# Friends of the Opposite Sex



## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Hi all,

Super new to the forum. 

I have a sort of 'poll' I guess you could say. 

Do you think it's appropriate for your spouse or SO to comfort a friend of the same sex all the time? For them to be that friends 'go-to' for a problem or for your SO to be the person who knows exactly what to say to calm them and make everything ok? Say, 3 times a week or more. 

That's the type of scenario I'm talking about. Curious to hear your thoughts....


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## Pollon (Nov 13, 2012)

Little confused. Title says "opposite" sex, the body says "same" sex. Who is comforting who? Your SO is comforting a friend of the same or opposite sex regarding this friend's relationship?

Please clarify.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Assuming you mean opposite sex, I have a book for you to read. It will answer all your questions.

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh sorry sorry!! I meant opposite sex. 

Not sure what I was thinking!


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

My SO has a friend of the opposite sex who he regularly comforts on all matters, not just relationship problems. She says "he knows exactly what I need to hear, even when I freak out for no reason" type thing

Which leads me to believe they're a lot closer than he told me. He made it seem she was older & engaged. She's not. That they speak infrequently. The quote above indicates otherwise in my opinion.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I feel strongly that when one is dating/ an item/ engaged....before they ever walk down the aisle....that all opposite sex friends are in for a change in the relationship -if it was free reign before...they now must face that their friend is "taken" and respect their new partner, seeing them as "one"... if they get together, do it as a couple in the future. 

If such friends can not handle this, treating the other half with such respect... they need to go. Period. But this takes the person with that said friend to set up those boundaries forsaking all others for the relationship, so if a BF / GF can not do this.... it's a "red flag"... it's boundary crossing really. 

If there is physical attraction between 2 said "friends" and they get off alone... something could easily spring here , most especially if a little trouble is brewing at home. 

All our emotional devotion, our deepest secrets, our highest highs, our lowest lows should be brought to our lover ~ their being our closest & dearest friend.


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## Pollon (Nov 13, 2012)

You are right to be wary of this relationship. For your long-term future (you didn't say how long you've been dating), the dynamics of this relationship eventually has to change. 

If she is just a friend (there was never any romantic relationship) and he considers you to be a potential serious relationship, out of respect for your feelings and the relationship, he should introduce the two of you like he would introduce any other friend of his. He should also be letting you know when he is in contact with her. In other words, if the two of you are going to be "one", he needs to be bringing you into the circle. If she is a true friend of his and has his best interest at heart, she will understand and accept this. If she is resistant, she is using her neediness to access him. And he is getting some thrill by being her knight in shining armor. 

Some guys get a real ego trip playing this role, but keeping it separate and secret is a problem. Depending on where you are in your relationship with him, you can't expect this to happen immediately, but you should be feeling like he is trying to move her toward a friendship with her. 

If, on the other hand, the two of them have had a past romantic relationship or there is big resistance to bringing you in, it should be brought to a close.

Good luck


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> My SO has a friend of the opposite sex who he regularly comforts on all matters, not just relationship problems. She says "he knows exactly what I need to hear, even when I freak out for no reason" type thing
> 
> Which leads me to believe they're a lot closer than he told me. He made it seem she was older & engaged. She's not. That they speak infrequently. The quote above indicates otherwise in my opinion.


Get the book. Seriously. What you describe is poison to your relationship.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

She is is ex gf sister.
He informed me that she was there for him thru that breakup. 
He told me they are friends, but never mentioned they text regularly. 
He also told me she was older, she is not. She is 19. He's 23, I am 33. I been round the block. I understand there's female friends. But to a certain extent. For him to know her well enough to know exactly what she needs to hear makes me uncomfortable at best. Especially since he downplayed the relationship I. The first place.

Especially since I've asked him if he has any female friends he speaks to regularly and the answer is no. 

I feel if he wanted us to meet, it would have happened by now. We've been together a year and recently moved in together.

I have male friends, but not to the extent I talk to them daily. On Facebook a happy bday or how's the family? Type things.

Love all the responses. Thank you so much!!


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## Pollon (Nov 13, 2012)

Not to pick on you, but what is a woman of your experience doing living with this boy? 

As you probably recall, your twenties was a time of discovering yourself and who you want to be and be with. He could wake up in six years a totally different person who wants a completely different partner. That would leave you alone pushing 40.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I understand. He's not your average 23 year old. Believe me, I have mulled over this more than I can count. 
It's a long story. 
We've discussed out relationship inward and outward countless times. Believe it or not, we're more than compatible. 
I have my concerns about our age difference, but this sort of thing isn't unheard of, it can work. 
It's just that different challenges are going to present themselves than if I were with a man of my age or older. Been both of those places, and this one has worked out far better than ever. 
He's an incredible man&provider, and is not your typical 23 year old.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

So are you going to get the book Hope suggested or are you going to wait for the "I didn't mean it to happen" speach from your man?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> Oh sorry sorry!! I meant opposite sex.
> 
> Not sure what I was thinking!


I actually think if it is the same sex that what you refer to is obsessive.

Now if you are talking about opposite sex ... no way.

In fact I learned the hard way that close opposite sex friends are way out of bounds period.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

My son is 22 and he is in an established relationship of 2 years and yes he does have female friends from his past, naturally there was mutually supportive behavior during high school years that did not involve dating. This is just the way it is.

I'm seeing someone and I already decided I don't want to have any control over his choices of who he has a relationship with and what it entails. So long as it's not used as a way to hurt me, which some people such as my ex, did use his relationships with OW to hurt, manipulate, deceive me, for purposes of his psychological addiction to doing this (yes, a misogynist.) 

If the intention isn't to hurt me, it's unlikely I'm going to be hurt. I have male friends, I go to dinner with them, I dance with them, I discuss things with them. Yes, they would probably like to date me but they understand that it wouldn't work out. I have abnormal needs in terms of being met intellectually, I have tried to partner-down and it didn't work, I tried to partner across into a different field and it didn't work. I tried to partner up when I was younger in terms of age/world experience and that didn't work either (H turned out to be an idiot business wise and alcoholic tendencies as well, whereupon he would tell the same joke to the same people at different dinner parties, that sort of thing...just wrong...and wrong...) Plus he wasn't confident, which made him prey to outside female influences, which in our line of business was a liability. He couldn't tell when he was being played. Thank God he married a Finn who was able to deal with him, handle his drinking, and make sure he paid his child support (she still sends $ every month to our son, who is in college, which isn't necessary, but it sure does help him out...) 

Hmmm, maybe I could find myself a middle-aged female Finn and just let myself lose all control of myself...now there's a theory. lol

Honestly, I think people should stay out of other people's relationships. If he is close to you, he will realize you are bothered by what he's doing, and adjust, or attempt to adjust your thinking on the matter, or at least bring his concerns about how what he is doing affects you, to the table, first. If he doesn't do that, then obviously he's not in tune with you and if it's that much of a bother, find someone who will forsake all others in friendships as well as love matches, in favor of you.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Not to beat a dead horse since I know a previous poster also pointed it out, but a 19 year old woman and a 23 year old man are much closer in age and have more in common with each other than they do with a 33 year old woman.

Out of curiousity, what makes him so incredible as a man and provider? No snark, I'm really curious (if you want to answer). 

Sounds like they have a strong connection and he has a knight in shining armor complex where he enjoys being her sounding board, giving advice, being her confidant. It probably flatters his ego to be thought of that way by a young woman.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> Not to beat a dead horse since I know a previous poster also pointed it out, but a 19 year old woman and a 23 year old man are much closer in age and have more in common with each other than they do with a 33 year old woman.
> 
> Out of curiousity, what makes him so incredible as a man and provider? No snark, I'm really curious (if you want to answer).
> 
> Sounds like they have a strong connection and he has a knight in shining armor complex where he enjoys being her sounding board, giving advice, being her confidant. It probably flatters his ego to be thought of that way by a young woman.


I can answer that from my perspective having married a man 6 years younger, and my sister married a man who is 9 years younger than she. Basically, the younger men were, and still are, more mature than the men our age. My sister was married before, to a man her age. They divorced after having two kids. Her new husband stepped up and treated the kids as his own, and has treated my sister as she deserves to be treated. He holds down a decent job, which is more than can be said for her ex-husband. My husband and I have been married 12 1/2 years and my sister and brother-in-law have been married 4 1/2 years. So, yes, greater age gaps like that can work, and work well.


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## Justadude (Aug 6, 2012)

As a man, from my own experience and what I’ve observed….trust no other man completely. Men will wait for years (as friends) to get the opportunity at the right time. This guy may not be interested in her now, but things can change. I know of a guy who waited for a woman for 10 years, she was married to another but he loved her, and never acted on it other than a very close friendship. When she went through some major marriage issues, and he saw the opening to make his move, and he did…and was rejected! He wasted 10 years! Now to be fair he dated now and then during those 10 years, but he had her on the back burner. So to have these relationships, I view them as possible ticking time bombs. Do you know of any decently attractive men that are friends with unattractive women? I don’t.

If he is a good guy, and has no intensions or desires for your woman he will be totally understanding with any rules or limits you put on their friendship. I’d say no dinners, or lunches alone with another man…just as a rule. You should do the same…never have social meeting with another member of the opposite sex alone. 

Lots of infidelity starts out with relationship conversations, and the male nature is to sleep with as many women as possible…it is only through refinement of character that men don’t act on it. So be very careful with this type of thing…she may be this guy’s plan B, C or D.


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## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

My son is 23 and I am 42, I don't date women my son should be dating and he doesn't date women I should be dating, stick with someone your own age. Just my opinion


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## WillPrez (Dec 8, 2012)

I think no problem friendship with opposite sex friend..I am comfortable with my female friend.


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## galian84 (May 7, 2012)

I'd get really annoyed if my SO was doing that...comforting some other woman. Doesn't she have her own SO/friends to do that with? 

On that note, I think casual / work OSF are okay, just not CLOSE friends of the opposite sex. I just feel like close OSF are a can of worms that I don't want to open, and my boyfriend believes the same.


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## Justadude (Aug 6, 2012)

WillPrez said:


> I think no problem friendship with opposite sex friend..I am comfortable with my female friend.


She's good looking? Do you have any ugly girls that are friends?


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I'm seeing someone and I already decided I don't want to have any control over his choices of who he has a relationship with and what it entails. So long as it's not used as a way to hurt me, which some people such as my ex, did use his relationships with OW to hurt, manipulate, deceive me, for purposes of his psychological addiction to doing this (yes, a misogynist.)
> 
> If the intention isn't to hurt me, it's unlikely I'm going to be hurt. I have male friends, I go to dinner with them, I dance with them, I discuss things with them. Yes, they would probably like to date me but they understand that it wouldn't work out. .


Although I am sure this advice was offered in the spirit of helpfullness, I believe it is colassally bad! Just read the countless infideilty threads of people who trusted their partners and didn't act.

Good luck


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Sorry for taking forever to respond. 

He is in no way a 'typical' 23 year old. Sounds cliche, but is is definitely an old soul. He and I have been living together since August last year. I have two kids, he is taking on the role of father figure to them, and is strikingly good at it. He listens to me attentively, brings me flowers unexpectedly, we go on dates, we play little 'games' where we text throughout the day, specific questions like, 'where would you live if you could without consequence'? and do countless marriage questionnaires via text and in person, we talk a LOT, our dreams, short and long term goals, etc. He has been a working man since he was 14, even worked 3 jobs once. He has a strong work ethic, provides for me and the kids (we refer to as OUR kids, because he prefers it) for instance, my daughter would rather him accompant her to the daddy/daughter banquet instead of her biological father, etc. I could go on and on as to why he is such a wonderful man and provider, father, lover, friend, etc. 

