# I Grow Tired of Your Reindeer Games



## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

I grow tired of the reindeer games. I lost it in a rage over an email I read 16 years ago. It was from a woman he was seeing during the offagain phase of our onagainoffagain relationship before we married. He responded to her with some inside oral sex joke referencing Carl's Jr. I wasn't mad about it, I was mad because of all the lectures he gave me about how wrong it was to date anyone after we broke up because we were "soulmates" and he was coming over trying to work things out with me.

But I read it. He was seeing (at least) her the entire time so the jig was up. You don't get to make me feel guilty anymore because I know what you were really up to when you were riding the mighty steed of righteousness. We broke up for years.

That was a long time ago. Last month I picked him up after work and there was no food at the house so I said do you want to get a burger on the way home? He says "How 'bout Carl's Jr.?" Like a sword through the heart inside I am dying hearing this from him. I manage a feeble "How about Subway?"

The following weekend (I kid you not) he says "Let's go to Carl's Jr." At this point I think he either no longer realizes who he is talking to or is deliberately trying to provoke me. Still in shock, I announce I am giving up sugar and fast food.

The following weekend I have been working all day in the garden and need to eat, I figure I can have chicken strips on my diet as long as there are no fries or soda and he says, yep you guessed it.

"[email protected]#$%!!! NO. I will never want to go to Carl's Jr. for the rest of my life. You need to stop suggesting it. Do you need me to tell you why!?" (The look on his face says it all) No, he says. But I enlighten him, just so there are no misunderstandings in the future. I also point out the irony of listening to him complain about all the "clueless" people he has to deal with!

During this, he looks pained, gets mad at me for providing the details he clearly needs. Then he says, "What about everything you have done." What?!

This leads to the following weekend (present time) where things got bad and we had a blow up like we haven't had in years. He is miserable and just blames me for everything that went wrong, like he did nothing. Now we are on day 2 of Silence. I can't leave because there is a memorial garden I have been building for my Mom here there will be a blessing on the anniversary of her passing. I don't want to tell everyone, oh by the way we're getting divorced or have to give the garden. I have made a huge mess and also reminded him of a woman he might have actually forgotten about, which is the only explanation other than doing it on purpose. Bloody brilliant!


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

I had to look up a couple of items. Reindeer games Urban Dictionary: reindeer games I love the example quoted. 
Carl's Jr appears to be a family restaurant chain, how is that associated with oral sex?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

I don't know. That's the point. It was an inside sex joke between them while standing in line at a Carl's Jr. before or after she gave him a blow job. I didn't read much more after that because I was busy picking up a croquet mallet and chasing him out of the house. Like I said, we broke up for years after that.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I grow tired of the reindeer games. I lost it in a rage over an email I read 16 years ago. It was from a woman he was seeing during the offagain phase of our onagainoffagain relationship before we married. He responded to her with some inside oral sex joke referencing Carl's Jr. I wasn't mad about it, I was mad because of all the lectures he gave me about how wrong it was to date anyone after we broke up because we were "soulmates" and he was coming over trying to work things out with me.
> 
> But I read it. He was seeing (at least) her the entire time so the jig was up. You don't get to make me feel guilty anymore because I know what you were really up to when you were riding the mighty steed of righteousness. We broke up for years.
> 
> ...



Your post is a bit confusing. Quite frankly we women can remember things from 20 years ago, men do not function the same way, he may have genuinely forgot about the CJ in joke. Why don't you ask him. 
It sounds like you might have been carrying this around for a long time and its caused you much pain. How did you deal with the EA he had with her? Was it rug swept?

the key problems are 
1. he lied to you.
2 You were off the relationship and didn't put down rules about separation and dating etc
3. I don't think you can be mad at him about that

Is this just a trigger for something else? You are hurting, tell him.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@dropdeaddiva Could he be an utterly clueless idiot?

It might be that there is something telling him not to mention Carl Jnrs, but that this causes an irresistible urge to mention it.

In the UK this is referenced as "Don't mention the war!" which was a fairly common phrase (didn't want to embarrass the Germans, right?  ) but it was made inot a bitingly funny episode of Fawlty Towers, with John Cleese.

Basil Fawlty has a group of German visitors to his hotel, Fawlty Towers and in his desperate attempts to make sure none of his staff mentions the war, he keeps accidentally mentioning the war until in the end he has some sort of a Carl Jnrs moment and totally melts down.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

The Reindeer games are the ones he was playing with her that I was clearly left out of. How he can start bringing anything up in relation to it after all these years is beyond me. It is having a profound negative effect on me enough to make me re-enact the original fight and want to leave. I have lost perspective and feels like it just happened.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

aine said:


> Your post is a bit confusing. Quite frankly we women can remember things from 20 years ago, men do not function the same way, he may have genuinely forgot about the CJ in joke. Why don't you ask him.
> It sounds like you might have been carrying this around for a long time and its caused you much pain. How did you deal with the EA he had with her? Was it rug swept?
> 
> the key problems are
> ...


Is it an EA if they have sex repeatedly?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

twoofus said:


> I had to look up a couple of items. Reindeer games Urban Dictionary: reindeer games I love the example quoted.
> Carl's Jr appears to be a family restaurant chain, how is that associated with oral sex?


They had an advertising campaign a few years back. I won't repeat the catchphrase here but it was commonly associated with it.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Is it an EA if they have sex repeatedly?


It was definitely more "P" than "E", but I'm a little unclear on the "A" part. This was while you two were broken up prior to marriage, correct?

Notwithstanding any of that, if he's been on your ass about relationships you had while broken up, which I gather has been the case, I get why you'd be upset at the hypocrisy. Just don't assume he's wielding this Carl Jrs. stuff deliberately; he may well have no idea that it triggers you, so it may be worthwhile to mention.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

May I ask, why did you get back together, if in the past you were very "on again /off again?" instability forms a trend. 

Whether he intentionally meant to hurt you or not with the Carl Jr. reference, why didn't you speak up the first time to explain why you'll never go there with him? You let that one fester.

You seem afraid to lose him. Don't be cemented by fear. There are always options.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

GTdad said:


> It was definitely more "P" than "E", but I'm a little unclear on the "A" part. This was while you two were broken up prior to marriage, correct?
> 
> Notwithstanding any of that, if he's been on your ass about relationships you had while broken up, which I gather has been the case, I get why you'd be upset at the hypocrisy. Just don't assume he's wielding this Carl Jrs. stuff deliberately; he may well have no idea that it triggers you, so it may be worthwhile to mention.


THIS. EXACTLY. And yes I did mention it.

I guess the point is that he was seeing her while he was coming over "trying to work things out" with me. I found out about her after he had broken it off with her. I even called her and asked when she stopped seeing him. When I realized what was going on I broke the engagement because my heart was broken.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Satya said:


> May I ask, why did you get back together, if in the past you were very "on again /off again?" instability forms a trend.
> 
> Whether he intentionally meant to hurt you or not with the Carl Jr. reference, why didn't you speak up the first time to explain why you'll never go there with him? You let that one fester.
> 
> You seem afraid to lose him. Don't be cemented by fear. There are always options.


I didn't want to fight is why I didn't bring it up. It was forever ago and I tried to be grown up and let it go. We have been married for 14 years now and I thought we made it past all of that.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> THIS. EXACTLY. And yes I did mention it.


Yes, you did. I missed that in my first reading.

How has your marriage been, overall? Do you think marriage counseling might help you two to get on the same page?

