# What can I do to improve our marriage?



## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

My marriage with my husband use to be so good… We were so in love, so happy, best friends, never fought. He was perfect and everything anyone could ask for. It often felt like him and I against the world, because of unsupportive people in our lives, but neither of us cared. We never tired of spending time together, and always wanted to be near each other.

He use to care so much about me, more than anyone else ever has. He always listened, was always wondering what was on my mind. He cared about anything I cared about and was sincere about it. He remembered everything that I told him, every little detail. I felt closer to him than I have to anyone else, he felt the same. We could confide in each other about anything, with no judgement. He made a big deal out of the things that I cared about. He planned romantic and cute dates and ideas. It was perfect. Was…. That man is still there somewhere, I know it… now it’s just glimpses.

We married quickly, because we were so in love and didn’t want to wait any longer. We knew we wanted to spend our lives together anyway. We wanted to live together, start our life together, so we married so we could appease my religious family and he wanted to be respectful. My parents were not on board and have never really gotten over that, we don’t have much communication now.

Somewhere along the line things started changing. We have both always been able to open when things are wrong. If I do something wrong he tells me and I do what I can to fix it or stop it. I’ve always listened to his needs, and he has mine. He has stopped behaviours and habits that I didn’t like, I’ve done the same. We have never taken each other for granted. We just need to get through this… he’s the one for me. I can’t imagine losing him. We both want this marriage to last and get back to where we were.

Cheating isn’t something that I ever imagined in my marriage. I never wanted anyone other than my husband, and still don’t. I could never see him wanting another woman, either. But it is something that haunts our marriage…. Things started changing in our marriage before cheating happened, on both sides.

When I met my husband I had no dating experience. All my experiences were with him, and I didn’t mind. I had no desire to be with anyone else. For a while my husband said he thought we should separate because he felt guilty that he was older with more experiences, and felt that I would resent him. He thought having other experiences would be good for me, and in the long run us if I wanted to get back together. We didn’t separate, I didn’t want to at all. He is all I’ve ever wanted. Long story short…… I had sex with two men who were not my husband, because I wanted to….. I don’t know why….. I’ve regretted it ever since. That was 4 years ago, we’ve never been the same. At the time it wasn’t cheating, my husband knew…..he had suggested it…. but it evolved into cheating in his mind.

It’s still a huge problem in our marriage and has caused a ripple effect, he cheated once in retaliation. What I did was worse, so I don’t get to be upset. I have been doing everything that he’s asked me to and I will continue to. I love him so much and we have to be able to get back to where we were… We were so perfect. I know that I messed up, and have continued to mess up, but he’s my husband and the love of my life. I recently had two miscarriages, and he was so supportive and for a while it was back to old times. That man is still in there….. I just need to be the wife he deserves. I don’t know what else to do.

It feels like I do everything wrong. It’s small things, but they add up and he’s not happy anymore. He’s not trying to be mean, but it comes off that way… The other day he said “That shirt isn’t very flattering on you” which was true, and it’s nothing. It upset me far more than it should have. He wasn’t saying it to be mean at all, yet it felt like it ripped my soul in half.

We don’t celebrate anymore or exchange gifts. He use to put such an emphasis on holidays and special occasions. In terms of effort, he went all out. We always exchanged gifts on Christmas and birthdays, valentines. He would surprise me with small gifts, such as flowers or something he saw and knew I’d like. He sometimes wrote cute, romantic notes and left them in my purse so I’d find it later. Now….. nothing. I don’t need material items, that’s not what upsets me. I miss the effort. And I know I play a major role in that. If I’m not keeping him happy and he’s not happy with me, then it’s not going to be reciprocated. Holidays and special occasions come and go like they never existed.

I do anything that he asks me to and sometimes I can make him happy and it feels like old times. It doesn’t last though and I don’t know what to do. What do I do? It feels like things just get back on track and feeling normal, then I mess it up somehow. I’m ruining a really great marriage… It’s like I’m too stupid for a marriage and I’m ruining a good man.

What can I do? I’ll do anything…. Neither of us want a divorce. We are both still trying. It has to get better than this....


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## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

> We were so perfect.


No. You were not. How do I know?

This.....


> At the time it wasn’t cheating, my husband knew…..he had suggested it….


No man in a perfect relationship would suggest their wife sleep with other men. And no woman in a perfect relationship would follow through with that suggestion. This is why polyamory, threesomes, and swinging tend to, over the long haul, break up couples. Not bring them together. 

Regardless of that. It sounds like your having sex with other men was a deal-breaker for him. But he does not want to admit it and move on. Thus you are stuck in a limbo of resentment and pain. There is familiarity, but no love present. At least on his side. Have you two gone to therapy individually?


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

The essence of your problem is how it evolved into him thinking it was cheating. If he suggested you do it and he knew you were about to do it, with whom and when, how did he begin to believe it was cheating?

One of my personal opinion of defining cheating involves "secrets" or "secretly."

Talking sometimes is like diarrhea. Way too much comes out and it is crap. It might be, just maybe, to say "you should have sex with a bunch of guys" and another thing to really mean it. Very possibly he set up the whole thing, picked the guys, drove over and limousined them over to your bedroom, and helped all of you take the clothes off. Or esle maybe after you said how hot this guy looks or that guy looks he said "if you think they're so hot you should just go have sex with them." That's two different situations, and I think it makes a difference.

So how did it come to happen that he suggested it and then he somehow now thinks you cheated?


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

We were perfect in the beginning years. Differences and small problems started popping up about 3 years into our marriage. In our 4th year of marriage is when cheating occurred. We’ve been married for 8 years now. 

