# feminism gone wrong



## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I don’t know how to keep this short, but I’ll do my best. I’ve posted here before see - ‘husband leaving me over masturbation’ in the sex in marriage topic. My husband and I are in our forties, been together since we were teenagers. Two fabulous teenage kids 19 and 15. We both work, have a couple of cars, a boat, a house (with the dreaded mortgage) a couple of pets blah blah blah. We’re not flush with cash, but we manage. I don’t drink, gamble, have affairs, have a personality disorder, act irresponsible or anything else destructive. I’m far from perfect. I’m hard headed and sarcasm is my second language but I don’t seem like the devil do I? Apparently I am.

My list of offences is long and my feminist attitude about my offences is making everything worse. 
Sometimes I forget to take out the rubbish when I leave in the morning (get a grip, the sky isn’t falling). I use too many lights (who made you the electricity police). I use the clothes dryer sometimes even if it’s sunny (you have a second fridge for beer and a freezer for your fishing bait, don’t talk to me about the dryer). There have been times when I haven’t turned on the dishwasher because it’s not a full load and he had to wash a fork or a cup by hand (ooh the tragedy of it). The floors aren’t cleaned often enough (don’t remember where I agreed that the floors were my job). The groceries I do, don’t count as a job I take care of because I do them online and get them delivered. The bills I pay don’t count as a job I take care of because I pay them online, it’s not like I have to go out to do that. Keeping the books for his business doesn’t count because that’s what I do for a living so it shouldn’t be that difficult. I don’t cook (I give him that one, but he cooks and I clean the kitchen after - I thought that was fair) I cannot claim to have had a ‘hard day’ because I work in an office, in air conditioning and he’s a tradesman – what do I know about hard days. I cannot claim to be stressed because he runs his own business – what do I know about stress. (whatever) I don’t contribute as much financially (I worked full time until we had kids, then I had a seasonal job where I worked four months a year and earned what I would have in eight months. And I raised 2 kids. And now I went back full time a year ago. So there knucklehead.) The sex has all but dried up, petered out and now nothing for weeks and I’m sure that’s my fault as well. And the list goes on and on and on and everything he claims I have a counter claim. 

The point is – he takes a chunk out of me, I take a chunk out of him. I say everything that’s listed in brackets, I’m not cowering in the corner afraid to take him on. I’m not less, because I’m the wife and he’s the husband. The fact that I have ovaries doesn’t make the floors my job, or cleaning the toilet, or anything else. We both work. We’re at work for the same number of hours every week (just different time frames). I do the groceries, pay the bills, do his bookwork, clean the kitchen, wash the clothes and a stack of other things. He cooks, mows the yard, does the home repairs. Everything else is up for grabs buddy. The floors are annoying you – go wash them. Everything is dusty – go dust. 

I know this makes me sound like the biggest troll, but seriously?? We went to a therapist about nine months ago (the details of that uprising are listed in my previous thread in sex in marriage). The therapist told him he was behaving very ‘parental’ towards me with his ‘I know the right way to do things and what she should be doing’ attitude and I was behaving like the bratty teenager with my ‘bite me’ attitude. I agree totally. 

But what do I do? For the most part I’ve checked out over the last year. In general I try not to inflame situations, or to say things that may be used against me. I’ve gone into protection mode. I’ve even been secretly paying my half of everything and keeping our money separately (I do all the finances so it wasn’t hard) and he currently owes me $1000 for the bills he couldn’t afford his half of. Funny that his claim is that I don’t contribute as much financially. I’ve had my friends swear their allegiance to ‘my side’ if it comes to that and mentally have tried to make preparations for what I will and won’t agree to and what legal rights I have should it come to a divorce. 

Work is my sanctuary. Home is my – I don’t know. It’s his home, I just work there. I don’t know what I did wrong. I thought I did a good job. The kids are great. Everybody’s made it out fine on my watch. I don’t want a thank you. I want to be happy. I want to be free. Why does it matter how I wash the clothes or the dishes or how many lights I use or if I forget toothpaste in the groceries? People have much bigger problems than bloody toothpaste. What makes me so much less than him? What the hell am I supposed to do with a husband who I’ve spent a lifetime with who doesn’t even like me now that all the hard work is done? 

Or is it all me? Am I supposed to do all the ‘womanly’ things. Am I supposed to put more effort into the domestic goddess thing because that’s what wives do. Am I supposed to be headstrong and only do my half or am I supposed to be selfless and do more than my share to make life easier for everyone around me. Selfish or selfless? I don’t know anymore. Do people leave their marriages over this kind of stuff? I’m fairly certain my husband is on the verge of threatening to leave me, again (Although last time he said he was leaving me but could I be the one to actually leave the house. I thought that was pretty rude. I’m leaving but could you please be the one to pack your stuff and exit the building. WTF?? My response to that was too abusive to write here) Or do they go all out and do everything they can to be the other persons ‘perfect’ even if it goes against what they feel is fair and right. Does it get better if you change your state of mind and give in and then the stress goes out the door and then do they re-think their behaviour?? Am I just playing the victim and feeling sorry for myself? Am I being obnoxious, childish, a right fighter, self-righteous, by demanding what I deem to be fair and equal treatment? I shouldn't make his rules anymore than he can make mine.

I’m really sorry this is so long. I’ve tried to be honest even though it might be ‘unflattering’ to me. Thanks to anyone that’s taken the time to read.


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

You marriage is dead. No attraction, no excitement, no desire, no sex, no pleasure, no kindness, no support.

This will never get better or improve - you married too young and you are tired of each other.

This happens......a lot.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

He sounds like he has control issues. He doesn’t view you as an equal partner. Married too young and are tired of each other doesn’t fit, you have had 24 years to figure that out. 

