# Bipolar or just insane?



## pahairpuller (Apr 4, 2014)

I'll start this post granting that you, the reader, don't know everything about our past. But I love my wife, and I want to help her. I just don't know what is wrong with her. 

My problem with her is that she seems to have the mind of a child. I do everything I can to make her life better, but everything I say and do is taken the wrong way. She's had some health problems. She's taking meds for depression and anxiety (which she took before I met her). But progressively, as she gets older, she seems to be getting worse... like she has the mind of a child.

She has had a hysterectomy in the past couple of years, and it seems to have gotten worse since then. She's taking hormone therapy, but still, she's just so mean!!!!!!!!!!!

She has had pain, and several surgeries since then to try to find the cause, and I am always by her side - paying for the procedures through insurance by my employer, paying the additional fees, being at her bedside, and trying to help her in any way that I can.

Her mental state is what I'm concerned about, and I'm going to give you an example from tonight, and I can assure you that this is NOT MORE than typical....

I took her to the hospital this morning at 10:30 AM, with her surgery scheduled for 1:00. I took a vacation day from work to do this, which I was more than happy to do. I stayed in the hospital until after 7 PM, with a short "break" to go get the kids from school to bring them to the hospital. I was by her side every minute the hospital staff allowed me to be - I even went back to check on her so many times, they let me in the recovery room before they were supposed to!

So, when I get in the room with her, she starts asking me what the doctor said, and I tell her - even showing her the pictures... but she's telling me I'm an "idiot" and I "didn't ask the right questions", and "how many centimeters was this adhesion", etc.. things the doctor didn't tell me, and nobody would ever think to ask in a situation like that - after all, I'm not a doctor.

Understandably, she's nauseous on the way home in the car, but every time I stop, she tells me what a bad driver I am (and this is typical, although very much untrue). 

So we get home, and she has to get over the nausea from the surgery for a while, and then she asks me to get her a "Wendy's Kid's Hamburger Meal, with a Coke". She also wanted an apple pie, and asked if Wendy's had one - I didn't know. So, I go and order a hamburger kid's meal, and a coke, and they don't have an apple pie. So I go next door to Arbys, where they have an apple turnover and buy that, and think she's going to be thrilled (as I'm so often mistaken). 

I get home, and she doesn't like that I've gone 2 places, even though they are right beside each other. Then she opens the food, and finds that it's a cheeseburger instead of a hamburger! OH MY GOD! She let into me for an HOUR! (And in case you're wondering, this is the norm, not because of the surgery). She went on for over an hour about how I was just concerned about myself and not her (because I had had something to eat earlier, and she didn't want a cheeseburger, but a hamburger) and she REFUSED to eat it, and REFUSED to eat it EVEN IF I WENT BACK AND GOT WHAT SHE HAD ORDERED (INSTEAD OF WHAT THEY GAVE ME THAT WAS WRONG)!!!! 

I'm sitting there (for the 1000'th time) with my mouth hanging open, wondering.. WTF? You wanted THIS.. they gave me THAT... So let me go back and get what you wanted!!!

But NOoooooo!

She called me the "worst husband" and a "piece of #r$ue#u, etc, and this went on for 2 hours. I wish I could say this was an unusual night, but it's EVERY NIGHT, and always about something so TRIVIAL and CORRECTABLE!

Does ANYBODY know what I'm talking about here?

-pullinghairinpitt


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh, this one is easy. Stop being a doormat. HERE, thank me later.


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## pahairpuller (Apr 4, 2014)

Sounds easy, but I have 2 kids, and I'm 49 years old. I have been divorced 2 times, paid tens of thousands in child support so far, and don't want to do it for the rest of my life. When you meet them, they "appear" normal, but the fangs come out when the ring goes on. 

For all of you that are younger and have not yet made a mistake,...please learn from my many mistakes.