ETA: it sounds like there is a fair bit of resentment; airing that out in front of a neutral third party may be pretty beneficial.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Satya said:


> May I ask, why did you get back together, if in the past you were very "on again /off again?" instability forms a trend.


Yes we were very on/off for a while. We did get back together after a long break and I married him when he asked because he is the love of my life.


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## InspiralImplode (Jun 13, 2017)

Yes Carls Jr had some really sexist and strange ad campaigns. Who was the a**hat behind that? Yes, Carls Jr reference is in poor taste, but also a little funny? I think he is acknowledging it as wrong but trying to break the ice with you using humor.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I didn't want to fight is why I didn't bring it up. It was forever ago and I tried to be grown up and let it go. We have been married for 14 years now and I thought we made it past all of that.


Well, a couple things then... 

If you did not heal sufficiently the first time, you won't be able to just get past it. It WILL stay with you, dormant. What did he do back then to demonstrate his remorse? 

If you feel he WAS sufficiently remorseful, then yes... You should work on putting the resentment to bed.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Satya said:


> Well, a couple things then...
> 
> If you did not heal sufficiently the first time, you won't be able to just get past it. It WILL stay with you, dormant. What did he do back then to demonstrate his remorse?
> 
> If you feel he WAS sufficiently remorseful, then yes... You should work on putting the resentment to bed.


Yes, I could have let it go and not be in this mess. Its his attitude NOW that is the problem. He stopped talking and told me to leave him alone. That was 2 days ago. I don't know why he is saying I was the one bothering the neighbors. We were both yelling. They either heard both of us or neither. Sound waves don't work for only my voice.

He is not remorseful NOW.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

[/url]via Imgflip Meme Generator[/IMG]


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Is it an EA if they have sex repeatedly?


LOL.. of course it's not an EA if they has sex even once. It's a PA, or physical affair.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> The Reindeer games are the ones he was playing with her that I was clearly left out of. How he can start bringing anything up in relation to it after all these years is beyond me. It is having a profound negative effect on me enough to make me re-enact the original fight and want to leave. I have lost perspective and feels like it just happened.


It's what is called a trigger. Something comes up and triggers you to relive the pain of his affair. It's very common.

I do not think he has forgotten a thing. After all, why does he keep bringing up Carl's Junior when you keep reminding him that it's a problem to bring it up. He's bringing it up as a passive aggressive way to take a dig at you and hurt you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

InspiralImplode said:


> Yes Carls Jr had some really sexist and strange ad campaigns. Who was the a**hat behind that? Yes, Carls Jr reference is in poor taste, but also a little funny? I think he is acknowledging it as wrong but trying to break the ice with you using humor.


What is funny about him brining up Carl's Jr?


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

I find this restaurant business strange. I've avoided Burger King because I wish to keep my arteries in reasonable shape, not because they ran a double-entendre slogan "You need two hands to hold our whopper". My wife has never felt the need to beat someone up about a restaurant choice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

twoofus said:


> I find this restaurant business strange. I've avoided Burger King because I wish to keep my arteries in reasonable shape, not because they ran a double-entendre slogan "You need two hands to hold our whopper". My wife has never felt the need to beat someone up about a restaurant choice.


I guess you missed what the OP stated was the issue. You might want to re-read her first post until you get it. 

Clue: it has nothing to do with the slogan "You need two hands to hold our whopper". It has everything to do with the affair her now husband had and the association of Car's Junior with the physical affair.


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

Could it be that this hapless chap who had a non adulterous affair with a lady with whom he shared a risqué joke before he was married to the op just fancied a meal at Carls Jr because he likes the food there and simply had no reason to think that anyone would be offended by it and had simply forgotten that joke of 16 years ago?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> It's what is called a trigger. Something comes up and triggers you to relive the pain of his affair. It's very common.
> 
> I do not think he has forgotten a thing. After all, why does he keep bringing up Carl's Junior when you keep reminding him that it's a problem to bring it up. He's bringing it up as a passive aggressive way to take a dig at you and hurt you.


I didn't remind him it was a painful reference for me, I didn't think I had to. What another poster here said is true, I let it fester and then exploded. I feel like I could have let it go forever. But he kept bringing it up....so, I feel like I can handle it if I don't have a weekly reminder.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I didn't remind him it was a painful reference for me, I didn't think I had to. What another poster here said is true, I let it fester and then exploded. I feel like I could have let it go forever. But he kept bringing it up....so, I feel like I can handle it if I don't have a weekly reminder.


So now that you have told him that it's an issue, he is pouting. It that right?

I guess he just needs to deal with it.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

twoofus said:


> Could it be that this hapless chap who had a non adulterous affair with a lady with whom he shared a risqué joke before he was married to the op just fancied a meal at Carls Jr because he likes the food there and simply had no reason to think that anyone would be offended by it and had simply forgotten that joke of 16 years ago?



I suppose. But he was coming over to my house telling me on how much it hurts him to think of his soulmate with anyone else and that it was too soon after our breakup for me to be dating, that we should work things out and get back together, blah, blah, blah. He was there for Thanksgiving saying we should get married! I guess its no big deal.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

The more I write about this the worse it sounds. No wonder I got so angry with him. Nothing was ever resolved. We just broke up. I didn't see him again for a couple years.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

And also he made it seem like it would be a betrayal if I dated anyone or moved on at all, our wedding, blah, blah, blah and he was seeing other women. So it IS a slap in the face for him to want me to go to effing Carl's Jr. I swear. 

Wow, I really need to calm down. I can't believe how powerful this stupid hamburger reference is.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

...


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

After so many years maybe he genuinely forgot that the joke was between the two of them, and instead thought the joke was between the two of you? 

Just a thought.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

DDD,

Have you and your H been faithful while married?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

You know there is this guy from before we we married that just the mention of his name will send him off. And I know it. For some reason he hates him the most. This whole thing would be like me playing "Jeremy" on the stereo at full volume, every weekend for a month (if the house wasn't burned to the ground by then) and then saying "Whats wrong, I thought you liked Pearl Jam?!"

We would be getting a divorce if I did that.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

RWB said:


> DDD,
> 
> Have you and your H been faithful while married?


I have been. He has had a few online funtimes, he calls porn that I consider hookup sites, but that was long ago, before I got sick.

All this crap is when we were together before we married.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

happy as a clam said:


> After so many years maybe he genuinely forgot that the joke was between the two of them, and instead thought the joke was between the two of you?
> 
> Just a thought.


You know? He would never admit that but it seems quite plausible.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

dropdeaddiva said:


> You know there is this guy from before we we married that just the mention of his name will send him off. And I know it. For some reason he hates him the most. This whole thing would be like me playing "Jeremy" on the stereo at full volume, every weekend for a month (if the house wasn't burned to the ground by then) and then saying "Whats wrong, I thought you liked Pearl Jam?!"


Better yet, antagonize him with that til he loses it and then threaten to call the cops if he breaks the stereo.


THAT IS WHAT THIS FEELS LIKE


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

I still feel bad. I am trying to feel better and he apologized, I guess. But I am not feeling it. I want to know how could you forget about the email that broke my heart? He obviously wasn't ready to be married at that point in his life. But I was. There is no one in the world I wanted to marry besides him, I didn't have to think about it. 

It wasn't me going over to his house trying to work things out while having lovers on the side, it was him.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

OK so yeah I guess my biggest problem is his beyond crappy attitude, which reminds me of the old pattern before we got married. He would do something passive aggressive and then when I got mad about it, use it as the reason to justify his needing comfort elsewhere.

