# At least I know I'm a fool



## Foolish Man

First I have to say, thank you so much for this very informative forum. DDay was less than a week ago and I found this place yesterday. The wealth of information helped me try and get my feet under me and prepared me to deal with more truth.

I thought much of what I read was cynical and bitter but I read and understood. After confronting my WW six days ago, I had to wait a day while she made up her mind. First she didn't want to try to R but then decided she did. I provided her with some printouts from Peggy and Glass and told her that it would require honesty. If I hadn't read here I would have been totally refloored by the fact she continued lying. I jumped to reality and decided to check her google search history. I found the EA she first claimed and later said, "we didn't have sex" and "when we fooled around I felt so bad I had to stop" was planned with a momentary concern about STDs and had progressed to wedding plans. She had emailed the OM a picture of the wedding ring she had picked out. She had searched culturally appropriate ways to please her OM. She had searched for sex positions and cheap hotels. She told me after stating she wanted to R and that she was trying to rebuild trust that she had intended to end the A. She texted him "only you" sexual messages the day before DDay. With a little thought I recognized the abrupt mood changes, the blame shifting and the gaslighting. She said it had been going on several months and then said 5 months. I found it had been over 9 months.

Like the fool I am I confronted again, to receive another claim to sincerely want to R. With claims of not realizing it had been that long, but 9 months ago we moved. She just couldn't remember that it had been since before we moved and that was 9 months ago. She claimed it wasn't physical at first but her STD searches were 9 months ago.

Just feeling like a total idiot sitting here discussing R with her now. FML...


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## SecondTime'Round

Is the other man married?


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## Foolish Man

I do not think the OM is married.


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## Lostinthought61

So... she keeps lying what kind of trust can you build a R with


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## Foolish Man

Well here in FL you can fill out the dissolution of marriage forms online. I got to the part where you pay for the service and she said she was going to the emergency room so she wouldn't kill herself. She backed off and insisted I had made a decision. I explained nothing was final until the papers are signed and filed with the court and that I was making it completely clear that I was not going to tolerate any further dishonesty or any further contact. She wrote out the NC contract. She has said she agrees to those conditions.

Still feeling like a fool.


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## Daniel.

Sex Positions+Cheap Hotels+STD = Physical
There's no way that this affair hasn't reached that phase yet

You are not a fool for trying to trust her but you will be if you choose R while she keeps lying through her teeth. What really threw me off is the wedding ring thing, who the hell do that while they are still married to other person ??


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## PhillyGuy13

Did she write you out a timeline of the affair? As much detail as you want?

She only seems to tangently admit to what you have found online. That's not honesty.

"Off to the ER so I don't kill myself!" Boy talk about laying on a gullt trip. I would have driven her there personally and then changed the locks at home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

I know it has become a PA. She has admitted to oral sex, but in FL that isn't grounds and I have no concrete proof anyway. The wedding ring thing hit me pretty hard too. Good thing I had read about the Fog here. I think she has some level of mental dysfunction though that is pretty close to what anyone would call crazy. She had started a secret savings account and claims it was for us to take a vacation. She said she was planning on ending it but the day before DDay she texted her OM, "only you can eat me, nibble me, stroke me..." didn't get the full text on recovery but that sure doesn't sound like someone planning on ending anything. She admitted the text when I restored it to her phone and confronted her, but still maintains she was intending on ending the A. I am so devastated and trying to make sense of any of this is so painful and hard. But I realize I am just being a fool. If I read this posted by someone else I would say DUH!


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## GusPolinski

How long have you been married?

And what did you mean by "culturally appropriate ways to please her OM"?


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## Foolish Man

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Did she write you out a timeline of the affair? As much detail as you want?
> 
> She only seems to tangently admit to what you have found online. That's not honesty.
> 
> "Off to the ER so I don't kill myself!" Boy talk about laying on a gullt trip. I would have driven her there personally and then changed the locks at home.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Timeline with detail. No I hadn't asked for it. Didn't really want to hear the details (wasn't as bad as imagining once I went through her google history and found out). On top of that she claims her mental capacity doesn't allow her to remember. She does have epilepsy and some damage from heavy medications when very young.

Tangetially, yes that is why I am feeling all the more the fool. She admits to what I have caught her at but tries to minimize (did I read about that too) and obfuscate.

Yeah she has a special way of manipulating (again seems like I read about that here) me with her, "I'm such a terrible person I don't deserve another chance, I don't deserve anything...blah, blah, blah" When I know she has serious self esteem issues. I can't believe I keep falling for it, 180 is a little harder than it seems. The fool that I am doesn't want to see her ego integrity destroyed and thinks that she needs to maintain some self worth and sense of self if she is going to be able to do the work to R. God I feel like such an idiot.


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## Foolish Man

GusPolinski said:


> How long have you been married?
> 
> And what did you mean by "culturally appropriate ways to please her OM"?


12 years.

Searched repeatedly for "what a Jamaican man seeks/likes/wants etc"


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## GusPolinski

Foolish Man said:


> 12 years.


Any kids? Start talking to a lawyer either way. Find out what the threshold is w/ respect to permanent alimony. In CA it's 10 years of marriage.



Foolish Man said:


> Searched repeatedly for "what a Jamaican man seeks/likes/wants etc"


Ah. Weird.


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## lifeistooshort

You know what I tell other women whose men play the suicide card? It's the ultimate manipulation tactic of a selfish person. 

You're wasting your time with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

GusPolinski said:


> Any kids? Start talking to a lawyer either way. Find out what the threshold is w/ respect to permanent alimony. In CA it's 10 years of marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. Weird.


She will soon be in a position to make as much money as I do. I suppose the lawyer thing is a good idea. At this point when I discuss D with her she is willing to agree to any reasonable/favorable to me terms. I know I have read here many times that all goes out the window when it actually goes down...

Weird yeah. Hurts to see the effort she put into trying to please her OM, while I have gotten nothing at all for years. Yeah I'm that kind of fool, been sticking it out hoping one of the many things (including her specific suggestions) I tried would work or she would heal from the pain of our premarriage termination.


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## GusPolinski

Foolish Man said:


> She will soon be in a position to make as much money as I do. I suppose the lawyer thing is a good idea. At this point when I discuss D with her she is willing to agree to any reasonable/favorable to me terms. I know *I have read here many times that all goes out the window when it actually goes down...*


Mitigate that by keeping things as civil as possible.



Foolish Man said:


> Weird yeah. Hurts to see the effort she put into trying to please her OM, while I have gotten nothing at all for years. Yeah I'm that kind of fool, been sticking it out hoping one of the many things (including her specific suggestions) I tried would work or she would heal from the pain of *our premarriage termination*.


Just curious...were the two of you in full agreement w/ respect to the decision to terminate? Was one party pushing for it more than the other? Whose idea was it? What was the reason for it?

No judgement, just wondering about the impact that it may have had on your relationship.


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## jsmart

Foolish Man said:


> I know it has become a PA. She has admitted to oral sex, but in FL that isn't grounds and I have no concrete proof anyway. *The wedding ring thing hit me pretty hard* too. Good thing I had read about the Fog here. I think she has some level of mental dysfunction though that is pretty close to what anyone would call crazy. *She had started a secret savings account* and claims it was for us to take a vacation. She said she was planning on ending it but the day before DDay she texted her OM, "*only you can eat me, nibble me, stroke me.*.." didn't get the full text on recovery but that sure doesn't sound like someone planning on ending anything. She admitted the text when I restored it to her phone and confronted her, but still maintains she was intending on ending the A. I am so devastated and trying to make sense of any of this is so painful and hard. But I realize I am just being a fool. If I read this posted by someone else I would say DUH!


Sorry about what you're going through but you came to the right place. The folks on this forum have read it all and can guide you in either direction you decide on. 

From what you discovered, that PA is really deep and sounds like she was reassuring POS that he was number one. In affairs like that, WWs don't usually let go of POS. You have to be watchful of it going further underground. 

Only way forward is going to be a serious *Shock and Awe campaign.* If you want to do an R you have to charge hard in opposite direction. I know it's counter intuitive but woman only respond to strength. Have her served at work with it stating adultery. Even in a no fault state. Exposed to her family and friends. Do a 180 in how you deal with her to start pulling your heart away from her. Hit the gym HARD, get wardrobe, hair style, and overall grooming to next level.

She may come around if she see's the strong man she'll lose but if you start to nice her, rug sweep or dither on course of action I guarantee she will be back in POS' bed so fast.


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## MattMatt

Oh, no. Is this Chris and White Rose territory? I think it might be.

You are not the fool. She is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13

I can see clearly now that Jamaican men like what all men like. BJs.

Have you spoken with a lawyer? Sometimes with the grease of a good attorney a settlement can be worked out. Especially if you have evidence of oral. Can't believe that's not enough, for the law.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hookares

Suicide?
Do you really think she would care if it was you who was threatening to take the plunge?
You have nothing to save in this union.


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## Forest

Foolish Man said:


> She said she was planning on ending it but the day before DDay she texted her OM, "only you can eat me, nibble me, stroke me..." didn't


She's getting off being the center of attention like a HS tease. Per the normal cheater's script its "me, me, me." Can't get enough adulation, and is currently on her attention high.

Until she is snapped out of her ego-driven self gratification phase, nothing is going to work with her.


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## MattMatt

Why would anyone search on STDS? They had unprotected sex and developed a worrisome symptom or two.

You need to be tested for STDS and HIV ***NOW***. Do not let your wife play Cheater's Roulette with your health or your life. Sorry. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aine

Foolish Man said:


> First I have to say, thank you so much for this very informative forum. DDay was less than a week ago and I found this place yesterday. The wealth of information helped me try and get my feet under me and prepared me to deal with more truth.
> 
> I thought much of what I read was cynical and bitter but I read and understood. After confronting my WW six days ago, I had to wait a day while she made up her mind. First she didn't want to try to R but then decided she did. I provided her with some printouts from Peggy and Glass and told her that it would require honesty. If I hadn't read here I would have been totally refloored by the fact she continued lying. I jumped to reality and decided to check her google search history. I found the EA she first claimed and later said, "we didn't have sex" and "when we fooled around I felt so bad I had to stop" was planned with a momentary concern about STDs and had progressed to wedding plans. She had emailed the OM a picture of the wedding ring she had picked out. She had searched culturally appropriate ways to please her OM. She had searched for sex positions and cheap hotels. She told me after stating she wanted to R and that she was trying to rebuild trust that she had intended to end the A. She texted him "only you" sexual messages the day before DDay. With a little thought I recognized the abrupt mood changes, the blame shifting and the gaslighting. She said it had been going on several months and then said 5 months. I found it had been over 9 months.
> 
> Like the fool I am I confronted again, to receive another claim to sincerely want to R. With claims of not realizing it had been that long, but 9 months ago we moved. She just couldn't remember that it had been since before we moved and that was 9 months ago. She claimed it wasn't physical at first but her STD searches were 9 months ago.
> 
> Just feeling like a total idiot sitting here discussing R with her now. FML...


So sorry to hear you are in this situation. I agree with JSmart, you need to go hard on her, do the 180 big time, get the papers ready (it's not over till it's over) and tell her you are not messing anymore. If she threatens suicide, tell her go ahead, you have to show you don't care and need time to process what she has done and if she is not ok with that, that is her problem. She sounds selfish and unconcerned about what she has done to you, spend the time taking care of yourself not her, she made her bed, now let her deal with it.


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## ThePheonix

Foolish Man said:


> She will soon be in a position to make as much money as I do. I suppose the lawyer thing is a good idea. At this point when I discuss D with her she is willing to agree to any reasonable/favorable to me terms. I know I have read here many times that all goes out the window when it actually goes down...


Ya, getting a lawyer ASAP is the smart thing to do. You keep calling yourself a fool because your actions of trying to salvage this relationship ares inconsistent with your common sense that's telling you your history. The saving account is her traveling money when she gets her ducks in a row. If this chick cared about you, other than a place to perch, she wouldn't be using you like a hotel room, or some other place to crash, on her Jamaican vacation. Time to replace her with some girl that gives a shid. Keeping her is like having a $250k mortgage on a $25,000 mobile home in a trailer park.


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## ArmyofJuan

Foolish Man said:


> After confronting my WW six days ago, I had to wait a day *while she made up her mind*. First she didn't want to try to R but then decided she did.


I want to pick on this for a sec.

This is backwards thinking, she cheated so why would you let her make the decision to R or not? Why give her all the control when she back-stabbed you?

This is the wrong approach and a recipe for failure.

What she did was a justification for a divorce, she broke her vows so you are now in a position to end the marriage because of her. YOU determine whether she is worth R or not and she has to convince you to R, NOT the other way around. Your first reaction should be divorce until such time she convinces you to put it on hold or stop. If she doesn't then you need to divorce, its pointless to force someone to stay with you if they don't want to (for the right reasons that is).


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## Nomorebeans

Sorry you're going through this.

I'm in Florida, too. It is a "No Fault" state - there is no suing for divorce on any grounds - it's all split 50-50 regardless of cause.

I'd love to throw the book at my STBXH on some days, because he had a PA he lied about until D-Day in February - it had been going on since the previous September. Now, he wants to be with her. There is no desire on his part for R. We did not have a terrible marriage, but he is "in love" with her. We have a 13-year-old son, who we plan to tell this weekend when his FSA tests are over. Fun times.

I don't think I could R with him, though, even if he wanted to, and I'm not just saying that out of sour grapes. The level of betrayal is similar - he continued to lie after D-Day, as well. Not about ending it and wanting to R, but about how serious (or not) it was. Then I found texts with "love you"s and "need you"s, and 4-5 phone calls a day every day (she is currently in another state where he met her), and he admitted they'd already talked about marriage before I even found out about her.

Really not trying to say this out of bitterness, but I think it would be best for you to start considering that you're really going to need to move on with your life without her. STBXH is leaving behind a 25-year marriage and a young son, so believe me, I know how hard it is to face that what you thought you had is over. Even if she were to really end it with this guy, can you ever trust her again? Can you ever put the sex and ring texts you know she sent him behind you?

You sound like an intelligent, thoughtful person. No one deserves to be treated like this in a marriage, least of all you.


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## Foolish Man

GusPolinski said:


> Mitigate that by keeping things as civil as possible.
> 
> Just curious...were the two of you in full agreement w/ respect to the decision to terminate? Was one party pushing for it more than the other? Whose idea was it? What was the reason for it?
> 
> No judgement, just wondering about the impact that it may have had on your relationship.


It was a mutual agreement. It was her/both of our idea. We were not in a good financial position, we were not married. It had the impact of killing the sexual aspect of our relationship.


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## Foolish Man

Forest said:


> She's getting off being the center of attention like a HS tease. Per the normal cheater's script its "me, me, me." Can't get enough adulation, and is currently on her attention high.
> 
> Until she is snapped out of her ego-driven self gratification phase, nothing is going to work with her.


I fear you have hit the nail on the head. She has turned this into all about her. I just don't feel strong enough to do a 180 and I know she is fragile. I care about her deeply and as much as I feel vengeful and angry, I don't want to see her destroyed. She is clearly suffering and has deep seated self esteem issues. I just don't know how I can do this. I am a deeply caring person and she is the one I care about the most. I guess I am foolishly trying to find some middleground between 180 and nicing.


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## Foolish Man

ArmyofJuan said:


> I want to pick on this for a sec.
> 
> This is backwards thinking, she cheated so why would you let her make the decision to R or not? Why give her all the control when she back-stabbed you?
> 
> This is the wrong approach and a recipe for failure.
> 
> What she did was a justification for a divorce, she broke her vows so you are not in a position to end the marriage because of her. YOU determine whether she is worth R or not and she has to convince you to R, NOT the other way around. Your first reaction should be divorce until such time she convinces you to put it on hold or stop. If she doesn't then you need to divorce, its pointless to force someone to stay with you if they don't want to (for the right reasons that is).


I am afraid you are right. I think out of fear, loneliness and pain I have been applying pressure to get her to decide to R. Her behavior has not shown that she is putting real effort into it. The continued lying and minimizing. The turning it to about her, how bad she is and how she deserves nothing. I suspect she continues to lie. She says she never did go to a hotel, but the text from her OM said, "I dreamed about you at *the hotel* last night." She continues to insist, "it never involved penetration" but she was picking out a wedding ring and dress. She did write the NC contract and has left to mail it and pack up and leave her office. I sit here not having slept in 36 hours waiting and wondering if that is what she is doing or if she is going back to her OM. Beyond that I suspect next time I go to work I will come home to find she has packed what she needs and left. How am I supposed to find the strength to 180 in this condition, under these circumstances? I sit like a fool waiting to see if she is genuinely trying to R or just stringing me along. Would she even have the balls to call and say she wasn't coming back today? Does she have the strength to get what she needs together and leave when I go back to work mid next week? Why do I have to sit here in agony with nothing but crushing doubt?


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

She took advantage of you trust. You were duped. You ARE NOT a "fool". Stop saying and thinking that. This is a big club that none of us ever wanted to be a member in

She upset because A)She got caught and B)It has effected her ability to to continue to meet and have sex with the OM.

Any hurt you're suffering is much further down her list of the reasons why shes upset.

She's gone my friend and it's been that way for months now. Yes, she's "in the fog", but even if she were to snap out of it, the level that this affair has gotten to has changed everything.

You'll NEVER be able to trust her again. If you R I give it less than 2 years before she's either back in contact with this OM, or she's found another OM. You don't want to believe this right now, but in the back of your mind you know that it's the most likey long term outcome.

Her telling him that he's the on one that can preform cunnilingus on her tells me that they not only had regular sex, they had it on a regular basis. This has gone MUCH deeper than she's tried lead you to believe it has.

If she mentions suicide again, call 911. I think she's just using it as a plot to dupe you yet again, but don't take the risk. If you don't and she does try, or succed in killing herself, you feel the effects of not calling the rest of your life.


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## Foolish Man

MattMatt said:


> Why would anyone search on STDS? They had unprotected sex and developed a worrisome symptom or two.
> 
> You need to be tested for STDS and HIV ***NOW***. Do not let your wife play Cheater's Roulette with your health or your life. Sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't really have to much to worry about there as we haven't had sex in more than a year. I did tell her she needed to get checked immediately.


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## azteca1986

The only 180 you should be thinking about is in your insistence on trying to R. I'm sorry.



Foolish Man said:


> She continues to insist, "it never involved penetration" but she was picking out a wedding ring and dress.


Sometimes things are too far gone to get a marriage back on track.

Please see a lawyer to find out where you stand.


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## PhillyGuy13

Not to pee in your Cheerios. But you should mail the letter yourself, or do it together. In case she mistakes a trash can for a mail box.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

aine said:


> So sorry to hear you are in this situation. I agree with JSmart, you need to go hard on her, do the 180 big time, get the papers ready (it's not over till it's over) and tell her you are not messing anymore. If she threatens suicide, tell her go ahead, you have to show you don't care and need time to process what she has done and if she is not ok with that, that is her problem. She sounds selfish and unconcerned about what she has done to you, spend the time taking care of yourself not her, she made her bed, now let her deal with it.


I just don't have the strength or hardness of heart to 180 right now. I'd never tell someone who threatened suicide to go ahead that is just wrong because of my training and experience. I can't show her I don't care because I do. She certainly has been and continues to be selfish and has shown very much in the way of real concern about what she has done to me. I am working up the strength to have the D paperwork filled out and ready. I really think that is what I need to do. If she has the balls to call and say she doesn't want to R then I might be able to have her sign and go to the court with me right then. In FL you can do dissolution with mutual agreement but I would have to do up a financial agreement. We have a fair amount of financial business but not too much. How am I supposed to get up the strength and mental wherewithal to go through our credit cards, car loan, student loans and bank accounts, do an accounting and write up an agreement?


