# Am I being unreasonable or controlling?



## Amiblind (Aug 5, 2012)

First post here and it's gonna be a long one. I just need some outside perspective from people that don't know either myself or my fiancé. 

To begin, I do have some baggage and I freely acknowledge it. My first marriage ended due to the ex wife hooking up with a close friend while I was out of town. They now have an on again off again dysfunctional relationship that's constantly in my face because I have a child with the ex. I don't hate her and I'm not even mad anymore, it's just a frequent reminder that I'm sure affects my feelings on my current situation.

The woman I'm engaged to now is in most ways a completely wonderful woman. We love each other, the sex is amazing, we get along and are comparable in 99% of our lives. We have similar hobbies (things we like doing together) and each have our own interests as well.

For the last couple of months (we've been together 1.5 years) we've had to be LD because of career issues. My job pays extremely well and I've accumulated enough money to live for several years, if necessary, on my savings at a middle-class level. Ive offered to just quit and move back to where she's at while looking for a replacement but she doesn't agree. She also doesn't want to quit her job and move here and look for work. She wants me to find a job the requires less hours and less travel in a 3rd location and when I do, we'll live together there. This is weird to me, but fine, I'm looking. 

Here is where the problem I'm having comes into play. I fly out to spend time with her as often as I can. Because of the nature of my job I'll go see her for several weeks at a time and work remotely. I do have to come back here, though. If I keep my job, anyway. While I'm visiting, she rarely wants to go out and prefers that when we do, it's just the two of us. I try to encourage her that it would be fun for us to go out with her friends while I'm there. She'll rarely agree to this and when we DO, her friends always want to go to "meat market" type clubs where they can play the field. 

Early in the relationship, I was out of town, and she told me she was going for a girl night out. This girls night out was described to me as a bunch of girls dancing together and hanging out together. I told her to have fun and to text me when he made it home so I'd know she was safe but otherwise have a ball. She did as I asked and I thought all was well. A few months later, we were talking to a mutual friend and it came out that the girls night out consisted of going to clubs and dancing with other men. I don't mean salsa dancing or anything, I mean "club dancing". After we were alone, I confronted her about the fact that she, while not overtly lying, was somewhat dishonest by omission. When she would talk about the night between the time of the occurance and the conversation in which her GF let the cat out of the bag, she would continue to imply that it was girls only. She asked what she was supposed to do when I was out of town and she wanted to dance. I told her that:

1. We have mutual male friends who I'd be fine with her dancing with. They also go clubbing a lot and at some of the same clubs.

2. I thought accepting dances and hanging out with strange men was disrespectful.

3. The main issue was the dishonesty. If she didn't feel she'd done anything wrong, she wouldn't have felt the need to be dishonest.

I ended by asking if it was ok for me to go out to clubs and dance with strange women while I was out of town. She asked why I would want to. I told her that if it was ok for her, it was ok for me too. If going clubbing is an ok activity, it's ok for both of us. She told me that she wouldn't feel comfortable with that. I told her that was an ok feeling to have and that I didn't feel comfortable with it either. We (I thought) agreed.

Last night I'm out of town again. Her sister visits and she tells me she's going to take her sister out to dinner to hang out and catch up. I, again, tell her to have a great time. She texts me later and tells me that her sister wanted to go dancing and she told me the club name. Its a total meat market with a DJ and super loud music that ya cant just hang out and talk at. I responded with, "Really?". She didn't text back for 3 hours and then just to tell me the music at this place was awesome. Then no more texts for another 2-3 hours. I finally text her to say I'm gonna have to go to bed and we would talk tomorrow. She responds 30 minutes later that they'd just got home and she just now got my text then said good night. I texted back that I was still awake if she wanted to call. She responded that her sister was asleep and she didn't want to wake her up with a phone conversation. I just didn't respond.

Ok, I go out wih buddies too. We go to bars and sit around and have drinks then go home. I don't go to clubs to get all up on women. When I do go out, I let her know where I'm going and then call at the end of the night. The reason I call is to put her mind at ease that the night out is really over. Would be kinda obvious that I was still out with bar noise in the background.

We've not talked this morning yet. Am I wrong that I feel lied to and betrayed a little? Is it wrong that I kinda feel like she was lying about really being home when she sent the text? I think it would be stupid to end an engagement over dancing with other people but the dishonesty and double standard are really really bothering me. should I just go out clubbing one night to a meat market to show her how it feels? That seems immature. 

