# Spousal Rape



## Ishtar (Jun 17, 2011)

This is a general topic that caught my interest when it was being debated on another forum and I thought it would be relevant to TAM.

Is it possible for an individual to rape their spouse? Is it not rape because there is an obligation to have sex in marriage? What are your personal feelings on the subject? Does it depend on the situation?

For example:

1. Mathew is a good guy and a loving husband and Father, he works hard and goes out of his way to make life for his family easy. One night Matthew desires sex with Sarah and as usual she refuses despite the fact that she is physically able to copulate. Matt insists on it by using his superior strength without really hurting her and she even comes. Is that rape?

2. Leo and Rebecca were two regular people with a good sex life until last year, when Rebecca was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately it was caught early and it looks like Rebecca is going to recover. Even though she is almost through with her treatments, she does not feel physically up to having sex. While making up after an argument about sex Leo starts making advances towards her. She is receptive until she starts to feel exhausted and tells Leo that she would rather have sex tomorrow when she will feel better. He talks her into to having sex. She does not struggle, but cries herself to sleep afterwards. Is that rape?

3. Beth and Rob have a good relationship with an okay sex life. Rob has always loved anal sex, but Beth has never let him like his past girlfriends did. He thinks anal sex will spice things up and that she will love it once she tries it. One day he just tries it anyway. She pleads for him to stop and says it hurts; he does not. She will not talk to him for 10 days afterwards. Is that rape?

I know I only used male examples, I was going to use a female one, but I am tired of writing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

in the army, they actually send us to two or three classes a year on rape. rape is defined as sex without consent. simple as that. if a male does not recieve verbal consent, or if the female is not capable of giving consent, he knowingly commits rape. it doesnt matter what the circumstances are, marriage or no marriage. as to your scenarios:
1) rape
she said no verbally and physicaly.

2) cant determine. if she consented then it isnt rape, but why is she crying herself to sleep? she said no at one point, but allowed herself to get talked into it... so now she feels guilty? would have to determine if she gave him verbal consent first. if so, she made a bad choice. not rape.

3) rape, absolutely no question. he took what was not offered to him by force. wouldnt you call that rape? not only that, he did it to someone who trusted him, reducing her to a mere object and severely damaging their relationship. not a very nice guy.


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## blissful (Nov 14, 2011)

yes, its rape. all 3. scenario 2 may be murky but she said no. he talked her into it. but he still knew that she didn't want to. so that's rape.

a spouse isn't "duty bound" or obligated to have sex with their partner. in the same way a spouse isn't obligated to be gainfully employed to support their family. if a person is happy to sit on their a$$ & live off welfare then him/ her being unemployed is not illegal. A person will be choose to be gainfully employed so as to improve their family's quality of life. in the same way a spouse can choose to have sex with their partner to improve the quality of their relationship. but he/ she is by no means obligated to have sex with them.

No means no, regardless of whether it is said once, half heartedly or if the spouse didn't really think the person meant it. it is a violation of somebody else & for a spouse to do it is even more disgusting.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm conflicted on #2, although Leo shouldn't have continued to press the sex issue once she indicated she was too tired. But he did and she went along with no resistance. The other two are hands down rape.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

1 and 3 are rape no doubt. 2 I don't believe so, if he bullied her into it than that would constitute rape to me, being a pest and talking her into it, not so much.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

honestly, i think they are all complete *******s. i only dont call #2 rape because i cite the defenition that the army puts out. its simply a standard to define guilt. all three are moraly bent.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

Examples 1 and 3 seem like rape, the wife did not consent and the husband still had sex with her. Example 2 likely isn't rape, the husband convinced her to consent. Unless he "talked her into it" in an abusively coercive manner it's really just very terrible sex. 

Examples like these are a great reminder of the importance of having a safe word. The question of consent becomes clear when there is a previously agreed method of explicitly withdrawing consent.


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## young_lady (Nov 29, 2011)

Here's another example (this happened to a friend of mine) what do you think

My friend and her husband were sharing a room on a houseboat with her parents. The beds were close enough to to reach out and touch. He started advances, and she pushed him away quietly but was afraid ofmaking noise and drawing more attention. He continued and completed the act. She never explicltly said no or made a fuss for fear of her parents overhearing. He laughed about it the next day wondering if her parents heard.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

if he were in the army and she filed a report, he would be going to prison for rape. he did not get verbal consent first. if she didnt view it as rape then it wasnt rape, as sexual assault is defined by the victim, not the perpetraitor. in this case i personaly would not call it rape, more like sex that was a bit outside her comfort zone. remember, rape is a negative act. if she did not feel raped then she wasnt. simple.


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## young_lady (Nov 29, 2011)

Well, I knew the guy well enough to believe the whole point was putting my friend in a position where he know she could not easily say no.

That is rape,IMHO.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

What is the point of this thread? In your examples, all were pretty much a clear case of one person not consenting to the physical advances. How on earth is this debatable? And suggesting that a woman is physically available to copulate, why because she has a hole??! I find this very offensive actually.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

young_lady said:


> Well, I knew the guy well enough to believe the whole point was putting my friend in a position where he know she could not easily say no.
> 
> That is rape,IMHO.


the Uniform Code of Military Justice would agree with you.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Lon said:


> What is the point of this thread? In your examples, all were pretty much a clear case of one person not consenting to the physical advances. How on earth is this debatable? And suggesting that a woman is physically available to copulate, why because she has a hole??! I find this very offensive actually.


