# Angry, Unhappy, Violent, Depressed Wife!



## Gladiator

Its been over a year and a half since I got married to my wife. We did not know each other before marriage except for a couple of months of courtship time wherein the interactions were also minimal. We got married and few months later moved together to a new country where I work. For the first few months after we landed in a new place, it was hell.. Literally. I had to go through the following:


Violent behaviour (during which she would bite me, scratch me with her nails, hit me and few occasions threw at me whatever came to her hand) by her once every 4-7 days lasting for about 1-2 hours continued with profuse crying.
Kept repeatedly telling during such episodes that she wanted to 'undo' everthing of this Marriage.
Did a lot of 'hate speech' (that she hated me to the core) about me on and off and definitely during those violent episodes.
Highly short tempered and ultrasensitive to any kind of talking I do. I was completely scared to talk to her anything. Because, you never know how it would be perceived and interpreted by her. Her only intention during 'any' conversation was to find fault with what I do, what I talk, how I talk, etc. or end up accusing me of having insulted her.
Very very adamant and arrogant. Never ever liked to get told anything. Even the most basic things in life and even if done very politely. Rather, she did not even like to do anything that I talk about. She always wanted to do the opposite of what I say.

This kind of behaviour stopped after around 9-10 months when we decided to buy a new house and move in. I thought things would get better in the new place with we being in our own place. That dint help much either. But definitely the intensity of fights & arguments reduced. However, the relationship was still in its downward trend non-stop. 

All this time she was not working. After a break of around 1.5 years, she has got a job and started working.

In the last 3-4 months, we did have strong arguments and after that would live under the same roof with very minimal basic interactions for at least 2-3 days in row! I have stopped arguing with her these days. If she accuses me of anything, I keep quiet. That will also infuriate her that I am not feeling sorry or apologising. I would not have done anything wrong at all. It will all be her assumption.

The basic problem I understand is that she does not trust me. Not in the sense that I will have an affair. She trusts that I will not do that. At least thats what I think. I would also be very clear on this. I would not cheat her under any circumstances. But with other insignificant things, she does not trust me at all. She does not like me calling and talking to my Mom. She does not want to meet any of my friends. I had to really force her to come a couple of times. After that I have stopped calling people home or going to others houses.

Another problem that I have noticed is that she assumes a lot of things. I would not have said anything like what she claims I did. But she will insist that I said that and start and arguments which will continue for a few days. I just keep quiet without knowing what to do. I am not sure how long I can survive like this.

I am terribly afraid and scared of her, not attracted physically to her anymore, minimal interest to have sex with her, unable to get any emotional connect with her, unable to speak my mind in any form or be myself and feeling totally suppressed and controlled by her.

Nowadays, she has started saying that she wants to leave me after making some money. My understanding is that she just hates living with me. I dont see any point in sticking to someone you are not happy with. So, if she decides to leave me and go, it would not come as a surprise. I am ok with that if that will make her and feel happy in/with life.

I am not sure what is triggering this kind of behaviour in her. Possibly, her parents did not share a good relationship together. This is my inference from what she has told me of them. Her Dad is a chain smoker with occasional drinking episodes. Apparantly, he used to beat her Mom as well which she has witnessed several times. If I open any of these topics for discussion I am dead meat!

Even though I want to save this Marriage, I just dunno what to do in this sitiation!!!


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## Susan2010

If you want to save the marriage, which I don't know why, you will have to ask her to go to marriage counseling with you. You are married to an abusive woman, who also needs individual counseling but I doubt she will agree to that.


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## unbelievable

Domestic Violence laws forbid the appropriate remedy for this situation. I will catch loads of grief over saying so, but back in the day, a trip to the woodshed would have cured this one's malfunction and possibly salvaged a decent wife, or at least a less irritable, non violent one. Alas, that is no longer a realistic option, but divorce is. I can't think of any logical reason for hanging on to such a woman unless a guy just craves everlasting punishment. Is she adding something to your life other than misery and torment? Have you done something so evil in your life that you warrant a life sentence? 
If I were feeling especially generous, I might give her a chance to square away (which she won't). I might tell her that you don't expect her to always be loving and sweet but that you do expect her to be civil, non-threatening, and non-violent in her dealings with you. If she chooses to cross that boundary, all bets are off and her bags are immediately and permanently on the curb. Let her brighten some other guy's day with her sunshiny disposition.


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## Gladiator

Susan & Unbelieveable:

Thanks for your replies. What I am trying to do here is to find out if I have made any mistake in not keeping her happy to make her behave like this. Or, anything from her past is making her hate men. I am not sure. If I break up with her, I am not going to be able to come out of it or possibly try be intimate with another woman. The wreckage caused by separation will make me lose respect for any female. I dont want that to happen.

In many respects, she is a nice girl. If something cane be done to find out whats really bothering her, things could possibly change for the better.


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## unbelievable

Gladiator, you can't make people happy. People decide to be happy or miserable. The earth is green because it's been fertilized with the decaying corpses of billions of people who have killed themselves trying to put a grin on someone's face. This woman is a miserable person, not because you make her so, but because she prefers it that way and she doesn't know how to be anything else.


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## greenpearl

Some women have these traits:
They are jealous. They are insecure. They are demanding. They are inconsiderate. They are arrogant. They are selfish. They think that men should treat them like children, so they act like children. They always blame others for their unhappiness, but don't know they themselves are the problems. I can keep on going......................
She is making herself unhappy. She won't be happy elsewhere. She can destroy you if you are not strong. 
She has to learn her lessons, or she can grow old and become a miserable witch.


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## greenpearl

Some women threaten their men with divorce all the time. Next time is she does it, just tell her it is OK. And see how she reacts. If you are too lenient towards her, she just thinks that she can act silly and never learn!


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## Gladiator

Greenpearl - Thanks for your comments.

I do agree with the points in your first post. But, if I treat her like a child, that too creates hell lot of problem saying I dont treat her equal with me. If I treat her equal and act accordingly, I am called inconsiderate. Strange!!

On your second post, I have tried saying yes when she yelled she wanted to get divorced. She immediately got violent and started physically attacking me like anything. It was soo violent that to stop her, I had to hit back at her. I felt really bad after that though. But the situation was uncontrollable


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## greenpearl

Gladiator said:


> Greenpearl - Thanks for your comments.
> 
> I do agree with the points in your first post. But, if I treat her like a child, that too creates hell lot of problem saying I dont treat her equal with me. If I treat her equal and act accordingly, I am called inconsiderate. Strange!!
> 
> On your second post, I have tried saying yes when she yelled she wanted to get divorced. She immediately got violent and started physically attacking me like anything. It was soo violent that to stop her, I had to hit back at her. I felt really bad after that though. But the situation was uncontrollable



Gladiator
For some people who never examine themselves, no matter what you do, you are always wrong, and they are always right. She thinks that she is married to you, so she has the right to act like this. That is very stupid for people to think like this. A marriage certificate doesn't give people the right to own the other one, but they think like this. They think that you should provide them with happiness, but they don't know that happiness is in control of their hands. 

For some people, only they can belittle you, you can't refuse them. She threatens you with divorce, you say yes, she gets violent, that really says she can't take the failure. She doesn't want to lose face. I don't feel sorry for a person like this, unless she learns to change her attitude.

If I were you, from now on, I would plan for a divorce, don't say anything, let her act silly. Make sure I have my money, I would still provide for her because this is my responsibility. 
I won't fight with her, I wouldn't do anything to her. The crazier she acts, the less guilty I feel. Then one day, I just leave.............................
If she is able to become civil, then it is another story.....................


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## greenpearl

I had run away from a physical abusive man( he only lifted his fist at me, he didn't even get me, I turned my back to him right away) 

and a man who can't control his mouth. I endured this man for three years, because he had power over me. He got me into a university so I could study English there.(He was a professor in that university.) I endured, I studied very hard, I fought a little bit, but I knew the only way I could continue my education there was to keep quiet. I kept quiet......................
then one day I just disappeared in his life.............I left all of my clothes and books at his place, he tried to find me, he couldn't....................

I learned to speak English..............

I wasn't married to them, so it was easy for me.

Your situation is different, but please be calm and plan your future, you don't want to live with a woman like that forever, unless she changes.

For some people, they just don't deserve our kindness!!!


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## MidwestDave

Gladiator said:


> Highly short tempered and ultrasensitive to any kind of talking I do. I was completely scared to talk to her anything. Because, you never know how it would be perceived and interpreted by her. Her only intention during 'any' conversation was to find fault with what I do, what I talk, how I talk, etc. or end up accusing me of having insulted her.
> 
> [*]Very very adamant and arrogant. Never ever liked to get told anything. Even the most basic things in life and even if done very politely. Rather, she did not even like to do anything that I talk about. She always wanted to do the opposite of what I say.
> 
> I have stopped arguing with her these days. If she accuses me of anything, I keep quiet. That will also infuriate her that I am not feeling sorry or apologising. I would not have done anything wrong at all. It will all be her assumption.
> 
> The basic problem I understand is that she does not trust me. Not in the sense that I will have an affair. She trusts that I will not do that. At least thats what I think. I would also be very clear on this. I would not cheat her under any circumstances.
> 
> Another problem that I have noticed is that she assumes a lot of things. I would not have said anything like what she claims I did. But she will insist that I said that and start and arguments which will continue for a few days. I just keep quiet without knowing what to do. I am not sure how long I can survive like this.
> 
> Even though I want to save this Marriage, I just dunno what to do in this sitiation!!!


Other than the violent behavior, the thought process is EXACTLY like my wife. Unfortunately I have no good ideas for you, other than the counselor. But that only works if BOTH parties want to change something. In our case, we go to the counselor, my wife's only intent is to "change me" she has not the slightest interest in looking at herself or try to improve her behaviors, or to admit she has any fault of any sort. Her only fault is "how she reacts to my bad behavior", in other words, I'm the source of all the problems. It's a self esteem issue, her world falls apart if she admits she's not perfect (in the behavior area).

