# wife vs girlfriend



## Meriter

Terrible title, I know, but I got you here!
I had previous posts outlining my "journey", but I'm sure only a select few are familiar with them, so I'll start at the beginning.

It was a dark and stormy night. Born in a hospital in... 
okay okay too far back.

I DO have to go back to grade school though. My first real love was N who was a year younger than me. I was in 7th grade. Seems stupid even saying it. SEVENTH grade.
We ended up going to different High schools and lost touch. I kept a box of her letters and re-read them every few years - never forgetting her. 

I ended up marrying and having kids... Unbeknownst to me, she was doing the same thing. 

As typical nowadays, we re-connected on facebook. My wife knew I was talking to her, and even knew about the letters I had kept. It started out fb emails, then regular emails, then phone calls... then eventually we wanted to see each other again after 17 years apart.

When I saw her again in person, I knew I was in trouble. Then again, I figured there was no way she'd feel the same and I'd have to get over it - but she did feel the same.

We hugged goodbye and one of us kissed the other and it was amazing. ..and terrible. 

One day I accidentally left up part of one of our fb chats and my wife wanted an explanation. I admitted that I had feelings for her and she wanted me to promise I would never speak to her again. I refused. 

I explained that, although I was wrong in letting it get that far, that there were reasons why I sought someone out and that we had issues to work on. Of course I know that we couldn't address our issues while I continued to talk to N, but I was being selfish.

My wife emailed N and told her to bug off (not in those words). N called me and read me the email and we all felt bad, but did that stop us?.....

My wife seemed to show a change, but it only lasted a few weeks. 

I saw N again a few months later, but eventually her hubby caught on and we were forced to break it off. We never slept together or anything like that, just kissed. 

People I confided in assured me it was just the thrill of the adventure and the feelings would fade. I was hoping they were right, but 5 more months passed (with no contact at all) and I felt the same. 

I was flying somewhere alone and feeling pretty low about missing her (note that I didnt feel too low about sneaking around on my wife). When I landed, I checked my email and saw one from her. 

After not talking for over 5 months it was a real surprise and couldnt have been better timing.

We pretty much re-started from scratch. Emails, then phone calls, then another meeting. We met again in public (have never been alone together in our lives), and there was alot of talking, some hugging, and a kiss or two, but nothing else. 

That fact (no sex) doesn't bother me at all, by the way. I started to believe the people who thought she was just an unfulfilled sexual adventure were wrong. I find her incredibly attractive of course, but I don't sit and wish I could f--- her. I sit and wish I could hear her voice again, or hold her again, or look into her perfect eyes again...

I know, I know...

So that pretty much brings us to present day. 

As for the troubles between my wife and I... She is very unsupportive and unappreciative of me. I am an artist and sell work. I get compliments from everyone, but my wife. In fact, my wife told me my artwork is "a waste of time". 
She told her friends this about me: "although he is unattractive, he treats me good". ..which I do, by the way (apart from the N situation).

Once I heard about the unattractive comment, nothing was the same with us. I felt the marriage was over but stayed for the kids.

She thinks everything is fine again (as usual).
She assumes N no longer contacts me. She assumes I'm over the "unattractive" thing... 
she said to me the other day that I will never leave her because I'd never find anyone as good as her.

I told her today flat out that I am only staying because of the kids and because I fear how she will turn the kids against me if I leave. She is so full of herself that she assumed I was joking and laughed it off.

She puts me down all the time. If I find something I like doing, she forbids I do it or guilts me into stopping. 
I joined a men's soccer team and she didnt like the idea of me making friends, so she told me i wasn't any good at it and that I should stay home.

Besides all of that, we have our moments. I don't claim to be perfect, but when we had our N discussion and talked about what needed to be changed, she insisted that she had NO issues for me to work on. She thought everything was great up till then.

-Probably because to her, it WAS great. I stayed home, she had me under her thumb, and I didn't put up a fight.

There is a million discussions on the whole nice guy theory saying I am too nice and thus she doesnt respect me, but I've figured out that she is most comfortable in this position. If I show any independance, she flips out and tries to reel me back in.

So..after all of that, my question is this: what the F---- do I do now??
N says that if caught talking to me again, she'll be single. I feel bad breaking up her marriage (potentially), but... I guess part of the reason I feel bad is because she has money now, once she is with me, we'll be poor. ..But of course my main concern is her child followed by her happiness.

Can you believe that I asked her once where she liked to be kissed and she almost cried because her hubby had NEVER asked her that in all their years together??

Then the other day on the phone N asked me about how my artwork is coming and I couldn't believe how good it felt. .. and I wondered why she is concerned about it, but my wife would prefer I stop with the artwork altogether.

ugh.

I know I haven't mentioned the kids much, but they are really on my mind. I care for the kids and am very close with them. I keep thinking that maybe it will be easier in 10 years? Is it ridiculous to commit to an unhappy marriage for another 10 years for the kids' sake?

Hey, thanks for reading all of that. I appreciate it.


----------



## picket fences

My husband was doing the same thing as you. It didn't go on for NEARLY as long, and it was a co-worker and not a childhood sweetheart, but the rest of the story is very similar. And then I BLEW IT WIDE OPEN, and he had to face reality - not the fantasy he had been living - and now states, with genuine honesty, that he "had to convince himself that I was a terrible wife and would never change, because it was the ONLY WAY to justify his feelings for and actions with the other woman" - he could NOT reconcile his idea of himself as a good person with his actions of cheating on me, unless he could rationalize that I was a BAD person and therefore it all came out even. 

Now that the affair is over - and yes, an affair it is, what you're doing! - he states it literally feels like blinders have fallen away from his eyes, and he SEES me again for who I am. 

We have big problems in our marriage and things are not coming up roses, but we both think we'll actually make it. 

I'm telling you this because your entire message is so clearly and obviously written from within the same fog my own husband inhabited - you may not be able to see it because you're IN it - and I'm getting choked up, thinking how your wife (who, being human, is both imperfect but probably a GOOD PERSON) is going to end up having the same unbearable, unliveable, indescribably awful pain that I am just starting to get over.

So, Meriter, my advice is - Wake Up!


----------



## Meriter

Thanks for the reply, picket fences. I know I made that post way too long and I appreciate that you took the time to read it.

I understand what you're saying, BUT... the issues I have had with my wife have been ongoing for years now. She's told me in the past that she's just not a supportive person and she won't change that. So.. there is not much hope for change.

I'm not imagining the things she said. I didn't imagine her telling her friends I am unattractive. I didn't imagine her telling me flat out that my talents are a big waste of time (she still will try to rationalize that feeling today, so it wasn't a slip of the tongue or misunderstanding).

I'm certainly not suggesting that a relationship with another woman is the answer to any of these issues, but they were existing issues. I suppose I could make the excuse that I was looking for love and acceptance and support so I was drawn in to N. ...Maybe that's true. Either way, I know I am wrong. I know I should repair my marriage, but how when your wife says "that's who i am - deal with it"?

