# Why are men loyal to their employer? Why do men work so much?



## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

My husband works in a resonsible position for a company that pays him average or somewhat below average.
He works 60 hours a week and is paid for 40 and according to what I have been told his job is not very enjoyable and highly stressful. A small mistake and there will be a million in damage.

Yet I never heard him say something negative about him employer. I really don't like them.
Hubby is loyal to them but they are not loyal to him - otherwise they would pay him better or give him time off.

A brother of mine does the same and so do several of my male friends. What is these mens motive?

Do they want to provide to thier families? I'd like to believe it. Is it thier sole motive? Does workin g a lot and having no time for your family add to your self-esteem?


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## ChristianGrey (Nov 27, 2014)

No money, no honey.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Often those men aren't even paid that well.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I'll make tea, If your concerned for your husband's mental health and well being, maybe you should seek employment yourself, so you can
add to the income your family consumes?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

I do work but I have two young children and that's why I cannot work really much.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Financial uncertainty for a married man with children is a very big deal.
There is certainly a perceived safety in the devil you know, rather than the devil you don't.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Like I said: he is not getting rich... not sure if it is about the money.

He also seems to think that all other employers suck and have only men of low character working for them and talks badly about their incompetence.
I really do think that they somehow make them feel they are a special employer while they are not... and they seem to love to instill pride in those working for them because if they are proud you don't have to pay them well. They will consider it a honour to work for you.

That was not an answer to deejo btw. I wrote it before.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Financial uncertainty for a married man with children is a very big deal.
> There is certainly a perceived safety in the devil you know, rather than the devil you don't.


Do you think this is the sole reason? Because he still could gossip about them, couldn't he? He does not even do that. Instead he sings their praises.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> Do you think this is the sole reason? Because he still could gossip about them, couldn't he? He does not even do that. Instead he sings their praises.


misery loves company

or 

he needs to put a positive spin on things to make him feel like he is doing the right thing

or 

People there get canned for displaying a negative attitude openly


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Have you ever worked for an employer? 

People with self respect would rather work even an underpaid job if they're able, than scam the government for unemployment. 

Depending on your field, good paying jobs aren't easy to come by. 

It's an employers market these days, meaning that there are more people wanting jobs then there are jobs available. An employer will 'mistreat' the employees when it knows they have no other employment options.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think a lot of it comes from what they were taught about working from thier fathers and grandfathers. That working and thier job is part of thier identity. Problem is employers aren't loyal to thier employees anymore or at least very rarely. My grandfather retired from AT&T with pension benefits, a huge party, a parting severance package. They, at the time, went out of thier way to make sure the retirees benefits were sound and medical was taken care.

My fathers generation showed more of the greed of corporations. I watched my father work himself into a heart attack from job pressure. After his recovery they fired him. He had an open and shut wrongful termination lawsuit but because of the pride he was taught he never filed for it. My mother who ran a nursing home as an RN for 40 years was let go to hire someone at 1/2 her salary. Not even a goodbye party.

I have learned.

I go to work and give 100% every day. But never more. I'm under no illusion that if I got killed/murdered on duty that I would have my position filled within a week and park named after me in a month and I would be no more a memory than the picture of the fallen officers at the police operation center. In other words I understand I am a number and little more. I do not identify myself as my profession although it is hard to separate and I'm proud of my job. I used to identify myself as husband father first now just father first. I will and have already taught my daughters that family is more important than job.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I am exactly as loyal to my employer as they are to me. Which is to say---not very much.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Lot of men are blind.

Funny, cause I work 40 hour weeks and my loyalty towards my employer is quite low. But that's mostly based on the past with this employer, how they treat me/other people (not bad, but just weird....hard to explain).......I don't allow stress into my life from work (try to anyways, used to ALOT but that only did damage).........and I get paid quite well.

I can ONLY care as much for my employer as they care about me. Since they care very little, I do as well.

I go there....do bunch of stuff....and get paid.

Job is a tool, not my life. It's tool that allows me to pay for things and sustain my family.

I don't have any goals to become rich or chase money. I like what I have.

HOWEVER, I do see MANY men taking their job WAY too seriously, allow the job to drive them insane....and of course LOTS of employers taking advantage of them (crazy hours, extra work etc).

And the whole money chase and always wanting more....I just don't get that, but whatever.

I can't stress enough how important it is to manage your work as an employee. Most employers will only require what you allow them. If you don't push back when they demand hours, they will want you to work 60......if not more, after all, it's free labor/slave labor and companies LOVE that.

I blame the people, LONG before I blame the companies, but neither is right.

I simply refuse to accept any job that requires me to work more than 40 hours. I value my life/family way too much for a job to take away from that. Each and every day I need time dedicated to my wife/family, I value it greatly....it's priceless to me.

I can also give you a week long speech on how ****ty my employer is.....the level of stupidity at my work is beyond what I have seen in handful of careers and workplaces I had. 

But it's funny and good comedy......


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

:iagree:

I'm one of those people who believe nobody ever ends up on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

I see this from women more often than men (almost exclusively, actually), they frequently think they (or their spouse) deserve more money than what they are getting, but don't provide any justification for it beyond "I work hard". I think a lot of women have unrealistic expectations about how much their labor is worth. How hard you work isn't the only factor, it's also how easily you can be replaced and how much value your position adds to the employer's bottom line.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It's in our DNA...we go out chop stuff up, kill things, and drag it back to the cave for you women.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I'll make tea said:


> Do you think this is the sole reason? Because he still could gossip about them, couldn't he? He does not even do that. Instead he sings their praises.


Perhaps he actually likes his job and the company. 

Perhaps he chooses not to be a negative, complaining person. 

Perhaps he feels that he chose this career and even if it not ideal he should suck it up and be a positive part of the team he chose to play on. 

What I don't understand is why you would want your husband to bad mouth and complain about his employer. What in the world does that accomplish except to add negativity to his life and yours.


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## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

Three things to consider:


Much of our self-identity is tied to what we do, and consequently where we do it. The company is our team, our co-workers are our teammates and our hearts are committed to them. This can be true even in very abusive situations. Leaving a place where you feel you belong is difficult for most people.

There is a security and comfort in a situation you’ve been at for many years. There is a great deal of uncertainty and stress in switching jobs. Newton pointed out that an object at rest stays at rest until something else moves it. I’ve seen the same thing with jobs; people will stay in their comfort zones until something forces them out.

You may not be correct about your husband’s compensation prospects. My wife has many times told me I am underpaid. Usually she is incorrect, but even when she is right there are hurdles and risks associated with reaching for more money


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening I'llmaketea
For many men (myself included) their self-worth is tied to their jobs. 

In many ways the modern (1st) world is too easy, we are rarely called on to do do difficult, dangerous things - very few people need to charge machine-gun nests, or leap on hand grenades. So some people replace that with a "heroic" effort at work: The postman who walks through a blizzard to deliver the mail is an iconic image.

Or- there is another reason: some people put extra effort / time into work because they are unhappy at home. They may not even be fully aware themselves that that is what they are doing.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'm one of those people who believe nobody ever ends up on their deathbed wishing they'd spent more time at the office.


Agreed

I also don't believe in "dream job". I never met a person in my life that wakes up Monday morning and says "I can't wait to get to work".

I'm sure there are people that love their job out there, but I'm guessing the % is extremely low.

I don't think "dream job" exists. Heck, even if I was to do something I loved, like anything else, once you do something over and over for months....years....it WILL become old/stale at some point.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

I'll make tea said:


> Like I said: he is not getting rich... not sure if it is about the money.
> 
> He also seems to think that all other employers suck and have only men of low character working for them and talks badly about their incompetence.
> 
> ...


HA! I think the Human Resources types like to call this “employee engagement”.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

BWBill said:


> Three things to consider:
> 
> 
> Much of our self-identity is tied to what we do, and consequently where we do it. The company is our team, our co-workers are our teammates and our hearts are committed to them. This can be true even in very abusive situations. Leaving a place where you feel you belong is difficult for most people.
> ...


Well said

I think it's important to identify and know exactly what it is that keeps you in the "comfort" zone at work. And evaluate it on regular basis vs the cons.

My job doesn't have too many cons, in reality there are cons but they are minor and laughable at best.

5 min commute, nice office and 8 hour work days is about the only thing that keeps me here....and obviously money


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Another thing I wanted to add is .......I don't think I have ever been in the company that really cared about me or was loyal to me.

So I'm not sure I can EVER be loyal to ANY company. Working <insert anywhere> is like a business transaction. You put in time/work > get paid > no feelings attached.

Handful of careers and I worked at over dozen of places. I also deal with many top Fortune 500 companies on regular basis. 

Corps/Companies do NOT have feelings or CARE. They will get rid of you as they please and won't even consider anything you have done or accomplished. Over the years I've seen SO many people get fired or let go for things that were completely out of their control or they never even did.

Life is not fair, it's best to accept it early on in life.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

DoF said:


> So I'm not sure I can EVER be loyal to ANY company. *Working <insert anywhere> is like a business transaction. You put in time/work > get paid > no feelings attached.*


Bingo.

It's just business. They choose to employ me as long as I'm useful to them, and I choose to work for them as long as it's profitable and convenient for me.

Being 'loyal' to a company who'd replace you at the drop of a hat makes as much sense as being a loyal customer of a restaurant that serves you a plate of garbage every day.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Flip it in your head to add a bit more perspective. What happens when he loses his job? Are you willing to settle for less than your ideal perfect job to collect that paycheck? Probably…. And that’s what he’s doing right now and is ok with that. It’s just how it is. How you cope is finding things within that job you like and focusing on it. If you just look at the bad stuff, it becomes a bad job. Sometimes it is; and you complain quietly until you can’t just suck it up and need to move on. Individuals have different thresholds of where that bar is set.

Hell, take it a step further. Has he ever complained about the marriage or your performance? Most men do. That doesn’t mean we’ll leave you either until it becomes bad enough that it is time to move on.

Oh and I’ll carry it a bit further. Make an assumption about why he does this; you know him best. How can you help make it worth it? I hope you are encouraging that you value him more than the firm rather than just being focused on why he stays at a bad job and trying to convince him essentially that he’s weak. It’s a lot better if you build him up instead of focusing on tearing down his self-esteem. The added bonus is he might feel the job is worth it to come home to this place that makes him feel good.