Thank you. I was like wtf? ALL of them are rape regardless if somebody has the proper body parts. If consent isn't there or coerced, it is rape.....period.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

In my eyes all three examples are rape, including no.2 - in that instance he took adantage of her vulnerability by co-ercing her into submission, while knowing she physically (and obviously emotionally) couldn't go through with it. Rape.

young_lady, I believe it was also rape in your friend's instance as well. She didn't verbally say no because he didn't verbally ask. She did however indicate that she didn't want sex by pushing away his advances - he just took what he wanted anyway. Rape.


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## MNM (Nov 30, 2011)

I think rape in marriage and/or relationships happens a lot, maybe not as much as it once did but it does happen. What I find interesting is the second scenario. In prior relationships, I have "given in" to the annoying begging and had sex with a partner even when I wasn't in the mood or tired. I don't consider this rape. I think if I had said NO in a clear manner they would have backed off but some men have fragile egos so I found it easier to just go along and not start an argument. ha I wasn't upset by it, merely apathetic.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Lon said:


> What is the point of this thread? In your examples, all were pretty much a clear case of one person not consenting to the physical advances. How on earth is this debatable? And suggesting that a woman is physically available to copulate, why because she has a hole??! I find this very offensive actually.


I agree, but Im not offended

All three cases are rape. Case 2 is also a clear sign of rape (at least in Canada).


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## Ishtar (Jun 17, 2011)

I am just curious what people's opinions on this are...mine are very muddled and unsure.

I agree that anything that is not consensual is rape, but what exactly is consent? Mainly, does knowingly and freely consenting to being in a sexual relationship (marriage) mean one has automatically consented to sex? And what sex acts would that cover?

To me, getting married=consent to have sex, marriage is a sexual relationship and sex within marriage is generally expected. I do think it is not nice for a man to force himself on his wife, but is it rape? That is what I cannot figure out.

I think it is terrible to make your spouse have sex when they do not want to, but what about a sexless marriage? Does a wife not have an obligation to have sex with her husband and by shirking her duties she is hurting her marriage and her husband? Isn't she also in the wrong? But sometimes there are good reasons such as abuse for her not to have sex with him...

I like the idea that a spouses body is not solely theirs, how can you rape what is yours to begin with? 

Meh.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Ishtar said:


> I am just curious what people's opinions on this are...mine are very muddled and unsure.
> 
> I agree that anything that is not consensual is rape, but what exactly is consent? Mainly, does knowingly and freely consenting to being in a sexual relationship (marriage) mean one has automatically consented to sex? And what sex acts would that cover?
> 
> ...


I would like to think that being married to a man who thinks her body is his body and he can justify forcing himself on her would be reason enough why she wouldn't want to have sex with him and go running for the hills. But that's just me.


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## square1 (Oct 31, 2011)

Ishtar said:


> I am just curious what people's opinions on this are...mine are very muddled and unsure.
> 
> I agree that anything that is not consensual is rape, but what exactly is consent? Mainly, does knowingly and freely consenting to being in a sexual relationship (marriage) mean one has automatically consented to sex? And what sex acts would that cover?
> 
> ...


If one of the parties involved (male or female) says no and the other continues with the act forcing themselves onto the other for sex it is rape married or not. 

And in a marriage you make a vow to give yourself to your spouse and your spouse only but that doesn't mean they have the right to take sex from you whenever they want. If it was ok to do this within a marriage then there would be no sexless marriages cause the spouse not getting any would just take it regardless of what their spouse said/did. But there are consequences for rape even in a marriage if the one raped goes to the cops.


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## ClosedOff (Nov 30, 2011)

Ishtar said:


> I am just curious what people's opinions on this are...mine are very muddled and unsure.
> 
> I agree that anything that is not consensual is rape, but what exactly is consent? Mainly, does knowingly and freely consenting to being in a sexual relationship (marriage) mean one has automatically consented to sex? And what sex acts would that cover?
> 
> ...



If this is really true (in marriage sex is a "duty" and must be given at the other partner's whim) then I'd say it's a good thing most people aren't married these days! 

Honestly, just because you're married doesn't mean it's the army--they don't OWN you. You simply promise yourself to be faithful to them until death (or divorce)...that doesn't include being their personal sex slave.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

If its the wifes duty to have sex with her Husband, I would surmise its the Husbands duty to understand his wife, and treat his wife with love and respect to ensure she *wants* to follow through with her duty.

During vows you do give your body to your partner, but these vows are spoken under the guise of love and respect. Nobody who loves and respects their spouse will sexually force themselve upon the other. Therefore, if you force yoursel upon your spouse, its not coming from a place of love and respect, and the vow is broken.

Rape in Canada (and Im sure its pretty much the same in America.) If you do not give express verbal consent, without being enticed in anyway shape or form, it is rape.

Technically, when I come onto my wife, but she doesnt say anything, and we have wonderful sex, I give her 30 orgasm as per usual, she can still have me charged with rape. Given, it probably wouldnt go anywhere, as the police would see how bow legged she was, and the perma-grin on her face would be a pretty clear indication of my..... ego... But yes, legal rape happens all the time in marriage.


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## ClosedOff (Nov 30, 2011)

SockPuppet said:


> Technically, when I come onto my wife, but she doesnt say anything, and we have wonderful sex, I give her 30 orgasm as per usual, she can still have me charged with rape.


30 orgasms??? Typical guy, always stretching the truth.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Ishtar said:


> I am just curious what people's opinions on this are...mine are very muddled and unsure.
> 
> I agree that anything that is not consensual is rape, but what exactly is consent? Mainly, does knowingly and freely consenting to being in a sexual relationship (marriage) mean one has automatically consented to sex? And what sex acts would that cover?
> 
> ...


