# Do you think forcing us to wait makes us want it less?



## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I don't know if I've ever asked this question explicitly and directly so here goes:

Women: when you withhold sex from your man (for whatever reason), and the complain that he gets more and more needy, do you really honestly think that making him wait longer is going to make him want sex less?

I can understand that there are frustrations in place for why you don't want to have sex with him. But as days become weeks and months, he is just going to get more and more demanding and frustrated!

What I really don't understand is why you'll go so long without actually COMMUNICATING with him. Its one thing to withhold because you are upset, but to give him absolutely no clue WHY you are upset (hence, no opportunity to fix it) just makes him even madder! Now he feels deprived, unloved, undesired, and totally in the dark.

The way I see it, every day you don't have sex is a day you did things "your way". Wouldn't it be fair to at least throw him a bone and do things HIS way once in a while?


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## Chris H. (Jan 27, 2007)

Chopblock,

perhaps you should reword that to speak from your own experience rather than generalize that women (in general) do this... I can see how it could possibly offend a few....


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I've never withheld sex as some sort of punishment or game-playing but I definitely need to feel loved and secure to be in the mood so I guess "my way" would be to feel that way all the time and everything would be right with the world  Speaking for myself, I would have a hard time telling my husband that I would feel more loved if he kissed me/hugged me throughout the day and would feel more in the mood later if he did those things...I guess I would feel if I had to point out that he needed to act loving towards me I would feel bad that I even had to ask for that, so if it's not naturally there, I don't think it could be fixed by him. Fortunately, that's not my situation at all, but if it were, it would be difficult for me to be in the mood. I don't think either person would be happy with alternating withholding sex and courtesy sex...maybe a quick fix but unless the underlying issues are addressed I don't see that working long-term.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I generalized because this is a common issue on this forum, and many others. Its one I suffer from, and have tried to help countless others suffering from. While it may not apply to "all" women as few things are all or nothing, it is by no means small or insignificant.

What I've heard so far is very common, and points to other very usual behaviors. For example the "if I have to tell him to be loving, then it defeats the purpose" is a common relationship buster. It falls into the "people aren't mindreaders" category.

While I can understand how having to say "I wish you'd be more loving and kiss me sometimes during the day" 'cheapens' the experience because you wonder if he's doing it because he wants to or because you told him, I ALSO see how there's no smoke, therefore no fire.

Maybe he doesn't KNOW he isn't doing it enough. Men and women are wired differently. For me, I'd much rather SAY something and have it be absolutely known, then assume my partner is being malicious and stew silently. But again: that is a man's solution, to actively solve a problem.

I just get so saddened because of the stubbornness and lack of communication -- especially when the women say that they want sex but don't take action. Your man is hurting and he is confused. He misses the intimacy and he feels punished. He feels helpless when he has no idea WHY he is being punished.

Then he TRIES to solve the problem. He thinks "if I do <thing> she'll be happy" and when those things just dont' work, he gets even more frustrated. Now he feels like "I've done A, B, C, and she is still mad.... why bother".

I've often said that the time to fear is when the man stops asking. At least if he's asking for sex, he's still interested. When he shuts up, it means he has given up and is planning on seeking it elsewhere.

So swedish is saying she needs love to want sex, and many men say they need sex to feel loved. Really, is it so important that he "just does what you want" that you can't drop him a hint?

So instead of cluing him in, you make him wait. He waits and waits and gets more impatient. We hear it here all the time "I feel like all he wants is sex". Well DUH, cuz you've made him wait for months.

I maintain that you KNOW what he wants (sex), but he may not know what you want (help with chores, more emotion, more money, more support...). Since you KNOW what he wants, did it ever occur to you that if you give it to him, maybe you'll get what you want?

In fact... we so OFTEN hear men saying "I've tried being more loving, buying her gifts, helping with the kids, doing more chores, and we STILL aren't having sex". But how often do you hear a woman say "I tried giving him more sex, but it didn't work"?


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## juls (Apr 1, 2008)

I agree with what he has wrote when it is in regards to women who do withhold for control purposes. It is very common and very hurtful to the husbands who have to deal with it....


