# What to do when it's not a team effort.



## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm not sure where to begin, because the is so much back story. Anyway, I think I have reached a point in my life were I am no longer willing or able to have a horrible sex life. Although it has been much improved in the last year or so I am loosing faith that it will ever get to where it is at lease an even compromise between our levels of desire.

This is the typical high desire husband and low desire wife scenario. We have had the sex talk many times in our relationship and that is all it ever is, talk. There is never any action to back it up. 

There has been a lot happen over the years. She has been dealing with major depression for several years, and she recently admitted what amounted to an emotional affair with an old boyfriend some time back. She also has told me recently of a short-lived case of sexual abuse as an adolescent, somewhere around age 12.

I am not perfect myself. I realize I have at times been emotionally neglectful of my wife and I have broken her trust at times. Not affair material, just things that were important to her that I did not live up to my word on. 

So we have trust issues, we don't communicate very well, and have a large sexual incompatibility. How we have managed 3 kids and 10 years of marriage is beyond me.

Anyway, to try and get to the point, we have had some ups and downs. It has become clear to me that my wife needs professional counseling to help her deal with her depression and trust issues, but is unwilling to seek help because we cannot handle the financial burden. I am trying to be more vocal about my emotional and physical needs as a husband, but it is falling on deaf ears. 

I just want my wife to desire me, to at least put in as much effort as I feel I do. The main problem is the depression. It is her scape-goat, and she uses it well. Nothing can ever be her fault and when you do call her on something she will get incredibly angry to deflect attention or power grab and then try to end the discussion. She did it to me about thirty minutes ago.


Last week she was making effort to be more direct with me about wanting sex and to be intimate. As per the normal routine, by the time we got the kids to bed and the evening to ourselves, she was tired and no longer in the mood. She also happened to be sick during the last week. Now while i understand the being sick part, if you indicate you want sex, please don't back out at the last minute. That is like dangling a $100 in front of a homeless person and then snatching away when they try to reach for it. After a few times they are either going to give up or get pissed. 

Growing tired of this treatment over several days I eventually just stopped trying. It was bothering me so much that I wrote my wife a letter to try and explain that all of this was much more about the emotional connection than the physical stuff. I was thinking that she might have a response. I got none.

For another week there was no indication from her about how she felt. Finally tonight I started a conversation about the note and it ended as most of them do, badly. I was calm and cool the entire time, and held to what I had put in the letter, she got more and more angry, and by the end of ten discussion she flat out told me that she was mad and that the discussion was over because she would not be able to continue without becoming mean.

She then went to bed.

Like I said, I am at the point where I no longer want to feel ashamed or stupid for wanting physical intimacy from my wife. I do not want to wake up when I am sixty and regret my entire marriage and life. I want this to work, but she doesn't seem to see the value in it. Sex just isn't important to her.

I guess this is my way of trying to work things out, since I don't seem to be able to work them out with her. If it is relevant at all, we have been married for ten years, have three kids, and we ae both 31.

Also as an aside, I typed this on an iPad so even after proofreading there might be a mistake or three.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't blame you for not wanting to stay in a marriage with someone who has no desire for you. It's rejection and a form of emotional abuse.

Are you seriously considering divorce?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I understand people have challenges, and your wife's depression certainly is one.

But, she's clearly crossed the line. Running a family is a heavy responsibility. If there is any emotional health issue, the adults need to strive to be those healthy and capable people the family needs them to be in order to thrive.

She is not trying to get healthy. She is not even trying to cope with her depression, seemingly. She is using it as a crutch and expecting you to deprive yourself by enabling her dysfunction. I bet she is not as present for your kids as she could be either.

Your stand should be that she needs to do her share in meeting your needs (and those of the family) as well as her own. If she is healthy enough to not have a psychiatrist or therapist, then she's healthy enough to not use her issues as a crutch.

I faced something similar, and IMO you may have to up the stakes (by asking her to move out and making the case that she is creating an unhealthy environment for the kids) to get her to take you seriously and drive change. Trust me when I say that she will play this out and use her "trump card" to ignore your responsibilities as long as she can.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

Previously my immediate response to the divorce question would have been a no, however more and more I find I have to think about it first.

This is one to the things that came up during our conversation tonight. She understands and says she feels bad for leading me on and then not doing anything, and posed the question of whether she should do something if she doesn't want to. Truly, even though it would feel good, I don't want here to do something if she doesn't want to do it, so what is that happy middle ground?

I think my big issue with this situation is that she doesn't seem to have the will to try. There's no effort to make an effort. There are things I do for her that I may not want to do but I know that they make her feel good, safe, wanted, and that is where my enjoyment comes from.

I don't know how to up the stakes without the "d" word coming up, and truthfully, I feel she is spiteful enough to take that threat all the way to the end. I actually want a happy life with her, I just am totally lost right now.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Poor guy, I totally feel for you. So, this is a tense issue, individual therapy is too expensive and she's not really interested. You say that she expresses her sorrow for you feeling rejected but she doesn't follow through on promises to try to get better.

What is the level of affection like between you two? Holding hand, cuddling, rubbing backs, scratching backs? Do you two ever gaze into each other's eyes? How about a bear hug and a pat or two on the fanny? Do you two flirt with each other? How much time do you two spend with each other,alone? Alone and NOT talking about the family or the kids? Do you regularly leave little notes of affection, naughty suggestions, or wax philosophical about her eyes? if I said to do these things 5 times everyday AND to spend at least one quiet hour with just her, no kids no TV no computer, would this be a hardship for you?

Women don't leave stress behind easily. Nor do they typically seek sex to relieve stress. Women don't use sex to connect, they connect then seek sex. 

Go to Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice with your wife and have long conversations about your needs and her needs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You cannot change her. You can only change yourself and how you interact with her.

There is a book or website about Married Man Sex Life that a lot of the guys here talk a lot about. Maybe you can check that out.'

Alll you can do it work on yourself. In time you will figure out which way you want to go.

A sexless marriage is a valid reason for divorce. Sexless is considered sex 10 or fewer times a year.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

Thanks, EleGirl, for the suggestion. Actually, I have been a regular visitor to Athol's site for over a year now. Have the book, too. I think in general the things he suggests would actually work if it weren't for the depression issue. Athol's and I have talked about this a few times, but it seems the issue basically boils down to my wife getting counseling. Suggestions for helping her along.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I've been dealing with a husband who has been depressed for years... 10 years. We are divorced now but he's still here.