Its just a bunch of crap. I can feel it. Its the same. He actually walked out of the room today declaring "You have caused more problems than anybody, ever" because I didn't want to deal with the silent treatment today, and I let him know in full voice. 

Really?! How is that going to fix our communication?

Seriously???? more than anyone _ever_? You mean more than your drunk sister whom your parents had to raise her kids because she never got it together? More than your nephew? who is in a jail at the coast?

He is the ONLY one who has made it out of his nuclear family and made anything of himself and his talent. 

Meanwhile, I sold my car to pay the last month's lease and he is still acting like he has all day to walk away and mock me, WTF!!!!! So yeah, it feels just like it did when he was trying to get with other women on the side. before we were married, which is why we were onagainoffagin. 

Le Deepest of all Sighs


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

DDD, can you just act as if nothing is wrong and go into snoop mode for a few weeks and see if you find anything, then dump him if he is up to his old tricks. He doesn't sound very loving or considerate of your feelings but I wonder do you yell at him a lot, accuse him of stuff etc? That will cause major problems as it is disrespectful.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

aine said:


> DDD, can you just act as if nothing is wrong and go into snoop mode for a few weeks and see if you find anything, then dump him if he is up to his old tricks. He doesn't sound very loving or considerate of your feelings but I wonder do you yell at him a lot, accuse him of stuff etc? That will cause major problems as it is disrespectful.


Yes, I can do that. But no. I don't yell and accuse. I leave him alone when he obviously wants that. When he walks out of the room when I am talking, then yes, I will yell and tell him that is no way to solve anything. He treats me like I am an annoyance, and yes, I get very mad when he uses ridiculous hyperbole that is untrue in order to deflect the topic. 

He knows saying I cause more problems than anyone EVER will set me off when I have worked so hard to help my oldest daughter negotiate a 6 figure salary while dealing with his nephew over here stealing, getting drunk and high and begging me not to tell him. He has brought a huge amount of stress to me and I am grieving the loss of my mother, he acts like I am causing all the problems because I can't deal with this level of stress right now.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

I guess it is a host of things. First, forgetting about the email that broke my heart, and then getting mad at ME when I ask him about this. Second, his extreme distance, he is avoiding eye contact and physical contact at all costs. Third, his ridiculous defensiveness and refusal to answer direct questions:

Me: We can't keep avoiding the issues in our relationship, did you forget about me, or her?

Him: We have already gone over this and I am not going to fight with you today.

Me: We have never gone over this and I really need to know why you felt the need to repeat this stupid Carls Jr thing every weekend for over a month.

Him: I just wasn't thinking

(Said to self, not outloud) For six weeks?!

Me: But even before this happened you seem to be avoiding me and only making small talk, what is going on?

Him: I am just a little stressed about finances

Me: Well so am I !!, but I am not being mean to you because of it, bringing up painful past episodes and avoiding you like the black death, what is going on with you?

Him: You are just causing problems for no reason, I need to get ready for work (Walks out of the room)

THIS IS WHY NOTHING EVER GETS RESOLVED


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

RWB said:


> DDD,
> 
> Have you and your H been faithful while married?


You know I am really not sure. He had an app on hs phone where you can chat and masturbate together online with others. Is this cheating? I think so. BECAUSE THEY GIVE AGE SEX LOCATION like you can do this with someone in your city and if you like them them who knows [email protected]#%^#^$%(^@%(*^%)&^()*????????!

He says its just porn - I say this is truly borderline full on infidelity


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I'll be a bad guy here but I think you need to let it go. I don't think he mentioned Carls Jr to upset you, I doubt very much that he wants to keep having this argument. He likely just forgot. 

If by this point you can't let it be in the past and not keep bringing it up and having fights about it, it is probably best to separate. You can't stay in this middle ground of together but not happy. You either put the past in the past and move forward or you can't accept it and move on. Neither choice makes you a bad person, it's just what you can accept or not. 
You can't choose to not accept and stay together because this will just keep happening over and over again.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'll be a bad guy here but I think you need to let it go. I don't think he mentioned Carls Jr to upset you, I doubt very much that he wants to keep having this argument. He likely just forgot.
> 
> If by this point you can't let it be in the past and not keep bringing it up and having fights about it, it is probably best to separate. You can't stay in this middle ground of together but not happy. You either put the past in the past and move forward or you can't accept it and move on. Neither choice makes you a bad person, it's just what you can accept or not.
> You can't choose to not accept and stay together because this will just keep happening over and over again.


I agree, but its not even about that anymore. Its not ME being unable to "let it go", its about the way he is acting now, bringing it up repeatedly, never resolving any problems, avoiding even being i the same room with me. I left the house today because just didnt want to have to deal with him getting up and ignoring me, we had a good lfe, its been 13 years, I didn't do ANYTHING, except not want to hear about it. I guess I am in the wrong and should give him his freedom from being married to me.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

This really sucks because I still don't know what I did wrong or why I have to lose my marriage now


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I agree, but its not even about that anymore. Its not ME being unable to "let it go", its about the way he is acting now, bringing it up repeatedly, never resolving any problems, avoiding even being i the same room with me. I left the house today because just didnt want to have to deal with him getting up and ignoring me, we had a good lfe, its been 13 years, I didn't do ANYTHING, except not want to hear about it. I guess I am in the wrong and should give him his freedom from being married to me.


I wouldn't consider mentioning Carl's Jrs "bringing it up". Very likely he didn't have that association in his head and wasn't thinking about that incident at all when he mentioned wanting to go there. That started a fight. People like to avoid fights and if he feels like he can't win or lose with you because it will always find a way back to these past incidents then I can understand the avoiding. There's no way he can resolve this because he can't change the past. All he feels he can do now is tip toe around the egg shells and try not to say something that will start another fight. 

Letting it go means not getting upset when something that reminds you of it slips out. You should be a safe place for him.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I wouldn't consider mentioning Carl's Jrs "bringing it up". Very likely he didn't have that association in his head and wasn't thinking about that incident at all when he mentioned wanting to go there. That started a fight. People like to avoid fights and if he feels like he can't win or lose with you because it will always find a way back to these past incidents then I can understand the avoiding. There's no way he can resolve this because he can't change the past. All he feels he can do now is tip toe around the egg shells and try not to say something that will start another fight.
> 
> Letting it go means not getting upset when something that reminds you of it slips out. You should be a safe place for him.


I feel like I did let it go. The first, second and third time-----I did not do anything till after maybe the 6th time at which point I felt he was intentionally mentioning it to upset me and start a fight.

Which is what happened. He will not say a word to me now, Yesterday he came home and did not even acknowledge I was there. Not one word. This morning he got up and get ready for work and again, refused to acknowledge my existence. So for someone who doesn't want to fight, he is doing it wrong.

I have asked him whats going on and he walks out of the room. This was 2 days ago. He refuses to discuss the issue at all or any other issue. I honestly don't know if he is going to file for a divorce. My heart is broken. I need a safe place as well. I feel like my marriage is over. I can't stop crying. I feel like ANY reassurance from him will not be forthcoming and its hard to focus on all the work I am behind on. I am lost.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You did do something the first 3 times. You got upset. You didn't say anything but you let anger build up in you until it created a fight. You haven't let it go. You need to understand this is your issue and not your husbands. You need to deal with your own emotions about it without putting them on him. 

He can not spend the rest of his life having to deal with you not forgiving and forgetting about this. 

His behavior now isn't productive but what are his choices? 

Tell you that you're being unreasonable and irrational and he's upset? 

Or agree with you and apologize for something he doesn't feel is wrong to avoid a fight? 

