# Dating question, very new to it. Could use some feedback



## unbe

Need some advice everyone.

Im 38, Started online dating about 3 months ago.

The women (35) I am currently seeing is what Im looking for feedback on.

We started talking back in Feb. Due to scheduling conflicts and my general lack in interest, we kept missing meet ups. Initially I wasn't interested in her because I was kinda seeing someone else and I wasn't that attracted to her pics. She was a cool girl and we had some good convos which is why the texting continued. It wss very sparatic though, maybe a text every few days, short convo then nothing. Its prob what kept her interested in the beginning, my lack of availability.

Anyway we finally got on the same page to meet up on 3/29. I went in with low expectations and boy was I surprised. Natural beauty, fun, witty, successful and exactly what I am looking for. Why is she single was the first thought...

First date goes as well as it can. During the night she asks when we are going to see each other again, I suggest memorial day (playing on how long it took us to meet initially) she laughs and suggest the weekend. I had plans Saturday so we agreed to meet Friday after she had dinner with her gf. End of the night I walk her to her car, she asks for a kiss and gets it. Sparks flying everywhere.

Second date we meet up and decide to go for a walk around the park, great convo (no hand holding, or arm holding will get to this later). We sit on a bench for a bit, kiss some more. I drive her home, kiss goodnight and night ends..2 for 2 so far. I text her when I get home saying i had a great night, she says the same. I decide to ask her to dinner Sunday, she says that would be great, third date planned.

Third date we meet in the city, she looks great! Clearly dressing to impress (as am I). Kiss hello, have dinner, great convo. Decide to walk around the city (again no hand holding). We spend a few hours walking around, grab desert. Kiss on the corner passionately ( I stop in the middle to look in her eyes, my signature move lol, and notice her smiling ear to ear). I drive her home and we make plans to see each other this past Friday. She lives and dies by her calendar and appears to be a very busy girl.

Now during the week I start to pick up the texting frequency more to try and build rapport, she clearly isnt on the same page with this so I dial it back by mid week. We get to Friday.

Forth date I pick her up, kiss hello and off to the city. Park the car and head over to the restaurant (we have dinner and show ticket plans). As we are walking to the restaurant she grabs my arm. Progress! (important to me that this happened). We get to the restaurant he she says we need to get a picture together because none of her friends believe i exist. Also during dinner she is joking how she had to try on 5 different outiftis, get opinions from her friends, she doesn't wear makeup that often but had to tonight. That WHEN i meet her parents they are a little wacky. She cant wait to see my house and for me to come to hers. All good signs IMO. I told her I also had a hard time picking out my outfit and had to send them to my sis and mom for feedback.

She then asks me if I am emotionally scared from my previous marriage, will I not want to get married again. I of course diffuse this and explain how I waited a while to get into dating so I wouldn't make someone pay for my x's past digressions. I would abosultey get married again if I found the right person.

She then asks am I the type of guy who falls in love fast. To this I say not at all but when I find someone I like, I do enjoy spending time with them

Sht test passed IMO!

Out of all of this I gather she wants to take things slow. She is prob guarded from her past relationship (which was 6 months ago) she dated him on and off for 2.5 years. If I had to guess, she thought he was the guy shes going to marry and it didn't work out. Also, she may be very well the person who falls in love fast and is scared and is now trying to slow it down.

Dinner is over and we are off to the show. Show went well however she was checking her phone during it which kinda annoyed me. She is on her phone a lot and this is the one thing so far that gets to me. Not sure when I should bring this up but I will at some point.

Anyway show ends, we are both pretty tired so we head back to her house. During the drive I had suggested her to come over for dinner Sunday night. She said she had plans but would 100% take a rain check. We had made plans for next Saturday (I had got ticks to a ball game and asked her during the week if she was free to go). She said that the next time she can see me is then but after the game we can go back to her place and hang out.

We get back to her place, kiss goodnight in the car and part our separate ways. She asks me to text her when I get in so I do. To which she does not respond.

I do hear from her again but not until last night, small talk mainly.

Ok this is my question(s).

1- How do I continue conversation during this upcoming week (this is what I struggle with mostly, over-eagerness). WITHOUT LOOKING TO NEEDY

2- Opinions on her mindset and am I reading this correctly.

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## 2ndchanceGuy

Just keep it light. She my be trying to decide between you and another guy ??
But you are right , be very careful to not come across as needy or pushy.


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## frusdil

How long since you last saw or talked to her? Sorry, just confused...is the ball game this coming Saturday or was it Sat just gone?


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## Wolf1974

Agree with 2ndchanceguy. Don't come off as need. Short and sweet conversations are best now. But it wouldn't hurt to once mention that you have enjoyed getting to know her and then sometime later start a text off with hey I was just thinking about you. Don't get pushy though . She may be narrowing down things between you and someone else so just keep it casual for now.


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## Betrayedone

Be polite but keep your emotional distance right now. You don't want to set yourself up for an emotional fall. Too soon to commit. Have the attitude of "if it is supposed to happen it will happen."


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## unbe

2ndchanceGuy said:


> Just keep it light. She my be trying to decide between you and another guy ??
> But you are right , be very careful to not come across as needy or pushy.


Thanks buddy, I cant see there being anyone else in the picture but that could just be me being oblivious.


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## unbe

frusdil said:


> How long since you last saw or talked to her? Sorry, just confused...is the ball game this coming Saturday or was it Sat just gone?


So the game is this weekend.

We saw each other Friday, she then reached out Sat night with a text..small talk.

I texted on Sunday mid day with a text saying that I hoped she was having a good time with her friends (she had mentioned fri she had plans with them). She did not respond all day.

This morning I got a text from her apologizing for not responding and wishing me a good day. Im not sure if I should respond or not, leaning towards no


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## unbe

Wolf1974 said:


> Agree with 2ndchanceguy. Don't come off as need. Short and sweet conversations are best now. But it wouldn't hurt to once mention that you have enjoyed getting to know her and then sometime later start a text off with hey I was just thinking about you. Don't get pushy though . She may be narrowing down things between you and someone else so just keep it casual for now.


Thanks Wolf. We have had the (its been great so far) conversation where I initaited it and ahe agreed. Also, when we were out last she brought up how she loves spending time with me. 

Like I said, I think she has her guard way up now and every now and again it comes down. She told me she grew up as a tomboy, alot of guy friends. Very independent. Not sure how she would respond to a thinking about you text at this point. Im guessing it may just go ignored....


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## unbe

Betrayedone said:


> Be polite but keep your emotional distance right now. You don't want to set yourself up for an emotional fall. Too soon to commit. Have the attitude of "if it is supposed to happen it will happen."


Seems like very solid advice. Although I would love to push the commitment talk I dont think its even necessary. I am 95% sure she isnt seeing anyone else anyway so why even bother.


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## frusdil

Just remember that you've only really known her for two weeks. Everything discussed online prior to actually meeting doesn't count...until you meet in person, you don't really know each other.

You're right not to be constantly texting/calling - that would come off as desperate and needy and you don't want that. Don't ignore her texts though - always reply. If she texts you again wishing you a good day, reply with something like "You too, I'm looking forward to Saturday". It's not too much, and it says that you're looking forward to seeing her...we love that stuff


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## GB McKenna

unbe said:


> So the game is this weekend.
> 
> We saw each other Friday, she then reached out Sat night with a text..small talk.
> 
> I texted on Sunday mid day with a text saying that I hoped she was having a good time with her friends (she had mentioned fri she had plans with them). She did not respond all day.
> 
> This morning I got a text from her apologizing for not responding and wishing me a good day. Im not sure if I should respond or not, leaning towards no


In those cases, respond, but not immediately. And the response should be measured to the tone of her text. It sucks to have to play these kinds of games but the culture (and technology) encourages it, so we do what we must.

She may very well be busy. She male also get caught up and not have/check her phone. She may be taking it slow. She may be independent. 

I'd remain optimistic (read: confident with a twist of indifference) but also be cautious about projecting too much into her state of mind and instead focus on her behavior. 

Namely, a woman who is often on her phone while she is with you but then does not text back for long periods of time when she is not with you. This is worth noting. Most "single" women these days rarely go without their phones for any period of time outside of sleep, so she's either inconsistent with her phone habits or is in situations in which she cannot access her phone for long periods. Ever seen a group of women out for brunch? They ALL have their phones out and are ALL engaging in text or other forms of communication. 

An independent woman with a lot of male friends means orbiters. She is online and if she is even semi cute she has 10x the attention that you are attracting via your account. At 35, this is tapering off and she likely can feel it. This, coupled with her desire to marry, means she is likely working multiple men and is taking it slow because this allows her to do so - and it allows her to inflate the price of her sex. IOW, keep the men chasing, keep her in the position of being the "prize".

Now, the other men may not be "dating" her, but there is definitely another man or even men. This should always be presumed. Many women in her age cohort will claim to be single, or even not dating anyone, which is technically true. But many of these same women think they will turn into a nun if they go three months without a bang. 

Their are exes who pass thru town, the guy back in Boston, the guy at work, the on/off ex who is still a "good friend but not romantic", the guy she thinks is hot but not "relationship material", and any number of guys who pop up on her dating account, etc. Be careful to not presume that you are competing with a pre-defined position, aka "boyfriend". 

In fact, it wouldn't hurt to work on your own options. You should always have more women you are pursuing. It needn't be hard n fast, but could even be planting seeds, cultivating some long-game potentials, but it had better be something. You need to internalize the fact that you are the prize. When it comes to commitment and marriage, as a 38 y/o man you are in high demand. This should instruct your actions. You need to work on how she can qualify to you, to reverse a bit of what seems like you being the one chasing.

And finally, You are competing with her raw desire and attraction first and foremost. Since she is likely husband hunting, you are also competing in the sphere of provision-protection-status. But given the dating market, this is of secondary concern. 

Sexual attraction is the gateway for everything else. It is through that lens that she will come to value your other attributes. If this is inverted, she is looking through the wrong end of the telescope and that is a position you are better off understanding sooner as opposed to later. You do not want to become her plan B.

Not sure about your beliefs re: sex, commitment, etc. but unless you are of the mindset that you desire to have commitment or some other contexts prior to sex, you will need to work on how you progress this dimension. You need to press this issue and read the cues she is sending. Inconsistencies in physical contact (passionate kissing here, but no hand holding there; availability that is sporadic for no reason; how she creates opportunities for you to be physical (or not); if/how the conversations are flirty and if/how they are sexualized; and ultimately, how she informs you of her desire. 

This is where you need to do your work. You have to present yourself as a sexual being who is interested in her as a person but not at the cost of subordinating your own desire for her such that the default is one of friends morphing into "more than". 

Indeed she may not "be ready" or want to "take it slow" but if this is not accompanied by a raw sexual desire that you can tell she is having a hard time hiding/managing, then you are either not her first choice, her priority, or she is indeed not ready for the kind of relationship that you and she have pre-determined. 

So: be the prize - a man with options, calibrate your investment based on her behavior, cultivate other women, escalate your sexual interest in her, be patient with her not because you are "nice" but because you have other options, be clear and firm in your boundaries and expectations but do so with an air of fun, flirty confidence. And always operate with the assumption there is another man in the picture and the corollary: that you always have other options. Good luck!


edit: And don't bring up any commitment talk, define the relationship, etc. That is what she must earn from you. Your concern should be based on the attraction-action component.


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## Betrayedone

GB McKenna said:


> In those cases, respond, but not immediately. And the response should be measured to the tone of her text. It sucks to have to play these kinds of games but the culture (and technology) encourages it, so we do what we must.
> 
> She may very well be busy. She male also get caught up and not have/check her phone. She may be taking it slow. She may be independent.
> 
> I'd remain optimistic (read: confident with a twist of indifference) but also be cautious about projecting too much into her state of mind and instead focus on her behavior.
> 
> Namely, a woman who is often on her phone while she is with you but then does not text back for long periods of time when she is not with you. This is worth noting. Most "single" women these days rarely go without their phones for any period of time outside of sleep, so she's either inconsistent with her phone habits or is in situations in which she cannot access her phone for long periods. Ever seen a group of women out for brunch? They ALL have their phones out and are ALL engaging in text or other forms of communication.
> 
> An independent woman with a lot of male friends means orbiters. She is online and if she is even semi cute she has 10x the attention that you are attracting via your account. At 35, this is tapering off and she likely can feel it. This, coupled with her desire to marry, means she is likely working multiple men and is taking it slow because this allows her to do so - and it allows her to inflate the price of her sex. IOW, keep the men chasing, keep her in the position of being the "prize".
> 
> Now, the other men may not be "dating" her, but there is definitely another man or even men. This should always be presumed. Many women in her age cohort will claim to be single, or even not dating anyone, which is technically true. But many of these same women think they will turn into a nun if they go three months without a bang.
> 
> Their are exes who pass thru town, the guy back in Boston, the guy at work, the on/off ex who is still a "good friend but not romantic", the guy she thinks is hot but not "relationship material", and any number of guys who pop up on her dating account, etc. Be careful to not presume that you are competing with a pre-defined position, aka "boyfriend".
> 
> In fact, it wouldn't hurt to work on your own options. You should always have more women you are pursuing. It needn't be hard n fast, but could even be planting seeds, cultivating some long-game potentials, but it had better be something. You need to internalize the fact that you are the prize. When it comes to commitment and marriage, as a 38 y/o man you are in high demand. This should instruct your actions. You need to work on how she can qualify to you, to reverse a bit of what seems like you being the one chasing.
> 
> And finally, You are competing with her raw desire and attraction first and foremost. Since she is likely husband hunting, you are also competing in the sphere of provision-protection-status. But given the dating market, this is of secondary concern.
> 
> Sexual attraction is the gateway for everything else. It is through that lens that she will come to value your other attributes. If this is inverted, she is looking through the wrong end of the telescope and that is a position you are better off understanding sooner as opposed to later. You do not want to become her plan B.
> 
> Not sure about your beliefs re: sex, commitment, etc. but unless you are of the mindset that you desire to have commitment or some other contexts prior to sex, you will need to work on how you progress this dimension. You need to press this issue and read the cues she is sending. Inconsistencies in physical contact (passionate kissing here, but no hand holding there; availability that is sporadic for no reason; how she creates opportunities for you to be physical (or not); if/how the conversations are flirty and if/how they are sexualized; and ultimately, how she informs you of her desire.
> 
> This is where you need to do your work. You have to present yourself as a sexual being who is interested in her as a person but not at the cost of subordinating your own desire for her such that the default is one of friends morphing into "more than".
> 
> Indeed she may not "be ready" or want to "take it slow" but if this is not accompanied by a raw sexual desire that you can tell she is having a hard time hiding/managing, then you are either not her first choice, her priority, or she is indeed not ready for the kind of relationship that you and she have pre-determined.
> 
> So: be the prize - a man with options, calibrate your investment based on her behavior, cultivate other women, escalate your sexual interest in her, be patient with her not because you are "nice" but because you have other options, be clear and firm in your boundaries and expectations but do so with an air of fun, flirty confidence. And always operate with the assumption there is another man in the picture and the corollary: that you always have other options. Good luck!
> 
> 
> edit: And don't bring up any commitment talk, define the relationship, etc. That is what she must earn from you. Your concern should be based on the attraction-action component.


Absolutely brilliant advice!


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## unbe

frusdil said:


> Just remember that you've only really known her for two weeks. Everything discussed online prior to actually meeting doesn't count...until you meet in person, you don't really know each other.
> 
> You're right not to be constantly texting/calling - that would come off as desperate and needy and you don't want that. Don't ignore her texts though - always reply. If she texts you again wishing you a good day, reply with something like "You too, I'm looking forward to Saturday". It's not too much, and it says that you're looking forward to seeing her...we love that stuff


So i did wind up responding around 4:30 "hey there, no worries about yestredy hope your habing a great day. Quick question, do you have anyuthing on your calendar for the 20th?"

I was handed some tickets to a hockey playoff game which happens to be her favorite team so I was going to ask her if she wanted to come. I didnt want to mention why I was asking if she was free just yet because I want to see if she wants to see me just because and not what I can offer. 

She wound up calling me on her way home and we chatted for a bit. Says she will get back me to today if she is free or not next wed. I asked her about her day (she loves to talk/complain about work and working with idiots) so I let her vent it out. She then said at lease we have Saturday to look forward to. I agreed and ended the convo with "lets catch up during the week"

Was planning on sending a text mid day with a funny pic about working with idiots (maybe tomorrow). Then nothing else unless until Friday. Friday would be just confirming logistics for sat. 

Hows this sound to everyone?


