# any non trinitarian christians?



## happilyMRSinYAHUSHA

My husband and I believe that the messiah was a true man annointed with the holy spirit. We believe we are one with him in the same way that he is one with the father. We see the doctrines of the trinity or of "jesus" being the most high as utterly evil. We believe in the set apart creator yahuah, that he is an immortal invisible spirit. Does anyone else believe this?


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## Aspydad

happilyMRSinYAHUSHA said:


> My husband and I believe that the messiah was a true man annointed with the holy spirit. We believe we are one with him in the same way that he is one with the father. We see the doctrines of the trinity or of "jesus" being the most high as utterly evil. We believe in the set apart creator yahuah, that he is an immortal invisible spirit. Does anyone else believe this?


First, the God of Abraham - our creator - never proclaimed his name. When directly asked by Moses, he responded that "I am.” 

Second, messiah means savior. I am not sure what savior you are talking about? I will have to assume you are talking about Jesus - who is the Christ or Savior that was foretold in the Old Testament by the Profits.

Third, It is very clear in the New Testament that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are one in the same. Not just because Jesus said so – but because God the Creator of all life willed this to be so. I do believe this but do not understand how this can be so. The reason I believe is that I believe that the Holy Spirit is here on earth today and is all powerful. It was the Holy Spirit, by the way, that brought Jesus out of the grave and back to life after being killed on the cross. Jesus left this earth and is now seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is who inspired the disciples and Paul to write the New Testament. I believe this New Testament is without error which is why I believe the Trinity is true.

There are certainly many false teachers who proclaim who Jesus was / is. The Bible / New Testament is very clear how to spot a false profit. And the way it is evident is that a false profit will lie about who Jesus is – they will make this declaration with no proof and with no authority. For I do declare to you that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, he lived a perfect / sinless life on this planet for approximately 32 years until he suffered (for all sins of those who believe in Him), died and was buried – and on the third day (as foretold in the Old Testament) he was raised again in life – he appeared to many here on earth prior to being taken up into heaven where He is now seated at the right hand of the Father – and it is Jesus who will judge all.

You make many declarations without any proof probably because you have been listening to a false profit. You may want to actually read and study the Bible prior to making the declaration that anyone who believes that the concept of the Trinity is Evil.


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## Ynot

Aspydad said:


> First, the God of Abraham - our creator - never proclaimed his name. When directly asked by Moses, he responded that "I am.”
> 
> Second, messiah means savior. I am not sure what savior you are talking about? I will have to assume you are talking about Jesus - who is the Christ or Savior that was foretold in the Old Testament by the Profits.
> 
> Third, It is very clear in the New Testament that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are one in the same. Not just because Jesus said so – but because God the Creator of all life willed this to be so. I do believe this but do not understand how this can be so. The reason I believe is that I believe that the Holy Spirit is here on earth today and is all powerful. It was the Holy Spirit, by the way, that brought Jesus out of the grave and back to life after being killed on the cross. Jesus left this earth and is now seated at the right hand of God in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is who inspired the disciples and Paul to write the New Testament. I believe this New Testament is without error which is why I believe the Trinity is true.
> 
> There are certainly many false teachers who proclaim who Jesus was / is. The Bible / New Testament is very clear how to spot a false profit. And the way it is evident is that a false profit will lie about who Jesus is – they will make this declaration with no proof and with no authority. For I do declare to you that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, he lived a perfect / sinless life on this planet for approximately 32 years until he suffered (for all sins of those who believe in Him), died and was buried – and on the third day (as foretold in the Old Testament) he was raised again in life – he appeared to many here on earth prior to being taken up into heaven where He is now seated at the right hand of the Father – and it is Jesus who will judge all.
> 
> You make many declarations without any proof probably because you have been listening to a false profit. You may want to actually read and study the Bible prior to making the declaration that anyone who believes that the concept of the Trinity is Evil.


And you may want to study the true story of the Bible before using that book as "proof" upon which to base an argument. The Bible is full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies and contradictions. It was written by men, edited by men, translated by men and is based on hearsay (especially the New Testament that you rely so heavily on).


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## FormerSelf

This is a thread that is bound to go down in flames.


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## Aspydad

Ynot said:


> And you may want to study the true story of the Bible before using that book as "proof" upon which to base an argument. The Bible is full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies and contradictions. It was written by men, edited by men, translated by men and is based on hearsay (especially the New Testament that you rely so heavily on).


So what you’re saying is that there are many contradictions in the Bible and that you have determined this first hand? Or, maybe you have read this, which means you make your statement above on Hearsay? 

I will tell you, my statement is not on hearsay but from experience as I have studied the Bible. I have read through some of the claimed contradictions from Atheist’s - now mind you - Atheists are ones who do not even believe that a God exists to start with - so for me to even listen to a person who is completely blind and believes that man evolved from nothing is very difficult as for anyone to make that claim means that they already believes in lies.

But, to stay with the theme of this thread, I will address one supposed contraction that certainly is if one does not believe the concept of the Trinity. There are statements in the Bible that say that God cannot be seen and then in another place it says that God can be seen. If one is an Atheist I would doubt that this person could believe in the Trinity so I guess this would be a contradiction - however - if one believes in the Trinity then it is very clear how these seemingly contradictory statements are true - as the person of Jesus (God) was certainly seen and God the Father has not been seen - see what I mean?

It seems funny to me that you make this claim of contractions like they are fact - and even like it is a discovery that is recent – but, these claims are centuries old and all of these so called contractions have been disproven just they way the one I gave as an example was disproved.


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## Aspydad

Ynot said:


> And you may want to study the true story of the Bible before using that book as "proof" upon which to base an argument. The Bible is full of inconsistencies, inaccuracies and contradictions. It was written by men, edited by men, translated by men and is based on hearsay (especially the New Testament that you rely so heavily on).


As I think more about the contradiction example that I gave above about God being seen or not seen, I actually had another thought.

How crazy is the thought of an Atheist analyzing the Bible in it’s entirety and determining that there are contradictions? Consider the following:

First, the Bible was created by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and it is also by the Holy Spirit that resides in the believer that the massage of scripture is heard and understood. Get it – as an Atheist you are without the Holy Spirit – so you a deaf to the much of the message to start with!!

Second, I will give an example of how ridiculous the concept of an Atheist examination of the Gospel is: The books Mathew, Mark, Luke where all written for the believer (again - one who has the Holy Spirit within their being) and the book of John was written for the unbeliever and believer- 95% of the information in John is only in this book - where 95% of the information in the other three Gospels are repeated in each book or Gospel. Therefore, for an Atheist to even examine a book not written to them, is actually again – ridiculous.

Any response YNOT??


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## hawkeye

Right, because none of us atheists have ever read the Bible or been Christians before. They're words on a page. I can read them just as well as you can. And if having the holy spirit is the key to understanding, it's not doing a very good job given the number of denominations out there who disagree on just about everything.


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## Aspydad

hawkeye said:


> Right, because none of us atheists have ever read the Bible or been Christians before. They're words on a page. I can read them just as well as you can. And if having the holy spirit is the key to understanding, it's not doing a very good job given the number of denominations out there who disagree on just about everything.



So which is it Hawkeye: You used to be a Christian - which by definition you opened your Heart to God and the Holy Spirit came in - or - your lived a lie - meaning you outwardly practiced religion in the name of Jesus - but, inwardly you knew it was a Lie???

And yes, I stand by my statement that unless you are a believer in Jesus Christ the only Son of the Living God - you cannot comprehend the entire Word of God.

