# Where Did All These Weenies Come From?



## bandit.45

Guys....dudes...fellow males....

Seems like over the past year, TAM has taken on an unending parade of "nice guys"' : guys who have let their women walk all over them, treat them like trash, cheat on them, treat them like second class citizens....

They come here asking for our help and advice and it just seems like they have no clue as to what it means to stand up for themselves, have self esteem and self respect for themselves, refuse to eat scraps thrown to them from the table. Then when we do call them out for being passive and indecisive, they throw tantrums or they leave in a huff.

How did our society produce such men?

Discuss...


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## Anon Pink

Lack of role models directly involved in the boys life. Results of modern TV sit comes in which the fat husband is with the skinny wife and the husband does all kinds of stupid sh!t and gets treated like a little boy by the wife. Parents who don't allow their little prince to suffer the consequences of his action and take the fall for doing stupid stuff.


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## Middle of Everything

Women's rights

Now wait a minute before you freak on me. I mean this in a good way ladies.

Its the pendulum swinging from the early part of the 20th century where it was "me husband" "me boss" do what I say woman.

Now? For a lot of couples, equality. But that pendulum swings a little too far back the other way for some.

Its tough to find that balance of being a wife's equal but still being a man. Many men think ANY sort of dominant aggressive behavior makes them a neanderthal.


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## Racer

bandit.45 said:


> How did our society produce such men?
> 
> Discuss...


Fear and insecurity being broadcast by society as a whole. It is everywhere... "That isn't healthy! You are going to get hurt. That will kill you. Women hate that. They are going to come for you. They are going to beat the crap out of you. They'll snatch your kids. The police will arrest you. You'll be sued. You'll be hated by them if you do it. Your kids will be messed up if you do that. You'll lose everything. They are out to get you!"

Sorry, but when you train entire generations to be afraid of everything outside the walls of their home (and even within it), you end up with people making choices out of fear particularly when they feel they have so much to lose.


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## ReformedHubby

My theory is a little bit different. I think TAM attracts people like this. I won't call them weenies, I think this sight has helped a lot of men. But..... the bottom line is if you're more "alpha" in your thought process. You really wouldn't wind up here in the first place.

An alpha male isn't going to waste time in a sexless marriage. She either puts out or he bounces. Sex is just too important to him. An alpha male isn't going to try and shock his wife out of the affair "fog" with exposure, he'll just get divorced and find someone that does want to be with him. An alpha male already knows everything in MMSL and NMMNG. An alpha male doesn't google, "My wife says she loves me but is not in love with me". I could go on and on.....


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## Wolf1974

Bandit,

I think you have to look at the context here. This is a place for people struggling or unhappy for the most part. I never looked for marriage help or support till my marriage fell apart. So using TAM as a context for the modern day man may be a bit off. Not sure if the ladies feel the same way about the women who come here.

As for a greater societal examination I think that much of the men of today's world are fitting the characteristics role modeled by fathers and TV. If men today grew up seeing women "wearing the pants" on tv or mom dominating home life how could that not mold your view of what is expected of you. And don't get me started in how husbands are portrayed on TV.

I have two male friends in my life who are both VERY submissive in their marriage. Their mothers were very controlling and domineering so they didn't travel far from the food source on that one.

I can't disagree that it seems more and more that men have lost some of their masculinity. I think the raising standard has changed


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## thatbpguy

First, I agree in general terms. Men are becoming more feminized due to the increasing liberalness of our society. It is inevitable. See Europe as a good example. To be more blunt, men are not allowed to be men anymore. Us old schoolers are a dying breed.

Second, some posters on TAM are unrelenting in punishing at all costs. A good example is my recent thread in CWI. That's not being "manly". I mean, sometimes punishment is the order of the day- and that's fine. But not always. What I mean by that is some men here, based on their personal experience being hurt by their spouses, are simply on a search & destroy mission. And that's just ignorance on their part. Nothing manly or unmanly about it.


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## nice777guy

I think the nature of the website attracts a disproportionate amount of "weenies."

The guys that come here are the ones who are struggling with boundary issues - perhaps have wives that are cheating - etc, etc.

Not too many guys who have their life under control are going to just wander through here.


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## Duguesclin

bandit.45 said:


> How did our society produce such men?
> 
> Discuss...


I do not think society produces them nor do I think it is a modern phenomenon.

Some men are strong and some men are weak. This is nature. I am afraid women do not necessarily have the same luxury to be weak if they have kids and their man is a whiner.


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## thatbpguy

Duguesclin said:


> I do not think society produces them nor do I think it is a modern phenomenon.
> 
> Some men are strong and some men are weak. This is nature. I am afraid women do not necessarily have the same luxury to be weak if they have kids and their man is a whiner.


Seriously?

You don't see a society that teaches and preaches more femininity for men and masculinity for women?


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## SailBadTheSinner

You mean "Girly Men?" 

Blame popular culture as reflected in media. Pervasive running nauseous theme: Stupid slothful white males being saved by smart strong women (of various colors); fantasies of transformers, vampires, grimm fairytales--thus showing the inadequacy of mere males. And on the flip side, thuggish and reprehensible behavior and role modeling in rap music/culture. 

The handbasket is full and it's heading to Hades.


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## Jetranger

You can't win.

If you refuse to put up with ongoing crap in the marriage and end it, you’re a jerk and not a man and you didn’t try hard enough and are a bad person.

If you refuse to give up on fixing the ongoing crap in the marriage and stick it out, you’re a weenie and not a man and you need to put your foot down and are a bad person.


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## nice777guy

Jetranger said:


> You can't win.
> 
> If you refuse to put up with ongoing crap in the marriage and end it, you’re a jerk and not a man and you didn’t try hard enough and are a bad person.
> 
> If you refuse to give up on fixing the ongoing crap in the marriage and stick it out, you’re a weenie and not a man and you need to put your foot down and are a bad person.


If your marriage has to end because your boundaries are constantly violated - then you are not a bad person or a jerk for ending it.

Either way - its your decision.


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## Jetranger

nice777guy said:


> If your marriage has to end because your boundaries are constantly violated - then you are not a bad person or a jerk for ending it.
> 
> Either way - its your decision.


Really? What about all these guys who whipped a bad wife into shape and now their marriage is stronger than ever?


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## Anon Pink

nice777guy said:


> If your marriage has to end because your boundaries are constantly violated - then you are not a bad person or a jerk for ending it.
> 
> Either way - its your decision.


And only a weenie is going to allow himself, or herself, to be labeled by others for doing what he, or she, feels is in their best interest.


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## lenzi

bandit.45 said:


> Seems like over the past year, TAM has taken on an unending parade of "nice guys"' : guys who have let their women walk all over them, treat them like trash, cheat on them, treat them like second class citizens....


It's been like this over year for a lot more than the past year.

Probably since inception.

What do you expect from a forum that provides advice to people who are cheated on?

The tough guys (and gals) are the ones that say "you cheated.. goodbye". You won't see them here although occasionally you see glimpses of them in posts made by remorseful cheaters who are trying to save their marriage.

end of story


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## Duguesclin

thatbpguy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> You don't see a society that teaches and preaches more femininity for men and masculinity for women?


Whether the society teaches it or not, you will have weak guys. The society does not produce them. It does allow them to dwell on their weaknesses and forces women to close the gap.


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## nice777guy

Jetranger said:


> Really? What about all these guys who whipped a bad wife into shape and now their marriage is stronger than ever?


I still think its mostly about boundaries.

Not sure if they "fixed" their wives. I think in many cases the man fixed himself first and the wife's change in behavior followed.


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## ocotillo

bandit.45 said:


> How did our society produce such men?


I agree with Duguesclin above that some people are just naturally stronger or weaker as the case may be.

I do think in the U.S. at least we've experienced some things that have aggravated this. There was a huge social upheaval starting around the late 50's / early 60's where authority in any form was challenged and some pretty persistent stereotypes were born.


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## Caribbean Man

nice777guy said:


> I think the nature of the website attracts a disproportionate amount of "weenies."
> 
> The guys that come here are the ones who are struggline with boundary issues - perhaps have wives that are cheating - etc, etc.
> 
> Not too many guys who have their life under control are going to just wander through here.


:iagree:

I do voluntary work in our juvenile prison system.

I purchase stationary for young prison inmates in an effort to get them to learn how to read , write and improve their comprehension skills.
By doing that I hope to create a greater awareness on the opportunities outside of a criminal life, for them, because many tmes they feel that none exists _for them_.

One time a prison officer approached me and began to complain bitterly about what the inmates were doing with the stationary, tearing out pages from notebooks , drawing all sorts of pictures depicting violence and sex. he was livid with anger and showed me some of the " exhibits" he had 
" seized " from some of the inmates.
He told me flat out that I was wasting my time and money purchasing stationary for them.

I simply told him that I expected that some of them would have done that because that's why they were in juvenile prison n the first place.

My duty was to help them_ fix that problem_, by showing them a way out of that problem.
Not that I thought all would respond positively and suddenly become good , productive citizens, but inevitably, all of them would have had a good shot at it.

I see TAM in pretty much the same way.
Those who are stronger , help those who come seeking help. Not that all would immediately " get it", but , they would have had a good shot at it.


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## tonedef

I have a couple of theories actually, and maybd they work in conjunction with each other, maybe not. Men usually do these nice guy things, cater to women, treat them like fragile little princesses, because this is what they think women genuinely want, and some do, in the courting process. The woman is happy she has a sweet guy, the man continues, seeing that his efforts work. Eventually, the woman starts to lose respect for the man. He starts to look very inferior to her and it places a lot of power in the womans hands. The woman starts treating him like a servant and the man lets her. The reasons why vary. Maybe he feels like less of a man now, or the engrained thought of not disrespecting women, not being confrontational, trying to nice their way out of it. I could be completely off base but I was married to a nice guy, who I eventually took advantage of and became an a55. He was just genuinely a nice guy who didnt like confrontation. It is not the mans fault though. It is the type of woman they married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SamuraiJack

I think society as a whole is going through a restructuring. Men seem to be the victims here as women now have the means and methods for supporting themselves fully. This is a relatively recent change and men are still trying to figure out their new place in the scheme of things. The old spot for them is fast drying up and there doesn’t appear to be any new ones being made. I think this is the reason we see so many young males frittering away their lives in their early 20’s.
It used to be we had a very clear path. Graduate, work, get married, have kids, retire.

Now…with economic turns, societal upheaval and general aging of the country…we don’t have a clear path.
The old path isn’t working for a lot of people, hence the divorce rate, which is still climbing even though less people are getting married.

Most of the men you see coming in who have been walked all over were raised in the glorious wasteland of the post-70’s divorce craze.
Nearly all of them were raised by their mothers and still carry the stigma of merely “being a male”.
Since the society is now pretty much “men don’t matter…unless we want them to buy something” it tends to get a little confusing.

To make matters even worse, we have the women who are being told all kinds of different things and are pretty much floundering the same way the men are, but have a MUCH greater support system. Outreach, education and assistance programs outnumber men’s programs by 90%. Magazine coverage and advice is being doled out by the millions. Luckily that is evening out for men and we now have access to a lot of information and help. Because they can make money off of us! 

Let’s face it. 
We are in the middle of one of the most rapidly changing times in human history and EVERYBODY is hanging on for dear life.
Sure we are going to have a few weenies and some lost souls…how could we not?

Western society is getting a makeover.
What we see here is probably just the tip of the iceberg.


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## richardsharpe

Good afternoon all
Part of the reason men have become softer is that civilization has made life less physically challenging / dangerous in the developed world. There is less of a focus on strength and physical courage because less is needed - other traits are of more value to society. 

In a more primitive society, a woman often needed a man to protect her physically from other men. Needed him to provide money so she wouldn't starve. A man needed a wife to provide him with several children because some of them would never reach adulthood.

There are still some dangerous jobs - military, police etc. but most people in the developed world very rarely find themselves in physical danger unless they seek it out as a hobby.


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## texasoutlaw82

I don't know that these men who come here are weenies. Some of us, including myself, come here for other viewpoints. It's not because a lack of self esteem or a feeling of emasculation. It's simply because I appreciate other points of views and it helps shed new light on existing problems. Most of what I read on here I take with a grain of salt because only I know the ins and outs of my relationship with my sig. other. 

Just my .02


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## Racer

texasoutlaw82 said:


> I don't know that these men who come here are weenies. Some of us, including myself, come here for other viewpoints. It's not because a lack of self esteem or a feeling of emasculation. It's simply because I appreciate other points of views and it helps shed new light on existing problems. Most of what I read on here I take with a grain of salt because only I know the ins and outs of my relationship with my sig. other.
> 
> Just my .02


Agreed. "Birds of a feather flock together." That's the old way. Your buddies, neighbors, community all had there own character. Now, we're connected... That means a whole lot of different perspectives and different opinions. They aren't going to be identical... So division. 

And the division is growing wider as people dig trenches to defend their lifestyle and value systems.


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## Lon

ReformedHubby said:


> My theory is a little bit different. I think TAM attracts people like this. I won't call them weenies, I think this sight has helped a lot of men. But..... the bottom line is if you're more "alpha" in your thought process. You really wouldn't wind up here in the first place.
> 
> An alpha male isn't going to waste time in a sexless marriage. She either puts out or he bounces. Sex is just too important to him. An alpha male isn't going to try and shock his wife out of the affair "fog" with exposure, he'll just get divorced and find someone that does want to be with him. An alpha male already knows everything in MMSL and NMMNG. An alpha male doesn't google, "My wife says she loves me but is not in love with me". I could go on and on.....


An alpha male doesn't bother with marriage.

An integrated man with Alpha traits blended with other traits that are conducive to long term monogamous relationship may. But an "alpha" just fcks who he wants.

So the question is, how come so many people (men and women) eventually reject these men that demonstrate loyalty, patience and goodness? Why do we set up these people so they produce good things, then in their superior dominant alpha ways, the a-holes always come and take advantage of them, rob them, humiliate them and then call them inferior? The a-holes want other people to raise more kids like them, so that they can stomp and claw their way up the sociosexual hierarchy.


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## Philat

SailBadTheSinner said:


> You mean "Girly Men?"
> 
> Blame popular culture as reflected in media. Pervasive running nauseous theme: Stupid slothful white males being saved by smart strong women (of various colors)


Not sure if this is directly related to bandit's original question, but it is undeniable that popular culture nowadays, led by entertainment media, consistently depicts the white heterosexual male as the "odd one out" in terms of what's cool, hip, aware, cutting edge, capable, etc.


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## jorgegene

I watched an Iranian/French movie recently called 'The Past'.

As the movie developed, it told the story of a husband and wife, separated but still married. She wanted a divorce, so he flew back from Iran to France to meet her to discuss the divorce. He arrived to find out that she had been having an affair with a much younger guy all this time and didn't tell him. At first, he was taken aback and pi$$ed. But then he went into super 'nice guy' mode and not only tolerated the illicit affair, but started hanging around the house and even sort of befriending the cuckholder. I was yellin at the 
TV for the guy to at least stop hanging around the house aand acting like nothing happened. the whole thing made me mad.

I thought to myself 'I knew this was somewhat pervasive in the good 'ol USA, but in Iranian culture???'

If this movie is at all representative, it's all over the [email protected] world.


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## chillymorn

I'd like to give my opinion but I affraid that my wife would be angry and then I won't get a peice of a$$ tonight.


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## jld

When I think "alpha," I think playboys and barbarians. I agree with Lon that neither probably care much for marriage.