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## unbe

GB McKenna said:


> In those cases, respond, but not immediately. And the response should be measured to the tone of her text. It sucks to have to play these kinds of games but the culture (and technology) encourages it, so we do what we must.
> 
> She may very well be busy. She male also get caught up and not have/check her phone. She may be taking it slow. She may be independent.
> 
> I'd remain optimistic (read: confident with a twist of indifference) but also be cautious about projecting too much into her state of mind and instead focus on her behavior.
> 
> Namely, a woman who is often on her phone while she is with you but then does not text back for long periods of time when she is not with you. This is worth noting. Most "single" women these days rarely go without their phones for any period of time outside of sleep, so she's either inconsistent with her phone habits or is in situations in which she cannot access her phone for long periods. Ever seen a group of women out for brunch? They ALL have their phones out and are ALL engaging in text or other forms of communication.
> 
> An independent woman with a lot of male friends means orbiters. She is online and if she is even semi cute she has 10x the attention that you are attracting via your account. At 35, this is tapering off and she likely can feel it. This, coupled with her desire to marry, means she is likely working multiple men and is taking it slow because this allows her to do so - and it allows her to inflate the price of her sex. IOW, keep the men chasing, keep her in the position of being the "prize".
> 
> Now, the other men may not be "dating" her, but there is definitely another man or even men. This should always be presumed. Many women in her age cohort will claim to be single, or even not dating anyone, which is technically true. But many of these same women think they will turn into a nun if they go three months without a bang.
> 
> Their are exes who pass thru town, the guy back in Boston, the guy at work, the on/off ex who is still a "good friend but not romantic", the guy she thinks is hot but not "relationship material", and any number of guys who pop up on her dating account, etc. Be careful to not presume that you are competing with a pre-defined position, aka "boyfriend".
> 
> In fact, it wouldn't hurt to work on your own options. You should always have more women you are pursuing. It needn't be hard n fast, but could even be planting seeds, cultivating some long-game potentials, but it had better be something. You need to internalize the fact that you are the prize. When it comes to commitment and marriage, as a 38 y/o man you are in high demand. This should instruct your actions. You need to work on how she can qualify to you, to reverse a bit of what seems like you being the one chasing.
> 
> And finally, You are competing with her raw desire and attraction first and foremost. Since she is likely husband hunting, you are also competing in the sphere of provision-protection-status. But given the dating market, this is of secondary concern.
> 
> Sexual attraction is the gateway for everything else. It is through that lens that she will come to value your other attributes. If this is inverted, she is looking through the wrong end of the telescope and that is a position you are better off understanding sooner as opposed to later. You do not want to become her plan B.
> 
> Not sure about your beliefs re: sex, commitment, etc. but unless you are of the mindset that you desire to have commitment or some other contexts prior to sex, you will need to work on how you progress this dimension. You need to press this issue and read the cues she is sending. Inconsistencies in physical contact (passionate kissing here, but no hand holding there; availability that is sporadic for no reason; how she creates opportunities for you to be physical (or not); if/how the conversations are flirty and if/how they are sexualized; and ultimately, how she informs you of her desire.
> 
> This is where you need to do your work. You have to present yourself as a sexual being who is interested in her as a person but not at the cost of subordinating your own desire for her such that the default is one of friends morphing into "more than".
> 
> Indeed she may not "be ready" or want to "take it slow" but if this is not accompanied by a raw sexual desire that you can tell she is having a hard time hiding/managing, then you are either not her first choice, her priority, or she is indeed not ready for the kind of relationship that you and she have pre-determined.
> 
> So: be the prize - a man with options, calibrate your investment based on her behavior, cultivate other women, escalate your sexual interest in her, be patient with her not because you are "nice" but because you have other options, be clear and firm in your boundaries and expectations but do so with an air of fun, flirty confidence. And always operate with the assumption there is another man in the picture and the corollary: that you always have other options. Good luck!
> 
> 
> edit: And don't bring up any commitment talk, define the relationship, etc. That is what she must earn from you. Your concern should be based on the attraction-action component.



Wow, thanks for the time you put into this. Alot to comment on.


In those cases, respond, but not immediately. And the response should be measured to the tone of her text. It sucks to have to play these kinds of games but the culture (and technology) encourages it, so we do what we must.- Agreed. Honestly what I think kept her so interested in the begninng was I wasn't interested in her and she was prob not use to that, I became interesting/unataionable and therefore desriable, even prior to meeting. I need to get back to this, starting today.

She may very well be busy. She male also get caught up and not have/check her phone. She may be taking it slow. She may be independent. She may just be sht testing me to see how needy I am. I have a feeling its a combo of all the above.

Namely, a woman who is often on her phone while she is with you but then does not text back for long periods of time when she is not with you. This is worth noting. Most "single" women these days rarely go without their phones for any period of time outside of sleep, so she's either inconsistent with her phone habits or is in situations in which she cannot access her phone for long periods. Ever seen a group of women out for brunch? They ALL have their phones out and are ALL engaging in text or other forms of communication. Very confusing indeed. Multiple mixed signals here. She is clearly always on her phone and there is next to no excuse for returning a text 24 hours later unless shes being coached. 

An independent woman with a lot of male friends means orbiters. She is online and if she is even semi cute she has 10x the attention that you are attracting via your account. At 35, this is tapering off and she likely can feel it. This, coupled with her desire to marry, means she is likely working multiple men and is taking it slow because this allows her to do so - and it allows her to inflate the price of her sex. IOW, keep the men chasing, keep her in the position of being the "prize".Heres the thing. This girl does not photograph well AT ALL. Which is why, I wasn't initially interested. Lets say in her photos she projects as a 5 or 6. In person shes a 8 or 9. Therefore, I don't think the online is garnering as much interested as we may think. However, the orbiters in her life already are clearly there. She may very well be dating others and it would foolish of me to drink otherwise. I dont think its any NEW contenders though. I would say though based on her actions WHEN WE ARE TOGETHER. She is getting more comfortable, is clearly attracted to me, and I am currently plan A. She has brought up my feelings on re-marriage and kids multiple times. This is a qualifying question IMO.

Now, the other men may not be "dating" her, but there is definitely another man or even men. This should always be presumed. Many women in her age cohort will claim to be single, or even not dating anyone, which is technically true. But many of these same women think they will turn into a nun if they go three months without a bang. With the timing of her last break up, I am not sure what type of dynamic she may be in with another guy. Neither of us have brought the subject up

In fact, it wouldn't hurt to work on your own options. You should always have more women you are pursuing. It needn't be hard n fast, but could even be planting seeds, cultivating some long-game potentials, but it had better be something. You need to internalize the fact that you are the prize. When it comes to commitment and marriage, as a 38 y/o man you are in high demand. This should instruct your actions. You need to work on how she can qualify to you, to reverse a bit of what seems like you being the one chasing.I am currently doing this. I do have a few I have been dating prior to when we met. One of which I really did like (until I met this one). Problem is, once someone becomes your plan B, they can sense it and thats what happened. I am currently chating/hanging out with around 3-4 others. I think dialing back my avaialibilty will start to reverse the chase a bit. Again though, she is clearly my plan A so this will be difficult and against my instincts.

And finally, You are competing with her raw desire and attraction first and foremost. Since she is likely husband hunting, you are also competing in the sphere of provision-protection-status. But given the dating market, this is of secondary concern. I seem to be handling this well at the moment. She is clearly attracted and the smile while we are kissing is a great sign. Lets see if the invite to her house on Saturday actually comes through. I feel there may need to be a push from my end when the day comes. 

Not sure about your beliefs re: sex, commitment, etc. but unless you are of the mindset that you desire to have commitment or some other contexts prior to sex, you will need to work on how you progress this dimension. You need to press this issue and read the cues she is sending. Inconsistencies in physical contact (passionate kissing here, but no hand holding there; availability that is sporadic for no reason; how she creates opportunities for you to be physical (or not); if/how the conversations are flirty and if/how they are sexualized; and ultimately, how she informs you of her desire. 

This is where you need to do your work. You have to present yourself as a sexual being who is interested in her as a person but not at the cost of subordinating your own desire for her such that the default is one of friends morphing into "more than". 

I need work here. The conversations have no progressed to this. There are clear walls/tests up here that I haven't knocked down/passed yet. I fear I am up against the dreaded third party influence of her friends here. An invite back to the house will provide me the opportunity to start advancing this, even if not to sex. The intimacy does need to start to progress soon! Friends and perhaps even a little scared from her prev R. I will not press the invite, I do game plan the dates however into a position where we do end up at places where this can happen however she needs to be the one to open the door. Once its open, it will be on me! 

Indeed she may not "be ready" or want to "take it slow" but if this is not accompanied by a raw sexual desire that you can tell she is having a hard time hiding/managing, then you are either not her first choice, her priority, or she is indeed not ready for the kind of relationship that you and she have pre-determined. Cant read this yet but im leaning towards prev R ending very badly (which she did tell me early on).

So: be the prize - a man with options, calibrate your investment based on her behavior, cultivate other women, escalate your sexual interest in her, be patient with her not because you are "nice" but because you have other options, be clear and firm in your boundaries and expectations but do so with an air of fun, flirty confidence. And always operate with the assumption there is another man in the picture and the corollary: that you always have other options. Good luck!Great advice. Basically I need to go back to the guy I was prior to us meeting. Thats what attracted her initially.

edit: And don't bring up any commitment talk, define the relationship, etc. That is what she must earn from you. Your concern should be based on the attraction-action component.By far my biggest struggle will be to keep this convo out of the pic because its clearly what I want.


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## GB McKenna

unbe. 
Seems like you have a great handle on the situation, all things considered. You are correct that she might be getting some coaching. Unfortunately, women are increasingly reliant on "dating by committee", i.e. soliciting play-by-play feedback, advice, opinions, and third-party assessment of the intent, value, attractiveness, etc. of potential men that carries with it obvious limitations and sweeping subjectivity that I believe is ultimately counterproductive. 

You can see a part of this in play when you see how women show their phones to one another when texting (presumably) with the roulette wheel of men. "Look what he said, lol, what should I say?" I'm admittedly old-fashioned, but I don't show my texts to anyone - at least not when in the context of romance and certainly not when it is with a woman that I am vetting in the context of a relationship. But the reality is that if she got hurt last time around, then she is more likely to be soliciting some steerage from her besties which means she is likely still a bit raw and subject to a lot of bad advice, e.g. "Play hard to get". 

Its a social-media fueled phenom in my meager opinion, so that means it is not likely to change. 

I think if commitment and being the boyfriend is your end-game then you are on the right page. And if you are reading her correctly (that she is also looking for only a serious, marital path relationship) I'd advise reigning in a bit of the chase as you have noted. But since her previous relationship didn't end well and it is likely she thought it was leading to marriage, you are correct to assume she is going to probe for those intentions and status signals, so shore up that bit of patient indifference with some signals of comfort. This may very well come more naturally to you than the indifference mindset, so be mindful of how this creeps in as those comfort traits can cost you if not managed. There is no easy way to explain this or a one-size fits all approach. You explain yourself well, so I won't pretend to be an expert on this. I'm still oscillating with these dimensions on my own.

Good to hear you have some irons in the fire. That is a mistake that most men make - repeatedly. We tend to project many facets of our own perspective and experience "out there" onto these women and forgetting that attractive women have had a fairly constant stream of men approaching, courting, helping, talking, complimenting, and pursuing in all varieties of aggression and intent since they were 15. A bad online profile is not the same as a bad online profile for a man. Just like an attractive woman can get a guys number in the condiments isle at the grocery story whereas an attractive man would still likely have to do the work up front for that.

The other man idea needn't be constrained to a pure romance, a pure relationship prospect, or just a "Friend," These days there is a lot of swerving. Just friends become FWB, Facebook friends become emotional lovers, orbiters at work become work husbands, etc. So I always caution against behaviors that will put you in a bucket you do not desire too occupy early on in the process, e.g. He's boyfriend material, thus I will make him wait and perform for me or conversely, he is not relationship material but hot, thus I will sex him up under no certain terms but hold firm on any messy emotional stuff. 

The fact that many women (and to be fair, men too) will cherry pick from the sushi menu of relationship contents to have multiple men, each fulfilling some compartmentalized need or desire, and then cycle through these different strategies on a whim, at different times in their lives, for different reasons, and of course depending on the man in question, all lends to these kinds of "mixed signals" situations. So the short of it is: there is no such thing as mixed signals. Just our own inability or inexperience in translating her behavior into her desire and intent. Personally, I tend to be more of a comfort/provider personality so I have to work to avoid painting myself into that corner too early because I have learned the hard way that with all governors removed, within a culture bent on instant gratification and pleasure, if I'm not the bang first worry about the rest later guy in her eyes, it probably isn't going to be worth the wait to ferret out exactly where I stand on some tickler of perpetual optionality that the social-media infused sexual market propagates.

If a woman really wants you, she will make this known. If a woman is really available to you, she will do everything in her power to make this known. I didn't realize this until I stopped playing by the old script (dinner and a move and then I get to be the boyfriend) and instead saw what women actually were responding to in terms of real investment (time, sex, priorities, thoughtful foresight) and started to incorporate that in my own approach. Then I realized very quickly that if a woman wants to bang you, she will find a way to bang you, but if a woman wants to vet you, she will similarly find a way to continually make you qualify. 

So if a woman really finds you to be "hawt", she will demonstrate this in no uncertain terms. Sure, we have to be better at reading the cues and there are some gray areas, some overlap, but it is on us to take action to move her into situations and contexts that remove the gray as soon as possible. 

I've encountered numerous women who are intimately involved (emotional or "just" physical) with other men in some way while they are single and looking. I've no interest in taking her to the ball game only to have her crawl into some other guys bed later that night. So I typically filter these women out because I'm not interested in some perpetual game of the principle of least interest meets dog and pony show with an endless stream of potential chads on Tinder. 

Occasionally I will misread, but I'd rather error on the side that puts me first as opposed to the one that lands me in the expensive and protracted consolation bracket. And interestingly, the "misread" often comes back around because it is actually rare for a man to stand up for himself and operate under the assumption that he is the prize and has many options. (Men sell themselves short in this age bracket especially.)

Its still early, but at some point you have to decide. She's either available or she is not; she is either really into me or she is not. Forcing a bit of black and white into it can be tricky since we all like to rationalize, but I find it can save a lot of time and heartache. The rub is just when to do this - and that can vary a lot. Listen to your gut is the cliche, but apt nonetheless. Don't over analyze every move but do pay attention. They will tell you through their actions.

Taking control of the dates is a good thing. Demonstrating leadership in this goes a long way. The only thing I would recommend is that in doing so you are operating from the standpoint of inviting her into your life as opposed to equivocating according to her life, schedule, tastes, etc. If she has a particular thing or place or idea or likes, she is free to make those known and take a bit of the lead in sharing time as well. We are all equal right? lol. But if she is rather passive and not engaging on her own accord in terms of making future plans, this is a bit of a red flag. 

That said, it is also a good opportunity to demonstrate your decision making, planning, thoughtfulness, and general awesomeness of your life, the life you are theoretically asking her to join. Don't get in the habit of being overly accommodating. You have a social life independent of her, you have interests and activities planned independent of her, so this should be how "dates" are presented. 

The more she demonstrates her investment, the more you can craft those dates and your time as a function of your mutual interests and you being thoughtful of her specific interests. But until then, you are a busy man too, your dance card is full. Again, you do not want to pigeonhole yourself into the boyfriend/provider role, dinner and a movie, without (behavioral) assurance from her that you are also the guy she really just wants to bang in the back of the car in the parking lot of the theater and skip the movie.

If you feel you have expressed your interest in her sufficiently, I'd dial back the texting in general. Save that text on the work funny if/when she reaches out to you first. Ball is in her court re: confirming for wednesday, so I'd leave it at that. 

I'm a bit different than most I think because I hate texting and so if it is important I will often just call them. If it is not important I assume I'm just one more dude in her phone and my responses are moderated accordingly. (Which is true, BTW. I've got sisters. They show me their phones. I LOL. Its like a cat playing with mice for entertainment.) Its a tool, don't let it set the tone of the relationship. A lot is lost in shorthand translation and there is a lot of downside. As an aside, I think it is a good sign that she called you directly.


----------



## unbe

Ok, so CEO reached out (fitting nickname IMO) and confirmed she is available for Wednesday. I then hit her with the reason and she is super excited.

Also sent a funny pic reg idiot co-workers which she responded too....

