# Why would anyone want to be married to someone who they have to give a polygraph to.



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I read about this on other boards like it is a great success if their WS passes. It is too depressing for words. Talk about settling for the very least for yourself. Why would anyone settle for so little? Can you imagine telling someone, one day you will need to have this person you are about to date take polygraph, because they will have lied and abused your trust that much? Do you think they would want to date them let alone marry them? Yet people decide to try to spend the rest of their lives with people who abuse them this much. Other people encourage this, disgusting. What have we come to in society that people in these situations are not encouraged and helped to get out of them? It is a profound disgrace. :crying:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I would never spend time with someone I thought should take a polygraph, nor would I spend time with someone who wanted me to take one

I see no point in staying in a relationship without trust. Aside from that I do not believe that polygraphs are reliable.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

My $0.02. It nominally proves that the WS is at least now telling the truth (in as much as you can believe a poly). It also gives them reassurance that TT has stopped (especially if the questions are broad enough, like were there more APs than A, B and C and did PIV happen).

I think that one main thing holding many/most BS back is they don't know what they don't know AND they know they don't know. Passing a poly more or less means they know everything. Maybe not all the details, but the main things.

At this point they can start to figure out if they can R or not, etc. I takes them away for what if x, y or z, to can I live with what the WS did. Gives them some knowledge, which in turn gives them power.

If you haven't been there, maybe you won't understand the power of it. Once cheated on, you really shouldn't trust anything your WS says that you can't verify. Some stuff you can't verify, or it would be really hard to do. Poly may get you there.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

naiveonedave said:


> My $0.02. It nominally proves that the WS is at least now telling the truth (in as much as you can believe a poly). It also gives them reassurance that TT has stopped (especially if the questions are broad enough, like were there more APs than A, B and C and did PIV happen).
> 
> I think that one main thing holding many/most BS back is they don't know what they don't know AND they know they don't know. Passing a poly more or less means they know everything. Maybe not all the details, but the main things.
> 
> ...


I get what it is for but I think it's really reality, common sense, and logic holding the BS back and not TT, and rightfully so. Reality is, no one should stay with someone who could degrade you in such a horrible way. You know who normally take poly's criminals and ex-cons. It's a shame that a polygraph is encouraged as a way to move forward.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

On a purely practical note it is very easy to fool a polygraph if you understand how they work.The original ones worked simply on body temperature,respiration and blood pressure e.g. If you were lying you would start to get warmer and begin to sweat which would lower your skins electrical resistance,then you would breathe heavier and you blood pressure would rise.This is on the same principle that getting an electric shock while wet or standing in water is far more dangerous than if you were dry.The more modern ones work on brain waves but are basically the same,they may use EECG or MRI scanners in extreme cases but they can be fooled too.If you are capable of getting yourself angry just by thinking about something or someone then you can fool any polygraph.Also if you simply give yes or no answers you don't give the operator enough to go on.
You may get the parking lot confession but that's about it.
But I fully agree with you, if you feel you need to polygraph your partner then I would just say adios.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Lol, too much time on SI?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Well, it would be weird for me to try and poly someone I didn't know ...


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

naiveonedave said:


> My $0.02. It nominally proves that the WS is at least now telling the truth (in as much as you can believe a poly). It also gives them reassurance that TT has stopped (especially if the questions are broad enough, like were there more APs than A, B and C and did PIV happen).
> 
> I think that one main thing holding many/most BS back is they don't know what they don't know AND they know they don't know. Passing a poly more or less means they know everything. Maybe not all the details, but the main things.
> 
> ...


Exactly. How can you make a decision to try and forgive and stay with a WS if you do not know or are unsure of what you are forgiving?

Does a BS make a decision to divorce based on suppositions? Probably not.

Does a BS make a decision to work on the marriage if they are in the dark about what the WS has done, how many times, how long it went on, who is/was AP? I could not do that.

A polygraph helps with making a decision based on facts, not suppositions or lies.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

I laugh every time I see polygraph tests recommended here. They are junk science. If you get to that point, what is left to save? Plus, cheaters are accomplished liars. They've been practicing on you for a long time. I wouldn't bet $5 on the accuracy of the results.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If I recommend a poly, it's because the BS needs a slap in the face and to be convinced their spouse IS a liar. That said, how many of those of you who are saying you'd NEVER stay with someone under these circumstances have been cheated on? If you have, did you have a truly remorseful spouse?

This is just another way for you guys to spout off about how you'd NEVER stay with a cheater. Frankly it's getting kinda old. We get it - you're far far above those of us poor peons who have stayed with a cheater. You are so much better than us that we pale in your shadow.

:allhail:


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

They are merely used as a way to help rebuild trust when it has been broken and both parties have chosen to reconcile. While you may not be the kind of person that would walk away after a betrayal, no matter which end of it you were on, many couples don't always want to write it off or cut their losses, so I say all the power to them. Like you, I personally wouldn't likely find myself in a situation where I would ever want the basis of trust dependent on a polygraph, but nobody is perfect and in relationships you sometimes just have to figure out what things work, so I wouldn't judge the quality of anyone elses relationship on whether one or the other subjected their spouse to a polygraph.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I like the "threat" of a poly as a tool more than the poly itself. You may be able to get a last minute confession by a potential WS.

But I agree with your overall premise, if you need to get to the point of hooking your spouse up to a machine, it may be time to call it a day.

As I suffer from some mild OCD, the results wouldn't mean much to me. Did he/she trick the machine? Was it broken? Can I trust the results? Were there other questions I should have asked? I would still be at square one, with no better piece of mind.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

A poly is good for a) shock value, b) the parking lot confession, and c) ...

...actually, that's it.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

They don't. People are just so afraid of change they think something will eventually change how they feel. Once you have that initial Inception, it never goes away.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Here is the person I have decided to spend the rest of my life and share everything with. Oh and they I also had to have take a polygraph to prove that they are truthful about how, and how many times they stabbed me in the back. Sounds like the basis for a great marriage.

I say for the person who is willing to accept this kind of life, get them help.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> If I recommend a poly, it's because the BS needs a slap in the face and to be convinced their spouse IS a liar. That said, how many of those of you who are saying you'd NEVER stay with someone under these circumstances have been cheated on? If you have, did you have a truly remorseful spouse?
> 
> This is just another way for you guys to spout off about how you'd NEVER stay with a cheater. Frankly it's getting kinda old. We get it - you're far far above those of us poor peons who have stayed with a cheater. You are so much better than us that we pale in your shadow.
> 
> :allhail:


I am not talking about your run of the mill cheater I am talking about someone who lied to you over and over to the point that you needed to pay someone to test them like a common criminal. Any decent person can do better then that, I don't care what your history.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Why would anyone want to be married to someone who they have to give a polygraph to...?

Because to some people, largely those who let fear of the unknown and/or fear of change rule their lives, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't"


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Because sometimes the bs is actually just paranoid and has low self esteem and the alleged WS is actually not wayward


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Here is the person I have decided to spend the rest of my life and share everything with. Oh and they I also had to have take a polygraph to prove that they are truthful about how, and how many times they stabbed me in the back. Sounds like the basis for a great marriage.
> 
> I say for the person who is willing to accept this kind of life, get them help.



Verified honesty and truthfulness using a poly {or the threat of a poly} isn't the "basis for a great marriage" but it can be the starting point or foundation of a recovery process which then may or may not lead to a great recovery and later a great marriage.

A desperate former wayward spouse willing to subject themselves to such a test {degrading as it is} is also a demonstration of humility, shame and repentance. A willingness to do whatever it takes to demonstrate honesty can be reassuring to a unsure betrayed spouses considering reconciliation. They are obviously now aware their word is no good and that their betrayed spouse would be a fool to believe them so they WILLINGLY submit to a poly to prove that are now telling the truth.

Trying to fake or fool the polygrapher is a fool's game when your marriage that you're so desperate to save you're willing to take a poly in the first place is on the line ~~ just tell the truth ~ all of it and you've got no need to fool or trick the polygrapher at all.

That said, I prefer to have the betrayed spouses I help snoop out as much of the truth as they can get themselves so they don't have to rely on their wayward spouse to tell them anything or everything. If I suggest a poly it's almost exclusively to a betrayed wife dealing with a wayward husband's past affair that can't be snooped and such husband has lived an independent lifestyle for years {like he travelled extensively for work}. Discussions about or submission to a polygraph are often necessary to get them to come clean about everything with the understanding that honesty is the foundation of recovery, telling all the truth and getting the poly over with will actually be a relief to them {waywards often become new persons once they dump the burden of maintaining lies} and it's the only way I can or will help them rebuild their marriages. 9 out of 10 times the actual polygraph isn't even necessary or the betrayed spouse backs off the plan when they realize they may be asked to submit to a couple of questions too. The polygrapher is already there so why not get all the truth out there. Often waywards aren't the only persons holding onto some hurtful secrets and I like to gauge the betrayed spouse's level of honesty by throwing out that any polygraph may be a chance for them both to gain clarity and honesty from each other. 

Agree with Hope1964 that this is just another thread bashing cheaters and another angle trying to convince us how great divorce is.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

browser said:


> Why would anyone want to be married to someone who they have to give a polygraph to...?
> 
> Because to some people, largely those who let fear of the unknown and/or fear of change rule their lives, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't"


Generally, they {the betrayed spouses} generally DON'T want to be married to their wayward spouse at the time a polygraph comes up and the polygraph is a tool the wayward spouse hopes to utilize to demonstrate they are now being honest and desperately hoping their betrayed spouse will change their mind and give them a chance at reconciliation.

Many posts tell betrayed spouses to watch closely what their {former} wayward spouse does and ignore what they say. ACTUALLY taking the polygraph is one way a wayward spouse can DEMONSTRATE through actions, not words, their sincere intention to REALLY undertake an honest recovery and that they follow through doing whatever it takes to work on the marriage.


A year or two down the road of recovery there is no difference between the pool of recovering couples that utilized a polygraph and those that did not. Polygraphs are just a convenient tool. It doesn't rebuild trust all by itself. Only time and consistency actually rebuild trust.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I think a polygraph is one way to find out if "one drunken kiss" was actually twenty fully-lucid blowjobs. The latter might be dealbreaker, the former not so much. For me, once the dealbreaker threshold was reached, I wouldn't need a polygraph to find out if there was more. Better to spend the money on an attorney.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Verified honesty and truthfulness using a poly {or the threat of a poly} isn't the "basis for a great marriage" but it can be the starting point or foundation of a recovery process which then may or may not lead to a great recovery and later a great marriage.
> 
> A desperate former wayward spouse willing to subject themselves to such a test {degrading as it is} is also a demonstration of humility, shame and repentance. A willingness to do whatever it takes to demonstrate honesty can be reassuring to a unsure betrayed spouses considering reconciliation. They are obviously now aware their word is no good and that their betrayed spouse would be a fool to believe them so they WILLINGLY submit to a poly to prove that are now telling the truth.
> 
> ...


Let me break it to you, if someone lies to you to the point where you have to hire someone who normally normally test criminals to test your SO then you are never going to have a great marriage. EVER. Nope not with that power and abuse discrepancy and the only way you going to think you have one is if you are delusional. It's like trying to stay married to a repentant rapist. The WW may be a new person but to the person they lied to they are always in the back of their mind the person who hurt them the most in life. What you are talking advocating is a kin to Stockholm syndrome. It's not healthy and will never be healthy for the BS. What is in the best interest of the WS shouldn't even be considered at that point. Do we worry about the the guy who put bruises all over his wife's face?

No different then if you husband beats a wife to the point of putting her in the hospital. There are some things you can't and shouldn't try to recover from because the person doing the abuse has disqualified themselves as marriage material. Society and us as people trying to help them should trying to help BS stand up and get away from their abuser. Not actively encouraging them to go back to them. 

The boards and anyone on them recommending even the possibility of trying to stay together when there is this kind of abuse is doing a morally WRONG thing. Many times it is out of the thought process that divorce devalues marriage. Nothing devalues marriage more then when people see someone staying in a marriage when they have been terribly and repeatably abused by their spouse. It makes people not want to get married. It makes marriage into a sham. It also shows an example of a marriage contract that gave someone destroys another persons soul and get away with it. (What a great advertisement for marriage!) No wonder so many don't want to get married now a days. How terribly misguided this marriage at all cost thought process it. 

Divorce sucks, staying with someone who lied enough to you that you can't tell which way is up is monstrous. In this case divorce is a blessing. Anyone who advocates avoiding divorce at all cost whether for religious or any other reasons should be ashamed of themselves.

If you advocate anyone staying in this situation you may mean well but you are not "helping" anyone.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

I couldn't even ask a partner to take a poly with a straight face. 

Trust in a relationship is overrated, though. You should never get yourself into any situation where you rely on the integrity of another individual. Always keep your radar on.