What I have come to realize is that there is only so much I can do for a person who is depressed before it starts to bring me down. At some point the person with the depression has to be willing to work their way out of the depression and/or find ways to manage it. If they do not then they are choosing the depression over the relationship.

At some point you have to save yourself.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

wayne81 said:


> Thanks, EleGirl, for the suggestion. Actually, I have been a regular visitor to Athol's site for over a year now. Have the book, too. I think in general the things he suggests would actually work if it weren't for the depression issue. Athol's and I have talked about this a few times, but it seems the issue basically boils down to my wife getting counseling. Suggestions for helping her along.


I'm also a big fan of Athol's methods as well. But, experience has shown me that type of program does not work as well where issues such as your wife faces (my ex also has abuse and serious depression issues are involved).

My take on Athol et. al. is the woman wants more sex on two fronts. The first is your changes increase her desire (direct impact). The second is she is less secure - "I can be replaced so I'd better get to it if I want to keep him" (indirect impact). The underlying assumption (at least for the direct impact) is that if she likes you better she will want more sex with you.

The issue (in my amateur opinion) is people with these issues may not have a typical sexual response. If she's been abused she might not see sex as a loving act. She might see it as emotionally neutral (a duty or necessity) or even unloving. She may be resentful of the increased pressure. I saw my ex provide more sex from an anxiety-based response to my "program". But, without desire or therapy to deal with her emotional conditions, the will to have more sex was quickly replaced with resentment.

My recommendation is to still do the program and a "180", since you need to shake things up and clearly she's not responding to anything you've done so far. But understand that your wife may not (as noted above) have that normal sexual response. So, as crappy as it sounds, your goal might be not to stoke her desire so much as prove that you can do better than her.

Your push should be for therapy, not just sex, as the marriage change that will cause you to stay for the long term. I suspect strongly that, without professional intervention, any sexual improvement your wife makes will be short-term, leaving you with longer-lasting anger and resentment issues to resolve.


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

I think you and I married twins. I wrote her a couple different letters also. No response. My wife has physical and emotional issues which she uses as a crutch as well. She appeared to not give a flying leap about anything... so I moved out one day. Suddenly she whipped in to shape and begged for me to come back and couldn't keep her hands off me for a month. Now she's back to the old self...only this time I'm starting to fall out of love w/her because of her actions. 
I refuse to believe that you and I are such horrible husbands that we deserve the type of rejection we encounter. I'll PM you about what I'm trying now.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My wife was very similar to yours, although she refused to even get help to the point of being diagnosed as depressed. She didn't want to talk to her doctor about getting off birth control, even though she said (and I believe her) that it was contributing to her lack of libido and weight gain, which was causing her to want sex even less because she had self esteem issues. She would also refuse to do anything about her weight, which she was unhappy about (I was fine with it). She wouldn't go for walks, wouldn't use the elliptical we bought, wouldn't use a gym membership, kept sitting in from of the tv every night eating junk and drinking wine...

In the end, I decided that if she wasn't willing to work on our problems with me, then SHE was the problem. I didn't leave because she didn't want to have sex; I left because she wasn't going to try to fix things. So my options were stay and be unhappy, or leave and try to be happy somewhere else. 

Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in how you feel. As an FYI, I did end up having two affairs at the end of my marriage. Don't do that (not that you gave any indication that was an option for you). It fixed absolutely nothing, destroyed my integrity, and the end result was the same.

C


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

PBear said:


> Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in how you feel. As an FYI, I did end up having two affairs at the end of my marriage. Don't do that (not that you gave any indication that was an option for you). It fixed absolutely nothing, destroyed my integrity, and the end result was the same.
> 
> C


Hey at least you owned it and knew it was a bad idea. Most would just say their spouse made them do it.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

> My take on Athol et. al. is the woman wants more sex on two fronts. The first is your changes increase her desire (direct impact). The second is she is less secure - "I can be replaced so I'd better get to it if I want to keep him" (indirect impact). The underlying assumption (at least for the direct impact) is that if she likes you better she will want more sex with you.


You should really do the above, it works magic.



> The issue (in my amateur opinion) is people with these issues may not have a typical sexual response. If she's been abused she might not see sex as a loving act. She might see it as emotionally neutral (a duty or necessity) or even unloving. She may be resentful of the increased pressure. I saw my ex provide more sex from an anxiety-based response to my "program". But, without desire or therapy to deal with her emotional conditions, the will to have more sex was quickly replaced with resentment.


In order to avoid this, you will have to take away all the pressure. Stop making sex a big deal. This is done by:
a) Never start taking about sexual issues from your side, if she does minimize the damage by saying that everything is ok and that both of you should take your time..
b) Never getting angry when rejected, rather even laugh because my clients have proven to me that each rejection that is taken softly or with humor or ignored has somehow led to more initiation from the counter-side!



> Your push should be for therapy, not just sex, as the marriage change that will cause you to stay for the long term. I suspect strongly that, without professional intervention, any sexual improvement your wife makes will be short-term, leaving you with longer-lasting anger and resentment issues to resolve.


In order to get her ready for therapy, you will have to mention it in advance. The best way is to state that you would like to go on therapy with her within the next half a year. After this do not start this topic again till 5 months are finished. Most couples who had sexual issues didnt need to go for therapy within this period and after when the MAN took his duty serious in creating sexual tension within the relationship by modifying his personal traits and balancing the security/insecurity of their wives (some of the wives under my councelling admit freely that so long there was trust, certain type of insecurity was a thrill within the relationship..).


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> What I have come to realize is that there is only so much I can do for a person who is depressed before it starts to bring me down. At some point the person with the depression has to be willing to work their way out of the depression and/or find ways to manage it. If they do not then they are choosing the depression over the relationship.


This is the consensus of pretty much everything I have read and researched in the last 1.5 -2 years. I find in concept I am totally in agreement with this, and would in fact offer the same advice if asked...but I just can't seem to get comfortable with it for myself.

On the other hand, when things are this bad it doesn't seem like such a leap, and I hate that. 

I appreciate everyone's thoughts so far. I need some processing time. I will check back later this evening.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> In order to avoid this, you will have to take away all the pressure. Stop making sex a big deal. This is done by:
> a) Never start taking about sexual issues from your side, if she does minimize the damage by saying that everything is ok and that both of you should take your time..
> b) Never getting angry when rejected, rather even laugh because my clients have proven to me that each rejection that is taken softly or with humor or ignored has somehow led to more initiation from the counter-side!
> 
> In order to get her ready for therapy, you will have to mention it in advance. The best way is to state that you would like to go on therapy with her within the next half a year. After this do not start this topic again till 5 months are finished. Most couples who had sexual issues didnt need to go for therapy within this period and after when the MAN took his duty serious in creating sexual tension within the relationship by modifying his personal traits and balancing the security/insecurity of their wives (some of the wives under my councelling admit freely that so long there was trust, certain type of insecurity was a thrill within the relationship..).