Think I got the game plan, need to stick with it now. We are heading in the right direction


----------



## unbe

GB McKenna said:


> unbe.
> Seems like you have a great handle on the situation, all things considered. You are correct that she might be getting some coaching. Unfortunately, women are increasingly reliant on "dating by committee", i.e. soliciting play-by-play feedback, advice, opinions, and third-party assessment of the intent, value, attractiveness, etc. of potential men that carries with it obvious limitations and sweeping subjectivity that I believe is ultimately counterproductive. - Case in point asking for a pic so that her friends can see.
> 
> You can see a part of this in play when you see how women show their phones to one another when texting (presumably) with the roulette wheel of men. "Look what he said, lol, what should I say?" I'm admittedly old-fashioned, but I don't show my texts to anyone - at least not when in the context of romance and certainly not when it is with a woman that I am vetting in the context of a relationship. But the reality is that if she got hurt last time around, then she is more likely to be soliciting some steerage from her besties which means she is likely still a bit raw and subject to a lot of bad advice, e.g. "Play hard to get". And the IM too busy for the world attitude
> 
> Its a social-media fueled phenom in my meager opinion, so that means it is not likely to change.
> 
> I think if commitment and being the boyfriend is your end-game then you are on the right page. And if you are reading her correctly (that she is also looking for only a serious, marital path relationship) I'd advise reigning in a bit of the chase as you have noted. But since her previous relationship didn't end well and it is likely she thought it was leading to marriage, you are correct to assume she is going to probe for those intentions and status signals, so shore up that bit of patient indifference with some signals of comfort. This may very well come more naturally to you than the indifference mindset, so be mindful of how this creeps in as those comfort traits can cost you if not managed. There is no easy way to explain this or a one-size fits all approach. You explain yourself well, so I won't pretend to be an expert on this. I'm still oscillating with these dimensions on my own. I think I can naturally handle this in my in-person dealings with her which is why she ultimately responds the way she does during our interactions. Also, no matter how much coaching there is between these meet ups, nature and instincts take over during
> 
> Good to hear you have some irons in the fire. That is a mistake that most men make - repeatedly. We tend to project many facets of our own perspective and experience "out there" onto these women and forgetting that attractive women have had a fairly constant stream of men approaching, courting, helping, talking, complimenting, and pursuing in all varieties of aggression and intent since they were 15. A bad online profile is not the same as a bad online profile for a man. Just like an attractive woman can get a guys number in the condiments isle at the grocery story whereas an attractive man would still likely have to do the work up front for that.
> 
> The other man idea needn't be constrained to a pure romance, a pure relationship prospect, or just a "Friend," These days there is a lot of swerving. Just friends become FWB, Facebook friends become emotional lovers, orbiters at work become work husbands, etc. So I always caution against behaviors that will put you in a bucket you do not desire too occupy early on in the process, e.g. He's boyfriend material, thus I will make him wait and perform for me or conversely, he is not relationship material but hot, thus I will sex him up under no certain terms but hold firm on any messy emotional stuff.
> 
> The fact that many women (and to be fair, men too) will cherry pick from the sushi menu of relationship contents to have multiple men, each fulfilling some compartmentalized need or desire, and then cycle through these different strategies on a whim, at different times in their lives, for different reasons, and of course depending on the man in question, all lends to these kinds of "mixed signals" situations. So the short of it is: there is no such thing as mixed signals. Just our own inability or inexperience in translating her behavior into her desire and intent. Personally, I tend to be more of a comfort/provider personality so I have to work to avoid painting myself into that corner too early because I have learned the hard way that with all governors removed, within a culture bent on instant gratification and pleasure, if I'm not the bang first worry about the rest later guy in her eyes, it probably isn't going to be worth the wait to ferret out exactly where I stand on some tickler of perpetual optionality that the social-media infused sexual market propagates.
> 
> If a woman really wants you, she will make this known. If a woman is really available to you, she will do everything in her power to make this known. I didn't realize this until I stopped playing by the old script (dinner and a move and then I get to be the boyfriend) and instead saw what women actually were responding to in terms of real investment (time, sex, priorities, thoughtful foresight) and started to incorporate that in my own approach. Then I realized very quickly that if a woman wants to bang you, she will find a way to bang you, but if a woman wants to vet you, she will similarly find a way to continually make you qualify. Which seems to be the pattern I am currently in, although with her comment about hanging at her place after the game may be progressing. This isn't the type of women to just throw out a comment like that without a purpose behind it
> 
> So if a woman really finds you to be "hawt", she will demonstrate this in no uncertain terms. Sure, we have to be better at reading the cues and there are some gray areas, some overlap, but it is on us to take action to move her into situations and contexts that remove the gray as soon as possible.
> 
> I've encountered numerous women who are intimately involved (emotional or "just" physical) with other men in some way while they are single and looking. I've no interest in taking her to the ball game only to have her crawl into some other guys bed later that night. So I typically filter these women out because I'm not interested in some perpetual game of the principle of least interest meets dog and pony show with an endless stream of potential chads on Tinder.
> 
> Occasionally I will misread, but I'd rather error on the side that puts me first as opposed to the one that lands me in the expensive and protracted consolation bracket. And interestingly, the "misread" often comes back around because it is actually rare for a man to stand up for himself and operate under the assumption that he is the prize and has many options. (Men sell themselves short in this age bracket especially.)
> 
> Its still early, but at some point you have to decide. She's either available or she is not; she is either really into me or she is not. Forcing a bit of black and white into it can be tricky since we all like to rationalize, but I find it can save a lot of time and heartache. The rub is just when to do this - and that can vary a lot. Listen to your gut is the cliche, but apt nonetheless. Don't over analyze every move but do pay attention. They will tell you through their actions. I feel this time will come, its still a bit early for this IMO
> 
> Taking control of the dates is a good thing. Demonstrating leadership in this goes a long way. The only thing I would recommend is that in doing so you are operating from the standpoint of inviting her into your life as opposed to equivocating according to her life, schedule, tastes, etc. If she has a particular thing or place or idea or likes, she is free to make those known and take a bit of the lead in sharing time as well. We are all equal right? lol. But if she is rather passive and not engaging on her own accord in terms of making future plans, this is a bit of a red flag. She took the initiative to schedule the first and second. I have now done the third, 4th and 5th. They are however dates in which I was going anyway and it would be great for her to join me.
> 
> That said, it is also a good opportunity to demonstrate your decision making, planning, thoughtfulness, and general awesomeness of your life, the life you are theoretically asking her to join. Don't get in the habit of being overly accommodating. You have a social life independent of her, you have interests and activities planned independent of her, so this should be how "dates" are presented.
> 
> The more she demonstrates her investment, the more you can craft those dates and your time as a function of your mutual interests and you being thoughtful of her specific interests. But until then, you are a busy man too, your dance card is full. Again, you do not want to pigeonhole yourself into the boyfriend/provider role, dinner and a movie, without (behavioral) assurance from her that you are also the guy she really just wants to bang in the back of the car in the parking lot of the theater and skip the movie. Bingo. Well said! Saturday will be a big step in revealing this.
> 
> If you feel you have expressed your interest in her sufficiently, I'd dial back the texting in general. Save that text on the work funny if/when she reaches out to you first. Ball is in her court re: confirming for wednesday, so I'd leave it at that.
> 
> I'm a bit different than most I think because I hate texting and so if it is important I will often just call them. If it is not important I assume I'm just one more dude in her phone and my responses are moderated accordingly. (Which is true, BTW. I've got sisters. They show me their phones. I LOL. Its like a cat playing with mice for entertainment.) Its a tool, don't let it set the tone of the relationship. A lot is lost in shorthand translation and there is a lot of downside. As an aside, I think it is a good sign that she called you directly.


----------



## frusdil

unbe said:


> So i did wind up responding around 4:30 "hey there, no worries about yestredy hope your habing a great day. Quick question, do you have anyuthing on your calendar for the 20th?"
> 
> I was handed some tickets to a hockey playoff game which happens to be her favorite team so I was going to ask her if she wanted to come. I didnt want to mention why I was asking if she was free just yet because I want to see if she wants to see me just because and not what I can offer.
> 
> She wound up calling me on her way home and we chatted for a bit. Says she will get back me to today if she is free or not next wed. I asked her about her day (she loves to talk/complain about work and working with idiots) so I let her vent it out. She then said at lease we have Saturday to look forward to. I agreed and ended the convo with "lets catch up during the week"
> 
> Was planning on sending a text mid day with a funny pic about working with idiots (maybe tomorrow). Then nothing else unless until Friday. Friday would be just confirming logistics for sat.
> 
> Hows this sound to everyone?


:smthumbup: Perfect.



unbe said:


> Ok, so CEO reached out (fitting nickname IMO) and confirmed she is available for Wednesday. I then hit her with the reason and she is super excited.
> 
> Also sent a funny pic reg idiot co-workers which she responded too....
> 
> Think I got the game plan, need to stick with it now. We are heading in the right direction


You got this OP, well done


----------



## unbe

Question:

exchanged good night texts last night then good morning texts and she expanded on how her day was going...I was going to reply in kind and end it with a 'thinking of you"

yea or nay?


----------



## unbe

unbe said:


> Question:
> 
> exchanged good night texts last night then good morning texts and she expanded on how her day was going...I was going to reply in kind and end it with a 'thinking of you"
> 
> yea or nay?


Went for it....

Exact words.


Addressed her comment about work then....

"Ive been thinking about you. Theres this one country sound that keeps coming on and it reminds me of you"

Got a response....

"Hahaha. Send me the name of the song, I want to hear it"

Dont love the Hahaha....


----------



## Shoto1984

GB McKenna said:


> *cultivate other women*


This. You focus on her when she indicates she wants to focus on you. (assuming you want that) You were kinda dating someone else when you started talking to her so keep the trend. It will keep your head in the right place (no pun). Nothing wrong with letting the pot simmer for awhile.


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## Shoto1984

It's a shame that dating can still be so "high school" but it is what it is. I call it the "emotional scarcity game" ie the person who cares the least has the power. I'm sure we've all experienced it at some point.


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## unbe

Update:

I sent the song, she responded very well to it. Said it was perfect song to fall asleep to.

Playing the game, light texting. 1:1 ratio...

I did call her last night to firm up plans for Sat. During the call she revealed some more very very personal facts about herself which was a clear risk take on her behalf. Her walls are for sure coming down. This is the first time I initiated a call since we have been speaking, we spoke for about 45 min. She acknowledged the fact and thanked me for calling. 

She also re-confirmed that tomorrow we would be spending the entire day together and will be going back to her house to 'chill'. 

Sundays update should be interesting....wish me luck!


----------



## chillymorn

play hard to get. go out with your friends or do your hobby some so she knows you got a life other than sweet nothins with her all day.


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## unbe

Update:

So plans for the day where to head to the game, then she asked if I would go to Home Depot with her and help her out with a few things there. Afterwards we would head back to her place and chill. 

Before I begin there is an interesting dynamic at play. She has a roommate who is her best friends cousin (guy) and is apparently a fck up. He is around 10 yrs younger than her. 


Pick her up and we are off to the game. During the drive she is engaged but also on the phone, something was going on with her brother and she was concerned- understandably.

We get to the game, having a good time. Some parts of silence but not awkward, just kinda taking it all in. Things to note, I kissed hello, no hand holding.....

The game was OK...maybe not the best place for a date but I enjoyed being at the park. She seemed to as well.

We head off to HD, she was very excited to go for some reason...lol

Anyway we are there picking up some sht, she wanted to get some flowers to plant. Little did I know I would be planting these flowers with her (keep in mind I NEVER did this with my X, not once...)

We get back to her house, its around 6. She wanted to plant them before it got dark so we did... It was an interesting feeling for me, kinda like we were an old couple that have known each other for years. It felt kind nice to do something NORMAL

After we are done with decide to sit on the couch and watch some TV. She tells me the roomate should be home any moment. I am getting the sense she either

1- Wants me to go
2- Is sht testing me to see how I react

I pretened like I didnt hear it and get comfortable..

She sits on the other side of the couch....oh hell no!!!

I pull her into me, she immediately comes over and lays on my chest, puts her hand on my stomach. She looks at me and we start kissing...

This goes on for about 20 minutes...it does not progress from here however she is clearly into it as am I. She has no poker face, she is falling for me.

We had some country music playing in the background, she had gotten up to do something ( i think go to the bathroom I dont really remeber). 

A song I love comes on, I grab her and start to dance with her in the living room. Her inner monologue wasnt working a the time and she says "really?"- she probably is getting a sense this this may be too good to be true.

As we are dancing we start to kiss again until the song is over. I then say "It would have been a great tragedy if we never met" (we were very close to this not happening). She agrees and says "Everything happens for a reason, the universe wouldn't have allowed that"

Anyway, back on the couch...some more cuddling till the movie ends. 

We have plans for Wednesday to go the hockey game. I ask her how her week looks, we also make plans for Sat. She will be coming to my house and Ill cook (knowing this I decided there is really no reason to push anything further here). Her roommate is on his way home, I decide it time to leave. Its around 9....

We say goodnight a few times...she is leaning in for kisses, pulling me in close. Thanks me for an amazing day. I am very tempted to ask her to be exclusive but decide against it. Again, I dont think she is seeing anyone else and I still am although I am very close to cutting everyone else off. 

During the night she keeps mentioning how she wants to meet my friends, family. I feel we are going to progress to this naturally and maybe the conversation isn't even necessary. Its more for me than for us....

Im driving home shes texting me some funny sht...I text her "Today was a lot of fun, enjoy the rest of your night sweetie. BTW, I can definitely get used to you laying on my chest ".....this does not get a reply nor have I heard anything this morning.

Overall I give it an 8 outta 10....

Thoughts?


----------



## Betrayedone

You need to get away from this high school stuff and get out there and find some other people to occupy your time. You are quite likely to end up hurt by this woman. I noticed a few other people giving you good advice here and you just seem to ignore them. You are asking for advice but are not taking it. Cultivate other relationships or you are going to get burned!


----------



## unbe

Betrayedone said:


> You need to get away from this high school stuff and get out there and find some other people to occupy your time. You are quite likely to end up hurt by this woman. I noticed a few other people giving you good advice here and you just seem to ignore them. You are asking for advice but are not taking it. Cultivate other relationships or you are going to get burned!


In other words....back off?


----------



## Betrayedone

unbe said:


> In other words....back off?


Ahhh, yes.


----------



## unbe

Betrayedone said:


> You need to get away from this high school stuff and get out there and find some other people to occupy your time. You are quite likely to end up hurt by this woman. I noticed a few other people giving you good advice here and you just seem to ignore them. You are asking for advice but are not taking it. Cultivate other relationships or you are going to get burned!


I also agree...this is very high school ish...that was the last time I actually dated...Scary


----------



## Marc878

Hand holding is a big thing for most women.

Just do it.


----------



## jdesey

I have been thru all of this. Text? Not text? Call? What to do? 
I think a lot of it we can come across as wuss bags. I highly recommend you go get into Corey Wayne's stuff on you tube. He helped me a lot. 

When I was able to act like a man things worked. A friend of mine has a great saying "there's only room for one woman in a relationship"

Basically she's just being a woman. We expect them to act like men. Act with logic. Never gonna happen.


----------



## unbe

jdesey said:


> I have been thru all of this. Text? Not text? Call? What to do?
> I think a lot of it we can come across as wuss bags. I highly recommend you go get into Corey Wayne's stuff on you tube. He helped me a lot.
> 
> When I was able to act like a man things worked. A friend of mine has a great saying "there's only room for one woman in a relationship"
> 
> Basically she's just being a woman. We expect them to act like men. Act with logic. Never gonna happen.


Thanks for this...I will def look into these videos.

The text Sat night went unanswered.

No communication all day

Sent a text late last night, hope you had a good day. just wanted to say goodnight...so far that has gone unanswered. 

Guess Ill be looking for a new date to the hockey game lol

Onto the next...

Just goes to show you...peoples reality's are so different. Here you have my view which took that date as a great day, mostly positive signs with the exception of the roommate situation. Clearly her view was not the same.


----------



## unbe

Update: Shes alive

"Hey good morning!! Saturday was a blast. Thank u again for the help with the flowers! They are looking great back there. Have a great day!"

No mention of why she was a ghost yesterday...

No response to my text from Sat night...

This is a pattern, she clearly doesnt like affection through text. I got the message!

Will respond but not anytime soon


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> Update: Shes alive
> 
> "Hey good morning!! Saturday was a blast. Thank u again for the help with the flowers! They are looking great back there. Have a great day!"
> 
> No mention of why she was a ghost yesterday...
> 
> No response to my text from Sat night...
> 
> This is a pattern, she clearly doesnt like affection through text. I got the message!
> 
> Will respond but not anytime soon


I think she is playing games. This is not necessarily a bad thing. She may not want to appear too eager, so she doesn't answer you. On the other hand, she may be a flake. You don't know at this point, but will have to make that determination and I wouldn't wait too long to figure that one out.
If I were dating and my date was constantly on his phone, I would mention something about it and if he continued, I wouldn't keep dating him.
I regularly go out with friends for coffee or a meal. We are all moms and some of us also have careers, so we have our phones handy and will reply to our kids or an important business call when necessary, but we are not constantly watching our phones or carrying on conversations with other people while we are also supposed to be enjoying each other's company. It's just rude to do that.
Like some others here, I also think she has another man that she is considering. There is no reason to believe that she isn't dating others. In fact, it looks like she is. Don't burn any bridges with the other women you are seeing.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> I think she is playing games. This is not necessarily a bad thing. She may not want to appear too eager, so she doesn't answer you. On the other hand, she may be a flake. You don't know at this point, but will have to make that determination and I wouldn't wait too long to figure that one out.
> If I were dating and my date was constantly on his phone, I would mention something about it and if he continued, I wouldn't keep dating him.
> I regularly go out with friends for coffee or a meal. We are all moms and some of us also have careers, so we have our phones handy and will reply to our kids or an important business call when necessary, but we are not constantly watching our phones or carrying on conversations with other people while we are also supposed to be enjoying each other's company. It's just rude to do that.
> Like some others here, I also think she has another man that she is considering. There is no reason to believe that she isn't dating others. In fact, it looks like she is. Don't burn any bridges with the other women you are seeing.


She is clearly playing games. Assuming you are correct that she is seeing another guy then basically everything she has been telling me has been a lie. If that is the case, its time to cut bait.

The games I can handle, if its just a not wanna look to eager game. Any other game, I am too old and too tired for the sht.


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> She is clearly playing games. Assuming you are correct that she is seeing another guy then basically everything she has been telling me has been a lie. If that is the case, its time to cut bait.
> 
> The games I can handle, if its just a not wanna look to eager game. Any other game, I am too old and too tired for the sht.


