# If it werent for the kids...need some support.



## RollerCoasterRide (Sep 8, 2014)

I need some support on this recent flare up between the wife and I (sex related but broadens into entire relationship). Very quick back story from my other posts...wife never wants sex, lacks physical-emotional connection, have tried everything including talks, my last effort was to try games with sexual themes which she did but showed no effort in making her own or continuing my ideas so that fizzled. She has in the past yelled at me for "bugging" her for sex...bugging defined as asking twice in a day.

So after the games idea fizzled it went back to like once a month sex with me initiating and doing any moving whatsoever during sex. She got invited to an online toy and sexy clothing thing (where you buy stuff from people and they get free stuff for it) and she actually bought something...which i thought was a giant leap in the right direction. Then last night hits. I get home before bed and ask if she wants to do anything before bed. She says no she hasn't showered, so I said okay and went to shower. I was totally in the mood though and self pleasure was not going to cut it. So I thought I'd ask for a BJ or HJ. So we go up to bed and I get close to her with a smile, wrap my arms around her and say "Hey you". Her reply is "really? ugh". So i walk away. I say "why do you do that all the time? why do you respond to me getting close by making it seem like I'm bugging you?" She starts to raise her voice saying "I already said no once why are you even asking? You always bug me by asking after I've said no". (Let's forget the fact that 95% of the time it's NO) I say "I'm not going to get into an argument where i have to defend getting close and suggesting intimacy to my wife". Then she has the NERVE to say:

"Well we should talk I don't want to have to go through another *in whiny voice* 'we never have sex' talk again"

I said "are you kidding me?" and humored her by actually going into the argument...knowing she was going to lash out as i tried to keep it from turning into a fight. I said "and i wasn't even going to ask for sex I was going to ask for a BJ, god forbid i ask" I said "this is why I'm even scared to ask because you throw up a wall every time i do...not even knowing what i want". Then she replied:

"Well what am I supposed to do be a detective?"

I had enough of the smartass replies. I had enough of this argument over and over. Enough of her low drive, throwing up walls, not caring about my needs or emotions. I actually got out of bed and slept on the couch. She came down once and I just told her "go away, I'm finished with this issue. You are absolutely TOXIC and I refuse to be slapped around like this."

I swear if we did not have two small kids that probably would have been the break up right there. Yes it's my fault for having them with a wife who doesn't care for me but they are here and I love them to death. But more and more i keep asking myself to stop playing over and over in my head what I dont like about her, and say what I do like...and more and more the list gets shorter. She has no hobbies, she's not interested in getting any. She has no sex drive, or life drive. She's a good mom but I've seen her totally treat the kids the wrong way...and I have a suspicion all day she just watches TV and gets on the computer and doesn't interact with them. So what does she have...a decent mom who doesnt spend all our money and is okay to be around unless i feel intimate?

But I think what else am I supposed to do even if I did divorce? I hear horror stories about dating websites. I don't really meet girls often at work (the guy to girl ratio is like 50:1, old to young ratio like 10:1)...and i work in a group of 10 people. So stay together for the kids? We're supposed to move into a new house soon too but now I'm thinking should I do that? I just need some support. I feel so stuck. And I cant stand to see her walk around all day today with an attitude like she was in the right last night...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Sometimes the best thing for everyone is divorce. You'll still love and see your kids, you'll probably meet someone (online dating isn't that hard if you're a good man - and not too fat or too ugly and have a job, at least!), you'll be happier, the kids will be exposed to a less stressful and unhappy environment, and will - hopefully - eventually get to see your example of a GOOD and loving relationship.


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## RollerCoasterRide (Sep 8, 2014)

Yes. A long kiss when i get home (i have to hold her there or itll be a peck). A kiss whenever one of us leaves. Butt slaps, massages, foot massages, slide my hands across her hips if i walk by. At least...thats how it used to be. Didnt help matters and ppl even said dont do those things...to try and not constantly worship her and say and tell her shes sexy to see if the abscence lures her in. It didnt


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Sounds to me like you're ready for divorce, but the fear of trying to find someone else is what's holding you back more than anything. If kids or fear of the future is all that's holding you in a marriage, then your marriage is a sham.