Our sex life was one of our only big problems. When we met, I was a virgin who had never even held hands with a man. My husband was the total opposite and has a lot of notches on the belt, so to speak. I was very self-conscious about my abilities, or lack there of, but he always assured me that it was fine and the sex was good. About 3 years into our marriage he opened up to me that he was unhappy with our sex life. It was humiliating to have him say how unhappy he was and basically how terrible I was after he had told me for years how good it was. He wasn’t trying to be hurtful, just honest so that we could work on it. That’s when we started fighting in our marriage. We spent a year struggling with our sex life and very different histories. Over the course of that year he convinced me to try it [it being sleep with another man]. He said…. it would help our marriage, he’d like it, I’d like it, it wasn’t fair for me to be with only one man in my life, I needed to be sure I was happy being with him. I was so against it. I didn’t want or need anyone else. I don’t know when exactly I changed my mind and decided to do it, but I hate myself for it. I didn’t get anything beneficial out of either experience. My husband knew the who, where, when the first time. Afterwards things got better in our marriage for a while. My husband was a lot more interested in me. I felt used and gross after having sex with another man, even though I knew him and still do. Every time I see that man I feel used all over again. My husband wanted sex a lot more often and was a lot more into it and intense. Things were going a lot better for us. I was happy that at least he was happy and it settled his thoughts of me resenting him later in life. I thought we had put it behind us. 5 months later things started going sour again. I didn’t enjoy sleeping with another man, he knew that. He said it was that man, maybe someone else would be different. That I’d wonder about other men, that one was a fluke. That later evolved into how sexy it was when he knew I was with someone else. Fighting picked up again. I hated that he even entertained the idea. I wanted him to want to protect me, keep me safe, have a bond just between each other. I hated that it was something he didn’t bring up as an interest until 4 years in. The conversation ended with me saying I wasn’t going to do it again and him saying the door was left open. A few months later one of his friends started flirting with me and coming around more often. I ignored it, but did find him attractive. His friend told me this wasn’t the first time my husband opened boundaries in a relationship, he knew. He was very easy to talk to and be around. He was [is] the only friend of my husbands that I felt very comfortable around. Before I had sex with the man, my husband said he knew we’d get along well. After a few months of getting close to him I slept with him because I wanted to. I was attracted to him, I was comfortable around him, my husband had left that door wide open and didn’t care when I told him. I shouldn’t have done it. My husband knew about it before hand. Once again, afterwards my husband was more interested in me and our marriage improved. But for a much shorter duration than the previous time. That second time was a lot different for me than the first. I didn’t feel used or dirty and don’t feel negative towards him. I regret doing it, for the sake of my marriage. My husband said that because I had feelings involved, still do (can’t help it) and liked it, it was cheating. That it was a test and I shouldn’t have had sex with anyone but him. He went out one night and didn’t come home that night. When he did came the next day he said he slept with someone. One of his friends said he’s cheated more than once, but my husband denies that and I have no proof or evidence of that, nor did I previously think about it. The second man is still a friend of my husband, and they see each other regularly. It feels like he is punishing me, which I know is all in my head. 

Since then, over the last 4 years, my husband has stuck by the decision that I cheated on him twice. If he thinks it was cheating, then it was. Either way it was wrong and all that matters is his feelings. So, I cheated on my husband with two men and I’m desperately trying to fix the marriage. He doesn’t want a divorce, and hasn’t ever mentioned it. He says he wants to fix our marriage and get back to where we were, it’s up to me. I do everything that he wants and asks me to do. It’s never enough. I don’t know what else to do. I don’t think he knows what he needs me to do either, because I do it all. He has no desire to go to therapy and it won't happen.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@desperatejane, what you did was not worse. He told you to have sex with other men.

He then cheated on you in revenge for something he told you to do? :wtf:

It's possible he set you up so he could get a hall pass to cheat on you.

He doesn't want therapy? 

If a man suggests his wife turns him into a cuckold and then gets all out of shape because she, perhaps foolishly, gave him exactly what he wanted, then the responsibility for this mess is his and his alone.

I very rarely use this term but your husband needs a course of treatment including heavy duty Man the **** pills. because he needs to man up.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The minute that a man I was married to started telling me to have sex with another man would be the minute I ended that marriage. Sorry but he isn't husband material. He doesn't respect you, protect you or care for you. This is what can happen when you marry a person whose moral vales are so very different from you own.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> The minute that a man I was married to started telling me to have sex with another man would be the minute I ended that marriage. Sorry but he isn't husband material. He doesn't respect you, protect you or care for you. This is what can happen when you marry a person whose moral vales are so very different from you own.


:iagree:
There is no marriage to save. Why would any husband encourage their wife to have sex with someone else.

Get yourself into counseling, get a attorney and file for divorce.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

No. That's not possible. What sane person would spend nearly two years setting up a situation so they could cheat scot-free? That's too far fetched. He'd never do that. He did get off scot-free. It's not something that I ever bring up, I don't deserve to bring it up. He did tell me to do it, but I still chose to do it. He didn't force anything..... He pushed for it, especially the first time, but at the end of the day it was my choice to do that to him. He's said he didn't actually want me to do it. 

He would absolutely not do marriage therapy of any sort. He doesn't believe in therapy. I would never be able to get him to go, together or on his own, nor would he support me deciding to go if I thought that was something I needed to do.

