> Thing is WW can hire a full time nanny to do a great job in raising the kids.
> 
> WW wants a self respecting man. A man that lets his woman support him is a bum. End of story.
> 
> Now if the best thing a man can do is work 40 hrs a week for $10 hr he can have pride because he is out there working his butt off. Doing an honest days work instead of being another child that has to be supported by his wife.
> 
> There is a reason human kind evolved as men as the one to go out and hunt and the women stay home. Technology has changed the physical need for this arrangement.
> 
> Though technology has not change the reality and can not change the reality of how millions of years of evolution have hard wired our brain and how the brain responses.


I was working a decent job full time when my wife started having her affair and we did not have kids at that time either. She was going to cheat on me no matter what. That is just the kind of person she is. I already explained that earlier in this thread.
A guy who would write the quoted comments above is a jerk. End of story.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Garm said:


> I was working a decent job full time when my wife started having her affair and we did not have kids at that time either. She was going to cheat on me no matter what. That is just the kind of person she is. I already explained that earlier in this thread.
> A guy who would write the quoted comments above is a jerk. End of story.


Umm, then why would you quit your job and become dependent on her knowing she was a cheat? Did you not know this at the time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garm

lifeistooshort said:


> Umm, then why would you quit your job and become dependent on her knowing she was a cheat? Did you not know this at the time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She falsely reconciled with me. I got laid off from work 2 years later. She continued her affair secretly.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Why should gram change if he is ok with the present arrangement?

All of us on TAM knows his situation is worst. A five yr A, a remorseless, unloving wife, who dont give a sh1t about OPs pain and hurt. We also know for R, wife should be remorseful and ready to heavy lifting. Should be transparent and ready to do any thing to heal the BS. We know that he should find a job and do work out and change him self to an attractive male.He also know this.

He is not interested in finding a job and work out side. He prefers to be a SAHD. He is not interested in changing himself to an Attractive male, because it need work from his side. he is not ready to do that. He dont want to Divorce. 

Then his only option is to continue in this marriage and acept this as his choice of life. He did this also.

We can only give advice to people, they will take what they want. we cant make them do that. Let him continue his life as he wish. 

But as everyone said here, I too want to say that OP this is not a life. This not the father your children's needed as a moral figure. You may be the best care giver but not the best one for your children to be their moral figure.


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## Garm

Kallan Pavithran said:


> Why should gram change if he is ok with the present arrangement?
> 
> All of us on TAM knows his situation is worst. A five yr A, a remorseless, unloving wife, who dont give a sh1t about OPs pain and hurt. We also know for R, wife should be remorseful and ready to heavy lifting. Should be transparent and ready to do any thing to heal the BS. We know that he should find a job and do work out and change him self to an attractive male.He also know this.
> 
> He is not interested in finding a job and work out side. He prefers to be a SAHD. He is not interested in changing himself to an Attractive male, because it need work from his side. he is not ready to do that. He dont want to Divorce.
> 
> Then his only option is to continue in this marriage and acept this as his choice of life. He did this also.
> 
> We can only give advice to people, they will take what they want. we cant make them do that. Let him continue his life as he wish.
> 
> But as everyone said here, I too want to say that OP this is not a life. This not the father your children's needed as a moral figure. You may be the best care giver but not the best one for your children to be their moral figure.


So you're saying that it is immoral to be a SAHD? I disagree.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Garm said:


> So you're saying that it is immoral to be a SAHD? I disagree.




I didnt said its immoral to be a SAHD but immoral to live the life of a cuckold or Doormat life. 

The real problem is that you are not getting what we are saying.


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## Chaparral

Even though she started cheating before you became a sahd, what she saw in you was the type of man who thought being a sahd was an option.

It is your manliness she questions.


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## lifeistooshort

Nobody's saying there's anything wrong with being a sahd, we're saying that you're willing to accept being married to a liar and a cheat so you can keep the sahd lifestyle. If that's your decision then fine, but you're also complaining about her cheating. With your current position you have no leverage. Zero. She was cheating on you with a job, and I can guarantee that her respect for you is below zero right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Garm said:


> Thanks for all the advice guys. I've been reading on these forums the past few months, so I expected the condescension from Machiavelli and others. I am not a doormat. I made the cheaters suffer consequences. There is no doubt about that. There are other things I have done that I will not mention here.
> 
> I need to emotionally detach myself from the wife. That is what she did to me. That will not be easy. I need to work on an exit plan if she does not change her attitude. I'm not going to give up yet since we have toddlers.


Mach is a super motivator. He wants tee you off so you will be resolute and take action. Mach does not give advice to everybody. He must feel that there is hope for you. Take that as a compliment since is astute.