Give her a chance to get into some serious marriage counseling with you--or extricate yourself. From what you describe about the way she speaks to you, it sounds pretty disrespectful. There are ways to reject someone without the kind of language your wife uses. And I know a thing or two about being turned down.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Sounds like the person I share my bed with. I can respect the fear of putting your kids into a divorced situation. Scary as hell.

I'd strongly suggest marriage counseling. Should you go that route, be prepared for a scenario where she thinks the counseling is overblown and or is not her fault. If this is not the case, then you will both gain a lot. If this is the case, then consider absorbing and utilizing counseling for yourself as much as possible. 

Regardless of marriage counseling, you should consider the concept that she is likely getting what she wants while not considering what you want. I would continue to be an active participant in the household and parenting realm (assuming you are now). On the flip side, if she doesnt want to give you anything more than sarcasm for a "why", then I'd consider giving her less of the things "healthy couples" give one another. She thinks your needs are a joke, so you should revisit how much you continue to fullfill her needs.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

You know its time.

Get your ducks in a row! Then quit wasting your life being with a woman who has no idea that life isn't all about her.


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## Uglee70 (Jan 2, 2009)

What is your wifes name? I think we married the same woman!


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Sounds like it's time for you to cut the princess loose.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Sounds like you have not read the MMSLP.
Get it. Read it. Follow it.
Do NOT fight with her. Focus on yourself. Get busy working out and doing other guy stuff. Join a yoga class, and see who is up for coffee afterwards.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If I said no to sex, I wouldn't want to be asked for a BJ after we were in bed. If it was an option I would mention it or at the very least keep it to 1 initiation where you cover everything
ex- "No, I haven't showered" "Ok, up for a BJ or HJ?"
*the very best for me would be "That's ok, how about I run you a nice bubble bath and you can relax a bit?" or "alright, I'll start the shower. Meet you in there" *
"Can I get a Bj or Hj then" would say "I want to use you to get off, this isn't about being romantic and intimate with you, I just need a place to put it"


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

So, she already turned you down for sex, and then you "bug her" for a HJ or a BJ? Since when is a HJ or a BJ NOT sex???

And I agree with Slowlygoingcrazy, that by asking her for a BJ or a H after she turned you down for sex says to her that you just want to use her to get you off. 

Meanwhile, Lila asked you if you show your wife any physical affection without expecting sex and she gave you some examples, such as hand holding, hugging and kissing. In turn, you told us that you "have to hold her there" for a long kiss. Perhaps she feels like she's being FORCED to do something she's not interested in doing, and the REASON she's not interested is because she's feeling FORCED. You also mentioned "butt slaps". My late husband did that to me, and I absolutely HATED it. Maybe your wife does too...

I dunno OP. Your whole attitude and approach just seems to be...off.


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## RollerCoasterRide (Sep 8, 2014)

Fozzy-thanks again i always value your opinion. The '...your marriage is a sham' thing did hit home. You are right. Ive never been one to break up. When dating i even had some bad relationships that i clung to for way too long. I guess i need to plan out the rest of this then. Id hate to end it without at least suggesting counseling. This is the hardest thing ive faced in a long time

Tommyr-i have not read that one. I did read no more mister nice guy...and while alot didnt apply i did take away two very important keys, no more covert contracts and I am the only person i need to please

Slowly-in this very singular case you are right i needed some physical attention. But 1) this follows a huge history of NOs for sex as in both of us get some 2) id be more than happy to please her too, or just her at any time 3) i dont think asking more than once deserves that kind of response 4) and her reason for no sex was she didnt shower...which would not have excluded what i was asking for so im not asking a second time. 