I'm not ready to walk away from my marriage. There has to be a way to fix it.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Gross.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

desperatejane said:


> No. That's not possible. What sane person would spend nearly two years setting up a situation so they could cheat scot-free? That's too far fetched. He'd never do that. He did get off scot-free. It's not something that I ever bring up, I don't deserve to bring it up.* He did tell me to do it*, but I still chose to do it. He didn't force anything..... *He pushed for it, especially the first time*, but at the end of the day it was my choice to do that to him. He's said he didn't actually want me to do it.
> 
> He would absolutely not do marriage therapy of any sort. He doesn't believe in therapy. I would never be able to get him to go, together or on his own, nor would he support me deciding to go if I thought that was something I needed to do.
> 
> I'm not ready to walk away from my marriage. There has to be a way to fix it.


Ok, if I could reach across the internet and give you a hug, I would.

After that, we would have a heart to heart. Only a manipulative bastard would encourage his wife to sleep with another man. Even more, you were a virgin when you married, you had a special tie to him, he was your one and only. Even if you guys had problems, they could have been worked thru without telling you to sleep with another man.

A faithful wife that is willing to have sex with her husband is someone to be treasured and protected.

Sex IS something that binds a couple together, something to be cherished. Your husband pushed hard for you to throw your bond away.

Yes, you could / should have said no. But he kept wearing you down. Even more, he doesn't want to discuss it with you, he would rather hold it over your head.

Manipulative bastard.

He played with matches in a gas filled room.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

Saying I’m gross isn’t helpful to me….. :frown2: I’ve gotten that enough at home.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

desperatejane said:


> Saying I’m gross isn’t helpful to me….. :frown2: I’ve gotten that enough at home.


You are not gross- the sitch is gross.

K?


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

OP,

I'm sorry you're here. Yes, your husband is a manipulative bastard. There just no other way to say it or describe it. I would end it if I was you. He coerced you into sex with other men and now wants to punish you for it.

What would you call it?


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

OP, are your parents still alive? Are you familiar with the story of the prodigal son?

Call your parents and say, "I screwed up, and I need your help" Move home. Most parents would help their kid get back on their feet. 

Don't feel like you don't have options. Goto the YWCA.

A year from now, you will be shaking your head and saying "I am so glad to be out of that situation"

How much of you isolation from your family was encouraged by your husband? Does he like keeping you isolated?


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## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

> “It's not something that I ever bring up, I don't deserve to bring it up. He did tell me to do it, but I still chose to do it. He didn't force anything..... He pushed for it, especially the first time, but at the end of the day it was my choice to do that to him. He's said he didn't actually want me to do it.”


Okay. You have bought into a narrative here. A narrative that makes it all your fault. That he holds no responsibility for what happened. Also that you and only you must fix it. This is a false construct. You are wearing a straight jacket of false suppositions. 

You need to break out of this thought process if you are going move forward.

Get professional help for yourself.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> My marriage with my husband use to be so good… We were so in love, so happy, best friends, never fought. He was perfect and everything anyone could ask for. It often felt like him and I against the world, because of unsupportive people in our lives, but neither of us cared. We never tired of spending time together, and always wanted to be near each other.
> 
> He use to care so much about me, more than anyone else ever has. He always listened, was always wondering what was on my mind. He cared about anything I cared about and was sincere about it. He remembered everything that I told him, every little detail. I felt closer to him than I have to anyone else, he felt the same. We could confide in each other about anything, with no judgement. He made a big deal out of the things that I cared about. He planned romantic and cute dates and ideas. It was perfect. Was…. That man is still there somewhere, I know it… now it’s just glimpses.
> 
> ...


I read it as he coerced you into sex with someone else. Coercion through verbal and emotional manipulation can be insidious. In the case of rape, such as when a person drugs the other, takes advantage of an unconscious person, uses physical force, or wields a weapon, the mind of the victim can better grasp that it's not his fault though not always, granted. In the case of subtler forms of coercion such as verbal or emotional manipulation, begging, and nagging, the abuser can exhaust the victim through attrition until the victim, emotionally exhausted, depressed, and resigned, finally acquiesces. The acquiescence can be particularly painful since it blurs the line between coercion and consent. It becomes coerced consent, which we should not confuse with free and willing consent. But when we do confuse them, the confusion itself can be traumatic. That's why all forms of sexual coercion are harmful.

What he did was abuse. I recognize that you might still love him and want to rebuild your marriage, and that's a choice for you to make. My previous wife emotionally and sexually abused me and I still loved her and hoped to save our marriage, so I think I understand where you're coming from here. If you truly want to preserve your marriage, then whatever your husband says, seek help for yourself. If you have the money, hire a therapist. If you can't afford that, try a twelve-step group like COSA for example. Your husband will need to decide for himself whether he too will seek help. You have no say in that.

In the end though, you can change only yourself and not him. If, in the end, things improve, then all the better and I wish you both happiness. If it doesn't improve, then consider your possibilities. If divorce seems too finite for you, then consider legal separation. If even that seems too painful, then even just sexual separation. Even with separation, you can continue to try to reconcile with your husband. Even in legal separation you can do that. You can legally separate without filing for divorce too if that makes it easier for you to accept it initially. In some cases, sexual separation can help you see the marriage more objectively.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well said Matt. Totally agree.





MattMatt said:


> @desperatejane, what you did was not worse. He told you to have sex with other men.
> 
> He then cheated on you in revenge for something he told you to do? :wtf:
> 
> ...