I can tell you doing my program did change my marriage. I did get more sex (for only six weeks). Why was it so short a period? Nothing increased her sexual desire for me. Her increased output was mostly fear of losing me. I know the fear was there because the extra sex was accompanied by clinginess.

Unsurprisingly, the adrenaline wore off (you cannot stay that way) and the sex dried up. And I did not pressure for sex. I would ask to try something, but never insist. I took rejection in good spirits. Nonetheless, she went all the way back to full refusal (even on a long weekend vacation without child that I put together, complete with the usual B.S. excuses). 

So, I strongly disagree that de-emphasizing sex is a good idea. Why lie and say everything is fine when it is not? What do you do when a guy says "don't worry about it", the woman takes him seriously, and later the sex is still bad?

It seems like you've made a bad situation worse. The sex issue remains. He is resentful because he has been putting forth effort without getting his needs met. and she is resentful because a problem she thought resolved has only been hidden.

Would it not be better to state up front "I'm patient, but bad sex will be a deal-breaker and if that offends you there's no point in going on"? That's a serious question. I'm at a loss as to how letting a problem fester makes it easier to solve. And I don't believe that my situation is rare - I see it too often.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

> So, I strongly disagree that de-emphasizing sex is a good idea. Why lie and say everything is fine when it is not? What do you do when a guy says "don't worry about it", the woman takes him seriously, and later the sex is still bad?


Have you ever been really presured to do something? Have you ever felt not to want to do sth but also had to defend your positon on and on? Did you feel better about it or did you start to create lies that could get you off the line?
When you gave in to what you didnt want, was it a release when you started feeling obliged to do it?

And now, how often do you do things with pleasure for others though they arant a big deal? Maybe the pleasure is that you arent obliged to do them but can enjoy the giving and recieving the thanks.

Short: Talking about sexual issues only drives the partner more away.
Your problem is lack of patience in changing certain traits of yourself and giving her the chance to get turned on by your new assertive but non-needyness.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> Have you ever been really presured to do something? Have you ever felt not to want to do sth but also had to defend your positon on and on? Did you feel better about it or did you start to create lies that could get you off the line?
> When you gave in to what you didnt want, was it a release when you started feeling obliged to do it?
> 
> And now, how often do you do things with pleasure for others though they arant a big deal? Maybe the pleasure is that you arent obliged to do them but can enjoy the giving and recieving the thanks.
> ...


I'm not sure what you are asking, so I'll explain my overall stance. I am a generous person when it comes to meeting other's requests. I get that my kids and my wife are not my clones and will not want to always do the same things at the same times as me. So, I accomodate greatly.

All I ask in return is that my wants are treated with the same deference. If you repeatedly take but will not give back, we have a problem. My ability to give back depends on someone else's ability to do the same. I simply cannot tolerate a serious imbalance indefinitely, but I have found that many women do expect to always be first, especially when it comes to sex.

I come from a family where we support each other and thus give cheerfully to each other; the key is everyone experiences the generosity. I brought that into my own family. I will fulfill a reasonable request whether it suits me or not. The requests I don't meet are harmful (like if my young child wants to skip school or my ex wants something we simply cannot afford).

Since I am disinclined to say no, I don't have issues where I say no as a response to pressure but say yes later. So, for better or worse, I don't buy into that scenario you depicted. And, my ex didn't buy into it either. I can't remember a "no" that became a "yes" on an issue that was important to me.

Your diagnosis of my situation is way off base. I did the "assertive but not needy" thing for well over a year (having sex once) before she initiated and all I got were those few weeks before it dried up. Are you seriously suggesting I should have been prepared to wait several years, or that I should be grateful for a few weeks of sex every year-and-a-half or so?

Here's an eye opener for you: she would have answered "yes" to those questions. She genuinely thought she deserved to be the priority. She felt she was entitled to have high standards and demand special attention but I was not.

I never complained to her about the sex drying up. Some time after that happened, I vented on a forum like this one about my extreme frustration and cheating was starting to seem like a plausible solution. She went snooping on my PC and found the post, and the sh!t hit the fan.

Was her reaction to apologize for cutting me off again and vowing to do better? Maybe an agreement to see a therapist? At least an apology for the poor sex and an offer to graciously end the marriage? No - her response was to vilify me, as in "all that sex you got and it's still not enough".

Here's another eye-opener: up until the day she moved out, and beyond, she resented me for my opinion of our sex life. Specifically, she conceded that the sex was bad and that she refused to put in the work necessary to make it better, yet insisted that I was out of line for making it an issue. She felt sex was for connection, not sexual satisfaction. Once a month intercourse was enough to meet that purpose, and anything more was a bonus she was free to give (or not) as she pleased.

Also, she resented that I MBed. She felt that doing so kept my drive high and created extra pressure for her. Ever read a book titled Every Man's Battle? After some opening anecdotes, it is a couple of pseudo-Christian guys who talk about their version of sexual purity and give pearls of wisdom like:

1) sex is not essential
2) you should not masturbate as that keeps your sex drive up and nocturnal emissions will take care of the biological need
3) if you ignore sex eventually your drive will dissipate and giving up sex is worthwhile to make your wife's life easier.

You guessed it - my ex bought me a copy of the book and left it out for me to find, clearly indicating that she intended us to live life as the authors and their wives did. The clear message was "if these guys can ignore their needs and serve their wives well, so can you".


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

DTO said:


> I'm not sure what you are asking, so I'll explain my overall stance. I am a generous person when it comes to meeting other's requests. I get that my kids and my wife are not my clones and will not want to always do the same things at the same times as me. So, I accomodate greatly.
> 
> All I ask in return is that my wants are treated with the same deference. If you repeatedly take but will not give back, we have a problem. My ability to give back depends on someone else's ability to do the same. I simply cannot tolerate a serious imbalance indefinitely, but I have found that many women do expect to always be first, especially when it comes to sex.
> 
> ...


