# His Needs, Her Needs



## Created2Write

I have a question for those who have used HNHN: how long did it take for you and your SO to make these new actions habitual? 

So, H and I have been doing His Needs, Her Needs for probably...right around six months. Although H never took the time to read it, I read it and wrote down the basic principles outlined in the book so he could get the gist of it. I did read to him the chapters that applied to my needs. He did fill out the questionaire, and we started making strides toward meeting each others needs. 

It's been an entirely up-hill battle for both of us. 

His job is hectic, stressful, he's worked overtime everyday for the last couple of months, his coworkers are irresponsible...point being, his job is awful. When he comes home at night he's anxious to relax and wind down, which is understandable. Usually we'll eat once he gets home, and then we'll spend the rest of the evening watching television, or he'll play his video games, or, depending on the night, we might be out and about. Being in Mary Kay, there are things I have to do every week that I can really only do in the evenings because we have only one car atm. 

The issue is this: there seems to be a lot of difficulty for him when it comes to managing his time and prioritizing, which he readily admits himself. When we first did the questionaire, we decided to take things slowly and not pile on all five basic needs at once. We started with each others top two, and even with those, we outlined a very basic weekly routine to help us get into the groove of doing things daily/weekly for the other person. But this routine was never meant to be the _only_ things we did; it was meant as a starting point. 

We have yet to move on from this starting point. We've talked about it a few times over the last six months, and I don't know if maybe I didn't communicate very clearly that this really was only meant to be a starting point, or if he just forgot...but he seemed to think he was trying very hard to meet my needs. Suffice it to say, I heartily disagreed with him. 

Last night we had another discussion. One of my biggest issues is that, when it comes to being proactive about our marriage, _I_ am the one who is proactive. He, to me, has seemed incredibly passive. He hasn't, from what I know, even touched HNHN himself, he hasn't gone online to seek encouragement or advice, he hasn't stepped out an _done_ anything to try and help himself understand my needs better. He doesn't even ask _me_ for clarification or help. Last night I told him that that makes me feel as if I'm not a priority. There have been times when he would go for days and not say anything admiring to me and, being my number one need, that made me anxious. It hurt. There have been quite a few times when it was put off until we were in bed, about to fall asleep. Man, did that make me feel like nothing but an afterthought. I would have rather gone without entirely.

Anyway, we talked last night. It was a fruitful conversation, but not much of a comforting one. He did admit that he struggles with maintaining his priorities. Emotionally, he said I'm number one without a doubt. But as far as his actions go, he struggles. I wrote out lists of all five of my basic needs (Admiration, Affection, Honesty and Openness, Sexual Fulfillment and Recreational Companionship) and what qualifies as something that would meet those needs. Sexual Fulfillment, for example, goes beyond an orgasm for me. So I listed the things that would help me to feel sexually fulfilled. He _really_ liked the lists. He said it organized things for him in a way that he could understand, and by the end of the conversation, he seemed to have a lot of faith that this would help. 

I'm skeptical. I've written him lists before and I never once saw him even pick them up. Eventually, he lost them. Granted, the way these lists are written are different...I have the frequency at which I expect to receive certain things, I've outlined things _I_ would find really special and romantic to do(activities, date ideas), I say why these things matter, and I also listed some love busters...things that really hurt me and irritate me. So this list is definitely different than the others I've written. I tried to make it as little ambiguous as I could. H gets confused, I think, when things are ambiguous. He says he wants to meet my needs, but without clear directions I think he gets so worried about not doing the right thing that it keeps him from doing anything at all. Hopefully this will help. 

I also stuck tabs inside HNHN and underlined certain sections that I really wanted him to read. The book was "daunting" to him, he said, and he didn't know where to start, which was why he hadn't read it. Personally, I was really hurt that, because a book was "daunting" it kept him from doing what he knew would help him understand and meet my needs. He doesn't understand why I don't feel like a priority, but it's things like that that make it impossible for me to feel like a priority. Anyway, he was really thrilled that I went through the trouble of reading through it again and highlighting the places I wanted him to read the most. At this point, I'm so anxious to see him *actively take part in all of this* that I could care less how much work I have to do to make it happen. I feel like he's being passive about our marriage, and he's not a passive person. I've seen him work hard at his job, work hard in the gym, work hard on his car...I know he has it in him, I'm just waiting to see when it will be my turn to get his full efforts. 

As difficult as it has been, I've been trying more the last two weeks to meet his needs whether mine are met or not. I wasn't doing that before. I was waiting to see how long it would take of me not meeting his needs before he'd say something. He never spoke a word of it until _I_ brought it up. I know some people here disagree with the concept of giving when you're not receiving, but if I stop meeting his because he's stopped meeting mine, it's thrown back in my face. At least this way, I can have a guilt-free conscience knowing I did my part. 

I asked him to write out similar lists of his needs for me, that way I know specifically what to do. Right now all I really know is that massages matter _a lot_, he likes my companionship and doing things with me(anything, as long as we're actively _with_ each other, not just existing next to each other), sex matters a lot(for me too), and keeping the apartment relatively tidy helps him relax. I need a bit more info than that, but those are great starting points. 

Anyway, that's my update.


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## Faithful Wife

I'd have to say that I did 95% of the research when it came to good marriage practice, and then I did 95% of the implementation of the practices I found (the reading, studying, applying the principals to my own behavior first, downloading the forms, etc).

After I laid it all out there for him, (which he loved), he picked up the pieces slowly, like what you are describing that your H is doing.

I think one of the main problems for many men, is that they automatically place their career efforts higher in importance than their own or their wives emotional needs. They do this automatically, not consciously. So then it gets very confusing to them when we say "hey - your priorities are wrong!" 

They hear you say that, but they can't over-ride their wiring...they still hold their hobbies and their career that help them feel autonomous ABOVE our emotional needs...but they can be convinced this is wrong, it just takes a lot of convincing.

Women have a natural advantage in that we want to emotionally smother people we love. So many of us actually have to "tone down" our desire to pour love on our men.

I had to have so many similar conversations with my husband over the years. It did finally sink in. And the strange part is, he never loved me any more or less when he wasn't putting my emotional needs as a higher priority...so it didn't really "mean anything" that he wasn't fulfilling my needs.


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## diwali123

Will he come to TAM? 
I wonder what his reaction would be if you showed him the research on walk away wives and how many wait until the woman is filing for a divorce to get in gear.


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## TCSRedhead

I can relate to your husband a LOT. Because my job is so consuming and stressful, by the time I settle down at night my brain is still churning and processing.

I love and adore my husband but I do know that he gets annoyed when I'm still checking my email after 8 p.m. or on the weekends. 

I was really worried that when we drew the lines about time spent together and leaving work at work that my performance would suffer. It is but not in a way that will harm my career and my marriage has improved significantly. 

It's taken at least 8 months to get to this place though. 

Maybe you can have regular 'check-in' times with each other to see how you both feel about progress?


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> I'd have to say that I did 95% of the research when it came to good marriage practice, and then I did 95% of the implementation of the practices I found (the reading, studying, applying the principals to my own behavior first, downloading the forms, etc).
> 
> After I laid it all out there for him, (which he loved), he picked up the pieces slowly, like what you are describing that your H is doing.
> 
> I think one of the main problems for many men, is that they automatically place their career efforts higher in importance than their own or their wives emotional needs. They do this automatically, not consciously. So then it gets very confusing to them when we say "hey - your priorities are wrong!"
> 
> They hear you say that, but they can't over-ride their wiring...they still hold their hobbies and their career that help them feel autonomous ABOVE our emotional needs...but they can be convinced this is wrong, it just takes a lot of convincing.
> 
> Women have a natural advantage in that we want to emotionally smother people we love. So many of us actually have to "tone down" our desire to pour love on our men.
> 
> I had to have so many similar conversations with my husband over the years. It did finally sink in. And the strange part is, he never loved me any more or less when he wasn't putting my emotional needs as a higher priority...so it didn't really "mean anything" that he wasn't fulfilling my needs.


Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is a lot like our situation, so this is encouraging. How long did it take until it "sunk in" for your husband?


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## Created2Write

diwali123 said:


> Will he come to TAM?
> I wonder what his reaction would be if you showed him the research on walk away wives and how many wait until the woman is filing for a divorce to get in gear.


He's created an account here, but not yet posted. He says he's uncomfortable. He really only joined because I'd mentioned it so much and he finally asked, "You really want me to join TAM, don't you?" I said yes. So he did. 

I really don't know what his reaction would be. We've had some pretty bad fights in the last few months. There are times when I feel like he definitely wouldn't let it get to divorce, and then there are times when I feel like he'd let me walk away and not even try to stop it.  So, I don't know.


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## Faithful Wife

At least two or three years...and all that time, I had to keep doing the work on my half of the street. And that was the thing that really helped us be successful. The more I did the work, the more it paid off for us later. Because I was able to see the benefits in myself, I was more able to be patient and wait for him to do his part of the work, too.

Don't get me wrong...we had many serious discussions about all of these issues...MANY.

It wasn't that he didn't want to get on board though, it was that he had to fight through his natural inclinations toward being self-focused...which I think is a healthy way to be in general, but it can drain out the love bank of a marriage...which was something he had to LEARN. It took quite a bit of time for him to really learn this. When your whole life you've learned "take care of yourself, no one else will" it is hard to translate that to "but take care of your wife, too or she will eventually walk away". I had been so in love with him that I think he never thought I would walk away. I have set him straight on that.

But now?

He's all on board and the plan rolls even smoother than I ever hoped it would.


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## Created2Write

TCSRedhead said:


> I can relate to your husband a LOT. Because my job is so consuming and stressful, by the time I settle down at night my brain is still churning and processing.
> 
> I love and adore my husband but I do know that he gets annoyed when I'm still checking my email after 8 p.m. or on the weekends.
> 
> I was really worried that when we drew the lines about time spent together and leaving work at work that my performance would suffer. It is but not in a way that will harm my career and my marriage has improved significantly.
> 
> It's taken at least 8 months to get to this place though.


I would love to help my husband relax and wind down for the evening after he's come home. But there are so many things he wants to be able to do, I just don't know where we're going to get the time. He wants to hang with his friends, _I_ want him to hang with his friends...he's too solitary. But while he keeps working overtime, it's going to be extremely difficult to manage until I have my own car. He wants to work out at the gym at least three times week...again, until I have a car, it will be very difficult to manage. He wants time to play his instruments, but there are a lot of things we have to get done on the weekends to get me a car, and to help me succeed at my business. 

Once I have a car, he will have Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday evenings to himself most of the time, leaving Tuesday and Thursday evenings, and all day Saturday to ourselves. But until I have a car....

And he's not good with time management, which only adds more stress. I don't want to nag him, but I don't want to be shoved aside until the last minute either. So I really don't know how to help him relax. 



> Maybe you can have regular 'check-in' times with each other to see how you both feel about progress?


We've tried this. Either neither of us remembered, or I was the only one to initiate the conversation.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> So, H and I have been doing His Needs, Her Needs for probably...right around six months. Although *H never took the time to read it*, *I *read it and *wrote down* the basic principles outlined in the book *so he* could get the gist of it. *I did read to him* the chapters that applied to *my* needs. He did fill out the questionaire, and we started making strides toward meeting each others needs.
> 
> It's been an entirely up-hill battle for both of us.


I wonder why?

You went and told him he wasn't doing marriage right, here's the fix, and do what I say.

I'm not dissing you, just explaining that what you did is like telling a fireman he needs to start being a painter now to please you, and btw, why the heck isn't he enjoying being a painter?


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## Faithful Wife

Sorry turnera but I disagree. Maybe you would feel that way, but my husband was very grateful that I did all the work, including showing him where he was going wrong...because HOW ELSE would he know?


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## turnera

He obviously has learned to tell you what he thinks you want to hear, so you'll leave him alone. Pretty common of a lot of men. Who just want to live life and not be nagged.

What you REALLY need to do here is let him see what HE will get out of all this. You say you informed him of all YOUR top needs. Have you let him see how you're meeting HIS? Have you let him see what it's like to go WITHOUT you meeting all his needs, if you're already meeting them all?


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## turnera

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry turnera but I disagree. Maybe you would feel that way, but my husband was very grateful that I did all the work, including showing him where he was going wrong...because HOW ELSE would he know?


 But she's already said that he never follows through.


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## Faithful Wife

You haven't read this book then, turnera?


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## Faithful Wife

Mine didn't either for many years...and I KEPT TELLING HIM the same thing, until he did follow through.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> At least two or three years...and all that time, I had to keep doing the work on my half of the street. And that was the thing that really helped us be successful. The more I did the work, the more it paid off for us later. Because I was able to see the benefits in myself, I was more able to be patient and wait for him to do his part of the work, too.


Good to know. I haven't been consistent with meeting his needs, partly from design(we had a plan to motivate him to try harder...when he met one of my needs, I'd meet one of his[excluding sex. Sex was never, ever, up for being ignored.]...We went weeks with neither of us getting our needs met, so we stopped that.), and partly from me just running dry. But, I do want to meet his needs so I will continue to work on myself and hope that that will motivate him. 



> Don't get me wrong...we had many serious discussions about all of these issues...MANY.
> 
> It wasn't that he didn't want to get on board though, it was that he had to fight through his natural inclinations toward being self-focused...which I think is a healthy way to be in general, but it can drain out the love bank of a marriage...which was something he had to LEARN. It took quite a bit of time for him to really learn this. When your whole life you've learned "take care of yourself, no one else will" it is hard to translate that to "but take care of your wife, too or she will eventually walk away". I had been so in love with him that I think he never thought I would walk away. I have set him straight on that.
> 
> But now?
> 
> He's all on board and the plan rolls even smoother than I ever hoped it would.


This sounds a lot like my husband...and is very similar to what I told him last night; I felt that, when he came home from work, his focus was entirely on his own relaxation and not at all on me. 

Was there anything specific that helped your husband learn how to not be as self-focused?


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## turnera

Of course I read the book. And I read it out loud to my husband. And a few dozen other books. But nothing changed until I started trying to see if from HIS perspective.

You can't MAKE someone want to change. Not really. When it becomes something that THEY look forward to, things will change.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I wonder why?
> 
> You went and told him he wasn't doing marriage right, here's the fix, and do what I say.
> 
> I'm not dissing you, just explaining that what you did is like telling a fireman he needs to start being a painter now to please you, and btw, why the heck isn't he enjoying being a painter?


So the solution is for _me_ to stop being a painter and become a firemen? 

His needs aren't my needs, yet I'm still expected to meet his even though they aren't natural for me. But when it comes to him meeting mine, I should just take what I get and be happy about it?


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## turnera

Another good book to read - and an easy one - is Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. from www.bettermen.org. I bought it, thinking I'd give it to DH to read so he could 'shape up' but I read it first. And it finally got me to realize that HE has a point of view, too. Basically, it tells men that they should have stuff for themselves, like Saturday morning basketball with the boys or whatever - BUT ONLY AFTER they have given their marriage, their wife, and their family their first and foremost attention. THEN they can also fit in the stuff they want (like coming home and vegging in front of the tv) with a clear conscience and a happy wife.


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## Faithful Wife

"Was there anything specific that helped your husband learn how to not be as self-focused?"

Well, I am lucky in that even though he was overall self-focused, he loves giving and receiving affection and admiration...so on those topics, I was always getting enough. 

But one of the biggest things that made him really want to change and come toward me more was seeing how hard I was going out of my way to avoid love busters. The more I worked to correct the following:

angry outbursts
selfish demands
annoying habits

The more he felt my love coming toward him, the more that made him want to reciprocate that love.

