# Living Without



## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

Well do I start I guess I can start by saying I have been married for three years. I’m currently 24 serving in the United States Army. I had a wonderful sex life before I was married including with my current wife. Everything seemed so perfect when we first met and how things worked out. I never thought things would be they way they are now. I’m living in an unsatisfied sexless marriage. I have read so many blogs from doctors and others having issues. I have to say I'm so sick of hearing the same excuse over and over again.

One of the main excuses I always hear is that she is a woman and she does all the work at home without your help. I will tell you right away this is a lie. My wife is in school and working hard at it we both put an effort into the daily chores. I’m so sick of hearing all this other issues saying she’s at home and shes stressed with everything that goes on when you're not home. I will also claim this is wrong. I have talked to her several times about issues she might be having. So far it’s just always a different excuse. I grow tired trying to fish out answers that never make sense. 

I guess the one thing I would like to attack is the simple idea that religion and everything aside people are there own person. There is no reason for someone to be unhappy throughout there marriage. If it’s not working out then leave if there is an issue you deem understandable fix it. We were never meant to just have one partner. We also were never meant to have to wait until marriage. If so then explain everything you see in human nature as a whole and think about it. I honestly believe in equal rights for women, but not the way you do. I believe for someone to be treated equally then they need to be treated equally. Not oh your a women let me carry that for you. Everyone in the world needs to pull their own weight. This means sexually, physically, and emotionally. There is no excuse for you to wait to have your husband to come along and ask you what's wrong explain to him there are issues that you would like to see fixed. 

A few other notes sex isn't a bargain ship. There should never be tick for tat. That whole idea pushes me over the edge when you love someone and you settle down with them. Don’t make them do something to get something the sad thing is this goes both ways men and women are equally responsible for this. If you want a woman who loves you then take time to figure out who they are, when things fall through leave there is nothing holding you to that person. I rather a kid grow up with no father then things escalating into violence while the kid is around.

If your a women and this offended you get over yourself. If you're a man and this made you open your eyes remember Just because I wrote this doesn't mean for you to act on it. It’s simply the idea that everything needs to be thought of and considered. I'm still currently married will it last forever I don’t know but I’m tired of the lies and false promises. I have shut my emotions down now and I think about it how to survive and live the next day. She shut down sexually I have needs so I shut down emotionally that way I wouldn't be the one to bother her with my sexual needs. I sleep on the couch so I can get away from my influence in wanting her. 


Remember this is just my thoughts and my emotions sorry if things don’t seem to make sense. I have been married for three years and have enjoyed only 2 months of it. I wake up every morning at 5 am to make sure everything is taken care of I provide her a place to stay food to eat comfort when she needed it and now I’m just done with my emotions. I won’t cater to someone who expects everything handed to them and they return nothing.

I have lost faith in my marriage and now I wait to see what it will become. I am not an ignorant person nor do my peers see me as such. But I'm stomped as of now I'm thinking my best option is to leave and cut the losses. Any real advice from someone would be nice. I rather deal with this problem on here then seeing a doctor again to tell me he's stomped at her issues.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

fluke said:


> We were never meant to just have one partner.


Biologically, you may be correct. However, there is a reason why monogamy evolved at a time when men ruled the world. Men benefit from monogamy. We probably benefit more than women do.

Now, if you are one of the rare men that have the capability of running a harem (movie star, CEO, pro athlete) then maybe that's a winning strategy for you. However, if you're just an average frustrated chump, then you probably have a maximum capacity of one woman in your family.



fluke said:


> We also were never meant to have to wait until marriage.


Again, perhaps not. I certainly agree that we weren't meant to wait until the age of modern marriage of mid-to-late twenties or even later. However, there is empirical evidence that women who wait to have sex with their husband divorce less, and are happier, than women who have multiple sexual partners.



fluke said:


> I believe for someone to be treated equally then they need to be treated equally. Not oh your a women let me carry that for you.


The great thing about chivalry is that it's a voluntary system. If you don't want to hold a door open for a woman, don't. I won't think less of you.



fluke said:


> I have shut my emotions down now and I think about it how to survive and live the next day. She shut down sexually I have needs so I shut down emotionally that way I wouldn't be the one to bother her with my sexual needs. I sleep on the couch so I can get away from my influence in wanting her.


Shutting down, as you have, might give you some emotional protection. But it's not going to make you happy. What will make you happy is taking action and doing things for yourself. Maybe you can improve your marriage. Maybe you can't. Maybe you can have a better relationship with another woman. However, you can be happier than you currently are.