Hey DTO here's some karma for you. One the authors of Every Man's Battle, Stephen Arterburn has been married three times. So I guess whatever he was preaching didn't work for him either. Actually, while he was writing Every Man's Battle that lovely wife who he kept worshiping in the book was cheating on him. And once he discovered her infidelity he begged her to reconcile. She left 2 weeks later. His 3rd wife was a woman he married after knowing her for 8 months when she came to one of his seminars. He had to marry a fan and a woman who idolized him because he doesn't know how to keep a regular woman. I'm a Christian man. But it doesn't pay to put someone's needs above yours. You should always strive for things that make both of you happy. I'm not sacrificing my happiness for anyone. I'm not getting married for that. It is crazy the sense of entitlement some people have. They almost seem evil to me.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

@ DTO

Thank you very much for your courage to explain in detail.



> I'm not sure what you are asking, so I'll explain my overall stance. I am a generous person when it comes to meeting other's requests. I get that my kids and my wife are not my clones and will not want to always do the same things at the same times as me. *So, I accomodate greatly.*


Letting others do what they want and accomodating to everything is a bad idea. You are too smooth in your marriage. Maybe you even dont have the flaws that turn women on sometimes, or let us better say you suppress those flaws intentionaly because you think beieng on good terms with everbody in the family is what makes everyone happy.. In my experience it is rather a bit of the other way around. *You have to have A FEW rough edges in order for your kids and wife to fully respect AND TRUST you as their father and husband.* These might not make any sence, but everyone of us likes to fix someone or at least do something for someone. The only time we dont love to do this is when we do not respect someone or feel like we are beieng forced too do the loving things. 

The force can be *direct *(you give orders or you make a deal) or it can be *indirect *(you do nice things too often and others start feeling they are in your dept (very bad!)).
Do not get me wrong! *Using a bit of force once in a while, or making a deal or doing nice things is neccesary in a relationship.* Both between you and your wife and also between you and each of your kids! It is only the dosis you apply which can change your position negatively.

Short: *Accomodation and standing your ground go hand in hand! *You cant just go for one, relationships are dynamic.



> All I ask in return is that my wants are treated with the same deference. If you repeatedly take but will not give back, we have a problem.


That is good and that should always be one of your motivations. The problem is that giving in a relationship is the same to selling a product in sales. If the demand is high, you can get anything in return, if the supplie beats the demand you have two options:
1. Reduce the price = reduce your expectations
or
2. *Reduce the supply* = stop giving for a while and focus on something/ someone else

Many men are cowards and prefere to go for no. 1!!! Or as kids they were used to recieve when giving and therefore hope keeps them doing the same mistake on and on.. _They are conditioned to be givers._



> My ability to give back depends on someone else's ability to do the same. I simply cannot tolerate a serious imbalance indefinitely, but I have found that many women do expect to always be first, especially when it comes to sex.


The biggest mistake you can make when you sense inbalance is to get angry or to call her on it everytime! You should always be relactant in calling her on everything she does "wrong" in your eyes. The best is to ignore most of it and tolerate some.

The only time you have to harshly call her on mistakes is when she insults you or is disrespectful. All the other times: keep a kind and soft voice. Even have some humor.
This might sound like beieng a whimp initialy, but *it is rather manly when you arent shaken by each nonsense* that is going around in your house BUT have some certain simple rules you stick to:
Rule 1: No ass-kissing
Rule 2: You are assertive and participate in desission making within the family
Rule 3: Allow others to win or allow them their assertiveness (It is like beieng proud of the assertiveness they have inheritade from you)
Rule 4: No whining around when your needs arent met. Rather withdraw a bit

Now, i am sure you are thinking how these relates to you geting more sex? Well, the reason you want sex so badly on regular basis is because it is rare (rare supplied) and because your wife turns you on. The clue is to turn the table some degrees around!
But the next problem is:
a) your wife is the supplicant
b) you really ignore what turns a woman on

One thing I can tell you is that it wount be possible for you to change point a) within weeks. So the only thing you can do here is to let go of your desire for "product sex" to a certain degree.

The things that turn a woman on are actually the things I have stated in the above paragraphs.

*1. Assertiveness*. Backbone (=stand your ground! Correct when needed, but ignore often or be tolerant)

*2. No ass-kissing* (= primarily stop doing nice things because you expect some in return.). Do nice things because you feel like doing them but not because you thing you get anywhere by doing them. When you do nice things which cost a lot of energy, do not over do them otherwise you become recentful when you arent recieving the same treatment!!!

*3. No whinning around*. Women love emotional men, but they also love to feel that their man is a man and not an additional son they have to take care of!!! So control following traits:
a) argueing
b) opening serious discussions every week
c) complaining about how unfair you are being treated
d) feeling hurt the whole time and wanting her to know it

*4.* I didnt talk about this point, but it is the base of fullfilling the upper points. *Behave positive* and jolie!! It is difficult in the beginning, but you will have to fake it an amount of time till you start to see the benefits. Then you start to believe in it.

*5. Be a seducer.* It is simple:
a) _Touching_: 
do some touching everyday (If she is not touching you in return then it is because you overtly touched sexually at the wrong moment or you have touched too often! Solution, withdraw and wait for her to touch you too!). Normally touching once an hour is enough to get both of you into touching (remember, keep the sex thing away at first! In process, YES, at first no! So *do not start with sexual but rather with fatherly touching* (=shoulder, back, arm). Sexual touching = stomach, head, hands, thighs, legs etc..). An important part of touching is *TEASING *= do not always respond to her touching. Stay calm and unshaken, women do this often and love it when you play it too.
b) _Communication_: 
This does not mean beieng open to discuss problems, this means NOT beieng open to discuss problems everyday. Once in a while yes, always NO!!! Communication also means *doing small talk with her.* Be interested in what she is doing or has been doing. She might close up because she might interpret this as beieng over curious. Ignore it and change the topic to what YOU have been doing! Meaning, communication is also talking about yourself or others or anything. Do not let it be an interogation.
Communication is also comenting once in a while as a way of giving *feedback*.

*6.* Your appearence:
If you arent yet. *Groom yourself a bit once in a while.* For yourself and NOT because you expect anything from your wife.

*7. Have a few flaws* that arent severe and do not defend yourself when questioned about them: "Darling, that is me,that is how I am". The only time you avoid this flaws is when you want to make her really happy!

Greetz


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> @ DTO
> 
> Thank you very much for your courage to explain in detail.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding in such detail.

I'm not sure if I made it clear enough, but I am talking about past experience. I have no wife, but an ex-wife. I can assure you that I tried everything you suggested, and none of it worked over the long term.

