# Confilict in discipline after 7yrs how to you get past?



## mentallydrained

I've been on several different threads here and after last nights episode, thought maybe here might be of some help.

H and I are 11yrs difference (him senior) we have a 6yr old, soon to be 7 in few days. He also has 27 yr old from previous marriage. Irrelevant I guess...any how, we have always had a some conflict in her up brining. More on the discipline side of things. He says I'm 'to soft' I baby her and that she has now learned to play me...play us.

Well, looking back when a baby, or 2ish rather, there were times I would get upset at him because when she would have moments of crying I, as the mother, truly believe that I can tell when the cry is for pain or something meaningful, over a 'give me attention' cry. H things otherwise. For me, it all started over potty training. We both work full time and she went to daycare. He was furious that 2 1/2 she still wouldn't go. He would put her on potty and she would cry like no other. If she got up, he would yell at her. I kept saying we cant force her, it will happen...well it did right before her 3rd bday. (just given example I guess of our differences)

Well as years have past, there have been occasions where I would get upset as I feel he would treat her like she was a teenager not a child. She is a very emotional girl, takes things very personal...yes sadly, she gets that from me. She is a perfectionist, if she cannot get it right the first time, she gets mad, upset, sometimes cry...she gets that from dad! He is a graphic artist, painter. Things he works on for others, he does 3 or 4 times till his liking. To point I feel loosing money due to his timehe spends perfecting. When to the blind/unartistry eye, it's amazing work. Not to him...very anal as I call it.

So....at one time, he said to me he wants her to be afraid of him! I told him that's wrong. I grew up being afraid of my dad and when he got very ill and died, I regret some of my childhood. Dad was very'mean' so I thought. We got woopens, with the belt on bare butts if really serious. Never abusive I promise. Just good ol' fashioned spankings...painful sometimes.

H says when he looks at her, he wants her to know he's serious..which yes, some 'looks' should be the final "do as your told look". But fear?? Well, as we go on, her growing, now in 1st grade, theres a lot of him calling her a cry baby, when she is upset, when the play...rough house, he get's a little too rough, I feel. If playing and he covers up under a blanket or something she completely panics...freaks out over 'not being abel to breath" he things it's funny...so he does it more. Then when she freaks to point of massive tears...yes again...says oh you cry baby...always fun til somebody gets hurt. They wrestle, he puts her in these 'choke holds' again...she freaks. He's not doing it like litteral choking her...I think she has a closterphobic thing. Which is a legitamate issue! He finds humor in out or teases her. Tells her to suck it up, toughen up. She's a 6yr old girl for petes sake!

In helping with homework, if can't get it write, when trying to correct/help her, she cries. Teacher tells us the gets to point of tears in school when she helps her. That bothers me! Makes me feel we are bad parents. It deeply hurts me.

Last night for some reason, was last straw for me. She loves to help..always wanting to help us. She was helping with the shake-n-bake chicken. I'm changing clothes from work, she's shakin chicken..and he yells...I told you to be careful your geting it on the floor...her lilttle voice with the 'hear comes a cry' shake...I am daddy I didn't do it on purpose". He sees tears and says quit beign a cry baby over everything..I told you to be careful..pay attention or next time you clean it up. 

So..as we wait for dinner to cook...she is playing with my exercise ball. She goes to toss it up a bit and the plug of the ball, sticks out a bit, it was obviously close to face, when she threw it up, that wentup cheek in eye. She immediately grabbed her eye crying turning to me inpanic. I new right away what happend. H sits there and says "Oh my god not again!" I through daggers at him...and gently say to her, calm down...I know that plug hit you in eye...so I check it, it's red she has scratch under lower lid up to eyebrow. No damage. She calms down.

So getting ready to eat, she is trying to play with dad again..not sure what happend I wasnt' watching but again...3rd or 4th time in the hour I've been home I hear...cry baby...your such a cry baby...she gets up set and in a whiney way says...Quit it! Quit saying that to me! I turn around and give daggers again..then its me know. "What have I done to deserve these looks?" I said quit calling her names! He gets made and so...needless to say we haven't spoke all night. 

This has been on going for 6 yrs. My family over Thanksgiving said they see fear in her eyes every time she looks at him before she would do something. LIke...okay dad I'm getting ready to do this are you gonna yell or get mad? That has really bothered me. It hurts me to think my family sees that. In trying to reason with him, he tells me..You be the disciplinary..and I will sit back and watch her walk all over you bcuz you will regret it all. 

Again...I do not want my child to fear me. Do I want her to understand when Im serious and mean business...yes. Fear? Really? Is that what we should do? Should we make her afraid of us? Am I wrong? She does now 'my look'. She is a 6yr old. She's learning new boundaries...new limits...she's 6! Im so lost. This combined with other issues (not for this post) we are going through just makes me feel insane.


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## unbelievable

Is the 27 year old a boy? I've raised both and there is a difference. All we know about raising kids, we learned from our own parents and from trial and error. He's raised one to adulthood and probably thinks he's got it all figured out. Kids are all different and girls are definitely different from boys. One set of parenting tools won't work on all kids. If I had to guess, I'd suspect he is dealing with your daughter in much the same way as his dad dealt with his crying and probably the same way he dealt with the 27 year old's crying. How's his relationship with the 27 year old, now? Is that "child" now a successful, well-adjusted adult?


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## greeneyeddolphin

I use the word fear because I don't know how else to describe it. I don't want my kids terrified of me, or thinking I would beat them over every little thing, but I do need to know that if I shout "stop!" because they're about to walk out in the street or step on a snake or something, that they will listen, even if it is only because they're afraid I'll put them in time out or whatever. 

What your husband is doing is very different from that, though. He's not trying to be in control as a parent. He's being, in my opinion, verbally and emotionally abusive to her, and quite frankly, I find the chokeholds and such to be verging on, if not actually being, physical abuse. He knows it bothers and upsets her, scares her, and he still insists on doing it. That is not a good thing, no matter how you look at it. 

I will say that at 6, she is more than old enough to understand consequences. Even learning new boundaries and limits, you can't let her get away with stuff. If you do, that sets the pattern for her to continue to get away with stuff. I'm not saying that you do let her walk all over you, but I do wonder, reading what you said, if perhaps you tend to let her get away with stuff because you feel bad for the way her dad treats her. 

You need to stand up for your daughter, and teach her how to stand up for herself. At the same time, you need to make sure that you use consistent discipline to teach her how to behave and what's expected of her, and so she can't walk all over you. If he's told you he's going to let you discipline and he'll just sit back and watch, then do that. Hold him to it. You take over discipline. Call him out on it when he does things that upset her (don't just give him dirty looks, open your mouth and tell him to stop; remove your daughter from the situation), and teach her how to tell him to stop - without tears or whining, so that he then has no excuse to call her a crybaby. Believe me, I'm an emotional girl, too, but I get better results when I calmly or agressively tell someone to stop doing whatever to me than if I cry about it.