You two have created a combative marriage, its become the way of life for you apparently. Do people have much bigger problems that leaving lights on. Yes My stbx was part of the electricity police too so I can appreciate that speech I heard it more than once. 

Has he always been this way or has it gotten progressively worse over time? You state he is self employed, is his business doing well or is it having problems also? Does he do this with the children also? You guys tried MC last year, did you continue that long term or did that stop. Im not even going to touch the last topic and his control, wow. 

He truly may just not want an equal partner but the old fashioned stay at home, never question anything wife and you want to be an equal partner and he doesn’t apparently want to share the power and all the little things you are fighting about don’t mean anything, its just his excuse to enforce the power struggle.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Counterfit said:


> You marriage is dead. No attraction, no excitement, no desire, no sex, no pleasure, no kindness, no support.
> 
> This will never get better or improve - you married too young and you are tired of each other.
> 
> This happens......a lot.


Maybe you're right. Still kinda sad to flush away a lifetime with someone, relationship dead or not.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

honcho said:


> Has he always been this way or has it gotten progressively worse over time? You state he is self employed, is his business doing well or is it having problems also? Does he do this with the children also? You guys tried MC last year, did you continue that long term or did that stop. Im not even going to touch the last topic and his control, wow.


It's definately got worse over time. He hung onto his younger years as long as he could which left me with the bulk of the responsibility for a long time. Now that he's older and his younger years are behind him he seems to think he can walk in and become the 'husband of authority'. That doesn't fly with me. The kids are not really targets, it's all about me. 
The MC stopped after 4 sessions I think. I told him he needed to go by himself for awhile. He didn't. 

What the hell is going on? Why is this going on? I'm not a child or challenged in any way that I would need him to control me. Sigh. I seriously don't even know whether I care anymore.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

In your first post it looks as if you typed in a word processing program that did not retain the paragraphs. Go back in an add them. It will make your thread easier for people to read. You'll get more responses.

You say your sex life is dead. Can you rekindle it?


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> In your first post it looks as if you typed in a word processing program that did not retain the paragraphs. Go back in an add them. It will make your thread easier for people to read. You'll get more responses.
> 
> You say your sex life is dead. Can you rekindle it?


Thanks. Hopefully that's easier to read. 

Can my sex life be rekindled? Probably, but it's hard to feel attracted to someone who 'parents' me.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

is your post for or aginst feminism?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Juno, the dynamic between you and your husband reminds me of the one I had with my ex hb, and your responses remind me of myself. The nitpicking you describe is the result of someone that just doesn't like you. You get on his nerves and don't really fit how he thinks a woman should behave. My ex once told me that I had all of the privileges of a man with none of the responsibility. Wtf does that even mean? We had two little kids which he didn't lift a finger for (because that's womans work-but did I mention I cut the grass too?), I worked part time and used that money to pay bills and buy us IRA's, and he would come home from work and drink beer with the neighbors the rest of the evening. I also couldn't complain because I had such an easy life, made easier by the fact that I didn't cook right, didn't clean right, or do much of anything right. I asked him once to name one thing I did right and his response was that he was trying to fix that. I remember the moment I decided I was done with him; we'd been married 7 years, I was putting a job into the computer (I did secret shopper work) and he came home and proceeded to scream at me because I'd done the dishes and left the sponge in the water.

The thing was, it wasn't really about the sponge, or anything else. He just didn't like me, and thought I was a loud mouth Jew b!tch that didn't know my place as a woman. Ironically, when I filed for divorce he was beside himself, which I'll never understand since he clearly couldn't stand me. His loss because I make more money than him now and he could've benefited from that if he wasn't such a miserable pr!ck.

If you've tried counseling just get your ducks in a route a row and end this. Don't waste anymore of your life becA
ause you're afraid to let go; the time you've already put in is a sunk cost, and it's very difficult to come back from where you guys are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> is your post for or aginst feminism?


I'm for feminism, but it's not serving me well. 

When a man and a woman are contributing 50/50 I don't see why I should have to wash floors, clean toilets etc etc and mostly I refuse to be chastised like a child when I don't do something the 'right' way. I don't want my efforts to critiqued like I need guidance and I don't want the subtle disapproving looks because he always knows best and I'm just the wife.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Juno, the dynamic between you and your husband reminds me of the one I had with my ex hb, and your responses remind me of myself. The nitpicking you describe is the result of someone that just doesn't like you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nice to know it's not only me, and yes he doesn't like me and I feel that every day. He says that's not true, but.. yeah. 

In therapy I rounded off many of his good qualities and the only thing he could say about me was that I'm a good mother. I thought that was crappy, because he couldn't come up with something 'he' liked about me, just something to do with the kids. 

I asked him last night if he was going to re-think how things are and stop with the nit picking. He sighed and said he just wasn't going to say anything anymore. My take on that is - I still think you're crap, but since you chuck a hissy fit at my criticism I'm going to suffer in silence, poor me. Which is complete rubbish because he's said that before, he doesn't say anything but he gives me the sideways glances and the heavy footsteps and the sighing and then eventually over time it builds up again until he can't hold back and has to tell me how ineffective I am in many ways. Then I take a chunk out of him again and we end up right back here again.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

You both work. Hire some of it out. Get a housekeeper. Hire out lawncare.

I have a policy. If H criticizes or complains @ something I do for him, I don't do it anymore. Use to wash, dry, fold his laundry, and put it away in his drawers. He complained that the socks were not organized by color code. So I stopped putting it in the drawer and put it on top of his dresser. Then he complained that it was not done when he needed it. So I stopped doing it altogether and asked the 10yos to teach his father how to use the machines 

Don't give up the feminism. I was a SAHM/domestic servant for @25 years. It is a thankless job. H was worse then/ much worse. And the children respect me so much more as a working professional now than they ever did as a SAHM.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

You say he doesn't like you. This may be projection. He doesn't like himself. This would manifest no matter who he was married to. 