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

He isn’t manipulative or a manipulative bastard…. I hate when people say that. He is being treated as the bad guy here when he’s not and he isn’t here to defend himself. He is my husband. I’m not saying that he’s perfect and can do no wrong, but I didn’t come here to attack him and ream him out. He does hold it over my head, that’s no secret. He doesn’t like to discuss his cheating because, what I did was worse. I did it twice, with two of his friends. He didn’t force me to have sex with anyone. I wasn’t raped by anyone. He pushed for it, and that was wrong but I should have said no regardless. He didn’t make me do anything..... he didn’t force my legs apart and shove another man inside. I did that all on my own. He’s not perfect, but he’s not manipulative. He’s hurt, I did that. I should have stuck to my boundaries, not remoulded myself to fit the boundaries he had at the time. He wants our marriage to be fixed too. He wants to get back what we had. If he had come and written here instead, he’d probably have been told to divorce me for cheating. 

He doesn’t keep me isolated or abuse me in some other way. I don’t have much communication with my family, 1-2 short phone calls a year, but that is from my own choice. My family was very against my decisions and have never been supportive of anything, including before my husband. He agreed that separating myself from them was best and less stressful for me, but I made that choice not him. We see his friends and family all of the time. We go out together. He doesn’t isolate and manipulate me. I know that my parents would gladly help me out if I needed help, but I don’t. I need to save a marriage, not end one.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> He isn’t manipulative or a manipulative bastard…. I hate when people say that. He is being treated as the bad guy here when he’s not and he isn’t here to defend himself. He is my husband. I’m not saying that he’s perfect and can do no wrong, but I didn’t come here to attack him and ream him out. He does hold it over my head, that’s no secret. He doesn’t like to discuss his cheating because, what I did was worse. I did it twice, with two of his friends. He didn’t force me to have sex with anyone. I wasn’t raped by anyone. He pushed for it, and that was wrong but I should have said no regardless. He didn’t make me do anything..... he didn’t force my legs apart and shove another man inside. I did that all on my own. He’s not perfect, but he’s not manipulative. He’s hurt, I did that. I should have stuck to my boundaries, not remoulded myself to fit the boundaries he had at the time. He wants our marriage to be fixed too. He wants to get back what we had. If he had come and written here instead, he’d probably have been told to divorce me for cheating.
> 
> He doesn’t keep me isolated or abuse me in some other way. I don’t have much communication with my family, 1-2 short phone calls a year, but that is from my own choice. My family was very against my decisions and have never been supportive of anything, including before my husband. He agreed that separating myself from them was best and less stressful for me, but I made that choice not him. We see his friends and family all of the time. We go out together. He doesn’t isolate and manipulate me. I know that my parents would gladly help me out if I needed help, but I don’t. I need to save a marriage, not end one.


Is a part of the problem that you feel guilty for your actions? Speaking from my own experience, it's sometimes more difficult to forgive oneself than to forgive others; but to heal, we must forgive everyone including ourselves, the one we most often forget to forgive. We usually are harder on ourselves than we are on others. We all make mistakes.

I don't know all of the details, so I'll take a shot in the dark going from my own experience. My present wife sometimes (though seldom and far less than before) snaps at me or kicks me in her sleep. I accept it as just a part of who she is and don't take it personally. As for the snapping at me, she's made efforts to stop, has improved, and apologizes when it happens. As for the kicking, well, she's asleep, how can I blame her for that? You might be doing this already but I'll mention it just in case. When your husband makes a comment about your dress or whatever that you find hurtful, always give the benefit of the doubt where there is doubt and don't escalate it. Like I said, you might be doing this already.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

desperatejane, your H ambushed you, manipulating you into having sex with other men. A loving H doesn't do that! And you are so confused, you don't even consider your own posts. I believe that he's trying to get rid of you while blaming the whole thing on you. Get a lawyer fast!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

desperatejane said:


> *No. That's not possible. What sane person would spend nearly two years setting up a situation so they could cheat scot-free? That's too far fetched.* He'd never do that. He did get off scot-free. It's not something that I ever bring up, I don't deserve to bring it up. He did tell me to do it, but I still chose to do it. He didn't force anything..... He pushed for it, especially the first time, but at the end of the day it was my choice to do that to him. He's said he didn't actually want me to do it.
> 
> He would absolutely not do marriage therapy of any sort. He doesn't believe in therapy. I would never be able to get him to go, together or on his own, nor would he support me deciding to go if I thought that was something I needed to do.
> 
> I'm not ready to walk away from my marriage. There has to be a way to fix it.


It's not far fetched at all. I read a book on this topic, wish I could recall the name of the book. It's something that some men do. They push their wife to have sex with other men and then use it as the excuse for their own cheating. If it takes 2 years, it takes 2 years. See, in his mind, now he can cheat all he wants for the rest of his life.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

I interpreted your husband encouraging you to get more experience under your belt as exclusive of marriage to him, not inclusive. In other words, he suggested you date more before settling with him and IF you didn't find better, he would be there. Your story indicates you were DATING when he told you this, not MARRIED. 

Is that what you meant? If so, that's, VASTLY different than him just suggesting an open marriage. That's him trying to stop you from making a common, starry-eyed mistake that might end up in you cheating down the line. And it's what happened down the line after you chose to not heed his advice. That is one reason why I think he may be distant. 