File for divorce. You can always cancel it. It is obvious that whoever wants the relationship more is at a disadvantage in the transactional aspects. By filing for divorce you risk your marriage, but it is already at risk. Being nice has not served you well so far.

As for your wife loving the other guy, well, love is powerful. She cannot just turn it off. But the emotional shock of having your reject her, might shake up her up at the subconscious level. After all, you want her to be emotionally connected to you.

MC is useless if she doesn't commit to repairing things.

Read ReGroup. You wife may not be quite the character Mrs RG is but RG's 180 has had his adulterous WAW thinking about him at 3am.


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## Garm

lifeistooshort said:


> Nobody's saying there's anything wrong with being a sahd, we're saying that you're willing to accept being married to a liar and a cheat so you can keep the sahd lifestyle. If that's your decision then fine, but you're also complaining about her cheating. With your current position you have no leverage. Zero. She was cheating on you with a job, and I can guarantee that her respect for you is below zero right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have accepted that she has no respect for me. That is her fault. She decided to change completely from the woman I married. I have basically not changed at all while she made the decision to become a different person.
I know that what I am doing now is better than what I would have as a divorced SAHD. I get to see my kids every day. I don't have to work at a job that I hate. I don't have to shuffle the kids around for holidays and birthdays.


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## badmemory

Garm said:


> She decided to change completely from the woman I married.


I would suggest otherwise. 

You simply discovered what kind of person she *is.* And the sad part is that you continue to accept it.


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## Garm

LongWalk said:


> Mach is a super motivator. He wants tee you off so you will be resolute and take action. Mach does not give advice to everybody. He must feel that there is hope for you. Take that as a compliment since is astute.
> 
> File for divorce. You can always cancel it. It is obvious that whoever wants the relationship more is at a disadvantage in the transactional aspects. By filing for divorce you risk your marriage, but it is already at risk. Being nice has not served you well so far.
> 
> As for your wife loving the other guy, well, love is powerful. She cannot just turn it off. But the emotional shock of having your reject her, might shake up her up at the subconscious level. After all, you want her to be emotionally connected to you.
> 
> MC is useless if she doesn't commit to repairing things.
> 
> Read ReGroup. You wife may not be quite the character Mrs RG is but RG's 180 has had his adulterous WAW thinking about him at 3am.


Maybe I should have filed for divorce right after DDay. I think it is too late for that now because we have already reconciled in the eyes of the law in my state. I think she would have agreed on the divorce because her affair was to the point of an exit affair. She is not going to be remorseful no matter what.


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## wilderness

No way would I be getting a job if I were you, man. Why weaken your bargaining position in the event of a divorce (which seems likely)? Also, you mentioned in a previous post that you have another place to live in the event you catch her cheating again? That right there goes to the heart of the problem concerning your mindset, imo. Why in the world should you move out and leave your kids with a woman like this? You need to be of the mindset that in the event of divorce, you are going for the house, the child support, the alimony, full custody, and she is the one that needs to take on the debt. This whole thing is her doing, let her suffer the consequences accordingly. And your kids need your influence as well.

The thing is, it really doesn't matter how she does or doesn't feel about you. Her feelings do not justify her abusing you. Period. It doesn't matter whether she loves you or not. She lied, she cheated, she is doing harm to you now and she did harm to you in the past. She is also harming your children. The first conversation I would be having with your wife would go something like this-

"If you are this screwed up of a person with this degree of absent morals that you don't even feel badly about abusing an innocent person (me) AND your kids, why don't you just leave and let me raise them? Why would you feel confident in your ability to be a mother?

I respect you for trying to keep your family together. No joke. But the situation you find yourself in is NOT sustainable. Time to really turn up the heat on this woman. If I were you I'd be getting my hands on as much money as humanly possible. Take credit cards and cash advance them to the max, put the cash in a safe deposit box. Ask her constantly for more money. Tell her you are upset about her abuse and you need to go out and spend some money to make yourself feel better. Seriously.
Then DO it. 

Go away for the weekend with friends and pick up a few bar tabs. Buy yourself a new big screen 3d tv if that is your thing. STOP all supplicating behavior. She is not acting like a married person and it has been proven that you acting like a married person has not worked in your reconciliation. Try something different.


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## jerry123

Garm, I'm pulling for you buddy. 

The advice your getting is meant to help you. Crude as it is, it's the truth. 

But I don't believe you being a SAHD has anything to do with the person your wife is. She is a cheater. 

Woman cheat on men who work hard all day and provide for their family also. 

The change you need to make is for you, not her. You need to love and respect yourself before anyone can love and respect you. 

If she is on board then great, if she is not then move on. There are millions of other women out there. Right now your wife sees you as weak. She cheated and you took her back. 


