# Need more from the men



## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

So I have taken advice from the men here and applied (though i am still questioning myself about why I bothered and can't say if it is a relationship worth saving) it did something. It remains to be seen what that is, but it did something... so thanks... I hope 

Anyway.. need more male perspective..

Say I know a man who is, frankly, TERRIBLE at communication (not just love, just BAD at it all around) Also just ill equipt on other areas relating to human interaction (reading people, acting in a way to get a result he wants etc... I will get into more later if this goes anywhere)

Now... I want to help him fix some issues, of course for my sake, but also for the sake of other important people in his life where his lack of skills are causing damage (ie his kids!! but that's for later). It is simple to see where things have to change and in some cases there are obvious and simple things that can be done to improve his position. (I can give example if needed but for now I will leave it there)

I have done the straight up "you know if you do THIS.... this will happen" kind of direct instruction (My bad) because he resents the idea of teacher/student and I understand why (my issue, it just comes out that way) I also know that unless he learns a few things, there is no way he and I (or for that matter he and his kids) can ever work... Call this all what you will, the fix the man syndrome or whatever... it's there. 

Now even if I am just leaving him better than I got him later... how do I approach these subjects and how to do I encourage specific changes without being the "teacher"? What do you silly men need


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>(my issue, it just comes out that way)<<

Fix this first.

There's not a man on earth who will respond favorably to teacher/student instruction from his woman.

And, if he does/would, you'd likely lose interest, because you'd come to see him as a child.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Conrad said:


> >>(my issue, it just comes out that way)<<
> 
> Fix this first.
> 
> ...


Which would be why i am asking for a better way to approach this (keep in mind I have been a teacher and was in school for it and it is completely natural for me, BUT I am also willing to put work into NOT doing that where I shouldn't) You told me what I know, now tell me what I don't know...

I don't want to treat him like a child, but then he acts like one and it's hard not to. So you gots anything useful fer me?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Does he see the things you see as "issues"?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

He openly admits to sucking at things, but cops out with "it's just the way I am" but i can tell from other things he says that he wishes it was different (esp when he talks about the kids and in what he says during our discussions) Often promises to work on things, but in all honestly I don't think he knows how to (hence wanting to point out the obvious and the easiest changes)

But yes, he understands his communication causes issues (but likes the easy way so cops out after 5 mins of effort to "its just who i am")


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

woodstock said:


> He openly admits to sucking at things, but cops out with "it's just the way I am" but i can tell from other things he says that he wishes it was different (esp when he talks about the kids and in what he says during our discussions) Often promises to work on things, but in all honestly I don't think he knows how to (hence wanting to point out the obvious and the easiest changes)
> 
> But yes, he understands his communication causes issues (but likes the easy way so cops out after 5 mins of effort to "its just who i am")


He refuses to go to counseling?

How about if you went first - as a demonstration of good faith - to see who can quit saying, "that's just how I am" first?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

He REFUSES to go to counseling, not sure if he thinks it makes him weak or what but he refused to put his kid in counseling (so he is 19 and never even got through freshman year and is forced to deal with a lot that puts him in a bad place) he did put him in rehab but ignored everything the counselors suggested for his exit and continued success. I don't get it, but it's in his head that counseling is some terrible thing. I think he went ONCE with his ex to marriage counseling and must not have liked what he heard (maybe things on his end were pointed out? don't know, never asked).

I have spoken (over the phone) and sat once at my school with someone. It wasn't JUST about him but involved him. Stopped going for reasons of... let's say I go to a catholic college and felt uncomfortable discussing certain things knowing the catholic stance. Anyway, I would go with him, but it would not help much alone... (and I am not covered for it and it would be a cost I can't put out ATM) So I do things like come here, hoping to gain something, and working to make sure I can use what I gain (would love if he would do something of the sort, but that is NEVER gonna happen... ESP on a computer)


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Have you tried positive communication.

I mean their is a world of difference in saying something like

"can you wash those damn pots"

and

"would you mind washing those few pots whilst I do x,y,z and then we can maybe go catch a movie"

in other words, its not barking an instruction, its putting over if he does something, their is a positive outcome for him at the end of it.

Sort of like a work scenario where a supervisor has to give the subordinate a telling off not for doing something. Use a motivational technique by saying something like, When you did this, that was great and i'm really grateful, what we now need is just that little extra bit and we can really show our customers we mean business adn we get extra orders as a result etc etc 

A lot can be seen/heard in just how something is put across.

I don't mean walk on eggshells, but put a positive thing on it, he maybe just stuck in a rutt feeling that worthless, he can't be bothered making any effort to address it?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Woodstock,

First you have to answer if you REALLY want to fix this man. Really! Maybe your just incompatible, and that's that.

In the end, he's the one that is going to have to fix himself, as he is the one responsible for his own personal growth.

I used to have a hard time communicating. I was a bit shy, but mostly because I didn't grow up in a social environment, so I didn't really know how. But it was up to ME to fix that in myself, as I knew it was a hinderance on my personal interactions and business interactions. So, I took it upon myself to read tons of books, and participate in toastmasters. After much work, problem solved.

So, do you want to spend an enormous amount of energy fixing this man, or just realizing you need to spend that energy finding someone that really is compatible with your personality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

I have tried, kind of... well ya I did. But some of these issues are not just about "dishes" and such. They are quite real, and unfortunately if they are not fixed soon, they will miss any chance of working out (again... kids) There is a habit on his side not to hear much unless you are yelling it LOL Some of this started when I was ASKED to help, and just gave suggestions, along with why I thought those suggestions would work, as well as something to back them up so as not to show I am not talking out of my arse (ya know, my kid is younger, so there is the idea that I cannot know what to do... never mind education or just knowledge right?) Anyway... the head banging on wall feeling I got did push me to be not as nice as I could have/should have, but since tat first approach was useless, just looking for more opinions/options so IF things go anywhere again, I have anew approach. (I can't let the things drop completely as I have my own needs, and I am completely unable to watch someone I care deeply for either set themselves up for future heartache, or to hurt their relationship with their kids, or be detrimental to their child's growth. You don't by and watch a friend walk into a street with a bus coming, you either grab them or say "STOOPID... street, bus, ouch... umm don't walk there") It goes a bit more complicated than that, but I know if we are to try (still not sure) these issues HAVE to be dealt with somehow. 