The interesting part is that my wife has run me down so much that I think i am nothing myself. My self esteem must be nearly non-existant now. She says all my exes were ugly and that i'd never find anyone as good as her. ..which i now obviously disagree with.

Again, I appreciate the reply, but I'm quite sure I am not imagining her being a bad person. I dont even think she is a BAD person necessarily - just that we don't match like we thought we did.


----------



## picket fences

Sigh....not sure you're really ready to hear perspectives that don't agree with what you've already decided...very, very common for people in your situation....

Just wanted to let you know, that my husband also would freely say to anyone - and he'd be telling the truth when he said it - that our marriage had big problems for many years, too. And since we're coming up on our 11th anniversary, there were a lot of years there for things to be pretty bad. There was also good, but, let's be honest, lots of bad. And a lot of the bad was caused by things I did. I certainly didn't say he was unattractive or run him down to people the way you're describing, but he would say I ran him down to HIM, and that I didn't support or encourage him, and he would be partially right. Nothing is ever completely one side or the other...

The turning point is when he realized:

1) that he had a CHOICE about what to do with this bad situation; he was not being led along like a dog on a leash; even when things were really bad in his experience, he could not claim to be a victim, because there were always choices he could have made differently to change his situation;

and 2) his choices - whether to leave me and continue "chasing rainbows" (his words), or whether to leave me and the OW and be on his own but at least apart from me, or whether to stay with me and try to change thigns - ALL of these choices would have consequences. There is no free pass. There is no pain-free option. Our situation had gone too far for that. So has yours.

He chose staying. One of my big struggles is trying to figure out why - because the motivation makes a difference to me. But the crisis of the whole situation certainly brought home to me what I needed to do differently, and what changes I needed to make, just to be a better PERSON not to mention a better partner! 

Faced with the same crisis, I'm willing to bet any amount of money that your wife will do one of two things: she will open her eyes and change with you, or...she won't. But at least she will know that the choice, in that situation, is HERS, and she is a knowing and willing participant in the dissolution of her own marriage. Right now, she is being played like a puppet on a string. Major, Major, MAJOR things are happening in her own marriage - her own life! - and she can't even participate in deciding how they'll go because she's not being informed. That's simply not right. No amount of justification of how bad a person she is, or how poor a match you two are, can justify you taking away from her the right to make informed decisions about her own life.

By the way....my husband also used the "we're just not a good match for each other..." line - when he had what he thought was a BETTER match in his sights - and the better match certainly lost it's lustre quickly when the fog lifted......


----------



## picket fences

Oh and one more thing....You are responsible for the damage you to to your relationship, and I guess I must grudgingly admit that you have the right to completely F*** it up if that's your thing...but weak admissions of "feeling bad" about putting the Other Woman's marriage at risk are just lame. They just don't even START to do justice to the amount of harm and damage your actions are causing. Man up and take ownership of what you're really doing, if that's what you're going to decide to do....


----------



## Meriter

You're right of course. I'm the bad guy here, so I'm wrong by default. Having said that, I don't agree with the thought that my wife had no idea what is happening in her marriage or that she had no opportunity to change. We've had this discussion before..twice.
Her first response was that she would change - and she did for about 2 weeks. Then when we talked again about it, she just came out and said that she wasnt ever going to be that person, so I should just learn to deal with it. 
I don't think asking for some support, a compliment now and then, some appreciation, or asking her not to put me down to others is asking too much. 
I agree that what I am doing is wrong though, so, partially thanks to your reply, I'm going to talk to her again, for a third time.

I guess this is the part where I tell her things need to change or i'll leave. 
The trouble is, change at this point is going to be REAL hard for me to buy into. If she starts telling me I'm attractive (for example), i'll know better and see it as fake. ...so maybe she cant win.


----------



## picket fences

It seems like this is a two-person thread here - I certainly don't mean to monopolize this and anyone else could post too ....

So, not to be argumentative or "split hairs", but you seem to have missed my point about your wife not having vital information about her own marriage. You said: 

"I don't agree with the thought that my wife had no idea what is happening in her marriage or that she had no opportunity to change. We've had this discussion before..twice.
Her first response was that she would change - and she did for about 2 weeks. Then when we talked again about it, she just came out and said that she wasnt ever going to be that person, so I should just learn to deal with it."

So, that's you saying that you have told your wife previously that you are unhappy in your marriage and have identified what you need to be different, and you did not get a great response. Fair enough. BUT, you also said:

"She thinks everything is fine again (as usual).
She assumes N no longer contacts me. "

And clearly, this is false. N contacts you, you are having an emotional affair, this is HAPPENING, it is of fundamental importance to your wife because it is impacting HER marriage...and she does not know. That means she does NOT have the basic information she needs in order to make very important decisions for herself. You may not like the decisions she would come to if she did have this knowledge; but that does not negate her right to make those decisiosn FOR HERSELF. It just may be that if she knew you were having an affair, she would turf you out on your ass and end this mess. And I did not decide to do that with my husband, and I don't think it is the best thing to do most of the time, but it is her RIGHT to make that decision, and she is being deprived of it.

That is why she is a puppet on a string...you are controlling her, in a way, by only providing her with the information that you want her to have, so that you are in control of the situation. You see it as only YOUR decision to make regarding whether you stay or go; you aren't acknowledging that she has just as much to say about that as you do.

And in the meantime, if your family is at all similar to mine, I'd just like to remind you that your children are suffering....mine were (are?), and my H and I weren't even arguing. The constant tension, daddy sleeping on the couch, all that stuff - kids, no matter how young, pick up on it. You aren't doing them any favours by staying with your wife - under these circumstances - for their sake.

Good luck.


----------



## picket fences

I missed something....what is your intention by saying : "I guess this is the part where I tell her things need to change or i'll leave. 
The trouble is, change at this point is going to be REAL hard for me to buy into. If she starts telling me I'm attractive (for example), i'll know better and see it as fake. ...so maybe she cant win."

Are you just going to talk to her about her behaviour, and what you want to see her change? Or are you going to end your connection - COMPLETELY - to the other woman and come clean about that, too? Because if you are choosing Option "A", don't bother. Your marriage doesn't have an ice cube's chance in hell if you are not definitively terminating your affair and owning up to it. Our counsellor said it well to my H and I (before I discovered proof of the affair, which validated everything she said) - she told us that I could be doing EVERYTHING right, I could be willing and able to meet every need that my H felt was lacking, I could be his dream girl, quite frankly - and he simply WOULD NOT SEE IT if his emotional attention was focused on someone else. It would be like my H at the circus, watching the sideshow and thinking it was the best thing ever, and missing the whole center-ring action right behind him. That will be you if you don't end the affair and come clean.