Because you see - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God - and the Word was God. Check out the Gospel of John and read. Then go to Genesis - it starts the same way as John - In the Beginning..... Notice how God created man in OUR image - not His image - See Genesis 28.

Go back to the book of John Chapter 1 - and the Word became Flesh - check it out folks. Read the book of John.

Inspire me with your Knowledge Hawkeye instead of your negativity as with all the rest or at least most of your posts that I see in this site.

Why is that by the way?? Your negativity that is?? Is it because you have turned your back on Jesus??

Or, did you never really invite Jesus into your heart??


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## Starstarfish

This is the "Relationships and Spirituality" section, not the "Politics and Religion" section, discussions here are meant to be (even if they rarely stay that way) about how religion or spirituality is affecting your relationship. 

Not sure that proselytizing or name-calling is the point.


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## Aspydad

Starstarfish said:


> This is the "Relationships and Spirituality" section, not the "Politics and Religion" section, discussions here are meant to be (even if they rarely stay that way) about how religion or spirituality is affecting your relationship.
> 
> Not sure that proselytizing or name-calling is the point.


Are you keeper of this section??

Please advise what value you have brought to this?


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## hawkeye

Aspydad said:


> So which is it Hawkeye: You used to be a Christian - which by definition you opened your Heart to God and the Holy Spirit came in - or - your lived a lie - meaning you outwardly practiced religion in the name of Jesus - but, inwardly you knew it was a Lie???
> 
> And yes, I stand by my statement that unless you are a believer in Jesus Christ the only Son of the Living God - you cannot comprehend the entire Word of God.
> 
> Because you see - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God - and the Word was God. Check out the Gospel of John and read. Then go to Genesis - it starts the same way as John - In the Beginning..... Notice how God created man in OUR image - not His image - See Genesis 28.
> 
> Go back to the book of John Chapter 1 - and the Word became Flesh - check it out folks. Read the book of John.
> 
> Inspire me with your Knowledge Hawkeye instead of your negativity as with all the rest or at least most of your posts that I see in this site.
> 
> Why is that by the way?? Your negativity that is?? Is it because you have turned your back on Jesus??
> 
> Or, did you never really invite Jesus into your heart??


So apostasy is literal impossible then? LOL. Trust me, I believed and loved Jesus as much as you did.


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## Starstarfish

> Are you keeper of this section??
> 
> Please advise what value you have brought to this?


My value is advising people to be mindful of the rules. Am I a moderator? No. Do I feel as a forum poster I'm within my rights to remind people about the rules we all are expected to follow? Yes. 

I've said my peace. I didn't realize that every post one makes on TAM was now being rated for "value." If that's the case, I'm probably doomed anyway.


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## FormerSelf

happilyMRSinYAHUSHA said:


> My husband and I believe that the messiah was a true man annointed with the holy spirit. We believe we are one with him in the same way that he is one with the father. We see the doctrines of the trinity or of "jesus" being the most high as utterly evil. We believe in the set apart creator yahuah, that he is an immortal invisible spirit. Does anyone else believe this?


I had to look up the uncommon usage of Yahua and Yahushua...seeing that what you wrote seems to align with a messianic/ Hebrew Roots movement seeking to sever any Greek association (thus pagan influenced) to what was perceived as early church practice...and trying to ground this movement into saying that Christians are wrong, we are pronouncing important names wrong (as if it mattered), and that the common adherence to a calendar other than the Jewish calendar and all of it's festivals is wrong, wrong, wrong.

While I do agree that there has been a certain degree of syncretism within certain observances and practices in various ways of some Christian establishments, my main issue with the Hebrew Roots movement is that the New Testament WAS written in Koine Greek as Israel was very much Hellenized in that time period, that even many Jews had to rely on the Septuagint [Greek translation of Torah/OT. In fact, there are some obvious borrowings from the Septuagint when referenced in Scripture (I believe it is in Jude)]. While Jesus was probably referred to differently in Hebrew or Aramaic tongue...such as many say Y'shua...really it's what we know as Joshua and since the NT was written in Greek, the use of Jesus or Iesous is not some eternal infraction...it's how the Greeks say the name. So yes, although Jesus does not reflect the lingual hebrew root of what Y'shua connotes...that too, is not an infraction. The Creator knows our hearts...and isn't too petty to frown upon folks who believe in Him and love Him with all of their hearts, "But dang it! Why can't they same my name right!? That's it! Be gone!"

By the way Christos has the same meaning as Messiah (meshiach)...it means annointed one.

And as for God...named as the tetragrammaton...yodh he waw he...there seems to be a insistence that it ought to be pronounced Yahuah...when really no one knows the true pronunciation as The Name was so highly revered and still is by modern Judaism...that even the popular Yahweh is in question (as they assume the niphal root vowel arrangement). Insisting that it must be Yahuah has about just as much weight as insisting that it MUST be pronounced as Jehovah (as they just overlapped vowels from Adonai onto YHWH). 

If shedding all vestiges of culture other than what is assumed is that of the early church, then basically it undermines the early churches decision not to force Gentile to live as Jews, since we are free by the laws of grace. Peter was confronted by this when he had the dream of the net carrying all of the unclean animals. Paul Confronted Peter on this when Peter started to disassociate with Gentiles. We do not live under the law, so as much as you are trying to shed the accumulation of pagan influence...you are unnecessarily burdening yourself with more law.

It is important to know where things come from, where they started, and what they mean? Yes. Does it mean that we should take a look at accepted practices under the microscope. Absolutely. But it doesn't mean that we have to take drastic measures to make sure we are pronouncing things appropriately and have to take up ancient Jewish rituals and practices that themselves were only a torchbearer for the completion made by the Messiah. As Paul would say, this doesn't free us to live in abject immorality or we should live as we have a get out of jail free card, but we also live in grace through faith...and we aren't subject to observatory laws. My two cents.


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## happilyMRSinYAHUSHA

Hi everyone well I dnt have access to a computer now I only have my cell so I cant rly say all that id like at this time.


I certainly have learned that there is no point in arguing about this. I just posted hoping to find some like minded friends. I am not in the hebrew roots movement and I dont think ppl who believe in the trinity are evil bc I know thats the prevalent way that ppl are introduced to the gospel. But I believe yahuah will call them away from that teaching in the same way he did for me n my man. I pronounce the names this way but im not saying that everyone else is required to. But I do believe the only truth is the son of god NOT god the son.


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## Mr The Other

I have my religion. I am not telling you which one.

Let us all have a big group hug!


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## Ynot

I don't really care what anybody chooses to believe. I just thought it was rather funny to hear someone use such a flawed source to base an argument on. Especially when they are telling the other person to base an argument on something real. As for myself, I don't choose to believe anything. I choose to KNOW. I KNOW that god exists, I don't believe. And I certainly don't need some book, written by man, translated by man, edited by man, etc etc. to explain to me what I should believe and how I should believe it. One of God's greatest gifts was our ability to reason. Why some people choose to hide from reason and stand behind a book is beyond me.


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## FormerSelf

Ynot said:


> I don't really care what anybody chooses to believe. I just thought it was rather funny to hear someone use such a flawed source to base an argument on. Especially when they are telling the other person to base an argument on something real. As for myself, I don't choose to believe anything. I choose to KNOW. I KNOW that god exists, I don't believe. And I certainly don't need some book, written by man, translated by man, edited by man, etc etc. to explain to me what I should believe and how I should believe it. One of God's greatest gifts was our ability to reason. Why some people choose to hide from reason and stand behind a book is beyond me.


