# Men paying on dates or women shoud also take the turn?



## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I came across these posts on IG (attached below) from an influencer who teaches about men and women in high society. She answered to some of the questions from her followers, regarding who should pay on dates.


Do you agree with her? if yes, to what extent?? If no, why?
What about your personal experiences?


******
Personally, I agree with her to the extent that it's a pleasure to have the man pay on dates, especially during the first phases of dating. _Most _times, I'd prefer the man to offer to pay. I see it as a sign of _chivalry_, which is a trait that I highly appreciate and turns me on.
Sure, I also offer to pay from time to time. I don't like the idea of being passive and always waiting for him to pay, but I have to admit, I expect the man to pay (most times - but not always).

This influencer is of the idea that the man must pay 100% of the time, all the time ..always , for everything - and I absolutely *do not* agree with this.

Also, have a look at the comment on gender-equality that men&women are not equal by nature therefore splitting the bill doesn't make sense. Although, IMO, this is more related to _equal *rights*_ rather than_ equal genders_ but that's another topic.

In marriage though, things might be a bit different because the couple uses the joint account so it might not matter who pays what and when.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

If you're multidating him or in any way not seeing an LTR with this guy, then yes, I think a woman should share dating expenses. But also, I think a woman needs to be realistic. If the guy doesn't make a lot of money or has a fair few demands on his paycheck, then some adjustments need to be made.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@lovelygirl I agree with most of what both you and the Insta influencer say. As a woman, all the things I have to do to be attractive and feminine for a date costs $$$. Women's clothing costs more, our toiletries cost more, our haircuts cost more, we have to buy makeup and get leg waxes and manicures and pedicures... all of these things cost us in both money and time. Men claim they don't care about this stuff, but in my experience, men gravitate towards women who are made-up and manicured, and ignore women who aren't. Not only that but the time spent getting ready for the date for a woman is significant, whereas most men put on a new shirt and call it good. All of this extra money and time women have to put in for a date when we still don't have equal pay.

If I have had to go through all that time and effort to go put on a date, so that I look good for a man, if he wants to see me again, he damn well better pay for dinner. It's called chivalry. If a man doesn't value me and my time enough to pay for dinner, then he is not the man for me. If he insists that we split the check, then he won't be getting a second date with me. A man paying the check is an investment in me and our potential relationship, because the man who is chivalrous with me and who treats me well... that man will be treated like a king. You treat the right woman like a queen, and she will treat you like a king.

HOWEVER... if I've already decided that I don't want to see him again, I will insist on splitting the check. I'm not going to take advantage of a man whom I have no intention of seeing again.

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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Is it OK for the woman to offer the man a coupon if she has one?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

When I was dating, I never once had a man ask to do this. 

Even when I asked in advance (for clarity, so I could relax), I was consistently told they wanted to pay.

I think you're definitely right about women who dress up, verse those who don't. Being a blue jeans/t-shirt kind of person, I didn't. 😬



FeministInPink said:


> @lovelygirlIf he insists that we split the check, then he won't be getting a second date with me.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> If the guy doesn't make a lot of money or has a fair few demands on his paycheck, then some adjustments need to be made.


Just like the influencer said, if the guy doesn't make a lot of money, then he can take her to places he affords so that he can pay the full bill.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

The way I look on it is this. If I was having dinner or drinks with a woman and she insisted on paying for herself then I wouldn’t consider it a date, just two people having a meal/drink together. 
On my very first date I was bringing a girl to the movies. My Dad asked me had I enough money to pay for both of us and I said I had. He told me to always pay on dates because girls have to buy stuff that boy’s don’t. That was good advice then and it still is.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't pay for anything early on. This is how you weed out the men who aren't that into you.

And to @FeministInPink's point, getting dolled up costs money.

Now once he's shown that he's interested enough to make a lot of effort, including paying for dates, I don't mind things becoming more even.

My guy paid for everything early on. That told me he was very interested, and now we split things more evenly.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> The way I look on it is this. If I was having dinner or drinks with a woman and she insisted on paying for herself then I wouldn’t consider it a date, just two people having a meal/drink together.
> On my very first date I was bringing a girl to the movies. My Dad asked me had I enough money to pay for both of us and I said I had. He told me to always pay on dates because girls have to buy stuff that boy’s don’t. That was good advice then and it still is.


I like your dad, he sounds like a good guy!

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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't pay for anything early on. This is how you weed out the men who aren't that into you.
> 
> And to @FeministInPink's point, getting dolled up costs money.
> 
> ...


One of the things I'll do to make things more even later is that I do a lot of cooking. Instead of getting carryout for a night in, I'll buy food and cook at his place. And I'll do other little things like that, or I might surprise him with tickets to an event I know he would enjoy. I still expect him to pay when we go out, but as a relationship progresses, I think you spend more time staying in and doing everyday things than going out on dates.

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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Just like the influencer said, if the guy doesn't make a lot of money, then he can take her to places he affords so that he can pay the full bill.


Yes... I don't need a date to be at a fancy restaurant. But he needs to take the initiative and plan SOMETHING. Even a picnic in a park and feeding the ducks or something... super inexpensive date, but a lot of fun and shows initiative and him taking responsibility for the date.

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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

If it’s a first date and he invited me then he would pay. If I invited him then I would pay. Subsequent dates (or long-term dating) — depends but should be equal. But the guy paying all the time for everything? Absolutely not for me. This is not the same world as it was when I was growing up when a guy would have been totally shocked if I offered to pay or split. For the decades I was married, the money came from a joint account so it didn’t matter which of us paid. If I were to remarry (never) there would be separate accounts with a joint account used for paying bills, etc. and I would expect that we would take turns for dates — depending. But I expect things to be equal. I do spend a ridiculous deal of money to look the way I do, and always have, but that’s my choice and I don’t balance that against anything else.


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## Mrs433 (Nov 6, 2018)

This is a new world we live, in many aspects! For one I think it depends how you meet this guy? If it was like friends hooking you up, I would think the man should pay and maybe the female offer to leave the tip??? 
If you are meeting this guy as a stranger from an online dating site, since you really don't know who this guy really is, I WOULD WANT TO PAY FOR WHAT I ORDERED! Only because I wouldn't want this guy to expect anything at the end of the date in return. 
I'm not saying all men are like this, you just don't know if this one is! Especially if you do not see a 2nd date together in the future. Pay for your own dinner and cut your lost. 
It's too bad things like dating are not like they were before all of this technology. I never had to use dating sites, I hope I never have to! I been married 30 years, been with my husband since I was18 years old. I'm not against people finding online dates. 
Actually my daughter at the age of 17, started talking to this guy who was in the military. He was stationed in Korea at the time. They meet playing online either through xbox or playstation. When he finished his tou, he flew straight to California 3 days prior to her 18th birthday and proposed to her!
I had no clue of any of this! She keep it all a secret and she knew he bought her a ring and they were planning on getting married. She ended up getting married 5 days after she turned 18. Then 2 days later she moved to the East coast where he was stationed. 
Luckily it worked out! They have been married 10 years now. Tell me that is not the most terrifying thing as a parent. 
We all know that people can pretend online who they are and the only thing that gave me some comfort knowing the military had a background check in this guy. 
So I would rather pay for myself on 1st date, see where it goes! After the 1st date, if there happens to be a 2nd or 3rd date then yes the guy should step up and start paying for the dates.

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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

The new woman I have been seeing is a potential LTR. We have been on several dates, but some have just been meeting at the beach where I bring alcohol and she brings some food, so we both contribute. We’ve gone out to eat twice, I paid once and she paid once. We are both independent people, and our dating ‘costs’ have reflected that. I would be turned off if I have to solely foot the bill.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

FeministInPink said:


> One of the things I'll do to make things more even later is that I do a lot of cooking. Instead of getting carryout for a night in, I'll buy food and cook at his place. And I'll do other little things like that, or I might surprise him with tickets to an event I know he would enjoy. I still expect him to pay when we go out, but as a relationship progresses, I think you spend more time staying in and doing everyday things than going out on dates.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


I cook a lot too and he doesn't cook at all, and he has special dietary needs that I accommodate, so I think that's worth a lot!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> One of the things I'll do to make things more even later is that I do a lot of cooking. Instead of getting carryout for a night in, I'll buy food and cook at his place. And I'll do other little things like that, or I might surprise him with tickets to an event I know he would enjoy. I still expect him to pay when we go out, but as a relationship progresses, I think you spend more time staying in and doing everyday things than going out on dates.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


^ This.

Unless there is a huge income discrepancy, the expenses even out over time. I know I have invited dates over to my house where the food I served was more expensive than anything I had gotten at a restaurant.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> My Dad asked me had I enough money to pay for both of us and I said I had. He told me to always pay on dates because girls have to buy stuff that boy’s don’t. That was good advice then and it still is.


Such a decent advice! 👏👏👏

Family plays a big role in raising boys(future men) in terms of how they should treat their womam. That type of advice is one of them.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I was brought up with a very traditional dad who like @Andy1001 's dad, taught us that the guy always pays.

I know things are different now and I try to go with the flow BUT, splitting the bill has only happened to me on one date and it was such a turnoff. I have a type and like it or not, I cannot let it go.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> BUT, splitting the bill has only happened to me on one date and it was such a turnoff.


Did it give you a negative opinion of her?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> Did it give you a negative opinion of her?


Was that a typo? I'm a hetero woman who only dates men.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Lila said:


> Was that a typo? I'm a hetero woman who only dates men.


Sorry. I glanced at your icon.

But hopefully, some of the guys can answer that.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Lila said:


> BUT, splitting the bill has only happened to me on one date and it was such a turnoff. I have a type and like or not, I cannot let it go.


Exactly!!! Such a turn off when the guy wants to split. It makes me throw up.

I remember the last guy I dated wanted us to split the bill and in one of our early-on dinners I said "_Listen, I don't like the idea of splitting. It makes me feel like I'm your buddy, not your potential woman. If you wanna split, I'd rather pay the full bill for both of us_." 
I grabbed the bill and took out my wallet. He sort of felt hurt in his subconcious and replied "_no no I'll pay_". 
Then I said "_Back off! Too late now. You should've insisted in the beginning". _
And I purposely paid it all to show him you either have balls or you don't! 
Turned out he didn't and he felt like total sh*t.!!! 
Ha!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

When I was dating I almost always paid for meals etc but sometimes my date would try and pay so I would tell them to leave the tip if they wanted to. 
I could tell a lot about someone just by observing how much they left when there was no set amount owed. If a date left five bucks tip on a hundred and twenty dollar meal then that told me a lot about her.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I eat out alone a lot when I'm traveling. I'm an excellent tipper. 😌



Andy1001 said:


> When I was dating I almost always paid for meals etc but sometimes my date would try and pay so I would tell them to leave the tip if they wanted to.
> I could tell a lot about someone just by observing how much they left when there was no set amount owed. If a date left five bucks tip on a hundred and twenty dollar meal then that told me a lot about her.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> Women's clothing costs more, our toiletries cost more, our haircuts cost more, we have to buy makeup and get leg waxes and manicures and pedicures... all of these things cost us in both money and time





FeministInPink said:


> to go put on a date, so that I look good for a man, if he wants to see me again, he damn well better pay for dinner. It's called chivalry. If a man doesn't value me and my time enough to pay for dinner, then he is not the man for me. If he insists that we split the check, then he won't be getting a second date with me.


True!!! And totally agreed.

But, the problem with most men nowadays is that they bring up the justification of gender equality and they expect women to pay while taking turns. This also is stressful.

I remember....again...with the guy I mentioned above...another episode was when we would take turns in paying. 
Dinner today him, dinner tomorrow me. 
God!! So stressful and I'd feel guilty if I let him pay twice in a row. Not that he would say anything.... but when I realized that he has this "modern" the mentality about paying , then it was sort of an unspoken rule that we would take turns in paying.

🙄🙄


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

M


Andy1001 said:


> I could tell a lot about someone just by observing how much they left when there was no set amount owed. If a date left five bucks tip on a hundred and twenty dollar meal then that told me a lot about her.


Btw, what would be "the rule" (or your expectation) of tipping in such case?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Another one of my dads quotes. 
“Two things a girl doesn’t touch on a date, the door or her pocketbook”.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

lovelygirl said:


> M
> 
> Btw, what would be "the rule" (or your expectation) of tipping in such case?


Minimum twenty percent.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

In the unlikely event that I ever date again, the first date would be cheap, ie. coffee or a walk somewhere nice. There’d be none of this unnecessary dance around who pays what. Depending on the outcome of date number one, the “pay” schedule would naturally flow.

The term “influencer” should be stricken from modern parlance. Reading those attachments made me hate her, lol, I guess she successfully influenced me.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Mrs433 said:


> I would think the man should pay and maybe the female offer to leave the tip???


I don't understand the idea between splitting the tip and the bill. 

Over here in Albania, the one who offers to pay also includes the tip. Maybe because here, the tip is not that big. For example, for a $25 meal, you leave a $2-3 tip.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> Another one of my dads quotes.
> “Two things a girl doesn’t touch on a date, the door or her pocketbook”.


Can I date your dad? Or is he taken by your mother?

I expect *exactly* the same.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I've only ever really dated Mrs. C in the traditional sense and I cover it. She still doesn't touch a door or have to think about anything in her purse besides lady stuff.

Before I met her, there were a lot of women that paid for things without even letting me in on the decision.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> there were a lot of women that paid for things without even letting me in on the decision.


What did you really think about those women paying at the time of speaking? 
Was it attractive to you? Or was it a bit "too masculine" of them?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Mrs433 said:


> So I would rather pay for myself on 1st date, see where it goes! After the 1st date, if there happens to be a 2nd or 3rd date then yes the guy should step up and start paying for the


I understand your idea...but if you pay for your own order on the first date, you risk misleading him into thinking that you're the "split-the-bill" type of girl...or that this is how the rest will follow.

First few dates (especially the very first one) is about testing waters and setting standarts. If you pay for your own, you set the expectation .... that you will always "touch" your wallet in a way or another. You send the wrong message if you prefer the man to pay.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

When I was online dating I always paid my own way and I made that clear from the start. I was seriously looking to meet someone and wasn’t in it for free dinners and drinks and I made that clear as well. A lot of men didn’t like it but would agree to my terms. Almost all of them still tried to pay when my bill would come. I also did this so that if I didn’t want to see the man again he wouldn’t feel that he’d been used which happens so often with online dating.

My current BF completely disagreed with me on this when we first met but luckily it wasn’t an issue because our first date happened right when lock down began and everything was closed lol! We spent our first date walking the aisles of a grocery store, there was nowhere else to meet! We sat for over an hour in the lawn and garden department lol!

As of right now, three months later, we split everything. I’m not comfortable with him paying for everything all the time. I can’t relate to the thinking that says a man should. It just doesn’t feel good to me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lovelygirl said:


> What did you really think about those women paying at the time of speaking?
> Was it attractive to you? Or was it a bit "too masculine" of them?


LoL! It never occurred to me that they were behaving in a masculine manner. They wanted to have fun with me and sometimes I got to contribute financially but they didn't care.

I had a wild life that was a little different from the norm I think.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I've kind of never cared one way or the other...I've never had TONS of money, so if a guy wanted to do something really fancy or expensive, and wanted me to join him, he'd have to pay...but I'm just as happy hiking around the state park and eating at a fast-food place as I am on an expensive trip and at a fancy restaurant. 

The key would be, do I LIKE him...? If I DO, then I'd just enjoy being with him, no matter what we do, and I'd be happy to pay for HIM or split the bill if that's how things needed to go for us to get together!

I like when the guy WANTS to pay...because I think that's sweet and generous, and it makes me feel special...but whether he does or not has never mattered to me.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Another one of my dads quotes.
> “Two things a girl doesn’t touch on a date, the door or her pocketbook”.


I work with man who I consider a great friend and mentor. He tells me this all of the time.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Old fashioned girl here.

On our first date, my now husband asked me to split the bill! I was so deflated - we'd had such a wonderful time, and I thought "I like this guy, this could go somewhere". The bill came out, and I didn't make any moves to pay it, and he said "If you pay X amount that'd be great", so of course I did. Then I said I had to go - it was bin night 🤣 When I got home I had an email from him about what a wonderful evening it had been, and that he would like to see me again. I replied that I had too, but I was taken aback being asked to split the bill, that it felt like I was out with a friend and not on a date, and that I hadn't felt special at all. I said I thought we had different ideas about dating and that I didn't think we'd work. He apologised and asked for a chance to redeem himself lol, and the rest is history 

He courted me, and oh how I loved it! I lapped it right up. I would return the favour in other ways though like buying food and bringing it to his place and cooking for him, he loved that!! Another time I was down to my last $5 before payday, and I saw this beautiful red rose, so I bought it for him. His reaction was adorable!! "Oh wow! No one's ever given me flowers before!" so sweet.

I'm in the camp that it's chivalrous and romantic for the man to pay. It doesn't need to be a fancy, expensive restaurant either.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> True!!! And totally agreed.
> 
> But, the problem with most men nowadays is that they bring up the justification of gender equality and they expect women to pay while taking turns. This also is stressful.
> 
> ...


Then I tell them exactly what I wrote in my post about all the extra expenses women have in order to date and be attractive, and how much extra time I have to put in. And whether or not he values me and my company. And everything else that I said here.

If he still insists on splitting the bill, I'll pay my share. And then never see him again, and good riddance.

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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I've only ever really dated Mrs. C in the traditional sense and I cover it. She still doesn't touch a door or have to think about anything in her purse besides lady stuff.
> 
> Before I met her, there were a lot of women that paid for things without even letting me in on the decision.


My last boyfriend, who I was with for 2.5 yrs, always insisted on paying. Aside from the points I've already made, he always said that he didn't want any woman he was on a date with to be worried about her budget or how much things cost, because that takes away from her enjoying herself and being relaxed. So he said he establishes up front that he is paying so she can just enjoy the date and not worry.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Not said:


> I also did this so that if I didn’t want to see the man again he wouldn’t feel that he’d been used which happens so often with online dating.


it' a mentality thing. Whether you meet that guy online or offline, it's still a date and if he's dating exclusively then he has no reason to feel he's been used. 

IMO, those who feel used are the ones that multi-date or _fast-date _and are not much into the girl(s) they are dating.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> he always said that he didn't want any woman he was on a date with to be worried about her budget or how much things cost, because that takes away from her enjoying herself and being relaxed


Yep! True.

But we have to admit, the financial state of the guy also impacts the dates. I guess this ex of yours must've been financially stable to have said this, right?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

frusdil said:


> Then I said I had to go - it was bin night 🤣


Sorry for the threadjack but I gotta ask--what's a bin night? Is that trash day?


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I hope any potential date of mine doesn't spend as much time and money getting dolled up as has been mentioned in this thread. In the past my reaction to someone who has put in a lot of effort wasn't "she looks nice" but "that's a lot of makeup". Unless they are gaudy, I'm not going to notice fingernails, shoes, or jewelry.

I'll probably pay since I've been paying for everything since I started dating. Paying when it was a bad experience wouldn't feel very good though. On the other hand if she was casually or explicitly insulting, paying would be a (very) subtle way of reclaiming worth.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> I hope any potential date of mine doesn't spend as much time and money getting dolled up as has been mentioned in this thread. In the past my reaction to someone who has put in a lot of effort wasn't "she looks nice" but "that's a lot of makeup". Unless they are gaudy, I'm not going to notice fingernails, shoes, or jewelry.
> 
> I'll probably pay since I've been paying for everything since I started dating. Paying when it was a bad experience wouldn't feel very good though. On the other hand if she was casually or explicitly insulting, paying would be a (very) subtle way of reclaiming worth.


Yeah that went through my mind. I've never had a manicure or pedicure, the last time I painted my nails was high school, I don't color my hair, I haven't had a haircut going on 5 months (I'm growing it out long, I guess), and I shave not wax. Minimal makeup. I am pretty and feminine, though.

Does this mean I don't deserve to have a man pay for a date because I'm not spending a lot of $$ on my nails, hair, and makeup???


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Hiner112 said:


> In the past my reaction to someone who has put in a lot of effort wasn't "she looks nice" but "that's a lot of makeup".


Putting a "lot" of effort doesn't necessarily mean a lot of make up. Effort can be in many ways...choosing the right outfit or looking as naturally good as possible.



Hiner112 said:


> On the other hand* if she was casually or explicitly insulting*, paying would be a (very) subtle way of reclaiming worth.


what do you mean with the bolded part?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Were any of you ladies affected by Women's Lib, especially in the 80s? ie You should pay for yourself and you can approach the guy first ......or else you're just gameplaying.

Even when I was between marriages, a couple of women chastised me for letting my date pay for me.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

I just don’t like feeling obligated. 


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I just don’t like *feeling obligated.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That would apply to both sexes. I think there's something inherently wrong with the modern world of ''dating''. What the solution is....that's a topic for another thread, lol.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> You should pay for yourself and you can approach the guy first ......or else you're just gameplaying.


I was born in '87 so no, I was not affected by that but to this day I call this crap.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Hiner112 said:


> I hope any potential date of mine doesn't spend as much time and money getting dolled up as has been mentioned in this thread. In the past my reaction to someone who has put in a lot of effort wasn't "she looks nice" but "that's a lot of makeup". Unless they are gaudy, I'm not going to notice fingernails, shoes, or jewelry.
> 
> I'll probably pay since I've been paying for everything since I started dating. Paying when it was a bad experience wouldn't feel very good though. On the other hand if she was casually or explicitly insulting, paying would be a (very) subtle way of reclaiming worth.


Honestly, what I'm talking about really isn't excessive. I know women who put in a LOT more than what I'm talking about. Men really have no idea how much time and effort goes into looking "naturally beautiful."

And also, part of what I'm talking about is the "pink tax." The women's version of most health care/beauty items items--think razors, deodorant, body wash--tend to be, on average, 13% more expensive than those made for men. When you consider ALL consumer products, the overall cost of goods for women is 7% higher.









The Pink Tax: What's the Cost of Being a Female Consumer In 2022?


Do women pay more for the same product a man buys? Learn what the pink tax is, if you're paying it, and how to avoid it right now.




www.listenmoneymatters.com





Society expects women to look a certain way. Women who wear makeup are viewed as more professional and more competent, and get promoted quicker and more often. A woman with hairy pits and legs isn't going to taken seriously, but men are allowed (sometimes encouraged) to grow out their facial hair.

As much as you say that you don't need a woman to look gaudily made-up, most men would take issue if a woman didn't at least meet the minimum of societal standards.

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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

lovelygirl said:


> What do you mean with the bolded part?


Mobile quote lost my part which talked about explicit or implied insults.

Old example:

Date _sees a local news report on the district wrestling tournament on the TV at the restaurant_: Wrestling is stupid. It's just sweaty gay guys rolling around with each other.

Me: The wrestling team was the only thing that I cared about during Middle or High school.

More recent (a few months before the ex told me she was leaving):

Me _stutter a bit talking about work or the kids_

STBXW: Why can't you have a conversation like a normal person?


edit:

I doubt this is common in a dating context but as I've taken my girls to their events I've been present for lots of discussions about how useless fathers and men in general are between the mothers waiting on the kids to finish up. I'm probably not going to want to hang out with someone that feels that way but on a date it would be more subtle than her saying "men are stupid and immature".


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Yeah that went through my mind. I've never had a manicure or pedicure, the last time I painted my nails was high school, I don't color my hair, I haven't had a haircut going on 5 months (I'm growing it out long, I guess), and I shave not wax. Minimal makeup. I am pretty and feminine, though.
> 
> Does this mean I don't deserve to have a man pay for a date because I'm not spending a lot of $$ on my nails, hair, and makeup???


THIS. You do deserve it! You deserve to be treated well.

The financial/time difference in prepping for a dateband looking good is only one argument... it's not the whole/only argument. 

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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

lovelygirl said:


> it' a mentality thing. Whether you meet that guy online or offline, it's still a date and if he's dating exclusively then he has no reason to feel he's been used.
> 
> IMO, those who feel used are the ones that multi-date or _fast-date _and are not much into the girl(s) they are dating.


I guess I don’t consider meeting someone for the first time an actual date because I technically don’t know the guy yet. So I pay my own way. Now if I like him and it’s mutual and he asks me out for a second time I’ll let him pay but with the caveat that I’m not comfortable with him paying all the time if things go further.

The serial dating goes both ways and men complain about this a lot. I can’t tell you how many times I received messages from men stating how refreshing it was to see a woman’s profile that states she’s not in it for free meals and dinks. There are women who will have dates planned out for 4 or 5 nights a week with 4 or 5 different men with no intention of ever seeing these guys again.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Re: the putting a lot of time and expense into preparing for a date. I’m like Livvie in that way, I just don’t do that. If I don’t do it for myself as a regular habit no guy is getting that special treatment, especially if I barely know him. Plus I would like to see that the guy is attracted to me in my natural state lol! When I wake up in the morning I look the same as I do during the day except for bed head which can get pretty ugly lol! 

When I’ve spent enough time with someone to know I want things to progress then I’ll get dolled up and he’ll know it’s for him only, adds spice and feels special.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> Society expects women to look a certain way. Women who wear makeup are viewed as more professional and more competent, and get promoted quicker and more often. A woman with hairy pits and legs isn't going to taken seriously, but men are allowed (sometimes encouraged) to grow out their facial hair.
> 
> As much as you say that you don't need a woman to look gaudily made-up, most men would take issue if a woman didn't at least meet the minimum of societal standards.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


I NEVER wear make up...of course, if I were going somewhere fancy, I would, but it would be limited to mascara and blush, maybe a little eye liner/shadow. Also, I'm only 5ft tall, so shaving my legs doesn't take very long...Lol!!!
I buy most of my clothes at second-hand stores, and I have very few shoes to choose from, because I mostly love to be barefoot!!