If you really want the M to have a chance you gotta stop taking his crapola personally and get the sex back on track. Read some of the threads in the "Sex in M" forum. To men, without it, the M is over.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

UPDATE: Had a day off, went to lunch with my brother, got home and he was home. I got the 'I'm not happy. I'm leaving.' speech. WTF???? Okay, I know we're in a kinda rocky patch but WTF??? 

So, he's told the kids tonight. 19 year old son - not happy with Dad. 15 year old daughter - just upset with the whole situation. He's moving to his sister's place tomorrow while I'm at work. 

25 years and that's it. OVER. Who does this?? I'm now officially in the twilight zone. I feel like I've put in everything I had through all the hard years and now that the hard work is done and the kids are pretty much raised I'm thrown away. I feel used and disposable. I have no dignity or self esteem. I am a pathetic 43 year old past her use by date. 

The last thing I said to him was - you're a treacherous bastard. I will never forgive you. You are worth nothing to me. 

Okay, I know, that's pretty harsh. But in my defense I've been a loyal and loving wife for 25 years. Did you think I was going to take that well? 

He wants to be friends. He says he's doing the right thing for both of us and ending it before we hate each other. Well I'm so glad he's looking out for my best interests. He acts like he's doing me a favour and I should be grateful. 

Where the hell do I go from here????? How do I start over, after 25 years? How do I unravel 25 years of emotion and finances and being a couple??


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks in advance for any advice. I am drowning right now in confusion and hurt. I never imagined I would be in this position.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You have nowhere to go but up. Your marriage was miserable but you were stuck in the devil you know mentality; let him go and enjoy the peace and quiet. There's nothing worse than being married to someone that can't stand you. In time you may come to realize that he did you a favor by leaving because it's clear you were never going to pull the plug.

And gf, please stop the I'm 43 and washed up victim mentality. I'm 40 and if I was single I know several possibilities.....just make sure you're taking care of yourself physically.

Now go get a haircut and facial, then do something really nice for yourself.

This too shall pass; your best years are still to come.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

You don't respect him and in order to try to get that respect out of you he tries to control you. You're both wrong and just hurting yourselves by hurting one another. 

Secondly, you need to stop seeing a relationship as a quantifiable list of chores. I mean, really? Whose piece of cake is bigger will get you no cake at all.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> And gf, please stop the I'm 43 and washed up victim mentality. I'm 40 and if I was single I know several possibilities.


Sorry, but life post-divorce is a lot harder than married women expect it to be. It ain't all _Eat, Pray, Love_.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> And gf, please stop the I'm 43 and washed up victim mentality. I'm 40 and if I was single I know several possibilities.....just make sure you're taking care of yourself physically.
> 
> Now go get a haircut and facial, then do something really nice for yourself.
> 
> ...


I don't generally have the victim mentality. I was having a moment of self pity. And right now my kids are my priority, just because they're not small doesn't mean they don't need their Mum to hold her s**t together. I may be temporarily down but I am definately not out. Kids first. Haircut and facial later. 

It can't rain everyday. The sun does come out.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

MSP said:


> You don't respect him and in order to try to get that respect out of you he tries to control you. You're both wrong and just hurting yourselves by hurting one another.
> 
> Secondly, you need to stop seeing a relationship as a quantifiable list of chores. I mean, really? Whose piece of cake is bigger will get you no cake at all.


Maybe my attitude got us no cake at all, maybe we are both wrong. But I don't believe bickering over chores should end a relationship as long as ours.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

MSP said:


> Sorry, but life post-divorce is a lot harder than married women expect it to be. It ain't all _Eat, Pray, Love_.


Eh, depends on many things. Have you been a divorced woman? I was a divorced single mom at one time and it wasn't that big of a deal. People think it's a lot bigger deal than it is. A lot of it depends on whether you can support yourself financially and Juno works. I remarried a lovely man, and Juno.will too if that's what she wants and she's got her sh!t together.

I haven't seen Eat, Pray, Love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> I don't generally have the victim mentality. I was having a moment of self pity. And right now my kids are my priority, just because they're not small doesn't mean they don't need their Mum to hold her s**t together. I may be temporarily down but I am definately not out. Kids first. Haircut and facial later.
> 
> It can't rain everyday. The sun does come out.


Good to hear. Your kids do need you but you still have to prioritize yourself at least to the extent your healthy and well. At least do something nice for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Well, I cant really say whose right or wrong here because i do not think neither of you are. I do agree tho with the PP when they said you have no respect for him ( Shows in your post), He feels it, so his way maybe to try and get control anyway he can.

Yes, I do agree that 25 years is a long time to just throw the whole lot down the pan, but obviously you have a lot of issues in your relationship, and your husband feels he cant take no more and its the end of the line.... Obviously he does not think that 25 years is a long time, as hes just walked out on it without trying to make it better.

You act like your life is one big chore, who should be doing this, who should be doing this, If rubbish needs taking out, then take it out.... Either of you, If there is washing up in the sink, then wash it up........ If the floor needs mopping and its dirty, then clean it either of you...... Why fuss whose job it is???.

He wants it done this way, your not doing it, so hes resenting you for it, you get angry, and then your both miserable. 

If its sunny and he wants you to put it on the line, then put it out, Its not worth fighting over, Lets be adults about it all.

Surely your marriage is not based on how much housework you both do???.

You both need to concentrate on important things, chores etc are not.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

melw74 said:


> If its sunny and he wants you to put it on the line, then put it out, Its not worth fighting over, Lets be adults about it all.


^^not "adult". Sounds like slavery to me. BTDT.

Adult= if YOU want it on the line then you put it on the line. 
If he wants it on the line then he doesn't boss you around to get it done. He goes and hangs it on the line himself.