My wife rips. I’m not sure she knows how to do the same thing without doing the damage. So instead of telling him he’s getting walked all over, brag about what he does and how hard he works even though it isn’t recognized by his bosses. The ‘getting walked all over’ only plants seeds that he’s ‘less than’ you like. It hurts his self-esteem and pride to think along those terms of getting screwed over all time by everyone. The building up also plants seeds, but ones that maybe he should get some recognition for his awesomeness.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Most employers treat most employees like disposable batteries, and look for the cheapest batteries available (after all, most provide about the same level of performance).

I've always been as loyal and productive as an employer merits, and have gone elsewhere if I wasn't being treated or paid fairly. One employer refused to pay me market rates, but I otherwise liked the company and the work. I left anyway, but 3 months later returned - and got a $30,000 raise to market rates.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> My husband works in a resonsible position for a company that pays him average or somewhat below average.
> He works 60 hours a week and is paid for 40 and according to what I have been told his job is not very enjoyable and highly stressful. A small mistake and there will be a million in damage.
> 
> Yet I never heard him say something negative about him employer. I really don't like them.
> ...


I think loyalty is a positive thing. I understand what you are saying. Would it do much good for him to say anything bad about them? There aren't really companies that are loyal to employees now if there ever were. Their bottom line is money. There is not going to be another job that is completely loyal to anyone. You're very critical of your husband. I would say if he is loyal to this company that is a good sign he will be loyal to you. Why is his loyalty to this company bothersome to you?


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> I've always been as loyal and productive as an employer merits, and have gone elsewhere if I wasn't being treated or paid fairly. One employer refused to pay me market rates, but I otherwise liked the company and the work. *I left anyway, but 3 months later returned - and got a $30,000 raise to market rates.*


That's a bitter lesson for loyal employees. The new employee often gets paid more even though they know less and their performance is unproven. 

That's not to say that everyone should quit their job and come back later at a higher salary. If the supply of people with your skills is high enough you won't have a job to come back to. It's only when the demand exceeds the supply that you can easily jump into a new job that pays a higher rate.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> That's a bitter lesson for loyal employees. The new employee often gets paid more even though they know less and their performance is unproven.


Yep, very true.

In our company, I've also noticed that people that do the least/poor performance are rewarded the most. And those that work the hardest end up with most work/least paid and 0 recognition.

**** is backwards, but it's the way it is.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

> Why are men loyal to their employer? Why do men work so much?


Because that's how you get ahead in life. As opposed to those that complain they don't make any money and do the bare minimum and put in 8 hours and only 8 hours a day, if that.

When I was first starting out, I was salaried. If I worked over, no extra money.

So with going above and beyond, it was taken into consideration as I was promoted.

I had a guy I trained one time when we were both grunts. We had a job that could be completed by just staying over on more hour on a day. Now if he already had plans, understandable and I wouldn't have thought anything of it.

But he didn't and just complained and said he wasn't going to do any more than he had to.

My response to him: "That's why you'll never go anywhere with regards to a career".


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> My husband works in a resonsible position for a company that pays him average or somewhat below average.


In today's job market, employers can sh.t on you. They know if you don't like your job, they can find someone else who will do your job, often for less money.

It is not uncommon today to find employers demanding their "salaried" employees work 60+ hours per week with absolutely no loyalty to their employees whatsoever. Don't like it? Tough sh.t, quit.

This is a dramatic change from when I was in the job market. When you went to work for a company, it was oftentimes for your entire career. You were loyal to your company, and your company (usually) treated you respectfully.

Today, young people change jobs the same way they change spouses. It is all part of the "disposable" lifestyle we have cultivated in this country. I suppose employers have likewise adopted the same mentality.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

For me it's about self respect. I don't believe in doing a job at less than 100% of my ability. While I'm sure I could get away with putting in much less effort I would know that I'm not giving 100% and it would bother me. 

While overall I would say the balance with my current employer in terms of my output versus my compensation lies in their favour, I can say that when they closed down the plant I was responsible for and laid everybody off they chose to keep me and let me work remotely from home. It's not ideal from their point of view but they recognized I still had more to contribute. 

I don't fool myself into thinking I will be kept beyond the point where I provide value...and quite frankly why should I...but I comfort myself with the knowledge if they choose to get rid of me at this point they have to pay me a hefty severance.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Methuselah said:


> Today, young people change jobs the same way they change spouses. It is all part of the "disposable" lifestyle we have cultivated in this country. I suppose employers have likewise adopted the same mentality.


I think that's a chicken and egg type discussion.

When I was younger the quickest way to climb the ladder...thus increase your earnings...was to jump from company to company. Companies tended to give miserly increases to existing employee's while at the same time being required to pay top dollar to bring in new talent. Thus it was more advantageous to be that 'new talent'.

Companies were reluctant to develop existing personnel as more often than not shortly after paying to upgrade someone's skills the person would jump ship to where they could earn more with those new skills.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Deejo was bang on on page 1.

I'd just like to add that for some men - like me - loyalty is a strong ideal for them to live by. You may see an overworked dude that isn't earning what he should, he may see a boss or company that puts food in his children's belly, and for that he will give his loyalty.

Coming from a martial arts background there is also sometimes a strong sense of fealty that might be present, as is perhaps a sense of tribe.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

You also have to consider the dynamic of employment vs self employment. Most people would be a lot more willing to work themselves to a nub if they're their own boss, vs doing it for an ungrateful S.O.B in a corner office.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Because that's how you get ahead in life. As opposed to those that complain they don't make any money and do the bare minimum and put in 8 hours and only 8 hours a day, if that.
> 
> When I was first starting out, I was salaried. If I worked over, no extra money.
> 
> ...


Defines "getting ahead in career" also how much did it actually net you.

All of this under the assumption that your company actually valued/recognized your extra/hard work (I haven't' been/seen many that do).

Truth is, even if you got a fat raise or a promotion. What did it actually net you in terms or $$$. What did you do with that money other than buy more materialistic crap.....

You see, to me "getting ahead in career" really means very little. I don't really care for a raise or more money. I don't really care for promotion either.

By my standards, I'm already beyond rich (of course not by "American" standards). So to want more is a bit greedy from my perspective....especially when you look at how most people in this world live.

If I can sustain, live comfortably AND spend plenty of time with my loved ones. I'm happy. 

Always want more attitude is something I struggle to understand. How much "MORE" is enough? At what point are you comfortable? 

Or does it never end?

I guess my biggest beef with this is, why people can't just accept what they have and be happy with it. 

Mind you, I do understand the importance of progress and improvement in life. It does help human society. From a personal perspective....so what now you will have a 3000sq ft house not 2000 and drive a Mercedes and not a VW.

I want neither of those, heck I actually want to downgrade from my 1600sq ft house and don't even want a new car (put millions of dollars in my bank account and that won't change one bit).


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I wouldn't mind the trappings of wealth. A 3000 sqft home and a new Challenger in the driveway would put a smile on my face---but I value my time far more than that. If I could work a 40 hr job and afford those things, I'd probably do it. I CAN work a 60 hour job and afford them, but I choose not to. I put a much higher value on my limited time on earth than my employer does, so I'm choosy about how I spend it.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Imt, didn't you say in previous threads, 

-My husbands job is not secure 

-He started in a new career field where he is older than other newbies in the field. 

Couldn't he be working a lot of hours to learn his new field? And secure a position in the company? Perhaps he is also trying to prove his value over his younger competition? 

As the primary breadwinner in your family don't you think he feels some pressure to succeed in his job so his family has financial security?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Some people work hard because they don't have the luxury not to, not when they're responsible for children and college educations and mortgages. Even if they don't get paid overtime, they get to keep their job, which most people are grateful to have as they can't live without an income and medical benefits.

Some people work hard to sock it away in their bank accounts and investments so they can STOP working while they're still young enough to enjoy it. 

Some people don't badmouth their employers because they are keenly aware of the other companies in their industry and know that theirs isn't anywhere near the worst of the bunch. Even if somewhere else pays more, those jobs might be lots worse because of other factors at play.

And some people truly take pride in their work and gain satisfaction out of doing something really well.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mine works hard and is loyal because they pay him over $300,000 to do so. OK there is more to it like needing money to pay for life, school fees, retirement etc.
He enjoys his career and the challenges but he is now looking forward to working towards our retirement lifestyle.

But ultimately he works hard for the money.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Fozzy
It might not even put a smile on your face for long. I've gone from quite poor to pretty wealthy, and my overall happiness hasn't changed much as a result. 

There is always someone out there with more money than you can imagine. 




Fozzy said:


> I wouldn't mind the trappings of wealth. A 3000 sqft home and a new Challenger in the driveway would put a smile on my face---but I value my time far more than that. If I could work a 40 hr job and afford those things, I'd probably do it. I CAN work a 60 hour job and afford them, but I choose not to. I put a much higher value on my limited time on earth than my employer does, so I'm choosy about how I spend it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Oh I agree! You get used to the lifestyle you have. I've been in the rags camp, the riches camp, and the in-between. The adjustment period can be a shock both ways, but it's soon life as usual after a while.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> My husband works in a resonsible position for a company that pays him average or somewhat below average.
> He works 60 hours a week and is paid for 40 and according to what I have been told his job is not very enjoyable and highly stressful. A small mistake and there will be a million in damage.
> 
> Yet I never heard him say something negative about him employer. I really don't like them.
> ...


I think the real question is, how long has your H been with this company? Is he new to the workforce or have a few years in? Sure, I stated in a bag of crap company. Worked that for beans. Long hours. Abused. But it paid the bills. I did advance. I gain experience. I was sh!t canned after 11 years. Found another job that I love to death. Love the boss. Make 6 figures. The moral of the story though...sometimes you got to crawl before you walk. Walk before you run. Currently I'm in the run of my career. Where is you H in his career?


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Maybe because he knows if he isn't loyal, he can lose his job. 
And he needs that job so you, the kids, and he can eat. And celebrate the holidays. And have a good life. 

And if he is working 60 hours a week, and you think he is only paid for 40, you may want to check that. 
If he works for an hourly wage, he should be getting paid. And then that is a pretty big legal issue. 
If it is a salary, that is expected. You work until the job is done, not until you can clock out. 
Or if it is commission based, kinda same track as wages. 