I only want to look like ME...if a guy wants a more "decorated" woman, he needs to walk right past me and find her, with NO hard feelings on my part. I'll never make a man like that happy...I wouldn't even try...and it's good to find that out right away!!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Were any of you ladies affected by Women's Lib, especially in the 80s? ie You should pay for yourself and you can approach the guy first ......or else you're just gameplaying.
> 
> Even when I was between marriages, a couple of women chastised me for letting my date pay for me.


I was born in 1979, so I grew up with the idea that it was fine for a woman to ask the guy out. So, when I went to college, I embraced this idea. And what I learned is this: guys, when asked out on a date, pretty much never say "no." Even if they're not really into a woman, they will still say yes, because it might get them laid.

The result was, I went on a lot of dates. With a lot of hot guys. And had as much sex as I wanted. But... these guys weren't really into me, and the dalliances only lasted a short time. 

However, the guys who asked me out, who had to do a little chasing, they had more skin in the game.

Now that I am older and wiser, I'm ok with letting a guy know I'm interested but I'm not going to do the asking. I want him to have skin in the game, and if he's not willing to go to the effort of asking me out, he's certainly not worth my time. Also, a guy who expects the woman to carry the emotional load like that at the very beginning is going to be like that the entire relationship, and he's certainly not going to pick up the check or open doors for me.

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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Not said:


> Re: the putting a lot of time and expense into preparing for a date. I’m like Livvie in that way, I just don’t do that. If I don’t do it for myself as a regular habit no guy is getting that special treatment, especially if I barely know him. Plus I would like to see that the guy is attracted to me in my natural state lol! When I wake up in the morning I look the same as I do during the day except for bed head which can get pretty ugly lol!
> 
> When I’ve spent enough time with someone to know I want things to progress then I’ll get dolled up and he’ll know it’s for him only, adds spice and feels special.


I’ll say it again...you’re my sister from another mister 


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Interesting conversation. I will be back at dating market at one point, these are all valid points.

I guess at the beginning it does feel better if man pays the bill in the restaurant. But once you become steady, you can not expect that all that time. At my age, many of men have to still take care of their children, and their income will be limited by these responsibilities. and I do want responsible man, who won't throw all his money at me, while neglecting his kids, who should be his priority.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Interesting conversation. I will be back at dating market at one point, these are all valid points.
> 
> I guess at the beginning it does feel better if man pays the bill in the restaurant. But once you become steady, you can not expect that all that time. At my age, many of men have to still take care of their children, and their income will be limited by these responsibilities. and I do want responsible man, who won't throw all his money at me, while neglecting his kids, who should be his priority.


This is one of the reasons why I don't date men with kids. A small reason, but still a reason.

(My primary reason is that I don't want kids, biologically or step-ologically. If a man has kids, they will always be first priority and I will always be second and that's not what I want for myself. And I also don't want kids in any form, even if it's only half the time or every other weekend.)

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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> This is one of the reasons why I don't date men with kids. A small reason, but still a reason.
> 
> (My primary reason is that I don't want kids, biologically or step-ologically. If a man has kids, they will always be first priority and I will always be second and that's not what I want for myself. And I also don't want kids in any form, even if it's only half the time or every other weekend.)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


I completely understand. I will be divorcing, and I am not ready for dating. But if it comes, I surely do not want to add more kids to my life, especially younger ones. I paid my dues in that department already My two are enough for me.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

My mother and father would come out of the grave to smack me on the back of my head if I didn't hold a door, pay for the meal, open the car door, etc...
Just the way I was raised -- it makes me uncomfortable to NOT do those things. 
I've been married for 32 years, and i still hold the door, etc. for my wife (car door, not necessarily every time -- but > 50%) -- SO lucky for me I don't have to worry about the dating aspect of this question!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I think every relationship is different, but expectations should be set up front. If the date is going well and it’s someone I’d like to see again, I would pay. If I was with someone that EXPECTED me to pay, it would be our first, only and last date.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I completely understand. I will be divorcing, and I am not ready for dating. But if it comes, I surely do not want to add more kids to my life, especially younger ones. I paid my dues in that department already My two are enough for me.


You might be surprised at how many people don't understand, and who tell me that I'm being selfish or childish. They also thing I'm selfish for not wanting my own offspring, so whatever. I'm not going to date anyone who thinks that way anyway, so what do I care? 

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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I expected to pay on early dates. As things progressed, I expected my date to offer to pay occasionally, even if it was a small thing (particularly if she couldn't afford it). To me, that shows respect and a willingness to be a partner in the relationship. If she had a decent income, then I'd expect greater degree of reciprocity. If that didn't happen, I'd probably feel used and end the relationship.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

lovelygirl said:


> I came across these posts on IG (attached below) from an influencer who teaches about men and women in high society. She answered to some of the questions from her followers, regarding who should pay on dates.
> 
> 
> Do you agree with her? if yes, to what extent?? If no, why?
> ...


To be honest, I believe whoever invited the person on the date should pay.

Usually that is the guy. I think, if a man is courting a woman, he should pay....for the first few months.

Once they become a couple and date regularly, she should offer some.

If they have been dating a year, no I do not think he should always bear 100% of the dating cost.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

FeministInPink said:


> @lovelygirl I agree with most of what both you and the Insta influencer say. As a woman, all the things I have to do to be attractive and feminine for a date costs $$$. Women's clothing costs more, our toiletries cost more, our haircuts cost more, we have to buy makeup and get leg waxes and manicures and pedicures... all of these things cost us in both money and time. Men claim they don't care about this stuff, but in my experience, men gravitate towards women who are made-up and manicured, and ignore women who aren't. Not only that but the time spent getting ready for the date for a woman is significant, whereas most men put on a new shirt and call it good. All of this extra money and time women have to put in for a date when we still don't have equal pay.
> 
> If I have had to go through all that time and effort to go put on a date, so that I look good for a man, if he wants to see me again, he damn well better pay for dinner. It's called chivalry. If a man doesn't value me and my time enough to pay for dinner, then he is not the man for me. If he insists that we split the check, then he won't be getting a second date with me. A man paying the check is an investment in me and our potential relationship, because the man who is chivalrous with me and who treats me well... that man will be treated like a king. You treat the right woman like a queen, and she will treat you like a king.
> 
> ...


There is logic to that (although I dispute you have to spend lots of money to look attractive). I cannot disagree.

My only deviation from this....and one you really didn't claim to one way or the other...is if the courting phase is over, you are a committed couple that has been dating for a year or more then 1 person should not pay for the other 100% of the time.

If they feel the other should....forever I would 100% support them being dumped for they are selfish and egotistical.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> I think every relationship is different, but expectations should be set up front. If the date is going well and it’s someone I’d like to see again, I would pay. If I was with someone that EXPECTED me to pay, it would be our first, only and last date.


But as already mentioned here, don't you think if YOU asked her on a date that it would be ok for her to expect you to pay, without appearing "entitled"...?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> You might be surprised at how many people don't understand, and who tell me that I'm being selfish or childish. They also thing I'm selfish for not wanting my own offspring, so whatever. I'm not going to date anyone who thinks that way anyway, so what do I care?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


One of my sisters openly admitted to not wanting kids, and also got alot of the "that's just selfish", not only from our parents and her in-laws, but from her friends as well!! I told her to just embrace that - "YUP, I'm selfish...good thing I'm not having kids!" - and be ok with herself having that mindset -- what's wrong with being a little self-centered, if that's what makes you happy?! Besides, being a parent doesn't automatically mean you are a giving, unselfish person...I know PLENTY of selfish parents!!!

I think it's cool that you are YOU!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> You might be surprised at how many people don't understand, and who tell me that I'm being selfish or childish. They also thing I'm selfish for not wanting my own offspring, so whatever. I'm not going to date anyone who thinks that way anyway, so what do I care?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


People just need to mind their business. sometimes I think some of those with families are jealous, and want you to be as miserable as they are


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Whoever made the invitation should pay.

If I invited a woman on a date then I would pay. I would prefer her to say nothing about it. If a woman asked me out, I would not say a single word about paying. If she asks me out and expects to split the bill, I would pay my part and be done with her.

That being said, I have not dated in 20 years and probably wouldn't even if I somehow ended up single again.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

leftfield said:


> Whoever made the invitation should pay.
> 
> If I invited a woman on a date then I would pay. I would prefer her to say nothing about it. If a woman asked me out, I would not say a single word about paying. If she asks me out and expects to split the bill, I would pay my part and be done with her.
> 
> That being said, I have not dated in 20 years and probably wouldn't even if I somehow ended up single again.


So are you saying the opposite of what the other men who replied think -- that you WOULDN'T want her to say anything about splitting with you if you asked her out...?


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> So are you saying the opposite of what the other men who replied think -- that you WOULDN'T want her to say anything about splitting with you if you asked her out...?


Correct. If I have asked her out, I have already committed to taking care of the date. I would rather that nothing was said about payment. If she offered to split, I would let her know that I got it. If it went further than that, it would be a negative in my book.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

leftfield said:


> Correct. If I have asked her out, I have already committed to taking care of the date. I would rather that nothing was said about payment. If she offered to split, I would let her know that I got it. If it went further than that, it would be a negative in my book.


Oh UGH!!! All these different specific expectations...lord, I hope I never date again...I would totally suck at it...Lol!!!

What if she asked because she wanted to make sure you understood that she was ok with it...? Wouldn't the INTENT of it going further than that matter...like, maybe she's nervous and just trying to be NICE...?


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh UGH!!! All these different specific expectations...lord, I hope I never date again...I would totally suck at it...Lol!!!
> 
> What if she asked because she wanted to make sure you understood that she was ok with it...? Wouldn't the INTENT of it going further than that matter...like, maybe she's nervous and just trying to be NICE...?


As I said in my last post; one offer to pay is fine. If it goes beyond that then its not good.

When in doubt disregard anything I say about dating. I was never much of a dater.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

hinterdir said:


> There is logic to that (although I dispute you have to spend lots of money to look attractive). I cannot disagree.
> 
> My only deviation from this....and one you really didn't claim to one way or the other...is if the courting phase is over, you are a committed couple that has been dating for a year or more then 1 person should not pay for the other 100% of the time.
> 
> If they feel the other should....forever I would 100% support them being dumped for they are selfish and egotistical.


I did kind of address that in a separate comment. Once I get more into a relationship, I'm contributing in other ways... once you hit that point, you're not going out all the time, you're staying in just as often (if not more frequently), so I will bring food and cook for him, or I might bring carryout. I will buy tickets for something and surprise him. Or other things.

Generally, I still expect him to pay if we go out--but I contribute comparably in other ways.

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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

FeministInPink said:


> I did kind of address that in a separate comment. Once I get more into a relationship, I'm contributing in other ways... once you hit that point, you're not going out all the time, you're staying in just as often (if not more frequently), so I will bring food and cook for him, or I might bring carryout. I will buy tickets for something and surprise him. Or other things.
> 
> Generally, I still expect him to pay if we go out--but I contribute comparably in other ways.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Once you are a couple though....he isn't always asking you out on a specific date and planning everything you do. The lady brings up things that the couple also does....
It sounds like you either....1. Expect another human to plan every social thing you two do together....for life., or 2, you bring up things you want to go do, bring it up to him, you both go, you get there and then you stand their silently while you expect him to get out the wallet and pay for your date idea....3, unless I misunderstand, you expect this to go on basically forever....even if you are dating 5...10 years. That is 5 to 10 years of him paying for everything you two have ever done....but you fixed yourself up for some dates and made dinner a few times so it all good.

Ok.
Whatever.
Good luck.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> People just need to mind their business. sometimes I think some of those with families are jealous, and want you to be as miserable as they are


Oh, I absolutely agree! I think the people who pull this crap with me are actually unhappy with their choice (or it never occurred to them that they had a choice to NOT have kids in the first place), and they want everyone to be as miserable as they are, just to validate their own choice to have kids. 

My mom was miserable having kids, and she made sure we knew it, too. She made sure that we knew that we ruined her life (and her body) and she would have been SO much happier if she had never gotten married or had kids.

She was NOT happy with my decision to have kids, because she thought she deserved grandchildren. My sister gave her three grandkids, so I'm finally off the hook and no one brings it up anymore, not since I got divorced.

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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

leftfield said:


> As I said in my last post; one offer to pay is fine. If it goes beyond that then its not good.
> 
> When in doubt disregard anything I say about dating. I was never much of a dater.


I haven't ever really "dated" either...that's why it's so fascinating (and scary!) to me...Lol!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> Oh, I absolutely agree! I think the people who pull this crap with me are actually unhappy with their choice (or it never occurred to them that they had a choice to NOT have kids in the first place), and they want everyone to be as miserable as they are, just to validate their own choice to have kids.
> 
> *My mom was miserable having kids, and she made sure we knew it, too. She made sure that we knew that we ruined her life (and her body) and she would have been SO much happier if she had never gotten married or had kids.*
> 
> ...


THIS is absolutely heartbreaking and sad for all of you!!!! This makes me ANGRY at her...!!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> But as already mentioned here, don't you think if YOU asked her on a date that it would be ok for her to expect you to pay, without appearing "entitled"...?


I’m thinking in the online dating pool, not going up to someone and asking them out. If a woman didn’t even offer to pay (not saying I would let them), it would be a total turn off. By the views of some of the other women on this thread, I think it’s all best we stay single anyway. Lol


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I must say, the entitlement being displayed with some of these expectations is downright horrific to me. It’s not old fashioned, it’s more ‘I deserve this because I shaved for you today’. Wow, just wow....


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> I’m thinking in the online dating pool, not going up to someone and asking them out. If a woman didn’t even offer to pay (not saying I would let them), it would be a total turn off. By the views of some of the other women on this thread, I think it’s all best we stay single anyway. Lol


Lol!!! Noooo...now you DON'T mean that!!!

I still say all these opposing expectations, that change depending on who you are talking to, makes it all seem VERY intimidating to me...!!!!
And then...the expectations are different when online dating from in real life dating...?? I'll crawl back under my rock now - as a barefooted hippie-girl with no make up and no money...and who gets just as excited by McDonald's fries as she does by a plate of lobster (or whatever fancy stuff people get on dates)...!!! Lol!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

leftfield said:


> Whoever made the invitation should pay.
> 
> If I invited a woman on a date then I would pay. I would prefer her to say nothing about it. If a woman asked me out, I would not say a single word about paying. If she asks me out and expects to split the bill, I would pay my part and be done with her.
> 
> That being said, I have not dated in 20 years and probably wouldn't even if I somehow ended up single again.


This is an interesting scenario. I would definitely feel like a man courting a woman if I both asked a man out on a first date and also paid for dinner/the outing.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> If a woman didn’t even offer to pay (not saying I would let them), it would be a total turn off.


I do agree with the woman offering to pay (out of courtesy) but I prefer the man to insist that he's got it. As long as the woman's intent is that she should also conribute, then the man (_remember chivalry_) should insist on paying anyway.

I'm not saying he must be all the time, everytime...but still -most times.

Also, even for those couples who use the joint accounts - even if the money belongs to both of them (when married/living together) I still want the man to take out his wallet (even if the money is ours).

You understand my idea? I like the gesture.
Just like opening the doors. I can open them myself but it's better if the man does it.

Probably because my love language is acts of services.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I would definitely feel like a man courting a woman if I both asked a man out on a first date and also paid for dinner/the outing.


That would make me feel like the man. Ewwww🤢


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> This is an interesting scenario. I would definitely feel like a man courting a woman if I both asked a man out on a first date and also paid for dinner/the outing.


You would be a woman courting a man. And that is what you should feel like. 

My guess is you do not ask men out that is fine.


lovelygirl said:


> Also, even for those couples who use the joint accounts - even if the money belongs to both of them (when married/living together) I still want the man to take out his wallet (even if the money is ours).
> 
> You understand my idea? I like the gesture.
> Just like opening the doors. I can open them myself but it's better if the man does it.
> ...


I hate having a wallet in my pockets and my wife usually carries her license and one card in her pocket. Most often she is the one who has access to money when we go out. So when I pay for things, I ask her for the card and then pay. Haaa haaa. I'm sure many of you ladies would dislike that.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Livvie said:


> This is an interesting scenario. I would definitely feel like a man courting a woman if I both asked a man out on a first date and also paid for dinner/the outing.


So my WIFE asked ME out first -- but I paid for the drinks...


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

leftfield said:


> You would be a woman courting a man. And that is what you should feel like.
> 
> My guess is you do not ask men out that is fine.
> 
> ...


as long as your wife is okay with that, then who cares if we on the forum like it or dislike it.

After all she married you and she accepted that part of you. No big deal.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Well, I'm way younger than most posters, so my opinions are different. 

That said, the opinion displayed (and exercised by most girls my age that I date) is a huge sense of entitlement, and I hate it. More women are going to college and graduating than men, and I have to compete with women in the workplace for promotions on an equal plane. But when it comes to dating, equality goes out the window in the name of 'romance' because having to pay for one's meal doesn't make one feel special. But I also realize it's the time I live in, and I can't change it, I can only adapt. 

Do I like always having to do the asking for the first date? Not really (NONE of the girls I have dated ever made the first move) but I accept that I have to make the first move. Because if I don't, I know they have another 100 guys in their phone that will.

Do I like ALWAYS having to pay? Be it a dinner or round of drinks? (RANT: I've dated girls that make more than me, but guess who had to pay?) NO! But again, it's expected, and if I don't, I know they'll replace me with another guy in their phone that will. Makes me feel like nothing more than a dinner ATM. 

But it's society, and I can't change it. I've had to change my approach to dating, because it's the way things are. 
Do I wish girls at least offered to pay, or would pay after we've been dating for a month, or at the very least bought a round of drinks? Yeah, but I don't expect it.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, I'm way younger than most posters, so my opinions are different.
> 
> That said, the opinion displayed (and exercised by most girls my age that I date) is a huge sense of entitlement, and I hate it. More women are going to college and graduating than men, and I have to compete with women in the workplace for promotions on an equal plane. But when it comes to dating, equality goes out the window in the name of 'romance' because having to pay for one's meal doesn't make one feel special. But I also realize it's the time I live in, and I can't change it, I can only adapt.
> 
> ...


Broken, it’s not just your age group, believe me. I’m 49 and I see the hypocrisy all the time. The same women that think a man should pay for dinner are also getting alimony and child support checks from their ex’s.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Well, so this is the question. Women want to have a date paid for by the man so they can feel special. And the man gets the "pleasure of her company" out of it. Why is it like this? Why is it the female who is the one who is supposed to feel special? Why is it her company that is the coveted thing, and not his?


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

If I pay for a mans dinner on a first date that would be me showing him I’m extremely interested. I have done it with a man who asked me out when he excused himself to use the restroom during said dinner. I got a raised eyebrow from him and he got a stubborn grin in return. This was a year ago and we dated for a few months after that dinner so I didn’t totally turn him off.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> Broken, it’s not just your age group, believe me. I’m 49 and I see the hypocrisy all the time. The same women that think a man should pay for dinner are also getting alimony and child support checks from their ex’s.


Gold diggers are real, both male and female. The men are more stealthy about it so it’s way harder to spot but they definitely walk among us.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Well, so this is the question. Women want to have a date paid for by the man so they can feel special. And the man gets the "pleasure of her company" out of it. Why is it like this? Why is it the female who is the one who is supposed to feel special? Why is it her company that is the coveted thing, and not his?


The below is the historical, cultural perspective and not necessarily mine. It was a strong theme in lots of the books from 1700s-early 1900s so I can assume it was also a strong theme of the attitudes from that time period as well.

Unlike men, women have worth in their own right and not just in what they can provide. Previous assumptions that men had slightly more to offer materially (they made more and could accomplish more professionally) have diminished but not the concept that women can be worthy and worthwhile in themselves. Men could "earn" the right to address a charming woman and a man could be coveted if he was rich and/or powerful but it would not be for the pleasure of his company.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

nd


Broken at 20 said:


> Well, I'm way younger than most posters, so my opinions are different.
> 
> That said, the opinion displayed (and exercised by most girls my age that I date) is a huge sense of entitlement, and I hate it. More women are going to college and graduating than men, and I have to compete with women in the workplace for promotions on an equal plane. But when it comes to dating, equality goes out the window in the name of 'romance' because having to pay for one's meal doesn't make one feel special. But I also realize it's the time I live in, and I can't change it, I can only adapt.
> 
> ...


you know, when I met my husband we both were still in college (25 years ago). His major is a tough one, and he had to do a lot of studying, that would not leave time for work. I was almost done with mine, and had good job. Whenver we went out (and these weren't fancy restaurants, sometimes simply drinks), I was paying most of the time, pretending "oh, it's my turn now" . We both knew it wasn't but I had money, he did not. 
In terms of finances, it was a good investement on my part, his job pays way more than mine,, lol.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Well, so this is the question. Women want to have a date paid for by the man so they can feel special. And the man gets the "pleasure of her company" out of it. Why is it like this? Why is it the female who is the one who is supposed to feel special? Why is it her company that is the coveted thing, and not his?


There are really 2 reasons.

1. Tradition, society, evolution, whatever you want to call it. This is how dating and marriage has worked for every generation. This is the first generation where men and women are actually on an equal playing field economically, but women still expect special treatment romantically. And it's reinforced in media, so it's not going to change any time soon (especially given reason #2)

2. Women reap the benefits of the current system.
What are they gonna do? Say that this cultural expectation where guys have to do the asking, and the paying, is unfair? Of course not!
And it's the way the dating market works. The general rule of thumb, men are attracted to 80% of women, but 80% of attracted to only 20% of men. Therefore, (assuming you're not that 20%) when you're on a date with the average woman, there a bunch of guys that would happily take your place to have a chance with her. The average woman has more men chasing her than the average man has women chasing him.



Not said:


> Gold diggers are real, both male and female. The men are more stealthy about it so it’s way harder to spot but they definitely walk among us.


The men are harder to spot because there are FEWER of them.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> There are really 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. Tradition, society, evolution, whatever you want to call it. This is how dating and marriage has worked for every generation. This is the first generation where men and women are actually on an equal playing field economically, but women still expect special treatment romantically. And it's reinforced in media, so it's not going to change any time soon (especially given reason #2)
> 
> ...


Broken, you need to work a little on yourself. You sound very bitter. it can not be because of the society standards, I hope?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Not said:


> Gold diggers are real, both male and female. The men are more stealthy about it so it’s way harder to spot but they definitely walk among us.


I agree. Scammers are gender neutral. But some of the replies and thought processes exposed on this thread is exactly why I would never get married again. If I was a single woman looking for a husband, I would have a serious look in the mirror about my beliefs. Feminism only seems to work when it’s convenient for the feminist.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> The below is the historical, cultural perspective and not necessarily mine. It was a strong theme in lots of the books from 1700s-early 1900s so I can assume it was also a strong theme of the attitudes from that time period as well.
> 
> Unlike men, women have worth in their own right and not just in what they can provide. Previous assumptions that men had slightly more to offer materially (they made more and could accomplish more professionally) have diminished but not the concept that women can be worthy and worthwhile in themselves. Men could "earn" the right to address a charming woman and a man could be coveted if he was rich and/or powerful but it would not be for the pleasure of his company.


I do get this impression of this cultural belief. I never felt that way myself, like I was more special than a man I was dating or in a relationship with, just because I'm a female, I've never understood it.

But, since this is a prevailing cultural norm, those woman who do not have men feeling this way about them do realize that there are women who DO get treated this way, and that sucks.


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> I agree. Scammers are gender neutral. But some of the replies and thought processes exposed on this thread is exactly why I would never get married again. If I was a single woman looking for a husband, I would have a serious look in the mirror about my beliefs. Feminism only seems to work when it’s convenient for the feminist.


Through the many conversations I’ve had with men over the past year of dating I can confirm they weren’t interested in marriage and so much of it has to do with the entitlement they pick up from women.

What’s interesting to me though is that I also picked up on this thing that men do. When they meet a woman they’re really into the men practically fall all over themselves trying to win her over. It’s like once the man figures out she isn’t materialistic and really does like him for him as much as he likes her for her then he begins to treat her the way all these entitled women want to be treated from the get go. So that leaves me wondering if maybe, just maybe it’s not really entitlement but maybe these women are looking for _that_, which is so hard to find.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Not said:


> Through the many conversations I’ve had with men over the past year of dating I can confirm they weren’t interested in marriage and so much of it has to do with the entitlement they pick up from women.
> 
> What’s interesting to me though is that I also picked up on this thing that men do. When they meet a woman they’re really into the men practically fall all over themselves trying to win her over. It’s like once the man figures out she isn’t materialistic and really does like him for him as much as he likes her for her then he begins to treat her the way all these entitled women want to be treated from the get go. So that leaves me wondering if maybe, just maybe it’s not really entitlement but maybe these women are looking for that _that_, which is so hard to find.


Most guys on dating sites are not looking for marriage despite what their profile may say. They are looking to get laid. End of story. The guys you describe above are out there, in large numbers, and they are beta’s. These are the men that will spend all sorts of crazy money to get laid and keep getting laid. I respect the women I’ve met that didn’t give it up right away. Sorry for t/j.

That said, I would pay for a first date, hell, even the first few dates if that’s what I DECIDED to do. If I was told to, or expected to, that would be the end of the line for me.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Broken at 20 said:


> There are really 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. Tradition, society, evolution, whatever you want to call it. This is how dating and marriage has worked for every generation. This is the first generation where men and women are actually on an equal playing field economically, but women still expect special treatment romantically. And it's reinforced in media, so it's not going to change any time soon (especially given reason #2)
> 
> ...


Broken, 

When I was in my teens (about 25+ years ago) I realized that the expectations of society regarding dating were a bunch of bunk. So I wrote my own rules to dating and they served me very well. I suggest you try something different than what you are doing.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Broken, you need to work a little on yourself. You sound very bitter. it can not be because of the society standards, I hope?


I will 100% admit I am mentally and emotionally damaged. I'm the illegitimate child of an affair that was disowned by my entire family. And had a ex that cheated on me with some big, muscled Chad that wrecked her car (I should've bought a lotto ticket when I found out. I was batting 1.000 at the time).