If you have no intentions of doing so, then don't put your poor hopeless wife through the sham of "telling her things need to change or you'll leave". The fact is, you're out the door already. Honesty frees.


----------



## Meriter

picket fences said:


> BUT, you also said:
> 
> "She thinks everything is fine again (as usual).
> She assumes N no longer contacts me. "
> 
> 
> Good luck.


what I meant by that, and I can see how it would be misunderstood, is that she refuses to accept that anything is wrong. I have told her I'm unhappy (we had that discussion twice already) and she ASSUMES the problem goes away by itself without her ever actually changing.
OR... more likely, she doesnt want to put the effort into changing and ASSUMES i would never be strong enough to leave her.
That fits better with her recent comments of: "you will never find anyone as good as me".


----------



## DennisNLA

Meriter said:


> You're right of course. I'm the bad guy here, so I'm wrong by default. Having said that, I don't agree with the thought that my wife had no idea what is happening in her marriage or that she had no opportunity to change. We've had this discussion before..twice.
> Her first response was that she would change - and she did for about 2 weeks. Then when we talked again about it, she just came out and said that she wasnt ever going to be that person, so I should just learn to deal with it.
> I don't think asking for some support, a compliment now and then, some appreciation, or asking her not to put me down to others is asking too much.
> I agree that what I am doing is wrong though, so, partially thanks to your reply, I'm going to talk to her again, for a third time.
> 
> I guess this is the part where I tell her things need to change or i'll leave.
> The trouble is, change at this point is going to be REAL hard for me to buy into. If she starts telling me I'm attractive (for example), i'll know better and see it as fake. ...so maybe she cant win.


M,

Why are you still married to her?

If its for the kids, then you are making a tragic mistake right now. The kids will piece together your affair. Your relationship will be harmed permanently with them. Not to mention the bad lessons you teach to them about lying and cheating. You will always have a relationship with your children, you really need to place their welfare and needs above your needs today. Break it off with the OW. Then evaluate if you are better off staying or leaving the marriage, and if then, date someone who is not currently in a commited relationship. 

I am not outraged that you may need to divorce your wife, I am outraged at the number of lives you are f****ing up right now so that you can get emotionally or physically off.

D


----------



## InAPickle

Meriter said:


> N says that if caught talking to me again, she'll be single. I feel bad breaking up her marriage (potentially), but... I guess part of the reason I feel bad is because she has money now, once she is with me, we'll be poor. ..But of course my main concern is her child followed by her happiness.
> 
> Can you believe that I asked her once where she liked to be kissed and she almost cried because her hubby had NEVER asked her that in all their years together??[/B]


It's too bad you aren't showing the same kind of compassion for your wife and kids. I hope you wake up soon.


----------



## Meriter

InAPickle said:


> It's too bad you aren't showing the same kind of compassion for your wife and kids. I hope you wake up soon.


That's BS. I made a point in saying i am very close with my kids and don't want to harm them.
I am the stay at home dad, so I take care of the kids every day. ...and when my wife gets home and 
is too tired to even aknowledge them, I am there to play with them again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Meriter

InAPickle said:


> It's too bad you aren't showing the same kind of compassion for your wife and kids. I hope you wake up soon.


I guess I'd have to say it is because of the kids. 
I always wonder if it will be easier on them when they are a bit older.
They are 5 and 1.
I guess maybe I'm doing no one good by staying, but I worry about how
often I would see them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## withinbrandy

Honestly...its hard to think when you feel feelings for someone else. Having an emotional rush...its like drugs. You are feeling this high that feels great, but your family is suffering. You know I can tell you, you need to get rid of the childhood sweetheart and focus on your marriage, but you are gonna do what you want to do. I wouldnt stay in a marriage just because of the kids. Its a family and family is love. maybe seperate...get a job and get out on your own. You have rights...she cant take the kids away from you. The OW really doesnt want you...she just like the emotional rush too. If she did she wouldnt worry about her own marriage. She wouldnt be telling you if she gets caught she will be single. She can say oh its because of the money, but she loves her husband.


----------



## InAPickle

Meriter said:


> That's BS. I made a point in saying i am very close with my kids and don't want to harm them.
> I am the stay at home dad, so I take care of the kids every day. ...and when my wife gets home and
> is too tired to even aknowledge them, I am there to play with them again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True compassion for them would keep you from doing what you're currently doing. You're playing Russian Roulette with their chance at growing up with an intact family. How can you not see that?


----------



## sparkle4

I think that is where the grass is greener saying comes from. Things may seem like they would be great with this other women, however they wont, they might even be worse. Every relationship is going to have problems. If not the ones you talk about with your wife it will be someting different. Marriage takes work and people need to be willing to change. I say your wive should not treat you that way and maybe she needs a bigger push to change, I dont think cheating is the answer. Take the high road.


----------



## picket fences

Wow, other people finally weigh in, and everyone's saying exactly what I'm thinking - but I don't think Meriter can hear us....maybe if we all yell together, "Wake up!"..... 

Meriter, you aren't staying for your kids. You're staying for YOU, because YOU would feel terribly if you did not get to see them as often as YOU want to. It's as clear as day.

You are in all likelihood an excellent father, in terms of direct interaction with your kids. It takes a lot to be a stay-at-home dad. 

But do you really think, that when your kids are grown, they're ever going to say, 
"GEE, boy am I ever GLAD that my dad led my mom on and cheated on her for all those years! It didn't harm her in the least, and it made my growing up years excellent, with a GREAT model of a healthy marriage for me to aspire to, and parents who I can truly RESPECT. What a win-win! Yippee!"

Because I think, if you love your children, that you DO want them to be able to respect you, that you DO want to show them a model of a healthy marriage, and you DO want them to see how you have been able to care for others and not intentionally hurt people. Right?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but maybe it takes a little brutal reality to see it that way. My own kids are 3 and 5, not far off from yours. I can tell you with COMPLETE certainty that they know on an emotional, intuitive level, that things have not been right with mommy and daddy for a while now. It shows in their behaviour, their emotional reactions to things, everything. And my H, despite having gone through his stage of being a lying, cheating bastard, is an EXCELLENT father, and always will be. But his infidelity and all the fallout it created has negatively impacted our kids, and that is fact. Undeniable fact. Took him a while to be able to acknowledge it because it broke his heart, but he's smart enough to see when something is indisputable.

So, if you are really ready to make a change for the sake of your kids, you only have difficult choices ahead of you. And in your responses to everyone, it seems to me like you don't want to have to do anything difficult. You want to blame your circumstances on everyone else and wait for a solution to magically apper. Ain't gonna happen, buddy. 

Disconnect from the OW completely and permanently. Now.
Tell your wife everything.
Be honest about the hurt she has caused you, and what you've needed from her that you haven't received - because that is certainly a big part of this story. But be careful about when you tell her - there is a time and a place for everything. Let her get mad and grieve for a while, first.
Really look at your wife, with unclouded eyes, and take time to see if the relationship that you need is possible with this woman.
If so - work your ASS off to make it happen.
If not - separate, honourable and respectably, recognizing that you are not the only person here that counts.