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## weltschmerz (Feb 18, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> If I recommend a poly, it's because the BS needs a slap in the face and to be convinced their spouse IS a liar. That said, how many of those of you who are saying you'd NEVER stay with someone under these circumstances have been cheated on? If you have, did you have a truly remorseful spouse?
> 
> This is just another way for you guys to spout off about how you'd NEVER stay with a cheater. Frankly it's getting kinda old. We get it - you're far far above those of us poor peons who have stayed with a cheater. You are so much better than us that we pale in your shadow.
> 
> :allhail:


I am personally incensed and not just because I'm attempting to reconcile my marriage to a woman who had an "emotional" affair but also met the OM and did not move forward physically, if the results of the polygraph test that I demanded were any indication. I did it in part because I knew it would not be easy on her after I'd made it plenty clear that our marriage was on its last leg and that failure was not an option. As Gus mentioned, the parking lot confession, the stark image of your relationship ending and the extreme stress of the preceding days is what works in its favour. It sends out a clear message - If you love me you can't take me for granted anymore. I can give you a first-hand account of just how fidgety and stressed my wife was in the days leading up to the test. It wasn't easy seeing her worried but I was also perversely happy that she was getting a taste of the stress and worry that I had in the previous weeks and months. Yeah.

The name lie detector is a misnomer because it isn't a machine that tells you facts on an absolute scale but rather measures your responses to lies by comparing your responses to absolute truths. I put my faith in an imperfect machine/system just like I put my faith in an imperfect human not unlike myself.

I love the virtue signalling that goes on with the threads started with a "Why would anyone want to...?". 

Short answer to the question in the title - I don't ****ing know why I had her do a polygraph but she took it and the results convinced me and until I find out otherwise I am going to put my faith in the system and in her. Bully for you that you lot are stronger and stick to your ideals. I'm just a simple man who wants to try his best to keep his family together. I don't know why my wife wants to stay with a person who she had to give a polygraph or if she indeed wants to stay but at the moment I don't particularly care


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Sad to say, but by the time that rank suspicion rears its ugly head, that even with the polygraph examiners "exonerating report" on the WS, doubt will still be cast!

Just the mere suggestion of impropriety can often more than mitigate whatever the truth actually is!*


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

I wish you the best, weltschmerz. Seriously. I still wish I could have kept my family together and I'm 5 years post-D, but now that it's gone, I have a different perspective. Reconciling spouses should probably avoid reading this forum.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Let me break it to you, if someone lies to you to the point where you have to hire someone who normally normally test criminals to test your SO then you are never going to have a great marriage. EVER. Nope not with that power and abuse discrepancy and the only way you going to think you have one is if you are delusional. It's like trying to stay married to a repentant rapist. The WW may be a new person but to the person they lied to they are always in the back of their mind the person who hurt them the most in life. What you are talking advocating is a kin to Stockholm syndrome. It's not healthy and will never be healthy for the BS. What is in the best interest of the WS shouldn't even be considered at that point. Do we worry about the the guy who put bruises all over his wife's face?
> 
> No different then if you husband beats a wife to the point of putting her in the hospital. There are some things you can't and shouldn't try to recover from because the person doing the abuse has disqualified themselves as marriage material. Society and us as people trying to help them should trying to help BS stand up and get away from their abuser. Not actively encouraging them to go back to them.
> 
> ...


Nice recovery-denial rant.

I don't advocate avoiding divorce at all cost to anyone. I've "helped" probably an equal number of betrayed spouses through the divorce process as the recovery process. 

Yes, divorce sucks and God hates divorce but He has compassion for the betrayed spouse and provides a biblical "out" of marriage based upon adultery. This is a choice the betrayed spouse may choose to exercise or not. It is absolutely moral to help a betrayed spouse make that choice fully aware that sometimes individuals find happiness and fulfillment after divorce and others see their marriages recover and thrive after infidelity. I seek to help couples successfully down a path towards one or the other in a timely proactive manner versus being stuck somewhere in the middle. 


If you don't like marriage - don't get married.
If you don't like recovery - don't recover
A poster choosing recovery or divorce doesn't validate or invalidate my choices. 


My wife's affair over 20 years ago doesn't define me, her or our relationship. It's only the worst thing that ever happened to me because I haven't experienced much misfortune in life {yet}. The whole nightmare {for both of us} was consistent with and the result of a long line of un-Godly choices by both my wife and I. We thought we knew better than God. I had much to repent for, too; and, responsibility for my side of the street to account for. I'm proud of our marriage today and I'd no sooner throw my wife away than cut off my own leg. I may have had the right to divorce her for her adultery but our children, God and a host of angels rejoice that she repented and I choose not to harden my heart towards her and forgave her. She hasn't "abused" me since, nor I her.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Let me break it to you, if someone lies to you to the point where you have to hire someone who normally normally test criminals to test your SO then you are never going to have a great marriage. EVER. Nope not with that power and abuse discrepancy and the only way you going to think you have one is if you are delusional. It's like trying to stay married to a repentant rapist. The WW may be a new person but to the person they lied to they are always in the back of their mind the person who hurt them the most in life. What you are talking advocating is a kin to Stockholm syndrome. It's not healthy and will never be healthy for the BS. What is in the best interest of the WS shouldn't even be considered at that point. Do we worry about the the guy who put bruises all over his wife's face?
> 
> No different then if you husband beats a wife to the point of putting her in the hospital. There are some things you can't and shouldn't try to recover from because the person doing the abuse has disqualified themselves as marriage material. Society and us as people trying to help them should trying to help BS stand up and get away from their abuser. Not actively encouraging them to go back to them.
> 
> ...




Bro, what's the point of this thread? 

Why do you care if someone stays with a cheater? I don't get how it affects your life. I'm genuinely curious. 


-Miss Independent (formally known as Spinster)


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

For me, it's less about the polygraph itself or the results, and more about the reaction you get from requesting it. 

The reaction usually says it all. 

Or, to Gus' point, the parking lot confession does.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

either you have the stones to face reality and stay in the game or you don't.

what people do in order to help them reconcile or move on is up to them. suggesting that it is immoral to advise them on their chosen paths, or to provide them with enough information for them to choose a path, is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. 

what is immoral is telling someone that they are somehow weak or pathetic because they dont think or act the way someone else does. 

@sokillme, criminals are not the only ones who have to take polygraphs. I have to take them, and its not because i have done anything wrong. 

why do you keep trying to convince people that there is something wrong for wanting to or choosing to reconcile? that they are weak or pathetic? does it offend you that some people can reconcile and actually be happy?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Because they love them and want closure? 

Amongst other reasons?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

OnTheRocks said:


> I laugh every time I see polygraph tests recommended here. They are junk science. If you get to that point, what is left to save? Plus, cheaters are accomplished liars. They've been practicing on you for a long time. I wouldn't bet $5 on the accuracy of the results.


I think more than the 'science' of a poly is the intimidation factor involved. For the most part, your average Joe has never taken one, and if he or she has been lying their face off about their cheating ways and are told they have an appt for a poly in 3 days, sometimes they sing like a canary. 

But no, I would never stay with anyone who disrespected me SO much that I had to go to a polygraph expert just to try to get the truth out of his worthless ass. I'd be SO long gone.

And I agree, I find it terribly pitiful when a BS posts about how their cheater passed a polygraph. Then again, it's even *MORE* pitiful when a BS stays with a cheater who didn't pass a poly and they're STILL trying to 'reconcile' with the loser.

That's just the epitome of desperate.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I think more than the 'science' of a poly is the intimidation factor involved. For the most part, your average Joe has never taken one, and if he or she has been lying their face off about their cheating ways and are told they have an appt for a poly in 3 days, sometimes they sing like a canary.
> 
> But no, I would never stay with anyone who disrespected me SO much that I had to go to a polygraph expert just to try to get the truth out of his worthless ass. I'd be SO long gone.
> 
> ...


polygraphs read biometrics. nothing else. they look for changes in biometrics, which can be caused by thought alone. 

recently, i took one and was letting my mind idle, waiting for the next question. in doing so, i suddenly realized that i had not exchanged my old body armor plates for the new ones, and only had about 60 hours to get back to my home state and exchange them before i deployed. that caused me to experience a sudden spike of anxiety. "****, i still need to exchange my plates!". it was one of those things that really mattered to me, so it caused me anxiety.

it messes with the test. polygraphs really cannot determine of someone is lying if they feel no guilt or anxiety in connection with the lie they are telling. most people, however, experience anxiety when they are lying. they are taught not to lie, so lying is not a normal thing. its not natural to them. 

when it comes to someone rewriting history, it is entirely possible for them to actually believe the lies they tell themselves. they look for evidence to back it up. they see it everywhere. but, the one thing they still usually have an issue with is lying about things that they have done. hence why i will always suggest questions that address behavior rather than feelings. 

"did you do this on this date, with this person, at this location," etc.


i can not speak for everyone, but as for myself, i dont need my wife, akinaura. i dont need her to be nice to me. i dont need her to cooperate with me. i dont really need anything from her. i find enjoyment in the struggle with her. i find enjoyment in seeing her grow as a result of my own actions. i chose to reconcile with her because i get something out of it. i dont think any less of her for her actions in the past, and i wont think any less of her for her actions now or in the future. 

she gives me something that i cannot get alone. i could get it with anyone else on the planet, but since i have her already, ill get it from her. 

i am going to build a legacy with this woman. as long as i am able to influence her behavior, she IS my legacy. 

i want to leave a good one.

i wont toss her aside because i have decided to be who i am. so ill make her life as miserable or as joyful as she makes mine. i love the struggle and i love the rewards.

regardless, ill always be happy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> either you have the stones to face reality and stay in the game or you don't.
> 
> what people do in order to help them reconcile or move on is up to them. suggesting that it is immoral to advise them on their chosen paths, or to provide them with enough information for them to choose a path, is one of the dumbest things i have ever heard.
> 
> ...


Obviously I mention criminals because in this context it's same. 



> why do you keep trying to convince people that there is something wrong for wanting to or choosing to reconcile? that they are weak or pathetic? does it offend you that some people can reconcile and actually be happy?


I think since the happy are probably about 001% it is much better to encourage people to leave, the people who leave are about 99% happy. 

Because it is the moral thing to do. It has nothing to do with being weak it has to do with settling for the lowest possible type of person in your life as your partner no less. Everyone should strive for better. All you have to do is read SI to see this 99% of the people who reconcile do it because of fear, and this is only encouraged by misguided people on there, many who also reconciled because of the same fear. Then they suffer for years mostly the rest of their lives. I hope anyone waffling will read these posts and draw some strength from them. YOUR LIFE WILL BE SO MUCH BETTER IF YOU LEAVE! 

It's remarkable after the polygraph for instance, every post is about now there is a framework to build trust. Are these posters kidding. Like the person who was lying to you over and over again just weeks before is now trusted to never lie again, because they passed a poly, when they were absolute back into a corner and couldn't lie anymore. Like they can't and won't just start lying all over again. Lying is in their nature, it's what they do. What is the basis to say that there is a framework? This advice is just stupid and that that is the advice people are giving. The polygraph is celebrated as some sort of success. YOU ARE MARRIED TO SOMEONE WHO LIED TO YOU TO THE POINT THAT YOU NEED A MACHINE TO SEE WHAT WAS TRUE AND WHAT WERE LIES! There is not success in that, it's a tragedy. This should be common sense. 

It's like encouraging the person, who was stolen from, to let the person who steals back in there house because they were caught and gave back the stuff. Yet this is what passes for good advice. All this when the person who has taken the poly has displayed the most despicable lack of character. News flash character doesn't change over night. Most of the time it doesn't really change at all. Nope, they finally after they were backed into a wall came clean, so all is good now, now you have your foundation. How can anyone encourage this in good conscience?

If a person is willing to lie that much it's in their nature, and just because they were busted doesn't mean their nature has changed. People encouraging someone to trust a person like that should be ashamed. 

I am going to keep posting this over and over because I hope people will read this and see the truth. Get out get away from someone who has such a complete lack of character. Don't base your life and your future on them. You will suffer with them for the rest of your life, and in the end what do you get? A person who could look you in the eye and say they love you, and then spit at you behind your back. A person who is a proven liar, and will most likely lie to you again. A person who probably has no idea how to live an authentic life and will take a lifetime to learn using you as their test environment. And to do it you will have to subjugate your soul to some extent because you know deep down in your heart that you are settling. This is part of why you are in so much pain even years later, because you have given up control of your life to fear. Because you have given your agency to someone who abused you. 

There is so much better our there for you but you have to be brave and leave.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I get what it is for but I think it's really reality, common sense, and logic holding the BS back and not TT, and rightfully so. Reality is, no one should stay with someone who could degrade you in such a horrible way. You know who normally take poly's criminals and ex-cons. It's a shame that a polygraph is encouraged as a way to move forward.


I disagree. It can be lack of information. 

It is a tool to help get you out of infidelity. If you new it went PA or not may help you decide how to move forward. Like any advice here, take what works for you and toss the rest. I personally don't see why a poly is any worse than: bugging your WS's car, key logging their computer or DNA testing kids. All are nominally not stuff you would do to your best friend, but when infidelity happens, the gloves need to come off.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

naiveonedave said:


> I disagree. It can be lack of information.
> 
> It is a tool to help get you out of infidelity. If you new it went PA or not may help you decide how to move forward. Like any advice here, take what works for you and toss the rest. I personally don't see why a poly is any worse than: bugging your WS's car, key logging their computer or DNA testing kids. All are nominally not stuff you would do to your best friend, but when infidelity happens, the gloves need to come off.