Being in a sexless marriage. IMO sex isn't worth it unless their is obvious consent. I would never force myself on my wife.. perhaps that's why its sexless in a way. I feel sex has to be totally consensual or else it loses something.

Perhaps my wife just listened to me...I told her exactly that.

I'm patient when sex returns at least it'll mean something.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Ishtar said:


> I like the idea that a spouses body is not solely theirs, how can you rape what is yours to begin with?
> 
> Meh.


and this is what I figured OP was alluding to, and why I found this line of questions and answers offensive. Marrying someone does not make them your sex toy, not your possession, not your servant and not your slave. The courts in all western countries have made this quite clear that marriage DOES NOT EQUAL consent to sex. And there is no need to try opening this argument. If you want sex, be a kind attractive man and earn consent.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I had an ex boyfriend who bullied me into sex all the time.

If I said no, he would badger me with pressure and "don't you love me?" If the pushiness didn't work, it would lead to verbal abuse (name calling) and constant complaining until I gave in. He wouldn't let me sleep until he got his rocks off.

During the sex, it was quite obvious that I was just letting him help himself. This didn't stop my ex from enjoying it...whenever I asked how he could like sex when I clearly didn't want it or enjoy it, this fool would get very indignant. Guess he didn't want to admit that he was thisclose to being a rapist.


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## CantePe (Oct 5, 2011)

Ishtar said:


> This is a general topic that caught my interest when it was being debated on another forum and I thought it would be relevant to TAM.
> 
> Is it possible for an individual to rape their spouse? Is it not rape because there is an obligation to have sex in marriage? What are your personal feelings on the subject? Does it depend on the situation?
> 
> ...


All three are rape. The second one I will explain.

The word no is no. Whether it is in mid thrust or before it. When someone (not just a woman, men too) says no or stop then it is a revocation of consent. Once consent has been revoked then ignored it is rape.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

In some societies being married is considered consent to sex by the woman. The man can force himself on his wife any time he wishes and there is nothing she can do about it. Of course the woman cannot force her husband into sex legally in these societies. 

Women are no longer owned by their husbands.

That is not how the law works in our society. It used to be, but not anymore.


Ishtar said:


> I like the idea that a spouses body is not solely theirs, how can you rape what is yours to begin with?


Slavery was outlawed a long time ago. While it’s often said that each spouse owns the other spouses body, it’s a metaphor meaning that each must be faithful to the other. It does not mean that one spouse has the right to abuse the other.

There are very good reasons why a person has the right to refuse sex in marriage. Your second example is a very good one. The woman is ill. She is on chemo which makes everyone who takes it feel sick. Yet her uncaring husband only worried about his own sex desires and not that fact that she was sick. That’s a very uncaring husband.

We often hear about sexless marriages in which it’s the wife who does not want sex. It seems that you are suggesting that in these cases a man should have the right to just force himself on her. What, she would just be there not involved, not enjoying it while he got off? Not much of a man is he?

Very often it is the husband who decided that he does not want sex anymore. This happens a lot more than people realize. So by your standards, the woman should have the right to demand that he give her sex anyway. I can think of lots of things that he could do for her even if he does not want it himself.

So are you also suggesting that a man who has no interest in sex MUST give his wife organisms regardless of how much he’s not into it? Or are you only suggesting that a wife has to let her husband use her body, even when she is ill, emotionally upset, etc?


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## Patricia B. Pina (Nov 22, 2011)

Ishtar said:


> This is a general topic that caught my interest when it was being debated on another forum and I thought it would be relevant to TAM.
> 
> Is it possible for an individual to rape their spouse? Is it not rape because there is an obligation to have sex in marriage? What are your personal feelings on the subject? Does it depend on the situation?
> 
> ...


'
It depend on the couple.

But it would say if you don't want it then it is rape


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## endoftether (Jan 2, 2014)

All are rape, period.

In all three examples they said no or that they did not want to. What difference is it really to use persuasion to get someone to do something they do not want to, or to use threats ?

We will end up at the she was asking for it discussion, probably.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't understand what kind of pathetic pos would insist on forcing themselves where they're not wanted, but that's me. I will not be where I'm not wanted; I'd much rather be alone and take care of myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*In Texas:


Case No. 1- Marital Rape
Case No. 2- Marital Rape, provided the Wife pushes the envelope and testifies.
Case No. 3- Marital Rape


And please keep in mind that the exclusionary rule of a wife not being able to testify against her husband, is strictly her call and not his!
*


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I never really understood how some men associate violence with sex and vice versa.
Some are so badly wired that they would even associate violence with love.

Don't understand either how a man could maintain an erection whilst forcing himself on a clearly uninterested woman , penetrate said woman and have sex till climax , whatever her relation to him, wife ,daughter , friend or stranger.
To be certain, I am fully aware of the connection between seduction , dominance and power exchanges between a sexually aggressive man and an adventurous woman who desires domination.
But there's a huge chasm between a woman wanting to be dominated , and a woman who doesn't want sex with you.

There is no " fine line " between consensual sex an rape.
Rape is rape .
Full stop.
And yes , it's all black & white.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

How many men "ask" for sex? You usually initiate the act and carry it on unless rejected.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Ishtar said:


> 2. Leo and Rebecca were two regular people with a good sex life until last year, when Rebecca was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately it was caught early and it looks like Rebecca is going to recover. Even though she is almost through with her treatments, she does not feel physically up to having sex. While making up after an argument about sex Leo starts making advances towards her. She is receptive until she starts to feel exhausted and tells Leo that she would rather have sex tomorrow when she will feel better. He talks her into to having sex. She does not struggle, but cries herself to sleep afterwards. Is that rape?