Could be more a loyalty (or alliance) of convenience rather than actual loyalty to something he cares about.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Deejo said*: *Financial uncertainty for a married man with children is a very big deal*.


Very true....his ability to Provide for our family... it's what sustains us all.... He has only worked for 2 employers in his 51 yrs.. Very LOYAL employee..he's one of those guys who is never late & maybe calls off 1 day in 6 yrs or so for being sick, an emergency (like when our son was taken by ambulance).. or a death in the family.. ...

Oh he will come home and tell ME some outrageous stories about his bosses.. how they conduct themselves & he thinks they are A-holes.. (1st employer refused to pay his vendors ... H was a Manager of a Dept & had to deal with these ANGRY Vendors ...one wanted to beat the sh** out of his boss as this $$ was coming out of his pay ...they'd let their debt get so high as to be cut off , then pay cash...and yo yo it back & forth..

But he always treated them with respect...they had good relations...we had a growing family.. he needed THAT JOB!...

At least they always paid HIM on time !...He had a way with people so those vendors never took it out on him.. they knew it wasn't his fault his bosses were Unethical & deserved to have their business crash into the ground... His boss ran up a bill with coca-cola like in the $ 100,000 mark. .... eventually the supermarket went under due to their practices.. Husband got out of there before it all went down. He never made big bucks but the health benefit package kept him there....would have covered an In Vitro attempt if we needed it...it did cover my infertility testing...a blessing during those difficult years. 



> *Wolf1974 said*:* I go to work and give 100% every day. But never more. I'm under no illusion that if I got killed/murdered on duty that I would have my position filled within a week and park named after me in a month and I would be no more a memory than the picture of the fallen officers at the police operation center. In other words I understand I am a number and little more. I do not identify myself as my profession although it is hard to separate and I'm proud of my job. I used to identify myself as husband father first now just father first. I will and have already taught my daughters that family is more important than job*.


 This is pretty much how it goes, isn't it.. I think a good man & employee will be remembered in the eyes of some co-workers ...but life goes on... MY H still looks back fondly on some of those he worked with at one time. he teared up at a funeral of an old co-worker, they just had many good times... he enjoys telling the stories -even to this day. He even remember many of his customers too. 



> *norajane said* :*Some people work hard because they don't have the luxury not to, not when they're responsible for children and college educations and mortgages. Even if they don't get paid overtime, they get to keep their job, which most people are grateful to have as they can't live without an income and medical benefits*.











... this is very true of us.... we are not a rich family.. we will never make anything near 6 figures.. though this is OK.. the job he has is one of the better blue collar ones in our area where unemployment is high & many struggle to find something decent paying.... 

We are so very thankful ....when I got that phone call 17 yrs ago -for him to report for his physical...I cried...I got on my knees and thanked GOD above...I still feel this way...

He comes home and tells me how some of the co-workers complain about this or that.. not my husband.. he knows what it's like to work for peanuts.. and he knows, even with a little sh** on the job, lazy co-workers who he says are as worthless as "ti*s on a bull" (he can be a little crude at times)..a boss who's had to go to Anger management twice, who put a stop to some of the benefits these men had when he started-everyone else on the RR still gets them but since they got Scrooge for their main boss, they are crap out of luck...he brings meaning to the word... tried to give H a pair of boots once that were 2 different sizes even.. (you just gotta :rofl: at some of this .. it's so outrageous!).... he really doesn't complain.. .. 

So yeah... Life is Beautiful.. we have raised our larger family on his income, he gets cost of living raises, he will have a Pension, we have good health benefits/ eye & dental.....so thankful.... We know how much worse it could be..



> *Some people don't badmouth their employers because they are keenly aware of the other companies in their industry and know that theirs isn't anywhere near the worst of the bunch. Even if somewhere else pays more, those jobs might be lots worse because of other factors at play*.


 very true !



> *And some people truly take pride in their work and gain satisfaction out of doing something really well.*


 a man of integrity will always do his best when he is getting paid for a job.. this is very admirable in a man.. (and a woman too!)


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

vellocet said:


> Because that's how you get ahead in life. As opposed to those that complain they don't make any money and do the bare minimum and put in 8 hours and only 8 hours a day, if that.


This.

A bad attitude affects every aspect of a person's work.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't necessarily equate good attitude with loyalty to an employer. I come in with a good attitude--so much so that I'm constantly getting compliments from other departments, etc.

I'd still drop this place like a hot potato in the right circumstances, because I know they'd do the same to me.

My loyalty is to my family. If I can provide a better life for them, whether financially or by being there for them more, I'll make whatever employment decisions make sense to that end.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

DoF said:


> Defines "getting ahead in career" also how much did it actually net you.


At the company I was with, it netted me promotions, more money, worth the effort.

It also helped add to my resume for the position I'm in now.




> All of this under the assumption that your company actually valued/recognized your extra/hard work (I haven't' been/seen many that do).



Sure, there is no guarantee that the hard work will be rewarded.

But it is a guarantee that someone isn't going anywhere with a apathetic attitude and work ethic.




> Truth is, even if you got a fat raise or a promotion. What did it actually net you in terms or $$$. What did you do with that money other than buy more materialistic crap.....
> 
> You see, to me "getting ahead in career" really means very little.


Then I guess you have nothing to complain about in this area. If you are content at the bottom, then sit back and enjoy.




> I don't really care for a raise or more money. I don't really care for promotion either.


Then get a job that pays by the hour and not salaried and you are good to go.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> My loyalty is to my family. If I can provide a better life for them, whether financially or by being there for them more, I'll make whatever employment decisions make sense to that end.


Point well made, Fozzy. 

I tend to think there is difference between accepting a better job offer when it lands in your lap (Who wouldn't?) vs. making negative comments about one's employer in the absence of a tangible alternative.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Instead of thinking about how you'd do things differently in his shoes, try to look at the positive things that this behavior shows about his personality. 

My H and I both work full time in careers in the same field (different companies). We are very different employees though. I am much more outspoken and less fearful of making mistakes. I have found it easier to climb the ladder than he has. However he is much more loyal as you say, careful, caring and diligent about his work. 

Risk taking often gets you ahead (and schmoozing) but both have their down falls. 

I used to be frustrated that my H was often passed over for promotions and shied away from asking for more money. Over time I have softened on that. I now see his strengths instead. He is strong in all of the areas where I am weak and that extends to our marraige. He is patient, he is thorough with his work, he believes in craftsmanship and careful thought in everything he does. He never gives less than 100% and checks all of his work many times before considering it complete which means he is almost always error free. (Way more than I can say for myself!) He isn't affected by a culture of slacking off or bad mouthing or gossiping. He holds his head high and he works to his own high standards even if there is no money or promotion as motivation for doing so. He does it for himself. He takes pride in his work. 

He takes pride in what he can do for his employer and also for me and his family. 

I think climbing the corporate ladder myself and now dealing with a lot of employees of my own, I understand a bit more about traits that make a good employee vs a bad employee. I find myself often wishing for someone like my H. I definitely appreciate his work ethic a lot more than I used to. You don't always find someone with that kind of integrity and honesty.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

Have worked for my present company for 20 years. Only my second job out of college. First job lasted 7 years - I left because I did not like my boss and really was not enamored with my job.

I am NOT loyal to my current company - the only reason I stay is that I love what I do and I love who I work for (my boss and the chain of command all the way up to the CEO) - if that was not the case I would look elsewhere as life is too short.

Not sure I will ever retire - I see that as nothing more than entering the waiting room for Heaven - not sure I will ever be ready for that!! The only thing that will ever make me do that is if my health fails as a result of catching Old Age Disease and I am trying my best to avoid that!!


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The reality of loyalty to employer 50 years ago is certainly different than it is today. As others have stipulated, if you want to stay employed you have to show some appearance of loyalty to the company. Finding new work is very very hard these days, blue and white collar alike. 

As to why he portrays that attitude at home, is interesting, not sure I can answer it. But, I would not mistake his working beyond his paid hours as loyalty. I don't feel a necessary loyalty to my employer, but I do toward my students. I go above and beyond for them at times. I do want them to succeed even though I tell them the grade they receive is one earned not given. It is for some of us a compartmentalizing game on the job and can be viewed from the outside differently than the employer may actually feel. My two bits worth of input.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I don't necessarily equate good attitude with loyalty to an employer. I come in with a good attitude--so much so that I'm constantly getting compliments from other departments, etc.
> 
> I'd still drop this place like a hot potato in the right circumstances, because I know they'd do the same to me.
> 
> My loyalty is to my family. If I can provide a better life for them, whether financially or by being there for them more, I'll make whatever employment decisions make sense to that end.


My husband and I think the same way.

My husband does well at his job and never says anything negative while at work. His boss will praise him, yet she also prevents him from moving up and treats him poorly. He is currently looking for another job, but he is still working his butt off at his current position. As soon as he gets a good job offer, he is out of there. They don't care about him and he does not care about them(no loyalty, but works hard anyways). 

Work life can be tough for many people and the grass is not always greener on the other side, so many just stay with a job that is stable enough to provide for their family. Sometimes it's easier to deal with a horrible work situation by not complaining and trying to think it your head that it's "not so bad", just to make it through.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Aspydad said:


> .......
> 
> *Not sure I will ever retire - I see that as nothing more than entering the waiting room for Heaven - not sure I will ever be ready for that!! * The only thing that will ever make me do that is if my health fails as a result of catching Old Age Disease and I am trying my best to avoid that!!


Complete opposite here, we plan and talk about it often as our lives are so busy we could easily fill another 50 hours a week with our retirement plans.

I am pretty much retired at 48 and work 2 days a week because I enjoy it. He is almost mid 50's so has about 7 work years ahead of him.
We have so many things we are currently doing and want to do. We have started researching to buy a country property as we both want to do some permaculture, grow fruit trees, continue with our bee hives.

We want to keep our city home as well because we love live bands, Opera, events etc and also have lots of friends and family in the city.

Travel of course is something we want to do more and more of. Cycling, taking up new activities, learning new things. Retirement will be fun for us but that is because we are already active, busy people.

The ones I have known that life goes down hill post retirement are the ones that had pretty boring lives pre retirement.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I am exactly as loyal to my employer as they are to me. Which is to say---not very much.