That part could have been fixed and isn't what killed the M. The sexlessness is what killed it.

So sorry juno42! Do the 180


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

Juno:

I had similarities between your post and my marriage and I can tell you that even if you were doing everything....it wouldn't matter....he'd complain.

I did it all. Worked full-time, took care of the home, the kids, cooked...and he never stopped telling me that I wasn't up to his standards.

I am not a pansy either...never have been. My problem was that I refused to believe for a very long time that I couldn't make it work. I believed that I could make anything work.

After over 20 years...I finally realized that it was a simple issue of compatibility. There was a reason that I came to dislike everything about him. I hated his smell, the way he ate, the way he formed sentences. When he'd come into the door after work, I would immediately tense up.

When you are with the wrong person...this is what happens. You are incompatible. You bring out the worst in each other. You set up defensive tactics to deal with the onslaught of each other. And over time, everything falls apart.



> Sorry, but life post-divorce is a lot harder than married women expect it to be. It ain't all Eat, Pray, Love.


I totally disagree in my case. Divorce itself was tough because my ex fought everything and anything but my after divorce life is far beyond amazing. Its the best gift I've ever given myself in my life.

Life is peaceful...its optimistic...I have plans and goals now that I can actually achieve and for the first time in my life, I'm truly in love. There's nothing better than coming home after work to my own clean home that I own without having to listen to someone complaining. There's nothing better than being in control of my own money. There's nothing better than having a partner who truly loves me at my worst rather than trying to tear me down at my best.

Life with the wrong person is pure misery, in my opinion. I'd rather be alone.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly with everything in the above post and could have written it myself

The peace and freedom I feel is better than anything I've ever felt


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

X2. I think most doom and gloom divorce stories are meant to maintain the status quo. Since my divorce I'm happier, far better off financially and generally much more successful in every aspect of my life than I ever was with the ex.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. A lot to think about. 

My reality right now is that it's day 4 and he's gone. He left the day after he told me he was leaving. I have a 19 year old son who is bottling up most of it but doing anything he can to make houselife easier (taking out rubbish, cleaning up etc) and a 15 year old daughter who does nothing but cry and say mean things to me (I know she's doing it because I'm the one who's here to take it out on).
He did call me today and was very upset at how much he was missing the kids (who he has come to see every day and is calling). He asked me if I would think about letting him come home and he would stay downstairs. I told him I would think about it because I know he's upset but I don't think him coming home would be a smart idea. The downstairs is not a separate living area and we would have to share a kitchen and bathroom and I just think that it wouldn't be best for anyone in the long run. I explained this to him and said I don't see any way I could say yes to that. 

I was trying to say no, but in a way that would keep the peace and not cause unnecessary tension which will affect the kids. So, he's gone and I'm just trying to deal with each day. 

I guess I should be posting in the 'going through divorce' section. And so it begins.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hi Juno,

I remember your thread in SIM. Frankly, your husband is either having an affair or he is just plain NUTS! The level of control and nit picking he put your through is mind boggling!

I'm sorry you are going through such soul searching and I'm even sorrier that some of the responses here might be making you feel like you've done something to cause this. You haven't.

You mentioned you feel like you've been used up, tossed after your sell by date. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

I am married, but at 51 I know I could not only find peace on my own but I could also find a great deal of happiness. I am not used up, I've got a lot more life and vitality in me. Interestingly enough, when if was contemplating divorce back in the fall the only dire warnings I got were from men. 

Your STBXH is an ASS! He is the one who will find himself unable to get on. His sister will tire of his nonsense and toss his ass out. Once out, he will not be able to find another woman who will enjoy his level of control and also feel respected. And that is the big difference.

It's one thing to have a chore list divvied up by gender role, but without respect for what each spouse brings to the harmonious running of the home it doesn't matter who does what, it will never feel equal in accomplishment or effort.

Give yourself time to grieve and be pissed off. But start making lists of things you've always wanted to do, learn, try, places to go, interest groups to be involved with and soon enough you will smack yourself in the head for not having pulled the trigger on ending your marriage much earlier.

And buy yourself all the toys you've wanted to try but were afraid to buy because your ass of a husband wanted to control your sexuality as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

juno 42 said:


> I'm for feminism, but it's not serving me well.
> 
> When a man and a woman are contributing 50/50 I don't see why I should have to wash floors, clean toilets etc etc and mostly I refuse to be chastised like a child when I don't do something the 'right' way. I don't want my efforts to critiqued like I need guidance and I don't want the subtle disapproving looks because he always knows best and I'm just the wife.


Feminism is not hurting you either... it's not a player in your marriage.

Most couples come to their own solution as to who does what. You two have done this. That's not the problem.

The problem is that your husband has grown into a man who is not happy with himself. Thus he feels a need to control you and everything you do. You could do 100% of everything perfectly but you would be wrong. 

My son's father was like this. He complained about everything I did. It was never right. It was never enough. .. even though I was the sole provider while he was in medical school. I paid his way through school. I took care of our son, cleaned our house, ran a business and earned a 6 figure income in the 1980's. It was not good enough for him.

Things got a bit better when I realized that he had the problem not me. That was when I started to just look at him when he'd go on about how wrong and insignificant I was.... my reply to him was "Wow, you had a bad day. Maybe you need to go take a break."

Stop internalizing his picking on you. Put it back on him. Let him know that he is behaving like that because he's not happy with his day, his life and/or himself.

Has changing your behavior worked in the past?

ETA: Well I guess I should have read your last few posts first. I'm late to the party here.

If there is any hope for your marriage, your doing the 180 right now might be it. He needs to miss you and your life together. Maybe then he would be willing to look at himself and work on things. Otherwise letting him go is probably your best bet.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Blonde said:


> ^^not "adult". Sounds like slavery to me. BTDT.
> 
> Adult= if YOU want it on the line then you put it on the line.
> If he wants it on the line then he doesn't boss you around to get it done. He goes and hangs it on the line himself.
> ...