To bring it full circle, I still feel that you cannot treat a sexually abused woman the same as a well-adjusted woman where sexual differences are an issue (unless, of course, you have assurance that she has dealt with that trauma.

The basic issue is that you just cannot build sexual tension, no matter how easygoing you are about it. It's hard to build that tension when your SO starts equating you with her abuser.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

DTO and Psy.D. C. Maso, thank you for your viewpoints. I was starting to feel like my thread was being hijacked a bit, however I have found value in what you have both been saying.

I think generally speaking there is a balance to be found between your two angles. I can say from my own past experience that pretending it isn't a big deal only makes the partner think its not a big deal, and so nothing changes, leaving you to suffer in silence and grow resentful.

On the other hand, putting constant pressure on the issues can cause strain as well. The question becomes, how to determine that balance. 

I have always had a wide and varied sexual fantasy imagination, and whatever the reason, I have found that to be a healthy thing for me. I know it's getting bad when I begin fantasizing about my own wife doing "regular" things to me, rather than some exotic stranger I will never know in reality getting all freaky on me.

I have been the suffer in silence type for years, and I do feel I have an inclination to please others. I think I am ready to be pleased, for a change. She openly admitted in our conversation/argument the other night that sex just wasn't a big deal for her, and so by extension my feelings weren't important to her. I find that hurtful because she has no problems letting me know when I haven't valued her feelings enough. But what really gets me is I'm trying to discuss a real and serious feeling of upset in an adult manner, and she ends up getting mad at me!

It's a major double standard and imbalance that puts her in a very emotionally selfish light, and I just don't know how to work from that position. She seems incapable os admitting guilt or fault, and does not accept responsibility for things that are clearly "hers". Again, I really feel her depression is a major component of this, and that is where it needs to start. Maybe posting this in the sex section wasn't where it belonged, even though it did start with a sexual theme.

Please keep the suggestions coming.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

You mention in your first post things have been "much improved" over the past year. How often do you have sex now vs before? What is your "ideal" frequency?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

wayne81, how much have you explored the sex abuse angle?

Sex abuse rewires the brain. She was prepubescent at 12 yrs old so she did not have an adult perspective to understand the physical sexual side of things. Abuse usually involves some amount of coercion, deception, threat, and possibly violence. The victim may be rebuked by a trusted adult such as a parent she tells of the abuse. She may be told it is her fault or that she is a dirty child for having done it. She may feel all kinds of guilt and shame about what happened. If she enjoyed the touch or if she thought she was consenting it could lead to deeper psych issues down the road.

How was her sexuality in her later teens? How was her sexuality with you before marriage and after? Can you identify and particular trends or events when things changed significantly?

The thing about abuse is that the victim may really not understand adult sexuality at all. Your wife may still be stuck in a 12 yr old emotional state. She may have a conflicted view of sex being both horrible and being her power over men.

More later.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

> Maybe posting this in the sex section wasn't where it belonged, even though it did start with a sexual theme.


Posting this here was the best you could do. Many of my clients go for the therapy due to so many relationship problems and in the end it mostly runs to the sex-supply-problem. This is in 8 out of ten cases..



> It's a major double standard and imbalance that puts her in a very emotionally selfish light, and I just don't know how to work from that position. *She seems incapable os admitting guilt or fault, and does not accept responsibility for things that are clearly "hers".* Again, I really feel her depression is a major component of this, and that is where it needs to start.


I understand you I guess very well. One of my former long time relationships had depression issues. We broke up and a few months later she met someone else. I admit to have anticipated them breaking up too because of her depression issues. It came as I expected, she was depressive. But.. Today they are married and when I met her a few years ago, she was like someone different. She was happy. Truly happy (not that happy to make an ex angry. Truly happy). 
Due to my job I was rather interested in what had made this shift.
She didnt want to hurt me but I insisted wanting to know the reason WE could nt work things out and what the new man did different. _She said, that her new man never tried to work things out with her. He just offered her to go for therapy IF SHE FELT TO and mentioned that he was ready to listen ONCE IN A WHILE when she was down._ She also blamed me for having made her even more depressed the more I wanted her to fix it or when I blamed her for beieng in a bad mood and so on and on..
Today I advice my male clients not to fall into a patriachal role when it comes to issues there wives are going through. The next thing is not to always take it serious and rather once in a while *either take her in your arms, or point out the good positive sides of a matter or to give her room.* It works but needs a lot of self control, especially when your needs arent (yet) beieng met.



> I have always had a wide and varied sexual fantasy imagination, and whatever the reason, I have found that to be a healthy thing for me


Check! Good!

It is healthy to be sexual! 



> She openly admitted in our conversation/argument the other night that sex just wasn't a big deal for her, and so by extension my feelings weren't important to her. I find that hurtful because she has no problems letting me know when I haven't valued her feelings enough. But what really gets me is I'm trying to discuss a real and serious feeling of upset in an adult manner, and she ends up getting mad at me!


*Remember please*:


> *3. No whinning around*. Women love emotional men, but they also love to feel that their man is a man and not an additional son they have to take care of!!! So control following traits:
> a) argueing
> b) opening serious discussions every week
> c) complaining about how unfair you are being treated
> d) feeling hurt the whole time and wanting her to know it


This point is underestimated by men, especially because we look at things rationaly (she is not fair) but rather respond to them emotionally (Anger, Recentfullness etc..). Even if you hide your anger from her, she will figure it out from your behaviour! You have to see things differently in order to let go of the anger! *Dont try to fix things in a way which state you as a victim. It is better to handle things from the angle of personal strength. Your strenght is that you now know following things** (scroll down to the end)!* Yes you are a victim right now, but you arent powerless to change certain small things. Begin looking at you not initiating on regular basis as a way of building sexual tension. So long as you follow the 7 points I stated above (*assertiveness, no-asskissing, no whinning, positive behaviour, seduction, appearance and non-perfection!*) you WILL create sexual tension.. It is a matter of self control, because you wife will play the teasing game much better! *You will turn her on without knowing, she will turn you on in return, but out of the blue she will turn you down! *GET OVER IT! Take this easy! Better today, than tomorrow! Especially when she starts to do things that turn you on and which actually seem intended to turn you on, you know THE GAME HAS BEGAN. PLAY IT. 

You get angry or call her on her playing games -> YOU LOSE! You keep reminding yourself that you are succeeding in building tension between both of you and her playing games IS A NATURAL REACTION of your seduction -> *YOU WIN!*

Self control and patience.