1 & 3 are definitely rape. I agree with the military's definition: sex without consent - even if it does not involve intercourse. 

Your wording on #2 is harder to define. If she say, "Ok, already, just get it over with," then even if he knew she did not want to, I would say she consented. 

I think it's SAFER for him to assume she does not consent. She could claim he raped her, and plenty of people would agree. However, a grown woman SHOULD be responsible for her choices. If she understands what he wants, she should understand the difference between "NO" and "YES" and should own her word choices.

Using Caribbean Man's example: A guy I was dating woke me up as he was pumping away. P*ssed me off seriously. I was quite clear about it when I told him to get off me and to NEVER try something like that again. He argued that if I loved him, I shouldn't have a problem with him using my body any time he wanted to, even if I was asleep. Now, I'm ok with being awakened by some inviting play, but I apparently needed to set that boundary, which I did. He wasn't happy about it, and kept trying to change my mind, but he did not cross that line again. If I was ambiguous and said, "Well, only if I've been drinking," then I don't have room to gripe if I had a beer and half before falling asleep, even if I meant "Only when I am passed out drunk."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

treyvion said:


> How many men "ask" for sex? You usually initiate the act and carry it on unless rejected.


Lol. Sometimes he asks, sometimes he just does. I never would have guessed not asking and just doing were considered marital rape.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, I'll be the odd one out. I think #1 is okay, and 2 & 3 are definitely rape. A woman should not be crying after sex. That indicates rape to me.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Sex is strictly a consentual, unimplied agreement between two willing partners ~ nothing more, nothing less!

Unless you have a unanimous agreement on consummating the act, then it shouldn't happen. And granted that one partner might attempt to make the necessary verbal or physical overtures, it must be met with full and equal reciprocity by the other partner!*


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)




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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lol! I did not even notice!


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

This is a very disturbing thread, looking for permission/justification for sexual assault. It should have been left in 2011. Or the dark ages.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If my wife bugs me to buy her a new car and she pesters me until I agree, is she guilty of robbery? This is the same as example #2. Rape is sex by force, coercion, or with someone incapable of giving consent.
If bugging someone about sex until they consent is rape, then bugging someone to buy something until they agree is robbery. Simple logic. Or, nagging one's husband until he performed some chore would be putting him in a condition of slavery. In all three examples we must assume that nagging or pestering someone is a form of force. I don't believe it is.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife bugs me to buy her a new car and she pesters me until I agree, is she guilty of robbery? This is the same as example #2. Rape is sex by force, coercion, or with someone incapable of giving consent.
> If bugging someone about sex until they consent is rape, then bugging someone to buy something until they agree is robbery. Simple logic. Or, nagging one's husband until he performed some chore would be putting him in a condition of slavery. In all three examples we must assume that nagging or pestering someone is a form of force. I don't believe it is.


In many relationships a slight physical coercion is used prior to the sex act. It's not like you go ask permission and in many of these if she got mad and angry feminist got in her ear, they can convince her that she's been getting raped all this time.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I know this is an old thread but decided to look back at my original comment. I am of the firm belief that marriage is not at all equal to permanent unretractable consent. However not sure what has changed in me since my original comment but example #2 is a little less black and white than it was when i first commented... To me at this moment it seems that "not wanting something" is not the same as "not consenting to something".

People consent to things we don't want all the time, sometimes due to coercion but sometimes as a matter of choice pertaining to our ulterior motives or the bigger picture. Coercion can be a dangerous force but i don't necessarily equate it to rape, though in emotionally abusive relationships it can be a form of abuse.

I think it is still the responsibility of adults to separate the things we are not consenting to from the things we are coerced into doing.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Sex is strictly a consentual, unimplied agreement between two willing partners ~ nothing more, nothing less!
> 
> Unless you have a unanimous agreement on consummating the act, then it shouldn't happen. And granted that one partner might attempt to make the necessary verbal or physical overtures, it must be met with full and equal reciprocity by the other partner!*



That is so ridiculous that I assume it's sarcasm.

In marriage, you have something known as "implied consent". It's not a "duty" to provide your partner with sex. But it means that in a normal marriage, you don't need clear, verbal permission from your spouse for every kiss or sex act, in order to defend yourself in court later on. It means that unless your partner says "no", or pushes you away, then you can assume in a loving relationship that you can proceed. After all, that's the primary reason for getting married, isn't it?

Some of the comments here sound ickily like this neurotic letter writer:

Dear Prudie: Is drunken sex with my husband a form of abuse?


Someone brought up the military's definition of rape. The military doesn't even know what their own definition of rape is. They have been so browbeaten by the media and by women in Congress that they are looking for rapists under every stone. Every year, we have more sexual assault/sexual harassment training than I can even count, and more than once I've heard the instructor say that if a woman has had ANYTHING to drink, even one drink (!) she can't consent to sex. 

Problem is, if a man has had one drink, then technically he can't consent to sex *either*, and so that whole definition goes out the window. Yet people keep trying to bring it back.


And a question for the group, just because I am curious. Am I the only one who thinks spousal rape simply shouldn't be the same crime as ordinary rape? I see the situation where a woman is raped by a stranger breaking into her home as multiple times worse than her being raped by your own husband (someone she's already been intimate with many times). Or is that just me?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> That is so ridiculous that I assume it's sarcasm.
> 
> In marriage, you have something known as "implied consent". It's not a "duty" to provide your partner with sex. But it means that in a normal marriage, you don't need clear, verbal permission from your spouse for every kiss or sex act, in order to defend yourself in court later on. It means that unless your partner says "no", or pushes you away, then you can assume in a loving relationship that you can proceed. After all, that's the primary reason for getting married, isn't it?
> 
> ...