I understand it is rather hard for many reading this to believe he is so responsible and mature at his age. He has made the choice to be a family man and live this life. We have hashed it out many times. My concern about his age, and how others (including myself) feel I am robbing him of something. As the days and arguments pass about that subject, I am only more convinced of his dedication to our family. I know it is hard to believe for a lot of people. He has been this way for a very long time, dating older women. He has older male friends. He always says he feels like he should have been born earlier. 

I have a close relationship with his entire extended family. His parents agree that this is what he wants, they are on board. They view and treat my children as their grand and great grand children. 

Alas, he does have a few contacts/close friend from high school. It's not surprising given how charismatic he is. 

Also, I have begun reading "Not Just Friends" I am halfway through. I am taking in all of your responses and considering each one. The book has opened my eyes, a couple of points that stuck out: 

1. The friendship was hidden from me
2. She is not a 'friend of the marriage' (in this case of the relationship)
3. I don't think he would be comfortable on me 'listening in" to their conversations 

This is not the first time I found out about him talking to another female his age. 

I am leaning toward the poster who mentions that he likes being the knight in shining armor, and it boosts his ego. But as the books states, her confiding in him regarding personal relationship issues crosses a boundary. I already felt that in my gut. 

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for all of your responses. 

I just need to figure out how to get over this, and make sure he understands why it is inappropriate. I don't want to drudge up the past, but I cannot go n not trusting him. I don't know how many other inappropriate relationships he could be having. He is still secretive with his phone. It's always on silent.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Age can matter or not. Depends on the people involved. 

He's a liar though. Multiple lies about another woman who he is this close to - big red flags. Keep him as a sex toy, you cougar.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Those that think spouses can't have opposite sex friends are being a little too extreme, possessive, and frankly, not realistic. (I am speaking in general terms, not specifically to the OP's situation). I have a question I have asked before, but I will ask again. 

If you feel they can't have OS friends, then what if your spouse is bisexual? Does that mean that s/he can't have any close friends whatsoever?


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

When I was single, I had a guy friend that was also single and we spent a lot of time together. (I liked him and I'm sure he liked me, but it never went anywhere for whatever reason).

When he started dating another girl, our friendship changed drastically. I met her, and she was uncomfortable with our friendship in the beginning. Actually, she and I have become the best of friends now, and she has replaced him as my "friend". Of course, five years later we all still hang out regularly and even my husband will join us on ocassion. But it is no longer just me and my guy friend. It's respecting his relationship and now, respecting my marriage.

If my guy friend and I were to carry on the way we were when we were single, there would be a loooootttt of issues with our respective significant others. Things change when you commit to someone - you put your spouse/SO first and you do not do anything that violates the relationship in any way.

OP, a few more details might be needed, but I'm confident this relationship is inappropriate. Even the fact that you are bothered by it should be reason enough for your husband to tone it down a LOT.

Just my opinion. Opposite-sex friendships only invite trouble when one or both are involved with someone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Those that think spouses can't have opposite sex friends are being a little too extreme, possessive, and frankly, not realistic. (I am speaking in general terms, not specifically to the OP's situation). I have a question I have asked before, but I will ask again.
> 
> If you feel they can't have OS friends, then what if your spouse is bisexual? Does that mean that s/he can't have any close friends whatsoever?


This is a tough question! I think that once two are married, they become one. Isn't it a little strange for one person in a marriage to be soooo super close to another human being of *any sex* and the other partner not be aware of the friendship at all? Or at least be an acquaintance of the relationship/marriage? A friend of the marriage? I would think that is strange, just IMO. I mean, aside from people that you know at work and speak to on a regular basis on a professional/friendly relationship. But if that friendship would evolve outside of work, again, I would think the partner would be aware of it. 
Any secret friendship/relationship/etc/ is kind of strange IMO. 

Especially since reading or listening to the countless audiobooks I have seen recommended on this forum.  
(many thank to all those who have suggested them BTW) 

SO and I have been listening to the together. We are finally getting to be on the same page. Coming to this forum has helped me tremendously in my relationship. I cannot thank all of you enough.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

There is a LOT more going on than you know. Start investigating.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I have started investigating, keeping my ears & eyes open, but it is quite difficult to say the least. He has erased the messages. 

I do know how to retrieve back up files via the computer on itunes, but he has not plugged it into his computer in forever. 

So, I have no clue what their convos are like, other than what he has told me. 

He admits she vents and vents about her problems. School, work, love prospects, etc. 

Ever since I totally blew up on him, he tells me every time he has contact with her. On FB, she posted a comment to one of his posts. So, I said to her, "I feel like I already know you. You should come over with a boyfriend/friend one night and play some cards"

She did not respond to me, but sent him a text, which he showed me. She said she'd love to come hang out with us. I'm not sure why she won't address me directly online. 

My gut is NEVER WRONG. It has never failed me. I suspect she has a HUGE crush on him. It's understandable, he's awesome. 

Ever since we've been listening to NJF, he has been more sensitive. I believe the contact has been minimized. He offers to show me texts. I figure, what's the use in that? I don't know what parts of the convo have been deleted or not. So beats me. He told me he would cut her off if it came to speaking to her vs. losing me. 

I feel like I want to meet her first. I wanna get her 'vibe'. But thus far, my reaching out to her to become a friend to us both has failed on her end. I've been way way way more than cool about it. 

Side note: I found out about this via a post on FB she tagged him in, I mentioned her comment earlier, about how "he knows just what to say" to her. He was not the only involved male to be tagged in that post. She's also the sister of his ex-girlfriend, whom he has no contact with and cannot stand. 

How's this for a crazy thought? Please tell me / advise/ comment if this would be over-stepping. 

I've thought of waking up one morning and asking for his phone and keeping it all day. No advance notice. Just to see what kind of texts he gets. Maybe even keep it a couple days? That's the only viable option I see to find out what's really going on. However, I feel as if I need to go to such lengths, what's the point really? 

I want to trust him. I want to trust he's being honest about this friendship. I don't want to be a PI or a snoop.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Only if I agree first.

And I don't.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

I predict he slept with this girl while he was going through the breakup with her sister.

You're being bamboozled.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thoreau said:


> I predict he slept with this girl while he was going through the breakup with her sister.
> 
> You're being bamboozled.


While I have considered this, I haven't outright asked him. Wow, I'm an idiot. 

I might want to re-mention (I know, not a word) that I am 33, he is 23. 

While a lot of people may think a certain way about a 23 year old male, I am telling you - he is the exception. He's had very limited sexual experience before me. We've done a lot of work in this area  but I digress . . . I don't think he slept with her. 

But I do think they have been inappropriate in other ways, now that you mention it. I'll be asking.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Only if I agree first.
> 
> And I don't.


I'm really sorry but I don't understand what you're referring to. . . . 

I truly apologize. I'm new to this, forgive me.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> While I have considered this, I haven't outright asked him. Wow, I'm an idiot.
> 
> I might want to re-mention (I know, not a word) that I am 33, he is 23.
> 
> ...



He has a history of telling lies. Not little fibs, but big lies. If you ask, do not expect the truth.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I just called & asked him. He of course said no. I asked had they ever been intimate in any other way at all, he said no. I asked had they ever even discussed being intimate, flirted, etc. he said no. 

But you are right, Thoreau, he is a liar. He's lied about big things. I will always question any answer he gives me. So, how do I move forward? Cut him loose? Or accept he is a liar and that will never change?

I spoke to his mom about this issue shortly after I became aware of it. He said that she used to cause him problems (with his parents) when he was in high school because she'd call him late at night, hysterical from some sort of break-up and he would calm her down. His mom said she's nutty.


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

I would insist on absolutely no contact.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I'll be talking to him about it when I bring him lunch in an hour. He told me once before that he would cut off contact if it meant losing me. 
I'll let you know what happens.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Our convo went surprisingly well. It's opened up lots of discussion on both ends, along with something that bothered him about me that I was unaware of. 

It was funny because he brought it up even before I did. He said he will end all contact with his friend. He still insists the friendship was only that. That's fine tho, the friendship was still kept from me which is not ok, and sends red flags to me no matter what he said took place. 

Before this I was hoping shed reach out and talk to me when I tried initiating it through a Facebook comment thread. She didnt - another red flag. 

So I feel bad, but I don't. 

I do believe we're finally on the same page. Listening to NJF has opened our eyes and is bringing us closer.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> My SO has a friend of the opposite sex who he regularly comforts on all matters, not just relationship problems. She says "he knows exactly what I need to hear, even when I freak out for no reason" type thing
> 
> Which leads me to believe they're a lot closer than he told me. *He made it seem she was older & engaged. She's not*. *That they speak infrequently.* The quote above indicates otherwise in my opinion.


Not ok. (3 of his lies are bolded).



notmarriedyet said:


> He told me they are friends, but *never mentioned they text regularly. **He also told me she was older, she is not.* She is 19. He's 23, I am 33. I been round the block. I understand there's female friends. But to a certain extent. For him to know her well enough to know exactly what she needs to hear makes me uncomfortable at best. Especially since *he downplayed the relationship *
> 
> Especially since *I've asked him if he has any female friends he speaks to regularly and the answer is no. *


More lies



notmarriedyet said:


> Also, I have begun reading "Not Just Friends" I am halfway through. The book has opened my eyes, a couple of points that stuck out:
> 
> *1. The friendship was hidden from me
> 2. She is not a 'friend of the marriage' (in this case of the relationship)
> ...



Geez, louise. What more do you need, woman?



notmarriedyet said:


> I have started investigating, keeping my ears & eyes open, but it is quite difficult to say the least. *He has erased the messages. *


Oh boy.

Your gut is probably spot on here. If he had nothin to hide from you, he would hae introduced you to her long ago, told you about her long ago, and basically not do everything that is bolded above.

Asking to keep his phone all day isn't the answer. If he wants to cheat (or has), he will find a way to do it. Blowing up on him is going to have adverse effects. 

I hate to chime in on the age thing but I am going to: As a 33 year old woman and a 23 year old man, you guys are in totally different life stages. Completely.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> I spoke to his mom about this issue shortly after I became aware of it. He said that she used to cause him problems (with his parents) when he was in high school because she'd call him late at night, hysterical from some sort of break-up and he would calm her down. His mom said she's nutty.


If you have to talk to his mom and she's telling you about this girl being a problem in high school...he's way too young for you. Seriously. I know you keep saying he's not like other 23 year olds, but you shouldn't need to go to his MOTHER to find out about his friends/whatever she is.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Yikes. 

It didnt go to his mother with the intent of getting info out of her. It actually came up when we were discussing his high school girlfriend when we were out to lunch one day. The friend in question is the ex-gf's sister. She mentioned it to me, I didn't bring it up or go to her for information. 

I wish I hadn't mentioned our age difference. When I was his age, I had 2 children, a husband, and a full time job. I was mature and capable. I still have 2 of the three. There are many 23 year olds with families who are mature and content. My mother was and is one, and her mother, and so on and do forth. . 