Understand he is upset too and has reason to be. If you can't start there then he will never feel he can discuss with you. He can not be just wrong and bad. You overreacted. You need to own your own side.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't understand your post DDD. You both are on a break years ago, he is asking you not to date while he is? Is that that the root cause? Where you dating others while he was dating people on his way to your house asking you not to date people and you found out he was - which included a Carl Jrs oral sex reference?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You did do something the first 3 times. You got upset. You didn't say anything but you let anger build up in you until it created a fight. You haven't let it go. You need to understand this is your issue and not your husbands. You need to deal with your own emotions about it without putting them on him.
> 
> He can not spend the rest of his life having to deal with you not forgiving and forgetting about this.
> 
> ...


Maybe I wasn't very clear. I can understand what you are saying if the case is that he simply "forgot" the email. But that isn't the case. He did not forget. He knew exactly what I meant when I told him I will never want to go there for the rest of my life. Maybe I did overreact to being lied to and betrayed so long ago. I read a lot of betrayed stories on here and don't remember anyone telling someone who was cheated on that its their issue. I disagree that this is my issue. He is the one who created this issue.

If the choice is he has to admit he was wrong then boo hoo, admit it! Say you're freaking sorry for repeatedly reminding your wife about your sex playmates! And then giving her the silent treatment if she doesn't like it!

I can't imagine treating him this way. 

If your stance is true and he didn't do it on purpose, then all he has to do is say, "let's not fight anymore, it was a long time ago and I never meant to bring this up to hurt you, I just forgot. I love you" he could say _anything_ close to this and it would be finished.

He prefers to blame me for everything and shut down, so no, I don't think I deserve it.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I don't understand your post DDD. You both are on a break years ago, he is asking you not to date while he is? Is that that the root cause? Where you dating others while he was dating people on his way to your house asking you not to date people and you found out he was - which included a Carl Jrs oral sex reference?


We were broken up yes, years ago, but almost every day he would call, email or come over trying to get back together. I was heartbroken, I missed him but I was very hesitant because it seemed like he was not ready to settle down. He insisted we were soulmates and he couldn't stand the thought of me with another man. We started talking about it and we spent the night together a few times. One morning I got up, we were at my house and I saw the email. He had been seeing her the entire time. There was a reference to Carl's Jr. and her saying she couldn't wait to "service" him again at his sister's house at their "usual" time. He saw that I saw it and I had a meltdown and chased him out of the house with a mallet ala Elin Woods.

And no, I was not seeing anyone else.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

He forgot in the moment. He wasn't thinking about it. He was not suggesting Carl's jr because of the email he sent years ago. He just wanted to eat there. 

It wasn't cheating as you were not together at the time. He did not betray your marriage vows. 

You accepted it by staying with him and marrying him. That means you drop it. You move on from it. You don't bring up the past anymore. 

No, he wasn't wrong for saying he wanted to go to Carl's jr and that it reminded you of the email that you have brought up to him and fought over again and again over the years 
He should not have to admit he was wrong here. You were. 

If needed you could have "babe,
Please don't talk about Carl's jr. It still upsets me" but you didn't. You freaked and yelled and fought. 

You should be the one apologizing and maybe offering to go to IC to help you move forward and not bring it up anymore. It's not healthy to be trapped where you are after so many years and it will, and has, pushed him away.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

If I was your husbands friend I would advise him to buy you roses and apologize for hurting your feelings. Then take you out on a date with drinks followed by wild sex in the bathroom of Carl Jrs, telling you why he is with you and not her after all these years and how he has never looked back. And after you both can pig out on whatever you want to eat at Carl Jrs and laugh about this.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He forgot in the moment. He wasn't thinking about it. He was not suggesting Carl's jr because of the email he sent years ago. He just wanted to eat there.
> 
> It wasn't cheating as you were not together at the time. He did not betray your marriage vows.
> 
> ...


First of all, we fought about it ONCE the day it happened and I did not stay with him. We have never fought about it "over the years". I didn't see him for YEARS after it happened. It severed us permanently. It was a betrayal. He was cheating.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

^ if she is able to laugh about it but at this point he is having to walk on egg shells to avoid her blowing up. My guess is just driving her to the Carl's Jr would result in another fight. 

She needs to work on herself letting it go. Apologizing for blowing up at her husband and holding this over him for so many years. No one can live like that. I would have left by now. 
It is, IMO, bordering on abusive to continue to blow up at him over this issue.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> First of all, we fought about it ONCE the day it happened and I did not stay with him. We have never fought about it "over the years". I didn't see him for YEARS after it happened. It severed us permanently. It was a betrayal. He was cheating.


But then you married him. You accepted him as is when you married him after. You don't get to continue to hold on this. It is in the past. You two weren't completely together. You decided later to marry him knowing this. 
If you could not let it go you should not have married him after. He does not deserve to live with it hanging over his head.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> First of all, we fought about it ONCE the day it happened and I did not stay with him. We have never fought about it "over the years". I didn't see him for YEARS after it happened. It severed us permanently. It was a betrayal. He was cheating.


Where you dating other people during this break?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He forgot in the moment. He wasn't thinking about it. He was not suggesting Carl's jr because of the email he sent years ago. He just wanted to eat there.
> 
> It wasn't cheating as you were not together at the time. He did not betray your marriage vows.
> 
> ...


Look, he was sleeping with other women AND sleeping with me, ok? He knows I would never go for that, therefore he hid it from me. No we weren't married at the time, but is it only a betrayal if you are married?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Where you dating other people during this break?


There has never been a time when I dated him and anyone else. It took me 8 months to even have dinner with someone else and all I did was miss him. I never had another relationship, I had some dates but I was in love with him so I never moved on. I just worked a lot.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Look, he was sleeping with other women AND sleeping with me, ok? He knows I would never go for that, therefore he hid it from me. No we weren't married at the time, but is it only a betrayal if you are married?


No but unless you were both on the same page about it being monogamous despite not being together it is not cheating. Or if it was to you and you can't move past it then you shouldn't have married him later. 

It's ok to not be able to get over what he did but it's not ok to decide to marry him and blow up at him years later because you aren't ok with what he did. 

You accept them or you don't. 

He made a silly mistake of mentioning a place he emailed a woman he was sleeping with about over a decade ago during a time you were on again off again and have since had time apart and then married. 

You didn't just ask him not to. You freaked out on him. You belittled him, insulted him. He has a right to be upset by what you did and you're not giving him any wiggle room. He's just wrong, you're right and that's that. And then you wonder why he's not talking to you. There's nothing to say.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But then you married him. You accepted him as is when you married him after. You don't get to continue to hold on this. It is in the past. You two weren't completely together. You decided later to marry him knowing this.
> If you could not let it go you should not have married him after. He does not deserve to live with it hanging over his head.


Nothing is hanging over his head. I never brought it up once in almost 14 years of marriage. As I said previously. Its not something we have ever talked about and to be honest, I had forgotten about it until he mentioned it. Over and over and over and over and over.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Look, he was sleeping with other women AND sleeping with me, ok? He knows I would never go for that, therefore he hid it from me. No we weren't married at the time, but is it only a betrayal if you are married?


it is a betrayal, you called him on it and broke up with him. But by marrying him years later you have for all practical purposes forgiven him. Not fair to harp on it now. 

If you truly regret marrying him tell him so and then prepare for the coming divorce.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> There has never been a time when I dated him and anyone else. It took me 8 months to even have dinner with someone else and all I did was miss him. I never had another relationship, I had some dates but I was in love with him so I never moved on. I just worked a lot.