I took advice from this forum and it helped me. I did not want to believe people here but they were right. 
I don't even know if my wife cheated on me. Never found any proof but if I do find out in the future I am done with her. No R for us. 
For me, it was the way she was treating me. I used to let things go because I did not want to "stir the pot". 

Not anymore, my wife treats me much better because I don't take her disrespect. She still tries but I squash it every time. 

If you have not talked to a lawyer do it soon. It's free advice and you will see what position you are in as a SAHD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garm

jerry123 said:


> Garm, I'm pulling for you buddy.
> 
> The advice your getting is meant to help you. Crude as it is, it's the truth.
> 
> But I don't believe you being a SAHD has anything to do with the person your wife is. She is a cheater.
> 
> Woman cheat on men who work hard all day and provide for their family also.
> 
> The change you need to make is for you, not her. You need to love and respect yourself before anyone can love and respect you.
> 
> If she is on board then great, if she is not then move on. There are millions of other women out there. Right now your wife sees you as weak. She cheated and you took her back.
> 
> 
> I took advice from this forum and it helped me. I did not want to believe people here but they were right.
> I don't even know if my wife cheated on me. Never found any proof but if I do find out in the future I am done with her. No R for us.
> For me, it was the way she was treating me. I used to let things go because I did not want to "stir the pot".
> 
> Not anymore, my wife treats me much better because I don't take her disrespect. She still tries but I squash it every time.
> 
> If you have not talked to a lawyer do it soon. It's free advice and you will see what position you are in as a SAHD.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really appreciate your comments and support jerry123. I have talked to a few attorneys. I should have filed for divorce then just to see her reaction. I am not ready for divorce since I am a long term SAHD with no real employment options. I guess we are going to live like roommates for a while so we can raise our kids together. Maybe she will get the romantic feelings for me back, but I know there is little chance of that happening. I do know that I will not accept her to continue her affair. She knows I am watching her like a hawk.


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## nuclearnightmare

lifeistooshort said:


> Nobody's saying there's anything wrong with being a sahd, we're saying that you're willing to accept being married to a liar and a cheat so you can keep the sahd lifestyle. If that's your decision then fine, but you're also complaining about her cheating. With your current position you have no leverage. Zero. She was cheating on you with a job, and I can guarantee that her respect for you is below zero right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He should not worry about what she respects or thinks. it is his respect for her that should be set to zero. She is a who#re. He needs to find a game plan to divorce her and take her for every penny he can, plus full custody of their kids. She deserves that and more and once he sets that as his goal his family will be on the road to recovery.


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## lifeistooshort

nuclearnightmare said:


> He should not worry about what she respects or thinks. it is his respect for her that should be set to zero. She is a who#re. He needs to find a game plan to divorce her and take her for every penny he can, plus full custody of their kids. She deserves that and more and once he sets that as his goal his family will be on the road to recovery.



Except he's already said he's not going to do that. He said himself that he has no long term employment prospects and he likes the sahd lifestyle, so he's content to live like this. Content to live like roommates but still complaining about her cheating, and he also said that maybe her romantic feelings for him might come back (probably unlikely anyway but probability zero while he's not working). And even if he "takes her for every penny he can" he's still going to have to get a job. What will happen if she divorces HIM? Most of us think he should get a job and move on but he doesn't want to do that. So, what do you tell him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

lifeistooshort said:


> Except he's already said he's not going to do that. He said himself that he has no long term employment prospects and he likes the sahd lifestyle, so he's content to live like this. Content to live like roommates but still complaining about her cheating, and he also said that maybe her romantic feelings for him might come back (probably unlikely anyway but probability zero while he's not working). And even if he "takes her for every penny he can" he's still going to have to get a job. What will happen if she divorces HIM? Most of us think he should get a job and move on but he doesn't want to do that. So, what do you tell him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm firmly in the 'don't get a job' camp. There is just too big of a risk that once he gets a job he'll be served with divorce papers. If that happens, his bargaining position will be _much_ weaker than it is now. A job right now could conceivably lead to him losing custody of his kids (I'm talking physical custody, which would be a disaster for his kids as well). Right now if either party files for divorce, he'll have a good argument for getting the marital home and full custody. It's not a guarantee as the system is horribly biased against men, but he certainly has the advantage.

Plus, why allow this woman to benefit for her affair? Instead of getting a job, I advocate quietly squirreling away as much of the marital funds as humanly possible until his position improves.


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## turnera

I have to be honest, I don't want my current spouse but I don't want a replacement, either. So if I had the opportunity to stay at home and not have to work for another 10-15 years as a roommate, I'd be tempted. I could be going to school and getting a second degree, or a PhD, or writing the Great American Novel or something, with that time. Plus, I'd get to be there for my kids 24/7. Once they're off to college, I'd be ready to branch out in my new career.