Finally, I concluded that we are basically incompatible. And, that leads to more and more resentment and unhappiness for both of us which comes out in worse and worse ways as we deal with our frustration. Both in the way we treat each other, and bad stuff like overeating, drinking, prescription drug use, mental/emotional deterioration, etc.

I don't know your age, but if there are no kids (or even if there are) if a counselor does not work, you must seriously think about making a plan for your future, without her.


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## MidwestDave

unbelievable said:


> This woman is a miserable person, not because you make her so, but because she prefers it that way and she doesn't know how to be anything else.


This is one of the truest things I have ever read. Sad, but true. Just like my wife! It's a form of masochism in one view, one who gets some unhealthy enjoyment from suffering and self-flagellation; but it is also a power game, a way to "win" through being able to manipulate someone else into suffering with them.


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## unbelievable

Nobody does anything repeatedly unless they get a reward. If she is continuously hostile to you, it's because you reward the behavior in some way. Maybe you let her drag you into a fight. Maybe you jump through flaming hoops for her, trying to make her happy again.
Tell her you won't tolerate or participate in uncivil, childish behavior. When she raises her voice, cusses, or throws things, walk away. Take a drive. Let her connect her pushiness with abandonment. Teach her that if she wants to talk to you, she will talk as a rational, civil, adult. If she hits you, call the police. They get paid to deal with violence. If she threatens suicide, call 9-11. EMS gets paid to deal with crazy. Nobody can repeatedly do anything to you that you don't allow.


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## Gladiator

Greenpearl, MidwestDave & Unbelieveable - Thanks for your thoughts & suggestions.

May be I will have to plan my exit from this relationship. Thats how it looks. Today morning was another terrible day with a bad fight and several bruises to my body. It is getting unmanageable. She is constantly craving for attention and behaves "Me,Me,Me.. My,My,My.. Mine,MIne,Mine". This kind of behaviour is sending me crazy.. 

Luckily I dont have kids yet. I did not want to have any from the very beginning since her behaviour was not normal. I guess that is something that will be of help... Some kind of solace in adversity !! 

I can call 911 or the police. But, I may end up being the accused when they arrive. If she starts crying in front of them and acts weirdly, I might be taken to task for no mistake of mine.

If I go for divorce, I would be in the losing end from monetary point of view. Also, I dont have any evidence of all the ill treatments I am going through. Not sure if it will help though.

One thing I will do from next time on is to stop feeding her ego by reacting to whatever she does.

If I go through the divorce process, what kind of behaviour should I expect from her? Or, how should I tell her that I wanna leave her?


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## unbelievable

You're the one with the bruises, besides, Cops generally can recognize a psycho. What kind of behavior should you expect if you file for divorce? I think you already know that. Expect the very worst and plan accordingly. As far as your money goes, what is your peace of mind worth and self respect worth? I bet it'd be the best investment you ever made.


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## greenpearl

Gladiator said:


> Greenpearl, MidwestDave & Unbelieveable - Thanks for your thoughts & suggestions.
> 
> May be I will have to plan my exit from this relationship. Thats how it looks. Today morning was another terrible day with a bad fight and several bruises to my body. It is getting unmanageable. She is constantly craving for attention and behaves "Me,Me,Me.. My,My,My.. Mine,MIne,Mine". This kind of behaviour is sending me crazy..
> 
> Luckily I dont have kids yet. I did not want to have any from the very beginning since her behaviour was not normal. I guess that is something that will be of help... Some kind of solace in adversity !!
> 
> I can call 911 or the police. But, I may end up being the accused when they arrive. If she starts crying in front of them and acts weirdly, I might be taken to task for no mistake of mine.
> 
> If I go for divorce, I would be in the losing end from monetary point of view. Also, I dont have any evidence of all the ill treatments I am going through. Not sure if it will help though.
> 
> One thing I will do from next time on is to stop feeding her ego by reacting to whatever she does.
> 
> If I go through the divorce process, what kind of behaviour should I expect from her? Or, how should I tell her that I wanna leave her?


Since she is so crazy, maybe just go to a lawyer first. Make sure you have your cash first, then go to the court for the house. Some people are not reasonable when they face failures. Stay away from her and let your lawyer deal with her. 
If money involved isn't much, just give it to her. Your happy future life is much more important than all the fighting and bad feeling you have to go through with her. 

She'll crash and curse you and try to hurt you when you tell her you want to leave. Please be careful. Your safety is important. You know what kind of woman she is. Will she try to hurt you physically if you leave? If she will, you move to a different place and tell her you can't tolerate her anymore and you want to end, all through phone calls, then let your lawyer deal with her.


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## Uptown

Gladiator, the behavior you are describing is that of a woman who suffers from strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. BPD is usually accompanied by another personality disorder or depression. She thus may also be exhibiting strong traits of NPD (Narcissistic PD). Significantly, in saying that your W sounds like a "BPDer" I am saying that she exhibits strong BPD traits. I am not saying she "has BPD." Only a professional can determine whether her traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria. Because all of us have the nine BPD traits (albeit, at a low level if we are healthy), it is easy to spot a strong pattern of such traits in a woman you have been living with for two years. To do so, you only have to read about them so you know what to look for.


> She is constantly craving for attention and behaves "Me,Me,Me.. My,My,My.. Mine,MIne,Mine".


BPDers typically are self centered and very clingy. One reason is that their emotional development became frozen at about four years of age. Another reason is that they hate to be alone by themselves and are very afraid of abandonment. Sometimes that fear can be hard to recognize when a BPDer is frequently threatening you with divorce. In that case, the fear likely is so great that she wants to preemptively abandon you first. Or she could have permanently split you black (more about splitting below).


> if I treat her like a child, that too creates hell lot of problem saying I dont treat her equal with me. If I treat her equal and act accordingly, I am called inconsiderate. Strange!!


For a BPDer, that is predictable behavior, not strange. Due to their arrested emotional development, BPDers only have the primitive emotional defenses of a child to protect themselves. This is largely why you see your W giving irrational explanations for what she has done. As Greenpearl explained, your W is throwing temper tantrums just like a young child does. Reasoning with her is impossible while she is upset. Moreover, any attempt to discuss something with her will get her upset within a few seconds. Hence, you likely will never be able to have any sort of rational negotiation or compromise with her during your lifetime. I never was able to do so with my exW. Not once in 15 years.


> This kind of behavior is sending me crazy.


It is common for partners and spouses of BPDers to think they are going crazy. It is very disorienting living with an unstable woman because she can flip -- in ten seconds -- from loving you to hating you. Moreover, her emotions are so intense that she regards them as facts, which leads to the nonsense explanations coming out of her mouth. The Nons (nonBPD exPartners) refer to this attempt at rationalization as "gaslighting." It is named after the classic 1944 movie, Gaslight, wherein the H tries to drive his wife crazy so he can have her committed and then run off with her family jewels.


> It was so violent that to stop her, I had to hit back at her. I felt really bad after that though. But the situation was uncontrollable


As long as you continue to live with a woman that unstable and violent, you are at great risk of being arrested (if not hurt or killed). My exW would chase me from room to room until I would push her away from me in frustration. When she tripped and fell backwards, she called the police and had me thrown in jail for "brutalizing" her. Keep in mind that, no matter how "out of control" you W appears during a tantrum, she can switch to calm coolness in a few seconds when she knows that the police have arrived. BPDers are excellent actors because, lacking a stable sense of who they are, they were forced to start acting in childhood to survive.


> The basic problem I understand is that she does not trust me.


You are correct that she cannot trust you. More accurately, she is incapable of trusting anyone because her ability to trust probably was destroyed in childhood. IMO, however, that is not the "basic problem." Rather, it likely is her having no stable sense of who she is and her being unable to control her emotions because she is emotionally stunted at age four.


> She does not like me calling and talking to my Mom. She does not want to meet any of my friends.


Because BPDers are unable to trust and are terrified of abandonment, they try to control every aspect of a spouse's life so as to avoid losing him. Significantly, controlling a person is difficult if he has strong support from friends and family who will tell him "That is outrageous." So BPDers typically will try to isolate you from all friends and family. My exW, for example, started doing that from day one and she hated my foster son.


> I would not have said anything like what she claims I did. But she will insist that I said that and start and arguments which will continue for a few days.


It is common for BPDers to rewrite history, claiming you did or said something. Most of the time they may actually believe the allegation because they are projecting their thought onto you or are reacting to an intense feeling that convinces them it must be true. For a more detailed explanation of this and of why BPDers do splitting (i.e., all-or-nothing thinking), please see some of my posts in LVS's thread. They start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...8-years-marriage-what-ca-i-do.html#post142257. Like you, LVS moved to this country (United States) with her H and found herself being severely verbally abused. If you have questions about anything I said, Gladiator, I would be happy to discuss them with you -- or to suggest good articles on BPD and NPD that are available free online. Take care.


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## Gladiator

Uptown - Thanks a ton. That looks more like it. I will do more research on BPD and NPD.

But, one thing that is always confusing me is - She praises about me to her parents and friends for nothing. I dont see a reason why she does that. It will be completely unwanted. But she projects me well to others. That really confuses me!


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## Uptown

Gladiator said:


> One thing that is always confusing me is - She praises about me to her parents and friends for nothing. I dont see a reason why she does that.


To the extent she suffers from strong BPD traits, she typically would flip from splitting you white (i.e., adoring you) to splitting you black (i.e., hating or devaluing you). And, because BPDers are very reactive to their environment, I would expect her to bad mouth you to her parents/friends whenever she is splitting you black. That is, I agree with your expectation. Yet, because she seems to also have some strong traits of NPD, I would expect her to keep up her image of having a successful H to friends and family -- right up to the point she decides to divorce you.

At issue, then, is whether her NPD traits are stronger than her BPD traits. You have not revealed enough information to cast much light on that. I am hopeful you will figure it out on your own -- which is why I mentioned both -- and is one reason I referred you to my posts in LVS's thread, given that her H exhibits traits of both. The primary differences between the two is that, whereas BPDers are _unstable_ and _caring_, NPDers are the opposite of those two things. They are stable and uncaring (i.e., they lack empathy even though they may pretend to be caring).