I understand now. he was trying to get back together with you while fooling around with someone else. You yourself were not dating at the same time and sexually active with anyone else.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> it is a betrayal, you called him on it and broke up with him. But by marrying him years later you have for all practical purposes forgiven him. Not fair to harp on it now.
> 
> If you truly regret marrying him tell him so and then prepare for the coming divorce.


I tend to agree with this. What exactly do you want or need from him. If you could perhaps articulate that and share with us then we would know where you are coming from. You already know the kind of guy he was when you married him so what is is you need to get past this.

Then, if you can articulate that, perhaps you can actually tie him down into a good discussion about how all of this makes you feel, if he is unwilling to talk about it, then you have to either drop it or decide you cannot live with it, and leave him.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> ^ if she is able to laugh about it but at this point he is having to walk on egg shells to avoid her blowing up. My guess is just driving her to the Carl's Jr would result in another fight.
> 
> She needs to work on herself letting it go. Apologizing for blowing up at her husband and holding this over him for so many years. No one can live like that. I would have left by now.
> It is, IMO, bordering on abusive to continue to blow up at him over this issue.


I havent held anything over his head for years, what the hell, I am not blowing up at anything. You would have left by now? For what? "holding this over him for years" are you kidding? I never mentioned it once!

THE HOUSE IS SILENT no one is blowing up. No one is talking.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I havent held anything over his head for years, what the hell, I am not blowing up at anything. You would have left by now? For what? "holding this over him for years" are you kidding? I never mentioned it once!
> 
> THE HOUSE IS SILENT no one is blowing up. No one is talking.


Is this below the first time you've ever said anything about it since marriage?

"[email protected]#$%!!! NO. I will never want to go to Carl's Jr. for the rest of my life. You need to stop suggesting it. Do you need me to tell you why!?" (The look on his face says it all) No, he says. But I enlighten him, just so there are no misunderstandings in the future. I also point out the irony of listening to him complain about all the "clueless" people he has to deal with!

During this, he looks pained, gets mad at me for providing the details he clearly needs. Then he says, "What about everything you have done." What?!


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Is this below the first time you've ever said anything about it since marriage?
> 
> "[email protected]#$%!!! NO. I will never want to go to Carl's Jr. for the rest of my life. You need to stop suggesting it. Do you need me to tell you why!?" (The look on his face says it all) No, he says. But I enlighten him, just so there are no misunderstandings in the future. I also point out the irony of listening to him complain about all the "clueless" people he has to deal with!
> 
> During this, he looks pained, gets mad at me for providing the details he clearly needs. Then he says, "What about everything you have done." What?!


YES.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Again here, he is telling you he wasn't thinking about the email (which he obviously wasn't) and he is done discussing the email. Done. You have to drop it. It was ages ago, before you were married and is now a closed subject. He didn't bring it up, you did. Now you're getting upset with him for "bringing up painful past episodes" and starting fights when you are the one doing it. He doesn't want to fight. He's avoiding fighting. You are causing problems for no reason. Stop. 



dropdeaddiva said:


> I guess it is a host of things. First, forgetting about the email that broke my heart, and then getting mad at ME when I ask him about this. Second, his extreme distance, he is avoiding eye contact and physical contact at all costs. Third, his ridiculous defensiveness and refusal to answer direct questions:
> 
> Me: We can't keep avoiding the issues in our relationship, did you forget about me, or her?
> 
> ...


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

And he isn't walking on eggshells around me. He is giving me the silent treatment because he is mad.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Again here, he is telling you he wasn't thinking about the email (which he obviously wasn't) and he is done discussing the email. Done. You have to drop it. It was ages ago, before you were married and is now a closed subject. He didn't bring it up, you did. Now you're getting upset with him for "bringing up painful past episodes" and starting fights when you are the one doing it. He doesn't want to fight. He's avoiding fighting. You are causing problems for no reason. Stop.


The silent treatment IS fighting. Making up and loving each other would be not fighting.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

aine said:


> I tend to agree with this. What exactly do you want or need from him. If you could perhaps articulate that and share with us then we would know where you are coming from. You already know the kind of guy he was when you married him so what is is you need to get past this.
> 
> Then, if you can articulate that, perhaps you can actually tie him down into a good discussion about how all of this makes you feel, if he is unwilling to talk about it, then you have to either drop it or decide you cannot live with it, and leave him.


I did post what would resolve it quickly. But he is going to drag it out for days of silence.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> And he isn't walking on eggshells around me. He is giving me the silent treatment because he is mad.


He's mad and sick of fighting. When he tried to talk to you (the I wasn't thinking conversation) you continued to fight. So now he stopped talking to you. I don't believe in the silent treatment but I do understand his want to just avoid this and the fighting.

You behaved poorly. Maybe you were mad too but you did not handle things properly. Have you apologized for blowing up? Have you apologized for bringing it up and fighting about it? All I see if you feeling like he was wrong.


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## twoofus (Jun 16, 2017)

Never having visited a Carl's Jr. I'm intrigued why it is such a controversial chain. Even more of a mystery is why they have placed the apostrophe in the name.
Is the food good? Perhaps I will visit one next time I'm in the USA.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He's mad and sick of fighting. When he tried to talk to you (the I wasn't thinking conversation) you continued to fight. So now he stopped talking to you. I don't believe in the silent treatment but I do understand his want to just avoid this and the fighting.
> 
> You behaved poorly. Maybe you were mad too but you did not handle things properly. Have you apologized for blowing up? Have you apologized for bringing it up and fighting about it? All I see if you feeling like he was wrong.


Is this what you tell people who get cheated on? Well, yeah I had what people here call a trigger. People used to have sympathy on TAM for betrayals. I get it, I handled myself poorly. I don't think I should apologize for still being hurt when reminded that he was sleeping with other women and me. It still hurts. He lied right to my face. He knows he was wrong. That's why he also has not brought it up for our entire marriage. Until now. And can you please stop saying I brought it up. I did not. I NEVER would mention it. He brought it up. 

You don't know how HE has acted toward me when a trigger memory gets to him about anyone I have ever dated once. And I never slept with him and someone else, I was always dedicated to him. Yes, during the years he was gone with his endless string of girlfriends, he has never accepted that I should have been with anyone after him because we were soulmates. I never mention anything related to any of them ever. It would hurt him. And I don't want to hurt him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I get why you are upset but dealing with stuff means dealing with it bringing up when it bothers you not pretending it doesn't. The reason it still has power is because you don't talk about it. You let it prevent you from eating at the place because the name is the same as a word that was written in an email that hurt you. It's the email that hurt you not the restaurant. Deal with the hurt don't avoid the restaurant.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I get why you are upset but dealing with stuff means dealing with it bringing up when it bothers you not pretending it doesn't. The reason it still has power is because you don't talk about it. You let it prevent you from eating at the place because the name is the same as a word that was written in an email that hurt you. It's the email that hurt you not the restaurant. Deal with the hurt don't avoid the restaurant.


It is the email that broke my heart. They used to go there together after their "usual time". I will never want to go there. He called her beautiful. He had just slept with me the night before.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I still feel bad. I am trying to feel better and he apologized, I guess. But I am not feeling it. I want to know how could you forget about the email that broke my heart? He obviously wasn't ready to be married at that point in his life. But I was. There is no one in the world I wanted to marry besides him, I didn't have to think about it.
> 
> It wasn't me going over to his house trying to work things out while having lovers on the side, it was him.