So oddly enough, it was me controlling my love busters that got him on board the fastest.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> So the solution is for _me_ to stop being a painter and become a firemen?
> 
> His needs aren't my needs, yet I'm still expected to meet his even though they aren't natural for me. But when it comes to him meeting mine, I should just take what I get and be happy about it?


 You're not listening. Your posts are all about getting HIM to do what YOU want. You even talked about tit-for-tat in an attempt to jolt him into remembering to meet your needs.

People don't work that way.

You need to find out what motivates HIM and present it to him in a way that will get him enthusiastic.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry turnera but I disagree. Maybe you would feel that way, but my husband was very grateful that I did all the work, including showing him where he was going wrong...because HOW ELSE would he know?


Same here. H was really grateful that I made the list and highlighted certain places in the book. I'd rather do that and actually get him to read the thing for once, than to sit and wait for something that, probably, wouldn't happen if I hadn't made it easier for him.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> He obviously has learned to tell you what he thinks you want to hear, so you'll leave him alone. Pretty common of a lot of men. Who just want to live life and not be nagged.
> 
> What you REALLY need to do here is let him see what HE will get out of all this. You say you informed him of all YOUR top needs. *Have you let him see how you're meeting HIS?*


Yes. 



> *Have you let him see what it's like to go WITHOUT you meeting all his needs, if you're already meeting them all?*


And yes.


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## turnera

Faithful Wife said:


> But one of the biggest things that made him really want to change and come toward me more was seeing how hard I was going out of my way to avoid love busters. The more I worked to correct the following:
> 
> angry outbursts
> selfish demands
> annoying habits
> 
> The more he felt my love coming toward him, the more that made him want to reciprocate that love.
> 
> So oddly enough, it was me controlling my love busters that got him on board the fastest.


ABSOLUTELY!

I can't like this post enough!

In fact, that is the ONE THING about HNHN that made a difference. In fact, and I can't believe I forgot to say it, the ONE thing I tell people about HNHN is to NEVER start with the EN questionnaire. ALWAYS start with the LB questionnaire first.

Why? Because of the Love Bucket. If you poke a hole if your spouse's Bucket with one of your LBs - and it could be as major as blowing thousands of dollars without asking you or as minor as leaving dirty Q-tips around the house (like my DH does) - any love (EN) you try to meet will just flow right out of that hole. Poke enough holes in his/her Love Bucket with LBs you COULD be correcting, and you could be meeting ENs til the cows come home and it won't matter because the other person is too busy nursing all that resentment at you for hurting them.

Both of you should find those LBs, and spend at least 3 solid months doing nothing but changing your habits to eliminate them. THEN return to the EN questionnaire - which may just have changed by then, as the LBs have been eliminated.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes.


I don't mean with the 'we tried only meeting an EN once the other person met an EN.' That's manipulation and won't work.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> Same here. H was really grateful that I made the list and highlighted certain places in the book. I'd rather do that and actually get him to read the thing for once, than to sit and wait for something that, probably, wouldn't happen if I hadn't made it easier for him.


 I thought you said he hasn't even touched it himself.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Of course I read the book. And I read it out loud to my husband. And a few dozen other books. But nothing changed until I started trying to see if from HIS perspective.
> 
> You can't MAKE someone want to change. Not really. When it becomes something that THEY look forward to, things will change.


I have tried to see it from his perspective. That's precisely why I highlighted specific sections in the book and made a few lists for him. I get that he works a difficult job and doesn't want to come home and put in tons of time on something like a marriage book. But he won't ever grasp the principles and see their importance if he never reads it, so why _wouldn't_ I help him as much as possible?

And how, exactly, am I supposed to make this something he will look forward to? I know I can't make him change, but I can express to him the importance of trying.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> "Was there anything specific that helped your husband learn how to not be as self-focused?"
> 
> Well, I am lucky in that even though he was overall self-focused, he loves giving and receiving affection and admiration...so on those topics, I was always getting enough.
> 
> But one of the biggest things that made him really want to change and come toward me more was seeing how hard I was going out of my way to avoid love busters. The more I worked to correct the following:
> 
> angry outbursts
> selfish demands
> annoying habits
> 
> The more he felt my love coming toward him, the more that made him want to reciprocate that love.
> 
> So oddly enough, it was me controlling my love busters that got him on board the fastest.


Okay. I know a few of his love-busters, and I've been doing my best to stay away from them. I am lucky in that he immediately recognizes when I'm trying to stay away from those, which is good. I almost always get positive feedback from that. Once I know more of his love-busters, then that will give me more to work on.


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## turnera

He will look forward to it if he sees benefits for HIM. What is lacking in HIS life (not yours)? What does he wish you were doing more/better/less? Work on that. Do the LB questionnaires asap and focus on that. Get to a point where he feels safe being honest with you (I sense he doesn't and just tells you what you want to hear). Ask his best friend what he really thinks. 

The thing is, what you're describing is what happens in probably 75% of all marriages - the man gets someone to replace his mother and provide him the benefits of a home: sex, family, cooking, laundry, nice home, and they're happy. But the woman wants more: she wants what she got when he was pursuing her - making her feel special, talking to her, putting her first...and so she complains. And he tells her what she wants to hear, to get her to stop, makes promises he may intend to keep but really couldn't care less about, makes noises about 'what a great book this is' and hopes she drops it. Only she keeps bringing it up - for six months. Expect him to get mad pretty soon - mad that he's 'not enough' for you and that his manhood is being threatened by not being good enough for you, all the typical things males do when put in this situation: push back. Then you'll both be frustrated, and who knows what will happen next.

So...how to make him care? Find out what really matters to him. Show him somehow that what YOU need is as important to YOU as what HE needs, which seems to be comfort, vegging out, and being proud of his job. Maybe you could agree to show him what life would be like if you STOPPED making sure he's getting everything he needs. Tell him - in the interests of science - that you're going to stop being his wife for a couple weeks, so he can see how YOU have been feeling. And just cohabitate for a couple weeks, let him fix his own food, wash his own clothes, do without his sex, watch tv on the old black and white in the basement...you get the idea. Maybe after a couple weeks of that, he'd be more willing to listen.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> You're not listening. Your posts are all about getting HIM to do what YOU want. You even talked about tit-for-tat in an attempt to jolt him into remembering to meet your needs.
> 
> People don't work that way.
> 
> You need to find out what motivates HIM and present it to him in a way that will get him enthusiastic.


I'm listening just fine, thanks. 

I've tried that. He doesn't _know_ what motivates him. I've tried everything he's given me, and thus far, nothing has worked to make consistent changes. He's said it dozens of times himself, that he doesn't know why all of this is do difficult for him.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> Okay. I know a few of his love-busters, and I've been doing my best to stay away from them. I am lucky in that he immediately recognizes when I'm trying to stay away from those, which is good. I almost always get positive feedback from that. Once I know more of his love-busters, then that will give me more to work on.


Did you two not fill out the LB questionnaire? Do that this week. Make it official about what you each want the other to stop. It's a lot easier to look for those LBs (and revel in their abscence) than it is to know if ENs are being met. Focus on that for now.


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## Mavash.

Talk less DO more.

Turnera is on this.


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> I'm listening just fine, thanks.
> 
> I've tried that. He doesn't _know_ what motivates him. I've tried everything he's given me, and thus far, nothing has worked to make consistent changes. He's said it dozens of times himself, that he doesn't know why all of this is do difficult for him.


 I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to help you avoid the ten years of hell I went through doing exactly what you're doing.

He doesn't know why because he IS getting all his needs met so he has no REASON to change. Men are very good at saying yes dear and intending to do nothing about it. Give him a reason to care.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I don't mean with the 'we tried only meeting an EN once the other person met an EN.' That's manipulation and won't work.


I wasn't referring to that.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I thought you said he hasn't even touched it himself.


He hasn't yet. Last night, when he saw the tabs and the highlighted sections, he said he would pick it up soon...that, now that he had more direction, it wouldn't be as daunting.


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## Faithful Wife

Created...for myself? I talked about this as much as I wanted to and needed to. I trusted myself. I did not let anything slide...I expressed myself when I needed to...I used radical honesty. I am mouthy, and my husband loves me, so me telling him anything I needed to doesn't daunt him. He knows me. This is how I am. In fact, if I hold things back, he immediately knows it and will get mad if I don't express myself.

So you will likely have some people telling you to stop talking so much and put more work into it. 

That may work for some but it would NEVER work for me.

My way worked for me.


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## turnera

One time, at the behest of my IC, I told my H that I needed him to take ONE THING off my plate. Just ONE household duty, as I was currently doing EVERYTHING except mowing the lawn. He looked me in the eyes and said no, he never knew when he'd be home (sales job) and have time to do anything! I was flabbergasted. Our house was falling apart around our ears, I did ALL the work, and he couldn't do a single thing? 

So I sat and stewed on it for a few days, and then I realized: I didn't HAVE to meet all his needs, which was the exact reason he had no reason to say yes. What did he care if I was doing everything as long as I continued to meet all his needs? 

So I stopped doing his laundry.

It took him about a month to run out of clothes. He got more and more agitated as that month ran on. Finally, he blew up at me, how DARE I not do his laundry, how COULD I be such a horrible wife?

I just sat there and listened and let him blow it off. And then I shrugged and said "I ASKED you to help me out with ONE chore. Just ONE. I would have gladly continued to meet all your needs (he knew what I meant, as I'd already read him the book), if you would have just shown me a LITTLE consideration and love and picked ONE thing to do. But you didn't. So I had no choice. To do what my doctor ordered, to save my sanity, I had to remove one chore from my already burdened shoulders. So I picked your laundry. You can choose not to help me out; I can choose not to do your laundry." And I got up and left. To do other chores.

That afternoon, he fixed a broken lamp. Later, he vacuumed the living room. 

And I did a load of his laundry.

We've been going uphill (in a good sense) ever since.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> He will look forward to it if he sees benefits for HIM. What is lacking in HIS life (not yours)? What does he wish you were doing more/better/less? Work on that. Do the LB questionnaires asap and focus on that. Get to a point where he feels safe being honest with you (I sense he doesn't and just tells you what you want to hear). Ask his best friend what he really thinks.


This ^ I will do.



> The thing is, what you're describing is what happens in probably 75% of all marriages - the man gets someone to replace his mother and provide him the benefits of a home: sex, family, cooking, laundry, nice home, and they're happy. But the woman wants more: she wants what she got when he was pursuing her - making her feel special, talking to her, putting her first...and so she complains. And he tells her what she wants to hear, to get her to stop, makes promises he may intend to keep but really couldn't care less about, makes noises about 'what a great book this is' and hopes she drops it. Only she keeps bringing it up - for six months. Expect him to get mad pretty soon - mad that he's 'not enough' for you and that his manhood is being threatened by not being good enough for you, all the typical things males do when put in this situation: push back. Then you'll both be frustrated, and who knows what will happen next.
> 
> So...how to make him care? Find out what really matters to him. Show him somehow that what YOU need is as important to YOU as what HE needs, which seems to be comfort, vegging out, and being proud of his job. Maybe you could agree to show him what life would be like if you STOPPED making sure he's getting everything he needs. Tell him - in the interests of science - that you're going to stop being his wife for a couple weeks, so he can see how YOU have been feeling. And just cohabitate for a couple weeks, let him fix his own food, wash his own clothes, do without his sex, watch tv on the old black and white in the basement...you get the idea. Maybe after a couple weeks of that, he'd be more willing to listen.


This ^...I agree with showing him that he is just as important to me as my own needs are. That's why I started the list idea. His needs are fairly ambiguous, so it would help if I had a clearer understanding of what he expects. I also need to know more of his love-busters. However, I don't agree with the not being his wife for two weeks. 

And he doesn't need comfort or vegging out in front of the t.v. My husband is an active person, which is why his passiveness regarding our relationship has hurt me as much as it has. As far as what he says he needs to motivate him, like I said before, he doesn't know.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Did you two not fill out the LB questionnaire? Do that this week. Make it official about what you each want the other to stop. It's a lot easier to look for those LBs (and revel in their abscence) than it is to know if ENs are being met. Focus on that for now.


It didn't come with the book, and we don't have a printer. I ordered a different book that said it had the LB questionaire and it should arrive in a couple of days.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I always printed the questionaires off at work and then took them home. I have a printer but some of the questionaires are over 10 pages long and it takes too long to print them on my measly home printer.

Plus at work then I could copy them to so we both had our copy.


----------



## Created2Write

Mavash. said:


> Talk less DO more.
> 
> Turnera is on this.


That's the problem...he _doesn't_ "do" more. It doesn't matter what _I_ do...if I meet his needs, things stay the same. If I don't meet his needs, things stay the same. He's getting to where I think he understands my needs more, but as far as actively meeting them, he doesn't put in enough effort. Even he admits that. And he says he doesn't know why. He says it's difficult for him to act on his priorities, but he doesn't know why. I've asked him what I can do to help him, and he says he doesn't know. 

I can't _do_ anything when I don't know what he needs me to do.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to help you avoid the ten years of hell I went through doing exactly what you're doing.
> 
> He doesn't know why because he IS getting all his needs met so he has no REASON to change. Men are very good at saying yes dear and intending to do nothing about it. Give him a reason to care.


I really do appreciate the help, it's just that I've tried all of this. I've stopped meeting his needs and _still_ nothing changes. He won't even tell me he's p!ssed that I stopped meeting his needs. It's like he doesn't even notice! But then, when I bring the topic up, I see that he HAS noticed cause it's the first thing he tosses out when I mention my needs being unmet..."Well you haven't met mine either". 

I'm at an utter loss.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Created...for myself? I talked about this as much as I wanted to and needed to. I trusted myself. I did not let anything slide...I expressed myself when I needed to...I used radical honesty. I am mouthy, and my husband loves me, so me telling him anything I needed to doesn't daunt him. He knows me. This is how I am. In fact, if I hold things back, he immediately knows it and will get mad if I don't express myself.
> 
> So you will likely have some people telling you to stop talking so much and put more work into it.
> 
> That may work for some but it would NEVER work for me.
> 
> My way worked for me.


I really don't know what to do. Talk more, talk less, do more, do less, care more, care less...When we started HNHN I thought I might have found something that would help him, but it was heart-wrenching that he never even touched it. Not even for his own needs! He never touched it once!

Right now my goal is to see him actively start working on things, whether it be identifying his own needs and love-busters, and/or working on mine...just to see him actively participate would thrill me to my toes.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> And he doesn't need comfort or vegging out in front of the t.v. My husband is an active person, which is why his passiveness regarding our relationship has hurt me as much as it has. As far as what he says he needs to motivate him, like I said before, he doesn't know.


 I was just throwing out typical motivations for men. 

What does he fill his day with? 

THAT is what motivates him. Watch what he DOES, not what he SAYS. We avoid what doesn't give us pleasure and we gravitate toward what makes us happy.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> It didn't come with the book, and we don't have a printer. I ordered a different book that said it had the LB questionaire and it should arrive in a couple of days.