I suggest Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. for some good, unconventional, advice.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

First, thank you for serving. I may not be from your country (I'm Canadian) but I respect what all of the military members due, so thank you for your efforts to protect our mutual freedoms. I salute you!

Second, I can really sense the anger in your post. I'm not going to dig into it to much, as I'm sure many others will, but let me just ask you this one question. You say the following: 



> There is no reason for someone to be unhappy throughout there marriage. If it’s not working out then leave


If you believe this, why don't you get a divorce?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

> ..But I'm stomped as of now I'm thinking my best option is to leave and cut the losses..



But that is reality. You want a fulfilling marriage. She does not consider your needs important. She is not under some kind of job which makes her exhausted all the times. She is not suffering from health problems like vaginal atrophy which rendered PIV sex totally physically impossible. She just refuse to have sex with you, thus depriving you what billions of other couples in the world are enjoying on weekly basis. Is that fair to you?

Marriage is take and give. If one side keeps on profiting and the other side keeps on losing, that is not marriage, that is slavery. Are you a slave? Do you wish to remain a slave for the rest of your life? 

Marriage is also understanding and tolerance. Making sincere efforts. But efforts within marriage only works if both sides cooperate. If you have tried to understand her, tried your best efforts to make her happy, but she does not reciprocrate, then I say get a divorce. You want a wife not a roomate or housefriend. Get a divorce and you two could still be good friends afterwards.


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

Thank you for the quick reply the reason for this post and not divorce is this is my last stand. The last thing I can do before I bring it up with a lawyer and work things out with him/her. I can over think things push hard with facts but in the end sometimes an outside influence is best to hear. 

I have been a slave at my work place for sometime I comfort her and give her nothing but what she desires. I never expected it to be me having these issues. To be a slave in my own home to someone who doesn't see my needs and work with me.

As for the book I have grown tired of reading fairy tails on how to solve issues. I have now grown into the fact that no matter how much I change myself for the better she will always remain the same with the issues she brings to the table. I would like to have a chat with a military man who has survived divorce and is still happy so I can better myself to be ready when the time comes.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

I never understood the "tired" complaint from women honestly. I mean, unless you're asking for a bj, or reverse cow-girl or some crazy kama sutra position... holy hell, what does she have to do but lay there? It would be like a guy saying he's too tired for a bj. Give me a break.

As far as I'm concerned, "tired" doesn't mean she's tired. It means she's not in the mood. If you're setting up the mood, and she's still "tired", stop trying to get it.

Do your own things independent of her. Be the guy that attracted her in the first place, not the domesticated version of yourself. If her interest still doesn't improve, then you'll be in a fine position to move on and can unload the total lack of sex as why you're wanting a divorce.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

One observation I've made is many men (not all) feel loved when they feel their partner wants to have sex them. Many women (again not all) feel sexy when they feel their partner loves them. 

Often times in life circumstances arise that cause a breakdown is this dynamic. The more he shuts down emotionally the more she shuts down sexually...and so on...and so on...

It's not easy to break the cycle. It takes a great deal of honest commitment and communication.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

fluke said:


> I would like to have a chat with a military man who has survived divorce and is still happy so I can better myself to be ready when the time comes.


Is there a way to do this through the military? I know the military offers some form of counselling, would it be possible to speak with a counsellor, solely to ask for this sort of discussion to be arranged? I'm sure that it could be worked out to even be an anonymous conversation with someone who will never meet you or even know who you are, considering the technology we have, such as skype, chatrooms, etc. Even e-mail would be helpful.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

fluke said:


> Thank you for the quick reply the reason for this post and not divorce is this is my last stand. The last thing I can do before I bring it up with a lawyer and work things out with him/her. I can over think things push hard with facts but in the end sometimes an outside influence is best to hear.
> 
> I have been a slave at my work place for sometime I comfort her and give her nothing but what she desires. I never expected it to be me having these issues. To be a slave in my own home to someone who doesn't see my needs and work with me.
> 
> As for the book I have grown tired of reading fairy tails on how to solve issues. I have now grown into the fact that no matter how much I change myself for the better she will always remain the same with the issues she brings to the table. I would like to have a chat with a military man who has survived divorce and is still happy so I can better myself to be ready when the time comes.


:iagree:

You're a military guy. I used to taught Karate to LEO before they dragged me to the National Olympic Committee, so I am sure you understand as much as I do, maybe even better than I do, about TEAMWORK.

When I was teaching Security Guards, I always emphasize the value of teamwork. I can teach them verbal skills, non-lethal arresting techniques and other SG standard skills. But without teamwork, it's each guard for him/herself. Good luck trying to defend your workplace if all your friends are sleeping away or skipping work, and you have to watch the premises all by yourself 24 hours straight. That's no teamwork, that's you doing all the work while your teammates having lots of fun at your expense.

