# I called her a b***



## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

As some of you will know from my previous posts things are not so healthy in my relationship. For those who don't know: We've been together around 6 years, are both in our 30s, she has a child (14) from a previous relationship, and we have lived together for about 4 years. Yes, we have problems (she's jealous and controlling; I'm dependent, a door mat, and an approval seeker).

It was her sons birthday this week. We both got up early to make a breakfast before I went to work that would include her parents, sister and of course the star guest, the birthday boy: her son. Note: My parents live in another country and so wouldn't be there.

Her son was still asleep while we laid out the table. From the moment the alarm had gone off I could tell she was stressed. She always gets stressed at these kind of events, especially when her parents come over.

I can't remember the exact things she said but from the start everything I did or asked was met with some kind of acidic/icy/sarcastic/cold response. I resisted the urge to respond in kind and got on with helping.

Unfortunately, she snapped (because I asked her which plate she would like me to put some sliced tomato on!), and told me to go back to bed because I have a problem helping her. What!? I was fine helping her! I then asked if I should collect some bread from our local bakery only to be told that she would go and didn't need my help. So... I asked again, was met with more negativity and decided to go and lie on the bed. She then told me to go f*** myself or something and proceeded to insult me by "using my parents against me again" (often done), to insult me. Something about how my dad behaves. She knows these kind of insults get under my skin. At this point, I was so wound up, I lost it. I regret it, I should have stayed calm, walked away, but I told her to f*** off and stop being nasty. She then said something else that was nasty and I dropped the b**** word saying something like "you b****".

Of course that was it. I was told to go to work and not stay for the breakfast. I regained my calm. apologised, said that I would love to stay for the breakfast for her son, but was told many times to go. So I went. 

Now it's the next day. Last night, she was obviously (and understandably) angry with me and insisted I sleep on the couch. No one has ever called her "a b***" before and for her this is an extremely serious disturbing thing to insult a woman with. During the night (around 0100-0200) she insisted the light stay on and she listened to music on her laptop (the same song for 4 times) making it next to impossible for me to sleep. And reminding me of forms of torture! At some point she went to bed, leaving the light on and me to get up and turn it off and finally get to sleep. on the couch.

The following morning (today), she was suddenly all sweet and gave me a cuddle and said she missed me last night when I went to work. But then... when I called her from work later, she was frosty, acidic, and though I tried to make conversation was only answered with "yes" and "no" and silence. I apologized (again). She said that my behavior is making her not care about me anymore and that I have a behavioral problem and anger problem.

I know that calling someone a b**** is terrible. I regret calling her that. But to be honest, I think she is behaving like a b****. What do you think?


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

Wow. Your wife sounds like a bully. There's absolutely no way my husband would put up with me treating him that way at all, especially if he was trying to help me. If I told him to go F himself, he'd have agreed it was a good idea and put me out on my ass.

Stress is not an excuse to verbally abuse someone.

IMO, she needs anger management ASAP.

I agree you shouldn't have called her a B----, but a person can only take so much before they verbally fire back.

You were both wrong, but she sounds way, way over the top.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Quit seeking her approval and she may start to treat you with some shred of respect.

No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover

Married Mans Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay

Get them and read them. If you have them, read them again.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

You lost your composure and resorted to her level of arguing. She was looking for a whipping boy and a fight, and you gave her both. Not saying that it wasn't 100% deserved, but calling her a b1tch reinforced your doormat status in her eyes. I think NMMNG crowd calls it "losing frame". I think the entire event would have played out differently if you had stood your ground from the very start and kept your composure. 

You mention being "dependent, a door mat, and an approval seeker". What have you done or are currently doing to change this?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

modernknight said:


> No one has ever called her "a b***" before...


LOL. I somehow doubt that.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

After she apologizes for telling you to go F yourself, tell her you're sorry for calling her a B. Then you both should try hard to make it up to each other by saying NICE things to each other. What do they say...it takes 7 affirmations to make up for 1 insult/degrading comment? You both should do that. You're not the only one wrong here.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

You said that? - Yeah, I said, "B****" You know, I laid it out.
You said "B****" though.
- Huh? - You said "B****".

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LGEiIL1__s


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

ReidWright said:


> You said that? - Yeah, I said, "B****" You know, I laid it out.
> You said "B****" though.
> - Huh? - You said "B****".
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LGEiIL1__s


lol. Thank you for bringing some much needed comic relief!


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## DayOne (Sep 19, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> You said that? - Yeah, I said, "B****" You know, I laid it out.
> You said "B****" though.
> - Huh? - You said "B****".
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LGEiIL1__s


All the win!


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> After she apologizes for telling you to go F yourself, tell her you're sorry for calling her a B. Then you both should try hard to make it up to each other by saying NICE things to each other. What do they say...it takes 7 affirmations to make up for 1 insult/degrading comment? You both should do that. You're not the only one wrong here.


I completely agree. Sadly... the chances of her saying sorry or taking any responsibility for her part are zero. It's just not going to happen. Have you ever read this page: High-Conflict Phases of Abuse, Blame Shifting, Distortion, Rage and Manipulation Diagram ?

I've basically given her the "nugget" and been read my Miranda rights. She is now the victim and I am the abuser and her original insults are off-topic and never allowed to be discussed. My abusive words will now be there for the rest of eternity for her to remind me of what an abuser I am and also to distract attention away from her future insults.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

modernknight said:


> I completely agree. Sadly... the chances of her saying sorry or taking any responsibility for her part are zero. It's just not going to happen. Have you ever read this page: High-Conflict Phases of Abuse, Blame Shifting, Distortion, Rage and Manipulation Diagram ?
> 
> I've basically given her the "nugget" and been read my Miranda rights. She is now the victim and I am the abuser and her original insults are off-topic and never allowed to be discussed. My abusive words will now be there for the rest of eternity for her to remind me of what an abuser I am and also to distract attention away from her future insults.


This will be true as long as you allow it to be true.
That's up to you.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

modernknight said:


> I completely agree. Sadly... the chances of her saying sorry or taking any responsibility for her part are zero. It's just not going to happen. Have you ever read this page: High-Conflict Phases of Abuse, Blame Shifting, Distortion, Rage and Manipulation Diagram ?
> 
> I've basically given her the "nugget" and been read my Miranda rights. She is now the victim and I am the abuser and her original insults are off-topic and never allowed to be discussed. My abusive words will now be there for the rest of eternity for her to remind me of what an abuser I am and also to distract attention away from her future insults.


Yep, I know the type. Was married to it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

modernknight said:


> I've basically given her the "nugget" and been read my Miranda rights. She is now the victim and I am the abuser and her original insults are off-topic and never allowed to be discussed. My abusive words will now be there for the rest of eternity for her to remind me of what an abuser I am and also to distract attention away from her future insults.




I think you could turn this around with some empathy and humor, mk. Mostly I think you just need more confidence in yourself. 

But it can be hard for sensitive people to get there. We are too busy taking other people's emotions personally, giving them power they don't need to have.

Could you try looking past her emotions, to how to address her underlying stresses?


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> I think you could turn this around with some empathy and humor, mk. Mostly I think you just need more confidence in yourself.
> 
> But it can be hard for sensitive people to get there. We are too busy taking other people's emotions personally, giving them power they don't need to have.
> 
> *Could you try looking past her emotions, to how to address her underlying stresses?*


Or she could try not verbally abusing her husband and get some help.

And, IMO, her emotions aren't the issue. It's her expressing them with all of the self control of a toddler.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Frankly I'm not sure what the difference is telling someone "F you" or calling them a b***ch, both comments are incredibly insulting and things you should never direct toward your spouse.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> Or she could try not verbally abusing her husband and get some help.
> 
> And, IMO, her emotions aren't the issue. It's her expressing them with all of the self control of a toddler.


She could. She might get there.

But we have him here right now.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

Cooper said:


> Frankly I'm not sure what the difference is telling someone "F you" or calling them a b***ch, both comments are incredibly insulting and things you should never direct toward your spouse.


I agree they are both insulting to say, but taking the situation as a whole, I can empathise with the reason the OP called his wife a b----. Verbal abuse can really wear a person down, and it seems this isn't an unusual scenario in their home.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> She could. She might get there.
> 
> *But we have him here right now.*


He needs to get her into anger management. At this point, he might need it too.


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Luxey said:


> He needs to get her into anger management. At this point, he might need it too.


Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, whatever the reason/cause/input, I should not behave as I do. I need to find a way not to respond in the way that I have. It makes things worse not better.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

modernknight said:


> Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, whatever the reason/cause/input, I should not behave as I do. I need to find a way not to respond in the way that I have. It makes things worse not better.


I like how you are taking responsibility for yourself, mk. That is a good example for your gf.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> He needs to get her into anger management.


Telling your partner she is the problem and needs to change is not always a winning strategy.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> Telling your partner she is the problem and needs to change is not always a winning strategy.


As I said, they both probably need it. The OP agrees.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Telling your partner she is the problem and needs to change is not always a winning strategy.


Neither is absorbing all of the insults and rage to blow up and remain codependent. Over a plate and some tomatoes. Then be told to go back to sleep.

Yes, at some point you need to tell your partner how you feel and needing to change is an important aspect. Communication is always a winning strategy, it just may not have the outcome you expect.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> As I said, they both probably need it. The OP agrees.


I think getting other people to do what we think would help them can be tricky. His setting an example would indeed be powerful. 

I also think there are ways of helping her, and therefore them, that do not necessarily involve blaming and confronting her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Neither is absorbing all the insults to blow up and remain codependent.


They could just roll off his back, while he seeks to help her with what is really going on underneath.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

From your previous posts, she is not your wife but a live-in girlfriend with a 14 year old son. The scenario you presented does give her the title of "b..."; the shoe fits. Why are you still in this relationship when she does not respect you and brings out the worst in you? Surely, you can find a better girlfriend without the baggage. Seek a healthy relationship in your life.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> They could just roll off his back, while he seeks to help her with what is really going on underneath.


No one should allow abuse to just "roll off their back" man or woman.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> They could just roll off his back, while he seeks to help her with what is really going on underneath.


They could just not roll off her tongue and he could find a woman who appreciates his help.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> No one should allow abuse to just "roll off their back" man or woman.


Well, good luck fighting every definition of abuse at every turn.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> They could just not roll off her tongue and he could find a woman who appreciates his help.


He is certainly welcome to change girlfriends. I don't think he wants to. Otherwise he would do it.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> Well, good luck fighting every definition of abuse at every turn.


I have no idea what you mean by this.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> They could just not roll off her tongue and he could find a woman who appreciates his help.


Aaaaaaand, we have a winner.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> I have no idea what you mean by this.


Have you ever seen lists of abusive acts? Almost anything qualifies.