I think I bring it up because everyone else and society in general, also statistics - has a problem with our age difference. Except for us and our families, that is.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> "I feel like I already know you. You should come over with a boyfriend/friend one night and play some cards"
> 
> She did not respond to me, but sent him a text, which he showed me. She said she'd love to come hang out with us. I'm not sure why she won't address me directly online.


You mean besides the fact she has no respect for you and is actively trying to undermine your relationship. 



> My gut is NEVER WRONG. It has never failed me. I suspect she has a HUGE crush on him.


Which is one major reason why this is so inappropriate. You know that women like this do their best to sabotage relationships even when the man isn't doing her. Your mate should be protecting your relationship from such toxic people, before it gets to this. 



> He told me he would cut her off if it came to speaking to her vs. losing me.


I see he has decided to end it. So that's good but admitting to the lies and how inappropriate they were is still necessary. And you need to keep your eyes open. 

About the business of him being 23: in the future, just don't dwell on it. I married my wife as a 19 year old when I was 49. She was an adult, and had that right, period. That is quite literally what society has to say about it: nobody's business but ours.

There are people that will try to put you down for it, but that says something about them, not about you.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you for the kind words, wiserforit. 

I've dated and been in relationships with men ten years older than me who don't have their ish together as much as my current SO does. 

Now that he's agreed to end contact, I need to work on what the conversations were really like. I do feel it's necessary for me to hear in order to move forward.


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## thelovetrip (Mar 19, 2013)

How many relationships have you had before this, and how have they ended? It seems to me that you have some trust issues from the very beginning. Either that or you are a gluten for punishment when it comes to choosing the men in your life. You seem to have all the answers in front of you but still seem confused. If trust is already an issue in this relationship I say run...run as fast as you can to a professional who can help you work through your trust issues BEFORE you think of getting married!


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Sorry, he's told too many lies about her (older, taken, etc.), and hidden too many other facts for this to be innocent.

Text messages DO NOT get deleted unless he would be horrified of you seeing them. Who thinks to delete texts as soon as they get them? Only a guilty conscience.

Speaking as a guy, I call BS on his story.

Looking back at my youth, I would say one of the things I lacked at 23, even as mature as I was, was the understanding of boundaries. It is incredibly flattering, even at my age now, to have a woman want to talk to me and need me for things. I also would have believed I COULD keep things separate if I tried hard enough. I now have the wisdom of experience at 41 to see approaching danger, that I simply did not have at 21. That only comes with age.

I fear you will be doing more of what his parents had to do (and what a mature man will hopefully be able to do already) - keep a young pretty girl who feeds his ego, away from him for his own good. I think you are going to find out that you will be parenting your lover. 

He may break off contact now that you've asked him, but DO NOT LET YOUR GUARD DOWN. I am sure his girl-friend will be back in no time, and I'm sure he won't be able to say no, and instead will do more to cover it up.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Kronk said:


> My son is 23 and I am 42, I don't date women my son should be dating and he doesn't date women I should be dating, stick with someone your own age. Just my opinion


Yeah, but an experienced and established older woman CAN help your son quite a bit versus the females at his own age. It's something to think about.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> I can answer that from my perspective having married a man 6 years younger, and my sister married a man who is 9 years younger than she. Basically, the younger men were, and still are, more mature than the men our age. My sister was married before, to a man her age. They divorced after having two kids. Her new husband stepped up and treated the kids as his own, and has treated my sister as she deserves to be treated. He holds down a decent job, which is more than can be said for her ex-husband. My husband and I have been married 12 1/2 years and my sister and brother-in-law have been married 4 1/2 years. So, yes, greater age gaps like that can work, and work well.


Thing about it is our mythical 23 year old, could be very stable, secure a good man and make her happy for a long time to come. And around 30 years old, look at his watch and figure he's been responsible, predictible, etc what about all the wild stuff me "missed out on", and make that drastic departure... It's something that happens.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Thing about it is our mythical 23 year old, could be very stable, secure a good man and make her happy for a long time to come. And around 30 years old, look at his watch and figure he's been responsible, predictible, etc what about all the wild stuff me "missed out on", and make that drastic departure... It's something that happens.


Right. It's not guaranteed to happen, but it is a risk we take when we do an age gap relationship that we have to at least accept this is the reality of these situations. I'm in an age gap relationship myself, and have been before, I've also been the younger by a bit, but this time I'm not. I pray that she doesn't follow some of the silliness that the group is promoting like it's no big deal these days.

Thing about it, is someone your own age can also make that drastic departure. I just believe ( I haven't checked stats ) it's a bit more likely with an age gap relationship.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

thelovetrip said:


> How many relationships have you had before this, and how have they ended? It seems to me that you have some trust issues from the very beginning. Either that or you are a gluten for punishment when it comes to choosing the men in your life. You seem to have all the answers in front of you but still seem confused. If trust is already an issue in this relationship I say run...run as fast as you can to a professional who can help you work through your trust issues BEFORE you think of getting married!


I do go to counseling, for many issues. I had a very rough childhood, periods of homelessness, neglect, etc. 

I've had several 'relationships' only two were serious and long term. No trust issues in the first serious relationship, but there were some in my marriage - not due to infidelity. 
It ended for other reasons.
I don't believe (nor ever had a gut feeling or inclination to believe) that I have ever been cheated on in either of those relationships. 

With my current SO, I trusted him 110% before this. I was floored to say the least. I would have never dreamed of this happening. He tells me everything. Things I will take to my grave for him, no matter what. Things he intended to take to his, I am sure. 

He has been a perfect dream for me. (Besides this issue, of course)
We are so compatible it's creepy. My kids love him. His family loves my kids. So on and so forth.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> Sorry, he's told too many lies about her (older, taken, etc.), and hidden too many other facts for this to be innocent.
> 
> Text messages DO NOT get deleted unless he would be horrified of you seeing them. Who thinks to delete texts as soon as they get them? Only a guilty conscience.
> 
> ...


He has admitted she has a crush on him. At least he thinks so. (No question there in my mind) 

I hacked into his FB account. He looks at her profile more (search history) than he looks at mine. 

I told him I want the text messages recovered. It can be done. I know how, I have researched it. I've recovered texts from my own phone. 

I told him I want him to admit to me what the messages say before I read them. I'll read them regardless. But it is of the utmost importance for him to admit it to me from his mouth, that is what I want. I want full disclosure. 

We work 12 hour days. He works tomorrow. 
We have a babysitter for Sunday, all day. We are going for a drive, maybe for a walk downtown. He will give me full disclosure, or I will walk. 

I don't think the crush is just on her end. I should say, my gut KNOWS it's not just on her end. 

I believe this is a full-blown emotional affair. 

He will tell me, or I WILL LEAVE. Heck, I'll leave Sunday. I have the means, and I'll do it.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Should this thread be moved to Coping With Infidelity? 

Can I do that if I should? How?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks for moving my thread!

I am dreading this conversation tomorrow. 

It's like someone already mentioned, I have all the answers in front of me, yet I'm still confused. 

I'm dreading hearing what the texts were, I'm dreading actually reading them. 

However, I'm looking forward to getting it over with and moving on if that's possible.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> Thanks for moving my thread!
> 
> I am dreading this conversation tomorrow.
> 
> ...


You mentioned guarding the phone and always being on silent. That is the biggest red flag there is when it comes to infidelity. It's a guarantee that those texts contain things that he does not want you to see.

You mentioned that he looks at her facebook profile more than yours. Another huge red flag.

About your conversation with him: It is impossible for a cheater to admit the truth. It just doesn't happen. As you have already experienced, each time you ask, you get the minimized version to assuage your concerns. Every time you bring it up, you get some new little nugget. That's called trickle truth. He gives you as much as he feels you can handle, just enough so that he feels that it will make sense to you and maybe you will forget about it.

My advice is to go straight to recovering the texts, secure the phone and get them, forget the talk. You are just going to give him a chance to destroy the evidence and he will not admit to the truth.


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## brightlight (Feb 18, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> She is is ex gf sister.
> He informed me that she was there for him thru that breakup.
> He told me they are friends, but never mentioned they text regularly.
> *He also told me she was older, she is not. She is 19. He's 23, I am 33.* I been round the block. I understand there's female friends. But to a certain extent. For him to know her well enough to know exactly what she needs to hear makes me uncomfortable at best. Especially since he downplayed the relationship I. The first place.
> ...


That's all wrong. 

He lied for one thing and the age gap is massive. Don't think it isn't. He is obviously operating with a different set of behavior parameters to you. Like a child.

And she is only 19. Her head is probably full of Twilight etc.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

A MAN is old enough to fight and die for his country...he's old enough to date a 33 year old


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

BobSimmons said:


> A MAN is old enough to fight and die for his country...he's old enough to date a 33 year old


Also old enough to lie and cheat from the sounds of it


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Thing about it is our mythical 23 year old, could be very stable, secure a good man and make her happy for a long time to come. And around 30 years old, look at his watch and figure he's been responsible, predictible, etc what about all the wild stuff me "missed out on", and make that drastic departure... It's something that happens.





DaddyLongShanks said:


> Right. It's not guaranteed to happen, but it is a risk we take when we do an age gap relationship that we have to at least accept this is the reality of these situations. I'm in an age gap relationship myself, and have been before, I've also been the younger by a bit, but this time I'm not. I pray that she doesn't follow some of the silliness that the group is promoting like it's no big deal these days.
> 
> Thing about it, is someone your own age can also make that drastic departure. I just believe ( I haven't checked stats ) it's a bit more likely with an age gap relationship.


You quoted yourself on post 49 and then gave a slightly opposing view. Do you have at least 2 profiles here and you forgot to change on this occasion?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

To answer your question...

Hell no! You don't have friends of the opposite sex. It just doesn't happen. If it does there is sexual attraction from at least one party.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

OP, to be honest you seem to be very hung up on the age difference and explaining how it's such a good thing.... which, IMO, is a non-issue given your situation. The real issue is your guy is a liar and he's told you some big lies about his friend. To say nothing of the red flags she's kicking out, like with not responding directly to your FB post. If he's hung up on being a KISA and lying about his friendships with other women, and you choose to stay with him, you've got a long road ahead of you.

My WS has KISA issues and I'm very capable/indepedent, so it isn't me he acts out his KISA issues with. He tries to KISA both men and women and even falls right into his sister's manipulative crap, so not all of it is sexual (other men/sister). However, it can eat up a significant amount of time/emotional resources and in some cases lead to affairs. It led my WS to have an EA/almost PA with his younger, drama queen coworker. Not so much now but then, he was easily sucked in by 'woe is me' drama stemming from other people. My WS is in his early 50's so the KISA crap obviously can hang around for ages past one's 20's.

KISA, saviour complex isn't as nice as it appears either. It's more than merely going out of one's way to help people. For starters, a KISA usually has an ulterior motive (ego boost, looking good to others, sometimes sexual motives depending on the person). The KISA is operating from the assumption the person they are trying to save can't help themselves and ultimately doesn't care if they can, in fact, help themselves....hence the ulterior motive. The worst of it is, their female friends are usually nutters....often they are drama queens who need to be saved from whatever self-created problems they have and usually have ulterior motives themselves. Both people involved in this usually have huge issues with boundaries.

Google it, it's not an innocent problem. 