Given where he is, what he knows and what he is willing to educate himself about... solutions to problems like these are kind of my job to figure out, then bring to the table. I don't want to bring to the table JUST what he needs to to, but what I need to do as well (since he is unable to say, word it, or offer a suggestion)


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

The first wrong path you’ve taken woodstock is trying to “fix” or “change” somebody else. But I think you’ll have to walk that path and gain knowledge through actual experience for a very long time before you get it.

Now, if you plan to be a life coach then that’s different. The first thing a life coach gets from their client is their client’s “commitment to change”. The only commitment a life coach accepts is a financial commitment. So if you can get from 150 to 500 dollars an hour from your client so that you can coach him in the changes that he agrees that he needs to make … then by all means go ahead and become his life coach.

Bob


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Woodstock,
> 
> First you have to answer if you REALLY want to fix this man. Really! Maybe your just incompatible, and that's that.
> 
> ...


Totally get that, and quite frankly it may end up there. BUT should it turn out that he DOES want to change, he is not going to know where to start, what to do or where to go for help (or be able to easily get his head ejected from butt in order to go FOR help LOL) SO..... if he wants to change.... I would help, and would have patients to see if he at leasts gets a real start going. 

Yes, I am a little crazy, maybe a glutton for punishment, don't know when to quit.... whatever the damn reason, I am here in this position. If I am gonna be here, I figure I might as well be productive (even if it ends up being at someone else's benefit, at least I will be able to say I handed him off better than I got him LOL)

Since I can't seem to just let go and walk away (really I probably should, but don't) hell, why not do something LMAO MAYBE just MAYBE it will work out for me who knows... he shocked the crap out of me twice in a week for crying out loud (though I also made a few changes for myself so not floating all the blame here)


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

AFEH said:


> The first wrong path you’ve taken woodstock is trying to “fix” or “change” somebody else. But I think you’ll have to walk that path and gain knowledge through actual experience for a very long time before you get it.
> 
> Now, if you plan to be a life coach then that’s different. The first thing a life coach gets from their client is their client’s “commitment to change”. The only commitment a life coach accepts is a financial commitment. So if you can get from 150 to 500 dollars an hour from your client so that you can coach him in the changes that he agrees that he needs to make … then by all means go ahead and become his life coach.
> 
> Bob


Every man I have been in a relationship with has changed me, given me things that are now part of me, helped me grow, changed me and in may cases, the relationship did "fix" things in me. Kind of part of what we are supposed to offer each other. Now granted, maybe it's not supposed to be about it happening intentionally, I get that. But if he can begin to grow, then we can grow together (I am not looking to get to a point and stop here) And like I said, even if I can help him get on track at least with his kids then if it doesn't work out with us, sure I will be hurt, pissed, mad whatever, but two kids and one man will have a better place in each other and in the end... knowing that will feel better, and be there more than the resentment and hurt (that goes away, but what he can still salvage with at least his kids, can last forever). So the one it will really hurt in the end is myself... I get it... oh well, can't seem to stop my silly self from going back LOL 

I have issues :scratchhead: :banghead::crazy:


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Random thing that came up in my head. Light Aspergers/Autism?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Is it about elping out with the kids too (as you mention them a few times).

If, so, I felt hopeless with mine, and the only way it hit me hard was that I was left to it. My other half said one day, i'm off to the shops, bye. And left me dumfounded and with the kids. I grew up a hell of a lot after that.

Does he need dropping into a scenario to kick his butt?

While ever you are doing everything to help, he may just see it like that, he doesn't need to, because you are doing (or trying) to do it for him.

Until, and I mean, Until, he admits a problem, he won't see one. Or is oblivious to it, because he see you taking charge of it.

Does he know what he will eventually lose, is he clear on that?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

woodstock said:


> He openly admits to sucking at things, but cops out with "it's just the way I am"


Is this your partner? 

I don't see how this is a "cop out". The cop out is a value judgment that you are placing on him. People should be free to be who they are. THEY chose which things they decide they want to change.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

So, does he have male friends that can have an intervention, so to speak, if what he's doing is going to cause untold emotional damage to kids, others, etc?

Guys typically get offended when the SO tries to fix us, because first: your pointing out weaknesses to us. Second: men don't like to show weakness to their mates, at least consciously. Third: every time you point out a weakness, it's just something else that gets stored away up in our brain bucket of why you don't like us, even if that thinking is irrational....think of it as a lack of admiration from the SO.

If a guy friend tells us we need to get our heads out of our A$$, we get in a fight, throw some punches. Bleed a bit. Go for a beer together. Then realize our buddy was just being honest with us. There is no risk of our guy friends not thinking we are less in their minds, cuz they're guys and guys don't think that way. It may be more comfortable and accepting to him to her a guy say it.

Just my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Random thing that came up in my head. Light Aspergers/Autism?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny you soul say. I was originally set up with said guy by his SIL (neighbor of mine for 8 years now) About 1.5 years into my relationship with him she finally decided to clue me into the fact that she seriously thought he had some issue of the sort in order to explain some of what appeared to be an inability to to communicate properly in some social settings. Not a thing that is in any way noticeable by just looking, something you see after KNOWING him. I have considered it but since it is so NOT obvious, it is hard to say if it is something along those lines, or just a lazy guy.

Also, much of his family think that his son also suffers from some kind of disability and have thought so since he was quite young (more so as he ages) This apparently includes cousins in his age group and social circles. They have floated the idea that he may be mildly retarded, but again... hard to put a finger on it (there is definitely some kind of deficiency, just not sure whether it is emotional or intellectual) BUT at the same time, no one ever pushed getting a professional opinion. the family is VERY caught up in the idea of dirty laundry and keeping it a secret at all costs? Me, I can't believe the kid was ever left to get to where he is without a LOT of attempt at any help possible, but maybe that's just me.

Either way, if it is an actual issue, it is not one I am qualified to see, and not one that screams that, but sometimes whispers it


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Neil said:


> Is it about elping out with the kids too (as you mention them a few times).
> 
> If, so, I felt hopeless with mine, and the only way it hit me hard was that I was left to it. My other half said one day, i'm off to the shops, bye. And left me dumfounded and with the kids. I grew up a hell of a lot after that.
> 
> ...