Do I talk on a date like I do on this site? Of course not! But society and the majority of women I date operate in a way similar to the original post, expecting the guy to always pay. So I changed my behavior accordingly.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

But isn't it all relative?

If I remember correctly, you had very specific requirements about dating during the pandemic.

And aren't your views about quick, casual sex much the same? Full of expectations and entitlement? Why exactly do you deserve sex after a first, second or third date?

If a woman wants to be treated well during dating, and she can find men who enjoy accommodating, then why is that a problem for you? Why is it so horrific?



RebuildingMe said:


> I must say, the entitlement being displayed with some of these expectations is downright horrific to me. It’s not old fashioned, it’s more ‘I deserve this because I shaved for you today’. Wow, just wow....


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I met my now husband on POF 8 years ago. I am now 52. We had our first "meet" at a local hipster burger joint. When we were in line to order, I told him were were going dutch. Okay, he said.

Later when we parted ways and he called to see if I got home safely, he said he had never been on a date where a woman offered to go dutch. I was really surprised by that.

To be fair, it was our first face to face meeting. So not really a date? I would not have been cool with him paying. I didn't want him to get the wrong idea--that I was out for a free meal. I can pay my own bills and for my own meals, thank you very much.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

For me, this issue is not about entitlement, it's a preference. 

I am financially independent. I can afford to feed myself. However, there is something about a man picking up the check without second thought that attracts me. 

Maybe it's because I associate that behavior with someone strong/decisive/capable (don't know) or it reminds me of my dad (he spoiled us rotten). Suffice it to say, it's ingrained in me. 

The opposite, a man who wants to split the bill or cringes at the bill, turns me off. It automatically makes me think "friend". I don't think anything negative of them but it removes the possibility of romantic partner.

When I was dating, if it was someone I had met online, then I NEVER agreed to anything more than coffee or a happy hour drink. Cheap, easy, and during daylight hours.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> Most guys on dating sites are not looking for marriage despite what their profile may say. They are looking to get laid. End of story. The guys you describe above are out there, in large numbers, and they are beta’s. These are the men that will spend all sorts of crazy money to get laid and keep getting laid. I respect the women I’ve met that didn’t give it up right away. Sorry for t/j.
> 
> That said, I would pay for a first date, hell, even the first few dates if that’s what I DECIDED to do. If I was told to, or expected to, that would be the end of the line for me.


It’s not quite that black and white.

Many men are looking for their person, so many. When I began online dating I got a bit depressed knowing just how many extremely lonely people were out there looking and experiencing let down after let down. Everyone wants good sex lol! Great sex preferably!

My very alpha BF was having trouble finding a woman who wasn’t looking for just sex or a man with money or a woman who wasn’t a serial dater. He was looking for his person and while great sex was part of what he was hoping to find sex definitely was just part of the total package he hoped to find.

He also is the type who won’t let a woman pay on a first date, even if he doesn’t want to see her again. Chivalrous to the core. He’s been in a few fistfights defending woman who had been insulted or treated badly in front of him.

I think with me he saw how seriously I felt about the issue of who pays and why and he liked me enough to respect my feelings on the matter. I was an exception.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

minimalME said:


> But isn't it all relative?
> 
> If I remember correctly, you had very specific requirements about dating during the pandemic.
> 
> ...


I think you are confusing my views on sex with my views on paying for dates. I have had quick sex while dating, and the girl I’m into the most right now I haven’t had sex yet (we are both getting tested for std’s) first because it is the responsible thing to do. I am monogamous, so I’m not having multiple sex partners at the same time.

The girl I am currently dating is an OT at a hospital. She is very independent and has a good job like I do. We are alternating picking up checks. That is part of the reason I am so attracted to her, well beyond looks.She shares much of the same views as me. She is NOT a feminist and doesn’t seem entitled to pull out that card when it works for her.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Not said:


> It’s not quite that black and white.
> 
> Many men are looking for their person, so many. When I began online dating I got a bit depressed knowing just how many extremely lonely people were out there looking and experiencing let down after let down. Everyone wants good sex lol! Great sex preferably!
> 
> ...


Not, I’ve read your story on the singles thread and you were an inspiration to me when I was meeting so many women that were “Covid scared”. I changed my dating profile partly because of your story and giving me the knowledge that there were women left in America that were still willing to leave their houses. I’m glad you found your guy and I’m at happy for you that you are happy with him! He sounds like a wonderful man!!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

No. I'm not confused. 

You're being a hypocrite. You want to create subjective dating rules that work for you in the moment, while denying others that same freedom.



RebuildingMe said:


> I think you are confusing my views on sex with my views on paying for dates.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Lila said:


> For me, this issue is not about entitlement, it's a preference.
> 
> I am financially independent. I can afford to feed myself. However, there is something about a man picking up the check without second thought that attracts me.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion, Lila, on a lot of issues. I do find it sad though that you equate picking up a check with possibly being romantic with that person. However, I realize that everyone has dealbreakers. If I remember correctly, you once posted a list with like 20 of them.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

minimalME said:


> No. I'm not confused.
> 
> You're being a hypocrite. You want to create subjective dating rules that work for you in the moment, while denying others that same freedom.


How so? Because I don’t want to be expected to pick up the check? I also don’t expect sex on the first date either. How am I hypocritical?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> I respect your opinion, Lila, on a lot of issues. *I do find it sad though that you equate picking up a check with possibly being romantic with that person.* However, I realize that everyone has dealbreakers. If I remember correctly, you once posted a list with like 20 of them.


I don't equate picking up the check with a date's possibility of being romantic. 

I do equate picking up the check with personality and character traits that I find very attractive. 

I am not sure why this is something that makes you sad?


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

leftfield said:


> Broken,
> 
> When I was in my teens (about 25+ years ago) I realized that the expectations of society regarding dating were a bunch of bunk. So I wrote my own rules to dating and they served me very well. I suggest you try something different than what you are doing.


Because I am not trying to change society. I merely live in it.

Many of the women in this thread have said they would be turned off if they were expected to pay for their meal on a date. Instead, they find it attractive when a man offers to pay. I don't expect that to change in my lifetime. It's ingrained in people's minds. The man pays. 

So I have to adjust my dating approach so my wallet can handle it.
To avoid the expense of dinner, I only do drink dates for the first couple, then if I like her enough, I'll suggest a dinner date for #3.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Lila said:


> I don't equate picking up the check with a date's possibility of being romantic.


That’s not what you said. You said if a man doesn’t pick up the check or wants to split it, it “removes” his chances at romance. This after you saying you are financially independent.
Your words, not mine.

So, in other words, the only way a guy would have a shot with you is if he paid the bill. Correct?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> That’s not what you said. You said if a man doesn’t pick up the check or wants to split it, it “removes” his chances at romance. This after you saying you are financially independent.
> Your words, not mine.


I think we are using the word Romantic where it could mean different things. I am using romantic to describe the actual person I'm dating as in "he such a romantic guy". You are using romantic to describe the relationship as in "will I get romantic with this date". 

You are right. I lose sexual desire for men who want to split the bill. No judgement from me about the quality of that person as a human being, however I do associate paying the check with attributes that *I* find attractive. 

We all have preferences - physical, personality, etc. Why is this any different?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

My rules are pretty simple; whoever did the asking out, pays. Never really been an issue that has come up yet. Usually by the third or fourth date I usually pick up the checks anyway.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Lila said:


> We all have preferences - physical, personality, etc. Why is this any different?


Because the way I’m reading what you are saying, you are actually putting a price tag on whether or not a guy has a shot having sex with you. That’s a slippery slope.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Temporary threadjack:

Just noticed at the bottom of the page in the ''Recommended Reading'' section ''Who should pay on dates?'' A thread started by the very same LovelyGirl in 2017, lol

/threadjack


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Lila said:


> I think we are using the word Romantic where it could mean different things. I am using romantic to describe the actual person I'm dating as in "he such a romantic guy". You are using romantic to describe the relationship as in "will I get romantic with this date".
> 
> You are right. I lose sexual desire for men who want to split the bill. No judgement from me about the quality of that person as a human being, however I do associate paying the check with attributes that *I* find attractive.
> 
> We all have preferences - physical, personality, etc. Why is this any different?


Well, it kinda makes you sound shallow. Unless a guy pays for you, you lose sexual attraction? Sort of sounds like a... word I wouldn't want to use around a moderator. And you even said you're financially stable. 
And trust me, you're not the only woman who feels/thinks this way. I honestly don't think I've met a woman that feels any different than you do. 

And that's what's annoying as a guy. I've dated a couple women that made more than me, but I still had to pay for all the dates. If we're supposedly equal, why do I have to do all the paying? Because if I don't, you lose attraction. 
After that experience, I have decided that I am never dating a woman with more education or income than myself. They had such high expectations, that it was really hard for me to meet them. I'd rather date the secretary that makes half what I make because if I have to pay the date, it costs far less to take her out than the one who makes more.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

leftfield said:


> Broken,
> 
> When I was in my teens (about 25+ years ago) I realized that the expectations of society regarding dating were a bunch of bunk. So I wrote my own rules to dating and they served me very well. I suggest you try something different than what you are doing.


This is the best advice I have heard yet


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Because the way I’m reading what you are saying, you are actually putting a price tag on whether or not a guy has a shot having sex with you. That’s a slippery slope.


Rest assured it's not about the price tag or dating "pay to play". It's about the emotions the action of paying for the bill evoke. It's about making me feel carefree, cared for, and yes, a priority (however that's defined). It has meaning beyond "free meal ticket" to me.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, it kinda makes you sound shallow. Unless a guy pays for you, you lose sexual attraction? Sort of sounds like a... word I wouldn't want to use around a moderator. And you even said you're financially stable.
> And trust me, you're not the only woman who feels/thinks this way. I honestly don't think I've met a woman that feels any different than you do.
> 
> And that's what's annoying as a guy. I've dated a couple women that made more than me, but I still had to pay for all the dates. If we're supposedly equal, why do I have to do all the paying? Because if I don't, you lose attraction.
> After that experience, I have decided that I am never dating a woman with more education or income than myself. They had such high expectations, that it was really hard for me to meet them. I'd rather date the secretary that makes half what I make because if I have to pay the date, it costs far less to take her out than the one who makes more.


Good luck brother. A wise women I speak to on this site once told me that most of the single women on TAM honesty hate men. Now finding out the exception is when it comes time to pick up the check. Lol


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, it kinda makes you sound shallow. Unless a guy pays for you, you lose sexual attraction? Sort of sounds like a... word I wouldn't want to use around a moderator. And you even said you're financially stable.
> And trust me, you're not the only woman who feels/thinks this way. I honestly don't think I've met a woman that feels any different than you do.
> 
> And that's what's annoying as a guy. I've dated a couple women that made more than me, but I still had to pay for all the dates. If we're supposedly equal, why do I have to do all the paying? Because if I don't, you lose attraction.
> After that experience, I have decided that I am never dating a woman with more education or income than myself. They had such high expectations, that it was really hard for me to meet them. I'd rather date the secretary that makes half what I make because if I have to pay the date, it costs far less to take her out than the one who makes more.


Well if it makes me shallow to prefer guys who pick up the tab over guys who split bills, then everyone is shallow for having one particular preference (physical, behavioral, etc) over another. 

And you're making a big assumption of all women. Other women have posted here that they either don't care or actually prefer to split bills. 

Do what makes you feel comfortable or that you can afford. The right and woman will be compatible.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Lila said:


> Rest assured it's not about the price tag or dating "pay to play". It's about the emotions the action of paying for the bill evoke. It's about making me feel carefree, cared for, and yes, a priority (however that's defined). It has meaning beyond "free meal ticket" to me.


I see what you mean very clearly and it’s why I prefer to pay my own way. I want the man to see that my character isn’t all about free meals. There is so much more to me than that. I think this is what’s missing from this thread. The _intentions_ behind what we all choose to do in regards to who pays and _why_.


----------



## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Not said:


> Through the many conversations I’ve had with men over the past year of dating I can confirm they weren’t interested in marriage and so much of it has to do with the entitlement they pick up from women.
> 
> What’s interesting to me though is that I also picked up on this thing that men do. When they meet a woman they’re really into the men practically fall all over themselves trying to win her over. It’s like once the man figures out she isn’t materialistic and really does like him for him as much as he likes her for her then he begins to treat her the way all these entitled women want to be treated from the get go. So that leaves me wondering if maybe, just maybe it’s not really entitlement but maybe these women are looking for that _that_, which is so hard to find.


THIS^^^^^

I am by NO MEANS a gold digger, and I carry my weight in a relationship, no matter what Rebuilding Me is insinuating about me.

I have been treated like crap by almost every single man I've ever been involved with, and for a long time I put up with it. But I'm done with that. I deserve a man who treats me well. I said it before, and maybe some of you missed reading it, but the man who courts me, wins my heart, and treats me like a queen... that man will be treated like a king by me.

But I'm tired of man-childs who expect the kind treatment when all they give me is scraps. 

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> THIS^^^^^
> 
> I am by NO MEANS a gold digger, and I carry my weight in a relationship, no matter what Rebuilding Me is insinuating about me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have had personal difficulties. I would suggest IC.

I have not called you out specifically, but I certainly appreciate that you called me out. I hope you find the peace that you deserve.

If something is not working for you, you might what to change it up. That’s all the advice I’ve got for you.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Not said:


> I think this is what’s missing from this thread. The _intentions_ behind what we all choose to do in regards to who pays and _why_.


Yes, intentions would probably be beneficial to the discussion. At the very least it can show how different people perceive situations/actions differently.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> Good luck brother. A wise women I speak to on this site once told me that most of the single women on TAM honesty hate men. Now finding out the exception is when it comes time to pick up the check. Lol


I assume you're joking...but I can't tell.......But I don't believe that. Just like people on this thread might think I hate women given my post. I don't. I hate everyone equally. 
They need to put some font style or something in here that makes it easier to tell when someone is joking or being sarcastic. 



Lila said:


> Well if it makes me shallow to prefer guys who pick up the tab over guys who split bills, then everyone is shallow for having one particular preference (physical, behavioral, etc) over another.
> 
> And you're making a big assumption of all women. Other women have posted here that they either don't care or actually prefer to split bills.
> 
> Do what makes you feel comfortable or that you can afford. The right and woman will be compatible.


Lol, you'll get no fight from me on this. I'll openly admit I'm shallow. If I'm not sexually attracted, I have no interest what so ever. In my opinion, it's either there or it isn't, it's not something you can force. 

And I don't believe all women are one way or another when it comes to paying on dates. But I do believe that a MAJORITY of women expect and want the man to pay, based on my personal dating experience, and this thread. Are there women out there who would pay? Of course there are, but they seem to be in the minority. And I don't plan my life around the minorities. 

Am I bitter? If enough people think I am, then probably. Whether that is due to my train wreck of a personal life, or my experience dating, I can't say because I can't separate them. 
But this is just how I see things. And it's difficult to see them from another POV.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Because I am not trying to change society. I merely live in it.
> 
> Many of the women in this thread have said they would be turned off if they were expected to pay for their meal on a date. Instead, they find it attractive when a man offers to pay. I don't expect that to change in my lifetime. It's ingrained in people's minds. The man pays.
> 
> ...


Broken, there are lots of ways to date creatively and on a budget, where you can still pay/show your chivalry and still not break the bank.

Also, women appreciate creative date ideas and won't mind if you don't spend a lot of money. 

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, it kinda makes you sound shallow. Unless a guy pays for you, you lose sexual attraction? Sort of sounds like a... word I wouldn't want to use around a moderator. And you even said you're financially stable.
> And trust me, you're not the only woman who feels/thinks this way. I honestly don't think I've met a woman that feels any different than you do.
> 
> And that's what's annoying as a guy. I've dated a couple women that made more than me, but I still had to pay for all the dates. If we're supposedly equal, why do I have to do all the paying? Because if I don't, you lose attraction.
> After that experience, I have decided that I am never dating a woman with more education or income than myself. They had such high expectations, that it was really hard for me to meet them. I'd rather date the secretary that makes half what I make because if I have to pay the date, it costs far less to take her out than the one who makes more.


Broken, you and soem other folks here are not connecting the dots, so Im going to spell it out.

It's not about the money.

Paying for the date is a very alpha thing to do. It is the man taking initiative and showing that he can take care of business, that he has a dominant nature. It is the man TAKING CONTROL and exhibiting leadership.

That is what makes the man attractive, not the money.

These men don't whine or complain about spending the money because they understand it's not about the money. The money doesn't matter. It could be as expensive as paying for a fancy five-star dinner, or as inexpensive as paying for coffee or ice cream. He is communicating to the woman, "You don't need to worry, I will take care of you."

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, I'm way younger than most posters, so my opinions are different.
> 
> That said, the opinion displayed (and exercised by most girls my age that I date) is a huge sense of entitlement, and I hate it. More women are going to college and graduating than men, and I have to compete with women in the workplace for promotions on an equal plane. But when it comes to dating, equality goes out the window in the name of 'romance' because having to pay for one's meal doesn't make one feel special. But I also realize it's the time I live in, and I can't change it, I can only adapt.
> 
> ...


the problem that I have is that if you do anything to meet a guy half way, he thinks less of you.

when I met my second husband, we were introduced. I was with a friend who wanted to go somewhere to eat. Since he was alone, I invited him to join us. After a few dates, we went to a picnic of an organization I am a member of. We left there to go to a pub (we were in London at the time). Suddenly, at suddenly to me, he tells me that I was coming on to him that whole evening. he couldn't get rid. what I figured out later on, he had texting his special friend throughout the day. What I think is interesting is that I was left with the feeling that obviously he had some other options.

When I finally worked up the nerve to ask him whether his special friend approached him the first time or vice versa, he told me he couldn't remember.

Another interesting situation that I was in, I was dating a guy in college, who told me that his ex gf had 3 kids. None of them were his, of course. Well, he had no money to date. But this was the 80s and I guess I had some middle class angst. But man, it's gets so annoying he wanted to borrow my car to help out the kids that weren't his. He outright asked to borrow a 3 figure sum. I tapered off that relationship.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

And I still say it's SCARY that each person on this thread has definite ideas of how they judge their date based on if they pay, if they want to pay, if they are ok with paying their share, if they only offer to pay their share once, if they are ok with going dutch...did I miss any...??
So I could go on a date, have the best intentions of being willing to pay my share or not, but not offer it enough times, OR offer it TOO MANY times, and be put in a bad light based on that...??? And that doesn't even include regular conversation and how I would handle sex/no sex/ some sex...?? 

YIKES!!!!! WHO is brave enough for all that...? Lol!!!


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> THIS^^^^^
> 
> I am by NO MEANS a gold digger, and I carry my weight in a relationship, no matter what Rebuilding Me is insinuating about me.
> 
> ...


I get this. On the flip side I think enough men have been burned by entitled princesses that they now refuse to cater to yet another princess. And I get that too.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> Broken, there are lots of ways to date creatively and on a budget, where you can still pay/show your chivalry and still not break the bank.
> 
> Also, women appreciate creative date ideas and won't mind if you don't spend a lot of money.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Oh I am well aware of them. I often offer to cook for dates, because it's always cheaper than going out, I can show off my cooking skills, and I have been complimented on my bachelor pad by several dates. And...if I'm being 100% honest, it also forces me to keep my apartment clean, because I am usually a pretty messy person.



FeministInPink said:


> These men don't whine or complain about spending the money because they understand it's not about the money. The money doesn't matter. It could be as expensive as paying for a fancy five-star dinner, or as inexpensive as paying for coffee or ice cream. He is communicating to the woman, *"You don't need to worry, I will take care of you."*


And, this is what annoys me. And why I will never date a woman that is my 'equal' or better, in terms of income, job, education, whatever. 
Women are supposed to be my equal. I've been competing with them my entire life in school and work. 
EXCEPT when it comes to dating, they want special treatment. Why do you need taking care of? If you want an equal partner, then you should be able to cover your own expenses. 
But I know why I have to pay. Because if I don't, the lady can go to Tinder and get 200 guys to replace me. 
End of rant.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Not said:


> I get this. On the flip side I think enough men have been burned by entitled princesses that they now refuse to cater to yet another princess. And I get that too.


I think that's fair. Any man who bothers to take the time to get to know me knows I'm not a princess. 

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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> Broken, you and soem other folks here are not connecting the dots, so Im going to spell it out.
> 
> It's not about the money.
> 
> ...


Now this I very much agree with! This is how I feel about it.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> And, this is what annoys me. And why I will never date a woman that is my 'equal' or better, in terms of income, job, education, whatever.
> Women are supposed to be my equal. I've been competing with them my entire life in school and work.
> EXCEPT when it comes to dating, they want special treatment. Why do you need taking care of? If you want an equal partner, then you should be able to cover your own expenses.
> But I know why I have to pay. Because if I don't, the lady can go to Tinder and get 200 guys to replace me.
> End of rant.


Again, you're not getting it. Read between the lines, dude. 

"I'll take care of you" has nothing to do with money!

It means, I will protect you, you are safe with me, I’ve got you. You can trust me to take care of you.

ETA: I will take care of you EMOTIONALLY.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Oh I am well aware of them. I often offer to cook for dates, because it's always cheaper than going out, I can show off my cooking skills, and I have been complimented on my bachelor pad by several dates. And...if I'm being 100% honest, it also forces me to keep my apartment clean, because I am usually a pretty messy person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay so here is my question again. At the base of it all: in this current time, why is it the woman who gets special treatment and taken care of?

Why do women feel like they are going to get taken care of in this way?

ETA if it makes a woman feel taken care of emotionally to be paid for, what do women do to make men feel taken care of emotionally on the date? Or do men not need to feel taken care of?

Still wondering why it's one sided...


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> Again, you're not getting it. Read between the lines, dude.
> 
> "I'll take care of you" has nothing to do with money!
> 
> ...


Maybe this is where the miss-connect is. 

Again, your words were: 
"Paying for the date is a very alpha thing to do. It is the man taking initiative and showing that he can take care of business, that he has a dominant nature. It is the man TAKING CONTROL and exhibiting leadership."

And that paying, somehow means "It means, I will protect you, you are safe with me, I’ve got you. You can trust me to take care of you. ETA: I will take care of you EMOTIONALLY."

Granted, Ive been told I'm emotionally dead inside (from more than just dates), so maybe that's where the disconnect comes in. But I don't think offering to pay = taking care of you emotionally. Nor do I think it means the guy is an alpha, that can take charge. Because even a beta male knows he has to pay on the date. 

But that might be splitting hairs at this point.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

“I definitely like independent women. Don’t want a woman that needs a man to take care of her but wants a man that spoils her with affection”

This is copied from my BF’s dating profile when I met him which I took screen shots of. 

It’s got a great balance to it and shows some very clear thinking on his part. He likes for a woman to be self sufficient yet at the same time will treat her like a queen _because_ he sees her value. 

Once that value is seen in one another the “who pays for what” becomes a show of affection. 

This takes time though, it’s not going to be seen on a first date by either party. Or even a second or third date.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Okay so here is my question again. At the base of it all: in this current time, why is it the woman who gets special treatment and taken care of?
> 
> Why do women feel like they are going to get taken care of in this way?


Because of my first post on this thread. It has been this way for generations, and is never going to change. 

Because the average woman has far more men chasing her than the average man has women chasing him. So if he wants to spend time with her, he better make it worth her time. Because if he doesn't, he can easily be replaced with another guy who will. 

And no amount of complaining is ever going to change it.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

FeministInPink said:


> I think that's fair. Any man who bothers to take the time to get to know me knows I'm not a princess.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Yes. It’ll take time for him to see that though.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My brother said dating a vegetarian save you money.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Because of my first post on this thread. It has been this way for generations, and is never going to change.
> 
> Because the average woman has far more men chasing her than the average man has women chasing him. So if he wants to spend time with her, he better make it worth her time. Because if he doesn't, he can easily be replaced with another guy who will.
> 
> And no amount of complaining is ever going to change it.


Well then does that mean that less attractive women don't get their dates paid for?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I haven’t dated in a bit. But if I’m paying (in general), the only way the check is coming to the table is with my card being returned, looking for a tip and signature (and hopefully I’d have already carried out those formalities).


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Broken at 20 said:


> Because of my first post on this thread. It has been this way for generations, and is never going to change.
> 
> Because the average woman has far more men chasing her than the average man has women chasing him. So if he wants to spend time with her, he better make it worth her time. Because if he doesn't, he can easily be replaced with another guy who will.
> 
> And no amount of complaining is ever going to change it.


We’re not all like that though. I don’t think like those women at all, maybe because I’m older (47) and have more empathy, who knows. Those are the women to avoid, just don’t assume they’re all doing the same thing. Some have genuine intentions which just happen to include preferring the man to pay. It wouldn’t be a bad idea at all to make this a topic of conversation with these women before you meet with them. Get a feel for where they’re coming from.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I would have gladly paid my way. But then all the guy does is find someone else on whom he can spend money.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> But society and the majority of women I date operate in a way similar to the original post, expecting the guy to always pay. So I changed my behavior accordingly.





Broken at 20 said:


> I will 100% admit I am mentally and emotionally damaged. I'm the illegitimate child of an affair that was disowned by my entire family. And had a ex that cheated on me with some big, muscled Chad that wrecked her car (I should've bought a lotto ticket when I found out. I was batting 1.000 at the time).
> 
> Do I talk on a date like I do on this site? Of course not! But society and the majority of women I date operate in a way similar to the original post, expecting the guy to always pay. So I changed my behavior accordingly.


man, I am a bastard too who cares anymore?
Maybe you are attracted to the wrong type of women? I assure you there are many nice girls out there.
There is an idea: what if your attitude (and you do not have to say it, it will come through your face, body language, that you are rather pissed off with women) -what if that attitude scares the nice ones away, and you have to go those with issues ? You complain girls feel entitled to free dinner. It seems like you feel entitled to better girls than what you are getting.

my advice -work on yourself. Get into therapy. Deal with your past family issues, and current ones. This will be money best spent.
you figure out what you want - and your dates will be different. Because you’ll make different choices.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> Sounds like you have had personal difficulties. I would suggest IC.
> 
> I have not called you out specifically, but I certainly appreciate that you called me out. I hope you find the peace that you deserve.
> 
> If something is not working for you, you might what to change it up. That’s all the advice I’ve got for you.