See how it fits with the situation of your marriage? If you're doing all the work while your SO simply living off the benefit of being married to you, then what's the point getting married? Where's the teamwork? As you said, you're busting your ass to provide for her, but where's her efforts to maintain the marriage? If serious efforts were shown by her, you won't be coming here for advice, ne?

You won't tolerate this kind of behavior from your platoon members, ne? Why should you tolerate your SO doing this to you?


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> You're a military guy. I used to taught Karate to LEO before they dragged me to the National Olympic Committee, so I am sure you understand as much as I do, maybe even better than I do, about TEAMWORK.
> 
> ...


I enjoyed reading this thank you.

As for consoling I have tried many times and at the current moment all I ever hear is she is the problem and she is bringing you down in life. Or the other response maybe the military isn't for you. I walk in to find help but with the second one being a real response I doubt the military has offered any real funding for real professionals to help in this matter. I have worked my life hard and true to provide so why is it so hard to make the right choice when someone gives you everything and only needs one thing in return <compassion>.

I guess my next step would to be to get ready for the heart ache of leaving. The break down of not having someone there when I get home. Either way I will know the end result will be me in a happier situation.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

fluke said:


> Thank you for the quick reply the reason for this post and not divorce is this is my last stand. The last thing I can do before I bring it up with a lawyer and work things out with him/her. I can over think things push hard with facts but in the end sometimes an outside influence is best to hear.


I applaud you for this. Frivolous divorce is an epidemic in the Western world and I'm happy to see that you're busting your ass to save your marriage before you feel compelled to walk away.



fluke said:


> As for the book I have grown tired of reading fairy tails on how to solve issues.


I strongly recommend reading the book. At least go to the web site and read the blog. That's free and you can get a feel for the advice offered. Much of what is in the book is also on the blog.

But it's not what you're expecting. Conventional wisdom, which you've no doubt tried, is to listen more, help her with her chores more, be more sensitive, try to wait it out, etc. That's all crap. And that's not what MMSL is about. MMSL is about taking the red pill (Matrix) and waking up to how women actually think and relate to men.



fluke said:


> I have now grown into the fact that no matter how much I change myself for the better she will always remain the same with the issues she brings to the table.


Not necessarily. It's just about whether your changes are effective. See, if you've been living in the Matrix for your whole life, then you've probably worked harder and harder doing the wrong things. Maybe you were rushing home from work to do the dishes for her. That doesn't work. You can kill yourself doing things she just doesn't find sexy. And that certainly is frustrating.

Turn it around for a moment. Suppose you are a woman and you're trying to seduce a man. You've heard that the way to a man's heart is through his stomach, so you start cooking. You make all kinds of food. You spend time online researching recipes. You make all kinds of exotic meals. Will that work? Of course not. I'm sure your husband will appreciate the food. But what does he want sexually? He wants a strip tease, some lingerie, to see some skin, just touch him on the penis. See, a woman can spin her wheels doing stupid things that a man will never see as sexy.

If you take the red pill, suddenly you can learn what women find sexy and what they will appreciate, but never get wet over. And chores fall into the latter category. When you know what women are looking for, it becomes much easier to give them exactly that. Your efforts become focused and effective. You get maximum reward for minimum effort. You're working smarter, not harder.

So I suggest you start looking at some red pill resources like Married Man Sex Life and No More Mister Nice Guy. It can save you time, effort, and heartache. If not with this woman, certainly with the next one.

Good luck.


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## LittleBird (Jan 12, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I never understood the "tired" complaint from women honestly. I mean, unless you're asking for a bj, or reverse cow-girl or some crazy kama sutra position... holy hell, what does she have to do but lay there? It would be like a guy saying he's too tired for a bj. Give me a break.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, "tired" doesn't mean she's tired. It means she's not in the mood. If you're setting up the mood, and she's still "tired", stop trying to get it.
> 
> Do your own things independent of her. Be the guy that attracted her in the first place, not the domesticated version of yourself. If her interest still doesn't improve, then you'll be in a fine position to move on and can unload the total lack of sex as why you're wanting a divorce.



"How tired does she have to be to just lay there....*and let him do his business*". 

As Ms. Celie would say from the Color Purple, circa early 1900's.

First off, having sex when you don't want to is a highly invasive feeling.

Second off, even if she DID that he'd probably still ***** about it after a while. Not only does she have to do it, she has to be enthusiastic about it doing it even when she doesn't want to do it in the first place. 