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## unbelievable

Gladiator. Perhaps she praises you to her family because her family knows only too well that she's nuts. They fully expect her to have an unhappy marriage because they have lived with her and know it's no picinic. Your wife probably praises you in the presence of her family because she wants to give them the illusion that she is capable of acting like a human being and having a normal adult relationship. It's her way of saying, "See, I'm all better now. I wasn't the problem. Y'all were."


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## 4sure

She sounds like she has a mental disorder. It's way out of control, and she needs professional help. If you want to help her seek professional help. 
She praises you because she wants all to think she has it going on.
I wish you all the best in whatever decision you make.


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## friendly

Reasons Why A Man Should Dump An Abusive Wife Or Girlfriend :


Your life may be in danger.

You can be hurt or killed.

You can be falsely accused and arrested.

What you value might get destroyed.


Recognize the signs of an abusive girlfriend/wife and leave before it's too late.


The police and social workers are gender-biased.


They claim no woman has ever abused a man even once in the history of mankind.


That is a lie.

There are lots of abusive women out there and they get away with their behavior far more than abusive men do.


So learn to protect yourself.


If your girlfriend or wife hits you, berates you or constantly criticizes you in a negative way, she's abusive.


Leave her, or end up at the morgue, county jail or hospital.


You may only get one chance.


You may seek help from The Domestic Abuse Helpline For Men And Women.


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## friendly

You don't want to become one of the victims in Texas

Stories Of Abused Men In Texas


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## unbelievable

I lock up plenty of women for domestic violence. Don't mind tazing one, either. Another good reason to leave a violent partner: Life is too short to spend miserable. You could get hit by a bus next year. You want your last months on earth to be spent in misery? Every day you spend in unhappiness is 24 hrs you could spend giving and receiving love, having legendary sex, being treated with respect, liking who you are. What finally pushed me to get out was two things...9/11 and a fellow police pfficer's murder. Life is short and uncertain. God didn't create anyone to be walked on, pushed down, belittled, punched, kicked, or demeaned. We've all been given the gift of life and someday we're going to have to account for how we spend it.


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## friendly

unbelievable said:


> I lock up plenty of women for domestic violence. Don't mind tazing one, either. Another good reason to leave a violent partner: Life is too short to spend miserable. You could get hit by a bus next year. You want your last months on earth to be spent in misery? Every day you spend in unhappiness is 24 hrs you could spend giving and receiving love, having legendary sex, being treated with respect, liking who you are. What finally pushed me to get out was two things...9/11 and a fellow police pfficer's murder. Life is short and uncertain. God didn't create anyone to be walked on, pushed down, belittled, punched, kicked, or demeaned. We've all been given the gift of life and someday we're going to have to account for how we spend it.


I agree with my whole heart!
Allow me to paste a tearful comment that a reader of my thread has posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## friendly

No, it's true. I'm a Texan and my wife hacked off my nuts and made a coin purse out of the sack. I need to ask her how many quarters it holds. A Friend of mine hid in the shed for four days, before his mother in law caught him by an ankle and dragged him back to the house. What she and her daughter did to him has always been an intriguing mystery to me, because none of them will talk about it. Then there is bowlegged Bob, from the job. He was born with the need for bowed legs, but he tells me it's out of habit now. I could go on and on about it, but I think you can all see how it is here in the state of steers and steers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gladiator

We had a bad showdown and argument more than 4 days back. Since then we have not spoek n to each other even a single word and not looked at each one's face/eyes in the last 110+ hours. To top it all, we live ion the same house. Its been terrible. I am too afraid to start a conversation. Never know how it will be construed. Also, too bad to see this 'silence war' going for days together!!!


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## turnera

It sounds to me like you two were forced to marry? I just see no reason to carry it on. Divorce and find someone you have something in common with.


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## Gladiator

Interestingly, during the last 4-5 days, she has made sure that she cooked proper food (breakfast, lunch and dinner) for me. This is better than even the non-fight days. I just dont get why she does this?


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## turnera

We need more details before we can help you.


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## unbelievable

Make sure she eats the food first. If you're not used to peace and quiet or eating decent meals, the change probably would feel uncomfortable. Sounds like she took at least some of what you said seriously. Good for you!


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## turnera

unbelievable said:


> Make sure she eats the food first.


lol


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## cb45

is that sarcastic lol due to having to "resist" what unbelievable implies, turnera?

ever so curious.....cb45


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## turnera

No, I just think it's funny that ub is warning him to have a food tester.


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## Gladiator

I ve been doing more thinking about the details that I need to provide to get more help.. And here we go...

She thinks she made a very impulsive decision to marry me.. She has admitted that several times to me.. All along I always thought she was just joking or making fun.. I did not want to believe she really felt that. May be she actually did all these days. 

Also, she has told me that she did not have much attention from her parents during childhood. Both of them were working and she got very little time to spend with them together.

She was at one point madly in love with me during the first few days of marriage may be (thats what she claims now) and when we had a couple of arguments (I dont remember them), she turned completely against me and has not changed her opinion about me since then.

I will keyin more points as they come along...


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## unbelievable

Gladiator,

I'm sure she doesn't believe she received enough attention as a child. She probably still doesn't believe she's getting enough attention. If you displayed her on Times Square, adorned with Christmas lights, that wouldn't be enough attention to suit her, either. 
She was madly in love with you but after two arguments became your mortal enemy? I'm not sure what one calls that, but I'll bet it's a very long word and that mental asylums and prisons are full of them.


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## Gladiator

To add more content, I have also been accused of being manipulative. She would quote certain conversations happened months back and perceive a meaning to it and say that I meant what she actually believed I meant. At this stage there will be no scope for any kind of discussion. It is clear, I am wrong and I made that so called 'hurtful' remark!!!


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## Gladiator

Another key point to note is, she often competes with me! This is something that has confused me several times. I have seen severe competition between 2 guys or 2 girls. I am terribly confused why she would do that 'competition' thing with me. If I do something good, she would either not appreciate me or try to prove that I was wrong or try to do something to show that she can do it better!! I just dont understand this at all...


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## Uptown

unbelievable said:


> She was madly in love with you but after two arguments became your mortal enemy? I'm not sure what one calls that....


It's called "splitting," as I discussed above. A person with strong BPD traits can flip in ten seconds from adoring you to hating or devaluing you. Splitting is a primitive defense mechanism that we used all day long as young children and continue to use occassionally as adults. BPDers draw on it far more frequently and intensely.


Gladiator said:


> Another key point to note is, she often competes with me! This is something that has confused me several times. ... If I do something good, she would either not appreciate me or try to prove that I was wrong or try to do something to show that she can do it better!! I just dont understand this at all...


A BPDer grows up feeling ashamed of herself, hating herself, and not really knowing who she is. She therefore does not have sufficient ego strength to admit doing things wrong or not knowing things. Consequently, it is typical of a BPDer to blame everything on you and refuse to accept responsibility for her own actions. In those instances when she does appear to apologize for something, do not be surprised if she takes it back the next week -- if not the next day. On top of that, she has a strong need to control your life due to her fear of abandonment. This likely is why she is very controlling, insists you are wrong, and blames you for every mishap. Moreover, as I explained above, she needs to perceive you as a "perpetrator" to support her mistaken notion that she is a perpetual victim. These distortions in how she views your motivations and intentions are the reason BPD is called a "thought disorder."


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## Frost

As Uptown stated, this woman simply screams BPD! The only real defense you have is to set very hard limits with her and be able to follow through. 

What this basically means is when she begins acting irrational tell her that you will not continue the conversation and walk away. Then do it. Do not speak to her again until she can talk to you calmly. 

If she gets upset and violent tell her you will leave and walk out the door and then leave for a few days (stay gone longer each time).

This will definitely make her go berserk and she will test your tolerance and strength to get you to break your resolve and give her back control, but if you can withstand this she will learn from it.
This works because the abandonment issues are so strong, and she will begin to see this as a consequence of her behaviour. 

Again...I have to warn you she will do about anything to break your resolve. Screaming, verbal abuse, humiliation, destruction of your property, attempts of violence, etc. Unless you are determined to work through this behavior and establish these limits it will never change.

A couple of decent books are out there. I cannot remember the authors, but try searching for "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!" or "Stop Walking on Eggshells" as titles.


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## Capital P

Gladiator, just like Midwestdave, your wife's relational techniques and thought patterns sound scarily similar to mine - except for the violence, which as you described, must be hell. In what I am about to write, I am in no way disagreeing with the other posters that your wife has major issues that you are not responsible for.

One thing that jumped out at me in your first paragraph was the two months you knew each other before you got married. I proposed to my wife after we'd been going out for six months, and have regretted 'jumping too soon' ever since. I thought she was ready, but noooo waaaay. 

Anyway, my point is that the quickness of our engagement is at the source of a lot of her issues with me regarding trust, turning my words against me, the black-and-white approach to life, putting herself in competition against me, etc. Or, at least, she uses the quickness of our engagement as an excuse to act the way she does.

Your wife may well have felt trapped by the speed at which you got married, but her emotional immaturity prevented her from expressing this at the time. A black-and-white thinker will continue to exhibit all the communication signs that everything is "great, perfect, wonderful" until they either hit their anger threshold or get to a point where they feel in control then switch to "it's always been terrible but YOU wouldn't let me say". This switch point is often (especially for my wife) when an event such as the wedding happens that can't be taken back, then they can go over and over how terrible it all was and it was your fault that it was so bad - the point being that you can't do anything about it anymore, therefore rendering you powerless.

She is in a powerful position in regards to you and she knows it. She knows that she can 'blame' you for being married, and she is acting out of how terrible she thinks this is, to try to get you to take that blame. Don't. She also knows that if you leave because of her behaviour, you will be to blame because you will be the one leaving. She will likely then switch to being saying things like "well I was the righteous one who wanted the marriage to work", etc, etc - I think this is why she is placing you in such a good light to her family, so if you leave her, she can say to them that she only ever treated you well and said good things about you. As hard as it is, you must recognise these tactics for what they are. 