I believe her problems started with the female problems (hysterectomy in particular). I've made many mistakes in the past, and don't want to have to "try" to afford this one. She needs some help, but I can't make her see it (duh)


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## pahairpuller (Apr 4, 2014)

I just bought the book. Thanks for the lead....


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## pahairpuller (Apr 4, 2014)

OMG, MSP, I have bought the book, but also downloaded the text from a torrent. This is SO very right about what I need to do.

Thank you!


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

pahairpuller said:


> OMG, MSP, I have bought the book, but also downloaded the text from a torrent. This is SO very right about what I need to do.
> 
> Thank you!


You're welcome.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

PA, you seem to be describing the warning signs for a personality disorder. If I had to guess, I would say the behaviors you describe are closest to the warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I am not suggesting that she has the full-blown disorder but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

Yet, if that is true, you almost certainly would have seen those BPD traits -- e.g., the temper tantrums, rapid mood changes, verbal abuse, acting like a child, and always being "The Victim" -- starting right after the wedding, if not before. They would not lie hidden for years and then suddenly appear right after a hysterectomy. 

On the other hand, a sudden change in hormones can cause a person's BPD traits to flair up temporarily until the hormones are stablized. An important issue, then, is (a) whether she is exhibiting strong BPD traits and (b) how early in your relationship those traits started showing quite strongly (right after the hysterectomy or much earlier?).

As to your question (_"Bipolar or just insane?"_), I don't know the answer because I've never met the woman and I'm not a psychologist. What I can say, however, is that the behaviors you describe are some of the classic warning signs for BPD, not for insanity or bipolar disorder. I know that because hundreds of the best mental health centers list those BPD symptoms on their websites in an attempt to educate the lay public. If you are interested, I describe 12 very clear differences I've seen between the behavior of typical BPDers (e.g., my exW) and bipolar sufferers (e.g., my foster son) at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences. 

In any event, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your two children are dealing with. Whenever BPD is a strong possibility, it is important to see a psychologist who has never seen or treated your W and thus is ethically bound to protect only your best interests, not hers. 

I mention this because therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer -- much less tell her H -- the name of her disorder (for her own protection). Remember, your W's therapist is NOT YOUR FRIEND. He is ethically bound to protect her best interests. Hence, relying on *her therapist* for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on *her attorney* for candid advice during the divorce. 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psychologist, you read my list of BPD red flags at 18 Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would recommend you read my more detailed description of them at my post in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Indeed, there are more than two dozen very active TAM members who have much experience with strong BPD traits, including both the abused partners and the BPDers themselves. Take care, PA.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Along with the "No more mr nice guy" stuff...

We teach people how to treat us. 

You have taught your wife that she can treat you this way and you will not only put up with it but run around in circles to try to guess what will make her happy.

Learn to tell her "no", "I will not do anything for you when you talk to me like that."

If you change, she will have to change.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Along with the "No more mr nice guy" stuff...
> 
> We teach people how to treat us.
> 
> ...


Not necessarily. Especially if she does have a PD.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mikealone (Nov 26, 2008)

If she has BPD she will have had the disorder from being a teenager, you will have noticed before you married her.


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## Stevenj (Mar 26, 2014)

Are you better off with her or without her?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

mikealone said:


> If she has BPD she will have had the disorder from being a teenager, you will have noticed before you married her.



Not always. The traits may be there but it is possible to develop adult onset BPD. Happened to my wife after a rather stressful period of her life.


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## mikealone (Nov 26, 2008)

john117 said:


> Not always. The traits may be there but it is possible to develop adult onset BPD. Happened to my wife after a rather stressful period of her life.


You are correct:

"The symptoms of borderline personality disorder usually first occur in the teenage years and early twenties. However, onset may occur in some adults after the age of thirty, and behavioral precursors are evident in some children".

Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified - overview of symptoms, effects, complications, treatments, and prognosis


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

OP, I've known several BPD women now (I swear I'm drawn to them like a magnet). The thing is, none of them have been consistently abusive. Their perception of you seems to wildly swing. One day, you're a saint... the next day, triggered by some insignificant thing, you're the worst person in the world. Do you notice this sort of thing? I'd recommend reading "I hate you, don't leave me" if you suspect your wife may be Borderline.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

OP, you say this is your third marriage. Have you looked at yourself as the common denominator here? Yes, she might still have out-of-whack hormones. Yes, she might have BPD. Yes, she might simply just be scared of poor health/dying and is lashing out at you. Yes, she might sense your resentment and contempt.

No, sometimes (not always) the "why" doesn't matter nearly as much as the "what will I do about me and for me to become better in this situation regardless of what she does?"

Honestly, it's getting old seeing (edit to add "nearly") every instance of mental illness, hormonal imbalance and abuse get whittled down to "she has BPD! Run!" (in a general sense). 

OP, go to IC. Insist she go to a different GYN who specializes is post-hysto and menopause, then to IC herself. Her IC should be able to assess how her medical conditions contribute to her behavior, and refer her out to a psychiatrist if it looks like meds are needed. Do that for 6 months, then go to MC together. 

I'm continually astounded at the number of people unwilling to (added: do their part and) step up and insist their spouses get proper medical treatment (including mental health) prior to jumping on the "it's all them" bandwagon. You took a vow to honor her, and part of honoring her is to challenge her to advocate for herself medically, while you also advocate for proper treatment of her illnesses and conditions. (And I say that as the very frustrated partner with PTSD who's married to a PTSD-having guy who's also going through the process to find out if that's all it is.) It is not a cake walk. I want to leave sometimes. I want him to be all better, yesterday. But that's not how this works. 

There's nothing wrong (and everything right) with insisting your spouse take good medical care of herself. You agreed to do that when you married her.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

TikiKeen said:


> Honestly, it's getting old seeing (edit to add "nearly") every instance of mental illness, hormonal imbalance and abuse get whittled down to "she has BPD! Run!" (in a general sense).


In fairness, if she is BPD, I didn't imply he should run. But knowing about BPD is HUGE in being able to handle someone with it. Not sure how you pass the info along, but if that shoe fits, she should also be encouraged to go to therapy and gain self-awareness.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

The rest of my post covered that, I think.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TikiKeen said:


> Honestly, it's *getting old* *seeing* (edit to add "nearly") every instance of mental illness, hormonal imbalance and abuse get whittled down to "*she has BPD! Run!*" (in a general sense).


Tiki, I agree with DvlsAdvc. Nobody on this thread has claimed _"she has BPD."_ Nor has anyone claimed that the OP should _"run" _due to BPD. It therefore is inappropriate for you to be disparaging the BPD-related comments of four other members as _"getting old."_


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Ah, but I do get to say that when 80% of your particular responses are "have you assessed her for BPD?" or "those are the hallmarks for BPD"-type responses. The reality is that true BPD diagnoses are rare, because at least two non-PD illnesses have over-lapping symptoms.

Anecdotally, I remember asking my MC to assess my H for it, and her response was "do you want knowledge or a change in behavior and improvement in your marriage? He needs IC and a medical doctor, then we can go from there." Why wouldn't an overall assessment and plan to stop the behavior be the first thing to do? Part of that dynamic is OP's contribution, too, which cannot be overlooked.

While I feel for those of you caring for spouses with BPD, I also encourage you to not read into others' situations. Yes, something is seriously wrong, but beginning with an MMPI and looking for "whatever is there" is less biased than walking in and asking the therapist to look for any specific diagnosis.

BPD happens to present as bipolar often...and PTSD can present as both. So can brain tumors. So can high blood pressure and mini strokes. So can general anxiety. 