That solves nothing, it just makes him feel unfulfilled and her feel resentful. 

Her just laying there won't solve the problem, unless the OP just wants a masturbatory device. 

There are deeper issues that need to be addressed.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

fluke said:


> I enjoyed reading this thank you.


You're welcome!



> ...I have worked my life hard and true to provide so why is it so hard to make the right choice when someone gives you everything and only needs one thing in return <compassion>.


This is because you really love your wife, that's why it's tough to make a decision. The fact that it's tough for you to make the decision shows that you love her, and even now you are still loving her.

If only she give you matching efforts to make the marriage work, you won't be here.

Nobody likes divorce, and even though we here gave you the advice for separation, we would still prefer that the two of you work together for the best of the marriage. Teamwork!


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

Last night I think proved to me where we where going in our relationship. I explained to her my issues and thoughts for the 5th time. The only reply I got was I'm sorry. I talked for a good half hour and all I got in return was I'm sorry. I'm so sick of hearing I'm sorry like is fixes everything that's always her answer then she walks away. I have given this woman everything she wanted. The only thing I got in return was two words I'm sorry. For some people I understand that's all you need to hear but there is a difference from I'm sorry with emotion behind it and I'm sorry are you done talking now. 


I wish that she is cheating on me.
I wish that she was a *****.
I wish that she thought I was ugly.
I wish that she was abusive.
I wish that there where issues that are common.

But to have this... Something I can do nothing about something I work so hard to keep happy. The only thing I'm left with is what do I do next.

As of now the only thing running through my head is how will I take the next step to do so happily. I am very much in love with her but enough is enough my depression and tension is turning into a burning desire of conflict and physical resolution. I have to get out I have to move on before I make the mistake and do what my emotions push me too. I'll talk to 1st sgt about getting a barracks room I don't know how much more I can take. Imagine that using my tax refund to pay for a lawyer never thought this would happen.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

fluke said:


> ...The only thing I got in return was two words I'm sorry. For some people I understand that's all you need to hear but there is a difference from I'm sorry with emotion behind it and I'm sorry are you done talking now.


Eh, well, are you sure she was saying sorry while she meant 'r u done talking now'?

Be as that may, in my country we have this sayings:

"Saying 'I am sorry' without making amends for past wrongdoings, is an insult for the word 'sorry'"..

If she said sorry then really making an efforts to atone for past sins, will you be accepting her back?


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

john_lord_b3 said:


> Eh, well, are you sure she was saying sorry while she meant 'r u done talking now'?
> 
> Be as that may, in my country we have this sayings:
> 
> ...


She said sorry then walked away without any thought or pattern. Said nothing else to me and left me there with only anger and rage. I have heard her say sorry so many times to see nothing ever change. I'm fed up with the I'm sorry. It's isn't a scape goat there is no reasoning behind you saying it other then a sort answer to escape.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I tell my kids if you say you're sorry, it means you won't do it again. If you do it again, you really weren't sorry.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

fluke said:


> She said sorry then walked away without any thought or pattern. Said nothing else to me and left me there with only anger and rage. I have heard her say sorry so many times to see nothing ever change. I'm fed up with the I'm sorry. It's isn't a scape goat there is no reasoning behind you saying it other then a sort answer to escape.


Eh, yea. That's a disrespectful "I am sorry", not a sincere "I am sorry"..


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

fluke said:


> Last night I think proved to me where we where going in our relationship. I explained to her my issues and thoughts for the 5th time. The only reply I got was I'm sorry. I talked for a good half hour and all I got in return was I'm sorry.


I'll defend your wife here. You had the awkward talk about why you're not happy for the 5th time and you expected things to go differently from the first 4 times? Seriously? Do you know the definition of insanity?

Your wife reacted the same way she did the first 4 times because you accepted her reaction the first 4 times. She can't read your mind to see whether you're really serious this time. All she has to go on is your past behavior, where you accepted her refusals.

Also, assuming your wife isn't an idiot, she knows you're unhappy. Women know that men like sex. Women know that men being denied sex are unhappy. As long as she's not stupid, she understands what she's doing to you. However, she's not going to stop it until you give her a reason to.

And, talking is generally a bad idea. You're never going to debate your wife into wanting to have sex with you. It's just not possible. If it were possible, then it would have been your high school debate team dating the cheerleaders instead of the jocks.

So stop talking and start doing. You don't need to be in the barracks to move toward a divorce. You can live with your wife and let her see you having fun without her. She might just want to come along and have fun with you (via sex).