Kind of tried dropping him into a hypothetical scenario, BEFORE it became a real scenario (this kid has also had at least 5 friends in the last few years (since I have known him) bite it via purposely trying to eat a train in motion) There is a lot to fear. I think he gets that he is likely to lose them in more ways than one, but then the next sentence is about how he thinks people just work themselves out and calls himself an optimist (not kidding I swear that happened)... Sometimes I wish I could just take charge of the issue and fix it (it can be fixed with work and time and a strategy... never perfect but WAY better, that's obvious, and so are some of the strategies) BUt I am not sure he would "get it" till it was too late and even then, I can't say for sure it would sink in like you would expect it to


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> So, does he have male friends that can have an intervention, so to speak, if what he's doing is going to cause untold emotional damage to kids, others, etc?
> 
> Guys typically get offended when the SO tries to fix us, because first: your pointing out weaknesses to us. Second: men don't like to show weakness to their mates, at least consciously. Third: every time you point out a weakness, it's just something else that gets stored away up in our brain bucket of why you don't like us, even if that thinking is irrational....think of it as a lack of admiration from the SO.
> 
> ...


Well, I have been sitting right there when family (brothers) have said exactly the same things I say, but they have pretty much given up and become enablers to the situation (ya, know, better to hide the dirty laundry than to clean it) though they have all made the same complaints TO me (and told me at one point they hoped my influence would help him in certain respects since I just choose not to take certain crap, esp from kids) and he does not talk to friends about such things "because you don't do that, it's private".

And vthome.. I get that, and would by it, if he did not let slip so often that he does not like it, that he knows it's a fault ad he knows it has consequences on his kids. He has also admitted shutting down when frustrated (easily) lashing out (he and his kids have pounded each other like boys in a school yard) and "washing his hands of a situation" when it gets hard. *insert head banging on wall here LOL oh wait..." :banghead:

so ya, I still see it as a cop out.


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

ok, the more I read, the more I see Everyone in his life trying to do it for him or help him.

Has anyone thought that he can actually see this, and feels so low and that much in a rutt that he feels completely helpless because he see's everyone trying to interfere? (just a thought) 

Positive scenarios he needs where he can do something on his own (no interferance or instruction from anyone), feel good about doing it and seeing something worthwhile at the end.  I don't know, ask him to build a garden shed/store or something to put kids toys in or something 

I also have a autistic nephew, and can see a hell of a lot of similarities, so don't rule that out as someone as already said...


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Umm, the kids are 19 and 24, I think it is down to the fact that there is little time left to do a few things (he kinda let it go too long?) LOL Their toys HAHA I don't want to know WHAT THEIR toys might be... TMI HAHA Lots of bongs, pipes, papers, bottles, and I make my imagination stop there HAHA

the few times I have seen him make a move for the good, I say, that was a good choice, and try to point out HOW it's working or might and encourage him to stick to it, and try even if my facial gesture to stop him from ruining one thing by doing another. I really think it is a situation where he has NO clue, and his instinct is to enable the kids (in order to be a friend which they turn into using him for what they want) in bad directions. One may end up OK, but will also end up resenting the crap out of his dad when he grow up (already does but not enough to stop playing the game to get what he wants, which he has in turn begun to do with everyone, most insincere, tell ya what you want to here to get what he wants kid i have seen in a LONG time) the other is the big worry... Not as able to turn anything around on his own, and no own providing him with tools to help in a real way (maybe handing them to him but with no instructions on how to use them?) 

Have gotten a half step here and there by using the questioning approach as opposed to telling "what do you want to see happen?" "what do you think might do that?" "what do think what you did will end up doing" then sometimes there is an AH HA moment, but doesn't last long enough for action, or is not followed through with.


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

sorry, i assumed your kids were "liitle ones".

being 19 and 24, has he been like this since thay were born?

Maybe its been like this so long he doesn't know how to change (or more likely, want to be bothered changing now) which in that case, after sooo long, I really wouldn't know what to suggest


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Can I ask who we are actually talking about?

just gone back to your original post, and its says "lets say I know a man"....

You ahve another thread in the Family/Parenting section where you talk about being a single parent..

Just missing something here, who is this "Man" your are referring to?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

From what I can gather from how he tells stories, what the fam has said, and where his relationship is... he was there to take them for a god time, but not to instill discipline, only punishment in the form of ugliness, and did not take the time to teach much but depended on them to learn from just watching (no explanation no discussion, it was on them to figure it out) and his example I don't think was nearly what he thinks it was. I don't think he realizes they saw everything, not just what he hoped they would?

Not sure..

Also gonna say right here that ya, of course some of this is skewed since it is coming from me,though I have tried to be as objectively honest in my telling of it as I can be in my position. Not sure how much of a spin I am putting on this, can just say looking at it that it I could definitely do worse. 

I don't want to feel like I am looking for people to take my side or to somehow gang up on him (he's is not here and that may not be the right words but it's as close as I can come right now) I am just looking for insights, suggestions etc... just in case what is happening in that relationship goes somewhere, I don't want to remake MY mistakes, I want to be prepared before an issue comes up and these issues WILL come up... (that i can promise should it go anywhere again)


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Neil said:


> Can I ask who we are actually talking about?
> 
> just gone back to your original post, and its says "lets say I know a man"....
> 
> ...



NOT the father of my child.... NOOOOOOOO HAHA... No, this is a man (actually the only man since the babydaddy) that I was in a relationship, significant one, for the last three years full of ups and downs, ending with mostly downs, and this issue being a big part of that.

Right now just working on very basic attempts at communication in which we respond and don't react to each other, and me working to draw (drag, pull, whatever you want to say) some things from his side so I can understand more.

Should this communication move on to anything, down the road the issues I am talking about here WILL most definitely come up and BE issues, so just thinking how to handle it, as well as if it's worth it to go any further than the OMG actualy conversation last night in which I actually learned something from his side (still in shock here LOL)


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Let me also say, FAR from being perfect myself, as time went on I became more likely than not to allow my frustrations to dictate how I communicated (leaving me wondering if things are fixable should I readjust a little DUH... probably banging head as we speak, just not feelin it yet) but I figure I find out how to attempt NOT to get there again (still can't pin point why I want so badly for this to work, other than I keep leaning towards wrong or unhealthy reasons, but I am here now, so whatever... make the best of my own insanity)


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

woodstock said:


> Let me also say, FAR from being perfect myself, as time went on I became more likely than not to allow my frustrations to dictate how I communicated)


Sounds like you need to Man up!