As a woman I do think there is a terrible double standard regarding the ability of the two genders to consent while under the influence. Drunk women have no responsibility whatsoever, but somehow drunk men should still have good judgment; this really bothers me. Either both are accountable or neither are.
Regarding spousal rape, I think that forced sex by your spouse is just as bad; it poisons the relationship and I don't understand what decent man wants that. In some ways it's worse because it's done by someone that promised to love and cherish you; if you can't trust your hb who can you trust? Besides, if you have a halfway loving marriage it's meaningless, because no wife in that situation is going to call the police so what does it matter? And if she does, why would you want to stay married in a situation where you feel like you have to rape your wife and she can't stand you to the point she calls the police? Healthy marriages don't involve forced sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> *Healthy marriages* or relationships *don't involve forced sex.*


:iagree:

Well said, I just inserted an addendum in for you..

I'm having great difficulty figuring out how this question arose in the first place.
It is frightening to think of exactly what are the presumptions _behind_ the questions / scenarios.

The point is, in a civilized ,healthy relationship between a man and a woman, the question of " forced "or non consensual sex,

Simply does not arise.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Well said, I just inserted an addendum in for you..
> 
> ...


ITA. It has the air of an abusive, entitled scumbag that's trying to convince himself he's not so bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> If my wife bugs me to buy her a new car and she pesters me until I agree, is she guilty of robbery? This is the same as example #2. Rape is sex by force, coercion, or with someone incapable of giving consent.
> If bugging someone about sex until they consent is rape, then bugging someone to buy something until they agree is robbery. Simple logic. Or, nagging one's husband until he performed some chore would be putting him in a condition of slavery. In all three examples we must assume that nagging or pestering someone is a form of force. I don't believe it is.


it _is _ a form of force, it's just covert instead of overt.



Theseus said:


> That is so ridiculous that I assume it's sarcasm.
> 
> In marriage, you have something known as "implied consent". It's not a "duty" to provide your partner with sex. But it means that in a normal marriage, you don't need clear, verbal permission from your spouse for every kiss or sex act, in order to defend yourself in court later on. It means that unless your partner says "no", or pushes you away, then you can assume in a loving relationship that you can proceed. After all, that's the primary reason for getting married, isn't it?
> 
> ...


whether implied or expressed, consent is consent and sex without consent is rape.

are you trying to say that being raped by a spouse is less bad than being raped by a stranger?
I imagine they are both terrible, neither one worse than the other, and I cant even imagine why someone would argue that unless they were trying to justify raping their spouse.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I think we can all agree there is a huge difference between persuasion and unlawful violent force. If not, all telemarketers need to be locked up.


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## CherryOnTop (Jan 19, 2014)

Theseus said:


> And a question for the group, just because I am curious. Am I the only one who thinks spousal rape simply shouldn't be the same crime as ordinary rape? I see the situation where a woman is raped by a stranger breaking into her home as multiple times worse than her being raped by your own husband (someone she's already been intimate with many times). Or is that just me?


I've been in a marriage (still am) where spousal rape has occurred. And I have been raped in the "traditional" sense (14 years ago) by someone else. 

They were and are both equally disturbing to me. In different ways.

The first time, I was a virgin when it happened. It was someone I had just met that night. I had a complete emotional breakdown in the months that followed. It changed me permanently. It led me down a very bad path. It forever took away my assumption of safety. I have never, nor ever will, trust that "it can't happen to me" feeling we often have in youth. 

But I never had to see him again. I didn't share a life with him. I hadn't trusted him with my life. I hadn't thought of him as my best friend and protector. 

With my husband...whom I do love even now...those things *were* true. 

I know now that I am not safe even in my own home with the man I married. 

It *is* different. But both experiences are devastating in a dramatic way. 

I ask myself...if I *had* to choose...if I could delete one of these experiences?

I would delete the one with my husband. I love him. I don't want to hate him. I don't want to lose my marriage. In this case, if I hate my rapist, I lose my husband. I hate knowing that he would do that to me (and it was violent). I hate knowing that there is no sympathy for me...because I stay. I share in the culpability because I stay. I am guilty. In my first rape, nobody thought I was guilty of anything. At least I had people who felt some indignation about what happened. Not so now. 

I hate that I can say that I sleep with my rapist every night.


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## CherryOnTop (Jan 19, 2014)

As to the question, I believe I do have a moral and ethical compunction to have sex with my spouse with reasonable frequency and in a mutually satisfying way. That's essentially part of my marriage contract. 

However, when I got married, I did not forever sign away my right to ever say "no." My body is still my own. His is still his own. No one, even my husband, has a right to force himself inside me if I say no. If he does, he's a rapist.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Regarding spousal rape, I think that forced sex by your spouse is just as bad; it poisons the relationship and I don't understand what decent man wants that. In some ways it's worse because it's done by someone that promised to love and cherish you; if you can't trust your hb who can you trust?



I agree with all that, but I didn't ask which was worse to the victim, I just asked if they should be treated as the same crime. 

Obviously spousal rape poisons the relationship but you can't compare that because by definition you have zero relationship with the offender in a case of stranger rape.

I'm just wondering what people think the penalties should be. It's hard to find data on this, but after a fair amount of searching it seems that *8 years* is the average sentence for rape in the USA today. With time off for good behavior, someone could probably expect to serve 3-5 years of that. I'm just curious if the people on TAM, who believe rape is still rape, think that a person should also get the same 8 year prison sentence for spousal rape?