The problem OP describes is that his W doesn't want to "Find out what's going on" at all. Approaching it from "I want you to be healthy" might result in her being more receptive than "you need serious mental help" type stuff.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TikiKeen said:


> Ah, but *I do get to say *that when 80% of your particular responses are "have you assessed her for BPD?" or "those are the hallmarks for BPD"-type responses.


No, not in this thread you don't. Launching a broad-brush criticism against my contributions over the past several years should be done in a separate thread instead of trying to hijack this one. If you want to start such a thread, I will be glad to join you there.



> The reality is that true BPD diagnoses are rare, because at least two non-PD illnesses have over-lapping symptoms.


No, the reality is that BPD diagnoses are rare because (a) most BPDers can easily hide their symptoms in a 50-minute meeting held once a week and (b), even when therapists spot the BPD traits, they generally are loath to tell anyone about it -- for reasons I discuss at Loath to Diagnose.



> I also encourage you to not read into others' situations. Yes, something is seriously wrong, but beginning with an MMPI and looking for "whatever is there" is less biased than walking in and asking the therapist to look for any specific diagnosis.


My objective is NOT for the OP to "walk in and ask for any specific diagnosis." Rather, it is for the OP to "walk in" to begin with. With psychologists charging $150/hour and psychiatrists twice that, most people are very reluctant to see them without first spotting some serious symptoms, i.e., warning signs. This is why hundreds of mental health centers post symptoms of BPD and other disorders on their public websites. 

Likewise, medical centers post the symptoms for numerous diseases (e.g., breast cancer, heart attack, and stroke) on their websites for the same purpose: to get folks to come in before it's too late. The objective is not to promote self-diagnosis but, rather, to get people to seek professional help.



> BPD happens to present as bipolar often...and PTSD can present as both. So can brain tumors. So can high blood pressure and mini strokes. So can general anxiety.


As I said above, diagnosing BPD can be very difficult in a 50-minute meeting held once a week. Yet, nobody on this thread has suggested that the OP attempt to diagnose his W. Only a professional can do that. I therefore suggested he see a clinical psychologist. 

I also suggested that, while he's waiting for an appointment, he familiarize himself with BPD warning signs to see if they sound familiar. After the man has been living with a W for a year or two, spotting these red flags -- if any are occurring -- is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about signs such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and the childlike behavior he complains about.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Easiest sign yet is black and white thinking and painting. Other behaviors can be "explained away" but not this one.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

TikiKeen said:


> Approaching it from "I want you to be healthy" might result in her being more receptive than "you need serious mental help" type stuff.


I think that's the intent of those who have brought up BPD. Yes, its not the only possible diagnosis - we're not psychiatrists and we don't have all the information. But those of us with experience with BPD partners recognize the traits as problematic, and suggest OP look into what we're aware of. Both to help him handle her, and to give him a leg up in what could be a process to help her become more self-aware, stable and healthy.

I don't think anyone was suggesting "Yo chick, you're crazy, I'm out." For all of the problems, BPD women I know are still some of the most charismatic and awesome women I know. It all comes down to how self-aware you are and how you manage it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> Easiest sign yet is black and white thinking and painting. Other behaviors can be "explained away" but not this one.


I had to laugh at this.Not because I think it isn't true,it's TOTALLY true,but because I see more black and white thinking on tam in general than I've ever had come out of my own BPD brain. Just made me chuckle


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

I'll continue to disagree and believe that some of you with BPD partners continue to project. While raising awareness is good, it can also lead those who are unfamiliar with psych diagnoses and with the process into a turn that's nearly as overwhelming as living with someone who's ill.

We all do agree that getting there to have her looked at is essential. OP, is she even willing to go see a medical doc? She can override HIPAA with a release which allows you to be in the room with her. You can also consider setting the boundary that she gets a full psych assessment along with a medical look-see, or you'll consider separating (if you're at that point.) 