Sorry...couldn't resist!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Sounds like you need to Man up!
> 
> Sorry...couldn't resist!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



LMAO Kinda what I am trying to do now? LOL Well, lets say... "Cowgirl up?" HAAAAAAA


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And, if he does/would, you'd likely lose interest, because you'd come to see him as a child.



This.

Considering how vague woodstock is here and elsewhere, I'm pretty sure this dynamic would manifest. It doesn't sound like she has a specific problem. It sounds like she wants to "change" her husband. Or, he might just be a social retard, but if you have kids with him I think this isn't a sudden discovery. Why'd you marry him?


I'm pretty ****ing sure my wife lost a lot of respect for me b/c I started individual counseling at her quite justified requests. I mean a lot of respect. A huge amount. Even though she was right about 80% of the way.

She started asking for "status reports" from my counseling sessions, like she was testing me to see if I talked about the "right" thing. That was how I saw it, at least. I'd look at her kind of funny and tell her briefly (and honestly) what I talked about, b/c I felt like it would help me be more "open" about, you know, stuff in general.

Then she'd come back with "did you talk about ____ with your therapist" with some condescension, just a little, in her voice. Since I was working on trying to be open and honest, usually, I'd say "no". Did this seem controlling to me at the time? Not at first. But does it seem that way now? Absolutely. A couple of times she's outright criticized my therapist because I've said he doesn't talk very much in sessions. I've never responded beyond something like "well, that's just what he does".

I might be making this up, but I'm fairly certain I was being tested. Because at one level it *was* an honest question. She did want to know, and it wasn't to test me. And it didn't really seem like there needed to a boundary there. I mean I'm in therapy for my sake, but that should have helped "us", too, right? But at another level it wasn't honest or forthright at all. There was no right answer. Maybe there was, and I didn't find it. Answer "right," and it's approval-seeking. Answer "wrong," and it's being clueless. The approval-seeking thing would get weird, b/c I'd be so confused she'd ask that I'd seem kind of hesitant. I'd talked for an hour. What did I talk about? I don't understand. Do you want play-by-play or a highlight reel?

I realize now the appropriate responses should have been more stringent. "Well, gee, I would have talked to the shrink about that but I forgot. I'll call you from his office next time so you can remind me". "Hmm, that's funny, I don't remember you ever having completed a dissertation in psychology. Did you do that the other weekend while you were away?" "I was there for almost an hour, I talked about a lot of stuff. Want to sit on the couch and listen to the recording?" etc.

****, I feel naive!


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

woodstock said:


> working on very basic attempts at communication in which we respond and don't react to each other, and me working to *draw (drag, pull, whatever you want to say) some things from his side so I can understand* more.
> 
> Should this communication move on to anything



This may be me completely misreading this, but "draw some things from his side so I can understand" is a red flag, IMHO. It's one thing to "get" a message, or not get it. It's another to try and "understand" how someone even could give that message, because you'll never be able to get to the very bottom of it.

If you are "trying to understand" you are might just be intellectualizing your disapproval. That's not a good trap to fall into b/c then it starts to seem like there's an argument that can be won or lost, instead of a person that you're trying to change.

Just my experience, though. You might mean something completely different.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

What I mean by draw, is that it is work to get anything to work WITH. Hrm... He says "I miss you" I say "what do you miss about me" he says "i don't know, I miss you" I say what about me?" he says I don't know... you know... YOU" I say I don't really know, explain" So basically it is HARD to pull out beyond the surface. If I go with what he gives me, tell him what I think he means... he says.. "No, you're wrong" I say.. "OK what about it is wrong" he says.. "You're just wrong" well.... get the picture? This not even about going very deep, we are still working in puddles, trying to at least test the kiddie pool here LOL just enough basic info so that if he says "You know" maybe i will? And ya, I am talking that basic LOL


I can see where it looks like that, and hopefully we can work towards a deeper understanding of each other, but right now the depth I am looking for is not really scuba diving material... just barely in need of rain boots here LOL


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

less_disgruntled said:


> This.
> 
> Considering how vague woodstock is here and elsewhere, I'm pretty sure this dynamic would manifest. It doesn't sound like she has a specific problem. It sounds like she wants to "change" her husband. Or, he might just be a social retard, but if you have kids with him I think this isn't a sudden discovery. Why'd you marry him?
> 
> ...


OK, first not husband (talked about, but not even close) and the vagueness here is simply because I don't feel like typing out long drawn out stories and will end up going all over. Trying to keep it vague to keep it on track here. In life I am very specific, but then the person I am being specific with is already PART of the details and therefore pretty much privy the WHOLE story... So no, I am not quite like this in RL, just here in order to gain some much needed communication skills in general, as well as in this specific case (I present a problem in a way that will get me information I am seeking rather than a long drawn out analysis of the whole thing all at one shot)

AS for your wife? If my SO saw a therapist, hell yes I would ask questions... 1... to know how it is working, 2, because YA there are insecurities there becuse ultimately YOU want to be the one they talk to, 3.. If things are going well, you want to be part of that 4... You want to be able to support and encourage, but you need to know what to do.. 5.. you are hoping to hear it is going in a way that will be god for you 6... husband/wife... secrets suck 7.. Sure, we want to hear you say it if we were right about something because DAMMIT you would too!! 8.. DUH we CARE 9.. we want to make sure it is working FOR the marriage, not against it 10... Therapy is a very intimate thing and it will hurt either side to know that all that intimacy is being shared with someone else, and that you can say these things to a stranger and not us....

yup, I am sure there is more, but that is just the instant things I come up with when I presented myself with a "what if he...."

IN my case... there would also be "OMG thank god, it's about time!!! PLEEEEEEEEZ listen to what is said, PLEEEEEZ make use of the suggestions you get, and PLEEEEEZ let m share in it with you so I can know what I have to do to help you"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Less,

Do yourself a favor and become acquainted with fitness testing.




less_disgruntled said:


> This.
> 
> Considering how vague woodstock is here and elsewhere, I'm pretty sure this dynamic would manifest. It doesn't sound like she has a specific problem. It sounds like she wants to "change" her husband. Or, he might just be a social retard, but if you have kids with him I think this isn't a sudden discovery. Why'd you marry him?
> 
> ...