Livvie said:


> Okay so here is my question again. At the base of it all: in this current time, why is it the woman who gets special treatment and taken care of?
> 
> Why do women feel like they are going to get taken care of in this way?
> 
> ...





FeministInPink said:


> I think that's fair. Any man who bothers to take the time to get to know me knows I'm not a princess.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


i think you’re selling a bridge. I’m not buying it for a second. You are loud and clear with your opinions and your user name speaks VOLUMES. 

Hey, want to go out? My treat!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Maybe this is where the miss-connect is.
> 
> Again, your words were:
> "Paying for the date is a very alpha thing to do. It is the man taking initiative and showing that he can take care of business, that he has a dominant nature. It is the man TAKING CONTROL and exhibiting leadership."
> ...


The point is, the beta thinks he has to pay for the date, because he is being submissive.

The alpha/dominant knows he doesn't have to; he chooses to.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> i think you’re selling a bridge. I’m not buying it for a second. You are loud and clear with your opinions and your user name speaks VOLUMES.
> 
> Hey, want to go out? My treat!


I wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot pole.

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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> I wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot pole.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Relax, I was joking. Geez.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Damn, all the fun stuff happens when Kitty's away! I'm used to the men in my life taking care of me, but they know I took care of them. When I started dating after my divorce last year, I kept it simple and cheap because I didn't want to owe anyone anything. I do get where some of you ladies are coming from, with wanting to feel special and taken care of, that part of the male/female dance is a beautiful thing indeed, but not when it's begrudging. These days everyone is so suspicious of each other, why do we need to be so adversarial? Be a lover, not a fighter !

My first date with my guy was at a local museum (I have a membership), I asked him out, he was dithering, despite the clear mutual interest. I don't know how people can quibble about who pays for what meal, we couldn't eat a damned thing for the entire day  (our date was like 3 dates rolled into one, 10-7)! We were both so nervous and too busy talking and kissing and just enjoying the day. He asked me to have dinner with him before he headed home, we went to a casual place nearby, I didn't even think to ask about paying. He just said it was his treat, especially since I used my pass for us and his parking and that was that.

We haven't really gone on dates, but we've spent a lot of time together despite our commitments and schedule conflicts. We live 40 mins apart, but he does all the driving and comes to me, as I'm not driving at the moment. I cook or order in, so it's been very equitable. He's not much of a cook, and loves coming over and being spoilt- he spoils me in other ways . He's a divorced dad who had a few career setbacks, so I don't expect him to spend money on me, he simply can't. I value his time and affection, I like LOTS of affection, and though we had a rocky start when he ran scared after I told him how I felt, he really stepped it up when I told him if he wasn't interested, I was moving on.

At the end of the day, how much do you WANT the man? It was truly electric from the get-go and rather scary, I'm only now getting my stride and feeling more confident with whatever this is. He explained his situation to me on our second date, and I can't fault the man for living within his means. That's an attractive quality to me after being married to a philanderer and spendthrift for so long. Do I wish he was more generous? I thought about it, and I'd rather have more of his time than his money, as "special" as it feels to be wined and dined. My ex-husband was a very generous spender, so generous he ran up CC debt on his little *****. 

I see everyone's point of view, even across the sex divide. Honesty is the best policy, just ask a question when you accept a date if something's going to be a dealbreaker. Or feel the other person out, the worst thing is they won't go out with you, but there'll be no hard feelings and no bitterness. I saw some ladies mention the "work" to look "good", and men's expectations and men mention women's entitlement to being treated. What kind of man are the ladies who invest in their appearance looking for and what kind of women are the men who are bitter about paying for a woman's company expecting to date, with regards to their own appearance?

Personally I enjoy looking good, regardless of if a man is paying or not. I'm not a supermodel or anything like that, but dolling up boosts my confidence and I can relax and have fun. I can't seem to be able to put on makeup when my guy's coming over, he always shows up early, so it's not like never sees me barefaced. Honestly, reading some of the frustration across the board, I think everyone would benefit from trying to understand the reasons behind people's opinions and remember we've all been treated ****ty, been hurt, it's not unique to anyone!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

OnTheFly said:


> Temporary threadjack:
> Just noticed at the bottom of the page in the ''Recommended Reading'' section ''Who should pay on dates?'' A thread started by the very same LovelyGirl in 2017, lol
> /threadjack


Yeah, I have posted the same topic 3 years ago but didn't feel like bumping it. I wanted to see what people think in 2020 because ideas and perceptions might change. 



Broken at 20 said:


> And that's what's annoying as a guy. I've dated a couple women that made more than me, but I still had to pay for all the dates. If we're supposedly equal, why do I have to do all the paying? Because if I don't, you lose attraction.


What men don't understand is the fact that it's not about who earns more or less - *it's about the gesture*, chivalry and treating the woman with respect. 
Let me tell you, if you treat her like a "princess" and make her feel a priority, believe me, she won't care if you earn less than her. So, it's no a race - it's about making the woman feel comfortable. 
That's the idea behind the man paying on dates. 
I have dated men who earned less than me and still paid for our dates and men who* earned more than me* and *they expected to split the bill*. How crappy is the latter? They made me feel like I was a friend or their buddy, not their potential woman.



Lila said:


> Yes, the intentions would probably be beneficial to the discussion. At the very least it can show how different people perceive situations/actions differently.


Yes, that's why I said - the_* gesture *_is what counts - because it's related to the _intention. The intention of the *man to pay* and the intention of the woman to offer to pay._


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

It is nice to be pampered but not by a new date, I think it should be 50:50.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Not said:


> It’s like once the man figures out she isn’t materialistic and really does like him for him as much as he likes her for her then he begins to treat her the way all these entitled women want to be treated from the get go. So that leaves me wondering if maybe, just maybe it’s not really entitlement but maybe these women are looking for _that_, which is so hard to find.


You are right in your logic and that is true. Most of us women (me included) are looking for the right treatment and respect that some women get when the man falls head over heels in love. Obviously, it would be foolish to expect the man to fall in love right away but _respect_ is a must. Men call it entitlement, I'd say to treat the woman with dignity. 

On materialism, it's true that when men realize that the woman is not materialistic, they _might _see her differently, but still not enough to make him fall for her. 
I hear men all the time complain about how women want men only for the money and this was also one of the complaints of the last guy I dated a few months ago, though I reassured him that _I wasn't that type and I also proved it (or at least tried my best to). _

Specifically, he was not in a good financial state at the time and he also didn't own a car. He had a hard time telling me these and also had a hard time telling me where he worked. 
I told him literally "It's okay, It happens to all of us to be in an uncomfortable life-position and I'm sure you'll overcome it". I really meant these words and I was genuinely interested in him. 
But I think he took advantage of this and started taking me for granted...until he disappeared 3 months after we started dating and ghosted me. To this day, I don't know the reason why.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Another interesting situation that I was in, I was dating a guy in college, who told me that his ex gf had 3 kids. None of them were his, of course. Well, he had no money to date. But this was the 80s and I guess I had some middle class angst. *But man, it's gets so annoying he wanted to borrow my car to help out the kids that weren't his. He outright asked to borrow a 3 figure sum.* I tapered off that relationship


WTF????
I remember (again with the guy I mentioned above) given that he didn't own a car, we'd use my car whenever traveling outside the city but _*he *_would drive it. He wouldn't let me drive (my own car) thinking that other drivers would think less of him if I drove the car and not him.

There was another episode that we were talking about me buying a new car and in a jokingly (half-truth) he mentioned something along the lines that he'd like to drive my new car.
I didn't say anything but in my head, I was like "WTF???".

Now that I recall all these, it brings me to mind that he had a lot of his own insecurities. Didn't tell me where he worked, didn't reveal much about his life, didn't want materialistic women *but *wanted to use _my own stuff to appear manly, _on the other hand wanted to split bills. ..., was selfish in bed.
I mean, what the hell did I see in him????




Not said:


> want the man to see that my character isn’t all about free meals. There is so much more to me than that. I think this is what’s missing from this thread. The _intentions_ behind what we all choose to do in regards to who pays and _why_.


I don't know how are these women who are in dates for free meals. You have to be a real gold-digger to want such thing aaaand your man must be *really dumb *to fall for it.



FeministInPink said:


> Paying for the date is a very alpha thing to do. It is the man taking initiative and showing that he can take care of business, that he has a dominant nature. It is the man TAKING CONTROL and exhibiting leadership.


Exactly! It's not about how much you pay, it's he act of paying that makes the difference.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> but women still expect special treatment romantically.


...just like you expect special treatment sexually.



Lila said:


> For me, this issue is not about entitlement, it's a preference.
> I am financially independent. I can afford to feed myself. However, there is something about a man picking up the check without second thought that attracts me.
> 
> The opposite, a man who wants to split the bill or cringes at the bill, turns me off. It automatically makes me think "friend". I don't think anything negative of them but it removes the possibility of romantic partner.


Totally!
Me, @Lila and @FeministInPink are very much on the same page when it comes to_ the notions_ of the man paying on dates.
It's* not* black&white - he pays - he's romantic; if he doesn't, he's not. 
No, there's much more behind the act of paying. There's some attractiveness happening subconsciously when the man "takes control", even in these details.



RebuildingMe said:


> That’s not what you said. You said if a man doesn’t pick up the check or wants to split it, it “removes” his chances at romance. This after you saying you are financially independent.
> Your words, not mine.
> So, in other words, the only way a guy would have a shot with you is if he paid the bill. Correct?


I think it'd be_ one _of the ways, but not the only.
But this also depends on where on the list of the priorities this trait stands. Some women are not bothered that much if the man doesn't pay or splits the bill - therefore it doesn't affect their sexual attraction for the guy.
Other women though, observe this carefully because it's one of the ways to link their attraction for the guy - because such women give importance to the_* chivalrous gesture *_and such gesture is a pure turn-on.

@RebuildingMe just like you are turned off by women who feel "entitled"_*, *_women are turned on by men who are alpha enough to take control and lead the situation, even in these details.
Does it mean you're wrong? No.
Does it mean we're right? No.
But again, it's a matter of personal preference.



FeministInPink said:


> It means, I will protect you, you are safe with me, I’ve got you. You can trust me to take care of you.


Yep. Exactly. and it doesn't have to be expensive.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> And I still say it's SCARY that each person on this thread has definite ideas of how they judge their date based on if they pay, if they want to pay, if they are ok with paying their share, if they only offer to pay their share once, if they are ok with going dutch...did I miss any...??
> So I could go on a date, have the best intentions of being willing to pay my share or not, but not offer it enough times, OR offer it TOO MANY times, and be put in a bad light based on that...??? And that doesn't even include regular conversation and how I would handle sex/no sex/ some sex...??
> 
> YIKES!!!!! WHO is brave enough for all that...? Lol!!!


Well, everyone focuses on strange details. You might focus on other details that we don't. It's a fair play for everyone because preferences are different and relative. 
You might judge your date based on other things - how they talk, how they look at you .... etc. It's still fair. Some other people don't notice such things - again - still okay.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Not said:


> I get this. On the flip side I think enough men have been burned by entitled princesses that they now refuse to cater to yet another princess. And I get that too.


It really depends on how one defines "princess". 

Some of my male friends are not okay with opening the doors for their female friends or dates. 
In one of our discussions where I was cheer-leading for men opening the door for women (whether friends or dates) one of the guy-friends replied: "_Oh c'mon, you want to be treated like a princess. Good luck with that! Where will you find such man? Get over yourself_". 
He thought that opening doors means you are treated like a princess and it was too much for him. Whereas for me, it's just the normal and the basic thing that a_* well-raised man i*_s supposed to do for women in general - regardless if they are his date, sister, mother ...etc.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Okay so here is my question again. At the base of it all: in this current time, why is it the woman who gets special treatment and taken care of?
> 
> Why do women feel like they are going to get taken care of in this way?
> 
> ...


If men don't appreciate _the time_ and_ the company _of the woman they're dating, then why are they wasting their own time / money?
It's not about the woman getting special treatment, it's about _*men being chivalrous*_ - which is related to men opening doors, men paying...etc.

Do you expect women to open the doors for men?
Do you expect women to do the heavy lifting?
Do you expect women to hold the chair for men to sit?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I would like to ask the guys who complain about paying for dates this question. 
Is their an attraction level when all your “rules” are forgotten about. In other words if you meet Charlize Theron or someone similar and she agreed to go to dinner with you would you expect her to pay her share of the meal. 
I have a lot of young female employees who were friends before I bought the business and this is a common complaint, some guy who expects them to go Dutch on dates would have paid for everything for an ex who may have been considered hotter. 

I have noticed something on this thread. I was a serial dater as was @ConanHub and both of us had a high success rate. We both say that we paid for all dates and also we would be considered chivalrous in our behavior with our girlfriends/wives. 
Is this a coincidence?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> I would like to ask the guys who complain about paying for dates this question.
> Is their an attraction level when all your “rules” are forgotten about. In other words if you meet Charlize Theron or someone similar and she agreed to go to dinner with you would you expect her to pay her share of the meal.
> *I have a lot of young female employees who were friends before I bought the business and this is a common complaint, some guy who expects them to go Dutch on dates would have paid for everything for an ex who may have been considered hotter.*
> 
> ...


This is what I have experienced .... to some degree. But as old timers know, when my 2nd husband was doing it while we were dating, he kept telling me that he preferred to be me with instead of with his special friend even though he was doing for her. We got that changed.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

leftfield said:


> You would be a woman courting a man. And that is what you should feel like.
> 
> My guess is you do not ask men out that is fine.
> 
> ...


it really doesn't matter to me, it comes out of the same account


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> The girl I am currently dating is an OT at a hospital. She is very independent and has a good job like I do. We are alternating picking up checks. That is part of the reason I am so attracted to her, well beyond looks.She shares much of the same views as me. She is NOT a feminist and doesn’t seem entitled to pull out that card when it works for her.


she is not a feminist? she is independent, picking up a check, she works, she probably votes too. Hell, she is a feminist, that's all feminism is about.

You don't sound like you like women too much in general, do you?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Good luck brother. A wise women I speak to on this site once told me that most of the single women on TAM honesty hate men. Now finding out the exception is when it comes time to pick up the check. Lol


I am coming to conclusion that you are the one who hates woman. Good luck with that attitude.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Relax, I was joking. Geez.


old excuse when called on


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## Captainswan86 (Jun 23, 2020)

lovelygirl said:


> I came across these posts on IG (attached below) from an influencer who teaches about men and women in high society. She answered to some of the questions from her followers, regarding who should pay on dates.
> 
> 
> Do you agree with her? if yes, to what extent?? If no, why?
> ...


My thoughts on this the man should pay. I’m sorry but it’s been that way forever and when you change it that’s when it takes a odd turn. I’ve done this with my husband guess what I’ve paid for every date every occasion. I’m talking before we were married . I think if a man really does like you it isn’t a issue because he wants to impress you I laid out a bad foundation by doing the girl paying scenario .


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> I am coming to conclusion that you are the one who hates woman. Good luck with that attitude.


You know what Wanda, when the population on this thread is 90% women, who all seem to be in agreement that it’s their god given right to be financially taken care of by a man, how can I possibly win?? So nice of you to jump on the train also. Thanks princess.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> she is not a feminist? she is independent, picking up a check, she works, she probably votes too. Hell, she is a feminist, that's all feminism is about.
> 
> You don't sound like you like women too much in general, do you?


Even though she conducts herself this way, she still may not identify herself as "Feminist".


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Edited in order to GTFO


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

deleted at the request of the person who wanted to GTFO (don't blame you!)


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I don’t mind the differing opinions. What I mind is being called out because of my stance. It’s now happened twice, but I guess the mods with give their fellow feminists a pass...

It’s an interesting debate, but then again so is any debate that divides gender lines. I haven’t heard one guy come on here and say he EXPECTS the woman to pay the bill.

Edited at the request of who I was quoting.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

I'm a guy and I don't expect the woman to pay the bill.
As a matter of fact, on a first date, I would interpret that as that she is not interested in me, and as such, would probably drop off my radar.
Now, what I would expect, assuming all went well and we started dating, is to see her reciprocate appropriately at regular intervals. This means things like: Ask me out to dinner on occasion (and pay), cook me dinner at her place, plan a picnic, etc.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> You know what Wanda, when the population on this thread is 90% women, who all seem to be in agreement that it’s their god given right to be financially taken care of by a man, how can I possibly win?? So nice of you to jump on the train also. Thanks princess.


Goodness gracious. Where are you reading that the women who prefer men who pick up the check think it's their God given right to be financially taken care of? It's a flipping preference. Do you think a man who prefers "active" women because he associates that behavior with someone who is healthy and not lazy thinks it's his God given right to have a hot girlfriend?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> she is not a feminist? she is independent, picking up a check, she works, she probably votes too. Hell, she is a feminist, that's all feminism is about.
> 
> You don't sound like you like women too much in general, do you?


My point being, she’s not a gold digger that only uses her feminist card when it’s convenient for her. You know the type I’m talking about. Equal rights and equal pay for women, EXCEPT when dating and divorcing. Then it’s “how much can I milk from this guy”.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> I don’t mind the differing opinions. What I mind is being called out because of my stance. It’s now happened twice, but I guess the mods with give their fellow feminists a pass...
> 
> It’s an interesting debate, but then again so is any debate that divides gender lines. I haven’t heard one guy come on here and say he EXPECTS the woman to pay the bill.


Considering that it was you that threw the first jab on the "calling out", I don't think it's unfair to expect a return volley.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Even though she conducts herself this way, she still may not identify herself as "Feminist".


yeah, because some peopel made it into something what it is not. Feminism is simply equal rights for sexes.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> My point being, she’s not a gold digger that only uses her feminist card when it’s convenient for her. You know the type I’m talking about. Equal rights and equal pay for women, EXCEPT when dating and divorcing. Then it’s “how much can I milk from this guy”.


Gold diggers are the opposite of feminism. Get your definitions straight. You are really keen on making women monsters.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> You know what Wanda, when the population on this thread is 90% women, who all seem to be in agreement that it’s their god given right to be financially taken care of by a man, how can I possibly win?? So nice of you to jump on the train also. Thanks princess.


Oh believe mi, I am not a princess. I am very low maintance person, who paid for my dates with my husband when we were dating because he had no time to work while studying. I had. 
I am talking about your general attitude towards woman. Contempt, anger. Guy to avoid.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I'll help you out Rebuilding...  Lila just hit on it. Yes it is my God given right to have a hot girlfriend / wife. I have no problems and am willing to pay for dates to have one. If after a few dates they offer to pay or help I know I'm on the right track and she has interest in doing things and being with me and willing to contribute. And she damn well better make an effort to look good.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> I don’t mind the differing opinions. What I mind is being called out because of my stance. It’s now happened twice, but I guess the mods with give their fellow feminists a pass...
> 
> It’s an interesting debate, but then again so is any debate that divides gender lines. I haven’t heard one guy come on here and say he EXPECTS the woman to pay the bill.


LOL, Are you surprised by either?

I brought up the sense of entitlement with women I meet and date, and you agreed. Did you think you wouldn't be attacked for it? Because I knew I would. But I also know it's a losing battle. Nothing will ever change, I will still have to cover the meals, and it's just the way things are.

And of course no guy expects a woman to cover her expenses, let alone his.
Now I will 100% agree that if a woman insists on paying for her portion on a first date, I will assume she is not interested, and not pursue it any further. If she wants to setup a second date, I might think otherwise. This is something I hadn't considered, and given me something to think about. 

My only complaint is that the girls I have dated NEVER offered to pay well after the 1st date. But maybe that's a me thing. Maybe it's the women I am meeting, or something else.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> yeah, because some peopel made it into something what it is not. Feminism is simply equal rights for sexes.


Yes, and also, calling yourself a Feminist means you want to be perceived a certain way, as having a certain viewpoint that is important to you...some people like to label themselves as such, and others don't.
I liked when Susan Sarandon said she didn't identify as a "Feminist"...she was a "Humanist"...to me, that is more inclusive and inline with what "equal rights for sexes" means to me.

I have complete respect for anyone who disagrees and wants to be called a Feminist.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Oh believe mi, I am not a princess. I am very low maintance person, who paid for my dates with my husband when we were dating because he had no time to work while studying. I had.
> I am talking about your general attitude towards woman. Contempt, anger. Guy to avoid.


If I remember correctly, you also said your husband was studying a field that would pay much higher than you were currently paid. And you also used the word "investment" regarding paying for those dates. 

If he had been studying something else, say Classical Latin Literature, or Ancient Egyptian Bread Baking techniques, or any other field with little job opportunity and likely to not out-earn you, would you have still paid?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

@Broken at 20 What made you choose your name here?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> It’s an interesting debate, but then again so is any debate that divides gender lines. I haven’t heard one guy come on here and say he EXPECTS the woman to pay the bill.


See? Not even the guys are not able to defend the idea of expecting the woman to pay.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> If I remember correctly, you also said your husband was studying a field that would pay much higher than you were currently paid. And you also used the word "investment" regarding paying for those dates.
> 
> If he had been studying something else, say Classical Latin Literature, or Ancient Egyptian Bread Baking techniques, or any other field with little job opportunity and likely to not out-earn you, would you have still paid?


I said it with the tongue in cheek.... It would not make any difference. At that time his profession wasn't paying really that much. You are looking way too hard into it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2&out said:


> I'll help you out Rebuilding...  Lila just hit on it. Yes it is my God given right to have a hot girlfriend / wife. I have no problems and am willing to pay for dates to have one. If after a few dates they offer to pay or help I know I'm on the right track and she has interest in doing things and being with me and willing to contribute. And she damn well better make an effort to look good.


I liked your post because it's honest. You know what you want and you're willing to do what it takes to get it. And you've clearly identified what you would need to continue putting in effort. Nothing wrong with any of that


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Yes, and also, calling yourself a Feminist means you want to be perceived a certain way, as having a certain viewpoint that is important to you...some people like to label themselves as such, and others don't.
> I liked when Susan Sarandon said she didn't identify as a "Feminist"...she was a "Humanist"...to me, that is more inclusive and inline with what "equal rights for sexes" means to me.
> 
> I have complete respect for anyone who disagrees and wants to be called a Feminist.


she doesn't have to call herself femist to be one. There are men who made that word into an insult, and some women bought into it, even though they are reaping all the benefits of feminism movement: right to work, to vote, to be independent.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> If I remember correctly, you also said your husband was studying a field that would pay much higher than you were currently paid. And you also used the word "investment" regarding paying for those dates.
> 
> If he had been studying something else, say Classical Latin Literature, or Ancient Egyptian Bread Baking techniques, or any other field with little job opportunity and likely to not out-earn you, would you have still paid?


I would be also interested in your response to my other post directly to you.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

2&out said:


> I'll help you out Rebuilding...  Lila just hit on it. Yes it is my God given right to have a hot girlfriend / wife. I have no problems and am willing to pay for dates to have one. If after a few dates they offer to pay or help I know I'm on the right track and she has interest in doing things and being with me and willing to contribute. And she damn well better make an effort to look good.


I agree with 100% of what you said. For me, looks are important, but not everything. Thus the debate about finances And independence.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> @Broken at 20 What made you choose your name here?


When I came here I felt torn between a father who wanted one thing (who I have now learned is not actually my father but a man tricked into raising a child that wasn't his) and a mother who wanted something else. 

And I was 20 at the time, and it was sort of funny/cute to see several members of the forum see me as their surrogate internet child. 
I have thought about updating my name, (I turn 28 tomorrow! Such an...unimportant milestone in life) but then I;'d have to change it every year. So I just left it as is. 

And given my life, I am definitely a broken person. But this is not the thread to discuss this. 



lovelygirl said:


> See? Not even the guys are not able to defend the idea of expecting the woman to pay.


I think it's because men are raised with the expectation of paying, and women are raised expecting men to pay. Again, been this way for generations, so it's never going to change. It doesn't mean I like it, but it's the way things are. 



WandaJ said:


> I said it with the tongue in cheek.... It would not make any difference. At that time his profession wasn't paying really that much. You are looking way too hard into it.


I'm just someone that think you can read a lot about people based on what they say. I have a buddy who thinks he is all big and bad and tough, but I've picked up on little things, like his girlfriend 'letting' him come hang out with me (granted, I imagine she doesn't like her BF going to hang out with the single friend that is trying to find single ladies, so I understand her reservation) Hence why I picked up on your use of the word investment. 

But interesting to know none-the-less. 



WandaJ said:


> I would be also interested in your response to my other post directly to you.


Do you mean the one about working on myself, like counseling? I have tried it, but didn't feel like it was working and when work picked up, it was an easy casualty. 
And I have found other ways to find contentment. I get out my anger, frustration, and aggression on a football field (no, not a pro, but found a tackle league I can play), play piano to deal with other emotions, so I feel at peace. 

And if I come across as angry or bitter, I don't mean to.
I do find it annoying that girls I have dated have a sense of entitlement. And I am very bitter about the relationship (or lack there of) I have with my mother, and given I have seen the absolute worst of both sexes in very formative years (20's), then maybe I am projecting emotions from other relationships into my dating life if enough people think so. And I also tend to expect the worst from people, so that's probably not the healthiest outlook to have (but I would argue it is a safer outlook to have)


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> she doesn't have to call herself femist to be one. There are men who made that word into an insult, and some women bought into it, even though they are reaping all the benefits of feminism movement: right to work, to vote, to be independent.


Are you saying that is why I agree with her...? Because I bought into "the insult" made by men...?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> when the population on this thread is 90% women, who all seem to be in agreement that it’s their god given right to be financially taken care of by a man, how can I possibly win??


