# Coping with the hard stuff in life



## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Hello all,

I was in a debate with @Yosemite in another thread and ended the thread jack. Starting fresh, the debate was whether a person who suspects their spouse is having an affair and feels very sad about the whole idea of losing their spouse to divorce should go on antidepressant medication. 

Generally speaking, I think this is not advised. I feel this way because:


Currently 10% of the American population takes antidepressants; this number has quadrupled since the introduction of Prozac and other SSRIs back in the 90s. 
Many studies show that antidepressants do not work for mild to moderate depression, or that their effects could be due to placebo.
Antidepressants can cause serious side effects, including dementia, permanent facial tics, and increase the likelihood of suicide.
If a person has mild to moderate depression that is caused by a temporary event, taking medication may actually increase the likelihood of suicide.
Studies have shown that taking medication may not take away thoughts of suicide, but that psychotherapy can actually reduce thoughts of suicide even if the person remains depressed.


Regarding suicides, this article is quite informative: 

https://www.nap.edu/read/10398/chapter/2#2

"Resiliency and coping skills, on the other hand, can reduce the risk of suicide. Research suggests that coping skills can be taught."
"Depressive symptoms can be reduced by medicines without reduction in suicidality. And psychotherapy can reduce suicide without significant changes in affective symptoms."

Regarding overprescription today, here's an article that gives a clear picture of just how bad the problem is: 
Antidepressants Aren't Taken By The Depressed; Majority Of Users Have No Disorder

A new study published in The Journal of Clinical Psychiatry reports some 69 percent of people taking selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), the primary type of antidepressants, have *never *suffered from major depressive disorder (MDD). Perhaps worse, 38 percent have *never *in their lifetime met the criteria for MDD, obsessive compulsive disorder, panic disorder, social phobia, or generalized anxiety disorder, yet still take the pills that accompany them.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

People are not statistics, but individuals. Work with your professionals to determine what is best for you. 

Anti D has helped my wife. Immensely. 

I take Anti A. I am very educated and do all the right healthy stuff - eating right, exercise, IC, TAM, meditation. AND I have a professional background in pharmaceuticals so I clearly weigh the pros and cons for all meds we take. My doctor and I decided on the best course of treatment for me.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Begin again said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I was in a debate with @Yosemite in another thread and ended the thread jack. Starting fresh, the debate was whether a person who suspects their spouse is having an affair and feels very sad about the whole idea of losing their spouse to divorce should go on antidepressant medication.


Please don't quote me if you are going to incorrectly paraphrase me.

I NEVER stated that a spouse who feels sad about losing their spouse to divorce should go on antidepressants.

What I did say was that your advise, that people should NEVER use antidepressants or any other mental medications including the poor guy who was getting divorced and afraid he'd going to be so depressed he'd lose his ability to function at work- was reckless and irresponsible.

You continue to post about your own personal experiences and generalize them to the entire population, your general theme being "I didn't need them so neither do you and besides they have bad side effects and people should learn to cope without resorting to medications".

I maintain that psych medications designed to alter mood and personality have their place in some people, some or all of the time because everyone is different and not everyone handles stress well.

I fully acknowledge that many, if not most, if not all mood/personality altering medications have side effects, but that is no reason to dismiss their usefulness. Side effects can be mitigated by switching to a different medication or lowering dosages and even if the side effects are troublesome, they are often a better alternative than what the person may experience if they do not take those meds, and I again point out to the extremely high suicide rate especially among male divorcees.

I will state one more time that to the best of my knowledge @Begin again has no professional training nor a license in mental health and is way out of line to try to discourage strangers from taking medications that just might save their lives.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

ALL meds have side effect, including those that treat physical symptoms, not just mental symptoms. 

ALL FDA approved meds have demonstrated efficacy. Otherwise they would not have been approved. That does not mean all meds work for all people, but they work better than a placebo. 