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

woodstock said:


> What I mean by draw, is that it is work to get anything to work WITH. Hrm... He says "I miss you" I say "what do you miss about me" he says "i don't know, I miss you" I say what about me?" he says I don't know... you know... YOU" I say I don't really know, explain" So basically it is HARD to pull out beyond the surface. If I go with what he gives me, tell him what I think he means... he says.. "No, you're wrong" I say.. "OK what about it is wrong" he says.. "You're just wrong" well.... get the picture? This not even about going very deep, we are still working in puddles, trying to at least test the kiddie pool here LOL just enough basic info so that if he says "You know" maybe i will? And ya, I am talking that basic LOL
> 
> 
> I can see where it looks like that, and hopefully we can work towards a deeper understanding of each other, but right now the depth I am looking for is not really scuba diving material... just barely in need of rain boots here LOL


Ok. No disrespect, but if I told me wife I missed her, and she started grilling me like that, picking apart my feeling, I sure as heck would start thinking that it's just not worth the hassle of getting the third degree for trying to be affectionate. Are you trying to validate something that you need validation on? 

"I missed you today, honey."

Correct response:
"aww. That's sweet. I missed you too!"

Also, your being too teacher-ish. It looks like your talking down to him so you understand what he means, thinking like a woman. Think like a man....there is no hidden agenda. He missed you. All of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Here's how this could go:

you could pour all your energy into trying to make him exactly what you want him to be, and avoid focusing *primarily* if not *exclusively* on your own "issues" (for lack of a better word)---specifically, what is not enough for you, and why? Get to the bottom of that, not the solutions to his shortcomings. 

If at some point he seems good enough in your eyes to marry, you marry him.

If he made all the appropriate changes for your approval only, chances are they aren't authentic, and underneath it all, you're stuck with the same guy you have right now.

AND...the same YOU that you are right now.
Only now the stakes are higher because you're married now. 

So you either keep picking on him, or you finally realize that it's time to finally look inward.
Do you think it'll be easier or harder to do that at that point, than it is now?

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

OK, so it is someone who said "I miss you" but never once called, never once tried to get that across in ANY way, not even close... I was wondering "Really? I never would have guessed..." As for fitness testing, I get what folks are talking about there, just don't necessarily buy into it. Sure we test each other, it happens, it has to (esp after trust has been stressed or broken) Not a bad thing... so... whatever on that....

I have an issue where much is said, but often either nothing in behaviour backs that up, or the behaviour says all the opposite of what is said. SO... words are cheap (on going thing there) So I need more clarification on what is meant (even more to it, but I hate the long stories LOL)

And I am not looking for perfection or one sided changes, I am patiently waiting to hear from him what he would like to see different in me, along with what I would like to see different in myself... Everyone needs to grow though, and thought is that it would be nice to grow together, giving each other what the other needs, sharing, getting over bumps and other crap together..

And again.. not married...

I will promise, that when I hear them, I will provide his side of what he thinks I need to change (not that I can't guess a lot of it, and will agree with probably half, that's not bad I think, and it's a lot to work with... Again, I have no expectation of perfection, but a give and take would be nice, compromise, and BOTH working at it, since then you can both enjoy what you create together... 

Also I understand the process, I am not looking for quick fix, just signs of what if can be, if that's what he wants it to be. I don't want it just for my approval but also so that he might reflect what he appears to want to be, has mentioned he wished he was, and so he does not have to introduce himself as "a crappy father, and man who doesn't "get" women, and is no good to anyone" (ya, that's real and right from him, no jk)

Again, if it doesn't work out, maybe i will leave him better than I found him LOL (not to mention come out better myself than when I went in... that's never a BAD thing)


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Maybe he doesn't want you to change in any ways?
Maybe that's why you haven't heard it??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Less,
> 
> Do yourself a favor and become acquainted with fitness testing.


That's what I'm agreeing on here, but to be honest it isn't the biggest issue w/ our marriage. There's at least three, maybe four, other things I'd put ahead of it and they're not "fitness"-related at all.

This one is just the most head-****ing one, b/c I really should be in counseling but lose my wife's respect b/c of it. I guess the ultimatum there is: "look, I can stay in counseling and you can stop prying and stop making demands on my behavior, or I can stay in counseling and you can leave. We can talk about it when you realize this is not a venue to control me" etc.

Thing that bothers me is that now I'm afraid to even comply with a single damn request she makes. Trust has been breached.

So this is a big issue but the long way around.

Worst part about it was the things my wife wanted me to change really are things I should change. I never would have realized how much difficulty I had been making for myself without her drawing my attention to that.

But I didn't see that I was giving up a boundary. After all, I was the one who was resistant to counseling, and who started it without ever telling her. Hell, I sent myself to the psychiatrist w/out telling her, either. So it was my decision, right? I definitely wasn't seeking approval from her when I did any of this.

The first time she started asking questions I even thought at first it might have been an honest question. Third or fourth time, though, I started to realize there was a pattern here. Dumb thing was I kept thinking "this feels strange b/c I'm struggling w/ openness (sort of) and confidence (no) so I should be open about instead of dismissive." Then, when she asked me what I talked to the *psychiatrist* about I realized something was up. Psychiatrist. You know, your drug dealer. So: "About how Lexapro makes me drowsy and changes my appetite if I take more than a quarter-tablet." Better response next time: "About a drug that makes it impossible for me to hear my wife's inappropriate lines of questioning. Are you making dinner now?"

Which is why I think the long response from woodstock isn't totally honest. You care? Um, not as much as you think. Ask yourself again, then again: is there maybe just a hint of passive-aggression in here? And when you find it, stop it. It's childish and immature.

Still, it's a little disheartening that I was doing the right thing--going to counseling, I still am--and that becoming a sign of weakness.

IDK, if I have to wrest control back over something like this, which wasn't even her decision, I'm really not all that interested in being around her.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Ok. No disrespect, but if I told me wife I missed her, and she started grilling me like that, picking apart my feeling, I sure as heck would start thinking that it's just not worth the hassle of getting the third degree for trying to be affectionate.


This. It's called "learning". Which is why:



> Also, your being too teacher-ish. It looks like your *talking down to him* so you understand what he means, thinking like a woman. Think like a man....there is no hidden agenda. He missed you. All of you.