 Go to your library, go on the marriagebuilders.com website, and print out the questionnaire.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> One time, at the behest of my IC, I told my H that I needed him to take ONE THING off my plate. Just ONE household duty, as I was currently doing EVERYTHING except mowing the lawn. He looked me in the eyes and said no, he never knew when he'd be home (sales job) and have time to do anything! I was flabbergasted. Our house was falling apart around our ears, I did ALL the work, and he couldn't do a single thing?
> 
> So I sat and stewed on it for a few days, and then I realized: I didn't HAVE to meet all his needs, which was the exact reason he had no reason to say yes. What did he care if I was doing everything as long as I continued to meet all his needs?
> 
> So I stopped doing his laundry.
> 
> It took him about a month to run out of clothes. He got more and more agitated as that month ran on. Finally, he blew up at me, how DARE I not do his laundry, how COULD I be such a horrible wife?
> 
> I just sat there and listened and let him blow it off. And then I shrugged and said "I ASKED you to help me out with ONE chore. Just ONE. I would have gladly continued to meet all your needs (he knew what I meant, as I'd already read him the book), if you would have just shown me a LITTLE consideration and love and picked ONE thing to do. But you didn't. So I had no choice. To do what my doctor ordered, to save my sanity, I had to remove one chore from my already burdened shoulders. So I picked your laundry. You can choose not to help me out; I can choose not to do your laundry." And I got up and left. To do other chores.
> 
> That afternoon, he fixed a broken lamp. Later, he vacuumed the living room.
> 
> And I did a load of his laundry.
> 
> We've been going uphill (in a good sense) ever since.


I'm glad that worked for you. I just don't know how it would go for him. I've stopped doing his laundry. He didn't say a word, just put a load in for himself. I've stopped cooking his meals. He just cooks them himself, doesn't say a thing. I've stopped trying to really spend quality time with him. He just plays video games and doesn't say a thing. 

The only thing I haven't done is stop having sex, and that's a line I'm terrified to cross. Sex is one of the primary things holding us together.


----------



## turnera

So, basically, you married the man I described earlier. Do you know what that usually leads to? Walkaway wives. Women who put 10, 20, 30 years into a marriage, waiting, hoping, for the man to get a clue that she's unhappy. Until she falls out of love with him. And leaves.

IIWY, I'd go to the library and start reading books about WAWs.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I was just throwing out typical motivations for men.
> 
> What does he fill his day with?
> 
> THAT is what motivates him. Watch what he DOES, not what he SAYS. We avoid what doesn't give us pleasure and we gravitate toward what makes us happy.


The gym, video games, playing his bass...and I'm sure if he could find the time, he'd include hanging with friends.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> The only thing I haven't done is stop having sex, and that's a line I'm terrified to cross. Sex is one of the primary things holding us together.


 That doesn't sound like a very good marriage, if he's only there cos the sex is good. 

And the only reason you're doing it is so he won't leave or cheat on you.  

Have you taken him to counseling? Have you talked to his dad? Maybe he'll listen to someone else.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> The gym, video games, playing his bass...and I'm sure if he could find the time, he'd include hanging with friends.


 Honestly, you don't have a marriage. You have a roommate who expects you to replace his mother.

I hate to be a downer, but my guess is the only thing that's going to wake him up is finding his luggage outside on the front porch.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> So, basically, you married the man I described earlier. Do you know what that usually leads to? Walkaway wives. Women who put 10, 20, 30 years into a marriage, waiting, hoping, for the man to get a clue that she's unhappy. Until she falls out of love with him. And leaves.
> 
> IIWY, I'd go to the library and start reading books about WAWs.


I don't like thinking of him in that way...just marrying me for comfort, saying what he thinks I want to hear just so I'll shut up....it's incredibly painful. 

I'll start reading about WAWs.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> That doesn't sound like a very good marriage, if he's only there cos the sex is good.
> 
> And the only reason you're doing it is so he won't leave or cheat on you.
> 
> Have you taken him to counseling? Have you talked to his dad? Maybe he'll listen to someone else.


I've told him that I think we might need counseling, and he was silent. His dad wouldn't be any help at all. He's a good man, but worse than my husband when it comes to affection. I don't know who else H would listen to...


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Honestly, you don't have a marriage. You have a roommate who expects you to replace his mother.
> 
> I hate to be a downer, but my guess is the only thing that's going to wake him up is finding his luggage outside on the front porch.


:'(


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> I don't like thinking of him in that way...just marrying me for comfort, saying what he thinks I want to hear just so I'll shut up....it's incredibly painful.
> 
> I'll start reading about WAWs.


I've read a lot more psychology books than I have marriage books, and that's a lot. So what I'm describing, unfortunately, is human nature.

My take on it is this: men are raised, as boys, to go out and have fun; fill their days with play. Women are raised to play house, pretend to have babies, pretend to get married, learn how to cook and clean and into their teens, daydream about boyfriends and relationships while the teen boys are 'daydreaming' about getting as much sex as they can. 

Rarely are the girls told or pushed to just go out and fill their days with fun. So when boys grow up, what makes you think they'll suddenly start caring about relationships, when all they ever thought about was having fun, getting sex, and maybe loving their job? MAYBE if they're really in love and were raised to be considerate to the girls, they might be able to see things from the girl's perspective. But more often than not, they are just grown up boys.

IMO, the one thing that has worked to equalize this imbalance is for the women to gain strength, which the men will recognize, as that's all the boys bragged about growing up. Strength in terms of saying 'I won't put up with this shyte any more, I deserve better, and if you don't pick up the slack, I'm gonna go find someone better.' THAT, they will recognize. All too often, however, women are too chicken to do that, and acquiesce, nag, cajole, plead, and the men do what they know how to do: tell the girls what they want to hear, to shut them up so they can continue to do what they want: play (gym, video games, bass, friends).


----------



## Faithful Wife

Created...Your husband is in love with you. Just because he is lacking good marriage information (which EVERY one is, by the way) doesn't mean he is just there to receive comfort from you.

At the same time, I am sure he really never thinks you would leave him and while that is sweet and all, EVERY person needs to understand that their spouse WILL leave them if they fall out of love.

Be patient with yourself and with your husband, but don't let things slide. If you have to lead this part of the relationship, DO IT.

My husband thanks me all the time for being the one to lead this part of our relationship because he sees the value in it now, and he knows he would not have done it himself.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I've read a lot more psychology books than I have marriage books, and that's a lot. So what I'm describing, unfortunately, is human nature.
> 
> My take on it is this: men are raised, as boys, to go out and have fun; fill their days with play. Women are raised to play house, pretend to have babies, pretend to get married, learn how to cook and clean and into their teens, daydream about boyfriends and relationships while the teen boys are 'daydreaming' about getting as much sex as they can.
> 
> Rarely are the girls told or pushed to just go out and fill their days with fun. So when boys grow up, what makes you think they'll suddenly start caring about relationships, when all they ever thought about was having fun, getting sex, and maybe loving their job? MAYBE if they're really in love and were raised to be considerate to the girls, they might be able to see things from the girl's perspective. But more often than not, they are just grown up boys.
> 
> IMO, the one thing that has worked to equalize this imbalance is for the women to gain strength, which the men will recognize, as that's all the boys bragged about growing up. Strength in terms of saying 'I won't put up with this shyte any more, I deserve better, and if you don't pick up the slack, I'm gonna go find someone better.' THAT, they will recognize. All too often, however, women are too chicken to do that, and acquiesce, nag, cajole, plead, and the men do what they know how to do: tell the girls what they want to hear, to shut them up so they can continue to do what they want: play (gym, video games, bass, friends).


It makes sense in general, I've just never seen him that way. He's said that he always wanted a healthy relationship and marriage...it's just that, lately, I've felt like he wants the perks of being married, just with a bachelor's life. And I don't feel like he's willing to make the necessary sacrifices. He's straight up told me that he doesn't feel he should have to sacrifice those things. My only response was that he'd have to figure out some pretty good time management then...cause wanting to work out for at least an hour three times a week, and wanting to play video games a few times a week, and wanting to spend time on his instruments throughout the week, while working 50+ hours and having a wife...maybe it's just me, but I really don't see that working.


----------



## turnera

I'd say it's working FINE for him. After all, he gets all the sex he wants and all the rest. All he has to do is say yes dear a few times a week and you blindly trust him and leave him alone.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Created...Your husband is in love with you. Just because he is lacking good marriage information (which EVERY one is, by the way) doesn't mean he is just there to receive comfort from you.
> 
> At the same time, I am sure he really never thinks you would leave him and while that is sweet and all, EVERY person needs to understand that their spouse WILL leave them if they fall out of love.


I've told him that I can't and won't stay in a marriage where I'm neglected, especially if my husband isn't willing to put more effort into actively trying to work with me. But every time I think about separating, I feel so guilty. 



> Be patient with yourself and with your husband, but don't let things slide. If you have to lead this part of the relationship, DO IT.
> 
> My husband thanks me all the time for being the one to lead this part of our relationship because he sees the value in it now, and he knows he would not have done it himself.


We'll have been married for four years this August. I don't think I can take another four of this.


----------



## turnera

I don't mean to say he doesn't love you. I'm sure he does. He just doesn't understand, like MANY men, that women need different things.

Get that N.U.T.S book I mentioned and read it out loud to him.


----------



## turnera

How old is he?


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I'd say it's working FINE for him. After all, he gets all the sex he wants and all the rest. All he has to do is say yes dear a few times a week and you blindly trust him and leave him alone.


Well, not _all_ the sex he wants. It's not high in frequency any more. Not because I don't desire it, cause I desire it very much, but because I want to feel like his wife _outside_ of the bedroom as well as inside. He doesn't initiate sex hardly at all anymore. He'll give me a kiss, but it's me who decides whether or not it'll be one of _those_ kisses....that lead to making love. I've told him that I'd love to get back into stripping for him. I used to strip for him once a week. He hasn't asked me to for years, which has massively effected my self-image. Last week he said he was fixing the stereo to make it easier for me to strip and, even though I was worried about how I would do, I was so excited to hear that. It meant he'd finally _heard_ me...but I haven't heard anything since.


----------



## Created2Write

He's 25.


----------



## turnera

Yep, he married a mother.


----------



## Faithful Wife

A mother who strips for him? :scratchhead:


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I'd say it's working FINE for him. After all, he gets all the sex he wants and all the rest. All he has to do is say yes dear a few times a week and you blindly trust him and leave him alone.


Well, he doesn't get to do those things very much. He doesn't play video games more than once or twice a week at most, he hasn't gone to the gym in quite a while, he hasn't played his bass in months, and he hasn't hung out with friends in a very long time. 

But those are things I know he wants to do often. We've just been too busy for them right now. Once I have a car things will be different.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Created...my husband cannot be "controlled" with sex. It sounds like yours will not be either.

What I mean by this is that if I withheld sex back when I was working through these issues, it would NOT have gotten his attention the way I might have hoped it would. So I'm suggesting you don't look at that particular item to use as a weapon...it won't work anyway, and it will just make you look desperate or controll-y.

I actually admire the fact that my husband will never be controlled or manipulated by sex.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> He's 25.


 OH, that changes a lot. IMO, 21 is WAY too young to get married, especially for men. He most likely decided to marry you cos (1) he thought the sex would be easier and more frequent and/or (2) you were really excited about it and he was still in the 'please her' mode so he agreed to it to make you happy. And then comes the realization that this is what he gets, so he'll make the best of it by still trying to be the cool, fun, single guy who happens to have a wife. Or else he was hoping you'd be one of those 'cool' hot young wives who lets him still act single, and he's found out you're not, lol.

This makes things a lot harder.


----------



## turnera

Faithful Wife said:


> A mother who strips for him? :scratchhead:


 Yep. What do you think men expect? How many men do you know who go into a marriage expecting to do 50% or more of caring for the household? They don't, on average. That's what they marry a woman for.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Created...my husband cannot be "controlled" with sex. It sounds like yours will not be either.
> 
> What I mean by this is that if I withheld sex back when I was working through these issues, it would NOT have gotten his attention the way I might have hoped it would. So I'm suggesting you don't look at that particular item to use as a weapon...it won't work anyway, and it will just make you look desperate or controll-y.
> 
> I actually admire the fact that my husband will never be controlled or manipulated by sex.


I don't like the idea of using sex as a weapon. I love having sex with him still. It's the most connected to him I feel. I think if I went months without making love with him he'd say something, but I don't think the result would be desirable. Plus, I'd die if I didn't have sex with him for months.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> OH, that changes a lot. IMO, 21 is WAY too young to get married, especially for men. He most likely decided to marry you cos (1) he thought the sex would be easier and more frequent and/or (2) you were really excited about it and he was still in the 'please her' mode so he agreed to it to make you happy. And then comes the realization that this is what he gets, so he'll make the best of it by still trying to be the cool, fun, single guy who happens to have a wife. Or else he was hoping you'd be one of those 'cool' hot young wives who lets him still act single, and he's found out you're not, lol.
> 
> This makes things a lot harder.


It was _his_ idea to get married when we did. He brought it up.


----------



## turnera

Then it was option #1.


----------



## Created2Write

We were having sex every day, multiple times a day. I'm not trying to argue, just saying that from my perspective it doesn't fit. The sex couldn't have been easier or more frequent than it currently was.


----------



## Faithful Wife

turnera said: "Yep. What do you think men expect? How many men do you know who go into a marriage expecting to do 50% or more of caring for the household? They don't, on average. That's what they marry a woman for."

I have respect for you turnera, but stop trying to school me, ok? You don't know what I know...I am not wet behind the ears. My comment about the mommy stripper was sarcasm....have you read many of Created's threads? I have a general idea of her relationship. Do you? My point was, knowing what I know about her relationship...her husband did not marry her to get a mommy out of it.


----------



## Mavash.

Created2Write said:


> That's the problem...he _doesn't_ "do" more. It doesn't matter what _I_ do...if I meet his needs, things stay the same. If I don't meet his needs, things stay the same. He's getting to where I think he understands my needs more, but as far as actively meeting them, he doesn't put in enough effort. Even he admits that. And he says he doesn't know why. He says it's difficult for him to act on his priorities, but he doesn't know why. I've asked him what I can do to help him, and he says he doesn't know.
> 
> I can't _do_ anything when I don't know what he needs me to do.


I'm so sorry. He's 25 and so very very young.

I married at 25 and it didn't turn out well. 

Our first 7 years were awful until we both grew up.

He was too busy with his career and I was angry.

It took a lot of therapy and MC to put us back on track.

We were 32 by then.

A much better age (I think) for marriage.

Some people know how to be married young but we weren't that lucky.


----------



## turnera

Faithful Wife said:


> turnera said: "Yep. What do you think men expect? How many men do you know who go into a marriage expecting to do 50% or more of caring for the household? They don't, on average. That's what they marry a woman for."
> 
> I have respect for you turnera, but stop trying to school me, ok? You don't know what I know...I am not wet behind the ears. My comment about the mommy stripper was sarcasm....have you read many of Created's threads? I have a general idea of her relationship. Do you? My point was, knowing what I know about her relationship...her husband did not marry her to get a mommy out of it.


 Fair enough, but it's pretty clear SHE has no idea what HE wants (other than what he's already getting).

And fwiw I wasn't talking to you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

You were talking to me when you addressed me in post # 67.


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> We were having sex every day, multiple times a day. I'm not trying to argue, just saying that from my perspective it doesn't fit. The sex couldn't have been easier or more frequent than it currently was.


You said he doesn't have time any more to do what he wants to do. Why is that?


----------



## Created2Write

Last night after our conversation he felt motivated, but I didn't. He noticed and was sad that I wasn't as excited as he was. But really, I don't have much excitement in me right now. I want that chemistry we had when we dated. I want to feel and see that I'm worth the effort to him. He says I'm worth it, but his actions say something else entirely. 

I'm very confused at the moment. I've been crying off and on all day and feeling very discouraged.