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## Garm

I am finding it very difficult to live as roommates with my wife. It really bugs me when I get no affection from her. She refuses to help me heal because there is no love or respect. I guess I need to learn how to detach so that it doesn't bother me. Is that even possible?


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## jerry123

Garm, just think....everything you are doing is not working. 

It's not working because she basically got away with cheating. She has no remorse, does not care if you "heal". 

And no, you can't live like roommates. It won't work for you. It works for her because she does not have to show affection and you take care of the kids for her. 

Living like this is really easy for her and hard for you. She is in control. 

Take control back...detach by serving divorce papers. That seems like your only option. 

The more you try and show her affection and want affection back the more she will pull away. 

If you listen to me your life will be better, but you need to change yourself if you want to find another woman who will love you and show affection. 

Picture me grabbing you with my hands and trying to shake some sense into you. There is probably no one more than myself that wants you to turn your life around and I don't even know you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Garm said:


> I am finding it very difficult to live as roommates with my wife. It really bugs me when I get no affection from her. She refuses to help me heal because there is no love or respect. I guess I need to learn how to detach so that it doesn't bother me. Is that even possible?




Everyone is different. It wouldn't be possible for me, I did divorce someone where there was no love or respect. Let me ask you this: if getting a job was going to help heal your marriage would you do it? I'm not suggesting it would, just trying to get a feel for your priorities. Was being a long term sahd a mutual decision, or did you just not look for another job when you got laid off? Sahp must be a joint decision to have any chance of working long term.
Also, I know you like this lifestyle but you really do need a backup plan for if she divorces you. I don't recall how long you've been a sahd but if your kids are little it can't be that long, so you may not get as much support as you think. Right now you're banking on her staying married to you, but what if she doesn't? You wouldn't be the first sahp to be left high and dry when the spouse leaves. Just be careful and plan for all possibilities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

Garm said:


> I am finding it very difficult to live as roommates with my wife. It really bugs me when I get no affection from her. She refuses to help me heal because there is no love or respect. I guess I need to learn how to detach so that it doesn't bother me. Is that even possible?


Dear Garm,

You've rejected most of the advice you've received here and, in your last few posts, said you've chosen to remain a SAHD with a cheating woman who -- you admit -- has no love or respect for you.

Whether you can live like this or not depends on what kind of man you are. In effect, you've chosen to accept cuckoldom. For most men, this eventually proves too emotionally devastating and emasculating to continue. Other men can deal with it (_i.e._, bear the pain and humiliation) and some even prefer it. Such is the diversity of the human experience.

Whether you are the kind of man who can live like this or not, only time will tell. What is certain is that, if you remain in such a relationship long enough, you will become a bitter and broken man when you realize that you have wasted your life.

Now is the time to think hard about what kind of man you want to be and, if you decide that cuckoldom is not for you, to take action to end it.


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## Garm

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Garm,
> 
> You've rejected most of the advice you've received here and, in your last few posts, said you've chosen to remain a SAHD with a cheating woman who -- you admit -- has no love or respect for you.
> 
> Whether you can live like this or not depends on what kind of man you are. In effect, you've chosen to accept cuckoldom. For most men, this eventually proves too emotionally devastating and emasculating to continue. Other men can deal with it (_i.e._, bear the pain and humiliation) and some even prefer it. Such is the diversity of the human experience.
> 
> Whether you are the kind of man who can live like this or not, only time will tell. What is certain is that, if you remain in such a relationship long enough, you will become a bitter and broken man when you realize that you have wasted your life.
> 
> Now is the time to think hard about what kind of man you want to be and, if you decide that cuckoldom is not for you, to take action to end it.


Thanks for the comments. I'm not living as a cuckold. The affair ended as far as I know. I absolutely will not live in an open marriage even if I have to give up my lifestyle.
Maybe my position in a divorce will be stronger if I can hold out here for a couple of more years as a SAHD. Hopefully my wife will change her attitude and make things work in that time.


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## turnera

Are you working on being more alpha in your interactions with her? (and I'm not talking knuckle-dragger here; just not taking crap from her)


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## theroad

Garm said:


> I absolutely will not live in an open marriage even if I have to give up my lifestyle.
> Maybe my position in a divorce will be stronger if I can hold out here for a couple of more years as a SAHD. Hopefully my wife will change her attitude and make things work in that time.


So you say and think. Your WW just got smarter and now has learned how to better hide her next affair.

You have been told how a wife loses respect for a SAHD.

Yet you plan on how to stay unemployed.

Women want providers.