SSRIs are widely used because they work. IMO they probably are prescribed for some people when they might not really need them, but for those that need them, the holistic natural approach is ineffective.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

I started a related thread, that discusses the legal implications of an untrained, unlicensed person giving medical advice to a person in emotional crisis. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physic...nsible-death-member-who-given-bad-advice.html


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Yosemite said:


> Please don't quote me if you are going to incorrectly paraphrase me.
> 
> I NEVER stated that a spouse who feels sad about losing their spouse to divorce should go on antidepressants.
> 
> ...


When the medical establishment is saying that too many people are taking antidepressants, then it's not my opinion I'm stating. Thanks very much.

You have also ignored all the information I provided FROM THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY (not my opinion) because it doesn't fit into your narrative.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Yosemite said:


> I started a related thread, that discusses the legal implications of an untrained, unlicensed person giving medical advice to a person in emotional crisis.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physic...nsible-death-member-who-given-bad-advice.html


LOL! Aren't you doing exactly that? Giving advice TO GO ON meds?


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Begin again said:


> When the medical establishment is saying that too many people are taking antidepressants, then it's not my opinion I'm stating. Thanks very much.
> 
> You have also ignored all the information I provided FROM THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY (not my opinion) because it doesn't fit into your narrative.


I addressed your statements about the medical community.

I don't dispute your statement that some doctors over prescribe anti depressants and don't spend enough time with their patients and that antidepressants are sometimes not the best course of treatment and they can cause significant, even severe side effects. What I do state is that those particular facts are _completely irrelevant_ to your arguments that antidepressants should not be used because people should "just learn to cope with stress like you did"


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Begin again said:


> LOL! Aren't you doing exactly that? Giving advice TO GO ON meds?


I'm not advising anyone to go on medications. I am suggesting that antidepressants can be a useful treatment option for some.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> ALL meds have side effect, including those that treat physical symptoms, not just mental symptoms.
> 
> ALL FDA approved meds have demonstrated efficacy. Otherwise they would not have been approved. That does not mean all meds work for all people, but they work better than a placebo.
> 
> SSRIs are widely used because they work. IMO they probably are prescribed for some people when they might not really need them, but for those that need them, the holistic natural approach is ineffective.


I'll simply point you to the following: Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Begin again said:


> I'll simply point you to the following: Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect


ALL medications can have a placebo effect, it's known, it's measurable, and it's accepted in the scientific and medical community.

The placebo effect, in regard to the point you are unsuccesfully trying to drive home, has nothing whatsoever to do with the usefullness and effectiveness of medications, including but not limited to those designed to alter mood and personality.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

Yosemite said:


> I addressed your statements about the medical community.
> 
> I don't dispute your statement that some doctors over prescribe anti depressants and don't spend enough time with their patients and that antidepressants are sometimes not the best course of treatment and they can cause significant, even severe side effects. What I do state is that those particular facts are _completely irrelevant_ to your arguments that antidepressants should not be used because people should "just learn to cope with stress like you did"


There is a difference between stress in life and major depression. To respond to this, I'll give you a quote from a Harvard researcher:

My colleagues and I have conducted a meta-analysis of various treatments for depression, including antidepressants, psychotherapy, the combination of psychotherapy and antidepressants, and “alternative” treatments, which included acupuncture and physical exercise (Khan, Faucett, Lichtenberg, Kirsch, & Brown, 2012). We found no significant differences between these treatments or within different types of psychotherapy. *When different treatments are equally effective, choice should be based on risk and harm, and of all of these treatments, antidepressant drugs are the riskiest and most harmful. If they are to be used at all, it should be as a last resort, when depression is extremely severe and all other treatment alternatives have been tried and failed.*

Note the last sentence. That's what I'm saying, too.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Begin again said:


> If they are to be used at all, it should be as a last resort, when depression is extremely severe and all other treatment alternatives have been tried and failed.[/B]
> 
> Note the last sentence. That's what I'm saying, too.


Great! Because it's not what you said before, which is that you unequivocally disregard the usefulness of antidepressants and state that they should NEVER be used by anyone.



Begin again said:


> We must learn to cope with normal (and yes hard, but still common) life events without meds.