Vega-you are entitled to that opinion but your logic that she hates it because shes forced and she is forced to because she hates it is circular. Forced was not the best word to use. Our kisses turned into pecks so i try to purposely kiss for at least a second or two to remind her. I dont hold her there forcing it. But either way. Who hates a kiss? And a healthy way to stop the butt slaps if she hates those is to tell me.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

RollerCoasterRide said:


> Slowly-in this very singular case you are right i needed some physical attention. But 1) this follows a huge history of NOs for sex as in both of us get some 2) id be more than happy to please her too, or just her at any time 3) *i dont think asking more than once deserves that kind of response* 4) and her reason for no sex was she didnt shower...which would not have excluded what i was asking for so im not asking a second time.


Asking more than once would upset a lot of people. Take the first no and stop bugging, it's not going to make her want you more and will probably make her want you less. She's told you to stop asking again after she's said no once so listen to her. 

"No, I haven't showered" is just "No, I'm not in the mood" If she wanted sex she would have just taken a shower. 

Do you know what does get her in the mood? Just asking if someone wants to have sex isn't a turn on. Asking if you can have a BJ is really not a turn on. 

Oh and I also can not stand the groping and butt slaps.


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## RollerCoasterRide (Sep 8, 2014)

Slowly, your opinion does give me insight into what some people may think. But honestly the entirety of your replyseems to be projecting your beliefs to the general majority. "Many people would be upset by being asked twice." Yes, and many people wouldnt too. That doesnt make doing it wrong but if my wife is in the same boat where asking a question more than once instantly throws them into an argumentative state then i can see why this fight happened. 

I still thank you for your opinion and in an effort to keep this from taking over the post ill refrain fr replying any further


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Roller,

I have sympathy for you but I can also see the points of your critics. Sometimes the best way to succeed is to pay attention to criticism so that you can solve the problem.

We don't know enough to say for sure that your wife is a horrible LD b!tch. Perhaps she is not as bad as you make her out to be. Maybe she is a hopeless case. We cannot know yet.

One, I suggest you quite arguing and discussing sex with your wife. It's not getting you laid. From your wife's perspective she may feel that as long as you have sex, then you are happy with your marriage. For some reason that is not true for her.

Read MMSLP. Become a stronger more confident person. Be super reliable but not a doormat. That could attract your wife. Raise your sex ranking. Be an active listener. Read her body language. 

Workout on weights and get a V shaped torso.

Don't use your children as the argument for or against doing something. You need a healthy marriage or a healthy divorce for them. Either road is doable.

Don't let your fear of being single determine your course of action. There are always women who want a guy with a job. But why search to replace your wife when you can still improve yourself and see if gets on board?

MC ought to help. Let her do the talking. Listen. Think before you speak.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Have you asked her why she is cold towards you? When people are cold there is usually a reason. While I have never snapped at my husband for trying to get some or being affectionate, I have been resentful. Resentful bc he's not doing his part during the day or bc I'm upset over an outburst he had towards the kids. I bet he doesn't even know how much more sex he would get if he was just a little more helpful and considerate. Being engaged and nice only before the deed makes one feel like they're only good for one thing. I'm not saying this is why she's acting this way.. Her reasons may be different.


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## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Dude, the fact that a BJ is even an option tells me you've got something worth fighting for. I don't even remember what one feels like.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Also, marriage ebbs and flows, it's not a continual smooth ride or a continual bumpy ride. Sometimes people throw in the towel too soon. Make sure you at least do counseling befire calling it quits!


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## RollerCoasterRide (Sep 8, 2014)

Thanks i will definately read the book. In terms of being attractive to her physically i admit somewhere around 2010 i looked at a pic of myself and thought "ugh". But i was only 5'11" and 195 then so not really overweight. Since then ive trained for and run numerous half marathons and im currently training for a whole. I have visible abs and am in the best shape of my life. 