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## mentallydrained

UNBELIEVABLE:


> How's his relationship with the 27 year old, now? Is that "child" now a successful, well-adjusted adult?


 Yes, male. They aren't. Divorced when he was 9, he freely gave full custody to mom due to some medical/physical issues he was born with. H felt he was better off with mom. Created many issues. Growing up he liked being with mom, she lived off his SSI, would tell him if he ever left she would kill herself as she couldn't live. She let him do what he wants. No responsiblity, were talk to point of he wouldn't even do simple things like brush teeth every day. When we had him everyother weekend, he would get upset we would make him make his bed, brush his teeth, etc. Simple common sense things at that age. He did horrible in school even flunked, did get his GED however. She never was involved in school work, had another son, in which he (step son) become the 'father figure' of and is still to this day. As he aged, he did tell his dad he reliazed mom treated him and did things she did due to money, but now, it's hindsight and him and H talk but rarely. It's like pulling teeth as they have nothing in common. H regrets it to this day and that is why he swears he's going to be different with our daughter. As for knowing and treating her like he was, well, his dad wasn't around much, too busy womanizing. I think his mom and dad divorced when he was about 15 maybe, not sure. So...guess I'm batting 2 for 2 here... 

ATRUCKERSGIRL: Your use of word "fear" I do understand in that respect completely agree. It does appear to me and family, he antagonizes her. The 'choke hold' I understand can be read as abusive...it is in a playful mannor, HOWEVER, I do agree that if he knows it scares her..it should stop. Things that scare her like that or covering up under blanket not letting her free...I do feel that is wrong. Personally, I can't stand my face being covered either and I panic. I don't mean to paint picture that he is physically abusive. Never has hit her or anything like that. 

Yes, I agree she is definately at age to know consequences and you have made valid piont I honestly haven't thought of. Looking back, I think at times, I have been lacksadaisy by feeling guilty over how dad treats her. Not always, but even some is enough for her to realize she can at times get me to be a push over. Other part that bothers me...I find a lot of times as well, I immediately start getting on her and yelling at her to head off what I THINK her dad is about ready to do or to avoid the fact I know what he will or is going to say. I give dirty looks because in past, I did and have said something with her standing there and OH...that was HUGE mistake. He got so mad at me. Later when she wasn't around he said to me sternly that I better never disrespect his decision in discipline infront of her. Once when they were playing and she farted, (she's figuring out this is fun yet a 'scare' tactic for people to leave her alone)  he held her under blanket...duch oven duch oven and at first she was laughing and okay..then he held and held she started freakin almost crying and I did say "let her out that bothers her and she obviously feel suffocated" he got mad said "do you really think I'd suffocate her, my god we are playing..I can't even play with her without you getting upset" he gets up mad and leaves room. Then..daughter gets upset and because he now won't play. I explained to her I wasn't trying to make daddy mad to not play, I wanted him to let her out of blanket. She, as most kids do then went on like nothing happend, he however, stayed mad rest of night. He says when I do things like that, I give her the okay to 'play the two of us' against each other. 

I guess I'm just over sensitive. I don't know. She had issue with waiting to long to go to bathroom..which she gets after her dad again and he admits it. It got to point she would change herself and hid the clothes because she was so scared of him. He would get so mad at her. Tell her he was going to make her clean out her own undies, etc. When I found her hiding spot I asked her to sit with me. I asked why she did that...she said because she knew she'd get into trouble and it was an accident. I felt horrible! I said to her, as soon as it happens, she needs to let us know. To be honest and say she had an accident and needs help. I told H and he did feel kind of bad..for while. He said he would work on that..and even admited she gets it from him as several times, he's held too long himself!!

I often wonder if all that's going on between us, if we are even good parents together. Apart, when just him and her, it appears, or from what I hear, everything is fine. But, when I'm in room/around...not. That's what he tells me. Again..more guilt and what I feel is my fault for things not being the way he wants in our marriage. Sorry...don't mean to get off track. Just my feelings right now. 

Thanks to you both...definately things to think about.


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## greeneyeddolphin

I should have clarified, I don't mean to argue with him in front of her; it does give the idea that she can pit you two against each other. But you can ask him to step in another room with you, shut the door and discuss it with him. 

I think it is possible, that since you two have other problems, that you each take what you do with your daughter and blow it out of proportion, thus leading to these conflicts. I would consider maybe some counseling with a family therapist who can maybe help you two figure out better ways of handling all this.


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## unbelievable

It's rather harsh, but the best argument to be made against his particular style of child rearing is that it helped produced a child he now has little contact with and you'd rather not have a 27 year old daughter who is screwed up, educationally stunted, and who never comes over. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and your husband's last pudding effort leaves something to be desired. He may want to adjust his recipe.


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## mentallydrained

Thanks to both of you. Unbelievable it's not harsh. I have had that thought for several years. Sad part is he also says same thing, yet continues as he sees nothing wrong in his technique. Mine isn't best either, parenting obviously includes mistakes, I just hate seeing the fear in her eyes and voice during those moments. I guess to me, there is a difference if true fear, and fear of "uh oh...mom or dad means business."

Guess time will tell. Thanks again.


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## Mom6547

emotionalwreck said:


> Again...I do not want my child to fear me. Do I want her to understand when Im serious and mean business...yes. Fear? Really? Is that what we should do? Should we make her afraid of us? Am I wrong? She does now 'my look'. She is a 6yr old. She's learning new boundaries...new limits...she's 6! Im so lost. This combined with other issues (not for this post) we are going through just makes me feel insane.


I do not agree with your husband. I feared my mother. Whom did I go to when I was in REAL trouble? Life threatening trouble? Sure not my Mom would could have helped!

This fear thing I think stems from wanting a kid to BEHAVE and OBEY which I think is a short sighted view of what you want kids to do. I think you want kids to LEARN what behavior is right and why. That does not mean they will agree with our reasoning and limits will never be set. But just being an obeying lemming is a short sighted view of discipline.

"Getting past it" should not be your goal so much as coming to common ground. On such a treacherous issue, I wonder if family counseling is not in order.


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## Mom6547

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Good book.


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## mentallydrained

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I do not agree with your husband. I feared my mother. Whom did I go to when I was in REAL trouble? Life threatening trouble? Sure not my Mom would could have helped!
> 
> This fear thing I think stems from wanting a kid to BEHAVE and OBEY which I think is a short sighted view of what you want kids to do. I think you want kids to LEARN what behavior is right and why. That does not mean they will agree with our reasoning and limits will never be set. But just being an obeying lemming is a short sighted view of discipline.
> 
> "Getting past it" should not be your goal so much as coming to common ground. On such a treacherous issue, I wonder if family counseling is not in order.