Slavery, Asking her to put a bit of washing on the line..... I would not go that far.

I just do not think its worth arguing about... Why argue over something so trivial as the washing.... That all i am saying.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Hi Juno,
> 
> I remember your thread in SIM. Frankly, your husband is either having an affair or he is just plain NUTS! The level of control and nit picking he put your through is mind boggling!
> 
> ...


Thanks Anon Pink for remembering my thread in SIM. I do think I'm to blame for some of this. I'm not faultless in this situation. I'm just overwhelmed by the enormity of everything that is lost. The scales just don't balance. It feels like we've spent decades renovating our dream house just to light a match and burn it down. It doesn't make sense to me. 

I know I'm going to get through. I have a lot of good times ahead. And bad as well. It's sobering to realize I've been with a man who truly doesn't like me. He doesn't hate me, but he doesn't like me. 

Thanks for your kind words.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Feminism is not hurting you either... it's not a player in your marriage.
> 
> Most couples come to their own solution as to who does what. You two have done this. That's not the problem.
> 
> ...


I think his unhappiness is more to do with himself than with me. I truly believe that. But it doesn't really make it hurt any less. I looked into the 180 and found out I've been doing it without even knowing it LOL.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I know I should be posting in 'Going through Divorce/Separation' but I'm just not ready to do that yet. I'm convinced that this is for real. Everything I know about him and his behaviour tells me this is going ahead. 

He's started using the kids as pawns. The teen daughter is being distant to me and the teen son is being distant to him. Daughter talks and texts him constantly and is always upset/crying after contact with him and she tells me nothing - and I'm not asking. Son has distanced himself from STBX (first time I've used that term. Sigh) but does tell me things he's said without me asking. 

I had a friend over the other night and he's told both of them he knows I've had people over there bad mouthing him. NOT TRUE. I had a friend for support. Nothing was said in front of the kids. He goes wherever he wants and sees whoever he wants and I know nothing, but my actions are twisted and misconstrued. I said nothing to him about it. 

He text the same friend with a message that said 'Don't believe everything Juno says. There's 2 sides to every story.' I said nothing to him about that. 

He's been in the house the last two days while no one is home and I told him he could be there, but I know he's been looking around, checking things out. I said nothing. 

He keeps asking daughter every afternoon what I'm doing for dinner (since he did all the cooking) and then she reports back to him. I said nothing. 

He's been making plans to move his boat to his friends house without telling me. I said nothing. 

He's never been so cold. He speaks to me, when he's had to on the phone as if nothing's going on most of the time and then he manipulates the kids. We've never manipulated the kids before. We both have a great relationship with the kids. I don't know who this person is. 

What I do now will affect my kids. They may be teenagers, but they're still my kids. I refuse to be drawn into an argument. I refuse to degrade myself to petty behaviour. If I have to take a few hits to keep the peace until it's all said and done, I will. One day, things will calm down. One day, my life will be none of his business. One day, he won't have access to my house anymore. One day, I want to look myself in the mirror and not regret anything I said or I did even if he was being an A$$. I can't stop him from being an A$$ but I can stop myself from being one.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> It's sobering to realize I've been with a man who truly doesn't like me. He doesn't hate me, but he doesn't like me.


He doesn't like *himself* and he projects it onto you. "Wherever you go, there you are". He's not solving his problems this way but he's going to have to reach his own bottom. 

Eventually you will be able to come out of enmeshment and realize that YOU were not the problem. We are all human and have human lapses. Give yourself permission to be human.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

And I have to say how completely devastating it is to have been really great parents. To have both had great relationships with the kids. To have always checked with the other one with parenting decisions. To now have one parent manipulate the kids, and give all indications that he wants to parent them without consultation with me is completely disgusting and so very very sad.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

You are taking the high road, juno42.

Work on a few sentences to use with the kids to diffuse animosity... "can't control how your father handles this but as far as I am concerned" 

eg talk about both still being their parents and you will not badmouth their dad to them, triangulate them into adult couple issues, or expect them to take sides. The M problems are NOT their fault, and you will always *both* be their parents.

You need support from other people however, people with whom you can vent and that is none of your H's business. I would stand up for myself with anyone who questions that. "Thank God I have supportive friends for times like this!"


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

It's abusive to children to expect them to be "counselors" for M/D problems

Emotional Incest, Part 1: Definitions

Can you get your children some counseling? I think they better hear from a counselor how destructive this is.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Juno, maybe I'm being alarmist but you husband sounds like he is on the path of parental alienation. He certainly is not above bad mouthing you to the kids.

There is a thread in Parent and Family by Enjoli Woman about Parental Alienation; I really think you should read it.

What is happening to your kids is the same thing my ex SIL did to her sons against my brother. It's so unbelievably devious and underhanded you can't believe their doing it. You chide yourself for thinking the worst, you tell yourself to take the high road....and all the while they are methodically and with intent manipulating your kids and brain washing them!

Please please read that thread, get yourself prepared, get with a therapist who can help you wade through this. I'm gonna post again with a link to her thread.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family-parenting-forums/55254-parental-alienation-my-story.html


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Anon Pink and Blonde - Thanks for the heads up. I read the links and I guess I just have to keep an eye out for anything I should be concerned about. I've been saying the right things to the kids, I think. I haven't said anything bad about him, told them I'm concerned about him, told them that I have every intention of not causing problems where there doesn't need to be and creating a home for them that's not going to turn into a war zone. I told them I want them to have a close relationship with their father and not to feel like they have to watch what they say in the presence of either one of us. 

Update for today - It's my first rostered day off since he left. I had the house valuer come this morning (he doesn't know but my finance guy has already started the ball in motion to get me my house) Cleaned out the fridge downstairs - it's his fridge and I want to turn it off to save electricity. It had nothing but old food and alcohol in it. 