And THEN - only then - are you free to pursue other women. And - someone else made this point - only other UNATTACHED women.
Period.


----------



## Meriter

InAPickle said:


> True compassion for them would keep you from doing what you're currently doing. You're playing Russian Roulette with their chance at growing up with an intact family. How can you not see that?


LOL. I think my wife has been playing "russian roulette" with their chance of growing up in an in tact family by telling her friends I was unattractive, by putting me down nearly every day, and by refusing to change.
As others have said, an in tact family isn't always the best thing. My mom and dad never divorced but should have. they stayed together and were at each other's throats and the kids were forced to take sides. Now we're all grown up and all hate each other for it.

I guess my reasons for staying are a bit selfish in that I don't want to not see them every day like I am now. Going from 24 hours per day to just weekends would be hard.


----------



## Meriter

I hear what you're saying, but those are real easy words to say: just never talk to her again. 
How exactly do I do that?
in one hand i have a wife who seems to live to run me down and control and and on the other i have someone who supports me, loves me, compliments me, LISTENS to me, and seems to want the best for me.
You have to understand that it is diffcult to walk away from.
I know that being a drug (as within brandi put it), she has an advantage in all those departments over my wife, but that's why I tried to give it time and not rush into assuming she would be any different. 
I figured that after 5 months or so without speaking that I'd be better able to move on, but I haven't been able to.

It seems to me that if I have a serious discussion with my wife again and she again refuses to change then I'll have my answer, won't i?
Why should she need to be threatened by another woman in order to want to make me happy?
do i really even WANT the changes that come because she is FORCED to make them????
I'm starting to think I won't.

We had an argument last night about me going outside with the neighbors (I posted it in the general discussions). I can't even sit outside our house talking to the neighbors now! She has to control every aspect of what I do and cannot allow me to even have a friend. 
Even though she used to be a stay at home parent (and b-tched about it every day), she still cannot have any appreciation for what I do during the day. 
Even with the kids outside playing with/around me, I still cannot go outside without a huge guilt trip followed by a huge fight.

I'm really tired of it. And you say this is all because of the OW??
I understand how that might be typical, but this isn't normal behavior and I've put up with it WAYYYYYYYYYY too long. 
Even the neighbors now are saying she doesnt realize what she has in me and how she doesn't appreciate me.

I guess that's another thread, but is it okay for her to come home from work and say "i worked 8 hours, so now i'm going to veg out on the couch and you continue running the house"??


----------



## Meriter

withinbrandy said:


> Honestly...its hard to think when you feel feelings for someone else. Having an emotional rush...its like drugs. You are feeling this high that feels great, but your family is suffering. You know I can tell you, you need to get rid of the childhood sweetheart and focus on your marriage, but you are gonna do what you want to do. I wouldnt stay in a marriage just because of the kids. Its a family and family is love. maybe seperate...get a job and get out on your own. You have rights...she cant take the kids away from you. The OW really doesnt want you...she just like the emotional rush too. If she did she wouldnt worry about her own marriage. She wouldnt be telling you if she gets caught she will be single. She can say oh its because of the money, but she loves her husband.


Thanks for the post, withinbrandy.
Picket fences has been posting alot that really makes sense, but what you said hit home a little better. You're right I think she does love her hubby, but to be honest, I think it is more of a familiar thing or a comfot thing. The guy is huge now and they have both admitted that they aren't really physical or romantic or lovey dovey at all (yes, i've spoke to him on the phone a few times). It was a college friendship that led to a marriage which probably never should have happened I guess.
But who am i to say.. the point is she is still with him and that is troubling to me.
When I was caught I told my wife i wouldnt stop talking to her and was ready to end my marriage, but my wife wasnt so ready i guess and I ended up backing down because when she was caught she agreed to stop talking to me.
Hmmmm....

I tell myself that she is just afraid of the change. When I came up in their discussions he pulled the "dont do what your parents did" guilt trip because her parents divorced when she was young.


----------



## InAPickle

Meriter said:


> LOL. I think my wife has been playing "russian roulette" with their chance of growing up in an in tact family by telling her friends I was unattractive, by putting me down nearly every day, and by refusing to change.
> As others have said, an in tact family isn't always the best thing. My mom and dad never divorced but should have. they stayed together and were at each other's throats and the kids were forced to take sides. Now we're all grown up and all hate each other for it.


You blame your wife. I get that. It doesn't make what you are doing any less wrong, doesn't justify it AT ALL, and doesn't make her look like the bad guy here. Is your staying in any way related to the fact that your wife works while you stay home? Is that just too sweet of a deal to give up? (I'm asking honestly, not being sarcastic here) Will you have a problem supporting you and the kids when the marriage explodes? (okay, a little sarcasm there, I'll admit - but only the "explodes" part) 

I totally agree with you on one point you make here - that parents staying together isn't always the best situation the for the kids. HOWEVER, your chances of fixing your marriage are exponentially better without the immense damage an affair causes than they are with the aftermath that is going to eventually come. Not to mention the fact that your chances of getting along after a divorce, should that be the outcome, are much better without the inevitable fallout of what you are currently doing. 

Do you want to chance changing your kids' opinion of you? It's bound to happen because they are bound to find out. I hope they don't for their sake especially, but also for yours, but the reality is that the kids usually do.


----------



## InAPickle

picket fences said:


> Wow, other people finally weigh in, and everyone's saying exactly what I'm thinking - but I don't think Meriter can hear us....maybe if we all yell together, "Wake up!".....
> 
> Meriter, you aren't staying for your kids. You're staying for YOU, because YOU would feel terribly if you did not get to see them as often as YOU want to. It's as clear as day.
> 
> So, if you are really ready to make a change for the sake of your kids, you only have difficult choices ahead of you. And in your responses to everyone, it seems to me like you don't want to have to do anything difficult. You want to blame your circumstances on everyone else and wait for a solution to magically apper. Ain't gonna happen, buddy.
> 
> Disconnect from the OW completely and permanently. Now.
> Tell your wife everything.
> Be honest about the hurt she has caused you, and what you've needed from her that you haven't received - because that is certainly a big part of this story. But be careful about when you tell her - there is a time and a place for everything. Let her get mad and grieve for a while, first.
> Really look at your wife, with unclouded eyes, and take time to see if the relationship that you need is possible with this woman.
> If so - work your ASS off to make it happen.
> If not - separate, honourable and respectably, recognizing that you are not the only person here that counts.
> 
> And THEN - only then - are you free to pursue other women. And - someone else made this point - only other UNATTACHED women.
> Period.


Great post, Picket Fences! You seem to be reading my mind. 