As for the lying, why would you want this guy as a role model around your children? A liar is a liar no matter how mature and capable you paint this guy. Mature men don't lie about their friendships with other people and spend excessive time checking out FB profiles.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> OP, to be honest you seem to be very hung up on the age difference and explaining how it's such a good thing.... which, IMO, is a non-issue givejn your situation. The real issue is your guy is a liar and he's told you some big lies about his friend. To say nothing of the red flags she's kicking out, like with not responding directly to your FB post. If he's hung up on being a KISA and lying about his friendships with other women, and you choose to stay with him, you've got a long road ahead of you.
> 
> My WS has KISA issues and I'm very capable/indepedent, so it isn't me he acts out his KISA issues with. He tries to KISA both men and women and even falls right into his sister's manipulative crap, so not all of it is sexual (other men/sister). However, it can eat up a significant amount of time/emotional resources and in some cases lead to affairs. It led my WS to have an EA/almost PA with his younger, drama queen coworker. Not so much now but then, he was easily sucked in by 'woe is me' drama stemming from other people. My WS is in his early 50's so the KISA crap obviously can hang around for ages past one's 20's.
> 
> ...


What is KISA?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Knight In Shining Armor.

Me? I am a Dark Knight. LOL.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Knight In Shining Armor.
> 
> Me? I am a Dark Knight. LOL.


Is a KISA better or worse than a white Knight? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> OP, to be honest you seem to be very hung up on the age difference and explaining how it's such a good thing.... which, IMO, is a non-issue given your situation. The real issue is your guy is a liar and he's told you some big lies about his friend. To say nothing of the red flags she's kicking out, like with not responding directly to your FB post. If he's hung up on being a KISA and lying about his friendships with other women, and you choose to stay with him, you've got a long road ahead of you.
> 
> My WS has KISA issues and I'm very capable/indepedent, so it isn't me he acts out his KISA issues with. He tries to KISA both men and women and even falls right into his sister's manipulative crap, so not all of it is sexual (other men/sister). However, it can eat up a significant amount of time/emotional resources and in some cases lead to affairs. It led my WS to have an EA/almost PA with his younger, drama queen coworker. Not so much now but then, he was easily sucked in by 'woe is me' drama stemming from other people. My WS is in his early 50's so the KISA crap obviously can hang around for ages past one's 20's.
> 
> ...


You've described him exactly. It's scary. 
He totally has this. 
At work, family, and his male friends, too. You're absolutely right. 

We talked yesterday. Same old story. They are just friends, etc. he says the reason he checks her FB so often is because he gets worried when he doesn't get a hold of her. I am sure that's a lie, even if its true its still awful. Bottom line is that there's someone else on his mind and/or in his heart. That's a no-go for me. 

I tried to recover the texts. Problem is, they aren't texts, they are iMessages. They don't recover like texts. I only see random words that I am assuming are web searches or bits of texts and other random regular texts and some deleted browser history.

So I guess I'll never know what they say to each other, unless someone knows how to recover iMessages. He insists it's strictly platonic, and they just lament to each other - blah, blah, blah. His actions say otherwise. They speak volumes. 

I did mention KISA syndrome to him. He admits he feels like that, but never realized the extent. 

Although he said he'll cut ties with her, I don't believe it will last. He still says I can meet her. Seriously? I really don't believe contact will end when he says those kind of things. 

He says he doesn't want to lose me. No one means more to him than me. He says he'll forsake anything, anything, anything and do anything to keep me. 

Unfortunately without trust I can't handle it. I cannot handle this huge elephant between us. Another woman is on his mind. A lot. And he won't admit anything to me. 

Again, if there's anyone out there who knows how to recover iMessages please send me a message, I'd appreciate it. I also wonder if there's any good keyloggers for iPhone.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> You've described him exactly. It's scary.
> He totally has this.
> At work, family, and his male friends, too. You're absolutely right.
> 
> ...


The fact you're doing your nut in trying to recover these messages should a red flag in itself. You don't trust him, so what? After one or two months you're going to start looking over your shoulder again to see if they're in contact again?

He can cut off all the contact he likes, but if she wants to get in touch with him she will, you nor he can stop that.

I've been where you are *but with a lady obviously  * checking on phones, trying to install software to read texts, wondering where she was when she went out or to party. If the behavior is consistent, your heart and head already know the truth but somehow you still seek validation, little threads to cling onto to continue the relationship, then you're in trouble.

You *shouldn't* have to keep having these conversations about another woman, friend, damsel or not, he keeps doing what he's doing because you're not enforcing your boundaries. He gives you a lame ass excuse and you swallow it, however much you protest.

You've been warned, re-warned, flags hoisted outside your house, in your house, sirens going off, you proceed because you're not oblivious but then when the train wreck happens later on ultimately you can't blame him. He's already shown you who is. You choose to ignore it.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Bob, 
You're absolutely right. 
My faith in humanity is nonexistent. 
Is anyone loyal? Trustworthy? Faithful?
Is there?
Do I leave the best relationship I've ever known just to move along to the next liar? Is everyone a freaking liar?

Because if this man is a liar, I cannot fathom what others are like. A wolf in sheeps clothing is the understatement of the year with him. He's my dream come true. 

But a liar. How can everything else be so perfect? I hate this.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

It seems to me he would find a way to recover the texts and do everything in his power to PROVE to me this isn't what it seems. 

But he says as little as possible. 

But then again if it were kosher from the start I wouldn't be upset at all. Etc, etc, etc. 

Sorry for carrying on. I just can't get over this.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> Bob,
> You're absolutely right.
> My faith in humanity is nonexistent.
> Is anyone loyal? Trustworthy? Faithful?
> ...


He absolutely may have the best traits going for a man, hard working, provider whatever. Noticed a post above about him saving damsels in distress. To you, he's a young lad not capable of such deceptions. Early in your relationship he may have known he ticks all the right boxes, after all courtship is about projecting your best attributes isn't it, no one reveals on the first date that their prone to the green eyed monster or horribly controlling, if all roses, laughs and sunshine.

You have a children and you're not only looking out for yourself but for them. What are the chances that a reliable man comes along who's not only great with you but takes on your kids and is great with them too? 

I don't know this man, this lady could be his one blind spot and he keeps lying to compound his previous lies, but no matter how he portrays himself he still seems to be a little immature and untrustworthy.

Sometimes and better to cut and run before the kids get way too attached.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thanks for your replies. This place has been a godsend to me thru this. 

I think I might go to my moms for a few days. I need some time alone. 

Like you said, I have my kids to think about. I was hoping to keep them out of this, but if we go to my moms for a few days I think they'll catch on that something's not right. But I have to think. I am not doing myself any good by being around him right now. I'm too upset to play nice.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Not to mention I know he bought me an engagement ring. 

It was part of the recovered web history. 
:/


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

As my own cheating wh0re and infidelious STBXW said to me in the past. 

Men and Women cannot be friends unless one of them is Gay or they are relatives or family.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> As my own cheating wh0re and infidelious STBXW said to me in the past.
> 
> Men and Women cannot be friends unless one of them is Gay or they are relatives or family.


This is my new relationship creed. If you ain't a friend of the relationship, it's a no-no.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

NotMarriedyet, even if your partner is a KISA, I would think your having two children that need care and guidance (as ll children do) would be enough of a project for him. Do you try to be that "independent woman" that can do without a man if she has to. How do finances get divided up in your household.

Also, I feel for you when you contacted his friend directly and she repsonded by contacting him. that did happen to me with exH's friends.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> You've described him exactly. It's scary.
> He totally has this.
> At work, family, and his male friends, too. You're absolutely right.
> 
> ...


The KISA crap is a no-win situation for your position in this situation; believe me, I've been there, done that. One of the reasons it's a no-win is the exact situation you've got going with your boyfriend now.

Another reason is the KISA is addicted to "over helping" people in distress. I'll give you an example. My sister-in-law (WS's older sister) is a chronic damsel in distress. She always has problems she would prefer others fix for her, even though she's 55+ years old. You can't just help her once because once you do, she's there every week with her hand out, even if the next request is something she can solve/pay for easily on her own.

Back in the day I would have just put my foot down and looked like the "bad guy" for not wanting to help the sister. Even though those who made comments would have no idea his sister would call/text/email relentlessly until she either got what she wanted or exhausted herself and gave up.

Basically, you've got a guy who puts others' needs ahead of that of his family because he's a white knight type. He's trying to look like the good guy, trying to get an ego boost, or perhaps there's something sexual going on. Maybe it's all three, who knows. The fact there is secrecy involved with his friendship is a HUGE red flag.

In my mind there's no one who's "perfect except for the lying." Chronic lying is a character flaw. In any case, why be with a liar and/or anyone who willingly chooses to put others' needs ahead of the person they are in a committed relationship with?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> NotMarriedyet, even if your partner is a KISA, I would think your having two children that need care and guidance (as ll children do) would be enough of a project for him. Do you try to be that "independent woman" that can do without a man if she has to. How do finances get divided up in your household.
> 
> Also, I feel for you when you contacted his friend directly and she repsonded by contacting him. that did happen to me with exH's friends.


The kids are a huge project and priority for him. He loves them and spends time with both of them separately, he has fostered amazing and close relationships with them both. They love him, adore him, they look to him as a father as their father is nowhere to be found usually. 

Their biological father doesn't bother to call or arrange visits, cooperate or pay child support. To say he is an absent father would be an understatement. The kids have even stopped asking to call him. I suppose that's beside the point?

I've always been very independent, I've had a good job since I was 18. I've been a single mom for 7 of the 12 years I've been a mother. Besides their father, this is the first man I've been with (seriously, relationship wise) or brought around my children in 7 years. 

He and I split the bills, it's nearly equal. He pays a bit more than I do. We have one joint savings account for our future together and also our own separate accounts. 

Thank you for the kind words. It's a comfort to know there are others who've been in my shoes. I'm sorry you had to go through something similar as well. 
I'm here for anyone that needs me. I plan on trying to be more involved encouraging others around here once I get my wits about me again. 

I am totally floored. I cannot believe the man who would do anything for me, anything at all that I ask - refuses to give me what I need the most. 

Not another woman on his mind. His whole heart. My gut knows a part of him must belong to her. A part of him I've yet to know or see. As long as she is on his mind and he needs to check up on her constantly, I refuse to call myself his girlfriend. I will accept nothing less than what I've given him, which is all of me.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> In my mind there's no one who's "perfect except for the lying." Chronic lying is a character flaw. In any case, why be with a liar and/or anyone who willingly chooses to put others' needs ahead of the person they are in a committed relationship with?


Very true. He kept begging me yesterday. When I mentioned KISA to him, I saw a light bulb go on. He realizes he does it. He is begging me to stand by him. He says he is grateful and needs me to be there and help him thru it, that I can alert him to things when he's trying to save someone and doesn't realize. 

I don't wanna be a babysitter. I cant babysit if he lies anyway. Ill never know. If he will get help, then fine, I'll stand by him. But he needs professional help as this is an issue with all aspects of his life.

He's been researching it since I mentioned it yesterday. I gave him several examples and it did seem like he accepted its true. 

Thanks for your invaluable insight.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

To go back and answer your broader question, the question of opposite sex friends was never really discussed as a boundary before my wife's EA. 

Now there is absolutely no friends of the opposite sex permitted. She is to have no individual personal time with another male. We can go out as a couple, go out with other married couples, but there is no GNO and no girl + guy-friend stuff ever again.