----------



## Faithful Wife

(((hugs)))

You are also coming down from a very emotional experience so....be kind and patient with yourself.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> You said he doesn't have time any more to do what he wants to do. Why is that?


Firstly, his job. He's had it for over a year now and he's worked overtime nearly everyday since he started, save for maybe three or four months in fall/winter. He has to be to work at 6:30 am, and works until 5:00 pm. For him to get a full nights rest, he has to be in bed by 9:00 pm. When he comes home, he doesn't want to just jump out of his work clothes and into his gym clothes and then go work out. And usually he wants to eat first...When he goes to the gym, he's rarely there before 6:00...works out until 7:00. Comes home. Winds down either watching Netflix or playing video games. 

That was before I joined Mary Kay. Now, Monday nights I have a group meeting I go to from 6:00-8:00. By the time we get home, it's time for bed. Tuesdays and Thursdays I work for my Sales Director and, since I don't have a car, I have to ride the bus for over two hours to get there. I get home around 7:00. He might workout or entertain himself for the two hours until he picks me up from the bus stop, depending on how late he works. Then Wednesday, Friday and Sunday I try to have facials scheduled and he has to drive me. Saturdays are reserved for us, but even then he has work he has to do on his car, we have to try and sell the one that broke down that we can't afford to fix...

We just have a very hectic life right now. And I'm trying to go back to school in Winter to finish my AA, and get an MA certificate so I can make better money.


----------



## diwali123

Does he have to work overtime?


----------



## turnera

Created2Write said:


> I'm very confused at the moment. I've been crying off and on all day and feeling very discouraged.


 I'm sorry, I've probably contributed to that. Just slow down, you're in a marathon, not a sprint. You'll get it worked out. I was just trying to get you to see the whole picture so you can make more proactive and beneficial steps, and not push him away or discourage him.

Is he getting a lot of extra money with the overtime? Are you saving that up for a car?

Maybe this can all wait until he's got the overtime issue worked out; it's hard to imagine you guys able to focus on marriage stuff when life is so hectic.


----------



## Created2Write

diwali123 said:


> Does he have to work overtime?


He's in a union, so I don't think he has to...but we really need the money.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I'm sorry, I've probably contributed to that. Just slow down, you're in a marathon, not a sprint. You'll get it worked out. I was just trying to get you to see the whole picture so you can make more proactive and beneficial steps, and not push him away or discourage him.
> 
> Is he getting a lot of extra money with the overtime? Are you saving that up for a car?
> 
> Maybe this can all wait until he's got the overtime issue worked out; it's hard to imagine you guys able to focus on marriage stuff when life is so hectic.


It's not a ton of extra, but it's enough to pay our bills. Even with overtime we don't have enough to save for much. And the overtime comes and goes. He's in construction, so he never knows if he'll have overtime the next week or not, until it's the last minute.


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## turnera

Are you making any real money at Mary Kay? Most people I've known basically just end up with enough to get their own stuff paid for. No chance for you getting a different job while you work on your AA?


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## RoseAglow

Hi Created, 

MB is awesome. Just looking at your last few replies, I can see that per MB your biggest problem is that you guys aren't spending enough time together. According to Dr Harley, couples need to spend at least 20 hours of time together- undivided attention, so movies/TV doesn't count- in order to fall in love. 15 hours/week are needed to maintain love. The time should be spent meeting the top 4 romantic needs, including admiration, affection, sexual fulfillment, and intimate conversation. 

With your current schedule, I am not sure how the two of you would have time to really meet needs. Start here- find a way, reschedule. You might need to get most of those hours in on Saturday and Sunday. If you can get in the 15/20 hrs, and avoid lovebusters- the time together has to be enjoyable for both of you- I'll bet you will see a big improvement pretty quickly.

Once things really kick in, you guys will be looking forward to getting home each night and spending time together. The fun you guys have will far outweigh video games, TV, etc.

Of course, it all sounds great online. The trick is getting the guy to buy-in. I think HNHN is available on CD/audio book, so if he doesn't like to read he could listen on his commute or in the gym. 

MB also has a radio program that is available free on-line. There is an app for it and it is accessible 24/hrs. He could also listen to that (so can you, I find it interesting and informative.)

Also, you can always email Dr. Harley with questions and if they choose your question, you can either be on the radio to discuss or just have them read the email. Either way it is free, and they will send you a free book. They can suggest ways to help your DH buy in.

Hang in there and don't lose hope.


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## Created2Write

I just started so, no. I'm working for my Sales Director right now, and she pays me, but it's all going towards my MK business. It isn't much anyway...it wouldn't be enough to save, and I can't get another job because of transportation issues.


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## Created2Write

I know it's that we're not spending enough time together. Just last night he said, "You keep complaining that we don't spend enough time together"...And we don't! I've tried going to the gym with him, but it simply isn't my passion like it is his. Especially as he is more into weight lifting and I don't like lifting weights, so we spend our time separate anyway. We've talked about trying to take some cheap ballroom dancing lessons, and found a ballroom we could(barely) afford, but we haven't gone.


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## turnera

I have a list somewhere I used to give out where I show about 50 different things you can do to spend time together that costs nothing or next to nothing. I'll see if I can find it when I get home. Get a jigsaw puzzle and keep it going on a table; got 5 free minutes? Sit down together and work on the puzzle. Do a sudoku puzzle together every morning over coffee. Go for a walk. Take a shower together. Start a planter box and grow tomatoes. Volunteer at the animal shelter on Sunday mornings. Start playing solitaire against each other for points. Learn a new recipe together each Sunday night. Teach yourselves chess. Create a website together for your Mary Kay business. It doesn't have to be an hour at a time; even 5 or 10 minutes will remind yourselves why you got together in the first place.


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## Faithful Wife

Here's post I made down in Long Term Success...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/88194-recreational-compansionship.html


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## Created2Write

We went through that list in our book, and haven't actually done any of them. I initiate nearly all recreational activities. Even though it's a need I have too, and that need he's hardly touched at all. His focus has been entirely on admiration and affection...leaving honesty and openness, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship behind.


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## turnera

What do you mean his focus?


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## Created2Write

I mean that his inconsistent efforts have mainly been on admiration and affection. When he does put in the effort to meet my needs, however much it is is divided between admiration and affection. It was meant to be a starting point...that way he wasn't overwhelmed, but it has never progressed beyond that. He didn't even know I had sexual fulfillment on my list until last night.


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## Created2Write

He came home on his break clearly expecting me to be all happy. It's like he thinks one conversation is going to make things better.


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## turnera

So when he tries to meet your needs, basically all he does is flatter you and cuddle with you. Right? That's pretty common for men, who really often just don't 'get' what ENs mean. They grow up hearing from other guys how to 'win' over a girl and it usually just means complimenting them and flirting and cuddling.

Many men need concrete examples. What are some of your other ENs? We can help you come up with some.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> So when he tries to meet your needs, basically all he does is flatter you and cuddle with you. Right? That's pretty common for men, who really often just don't 'get' what ENs mean. They grow up hearing from other guys how to 'win' over a girl and it usually just means complimenting them and flirting and cuddling.
> 
> Many men need concrete examples. What are some of your other ENs? We can help you come up with some.


He compliments me, yes. And cuddles, yet. I wouldn't say flatter...but my idea of flattery may be different from others. Flirting is very rare. I'd give anything to have him flirt with me. 

Aside from Admiration and Affection, I have Honesty and Openness(the honesty he's good about, when asked anyway, it's the openness that lacking), Sexual Fulfillment(I orgasm but...there's no more adventure...the chemistry, for me, is dying) and Recreational Companionship(spending more time together and doing it on purpose, _with_ a purpose).


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## turnera

Ok, well the RC is an easy one. "Husband, I've scheduled a free class at the Y on Sunday afternoon for us to take. I know you like ABC, and one of my top ENs is RC, so I figured it would be a perfect fit for both of us. How about it?"


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## turnera

Openness..."Husband, I'd like to know more about you. It's one of my top needs, that openness, so I was wondering if you could meet that need by talking to me about your past. Stuff you did with your friends, cousins you had, places you went...I'd LOVE to hear about all that. Do you think you could start telling me stuff?"


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Ok, well the RC is an easy one. "Husband, I've scheduled a free class at the Y on Sunday afternoon for us to take. I know you like ABC, and one of my top ENs is RC, so I figured it would be a perfect fit for both of us. How about it?"


RC is his number one need, so you'd think that he'd actively pursue doing things with me, but he doesn't. It's one of the most confusing things...


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## turnera

Sexual Fulfillment..."Husband, we need to spice things up, don't you think? I wanna have fun like when we were dating. So guess what? I'm inviting you to a very special occasion...it's tonight, right after your shower, and it takes place in the extra bedroom. YOUR job is to stop on the way home tonight and pick up a can of whipped cream (grin). I'll be waiting!" (and you'll get a string, a needle, and a bunch of strawberries...and when he shows up with his whipped cream, you'll have candles and music going, no lights, and all you'll be wearing is a string wrapped around your body that's chock full of strawberries...ready to eat)


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> RC is his number one need, so you'd think that he'd actively pursue doing things with me, but he doesn't. It's one of the most confusing things...


 Oh, I thought you meant that was YOUR need. 

IMO, he's fed up with this life where he has to beat himself up for money, where life used to be easy, he never gets to do any of his fun stuff (remember the talk about boys and playing?), so why would he want to spend RC time on you, when he never gets to do the RC stuff he wanted to do in the first place, that marriage has replaced.

And I just have to ask...if you aren't working, and you don't have a car, and you're just doing Mary Kay stuff, don't you think he's probably getting somewhat resentful?


----------



## RoseAglow

Created2Write said:


> I know it's that we're not spending enough time together. Just last night he said, "You keep complaining that we don't spend enough time together"...And we don't! I've tried going to the gym with him, but it simply isn't my passion like it is his. Especially as he is more into weight lifting and I don't like lifting weights, so we spend our time separate anyway. We've talked about trying to take some cheap ballroom dancing lessons, and found a ballroom we could(barely) afford, but we haven't gone.


The gym wouldn't count if you two weren't focused on each other, so that is a wash.

My DH and I have a young son. We do nearly all our time in the house. This isn't recommended, but it's what we can swing right now. We don't get 15 hours usually, but we get enough to keep things good between us most of the time. When we get snippy, usually we aren't spending enough time together.

We usually have to keep things small- an hour here, two there. My DH I have "foot rub" nights, where we will lie on the couch and rub each other's feet and just chat about our day. That hits affection and intimate conversation for us. We also take walks in the evening (our LO comes with us- again, not ideal.) We fit in other times for SF and we do admiration pretty frequently. Admiration comes really easily when you've got the romantic feelings going. 

It is really hard to keep a relationship going when the two people spend only a little bit of time together. It is really easy to lose sight of the need for quality time- it gets harder when you have kids, but if you two can prioritize this now, you'll have a great foundation for later.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Oh, I thought you meant that was YOUR need.
> 
> IMO, he's fed up with this life where he has to beat himself up for money, where life used to be easy, he never gets to do any of his fun stuff (remember the talk about boys and playing?), so why would he want to spend RC time on you, when he never gets to do the RC stuff he wanted to do in the first place, that marriage has replaced.
> 
> And I just have to ask...if you aren't working, and you don't have a car, and you're just doing Mary Kay stuff, don't you think he's probably getting somewhat resentful?


It is one of my needs, it's his top need. 

As far as MK goes, we talked about this before I joined. I asked him if he would support this, told him I would work very hard to do the best I can at it(which I have been), and that my goal was to replace his salary within two years. My joining MK was a mutual thing. I joined it to make money, but starting out you don't make as much. 

I AM also working for my Sales Director. I spend all day traveling, working, and then traveling home, at least twice a week. I make ten dollars an hour, and that money goes towards into my business so that he doesn't have to use the money he earns on my business. I also try to cook and clean and keep our apartment looking tidy, I pay all of the bills, I do the dishes 98% of the time while trying to get as much work as I can with MK, and having enough mental energy left over to work on meeting his needs while I'm home. The whole reason I joined MK was to pay off what I owe to the community college so I can complete my AA and Medical Assistant certificate, and get a full time job. It's not MY fault I don't have a car. Ours broke down and we can't afford to fix everything that's wrong with it. I'm trying to do what I can to earn enough so that we can afford a car so that he doesn't have to drive me all over. 

If he feels resentment he hasn't ever expressed it.


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## SimplyAmorous

turnera said:


> IMO, he's fed up with this life where he has to beat himself up for money, where life used to be easy, he never gets to do any of his fun stuff (remember the talk about boys and playing?), so why would he want to spend RC time on you, when he never gets to do the RC stuff he wanted to do in the first place, that marriage has replaced.
> 
> And I just have to ask...if you aren't working, and you don't have a car, and you're just doing Mary Kay stuff, don't you think he's probably getting somewhat resentful?


This is kinda harsh...

This is really tough, it's hard to get a man to be different than his natural way.. even Faithful wife, the things she was craving - that you are ...she says was there in the beginning... it was just some "attitude adjustments" that had to be worked out along the way with 2 strong willed personalities. 

This appears different than her story...as your Husband's father was very unaffectionate it sounds- all his life...he never changed /matured.... wondering how this played out with his Mother.....(some of us are near a carbon copy of our parents ...it's just in the genes)...

Did his parents remain married...and if so, was his MOTHER OK with that? Maybe they both kinda lived separate lives and managed to keep it afloat... just curious how you would describe his parents Marriage ??

I'll never agree that every man is the same and all should marry in their late 20's/ 30's either...to get all this PLAY out of their systems...this solely depends on the individual man. 

Marrying later could just = a man being more *ingrained* in his video games... bass playing, hanging with guys... ever more bad habits to break when he settles down. .. some get set in their ways.

I really don't know the answer here though.. I am sorry.


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## deejov

Created2Write said:


> That's the problem...he _doesn't_ "do" more. It doesn't matter what _I_ do...if I meet his needs, things stay the same. If I don't meet his needs, things stay the same. He's getting to where I think he understands my needs more, but as far as actively meeting them, he doesn't put in enough effort. Even he admits that. And he says he doesn't know why. He says it's difficult for him to act on his priorities, but he doesn't know why. I've asked him what I can do to help him, and he says he doesn't know.
> 
> I can't _do_ anything when I don't know what he needs me to do.


It's maybe not what he needs you to do... but what you need to do for yourself.

A question for you,
Does the issue of not getting your needs met make you feel less loved, wanted, or affect your self esteem?
Take some time with that, and ask yourself if it's about getting what the book says you should, or how you truly really feel when you are not getting a specific measured amount of attention?


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## Created2Write

deejov said:


> It's maybe not what he needs you to do... but what you need to do for yourself.
> 
> A question for you,
> Does the issue of not getting your needs met make you feel less loved, wanted, or affect your self esteem?


Yes to all three, and very much so. 



> Take some time with that, and ask yourself if it's about getting what the book says you should, or how you truly really feel when you are not getting a specific measured amount of attention?


Well, the book's only purpose is to help my husband meet my needs, and understand why they are important. And I definitely feel unloved and unwanted when my needs aren't met. He says that after he comes home from work he doesn't care what he does, just so long as he is with me, but we can't even have a discussion about my needs not being met without him tossing out how much he sacrifices...like the gym, his video games, his bass, his friends. And I've never asked him to give up those things, just to make sure that I come first. So, obviously, it isn't just me that he wants. I mean, how can I compare to a video game?


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## turnera

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is kinda harsh...