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## dental

This whole thread tells me your WW is not interested in you anymore romantically for a long time. Even long before your year long lack of sex. Your unity is an illusion. End it, and move on with your life. This time without fear.


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## Foolish Man

hookares said:


> Suicide?
> Do you really think she would care if it was you who was threatening to take the plunge?
> You have nothing to save in this union.


She has used that as one of her excuses/reasons for not telling me. She says she has been worried about me for years and was afraid I might hurt myself. I wonder if that was a concern when she was picking out a wedding dress, ring and flowers?


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## lifeistooshort

I guess, given what you've said, I'm not surewht she'd want to reconcile with you. Unless she's not sure Jamaica man is going to work out. I guess you'll do to pay bills in the meantime. 

Terminating a pregnancy is tough on a woman, but if it was a mutual decision she can't blame you. I don't know, maybe she feels like you agreeing to it destroyed her image of you as a protector. Just speculating of course. 

Jamaica man isn't going to solve her issues, but I am having trouble seeing what exactly you have to save.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

Foolish Man said:


> She has used that as one of her excuses/reasons for not telling me. She says she has been worried about me for years and was afraid I might hurt myself. I wonder if that was a concern when she was picking out a wedding dress, ring and flowers?


And that is proof of how full of sh1t she is. She claims to be worried about you hurting yourself, but the first thing she did was talk about going to the hospital so she wouldn't hurt herself in order to manipulate you. Clearly it worked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

Nomorebeans said:


> Sorry you're going through this.
> 
> I'm in Florida, too. It is a "No Fault" state - there is no suing for divorce on any grounds - it's all split 50-50 regardless of cause.
> 
> I'd love to throw the book at my STBXH on some days, because he had a PA he lied about until D-Day in February - it had been going on since the previous September. Now, he wants to be with her. There is no desire on his part for R. We did not have a terrible marriage, but he is "in love" with her. We have a 13-year-old son, who we plan to tell this weekend when his FSA tests are over. Fun times.
> 
> I don't think I could R with him, though, even if he wanted to, and I'm not just saying that out of sour grapes. The level of betrayal is similar - he continued to lie after D-Day, as well. Not about ending it and wanting to R, but about how serious (or not) it was. Then I found texts with "love you"s and "need you"s, and 4-5 phone calls a day every day (she is currently in another state where he met her), and he admitted they'd already talked about marriage before I even found out about her.
> 
> Really not trying to say this out of bitterness, but I think it would be best for you to start considering that you're really going to need to move on with your life without her. STBXH is leaving behind a 25-year marriage and a young son, so believe me, I know how hard it is to face that what you thought you had is over. Even if she were to really end it with this guy, can you ever trust her again? Can you ever put the sex and ring texts you know she sent him behind you?
> 
> You sound like an intelligent, thoughtful person. No one deserves to be treated like this in a marriage, least of all you.


Thank you for your kind words. I am sorry you are dealing with telling you son this weekend. I wish you the best. I don't know if I will ever be able to put the sex and ring texts behind me, especially as they were hot and heavy right up until she was caught. I have to admit I am willing to try, with the help of MC, but I don't feel she is sincerely committed to making a genuine attempt to R. I hate to sound weak and whiney in a forum where that is seen poorly but I put everything into trying to build a life together, what do I have left?


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## Foolish Man

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> She took advantage of you trust. You were duped. You ARE NOT a "fool". Stop saying and thinking that. This is a big club that none of us ever wanted to be a member in
> 
> She upset because A)She got caught and B)It has effected her ability to to continue to meet and have sex with the OM.
> 
> Any hurt you're suffering is much further down her list of the reasons why shes upset.
> 
> She's gone my friend and it's been that way for months now. Yes, she's "in the fog", but even if she were to snap out of it, the level that this affair has gotten to has changed everything.
> 
> You'll NEVER be able to trust her again. If you R I give it less than 2 years before she's either back in contact with this OM, or she's found another OM. You don't want to believe this right now, but in the back of your mind you know that it's the most likey long term outcome.
> 
> Her telling him that he's the on one that can preform cunnilingus on her tells me that they not only had regular sex, they had it on a regular basis. This has gone MUCH deeper than she's tried lead you to believe it has.
> 
> If she mentions suicide again, call 911. I think she's just using it as a plot to dupe you yet again, but don't take the risk. If you don't and she does try, or succed in killing herself, you feel the effects of not calling the rest of your life.


Having been duped makes me feel like a fool. Still wanting to R makes me feel even more so. Investing everything (heart, mind, long and short term planning etc.) into something that seems to have disappeared so completely makes me feel like a fool. Your reasons for her being upset not only make sense but match what I see. I'm not sure where on the list my hurt falls but I haven't seen much that makes seem like it's at the forefront of her mind. I guess I am still in denial about what it means that things have gone so far. You may be right that she is gone but that is just to much for me to absorb/believe/process right now. I don't know if I could ever trust her again, I am willing to see what would come of MC, ever the fool. Your 2 years or less prediction matches with what happens almost all the time and I know it. I agree that her "your the only one who can eat me" and his "I dreamed about you at the hotel" texts in the day before DDay make clear there was sex on a regular basis. Somehow I cling to denial trying to believe her claim of "no penetration" however the fact that penetration is the legal line in FL chips away at denial. Her claim that her disability prevents her from remembering a timeline with any accuracy rings false. I confronted her with the wedding plans she didn't deny it. She also didn't seem to step up to take responsibility or show substantial remorse. It obviously went/goes much further than she has taken responsibility for or frankly admitted to.

Thank you for your very solid advice on suicide threats. Calling 911 is definitely the only appropriate response. Instead it worked as a manipulative trick to get me to go nice.


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## Foolish Man

azteca1986 said:


> The only 180 you should be thinking about is in your insistence on trying to R. I'm sorry.
> 
> Sometimes things are too far gone to get a marriage back on track.
> 
> Please see a lawyer to find out where you stand.


I hear what you're saying. I find it hard to give up my commitment and walk away from something I have put 12 years and everything I have into without at least giving it a try with professional help. Things may be too far gone and a part of me wants that to be recognized in a neutral setting with a qualified witness under calm and structured conditions. I'm thinking if that becomes clear in a MC session it would prevent the blame shifting and suicide threatening behavior. I was figuring I'd see a lawyer right after our first session which is scheduled for early next week. Then I have to go back to work, wondering what will go on while I am at work all night and what will await me when I get home.


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## Nomorebeans

Foolish Man said:


> Thank you for your kind words. I am sorry you are dealing with telling you son this weekend. I wish you the best. I don't know if I will ever be able to put the sex and ring texts behind me, especially as they were hot and heavy right up until she was caught. I have to admit I am willing to try, with the help of MC, but I don't feel she is sincerely committed to making a genuine attempt to R. I hate to sound weak and whiney in a forum where that is seen poorly but I put everything into trying to build a life together, what do I have left?


Believe me, FM, I know this feeling. He's leaving a 50-year-old woman who is raising a 13-year-old son, so he can go be with another woman he's in love with instead. The thought has crossed my mind more than once that other than my son, what do I have left? The men are not going to line up around the block for a woman in my position. But you'll find as time goes by that you'll have these kinds of thoughts less and less. It's helped me to take a page from his book and try being selfish for a change. Whenever I find myself playing that tape in my head of everything they've apparently done together, I shift my focus to myself. What can I do today to make myself feel better? Since murder is illegal (j/k, really, I am), I've started taking my health more into my hands and have started walking 2 miles and doing yoga every day. My goal is to get into the best shape of my life. Not to spite him or to get ready for the next man - to make myself stronger for my son and myself, and to keep from going out of my fvcking mind.

Seek out your friends who'll support you in moving towards the next phase of your life. People here and elsewhere have told me that while the outlook seems very dark now, It.Will.Get.Better. I do have actual moments now of acceptance, contentment, and yes, even hopefulness. I've come to realize that my STBX hasn't cared about how I feel about anything he's done for a very long time. When I see him as he really is, and not the hero I thought he was, I see someone who had a number of EAs with various OW over the years that he passed off as just "friendships." He's having one right now with a different woman from the one he's leaving me for - he texts with her all day long every day - he does not do the same with the OW. If I didn't hate her so much, I'd feel sorry for her. I've come to realize that he's a narcissist, and it's always going to be about him first and everyone else (maybe) later. I'm hopeful he'll maintain a good relationship with our son, but his selfishness of late doesn't bode well on that front. That's the one thing I hope I'm wrong about in all this.

Stay strong. You're actually doing better than I was a week (or even a month) after my D-Day. Way better. I don't mean this facetiously or patronizingly when I say I think you're going to be fine - better than fine - in the end. A year from now, you'll be wondering why you spent as much time and effort as you did with this one, and wishing you could send Jamaica Man a Thank You card for taking her off your hands.


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## cgiles

You say you don't have the heart for do the 180, so you love yourself less than her ?

Read "no more mr nice back" by robert glover, it will help you to get back your self respect. 
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

If you really want to reconcile with her, be ready to lose your marriage. File for divorce, make her served, expose. Go nuclear, and make her fantasy becomes reality. 
Work on yourself, appear less granted.

Did you asked her why she didn't moved yet with him ?


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## azteca1986

Foolish Man said:


> I find it hard to give up my commitment and walk away from something I have put 12 years and everything I have into without at least giving it a try with professional help.


Commitment is a two-way street.

EDIT: And yes you are co-dependent. Some people would not need professional help to know the writing is on the wall for their marriage when your spouse starts picking out wedding rings and dresses.

Do what you have to, to get through this one way or another


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## Foolish Man

lifeistooshort said:


> I guess, given what you've said, I'm not surewht she'd want to reconcile with you. Unless she's not sure Jamaica man is going to work out. I guess you'll do to pay bills in the meantime.
> 
> Terminating a pregnancy is tough on a woman, but if it was a mutual decision she can't blame you. I don't know, maybe she feels like you agreeing to it destroyed her image of you as a protector. Just speculating of course.
> 
> Jamaica man isn't going to solve her issues, but I am having trouble seeing what exactly you have to save.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





lifeistooshort said:


> And that is proof of how full of sh1t she is. She claims to be worried about you hurting yourself, but the first thing she did was talk about going to the hospital so she wouldn't hurt herself in order to manipulate you. Clearly it worked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has spent some time stating she want to R and is committed to doing everything she can, but that was this morning after the 2nd confrontation. She had been saying she wanted to try and continuing to lie for the last few days. She hasn't ever said anything about blaming me for the termination but I see your point about my protector status being shattered. I wish we had pursued counseling on the issue. Not to be cold but it was something I had dealt with before and didn't see it as the problem it was for her. She sought counseling and got a really bad therapist who dismissed her problem with it and then dismissed her summarily without closure or referral. I think she has pretty clearly realized the relationship with her OM was not going to lead to healthy growth but I don't know the real truth behind that. They are both in the counseling profession. Perhaps she entertains the idea that with him she would be able to work on her issues and have sex and a relationship.

You're right she pulled out the last trick of a truly selfish person and used it to manipulate me and you're right it worked. I can't help but care and don't know how to manage emotional detachment right now. I'm probably codependent. I am hoping the MC we are supposed to see is halfway decent and could help with D or R. At least provide a structure to help me realize if it can be salvaged and if not deal with accepting and going through the process.


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## honcho

Foolish Man said:


> I hear what you're saying. I find it hard to give up my commitment and walk away from something I have put 12 years and everything I have into without at least giving it a try with professional help. Things may be too far gone and a part of me wants that to be recognized in a neutral setting with a qualified witness under calm and structured conditions. I'm thinking if that becomes clear in a MC session it would prevent the blame shifting and suicide threatening behavior. I was figuring I'd see a lawyer right after our first session which is scheduled for early next week. Then I have to go back to work, wondering what will go on while I am at work all night and what will await me when I get home.


Right now she is using your feelings of commitment against you. She knows you want to "save the marriage". She knows your exact weaknesses and will play them fully against you. 

Your too close to the eye of the storm, your dday was a short time ago. Your going to have to find the strength within yourself to give yourself time to deal with your own feelings and hurt. Your emotions are jumping at R but sooner or later your brain is going to start asking what are you saving? 

She sounds more just in damage control mode. She buying time, not trying to fix a marriage
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

Nomorebeans said:


> Believe me, FM, I know this feeling. He's leaving a 50-year-old woman who is raising a 13-year-old son, so he can go be with another woman he's in love with instead. The thought has crossed my mind more than once that other than my son, what do I have left? The men are not going to line up around the block for a woman in my position. But you'll find as time goes by that you'll have these kinds of thoughts less and less. It's helped me to take a page from his book and try being selfish for a change. Whenever I find myself playing that tape in my head of everything they've apparently done together, I shift my focus to myself. What can I do today to make myself feel better? Since murder is illegal (j/k, really, I am), I've started taking my health more into my hands and have started walking 2 miles and doing yoga every day. My goal is to get into the best shape of my life. Not to spite him or to get ready for the next man - to make myself stronger for my son and myself, and to keep from going out of my fvcking mind.
> 
> Seek out your friends who'll support you in moving towards the next phase of your life. People here and elsewhere have told me that while the outlook seems very dark now, It.Will.Get.Better. I do have actual moments now of acceptance, contentment, and yes, even hopefulness. I've come to realize that my STBX hasn't cared about how I feel about anything he's done for a very long time. When I see him as he really is, and not the hero I thought he was, I see someone who had a number of EAs with various OW over the years that he passed off as just "friendships." He's having one right now with a different woman from the one he's leaving me for - he texts with her all day long every day - he does not do the same with the OW. If I didn't hate her so much, I'd feel sorry for her. I've come to realize that he's a narcissist, and it's always going to be about him first and everyone else (maybe) later. I'm hopeful he'll maintain a good relationship with our son, but his selfishness of late doesn't bode well on that front. That's the one thing I hope I'm wrong about in all this.
> 
> Stay strong. You're actually doing better than I was a week (or even a month) after my D-Day. Way better. I don't mean this facetiously or patronizingly when I say I think you're going to be fine - better than fine - in the end. A year from now, you'll be wondering why you spent as much time and effort as you did with this one, and wishing you could send Jamaica Man a Thank You card for taking her off your hands.


Thank you again for your kindness. I'm not sure you know how much it helps/means. I am really glad to hear you are doing things to improve your mental and physical health. A 50 year old woman is a catch here in FL, especially one who is strong, compassionate and smart. I think you will find the line a little longer than you expect. Yes murder is illegal (j/K) but even for a narcissist there is probably nothing you could do that will create more realization/hurt than to move on with grace and diminishing concern. I know there is nothing that will bother my WW more deeply than the realization that the person who knew her best and cared the most is the person she totally betrayed and pushed out of her life. As lonely and in pain as things may be for me I know I loved and gave and honored my commitment and that it is not my fault (except for making a poor choice of partner). That's part of the reason I have tried to maintain some "niceness" and have continued to show I care. I'm not going to have a foul taste in my mouth over how I conducted myself or feel guilt and shame. Some in this forum may find this a lack of manliness but I feel quite the opposite. I do realize the validity of their evidence of track records and insight into dynamics, but I'm not in it to win it. I'm living according to my values and beliefs, treating human beings with care is part of that as is being genuine and having feelings.

Thank for saying you think I am doing pretty well. I am sorry it was worse for you. And come to think of it I do have an exGF that I am grateful to an ex friend for relieving me of. Unfortunately I'm a little short on friends with a night shift schedule and almost entirely female coworkers (I maintained boundaries) the chances are few. I also guess I've been pretty withdrawn and depressed for some time. I'm hoping to manage to change that (here goes the 180, at least in part).


----------



## lifeistooshort

Foolish Man said:


> She has spent some time stating she want to R and is committed to doing everything she can, but that was this morning after the 2nd confrontation. She had been saying she wanted to try and continuing to lie for the last few days. She hasn't ever said anything about blaming me for the termination but I see your point about my protector status being shattered. I wish we had pursued counseling on the issue. Not to be cold but it was something I had dealt with before and didn't see it as the problem it was for her. She sought counseling and got a really bad therapist who dismissed her problem with it and then dismissed her summarily without closure or referral. I think she has pretty clearly realized the relationship with her OM was not going to lead to healthy growth but I don't know the real truth behind that. They are both in the counseling profession. Perhaps she entertains the idea that with him she would be able to work on her issues and have sex and a relationship.
> 
> You're right she pulled out the last trick of a truly selfish person and used it to manipulate me and you're right it worked. I can't help but care and don't know how to manage emotional detachment right now. I'm probably codependent. I am hoping the MC we are supposed to see is halfway decent and could help with D or R. At least provide a structure to help me realize if it can be salvaged and if not deal with accepting and going through the process.



I don't think most people would advocate that you tell her do it or pretend you don't care, only that you see it for what it is and deal with it accordingly. Tell her you're sorry she feels that way and call 911, but don't let it dictate your actions. 

What I meant by why she wants to reconcile was that it doesn't seem like she's in the marriage. You're not having sex, it seems like you have little more then a business arrangement, so besides having you there to pay bills and be a presence if om doesn't work out what is she getting out of this? More importantly what are you getting out of this? 

It does sound like the termination was the beginning of your decline though. You two either need to be all in with counseling or just call it a day. And three likelihood of her finding another man if Jamaica doesn't work out is high.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Not to pee in your Cheerios. But you should mail the letter yourself, or do it together. In case she mistakes a trash can for a mail box.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I told her to mail it return receipt overnight. I know she could send another letter or an empty envelope. That's really on her. I am not going to fight with her to prevent her going underground. If she thinks she can handle that it's her problem. I'm not going to be extending trust or believing that we are working things out without seeing real action and a genuine demonstration of caring. Even with that it will take a lot of time for me to invest more into my marriage.

That said I am considering disclosure. Her family is a really sticky issue. They have done her more harm than good and I don't think they are a good influence on anything they have anything to deal with. The OM though? I could send a letter to his job and to his professional association, perhaps the state licensure board. His professional organization's code of ethics includes not engaging in, condoning etc dishonesty. There is actually some evidence in my WW's search history that she was seeking how to discourage unwanted attention. She had even read some articles on how workplace flirtations/EA are wrong and dangerous. Not as much searching as she did on how to please her OM but a couple of searches across a couple of weeks. That kind of indicates sexual harassment which would be a violation of company policy. The state isn't really concerned with the issue that I can see the statues and rules all deal with clients. What about his fb friends. Her BFF has known for some time, is a standard disclosure fb message appropriate? What about her fb friends?

Edit to note I used disclosure not exposure. My continued shame and humiliation shows through.


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## Foolish Man

honcho said:


> Right now she is using your feelings of commitment against you. She knows you want to "save the marriage". She knows your exact weaknesses and will play them fully against you.
> 
> Your too close to the eye of the storm, your dday was a short time ago. Your going to have to find the strength within yourself to give yourself time to deal with your own feelings and hurt. Your emotions are jumping at R but sooner or later your brain is going to start asking what are you saving?
> 
> She sounds more just in damage control mode. She buying time, not trying to fix a marriage
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right she knows my weaknesses and is playing them all against me full strength. What am I supposed to do to find this strength and time? I am dealing with this in the here and now. I wish my brain were working well enough to let me evaluate what I am considering trying to save. It does indeed seem like her behavior is damage control/time buying and the level and extent she is trying to fix the marriage seems lacking. She overwhelmed and has what could be considered a disability (another weakness in me she exploits) so I'm not sure how much I can expect.