She wants control, and will never stop until she deals with her underlying issues. At the moment, her method of gaining control includes violence. That is intolerable. Let her know that. Your safety is foremost.


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## MIMO

Wow,

I was surfing the net for the same reason Gladiator mention in the topic. For instant I thought it was me Gladiator and that's me who living this sh.. life. My add on the top in the misery that we have a kid 

Well, the same story. She is often angry, always unhappy and never satisfied. One single word can trigger a war so she starts cussing, cursing, showing fingers, yelling, and all the circus... It is really a hell life.

Just repeating what Gladiator was saying. It looks like we are in the same boat. She is very jealous and feels extremely unsecured.

Let me resume so I go in the topic step by step. Last fight everything was perfect, she was extremely nice. I was talking with her on the phone and she didn't like something I said so she started like a crazy and request me to apologize. I did but it is not enough. I really didn't say anything that wrong.

She came back home, angry, red like a flame and start cussing. I told her: not in front of the kid. I was holding him. She said the F word for me and him and that she doesn't care. Start fighting, hitting, bad words... cussing me, my parents, the moment she met me... everything... I wasn't able to control myself so I tried to hold her hands back from me. She said: if you do that again, I will shoot you or kill you... Well, I tried to leave the house, she ran after me... I told her: let me go for some fresh air but she refused.... Control!!! It is all about control Gladiator... What she needs and expects? That you go down on your knees and tell her that is your fault and that you are really really sorry and that you will never do it again... Even if you didn't do nothing.. Hey look, don't do that!!! I already did this mistake... When the bill is due she will tell you that you always was mistaken (as you admit often) and that she never did any mistake... another slap to your face...
So, now, since Saturday we don't talk! we live in the same house, no eyes' contact, no words ... nothing... Believe me Gladiator it is the only week I live in peace :smthumbup:
See, before, I could not watch TV, touch PC, write / read emails, couldn't cut the Grass (because it involves going outside, accidentally seeing a female(no matter what age)).... I thought that I am alone in this but here we are....

I don't know what to do next and I don't know what will happen next. All what I am thinking about is my son and how I'll make him a good life. How to save mine without affecting his? She will not respond to any advice. She is the perfect person in this land. She is the total knowledge and the source of smartness... You know what is funny? came to my mind now. She changed my name on her Cellphone to "a s s hole"  it made me angry a little to see that but it shows the deep stupidity...

Digging back in her history, her father and mother are separated. They don't talk to each other long time ago. She used to live with her mom and her Father lives very far from them. Maybe that's why she counts me as an enemy because I am a man... Many times she mentions something like that. 

Trust me Gladiator and everybody reading this post. Not all women are like that. I've seen in my life some really good wives and really it is a wise sentence: you can't make people happy. People decide to be happy or miserable.

I'll check back this forum and will keep you updated with my tragedy.

I wish you good luck Gladiator.


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## turnera

Mimo, get some professional help for this before something happens.


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## MIMO

Where to get a professional help? The only help we used to get is from parents and what her parents always does is to be on her side 80% on on my side 20% only.
I am really starting to expect something to happen. Like divorce... All what I care about in all this is my son


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## turnera

Well, you could start with a marriage counselor, and if she won't go, an individual counselor for yourself, who could point you to better solutions. Your wife needs help.


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## MIMO

I agree to go to a counselor. If somebody says that I have something to change, I'd really do! but with the experience, we have that she never admit that she was mistaken and she always claim that she is perfect... I really don't know how to deal with that. Many times I have to apologize for something she did and not me.... Can you imagine?

Another thing, don't you think that I am a bad husband... I do almost everything from taking care of the baby (dippers, night awake, prepare to bed, bath every morning...) I do the dishes, I do the cloth wash... all that beside my job and she is not satisfied! By the way, she is not working for the moment. So she almost has nothing to do... But always feels tired and miserable....

I don't know how to make somebody happy if this somebody doesn't want to be happy. You see, she is like a volcano, anything would trigger her so she starts all the war....

I'm really lost.

From the other side, there is some benefits! I focus more on my job and I stay longer after work because I don't want to go back home . It's my philosophy in life, always try to find a bright side. After all the cup is half full! (She sees it half empty or better say: almost empty).


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## Mom6547

Gladiator, I have not read every last post on this thread. But I want to suggest you learn about spousal abuse. The attempts at separating from your support network, the verbal abuse, the fear the physical stuff. You HAVE to know that domestic violence is not only perpetrated by men against women but the other way around as well. And I am seeing textbook symptoms here.

The nice words she uses about you to her family are her hiding her true self from them.

While you are busy trying to make her happy until she stops, she is busy having mental health issues that prevent her from stopping. 

The other sad truth is that much more support is available for women than for men. The law has never been a great place to go for help or support for men or women, but even less for men.

This is not really about you. She has to break down your self esteem to maintain what she needs. Control. But if you can find your self esteem and stand for yourself, you can get out. I don't hold any hope that you can save this "marriage." But you can get out. 

If you think that because you are bigger than you that she cannot do permanent damage to you, kill you, you are wrong. I don't know what stage of escalation you guys are at. But do not make the mistake of thinking you are ok because you are bigger than she is. 

Please find help. Find local shelters or support groups. Reconnect with friends who can remind you of the great guy you are. (Have a secret bank account and squirrel away every penny you can.) 

Good luck.

S


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## turnera

Mimo, this is about boundaries. You and I both know that she will NEVER be satisfied. Never. Which means YOU will never be happy because she'll have you chasing rainbows your whole life trying to please her, and it'll never work. 

Therefore, what to do? Change YOURSELF.

You STOP trying to please her all the time. You TELL her what you will and won't do in such situations. You set boundaries, and you STICK to them. 

And if she wants anything else...she WILL go to counseling. Period.


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## MIMO

Turnera, thank you for your reply.

Yesterday I broke the silence wall and we had a talk. Well, nothing good at all  Really... She surprised me and was hurting deep... She has her own version of our relationship and our life till now. She sees everything different and she assumes all what I did and do in her way...

I really don't know what to do or say...

She only remember the promises I made to her when we first met and she requires in-detail execution... It is the same when a guy told his beloved one that he will wrap her the moon and give it to her as gift on a plate and she is waiting for this promise to be done... She is a kind of people that so by the code! that you told me that? You need to do that!!!! You know, in this thing she was smarter than me! she made me say whatever what she wants so she can use them against me one day...

What conclusion after all the yesterday talk is: I was nothing before she met me and she is building me up. That I have to not look to any other woman (even I am not doing) and again: I can't watch TV, can't watch movies .... and only can't can't can't.... And I have to provide a list with all my logins and passwords...

In back what? I have to start to be nice to her so she will (maybe) treat me nice back. She admits that she MAY have something to change but again comparing to me I have A LOT to change... Man she is a brain manipulator... All the night she was trying to make me believe that it's me who is ruining this marriage and that I have to suffer for destroying our son's life....

My life sucks.....

I don't know if anybody can advice...


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## Uptown

MIMO, it sounds like your W suffers from strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), as Gladiator's W seems to have too. If so, I believe you will find it easy to recognize the traits if you read about them to learn what to look for. Understanding the traits is important because it will enable you to see where her fog of confusing and controlling behaviors is coming from. On the first page of this thread, basic BPD behavior is described in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...nhappy-violent-depressed-wife.html#post186216. This behavior also is described in my post in EagleClaw's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...urker-typical-wife-problems-2.html#post186699.


MIMO said:


> She has her own version of our relationship and our life till now. She sees everything different and she assumes all what I did and do in her way...


If your W has strong BPD traits, she likely does all-or-nothing thinking most of the time. This black-white way of looking at peoples' actions distorts her perceptions of their motivations and intentions because everyone is gray, not black or white. That is, her need to categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" seriously impairs her judgment about people. This is why BPD is called a "thought disorder." (She nonetheless may be highly intelligent and highly skilled in her profession.)


> She only remember the promises I made to her when we first met and she requires in-detail execution...


BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits) have the emotional development of a 3 or 4 year old child -- the age at which they experienced severe emotional trauma that (together with heredity) caused their emotional development to freeze. The result is that a BPDer is unable to effectively regulate her emotions, allowing the feelings to become so intense that she believes her feelings "must be true." This is exactly how a four year old reacts when you tell her that a power outage means she cannot watch the favorite TV show you promised her. A child of that age expects you to deliver, no matter what. Your W has similar expectations. No, it is not _rational_ but, if you start to understand how she thinks -- how YOU thought when you were four -- you will see that it _makes sense _in light of her arrested development.


> What conclusion after all the yesterday talk is: I was nothing before she met me and she is building me up.


Nobody is better at explaining this controlling behavior than Turnera. She has written numerous posts describing how abusive people (e.g., her H) try to tear down their spouses in order to maintain strict control over their behavior. This dysfunctional need for control over their spouses is rooted in their strong fear of abandonment, a fear that originated in early childhood (when their emotional development was arrested).


> I have to not look to any other woman .... I can't watch TV, can't watch movies .... and only can't can't can't.... And I have to provide a list with all my logins and passwords...


A BPDer's ability to trust was destroyed in early childhood. This is why it is impossible to convince her that you really love her. My exW, for example, was jealous of time I spent with my friends and family. And she was extremely sensitive as to whether I looked at another woman for a fraction of a second longer than she thought I should.


> Man she is a brain manipulator... All the night she was trying to make me believe that it's me who is ruining this marriage and that I have to suffer for destroying our son's life....


BPDers often try to be manipulative but, because they are so reactive to what is happening around them, they usually are terrible at "manipulation," which requires advanced planning and flawless execution. I therefore prefer to describe this behavior as "controlling," not "manipulating."

In any event, a BPDer W will blame you for everything that goes wrong -- a process called "projection." Because projection achieves its goal (ridding herself of guilt) only if it is done subconsciously, her conscious mind really believes the allegations are true much of the time. This is why she can say such outrageous things that you marvel an adult woman is able to say them while keeping a straight face at the same time. On top of that, there will be lies. Trying to distinguish all the lies from all the projected allegations would drive a person crazy.