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## Jetranger

Philat said:


> Not sure if this is directly related to bandit's original question, but it is undeniable that popular culture nowadays, led by entertainment media, consistently depicts the white heterosexual male as the "odd one out" in terms of what's cool, hip, aware, cutting edge, capable, etc.


Something which some white hetero men have embraced and become unbearble:


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## Therealbrighteyes

Weenies? I wouldn't call any man who comes to a support website like this looking for ways to improve their marriage, themselves and their lives "weenies". They recognize they are unhappy so they proactively seek out advice from others and bravely expose themselves to total strangers. That shows they are assertive, willing to listen and wanting to change. A real weenie would never create an account on TAM and put himself up for ridicule.


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## GTdad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Weenies? I wouldn't call any man who comes to a support website like this looking for ways to improve their marriage, themselves and their lives "weenies". They recognize they are unhappy so they proactively seek out advice from others and bravely expose themselves to total strangers. That shows they are assertive, willing to listen and wanting to change. A real weenie would never create an account on TAM and put himself up for ridicule.
> 
> Instead of calling them names, why not embrace that they made a big step in their lives to improve it? They came here for help, not derision.


If I understood Bandit's post, it's not a matter that any of us who come here for support and answers (for whatever reason) are weenies for doing so, but how we are approaching those problems, especially over time.

It seems to me that the men of my and earlier generations had more of an "assault the ambush" mentality, to tackle the problem head-on and with single-minded devotion to eliminating the problem. That doesn't seem as prevalent today, although you certainly still see it among younger men.

Self-pity and hand-wringing are easy. I engaged in some in my last couple of posts on TAM because this is my only outlet for occasional victim-puking. Taking action is harder and, apparently, rarer. It requires pushing through fear, and for whatever reason society doesn't seem to teach that as well as it used to.


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## nice777guy

jld said:


> When I think "alpha," I think playboys and barbarians. I agree with Lon that neither probably care much for marriage.


I think "confident" and "self-aware."

Marriages has advantages - and disadvantages - for all.


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## DoF

ReformedHubby said:


> My theory is a little bit different. I think TAM attracts people like this. I won't call them weenies, I think this sight has helped a lot of men. But..... the bottom line is if you're more "alpha" in your thought process. You really wouldn't wind up here in the first place.
> 
> An alpha male isn't going to waste time in a sexless marriage. She either puts out or he bounces. Sex is just too important to him. An alpha male isn't going to try and shock his wife out of the affair "fog" with exposure, he'll just get divorced and find someone that does want to be with him. An alpha male already knows everything in MMSL and NMMNG. An alpha male doesn't google, "My wife says she loves me but is not in love with me". I could go on and on.....


I don't know about your Alpha male "labels".

I'm happy and satisfied in my marriage, but please don't call me "Alpha".

thanks


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## DoF

Wolf1974 said:


> Bandit,
> 
> I think you have to look at the context here. This is a place for people struggling or unhappy for the most part. I never looked for marriage help or support till my marriage fell apart. So using TAM as a context for the modern day man may be a bit off. Not sure if the ladies feel the same way about the women who come here.
> 
> As for a greater societal examination I think that much of the men of today's world are fitting the characteristics role modeled by fathers and TV. If men today grew up seeing women "wearing the pants" on tv or mom dominating home life how could that not mold your view of what is expected of you. And don't get me started in how husbands are portrayed on TV.
> 
> I have two male friends in my life who are both VERY submissive in their marriage. Their mothers were very controlling and domineering so they didn't travel far from the food source on that one.
> 
> I can't disagree that it seems more and more that men have lost some of their masculinity. I think the raising standard has changed


Yep

Personally I think it's a product of broken marriages and "me" generation.

let's face it, me and MANY people I know come from broken marriages. To top things off, MANY had ****ty parents to begin with.

Now we are at a point where lot of these people grew up and have their own kids and they give them the best parenting they can (opposite of what they got).

Up next, bunch of ****ty parents again. It's a cycle.

How does the saying go? Until you are a parent, you simply don't know how crappy your parents were.

It's true. The amount of time my father spent with me on the playground/sports IN MY LIFE is probably equal to what I do in a MONTH with my kids. Heck, make that a WEEK.

parents simply weren't very involved in past decades. Kids were kind of "toys" to fill in/complete the family image more than actual human beings that need time and attention.

Mind you, there will ALWAYS be an OCEAN of crappy parents regardless....


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## nice777guy

DoF said:


> I don't know about your Alpha male "labels".
> 
> I'm happy and satisfied in my marriage, but please don't call me "Alpha".
> 
> thanks


You gonna beat us up if we do?!?


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## always_alone

Why assume they are weenies at all?

Maybe they came here to gain new perspectives, not because they are just doormats or "beta". 

Maybe they didn't "leave in a huff", but decided the labels being applied and the advice offered was not particularly helpful to their personality and problem.

Nothing "weenie" about that.


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## Therealbrighteyes

GTdad said:


> If I understood Bandit's post, it's not a matter that any of us who come here for support and answers (for whatever reason) are weenies for doing so, but how we are approaching those problems, especially over time.
> 
> It seems to me that the men of my and earlier generations had more of an "assault the ambush" mentality, to tackle the problem head-on and with single-minded devotion to eliminating the problem. That doesn't seem as prevalent today, although you certainly still see it among younger men.
> 
> Self-pity and hand-wringing are easy. I engaged in some in my last couple of posts on TAM because this is my only outlet for occasional victim-puking. Taking action is harder and, apparently, rarer. It requires pushing through fear, and for whatever reason society doesn't seem to teach that as well as it used to.


People have different ways of handling problems, for sure. While you, I and Bandit might think how on Earth could anybody get to this point, we have to realize that all of us have different ways of coping with pain and anger. Some chose to keep the status quo and continue to be walked all over, while others come here to end that. 

I am not sure of your age but I have seen the opposite of what you have experienced. I saw older male family members deal with depression, alcoholism and their infidelities due to a sexless marriage. They just plowed forward only to repeat the same outcome. They were raised to stuff their feelings because men didn't show emotion or feelings other than anger. Today, it is totally acceptable for a man to admit he has depression and seek help for it. Admitting a drinking problem and getting medical help is applauded. A man isn't ridiculed for his wife not wanting sex with him, he is helped with tools to change that. I think men are much stronger today in many ways.


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## Racer

I've really liked Mark Mansions take on all this sort of stuff... Here's a good article he wrote...
A New Masculinity - Mark Manson


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## GTdad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> People have different ways of handling problems, for sure. While you, I and Bandit might think how on Earth could anybody get to this point, we have to realize that all of us have different ways of coping with pain and anger. Some chose to keep the status quo and continue to be walked all over, while others come here to end that.
> 
> I am not sure of your age but I have seen the opposite of what you have experienced. I saw older male family members deal with depression, alcoholism and their infidelities due to a sexless marriage. They just plowed forward only to repeat the same outcome. They were raised to stuff their feelings because men didn't show emotion or feelings other than anger. Today, it is totally acceptable for a man to admit he has depression and seek help for it. Admitting a drinking problem and getting medical help is applauded. A man isn't ridiculed for his wife not wanting sex with him, he is helped with tools to change that. I think men are much stronger today in many ways.


You might be right about men (and I'm focusing on men because I think that's what this thread is about) being more willing to reach out than before. If that's true, then that's certainly for the best. But it also seems to me that men are also more conflict-avoidant than they used to be; more unwilling to throw a monkey wrench into the status quo and shake things up a bit.

I'm 52, so maybe it's an age thing. "Back in MY day.."


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## lenzi

Therealbrighteyes said:


> They recognize they are unhappy so they proactively seek out advice from others and bravely expose themselves to total strangers..That shows they are assertive


What's brave and assertive about posting anonymously on a website full of strangers?



Therealbrighteyes said:


> willing to listen and wanting to change.


Lots of people post and subsequently completely disregard the advise they're been given because they're not ready, willing, or able to accept it.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> A real weenie would never create an account on TAM and put himself up for ridicule.


Most who post here probably don't expect to be ridiculed. 

Sorry- I don't see it your way.. at all.


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## SamuraiJack

I also forgot to point out that "weenie" in my household is actually a positive name.
"being a weeny" in my house is trying new things out and being either giggly or uncomfortable. A goof or simply playing around with the intent of eventually mastering something.

I think it takes a little balls to come here and actually state what the problem is. 
In the modern world, the Internet has become a substitute for the extended family.


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## Jetranger

lenzi said:


> What's brave and assertive about posting anonymously on a website full of strangers?


Coming out and admitting painful, private personal stuff can be extremely difficult - similar to not being able to go to a therapist or psychiatrist (who is professionally bound to keep it confidential) both for having to admit it and the personal stigma from being forced to seek help for your problems in the first place. You can feel like a failure for having the problems.


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## ReformedHubby

jld said:


> When I think "alpha," I think playboys and barbarians. I agree with Lon that neither probably care much for marriage.


Well....I reckon it depends on your definition of Alpha. For the purpose of my post its a man who is comfortable asserting himself. Basically someone who isn't passive aggressive and makes it clear what his needs are to his partner. In other words the opposite of doormat.

On a side note based on your definition I think Alpha's get married all the time. However, staying faithful is usually problematic for them.


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## Fozzy

I wonder if on some other websites people are asking "Where are all these redpill chest-thumpers coming from?"


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## Deejo

Maybe I've stopped paying attention. Hell ... it probably is that ...

But I actually thought that this kind of guy finding his way here topped out about 2 or 3 years ago.

I can remember LENGTHY posts and discussions involving NG777, myself, MEM, BBW, Conrad, Athol, Halien, michzz, Entropy, et al. (No doubt I'm missing some folks, my mind is like a sieve) Again, I'm talking around 2009 through 2012.

There were some epic 'Nice Guy' threads in that golden age. Hell most of them are in the 'Nice Guy' sticky.

And I can vividly recall the absolute rash of sh!t and criticism that would follow every time someone would post about alpha/beta, dominance, cooling the temp of the relationship, destabilizing, sh!t tests, MMSL, being a better man, MGOTOW, captain and first mate ... 


I'm curious if most of these guys are now landing in CWI rather than the Men's Clubhouse?

I just approach CWI with a total different head when I wander into that sub-forum.

Apparently I have been missing most of our new weenies.

We do have plenty of success stories though too. I always really enjoy reading when someone has turned things around for themselves or their marriage. Farsidejunky looks to be our latest posterboy.


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## bandit.45

My biggest beef are these guys who come on asking for advice about how to step in when their WWs are in affairs, but then they passively aggressively refuse to take our advice. Then they flounder. Then they come back whining about how their way didn't work, but when we try to take them to task for not listening to experience and wisdom they get all defensive. Some storm off in a huff. 

This are the guys who make me want to chew the corner off my iPad.


----------



## lenzi

Jetranger said:


> Coming out and admitting painful, private personal stuff can be extremely difficult - similar to not being able to go to a therapist or psychiatrist (who is professionally bound to keep it confidential) both for having to admit it and the personal stigma from being forced to seek help for your problems in the first place. You can feel like a failure for having the problems.


The typical new poster in the CWI section is there because things are horribly wrong with their relationship which is rapidly falling to pieces. Their significant other is acting suspicious, red flags are all over the place, things are spiraling down.. but rather than confide in friends, family, or a therapist, or even with their relationship partner, they post on an anonymous internet forum where no one can see their face, where no one knows anything about them other than what they choose to share, via words on a screen. 

I don't see that as being particularly "brave" but I'll give you this much, it's a step in the right direction, definitely better than doing nothing.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

GTdad said:


> You might be right about men (and I'm focusing on men because I think that's what this thread is about) being more willing to reach out than before. If that's true, then that's certainly for the best. But it also seems to me that men are also more conflict-avoidant than they used to be; more unwilling to throw a monkey wrench into the status quo and shake things up a bit.
> 
> I'm 52, so maybe it's an age thing. "Back in MY day.."


I disagree to some extent. I think men today are more willing to "shake things up" because it is accepted. Divorce doesn't have the stigma it once did, same with never marrying at all. Conflict avoidance is a whole other issue though. I do see more of that now with younger generations of men than I do with my generation, X. I really don't know why that is. 

As for an age thing, the male relatives I referred to were WWII generation and WWI, my father and grandfather. One born in 1934 and the other in 1897. Problems were tackled only to the extent that it was socially acceptable. Admitting to drinking due to stress was okay but drinking because they felt depressed was not. Cheating because you were a skirt chaser was lauded but admitting to cheating because your wife didn't want relations with you was not. Neither of them were free to open up about the root of their problems without enormous ridicule. So they used a salve of sorts and just continued on. They didn't tackle their problems head on in any way, they just coped, which I think is true of most men back then.


----------



## Deejo

Best input I can give on that front Bandit, is that doing the 'what needs to be done', is uncomfortable. It's going to create discord ... and that's not initially why they come here. They want the discord that is already in play to go away. They want a 'fix', not to create more conflict.

And the reality is, that if their wayward were all that uncomfortable with the 'discord', she wouldn't be continuing the affair.

Which of course is why creating more pain and reducing or eliminating the sense of pleasure is exactly what needs to be done to reset the playing field, and THEN decide what you want to do about the marriage.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

lenzi said:


> What's brave and assertive about posting anonymously on a website full of strangers?
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of people post and subsequently completely disregard the advise they're been given because they're not ready, willing, or able to accept it.
> 
> 
> 
> Most who post here probably don't expect to be ridiculed.
> 
> Sorry- I don't see it your way.. at all.


It doesn't matter if we don't know their identity, what matters is taking the first step to change their lives. Being willing to listen while total strangers tell you you are doing everything wrong takes tremendous strength. Whether they act on it is a different story but that still doesn't change the fact that they reached out in the first place.


----------



## richie33

Soy milk is the culprit.


----------



## Racer

“Emotions are not separate from reason, but the foundation of it because they tell us what to value.” (can’t remember the PhD that’s from). So, a fresh betrayed is in full emotional turmoil and conflicted. Their values are challenged and re-assessed like they’ve never had to do before; Family/marriage ideals versus me. 

It’s hard to give up your ideals and notions even with confronted with evidence they are wrong or poorly founded or just good intentions and ideals that are going to get you wasted. They hold onto the hope that the good guy will win in the end against the bad guy. 

And Bandit, you’ve been around long enough to see so many good guys get trampled…. You want to spare them that pain. It sucks watching them get plowed under and losing themselves and their pride, but I do sort of see it as a rite of passage….. For some, like me, it takes getting trampled, abused, and kicked in the teeth to really want to change for yourself. Fidelity alone isn’t enough to shatter their ideals of marriage and family. Their idols were martyrs and those who sacrifice. It’s really only much later when you start truly assessing character that it starts sinking in that you’ll never reach your ideal with that person and for their waywards: You are the sacrifice they are willing to take… they won’t sacrifice a thing when you are so willing to do so for them instead.


----------



## SpinDaddy

bandit.45 said:


> My biggest beef are these guys who come on asking for advice about how to step in when their WWs are in affairs, but then they passively aggressively refuse to take our advice. Then they flounder. Then they come back whining about how their way didn't work, but when we try to take them to task for not listening to experience and wisdom they get all defensive. Some storm off in a huff.
> 
> This are the guys who make me want to chew the corner off my iPad.


Appreciate the sentiment in the above however I also appreciate that oftentimes the advice and opinions which are doled out here can be shortsighted, emotional and reactionary. 