Please clarify before I speculate any further, thank you.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

A man who does what your husband has done isn't a moral man and has no integrity. I cant understand why you could want to be with a man who has treated you with such disrespect and in such an unloving way. 
You clearly don't think much of yourself if you can't see that. 
He pressures and manipulates you into cheating and them blames you for cheating. How can you not see that is wrong? Now he is using the same to justify his own adultery. 
You say he really didn't want you to cheat, then why did he pressure and manipulate you to do so? No decent man would do that. Its worrying that you can't see that. I think your family could see what you cant, that this man is not husband material.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

desperatejane said:


> He isn’t manipulative or a manipulative bastard…. I hate when people say that. He is being treated as the bad guy here when he’s not and he isn’t here to defend himself. He is my husband. I’m not saying that he’s perfect and can do no wrong, but I didn’t come here to attack him and ream him out. He does hold it over my head, that’s no secret. He doesn’t like to discuss his cheating because, what I did was worse. I did it twice, with two of his friends. He didn’t force me to have sex with anyone. I wasn’t raped by anyone. He pushed for it, and that was wrong but I should have said no regardless. He didn’t make me do anything..... he didn’t force my legs apart and shove another man inside. I did that all on my own. He’s not perfect, but he’s not manipulative. He’s hurt, I did that. I should have stuck to my boundaries, not remoulded myself to fit the boundaries he had at the time. He wants our marriage to be fixed too. He wants to get back what we had. If he had come and written here instead, he’d probably have been told to divorce me for cheating.
> 
> He doesn’t keep me isolated or abuse me in some other way. I don’t have much communication with my family, 1-2 short phone calls a year, but that is from my own choice. My family was very against my decisions and have never been supportive of anything, including before my husband. He agreed that separating myself from them was best and less stressful for me, but I made that choice not him. We see his friends and family all of the time. We go out together. He doesn’t isolate and manipulate me. I know that my parents would gladly help me out if I needed help, but I don’t. I need to save a marriage, not end one.


This is for both you and your husband, if he really wants to forgive, then BOTH of you need to follow the advice given here - 




As I said before, a faithful wife willing to engage in intimate acts with her HUSBAND is a treasure to be guarded and protected. Not shared around among "friends".

Whether it was once or multiple, your husband & you had sex with other people. At this point, keeping score doesn't matter. 

What matters is you want to work thru it and move forward in life. He wants to use as a way to manipulate you. If he sees someone he wants to have sex with, will he say "Hey honey, ya owe me one"?

Until BOTH of you can agree that BOTH of you screwed up, forgive each other and look forward.

Your stuck in a bad situation.


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

desperatejane said:


> He isn’t manipulative or a manipulative bastard…. I hate when people say that. He is being treated as the bad guy here when he’s not and he isn’t here to defend himself. He is my husband. I’m not saying that he’s perfect and can do no wrong, but I didn’t come here to attack him and ream him out. He does hold it over my head, that’s no secret. He doesn’t like to discuss his cheating because, what I did was worse. I did it twice, with two of his friends. He didn’t force me to have sex with anyone. I wasn’t raped by anyone. He pushed for it, and that was wrong but I should have said no regardless. He didn’t make me do anything..... he didn’t force my legs apart and shove another man inside. I did that all on my own. He’s not perfect, but he’s not manipulative. He’s hurt, I did that. I should have stuck to my boundaries, not remoulded myself to fit the boundaries he had at the time. He wants our marriage to be fixed too. He wants to get back what we had. If he had come and written here instead, he’d probably have been told to divorce me for cheating.
> 
> He doesn’t keep me isolated or abuse me in some other way. I don’t have much communication with my family, 1-2 short phone calls a year, but that is from my own choice. My family was very against my decisions and have never been supportive of anything, including before my husband. He agreed that separating myself from them was best and less stressful for me, but I made that choice not him. We see his friends and family all of the time. We go out together. He doesn’t isolate and manipulate me. I know that my parents would gladly help me out if I needed help, but I don’t. I need to save a marriage, not end one.


Hello Jane
Sorry you're here with that situation. I hope you know that by being here, is like throwing yourself to the piranhas tank. A lot of people will take a chunk of meat from your situation.
Reading your case I'm amazed how similar is with what I'm going through.
I wish I could private message you but I don't know how to use it to give you a few details from my own experience and a few insights from me as husband. 
We've been married for 17 yrs and in many fights my wife and I had in the past, I also told her to go and find someone else since we were very unhappy. And whatever we did to make it better, ended up turning upside-down but we keep trying and trying.
I cheated on my wife 15 yrs ago and She also had two affairs like you but we love each other and we still working together in our marriage.
You seems not to want to give up because you love him, well that good enough to save your marriage, that means you guys have a good chance to fix it passing all the cheating.
Wish you the best and fight for your marriage it's going to be hard, that's why you have to be harder.

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## Edmund (Apr 1, 2017)

Desperatejane. I am sorry but your interpretation of what has happened, is happening to you, is wrong. It is based on your desire to absolve your husband of any responsibility for events that are mostly his fault.

Your husband has a so-called “hotwife” fetish. This “lifestyle” is becoming more common now apparently because of pornography that focuses on it. In my opinion, hotwifing is a male psychological disorder (a mental sickness). It culminates in the situation that the husband can get sexual satisfaction only by imagining or witnessing his wife having sex with other men. I know this sounds crazy to you right now. I am sorry that you are where you are, because it most often ends in divorce. The hotwife fetish is like a drug where the husband has to have more and more to get to the same “high”.

I don’t know how you can save your marriage at this point, but I think allowing your husband to have an open relationship because of your guilt is a very bad idea. Note that hotwife husbands usually do not want sex with other women, and eventually stop having sex with their wives. Many eventually become feminine in nature.

If you want further information, PM me and I will send you the link to a website where you can find a lot of information on this.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, I am not personally involved with any of these alternative lifestyles. I am married, 40 years this year. I have read a lot of stuff on the web trying to understand certain other peoples problems. Much of it is shocking.