> My life sucks.....I don't know if anybody can advise...


Turnera can. Indeed, she gave you excellent advice with which to start, "_Change YOURSELF. You STOP trying to please her all the time. You TELL her what you will and won't do in such situations. You set boundaries, and you STICK to them. And if she wants anything else...she WILL go to counseling. Period._" 

Like Turnera and me, you almost certainly have a caregiver type personality with strong aspects of "codependence." Yes, it is a badly named term. I realize that, in all other respects, you likely are fiercely _independent_. Most "codependents" are. Indeed, a typical codependent will be working a full-time job, taking care of three kids and five dogs, and still find time to go out looking for a spouse to take care of too. Our problem is that our desire to be _needed_ (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the people we already are). The end result is that you are the glue holding your marriage together (your W is too unstable to accomplish that). 

If you would like more information about BPDer or codependent behavior, I would be glad to discuss it further or suggest articles -- or point you to an excellent BPD website targeted to the codependent partners like you and me. Meanwhile, MIMO, for a brief overview, please check out my posts at the two links above.


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## turnera

Yes, DO educate yourself on BPD, so you'll see what she is doing and understand it.

BUT...you will NEVER change her. She will NEVER be the wife you wish you had. Never.

So...what CAN you do?

You can protect yourself. Either by leaving her and finding a healty wife, or be resigning yourself to the wife you do have and setting VERY STRONG protections in place.

I just had a fight with my business partner today, who is BPD. Every time she is confronted, she turns it around to something like "You think I'm not classy? You think I don't know what looks good?"

I had said nothing of the sort, but she twists what we say around so that she can regain CONTROL. Put us on the defensive. It works on my husband, but not me. So I just called her out on it, TOLD her to quit twisting words around, I would not discuss it with her if she continued. She finally gave up.

Why? 

_Because I refused to play the game HER WAY._

All you can do is refuse to play the game HER WAY.


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## Capital P

Uptown said:


> ... If your W has strong BPD traits, she likely does all-or-nothing thinking most of the time. This black-white way of looking at peoples' actions distorts her perceptions of their motivations and intentions because everyone is gray, not black or white. That is, her need to categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" seriously impairs her judgment about people. This is why BPD is called a "thought disorder." (She nonetheless may be highly intelligent and highly skilled in her profession.) BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits) have the emotional development of a 3 or 4 year old child -- the age at which they experienced severe emotional trauma that (together with heredity) caused their emotional development to freeze. The result is that a BPDer is unable to effectively regulate her emotions, allowing the feelings to become so intense that she believes her feelings "must be true." This is exactly how a four year old reacts...
> 
> ....strong fear of abandonment, a fear that originated in early childhood (when their emotional development was arrested).A BPDer's ability to trust was destroyed in early childhood. This is why it is impossible to convince her that you really love her.
> 
> ...her conscious mind really believes the allegations are true much of the time. This is why she can say such outrageous things that you marvel an adult woman is able to say them while keeping a straight face at the same time. ...


Wow. Five words: My-wife-in-a-nutshell. Her parents divorced when she was 3 1/2. In light of your post, that is extremely enlightening.


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## Uptown

> Wow. Five words: My-wife-in-a-nutshell. Her parents divorced when she was 3 1/2. In light of your post, that is extremely enlightening.


Cap P, I'm glad to hear that you found the information helpful. You give me too much credit, however, for the way I describe your W's all-or-nothing thinking. Back in June, you described it so well on your own:


> I realized a long time ago that this is a disguise to hide a desperately insecure little girl away inside. This has led to a very polarized view on the world, where everything is either perfect or evil. This means she lives a life of torment trying to be perfect in every way, because admitting that she's not perfect could only mean being that insecure little girl that she so wants to believe she's not (6/23 post).


What you call her "polarized view" is the same thing I am calling black-white (i.e., dichotomous) thinking. Moreover, you recognize that, as hard as that type of thinking is on you, she is far harder on herself -- demanding perfection. This would explain, then, why she is so rigid in her thinking and so uncompromising. 

As you suspect, she likely experienced damage to her emotional core when she was three and thus failed to learn what the rest of us did at that age: how to integrate the various conflicting aspects of her personality (both good and bad) into a unified self image. She therefore has been hindered all her life with the predicament that, if she is not "all good," she must necessarily be "all bad." And maintaining the fiction that she is all good has been an impossible task. 

One way of avoiding that dilemma is to use you as a dumping ground or trash can. She accomplishes that by using a primitive emotional defense called "projection." Whereas healthier children were able to largely replace the childish defenses with more mature defenses, your W likely did not have the luxury of being able to do that because she was struggling with trauma at that time. In any event, projection works to absolve her of all guilt because it occurs subconsciously, permitting her to actually believe the outrageous things she attributes to you (but which actually originate in her own mind).

Incidentally, did you follow my two links to my discussion of BPD behavior? I ask because your W's behavior often results from having strong BPD traits. That is, the inability to form a stable strong sense of who she is typically results in a feeling of emptiness and not being sure who she is. This insecurity is usually covered up by acting, which makes one feel like she is a fake who is always at risk of being found out. This seems consistent with behavior you so articulately describe, i.e., her being unwilling to make herself vulnerable -- instead holding back and condemning you as you try one "failed" approach after another until you stumble across the approach she favors. 

In that way, she does not have to defend her preference with a rational explanation. She is not good at rational defenses because she is so driven by intense emotions that she is convinced her feelings must be true. For her, then, feelings constitute facts. Does that seem strange? It shouldn't. It has happened to you and me so many thousands of times -- every time we get angry or irritable -- that we long ago learned not to trust our feelings, which is why we usually keep our mouths shut when we are in those moods. With folks who do all-or-nothing thinking, however, they are so fearful of being proven wrong that they rarely challenge the truthfullness of their own feelings.

Because there is little or no rational basis for your W's intense emotions, she has nothing but those strong feelings -- beliefs actually -- to back up her actions and decisions. It therefore is not surprising that she often retreats in desperation to the Bible to justify commonplace decisions, thereby substituting one set of beliefs (i.e., scripture that has authority and can be bent to support nearly anything) for another (i.e., her own feelings which lack authority).


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## Capital P

Uptown said:


> Cap P, I'm glad to hear that you found the information helpful. You give me too much credit, however, for the way I describe your W's all-or-nothing thinking. Back in June, you described it so well on your own:


Haha, you got me - but I guess what I was saying was that to see it written so precisely by an independent writer made it hit home so much more. It's kind of like the difference between having a sore arm with an extra elbow, and being told by a doctor with an x-ray that your arm's broken - although that example might be a bit too gory.



Uptown said:


> What you call her "polarized view" is the same thing I am calling black-white (i.e., dichotomous) thinking. Moreover, you recognize that, as hard as that type of thinking is on you, she is far harder on herself -- demanding perfection. This would explain, then, why she is so rigid in her thinking and so uncompromising.
> 
> As you suspect, she likely experienced damage to her emotional core when she was three and thus failed to learn what the rest of us did at that age: how to integrate the various conflicting aspects of her personality (both good and bad) into a unified self image. She therefore has been hindered all her life with the predicament that, if she is not "all good," she must necessarily be "all bad." And maintaining the fiction that she is all good has been an impossible task.
> 
> One way of avoiding that dilemma is to use you as a dumping ground or trash can. She accomplishes that by using a primitive emotional defense called "projection." Whereas healthier children were able to largely replace the childish defenses with more mature defenses, your W likely did not have the luxury of being able to do that because she was struggling with trauma at that time. In any event, projection works to absolve her of all guilt because it occurs subconsciously, permitting her to actually believe the outrageous things she attributes to you (but which actually originate in her own mind).
> 
> Incidentally, did you follow my two links to my discussion of BPD behavior?


I did, and this paragraph whacked me like a sledgehammer:



Uptown said:


> And they may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as they watch their good looks fade away. So it is common, a therapist said, for BPDers to abandon the spouse at about 15 years. At that point, they split him black permanently.


That paragraph fits eerily well. My wife's mother left her father after 16 years of marriage, and this has always been a mystery to her. There are so many secrets in her family history, whereas mine (to our detriment often) is an open book.



Uptown said:


> I ask because your W's behavior often results from having strong BPD traits. That is, the inability to form a stable strong sense of who she is typically results in a feeling of emptiness and not being sure who she is. This insecurity is usually covered up by acting, which makes one feel like she is a fake who is always at risk of being found out. This seems consistent with behavior you so articulately describe, i.e., her being unwilling to make herself vulnerable -- instead holding back and condemning you as you try one "failed" approach after another until you stumble across the approach she favors.
> 
> In that way, she does not have to defend her preference with a rational explanation. She is not good at rational defenses because she is so driven by intense emotions that she is convinced her feelings must be true. For her, then, feelings constitute facts. Does that seem strange? It shouldn't. It has happened to you and me so many thousands of times -- every time we get angry or irritable -- that we long ago learned not to trust our feelings, which is why we usually keep our mouths shut when we are in those moods. With folks who do all-or-nothing thinking, however, they are so fearful of being proven wrong that they rarely challenge the truthfullness of their own feelings.
> 
> Because there is little or no rational basis for your W's intense emotions, she has nothing but those strong feelings -- beliefs actually -- to back up her actions and decisions. It therefore is not surprising that she often retreats in desperation to the Bible to justify commonplace decisions, thereby substituting one set of beliefs (i.e., scripture that has authority and can be bent to support nearly anything) for another (i.e., her own feelings which lack authority).


Yep, :iagree: completely. Thanks for your expertise Uptown.


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## MIMO

Well, Turnera and Uptown: It looks like you are professionals. Everything what you said was 100% right!!

Turnera: I had a good use for your advice in the latest but not last fight. She started "as usual" turning things around to put me in defensive place but I kept saying NO! It's not our subject now. we are discussing this point so we don't open other topics yet. And it worked! She calmed down and gave up (first time so far).

Uptown: You are right with your diagnosis. I checked on the internet for more information and it is really her case. I am trying to get more educated about that and taking notes to know how to deal with her.