One more thing: Equality is something that does not work out in each corner of a relationship. A few years ago I read alecture about a modell of a swing in order to explain the disbalance:

On the one side of the swing you have *masculinity *on the other *femininity*. As a man you have to be masculin enough to keep the swing on balance on your side and your wife need to be feminin to keep balance on her side! BUT: when you as a man start to convey too many female traits (*need to argue, hurtfullness, wanting to fix things, expecting more love from her than she expects from you*), your wive has to move more to the masculine side of the swing in order for the swing (which is your relationship) to keep balance. She starts to behave more dominant and often gets angry.. One thing which happens to someone who moves to much to the opposite side is he/she gets the feeling of recentfullness (mostly men) or depression (mostly women).
In order for the relationship to run well and not to stagnate or get boring, *both of you will have to swing*. Meaning that you as a man should once in a while lay back and enjoy expressing soft female traits, but you should not freal out when your wife once a while expressen rough male traits.. But most of the time, you will have to stick to masculinity! Get it?
*Short: You take over too many female traits -> She starts lacking those loving female traits you actually desire. *

And yes, beieng sexual is a trait that is there for both men and women. The only time a woman can fully arouse in your presence is when the way is in good balance.

I hope you understood the model.


_**
a) Women love teasing and (sexual)tension
b) Women love men who are sexual, but the love to value sex too -> Do not let the presure climb that high, that she connects sex with something she can always get from you if she wanted, but which is uninteresting to her because of the presure and lack of chalenge for her to seduce you.. Most women arent good seducers because they never needed too, their men always jump on small advances, which makes sex on the long run not that interesting to them.
c) women love an amount of drama -> Do not jump info discussions every time she is acting wierd! Relax!
d) women will provoke you once in a while. Get over it and relax. So long as she aint disrespectful, you better not react on it._


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Sorry for the interruption to my previous post.

The psychological effects of abuse are very deep and in many ways very hidden from the spouse. You can't really know what she is thinking or feeling, and she may not even really understand it herself.

The results are that normal relationship tools don't work, and she has to fix herself.

There are a lot of good resources for you to improve yourself such as Married Man Sex Life, No More Mr. Nice Guy, The Way of the Superior Man, How to Get the Love You Want, etc. These are worth you checking out for your own growth. In addition they offer some relationship tools. Those tools will have limited effect on the abuse/assault survivor because her wiring is messed up.

Some of the methods may in fact trigger her or make things worse. For example one typical tactic is to just take her. Walk her to the bedroom, close the door, take off her clothes and have your way with her. Well take a guess how an abuse/assault survivor might react to that one!

Can you identify any possible triggers for your wife? Perhaps things which she refuses to do or gets weird when you do them? For example my wife is triggered by kissing. Kissing was part of the coercion in her abuse, so she is triggered by kisses. She'll turn her head away or pull back. You might notice your wife withdrawing physically or emotionally sometimes, and that might be a trigger. A particular song, food, location, scent, etc could also be a trigger.

If you are aware of triggers you can avoid them. It won't cure her but it will help her feel more secure. Part of the problem psychologically is she may equate you in some way with her abuser. If he was family, you are also family. If he was an adult male, you are an adult male. She may not even know she is doing it. It may manifest as anger at you or unexplainable outbursts.

You cannot fix her. The best you can do is assist her in seeing that she needs to get professional help for her issues. It seems that many women need to hit a rock bottom before they feel enough need to overcome the fear of facing the trauma.

I think the best way to deal with a wife who has sexual and emotional issues is to set boundaries. You cannot even be sure her problems are related to the abuse, though it is a high likelihood. The abuse survivor is extremely sensitive to being told she is defective, broken, or damaged. So you cannot tell her directly she has problems due to the abuse and needs counseling.

What you can do is communicate your observations, boundaries, and expectations. You observe she has a dislike or aversion to sex. You observe that your marriage is very abnormal, unhealthy, and unsatisfying. You can probably see things you did poorly in the marriage too. Your boundary is that you won't live in a sexless or passionless marriage. You expect both of you individually and as a couple to seek whatever counseling is required to either find the way to a satisfying marriage or to establish that you aren't both going to be happy in this marriage.

She can either step up to the challenge of working productively on the marriage with you or she can decline to participate meaningfully.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thor said:


> Sorry for the interruption to my previous post.
> 
> The psychological effects of abuse are very deep and in many ways very hidden from the spouse. You can't really know what she is thinking or feeling, and she may not even really understand it herself.
> 
> ...


Agree completely with the above. It is important to self-improve and do a "cooling down" or "180"- not so much to build that sexual tension and restore the "chase", but prepare yourself for the pushback you'll get and demonstrate your seriousness about moving on if the marriage remains unsatisfying.

The only thing I would suggest is a measure of compassion in the delivery of your insistence on change. Rather than bluntly state "this does not work for me and we need help", a better alternative might be "I am sorry for this terrible thing that happened to you. But your behavior has the effect of making me pay a price for something in which I had no involvement. Nothing in your past justifies making another person an indirect 'co-victim' of the abuse you suffered. We need to find a constructive way to deal with the fallout before our marriage is further harmed."


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

DTO said:


> The only thing I would suggest is a measure of compassion in the delivery of your insistence on change. Rather than bluntly state "this does not work for me and we need help", a better alternative might be "I am sorry for this terrible thing that happened to you. But your behavior has the effect of making me pay a price for something in which I had no involvement. Nothing in your past justifies making another person an indirect 'co-victim' of the abuse you suffered. We need to find a constructive way to deal with the fallout before our marriage is further harmed."


Yes, but... she has to be willing to entertain the possibility her abuse is a significant factor. I think your approach is good, just don't expect any particular good or bad response to it.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

I think I am primary agreement with this last post from Thor, and the included quote from DTO.

From what I know, she made a suicide attempt around 6th grade, and this seems to be roughly around the time this abuse happened. From what she has said it was only once, involved a male family member in a swimming pool, and was over as quickly as it started. I guess this person held her onto him at the waist but when she didn't respond he let go and she got out of the pool. She will not tell me who it was. She has never told anyone of that or the suicide attempt. (The pool incident was only revealed to me in the last couple of months, the rest I knew about previously.)

She also had an issue with an anonymous caller who would phone the second phone line in her room and say things to her while pleasuring herself. Parents were never able to figure out who it was, and it went on for years. I threatened the guy a couple of times when we dated (also in high school). 