:iagree:

I have no loyalty whatsover to my employer. I work hard, because that's my job, and when you do good work, it gets noticed. A side perk is that allows you more leeway than others who don't do jack squat. 

But I have no illusions, and they would let me go in a heartbeat if ever things went south, I've seen it happen to too many people. People get thrown under the bus all the time, which is why I don't have an ounce of loyalty. I know that if it was up to them, we'd all be working minimum wage with no benefits and no pension.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> Imt, didn't you say in previous threads,
> 
> -My husbands job is not secure
> 
> ...


Yes, I said those things.

@ those who asked: He works for a salary btw and gets boni for projects completed.

Don't even know why I asked that because I do think he works a lot for us and it's actually good to have a husband like that... it's just that I sometimes feel a little let down because he told me that he only needed to work until 4 p.m. in his new job, now he often works till 9 p.m.

I sometimes do feel like his work (and all of the buddies at work, and all of the buddies he had in his former jobs) are more important than me and the kids... 

It makes me a little sad because I value him far more than his employer does. I would not walk over him the way they do.

... but may be that's just a feeling and in fact he only works hard for us.

So why is he not gossiping? May be he just does not gossip. I don't know if he ever gossips about me. I would really love to find out.


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## KingofIstatements (Jul 30, 2011)

I'll make tea said:


> It makes me a little sad because I value him far more than his employer does. I would not walk over him the way they do.


That's how my wife feels sometimes, we have much different philosophies on commitment to work, and I know we're increasingly confused by each other's POV, particularly since having children and she stopped work to SAHM. 

I've realized that she feels some disconnection from my responsibilities at work because she doesn't participate in the non-tangible rewards when the happy client/boss stuff happens, just through my descriptions. 

Beyond what everyone else has described here, I think another factor that propels many men's sense of commitment in higher responsibility jobs are the times that bad stuff nearly happened, and not wanting to repeat that situation. Early in my career and in the diaper days, getting paid in smiles and kumbayas (it was for a NonProf outfit) we had a could've-been-much-worse kind of natural disaster in our area. I was with the Fam, they were OK- so my strong desire was to go in and check on the stuff at work, which I was vigorously, eventually talked out of. My monetary compensation at the time was one of the finer points of the discussion. Didn't receive any notifications so I slowly relaxed. 

The next morning I knew something was extremely wrong just climbing the stairs before I even opened the equipment room door, cooling fans screaming at their highest RPM possible. I was a very, very lucky man that it happened during a day in winter...


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Sure, there is no guarantee that the hard work will be rewarded.
> 
> But it is a guarantee that someone isn't going anywhere with a apathetic attitude and work ethic.
> 
> Then I guess you have nothing to complain about in this area. If you are content at the bottom, then sit back and enjoy..


That's not always true at all. I also seen MANY people that didn't work hard get promoted, make more money etc. But in general it's a good thing to go by.

I have good work ethic and positive attitude when I go to work. I've also accomplished quite a bit in the company I'm in and literally turned the entire place around and reorganized it.

It netted me NOTHING. Sure I got few raises but the people around me all got promoted/raises (mind you, people that were part of the problem too).

No, I'm not content at the bottom. My company simply doesn't value or recognize hard work (quite the opposite).

This is not the first or last company that I've seen this happening at. Like I said before, I'm on my 3rd career and have worked at dozen of places.

PS. I also put in extra work but it was used against me. Also, extra work was put in not because it was needed, it was put in due to "self inflicted pain that this company creates by itself".

Once I recognized this and also seen that company didn't appreciate it and try to force me to work even more hours......one has to rethink the situation, don't you think?

There is a HUGE difference in "putting extra hours when needed" and "putting extra hours due to negligence/stupidity of the company".

I don't mind #1 when and if it's recognized. I will NOT even play the #2 game. Ohh hell no.



vellocet said:


> Then get a job that pays by the hour and not salaried and you are good to go.


Why, when I have a salaried job and still work 40 hour weeks?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> My husband and I think the same way.
> 
> My husband does well at his job and never says anything negative while at work. His boss will praise him, yet she also prevents him from moving up and treats him poorly. He is currently looking for another job, but he is still working his butt off at his current position. As soon as he gets a good job offer, he is out of there. They don't care about him and he does not care about them(no loyalty, but works hard anyways).
> 
> Work life can be tough for many people and the grass is not always greener on the other side, so many just stay with a job that is stable enough to provide for their family. Sometimes it's easier to deal with a horrible work situation by not complaining and trying to think it your head that it's "not so bad", just to make it through.


This is all true.

Kind of like relationships and "mr. nice guy".

many people that work hard are simply taken for granted. Rather then recognize the person and reward them, MANY companies use the "niceness" against them.

I've seen this at many companies (and some). 

**** is not fair and ass backwards. 

I also see many upper managers/bosses completely blind to what's happening around them and their loyalty and trust is based on who puts on a bigger act/kisses ass most.

Personally, I let my job do the talking vs some small talk or kissing ass. But clearly kissing ass and act wins.

I'm not willing to act or kiss ass though. Sure I will be nice but I deal with realities and I don't like to blind or BS people. 

Apparently I'm the guy that will never make it far (and I'm find with that). Again, I'm not looking to get rich and what I get paid is plenty and some.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

> Defines "getting ahead in career" also how much did it actually net you.


Working hard, being there and going the extra mile netted huge for me in every job I have worked. Employers want no frills employees. That is me.


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## ThirtyYearsIn (Sep 20, 2014)

Historically speaking, loyalty has been rewarded. Many men simply have not caught up with the times.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

DoF said:


> Why, when I have a salaried job and still work 40 hour weeks?


Then enjoy.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Then enjoy.


I am

Look, I've had (and still) have your attitude and optimism about everything you talked about.

When you see things backwards for SO many years and SO many places, you tend to start to accept reality.

Sure, there is many companies out there that reward hard workers and recognize it, I just don't see it happening much around these ways.

For example, if you play golf and are buddies with upper management....it is WAY more important than ANY hard work etc. Kissing ass helps too.

I just seen SO many hard working people not succeed over the years , ti's kind of sad.

Heck, if you look our this countries entire Corporate structure, you quickly see and realize that less you do, more you get paid.

Look at a factory worker or McDonalds employee. They bust their ass (and have no choice but to) all day and don't even get enough to get by. Same for a low end office worker.

Higher you go up the ladder, especially into management.......you end up with bunch of guys with their ass above their elbow that do next to NOTHING. 

How about this. Where I work I get to see fortune 500 companies org charts and appointments.  I consistently see 1 or 2 (or handful) of guys have CEO positions or high level positions for TONS of companies.

1 guy I remember was a CEO for 100 companies!!!! Please tell me how is this even possible? What does he do? Go from Board room to board room? 

Not even (based on some meeting notes I've seen....) 

:scratchhead:

Our society seems to think that monarchy is long gone and thing of the past.

Reality is, it's well and alive MORE today then it was back in the middle ages. Anywhere you look, you see a guy or 2 having control of EVERYTHING, BUT the pictures are painted to not show that.

Most Americans will tell you that corps are ruled by people......I see the reality to be MUCH MUCH different. They are ruled by one or handful of high rollers, and anyone that gets in the way of control = crushed (to an extent of course, I realize this is not the case everywhere, but safe to say at most places)

And you better believe that Corps rule our politicians and the world.....money still talks. And to Politician's defense, they probably should. After all, people don't pay CRAP....but corps/business sector do.

If you look at the Cali Governor's salary...it's a joke, they hardly get paid what a small business CEO gets now days.

Why do you think legal corruption aka "lobbying" is thriving in this country?

And don't even get me going on intelligence level of these CEOs. Wealth/success does NOT = brains or smart. That's for sure. I'm not saying every CEO is stupid, not at all, I just have not met many wealth/successful people that were great fathers/family men or had high value of morals (I don't believe those 2 go hand in hand).

I'm a family men, I love kids and I tend to have high morals and don't like screw/or mistreat people around me. I accept that I will never be highly successful. Meanwhile (based on my standards, I already am).


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

If you work above and beyond expectations expecting to be recognized and rewarded fairly for your efforts you're most likely going to be disappointed. That's the reality.

However...for me...if I went home every day after work knowing I accomplished less than what I was capable of I simply wouldn't feel good about myself. I do what I do not for my employer but for me. 

I know it's probably not necessarily rational and if I was more mercenary I would either be earning far more than I do or working considerably less but it's ingrained in who I am.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I'll make tea said:


> Yes, I said those things.
> 
> @ those who asked: He works for a salary btw and gets boni for projects completed.
> 
> ...


I wasn't aware of your previous threads when I posted my original response. I don't take back my words there but there is a difference between being a diligent employee and staying at work late every night because you can blow off steam with buddies there and don't want to go home and face things that are not as fun (chores, taking care of kids, etc.)

Which one do you think your husband is doing? 

I work and I understand sometimes you need to work extra hours for specific work related reasons. However...if you are constantly staying 5+ hours late for weeks on end with no end date in sight and no specific reason, IMO you are either extremely inefficient at your job or there's something else going on. Such as hanging out shooting the breeze with coworkers or scared of the boss and the culture of overworking or whatever. 

He should understand that you at least need a predictable schedule for yourself as much as he can provide that for you. As as SAHM you need to have a point in the day where you can mentally tell yourself that your shift is over and you are off the clock. I don't know how old your kids are but they should also be able to have some predictable time with their father to look forward to. 

In my marriage we have a set schedule and we don't break it without heavy discussion with each other. I come home at a predictable time and so does he, barring any emergencies. When extra work is needed we either work from home after kids are in bed or we go back to the office on weekends for a few hours so that the time away does not disrupt the normal evening weekday routine. (I keep a tight ship on week nights to make sure we all eat dinner together, that he's around to spend a little time with the kids and help with homework to keep involved in the school stuff.) Can you set something like that up with your H?


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

DoF said:


> This is all true.
> 
> Kind of like relationships and "mr. nice guy".
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I see this at my job and my husband also sees this as his job, too. Those that suck up the most to the boss will get the most "rewards". I "played the game" over Christmas time in order to get more hours again since my new manager had basically cut me from the schedule. I hate doing that, but we need the money, so I unfortunately kissed his a$$(got all the managers small gift cards as a Christmas present, was ultra friendly toward them, 'praised' them for x,y,z, etc). Sadly it worked and that is what got me more hours, not the hard work I have put in while other employees hide from doing their job(and they get more hours than I do). It's very frustrating. 