Yes, didn't think of it that way but correct, we need to teach so they can LEARN proper behavior and why. I know it's normal, but right now I feel like a failure at mother hood. Just so many things run through my mind and H often reminds me "this is why I didn't want kids" then in next breath "I wouldn't trade her for the world". Funny...this thing we call Life and Life lessons how complicated it can be...or how we (I) make it I guess.

Actually, counseling is not an option for H. He doesn't believe in paying someone to tell you how to feel or what to do. At least that's how he views it. We have gone on 3 seperate occassions for 3 differnt things through out our 18yrs together and every one of them, for him, was a waste of his money and time as they didn't tell him anything AND he says its BS they go way back into your child hood and 'acuse' your parents or upbringing on things that are an issue at hand! I don't even mention it anymore. He is trying to find his peace in church. Which sadly, I laugh at that too as less than 48hrs of one of the incidents recently that he was antagonizing and calling her a cry baby...he had just said to me "Church makes me feel good and I am using that to make myself a better dad to her and not be so hard in that I hurt her feelings". Then...off he goes again.

Thank you for link to book. I'm gonna have to look that up and review it.


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## major misfit

Your husband is a bully. Plain and simple. He has a victim (your daughter) that he can bully easily, and get away with it. She is the only voice you have. She's no match for him. I don't know how you're going to get through to him, since he doesn't see anything wrong with what he's doing now. And this is going WAY beyond just "hurting her feelings". He's destroying her emotionally. 

I'd speak to your pastor. Maybe he can speak to your husband. Maybe he can preach a sermon about raising children. I doubt it would do any good. 

Honestly? I'd leave for the sake and well-being of my child. And I'd be only too happy that he'd likely keep his distance. He is only going to destroy this child from the inside out. For the LIFE of me I don't understand why some parents want their children to fear them. I want my son to respect me, not fear me. I feel so badly for you and your little girl. You're in a tough situation here. Men like this are really hard to get through to. Without intervention, you don't get through to them.


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## turnera

I agree. He's a bully. If my husband treated my daughter that way I would divorce him and try to keep him from being able to have custody. All of her personality you describe stems from his mistreatment.

Get HER to a counselor ASAP, and start setting boundaries on what you will allow him to do to your daughter. It is your job to protect her, even from her father.


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## mentallydrained

Major Misfit & Tunrera: Wow... I never considered him to a bully. I actually felt bad as if I was the one clueless to parenting..or so he has made me feel I guess. I don't mean to paint the picture of physcial abuse my any means, but it does bother me tremendously how at times when they play she freaks out. I mean..we as mother's know when the tears are REAL and with sincere emotion, then a turn on the tear to get attention or may way. At least I beleive that.

You know, my mom has made many comments of the way he disciplines her is wrong, or how he antagonzies. Am I that blind to it? I mean, she (daughter) does go back for more after while and that's when he makes comments like "Oh sure...it's all fun until someone gets hurt". 

Just like my example of her doing the shake-n-bake with chicken...her voice when I heard her say "daddy I didnt' do it on purpse' with that shaky holding back tears...it crushes my heart. I litterally HEAR fear in her voice. And I guess, maybe, I've been feeling that I'm over reacting? But again, I've now had family tell me they see her when she is about to do something look at her dad with the look of fear like "well...i'm gonna do this are you gonna get mad?" People...this is crushing me ontop of me not feeling like the person I was, should, or need to be. I don't want to be know as "mommy is the reason daddy left" My family makes those comments and then next sentence tells me if I divorce him..I will trouble with my daughter. 

He does love her. He loves her affection...her hugs. It's the rest. I've made several comments to him..she is 6, not 16. Oh...that sets him off. 

I agree and my fear she is being destroyed from the inside out. Because I know in my heart...I already am. Not all to his doing, but with hurtful comments. I never thought of leaving or divorcing until he spoke of the word first in 18yrs together all due to me wanting to go out one night with an old friend. I never thought the word, it never crossed my mind. Once he said it on several occasions during conversations/arguments...I swore the next time he did...I'd agree and ask if he wants me to start it. He hasn't mentioned it since. Not since he I told him that I cannot say to him that he is all I need, like he can say to me. 

Thank you ladies. This is all so very informative and things I will definately contemplate and work on. I DO NOT want her growing up an emtional wreck like I have over last few years.


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## turnera

He used the word divorce to CONTROL you. That is what abusers do.

Get this book: Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Lundy Bancroft. I have a feeling you're going to recognize a whole lot of your husband in there.

Also, go to his website: Lundy Bancroft

It's a real eye opener.


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## greeneyeddolphin

I'd just like to point one thing out to you: you keep saying that he doesn't physically abuse her and that you don't mean to paint a picture that he does. But...is it possible this is the picture you paint because it is what happens? How many battered wives have said that their husband didn't abuse them? How many of them admit that he hurts them but he "doesn't mean to"? 

If this many of us see him as abusive, or a bully, or whichever term you'd like to place on it, as painful as it might be, maybe you should consider that we think this because it's true. And when that thought enters your head that says "Well, it's just the way I made it sound", ask yourself WHY you made it sound that way. Did you just write what came to mind? Did you deliberately make things sound worse, or better? Be brutally honest with yourself.

Also wanted to add....that fear you hear in her voice over something really insignificant, like chicken...to me, that's very much a sign of abuse. It's that walking on eggshells, so as not to piss off the person who you know can and will hurt you if you make them mad. 

She's only 6, she might not understand what exactly is going on, but if this continues, I think you need to really consider that she might grow up to think this is the way life should be...living in a home with someone who will "punish" you over something insignificant.


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## major misfit

Ah, but you see...he IS physically abusing her. Wrapping her up in that blanket like that and the choke holds (even if he's not squeezing) is ABUSE. She is scared, and she is frightened. Of her own FATHER. Why aren't you trusting your instinct as a mother? Why are you questioning yourself? You ARE NOT overreacting. TRUST YOUR GUT WHEN IT COMES TO YOUR CHILD. 

His comment about it being fun until someone gets hurt...it's only fun when BOTH are enjoying themselves. Your daughter is not having fun. HE IS. He's enjoying it, b/c he's an abuser and that's how they get their kicks. He's able to feel powerful. Because, as you'll read in Lundy Bancroft's book...it's ALL about power and control. Nothing more, nothing less. He has the power and control over a little 6yo girl. And she's helpless to stop him. 

Please believe me when I say that I would leave this man. I'm older now, I've lived through a lot. I've raised 3 kids, and one to go. I've learned so many hard lessons in my life. And at this point in my life, having learned the lessons I have, I would RUN from this man and NOT look back. I wouldn't listen to him promise to change (once I left) and I wouldn't believe a word he said. Abusers are master manipulators. Please read the book. 