She had bad experience in her family (separated parents) I don't want pass that to my son. He is for nothing... He needs me too much (sometimes I think he is more close to me than to her).

The reason I am writing now is to thank you very much for your help and I have another question:

Why every time after a fight she requires that I apologize and she asks me to say or act in nice way? Is it another illness or problem this case may have? Is that just to satisfy her arrogance that she is the perfect one? She likes to make me admit it was all my fault... And why she refuses to get anybody (even a professional or you guys) in our problem?

I think she will never admit that she needs help... Well, sometimes you ask yourself: why somebody wants to live a long life????


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## turnera

In her mind, she HAS to win. Just like a spoiled child. Your best bet is, the next time you argue, you just calmly say "I am NOT going to apologize." And walk away. This is just like raising a kid or a puppy: you have to maintain control, to eradicate the bad behavior.

At some point, you may be able to negotiate her going to psychologist - when she wants something really bad, just say "If you want X, I'll get it for you AFTER you visit a psychologist and follow their instructions."

Why don't you start your own thread?


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## Uptown

MIMO, I am glad to hear that you found the BPD information helpful.


MIMO said:


> It looks like you are professionals. ... Uptown: You are right with your diagnosis.


I realize that you are just speaking figuratively, MIMO. To avoid misleading new readers, however, I need to repeat that I am not a professional. And I have not attempted to diagnose anyone. Instead, I am simply explaining why your W's behavior, as you describe it, sounds like strong traits of BPD. This is NOT the same as saying that she "has BPD." Only a professional can determine whether those traits are so severe as to meet the diagnositic criteria. 

I therefore believe we all are capable of recognizing, for example, a selfish and grandiose person -- especially when we've been married to her for years -- even though we don't have a clue as to whether her behavior meets the diagnositic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder.


> I checked on the internet for more information and it is really her case. I am trying to get more educated about that and taking notes to know how to deal with her.


Great! Learning about the red flags is the best way of learning how to avoid being drawn into more drama with your W -- or into a long term relationship with another BPDer. And, as Turnera and I have suggested, you also need to read more about codependency to learn how to strengthen your personal boundaries. You want to get out of the "walking on eggshells" and "trash can" roles and, instead, start being your "old self" again.


> Why every time after a fight she requires that I apologize and she asks me to say or act in nice way?


As Turnera says, your W "just HAS to win -- just like a spoiled child." Your W faces a dilemma, putting her between a rock and a hard place. As I explained above, she likely experienced damage to her emotional core when she was three and thus failed to learn how to integrate the various conflicting aspects of her personality (both good and bad) into a unified self image. She therefore has been hindered all her life with the predicament that, if she is not "all good," she must necessarily be "all bad." And maintaining the fiction that she is _all good_ has been an impossible task. 

The easiest way of avoiding that dilemma is to use you as a dumping ground or trash can. She accomplishes that most of the time by using a primitive emotional defense called "projection." It works to absolve her of all guilt because it occurs subconsciously, permitting her to actually believe the outrageous things she attributes to you (but which actually originate in her own mind). Hence, your W is able to continue making numerous mistakes (due to her poor impulse control) and still believe she is "all good" because, in her mind, it was all your fault.

Well, IMO, that is the primary answer to your question as to why it is so important to her that you acknowledge she is blameless (thus confirming that she indeed is "all good"). There are other reasons too, e.g., her dysfunctional need to control you due to her fear of abandonment.

I know what you're thinking: "Why isn't it possible for me to catch her in a calm mood and then logically explain her mistake to her in a way she can understand?" Well, of course, you can easily catch her in "calm moods" nearly every day. The problem, however, is that -- like a four year old -- she is always ten seconds away from a tantrum. This means that any attempt to discuss a sensitive matter will demolish that "calm mood" within a few seconds. And, as I explained earlier, once her emotions become intense, she perceives her feelings to be facts (just as you and I do when we get intensely angry or frightened). 

This is why you likely will never reach a rational, mutually agreed upon compromise with your W in your lifetime unless she undergoes several years of treatment. Significantly, even 15 years of treatment by six different psychologists won't make a dent -- as I learned at great expense with my exW -- unless the BPDer has a strong desire for such therapy. Incidentally, if you want to start your own thread -- as Turnera suggests -- she and I will join you there.


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## turnera

And that is why the only thing you can do is protect yourself. Set boundaries of what you will or won't accept. If she yells, walk away. If she pouts, ignore her. If she hits you, call the cops. Let her experience her own consequences; stop experiencing them for her.


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## Conrad

turnera said:


> And that is why the only thing you can do is protect yourself. Set boundaries of what you will or won't accept. If she yells, walk away. If she pouts, ignore her. If she hits you, call the cops. Let her experience her own consequences; stop experiencing them for her.


Here's something that's mind blowing....

"Whatever you fix, she doesn't have to"

How does that grab you?


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## lola09

This sounds like me lately. Short fuse with profuse crying. I'm sorry I put my husband through that, I'm trying to figure out how to fix it now. :/

If you really love her, tell her exactly how you feel...that you want to work it out, but she has to make changes. POSITIVE changes. She's just unhappy with herself. That's my problem and I tend to behave the same way. I'm unhappy with myself and it took a while to realize it, but now I'm trying to change my ways. I say if you honestly love her, tell her. If she's willing to make changes, that's how you know she loves you enough to make it work. 

Bottom line: she's unhappy with herself, that's why she takes it out on you.


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## daddylove

Hello Gladiator, Mimo, Uptown and Turnera, 

Thank you for sharing your experiences. They have given me more understanding of my situation than anything I have experienced during my marriage to a woman who appears to show the symptoms described of BPD. 

She appeared normal in the beginning while she was living with her mom. My parents had just died and and I fell in love with her very quickly and was overwhelmed by the great sex. Very quickly I started to suspect something was not quite right because of the magnitude of the lies she was telling me. I overlooked some major red flags, (like her attacking her ex-husband with a knife) thinking that I could help her. Afterall, she had a terrible ex-husband that would have caused anybody to go crazy......

I married her against my better judgment because she was pregnant and I did not believe in abortion, and she told me at the time that she did not believe in abortion either. Later I learned that she had 4 abortions before meeting me. 

The fights were so frequent the first year of the marriage that I told myself that I wanted the police to take her away the next time she started fighting. That would have forced her to leave the country as well because she was here on a k-1 visa. It did not take more than a day or two for her to start the next fight. She had wanted to stop smoking and asked me to help her by not letting her buy cigarettes. She started screaming and threatening when she wanted a cigarette so I called the cops and they came. I was surprised that they did not take her away but they felt sorry for her and even confirmed that her behavior fit the requirements to be taken away but they said if it happens again that "somebody is going to jail". They gave me a talk about how difficult it was to stop smoking (the person talking had tried to stop cold turkey and couldn't) and to have more patience with her. (by the way, she still smokes). The police experience calmed down the situation for a little while and we were having so much difficulty trying to raise the child and pay the bills (1 wage earner in the house, me) that we tolerated the situation with her on Doctor prescribed tranquilizers. 

I have been so busy trying to catch up with my life that I have not understood until reading your posts that the situation fits a pattern. I have tried to understand the situation and searched for days over the past several years for answers on the internet. Until I typed in the words in "Angry violent wife" after one of her latest rampages, I did not find your post.

There was a grandmother who rubbed her face in her urine soaked bedsheets when she was 4 years old which appears to be connected with this, along with not having a father figure. 

The patterns in the arguments are almost always the same; she picks the fight and says it is all my fault. Then after the fight, she accuses me of starting the fight and demands that I apologize. Of course she will wait until she is offering sex until making this demand. Then the next morning she will be a stranger again and not talk. Any attempt to talk results in her blaming me for everything wrong in her life. 

Vacations are spent with her staying at home and me with the kid going someplace. She will usually say before the vacation that she is coming but almost always comes up with a fight before we leave and then she says she is staying home. In the times that she has left the house with us, she is extremely uncomfortable and almost hysterical in new environments if something unexpected at all happens. She always wants to go back home as soon as possible and clean something or do some standard routine by herself. Her obsession with cleaning is unbelievable. Perhaps related to the 4 year old face in the urine soaked bedsheets, or some other childhood horror. 

I have been preparing for the divorce now for several years trying to document some of these episodes with the family doctor and others but the it is going to be difficult no matter well this is documented because of the child.

I believe the information on BPD is very descriptive of my wife and I thank you very much for posting it as it helps me understand the issues better and it helps me to stay calm during her frequent outbursts.


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## turnera

Good luck!


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## Uptown

DaddyLove, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry to hear that your W's behavior is so similar to my descriptions of BPD traits -- but I'm glad that you found the information useful. Knowing that her dysfunctional traits form a common pattern of traits called "BPD" opens up a world of online information because you now know what term to use in Google.

There are two message boards at BPDfamily.com that may be very helpful. One is "Leaving" and the other is "Raising a Child when One Parent has BPD." There you will be able to get tips from hundreds of other folks who are going through -- or have gone through -- the divorce mess you are about to enter. When one spouse has strong BPD traits, the divorce usually gets ugly really quick. 

I mention BPDfamily because it is the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is targeted only to the partners, spouses, and family members of BPDers. Also, please don't be shy about returning here to TAM to ask us questions or to share your experiences with others who are enmeshed in toxic relationships. Your detailed and articulate post above likely will help numerous forum members and "lurkers." I wish the very best for you and your family.


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## daddylove

Thank you very much uptown for the links. This information has broken the feeling of isolation and confusion I felt regarding this issue. This is similar to having an illness that nobody was able to understand and finally finding a group of people who have the same problem and know more about it. I also know she is using the same tactics with the child. The kindergarten teachers have had some meetings with me about this already, that the child was depressed, that the child was afraid of doing something in kindergarten because the mother would get mad at her, etc. 

Looking at the article "How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves" Adapted from Romeo's Bleeding by Roger Melton, M.A., I have observerd the three stages mentioned. What especially resonated are the items marked with the arrows. 

QUOTE: "
she often presents with a clear and characteristic personality pattern over time. This pattern usually evolves through three stages: The Vulnerable Seducer, The Clinger, and The Hater. 