It's also called "fishing for compliments". And it's also called "being unable to take a compliment", which is probably the bigger thing going on here. That's not on him. He offers a compliment, you reject it, you demand he elaborate it, and it's still not good enough.

Guess what? He's going to stop. And you want to know why you are still "in puddles"?


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Maybe he doesn't want you to change in any ways?
> Maybe that's why you haven't heard it??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have heard it but not with enough information to actually make changes.. Can also read from behavior that he can SAY "i am fine with things" but actions that that is obviously NOT the case...so, I am left to figure it out which does not always end well (though i have gotten lucky a few times and hit the nail on the head)


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

I try very hard to not to be passive agressive (I put it all right out there, but I suppose there are times when it looks that way when i am trying to figure out how to approach a subject or perhaps start a discussion (not a fight).. but most times, I tell it like it is (with him). I am not gonna wait for him to figure it out (good lord i would be waiting till the sun died and was reborn! LMAO and he KNOWS that!)

I do have serious issues of my own which I consciously try to work on (though would be nice if I wasn't the only one working but hey... ya, resentment much? see I get it) And as for compliments, not fishing for compliments (i like to to know when he thinks I look nice, or likes something I did but that's not it) I am looking for the why because the words have become just sound without meaning. He can SAY something now, that maybe once would have meant something, but now... nope... need more to believe it. (asked him once if he understood that and after explaining what he did show me as opposed to what he THOUGHT he was showing me did agree) So when I say "what did you miss" I kinda want to make sure he just doesn't miss having someone to "hang out with"...as he and I have had discussions about whether he wants a relationship or a beer buddy with certain benefits (a f-friend) He swears he wants the relationship so... I ask him to elaborate to make sure (and to reassure me that i am not just another beer buddy who happens like doing some of the same odd things he does). I have been put in a position where for now, I need that constant reassurance. Not saying I always will, I of course hope to some day just take his word for it (it was a nice feeling when I could) but that takes time to get back.

But... back to the whole "how to approach this" thing......

Now if I STILL get from him that he does wish he could be better at communication in general (with all people that is, not just me) how to I go about pointing out how to do that so that I do not come off as teacher/student, even though to some degree that's what it is.

(We will get to what I need to work on once he gets to me about what he is looking to see happen, or would like to happen as I will want your opinions there, but instead of going off me guessing what he will say, I will wait on that)


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

woodstock said:


> I have heard it but not with enough information to actually make changes.. Can also read from behavior that he can SAY "i am fine with things" but actions that that is obviously NOT the case...so, I am left to figure it out which does not always end well (though i have gotten lucky a few times and hit the nail on the head)


Can you see why someone who gets interrogated when he offers you a simply throw-away compliment just might be reluctant to open up about other things? You test him for something as simple as telling you he misses you. Of course he's not going to open up about anything deeper than that, he fears (and apparently rightly so) what the response is going to be!


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

less_disgruntled said:


> Can you see why someone who gets interrogated when he offers you a simply throw-away compliment just might be reluctant to open up about other things? You test him for something as simple as telling you he misses you. Of course he's not going to open up about anything deeper than that, he fears (and apparently rightly so) what the response is going to be!



This goes WAY the hell back, and the questioning came when the actions confused the words for me (along with an explanation as to why I need more to believe the words) That is just whats going on right now and I truly don't buy the words at face value without something to back them up simply because I have not had any reason to for too long. I did once, that was lost, and I can't give that back until the fear of being hurt is lessoned. I had heard the "I missed you too" before, other times, turned out it did not mean much then, so why would it now.... kind of a proof is in the pudding point in the relationship. Show me the money? whatever you want to call it. I laid it out that I need more to believe his words, and probably will for a little while (in order to know his effort is real and not just to "shut me up right now") but I WANT to go back to not needing that. Told him that's what it is and if that is too much for you, or if you can't understand where I am coming from, or can't back it up, then don't try..... He tried so I guess he gets it (or is hoping I was just talking and one shot at effort will fix it and he will get laid?)


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> Funny you soul say. I was originally set up with said guy by his SIL (neighbor of mine for 8 years now) About 1.5 years into my relationship with him she finally decided to clue me into the fact that she seriously thought he had some issue of the sort in order to explain some of what appeared to be an inability to to communicate properly in some social settings. Not a thing that is in any way noticeable by just looking, something you see after KNOWING him. I have considered it but since it is so NOT obvious, it is hard to say if it is something along those lines, or just a lazy guy.
> 
> Also, much of his family think that his son also suffers from some kind of disability and have thought so since he was quite young (more so as he ages) This apparently includes cousins in his age group and social circles. They have floated the idea that he may be mildly retarded, but again... hard to put a finger on it (there is definitely some kind of deficiency, just not sure whether it is emotional or intellectual) BUT at the same time, no one ever pushed getting a professional opinion. the family is VERY caught up in the idea of dirty laundry and keeping it a secret at all costs? Me, I can't believe the kid was ever left to get to where he is without a LOT of attempt at any help possible, but maybe that's just me.
> 
> Either way, if it is an actual issue, it is not one I am qualified to see, and not one that screams that, but sometimes whispers it


Well, Asperger's is like this. It is not something you notice in daily life. And not in their appearance. They just have a hard time noticing things we clearly notice. Check a movie once in which 2 characters fall in love. Especially if it is not a romantic comedy.

If he does not see it coming, he might have something. It is a basic old test, but it seems that people with such a "disorder" tend to not notice relationships happening and are somewhat surprised when it does happen.

But yeah, I do not know you or your husband. Could not be any of what I'm suggesting.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Well, Asperger's is like this. It is not something you notice in daily life. And not in their appearance. They just have a hard time noticing things we clearly notice. Check a movie once in which 2 characters fall in love. Especially if it is not a romantic comedy.
> 
> If he does not see it coming, he might have something. It is a basic old test, but it seems that people with such a "disorder" tend to not notice relationships happening and are somewhat surprised when it does happen.
> 
> But yeah, I do not know you or your husband. Could not be any of what I'm suggesting.