My husband is like you and refuses to suck up/play the game, but I have asked him so many times to just temporarily do it so he can get a better job and he still refuses. If we weren't struggling with finances I wouldn't be bothered by that, but he is stuck at the same position and his managers treat him like crap. He goes above and beyond what his job is, and they just use him. I'm hoping and praying he gets another job offer soon from the applications and resumes he has sent out because where he is at is horrible. 

Very rarely have I ever seen a company that truly rewards hard work. Usually it's who you know and how much you can suck up to the boss. It's all really messed up. 

Putting in long hours may not do anything for his job in getting a raise or being promoted, but it may be what has to be done just to keep his job, or it can be from another reason. It's hard to make that call since I don't know the guy and how he is. You have to make that call OP.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

In my travels, I have found that those who are loyal to their employers also are more likely to be loyal to their family as well - even if their spouse doesn't appreciate the effort he's putting in to keep things afloat in a hyper-competitive corporate world.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

kag123 said:


> there is a difference between being a diligent employee and staying at work late every night because you can blow off steam with buddies there and don't want to go home and face things that are not as fun (chores, taking care of kids, etc.)


I think that's a great point. 

I've definitely seen people do this and then even play the martyr card when they do get home complaining about how hard they work.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I think that's a great point.
> 
> I've definitely seen people do this and then even play the martyr card when they do get home complaining about how hard they work.


Yes, I knew someone who deliberately worked late or went to dinner with clients or co-workers just to make sure he got home after the kids were bathed and ready for bed. Yes, their marriage ended in divorce.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

norajane said:


> Yes, I knew someone who deliberately worked late or went to dinner with clients or co-workers just to make sure he got home after the kids were bathed and ready for bed.


Is there a way to find out whether someone is really hardworking or just trying to be away from home?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I'll make tea said:


> Is there a way to find out whether someone is really hardworking or just trying to be away from home?


What does your gut tell you?


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## Methuselah (Nov 24, 2014)

vellocet said:


> At the company I was with, it netted me promotions, more money, worth the effort.


This is fine, and your work ethic is commendable.

However, like a marriage, a "job" has two "partners"... the employee, and the employer.

You can be the most dedicated, loyal, hard-working employee on the Planet Earth... but if you have an employer who does not recognize and reward those things you bring to the "relationship" (e.g. 'meet your needs' in the 'relationship'), then what?

I am retired for the most part, so I no longer worry about these things, but is my understanding from my children and grandchildren who are active in the job market that virtually all employers these days look at their employees merely as a 'cost center' to be managed, rather than an asset which can make a positive contribution to the company and help it grow.

Thus, much like in a marriage... if your employer (spouse) doesn't care about you... why would you care back? Why should you be "loyal" to an employer (spouse) who is not loyal to you? Why should you put yourself out for your employer (spouse) when the employer is not willing to step up to the plate for you?

If you "give it all" to your employer, and your employer does not reciprocate by meeting your needs (raises, promotions, other forms of recognition, etc.) then I don't call you "loyal"... I call you an idiot.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Methuselah said:


> This is fine, and your work ethic is commendable.
> 
> However, like a marriage, a "job" has two "partners"... the employee, and the employer.
> 
> You can be the most dedicated, loyal, hard-working employee on the Planet Earth... but if you have an employer who does not recognize and reward those things you bring to the "relationship" (e.g. 'meet your needs' in the 'relationship'), then what?


I understand that not all employers will recognize hard work. And those employers are doing themselves a disservice.

But if one is apathetic and decides to do the bare minimum and a lousy work ethic, then that is sure to get them nowhere(aside from those that simply know someone, or get ahead because of nepotism, etc.)

But if I work hard, go above an beyond the call of duty for my employer, and employer treats me like dirt, then I will find someone that does want someone that is interested in making the company as successful as possible.



> If you "give it all" to your employer, and your employer does not reciprocate by meeting your needs (raises, promotions, other forms of recognition, etc.) then I don't call you "loyal"... I call you an idiot.


Only if one doesn't make a move. I'm not going to go above the call of duty for an employer indefinitely if they have no interest in rewarding my work. But I have found few of those myself. I guess its just the companies I pick. Sure, I've worked jobs in my younger days for a paycheck until I find the employer that values a hard worker.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I see this at my job and my husband also sees this as his job, too. Those that suck up the most to the boss will get the most "rewards". I "played the game" over Christmas time in order to get more hours again since my new manager had basically cut me from the schedule. I hate doing that, but we need the money, so I unfortunately kissed his a$$(got all the managers small gift cards as a Christmas present, was ultra friendly toward them, 'praised' them for x,y,z, etc). Sadly it worked and that is what got me more hours, not the hard work I have put in while other employees hide from doing their job(and they get more hours than I do). It's very frustrating.
> 
> ...


It's a moral boundary you are asking him to jump over. If he is anything like me, he simply won't do that. Ask him to take baby steps, that's what I do, I don't kiss ass, but I will engage in small talk about bosses favorite subjects here and there.

I simply refuse to lower my standards to "norm of our society" like kissing ass etc.

As for you needing money, not sure if I believe that. I would recommend cutting down on expenses or downgrading vs asking him to be a *****.



you are hitting his man genes. And be thankful he has them cause most men that engage in the behavior we are talking about.....I don't really call "man".

I also don't like people that put on an act. To me they are fake and I have 0 respect for them. Chances are high your husband feels this way too.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Methuselah said:


> This is fine, and your work ethic is commendable.
> 
> However, like a marriage, a "job" has two "partners"... the employee, and the employer.
> 
> ...


Agreed

Heck, my CEO and # of managers came from COMPETITION.

What does that tell me?You? 

They were not exactly loyal to their own employers (are backstabbers). Quite opposite from "great types of folks" in my book.

Loyalty MY ASS


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I'll make tea said:


> Is there a way to find out whether someone is really hardworking or just trying to be away from home?


Do you express things to your husband the way you do here? I know most people come here to vent but you bring up a lot of issues you have with your husband and I'm wondering if you express those things to him at home? And how often?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Methuselah said:


> If you "give it all" to your employer, and your employer does not reciprocate by meeting your needs (raises, promotions, other forms of recognition, etc.) then I don't call you "loyal"... I call you an idiot.


I disagree with that statement. There seems to be a sentiment today that something is only wrong if you can be convicted for it and only worthwhile to do if you're duly recognized for it. What about doing a good job simply so you can take pride in what you've accomplished? Why is that being an idiot?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> Do you express things to your husband the way you do here? I know most people come here to vent but you bring up a lot of issues you have with your husband and I'm wondering of you express those things to him at home? And how often?


I think that's a great point.

I've seen plenty of these types. They would rather be at work doing something they hate then be home.

LOTS of miserable men in marriages out there from what I see.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening I'llmaketea
Is he happy at home? 

It isn't a black / white issue. If he is unhappy at home, he may convince himself that he needs to work longer hours - its just a natural tendency to spend less time doing things he does't enjoy. He might not even be aware that he is doing it.

I know I did this for many years when my wife wasn't affectionate. It wasn't really conscious. I felt needed, respected, at work but not at home. I spent time where I felt I was wanted. 




I'll make tea said:


> Is there a way to find out whether someone is really hardworking or just trying to be away from home?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening I'llmaketea
> Is he happy at home?
> 
> It isn't a black / white issue. If he is unhappy at home, he may convince himself that he needs to work longer hours - its just a natural tendency to spend less time doing things he does't enjoy. He might not even be aware that he is doing it.
> ...


Yep

Thankfully in my marriage there has only been 1 day exactly when I felt I should just work longer/stay longer vs go home (and it wasn't because of extra work either).

I told my wife I don't want to feel that way ever again.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> Do you express things to your husband the way you do here? I know most people come here to vent but you bring up a lot of issues you have with your husband and I'm wondering if you express those things to him at home? And how often?


I don't really know how to answer that question. Sometimes I do - and sometimes I don't.

Sometimes hubby does just so sweet things. I woke up in the middle of the night and saw him holding the baby... and he told me that he often woke up when the baby cried and tried to comfort him and let me sleep. I thought that was just so sweet. I rarely write here when hubby does something sweet but I tell him.
Basically I come here to vent but I do talk to him about the things I mention here... and sometimes I do tell him that I am really disappointed with something he does (or rather does not do).

I *sometimes* feel I am losing my respect because when we married he promised "if you follow me you won't regret it" but after that he did not seem to be interested in my needs very much.
I often trusted and followed his lead and feel a bit let down... and when I was angry I told him things I later regretted though I told him I was sorry later.

So sometimes I say things that are not very nice, but then I think many people would act like this if their spouses constantly promises them things that do not happen.

I actually do hate it when we argue but then what would other people do in my position?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

I had A LOT of respect for my hubby when we married. I would have sworn that his word was his bound and he had the most moral and upstanding character ever because that is the way he presents himself... but now I am not so sure... either a lot of things happen all the time that keep him from doing the things he promised and he is just the most unlucky fellow ever or he just does not care.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I *sometimes* feel I am losing my respect because when we married he promised "if you follow me you won't regret it" but after that he did not seem to be interested in my needs very much.
> I often trusted and followed his lead and feel a bit let down... and when I was angry I told him things I later regretted though I told him I was sorry later.
> 
> So sometimes I say things that are not very nice, but then I think many people would act like this if their spouses constantly promises them things that do not happen.
> ...


Do all discussions of your needs not being met, or needs you wish were met, lead to arguments?

Have you tried discussing your needs with him when you aren't angry, but are calm?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

norajane said:


> Do all discussions of your needs not being met, or needs you wish were met, lead to arguments?


They actually lead to nothing. He just smiles and says okay (while secretly thinking "**** you"???)

It was actually very easy to win my respect back. Just say the things you mean and mean the things you say and consider my needs once in a while and I will try my best to consider his. I am not a person who holds grudges.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

So he pretends to humor you instead of listening and paying attention to your unhappiness and needs, and then doing something about it? 

Grr, that wouldn't last long in my house. I'd be making things very uncomfortable as I met my needs for myself and ignored his. 