I'm just throwing out every possible scenario I can think of based on all the other cases like hers I've seen...one of them is bound to hit close to home, so she can then know what to do with it. Only she will know what fits.


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## deejov

Created2Write said:


> Yes to all three, and very much so.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the book's only purpose is to help my husband meet my needs, and understand why they are important. And I definitely feel unloved and unwanted when my needs aren't met. He says that after he comes home from work he doesn't care what he does, just so long as he is with me, but we can't even have a discussion about my needs not being met without him tossing out how much he sacrifices...like the gym, his video games, his bass, his friends. And I've never asked him to give up those things, just to make sure that I come first. So, obviously, it isn't just me that he wants. I mean, how can I compare to a video game?


Okay, so think back to when you were dating, first married....
He most likely just naturally met all of your needs, or you didn't really think about it, or it wasn't necessary to measure how well he was doing? Most people would answer yes (otherwise they wouldn't have gotten married) but I'll ask anyways. It's more than just "you were happy". Was he doing all these things, on a regular basis?


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## deejov

What I am gently trying to ask OP...

-Is there a possibility that your need to feel loved is too dependent on your husband? 

If it's that un-natural for him to do these things... that might just be his radar. People will naturally sense when something being asked of them is not aligned to what they should be giving (when it is something you should be doing for yourself)

And I also wanted to say kudos to you for still being willing to meet his needs, if it's your natural way to be giving \ loving, then do so. Be true to you. But don't forget to love yourself too.

Sometimes, when it's this hard to feel loved, it might be a sign that you could be searching for something that you need to address. If you were happy with how you felt in the past, were YOU happier in general?


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## committed4ever

Created, the picture you are painting of your marriage now is not the picture you have painted before this. It seems as if something is triggering your disappointments now. I hope and pray that you both are not rug sweeping any lingering feelings from your loss. 


Question for all of you,

Why did you do HNHN? Was it for prevention or cure?

I got my H to do 5 love languages, we actually had fun with it; we each did ours, did what we thought the other's was, then compared results. It was so successful that the next evening I said ok, let's do HNHN ... "now wait a minute, now I went along with the 5LL, and that was a'ight, but that's enough. I'm not into filling out a bunch of surveys and questionnaires, you know that."

He says I meet all of his needs; he has no major complaints. Then asks me to just tell him what i need and he'll do it. We don't need to do "all of that other stuff."

*So .... I guess that's my question....did every one do HNHN because you were not getting your needs met, or just as a way of making your marriage even better?*


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## Faithful Wife

I am sure that the mis-carriage has brought in an awareness of things that could be better in the marriage.


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## turnera

Hmm, that would have been good to know 8 pages ago. I wish you would have shared that at the start (in THIS thread; most of us don't have time to search for an OP's posting history in other threads), as it may have changed a lot of advice.

I'm sorry for your loss.


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## Created2Write

I guess I should have mentioned the miscarriage. Honestly it didn't occur to me until last night that, as FW said, it made me really consider a lot of things...one of them being that I haven't been as happy in my marriage is I would like to be. 

deejov...as far as my self-esteem goes, I will agree that I likely put too much weight on whether certain needs are met or not. My husband not asking me strip for him any longer, or wear lengerie, or taking me to even buy lengerie, probably shouldn't effect my self-esteem. At the same time, I'm not sure that I can entirely help it; a man whose wife consistently withholds sex, when before she seemed to desire him to no end, is likely going to feel a drop in his confidence. It's the same for me. 

Now, I've taken strides to start gaining my self-esteem back completely outside of my husband and what he says or does. 

As for me wanting him to love me in a way that isn't natural...so? He expects the same of me. I can't help or change the ways that I feel loved, and nor can he. Either we will both be willing to step outside of our comfort zones to meet those needs, whether they be natural for us or not, or there won't be a marriage left. I get that other couples may not have this issue, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong in expecting my needs to be met. 

Besides, these are needs that I _can't_ meet by myself. They require a second person. 

As an aside, he brought me a massive bouquet of red and pink roses yesterday(my favorite flowers) and then took me to get dinner, and then we went to the mall. He wanted to walk around the stores. Had a plan to buy me lengerie, but nothing in the store stood out to me that wasn't too expensive. So he bought me some jewelry. 

I'm feeling better today. These little things have shown me that he's listening to what I've been saying and that he's actually heard me. We had a good chat yesterday. I was able to tell him, frankly, about how I feel, and he didn't get defensive or shut down or grow cold...he genuinely listened and kept reassuring me. We had fun in the mall...we stopped in Barnes and Noble and looked at sex books.  It was great fun. We had some great intimacy last night too...holy cow, is all I will say. 

This is exactly the type of reaction I've been waiting for. I'm hoping that over the next few weeks, we'll see a shift in our marriage. He said he's going to write me the list of his emotional needs and love-busters so I have more of an idea of what I need to do for him. And the books I ordered should be here today or tomorrow. Hopefully they will help too.


----------



## diwali123

Well that sounds awesome! I'm happy for you!


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## Faithful Wife

I feel really confident you will get what you are wanting and needing, Created. You two are still *IN LOVE* with each other, and that helps more than anything.


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## SimplyAmorous

Your Mall stroll and the evening unfolding sounds like a Lover's Date ! Way to Go Created2Write's hubby - Keep it going !


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## Created2Write

We had sex on his lunch break. We were going to each lunch at Subway since we're all out of lunch foods. But I called him and said: "You have a choice: we can eat at Subway, or I can fix you whatever we have here and you can make love to me." 

He laughed and said, "The latter. Definitely."  

I need to look at sex books more often if this is the result. lol.


----------



## Created2Write

We've just started this journey, so I know that neither of us is going to be close to perfect. It's just sooo comforting to feel emotionally connected again.


----------



## deejov

Created2Write said:


> I guess I should have mentioned the miscarriage. Honestly it didn't occur to me until last night that, as FW said, it made me really consider a lot of things...one of them being that I haven't been as happy in my marriage is I would like to be.
> 
> deejov...as far as my self-esteem goes, I will agree that I likely put too much weight on whether certain needs are met or not. My husband not asking me strip for him any longer, or wear lengerie, or taking me to even buy lengerie, probably shouldn't effect my self-esteem. At the same time, I'm not sure that I can entirely help it; a man whose wife consistently withholds sex, when before she seemed to desire him to no end, is likely going to feel a drop in his confidence. It's the same for me.
> 
> Now, I've taken strides to start gaining my self-esteem back completely outside of my husband and what he says or does.
> 
> As for me wanting him to love me in a way that isn't natural...so? He expects the same of me. I can't help or change the ways that I feel loved, and nor can he. Either we will both be willing to step outside of our comfort zones to meet those needs, whether they be natural for us or not, or there won't be a marriage left. I get that other couples may not have this issue, but that doesn't mean that I'm wrong in expecting my needs to be met.
> 
> Besides, these are needs that I _can't_ meet by myself. They require a second person.
> 
> As an aside, he brought me a massive bouquet of red and pink roses yesterday(my favorite flowers) and then took me to get dinner, and then we went to the mall. He wanted to walk around the stores. Had a plan to buy me lengerie, but nothing in the store stood out to me that wasn't too expensive. So he bought me some jewelry.
> 
> I'm feeling better today. These little things have shown me that he's listening to what I've been saying and that he's actually heard me. We had a good chat yesterday. I was able to tell him, frankly, about how I feel, and he didn't get defensive or shut down or grow cold...he genuinely listened and kept reassuring me. We had fun in the mall...we stopped in Barnes and Noble and looked at sex books.  It was great fun. We had some great intimacy last night too...holy cow, is all I will say.
> 
> This is exactly the type of reaction I've been waiting for. I'm hoping that over the next few weeks, we'll see a shift in our marriage. He said he's going to write me the list of his emotional needs and love-busters so I have more of an idea of what I need to do for him. And the books I ordered should be here today or tomorrow. Hopefully they will help too.


So glad to hear things are better!
I did read your other posts, but I find it hard to discuss those issues. I had 3 myself in the past 4 years, one was 2nd term. My self esteem really suffered afterwards. I will say that for a long time, it changed "sex". It was no longer this fun thing, but a means to possibly getting pregnant and another loss. When permanent bc was the final answer, I thought things would change but they did not. I don't know if it still bothers him or is one of his reasons for not being intimate, because he simply doesn't want to talk about the subject. 

I knew that having a child was one of his "needs" to ultimate happiness, and it wasn't meant to be. Testing confirmed DNA defects, he had leukemia as a child and although producing sperm (against the odds) it's likely not viable for life. 

Partly what of I was poking at was that there IS something you can do about not feeling loved or wanted. 

A compromise. I do believe HNHN should also be done along with some affirmations or self esteem building, by both parties. This also helps with resentments that can build up over not getting your needs met over a long period of time.

Validation and celebration of someone who is wonderful, as opposed to being responsible for someone being happy or sad. 

It also gives you a bit of balance. When things are not so rosy in life, the fall from grace is not so far. You are better able to ride over the rough times.


----------



## Created2Write

deejov said:


> So glad to hear things are better!
> I did read your other posts, but I find it hard to discuss those issues. I had 3 myself in the past 4 years, one was 2nd term. My self esteem really suffered afterwards. I will say that for a long time, it changed "sex". It was no longer this fun thing, but a means to possibly getting pregnant and another loss. When permanent bc was the final answer, I thought things would change but they did not. I don't know if it still bothers him or is one of his reasons for not being intimate, because he simply doesn't want to talk about the subject.


That's the thing...when it cam down to the actual sex itself, it's been great. I've got no complaints. It's been more the foreplay. We'd make out for a moment or two, go to the bedroom, we'd make out a little more, strip, he'd immediately finger me, I'd eventually orgasm(or if fingering wasn't working he'd switch to oral...one or two orgasms for me) and then right into intercourse. 

There's no pursuit there...and very little foreplay. I like doing new positions and things, but usually when I'm really aroused...and I don't get fully aroused much before actual intercourse, which makes intercourse somewhat painful. It doesn't take me long to get into it once we've started, but it could be a lot more pleasurable if we took our time a bit more. 

Now, a quicky on lunch break is a different story, of course. But I really want to be invested in sexually. I don't feel like I'm getting that. And I don't think it's the miscarriage. I haven't really communicated this to him up til now, nor have I really thought much of it. I've been so focused on other things, that this has really fallen by the wayside. I think this is more lack of communication, and it's probably my fault.



> I knew that having a child was one of his "needs" to ultimate happiness, and it wasn't meant to be. Testing confirmed DNA defects, he had leukemia as a child and although producing sperm (against the odds) it's likely not viable for life.


I'm sorry.  That sounds awful. 



> Partly what of I was poking at was that there IS something you can do about not feeling loved or wanted.
> 
> A compromise. I do believe HNHN should also be done along with some affirmations or self esteem building, by both parties. This also helps with resentments that can build up over not getting your needs met over a long period of time.
> 
> Validation and celebration of someone who is wonderful, as opposed to being responsible for someone being happy or sad.
> 
> It also gives you a bit of balance. When things are not so rosy in life, the fall from grace is not so far. You are better able to ride over the rough times.


I see what you're saying. I like that idea. It seems like it would help keep things in perspective...that he's not my enemy, even if I'm not getting my needs meet as much as I would like.


----------



## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is kinda harsh...
> 
> This is really tough, it's hard to get a man to be different than his natural way.. even Faithful wife, the things she was craving - that you are ...she says was there in the beginning... it was just some "attitude adjustments" that had to be worked out along the way with 2 strong willed personalities.
> 
> This appears different than her story...as your Husband's father was very unaffectionate it sounds- all his life...he never changed /matured.... wondering how this played out with his Mother.....(some of us are near a carbon copy of our parents ...it's just in the genes)...
> 
> * Did his parents remain married...and if so, was his MOTHER OK with that? Maybe they both kinda lived separate lives and managed to keep it afloat... just curious how you would describe his parents Marriage ??*


Yes, his parents are still married. His mother doesn't talk about much, but if I could guess I would say that she's...content. Not necessarily happy, but not unhappy. She grew up with brothers and no sisters, and has never been(from what I understand) a romantic or affectionately needy person. However, there have been times when my FIL has been...well, a jerk. He's a very stubborn man and rarely admits to his own faults and mistakes. They have, in the past, argued in front of my husband and I, though in the last year and a half seem to be doing much better. 

I would not want to live his parents marriage, though. Unlike his mother, I wouldn't stick around. 



> I'll never agree that every man is the same and all should marry in their late 20's/ 30's either...to get all this PLAY out of their systems...this solely depends on the individual man.


I agree.



> Marrying later could just = a man being more *ingrained* in his video games... bass playing, hanging with guys... ever more bad habits to break when he settles down. .. some get set in their ways.
> 
> I really don't know the answer here though.. I am sorry.


Thanks.  I know this response is late, but I felt it should be addressed, and I'm always blessed to hear from you, SA. Thank you for your post.


----------



## Created2Write

Well, he's reading this thread right now. ((Hi love!)) If you're lucky, you'll get to hear from him soon too.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> Well, he's reading this thread right now. ((Hi love!)) *If you're lucky, you'll get to hear from him soon too*.


Hey, my husband joined this site...when he suggested it one day, I JUMPED! He rarely posts...but the offer meant a lot to me, it's just something else we DO together ....where I could write a book he struggles with a sentence or 2 though ...

Would love to hear from yours - his side .....So wonderful to see that OPENNESS in couples ...on here together...shows they are working towards each other. 

I've whined now & then over wanting a little more from my husband too -never in these areas but on the opposite end of the spectrum - on the "aggressive" front (this has calmed considerably though)... my hormones were acting UP ... Wait till Mid Life ! 



> Yes, his parents are still married. His mother doesn't talk about much, but if I could guess I would say that she's...content. Not necessarily happy, but not unhappy. She grew up with brothers and no sisters, *and has never been(from what I understand) a romantic or affectionately needy person*.


 I kinda assumed this sort of response...or it would have driven her MAD ...

It kinda rubs me the wrong way when I hear others refer to a spouse as an "*affectionately NEEDY person*"... ..I know you don't mean it this way - since you seek more affection yourself....you find it a JOY, an uplift.....some are geared this way naturally and some are not... My husband told me once he likes Clingy and needy - from me (Mushy too).... that keeps us together .... others would think he is whacked. 

He's never showed neediness to me - but he was emotionally hurt in the past when I was less affectionate to him (and more into the kids). Now the tide has turned and it's UPPED something in him... which has been a blessing to us both.  So hope your husband turns this tide as I did...and feels it's sweet benefits every day...

It seems in every couple you come across -if one looks closely....there is some Opposite extreme going on somewhere... as your Mom & Dad were both HIGHLY affectionate towards each other...I remember you sharing this... so you got a double dose here in the genes/ in the environment ...and really....it's a struggle for you ....to just lay this down... 

I wonder how your Husband views THEIR Marital example... Inspiring ...or a little "too much" ?


----------



## turnera

Very impressed that he's willing to read here. That shows a lot of love for you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Welcome, Mr.Created2Write!


----------



## Created2Write

I'm quitting my job working for my Sales Director today. I'm still going to sell Mary Kay, but I'm also going to look for a part time job more nearby. I'm riding the bus three hours to get to her house, working for her for at least five, and then taking a three hour bus ride back home at least twice a week. Meanwhile, my husband and I have very little time together with his work schedule. So, I'm quitting. 