I think that what many of us are saying can be summed up by one of my favorite phrases: "Either sh*$ or get off the pot!"

Meriter, if your marriage sucks that badly, get out of it. Right now, this is just working for you too well. Tons of time with your kids while she works and you feel justified in having an affair. You're pretty much have your cake and are eating it, too. 

What do you plan on doing when your "relationship" with N goes down the toilet? (and it will) Move on to another one while still in your marriage?


----------



## picket fences

Yes, it's me again....

Meriter, you said this: 

"It seems to me that if I have a serious discussion with my wife again and she again refuses to change then I'll have my answer, won't i?
Why should she need to be threatened by another woman in order to want to make me happy?
do i really even WANT the changes that come because she is FORCED to make them????
I'm starting to think I won't."

That quote tells me that you still have no idea WHY it's important to tell your wife about the OW. It has NOTHING to do with anything YOU may want, or forcing your wife to do anything...

It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that your wife, regardless of how awful she may treat you and how unhappy you are with her, is a PERSON. Yup. Does that surprise you? Are you shocked? And - hold on to your seat here, this might be the real kicker - she has RIGHTS. GASP! Yes, she does! There is more than just you in your relationship. By DEFINITION. Your behaviour is completely unacceptable, in a moral/ethical sense, because you are depriving another individual human being of the vital information they need to make their OWN decisions.

I'm not talking about telling your wife about the OW so that she will feel "threatened" and come back to you. That would be a crappy reason to stay married. And, it is sounding very likely that maybe you just shouldn't stay married to her in any event - maybe because of her attitude and behaviour, which sound crummy, and maybe because of your unwavering belief that she is an awful person who can/will never change (also crummy, in my opinion, but I guess that's none of my business). 

In any event, you have choices to make if you want those children of yours to ever be able to look you in the eye and see the man you want them to see. And NONE of those choices include you maintaining the status quo. I agree with the poster (I forget who, sorry), who questioned whether you're staying for the sweet deal - you are financially supported by your wife, you get to be a stay at home dad enjoying all the best (and worst, I know  parts of your kid's lives, and you get to justify your lying, cheating, behaviour because your wife is just so darn awful. Pretty convenient for you. 

Completely unjust to her....and your kids....and anyone else in your life who currently has a good opinion of you. Keep this up, and there won't be many of them....

And by the way, the thing with N won't work out. My husband told me that his opinion of the OW began to sour a little, even before I discovered the affair, because it "left a bad taste in his mouth" that she planned to stay with her husband no matter what. While I practically gagged at the irony hearing him say that, at least he had the sense to see the truth. You are pretty good at not only justifying your own behaviour, but N's as well, and you are in for a rude awakening some day.

Please excuse any vitriol that makes it into these posts, by the way - I am, in a small way, reliving and working through some of my own thoughts/ feelings about my cheating H here, I've realized - isn't that the point of these dicussion boards? The blind leading the blind.... 


"


----------



## InAPickle

Meriter, keep in mind that if there were ever to be an opportunity for you and N to be together once you are out of your marriages, the circumstances under which this "relationship" began will lead to mistrust between the two of you. You'll already be behind the 8 ball before you even begin - not to mention the fact that both of you will have to go through divorces and all of the crap that divorce entails - and that's only IF she decides to leave her hubby, which may not happen. I'm already thinking that's not something she plans to do.

Like good ole Dr. Phil says: if they'll do it with ya, they'll do it to ya!!


----------



## sisters359

Being unhappy in marriage and deciding to end it is one thing. Running to another person is another, and it is completely different. 

Imagine this: you cut off all contact, now and forever with N, because she IS NOT and NEVER HAS BEEN the real issue. The REAL issue is, you have very poor communication in your marriage and a very poor relationship with your wife. You were unhappy--but you LET this happen to you. Why? Why have you let your wife treat you so poorly? And what the heck does that have to do with N? (Answer: nothing.) So, You need to solve it, for yourself, without involving anyone else. That means, work on yourself (and on your marriage--if you think you can). The reality is, you are to blame for this situation by allowing your wife to disrespect you, for tolerating a poor relationship. You can alter that in a variety of ways, but going from one woman to the next is NOT one of those ways. 

It's hard to realize, but N is just a distraction from the very real problems you need to face. Can you imagine yourself HAPPILY single for ever after? If not, why not? That is what you want to strive for--being unafraid of being single, being happily alone (with your kids but no partner). Right now you are trying to justify your relationship with N but it is indefensible, and you know it. Take N out of the picture and then decide about your marriage and your own future. Only then will you be doing the right thing by your kids. Anything else, you are just kidding yourself--you are cheating and acting like a cheater. Your kids deserve better. You deserve better from yourself. Good luck.


----------



## Meriter

InAPickle said:


> Right now, this is just working for you too well. Tons of time with your kids while she works and you feel justified in having an affair. You're pretty much have your cake and are eating it, too.



Okay, there are way too many assumptions going on. I stay home because i'm a lazy sod who refuses to work....etc

actually, my wife was the stay at home parent (as i may have mentioned) and she complained every single day of being 
bored and wanting to work, so we switched roles. I quit my job and stayed home so she could go back to work.

and we don't both work because SHE refused to have our little one in daycare. 

We are both also full time college students though I graduate in a week. I not only do all of my school work while home with the kids, but often times do hers as well for her. 

I am realizing more and more how much she takes advantage of me and doesn't appreciate anything I do.


----------



## Meriter

InAPickle said:


> Meriter, keep in mind that if there were ever to be an opportunity for you and N to be together once you are out of your marriages, the circumstances under which this "relationship" began will lead to mistrust between the two of you. You'll already be behind the 8 ball before you even begin - not to mention the fact that both of you will have to go through divorces and all of the crap that divorce entails - and that's only IF she decides to leave her hubby, which may not happen. I'm already thinking that's not something she plans to do.
> 
> Like good ole Dr. Phil says: if they'll do it with ya, they'll do it to ya!!


I'm sorry, but i've NEVER believed that 'once a cheater - always a cheater' nonsense. It's just not true. Saying that is saying that every person who has ever cheated was then doomed to never be faithful again and both you and I know that's not the case.
no one in the history of the world has ever cheated just once?

anyway,,, that is beside the point. I'm not thinking that far ahead.


----------



## Meriter

sisters359 said:


> Can you imagine yourself HAPPILY single for ever after? If not, why not? That is what you want to strive for--being unafraid of being single


no, I can't imagine that. I can't even really imagine anyone else liking me. I see N as a freak of nature I guess. 
It's funny because I was outside with the neighbors last night and two of them both said that when we moved in their husbands were nervous about them possibly liking me.
...and that was the strangest thing I ever heard. I couldn't even believe it. that's how run down my self-image is i guess.