She has also said her high school boyfriend took advantage of her for oral sex, although the story has changed over time to her feeling she was expected to perform oral on him rather then him making her do it. Oral, giving and receiving, is especially troublesome for her and has caused lots of issues.

I have always tried to be gentle and understanding of these issues, but at the same time I have the desires I have. Looking back on the things that have happened I guess she has had quite a bit to deal with. I hope we can get through this.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

jd08 said:


> You mention in your first post things have been "much improved" over the past year. How often do you have sex now vs before? What is your "ideal" frequency?


Sorry for not getting back sooner. The majority of our relationship it was at best 2-4 times a month and at worst 0-1 times a month.

In the last year and a half it has been maybe more like once a week to 1.5 times a week. I would say a realistic goal for me would be 3-4 times a week, including things like mutual stimulation, oral, and full on sex.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Have you praised her for making more of an effort for the past year and a half? She may feel like she is trying really hard to satisfy you by going at your current frequency. And your current displeasure could make her feel inadequate and defensive. The fact that there has been an improvement shows that she does care about you and the marriage. I'll be honest with you too, most of the people on here in "sexless" marriages would be thrilled with once or twice a week. It sounds like to me that her ideal is more like 1-2 times per month and yours is 3-4 times a week. Thus, once a week is actually a good middle ground compromise. 

I'm not trying to minimize your concerns because they are legitimate and I have many of the same issues in my own marriage; I'm also around your age and have a young daughter and my wife struggles with several mental health issues including anxiety, OCD and possibly depression, but in the grand scheme your sex life does not sound that bad. 



wayne81 said:


> Sorry for not getting back sooner. The majority of our relationship it was at best 2-4 times a month and at worst 0-1 times a month.
> 
> In the last year and a half it has been maybe more like once a week to 1.5 times a week. I would say a realistic goal for me would be 3-4 times a week, including things like mutual stimulation, oral, and full on sex.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

A suicide attempt doesn't match the event you described in the pool. I suspect it was far more than she has told you. The guy calling her room in high school also seems odd that he would have her number but nobody knew who it was?

One thing I do know is that the victim experiences the events differently than we might think. Sometimes what seems minor has a very big effect.

Another typical effect is the abused child grows up to be in abusive relationships. The thing with her boyfriend pressuring her to give oral could have been more coercive and dysfunctional than she realizes.

You are a Secondary Survivor of sex abuse. Congratulations, it sucks doesn't it? You might want to do some research on being a Secondary Survivor. There aren't a lot of resources for us. The book "Haunted Marriage" is worth reading. There is a Secondary Survivor subforum over on aftersilence.org. You have to sign up to get access to any forums.

I'm sorry to tell you that from what you have posted about her history I believe she is pretty badly impacted. She will need some good therapy to understand she has some dysfunctions and to try to overcome them. You definitely are not going to be able to fix her yourself, nor can you use the typical "man up" and "alpha" behaviors to elicit normal sexuality from her.

Survivors feel a lot of shame and guilt. They fear it is justified, i.e. they fear they really are dirty or worthless. The thing is they don't differentiate between the abuse event and the long term psychological side effects. If you tell her she is at fault for the abuse she would be devastated, and that is how she interprets when you tell her she has psychological issues as a result of the abuse. She equates the current effects with the abuse itself. So it is probably not a good idea to tell her she has issues as a result of the abuse.

It is better to avoid bringing up the abuse directly. Rather it may be more productive to be more general about the relationship needing work from both of you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Wayne I suspect your wife will be more likely to do her part of an agreement she has investment in.

Find out how often she's willing to have sex per week and what days. Not romantic? so what. Point is you both either can or can not come up with a schedule and there's no pressure and no rejection. No stress about getting shutdown. On occasion it's ok for her not to want to but that has to be rare.

Point is, you've tried spontaneous, you've tried do it when I ask, you've tried "fill in the blank". Do something you haven't tried.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

wayne81 said:


> Previously my immediate response to the divorce question would have been a no, however more and more I find I have to think about it first.
> 
> This is one to the things that came up during our conversation tonight. She understands and says she feels bad for leading me on and then not doing anything, and posed the question of whether she should do something if she doesn't want to. Truly, even though it would feel good, I don't want here to do something if she doesn't want to do it, so what is that happy middle ground?
> 
> ...


What exactly did you do to her, trust wise?

Because most people here are going to comfort you and say she's all in the wrong and maybe she is but I'm famous for being the devil's advocate around here.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

> Wayne I suspect your wife will be more likely to do her part of an agreement she has investment in.


True.



> Find out how often she's willing to have sex per week and what days. Not romantic? so what. Point is you both either can or can not come up with a schedule and there's no pressure and no rejection. No stress about getting shutdown. On occasion it's ok for her not to want to but that has to be rare.


She might tell him what her rythm is, BUT dont forget she might add that her drive isnt high, so sex frequency wont increase! 
The truth is, many women believe they have a low sex drive because their men dont turn them on. So as long they arent in an affair they would never get to believe otherwise -> this will follow the marriage till death do them part.
Therefore talking about the sex issue should not be done, unless there are serious health problems, which is not the case here.



> Point is, you've tried spontaneous, you've tried do it when I ask, you've tried "fill in the blank". Do something you haven't tried.


Thank you. Yeah, he needs to start playing the game.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thor said:


> Yes, but... she has to be willing to entertain the possibility her abuse is a significant factor. I think your approach is good, just don't expect any particular good or bad response to it.


Yeah, I get that. My point is that you might have an uphill battle getting her to go, and appearing blunt and dismissive of her issues might add a defensiveness reflex to the issue.

You don't want her acquiring an attitude of "screw him - who does he think he is?" on top of the other issues to deal with here.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> She might tell him what her rythm is, BUT dont forget she might add that her drive isnt high, so sex frequency wont increase!
> The truth is, many women believe they have a low sex drive because their men dont turn them on. So as long they arent in an affair they would never get to believe otherwise -> this will follow the marriage till death do them part.
> Therefore talking about the sex issue should not be done, unless there are serious health problems, which is not the case here.


My thoughts are it's easier to make a commitment intellectually than to perform an action emotionally without personal investment. She may thing she should have sex twice per week but really doesn't want it that much. Based on that she may agree to every saturday and wednesday or something. Those days roll around and maybe she doesn't feel like it but she has ownership in the committment. And it turns out to be pretty enjoyable and you're happy and she's proud of doing what she thinks she need to be doing. I also think being intimate on a regular basis normally makes people like being intimate on a regular basis.