----------



## Foolish Man

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't think most people would advocate that you tell her do it or pretend you don't care, only that you see it for what it is and deal with it accordingly. Tell her you're sorry she feels that way and call 911, but don't let it dictate your actions.
> 
> What I meant by why she wants to reconcile was that it doesn't seem like she's in the marriage. You're not having sex, it seems like you have little more then a business arrangement, so besides having you there to pay bills and be a presence if om doesn't work out what is she getting out of this? More importantly what are you getting out of this?
> 
> It does sound like the termination was the beginning of your decline though. You two either need to be all in with counseling or just call it a day. And three likelihood of her finding another man if Jamaica doesn't work out is high.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She managed to use the suicide threat to manipulate me. If it happens again I'm definitely calling 911. Both of the suggestions mentioned are in this thread.

It's hard for me to think about what she is getting out of this. Paying the bills is definitely part of it. After 11 years of marriage she is on the verge of professional status and that is when she decides to cheat. Clearly much of what I thought she was getting out of it is not what I thought. Someone who knows her, cares, understands and seeks to help. I thought love was also something she and I were both getting. Obviously she sought much of that elsewhere and wasn't really giving it. Things like someone you can trust and count were not there at least from her. Although she continues to manipulate me to see that she can still count on me to care. I thought another part was someone who understood her sexuality was shattered by the termination was a part also but again reality tells a different story. The termination was before we married so I guess it was something not dealt with for too long and a fake crutch. I don't know if I feel she would be "all in" for counseling. I guess that is one of the things I was thinking would show if she is sincere about attempting to R.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
If your wife is really interested in R with you then she will be willing to move Heaven and Earth to make it happen. You will not have to ask or beg or convince her in any way. If that is not her attitude, then you are being played and she is biding time. One person cannot R, it takes at least two and for it to be successful both parties must be all in 100%. Anything less is destined to fail.

May I ask what line of counseling your wife is practicing? I am merely curious. In any event, although you may not think so now, there is life after infidelity. Ofttimes a better life than before the betrayal so be encouraged and understand that before the better happens, the worse must be dealt with and removed. Sometimes it is a behavior and sometimes it is the whole person but either way the worse has to go. I wish you good fortune


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## Lostinthought61

have you sat down and made a list (there are plenty of lists on many of the threads here) on what you need her to agree too 100% for you to feel her commitment to R. I think you need to tell her to her face that your trust in her has been destoryed completely and she needs to do everything in her power to help restore it if that is even possible.


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## Nomorebeans

Foolish Man said:


> but even for a narcissist there is probably nothing you could do that will create more realization/hurt than to move on with grace and diminishing concern.


Thank you for your kind words (in the rest of your post), too, and especially for this. It is really resonating with me. This is exactly, really, what The 180 is about - it's not about pretending to be something you're not (I have difficulty with that, too, and so don't follow it to the letter). It's about letting the person who has broken your heart and who is already gone go, while maintaining your dignity and sanity. I hope you'll go back to this and remember you said it in the dark times that may come, when you'll know in your heart of hearts that she's manipulating you, and it will help you to do that.

I also enjoy not giving my STBX any further validation that what he's doing is the right thing, other than the ridiculous, blame-shifting [email protected] he tells himself. So I don't beg, plead, blame, or argue with him. When he says something stupid and insensitive, like the other night, when he told me that my being in "such good shape" will really help me when I'm "back in the dating scene," I just pleasantly say something like, "OK, thanks for the advice," as if he just suggested a brand of toothpaste I should try, and walk away or change the subject. He can't truthfully say to his friends behind my back stuff like "I can't wait to get out of here - she's being such a b!tch" because I'm just not.

Like you, I will walk away from this whole experience with a clean conscience and with dignity. His conscience will never be fully clean again. If I weren't still so angry with him, I'd already feel sorry for him. My next trick is to not let the anger consume me. I'm working that out with all the walking, so I'm hopeful that day is coming, too.


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## cgiles

Foolish Man said:


> What am I supposed to do to find this strength and time?


At the gym, taking care of you.
By doing things you like, for yourself.
By doing the 180lists.
By doing a therapy.
By reading "no more mr nice guy" by robert glover.


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## ThePheonix

Foolish Man said:


> Having been duped makes me feel like a fool. Still wanting to R makes me feel even more so. Investing everything (heart, mind, long and short term planning etc.) into something that seems to have disappeared so completely makes me feel like a fool.


Its normal to feel like a fool when you've been duped. You'll get over it. Five years from now, if you're still around and with someone who loves you, do you think you'll still feel like a fool. You may be like a couple of other guys I know who will tell you losing their ex wife was the best thing that ever happened. The reality is this is like any other investment. When it goes south, beating yourself up, wishing it were different, and hanging on rather than acknowledging and writing off the loss just prolongs the agony. The time and effort you've put into it is a sunk cost that has no bearing on the future. What kind of life are you going to have if you keep her around only to have her long for someone else?


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## happyman64

FoolishMan

Would you like to know how to stop feeling like a fool?

Grab your nuts and twist real hard. Savor the pain.

Then when your head clears start taking action.

1. Find a good PI that does lie detector tests.
2. Schedule an appt. after you and the specialist have worked out the questions you want to ask your wayward wife.

3. Plan a time that you can drive your wife to the lie detector test. Do not tell her until you get in the parking lot. You might get a parking lot confession but no matter what she tells you or threatens you with tell her the test is mandatory or your you will file for divorce.

Keep it simple. Stop listening to her BS and take action.

By the time you are done I assure you that you will feel less of a fool.

HM


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## honcho

Foolish Man said:


> You're right she knows my weaknesses and is playing them all against me full strength. What am I supposed to do to find this strength and time? I am dealing with this in the here and now. I wish my brain were working well enough to let me evaluate what I am considering trying to save. It does indeed seem like her behavior is damage control/time buying and the level and extent she is trying to fix the marriage seems lacking. She overwhelmed and has what could be considered a disability (another weakness in me she exploits) so I'm not sure how much I can expect.


You need to pull yourself back, start doing the 180. Your dealing in the here and now, your trying to fix. Your doing things, she isn't. You didn't make the decision to cheat. You have no idea the extent of this affair. You in essence don't even know what your up against yet let alone fix. 

You have screwed up her "master plan", she wasn't ready to leave but was well on the way from the sounds of it. Her talk of going to break up etc is most likely chat to humor you for now. 

Anyway this plays its lousy and no one ever wants to deal with it. You can repair your marriage at some point but until she becomes invested in that you cant and wont be able to fix anything on your own.


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## Remains

Foolish Man said:


> On top of that she claims her mental capacity doesn't allow her to remember. She does have epilepsy and some damage from heavy medications when very young.


Classic! They all say 'I don't remember'! She has a special kind of I don't remember though and yes, all manipulation! What ever you do make sure your words that follow are 'I don't believe you'! Unless she has alzheimers or dementia of course. The fact she says 'you don't deserve this' etc is a full admission of 'I remember'!

And her money savings, all to run away with behind your back. Don't fall for it for bloody God's sake!


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## Remains

Foolish Man said:


> I don't really have to much to worry about there as we haven't had sex in more than a year. I did tell her she needed to get checked immediately.


Because she doesn't want you!

And you are worrying about her feelings and if SHE is ok??!!


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## Remains

I think it was Long walk who posted this....This is a thread that has the PERFECT way to deal with a betrayal, a wayward spouse. This man deals with his situation in the text book TAM manner, yet he never needed advice on how to behave and this was all done off his own back, and he never posted on TAM. He didn't need advice, he did it all on his own. He has confidence, self esteem, and this is the ONLY right way to deal with infidelity. Even if your experience doesn't play out in the same way, you still get to the best result for you by dealing with your situation in this way. If your wife doesn't respond, it's because she has no interest and you are better off without her anyway. 

www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=552588&AP=1


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## Foolish Man

Nomorebeans said:


> Thank you for your kind words (in the rest of your post), too, and especially for this. It is really resonating with me. This is exactly, really, what The 180 is about - it's not about pretending to be something you're not (I have difficulty with that, too, and so don't follow it to the letter). It's about letting the person who has broken your heart and who is already gone go, while maintaining your dignity and sanity. I hope you'll go back to this and remember you said it in the dark times that may come, when you'll know in your heart of hearts that she's manipulating you, and it will help you to do that.
> 
> I also enjoy not giving my STBX any further validation that what he's doing is the right thing, other than the ridiculous, blame-shifting [email protected] he tells himself. So I don't beg, plead, blame, or argue with him. When he says something stupid and insensitive, like the other night, when he told me that my being in "such good shape" will really help me when I'm "back in the dating scene," I just pleasantly say something like, "OK, thanks for the advice," as if he just suggested a brand of toothpaste I should try, and walk away or change the subject. He can't truthfully say to his friends behind my back stuff like "I can't wait to get out of here - she's being such a b!tch" because I'm just not.
> 
> *Like you, I will walk away from this whole experience with a clean conscience and with dignity.* His conscience will never be fully clean again. If I weren't still so angry with him, I'd already feel sorry for him. My next trick is to not let the anger consume me. I'm working that out with all the walking, so I'm hopeful that day is coming, too.


Sorry to hear you are going through that kind of insensitive sh*t. Are you still living together? How long has that been going on since DDay? Sounds like real h*ll if you are. I don't know how we will handle it if D seems the way. There isn't money for an extended hotel stay. I have told her she will have to call her parents and borrow enough to get an apt. but that would take at least some time. Honestly I am getting a bit numb. Somehow if she isn't really invested there isn't much there for me to continue agonizing over. Almost seems as if it would be easier to just let her go. I am making every attempt to establish some self worth and define myself by my standards. It actually feels kind of good to have the clean conscience and dignity you speak of. I do already feel sorry for her but in my work I see suffering and death on a regular basis. I have learned to feel regret and sorrow for the pain and loss of others while continuing to function at a high level. Hopefully this skill will prevent her from being able to manipulate me with my sympathy for her. I think she has an almost sociopathic inability to process how she is truly not clean in so many ways. It becomes a self pity party not a deep realization that her actions reflect a true lack of character, values and basic decency. I have always tried to understand that she doesn't process thoughts as someone without her disability does but I don't know if this leaves enough of the kind of person I value to be married to. I had an ex who worked in an animal shelter and some dogs were just put down because they didn't have what it took to be a pet. I could love a simple minded person but I don't know if I could have the depth of a relationship needed for marriage with someone who lacked a genuine understanding of responsibility or the ability to apply that understanding in a meaningful way. I have a cat for simple companionship and soft warmth. Part of what I have contributed is understanding and support. I don't think I am willing to accept and understand someone without a functional conscience and it is going to be very hard to offer any support. You know I don't think I feel sorry for her, I pity her. I empathize with her current agony but like I said I have professional separation skills.

I hope your walks turn into a pleasant experience in which you feel your body working and your presence in the world and that world has beauty and one day joy in it.


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## Foolish Man

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> If your wife is really interested in R with you then she will be willing to move Heaven and Earth to make it happen. You will not have to ask or beg or convince her in any way. If that is not her attitude, then you are being played and she is biding time. One person cannot R, it takes at least two and for it to be successful both parties must be all in 100%. Anything less is destined to fail.
> 
> May I ask what line of counseling your wife is practicing? I am merely curious. In any event, although you may not think so now, there is life after infidelity. Ofttimes a better life than before the betrayal so be encouraged and understand that before the better happens, the worse must be dealt with and removed. Sometimes it is a behavior and sometimes it is the whole person but either way the worse has to go. I wish you good fortune


She's going to have to start showing that attitude and acting in a manner that reflects it. Starting earlier today I may have been manipulable but not really so foolable. I'll see how her behavior goes and what she brings to the table in MC. As much as I am committed to try it's going to take a metric fvckton from her to convince me we are doing anything but winding it down with professional help.

She's in addiction/behavior counseling. Tomorrow is her last day at the job where she shares an office with her OM. Again my level of belief that after sending texts about "only you can eat me" and receiving texts about "dreamt of you in the hotel" (Thurs) with one phone call (Sun) she went in on Monday and they had nothing but a civil and brief work only interaction all week. If she's just buying some time I hope she is getting her ducks in a row because when/if she fvcks me over again/still she had best be ready to roll. The 180 would simply be and there will be no fourth chance. M, DDay, 2nd confrontation is all there is in me. I get a different kind of anger when I'm done with someone. Cold doesn't even begin to describe how I detach when I'm through with someone. I've done it before with my 1st wife, my mother and others. It's not moving on it's moved.


----------



## Foolish Man

cgiles said:


> At the gym, taking care of you.
> By doing things you like, for yourself.
> By doing the 180lists.
> By doing a therapy.
> By reading "no more mr nice guy" by robert glover.


Perhaps the beach can be my gym
The things I like I need to change, they are sedentary and isolationist
I'll give some 180 lists a try, see if they inspire strength and provide a healing time
What do you mean by a therapy?
I can certainly read another book, perhaps at the park or beach

Thank you for concrete suggestions and for taking the time to read and reply.


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## Foolish Man

ThePheonix said:


> Its normal to feel like a fool when you've been duped. You'll get over it. Five years from now, if you're still around and with someone who loves you, do you think you'll still feel like a fool. You may be like a couple of other guys I know who will tell you losing their ex wife was the best thing that ever happened. The reality is this is like any other investment. When it goes south, beating yourself up, wishing it were different, and hanging on rather than acknowledging and writing off the loss just prolongs the agony. The time and effort you've put into it is a sunk cost that has no bearing on the future. What kind of life are you going to have if you keep her around only to have her long for someone else?


Thanks for your support. I hope I'm still around in five years, I'm not that old nor sick. You can't imagine what "with someone who loves you" meant to me. It just made me think of it completely differently. Not the pain of getting back into dating, the poor self image and low self worth but the idea of someone who loves me. What a wonderful thought. Almost makes the idea of being open to a new relationship seem reasonable. If I don't start getting something out of my M and something substantial and soon believe me I can accept the sunk cost and let it go.


----------



## NotLikeYou

Foolish Man said:


> I don't really have to much to worry about there as we haven't had sex in more than a year. I did tell her she needed to get checked immediately.





Foolish Man said:


> I just don't have the strength or hardness of heart to 180 right now. I'd never tell someone who threatened suicide to go ahead that is just wrong because of my training and experience. I can't show her I don't care because I do. She certainly has been and continues to be selfish and has shown very much in the way of real concern about what she has done to me. I am working up the strength to have the D paperwork filled out and ready. I really think that is what I need to do. If she has the balls to call and say she doesn't want to R then I might be able to have her sign and go to the court with me right then. In FL you can do dissolution with mutual agreement but I would have to do up a financial agreement. We have a fair amount of financial business but not too much. How am I supposed to get up the strength and mental wherewithal to go through our credit cards, car loan, student loans and bank accounts, do an accounting and write up an agreement?





Foolish Man said:


> She has used that as one of her excuses/reasons for not telling me. She says she has been worried about me for years and was afraid I might hurt myself. I wonder if that was a concern when she was picking out a wedding dress, ring and flowers?





Foolish Man said:


> Having been duped makes me feel like a fool. Still wanting to R makes me feel even more so. Investing everything (heart, mind, long and short term planning etc.) into something that seems to have disappeared so completely makes me feel like a fool. Your reasons for her being upset not only make sense but match what I see. I'm not sure where on the list my hurt falls but I haven't seen much that makes seem like it's at the forefront of her mind. I guess I am still in denial about what it means that things have gone so far. You may be right that she is gone but that is just to much for me to absorb/believe/process right now. I don't know if I could ever trust her again, I am willing to see what would come of MC, ever the fool. Your 2 years or less prediction matches with what happens almost all the time and I know it. I agree that her "your the only one who can eat me" and his "I dreamed about you at the hotel" texts in the day before DDay make clear there was sex on a regular basis. Somehow I cling to denial trying to believe her claim of "no penetration" however the fact that penetration is the legal line in FL chips away at denial. Her claim that her disability prevents her from remembering a timeline with any accuracy rings false. I confronted her with the wedding plans she didn't deny it. She also didn't seem to step up to take responsibility or show substantial remorse. It obviously went/goes much further than she has taken responsibility for or frankly admitted to.
> 
> Thank you for your very solid advice on suicide threats. Calling 911 is definitely the only appropriate response. Instead it worked as a manipulative trick to get me to go nice.


Foolish person, have you ever considered professional counseling? I think it would be helpful.

There's a saying about how "nobody can abuse you without your permission."

My question to you is, how did you get to a position in life where you are participating in being abused so shamefully?


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## Foolish Man

NotLikeYou said:


> Foolish person, have you ever considered professional counseling? I think it would be helpful.
> 
> There's a saying about how "nobody can abuse you without your permission."
> 
> My question to you is, how did you get to a position in life where you are participating in being abused so shamefully?


I am definitely going to be getting a referral from the MC for IC. I have been hanging on in a sexless marriage because I felt partly responsible for my WW loss of her sexuality. According to her she has had no interest or arousal (well except for an EA she put a stop to promptly 3 years ago) until this PA. I have enjoyed being there for her as she dealt with many issues, went to grad school and embarked on a career path. She was there for me as I went to school and started my career before that. And before that we had a pretty intense codependent struggle for survival in the modern economy. She's been a solidly mediocre housewife and always tolerated me basically doing my thing. Only in looking back now do I see I have been playing martyr or just existing. I have only recently realized how little I was getting back in terms of support, understanding or caring. Before I got serious with my WW I was in a pretty dark place. I was 30 dating 18-24 year olds and treating them like sh*t. I was drinking heavily, riding my motorcycle and being pretty much scum. In deciding I loved her and should treat her decently I changed. In honoring my commitment to build a life for us I became a professional, quit or drastically reduced my vices and grew into/returned to being a decent person and upstanding member of society. Hopefully I can carry that forward and build a life for myself being the ethical caring person I am at heart. I really don't think I can tolerate being drained and not replenished any more. I am willing to give her a chance but the damage she has done to the possibility of us reclaiming a sex life and the fact I really wonder if she has much to offer in terms of caring about me, my thoughts and feeling, my interests etc I'm not sure there is something worth saving for me. Thanks for your interest, I hope I have answered your questions.


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## Nucking Futs

Recent update on Florida alimony reform. From www.myfloridalaw.com



> * April 14th, 2015 – The proposed alimony bill has survived numerous committees in both the House and the Senate. Both versions of the bill have been slightly changed through the committee process. In particular the Low and High limits for the amount of alimony have slightly changed. The lower limit has inched a bit higher and the higher limit has inched lower. The net effect is to narrow the range of choices a judge has in selecting an amount of alimony. The “sleeper provision” – calling for a starting point of 50/50 overnights in parenting time has survived, but only in the Senate version. The difficulty of filing and sustaining a cohabitation case has been made a bit harder through a technical change in language. But overall the alimony bill remains intact. There will be several more committees to pass through before both the House version and the Senate version must be “harmonized” (made identical). Then the bill will go to Governor Scott.


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## Foolish Man

So I've made my first attempts at a 180 and damn if doesn't seem to be working better than being needy. It's also helping me have something else on my mind and feel OK for a moment here and there. Finally fixing the AC in my car and getting some new shoes tomorrow (maybe some new threads too.)


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## happyman64

Foolish Man said:


> So I've made my first attempts at a 180 and damn if doesn't seem to be working better than being needy. It's also helping me have something else on my mind and feel OK for a moment here and there. Finally fixing the AC in my car and getting some new shoes tomorrow (maybe some new threads too.)


Congrats.

Keep moving forward.


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## Foolish Man

Well the isn't going as strong as I would like. I now totally realize I am jeopardizing my chances of R by being a petulant miserable person repeatedly confronting my WW. Still when I have questions or suspicions I stew on them until the next time I get a chance to confront. This is something I am working hard to try and change. I also don't think withdrawing is the best way to build a new relationship. I may be proven wrong. The advice here has been shown right again and again.