Begin again said:


> And as for meds, skip them and find your inner strength.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Begin again said:


> There is a difference between stress in life and major depression. To respond to this, I'll give you a quote from a Harvard researcher:
> 
> My colleagues and I have conducted a meta-analysis of various treatments for depression, including antidepressants, psychotherapy, the combination of psychotherapy and antidepressants, and “alternative” treatments, which included acupuncture and physical exercise (Khan, Faucett, Lichtenberg, Kirsch, & Brown, 2012). We found no significant differences between these treatments or within different types of psychotherapy. *When different treatments are equally effective, choice should be based on risk and harm, and of all of these treatments, antidepressant drugs are the riskiest and most harmful. If they are to be used at all, it should be as a last resort, when depression is extremely severe and all other treatment alternatives have been tried and failed.*
> 
> Note the last sentence. That's what I'm saying, too.


Wow. The bolded is powerful.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Begin again said:


> I'll simply point you to the following: Antidepressants and the Placebo Effect




Yes, I am familiar with the NIH. I have worked with some of their scientists. 

This is one study amongst many many funded by NIH. 

My wife takes more than a dozen pills daily all fully vetted and dispersed by me. She does not know or remember which anti D she takes, how many, or what dosage. Yet they work for us. 

I asked recently my doc for a specific anti D for me. I explained my condition and wants. He did not think it would work for me. He explained why. He was ok though with letting me try it. Within 2 weeks i experienced some of the KNOWN side effects, even though W takes this without side effects. I discontinued and I went back on something else. 

As i said, work with your professionals to manage your health. If the FDA did not believe they worked they would be pulled from the market. 

They are very very stringent.


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## Yosemite (Aug 23, 2016)

Since we're posting anecdotal stories based on our own personal experiences, I'll add my own.

I have experienced moderate to severe depression exactly 4x in my life and have been on different anti depressants each of those 4 times for periods of 3 months up to 1 year. Not on any medications at this time, thanks to the benefits provided by those medications I was able to work through those depressive episodes and continue to work on resolving my issues and building my "inner strength" as @Begin again so aptly puts it.

The first time was when I had a sudden unexpected natural disaster in my life. I was experiencing terrible anxiety, panic attacks and depression and could barely function at work. A psychiatrist of questionable competency prescribed me Paxil, and I saw him 4 weeks in a row, each time he spent about 10 minutes with me, asked me how I was doing, and continued to up the dosage until I was a walking zombie. I went cold turkey a month or two later and recovered from my depression without further assistance from medications. 

During my failing marriage, my subsequent divorce, and rebuilding my life afterwards resulted in 3 more depressive episodes, for which I was treated at various times with Wellbutrin, zoloft, effexor, and cymbalta.

All of those medications except cymbalta caused unwanted side effects but did pull me out of the depression and made my anxiety manageable. I experienced no side effects from cymbalta and found it extremely effective in lowering- even eliminating my anxiety and depression.

If I hadn't used those medications, I probably would have made it through, but who knows? I had been experiencing suicidal thoughts and my ability to function at work was seriously impaired by my mood. 

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Please, do not discount the use of anti depressants, anti anxiety, and mood stablizing medications if you're having trouble coping. The "building of innner strength" and working on the issues that got you there in the first place can be dealt with over time with a competant therapist - but that's the key word- "time". It takes a while, and many people don't have the luxury to sit back and wait for therapy to start working.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Begin again said:


> There is a difference between stress in life and major depression. To respond to this, I'll give you a quote from a Harvard researcher:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are stating the obvious. When two options are equally effective, select the least harmful. Not rocket science. 

Your argument is ineffective because you are cherry picking articles and researchers that match your opinion. 

I can provide you with equal clinical data from Harvard, Mayo Clinic, and Cleveland Clinic that shows their effectiveness. 

Basing your health care on what you read on the internet is very dangerous.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Begin again said:


> There is a difference between stress in life and major depression.
> 
> too.