My wife is genuinely remorseful, and the difference between her actions and your BF's are striking. She did the NC and purging him from her FB and other places immediately and without my demands. Yours says he will break it off, but won't on his own. He already should have done this. You are going to have to demand it and then demand constant verification. Yours is trickle-truthing you about the situation, sadly. You keep having to pry and pry, only to get another small sliver of the truth out of him each time, all the while trying to run interference on this girl because he won't end it decisively.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> Very true. He kept begging me yesterday. When I mentioned KISA to him, I saw a light bulb go on. He realizes he does it. He is begging me to stand by him. He says he is grateful and needs me to be there and help him thru it, that I can alert him to things when he's trying to save someone and doesn't realize.
> 
> I don't wanna be a babysitter. I cant babysit if he lies anyway. Ill never know. If he will get help, then fine, I'll stand by him. But he needs professional help as this is an issue with all aspects of his life.
> 
> ...


Yes, you shouldn't have to babysit another adult for any reason. 

My WS is in IC because of the adultery but the KISA stuff came up along the way. He and his therapist are addressing it. I have noticed my WS is starting to see the err of his ways and the sort of person his KISA behavior attracts into his life and ultimately our lives; the xOW, his sister, others. I wouldn't say he's out of the woods but there has been improvement.

I would say IC is a must, for the KISA behavior along with the lying and sneakiness. Good luck.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Is a KISA better or worse than a white Knight?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh hey guy I don't know. I think there is a difference from being a protector and trying to fix someone.

I have not been following this topic. I will just say that I am wifes wingman and she is my wingwoman. This has saved our marriage. We look out for each other. One has to understand the tunnel vision that we have when we are very close to things. They have to understand the mating ritual. The brain chemicals at play. Our judgement gets impaired with our firends. We love them already. Our boundaries slide for them becuase of this. This is where EAs are incepted. Having a spouse at your wing can help you see things that are obscured. Being an adult is not enough. One has to have a clue as well.

Blind trust is ambivalent, lazy and for sure naive. Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by-product. Anyone who thinks that their character is all they need to protect them from an EA does not realize that a requirement for an EA to begin is to have this attitude.

So while I am for sure my wife's Dark Knight she is my Guardian Angel. This has worked for us for 36 years.

I can see the reference above is to a man who was a KISA for another woman. NFW. This is very messed up. That said I can see how this happens. This happens with EAs as a man wants to become the protector for them. Bad idea. I get helping friends but this is just another reason why having close opposite sex friends becomes a problem.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Ugh - we've had this conversation many, many times in our house. BH is a rescuer. He's the one many of his female friends turn to in a crisis to help them through it. 

I can tell you as the other half, it is very hard to take.

There is a point where the conversation has to be had of where you feel the boundaries should be and asking him to respectfully abide by those boundaries out of his love for you. 

I wish I had taken my own advice years ago since it would have saved me many years of feeling 'lesser' than the others.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> To go back and answer your broader question, the question of opposite sex friends was never really discussed as a boundary before my wife's EA.
> 
> Now there is absolutely no friends of the opposite sex permitted. She is to have no individual personal time with another male. We can go out as a couple, go out with other married couples, but there is no GNO and no girl + guy-friend stuff ever again.
> 
> My wife is genuinely remorseful, and the difference between her actions and your BF's are striking. She did the NC and purging him from her FB and other places immediately and without my demands. Yours says he will break it off, but won't on his own. He already should have done this. You are going to have to demand it and then demand constant verification. Yours is trickle-truthing you about the situation, sadly. You keep having to pry and pry, only to get another small sliver of the truth out of him each time, all the while trying to run interference on this girl because he won't end it decisively.


I understand how hard the cheater attempts to hold onto their lie. I was wondering if a fully converted and transparent relationship partner is more fun than one that might be a little slicker and slide one in on you once in a while.

I know it's not fun at all to be lied to or cheated on!


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Sadly, he is not remorseful. Since he won't admit the relationship is inappropriate, in his mind (and as a front to me) its ok. So he's never shown remorse. Never apologized. 

The reaction I expected was: tell her no more contact, purge her from FB, etc.. Apologize for hurting my feelings, misleading me and lying to me, doing whatever he could in his power to prove the friendship was nothing more than that. 

But I can see it in his eyes: he's terrified of me seeing those messages.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> Sadly, he is not remorseful.* Since he won't admit the relationship is inappropriate, in his mind (and as a front to me) its ok*. So he's never shown remorse. Never apologized.
> 
> The reaction I expected was: tell her no more contact, purge her from FB, etc.. Apologize for hurting my feelings, misleading me and lying to me, doing whatever he could in his power to prove the friendship was nothing more than that.
> 
> But *I can see it in his eyes: he's terrified of me seeing those messages.*


Point out to him the complete contradiction.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Point out to him the complete contradiction.


Yes, I absolutely will. I think I need to collect my thoughts and be away from him for a day or two before I jump back into this. I feel like my head might explode sometimes!! Just the dumb nonsense that comes out of his mouth makes me so aggravated. It's all a made up lie, whatever comes to mind first. Ugh. 

Frustrated.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Godspeed and my best wishes. It sucks being here. It's the one social club no one wants to be part of.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> Godspeed and my best wishes. It sucks being here. It's the one social club no one wants to be part of.


The "cheated"


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm an official member. I feel like part of the group. 

As crappy as it is to be in this situation, I'm glad I found this place. It's good to know I'm not alone and can come here to vent, get great advice, try to help others, and open my eyes mostly!!

I'm still home. 12 hour days make it hard to face packing up for a couple days. I do have two days off this week, I will be getting some alone time. In the meantime I can only try to be cordial and keep my cool. But what I really want to do is SCREAM! 

Ok, sorry for rambling. I'm going to go write in a journal.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Ok, I wrote a template sort of. I don't plan on giving it as a letter, but rather having it in hand when we talk. We have the next several days off work and no kids will be around. I've collected myself a little, and I think it's time to address this so I can work at our future engagement, or work on separating. I bet lots of you will say it's too long. I agree, but it's just noted for me. 

Please advise me! Is this dumb? Too much? Anything I missed? Thanks in advance for your help you guys. (And gals) 


Notes/letter:

Usually I like to write pages and pages about how much I love and adore you, and how good you are to me. 

While I most certainly still love you, I'm not sure about the other things anymore. Matter of fact, you could say I'm positive those things aren't true. I really appreciated the letter you gave me on Tuesday. Although I liked it tremendously, It wasn't what I expected to hear, or what I deserve to hear. I feel like you are trying to move away from the real issue at hand. Truth is, after all of our discussions about the matter, I still KNOW NOTHING NEW. 

I thought about highlighting parts that I feel like you are rugsweeping or discounting our relationship issues, but decided to go ahead and write what I truly expected you to write and/or say to me, if you truly indeed are not having an inappropriate relationship with another woman. 

First of all, I never questioned the fact that I am on your mind a lot. The hurtful truth is just that I'm not the only one. I'm not your one and only. That's the reason you say, "you know you're my one and only" as often as you do. You're either trying to convince me, or yourself. I guess it really doesn't matter who. But as I said: here is what a truly remorseful person would have written. Someone who really is telling the truth (which you're still not) so here it goes:

(My name),
Please. I beg of you. Believe that I care nothing for no one else in the manner I care for you. Not even slightly. Not even a tinge of romantic or otherwise inappropriateness for another person. Please believe me! What can I do to prove to you I don't care for anyone else? There's nothing I wouldn't do.
Please let me prove it to you. How can I prove to you I don't care? I will find the texts myself. I will show all of them to you. I do not want your head filled with doubt. 
I apologize for even placing doubt there in the first place. I should have realized how you felt about this sort of thing the first time it all happened. I should have learned from that, but I didn't! 
I have put another woman in your place. I check her facebook a lot. I know I contradict myself in the fact that one day I tell you I rarely talk to her, it's a once in while type thing, and in the next breath I am telling you I must check up on her facebook page if I don't hear from her because I am so consumed with fear as to what might be wrong with the girl. It's become a problem. 

End of message. . . 

But you cannot say or write any of those things. Because it doesn't occur to you to say them. Because it's all lies with you, all the time. You could never tell me the truth. The truth mixes with you like oil with water. 

You're terrified of me seeing the messages. That's why you delete them in the first place! If there was nothing wring or inappropriate about the texts, you would have never gone to such great lengths to get rid if them, hide them, and never mention the relationship to me. Never. 

You shouldn't be turning to another woman.
I cannot understand why in gods name you cannot understand why it's so inappropriate or why it hurts me. 

Another fact is that you absolutely have no respect for me. You didn't have any when I told you I felt uncomfortable with you texting (her name), yet you continued to do so. . And you've continued to do that even after you've known it upsets me. 
The only conclusion I can draw from all of it is that you couldn't care any less about my feelings. You'll continue to inappropriately engage in emotional relationships with another woman even though it hurts me. 

You hide it well. You also allow her to undermine our relationship and publicly disrespect me on a public forum. She plays you well, just as you play me.

But I never play you, yet you hold allegiance to her. That's fine if that's what you want. But you cannot have me too, I'm sorry. You'll have to continue your other relationship that loves all the drama. I don't love drama, and I don't want to be a part of it any longer. 

You have NEVER taken ownership about this specifically. You've never apologized to me about this specifically. You are enthralled with another woman. Slice it any way you want. You call it 'worried', I call it 'enthralled'. You've never said you felt wrong about talking to her about anything, ever: yet you delete texts and hide the relationship? But if it's not wrong, why hide it? You say, "I don't know" YES YOU DO KNOW. You should have admitted it to me by now. You refuse to. It's hurtful.

Our relationship is not a relationship I want to have carrying on like this. Me having to worry about who you are carrying on with in an emotional capacity is hurtful. I don't want to live like that! Your highest of highs, lowest of lows, feelings, etc. belong to your partner. No one else. I get to share those things with you, no one else does. That's what a relationship is. She has her own friends to go to. Or boyfriends. But you are attached to her. Obviously. It has broken my heart, there's no way to repair the damage. You refuse to anyway. You're giving a part of yourself to another woman that is not me. 

This shouldn't be happening so early on in our relationship. Ten years down the road I could see having maybe ONE problem like this. But there's been too much deceit, and this early on, on top of it. It's a pattern with you, I am convinced you'll continually do it. That you NEED to do it. You cannot help yourself. 

You know what that tells me? That I'm not enough for you. Otherwise you wouldn't do it. You need other people, you aren't getting what you need from me. That's obvious. That's why you're constantly saying that I am your one and only. You're trying to convince yourself. 
I'm already convinced its not true. I have some of the proof in front of me. The rest you won't admit to.

So, you have the power to solve this. Hook up your computer in front of me. Plug your phone into iTunes in front of me, and back up your files in front of me. I can find the file that contains the deleted texts and I can read them.

If you truly have nothing to hide, you'll do it. If you refuse to do it, I'll know you do indeed have something to hide. And you can count on this: I will be done. I won't allow you to stand in front of God and all of the people in our lives that we care about and LIE. Forsaking all others for me. That's not true. I can't do it, I won't allow it. It hurts to the depths of my soul. It hurts too much. And I will begin shutting myself down and rebuilding my wall. You will never have all of me. The same way I don't have all of you. 

So, prove yourself to me, or lose me.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Please take this out. 