The Bible is flawed depending on who you ask. Sure, some folks may have some vested interest in just blind faith and never dare to ask the hard questions of canon, but there are also folks who are vested into discrediting the Bible's source accuracy...not really understanding that it arose out of oral tradition and must be looked at in terms of the text on hand...not just hypothetical reconstructions...but then again, I don't adhere entirely to Documentary Hypothesis. 

On a literary basis alone, the Bible is a perfectly balanced and arranged, complete work...nothing is there that shouldn't be and all these other pseudepigraphic works are trash. Yet, I know many feel the same way about Paul's theological contributions to the new testament.

I myself, have gone through the woes of taking the red pill, where I had to question everything I learned...but once I stuck through it...I saw that it was just my limited understanding that was stretched. But truly, the Bible is a solid portal to the heart of God...but, it does require a measure of faith. 

@MRSinYAHUSA...I am interested to know more about your approach to beliefs...as I know of non-Trinitarians such the Oneness movement from those in the United Pentecostal Church, but the recent Yahuah business, I guess I have never heard. I admit I went of an a tangent about hebraic roots.

As for Jesus' inclusion in the "trinity", that is based specifically in John 1: 1-18, seeming to suggest some divine nature of a pre-established eternal sense...the Word being with God and _is_ God since the beginning.


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## Mr The Other

Ynot said:


> I don't really care what anybody chooses to believe. I just thought it was rather funny to hear someone use such a flawed source to base an argument on. Especially when they are telling the other person to base an argument on something real. As for myself, I don't choose to believe anything. I choose to KNOW. I KNOW that god exists, I don't believe. And I certainly don't need some book, written by man, translated by man, edited by man, etc etc. to explain to me what I should believe and how I should believe it. One of God's greatest gifts was our ability to reason. Why some people choose to hide from reason and stand behind a book is beyond me.


Oooh! Are you not so intellectual and clever! And better that us! Wow!


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## Ynot

Mr The Other said:


> Oooh! Are you not so intellectual and clever! And better that us! Wow!


I don't claim to be intellectual, clever or better than anyone. As I said I really don't care what you choose to believe. As for me I choose to know. To each their own.


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## arbitrator

I'll not attempt to settle any ecclesiastical arguments here, but will only say that, as a proud member of the United Methodist Church and an ardent follower of its founder, John Wesley, I am, in effect, a Trinitarian.

Greatly adhering to John 3:16, (KJV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believe that in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


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## happilyMRSinYAHUSHA

“DO NOT CLING TO ME, FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER, BUT GO TO MY BRETHREN AND SAY TO THEM, I AM ASCENDING TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” JOHN 20:17

1st Timothy 2:5-6. “For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus."

"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." (i corinthians8:4)

“for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)

Exodus 7:1 Moses is called elohim “See I have made you as God to Pharaoh.” Psalm 82:6-7 refers to the saints as elohim “I said you are gods, and all of you are children of the most high God.”

john 17:21 that ALL of them may be ONE, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May they ALSO BE in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNITY. 

“I am come in my Father’s name.” (John 5:43) 

REVELATION 3: 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

these are just some versus i pulled up to show anyone who is interested. i believe u must just feel it in your heart not read it to truly believe. i was also a trinitarian without understanding until me n my husbands first meeting/date, he explained his journey and what he believed- that the messiah is not the most high- and i jumped out of my seat full of joy and said yes! that is what i believe too!! 

my great grandfather and grandfather on my dads side owned nondenominational trinitarian churches. my moms side has nuns and other titles i dont remember in the catholic church, but i never gave my heart to christ or believed. 

when i was 19, one night after reading the bible for kicks, i prayed "god if you are real and this is your word given to me to follow, please let me know and i will follow"

that night i awoke several times and stared at a big crisp blue light in my room. i have terrible eyesight n everything is very blurry to me, but this light was crisp like lightening. i just stared at it, asking no questions. i know i was truly awake as i watched and fell back asleep multiple times. in the morning i shot out of bed and thought oh my goodness what was i staring at thru the night??!! i took this as the answer to my prayer and so began my journey.


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## Aspydad

happilyMRSinYAHUSHA said:


> “DO NOT CLING TO ME, FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER, BUT GO TO MY BRETHREN AND SAY TO THEM, I AM ASCENDING TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” JOHN 20:17
> 
> 1st Timothy 2:5-6. “For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus."
> 
> "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." (i corinthians8:4)
> 
> “for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
> 
> Exodus 7:1 Moses is called elohim “See I have made you as God to Pharaoh.” Psalm 82:6-7 refers to the saints as elohim “I said you are gods, and all of you are children of the most high God.”
> 
> john 17:21 that ALL of them may be ONE, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May they ALSO BE in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNITY.
> 
> “I am come in my Father’s name.” (John 5:43)
> 
> REVELATION 3: 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
> 
> these are just some versus i pulled up to show anyone who is interested. i believe u must just feel it in your heart not read it to truly believe. i was also a trinitarian without understanding until me n my husbands first meeting/date, he explained his journey and what he believed- that the messiah is not the most high- and i jumped out of my seat full of joy and said yes! that is what i believe too!!
> 
> my great grandfather and grandfather on my dads side owned nondenominational trinitarian churches. my moms side has nuns and other titles i dont remember in the catholic church, but i never gave my heart to christ or believed.
> 
> when i was 19, one night after reading the bible for kicks, i prayed "god if you are real and this is your word given to me to follow, please let me know and i will follow"
> 
> that night i awoke several times and stared at a big crisp blue light in my room. i have terrible eyesight n everything is very blurry to me, but this light was crisp like lightening. i just stared at it, asking no questions. i know i was truly awake as i watched and fell back asleep multiple times. in the morning i shot out of bed and thought oh my goodness what was i staring at thru the night??!! i took this as the answer to my prayer and so began my journey.



I do not question that you believe in God and that Jesus walked the earth – but, that is not enough!! Please keep in mind that even Jesus was tempted by Satan and we are to expect no less from the Prince of Death – I truly believe that Satan promotes here on earth the concept that Jesus is not God (of course Satan is a liar!!)

It is very clear in the Bible - which by the way is the result of many books and brought together by the Church at the direction and power of the Holy Spirit. The concept of the Trinity was written about around 150 AD but was certainly understood by the very disciples who walked with Jesus here on this earth (Read the Gospel of John – first thing he says is that the Word was God!!! Hopefully, you have the intellect to understand that Jesus is the Word!!


To claim that Jesus is less than God is the same as rejecting Jesus and not accepting him into your heart.

The concept of the Trinity is obvious and is certainly clear - just a few facts for you:

Divine Messiah predicted in the Old Testament
Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”1


“Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”


John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"


This disciple realized, because of Jesus’ resurrection, who Jesus really was -- and humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship.

John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”


It couldn’t be clearer than it is here: Jesus’ highly educated listeners understood His claim of deity. They only had two possible responses: to humble themselves and bow before Him as the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. Unfortunately they chose the latter option. But notice that Jesus doesn’t argue with their accusation, because it was accurate. He really was claiming to be God

John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.” 


This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!

Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”


In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh

The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi
Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”


Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.

•	Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.” 


“Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him.

Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”


This was a radical statement coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet -- especially calling a human being “Mighty God”; but one that God fulfilled centuries later in Christ


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## SimplyAmorous

I'm somewhere between the Atheist and the Christian... I would call myself a DEIST...










The Christian would call me a heretic because I don't believe in the virgin birth / the trinity or the original sin doctrine.. I sat under christian teachings most of my life..I enjoyed youth group in my teen years.... yet I always questioned... Years ago I took to studying where all of these Doctrines originated from ...the men who handled them.....and realized I had more in common with the Heretics of old -in my thinking/ reasoning ...(One could be burned at the stake back then for questioning)..I applaud religious freedom and the Separation of Church & State.. 