In the meantime..just google the "power and control wheel". There are several as it pertains to specific relationships (as in same sex r-ships) and locate the one that pertains to heterosexual couples. See if you recognize anything there. Please understand what you're dealing with. And please protect your daughter. You both can go forward and have a peaceful, stress free life. You both can be happy.


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## lime

That is a terrible way to treat another human being--let alone a child! Even if your husband refuses counseling, I would STRONGLY suggest that you place your daughter in some form of counseling that will help her cope with his irrational behavior.

This marriage does not sound healthy for you or for your child.


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## mentallydrained

*Re: UPDATE Confilict in discipline after 7yrs how to you get past?*

Well...I'm here again mainly to talk (type). The day of her Bday party..big 7! Things were going well. She was just so excited and if I didn't know better I would have thought she was on a sugar high the way she was acting. 30 minutes til friends arrive, she's reading a book with her dad. Comes to a word she doesn't know. He tells her to sound it out...she says she can't, he says yes you can...she starts to get the crying voice...I can't I don't know that word...he says Sound it out...she starts to cry. He tells her crying is not going to help nor will it make him giver her the answer. At this point..the conversation is a rational, calm one. She finaly sounds it out after a while he praises her tells her 'see you knew how' told her to give him a big hug and now she's fine. So, she decides still have time..I'll do my homework paper.

It's math. One of the questions she was confused on. He reads to her a few times and each time she says I don't understand. He responds with yes you do. There were 3 word problems each resulting in a final number. The last question was 'which one is more' The answer was 8 out of the other two which was 3 and 5. She starts to get upset, again, and I say to her..you do not need to do this now. Lets get ready for your friends, this can be done tomorrow. She starts to cry as she tells me "I don't understan". At this point, H says go ahead and cry you do your best when you cry you'll figure it out. She gets up set more. I try to get her to calmn down, to not worry about it. He then says...well here, lets take your picture so your friends can see how your acting and grabs camera. She starts yelling "stop it, stop it daddy...and he follows her around the room. She yells to the top of her lungs STOP IT...a yell that I honestly was surprised she did. I pipe up and said "please stop it". He puts the camera down, smacks his hands together and tells her to get upstairs. I have no idea of the though process..but by his look and demenor I immediatly thought he was going to spank her. I stepped in and I said, no you won't. Leave her alone.

He yells I'm done! You go to this party, you take them I'm done. Stomps to bedroom, slams stuff around, poor daugther crying..I go into bedroom and calmly (can't believe I was) tell him to calmn down, don't do this, it's her birthday, he is red....yelling.."look what she does to us...I'm sick of it, I'm sick of this....go give the answer like you always do...I'm tired of it....I tell him this is NOT her fault, I was not giving her the answer I was trying to get her to not do the work as it is not important right now..he stomps around house in confusion as he knows I cannot drive the amount of girls coming in one car.

As he was yelling at me...the anger in his eyes and face were the first ever that I honestly thought he may be just mad enough to want to possible hit me. Never has, I swear. But this time...I thought it could happen. Yet, I wasn't scared and I remained calm. I walk away and go to my DD, to calm her down. He is in another part of house. After 15 min or so, he comes out...says to DD, I owe you an apology. What I did was wrong how I acted was wrong and what I said was wrong. My getting mad is not your fault. It's mine and daddy needs to work on being more patient. Then turns to me and says "I owe you apology too". I responded with thanks...but it's done. 

I go to DD hug her, ask her if she is alright (she walked into diff room). She says yes and hugs me. So...girls show up. She seems okay and happy again. On way to party...it was like nothing ever happend. And she treated him like nothing happend. Me...I was cold...to him. Yet, if my DD forgives that easily, why can't I? The entire day...I honestly kept thinking...I need out. I was feeling comfortable in saying...we need to seperate. But as day went on...I seen her hugging and playing with dad again...I started second guessing again. 

That evening things were good. No one mentioned a word of the incident. We went to bed like nothing happend, other than he did say to me again...I'm so very sorry and I hope I didn't ruin everything. All I could say is "just stop". I did tell him during our blow up, "dont' you see what you are emotionally doing to her? You are emotionally wrecking her by these things" He never responded.

Sunday...he wants to go to church. He tells me he is going to try to start acting better, being a better person (the church things started 4weeks ago). He wants to use church instead of counseling. He ask DD if she wants to go. She looks at me and says "mommy I don't want to...my back hurts" (she was very sore from party of rollerskating and I witnessed some very hard falls) Nite before H rubbed her back as she was very stiff and sore. I told her that's fine we don't have to. To back up briefly, H said he was starting church for himself. If I didn't want to go that was fine. Guess that didn't include DD as when she said she didn't want to go and said due to back..he says "well if your back is to sore to go to church, you shouldn't go to grandma's either" (we were going there to celebrate bday with family). Then says underbreath, just my thinking but I'm probably wrong again.

So what do I do..like always...I say, "if mommy goes will you go and we sit together?" she says yes. I find myself trying to "smooth things over" or divert to way HE wont' be how he is. Why?? I grew up in church and there were some negative situations that turned me off to it as I was older. It's not that I never want to go, but I guess from my experiences, I dont' want to force DD as I feel since I got to point I was forced...I now somewhat resent being forced again as an adult. Am I wrong to force our DD?

On sunday night, he's fine...all affectionate, wanting to mess around. And again...I'm doing the 'fake it' to keep peace...keep everyone ELSE happy due to my guilt of what has been instilled in me that I will potentially "ruin" lives. So...I'm the adult...I'll suck it up and ruin and be unhappy with myown. Not trying to be woe is me but after this situation...and on her bday....I have MORE resentment. It's building and right now, as I sit here today typing...I feel like I'm just waiting...waiting for the right time to say it. It's in me...the anger in his eyes this time was enough for me to not want to continue. BUT, by faking it...making him 'feel' I'm okay with it...so wrong! I'm lost. Finacially not sure how either will make it. In paper the people who bought our old house (his house) they are divorced now. My 1st thought...Hmmm....wonder if house for sale? Maybe he can get it back cheap enough? ....in having that thought...makes me feel like I know in my heart what needs done...why can't I follow through? Why still guilt? 

Thanks for time again here. Since cannot talk outloud, it helps to get my thoughts out some how.


----------



## major misfit

I sure hope you're getting knowledge about living with an abuser. And you can make that choice for yourself...your daughter can't. This "man" RUINED her birthday. She might have recovered, but the memories can be lifelong. It's odd the things that stick in children's minds. You're going to give her a lifetime of memories if you stay with this person. And they won't all be good ones.

Even children who are being horribly physically abused by a parent LOVE that parent. That doesn't mean that it's a safe place to be. There are worse things than being a single parent. There are worse things than struggling financially. 