> This shouldn't be happening so early on in our relationship. *Ten years down the road I could see having maybe ONE problem like this. *But there's been too much deceit, and this early on, on top of it. It's a pattern with you, I am convinced you'll continually do it. That you NEED to do it. You cannot help yourself.


You're not married to him and the kids aren't his. I told my fiance (before he was my fiance but still asking for more time) that he could either keep his "friend" or he could have me as a girlfriend, but he could not have both. 

Fortunately, we weren't living together at the time, so my plan would have been to simply see him less ......and less.

For you, you should decide what you would need to do for either or both of you to move out. 

Consider yourself lucky that this problem showed itself sooner rather than later. I think what helped me was that he knew that it was easy for me to move on. Despite his stupid jokes about my age ( which I now know was inspired by his 20 something "friend") he did admit that he knew when we went places that men were checking me out and that when we went to meetup activities in particular that the men who approached me were hitting on me. 

In other words, I had options and I could have left him in the dust. (I'm going to use some of Machiavelli's philosophy but tailored to women.....) You should carry yourself in a manner that shows that you know you have options too. Too much "'splaining" only says "I'm weak.....I hope to convince you." Convince him through your actions. 

Before you give him this talk, have you thought about moving out, what it would take, how long given rental agreements, finding another place other resources..... have that stuff to hand when you speak to him. What saved my relationship was the fact that he immediately agreed with me; offered to do an NC phone call or letter; when she texted him again, he said that he would text her anything I wanted him to say and so on....... If your guy hesitates, then say simply "well, I won't be keeping you......."

I learned from the last failed marriage, talk is cheap.... so don't waste your time doing it.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> I understand how hard the cheater attempts to hold onto their lie. I was wondering if a fully converted and transparent relationship partner is more fun than one that might be a little slicker and slide one in on you once in a while.
> 
> I know it's not fun at all to be lied to or cheated on!


There can't be real fun and intimacy without total trust, IMO. I think "fun" and "integrity" are not mutually exclusive terms.

As a BS, I can tell you there is ZERO fun looking over your shoulder constantly, worried why they are late, spying on their phone. It's a hellish existence.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I dumped most of the template. 

I basically told him he needs to find some way to recover the messages (I know there is one), do it, or I'm out. Or admit what they really say. I want both. 

I am not on the lease. I couldn't sign any legally binding docs at the time as I was going thru bankruptcy. His is the only name on the lust, I am an occupant. So if I go, he'll be sort of screwed. He can afford it, but his savings will take a hit. 

I have him my "ultimatum" of sorts last night. He hasn't spoken to me since. 

I will be leaving the day after Easter. It's clear he'll never be honest. I can't live like that.


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

This is interesting I had an opposite sex friend for years went to school together from aged 4 am 54 now .... He ended up being our best man when we married and our son's god father.... He married had a son we have maintained connections as families actually been on holiday together .... okay cut to the chase ... My husband left me 2 years ago for a younger model ... He helped me with the practical things in life ( should say... had actually left his partner some time before and we my husband and I had been his support)..... when the guttering fell down stuff like that.... Then one day over coffee and cake he tells me he has ALWAYS loved me and that I was the reason his relationship failed .... O. M. G. did I know well kind of.... Now we are together and life is wonderful our kids all know each other and believe it we actually go out with my husbands new partner and all the kids yes that is odd but works for us as for me there had always been a connection with him that I never felt with my husband cant explain how . So watch out it could be there and if given the chance love will find a way......


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Annie 54 said:


> This is interesting I had an opposite sex friend for years went to school together from aged 4 am 54 now .... He ended up being our best man when we married and our son's god father.... He married had a son we have maintained connections as families actually been on holiday together .... okay cut to the chase ... My husband left me 2 years ago for a younger model ... He helped me with the practical things in life ( should say... had actually left his partner some time before and we my husband and I had been his support)..... when the guttering fell down stuff like that.... Then one day over coffee and cake *he tells me he has ALWAYS loved me and that I was the reason his relationship failed* .... O. M. G. did I know well kind of.... Now we are together and life is wonderful our kids all know each other and believe it we actually go out with my husbands new partner and all the kids yes that is odd but works for us as for me there had always been a connection with him that I never felt with my husband cant explain how .* So watch out it could be there and if given the chance love will find a way......*


How this piece of advice is useful precisely at this forum scapes me. As a cautionary tale? A message of hope?


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

okay you know best It would seem I'm out....


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> How this piece of advice is useful precisely at this forum scapes me. As a cautionary tale? A message of hope?


It's a caution to take it seriously and not let him sweep it under the rug because there is often more there than "just friends" no matter what they say.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

I have tons of female friends. I also have a girlfriend. It's not up to those girls to do the right thing, it's up to me. One of them offered to show me photos of herself and I politely told her that I didn't think I should. She was disappointed but understood. The ease with which situations are diffused is directly related to how much willpower we have.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Annie 54 said:


> This is interesting I had an opposite sex friend for years went to school together from aged 4 am 54 now .... He ended up being our best man when we married and our son's god father.... He married had a son we have maintained connections as families actually been on holiday together .... okay cut to the chase ... My husband left me 2 years ago for a younger model ... He helped me with the practical things in life ( should say... had actually left his partner some time before and we my husband and I had been his support)..... when the guttering fell down stuff like that.... Then one day over coffee and cake he tells me he has ALWAYS loved me and that I was the reason his relationship failed .... O. M. G. did I know well kind of.... Now we are together and life is wonderful our kids all know each other and believe it we actually go out with my husbands new partner and all the kids yes that is odd but works for us as for me there had always been a connection with him that I never felt with my husband cant explain how . So watch out it could be there and if given the chance love will find a way......


This sentiment is not sane.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I am convinced there must be underlying feelings there somehow. Otherwise there would not be all of this secrecy. 

I am convinced he will never admit it to me. 

I am convinced if it's not her, it will be someone else because he likes the ego boost. It seems their contact escalates whenever there is a bump in the road with me and him. 

I also told him that if the shoe were on the other foot, there is nothing I wouldn't do to squash any bugs of doubt in his head. 

Walk on water, on hot coals, give him my phone, passwords, etc. on and on. If he accused me of such a relationship and it was definitely NOT the case, there is no way in h*ll I would allow him to suffer pain thinking it is anything other than a platonic friendship. There's no mountain I wouldn't climb to ease his pain and win his trust. 

But he has not offered to do any of that.

I have my answer, it's all I need. Now I just have to get over it and move on. The hard part.  

I have come to the harsh conclusion that staying is not healthy for me or my children. I will constantly be unhappy and hold a grudge against him. It will never leave my mind. I'll always wonder who he is talking to and/or carrying on with.

I've given him very clear instructions how to fix this, and he's made his choice: to do nothing. There's nothing more I can do.


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

You carry on doing the right thing and hope real life doe's not come along and bite you in the bum... Vanguard .....


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> I have tons of female friends. I also have a girlfriend. It's not up to those girls to do the right thing, it's up to me. One of them offered to show me photos of herself and I politely told her that I didn't think I should. She was disappointed but understood. The ease with which situations are diffused is directly related to how much willpower we have.


If your happy with your girlfriend, it takes zero will power to withstand one of your females friends attempts to show you a pic or to take you.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I do agree it's not up to those girls to do the right thing. However, I do think it is up to them to have some respect for their so-called male friend's relationship.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

notmarriedyet said:


> I do agree it's not up to those girls to do the right thing. However, I do think it is up to them to have some respect for their so-called male friend's relationship.


and if you're having to say "no" often, then may be you should get rid of those friends who are constantly chipping away at the boundaries.


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

if they had respect they would not offer the pictures in the first place...


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

So we haven't spoken all morning. 

We're having a friend over for dinner, (its been planned for some time) and I am getting the house presentable. 

I notice he set his computer out and is charging it up. 

Hmm.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

NMY, there is also the age difference, sadly. If I recall, he's 23. (Yeah, yeah, a "mature" 23, whatever that means.) 

You are not only competing with a woman who he's known longer. She has only him to think about and make feel important. You have kids that need you.

Also, mature for his age or not, I do not know many 23 year olds who can honestly "man up" and become a full-time father figure and husband. He's still a kid; still feeling the urge to sow wild oats. Still trying to figure things out. Remember back to that age for you - did you REALLY know what you were doing, or where you winging it and faking it a lot?

The sad fact is, he has the need to rescue the damsels in distress around him. The girl who gets in his face for help all the time, and the older woman who needs help raising her family. He sees both of you, in some way, as victims. He's drawn to women he views as needy. (That's not an insult - my mom was a single parent for 15 years and she is one of the bravest people I know).

You are better off, honestly, with a man your age or even slightly older, with some life experience and maybe a kid or two of his own.


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> So we haven't spoken all morning.
> 
> We're having a friend over for dinner, (its been planned for some time) and I am getting the house presentable.
> 
> ...


See what happens an ordinary every day act becomes a matter why is he doing that !!!!!

Trust is the worse thing to repair we could not do it........

Hope you can if it's what you want?


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I am convinced there must be underlying feelings there somehow. Otherwise there would not be all of this secrecy.
> 
> I am convinced he will never admit it to me.
> 
> ...


He cant do any of the things you have asked because he loves the power and the way he can control both of you .... you are right it will never leave your mind ... i went to surprise my X once after a game of golf he was meant to be playing and his car was not in car park or his kit was not in the locker room .... went home when I asked how his game was he stood in our kitchen in front of our child and lied great got a birdie and two ducks (what ever) ... knew it was over.... No trust No point....


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> NMY, there is also the age difference, sadly. If I recall, he's 23. (Yeah, yeah, a "mature" 23, whatever that means.)
> 
> You are not only competing with a woman who he's known longer. She has only him to think about and make feel important. You have kids that need you.
> 
> ...


I think we all "wing it" and fake it a lot, especially as parents. They don't come with a manual. Neither does life, for that matter. I've had to be an 'adult' since I was 13, I had two seriously drug-addicted parents and a younger brother with major psychological issues. I was his parent then too. But I digress, the point is that we all get our maturity and 'adultness' from life experience. I do mention our age difference simply because he has less relationship experience than I do. A whole lot less. His family is extremely religious, and got into his head about a lot of relationship related things . . ie sex & marriage, etc.

I hope I made sense there . . . 

I would never take anything you say or advise as an insult. Not that I know you personally, but I have read many of your posts and I definitely respect your opinions and thoughts. I think you give great advice. You're not off point in most aspects of my relationship either. The thing about him not being ready to man-up is the only place I disagree with you. And the part where I need a man with kids of his own. Sometimes I think it would be a good idea, sometimes not. My mind is not made up on it. I don't want 'baby mam drama' : excuse the horrible 
cliche'. 

It has occurred to me that I might very well be his most needy case and that's why he has chosen to be with me. Because out of all of his nut case drama queen, needy women, I am the one who needs the most 'saving'.

When that thought crossed me mind, my chest hurt. There was that stabbing pain in my heart.  
That's my gut, saying "Ding, ding, ding!! We have a winner!!"


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Annie 54 said:


> He cant do any of the things you have asked because he loves the power and the way he can control both of you .... you are right it will never leave your mind ... i went to surprise my X once after a game of golf he was meant to be playing and his car was not in car park or his kit was not in the locker room .... went home when I asked how his game was he stood in our kitchen in front of our child and lied great got a birdie and two ducks (what ever) ... knew it was over.... No trust No point....