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I think you wanted the short answer, not one that may actually be helpful...so
"Do you think forcing us to wait makes us want it less?"
NO


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## sweetp101 (Mar 13, 2008)

Maybe some guys would think that witholding sex is being controlling. Did you ever think that maybe their hearts are not in it. My husband and I have been having problems for 9 months now. I would love nothing more than anything to have sex with my husband, but my heart is just not in it. It might make him feel better for the moment, but what about me. When the two minutes are up, what is next? 

Maybe you should just ask what is really going on. Most women will talk if not asked in a rhetorical way.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

Swedish: if you actually read my responses you'd see I am looking for more than the short answer. If you want to play games though, let me ask the follow up question: "if you know withholding won't make them want it less, why are you doing it?"

To those who put more thought into it, thank you. I knew the heart issue would come up, which I recognize is a related problem.

Nobody wants to be forced to "go through the motions". Yes if she "gives in" and has sex with him just to shut him up, he may be satisfied for a little while. He may even put more effort into fixing what HE has done wrong, which may restore the woman's heart into the act. I believe this is the "upwards spiral" that could be one solution to the "downwards spiral" of withholding -> frustration -> withholding -> frustration.

That being said, men aren't as dense as they are made out to be, and can tell when the heart isn't in it. I want to make love to my gf, not just be "placated" (though after 8 months of nothing, being placated would at least be SOMETHING).

Now lets split something here. There is a difference between "I am doing this for you" and "I am going through the motions". I do believe in "I'm doing this for you" there is still some heart in it. While she may not want to have sex (or go to a hockey game, or shoot hoops, or go to hooters) she wants him to be happy. When one goes through the motions, one does so with no heart. One is dead inside.

I can see how going through the motions would make the problem worse -- the emptiness and the feeling of being used.

So the ultimate question is: how do you restore the emotional part to the physical part?

If we revisit some of the cases put forth here we see many degrees. Some could just be a case of mental barriers, or frustration from lack of help/needs not being met. Fix the lack, and the problem fixes? One hopes so.

Sweetp101 touches on this. In your case, sweetp101, I'd love to see your answers to these questions:

1) What do you want? (ie. what would you need from him to restore your heart into it)

2) Do you think that if you gave him sex, he'd, of his own will, fix whatever he is doing wrong?

3) Does he know your heart is not into lovemaking? Does he know WHY your heart isn't in it?

4) What can you do to make him aware of the problem so he can take action.

I believe these are excellent questions to consider that will hopefully start the healing.


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## sweetp101 (Mar 13, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> Sweetp101 touches on this. In your case, sweetp101, I'd love to see your answers to these questions:
> 
> 1) What do you want? (ie. what would you need from him to restore your heart into it)
> 
> ...


Here is my answers:

1. We have talked and he knows what problems exist in our marriage. (We are currently in marriage counseling.

2. No, been there done that. We did it for 12 years. Did not resolve anything.

3. Yes he knows why my heart is not in it.

4. He already knows the problems. He just has to figure out how to fix them.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I am thrilled to hear that you guys have communicated and are in counselling to try and fix the problems. I am also glad to hear that the problems seem to be fixable, and that you are allowing him to try and fix them.

It sounds like you guys already passed the stage that most people stumble at, which is communicating. I am saddened that he didn't fix the problems while you were still giving.

Nonetheless, I wish you guys the best.

I'd also love to hear if you have any tips for communicating. Did you finally break down and say "here's why I'm withholding sex" or something of that nature? Or did it come out of another discussion or him saying "why isn't your heart in it anymore"

I would love nothing more than my gf to either say "here is why we aren't having sex" so that I could make an effort to fix it. Like most guys, i prefer direct vs subtle. I will not catch the parallel between the lack of sex, and the way you were mad 5 weeks ago because CVS was out of mint milanos and you shrieked at me when I didn't change the dog's water as soon as you wanted me to"

I'm also curious about mommy22 who seems not to have gotten to the communication stage yet. You say he could tell the emotion wasn't in it. Did he know why? Did you tell him why? I'd love the answers to the same 4 questions from you.