Church isn't going to fix this man. Nothing short of intensive therapy with a qualified professional will. And even that is a crap shoot. Please do all the reading you can about living with an abuser. Find a message board of other people who are in the same situation you are. Get all the information you can. You WILL eventually go. Already the resentment is building...it's just a matter of time. Knowledge is power.


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## turnera

ew, he is ABUSIVE. 

You are BOTH learning to cowtow to an abuser. 

"oh, it's ok, you can scream at me til I'm scared you're going to hurt me...as long as you apologize afterward."

PLEASE don't teach your daughter that this is acceptable, that HER feelings have to be tied into keeping daddy from getting mad.

Do you realize what you are teaching her by accepting this?

You are teaching her that the only type of man she can marry is an ABUSER.

Please get the book _Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men_ by Bancroft, and read it.

PLEASE. For your daughter's sake, if not your own. You owe her that much.


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## turnera

*Re: UPDATE Confilict in discipline after 7yrs how to you get past?*



emotionalwreck said:


> Since cannot talk outloud, it helps to get my thoughts out some how.


Why can't you? Because he will get mad?


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## turnera

Witnessing domestic and dating violence can have a huge impact on children, both physically and psychologically. Also, they may grow up with the impression that domestic violence is normal or acceptable within relationships – leading them to follow the same cycle of abuse that they witnessed in their parents’ relationship. If you are involved in an abusive relationship, it’s important to get help, for you and your children.

What If I Have a Child With My Abusive Partner? | thesafespace.org


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## turnera

Sticks and stones can break your bones but words can scar you forever. While some forms of verbal abuse are easy to recognize, others are more subtle. It isn't always easy to recognize the signs of an abusive relationship, but knowing the different masks that verbal abuse wears can help.

1. Withholding is one of the most subtle forms of emotional and verbal abuse. A withholder avoids discussing his thoughts, feelings, opinions and other parts of his life with a partner. The partner may feel lonely and rebuffed without understanding why.

2. Trivializing is a way for abusers to gain superiority. By trivializing their partners' accomplishment, abusers belittle their partners in a way that leaves the partner feeling that somehow it was her own failure of communication rather than a deliberate act.

3. Discounting a partner's reality is another way that abusers belittle partners. An example of discounting is the partner who responds to "I'm cold" with "No, you're not. It's 70 degrees in here."

4. "Jokes" that belittle or make fun of a partner are another subtle form of aggression. This includes "funny" insults, telling embarrassing stories or any other way of making a partner the butt of a joke. If anyone protests, the abuser passes it off as "just a joke. Where's your sense of humor?"

5. Criticizing and nitpicking is designed to make the partner feel as if he or she can't ever do anything right. Even "compliments" are backhanded, as in "Well, at least you didn't use too much salt this time."

6. Accusations are potent ammunition for verbal abusers. When the abuser puts his partner on the defensive by making accusations, he holds the upper hand in the conversation and relationship.

7. Diversion allows the abuser to shift the subject away from any conversation and turn it into an argument. When an abuser responds to "Are there any cookies left?" with "Are you saying I eat too much?" she is diverting the conversation.

8. Name calling is one of the most overt symptoms of a verbally abusive relationship. Affectionate pet names are one thing, but hurtful names like "Tugboat Annie" or "Hey, dummy" are always verbally abusive.

9. Undermining is a way of detracting a partner from a goal or activity. A verbally abusive partner may respond to their partner talking about a new diet with "Why bother starting when you know you'll just cheat anyway?"

10. Ordering a partner to do things is often a sign of an abusive relationship. In equal relationships, a partner says, "Would you get me a glass of water?" rather than "Bring me a glass of water."

11. Threatening is another verbally abusive behavior that is designed to control a partner. The threats may be explicit, as in "If you don't do this, I'll leave you" or implied, as in "There are a lot of other women out there, you know."

Verbal abuse comes in many different forms, times and places, but the worse part of abuse is when people are abused by those who claim to love them. Don't encourage abusive behavior in your relationship, because if do, you could become a victim of something more serious than abuse.

http://ezinearticles.com/?11-Signs-of-Verbally-Abusive-Relationship&id=2980171


----------



## mentallydrained

major misfit said:


> I sure hope you're getting knowledge about living with an abuser. And you can make that choice for yourself...your daughter can't. This "man" RUINED her birthday. She might have recovered, but the memories can be lifelong. It's odd the things that stick in children's minds. You're going to give her a lifetime of memories if you stay with this person. And they won't all be good ones.
> 
> Even children who are being horribly physically abused by a parent LOVE that parent. That doesn't mean that it's a safe place to be. There are worse things than being a single parent. There are worse things than struggling financially.
> 
> Church isn't going to fix this man. Nothing short of intensive therapy with a qualified professional will. And even that is a crap shoot. Please do all the reading you can about living with an abuser. Find a message board of other people who are in the same situation you are. Get all the information you can. You WILL eventually go. Already the resentment is building...it's just a matter of time. Knowledge is power.


Yes, that is exactly what I said...I'm sure she will remember this for a long, long time. I know I will. He kept asking me what he can do, how can he make it better...I actual told him I don't know anymore as my focus is me and DD. I know I myself have started medication for depression. I'm into my second month and I do believe it has help me be more calm, not as edgy in stressful situations (obviously as calm as I remained Sat!) He still says he doesn't need meds...that if I can get back to who I use to be...he feels he will be better. That my distance to him and my lack sexual contact makes him feel crazy. I told him but when I do feel sexual...I see the next day or even same day...his whole persona wreaks of "everything is good...fine...looking up!" It's not. Not now at least for me. I too said church cannot fix this. He feels indifferent. He feels if we go faithfully as a family...it will change in time. Again...doing what he feel is best and needed to make it better for him. Yes, I'm building much resentment and more now then ever after seeing his true capabilities. Yes...I'm educating myself real quick like. Trying...