Okay, let me give an example. On one list it said something like, "Your partner tells you how you could have done something better." Does that sound abusive to you?

We can't control other people. But if our own actions can cut through their emotions and help them solve underlying issues that motivate their behavior, why would we not want to do that?


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> Have you ever seen lists of abusive acts? Almost anything qualifies.
> 
> Okay, let me give an example. On one list it said something like, "Your partner tells you how you could have done something better." Does that sound abusive to you?
> 
> We can't control other people. But if our own actions can cut through their emotions and help them solve underlying issues that motivate their behavior, *why would we not want to do that?*


I get what you're saying, but I'm sorry, I'm not going to stand there while someone verbally rails on me and just take it because, hey, they have underlying issues. I'm a person who won't tolerate it. At all.

Get help or GTFO.

Underlying issues doesn't give _anyone_ a free pass to treat their spouse like sh-t.

Like I said, they both need anger management at this point.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> I get what you're saying, but I'm sorry, I'm not going to stand there while someone verbally rails on me and just take it because, hey, they have underlying issues. I'm a person who son't tolerate it. At all.
> 
> Get help or GTFO.
> 
> ...


I would not stay, either. But he seems to want to. And so I am trying to focus on ways he can make things better all on his own, since he cannot count on her helping.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> I would not stay, either. But he seems to want to. And so I am trying to focus on ways he can make things better all on his own, since he cannot count on her helping.


If she refuses to treat him with respect and communicate like like an adult, then he can make things better all on his own by leaving.


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## Sure that could work (Jun 9, 2015)

Well her behavior kind of fit the behavior of a b*tch. The thing is to figure out what causes her to stress out so badly and take it out on you. I would assume this is long term behavior....you taking the bad side of the stress? It sounds like she was looking for a fight to take the stress of a birthday breakfast and found a reliable source to take that stress in you. Why does she get so stressed making breakfast for a birthday? Is it just the extra work, is it her family is going to be there, or is it a combination? I would also assume she invited these people, you didn't, right? 

Do the two of you communicate at all? Can you have a conversation about this fight in normal conversation tone? I wouldn't back down from the b*tch comment at all. You know, if the shoe fits she should wear it. I would explain that I am not anyone's stress reliever, at least not in this type of way. It's too bad that you missed the birthday boy's breakfast, are you close to this child? Is that where the nasty comes in? Is she jealous of the relationship you have with her son or her family? 

I would need to fight back and turn it around on her, you get to be upset about this too. This isn't just an assault on her, she also went after you. Let her sleep on the couch. Is she controlling? Was the idea of you helping taking the control away from her and making her feel insecure? This is not an excuse for bad behavior in any case but it might behoove you to figure this out so it doesn't keep on happening.

Figure out what specifically bothered you about the entire give and take, make a plan on how to avoid it in the future, and then have a conversation about these things. You get to have a say about how you are treated in your home too.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I don't think he needs anger management, he needs counseling for a myriad of other issues. 

Holy crap dude, you have swallowed quite a few sh!$ sandwiches.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> If she refuses to treat him with respect and communicate like like an adult, then he can make things better all on his own by leaving.


But he does not want to, or he would be doing that.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

jld said:


> But he does not want to, or he would be doing that.


Could be true. He will or won't, but this relationship is doomed if it stays as is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Luxey said:


> Could be true. He will or won't, but this relationship is doomed if it stays as is.


I don't think it will stay that way. I think he is here searching for answers, and those answers will help him.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

My suggestion to you is rather than ask what plate to put something on, you decide and not ask. She might be seeing that you cannot make your own choices, or decisions, and that might bother her. Actually I do not understand why you cannot decide on your own what plate to use either.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Perhaps because he knows that whatever plate he chooses will instantly be the wrong one? She was spoiling for a fight.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Also, OP--don't ever let her kick you out of your own bed. If she has the problem, she can go sleep on the couch.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Also, OP--don't ever let her kick you out of your own bed. If she has the problem, she can go sleep on the couch.


Not very gentlemanly, Fozzy . . .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Not very gentlemanly, Fozzy . . .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who cares?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> Who cares?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Voluntarily leaving the bed so as to make your sick or injured wife more comfortable is gentlemanly. Being sent scurrying for the couch like a scolded child is not.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Voluntarily leaving the bed so as to make your sick or injured wife more comfortable is gentlemanly. Being sent scurrying for the couch like a scolded child is not.


I endorse this message
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

We have a simple rule - the person who wants space - sleeps elsewhere. 

There's nothing remotely ok about either person implicitly claiming ownership of the bedroom by asking the other to leave. 

Same goes for the house, if you get to that point. Obviously all of this is contingent on the absence of threatening behavior. 







Fozzy said:


> Voluntarily leaving the bed so as to make your sick or injured wife more comfortable is gentlemanly. Being sent scurrying for the couch like a scolded child is not.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Yep, you made a big boo boo with that one. Would've been way better to just leave her to do it on her own. That said, you apologised nearly immediately afterwards, so stop apologising. Don't ever apologise for it again. Put it behind you. If she comes back to it time and again in the future, I would just say you apologised at the time, and it was solely to do your reaction to how you were being treated that morning, nothing more, nothing less.

As for the icy stuff, you can't fight icy with warmth and meekness, trust me. My default state for dealing with icy is icy. If a person doesn't get that stuff right back in their teeth, they have no incentive to cut that sh*t out. This happened to me recently. I was nice and gave fair warning, you keep treating me like that and I won't be able to help it, I will withdraw from you, and I did. If I hadn't, I think it would've gone on indefinitely and done a lot more damage before we sorted it out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OK guys, what is the underlying concern here? You are afraid you will look weak to your wife if you go and sleep on the couch if she asks? You feel like it's giving her power over you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

It sounds to me like she already doesn't respect him. I don't see how letting her shrew him out of his bed will improve that. Basically, yes. I do think he would look weak to his wife.

More importantly, his own self respect will take a hit.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> OK guys, what is the underlying concern here? You are afraid you will look weak to your wife if you go and sleep on the couch if she asks? You feel like it's giving her power over you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


underlying concern?

i respect myself too much to be kicked out of my own bed because my wife isnt happy with me. 

should i kick her out of bed the next time she does something i dont like?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have you ever asked her? 

Has any man here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

I'm confused. One of your primary themes on TAM is that as adults we don't get to 'control' each other. I agree with that. And am applying it here. 

If I want space from M2 because I don't like her behavior, I sleep upstairs. If she wants space from me, she sleeps upstairs. 

The person who wants space, is responsible for going where they have it. 

Imagine we are both sitting in the living room and M2 decides she wants to be alone, looks up from her book and says to me: can you leave the room please, I want to be alone. That is aggressive. 

On the other hand M2 sometimes says: Do you mind if I have some quiet time - and goes into another room. 

When that happens I always smile and say - sure. And I would not push myself into a space where she has gone because she wants be alone. Because that would be aggressive. 

As far as how things 'look'. Asking someone to leave a space implies that you believe you OWN that space, as opposed to it being a shared space. IMO that requires a large sense of entitlement. 



jld said:


> OK guys, what is the underlying concern here? You are afraid you will look weak to your wife if you go and sleep on the couch if she asks? You feel like it's giving her power over you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Tell her to go kick rocks.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Asking someone to leave a space implies that you believe you OWN that space. As opposed to believing it is 'shared' space. 

Letting someone kick you out of a space implies you agree that they OWN that space. 



As'laDain said:


> underlying concern?
> 
> i respect myself too much to be kicked out of my own bed because my wife isnt happy with me.
> 
> should i kick her out of bed the next time she does something i dont like?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, I think there's a difference between a woman asking a man to sleep on the couch and a man asking a woman to sleep on the couch. Personally, I have not heard of a man asking a woman to sleep on the couch. Maybe in CWI, though . . .

I would feel funny routinely opening a door for my husband, or taking his arm so he doesn't slip on the ice, or holding an umbrella over him so he wouldn't get wet in the rain. But maybe that's just me.

I'm not familiar with many cases of women controlling men where that control could not be fairly easily overturned, probably with a little self-confidence on the part of the man. I don't think the opposite is true. Again, maybe that's just me.

I guess, to sum up my feelings on the subject, I think there are men, and then there are gentlemen. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

Why are you not responding to what I wrote? This isn't about doors, or ice or umbrellas - glad to address that separately. 

This is about demanding someone leave a shared space. 




jld said:


> MEM, I think there's a difference between a woman asking a man to sleep on the couch and a man asking a woman to sleep on the couch. Personally, I have not heard of a man asking a woman to sleep on the couch. Maybe in CWI, though . . .
> 
> I would feel funny routinely opening a door for my husband, or taking his arm so he doesn't slip on the ice, or holding an umbrella over him so he wouldn't get wet in the rain. But maybe that's just me.
> 
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Have you ever asked her?
> 
> Has any man here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have, actually. Care to guess what her answer was?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> MEM, I think there's a difference between a woman asking a man to sleep on the couch and a man asking a woman to sleep on the couch. Personally, I have not heard of a man asking a woman to sleep on the couch. Maybe in CWI, though . . .
> 
> I would feel funny routinely opening a door for my husband, or taking his arm so he doesn't slip on the ice, or holding an umbrella over him so he wouldn't get wet in the rain. But maybe that's just me.
> 
> ...


No issues here. I am what I am. I'll leave it to others to come up with a label for what kind of man I am. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a frame of reference issue. 

The question isn't, what your response to said request says about you. 

The real question is instead: what does this request say about the person who is making it/issuing it as a demand? 

My belief is that - this is a gender neutral situation. It is aggressive and selfish of either person to make such a request / demand. 






As'laDain said:


> No issues here. I am what I am. I'll leave it to others to come up with a label for what kind of man I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Why are you not responding to what I wrote? This isn't about doors, or ice or umbrellas - glad to address that separately.
> 
> This is about demanding someone leave a shared space.


I thought I _was_ responding to it.

MEM, I think OP's gf felt threatened by OP. To some, that might sound ridiculous. But if she senses a power advantage to him, and I can certainly see one in terms of their finances, I can see how she tried to even the field by asking him to sleep on the couch. She was trying to psychologically protect herself by asserting that she had power, too. Does that make sense?

I think where you see shared space, someone on the underside of a power differential might see lent space. And feeling threatened, might try to grab for it, to reassure herself somehow.

I think, here on TAM, there are a lot of men who feel, or have felt, threatened by women. As a woman, I am always surprised by that thought. But it's there. 

If a man has ever felt threatened by a woman, I can see why he would balk at honoring her request, or even demand. But I think a secure man would look beyond her words to her heart, and seek why she would want to distance herself in the first place.

Please let me know if I have adequately addressed your post.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> I have, actually. Care to guess what her answer was?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Something aggressive?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is a frame of reference issue.
> 
> The question isn't, what your response to said request says about you.
> 
> ...