But I find roughly the same amount of men and women for whom the Ann Lander’s expression “Wake up and smell the coffee” is equally applicable.


----------



## Deejo

richie33 said:


> Soy milk is the culprit.


Damn straight! It's givin' men-folk estro-jeans and man-boobs.


----------



## bandit.45

SpinDaddy said:


> Appreciate the sentiment in the above however I also appreciate that oftentimes the advice and opinions which are doled out here can be shortsighted, emotional and reactionary.
> 
> But I find roughly the same amount of men and women for whom the Ann Lander’s expression “Wake up and smell the coffee” is equally applicable.


Your avatar is goofy.


----------



## the guy

I used to let my scrapes hit the floor before I ate them...now I can catch the scrapes in mid air.

I'm getting more alpha every day.

That and I leave the toilet set up no matter how many time my old lady tell me to keep it down. Hell she's lucky I don't rip the damn thing off the bowl and make her hover over it. That and its a lot easier to drink the water with the seat up!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> And I can vividly recall the absolute rash of sh!t and criticism that would follow every time someone would post about alpha/beta, dominance, cooling the temp of the relationship, destabilizing, sh!t tests, MMSL, being a better man, MGOTOW, captain and first mate ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We do have plenty of success stories though too. I always really enjoy reading when someone has turned things around for themselves or their marriage...


Some people just hate the idea of success, especially when they aren't the ones benefiting .

I can only feel sorry for them.

But no matter how some try to spin it around or turn it upside down, you just can't beat success.

There are different paths to success.


----------



## Deejo

Caribbean Man said:


> Some people just hate the idea of success, especially when they aren't the ones benefiting .
> 
> I can only feel sorry for them.
> 
> But no matter how some try to spin it around or turn it upside down, you just can't beat success.
> 
> *There are different paths to success.*


That is the absolute truth.


----------



## ocotillo

richie33 said:


> Soy milk is the culprit.


..and beer


----------



## heartsbeating

bandit.45 said:


> Some storm off in a huff.


oh, is there an emoticon for this?


----------



## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> oh, is there an emoticon for this?


Yes, but it definitely sends a mixed message.

:bunny:


----------



## heartsbeating

bandit.45 said:


> They come here asking for our help and advice and it just seems like they have no clue as to what it means to stand up for themselves, have self esteem and self respect for themselves, refuse to eat scraps thrown to them from the table. Then when we do call them out for being passive and indecisive, they throw tantrums or they leave in a huff.


I think there's a variety of ways that someone can approach breaking the mold they're in. Maybe this forum is the starting point that begins to challenge what they know. If someone doesn't accept the advise or make changes, I don't think it means change won't occur for them, it's just where they're at in their journey at that particular time. Whereas others may already be prepared for the light-bulb moment to occur. 

Essentially challenging someone's identity, what they know, the coping mechanisms they've developed, is rarely something that can happen quickly. And who are anonymous people on TAM to be listened to in the first place? I'm not suggesting help can't be received here - I'm here, aren't I? But I personally wouldn't judge someone as a 'weenie' for figuring out their life stuff, whether they are ready to hear it or not, whether this is the method and timing for them or not.


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> Yes, but it definitely sends a mixed message.
> 
> :bunny:


Here's what I think of your mixed message!

:flowerkitty:


----------



## Fozzy

heartsbeating said:


> I think there's a variety of ways that someone can approach breaking the mold they're in. Maybe this forum is the starting point that begins to challenge what they know. If someone doesn't accept the advise or make changes, I don't think it means change won't occur for them, it's just where they're at in their journey at that particular time. Whereas others may already be prepared for the light-bulb moment to occur.
> 
> Essentially challenging someone's identity, what they know, the coping mechanisms they've developed, is rarely something that can happen quickly. And who are anonymous people on TAM to be listened to in the first place? I'm not suggesting help can't be received here - I'm here, aren't I? But I personally wouldn't judge someone as a 'weenie' for figuring out their life stuff, whether they are ready to hear it or not, whether this is the method and timing for them or not.


Truth


----------



## SpinDaddy

bandit.45 said:


> Your avatar is goofy.


A weenie avitar no doubt.


----------



## over20

chillymorn said:


> I'd like to give my opinion but I affraid that my wife would be angry and then I won't get a peice of a$$ tonight.


chilly you are NO WEENIE but a BEER BRATWURST!


----------



## Mostlycontent

nice777guy said:


> I think the nature of the website attracts a disproportionate amount of "weenies."
> 
> The guys that come here are the ones who are struggling with boundary issues - perhaps have wives that are cheating - etc, etc.
> 
> Not too many guys who have their life under control are going to just wander through here.



I think this is partially true. Many here, myself included, have good marriages, so we're not really struggling with "boundary issues" and the like. We might occasionally have regular day to day marriage issues though and enjoy reading the forums.

I don't think everybody here is in some sort of marital crisis mode. Maybe on CWI but not most of the other forums. I enjoy the banter and perspectives and a lot of the topics are interesting reads.

I also enjoy giving my opinion on things from time to time as a person that has been married for a long time. It takes all kinds to make a place interesting.

I think there are a lot more "Alpha" types, "Sigma" types and no nonsense guys around here than you give us credit for.


----------



## Mostlycontent

DoF said:


> Yep
> 
> Personally I think it's a product of broken marriages and "me" generation.
> 
> let's face it, me and MANY people I know come from broken marriages. To top things off, MANY had ****ty parents to begin with.
> 
> Now we are at a point where lot of these people grew up and have their own kids and they give them the best parenting they can (opposite of what they got).
> 
> Up next, bunch of ****ty parents again. It's a cycle.
> 
> How does the saying go? Until you are a parent, you simply don't know how crappy your parents were.
> 
> It's true. The amount of time my father spent with me on the playground/sports IN MY LIFE is probably equal to what I do in a MONTH with my kids. Heck, make that a WEEK.
> 
> parents simply weren't very involved in past decades. Kids were kind of "toys" to fill in/complete the family image more than actual human beings that need time and attention.
> 
> Mind you, there will ALWAYS be an OCEAN of crappy parents regardless....



This is right on the money. I remember over-hearing my mother talking with my aunt one day when I was a kid. They made the comment that children were to be seen and not heard. Believe it or not, that was a fairly prevalent attitude towards kids in those days.

Like you, I spend way more time with my boys than my father ever spent with me. He viewed us children as a burden while I actually enjoy the company of my kids. Go figure. 

I think it was sad how so many kids were treated in those days and likely led to the "me" generation. I think it's a natural thing to become self centered when the attitudes towards children were what they were in the 60s and 70s.

Now that my dad is much, much older, i think he'd like to be closer with his children and grandchildren but he made no effort to establish real connection years ago so that opportunity is lost. I swore that that would never happen to me with my kids.


----------



## Mostlycontent

SamuraiJack said:


> I think society as a whole is going through a restructuring. Men seem to be the victims here as women now have the means and methods for supporting themselves fully. This is a relatively recent change and men are still trying to figure out their new place in the scheme of things. The old spot for them is fast drying up and there doesn’t appear to be any new ones being made. I think this is the reason we see so many young males frittering away their lives in their early 20’s.
> It used to be we had a very clear path. Graduate, work, get married, have kids, retire.
> 
> Now…with economic turns, societal upheaval and general aging of the country…we don’t have a clear path.
> The old path isn’t working for a lot of people, hence the divorce rate, which is still climbing even though less people are getting married.
> 
> Most of the men you see coming in who have been walked all over were raised in the glorious wasteland of the post-70’s divorce craze.
> Nearly all of them were raised by their mothers and still carry the stigma of merely “being a male”.
> Since the society is now pretty much “men don’t matter…unless we want them to buy something” it tends to get a little confusing.
> 
> To make matters even worse, we have the women who are being told all kinds of different things and are pretty much floundering the same way the men are, but have a MUCH greater support system. Outreach, education and assistance programs outnumber men’s programs by 90%. Magazine coverage and advice is being doled out by the millions. Luckily that is evening out for men and we now have access to a lot of information and help. Because they can make money off of us! 
> 
> Let’s face it.
> We are in the middle of one of the most rapidly changing times in human history and EVERYBODY is hanging on for dear life.
> Sure we are going to have a few weenies and some lost souls…how could we not?
> 
> Western society is getting a makeover.
> What we see here is probably just the tip of the iceberg.


You make some interesting points. You would think that men would gravitate more to the role of protector since the provider role is not as necessary because of more economic equality. This should mean that men should want to be tougher instead of becoming more femanized.

Only problem is that now you can be sued for verbally threatening somebody , let alone striking them. I grew up watching Sean Connery as 007 and old John Wayne movies where the tough guys were admired and imitated. They showed no weakness. Now those tough guys would just be arrested.

Society has tried its best to water down masculinity and couple that with many children being raised without fathers and you can see how it has harmed men.


----------



## Personal

bandit.45 said:


> My biggest beef are these guys who come on asking for advice about how to step in when their WWs are in affairs, but then they passively aggressively refuse to take our advice. Then they flounder. Then they come back whining about how their way didn't work, but when we try to take them to task for not listening to experience and wisdom they get all defensive. Some storm off in a huff.
> 
> This are the guys who make me want to chew the corner off my iPad.


Unfortunately for them, those guys are their own worst enemy, and such behaviour is more of the same that in part has brought them unstuck in their marital relationships.


----------



## Racer

Personal said:


> I'm one of those who immediately said goodbye ...
> 
> 
> Yet I am posting here without marital or esteem problems!


You don’t have marital problems? Um… your marriage crashed and burned. It doesn’t get any worse than ‘no longer exist’. 

I feel great about myself too because I don’t have pesky Leer jet issues to bother me. It’s done wonders for my self-esteem. What I save on the maintenance alone just leaves me so much more to do what I want… :bunny:

Honestly, it is a great perception…. It’s just a bit smoke and mirrors though isn’t it?


----------



## Mostlycontent

Personal said:


> I've now been happily married for over 15 years, to my lovely 2nd wife who I've had a terrific relationship with for over 18 years.
> 
> So no smoke and mirrors or marital problems either.



So there was a happy ending. As I stated earlier, not everyone here has marital issues and wouldn't be classified as "weenies". If we all were that way, just who would the newcomers interact with to get advice?

The blind leading the blind. It wouldn't be pretty.


----------



## Deejo

We indeed need men that can articulate what fulfills them, and makes their marriage successful.

TAM needs those guys, and their wives to share here. 

Everyone loves a train-wreck.

Thats why at any given time, the eyeballs on CWI or 2 to 6 times higher than those on Long Term Success in Marriage.

I've been here a looong time. I still love reading success stories.


----------



## Ikaika

Deejo said:


> We indeed need men that can articulate what fulfills them, and makes their marriage successful.
> 
> TAM needs those guys, and their wives to share here.
> 
> Everyone loves a train-wreck.
> 
> Thats why at any given time, the eyeballs on CWI or 2 to 6 times higher than those on Long Term Success in Marriage.
> 
> I've been here a looong time. I still love reading success stories.



I can tell you from a personal point of view, true stories in the LTSiM forum attracts only crickets. I have shared, but I would be willing to wager less than 2% of TAM has read it or cares. You are right and it is sad that train wrecks are more interesting. So we go on with what works with no reality TV show flair. Nothing perfect, but then again perfect is boring.


----------



## jaquen

Personal said:


> Yet I am posting here without marital or esteem problems!
> 
> I found this website doing a google search for discussions about one of my non-vanilla sexual interests and found I liked some of the discussions here.



:rofl:

That's exactly how I found TAM. Then, since I enjoy talking about a number of topics, Marriage being one of them, I stuck around. I was here for quite awhile before I realized that TAM was the land of broken marriages and most people here assumed that everyone else that landed here did so because they were in a bad marriage, or a marriage heading that way. But my marriage was incredible the day I arrived and it remains so.

I think this website is in desperate need of more posters in great marriages.


----------



## OhGeesh

The flip side of that is the 40yr old tubby, 1/2 bald, out of shape, ex highschool football player who thinks he is God's gift to women still and totally oblivious to what everyone else see's


----------



## Lordhavok

Lots of guys have just lost their b*lls. Its their dumbass fault for coddling up to the feminist views and such. Cant blame feminist though, these "weenies" are the ones who went along with it.


----------



## missthelove2013

bandit.45 said:


> Guys....dudes...fellow males....
> 
> Seems like over the past year, TAM has taken on an unending parade of "nice guys"' : guys who have let their women walk all over them, treat them like trash, cheat on them, treat them like second class citizens....
> 
> They come here asking for our help and advice and it just seems like they have no clue as to what it means to stand up for themselves, have self esteem and self respect for themselves, refuse to eat scraps thrown to them from the table. Then when we do call them out for being passive and indecisive, they throw tantrums or they leave in a huff.
> 
> How did our society produce such men?
> 
> Discuss...


womens lib...eqiality is great and all, but too many PC men trying to be progressive and such

not saying we should go back to clubbing women over the head and dragging them into the cave, or that they should be barefoot and pregnant, or that they cant work or have careers LOL...its just weve allowed them to push themselves into the same roll as men, and many are now resentful they have to work and cant stay home with the kids, roles have reversed and men are resentful they are stuck home doing "womens work" while the wife has a career...lots of things happening, generally speaking of course

My coworker, was laid off for a year, in that time his college degreed wife went back to work, resumed her career...he got called back and she decided she wanted a career, so they both worked, paid for daycare until fulltime school kicked in, made it work for years...she fvcks her boss, and blames him for not being a good provider, resentful she had to g back to work, he was mad at her because he had to work full time, and still help with laundry cooking cleaning wiping snotty noses...alot of their problems were tied to pre-conceived "mans roles" and "womens roles"...bottom line is she is a whoor and he was wise enough to unload that fat mess...:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## john117

Corporate America.

After being a yes man for 10 hours a day the last Weenies want is to rock the boat at home.


----------



## Entropy3000

Jetranger said:


> You can't win.
> 
> If you refuse to put up with ongoing crap in the marriage and end it, you’re a jerk and not a man and you didn’t try hard enough and are a bad person.
> 
> If you refuse to give up on fixing the ongoing crap in the marriage and stick it out, you’re a weenie and not a man and you need to put your foot down and are a bad person.


A quality man sees this as a fallacy. I do belive it is a cultural induced one.

But my point is that a man who is comfortable in his own manhood, will not care what others think. 

So I think you do what you think is right either way. Not just what you think is right for others but what is right for you. 

Being a man does not mean being a jerk. But none the less a man does not let others define him. Easy to say as social programming runs deep.


----------



## Entropy3000

Beta or Alpha?


----------



## TBT

Entropy3000 said:


> Beta or Alpha?


Though I know who he is,its not on a personal level. Learned a long time ago that my physical first impressions of someone can be so off the mark. When someone's biases come into play,another can be viewed and/or treated unfairly. We can miss out on having some good people in our lives because of it. Also learned I might have to duck for waking up the beast!


----------



## jld

Entropy3000 said:


> Beta or Alpha?


Who knows, without knowing his personality?


----------



## jld

OhGeesh said:


> The flip side of that is the 40yr old tubby, 1/2 bald, out of shape, ex highschool football player who thinks he is God's gift to women still and totally oblivious to what everyone else see's


But that is who SteveK's wife went for.

The real attraction is internal, guys. Work on your inner security if you want to keep your wife, as well as meeting her deepest emotional needs.


----------



## ocotillo

Entropy3000 said:


> Beta or Alpha?