This is another great one that is just not factual, if you stay married you are never out of infidelity. It is a part of your marriage forever. It actually becomes the defining moment of your marriage and a lot of your relationship has to account for it. In a healthy marriage, this is not the case. Again read the posts of people 5, 10, 25 years out. It will always be mentioned, it will always be thought of every anniversary, if your kid is cheated on, when you see movies where infidelity is part of the story or hear about friends that were cheated on. There is no getting out of infidelity if you stay in the relationship where there is infidelity. 

People always advise to get out of infidelity but never tell the truth that the only way to get out of infidelity is to leave the partner who cheated.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

sokillme said:


> This is another great one that is just not factual, if you stay married you are never out of infidelity. It is a part of your marriage forever. It actually becomes the defining moment of your marriage and a lot of your relationship has to account for it. In a healthy marriage, this is not the case. Again read the posts of people 5, 10, 25 years out. It will always be mentioned, it will always be thought of every anniversary, if your kid is cheated on, when you see movies where infidelity is part of the story or hear about friends that were cheated on. There is no getting out of infidelity if you stay in the relationship where there is infidelity.
> 
> People always advise to get out of infidelity but never tell the truth that the only way to get out of infidelity is to leave the partner who cheated.


so cheaters never change their stripes, got it. I disagree.

Also, getting the knowledge 'can' provide enough to make someone D, which is obviously the only course you are willing to accept. the guy who can't prove it was PA, and PA is a deal breaker, for example.

I read on here plenty, there are some that reconcile and the pain goes away.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

naiveonedave said:


> I disagree. It can be lack of information.
> 
> It is a tool to help get you out of infidelity. If you new it went PA or not may help you decide how to move forward. Like any advice here, take what works for you and toss the rest. I personally don't see why a poly is any worse than: bugging your WS's car, key logging their computer or DNA testing kids. All are nominally not stuff you would do to your best friend, but when infidelity happens, the gloves need to come off.


It's a matter of degree. Someone who VARs a car or keylogs a computer or even goes so far as to DNA test the kids may have strong suspicions but also acknowledge it could be all in their head (although probably a longshot at best).

Once you've gotten to the point that you don't trust your partner- to the point that a polygraph becomes the best option to determine if they're lying- then there's nothing left to save.

My opinion of course, I have never been in such a position and I hope that in the unlikely event it ever happens I would be strong enough to kick the highly suspected cheater/liar to the curb and not try to "save the relationship because of love and the need for closure".



naiveonedave said:


> so cheaters never change their stripes, got it. I disagree.
> 
> Also, getting the knowledge 'can' provide enough to make someone D, which is obviously the only course you are willing to accept. the guy who can't prove it was PA, and PA is a deal breaker, for example.
> 
> I read on here plenty, there are some that reconcile and the pain goes away.


The pain may "go away" more likely it's "deeply buried" but regardless, complete trust can never be regained.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I put a VAR and keylogger in the same category as a polygraph. If I find one, I'm gone. 

The reason is simple: none of these can prove something didn't happen, or won't happen in the future. All they can do is indicate that you were not caught *this* time. So they can never repair trust. 


Imagine you had good reason to believe your spouse was cheating, but didn't have solid evidence. If they passed a polygraph would you completely trust them in the future, or would you keep in the back of your mind the idea that the tests are not prefect and maybe they just didn't get caught? 




browser said:


> It's a matter of degree. Someone who VARs a car or keylogs a computer or even goes so far as to DNA test the kids may have strong suspicions but also acknowledge it could be all in their head (although probably a longshot at best).
> 
> Once you've gotten to the point that you don't trust your partner- to the point that a polygraph becomes the best option to determine if they're lying- then there's nothing left to save.
> 
> ...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

naiveonedave said:


> so cheaters never change their stripes, got it. I disagree.
> 
> Also, getting the knowledge 'can' provide enough to make someone D, which is obviously the only course you are willing to accept. the guy who can't prove it was PA, and PA is a deal breaker, for example.
> 
> I read on here plenty, there are some that reconcile and the pain goes away.


Even if they change their stripes you are still subjecting yourself to spend every day of your life with someone who horribly abused you. To do that you must dampen your soul and it's bad for you as a person. This is not a healthy choice.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is another great one that is just not factual, if you stay married you are never out of infidelity. It is a part of your marriage forever. It actually becomes the defining moment of your marriage and a lot of your relationship has to account for it. In a healthy marriage, this is not the case. Again read the posts of people 5, 10, 25 years out. It will always be mentioned, it will always be thought of every anniversary, if your kid is cheated on, when you see movies where infidelity is part of the story or hear about friends that were cheated on. There is no getting out of infidelity if you stay in the relationship where there is infidelity.
> 
> People always advise to get out of infidelity but never tell the truth that the only way to get out of infidelity is to leave the partner who cheated.


WOW ... that's some seriously "UNCOMFORTABLE" TRUTH. When I first read it, I hit the "like" button, and then it hit me ... I don't "like" it, as a matter of fact, I ****ing hate it, but that doesn't make it any less true, so I "unliked" it, and that didn't change the truth of it either.

I've been cheated on and D'd and I've been cheated on and R'd ... probably as successfully as possible ... both had completely different fact sets, financial considerations, times of life, etc. So I decided one way at one point and another at another point in my life. Although I have ACCEPTED this latest life choice as being the best for me based on this particular fact set and life stage, it doesn't diminish or invalidate the "TRUTHS" quoted above and to get "comfortable" with those truths simply requires a level of self-deception I don't possess.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Yet people decide to try to spend the rest of their lives with people who abuse them this much. Other people encourage this, disgusting. What have we come to in society that people in these situations are not encouraged and helped to get out of them? It is a profound disgrace. :crying:


I'd of kept it more basic if starting a thread like this and called it:

*Why would anyone want to be married to someone who fvcked another person? *

But I agree with your rationale. It's frightening how many people think so little of themselves.

I really can't think of a WORSE way to disrespect your spouse. Then to accept it by staying with them?!? 

Profound disgrace is an understatement.....


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Rationalization, like anything else in life. People cherry pick, dismiss, weigh and look at the brighter sides of things. They also look at the darker side when it is in their backyard. It is done every day in all walks of life. I mean it is so common place, even people who have committed adultery are looked upon as heroes by many people.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Here is the person I have decided to spend the rest of my life and share everything with. Oh and they I also had to have take a polygraph to prove that they are truthful about how, and how many times they stabbed me in the back. Sounds like the basis for a great marriage.
> 
> I say for the person who is willing to accept this kind of life, get them help.


Your original post says “if you could look into the future and see that this person would have to take a polygraph…..”. Well the thing is, hindsight is 20/20 right? Sure, 5-10-15 years down the road, once someone hurts you it’s easy to say that you shoulda, coulda, woulda seen the signs. 

Cheating is horrible. Yep, I’ve felt it. So is being physically abused by your spouse. Yep, I’ve felt it. So is being raped. Yep, I’ve felt it. All 3 of those things happened with the 3 men that I’ve been in love with in my life. And I would say those three things are among the worst that could happen to someone. But if you’dve told me that any of those three things would’ve happened with any one of those three men……I wouldn’t have believed you. That’s just not who I knew them to BE. Honestly, the most shocking was the rape. I LOVED that man. He was an AMAZING boyfriend. I STILL have trouble reconciling the person I dated with the person who raped me. 

My point is this – a partner can do any number of things to you that betray you. Most people consider infidelity the worst. The most hurtful. The most destructive. But there are other levels of betrayal. Physical abuse, financial betrayal. I’ve stated before a friends husband went to prison for selling heroin and she had no idea he was dealing (he was a pharmacist for Pete’s sake). I’ve had family members who have had great boyfriends/spouses. They get pregnant, the guy is there the entire pregnancy and the baby is born and BOOM, guy disappears, never to be heard from again. We have a member on here whose wife did not respect his wishes for work and travel, drove him to the point of exhaustion with what SHE wanted and he was involved in a bad accident because of it. There are so many ways to betray someone else. And I’m sure so many of us have been shocked by what someone else has done to us. Unfortunately, I think that’s human nature.

And as far as why someone would want to stay with someone that has to take a poly, just remember, some people choose to stay with someone who has betrayed them in other ways other than infidelity that others would choose to walk away from. There’s really no right or wrong answer, it’s just a personal choice.


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## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Your original post says “if you could look into the future and see that this person would have to take a polygraph…..”. Well the thing is, hindsight is 20/20 right? Sure, 5-10-15 years down the road, once someone hurts you it’s easy to say that you shoulda, coulda, woulda seen the signs.
> 
> Cheating is horrible. Yep, I’ve felt it. So is being physically abused by your spouse. Yep, I’ve felt it. So is being raped. Yep, I’ve felt it. All 3 of those things happened with the 3 men that I’ve been in love with in my life. And I would say those three things are among the worst that could happen to someone. But if you’dve told me that any of those three things would’ve happened with any one of those three men……I wouldn’t have believed you. That’s just not who I knew them to BE. Honestly, the most shocking was the rape. I LOVED that man. He was an AMAZING boyfriend. I STILL have trouble reconciling the person I dated with the person who raped me.
> 
> ...


Wow I am sorry you went through that. Thats horrible.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Even if they change their stripes you are still subjecting yourself to spend every day of your life with someone who horribly abused you. To do that you must dampen your soul and it's bad for you as a person. This is not a healthy choice.


You know, I actually pity you. You must have had a horrible life to be so jaded.

Have you been cheated on? Have the rest of you expounding this crap been cheated on??

How many of you have read my story?

Do I strike you as the kind of person has 'dampened their soul'???

You people really need to get a grip here and stop acting so high and mighty.


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## release2016 (Dec 30, 2016)

sokillme said:


> ...
> 
> you will have to subjugate your soul to some extent because you know deep down in your heart that you are settling. *This is part of why you are in so much pain even years later, because you have given up control of your life to fear. Because you have given your agency to someone who abused you.*
> 
> There is so much better our there for you but you have to be brave and leave.


This is all so true - I'm feeling the fear but trying to do it (leave) anyway.

And I would say the reason why someone would "want" to be married to someone they have to give a polygraph to is fear. They dont necessarily "want" to be married to that person, but they fear being alone/starting over more than they fear the hurt and emotional pain they have become all too familiar with.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

The original question *Why would anyone want to be married to someone who they have to give a polygraph*

For a large number of reasons

*Because they want the truth so they can decide if they can forgive. 

*So they can free their spouse from their lies, and their spouse can forgive themselves, if they have a conscience.

*That they DID everything they could to save the marriage.

*So they can decide what to do with the other person.

*So they can inform the other persons spouse.

*So they know that the other person or unknown other person is not still in contact or nearby. 

*So they can find out if their spouse is still in love with the other person 

*So they can determine if their spouse has never regained love or attraction for them.

*To decide after the divorce if remarriage is possible. 

Tamat


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

release2016 said:


> This is all so true - I'm feeling the fear but trying to do it (leave) anyway.
> 
> And I would say the reason why someone would "want" to be married to someone they have to give a polygraph to is fear. They dont necessarily "want" to be married to that person, but they fear being alone/starting over more than they fear the hurt and emotional pain they have become all too familiar with.


The best thing my Mother ever did was leave her abuser. My life with my wonderful wife wouldn't be here today if I had stayed with my first love who cheated on me. It will be hard at first no denying that but just like you feel in love and had something with this person who was the wrong one you can do the same with someone new. You can still have the dream, just not with this person. But you will have to have courage and faith.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TAMAT said:


> The original question *Why would anyone want to be married to someone who they have to give a polygraph*
> 
> For a large number of reasons
> 
> ...



The question was not why would you ask them to take a poly, it's why would you stay in a relationship where a poly needed to be used.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> You know, I actually pity you. You must have had a horrible life to be so jaded.
> 
> Have you been cheated on? Have the rest of you expounding this crap been cheated on??
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you are upset enough by this to want to attack me. This was not an attack on anyone, or not meant to be. It was meant to be encouragement for people to seek out better in their lives.

I have posted on here many times how I and relatives lives got so much better when they left. 

Read some of these posts do any of these people seem happy , they are desperately trying to fix something that is beyond repair. It's sad to see people waste their lives. And no one on there is allowed to say, no this is not fixable. It is normal, healthy and reasonable that when you waking up everyday next to someone who committed one of the most emotionally painful sins against you and even possibly your children, if you had them, that you probably will be very unhappy in your life.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Obviously I mention criminals because in this context it's same.


Generally, "criminals" don't take polygraphs because their lawyers advise them not to. It's innocent people that jump at the opportunity to take them to demonstrate to the police that they should be ruled out as a suspect and the police should focus their time and resources elsewhere. For example, baby gets kidnapped and the parents want the police to stop investigating them and, instead, focus on finding their abducted child. 