You must've missed my post, then. Please don't color us with the same brush.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> And if I come across as angry or bitter, I don't mean to.
> I do find it annoying that girls I have dated have a sense of entitlement. And I am very bitter about the relationship (or lack there of) I have with my mother, and given I have seen the absolute worst of both sexes in very formative years (20's), then maybe I am projecting emotions from other relationships into my dating life if enough people think so. And I also tend to expect the worst from people, so that's probably not the healthiest outlook to have (but I would argue it is a safer outlook have)


I think your past dictates to what kind of girls you are attracted, and therefore, asking for dates. You probably picking girls who are as emotionally unavailable as your mother was. Entitled princesses would fall into this category. that;s just my armchair psychology. We all do that, repeat the patterns from our most formative years. I have my share to figure out, how to avoid the mistakes in the future.
I think unitl you figure it all out, you will be chasing the wrong type of women. And become even more disappointed.

so you know - I am divorcing my husband. Money will be tighter, but I will be freer and happier. But I am not projecting what went wrong with us, into all men. Generalizations will get you nowhere, just into more bitternes. It will become self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Are you saying that is why I agree with her...? Because I bought into "the insult" made by men...?


are you saying this was not made into insult? that's the only reason you are running away from that term, which is simply factual.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> are you saying this was not made into insult? that's the only reason you are running away from that term, which is simply factual.


Please answer my question...is that what you are saying...that my opinion isn't allowed to be defined by me, only you?

I don't consider myself "running away" from anything, and my view of how I see and want equality between the sexes has nothing to do with men...it has to do with ME and MY way of seeing things. I don't give "men" any more power over my opinions and my sense of what things mean to me than I do anything else in my life.

I certainly want RESPECT for my path and my views, whether they intersect with another person's or not, just like I have for theirs.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> I think your past dictates to what kind of girls you are attracted, and therefore, asking for dates. You probably picking girls who are as emotionally unavailable as your mother was. Entitled princesses would fall into this category. that;s just my armchair psychology. We all do that, repeat the patterns from our most formative years. I have my share to figure out, how to avoid the mistakes in the future.
> I think unitl you figure it all out, you will be chasing the wrong type of women. And become even more disappointed.
> 
> so you know - I am divorcing my husband. Money will be tighter, but I will be freer and happier. But I am not projecting what went wrong with us, into all men. Generalizations will get you nowhere, just into more bitternes. It will become self-fulfilling prophecy.


Lol, I don't pick girls based on their emotional availability, I pick first based on looks, then on personality. Yeah, I'm shallow. But unlike Netflix, I don't believe Love is Blind (if they had stocked that show with say, some morbidly obese people, I think the endings would have all been very different)
Maybe this causes me to pick entitled princesses. And the stereotypical girls that think "You should pay for everything all the time because I'm the woman and you're the man." Something I need to recognize and fix in myself. Or maybe it's just a plurality of women my age that I date. Who knows. 

Additionally, this thread has given me things to think about.
If a girl offered to pay on any of the first 3 dates, I'd assume she's just not interested in me, and be grateful that she at least covered her expenses instead of squeezing a meal or drinks out of me. Unless after said date, she was really intent on setting up a followup date.
And these discussions are making me think about other things. I would love if a girl ever offered to cook for me, but only one ever has. I've brought up my cooking abilities when dating, but I also use those cooking skills to try and offer to cook to keep dating costs down, and get a date back to my place. So maybe it's a matter of shooting myself in the foot (and I assume any girl can see the intentions a mile away if I offer to cook). Or maybe, like the old adage men are afraid of dating a powerful woman, maybe the girls I've dated are afraid to cook for a guy that can cook better than them?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

So now after reading all of this I'm convinced that men pay for dates if he thinks the woman is very attractive and he really really wants a chance with her, not so much if he didn't think she is quite so hot.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Lol, I don't pick girls based on their emotional availability, I pick first based on looks, then on personality.


And you are complaining about girls being entitled? lol....

Figure out what you want, and then you'll make better choices. But for now you are avoiding it, so that's how it will continue. Decision is yours to make....


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

@Broken at 20 I am really happy this thread is making you re-think things. I've always thought you are a highly intelligent and insightful young man. And I know you've had a hard knock life and you're really cynical and jaded. I would be,too. 

I don't think the entitled princesses you date are afraid to cook for you--I think they don't know how to or don't care to. Those types of women don't "do"--they have things done for them.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> And you are complaining about girls being entitled? lol....
> 
> Figure out what you want, and then you'll make better choices. But for now you are avoiding it, so that's how it will continue. Decision is yours to make....


THIS^^^^

If you choose women using shallow, superficial criteria... you will get shallow, superficial women.

I'm not saying that every beautiful women is superficial and shallow, but a lot of beautiful women never had to develop a personality because they've been able to get by on just their looks. The women who are beautiful AND have a good personality (and who aren't shallow/superficial) have higher standards when it comes to men, too.

If you want quality, you need to up your game.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Yep. You want high quality woman, be a man that high quality woman wants. 

That goes the other way too: you want high quality man, be a high quality woman.

And each of us has to decide, what "high quality" means to us


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> And you are complaining about girls being entitled? lol....
> 
> Figure out what you want, and then you'll make better choices. But for now you are avoiding it, so that's how it will continue. Decision is yours to make....


Lol, when did I ever pretend to be anything else? I'm honest enough to say it.

If the thread had been different, say why do guys feel entitled to sex after buying dinner and drinks, we'd be having a very different conversation. And then all of TAM would be arguing the point and semantics of at what point does a date become nothing more than an a dinner escort. But that's not what the original post of the thread was.

And if you wanted to call me a pig for expecting sex after financing several dates, I'd wholly agree with you. (Don't you love my honesty?) Otherwise, why else do you think I'm paying for your food, alcohol, and entertainment? Is sex the only reason? No. But it's definitely a main reason.



lucy999 said:


> @Broken at 20 I am really happy this thread is making you re-think things. I've always thought you are a highly intelligent and insightful young man. And I know you've had a hard knock life and you're really cynical and jaded. I would be,too.
> 
> *I don't think the entitled princesses you date are afraid to cook for you--I think they don't know how to or don't care to. Those types of women don't "do"--they have things done for them.*


Are you surprised I'm cynical?
Bolded part is something I hadn't considered. Which could also be true.



WandaJ said:


> Yep. You want high quality woman, be a man that high quality woman wants.
> 
> That goes the other way too: you want high quality man, be a high quality woman.
> 
> And each of us has to decide, what "high quality" means to us


If I was a high-quality woman, I wouldn't touch me with a 10-foot pole. But I don't broadcast my laundry list of problems when dating, I try to hide that crap because anyone who knew my problems would probably steer clear. And I don't blame them, because if I met the female equivalent of myself, I would label "Way too much baggage" and stay away. 

And maybe that's me self-sabotaging. Maybe that's me not knowing what a high-quality woman looks like, or knowing what to look for. Maybe it's my cynical attitude making it difficult to truly believe someone genuinely cares versus me thinking they're faking empathy to get another date. And a lot of it probably stems from life problems that I have difficultly letting go of. 
All questions for a different thread.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> If I was a high-quality woman, I wouldn't touch me with a 10-foot pole. But I don't broadcast my laundry list of problems when dating, I try to hide that crap because anyone who knew my problems would probably steer clear. And I don't blame them, because if I met the female equivalent of myself, I would label "Way too much baggage" and stay away.
> 
> And maybe that's me self-sabotaging. Maybe that's me not knowing what a high-quality woman looks like, or knowing what to look for. Maybe it's my cynical attitude making it difficult to truly believe someone genuinely cares versus me thinking they're faking empathy to get another date. And a lot of it probably stems from life problems that I have difficultly letting go of.
> All questions for a different thread.


Again - that's how it is going to be, unless you do something about it. you'd rather complain about women through your whole life, be my guest. But is this the life you want?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> I said it with the tongue in cheek.... It would not make any difference. At that time his profession wasn't paying really that much. You are looking way too hard into it.


Nice job walking back your comment BTW


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> You must've missed my post, then. Please don't color us with the same brush.


Not you at all. I said 90%, which leaves you and Lisa Diane as the only exceptions


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Again - that's how it is going to be, unless you do something about it. you'd rather complain about women through your whole life, be my guest. But is this the life you want?


You say I'm complaining, I say pointing about an entitlement attitude. Chicken-egg argument. 

Given that I doubt the posters will come to an agreement, let me ask the female posters something. At what point do/have you offered to pay for the drinks, dinner, entertainment, split the bill, etc. ? The second date? The third date? After a few months? Never because he should always pay because he's the man and it's romantic that way? I'm curious if maybe I never reached that expected timeline, or if it ever happens.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

@Broken at 20 no. I'm not surprised you're cynical. I said that I would be, too.

It's too bad you don't use your powers for good. You've got alot of good in you--razor sharp wit, you're clever and astute. It's unfortunate you're choosing the bar low for yourself. There's plenty of hot women who would challenge you intellectually. Hot, vacuous, high maintenance women would get old real quick, I would think.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Well, I think it's about that time to watch the "Red Pill" on Amazon Prime. I suggested it to my "friend", you know her, the one that also pays her way, anyway, she was very emotional after watching it and had NO IDEA how men are taken advantage of by feminists in our society.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> You say I'm complaining, I say pointing about an entitlement attitude. Chicken-egg argument.
> 
> Given that I doubt the posters will come to an agreement, let me ask the female posters something. At what point do/have you offered to pay for the drinks, dinner, entertainment, split the bill, etc. ? The second date? The third date? After a few months? Never because he should always pay because he's the man and it's romantic that way? I'm curious if maybe I never reached that expected timeline, or if it ever happens.


Well, I've always split the bill for everything in every relationship I've had (I'm 50ish). Until marriage, and in one long term relationship, years into it he started paying more for dinner out because he made more than twice what I did and I had budget constraints re how often I could afford to pay to eat out.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, I think it's about that time to watch the "Red Pill" on Amazon Prime. I suggested it to my "friend", you know her, the one that also pays her way, anyway, she was very emotional after watching it and had NO IDEA how men are taken advantage of by feminists in our society.


Expect a wave.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Livvie said:


> So now after reading all of this I'm convinced that men pay for dates if he thinks the woman is very attractive and he really really wants a chance with her, not so much if he didn't think she is quite so hot.


Each man is different. When I was dating, I would imediately wright off any woman I thought was particulary hot. They are nice to look at but far to much trouble to deal with.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Livvie said:


> So now after reading all of this I'm convinced that men pay for dates if he thinks the woman is very attractive and he really really wants a chance with her, not so much if he didn't think she is quite so hot.


I think so too. Or he’ll pay if he’s looking to get laid. So he’s either really serious about her or just horny. Lucky girls get to try to figure out which one it is lol!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

OnTheFly said:


> Expect a wave.


Why, because we are all narcissists? Feminists love that word also...LOL


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

lucy999 said:


> @Broken at 20 no. I'm not surprised you're cynical. I said that I would be, too.
> 
> It's too bad you don't use your powers for good. You've got alot of good in you--razor sharp wit, you're clever and astute. It's unfortunate you're choosing the bar low for yourself. There's plenty of hot women who would challenge you intellectually. Hot, vacuous, high maintenance women would get old real quick, I would think.


LOL, powers?! I already said I'm not looking to change society, I merely live in it. And I've said before, I am not a good person. 
And I don't know what you mean by challenge, but I don't want to be challenged in my relationship. I expect the occasional fight and whatever else, but I don't want to be challenged. I am challenged physically in my hobbies, and mentally at my work. I don't need another challenge in my life. I want an refuge. 

And you'd be right. High-maintenance women (both hot and average) grind on me very quickly. 



RebuildingMe said:


> Why, because we are all narcissists? Feminists love that word also...LOL


Because people immediately see red-pill and associate it with incels, woman-haters, and any other number of unsavory labels. 
Just like some people see feminists and associate it with man-hating lesbians, feminazi's, etc.,


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

RebuildingMe said:


> Why.....?


BrokenAt20 summed it up.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Given that I doubt the posters will come to an agreement, let me ask the female posters something. At what point do/have you offered to pay for the drinks, dinner, entertainment, split the bill, etc. ? The second date? The third date? After a few months? Never because he should always pay because he's the man and it's romantic that way? I'm curious if maybe I never reached that expected timeline, or if it ever happens.


Dutch when I was heavily dating for a year before I met my husband. To be fair, I'm a lot older than you--52. At the time I was in my early 40s. Totally different generation. Sometimes my date would pay and then I would pay. Just depended. If it was something I suggested, I paid. On the first date though, I always offered to go dutch. Doesn't mean it always ended up that way. I wouldn't put up a fuss if he insisted on paying.

In all of my dating life, I have never expected a man to pay for the lion's share of dates. I think it's because I've never depended on a man and I've always earned my own money and had my own job. And I wanted to show them I wasn't in it for a free meal. Because that's the assumption many men have and I wanted to be quick to dispel that notion. And I'm SO not a romantic.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> LOL, powers?! I already said I'm not looking to change society, I merely live in it. And I've said before, I am not a good person.
> And I don't know what you mean by challenge, but I don't want to be challenged in my relationship. I expect the occasional fight and whatever else, but I don't want to be challenged. I am challenged physically in my hobbies, and mentally at my work. I don't need another challenge in my life. I want an refuge.
> 
> And you'd be right. High-maintenance women (both hot and average) grind on me very quickly.
> ...


I don't like how you keep putting yourself down - not a good person, broken, emotionally empty, etc - because it sounds like a cop-out...I don't believe ANY of that about you, from only your few posts on this thread!!
Maybe you are using it as an excuse to defend certain views that you hold, and certain ways that you protect yourself, but you aren't being REAL about yourself when you say those things...

I'm NOT saying you need to change anything about yourself or how you want to portray yourself, but maybe it would be good for you to find another, more authentic way of describing your emotional self, at least TO YOURSELF...because without emotional HONESTY and understanding, you will never have a sense of peace.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> LOL, powers?! I already said I'm not looking to change society, I merely live in it. And I've said before, I am not a good person.
> And I don't know what you mean by challenge, but I don't want to be challenged in my relationship. I expect the occasional fight and whatever else, but I don't want to be challenged. I am challenged physically in my hobbies, and mentally at my work. I don't need another challenge in my life. I want an refuge.
> 
> And you'd be right. High-maintenance women (both hot and average) grind on me very quickly.
> ...


Well, I think a lot of women on this thread should be planning on being single the rest of their lives. They will take their beliefs to their graves. Open minded, not so much. 

It's funny. What I have learned here is if a man pays, he wants sex. If a woman pays, sex is off the table. So I guess the man needs to ask himself if the woman is worth the price of admission. Multiply that by about 5-10 admissions, cause no one here appears to be putting out after one date. A prostitute is about $100. No work involved. So you do the math on what's wrong with today's society.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> You say I'm complaining, I say pointing about an entitlement attitude. Chicken-egg argument.
> 
> Given that I doubt the posters will come to an agreement, let me ask the female posters something. At what point do/have you offered to pay for the drinks, dinner, entertainment, split the bill, etc. ? The second date? The third date? After a few months? Never because he should always pay because he's the man and it's romantic that way? I'm curious if maybe I never reached that expected timeline, or if it ever happens.


I would offer splitting the bill from the beginning.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, I think it's about that time to watch the "Red Pill" on Amazon Prime. I suggested it to my "friend", you know her, the one that also pays her way, anyway, she was very emotional after watching it and had NO IDEA how men are taken advantage of by feminists in our society.


I think you need to change your name to "Mr. Provocative"...!!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

hmm, Rebuildingme said that TAM is full of women hating men.

I have to say by his and few other men comments, we have a nice share of men hating women. Blaming them for all their life disappointments. ..


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> LOL, powers?! I already said I'm not looking to change society, I merely live in it. And I've said before, I am not a good person.
> And I don't know what you mean by challenge, but I don't want to be challenged in my relationship. I expect the occasional fight and whatever else, but I don't want to be challenged. I am challenged physically in my hobbies, and mentally at my work. I don't need another challenge in my life. I want an refuge.
> 
> And you'd be right. High-maintenance women (both hot and average) grind on me very quickly.


You've never heard the phrase,"Use your powers for good"? It's tongue-in-cheek. I didn't mean it literally.

By challenged,I mean intellectually. My husband challenges me and stimulates me merely by having a conversation with him. He's really into stats, stock market and numbers (he was a bookie in another life lol). He also loves politics, all of which I feel really dumb about. Hate numbers and politics. I work in the legal field--something he knows nothing about. We have very titillating conversations and we challenge eachother on our opinions and it's stimulating to both of us. I don't mean fighting. No. Lord knows I've had a belly full of that in my lifetime. Maybe I should've said stimulated instead.

Do you not want to be a good person? If you don't, you won't attract a good person.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I think you need to change your name to "Mr. Provocative"...!!


I have "rebuilt" myself from a doormat into a man who stands up to BS that I smell....and my BS meter is off the charts on this thread.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

What’s fascinating is that one man will get offended if he’s expected to pay and another man will get offended if she tries to pay and even sees it that she’s not interested. I got a huge compliment from my BF’s best friend two weekends ago when I grabbed our check. He thought it was the coolest thing ever lol! Someone else may have been shocked by it and saw me in a negative light. Sooooo....I’m going to stick with what makes me feel good and just roll with that.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, I think a lot of women on this thread should be planning on being single the rest of their lives. They will take their beliefs to their graves. Open minded, not so much.
> 
> It's funny. What I have learned here is if a man pays, he wants sex. If a woman pays, sex is off the table. So I guess the man needs to ask himself if the woman is worth the price of admission. Multiply that by about 5-10 admissions, cause no one here appears to be putting out after one date. A prostitute is about $100. No work involved. So you do the math on what's wrong with today's society.


You know what's really weird? The women who have posted on this thread that they prefer the men to pay for dates haven't said a single bad thing about the men who prefer to go Dutch. But you seem to have taken their preferences personally. You're assuming they'll never find another partner because their preferences don't align with you. Why are you so personally affected about the preferences of others? 

You seem to be getting sex without having to pay for dates so what's with the comment "I have learned here is if a man pays, he wants sex. If a woman pays, sex is off the tableIt really shouldn't matter to you one way or the other."? 

You can continue to date women who like to go Dutch and pass on the women who don't. I really don't understand all of the hate.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Not said:


> What’s fascinating is that one man will get offended if he’s expected to pay and another man will get offended if she tries to pay and even sees it that she’s not interested. I got a huge compliment from my BF’s best friend two weekends ago when I grabbed our check. He thought it was the coolest thing ever lol! Someone else may have been shocked by it and saw me in a negative light. Sooooo....I’m going to stick with what makes me feel good and just roll with that.


THIS!!!!!!!
THIS is my bottom line...HOW does anyone know what to do...?? UGH...Lol!!


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> hmm, Rebuildingme said that TAM is full of women hating men.
> 
> I have to say by his and few other men comments, we have a nice share of men hating women. Blaming them for all their life disappointments. ..


I TAKE OFFENSE


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

You know what, I'll bow out. I've stated my views. After a while, a 10 on 1 fight is just not fair. I don't hate women (well, just two). I just won't date the ones that are looking or feel they are entitled to a free ride.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> You know what, I'll bow out. I've stated my views. After a while, a 10 on 1 fight is just not fair. I don't hate women (well, just two). I just won't date the ones that are looking or feel they are entitled to a free ride.


@RebuildingMe the only one "fighting" is you. Most of the rest of us are having a conversation. We don't have to agree but the discussion has to remain cordial.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Lila said:


> You know what's really weird? The women who have posted on this thread that they prefer the men to pay for dates haven't said a single bad thing about the men who prefer to go Dutch. But you seem to have taken their preferences personally. You're assuming they'll never find another partner because their preferences don't align with you. Why are you so personally affected about the preferences of others?
> 
> You seem to be getting sex without having to pay for dates so what's with the comment "I have learned here is if a man pays, he wants sex. If a woman pays, sex is off the tableIt really shouldn't matter to you one way or the other."?
> 
> You can continue to date women who like to go Dutch and pass on the women who don't. I really don't understand all of the hate.


Well, isn't the idea to debate? I'm certainly not debating the people I meet in real life. I just pass. I'm not complaining. Sure, I don't agree with the viewpoints of many on this thread, yours included. Just because I am getting along in real life means I can't state my viewpoints on TAM? Isn't that censorship? Either way, I am now gone from this thread. So it's just you are the rest of the bunch. lol


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, isn't the idea to debate? I'm certainly not debating the people I meet in real life. I just pass. I'm not complaining. Sure, I don't agree with the viewpoints of many on this thread, yours included. Just because I am getting along in real life means I can't state my viewpoints on TAM? Isn't that censorship? Either way, I am now gone from this thread. So it's just you are the rest of the bunch. lol


No this was not a debate. That's what politics section is for. This was a discussion on what we prefer and why. You can of course state your preferences and your claims to successful dating. The problem is that your opinions are starting to come of as argumentative and sniping. That's what turns a conversation discussing different ideas into personal attacks. But you've decided to walk away from discussing the topic because it differs from yours. So be it.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> THIS!!!!!!!
> THIS is my bottom line...HOW does anyone know what to do...?? UGH...Lol!!


You just be yourself. Corny, but oh so true.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, isn't the idea to debate? I'm certainly not debating the people I meet in real life. I just pass. I'm not complaining. Sure, I don't agree with the viewpoints of many on this thread, yours included. Just because I am getting along in real life means I can't state my viewpoints on TAM? Isn't that censorship? Either way, I am now gone from this thread. So it's just you are the rest of the bunch. lol


It doesn't help when you call someone princess. Surely you know that? Your "debating" style isn't above reproach. Come on. Surely you can see that. Right?


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Well, I would argue with RebuildingMe that he wasn't banned by the SuperModerator (the heck is that by the way? like, Moderator wasn't enough, we need SUPER moderators!) so it's not much like censorship on this site. Other mediums might be a convo, but not what the thread was started for. So...

To the ladies that did answer my original question about when/if you start paying, many of you admitted to being older than me (which might explain some of my experiences) And I imagine one's approach to dating changes as one gets older, in your 30's, and 40's, and 50's. (Maybe I should go cougar hunting...)
But when you were in your 20's, does the answer change? Did you go dutch as often, or just let the guy pay? And yes, I know there will be a generational block here.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

One of my favorite dating stories. 😊

When I was in college, I was one of those students who always went to class and took great notes.

One of the party guys who rarely showed up asked for my notebook, (I think it was to study for the final), and I told him it would be $$$. 

So, he paid me, and I took my then boyfriend/future husband/now ex-husband out to a super nice dinner. 

We told this story for years.



Broken at 20 said:


> But when you were in your 20's, does the answer change? Did you go dutch as often, or just let the guy pay? And yes, I know there will be a generational block here.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Well here's an issue that I personally have. Maybe someone here can help with advice or perspective. As someone who has always paid my own way in the first years of dating a man, I do have an emotional issue to contend with. 

While being with men who did NOT pay for me on dates over the course of me life and different relationships, of course I was aware that a lot of women DID get treated to dates. And yes, in my head I have had moments of feeling like: why isn't that happening for me (at least the offer of it) and feelings of being left out of that whole scenario (the offer of being treated, at least). 

In future dating, I can see the potential of suffering from feelings of "you did it for her why aren't you doing it for me" if I'm again in a long term dating situation in which I'm-- as per usual-- always paying my own way and I learn the man treated other dating partners in the past differently.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

People are different which is what makes life interesting. What I have found is some women want to pay / contribute as a statement of "your not buying me" but that does not mean that sex in the future was off the table. I always assume sex IS on the table until it becomes clear it is not and then obviously the date is over. I never ask or assume - just deal with whatever situation arises. I''ll also throw in my opinion about the beautiful women comments/assumptions. There is truth in "I'm not just another pretty face" and the majority of women I have had the pleasure to have known want to prove that.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lucy999 said:


> It doesn't help when you call someone princess. Surely you know that? Your "debating" style isn't above reproach. Come on. Surely you can see that. Right?


If he could see that, you wouldn't have needed to make this comment...

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Well here's an issue that I personally have. Maybe someone here can help with advice or perspective. As someone who has always paid my own way in the first years of dating a man, I do have an emotional issue to contend with.
> 
> While being with men who did NOT pay for me on dates over the course of me life and different relationships, of course I was aware that a lot of women DID get treated to dates. And yes, in my head I have had moments of feeling like: why isn't that happening for me (at least the offer of it) and feelings of being left out of that whole scenario (the offer of being treated, at least).
> 
> In future dating, I can see the potential of suffering from feelings of "you did it for her why aren't you doing it for me" if I'm again in a long term dating situation in which I'm-- as per usual-- always paying my own way and I learn the man treated other dating partners in the past differently.


Because you set the tone early on by paying your own way. If you think that will bother you down the line, don't do that. I think someone else mentioned that here on this thread. And I agree with that.

It didn't bother me because my love language is acts of service. They would do other things for me and I would think they hung the moon.


Broken at 20 said:


> But when you were in your 20's, does the answer change? Did you go dutch as often, or just let the guy pay? And yes, I know there will be a generational block here.


I didn't date much in my tender years. Frankly, I was too busy partying in gay clubs. (I'm straight--alot of my friends were gay so you could see how the environment wasn't conducive for dating). Some ONS were involved but not alot of "dates" per se. Sorry, I don't really have an answer for you on that one.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

2&out said:


> I''ll also throw in my opinion about the beautiful women comments/assumptions. There is truth in "I'm not just another pretty face" and the majority of women I have had the pleasure to have known want to prove that.


What do you mean by this? I don't understand.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Well here's an issue that I personally have. Maybe someone here can help with advice or perspective. As someone who has always paid my own way in the first years of dating a man, I do have an emotional issue to contend with.
> 
> While being with men who did NOT pay for me on dates over the course of me life and different relationships, of course I was aware that a lot of women DID get treated to dates. And yes, in my head I have had moments of feeling like: why isn't that happening for me (at least the offer of it) and feelings of being left out of that whole scenario (the offer of being treated, at least).
> 
> In future dating, I can see the potential of suffering from feelings of "you did it for her why aren't you doing it for me" if I'm again in a long term dating situation in which I'm-- as per usual-- always paying my own way and I learn the man treated other dating partners in the past differently.