My WW has come around a great deal. Showing some remorse and realizing the questions and suspicion are the consequences of her actions. She is making great strides in not becoming hostile and defensive and in not turning everything around to be about her. _Not 'Just Friends'_ by Shirley Glass seems to be very useful for her. So at this point she is doing all the right things. Our first appt at MC went well. WW thinks the MC is biased towards me. I pointed out probably appropriate therapeutic support for a BS more, but she may have a point.

The subject of no contact and no attempt at contact from the OM came up. As the fog is lifting (far to slowly for my comfort) the idea that the OM wasn't deeply in love with her (love of his life, marriage discussed) but was shock upon shock perhaps lying to her has occurred. The proposed alternate a respect for her desire to work on her marriage and respect for her wishes. I pointed out respect for our marriage is out of the question based on intentional seduction and ongoing secret A. The beginning of a glimmer of recognition and the memory of some red flags she had ignored... 

I blurted out the obvious, it's not respect it's that the OM has something to lose. OMG no OMFG this led to her feeling like a fool. Sadness that what she had thought was a love born in the wrong place at the wrong time was possibly just a manipulative POS exploiting her vulnerability, so sad. WTF how incredibly narcissistic NO thought or consideration of how what she had done might have impacted someone else. If the OM has something to lose that means he is cheating on a partner of some sort. What about some idea of the impact on that partner or the responsibility for doing that to someone? No fvcking enlightenment that there is a fourth involved party and what they have done to that person. Just self pity...


----------



## carmen ohio

Foolish Man said:


> Well the isn't going as strong as I would like. I now totally realize I am jeopardizing my chances of R by being a petulant miserable person repeatedly confronting my WW. Still when I have questions or suspicions I stew on them until the next time I get a chance to confront. This is something I am working hard to try and change. I also don't think withdrawing is the best way to build a new relationship. I may be proven wrong. The advice here has been shown right again and again.
> 
> My WW has come around a great deal. Showing some remorse and realizing the questions and suspicion are the consequences of her actions. She is making great strides in not becoming hostile and defensive and in not turning everything around to be about her. _Not 'Just Friends'_ by Shirley Glass seems to be very useful for her. So at this point she is doing all the right things. Our first appt at MC went well. WW thinks the MC is biased towards me. I pointed out probably appropriate therapeutic support for a BS more, but she may have a point.
> 
> The subject of no contact and no attempt at contact from the OM came up. As the fog is lifting (far to slowly for my comfort) the idea that the OM wasn't deeply in love with her (love of his life, marriage discussed) but was shock upon shock perhaps lying to her has occurred. The proposed alternate a respect for her desire to work on her marriage and respect for her wishes. I pointed out respect for our marriage is out of the question based on intentional seduction and ongoing secret A. The beginning of a glimmer of recognition and the memory of some red flags she had ignored...
> 
> I blurted out the obvious, it's not respect it's that the OM has something to lose. OMG no OMFG this led to her feeling like a fool. Sadness that what she had thought was a love born in the wrong place at the wrong time was possibly just a manipulative POS exploiting her vulnerability, so sad. WTF how incredibly narcissistic NO thought or consideration of how what she had done might have impacted someone else. If the OM has something to lose that means he is cheating on a partner of some sort. What about some idea of the impact on that partner or the responsibility for doing that to someone? No fvcking enlightenment that there is a fourth involved party and what they have done to that person. Just self pity...


FM,

If you want to have any chance at all of saving your marriage, read lots of threads here and learn what works and what doesn't. So far, you've done just about everything wrong.

Also, read and then reread _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ by Dr. Robert Glover (https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf) and _"The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011"_ by Athol Kay (The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life).

Based on what you said to others, you seem to be the kind of person who can only learn from experience, so I'm not going to spend a lot more time here giving you advice (this is probably also why you've only gotten three responses to your last seven posts). But, one way or the other, you will learn and you will get through this. It may just take you longer than necessary.

Good luck.


----------



## Foolish Man

carmen ohio said:


> FM,
> 
> If you want to have any chance at all of saving your marriage, read lots of threads here and learn what works and what doesn't. So far, you've done just about everything wrong.
> 
> Also, read and then reread _"No More Mr. Nice Guy"_ by Dr. Robert Glover (https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf) and _"The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011"_ by Athol Kay (The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life).
> 
> Based on what you said to others, you seem to be the kind of person who can only learn from experience, so I'm not going to spend a lot more time here giving you advice (this is probably also why you've only gotten three responses to your last seven posts). But, one way or the other, you will learn and you will get through this. It may just take you longer than necessary.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks for commenting. I think I am closer to 80/20 with doing everything wrong. I have read a number of threads and get the basics. My WW is now doing everything she should. We have seen MC twice and that is helping. I realize I need to do the 180 aspects that are improving myself, both for myself and to become the kind of man my wife would be interested in. I'll admit my efforts have been somewhat feeble, it's hard for me but I am trying. I have a great deal of anger, frustration and hurt, it is hard not to express that (and do so all to often). I realize women are not attracted to men who say they are frustrated and hurt and that a lack of interest or attempts towards sex is painful and resented. I have heard what has been said and recognize it's validity, I'm just having trouble enacting it. It's not easy to be cheerful and positive when I feel the way I do. It's not easy to ignore the triggers, push down the memories and project myself as a strong man with confidence in my person and sexual attractiveness. Advice on how to actually *do* the 180 and support in my attempts would be helpful.


----------



## carmen ohio

Foolish Man said:


> Thanks for commenting. I think I am closer to 80/20 with doing everything wrong. I have read a number of threads and get the basics. My WW is now doing everything she should. We have seen MC twice and that is helping. I realize I need to do the 180 aspects that are improving myself, both for myself and to become the kind of man my wife would be interested in. I'll admit my efforts have been somewhat feeble, it's hard for me but I am trying. I have a great deal of anger, frustration and hurt, it is hard not to express that (and do so all to often). I realize women are not attracted to men who say they are frustrated and hurt and that a lack of interest or attempts towards sex is painful and resented. I have heard what has been said and recognize it's validity, I'm just having trouble enacting it. It's not easy to be cheerful and positive when I feel the way I do. It's not easy to ignore the triggers, push down the memories and project myself as a strong man with confidence in my person and sexual attractiveness. Advice on how to actually *do* the 180 and support in my attempts would be helpful.


FM,

The so-called "180," which involves pulling away from a spouse and establishing an independant life-style for oneself, is a device for dealing with a WS who continues to cheat. Once the affair is ended and the marriage partners agree to attempt reconciliation, it is not recommended. Rather, reconciliation requires the BS and WS to spend a lot of time together, exploring the reasons for the WS's infidelity, dealing with the BS's insecurity and loss of esteem and generally attempting to rebuild the relationship.

Of course you have anger, frustration and hurt. Your wife cheated on you. You should not be ashamed of this, nor should you try to hide it. In fact, it is important to let your WW know what you are feeling (although you should avoid doing this in a way that undermines your masculinity or makes you appear emotionally weak). It is your WW's responsibility help you overcome the debilitating consequences of her adultery by demonstrating contrition, answering all of your questions truthfully and completely and doing what she can to help ease your pain. This is called _'doing the heavy lifting.'_ If she fails to do these things or does them reluctantly, then you are in a false reconciliation.

Read the books I recommended. Take care of yourself (eat right, get enough rest, exercise regularly and avoid alcohol and drugs). If you have kids, spend quality time with them. Get out and do things that interest you, preferably with male friends (i.e., have a life outside of your marriage).

Consult with an attorney even if you are trying to reconcile. It is a good thing to know what your rights and obligations would be if you eventually decided to divorce.

Don't be too quick to forgive your WW. Put her to the test. It will take you several years at the least to get over the worst parts of her infidelity, and that's if she does everything right. Be aware that most reconciliations fail and a lot of WSs relapse, so don't get your hopes too high. Be realistic in your expectations.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Chaparral

Foolish Man said:


> I am definitely going to be getting a referral from the MC for IC. I have been hanging on in a sexless marriage because I felt partly responsible for my WW loss of her sexuality. According to her she has had no interest or arousal (well except for an EA she put a stop to promptly 3 years ago) until this PA. I have enjoyed being there for her as she dealt with many issues, went to grad school and embarked on a career path. She was there for me as I went to school and started my career before that. And before that we had a pretty intense codependent struggle for survival in the modern economy. She's been a solidly mediocre housewife and always tolerated me basically doing my thing. Only in looking back now do I see I have been playing martyr or just existing. I have only recently realized how little I was getting back in terms of support, understanding or caring. Before I got serious with my WW I was in a pretty dark place. I was 30 dating 18-24 year olds and treating them like sh*t. I was drinking heavily, riding my motorcycle and being pretty much scum. In deciding I loved her and should treat her decently I changed. In honoring my commitment to build a life for us I became a professional, quit or drastically reduced my vices and grew into/returned to being a decent person and upstanding member of society. Hopefully I can carry that forward and build a life for myself being the ethical caring person I am at heart. I really don't think I can tolerate being drained and not replenished any more. I am willing to give her a chance but the damage she has done to the possibility of us reclaiming a sex life and the fact I really wonder if she has much to offer in terms of caring about me, my thoughts and feeling, my interests etc I'm not sure there is something worth saving for me. Thanks for your interest, I hope I have answered your questions.


Did your wife fall in love with the bad boy motorcycle rider or the calm grown up man you became? This is a very important point.


----------



## the guy

Foolish Man said:


> It's not easy to ignore the triggers, push down the memories and project myself as a strong man with confidence in my person and sexual attractiveness. Advice on how to actually *do* the 180 and support in my attempts would be helpful.


Fake it until you make it.
You will fall down a lot but you get back up and try again.
Then in time it will become a learned behavior and you will find that you are not falling down as much as you were.

It was hard for me but I wasn't going to let my wife's cheating define me....she defined her self!

Hold your head up and keep smiling soon you won't even notice that you are actually doing it. Then folks will see a guy they want to hang with and that just might get your old lady thinking about someone taking you away.

It's not easy but some of the greatest challenges in life bring the best rewards. So as long as you keep getting up and dusting your self off...who cares how many time you fall down?


----------



## the guy

BTW i hear a diffirent person on page 5 then the person on page 1. Good for you!

It feels good standing up instead sitting on the ground more worried about your old ladies feeling while she steps over you after she cleans her shoes off your forehead.lol


----------



## Foolish Man

carmen ohio said:


> FM,
> 
> The so-called "180," which involves pulling away from a spouse and establishing an independant life-style for oneself, is a device for dealing with a WS who continues to cheat. Once the affair is ended and the marriage partners agree to attempt reconciliation, it is not recommended. Rather, reconciliation requires the BS and WS to spend a lot of time together, exploring the reasons for the WS's infidelity, dealing with the BS's insecurity and loss of esteem and generally attempting to rebuild the relationship.
> 
> Of course you have anger, frustration and hurt. Your wife cheated on you. You should not be ashamed of this, nor should you try to hide it. In fact, it is important to let your WW know what you are feeling (although you should avoid doing this in a way that undermines your masculinity or makes you appear emotionally weak). It is your WW's responsibility help you overcome the debilitating consequences of her adultery by demonstrating contrition, answering all of your questions truthfully and completely and doing what she can to help ease your pain. This is called _'doing the heavy lifting.'_ If she fails to do these things or does them reluctantly, then you are in a false reconciliation.
> 
> Read the books I recommended. Take care of yourself (eat right, get enough rest, exercise regularly and avoid alcohol and drugs). If you have kids, spend quality time with them. Get out and do things that interest you, preferably with male friends (i.e., have a life outside of your marriage).
> 
> Consult with an attorney even if you are trying to reconcile. It is a good thing to know what your rights and obligations would be if you eventually decided to divorce.
> 
> Don't be too quick to forgive your WW. Put her to the test. It will take you several years at the least to get over the worst parts of her infidelity, and that's if she does everything right. Be aware that most reconciliations fail and a lot of WSs relapse, so don't get your hopes too high. Be realistic in your expectations.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks for the kind words and advice. As the WW and I are working on R I am just doing the parts of the 180 which involve taking better care of myself.

The part that is hard is not acting emotionally weak or undermining my masculinity. I have made some strong steps in that direction but inside I feel wounded and emasculated. I have acknowledged my needs and wants and made it clear that if our marriage cannot fulfill them then it is not going to work for me. I was quite blunt in expressing my anger in an MC session and frankly laid out how I felt some of her explanations were bull**** (and said I wasn't interested in hearing any more).

Our MC feels going into details about what happened during the A is not constructive. I know that's not popular here but I don't need any more triggers. My WW is very rationalizing and drops a lot of ****ty digs into her explanations. I don't really need to hear what happened the way she seems to think is acceptable to tell it. On top of that I did enough hard core detective work to uncover pretty accurately what happened, when, where etc. I have enough details and a solid timeline based more on evidence that what she has said. 

My WW is doing a great deal of heavy lifting now in dealing with my feelings and admitting what she did, how wrong it was and showing remorse. She is no longer getting defensive, admits to doing horribly wrong things, apologizes for them and for the pain it caused/causes me. She is being open with her phone and her activities. What she is not doing is taking steps to reignite our relationship. It has been many long cold dry winters and she is not comfortable getting things going and is feeling very freaked out that I am interested. This is an area where I have to work on being an attractive man, not a needy pushy one. But in my mind she needs to get on the ball when it comes to making me feel wanted and satisfied. I have been reading the books and No More Mr Nice Guy is great.

I am not jumping to forgive. It's not in my nature and that is part of the reason she is freaking out about my wanting to get things going in the right direction. I'm just not interested in being angry, bitter and hurt all the time. I know most Rs fail and honestly it is becoming more clear to me that it would be her loss, less so for me. I already lost what I thought I had. If our relationship can be worked out and be fulfilling to me that would be wonderful, but as I don't have that I don't have much to lose. 

I am also aware that many a WS relapses and that would just be finality for me. It's not like I would lose someone I trust or count on to look out for me. If it happens I'm done and when I'm done I handle it pretty well.


----------



## Foolish Man

Chaparral said:


> Did your wife fall in love with the bad boy motorcycle rider or the calm grown up man you became? This is a very important point.


That is a very good question and the answer is mixed. She was definitely attracted to the bad boy, but I always treated her with kindness and some respect. I think there were elements of my nature that weren't necessarily bad boy that were very attractive and I am working at allowing them to be reborn. I love to ride and am getting the motorcycle I have wanted for 15 years. I was very independent and went out and had fun whenever and wherever I wanted. I was a smart aleck and very "flirty" in a distinctly masculine way. I was a happy person who found or made fun in many ways and was smart and careful at the same time.

If my darker and more malevolent side is what she was so attracted to that is a bit of a problem. I can be a calculating malicious mofo and can really fvck with people. I think she is more scared by that than attracted to it. She also knows that hasn't gone away. I may be a calm grown up man but I'm really really not somebody to fvck with. I know how to put ppl in a world of hurt specially tailored to there weaknesses and fears and deliver the pain methodically and effectively. She is afraid I am "setting her up" in my efforts to R. Lets just say her fears are misplaced.


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## Foolish Man

the guy said:


> Fake it until you make it.
> You will fall down a lot but you get back up and try again.
> Then in time it will become a learned behavior and you will find that you are not falling down as much as you were.
> 
> It was hard for me but I wasn't going to let my wife's cheating define me....she defined her self!
> 
> Hold your head up and keep smiling soon you won't even notice that you are actually doing it. Then folks will see a guy they want to hang with and that just might get your old lady thinking about someone taking you away.
> 
> It's not easy but some of the greatest challenges in life bring the best rewards. So as long as you keep getting up and dusting your self off...who cares how many time you fall down?


Thank you for the kind words and sage advice. I have found myself smiling and enjoying myself again. Somewhat sadly it has been more when I go off on my own than in things done with my WW. I hope that I begin to be able to relax and enjoy doing things with her in such a way that I find myself just smiling. I'd like her to see me that way too. 

I really appreciate the encouragement and it helps to remember even if I get down I can get back up.


----------



## Foolish Man

the guy said:


> BTW i hear a diffirent person on page 5 then the person on page 1. Good for you!
> 
> It feels good standing up instead sitting on the ground more worried about your old ladies feeling while she steps over you after she cleans her shoes off your forehead.lol


Thanks. It sure does feel better standing up, being myself and not getting sh*t on. No More Mr Nice Guy has been a big help. I feel a little bad for my WW and the maelstrom she finds herself in. She's trying to "deal with what she has done" "get over it". I don't mind being a little understanding but I have expressed that my patience is limited. 

I realize there is a little of the fog going on the background of what she is saying. Perhaps more than a little. Her little heartbreak, how truly pathetic. She hasn't realized she was totally played. I don't know if it is worth my time and effort to drive that home. What do you think? If so how? I have been thinking of writing out a "playbook". The techniques and strategy used on her were so textbook I think it would resound. How truly weak and obviously willing does one have to be to fall for such a scheme? In just a few hours of thinking I remembered how to lay the trap so well. Then I went back to the timeline and it seemed cheesy it was so obvious. And yes I did say obviously willing, you don't fall for such blatant bait if your not looking to.

I have to say it doesn't bother me to think "your not going to deal with it or get over it because it will never be undone". She's going to have to know what she did forever. To me dealing with having been a fool and having been so deeply hurt and betrayed doesn't seem as bad as knowing one acted so truly sh**ty. Perhaps her fog and her rewrite of history will function better than I imagine, but I think she's always going to know she really fvcked over someone who loved her and treated her better than anyone ever has (or will). Don't know how much fog remains making her think the OM was so wonderful to her, but I do know she knows I put in 12 years of full time caring, caring for and loving.


----------



## bandit.45

Give yourself the gift of time. There is no timeline for this brother. You heal as you heal...at your own pace. Do not let your WW or counselors or family try to push you into forgiveness.

If your WW has a problem with this, tell her that it is not up to her to tell how or what to feel. You will make a decision about your future when you are damn good and ready. If she cannot wait, point to the door and tell her she is more than free to walk out any time she wants. 

You take care of you. You let the old lady take care of herself. If you don't feel like forgiving her right now that is fine. I believe that forgiveness should not be cheaply given away. I believe you need to make people earn your forgiveness. Make your wife earn yours. 

The minute you let her think that you cannot live without her you have lost the battle. 

I recommend the Harley Road King. The new Indian Scout is badass also.


----------



## bandit.45

Foolish Man said:


> Thank you for the kind words and sage advice. I have found myself smiling and enjoying myself again. Somewhat sadly it has been more when I go off on my own than in things done with my WW. I hope that I begin to be able to relax and enjoy doing things with her in such a way that I find myself just smiling. I'd like her to see me that way too.
> 
> I really appreciate the encouragement and it helps to remember even if I get down I can get back up.


It is because you are becoming interesting to her again. What happened was you let yourself become her dishcloth. You have been so busy playing the role of husband that you got boring. 

Find yourself and be your own man again. Buy that motorcycle and get in touch with your inner dude again. Don't ever let yourself fall into a rut. If you start living for yourself a little, she will follow.