Was hoping to get my daughter to myself today. She has to work tonight but I was hoping she would come home from school, spend time with me and then I'll take her to work. I wanted to see if she'd be more herself without her father seeing her this afternoon and upsetting her (he's been seeing her in the afternoons, before me and my son get home from work). But, he's just called and said he would be dropping son's car off (he had it repaired yesterday, without being asked to - sound like manipulation? Here son, see what I did, I came and got your car fixed, aren't I a good dad?) and, since it's nearly time for school to be out he's going to time it, so he drops off the car when she gets home so he can see her. Gee thanks, I've had a week of her being emotional and taking things out on me, I could've used a break. 

Oh well, guess I'll have to wait till next day off. I'm sure his over-parenting won't last forever.

Sorry, did that sound mean? I didn't mean it to, I'm just disappointed that he couldn't let me have one day with her without his interference. And it's not like I could ask him not to see her this afternoon without me looking like a bitter woman who's out to demonize him.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Well husband came. We spoke. Who is this person???? He wasn't cold, or horrible, he's just 'fine' with it all. I know he misses the kids, but in regards to ending our relationship, separating finances, dividing things up, moving on - he's fine. No regrets, no emotion. What could I have done to make this person - feel nothing. What did I do???

I told him to watch what he says to the kids. Neither of us should use them as emotional pawns - he agreed. 
I told him daughter will be living with me, because she needs a 'home base' and he can see her whenever he wants and she can stay with him as long as she checks with both of us first, no using one of us against the other - he agreed. 
I told him what I say to my friends and family is none of his business and what he says to his friends and family is none of my business - he agreed. 
I told him I would offer him what I could afford, to buy his half of the house. He's adamant he doesn't want solicitors. I told him I would make him a reasonable offer and he should take a week to think about it. I told him if he doesn't accept my offer I will go straight to a solicitor and we can waste what money we do have. 

So, that's it. As surreal as it is, as unbelievable and heart wrenching as it is, it's over. Last Wednesday I had a husband of 25 years. This Wednesday, I don't.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm sorry you're feeling such pain Juno. Feeling so rejected and marginalized, thrown away. 

But this has been coming on for a while, you just didn't see it. His grip on reality and reason has been slipping for some time. From your very first thread it seemed obvious to most people that your H was waaaaay out of line in his control of you and his expectations to control you. The way he could have taken such a personal and simple thing and threatened divorce over it... It's just plain crazy!

I hope he does stick to the things he agreed to, but I personally doubt it. He sabotaged your alone time with your daughter. Next time don't allow it. If he makes some excuse for coming to the house when you want to spend alone time, go pick her up from school and take her out for ice cream or something.

In fact, you might want to try what I do with my kids. Once each term they get a mental health day, providing their grades are up to snuff. I don't tell them ahead of time. I got to school and sign them out just before lunch. We go shopping or to a movie, sometimes out to dinner too! They love their mental health days.

I suggest you tell you kids the behavior you promise to live up to, and also that their father promised to live up to. Tell them it will be very hard but the goal is to NOT bad mouth one another to the kids and if they feel either parent is bad mouthing the other, they need to speak up to that parent. Give your kids to tools they may need to stop bad mouthing before it happens.

Mom I know you're upset but please don't bad mouth dad.
Dad I know you're upset but please don't bad mouth mom.

Also, give them examples of subtle sabotages your H might try but reverse it first.

"For instance, I might complain about something not being fixed right then say something like 'he never fixes things like he says he will!' It your dad might complain about me being available to you or not understanding you. If you hear these kind of comments from us you need to speak up and remind us. We don't want to drag you guys into this."

This lets her know to be on the look out for alienation type comments and recognize them for what they are AND gives her tools and permission to speak up.

Don't wait till he starts bad mouthing you to the kids. I guarantee he will!


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

You are grieving your M. I tried to find an article but my internet is glitching. Google and read about grieving the end of a marriage. There are stages of grief. It's a process. Allow yourself to grieve, juno.


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## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

I would also recommend asking your H to go to counselling WITH you , so that you guys can become the parents you want to be for your children and to provide them what they need through this transition. I am no expert, and I'm not divorced or separated (yet).. but have spent the last year working it out… going to MC etc… and what it has done is allowed me to grieve the end of the marriage, and also to learn to communicate and regain respect for him which will make us better parents to our kids when we do separate. I have to tell you it has taken me a full year to stop being so angry with him. We still live together, and I haven't yet told him (again now for the 3rd time ) that I want to separate… it's been a rough year but I feel like I will trust him more as a parent to the kids when I'm not around now.


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## Nikita2270 (Mar 22, 2014)

The transition with the kids after divorce is tough. The best advice I could give you is to take the high road even if your ex doesn't. The kids will remember that you did in due time.

It can just be a really tough transition. My ex used to keep a diary on everything that I did with and without the kids during the initial part of my separation, I think because he thought he would help him with regard to custody. He was a control freak. To say he exaggerated the truth would be quite the understatement. I ignored it and simply did what I always do. He badmouthed me many times in front of our kids and they would mention it, I ignored that too. I never stooped to his level. I would just tell them that we'd work it out and that their dad was upset and I'm sorry that they had to hear things that were between the two of us.

Prior to us settling on a custody arrangement, I made out a calendar so we could both spend an equal amount of time with the kids...I had him agree to it and followed it strictly. Then I cut off all contact with my ex except parenting-specific-only email. Anything else I would simply file and not bother to answer. It took about a year and a half but eventually things settled down and he stopped bothering to send me ranting/raving email. I got a couple legal letters about my needing to cease and desist in bringing strange men around my kids...I just ignored those too and they stopped.