Some actors are able to slip into either personae at will. Jon Gries, James Spader and Gary Oldman can be absolute chameleons sometimes.


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> Beta or Alpha?


Multimillionaire who likely gets so much ass that he couldn't care less what label we assign him.


----------



## soccermom2three

Michael Cera's tantrum on set, alpha or beta? lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0KW4ESrZu0



Entropy3000 said:


> Beta or Alpha?


----------



## Q tip

Wonder how many Alphas have the same issues in marriage that Betas have & vice-versa. 

Perhaps the well balanced Alpha/Betas do best? Caveman with a soft side....?


----------



## Entropy3000

TBT said:


> Though I know who he is,its not on a personal level. Learned a long time ago that my physical first impressions of someone can be so off the mark. When someone's biases come into play,another can be viewed and/or treated unfairly. We can miss out on having some good people in our lives because of it. Also learned I might have to duck for waking up the beast!


I had this in mind when I posted. You can not always tell just by the picture.


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> Multimillionaire who likely gets so much ass that he couldn't care less what label we assign him.


Makes my argument entirely. I look at Alpha in context. You can be the AMOG in your realm.


----------



## Entropy3000

Q tip said:


> Wonder how many Alphas have the same issues in marriage that Betas have & vice-versa.
> 
> Perhaps the well balanced Alpha/Betas do best? Caveman with a soft side....?


This is not a hard question to answer.

There needs to be a balance. But that balance has to adapt accordingly.

If one is overly Alpha or overly Beta I see that as dysfunctional.

Personally I am all for Beta as a default facade for lack of a better term. But Beta in terms of not being overly selfish or arrogant. My motivation in life is arguably highly Beta. I value that. I need some amount of Alpha to see things through. 

Example, we having a serious issue at my work right now with a guy that is holding things up. This is killing our customer. So we are to some extent catering to this ummm guy somewhat. BUT, if we cave to him just because he is being assertive, our customer is not going to get the service they need. So walking the balance right now.

To your question, I think some Alphas can be ambivalent. They do not care about their wives. Look what happened with Shaq.

Looking back, I have been too Alpha at times in my work environment and too Beta in some of my decisions with my family. You just do not get do overs.


----------



## ocotillo

Entropy3000 said:


> You just do not get do overs.


Amen....


----------



## alonetogether8

I'm a woman, but my father in law is a typical "nice guy" and my mother in law treats him like total ****.

He basically does everything for her, to the point where it's just sickening. It's beyond normal caring for your spouse. 

His mother was a very cold, demanding woman. His father was an alcoholic. I suspect his up bringing had something to do with it.

Also, I think a lot of the time, people look for someone they know they can control and walk all over.

While my FIL is a very nice man (he'd literally give you the shirt off his back) I can't imagine him being passionate at all. My MIL once complained to me about their sex life, and I remember thinking that if I were a man I'd never be able to get it up with how she degrades him and talks to him like he's 5. Everything he says to her is "Ok dear, yes dear" He told my husband if she dies he will NEVER get re-married. He'd rather be alone than deal with a woman. I guess he assumes all women are like his mother and his wife. :/

I have a girlfriend whose husband is completely controlling. He tells her what to wear and won't let her make any decisions without his permission. I think he picked her because he knew he could easily tell her what to do. She is very passive, and both her parents are like that.

I would consider my husband a nice guy, but he's not a wimp. If I get *****y in how I talk to him, he will not just ignore it and apologize like my father in law does. 

I think most women want a man who is sweet and thoughtful, but not a weenie who can't take control of any situation.


----------



## just got it 55

Philat said:


> Not sure if this is directly related to bandit's original question, but it is undeniable that popular culture nowadays, led by entertainment media, consistently depicts the white heterosexual male as the "odd one out" in terms of what's cool, hip, aware, cutting edge, capable, etc.


IMO society has devalued men in general

What's worse is the devaluation of fatherhood

Most sitcoms make me ill

55


----------



## Broken at 20

Perhaps it is the combination of the older generations constantly telling us to 'man up,' and the way men are depicted in the media as lazy, irresponsible, emotionless oafs make us act like one. 
Or maybe it makes us not care.


----------



## Entropy3000

Broken at 20 said:


> Perhaps it is the combination of the older generations constantly telling us to 'man up,' and the way men are depicted in the media as lazy, irresponsible, emotionless oafs make us act like one.
> Or maybe it makes us not care.


Come on ... man the heck up


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Jetranger said:


> Really? What about all these guys who whipped a bad wife into shape and now their marriage is stronger than ever?


I whipped my bad husband into shape. He is so much better now. He should thank me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PieceOfSky

lenzi said:


> Most who post here probably don't expect to be ridiculed.





Yeah, I didn't expect to find a thread making generalizations about men unhappy in their relationships and labeling them as weenies.



The net cast by the characteristics mentioned by the OP and others since may indeed cover some of my past behaviors. It disappoints me grownups on a forum here to help people cope and then transform themselves would be tempted to toss such derogatory labels around.



It is presumptuous to look at someone's situation and behaviors and conclude they stem from a "weakness". We are not born knowing all the answers, and usually we have competing interests and desires inside ourselves that make the best way forward less clear.



The maladaptive behaviors of mine past and present, imo, were adopted for a variety of reasons, some leave me feeling disappointed in myself and some not. I am pretty sure none of these has anything to do with television programs I have watched, or those popular during my youth.



I like to think that a significant part has been that the "best" within me led to some ineffective choices. I desire to be a good upright man, and be a rock for my wife. I can take punches, so to speak, and have thought it must be good to do so. I was taught at an early age that the ideal man turns the other cheek. It takes strength to do so, but that doesn't mean it is the most effective thing to do. It often is the worst.


----------



## sidney2718

alonetogether8 said:


> I'm a woman, but my father in law is a typical "nice guy" and my mother in law treats him like total ****.
> 
> He basically does everything for her, to the point where it's just sickening. It's beyond normal caring for your spouse.
> 
> His mother was a very cold, demanding woman. His father was an alcoholic. I suspect his up bringing had something to do with it.
> 
> Also, I think a lot of the time, people look for someone they know they can control and walk all over.
> 
> While my FIL is a very nice man (he'd literally give you the shirt off his back) I can't imagine him being passionate at all. My MIL once complained to me about their sex life, and I remember thinking that if I were a man I'd never be able to get it up with how she degrades him and talks to him like he's 5. Everything he says to her is "Ok dear, yes dear" He told my husband if she dies he will NEVER get re-married. He'd rather be alone than deal with a woman. I guess he assumes all women are like his mother and his wife. :/
> 
> I have a girlfriend whose husband is completely controlling. He tells her what to wear and won't let her make any decisions without his permission. I think he picked her because he knew he could easily tell her what to do. She is very passive, and both her parents are like that.
> 
> I would consider my husband a nice guy, but he's not a wimp. If I get *****y in how I talk to him, he will not just ignore it and apologize like my father in law does.
> 
> I think most women want a man who is sweet and thoughtful, but not a weenie who can't take control of any situation.


Good post! But I'm not sure about your last sentence. A wife who needs controlling from time to time has serious problems. Sure, folks often disagree, but I'd think that's a time for both of them to listen and not have one "control" the other.


----------



## FormerSelf

You guys gotta read this long forum thread that someone backed up to the internet from years ago. There is a Seattle pastor of Mars Hill mega-church, Mark Driscoll, who used the anonymity of the forum to go on a rant about the "p***ification" of men. Very incendiary.

Read the posts by William Wallace II. Mark Driscoll recently removed himself from his church after being ousted by his own ministry network after some shady, narcissistic stuff...in which said narcissism is evident in his posts. LINK

Interesting read.


----------



## Quantmflux

odd that everyone just seemingly accepts the initial premise.

I say its complete BS. lots of white martyrdom too (im white also)

every generation thinks the new one is inferior/weak/lost/etc

every generation feels the world is ending

its human nature in some to turn victimization and cynicism into a religion and then project it

any discussion predicated on the ridiculous "classification system" is a fallacy from the start.

why intelligent modern humans want to divide people into absolute archetypes like "alpha" and "beta" and then pour real energy into pseudo science to back it up is incomprehensible. its like nerd "fantasy anthropology"

I mean......... "an alpha doesnt get married, he does who and what he wants! white males were once mighty alphas but have been p u s s a fied!!!!"

Seriously? Is this crap for real?

We are part of an evolving, heterogeneous, technologically advanced society and are living in a complex world more globally connected than ever. We are striving to make it a better place for everyone while also trying not to destroy the planet. Reminiscing about 150,000BC and studying chimp tribes, or creating some romanticized and artificial portrait of what 1950 looked like, is a preposterous waste of time.


----------



## Entropy3000

Quantmflux said:


> odd that everyone just seemingly accepts the initial premise.
> 
> I say its complete BS. lots of white martyrdom too (im white also)
> 
> every generation thinks the new one is inferior/weak/lost/etc
> 
> every generation feels the world is ending
> 
> its human nature in some to turn victimization and cynicism into a religion and then project it
> 
> any discussion predicated on the ridiculous "classification system" is a fallacy from the start.
> 
> why intelligent modern humans want to divide people into absolute archetypes like "alpha" and "beta" and then pour real energy into pseudo science to back it up is incomprehensible. its like nerd "fantasy anthropology"
> 
> I mean......... "an alpha doesnt get married, he does who and what he wants! white males were once mighty alphas but have been p u s s a fied!!!!"
> 
> Seriously? Is this crap for real?
> 
> We are part of an evolving, heterogeneous, technologically advanced society and are living in a complex world more globally connected than ever. We are striving to make it a better place for everyone while also trying not to destroy the planet. Reminiscing about 150,000BC and studying chimp tribes, or creating some romanticized and artificial portrait of what 1950 looked like, is a preposterous waste of time.


If you read much in the TAM forum you will see that these components are manifested in aggregation. Just like we can break down motion into components. It is the aggregate that matters.

Pure Alphas and pure Betas do not exist in nature. Instead these are used to help describe aspects of behavior.
Also a quality man can have both high Alpha and high Beta qualities at the same time. A fireman entering into a burning building to save a child must have high amounts of both.

So if you think it is about 150,000 BC or even about 1950 you have completely missed the boat on this.

Yes, this crap IS for real. You just have to have the ability to perceive over long periods. Now you specific comments about white this and that? WTF?
Kinda off topic and projecting but hey, assert yourself!!! Please.

One way we deal with complexity is to abstract and break down things into their component behavior and then realize what role they play in the complex structure. 

But like it or not, believe it or not there have been significant changes to male behavior over time. Yin and yang of course. However you "feel" about it there has been a change. For many men this is about societal programming. We see it here on TAM but it is highly evident in other forums. Shaming techniques and so on. My daughter teaches high school and she sees the efforts to alter "male" behavior. On and on. Indeed there are chemical impacts as well. But this is a huge topic as to the why. 

We also see a new phenomenon called pre-adulthood. 20 something men no longer marrying and raising a family but hanging out playing video games and so on. Not working their careers. Weenies? Perhaps. Lost boys ... LOL. Men? Idunno.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> If you read much in the TAM forum you will see that these components are manifested in aggregation. Just like we can break down motion into components. It is the aggregate that matters.
> 
> Pure Alphas and pure Betas do not exist in nature. Instead these are used to help describe aspects of behavior.
> Also a quality man can have both high Alpha and high Beta qualities at the same time. A fireman entering into a burning building to save a child must have high amounts of both.
> 
> So if you think it is about 150,000 BC or even about 1950 you have completely missed the boat on this.
> 
> Yes, this crap IS for real. You just have to have the ability to perceive over long periods. Now you specific comments about white this and that? WTF?
> Kinda off topic and projecting but hey, assert yourself!!! Please.
> 
> One way we deal with complexity is to abstract and break down things into their component behavior and then realize what role they play in the complex structure.
> 
> But like it or not, believe it or not there have been significant changes to male behavior over time. Yin and yang of course. However you "feel" about it there has been a change. For many men this is about societal programming. We see it here on TAM but it is highly evident in other forums. Shaming techniques and so on. My daughter teaches high school and she sees the efforts to alter "male" behavior. On and on. Indeed there are chemical impacts as well. But this is a huge topic as to the why.
> 
> We also see a new phenomenon called pre-adulthood. 20 something men no longer marrying and raising a family but hanging out playing video games and so on. Not working their careers. Weenies? Perhaps. Lost boys ... LOL. Men? Idunno.


Excellent post.

Lol, love the engineering jargon in the first paragraph.

in Mech. Engineering terms ,Alpha / Beta theory => Condensate Loop => " _Modules of manhood.._ " or the art of manliness.


----------



## mineforever

I agree with Entropy3000 but I also think there is an element of societies changing expectations of the role of women. I am on the far end of the spectrum so I probably see it differently than most women but I think that is key in this discussion. As women take on more and more leadership and dominant roles in society this changes the formula. Women like me are going to look for one of two types of men an alpha more dominate than we are or a beta. If I were to find an alpha more dominate than me, he would probably not enjoy the constant battle and we would probably eat other alive....most women at my level look for a more beta or easy going partner.


----------



## Almostrecovered

the whole idea that this is all evolution programmed into us is a false premise to begin with



> There is, though, no rule for ape social structure. Gorillas live in troops of around a dozen individuals with a clearly-defined male leader, who earns his position based on strength. Chimpanzees have larger communities of twenty or more individuals, each with a position in a hierarchy that is subject to a kind of ape politics. Orangutans live alone. Bonobo society is polygamous - they mate with each other near-indiscriminately, bonding with each other through both heterosexual and homosexual sex. Males get their social status from the status of their mothers, and some believe that bonobo society is matriarchal. They are capable of empathy and altruism.
> 
> In contrast, we can be reasonably sure that prehistoric human societies were non-hierarchical, egalitarian and cooperative, as are the majority of today's hunter-gatherer societies that have survived, and that human nature still tends towards these instincts. They - and we’re not only talking **** sapiens here, but possibly also antecedents like **** erectus - are believed to have had strong ties beyond their bloodline, with individuals in a group caring for children who were not their own. Members of a society who were reproductively useless - such as women too old to bear more children - would have still been valued, as humanity was apparently not synonymous with reproduction or social status. Early art venerated the female, not male, form, and so matriarchal societies may have been common. As kinship was not the main motivation for cooperation, it meant language, technology and friendships spread within and between groups more easily. From computer modelling of social interaction, it appears that egalitarianism may be an inevitable consequence of human-level intelligence.


New Statesman | The sexist pseudoscience of pick-up artists: the dangers of â€œalpha maleâ€� thinking


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



Quantmflux said:


> odd that everyone just seemingly accepts the initial premise.
> 
> I say its complete BS. lots of white martyrdom too (im white also)
> 
> every generation thinks the new one is inferior/weak/lost/etc
> 
> every generation feels the world is ending
> 
> its human nature in some to turn victimization and cynicism into a religion and then project it
> 
> any discussion predicated on the ridiculous "classification system" is a fallacy from the start.
> 
> why intelligent modern humans want to divide people into absolute archetypes like "alpha" and "beta" and then pour real energy into pseudo science to back it up is incomprehensible. its like nerd "fantasy anthropology"
> 
> I mean......... "an alpha doesnt get married, he does who and what he wants! white males were once mighty alphas but have been p u s s a fied!!!!"
> 
> Seriously? Is this crap for real?
> 
> We are part of an evolving, heterogeneous, technologically advanced society and are living in a complex world more globally connected than ever. We are striving to make it a better place for everyone while also trying not to destroy the planet. Reminiscing about 150,000BC and studying chimp tribes, or creating some romanticized and artificial portrait of what 1950 looked like, is a preposterous waste of time.