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## mentallydrained

turnera said:


> Sticks and stones can break your bones but words can scar you forever. While some forms of verbal abuse are easy to recognize, others are more subtle. It isn't always easy to recognize the signs of an abusive relationship, but knowing the different masks that verbal abuse wears can help.
> 
> 1. Withholding is one of the most subtle forms of emotional and verbal abuse. A withholder avoids discussing his thoughts, feelings, opinions and other parts of his life with a partner. The partner may feel lonely and rebuffed without understanding why.
> 
> 2. Trivializing is a way for abusers to gain superiority. By trivializing their partners' accomplishment, abusers belittle their partners in a way that leaves the partner feeling that somehow it was her own failure of communication rather than a deliberate act.
> 
> 3. Discounting a partner's reality is another way that abusers belittle partners. An example of discounting is the partner who responds to "I'm cold" with "No, you're not. It's 70 degrees in here."
> 
> 4. "Jokes" that belittle or make fun of a partner are another subtle form of aggression. This includes "funny" insults, telling embarrassing stories or any other way of making a partner the butt of a joke. If anyone protests, the abuser passes it off as "just a joke. Where's your sense of humor?"
> 
> 5. Criticizing and nitpicking is designed to make the partner feel as if he or she can't ever do anything right. Even "compliments" are backhanded, as in "Well, at least you didn't use too much salt this time."
> 
> 6. Accusations are potent ammunition for verbal abusers. When the abuser puts his partner on the defensive by making accusations, he holds the upper hand in the conversation and relationship.
> 
> 7. Diversion allows the abuser to shift the subject away from any conversation and turn it into an argument. When an abuser responds to "Are there any cookies left?" with "Are you saying I eat too much?" she is diverting the conversation.
> 
> 8. Name calling is one of the most overt symptoms of a verbally abusive relationship. Affectionate pet names are one thing, but hurtful names like "Tugboat Annie" or "Hey, dummy" are always verbally abusive.
> 
> 9. Undermining is a way of detracting a partner from a goal or activity. A verbally abusive partner may respond to their partner talking about a new diet with "Why bother starting when you know you'll just cheat anyway?"
> 
> 10. Ordering a partner to do things is often a sign of an abusive relationship. In equal relationships, a partner says, "Would you get me a glass of water?" rather than "Bring me a glass of water."
> 
> 11. Threatening is another verbally abusive behavior that is designed to control a partner. The threats may be explicit, as in "If you don't do this, I'll leave you" or implied, as in "There are a lot of other women out there, you know."
> 
> Verbal abuse comes in many different forms, times and places, but the worse part of abuse is when people are abused by those who claim to love them. Don't encourage abusive behavior in your relationship, because if do, you could become a victim of something more serious than abuse.
> 
> http://ezinearticles.com/?11-Signs-of-Verbally-Abusive-Relationship&id=2980171



Turnera: Your post have struck me so hard. I don't mean in a bad way...I mean that all the above...is SO dead on with what I see now that I'm living! I never until recently thought for one moment I (we) were living in an abusive situation.... ever! I guess blindly, socially, when I hear the word "abuse" immediately I think physical. It makes me so very sad and guilty knowing I've allowed this to start...happen...and continue. During the entire sermon Sunday...I didn't listen to one word. All I did was look at my daughter, with my mind circling in so many ways of "how did I become this parent? Where and why did I lose my confidence, my self worth? I have shown my dd how to be passive within 1 years time. In K5, we were told she stands up for herself. Not a bully, but when someone does something to her she doesn't like, she lets them know and says it in a meaningful stern way. At first I said to the teacher.."Oh my gosh she's a bully" she said no, she needs to stand up so she doesn't GET bullied. No look at her. I'm getting the book and doing much research. She told me today, she is afraid of daddy. My heart is so very broken right now. I feel aweful, a failure and so much guilt of letting this happen. 

Thank you so very much for all your wisdom, words, links. You have no idea how much I need this and appreciate it!


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## turnera

Honey, knowledge is power. The more you learn, the more you can put the situation on the right track.

Just know, however, that people such as your husband very often CANNOT fix themselves without serious, long-term (years) intense therapy, to get at the root of WHY they try to control others. (Usually it's out of a sense of inferiority, something VERY hard to fix)

You may end up having to leave him, just to protect your daughter.

My DD20, usually VERY outspoken, smart, opinionated, met this guy in high school and they started dating. She turned down nearly every guy who wanted to go out with her, because she had really high standards - she didn't NEED a boyfriend, you know? 

Within ONE MONTH, I overheard her on the phone with him. She was crying, and begging him not to be mad at her! MY daughter!

That is how subversive verbal abuse is. It is OH SO SUBTLE that you (the victim) almost never recognize it's happening to you...until you have given up your former self, just to avoid all the little jabs and stinging words.

So don't blame yourself. I would never blame my daughter for falling under this jerk's spell - she was too smart, beautiful, and confident. But it is one little 'give in' at a time. 

That's what they do, part of their subconscious (sometimes conscious) game - find the little things they can do to you to get you to 'give in' or back down. Once they get you to back down on one thing, they look for another. And another. 

"Oh, he didn't mean it; just had a bad day. I won't ask him to apologize." Until it happens again; and this time, you question yourself, what YOU did; and the NEXT time, you just go ahead and BLAME yourself. But it's never his fault. He makes sure of that.

Good luck.


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## mentallydrained

turnera said:


> Honey, knowledge is power. The more you learn, the more you can put the situation on the right track.
> 
> Just know, however, that people such as your husband very often CANNOT fix themselves without serious, long-term (years) intense therapy, to get at the root of WHY they try to control others. (Usually it's out of a sense of inferiority, something VERY hard to fix)
> 
> You may end up having to leave him, just to protect your daughter.
> 
> My DD20, usually VERY outspoken, smart, opinionated, met this guy in high school and they started dating. She turned down nearly every guy who wanted to go out with her, because she had really high standards - she didn't NEED a boyfriend, you know?
> 
> Within ONE MONTH, I overheard her on the phone with him. She was crying, and begging him not to be mad at her! MY daughter!
> 
> That is how subversive verbal abuse is. It is OH SO SUBTLE that you (the victim) almost never recognize it's happening to you...until you have given up your former self, just to avoid all the little jabs and stinging words.
> 
> So don't blame yourself. I would never blame my daughter for falling under this jerk's spell - she was too smart, beautiful, and confident. But it is one little 'give in' at a time.
> 
> That's what they do, part of their subconscious (sometimes conscious) game - find the little things they can do to you to get you to 'give in' or back down. Once they get you to back down on one thing, they look for another. And another.
> 
> "Oh, he didn't mean it; just had a bad day. I won't ask him to apologize." Until it happens again; and this time, you question yourself, what YOU did; and the NEXT time, you just go ahead and BLAME yourself. But it's never his fault. He makes sure of that.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks for sharing. It helps me see a little clearer. Not sure if I should have done this or not, but stayed home with DD as she's sick and talking about her Bday asking if had fun etc. She was not overly excited like normal. I then ask if I could ask her a questions..she nodded, and I bluntly ask "are you afraid of daddy" she bursted into tears, held her blanky up to her face sobbing shaking her head yes...then burried her head into me and then said the word yes.

That emotoinal reaction...and the look of her face and fear in her that is embedded in my mind of him on her bday yelling at him to stop...those two things are crushing me tremendously. It's definately a controlling/manipulitive behavior that her and I can no longer handle.

Thanks again.


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## turnera

There are TONS of places to go to for help in leaving an abusive situation. Google it in your city: 'domestic abuse' and 'help.'