I think you're right that he loves the power over both of us. And I know for a fact it will never leave my mind. I cannot enjoy good times with him. It's always in the back of my head. I hated having to play nice over dinner this evening. 

So sorry about what happened with you. I can imagine how awful it was.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Annie 54 said:


> See what happens an ordinary every day act becomes a matter why is he doing that !!!!!
> 
> Trust is the worse thing to repair we could not do it........
> 
> Hope you can if it's what you want?


I thought he got the computer out to try and recover the texts. I thought he was going to try and prove something to me finally. 

But it's still sitting there, and he's watching TV. It makes me angry. 

But I definitely see what you're saying about everyday acts becoming suspicious. It's already happening with other things. Like if he changes his ringtone or something. 

Sorry for all the posts. I need to learn these forum tricks, or maybe they aren't tricks, just common forum sense? Like how to reply to several posts within one post? Is that what I should be doing? Sorry!!


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Did you ask him directly to try to recover the texts for you? I'm assuming so.

If so, what was his answer to your request?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I tried to recover them on my own from his computer (apple mobile sync back-up) I assumed I couldn't find them. I assumed they must be imessages and thats why i couldnt find anything. Then I realized the dates were from the first week of April last year. 

He hasn't plugged his phone in since. He rarely does anyway, so that's not suspicious. He rarely uses the laptop at all now, ever since he got a tablet. 
So I told him flat out I wanted him to get his laptop out, hook his phone up, and back up the current files. I know right where to find them. 

He dug it out earlier, set it in the table, and left it there. I think he's working up the nerve to hand over the phone?


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## Samus (Aug 28, 2012)

What model iPhone is it? iPhone 4, 4S or 5?

Try this program:

Try Wondershare
http://www.wondershare.com/disk-utility/iphone-sms-recovery.html

Pay for it if you have to for peace of mind. If I can't post link, just google, "recover iphone text messages" and wondershare is like the first link. Good Luck, I don't believe in opposite sex friends in a marriage.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I think we all "wing it" and fake it a lot, especially as parents. They don't come with a manual. Neither does life, for that matter. I've had to be an 'adult' since I was 13, I had two seriously drug-addicted parents and a younger brother with major psychological issues. I was his parent then too. But I digress, the point is that we all get our maturity and 'adultness' from life experience. I do mention our age difference simply because he has less relationship experience than I do. A whole lot less. His family is extremely religious, and got into his head about a lot of relationship related things . . ie sex & marriage, etc.
> 
> I hope I made sense there . . .
> 
> ...


Sometimes the crushing truth is exactly what sets us free.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I tried to recover them on my own from his computer (apple mobile sync back-up) I assumed I couldn't find them. I assumed they must be imessages and thats why i couldnt find anything. Then I realized the dates were from the first week of April last year.
> 
> He hasn't plugged his phone in since. He rarely does anyway, so that's not suspicious. He rarely uses the laptop at all now, ever since he got a tablet.
> So I told him flat out I wanted him to get his laptop out, hook his phone up, and back up the current files. I know right where to find them.
> ...


An innocent person would have handed it over immediately, if nothing else, to clear his name AND make you feel better. He's not innocent.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

No, he's not innocent.

He handed the phone over this morning. I've retrieved all the texts/info by backing it up to his computer. Now I am in the process of going thru all of them. 

My problem is I don't know how to use an SQLITE reader to make sense of all of it. However, the phone number is listed before the text, so I can tell who is talking,etc. it's just very tedious. 

No matter if I read them or not: it doesn't solve our problems. And there's an engagement ring on its way. I don't know what to do after I read all this mess.


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## Annie 54 (Mar 24, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> No, he's not innocent.
> 
> He handed the phone over this morning. I've retrieved all the texts/info by backing it up to his computer. Now I am in the process of going thru all of them.
> 
> ...


You have hit the nail on the head no matter if you do read them or not it will not solve your problems.... just remembered something I did make two list ... one you like love about him and one you dislike or Hate ... strong word but you get the idea..... see if you can live with the negatives for the next how ever many years be very honest or it wont work.....


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Annie 54 said:


> You have hit the nail on the head no matter if you do read them or not it will not solve your problems.... just remembered something I did make two list ... one you like love about him and one you dislike or Hate ... strong word but you get the idea..... see if you can live with the negatives for the next how ever many years be very honest or it wont work.....


That's my problem. I hate a list ten miles long for all the reasons I love him. 

On the other hand: trust is the only negative, yet most important thing to me. 

He's taken too long to man-up about this one and become totally transparent, but he has done it. He doesn't have much relationship experience, which is both a good and bad thing, because I can guide him ... But that's also a bad thing, having to guide him. 

In all seriousness, we've had our talks, we will continue to do so, set boundaries, etc. I am happy that he did do all that I asked of him. We have a lot of work left to do, but I suppose every relationship does...


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

I believe in a marriage there can't be an opposite-sex confidant for either of the spouses. I would not tolerate my husband having a female "best friend" and I wouldn't have it the other way around either. It's out of the question.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

So it's taken me this long to sift thru all the texts in his phone log and his call log. 

I only found TWO different text exchanges between them. From last summer til last week. 

One was her asking him not to tell her sister they were ever in contact if she happened to call and ask. The other was him telling her about the FB post I made, asking her to look at it and respond to me. (Which she never did)

Anyway, it doesn't seem that big of a deal, I check his FB messages several times a day and there's nothing. He has no other chat apps on his phone and she isn't in his call log so they don't speak on the phone either. 

It was still fishy & ridiculous. I told him its obvious she's jealous of me because she won't talk to me, and she has a crush on him and how foolish of him not to notice. 

The infrequency of their conversations (as it seems) has totally floored me. There is nothing in his texts. Nothing. Just texts to me, his family, and a couple of his close male friends. I don't get it. 

I should be happy, but I'm only more confused. Now I'm suspicious he somehow got rid of the texts, but there's no way! 

???


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

OK, I've run into a serious problem. 

The night I told him I wanted him to back up the phone, he said nothing. The whole next day, he said nothing. 

Then the following day, he got the computer out and backed it up. 

I searched thru the texts, seemingly innocent enough. 

Today I find his google search history - on the day in between he frantically searched for ways to get rid of the texts. So somehow, he did. 

Also googled applications to 'secret' text, non-traceable texting apps, etc. 

Without giving away my source (google account web search) how should I approach him? 

I do NOT want to give away my information source. He'll turn the web history off in a flash.

In other words, how do I say, "I know for a fact you purged those texts somehow, and now you're using a different medium/application to communicate with these women/girls"


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> OK, I've run into a serious problem.
> 
> The night I told him I wanted him to back up the phone, he said nothing. The whole next day, he said nothing.
> 
> ...


What is your goal here? To convince a cheater that cheating is wrong? This is who he is. You are not married to him. Be thankful for that. Why waste any more of your time or your thoughts on him? He is not worth it.

You have confronted him, he knows what this is about, and he IS NOT going to give up this other girl.

I am sorry for the effect it will have on your children.

If you want the closure, show him how you know. Print it all out, lay it out for him, draw him a road map of everything you know and how you know it.

Or, just tell him it's over. Tell him you know he deleted the questionable texts and you know he's been hiding stuff and it's over, goodbye, have a happy life.

Life is too short to waste any more of it on this guy. He is a great, great guy in many respects, but the one flaw he does have, is a fatal flaw, completely unacceptable. You can be a great kisser, great in bed, charming, funny, polite, caring, good with kids, a good provider - but if you can't remain loyal to your partner, if you are not trustworthy, if you are a liar - what good are all those other good qualities? Better if you find someone who is not as charming but more loyal.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Do you want to give him one last chance? It can't hurt to give him another chance, especially since you KNOW he will blow that chance just like he's been blowing every other chance you've given him. If you can't see that, you're too close to the situation, too caught up in the wishful thinking that he WANTS to change. He can change, but he doesn't WANT to.

She doesn't mind sharing him with you, she is messed up. So it's no problem for him on her end. But you are making him choose her or you, and by his actions, whether you want to admit this or not, he is choosing her.

But give him one more chance. You've tried and tried and you are thinking, "THIS TIME, when I confront him THIS TIME, he is finally going tor realize what he is about to lose and he FINALLY will change." Not gonna happen. But I understand the desire to try one last time.

So tell him that this girl must be cut out of his life completely, send a no contact letter, block her on facebook, change your phone number, NEVER contact her again. The no contact letter can say that for the good of his relationship with you, he wants no contact with her ever again, the choice is between you and her, and he chooses you. If she ever attempts to contact him again, he will file harassment charges against him. 

DON'T TELL HIM how you know anything, just tell him you KNOW it has been inappropriate, tell him you're not playing any more games, tell him you've had to drag him along kicking and screaming like a little child going to the dentist, and you're done playing that game. He either gives her up or hits the road. Tell him it's not open for discussion, he can have any friend in the world he wants EXCEPT for her, because you KNOW what has happened with her and there is NO WAY he will convince you otherwise.

It won't be too long before you catch him, he's not that good at hiding it now that you know what to look for. Then you can dump him knowing that you gave it your best shot and you gave him every opportunity to do the right thing.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

thank you for the info. thank you thank you a million times. It's all exactly what I need to hear. I'm printing out some things, going to read them to him, and make an action plan to leave him.

I don't get him. He bought a ring. Showed it to his and my parents. Told them his proposal plan. It's three weeks away. 

I guess I'll live with the broken heart, but as you said - this is a fatal flaw. If I cannot trust him, if it isn't me & him against the world, then we've got nothing. 

Thank you. I needed you guys and you came through. I hope I can help out around here as much as you all have helped me.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> thank you for the info. thank you thank you a million times. It's all exactly what I need to hear. I'm printing out some things, going to read them to him, and make an action plan to leave him.
> 
> I don't get him. *He bought a ring. Showed it to his and my parents. Told them his proposal plan.* It's three weeks away.
> 
> ...


This is the most disturbing thing of all. WHO DOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS? Sure, we've seen it on this forum a number of times, and I know a bunch of times I've seen it with friends and acquaintances, but what kind of person proposes and gets married while carrying on an affair? 

To me, it is the sign of a COMPLETELY BROKEN MORAL COMPASS. 

That he could be actively in an affair with another woman, and STILL want to get married to you.

And make no mistake, he IS screwing that other woman. Or should I say girl. Because she seems so 9th grade to me.

That is why he has not let you see those texts - he can NEVER let you see those texts. 

It would be the end of your relationship if you saw them, and it will be the end of your relationship if you do not. 

He figured his chances were better by NOT showing them to you. 

Again, not willing to own up, not willing to be honest - the sign of a man with weak character. No matter how he appears in all other aspects of his life.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> thank you for the info. thank you thank you a million times. It's all exactly what I need to hear. I'm printing out some things, going to read them to him, and make an action plan to leave him.
> 
> I don't get him. He bought a ring. Showed it to his and my parents. Told them his proposal plan. It's three weeks away.
> 
> ...


I really don't understand why you are still with him after all this; seriously! And you're considering marriage? Do your self a favor, run as far away from this guy as you can.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Yep. No moral compass. No integrity and absolutely no loyalty to be. 
I am totally crushed. I broke down and lost it earlier while he was at work. I've yet to do that in this relationship.

Here's his search history:

How to delete SMS texts from mobile backup

How to get rid of texts from iPhone 4S

Do Texts actually get deleted?

How to disable text preview window

Does iTunes have a hidden text app?