Love: The Vulnerable Seducer Phase
At first, a Borderline female may appear sweet, shy, vulnerable and "ambivalently in need of being rescued"; looking for her Knight in Shining Armor.
In the beginning, you will feel a rapidly accelerating sense of compassion because she is a master at portraying herself as she "victim of love" and you are saving her.


Love: The Clinger Phase
She can swing from elated agitation to mournful gloom at the blink of an eye. Watching the erratic changes in her moods is like tracking the needle on a Richter-scale chart at the site of an active volcano, and 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
you never know which flick of the needle will predict the big explosion. <-------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
But after every emotional Vesuvius she pleads for your mercy.



Love: The Hater Phase
..... when that part makes it's first appearance, rage is how it breaks into your life.
What gives this rage its characteristically borderline flavor is that it is very difficult for someone witnessing it to know what triggered it in reality. But that is its primary identifying clue: the actual rage-trigger is difficult for you to see. But in the Borderline's mind it always seems to be very clear. To her, there is always a cause. 
----------------------------
And the cause is always you. <----
----------------------------
Whether it is the 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tone of your voice, how you think, how you feel, dress, move or breathe - or "the way you're looking at me," <----------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- she will always justify her rage by blaming you for "having to hurt her."
" ENDQUOTE


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## Uptown

DaddyLove, that BPDfamily article is an excellent overview that I have recommended a hundred times to "excessive caregivers" like you and me who are single-mindedly focused on taking care of their wives and spouses. Please keep in mind, however, that the entire website at BPDfamily is focused on helping such caregivers free themselves from a toxic relationship they have been stuck in due to misguided guilt and feelings of obligation. The articles and forums there do not discuss the wonderful attributes of BPDers. They ignore that good side because it is the only side that we caregivers focus on. 

The result is that the article above -- and the BPDfamily site in general -- presents a viewpoint that is so black-white it often outdoes the splitting they are so quick to criticize in BPDers. I agree with them that this one-sided approach is likely necessary to give the codependent caregivers a more balanced view. Yet, I bring it to your attention because, in my view, they go way overboard on the "manipulation" and "malevolence" they claim is behind the BPDers' actions. For the BPDer's six month honeymoon period, for example, they describe a person who seeks you out and then, like a black spider, entices you into her web with a host of manipulations.

In contrast, my experience with BPDers is that -- like every other human on the planet -- they are deceived by their own infatuation over the new lover. Because infatuation occurs at the subconscious level, the conscious part of the mind fully believes it. Likewise, a BPDer's other projections of awful intent or actions onto her partner also occurs at the subconscious level, which implies it is not manipulation but rather a distorted perception.

Granted, a typical BPDer is so filled with shame (carried from childhood) that she will lie when cornered to avoid admitting a mistake. And a BPDer will be very controlling and jealous due to her fear of abandonment. This does not imply, however, that BPDers are the evil, manipulating creatures portrayed in that article. I don't think of BPDers as evil or bad. Rather, I think of them as sick people whose perceptions of other peoples' motivations are so distorted that they end up abusing the very people who love them the most. What some other folks perceive as "evil," I think of as a distorted thinking that makes good people perceive of another person as Hitler, leading them to treat him accordingly. Hence, the meanness and vindictiveness -- hallmarks of BPDers -- is what you get when good people mistakenly perceive of other people as "Hitlers."

I mention all this because, if you believed every negative description in that article, you would have no explanation whatsoever as to why you were so attracted to your W at the beginning and why you spent so many years trying to help her (before giving up in the past year). To understand that, you have to concede that BPDers have many wonderful qualities too. My experience is that, as a group, they are smarter than average and are more fun to be around than most other people (before you draw close and pose a threat to them). Their very best trait, however, is the warmth they exude and the purity of their expressions. My exW, for example, treated complete strangers with such grace and warmth that -- within 30 minutes -- they felt they had known her for a long time. And they would tell her things they had never told anyone else.

Generally, BPDers strongly exhibit a very childlike quality when showing friendliness or affection to strangers and casual friends. During the honeymoon phase, this purity of expression reveals itself as a passion and adoration rarely, if ever, experienced with a stable woman. And, as long as the BPDer is splitting you white, going home is such a joy. On opening the front door, you are greeted in a way known so well to every father -- by a young girl walking toward you with outstretched arms and an unmitigated smile on her face. 

Once you have been exposed to such glory, it is extremely difficult to believe you cannot find a way to restore it -- if you can only figure out what you're doing wrong that so upsets her. This, of course, is why the partners and spouses are so utterly confused that many of them feel they are going crazy.


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## oneton

i've had bad fights as well, cursing, shouting, breaking things, hitting, biting, pulling - thankfully no pushing - but it's not as bad as yours i guess

that doesn't give any consolation for me and it might as well be as bad as yours

i've given much thought to both suicide - which wont work 
and divorce - which doesn't work wither

because it leaves problems for other people and i don;t like leaving problems around....


this is my first post and i think i'm glad to be here, because sometimes i feel like going crazy - just a feeling cuz of the situation im in and the kind of personality she has....

i will be sharing my problem sometime to get other views/opinions and i hope and wish and pray that someone professional can give me advice because sometimes i can't stand it anymore. 

life is too precious to live depressed day to day...


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## Uptown

oneton said:


> Sometimes i feel like going crazy - just a feeling cuz of the situation im in and the kind of personality she has....


Oneton, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry to hear that you may be married to a BPDer and are suffering such enormous stress. Of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the person's spouse/partner feel like they are going crazy. Accordingly, therapists see far more nonBPD partners coming in for help -- thinking they may be losing their minds -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

If you believe your W has strong BPD traits, I strongly suggest that you see a psychologist for professional guidance and to confirm what it is you are dealing with. On this forum, none of us that I know of are psychiatric professionals. I also suggest that you supplement your activities here by also participating at BPDfamily.com, which I mentioned above. You also could benefit from reading _Stop Walking on Eggshells, _the #1 best selling BPD book targeted to the nonBPD spouses. I look forward to reading your posts when you have time to share some more of your experiences with us. Take care, Oneton.


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## pidge70

You would think I would find some strange comfort in seeing that there are "others" like me, oddly enough, it just depresses me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

pidge70 said:


> You would think I would find some strange comfort in seeing that there are "others" like me, oddly enough, it just depresses me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you are living proof that there are good people out there with BPD. Your husband thinks so as well.


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## pidge70

morituri said:


> But you are living proof that there are good people out there with BPD. Your husband thinks so as well.



Wasn't always so. I was so damn horrible. I am so very grateful and lucky he stayed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mandi52285

I know it has been a few months since anyone has even replied to this article. I actually found it on accident, but it intrigued so I had to reply.

I hope I can provide a new perspective on the situation as well as some hope. I was diagnosed with BPD and manic depression when I was 15. I had an extremely abusive step mother (who fits more criteria for BPD than I do). I thought she was the greatest step mom ever. I lived with my real mom until I was nine but I would see her on the weekends at my dads. My mom died when I was nine so I went to live with them. The first day after my mother died, she ripped up my mothers belongings in front of me. She hit me, threatened to poison me, she shaved my head when I was 11 (yes I am a girl, yes it sucked horribly). She pulled out a loaded gun and tried to shoot our dog because I didn't ask permission to walk her. I even peed on my floor a couple times because I was so afraid to wake her up at night. I was so little and I would PRAY to god to help me. My dad worked a lot and since she was so perfect and sweet when he was around; she got away with lying and blaming me for everything. She would tell him I was upset about my mother dying and was making up lies about her etc. My dad was and is a great guy; but he believed her. I was turning angry and violent myself and screwing up with school and boys; making her stories about me being a lair more believable. Anyways I really loved her because between the abuse she would talk to me as if I were her daughter, telling me how good I was; next minute telling me that she never loved me. She was respected in the community and nobody ever believed me. I ran away from home young. Never coming back. I am lucky to have my dad. He divorced her when I was 19. Rather, she left him for another man. She had cheated a lot in the past no surprise. 

As I grew up I was a party girl. A free spirit. I ignored responsibility. Looked to men and drugs to numb me from my embarrassing a guilty past. I used the good looks my beautiful mother left me and took full advantage.

I met my hubby when I was 20. We started dating and took things slow. He moved in a year later. We married when I was 22. (I am 26 now hes is 27). Six months after the marriage started I was back to my old ways. Crying fits, hitting and slapping him. Stealing money for drugs. Telling him I hate him, blaming him for tying me down. The whole time I felt this rage inside of me. I loved him, I hated myself. It made me feel so unworthy that he was this loving, patient, sweet guy with this awesome family. I was nothing. A fraud. An embarrassment. He would see right through me I thought. The rages would come fast and end slow. I would feel them coming like a wave over me. Uncontrollable. I could do nothing to stop them even though in my mind I knew I was being unreasonable and childish and cruel to the one person in this world that loved me.

Our marriage almost ended because of the drugs. I was on a drug binge and came home to an empty house. He swore he loved me but couldn't deal with it anymore. It had taken so much abuse to make him leave. I feel bad for those days still. The pain was so bad I cried for days until I puked. I lost even more weight than the drugs had taken from me. I resolved to change the day I saw that empty house. I never did drugs again. I got a job that week. I got counseling. He came back after three months... STILL very wary of my change as he should have been. I knew it was different somehow that time. I don't know what the hell happened; the pain just made me draw upon some unknown strength. I look back to those days in that empty house as a beginning, of my real life. 

Since then, I went back to college and I am almost graduated now at 27. Plan on continuing to get my MSW. We are doing good, even as a struggling young couple. There is a peace between us. We joke and laugh about everything. My best friend is my husband. When we fight I stop myself to really listen to him. He listens to me. Our fights are short and there is not much yelling in our home, NEVER any hitting or name calling. There have been a few incidents that were a bit out of control. Quitting smoking, I became super crabby and would cry and cry. I locked myself in the bathroom for hours. I don't know what to say. I feel lucky to be with him, and I know now that I have good qualities too. He loves my fire, my sense of humor, adventure, and willingness to try new things. I love his good nature, patience, sarcasm, and the fact that he gives us that sense of home, giving roots to my free flying spirit. 