For a long time I've also been avoiding the possibility that I might just have to say "I can't live like this anymore. If we don't at least TALK about it and TRY to fix it, then I'm outta here" I do believe we can work through our problems, but I need to know what they are before I can try to fix anything.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> Swedish: if you actually read my responses you'd see I am looking for more than the short answer. If you want to play games though, let me ask the follow up question: "if you know withholding won't make them want it less, why are you doing it?"


If you actually read my response you would already know that I don't withhold sex. My husband and I are both fulfilled in that department


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

I did read your response and it brought up the issue I mentioned earlier. To clarify. You said:

"I would have a hard time telling my husband that I would feel more loved if he kissed me/hugged me throughout the day and would feel more in the mood later if he did those things..."

Does that mean that telling your husband what you want cheapens it sooooo much, that you'd rather bottle it up inside? I know you said you "didn't" withhold deliberately, but you did say if you didn't get certain things, then you weren't in the mood. 

So if your husband had no idea what you wanted to be in the mood (or needed a reminder), are you saying you would rather stay silent and both suffer than clue him in and fix the problem? If so, why?


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I don't think I'm the 'average' woman in that sense. I'm very shy and introverted and really struggle to say what I'm thinking/feeling, especially if it's something I feel very emotional about. It's really not 'cheapening' it as much as it would make me feel that the only way to get him to love me is to tell him to...it really stems from my own insecurities (I could go on for pages about the male influences in my life which are most likely the core) but it is what it is. I do have to work hard at saying how I feel, asking for what I want and do so every day. Our marriage is now strong but my husband is like me so for us it is a 2-way street and when he seems distant or having an off day, I always (now) ask what's up and if there's anything I can do. He does the same but we both need to work on it every day. It's too easy for us to bottle things up...just who we are. So, no I can't stand staying silent, it's just really hard for me not to.

Our marriage was in dire straights a year ago for this very reason and once we both took our guards down and opened up to one another, it has been like meeting him all over again, only much better


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## sweetp101 (Mar 13, 2008)

I had been discussing our issues for 12 years. After being depressed for 11 of those twelve years, I finally asked for a separation and stated that it was time for me to move on. This made him realize that I was serious. It took 8 months before we started counseling.

Thats what I meant when saying maybe the woman's heart is not into it. I am not in love with my husband anymore, but I willing to work and try to rekindle the love we once had (If that is possible. Nothing will ever be same.) Having sex is not going to make me fall in love with him. It would only feel like he is raping (maybe the wrong choice of words) me because I will not be into it.

It took 11 years for me to realize that I no longer loved him. He was just a crutch nothing more.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

"It took 11 years for me to realize that I no longer loved him. He was just a crutch nothing more."

Thank you sweetp101. This is actually one of the things that I fear most, and I am trying to fully understand it rather than say "we aren't having sex so she must hate me".

The last thing I want to become is her "big brother". I know she loves me, but the sex isn't there and hasn't been there for a while. I believe a large part of it is an image thing, which she is working on and I will finally know for sure if that is or isn't it.

My fear though is that she loves me, but doesn't desire me anymore but doesn't want to lose the sweet deal she has. I do my best to make her feel special and I really do love her, but superior lifestyle I provide vs what she could afford alone is definitely a factor.

I just don't want to wait another 5 or 6 years of pouring my heart into a relationship only to be told something like "if we stay together, there won't be sex". Even if we had an open marriage deal, I don't want to live like that.

Seems to me though that if my last hope fails, I'm going to have to either live with it, or say "if this doesn't change, we're done".


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

mom, your response came while I was typing.

Let me just say I'm so happy to see a forum that actually has success stories. All the others I've been on NEVER had more than one person say "we fixed it" and in that one case, there was some unique oddity that didn't apply to 99% of other people.

To all, I know its hard to say what you are feeling. I believe a lot of times the "rock bottom" that people refer to is actually the point at which the effort needed to fix the situation becomes more desirable than the consequences of the situation. Up until that point, the cure is worse than the disease, as it were.