We're not teenagers here. I'm 30 and she's 26. Need some advice, people.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

She's young and still wants to party as evidenced by her behavior. Are you sure this is someone who is even ready for marriage? From what I'm reading it sounds like you're setting yourself up to be cheated on again. She sees nothing wrong with dancing with other guys when you're not around. She also is already lying by ommission. These are HUGE red flag and would not be okay with me.


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## Amiblind (Aug 5, 2012)

I've not had a chance to talk to her about last night yet. I'm going to ask her straight up about what went on at the club. I just don't know how much credence to give to her answer considering last time.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Talk is cheap. I wouldn't waste my time asking. You already know the answer.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> She asked what she was supposed to do when I was out of town and she wanted to have *other dudes rubbing themselves all over her*


There, i fixed it for you... 

I really think you need to ask yourself what is dancing for humans. It's not a primary need, it sucks as exercise and 9/10 people aren't really good at it. So, where does dancing come in for humans?

IMO, its a fitness evaluation. The moves within a dancing pair are flags for reproductive fitness. There is no other viable explanation for moving your body like you're having a seizure, expending energy and time you could be employing otherwise in more productive activities. Yet, dance is transcultural for our species and it usually demands the presence and observation of both sexes within a set of rules.

At one time in european culture it was the only time where young men and women could pair up and actually touch each other. And distance would be observed very strictly because every older man and woman knew what the dance was about. 

Personally i don't know of any place other than lesbian bars where the women dance alone. You may want to think on that next time she tries to blindsight you. 

And this:




> Ive offered to just quit and move back to where she's at while looking for a replacement but she doesn't agree.


She doesn't want you around? She wants someone to call boyfriend while she goes out clubbing with other guys? Maybe searching for something better?

And:



> While I'm visiting, she rarely wants to go out and prefers that when we do, it's just the two of us. I try to encourage her that it would be fun for us to go out with her friends while I'm there. She'll rarely agree to this and when we DO, her friends always want to go to "meat market" type clubs where they can play the field.


She doesn't want you around her friends. Because then you are going to see first hand how they behave and get an easy picture on how she behaves when you're not around. That's why she doesn't want to MIX it. She can play the adorable girlfriend act with you while she can go wild when you're not there. 

You're thinking of marrying this woman? Do you think she will not have the same exact issues after you sign a piece of paper giving her half your assets? Really?

Tell you what, i'm betting that if you dump her right now she will be so devastated that she will have another guy to call boyfriend within a month and quite possibly a lot less than that.


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## cloudwithleggs (Oct 13, 2011)

Amiblind said:


> For the last couple of months (we've been together 1.5 years) we've had to be LD because of career issues. My job pays extremely well and I've accumulated enough money to live for several years, if necessary, on my savings at a middle-class level. Ive offered to just quit and move back to where she's at while looking for a replacement but she doesn't agree. She also doesn't want to quit her job and move here and look for work. She wants me to find a job the requires less hours and less travel in a 3rd location and when I do, we'll live together there. This is weird to me, but fine, I'm looking.


That right there for me means there is something not quite right, you say weird.

And you leaving your job so you can be together, maybe she just thought it was an offer with no weight, because why would you have not already done it, also the time frame that you have put on being together is missing, so what is the time frame?

If it is going to be short it is understandable.

As for the clubbing, she should be able to do what she likes it is her choice, you can't choose her behaviour but you can tell her how it make you feels, but that is not permission for you to make her feel guilty for enjoying herself.

She is not being unfaithful, i think you both need a good discussion where you emit your fears, but i think you have already tried doing that, what did she agree to?

And you full well know bars are the classic place to pick up women  

You have to have trust, accept it.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> You have to have trust, *accept it.*


He really doesn't...


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I have yet to understand why some women lie about night outs, about how long they're staying and with who they are. 
It's funny how she doesn't want other girls dancing with you Amiblind, but when it comes to her she can dance with whoever she wants .
What a crappy double standard! 

She's telling half truths and half truth is still a lie.
Her behavior and attitude towards you and nights out should be a warning sign to you.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

cloudwithleggs said:


> You have to have trust, accept it.


This is code for: You have to be blind, deaf and cope with it.


I think this is the worst advice I have read recently on here.


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## LastUnicorn (Jul 10, 2012)

Whoa put down the burning pitch and examine the whole landscape first.
If clubs, bars & going to places like this aren't OK with either of you then you two need to talk honestly about being uncomfortable. She probably views your drinks out at a bar with guys as her version of dancing with her girls. Double standard? No, she is trusting you.