Maybe he's too comfortable with the way things are, and you really don't rock the boat much. It might be time to let him know that you are really serious and his fake promises aren't working for you now and will not work for you long term.

You are an important part of this couple, just as important as he is. It's not all about him and what he wants.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

If I make him umcomfortable wouldn't that make him detach more?

May be he is sensing he is not really respected... and in turn "flees"... and in turn gets less respect... I vicious circle.

I am not a feminist AT ALL and would love to be with a man I can look up to and respect... and I would nearly blindly follow a man who considers my needs


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't know what promises he's made that he's not keeping, or what needs of yours he's not meeting. But I would make him uncomfortable by talking about those things as often as it takes for him to realize he can't just continue to ignore you or his marriage is going to fall apart, as it's starting to. 

Chronically feeling like your needs don't matter IS going to make your marriage fall apart. It's only a matter of time before resentment builds and you won't want to follow him at all. YOU will then detach if nothing changes, and eventually, you'll have some decisions to make about what kind of life you want to have and what kind of marriage you want your kids to witness and learn from.

Yes, he might start detaching more if you stand up for yourself. Things might get worse before they get better. That's what rocking the boat means. It will make things uncomfortable but if he's comfortable the way things are and you are not, you have no choice but to make things uncomfortable for him. 

He's currently not listening to you, so if you don't do something different, what will change? Nothing.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Really? There is still someone on this board who does not know what promises he broke?
I thought I whined so much about it that everybody knows it.

* He is afraid of crowds but he did not tell me from the beginning. Always came up with excuses... very lousy ones. Then I saw him having a panic attack and understood... no shame in being afraid of crowds... but you have to tell your spouse so she can make plans for herself.

* He is "addicted" to caffeine - in a way that is really not good and he promised to quit but was using caffeine gums. When I confronted him he played to innocent victim and claimed that he did not know I was unaware that there were "energy gums". He pretended that he believed everybody knew it.

* He comes constantly home later than promised

* We currently live in a house in the country. We rented it but he wants to buy it. I said it might be too lonely for me (we have but one car and he uses it to get to work). He said if I don't like it we don't have to buy it, now he is always talking about buying it and what he wants to do next and so on. He still says we will have a look at other houses. He does not want to do it now because he has a lot of stress now. He does not want me to do it because he does not want to make that decision while so stressed... but if he brakes this promise... that would really make me lose all respect. That is the one time I trust him again but if I should realize I was wrong to trust I will never trust him again EVER


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Does he know you've lost respect for him due to his deceptions, and because he never comes home on time, and because you feel duped about the house?

Does he know how close he is to losing your trust and respect forever?


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

norajane said:


> But I would make him uncomfortable by talking about those things as often as it takes for him to realize he can't just continue to ignore you or his marriage is going to fall apart, as it's starting to.


I feel that if you take this tactic it will drive him away from you even more. Most likely he is already uncomfortable and that is why he takes refuge in work. If it unpleasant to walk in your front door you are going to keep away from your front door. 

Imt, from everything you've posted about your husband I actually relate to him and understand his reaction to you. (JLD is probably chuckling because I told her the same). Maybe I think like a guy, idk. 

Your husband sounds like he needs peace. You speak at him constantly about your needs not being met and because you are not presenting in a away that he can relate to it becomes chatter to him, chatter that goes on and on. He tunes it out and that's why you get the "yes, dear" answers. 

You communicate but not in a way that he understands or will make him gravitate toward you. It's having an opposite effect, he's pulling away from you. 

A key to improve your marriage is understanding, accepting and working with your husband. As it sits I see you working against him and being disappointed in him for trying to achieve goals he has established. That does not mean that you don't get any of your needs met. It just means that your husband displays that he enjoys teamwork and by everything you have stated he doesn't feel like you are on his team. 

So he pulls away and stays where he feels a part of a team, where he is valued for his contribution. Not critiqued at every turn. 

Translation: 
You express your needs. 

He hears you critiquing him. 

I realize this is not your intent, that you just want some things to change so you feel happy but that is not what he hears.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Any suggestions on what she can do to get through to him? How can she express her unmet needs and issues so that he will pay attention?

Because if he does nothing and just feels critiqued when she talks about her needs, he's setting the stage for a walkaway wife who just can't take it anymore because her needs are ignored while she's busy walking on eggshells so as not to make him feel critiqued.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> Maybe I think like a guy, idk.


May be. I actually thought you were one until now 
I like it because I want people explaining my husbands perspective to me. It is what I am actually looking for.




coffee4me said:


> You communicate but not in a way that he understands or will make him gravitate toward you. It's having an opposite effect, he's pulling away from you.


I don't understand why he does not understand what I am saying or how I could communicate with him...



coffee4me said:


> It just means that your husband displays that he enjoys teamwork and by everything you have stated he doesn't feel like you are on his team.


That is very unfair because I am not the one who constantly breaks her promises. He did for example ask me to grow vegetables. I do *hate it with passion* but I did it and not only did I do it I tried to learn more about it so I could do my very best on this job I hated because I really wanted him to be pleased with me.




coffee4me said:


> So he pulls away and stays where he feels a part of a team, where he is valued for his contribution. Not critiqued at every turn.
> 
> Translation:
> You express your needs.
> ...


I don't want him to be unhappy but I want him to know that I am unhappy with some things. 

So how should I say "There is no way I am going to live in that house" or "Be home on time" without saying it?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

What are the consequences behind is lack of action? 

Also, what exactly made you lose respect for him?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

You sound very isolated. 

I didn't follow your past threads so I don't know your history beyond what you've shared here. 

I understand your sentiments about wanting a man to lead and being happy to play the role of supportive wife. I get it. But supportive wife does not = doormat. 

Is there a reason you cannot get a second vehicle so that you can have a bit more independence? You said you live out in the country so I am guessing that means you have no options in terms of public transportation. I just think that if you had something that was FOR YOU, your issues might not seem so big to you. Doesn't have to be getting a job per se but joining a gym (most have childcare), a mom's group, even just getting your kid(s) involved in activities or taking them to the library once in awhile. 

It sounds like right now your entire world is sitting around waiting for him to come home and tell you what to do next. If that is true, it will most certainly magnify your feelings of annoyance or anger with things like his staying late at work. 

Why don't you push the issue of moving if you are so unhappy there? He can be the leader but you can still have input.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

DoF said:


> Also, what exactly made you lose respect for him?


The fact that I feel he does not respect me. He is not dependable.

When he for example told me we were going somewhere together and I cancelled all my other plans... and then we did end up not going...

It's basically like saying my plans where wothless anyway... no big deal I cancelled them just to be disappointed again.

I did not really lose respect yet. It's a process. I still want to respect him.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

kag123 said:


> Why don't you push the issue of moving if you are so unhappy there? He can be the leader but you can still have input.


I did and he told me he has heard me and we will look for other houses to buy. He just doesn't want to do it yet because he says he feels to stressed... but should that be a lie I will be so disappointed...


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> The fact that I feel he does not respect me. He is not dependable.
> 
> When he for example told me we were going somewhere together and I cancelled all my other plans... and then we did end up not going...
> 
> ...


Deal with things like above as they come. What did you do after he stood you up? Did you have a conversation about it? How it made you feel and how wrong it is?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> I did and he told me he has heard me and we will look for other houses to buy. He just doesn't want to do it yet because he says he feels to stressed... but should that be a lie I will be so disappointed...


Ask him what makes him feel stressed?


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I'll make tea said:


> " he doesn't feel you are on his team"
> 
> That is very unfair because I am not the one who constantly breaks her promises. He did for example ask me to grow vegetables. I do *hate it with passion* but I did it and not only did I do it I tried to learn more about it so I could do my very best on this job I hated because I really wanted him to be pleased with me.


I really do get that want to be on your husbands team. But fair or unfair he probably doesn't feel like you are. Why? 

He's has plans and a goals which you are not on board with. Although you even admitted you agreed and went along with the plans, you did not object. You are dissatisfied with his behavior, etc. you think he doesn't feel that? 

You said that you supported him with the garden but you "hate it with a passion". Do you think he doesn't know that? Sense that by your attitude? So you did it grudgingly, that does not make a person feel teamwork it makes them feel like a dictator. 

He has a dream/goal to have a home, not an apt. He found this place and you agreed but now you don't support being in this house. He knows that. He's not supported in this plan for a family home, he feels like an a*hole for making you live here but can't see a viable solution to the issue in the immediate future. Too much on his plate now and he's stressed to the max. (Exhibited in the hand biting) 

You are mad at him for not living up to his promises about taking you places. You said he has PTSD. So you would prefer that he take to you to crowed, noisy places and put his mental health at risk. Whats more important to you? Holding him to that promise or his mental health? You said he lied to you about that, is it conceivable that he wasn't experiencing his symptoms as badly at the time he met you? PTSD goes through phases and he also sounds like the type who perhaps thought he might be able to overcome the issue at the time he made those promises. He doesn't feel supported in his struggle with PTSD he feels blamed. It's all his fault. 

He works a lot trying to establish himself in a new field. He is competing against younger men, his job is not stable and he is the primary bread winner in the house. He works a lot and is then met with complaints about how much he works. That would not make him feel supported. 

So you see, just as you do not feel that you are being heard or understood your husband probably feels the same way. I wouldn't want to come home to a place where I felt judged and unsupported and I certainly wouldn't be jumping through hoops to meet the needs of a partner who made me feel like they had no interest in meeting my needs. 

OTTH, if I felt supported and felt teamwork I'd be wanting to meet my partners needs and I'd be wanting to come home to a partner that makes me feel supported. Then home is my refuge not my battlefield. 

I'm not in any way trying to put blame on you Imt, please understand that's not my intent but faced with all you have stated I'm simply interpreting the way it would make me feel and perhaps your husband feels similar.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

norajane said:


> Any suggestions on what she can do to get through to him? How can she express her unmet needs and issues so that he will pay attention?.


First you have to take into account what she's said about her husband that is he no nonsense, he's been through a war so many things she brings up as issues to her are not issues in his eyes, again reinforcing why she she gets the "yes dear" answers. 

Pick and choose your battles with someone like this. They don't hear "these are my needs". They hear, "these are my wants and I'm complaining that I'm not getting them". 