I'm so happy for all of you. I really want things to work out with my gf, I love her so much and want to marry her, but I'm feeling trepidation about committing my life to her if we can't fix this problem.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

mommy22 said:


> We actually sat down and had the conversation on each part "What can I do to make this better?" He told me that he would need lots of reassurance to restore his manhood. He wants me to tell him I love him, stoke his arm, hug and kiss him in public. He wants me to outwardly show that I am proud of him and HE'S MY MAN! I, on the other hand, told him that I want him to take time to talk to me, be actively involved with the children, pull his weight around the house and just be my best friend again.


:iagree:
My husband and I had the same conversation & I really think you hit the key to a strong marriage...to really WANT to make your spouse happy, no hidden agenda or in hopes of getting anything in return. Real AGAPE love. When you can't bear to see your other half sad, hurt, angry and you do what you can to turn that around, amazing results follow.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> I believe a large part of it is an image thing, which she is working on and I will finally know for sure if that is or isn't it.


I know of many women where this is the case, and it really has nothing to do with their other half. Do you think she might suffer from depression? Sometimes the two go hand and hand and counseling may help her.



Chopblock said:


> I believe a lot of times the "rock bottom" that people refer to is actually the point at which the effort needed to fix the situation becomes more desirable than the consequences of the situation.


Definitely true in my case. And I'm sure most wish they would have put in the effort sooner than later...I sure wish I knew of these forums much sooner.


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't think it's an issue that women don't know that withholding sex is pretty much the worst thing you can do to a man, it's that they do know the affect it has on us and simply don't care or use it to their advantage. 
I think most women don't see that they will only be cheated on eventually because they are so self absorbed by the power they think they have. The pattern I've noticed with my Wife is she will push me away regardless of what I do or don't do but blame the not having sex on me not doing things. This has made me stop trying already and I've only been dealing with it for a years and a half. I get it from time to time but I am overly critical and usually don't like it because I waited so long and I'm more pissed than horny. 

I'll say it again, the only answer is PROSTITUTION! Getting it somewhere else is the only way of defusing the situation.
Trying to pander to your Wifes feelings and emotions is a temporary fix that needs to be maintained too much. 

I had an arrangement with a girl I met on a personals site to meet up and mess and then almost like she knew somehow she gave it up that same weekend and started acting all nice and sympathetic for like two weeks after that. I put that other situation on the back burner because I didn't want to cheat until I absolutely have to, a conscience thing I guess, but I will in the future. 
I'm done playing games or jumping through hoops to have sex with my Wife, and in doing so I'm taking that power away from her. I'm sure she will act all surprised and butt hurt when/if she finds out.
*chopblock* said it best when he said;


> did it ever occur to you that if you give it to him, maybe you'll get what you want?


I have been the nicest hubby since she started being nice and caring after having given me sex, like out of no where. WHY?
Because she deserves it right now. WHY? Because she stopped playing games long enough to just do me and started acting nicer/less selfish too.

Unfortunately for her, she just can't not stop bring such a selfish B____ long enough to let me get over my hatred I have towards her because of what she puts me through. 
She already blew it only after a week and a half, tisk, tisk. 

I can't wait to see if she gives it up again right before I get it somewhere else, wouldn't that be creepy.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

See my wife is the opposite, she withholds sex, when a big day is comming up....Becuase she is "building up to the day" By the time the day comes, she thinks I am ready to unleash my rawness on her...which does happen. But I ahve tried to with hold sex from her because I was mad at her...but then I think to myself, who am I really punishing here??? Next thing I know we are in bed. 

My wife's monthly friend was visiting us, but our make out sessions are so hot and wild of flippign around on the bed, she often reaches orgasm without me penetrating her. SHe has certain hot spots on her Neck, back of knees, he back and her chest...I pay extra special attention to these area's to a point where I drive her wild. It's an awful lot of fun! 

Maybe you need to find your Hubby's hot spots, tease him some what, sure real sex only last a few minutes, but you can really build up to it, and really that is the most fun.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

You are lucky GAsoccerman -- even more so that she is still willing to be touched when she is flying the Japanese flag.

carmaenforcer and i think a LOT alike. I am not yet so burned out that I'm going to cheat -- but I wouldn't condemn someone who cheated after exhausting all possible options.