----------



## carmen ohio

the guy said:


> BTW i hear a diffirent person on page 5 then the person on page 1. Good for you!
> 
> It feels good standing up instead sitting on the ground more worried about your old ladies feeling while she steps over you after she cleans her shoes off your forehead.lol


:iagree:



Foolish Man said:


> Thanks for the kind words and advice. As the WW and I are working on R I am just doing the parts of the 180 which involve taking better care of myself.
> 
> The part that is hard is not acting emotionally weak or undermining my masculinity. I have made some strong steps in that direction but inside I feel wounded and emasculated. I have acknowledged my needs and wants and made it clear that if our marriage cannot fulfill them then it is not going to work for me. I was quite blunt in expressing my anger in an MC session and frankly laid out how I felt some of her explanations were bull**** (and said I wasn't interested in hearing any more).
> 
> Our MC feels going into details about what happened during the A is not constructive. I know that's not popular here but I don't need any more triggers. My WW is very rationalizing and drops a lot of ****ty digs into her explanations. I don't really need to hear what happened the way she seems to think is acceptable to tell it. On top of that I did enough hard core detective work to uncover pretty accurately what happened, when, where etc. I have enough details and a solid timeline based more on evidence that what she has said.
> 
> My WW is doing a great deal of heavy lifting now in dealing with my feelings and admitting what she did, how wrong it was and showing remorse. She is no longer getting defensive, admits to doing horribly wrong things, apologizes for them and for the pain it caused/causes me. She is being open with her phone and her activities. What she is not doing is taking steps to reignite our relationship. It has been many long cold dry winters and she is not comfortable getting things going and is feeling very freaked out that I am interested. This is an area where I have to work on being an attractive man, not a needy pushy one. But in my mind she needs to get on the ball when it comes to making me feel wanted and satisfied. I have been reading the books and No More Mr Nice Guy is great.
> 
> I am not jumping to forgive. It's not in my nature and that is part of the reason she is freaking out about my wanting to get things going in the right direction. I'm just not interested in being angry, bitter and hurt all the time. I know most Rs fail and honestly it is becoming more clear to me that it would be her loss, less so for me. I already lost what I thought I had. If our relationship can be worked out and be fulfilling to me that would be wonderful, but as I don't have that I don't have much to lose.
> 
> I am also aware that many a WS relapses and that would just be finality for me. It's not like I would lose someone I trust or count on to look out for me. If it happens I'm done and when I'm done I handle it pretty well.


Frankly, I'm surprised by how much progress you have made in the last two weeks (your posts of 4/16 were pretty pathetic).

I think you are beginning to realize that the key to recovery is taking back control of your emotions, your decisions, and, indeed, your life. You seem well on your way to accomplishing this.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Foolish Man
> What she is not doing is taking steps to reignite our relationship. It has been many long cold dry winters and she is not comfortable getting things going and is feeling very freaked out that I am interested. This is an area where I have to work on being an attractive man, not a *needy* pushy one. But in my mind she needs to get on the ball when it comes to making me feel wanted and satisfied. I have been reading the books and No More Mr Nice Guy is great.


You have zeroed in on one very important aspect of your personality. You are “NEEDY” to extreme and way overly co-dependent. Most people are co-dependent in a marriage and a certain amount of that is not so bad but you are VERY co-dependent and the good thing is that you know it. Now the most important thing about your discovery of being “NEEDY” is *what ACTIONS ARE YOU TAKING TO GET STRONGER?*






> By Carmen in Ohio
> Frankly, I'm surprised by how much progress you have made in the last two weeks (your posts of 4/16 were pretty pathetic)


.

Very pathetic indeed but I am also surprised as to how much progress Foolish Man has made also! My guess is that the ACTIONS he has taken recently has proved to him that he does not have to be her dirty dish rag and that standing up for himself is very healthy for his self-respect


----------



## tonygunner007

Foolish Man said:


> I fear you have hit the nail on the head. She has turned this into all about her. I just don't feel strong enough to do a 180 a*nd I know she is fragile. I care about her deeply* and as much as I feel vengeful and angry, I don't want to see her destroyed. *She is clearly suffering and has deep seated self esteem issues*. I just don't know how I can do this. I am a deeply caring person and she is the one I care about the most. I guess I am foolishly trying to find some middleground between 180 and nicing.


That's the problem. You think more about her welfare than about yours. That's the nice guy syndrome and that's why she'd never change. 

You're talking about her having esteem issues and suffering. What about you? Are you not suffering - or are you enjoying?

If you continue on this nice guy path, you'd get more shocker. Be firm with her - that's what women respects. You first before her - and that has nothing to do with being selfish. If you're not happy, how can you make someone else happy. In a relationship, you need to see your happiness first before talking about the others'. That will keep you from giving too much and feeling used. 

Fulfillment in a relationship comes from "Sharing" happiness - NOT "giving" happiness.


----------



## Healer

I believe you are in for a lot more pain and heartache.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Healer said:


> I believe you are in for a lot more pain and heartache.


I agree. She's not done pulling on his heart strings by a long shot.

This was just the overture. The concerto is about to begin...


----------



## Foolish Man

Just wanted to drop in and thank everyone for the kind comments (and the advice and warnings).

bandit.45: I'm not sure how my forgiveness could be earned, but I am taking your advice to heart. I am trying not to make every time she sees me an incident and have explained I want to and am willing to try to make R work. I hope I have been clear enough that 1) My needs must be met 2) I have not just "let this go" 3) I am not sure our relationship can meet my needs and fulfill what I want.

I am taking care of myself. I could do better on getting in shape and eating and sleeping better but making progress.

I did get my motorcycle. Of course as I drove it home for the first time it broke down and is now back at the dealer. I am angry and frustrated but have been clear and firm in my dealings with the dealership. I love the bike, a Kawasaki Concours 1400. I can't wait to get back up on two. I am making plans/taking steps to include the WW in motorcycling but for me it is primarily a solo thing.

Carmen Ohio: Thanks for the encouragement. I am battling with the fear of being alone and feeling empty and like a failure. I think I am holding my own in this battle, but I'd prefer to make more headway. One thing that helps is realizing I am not going to be happy nor will I accept an R that does not meet my needs. I'd be happier alone than remaining in a miserable, unsatisfying M with someone who doesn't try or succeed in adding to my happiness.

Mr Blunt: Thank you very much for both your bluntness and your encouragement. I totally agree that codependency and neediness are major issues for me. Any suggested actions? I going to read another chapter of No More Mr Nice Guy.

Tonygunner007: Thank you for your insight and guidance. While I have expressed concern for her esteem issues and suffering, I have also expressed mine and told her that needs to be addressed. I have taken firm action also, with mixed results. I'm not sure how to break the needy seeking of her finding my sexually attractive or her wanting to please me etc. I realize this is something I should achieve for myself rather than seek from her but just not sure how to go about it. I'm still married so it's not like I can go out and find someone who thinks I'm sexy and wants to please me and does so well.

We have largely separated our finances and this has been a big blow to her. I am still having to help her work through the world of bills and have to wait for her to contribute her share while checks clear in a new account. She has gotten upset and said it feels like her world is falling apart. I explained it can just be a step towards taking responsibility and understanding out financial position, but it is also clear that I can handle this for myself and would be perfectly capable of doing so completely on my own.

Healer and Groundpounder: Thanks for the warning. I am pretty sure you are right. We recently engaged in intimate activity and she said she felt bad because she felt I deserved someone who was passionate for me and just didn't know why she could be that way with someone else but not me. I'm pretty sure that's the kind of cr*p you are talking about. I took that bullshyte with a straight face and even offered some explanations for her, but I also said later, "You need to figure out why you can't have that passion and interest with me or accept that you can't and get out." She has said this is something she wants to work on in IC and I am encouraging that.

More of that kind of cr*p, she has said she is also dealing with having thought that someone was crazy about her and in love with her but was just lying to her to get into her pants. She prefaced and interjected with it being her problem and her fault and not something I should care about.

I'm not going to put up with any more of this passive aggressive, spiteful, hurtful shyte. At this point I am balancing patience, financial considerations and compassion with my anger at hurtful cr*p, my growing coldness and the feeling that if this isn't going to meet my needs in the end it is a waste of my time and energy and subjecting myself to agony for no good reason.

Again thanks to all.


----------



## Foolish Man

Re: Codependency, neediness and love.

I think I am making some progress in this complicated arena. I am starting to realize/accept/understand the difference between loving the WW and loving having someone with me, having someone I can count on etc. The A has opened my eyes a great deal. I don't really love having someone with me who doesn't show me warmth, compassion and passion. Just being there doesn't cut it for me. Clinging to her presence is not very satisfying and being alone doesn't seem as frightening when compared to being stuck in a M that is unhappy and painful for me. Clearly I don't have someone I can count on. On balance being with someone I can't trust, who doesn't show compassion for me and who doesn't show interest and enjoyment in being with me doesn't seem like a better situation than being alone. I long for companionship, love and sex but if my M continues to be so incredibly poor at providing those things, I'm better off alone with the possibility of finding a relationship that could please, satisfy and fulfill me. Kinda sad to let something I have put 12 years into and the closeness developed but spilled milk is spilled. I haven't gotten much out of our M in some time. I can take care of myself. I am pretty sure I can be at least as content alone. I don't need to martyr myself. It is entirely possible I can find relationships that bring me more pleasure and less pain, perhaps even probable. 

Short version: Loneliness is probably better than pain and betrayal.


----------



## azteca1986

Great update FM (I refuse to use your full screen name, because you're clearly not)


Foolish Man said:


> Short version: *Temporary* Loneliness is better than pain and betrayal.


Forgive me for editing your last statement a little.


----------



## Foolish Man

So the MC we have been doing has been crisis intervention and the counselor thinks we are past that stage. I have to say the MC although being very supportive of me is definitely in the rug sweeping camp and that isn't something I am too comfortable with. 

I wrote a letter to my WW and laid out that, this wasn't "one mistake" and a few solid details of what she had done. I included that it was premeditated and ongoing, that she had engaged in an extended pattern of deception and that she had failed to attempt to work on our M but had instead been destructive. I pointed out her minimization and blame shifting. I included some details known to me that she may not have been aware I knew. It was very painful but I think it helped me in acceptance. Although harsh and blunt the tone was factual. Before I gave it to her to read I told her it was not something I wanted to discuss or hear her reply but that I needed her to understand what I was thinking.

I'm not really sure where I am at now. We are attempting R but I don't know if I can get over what she did. This was a 9 month affair that started with deliberately bringing the OM to our brand new apartment and was escalating up until the day she was caught. She has difficulty/issues in being sexual with me, but didn't in her A. I'm having real trouble seeing our M as something that can be happy and satisfying for me.

My WW has stopped the spiteful backhanded crap and is really doing a good job with much of the heavy lifting. She just doesn't seem to be able to give me what I would like and need. Having dealt with this struggle for 10 years I am of two minds one is that some more time is appropriate and another that is just plain worn out, frustrated and over it.

After 12 years of marriage (with full intent for it to be forever) the thought of seeking companionship and sex in the dating scene is depressing and frightening. I'd hate to think I am settling for something that will carry pain and not meet my needs or fill my desires out of fear, resignation, familiarity or a sense of obligation. 

I really don't know where I am heading or how things will turn out. I know these are questions I have to answer for myself, but insight and advice would be appreciated. This is a very difficult time for me. I am sad, lonely, deeply hurt, crushed and emasculated not to mention furiously angry and utterly disgusted. Work has been intensely difficult. I have had to deal with people in tragic conditions, with frankly gross wounds and on top of that motorcycle deaths. I don't have close friends and the friends I do have are pretty much of the opinion that the A was something that means I should D or at least have a revenge A.

Well just checking in with an update. Best to all.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Foolish Man said:


> After 12 years of marriage (with full intent for it to be forever) the thought of seeking companionship and sex in the dating scene is depressing and frightening. I'd hate to think I am settling for something that will carry pain and not meet my needs or fill my desires out of fear, resignation, familiarity or a sense of obligation.
> 
> I really don't know where I am heading or how things will turn out. I know these are questions I have to answer for myself, but insight and advice would be appreciated. This is a very difficult time for me. I am sad, lonely, deeply hurt, crushed and emasculated not to mention furiously angry and utterly disgusted.


This struck a cord with me. I was of the same mind at one point in time. I found the thought of dating again horrifying. I felt sad, lonely, deeply hurt, crushed and emasculated also. Your ex has had years to check out of your relationship. You just got the memo. What you need to do is protect yourself. 

Pursue R if you wish (based on the situation you described I'd say dump her, she has no remorse) but regardless which route you go be prepared. Start going to the gym 3-4 days a week. Hit the weights HARD. Don't waste time with cardio just diet if you need to. Dress better even if your sitting around at home, look good. Groom yourself. Get busy outside the house even if its going out for a beer with friends. 

You want to make it clear by how you ACT that you do not need her and you are ready at a moments notice to walk and continue life without her. So if you do dump her, it will be a seamless transition into the single life. This is how you increase your value not only to yourself but to her. Continuing to be clingy and pathetic will never get you any respect. Be your own man, you no longer have an equal partner. Stop the sappy notes, she knows how you feel she just don't give a sh!t. Start caring about you because she only cares about herself.


----------



## happyman64

FM

It is a good update.

Keep working on you and your emotions.

You have every right to feel the way you do.

Hopefully your w will continue to step up to the plate.

Give it time on whether to R or D.

HM


----------



## bigfoot

Foolish, you have said some things that I have to rebut.

First, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DATING SCENE IS FOR YOU. Seriously, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill on that one. The dating scene is big when you are ready. Thing is, YOU ARE NOT READY. Stop looking at this from a "how green is the grass on the other side" perspective.

It is not a choice of her or having to date someone else. It is a matter of whether you stay married to her. If you divorced, you would need several months of therapy just to get your mind right. Listening or reading you now, I have to be honest, you sound pitiful. Not pitiful because you wife cheated, but just pitiful. I'm not being mean. Perhaps your work is giving you some mental and emotional beating. It sounds harsh and I used to deal with murder, rape and kid cases for a living. That stuff messes with you BAD.

I also gotta say, stop looking for her to give you what you need. That means that she is essential to your healing. I suggest that you instead consider that there are two things that you need. One, you need to know if this was a deal breaker for you. That looks only at you. It has nothing to do with her. Deal breakers are just deal breakers, end of story. Secondly, if this is not a deal breaker for you, then what does she have to give you to fix your relationship with her. That is a different question. 

In short, without regard to what the dating field holds or your wife or family, just ask yourself if this was a deal breaker. If yes, end it. It will be a painful path, but, in my experience with other betrayed friends and family, it is the shortest path to happiness. If you decide that it was not a deal breaker, then you ask what does she need to do to help you heal. If she fails to do it, then you will have to accept that the deal is broken.

The first question does not care if she is remorseful, or anything. It looks only at you. good luck.


----------



## Foolish Man

Thanks for the replies.

I may seem pitiful here but I can assure you I am quite strong. This is the place I come to talk about my feelings that are painful and share my fears. I have taken steps to work on myself. I have stepped up the grooming and wardrobe choices and am working myself up to go back to the gym. I have fulfilled a desire I have had for many years and bought the motorcycle I have wanted since it went into production. I am pleased to say that in carrying myself better and being cleaned up I have noticed others look at me differently and it feels good. 

Work really has given me a beatdown lately. I am an RN in the Intensive Care Unit at a Level I trauma center in a major city. I am actually very good at handling it but some of what I have dealt with lately has been hard, patients with very limited physical recovery but intact mental status. It's tough to be hands on with someone who cant move or talk but can think. Motorcycle related deaths and severe injuries are a little scary.

I've gotten into a bad place psychologically over the years and I know its going to take some work to get out. Strangely it seems like I have allowed burdens and hang ups twist me up mentally and weigh on me, while at the core I am a pretty simple, basic and care free guy. Its odd to have that return in large waves without processing all the accumulated shyt, but it really seems as if I could just let it go. I don't know if that's avoidance or a cop out on doing the work in therapy or just the fact that I am rather good at leaving the cr*p behind and just being myself without worrying to much about blah, blah, blah.

I realize you are right in separating staying with my WW or not and dating, but they seem intricately linked. I know now that I really have to make up my own mind if what she has done is a deal breaker or not. It has some to do with her willingness to show remorse and to work to build a decent marriage but much more to do with how I feel about it. I have to say in reading what I wrote to her I ask myself "What kind of self respecting man would accept this?" and "Would a man with self respect want to be with a person who did these things?" I had really thought commitment, love, affection, comfort, familiarity and finances meant I had to make a full faith effort at R, but I have to place myself first and consider what is going to work (or not) for me.

As I process this and get myself together I really can't answer if this was a deal breaker. Part of me says "no question, this was beyond unacceptable, walk now, walk fast and walk far" another part of me says, "With time you can get over this, others have and healing takes time and work, it can be done." I just don't know if I am gathering strength to heal or to realize the deal is broken.

On top of that all I don't know if my WW can do what it takes to build a marriage I find fulfilling. She certainly seemed to be able to give many of the things I want and need to someone else but she doesn't seem very capable of giving them to me. I don't know how much patience I have left. I'm tired of worrying about her problems and if she can't step up and take care of them promptly I am just going to be done dealing with a frigid b*tch who could so easily turn it on for someone else.

In terms of her doing what it takes to help me heal I think she has come a long way and is showing real effort and it is helping. It's sad to think that the last of our marriage may be healing from this and D'ing. A part of me even feels guilty putting her through this process only to build the strength to end it, but a bigger part says tough shyt, this is the consequence of her actions. It sucks for me and too bad if its going to suck for her.

I really want to try to R but I just don't know if its possible for me or worth it. Tough questions, I think I will give it a little time.


----------



## Roselyn

Give yourself time to heal. You took your wife off the pedestal and placed her on the floor where she belongs. Her cheating destroyed your marriage. You see her as she really is. Continue on building your self-esteem. You will know how to deal with your situation in due time.

I wish you the best in your choices. You are still in rough waters. However, I believe that you are over your worst times. Be kind to yourself...


----------



## aine

Foolish Man said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I may seem pitiful here but I can assure you I am quite strong. This is the place I come to talk about my feelings that are painful and share my fears. I have taken steps to work on myself. I have stepped up the grooming and wardrobe choices and am working myself up to go back to the gym. I have fulfilled a desire I have had for many years and bought the motorcycle I have wanted since it went into production. I am pleased to say that in carrying myself better and being cleaned up I have noticed others look at me differently and it feels good.
> 
> Work really has given me a beatdown lately. I am an RN in the Intensive Care Unit at a Level I trauma center in a major city. I am actually very good at handling it but some of what I have dealt with lately has been hard, patients with very limited physical recovery but intact mental status. It's tough to be hands on with someone who cant move or talk but can think. Motorcycle related deaths and severe injuries are a little scary.
> 
> I've gotten into a bad place psychologically over the years and I know its going to take some work to get out. Strangely it seems like I have allowed burdens and hang ups twist me up mentally and weigh on me, while at the core I am a pretty simple, basic and care free guy. Its odd to have that return in large waves without processing all the accumulated shyt, but it really seems as if I could just let it go. I don't know if that's avoidance or a cop out on doing the work in therapy or just the fact that I am rather good at leaving the cr*p behind and just being myself without worrying to much about blah, blah, blah.
> 
> I realize you are right in separating staying with my WW or not and dating, but they seem intricately linked. I know now that I really have to make up my own mind if what she has done is a deal breaker or not. It has some to do with her willingness to show remorse and to work to build a decent marriage but much more to do with how I feel about it. I have to say in reading what I wrote to her I ask myself "What kind of self respecting man would accept this?" and "Would a man with self respect want to be with a person who did these things?" I had really thought commitment, love, affection, comfort, familiarity and finances meant I had to make a full faith effort at R, but I have to place myself first and consider what is going to work (or not) for me.
> 
> As I process this and get myself together I really can't answer if this was a deal breaker. Part of me says "no question, this was beyond unacceptable, walk now, walk fast and walk far" another part of me says, "With time you can get over this, others have and healing takes time and work, it can be done." I just don't know if I am gathering strength to heal or to realize the deal is broken.
> 
> On top of that all I don't know if my WW can do what it takes to build a marriage I find fulfilling. She certainly seemed to be able to give many of the things I want and need to someone else but she doesn't seem very capable of giving them to me. I don't know how much patience I have left. I'm tired of worrying about her problems and if she can't step up and take care of them promptly I am just going to be done dealing with a frigid b*tch who could so easily turn it on for someone else.
> 
> In terms of her doing what it takes to help me heal I think she has come a long way and is showing real effort and it is helping. It's sad to think that the last of our marriage may be healing from this and D'ing. A part of me even feels guilty putting her through this process only to build the strength to end it, but a bigger part says tough shyt, this is the consequence of her actions. It sucks for me and too bad if its going to suck for her.
> 
> I really want to try to R but I just don't know if its possible for me or worth it. Tough questions, I think I will give it a little time.