By the way, what you did is not cheating because your husband knew in advance and approved. Cheating is only when the spouse does not know, or when the spouse did know in advance and objected to the liaison. Your husband is trying to control you by feeding your guilt. (Not saying what you did was right, just saying husband is more guilty than you because he suggested it).


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

My dear, you have bought into his narrative, when you should be sending one to him. In short, someone said he was in a gas filled room playing with matches. I disagree, he put you into a gas filled room with a remote controlled lighter. When it all exploded, he held you at fault. At the very least, he pushed you, at most, it is 50/50. That is where your discussions should center. If he is unwilling to cop to his responsibility in this, then my conclusion is that you are married to an abuser. Sorry, but he put you in a horrible situation. One where there was literally a no win scenario. If you cannot have a substantive discussion then it is apparent that he used you in order to justify his cheating. I then would propose a separation leading to eventual divorce. It is painfully apparent that he manipulated you.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

@Uptown

I think we need the personality disorder lecture.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> A man who does what your husband has done isn't a moral man and has no integrity. I cant understand why you could want to be with a man who has treated you with such disrespect and in such an unloving way.


I can. Mental health can be hell sometimes. Sometimes a person needs to proceed with baby steps. Start off by building a support network and then, if you must separate, do so to the degree that she can handle it emotionally. Separation and divorce can lead some people to attempted suicide in some cases even when it's the person doing the divorcing. If she must separate from him, sometimes baby steps are a good idea there too, starting off with sexual separation and then moving on to legal for example, step by step as she adjusts mentally and emotionally to the situation.

We don't know her past history.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

@desperatejane , in concrete terms, what exactly does your husband want out of your relationship at this point?

How old are the two of you?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

desperatejane we are not beating up on you or your husband. We are giving you our collective objective views of your situation. None of us here have a horse in your race. 

Your husband has got a fetish... which is to have his wife screw other men. His problem is he won't admit to himself that he has this kink, and so he has set a conflict up inside himself where his perv side gets off on you banging other dudes. His lucid, logical side is playing him mind-movies and telling him that you betrayed him, and at the same time his moral compass is broken and is causing him shame for setting you up the way you did. There are three conflicting forces at work on him all at once, and instead of working through, it he is now trapped in a limbo hell of his own making. His only outlet is spewing out anger and blame in your direction. 

Okay, so he's not an evil, bad man. But he is a deeply troubled man, with extremely distorted and skewed views on what constitutes healthy, loving sex. You are not helping him by standing by and doing nothing or by allowing him to abusively blame you for his shortcomings. You slept with his good friend yes...that was a bad decision on your part and you need to own it. But I doubt it would have happened at all if your husband had not created the unhealthy environment for all of this to take place. 

I think you need to start making some hard decisions. This whole debacle has affected you deeply. You acknowledge that you and your husband are in an unhealthy relationship, and you also acknowledge that he is unwilling to go to any kind of counseling or therapy to help the two of you recover from this. So he has, in a sense, entrapped you into the limbo hell with him. 

You can't stay where you are at. Your soul will die and you will end up bitter and permanently scarred if you do not end this.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

Of course I feel guilty about what I did. I'm always going to. I had sex with two other men while married. It is going to haunt me forever. Sex use to be special to me. It was something that I shared with only my husband. He didn't feel the same, he didn't get it. Now I feel like there are two other men walking around with a piece of me I'll never get back. One who used and defiled it, another who was a lot more sincere but now I have feelings for him that 3 years later I still can’t shake. I love my husband, I only want to be with my husband. Plenty of people have meaningless sex and walk away like it’s nothing, I don’t know how they do it. Every time I see that man I either get upset with what I did, or uncomfortable with how I'm feeling. My husband has gone back and forth on how much contact he wants/allows, it’s easier for me to have none but he isn’t always ok with that. I don’t think our marriage would have reached this point if I hadn’t slept with the second man. The situation was too different and too much for my husband. I never wanted to have a lot of sexual partners, I was raised not to. I was a complete virgin when I met my husband, granted I was young. I didn't plan on necessarily waiting until marriage, and we didn’t, but I didn't want to give it away to just anyone and sure as hell not while married. 

I try to bite my tongue when he says or does something that upsets me because I always overreact and take things the wrong way, he hates it. I seem to always take things the wrong way and it causes a lot of fights. 98% of fights are probably my fault. 

He didn’t manipulate me… He suggested it, and pushed for it a bit but he was pushing for other things as well. He didn’t force it or give an ultimatum. He wanted to do anything he could to fix the struggles we had. He didn't want me to have regrets later in life about not experiencing others. After a year of him suggesting it I trusted that he knew what he was talking about. He has only cheated on me once. If he had conspired the situation like being said here then he would have cheated a lot more. He's attractive, he's slept with a lot of women, most of his friends are still single and go out and drink a lot. If he wanted to be having sex with someone else, he could be. Our sex life is good, he has no need to cheat. It’s been 4 years, he cheated once and it was 4 weeks after I did for the second time. Me having sex with another man was an interest to him, it’s not now. It’s not a need that he has or something he needs to think about. He doesn't have any desire to have sex with another woman. 

He made a bad judgement call, we both did. If that makes him a horrible, terrible, bad husband material man, then it makes me the same. Probably makes me even worse because he only suggested it, I went through with it. He has no desire to ever do it again, nor do I. Our marriage was very good before this, that’s what I want back and what I want to fight for. People give up on marriage too easily. I want him to work with me and help fix our marriage. He tries, but we’re not getting anywhere. I wish he would go to a marriage therapist with me, but that’s not his cup of tea. I’m doing everything I can, I wish he’d do the same. What brought me here was not knowing what to do for our marriage, my husband and what to do so he’d try more.