Take the house. He has thought about property value for price paid, school district, the fact that he needs a place more quiet due to his PTSD, he thought about the space it provides for the kids to grow up and play. 

She doesn't want to live there because its a lot of work and too isolated, and that's ok for her to feel that way but if that is the only thing she brings to the table then it sounds like a complaint not a legitimate need to move. 

If I were her I'd be not only saying that I want to move but would have researched all the angles of real estate in the area and put into numbers the current property value, projected costs of improvement etc. I would have looked for an alternative neighborhood and location that is a viable compromise taking into account all the aspects the H took into account in selecting this property. 

Basically if you don't like this plan now, you have changed your mind about living here. Then give me a viable alternative and plan. Don't just say, I don't like it you fix this. That is not teamwork.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, I agree I'd be doing the real estate work, and I'd be setting up viewings myself and going to them and narrowing it down to my top picks. But I can leave the house all by myself because I'm not trapped without a car.

It's not teamwork to lie and hide your PTSD until it's too late (i.e., after marriage) so that your spouse is now blindsided that you can't do anything with her outside the house if it involves crowds.

It's also not teamwork to make plans that require your spouse to break her plans, and then to not show up.

It's also not teamwork to leave her in an isolated house with no transportation so she is locked at home and can't go anywhere and can't do anything but tend to a garden she hates. Are there children? What if there's an emergency? What if one of them needs to go to a doctor? 

It's also not teamwork to work late all the time, later than you say you will, so that your spouse not only has no idea when you'll get home, but also cannot leave the house. Because he works late so often, she can't even go do her thing in the evenings because she is trapped and isolated, which we know is often the first step in abusive marriages. Isolate them from everyone and give them no way to get out. Boom, done. 

It's also not teamwork to SAY you will consider moving elsewhere when you won't do a damn thing about looking except to blame your inaction on stress (which will never go away because you have PTSD and bite your hands and aren't doing anything about it).

It's also not teamwork to ignore your spouse's needs.

There's a lot going on here, and I don't think that IMT should sit on her hands and shut her mouth to appease him so that he thinks she's a team player. That's how resentment starts, and she's been going along with his plans all this time, so I imagine there's already a boatload of resentment that's being swept under the rug at the moment.

Men who don't listen when their wives keep bringing up the same issues over and over are often blindsided when their wives leave.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

To the original question, I really don't know. I'm a guy, but my identity has never been tied to my job. My job is something I enjoy in a "normal" way, but I'm not tied to it, and i don't figure out ways I can spend more time there. 

Most people that I know, however, like stuff, and the more they work and make, the more stuff they can have. It's just not worth it to me.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I never said she should sit on her hands and appease him, clearly she needs to find a way to get through to him. But unless she begins to understand how he thinks that will never happen!

He doesn't hear what she is saying because it sounds like complaining to him so either she tries a different tactic or nothing changes. 

She can research all the things about real estate on the computer that's how most people do it nowadays. 

She can beat the PTSD thing like a dead horse but there's no solution to that issue. He has it and the only thing to do is manage it going forward not keep looking back. 

I would tell her if its a deal breaker to leave already but she is from a culture where divorce is rare. So that's not likely to happen.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

southbound said:


> To the original question.


Sorry for derailing the thread.
I am happy for all answers to the original question which help me understand how you guys think.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

I can go to town. There is a bus. It's just a bit complicated because when I am done with my chores it is often already to late to go and be back on time (because I always try to be there when my husband is supposed to be back... though he often is not there then).


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

DoF said:


> What did you do after he stood you up? Did you have a conversation about it? How it made you feel and how wrong it is?


When that happened he made it look like it was never his fault. There were always circumstances beyond his control to blame. First I was not even angry with him because I did not realize what was going on. I blamed it on the circumstances... then I started being angry and hurt and told him. When it happened again and again I started being very angry, shouting at him, banging doors and so on. Then I saw him have a panic attack and felt just sad and have not complained to him when he stood me up again since.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

It's true I agreed on moving to this house but only because my husband told me he would work less and start taking the family places.
I always told him I thought it was to isolated.

He did not keep his promise. May be he really planed to and things did not unfold as he hoped. That would be okay if he is willing to correct his mistake.

There is two possibilities:

1. He meant to keep his promise. He works so hard only to give us a good life.
or
2. He does not care about us. I nagged to much, now he emotionally walked out on me

My husband does not want me to search for homes now. He is not feeling well, he has a lot of stress but does not know exactly why - like feeling stressed for no good reason. There seems to be a problem with his thyroid which may add to that.
He wants to look for homes together with me but not now, he does not know exactly when and asked me to be patient.

I am actually a little worried and I think I am going to believe his promise one more time but if he disappoints me I will be heartbroken.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

PTSD from being in a combat zone is no joke. My dad is a Vietnam vet (was on the front lines and was the only soldier from his unit to make it out alive) and he still to this day cannot watch anything on TV with war scenes and visibly reacts to loud noises (like fireworks). 

I hope he is in therapy. What kind of treatment is he getting?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I'll make tea said:


> Sorry for derailing the thread.
> I am happy for all answers to the original question which help me understand how you guys think.


Oh, no problem; I do the same thing. It's difficult for a question to not branch off into many related areas.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most men are self defined by what they do for the most part. 

The key to success is to find a niche that has multiple parts but there are no people except you who can do all the parts . Don't be a one trick pony. I'm a 3-4 trick pony (A$$ is more like it) and finding someone with > 2 tricks is not easy. Also be consistent, don't over promise, and never trust miracle workers or miracle vendors.

I rarely work over 40 hours a week and will have 30 years with the same company next summer. I could make twice the money elsewhere if you believe the steady stream of LinkedIn interview requests but if I have to work 60+ hours a week and live in Seattle I would be taking a pay cut...


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

The free food and all the toilet water you can drink. Heaven.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> When that happened he made it look like it was never his fault. There were always circumstances beyond his control to blame. First I was not even angry with him because I did not realize what was going on. I blamed it on the circumstances... then I started being angry and hurt and told him. When it happened again and again I started being very angry, shouting at him, banging doors and so on. Then I saw him have a panic attack and felt just sad and have not complained to him when he stood me up again since.


What were the circumstances beyond his control?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

vellocet said:


> Because that's how you get ahead in life. As opposed to those that complain they don't make any money and do the bare minimum and put in 8 hours and only 8 hours a day, if that.
> 
> When I was first starting out, I was salaried. If I worked over, no extra money.
> 
> ...


The part that I don't do is complain. I guess the definition of getting ahead is personal. I do my best at my job, but I don't work overtime, weekends, or have extra projects. I feel i am ahead, however, because I make a decent living, and I have piece of mind and a stress free life. I agree that nobody ever said on their death bed, "Gee, I wish I'd spent more time at the office."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I work overtime on the rare occasion it's paid...


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> What were the circumstances beyond his control?


He has really lousy excuses. For example there is always something with the weather. We cannot go a place because the weather is too hot, too cold, too rainy, too windy.
Or he comes late and then get's ready really, really slowly... and then says "Oh, now we cannot go. It's too late".
In the past I often asked him to make haste or it will be too late again and he said he just wanted to be sure he had everything. Checked a gazillion of times if he really had everything and then it was really to late.... and pretended to be sooooo sorry.
Or the place is smelly. We are sitting in a restaurant when he said: "We can't stay here. This place smells like food"
Or we cannot stay in a place because it is too loud and the toddler hates it (while the toddler is most obviously enjoying himself).

I cannot even say why I believed this in the past. Guess because I wanted to believe him.

It hurts. He has the lousiest excuses ever. Can't he spend at least some time of his day to come up with an excuse that does not insult my intelligence. Smells like food! What do you expect when you visit a restaurant?

Makes me angry just to rite about that. It is not his fault he is afraid but he owes me some accountability and predictability.

Like: "I did not want to stay in the restaurant because I was afraid of the X or the Y triggered me" in this case we could find a restaurant together that does not have the X and the Y or decide not to go to restaurants anymore.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

kag123 said:


> PTSD from being in a combat zone is no joke. My dad is a Vietnam vet (was on the front lines and was the only soldier from his unit to make it out alive) and he still to this day cannot watch anything on TV with war scenes and visibly reacts to loud noises (like fireworks).
> 
> I hope he is in therapy. What kind of treatment is he getting?


I am sorry to hear that  and really it's hard to put for me into words how sorry.

He does CBT which is proven to work well for that kind of things.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

I cannot understandy why we can't work together. I'll be supportive and won't blame him.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

I actually suggested that we don't go places anymore several times in the past... but no he WANTED to do it and BEGGED me to believe him and SWORE it and like I said when we moved to the new home he promised everything will change and we will go places.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> He has really lousy excuses. For example there is always something with the weather. We cannot go a place because the weather is too hot, too cold, too rainy, too windy.
> Or he comes late and then get's ready really, really slowly... and then says "Oh, now we cannot go. It's too late".
> In the past I often asked him to make haste or it will be too late again and he said he just wanted to be sure he had everything. Checked a gazillion of times if he really had everything and then it was really to late.... and pretended to be sooooo sorry.
> Or the place is smelly. We are sitting in a restaurant when he said: "We can't stay here. This place smells like food"
> ...


If you feel there are other "real" reasons for him not wanting to go, what do you think they are?

Also, do you have access to your bank accounts?

Also, what does your family think of him?

Also, are you familiar with agoraphobia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoraphobia


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Op, he could have developed a comorbid condition because of his PTSD, like agoraphobia. I believe for right now you need to stop thinking his choices are because he doesn't care about you. I believe he experiences emotional pain to a greater degree than you realize and right now this man needs compassion and emotional safety before you are going to know the real reasons behind his choices. You need to choose to believe this man loves you regardless of your current perspective. If you don't, it is possible to miss the reality. When a persons emotional pain towards public places is high enough they will display avoidance behaviors like taking too long to get ready and finding ANY excuse, no matter how lame to keep from going. Its not about their lack of love. Its about their pain being front and center and seeking relief. You will need to understand emotional pressure and behaviors that come from that to navigate this well. Right now, your own emotional pressure is sky high. What can you do to get some relief so that you can come back to this situation in a calmer state?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> If you feel there are other "real" reasons for him not wanting to go, what do you think they are?
> 
> Also, do you have access to your bank accounts?
> 
> ...