Sadly, she could not be ill at all and just be a jerk. I hope that's not the case.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

OP,I don't know if your wife has BPD or not. I can tell you I endured years of constant pain,surgeries,and countless doctor visits for female issues. It made me a mean,nasty,impatient jerk bc I was just so damn tired of suffering day in and day out. There was never a break.Never a reprieve and never any definitive answers. 

My behavior was crappy because of my situation and my poor coping skills and shoddy communication skills...not because I have BPD. 

It's entirely possible she has developed some sort of PD. But it's also entirely possible her hormones are really screwing her up and she's beyond frustrated with life at this point. It's clear that something needs to improve so she can stop abusing you. 

Bottom line,you won't know anything til she gets to therapy.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Also,on second read through of the original post,she sounds like a spoiled rotten princess who never learned how to treat people properly.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some of us know a thing or two about psychology  and the criteria used by therapists for BPD or other PD diagnoses are not that "complicated" for the layman to interpret... What is complicated is how the criteria present themselves. A high functioning BPD is quite adept to hold a job, act normally, etc. And if you ask them they are as healthy as oxen.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Where are her moments of putting him on a pedestal though? It seems like it's all abuse all the time. That's not a classically bpd way of being. How is she with her kids? Her other family? before the female troubles was she hyper sexual? Have all her relationships been volatile?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Where are her moments of putting him on a pedestal though? It seems like it's all abuse all the time. That's not a classically bpd way of being. How is she with her kids? Her other family? before the female troubles was she hyper sexual? Have all her relationships been volatile?



Eventually Bad and Good becomes Bad and Slightly Less Bad.

Or, the non BPD learns to predict super Bad episodes and mitigate / manipulate them away.

Or the BPD follows some boundaries that limit Bad to tolerable.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> Eventually Bad and Good becomes Bad and Slightly Less Bad.
> 
> Or, the non BPD learns to predict super Bad episodes and mitigate / manipulate them away.
> 
> Or the BPD follows some boundaries that limit Bad to tolerable.


I understand those things,being someone with BPD,but I was hoping he'd answer my questions about her. We need more information other than his initial vent about her,imo.


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

Does it matter if its BPD or not? If this is the way she's always treated him she sounds like a real piece of work and he has to ask himself what is he getting out of this relationship.

If his answer is he's 49 and he doesn't want to pay child support and that's the only reason then he needs to run for the hills.

There's a very good website www.shrink4men.com
Click on the index tab and read the articles.
You'll find many stories and articles identical to yours and maybe some answers.

In fact start with this one

http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/10-signs-your-girlfriend-or-wife-is-an-emotional-bully/

I smell codependency here. Good luck op


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

ricky15100 said:


> Does it matter if its BPD or not? If this is the way she's always treated him she sounds like a real piece of work and he has to ask himself what is he getting out of this relationship.
> 
> If his answer is he's 49 and he doesn't want to pay child support and that's the only reason then he needs to run for the hills.
> 
> ...


I do feel there is a point to knowing as much as one can about her 'condition' 

In my own experience as my knowledge of mstbxw bpd grew I was able to deal with her in a more understanding way. It certainly lengthened our time together although sadly that in itself di not turn out to be a good thing

But in terms of dealing with her problems knowing what was behind it all certainly helped me cope with it.

Annoyingly had I known less and been less understanding :scratchhead: I would have left her 8 years ago and saved myself 8 years of serial cheating 

C'est la vie


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

*Re: Re: Bipolar or just insane?*



Headspin said:


> I do feel there is a point to knowing as much as one can about her 'condition'
> 
> In my own experience as my knowledge of mstbxw bpd grew I was able to deal with her in a more understanding way. It certainly lengthened our time together although sadly that in itself di not turn out to be a good thing
> 
> ...


I think the only benefits you get from learning about the condition is that it helps you realise thats it isnt you thats nuts, and it can help to get out of the situation, somebody once described this condition as a person that is drowning and youve dived in and saved them, only to turn round and find theyve thrown themselves back in the water, rinse and repeat for the rest of your life. That is no way to live


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