The last one really made my stomach churn. I nearly vomited. 

Now I will look like a real charity case to my family. They're expecting engagement news. My mom is getting her wedding dress out of storage as we speak. Unreal. 

Thanks again guys. ...


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

notmarriedyet said:


> Yep. No moral compass. No integrity and absolutely no loyalty to be.
> I am totally crushed. I broke down and lost it earlier while he was at work. I've yet to do that in this relationship.
> 
> Here's his search history:
> ...


Looks like once he figured out how to delete the texts, his next step was to figure out how to evade detection again. 

Your friends and family will support you, they will be happy you found out now as opposed to later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

So sorry my suspicions were right. Take care of you, and move on. 

You will never be able to trust him ever again.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> Yep. No moral compass. No integrity and absolutely no loyalty to be.
> I am totally crushed. I broke down and lost it earlier while he was at work. I've yet to do that in this relationship.
> 
> Here's his search history:
> ...


I'm so sorry for you. This may not help, but it's also very fortunate you found out now, and not right before the wedding, or after having his kid, or ten or twenty years from now.

That probably doesn't help. But, it's true.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm embarrassed to report I have not left. 

:/

Not sure why I'm holding out. At this point, we are in a sort of limbo, where I resent him, and he grovels. 

I do want to work things out. But I cannot live like this. He's begged and pleaded and everything in between. He's offered to get his phone records as far back as they can go. 

I know this sounds like I'm making excuses, but I have done lots more research. There's no way he could have deleted any of those texts. Not possible. 

He also claims part of his google "research" was to find out HOW I figured out text recovery, so he could do it to me. He says he feels violated. 

There's other things besides texts that inadvertently turned up, like his frequent porn viewing. All day, every day. No exaggeration. And an infatuation with a certain actress. 

I'm distraught on so many levels, but we've built so much together. I understand we are not married. But having been married before, I can truly say I've more invested in this than I did my marriage. I don't want to throw it away. Well, I suppose he did. 

I haven't updated the thread because I'm ashamed for not leaving. But I want to come here and try to comfort/help others. This is a great forum. It's an amazing feeling to know I'm not alone.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

What he's doing to you, claiming to feel violated, is called gaslighting. This is a common tactic to either spread the guilt or shift it entirely onto you.

Also, his search explanation was a flat-out lie.

He DID NOT search to find out how to RETRIEVE texts.

He searched how to HIDE THEM.

Don't let your hope of what he ought to be cloud your judgment. Take him for what he is.

You're his live-in girlfriend. He's cheating.
He proposed and you are engaged. He's still cheating and now trying to find ways to hide it.
Once you marry, why in the world would you expect the leopard to change its spots?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

I know in my heart you are right. 

It breaks my heart that I finally let my guard down after all these years only for things to end up like this. It's a jagged pill to swallow. 

Tomorrow he works and I don't. I plan on seeing what he's been up to on the computer and tablet since then. He thinks I'm technologically ignorant which is a bonus for me. 

Not sure when enough evidence is gonna be enough for me. 

He has not proposed yet. I'm not supposed to know this, (my entire family does, my mom told me, plus I saw some web history) but it's supposed to happen the weekend of may 3. 

I'm not engaged. No matter what happens over the next two weeks, I will not say "yes". No way. 

I will at least let him know ahead of time to save himself the trouble. It's getting my words/thoughts together that's the tough part.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I haven't updated the thread because I'm ashamed for not leaving.


Please don't stay quiet if you have something to say!

No one here wants to make you feel ashamed for not leaving. (Well, some might, given the chance, but you won't have to deal with them alone.  )

You need a place where you can be completely honest with yourself and say things you might be scared of hearing.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I know this sounds like I'm making excuses, but I have done lots more research. There's no way he could have deleted any of those texts. Not possible.


I don't understand what you mean here. 

Please clarify, because its really important you have an accurate understanding, and, when it comes to technical questions and possibilities, I'm confident we can get the facts nailed down.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm with Piece here: you have no shame in not leaving. I would get after you for helping to rugsweep, but the decision to go or stay is yours to make.

My spouse was totally repentant and there is no contact with her EA partner. She immediately met and continues to meet my conditions, so I was able to stay.

Right now, yours is NOT stopping his EA / PA and is instead actively seeking ways to take it underground. This isn't the basis for reconciliation. 

I would start with another list , this time not of the reasons to stay (you already did that), but the CONDITIONS to stay. What MUST he do for you to consider R?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you so very much! That warms my broken little heart 

To clarify:

We both have iPhones. When you connect your phone to iTunes, it backs up ALL info from your phone. Even things that have been "deleted" such as texts and browser history. 

Police cyber forensics website says that you cannot alter the back up. In other words, whatever has been done on that phone, deleted from the phone or not, is actually still in the phone files somewhere. 
Those files are backed up into a folder on your computer and boy oh boy it is ALL THERE. 

So, he couldn't have gotten rid of any of the texts from his phone that he deleted. What I read from the back up files could not have been altered by him at all. 

Which is baffling, because its totally innocent banter. So why hide it? Why so desperate to get rid of it?


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Inland, 
I will be making that list tomorrow while at home with my thoughts. 

One to start: no girl "friends" who are not a friend to our relationship. Anyone else is an outsider. 

I did insist he listen to not just friends. We listen together, and he listens on his own. 

I'm sure I'll think of plenty more in the morning.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> Inland,
> I will be making that list tomorrow while at home with my thoughts.
> 
> One to start: no girl "friends" who are not a friend to our relationship. Anyone else is an outsider.
> ...


I notice your list is vague about this specific incident. A couple of others to consider:

1) You have passwords to all social media and electronics. You have the right to verify his trustworthiness for as long as you want.
2) Nothing is ever deleted again without you seeing it first.
3) He must come completely clean about his relationship with her. One chance to spill it all. Any lies or half-truths is grounds to later terminate your relationship.
4) This specific female friend must go No Contact. Because he lacks boundaries with her, he must be willing to give her up completely. Even as a friend. You can't ask a fire to burn cold.
5) If you ever find out any of these (and the others you come up with) are violated by him, you're gone.

His reactions to these will tell you a lot about where his loyalties lay.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> Police cyber forensics website says that you cannot alter the back up. In other words, whatever has been done on that phone, deleted from the phone or not, is actually still in the phone files somewhere.
> Those files are backed up into a folder on your computer and boy oh boy it is ALL THERE.
> 
> So, he couldn't have gotten rid of any of the texts from his phone that he deleted. What I read from the back up files could not have been altered by him at all.


I don't want to out myself completely, but let's just say I have some specialized/professional knowledge here. That doesn't mean I know everything (I don't), but I know enough that after reading your words there are some loopholes that still feel present.

What tool did you use to examine the backup? I strongly doubt iTunes or windows explorer is going to give you visibility into things "deleted". I suspect it would take a specialized tool for that, maybe you used one, if so please let me know.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> I don't want to out myself completely, but let's just say I have some specialized/professional knowledge here. That doesn't mean I know everything (I don't), but I know enough that after reading your words there are some loopholes that still feel present.
> 
> What tool did you use to examine the backup? I strongly doubt iTunes or windows explorer is going to give you visibility into things "deleted". I suspect it would take a specialized tool for that, maybe you used one, if so please let me know.


I made him log in to iTunes and select "backup iPhone to this computer" then I accessed the mobile sync backup folder, and opened the folder (it's an sha long coded file name) that starts with 3d0d ... And read the file using notepad. Tedious, I know. But I went thru ALL of it.

That's the folder that all texts deleted or otherwise are supposed to be according to every site I've ever tried to find that info from. 

So I did not use any specific program. 

He knows I have all the back up folders, he doesn't know if I used a program or not. 

She hasn't texted him since January. 

Out of the blue last night she texted him. He showed me, it went like this: (and it's so juvenile I can't stand it)

Things (insert her name here) needs to do soon! 
One, get toned up for summer!
Two, finish this semester OMG
Three, have a card game night with you and (insert my name here)

Then about two minutes later, another:
I miss you. 

He claims he hasn't seen her since the summer before we started dating. We began in nov 2011. I don't know if that's true, but there is no way he's seen her at the very least since August last year when we moved in together. We work together and we are always together. If we are not, one of us always has one of the kids with us. And that's a rarity. 

Thank you, Inland. I will be using that example today. I have a lust ready, today is the talk day. Today he must call and tell her no more texts. 

And thank you sky for any advice you can offer about the texts. Never hesitate to message me!

Thanks for everything!


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh, sorry. I don't want to install any programs on his computer if I can avoid it. If rather him not know.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

notmarriedyet said:


> I made him log in to iTunes and select "backup iPhone to this computer" then I accessed the mobile sync backup folder, and opened the folder (it's an sha long coded file name) that starts with 3d0d ... And read the file using notepad. Tedious, I know. But I went thru ALL of it.
> 
> That's the folder that all texts deleted or otherwise are supposed to be according to every site I've ever tried to find that info from.
> 
> ...


I want this to work out for you, I really do! But, I want to be careful that you don't get fooled by the loopholes that may exist.


I am encouraged, a bit, by what you said about how you looked for the deleted messages in the backup. But, I'm not 100% convinced. I'll explain more a bit later.

If he uses ATT (and perhaps Verizon), he could log onto his account and show you the detailed message history. It would not show text content, but it would show (in ATT's case), the number and timestamp for each phone call and message sent/received. That, fwiw, was the big eye-opener for my wife's EA (2000+ minutes/month for several months).

Here's the worry I have about "deleted" messages. It comes from this info here, plus a somewhat detailed knowledge of how some of these things work some of the time:

Decipher Tools FAQ Support : Helpdesk


From what I've read, text messages "deleted" from the phone will sometimes still be present in the backup, *but not always.* 

For one, it depends on when and how the iPhone operating system reuses the space that the deleted messages were occupying (it eventually has to reuse that space). This is similar to regular files on your regular computer -- if you delete them, the contents of the files will still be present on the disk, and *may* be recoverable up until the point something writes new data in their place.

So, this sort-of-random behavior by the iPhone operating system could work against you here as you try to recover "deleted" messages. I suspect there are apps available for the iPhone that could scrub the deleted droppings of the iPhone as well (there are such tools for "regular files on your regular computer". And, if he has "jailbroken" his phone, then there are definitely apps.


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## notmarriedyet (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you so much for the info, sky!!

He has Verizon, he told me he would get the records. 

The day I confronted he was desperate to convince me he doesn't talk to her anymore. He said I could have his phone for a week or however long, etc. I told him no, and I let him know that I believed he took his "friendship" underground since I had done the back up. 

But he did indeed show me when she texted, he didnt have to do that I suppose. He has sent her a no contact letter via Facebook message, since we don't have her physical address. I told him, how can you be such good friends if you don't know where each other live? You can tell when someone has viewed a FB message, so it was acceptable to me. He's also blocked her number by calling Verizon. It only lasts 90 days, so we will have to call and renew it eventually. 

I know his phone isn't jail broken. I considered jail breaking it myself but I read that you cannot update iOS system over 3G or wifi which is how he updates after the phone is jail broken. That it will ruin the phone. Not sure if that's accurate...

Thanks again, you're advice is priceless and very much appreciated  
I still don't know what I'd have done without you all!!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

He should be able today to sit down with you and log into his Verizon account and pull up the records. At least a few years ago it was that easy with Verizon.


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