Again, never heard of a man making such a request/demand. Except for Asla, I guess. And maybe those guys in CWI.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

A secure man might also say

"You want space? Well, here is a blanket and a pillow. The couch is in the living room".

Or he might just say, "ok, I'll leave you alone tonight. I'll be right here in our bed if you decide to talk to me."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think it's safe to say we define "a secure man" differently, Asla.

Though your second example is kind of funny.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

intheory said:


> "Doors or Ice or Umbrellas", sounds like a great name for a music album.:grin2:


Lol, it does, doesn't it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

intheory said:


> "Doors or Ice or Umbrellas", sounds like a great name for a music album.:grin2:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Something aggressive?


As if kicking someone out of their bed isn't aggressive.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> As if kicking someone out of their bed isn't aggressive.


Kicking him out? Literally keeping out a man who has decided to stay in? 

How many women can really and truly accomplish that?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> I think it's safe to say we define "a secure man" differently, Asla.
> 
> Though your second example is kind of funny.


Believe it or not, the second option is my go to response. I cannot make decisions for her. At the same time, she cannot make decisions for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> Believe it or not, the second option is my go to response. I cannot make decisions for her. At the same time, she cannot make decisions for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like an equal relationship to me. 

Just giving you a hard time, Asla.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Kicking him out? Literally keeping out a man who has decided to stay in?
> 
> How many women can really and truly accomplish that?


Literally? LOL. Happens all of the time. I'll end the derail because you have gone back to your usual defense of word games and implied semantics.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Something aggressive?


No. She simply said that she would not like it if i told her she was not allowed to sleep in our bed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Again, never heard of a man making such a request/demand. Except for Asla, I guess. And maybe those guys in CWI.


Wait a second... when did I ask my wife to sleep on the couch?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> Wait a second... when did I ask my wife to sleep on the couch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Posts 54, 55, and 61?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Literally? LOL. Happens all of the time. I'll end the derail because you have gone back to your usual defense of word games and implied semantics.


Not sure a woman can keep a man out who has decided he is going to stay in. Not with the typical size difference between men and women, anyway.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Not sure a woman can keep a man out who has decided he is going to stay in. .


Happens all of the time.


Anyway, I read your other threads OP. I say you need counseling because, you haven't figured out why you accept this entitled little princess's actions. You need to understand why you wallow in this micromanaged angry misery.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Posts 54, 55, and 61?


How did you get that from me asking if I should kick my wife out of bed the next time I'm not happy with her? Does asking that question mean that I kicked her out of bed?

Or, asking her how she would feel if I told her she was not allowed to sleep in her bed. Does that mean that I kicked her out of bed?


I will not presume to be able to make her choices for her. Her decision to sleep in our bed or on the couch is her decision. The same goes for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Happens all of the time.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I read your other threads OP. I say you need counseling because, you haven't figured out why you accept this entitled little princess's actions. You need to understand why you wallow in this micromanaged angry misery.


I have to agree with jld on this one. 

A man who has decided to sleep in his own bed will do so. 
Even if a man feels he has no choice, he still has a choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> I have to agree with jld on this one.


 You'd be agreeing with your own post that I liked. So, no, you agree with yourself as I do.



> A man who has decided to sleep in his own bed will do so.
> Even if a man feels he has no choice, he still has a choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If this was EXACTLY what she said, I'd agree. I'd explain, but I'm done with my part in the derail.

I found this list very interesting.


modernknight said:


> Since there were a few questions about what's good in this relationship. I thought I'd write some plus(+)/minus(-) points. To be honest, some of the minus points are so serious that the advice will probably be to leave the relationship.
> 
> + she's funny and makes me laugh
> + spirited (she's strong willed and I love that; even if it makes things a little difficult sometimes)
> ...


What I find interesting: 
How you combine MINUSES to make them appear smaller than the positives.
Your extreme self blame.

After reading your other threads, I'd be curious to see if you are a White Knight. You admit you have never had a girlfriend who acted this poorly yet, you stay. So, are you staying as a father figure or because you see her struggling?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> How did you get that from me asking if I should kick my wife out of bed the next time I'm not happy with her? Does asking that question mean that I kicked her out of bed?
> 
> Or, asking her how she would feel if I told her she was not allowed to sleep in her bed. Does that mean that I kicked her out of bed?
> 
> ...


You asked if you should kick her out. I asked if you had asked her. You said, "I have." That's where I got that.

Are we getting two different meanings from that exchange?

And it does sound like you have an equal relationship. And there is nothing wrong with that.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> You asked if you should kick her out. I asked if you had asked her. You said, "I have." That's where I got that.
> 
> Are we getting two different meanings from that exchange?
> 
> And it does sound like you have an equal relationship. And there is nothing wrong with that.


Jld, I really dont care what you call our relationship. That is the second time tonight that you have said that I have an equal relationship. I'm not sure why you want to continuously define our relationship for us... but, hey, have at it. 

Ultimately, I see a relationship as being equal when both participants are getting their needs met equally well. And as far as I know, that is happening in my relationship with my wife. 

If you would like to discuss how we view each others relationships, why not make a thread on it? I'm sure it would be quite interesting. What do you say? Shall we create a thread where we can spend time coming up with labels for the relationship dynamics of others? I could define yours and you could define mine, and we could both avoid bringing senseless assertions into the threads of others. 

Or, perhaps it's best we not try and label each other?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sorry to upset you, Asla. 

The important thing is to be happy with your relationship.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> You asked if you should kick her out. I asked if you had asked her. You said, "I have." That's where I got that.
> 
> Are we getting two different meanings from that exchange?
> 
> And it does sound like you have an equal relationship. And there is nothing wrong with that.


On a more related note, asking her how she would feel if I told her to sleep on the couch is not the same as telling her to sleep on the couch. 

We may be getting two different things from that exchange...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Sorry to upset you, Asla.
> 
> The important thing is to be happy with your relationship.


So wait, no thread?!

Your no fun!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> On a more related note, asking her how she would feel if I told her to sleep on the couch is not the same as telling her to sleep on the couch.
> 
> We may be getting two different things from that exchange...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think so.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> So wait, no thread?!
> 
> Your no fun!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Just read the first page of posts but I would tell her to stop acting like one if she doesn't want to be called one.

You are too nice of a guy. Toughen up and start making more demands and standing your ground.

Also tell her to stop acting like a 
b1tch because you didn't marry her to be disrespected and if she keeps shytting where she eats you will be gone and she can see how much of a man will be interested in a nasty , rude woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

They are not married, Conan. 

There are ways to solve their problems without getting aggressive and causing either to become defensive.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

I believe there are a number of underlying reasons someone who is upset might try to make themselves feel better by laying claim to shared space. The reason you mentioned is likely fairly common. 

But if a marriage is judged by how well it brings out the best in the partners, rewarding childish 'pseudo' power grabs is not healthy behavior. 

In a healthy marriage the way this actually works looks something like this. 

Scenario 1: 
P1 and P2 scuffle (not physically of course). Let's say they both give as good as they get. One of them wants some space and picks up their pillow. The other person has some choices at that point. One of them is to try and persuade their spouse not to leave. The other is to offer to be the one who cedes the room. 

Scenario 2: 
In this case, they both realize that P2 was at fault. P1 goes to leave and P2 says: No, this fight was my fault if you need some space I will leave the room. In that situation - it's likely that the conflict begins to end right there. And P1 neither leaves nor accepts P2's offer to leave. 

-------
Indulging childish tantrums is not part of helping someone be the best version of them self. 

And IMHO trying to claim ownership of shared space via summary eviction is engaging in a childish tantrum. 





jld said:


> I thought I _was_ responding to it.
> 
> MEM, I think OP's gf felt threatened by OP. To some, that might sound ridiculous. But if she senses a power advantage to him, and I can certainly see one in terms of their finances, I can see how she tried to even the field by asking him to sleep on the couch. She was trying to psychologically protect herself by asserting that she had power, too. Does that make sense?
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

(Gently) MEM, is this discussion hitting close to home?

I certainly like the sound of scenario 2 better. Gentleness and humility can work wonders in marriage. 

I think when a tantrum is going on, a need is not being met. Figuring out what the need is can not only stop the tantrum, but deepen the trust between the partners.

And I know you already know this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
Not in the slightest, none of your posts has altered my resting pulse or blood pressure.   

And M2 sees this situation exactly the same as I do. The person who wants space goes elsewhere because.... 

It's perfectly fine to walk away from a shared space to put some distance between you and your partner, it's dysfunctionally aggressive to claim ownership of it. 

And I believe you are combining two things that I view as radically different:
- The unfiltered expression of emotion (which I consider a plus)
And
- The belief that you have the right to DEMAND that your partner physically comply with your wishes 

Two totally separate things. 

Not sure why you find this distinction so troublesome. 



jld said:


> (Gently) MEM, is this discussion hitting close to home?
> 
> I certainly like the sound of scenario 2 better. Gentleness and humility can work wonders in marriage.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conan,

While I find her behavior (as described) as distasteful as the rest of us reading the thread, I have a somewhat different strategy.

Her underlying anxiety about the imminent arrival of family is totally normal. IME women expect to be judged on the state of the home and worry far more about perfecting it for guests than their male counterparts. 

While M2 doesn't do anything close to the nonsense described in this thread, she does get anxious. 

The OP would have been better served directly hitting the reassure button, rather than anxiously trying to appease his partner. 

Soft voiced - locked eye contact: The place is going to look great, and we're going to have a nice visit today. 

And then if she stays in combative mode: Ok well I'm going to go for a run, I'll see you when I return. 

This typically works better than his approval seeking behavior which was simply triggering her aggression. 






ConanHub said:


> Just read the first page of posts but I would tell her to stop acting like one if she doesn't want to be called one.
> 
> You are too nice of a guy. Toughen up and start making more demands and standing your ground.
> 
> ...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Conan,
> 
> While I find her behavior (as described) as distasteful as the rest of us reading the thread, I have a somewhat different strategy.
> 
> ...


 If this was a one off, I'd agree with you. Yet, she has had these outbursts for the 5 months he has been posting. So, while family may be a normal issue, he has been trained this is normal behavior for her regardless of the reason.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deep sigh. 

There is a certain class of behavior that is best treated with a 180. Sadly the OP seems to lack the self control needed to pull that off. 

I have written a lot in the past year about how rarely M2 and I fight, and what a happy change that is for both of us. 

That said, we still do have the occasional scuffle. 

We (M2 and I) make a sharp distinction between conflict that escalates to combat, and what we call 'sucker punching'. 

Sucker punching happens when one person lets something build up in their head til they suddenly erupt in aggression without warning. 