Yeah, but what does any of that have to do with getting laid?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

I think its a conglomerate of many factors:

As the population rises and work is slowly widdled away by outsourcing (the majority of our members are American/British/Australian) and mechanization, it becomes harder and harder to maintain confidence associated with working world success, and this resulting lack of confidence negatively affects the man's ability to stand up for himself to his wife.
The second wave of feminism over time has greatly increased the size of the workforce, and this lessens the proportion of income- a statistic heavily associated with male confidence- dominated by men. While necessary for equal rights, male confidence will necessarily suffer. In other words, we live better than ever, but we often require two income streams to maintain a lifestyle considered normal, and thus lessens the significance of a man's contribution thereby lowering his confidence.
As women dominate the majority of worldwide spending, advertising is directed at females with the express intent of emasculating males; doing so enables women more power over men and thus more spending on products.
Similar to 3, advertisers have realized that the most effective way to sell products are to create an inferiority complex within consumers and market their product as the solution to the manufactured insecurity. This affects women by making them insecure with their looks and contributes to infidelity among women (trying to discern self-value through male attention which is very heavily visually-driven), while at the same time it affects men by exploiting their need to maintain social status for the purpose of attracting females.
In the pursuit of equal rights for women, the positive aspects of femininity have been exhalted while the negative aspects of masculinity have been repeatedly mentioned and decried. This is counter to the reality that femininity and masculinity both have good and bad characteristics, and it is ironic since the fringe extreme of 2nd wave feminism essentially encourages women to become like men instead of celebrating being female.
Times of economic hardship traditionally affect a man's confidence moreso than a woman's confidence and we are coming out of (or still in with the powers that be trying to ostrich us into spending our way out of) a very severe economic crisis.
In times of economic crisis, many (but not all- say the lower 40%) women pay more attention to wealth and such women on the fence with their current lovers affair-up to protect themselves; this lowers the confidence of men who experience being cheated on or dumped, and it snowballs when the dominant narrative starts taking notice as well.
Men find it logical that giving gifts would make their women feel because "give nice = receive praise" seems logical, and this mentality is exacerbated by corporations advertising this fallacy for personal profit (Diamonds are forever, the fact diamonds are only rare by intentionally-surpressed supply, flowers, etc). This doesnt hold true however, and often leads to men inadvertently rewarding poor behavior as they reason being nice will make her feel better. This takes a toll on confidence over time...

Other posters here have covered other important factors as well. As is usually the case in the complex creation of human society, its complicated.


----------



## NotTooSure

You cannot lump how men get into this position all together, there are multiple paths. I know for me is has nothing to do with women's rights, lack of "Alpha" trait, or anything else mentioned in this thread. The fact you call it being a "weenie" is naive, maybe I could kick your ass then everyone can laugh at you for being beat up by a "girly man". My problem stems from basically how to interact with people on a social level. I am so hard wired in my work ethic where I am the boss and an incredibly demanding hard ass (extremely Alpha) I go the extreme other way socially to try and have friends and a wife. I almost have a split personality with people I think could be a friend and those who work for me. This hard wiring runs very deep, even my family while growing up was run like a business with no expressed love or emotions. I simply do not know any other way and the Nice Guy trait is there because you can't treat friends or a wife like a business or they will leave. For me, everyone in my life has left. If you ask these "weenies" if they are a doormat or have low self esteem, I don't think they would see themselves that way. I for one am confident and people would even say arrogant, no one would call me "beta". 

I realize that this is just my path and others many be line with exactly what is being said in this thread but I don't think there is any one reason for it. It is like trying to pigeon hole everyone into why there is depression, which this is.

The battle is identifying it so you can try to fix it, this site helped me see that in myself and as hard as I try to change the anxiety and turmoil is very painful and very real.


----------



## changedbeliefs

[Tosh]EVERY commercial's the same: Dad's dumb, the kids are adorable, and mom thinks she saved the day by adding a packet of seasoning to a pound of ground beef![/Tosh]

Being a man is thankless nowadays. You don't get any credit for being the breadwinner, it's like it's just expected. And work as an excuse not to make it to Joey's school play??? Never. Ironically, there are still zillions of media examples of guys being obsessed with beer and sports, which I deplore, but I've personally heard guys get lambasted for actually acting like one of them, if even only for isolated instances.

Meanwhile, women are f***ing superheroes for doing ANYTHING. Create an Instagram collage, and you're Mother of the Year. SAHM's are like canonized saints, for christ's sake. At the same time, though, it's like taboo to act like we should expect them to do SAHM-type stuff. Just imagine, a full-time working father coming home, and inquiring to his SAHM wife about laundry that didn't get done....! He'd be strung up by his nuts, when it OUGHT to be her damn job to do the laundry if she's at home all day.

The disconnect and disparity of gender roles and perception today makes my head spin.


----------



## Almostrecovered

rofl


----------



## Marduk

mineforever said:


> I agree with Entropy3000 but I also think there is an element of societies changing expectations of the role of women. I am on the far end of the spectrum so I probably see it differently than most women but I think that is key in this discussion. As women take on more and more leadership and dominant roles in society this changes the formula. Women like me are going to look for one of two types of men an alpha more dominate than we are or a beta. If I were to find an alpha more dominate than me, he would probably not enjoy the constant battle and we would probably eat other alive....most women at my level look for a more beta or easy going partner.


Let me throw this on to fan the flames a bit...
So, I'm Supposed To Chase You? | Susan Winter


----------



## 2xloser

changedbeliefs said:


> Being a man is thankless nowadays. You don't get any credit for being the breadwinner, it's like it's just expected. And work as an excuse not to make it to Joey's school play??? Never. Ironically, there are still zillions of media examples of guys being obsessed with beer and sports, which I deplore, but I've personally heard guys get lambasted for actually acting like one of them, if even only for isolated instances.
> 
> Meanwhile, women are f***ing superheroes for doing ANYTHING. Create an Instagram collage, and you're Mother of the Year. SAHM's are like canonized saints, for christ's sake. At the same time, though, it's like taboo to act like we should expect them to do SAHM-type stuff. Just imagine, a full-time working father coming home, and inquiring to his SAHM wife about laundry that didn't get done....! He'd be strung up by his nuts, when it OUGHT to be her damn job to do the laundry if she's at home all day.
> 
> The disconnect and disparity of gender roles and perception today makes my head spin.


Agree with this. And as a reforming alpha-who-let-himself-turn-beta-far-too-much, I have additional viewpoint to the old-school daddy issue pointed out earlier in this thread:

My father was an over-the-top Alpha quality man -- so much so that my mom eventually left. (Mind you, my dad was a good father, but a not so great husband). As I grew to adulthood, I decided I would not be that kind of a guy. So it was almost purposeful that I adopted a FNG personality and approach to women. And it worked fairly well; plenty of women found me "sweet" and sensitive enough and all that. Plus I was a good provider; hell I was marriage material. When my first marriage ended, there was literally a scramble battle for the remnants of me. I bonded with my 2nd wife through showing her my emotions of hurt from first marriage breaking up.

Obviously, the FNG attitude and approach didn't have a great shelf life, and she eventually wandered. Only then did I man up a bit, find my ba!!s again, end that marriage. It wasn't really until after, though, through this site that I found the entire Alpha vs. Beta concept and thought it deeply through how it gets applied for me in social situations... frankly only through my anger and hurt from 2nd failed marriage did I start behaving like I didn't give a sh!t, because I really didn't (without being a total d**che), sort of stumbling into re-finding my inner Alpha mode. And women reacted positively, even told me they like it. 

This life thing is quite a trip.


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



marduk said:


> Let me throw this on to fan the flames a bit...
> So, I'm Supposed To Chase You?Â*|Â*Susan Winter


Funny article, it seems to me the author has NO idea at all what it is to be a man, certainly not any man like I. I do not gain my masculinity by pursuing and/or being rejected by women, I gain my masculinity by doing what is right for me, in the masculine ways which I'm apt to.


----------



## Deejo

marduk said:


> Let me throw this on to fan the flames a bit...
> So, I'm Supposed To Chase You?Â*|Â*Susan Winter


I literally laughed out loud.

Welcome to 'equal'. Women get to share in rejection and dismissal too.

Looked at a few of her other articles. Apparently she's a cougar evangelist. She also wrote this:

9 Months. 98 Men. Here's What I've LearnedÂ |Â Susan Winter

Which despite her well written, intellectual and self-empowering articles, leads me to this ...


----------



## ocotillo

marduk said:


> Let me throw this on to fan the flames a bit...
> So, I'm Supposed To Chase You?Â*|Â*Susan Winter



I like her humor, but it does seem a bit odd that a relationship expert would not only be this jaded and frustrated, but not actually in a relationship either.


----------



## bandit.45

NotTooSure said:


> You cannot lump how men get into this position all together, there are multiple paths. I know for me is has nothing to do with women's rights, lack of "Alpha" trait, or anything else mentioned in this thread. The fact you call it being a "weenie" is naive, maybe I could kick your ass then everyone can laugh at you for being beat up by a "girly man". My problem stems from basically how to interact with people on a social level. I am so hard wired in my work ethic where I am the boss and an incredibly demanding hard ass (extremely Alpha) I go the extreme other way socially to try and have friends and a wife. I almost have a split personality with people I think could be a friend and those who work for me. This hard wiring runs very deep, even my family while growing up was run like a business with no expressed love or emotions. I simply do not know any other way and the Nice Guy trait is there because you can't treat friends or a wife like a business or they will leave. For me, everyone in my life has left. If you ask these "weenies" if they are a doormat or have low self esteem, I don't think they would see themselves that way. I for one am confident and people would even say arrogant, no one would call me "beta".
> 
> I realize that this is just my path and others many be line with exactly what is being said in this thread but I don't think there is any one reason for it. It is like trying to pigeon hole everyone into why there is depression, which this is.
> 
> The battle is identifying it so you can try to fix it, this site helped me see that in myself and as hard as I try to change the anxiety and turmoil is very painful and very real.


Um....

I doubt very highly you could kick my ass. Very highly....


----------



## Marduk

ocotillo said:


> I like her humor, but it does seem a bit odd that a relationship expert would not only be this jaded and frustrated, but not actually in a relationship either.


I read it as a classic complaint from a woman that suddenly isn't the PYT any more and has to do more than have sex with a man to keep him around and chasing after her...

And she doesn't like _that_.


----------



## jaquen

marduk said:


> Let me throw this on to fan the flames a bit...
> So, I'm Supposed To Chase You?Â*|Â*Susan Winter


----------



## Entropy3000

I never felt emasculated by a woman pursuing me. 

Or taking my clothes off.

Or jumping on top.

If that is being emasculated then let the emasculations begin.


----------



## wanttolove

bandit.45 said:


> "nice guys"' : guys who have let their women walk all over them, treat them like trash, cheat on them, treat them like second class citizens....
> 
> have no clue as to what it means to stand up for themselves, have self esteem and self respect for themselves, refuse to eat scraps thrown to them from the table.


I agree that there are men and women alike who are being abused by their spouse or significant other. It takes a condescending and egotistical attitude to call them weenies, however. How rude to talk down to someone who is trying to deal with their struggle in a positive way.

A person who is here is likely trying to sort through their feelings. Most men here are close to giving up but have the common decency to at least think through it first. Honestly, it takes a coward (weenie) to simply give up.. and that is a different kind of 'let'.

It takes a strong man to try even when it seems like the other has given up. That man can have even more respect for himself if he emerges from the mess with a better relationship or with the knowledge that he gave it his best shot. It takes a man with strong character to value his marriage vows.

As far as society goes, we do live in a time where the easy way out is accepted as the best way. Men don't fight any more because this society punishes the man who does fight back. Women are allowed to and raised to be princesses. Even more so now than ever, people have no respect for morality, for God, and it shows in the way the morals of our society have crumbled. 

Are there weak men here? Sure. A great deal are here because they have been damaged and they don't know what to do. Why is that bad?


----------



## wanttolove

bandit.45 said:


> Um....
> 
> I doubt very highly you could kick my ass. Very highly....


Hmmmmm... why does that matter?:sleeping:


----------



## jaquen




----------



## ocotillo

marduk said:


> I read it as a classic complaint from a woman that suddenly isn't the PYT any more and has to do more than have sex with a man to keep him around and chasing after her...
> 
> And she doesn't like _that_.


Well yeah.. but this isn't your average woman. This is a relationship expert, a dating coach, a published author and someone who's been on television multiple times. 

The article doesn't come across as a very inspiring professional recommendation.


----------



## sinnister

I'm one of these weenies. Treated horribly. No sex. No affection even. Barely even any talking. Can't tolerate me in the same room as her. Yet I can't pull the trigger on D.

In every other aspect of my life I'm a hard azz. But not in my relationship. I turn into a big pile of mush meat.


----------



## bandit.45

sinnister said:


> I'm one of these weenies. Treated horribly. No sex. No affection even. Barely even any talking. Can't tolerate me in the same room as her. Yet I can't pull the trigger on D.
> 
> In every other aspect of my life I'm a hard azz. But not in my relationship. I turn into a big pile of mush meat.


Then change it bro.


----------



## chillymorn

is there a point to this thread or we just reliving grade school.

my dad can kick your dads a$$.

Lame really lame.


----------



## xakulax

bandit.45 said:


> How did our society produce such men?



This is a tough question bandit there are a lot of variables at play here it could be social psychological norms could be how they where raised thew childhood it's really hard to pin on one thing.


I think in most cases bandit its a simply matter of you ether have it or you don't


----------



## jorgegene

sinnister said:


> I'm one of these weenies. Treated horribly. No sex. No affection even. Barely even any talking. Can't tolerate me in the same room as her. Yet I can't pull the trigger on D.
> 
> In every other aspect of my life I'm a hard azz. But not in my relationship. I turn into a big pile of mush meat.


Glad you pointed this out Sinnister!

It brings to mind several 'ALPHA' (I hate that term, but it's part of what we're discussing here) males who are like you. [email protected] in life but are domineered by their wive's.

I know one guy in particular. President of a large Construction Company, has written books on 'success', when he walks in to the board room, he is feared, even among other 'ALPHA' types.
I've seen him in action and he's intimidating.

And yet...........he's out 'ALPHA'd by his wife. She turns him to mush, and I mean not in a good way. She can bully him when she wants to, and she wins. She's feared to an even greater level than him.
No, I don't mean she's even half as accomplished as him.

So, I just want to point out, you don't have to be a 'weenie' to be abused by your wife, or be in a one sided relationship and struggling.

I know a few other guys like this too. What are they?


----------



## Deejo

jorgegene said:


> I know a few other guys like this too. What are they?


They need to come here. So we can advise them, guide them, reset their marital dynamic. And occasionally call them names.

For as simple as we would like to make these circumstances, they seldom are. It can be hard to let go of something your heart tells you to hang onto ... for better or worse.

I appreciate your post Sinnister.

It can be challenging to watch someone consistently get steamrolled by an entitled, unappreciative and unloving spouse, especially once you know what the other side looks like.


----------



## TimeHeals

ReformedHubby said:


> But..... the bottom line is if you're more "alpha" in your thought process....


You do know all of this "alpha" talk is pseudoscience nonsense, and it doesn't even make sense in terms of non-human primates, right?