Don't be so hard on yourself, take it one day at a time, live in the moment don't worry about the future yet. Keep doing things for yourself, go to the gym, read books to better yourself, focus on your work, enjoy your life as much as you can. If you WW is helping you to heal, so be it, take it without guilt of your future decision, (she owes you as she created the mess, not you). No need to make any decisions now.

When you are ready to make a decision, you will know. Time changes everything.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Not that you were looking for feedback to you letter, but those were all very good solid and I dear say indisputable truths....has anything come of it?


----------



## Foolish Man

Xenote said:


> Not that you were looking for feedback to you letter, but those were all very good solid and I dear say indisputable truths....has anything come of it?


The facts included in my letter with one possible exception were all solid truths based on evidence. The possible exception was pointed out and I actually tend to believe I may have been mistaken on that one point.

As a matter of fact there was some discussion. It was appropriate discussion not going into further details in a spiteful way or disputing what was said. My WW frankly admitted she had done "all those things". She also apologized for jeopardizing my health. She was very sullen and withdrawn for some time after. She said I had clearly laid things out in a factual way thoughtfully and without excessive hostility.

A side effect has been I have realized the extent to which she actively pursued and planned the A. I was a little lost in the fog of blaming the OM. Not really the case, after he asked for kiss, she instigated and escalated deliberately and intentionally. This is coming close to a deal breaker for me. Particularly combined with the recognition of what she did for nine months running. This is a person who plotted and schemed while being all lovey dovey and passionately sexual with her OM all the time lying to my face and climbing in bed with me. I'm having a hard time finding that to be someone I want to/can have a M with.


----------



## lordmayhem

Foolish Man said:


> In terms of her doing what it takes to help me heal I think she has come a long way and is showing real effort and it is helping. It's sad to think that the last of our marriage may be healing from this and D'ing. A part of me even feels guilty putting her through this process only to build the strength to end it, but a bigger part says tough shyt, this is the consequence of her actions. It sucks for me and too bad if its going to suck for her.
> 
> I really want to try to R but I just don't know if its possible for me or worth it. Tough questions, I think I will give it a little time.


And how exactly is she helping you heal if she continues to deny that she banged OM? Still no full disclosure. And she isn't helping you out in the sex department either.

Sad to say, sexually, she still belongs to OM. I could post here, posts coming from WW about their sex with OM and how they are still sexually tied to them, but that wouldn't be much help to you right now. 

Its a pity that you haven't experienced any Hysterical Bonding (HB), the period of intense sexual activity after an affair. It's hurtful that she can spread for the OM and do the things that you are starved for. 

Did she ever quit her job? As I read earlier, OM is a coworker. What are you doing on your end to ensure NC is being maintained? Keyloggers? VARs?


----------



## Foolish Man

So we had a bit of a blow out this morning and it kept my eyes open. Classic narcissistic behavior. Somehow things repeatedly turned to the impact on her.

She went to dinner with her girl friend last night. She was calling repeatedly to let me know where she was etc. I didn't answer my phone because I was out riding. She said she felt so guilty and "I can't live this way". I pointed out the guilt might have been related to the fact she had been going out to dinner with her OM and lying to me about it and that she knew I was uncomfortable with her friend. She had shaved and discussed what to say to me if I found out/noticed with this friend. This friend had asked another friend "If you wanted to have sex with someone other than your wife, how would you do it?" She minimized that. I haven't insisted she cut off contact with this friend because she has virtually no one else to talk to. But the whole, "I can't live this way" thing is such blatant narcissism. What about the way I'm living thinking about her chatting away with someone who facilitated her A? Didn't express any concern about that. It's all about her.

There was classic projection. I forgot rules 1, 2 and 3: "Eyes open and mouth shut" I complained that she wasn't showing me the sexual interest I wanted. She countered with she was sorry she wasn't doing it on my timeline (blame shifting?). I came back with how painful it was to compare it with the timeline she had with her OM and let slip that I had established that timeline clearly with her Google search history. The immediate reaction, "So you have been sneaking around checking my Google searches?" I haven't been sneaking anything. I did that research on D Day and told her so. But the key thing was the accusation that I was sneaking around. Clearly projection as she was sneaking around for nine months or more.

She is also projecting that I am hatching a plot to lead her on and yank the rug out from under her. That's exactly what she had been doing for most of a year. I have been quite frank that while I want to and am working at R I am not sure if it will work. She said she knows I can be calculating and manipulative and that I have admitted it. I can but in 12 years of marriage I have not treated her that way. She on the other hand has treated me that way, projection.

Then she jumped on a single word. I said she had destroyed our marriage. So she said "see you said it, it's over, you should leave, or no I'll just leave". I explained what I meant, that our previous marriage had been destroyed and if we were to have something now it would be a new marriage built with work. But again the jump on a single word and the instant conclusion that it meant it was over and her willingness to walk away. I was weak and pleading in my explanation.

The argument made her late for work and she more than once said, "This means I won't get a raise at the end of my probationary period" I said being late once isn't likely to have that consequence. But again the sheer narcissism. This was a manipulation on my part, not the boiling over of feelings I was experiencing. More projection. The focus on the impact on her, without a realization that the feelings I was having and expressing were caused by what she did or compassion for what I was going through, no sign of remorse. And what about the fact that she fvcked things up and this is one of the consequences?

Then there was the "I have feelings too" "This is difficult for me too" coupled with the admission she was not and would not disclose these feelings. She said wouldn't be vulnerable and expose herself. I pointed out I had laid my feelings bare. Again the narcissist reared it's ugly head. "See this is all about what a terrible person I am. You good, me bad". The holding back and maintaining hidden feelings doesn't inspire confidence in her full faith effort to R. The whole secret pain and refusal to be vulnerable sounds a lot like a cheater's rationale.

There was the rug sweeping too. She said she is focusing on us not something else that is over and I keep bringing it back up to punish her. The statement that she is being punished every day (not true there have been days without a mention) and that "I was going to hold this over her head for the rest of her life". Oh sorry I didn't realize I was supposed to get over nine months of her having sex with someone else and lying to my face every day in one month, certainly enough not to bring it up at inopportune times (wait it was a calculated manipulation my part that's right). But it's all about her anyway. When I bring it up it's not about my pain or hurt it's just something I am doing in a calculated manipulative way to punish her (all about her and the overly severe "punishment" she is suffering). Besides she is suffering enough from the punishment she is giving herself (but keeping secret and maintaining a wall, what else is going on behind that wall?). Although that might seem like some expression of remorse it really reads like pure narcissism.

I was weak more than once and apologized for making her late and "ruining her day". I also said I was sincerely interested in and trying to R in an altogether unmanly way. I'm going to have to get over that, but at the same time I want her to know I am trying. I realize I made other weak and unmanly missteps. I think it is progress to realize this and think about handling myself better, but I wish I was better at it already. On top of it my suspicion is raised. If not a relapse to the OM where is the structure in her schema that prevents another A?


----------



## Summer4744

There is no structure that prevents a relapse FM because you keep accommodating her. She is waiting for a signal that you are a man, but you keep acting like a scared boy.

Your only chance is to divorce and separate with the idea that she can win you back and start the relationship with a fresh foundation. Only after you free her and she comes back will you know for sure that she loves you.


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## alte Dame

You deserve a much better life than this. There is joy out there, and love and pleasure. You can choose all of that. You aren't serving a prison sentence. You can choose a calmer, happier life for yourself.

Life is too short, FM, for a good man like yourself to feel trapped with a wife who doesn't really love him.

I hope you decide to choose a life for you. You may not feel like it, but you are still young. There's a whole world out there. You spend your work days helping the sickest among us. It's time for the world to give something back to you. It's out there if you have the resolve to look for it.


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## ArmyofJuan

She is CLEARLY not that interested in R but you keep pushing it and it seems you are still in denial about her feelings (and the fact she doesn't care about yours). You are in false R limbo right now and it will not end well if you don't pull your head out.

She is with you because its convenient and she knows she can manipulate you. That needs to end ASAP.

She has been calling your bluff and you keep falling for it. Call her bluff now (and she is bluffing or she would have left on her own by now). Tell her you decided you will no longer live like this and she needs to find another place to live and draw up papers. The point is you need to start making decisions and acting instead of following her lead and enabling her narcissism. 

WS's are not truly ready to R until they hit rock bottom and you have been keeping her from doing that. Let her fall and see if she comes crawling back like so many do when you finally let them go. 

You are still way too soft on her and she knows she can get away with whatever. She needs to know you mean business and you will divorce her if she even sneezes wrong. Until she is scared to death of you leaving her (for real, not the BS she said before) she will not be motivated to change.


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## bandit.45

She's not remorseful. Sometimes it takes a wayward a long time to reach remorse. Some never get there.

The question you need to ask yourself is how long do you intend to wait for her to get there?

Filing for divorce will sometimes snap the wayward out of their mindset. Sometimes they jump at the opportunity you present them with the divorce as a way to bail from the relationship. 

I'm getting the sense that she wants to bail, but like most waywards she is most concerned with her public image. She wants everyone to think she did everything she could to save the marriage, while all you wanted to do was punish her and control her. She will not end it because, ultimately, she is a coward. She wants you to be the bad guy so everyone will blame you. We see it all the time here. 

So you have to ask yourself, do you want to give her more time to see if she can turn her ship around and start showing some remorse and empathy, or do you want to die on your sword, be the bad guy, and file? I think that is the crossroads you find yourself standing at now. 

Just don't stand there too long or the devil will get ya.


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## BobSimmons

Read No More Mr Nice. Nice guy


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## lordmayhem

Agreed.s This one is not remorseful at all. Not. One. Bit.


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## ConanHub

Dude. Dump this pathetic excuse for a wife. If she isn't worshipping at the altar of your penis, she doesn't deserve a second thought.

I am very familiar with your field of work. As long as you aren't an ogre, you will have little difficulty when dating. There is huge sexual tension and many sex kittens running around in the medical field.

Cut yourself loose from this parasite.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

Thanks for replies and the support. At this point I am willing to give it some time to see if any genuine remorse emerges.

In looking back at what she did I am left questioning if she was either deliberately malicious or is incapable of empathy. Very sad for me to think that.

I also wonder if she was capable of deliberately planning, instigating and following through with what she has already done, what is she capable of and up to now? Not a comfortable place. She violated my home, risked my health, showed completely callous disregard for my feelings, how much more harm is she willing, capable and desirous of dong to me? She acted with deliberation and forethought to do things she knew harmed me, was it intentionally to hurt me? Is she currently do so and escalating?

Some might see it as weak to be scared, but to have reasonable fear of one who has acted to hurt you and to consider the possibility it was deliberately malicious seems more smart than weak. Am I just setting myself up for something even worse by being patient and willing to wait to see if genuine remorse emerges.

I don't like being in such a dark place and feeling this way about someone I thought I could trust that I though loved me. At the same time I wonder if I should be taking steps to protect myself.


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## BetrayedDad

Foolish Man said:


> Thanks for replies and the support. At this point I am willing to give it some time to see if any genuine remorse emerges.
> 
> In looking back at what she did I am left questioning if she was either deliberately malicious or is incapable of empathy. Very sad for me to think that.
> 
> I also wonder if she was capable of deliberately planning, instigating and following through with what she has already done, what is she capable of and up to now? Not a comfortable place. She violated my home, risked my health, showed completely callous disregard for my feelings, how much more harm is she willing, capable and desirous of dong to me? She acted with deliberation and forethought to do things she knew harmed me, was it intentionally to hurt me? Is she currently do so and escalating?
> 
> Some might see it as weak to be scared, but to have reasonable fear of one who has acted to hurt you and to consider the possibility it was deliberately malicious seems more smart than weak. Am I just setting myself up for something even worse by being patient and willing to wait to see if genuine remorse emerges.
> 
> I don't like being in such a dark place and feeling this way about someone I thought I could trust that I though loved me. At the same time I wonder if I should be taking steps to protect myself.


Well.... like you said at least you know you are a fool. You know you are being weak. You're trying to get the courage but your scared. I get that. You even apologized for "ruining her day". Think about that. YOU apologized to HER. The POS cheater. I bet you were legitimately sorry too. Well considering she ruined your LIFE and we already know she's still not remorseful, kind of ironic isn't it? You have NOTHING to be sorry about man. NOTHING.

I obviously don't know your wife but I know the kind of person she is all too well. The psyche of a cheater is scarily similar among the lot of them. Cheater script should be a published book. Let me try one more time to clue you in. 

She did not cheat on you maliciously. In fact, she'd rather you never found out about it and would of never told you. She's sorry she got caught but not at all sorry she did it. In fact, she more than likely facilitated the whole affair or at least strongly pushed it forward. As of this moment, she has no respect for you and does not love you at all. She is completely loyal to and sexually desires her OM. 

Your waiting around for her to come around. Trying to nice her out of it, is just you being really pathetic to her. Nothing could turn her off more. The behavior you are displaying is utterly repulsive in her mind. Letting her hang around with her toxic friend only further poisons her mind. They laugh at what a fool you are. Part of the excitement of an affair is knowing her and OM are playing YOU for a fool. They joked about not getting caught by you. 

I can go on and on and on. I don't think you'll listen. I hope you do. It's counterintuitive BUT you MUST display value. That means have some SELF RESPECT. Throw her out, file of divorce, act like she is replaceable. Why? Because SHE IS. You don't think you can do better than her? I guarantee you can, just throw a rock in a crowd of woman. Who the hell wants someone like her for a wife (besides you). You can try to work it out later if you REALLY want too but until she has that "oh sh!t, what have I done" moment, she's in control. 

It's that sense of control that made her have the affair the first place. "Foolish Man doesn't have the balls to leave me, I'll just plan B his a$$, while some stud rails me." She's selfish to the core, the girl you married was an ILLUSION. You'll never have that again. Maybe you can reconcile but you'll never trust again. And a life of resentment is no way to live. You want justice? The best revenge is living well. Life a fantastic life without her and let her be the bitter one jealous of you and the hot girl you replaced her with. 

Up to you bud. I've said my peace. It's your life. I'm routing for you. You KNOW what to do. I hope you find the courage to do it. Good Luck.


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## carmen ohio

Foolish Man said:


> . . . At this point I am willing to give it some time to see if any genuine remorse emerges . . .
> 
> I don't like being in such a dark place and feeling this way about someone I thought I could trust that I though loved me. At the same time I wonder if I should be taking steps to protect myself.


FM,

I just checked in on your thread to see how you were doing. The last time I was here, you seemed to have turned the corner and begun to act like a savvy man instead of a foolish man. So sorry to see that you have reverted to your _nom do plume._

Your decision to give her more time to show remorse, contrasts starkly with what you did when your new motorcycle malfunctioned: _"I am angry and frustrated but have been clear and firm in my dealings with the dealership."_ It's too bad you can't be equally firm and clear in your dealings with your WW. What would you have done if, when you returned it to be fixed, the dealer had treated you the way your WW is treating you? Would you have apologized for spoiling his day? No? Then why would you apologize to your WW? After all, it's your life that she screwed up and that's a h*ll of a lot more important than a motorcycle.

You say you don't like being in a dark place. Then remove yourself emotionally (and, eventually, physically) from the place you're in and find a better one. And instead of wondering if you should be taking steps to protect yourself, start acting like someone who respects himself and insisting that your WW also respect you. That's how you protect yourself in the mating game.

What you seem not to understand is that the degree to which other people respect you is inversely related to the amount of sh*t you take from them -- and this goes double when it comes to women like your WW. You keep taking her sh*t so she keeps dishing it out. Why is it so hard for you to understand this?

I am confident that, eventually, you'll get fed up with this and move on. The question is, how much more heartache will you have to suffer before you find the strength?


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## ArmyofJuan

Foolish Man said:


> Thanks for replies and the support. At this point I am willing to give it some time to see if any genuine remorse emerges.


Spoiler alert: This is going to fail.

Limbo helps them but hurts you. This is just your excuse to remain passive. NOTHING is going to change until YOU do something.


> In looking back at what she did I am left questioning if she was either deliberately malicious or is incapable of empathy. Very sad for me to think that.


She is drunk on power because she feels she has complete control of your life. She has NO respect for you because you have no self-respect. 


> I also wonder if she was capable of deliberately planning, instigating and following through with what she has already done, what is she capable of and up to now? Not a comfortable place. She violated my home, risked my health, showed completely callous disregard for my feelings, how much more harm is she willing, capable and desirous of dong to me? She acted with deliberation and forethought to do things she knew harmed me, was it intentionally to hurt me? Is she currently do so and escalating?


This is part of your denial.

She didn't do anything to you or cared one way or another how you thought, she did it because she wanted to and knew she could get away with it. You weren't in the equation. 

So no, she didn't do it to hurt you (she didn't care), she did it because it felt good. Narcissist don't think about other people's feelings, other people are just objects to them. 


> Some might see it as weak to be scared, but to have reasonable fear of one who has acted to hurt you and to consider the possibility it was deliberately malicious seems more smart than weak. Am I just setting myself up for something even worse by being patient and willing to wait to see if genuine remorse emerges.


Remorse, if it ever comes, will be AFTER you have turned your back on her and walked away. Right now you are enabling her behavior by being a doormat.


> I don't like being in such a dark place and feeling this way about someone I thought I could trust that I though loved me. At the same time I wonder if I should be taking steps to protect myself.


You are at war and she is the enemy (she sees you that way). You are still in deep denial about who she really is and "fooling" yourself into thinking she will just wake up and be normal again. She crossed a line that can't be uncrossed and you need to accept that this is who she really is, not what you want her to be. 

Nobody ever says they regret not giving a cheating spouse a second chance but the forums are filled with people that say they regret they did.


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## LongWalk

It's good that you allow yourself time to figure out what your marriage in reconcliation means.

Pardon me if I missed it but I don't remember reading how old you are. In any case, why conclude that you cannot go out and date and find a better wife. Maybe you just want a girlfriend. Do you want children? Perhaps you would but not with your WW.

Her lack of sexual passion for you could be the product of a variety of factors. She may have been bored with you for some time in bed. She may have a thing for black guys now. Maybe she was curious before. If his genitalia is a major mind movie for her, how can you compete? Only by having good sex over a period of time.

You have to be confident which is difficult after an affair. Women don't feel comfortable being penetrated by men who they consider below them on the sex ranking chart. Merely being a bit uncertain can topple you. Of course you can raise your ranking. You are working on healing.

There are some WW who feel guilty because they have changed their husbands. Broken their spirits. Caused them to withdraw. Lose confidence. 

Hit the gym. Don't engage in meaningless relationship discussion. Don't be needy.

You will figure out if you can stand being married to her within a period of time.


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## Foolish Man

Thanks for the replies and the support.