Costa posted that only lesbians dance alone  not true. I dance alone. If a guy jigs up and dances in the immediate area more power to him, a dance isn't a roll in the hay. The problem here as I see it isn't dancing, its a lack of trust. That's what needs to be addressed I think.

She is calling and texting you before during and after she goes. You can't really ask more than that. If all her friends are out having fun and you are away for weeks at a time you are asking her to sit at home bored and lonely while you are somewhere else out drinking in environments where yes you too may be ravished? Just because there is no dancing doesnt mean there arent women there unless you are going to male only clubs. She's trusting you too right?

Right now could be a great opportunity to strengthen your relationship. Honestly talk to her again and lay out your feelings of insecurity and concern. Tell her how much she means to you. If you get all hamhock weilding caveman on her it probably won't yield the desired results, just reinforce the message 'I don't trust you'. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cloud,
There were 3 outright deceptions/or big red flags and 1 blatantly disrespectful event described in his very first post - and your advice is for him to: just trust her?

This is a woman who is going to try and keep him faithful while she does whatever she wants. 




cloudwithleggs said:


> That right there for me means there is something not quite right, you say weird.
> 
> And you leaving your job so you can be together, maybe she just thought it was an offer with no weight, because why would you have not already done it, also the time frame that you have put on being together is missing, so what is the time frame?
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Amiblind said:


> 3. The main issue was the dishonesty. If she didn't feel she'd done anything wrong, she wouldn't have felt the need to be dishonest.


There’s an old saying “Half a truth is the worse type of lie” Half-truth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. She told you a half truth.



The reason you feel so bad is because you’ve discovered you’ve been betrayed. You now know for a fact, a given, that you’ve been betrayed. But it gets very much worse because when you asked her for her honesty, what you actually got was yet more half truths and outright lies. You are being well played by her and it’s mind fecking. Makes you feel like you’re going crazy.



You can chase her as much as you want for a confession that contains remorse for deceiving you and being unfaithful and disloyal to you.


But I doubt you’ll ever get that confession and far less any remorse for her behaviour. People who behave in the way she does are either 1) pathological liars, 2) compulsive liars 3) habitual liars or all three.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Just ask yourself the question “Do I expect her to tell me the truth when I ask her a question?”. If your answer is no, end the relationship because without trust in it has only one direction and that contains a lot of heartache and pain for you.


You could “fitness test” her. Tell her you no longer trust her and see what her response is. If she gives up on you and ends the relationship that will be because she now knows for a fact that she’ll no longer be able to get away with her lies and deceits.

If she tells you she’s sorry she betrayed you and wants to do the work to regain your trust, then give her a chance to do just that.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She isn't comfortable with you going to clubs and dancing with girls there because she knows why people go to the clubs, and it's entirely to meet members of the opposite sex. The music is loud, the places are scummy with the lights on, and women get constantly hit on by guys looking to take them home for the night.

She's fine with her going because she is in control. She gets to control how far the guys hands get to go, and she get to decide where things go. 

But she knows what's what in clubs and she knows you would be surrounded by guys and girls who's only point of being there is to hookup.

She knows, but she will never admit it.

Her sister wanted to go to the club to meet men. What was she doing while her sister was dancing ? Sitting by herself alone? No - she was doing her best to look hot to get guys to come approach her and see if they can get lucky that night. 

I'm not saying she's cheating. I am saying she's living the life of a single person who's looking for massive attention and to shop for a guy. Essentially she's saying so long as she doesn't actually cheat physically, it's ok for her to go shopping for another guy.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> If you get all hamhock weilding caveman on her it probably won't yield the desired results, just reinforce the message 'I don't trust you'.


So, not wanting his woman to place herself in a spot where she will get hit on and dance with other guys is being a caveman?

What about a woman not wanting her man in clubs dancing around with other? Is she a cavewoman? She must be, or this is a sexist double standard isn't it?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

cloudwithleggs said:


> That right there for me means there is something not quite right, you say weird.
> 
> And you leaving your job so you can be together, maybe she just thought it was an offer with no weight, because why would you have not already done it, also the time frame that you have put on being together is missing, so what is the time frame?
> 
> ...


There is no reason for a woman who is married or soon to be married to go to a meat market club with dudes drooling all over her just to "have fun". 

OP really think long and hard about marrying this woman if she refuses to knock off the teenager style behavior.


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## Amiblind (Aug 5, 2012)

I just want to make sure what the general consensus is here. 

I basically have 3 choices:

A.) Break the relationship off completely.

B.) Confront her again and ask her to change her behavior (an ultimatum) while at the same time taking steps to verify that she actually has (let's not mince words - I'm talking spying).