M2 did that Monday morning. She came home Monday after work still staring daggers at me. I said hello and left her alone. I chose to sleep upstairs Monday night. Tuesday we texted back and forth. 

Now - we consider sucker punching really bad. But for me there's one thing that is actually worse than being sucker punched. And that is being gas lighted. 

Through out the day on Tuesday, text messages went back and forth. The gist of mine was short and consistent. We went to sleep smiling Sunday night and you woke up Monday morning and sucker punched me. 

The gist of M2's texts was first: you suck - followed by long list
Then became: I have no idea why you're mad at me 
Then on to: Don't you understand why I was mad at you

I remained focused on: I don't like being sucker punched. And doubly dislike you pretending you didn't do that - because that's gas lighting. And that's a 'no go' in my world. 

Tuesday night I slept upstairs. 

And just for full disclosure. I don't like doing this. I've simply learned that until M2 calms down (which 99% of the time takes 1-3 days) she is in psychological warfare mode. With gas lighting being the primary strategy. 

Wednesday morning I wake up to M2 hugging me and hysterically crying saying:
- I'm sorry I sucker punched you
- Sorry I gas lighted you
- Please don't leave me (extra deep sigh - I never hinted I was leaving her - never in any way threatened her - but this is the normal end to these situations)

I hug her back, reassure her. Later that morning she texts me a profuse apology. 

That night I get the hysterical bonding sex - which is actually very hot. 

And she's been super 'into me/all over me' since. If there was a shortcut, some sort of emotional wormhole we could jump through to compress this to hours - I would do it. Sometimes there just isn't. 

And the OP is 'feeding the monster' and then acting surprised when it grows. 

I'd describe my approach as - starving the monster. I don't fight it because you can't win. But starved of emotional energy it just collapses......







phillybeffandswiss said:


> If this was a one off, I'd agree with you. Yet, she has had these outbursts for the 5 months he has been posting. So, while family may be a normal issue, he has been trained this is normal behavior for her regardless of the reason.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, I am still getting the sense this might be hitting close to home. And I think you are courageous to be so honest with us about what happened between you and M2 the other night. 

Has M2 ever seriously contemplated being on her own? Does she realize she could do it successfully?

I think abandonment fears can hold any of us back tremendously. But any of us, at any time, could face the sudden death of our partner. We would have to go forward alone. And we might find we are more capable than we realize.

I agree with you that addressing the underlying emotion in OP's gf would have been a more successful strategy than just trying to go along and get along, and then getting mad and pouting in the bedroom. I think with some more self-confidence, and training in non-violent, non-coercive approaches to conflict resolution, OP could handle things much more constructively in the future.

Specifically on a woman asking a man to sleep outside the bedroom . . . I really think it is just her trying to feel some sort of her own power in the middle of a conflict. If it is in a relationship where the man does not feel powerful, I can see why he might react strongly against her. He wants to protect his own sense of personal power. 

But I think a man who understands power dynamics well is going to see her insecurity and choose a wise way to handle it, something that increases her trust in him, and does not lessen it, and cause further emotion. To me, the 180 may not do that. To me, the 180 may escalate conflict, or simply encourage the woman to reconsider her commitment to a man who walks away rather than constructively confronting the issues, committed to a mutually agreeable resolution.

MEM, I think you come from the idea that the partners are truly equal. But in reality, I don't think that is always the case. If one partner fears abandonment much more than the other, I don't think there is true equality there. And in such a case, I do not think it is kind to let the more dependent partner's abandonment fears keep terrorizing her, even if it seems to benefit the more powerful partner. I think it is unethical.

I think this is an important discussion we are having, and I appreciate your sharing your thoughts. It is giving me a chance to examine my own feelings and my own experiences. I hope it gives some perspective to OP, too.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> Sorry to upset you, Asla.
> 
> The important thing is to be happy with your relationship.


Why would you presume that you have the "power" to upset him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Why would you presume that you have the "power" to upset him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He seemed upset. It seemed to be in reaction to my post. 

Do you see it differently?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> But if a marriage is judged by how well it brings out the best in the partners, rewarding childish 'pseudo' power grabs is not healthy behavior.


MEM, why do you label her behavior as childish? 

Her behavior is what it is. The OP may not agree with it, but putting the childish label on it is already passing a judgement.

The best thing the OP can do is taking an attitude of humility and treating his girl friend with respect.

She kicked him out of the bedroom because she wants to be heard. To hear her he needs to listen. If in his mind he views her behavior as childish or wrong, it is not going to be easy to listen. 

Sleeping on the coach is not the end of the world. What is more important is to change the dynamic and get the communication going again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dug,

IMO she kicks him out of the bedroom because she wants to punish him. Not because she wants to be 'heard'. 

And yes, I do consider that to be childish behavior. Just as a child throws a screaming tantrum because they aren't getting their way. 

If your child demanded you 'leave the room' so they could feel in control, would you do so? 





Duguesclin said:


> MEM, why do you label her behavior as childish?
> 
> Her behavior is what it is. The OP may not agree with it, but putting the childish label on it is already passing a judgement.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

I'm really, truly not upset. I just disagree with you. 

As far as living without me, M2 would be fine as far as the 'mechanics of life' are concerned. She would be financially stable and knows how to run the day to day just fine. 

Emotionally it would be a total train wreck for both of us. With the difference being that M2 doesn't believe she could re partner and I'm confident I'd easily re partner when ready to do so. 





jld said:


> He seemed upset. It seemed to be in reaction to my post.
> 
> Do you see it differently?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, what do you think a tantrum fundamentally is, for a child or an adult, but a cry to be heard, and understood? 

Any desire to "punish," in my opinion, is born out of a lack of feeling understood. Much better to seek to understand, and thereby diffuse any desire to protect oneself by "punishing."


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> MEM, what do you think a tantrum fundamentally is, for a child or an adult, but a cry to be heard, and understood?
> 
> Any desire to "punish," in my opinion, is born out of a lack of feeling understood. Much better to seek to understand, and thereby diffuse any desire to protect oneself by "punishing."


While I agree with this in principle, there also reaches a point where the behavior in reacting escalates to unacceptable.

For example, if my child slams doors or destroys something while acting out, then consequences follow. 

It is okay to be angry. It is not okay to take your anger out on things or people.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I'm really, truly not upset. I just disagree with you.
> 
> ...


What she thinks right now might not be the reality were you two to separate. And she might find she is happy alone. That could be empowering for her.

MEM, I think in a healthy relationship, each partner can emotionally handle the thought of being alone. I have been thinking a lot about this lately, and am striving for that. I have been too emotionally dependent on my husband for too long. It is not healthy. I need to be able to stand emotionally on my own. 

Unlike your wife, I would have a learning curve in other ways, too, if Dug were no longer here. I have not been employed for twenty years. I am not involved with investments. I don't do anything with the cars, or the furnace, or the yard, or the computers. Dug is the tech/mechanical guy around here, as well as the one doing all heavy jobs. It sounds like your wife has all that covered.

We want to promote healthy marriages here, right? To have a healthy marriage, we need two healthy individuals. OP's gf is not healthy, and it sounds like OP is not, either. I hope we can give them some suggestions for non-coercive, trust-building ways to become healthier.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> While I agree with this in principle, there also reaches a point where the behavior in reacting escalates to unacceptable.
> 
> For example, if my child slams doors or destroys something while acting out, then consequences follow.
> 
> It is okay to be angry. It is not okay to take your anger out on things or people.


My kids hear about it when they slam doors, too, far. We paid a lot of money for these doors! 

But the only thing I have found to truly diffuse the anger that motivated the door slamming is to hear their side of the argument and help them come to some kind of understanding with the person they are angry with.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

I think this is an important topic. 

A few general comments. 

In some cases the emotion is caused by a perceived communication failure. In others, it's caused by the fury of being 'defied'. Meaning, your partner understands what you want but simply refuses to do it. 

That means that in some cases this looks like: 
- You won't do what I want
- Now I'm furious
- So I'm going to punish you by (fill in the blank - including asserting control of a shared space)

That's a failure to comply not a failure to understand. And for someone who so consistently supports the idea of adults using 'persuasion' vs. 'punishment' to shape each other's behavior I'd think this would all make sense to you. 



QUOTE=jld;13503666]MEM, what do you think a tantrum fundamentally is, for a child or an adult, but a cry to be heard, and understood? 

Any desire to "punish," in my opinion, is born out of a lack of feeling understood. Much better to seek to understand, and thereby diffuse any desire to protect oneself by "punishing."[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

Perhaps part of the reason you are so dependent on Dug is that he hasn't insisted that you address certain issues. 

By fully accepting you from the start, Dug deprived you of certain types of feedback that might have helped you become more self sufficient. 

He did so out of kindness, just not so sure the result is what YOU want. 


QUOTE=jld;13503730]What she thinks right now might not be the reality were you two to separate. And she might find she is happy alone. That could be empowering for her.

MEM, I think in a healthy relationship, each partner can emotionally handle the thought of being alone. I have been thinking a lot about this lately, and am striving for that. I have been too emotionally dependent on my husband for too long. It is not healthy. I need to be able to stand emotionally on my own. 

Unlike your wife, I would have a learning curve in other ways, too, if Dug were no longer here. I have not been employed for twenty years. I am not involved with investments. I don't do anything with the cars, or the furnace, or the yard, or the computers. Dug is the tech/mechanical guy around here, as well as the one doing all heavy jobs. It sounds like your wife has all that covered.

We want to promote healthy marriages here, right? To have a healthy marriage, we need two healthy individuals. OP's gf is not healthy, and it sounds like OP is not, either. I hope we can give them some suggestions for non-coercive, trust-building ways to become healthier.[/QUOTE]


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I think this is an important topic.
> 
> ...


I think the bolded is confusing. The person who is not complying may or may not understand why the person making the demand is so angry. But finding out could go far in resolving the conflict.

MEM, what do you think is our fundamental disagreement here? What specifically do you think I am seeing incorrectly?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Perhaps part of the reason you are so dependent on Dug is that he hasn't insisted that you address certain issues.
> 
> ...


I needed love when I was 22. I needed safety, and direction. Dug provided that. And I have idealized him in many ways for it.

But he is not perfect, and I have value, too. That has been hard for me to see. But it is true. Whenever we can see truth, we can benefit from it.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Perhaps part of the reason you are so dependent on Dug is that he hasn't insisted that you address certain issues.
> 
> ...


I did not deprive JLD of feedback that could have helped her. I have disappointed her for not being the man she thought I was. As a consequence she has had to adjust.

Maybe a better question to the OP is what does his girl friend want him to be. Calling her a b1tch when she is stressed is not what she expected. Suggesting to him that her sending him to sleeping on the coach is childish is not going to bring anything positive for his relationship.

Understanding where she is coming from, a place of weakness, is far more helpful.