..and the Atheist might say I am too spiritually minded as I still believe (or am inclined to) that something created all of THIS...where does love spring from? Justice, our conscience...that we are wonderfully made...for a plan and a purpose...so I am screwed, I don't fit in anywhere !!

But neither do I hold one's religious beliefs against them.. our oldest son is a Worship Leader and much enjoys his Church, many of our friends are Christians...they accept me for my wayward views.. 

One of my favorite debaters was Christopher Hitches (atheist) and my favorite Christian artist was Keith Green... I find his music deeply moving & inspiring... even if I am not a christian anymore... 

In a nut shell...this is how I feel... "To me, it matters not what anyone believes, because if their belief helps / uplifts them to be that better person/ that good example to mankind ....more helpful to society as a whole in this crazy selfish world, then I say .... "Live and let be", cause I think we all have MORE in common than NOT in common if we could just look beyond our "Creeds"

One of my favorite websites is Religious Tolerance.org - they are a multi-faith group consisting of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters, such as belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists, what form the afterlife may take, etc.....can read their Statement of beliefs here

One thing all religions agree on is "The Golden Rule".. 

This is a fine write up to WHY the Ethic of Reciprocity is particularly important in our world today...

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions


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## happy as a clam

Mr The Other said:


> I have my religion. I am not telling you which one.
> 
> *Let us all have a big group hug!*


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## Ynot

SimplyAmorous, I agree whole heartedly with your post. I too am a Deist, I just didn't feel like taking the time to post the stuff you did.


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## Aspydad

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm somewhere between the Atheist and the Christian... I would call myself a DEIST...
> 
> 
> The Christian would call me a heretic because I don't believe in the virgin birth / the trinity or the original sin doctrine.. I sat under christian teachings most of my life..I enjoyed youth group in my teen years.... yet I always questioned... Years ago I took to studying where all of these Doctrines originated from ...the men who handled them.....and realized I had more in common with the Heretics of old -in my thinking/ reasoning ...(One could be burned at the stake back then for questioning)..I applaud religious freedom and the Separation of Church & State..
> 
> ..and the Atheist might say I am too spiritually minded as I still believe (or am inclined to) that something created all of THIS...where does love spring from? Justice, our conscience...that we are wonderfully made...for a plan and a purpose...so I am screwed, I don't fit in anywhere !!
> 
> But neither do I hold one's religious beliefs against them.. our oldest son is a Worship Leader and much enjoys his Church, many of our friends are Christians...they accept me for my wayward views..


The formation of my beliefs is result of the opposite of what yours was. I was raised Catholic but we hardly went to Church growing up – Christmas, Easter and maybe a few other times. I was required to do the first communion thing and then the confirmation thing – I did this to please my parents and I did not buy into the religion thing – how do you know which religion is right?? Very confused when younger – actually had many friends that were Jewish and actually I had no idea what the difference was.

In the beginning of college, my belief system was Deist (even though I had never heard the term) Very similar to your feeling now that humans must have been created and that we did not just happen to be here. I actually believed in reincarnation and just hoped when I died and came back to earth I would come back as a human and not some animal!! So I sure better be a good son as I wanted whoever created me to give me some type of favoritism when the time came to come back to earth once I had died. I always thought someone would think I was crazy – so I never told anyone of my beliefs. As I consider what a Deist is now – I guess I was not alone and really was not that crazy – because a Deist by definition can just make up whatever beliefs they want within their own reason – because it all about HUMAN REASON RIGHT??

Not that I did not try to pray to God – I did – but the silence was just unbearable to me – I just could not hear anything coming back to me and I just could not stand that – so I stopped doing that.

I did not discover Jesus through a church – I actually accepted Jesus who was part of the Trinity through two of my Fraternity Brothers that were older than me and I barely knew them – for whatever reason (I have never asked them) they invited me to a college basketball game – but, we met to eat first and that’s where they brought out the Bible and showed me the Gospel and some versus from the Old Testament that just blew me away. I was like wow – never knew that. But, it really was not that that got me – I felt the Holy Spirit for the first time – and when I prayed to accept Jesus into my heart – THE SILENCE WAS GONE – I HEARD JESUS!!

My life did change after that even though I did continue some of my ways – I liked girls and I liked to party and I would party hard – drinking was a problem for me. However, this did not stop me from studying the Bible and going to church – which was new for me. I actually almost died from alcohol poisoning just after accepting Jesus into my life – had to go to the Hospital as my roommates could not wake me up at about 3 am in the morning . I got home around noon time the that day and actually had my first date with this girl that I met at church at 5 pm the very day I almost died – this was a Sunday and I actually was supposed to see her at Church that morning but for obvious reasons did not make it. This girls is the one I ended up marrying and have been with her since December of 1983. I have never been drunk again since that day and this girl that I ended up marrying - to me, was a gift from God. At that time she did not drink at all – out of respect for her parents (Southern Baptist) – I also stopped drinking as well since she did not drink. I went from an average student who was going downhill fast to an above average student and the rest is history.

This was all before the advent of the Internet – all I had to go by was what I read in the Bible and what I was taught at Church. I too began to question allot of what was preached about sex, drinking, tithing, and many more matters in the Church – but, I was good and tried to follow the teachings. However, once I able to access more information – via the internet – I came to realize that there are many lies and abuses in the Church – I tried to find a Church that in my opinion did not have these lies – and have never been able to find one. However, I have never turned my back on Jesus – and the reason is because the Gospel message is simple – accept Jesus as your Lord (GOD) and Savior and all sins are washed away – period. I struggle with determining what is sin – is looking at porn sin? is not tithing sin? is looking at another women – other than my wife sin? And so many more things. I realize that if I listened to most of these preachers – I am just a sinner and cannot ever measure up. If it were not for the simple Gospel – I would have turned from the church along time ago – but, that is what Satan wants – is it not? Satan is actually who says one is not good enough - no one can measure up to the laws that God has given – right? But, the Gospel says that if you accept Christ – you are Justified in Gods eyes – or another words – it is just as if you never sinned!! 

So I still go to church – I listen to the sermons and let the Holy Spirit talk to me – not a preacher. The silence is Gone when I pray and I am very blessed to live on this earth that God created for me and you!! I would not change one thing about my life from the very beginning as GOD has blessed me beyond what I could ever expect and I look forward to the day that I will meet Jesus in Heaven.

SimplyAmerous – I pray that you will hear Jesus someday as I do NOT think that He has given up on you! You do not seem like someone who likes silence. Is that not why you longed for such a large family?? I know you were an only child – parents divorced – Dad did not spend quality time with you like your husband does with your kids – did you not hate the silence? Is that why you would go and spend time at your friend’s house all the time – you liked the noise of a family? It just behooves me that you would choose silence with regards to your spiritual life – is it not deafening?


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## Pooh Bear

Why are you asking? Are you looking for support from others who believe the way you do for some reason? Evil is a pretty strong word. The early church developed the Trinity out of a strong sense of trying to determine who God is. It has lasted in many churches for centuries. You can certainly go your own way but I think that saying that a concept that is so meaningful to many people is evil is devisive and hurtful. Is that your intent?


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## SimplyAmorous

Aspydad said:


> SimplyAmerous – I pray that you will hear Jesus someday as I do NOT think that He has given up on you! You do not seem like someone who likes silence. Is that not why you longed for such a large family?? I know you were an only child – parents divorced – Dad did not spend quality time with you like your husband does with your kids – did you not hate the silence? Is that why you would go and spend time at your friend’s house all the time – you liked the noise of a family? It just behooves me that you would choose silence with regards to your spiritual life – is it not deafening?