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## CherryOnTop (Jan 19, 2014)

Why would a spousal rape be deserving of a lesser sentence? I honestly don't understand why it would be, so that is a genuine question. If someone walks up to me and punches my face in, and I press charges...should the criminal penalty be different if it were a stranger who did it versus my husband? The crime is the same. Suggesting a rape perpetrated by a spouse is deserving of a lesser sentence also suggests that it's a lesser crime. It's not.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

CherryOnTop said:


> Why would a spousal rape be deserving of a lesser sentence? I honestly don't understand why it would be, so that is a genuine question.


Just some reasons off the top of my head, in the case of spousal rape, generally you don't have to worry about catching STDs, and pregnancy would generally be less of an issue, and frankly you are being forced to have sex with someone you are (theoretically) physically attracted to vs. someone who might be the most repulsive person ever. 

There is the very famous spousal rape scene in "Gone With the Wind":

_One of the most notorious and widely condemned scenes in Gone with the Wind is what the law today would define as "marital rape". The scene begins with Scarlett and Rhett at the bottom of the staircase, where he begins to kiss her, refusing to be told 'no' by the struggling and frightened Scarlett; Rhett overcomes her resistance and carries her up the stairs to the bedroom, where the audience is left in no doubt that she will "get what's coming to her". The next scene, the following morning, shows Scarlett glowing with barely suppressed sexual satisfaction; Rhett apologizes for his behavior, blaming it on his drinking._
Gone with the Wind (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many women consider that the most romantic part of the film. Should Rhett have gone to jail for that?



> _ If someone walks up to me and punches my face in, and I press charges...should the criminal penalty be different if it were a stranger who did it versus my husband? The crime is the same._


That's an interesting comparison but not quite apt. Sex is something that married people routinely do, punching each other in the face is not!


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Just some reasons off the top of my head, in the case of spousal rape, generally you don't have to worry about catching STDs, and pregnancy would generally be less of an issue, and frankly you are being forced to have sex with someone you are (theoretically) physically attracted to vs. someone who might be the most repulsive person ever.
> 
> There is the very famous spousal rape scene in "Gone With the Wind":
> 
> ...


He won't go to jail because he is the highly sought after Alpha. The same is true for highly sought after Alpha's in todays society such as Atheletes and men with similar levels of financial freedom.

Now if a regular working guy tries to do the same thing, he will get blamed on rape.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Theseus said:


> JThat's an interesting comparison but not quite apt. Sex is something that married people routinely do, punching each other in the face is not!


Rape and sex are _not _the same thing.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> Rape and sex are _not _the same thing.


Assault and punching are not necessarily the same thing either.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

My point is that rape is not something that married people routinely do. Rape is not sex.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

norajane said:


> My point is that rape is not something that married people routinely do. Rape is not sex.


:iagree:

Rape is not about sexual pleasure but about power and control.
Whether that rape is between two married persons or non married persons.
The bottom line is that it is a violation of another person's expressed will , personal space , body and sense of control.
That is what makes it disrespectful.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Jumping into a resurrected thread...



blissful said:


> a spouse isn't "duty bound" or obligated to have sex with their partner. in the same way a spouse isn't obligated to be gainfully employed to support their family.


Surprised that no one commented on this. You can very much be obligated to be gainfully employed, or otherwise provide money to your family. Just get divorced. In many cases, men are ordered to provide a standard of living to their ex-wives that they enjoyed while married, under threat of fines and jail time, regardless of the reason for the divorce.

I've got a scenario to add to the list.

Husband and Wife are having a tough time because the wife now wants .. and is having.. an open marriage, and divorce may be in future. The emotional roller coaster is in full swing. The couple has near hysterical sex, and during it the husband wants to try something the wife did with one of her new boyfriends. He asks her about it and she says yes. They proceed to get it on. He asks again her if she is ok with it. She says yes. They finish. In the post coital letdown, the husband has regrets and tells her that he doesn't think he can keep on doing this, and that maybe divorce is where they are headed. The wife then says "you raped me!"

Well... ?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

norajane said:


> My point is that rape is not something that married people routinely do. Rape is not sex.


You are really playing with nuances here. "Rape is not sex" is not totally accurate because rape always involves sex in some fashion (otherwise it would be another crime like assault or battery). 

Rape (definition):
1. the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

In spousal rape (or any rape) it is entirely possible for one person to genuinely believe she is a rape victim, while the other person honestly believes the sex was consensual (although such a situation is actually pretty rare). So in that situation, it was just sex from one person's point of view, but rape to the other.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Theseus said:


> .
> 
> *In spousal rape (or any rape) it is entirely possible for one person to genuinely believe she is a rape victim, while the other person honestly believes the sex was consensual (although such a situation is actually pretty rare). So in that situation, it was just sex from one person's point of view, but rape to the other.*


Come on,
How under heavens is it even possible for a man to think that he is NOT raping a woman, or that the sex is consensual with a woman whom he is having sex with, when she either clearly said no with her mouth or by her physical resistance to his sexual aggression?


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## CherryOnTop (Jan 19, 2014)

Theseus said:


> That's an interesting comparison but not quite apt. Sex is something that married people routinely do, punching each other in the face is not!


Sex is something married people routinely do. Rape isn't. The comparison is entirely apt.


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## CherryOnTop (Jan 19, 2014)

Theseus said:


> Just some reasons off the top of my head, in the case of spousal rape, generally you don't have to worry about catching STDs, and pregnancy would generally be less of an issue, and frankly you are being forced to have sex with someone you are (theoretically) physically attracted to vs. someone who might be the most repulsive person ever.
> 
> There is the very famous spousal rape scene in "Gone With the Wind":
> 
> ...