But I do understand your point. Adultery is a crime. It is abuse. It is not to be taken lightly or summed up simply as a mistake. 




sokillme said:


> I think since the happy are probably about 001% it is much better to encourage people to leave, the people who leave are about 99% happy.


So you're saying there's a chance?

I'm certain I'm exponentially more happy than you; but, I'd have been happy either way. That said, "happiness" isn't the goal of my life, it is the byproduct of living well. 

That said, just because you "THINK" some statistics up about happiness doesn't make your "everybody divorce advice" legitimate, correct, or more or less healthy in any given situation. Your "thinking" this about "happiness" doesn't negate every betrayed spouses right to choose how they want to live their own lives or gamble their futures. Maybe "happiness" isn't their paramount priority too. In fact, the odds of "happiness" either way is a crap-shoot and, in my opinion and experience, depends much more on the individual than any relationship. Actual research {research link}
 indicates:



> Psychological well-being has shown mixed changes during recovery from the Great Recession. General happiness is up from a historical low in 2010 of 28.8% saying they are very happy to 32.5% being very happy in 2014 (+3.7 percentage points). The 2014 happiness level was near the 1972-2014 average for overall happiness of 33.3%. Marital happiness did not dip during the economic downtown, but showed a notable decrease in 2014 when only 59.9% were very happy. That was a decline of 3.1 points from 2010.​


I have personal knowledge and experience with many very happily recovered couples and many happily divorced persons as well. I also know a few suffering and unhappy still recovering {hopefully} betrayed spouses and many suffering divorced betrayed spouses. Most of the marriages that incur infidelity were, no doubt, not in the 60% of "very happy" marriages with so taking such marriages, adding in adultery and making it a "very happy marriage" can be a challenge but it's not an insurmountable feat and it certainly happens more than .001% of the time and divorced persons certainly don't beat the odds and achieve "happiness" at a rate of 99%. My point is your numbers are way off and people {betrayed spouses} aren't statistics and only the betrayed spouse themselves, over time, can weigh out the odds along with their priorities, facts and circumstances to make a decision about their lives.





sokillme said:


> it is the moral thing to do. It has nothing to do with being weak it has to do with settling for the lowest possible type of person in your life as your partner no less. Everyone should strive for better. All you have to do is read SI to see this 99% of the people who reconcile do it because of fear, and this is only encouraged by misguided people on there, many who also reconciled because of the same fear. Then they suffer for years mostly the rest of their lives. I hope anyone waffling will read these posts and draw some strength from them. YOUR LIFE WILL BE SO MUCH BETTER IF YOU LEAVE!


A person dead set on denying reality, making up statistics and lying to hurting betrayed spouses desperate for advice and help indicating there is no hope and that they are hopeless, fear motivated and weak for even considering reconciliation in my book is a much lower person TODAY than someone like my wife or the spouses of many here who had an affair years ago and have since repented. Speaking mistruths and half-truths in order to persuade hopelessness is much more immoral than trying to assist someone honestly, objectively and informatively as they journey down their very own similar, yet unique infidelity decision path towards making 'healthy' choices. As the divorced guy you seem to be 'suffering for years' much more than me carrying around the burden and hatred for everybody else's wayward wife, which kind of goes against your point that you need to/must divorce to somehow stop the suffering or put it behind you. No matter what you do {divorce or reconcile}, it happened. But, perhaps there's something to some betrayed spouses having an apologetic, remorseful and regretful former wayward wife in our lives that do everything and anything to make it up to us that somehow alleviates such supposed suffering. On the other hand, it probably has more to do with forgiveness. I don't suffer or hold on to resentment. Ive long ago forgiven her and I've been way to fortunate in life to start weighing out fairness calculations. 




sokillme said:


> It's remarkable after the polygraph for instance, every post is about now there is a framework to build trust. Are these posters kidding. Like the person who was lying to you over and over again just weeks before is now trusted to never lie again, because they passed a poly, when they were absolute back into a corner and couldn't lie anymore. Like they can't and won't just start lying all over again. Lying is in their nature, it's what they do. What is the basis to say that there is a framework? This advice is just stupid and that that is the advice people are giving. The polygraph is celebrated as some sort of success. YOU ARE MARRIED TO SOMEONE WHO LIED TO YOU TO THE POINT THAT YOU NEED A MACHINE TO SEE WHAT WAS TRUE AND WHAT WERE LIES! There is not success in that, it's a tragedy. This should be common sense.


Lying is human nature. You're even doing it on this thread ~ like the outrageous claim you actually think divorced betrayed spouses end up 99% happy.

No one claimed a successful polygraph somehow magically makes the wayward trustworthy to never lie again. At best, it might be step one towards a long process of rebuilding trust over YEARS.

It IS common sense that a polygraph exam after betrayal is pretty much the lowest point of any marital relationship; but, yet, many couples survive it and still recover ~ happily. Like I said before, a year later there is no significant difference between the recovering couples that utilized a polygraph and the recovering couples that didn't. I even had to ask my wife about some of the couples we've helped and was surprised to be reminded of a few more of them than I initially recalled that did utilize a polygraph. In the end it's the actual affair and adultery that harm and end marriages, polygraphs have nothing to do with it other than a flat out refusals to take one is a pretty good way to figure out recovery isn't likely to happen in that particular situation. 




sokillme said:


> It's like encouraging the person, who was stolen from, to let the person who steals back in there house because they were caught and gave back the stuff. Yet this is what passes for good advice. All this when the person who has taken the poly has displayed the most despicable lack of character. News flash character doesn't change over night. Most of the time it doesn't really change at all. Nope, they finally after they were backed into a wall came clean, so all is good now, now you have your foundation. How can anyone encourage this in good conscience?
> 
> If a person is willing to lie that much it's in their nature, and just because they were busted doesn't mean their nature has changed. People encouraging someone to trust a person like that should be ashamed.


Yet people do this all the time {let thieves back into their home}. Often they're called children and people often choose to make exceptions and accommodations for their children. Maybe you'd be the type of guy to throw your son out onto the streets for stealing a loaf of bread. Other fathers might choose to do otherwise. If you struggle with the question of what to do with your thieving son I don't see why anyone would need to feel ashamed over helping you assess the question openly and honestly whereas telling the father of a thieving son there is only one answer and every other possible solution, consequence, action is immoral and stupid wouldn't be that informative, helpful or really even kind.




sokillme said:


> I am going to keep posting this over and over because I hope people will read this and see the truth.


I get it. So you're really not here to truly discuss or should I say "talk about" anything. Rather you are here to promote your agenda and immutable conclusion based upon your singular experience, some stuff you read on the cesspool forum SI while ignoring and denying the stated experiences of many others that divorce after infidelity is the ONLY healthy inevitable choice for just about everyone {excepting the 1 in 100,000 exception= .001%}. In other words, your threads like this one and posts aren't ever questions ~ you have no hypothesis ~ they're just statements or opinion.




sokillme said:


> Get out get away from someone who has such a complete lack of character.


My wife's "lack of character" wasn't "complete". It was fugacious, as was mine. We were both young and stupid. We both had a lot of learning and maturing to do as well as characters to develop. Character, or the lack thereof, is never static. The only way to "get out/get away" from anyone that may exhibit lack of character at any point in time is to simply avoid relationships altogether. 




sokillme said:


> Don't base your life and your future on them.


My wife isn't a "them", she's the wife of my youth. My first wife. My only wife. If I chose to give her a chance to repent and redeem herself and make amends for her sins then that's my choice, my risk, my future just as it's the choice of every betrayed spouse to make the informed choices and decisions that suit them. From the sounds of it, your ex-wife wasn't worth risking your life and future on. Mine was and the gamble paid off for me, her and our children and generations thereafter. Like I said before, I'd have been happy either way because that's my nature; but overall and in hindsight, reconciling was certainly the right way to have gone.





sokillme said:


> You will suffer with them for the rest of your life, and in the end what do you get? A person who could look you in the eye and say they love you, and then spit at you behind your back. A person who is a proven liar, and will most likely lie to you again. A person who probably has no idea how to live an authentic life and will take a lifetime to learn using you as their test environment. And to do it you will have to subjugate your soul to some extent because you know deep down in your heart that you are settling. This is part of why you are in so much pain even years later, because you have given up control of your life to fear. Because you have given your agency to someone who abused you.
> 
> There is so much better out there for you but you have to be brave and leave.


So says you. I'm not suffering. I'm not in pain. I'm not now nor was I ever fearful of divorce and being on my own. I haven't "subjugated my soul" to anyone or anything whatever that means and I certainly wasn't settling as my wife is simply awesome, smart and beautiful and her long ago sins are as far from the east as the west. She doesn't own me and I don't own her ~ we just are "we". I simply chose to give reconciliation a chance and, after a sustained effort on both our parts to educate ourselves and work through the process everything worked out pretty good and now we stand together as a story of survival and perseverance to those struggling in their own marriages as we both assist, mentor and coach other couples making their own decisions and choices. 

To be clear, I'm not special. We're not unique. Our marriage was just as over as every other marriage that endured infidelity and yet through prayer and God's amazing grace we pulled out it stronger and ended up happier than we ever were before.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> This is another great one that is just not factual, if you stay married you are never out of infidelity. It is a part of your marriage forever. It actually becomes the defining moment of your marriage and a lot of your relationship has to account for it. In a healthy marriage, this is not the case. Again read the posts of people 5, 10, 25 years out. It will always be mentioned, it will always be thought of every anniversary, if your kid is cheated on, when you see movies where infidelity is part of the story or hear about friends that were cheated on. There is no getting out of infidelity if you stay in the relationship where there is infidelity.
> 
> People always advise to get out of infidelity but never tell the truth that the only way to get out of infidelity is to leave the partner who cheated.


what are you talking about? i dont think about any of that stuff. i never really think of my wifes past infidelity except when i am reading threads on TAM.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

sokillme said:


> You know who normally take poly's criminals and ex-cons. It's a shame that a polygraph is encouraged as a way to move forward.


Wrong. Polygraphs are administered to prospective police applicants and to the military. Polygraphs are also required for some of the higher security clearances, especially those above top secret. I've taken two polygraphs, once when I was in the military because of the classified nature of my job, and the other time as the 2nd to the last step before becoming a police officer. And I'm pretty sure I'm not a criminal or ex-con.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lordmayhem said:


> Wrong. Polygraphs are administered to prospective police applicants and to the military. Polygraphs are also required for some of the higher security clearances, especially those above top secret. I've taken two polygraphs, once when I was in the military because of the classified nature of my job, and the other time as the 2nd to the last step before becoming a police officer. And I'm pretty sure I'm not a criminal or ex-con.


Stop with the strawman. I guess context is too subtle for you.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Stop with the strawman.


 He countered your argument of "normally criminals." No, not a strawman.



> I guess context is too subtle for you.


No, you framed your "subtle" point poorly in "context." It actually fits your argument and the moving goal posts included.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> what are you talking about? i dont think about any of that stuff. i never really think of my wifes past infidelity except when i am reading threads on TAM.


Hence you are not out of it, any time infidelity comes up it reminds you of her past. This is my point, the people saying you can get out of it are wrong, it will always be there. 

The honest answer is you will always be reminded of it. It may not hurt as much but it will be there in your marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He countered your argument of "normally criminals." No, not a strawman.
> 
> No, you framed your "subtle" point poorly in "context." It actually fits your argument and the moving goal posts included.


Here I will make is simple, understand that your SO is being given a poly in the same context that a suspected criminal is given one. That doesn't put them in a very good light. My post was never about why people are given polys (I am amazed I have to point this out, but I guess I shouldn't be) I know there are other reasons, your argument is a strawman.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Here I will make is simple, understand that your SO is being given a poly in the same context that a suspected criminal is given one. That doesn't put them in a very good light. My post was never about why people are given polys (I am amazed I have to point this out, but I guess I shouldn't be) I know there are other reasons, your argument is a strawman.


Nope, not a straw man. You go ahead and keep moving the goal posts.

Not my argument either, but please continue.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Hence you are not out of it, any time infidelity comes up it reminds you of her past. This is my point, the people saying you can get out of it are wrong, it will always be there.
> 
> The honest answer is you will always be reminded of it. It may not hurt as much but it will be there in your marriage.


i would NEVER be out of it then. it does not bother me at all today, but if i were to divorce my wife, guess what, my memory is not wiped clean. its not like i am going to magically wake up one day and suddenly not have any memories of past events. 

like i said, it doesnt hurt. you are projecting.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Generally, "criminals" don't take polygraphs because their lawyers advise them not to. It's innocent people that jump at the opportunity to take them to demonstrate to the police that they should be ruled out as a suspect and the police should focus their time and resources elsewhere. For example, baby gets kidnapped and the parents want the police to stop investigating them and, instead, focus on finding their abducted child.
> 
> But I do understand your point. Adultery is a crime. It is abuse. It is not to be taken lightly or summed up simply as a mistake.
> 
> ...