I'm not looking forward to the conversation with her. She's a wonderful person, but I'm worried she's going to try and help find a solution. I've made up my mind...I can't continue to work for her. If I had a car it would be different. The drive wouldn't be half as long. But I don't, and that is the only circumstance under which I would be willing to work for her. Plus, she wants me to work four days of the week next week. I'd hardly see my husband! 

So, I'm quitting. I want my husband much, much more than that job.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Big change...good luck with the quitting conversation. I hate having those.


----------



## turnera

I think that's a really good decision. Your time is worth something and, when you break it down, you're really working for about $2 an hour. 

Tell her you'll see if you can find anyone else looking for a job that you would recommend; that'll help it not be so painful.


----------



## committed4ever

Created2Write said:


> I'm quitting my job working for my Sales Director today. I'm still going to sell Mary Kay, but I'm also going to look for a part time job more nearby. I'm riding the bus three hours to get to her house, working for her for at least five, and then taking a three hour bus ride back home at least twice a week. Meanwhile, my husband and I have very little time together with his work schedule. So, I'm quitting.
> 
> I'm not looking forward to the conversation with her. She's a wonderful person, but I'm worried she's going to try and help find a solution. I've made up my mind...I can't continue to work for her. If I had a car it would be different. The drive wouldn't be half as long. But I don't, and that is the only circumstance under which I would be willing to work for her. Plus, she wants me to work four days of the week next week. I'd hardly see my husband!
> 
> So, I'm quitting. I want my husband much, much more than that job.


Good for you! I'm sure you will be much happier spending some of that time on your marriage and your marriage will be better for it.


----------



## Created2Write

Today has been awful, but not because of my husband. Because of the quitting conversation. I was supposed to work for her today, but the bus schedule was different than I thought it was and I tried calling and texting to let her know I wouldn't be able to make to her city by 9:30(I have a three hour bus ride to her city, and at least that to get back home), but her phone was off and she wasn't getting my messages. Last night my bus was late and I was caught in a downpour of rain Downtown, and I woke up with a headache that turned to the chills and body aches. I waited at the transit center for an hour, waiting to hear from her about whether or not I should still come in to work or not. The last bus to take me back to my city came, and if I didn't take it I would have been stuck there until 4 pm. So, I let her know I was going home and that I didn't feel well. 

She texted me about understanding I was ill, but she needed to know she could count on me being there(even though my not being there wasn't my fault. I thought there was a 6 am bus, but there wasn't. The earliest bus was the one I usually take and I told her so as soon as I knew, but her phone wasn't on until after 9:30, when she thought she'd be picking me up) and now she had to change around her appointments last minute, etc. I told her that I as much as I loved working for her, the bus commute was too much. I needed time to invest in my husband, as well as my MK business, neither of which were getting my best efforts because of how exhausted I was riding the bus at least 12 hours a week.

She hasn't responded yet. 

I care way too much about what other people think about me. This circumstance has shown me that. Even my mom has said over and over that I have done the right thing, I did everything I could do this morning, that as my employer she should have had her phone on _knowing_ I would be traveling earlier than usual and something might come up to make me late, etc. My husband said the same thing, and I still feel wretched about letting her down. I know this was the right decision, I know I did everything I could this morning...I still feel like crap. 

On a better note, my husband made my day yesterday. He sent me the absolute most amazing text message I've ever received. Even winning a million dollars and a publishing contract couldn't have made me feel as good as his message did. It basically said that he believed the success of our lives would be my trophy and crown as it was me who did so much leg work to get this going. Then he thanked me for my work, and said I was virtuous wife. 

Talk about admiration!!!! Even though my back and feet hurt, even though I was cranky and hungry and tired, that message made me feel like Superwoman. That message alone made _all_ of what we've been through more than worth it. I'd go through all of it again, and more, just to hear those words a second time because they mean sooooooooooo much to me. And knowing they came from HIM, the one man in this world that I worship(I know, I know...it's sacreligious...  )...I can't even describe the feeling. He made me cry right then and there.


----------



## committed4ever

Don't worry about bad feelings on quitting the job. They soon go away.


----------



## Sennik

That both of you are able, and even more importantly *willing* to step back, evaluate and act on things to strengthen your marriage not only so relatively early in your marriage but after a terrible loss is an excellent sign and frankly warms my heart.

Keep it up you two, good job :smthumbup:


----------



## Wukar

Created2Write said:


> Well, he's reading this thread right now. ((Hi love!)) If you're lucky, you'll get to hear from him soon too.


Hello love! 
Good evening all, this is C2W's SO. I starting reading this thread yesterday from beginning to end and i will be posting on this thread as i make time.

BTW thank you so much for what you wrote C2W about that text message i sent. I'm really glad to hear/read that it touched you so deeply.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Welcome! And, may I say, I am really really impressed that you would come here. It says a lot about you.


----------



## Created2Write

I just got Harley's _Five Steps to Romantic Love_ workbook, and also ordered a book on WAWs, and the _Love Busters_ book. I was able to identify one main LB that seems to be at the root of my trust issues within my marriage. I'm hoping that _Love Busters_ offers more insight for both of us. 

This weekend we're going to make sure that we spend a good amount of time together. There's a park I want to visit that has some beautiful trails, or so I'm told, and I'm anxious to see them. I know we're going on a date, he just asking asked me out yet, nor do I know where we're going/what we're doing.


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## Faithful Wife

Awesome!

.


----------



## Created2Write

I think we found another recreational activity that we mutually enjoy. He loves massages, but he's super muscular and toned so it's difficult for my petite hands to really give him satisfying massages. Last night, for some reason, I decided to just start singing while I gave him his massages and, not only did it distract me from the soreness of my hands, but it also fulfilled me because I looooove to sing, I'm good at it, and I chose some of my favorite songs. They happen to be songs he doesn't care much for so I don't get to listen to them super often, but with _me_ singing them, he really liked them. He said, when I was done, it was one of the best massages he's ever had from me. And, what do ya know, I got some admiration too!

So we both went to bed very fulfilled and happy.  So today I'm listening to/downloading some more songs for me to learn so I can sing them to him at night when I give him massages.


----------



## Faithful Wife

That's so cool. I love hearing a woman sing (when she can sing, myself, I cannot).

Can he sing, too?

My husband and I have talked about an RC activity of taking singing lessons together so that we could then go do kareoke or just do it at home for fun.

We can't seem to find a voice teacher.

.


----------



## turnera

I think it's adorable that you two find things like this to do. So sweet!

Maybe you could try something like this, to relieve the pressure on your hands:
Vibrassager


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wukar said:


> Hello love!
> Good evening all, this is C2W's SO. I starting reading this thread yesterday from beginning to end and i will be posting on this thread as i make time.
> 
> BTW thank you so much for what you wrote C2W about that text message i sent. I'm really glad to hear/read that it touched you so deeply.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OH Love it - the Husband has arrived...

Just wanted to say....that Text message ROCKED Wukar !
When the wife is happy ~ even sappy for you.... life is full of many rainbows.......she will reward you in many many ways!


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> That's so cool. I love hearing a woman sing (when she can sing, myself, I cannot).
> 
> Can he sing, too?
> 
> My husband and I have talked about an RC activity of taking singing lessons together so that we could then go do kareoke or just do it at home for fun.
> 
> We can't seem to find a voice teacher.
> 
> .


He can sing really well when he's warmed up. He doesn't get a lot of opportunity to sing much. We used to go on long drives during the day/at night when we would sing some of our mutual favorites. We still do that occasionally, but nearly enough for him to get a lot of opportunity in. And same with me. I'm a soprano. I favor the operatic style since I can go super high, but he doesn't care as much for that style so I rarely get a chance to practice. Living in an apartment isn't exactly conducive to practicing opera. Hahaha. 

So that's why I thought I'd sing some songs to him at night while I massage him...I can get my favorites in while also practicing them at the same time. 

I've gone to sing karaoke with him before, though he hasn't sung with me. Even though(I flatter myself) I'm good, I still get super nervous so I don't blame him. 

It's hard to find a singing coach for adults. I've looked to try and get some professional training(never had any), especially as opera is very specific and I'd love to have some technical training. But it's really difficult to find someone who doesn't cost an ovary and a testicle.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I think it's adorable that you two find things like this to do. So sweet!
> 
> Maybe you could try something like this, to relieve the pressure on your hands:
> Vibrassager


Music and singing was a big part of our dating relationship, especially at the beginning. I had a major crush on him and would fight my boss at the time to get off on Tuesday before 6 pm...DH played on the church worship team, and they needed someone to sing vocals. I went more to see him and hear him play his instruments as much as I did to sing. lol. 

I like that idea a lot. I'll look into that as something I can use if I'm extra tired. 

Though, if it vibrates, it make my voice sound weird while I'm singing...lol.


----------



## turnera

You can just get a cheap wooden one at Bed Bath and Beyond for a few bucks, that doesn't vibrate.


----------



## MSP

Created2Write said:


> Though, if it vibrates, it make my voice sound weird while I'm singing...lol.


Vibrato!


----------



## Created2Write

I have a lot of vibrato already. Anymore and it'll sound like I'm singing through a fan. lol.


----------



## committed4ever

Created2Write said:


> I think we found another recreational activity that we mutually enjoy. He loves massages, but he's super muscular and toned so it's difficult for my petite hands to really give him satisfying massages. Last night, for some reason, I decided to just start singing while I gave him his massages and, not only did it distract me from the soreness of my hands, but it also fulfilled me because I looooove to sing, I'm good at it, and I chose some of my favorite songs. They happen to be songs he doesn't care much for so I don't get to listen to them super often, but with _me_ singing them, he really liked them. He said, when I was done, it was one of the best massages he's ever had from me. And, what do ya know, I got some admiration too!
> 
> So we both went to bed very fulfilled and happy.  So today I'm listening to/downloading some more songs for me to learn so I can sing them to him at night when I give him massages.


Sound like you both are having some sensual and intimate fun. SO good for bonding isn't it? 

And singing together is SO delightful. My husband and I harmonize together a lot but he has the much better voice than me. He doesn't like his voice because it is really 1st sopranos almost falsetto but I love it. He thinks it doesn't fit his tall stature. LOL 

Y'all keep it up!


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## Created2Write

Today I'm putting in job applications. Put in three already, and plan to put in more. Saturday Jason and I had a wonderful day. We went to a local park that I hadn't been to before. It was massive, and right on the river. We had so much fun. Then we went home, relaxed, had dinner and played Uno, Yahtzee and Rummy...only we made them drinking games.  We had a ton of fun on Saturday. Personally, I felt incredibly connected...more connected than I've felt to him in a loooong time. It was really wonderful. 

_Love Busters_ arrived over the weekend. We started reading it.


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## Wukar

I loved that you did that. 
I wanted you to come to practice so bad! To answer the world's most obvious question, yes i definitely wanted to show off for you just a little bit. I also wanted to show you that i wanted you around and in my life. It must have worked!


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## Wukar

*Re: Re: His Needs, Her Needs*



Created2Write said:


> I have a lot of vibrato already. Anymore and it'll sound like I'm singing through a fan. lol.


I can attest to that, this girl has a seriously capable set off pipes! 
It makes singing phantom with you that much more fun, even though you can blows me out of the water. Lol


----------



## Wukar

*Re: Re: His Needs, Her Needs*



Created2Write said:


> Today I'm putting in job applications. Put in three already, and plan to put in more. Saturday Jason and I had a wonderful day. We went to a local park that I hadn't been to before. It was massive, and right on the river. We had so much fun. Then we went home, relaxed, had dinner and played Uno, Yahtzee and Rummy...only we made them drinking games.  We had a ton of fun on Saturday. Personally, I felt incredibly connected...more connected than I've felt to him in a loooong time. It was really wonderful.
> 
> _Love Busters_ arrived over the weekend. We started reading it.


Saturday. Was. Awesome. You rock girl. That was probably some of the most fun I've had with you in recent memories


----------



## Created2Write

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! That's so sweet!! I'm really having a moment here. I've got this big cheesy grin on my face. lol.  That's super sweet baby!!! Thank you!!!

He said all of that while I was in my Mary Kay meeting. The meeting went super well, and I signed my first team member, so I was already feeling like I was on cloud nine. Didn't think the night could get any better. And then I saw his posts. 

My heart _was_ full of joy. Now it's overflowing with it. 

<3 And yes, Saturday was AWESOME. We'll have to go there again as soon as we get some more sunshine!


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## committed4ever

Aww that's so GREAT! See I knew you guys have a good thing going! 

Created I know you love you write have you written any song?


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## Created2Write

So, I don't write music. I write poetry sometimes, which, if a specific kind of poetry, can be made into lyrics, but that's not often. I don't play an instrument and don't really understand music enough to write a song. 

DH has written songs before though.


----------



## Created2Write

I have an interview on Thursday. The job won't be easy. I'll be unloading merchandise from trucks into the store. And I'll be working very early hours. But, I like the idea of doing physical work. I need to get in better shape. And I really like the idea of working early...Jason said he might wake up with me and go to the gym before he goes to work. And then, once I get off work, I'll have the whole of the day to get house work done, and have girl time with Mary Kay. 

I'm truly praying that I get the job.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Good luck on the interview!


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## turnera

Good luck!


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## Created2Write

Well, I got a second interview.


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## Faithful Wife

Good job, girl!


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## turnera

Yay!


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## Created2Write

I'm excited. I really want the job.


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## turnera

Even if this job isn't for you, just think how stressed you were just a week ago, to leave the MK lady.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Created2Write said:


> So we both went to bed very fulfilled and happy.  So today I'm listening to/downloading some more songs for me to learn so I can sing them to him at night when I give him massages.


I like the sound of this!
Made me remember when my wife used to sing songs to me years ago.
Sweet memories!


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## Created2Write

I didn't get the job.  I'm bummed. But, I'm still applying to other places. Including fast food chains. (bleh)


----------



## turnera

You'll find one. Hiring was up 195,000 people last month; there's one out there for you. And if you end up with fast food for a short time, well, make the best of it and be the best employee they've ever had. You know they look for people who do more than the least amount required, and that's how people end up running entire restaurants.


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## Created2Write

True. I need a job badly so, even if it's McDonalds, I'll take it. My sis-in-law worked at one for a few years, and they constantly asked her to move up in the company. I'd consider that very strongly if given the opportunity. Cause right now, I'm open to any opportunities I can get. I may not like the Company, but a paycheck is a paycheck. As long as I can work, get paid, go to school and then move up in the company, I'll be satisfied.


----------



## turnera

Whenever I think of fast food, I think of the movie Blind Side. Where the people lived in a mansion...and owned a few Taco Bells. He started out by working in one and worked his way up, I believe.


----------



## Created2Write

So, no word from McDonalds yet. I'm applying to Taco Bell and Wendy's today. 

I also sat down and made a schedule with DH indicating what time we'll wake up each morning, when we'll eat breakfast, when we'll go to the gym, when I'll work on my MK business, when I'll work on my writing and reading, what days I clean what area of the apartment, when we'll go to church, and what days and times we'll have for just him and I. It's color coded and everything and gives us each time to ourselves, time with each other, time in the gym at least four to five days a week(something he desperately wanted), but also gets us in bed in time to have a good nights sleep. Enough is enough. I'm through wishing for the life I want. Now I'm going to GET the life I want. I'm not going to wait until he asks me to wear lingerie, I'm just going to put it on myself. I'm not going to wait until my body magically loses the extra weight, I'm going to burn it off myself. I'm not going to wait until I have the inspiration to write, I'm just going to do it whether I feel like it or not. And I'm not going to wait until I'm "in the mood" to have sex with DH, I'm just going to do him. Like I did last night. 