Taking a page from No More Mr Nice Guy, I made it plain she needed to acknowledge the depth of the damage she had done, show regret and work to make it better. Surprisingly she responded in a thoughtful manner and appeared to be showing some remorse. I have to say it is a killer to wonder if this is all just bullshyte she is throwing up to keep a continuing A underground. 

Her past behavior shows she is fully capable of putting up a false front while fvcking around. Hell even that she was getting off on the excitement and in "putting one over" on me. Knowing she is so completely capable of that keeps my guard up.

How truly shytty to be trying to heal from this while wondering if I am still being fvcked over. It's truly awful to feel I may just be being played for a fool again/still. It makes going all in for R a challenge. At least this time around I am going in with an awareness. I'm pretty sure my reaction to a second Dday would be more self assured than to the first. I'm also pretty sure no matter how sophisticated she is in going underground that the truth will out.

I'm going to take some time to heal and see how this plays out. Time to really get started on taking care of myself. The gym is coming soon. I'm going to get the shoes, clothes etc I need. It will feel good to take care of my own needs (she's been my personal shopper) and my own health regardless if R works. I don't want or need a maid or personal assistant. Perhaps freed of these duties she can do better job of being what I really want in a wife.

Thanks again for the comments and support, you don't know how much it means, or maybe you do.


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## Foolish Man

OMFG. The POSOM called my WW at her new job the other day. He was informing her that he was pursuing a job at there and would be going in for his second interview! My WW called me from work that day as soon as reasonably possible (in her terms) and informed me of this. She stated that she took the call unknowingly and was in front of multiple coworkers. She stated that she told him, they were not starting up where they had left off and that she didn't support him working there. She said that was as clear as she could be in the presence of her coworkers. She has made clear/agreed that if he should come to work there at that very time she would quit and leave immediately. She has said she is considering informing her work that she would not be able to work with this person or just giving her two weeks notice immediately.

I disclosed that a car which did not belong in our neighborhood and a person matching his description had been seen. She was angry that I had not told her and I explained I thought she was continuing the affair. She is saying she is afraid for her safety. I assured her that I would protect her and that the people (PI) who had been watching would continue to/resume doing so.

However when we were discussing what I knew about the POSOM in response to repeated questions, she defended him and compared his past actions to mine. Said I was only getting one side of the story. Perhaps the trouble he had gotten into was nothing that had been blown out of proportion. She said maybe the OMW was no saint. These clear red flags have let me know the fog remains. She is defending and minimizing the actions of a POS who beat his wife, pursued and had an affair with a married woman including unprotected sex, jeopardized his his children's stability etc. etc. My respect for my WW has suffered another tremendous blow. My ability to trust that she will not restart/is continuing her A is reduced to negligible. 

When I said I was likely to confront the POSOM she warned me of his being Jamaican, from the ghetto and having a gun. Sounds like trying to scare me off so she can continue her A and I won't hear something from the POS that reveals things have been continuing. She claimed she was concerned for my safety and me getting arrested. When I assured her I was capable of managing a tactical situation she pressed for details, as if wanting information to use to warn the POS. Her continued belief that I am stupid and lack insight makes it easy to see through her. I am still having trouble believing that the evil twin is so completely callous and calculating. She will remain unaware that I have a gun and will soon have a concealed carry permit. I have a respect for danger and consequences but this is a stand your ground state and I will defend myself, my family and my home and property with whatever means necessary. That said my motivation for continuing this marriage is definitely undermined.

I think it is possible that her becoming unemployed is positioning on her part to get a D settlement under which I would have to support her while she carried on her affair. Hard for me to think of the woman I married that way, but I know what she did for most of a year and that has opened my eyes somewhat to the evil twin.

As I twist in this uncomfortable limbo, I am doing what I can to take care of myself. I am eating better, going to the gym and gotten some new clothes. I wish I wasn't so socially isolated, any advice on that would be welcome.


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## MattMatt

Get a court order against him. He is a stalker,now.


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## Nucking Futs

MattMatt said:


> Get a court order against him. He is a stalker,now.


Better yet, tell your wife to do it.


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## azteca1986

What drama!


Foolish Man said:


> I had not told her and I explained I thought she was continuing the affair. She is saying she is afraid for her safety. I assured her that I would protect her and that the people (PI) who had been watching would continue to/resume doing so.


You accuse her of continuing the affair. She now "fears for her safety". Why?

DO you not think you're being manipulated? She's getting you to fight for her. This is not the ideal dynamic for reconciliation. Supposedly to protect her from the nasty man she was sleeping with for over nine months and, let's not forget, picking wedding rings.



> I think it is possible that her becoming unemployed is positioning on her part to get a D settlement under which I would have to support her while she carried on her affair. Hard for me to think of the woman I married that way, but I know what she did for most of a year and that has opened my eyes somewhat to the evil twin.


I think you're right about with your first thought. I suppose she envisages sitting home all "alone" whilst you get to and work to pay the bills? But you're wrong about the "evil twin". Both parts are her. The complete her.


> As I twist in this uncomfortable limbo, I am doing what I can to take care of myself. I am eating better, going to the gym and gotten some new clothes. I wish I wasn't so socially isolated, any advice on that would be welcome.


You're in a limbo of your choosing. You need to distance yourself from all this nonsense, because you can't think straight when you're in close proximity and clearly in a co-dependent relationship to your wife.


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## ThePheonix

Foolish Man said:


> However when we were discussing what I knew about the POSOM in response to repeated questions, she defended him and compared his past actions to mine. Said I was only getting one side of the story.


That's womanese for saying she puts this cat on at least as equal footing and on the same level as you. Take my word for it.


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## Graywolf2

Foolish Man said:


> I disclosed that a car which did not belong in our neighborhood and a person matching his description had been seen. *She is saying she is afraid for her safety.
> *
> 
> When we were discussing what I knew about the POSOM in response to repeated questions, she defended him and *compared his past actions to mine. Said I was only getting one side of the story. Perhaps the trouble he had gotten into was nothing that had been blown out of proportion. She said maybe the OMW was no saint.
> 
> *
> When I said I was likely to confront the POSOM *she warned me of his being Jamaican, from the ghetto and having a gun.*


She needs to pick a story and stick to it.


----------



## Foolish Man

She is working the gaslighting and blame shifting to the max now. We had an involved talk in which I mentioned something she wrote in the timeline I asked her to write out. She said I had stated I didn't intend to read it but that I would bring it to the MC. The actual fact is that I told her after she had written it that I started to read it and stopped thinking it was better handled with the MC. When I asked her to write it out I definitely made clear that it was to be read and addressed immediately. She worked the gaslighting as well as she could to say I had said I didn't intend to read it then but deal with it at the MC. This is not the truth but her gaslighting. She then turned things around to issues at the very beginning of our marriage that involved HER disappointment and pain and stacked up as many attempts to portray me as not being honest with her. Total blame shift and gaslight. No dealing with what she had written or it's clear ugly malice. She even said she didn't remember what she had written, I was cherry picking one part, but no dealing with the fact of what she had written. 

To be explicitly clear she wrote that she was amazed at the size of his d*ck and that she liked sucking it and (shock) that he liked it too. No dealing with the fact that she wrote that and thought that was appropriate for a timeline and to share with the MC. I think both her writing that as part of the timeline and her failure to acknowledge and address doing so makes clear her lack of concern (hell her frank malice).

Her work towards reconciliation and the heavy lifting she has done pales in comparison to this type of intentionally hurtful malicious behavior. Also in the last week when I asked how she could suck another man's d*ck and come home and kiss me, she replied, "*for the most part* it wasn't right after" So clearly this ugly hurtful shyte is not a thing of the past or a faded fog.

She also stated that I couldn't make her leave, showing her intention to manipulate the situation for her maximum gain. She has said "I could be one of those b*tch wives and demand to be supported in the lifestyle I am accustomed to, but I would not and I expect nothing from you." Something tells me she was lying.

It has become clear to me that she cares nothing about me or my feelings and is concerned only with herself. This should have been obvious from her actions before but it is now. This current ploy to become unemployed is now transparent. I am drawn to remember a post in another thread that said, "it's only money". Quite frankly I will protect my financial position as best I can but in the long run not being psychologically and emotionally abused is more important than money and I will find a way to get by one way or the other. I'm sure she will have some satisfaction from screwing me as much as she can but this will be the final cost I pay. As expensive as it might be the finality makes it worth it.

I should have listened to the advice I received here from the start but at least I can work to take care of myself and better myself for my own benefit now and let this painful ugly shyte fade into the past as I move forward to a brighter future.


----------



## Foolish Man

Nucking Futs said:


> Better yet, tell your wife to do it.


I have told her that this is the necessary step and she has expressed (talk, not action) a willingness to do so. As the PI work I had done was "off the books" I do not have the additional evidence of his presence in our neighborhood. I'm not sure if the verifiable facts are sufficient for a restraining order. Continued PI work though more expensive will be under license and documented.


----------



## Foolish Man

LongWalk said:


> It's good that you allow yourself time to figure out what your marriage in reconcliation means.
> 
> Pardon me if I missed it but I don't remember reading how old you are. In any case, why conclude that you cannot go out and date and find a better wife. Maybe you just want a girlfriend. Do you want children? Perhaps you would but not with your WW.
> 
> Her lack of sexual passion for you could be the product of a variety of factors. She may have been bored with you for some time in bed. She may have a thing for black guys now. Maybe she was curious before. If his genitalia is a major mind movie for her, how can you compete? Only by having good sex over a period of time.
> 
> You have to be confident which is difficult after an affair. Women don't feel comfortable being penetrated by men who they consider below them on the sex ranking chart. Merely being a bit uncertain can topple you. Of course you can raise your ranking. You are working on healing.
> 
> There are some WW who feel guilty because they have changed their husbands. Broken their spirits. Caused them to withdraw. Lose confidence.
> 
> Hit the gym. Don't engage in meaningless relationship discussion. Don't be needy.
> 
> You will figure out if you can stand being married to her within a period of time.


I am 52. I am pretty certain I am not looking for another wife, a girlfriend is plenty. I don't need or want to fall into another codependent relationship. She has not had sexual interest in me for quite some time. We have had a sexless marriage. I own my responsibility for accepting that. It's pretty clear she is into black guys and that his genitalia is a major mind movie/physical thing for her. I don't really think that is something I am interested in "competing" with. I am who I am and if that is not what interests/thrills her there are certainly others for whom it is. Good sex is hard to have with a disinterested partner not to mention one who brings disgusting images to mind (unprotected sex with a man who does that while married with who knows how many partners is more than just an image but a health concern). Pretty sure I'm not interested in having children but with an open mind I'm not entirely sure. As to my place on the sex ranking chart, although she may not place me very high, I am quite sure there are others who do. Regarding the guilt of a WW wife for breaking my spirit, I don't need pity and my spirit is to strong for one persons shyty actions to break. I have a lot to offer as a person and as a sexual partner just because it is not what one person wants doesn't mean there aren't plenty of others who feel differently. Thanks for the input.


----------



## Foolish Man

azteca1986 said:


> What drama!
> You accuse her of continuing the affair. She now "fears for her safety". Why?
> 
> DO you not think you're being manipulated? She's getting you to fight for her. This is not the ideal dynamic for reconciliation. Supposedly to protect her from the nasty man she was sleeping with for over nine months and, let's not forget, picking wedding rings.
> 
> I think you're right about with your first thought. I suppose she envisages sitting home all "alone" whilst you get to and work to pay the bills? But you're wrong about the "evil twin". Both parts are her. The complete her.
> You're in a limbo of your choosing. You need to distance yourself from all this nonsense, because you can't think straight when you're in close proximity and clearly in a co-dependent relationship to your wife.


She said she fears for her safety because he has been around our home while I am at work and because he is now pursuing a job where she works. I realize this is manipulation and blame shifting (I didn't tell her about the out of place car and man matching his description the PI saw). I see her manipulation in setting me up to "fight for her" and the delight and power rush it gives her. I agree this is not a good situation for R. Her claims that she is now afraid of the POSOM with whom she planned a wedding are contradicted by her defense of him. I may have been a fool but I am much less so now. I think you're right she pictures herself supported by my working while doing whatever (whoever) she wants. That is what she did for most of a year, it seems obvious that is what she envisions for the future. I appreciate your insight that both the wounded lonely and evil twin are pieces of a whole. That makes sense and explains how she can be so convincing. You are right that the relationship is codependent, I obviously need to gain an independent sense of self. Exactly how to resolve this limbo remains a question I don't yet have an answer for.


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## Foolish Man

ThePheonix said:


> That's womanese for saying she puts this cat on at least as equal footing and on the same level as you. Take my word for it.


I hear you. That she puts such a POS on the same level as me speaks volumes about her values and judgement. For her to equivocate us shows she does not respect or appreciate the man I am. I respect myself too much for my worth and quality to be assessed by someone who can't make the distinction between a faithful, loyal husband with a strong moral compass and a lying, cheating POS who pursues other men's wives and doesn't even bother to use a condom. Anyone who can't see a clear difference lacks the capacity to understand my worth.


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## Foolish Man

ConanHub said:


> Dude. Dump this pathetic excuse for a wife. If she isn't worshipping at the altar of your penis, she doesn't deserve a second thought.
> 
> I am very familiar with your field of work. As long as you aren't an ogre, you will have little difficulty when dating. There is huge sexual tension and many sex kittens running around in the medical field.
> 
> Cut yourself loose from this parasite.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While your statements are quite harsh, I hear the wisdom of what you say. I am more patient, understanding and forgiving than you seem to be, but I have my limits. My patience is both for others and for myself. I gather my strength, assess my weaknesses and allow for others to take some time.

Regarding my field and the opportunities there, I prefer to maintain professional boundaries. I am certainly not an ogre and once I am ready to date, I don't think there will be a problem even if I avoid workplace romances. I'm not ready for dating but when I am I don't anticipate much difficulty.

It may seem like weakness but I have the strength and commitment to give my WW a genuinely fair chance at R. I am not so foolish as I was and see through many of her games. If she can find herself and be a decent and kind person I will give her the chance to show me that she can be what I want and need in a wife. If she cannot I am big and strong enough that a single leech will not bleed me dry.

Perhaps I remain a fool in being willing to extend such a chance. Perhaps I am assuming a martyr role in being willing to endure such shyte. The fact is I am far stronger and more caring than anyone can see. I will survive and the further pain and burdens I bear are of my own choosing. If I cannot find what I need and want in my marriage I will move on, perhaps not in the model presented here but I will have a clear conscience and an inner peace. Until death befalls me it is not the end. My life has been and will most certainly continue to be a rich and rewarding adventure.


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## convert

Foolish Man, regarding her quitting her work and if this is to set you up for spousal support, that usually does not fly in divorce court.

I have seen people even get fired on purpose thinking they could get out of spousal support, it does not work most of the time.


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## Clay2013

I don't comment to much these days but I just can't see how your wife is all that remorseful. I understand you have a forgiving heart and that is great but at what point in time is the line really crossed. I think just the way she talked about the POS and how she enjoyed those things with him would have sent me over the edge. I believe people that deserve forgiveness are the ones that have earned it and honestly it sounds like she has you as being the one that needs this. 

I would personally have called her bluff. As soon as she said those things about him and oral I would have put her on notice. Then when she followed up with how she expects to live I would have told her that I wasn't surprised she could be so horrible and its the very reason I was getting away from her for good. Cheaters are the ones that have to fight for the relationship not the other way around. 180 is about you taking control back over your life and resetting the person you are.

How much longer do you really want to put up with this and even if she turns around will it really be worth it. True reconciliation takes years to get things turned around. That is years you could have been focusing on finding a much better woman and person. 

You deserve so much more than what you have set your self up for. 

Clay


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## ConanHub

Alright Foolish, it takes all kinds. I am a pretty good student of human nature though and it doesn't seem that the woman you married respects the type of man you are.

I don't think you are making a good investment.

I think you are throwing good money after bad, so to speak.

Time is more valuable than money to me so I make sure I don't waste it on undeserving people. 

You can always make more money but you will never get time back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. My statements are no where near as harsh as your WW's actions.

Make sure you are forgiving someone who is trying to be forgiven.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix

Foolish Man said:


> While your statements are quite harsh, I hear the wisdom of what you say. I am more patient, understanding and forgiving than you seem to be, but I have my limits. My patience is both for others and for myself. I gather my strength, assess my weaknesses and allow for others to take some time.


If you set your standards low, so will everybody else and you will pay the price. If you plan on giving this woman even more of your blood, sweat, and tears hoping she may change and appreciate you, you're only going to be disappointed and more of your life will have passed you by. 
Take my word for it; I probably know woman as good or better than any male on this site. Her perception of sexy men does not include you or me. Some women are attracted to men of a different race. I've got a female acquaintance who is African American, only dated Caucasian men and is married to a Caucasian man. 
You're starting to sound a little like a guy who is willing to be ground into powder by a woman he just cannot turn loose of and you're trying to convince yourself and others its because your so patient, understanding and forgiving. That may well be but keep in mind, she's using that as a opportunity to kick your azz nine ways of Sunday and in the end, she'll physically ditch you. Mentally she's already gone. For me, the only "heavy lifting" I'd want her to do is loading her baggage in the taxi as she prepares to leave. There are better options out there.


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## Foolish Man

convert said:


> Foolish Man, regarding her quitting her work and if this is to set you up for spousal support, that usually does not fly in divorce court.
> 
> I have seen people even get fired on purpose thinking they could get out of spousal support, it does not work most of the time.


I'm glad to hear that. I don't want to take any unnecessary financial hits.


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## Foolish Man

Clay2013 said:


> I don't comment to much these days but I just can't see how your wife is all that remorseful. I understand you have a forgiving heart and that is great but at what point in time is the line really crossed. I think just the way she talked about the POS and how she enjoyed those things with him would have sent me over the edge. I believe people that deserve forgiveness are the ones that have earned it and honestly it sounds like she has you as being the one that needs this.
> 
> I would personally have called her bluff. As soon as she said those things about him and oral I would have put her on notice. Then when she followed up with how she expects to live I would have told her that I wasn't surprised she could be so horrible and its the very reason I was getting away from her for good. Cheaters are the ones that have to fight for the relationship not the other way around. 180 is about you taking control back over your life and resetting the person you are.
> 
> How much longer do you really want to put up with this and even if she turns around will it really be worth it. True reconciliation takes years to get things turned around. That is years you could have been focusing on finding a much better woman and person.
> 
> You deserve so much more than what you have set your self up for.
> 
> Clay


Thanks for stopping in to comment. The statement she made about oral was in the timeline shortly after DD, but the "for the most part" comment was very recent. She apologized for the latter saying she was striking back because she felt attacked, that it was wrong etc. I'm not sure when the line is crossed but it is definitely very close for me. 

She has done a good deal of accepting responsibility and acknowledging what she did was wrong. In discussions about problems that existed/exist in our marriage she always notes they are in no way an excuse or justification for what she did. She is being transparent to a large degree. She ended her toxic friendship, taking responsibility and admitting wrongdoing. She notified me promptly about contact and is clear that should the POSOM come into her work she will leave immediately and permanently. She has fully accepted that this is a consequence of her actions. She has apologized on several occasions, more often she has admitted she "made a horrible mistake" or did something very wrong.

She is working for the M and doing some heavy lifting in the R. It doesn't seem to rise to the level of fighting hard for something she deeply wants. I'm a little on the fence about this. Is she doing as much as she is capable of and my expectations are unreasonable or is she half hearted? A tough question with some significant considerations (her actual capacity, the broad range of stressful factors, her lack of social support etc.) I think if she pursues IC very soon and how things go after that has begun will be telling.