----------



## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Both of you were wrong. However, your biggest problem is the unhealthy power dynamics in your marriage. 

Work on being less of a doormat and your wife will have no choice but to gain far more respect for you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> I did not deprive JLD of feedback that could have helped her. I have disappointed her for not being the man she thought I was. As a consequence she has had to adjust.
> 
> Maybe a better question to the OP is what does his girl friend want him to be. Calling her a b1tch when she is stressed is not what she expected. Suggesting to him that her sending him to sleeping on the coach is childish is not going to bring anything positive for his relationship.
> 
> Understanding where she is coming from, a place of weakness, is far more helpful.


Dug:

I would respectfully argue that what you are demonstrating in this post is exactly what Mem suggested.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Dug:
> 
> I would respectfully argue that what you are demonstrating in this post is exactly what Mem suggested.


How so?


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> How so?


The implication of his post is that you have done no wrong in the relationship, and that all failings have been his. And to some degree he is taking the high road, which I understand and respect.

However, if you have never done wrong, there should be no need for growth, correct?

If Dug is correct, you need no growth. So why are you insisting that you do in fact need to grow?

Remember the conversation we had regarding enabling? Not pointing out to your partner where they fall short enables the behavior to continue. And I am not suggesting it be done in a malicious way, but from a place of concern.

But simply not acknowledging that you have shortcomings is (I believe) exactly what Mem meant when he said that your dynamic has led to you being less independent.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

Out of everyone on TAM, I've learned the most from you. So umm, I admit to being dumbfounded to read the phrase 'I have value too'. 

You have a massive reservoir of positive emotional energy and a deep understanding of people. 

Perhaps like M2, you equate love with need. That's just not how I'm wired. Nor I am guessing is Dug like that. 

I think the compliance thing is frightfully simple. 

M2 is/was dependent on me. She believed that if I loved her enough I'd just do what she wanted. And in reverse, the refusal to do what she asked, implied that I didn't love her so much, which was a scary thing given her dependence. Fear converts to anger. 

A paragraph I've avoided writing for many years. 

All I can say is that when I've already done a half dozen things today because I love M2, and she fixates and explodes on the one point of disagreement, I feel tired. 




jld said:


> I needed love when I was 22. I needed safety, and direction. Dug provided that. And I have idealized him in many ways for it.
> 
> But he is not perfect, and I have value, too. That has been hard for me to see. But it is true. Whenever we can see truth, we can benefit from it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> He seemed upset. It seemed to be in reaction to my post.
> 
> Do you see it differently?


Aww, how cute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> The implication of his post is that you have done no wrong in the relationship, and that all failings have been his. And to some degree he is taking the high road, which I understand and respect.
> 
> However, if you have never done wrong, there should be no need for growth, correct?
> 
> ...


Whenever my wife has yelled at me, she has apologized later. She knows when she is wrong and she does not need me to tell her. She is sensitive and she will ask me. The point is not if she is wrong, but what was the trigger for the behavior. 

For the OP, focusing on how wrong it is to have him sleep on the coach is not going to help. Let him work on his issues. His girl friend will apologize later.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dug,

I've never suggested his behavior was ok. I've stayed focused on the question of who owns the bedroom. 

And I say this next bit with light, well intentioned humor. 

A common marital trajectory results in:
- The wife seeing her H as a disappointment
And
- The H seeing his wife as crazy

I'm not suggesting you see JLD that way, but her disappointment seems to be there. 

I think a fair question to ask is this: How have each of you changed over the years? 




Duguesclin said:


> I did not deprive JLD of feedback that could have helped her. I have disappointed her for not being the man she thought I was. As a consequence she has had to adjust.
> 
> Maybe a better question to the OP is what does his girl friend want him to be. Calling her a b1tch when she is stressed is not what she expected. Suggesting to him that her sending him to sleeping on the coach is childish is not going to bring anything positive for his relationship.
> 
> Understanding where she is coming from, a place of weakness, is far more helpful.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> Whenever my wife has yelled at me, she has apologized later. She knows when she is wrong and she does not need me to tell her. She is sensitive and she will ask me. The point is not if she is wrong, but what was the trigger for the behavior.
> 
> For the OP, focusing on how wrong it is to have him sleep on the coach is not going to help. Let him work on his issues. His girl friend will apologize later.


I guess you have never met a woman who refuses to apologize when she has done something wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Whenever my wife has yelled at me, she has apologized later. She knows when she is wrong and she does not need me to tell her. She is sensitive and she will ask me. The point is not if she is wrong, but what was the trigger for the behavior.
> 
> For the OP, focusing on how wrong it is to have him sleep on the coach is not going to help. Let him work on his issues. His girl friend will apologize later.


Dug, I respect that you and JLD naturally expect that people will eventually demonstrate remorse and rational behavior. It says something about just how healthy those aspects of your relationship are.

But many people have experienced something completely different.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Conan,
> 
> While I find her behavior (as described) as distasteful as the rest of us reading the thread, I have a somewhat different strategy.
> 
> ...


Could be. I am just offering an approach that works well in many circumstances. I have not forgotten your good point that what works for me may not work for everyone and I agree. My point of view is valid however and my take can be valuable advice as well as others.

Mrs. Conan can, and has, fallen into poor behavior similar to OPs wife under stress. I am not a nice guy and while I will lay my life down for her, she will never disrespect my life or be allowed to shyt on our marriage.

This woman seems to need a little harder of a man. Not everyone does but in this case, I think yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> I guess you have never met a woman who refuses to apologize when she has done something wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am indeed spoiled.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Out of everyone on TAM, I've learned the most from you. So umm, I admit to being dumbfounded to read the phrase 'I have value too'.
> 
> You have a massive reservoir of positive emotional energy and a deep understanding of people.


Thank you, MEM. 

I am very sensitive and easily hurt and frightened. My sense of my own value has always been shaky. 

I think people like me, who struggle with low self-esteem, tend to idealize people they admire. Dug has many strengths I do not have, and I have always felt inferior to him. I always felt like he could have had a better wife, even though he assured me he wanted me.

Recently we had a conflict that left me pretty disillusioned with Dug's response. As hard as it would be to leave Dug, I knew then that I would be willing to do it. And that was empowering. Sad, but empowering. And I could not have gotten there without a sense that I have value, too. 



> Perhaps like M2, you equate love with need. That's just not how I'm wired. Nor I am guessing is Dug like that.
> 
> I think the compliance thing is frightfully simple.
> 
> ...


I am sure that is exhausting. For both of you.

MEM, all I can say from my own experience is that when a woman finally feels in her heart that she can leave a man and be okay, not running to another man, or to her friends, or to her parents, but really and truly be okay on her own, the power she gives over almost unconsciously to her husband starts to stay in herself. She becomes calmer. She does not get angry so easily. Problems become more manageable, less daunting. She relaxes.

She can see him, and herself, more realistically. He is no longer a god, and she is not worthless. Things come into balance. And that takes a lot of stress off both of them.

When you say your wife is terrified you will leave, I am concerned. She should feel bad for treating you in a way she would not like to be treated, and apologize for it. But there should not be terror at the thought of your leaving, for any reason. She has value on her own, just for herself. She was born alone and she will die alone and she has value all alone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

She's terrified at the 'thought' of me leaving. That is despite me reassuring her that: I am in this til the end 

And yeah she idealizes me. Which is hard on both of us. 




jld said:


> Thank you, MEM.
> 
> I am very sensitive and easily hurt and frightened. My sense of my own value has always been shaky.
> 
> ...


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

jld said:


> Thank you, MEM.
> 
> I am very sensitive and easily hurt and frightened. My sense of my own value has always been shaky.
> 
> ...


You just described where my wife has gotten to, and where she came from, in one post. Nice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

We all have moments of intense disillusion. They fade over time.

I have a mild phobia of flying. It only manifests during:
- turbulence 
- landing (yes I have a mildly tense 30 seconds on every landing)

But for all those years I flew, as we'd go to land I'd lean back, smile and think of the HUGE settlement M2 would get if the plane crashed. That was on top of my large life insurance policy. 

Pictured her getting that nice beachfront vacation house she's always wanted. Now she knows all this - and knowing all this still did what I describe below. 

Right at the point where her EA had just ended - which I didn't realize at the time - during a time when she was behaving overall about as poorly as she ever has in our whole marriage - she complained about me buying a first class upgrade with 'our' money. Yep - $70. At the time I was the sole breadwinner and we were living WAY under our means. 

So buckle up - because the rest of this is the ugly reality of my internal mental response to that. 

Who is this selfish, hateful person I'm married to? How did we reach a place where no matter what she has, she begrudges me petty stuff like this. Why do I put her first? Why would I even consider continuing to do that? 

And this bits important. Sure she apologized immediately for saying that but in a sense it was one of the final straws for me in terms of rebalancing the marriage. That was the beginning of me doing stuff - for me - and when M2 challenged it for the first time she discovered that I simply wouldn't engage. I just 'did'. 

Along the way, she's become a much nicer person in the process. 

And kept her sense of humor. 





jld said:


> Thank you, MEM.
> 
> I am very sensitive and easily hurt and frightened. My sense of my own value has always been shaky.
> 
> ...


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

jld said:


> My kids hear about it when they slam doors, too, far. We paid a lot of money for these doors!
> 
> But the only thing I have found to truly diffuse the anger that motivated the door slamming is to hear their side of the argument and help them come to some kind of understanding with the person they are angry with.


I heard of a very good solution to door slamming. A parent of a teenager got tired of the repeated door slamming and removed the door.

Our daughter went through a period where she would argue, flee to her room and slam the door. Later, when she calmed down, I got out a screw driver and checked it would fit. She of course wanted to know what I was doing, so I explained the story and said, "the next time you slam this door it comes off for a week". It was rarely slammed after that.

Not sure how this relates to the OP and his situation. I think she is behaving like a teenager or child, unable to control her emotions and lashing out. But I don't see an equivalent consequence, like removing the door. 

I suppose he could establish the rule that the next time she lashes out like that she sleeps on the sofa. I doubt that would be accepted or effective. Part of the issue, I think, is she doesn't see that she has an issue. At least my daughter realised slamming doors is wrong. And I think he is not centered enough to be establishing rules. He needs to control his reactions better before he can hope to 'fix' hers.

Maybe he could use the fact that they are not married, something like: 
" Honey I love you and would love to get married, but our anger issues worry me. I think we both should do anger management courses / IC / whatever first."


And personally "b***h" doesn't rate high on my swearing scale. 

It seems to me more like she doesn't accept him reacting in kind. Not saying he should swear back at her. 
"You'll be fine. I'm going for a run" seemed best.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Remember the conversation we had regarding enabling? Not pointing out to your partner where they fall short enables the behavior to continue. And I am not suggesting it be done in a malicious way, but from a place of concern.
> 
> But simply not acknowledging that you have shortcomings is (I believe) exactly what Mem meant when he said that your dynamic has led to you being less independent.