I don't think it's game. It's more like joint aggreement. But in the end I suppose she needs to read materials that explain the imortance of sex to whomever it's a need. Something like His Needs/Her Needs.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> My thoughts are it's easier to make a commitment intellectually than to perform an action emotionally without personal investment. She may thing she should have sex twice per week but really doesn't want it that much. Based on that she may agree to every saturday and wednesday or something. Those days roll around and maybe she doesn't feel like it but she has ownership in the committment. And it turns out to be pretty enjoyable and you're happy and she's proud of doing what she thinks she need to be doing. I also think being intimate on a regular basis normally makes people like being intimate on a regular basis.
> 
> I don't think it's game. It's more like joint aggreement. But in the end I suppose she needs to read materials that explain the imortance of sex to whomever it's a need. Something like His Needs/Her Needs.


I agree with you in your points, appart from the joint aggreement. This discussing and making aggreements is what brings men in the first place to post here: because they arent getting anywhere. 
Many believe there is something they can say or a magic trick to perform in order for sex to come back up.. The truth will always remain that attraction (this rarely mean looks) has to be present for sexual involvement to be regular.

What I tell my clients is that sex is an important part of a marriage, BUT you wont have it regualry if the marriage itself isnt proper! 
*This doesnt mean that couples need to work out problems and form more aggrements. It means often, especially for the men, to do the opposite! *Women are naturals when it comes to fixing issues that are IN THEIR hands in a relationship. If it is their looks, they often work hard and do the best of what they believe is desireable! The same occures to their behaviour etc..
Men on the other hand are "idiots" when it comes to fixing their part of the train. They tend to behave like nice guys instead of doing a few but difficult things:
a) killing their ass-kisser-side
b) beieng assertive but loving
c) increasing their independence from their wives

This is sure difficult to perform for many men, but many women work much harder with minimal complains just to save the relationship! Problem: (beta)men like to feel sorry for themselves and fear conflict.

Very few women will admit that running behind you and your flaws is just as important to them as you caring and you showing them love in different ways, but it is true.

-----------------------------

In case any of you men might now claim, that your wives arent keeping up to your expectations: My profesor once told me that *the dominant partner in the relationship tends to spend the least amount of energy in order to keep the partners attention.*
= Your husband isnt giving you the attention you like -> its because you are always after him. It doesnt matter if your attention is positive or negative. The same appears to you as a man if your wife isnt giving you the love/attention or treats you would like..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

It's sad the things I've thought were flaws, temper, assertiveness, aggressive personality, that vain on the side of my head that looks scary when I get really angry, the voice. Those things I've worked to keep in check have been part of the balance that has kept my wife and I and our marriage happy. Passive guys who were taught the same think I was are SOL.

I blame fathers for this.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> Problem: (beta)men like to feel sorry for themselves and fear conflict.


I still think dividing men up along the lines of the alpha and the beta, the strong and the weak, the assertive and the docile only describes a subset of the problem. 

There are plenty of men, for example who've served their country with distinction and who do not fear conflict who've made the same exact mistakes in marriage and facilitated bad behavior without realizing it.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I still think dividing men up along the lines of the alpha and the beta, the strong and the weak, the assertive and the docile only describes a subset of the problem.
> 
> There are plenty of men, for example who've served their country with distinction and who do not fear conflict who've made the same exact mistakes in marriage and facilitated bad behavior without realizing it.


I am talking about personal and social traits. A man can be most courageous at war, but a puppy when his wife is in rage. I prefer to use alpha and beta only when it comes to social interactions between men and men or men and women.

The reason many men tend to beta behaviour is because they believe women give sex. So they try to please Mrs. wife as if she were Mrs. Mom in order to be in good terms. Your are a grown up man now and thats the difference between your mom and your wife: Your wife doesnt need you to act like her son, but like a grown up -> A self efficient man.

The men who get regular sex are those who are most of the time beieng persued by their wives for sex.. And thats because their outward behaviour states they dont always need it from her (They dont need to believe this, they just need to act believable).


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> I am talking about personal and social traits. A man can be most courageous at war, but a puppy when his wife is in rage. I prefer to use alpha and beta only when it comes to social interactions between men and men or men and women.
> 
> The reason many men tend to beta behaviour is because they believe women give sex. So they try to please Mrs. wife as if she were Mrs. Mom in order to be in good terms. Your are a grown up man now and thats the difference between your mom and your wife: Your wife doesnt need you to act like her son, but like a grown up -> A self efficient man.


This is sound logic. You made me erase my last post which focused on symptoms rather than cause.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> A man can be most courageous at war, but a puppy when his wife is in rage.
> 
> Your are a grown up man now and thats the difference between your mom and your wife: Your wife doesnt need you to act like her son, but like a grown up -> A self efficient man.


I don't disagree in essence, but that still strikes me as on the ragged edge of derogatory. 

Some men are simply under the delusion that those around them (Including their wives) respond to forthrightness and kindness. 

I imagine it's a bitter pill to realize that's not entirely true. (At least in so far as sexual attraction is concerned.)


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I don't disagree in essence, but that still strikes me as on the ragged edge of derogatory.
> 
> Some men are simply under the delusion that those around them (Including their wives) respond to forthrightness and kindness.
> 
> I imagine it's a bitter pill to realize that's not entirely true. (At least in so far as sexual attraction is concerned.)


It was for me too. It's a balance. Since becoming an adult the things i've learned about attraction have really opened my eyes. I've come to recall past experiences i've had with women and now understand things that confused me before. Part of me has some resentment that being loving and kind will not necessarily arouse that primal sexual urge in some women. And that some people need to know that they can lose you in order for them to put a large amount of effort in the relationship. But this has helped me grow so much. I want to be in a relationship but I have developed so much pride that I just can't handle jumping through hopes and pleading and begging just for a woman to have sex with me. There are two prizes in a relationship. You and your significant other.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> I don't disagree in essence, but that still strikes me as on the ragged edge of derogatory.
> 
> Some men are simply under the delusion that those around them (Including their wives) respond to forthrightness and kindness.
> 
> I imagine it's a bitter pill to realize that's not entirely true. (At least in so far as sexual attraction is concerned.)


It was a bitter pill to swallow but it was enlightening once realized. I was lucky to learn young. Spat out of a bad marriage with a list of "never agains" including trying to reconcile with a cheater, and a little bit of shame. My current wife of almost twenty happy years would have eaten that version of me alive.


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