He may NOT have forgotten that the email broke your heart but still not get that the mention of the restaurant is the big trigger. 

The whole post screams that you two need to have a bunch of long hard talks about the past and both you need to accept what happened and learn to forgive if you want to stay together. Personally he cheated on you again so I can't see why you would, but if you do you can't be expecting him to understand what things are going to set you off if you don't talk about it. By the way I don't think everyone works like you with the restaurant deal. I never had this places or things trigger bad memories thing. Mine was always stories or just random things. So don't discount him not understanding that if you haven't said it. 

And the things set you off because you have avoided them for years and years so of course when they come up they are going to seem like giant FUs. When maybe he just likes the Hamburgers and was craving one. 

This is not me saying you don't have a right to be hurt, but it is me saying you are not going about dealing with it the right way. Emotional hurts are like mold they grow in the cold and dark. Some sunshine and a good cleaning help. Talk about this stuff maybe with a MC.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Is this what you tell people who get cheated on? Well, yeah I had what people here call a trigger. People used to have sympathy on TAM for betrayals. I get it, I handled myself poorly. I don't think I should apologize for still being hurt when reminded that he was sleeping with other women and me. It still hurts. He lied right to my face. He knows he was wrong. That's why he also has not brought it up for our entire marriage. Until now. And can you please stop saying I brought it up. I did not. I NEVER would mention it. He brought it up.
> 
> You don't know how HE has acted toward me when a trigger memory gets to him about anyone I have ever dated once. And I never slept with him and someone else, I was always dedicated to him. Yes, during the years he was gone with his endless string of girlfriends, he has never accepted that I should have been with anyone after him because we were soulmates. I never mention anything related to any of them ever. It would hurt him. And I don't want to hurt him.


I don't consider it an affair. When he cheated you were not together, you did not have an expressed rule of monogamy during that time. 
But even if you feel it was, again you agreed to marry him after he cheated. 

He only mentioned Carl's Jr. That was not him bringing it up. He wasn't talking about that woman or the email or that time. He did not bring it up.
You brought it up when you freaked at him over suggesting Carl's Jr. 

If you didn't date anyone else, that was your choice. Even if he said you were soulmates, you had the option to date during that time if you wanted to. He made his own choices. You knew his past and sexual partners when you married him and therefore accepted him as is. 

You can't blame him for your choices. You were single 8 months after this happened? Longer? You chose not to date others, that's not his fault. You also chose not to date while you were on and off again, not because it was a committed relationship but because you were soulmates. It sounds like you somehow blame you not dating others on him too. 

You chose to marry him, knowing what he did. You chose to not date anyone else even when you and he were both single. You chose to blow up when he wanted to go to Carl's Jr.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

sokillme said:


> He may NOT have forgotten that the email broke your heart but still not get that the mention of the restaurant is the big trigger.
> 
> The whole post screams that you two need to have a bunch of long hard talks about the past and both you need to accept what happened and learn to forgive if you want to stay together. Personally he cheated on you again so I can't see why you would, but if you do you can't be expecting him to understand what things are going to set you off if you don't talk about it. By the way I don't think everyone works like you with the restaurant deal. I never had this places or things trigger bad memories thing. Mine was always stories or just random things. So don't discount him not understanding that if you haven't said it.
> 
> ...


He won't talk to me about it. So....that won't be happening. He is doing what goingcrazy said, blaming me and refusing to discuss it further. Period.


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## lisamaree (Nov 2, 2014)

Do you really think your husband meant to refresh the pain or do you think there’s a chance he just really likes Carl’s Jr? I know as women we remember everything, but men do not seem to remember the date, time,
event, etc the same as we do…. And why would he do such a thing? It definitely seems odd that he would bring up his issues purposely to hurt you, because it’s probably causing him more problems than it was worth if so.

I’m not going to tell you not to talk about it, because it’s obviously something that still hurts you. You can’t even go to a restaurant chain because the memory is too painful for you. But I do think there is a better way for you to approach this with him.

I’m assuming you want to save your marriage. So I feel you need to open up the communication and it needs to go both ways. You need to think about if you can forgive him, and what he needs to do to be forgiven. Then you need to list out all of your needs for forgiveness, and give them to him (you also have to be reasonable). Allow him an opportunity to do the same for you. And you need to listen, and he needs to listen to you. Don’t react aggressively or in defense. Truly listen to him and request the same of him… Accept his perception of you, and work to fix it (hopefully he will do the same for you). Try to be objective. Then decide if you both can do the things necessary for forgiveness. If not, then you need to re-evaluate if you can be happy with who he is. This is who you accepted when you agreed to marry, and you have to decide if you can be fair and still accept him or if you can live with letting him go… But having a sudden outburst is not going to get you anywhere, it shuts down the conversation and creates a hostile environment which you are already seeing. 

I definitely feel there is another side to this story.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> He won't talk to me about it. So....that won't be happening. He is doing what goingcrazy said, blaming me and refusing to discuss it further. Period.


See, that would be unacceptable to me. If something triggered me decades after the fact, and I told him about it, and he reacted in ANY way other than to fall over himself apologizing again (yes, AGAIN) for all the crap he put me through even that long ago, I'd be single again in record time.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Look, he was sleeping with other women AND sleeping with me, ok? He knows I would never go for that, therefore he hid it from me. No we weren't married at the time, but is it only a betrayal if you are married?


Did you make this known? I mean was there any talk about being serious or a couple. From your posts it sounds like he wanted to be with you but you didn't think he was ready so you basically said, nah but still hung out with him. So then he had other girlfriends thinking you weren't interested in him that way. However your feelings changed at some point but you never told him you just expected him to read your mind. 

Kind of like this restaurant thing. You just expect him to know this without saying it. You seem to do that a lot. Look most guys are not going to be this subtle, but in this case I think even the most perceptive is not going to get this. You need to learn to speak up and deal with this stuff.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> See, that would be unacceptable to me. If something triggered me decades after the fact, and I told him about it, and he reacted in ANY way other than to fall over himself apologizing again (yes, AGAIN) for all the crap he put me through even that long ago, I'd be single again in record time.


That is different. An affair is different. 

They were not in a committed relationship at the time. They stopped seeing each other and then much later she chose to marry him.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

lisamaree said:


> Do you really think your husband meant to refresh the pain or do you think there’s a chance he just really likes Carl’s Jr? I know as women we remember everything, but men do not seem to remember the date, time,
> event, etc the same as we do…. And why would he do such a thing? It definitely seems odd that he would bring up his issues purposely to hurt you, because it’s probably causing him more problems than it was worth if so.
> 
> I’m not going to tell you not to talk about it, because it’s obviously something that still hurts you. You can’t even go to a restaurant chain because the memory is too painful for you. But I do think there is a better way for you to approach this with him.
> ...


What am I leaving out? They used to go there together after sex, why would I ever want to go there? Believe me, if my husband knew I went to a place with someone after sex, he would burn the building to the ground. Why would he suggest it to me, I will never know. Maybe he has been thinking of her I don't know. I know we need to talk but it will never happen.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> He won't talk to me about it. So....that won't be happening. He is doing what goingcrazy said, blaming me and refusing to discuss it further. Period.


I was married to someone just like this. It got to the point that one night I was so desperate to resolve something I BEGGED him to discuss it. His reaction? He took the dog and went to live in our R.V. for several days. NOTHING was ever discussed in an honest, open matter. NOTHING.

Was my husband the love of my life? Yeah, he was. But that was on me, not him. Why? Because I was NOT the love of his life. He could disengage and simply refuse to deal with issues. Me? I got into serious IC, Al-Anon, and worked on myself.