We both want to stay married. We want to be as happy as we use to be. We want to start a family. He really wants to be a dad, wants that with me and doesn’t want to wait too long. I’ve had two miscarriages recently and very supportive and upset about it. He still loves me even if it doesn’t show like it use to, he doesn’t want to be with anyone else. We both want to get our marriage back to a healthy point before we bring a baby into it. I'm use to having people against my marriage and unsupportive of it, but I'd really like someone to understand that I love him, want to be married to him and want to fix our marriage.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> Of course I feel guilty about what I did. I'm always going to. I had sex with two other men while married. It is going to haunt me forever. Sex use to be special to me. It was something that I shared with only my husband. He didn't feel the same, he didn't get it. Now I feel like there are two other men walking around with a piece of me I'll never get back. One who used and defiled it, another who was a lot more sincere but now I have feelings for him that 3 years later I still can’t shake. I love my husband, I only want to be with my husband. Plenty of people have meaningless sex and walk away like it’s nothing, I don’t know how they do it. Every time I see that man I either get upset with what I did, or uncomfortable with how I'm feeling. My husband has gone back and forth on how much contact he wants/allows, it’s easier for me to have none but he isn’t always ok with that. I don’t think our marriage would have reached this point if I hadn’t slept with the second man. The situation was too different and too much for my husband. I never wanted to have a lot of sexual partners, I was raised not to. I was a complete virgin when I met my husband, granted I was young. I didn't plan on necessarily waiting until marriage, and we didn’t, but I didn't want to give it away to just anyone and sure as hell not while married.


I know this will be painful, but you must learn to forgive yourself. I don't profess the Christian Faith myself; but since statistically there is a high chance you do, consider:

'Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.' Don't forget to forgive yourself.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> I try to bite my tongue when he says or does something that upsets me because I always overreact and take things the wrong way, he hates it. I seem to always take things the wrong way and it causes a lot of fights. 98% of fights are probably my fault.


In my marriage, if I have any doubt about my wife's intention, I will always give her the benefit of the doubt and ask her to clarify to avoid misunderstanding.

My wife suffers trauma of her own and sometimes (though rarely and much less than before) snaps at me. I ignore the tone and kindly respond to what she said in a rational manner. She quickly calms down and apologizes and we move on. She's learnt coping skills of her own too. She's told me sometimes when she feels like snapping, she'll just walk away for a minute and come back. Another thing that helped was that she straightforwardly told me of this problem before we married so that I could expect it, anticipate it, and understand that it's nothing personal.

When she's asleep, she sometimes kicks me. Again, very rarely and even less now than before, but it happens. I just move my legs when she does that.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

It's very difficult for me to be able to forgive myself when my husband hasn't forgiven me. I desperately want to hear him say that he forgives me. What I did changed his view of me, just like it changed my view of myself. If he feels the same way about me as I do, I don't know why he stays with me. It's not what he agreed to marry and I'm lucky he's stayed with me and still wants me. I should count my blessings not complain about him on the internet.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> It's very difficult for me to be able to forgive myself when my husband hasn't forgiven me. I desperately want to hear him say that he forgives me. What I did changed his view of me, just like it changed my view of myself. If he feels the same way about me as I do, I don't know why he stays with me. It's not what he agreed to marry and I'm lucky he's stayed with me and still wants me. I should count my blessings not complain about him on the internet.


You forgiving yourself has nothing to do with your husband forgiving you. If you can't forgive yourself for your own sake, then forgive yourself for your husband's sake. It'll be a long process, but work at it over time.

As for your husband, can you tell him that you want to hear him say he forgives you? If you can't bring up the courage to tell him face to face, could you try by text message or email?


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

From my experience and observation, I have a feeling that spouses in general are much more forgiving, accepting, and stronger than we may realize.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

What can I do to help him forgive me? He hasn’t, that much is obvious. He still holds it against me. Him cheating on me is one of the worst pains I’ve felt, but I let it go. It still hurts when I think about it, but I try not to let myself go there. He dismisses my feelings quite often, but doesn’t realize it. Sometimes I just want to be able to talk to him about it, but I can't. The conversation always goes sour. Which I should expect...


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

DJ,

Perhaps you can offer to take a polygraph, did you give your H full details without lying by omission or minimization. Does he know about who the other people are where they live etc?

Were the affairs revealed to the spouses or SOs of the OM?

Tamat


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

desperatejane said:


> It's very difficult for me to be able to forgive myself when my husband hasn't forgiven me. I desperately want to hear him say that he forgives me. What I did changed his view of me, just like it changed my view of myself. If he feels the same way about me as I do, I don't know why he stays with me. It's not what he agreed to marry and I'm lucky he's stayed with me and still wants me. I should count my blessings not complain about him on the internet.


He is the one who should be asking for forgiveness for pressuring you to go outside the marriage in the first place and then he has the cheek to be angry about it and cheat himself? 

This make me so sad because you are completely ignoring your husbands sins and blaming yourself for it all. A good caring husband does NOT suggest to his wife that she has sex with other men and does NOT pressure her to do it and does NOT then blame her for what HE wanted her to do. How skewed is that? For what ever reason you are not allowing yourself to acknowledge the seriousness of what he did, it was appalling and manipulative.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I hope you realise that there is something wrong with your husband. He has a kink or fetish if you like. He gets off on being a cuckold and then regrets it. He is actually angry with himself but cannot admit it so he takes it out on you. I agree with those that say you should have left him the minute he suggested it - it shows a gross lack of respect for you.