----------



## InAPickle

Meriter said:


> Okay, there are way too many assumptions going on. I stay home because i'm a lazy sod who refuses to work....etcactually, my wife was the stay at home parent (as i may have mentioned) and she complained every single day of being
> bored and wanting to work, so we switched roles. I quit my job and stayed home so she could go back to work.
> 
> and we don't both work because SHE refused to have our little one in daycare.
> 
> We are both also full time college students though I graduate in a week. I not only do all of my school work while home with the kids, but often times do hers as well for her.
> 
> I am realizing more and more how much she takes advantage of me and doesn't appreciate anything I do.


That's not what I was saying - I don't assume you are lazy or won't work. My point is basically that there is so much of your day-to-day life that would likely have to change if the two of you split - less time with the kids, working outside the home, etc.


----------



## Meriter

InAPickle said:


> That's not what I was saying - I don't assume you are lazy or won't work. My point is basically that there is so much of your day-to-day life that would likely have to change if the two of you split - less time with the kids, working outside the home, etc.


I've actually been expecting to return to work soon anyway. I graduate in a week and little one is old enough for daycare now. Job search began a while ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sisters359

Even though you think that N is somehow the one, the reality is, she is just the first person you've let yourself connect to in a long time, and that makes her seem SO special. But she isn't: she's an equally messed-up person in an unsatisfying marriage, taking the easy/cowardly way out. Instead of standing up for yourselves and walking out b/c you are unhappy, you cower in a poor marriage b/c you are too afraid to be alone--this is why most affairs start, b/c people are just too damn cowardly to leave on their own. I speak from experience--I though about leaving my h for years but until I started talking to an "old friend," I didn't do anything about it. I terminated the budding EA so that I could make decisions clearly and I KNOW what a huge difference that made in the way I approached my divorce and I thank God, again and again, that I did. I was able to make all of my decisions with reference to what was best for my KIDS, without trying to plan a future with someone I truly barely knew. Once I quit toying with the idea of "how to make a new relationship work" (and the simple logistics! Living where? How could I have enough time with *him* and still see my kids, blah, blah, blah), I could see how LITTLE their welfare was really weighing in my decision making. It was all about me. Once I stopped, and accepted that all I really NEEDED at this time was to end the marriage---OMG. I quit trying to imagine or plan a life around this other person. I planned what was best for my kids--including 50/50 custody with their dad, and living arrangements that supported the kids best (we had one apartment and the ex and I took turns in the house w/ the kids for a while, just let go of the apt. now, 9 months later, although ex moved in with a new woman a few weeks after our court date).

There is simply NO WAY you can pursue a relationship with N and make the best decisions for yourself and your kids. You have a very bruised ego and you need to take care of it on your own. Turning to another to make you feel good about yourself is always a losing proposition. 

Just b/c you have cut off contact with N does not mean that you have done the things that will help you get over this fantasy. You need to start feeling good about yourself instead of remembering how she made you feel, for example. Start finding sources of pride that have nothing to do with any woman's opinion of you. Geez, even the fact that you are so pleased at the 2 neighbors comments is a little sad--you should KNOW you are a prize and not feel puffed up b/c someone else says it (and feeling confident does not mean feeling arrogant or vain!!)

No matter what you think right now, N is nothing but a convenient escape hatch, and all the positive things you attribute to HER are simply a reflection of what you want, not what really is. You honestly have NO idea of what living with her would really be like. You have not lived with her through adversity or illness (and leaning on one another w/marital problems doesn't count and even if it did, it would simply prove you are both capable of being disloyal). 

IF you really just want to be free from your "awful" wife, then do it. Just don't ruin things for your kids by dashing into a new relationship just when they need you most. You are a grown man. You are entitled to leave a spouse who cannot or will not meet your needs. But b/c you have kids, you must focus on helping them making the transition. When things are truly smooth and stable for them again--1 to 2 years down the road--you can think about a relationship IF you've been doing counseling. Only casual dating before then. Otherwise, you will complicate issues for your kids and distract yourself from becoming the kind of person you need to become if you want to avoid poor relationships in the future. Don't your kids deserve that, seeing their dad become a better and happier man, one who does not need affirmation from others to feel good about himself? When you become that person, you will make much better choices about partners, and teach your kids a lot more about self-worth, healthy compromise, and relationships. 

PS: Harshness warning!!! It is extremely childish to retaliate with "I think my wife has been playing "russian roulette" with their chance of growing up in an in tact family by telling her friends I was unattractive, by putting me down nearly every day, and by refusing to change." What on earth does that have to do with YOUR behavior and what your kids will suffer? So what if your wife is ALSO to blame--that's a given. Does that make it any better for your kids, that you can "blame" her? REALLY, does it? And if the best you can do is blame someone else, your kids are in for a lot of disappointment. They need to see someone take responsibility and make positive changes, not crying out, "well, she started it!"


----------



## picket fences

Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! EXCELLENT post! That last paragraph especially reflects what I've been seeing. Good job!


----------



## turnera

picket fences said:


> Meriter, you aren't staying for your kids. You're staying for YOU, because YOU would feel terribly if you did not get to see them as often as YOU want to. It's as clear as day.


MY guess is you're staying because SHE makes the money that you live off of. If you truly do earn enough at art to support yourself and your kids - who will be with you part time - then I apologize. But I'm guessing that probably isn't the case.

I'm assuming your degree is in art? What will you be doing once you go back to work?

Honestly, I'm not bashing you, just getting you to stop looking at the quick fixes and look at the real issue - you have let your wife take over your control of your marriage, you hate it, and instead of getting therapy or whatever you need to grow a spine and DEAL with her, you escape into what's easier - affairs and leaving.


----------



## Meriter

sisters359 said:


> Don't your kids deserve that, seeing their dad become a better and happier man, one who does not need affirmation from others to feel good about himself? When you become that person, you will make much better choices about partners, and teach your kids a lot more about self-worth, healthy compromise, and relationships.
> 
> PS: Harshness warning!!! It is extremely childish to retaliate with "I think my wife has been playing "russian roulette" with their chance of growing up in an in tact family by telling her friends I was unattractive, by putting me down nearly every day, and by refusing to change." What on earth does that have to do with YOUR behavior and what your kids will suffer? So what if your wife is ALSO to blame--that's a given. Does that make it any better for your kids, that you can "blame" her? REALLY, does it? And if the best you can do is blame someone else, your kids are in for a lot of disappointment. They need to see someone take responsibility and make positive changes, not crying out, "well, she started it!"


I suppose having a spouse who is always running me down isn't an excuse for self esteem issues? You say I shouldn't need affirmation from anyone but myself, but it seems to me the if one was to look anywere for reassurance, it should be to their spouse. 

As for the kids, I didn't/wouldn't tell them it was my wife's fault even if I thought it was. Iwas telling u that.-big difference.