Providing child care which is a glorified name for baby sitting is not providing for a wife.


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## jerry123

She cheated while he had a full time job...so it goes beyond his SAHD role. 


Obviously she had no respect then so she won't if you start working now. 

Garm, what state do you live in?? If you don't want to post here message me. I want to do some google search for you. 


Also, what did you do for work before?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garm

theroad said:


> So you say and think. Your WW just got smarter and now has learned how to better hide her next affair.
> 
> You have been told how a wife loses respect for a SAHD.
> 
> Yet you plan on how to stay unemployed.
> 
> Women want providers.
> 
> Providing child care which is a glorified name for baby sitting is not providing for a wife.


I don't care what my wife wants at this point. Apparently she wants a home-wrecking scumbag. SAHDs are much more attractive than men who destroy families with babies.


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## turnera

Except to dysfunctional women who need to do bad.


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## LostViking

Garm said:


> I don't care what my wife wants at this point. Apparently she wants a home-wrecking scumbag. SAHDs are much more attractive than men who destroy families with babies.


No they are not. Hate to burst your bubble. SAHDs are biologically the most unattractive of all men. Just about every SAHD on this board lives in a virtually loveless marriage filled with hatred and emotional abuse. You just keep telling yourself those little mistruths if they make you feel better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Julien

LostViking said:


> Just about every SAHD on this board lives in a virtually loveless marriage filled with hatred and emotional abuse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because this is the point of this board. Every BS on this board lives in a "virtually loveless marriage filled with hatred and emotional abuse". Every SAHD on this board, maybe... But every SAHD everywhere? I don't think so.


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## Garm

theroad said:


> So you say and think. Your WW just got smarter and now has learned how to better hide her next affair.
> 
> You have been told how a wife loses respect for a SAHD.
> 
> Yet you plan on how to stay unemployed.
> 
> Women want providers.
> 
> Providing child care which is a glorified name for baby sitting is not providing for a wife.


The only reason my wife was able to hide her affair so long is that I completely dropped my guard because we had babies at home. How many pregnant women and women who have kids under 2 years old have affairs? It must be extremely rare. I'm guessing 1 out of 1000 women who cheat.


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## BK23

Sadly,

I think that is actually a very common time to cheat. Women are subjected to major hormonal shifts during and after a pregnancy, couple that with the huge life change that comes with a young child, and you have a recipe for infidelity.

Running into the arms of another person is very tempting when all you have at home is a screaming child and a partner too worn out from caring for that child to tend to YOUR needs.


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## Garm

BK23 said:


> Sadly,
> 
> I think that is actually a very common time to cheat. Women are subjected to major hormonal shifts during and after a pregnancy, couple that with the huge life change that comes with a young child, and you have a recipe for infidelity.
> 
> Running into the arms of another person is very tempting when all you have at home is a screaming child and a partner too worn out from caring for that child to tend to YOUR needs.


I don't think so. I think most new mothers are putting their energy into their kids. They are happy to have their young family and couldn't imagine having an affair at that time. Things might change when the kids get older. I married an extremely rare breed of cheater.


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## Garm

LostViking said:


> No they are not. Hate to burst your bubble. SAHDs are biologically the most unattractive of all men. Just about every SAHD on this board lives in a virtually loveless marriage filled with hatred and emotional abuse. You just keep telling yourself those little mistruths if they make you feel better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If a home-wrecking, dishonorable man with no character, integrity or morals is more attractive in my wife's eyes, that is her fault that she has extremely poor judgement.


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## lifeistooshort

Garm, you're right that your wife would have cheated regardless of your employment status, but at this point she doesn't love or respect you and the odds of that changing are zero while you are a sahd. The odds are still small if you get a job but this way they do not exist. This is your life, to be roommates. You might be able to stop her affairs, but you'll still remain roommates and eventually she'll find a way. You have only a few options here: 
You can continue with the current arrangement as roommates and monitor her constantly. This will get tiring.
You can continue with the current arrangement as roommates and don't worry about what she does.
You can get a job and try to salvage your marriage. This may not work but at least you'll have the means to support yourself when the marriage ends.
You can make plans to divorce. This might include sticking it out for a couple of years to strengthen you hand, but understand that the hand it might strengthen is custody, which you'll probably share with her anyway. Spousal support is based partly on how long it's been since your worked and what your earning potential is. It seems that's it's only been a couple of years, and you said your had a good job. A judge will tell you to get a job. Spousal support is for people to get on their feet, unless you're talking about a long marriage where a spouse has limited options to get on their feet. That's not going too apply to you.
There's your options, pick one, because you can't have what you want: continuing your stay at home status with a wife that loves and respects you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garm

lifeistooshort said:


> Garm, you're right that your wife would have cheated regardless of your employment status, but at this point she doesn't love or respect you and the odds of that changing are zero while you are a sahd. The odds are still small if you get a job but this way they do not exist. This is your life, to be roommates. You might be able to stop her affairs, but you'll still remain roommates and eventually she'll find a way. You have only a few options here:
> You can continue with the current arrangement as roommates and monitor her constantly. This will get tiring.
> You can continue with the current arrangement as roommates and don't worry about what she does.
> You can get a job and try to salvage your marriage. This may not work but at least you'll have the means to support yourself when the marriage ends.
> You can make plans to divorce. This might include sticking it out for a couple of years to strengthen you hand, but understand that the hand it might strengthen is custody, which you'll probably share with her anyway. Spousal support is based partly on how long it's been since your worked and what your earning potential is. It seems that's it's only been a couple of years, and you said your had a good job. A judge will tell you to get a job. Spousal support is for people to get on their feet, unless you're talking about a long marriage where a spouse has limited options to get on their feet. That's not going too apply to you.
> There's your options, pick one, because you can't have what you want: continuing your stay at home status with a wife that loves and respects you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the comments. I'm still trying to decide what option to take. We've been married 11 years. I've been a SAHD for a little over 2 years. She earns over double the money I was earning when I worked. I think that puts me in a good position in a divorce.


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## wilderness

Well I think you are doing the right thing and I certainly think you have the right attitude.
In my opinion you are doing great.


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## LongWalk

Garm,

Jerry123 is a good example for you. Why? He is having sex and has broken his wife's disrespectful pattern. Let us be honest. Modern relationships are complicated by many things. However at bottom a woman is happy if she gets a good pounding. A hard spank while having rough sex is just a turn on when there is yin-yang balance. You will never recover affection and respect by emasculating yourself. 

Read Jerry's thread. Also, Southsideirish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123

My situation is a little different than yours Garm but still I had to change myself to change my wife. If I did not then my wife would have kept being disrespectful to me. 

I have no proof that my wife has ever cheated on me. If I did find out she cheated I would divorce her in a heartbeat. Heck, I was ready to divorce just based on her being disrespectful. 

2 years ago I was an overweight, beta SAHD. We had sex probably once a month. No BJ's, no variety, and no initiating by her. 

I came here for advice on a few things...read MMSG and worked hard at changing myself. It's all about attitude and confidence. Plus not taking crap from anyone especially my wife. 


Oh, and to the post about SAHD being the most unattractive of all men, well I've been hit on by SAHM-women a few times. And they know I'm married. 


Garm, in my opinion your wife is not worth the effort. You are in a very tough spot and only you can change it. It must be horrible to live like that with your wife. 

I know you love your kids but having them grow up in a marriage like yours is not good. They are young but they pick up on a lot of things and to see how you and your wife interact is not healthy for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## life101

Once a cheater, always a cheater. A cheater will only stay in a relationship if there is not enough suitable outside options. A cheater doesn't suddenly get reformed by some diving magic. Nature doesn't progress in jumps.


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## Chaparral

Garm said:


> I don't care what my wife wants at this point. Apparently she wants a home-wrecking scumbag. SAHDs are much more attractive than men who destroy families with babies.


According to your wife and the wives of quite a few sahds on these threads, your statement is totally wrong.

Have you read MMSLP? I'm simply seeing a person that does not consider a point of view that he doesn't see supporting his own point of view.

I've also seen you getting advice that hasn't worked for the fellow posting it.


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## turnera

What garm means is that HE is more proud to be a SAHD than a scumbag. So HE assumes that's what women want. Which is fine. As long as he doesn't keep chasing a woman who doesn't believe it.


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## theroad

Garm said:


> The only reason my wife was able to hide her affair so long is that I completely dropped my guard because we had babies at home. How many pregnant women and women who have kids under 2 years old have affairs? It must be extremely rare. I'm guessing 1 out of 1000 women who cheat.


The ones knocked up by the OM.

Time to DNA test the kids.


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## theroad

Garm said:


> If a home-wrecking, dishonorable man with no character, integrity or morals is more attractive in my wife's eyes, that is her fault that she has extremely poor judgement.


Not blaming you for your WW having an affair.

Though as Machiavelli says: you have been working steadily to lower your sex rank rating for years. Setting the table for an OM to come and feast on your WW.

You made it easy for OM to say you can have me steak, or your BH hamburger.


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## theroad

Garm said:


> Thanks for the comments. I'm still trying to decide what option to take. We've been married 11 years. I've been a SAHD for a little over 2 years. She earns over double the money I was earning when I worked. I think that puts me in a good position in a divorce.