How much longer I am willing to put up with this? Not much longer. I am starting to heal from the impact of DD. I am looking at my WW with open eyes and despite my patience, caring and love for her, she must be/become someone who can meet my needs, fulfill my desires and be a decent and worthwhile partner. My standards aren't as low as some might think and my evaluation is going to based on actions, my open eyed observations and the totality of my feelings. With the amount of negative feelings and my awareness that decency is a long walk for her, it is going to take serious concerted effort on her part.

Thanks for a place to vent and for the support. Please know that frequently what I wind up posting is the worst of it and as laid out above there has been mutual effort and some progress.


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## Foolish Man

ConanHub said:


> Alright Foolish, it takes all kinds. I am a pretty good student of human nature though and it doesn't seem that the woman you married respects the type of man you are.
> 
> I don't think you are making a good investment.
> 
> I think you are throwing good money after bad, so to speak.
> 
> Time is more valuable than money to me so I make sure I don't waste it on undeserving people.
> 
> You can always make more money but you will never get time back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your acceptance. In some ways I agree with you, perhaps she does not actually respect the man I am. I think maybe she thinks she should, but I am not sure that is what is in her core. She has actually said as much that she has learned that the type of man she was seeking in an affair is not what she should be looking for but that the kind of man I am is. Again this is words, deeds and her genuine feelings are still in question.

I don't feel like I am wasting more time and effort on a doomed endeavor. I am going through the healing process. I am gaining an understanding of who I am and of the woman I am married to. I have been quite clear that this is a chance to attempt R and that the likelihood of success is limited and dependent on real progress. I'm comfortable not having a specific timeline but my patience is limited and I have clear boundaries.


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## Foolish Man

ConanHub said:


> P.S. My statements are no where near as harsh as your WW's actions.
> 
> Make sure you are forgiving someone who is trying to be forgiven.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely not. I hope my statement wasn't misinterpreted. Even the harshest of commenters here have shown concern for my well being and support for me. Both obviously absent in my WW's actions.

My WW has said she is trying to earn my forgiveness. I can see attempts on her part to understand herself, accept herself and to better herself. She is making efforts to be a better wife, the questions I am left with are, is it enough effort and is the level of success enough for me.

Thank you for participating in my thread. In reading much of this forum I have gained great respect for your input.


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## Borntohang

Contact HR and let them know of the situation. Rest assured, unless this guy has a skill that no one else has, they'll not hire him! They don't need the liability of having known the circumstances before hiring him!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish Man

ThePheonix said:


> If you set your standards low, so will everybody else and you will pay the price. If you plan on giving this woman even more of your blood, sweat, and tears hoping she may change and appreciate you, you're only going to be disappointed and more of your life will have past you by.
> Take my word for it; I probably know woman as good or better than any male on this site. Her perception of sexy men does not include you or me. Some women are attracted to men of a different race. I've got a female acquaintance who is African American, only dated Caucasian men and is married to a Caucasian man.
> You're starting to sound a little like a guy who is willing to be ground into powder by a woman he just cannot turn loose of and you're trying to convince yourself and others its because your so patient, understanding and forgiving. That may well be but keep in mind, she's using that as a opportunity to kick your azz nine ways of Sunday and in the end, she'll physically ditch you. Mentally she's already gone. For me, the only "heavy lifting" I'd want her to do is loading her baggage in the taxi as she prepares to leave.


I think I have reasonably high standards. I haven't in the past but I have changed in part because of this, in part through natural growth and maturation.

I strongly suspect you are correct about her perception of what a sexy man is. I'm also quite sure she will not admit this. In this area I am being patient and working on being the best version of myself I can. If I don't feel passion and desire from her I will realize and accept that you are right and move on. I have made strides in my self esteem and I am now willing to simply realize she is not into me or my "type" if that is the case. I've been around enough to know some women find my very sexy and attractive and some don't. If my wife is in the latter category I can accept that and I will set us both loose from a pathetic codependent attempt to pretend otherwise.

I'm not being ground into powder. I am healing and growing while at the same time dealing with (and admittedly putting up with) the shyte of a marriage shattered by infidelity. I am too strong to have my azz kicked. I have a sense of my own worth. I have a clear conscience and am proud of the moral character I have developed. In the past (before this M) I was not a very good person but I made a choice to become better and have rather successfully lived out that choice. I can be sincere, kind and honest without being a doormat. I know my lines in the sand and even without a timeframe I have a sense of the limits of my patience. I am not willing to sacrifice myself or my chance for happiness out of love for a woman. If she doesn't "check back in" and can't or won't give me what I want and need, I can and will walk away. I don't think my patience so great that this will go on until she "ditches" me. My realization will probably come first or she will turn out to be/become a fulfilling and worthwhile partner. I am moving from desperation/dependence/low self esteem towards self acceptance and actively seeking to have my needs and desires met.


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## GusPolinski

Having read through the thread up to this point...


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## Foolish Man

Borntohang said:


> Contact HR and let them know of the situation. Rest assured, unless this guy has a skill that no one else has, they'll not hire him! They don't need the liability of having known the circumstances before hiring him!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is under serious consideration. A significant mitigating factor is that my WW is not happy in the current job and probably will me moving on anyway. There is also the possibility that the POSOM will not continue to pursue the job. My WW was clear it was not acceptable and he may have other reasons influencing his actions now.

Just to sound it out, you are suggesting I write a letter to HR stating, 

_It has come to my attention you are considering hiring *POSOM*. I am informing you that ** is a married man who pursued my wife, *WW* at a previous job probably with actions that meet the standard for sexual harassment. This lead to ** and ** having a workplace extramarital affair. *WW* has made a written request that *POSOM* have no contact with her. ** has violated that request by calling at your place of business and by pursuing employment there. I feel it is important that you have this information in making decisions._

Some input on this would be greatly appreciated. My WW and I have discussed her bringing this to her bosses attention in a number of ways. At this point we have left at she will continue to just do her job, leave immediately if the POSOM comes on staff and she will continue to look for other employment. This situation has completely caught me off guard and some input from the veterans on this forum would be very helpful.


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## azteca1986

Foolish Man said:


> Some input on this would be greatly appreciated. My WW and I have discussed her bringing this to her bosses attention in a number of ways. At this point we have left at she will continue to just do her job, leave immediately if the POSOM comes on staff and she will continue to look for other employment. This situation has completely caught me off guard and some input from the veterans on this forum would be very helpful.


I wouldn't consider myself a veteran, but I'll reply anyway. You WW can't keep on running away from her problems. This is a chance for her to:

1. Face a consequence of cheating on you by admitting her part in betraying you. In full to her current employer
2. She can show her loyalty to you and not OM by writing the letter herself
3. Stop letting you make excuses for her. Any man can pursue our wives. They only have to say "no" every time they are supposed to

I'm still mulling over some of your recent posts and when I have time, I'll reply to those.


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## Dyokemm

"You can always make more money but you will never get time back."

Agree 100%.....you can also never get your honor, dignity, and self-respect back if you sacrifice them on the altar of trying to R with an unremorseful, disrespectful, and disgusting cheater.


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## aine

I get the feeling you are doing most of the worrying, chest beating and work on this R. Your wife caused this mess so she has to clean it up. If she is not willing to go the extra mile then you have a WW who is not remorseful at all and you have to consider your future with her. What is to stop her from doing it all over again?

The only way to keep a marriage is to be prepared to let it go and walk IMO. You are not showing that kind of resolve with your wife and appear to be *****footing around everything.

Secondly this man sounds like a real POS who is pursuing her even when asked not to, why should she leave her job? She needs to blow him out of the water and show him she means business. It appears she has more trouble upsetting him than you, not a good place for you I'm afraid.


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## Hoosier

Man! I had such high hopes for this thread, oh well. Just another story of a guy who can't face reality. 

First off, so sorry you are here. No one should have this kind of pain inflicted on them, trust me I understand. (55 male, married 30 years before DD.)

2nd. You need time to figure this out. Got that, I did not work for a year, now almost 4 years later just now getting back to "normal". Yes it will take a while to fully understand you deserve time to figure it out.

3rd. You want to save your marriage if possible. For sure!

All valid points, and in your current state very confusing. But let me explain something. You need IC, extensive IC. You need to figure out why you allow yourself to be controlled by another, why you are willing to settle for someone who treats you like crap. Dude, she hasn't had sex with you for two years! She is doing things to another joyfully, things she will never do to you. You wonder if she is doing enough to save the marriage? If you have to ask the answer is obviously no, yet you shrug your shoulders and decide to think about it some more, but don't worry/watch out! YOU ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.....some day.

distance and time...that's what you need. Get away from her, then I have hope you can begin to decide and ACT, I have hope for you, but proof is in the pudding.


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## BetrayedDad

Foolish Man said:


> I think I have reasonably high standards. I haven't in the past but I have changed in part because of this, in part through natural growth and maturation.


I almost spit my coffee out when I read this. I can't even fathom what you were like before if this is an improvement. Your entire response to this tragedy has been incredibly weak even by TAM standards which promote R foremost, if possible. As of right now, you are doing the heavy lifting, the OM continues to actively pursue your wife and your wife continues to rug sweep and deflect. 

There is no remorse here. She will not fight for your marriage. You're propping the whole thing up. As soon as you let go, the whole relationship will implode and she'll be in the sack with another guy before the ink is dry on the separation agreement. This is the kind of relationship you cling onto in your self imposed limbo? 

The title of your thread is very fitting...


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## TryingToRecover

Foolish Man said:


> I think I have reasonably high standards. I haven't in the past but I have changed in part because of this, in part through natural growth and maturation.
> 
> I strongly suspect you are correct about her perception of what a sexy man is. I'm also quite sure she will not admit this. In this area I am being patient and working on being the best version of myself I can. If I don't feel passion and desire from her I will realize and accept that you are right and move on. I have made strides in my self esteem and I am now willing to simply realize she is not into me or my "type" if that is the case. I've been around enough to know some women find my very sexy and attractive and some don't. If my wife is in the latter category I can accept that and I will set us both loose from a pathetic codependent attempt to pretend otherwise.
> 
> I'm not being ground into powder. I am healing and growing while at the same time dealing with (and admittedly putting up with) the shyte of a marriage shattered by infidelity. I am too strong to have my azz kicked. I have a sense of my own worth. I have a clear conscience and am proud of the moral character I have developed. In the past (before this M) I was not a very good person but I made a choice to become better and have rather successfully lived out that choice. I can be sincere, kind and honest without being a doormat. I know my lines in the sand and even without a timeframe I have a sense of the limits of my patience. I am not willing to sacrifice myself or my chance for happiness out of love for a woman. If she doesn't "check back in" and can't or won't give me what I want and need, I can and will walk away. I don't think my patience so great that this will go on until she "ditches" me. My realization will probably come first or she will turn out to be/become a fulfilling and worthwhile partner. I am moving from desperation/dependence/low self esteem towards self acceptance and actively seeking to have my needs and desires met.


No offense, but....

Reasonably high standards for what? A wife who sends pictures of wedding rings to her OM? Is there a scale or continuum for evaluating that type of wife? 

Coming from a woman, you would know it if your wife found you sexy and desirable. She's not directing the slightest amount of attention to you and particularly not in that fashion. 

Compared to many, you may already have the patience of Job for this situation. Make no mistake, you are behaving like a doormat and you are sacrificing yourself for your love of this woman. 

Also, the BS should be in control of any reconciliation but you are far from any type of R. 

Additionally, from my perspective and perhaps that of many women, I would have no attraction whatsoever to a man who did not demonstrate his confidence, self-respect, self-worth, and esteem via his actions. In other words, I'm not attracted to what could be described as a wimpy man. I'm a BS and my fWS did not dictate the terms of reconciliation but he does not, not by any stretch of the imagination, come across as a wimp. 

Not saying you ARE a wimp, because I have no idea either way, but you are coming across like one here. This won't get you any respect from your wife. Also keep in mind that being a total a**hole isn't the opposite of wimp; however much your WS may deserve that right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory

Foolish Man said:


> Just to sound it out, you are suggesting I write a letter to HR stating,
> 
> _It has come to my attention you are considering hiring *POSOM*. I am informing you that ** is a married man who pursued my wife, *WW* at a previous job probably with actions that meet the standard for sexual harassment. This lead to ** and ** having a workplace extramarital affair. *WW* has made a written request that *POSOM* have no contact with her. ** has violated that request by calling at your place of business and by pursuing employment there. I feel it is important that you have this information in making decisions._
> 
> Some input on this would be greatly appreciated. My WW and I have discussed her bringing this to her bosses attention in a number of ways. At this point we have left at she will continue to just do her job, leave immediately if the POSOM comes on staff and she will continue to look for other employment. This situation has completely caught me off guard and *some input from the veterans on this forum would be very helpful*.


If you want advice from an HR Manager, here's mine.

Most employers value the opportunity to get a reference from a current employee on a perspective applicant; whether it be good or bad. Your wife needs to talk to the HR Manager there and determine the proper procedure for doing that. 

It may be by talking to the HR Manager or HR may refer her to the "hiring" manager. If she is requested to put that in writing, then she should do it; but it needs to be from her, not you. Either way, if she includes the words "harassment" or "sexual harassment" in describing him; that will get their attention. Another thing that will get their attention, is if she mentions that; "she would hate for the company to get sued for both sexual harassment *and* negligent hiring, in as much as she has given the company fair warning about his past behavior - if God forbid he does that again."

That should pretty much do him in if he hasn't been offered a job yet. That is; if you can trust your wife to follow through 100 percent. I'm not sure if you can.


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## ThePheonix

Foolish Man said:


> Some input on this would be greatly appreciated.


Take my word for it, you don't want to put this writing. It will be interesting to know how she handles it if he comes on board. If she doesn't follow through by quitting, the thing speaks for itself. 
At any rate, if the only way you can keep her away from him is to keep him away from her, you know where you stand.


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## GusPolinski

ThePheonix said:


> Take my word for it, you don't want to put this writing. It will be interesting to know how she handles it if he comes on board. If she doesn't follow through by quitting, the thing speaks for itself.
> *At any rate, if the only way you can keep her away from him is to keep him away from her, you know where you stand.*


Agreed.


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## badmemory

ThePheonix said:


> Take my word for it, you don't want to put this writing.


If doing that would keep that OM from getting that job or any other job; I'd do it in a heartbeat despite the small risk. As long as you keep it accurate and non-subjective, the truth will be your defense.

If I would have had that same opportunity with the POSOM I dealt with, I'd have agreed to have it notarized as well.


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## ThePheonix

badmemory said:


> If doing that would keep that OM from getting that job or any other job; I'd do it in a heartbeat despite the small risk.


There are two issues from my perspective: 

One, if an extramarital affair with "your" wife is sufficient to keep him from getting hired via morally unfit for the job, why wouldn't it be sufficient to fire your wife for the same reason.

Two, the only thing that may be defensible because it is true is your wife's sexual involvement with this cat. Pursuing your wife at a previous job, actions that meet the standard for sexual harassment and the like are personal perspectives and speculation. (unless she filed a charge of sexual harassment) 

Anyway, a lot of people reading such a letter are going to look at your wife as an adulteress and you as the old fashioned definition of a desperate cuckold trying to keep the other man at bay.

Personally I think seeing what she will do if this guy get hired is an excellent test to see how much credibility she now has.


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## badmemory

ThePheonix said:


> One, if an extramarital affair with "your" wife is sufficient to keep him from getting hired via morally unfit for the job, why wouldn't it be sufficient to fire your wife for the same reason.


The OP suggested it was sexual harassment on the OM's part. If that's true, then she shouldn't be subject to disciplinary action. If it's not true, then she shouldn't report it. But I can tell you that a large number of successful sexual harassment claims start out with consenting sex; before things go bad.

In regards to my perspective as a BS; I will admit that hitting the POSOM where it hurts, would be my larger motive. Keeping them apart would just be a bonus.


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## ThePheonix

If sexual harassment is an issue, it should be only her reporting it and not him (again my perspective). It just ain't as cool when coming in from a "hearsay" source. He may be able to raise "conditional privileged" (protecting family) as a defense in any related lawsuit for liable brought on by the OM, but its iffy. In this situation, it wouldn't be a big stretch for the plaintiff to show the OP's statement was done out of contempt, hatred, or resentment, rather than for protection of his family if the statement doesn't clear the "truth" issue. He may be looking at a pyrrhic victory at best. Considering the speculative nature of his marriage, he would need to weigh things carefully.


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## azteca1986

Foolish Man said:


> I appreciate your insight that both the wounded lonely and evil twin are pieces of a whole. That makes sense and explains how she can be so convincing. You are right that the relationship is codependent, I obviously need to gain an independent sense of self. *Exactly how to resolve this limbo remains a question I don't yet have an answer for.*


The answer is very simple. You are, as you admit co-dependent, and the only way to pull free from the malignant sphere of influence of your remorseless WW is to distance yourself from her. Easier said than done, I understand. But that is the answer. If you want to become independent, there is no other way.

I think it would help you to read kwood's thread, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/248594-3-times.html. He is also co-dependent. He strikes me as a decent man and father who just can't get his head around how his WW (still cheating) has treated him. This is up to and even beyond his recent divorce.

As a third party observer you will be able to see what she put him through and also unable to believe how hard he found to pull away from her.

In your own posts there's a sense of resolve and patience as you wait for your WW to come round, perhaps a certain nobility too. And of course your deep, deep sadness. Like kwood, I think you're too close to the problem to see your own situation for what it is - a cheating wife who's playing the victim (she's co-dependent too) and unwilling to face up to the consequences of her own actions. 

Your WW should be doing everything to try and heal you. Not rubbing your face in her adultery by telling you how much she enjoyed sucking her boyfriends tool (whatever size it may be). That you still stay, is not strength (as you see it), or weakness (as others see it) but you co-dependcy.

You're in a limbo of your own choosing. I hope you see that.


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## badmemory

ThePheonix said:


> *If sexual harassment is an issue, it should be only her reporting it and not him* (again my perspective). It just ain't as cool when coming in from a "hearsay" source. He may be able to raise "conditional privileged" (protecting family) as a defense in any related lawsuit, but its iffy. In this situation, it wouldn't be a big stretch for the plaintiff to show the OP's statement was done out of contempt, hatred, or resentment, rather than for protection of his family if the statement doesn't clear the "truth" issue. He may be looking at a pyrrhic victory at best. Considering the speculative nature of his marriage, he would need to weigh things carefully.


I agree Pheonix. I advised OP in a prior post that she should be the one to report it; but that I wasn't sure she could be counted on to do so. The OP can choose to insist she does however.


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## Foolish Man

So I ordered MMSLP and will implement. NMMNG has been a big help. If MMSLP doesn't lead to the results I am looking for I will have my answer (she's just not into me). If it does I will offer a chance for real honesty and see what comes of it. Very sad to me to consider with all the work and healing we have both done, it may just be flogging a dead horse, but better to realize that and let it go. There has been some significant remorse (although often really self pity) on her part and some heavy lifting. She just doesn't seem to be shouldering the load with the effort and determination required for success (sadly it is likely because she is not that into plan B). The continued gaslighting and lying has to stop soon and completely (my patience is near it's end). If she doesn't want what I am and have to offer enough to come clean, maintain honesty and do whatever is necessary she will be free to seek whatever she wants soon enough.

Time for IC and more work on myself. I need to improve to be able to rebuild a decent relationship and more importantly to gain a strong comfortable sense of self. I'm not going to get anything decent out of life if I'm not ready and capable of making it happen and being a part of it.

Thanks again for all the support and advice. How could those discovering an affair be guided here before they make all the typical mistakes? If I'd been here and paid attention I would be divorced and offering a chance for R so much more clearly understandably and so much less beta seeming. Hindsight...


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