Anyway, an update:
my wife and I got into an argument because she didn't want me to go outside (very controlling). I told her that I still love her, but that I'm not letting her control me like that anymore and that I am learning to be independant. And she said she didn't like it (at least she was honest I guess). 
But being independant would mean also not relying on my EA as many of u said.

Since my attitude adjustment, there has been a huge change at home. 
The trouble is, I still am having a real problem not remembering the hurtful things she said in the past. 
If she s
compliments my looks now, all I can wonder is "why do you like them now, but not before when they haven't changed?"
I'm not sure that feeling will ever go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Meriter

turnera said:


> MY guess is you're staying because SHE makes the money that you live off of. If you truly do earn enough at art to support yourself and your kids - who will be with you part time - then I apologize. But I'm guessing that probably isn't the case.
> 
> I'm assuming your degree is in art? What will you be doing once you go back to work?
> 
> Honestly, I'm not bashing you, just getting you to stop looking at the quick fixes and look at the real issue - you have let your wife take over your control of your marriage, you hate it, and instead of getting therapy or whatever you need to grow a spine and DEAL with her, you escape into what's easier - affairs and leaving.


first off, I sell art, but I can't even do it lately. During the day I am with the kids, and at night the wife will refuse to watch them because she was at work all day. Not to mention the fact that she will just tell me I'm wasting time and make me feel guilty for not spending each moment next to her.that's what it is-- she feels threatened by my art.
I've managed to sneak out 14 paintings and so far sold 7. Not a bad start, i don't think.

As i've said, staying home was wife's idea. Now i am graduating and kids r a bit older and I am going back to work. I think your opinions are a bit sexest, but whatever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Why do you care so much about how your wife felt about your playing soccer and so little about how she feels regarding your affair? 

It is easy to demonize your wife as a not nice person. Bet she would treat you differently if you actually asserted yourself.

If you want to be with the other woman - man up and get a divorce. But don't let your wife work to support you while you sneak around behind her back. 

You also need to be realistic about what will happen with your lover. Will she be ok with the income you earn painting and if not are you willing to get a job that pays more? 

As for the comment about your looks. Either your wife is participating with you in a good sex life or she isn't. If she is, get real and be grateful. If she is depriving you sexually then focus on that. Stop with the pity party about your appearance. It is not something a healthy grown man does.



Meriter said:


> Terrible title, I know, but I got you here!
> I had previous posts outlining my "journey", but I'm sure only a select few are familiar with them, so I'll start at the beginning.
> 
> It was a dark and stormy night. Born in a hospital in...
> okay okay too far back.
> 
> I DO have to go back to grade school though. My first real love was N who was a year younger than me. I was in 7th grade. Seems stupid even saying it. SEVENTH grade.
> We ended up going to different High schools and lost touch. I kept a box of her letters and re-read them every few years - never forgetting her.
> 
> I ended up marrying and having kids... Unbeknownst to me, she was doing the same thing.
> 
> As typical nowadays, we re-connected on facebook. My wife knew I was talking to her, and even knew about the letters I had kept. It started out fb emails, then regular emails, then phone calls... then eventually we wanted to see each other again after 17 years apart.
> 
> When I saw her again in person, I knew I was in trouble. Then again, I figured there was no way she'd feel the same and I'd have to get over it - but she did feel the same.
> 
> We hugged goodbye and one of us kissed the other and it was amazing. ..and terrible.
> 
> One day I accidentally left up part of one of our fb chats and my wife wanted an explanation. I admitted that I had feelings for her and she wanted me to promise I would never speak to her again. I refused.
> 
> I explained that, although I was wrong in letting it get that far, that there were reasons why I sought someone out and that we had issues to work on. Of course I know that we couldn't address our issues while I continued to talk to N, but I was being selfish.
> 
> My wife emailed N and told her to bug off (not in those words). N called me and read me the email and we all felt bad, but did that stop us?.....
> 
> My wife seemed to show a change, but it only lasted a few weeks.
> 
> I saw N again a few months later, but eventually her hubby caught on and we were forced to break it off. We never slept together or anything like that, just kissed.
> 
> People I confided in assured me it was just the thrill of the adventure and the feelings would fade. I was hoping they were right, but 5 more months passed (with no contact at all) and I felt the same.
> 
> I was flying somewhere alone and feeling pretty low about missing her (note that I didnt feel too low about sneaking around on my wife). When I landed, I checked my email and saw one from her.
> 
> After not talking for over 5 months it was a real surprise and couldnt have been better timing.
> 
> We pretty much re-started from scratch. Emails, then phone calls, then another meeting. We met again in public (have never been alone together in our lives), and there was alot of talking, some hugging, and a kiss or two, but nothing else.
> 
> That fact (no sex) doesn't bother me at all, by the way. I started to believe the people who thought she was just an unfulfilled sexual adventure were wrong. I find her incredibly attractive of course, but I don't sit and wish I could f--- her. I sit and wish I could hear her voice again, or hold her again, or look into her perfect eyes again...
> 
> I know, I know...
> 
> So that pretty much brings us to present day.
> 
> As for the troubles between my wife and I... She is very unsupportive and unappreciative of me. I am an artist and sell work. I get compliments from everyone, but my wife. In fact, my wife told me my artwork is "a waste of time".
> She told her friends this about me: "although he is unattractive, he treats me good". ..which I do, by the way (apart from the N situation).
> 
> Once I heard about the unattractive comment, nothing was the same with us. I felt the marriage was over but stayed for the kids.
> 
> She thinks everything is fine again (as usual).
> She assumes N no longer contacts me. She assumes I'm over the "unattractive" thing...
> she said to me the other day that I will never leave her because I'd never find anyone as good as her.
> 
> I told her today flat out that I am only staying because of the kids and because I fear how she will turn the kids against me if I leave. She is so full of herself that she assumed I was joking and laughed it off.
> 
> She puts me down all the time. If I find something I like doing, she forbids I do it or guilts me into stopping.
> I joined a men's soccer team and she didnt like the idea of me making friends, so she told me i wasn't any good at it and that I should stay home.
> 
> Besides all of that, we have our moments. I don't claim to be perfect, but when we had our N discussion and talked about what needed to be changed, she insisted that she had NO issues for me to work on. She thought everything was great up till then.
> 
> -Probably because to her, it WAS great. I stayed home, she had me under her thumb, and I didn't put up a fight.
> 
> There is a million discussions on the whole nice guy theory saying I am too nice and thus she doesnt respect me, but I've figured out that she is most comfortable in this position. If I show any independance, she flips out and tries to reel me back in.
> 
> So..after all of that, my question is this: what the F---- do I do now??
> N says that if caught talking to me again, she'll be single. I feel bad breaking up her marriage (potentially), but... I guess part of the reason I feel bad is because she has money now, once she is with me, we'll be poor. ..But of course my main concern is her child followed by her happiness.
> 
> Can you believe that I asked her once where she liked to be kissed and she almost cried because her hubby had NEVER asked her that in all their years together??
> 
> Then the other day on the phone N asked me about how my artwork is coming and I couldn't believe how good it felt. .. and I wondered why she is concerned about it, but my wife would prefer I stop with the artwork altogether.
> 
> ugh.
> 
> I know I haven't mentioned the kids much, but they are really on my mind. I care for the kids and am very close with them. I keep thinking that maybe it will be easier in 10 years? Is it ridiculous to commit to an unhappy marriage for another 10 years for the kids' sake?
> 
> Hey, thanks for reading all of that. I appreciate it.