In terms of being not physically attractive i did used to jump through hoops for her. Holding hands holding doors plenty of kisses and i love yous and gifts. If it was 1030 and she wanted ice cream i was out the door in 30 seconds. That has faded since i realized simple favors for me were not returned with anythibg close to the enthusiasm i showed her. For me it was an honor to do things for her. For her it is a chore to do somethig for me. Which was hit on in the "no more mr nice guy book". So i stopped alot of that. 

I just dont get though women think a guy who does their bidding is soft but if he...not treat her badly...but doesnt treat her like a queen is better? I just dont fit that roll. Bendjng over backwards for you makes me happy bc it makes you happy. But if the favor isnt returned well thats why i did away with covert contrActs. 

But i think if shes still awake im about to walk into a conversation anout it. So ill try my best to listen and see what she proposes.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Marriedwithdogs said:


> Have you asked her why she is cold towards you? When people are cold there is usually a reason. While I have never snapped at my husband for trying to get some or being affectionate, I have been resentful. Resentful bc he's not doing his part during the day or bc I'm upset over an outburst he had towards the kids. I bet he doesn't even know how much more sex he would get if he was just a little more helpful and considerate. Being engaged and nice only before the deed makes one feel like they're only good for one thing. I'm not saying this is why she's acting this way.. Her reasons may be different.


I just had to reply to you. Why on earth wouldn't you communicate to you husband that some of his actions are making you resentful?

Resentment is one of the big marriage killers! Something as simple as communicating could make such a huge difference. But be prepared to hear his resentments about you.

If you want him to improve so must you.I think most go through their marriage with the thought that they are doing everything and if their partner would only do this or that it would be better.

If you want a great marriage you got to get past all that crap . you got to be humble, you got appreciate their good qualities!!!! And you have to communicate your needs in a way they will understand. And patient because it might take lot of communication before the light bulb goes off!

Sorry for the thread jack.

The statement that got me going was I bet he doesn't even know!

My advice is too tell him!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Follow up what you started by moving away from her. Not divorce just yet but mentally moving away. Do YOU want to move into a new house? If you don't then don't. Do you want to go to a sports bar today? Then do it. Live your life in such a way that pleasing your wife does not enter into your though process just as pleasing you does not enter into her tought process. The key is don't be a beligerent jerk. Be happy. Do it happily like you are embracing your freedom. If she makes a comment about it tell her that you are tired of being a doormat.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Roller - I sypathise AND empathise with you as I am in the same boat.
You try to be a 'good' husband...you buy flowers, you help around the house, you give her a massage when she is aching etc etc but get nothing in return.

Its like paying money into a deposit account but getting no interest. Eventually you stop paying money in...next step you close the account.

I wouldn't be surprised if you have stopped 'investing' but before you close the 'account' do as many have suggested; go to MC. 
Tell your wife you want to save your marriage but need professional help...if she isn't prepared to part-take then look to closing the account.

My wife and I went to MC but as soon as sex was on the table she stopped going saying there was nothing wrong...she just wasn't interested in sex and that was it.
Also, do as Hicks above suggests...slowly start backing away. If she isn't home when you get home don't ask where she's been when she returns...if she says "I'm just popping out" say fine, don't ask where etc.
Don't ask how her day was etc....just act completely indifferent...as if she doesn't matter to your life anymore.

I stopped paying in years ago...and will close the account when our children leave home in five years time.

I hope I find another bank that will pay me atleast some interest!


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I live in the same sort of world you do. My wife doesn't want sex at all. I've even got to the point of not even asking anymore because I know what the answer will be. She has no intesrests at all and it's hard to figure out how to plan anything with her because she hates everything. I know everyone keeps saying it's depression but that's only a BS excuse. I would stop planning moving to a nicer home and start planning your exit strategy. It's doesn't look like you are headed anywhere positive in your marriage. It will be tough because you suspect she mistreats your kids. That's why I didn't leave way earlier.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

On the current path, You are going to live the next 40 years only knowing Mr Hand.