In primate troups, betas are the seconds in command of the troup.
The alpa and his one or two betas are the top of the food chain in terms of who calls the shots.

The real story is probably better explained by "codependence", for lack of a better term: fuzzy boundaries, poor coping strategies and not clearly understanding what you can and cannot control (which, on a good day, is yourself and what you are going to do).

A lot of people in very screwed up relationships make it their job to manage their spouse's mood/behavior/etc. Oh no, she's feeling down, so I must cheer her up (with the probably unacknowleged reward being "and then I have value"--probably learned that as a kid, and nobody set you straight).

You don't have to be male, female, alpha/beta/gamma/delta/zeta/eta/theta/iota/kapa/lamba/phi/rho/sigma/tau/upsilon or omega to have poor boundaries and screwed up coping strategies.


----------



## awake1

I think society in general is focused on raising "nice guys". Men who put themselves second in anything. 

Obedience is expected and self sacrifice is the hallmark of a good man. 

Your "worth" as a man now a days is answered by the question "how much are you willing to give up? how much of yourself are you willing to give?" 

I think that's the heart of the nice guy's dilemma. They figure that if they sacrifice enough, they will be considered a "good guy" and get in return.

At least, that's how I was raised and the general attitude during my own upbringing.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> They need to come here. So we can advise them, guide them, reset their marital dynamic. And occasionally call them names.
> 
> *For as simple as we would like to make these circumstances, they seldom are. It can be hard to let go of something your heart tells you to hang onto ... for better or worse.*
> 
> I appreciate your post Sinnister.
> 
> *It can be challenging to watch someone consistently get steamrolled by an entitled, unappreciative and unloving spouse, especially once you know what the other side looks like.*


Agreed.

I've seen more women on TAM take control of their situations and walk away from bad , destructive relationships than men.

Appears to me that it is more difficult to get through to the men.

Funny think is, in real life , the opposite appears to be true.
At least in my opinion.




awake1 said:


> I think society in general is focused on raising "nice guys". Men who put themselves second in anything.
> 
> Obedience is expected and self sacrifice is the hallmark of a good man.
> 
> Your "worth" as a man now a days is answered by the question "how much are you willing to give up? how much of yourself are you willing to give?"
> 
> I think that's the heart of the nice guy's dilemma. They figure that if they sacrifice enough, they will be considered a "good guy" and get in return.
> 
> At least, that's how I was raised and the general attitude during my own upbringing.


Culture and media has a part to play in this.
Never underestimate the power of culture and the media. 
In Western societies, both are inextricably linked.


----------



## PieceOfSky

jorgegene said:


> Glad you pointed this out Sinnister!
> 
> It brings to mind several 'ALPHA' (I hate that term, but it's part of what we're discussing here) males who are like you. [email protected] in life but are domineered by their wive's.
> 
> I know one guy in particular. President of a large Construction Company, has written books on 'success', when he walks in to the board room, he is feared, even among other 'ALPHA' types.
> 
> I've seen him in action and he's intimidating.
> 
> And yet...........he's out 'ALPHA'd by his wife. She turns him to mush, and I mean not in a good way. She can bully him when she wants to, and she wins. She's feared to an even greater level than him.
> 
> No, I don't mean she's even half as accomplished as him.
> 
> So, I just want to point out, you don't have to be a 'weenie' to be abused by your wife, or be in a one sided relationship and struggling.
> 
> I know a few other guys like this too. What are they?




Some possibilities:

He sees fairly clearly that it happens, and that her behavior is wrong.

He sees himself as strong enough to trudge on, perhaps even feeling it is a moral imperative to do so.

He copes by compartamentalizing. He might be unusually productive and focused at work, even working holidays just so he doesn't have to face his unsolved problems at home.

He sees the root cause of her behavior as something she had no control over...for example FOO issues, medical conditions, brain chemistry, and so he equates leaving her behind to FAILURE to love as he should.

Maybe he broke his vows, she caught him (or not) and he figures staying is the punishment he deserves.

Maybe he fears his children will blame him for not being "strong enough to be her man."

She reminds him of his mother, and he continues to try to rescue "her" from what he could not in his childhood.

Maybe he thinks big boys don't cry.

Maybe he doesn't know how to accept failure.

Maybe there is a part of him that is averse to truly being happy, or having a satisfying love and lover that at any moment be taken from this world.


----------



## ReformedHubby

jorgegene said:


> I know one guy in particular. President of a large Construction Company, has written books on 'success', when he walks in to the board room, he is feared, even among other 'ALPHA' types.
> I've seen him in action and he's intimidating.
> 
> And yet...........he's out 'ALPHA'd by his wife. She turns him to mush, and I mean not in a good way. She can bully him when she wants to, and she wins. She's feared to an even greater level than him.
> No, I don't mean she's even half as accomplished as him.
> 
> So, I just want to point out, you don't have to be a 'weenie' to be abused by your wife, or be in a one sided relationship and struggling.


I'm glad you posted this. I know an owner of a nice sized technology company that has been sexless for about a decade now. He never cheats even though he could very easily (money works just as good as the golden ratio if you're looking for a ONS). 

In any case I think what it says is that how you get treated and what you tolerate in your relationship has nothing to do with how Alpha you are in other areas. Its all about what you're willing to put up with. Lots of guys that don't look alpha or hold alpha positions in life that probably have better home lifes. Meaning the dishwasher at your local restaurant may very well be more alpha at home than a CEO.


----------



## jorgegene

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm glad you posted this. I know an owner of a nice sized technology company that has been sexless for about a decade now. He never cheats even though he could very easily (money works just as good as the golden ratio if you're looking for a ONS).
> 
> In any case I think what it says is that how you get treated and what you tolerate in your relationship has nothing to do with how Alpha you are in other areas. Its all about what you're willing to put up with. Lots of guys that don't look alpha or hold alpha positions in life that probably have better home lifes. Meaning the dishwasher at your local restaurant may very well be more alpha at home than a CEO.


Yeh; my only reason for posting that story was to remind ourselves what we already know. 

that is that we cannot speak necessarily in stereotypical terms of the 'wimpy' guy who lets his wife control their sex lives or any other aspect of their lives.

There are plenty of 'alpha' males out there who for whatever reason do not rule their homes.

I don't know enough about the particular guy I mentioned relationship with his wife to guess why he puts up with her.
I think he actually does love her at some level.

Think of Billy Clinton. The prototype, super 'ALPHA' male.
Yet, there are plenty of stories out there (probably some true) about her (hillary) screaming at him and intimidating him.


----------



## jorgegene

There is another type of males I know in a slightly different category.

That is not really 'alpha' type but more demure and in love with their wives (or codependent) who are very educated, successful career wise, but who have let their wives abuse them.

I think of one particular case. A successful engineer. But his wife cheated on him early in the marriage and has not let him touch her for 30 years. Not even a kiss or a hug. But he stays with her.
And to this day, he still tries.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

jorgegene said:


> There is another type of males I know in a slightly different category.
> 
> That is not really 'alpha' type but more demure and in love with their wives (or codependent) who are very educated, successful career wise, but who have let their wives abuse them.
> 
> I think of one particular case. A successful engineer. But his wife cheated on him early in the marriage and has not let him touch her for 30 years. Not even a kiss or a hug. But he stays with her.
> And to this day, he still tries.


How much do you want to bet she hasnt gone 30 years without a hug, a kiss, or sex? She prolly used his money to buy the hotel room to screw in...

30 years of a man's one and only life languishing in the shadows of lonlieness and rejection; that goes beyond "abuse"- it is a complete tragedy. And why? Because she can. Because she enjoys the $$ he makes while also enjoying the punching bag he is. 

Seriously, how can anyone justify treating someone that way? How does she look in the mirror?


----------



## jorgegene

:iagree:


OptimisticPessimist said:


> How much do you want to bet she hasnt gone 30 years without a hug, a kiss, or sex? She prolly used his money to buy the hotel room to screw in...
> 
> 30 years of a man's one and only life languishing in the shadows of lonlieness and rejection; that goes beyond "abuse"- it is a complete tragedy. And why? Because she can. Because she enjoys the $$ he makes while also enjoying the punching bag he is.
> 
> Seriously, how can anyone justify treating someone that way? How does she look in the mirror?


:iagree:


----------



## PieceOfSky

jorgegene said:


> There is another type of males I know in a slightly different category.
> 
> That is not really 'alpha' type but more demure and in love with their wives (or codependent) who are very educated, successful career wise, but who have let their wives abuse them.
> 
> I think of one particular case. A successful engineer. But his wife cheated on him early in the marriage and has not let him touch her for 30 years. Not even a kiss or a hug. But he stays with her.
> And to this day, he still tries.



Parts of that I self-identify with (if, say, we scale back some of the accomplishments a bit, and give him enough affection through the years to keep him expecting a good life is possible there).

What comes to mind is:

he is a deer in her headlights frequently; disorienting
he has analysis paralysis
he has never quit anything in his life
he doesn't understand his co-dependence and foo issues
he is a master at compartmentalizing
he has never experienced a mutually satisfying relationship
he does not know what he is missing
he is tired
he is depressed at times
he is used to not taking from others
he thinks requiring more for himself means others lose
he at times believes the "wrong" is in him
he is afraid to let go and ride the wave
he is used to making long range plans before taking action
he procrastinates in general, especially on "getting a life"


----------



## TheGoodGuy

drerio said:


> I can tell you from a personal point of view, true stories in the LTSiM forum attracts only crickets. I have shared, but I would be willing to wager less than 2% of TAM has read it or cares. You are right and it is sad that train wrecks are more interesting. So we go on with what works with no reality TV show flair. Nothing perfect, but then again perfect is boring.


I'm a bit late to this party, but needed to reply to this. I have browsed around LTSiM a few times, and it triggers me badly. I wanted a long term marriage (TWICE), and it didn't work out. So while I applaud those who stuck it out, made it through the bad times (as per the vows that my two exes didn't take seriously), and were willing to put in the heard work to stay together, it makes me angry (at myself?) and a little jealous that it hasn't worked out for me. I guess I find I can relate more easily to others where it's not working out. As sad as that is...


----------



## RandomDude

Meh, part of me reckons it's to do with the 'aspects of morality' we teach our children. Selflessness, kindness, forgiveness, obedience, etc etc -> these virtues are upheld much more than say, self-love, assertiveness, etc etc.


----------



## FormerSelf

jorgegene said:


> Yeh; my only reason for posting that story was to remind ourselves what we already know.
> 
> that is that we cannot speak necessarily in stereotypical terms of the 'wimpy' guy who lets his wife control their sex lives or any other aspect of their lives.
> 
> There are plenty of 'alpha' males out there who for whatever reason do not rule their homes.
> 
> I don't know enough about the particular guy I mentioned relationship with his wife to guess why he puts up with her.
> I think he actually does love her at some level.
> 
> Think of Billy Clinton. The prototype, super 'ALPHA' male.
> Yet, there are plenty of stories out there (probably some true) about her (hillary) screaming at him and intimidating him.


There also are a lot of men out there who have been shaped by their wives ala Macbeth. Not all wives of this type need to be seen as villains, but there are indeed successful men who really have much to credit to their wives lighting a fire under them.


----------



## Personal

I don't know about other men but I'm certainly too lazy to be a doormat husband!


----------



## always_alone

jorgegene said:


> there who for whatever reason do not rule their homes.
> 
> I don't know enough about the particular guy I mentioned relationship with his wife to guess why he puts up with her.
> I think he actually does love her at some level.


There are plenty of high-powered alpha types who phone up their domme regularly because they *want* to be spanked for being a bad widdle boy. Some are lucky enough to have their wives do it for them.

Just sayin'.


----------



## jorgegene

always_alone said:


> There are plenty of high-powered alpha types who phone up their domme regularly because they *want* to be spanked for being a bad widdle boy. Some are lucky enough to have their wives do it for them.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Good point!

come to think of it, I have known quite a few guys who were getting some on the side. Most of them were more alpha types too.


----------



## john117

My neighborhood is full of alpha exec types. Rampant divorce due to cheating and some pretty awesome looking 30's and older women trying their best to avoid being the next one voted off the island.


----------



## COguy

bandit.45 said:


> How did our society produce such men?
> 
> Discuss...


You know that thing that happens when a popular white guy says "The N Word".........

That's happening to men for being men.


----------



## jaquen

COguy said:


> You know that thing that happens when a popular white guy says "The N Word".........
> 
> That's happening to men for being men.



Bad analogy 101.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

awake1 said:


> I think society in general is focused on raising "nice guys". Men who put themselves second in anything.
> 
> Obedience is expected and self sacrifice is the hallmark of a good man.
> 
> Your "worth" as a man now a days is answered by the question "how much are you willing to give up? how much of yourself are you willing to give?"
> 
> I think that's the heart of the nice guy's dilemma. They figure that if they sacrifice enough, they will be considered a "good guy" and get in return.
> 
> At least, that's how I was raised and the general attitude during my own upbringing.


I think "nice guys" became this way by choice. They don't feel like they are the most handsome, the smartest, whatever superlative you want, and they lack confidence. They so desperately want to be liked, or to make their woman happy so they can get sex and love, that they unconsciously use this as a means to an end. And they do it early enough in life so that they don't know any other way. 

Now... A guy who is confident doesn't have to be a jerk. And a man who is quiet can be confident. It's when a man lacks this that he finds ways to cope.

Lastly, there's been a huge amount of bravado on this thread. It may just be testosterone, but it's ugly. I think the men who can't come on TAM and face their issues are the ones we should be questioning. It takes guts to come on TAM and tell your truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



ebp123 said:


> I think "nice guys" became this way by choice. They don't feel like they are the most handsome, the smartest, whatever superlative you want, and they lack confidence. They so desperately want to be liked, or to make their woman happy so they can get sex and love, that they unconsciously use this as a means to an end. And they do it early enough in life so that they don't know any other way.
> 
> Now... A guy who is confident doesn't have to be a jerk. And a man who is quiet can be confident. It's when a man lacks this that he finds ways to cope.
> 
> Lastly, there's been a huge amount of bravado on this thread. It may just be testosterone, but it's ugly. I think the men who can't come on TAM and face their issues are the ones we should be questioning. It takes guts to come on TAM and tell your truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm a nice guy whom has always been generally nice and respectful to people not to get things from them but just because it's what I believe is the right way to be, and whom was befuddled more and more wondering why that never turned into sexual attraction from women. I have felt a lot of resentment over that fact. It's not that I was demanding covert contracts, but I always thought that there was supposed to be an implicit contract with the universe that if I held such a respectful attitude and kind demeanor that the universe would deliver good things.

It didn't quite work that way, but my way did yield many other positive benefits, however sexy girls was not to be one of those benefits.

Lately what I've been realizing, is that for me I had an idealistic view of courting, dating and sexuality, and that all those years I put off approaching women I was interested in was not because I lacked confidence or was shy but rather because it never felt right to me. For me to be the one to pursue felt like an act of dominance, which I have never been able to reconcile as respectful. Seeing how other men pursued woman didn't (still doesn't) sit well with me, seems like they objectify them, and flirting usually feels derogatory to me.

I never asserted myself, because I was always trying to hold respect above all else, and I have never been able to flirt and maintain respect at the same time. Taking risks means putting respect to the side somewhat. For me, I thought the respectful approach was to be myself... polite, respectful and to put people around me at ease. All that did was get me into friend zones, but it never once had a girl jumping my bones.