The thing is that we don't get to decide how other people should grow. The most we can do is gently and tactfully suggest that their current track is possibly not the direction they really want to be going in. 

And love them hard, and give them the space to be themselves, to feel sure enough in themselves that they can indeed do and be more.

This is the strength and beauty of jld and Dug's story, IMHO. He refuses to see her as broken and needing to be fixed to meet his set parameters of who she ought to be and how she should act. In turn, she's discovered that indeed, she isn't broken, and has tremendous capability and value.

The usual advice given on TAM is about withdrawal, to protect self, and "correction" as though the spouse is a child that just needs to be taught some manners. From where I sit, all this can accomplish is to generate more fear and resentment, not less. You may motivate someone to do what you want in the short term, be it doling out sex or not slamming doors, but you are also reinforcing escalation of their negative behaviours by demonstrating how real their fears really are.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Whenever my wife has yelled at me, she has apologized later. She knows when she is wrong and she does not need me to tell her. She is sensitive and she will ask me. The point is not if she is wrong, but what was the trigger for the behavior.


Thinking about it, while my wife has always apologized when she was wrong, I have not. Actually I often have a hard time to see that I am wrong. And even when I do realize I am wrong, I often have a hard time to say I am sorry.

I don't usually take things personally and I assume that others don't either. But we are all different and we should not think we all take things the same way.

To a man being called an ******* may not be a big deal, but for a woman being called a ***** might be a different story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> She's terrified at the 'thought' of me leaving. That is despite me reassuring her that: I am in this til the end
> 
> And yeah she idealizes me. Which is hard on both of us.


My guess?

She's terrified at her level of dependence on you. This is why she goes through the ritual of pushing you away for a few days. She needs to prove to herself she isn't as dependent as she is.

If that makes any sense.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> Thinking about it, while my wife has always apologized when she was wrong, I have not. Actually I often have a hard time to see that I am wrong. And even when I do realize I am wrong, I often have a hard time to say I am sorry.
> 
> I don't usually take things personally and I assume that others don't either. But we are all different and we should not think we all take things the same way.
> 
> ...


Some women actually have no problem with being called a *****. 
It's just in their nature to want a good scuffle. Maybe they want make up sex? Maybe they enjoy the thought of being defeated in a fight by someone who will let them know, at the end of it, that they still love them?

What do you do in those situations? I'm inclined to give them what they want. So if a woman appears to want a fight, she will get one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> Some women actually have no problem with being called a *****.
> It's just in their nature to want a good scuffle. Maybe they want make up sex? Maybe they enjoy the thought of being defeated in a fight by someone who will let them know, at the end of it, that they still love them?
> 
> What do you do in those situations? I'm inclined to give them what they want. So if a woman appears to want a fight, she will get one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not think OP's girl friend is of that type.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> I do not think OP's girl friend is of that type.


She may not be. But, at the same time, she may. For those women who want the fight, they must first overcome the thought that their is something wrong with them for wanting a fight. They cannot overcome that alone... it takes someone being willing to fight them and still tell them that they love them. 

OP has not, and probably will not, go down that rabbit hole. Most dont. They usually dovorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

All of this because you called her a b!tch ?

Wow.. 

I cannot begin to say the things I called my GF during fights..


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

OP, I see that a woman being called a b!tch is bad but not huge, others say it is huge. But the real question is what does your GF feel. So maybe, once calm sanity returns, work with her on a scale of swear words for each of you. 

And being yelled at etc could also be on that scale. My guess is she sees repeated yelling as bad, but hasn't admitted to herself that she does it. 

Perhaps this could also give her a way to describe things you do that make her anxious. Not that I see you as having done anything wrong. But she is anxious/tense/worried/whatever and probably expects you to be doing some magic manly thing to fix it for her. While I think this may involve you taking on some extra unfair burden she may relax somewhat and the dynamic between you two could improve. But the huge danger is it also could end up with you being a doormat for her and her not changing.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Name calling is something you should be taught not to do in childhood. It's not about what the word is, it's about the intent, and honestly, by the time you reach adulthood you should be able to articulate your feelings a lot better than, "you're a *****". It's not helpful in any situation.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Normally I'd agree, but every person has limits. He only called her this after a string of negative insulting comments from her, then being told to f*ck off, topped off with a deliberate insult to his parents. And this wasn't during a fight or disagreement, this was one way from her.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> And the OP is 'feeding the monster' and then acting surprised when it grows.
> 
> I'd describe my approach as - starving the monster. I don't fight it because you can't win. But starved of emotional energy it just collapses......


I agree with everything, but this part. Many people give advice based on their successes or failures, but they tend to forget how far ahead they are in their relationships. You can't starve a monster if you don't realize it exists or you believe you are the monster. He's still clinging to hope he is the monster and as evidenced by another poster believes he can let it "fall off his back." I was taught to bury feeling as well and I'd bet many others were also. You know, the whole "kill people with kindness" cliche, which I believe is utter crap when used in the context of a relationship.

Counseling is needed to determine why he stays in this quagmire.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> To a man being called an ******* may not be a big deal, but for a woman being called a ***** might be a different story.


Honestly, semantics and feelings don't matter.
If you decide to use angry hurtful speech, be prepared for escalation and don't pretend to be offended, hurt or surprised when equally or according to personal beliefs worse disparaging words are hurled right back at you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,

Yes. Yes. And Yes. 

And that really is ok. 

I sleep upstairs when M2 has 'pushed me away' with hostility. When she's in that mode I'm 'the enemy' so I give her space. 

But I don't mess with her when she's ready to make up. 

Usually we have a short, rational conversation about what she was upset about and I give her an empathy bath. The exact same thing she would have gotten at the start had she skipped the sucker punch. 




always_alone said:


> My guess?
> 
> She's terrified at her level of dependence on you. This is why she goes through the ritual of pushing you away for a few days. She needs to prove to herself she isn't as dependent as she is.
> 
> If that makes any sense.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why not go to empathy right away, MEM?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Honestly, semantics and feelings don't matter.
> If you decide to use angry hurtful speech, be prepared for escalation and don't pretend to be offended, hurt or surprised when equally or according to personal beliefs worse disparaging words are hurled right back at you.


So it is helpful to escalate?

That is how wars start.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> So it is helpful to escalate?


Where in my posts did I address helpful, right or wrong? I didn't, this is your Red Herring. Ask his wife, she continued to escalate in this entire situation. People are human and sometimes they do what is right, wrong or indifferent. The best part is what is right for me, especially concerning morals, may not be right for you.


Duguesclin said:


> That is how wars start.


You forgot the word "Some" in your post.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She was trying to get her need met, philly. Addressing her need could rechannel her energy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## D1C (Aug 29, 2015)

Maybe this was already discussed but why stay? That environment isn't healthy for all 3of you


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think he loves her.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

D1C said:


> Maybe this was already discussed but why stay? That environment isn't healthy for all 3of you


It has been discussed, but he never really gives a concrete answer.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

When faced with anger - I respond with empathy. 

Hostility is a whole different story. Because this isn't about transparency, which is a virtue. It isn't hard to be completely transparent without being hostile. 

The price of hostility is solitude. And the solitude lasts as long as the hostility. 




jld said:


> Why not go to empathy right away, MEM?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> When faced with anger - I respond with empathy.
> 
> Hostility is a whole different story. Because this isn't about transparency, which is a virtue. It isn't hard to be completely transparent without being hostile.
> 
> The price of hostility is solitude. And the solitude lasts as long as the hostility.


What do you think is behind the hostility?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> Why not go to empathy right away, MEM?


Because it won't help, jld. If I am at all right in my guess, then empathy after the fact is something that she absolutely needs, but empathy at the time is not at all what she seeking. Indeed, it might make matters worse by making her feel even more dependent.

The only way for her to break the cycle would be for her to, much like you have, discover her value, independently and inside of herself. Until she does this, she will keep being plagued by her doubts and fears, letting them build until she pushes everyone away and regains her center.

Unfortunately, this is something she will have to do for herself. MEM can't really help her with it, no matter how much he might want to. Except maybe to gently encourage her to take on more independent or empowering activities


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Because it won't help, jld. If I am at all right in my guess, then empathy after the fact is something that she absolutely needs, but empathy at the time is not at all what she seeking. Indeed, it might make matters worse by making her feel even more dependent.
> 
> The only way for her to break the cycle would be for her to, much like you have, discover her value, independently and inside of herself. Until she does this, she will keep being plagued by her doubts and fears, letting them build until she pushes everyone away and regains her center.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is something she will have to do for herself. MEM can't really help her with it, no matter how much he might want to. Except maybe to gently encourage her to take on more independent or empowering activities


I guess she and I are different that way, then. I absolutely want empathy, always. 

Genuine empathy, though. Not mechanical active listening meant to pacify me while Dug gets on with what he really wants to do.

There has to be a better way for her to drop her idealism of her husband than by his disillusioning her. I mean yes, it works, but it is so painful. 

The husband does grow, though. He has to face his shortcomings instead of knowing her fear of being without him will give him a pass.

Have you ever invited your wife here, MEM?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always,

I discovered what you describe in our first year together. When M2 gets hostile, trying to accelerate her path back to 'happy world' amplifies her anger and aggression. She needs to deal with her 'rage' by herself. 

When the fury leaves, M2 is left with guilt and fear. 

On the 'guilt' front I mostly stick with: I'm not fragile, we're fine. 

On the fear (of abandonment) issue I tell her the truth which is: 99 days out of a 100 are good to great, and the '100th' day keeps things interesting. 

I've accepted this is a hard wired trait. And I'm ok with it. 





always_alone said:


> Because it won't help, jld. If I am at all right in my guess, then empathy after the fact is something that she absolutely needs, but empathy at the time is not at all what she seeking. Indeed, it might make matters worse by making her feel even more dependent.
> 
> The only way for her to break the cycle would be for her to, much like you have, discover her value, independently and inside of herself. Until she does this, she will keep being plagued by her doubts and fears, letting them build until she pushes everyone away and regains her center.
> 
> Unfortunately, this is something she will have to do for herself. MEM can't really help her with it, no matter how much he might want to. Except maybe to gently encourage her to take on more independent or empowering activities


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It varies. 

This time it was a comment our son made to a friend of M2's. His comment embarrassed his mom. 

I was the reason for the comment. I rushed something we did with him, he complained in front of M2's friend who then decided to be catty and repeated the comment to M2. 

But anything that impacts our public 'image' can make M2 freak. 




jld said:


> What do you think is behind the hostility?