Yes, I do understand he is afraid of going places. Other real reasons: Getting pleasure out of annoying people? I actually don't have any idea what is going on inside of his head.

Not everybody in my family think the same of him but some who know about this think he is a big old tomato soup sandwich cake souffle. 

What has any of this to do with bank accounts?


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

I understand people with PTSD avoid places but what I don't understand is why they need to come up with lousy excuses ("smells like food" and so on) and I basically wonder if he can be trusted. If I now say "Okay. I'll wait until you are better and let's look for the house then". Can he be trusted - yes or no?

That's my question.



> What can you do to get some relief so that you can come back to this situation in a calmer state?


What can I do? Nothing! May be if I learned about a person who behaved like this and nevertheless loved his wife a lot and she could depend on him that would help a lot.

What can he do? Show me he is dependable.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

If I could find some people who did the same things and nevertheless loved their wifes that would help a lot... but I have no idea where to find that people.

I know of some spouses whose guys behave like this but because I cannot know what their guys are thinking I don't know if they love them.

I don't think anybody who behaves like this would ever talk with me about it because it is a highly personal topic.

Whenever I try to speak about this with my husband he just smiles and results to jokes.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Do you have access to the bank accounts and know the ebb and flow of the finances with your own eyes instead of what he tells you?

I'm focused on determining where his pain is coming from and some men can experience intense pain over money. 

Ignore the lame excuses right now.

Until you get to the bottom of his issue and he is further down the road of recovery you will have to accept that he ISN'T available to you. 


If he does not possess the capacity, which is what I am trying to determine, your approach will need to be different.

I AM that person you wish to find, you just don't like what I'm telling you. I have PTSD and I also believe my H has it to a degree though not as severe as mine and there have been times he has not been available to me and visa versa, but we love each other through it.

Calm down the defensive posture. I am trying to help you.

There is a book that will help you understand my angle The Emotionally Unavailable Man. I believe the book applies to both genders.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

kag123 said:


> PTSD from being in a combat zone is no joke. My dad is a Vietnam vet (was on the front lines and was the only soldier from his unit to make it out alive) and he still to this day cannot watch anything on TV with war scenes and visibly reacts to loud noises (like fireworks).
> 
> I hope he is in therapy. What kind of treatment is he getting?


You are correct.

I have seen studies where they have soliders face their fears (on TV) and watch it over and over. It doesn't resolve the issue, but it does trick the brain to start accepting them/move on.

It has helped many vets.......they also recommend Mary J.....


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Are you participating in his therapy? If not I think you should be. At least to some extent. He may not be completely truthful with the therapist as to how bad it's affecting him. The therapist should know about the excuses when you go out thing. The therapist should give him tips to cope without panicking and she should also be telling you how to cope and help (i.e., is it too soon to expect normal outings? Are certain places better than others in her mind? Tips for you as his wife to help him be successful in outings?) These are things I would want to know from his therapist. 

You should be seeking therapy for yourself as well. Not because there is anything wrong with you but because you are married to man who is so emotionally fragile that right now you need your own counsel to lean on and to help you navigate what expectations are realistic for your situation. 

My perspective of your H from what you have shared on this thread is a man full of shame, low self esteem and avoidance. He avoids you because he has to answer to you...you (rightly so) press him to move forward with his life which means he would have to face his demons. Which is SCARY to him. He avoids you by staying late at work and tries to appease you by making all these promises about outings and such, which he then continues to try to avoid through excuses. It's fear. Then I am sure he feels loads of shame for failing you once AGAIN especially when your disappointment is very evident. 
My original suggestion remains - for right now try to fulfill some of your own needs without him. Find things to get you out of the house more so there is less pressure on him to "take you out". This does not excuse him from participating forever but would hopefully help to lessen his avoidance of home and you. 

Men are taught to hide fear and I am sure he does not want to tell you "honey, I am too scared to take you to the restaurant". He KNOWS that sounds crazy! A phobia (such as agoraphobia) is really a mind phuck to the sufferer. They know that they are being irrational and they probably can't even tell you in words what the "worst" thing that could happen is and even WHY it would be so bad. It's not rational. For a strong person who is accustomed to rational thinking it is accepting that you are certifiably insane to admit to someone you are scared of something so innocuous. 

I would also insist that you talk to his therapist, get your own therapist and explain to your H that you want to help him get better and you do not wish to stress him out. Use your therapist to receive recommendations and get a gut check as to where you should push him and where you should let it go. 

It's a lot for you both to deal with. He knows that I am sure and it adds to his guilt and shame that he's dragging you down with him. Somewhere deep down you need to make your own decision...do you love him enough to stay with him even if things never get better than they are right now? (There is no right or wrong answer IMO, just a fact of how much you feel you can put up with)


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## homerjay (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm not. I'm loyal to the extent they provide me with a good job, good benefits/conditions, opportunities, etc. 

If not, then screw them, I find additional work..


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## ManHusbandFather (Jan 18, 2015)

I think it's due to the provider mentality. Whether it's in us men because that's what a man is meant to do or it's in us as it's what a man has done in the past, I can't say.

Even though nowadays, as with my wife (she makes as much as I do), women are working and earning good livings, I feel inside, naturally and instinctively, that her income is optional.

When it comes right down to it, I HAVE to make money to support our family. The fact that she does is wonderful, but I don't expect it at all.

Maybe this is why I work so hard. I feel everyone is depending on me and it's my responsibility.

I think if women think this is sexist, these feelings are not because I think less of women.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ManHusbandFather said:


> I think it's due to the provider mentality. Whether it's in us men because that's what a man is meant to do or it's in us as it's what a man has done in the past, I can't say.
> 
> Even though nowadays, as with my wife (she makes as much as I do), women are working and earning good livings, I feel inside, naturally and instinctively, that her income is optional.
> 
> ...


How does your wife feel about this view? Does she feel her hard work and her contribution to the family finances is devalued (by you) because you consider it optional?


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## ManHusbandFather (Jan 18, 2015)

norajane said:


> How does your wife feel about this view? Does she feel her hard work and her contribution to the family finances is devalued (by you) because you consider it optional?


I just mean that if she wanted to stay home I would fully support it. She always has that option. I don't consider me staying home an option. This is what I mean about her income being optional.

It doesn't come down to value really. What my wife does is valuable in that it contributes to our family whether it's at home or at work.


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## ManHusbandFather (Jan 18, 2015)

To add, I've said this to her based on comments SHE made and she wants to work. I'm fine with that. It's her choice. She likes to work to have the nicer things in life.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

Thanks a lot and sorry I have not been answering sooner. In fact I have not done that because I have A LOT to say and don't know to get it all into one post.

I have been talking to a relative whom I love and adore about my husband. He said he thinks my hubby really planned to do those things but it did not work out like this and that I should give him a little kick in the *** from time to time to help him overcome his anxiety but not start a "war against him".
He also thinks that the house is really not that horrible.

I tried to look at my husband "with the eyes of love" again. Everytime I saw him and he made me angry I tried to think "My hero. I am so proud of you!!!" or something like this. It worked!!!!!

I tried to treat him very loving in the last days and I noticed that in turn he seemed to be a bit more relaxed and more loving which made me feel more loving and have more respect for him again.

@ Blossom Leigh: Thanks for sharing. Did you have the same symptoms?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

That's great to hear, keep up the good work!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> He has really lousy excuses. For example there is always something with the weather. We cannot go a place because the weather is too hot, too cold, too rainy, too windy.
> Or he comes late and then get's ready really, really slowly... and then says "Oh, now we cannot go. It's too late".
> In the past I often asked him to make haste or it will be too late again and he said he just wanted to be sure he had everything. Checked a gazillion of times if he really had everything and then it was really to late.... and pretended to be sooooo sorry.
> Or the place is smelly. We are sitting in a restaurant when he said: "We can't stay here. This place smells like food"
> ...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I'll make tea said:


> He has really lousy excuses. For example there is always something with the weather. We cannot go a place because the weather is too hot, too cold, too rainy, too windy.
> Or he comes late and then get's ready really, really slowly... and then says "Oh, now we cannot go. It's too late".
> In the past I often asked him to make haste or it will be too late again and he said he just wanted to be sure he had everything. Checked a gazillion of times if he really had everything and then it was really to late.... and pretended to be sooooo sorry.
> Or the place is smelly. We are sitting in a restaurant when he said: "We can't stay here. This place smells like food"
> ...


You were told many times here that he needs serious professional help. he refuses, it affects the whole family, you complain, nothing changes. You said it is not fair to make him get help. Well, what else can be done?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

coffee4me said:


> First you have to take into account what she's said about her husband that is he no nonsense, he's been through a war so many things she brings up as issues to her are not issues in his eyes, again reinforcing why she she gets the "yes dear" answers.


her husband has serious mental issues, that affect the whole family and refuses professional help. The OP also refuses to stand up for the family and make him get help, because she it does not feel right to her to do so. Instead she chooses to nag and complain to him all the time, and then creates another thread on TAM, while omitting all those details.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

That's just so untrue! He is doing CBT.

You are talking about when I did not ASAP force him to take another antidepressant when he had come off his old ones by threatening to divorce him.
Instead I only told him he had my support no matter if he tried a new one or not but that I would hope he gave it a try.

Know what? A short time later he DECIDED to give it another try. Did not like the new medication by the way.
He is not an idiot who has no idea what he is doing and must be threatened.


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## Depth.Inside (Jul 5, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Financial uncertainty for a married man with children is a very big deal.
> There is certainly a perceived safety in the devil you know, rather than the devil you don't.


Game and Match....

Even though my wife and kids are far too spoiled, one of my biggest concerns in life is that they will actually have to do without. If it meant my working two jobs to keep things in the right place, I would..


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

OP, you are learning the art of acceptance, release, relaxation. It gives your H room to respond. SO PROUD OF YOU!!! 

Yes, I have been known to chew my hands too when I am stressed. Your H's sounds more intense than mine, but when my H and I were at each other's throats it was worse. If you had grabbed my hand to make me stop I would have been PISSED at you since that is a boundary. That's invading space. I think as you ease up, flow with him more, some of these things will naturally subside. The rest can be handled with his counselor. Accept the house for now as long as your H is open to options in the future. Just make a loving home.


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