I'm not divorced, never been, I am also quite happily married for over 13 years. This makes it even easier to advise not staying because I know what a happy marriage can be. I want others to have the best for their lives. Nice assumptions though. It's noticeable that everyone who is in recovery has attacked me personally. There is no, "I disagree with you", it's all I" pity you, you are bitter", and such. Hey if you think I am wrong why not just say, in my experience it worked for me. Besides what do you care, it worked out for you right? I think "thou dost protest too much" may be fitting in this context. 

All you have to do is look at the recovery section of SI to tell that the people are miserable and the advice to stay together is keeping them trapped in their misery. Again having a good marriage for 13 years makes it easy for me to idenity that these people are settling for so much less in there lives. 

I wonder how your research would look if we added the a polygraph into the mix which is what this post is about. Interestingly all the rebuttals maybe not surprisingly seem to admit this context. If you're going to take a poly then there must have been some seriously terrible abuse by your partner.

I wonder why context is so hard for those who disagree. Makes me also wonder if those who advise staying together even look at context or just advise staying together no matter what the cost. Maybe context doesn't matter to some. 

To me context is everything


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> i would NEVER be out of it then. it does not bother me at all today, but if i were to divorce my wife, guess what, my memory is not wiped clean. its not like i am going to magically wake up one day and suddenly not have any memories of past events.
> 
> like i said, it doesnt hurt. you are projecting.



Nope you're never out of it. Any you are living with the person who put you into it. I just saying don't promise that you can get out of it because you can't. Don't give false hope. Some get over it, some don't. If you leave you at least don't have the trigger with you day in day out.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Nope, not a straw man. You go ahead and keep moving the goal posts.
> 
> Not my argument either, but please continue.


If you want to have a discussion about why people have polygraphs please make another post.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Has anyone here ever had their partner take a polygraph and pass? If so, did that make you stop suspecting them, and trust them?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

uhtred said:


> Has anyone here ever had their partner take a polygraph and pass? If so, did that make you stop suspecting them, and trust them?


i havent had my wife take a polygraph. instead, when i suspected her of lying to me, i used interrogation techniques to find out what the truth looked like, and then determined what her "tells" were. it was subtle, she had no idea i was doing it until i explained it to her.

my wife has lied about dumb stuff, but never about her infidelity. can i say that with absolute certainty? no, but at this point im pretty confident of it. confident enough to believe that i have the truth. 

at this point, my wife knows that i can tell when she is lying. 

sometimes she still gives me white lies about dumb stuff that really doesn't matter, but usually she will stop herself halfway through the story and just tell me the truth. its an old habit of hers that she has worked hard to break. 


seeing her working to break a habit that was so ingrained in her that it was like breathing has been worth my time to stick around. 

she lied out of habit. her mother is the same way. im certain that she learned it from he mother. the fact that she works on changing something so incredibly ingrained is all i need. i dont have to trust every word in order to love her. she is continuously becoming a better person. 

i love seeing the transformation.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Nope you're never out of it. Any you are living with the person who put you into it. I just saying don't promise that you can get out of it because you can't. Don't give false hope. Some get over it, some don't. If you leave you at least don't have the trigger with you day in day out.


to me it doesnt matter whether someone stays with their wayward spouse or not. to them, it matters. 

people often come here asking if its worth their time to reconcile. my answer usually involves a question: can you reconcile with no regret?

many people cannot, and they should leave their cheating spouse. the truth is, that question can only be answered by them. they literally get to decide if they are going to be happy with their life or not. if they choose to express joy no matter what their situation is, they can get through anything and they will be just fine. if they cannot, they should not try to save the marriage. 


people usually want to know if their spouse can change. my answer is always yes. if you can change, then your spouse will change as a result of your change. 

you would be surprised at how many people try to avoid change.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> i havent had my wife take a polygraph. instead, when i suspected her of lying to me, i used interrogation techniques to find out what the truth looked like, and then determined what her "tells" were. it was subtle, she had no idea i was doing it until i explained it to her.
> 
> my wife has lied about dumb stuff, but never about her infidelity. can i say that with absolute certainty? no, but at this point im pretty confident of it. confident enough to believe that i have the truth.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry As'laDain, you are not going to like my answer but I feel like having to learn your wives body language to know for sure if she is lying is not a happy thing. I don't see that as a good situation, you have effectively changed the nature of your relationship and now you have to oversee her. This is not a judgment of you, it's how I feel about it. Again these type of answers always just reinforce my opinion that that are better possibilities out there. 

For instance, even when the WS is repentant, your relationship is taken over by the affair, it affects everything even your kids because so much emotional energy is expended on trying to fix this pile of 5hit that is dropped in the middle of your life. Some WS are paralyzed by shame for years, again then you are married to a person who is paralyzed with shame. So again the BS loses do to no fault of their own. The dynamic is never a healthy one. At least if the BS leaves there is the possibility of meeting someone else who is healthy therefore one person and situation that the child can model that is a healthy one.

Sorry, I just don't see it as anything but less than what it could have been, except when the marriage was so awful, like verbal abuse, maybe then it can be a better relationship than what it was. But then again I don't think anyone should stay in a relationship when there is any kind of abuse, physical or verbal.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Odds are after a person has hit their mid 20s they aren't going to change much if at all. 

If they're a proven liar, they're going to continue to BE a liar. 

You know the old saying.. if you can't change a person.. then you CHANGE the person.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I'm not divorced, never been, I am also quite happily married for over 13 years. This makes it even easier to advise not staying because I know what a happy marriage can be.


You really need to include this in your signature line. The fact you have no idea what you are talking about and have never been faced with such choices personally explains a lot. I

I FELT similar to you prior to my experience with my wife's affair. Feelings aren't fact. The fact is, married couples recover from infidelity all the time. 

I'm sorry you feel so attacked but your feigned concern for "others to have the best for their lives" is, itself, an attack on every newly recovering betrayed spouse by whispering to them that "it will never be ok", "they'll never change/repent", "you will never get over it" and "you're weak and insignificant". Not to mention calling anyone daring to offer recovery advice and suggestions immoral and stupid and implying they are lying about their happiness {or that their happiness is somehow less than}. You also disrespectfully portend to speak for betrayed spouses and their motivations {they only recover out of fear and on and on about what's going on in the back of their mind}. So pardon me for speaking a bit harshly on behalf of recovered betrayed spouses everywhere and defending us from such nonsensical attacks on a forum called Talking about marriage {not sokillme's feelings about infidelity} and on subforum titled "coping with infidelity" a subject that you have no personal experience "coping" with {your "significant other"/girlfriend cheating on you or your mom leaving your cheating dad isn't remotely the same thing}. 




sokillme said:


> Besides what do you care, it worked out for you right? I think "thou dost protest too much" may be fitting in this context.


You've got 2000+ posts lamenting the notion of reconciliation and denying the possibility and existence of real repentance, redemption, reconciliation and forgiveness. For a supposedly happily married guy whose never dealt with a wayward wife, that's an awful lot of "protesting" and reality distorting. I "care" because I dislike seeing desperate betrayed spouses lied to under the misguided notion that you {and others} are helping to save them a ton {months and years} of supposed guaranteed grief and misery by just getting them to end it now and end it quickly as though divorce is the inevitable result of every such situation. I can be sympathetic to the story, accounts and advice coming from a divorced guy that fought the wrong way for far too long and ended up divorced anyway after being screwed through the divorce process by his wife who took every advantage of him and his misplaced hope through the entire process. It makes sense that such a guy would see prolonged efforts to reconcile as needless misery and damage when divorce appears to them to be inevitable in most situations. But that's not what you are doing here and it's dishonest and immoral to lie to betrayed spouses especially when you have no idea what you are talking about.




sokillme said:


> All you have to do is look at the recovery section of SI to tell that the people are miserable and the advice to stay together is keeping them trapped in their misery. Again having a good marriage for 13 years makes it easy for me to idenity that these people are settling for so much less in there lives.


SI is a cesspool that will hopefully soon disappear. Happily recovered persons don't tend to stick around "infidelity chat forums" mopping up misery and misery loves company so only the worst situations and people seem to linger. Many of them aren't even married. Over 10 years ago I personally {and privately} argued with DS for the opportunity to come into SI and establish an actual SI recovery plan so that the desperate people that arrived there would have real help available to them versus walking around the infidelity hospital lobby taking folk wisdom from whatever idiot happened to be online with whatever the philosophy of the moment happened to be along with some hugs. She regretfully decided to go a different direction and shut down all coaching and opinions one way or another. Personally, I don't like to see anyone trapped in misery so I try to promote and have them choose/implement a plan to get them to either divorce or a real recovery in the fastest manner possible. No one has to settle for "so much less in their lives" which is why if they choose to recover I want to help them make their recoveries great. Ending the affair and simply recommitting to the marriage isn't nearly enough and being "trapped in misery" is a choice as well. 




sokillme said:


> I wonder why context is so hard for those who disagree. Makes me also wonder if those who advise staying together even look at context or just advise staying together no matter what the cost. Maybe context doesn't matter to some.
> 
> To me context is everything


It's odd to see you refer to "context being everything" when almost all your posts present the exact same conclusion without any consideration or weighing of the unique context presented. In other words, you appear to pick and choose things, events and circumstances from the context of the story to support your predetermined conclusion rather than basing your conclusion/advice upon the context of such events. 

I personally don't advise recovery "no matter the cost", but "costs" are relative to the person paying them and most of the time the betrayed spouse comes to these forums looking for help to save their marriage and will ignore all advice to the contrary. I try to give proactive advice {expose, confront, file restraining orders, cut the internet, snoop and get the truth NOW, go after the affair partner, etc} with the understanding and belief that it's the best and fastest way to get to a potential recovery {and I've seen even the worst of situations recover} OR have the betrayed spouse come to the realization that there's not going to be repentance/recovery and divorce is their best/only option {and maybe that just occurs because once challenged and confronted the wayward spouse then files for divorce and initiates the process themselves thereby freeing the betrayed spouse from the misery of indecision after all}. Sometimes when offering advice you've got to meet the advice seeker in the context of where they are at versus where you think they'll end up {or should end up}.

Regardless, we both firmly agree that a lifetime living with an unrepentant wayward spouse would be miserable and such betrayed spouse would be better off without them. Still their choice but we do have some points of agreement.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The only reasons I would stay in a relationship without trust is if there were an overwhelming financial interest. (staying for children is almost always a mistake IMHO). At that point its a business partnership, not a marriage, so why should I care if my partner cheats again. I don't want to have sex with someone I don't trust.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> You really need to include this in your signature line. The fact you have no idea what you are talking about and have never been faced with such choices personally explains a lot. I
> 
> I FELT similar to you prior to my experience with my wife's affair. Feelings aren't fact. The fact is, married couples recover from infidelity all the time.
> 
> ...


Again you assume. You know what they say about assuming don't you. As I have posted on here before, I was cheated on by my first true love, found out about a month after I proposed to her. I stuck around for about 3 weeks and then ghosted her and have never spoken to her since. It was devastating believe me. It took me about 2 years to recover. Just in time to meet my wife and have my life rescued, but I was pretty much over it then and back to being happy, if not lonely, probably why I was able to meet my wife. If I had decided to stay which I think I could have, I would not have had such a good life, it would have forever been tainted.  

I bet you can tell though I couldn't get over the unfairness of it all. I didn't want to be with someone who I had no real understanding of, who could be so different then me as far as morals, and who could lie to me and say otherwise. I didn't want to always be pissed off and asking myself why all the time. It realized that, ultimately she did it because she could and because of that she was not a good choice. Even if I was to be alone forever. At the time I think I really felt like I would be, I wanted to be, so it was really giving up on ever meeting anyone again. It was damn hard, the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I was an am a very committed person. I was deeply bonded to that woman. It felt like dying. This is why I am so passionate about it. At first, I was convinced my life was over and I would never feel the same kind of happiness again. Thank God that people helped me be brave and take a leap of faith. Now I pay it forward. 

My father also cheated on my Mother and probably every other woman he had the opportunity to. I love him dearly he is a great father to me but I wouldn't want to date or marry him. I see now that for about 3 years after he left the emotional stuff my Mom was going through caused me to lose out on a lot of her attention. In fact, most of my greatest struggles as a kid were during this time, makes sense in a very real sense I as emotionally alone. I don't blame her at all, this was a direct consequence of my father's lack of character. I can only imagine what it would have been if they had tried to make it work somehow. He proceeded to do the same thing to another long term girlfriend years later. People rarely change. My betrayed Mother, by the way, was one of those people who encouraged me to get out of infidelity and not just survive it. 

I believe wholeheartedly in forgiveness and even that there are some very rare people who see the light. However it takes a hell of a lot of work, and some transgressions are so bad as to cause you to lose your privileges. Someone who has abused another person so badly should not be married to them anymore. Nothing you can say can convince me that it is in the best interest of the person who was betrayed to stay when we are talking about polygraph level of destruction. 
Anyway a truly changed WS should get another chance with someone else willing to take on their damage if they can find them. 