----------



## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

WAKE UP MEM, 
It's quite clear that your wife does not respect you any more.
You are weak and a doormat.
I used to be like you. When my wife started to treat me like that she was already having an affair.
Your wife was being a ***** and she had it coming. But FORGET about that already. It is totally irrelevant. 
You are missing the bigger picture.
She is sending you a message and you haven't heard it.
She is saying "I am frustrated that I am with an approval seeking, weak man and I want a leader, a strong man in my life"
If you don't wake up and hear this message, your marriage will soon be over. Mark my words.
WAKE UP!!!
NMMNG, read it again and again.
A strong man does not respond to abuse. He ignores it.
If you don't command respect, she will find someone who will.
Consider this your first and final warning.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

poida said:


> WAKE UP MEM,
> It's quite clear that your wife does not respect you any more.
> You are weak and a doormat.
> I used to be like you. When my wife started to treat me like that she was already having an affair.
> ...


Eh, what?

Are we reading the same thread?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

???

Mistake MEM for the OP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> ???
> 
> Mistake MEM for the OP?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Er, yep. Sorry OP.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, if you have made it clear to your wife that divorce is off the table, why does she keep asking you if you are going to leave her? Have you threatened that in the past?


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## luvinhim (Jun 25, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan can, and has, fallen into poor behavior similar to OPs wife under stress. I am not a nice guy and while I will lay my life down for her, she will never disrespect my life or be allowed to shyt on our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> conan, I have a secret crush on you. are are indeed a strong man. I like the way u think. lovn your woman, but will not under any circumstance let her mistreat you. you are the man!!!!!!!!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

jld said:


> I guess she and I are different that way, then. I absolutely want empathy, always.


Ultimately, I think we all want empathy, jld. That's why I think your voice here is so powerful and important.

But what counts as empathy looks very different for different people. Sometimes it really can mean to just give someone their space.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> On the 'guilt' front I mostly stick with: I'm not fragile, we're fine.
> 
> On the fear (of abandonment) issue I tell her the truth which is: 99 days out of a 100 are good to great, and the '100th' day keeps things interesting.
> 
> I've accepted this is a hard wired trait. And I'm ok with it.


That strikes me as some world-class empathy, MEM. It is too bad that she feels the need to strike out at you to claim the space she needs. 

But I sort of get it. Sometimes when we're feeling bad, we need some space to process it, and on our own terms. I'm sure she could find a nicer way to assert this need, but it may be that she just doesn't know any other way.

To bring this back to the OP, I would say that we would all benefit from extending this kind of empathy to our loved ones. It isn't always easy, especially when they are being insulting and rude. But I think more productive than punishment, an eye for an eye.

That said, if it is egregious, if too much of the negative is being displaced, blame-shifted, or if the spouse can't handle it, then, even with all the empathy in the world, it becomes a matter of self-preservation to step away.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Ultimately, I think we all want empathy, jld. That's why I think your voice here is so powerful and important.
> 
> But what counts as empathy looks very different for different people. Sometimes it really can mean to just give someone their space.


I understand that some people need to calm down before they can talk productively. But her coming back terrified that he will leave her is concerning. Why the extreme fear? There must be a reason for that.

I think there are things MEM could do to help his wife become more secure. I think sitting down and talking with her about her fears of public embarrassment could help, as well as asking her how he could help her feel safer. I think her "rage" at him is her hurt and fear from her feeling that he is not protecting her from some perceived danger. 

Even the "rage" could be discussed. How would she like him to deal with that? Does she want him to leave her alone? Does she want him to hold her? Does she want him to seek to understand her? What does she think could help her the most at those times?

But for any of this to get off the ground, MEM has to feel secure enough in himself to be open to her ideas. A desire to protect himself by punishing her or otherwise controlling her in any way may undermine any efforts put into making her feel more secure. She will sense his motives and her trust could be compromised.

MEM, I hope you do not think I am too hard on you here. I think your relationship with your wife could be stronger and calmer, and less stressful to both of you. I have to believe there is a non-coercive, trust-building way to get there. That is what I am seeking.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

Part of that - fear comes from the different way we perceive non shared activity time. 

M2 goes to meet her friend for coffee mid morning on a Saturday. She sometimes comes home mid to late afternoon. Walks in the door profusely apologizing. Which is exactly what she would want me to do, if the situation was reversed. But I don't think she has anything to apologize for and never get annoyed by her time with friends. I'm happy she has friends and has fun with them. 

My youngest has explained to me that her Mom sees my response pattern as reflective of me not loving her the way she loves me. 

This is that theme - love vs need. For her they are almost the same thing. For me they aren't. 





jld said:


> I understand that some people need to calm down before they can talk productively. But her coming back terrified that he will leave her is concerning. Why the extreme fear? There must be a reason for that.
> 
> I think there are things MEM could do to help his wife become more secure. I think sitting down and talking with her about her fears of public embarrassment could help, as well as asking her how he could help her feel safer. I think her "rage" at him is her hurt and fear from her feeling that he is not protecting her from some perceived danger.
> 
> ...


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

jld said:


> But he does not want to, or he would be doing that.


Not necessarily.

He may not have the emotional strength to leave, even if he wanted to.

Or, he may have financial issues that prevents him from leaving. (and it's not always about ability to support oneself)

Or, there may be social/family issues/pressures that prevent him from leaving (think about families from more traditional cultures in other countries). 

Or, any one of a number of other reasons in which he WANTS to leave, but cannot, or is afraid of the consequences.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

jld said:


> Not sure a woman can keep a man out who has decided he is going to stay in. Not with the typical size difference between men and women, anyway.



Really?

Think harder. He refuses to leave. She starts hitting or scratching him. He defends himself, or just puts up his arm to block her. She calls the police, claims (falsely) he is abusing her. 

Guess who usually will get arrested in that scenario?

Still think she can't keep him out?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Part of that - fear comes from the different way we perceive non shared activity time.
> 
> ...


Okay. But you know she needs that from you, right? So when she is offended, do you apologize in a way that she recognizes as genuine remorse?

I get it is work to have a high need partner. But they bring their own benefits, right?

Also, the fear I am talking about is her fear you will leave her. Did you threaten that in the past?

And have you invited her here?

MEM, do you not really want to discuss this? That is okay, if you do not. I can stop. I just think it would be fun to try to help you develop a stronger, healthier relationship with your wife that could be less stressful on both of you and does not use coercive techniques. I could learn a lot, too.

But if you are content with things as they are, then I wish you well.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maybe OP can respond to your questions tomorrow, Wolfman. Maybe he will be back then.

I think he can fix things with his girlfriend by becoming more secure in himself and reaching out to her in empathy. I think he loves her and wants to stay with her. But calling her names is not going to increase her trust in him.

Good night!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

strangely enough, my wife feared the thought of me leaving her far more when i always tried to tell her that i wouldnt leave her than she does now. nowadays, i tell her exactly what will cause me to leave her. far less triggers now. of course, nowadays, she knows what she can do to keep me around if she wants. she knows that if i am thinking about leaving, there is something she can do to stop that. 

and she also knows that i will give her every opportunity to do whatever it is that will keep me around. before i decide to leave. in other words, she knows that i will give her the opportunity to "fix it".

my unconditional support and affection did not make her feel safe. not because of me, but because of her own past experiences. my actions, at the time, did not meet her view of reality. telling her what my limits were and laying out a road map for how she can make me feel loved enough to stick it out, seemed believable. 

some people are like that. they have dragons in their pasts. that does not make them unlovable, but if you ignore them, you will fail to understand them. and you will fail to be able to get them to understand you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

Let's keep the two scenarios separate:
1. M2 coming home later than planned
2. Me coming home later than planned

Ideally for M2 my reaction to (1) would be that I'm 'upset'. Maybe jealous. This would demonstrate that I 'love/need' her. 

But this would be dishonest on two separate levels. 
- In my heart I don't feel that way. Don't feel jealous or needy or upset. I am HAPPY M2 has nice friends and enjoys her time with them. 
- In my head I don't consider that to be a loving thing to do. Quite the opposite. At its worst I consider it controlling and oppressive. Best case, it's insecurity expressed by way of a sense of ownership. 

As for me, when I come home later than planned - I don't 'dread game' M2 but neither do I encourage this theme of explaining or apologizing. If she NICELY asks me why I'm late, I answer. If she is being hostile I tell her I stopped for a quick visit at the local Knocking shop (brothel). If she seems genuinely anxious I do that thing - with her - where I ask her if she's worried about me/us. And I filter out the rest of the universe and hold her wrist softly until I feel her pulse drop below 70. 

-------
Do you think me - giving her space when she's overtly hostile - is coercive? in a way I think you're right. There is an element of coercion in the sense that I'm not going to fully engage while being gas lighted. 

For much of our marriage M2 was actually able to pull that off. She'd say stuff - the actual words were normal - but the tone was venemous. This used to push my blood pressure and pulse way into the red zone. And I'd ask: why are you mad at me?

And she'd say dead calm: I'm not mad, what are you talking about?

Let me freeze the frame right there. I now know WHY she did that. It was a defense mechanism. I was better with words, and WAY too aggressive with her when she was acting out of insecurity. 

So this was her way of compensating for that. 

But we're mostly past that now. She doesn't need to gas light me. And I'm doing what I can to discourage her from doing so. 


QUOTE=jld;13511554]Okay. But you know she needs that from you, right? So when she is offended, do you apologize in a way that she recognizes as genuine remorse?

I get it is work to have a high need partner. But they bring their own benefits, right?

Also, the fear I am talking about is her fear you will leave her. Did you threaten that in the past?

And have you invited her here?

MEM, do you not really want to discuss this? That is okay, if you do not. I can stop. I just think it would be fun to try to help you develop a stronger, healthier relationship with your wife that could be less stressful on both of you and does not use coercive techniques. I could learn a lot, too.

But if you are content with things as they are, then I wish you well. [/QUOTE]


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> strangely enough, my wife feared the thought of me leaving her far more when i always tried to tell her that i wouldnt leave her than she does now. nowadays, i tell her exactly what will cause me to leave her. far less triggers now.


I don't find this strange at all. I mean, clearly there are things you would leave her for. Why is it strange for her to doubt that your ove is unconditional?

Most, probably all, of us have conditions. To pretend that nothing can get in the way of love is false, maybe a lie, maybe a delusion, but false. So of course your wife wasn't reassured by it. Instead she better appreciates the truth.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> As for me, when I come home later than planned - I don't 'dread game' M2 but neither do I encourage this theme of explaining or apologizing. If she NICELY asks me why I'm late, I answer. If she is being hostile I tell her I stopped for a quick visit at the local Knocking shop (brothel). If she seems genuinely anxious I do that thing - with her - where I ask her if she's worried about me/us. And I filter out the rest of the universe and hold her wrist softly until I feel her pulse drop below 70.