Society as a whole has no respect for a man that relies on a woman to support him.

You need to stand up, man up, get a job, out of the home, that pays you, not living off of your WW.


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## Hardtohandle

Garm in many ways, even though you completely hate to admit it.. You still hold your wife on a pedestal. Deep down beyond all this BS your spewing you still love her.

Trust me we have all been there.. I know I have and in some ways still am. The difference with many people here is how they learn if anything how to deal with this situation. 

For ME, I think I probably hit rock bottom much faster then many men here. Trust me being a cop for almost 24 years now, you would think I seen it all. I had 2 partners killed in the line of duty. Seen many horrible things, but absolutely NOTHING prepared me for my wife leaving me. I literally was like a man coming out of a collapsed building. I was in shock and disbelief. 

BUT 

I think the other difference here is I had a lot of support from co workers, friends, family people here on TAM. What I noticed is that many from all angles where pretty much saying the same things. Oddly enough though my family is very small, Just my mom and brother. They both went through there own affair issues. My mom about 33 years ago and my brother 4 or 5 years ago. My dad left and never came back. 

The next thing was a Girl Friend, it was tumultuous relationship with both of us having some sort of issues. But in your 40s who the fvck doesn't I think. 

But honestly getting laid really helped.. 

For me being with my wife for 19 years and 14 years married it has taken me 8 months to not think about her that much at all and I can function much better. 

In the beginning of my relationship with the GF I was honestly half in and half out. Part of me was waiting for my wife to come knocking on my door and the other part I wanted to move on. 

It caused me a lot of stress and retarded issues with the GF.. But something happen during our last break up and eventual getting back together. Something just snapped in me. 

I felt like I was dating again. I didn't have that stress of half in and half out. 

The GF asked me what will happen to her if my ex comes back. And that is when I had my Epiphany. 

I no longer had my wife on a pedestal anymore. 

I retorted back to the GF

*"What about me ? When does bobby matter ? When does it matter WTF what I want ? Why is it that I just have to sit here and accept her coming back ? Why is it that I should have to feel like I should bow down on the floor and thank my lucky stars that my wife came to her senses and graced me with her presences and that I should feel fortunate and be happy to take her back ?..."* 

*"No, I',m fvcking done with that. I tried.. I would have ate sh1t off the floor if she asked me. I would have chopped off my right arm for her. I would have done anything to get her back. To fix this for my family and my kids. But she didn't care and on top of this she treated me like total sh1t while she was deciding when to leave me. 

No, I can't. I refuse to. I can't do this to myself anymore. I can't do this to my kids.. I wouldn't survive another instance of this happening again. It's just too much for my kids and me."*

I don't know why it took me about 7 to 8 months to think more clearly.. Maybe the COP mentality kicked in eventually. Maybe it was all the support. Maybe it was both. 

I will tell you my friend was telling me issues about his divorce and I used that stuff to protect myself in mine. Maybe I am fortunate to see someone else get burned with a match, that I don't need to do it myself to see. 

I have no rats a$$ clue how long it will take you. But I can tell you to me at least I it sounds like deep down where you truly hate to admit it your still pining for your wife and you hate it on some level. 

Again trust me its okay we all have been there or are still there. But you need to be honest with yourself so you can truly get to the bottom of your issues and find your way out of this mess.

As far as being a stay at home dad. Look the courts are starting to see that its not all about giving the kids to the moms. But it also doesn't mean being a SAHD will put things in your favor. It can also turn against you. Heck her lawyer could put forth a good fight about day care and have you pay half. So you could see yourself being told that was nice that you were a SAHD, but now you need to go to work to pay half the day care. 

Look my STBXW is a Dental Hygienist she is probably making 45 to 46 an hour now, I make I think 48. She first didn't understand that I can take a piece of her licenses and she thought because she didn't work 40 hours a week that they wouldn't calculate it her salary that way. She thought they would only take into consideration the 10 to 12 hours a week she is actually is working. 

Further she didn't think that because her name was not on the mortgage that she wasn't liable for the debt. 

Nutshell I knew and her lawyer instructed her as well that she was. She came home that day singing a different tune then when she started before going to the lawyer.

Again my point don't think because your the underdog in a sense that the judge will in your favor. You surely cannot hide behind the kids and make your point that someone has to watch your kids and that your the best choice for watching your kids 5 days a week. 

It might make a decent reason to have primary custody, meaning the kids will be living with you. But don't hold your breath that being a SAHD is gonna save you. 

Divorces are nothing more then business transactions. Both will have joint custody and they will live with someone while another gets visitation rights. Unless you do the they live with me half a year and her half a year and no one gets child support.