The reason he (generic "he") treated other women in the past, and not you is because we teach people how to treat us, and you shouldn't tolerate less than what you deserve.

But you have to do it early. Someone earlier made a comment about her now husband not paying (going dutch) on the first date, and when he asked her out again, she said no and explained why. He apologized and asked for a second chance and second time, he paid.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> Because you set the tone early on by paying your own way. If you think that will bother you down the line, don't do that. I think someone else mentioned that here on this thread. And I agree with that.


^^This.

From experience, I know that it would bother me down the line and it's unfair to the other person to accept behavior that bothers me only to feel resentment about it later.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I mean that because a women may have been blessed with exceptional looks (which of course is in the eye of the beholder) it does not directly mean they are especially high maintenance or have a "I'm so special" princess attitude and expect to be catered to. I think most all people (in my experience) want to be respected and known for more than just their looks.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> The reason he (generic "he") treated other women in the past, and not you is because we teach people how to treat us, and you shouldn't tolerate less than what you deserve.
> 
> But you have to do it early. Someone earlier made a comment about her now husband not paying (going dutch) on the first date, and when he asked her out again, she said no and explained why. He apologized and asked for a second chance and second time, he paid.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Yes, that's what I have been thinking. I need to sort this out and decide how to handle it before I go on a new date. I don't need a man to always pay my way, but maybe one who has the desire to sometimes, if you know what I mean.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I thought I read a couple references to such


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lila said:


> ^^This.
> 
> From experience, I know that it would bother me down the line and it's unfair to the other person to accept behavior that bothers me only to feel resentment about it later.


BRILLIANT!!!!!


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Livvie said:


> While being with men who did NOT pay for me on dates over the course of me life and different relationships, of course I was aware that a lot of women DID get treated to dates. And yes, in my head I have had moments of feeling like: why isn't that happening for me (at least the offer of it) and feelings of being left out of that whole scenario (the offer of being treated, at least).
> 
> In future dating, I can see the potential of suffering from feelings of "you did it for her why aren't you doing it for me" if I'm again in a long term dating situation in which I'm-- as per usual-- always paying my own way and I learn the man treated other dating partners in the past differently.


I definitely see how that breeds resentment in a relationship, and likely kills it. Questioning why someone else deserved better treatment than what you receive, and feeling like you're coming in at best, second place in your relationship.

And I would say the male equivalent is if a girl I'm dating wants me to wait 10 dates before going to bed, but with other guys she barely waited, that would breed some resentment in me (let the calling me a pig commence!)

If you're asking for advice, I would suggest letting the guy pay for the first few dates to maybe see if he's interested, then offer to go dutch, buy some drinks at happy hour, etc., Granted, I can't remember your age but I imagine there might be a generational gap in here somewhere.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> Because you set the tone early on by paying your own way. If you think that will bother you down the line, don't do that. I think someone else mentioned that here on this thread. And I agree with that.
> 
> It didn't bother me because my love language is acts of service. They would do other things for me and I would think they hung the moon.
> 
> I didn't date much in my tender years. *Frankly, I was too busy partying in gay clubs. (I'm straight--alot of my friends were gay so you could see how the environment wasn't conducive for dating). *Some ONS were involved but not alot of "dates" per se. Sorry, I don't really have an answer for you on that one.


THIS sounds AWESOME!!!! What FUN!!!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Yes, that's what I have been thinking. I need to sort this out and decide how to handle it before I go on a new date. I don't need a man to always pay my way, but maybe one who has the desire to sometimes, if you know what I mean.


I absolutely get what you mean!

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> You just be yourself. Corny, but oh so true.


So you mean, dancing in the rain barefoot with no makeup on...and hopefully I remembered to shave my legs...?? Lol!!!


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Well here's an issue that I personally have. Maybe someone here can help with advice or perspective. As someone who has always paid my own way in the first years of dating a man, I do have an emotional issue to contend with.
> 
> While being with men who did NOT pay for me on dates over the course of me life and different relationships, of course I was aware that a lot of women DID get treated to dates. And yes, in my head I have had moments of feeling like: why isn't that happening for me (at least the offer of it) and feelings of being left out of that whole scenario (the offer of being treated, at least).
> 
> In future dating, I can see the potential of suffering from feelings of "you did it for her why aren't you doing it for me" if I'm again in a long term dating situation in which I'm-- as per usual-- always paying my own way and I learn the man treated other dating partners in the past differently.


I think it’s a two way street type of issue. I agree that you set the tone yourself but the type of person he is also plays a role. A “good” guy wouldn’t do something like that indefinitely. To me it shows a lack of respect on his part.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> So you mean, dancing in the rain barefoot with no makeup on...and hopefully I remembered to shave my legs...?? Lol!!!


As long as you wear a mask and exercise proper social distancing.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> As long as you wear a mask and exercise proper social distancing.


Lolol!!!!!
Oh come on...STILL?? Pffftttt!!!!!!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> I definitely see how that breeds resentment in a relationship, and likely kills it. Questioning why someone else deserved better treatment than what you receive, and feeling like you're coming in at best, second place in your relationship.
> 
> And I would say the male equivalent is if a girl I'm dating wants me to wait 10 dates before going to bed, but with other guys she barely waited, that would breed some resentment in me (let the calling me a pig commence!)
> 
> If you're asking for advice, I would suggest letting the guy pay for the first few dates to maybe see if he's interested, then offer to go dutch, buy some drinks at happy hour, etc., Granted, I can't remember your age but I imagine there might be a generational gap in here somewhere.


If a girl wants to wait, that's her prerogative, and you don't get to judge her for that.

And if she wants to wait with you, but she hasn't waited with other people, it's probably because she sees you as someone with long-term potential and wants to build a real connection with you. And women know what men think of us if we have sex with you on the first date. A lot of guys will say, "No, I'll still respect her, and if I like her, I'll go out with her again." That's what most guys _say_, but 9/10 think a girl is trash if she sleeps with a guy on the first date.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Broken at 20 said:


> But when you were in your 20's, does the answer change? Did you go dutch as often, or just let the guy pay? And yes, I know there will be a generational block here.


I honestly never put an ounce of thought into in my 20’s and just assumed it was always the guy who paid. Society taught me that.

After I began online dating at 46 and saw how effed up it is with catfishing, multi-dating, ghosting, outright lying and how so many people (men mostly) get used I refused to be a part of the “machine” and did things my way which I would label as the kind and respectful way.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> I definitely see how that breeds resentment in a relationship, and likely kills it. Questioning why someone else deserved better treatment than what you receive, and feeling like you're coming in at best, second place in your relationship.
> 
> And I would say the male equivalent is if a girl I'm dating wants me to wait 10 dates before going to bed, but with other guys she barely waited, that would breed some resentment in me (let the calling me a pig commence!)
> 
> If you're asking for advice, I would suggest letting the guy pay for the first few dates to maybe see if he's interested, then offer to go dutch, buy some drinks at happy hour, etc., Granted, I can't remember your age but I imagine there might be a generational gap in here somewhere.


Yes there is an age gap, I'm 50ish. As far as "letting" the guy pay the first couple of dates, he has to offer in the first place in order for me to even let him!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Not you at all. I said 90%, which leaves you and Lisa Diane as the only exceptions


Then you obviously didn’t read all the posts. I’m as far from supporting the idea of a man “taking care of” a woman by paying for every date as it’s possible to get. This isn’t still the 1960’s after all. However, people do what people want to do and that’s their right.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> If a girl wants to wait, that's her prerogative, and you don't get to judge her for that.
> 
> And if she wants to wait with you, but she hasn't waited with other people, it's probably because she sees you as someone with long-term potential and wants to build a real connection with you. And women know what men think of us if we have sex with you on the first date. A lot of guys will say, "No, I'll still respect her, and if I like her, I'll go out with her again." That's what most guys _say_, but 9/10 think a girl is trash if she sleeps with a guy on the first date.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


There is so much messed up with this whole line of thinking. (Not directed at FIP)


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, I think a lot of women on this thread should be planning on being single the rest of their lives. They will take their beliefs to their graves.


Why??? Because you don't agree with our beliefs?
Don't worry. Thankfully not all men are like you so we'll be taken by those who do agree with us and "pamper" us just like we want to.👫
(Now you'll get caught up in the word "_pamper_". I know...)


In most of your posts I have sensed a general negativity and spitefulness againts the female gender.
I don't think you might've been successful in dating and maybe haven't dated much because you were not able to catch the type of woman you wanted (for reasons that you know).
So there is some sort of insecurity underneath your personality and if feels like you compromised and settled for less.
And because of this, those women who don't agree with you are automatically "worthless" and shall remain single. 😂

I mean it's so funny. Your vibe screams "insecure".


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

RebuildingMe said:


> I have "rebuilt" myself from a doormat


Aaaaaaaa nooooow I have a clearer picture.
Exactly what I said above and this totally verifies it. I swear I didn't read this when posted the above comment on your past so this quoted sentence explains your attitude filled with negativity.

You carry the baggage of your past in how you want to treat women today.

I knew it! I knew something was off with you.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Not said:


> got a huge compliment from my BF’s best friend two weekends ago when I grabbed our check


Well, I've also paid bills for male coworkers or male friends or even dates. I do it from time to time but not most times.

ETA:
So I don't think any of us women here opposes paying for men from time to time, just *not* most of the time or deciding to take turns all the time or going dutch all the time.
But I'm sure all of us have paid for our men/male friends and still do.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> THIS sounds AWESOME!!!! What FUN!!!


Some of the funnest times in my life.🙂


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> If a girl wants to wait, that's her prerogative, and you don't get to judge her for that.
> 
> And if she wants to wait with you, but she hasn't waited with other people, *it's probably because she sees you as someone with long-term potential and wants to build a real connection with you*. And women know what men think of us if we have sex with you on the first date. A lot of guys will say, "No, I'll still respect her, and if I like her, I'll go out with her again." That's what most guys _say_, but *9/10 think a girl is trash if she sleeps with a guy on the first date*.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


Well, unless the US begins employing thought and political correctness police (which given the current political climate, wouldn't surprise me at this point) I do get to judge her for it. But the only judgment my weight holds is whether to ask her out or not, and little else. 

And that's the argument I always hear to try and justify this thinking, and I call BS on it. Do you really think it makes the guy feel special that you made him wait longer than someone else in your past? It doesn't make me feel special, it makes me think "Huh, you must've not been super attracted to me, because the guys you were attracted to, you didn't play this game with." 
Which is why I equated it to a female having to pay for every date when the guy covered the dates for someone else in the past. Why did they deserve special treatment when you don't? 
And no, I don't expect it on the first date. I give 3, after that I stop trying. I'm not trying to build attraction, it's either there or it isn't. 

And given that I can't read other guys' minds, I can't say whether they're lying or not on if they think a girl is trash because she slept with them on the first date. I can tell you I don't think a girl is trash if she does with me. Additionally, I would note that even if girls are nervous that they fear the guy will think they're trashy if they immediately jump into bed, I would ask "Well...why did you immediately jump into bed with guy XYZ then?" 



leftfield said:


> There is so much messed up with this whole line of thinking. (Not directed at FIP)


So was this directed at me then?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> So you mean, dancing in the rain barefoot with no makeup on...and hopefully I remembered to shave my legs...?? Lol!!!


Yes! That's exactly what I mean! I pretended to be someone else when I was dating a former bf. (Kind of like you-au naturale--stopped coloring my hair, light makeup, t shirts, etc) and I finally said to myself, this isn't me. I missed my makeup and hair and shoes and clothes. I'm a girly girl at heart.

Pretending to be someone else is a death knell to your soul.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> And if she wants to wait with you, but she hasn't waited with other people, it's probably because she sees you as someone with long-term potential and wants to build a real connection with you. And women know what men think of us if we have sex with you on the first date.


Exxxaaactly!!!!

I can confirm this by my personal experience. 
I've waited a lot more with the guys I was genuinely interested in and way less with those I wasn't because I didn't care much about them and their thoughts about me.

Whereas for men I saw some potential to be with, I was "afraid" to sleep right away for fear of being judged and dismissed. So my safer way was to wait - not just to look good in their eyes but I was also interested in getting to know them deeper and more in other aspects as well. 

So, @Broken at 20 don't take it personal if the woman doesn't sleep with you right away.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> I can confirm this by my personal experience.
> I've waited a lot more with the guys I was genuinely interested in and way less with those I wasn't because I didn't care much about them and their thoughts about me.


So, you give sex more easily to those you don't care about, but expect those you do care about to wait some arbitrary length of time because....feelings?

And I'm supposed to feel special about this because...why? Like, I don't understand. 

As a guy, this does not compute.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Broken at 20 said:


> So was this directed at me then?


Nope. It was just pointing out that the whole thought process as discribed was littered with issues.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

lovelygirl said:


> Exxxaaactly!!!!
> 
> I can confirm this by my personal experience.
> I've waited a lot more with the guys I was genuinely interested in and way less with those I wasn't because I didn't care much about them and their thoughts about me.
> ...





Broken at 20 said:


> So, you give sex more easily to those you don't care about, but expect those you do care about to wait some arbitrary length of time because....feelings?
> 
> As a guy, this does not compute.


Yes it does if you look at dating as having fun and not looking for a life partner on every date.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> Yes it does if you look at dating as having fun and not looking for a life partner on every date.


Ok, so please tell me I am not alone when I say that this thought process MAKES NO SENSE!


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I’m not sure I understand the withholding sex thing either and I’m a girl lol! If the fireworks are there then they’re there! I’m not going to douse that flame because I think the guy has some serious potential, especially that guy.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So, you give sex more easily to those you don't care about, but expect those you do care about to wait some arbitrary length of time because....feelings?
> 
> And I'm supposed to feel special about this because...why? Like, I don't understand.
> 
> As a guy, this does not compute.


Yes. Because with the guys I didn't care (for any LTR) I was simply attracted to them sexually and that was enough for me. I wanted to have sex, have my fun and I didn't really think what he'd think of me.
After all, I might never meet him again so who cares. I knew what I was in it for, so .... as long (or as short) as it lasted, it was good for me ...and bye bye. So sex was easily given/taken.

Whereas with LTR-potential guys I'd think twice..about almost everything. I cared about their opinion and didn't want to seem like an easy target (just like I saw other guys I was short-term with).


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Not said:


> I’m not sure I understand the withholding sex thing either and I’m a girl lol! If the fireworks are there then they’re there! I’m not going to douse that flame because I think the guy has some serious potential, especially that guy.


Lol we might operate differently.
Just like some men operate differently. There are men who value virginity and others who don't.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Ok, so please tell me I am not alone when I say that this thought process MAKES NO SENSE!


In this thread you might be alone 🙂. 

Unless @ConanHub jumps in to join you. I remember Mrs.Conan had sex with him right away, if I'm not mistaken???


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

lovelygirl said:


> Lol we might operate differently.
> Just like some men operate differently. There are men who value virginity and others who don't.


It seems so but how do you know? It seems an awful lot to figure out.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Yes. Because with the guys I didn't care (for any LTR) I was simply attracted to them sexually and that was enough for me. I wanted to have sex, have my fun and I didn't really think what he'd think of me.
> After all, I might never meet him again so who cares. I knew what I was in it for, so .... as long (or as short) as it lasted, it was good for me ...and bye bye. So sex was easily given/taken.
> 
> Whereas with LTR-potential guys I'd think twice..about almost everything. I cared about their opinion and didn't want to seem like an easy target (just like I saw other guys I was short-term with).


So if we reverse this in the spirit of the original question of this thread....

That means you're paying for your meals. Because I want to be sure you're here for the right reasons, and not just because I make X dollars a year. I mean, it's not like we have posters in this thread that have said they lose sexual attraction if they had to pay for their.....oh......wait........


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I would have jumped my current guys bones on the first date if circumstances had allowed it. This is not something I’ve done with any first dates since my divorce two years ago. This guy though was different, the chemistry was so powerful, no way I would have stopped it if we had had the chance. I think stopping it not only would have made me look like a tease but I don’t think we would have made it past that first date either. Stopping it would have been so unnatural.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Broken at 20 said:


> Ok, so please tell me I am not alone when I say that this thought process MAKES NO SENSE!


I dated lots of women when I was single and I had one purpose in mind. To get laid as soon and as often as possible. 
And unlike a previous poster, I always looked for the hottest women around to date.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> I dated lots of women when I was single and I had one purpose in mind. To get laid as soon and as often as possible.
> And unlike a previous poster, I always looked for the hottest women around to date.


So Andy, if you found someone who you WANTED to have an LTR with (not just get laid), did you NOT sleep with her on the first date because you didn't want her to think that way about you?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Ok, so please tell me I am not alone when I say that this thought process MAKES NO SENSE!





Broken at 20 said:


> Ok, so please tell me I am not alone when I say that this thought process MAKES NO SENSE!



Doesnt matter if it makes sense or not, Broken. Everybody approaches dating differently and determines what is important to them differently. What you need to do is find out what YOUR requirements, rules, guidelines (whatever you chose to call them) for dating are and stick to them. That will help you see incompatibilities sooner and save a lot of hurt feelings later.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Doesnt matter if it makes sense or not, Broken. Everybody approaches dating differently and determines what is important to them differently. *What you need to do is find out what YOUR requirements, rules, guidelines *(whatever you chose to call them) for dating are and stick to them. That will help you see incompatibilities sooner and save a lot of hurt feelings later.


Allow me to sum up my requirements: 

AHEM: 

My expectations are low. But they can always go lower. 

_DROPS MIC_


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So if we reverse this in the spirit of the original question of this thread....
> 
> That means you're paying for your meals. Because I want to be sure you're here for the right reasons, and not just because I make X dollars a year. I mean, it's not like we have posters in this thread that have said they lose sexual attraction if they had to pay for their.....oh......wait........


If I'm having only sex with you then we won't be sharing any meal together. No drinks no nothing. Just our bodies. Don't worry. You won't have to spend any penny.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

jlg07 said:


> So Andy, if you found someone who you WANTED to have an LTR with (not just get laid), did you NOT sleep with her on the first date because you didn't want her to think that way about you?


That's a good question I was about to ask.

How did your wife "convince" you to marry her?
Or it started out as FWB and changed its course?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Allow me to sum up my requirements:
> 
> AHEM:
> 
> ...



I shouldn't have laugh at this haha


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Allow me to sum up my requirements:
> 
> AHEM:
> 
> ...


Beware. Women catch it in the air when guys have low expactations and it turns them off.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> So, you give sex more easily to those you don't care about, but expect those you do care about to wait some arbitrary length of time because....feelings?
> 
> And I'm supposed to feel special about this because...why? Like, I don't understand.
> 
> As a guy, this does not compute.


I'll try to explain the way it's been explained to me. There are different criteria for specific relationship types we (both men and women) use to evaluate others. 

In a "just sex" situation, the only criteria might be "must be sexually desirable and available right now". That's it. 

In a "friendship" situation, the criteria might be "loyalty, similar political views, shared interests/hobbies, etc". 
In casual situation there may be more criteria used to evaluate a potential partner but it's the long term situation which has the most t
criteria. It becomes even more complicated by the evaluation of these criteria against immediate gratification versus long term satisfaction. Eg 1. Person 1 (man or woman) is physically attractive but not very smart. They are a "GO" when evaluated against "just sex" criteria but may be an "absolute NO" when evaluated against long term criteria. Eg 2. Person 2 (man or woman) is not initially physically attractive but meets a bunch of criteria for a long term partner. Over time, person 2 may become physically attractive based on other qualities. It's the old fashioned kind of attraction that builds over time. 

Personally, I don't have sex without an emotional connection and feeling safe/secure/protected. I'm too old to fall for the pretty face with the hot body. In my case it takes Quality Time. Lots and lots of quality time interacting in real life.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> So Andy, if you found someone who you WANTED to have an LTR with (not just get laid), did you NOT sleep with her on the first date because you didn't want her to think that way about you?


When I finally found someone who I wanted a relationship with she didn’t even want to date me much less sleep with me. I would have had sex with her on the spot if she’d been willing lol.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> I shouldn't have laugh at this haha






lovelygirl said:


> Beware. Women catch it in the air when guys have low expactations and it turns them off.


My humor is wasted on this website. 



Lila said:


> Personally, I don't have sex without an emotional connection and feeling safe/secure/protected. I'm too old to fall for the pretty face with the hot body. In my case it takes Quality Time. Lots and lots of quality time interacting in real life.


So, when you were younger, say....maybe 28, was this the requirement? Or was it much looser?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

lovelygirl said:


> Beware. Women catch it in the air when guys have low expactations and it turns them off.


I never go into a first date with ANY expectations. Never found that to turn women off, actually its been the opposite. My last date said it was refreshing to not have any pressure on her. Maybe I'm wrong? Who knows but it seems to be working


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Ok, so please tell me I am not alone when I say that this thought process MAKES NO SENSE!


Because if I wait to have sex with you, that means I want to invest in something with you. If I have sex with you on the first date, you'll think I'm a ***** and I'll lose my chance at a relationship with you. Does that help in your understanding?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> So, when you were younger, say....maybe 28, was this the requirement? Or was it much looser?


Lol, I'm not the right person to answer this question. I was a serial monogamist and was one to wait even back then. 

First relationship, 18-a few months before 20. Then had a series of short term on/off relationships (3-6 months) before meeting my ex husband at 21 years old. I was with my ex for 23 years when we split up. None of those started off with sex in the first second, or even 3rd date so maybe I did need the emotional connection even back then.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

lucy999 said:


> Because if I wait to have sex with you, that means I want to invest in something with you. If I have sex with you on the first date, you'll think I'm a *** and I'll lose my chance at a relationship with you. Does that help in your understanding?


No?
Because I won't think you're ****? I'll think you were really attracted to me, and I'll want a second date like...ASAP.

And girls that have put out on date 1 with me, I take somewhere nicer than I probably originally planned on date 2, because I know where the date is ending.
If there was no interest by date 3, I don't put in any effort, and just assume you weren't attracted to me in the first place, and move to the next person.

ETA: 
But, then again, I am a very unique person in my life experiences. So maybe this is unique to me?


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

leftfield said:


> There is so much messed up with this whole line of thinking. (Not directed at FIP)


Oh, it is absolutely freaking messed up. But this is the way a lot (not all) men think.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

lucy999 said:


> Because if I wait to have sex with you, that means I want to invest in something with you. If I have sex with you on the first date, you'll think I'm a *** and I'll lose my chance at a relationship with you. Does that help in your understanding?


THIS^^^^

Thanks, Luce. I don't see why this concept is so difficult to understand.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Allow me to sum up my requirements:
> 
> AHEM:
> 
> ...


Lolol!!!!!


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> No?
> Because I won't think you're ****? I'll think you were really attracted to me, and I'll want a second date like...ASAP.
> 
> And girls that have put out on date 1 with me, I take somewhere nicer than I probably originally planned on date 2, because I know where the date is ending.
> ...


If that's the way you think, then you probably are unique.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> No?
> Because I won't think you're ****? I'll think you were really attracted to me, and I'll want a second date like...ASAP.
> 
> And girls that have put out on date 1 with me, I take somewhere nicer than I probably originally planned on date 2, because I know where the date is ending.
> ...


Yeah, no show of interest by the second or third date, time to move on.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> No?
> Because I won't think you're ****? I'll think you were really attracted to me, and I'll want a second date like...ASAP.
> 
> And girls that have put out on date 1 with me, I take somewhere nicer than I probably originally planned on date 2, because I know where the date is ending.
> ...


You're the outlier here. My mother told me that "nice girls" remain virgins until they marry. Well I laughed in her face.(Remember I'm old! That's antiquated thinking IMO.) Try again Mom. She said ok then. "Nice girls" don't have sex on the first date. If they do, they're not wife material.

And that's a common "fact".

Some anecdotal evidence, maybe: My first 2 long term relationships failed miserably. I slept with them on the first date.

My husband? We waited for a handful of dates. I just now asked him why he didn't make the moves on the first date. He laughed and said his former relationships asked him the same thing. He said he didn't want me or the others to think he was just out to get laid. He truly is a good man. Never thought I'd meet one.

Now we are married. Coincidence? Maybe.

ETA: I feel like I need to issue a huge caveat. I do NOT subscribe to the whole don't sleep with him on the first date. Someone who does is NOT a *****. If that's the case,I'm a big old *****, then. This last go around, I decided to try something different. Lord knows I've hard my share of good times. I decided to alter my usual MO as an experiment.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> You're the outlier here. My mother told me that "nice girls" remain virgins. Well I laughed in her face.(Remember I'm old! That's antiquated thinking IMO.) Try again Mom. She said ok then. "Nice girls" don't have sex on the first date. If they do, they're not wife material.
> 
> And that's a common "fact".
> 
> ...


I'm not sure he is really an outlier in HIS generation...expectations and standards have changed MUCH for those kids...

In fact, I've never MET a single man who had a standard that women who had sex on the first date weren't LTR material, and I know a few women who never wait if they don't want to, and they have had and/or are IN LTRs, so I don't believe that women should be denying their own desires just to appear "chaste" (or whatever) for a guy they like...I don't know if it really accomplishes what they are trying to do...maybe we should poll the men of TAM...?? Lol!


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> If that's the way you think, then you probably are unique.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


So you're telling me, that most guys, when on a second date with a girl that already did them on the first date, won't be as nice on the following dates? Or...treat her better on following dates? Like, why!? You know where the date is ending, why not invest more in that relationship than some other relationship where you haven't gotten a return on the investment?! 

That being said, the guys I have talked to think similarly to how I do. But, I also know that there is a difference between what people say, and what they do. So if most guys generally act that way, I can't really fault women for treating all guys like that because we have to operate in a world of generalizations.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm curious.

So, this woman who has sex with you on the first date, that you don't think badly about, cause she's just super attracted to you?

Let's pretend you're really into her, and you want her as yours. Maybe for forever.