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## major misfit

Ordinarily I wouldn't advocate to leave a spouse...but PLEASE leave this man. PLEASE. I know you're scared. I KNOW the things that are going through your mind. I know, b/c I was there. Trust me..there is nothing out there as bad as you're imagining. It's the FEAR that keeps you trapped. You have ONE child..you CAN make a future for you and your daughter. 

Don't take my word for anything. Please call 800.799.SAFE. The national domestic violence hotline. You do NOT have to be being beaten to call this number. In every phone book is a listing of crisis numbers. You might be able to find a woman's shelter near you. If you don't find one listed, the non-emergency number of the police dept. can help you with that. If I wasn't so afraid for your and your daughter's futures, I wouldn't post that. I'd just let it go, and hope that you find your answer. 

I understand you don't know me from Adam. Can I tell you...I'm not one to overreact..to get hysterical...to start jumping up and down and getting all excited about a situation. Your post has me concerned so much for you and your daughter. I can't stress enough how these "men" act and behave. IF you were to leave him, he's going to make all kinds of promises to change. (they almost always do) Please don't believe it. Unless/until a qualified professional assures you that he's done the hard work for change, and he has dealt successfully with his issues...he won't change. You'll just be going back for more of the same. 

If you're up to it..some more reading...

National Domestic Violence Hotline


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## mentallydrained

After much anguish, resentment, and guilt that I have brough on myself, our latest conversation which did remain a calm one, I told him I felt it in my best interests to that we part ways. I cannot believe everything that has been said here...he has said, promised, advised, etc. etc.

I am completely dumb founded at how this has all panned out. Mabye becuase deep down I didn't want to believe this man whom at one time I did truly adore, worship, love was a manipulator and emotional abuser. I even told him I felt through his comments and statements he is controlling and manipulating. And yes...he responded with no he is not, and that it is my doing and my actions towards him, it is _*'this'*_ environment that I have created that makes him this way. Over the weekend it went from him going to AZ with his son to visit mom over 2 weeks of Christmas, to him moving out searching for an apartment all day Sunday, to then meeting with his pastor, (of 4 weeks) for intervention/counseling of what to do. 

He came home from his little talk with Pastor a completely calm, changed, very remorseful man. Telling me this pastor is our key. He made more sense to him in 2hours then any of the counselor I or he has gone to. Said he did make some harsh comments to him, admiting to him some of the things he has self diagnosised is dead on and true about himself. He then said the pastor told him the latest incident between him and our daughter (on day of her bday) was a mistake but those situations happen and we use those to learn from. I guess since he has owned the situation and apologized for it, explained to our daughter it was wrong that is okay and we need to use it as a stepping stone in parenting and move on. My gut tells me their was no explantion of the FEAR my daughter had and the RAGE he had! 

I was feeling so good about myself in being upfront on how he has made me feel, what I see, and that I do not feel my happiness for self is here. He brought up how due to my family being so close nit etc., that is partly why he decided to marry me as it was totally opposite of what he grew up with and use to. That due to my family values and upbringing, I would be his happily ever after due to now divorce. I did say my dissapointment is one of my many guilts in feeling this way. However, my family, has said they will support me no matter what. He then brings up daughter. That I am making huge mistake on her behalf. He is a product of divorce at age 10, his son is as well, (although he's 28 now and a very bright young man). I told him she deserves a mom who is happy, entergetic, loving her days, living in the moments. I did say she deserved that from her dad as well. He agreed and said us being apart will not give her that. She will have problems, struggle, etc. 

I said if it wasn't for her, this wouldnt' be so difficult. He said he agreed, however if it wasn't for her he would've been gone long time ago. He wouldn't have put up with my "change" for this long. Then said...no...YOU would have been gone. As in, he kicking me out as he owned the house we lived in prior to 2 years ago and this all started when we moved. Or at least it was 'revealed' when we moved. IF I was smart, I would have said "Oh, does the bible say it's okay to divorce when NO kids are involved?" Because he just told me the bible says we need to work through this for our child. Although I hate the emotional state he has put her in, I struggle with the final outcome. He started to get mad, but stopped himself. And repeated what the pastor said. That the times past, cannot be dwelled on. As long as he is owning his wrong doing, makeing sure our daughter understands he is trying to correct it all, I view he thinks it's all okay. I brought up how this has been going on way back to potty training. He did finally let loose and say...You have to get past all this **** or we will never make this a better marraige. 

I said I'm at a no return point and I'm very sorry that hurts you. Last thing in the world I want to do is hurt anyone. All his comments made me feel like a horrible person. I told my mom after he kept saying all this scripture stuff to me from this pastor I feel like if I follow through I'm going to hell! 

Why is doing what is right for ones self, so damn difficult? Why do I have to be an emotional caring female?! He wants me to meet with his pastor he says just once. Mom says I should and explain my side, the fears in daughter, the guilt, etc. Thing is...I don't want the bibel thrown at me! The guilt of commitment. My daughter even made a comment Sunday when her and I were putting up the tree..."daddy went to talk to the pastor? Me..yes. Her...why? Me...because he is upset with mommy he needs someone to talk to. Sometimes mommies and daddies say things that upset one another and sometimes mommies and daddies need other people to talk to so that is what he is doing. Her...Oh...so..are you breaking up? Me...what do you mean? Her...you know....divorce? Me...we shouldn't be talking about this. Right now, mommie and daddie are not breaking up. Her...okay and off she goes onto someting else.

Is this a sign for me? Even if he does get help, I truly do not feel this is the right thing. I don't want to worry about his 'set offs' or what I do to set him off rather. Then I worry since he blames his actions on me, we seperate divorce, since he is so depressed and all, what when him and daughter are alone, he yells and gets mad, losing patience, and I'm not there to make her feel safe! All becuase he is thinking of me, not liking us apart, me being happy and takes it out on her like he has been! 

I know what the Bible says about marriage and commitment and so on, but even pastors get divorced, even the strongest of Christians or strongest of faiths may get or be divorced. Thousands of children around are from divorced parents and majority of children I"m sure have grown up to be Doctors, Lawyers, etc. 

Will I have my moments of missing companionship...sure. Moments of needed that extra person to help me so I don't get into a slump of frusteration doing it all on my own...sure. I'm lost more now then before. He is doing all the above....all that was said....how did I not see this way back? How could I have allowed it to get this far and to this point of now what I feel is distruction of lives? How?!


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## turnera

First, good for you for telling him the truth. That was very brave. 

Second, you need to get educated. I'm not going to diagnose him, as I'm not there nor am I a professional. But I've helped lots of women in your situation learn to stand up for themselves, to finally learn to be HEARD and to be an EQUAL.

Learning more about emotional abuse will help you understand each and every time he tries to manipulate you into doing what he wants. It will help you STOP FEELING GUILTY for protecting yourself and your daughter. Just because he doesn't hit you, it doesn't mean what he is doing is ok.