Yes, I admit I am kind of a broken record (this is not all I post about though). Someone has to do it, as you stated there is a whole site dedicated to keeping these poor people trapped like zombies in awful dead end relationships with emotional vampires.

@chumplady is my hero and I follow her teachings.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

Goodness. This is almost as exciting as a Wimbledon final.

If I may offer a perspective - as an actual person whose husband actually cheated on her (twice) and then actually took an actual polygraph and currently intends to work at staying actually married to same. 

(But before I do that, I’d like to ask you all to do something. For me, one of the most damaging by-products of being cheated on was the damage it did to my sense of self-worth. Maybe I am alone in this, but I don’t believe so after the reading I’ve done here. Having my husband cheat on me made me feel humiliated, undesirable, weak and very, very sad. And angry. (Lots and lots of angry.) I have made a decision to pursue a reconciliation with him because I believe that he is genuinely remorseful and for a whole host of other factual issues that I won’t go into here. I did not make this decision lightly. And I doubt it at least five times a day. That doesn’t make it the wrong decision. As long as my husband holds up his end and the facts stay as they are, my decision remains the same. To be glibly told by someone who does not know either me, my husband or the details of my situation that I am weak, needy or pathetic for choosing to work on my marriage rather than walk away from it, is not only personally unhelpful to me, but also cruel to everyone reading this who is in a similar position to mine. So have your say, by all means. Only please do it with respect and the awareness that you tread on toes that are already bruised.)

I note that polygraphs are suggested often here on TAM - as they were on my thread. And I latched onto it before discarding it because it seemed so extreme. But I did suggest it to my husband early on in our "relationship future" discussions. He had told me that he had never had sex (or come anywhere near having sex) with his AP. I wanted very much to believe him, but there were dark corners of my mind that whispered otherwise (echoed by helpful TAM posters). He was very taken aback when I brought it up. I have a pretty dark sense of humour, but I'll never forget the look on his face when he said, "But don't you believe me?". Cue stony stare from BS. I think that it was at that moment that he truly began to grasp what he had thrown away. He hadn't actually told many direct lies (obviously many lies of omission) during his affair. I am not by nature a suspicious person, so I hadn't demanded any explanations really up until I found out about the affair. But he did tell one about a gift that she gave him. 

We moved on from that point, and I let the whole polygraph thing go, but then new evidence came to light. In fairness, it wasn't very far outside of the generic disclosure that he had already made to me (freely, without being found out first) about the time he had spent at her house. But it was enough to upset my apple cart. When I found it, I cracked. He sat by me and looked at it on the screen - taken from his Google location history. I told him that I no longer believed that he hadn't had sex with her. He told me that he could understand why I felt that way. And then he said that he wanted to take the polygraph. He wanted to be able to give me a peg in the ground to start from. So he did. The examiner that I finally found was a lovely, older, wise man. He does polygraphs a lot for the banking and insurance sector, but he also does a lot of infidelity cases. He and I had a long conversation about what the polygraph could and could not tell. And what I might get from it. And what I wouldn't be able to get from it. 

But I'd like to quote from @Quality's very wise words earlier in the discussion before it turned a little too rabidly philosophical for me


Quality said:


> Verified honesty and truthfulness using a poly {or the threat of a poly} isn't the "basis for a great marriage" but it can be the starting point or foundation of a recovery process which then may or may not lead to a great recovery and later a great marriage.
> 
> A desperate former wayward spouse willing to subject themselves to such a test {degrading as it is} is also a demonstration of humility, shame and repentance. A willingness to do whatever it takes to demonstrate honesty can be reassuring to a unsure betrayed spouses considering reconciliation. They are obviously now aware their word is no good and that their betrayed spouse would be a fool to believe them so they WILLINGLY submit to a poly to prove that are now telling the truth.


Absolutely. Like a NC letter, my husband taking the polygraph was a big deal for me. He told me that it was incredibly humiliating and it was obviously a great invasion of his privacy, but he was glad that he did it. It hasn't fixed anything per se, I wouldn't say that at all. It just gave the lies and deceit a boundary. A fixed point that I could hold onto. Not the polygraph results, but the fact that he did it. Willingly. Do I still doubt the results - yes, of course. (I can also read the critiques of the technique online.) But the voices in my head are quieter. And I'm OK with that.

So, I believe the question was why would I want to stay married to a man that I (had to) ask to take a polygraph? Because I want to stay married to the man ... and the polygraph was helpful in getting me to a place where I could do that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator notice:-*

I am not convinced that this thread is serving any real purpose.

We know some people cannot conceive of remaining with a spouse who cheated on them.

We know some people cannot conceive of leaving the spouse that cheated on them.



> Why would anyone want to be married to someone who they have to give a polygraph?


*
Because they want to?*

And continuing to barrack them or goad them is not helpful and just stirs up a lot if ill will and ill feeling.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I'm sorry you are upset enough by this to want to attack me. This was not an attack on anyone, or not meant to be. It was meant to be encouragement for people to seek out better in their lives.
> 
> I have posted on here many times how I and relatives lives got so much better when they left.
> 
> Read some of these posts do any of these people seem happy , they are desperately trying to fix something that is beyond repair. It's sad to see people waste their lives. And no one on there is allowed to say, no this is not fixable. It is normal, healthy and reasonable that when you waking up everyday next to someone who committed one of the most emotionally painful sins against you and even possibly your children, if you had them, that you probably will be very unhappy in your life.


I notice you're completely ignoring my questions. Care to answer them?

As far as attacking goes, your repeated posts displaying your supposed superiority for believing you would never stay with a cheater are what's attacking. BS's are a fragile lot when they first get cheated on. Your repeated and forceful denial of the reality of it is potentially damaging to their recovery and I really think you should be shut down because of it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator notice:-*
> 
> I am not convinced that this thread is serving any real purpose.
> 
> ...


We were posting at the same time. Can this thread be locked now?? You are SO right - it's serving NO purpose.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Last post


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Again you assume. You know what they say about assuming don't you. As I have posted on here before, I was cheated on by my first true love, found out about a month after I proposed to her. I stuck around for about 3 weeks and then ghosted her and have never spoken to her since. It was devastating believe me. It took me about 2 years to recover. Just in time to meet my wife and have my life rescued, but I was pretty much over it then and back to being happy, if not lonely, probably why I was able to meet my wife. If I had decided to stay which I think I could have, I would not have had such a good life, it would have forever been tainted.
> 
> I bet you can tell though I couldn't get over the unfairness of it all. I didn't want to be with someone who I had no real understanding of, who could be so different then me as far as morals, and who could lie to me and say otherwise. I didn't want to always be pissed off and asking myself why all the time. It realized that, ultimately she did it because she could and because of that she was not a good choice. Even if I was to be alone forever. At the time I think I really felt like I would be, I wanted to be, so it was really giving up on ever meeting anyone again. It was damn hard, the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I was an am a very committed person. I was deeply bonded to that woman. It felt like dying. This is why I am so passionate about it. At first, I was convinced my life was over and I would never feel the same kind of happiness again. Thank God that people helped me be brave and take a leap of faith. Now I pay it forward.
> 
> ...



No misunderstanding here. You weren't married. You dodged a bullet. But technically, until you walked down that wedding aisle and took vows she {and you} were still free to date anyone else you wanted. She was your girlfriend/fiance that made nothing more than a verbal promise to, at some point in the future, enter into a marital commitment. This isn't TalkAboutYourFiance so your experience is mostly irrelevant and certainly not comparable to a betrayed spouse dealing with years of real marital commitment and sharing a marital life together including children. I'm not saying you weren't hurt. It wasn't nice of her to date {or forincate with} others without telling you but I presume when you say you were "deeply bonded to that woman" I'm guessing that meant you were living with her and/or having sex with her and the consequences of your sins fell exactly where God said they would. In other words, you are indicating she lacked character and was forever tainted by her choices to fornicate with another man whereas your choices to fornicate with her {again, I'm presuming ~ correct me if I'm wrong} did/does not reflect poorly on your character {at the time ~ or forever since no one gets a break in your world}. 

As far as your father is concerned, you still love him and believe he's great though he seems to remain unrepentant. I disagree and think that belief is probably pretty hurtful to your mother. But it's a bit ironic you cut him a break and maintain a relationship with him despite what he did to you and your mother, while insisting all others must completely disassociate with their wayward spouses pretty much regardless of their "context". You even point out the hurt and damage done to you, their child, by both of them during this period and such damage can often be minimized, reversed or avoided entirely by an exceptional recovery wherein both spouses become much better persons, parents AND spouses. 

In my opinion, repentance doesn't take all that much work. It's a gift from God that some take a long time to process and others can grasp rather quickly.

I'm also super surprised such a rigid guy like you with such strong opinions on the subject of infidelity/adultery would hero worship a seemingly unrepentant adulterer like chumpcheaterlady who cheated on her first husband.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator notice:-*
> 
> I am not convinced that this thread is serving any real purpose.
> 
> ...


Sorry friend. Just saw this.

I'm done here. 

Though I did want to indicate that I can and absolutely did conceive of leaving the spouse that cheated on me. We were done. I interviewed lawyers and was a phone call away from filing. I just think it's every betrayed spouses right to choose what they want {if they get a choice} and that 'happiness' {and/or contentment} can be found either way.

Moving on.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> No misunderstanding here. You weren't married. You dodged a bullet. But technically, until you walked down that wedding aisle and took vows she {and you} were still free to date anyone else you wanted. She was your girlfriend/fiance that made nothing more than a verbal promise to, at some point in the future, enter into a marital commitment. This isn't TalkAboutYourFiance so your experience is mostly irrelevant and certainly not comparable to a betrayed spouse dealing with years of real marital commitment and sharing a marital life together including children. I'm not saying you weren't hurt. It wasn't nice of her to date {or forincate with} others without telling you but I presume when you say you were "deeply bonded to that woman" I'm guessing that meant you were living with her and/or having sex with her and the consequences of your sins fell exactly where God said they would. In other words, you are indicating she lacked character and was forever tainted by her choices to fornicate with another man whereas your choices to fornicate with her {again, I'm presuming ~ correct me if I'm wrong} did/does not reflect poorly on your character {at the time ~ or forever since no one gets a break in your world}.
> 
> As far as your father is concerned, you still love him and believe he's great though he seems to remain unrepentant. I disagree and think that belief is probably pretty hurtful to your mother. But it's a bit ironic you cut him a break and maintain a relationship with him despite what he did to you and your mother, while insisting all others must completely disassociate with their wayward spouses pretty much regardless of their "context". You even point out the hurt and damage done to you, their child, by both of them during this period and such damage can often be minimized, reversed or avoided entirely by an exceptional recovery wherein both spouses become much better persons, parents AND spouses.
> 
> ...


My opinion is irrelevant to you because I don't agree with you, as is always the case with people you don't agree with you here on this board. You my friend are a pip as my Mother would say, I have seen more then one of your defensive posts to understand how worked up you get when people disagree with you on reconciliation. Anyway repentance still comes with have consequences. I hope the WS earnestly repents to me this is completely irrelevant to if the marriage should be continued or not. 

If my father was my wife I would have cut him out of my life (because the power dynamic would be different) but he is my father so his infidelity affects me much differently. He is not even my friend in the sense I had no choice in the relationship. If he was just my friend I would also probably would have cut him off, though I do love his friendship. 

Not that it didn't hurt me. His legacy is that his only son talks about his lack of character and how it affected his life. This would be a terrible legacy to me, probably one that would be almost too awful to bare. I am not sure how he feels about it. 

I can also say as being a child of divorce, this would make me more likely to divorce because I know kids can survive and thrive even through all the sorrows that come from it. Staying to avoid divorces at any cost is a very bad decision. This doesn't mean I agree with divorcing for minor things. Actually the only things I agree with divorcing for is abuse and willful neglect. 

Finally I don't hero worship anyone my friend. I agree with CL philosophy, and if she cheated on her first husband I hope he dumped her too. 

You seem to think my motives are about punishing WS, that is not the case, I hate to see people who have no idea what life could be like accepting so much less. Living with someone you could never rationally trust it a terrible way to live. Live is hard enough your spouse is supposed to be your partner not your burden. With my thoughts on this the WS is basically irrelevant. 

You and I whole heartily agree on one thing, every BS has the right to choose. 

Anyway close the thread if you want Matt-x2, but freedom from infidelity should be discussed and advocated on here just as much as Reconciliation is by the white nights out there. It's good to have both opinions, and both should be argued just as vigorously. SI doesn't allow that, what makes this place different is that it does. 

I get that it makes you and other uncomfortable, but you can tell from the likes many on here agree with me. We should be allowed to have a voice and be able to discuss it. If some don't like the discussion they can leave the thread.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> If my father was my wife I would have cut him out of my life (because the power dynamic would be different) but he is my father so his *infertility* affects me much differently. He is not even my friend in the sense I had no choice in the relationship. If he was just my friend I would also probably would have cut him off, though I do love his friendship.


"his infertility" ~ wow.

That made me LOL. 

Peace.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> "his infertility" ~ wow.
> 
> That made me LOL.
> 
> Peace.