You just have to work on your own behaviors. You have to learn not to react. Its hard at first but eventually it becomes a habit.

Mostly concentrate on what you want in your new life. What things do you want? Then make a plan to achieve them. I know you can't imagine it now but divorce can be so liberating when you've been with someone who was sucking the energy out of you. You seem like the type of person who might go through a bad time but is usually an optimist. I think you'll find a way to choose happiness after you get through the initial shock and adjustment of separation. I'm sorry that its so tough....just know that it really does get better with time.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the advice. I need it, and I'm soaking it in and I appreciate your kindness and your support. 

Wow! What a week. I've had a week of lows, but my usual 'glass half full' attitude has mostly remained intact. Don't get me wrong, I'm bitter and angry and sad and depressed, BUT it's impossible to feel that my life is a miserable tragic mess when I have so many good things. 

The people I work with have rallied around me, someone even made me a desert to take home to the kids LOL. I thought I was liked at work, but I had no idea these people would react the way they have. My mother and brother are so supportive. I have 3 close friends that have pledged their allegiance to me LOL. It may only be 3 but if they're good friends it feels like 300. Financially I have many options. I have a great job. See? It's not all bad. I may get sad and cry in the next hour, and if I do it won't last, and then again maybe I won't cry at all today. 

I fired my financial guy. I found out STBXH has also called him and he was planning on helping us both. I didn't like that, so I told him the situation made me uncomfortable and I was going to make other arrangements. I work in finance, but not in the loans section, so I went to work and had a meeting with the head financial guy at work and he said - 'I was waiting for you to call me. What took you so long?' So, I have a new, kicka$$ financial guru, and he's given me the name of a kicka$$ lawyer my firm uses, and told me to tell them where I work because we use them all the time. It looks like financially, although I'll have to tighten my belt, I 'should' be able to keep my house as long as STBXH agrees to a reasonable settlement. If not, kicka$$ lawyer can sort him out. Financially, for him, he's up the creek without a paddle. His business is barely viable and he looks terrible on paper, so if he's smart he'll take the reasonable offer I make him and get the hell out of dodge. 

Daughter is still being obnoxious, but I'm just about done with that. I wouldn't let her behave like this under any normal circumstances, and although I've been tiptoeing around her, it doesn't seem to be doing any good. I think it's time 'old' mum made a comeback. I know some of you may not agree, but my daughter is taking the whole thing out on me, and I know it's because I'm the one that's here, and I still intend to be supportive, but enough is enough. 

Juno is officially, gradually, tentatively, with a heart of sorrow but also some optimism making a comeback.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

I reserve the right to alter between optimism and misery at the drop of a hat for awhile longer.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

juno 42 said:


> I reserve the right to alter between optimism and misery at the drop of a hat for awhile longer.


Of course you do, as long as you're making good decisions to protect yourself and your kids, which clearly you are. There will be lots of light at the end of this tunnel, and eventually a new guy will wonder what the h&ll your ex was thinking to let you go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Well done for taking control of your future.

Daughters tend to take every bad mood out on their mother. I have 3 and they never snapped at their father the way they snap at me. Which is kind of odd because I rarely let them get away with being disrespectful to any of us while my husband doesn't even hear sarcasm or snark. 

Your daughter is also more assured of your continued love and support of her so it is safer to take her anger out on you than your husband. I guess it would be best to prepare for her to be copping attitudes with you for a while longer.

I really think your life will be so much better and happier once you are well rid of your H.


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## wanttofix (Jun 4, 2013)

Feminism? More like normal person-ism? I am male and I have the exact problem! Though I haven't been married as long. I do all the cleaning and get *****ed at for leaving dishes in the sink because she has to do them. If I forget one thing, it's the end. It's argument time about how lazy I am. I work two jobs, clean the house, and give you time to sleep? 

I got 1.5 hours of sleep today while taking a nap with my son! I won't jack your thread, but thank you for posting this.


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## pakmenu (May 24, 2014)

Recognize the complaining. In my marriage it's me who does it. I know I'm wrong. But I think I do it because I'm hurt for many reasons by my wife. I so much agree with a book called 'the act of marriage' that marriage is really about having good sex (having orgasms together), but also other forms of love, reading it makes me cry, as i think: that's the way it *should* be!
myself atleast if my wife would tell me to shut up I would, but she doesn't. she just runs and refuses me. I had a mother who would always love us by telling us what we did wrong and warning us what *could* go wrong. I understand she did it only to prevent harm from us, but didn't build our confidence. I also agree I think he probably doesn't love himself.
I think that leaving the sponge in the dishwater IS not a thing i'd like either ;-) You are so right about all the things you did for him, but you NEED to take credit for it, otherwise he'll just not see them, or only after you divorce. And tell him in a nice way that HE could then be the one to take the sponge out of the water. In my case i know the things i complain to her, i realize i could also do FOR HER when i notice she forgot them. But *some* things i really repeat 50 times and she just never listens. The BIG problem is that she just does whatever she wants anyway. (sold the house we first stayed at (while i offered to pay her more for it), opened businesses i didn't agree with, etc, and one time cheated on me) Socially though i (used to) listen to her when told not to see this friend or that. But in the house one thing i did not listen (I want to take out my shoes in the bedroom and not downstairs) but really, usually i am the one to communicate about things in the house, and she the one about social affairs we have to go to. Me i refuse to go to social events when i don't want to, and she doesn't want to do the household things i ask her.. Really ofcourse silly things like that ARE NOT THE ISSUE. Feelings are and how the way he reacts make you feel. And sex... analize the hurts you have felt being rejected, and the ones he endured (or ask him). It's important to work on it. Getting relaxation by a good orgasm can nullify a lot of silly complaints! Though huge structural deficiency in contributing cannot be fixed that way, atleast the WILL to work on it can be fixed, and that's an absolute neccessary to improve things. Though your arguments seem completely watertight, his could seem watertight to him (though it's true they sound more made up and he's lazy like most men).
What I think IS important is that when somone has a complaint, the way you rispond maybe makes him feel that instead of caring about him, you nullify his complaint by listing all the things you've done. Nevertheless being a person who -as soon as i feel my wife has a listening ear- will list more and more things that i want changed, i seem to purposely do it and with such force and velocity to make certain she goes into escape mode. In reality I find i always run away when SHE asks for intimacy. This because she has several times interupted halfway , and i feel so vulnerable to get hurt. I overcompensate by all the time wanting affection for her, which she then always refuses. Not a healthy cycle. I've decided that i'll just take what i want when she refuses, and it has helped somewhat though i sometimes ask myself if it's right (was a feminist previously in life). But I do it to save our marriage. The best thing i could do is to be a strong leader instead of a begging husband (begging for a kiss here, a hug there). But it's hard when in my family my mum was the boss. ok it's getting too long, I don't have clear answers, but I think you're WRONG thinking/concluding from his lazyass input and compleining that he DOESN'T CARE. A person who doesn't care, you know what they do? they say nothing, as they don't care. To me al his compleining signifies that he cares a great deal, because the primary function of complaint (for him) is hoping he'll make things better, he just didn't figure out he can so much more make things better by just doing the things himself instead of complaining to you, and he doesn't realize that it makes you feel that he DOESN'T love you, while HIS intent is probably that HE DOES (in his llazyass way)...... I can't say that leaving him wouldn't be a good option, but i see a last chance, and i REALLY RECCOMMEND letting him take care of the children and everything for a few days. (his days off?) just dissapear and do not be available for him. That'll teach him! and he might spend more time with the children.