I've been following your thread, but don't remember her saying she wasn't seeing anyone else. It looks like she is. I don't think that's a bad thing unless she is lying about it, then yeah, that's a problem.

I agree that not wanting to look overly eager is a good thing. Heck, that's what you've been doing. lol But if she's just jerking you around, you sure don't have time for that.


----------



## BetrayedDad

unbe said:


> 1- How do I continue conversation during this upcoming week (this is what I struggle with mostly, over-eagerness). WITHOUT LOOKING TO NEEDY


Give a tiny bit less than you get... always. She texts you 5 times a day you text 4. Never initiate unless she initiated last time. Never text more than once if last text was unanswered. If she take 30 mins to reply you take 45. Modulate your frequency to hers. If she picks it up then you can if she slows it down go slower. You won't ever have to worry about looking needy if you do this.

Honestly, I've been guilty too about ignoring texts. That phone is glued to her hands. However, its mentally exhausting to always "be on" and sometimes I wait to text cause I want to make sure I give my reply some sincere thought. Mental laziness I guess. I wouldn't see to much into that as the relationship is still fairly new and she's probably still trying to impress you. 



unbe said:


> 2- Opinions on her mindset and am I reading this correctly.


I think so for the most part. I think she just wants to take it slow and not rush into a serious relationship. That's the vibe I get which is reasonable. Don't over think it. Like I said, go at her pace and let HER set the tone. Don't keep asking HER out. Wait for her to ask you. Make her take the initiative. I agree with others, I think you are doing a little too much chasing. Scale it back a bit. Don't be so "available". 

Get busy in your real life and try to fit her in your schedule rather than move your schedule around just for her. Women can SMELL neediness on a man like a shark smells blood. Mitigate that by not throwing all you eggs in this basket and treat it more casually. There's plenty of other women out there. Act like it. You're as much of a prize as she is. Good Luck.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> I've been following your thread, but don't remember her saying she wasn't seeing anyone else. It looks like she is. I don't think that's a bad thing unless she is lying about it, then yeah, that's a problem.
> 
> I agree that not wanting to look overly eager is a good thing. Heck, that's what you've been doing. lol But if she's just jerking you around, you sure don't have time for that.


I agree with the statement I have been looking overly eager. However, this is a reaction based on HER actions when we are together. Then when we are apart, its back to the games and walls. I then find myself retreating which isnt a good game plan. She never said she wasnt dating. What she does say is how busy she is with life and lists out her days and what shes doing no of which consists of dating.

This is now twice shes done this...I am going to get back to the original game plan of 1:1, being less available then she is, caring less that she does. 

I do have a date tonight, second date. Lets see how shes goes.


----------



## unbe

BetrayedDad said:


> Give a tiny bit less than you get... always. She texts you 5 times a day you text 4. Never initiate unless she initiated last time. Never text more than once if last text was unanswered. If she take 30 mins to reply you take 45. Modulate your frequency to hers. If she picks it up then you can if she slows it down go slower. You won't ever have to worry about looking needy if you do this.
> 
> Honestly, I've been guilty too about ignoring texts. That phone is glued to her hands. However, its mentally exhausting to always "be on" and sometimes I wait to text cause I want to make sure I give my reply some sincere thought. Mental laziness I guess. I wouldn't see to much into that as the relationship is still fairly new and she's probably still trying to impress you.
> 
> 
> 
> I think so for the most part. I think she just wants to take it slow and not rush into a serious relationship. That's the vibe I get which is reasonable. Don't over think it. Like I said, go at her pace and let HER set the tone. Don't keep asking HER out. Wait for her to ask you. Make her take the initiative. I agree with others, I think you are doing a little too much chasing. Scale it back a bit. Don't be so "available".
> 
> Get busy in your real life and try to fit her in your schedule rather than move your schedule around just for her. Women can SMELL neediness on a man like a shark smells blood. Mitigate that by not throwing all you eggs in this basket and treat it more casually. There's plenty of other women out there. Act like it. You're as much of a prize as she is. Good Luck.


Seriously, thanks for this. Great advice!

My response to her text will be sometime tomorrow.....


----------



## unbe

Update:

Something clicking in me last night.....All of this over-examination is caused by my own insecurities. Not insecurities in this relationship, insecurities in general.

I am not giving myself enough credit/value and am driving myself crazy worrying if SHE likes ME.

F that!!! It stops today

Me wanting to "label" this is due to me being insecure, its serves no other purpose.

Me wanting responses when I put myself out there is again looking for reassurances due to being insecure. 

This sht stops now....

If I dont value myself, how can I expect anyone else too.

No more chasing...

No more over-anaylizing...

No more sweating a stupid label that means NOTHING

Its time for me to be a man and MAN THE F UP

Time to flip the script on this. Im not saying im going to be a dck, im saying its time to care LESS. Reach out LESS. Worry LESS. 

Lets bag this bunny with confidence and swagger.


----------



## Betrayedone

Someone spike their Wheaties with locoweed this morning? Good for you......now live what you have just said.


----------



## Herschel

Just read this thread for the first time, and I swear it's the screen play to a new romcom coming out next year. That is actually a compliment to your writing style.

Man, I hate dating. I hate wondering if she is into me like I am into her and I hate knowing I am not into her as she is into me. When I was single, I never dated more than 1 woman at a time, and if she was dating another guy, then, let me know if/when that doesn't work out.


----------



## unbe

Herschel said:


> Just read this thread for the first time, and I swear it's the screen play to a new romcom coming out next year. That is actually a compliment to your writing style.
> 
> Man, I hate dating. I hate wondering if she is into me like I am into her and I hate knowing I am not into her as she is into me. When I was single, I never dated more than 1 woman at a time, and if she was dating another guy, then, let me know if/when that doesn't work out.


I feel you brother....

This is a mindset. Its hard to get out of it, always wondering if you are good enough, etc..

I went through a sham of a marriage where my X cheated on me almost the entire time 6 out of the 7 years. Nothing shakes confidence like that.

Heres the thing...

Worrying about whether or not someone likes you does YOU no good. You can do anything to change/alter thier thought process.

All YOU can do is be the best YOU. This is to anyone reading this.

My situation...if I take myself out of it emotionally and look logically at it.

Facts:

I have been on 5 dates with her...clearly there is interest- ACT
When we kiss, I can literally see her melting and falling for me- ACT
When we are together, the walls come down. Plating flowers with a guy is very emotional to a women- ACT

ACTS SPEAK LOUDER THAT WORDS....LIVE BY THIS!!!!

What do I have to be worried about? The fact that she doesn't text me meaningless sht during the day. I should be thanking god she doesn't!!!

She goes into hiding/retreat mode when we aren't together. Why? WHO CARES WHY!!! Maybe shes busy and cant mulit-task (she cant at all btw). Maybe her friends are telling her not to look desperate (almost a certainty). Maybe shes seeing someone else (again, nothing that concerns me RIGHT NOW)- None of this I can do anything about. So instead of sweating it....Im deciding to dust it off and go on with my life. 

The biggest mistake I made so far is cutting out other women. I did this anticipating a relationship...DUMB MOVE. Anticipation only brings anxiety and feelings of insecurity. DONE WITH THAT

So where do I stand now? I have a hockey game tomorrow night, I am going with her. 

Saturday she is coming by the house, already said she cant wait for it.

Has mentioned numerous times she cant wait to meet my friends.

Honestly, what more can I ask at THIS POINT. 

Once I can get it through my head that I am a catch, women aren't going to stand a chance. That goes for anyone! Guess what, that time is almost here....


----------



## unbe

Annnnnd they can sense this sht I swear (her to me)

"Hey hey. Just thinking of you. Hope you are having a great day!"

This is the 1st time she has shown any emotion through text....


----------



## jdesey

Dude that's gold. She's into you. That text from her is huge. Stop over thinking all this. She's commited to dates and wants to meet your friends. 
This is after 5 dates. Trust me I know precisely what it looks like when a woman is totally not into a guy and this is not it. Just think what you would do if you were totally on interested. It doesn't look like what she's doing at all


----------



## unbe

Update:

Hockey game was an amazing night...we had a ball. Laughed, rooted hard. Went nuts....great night. 

She was still on the phone all night. This is clearly her personality. What bothers me is I see her instatt repsonding to everyone else and she isnt like that with me. Part of the game I assume...A game that is growing tiresome.

Then a moment of weakness on my part....Could be the end. 

Unbe: "Hey, I hope you got in ok. You should know that I am totally into you. Seeing you tonight, having so much and just genuinely awesome reinforced what I already suspected. That I am really excited to see how far we can take this, I do not want to date anyone else and I only want to be with you. I would have liked to say this in person to you tonight but just couldn't find the right moment"

CEO (30 minutes later): Hey, yup I got home a lil bit ago. Thank you for another great night. Despite the loss it was an awesome time together. You sure gave me a lot to think about! Lets talk tomorrow after work. Have a good night 

Flame away...........

To anyone reading, this is an example of what NOT to do.


----------



## jdesey

I won't flame you over your comment. But I'm going to tell you that the cell phone thing is not cool. I had a girlfriend back in 2011 and this is exactly what was going on. Exactly what broke us up. She never ever got it and that it was a problem that she was on her cell phone constantly when we were together. In the end she just wasn't good girlfriend material. She use the excuse that she had to have her cell phone handy if her son needed her which was a complete joke. I try talking to her and I put my foot down but when she would be up in the middle of the night texting people while we are in bad that was the end of it. When this woman does that to you it's like she's with you but not with you. Do you understand that? I'm sure that you knew


----------



## unbe

jdesey said:


> I won't flame you over your comment. But I'm going to tell you that the cell phone thing is not cool. I had a girlfriend back in 2011 and this is exactly what was going on. Exactly what broke us up. She never ever got it and that it was a problem that she was on her cell phone constantly when we were together. In the end she just wasn't good girlfriend material. She use the excuse that she had to have her cell phone handy if her son needed her which was a complete joke. I try talking to her and I put my foot down but when she would be up in the middle of the night texting people while we are in bad that was the end of it. When this woman does that to you it's like she's with you but not with you. Do you understand that? I'm sure that you knew


I hear ya. Its so bad she literally cant carry a conversation with me as she is texting back. The fact that its constant means we can never really have a conversation. Constant starts and stops, starting over from the beginning. 

That was part of the reason I sent that text, What do I have to lose at this point? If she says shes out (which is what I expect to happen) what am I losing?? If she says yes, then I can progress that into what more i need from her in order to make this work. 

Crickets all day today.....clocks ticking


----------



## jdesey

Well I'm sure the most annoying part is that she will instantly text back friends and such but takes forever to get back to you. The ex-girlfriend I mention was exactly the same. 
The thing is that when I told her specifically that this was a problem it was like I was a Martian and was talking a completely foreign language. She just didn't get it and saw no issue 
So don't be surprised if you get the same type of response. Some people are just flat out rude and don't get it


----------



## Cynthia

Why would you rather be with this woman than one of the other women you have been dating who give you their full attention? Why would you want to commit yourself to a woman when you don't have her full attention when together and she is slow in returning your texts?

And sending her a text rather than talking to her in person, because you cannot get her full attention in person? That is a very bad sign.

It may be awkward, but you can change your mind on her. I'd let her know the phone issue is bothering you and see what happens.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> Why would you rather be with this woman than one of the other women you have been dating who give you their full attention? Why would you want to commit yourself to a woman when you don't have her full attention when together and she is slow in returning your texts?
> 
> And sending her a text rather than talking to her in person, because you cannot get her full attention in person? That is a very bad sign.
> 
> It may be awkward, but you can change your mind on her. I'd let her know the phone issue is bothering you and see what happens.


These are all very valid questions to which I have no answers for. Maybe its the old wanting what you cant have.

I can tell you that when she is in the moment, its great. We have a ton in common and the sparks are there. 

Honestly this is all going to be a moot point, I haven't heard from her all day and Im fully expecting for her to next me later on. Its more of a lesson to learn from at this point.

I have to ask myself and get an answer to this quick...

Why would I want to be with someone who doesn't provide any assurance which there SO is spinning in the wind? This above all is a clear indication of what I should expect later. 

She must know I am going through some anguish with all of this and to not reach out at all is almost masochistic...


----------



## unbe

Update:

CEO: "Hey. Insane day. Felt horrible again in the morning.(allergies) I'll have to figure out a medicine routine for this nonsense. Im heading to the gym and will be out late. Call u on my way home. Hope you had a great day!"

no idea what to make of this....


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> Update:
> 
> CEO: "Hey. Insane day. Felt horrible again in the morning.(allergies) I'll have to figure out a medicine routine for this nonsense. Im heading to the gym and will be out late. Call u on my way home. Hope you had a great day!"
> 
> no idea what to make of this....


She has you on a string. This is not a good place to be. At this point she has all the power in the relationship. Exactly what you were hoping to avoid. You might want to reconsider your interest or back way off.

"I spoke too soon," can be a useful phrase for these types of situations. Followed by, "I have some serious reservations."


----------



## jdesey

Don't respond. Go dark. She will come chasing you.


----------



## chillymorn

how many dates? no nookie, on phone while shes with you! plays silly game with not texting back.

I'd be out of there instead of wasting my money and time.


----------



## syhoybenden

You are barking up the wrong tree.

She just wants you in her orbit.


----------



## unbe

Update:

So she called around 11 last night. She said the reason why she was so quite was because her sponsor told her on Monday (shes been in AA for 4 months now) that she shouldn't start any new relationships within the first year of soberity. She didnt know how to tell me at the game but once I sent the text to her she new she had to come out with it.

I played nice and empathized with her...wished her well and hung up the phone.

Do I believe this reason....HELL NO.

It was an easy out for her and she took it IMO

Then this morning i get a text from her saying how sad she is about all of this and hopes we can remain cool.- Orbit attempt!

Sorry, I am way to good to be anyone's backup. Onto the next...whenever that may be


What I need to figure out is this...

1- Why was I willing to get into a R with a recovering alch
2- Why was I willing to accept the roomate situation
3- Why was I willing to accept being treated like an A$$ with the phone

I have one word that sums this up...CODEPENDENCY

Until I get that under control, Im doomed to repeat my previous mistakes.


----------



## syhoybenden

Now that you're a little more self aware, then maybe doomed not so much.


----------



## arbitrator

*Alcohol addiction? Seems like a huge red flag ~ Given that, I really think that I'd be taking my romantic search elsewhere!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbe

arbitrator said:


> *Alcohol addiction? Seems like a huge red flag ~ Given that, I really think that I'd be taking my romantic search elsewhere!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


To a normal healthy person its a huge red flag.

To a codependent like myself, its like honey to a bee.


----------



## Cynthia

I don't recall you mentioning that she is an alcoholic. And she's only four months into recovery. She's barely scratched the surface of recovery. It is true that she should not be in a relationship. No wonder she was sending you mixed signals. Good grief. I'm so glad you found this out now instead of a few months down the road. Wow.

Have you read "Codependent No More," by Melody Beattie and "Facing Codependence," by Pia Melody?
http://smile.amazon.com/Codependent...461339480&sr=1-1&keywords=codependent+no+more

http://smile.amazon.com/Facing-Code...1&keywords=facing+codependence+by+pia+mellody

If you are struggling with codependency, I highly recommend both of these books.

I think both things are true. I think her sponsor really did tell her no relationships and I think she is trying to keep you in her orbit. She seems to be trying to find a way around what she needs to do. This shows that she is not doing well in her recovery either. She is not good relationship material now or for a long time in the future, if ever.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> I don't recall you mentioning that she is an alcoholic. And she's only four months into recovery. She's barely scratched the surface of recovery. It is true that she should not be in a relationship. No wonder she was sending you mixed signals. Good grief. I'm so glad you found this out now instead of a few months down the road. Wow.
> 
> Have you read "Codependent No More," by Melody Beattie and "Facing Codependence," by Pia Melody?
> http://smile.amazon.com/Codependent...461339480&sr=1-1&keywords=codependent+no+more
> 
> Facing Codependence: What It Is, Where It Comes from, How It Sabotages Our Lives: Pia Mellody, Andrea Wells Miller, J. Keith Miller: 9780062505897: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> If you are struggling with codependency, I highly recommend both of these books.
> 
> I think both things are true. I think her sponsor really did tell her no relationships and I think she is trying to keep you in her orbit. She seems to be trying to find a way around what she needs to do. This shows that she is not doing well in her recovery either. She is not good relationship material now or for a long time in the future, if ever.


Yea I have read CDNM and am still struggling with the concepts on how to change. I knew she was in AA about 2 weeks ago...

Didnt matter to me...its scary but the only thing that really bothered me about all of this was the phone thing.


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> Yea I have read CDNM and am still struggling with the concepts on how to change. I knew she was in AA about 2 weeks ago...
> 
> Didnt matter to me...its scary but the only thing that really bothered me about all of this was the phone thing.


"Facing Codependence" should help you understand what things look like when they are healthy. That is why I always recommend reading, "Codependent No More," first followed immediately by, "Facing Codependence."
Not only were you not bothered by the alcoholism, but you didn't think the phone thing was a deal breaker either. 
Consider that you may not be ready for a relationship right now either. Perhaps you should continue dating many women and learning about what is healthy and what is not. You can enjoy meeting new people and developing casual relationships, then move into something more serious when you are ready.