How is a guy supposed to respect, and desire a woman at the same time? It's impossible.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Lon - pursuit can be subtle and respectful. While I'm not much of a flirt myself, I love to flirt inside of a relationship. I think a woman just needs to know that side of you is there. You don't have to be dominant to get a good woman, but you must show some interest and be interesting. 

Do you think that maybe you developed the nice guy traits so early that you can't see any other way to be? You've said yourself they aren't serving you in your love life.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



ebp123 said:


> Lon - pursuit can be subtle and respectful. While I'm not much of a flirt myself, I love to flirt inside of a relationship. I think a woman just needs to know that side of you is there. You don't have to be dominant to get a good woman, but you must show some interest and be interesting.
> 
> Do you think that maybe you developed the nice guy traits so early that you can't see any other way to be? You've said yourself they aren't serving you in your love life.


I love to flirt in relationships too, because trust has been established and my girlfriend knows I respect her. But establishing the relationship in the first place was the impossible barrier. I've fluked out 5 times in my life, and with each one it still feels like a cop out. With my current girlfriend it only took knowing her for 14 years before I got to the point of asking her out, even though both of us were interested in each other all those years ago.


----------



## awake1

ebp123 said:


> I think "nice guys" became this way by choice.


Are you a so called nice guy? I ask because i wonder how you got that way. for me it was NOT a choice. I was told to be nice no matter what. Never confront, always get along, never rock the boat. Everyone should be your friend and all the rest. 



ebp123 said:


> They don't feel like they are the most handsome, the smartest, whatever superlative you want, and they lack confidence. They so desperately want to be liked, or to make their woman happy so they can get sex and love, that they unconsciously use this as a means to an end. And they do it early enough in life so that they don't know any other way.


After much thought on this, it was being picked on as a kid, and not feeling "right" in sticking up for myself that ruined my self esteem. When kids learn you're a punching bag, they don't quit. From memory, i was picked on from 4th to about 9th grade. 

By high school i no longer cared what the consequences were for sticking up for myself. Which in my school at that time basically involved fist fights. And a lot of them. So I did. I stuck up for myself then, but by that time the damage to my self esteem had been done. My later time in high school i was basically left alone. But as i said, my self esteem had already been wrecked. 


Though ironically, DDay actually improved my outlook quite a bit. Probably because it made me realize many problems aren't actually my fault.


----------



## PieceOfSky

I suspect there are many formative experiences that can happen in early childhood and teenage years that lead to the sorts of "nice" but self-destructive behaviors relevant here (excessive caretaking, poor boundaries/limits, making choices based on fear of losing her....).



Hadn't thought about bullying. That's gotta be rough.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

awake1 said:


> Are you a so called nice guy? I ask because i wonder how you got that way. for me it was NOT a choice. I was told to be nice no matter what. Never confront, always get along, never rock the boat. Everyone should be your friend and all the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> After much thought on this, it was being picked on as a kid, and not feeling "right" in sticking up for myself that ruined my self esteem. When kids learn you're a punching bag, they don't quit. From memory, i was picked on from 4th to about 9th grade.
> 
> By high school i no longer cared what the consequences were for sticking up for myself. Which in my school at that time basically involved fist fights. And a lot of them. So I did. I stuck up for myself then, but by that time the damage to my self esteem had been done. My later time in high school i was basically left alone. But as i said, my self esteem had already been wrecked.
> 
> 
> Though ironically, DDay actually improved my outlook quite a bit. Probably because it made me realize many problems aren't actually my fault.


I hate reading stories like yours. Kids can be so cruel and the damage done is deep and done at such a formative time. 

I am married to a nice guy, not one myself. I can't imagine the bullying you endured. Also, you've opened my eyes a bit to the reasons behind being a nice guy that I hadn't thought about before. I do hope your DDay can be a turning point in a new direction. Not all people are like those you've dealt with, and I hope you can find your way to someone who is worthy.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

I want to clarify that my below responses are not aimed to be combative. It is easy for responses to be misconstrued as combative, so its important I mention this.. Anyways, onward: 



Lon said:


> *I'm a nice guy whom has always been generally nice and respectful to people not to get things from them but just because it's what I believe is the right way to be*, and whom was befuddled more and more wondering why that never turned into sexual attraction from women.


Noone cares what you think is "the right way to be..." unless you give them a _reason_ to care. The _reason_ is what attracts women, not the "way" you use to accomplish the reason. What is the reason? The reason is the efficacy of personal will- the capacity you have to _control_ aspects of your environment (social, material, etc). Since your "way" (being the nice guy) suggests hesitation to use dominance, they "friend zone" you as the willingness to use dominance is directly correlated to the effect you can potentially have on the environment. This is why a "hot" women often has a fleet of beta males following her around- she doesn't have to risk breeding with these beta males but is still privy to all the emotional and even often material resources the beta's offer her trying to gain her favor; at the same time, she pursues dominant males for their genetic capital, and attempts to secure his resource-provision by establishing a mutually beneficial relationship (where she helps him help her, vice-versa, etc). She may "settle" eventually- especially since alpha's are often found bordering on being sociopaths. 

Females are _machines_ when it comes to _sensing_ a man's capacity to affect the environment; sh!t tests, withholding of sex, blameshifting, and even cultural norms are all tools they use to constantly ascertain (subconsciously) a man's capacity to positively affect the environment (for their benefit). While women are capable of succeeding on their own in today's world (even moreso than men in many cases), their attraction-triggers are still based in a system where a strong male is the best chance for her and her offspring's survival.



Lon said:


> I have felt a lot of resentment over that fact. It's not that I was demanding covert contracts, but I always thought that there was supposed to be an implicit contract with the universe that if I held such a respectful attitude and kind demeanor that the universe would deliver good things.


To "resent" something is to be sad/angry that it- rather than your own view/decision- is vaunted/celebrated. You resent that others with power have determined a worldview that conflicts and/or restricts your capacity to have control over the environment in a way you desire. 

The dominant narrative of society is determined by those who are dominant- whether dominant physically, intellectually, psychotically, etc. Gandhi was dominant- and he supported peace; his dominance was his mind and his message. Socrates was dominant... Hitler was dominant (and had a mistress as scary as that is)... 

Look at our society today- it is overrun with poor boundaries, it exalts greed and wealth, self-fulfillment, etc. And what do you know- people with this mentality are _*precisely*_ the type dominating the upper echelons of society. Dominance breeds worldview- women want men who dictate the direction of the world, as that is the safest path into a genetic future.



Lon said:


> It didn't quite work that way, but my way did yield many other positive benefits, however sexy girls was not to be one of those benefits.


Again, women respond to whatever nets RESULTS. Your 9-5 engineering job provides money, but she can get money from another man or herself- what she wants- what she LUSTS- is a genetic merger of her and a man whose dominance is likely to transfer to her offspring, and thus increase their chances of survival. 



Lon said:


> For me to be the one to pursue felt like an act of dominance, which I have never been able to reconcile as respectful.


With all due respect, I find this an incredibly tragic sentence. It makes me want to slouch down in my chair just reading it. This to me is the perfect illustration of how society has demonized masculinity.



Lon said:


> Seeing how other men pursued woman didn't (still doesn't) sit well with me, seems like they objectify them, and flirting usually feels derogatory to me.
> 
> I never asserted myself, because I was always trying to hold respect above all else, and I have never been able to flirt and maintain respect at the same time. Taking risks means putting respect to the side somewhat. For me, I thought the respectful approach was to be myself... polite, respectful and to put people around me at ease. All that did was get me into friend zones, but it never once had a girl jumping my bones.


I've covered why this is the case (IMO) above, but I hear you. It is foreign and some men suffer through this their whole lives. 

I often wonder if it will ever be possible for the values of compassion, respect and altruism to dominate the narrative of society. I go back and forth on the answer...



Lon said:


> How is a guy supposed to respect, and desire a woman at the same time? It's impossible.


I disagree with you here.

A woman who tries to make you feel like crap for expressing your desire isn't _worth_ your respect, time, or attention. Masculinity is not something to be ashamed of- I see no shame or disrespect in it being obvious you are physically attracted to a woman. Its not as if you are using her appearance as the only important factor in determining if shes date-able- you see an attractive girl, make it known, and try to establish communication avenues so you can determine if she has a favorable personality. 

In fact, I think it is often a tactic of women to _test_ men on the approach- if they can shame him by laughing at his approach (or if he chooses to never try because hes afraid of rejection), then he probably wasn't worth it anyway.

I say this being a man who has never approached a woman FWIW. The women I date I meet in my social sphere.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



OptimisticPessimist said:


> I want to clarify that my below responses are not aimed to be combative. It is easy for responses to be misconstrued as combative, so its important I mention this.. Anyways, onward:
> 
> 
> Noone cares what you think is "the right way to be..." unless you give them a _reason_ to care. The _reason_ is what attracts women, not the "way" you use to accomplish the reason. What is the reason? The reason is the efficacy of personal will- the capacity you have to _control_ aspects of your environment (social, material, etc). Since your "way" (being the nice guy) suggests hesitation to use dominance, they "friend zone" you as the willingness to use dominance is directly correlated to the effect you can potentially have on the environment. This is why a "hot" women often has a fleet of beta males following her around- she doesn't have to risk breeding with these beta males but is still privy to all the emotional and even often material resources the beta's offer her trying to gain her favor; at the same time, she pursues dominant males for their genetic capital, and attempts to secure his resource-provision by establishing a mutually beneficial relationship (where she helps him help her, vice-versa, etc). She may "settle" eventually- especially since alpha's are often found bordering on being sociopaths.
> 
> Females are _machines_ when it comes to _sensing_ a man's capacity to affect the environment; sh!t tests, withholding of sex, blameshifting, and even cultural norms are all tools they use to constantly ascertain (subconsciously) a man's capacity to positively affect the environment (for their benefit). While women are capable of succeeding on their own in today's world (even moreso than men in many cases), their attraction-triggers are still based in a system where a strong male is the best chance for her and her offspring's survival.
> 
> 
> To "resent" something is to be sad/angry that it- rather than your own view/decision- is vaunted/celebrated. You resent that others with power have determined a worldview that conflicts and/or restricts your capacity to have control over the environment in a way you desire.
> 
> The dominant narrative of society is determined by those who are dominant- whether dominant physically, intellectually, psychotically, etc. Gandhi was dominant- and he supported peace; his dominance was his mind and his message. Socrates was dominant... Hitler was dominant (and had a mistress as scary as that is)...
> 
> Look at our society today- it is overrun with poor boundaries, it exalts greed and wealth, self-fulfillment, etc. And what do you know- people with this mentality are _*precisely*_ the type dominating the upper echelons of society. Dominance breeds worldview- women want men who dictate the direction of the world, as that is the safest path into a genetic future.
> 
> 
> Again, women respond to whatever nets RESULTS. Your 9-5 engineering job provides money, but she can get money from another man or herself- what she wants- what she LUSTS- is a genetic merger of her and a man whose dominance is likely to transfer to her offspring, and thus increase their chances of survival.
> 
> 
> With all due respect, I find this an incredibly tragic sentence. It makes me want to slouch down in my chair just reading it. This to me is the perfect illustration of how society has demonized masculinity.
> 
> 
> I've covered why this is the case (IMO) above, but I hear you. It is foreign and some men suffer through this their whole lives.
> 
> I often wonder if it will ever be possible for the values of compassion, respect and altruism to dominate the narrative of society. I go back and forth on the answer...
> 
> 
> I disagree with you here.
> 
> A woman who tries to make you feel like crap for expressing your desire isn't _worth_ your respect, time, or attention. Masculinity is not something to be ashamed of- I see no shame or disrespect in it being obvious you are physically attracted to a woman. Its not as if you are using her appearance as the only important factor in determining if shes date-able- you see an attractive girl, make it known, and try to establish communication avenues so you can determine if she has a favorable personality.
> 
> In fact, I think it is often a tactic of women to _test_ men on the approach- if they can shame him by laughing at his approach (or if he chooses to never try because hes afraid of rejection), then he probably wasn't worth it anyway.
> 
> I say this being a man who has never approached a woman FWIW. The women I date I meet in my social sphere.


I don't care to affect the environment around me, I like to leave it as I left it, or just a teensie bit better. I have no desire to dominate anyone, no matter how hot of a woman it would attract, because it is not true to me. It's not that I'm afraid of rejection, it's that I've had to play a game I don't want to play. I fail the approach every time, because I am only ever interested in meeting halfway. If I have to go more than halfway I'm not interested, and since that is a failure of the sex test that men face, then it means I have very limited number of connections, but then at least I know those connections are something significant, with someone I'd truly consider an equal.


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## PieceOfSky

Lon said:


> How is a guy supposed to respect, and desire a woman at the same time? It's impossible.





Lon,



Can desire not be respectful? 



I am not sure what your view of sex is, but I'm wondering if maybe by having desire for a woman and wanting to have sexual relations with her, do you feel as if you would be taking something from her that shouldn't be taken?





(Dont feel the need to answer. . just rhetorical questions, all.)


I thought that way for many years. But no more. Quite the opposite.







Someone posted something rather heartbreaking recently that made me wonder if there are women who feel that if a her man desires to have sex with her, then he effective wants to just "use" her. Actually, I don't just wonder -- I have been told that by my wife...in regards to me. That too intersects with the notion that desire for sexual intimacy, and the act itself, TAKES something from the other (a woman, in this case).





Crossing a few active threads I have been reading here lately... I will try to land it back here in this one...



If one finds a conflict between respect and desire, I can see how that leaves one's hands tied; the internal conflict will subvert the self-assertive, guiltless and self-respecting pursuit of pleasure and joy with another that I would argue (now) IS proper and natural for a man (and women as well).



And I am coming to believe the healthy self-preserving way to handle my wife's ongoing belief that my desire for her is just a manifestation of "my" willingness to just "use" her -- that that is all she means to me -- is to remind her, "no, that is not it. I have run out of ways to explain how it is quite the opposite. I am not ever going to surrender my thoughts and give any credibility to your claim that what is in my mind and desire is a loveless "using" of your body. And if you can't find a way to address what is in YOUR mind that keeps prohecting that onto me, and if you cant find a way to actually WANT

to connect WITH me, then I will end our marriage to free myself to find someone actually open to love and be loved."


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## Lon

Their in nothing innately disrespectful about desire, I just struggle to see how actually expressing it to the person of your desire can be done so while keeping that respect intact.


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## OptimisticPessimist

Lon said:


> I don't care to affect the environment around me, I like to leave it as I left it, or just a teensie bit better. I have no desire to dominate anyone, no matter how hot of a woman it would attract, because it is not true to me. It's not that I'm afraid of rejection, it's that I've had to play a game I don't want to play. I fail the approach every time, because I am only ever interested in meeting halfway. If I have to go more than halfway I'm not interested, and since that is a failure of the sex test that men face, then it means I have very limited number of connections, but then at least I know those connections are something significant, with someone I'd truly consider an equal.


Clarification: by "affect the environment" I mean succeed in accumulating resources (financial, material, social, ideological, etc) that benefit the society you are a part of, you, the woman you date, and any offspring you may have.

Why not leave it *much* better? Why not make the world MUCH better for those that follow you? Why not dominate resources in such a way that results in _good_ instead of just to be selfish?