Well, he watches "African Queen" with me all the time and seems to get the love part (when not fixating on the boat LMAO) but I will have to pay more attention next time, if there IS a next time (an all time favorite movie so I am usually pretty well sucked into it myself  )


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> Well, he watches "African Queen" with me all the time and seems to get the love part (when not fixating on the boat LMAO) but I will have to pay more attention next time, if there IS a next time (an all time favorite movie so I am usually pretty well sucked into it myself  )


Well won't work if he has seen it before. Was quite a brilliant test btw. The researchers put a normal male and one with Asperger's together. Both watched the same movie. Then they tracked the eyes.

The normal guy's eyes were constantly looking at the faces or important things and could clearly see romances developing. The man with Asperger's was looking randomly at the screen, never fixating his eyes on faces. So the moment they kissed, he got a big WUH???? moment. Ofcourse, he suffered from a moderate to severe version of it.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Well won't work if he has seen it before. Was quite a brilliant test btw. The researchers put a normal male and one with Asperger's together. Both watched the same movie. Then they tracked the eyes.
> 
> The normal guy's eyes were constantly looking at the faces or important things and could clearly see romances developing. The man with Asperger's was looking randomly at the screen, never fixating his eyes on faces. So the moment they kissed, he got a big WUH???? moment. Ofcourse, he suffered from a moderate to severe version of it.


Would be a REALLY slight version, but honestly I would not be SHOCKED if that were the case. Not sure I could tell by his face when he watches (the eyes light up but only for military and history channel stuff... airplanes you get bug eyes, for everything else, harder to read) I might have to try that... will just have to come up with a movie that works and probably a question or something since i feel a little weird sitting and staring at his face the whole time.... YA that will go over great HAHA


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> Would be a REALLY slight version, but honestly I would not be SHOCKED if that were the case. Not sure I could tell by his face when he watches (the eyes light up but only for military and history channel stuff... airplanes you get bug eyes, for everything else, harder to read) I might have to try that... will just have to come up with a movie that works and probably a question or something since i feel a little weird sitting and staring at his face the whole time.... YA that will go over great HAHA


Yeah, looking at his eyes is difficult. They didn't do it as well. Just some head-mounted camera's that mapped eye movements to where they were looking on the screen. just asking if he expected it would be better.

Anyway, would be nice to have an explanation. But it could be something else. Him just not good with people.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Yeah, looking at his eyes is difficult. They didn't do it as well. Just some head-mounted camera's that mapped eye movements to where they were looking on the screen. just asking if he expected it would be better.
> 
> Anyway, would be nice to have an explanation. But it could be something else. Him just not good with people.


It is hard to pin point, but leads to some serious frustration when you are the person dealing with him (and it's not just me, as I said, I know some of his family well, and it is obvious when watching that the kids often seek and long for similar connections and communication but have mostly given up and simply play him and his emotions as it benefits their wallets and desires for a care free lifestyle of partying, playing and bagging all responsibility) hmm can read any frustration from me there can you? HAHA


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

woodstock said:


> It is hard to pin point, but leads to some serious frustration when you are the person dealing with him (and it's not just me, as I said, I know some of his family well, and it is obvious when watching that the kids often seek and long for similar connections and communication but have mostly given up and simply play him and his emotions as it benefits their wallets and desires for a care free lifestyle of partying, playing and bagging all responsibility) hmm can read any frustration from me there can you? HAHA


Yeah. Won't equate to having a loved one vanished and never knowing what happened, but it has the same frustration. Sometimes it's better to know the cause, even if it can't be fixed.

I feel for you. Having your spouse understand and communicate is vital for many. Sure is for me. I hope it is not what I posted, as then you might be able to work at it.
If it is, then you have to work around it, but it provides some form of closure.
Not knowing makes it more frustrating.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Draguna said:


> Yeah. Won't equate to having a loved one vanished and never knowing what happened, but it has the same frustration. Sometimes it's better to know the cause, even if it can't be fixed.
> 
> I feel for you. Having your spouse understand and communicate is vital for many. Sure is for me. I hope it is not what I posted, as then you might be able to work at it.
> If it is, then you have to work around it, but it provides some form of closure.
> Not knowing makes it more frustrating.



Well, I made the biggest step ever last night, unsure where it will go, but will admit to the step having a lot to do with an adjustment on my end. I know I will slip into old habits at times, but at least I have found something for myself and my communication with this person.

In case folks HAVEN'T noticed... I am communicator LMAO Yup I don't deny it HAHA And was told again last night that my opinions, passion, fire to learn, and over analysis are actually part of the attraction (go figure LOL never would have guessed that all, except that it is ok when any of that is pointed elsewhere LOL)

We'll see. I have gotten more here to work with should it go further, and I will again try to apply it if/when the time comes to.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Ok boys, how do I get across to a man that something I asked of him really IS something i need from him? Something small.... something I openly said I needed for two reasons... one it would clue me in, and two, I really need to know that it's worth that much to him? Ya I know whatever.. fitness test blah blah.. I still need it.

What I asked for.... Simply a letter stating where he actually stands on things, maybe saying what he would like to be different, what he needs from me, along with maybe what he LIKES about me, and our relationship (beyond making me feel like a beer buddy cuz we "hang out"). I told him that our conversations are not giving me that, and when we says it was a good conversation.. for HIM it was because I gave him what he was looking for from me... but I have to pull teeth to begin to get ANYTHING from him. I also told him that what he says to me often does not turn out to be what he meant to get across and thought maybe, hey, write it down once then look at what you wrote and see if it really shows me what you want me to see.

I also told him that along with really just wanting to get past limits of our verbal communication (we end up talking AT each other and reacting and not responding right now due to mutual resentment) I also know that writing it down is outside his comfort zone, I get that, which is why if he DOES do it, it also shows me that I/we is worth something to him. If he can go out of his comfort zone for a minute to make it work, simply because I need it from him, then maybe later, if it comes down to me needing him for something BIG, I have a reason to think he might be there (something I openly discuss with him as one of my worries)

I get the whole.. we each need different things, but in return I offered to give him what he says HE needs, which I am not all together comfortable with ATM (getting together face to face to talk) I also gave him my effort of discovering a better way for me to communicate with him and a conscious effort to pay attention to what/how I am saying something. I wanted him to see that I am trying, AND trying something NEW.

Now, am I way off base? or am I going about trying to get what I need here in the wrong way? or is it something that he just sin't going to do because it is not the "man way"? I am honestly confused about that.