Yup. It's a new day.


----------



## Created2Write

I got a job! It's at Wendy's, and it's full time. They offered it to me before I left my first interview and, as long as my background check is clear(which it is, of course) then I should start within a couple of weeks.  

I am very excited. This is going to give us quite a bit extra financially every month, and not only will I be able to make my new car payment, but we'll also be able to pay off all of our debts within the next six months and then refinance our car. I am very excited. It's not the ideal job, but I am very thankful for it.


----------



## committed4ever

Created2Write said:


> I got a job! It's at Wendy's, and it's full time. They offered it to me before I left my first interview and, as long as my background check is clear(which it is, of course) then I should start within a couple of weeks.
> 
> I am very excited. This is going to give us quite a bit extra financially every month, and not only will I be able to make my new car payment, but we'll also be able to pay off all of our debts within the next six months and then refinance our car. I am very excited. It's not the ideal job, but I am very thankful for it.


Congrats! I know it feels good to be able to improve your financial picture. 

I'm trying to find a diplomatic way to say this, but I'll just say it. I LOVE your attitude of just wanting to earn money regardless of where. There are some younger members of my family who don't have a pot to piss in and say they can't find a job and when you tell them a fast food chain is hiring they look at you like you got two heads. Then I have a late twenties cousin who him and his wife have manage to buy a home off of a retail job and fast food manager. So life is what you make it. Kudos to you!


----------



## Created2Write

I used to be against fast food, but not now. I looked for work for over a year and never once applied to a fast food chain and, consequently, never got a job. I was actually walking through a retail store today and saw a dress I liked and thought, "I want that!" Then I thought, "In a couple weeks I'll actually be able to buy it!" It was a wonderful feeling, and even though I never saw myself working at Wendy's, I am so, so thankful for this job! I am going to do everything I can to keep it. 

I haven't had new clothes since last summer, and hubby hasn't had new clothes since before then. We're both in desperate need of new shoes(especially hubby), and we have been unable to purchase them. It's a relief to know that now we will be able to buy the things we need, _and_ some things that are extras. 

I am a little worried, though. It's been four years since I was last in a job and I'm concerned about how easily I'll adjust. But, the check in my account will be a massive motivator! I like having new clothes and looking nice, and my wardrobe does NOT represent my age and taste. Or my size. lol. I can hardly fit in any of my pants anymore. So, regardless of how difficult the job is, I'm determined to go above and beyond. 

I'm considering changing my Associates Degree to the Associates of Business, and then transferring to a university and getting a degree in business management...I want this job to be long term(I hate looking for a job), so I might as well make myself as successful in it as I can. 

Anyway, I am very excited about the future!!


----------



## diwali123

Congratulations! 
I wish I had gone into business admin.


----------



## committed4ever

diwali123 said:


> Congratulations!
> I wish I had gone into business admin.


I wish I had gone period! LOL


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Congratulations Created2Write ... :smthumbup:... you'll be downing a lot of those frostys on break... I imagine you'll be handling that cash register ....I always LOVED working with the public... It made the day go fast and it was always interesting, new faces all day long...

One of my 1st Jobs was Kentucky Fried Chicken...I was just 16.. we had the nicest boss, if any chicken was left over, he'd tell us all to take it home...I don't think that was allowed, but it was great !

Wish I had one of these right now >


----------



## Created2Write

Thanks.  I'm pretty jazzed.


----------



## turnera

My first job was a food court job and I still remember it fondly.

I'm really proud of you for looking at this as the opportunity that it is, and a step in the right direction. 

If money was no issue, what would you be doing to fill your days (aside from staying at home)?


----------



## diwali123

My first job was a cashier in a hardware store. It was just to earn money for a school trip to Germany. Once I had the money I quit.


----------



## Created2Write

turnera said:


> My first job was a food court job and I still remember it fondly.
> 
> I'm really proud of you for looking at this as the opportunity that it is, and a step in the right direction.


Thanks.  It took some growing pains, but after not getting a job for a year, I figured I don't really have the right to be picky if I want to be financially prosperous.



> If money was no issue, what would you be doing to fill your days (aside from staying at home)?


Well, I get restless easily so I would have to occupy myself with something. If I didn't have to work, I would definitely pursue higher education...I'd love to get a Masters in Creative Writing while making some money of my own at a job. I still want to do this, writing is my thing...but I also want my degree to help me in my career, and if Wendy's works out, I'd like to advance in the company, and that may require a business administration degree. So, I dunno...

But what I _want_ is to get a Master's in Creative Writing.


----------



## Created2Write

diwali123 said:


> My first job was a cashier in a hardware store. It was just to earn money for a school trip to Germany. Once I had the money I quit.


Travel is something I want to do very much. I want to see the UK *sooooo* much. British literature, British history, British fashions, British food...all of them are major passions of mine, so naturally, I want to see as much of Britain as I can in my lifetime.


----------



## Created2Write

An update on DH and I: Okay, so...it's been a few weeks, but if feels like it's been months. There have been some amazingly good things that have happened, and some not so great things that have happened. 

All in all, I think that DH is trying much more than he ever has. It's still not close to what I need from him on a daily basis, though. He seems to be struggling a lot with admiring me on a daily basis. I'm guessing that the idea just doesn't come into his head until it's late and he realizes that he's forgotten, and of course I'm pretty desperate for his verbal admiration, so it's on my mind all day. Which makes me feel forgotten about. 

This week he forgot to say anything admiring for three days in a row, and it scared the hell out of me. I've been having anxiety all week anyway since this is the point when his efforts dwindle and fall away, and seeing them start to dwindle just makes me feel like this cycle will always be how it is. It's also terrifying because, right now, we only have the evenings together and I might be working mostly evenings with my new job. *sigh* 

He IS trying, though...and it's wonderful to see it. But he's not been very _proactive_ about things. I want to see him make the effort without me having to make it easy for him. I mean, can it even be called effort if the other person is making it as easy as possible? It's confusing. 

He gave me a small list of his emotional needs, and we've gradually been working into our schedule things to do. Having more money will open up doors for us, too. Cause right now that's a pretty big issue with things to do. 

With affection he's doing better, but he hasn't asked me on a date in over a week. Even if we just eat in, and don't go anywhere...it'd be better than not getting asked at all. I've asked how I can help him, and he says he doesn't know. 

We're definitely not through the forest yet. And I need to figure out how to manage my anxiety. What's gonna happen when he realizes that this is never going to be easy? Is he only interested in fighting for this marriage as long as it's easy? 

I believe he has it in him to make me happier than I could ever imagine...I just wish he'd tap into that potential...I'm gonna go do some reading in _Love Buster's_ for a bit. Please, any advice is very welcome. Because I see him trying, and it means the world...but his love account is low, and the deposits tend to be less frequent than the withdrawls, which leaves me feeling anxious, on edge and confused.


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## Wukar

If i have anything to say about we will! 

Since i will not move to the UK i better get you more than a few good fixes of it.

And while we're at it what not ake a peek at Italy and Germany?!


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## Created2Write

Wukar said:


> If i have anything to say about we will!
> 
> Since i will not move to the UK i better get you more than a few good fixes of it.
> 
> And while we're at it what not ake a peek at Italy and Germany?!


 Italy, Germany, Austria, Greece, Switzerland, Norway, New Zealand...

All sound good to me! <3


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## turnera

Created2Write said:


> But what I _want_ is to get a Master's in Creative Writing.


 Then DO that. Please don't waste your life getting a degree for something you don't enjoy. My brother got an accounting degree while he really wanted to be a history teacher, for the money. Regretted it all his life.

And I worked crap jobs for 15 years while I went to night school to get my BA in Writing. I didn't mind those jobs, each one paid better than the last, but it wasn't what I really wanted to be doing, as you know. But I finally got that degree and got to spend 11 years working at my dream job, NASA. And now, 20 years after I got that degree, I'm working at one of the top cancer hospitals in the world, making $80,000/year. 

So you CAN get a degree in what you love and still support your family. Think big!

Oh, and btw, if you love creative writing, look into learning how to write screenplays for movies. They are ALWAYS looking for great scripts and there are lots of ways to get them in front of people.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Then DO that. Please don't waste your life getting a degree for something you don't enjoy. My brother got an accounting degree while he really wanted to be a history teacher, for the money. Regretted it all his life.
> 
> And I worked crap jobs for 15 years while I went to night school to get my BA in Writing. I didn't mind those jobs, each one paid better than the last, but it wasn't what I really wanted to be doing, as you know. But I finally got that degree and got to spend 11 years working at my dream job, NASA. And now, 20 years after I got that degree, I'm working at one of the top cancer hospitals in the world, making $80,000/year.
> 
> So you CAN get a degree in what you love and still support your family. Think big!
> 
> Oh, and btw, if you love creative writing, look into learning how to write screenplays for movies. They are ALWAYS looking for great scripts and there are lots of ways to get them in front of people.


Thanks.  This means SO much. I've considered teaching, but I don't think I'd have the patience. I want to write novels...actually have one written out, it just needs a lot of editing by a more experienced and knowledgable writer...and I'm not there yet. A degree would get me the knowledge and experience and discipline I need to actually write the many stories that are in my head. 

I've known I wanted to be an author since I was in elementary school, just never really pursued it until college.


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## turnera

Writing is one of those things that you really can do without a college degree, IMO. You may want to consider spending your time taking only the creative writing classes, at every nearby college and university, as well as looking into local writing clubs. The kind where you meet and read out loud samples of your writing for others' critique. I've found that such things get you much more knowledge for creative writing than a college degree.


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## Created2Write

Just worked my first shift at Wendy's...I never thought fast food would be _this_ fast paced! The managers said I was picking it up fast, but it felt like I was doing horribly. At least it looked good from their perspective. Whew! I am worn out! lol. But, it feels good to be working and, oddly enough, it feels good to be tired. The work isn't very fulfilling, and it certainly isn't fun, but the management is VERY nice and they're helpful. 

I put in a full eight hours tomorrow, so...here I come! lol. I'm not sure how I'm going to go to school at the same time as this...I may have to forgo my AAOT for now...it's more important that I work than go to school, so I have to gain a bit of cash handling experience and then move on to working in a bank in six months to a year, then I'll do that. The managers at Wendy's work horrible hours...like sixty hours per week and I don't think I could do that. Not until my marriage is more solid. 

But, I'm open to whatever comes. And right now, Wendy's is in my future.


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## Faithful Wife

Yay, employment! Hang in there, honest work is still worth the same dollar as more fluffy work...you will move up or more likely out, soon.

In the meantime, be aware that this will bring new changes in your relationship. New jobs, new homes and babies tend to do that. Not good or bad (when a job), just a change.


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## momtwo4

turnera said:


> Then DO that. Please don't waste your life getting a degree for something you don't enjoy. My brother got an accounting degree while he really wanted to be a history teacher, for the money. Regretted it all his life.


I'm one of those who did pursue what I love. I have my M.A. in English. I've published a few things, but not nearly enough to make a substantial income. I've mainly been teaching writing courses at several colleges in the area. I also teach online. This is adjunct teaching and there are no benefits or guarantees. It is supplemental income. 

Honestly, I don't think I'd get an M.A. in English again. I went into debt to get my degree, and I regret that very much. You don't need a degree to freelance and write novels. I realize my situation is unique. I started having children in my mid-twenties while I was finishing up my degree. We needed health insurance. Someone needed to dedicate time to the babies...

For me, it was very difficult to pursue my career with young children. I probably would have been able to better use my degree if we'd delayed having children until we were in our thirties. I'm 33, and we're done having children. So maybe I'll start seriously writing again in a few years. I realize now more than ever that I can't have it all (at least not all at once). 

I DO agree with turnera that you shouldn't pursue something you don't enjoy. I just think it's important to exercise caution and to have a game-plan. This is especially true if you go into debt to get any degree!

Just thought I'd share. Best wishes in your endeavors!


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## Created2Write

Thanks everyone. FW, you're right...it IS a change. Right now it feels like both good and bad...good because I'm gaining work experience that I can transfer to another job, and because I'm out and moving instead of sitting at home watching The Tudors for the fifteenth time, and because I'm making money so we can pay off debts, and prepare to move to the country in a few months. But it feels bad too because it's a new skill I have to learn, it's a stressful environment and I hate making mistakes because I always beat myself up, and it's eating into my time with my husband. But, realistically, in a week or so things will feel much less stressful because I'll know how to do my job much better, I'll get used to the schedule and know how to plan out my free time so that DH and I still get 15-20 hours together, and I'll learn how not to beat myself up just because I made some mistakes on my first day. 

I took one of those pens for white boards and wrote affirmations on my mirror last night so that I'd see them in the morning when I dressed for work; things like, "I AM a fast learner", or "I AM a hard and diligent worker" or "I AM dedicated to my job, even when the work is difficult". Things like that to keep me motivated. And, I'm sure, once the money starts coming in, I'll feel better about working fast food. 

All in all, six months isn't a long time. January seems like a long ways away, but it's not really. I just have to keep myself positive and adjust to the shock of going from a stagnant life to working five days a week.


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## turnera

Remember this: store owners have SUCH a hard time finding people who really want to work, who have good work ethics, who actually show up when they're supposed to, that they really don't care if you make honest mistakes or take a little longer to learn. They're just so grateful that you have good work ethics, they're glad to have you. So give yourself a break, ok?


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## Wukar

*Re: Re: His Needs, Her Needs*



Created2Write said:


> An update on DH and I: Okay, so...it's been a few weeks, but if feels like it's been months. There have been some amazingly good things that have happened, and some not so great things that have happened.
> 
> All in all, I think that DH is trying much more than he ever has. It's still not close to what I need from him on a daily basis, though. He seems to be struggling a lot with admiring me on a daily basis. I'm guessing that the idea just doesn't come into his head until it's late and he realizes that he's forgotten, and of course I'm pretty desperate for his verbal admiration, so it's on my mind all day. Which makes me feel forgotten about.
> 
> This week he forgot to say anything admiring for three days in a row, and it scared the hell out of me. I've been having anxiety all week anyway since this is the point when his efforts dwindle and fall away, and seeing them start to dwindle just makes me feel like this cycle will always be how it is. It's also terrifying because, right now, we only have the evenings together and I might be working mostly evenings with my new job. *sigh*
> 
> He IS trying, though...and it's wonderful to see it. But he's not been very _proactive_ about things. I want to see him make the effort without me having to make it easy for him. I mean, can it even be called effort if the other person is making it as easy as possible? It's confusing.
> 
> He gave me a small list of his emotional needs, and we've gradually been working into our schedule things to do. Having more money will open up doors for us, too. Cause right now that's a pretty big issue with things to do.
> 
> With affection he's doing better, but he hasn't asked me on a date in over a week. Even if we just eat in, and don't go anywhere...it'd be better than not getting asked at all. I've asked how I can help him, and he says he doesn't know.
> 
> We're definitely not through the forest yet. And I need to figure out how to manage my anxiety. What's gonna happen when he realizes that this is never going to be easy? Is he only interested in fighting for this marriage as long as it's easy?
> 
> I believe he has it in him to make me happier than I could ever imagine...I just wish he'd tap into that potential...I'm gonna go do some reading in _Love Buster's_ for a bit. Please, any advice is very welcome. Because I see him trying, and it means the world...but his love account is low, and the deposits tend to be less frequent than the withdrawls, which leaves me feeling anxious, on edge and confused.