Thanks, stupid spell check. Correcting my spelling doesn't make your argument any stronger.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

Yikes!!! What must you think of me then!? I had H take a poly and he failed....we went to take another and the examiner refused to do it saying he didnt think it would help the issue.....H has said that he will submit to a third and a fourth if necessary....

At this point I am staying. I want to know that I've done everything I can towards saving this marriage. I recognize that I have also destroyed his trust (I had an A 25 years ago) and he is more than willing to forgive me. He has been willing to go to MC, IC, church marital classes, a weekend marital workshop that was waaaay out of his comfort zone, he was willing to take 2 polys and will submit to a third and a fourth if it helps me heal. He is a wonderful father, he has become a wonderful husband. But he lies. I dont know if he can even help it. Perhaps its a compulsion. I need to decide if I can live with that. I need to decide that my happiness is not dependent on whether or not he tells the truth. I need to decide to live a full happy life.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Thanks, stupid spell check. Correcting my spelling doesn't make your argument any stronger.


I was being light-hearted and not ridiculing, arguing or criticizing you. It was funny.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

nursejackie said:


> Yikes!!! What must you think of me then!? I had H take a poly and he failed....we went to take another and the examiner refused to do it saying he didnt think it would help the issue.....H has said that he will submit to a third and a fourth if necessary....
> 
> At this point I am staying. I want to know that I've done everything I can towards saving this marriage. I recognize that I have also destroyed his trust (I had an A 25 years ago) and he is more than willing to forgive me. He has been willing to go to MC, IC, church marital classes, a weekend marital workshop that was waaaay out of his comfort zone, he was willing to take 2 polys and will submit to a third and a fourth if it helps me heal. He is a wonderful father, he has become a wonderful husband. But he lies. I dont know if he can even help it. Perhaps its a compulsion. I need to decide if I can live with that. I need to decide that my happiness is not dependent on whether or not he tells the truth. I need to decide to live a full happy life.


I don't think anything bad about you. However he can be a wonderful father without repeatedly lying to his wife. And I think it's tragic that both of you have hurt each other so badly. To be honest I am also kind in favor of people who both cheat staying together because then someone who doesn't isn't exposed to the danger.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> My opinion is irrelevant to you because I don't agree with you, as is always the case with people you don't agree with you here on this board. You my friend are a pip as my Mother would say, I have seen more then one of your defensive posts to understand how worked up you get when people disagree with you on reconciliation. Anyway repentance still comes with have consequences. I hope the WS earnestly repents to me this is completely irrelevant to if the marriage should be continued or not.
> 
> If my father was my wife I would have cut him out of my life (because the power dynamic would be different) but he is my father so his infidelity affects me much differently. He is not even my friend in the sense I had no choice in the relationship. If he was just my friend I would also probably would have cut him off, though I do love his friendship.
> 
> ...


To say that Chumplady cheated on her first husband is an example of stretching the veracity of what reportedly happened at that time.

So take that with a healthy pinch of salt.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I'm sorry As'laDain, you are not going to like my answer but I feel like having to learn your wives body language to know for sure if she is lying is not a happy thing. I don't see that as a good situation, you have effectively changed the nature of your relationship and now you have to oversee her. This is not a judgment of you, it's how I feel about it. Again these type of answers always just reinforce my opinion that that are better possibilities out there.
> 
> For instance, even when the WS is repentant, your relationship is taken over by the affair, it affects everything even your kids because so much emotional energy is expended on trying to fix this pile of 5hit that is dropped in the middle of your life. Some WS are paralyzed by shame for years, again then you are married to a person who is paralyzed with shame. So again the BS loses do to no fault of their own. The dynamic is never a healthy one. At least if the BS leaves there is the possibility of meeting someone else who is healthy therefore one person and situation that the child can model that is a healthy one.
> 
> Sorry, I just don't see it as anything but less than what it could have been, except when the marriage was so awful, like verbal abuse, maybe then it can be a better relationship than what it was. But then again I don't think anyone should stay in a relationship when there is any kind of abuse, physical or verbal.


while i appreciate your concern, i assure you that i am just fine. my marriage is not one that you understand. none of my marital history would make sense to you. i didn't get married for love and i barely knew my wife when i married her. naturally, you would wonder if i would be happier if i married a girl that i actually loved BEFORE the marriage(i did eventually fall in love with my wife). maybe? anythings possible. but really, i see no need to spend time thinking about that. i am happy with my life as i am. i love my wife, i love our daughter, and i see no reason to dwell on thoughts of what my life would be like without her.

with how difficult it seems to be for you to understand a marriage like mine, i imagine it is just as difficult for you to understand how i think. you probably think that i am in denial about some remnant pain from my wife's affair. truth is, it doesn't bother me at all. no pain, no mind movies, nothing. thinking about it raises about as much emotional response from me as trying to remember which airline i flew on five years ago.

i did not get married to become happy. the biggest reason i got married was to share joy. i learned how to fall in love with my wife, whom i could barely stand at the time. together we changed. together we grew. 

and together we will stay.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I feel as though I am wandering into a conversation that is so familiar to you all that you know your parts off pat. For what it’s worth, I’m with this guy …



MattMatt said:


> We know some people cannot conceive of remaining with a spouse who cheated on them.
> We know some people cannot conceive of leaving the spouse that cheated on them.


But I’d like to share a lesson that I learned not so long ago. And it involves breastfeeding – I’m sorry if that makes any of you feel uncomfortable, but bear with me (so close to a pun here, so close). 

Before I had kids, I had strong opinions about breastfeeding. It was clearly the best choice and anyone who chose not to do it was not making the best choice for their baby. Obviously, because I try not to make myself universally unpopular, I didn’t actually say this to any of the mothers I was quietly judging.

But then I had my first child. And of course I battled (because fate has a special place for the smug). So did he. We soldiered on for several weeks, him and I. Eventually, as I sat in a doctor’s office in tears, stuck in a loop of guilt and obligation, I made the choice to stop. And just like that, my life got easier. Not easy, just easier.

So I had learned my lesson - whenever anyone speaks about breastfeeding, I always have the same response. “Good for you.” And I mean it.
“I never even tried breastfeeding. The thought was just too weird.” – “Good for you”
“I am so into breastfeeding, I feel so connected with my baby” – “Good for you”

I could go on. But I’m sure you get my drift. So, perhaps you are wondering why I think that this has anything to do with this thread? (And a half gold star to anyone who has read this far and thinks it has something to do with the whole “Don’t judge anyone (or presume to tell them what to do) until you have walked a mile in their shoes …” thing.) But it was also something more. After my experience, when I met mothers who were close to making the same decision, I really wanted to tell them what to do. When I met others with different views, I wanted so badly to bring them round to my way of thinking. Because my way was so clearly right. I had learned so much that I wanted to share, to help. 

Only I finally realised that, for me, it wasn’t actually about helping at all. It was more that convincing someone else to do what I did validated my own decision further. Because consensus is very empowering. If other people agree with me, then I must be really right … right? 

I’m not saying that anyone suggesting one way or the other (see above) in the great “Kick them to the kerb” or “Fight for your marriage” debate is actually just trying to validate their own position. I just know that if I tried to tell someone that their decision was wrong (and it wasn’t the same as mine), I’d be worried that that might be my reason. And that there’s a fine line between offering constructive advice to someone based on your own experiences, and judging them because they make a different choice to you.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

sokillme said:


> I don't think anything bad about you. However he can be a wonderful father without repeatedly lying to his wife. And I think it's tragic that both of you have hurt each other so badly. To be honest I am also kind in favor of people who both cheat staying together because then someone who doesn't isn't exposed to the danger.


It is tragic that we have both hurt each other so badly. It would also be tragic to throw away 32 years of marriage over comparitively small chunks of very bad behaviour without a great deal of effort to save it. BOTH parties so desperately want to. We would not be submitting ourselves to this somewhat tortuous journey if we didnt think that "we" as a couple were worth the fight.

It may be easier to throw out a disparaging inference (if thats such a thing - we are so dangerously awful we deserve each other....) than to empathize with a view that is different than your own.

Each person who experiences infidelity has their own very unique set of circumstances. Although the script may follow similar paths when they get to that fork in the road the path chosen is dependent on many things that differ.

- are they both willing and able to make changes to improve the marriage- no A takes place in a vacuum (the BS is NOT responsible for the A but did contribute to the state of the marriage)

-are they both willing and able to forgive what the other has done and eventually move forward

-do they both have the strength and capacity to love while weathering the early years of rollercoaster emotions

-are they both open to MC, IC, as routes to improve their roles as a partners and develop personal growth 

-can they both accept the changes in themselves and the marriage that will have to happen to make the "new" marriage work

-is there enough self love to understand that their happiness comes from within and is not dependent on a partner (of any sort). so that they make the decision to stay based on knowledge, insight, reflection and love-not out of fear or desperation. (the one I'm working on)


BOTH parties have to say yes to all of the above in order for there to be a successful reconciliation. It can take a long time to gain the full realization of what will be needed to successfully reconcile. One or the other party may make a different choice and opt out during the process. Their choice.

It is often said the "heavy lifting" has to be done by the WS but I think the BS is also subjected to a great deal of their own heavy lifting. Not fair but true. 

If H and I get through this we will have gained a better understanding of each other as a partner. We will have made substantial personal growth. We will have a deeper healthier love to live out the rest of our days together. We will have experienced an intimacy that we would not have experienced without going through this together. We will be stronger as individuals and as a couple. 

So I guess when all is said and done.......we do deserve each other (not because we are too dangerous- but because we are equally willing to keep trying till we get it right)...and I'm ok with that.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Have you been cheated on? Have the rest of you expounding this crap been cheated on??
> 
> How many of you have read my story?
> 
> Do I strike you as the kind of person has 'dampened their soul'???


And have you read my story? Are you familiar with any of the details of my R? Or for that matter, anyone else's?

I ask again, @sokillme and @browser: Can you please answer these questions?? Because if neither of you has actually been cheated on I think you need to just stop thinking that you have ANY clue what is entailed.

And as far as this goes


sokillme said:


> Anyway close the thread if you want Matt-x2, but freedom from infidelity should be discussed and advocated on here just as much as Reconciliation is by the white nights out there. It's good to have both opinions, and both should be argued just as vigorously. SI doesn't allow that, what makes this place different is that it does.
> 
> I get that it makes you and other uncomfortable, but you can tell from the likes many on here agree with me. We should be allowed to have a voice and be able to discuss it. If some don't like the discussion they can leave the thread.


You aren't discussing 'freedom from infidelity'. You aren't discussing anything. You're haranguing people who have chosen reconciliation in a condescending manner in order to advance your agenda of superiority. There really is no other reason than that. You slither out from under things by ignoring what you don't want to answer and twisting what you do answer. It's been happening here on TAM for years. People, for whatever reason, decide that anyone who stays with a cheater is inferior to them and have to brag about how they would NEVER do so themselves, meanwhile they've never had to live through it, they've only considered it abstractly. So yes, as someone in R who has none of the feelings that you are trying to tell me I should have, it pisses me off. Why this thread isn't closed I have no idea, unless the mods also want you to answer my questions


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> I ask again, @sokillme and @browser: Can you please answer these questions?? Because if neither of you has actually been cheated on I think you need to just stop thinking that you have ANY clue what is entailed.


These people are similar to badblood in that all they do is troll for arguments. It's no use discussing anything with them and it would be better to add them to our ignore lists.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> And have you read my story? Are you familiar with any of the details of my R? Or for that matter, anyone else's?
> 
> I ask again, @sokillme and @browser: Can you please answer these questions?? Because if neither of you has actually been cheated on I think you need to just stop thinking that you have ANY clue what is entailed.


You don't really seek answers to your questions from me and the other poster with whom you disagree. You are simply looking for reasons to discredit our advice because it differs from your own and you are looking for reasons to attack the poster rather than the argument, which is known as the "strawman" approach. Sorry, just not going there.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> And have you read my story? Are you familiar with any of the details of my R? Or for that matter, anyone else's?
> 
> I ask again, @sokillme and @browser: Can you please answer these questions?? Because if neither of you has actually been cheated on I think you need to just stop thinking that you have ANY clue what is entailed.
> 
> ...


I read your story last time we had these discussions and you asked me to if you remember. One success story doesn't change my mind. I am glad you are one of the rare ones. I feel much worse for the other poor people on the boards I pointed out where they are constantly encouraged to continue in pain. 

The only one on here attacking people is you attacking me here. You just don't like what I say so you call me names and stuff. You don't have to like what I say, and you don't even need to read this thread if you don't like it. People have answered my questions and I have responded. I never called anyone inferior, and I am not bragging about anything. I have never called anyone anything. I have made judgments about people's actions, not them personally. I didn't even mention myself until I was asked, except in the context of what I feel about polygraphs and such. 