Why would it be less damaging to be raped if you thought the guy you were being raped was physically attractive? You don't want this man inside you. He forced himself inside you. The damage is the same whether he's hot or ugly. The crime is the same whether he's hot or ugly. 

Maybe hot people in general should just get lesser sentences for rape? Because it's not as traumatic to get raped by an attractive person? 

I don't think the likelihood of getting pregnant or STDs should effect sentencing either.

So maybe if you rape a sterile woman, you should get a lighter sentence...she doesn't have to worry about pregnancy. You're clean of STDs and hey, maybe she even knows that...you're friends...so if you rape her, less harm done? 



And Rhett...I love that movie. I don't think it's really relevant to this discussion though as it's based on the values of another time...and it's a movie that's made to manipulate us into romanticizing the encounter. Also, we don't see the actual act. We do see what leads up to the act. But we don't see if she ultimately consents. We only see her delighted the next day. So I really cannot comment significantly on that.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Come on,
> How under heavens is it even possible for a man to think that he is NOT raping a woman, or that the sex is consensual with a woman whom he is having sex with, when she either clearly said no with her mouth or by her physical resistance to his sexual aggression?


Because just like the character from gone with the wind, she is giving in to him under the throes of passion.

All this stuff has me scared now adays, safer getting it on tape and having them sign a disclaimer detailing the sex act.b


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

Why should this topic even be debated?

Marital rape is illegal--it's a third of all domestic violence cases; however, it usually goes unpunished. It is INSANELY hard to prove and all it amounts to is hearsay. Unless there is a third party or witnesses, there is normally no case. 

Like Theseus said.. marriage comes with an 'implied consent' consent to sex. A woman/man has a choice to say 'no' or push away etc. and if they don't try to use any of these available choices.. it can be merely 'implied' that that spouse wants to have sex also. Now, if she verbally/physically implies that she does not want to have sex, then yes--that is rape.

And to answer your question Theseus, there are states that do not consider marital rape as serious as other forms of rape. It is treated as a lesser crime. Plus, about 30 states have exemptions for when the H does not need to use force because his W is vulnerable.

At the end of the day.. people will say what they want but having enough evidence to get to a judge is rare. Normally, the motion to dismiss the complaint wins.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Come on,
> How under heavens is it even possible for a man to think that he is NOT raping a woman, or that the sex is consensual with a woman whom he is having sex with, when she either clearly said no with her mouth or by her physical resistance to his sexual aggression?


There are several ways. If he is very drunk, a man might misinterpret the woman's resistance for cries of passion, or might not even notice she is resisting. 

I have also seen women claim they were forced even though they never said no or resisted. They didn't resist because the claimed they were scared. 

But as I said, it would be rare for two people to honestly have to such opposing views toward the sex act, but it can happen.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

wise said:


> Why should this topic even be debated?
> 
> Marital rape is illegal--it's a third of all domestic violence cases; however, it usually goes unpunished. It is INSANELY hard to prove and all it amounts to is hearsay. Unless there is a third party or witnesses, there is normally no case.


I concur that it is hard to prove, but it is not hearsay.

Hearsay is when a third person is testifying what a first person said to a second person. It is inadmissible in court.

It would be direct testimony for the wife to testify about what happened, including what was said. It is up to the jury who's story the believe.


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## Aloner (Jan 21, 2014)

Caribbean Man said:


> Come on,
> How under heavens is it even possible for a man to think that he is NOT raping a woman, or that the sex is consensual with a woman whom he is having sex with, when she either clearly said no with her mouth or by her physical resistance to his sexual aggression?


They're not using the same definition as rape as you. It's "social justice" terminology. You don't have to say no for it to be rape, it's just a lack of saying yes. Sex without consent is rape, therefore even if both spouses are eager and want it but neither of them explicitly said "Do you want to have sex" it can be defined as rape by them.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

If we're going to include all cases of one spouse talking the other into a sexual act to which she originally said no, then how is a married couple of differing sexual appetites ever to make any progress in finding a common ground? 

"Let's do XYZ "
"No, I don't think I'd like that".
"Aw, c'mon, it'll be fun, I'll be gentle - YOLO"
"I don't know. Sounds kind of icky to me"
"Try it once and see if you don't like it. The we can discuss it afterwards"
"Oh well, OK. For you."

Bang - consent obtained through coercion. Overnight in the lockup, sexual offender and rape charges.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Cletus said:


> If we're going to include all cases of one spouse talking the other into a sexual act to which she originally said no, then how is a married couple of differing sexual appetites ever to make any progress in finding a common ground?
> 
> "Let's do XYZ "
> "No, I don't think I'd like that".
> ...


In most peoples sexual lives, they were trying things they didn' t know they wanted to do before. So it was a "coercion" at some point. They may have found they liked it or not.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

treyvion said:


> In most peoples sexual lives, they were trying things they didn' t know they wanted to do before. So it was a "coercion" at some point. They may have found they liked it or not.


Were they then a victim of spousal rape? 

Seems a lot of folks here would say the answer to that question is yes.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Were they then a victim of spousal rape?
> 
> Seems a lot of folks here would say the answer to that question is yes.


If they were talked into it over a period of time and years? NO!

This is pretty NORMAL. For a married to get a sex act 5 years later that she/he wasn't doing. Over the years it was mentioned that it would be nice, and one day they decided to try it.

Of course many people here would bash someone being talked into something they didn't know they want to do. But it's a normal way it's done.

Most people let their friends talk them into things, but not their spouse?