A woman can be happy with an electrician pulling in 25k a year, or a rock star pulling in millions per year- beyond just food and knick-knacks (cars, houses, nice clothes, etc), a woman can find just as much _dominance_ in a "Im me- here I am- take me or leave me it doesnt matter because im proud of who I am" as they can with a man who makes millions pulling the puppet strings of society to his advantage. Im not suggesting a man needs to pop steroids, fight with bears, and destroy others for his own benefit in order to attract female attention; I am merely saying that being resigned to not _fighting_ for your claim to life presents a _risk_ to any woman who would date you, and any offspring you have.

I understand what you mean, and I too have no desire to be some hot-shot calling the world's shots- but to attract the type of hot women you describe on an approach-basis, you must _give_ them some indication of confidence which implicitly suggests your capacity to fulfill the role of a man in the relationship. Masculinity is what a man has that a woman does not (and vice-versa)..


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



OptimisticPessimist said:


> Clarification: by "affect the environment" I mean succeed in accumulating resources (financial, material, social, ideological, etc) that benefit the society you are a part of, you, the woman you date, and any offspring you may have.
> 
> Why not leave it *much* better? Why not make the world MUCH better for those that follow you? Why not dominate resources in such a way that results in _good_ instead of just to be selfish?
> 
> A woman can be happy with an electrician pulling in 25k a year, or a rock star pulling in millions per year- beyond just food and knick-knacks (cars, houses, nice clothes, etc), a woman can find just as much _dominance_ in a "Im me- here I am- take me or leave me it doesnt matter because im proud of who I am" as they can with a man who makes millions pulling the puppet strings of society to his advantage. Im not suggesting a man needs to pop steroids, fight with bears, and destroy others for his own benefit in order to attract female attention; I am merely saying that being resigned to not _fighting_ for your claim to life presents a _risk_ to any woman who would date you, and any offspring you have.
> 
> I understand what you mean, and I too have no desire to be some hot-shot calling the world's shots- but to attract the type of hot women you describe on an approach-basis, you must _give_ them some indication of confidence which implicitly suggests your capacity to fulfill the role of a man in the relationship. Masculinity is what a man has that a woman does not (and vice-versa)..


Nope, still no desire to accumulate anything, yes I'm allowed to carve out a place for myself in this world, but greed, materialism, power all takes away from someone else. In not saying life can't be limitless I just don't buy into the scarcity model or competitiveness. My masculinity is not defined by my ability to outcompete some opponent, I have no opponents in life, only brethren. Am I a protector? Don't know, never once had to be, but I do know that every single time I've needed to be something, I've been able to be it. And yes I realize this is completely outside what most would consider the rules of sexual society. I guess if I'm not suited to fulfill the masculine role in a relationship, I'll just need to make a relationship with someone that doesn't need that fulfilled, I'll just fine a different kind of yang for my yin. (Kind of like the relationship I currently have)


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## PieceOfSky

Lon said:


> Their in nothing innately disrespectful about desire, I just struggle to see how actually expressing it to the person of your desire can be done so while keeping that respect intact.




Thanks for the clarification. I think I understand now.



I think the problem is that how the desire is received by the other is something you may be able to influence but it is mostly in the others control.



I see no effective choice but to express the desire honestly, and then let the other receive it in her way. If it turns out she sees and values the respectfulness you have along with your desire, great. If not, then let it and thoughts of her go... and move on to find a better match.


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## OptimisticPessimist

Lon said:


> Nope, still no desire to accumulate anything, yes I'm allowed to carve out a place for myself in this world, but greed, materialism, power all takes away from someone else. In not saying life can't be limitless I just don't buy into the scarcity model or competitiveness. *My masculinity is not defined by my ability to outcompete some opponent, I have no opponents in life, only brethren.* Am I a protector? Don't know, never once had to be, but I do know that every single time I've needed to be something, I've been able to be it. And yes I realize this is completely outside what most would consider the rules of sexual society. I guess if I'm not suited to fulfill the masculine role in a relationship, I'll just need to make a relationship with someone that doesn't need that fulfilled, I'll just fine a different kind of yang for my yin. (Kind of like the relationship I currently have)


You may not consider anyone an opponent, but unfortunately the world is filled with people who view you as an opponent and will quite happily feed you to the sharks if it makes their stocks rise a quarter of one percent. It is a sad but unfortunate reality of the world- you exist in a world determined genetically and ideologically by those who compete well, and thus you will not have access to the success with women awarded to those who do. 

The finer points of what you convey are simply not the things you can effectively communicate approaching a girl. It sounds like your current girl might be able to see the "alpha" present in your mentality and thats great. Again, the human experience and rules governing attraction are nearly impossibly complicated; if your mentality demonstrates an approach most respected by her as a result of how her perspective has been molded throughout her life (by those dominant enough to shape her worldview), then you can be more alpha than the most skilled playboy. Thats why "love" is not a formula and is still so mysterious to us- the factors that harbor it are so vast and interwoven its impossible for one mind or even a collection of minds to completely understand.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



OptimisticPessimist said:


> You may not consider anyone an opponent, but unfortunately the world is filled with people who view you as an opponent and will quite happily feed you to the sharks if it makes their stocks rise a quarter of one percent. It is a sad but unfortunate reality of the world- you exist in a world determined genetically and ideologically by those who compete well, and thus you will not have access to the success with women awarded to those who do.
> 
> The finer points of what you convey are simply not the things you can effectively communicate approaching a girl. It sounds like your current girl might be able to see the "alpha" present in your mentality and thats great. Again, the human experience and rules governing attraction are nearly impossibly complicated; if your mentality demonstrates an approach most respected by her as a result of how her perspective has been molded throughout her life (by those dominant enough to shape her worldview), then you can be more alpha than the most skilled playboy. Thats why "love" is not a formula and is still so mysterious to us- the factors that harbor it are so vast and interwoven its impossible for one mind or even a collection of minds to completely understand.


I think I understand your points well. I'm not really all that concerned about those who would feed me to sharks, because I just don't wade into their shark tank, and as I don't vest anything into their game I'm completely worthless to them. So be it, but I do find it frustrating sometimes that so many people around me, my community, buy into that drivel, as if certain people are actually more valuable than others.

I suppose if I were born in a third world country and did not have my civil rights my perspective would likely be different. It's just funny that I have all these qualities that relate so closely to that of a "nice guy" and that some would be prone to calling me and those like me doormats, but because they just don't buy into that mentality it's considered a weakness. If my goal was to be more powerful, then yes those traits of mine would not boost me to the top of the modern day socio-sexual hierarchy, there is just little recognition that different people have a wide variety of goals for their time on earth.


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## Caribbean Man

Estrogen and testosterone affect the male and female brain differently.
I suppose that might also affect consciousness.

Also , human beings are wired to be competitive , it is in our DNA.

Our brain rewards us for competing and winning , we feel good about ourselves and it becomes an integral part of who we are.

But competing isn't intrinsically bad.


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## bandit.45

Caribbean Man said:


> Estrogen and testosterone affect the male and female brain differently.
> I suppose that might also affect consciousness.
> 
> Also , human beings are wired to be competitive , it is in our DNA.
> 
> Our brain rewards us for competing and winning , we feel good about ourselves and it becomes an integral part of who we are.
> 
> But competing isn't intrinsically bad.


How does mankind move forward without competition? 

The greatest competition is war. War started by men. Despite the fact that millions die, technological advances skyrocket during world conflicts. Half the medicines we take for granted today were developed during WWII. Radar, jet air planes, transistors, computers, and Spam all came out of world wars. 

Competition between testosterone fueled men...The fight for land and power, has moved mankind forwards. 

Debate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Where Did All These Weenies Come From?*



bandit.45 said:


> How does mankind move forward without competition?
> 
> The greatest competition is war. War started by men. Despite the fact that millions die, technological advances skyrocket during world conflicts. Half the medicines we take for granted today were developed during WWII. Radar, jet air planes, transistors, computers, and Spam all came out of world wars.
> 
> Competition between testosterone fueled men...The fight for land and power, has moved mankind forwards.
> 
> Debate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Make love not war?


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## john117

As a European born and raised guy I would say constant home turf war hasn't done us much good. Meanwhile the USA has an abundance of testosterone and historically far fewer years of war than we ever did...

I prefer the Israeli approach myself


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## Caribbean Man

bandit.45 said:


> How does mankind move forward without competition?
> 
> The greatest competition is war. War started by men. Despite the fact that millions die, technological advances skyrocket during world conflicts. Half the medicines we take for granted today were developed during WWII. Radar, jet air planes, transistors, computers, and Spam all came out of world wars.
> 
> Competition between testosterone fueled men...The fight for land and power, has moved mankind forwards.
> 
> Debate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Lon said:


> Make love not war?




I think that both of you are correct.

The concept of war and love aren't mutually exclusive. In fact , many wars in history were rooted in some for of romance and / or betrayal.

Anger , jealousy , love , hate , passion ,desire are all_ human_ emotions , and if we didn't have then , then we wouldn't be human. Examine them closely , our competitive nature is rooted in all of these emotions.

My observation is, the man who doesn't feel _any type_ of jealousy is also the man who is emotionally unavailable , or maybe even detached.

The key is becoming aware and managing these emotions properly to create a balance, the best man the we can be.
Or like Dejoo's said in his thread a few weeks ago,
The "_ Integrated man_."

In a metaphysical sense, lovemaking is the celebration of one aspect of our competitive nature. 
The average man wants to be the ONLY male making love to the woman he desires. And so he does what he feel he has to do to keep other males_ out_.

He doesn't want other males approaching her in a sexual manner because he views their actions as _competing_ against his vested interests.


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## CantePe

I have to be honest here, every time I scroll past the title of this thread I burst out laughing at the pure brutal honesty of OPs thread title. I wish we could give likes purely based on thread title. Makes my day every time I see this thread...


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## larry.gray

john117 said:


> As a European born and raised guy I would say constant home turf war hasn't done us much good. Meanwhile the USA has an abundance of testosterone and historically far fewer years of war than we ever did...
> 
> *I prefer the Israeli approach myself *


Continuous war during their entire existence, sometimes at low level and sometimes very violent?


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## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> How does mankind move forward without competition?
> 
> The greatest competition is war. War started by men. Despite the fact that millions die, technological advances skyrocket during world conflicts. Half the medicines we take for granted today were developed during WWII. Radar, jet air planes, transistors, computers, and Spam all came out of world wars.
> 
> Competition between testosterone fueled men...The fight for land and power, has moved mankind forwards.
> 
> Debate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most species do not experience predation from their own species. Further, humans are a very social species. We manage to live together in vast numbers without enormous amounts of "predation".

The reason why the greatest technical advances often take place during wartime is that the emphasis is on the project, not the bottom line. And during war governments spend money like there is no tomorrow, because if the war is lost, there may not be a tomorrow for the government.


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## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> How does mankind move forward without competition?
> 
> The greatest competition is war. War started by men. Despite the fact that millions die, technological advances skyrocket during world conflicts. Half the medicines we take for granted today were developed during WWII. Radar, jet air planes, transistors, computers, and Spam all came out of world wars.
> 
> Competition between testosterone fueled men...The fight for land and power, has moved mankind forwards.
> 
> Debate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As long as banksters fund both sides of a war it's no longer about competition but control.

http://www.quotessays.com/gallery/nathan-meyer-rothschild-2.jpg.html


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## john117

If you refer to Israelis sure, but I have known quite a few of them, scientists, engineers, managers, businessmen, and the like and they are very self deprecating about it all. (Memo to troops: stop using your cellphones to order pizzas - they're tracking them )

One of our supplier is in Haifa, a city that receives a lot of rocket fire from the "friendly" neighborhood hilltop rocket launcher squads. The guys from there are very nonchalant about it all, no testosterone chest thumbing speeches and the like, do what you need to nail the bad guys and get back.


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## bandit.45

tom67 said:


> As long as banksters fund both sides of a war it's no longer about competition but control.
> 
> Nathan Meyer Rothschild photo #2 - QuotesSays . COM


We learned that in the Spanish American War didn't we? A war started by the US on completely fabricated evidence. Just like a more recent war we illegally started.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

Caribbean Man said:


> Our brain rewards us for competing and winning , we feel good about ourselves and it becomes an integral part of who we are.
> 
> But competing isn't intrinsically bad.


Is it the brain or the ego? I agree though, generally we do feel good when we've achieved. 

My husband commented the other day about being the best you can be. We were talking about contractors we'd had in. His view is that it's one short life, so what's the point in doing it half-arsed. If you're going to do something, then do it to the best of your ability. 

There's a competitiveness in this way of thinking. Sometimes the comparisons of progress, the competitiveness, can simply be within yourself though. It doesn't always need to be about 'winning' over someone else.


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## heartsbeating

Anon Pink said:


> Lack of role models directly involved in the boys life.


My husband didn't have role models growing-up. I think positive role models combined with a bit of luck and smarts can certainly equate to good things! Being exposed to different environments and ways of doing things has certainly played a part in his own changes the last few years. 

He had a situation at work where he was basically thrown under the bus and he stood up for himself. I was surprised at how he handled it - the way he expressed very openly and made it very clear that it was unacceptable to him and why. I told him if it was me, I probably would have taken it on the chin (I'm working on that!) - and felt the way he'd handled it was great! 

He reflected on scenarios he was exposed to in another place he worked that was possibly too much the other way, almost too bold, and how he respected (and observed) the way one guy would assert himself to the boss. He'd call him out, be very open and such. Turns out this guy had sold his company and was sitting on a healthy profit from that and didn't need to work there. So basically he had leverage... he had nothing to lose. 

What if you could feel that type of leverage because you simply have self-respect and confidence? There's a balance to be had of course and hubs does need this job. But the point to all of this is, being exposed to a variety of people, and observing behavior, learning from it and then implementing what he feels is needed, has meant significant changes to the way he approaches many things in life. 

Including our marriage.


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## whitehawk

l reckon this whole things ridiculous .
Men AND women come here broken hearted and at the lowest point in their lives and it in shreds . They lay it all on the table and they've often tried their best and tried to do the right thing even if that's turned out ass about.

The question should be why are men "and" women , weenies in love?
But hey , that's a very simple answer ! Even presidents and princesses are fkd when it comes to love .


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## Caribbean Man

heartsbeating said:


> There's a competitiveness in this way of thinking. *Sometimes the comparisons of progress, the competitiveness, can simply be within yourself though. It doesn't always need to be about 'winning' over someone else.*


Yes.

That's exactly what I meant.

That way , "_ everyone's a winner_" because we all have our obstacles in our way that we need to overcome in order to feel a sense of personal growth and progress.


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## whitehawk

The other thing we gotta remember is that most of these people , me included , have picked up the pieces , the debts , the houses , the living without their kids , all the mess and [email protected] left behind , dealt with it all and rebuilt their lives . Nothin weenie about that believe me l've done it.


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## Deejo

I'm going to hazard that Bandit ' s initial reference had more to do with guys who come here, lay out just how bad things look and utterly broken the dynamic is with their spouse, contributors here who have already been through the meat grinder can see exactly what's going on, and suggest changes or action plans.

And rather than acknowledging, and acting; some guys keep hoping there is some magical alternative wherein the world changes around them, rather than changing how they interact with the world (wife, women, bosses, friends, family, etc.)

If a man is going to come here and wring his hands over circumstances we know all to well ... and instead of listening, reading and acting, just keeps posting more hand wringing, it becomes more challenging to support him. 

Which in sum = weenie

If you've done the work, and feel in command of where you are navigating your life ... even if it's over stormy waters and rocky shores, you aren't a weenie.

When cast into the river of life you can be a leaf, a rock or a fish ... you choose, but not a weenie.

Weenie is not an option.


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