Infidelity / Affair does nothing in most states except when the Betrayed spouse can prove that the affair caused the Wayward spouse to abandon her children in some way. Even then its tough because it will be your word against hers and she would deny anything you say as a lie, if she was smart.

My wife faked our 4 month Reconciliation before leaving me and the kids pretty much over night.

Again this sh1t happens and trying to reconcile doesn't always mean they want to. 

If anything hindsight being 20/20. I can tell you I would rather be getting the divorce and her moving out and THEN looking to come back afterwards. This way you can truly say it was all on her. That she made the move to come back on her own. At least the ball is in your court then. You have all the power and hand then.. 

But now you really don't have any hand. You might want to pretend and convince yourself you do, but you truly don't. 

Find some friends, get a therapist. Listen to what they have to say. Even my therapist tells me I shouldn't take my STBXW back. 

Good luck

P.S. I have custody primary custody of one boy and the other is with me 5 days a week. 
I work 5 days a week mon to fri. Anywhere from 6 am to 3 PM to 9 PM. My wife still only works those 3 days a week that she has been working for the last 14 years. 
I'm in the process of first reducing her child support and then just out right asking her for full custody. Which ATM I think she is so messed up that she will give up custody. Mind you she was never like this and she always wasn't this villain or bad person. She actually was a loving mother and loving wife. 
But what happen I have no clue and I don't fvcking care anymore.


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## LongWalk

Good perspective from HH.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Garm

Thanks Hardtohandle and others for the comments. My wife is very lucky that I didn't divorce her after Dday. We have a lot of assets and I am the primary caregiver to our kids. She has a lot to lose in a divorce. She knows this. That is why she is sticking around. There is always a winner and loser in a child custody case in this state and I am no doubt the primary caregiver. She does not want to leave me since the kids are involved. I think if I was working full time with a decent paying career she would divorce me because she would probably win custody. 

It's been 5 months since DDay and I am getting to the point where I feel like I can handle a divorce and living on my own. I really don't want to give up my lifestyle because I know it will be tough for me in a divorce financially for the long term. A divorce would require some drastic changes for me and that is a little scary to think about. I'll try to stay in the marriage for a while, and if we split up in the future at least we will have more equity in the house and have more in our retirement savings.


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## lifeistooshort

It sounds like maybe you've accepted that you have a loveless, roommate marriage. You're going to have to make financial changes eventually, that writing is on the wall, but your plan of sticking it out a little longer to strengthen your hand regarding house equity, etc, sounds like a good one. I have to chuckle because if her reason for staying is because of financial loss she's going to lose a lot more the longer this drags on; she'd be better off to cut her losses and file now. .She should be putting all of her efforts into rebuilding a real relationship with you, but instead it's going to cost her more. Alas, men with stay at home wives do this all the time....it's the perils of not knowing when to cut your losses. It may work in your favor 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle

Garm said:


> Thanks Hardtohandle and others for the comments. My wife is very lucky that I didn't divorce her after Dday. We have a lot of assets and I am the primary caregiver to our kids. She has a lot to lose in a divorce. She knows this. That is why she is sticking around. There is always a winner and loser in a child custody case in this state and I am no doubt the primary caregiver. She does not want to leave me since the kids are involved. I think if I was working full time with a decent paying career she would divorce me because she would probably win custody.
> 
> It's been 5 months since DDay and I am getting to the point where I feel like I can handle a divorce and living on my own. I really don't want to give up my lifestyle because I know it will be tough for me in a divorce financially for the long term. A divorce would require some drastic changes for me and that is a little scary to think about. I'll try to stay in the marriage for a while, and if we split up in the future at least we will have more equity in the house and have more in our retirement savings.


Don't do it. .

My friend always says he regretting staying in his marriage for similar reasons.. His simple comment is now I could have found someone who loves me and been happy today..

But again this is Garm road to travel not mine or anyone else here.. I just don't see the necessity of you getting burned with that match after we told you it hurt.. 

But regardless keep posting, keep venting. But also remember if you decide to stay much of your fighting and your posting will be circular. There will come a point here that you will just be repeating much of your old stuff..


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## jerry123

Garm...

What is your typical day, meaning with kids and wife.

With kids: Do you go to groups with kids or take them to library. I Know they nap but do you get out and interact with adults?

With wife: Does she just leave for work, come home and keep to herself? Do you guys talk?


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## phillybeffandswiss

Garm said:


> I don't care what my wife wants at this point. Apparently she wants a home-wrecking scumbag. SAHDs are much more attractive than men who destroy families with babies.


 The problem is, you aren't living with one of those women are you? 

Considering the number of affairs and serial cheating men, I'm going to say numbers prove your assertion wrong.


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## jerry123

Garm...would love an update. He's been gone 2 months
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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