I am trying to keep a line between "meeting her needs" and "pandering to her whims". Its a fine line, but as long as I am on the good side of it, I'm not so upset. There are things I am trying to do a little bit better that I know are important to her, though I'm not sure they are going to make the difference.

For me, the big point will be the image thing. If she overcomes it (she is actively working on it) then things will hopefully be fine. If that doesn't work, then I am out of options besides "deal" or "leave".

Part of the reason I want more communication is because of this sentiment: "she just can't not stop bring such a selfish B____ long enough to let me get over my hatred I have towards her because of what she puts me through." If there are issues that really are so deep they can't be overcome, or mental barriers that are so strong they can't be broken... well I WANT TO KNOW THAT NOW! I do not want to spend the next 2 or 3 years going deeper and deeper only to find out that it was for nothing and I could have left now.

I do agree with the "taking back the power" statement, and this is why I always tell women that they should be afraid when the man STOPS pestering them for sex. Men aren't dumb, and they aren't going to allow themselves to be treated like puppets forever.

So for me, if the image thing doesn't fix the problem, I will try the "ok, lets work as a team to make this better". If that doesn't work, then I don't have a choice anymore.


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## sweetp101 (Mar 13, 2008)

GAsoccerman,
There is no foreplay. For all of the years I've been married I've always felt like a one night stand. He does not do foreplat at all. He is in and out. I had never experienced that with no one else just him. I married for the wrong reasons, now I must find a reason to stay connected.

Carmaenforcer,
You seem very angry. Cheating is not the answer. Believe me that will only lead to other problems.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

"You seem very angry. Cheating is not the answer."

Don't forget though: his wife has already cheated on him by choosing to withhold sex and not work with him on the problem. He is choosing not to be a victim anymore.


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## sweetp101 (Mar 13, 2008)

I know that cheating is not the answer. I have cheated because of my husband withholding communication, sex, attention, etc.... I enjoyed the moment but I still had to face the problem.


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## juls (Apr 1, 2008)

sweetp101 said:


> I know that cheating is not the answer. I have cheated because of my husband withholding communication, sex, attention, etc.... I enjoyed the moment but I still had to face the problem.



Well said...I do understand how the rejection could lead a person to such dramatics. But you are correct it doesn't solve the problem...


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

carma:

If you divorce, what are you looking at in terms of bills, alimony, costs, and so forth? If she doesn't work now, will you end up living on 30% of your take home, in a dingy efficiency, using a lawn chair as a bed?

I know some people say that freedom is worth any price. I think you have to consider the real-world possibilities of your actions. Will you win custody of your child, or will you end up paying child support (ie: free money for her european vacations with her new man while you have to choose between heat and food).


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

CHild support isn't free money it is to help feed and cloth the children since so many parents don't do it on there own without a court order.

draconis


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry to hear that SweetP, I enjoy foreplay tremdously, almost more then real sex, because my wife gets so much out of it. I would not be with her, if she did not enjoy it.

there is a saying, "if your not happy, then go find happiness" staying in a marriage for the wrong reasons, is worse then getting married for the wrong reasons. If it won't work, then divorce and move on.

I agree with Drac, Child support is NOT free money. It is money for YOUR children, yes you are giving it to your EX, but the Money goes to your children Indirectly in some sort of fashion, I could not hold back from giving support to my children, I love them and want what is best for them, even if it means they get european vacations and I live in a trailer. My kids come first ALL THE TIME. But again I am not divorced so I am not bitter.

I know a few "dad's" that rather skip child support then see their children, because they feel they are just giving it to their spouse.

If anything, these fathers should unite and fight to change the laws as they currently are in funding formula's, it was based off when women did not have decent jobs. It's a different world now. My wife makes more money then me, if we were ever to get divorced, it would be a interesting battle $$ wise. But it won't happen.