Oh My Aspydad...what a sincere ending you have here in this post....you are right, I am not one who enjoys the "silence" -which could represent many things.....I hope God hasn't given up on me... I am not one to boast I have all the answers - I want to remain open, reachable to TRUTH.... but I must remain a Realist.. it's what has kept my feet on the ground...I feel this so often gets in the way of Faith... too many voices claiming they have the "corner of truth"...

Where I came from, I have no desire to go back..it's an opposite experience of yours ... I feel freer / less bound mentality, less judgmental of myself & others NOT having all the answers over when I was taught I DID..but they warred against my mind... . 

My Pastor & me used to talk on the phone when I 1st started going to church after we had our 1st son..I was eager to learn...yet I was such a questioner... he told me one day I was "too cerebral".... I can look back at this & laugh... ya know but at the time.. it's like I was sinning to question....I have since come to accept myself AS I AM... that GOD himself made me this way.. rest in it...to not be too hard on myself, as it has a way of stealing my JOY...

You sound like a wonderful person..I have met others like yourself ... who were in a really bad place at one time... then found Jesus (& through that experience found their wives too, changing the course of their lives).. beautiful stories ..

Oldest son has a friend similar..... he was in jail/ drugs womanizer...found God, became a dedicated well loved Youth Leader...such people make the finest mentors....he's married now, kid on the way... a real turn around.. 

I was one of those good girls who tried to follow the straight & narrow, after all I said the sinner's prayer...I never drank, didn't smoke, stood up for the Underdog.....I wanted to do "right"...but yet.. so many things they teach ,seemed the letter of the LAW.. some erotic arousal....watching an R -rated movie, touching my BF.. I couldn't help but think what God required...he was a pure KILL JOY... I struggled with GUILT / shame ...

I once burned a Guns & Roses CD thinking I was doing this for GOD...only to end up cranking "Welcome to the Jungle" up on the radio in the car anyway....what was the point !! it was hopeless. I was suppressing living & enjoying my life -I wasn't hurting anyone !... I wasted so much energy worrying I was a bad person cause I couldn't live up to HIS decrees.. but neither did I WANT TO!...

I used to get on my H for not reading the bible more...I scolded him for sneaking some porn, I really think it was less about me being upset but more about his dishonoring God -I understood "boys will be boys".. heck I loved my steamy romance novels, who was I to judge him [email protected]#

Can I say... he's happy I lost my religion.... it's had it's benefits ... I have less noise in my head...to spend on enjoying my life/ our lives ... its not that I have lost my conscience , Proverbs and Eccl are my favorite books in the Bible, so much wisdom there.... but I do "cherry pick" admittedly.. I'm not a Moral Relativist...I care too much about ethics to go there. 

I have never HAD a "spiritual" experience where I felt something LIFT...as you have...it's interesting to hear others experiences though... it fascinates me.. I also had Mormons come to our door & share theirs..

Trinity or none, Virgin birth or just a man...Parables are GOOD!....at the end of the day....this holds my understanding ....


----------



## jld

I love that quote, SA!


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## Pooh Bear

happilyMRSinYAHUSHA said:


> “DO NOT CLING TO ME, FOR I HAVE NOT YET ASCENDED TO MY FATHER, BUT GO TO MY BRETHREN AND SAY TO THEM, I AM ASCENDING TO MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER, AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” JOHN 20:17
> 
> 1st Timothy 2:5-6. “For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus."
> 
> "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." (i corinthians8:4)
> 
> “for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28)
> 
> Exodus 7:1 Moses is called elohim “See I have made you as God to Pharaoh.” Psalm 82:6-7 refers to the saints as elohim “I said you are gods, and all of you are children of the most high God.”
> 
> john 17:21 that ALL of them may be ONE, Father, JUST AS you are in me and I am in you. May they ALSO BE in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete UNITY.
> 
> “I am come in my Father’s name.” (John 5:43)
> 
> REVELATION 3: 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
> 
> these are just some versus i pulled up to show anyone who is interested. i believe u must just feel it in your heart not read it to truly believe. i was also a trinitarian without understanding until me n my husbands first meeting/date, he explained his journey and what he believed- that the messiah is not the most high- and i jumped out of my seat full of joy and said yes! that is what i believe too!!
> 
> my great grandfather and grandfather on my dads side owned nondenominational trinitarian churches. my moms side has nuns and other titles i dont remember in the catholic church, but i never gave my heart to christ or believed.
> 
> when i was 19, one night after reading the bible for kicks, i prayed "god if you are real and this is your word given to me to follow, please let me know and i will follow"
> 
> that night i awoke several times and stared at a big crisp blue light in my room. i have terrible eyesight n everything is very blurry to me, but this light was crisp like lightening. i just stared at it, asking no questions. i know i was truly awake as i watched and fell back asleep multiple times. in the morning i shot out of bed and thought oh my goodness what was i staring at thru the night??!! i took this as the answer to my prayer and so began my journey.


I'm happy for you.  I love the Trinity but if God speaks to you in this way that is wonderful.


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## Pooh Bear

Aspydad said:


> As I think more about the contradiction example that I gave above about God being seen or not seen, I actually had another thought.
> 
> How crazy is the thought of an Atheist analyzing the Bible in it’s entirety and determining that there are contradictions? Consider the following:
> 
> First, the Bible was created by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and it is also by the Holy Spirit that resides in the believer that the massage of scripture is heard and understood. Get it – as an Atheist you are without the Holy Spirit – so you a deaf to the much of the message to start with!!
> 
> Second, I will give an example of how ridiculous the concept of an Atheist examination of the Gospel is: The books Mathew, Mark, Luke where all written for the believer (again - one who has the Holy Spirit within their being) and the book of John was written for the unbeliever and believer- 95% of the information in John is only in this book - where 95% of the information in the other three Gospels are repeated in each book or Gospel. Therefore, for an Atheist to even examine a book not written to them, is actually again – ridiculous.
> 
> Any response YNOT??


I'm curious. What do you mean by Matthew, Mark, and Luke were written for the believer? And John was written for the unbeliever and the believer? What difference does it make whether John was different or not?


----------



## Pooh Bear

Aspydad said:


> I do not question that you believe in God and that Jesus walked the earth – but, that is not enough!! Please keep in mind that even Jesus was tempted by Satan and we are to expect no less from the Prince of Death – I truly believe that Satan promotes here on earth the concept that Jesus is not God (of course Satan is a liar!!)
> 
> It is very clear in the Bible - which by the way is the result of many books and brought together by the Church at the direction and power of the Holy Spirit. The concept of the Trinity was written about around 150 AD but was certainly understood by the very disciples who walked with Jesus here on this earth (Read the Gospel of John – first thing he says is that the Word was God!!! Hopefully, you have the intellect to understand that Jesus is the Word!!
> 
> 
> To claim that Jesus is less than God is the same as rejecting Jesus and not accepting him into your heart.
> 
> The concept of the Trinity is obvious and is certainly clear - just a few facts for you:
> 
> Divine Messiah predicted in the Old Testament
> Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”1
> 
> 
> “Immanuel” literally means: “God with us.” See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was “God with us.”
> 
> 
> John 20:27-29: “Then He said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’ Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’"
> 
> 
> This disciple realized, because of Jesus’ resurrection, who Jesus really was -- and humbly worshiped Him and declared His true identity: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus not only accepts this declaration, but blesses all of the disciples -- and all of us today -- who come to the same realization and place of humble worship.
> 
> John 10:30-33: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’”
> 
> 
> It couldn’t be clearer than it is here: Jesus’ highly educated listeners understood His claim of deity. They only had two possible responses: to humble themselves and bow before Him as the Magi and the disciples had done earlier, or reject His claim and judge Him as a blasphemer. Unfortunately they chose the latter option. But notice that Jesus doesn’t argue with their accusation, because it was accurate. He really was claiming to be God
> 
> John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”
> 
> 
> This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!
> 
> Matthew 14:32-33: “And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God.’”
> 
> 
> In a Jewish culture, only the one true God can be worshiped; their actions show that they acknowledged Jesus as being divine. And Jesus didn’t correct them or say, “Don’t you realize that I’m just a mortal prophet? Stop worshiping me!” Rather, He accepted their worship, knowing He really was God in human flesh
> 
> The baby Jesus worshiped by the Magi
> Matthew 2:11: “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.”
> 
> 
> Along with being led to the site where Jesus was born, these Magi were apparently informed by God about Jesus’ divine identity, and so they responded appropriately by worshiping Him.
> 
> •	Daniel 7:13-14: “There before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven . . . He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
> 
> 
> “Son of Man” was the primary title Jesus used for Himself -- and this passage shows that this was a clear and strong claim of deity. And in Mark, the earliest of the four Gospels, He also included the unmistakable phrase, “coming on the clouds of heaven” and applied it to Himself (Mark 14:62). His listeners got the point, refused to believe it, and added it to their reasons to try to kill Him.
> 
> Isaiah 9:6: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
> 
> 
> This was a radical statement coming from a monotheistic Jewish prophet -- especially calling a human being “Mighty God”; but one that God fulfilled centuries later in Christ


Grace and Jesus's blood are not enough to cover our limited understanding of who God is? I disagree. I think we cannot possibly know all that God is but it is in the trying to understand that we make the connection with God. The Holy Spirit works through us - yes. But does that mean we are perfectly capable of listening? No. We are human. God knows that.


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## SimplyAmorous

How many knows the where, the when , what went into making "the Creed"... how *opposing Views *were very evident from various followers of Jesus , so evident, 300 yrs after Jesus death about his Being born of a Virgin, After Constantine ....

*1.** The council of Nicea in 325* said that "Jesus Christ is God"...

*2*. *The council of Constantinople 381* said that "the Holy Spirit is God"...

*3*. *The council of Chalcedon 451* said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God"... 

This makes sense to me >> HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE TRINITY - from a logical point of view.. but again... this is one of the reasons I can never call myself a christian again...I do have issues with the Trinity ! 

I have this book on my shelf, only read a few chapters though..

When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome 



> The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots within the Christian community as it was forming, however, is a story that is rarely told.
> 
> Richard E. Rubenstein takes readers to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, where a divisive argument over the divinity of Jesus Christ was underway. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer feared for the survival of their monotheistic faith, but they found themselves in different camps—led by two charismatic men—on the topic of Christian theology.
> 
> Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preached that Jesus, though holy, is less than God, while Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, saw any diminution of Jesus' godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stood Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, in search of a solution that would keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.


At the end of the day, I see Religion a lot like Politics (especially back in the day before the printing press).... whomever wins the debate, wins the power.. and gets to teach the masses..add a charismatic Leader / Teacher...some fanatics.. burning at the stake, fear of Hell... anything can take off ....just look at the endless denominations, cults testify to this... 

In a world of Democracy & Freedom (I thank God I live in the United States..and for our Founding Fathers)... I will continue to look at others & ask myself.. do they possess the Fruits of the spirit , do they live "the Golden Rule"... or even the "Platinum Rule " ~ "Do unto others as they would like you to do unto them". Heck multitudes fall short here too!

But really... these things, if you can find them in a person...it just spells a good person...someone stable , grounded...honorable..










I mean, we all miss it sometimes, but do we want to make it right..do we choose the right thing if we've hurt another, leaving our gift at the alter -to go to our brother or sister ?? Sometimes we'll be rejected (and it hurts) but that's what I look for in people.. *and what moves me *when I see it in others..is Justice at the heart of your cause..for a better world for us all to live in ...or something else? 

There is a place for humility we don't often see in today's world.. because of this, Jesus's teachings - Yes, I greatly appreciate.. these sort of good people do stand out, of course they don't make news headlines, they only touch hearts on a smaller scale .... 

Seems only the worst of the worst make Headlines.... that's our world.. that's what we celebrate.. the Kardashians, Riches that is never enough, all the drama...lovely examples for our young people (I have never watched this show mind you)...but God help us all. 

Then on top of all of this.. all the various ways to INTERPRET the bible also...



> •	*Literal:* The Fundamentalist view
> 
> •	*Historical Docoment*
> 
> •	*Midrash*: Jewish Rabbinical approach to interpretation sought to understand the literal, and then expand the teachings to contemporary issues. "light to heavy"
> 
> •	*Pesher*: Exegetical method that suggests the prophetic writings contain hidden eschatological significance, or divine mystery. Jesus used this method on several occasions. (Lk 4:16)
> 
> •	*Allegorical*: Assumes the text has a meaning other than what the literal wording says---- a parable is a short allegory with a Moral meaning. Allogories are often used in Literature.
> 
> •	*Typological:* seeks to discover a correspondence between people and events of the past and of the present or future. Matt. 12:40 - Jesus parallels the experience of Jonah with his own death. Moses was a type of Christ, who brought the people out of bondage, and was rejected by his own. Isaac when he was offered up by Abraham.
> 
> •	*Christological: *Firstly, Jesus, and then the writers of the New testament had a decidedly Christocentric approach to Bible interpretation. Old testament passages were viewed in light of the new knowledge they now had about the person and work of the Messiah.
> 
> •	*Functional:* Fitting scripture into current day context, disregarding the historical context.


So yeah... do I have all this figured out.. absolutely NOT.. but I'm Ok with that !


----------



## Aspydad

SimplyAmorous said:


> How many knows the where, the when , what went into making "the Creed"... how *opposing Views *were very evident from various followers of Jesus , so evident, 300 yrs after Jesus death about his Being born of a Virgin, After Constantine ....
> 
> *1.** The council of Nicea in 325* said that "Jesus Christ is God"...
> 
> *2*. *The council of Constantinople 381* said that "the Holy Spirit is God"...
> 
> *3*. *The council of Chalcedon 451* said that "Jesus Christ is both man and God"...
> 
> This makes sense to me >> HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE TRINITY - from a logical point of view.. but again... this is one of the reasons I can never call myself a christian again...I do have issues with the Trinity !
> 
> I have this book on my shelf, only read a few chapters though..
> 
> When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the day, I see Religion a lot like Politics (especially back in the day before the printing press).... whomever wins the debate, wins the power.. and gets to teach the masses..add a charismatic Leader / Teacher...some fanatics.. burning at the stake, fear of Hell... anything can take off ....just look at the endless denominations, cults testify to this...
> 
> In a world of Democracy & Freedom (I thank God I live in the United States..and for our Founding Fathers)... I will continue to look at others & ask myself.. do they possess the Fruits of the spirit , do they live "the Golden Rule"... or even the "Platinum Rule " ~ "Do unto others as they would like you to do unto them". Heck multitudes fall short here too!
> 
> But really... these things, if you can find them in a person...it just spells a good person...someone stable , grounded...honorable..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, we all miss it sometimes, but do we want to make it right..do we choose the right thing if we've hurt another, leaving our gift at the alter -to go to our brother or sister ?? Sometimes we'll be rejected (and it hurts) but that's what I look for in people.. *and what moves me *when I see it in others..is Justice at the heart of your cause..for a better world for us all to live in ...or something else?
> 
> There is a place for humility we don't often see in today's world.. because of this, Jesus's teachings - Yes, I greatly appreciate.. these sort of good people do stand out, of course they don't make news headlines, they only touch hearts on a smaller scale ....
> 
> Seems only the worst of the worst make Headlines.... that's our world.. that's what we celebrate.. the Kardashians, Riches that is never enough, all the drama...lovely examples for our young people (I have never watched this show mind you)...but God help us all.
> 
> Then on top of all of this.. all the various ways to INTERPRET the bible also...
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah... do I have all this figured out.. absolutely NOT.. but I'm Ok with that !