He needs to get himself "fixed" through therapy or whatever and you need to get the hell out of this marriage. You will eventually realise that you have lost respect for him and he will turn you into something that you are not and don't want to be.

So get out while you can and stay healthy.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

TAMAT said:


> DJ,
> 
> Perhaps you can offer to take a polygraph, did you give your H full details without lying by omission or minimization. Does he know about who the other people are where they live etc?
> 
> ...


I think we have to be very careful with polygraphs. They can provide false positives and false negatives. If I ever believed my wife was lying to me, I'd never ask her to take a polygraph test. What if she tells the truth but the test shows a false negative? Do I believe her or the test?


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> What can I do to help him forgive me? He hasn’t, that much is obvious. He still holds it against me. Him cheating on me is one of the worst pains I’ve felt, but I let it go. It still hurts when I think about it, but I try not to let myself go there. He dismisses my feelings quite often, but doesn’t realize it. Sometimes I just want to be able to talk to him about it, but I can't. The conversation always goes sour. Which I should expect...


I know you don't want to read this, but you can fix only yourself. You can forgive him, you can forgive yourself; but if he is not willing to admit to his own mistakes, there is nothing you can do to fix that. He has to want to change. He has to want to accept help. Until that happens, you need to focus on yourself for now.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

Is a polygraph a serious suggestion? How does that work? People do that, not just on TV? 

My husband knows both men. I know it makes it worse. The first man is a friend of a friend, they’ve known each other for around 18 years. They were not extremely close but at that point saw each other a few times a year. The second man is a close friend of my husband. They’ve been close for 25 years or so and are still friends. He still comes over sometimes and spends the night, they go out together alone and with other friends, talk almost daily. 

What is SOs and OM? My husband knew about it before it happened, neither of them were married or in relationships. My husband knew every thing about the first time. He knows a lot about the second time. He stopped wanting to know and that one was/is harder for me to talk about.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> Is a polygraph a serious suggestion? How does that work? People do that, not just on TV?


I'd stay clear of any polygraph test simply because the polygraph is not reliable. There is a reason some jurisdictions do not allow polygraph tests as evidence at criminal trials. What you see on reality TV is for entertainment and that's it. What happens if you take a polygraph test, you tell the truth, and the polygraph test incorrectly shows that you are lying? A poligraph simply measures certain physiological responses, but the link between those responses and lying is not very reliable.



desperatejane said:


> What is SOs and OM? My husband knew about it before it happened, neither of them were married or in relationships. My husband knew every thing about the first time. He knows a lot about the second time. He stopped wanting to know and that one was/is harder for me to talk about.


I think SO means significant other and OM means other man.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

I'll be clear on this. I would never rely on a polygraph test to show whether someone was telling the truth. I'd turn to more reliable clues such as analyzing the person's words. When a person tells the truth, even when telling an outlandish story, his story will tend to be quite consistent and any inconsistency will mostly be limited to minor insignificant details for the most part due to poor memory. I'd never rely on a polygraph test since it could cause more harm than good if it gives a false conclusion.


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## desperatejane (Feb 4, 2018)

I have never heard of people doing polygraphs in real life. It’s not something that my husband has ever mentioned. I think I know what he’d want to know, I know what he struggles with the most. He doesn’t believe in therapists, so I kind of doubt he’d agree to a polygraph(er). I don’t even know where one finds someone who does that. If they aren’t reliable then I wouldn’t want to do that and make things worse for us. Though at this point I'd consider anything. 

He has apologized for suggesting it, at times when I was upset after I did it. I know that my husband has made mistakes. If he could go back in time and change it I’m sure he would. He doesn’t want to do it again. He doesn’t need it. There isn’t anything wrong with him. He doesn’t want to watch me with other men, he doesn’t think about it. It hasn’t been suggested since 2014. He doesn’t need to be fixed. I made more mistakes than he did, if I’m not suppose to forgive and let go of his, how is he suppose to do the same for mine? He does want our marriage to change and be better. He wants to be as happy as we use to be. He wants to start our family, and wants to be in a good place when we do. The idea of kids seems to motivate him more than my own desire for him to help us.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

desperatejane said:


> I have never heard of people doing polygraphs in real life. It’s not something that my husband has ever mentioned. I think I know what he’d want to know, I know what he struggles with the most. He doesn’t believe in therapists, so I kind of doubt he’d agree to a polygraph(er). I don’t even know where one finds someone who does that. If they aren’t reliable then I wouldn’t want to do that and make things worse for us. Though at this point I'd consider anything.
> 
> He has apologized for suggesting it, at times when I was upset after I did it. I know that my husband has made mistakes. If he could go back in time and change it I’m sure he would. He doesn’t want to do it again. He doesn’t need it. There isn’t anything wrong with him. He doesn’t want to watch me with other men, he doesn’t think about it. It hasn’t been suggested since 2014. He doesn’t need to be fixed. I made more mistakes than he did, if I’m not suppose to forgive and let go of his, how is he suppose to do the same for mine? He does want our marriage to change and be better. He wants to be as happy as we use to be. He wants to start our family, and wants to be in a good place when we do. The idea of kids seems to motivate him more than my own desire for him to help us.


Some people do polygraph tests just as some people visit psychics or buy lottery tickets.

How much have you discussed your feelings with him? If he knows your pain in detail, could that help?


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