Good luck.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I agree with PHTLump on this, minus the concept of talking being generally bad. I agree that on the 5th talk, it is a bad idea, but all efforts for change should start with a talk. Or even a couple of discussions. Where Fluke errored IMO is by not enacting change following the second talk, whether that be by running the MAP, talking divorce, or whatever else.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

kingsfan said:


> I agree with PHTLump on this, minus the concept of talking being generally bad. I agree that on the 5th talk, it is a bad idea, but all efforts for change should start with a talk. Or even a couple of discussions. Where Fluke errored IMO is by not enacting change following the second talk, whether that be by running the MAP, talking divorce, or whatever else.


Yeah. That's what I meant.


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

things are turning around today will see what all goes one within the next month.


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

Well When I thought I was on the right path everything crashed. I'm now currently with a empty home. Walked in the door and nothing was there. The home we worked so hard on I'm not trying to play a pity card or play the crowd in my favor. She left me after I tried so hard to work through things. She's gone now nothing I can do she called me and told me we will work on our problems from a distance. She moved into a trailer and has no job no money. I don't understand what kinda of execution of a plan this was I can't support two households on my income and I didn't chose for her to leave. Do I call it quits?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

fluke said:


> Well When I thought I was on the right path everything crashed. I'm now currently with a empty home. Walked in the door and nothing was there. The home we worked so hard on I'm not trying to play a pity card or play the crowd in my favor. She left me after I tried so hard to work through things. She's gone now nothing I can do she called me and told me we will work on our problems from a distance. She moved into a trailer and has no job no money. I don't understand what kinda of execution of a plan this was I can't support two households on my income and I didn't chose for her to leave. Do I call it quits?


Yes. And don't give her one damned dime until a court order you to do so. She made the choice to go live somewhere else with no means of supporting herself or successfully executing her plan.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

fluke said:


> Do I call it quits?


It seems like she's called it quits for you. So just accept that it is probably over and start moving on. Talk to a lawyer ASAP and, as samyeager said, don't give her a penny until confirming with your lawyer that it is a good idea. Cutting her off completely may look vindictive to a divorce court. But, you shouldn't be spending more for her benefit until you are forced to. Just let your lawyer talk you through a separation or divorce.

Run the MAP. Run the 180. Maybe she will turn around. However, she probably won't. But you'll be ready for other options when they present themselves.

Good luck.


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## fluke (Jan 30, 2013)

only issue that hurts me is Army Regulation 608–99. So I would love to follow your advice but when it comes down to it the army doesn't care about the soldier.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Talking never works.Talking and taking action does. 

You need to tell her that "sorry" isn't good enough anymore and also tell her that you have one foot out the door.. See if she says sorry then. 

This is the 5th time you have had the talk with her and the result has been the same, with no change.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

I didn't see that she left..

I wouldn't support her, make her get a job and support herself. Who is she living with? 

She is running away from the issues.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Is it just me or is there 6 months of story missing here?


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

RClawson said:


> Is it just me or is there 6 months of story missing here?


SNAP!!!

I am only guessing there might be some foul play here, trailer? Please, this is all bad, get to a lawyer asap and get busy with yourself, buy and old truck and rebuild it or do something you used to like doing that is time and thought consuming.

If she left then there is usually outside influence that told her it was a good idea!

You said she was in school and you were obviously supporting her, and not to mention the support within the home with chores etc, I would hazard a guess that she has a new "friend" and that is why things went so rocky, you trying to suck up and win her over was not working as it just gave her comfort to come home to and is now working things out for herself.

I might suggest putting a PI on her and check her out for infidelity, makes the divorce easier, and it would certainly explain her behavior towards you!!!


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I'm Navy, not Army, but here's how I read that regulation:

Once you divorce her, she is no longer a member of your family, and her welfare is not your concern. For now, yes, she is your concern. I would keep all those messages about her moving out as a paper trail and if need be show them to your Chain. Prove to them that you are willing to provide for her and she made this decision on her own to put herself in that position. If you have messages you've sent asking her to come home and she's said no, that's all the better for your case; you can prove that you tried to help her out, and get her back, but she's refusing.

I do think that if you stay married for a prolonged period of time "trying to work things out" and she stays in that trailer, though, that you could be found in violation. 

Because as long as she shows up on your Page 2 (well...what is it in Army...your Dependency Page), she is your concern and you have to provide for her.

I hope your 1ST SGT didn't let you move back into the barracks; you cannot live in barracks while collecting BAH, and as long as you have dependents you have to get BAH. Unless you declare yourself a geographical bachelor, which in my experience is VERY difficult to be approved for.

You did the right thing up to this, by trying to work your marriage out and fix your issues. Now, you are doing the right thing by divorcing her.


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