----------



## turnera

Meriter said:


> first off, I sell art, but I can't even do it lately. During the day I am with the kids, and at night the wife will refuse to watch them because she was at work all day. Not to mention the fact that she will just tell me I'm wasting time and make me feel guilty for not spending each moment next to her.that's what it is-- she feels threatened by my art.
> I've managed to sneak out 14 paintings and so far sold 7. Not a bad start, i don't think.
> 
> As i've said, staying home was wife's idea. Now i am graduating and kids r a bit older and I am going back to work. I think your opinions are a bit sexest, but whatever.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Gee, I would think it was sexist if you were the GIRL, wouldn't you?

Everything you talk about is how you don't like what she does, or says, but I've gotta ask you, why does THAT control what you do?

Why don't you just sit down and discuss things like adults and find solutions? Instead of just blaming everything on her?


----------



## picket fences

Meriter, you mentioned things being different at home since your "attitude adjustment". But I'm looking, and I can't find evidence of a different attitude in your most recent posts in this thread. I'm wondering what got "adjusted"? 

Did you tell your wife the honest truth about the other woman?
And more importantly, did you completely end things - for good - with the other woman?

Really, nothing at all is going to change until that issue is resolved. Including your own attitude.

I wish you all the best!


----------



## Meriter

MEM11363 said:


> Why do you care so much about how your wife felt about your playing soccer and so little about how she feels regarding your affair?
> 
> It is easy to demonize your wife as a not nice person. Bet she would treat you differently if you actually asserted yourself.
> 
> If you want to be with the other woman - man up and get a divorce. But don't let your wife work to support you while you sneak around behind her back.




Wow. 
I really think I never should have mentioned staying home with the kids. Now it seems that is all anyone can focus on.
Once again, I worked and she stayed home, but she hated it, so we switched per her request. 
We're both in online college, but I do both of our homework. I now graduated and am looking for work right now. 
Is that really difficult to understand?
All you seem to get out of that is: 'he's being lazy and letting his wife earn all the money while he does nothing but sleep around.'

From now on I'm going to skip over such comments. It's a waste of time really.



MEM11363 said:


> You also need to be realistic about what will happen with your lover. Will she be ok with the income you earn painting and if not are you willing to get a job that pays more?


To answer your question, I AM willing to find a job that earns more, as I stated several times. Her dislike of my artwork isn't because it doesnt bring in enough money - it was never meant to be my sole career. My wife doesnt like it either because she's jealous she doesnt have a talent, or because she doesnt want my talent to replace her (she's admitted to both in the past).
And she isn't my "lover" by the way.



MEM11363 said:


> As for the comment about your looks. Either your wife is participating with you in a good sex life or she isn't. If she is, get real and be grateful. If she is depriving you sexually then focus on that. Stop with the pity party about your appearance. It is not something a healthy grown man does.


Oh yeah. So someone telling their friends that their spouse is unattractive shouldn't affect that spouse at all, right?
She can put me down in public all she wants, as long as she's putting out, then who cares, right? LOL.


----------



## Meriter

picket fences said:


> Really, nothing at all is going to change until that issue is resolved. Including your own attitude.
> 
> I wish you all the best!


Well, you're wrong. My attitude HAS changed. 
Sure, I went about it wrong - I used an EA, and some random compliments from friends to boost up my self esteem and learn to stand up for myself. ..But it worked so far. 
I stand up for myself at home and don't let my wife push me around and presto-chango, she seems to respect me more. 
She respects me more and thus treats me nicer.
She treats me nicer, and I feel appreciated....
It's a snow-ball effect. 
Sure, she doesn't know exactly how the snowball started, but....If I tell her now then either
a) we start over from square one, or
b) it's all over


----------



## turnera

> it was never meant to be my sole career


Isn't that what you started out with? "I'm an artist" I believe is what you said. That set the stage for us believing that you were at home because it allowed you to be an artist.

Aside from that, what are you doing to make your marriage an attractive place to be?


----------



## Philm

Dude I feel your pain...I'm going through something similar. I've been married to the same woman for almost 15 years with no intentions of ever being apart from her...Recently she, not being supportive of my religious beliefs, threatened to leave me if I didn't figure out how to believe what she believed. Then she left for a 3 day business trip. Everything happened so fast. Someone who I had been talking to as only a friend was suddenly there for me and a relationship developed over the next few weeks while my wife and I were having problems. It's all online so we don't see each other in person. But she gets me and we are so much alike that it seems we are two halves of the same being. It was all an accident. Neither of us really wanted this to happen. It just did and now my wife, unaware of this relationship, is starting to come around. I love her for this but now I have feelings for someone else.

I know what I have to do but breaking if off with this other woman is going to be very difficult for us both... I just keep dragging it out hoping I'm forced in one direction or the other because I don't want to choose.

Good luck brother!


----------



## MEM2020

Glad you are in the upward spiral. Totally smart to keep the EA to yourself. 

I did not intend to offend you about the art/money/work aspect of your situation. A couple random thoughts:
- In EVERY marriage people say hurtful things. It SUCKS it really does but you need to find a way to slowly let them go or you will poison yourself emotionally.
- I think for things like soccer - you need to be really firm. If you like it and if the schedule is not causing her unfair hardship then you need to stand your ground. 

By the way the BEST form of being assertive in my marriage is when I find a way to make fun of my wife in a light manner while letting her know that I plan to proceed with what I am doing. 

Like for me - if she were pressing me to quit soccer my first salvo back would be:

Are you jealous? (said with a smile) 

And if she keeps being a pain in the neck:

I like it - and I would be grateful if you could be happy for me. But if you can't - I will reluctantly settle for your utter silence on the subject (and now you give her that half smile)

At this point I would simply refuse to respond to anything else she says - if she gets aggressive I walk away.





Meriter said:


> Well, you're wrong. My attitude HAS changed.
> Sure, I went about it wrong - I used an EA, and some random compliments from friends to boost up my self esteem and learn to stand up for myself. ..But it worked so far.
> I stand up for myself at home and don't let my wife push me around and presto-chango, she seems to respect me more.
> She respects me more and thus treats me nicer.
> She treats me nicer, and I feel appreciated....
> It's a snow-ball effect.
> Sure, she doesn't know exactly how the snowball started, but....If I tell her now then either
> a) we start over from square one, or
> b) it's all over


----------