C.) Live with it.

I don't think there's any credible advice here advocating "C". I wouldn't be willing to live with it anyway, I was mainly just checking to make sure I wasn't being "low self esteem guy". That's a worry considering my past relationship experience.

What I'm asking at this point is, does anyone here advocate "B" or are all of you saying I'd be better off ending it completely?


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## Jojara (Aug 1, 2012)

It sounds like this is a dealbreaker for you. Everybody has them. I dont think spying promotes honesty, however. Tell it like it is....make it black and white (your ultimatum)...and see where things shake out.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> What I'm asking at this point is, does anyone here advocate "B" or are all of you saying I'd be better off ending it completely?


Up to you mate... She has lied to you before. But if you want to give her another chance go ahead. My prognostic is that she will probably blow you out of the water and dump you. Or she will lie to you and as soon you drop your guard off she goes clubbing again. But if you try it at least you won't get accused of being impulsive.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Amiblind said:


> I just want to make sure what the general consensus is here.
> 
> I basically have 3 choices:
> 
> ...


My very long term marriage imploded over a half truth, it was the catalyst that eventually brought it down. I knew the whole truth but no matter how I tried, how many chances I gave her I just couldn’t get it out of my wife. It literally drove me nuts and I had a nervous breakdown over it. I just couldn’t understand why after 4 decades together she just wouldn’t be totally honest with me.


Now after getting towards three years apart I have a good understanding of just how many half truths she was telling me and over what period of time in order to stay with me. But she was using and abusing me and I ended up feeling massively betrayed. It’s not necessarily the half truths, lies and deceits, denials (or however they’re termed) that does the real damage, it’s the betrayal that does that.


The really strange thing is what she told her half truth about was no big deal to me, not a problem. The fact that she sat right next to me as she told her half truth was. And when I found out the whole truth a few days later and she denied, blame shifted etc. was as well. But the most significant thing was that I felt massively betrayed.




It just depends how serious you are about her. I spied on my wife after we separated. Doing so uncovered a whole load of betrayal and that’s prevented me from attempting any type of reconciliation or responding to her carrots she puts out now and then.

I now know as much as the whole truth I need to know and because of that I’m a peaceful and contented man. I’d recommend the same approach to anyone, if in doubt spy.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

You've got serious red flags. Take it from someone who was recently in your very same (close) shoes. 

How you deal with this and how she responds will tell you what to do.

First off, she lied. This nonsense about "not wanting to wake her sister" is nonsense. She didn't call because she was still at the bar. I'd bet my next paycheck on it.

She lied about dancing with guys the first time. 

Also a big flag that she won't go out with friends and you at the same time. 

I, like you, see that "if there is no reason to lie, why lie?" The lie itself, while there may be nothing at the core of it, creates serious doubts as to "why". Maybe there's nothing there, maybe there is. But, the point is, you can't know that without going full blown "snoop mode", and even then you may not know. It is disrespectful for her to put you in that position. It shows where her priorities are at, and they're not with creating a good relationship with you.

I recently had a blow out with my W over this. She now "gets it" I believe. Time will tell. She's gotten her "final warning" on this. And I KNOW nothing happened the time she lied. But, I'll simply not tolerate it. The lie itself is sufficient to me to go "nuclear" on her azz and put her on notice. I don't care that it was a "white lie" or "half truth" and nothing serious was being hidden or covered up. And if she's doing something she think I may not be happy about, she better take steps to NOT DO IT if she thinks I don't want it instead of lying to me about it. Either that, or grow a pair of boobs, and have it out with me if it's that important to her. We'll decide together what we are both okay with and go from there. But the lies and unilateral decisions that affect us both? NO! "Woman up" and either tell the truth, or talk to me about it and see if we can compromise, if it's warranted. Or just tell me up front "I'm doing it anyway", and then I'll decide if that is worth "walking" over.

For me, if she wants the trust and latitude to go out and do these things, I better know the whole truth, all the time, about all things. If she can't do that, then I don't trust her to go out with friends. If I can't trust that, we don't have the kind of relationship I want, and I'll move on. I refuse to have to be "on guard" all the time. 

I don't go for this "white lie" bullchit. I'll trust because it is earned. I'll not give it where it's not.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

That's the stuff right there Donny... There are not many things more poisonous to a relationship than lies.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Best post I've read on here in a while Donny. 100% right on. I want to be in a relationship with a WOMAN, not a teenage girl. I'm not interested in acting like 'Daddy' to an adult.


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