Food for thought.

My wife was very similar until i was eight hours away from filing. She knew i was serious. Funny part is now that i get laid im more willing to work on my own 9999999999 flaws.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Weightlifter--are you getting laid now because she wants it or is she just allowing you to deadhorse her to keep you from filing? It if were option 2, I'd still be thinking about filing.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

chillymorn said:


> I just had to reply to you. Why on earth wouldn't you communicate to you husband that some of his actions are making you resentful?
> 
> Resentment is one of the big marriage killers! Something as simple as communicating could make such a huge difference. But be prepared to hear his resentments about you.
> 
> ...


I have. He changes for like a week or two and goes back to his old ways. I pretend like nothing is wrong and try to stay positive until things start to build up again (every 4-6 mo) and here comes the resentment again. It's like a cycle...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Roller-- bottom line is you are in a sh*tty situation with no really good options.

You and your wife are in a very negative cycle of rejection/resentment. I have been in a similar cycle for 5 yrs with my wife, so I know what it is like.

The hard truth is the most straightforward path to your personal happiness would be divorce. 

It is very difficult to reverse this cycle once it has been established. You need to be able to take a very long view and have extreme discipline. 

The path involves taking total ownership for your personal happiness and refusing to allow your wife's rejection of you to destroy you. You must start with a baseline assumption that she will give you nothing. This dulls the impact of rejection.

Next, you must work to better yourself. Marathon is good. 

Use the example of marathon training to train yourself mentally as well. Try to gain more and more control of your thoughts around your relationship. Try to frame everything you say and do with your wife as a conscious act that you yourself have specifically chosen, rather than a reaction to what she says or does. 

Learn to slow down and really think about why you do things. Make sure you are always (and only) doing things because they are consistent with your own goals and values. If you find yourself doing things to get a reaction from her, stop.

The goal is to be more independent, more complete and better without her. Her importance to you should gradually diminish. 

She will then either seek you out on terms that you can live with or she won't. 

There is a good chance that she won't, but you will still be better off.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Weightlifter--are you getting laid now because she wants it or is she just allowing you to deadhorse her to keep you from filing? It if were option 2, I'd still be thinking about filing.


Fozzy

Nope she even initiates sex sometimes.

Im much more aggressive and less wishy washy than I used to be. Recognizing and crushing her sh!t tests will make her very horny for two weeks. When she goes off on me, the first thought is, "Did I actually do something to piss her off". Sometimes she has a point and I apologize. Other times I call her on it when the answer is no and tell her to cut it the f*** out. I get a "Youre right" and an apology. I then smile and hug her after the apology.

Plus I figured out a way to give her toe curlers a couple times a month. Doesnt always work but leaving her gasping has a great affect on her libido.

I paw at her constantly. I get a growl sometimes but I see her secret smile. One thing I missed early on in our marriage is she is somewhat sexually submissive. (Not not in the 50 shades sense) Actually somewhat submissive overall. She expects me to initiate most of the time and fairly aggressively. In other areas she hates making many types of decisions and resents having to make them. Not in a cruel sense but like in money. Numbers are just alien to her and she has zero concept of net present value or the time value of money or cash flow. I make a decision, INFORM HER OF IT *AND WHY in nontechnical English*, and she almost never raises a fuss. I get a nod and a "That makes sense" (The bolded part is one thing I am working on. Talking to her and telling her why) Thats another of my problems I work on. My math IQ is in the 170 range. Numbers are alien to her past basic algebra. I can not speak to her as I do other engineers.

Sometimes she initiates when she gets all horned up in the middle of the night.

Not perfect. She still has a temper, but better. I still have my own issues. I really only trigger (from her EA) when she is on the computer which is a lot less than it used to be.

Sorry for the threadjack. End


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