I wish you all luck i this area. And Chop, she only let's me touch her after day 4 has passed....during the visit. First three I stay away hehe


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

"CHild support isn't free money it is to help feed and cloth the children since so many parents don't do it on there own without a court order."

Wrong. Child support is INTENDED to help feed and clothe the children...

In reality, it seldom plays out that way, especially when the woman gets a new wallet... err boyfriend and suddenly has way more household income than should ever merit bleeding the father dry. I agree that not only are the calculations antiquated and biased, but there is little to no oversight to ensure that 1) the amounts are fair at all, and 2) that the money goes to the child.

Personally, I'd rather there be a much more accountable system in cases where amounts can't be agreed upon. The father should be able to challenge the mother to prove that the money really is going to CS. I realize its expensive to raise a child, but you can tell whether or not that money really is being used for its intended purpose. If junior is wearing worn out shoes while mom and boyfriend are on their 2nd cruise this year, something isn't right.

GA, I think a lot of it is mental, which irritates the hell out ofm e. Gf seems to have erected so many utterly RIDICULOUS mental barriers, and justifies them with that "if thats what I think, then thats what I think" attitude. No matter how many times I compliment or dote on her, when she is in one of those moods, its meaningless. She believes she is unattractive, therefore how can anyone else find her attractive.

I've told her before and asserted the viewpoint that the attitude is often more powerful than the imagery. I've met fabulously gorgeous girls who only see themselves as ugly, and average girls who were confident and happy. Guess which ones were more desirable.


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## carmaenforcer (Mar 7, 2008)

Hi *chopblock*

I live in a state that champions the Unwed Mother and punishes the Dads right off the bat. I got screwed and forced to live on a fraction of my take home (after taxes) and when I made a court date to reevaluate my dyer condition, the judge said, and I quote:
"just get another job", raised my child support and added daycare.
I walked out of that court room completely disillusioned about the concept of fairness, so I don't expect it anymore, I demand it.
On a related note, that same Son (from a previous) is 17 now and I'm still paying daycare....????? I would complain but am scared of the courts because I am starting to try and have a family, again.

Do not kid yourself, the old saying is true 
"It's cheaper to keep her"
Hell, my ex is a meth-head and doesn't work. She told me that I'm her sole income, well my Son's child support is.

I completely agree with you on the consequences thing fortunately for me that I've learned from my Wife the art of how to bold faced lie to you in your face and get away with it. 
It sounds strange but I have actually been able to use this technique in a corporate setting, it's great. It's a bit like politics and involves legalities and burden of proof, if your married (to a woman liar) I'm sure you understand. 
It's funny because she knows it, I bold face have told her what I plan on doing (as a test) and she can't do anything about it, because she does the same thing. 
As I understand it, as long as there is no hard proof your safe and can just walk away from it. 
:scratchhead:

She is still a lot better at it than I am and simply because she's a woman has the potential to hurt me 1000 times wurst than I can ever dream of. I hold my own though and have embarrassed just being a man and letting her deal with it, what ever than means.
Sometimes she tries to call me on something, I'm like "holly isht I'm caught" in my head, but keep my cool. 
BURDEN OF PROOF B____! :rules:
I just plead the 5th (I prefer not to lie if I don't have to) and leave it at that. If she persists I simply bring up her dirt I've been overlooking but keeping notes on, and all is good once more. 

Another scud blown out of the air.

I know a sad way to live but you made do with what you have, survival 101.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

I really don't think this is a gender based issue. It's a dead-beat vs. parents who actually love their children enough to step up and do the right thing vs. take whatever they can from their ex. 

I divorced 9 years ago...have 3 kids...we divided assets equally which meant I kept the house (and higher mortgage) and he got lots of cash...which he put down on a small house, bought a sailboat, 2 jetskis, a new car...cashed in his 401k and redid the house, bought a new tv (even though he took our only one) list goes on...never paid child support...I was paying over 1k a month in daycare. I agreed in court to 1/2 of the state required child support %. He still paid nothing.

he married 2 months after we divorced took on a stepson and had another baby...my eldest will be 18 this month and he feels sorry for his dad...about how I have a big house, etc. and his dad is out of work and struggling (he starts a job and quits because he does all the work while the bosses make all the $) 

My son shows a lot of anger towards me because 'i threw his dad out in the streets...took all his money...' I finally sat my son down and explained how things were divided when we divorced. It's too late...he believes everything that comes out of his dad's mouth and feels sorry for him. Just last week he said his dad is thinking of buying a new boat and write it off as a corporate expense but at the same time is asking if I will pay for all of his college because I can afford it and his dad can't.