----------



## unbe

More from CEO (I did not reply to prev text)

"Things were moving fast, despite any of the AA rule nonsense. I think we should let it cool off, not keep pace and have me over tomorrow. I really appreciate that you were open about your feelings with me, and to be honest this really sucks from my perspective too. I enjoyed every minute we have spent together. Lets just chill until my sponsor is back from vacation and I can talk thought this with her more. We sure did hit it right off. I cant believe how easy things have been btw us...which prob has something to do with why we are moving so fast. We will stay in touch, and I know, like you said, there must be a plan at work here. What will be will be"

I replied:

This makes a lot of sense. Lets not continue to rehash this, if you ever want to talk I'm here to listen.


----------



## Cynthia

Run.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> Run.


What other flags am I not seeing here?


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> What other flags am I not seeing here?


If you get into a relationship with her, it is doomed. She is not following her sponsor's wise counsel. She is barely into a program for alcoholism. She is on her phone, rather than giving you her full attention, when on dates. Despite constantly watching her phone when with you, she does not answer you.
I really think she is playing games and is not serious about her recovery. She is not setting healthy boundaries in her life, as evidenced by the above. You say you have codependency issues. That last thing you need is to get involved with an alcoholic. Why would you even consider such a thing? 
You are letting your emotions rule you. I also have a hunch that you felt you were really close to having sex with her and now you won't be. So you are probably feeling sexually frustrated as well. This is a recipe for disaster.
Thus my previous advice: Run. Fast. Far.
It would be wise to tell her that you realize that you are interfering with her recovery, all the best, nice to know you, I will no longer be in contact with you. Block her from your phone. Immediately call up a couple of the other women you were seeing and set up some dates. But nothing serious. That's why you keep it casual and date several women for mutual enjoyment.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> If you get into a relationship with her, it is doomed. She is not following her sponsor's wise counsel. She is barely into a program for alcoholism. She is on her phone, rather than giving you her full attention, when on dates. Despite constantly watching her phone when with you, she does not answer you.
> I really think she is playing games and is not serious about her recovery. She is not setting healthy boundaries in her life, as evidenced by the above. You say you have codependency issues. That last thing you need is to get involved with an alcoholic. Why would you even consider such a thing?
> You are letting your emotions rule you. I also have a hunch that you felt you were really close to having sex with her and now you won't be. So you are probably feeling sexually frustrated as well. This is a recipe for disaster.
> Thus my previous advice: Run. Fast. Far.
> It would be wise to tell her that you realize that you are interfering with her recovery, all the best, nice to know you, I will no longer be in contact with you. Block her from your phone. Immediately call up a couple of the other women you were seeing and set up some dates. But nothing serious. That's why you keep it casual and date several women for mutual enjoyment.


Thank you for the feedback. To answer your question:

That last thing you need is to get involved with an alcoholic. Why would you even consider such a thing? 

The answer is...Because I am a co-dependent!!!


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> Thank you for the feedback. To answer your question:
> 
> That last thing you need is to get involved with an alcoholic. Why would you even consider such a thing?
> 
> The answer is...Because I am a co-dependent!!!


Okay, but don't let that define you. You know in your head that you cannot have a healthy relationship with someone who is an alcoholic, so you purposefully avoid those relationships. Just say no and move on.


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## jdesey

I have been in AA for 30 years and that 12 months no relationship advice is pretty much the gospel. It still doesn't excuse her behavior. Run! Run away! She's gonna have a hard enough time. You don't want any part of it. I have never dated a woman in program.


----------



## unbe

jdesey said:


> I have been in AA for 30 years and that 12 months no relationship advice is pretty much the gospel. It still doesn't excuse her behavior. Run! Run away! She's gonna have a hard enough time. You don't want any part of it. I have never dated a woman in program.


Thanks for the advice....I will be taking it and running the other way. 

Now granted the decision to end it was hers and I'm kinda being forced to run away. 

I hope that at some point in the future I will be strong enough to make that decision on my own. Its not that I didn't see the signs this time, its that I chose to ignore them.


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> Thanks for the advice....I will be taking it and running the other way.
> 
> Now granted the decision to end it was hers and I'm kinda being forced to run away.
> 
> I hope that at some point in the future I will be strong enough to make that decision on my own. Its not that I didn't see the signs this time, its that I chose to ignore them.


From what you've said, it sounds like she would like to keep you on a string. Don't be surprised if she continues to contact you. If she does, the healthy thing to do would be to cut her loose. I posted some suggestions earlier on examples of how to do this.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> From what you've said, it sounds like she would like to keep you on a string. Don't be surprised if she continues to contact you. If she does, the healthy thing to do would be to cut her loose. I posted some suggestions earlier on examples of how to do this.


Thanks. I am starting to feel that she was just using me. However, it is for the best that she is gone for sure!


----------



## Satya

She's not that into you. 

How can she know what she wants when she's still healing? Her focus should not be on dating. 

She was probably bored. You were convenient and kept in orbit until she wanted to send distress calls. Then you'd come flying in at warp speed. 

Learn from the experience and move on.


----------



## unbe

You guys seem to be dead on with this one. Shes lurking still...sending me pics of her trip. Reaching out talking about her day. A few days ago she had texted that she wanted to talk about things and would call me when should could (shes been traveling for work all week came back last night), I havent gotten that phone call yet. Instead I have been getting texts about what shes doing during the day...just small talk really. Not sure what to make of that. Not sure if I should mention it. Just really unsure about alot of this. 

To be honest its kinda messing with my head. If she just ended it and never reached out I would be over this already. This is 100x worse IMO.


----------



## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> Thank you for the feedback. To answer your question:
> 
> That last thing you need is to get involved with an alcoholic. Why would you even consider such a thing?
> 
> The answer is...Because I am a co-dependent!!!


Imagine a person. Now imagine that person really likes oranges. And you want them to be happy. So you give that person lots of oranges and that cheers you up because you want them to be happy.

Except, really, they do not like oranges at all. You just think they do and will not have them defined in any other way.

Sorry for being obscure. Here is another example.
Imagine a person. Imagine that you are that person. Now imagine that person really likes co-dependent relationships. And you want that person to be happy. So you give them lots of co-dependent relationships and that cheers you up because you want them to be happy.

Getting what you think will make you happy does give you a thrill initially. But it will not last as it is not actually true. You might say that you are actually co-dependent, but you are not really. After all, if you were not co-dependent, you would still be you. However, if you think that you have to be in a co-dependent relationship to feel secure, then you will feel secure if you are not in one. It is actually a silly, self-reinforcing thought. S strong thought, but just a thought and no more.

It might take time to let it go, but all you actually have to do is stop holding on to a thought that is making you miserable.

Does this make sense?


----------



## Mr The Other

Unbe, I was there. I shook of co-dependency by the spiritual method, which is why I talk in riddles a little!

I was chatting with a girl with a very smooth talking man. She was very cold to him and he predicted a couple of things and I suspect he was right, that she had been abused by her brother. The funny thing is, I saw attainability in that emotional weakness. If I had been desperate, it would have been like a vampire scenting blood.


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> You guys seem to be dead on with this one. Shes lurking still...sending me pics of her trip. Reaching out talking about her day. A few days ago she had texted that she wanted to talk about things and would call me when should could (shes been traveling for work all week came back last night), I havent gotten that phone call yet. Instead I have been getting texts about what shes doing during the day...just small talk really. Not sure what to make of that. Not sure if I should mention it. Just really unsure about alot of this.
> 
> To be honest its kinda messing with my head. If she just ended it and never reached out I would be over this already. This is 100x worse IMO.


Why are you leaving your future in someone else's hands? You don't need this. You are perfectly capable of ending it right now. Or do you want to get involved with an alcoholic who says she is in recovery, but she's not following the method of recovery she has chosen? She is not in recovery if she's not walking the path to recovery.

As I suggested earlier: Run.

That means sending her a text and telling her that it's been fun, but now it's over and you are moving on. Thanks, but no thanks. Then block her.


----------



## iskranetwork

If you don't mind I would like to suggest you talk to this man he is really good!! I know that he can help you to be a man you wanted to be. https://www.facebook.com/savemarriagecentral0fficial/ Save My Marriage-ts - Save Marriage Central


----------



## unbe

Round two:

One of the girls that was around weve been hanging out a bit more. Very cool girl, down to earth, no major flags to speak of until today.

Weve been seeing each other for about a month, been out 4 times. Havent slept toghther yet.

Mentions today that an old fling has been hitting her up. She hasnt slept with him since Jan but hes trying to orbit back in.

She was saying it was bothering her today and she didnt know what to do because hes a good firend also and also a reference, shes looking for a new job.

My first reaction was, I cant give you any advice really. Im kinda biased.

Then I gave it some thought and decided to just tell her exactly how I feel and not tip toe.

I called her back:

Unbe: Look, what you said earlier about this guy. I have to tell you what I think.

#2: Ok.

Unbe: We've been hanging out and seem to get along great. I can see a future for us if things keeping going this way. I would never tell you not to hang out with a friend but I can tell you if your planning on hanging out with this guy it would make me feel uncomfortable. I am currently not sleeping with anybody else and I really want to see where this goes. 

#2: It would make me feel uncomfortable as well. I feel the same way, I really like the way things are going also. Im sorry I had mentioned this to you.

Unbe: Dont be. I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to tell me. Ill see you later tonight.

#2: Ok, sounds good. 


Thoughts?


----------



## Herschel

Sounds good, except...who knows what the **** somebody else is thinking...


----------



## Cynthia

I think you handled it fine. You set a boundary and you did it calmly and without sounding needy.


----------



## unbe

Ok so we hung out tonight, she outlined what is going on in her head. 

Basically she told me that she feels bad about starting a relationship with me because she can bring anything to the table. (She was laid off about 2 months ago and is still looking for a job, she is clearly depressed by this). She doesnt feel right having me pay for everything. Honestly, I cant tell if this is a blow off or not.

My response was: Look, your going through a rough time right now. I was there last year and someone abandoned me during it, I would never do that to someone else. This is temporary and you will get through it. You do not need to really bring anything to the table at this point other than continuing to be honest and open with me and when we do see each other, have a good time. When you get back on your feet, you can start paying for sht.

She seemed to respond well then started opening up about her x's. Shes very bitter towards them and the last was in December and that was a 4 yr R.

Part of me thinks she is not over her X, her guard is way up (Yes, another one!)

Part of me knows she is really down about being out of work.

Shes a really fun and cool girl though and I do like her...

Should I be walking away from this?


----------



## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> Ok so we hung out tonight, she outlined what is going on in her head.
> 
> Basically she told me that she feels bad about starting a relationship with me because she can bring anything to the table. (She was laid off about 2 months ago and is still looking for a job, she is clearly depressed by this). She doesnt feel right having me pay for everything. Honestly, I cant tell if this is a blow off or not.
> 
> My response was: Look, your going through a rough time right now. I was there last year and someone abandoned me during it, I would never do that to someone else. This is temporary and you will get through it. You do not need to really bring anything to the table at this point other than continuing to be honest and open with me and when we do see each other, have a good time. When you get back on your feet, you can start paying for sht.
> 
> She seemed to respond well then started opening up about her x's. Shes very bitter towards them and the last was in December and that was a 4 yr R.
> 
> Part of me thinks she is not over her X, her guard is way up (Yes, another one!)
> 
> Part of me knows she is really down about being out of work.
> 
> Shes a really fun and cool girl though and I do like her...
> 
> Should I be walking away from this?


You see how meaningful it is to you when she shows you her pain? It creates the feeling of a bond for you. That is co-dependence.

Put it another way: Unbe, I have met a girl, she is not over her ex-, is bitter and unemployed. Should I think of her as good relationship material at the moment?

You both need friends, not committed lovers.


----------



## Cynthia

I think she needs to work through her bitterness in order to move forward.

I don't think bonding through shared pain is codependence. Opening up to each other and sharing who you are is not codependent. Trying to solve it for her is codependent.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket at this point. Enjoy her. Get to know her. Find out if she is growing and wanting to work through her bitterness and how she handles adversity. Be friendly, but do not have sex with her or become exclusive with her.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> I think she needs to work through her bitterness in order to move forward.
> 
> I don't think bonding through shared pain is codependence. Opening up to each other and sharing who you are is not codependent. Trying to solve it for her is codependent.
> 
> Don't put all your eggs in one basket at this point. Enjoy her. Get to know her. Find out if she is growing and wanting to work through her bitterness and how she handles adversity. Be friendly, but do not have sex with her or become exclusive with her.


I have not offered to try and save her in any way. I merely expressed my experiences and what I did to push forward and overcome being down about this.

She expressed she is not ready to purse a sexual R and I am fine with that...I will continue to see other people as well but I find myself giving her priority. Is that wrong?


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> I have not offered to try and save her in any way. I merely expressed my experiences and what I did to push forward and overcome being down about this.
> 
> She expressed she is not ready to purse a sexual R and I am fine with that...I will continue to see other people as well but I find myself giving her priority. Is that wrong?


If she is the priority relationship, fine, just don't tell her that at this point. It sounds to me like you're doing okay. And I don't think you are behaving in a codependent manner.


----------



## unbe

CynthiaDe said:


> If she is the priority relationship, fine, just don't tell her that at this point. It sounds to me like you're doing okay. And I don't think you are behaving in a codependent manner.


My question is, is accepting to be in a R with someone unemployed really something I should be doing at this point? Is that co-dep behavior?


----------



## jdesey

I'm gonna say it again. Go download Corey Wayne's e book. It's like 
$7, it helped me so much. Go watch his 
You tube videos. He has the best dating and 
Relationship advice I've ever come across.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

unbe said:


> My question is, is accepting to be in a R with someone unemployed really something I should be doing at this point? Is that co-dep behavior?


It is not codependent to date someone who is unemployed. It is codependent to try to fix it for them or to tell them what they should be doing or trying to make up for their lack of funds.
If you want to continue to date her, plan dates that do not cost money. It's not good to constantly be spending money on dates anyway. Doing fun things together like playing games, hiking/walking, etc. are all good fun without spending money.


----------



## unbe

Update:

Things are going really well with #2. Shes been initiating future plans talk, I have been just living in the moment which is very hard for me but I realize this has been a flaw in my game.

Went out Monday for a quick dinner.

Wednesday night was her firends birthday at a bar, I was invited by her friend last weekend but didnt take that with much creedence. On Tuesday she had asked if I was coming so we wound up going, closing the bar together and being the last ones to leave. During the night she referred me to as her man and her boyfriend (maybe a flag...)

We had made plans for Friday night. She had asked if it would be ok if she stayed over and we did something Saturday during the day. I said sure...(more on this later)

I am off Thursday and had some running around to do, had no plans to see her. We where chatting during the day and I had asked her what she wanted to do Saturday (i had some ideas but wanted to see if she had anything specific in mind). She mentions how shes not sure if she will stay over, it may be a little to soon. Also, its that time of the month for her. I brushed it off as a non issue, no prob at all. She then had asked if we were still hanging out and I said of course. I had sensed she was a little worried about saying this to me as she thought I may get angry or upset. Anyway, during Thursday I was shopping near her and I asked if she wanted to grab lunch (figured this would show I wasnt upset about it). She had asked if the same friend can come along, I said no problem. We had a nice lunch, and I went about my day.

She texted me later on saying thank you and she couldn't wait for the weekend. I said Anytime and shared the same sentiment about the weekend.

To avoid making the same mistakes, I am still seeing other women and will continue to do so until something is defined here. It will NOT be ME doing this either, I feel this is on her to bring up the subject. Perhaps im being stubborn here... Could use feedback on this. 

Anyway, things are progressing well (maybe a bit to quickly but its not forced so it seems to be ok)...Next update will be after this weekend.


----------



## unbe

So...today shes a little non committal and flaky. Isn't giving me a definite answer about tonight..Do i just make my own plans or sit back?


----------



## unbe

Ok so the original plan was for me to pick her up, we stop at happy hour where he friends where then grab dinner.

She just responded

"Hey Im going to pick up XXX at 4:30. I think you should meet us after work. If you want"

No idea how to respond, if to respond, if to go....


----------



## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> Ok so the original plan was for me to pick her up, we stop at happy hour where he friends where then grab dinner.
> 
> She just responded
> 
> "Hey Im going to pick up XXX at 4:30. I think you should meet us after work. If you want"
> 
> No idea how to respond, if to respond, if to go....


I understand, it is has to second guess yourself. Here are a few questions, is it worth going if she is not there? Would you enjoy it anyway? If so, do something that you would enjoy. What time would suit? Go then. 

If you are not up for it, then decline. But suggest another couple of things that would suit you.


----------



## unbe

Mr The Other said:


> I understand, it is has to second guess yourself. Here are a few questions, is it worth going if she is not there? Would you enjoy it anyway? If so, do something that you would enjoy. What time would suit? Go then.
> 
> If you are not up for it, then decline. But suggest another couple of things that would suit you.


Ok everyone, interesting weekend to say the least. Lets get caught up

Firday I reached out to her and said "Hey, I would love to come and hang out however if youd rather be with the girls thats cool, ill hook up with the guys and well do it another night" She responded with " I want you here, I would love if you came"

So I went, we wound up having a great night with her friends, went to a few different places and I dropped her off around midnight. She was holding onto me during the night, her friend kept referring to me as her boyfriend and one of the guys we were with mentioned to me hows shes really into me. We kissed goodnight (she initiated)

red flag alert: this is the third night in a row we saw this same girl (her firend). Not sure what to make of this quite yet.