SimplyAmerous

I love your mind!! I must confess to you – you remind me of my Grandmother and your husband reminds me of my Grandfather – as a couple they were very similar. When Grandma walked in the room it just lit up! Grandpa was a very humble quit man - could hardly get a word in when grandma was there - She was brilliant and could have been anything she wanted – but, she chose to be a Mom first – married at age 19 – she was one of 10 kids from three different wives – she was from the middle wife who died when my grandma was five. She actually has a half-sister that is younger than my Dad! Her Dad was having kids until he was 65. She was mainly raised by her older siblings and actually would switch houses every few years when she was a teenager – not always being with her father. Her Dad was an Italian Business Owner and worked non-stop – so all of the family just helped out as needed. Her older brother (from the first wife who died also) took over the business from her Dad and turned the business into huge deal where he employed 500 plus people including his Father when he was older. My grandma wanted a huge family as well but was only able to have two sons. Grandpa was a fulltime fireman and a part time home remodeler – he always had two to three jobs going on – worked seven days a week so that Grandma could stay home and raise the kids. They did not send their kids to college – when they turned 18 they were on their own. Grandma went to college when her youngest turned 18 – made straight A’s and received a bachelors in Mathematics and a Masters in Education – and she became a fulltime teacher until she retired at the age of 70!! She taught high school age kids and just loved it!! You know SA – you could be whatever you wanted as well – I am a very good judge and I tell you that you are brilliant – maybe a little too brilliant though?? My grandpa was a little different than your husband in that he was damaged – when my Grandma was 20 – and had two young boys (they are 11 months apart in age!!) my Grandpa was drafted into World War II and was sent to the front lines – he was blown out of a building in France and was in a hospital in England for a month – then sent right back to France where he served as a Fireman at one of the airports. He hardly talked about what he went through but it was obvious to all - especially my Grandma that he was changed when he came back. My Grandma - age 20 - two kids - husband gone for three years all alone!! - She was tough as nails I tell you!!

Back to your post – I have been to Rome and have studied the History of the Catholic Church and will tell you – it is a Miracle that the Church was based out of Rome!! This should not have happened!! If you look at what was happening there around 400 AD you would be crazy to believe that the Catholic Church could start there. I mean Christians were burned at the stake there – I saw where this happened – you had people worshiping all kinds of Gods and Idols – ever heard of the Roman Bath Houses?? I mean these people were corrupt to the hilt!! 

But what did the Gospel say?? Peter, upon this Rock I will build my Church – Peters name means little rock – and the big rock is who Peter said Jesus was – the Christ!! And yes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit – this is the big Rock. Did you know that the very first Church built hundreds of years after Peter was crucified (upside down as he did not want to be crucified like Jesus) was built right over where he was buried??? When you would walk into the first Church – to the left was a room that was right over the spot where Peter was Crucified and the very back / center of the Church is on top of Peters burial spot!! The first Church literally was built right on top of the little Rock just as Jesus Said – while at the same time was built upon the Large Rock – and that is Jesus Christ who is God!!

Now tell me, what are the odds of this occurring ?? in Rome – are you kidding me?? On top of Peter hundreds of years later?? You use Human Reasoning right?? Expalin this to me.


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## southbound

I'm what they call in my area, an "old time Baptist." When I read stuff like this, it makes me thankful that I have God in my heart and can get answers through prayer and don't rely totally on what somebody tells me or what i try to decipher from the Bible. The Bible is a great book, but I'm not smart enough to figure it all out in my own brain, nor do I have enough confidence in someone else to "explain" it to me; there's about as many beliefs and ideas out there as there are fish in the ocean, so I'm glad that God has power to let us know things.


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## Mr The Other

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm somewhere between the Atheist and the Christian... I would call myself a DEIST...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Christian would call me a heretic because I don't believe in the virgin birth / the trinity or the original sin doctrine.. I sat under christian teachings most of my life..I..I applaud religious freedom and the Separation of Church & State..


I would not call you a Catholic, but you seem perfectly Christian based on that. The original sin doctorine is understood by few and even the Catholic Church includes Julian of Norwich (a hero of mine).

I would also applaud the Separation of Church & State, as a Catholic.

As a scientist (proper one with a PhD), I would disagree that we are based on reason. I would also believe reason as we know it prevents us reaching God. I had a Priest explain to me that I should be willing to renounce all my beliefs in God in order to find God, as what our prejudice and reason leads us to is not God. The Zen Buddhists have a more poetic way of putting it: "If you meet Buddha on the road to enlightenment, kill him".


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## Pooh Bear

intheory said:


> The word "trinity" doesn't occur in the Bible. It was a doctrine conceived in an attempt to explain Father-Son-Holy Spirit being one.
> 
> I prefer not to understand. I like the mystery of it. I don't like "God in a box". Everyone should come to their own understandings.
> 
> Since there are approximately 30,000+ Christian denominations; seems like that's what we have decided to do. Understand it best in our own way.
> 
> I'm glad that in the U.S., we are not forced to believe or attend a church that we do not agree with.


I like the mystery of the trinity too.


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## jld

intheory said:


> I'm glad that in the U.S., *we are not forced to believe or attend a church *that we do not agree with.


Or pay for.


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## Mr The Other

TBF, there are few nations where you would be forced to follow a faith, pay for it or attend services.


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## HuggyBear

foolscotton3 said:


> I thought the epistles stated that Peter, James, and John were the "pillars of the church" in Jerusalem. They were told to preach the good news to the circumcision, and Paul and Timothy to the uncircumcised.
> 
> Didn't the gentiles from Rome come to meet peter in Galatia, and he refused them, not the other way around?


Mostly spot on... Christianity WASN'T supposed to be preached or evangelized to non-Jews. It was to the people of Israel, ONLY. That's why the "real" apostles stuck around where they were.

Paul NEVER met, saw, or even heard Jesus... he was a Roman soldier, then a Jew. It is odd that this Roman soldier was "chosen" (by the emperor, NOT Jesus) to spread this Christianity into Rome as a wonderful psyop to control the population in a declining empire.

The only nontrinitarian christians (yes, small "c" as they "choose" what is convenient in faith to them) I am aware of are mormons and jehovah's witnesses.


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## Aspydad

HuggyBear said:


> Mostly spot on... Christianity WASN'T supposed to be preached or evangelized to non-Jews. It was to the people of Israel, ONLY. That's why the "real" apostles stuck around where they were.
> 
> Paul NEVER met, saw, or even heard Jesus... he was a Roman soldier, then a Jew. It is odd that this Roman soldier was "chosen" (by the emperor, NOT Jesus) to spread this Christianity into Rome as a wonderful psyop to control the population in a declining empire.
> 
> The only nontrinitarian christians (yes, small "c" as they "choose" what is convenient in faith to them) I am aware of are mormons and jehovah's witnesses.


Not sure what the Three Pillars that are stated in this thread have to do with anything? As a matter of fact the only Pillars I have ever heard of are the Four Pillars of the Catholic Church.