I walked out on the marriage. For me, it wasn't a real marriage without transparency. Neither partner felt safe or unthreatened when airing grievances. We never divorced. In fact, I believe he wanted a reconciliation prior to his untimely death.

Do I regret walking away? Nope. Not one single day. I couldn't live in an emotional vacuum with someone who was unable to get on the same page with me.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

I cannot imagine you two have not spent this many years together and not had bitter arguments and not figured out how to get past them and stay happily married. I find it hard to believe an absolute gauntlet has been thrown down and you two cannot get past this. When you two have had other bitter arguments in the past how did you work it out?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> That is different. An affair is different.
> 
> They were not in a committed relationship at the time. They stopped seeing each other and then much later she chose to marry him.


We were still sleeping together, I was still in love with him and he knew it, I was hesitant to get married because he was always cruising for other women and I didn't think he was serious about marriage. This is the reason we broke up for years after, because I was obviously right.

It was still a betrayal. He would have killed me if I had been with another man during that time. He would have considered it cheating, and told me so. It was too soon for me to see anyone, we were soulmates. Meanwhile he had his chickiepoo on the side.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> We were still sleeping together, I was still in love with him and he knew it, I was hesitant to get married because he was always cruising for other women and I didn't think he was serious about marriage. This is the reason we broke up for years after, because I was obviously right.
> 
> It was still a betrayal. He would have killed me if I had been with another man during that time. He would have considered it cheating, and told me so. It was too soon for me to see anyone, we were soulmates. Meanwhile he had his chickiepoo on the side.


So this was years before you decided to marry him. If you consider it cheating then it's cheating. I don't but I'm not you so it doesn't matter. BUT years after this happened you decided to marry him. That means past is forgiven and is moved on from. If you could not accept what had happened you should not have married him. 

I do not believe that he in any way whatsoever mentioned going to Carl's Jr as a link to this event. It wasn't even in his head at the time. He had forgotten all about her and just wanted to go there to eat. 

You made it into an issue. Instead of saying "Babe, you talking about that place upsets me. Please don't do it anymore" you blew up, were insulting and kept insisting that he brought it up and you've even said he apologized to you about it and he did try to tell you that he just wasn't thinking and the script you posted of how it went sounds like you were very combative and set in him being wrong. 
You need to be able to own your own part in this, apologize for it and accept his answer of "he wasn't thinking" about it when he mentioned it. 
_Then _maybe you can get to a discussion but not when you're so sure you're right and he's wrong and you won't budge or back down. A discussion includes you listening to what he is saying too (that you're making a big deal out of nothing) 
Him talking about it does not mean he has to agree with you.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> I cannot imagine you two have not spent this many years together and not had bitter arguments and not figured out how to get past them and stay happily married. I find it hard to believe an absolute gauntlet has been thrown down and you two cannot get past this. When you two have had other bitter arguments in the past how did you work it out?


Someone gets mad, theres a fight, then the silent treatment til he decides to talk again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

twoofus said:


> Never having visited a Carl's Jr. I'm intrigued why it is such a controversial chain. Even more of a mystery is why they have placed the apostrophe in the name.
> Is the food good? Perhaps I will visit one next time I'm in the USA.


They make good hamburgers YouTube the name you will see the commercials are racy by American standards. The ad campaign was pretty much just starting when it seems this all blew up years ago. They most recently stopped doing ads like this because some delicate flowers were feeling intense pain watching them. None of this seems to be OP's issue as the restaurant really is just an symptom of the problem of the passive aggressiveness of both spouses not dealing with the fallout of what happened around that time yet expecting them to understand what each other is feeling and how they will react from intuition.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So this was years before you decided to marry him. If you consider it cheating then it's cheating. I don't but I'm not you so it doesn't matter. BUT years after this happened you decided to marry him. That means past is forgiven and is moved on from. If you could not accept what had happened you should not have married him.
> 
> I do not believe that he in any way whatsoever mentioned going to Carl's Jr as a link to this event. It wasn't even in his head at the time. He had forgotten all about her and just wanted to go there to eat.
> 
> ...


Yep. Thats what I should have said. And then just cried in the shower. I miss my Mom. Maybe I would have handled it better if she were here. I could always talk to her. I think him being this mad at me is wrong. When he came home last night I was in the garden. I heard him walk out onto the back deck and sit down to have a smoke. He didn't even attempt to check in with me. I was going to make dinner but I could tell he was in silent mode so I just went to bed in the extra room. This morning he walked past the open door several times getting ready for work and left without looking at me. No dinner, no coffee together this morning, , no kisses, no love, no words. Just nothing.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> It is the email that broke my heart. They used to go there together after their "usual time". I will never want to go there. He called her beautiful. He had just slept with me the night before.


Hun, you need to take the chance and be vulnerable and tell him this, THIS not "I hate that stupid restaurant you and your ***** went to, I will never go there again" Then let the chips fall where they may. That is how you entreat a man who loves you. A good man this will break his heart and he will get it and be acquiescent. If that happens you will heal. If not then at least you know. 

This passive aggressive stuff you are doing is NOT going to work no matter what your intentions.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

He has a reason to be mad at you. You need to own up to that. You were rude, combative, insulting and accused him of things he didn't do (talking about Carl's jr on purpose) that's not someone a spouse wants to kiss and love and have dinner with. 

Nothing will get resolved if you refuse to own up to your own part. 

You can not expect him to agree with you. 
He apologized. It wasn't enough. He told you he wasn't thinking about it. It wasn't enough. 


If you asked him, how many times would HE say you've gotten angry about this cheating incident since married? More than just this one time?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

How about looking at all the wonderful things about your husband NOW...and how about you both celebrate all of the awesome things in your marriage, NOW. You say he is the love of your life, then embrace that. 

If he were cheating NOW...or after you married, I'd see this differently, but you married him and love him. And he sounds like he loves you. Love is hard to find, and fighting over ghosts from the past, seems like you're wasting time. Just my opinion.

A lot of times when we have this kind of anger though, there's something going on inside of US. That's what you should try to figure out, why are you so angry and where is it really coming from?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He has a reason to be mad at you. You need to own up to that. You were rude, combative, insulting and accused him of things he didn't do (talking about Carl's jr on purpose) that's not someone a spouse wants to kiss and love and have dinner with.
> 
> Nothing will get resolved if you refuse to own up to your own part.
> 
> ...


He would say, no she's got way more mad about the other women.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> He would say, no she's got way more mad about the other women.


Any woman from before you were married or in a committed relationship that expressly was monogamous should have been dropped once you made the choice to be with him and marry him 

You had years apart from each other. Your choice to not sleep with others didn't have to be the same choice he made. Just because you were soul mates does not mean he can't sleep with other women. You weren't together. 

How often do you bring up these women?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Why are you mad about women your husband slept with before you got married? Or when you ''technically'' weren't ''together?'' This is such wasted energy. Your husband could empathize with you, but at the same time, it's unfair to keep bringing this up. These women are long gone, and he sounds like he's been a faithful husband.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

dropdeaddiva said:


> He would say, no she's got way more mad about the other women.


The online escapades that we almost divorced over. I moved out. For 3 months. He asked me to come home and I did. We worked hard to stay together. That was a couple years ago. Then, I almost died and he took care of me. Stayed with me in the hospital, helped me when I got home with tubes coming out of my body like a medical torture experiment. We came back closer than ever, we have been having a happy marriage for the first time in a long time.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Any woman from before you were married or in a committed relationship that expressly was monogamous should have been dropped once you made the choice to be with him and marry him
> 
> You had years apart from each other. Your choice to not sleep with others didn't have to be the same choice he made. Just because you were soul mates does not mean he can't sleep with other women. You weren't together.
> 
> How often do you bring up these women?