Do you care about her past at all? Is this a topic that truly isn't of interest to you, and you don't plan on _ever_ bringing up?

Cause, personally, I don't see how sex on every first date (or second or third) is sustainable - in terms of acceptance. Since that's the expectation these days.

What if she's had sex on _every_ first date - and she's gone on tons of dates. But she's a modern woman, and that's how she rolls.

That's not an issue for you?

I have a really hard time believing that that would never be a problem for most men.

I think that men want a woman who'll have sex on the first date _with them_ - but I seriously doubt it's just fine with that same man if she's been riding every other male she's come in contact with.



Broken at 20 said:


> No?
> Because I won't think you're ****? I'll think you were really attracted to me, and I'll want a second date like...ASAP.
> 
> And girls that have put out on date 1 with me, I take somewhere nicer than I probably originally planned on date 2, because I know where the date is ending.
> ...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> So, this woman who has sex with you on the first date, that you don't think badly about, cause she's just super attracted to you?
> 
> ...


Well, if she has sex with ANYONE whether she likes them or not, then she obviously has some emotional issues, and that could be a red flag for it...but if a woman LIKES a guy and WANTS him, shouldn't she be free to have sex with him if she wants to...?? 

Maybe women like to wait with a guy they like to make sure he actually likes her back, so she doesn't just have sex with someone who doesn't care about her at all...?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

If she's having sex on a first date, then she _is_ willing to have sex with ANYONE. 



LisaDiane said:


> Well, if she has sex with ANYONE whether she likes them or not, then she obviously has some emotional issues, and that could be a red flag for it...but if a woman LIKES a guy and WANTS him, shouldn't she be free to have sex with him if she wants to...??
> 
> Maybe women like to wait with a guy they like to make sure he actually likes her back, so she doesn't just have sex with someone who doesn't care about her at all...?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> you're telling me, that most guys, when on a second date with a girl that already did them on the first date, won't be as nice on the following dates? Or...treat her better on following dates? Like, why


Chances are he might take her for granted. Also, he knows what is happening and leaves nothing to the imagination or anticipation. Basically, he doesn't have to " "fight" for anything related to her.

Actually, he'll think about a shortcut - by the 3rd date...there'll be no date at all. He'll propose sex and booty calls. He'll jump right into bed with her.
If he did her on 1st date, why bother with the rest of the courting phase and why spend any more money??

****
That said, not all 1st-date-sex is wired like this...but there are a lot of guys who think with the above logic.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I'm not sure he is really an outlier in HIS generation...expectations and standards have changed MUCH for those kids...


You know what? You're probably right. My stepdaughter, who is 20, is now living with a young man but until that time, she was pretty chaste. At least that's how she appeared in her actions and how she spoke. Lol. She is the only young person I know so I don't have a good grasp on today's youth.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Also, @Broken at 20 in one of your previous posts you mentioned the fact that if you don't try for the girl and improve your "game" then the other guys who are lined up for her will grab her and take her away from you.
In a sense, you keep on trying and "fighting" for her and this fact alome makes her more valuable to you.
People don't really appriciate things or other people they don't fight for because things that come easily, might also go easily.
It's human nature.

If you had more options than this girl and she was waiting on her toes for you, you'd replace her the next day.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

minimalME said:


> I'm curious.
> 
> So, this woman who has sex with you on the first date, that you don't think badly about, cause she's just super attracted to you?


Assume you're asking me? 
Uh....yes? 
I'm 6'3" and I workout a ton for my football hobby, so I'm in good shape. Who wouldn't be attracted to me? Besides like, 90% of girls I swipe right for on Tinder? 



> Let's pretend you're really into her, and you want her as yours. Maybe forever.


LOLOLOLOL
Oh, that's a good one. 

Oh, you were serious? 
Again, I am the illegitimate child of an affair from a wrecked marriage, and raised by a man who was the illegitimate child of an affair. 
I would rather sit in the electric chair than walk down the aisle. At lest the chair will kill me quickly and not drag it out over 20, 30, 40 years. 


> Do you care about her past at all? Is this a topic that truly isn't of interest to you, and you don't plan on _ever_ bringing up?
> 
> Cause, personally, I don't see how sex on every first date is sustainable - in terms of acceptance. Since that's the expectation these days.


Depends on how serious she expects to get. 
Do I tell girls I am never getting married? No, I just let them think whatever they want (to those of you asking me why I am a terrible person, lying by omission is probably on that list) 
If she wanted to live with me....which would take a lot of time before I EVER agreed to that, yeah, I'd probably ask about her past. 
And she'd lie to me. Then she'd ask me about my past. And I'd lie through my teeth about everything. 
So...next?


> What if she's had sex on _every_ first date - and she's gone on tons of dates. But she's a modern woman, and that's how she rolls.
> 
> That's not an issue for you?


Depends on what you consider issue. 
Would I casually date her? Yeah. 
Would I consider her for something more? Maybe? Depends on how much I like her. 
But I'm not looking for a wife, and I've already had my heart ripped out more times than I can remember, so I don't think she could really damage me any further. 

Again, I am not looking for forever, nor do I believe in forever. So maybe that changes the answer you were expecting?


> I have a really hard time believing that that would never be a problem for most men.
> 
> I think that men want a woman who'll have sex on the first date _with them_ - but I seriously doubt it's just fine with that same man if she's been riding every other male she's come in contact with.


It would be a problem depending on what she is expecting from me. Like, LTR, it might bother me, but I also wouldn't want her asking about my past. 
And just because she gets down to business on the first date with me, I don't assume she gets down to business with every guy on a first date. 
Do you?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I stopped reading after this. That's all I needed to know. 😂 



Broken at 20 said:


> Do I tell girls I am never getting married? No, I just let them think whatever they want


----------



## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> THIS^^^^
> 
> Thanks, Luce. I don't see why this concept is so difficult to understand.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


I think it is easy enough to understand. It is just so radically different than how some people think that it seems assinine. I would not even consider a woman that uses this type of logic. Thankfully, I'm not on the market, so I should probably butt out of this thread.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> Also, @Broken at 20 *in one of your previous posts you mentioned the fact that if you don't try for the girl and improve your "game" then the other guys who are lined up for her will grab her and take her away from you.
> In a sense, you keep on trying and "fighting" for her and this fact alome makes her more valuable to you.
> People don't really appriciate things or other people they don't fight for because things that come easily, might also go easily.*
> It's human nature.
> ...


I was not describing any particular situation I have ever been in (at least, that I am consciously aware of). I was merely describing the sexual dating market for my age range at this time. The average girl has more options than the average guy, hell, even the above average guy probably. 

And if you don't believe, make a Tinder profile of an average 24 year old girl, and see how many matches you get. I'll bet you'll get more matches in a day than I'll get all week. 

And I was using that argument to explain why I pay. Do I like paying? Again, NO! 
But I also realize, even if I'm on a date with an average girl and expect her to go dutch, that's NOT going to happen if I want a second date (or sex). Because, she'll replace me with some guy that WILL pay for her. Therefore, I do pay. Because if I don't, I know this isn't going anywhere. And female posters here (even ones that are outside my generation) say that they would be turned off going dutch. 

If you're asking if I know how to spin game, yes, I do, and I will lie and spin game all night. 

Again, I know I'm replaceable in the dating market to girls. I can't change it. So I have to adapt.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

minimalME said:


> I stopped reading after this. That's all I needed to know. 😂


Given my life experiences, are you actually surprised by my stance?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm not surprised by much these days.

Using your past as an excuse? Although I do understand, that mindset will leave you stuck. 

At some point (if you want to mature and grow), you're going to have take responsibility for your choices. At some point 'it's my parent's fault' just isn't going to be satisfying/enough anymore.



Broken at 20 said:


> Given my life experiences, are you actually surprised by my stance?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

minimalME said:


> If she's having sex on a first date, then she _is_ willing to have sex with ANYONE.


Lol! NO!!! That's NOT true!


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

minimalME said:


> I'm not surprised by much these days.
> 
> Using your past as an excuse? Although I do understand, that mindset will leave you stuck.
> 
> At some point (if you want to mature and grow), you're going to have take responsibility for your choices. At some point 'it's my parent's fault' just isn't going to be satisfying/enough anymore.


Or it's a matter of I have seen the absolute worst a marriage can be, for both sexes, and have seen the devastating effects it can have. 

I can also see the mistakes that my parents have made. Now, most people say they don't want to repeat the mistakes of their parents. But my dad repeated the exact same mistakes of the man who raised him. 
So, knowing that, and when looking at marriage statistics, roughly 50% of them fail, and we can google that for tons of sources. Plus that doesn't account for people who stay together and are miserable. So if that "stay together but are miserable" is higher than just 1%, we can pretty much assume that I have a higher likelihood of getting divorced or being miserable, than I do of being happy in a marriage. Or let's say maybe I don't want to get divorced. Well, of those 50% that get divorced, women initiate the vast majority of divorces. So the marriage may end without my consent.


Now, after reading all that, and knowing my past, I want you to look in my face, and tell me marriage is a good idea. Try telling me I have to mature and get married, knowing those above statistics.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

That's not the issue. Deceiving women about your true thoughts about marriage is the issue


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

You don't get it.

A woman who has sex on a first date is having sex with a stranger. So, she's absolutely willing to have sex with _anyone_. She just did.



LisaDiane said:


> Lol! NO!!! That's NOT true!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I understand. I really do. 

I should never have gotten married, so I admire the fact that you know yourself, and you're honest about your inability to be a good partner.



Broken at 20 said:


> Now, after reading all that, and knowing my past, I want you to look in my face, and tell me marriage is a good idea. Try telling me I have to mature and get married, knowing those above statistics.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

This thread has ruined me for feeling or acting any kind of normal or carefree about the issue of who is paying for a date, ever again, so thank you to all of the participants!


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

In reading this thread I was reminded of this quote:









A quote from The Speed of Trust


We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their behaviour.



www.goodreads.com





"We judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions."

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Livvie said:


> This thread has ruined me for feeling or acting any kind of normal or carefree about the issue of who is paying for a date, ever again, so thank you to all of the participants!


Meh, most first dates are at most in the tens of dollars. Anyone that gets worked up about paying or splitting is probably too high strung for a long term relationship anyway. I mean how are they going to react if something that actually matters comes up?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hiner112 said:


> Meh, most first dates are at most in the tens of dollars. Anyone that gets worked up about paying or splitting is probably too high strung for a long term relationship anyway. I mean how are they going to react if something that actually matters comes up?


Untrue. 

Some dates are $100 plus for a nice dinner.

Some people have shared that the dynamic of who pays on a first date can completely influence what they think going forward, and these people do not seem high strung and yes have been in long term relationships or marriages.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Lol! NO!!! That's NOT true!


Agree. Sometimes it’s just that magic happens. Also, I would hope these couple going out on their first dates have communicated at least somewhat before hand. My BF and I knew a lot about each other before meeting after hours of text and talking.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lovelygirl said:


> In this thread you might be alone 🙂.
> 
> Unless @ConanHub jumps in to join you. I remember Mrs.Conan had sex with him right away, if I'm not mistaken???


I'm probably an outlier. Every woman I had sex with was within hours of meeting her including Mrs. Conan. Quite a few just wanted to take me for a spin. Quite a few wanted more and were eager to bed me to convince me and some just wanted fun at first but changed their minds to want more after some sex.

Mrs. Conan probably fits the last group. She started with just wanting to get her brains knocked out but after a week of romps, roughly 30x, she started falling for me which worked for me because I wanted her the instant I saw her.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Untrue.
> 
> Some dates are $100 plus for a nice dinner.
> 
> Some people have shared that the dynamic of who pays on a first date can completely influence what they think going forward, and these people do not seem high strung and yes have been in long term relationships or marriages.


I would say that spending enough on a meal with a stranger that who pays matters is questionable at best.

If someone attaches importance to something that doesn't matter, I'm not sure what else to call it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It's important enough to have a 17 page thread about... .. ....


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

minimalME said:


> You don't get it.
> 
> A woman who has sex on a first date is having sex with a stranger. So, she's absolutely willing to have sex with _anyone_. She just did.


And this is not necessarily true either!! Lol!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Do I tell girls I am never getting married? No, I just let them think whatever they want (to those of you asking me why I am a terrible person, lying by omission is probably on that list)


Naaahh...I'm still not swayed...you're NOT a "terrible person"...!!


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

minimalME said:


> You don't get it.
> 
> A woman who has sex on a first date is having sex with a stranger. So, she's absolutely willing to have sex with _anyone_. She just did.


So are we talking about ONS or dates? 
Would I date a ONS, some girl I randomly pick up in a bar? Unless she looked like Scarlett Johansson, probably not. 
If it's a girl I took on a date, I've gotten to know them somewhat. I'm not saying I've known them for weeks, or days, or whatever, but I've met them through whatever means, texted, and decided "They're attractive and their personality doesn't repulse me. Let's see if she'll go on a date." 

If you honestly believe what you wrote, I think you might have some...problem. 
Luckily, the free arm-chair psychotherapist from TAM will tell your deep seated insecurities, for free! 



Livvie said:


> This thread has ruined me for feeling or acting any kind of normal or carefree about the issue of who is paying for a date, ever again, so thank you to all of the participants!


Well...maybe now you can see things from a new POV? Like I do? 

Like, I never understood why a girl, if she is attracted to me, and jumped right into bed with some other guy, wouldn't do it with me. And now I do. 
And I realized, some girl might be interested in me, and decide to go dutch. I would completely write her off, which is the wrong thing to do. So I've lightened up on having to pay for the first few dates. (After a while I wish she would pay, but again...another argument)


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan probably fits the last group. She started with just wanting to get her brains knocked out but after a week of romps, roughly 30x, she started falling for me which worked for me because I wanted her the instant I saw her.


Hell, my cold, dead heart might fall in love after a week of that.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes, I'm sure it's just my problem. 😂

All the nuance is ridiculous and means absolutely nothing, but feel free to divide it up and define it however you like - one night stand, 'dating', friends with benefits, **** buddy, etc.

I mean, the goal for you is to have sex as quickly as possible without any responsibility, commitments or obligations, right?

Carry on!



Broken at 20 said:


> So are we talking about ONS or dates?
> Would I date a ONS, some girl I randomly pick up in a bar? Unless she looked like Scarlett Johansson, probably not.
> If it's a girl I took on a date, I've gotten to know them somewhat. I'm not saying I've known them for weeks, or days, or whatever, but I've met them through whatever means, texted, and decided "They're attractive and their personality doesn't repulse me. Let's see if she'll go on a date."
> 
> ...


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So you're telling me, that most guys, when on a second date with a girl that already did them on the first date, won't be as nice on the following dates? Or...treat her better on following dates? Like, why!? You know where the date is ending, why not invest more in that relationship than some other relationship where you haven't gotten a return on the investment?!
> 
> That being said, the guys I have talked to think similarly to how I do. But, I also know that there is a difference between what people say, and what they do. So if most guys generally act that way, I can't really fault women for treating all guys like that because we have to operate in a world of generalizations.


What I'm saying is for most guys who got sex in the first date, they either disappear because they got what they wanted, or the second date and most thereafter are booty calls rather than actual dates. 

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

minimalME said:


> If she's having sex on a first date, then she _is_ willing to have sex with ANYONE.


If that woman is willing to go out with just anyone, then yes.

Some women are pickier... I generally won't go out on a date with a guy unless I'm pretty sure already that I want to have sex with him. I don't have time to waste with men I'm not interested in having sex with. 

And while I HAVE had sex on a first date, I don't always have sex on the first date. There has to be a lot of chemistry for that to happen.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Untrue.
> 
> Some dates are $100 plus for a nice dinner.
> 
> Some people have shared that the dynamic of who pays on a first date can completely influence what they think going forward, and these people do not seem high strung and yes have been in long term relationships or marriages.


I have never been on a first date that was that expensive. Nice dinners are not for first dates. No wonder some people are going broke dating! LOL

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I have never been on a first date that was that expensive. Nice dinners are not for first dates. No wonder some people are going broke dating! LOL
> 
> Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk


When I met my wife our first twenty odd dates were just early morning coffee or else a lunchtime sandwich. She started work very early and as she had a two year old she wasn’t free in the evening. She also had been badly deceived by her sons father and was very cautious about dating. 
I finally convinced her to come out to dinner with me. A friend of mine got me a table in one of Boston’s finest restaurants so everything was planned perfectly. I thought....
When we got to the street that the restaurant was on there were three fire trucks and dozens of cops blocking it. The kitchen in the restaurant had caught fire. 
We ended up in Burger King.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

In my experience, when I was dating other women 24 years ago and beyond. I paid for the first date if I asked them out on that date, while they paid for that date when they asked me out on that first date. Then on subsequent dates if they didn't have money I paid, or if I didn't have money they paid. Or we took it it in turns or shared the cost variably with no particular discussion about it.

I've had women pick me up, drive me to a restaurant, movies etc pay for it all then take me back to their place asking me to have sex with them. I've picked women up for first dates, paid for it all, and then have gone back to their place to have had sex with them. I've gone on first dates with women and we have shared the costs, followed by sex part way through or at the end of the first date.

My wife who I have been with for 24 years, asked me out on our first date (lunchtime) and neither of us spent any money. We then followed that with an evening date after work finished, where I paid for part of that date and she decided to pay for another part. We then went back to hers and I spent the night with her. Followed by penetrative sex on our third date.

My ex-wife and I had sex within a couple of hours of meeting each other at a party, we then continued having sex and dating after that, which with extremely rare exception I paid for all of our dates since I had a job and she didn't.

I don't see who pays as a big deal either way at all.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Hiner112 said:


> would say that spending enough on a meal with a stranger that who pays matters is questionable at best.


 Spending a lot on a the first few dates is not smart at all - for whoever makes the payment. 
The first few dates or even the first few several weeks of dating or even month (depending on how often you meet) are about getting to know each other. I don't understand some people who have dinner on the first date. That's nonsense. Or even lunch.

Dinner is very up-close& personal, is more intimate...and such. It's for two people who have gotten real close and already have built a romantic perspective of their relationship. 
Whereas with a stranger, how can you be automatically linked romantically and personal?

IMO, for the first few dates is enough to have a small drink or walk or go to the park, if the real purpose of two people is to get to know each other deeply. This way, none of them gets to spend a lot of money either (if no money at all).


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> I already said I'm not looking to change society, I merely live in it.


I'm with you @Broken at 20. When I had a car and lived in the mid-west, I can think of 2 occassions in which walked me to my car after a party. I was later accused of going with him to get my brains ****ed out.

On another occasion, I was at a private party and one of the guests who was foreign told me he was going to get home by metro. The had already closed by then and I offered him a ride home. I saw the host a week somewhere and he was making vague statements that added up to "yeah, did you have a good time with him, wink wink." I gave the perplexed look thinking that I had saved him possible from an unwanted over night guest.

But there you go, I've learned to accept that managing the optics because people will hump to conclusions.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

My ex would sometimes make the same claim that buying or cooking meals was something she appreciated. The actual improvement in her attitude and/or our relationship often lasted long enough for me to finish cleaning up after supper and putting the leftovers in the fridge or walking back to the car. I cooked or bought nearly all of the meals during the time we lived together. None of the thousands of meals provided to the ex really mattered and the next meal I provide to someone else probably won't matter either regardless of what they may claim otherwise. 

Weighed against two decades of experience, 18 pages of comments is pretty unconvincing.

The expense really isn't important either. Since the ex moved out and we (the kids and I) don't eat out a couple times a week, I save almost $100 a week from the combined food expenses.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Untrue.
> 
> Some dates are $100 plus for a nice dinner.
> 
> Some people have shared that the dynamic of who pays on a first date can completely influence what they think going forward, and these people do not seem high strung and yes have been in long term relationships or marriages.


I'll say this.
Anyone who drops a hundo plus on a first date IMO is a pretentious clown.
The purpose of the first date or two (at least) is to determine interest and explore possibilities.
That is best accomplished by meeting for coffee, drinks, and other low or no cost activities such as that.
That's why I made the comment I did about how I deal with women who insist to pay their way on the first date. This type of activity does not merit that kind of response. I found that such a policy served as a useful tool in the vetting process.
My feeling on relationships was (and is) I want a woman that wants to be with me, not with my wallet.
In my life, I have turned down two marriage proposals (from women), an offer to shack up, been engaged twice, and married once.
The woman that I have spent the last 28 years with and I will be celebrating our 26th wedding anniversary tomorrow.
Never dropping a hundo plus on a first date worked for me.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

lucy999 said:


> I didn't date much in my tender years. Frankly, I was too busy partying in gay clubs. (I'm straight--alot of my friends were gay so you could see how the environment wasn't conducive for dating). Some ONS were involved but not alot of "dates" per se. Sorry, I don't really have an answer for you on that one.


So far only read some of the thread... and your comment here made me smile inside. Instantly took me back to a couple of clubs that I loved 'back in the day'. And the drag shows..! Around aged 17 (or a bit younger), is when my self-imposed rules were developed; such as friend and I were always to go home together and I didn't let guys buy me drinks. Sifting through the dusty, old memories, one that came to mind was locking eyes with a guy as he approached me. Chemistry. He started talking to impress, and I signalled that he didn't need to talk. How rude! That wasn't typical for me. We were kissing each others faces off. At some point, he had me kinda positioned up against a shelf in the bar, and when taking a breath, I glanced over his shoulder. A guy I had crushed on for a couple of years was a short distance away. And the most vivid part of that memory, was his surprised reaction saying, 'WHOA... Hearts!' Anyway, young self-imposed rule enforced, went home with my friend, not Mr Chemistry... plus we had school the next day, ahem. Clubbing aside, I'm stroking my (chin) whiskers and considering dates in the 90s. Of the few, I don't remember going dutch, despite offering. With Batman, we had talked a few times on the phone, before seeing one another at a club where we kissed and danced and... gasp... talked..! I was pretty smitten. He called the next day to line up our first date; arranged to meet at a nice cafe for lunch. I offered to pay, he took care of it. The date continued past lunch to hanging out, running errands, then dinner and a movie.

I am typically a fan of chivalry. I've mentioned before, that even friends and I are quite 'chivalrous' with one another. I connect it with consideration. Such as having a drink they'd like at the ready for when they arrive (sometimes), or saying 'this is on me..' without keeping tabs. Or better yet, my all time favorite which I learned from Batman, is the old taking care of payment without your guest realizing. Sometimes Batman and I will do this with each other... even though our money is shared. Settle the bill on the way to the restroom and return to the table without saying anything. I'm not sure I quite agree or understand about the cost of women getting ready and such, as I wear makeup typically in daily life anyway, hair pretty much the same, however, given I was single back when we still used pay-phones and taxis, I'm likely unqualified to comment!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> So, you give sex more easily to those you don't care about, but expect those you do care about to wait some arbitrary length of time because....feelings?
> 
> And I'm supposed to feel special about this because...why? Like, I don't understand.
> 
> As a guy, this does not compute.


I agree with you. Back in the olden days, like the '70s, women were concerned with that information getting around. But being a message board junkie and talking around, I get the impression that if a guy is aware of a woman's activities, then he adjusts accordingly.

I think the mirror image issue here is how much a guy spends on his date. if you look up some of my posts, i discuss the frustration that 
i had with my second husband while dating. He had a so called friend for whom, I found out he was paying for more things for her than he was for me. And guess what, it was also during that he knew she had a boyfriend. WTF, I'm glad we got that straight before marriage.

But one problem I see with a woman refusing sex before marriage, is that the guy is going to have reckon with the possibility that the relationship will not get to marriage; you two break up and then you find out she's having sex with someone else.

I certainly would never accept a relationship in which I was expected to pay 50/50 for everything. This issue was dealt with in the movie The Joy Luck Club. If we break up and I find out he's wining and dining someone else ...... what a waste for me. 

We all need to protect ourselves and not blindly acquiesce to other people's values. I think at the time of exclusivity is a good time to start having sex. For women, I can think of 2 good reasons to have sex. One, to avoid a guy who is still in the closet. And two) to avoid a guy who is using you to make another woman jealous. ie Well, at least I wasn't using you for sex. Well, time is valuable, too.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

minimalME said:


> Yes, I'm sure it's just my problem. 😂
> 
> All the nuance is ridiculous and means absolutely nothing, but feel free to divide it up and define it however you like - *one night stand, 'dating', friends with benefits, **** buddy, etc.*
> 
> ...


Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things. 

Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction? 
But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now. 

In a few months, that will change as the holidays roll around. And then I can give whoever I am interested in more time and effort in said dates, assuming I find someone. 



RebuildingMe said:


> Mods, I got a warning. Any other warning being issued here? Or can the feminists just run amuck?


I got no warning. 

Probably because I got the mods to laugh! (You don't have to admit it, we'll both just know you laughed and liked me more) 
Unless I get a warning after this posting. 

And again....what did you expect? 

You and I probably think a lot alike, and agree on this issue, and probably several others. 
The major difference is you would like things to change in a way that you think is for the better, where as I simply accept that this is the way the world operates and adapt to it so I can have more success than if I just wished for things to be different. And if you expected an online forum that isn't associated with anything Red Pill related to have open arms and accept what you think/say....I dare say, for someone (that I assume) older than me, you're very naive.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Broken at 20 said:


> Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.
> 
> Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
> But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.
> ...





Broken at 20 said:


> Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.
> 
> Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
> But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.
> ...





Broken at 20 said:


> Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.
> 
> Secondly, part of my end goal is always sex. That's why I ask said female out on a date. Why would I date someone whom I felt no sexual attraction?
> But at other times of the year, there might be something else I am looking for. Right now I'm not looking for more, because I am busy between work/gym/hobby. When dating or wanting to go exclusive, I think both partners should have the time to place that person highly on the priority list so they don't feel like they're the third wheel to something else (for me football, for others, I imagine work or maybe friends?). Therefore, since I currently can't provide someone the same amount of time/attention I would expect from them, I am not looking to date seriously now.
> ...