I know I could take him to court, but I also know he would feed the kids more lies and make things worse for them, so I've just put up with it. I also feel bad for his wife, who is a really good person and works really hard and I wouldn't want to make things worse for her.

It's flippin ridiculous.


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## pigpen (May 5, 2008)

Chopblock said:


> I don't know if I've ever asked this question explicitly and directly so here goes:
> 
> Women: when you withhold sex from your man (for whatever reason), and the complain that he gets more and more needy, do you really honestly think that making him wait longer is going to make him want sex less?
> 
> ...


Dear Chopblock,
You are asking the wrong questions of the wrong people.
Do you ask HER these questions? 
Are you really prepared for the answers you recieve or are you waiting to hear what you want to hear?

I have a marriage where my husband has no finesse (or did not - its been so long I really dont know now). He was abrupt and when I made suggestions of how to approach me he took every thing I said as NO. I wonder what dynamic is at play in your relationship?
Several months ago I had an interesting discussion with the hubby. Not about sex but the conversation was eye opening to every concievable communication error in our marriage.
He admitted that when I said I needed "help" he assumed I ment that he should do it all. What I really ment was "help".
Since he was imposing all kinds of motive on my comments we could never have a conversation that did not erupt in anger.

So there you have it - the only thing you can do is listen to what she says and observe what she does without trying to second guess her. If she says she does not want sex and you ask why and she says she does not know - she does not know and you cant fix that. You can be supportive. You can suggest she sees a doctor for a physical and you can decide if you can live with the situation. 

The point I am making is you cant figure out people. You can only take what they have to offer in the moment and on the face of it. Minute by minute and day by day. 

Do you romance her? Or do you just insist that she should have sex with you because you are married?
Do you aks her how she likes to be touch or do you assume she should like to be touched in what ever way you touch her because it is all sex?

Do you pout when you dont get it? Demand that she tells you that you are loved and wanted? Just what do YOU do to make her feel comfortable with sex?

I can tell you that nothing is a bigger libido killer than a selfish guy. I hope you are not he.


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## Chopblock (Mar 21, 2008)

Yes I romance her, help around the house (do most of the chores/cooking/cleaning...) tell her I love her, blah blah blah. She has it really good.

Yes I have asked these questions of her over the years, and have given up asking because I won't get an answer. At this point I would rather hear "I don't find you attractive anymore" than "I don't know" so I could at least figure out whether to stay or go.

While I understand that "quid pro quo" can be damaging, I feel that I work hard to meet her needs (and wants) and shortchanged that I feel I am not given the same courtesy. While I do my best not to make the things I do contingent on sex, as her happiness is quite important to me, I feel that since I am putting in all the work of a romantic commitment, that I deserve some of the benefits.

Let me address your good points individually then:

The part about projecting intent onto someone is something we've both been guilty of in the past. The thing is, a lot of it is self-reinforced. I mean, if 4 out of 5 times yield a particular result, its hard not to expect that the 5th time will yield the same result.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying a big part of the healing is to understand what is really being said during some of the interchanges that cause common stress. In your case "asking for help" did not mean "get over here and do this".

That is something I am actively working on, and feel is getting better.

However I must say, I also feel fatigued by hearing the same excuses or lack thereof over and over. "I don't know why" and "I'm not in the mood" is just not acceptable anymore. 8+ months of drought is long enough to get in the mood, or at least figure out why you aren't.

I disagree with "taking the face of it". Quite often I feel I am expected to understand the full subtext and hidden meanings behind cryptic phrases. I would love everything to be straight up, say what you mean, mean what you say, and so forth. Sometimes it is, sometimes its not.

Thank you.


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