Again if this thread triggers you why do you keep posting on it? It seems to me you are posting to silence me because you don't like what I am saying, that's not fair. I don't come on posts where you discuss stuff and demand to close them because I don't like the subject matter. The political post on this board are way more heated for instance. I don't see anyone on there asking to close them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> while i appreciate your concern, i assure you that i am just fine. my marriage is not one that you understand. none of my marital history would make sense to you. i didn't get married for love and i barely knew my wife when i married her. naturally, you would wonder if i would be happier if i married a girl that i actually loved BEFORE the marriage(i did eventually fall in love with my wife). maybe? anythings possible. but really, i see no need to spend time thinking about that. i am happy with my life as i am. i love my wife, i love our daughter, and i see no reason to dwell on thoughts of what my life would be like without her.
> 
> with how difficult it seems to be for you to understand a marriage like mine, i imagine it is just as difficult for you to understand how i think. you probably think that i am in denial about some remnant pain from my wife's affair. truth is, it doesn't bother me at all. no pain, no mind movies, nothing. thinking about it raises about as much emotional response from me as trying to remember which airline i flew on five years ago.
> 
> ...


I think everyone is entitled to give their opinion on the matter but my feeling is that maybe if you weren't in love with your wife when she cheated and were basically learning to "stand" her in your words the cheating didn't effect you as much as it would someone who was deeply in love. So maybe it was much easier for you to recover from it. 

See now, even it this is the case I believe you have every right to give your opinion on the subject but I have to ask my friends on here like @Quality, since my not being cheated on while married discredit my thoughts on this subject, does As's not following the standard western path to marriage not discredit his in your mind? Or is it just people who don't' agree with you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mizzbak said:


> I feel as though I am wandering into a conversation that is so familiar to you all that you know your parts off pat. For what it’s worth, I’m with this guy …
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See I see it very differently. I see it as watching someone slowly starving themselves and no one is giving them the food they need to really get better.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I read your story last time we had these discussions and you asked me to if you remember. One success story doesn't change my mind. I am glad you are one of the rare ones. I feel much worse for the other poor people on the boards I pointed out where they are constantly encouraged to continue in pain.
> 
> The only one on here attacking people is you attacking me here. You just don't like what I say so you call me names and stuff. You don't have to like what I say, and you don't even need to read this thread if you don't like it. People have answered my questions and I have responded. I never called anyone inferior, and I am not bragging about anything. I have never called anyone anything. I have made judgments about people's actions, not them personally. I didn't even mention myself until I was asked, except in the context of what I feel about polygraphs and such.
> 
> Again if this thread triggers you why do you keep posting on it? It seems to me you are posting to silence me because you don't like what I am saying, that's not fair. I don't come on posts where you discuss stuff and demand to close them because I don't like the subject matter. The political post on this board are way more heated for instance. I don't see anyone on there asking to close them.


If you were truly trying to encourage people then WHY do you keep saying that YOU would never stay with one WHEN YOU HAVE NEVER GONE THROUGH IT?!?!?!?!?! That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. It's not even anecdotal - it's purely theoretical. You've never been cheated on so WHY do you feel the need to say what YOU would do when it's has no bearing on what anyone else will or should do? It's condescending and counterproductive, and new BS's just feel even MORE like crap for being totally undecided. It's FAR more helpful to say what you HAVE done, like I do and other BS"s do, and what you might have done differently. For someone to come in here and start lecturing everyone on what they WOULD do is nothing but spouting off from the top of a pedestal that you've put yourself on. As far as triggering me, no it doesn't trigger me, it just pisses me off.



browser said:


> You don't really seek answers to your questions from me and the other poster with whom you disagree. You are simply looking for reasons to discredit our advice because it differs from your own and you are looking for reasons to attack the poster rather than the argument, which is known as the "strawman" approach. Sorry, just not going there.


In other words you HAVE NOT BEEN CHEATED ON. Please see above and STOP trying to lecture BS's based on your theoretical actions. 

You two might even think you're being helpful (if I give you the benefit of the doubt) but you are NOT.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> See I see it very differently. I see it as watching someone slowly starving themselves and no one is giving them the food they need to really get better.


I see it as someone needing nutrition and you telling them that they need a smoke. You have NO CLUE what they need.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I think everyone is entitled to give their opinion on the matter but my feeling is that maybe if you weren't in love with your wife when she cheated and were basically learning to "stand" her in your words the cheating didn't effect you as much as it would someone who was deeply in love. So maybe it was much easier for you to recover from it.
> 
> See now, even it this is the case I believe you have every right to give your opinion on the subject but I have to ask my friends on here like @Quality, since my not being cheated on while married discredit my thoughts on this subject, does As's not following the standard western path to marriage not discredit his in your mind? Or is it just people who don't' agree with you.


I think everyone is entitled TO an opinion and some opinions are better than others. However, "giving" your opinion is at the discretion of your owner's of this forum and the wise people they put in charge. None of us has the right to free speech here. TAM owns this space and is entitled to shut down any opinion or persona they chose at any time. 

I can understand why you feel the way you do and understand you feel adequately experienced with infidelity to share your strong opinions on the subject but if your "thoughts on this subject" were truly consistent you wouldn't love, be friends with or have anything to do with your father. 

This quote from you yesterday is nothing more than rationalizations and justifications. 



sokillme said:


> If my father was my wife I would have cut him out of my life (because the power dynamic would be different) but he is my father so his infidelity affects me much differently. He is not even my friend in the sense I had no choice in the relationship. If he was just my friend I would also probably would have cut him off, though I do love his friendship. Not that it didn't hurt me. His legacy is that his only son talks about his lack of character and how it affected his life. This would be a terrible legacy to me, probably one that would be almost too awful to bare. I am not sure how he feels about it.



{sarcasm} In the back of your mind it must be awful painful every time you see your seemingly unrepentant father. Is it fear of losing your father that keeps you in this sick abusive relationship?? This is the same father that abandoned you as a child and abused you and your mother, isn't it; and, yet, you're friends with him???? Trust me, I dumped my cheating girlfriend in college and ghosted her and things turned out great for me so you really need to be encouraged by that to disassociate yourself completely from your wayward father lacking of all character as soon as possible. I want better for you. I guarantee your life will be so much better without him. You're not even sure how he feels about the whole subject which means you're probably one of those weak rug sweepers too even though every time you look at him you certainly triggers. {/sarcasm} I'm being purposefully obtuse. I don't really care if you are friends with your father. You want to keep having your dad in your life and have accepted his weak constitution to such a level you don't even bring it up and probably rarely think about it {though it never goes away}. I'm just making an example of how individuals, including you, seemingly weigh their own wants, desires, needs and circumstances to decide to reconcile and maintain relations with an abusive wayward lacking character to some degree or another and your father hasn't even {it appears} repented for his sins. 

A further example, perhaps, of exactly how your limited direct experience "discredits" your opinion. If my wife went for a breast exam and was diagnosed with breast cancer we'd be pretty upset and, of course, set out to google all the information we could gather from the internet on her particular circumstances {unique yet so similar with so many other women that have experienced the same thing}. In desperation and after hours of research, no doubt, we'd stumble upon some discussion and support forums. We would be upset, afraid and desperately looking to extract some understanding about our situation from the presumed medical professionals and/or other women that have experienced actual breast cancer and are equal with and/or further down the process than us newbies. What we wouldn't need is some supposedly well intentioned poster who's mother had breast cancer 20-30 years ago {even if you knew a ton about her treatment and such ~ it's not that relevant} or had a former girlfriend 13 years ago that experienced breast cancer and such poster set out to tell us there was only one healthy, moral, correct way for us, complete strangers {to him}, to handle our particular situation. It would get even more ridiculous if such poster then went around telling every other breast cancer patient and their loved ones that sharing or encouraging another alternative or course of action, no matter how thoughtfully, empathetically or carefully presented, was immoral and hurtful. 

Finally, exactly how does a man, happily married for 13 years and, I presume, 15 plus years since such man's ex-fiance cheated on him {which apparently worked out for him} end up as the spokesman for the "cheaters never change, kick them to the curb" crowd. Does your wife know you are spending all this time and emotional energy based upon hang up's and trauma you still feel and carry around due to what your ex-fiance did to you? How do you even relate to the posters on CL that are so angry and mad venting about their current situations and all you have to offer is discussing how your ex-girlfriend cheated on you 15 years ago and you broke up while they are dealing with financial destruction, devastated kids and all the consequences of a real adultery calamity??? Are you for real {not saying I think or know you are but if you're just trolling for kicks sore about being banned again and again, ironically, the "immoral", "unhealthy", "hurtful", "you're attacking me" and "lack of character" finger pointing you've undertaken here turns right back around on you}.

Hopefully NOW I'm done. Sorry again MattMatt.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I see it as someone needing nutrition and you telling them that they need a smoke. You have NO CLUE what they need.


Yeah but you do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> If you were truly trying to encourage people then WHY do you keep saying that YOU would never stay with one WHEN YOU HAVE NEVER GONE THROUGH IT?!?!?!?!?! That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with it. It's not even anecdotal - it's purely theoretical.


I have been cheated on, are you even reading my post or are you just yelling at me. I post about it on this thread. I have never been cheated on by my wife. 

Did you husband take a polygraph, if not then all you comments are purely theoretical too. Quit with the semantics.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I think everyone is entitled TO an opinion and some opinions are better than others. However, "giving" your opinion is at the discretion of your owner's of this forum and the wise people they put in charge. None of us has the right to free speech here. TAM owns this space and is entitled to shut down any opinion or persona they chose at any time.
> 
> I can understand why you feel the way you do and understand you feel adequately experienced with infidelity to share your strong opinions on the subject but if your "thoughts on this subject" were truly consistent you wouldn't love, be friends with or have anything to do with your father.
> 
> ...





> I think everyone is entitled TO an opinion and some opinions are better than others.


Yeah the ones you agree with are better. The ones that you don't you try to silence. 

You are kind of nasty person on here you know that? Making assumptions and nasty accusations about about my relationship with my father that way, then hiding behind sarcasm. Telling me how dysfunctional I am. I have never said a word about who you are as a person (or anyone else) until now. You don't make arguments you make insults and nasty accusations. You don't even say why my arguments are wrong, nope you say how I have no right to make them because of some presumed history that you make up in your head. Or lack of experience. 

This is about the 3rd time you have just assumed some nonsense that is far from the truth. Then you project it on me in the most nastiest of fashion. I have seen you do it with others before. When you don't like the arguments people make you always resort to bulling and personal attacks. I'm done with you, but as usual you have proven what a great guy you are quality, always going low. Is your user name {sarcasm}. 

Thanks for the grammar check though.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The best part of this thread is I stated my opinion that staying with someone who lies to you to the point that you need a machine to see if they are telling the truth, is not a good healthy idea and 3 people basically attack my character, relationship with my parents, and even marriage. This being a common sense opinion that probably 99% of the world holds before it happens to them, and 85% would hold after. 

If there is any doubt that someone needs to advocate it, this post proves it, because people who hold opinions like mine are attacked viciously, told their advocacy are invalid, told they no right to them, and then shouted down. All to make sure these opinion can't be spoken. I am starting to think people misguidedly feel like any opinion somehow invalidates their own reconciliation. It's an opinion everybody has got them. 

Just like SI, people who are trying to reconcile never want to here any ideas that differ from that point of view even if the poster is not even directly addressing the offended party. SI just goes the extra step and the moderators delete the posts.

@MattMatt close the post if you want, I am tired of arguing. We are not even discussing the subject of the post anymore, just what a bad guy these people think I am.

edit: Posts like this are why I made this post here. Character is character.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The best part of this thread is I stated my opinion that staying with someone who lies to you to the point that you need a machine to see if they are telling the truth, is not a good healthy idea and 3 people basically attack my character, relationship with my parents, and even marriage. This being a common sense opinion that probably 99% of the world holds before it happens to them, and 85% would hold after.
> 
> If there is any doubt that someone needs to advocate it, this post proves it, because people who hold opinions like mine are attacked viciously, told their advocacy are invalid, told they no right to them, and then shouted down. All to make sure these opinion can't be spoken. I am starting to think people misguidedly feel like any opinion somehow invalidates their own reconciliation. It's an opinion everybody has got them.
> 
> ...


I love where he says his wife had a "slip"two years ago.This guy on SI is an idiot and will no doubt forgive his cheating btich of a wife again when she comes home.I found your thread really interesting from a technical point of view but if I was in the situation that needed a polygraph then I would just call it quits.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

lordmayhem said:


> These people are similar to badblood in that all they do is troll for arguments. It's no use discussing anything with them and it would be better to add them to our ignore lists.


I too think they are trolling for arguments....I think we should all opt out then they have no-one to argue with. 

Nothing new to learn here boys...move along everyone.....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*MODERATOR ANNOUNCEMENT:-*

This thread is now serving no useful purpose.

Some people can cope with the concept of reconciliation. Whereas some can't cope with the concept of reconciliation.

And that's all there is to it.

Attacks on people who can cope with the concept of reconciliation are extremely unhelpful and do not belong on Talk About Marriage or Coping With Infidelity.

For help regarding the posting and social discourse rules at TAM please refer to these links:-

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/2117-forum-rules-please-read-first.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...es-coping-infidelity-section-please-read.html


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