Nah, not naive. I totally understand red pill is not popular within the single female community because it is taking guys off the market, so to speak. I think the last stats I saw showed many more women on dating sites then men. The trend will continue as recently divorced men smarten up. This thread only makes me stronger in my convictions. Yes, we think alike. I’m not trying to change the world and I am probably twice your age. I just know what type of female I will associate with. If there is any hint of female privilege or feminism, I run for the hills. Lol


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> When I finally found someone who I wanted a relationship with she didn’t even want to date me much less sleep with me. I would have had sex with her on the spot if she’d been willing lol.


Do you think that she might have been playing hard to get?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> But when you were in your 20's, does the answer change? Did you go dutch as often, or just let the guy pay? And yes, I know there will be a generational block here.


In college I was even more into splitting checks, we were all on the budget.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I understand that you, and probably the majority, see them as different, and I accept that.

But because the bottom line is the same regardless, I lump all arbitrary categories into one messy pile of absurdity, with marriage being the opposite - and the highest standard.

And yet, our society is so filled with distractions and novelty, I don't think many marriages will survive either.

As a result, individuals will go back to being 'available', moving from person to person, selfishly using one another until they're dissatisfied (which really doesn't seem to take much these days), and then they'll be on the lookout for the next rush.

I don't want to conform to either of those two systems, so I choose to be content on my own. 😌

It's all very fascinating and dystopian, although I do feel quite sad for my adult children.

Sorry for the highjack. 😬



Broken at 20 said:


> Firstly, you know there is a difference in all those things, right? Like, you know ONS =/= FWB? Not whether or not you think I treat them different, but that you understand those are all different things.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> In college I was even more into splitting checks, we were all on the budget.


I paid more often too. But then I noticed that the guy would turn around and pay for other people.

with the counterintuitive ways that men behave, there's way too much motivation to sit on your hands. While women do tit for tat (in a positive way) I pay for you, you can payfor me later, the guys that I have gone out with act as if, well you paid before, you can pay again.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Look, even when I was in college, I'd find a way to pay.
My father taught me that a gentleman pays for a social engagement with a lady, even if said gentleman had no intention of remaining very much of a gentleman.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> In college I was even more into splitting checks, we were all on the budget.


In college, I was the poor kid on a full scholarship working two jobs to eat and pay rent, at an elite school full of legacies and trust fund kids, so I had no disposable income. So even if I did the asking, the guys usually insisted on paying... with daddy's credit card. But if it was a guy whose financial situation was like mine, then we would go dutch... or be creative so it wouldn't cost anything.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> You say I'm complaining, I say pointing about an entitlement attitude. Chicken-egg argument.
> 
> Given that I doubt the posters will come to an agreement, let me ask the female posters something. At what point do/have you offered to pay for the drinks, dinner, entertainment, split the bill, etc. ? The second date? The third date? After a few months? Never because he should always pay because he's the man and it's romantic that way? I'm curious if maybe I never reached that expected timeline, or if it ever happens.


Since women are not all of one mind, you will find that each woman goes by her own criteria which can make things confusing.

For example a woman who is looking for a guy to settle down and have children with and she wants to be a SAHM, will look for a man who will pay for just about everything. She's looking for a man who will support her and their children. A guy who is looking for this type of woman is more than happy to pay for everything. They are a very good fit.

Now there are the types of women, usually very good looking young women who don't have much else going for them are looking for some guy to pay for all the dates and wine and dine them because they think they are special. IMHO, this is a type of woman/girl to avoid. But some men enjoy this I suppose.

I don't fit in either of the above categories. I'm not looking to be supported or for 'free meal' type dates. I like to date men who I like and care about. I never 'offer' to pay for anything. If a man asks me out, I expect that he would pay for the date. If I ask him out, I expect to pay for the date. When would I ask a guy out? I don't have a set rule except when it feels right. I also would not go out on more than a couple of dates with a guy who I felt was a bad match. Why waste his time or mine?

Now, I have dated a couple of guys who ever very low income. So sometimes I paid for more things that they did. Or they we'd go to some very low cost places. Also a lot of dates can be things like long walks, hiking, museums, outdoor concerts, dinner at home, etc. The idea is to spend time together, not spend money.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

FeministInPink said:


> In college, I was the poor kid on a full scholarship working two jobs to eat and pay rent, at an elite school full of legacies and trust fund kids, so I had no disposable income. So even if I did the asking, the guys usually insisted on paying... with daddy's credit card. But if it was a guy whose financial situation was like mine, then we would go dutch... or be creative so it wouldn't cost anything.


Daddy's credit card? Heh. I didn't have any credit card until well after I graduated.

Try Gumby's pizza (which was cheap and excellent, so long as you didn't ask about the sourcing of the ingredients), stretching out the meal plan, or the chinese buffett across from campus. Great tasting food, again, so long as you didn't ask where it came from. Also, you didn't want to use the restroom there, because half the time it was stuffed up with "recycled" chinese food from the weekend before.

Otherwise, I was a classy date ;-).


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

I go half/half the first few dates......so if you play the game of pretending to reach for your wallet, I will GLADLY wait for you to finish reaching so that we can split the bill.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

aston said:


> I go half/half the first few dates......so if you play the game of pretending to reach for your wallet, I will GLADLY wait for you to finish reaching so that we can split the bill.


Do you tell the woman before the date that it's half & half?


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Do you tell the woman before the date that it's half & half?


Absolutely....no one likes surprises. I found the more mature older women (35 and over) really appreciated that and may of them went on to be either good friends or more. The one's that had a negative reaction (usually the younger ones...despite all the "strong independent woman" bull*hit).....never went anywhere and was a good way to weed through the good ones and the pure waste of time.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

FeministInPink said:


> In college, I was the poor kid on a full scholarship working two jobs to eat and pay rent, at an elite school full of legacies and trust fund kids, so I had no disposable income. So even if I did the asking, the guys usually insisted on paying... with daddy's credit card. But if it was a guy whose financial situation was like mine, then we would go dutch... or be creative so it wouldn't cost anything.


The creative dates are among the best... and as Ele suggested... about spending time with one another. When Batman and I were dating, very young, and certainly he isn't from wealth, he was working a job and had a side-hustle at the time. I was working, too. Stand out memory dates though, include him cooking for us, going for picnics.. low cost. However, my view would be if one is asking the other on a date, be prepared to pay. It doesn't mean the other can't offer; but I'd be of the mindset that whoever asks ought to take care of it. If the other insists, then let them.

And then I'll project my bug-bear - which is people who itemize bills. Okay, so if you're going dutch just split it down the middle. Don't itemize who had the steak compared to the salad, the whiskey compared to water, dessert and coffee afterwards or not... whatever... that kind of thing makes my head explode. Just go half and don't keep tabs. If you're hanging with people who would take advantage of this, then consider why you're choosing to be around them.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> Stand out memory dates though, include him cooking for us, going for picnics.. low cost.


Back when my wife and I started dating I asked her what time she got up in the morning before work, and then turned up at hers in the AM with a picnic basket full of nice breakfast stuff that I thought would be cool to share.

Likewise the first meal I cooked for my wife back then on one of our earliest dates, was a grilled baby octopus dish at my place.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

heartsbeating said:


> And then I'll project my bug-bear - which is people who itemize bills. Okay, so if you're going dutch just split it down the middle. Don't itemize who had the steak compared to the salad, the whiskey compared to water, dessert and coffee afterwards or not... whatever... that kind of thing makes my head explode. Just go half and don't keep tabs. If you're hanging with people who would take advantage of this, then consider why you're choosing to be around them.


A friend of mine used to waitress in NY and she always claims that the worst customers ever are groups of young women and the best customers are groups of men (any age).
The women will ask for the bill and then out comes the calculator on their phones and everything is calculated to the last cent. 
The men will get the bill, add the tip and then round it up to the nearest figure easily divided by the number of men in the group.
I’m sure she was exaggerating but I have heard restaurant staff saying that they hate serving a group of young women because they tip so poorly.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

A bit of comedy on dating... Sebastian Maniscalco... be prepared, have options!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I'm thinking a dating thread for married couples might be needed, for kicks n giggles. But aligned with Sebastian Maniscalco's hospitality - that is something I value. And I guess I would consider dating as being hospitality-related, in a sense. It's about sharing an experience, getting to know one another, and the social considerations make it special. As I've shared, I haven't dated as a single person in .............a very long time. Although I don't cook, or have interest in cooking, I do like hosting and considering others. That side of me has been influenced by the hosting experiences of my dad's wife, and really, through friends who are an Italian couple. Being on the receiving end had me recognizing that, oh yes, that's how I _want_ to host. My friend's Italian husband, in particular, inadvertently taught me a thing or two about hosting through his behavior.

Having friends over, there's options of drinks, including the soda that I know you particularly like which we wouldn't normally get. Or I know you only drink wine from that region and from a certain year. Or you're visiting with kids? There's games and a space set up especially for them, so you can relax. If I'm picking up someone from the airport; I'm like an uber. Bottled water and a snack is at the ready after the flight. To me, these things signal, 'I got you.' Like I said, I've been on the receiving end and inspired as a result.

To me, dating is connected with hospitality and consideration. As a married couple, perhaps it's dressing well, being on time, the car is cleaned, arrangements sorted.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

aston said:


> Absolutely....no one likes surprises. I found the more mature older women (35 and over) really appreciated that and may of them went on to be either good friends or more. The one's that had a negative reaction (usually the younger ones...despite all the "strong independent woman" bull*hit).....never went anywhere and was a good way to weed through the good ones and the pure waste of time.


how do you tell her????

"_hey we will go out together but make sure you pay your half!_" ???? 

I would've dumped you before you even finished the sentence. 😂


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> I am typically a fan of chivalry. I've mentioned before, that even friends and I are quite 'chivalrous' with one another. I connect it with consideration. Such as having a drink they'd like at the ready for when they arrive (sometimes), or saying 'this is on me..' without keeping tabs. Or better yet, my all time favorite which I learned from Batman, is the old taking care of payment without your guest realizing. Sometimes Batman and I will do this with each other... even though our money is shared. Settle the bill on the way to the restroom and return to the table without saying anything


Exactly! 

I like chivalry among friends and I've learned it from my mother who is quite chivalrous with her friends (whether males or females). 
My dad though was never a chivalrous type and whenever we'd go out as a family, either me or mom would always pay. 

I also love it when the other person takes care of the bill without making it obvious - it comes an interesting surprise when he says "It's okay, I already took care of this". I love this, but hardly any man is like this nowadays. Such manners are usually rooted during the upbringing of a person so not everyone can do this.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Why calculators? It’s pretty simple to ask the staff for separate checks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Didn't think this would be such a controversial topic, but here we go.

I'm always prepared to pay for the first few dates with a potential good match, even if she is the one who initiates contact (and that's not uncommon for me). Reasons:

First, it's gentlemanly. Ladies are attracted to guys who will put forth the effort to take care of an outing and make her feel special and cared-for. Second, I tend towards the generous side. I don't do blind dates - I'll have gotten to know a lady a bit and sometimes be acquainted with her prior to going out. So I'm already feeling some potential before even going out, and covering the bill is not a problem. I cover the bill for my regular friends too - just something I like to do.

Third, I might want something nice for myself and not care about the bill. I'm not going to do a nice teppan meal (yeah I like that) and then ask to split a $100 tab. Nor am I going to go somewhere I'm not really feeling just to keep a date under some specified threshold. It has nothing to do with being pretentious - just a matter of enjoying the fruits of my labor.

After the first few dates I do things a little differently. At that point, the mutual interest is there or it's not. If it's not, there's no reason to put any more effort than I'd do for an ordinary friendship. If the mutual interest is there and a relationship is a possibility, then our interactions should start to resemble what a workable relationship looks like.

And to me, that means having mutuality of effort. I don't mind doing the heavier lifting in a relationship. But ladies who expect to just sit back and have everything done are not for me. That goes beyond showing a lady that you got things handled, to reinforcing a sense that her time and resources are inherently more valuable than mine.

My approach is that any date is my equal - neither superior nor inferior. I bring a lot to the table and choose to be chivalrous and generous with what I have. But it's a choice not mandatory and there needs to be some reciprocity.

ETA: Lest someone misunderstand me, my ultimate goal is to have someone put in effort relative to her capability and show investment in the relationship. For a while I dated a lady with two kids who had family responsibilities and often not a lot of spare cash. With her, I was happy to split a pizza, or popcorn at the movies; it was what she could do and that was fine. With another lady (professional, good job, no kids) I expected a little more because she was able to do more. In fact, with her not having kids she probably could afford more than I did.

It all depends.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

@DTO your approach sounds fair enough. Depending on the woman your dating, your expectations vary when it comest to the amount she shall contribute but at least you don't rush to show her she'd rather split the bill or you're out.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> @DTO your approach sounds fair enough. Depending on the woman your dating, your expectations vary when it comes to the amount she shall contribute but at least you don't rush to show her she'd rather split the bill or you're out.


Hmmm, that sounds like a little bit of a backhanded compliment: "at least you don't rush" but not unfair.

I guess the best way to put it is (like I said) I don't mind doing the work in the beginning "getting to know you" first few dates. And at that point don't mind doing the heavier lifting from that point forward. But she does have to put in enough effort to demonstrate that she's willing to invest as well.

As far as my expectations varying depending on the lady, I don't think that's an accurate portrayal. I'm looking for a level of effort. But how that effort looks will vary depending on the lady. Not all have the same capability to provide and allowances need to be made.

Not too long ago, I dated a lady who was doing well. In fact, when we first met she was doing better than I was - really good job, no children. I paid the first few outings and still did the heavier lifting after that because that's just how I am. But it had gotten much more even than at the beginning; she wanted to show she was invested as well (which is how I want it).

Eventually that ran it's course. The next lady was still building a career, had two kids - much more going on. She's the generous type but just didn't have as much to give. I adjusted my expectations, because it would be foolish to expect something she didn't have to give. She did more than enough to show she was invested, and the sacrifices she made were as meaningful to her as those made by the first lady I mentioned, even if it didn't look like as much was done.

Hope that clarifies things.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Tdbo said:


> I'll say this.
> Anyone who drops a hundo plus on a first date IMO is a pretentious clown.
> The purpose of the first date or two (at least) is to determine interest and explore possibilities.
> That is best accomplished by meeting for coffee, drinks, and other low or no cost activities such as that.
> ...



That kind of 1st date would make me uncomfortable....I'd think there were expectations.

We went to a planetarium show for $5 each (he paid) and then had another date for lunch that involved $10 salads (he paid for that too).

We'd kind of known each other already (athletic club) so I knew we had chemistry and I liked him.

Four months later we went to dinner for valentine's day and that dinner probably cost $60...he paid for that too...but by this time we were regular and intimate.

We're a year and a,half in now and really don't eat out much, but when we do I don't mind paying (we take turns).


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Since the very beginning my girlfriend fights with me over who pays (EDIT: should clarify, we both want to pay!). We even developed a game out of it to stop the fighting, "shotgun" rules and scissors paper rock to break ties - sometimes in front of onlookers who impatiently roll their eyes at us. And she does this even while earning a fraction of my income.

I believe a man, as a man must volunteer to pay, always. But it is also up to the woman to show that she herself is willing to contribute. Even though I prefer to pay, I appreciate the latter even in the attempt, and in fact, if a woman doesn't show such initiative I must admit I would not consider a future with her. Money comes and goes but attitude, that's more permanent.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> she is not a feminist? she is independent, picking up a check, she works, she probably votes too. Hell, she is a feminist, that's all feminism is about.
> 
> You don't sound like you like women too much in general, do you?


I agree. But, I am more sympathetic (I am a man, so perhaps that is almost inevitable).
When people are being oppressed, they will want to over throw the system. After that, some will want a different oppressor, some will want to oppress themselves and others (a small minority) will want freedom and liberty for all.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> how do you tell her????
> 
> "_hey we will go out together but make sure you pay your half!_" ????
> 
> I would've dumped you before you even finished the sentence. 😂


If you can't pay for your own meal, or appreciate upfront honesty, then you don't deserve me. I'm not your meal ticket. The whole trick of rummaging through your purse pretending to contribute to the check doesn't fly with me. If you're an "independent woman"....then back it up. 
I would have swiped left on your leech ass before even contemplating a date lol


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Do you tell the woman before the date that it's half & half?


Always....I'm upfront. Since I don't know you and we're meeting for the first time, each party pays their part of the check. It's only fair!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I have to admit, I like to pay my portion on the first couple dates if it's with someone I don't really know. For example, I knew a guy from yoga and thought he was kind of cute...and asked him to coffee (this was like 20 years ago). I didn't expect him to buy my coffee--I invited him and it was just to start getting to know each other. So to me it's like one equal meeting another equal to see if there's anything there. If he paid, I believe he may feel "I owe him" and I won't put myself in that kind of position for someone I don't know. 

If I invite out to dinner--I pay! And I don't invite to something like dinner until I know the man, like the man, want to date the man, and think there's the possibility of dessert.  If that is where the relationship is, yeah I might say "Want to go to dinner? I'm buying so let's go to my favorite...." And then after a bit if he asks me to dinner, yep he pays. And a bit after that, if we're getting serious, we switch to letting him pay for dinner, and I chip in for something else like gas or a bottle of wine, etc. Finally, with EB and I we have joint accounts, both have access to each other's accounts, and just pay for almost everything together.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Didn’t post reply


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

aston said:


> If you can't pay for your own meal, or appreciate upfront honesty, then you don't deserve me. I'm not your meal ticket. The whole trick of rummaging through your purse pretending to contribute to the check doesn't fly with me. If you're an "independent woman"....then back it up.
> I would have swiped left on your leech ass before even contemplating a date lol


Most women can pay for their own meal, and aren't looking for a meal ticket when they go on dates.

They are looking for other qualities, and being calculative isn't exactly an attractive quality, nor is a good trait to have when married. A woman doesn't want to have to argue over money and contributions all her life. Just as a woman who takes takes takes, and doesn't give back is unattractive, a calculative man is as well.

Just my two cents.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I personally think it’s unattractive to always split the meal. I am so generous. Extremely generous with other things, that I don’t think expecting the man to pay for my meal is bad. 

I think that how generous the person is to you matters. If the man is buying my flowers, and jewelry and little gifts, and taking me on different adventures and other dates that he pays for/or plans, I have no problem splitting the meal, or paying every other turn. 

Personally, it’s expensive to be a girl. It’s expensive to look nice, and keep up with our “maintenance”. I also always have my refrigerator stocked, and purposely buy the kind of beer/drink my partner likes.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

aston said:


> If you can't pay for your own meal, or appreciate upfront honesty, then you don't deserve me. I'm not your meal ticket. The whole trick of rummaging through your purse pretending to contribute to the check doesn't fly with me. If you're an "independent woman"....then back it up.
> I would have swiped left on your leech ass before even contemplating a date lol


I certainly didn't see my now husband as my 'meal ticket' when we met or went on our first date. I was working full time, had my own home, two cars, I could easily have paid for our meal. What I wanted was to feel special, taken care of, treated a little. A bit of old fashioned romance. I wouldn't have cared whether our first date was for coffee, or lunch at a nice cafe. I never expected it to be a fancy, five star restaurant.

And, further - since marriage we have sold our other home (imo when we married it became ours, as opposed to mine), and he has benefited greatly financially from that, so I'd say he did alright in the end wouldn't you? Even though he paid for all of our dates. He also got a loving, proud, devoted stepmumma for his beautiful daughter thrown in just for fun.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> how do you tell her????
> 
> "_hey we will go out together but make sure you pay your half!_" ????
> 
> I would've dumped you before you even finished the sentence. 😂


It's simple.....it's on my dating profile. First date, mutual / equal ground I will gladly pay for my own meal. I've had female friends brag about how they never paid for meals when they were single and using guys for free meal and dates to save money.
This BS is real........unfortunately it's easy to play it of....but it ain't working on this guy. If you expect me to pay on day one...what else will you be expecting.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> A friend of mine used to waitress in NY and she always claims that the worst customers ever are groups of young women and the best customers are groups of men (any age).
> The women will ask for the bill and then out comes the calculator on their phones and everything is calculated to the last cent.
> The men will get the bill, add the tip and then round it up to the nearest figure easily divided by the number of men in the group.
> I’m sure she was exaggerating but I have heard restaurant staff saying that they hate serving a group of young women because they tip so poorly.


well. statistically they made 70 cents on the dollar of the man's salary, so maybe they have to be more frugal?.

When we go out, we ask for separate checks from the beginnings. Each of us pays separately, and tips separately. I always stick to 20-25%. If someone has a salad and one drink, and another big stakes, several drinkis, why would the other person pay for that? Many people are on the budget. Yes, they can afford night out for one person, but not to subsidise their friends.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> well. statistically they made 70 cents on the dollar of the man's salary, so maybe they have to be more frugal?.
> 
> When we go out, we ask for separate checks from the beginnings. Each of us pays separately, and tips separately. I always stick to 20-25%. If someone has a salad and one drink, and another big stakes, several drinkis, why would the other person pay for that? Many people are on the budget. Yes, they can afford night out for one person, but not to subsidise their friends.


That's because Teachers get paid like crap. And popping babies out isn't a very lucrative career move.

If it was really 70 cents, there would be a huge competitive advantage to be had by hiring all women in your company.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think who asks for the date pays for the date. I do NOT feel that way about when friends who know each other go out to eat together, though. I think they should either take turns or get separate checks. 

Once someone is seeing someone frequently, I think the woman should reciprocate some way. My way used to be "I'll buy drinks," and he would buy dinner. Traditionally, women have reciprocated by cooking dinner. Now more men cook too, so sometimes that isn't enough if he is also cooking for you.

Now remember, women on average still do not make what men make. Of course, there's exceptions. But you can't hang a woman making a third less than you with a bill if you asked her out to begin with. Many women will never offer to pay however, but if you have enough of a relationship that it's even semi-serious and are seeing each other a lot, this is a discussion you ought to be able to have or you don't have much of a relationship. If it's a sticking point between you, it's not the right person for you. But you can't ask a person out and then try to make them pay for it. They may literally have NO disposable income. 

And remember that historically, providing is a legit qualification to expect out of a man. If you end up having kids together, you need to know the man can and will be able to provide for you for however long you are incapacitated. 

My advice is this:
Men: If you ask her out, then you pay. 

Women, reciprocate and offer to at least buy a drink once in awhile and make breakfast or dinner. Bake cookies or muffins! It's costs very little and men LOVE it. You don't have to spend a lot to make breakfast or bake cookies to reciprocate. 

If you can afford it, ask HIM out and pay once in awhile. It's the thought that counts. You shouldn't have to be rigid. If you're having to keep score, it's not the right match. It shouldn't have to be 50/50. If you can't afford any of it, let him know and it's probably just not a match. 

When someone else is asking you out, as long as you've been dating awhile, you should get to help pick where you eat, but what you should never do is insist on going someplace expensive without talking about it first or offering to pay for your meal.

Men and women: Don't take first dates anywhere expensive. Get a drink or go to an ice cream parlor. Don't go to a fast food place, though. It needs to be more romantic than that. I have seen so many pissed off guys because they invested too much in a first date. That isn't a good idea if you're online dating. It's only a good idea if you already know the person in real life.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Women, reciprocate and offer to at least buy a drink once in awhile and make breakfast or dinner. Bake cookies or muffins! It's costs very little and men LOVE it. You don't have to spend a lot to make breakfast or bake cookies to reciprocate.


Thinking about my cooking... this made me laugh.
Granted, I'm not in the dating world.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

When I was dating, I was young and had very limited cooking skills. But I could make breakfast! Sometimes I just brought a bottle of champagne, mainly because I was a champagne lush but I did share.

you know even a toasted cheese sandwich tastes good after a night of drinking on a date.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> When I was dating, I was young and had very limited cooking skills. But I could make breakfast! Sometimes I just brought a bottle of champagne, mainly because I was a champagne lush but I did share.
> 
> *you know even a toasted cheese sandwich tastes good after a night of drinking on a date.*


...I do know... as Batman has done this for me!  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your point is about showing consideration (or maybe it _is_ about food)?

A while back, was at a party talking about food and cooking; friend starting paying out on me - giving me crap about my cooking skills. Like a good friend does. At the time, she was married. Very good at cooking. Knowing my husband does majority of the cooking between us, she asked what I brought to the table. I told her I had no idea! She told me I looked pretty. I should have given her the bird but laughed and said I hoped I offered more than that (for perspective, I'm not 'all that' by any means). One of the guys came over and sat next to us. Asked what we were talking about. She said 'We're working out what [hearts] brings to the table if she doesn't cook?' Within ear-shot of hubs, I asked them not to blow it for me as I was obviously getting the better end of the deal. The guy suggested I bring the vibe; which is to say, none of us knew what I brought. Friend did offer to teach me to cook... but didn't end up happening.

I shall make dinner for us this week haha. Poor guy.
Maybe a grilled cheese sandwich, too


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Oh I'm sure you bring plenty to the table. Personality is everything. When I was young I didn't have much time for cooking. When I was real young and during most of my dating in my twenties, I did not have hardly any money to feed anybody. Fortunately eggs and bread were cheap. It's ironic that most of my dating was it a. Of my life when I moved to a new town. and had to start all over after being fairly successful in the other town. 

So I was really broke. I couldn't eat out at all. But it didn't slow down my social life any. 

I had this one guy I was in love with that if I had been cooking for him he would have taken me a lot more seriously. He ended up marrying a woman who had had cooking lessons. He thought that was just great. She turned out to be a big mess but that was the big attraction at the time. I just didn't even have anything much except one Skillet and one saucepan back then. As soon as I got a better job, that was when I began cooking more and branching out. 

oh now that I think about it another one of my semi boyfriends that I was in love with also went and shacked up with this lady who was a chef. So yeah I probably could have benefited if I could have afforded to cook for them something other than breakfast.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Whereas the guy I (briefly) dated before Batman, was training to be a chef and cooked for us a few times.
My husband enjoys cooking... it's not really my bag... I've had moments where I'm into it but those moments are short-lived.
Still, you have inspired me with your posts (for this week, at least).


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