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## Rev. Clonn (Nov 11, 2013)

Sorry, trying to process this. 
What I keep seeing is "if she says no, before, during or after any sexual act, then its rape" :scratchhead:
I say She because men are presumed to give consent by erection. also Rape is often termed to require penetration.
So rape is entirely defined by the "victim".
I seem to remember women yelling "stop raping me with your eyes" at the Slvt walks not too long ago.

As far as rape in marriage goes, I would have to agree if she is crying or resisting, when not role playing, then something is wrong and they should stop and figure it out.
my .02 worth


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Or my personal favorite. A man and woman are both intoxicated. They have sex. No resistance or saying "no". 

Woman says she doesn't remember, bam! Its rape. And why? Because her boyfriend or husband found out.

If they were both intoxicated, then perhaps she raped him??


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Ishtar said:


> This is a general topic that caught my interest when it was being debated on another forum and I thought it would be relevant to TAM.
> 
> Is it possible for an individual to rape their spouse? Is it not rape because there is an obligation to have sex in marriage? What are your personal feelings on the subject? Does it depend on the situation?


Of course it's possible for an individual to rape their spouse. What kind of a question is that?

That question suggests that non-consensual sex with a woman is rape...until you are married.



Ishtar said:


> For example:
> 
> 1. Mathew is a good guy and a loving husband and Father, he works hard and goes out of his way to make life for his family easy. One night Matthew desires sex with Sarah and as usual she refuses despite the fact that she is physically able to copulate. *Matt insists on it by using his superior strength* without really hurting her and she even comes. Is that rape?


Rape. 
So you are asking "If she comes, is it rape?"



Ishtar said:


> 2. Leo and Rebecca were two regular people with a good sex life until last year, when Rebecca was diagnosed with breast cancer. Fortunately it was caught early and it looks like Rebecca is going to recover. Even though she is almost through with her treatments, she does not feel physically up to having sex. While making up after an argument about sex Leo starts making advances towards her. She is receptive until she starts to feel exhausted and tells Leo that she would rather have sex tomorrow when she will feel better. He talks her into to having sex. She does not struggle, but cries herself to sleep afterwards. Is that rape?


Is this the curve ball? If she was firm and said no, and he physically "took her" anyways, than it's rape. If she just gave in, and let him jerkoff inside her to shut him up so she could get some sleep, it's not rape. 



Ishtar said:


> 3. Beth and Rob have a good relationship with an okay sex life. Rob has always loved anal sex, but Beth has never let him like his past girlfriends did. He thinks anal sex will spice things up and that she will love it once she tries it. One day he just tries it anyway. She pleads for him to stop and says it hurts; he does not. She will not talk to him for 10 days afterwards. Is that rape?.


Are you for real? Ya, it's rape.

What part of "no" or "stop" or "you're hurting me" are you missing?


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## solvency7 (Jun 15, 2013)

simple answer,it is if she doesnt seem pleased. its a generic answer but why the hell would you want to do it with someone who doesnt want to and seems miserable about it all,as for a comment on the first page,there is no obligation to have sex, who told you that s%%t lol


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## bob1471 (Dec 27, 2013)

1 and 3 - deffo.

2. No way in a million years. 'Talked her into it'. Originally it was no then consent was given. Not nice way to do it but consent was still given.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

bob1471 said:


> 1 and 3 - deffo.
> 
> 2. No way in a million years. 'Talked her into it'. Originally it was no then consent was given. Not nice way to do it but consent was still given.


After re-reading this, #2 is definately not rape. He talked her into it, she didn't really wanted to but she did it. She did not resist and he did not threaten her or take it from her.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

I just have to ask - who sits around and ponders these questions and scenarios as a "what if?"

If you have to ask yourself if what you are doing other people (or the law) might consider rape, you need to really question what you are doing with your life.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Allow me to edit your scenarios down to the basics.



Ishtar said:


> ...
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes

So, yes. The blurred lines that exist are when a woman wants sex, then in the morning regrets it.
- no

Woman has rape fantasies and wants to play them out, she says no, but becomes annoyed if he stops.
- no


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Allow me to edit your scenarios down to the basics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


#2 is not rape. It's like your wife convinced you to take out the trash, when you just got thru the door and you just KNEW you were going to sit down and do nothing for a while. And painfully, you got out of your desired routine and took out the trash.

He did not force, or threaten her into sex, but talked her into it.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> So, yes. The blurred lines that exist are when a woman wants sex, then in the morning regrets it.
> - no
> 
> Woman has rape fantasies and wants to play them out, she says no, but becomes annoyed if he stops.
> - no


Or both are drunk, have sex, both wake up not remembering much. Is that rape? If so, can a man say he was raped since they were both drunk?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Or both are drunk, have sex, both wake up not remembering much. Is that rape? If so, can a man say he was raped since they were both drunk?


*I know that in Texas, the rape law was changed so that a woman could also be charged with raping a man.

And since it's been so damn long since I've really had any, I guess I'm greatly like the antithesis of that horny old spinster, Maude Frickert.*










*"I'm Just A Horny Old Woman!"*


*Why I think that I'd literally give my eye teeth for some fine looking gal to break and enter my premises, and then to have her way with me!

And all that I can really say is that if she did a good-enough job, I could never see fit to ever press charges!*


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I know, I get what you are saying. I just frosts me that when 2 people are drunk and neither of them can remember much, and consent was neither given or denied, then all of a sudden the guy becomes a rapist. I think that is just bullsh*t.

Its going to have to come to this: Love Contract | Chappelle's Show | Comedy Central | PopScreen


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