Your statement above about Paul is correct in that he was a Roman citizen and he was a Jew (a son of Israel.) However, you make two completely incorrect statements which certainly cannot be backed up by any evidence: First, Paul did meet Jesus in person – read the letters that Paul wrote (yes, this was after the resurrection of Jesus from the dead – if you do not believe in the resurrection – then you obviously are not Christian so I would then wonder why you would even comment here.) Second, the Gospel was to be preached first to the Jew and then to the Gentile (again – read the Bible.) Third, a Gentile who has accepted Jesus (as God in three persons) into his heart has been grafted into the covenant that God made with Jacob – or another words – are equivalent to the Jews in Gods eyes (again – read the Bible.)

Now – given that Paul was a Roman citizen, a Tax Collector, and a prosecutor of Christians (not in a court of law – but someone who violently killed Christians – think of modern day ISIS) what are the odds that a person like this would change his entire character and worship Jesus? 

And by the way, there is no such thing as a Christian with a small “c” – one either accepts Jesus as part of the Trinity which is evident in the Gospel – or one is not a Christian – period.


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## Aspydad

foolscotton3 said:


> Gal 2:9
> and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
> (ESV)
> 
> (Again - read the Bible)
> 
> I'm not sure what the pillars of the catholic cult have to do with anything, except that Cephas didn't go to Rome.


In order for Peter to have ever set foot in Rome, you are saying that the Bible would have to state this - and if it does not state this, it cannot be true - is that your logic??

I ask you this - where in the Bible is the Bible ever mentioned? Where is it defined? 

If you take your logic - the Bible cannot be the Bible because the Bible is never mentioned.

There are those who have no comprehension as to where the Bible came from or what its purpose was / is - it seems to me that this is applicable to you.

By the way - what is a cult?? You claim that the Catholic Church is this - by what do you base your claim?

By the way - name one Church that is the True Church then - and please tell me how you justify your claim.

Also, are you claiming that the Catholic Church cannot proclaim the Gospel? And - that if one hears the Gospel and accepts Jesus Christ as their savior as a result - this person is does not have eternal life through Jesus Christ? Is that your claim? God needs your vision of a Church to spread the Gospel? Is that what you are saying?

I tell you that it is historical fact - through Roman History - not the Bible - that Peter was crucified in Rome!!

Are you trying to say that in a three hundred year period that the entire Christian community at the time - did not know just by word of mouth passed down through the generations, where Peter was killed?? (I tell you this - my Great Great Great Grandfather was born in New York City in 1845 - I know this beacuse i sat with his daughter when she was 104 years old and I was 6 (back in 1969) and she told me about her Dad - i even know his name - and I have no written record of this birth 170 years ago - cant be true right? I mean I have no written record and this was 170 years ago!!) Or for that matter where the Mother of Jesus died?? Or, how about this - that the Mother of Jesus never died and was ascended into Heaven. Oh, I forgot that is not in the “Bible” Or, how about this – the spear that pierced Jesus side on the cross – it could not have been kept by the disciples and passed down through the Generations – and now resides in the Church that sets over the resting place of Peter? How could this ever happen?

Did you ever hear of the Holy Spirit? Do you think that the Holy Spirit has the Power to have done these few things? Or – if it was Gods WILL – could this have happened? I mean – Peter buried in Rome – Mary ascended into Heaven – Spear passed down through the Generations? Could this have happened if it was Gods WILL?? 

Oh, I guess I already know the answer - if it is not in the Bible then it cannot be so.


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## Aspydad

foolscotton3 said:


> Isn't your "leader" democratically appointed by a council of human seers, to be the image of god on earth. Is your "leader" believed to speak for god, abrogate gods spoken word, is he believed to be infallible?
> 
> I would define that as a cult.
> 
> I read in acts, when the first council assembled, minus Stephen, they attempted to democratically select who would replace Stephen.
> God rejected, and God selected.
> 
> God also selected Saul, who publicly rebuked Peter for his fallibility in preaching works of initiation. Would that mean that Paul (Saul) was committing apostasy, because he did not abide in the teaching of the first Pope?
> 
> Wouldn't the True Church be established in Antioch, where Peter preached his first sermon, and the Holy Spirit converted 3000 in that day? I am not denying Peter the honors of being the rock with which God laid his Church, but I am denying your Roman claims that the Church was built on his death, the book of acts is our historic origin brother, and that book is very clear that the birth of our church was a anointing of strength, courage, wisdom, and life.
> 
> Your church origin is filled with conspiracy, deceit, political envy, human exploitation, heresy, corruption, and death.
> 
> The tragic part, is that all the violence that gets attributed to the spread of Christianity throughout the first 2 centuries, was organized and carried out by a false church, with a false Christ, and a false history, and a repugnant gospel of religious obedience and legal adherence, totally absent of GRACE.
> 
> With all the GOLD that belongs to the Vatican, they can never pay that debt.
> 
> Its a bankrupt Cult for
> a bankrupt faith.



As I thought - you have no idea what the definition of a Cult is. First requirement - it is a sect (which braches off from another) often with a leader that is solely in charge. So you think that the Catholic Church broke off from TRUE Christianity around the year 400 AD?? So you think that the Catholic Church is a small sect? Do you understand how ridiculous this sounds?? READ MY LIPS HERE – the Catholic Church brought together the BIBLE THAT YOU USE TODAY!! The Catholic Church is the Largest Church (Christian) in the WORLD!!! Impossible for it to be a cult!! And by the way – I am of the protestant persuasion and do not attend the Catholic Church. 

YOU SAY - Your church origin is filled with conspiracy, deceit, political envy, human exploitation, heresy, corruption, and death: 

Well - I can say the same thing about ALL Christian Churches – the Catholic Church does NOT hold a monopoly on SIN!!! Do you not understand that ALL fall short of what God expects and that we are only clean by the Blood of Jesus Christ?? Do you really expect a Church which is full of sinners would be perfect?? Is that the goal of God when He founded the Church??
One of the biggest lies I hear from Non-Catholic Christians is that the Church really did not progress through the Church of Rome and that there was an alternate path (the real church that no-one really knew about until the great reformation) – BIGGEST CROCK I HAVE EVER HEARD – and there is NO PROOF!!!
LOOK at History – Who was Martin Luther?? A Catholic Priest?? Maybe??

I agree with you that the concept of the POPE is FALSE –THUS I AM NOT Catholic. However, as you will see throughout the WORD OF JESUS – God can exercise His Will by whatever means He wants!! YES, through a Church full of SINNERS including a POPE.

The Protestant Church I attend – Tithe 10% of your Gross Income (is that Biblical??) Preacher stands right up there and says if you are not Tithing – don’t come here!! Really?? You know any preachers like that? From one Baptist Church to the other – is there a consensus on Tithing?? I will tell you that I have been to many in my younger days – one Church says it’s just a rule of thumb – the next Church – Oh ya, 10% of gross income? Kind of like just make it up as you go along!!

You really need to read up on your History of the Church – in the first few hundred years, it was the Christians being persecuted. As a matter of fact in Rome – Christians were burnt at the stake during those years.

And yes, the TRUE Church is built upon JESUS – and who HE is – The Father SON and Holy Spirit.

You completely ignored my question from the prior post – Can a person go to a Catholic Church – hear the Gospel and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior? If so, is this person Justified through the Blood of Christ?


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## Aspydad

FormerSelf said:


> This is a thread that is bound to go down in flames.


FormerSELF - You are a SMART MAN!!


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## froggy7777

You could not have said it any better. I absolutely agree with all that you said. AMEN!.


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