Onto Saturday:

I send her a text around noon suggesting I pick her up around 6, we go to her local bar to catch the derby then grab dinner after. She responded ignoring the text completely. We make some small talk then she finally suggests instead of going out she would rather just chill at my place, watch the derby and order in. I agree and said I would pick her up around 5.

Im about 10 min away, she calls me. Asks if I would mind us switching the venue to her firends house instead (same girl). I say I would rather us just have a night to ourselves. She said shes completelty ok with that. Something is off here.....


When I get to her house I said to her, why dont you invite your friend over to my place and we can hang there. She says no thats totally ok, she just felt bad her friend was home alone (shes going through relationship problems with her bf). 


Anyway, we are enroute to my house. She brings up the fact that some guy has been hitting her up trying to get her to hang out. He lives in another state and is aparantley a friend who is trying to be more. Shes like "I dont know what to do, I told him I wasnt interested but he keeps pushing" 

Unbe: "I suggest just stop talking to him."

#2: "but hes my friend, he just wont stop"

Unbe: "Tell him you have a boyfriend, that will get him to stop"

#2: "But that would be a lie"

Ok then....I let it going from there. Strike 1


We get to my house, order dinner and open a bottle of wine. We are chillin out just enjoying each others company. Cuddling a little, nothing crazy. (Keep in mind it is that time of the month and she is clearly not comfortable)

Something to note: she showed up tonight in sweats. Not sure if this plays into the equation or not.


Anyway, we put on a flick. We are close on the couch and shes sleeping on me (granted we did have two bottles of wine). She winds up completely passed out on the couch. Its around 10:00 and I suggest us just going to bed. 

#2: "I am not sure. I dont want to stay over for the wrong reasons. I would only be staying becayse I dont want to go home"

Unbe: "Ok. Lets get you home then"

#2: "There will be plenty of opportunities for me stay the night"

Anyway, we get in the car. She is holding my hand and rubbing my arm. I noticed her staring at me during the drive. I can almost sense shes unsure about me and is still trying to make up her mind. 


We get to her house, she kisses me goodnight. She leaves...

She texts me later asking if I got home ok, to which I respond I did and hope she sleeps well. She responds goodnight.

Take aways:

Correct me if im wrong, but she seems to either be friendzoning me or is just unsure on if I am boyfriend material. In any event my only couse of action at this point is to pull back and continue to explorer what else is out there.

Id love some feedback on my summation as we all the night.


----------



## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> Ok everyone, interesting weekend to say the least. Lets get caught up
> 
> Firday I reached out to her and said "Hey, I would love to come and hang out however if youd rather be with the girls thats cool, ill hook up with the guys and well do it another night" She responded with " I want you here, I would love if you came"
> 
> So I went, we wound up having a great night with her friends, went to a few different places and I dropped her off around midnight. She was holding onto me during the night, her friend kept referring to me as her boyfriend and one of the guys we were with mentioned to me hows shes really into me. We kissed goodnight (she initiated)
> 
> red flag alert: this is the third night in a row we saw this same girl (her firend). Not sure what to make of this quite yet.
> 
> 
> Onto Saturday:
> 
> I send her a text around noon suggesting I pick her up around 6, we go to her local bar to catch the derby then grab dinner after. She responded ignoring the text completely. We make some small talk then she finally suggests instead of going out she would rather just chill at my place, watch the derby and order in. I agree and said I would pick her up around 5.
> 
> Im about 10 min away, she calls me. Asks if I would mind us switching the venue to her firends house instead (same girl). I say I would rather us just have a night to ourselves. She said shes completely ok with that. Something is off here.....
> 
> 
> When I get to her house I said to her, why dont you invite your friend over to my place and we can hang there. She says no thats totally ok, she just felt bad her friend was home alone (shes going through relationship problems with her bf).
> 
> 
> Anyway, we are enroute to my house. She brings up the fact that some guy has been hitting her up trying to get her to hang out. He lives in another state and is aparantley a friend who is trying to be more. Shes like "I dont know what to do, I told him I wasnt interested but he keeps pushing"
> 
> Unbe: "I suggest just stop talking to him."
> 
> #2: "but hes my friend, he just wont stop"
> 
> Unbe: "Tell him you have a boyfriend, that will get him to stop"
> 
> #2: "But that would be a lie"
> 
> Ok then....I let it going from there. Strike 1
> 
> 
> We get to my house, order dinner and open a bottle of wine. We are chillin out just enjoying each others company. Cuddling a little, nothing crazy. (Keep in mind it is that time of the month and she is clearly not comfortable)
> 
> Something to note: she showed up tonight in sweats. Not sure if this plays into the equation or not.
> 
> 
> Anyway, we put on a flick. We are close on the couch and shes sleeping on me (granted we did have two bottles of wine). She winds up completely passed out on the couch. Its around 10:00 and I suggest us just going to bed.
> 
> #2: "I am not sure. I dont want to stay over for the wrong reasons. I would only be staying becayse I dont want to go home"
> 
> Unbe: "Ok. Lets get you home then"
> 
> #2: "There will be plenty of opportunities for me stay the night"
> 
> Anyway, we get in the car. She is holding my hand and rubbing my arm. I noticed her staring at me during the drive. I can almost sense shes unsure about me and is still trying to make up her mind.
> 
> 
> We get to her house, she kisses me goodnight. She leaves...
> 
> She texts me later asking if I got home ok, to which I respond I did and hope she sleeps well. She responds goodnight.
> 
> Take aways:
> 
> Correct me if im wrong, but she seems to either be friendzoning me or is just unsure on if I am boyfriend material. In any event my only course of action at this point is to pull back and continue to explorer what else is out there.
> 
> Id love some feedback on my summation as we all the night.


I have no expertise. My thoughts are that she is keen, but uncertain. Call her out on it. 

She might just be messing you around, so still wants the other guy around. So, perhaps, so you are into her, but in that case she is going to have to make it clear to the other guy that he is not welcome. It might be she is just messing you around, in which case she will find out. It might be she wants to see you make it more of a relationship.


----------



## unbe

Mr The Other said:


> I have no expertise. My thoughts are that she is keen, but uncertain. Call her out on it.
> 
> She might just be messing you around, so still wants the other guy around. So, perhaps, so you are into her, but in that case she is going to have to make it clear to the other guy that he is not welcome. It might be she is just messing you around, in which case she will find out. It might be she wants to see you make it more of a relationship.


Apparently she has already let this guy know there is no shot but hes just being persistent. I am unclear on why she would even mention this to me


----------



## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> Apparently she has already let this guy know there is no shot but hes just being persistent. I am unclear on why she would even mention this to me


A couple of reasons. are possible.
- It was on her mind and she blurted it out.
- She wanted to see how you would react, perhaps you would be possessive
- She wanted you to be possessive


----------



## unbe

Mr The Other said:


> A couple of reasons. are possible.
> - It was on her mind and she blurted it out.
> - She wanted to see how you would react, perhaps you would be possessive
> - She wanted you to be possessive


I thought it was perhaps to smoke out my intentions. My comment about the boyfriend was a away for her to say "so is that what we are". Instead she with the other way...

Im thinking it may be time for the R talk and to just push forward or end it now. Either that or just go dark and see what unfolds


----------



## Miss Independent

unbe said:


> I thought it was perhaps to smoke out my intentions. My comment about the boyfriend was a away for her to say "so is that what we are". Instead she with the other way...
> 
> Im thinking it may be time for the R talk and to just push forward or end it now. Either that or just go dark and see what unfolds




Go dark just like that? If a man goes dark on me, he's history. 

Anyway, she comes across as someone who is into games. My take was that she wanted you to ask her to be her boyfriend. She likes to play games.


----------



## unbe

spinsterdurga said:


> Go dark just like that? If a man goes dark on me, he's history.
> 
> Anyway, she comes across as someone who is into games. My take was that she wanted you to ask her to be her boyfriend. She likes to play games.


Ugh another one...this is getting old quick!


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Why are you pushing for committed LTRs?

Are you already searching for wife #3?

Just date. Many women. Have sex. With many women.

You're coming off as needy, clingy, and too fvckin nice.

Since you still insist on dating, expand your options. Have multiple gals on the hook. That way if one isn't feeling it you don't start getting all paranoid and overbearing. Women want a man that other women want.

Realize that you likely won't find a quality woman until your D is final, and you are comfortable with your solitude.

Have you found any hobbies yet?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

In other words, what makes you interesting? You need to have other interests, in order to share common interests.


----------



## Mr The Other

ThreeStrikes said:


> Why are you pushing for committed LTRs?
> 
> Are you already searching for wife #3?
> 
> Just date. Many women. Have sex. With many women.
> 
> You're coming off as needy, clingy, and too fvckin nice.
> 
> Since you still insist on dating, expand your options. Have multiple gals on the hook. That way if one isn't feeling it you don't start getting all paranoid and overbearing. Women want a man that other women want.
> 
> Realize that you likely won't find a quality woman until your D is final, and you are comfortable with your solitude.
> 
> Have you found any hobbies yet?


This is true. I have met a lady who seems very nice, and I am interested. I am going to ask her out soon. But I also have two other ladies I am seeing (they are aware) who are not looking for something serious and it takes the pressure off. It also means I can get on with living life. 

You are doing alright, @unbe . Better than most men. But we are not here to concentrate on what you are doing right, but on how you can improve.


----------



## unbe

ThreeStrikes said:


> Why are you pushing for committed LTRs?
> 
> Are you already searching for wife #3?
> 
> Just date. Many women. Have sex. With many women.
> 
> You're coming off as needy, clingy, and too fvckin nice.
> 
> Since you still insist on dating, expand your options. Have multiple gals on the hook. That way if one isn't feeling it you don't start getting all paranoid and overbearing. Women want a man that other women want.
> 
> Realize that you likely won't find a quality woman until your D is final, and you are comfortable with your solitude.
> 
> Have you found any hobbies yet?


I honestly don't start off this way but my natural progression takes me there...and quick. I am trying my hardest to avoid this which is why I am still keeping others in the stable. Its very difficult for me to do this however. 

My D is for all purposes done. The paperwork is with the courts and my lawyer advised it should be done by end of June. There is no contact whatsoever with the X.

I do have some hobbies which include the gym, and im getting into horse racing (owning thoroughbreds). Softball season is around the corner also....My IC is pushing me towards going back to school also which I am considering. 

Regarding #2- I am still unsure on what her intentions are at this point. In the beginning she did state she wasn't able to bring much to the table right now (due to being depressed from being unemployed) and didn't want a sexual relationship at this time which she seems to be following. She did mention early that guys have used her in the past for sex, Id imagine thats why she went out with that warning. 

In any event, I will continue to see others and TRY to enjoy myself while doing so.


----------



## unbe

Mr The Other said:


> This is true. I have met a lady who seems very nice, and I am interested. I am going to ask her out soon. But I also have two other ladies I am seeing (they are aware) who are not looking for something serious and it takes the pressure off. It also means I can get on with living life.
> 
> You are doing alright, @unbe . Better than most men. But we are not here to concentrate on what you are doing right, but on how you can improve.


I do have one FWB currently and another two who I have been talking to and will be meeting this week. 

#2 and I went heavy in the beginning (seeing each other 10-12 times during the first 3 weeks). It seemed like fun at the time but now it just seems strange. Not only did I drop everything to do this which is wrong but whey was she so available also?


----------



## unbe

So she reached out this last night saying good night to which I did not respond to

This morning she said good morning I replied in kind asking her how day was.

She proceed to vent about not getting nay positive responses from her applications

I had mentioned I was heading out after work and if she wanted to get out of the house she should join me...

That was 5 hours ago, no response.

Whats my next move here?


----------



## Evinrude58

My opinion: all this worrying about appearing needy and being too pushy and such is total bs.

Once you meet the right one, it will all happen naturally and easy. Don't be some doofus that overanalyzes everything they do.
Like telling her you also had a hard time picking an outfit-- that's uncool to tell her, but who the heck cares?
If she's not thinking a out how much she likes you and if SHE is good enough for YOU, then move the f on.

I wouldn't act stupid and harass her with texts and calls, but I'd respond when I got the chance and not after so much time to not appear so needy.....and other such bs.

It's not rocker science. When you really like one another, you want more. Go get it if that's the case.

I would just not put all your eggs in one basket emotionally, until you learn more about her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Evinrude58

unbe said:


> So she reached out this last night saying good night to which I did not respond to
> 
> This morning she said good morning I replied in kind asking her how day was.
> 
> She proceed to vent about not getting nay positive responses from her applications
> 
> I had mentioned I was heading out after work and if she wanted to get out of the house she should join me...
> 
> That was 5 hours ago, no response.
> 
> Whats my next move here?


Chill out and make your own plans and don't worry about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbe

Evinrude58 said:


> Chill out and make your own plans and don't worry about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok so update from Monday:

I texted her inviting her out at noon...7:00 she texts me back and asks if I was still at work and if I wanted to stop by. I was at work and said sure thinking she was going to come out with me.

When I get there she looks like hell, in her pjs still and looks pissed. She asks me to come in.

When I get in the house she had cooked me dinner. I sat down to eat and at this point she starts to explain how her day went. She is complaining the her job search is going awful, she cant get any interviews and she doesnt feel she will ever get a job. She is clearly falling into a deprsssion.

I dont offer any advice as im sure shes heard all of that she can handle. Instead I offer my sympathies and just sit and listen. I do suggest we try and plan something fun for the weekend but she shoots that down and suggests she can even think of having fun right now.

I hang out for around 2 hours listening to her vent, trying to keep myself positive for her but I feel she is just slipping deeper in. This girl is no where near ready to be in any relationship and I am not even sure why she would be on a dating site at this time. 

Anyway, I get ready to leave. She thanks me for coming over, I thank her for making me dinner. She kisses my goodbye and says she hopes to see me again soon.

Yesterday, we had some light texting. She called me during the day to dump more of her misfortune on me and that was it.

We really dont have plans to see each other again and Im unsure what to do at this point. 

Anyone got anything for me?


----------



## Livvie

This sounds awful. Don't you want to spend time with someone who has their life on track right now?


----------



## unbe

Livvie said:


> This sounds awful. Don't you want to spend time with someone who has their life on track right now?


Come on, whats the fun in that?


----------



## unbe

Update:

So last week I had asked her to join me shopping the following thursday (yesterday). I am awful at it and thought it would be fun to have a women help me out. She agreed however we havent discussed it since last week.

Wed night I had asked her to grab dinner after work to which she responded to just come to her house and she would cook again. (side note, she is living at home with her dad since her break up in December).

Anyway, dinner winds up going bad for some reason and we wind up just going out to grab apps and a few drinks. We have a great night! Laughing, talking about upcoming things and implying we would be there toghther. Just a great convo and night, we wind up closing the restaurant. That night she confirms with me that she cant wait to help me shop so thursday is a go. We get back to her house, she kisses me goodnight (short kisses)

I pick her up and we head on Thursday, and we head out. She in a good mood but still the job is weighing on her (undestanably). As we are shopping she is picking shirts out and makes a comment like "oh, you cant wear this shirt unless your with me and your my boyfriend or husband" Now this is the third time she kinda hinted at this so I just came out and asked her. 

Unbe: "Youn know, you keep mentiuoning this. Let me ask you, when do I get to start calling you my gf'?

#2: "Dude, we have been dating for 3 weeks. Plus I really don't believe in labels"


Granted she has a point, however in those 3 weeks we've prob seen each other 15 times.

Unbe: "Ah yea that's true, honestly it doesn't really matter. We spend all our time together anyway"

And the conversation ends there....


Now, I was expecting the day to be awkward after that and it wasn't. We ended up spending another 4 hours together. Went to a few more stores, went to the park and made out on a bench. Held hands all day. Grabbed a quick bite to eat. She invited me to 2 parties next weekend. We have plans to see each other for dinner tonight then shes coming to my house Sunday.

I guess my questions are as follows:

1) How damaging is that conversation? Can you recover from that?

2) What exactly am I in with her (relationship wise)?

3) Do I just pull all the way back now and ramp up my other options?


----------



## Vega

unbe said:


> Update:
> 
> Granted she has a point, however *in those 3 weeks we've prob seen each other 15 times.
> *


....aaaaaand....your point is.....? 

One thing about this thread that I've noticed is that you've written about what the two of you have _done_ together (out to eat, made out in the park, etc.). But you haven't written anything about what you've learned about her _character_. 

I mean...does seeing someone 15 times in 3 weeks REALLY equal "girlfriend" material? 

Also, this whole "dance" that you're doing with her almost seems a bit too...um...strategic. Kind of like you're scheming instead of going with the flow. If she says "A" your "options" are either "B" or "C". You're going through all of this for someone who you don't even know if you'll still want in 3 _months_. 

Just what DOES equal "girlfriend material" to you?


----------



## ThePheonix

unbe said:


> Regarding #2- I am still unsure on what her intentions are at this point.


Unbe, her intention are to string you along Dawg and never give you any puzzy. You need to learn to be more of a challenge my man. You mentioned early on you didn't want to appear needy. Not being a challenge and a mystery is worse than being needy. Here's a couple of f-ups I noticed:

Telling them how much you are into them before they say it to you multiple times. 