Only a trained professional can diagnosis the difference. What might be minor stress to you is major to someone else.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Begin again said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I was in a debate with @Yosemite in another thread and ended the thread jack. Starting fresh, the debate was whether a person who suspects their spouse is having an affair and feels very sad about the whole idea of losing their spouse to divorce should go on antidepressant medication.
> 
> .......................


it is not up to us randoms to debate what anyone going through what is one of lifes most difficult crises should do to get through it. That discussion is for them and their health professionals.

FWIW I have never suffered with depression or taken any Anti D's but yeah divorce is excruciatingly hard to get through so I self medicated with alcohol. Maybe some short term meds would have been less harmful????


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Yes, I am familiar with the NIH. I have worked with some of their scientists.
> 
> This is one study amongst many many funded by NIH.
> 
> ...


The FDA is in the pockets of big Pharm.

That is why they refuse to tell people about the enormous risks of statins (for one example). Did you know that mortality rates are not affected in the least by statins? Yes, there are fewer deaths by heart attack, but there are more deaths from all other causes, including heart failure, which is a known effect of statins. But they are extremely profitable to the big pharmaceutical companies.

FDA approval or disapproval has roughly the same impact on my opinion of a drug as does the astrological sign of the company that invented the drug. Maybe less.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

tech-novelist said:


> The FDA is in the pockets of big Pharm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I believe the statins contributed to my wife's liver failure.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

tech-novelist said:


> The FDA is in the pockets of big Pharm.
> 
> That is why they refuse to tell people about the enormous risks of statins (for one example). Did you know that mortality rates are not affected in the least by statins? Yes, there are fewer deaths by heart attack, but there are more deaths from all other causes, including heart failure, which is a known effect of statins. But they are extremely profitable to the big pharmaceutical companies.
> 
> FDA approval or disapproval has roughly the same impact on my opinion of a drug as does the astrological sign of the company that invented the drug. Maybe less.


I've bought a # of books on these dang statins.. some speak GOOD...best meds on the market.. some say they should put it on our drinking water.. others call it poison... 

All we know is... when my husband took them, he felt like a truck ran him over .. we resolved.. "Screw it!"... we're going to live and feel good while we have breath... and take our chances.. when I read they sucked his Testosterone levels.. I thought.. "OMG... we can't have that [email protected]#".. that's when I was on a sex high.. then he'd have to take another med to counteract that !! .. I had my head spinning in a number of directions the more I read.. thinking this could cause him to get diabetes too.. 

On the Anti-depressants.. many times watching TV at night, these commercials show up...they rapidly read through the side effects.. when you hear suicide being a side effect of an anti-depressant... it's like "huh - what ?"....there it is .... in black & white.. 

I've had a couple friends who benefited , one going through a divorce, another ready to leave her husband over sex.. both times being put on something helped them get through it.. they'd both say it was a life saver to them... for the 2nd.. a marriage saver.. 

I am sure they are over prescribed though... I can see both sides... it's purely an individual thing, a case by case basis.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> I believe the statins contributed to my wife's liver failure.


Probably. I do know that there is no way in the world I would ever take them, knowing what I do from having done my due diligence on them. They should be banned, period.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

All I can share is my own life experiences. I don't have any answers but the questions do haunt me....

My H has been on antidepressants twice in his life (once many years ago to help quit smoking. Yes! SSRIs). 

The HUGE problem is they made him feel so much better!! Things didn't bother him that much anymore. Stress & dissalusionment at work wasn't a problem anymore. He no longer worried about his Mums terminal illness, didn't care! He no longer worried about me or his family. He didn't care that he was starting an affair. Then he didn't care that his character completely changed & he became abusive. 

12 years later he tried them again. They take about 6 weeks to reach full effects. It took him 6 weeks to restart his affair with the same mistress & start treating me like s**t!! I will never know the role that the antidepressants played in wrecking my life.

My brother was put on antidepressants when he was experiencing his wife's adultery. He committed suicide. I don't know if anything would of been different if he hadn't taken the meds. He was experiencing the most awful things. He couldn't find anger, just self-loathing & agony. If he'd been angry would he of lived???

All I can say is be REALLY careful when you or a loved one takes these meds. Keep an eye on eachother & logic check behavior & thoughts.


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