When I first started living with my SO, he used to get annoyed with me because I would come home later than planned. And it wasn't because he wanted to control me, or make me feel bad about having fun time with friends, but because he just wanted to know in case he was trying to make plans for dinner, or was worried I'd been hit by a truck. At first I didn't really take his concerns too seriously. Whatever, I stayed out longer than I said. Big deal. Why the federal case?

But I'm pretty sure that I was just being inconsiderate, and now I try to call to let him know that I'm going to be late. (Although these days he will often mock me for the vagueness of my replies when he asks me when I'll be home.)


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

jld said:


> I don't think it will stay that way. I think he is here searching for answers, and those answers will help him.


Correct. That's exactly why I am here. 

I would have posted over the weekend but that would have increased the risk of being found out posting on here; that would make matters worse with her.

Lots of interesting discussion going on here which I'm thankful for. I'll try to respond to some of the specific posts rather than answer all now in this one.

She was...difficult...over the weekend. More coldness, distance, sarcastic tone of voice, and so on. Despite all of this I managed to survive without shouting, calling names, or becoming angry. 

At some point, she seemed open to truly discussing things. She asked me to talk to her and that she wanted to understand what had "triggered" me into calling her a "b***". I made it clear at the outset of that conversation that calling her names was a terrible thing to do and there was no excuse for my name calling. I then went on to say what I thought had triggered my anger (all the stuff I wrote at the start of this thread) only to be accused of making excuses! So... she wanted me to explain what triggered me and when I did, I'm making excuses! Then... she expressed her sadness and frustration that I am "always making her the bad one". This has become a constant point in arguments over the last year or so. If I try and bring up things she did/said that I didnt like, I am accused of "being dark", "being negative", "putting her in a corner". This just seems a clever mechanism to avoid taking responsibility. Although... I am starting to believe that I have a serious problem. Again... we are back to therapy. I know I need it. I tried calling the doctor today but they're not taking appointments due to summer holidays. I think I'll try going in personally during their "queue up and wait to be seen hour".


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Perhaps because he knows that whatever plate he chooses will instantly be the wrong one? She was spoiling for a fight.


Exactly. She was cruising for a fight. 

There was a time when I would make decisions such as this without asking. I walk on eggshells now and ask. But.... thinking about it... I shouldn't ask. I've fallen into a trap here. Next time, no asking.


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Asking someone to leave a space implies that you believe you OWN that space. As opposed to believing it is 'shared' space.
> 
> Letting someone kick you out of a space implies you agree that they OWN that space.


Good point. I think partly I was agreeing it was her space but mostly conceding that my name calling was totally wrong and accepting punishment for my wrong doing. Not that the punishment led to any apparent relaxation of her anger. I could have laid claim to the bed and refused but I felt that would put me into a potential aggressive/physical situation with her because I'm bigger. I didn't want to go down that route. So rather than get into a physical altercation, I ate humble pie and went to the couch.

We moved into the apartment together but the contract is actually in name even though I pay all the rent. Would it be better if it were in my name? Maybe, maybe not. Either way though, it doesn't stop her reminding me that it's her apartment.


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

breeze said:


> Yep, you made a big boo boo with that one. Would've been way better to just leave her to do it on her own. That said, you apologised nearly immediately afterwards, so stop apologising. Don't ever apologise for it again. Put it behind you. If she comes back to it time and again in the future, I would just say you apologised at the time, and it was solely to do your reaction to how you were being treated that morning, nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> As for the icy stuff, you can't fight icy with warmth and meekness, trust me. My default state for dealing with icy is icy. If a person doesn't get that stuff right back in their teeth, they have no incentive to cut that sh*t out. This happened to me recently. I was nice and gave fair warning, you keep treating me like that and I won't be able to help it, I will withdraw from you, and I did. If I hadn't, I think it would've gone on indefinitely and done a lot more damage before we sorted it out.


I like this. I really like what you say. I don't plan to become sarcastic when she's sarcastic, that will make things worse. However, perhaps it is better to withdraw than respond with warmth and meekness. Warmth and meekness have been my default response in these situations. Well... until I break down and respond with anger and "the b word".


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

modernknight said:


> I like this. I really like what you say. I don't plan to become sarcastic when she's sarcastic, that will make things worse. However, perhaps it is better to withdraw than respond with warmth and meekness. Warmth and meekness have been my default response in these situations. Well... until I break down and respond with anger and "the b word".


See, you need help. Her actions needs to stop and withdrawal keeps the dynamic going. All you'll do is continue to avoid the problem, build up resentment and then you'll have another blow up. Yes, you have 5 months worth of warmth, withdrawal and blow ups all over TAM. 

Good luck.


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## modernknight (Apr 24, 2015)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> He may not have the emotional strength to leave, even if he wanted to.
> 
> ...


I think it's more to do with emotional strength at the moment. There's no social or family pressure stopping me from going. Or financial. It's fair to say that I'm a little scared and a little tired. And though previously I have listed good/bad points.... the bad are outweighing the good so even I don't know why I'm staying. In some ways I'm hoping that I find some coping mechanism and can avoid becoming angry in retaliation to her anger. Perhaps then I feel everything will be great and okay. Having read around a fair bit I suspect that this won't help.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

always_alone said:


> I don't find this strange at all. I mean, clearly there are things you would leave her for. Why is it strange for her to doubt that your ove is unconditional?
> 
> Most, probably all, of us have conditions. To pretend that nothing can get in the way of love is false, maybe a lie, maybe a delusion, but false. So of course your wife wasn't reassured by it. Instead she better appreciates the truth.


it was a bit of sarcasm. i dont actually find it strange either.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

luvinhim said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > Mrs. Conan can, and has, fallen into poor behavior similar to OPs wife under stress. I am not a nice guy and while I will lay my life down for her, she will never disrespect my life or be allowed to shyt on our marriage.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Always/JLD

I don't collide with planned events or standard dinner hour. 

We are 'lightly scheduled' on the weekend. So this isn't about me making it hard for her to manage logistics. 

This is about M2 not liking me doing stuff without her. 

And overall I look at it as a mostly full glass. It's a gift to have A partner who loves doing things with you, and is an excellent companion across the full range of activities you like. 

M2 was going tile shopping (bathroom remodel) yesterday. I was on the phone, pantomimed - 10 minutes so she'd wait for me. We had fun picking the tile and grout. I do a LOT of optional stuff with M2 during which it's clear I'm having fun. The steady drumbeat of subtext is: I like you, love you, want to be together. 

Which is why I believe her fear of me leaving is not about me. 

And yes, in the past we've both mentioned divorce, me far less often. But things have been stable for quite some time now 




always_alone said:


> When I first started living with my SO, he used to get annoyed with me because I would come home later than planned. And it wasn't because he wanted to control me, or make me feel bad about having fun time with friends, but because he just wanted to know in case he was trying to make plans for dinner, or was worried I'd been hit by a truck. At first I didn't really take his concerns too seriously. Whatever, I stayed out longer than I said. Big deal. Why the federal case?
> 
> But I'm pretty sure that I was just being inconsiderate, and now I try to call to let him know that I'm going to be late. (Although these days he will often mock me for the vagueness of my replies when he asks me when I'll be home.)


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

modernknight said:


> I think it's more to do with emotional strength at the moment. There's no social or family pressure stopping me from going. Or financial. It's fair to say that I'm a little scared and a little tired. And though previously I have listed good/bad points.... the bad are outweighing the good so even I don't know why I'm staying. In some ways I'm hoping that I find some coping mechanism and can avoid becoming angry in retaliation to her anger. Perhaps then I feel everything will be great and okay. Having read around a fair bit I suspect that this won't help.


Here is the thing... your frustration level shoots up for a couple reasons. The first one is anxiety, which may or may not be rooted in your wife's behavior. The second is the sense that you are hopeless to stop the attacks. 

If you knew that you could stop the attack, instantly, any time you chose, then it probably wouldn't make your blood pressure rise. You would listen to it and know that the second it starts to annoy you, you could stop it. 


Basically, you need to find a way to shut the vitriol down. The requires you doing something. It requires actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> And yes, in the past we've both mentioned divorce, me far less often. But things have been stable for quite some time now


Your wife threatening divorce more times than you does not mean that you are somehow justified. JLD has threatened me many times with divorce, but I do not take it personally. On the other hand if I had ever threatened divorce, it would have destroyed her emotionally.

Women threaten divorce because they try to be heard. They want to send a wake up call. When a man says it, it has more impact.

You have great influence over her in ways you may not suspect. Because it is not bothering you does not mean she will feel the same way.

Like you need to try to put yourself in your wife shoes, the OP should do the same with his girl friend.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Absolutely agree that one doesn't justify the other. 

And that in my case it's a highly asymmetric situation for many reasons. Asymmetric in the sense that M2 threatening divorce, while unsettling because it means she's very upset, doesn't cause me to feel panic. 

I need to do a bit more work on this to make sure M2 fully believes that - I'm here for the duration. 

As for 'conditions' - they don't really apply in the sense that I'm not worried that M2 would actually do anything that warrants a divorce. 




Duguesclin said:


> Your wife threatening divorce more times than you does not mean that you are somehow justified. JLD has threatened me many times with divorce, but I do not take it personally. On the other hand if I had ever threatened divorce, it would have destroyed her emotionally.
> 
> Women threaten divorce because they try to be heard. They want to send a wake up call. When a man says it, it has more impact.
> 
> ...


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## luvinhim (Jun 25, 2014)

Duguesclin and JLD i have read all of you post and replies on this subject. While i appreciate that you both are trying to get the OP to understand his actions. everyone in a relationship are not like you two.

JLD you seem sweet and loving and Dugeusclin you seem to truly love and admire your wife and her tender and fragile personality. but trust and believe me that some women are just *****ES plain and simple. They are hateful, bossy and controlling and that is what the OP is with. She likes to let him know he fcked up by calling her a name, but she has never admitted to provoking him.

she constantly lets him know this is her apartment and he needs to leave. i bet if you ask him he has no say in the matter of the apartment, or how often her family is visiting. she is the BOSS

so your advise is great, but she does not seem to be the type of woman who needs a hug. she needs a quick swift kick in the butt.


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## karazy (Aug 31, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I'm confused. One of your primary themes on TAM is that as adults we don't get to 'control' each other. I agree with that. And am applying it here.
> 
> ...


I'm a little late but I have to agree with this. Before my husband and I started sleeping separately, if I was mad at him, I would sleep in a different room and vice versa for him.

I've never kicked him out of the bedroom and make him go sleep on the couch. It just feels so wrong.

My parents are the same way. My mom would go to another room when she was mad at my dad but she's never kicked him out.

It is wrong to kick your husband out of the room just because 1) you're a woman and 2) you're mad. Otherwise, it is childish punishment.


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