You DESERVE to be in a marriage where you feel treasured, loved, respected, and worshiped. Instead, he blames this on YOU and states he would have left YOU because of what you have done...uh, NO!

Here is what I would do. I would go back to him and say:

"We are separating. I am not divorcing you. I am giving you a chance to find your good therapist and start going and learning about what you have done to us. At the end of 2011, we will reassess our relationship, if you're still around, and I will then decide if I believe that you have indeed become the loving, selfless man I thought I married, and we should get back together. If you truly love me, you will give this a year of your life, so that you can learn and grow and become a better person. If you can't handle that, then I guess we know how our marriage really stands, don't we?"


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## turnera

emotionalwreck said:


> After much anguish, resentment, and guilt that I have brough on myself, our latest conversation which did remain a calm one, I told him I felt it in my best interests to that we part ways. I cannot believe everything that has been said here...he has said, promised, advised, etc. etc.
> 
> I am completely dumb founded at how this has all panned out. Mabye becuase deep down I didn't want to believe this man whom at one time I did truly adore, worship, love was a manipulator and emotional abuser. I even told him I felt through his comments and statements he is controlling and manipulating. And yes...*he responded with no he is not *{refusing to take blame}, and that *it is my doing and my actions towards him, it is 'this' environment that I have created that makes him this way *{now blaming YOU}. Over the weekend it went from him going to AZ with his son to visit mom over 2 weeks of Christmas, to him moving out searching for an apartment all day Sunday, to then meeting with his pastor, (of 4 weeks) for intervention/counseling of what to do.
> 
> He came home from his little talk with Pastor a completely calm, changed, very remorseful man. Telling me this pastor is our key. He made more sense to him in 2hours then any of the counselor I or he has gone to. Said he did make some harsh comments to him, admiting to him some of the things he has self diagnosised is dead on and true about himself. He then said the pastor told him the latest incident between him and our daughter (on day of her bday) was a mistake but those situations happen and we use those to learn from. I guess since he has owned the situation and apologized for it, explained to our daughter it was wrong that is okay and we need to use it as a stepping stone in parenting and move on. My gut tells me their was no explantion of the FEAR my daughter had and the RAGE he had!
> 
> I was feeling so good about myself in being upfront on how he has made me feel, what I see, and that I do not feel my happiness for self is here. He brought up how due to my family being so close nit etc., that is partly why he decided to marry me as it was *totally opposite of what he grew up with and use to. That due to my family values and upbringing, I would be his happily ever after* {common for them to assign their happiness onto your shoulders or what you offer, like your family} due to now divorce. I did say my dissapointment is one of my many guilts in feeling this way. However, my family, has said they will support me no matter what. He then brings up daughter. *That I am making huge mistake on her behalf *{blaming you and not accepting blame}. He is a product of divorce at age 10, his son is as well, (although he's 28 now and a very bright young man). I told him she deserves a mom who is happy, entergetic, loving her days, living in the moments. I did say she deserved that from her dad as well. He agreed and *said us being apart will not give her that. She will have problems, struggle*, etc. {guilting you}
> 
> I said if it wasn't for her, this wouldnt' be so difficult. He said he agreed, however *if it wasn't for her he would've been gone long time ago *{now he's swinging around the wheel to aggression: trying to say you're worthless so you become afraid to let him go}. *He wouldn't have put up with my "change" for this long. *{more forceful aggression} Then said...no...YOU would have been gone. As in, he kicking me out as he owned the house we lived in prior to 2 years ago and this all started when we moved. Or at least it was 'revealed' when we moved. IF I was smart, I would have said "Oh, does the bible say it's okay to divorce when NO kids are involved?" *Because he just told me the bible says we need to work through this for our child*. {still more manipulation and lack of admission of guilt; notice he says "WE" have to work through it, not HE needs to} Although I hate the emotional state he has put her in, I struggle with the final outcome. *He started to get mad, but stopped himself. *{more cycling on the abuse wheel; right now he is in damage control, so he's on high alert for not looking like an abusive person, thus stopping himself from getting mad like he REALLY wants to do}And repeated what the pastor said. *That the times past, cannot be dwelled on.* {of course he wants that - that way, HE doesn't have to look at what he's done} As long as he is owning his wrong doing, makeing sure our daughter understands he is trying to correct it all, I view he thinks it's all okay. I brought up how this has been going on way back to potty training. He did finally let loose and say...*You have to get past all this ***** {again, cycling back to anger and control} or we will never make this a better marraige.
> 
> I said I'm at a no return point and I'm very sorry that hurts you. Last thing in the world I want to do is hurt anyone. All his comments made me feel like a horrible person. I told my mom after he kept saying all this scripture stuff to me from this pastor I feel like if I follow through I'm going to hell!
> 
> Why is doing what is right for ones self, so damn difficult? Why do I have to be an emotional caring female?! He wants me to meet with his pastor he says just once. Mom says I should and explain my side, the fears in daughter, the guilt, etc. Thing is...I don't want the bibel thrown at me! The guilt of commitment. My daughter even made a comment Sunday when her and I were putting up the tree..."daddy went to talk to the pastor? Me..yes. Her...why? Me...because he is upset with mommy he needs someone to talk to. Sometimes mommies and daddies say things that upset one another and sometimes mommies and daddies need other people to talk to so that is what he is doing. Her...Oh...so..are you breaking up? Me...what do you mean? Her...you know....divorce? Me...we shouldn't be talking about this. Right now, mommie and daddie are not breaking up. Her...okay and off she goes onto someting else.
> 
> Is this a sign for me? Even if he does get help, I truly do not feel this is the right thing. I don't want to worry about his 'set offs' or what I do to set him off rather. Then I worry since he blames his actions on me, we seperate divorce, since he is so depressed and all, what when him and daughter are alone, he yells and gets mad, losing patience, and I'm not there to make her feel safe! All becuase he is thinking of me, not liking us apart, me being happy and takes it out on her like he has been! {you need to start documenting all instances of him hurting or scaring her in a notebook; you may have to deal with this in court, if he gets worse, to keep him from getting custody}
> 
> I know what the Bible says about marriage and commitment and so on, but even pastors get divorced, even the strongest of Christians or strongest of faiths may get or be divorced. Thousands of children around are from divorced parents and majority of children I"m sure have grown up to be Doctors, Lawyers, etc.
> 
> Will I have my moments of missing companionship...sure. Moments of needed that extra person to help me so I don't get into a slump of frusteration doing it all on my own...sure. I'm lost more now then before. He is doing all the above....all that was said....how did I not see this way back? *How could I have allowed it to get this far *{if you read more about it you'll see that it is an incremental thing; I call them 'give in' events, because you give in once and think it won't happen again; but it does} and to this point of now what I feel is distruction of lives? How?!


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