I don't actually know if I had BPD. I know that I had many symptoms. Almost all of them. I can't say that you should stay with your wife or not. Maybe we we're different; maybe we're not. I am sure glad my husband didn't leave me for good, or brand me with evil. Anyways- that's my story.


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## Uptown

Mandi, what a remarkable story! You should be very proud of your remarkable achievement. I wish you and your H a happy new year!


> I don't actually know if I had BPD. I know that I had many symptoms.


Only a professional can give you a definitive answer. I will say, however, that it is seems extremely unlikely you had BPD. One reason is that most abused children do not develop BPD. The reason seems to be that genetics plays an important role, giving a child a predisposition to developing a mental disorder. Another reason is that, from what I've read, BPD is generally regarded as damage to the emotional core occurring by the age of five -- at which time the child is trying to develop a sense of self. This is why BPDers usually have a very fragile ego and a weak sense of who they are. That damage would be far less likely to occur starting at age nine.

A third reason is that, because the disorder is invisible to the victim, it is rare for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness or ego strength to be willing to take responsibility for her own behavior, much less seek therapy to correct it. And in those rare instances when they do, it takes several years -- at the very least -- to learn how to trust, how to manage emotions, how to do self soothing, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings. I've never heard of anyone accomplishing such a thing in several months. Once those skills have been mastered, the BPD sufferer is able to manage the traits but is not free of the disorder. There is no "cure" at this time. The BPDer therefore has to constantly work hard to keep the traits under control.

As to your saying "I had many symptoms," you should be exhibiting all nine BPD symptoms -- at least occasionally. We all do. Such traits become a problem only when they are so severe -- and so persistent over many years -- that they undermine one's ability to sustain close LTRs.

It therefore sounds to me like you may have suffered PTSD, which is the type of emotional damage done when trauma is experienced in later childhood or adulthood. In any event, you exhibited remarkable self awareness and courage to be able to turn your behavior around in a few months. I applaud you!


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## mandi52285

Uptown said:


> Mandi, what a remarkable story! You should be very proud of your remarkable achievement. I wish you and your H a happy new year!




Thank you, we had a wonderful new year this year. We have a little girl now so we decided to not go out with our friends and spend time with her. We were joking that we're getting old because neither one of us wanted to go out with our friends to 'drink'. Definitely would rather be comfy at home with my family on the holidays 

Hope you had a happy new years too.


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## mandi52285

Oh and thank you for the other information too. I didn't see it at the first read, not sure why hmm. 

Yes, I was diagnosed with so many things as a teenager. There were issues with my real mom too but she was poor and dying of cancer my whole life, no abuse situations until I was 9. My brother died when I was 8 also...

As things go, my husband used to say I had all the symptoms of it but we both agree that if it was a personality disorder it would have been harder to correct. I always wanted to get real help for my issues but I was too embarrassed to seek it. I put it off until the incident...The therapy helped, but it was the decision I made that boggles me. I really just said out loud to myself "I am not going to be like this..." and...It became my new reality.


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## thommanseo

You should understand your wife completely first,may be she is behaving like this because of her family background and other circumstances.Love her sincerely,the current condition will be definitely change.www.amazingmatrimony.com


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## toolate

mandi52285 said:


> Oh and thank you for the other information too. I didn't see it at the first read, not sure why hmm.
> 
> Yes, I was diagnosed with so many things as a teenager. There were issues with my real mom too but she was poor and dying of cancer my whole life, no abuse situations until I was 9. My brother died when I was 8 also...
> 
> As things go, my husband used to say I had all the symptoms of it but we both agree that if it was a personality disorder it would have been harder to correct. I always wanted to get real help for my issues but I was too embarrassed to seek it. I put it off until the incident...The therapy helped, but it was the decision I made that boggles me. I really just said out loud to myself "I am not going to be like this..." and...It became my new reality.


As I was reading your original post I was wondering if there had been an "unavailable" mom prior to all this at age 9... this follow up cleared that up. The damage that the OP was referring to that occurs typically before age 5 (actaully before age 3 even) doesnt have to be overt abuse but can also be covert abuse in the neglect or unavailableness of the primary caregiver. It can also be caused by a mismatched or misresponded to cue from a high need child. For example, one child may be ok with mom's responses to care whereas a high need child may feel neglected by something that would be ok for another child. This child may be left for long crying spells with the Dr Spock method and instead of learning to self soothe and fall asleep, end up with just enough trauma in the developing self. Its quite sad bc some well meaning yet completely overwhelmed parents may end up with an emotionally compromised child bc they didnt give the right kind of care or attention for that child.

BPD is not so much a mental disease as an internal confusion and shame about oneself that is so guarded it creates an incredible interpersonal dilemma. There are many "high functioning" BPDers, my husband is one of them. The self is so fragile, that it needs to be protected which doesnt allow for the natural give and take and honesty and vulnerability in relationships. Its why sex with my husband is only on his terms, when he needs to release, and why he cant fathom why I have a sexual need, he literally cant understand. I have to view my husband as a hurt child in a grown mans body... I forget this sometimes, so Im glad to have stumbled across your post. Especially today, when he punched me this morning. it makes me want to do what your husband did to wake you up. I dont know if it would wake my husband up though, since with the punch came "I hope your car goes off the bridge and you die today." Oh well. Much therapy helped me to brush it off and expect it... it doesnt make it hurt any less at the time though. He has no idea. Proud of you for admitting to yourself and doing the hard work to manage it... it can be done. I have seen it be done in others (used to be a social worker... I also have seen it not work alot).


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## turnera

toolate, are you demanding that your husband get professional help?


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## mandi52285

toolate said:


> As I was reading your original post I was wondering if there had been an "unavailable" mom prior to all this at age 9... this follow up cleared that up. The damage that the OP was referring to that occurs typically before age 5 (actaully before age 3 even) doesnt have to be overt abuse but can also be covert abuse in the neglect or unavailableness of the primary caregiver. It can also be caused by a mismatched or misresponded to cue from a high need child. For example, one child may be ok with mom's responses to care whereas a high need child may feel neglected by something that would be ok for another child. This child may be left for long crying spells with the Dr Spock method and instead of learning to self soothe and fall asleep, end up with just enough trauma in the developing self. Its quite sad bc some well meaning yet completely overwhelmed parents may end up with an emotionally compromised child bc they didnt give the right kind of care or attention for that child.
> 
> BPD is not so much a mental disease as an internal confusion and shame about oneself that is so guarded it creates an incredible interpersonal dilemma. There are many "high functioning" BPDers, my husband is one of them. The self is so fragile, that it needs to be protected which doesnt allow for the natural give and take and honesty and vulnerability in relationships. Its why sex with my husband is only on his terms, when he needs to release, and why he cant fathom why I have a sexual need, he literally cant understand. I have to view my husband as a hurt child in a grown mans body... I forget this sometimes, so Im glad to have stumbled across your post. Especially today, when he punched me this morning. it makes me want to do what your husband did to wake you up. I dont know if it would wake my husband up though, since with the punch came "I hope your car goes off the bridge and you die today." Oh well. Much therapy helped me to brush it off and expect it... it doesnt make it hurt any less at the time though. He has no idea. Proud of you for admitting to yourself and doing the hard work to manage it... it can be done. I have seen it be done in others (used to be a social worker... I also have seen it not work alot).




Your post really got to me. My mom had breast cancer. I know that she used to let me cry in my crib to the point that one day I just stopped crying. When I went to stay at my dads for two weeks as a baby (my mom was in FL visiting family so my dad took me, they were already split). He was astonished that I didn't cry once. He said I would wake up and quietly stare at the ceiling until somebody came for me. It made him cry. My mom was an awesome person, loved by many but with my brother having hydrocephalus and her having breast cancer, and my older sister being a drug addict; I was the last thing on her to do list. I was often left with babysitters while she went out. I was left alone so much that it became normal for me. I did not develop normal social behaviors until I was much much older. I am STILL learning to be comfortable around people as we speak.

Your husband saying that he wants you to die is NOT true. It struck me so hard to read that because it is so familiar to me. I used to get mad over the strangest things (at my husband) and tell him that I hope he gets hit by a bus. I would tell him I hate him. The truth is that I love him more than anything else in the whole world. The hate would just pour out of my invisible wounds... onto him. I know it is hard but please don't believe that he hates you, he loves you more than you can imagine. He probably just can't control the fear, the sadness...Don't give up on him if you still love him, and have the fight left in you...

Also, as far as leaving me... This DID work for us. When he left, my worst nightmare had come true. Coming home in the middle of winter from a week long drug binge to find my house empty and cold, the man I love, gone. No comfort for me, nobody to cry to. Alone. Screaming in the dark, dirty house, nobody could hear my screams. The pain was unimaginable. The few times we talked within the first month, he would tell me he was not coming back and not to worry about him. He would not give me the chance to manipulate him. He said that it was hard to watch me at my worst and not comfort me. But had he come back right away, I would never have learned. He kept telling me to work on myself and not call him. I tried every manipulation (including going on a date with another guy, during which I was thinking about my husband and crying) he was so strong. He held firm. He even told me to date other people, even though he tells me now that it KILLED him to say that. I had to really believe he was gone. 

Facing that fear saved my life. Being away from him made me think about myself, depend on myself. 

Everyone if different though. Think about the situation deeply, get professional advice and help. Stick to your guns, anything is possible.


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## total eclipse

Hi group. First time I ever been on a forum.. after reading some of these posts I am amazed to find other men I feel are in same situations as me.. Gladiator.. yours sounds similar to mine.. I am lost no idea how to help my beautiful wife who is trapped in this angry depressed place and we have children to.
Please help..


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## anchorwatch

Hello total, welcome. 

This post is very old and Gladiator hasn't responded since 9/10. Thought reading past post can be of much help. You might start your own thread, with your situation here in the Men's section or General Relationship section. You would get much more responses and be able to interact with others that can help. 

Good luck.


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