Letting them use delay tactics and keep you in the friendship zone. By the forth date, the heat should be going through the roof. If not, she just ain't that much into you. (probably because you haven't been a challenge.) If you haven't noticed, chicks from 18 to 80 go for the bad boy. You're coming off a little like the overly patient nice boy willing to wait your turn. They need to know that they are only one of your options.


----------



## john117

I'm not a dating expert (  ) but know a thing or two about job hunting stress. Unless she has either supreme confidence or no confidence in her skills, her behavior is expected. She's not fully landed job wise so getting her to commit to anything is not likely.

She likes the attention and "fun" aspect of hanging out but hanging out ain't dating. It's hanging out. 

What line of work is she in?


----------



## Betrayedone

This is just a hot mess........high school drama


----------



## unbe

All...thanks for your feedback so far.


Vega: Honestly im not sure it means anything. Its just a fact that I stated. My idea of a g/f is someone who I can share experiences with, we have mutual attraction and enjoy being in each others company...I seem to have this with her.


Phoenix: Excellent advise here. I already put it into play. Friday, we went to dinner and had a great time. I told her that it was going to be an early night as I had plans after. So, dinner ends and shes like "I wish we could hang out longer". I said yea, Ill see you soon. Dropped her off and went on with my night, not telling her anything. Then yesterday she asked how my day was. My comment "I had an awesome day, thanks for asking"- no detail, let her imagination start to run a bit. She was asking what I was up to last night and I said I had plans, that was it. She attempted to face time me during the night to which I did not answer.

John: Line of works isnt anything crazy, she for all purposes a secretary in the med field. There is more to this story I feel....

Betray: No doubt it is...Im trying my friend, I really am.


----------



## Betrayedone

Ok, I understand. Just don't put all of your eggs in this basket........


----------



## unbe

Betrayedone said:


> Ok, I understand. Just don't put all of your eggs in this basket........


Indeed my friend...

Update:


Friday night we went out for a quick dinner. I had plans with my firends after and she had to be up early Sat.

Dinner went great, I dropped her off. As I was leaving she said she wished we could hang out longer. I said goodnight and that well see each other Sunday and went on my way. Score one for Unbe!

Saturday I was hanging with my boys, running around doing some errands. Typical day. 

She was reaching out during the day seeing how I was, asking what I was doing. 

#2: Hey there, doing anything fun today?

Unbe: Yup, having a great day. How about you?

#2: Im at my sis babysitting, these kids are crazy.

Silenece from Unbe

Hour later, face time request comes in which I ignore.

I text at like 10pm, wishing her a good night and thats it.

Sunday:

I pick her up and the first thing she says is I feel like I havent seen you in forever.

So the last 2 sundays she has come over for dinner but has gone home after. She comes over yesterday, I cook us dinner. We have a few glasses of wine and she winds up staying the night. 

We did not have sex. (Earlier I had an IC appointment and he told me to hold off on this for now). We did fool around a little but nothing crazy. She was exhausted and I was in the process of having my man card revoked lol (Honestly I am not sure how to look at this if its a positive or a negative). 

She tells me she loved being there and had a great night. I dropped her off this morning. We have plans for the weekend but nothing prior...


I have a date tonight with another girl who I have met once before, nice girl.


----------



## unbe

Ok question for the masses...

Theres a concert series at the beach where I live... Tickets went on sale a few days ago

Two concerts in particual I want to go to...#2 and I like the same music so I Figured shed be gun ho.

I sent her the link and said "Hey I wanna go see XXX and YYY on these dates. Check the list, let me know if there are any others you wanna check out"

She knows that I can get tickets for almost nothing...In my line of work I meet alot of people and have some pretty good connections with stuff like this.

The text goes unanswered....


On my way home I give her a call (about 5 hours after the text) just to say hi....

She asked how work was blah blah blah...I was basically like "yea kinda boring thats why I was checking out concerts today, did you see any you liked?"

She then says:

"I really dont like to make plans like that, I am kind of a commitment phoeb when it comes to making plans. I just like to go with the flow. I have always been like that"

Question is:

1) How do you deal with someone like this? I have never had experience with someone like this.

2) I am the exact OPPOSITE. How on earth is this going to work?

Side note: She was engaged at one point for 4 years. She broke it off and told me the reason was because her X couldnt define why he wanted to actually marry her. Im sure this plays into the commitment issues somehow!


----------



## Personal

Why are you wasting your time with her?


----------



## unbe

Personal said:


> Why are you wasting your time with her?


Why do you feel that Im wasting time?


----------



## farsidejunky

unbe said:


> Why do you feel that Im wasting time?


Why are you answering questions with questions?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tron

unbe said:


> She then says:
> 
> "I really dont like to make plans like that, I am kind of a commitment phoeb when it comes to making plans. I just like to go with the flow. I have always been like that"
> 
> ...
> 
> 2) I am the exact OPPOSITE. How on earth is this going to work?


Unbe: "Thanks for letting me know this. That doesn't work for me. Good luck to you."

NEXT!


----------



## unbe

Tron said:


> Unbe: "Thanks for letting me know this. That doesn't work for me. Good luck to you."
> 
> NEXT!


Im thinking this is my only option....

However:

She does know that this upset me and has been scrambling since saying it )she must have sensed it in my voice during the phone convo. Right before we hung up she asked if I was ok" 
Im trying to determine now if she was just pushing boundries or if its a true objection just yet...Im in the wait and see mode right now. Going to stay dark for a little so see what shakes loose


----------



## farsidejunky

Why would you settle for either one?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## unbe

farsidejunky said:


> Why would you settle for either one?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not sure what you mean....

Should I just be walking away from any girl who throws up a sht test?


----------



## farsidejunky

An occasional one? No. Weaving a minefield in the first 3 weeks that you are together? Hell yes.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tron

unbe said:


> She does know that this upset me and has been scrambling since saying it )she must have sensed it in my voice during the phone convo. Right before we hung up she asked if I was ok"
> Im trying to determine now if she was just pushing boundries or if its a true objection just yet...Im in the wait and see mode right now. Going to stay dark for a little so see what shakes loose


IMO she was telling you who she is. 

It is very hard to change the fundamentals of who you are, especially when you are doing it for someone else. And frankly, why would you want her to do that? It won't end well.

You guys simply aren't compatible. And that is what dating is for. 

Move on.


----------



## unbe

Tron said:


> IMO she was telling you who she is.
> 
> It is very hard to change the fundamentals of who you are, especially when you are doing it for someone else. And frankly, why would you want her to do that? It won't end well.
> 
> You guys simply aren't compatible. And that is what dating is for.
> 
> Move on.



I do not want that. I am never going to change and fundamental belief again for someone and I wouldn't expect someone to do it for me.


----------



## Tron

unbe said:


> I do not want that. I am never going to change and fundamental belief again for someone and I wouldn't expect someone to do it for me.


Good man! And I totally agree with you.

A couple questions for you then...so, knowing what you know about her...

What do you think you should do?

What do you really want to do?


----------



## unbe

Tron said:


> Good man! And I totally agree with you.
> 
> A couple questions for you then...so, knowing what you know about her...
> 
> What do you think you should do?
> 
> What do you really want to do?


Before I answer this...

I just got a text from her asking me if I want to get a massage on thursday that shes treating too...Thought she couldnt make plans?

This is what I mean, I need to smoke out if this is just another sht test or not.


----------



## unbe

Tron said:


> Good man! And I totally agree with you.
> 
> A couple questions for you then...so, knowing what you know about her...
> 
> What do you think you should do?
> 
> What do you really want to do?


First question: I think I need to pull back. Sit and observe. Patience has never been a virtue of mine but dating is forcing me to learn this trait, and quickly. 

Second question: I want to confront but I also feel there's been a bit to much of that already. Especially in an undefined R which is what we are in. Actions so far have been nothing but BF but the fact that she wont define it as such speaks volumes. Shes basically cake eating 

I have a third question that you should have asked. What do I feel is the right thing to do? The answer to that is move on. I shouldn't be dodging so many balls this early in the game. It shouldn't be this confusing. I wish I knew the answer to why its so damn hard for me to act on it.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

unbe said:


> Before I answer this...
> 
> I just got a text from her asking me if I want to get a massage on thursday that shes treating too...Thought she couldnt make plans?
> 
> This is what I mean, I need to smoke out if this is just another sht test or not.


Response: "only if you're the one giving the massage".


----------



## Personal

unbe said:


> Why do you feel that Im wasting time?


She's playing ridiculous games with you and wasting your time, everything thing you have described should have put her into the broken people basket, yet you keep letting her tell you "sit, roll over, fetch"!

How needy and desperate are you?


----------



## unbe

Personal said:


> She's playing ridiculous games with you and wasting your time, everything thing you have described should have put her into the broken people basket, yet you keep letting her tell you "sit, roll over, fetch"!
> 
> How needy and desperate are you?


You are 1000% accurate with this statement and its time to put this to an end.

Do I actually reach out and end it or just go dark and never return?


----------



## unbe

Side note:

Now that I am ending this. I am seeing a pattern here.

Over the last 3 months I have basically met 3 girls that have progressed to something more than just a date or 2.

These R all last around the same length of time 3-4 weeks.

They all end the same way. Basically with me chasing and them running. I eventually will get a text/call saying how it was fun and Im a great guy but it isn't going to work for whatever reason they come up with. 

Now each girl had there issue for sure, but I'm also not stupid. The one common theme with all of them is ME.

I'm doing something wrong and I have a feeling it has to do with me just being to damn nice/needy/pathetic actually. However this must start to come out as I become comfortable with the person and not in the beginning. 

I need help here...How do I break this pattern?


----------



## syhoybenden

unbe said:


> just go dark and never return?



:iagree: :yawn2:


----------



## joannacroc

unbe said:


> Side note:
> 
> Now that I am ending this. I am seeing a pattern here.
> 
> Over the last 3 months I have basically met 3 girls that have progressed to something more than just a date or 2.
> 
> These R all last around the same length of time 3-4 weeks.
> 
> They all end the same way. Basically with me chasing and them running. I eventually will get a text/call saying how it was fun and Im a great guy but it isn't going to work for whatever reason they come up with.
> 
> Now each girl had there issue for sure, but I'm also not stupid. The one common theme with all of them is ME.
> 
> I'm doing something wrong and I have a feeling it has to do with me just being to damn nice/needy/pathetic actually. However this must start to come out as I become comfortable with the person and not in the beginning.
> 
> I need help here...How do I break this pattern?


I'm sorry to hear that. I'm putting on my brutally honest woman hat for a moment:

You don't say anything specific about these women's characters. You mention that she's cool etc. But you don't seem to know what you find interesting about them - WHY do you want to keep dating them, in other words. Do they enjoy the same music? Do you share similar values? You don't seem to put much thought into WHY you're chasing these women specifically. 

Honestly I get that people suffer from depression (I'm one of them). But unless a relative has just died or something, it's a little weird to do the sweatpants thing when you're inviting a man over for a nice dinner, especially when you've only recently started dating. She vented, she seemed depressed, non-commital etc. I felt sorry for her. But she isn't someone who has her s*^* together. So not a great pick. 

You don't have much confidence in the conclusions you draw about their behavior. Really, really observe the way they act. What they do. What they value. What's your reaction? Do you actually like them or are you looking for another date so you can see the experience as a success?

Part of me wonders why you're drawn to these women in particular? They all seem to share common themes - they're a mess in some way or another. Do you feel the need to pick up the pieces? Rescue them? It seems like maybe you could benefit from counseling for a longer period of time before you progress to dating. I don't know. 

You have FWB - that would be a deal breaker for me because of the potential discomfort of hanging out with someone you slept with, but perhaps not an issue for casual daters?

Some of the quick endings aren't necessarily your fault. You might just not be compatible. It may just be that they don't want to commit, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, don't want to date a guy who is dating a bunch of other women too. 

I'm curious - if you feel comfortable sharing, what does your counselor make of the women you're dating? Does he/she sense any patterns?


----------



## unbe

joannacroc said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. I'm putting on my brutally honest woman hat for a moment:
> 
> You don't say anything specific about these women's characters. You mention that she's cool etc. But you don't seem to know what you find interesting about them - WHY do you want to keep dating them, in other words. Do they enjoy the same music? Do you share similar values? You don't seem to put much thought into WHY you're chasing these women specifically.
> 
> Honestly I get that people suffer from depression (I'm one of them). But unless a relative has just died or something, it's a little weird to do the sweatpants thing when you're inviting a man over for a nice dinner, especially when you've only recently started dating. She vented, she seemed depressed, non-commital etc. I felt sorry for her. But she isn't someone who has her s*^* together. So not a great pick.
> 
> You don't have much confidence in the conclusions you draw about their behavior. Really, really observe the way they act. What they do. What they value. What's your reaction? Do you actually like them or are you looking for another date so you can see the experience as a success?
> 
> Part of me wonders why you're drawn to these women in particular? They all seem to share common themes - they're a mess in some way or another. Do you feel the need to pick up the pieces? Rescue them? It seems like maybe you could benefit from counseling for a longer period of time before you progress to dating. I don't know.
> 
> You have FWB - that would be a deal breaker for me because of the potential discomfort of hanging out with someone you slept with, but perhaps not an issue for casual daters?
> 
> Some of the quick endings aren't necessarily your fault. You might just not be compatible. It may just be that they don't want to commit, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, don't want to date a guy who is dating a bunch of other women too.
> 
> I'm curious - if you feel comfortable sharing, what does your counselor make of the women you're dating? Does he/she sense any patterns?



Your right, i don't mention their characters. Part of the reason is I don't know them well enough to really say. I feel a month is basically a start to knock down some walls and really get to know someone but I ha vent been able to progress it.

The first was a sweet girl. Hard worker, very reserved. She had gone through a bad D and was living at home with her father. She was a hoarder. She was smart, and very unassuming. We loved alot of the same things also. This ended because she had told me her X reached out to her and wanted to gibe it another try (not X husband, X BF)

The second was the girl in AA. She had her financial life together for sure but her personal life all over the place. Was very honest, forthcoming, and comfortable with being silent which is a big thing for me. We had a lot of similar interest which I put a lot of stock into which is why I kinda overlooked the AA. I knew her only being in for 4 months was a flag. That one ended because she said her sponsor advised she shouldn't date. Mind you that conversation supposingly happened after we were out about 5 times.

The third is the current one. Sweet girl, has clear issues. She has anger issues, she unemployed and having trouble finding a job as a secretary. She was fired from her last job due to violence. Its hard to see how that is possible, shes a tiny girl but I can see that she has some rage in her. She funny, fun to be around. Shes not very bright, she is a pot head and has clear commitment issues. We have almost nothing in common. To her credit she did tell me in the beginning that she wasn't good relationship material and that she wasn't looking for anything sexual at the moment. She said she had been screwed over by her past few R and they left right after that happened. Part of that was running through my head the night she stayed over. 

One common theme with all of them...I felt they were much better looking than me. Progressively one better than the next. This kept me in it for sure. 

Another common theme, I haven't slept with any of them. 

And finally the last common theme, they are all terrible at responding to text messages, from ME.

Also I need to add, they necessarily don't know for sure I am dating other women. We never actually had the conversation.

#1 I was dating others. She never asked.

#2 I stopped dating but was still talking to others. She never asked

#3 I did stop dating but was also talking to others. She never asked but the subject did come up about a week ago where she clearly stated it was too soon to talk about that. (mind you shes the one that kept hinting at it)


As for my therapist, its really too early for him to tell. He only knows about the current one. I just switched to him 2 weeks ago.


----------



## farsidejunky

Start by refusing to be so available.

You offer a date idea. She turns it down. Then at the last minute, she calls with a change of plan and wants to actually get together.

When that happens:

"I would love to, but I already have plans. Maybe later in the week."

You are busy. You have places to go, people to see, and things to do (or places to go, things to see, and people to do, depending on your flavor of things). 

You don't wait around for her to call at the last minute. That sacrifices your time for her. It is purely on her terms. Make things on your terms, your timelines, etc. If a girl is _really_ into you, they will adjust to _you_.



unbe said:


> Side note:
> 
> Now that I am ending this. I am seeing a pattern here.
> 
> Over the last 3 months I have basically met 3 girls that have progressed to something more than just a date or 2.
> 
> These R all last around the same length of time 3-4 weeks.
> 
> They all end the same way. Basically with me chasing and them running. I eventually will get a text/call saying how it was fun and Im a great guy but it isn't going to work for whatever reason they come up with.
> 
> Now each girl had there issue for sure, but I'm also not stupid. The one common theme with all of them is ME.
> 
> I'm doing something wrong and I have a feeling it has to do with me just being to damn nice/needy/pathetic actually. However this must start to come out as I become comfortable with the person and not in the beginning.
> 
> I need help here...How do I break this pattern?


----------



## farsidejunky

Holy crap, Unbe. All three have huge red flags. Especially the violent secretary who wants things on her terms all the time. I can't imagine why she would have problems at work, where things are much less likely to be on her terms...

Were you dating them to seriously try them on for LTR's? Or was it just "fun"?