I understand your anxiety about seeing something that looks like trouble. Please know that it was nothing intentional. 
one important difference about our current situation is that i brought up that short-coming to you long before you told me of your dissatisfaction in it. 
Those last few days are not the beginning of the end of progress, they are a speedbump in the road to happiness and fulfillment. 

I apologize if i come off a bit cheesy but im just speaking my mind and yeah, sometimes I'm a little cheesy


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Wukar said:* I understand your anxiety about seeing something that looks like trouble. Please know that it was nothing intentional.
> one important difference about our current situation is that i brought up that short-coming to you long before you told me of your dissatisfaction in it.
> Those last few days are not the beginning of the end of progress, they are a speedbump in the road to happiness and fulfillment.
> 
> I apologize if i come off a bit cheesy but im just speaking my mind and yeah, sometimes I'm a little cheesy.


I just wanted to say....I LIKE your attitude .... I think it's wonderful that you allow your wife to express herself as freely as she does, talking about these things -even if it seems the same recurring issue....you don't appear to be harsh or jump on her saying ...."this is enough....this is how I am....deal with it woman"..(or such an attitude).... which I think many men WOULD do that- after a time.... and such advice has gone forth to Created to not push... to accept what is.... 

It's just refreshing to see HOW you respond... a little cheesy... with a "please KNOW (my darling) this was not intentional"... and a giving apology. 

My husband IS the same way...he wants me to fully express myself....to NOT hold back...and I can't tell you HOW MUCH THAT MEANS TO A WOMAN. There are certain things I want...and he has struggled with at times (it would be something easy for many OTHER MEN...but yet a little difficult for him)....funny how different people are [email protected]#$% We all have something we need to push ourselves towards/ improve on..and that's OK! 

But like you treat your wife....he is always ALWAYS ALWAYS open to HEAR ME OUT...he genuinely wants my happiness...this is GOLDEN...this will always BE something to work with....so long as you keep this attitude Wukar... you 2 have a good chance of getting there......hand in hand...and looking back someday- seeing how it all came to be. 

Never let that die...


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## Faithful Wife

Welcome, Wukar! We (heart) your wife so I bet we'll dig you, too.

Created, I am totally jealous because I would love if my H would post here but I know he never will.


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## Created2Write

I love you, babe. I would respond in more detail but I'm fairly tipsy at the moment and would rather *ahem* focus on other things.  lol.

SA and FW... thank you. I had a great day at work today. My manager said I was doing fantastic more than once. So, all in all a good day. Time for intimacy with my favorite man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Created2Write

So, day three of the new job has come and gone. I like the fast paced environment, but it has been difficult coping with a floating schedule. Next week is going to suck. Big time. I won't hardly see DH at all, as I will be working six days next week, and only on two of them will I get off before 7pm. 

But, good news: after thirty days there, I could be up for a promotion. On my second day I got to talk to the district manager and she said if, in 30 days, I still want to be promoted, and if my manager thinks I've done a good job, then we can start moving forward with my promotion. So, that's exciting! The position I'm considering is 40 hours a week, at 4 days a week, so ten hours a day. I like that. It's appealing to me. I don't think I'll work much more than 40 hours, and I'll have more time off for myself. 

So, yeah! Today and tomorrow are short shifts, and then I have Saturday and Sunday off.  I'm feeling content. Sore, and my feet freaking HURT like crazy, but content. I never imagined myself in fast food, but the work is easy and the opportunity to move up is encouraging. I've been told everyday by my manager and assistant managers that I'm doing fantastic...learning fast and doing well with customers. Makes me feel on top of the world to hear that.  

So, we'll see what life brings. I like the idea of security in a consistent job. I miss DH a lot, but that's also good. Plus, I think DH is gaining more respect for me. He listens to how my days go, and I tell him what I'm considering for the future and I think he's proud of the choices I'm making. And the fact that I'm working probably helps how he sees me, which I totally understand. 

And, who would have thought, a hard days work actually makes me MORE horny than when I have a bunch of built up energy? Score!!! lol.


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## Faithful Wife

"....a hard days work actually makes me MORE horny than when I have a bunch of built up energy? Score!!"


Right there with ya, sistah.


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## Wukar

Score is right!


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## Wukar

You are absolutely right on this C2dub.
I fully respected you as a delightful and capable woman before but now you are using those skills that i have always have seen in you. 

You are told literally on a daily basis how fantastic you are doing by those over you, and it sounds as though you are EASILY outpacing your coworkers! Heck freakin yes i am proud!


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## Created2Write

:corkysm60::circle::woohoo::bounce:


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## Created2Write

Last day of work for the week, and then it's nothing but DH and I all weekend! Next week I start on Monday with a ten hour shift(BLLLEEEHHH), and work six days a week. Yuck.


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## turnera

Everyone has to pay their dues.


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## ET1SSJonota

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just wanted to say..... I think it's wonderful that you allow your wife to express herself as freely as she does, talking about these things -even if it seems the same recurring issue....you don't appear to be harsh or jump on her saying ...."this is enough....this is how I am....deal with it woman"..(or such an attitude).... which I think many men WOULD do that- after a time.... and such advice has gone forth to Created to not push...


Wow. I don't think I ever thought about how important and troubling making statements like that could be. I'm certainly guilty of them, but I didn't think they would be taken in such a way (or opposite of not making them, as it were). This should be on a list somewhere for "how not to be a jackass husband". 

Sorry for the sidetrack. Just had to say thanks SA for mentioning that (and C2W/Wukar for the example).


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## Created2Write

I.HATE.FAST.FOOD. 

This is a horrible job. I understand why so many people refuse to work fast food. I'm currently looking for another job to replace this one, but can't quit until I have another job open up. 

This really is horrible. I almost quit twice, it's so bad.


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## turnera

What happened?


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## diwali123

I'm sorry. It's easier to find a new job when you already have one. I hope you find something quickly!


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## Faithful Wife

Girl - I hear ya. Have worked lots of really crappy jobs.

Just keep your chin up and put your resume out there! You'll keep moving up. Girls like you always do. Smart go-getters can't be stopped and will always get hired.


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## Created2Write

The manager, while he's overall a nice guy, doesn't understand that people have lives outside of Wendy's. He takes the job way too seriously, so much so that he got in trouble this week over the schedules he gives to people. I don't know what disciplinary action took place, but he thought he was going to get fired over it. According to one of the other employees, we're not supposed to work as many ten hour shifts as he gives to us. 

On top of that, all but one of the managers act like their job is the end all be all of jobs. Only one of the managers actually gets that his job isn't that great. The work itself isn't hard, and if the management were more upbeat and nice it wouldn't be a bad place to work. But most of them are just snobby and...other words I'd rather not use. One of the assistant managers was just promoted and now she's being a total b!tch to everyone, and only because she can. She leaves Saturday and is already abusing this by going home before her shift is over, giving other people crap when they don't have anything to do. Like, it was seven thirty at night...the store is empty, there's no one coming through the drive thru and there hasn't been for a while. The guys who make the burgers and stuff have already done everything they need to, and so she points at them and says, "That's fine, I'll do your work" and then points at the other guy "and I'll do your work too. And I'll take your paycheck for it." 

UGH. Worst job I've ever had. 

I'm going tomorrow to a kind of interview for FedEx. It's a part time job, really early mornings...but at least I'd see my husband every evening. There's also a job with Aflac that would be normal business hours, and I'd be home with DH every night, and I have an interview next week. So...hopefully something will pan out soon. I can't take much more of Wendy's.


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## Faithful Wife

FedEx is a great company to work for! Aflac would be great, too!

Soon Wendy's will be in your past and one day, you'll be glad that you saw behind the scenes of a place like this. Because one day, you are going to be supervising a staff and you will now have experienced what it is like to have a crappy supervisor, and you will do it much differently.


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## Created2Write

My manager is STILL putting us on ten hour shifts! He's not even sticking to the hours he and I agreed on when he hired me. DH is really, really ill right now, I'm an emotional mess like you wouldn't believe on top of also being slightly sick, because DH has missed three days of work we're BARELY going to be able to pay our bills, and I hate my job more than I can express...the working conditions are unbearable. 

I'm about to have a breakdown. A complete and total breakdown. I have never been so emotionally unstable in my life. I pray to God that I get the job with FedEx or Aflac. I know it probably sounds like I'm being a drama queen right now, but things are just...not good. DH and I haven't been improving and right now it feels like the world is falling apart and I'm trapped in a job I hate, but desperately need.


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## turnera

C2W, just slow down. You can do this. You can work a crappy job to put food on the table; that's what being a grownup means. Millions and millions of people do it every day. It's not forever. And when you start moving up to better jobs, you'll appreciate having learned what a not-fun job is like so you appreciate the better ones. Look at it like cramming for a final - a short period of crappy hard work, but worth it in the end.


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## Created2Write

I got a job offer with the call center! It's full time, paid training for three weeks, with a $0.50 raise after training is complete, and the chance for a $1000.00 bonus every month based on my customer satisfaction. I interviewed with a Recruiting Manager who said he thought I would be perfect for the job, and got me a second interview with a Hiring Manager in the same day(today). The Hiring Manager strongly recommended me for the job...so much so that the lady who actually did the hiring said he gave me one of the highest scores in my interview that she has seen him to anyone. 

I QUIT WENDY'S!!!! Oh my gosh, it feels so good to be free, and to know that I will have a better paying job with a set schedule. 

I start August 5th.


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## committed4ever

Congratulations!

That's one part of my job that is assigned on a daily business (working the call center). I'm assigned to it quite a bit and a couple month ago I got a $3k quarterly bonus for the triple of most calls, highest rating, and getting most people to take the after call survey.

You can make a lot of money in incentive but you definitely have to approach it with a postive attitude that you don't care how much BS a customer give you, you will remain professional. And that every caller I can placate can add up for some nice dollars in my pocket!

Make that money, girl!


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## Created2Write

I start my new job on Monday. I'm very excited. DH says he's proud of me for going out and getting interviews, and then nailing this job right away. We're currently planning on moving out of our apartment into a three bedroom house. So, busy, busy, busy. 

Emotionally I think we're getting back on track. Still not where either of us needs to be, but we're getting there. It still feels, to me, like an uphill battle. But the last few days we've had some _ ridiculously amazing sex_, and I do feel closer to him. Hopefully we'll just get better and better.


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## turnera

Good time for my suggestion: hold a 'state of the marriage' meeting once a week, for an hour.That hour, you're completely honest about how you feel, things that are bothering you, etc. the rest of the week, work really hard to just enjoy each other's company. And date! Always get out and do fun things!


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## Created2Write

That's a fantastic idea. And now that we'll have more income, it will be easier to get out and date each other. I'm looking forward to that a very great deal.


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## turnera

Remember, there are tons of ways to 'date' without spending a dime - picnics, walks, ride bikes, garden, window shop, read to each other, board games, jigsaw puzzles, etc.


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> Remember, there are tons of ways to 'date' without spending a dime - picnics, walks, ride bikes, garden, window shop, read to each other, board games, jigsaw puzzles, etc.


You're right. And I love window shopping, reading to him, playing games, taking walks...DH isn't into picnics as much, though I love them. But anything that gets us out and doing something, or keeps us in but doing something, is bound to fulfill both of us. 

Our anniversary is this Thursday. I can't believe it's been almost four years....the last few days I've felt extremely melancholy, but I think it's just my brain equating the horrible job with Wendy's with this new job, even though they will be entirely different. 

On the agenda for today: cleaning out the three bedroom house we'll be moving into so we can move in soon, and then just spending time together today.


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## Created2Write

First day over! Everything went great.


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## Faithful Wife

:smthumbup:


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## Created2Write

Our 4th anniversary is tomorrow.  He called me today and said I needed to be dolled up by 5:45 pm tomorrow. 

 I'm excited to see what he has in store!


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## Caribbean Man

Happy Anniversary to you and your husband dear!

God's blessings to both of you and I think both of you would share many, many , many more!


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## committed4ever

Created2Write said:


> Our 4th anniversary is tomorrow.  He called me today and said I needed to be dolled up by 5:45 pm tomorrow.
> 
> I'm excited to see what he has in store!


Happy Anniversary! And enjoy your night out!


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## Faithful Wife

My 4th anniversary was last week! Hurrah!

(We've been together much longer, but the actual wedding anniversaries are the most fun to celebrate!)


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## Coffee Amore

Happy Anniversary, C2W! Enjoy yourselves and have a good evening.


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## Created2Write

So, update: the Customer Service job I got, got me an even better job that I'm scheduled to start on October 1st, making a whole three dollars more an hour. 

Today, DH and I go to the gym and workout, and it was awesome. I ask the Club Manager if they're hiring, just out of curiosity, and they are, and for an entry level position job. She tells me to email her my resume, and that she can tell I'm really personable...she says that the people who've been applying have been awful and she's felt like no one would get the job. I emailed her my resume tonight, she said she forwarded it to her boss and put in a good word for me. 

I'm currently attempting to save money to be a certified personal trainer, so this would be just the kind of foot in the door I need! It would cut my commute and what I pay for gas in half, which would be amazing. So, I'm _really_ hoping this one turns out! Gah! I'd work 7 days a week for this job!

Anyway, just had to let my TAM peeps know.


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## heartsbeating

Well done for asking! And all the best with your application!

I'm late to the thread, but happy anniversary wishes to you both for your recent celebration.


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## turnera

That's great. Just remember, though, that gym jobs are notorious for paying next to nothing. You need to do a spreadsheet on the gas expense, your gym expense (I assume they'd waive at least your fee, if not your husband's?) against the loss in $3/hour.


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## Created2Write

Yup, already covered.  DH and I did the math at what I would make if they only paid me minimum wage, against my car payment and the cost of the gas, and I would make enough to pay for both. They said that they pay an hourly wage, and then commission, so at the very least I'll have a little extra left over. I didn't even think to ask about a discount on our gym rate, but if they do offer discounts for employees, then that will be a little extra to, and every little bit counts. 

DH said that, while it would be nice to have more money coming in, he thinks this is the best option to get me where I want to be and, as long as he doesn't have to pay for the car or my gas(which he won't, even if I make the least amount possible), that will be hundreds left over from his own check. And then, once I'm actually a certified personal trainer, I'll be making a lot more. That will be the most I've ever made in my life. 

It won't be easy, I know that much. It's going to take hard work, determination and the willingness to sacrifice the little luxuries for a while. But if it means getting my foot into my dream career, I'll wear the same shoes and wear the same clothes for as long as I can make them last! I'll do date nights at home playing Halo! As long as we both can eat, pay our bills and get to our jobs, we can make the rest pan out.


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## turnera

I worked full time and went to night school to get my Bachelors. It took 15 years, didn't start my 'career' until I was 32. But 20 years later, I'm about as high as one can get in my career with a prestigious job. Getting that degree (or certification in your case) is definitely worth the sacrifice and the way to go. Good luck!


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## Created2Write

turnera said:


> I worked full time and went to night school to get my Bachelors. It took 15 years, didn't start my 'career' until I was 32. But 20 years later, I'm about as high as one can get in my career with a prestigious job. Getting that degree (or certification in your case) is definitely worth the sacrifice and the way to go. Good luck!


Dang! 15 years! That is some admirable dedication! I really want to finish my Associates degree, and without student loans(DH is gonna need those), so once I have my certification I'm gonna work on finishing my degree. And the gym is right across the street from the community college, too! 

Thanks so much turnera! You're a voice of reason in my state of excitement.


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## turnera

You're good people, C2W. I can tell you'll achieve what you want. And your husband is lovely, too. Best of luck.


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