oops didn't read all the pages, see you already in divorce, hope you find improvement to your life, and you can forgive eachother enough to be also happy when the other finds some happiness.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Sorry anyone following this thread that I haven't posted any updates. So here goes - 

Divorce is definately going ahead. I've been yelled at on the phone at my job and had several abusive texts. I've had to change the locks and open a new bank account. I think the main problem at the moment is STBX thought our divorce would be a completely different thing than what it is. 

My POV is that I have no regrets. What's done is done, but there is no going back for me. My personal opinion is that my STBX is a traitorous b**tard and my opinion of him couldn't be lower. I'm happy for him to spend time with our kids whenever he wants, but I don't want to spend any time with him at all. He seems to find this appalling behaviour on my part. As usual, he can't think two steps infront of himself and apparently the reality that I wouldn't want anything to do with him never entered his mind. Now he's angry. Really angry. Financially, he's out to ruin me and he keeps making personal attacks on me. 

I left my laptop at home during the first couple of weeks of our seperation and I was afraid he'd been snooping and so I haven't posted here because I'm not sure if he knows I've been on this site or not. I've been reduced to taking my laptop to work everyday and I have a car full of important documents that I don't want him to take (I'm happy to give him copies of anything but he threatens to take it all). He's changed things in joint names to his name, effectively cancelling my access to things I should have access to. The list goes on. 

But, how am I doing? I'm doing great. My job pays enough so I'm keeping up with paying all the bills he stuck me with. I've cut costs where I can and my kids are doing fine (not great, but pretty good -they need time to process and get used to things). I have some truly awesome friends and family and my work friends couldn't be more supportive. 

So, next step is getting a financial settlement done. He's not happy about it at all, because now that he's seen the numbers he realizes I don't owe him as much to buy his half of the house as he thought. We have all the valuations now, and if he doesnt make a move to start some kind of negotiation process by the end of the week I have 2 lawyers I've seen and I just have to decide which one I want to use, and I'll go to my lawyer and let them deal with STBX. He's adamant he wanted us to reach a settlement and just have lawyers draw it up for the court because he doesnt have the money, but if he's not going to start a negotiation then I'll get a lawyer and then he'll HAVE to engage one for himself. 

So that's where I'm at. I've got some rough seas ahead with this financial settlement, but apart from that life is good and hopefully going to get better and better. Good times are still to be had.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sorry to hear things are a bit rough. It seems that he is learning that you both have rights, not just him. I guess that’s a hard lesson for some to learn.

Take the papers out of your car and put them someplace safe. If you have to go rent a small storage space and a mail box. Keep important things in the storage space. Change all your mail to the PO box.

What sort of things is he taking your name off of? How is he getting your name removed? Most places will not remove a spouse. You need to contact those companies and find out why they allowed him to remove your name.


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## juno 42 (May 14, 2013)

Thanks EleGirl for your support. He's just doing stupid stuff. He took me off the credit card so I have no access and refuses to give me copies of the statements so I can pay my share. I guess that way it looks like I'm refusing to pay. He was supposed to deposit money into my account so I could pay a household bill and I gave him 3 weeks notice to deposit his half, and he said he'd done it, but it must be a banking error. It'll be there, it'll be there. Guess what? It wasn't and I had to pay $500 bill by myself on the day it was due, and he refuses to pay half the mortgage and I strongly suspect he's been in the house since I changed the locks. 

He doesn't care that he left me short this week and I have 2 kids to feed. If I asked, I'm sure he's got some excuse, so why would I bother asking. I suspect it's because we had an argument the day the bill was due and he needed to 'teach me a lesson'. 

It's fine. One day this man will be gone from my life and he can find someone else to 'teach' how to live their life.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

See a lawyer ASAP, Juno. The way I understand, almost immediately a restraining order goes into place so he cannot legally change financial things. You can also get an order for temporary support for things like mortgage and bills.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You are doing so well, juno. So happy for you. And you seem happier, too. You definitely are doing the right thing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You said you were sarcastic. Sarcasm is an insult rapped in a sugar coating. Never use sarcasam with a loved one.


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