----------



## unbe

farsidejunky said:


> Holy crap, Unbe. All three have huge red flags. Especially the violent secretary who wants things on her terms all the time. I can't imagine why she would have problems at work, where things are much less likely to be on her terms...
> 
> Were you dating them to seriously try them on for LTR's? Or was it just "fun"?


It always started off as fun but developed in my mind to something that may be long term.

Not going to lie, if any of them where willing. I would have went long term.

Thats really, really bad for me.


----------



## farsidejunky

Desperation is a stinky cologne.

Tell me what movie that is from _without_ googling it, and you may not be as bad off as it appears... lol


----------



## unbe

farsidejunky said:


> Desperation is a stinky cologne.
> 
> Tell me what movie that is from _without_ googling it, and you may not be as bad off as it appears... lol


I have no clue lol...I am a lost cause my friend


----------



## Tron

joannacroc said:


> You don't have much confidence in the conclusions you draw about their behavior. Really, really observe the way they act. What they do. What they value. What's your reaction? Do you actually like them or are you looking for another date so you can see the experience as a success?
> 
> Part of me wonders why you're drawn to these women in particular? They all seem to share common themes - they're a mess in some way or another. Do you feel the need to pick up the pieces? Rescue them? It seems like maybe you could benefit from counseling for a longer period of time before you progress to dating. I don't know.


I was going to say *counseling* and *mindfulness*. But Joanna explains it quite well.

Become an expert at observation...of yourself, your feelings and these women you date.


----------



## Wolf1974

You need to stop being the white knight and trying to attach to women with problems or that only want an emotional friend with guy parts. You are purposely putting yourself in the friend zone role. You need to detach and start by making yourself a priority and having confidence and you will be amazed who wants to follow that. Confidence is the key,saying what needs to be said is key, leading from the front is key. This is just a mindset change.


----------



## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> Side note:
> 
> Now that I am ending this. I am seeing a pattern here.
> 
> Over the last 3 months I have basically met 3 girls that have progressed to something more than just a date or 2.
> 
> These R all last around the same length of time 3-4 weeks.
> 
> They all end the same way. Basically with me chasing and them running. I eventually will get a text/call saying how it was fun and Im a great guy but it isn't going to work for whatever reason they come up with.
> 
> Now each girl had there issue for sure, but I'm also not stupid. The one common theme with all of them is ME.
> 
> I'm doing something wrong and I have a feeling it has to do with me just being to damn nice/needy/pathetic actually. However this must start to come out as I become comfortable with the person and not in the beginning.
> 
> *I need help here...How do I break this pattern?*


I want you to consider this last line.

Consider it in the context of you saying you are needy.

Then you right that you need help. 

How about this. You do not need help. You can break this on your own. You can use the advice of other people, perhaps even a therapist - but you DO NOT NEED help. 

There is a voice that tells you what you should do as a needy person, while you identify as needy. It is the same voice that authors the last line of that post. People might help you, but you are the one who will do this. Draw up a dating profile, an imaginary one. Decide on a very shallow level what you would like in a girl, for yourself and write that in there and then what you are like to someone dating (keep it fairly shallow, fun is as deep as we go).

Joanna's advice seems useful.


----------



## BetrayedDad

unbe said:


> I'm doing something wrong and I have a feeling it has to do with me just being to damn nice/needy/pathetic actually.


Yeah going on more than one date with any of them....

I mean if you're new to the game, the practice doesn't hurt. Plus, if they agree to no strings sex then why not? Be clear about that being what you want though.

Serious though... NONE of them were even close to being girlfriend or LTR material. You need to stop wasting time and money on LOSERS.

Set your bar a little higher. You'd be better off focusing on finding an awesome gf then wasting your time juggling dead end relationships.


----------



## ReturntoZero

unbe said:


> Side note:
> 
> Now that I am ending this. I am seeing a pattern here.
> 
> Over the last 3 months I have basically met 3 girls that have progressed to something more than just a date or 2.
> 
> These R all last around the same length of time 3-4 weeks.
> 
> They all end the same way. Basically with me chasing and them running. I eventually will get a text/call saying how it was fun and Im a great guy but it isn't going to work for whatever reason they come up with.
> 
> Now each girl had there issue for sure, but I'm also not stupid. The one common theme with all of them is ME.
> 
> I'm doing something wrong and I have a feeling it has to do with me just being to damn nice/needy/pathetic actually. However this must start to come out as I become comfortable with the person and not in the beginning.
> 
> I need help here...How do I break this pattern?


You return to the GTDS forum and work on yourself.


----------



## lucy999

farsidejunky said:


> Start by refusing to be so available.
> 
> You offer a date idea. She turns it down. Then at the last minute, she calls with a change of plan and wants to actually get together.
> 
> When that happens:
> 
> "I would love to, but I already have plans. Maybe later in the week."
> 
> You are busy. You have places to go, people to see, and things to do (or places to go, things to see, and people to do, depending on your flavor of things).
> 
> You don't wait around for her to call at the last minute. That sacrifices your time for her. It is purely on her terms. Make things on your terms, your timelines, etc. If a girl is _really_ into you, they will adjust to _you_.


Most excellent advice.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


----------



## browneyes74

Not to hijack your thread, but this makes me very disheartened about dating today..  I wonder now, how many times things fell apart with a guy I liked, because I didn't "play the game" because no one gave me the rule book.. Where they started pulling back, and instead of "chasing them" I decided they were no longer interested in me, and so I respected their backing off, and they thought I wasn't interested, and so on and so forth..  So, keep that in mind.. 

Having said that.. All three of those women were HOT MESSES and take it from a recovering co-dependent.. HELL to the NO.. My XH was a pill popping drunk.. And honestly, if those 3 had been men, they wouldn't have made it past the first or second convo.. You read Codependent No More? Read it again. And again. I've read it 3 times. THREE. Because I knew that I had to change what caused ME to choose people like that.. But that's your journey.. You will find it a bit harder to date, because God knows, if they are single in their late 30s, early 40s, its's bound to have messed them up 

I hope it works out.. There are some normal people out there. Try to find them.


ETA: Also, please keep in mind that just because a woman is over 35 does not mean she is on the shelf, or has a lack of options.. I'm 42, reasonably attractive, and honestly, I get hit on by more late 20s, early 30s than anything.. And not just for sex..  But because they know I'm not on the baby track, I'm established and can take care of myself.. Women in their late 20s and early 30s definitely have that "scent of desperation" from what I hear.. But honestly, I think we all want the same thing.. To find someone to connect with and hang out with who we enjoy who they are..


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## 225985

unbe said:


> Update:
> 
> Something clicking in me last night.....All of this over-examination is caused by my own insecurities. Not insecurities in this relationship, insecurities in general.
> 
> I am not giving myself enough credit/value and am driving myself crazy worrying if SHE likes ME.
> 
> F that!!! It stops today
> 
> Me wanting to "label" this is due to me being insecure, its serves no other purpose.
> 
> Me wanting responses when I put myself out there is again looking for reassurances due to being insecure.
> 
> This sht stops now....
> 
> If I dont value myself, how can I expect anyone else too.
> 
> No more chasing...
> 
> No more over-anaylizing...
> 
> No more sweating a stupid label that means NOTHING
> 
> Its time for me to be a man and MAN THE F UP
> 
> Time to flip the script on this. Im not saying im going to be a dck, im saying its time to care LESS. Reach out LESS. Worry LESS.
> 
> Lets bag this bunny with confidence and swagger.


 @unbe WOW, man, just WOW. I read this yesterday and again now. And I printed this out for me to look at every day.

Great words to live your life by. Thanks for sharing. You have a remarkable gift for self-reflection. 

I wish this was me saying this. I wish I could do this. Seeing another guy do this gives me hope that I can do same some day.

Good Luck.


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## unbe

Funny thing happened on the way to singlehood...all 3 of these have reached out over the past 2 days and are pressing hard to the hole. 

I am not going to entertain a single one of them...well not right now anyway and not for anything that's long term...

Let me tell you why:

These 3 are prime examples of girls wanting what they cant have. I presented my best foot forward, they saw who I was and what I can offer. When they can have it they didn't want it. Now that's its gone (or harder to reach) they all want it back. They know Im a great guy with a ton to offer but that wasn't enough. I was too attainable and that turned them off. 

Heres my issue, I do not WANT to be with a girl who thinks this way, period. When I say be with I mean date, not just screw around with.

I may give them a chance for that, but not now and not unless they are clear on the terms.

My ideal long term partner will not want to play this game and double back weeks later once they discover what they lost. She will recognize it from the beginning and not want to let me go. 

Its all about putting self worth above all else. I know what kinda guy I am, I show it right away.


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## 225985

As part of your learning, ask them why are they are contacting you again. I assume one or more of these initiated the breakup. Listen and then act, not react.

The one with AA may be struggling. Hear her out. Tell her you admire her decision to work on herself first before serious dating. Meet her for some activities as a friend instead of potential lover, if you want to be her friend.

Don't assume that you know definitely why they broke it off with you and that now they want you because they cannot have you. If they are attractive women as you described they can easily find sex, and a date, if they choose. So they are approaching you for more than just sex (which is a good thing either way)

Did you read the book "Codependent No More" as @CynthiaDe recommended. Great book. I got it yesterday. I recommend you read it to see if you are codependent. You won't have to get too far into the book to know for sure.


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## unbe

blueinbr said:


> As part of your learning, ask them why are they are contacting you again. I assume one or more of these initiated the breakup. Listen and then act, not react.
> 
> The one with AA may be struggling. Hear her out. Tell her you admire her decision to work on herself first before serious dating. Meet her for some activities as a friend instead of potential lover, if you want to be her friend.
> 
> Don't assume that you know definitely why they broke it off with you and that now they want you because they cannot have you. If they are attractive women as you described they can easily find sex, and a date, if they choose. So they are approaching you for more than just sex (which is a good thing either way)
> 
> Did you read the book "Codependent No More" as @CynthiaDe recommended. Great book. I got it yesterday. I recommend you read it to see if you are codependent. You won't have to get too far into the book to know for sure.


2 out of the 3 ended it with me. I will continue to communicate with the girl in AA and be there for her as a friend only. I will not meet up with her however, i feel that would be too hard for ME to keep in on a friendship level if I do see her.

The other two I really wont bother with, at this time anyway. 

I have read that book numerous times and clear can define myself as co-dep. Its an ongoing struggle that I am working on daily


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## Mr The Other

browneyes74 said:


> ....
> 
> 
> ETA: Also, please keep in mind that just because a woman is over 35 does not mean she is on the shelf, or has a lack of options.. I'm 42, reasonably attractive, and honestly, I get hit on by more late 20s, early 30s than anything.. And not just for sex..  But because they know I'm not on the baby track, I'm established and can take care of myself.. Women in their late 20s and early 30s definitely have that "scent of desperation" from what I hear.. But honestly, I think we all want the same thing.. To find someone to connect with and hang out with who we enjoy who they are..


I can believe this. Age can lead to cynicism and people over thirty to start demanding the moon on a stick, and that their partner is wealthy and attractive while they are poor and out of shape. 

If a man or woman can avoid this, they will do well.


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## Mr The Other

unbe said:


> 2 out of the 3 ended it with me. I will continue to communicate with the girl in AA and be there for her as a friend only. I will not meet up with her however, i feel that would be too hard for ME to keep in on a friendship level if I do see her.
> 
> The other two I really wont bother with, at this time anyway.
> 
> I have read that book numerous times and clear *can define myself as co-dep*. Its an ongoing struggle that I am working on daily


I keep going on and I do not have expertise.

But try not to define yourself as co-dependent. Instead it is a silly set of ideas that you have in your head and you will be more yourself when you get rid of them, rather than less yourself.


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## CH

Oh, the dating game...Not sure if I could even get up to bat now a days since it's changed so much.

But from reading on the 1st page of your date with that girl it seems like she had to take the initiative to progress the relationship. It seems like you're trying to make sure she liked you 1st, like you're holding something back. When she finally held your arm you declared victory.

Also, when she was talking about having to pick between 5 outfits and wearing makeup (in other words going out to impress) I think you would have gotten lucky that night and you played the I'm going to wait and see card. I would have responded "I would have loved to see the other 4 outfits."

Don't be a Ted Mosby! Or you could be a Barney and just straight up ask them if they wore matching panties and bras....


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## farsidejunky

Or just tell her the other 4 would be cool, but what would be best would be the one she was wearing...bundled up at the bottom of your bed.


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## Evinrude58

blueinbr said:


> As part of your learning, ask them why are they are contacting you again. I assume one or more of these initiated the breakup. Listen and then act, not react.
> 
> The one with AA may be struggling. Hear her out. Tell her you admire her decision to work on herself first before serious dating. Meet her for some activities as a friend instead of potential lover, if you want to be her friend.
> 
> Don't assume that you know definitely why they broke it off with you and that now they want you because they cannot have you. If they are attractive women as you described they can easily find sex, and a date, if they choose. So they are approaching you for more than just sex (which is a good thing either way)
> 
> Did you read the book "Codependent No More" as @CynthiaDe recommended. Great book. I got it yesterday. I recommend you read it to see if you are codependent. You won't have to get too far into the book to know for sure.


I like what you wrote, but from my experience, it's all wrong.

I honestly can't imagine how OP can even keep his pants on if he's messing with women on dating sites. When I was on them, women would do immediately have sex after a "date" after we texted for a while. There was all this built up sexual interaction and honestly, I found most women are desperate for intimacy. In his own selfish interests, he might try talking to these women about what they like, what they want, what he's after, how sexy and attractive they are, etc etc. If he's having 3 dates with no sex with women of this low caliber, he's not making the emotional connection thT he should be with them. He's playing some role of a good guy prudish type person, and they don't really want that. They want crazy, sloppy, sex and sweet texts and fun dates. Not some guy who's worrying about fulfilling their needs and being a good guy and all. Do these women he's described sound like people who appreciate good character? Do they seen to be people who make good decisions? Good grief, they're all broken people looking for the rush of emotional stimulation. 
He could be having sex with a different woman every night if the week if he wanted. With online dating and such, it's crazy y for a person to be wanting for intimacy and settling for these obvious broken people.
One last thing:

If you want a good woman, settle down, stop worrying about whether they like you, and determine whether you like THEM. If you're a responsible, sane man, there are lines of women that will want you. You don't have to settle for a psycho, a drunk, or a flake.

I met my fiancée online. It can be done. But be prepared to run through lots of women looking. Thing is, enjoy the women. You're looking, you're having fun. You DONT give a damn if they aren't into you. 
When you find the right one, it will be I possibly easy how things fall I to place and you won't even think about all the being too nice, games, etc. 

Do you have a steady job?
Are you mentally stable?
Responsible?
Are you a decently good man?

Well you're the exception. Act like it.
Don't accept anything less than the same as you.

Rant over.

Btw, I'm not saying to be promiscuous and try to be fake with women to get into their pants. I'm saying you are going about something wrong, and the main thing is you don't understand that YOU deserve a good woman. Act like you know this and you'll be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

Evinrude58 said:


> I like what you wrote, but from my experience, it's all wrong.
> 
> I honestly can't imagine how OP can even keep his pants on if he's messing with women on dating sites. When I was on them, women would do immediately have sex after a "date" after we texted for a while. There was all this built up sexual interaction and honestly, I found most women are desperate for intimacy. In his own selfish interests, he might try talking to these women about what they like, what they want, what he's after, how sexy and attractive they are, etc etc. If he's having 3 dates with no sex with women of this low caliber, he's not making the emotional connection thT he should be with them. He's playing some role of a good guy prudish type person, and they don't really want that. They want crazy, sloppy, sex and sweet texts and fun dates. Not some guy who's worrying about fulfilling their needs and being a good guy and all. Do these women he's described sound like people who appreciate good character? Do they seen to be people who make good decisions? Good grief, they're all broken people looking for the rush of emotional stimulation.
> He could be having sex with a different woman every night if the week if he wanted. With online dating and such, it's crazy y for a person to be wanting for intimacy and settling for these obvious broken people.
> One last thing:



In my experience...wait, I have none. None is this area. Been married 23 years and very little dating experience.

I must have been projecting when I gave this "advice" It is worth what OP paid for it.

I want to be more attractive to woman. The type they want. My buddy tells me that I am too "authentic", which he means too much of good guy prudish type person.

IMO OP does not need a 1 yr ban on ****ing. Yes, he is the prize, not them. But he needs to shed the KISA attitude, the guy who takes care for the broken types. 

Just as you said, once he is HIMSELF, a high quality guy that rightfully believes the women have to convince HIM that they are worth HIS time, he will do fine. And he does not have to keep his pants on when he finds the right quality woman.


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## unbe

blueinbr said:


> In my experience...wait, I have none. None is this area. Been married 23 years and very little dating experience.
> 
> I must have been projecting when I gave this "advice" It is worth what OP paid for it.
> 
> I want to be more attractive to woman. The type they want. My buddy tells me that I am too "authentic", which he means too much of good guy prudish type person.
> 
> IMO OP does not need a 1 yr ban on ****ing. Yes, he is the prize, not them. But he needs to shed the KISA attitude, the guy who takes care for the broken types.
> 
> Just as you said, once he is HIMSELF, a high quality guy that rightfully believes the women have to convince HIM that they are worth HIS time, he will do fine. And he does not have to keep his pants on when he finds the right quality woman.



This is spot on and exactly what I am working towards


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