He also made me believe it was going to happen, but now pretty much telling me it won't and says it will be a repeat of a conversation (that I tried to say gave me a drop of where he is, but not as much as he thinks it did... not much at all and did not, as he said, answer ANY of the I think 4-5 questions I kinda laid out that I am looking for answers to) the questions BTW were semi direct, not real deep, but questions that would provide answers I can work with so to speak.

How do I ask him to do this, or get across that although it looks like a dumb thing, I really do need it for various reasons? Apparently saying these things in the exact word (I need this because.....) is not right.... PLEASE HELP!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Probably a direct statement and question would suffice w/o wrapping it up in psychobabble and mumbo jumbo. "I want you to xxxxxxx" is a good start. And then stand back and bite your tongue so as to avoid the 9,000 word epistle on why that's such a wonderful thing. But a high degree of calm patience is advised.

I've got to say that in casual observance of what women do and say and how they say it, the amount of time they spend actually letting the other person talk is inversely proportional to the seriousness of the request. Badgering doesn't work, nagging someone into the perfect man you want them to be doesn't work. Spouting self help credo doesn't work. The fact is, most men aren't horrible communicators. It's that they've rarely been given a change to communicate. You might have to be happy with an "I'll have to get back to you on that" initially.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Probably a direct statement and question would suffice w/o wrapping it up in psychobabble and mumbo jumbo. "I want you to xxxxxxx" is a good start. And then stand back and bite your tongue so as to avoid the 9,000 word epistle on why that's such a wonderful thing. But a high degree of calm patience is advised.
> 
> I've got to say that in casual observance of what women do and say and how they say it, the amount of time they spend actually letting the other person talk is inversely proportional to the seriousness of the request. Badgering doesn't work, nagging someone into the perfect man you want them to be doesn't work. Spouting self help credo doesn't work. The fact is, most men aren't horrible communicators. It's that they've rarely been given a change to communicate. You might have to be happy with an "I'll have to get back to you on that" initially.


I am guilty of overly explaining, but... also took that to heart in our last conversation after reading around here and cut back (really over doing it here because it is hard to wrap up what is going on when people are not privy to the whole thing but I do get what you are saying and guilty as charged)

That said... I did start out with the simple statement.." I need you to write it down so that I can see what you mean and respond not react or yell, and it would show me it's worth something to you" Actually left it at that, and I was in turn left with the feeling that he WAS going to get back to me on that, but the problem is unless I am the one to bring him back to that.. it will never happen LOL

So I did bring it back up again a few days later, adding a little bit to both what I was hoping he would give me in it (suggested a few questions to ask himself since he said he didn't know what to put on paper, and NO i am not looking for a love letter LOL) and also told him again what it would mean to me about the worth thing....

Was left with him saying he understood, saying OK I will give you that, but then today, since he had not :gotten back to me on that" I kinda put it out there "are we still working on this?" and got back that now maybe he isn't gonna do it? 

So.... this leaves me wondering if it really isn't worth that little bit to him (not gonna address the communication here, I know he sucks at that and he is convinced he really gave me something, but umm no, no one who heard our conversation would ever say that LOL) but is it really not worth it or am I really missing something in the man language...

If I AM missing something, what would be the man language that says a relationship has some meaning and worth?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I find lightly touching someone on the arm or the back of the hand in a non sexual way is an excellent way to get their attention and to get them to focus. Then tell him, ok, if you're not sure what you want to say now, then let's pick this up tonight/first thing tomorrow (if he's a morning person) but set an outside limit on it. And make sure to start over, from the beginning like you never had the prior conversation before. If you don't make any headway this way then you're going to need some kind of professional interlocutor or whatnot, someone to facilitate this as a disinterested third party.


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## woodstock (Feb 21, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> I find lightly touching someone on the arm or the back of the hand in a non sexual way is an excellent way to get their attention and to get them to focus. Then tell him, ok, if you're not sure what you want to say now, then let's pick this up tonight/first thing tomorrow (if he's a morning person) but set an outside limit on it. And make sure to start over, from the beginning like you never had the prior conversation before. If you don't make any headway this way then you're going to need some kind of professional interlocutor or whatnot, someone to facilitate this as a disinterested third party.


OK, I like this, and can actually see it working with the guy I am talking about... will keep it in mind...

Tried to take advice into action tonight.. worked to a point and made sure to end things after he got puffy and frustrated (still trying to figure out how that happened, but asking him to take notice of things like that will come when he is NOT in the middle of it LOL)... also made sure to calm things down before saying good night so that it did not end on a huffy note (he tried to get to hanging up there, but I wouldn't have it so I calmed it down)

What it came down to was that he got frustrated over me turning the conversation from what is usually me offering him plenty from my side (which of course means it was a great convo for me) to me pushing to get something from him that he is not good at giving (an explanation)... still not sure when it went or where it is going, but learning to communicate is not instant and ya, take a bit of effort on both sides but I think is worth it, or hope it is, in the end.

Got from him that he is afraid to give anything because in his head, it will never be enough (so why start) I think that may have something to do with the ex.. BUT I still pointed out that if he lets that fear always stop him from giving anything, that leaves me with nothing... so you have to give something to see IF I will keep demanding more (I am still looking for the first things) Anyway... not sure if he got that or not, or if it sank in or if he will be willing to make an effort to give despite the fear. Told him that if he gives once, and demands keep coming THEN he can be mad, but he can't deny me even the littlest bit because HE is scared (THAT is not fair)

Anyway, we will see and if I can see something from him, I will give back (gotta do it that way this time as I was too willing to give no matter what last time and this time I think I need to force the give and take a little bit as well as to make it harder for him to take me for granted... see? the grasshopper IS learning hAAAA)

Was told that he thinks I don't understand men AT ALL... not sure I agree with that completely, but maybe because he is close to me, I am not presenting what I know because of what I feel. I don't think that's uncommon.

BUT thanks again... you guys ARE helping me out here....

I did agree with him completely when he said that I was becoming "verbally overbearing" in our conversation, which happened out of frustration in trying to get him to say what he meant, not something vague that left me scratching my head (when he told me what he DID mean finally I was thinking HOW IN HELL was I supposed to get that from where you started? and you wonder why I am always asking for an explanation?) HAHA

Maybe I will explain that last part some time... but I am already being "verbally overbearing" here and will shut up HAAAAAA

But thanks boys... all advice appreciated, and much of it being put into action.... keep it coming HAAAA :smthumbup:


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