I mean the ones SINCE we were married. The online sex partners. I was way more mad about them and started divorce paperwork and moved out.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I mean the ones SINCE we were married. The online sex partners.


They were those cam porn sites?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Any woman from before you were married or in a committed relationship that expressly was monogamous should have been dropped once you made the choice to be with him and marry him
> 
> You had years apart from each other. Your choice to not sleep with others didn't have to be the same choice he made. Just because you were soul mates does not mean he can't sleep with other women. You weren't together.
> 
> How often do you bring up these women?


I wonder if anyone is reading this thread, I will say it again I have NEVER brought up the Carl's Jr woman ever. I got triggered by it because he kept insisting he wanted to go there. I agree with everything you are saying BUT HE DOES NOT. And boy don't I know it doesn't mean he can't sleep with other women


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> They were those cam porn sites?


They were sites where you chat and masturbate together. Once again, he said it wasn't cheating.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Truly how would you expect him to remember and know that wanting to go to that restaurant would hurt you if you had years apart after it happened, then married and you *never* spoke of it the entire time? 

It sounds like you're just mad at him. Picking fights for reasons other than what you are fighting about.

Sometimes with my ex I'd get upset that he left his dish out with dried on mess. I'd fight over the stupid dish. It wasn't the dish. It was me feeling like I was being disrespected and taken for granted. 

I think you need to figure out what's behind your "dish" because it's not Carl's jr. Its not the women he saw well before you were married and together. 

Figuring out what that is will at least help you express it better because you're not communicating in any productive way with him right now.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Truly how would you expect him to remember and know that wanting to go to that restaurant would hurt you if you had years apart after it happened, then married and you *never* spoke of it the entire time?
> 
> It sounds like you're just mad at him. Picking fights for reasons other than what you are fighting about.
> 
> ...


Its not something else, it was the fact that he slept with me and her at the same time, while telling me I should not see anyone else. He wanted his cake and have some girls on the side. He was NOT ready to get married and kept stringing me along. I would have married him then had I not found out about her through that email. It changed my life.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

*Deidre* said:


> Why are you mad about women your husband slept with before you got married? Or when you ''technically'' weren't ''together?'' This is such wasted energy. Your husband could empathize with you, but at the same time, it's unfair to keep bringing this up. These women are long gone, and he sounds like he's been a faithful husband.


I do not keep bringing it up.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Its not something else, it was the fact that he slept with me and her at the same time, while telling me I should not see anyone else. He wanted his cake and have some girls on the side. He was NOT ready to get married and kept stringing me along. I would have married him then had I not found out about her through that email. It changed my life.


But this was years ago. You broke up for years after this happened and then chose to marry him. 

He wasn't ready to get married then. Doesn't make him a bad guy. You could have slept with other people too even if he said you shouldn't because you were soul mates. 

It's pretty shady to ask a girl your on and off again sleeping with to not sleep with anyone else while you are and I can fully understand not seeing him after you found out. 

But then years went by, you met again and got married. Past should have been left there. 

The cam sites, I can understand the problem. Some people don't think it's cheating, some do. What matters was your boundaries were broken. If this fight was about the cam sites I would understand it more. 

If you tried to go to him and say "babe, I'm sorry I lashed out like that. I didn't realize how much it still upset me. I should have expressed myself in a better way and you didn't deserve the hostility. I still have hurt feelings about what happened between us then and I think a counsellor would help us both get to where we can communicate better" would that work better to get him to talk and hopefully agree to MC to sort through it?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Look, forget about the damn hamburger chain for now and whether or not it was "technically" cheating while you were broken up. The main problem here is you two have HORRENDOUS communication skills which doesn't bode well for any marriage.

Am I understanding this correctly -- he has been giving you the silent treatment since this all happened and you first posted in MID JULY??!! No relationship can survive that kind of stonewalling.

My advice is to get yourselves into marriage counseling and learn how to communicate effectively with one another. And get yourself into individual counseling to figure out why you tolerate a man who won't speak to you for a month. This a very unhealthy dynamic. And this is not how "soulmates" (whatever that really means) treat each other. You sound very co-dependent, and he sounds stubborn and controlling.

Not a pretty picture.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But this was years ago. You broke up for years after this happened and then chose to marry him.
> 
> He wasn't ready to get married then. Doesn't make him a bad guy. You could have slept with other people too even if he said you shouldn't because you were soul mates.
> 
> ...


No, he won't go to MC. He feels we already went through all that with the online stuff. But, yes, it would work if I take all the blame and apologize to him. That will always work.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

happy as a clam said:


> Look, forget about the damn hamburger chain for now and whether or not it was "technically" cheating while you were broken up. The main problem here is you two have HORRENDOUS communication skills which doesn't bode well for any marriage.
> 
> Am I understanding this correctly -- he has been giving you the silent treatment since this all happened and you first posted in MID JULY??!! No relationship can survive that kind of stonewalling.
> 
> ...


BINGO!

No we have talked a couple times I believe I posted some dialogue here. He usually just walks out of the room in the middle of the conversation. So I give up. There is no point trying to talk to him unless he is ready to talk.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> No, he won't go to MC. He feels we already went through all that with the online stuff. But, yes, it would work if I take all the blame and apologize to him. That will always work.


But be specific that it's *not* MC for the cheating. It is so you can both learn to communicate better because you aren't right now. He needs a place where he can share his feelings with you listening and so do you. 
It's for you to learn too because you're not able to communicate in productive ways. 

You'd be appologizing for blowing up and accusing him. Not for "everything"


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But be specific that it's *not* MC for the cheating. It is so you can both learn to communicate better because you aren't right now. He needs a place where he can share his feelings with you listening and so do you.
> It's for you to learn too because you're not able to communicate in productive ways.
> 
> You'd be appologizing for blowing up and accusing him. Not for "everything"


I agree we need to communicate better. But when one person does not talk to you, it isn't possible.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> BINGO!
> 
> No we have talked a couple times I believe I posted some dialogue here. He usually just walks out of the room in the middle of the conversation. So I give up. There is no point trying to talk to him unless he is ready to talk.


He leaves when it gets combative. I do too. I will not continue a conversation with someone being angry and accusing me, being combative. I'll walk away until they can speak to me with respect. "I will not discuss this with you right now" and leave. 

The one conversation you posted was not respectful or productive and got combative. 

You were both yelling so loud the neighbors could hear at one point. 

This is not just a him problem. You are at fault too.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I agree we need to communicate better. But when one person does not talk to you, it isn't possible.


If you improved the way you spoke to him he would talk to you. 

The conversation you posted started with an accusation. 
Then continued to be aggressive and accusing. 
And he ended it when you said 

"Me: Well so am I !!, but I am not being mean to you because of it, bringing up painful past episodes and avoiding you like the black death, what is going on with you?"


For me that would be a conversation ender and I'd also walk away until you could discuss it in a more productive manner.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

OK, well thank you so much for all your help and support. I guess I am a terrible wife because this upsets me and I deserve the silent treatment and no love or understanding forever.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If you improved the way you spoke to him he would talk to you.


I'm not so sure about this. And with all due respect, I think she's getting a bit of a rough ride on this thread. 

He sounds conflict avoidant, that's why he leaves the room and refuses to talk to her. This kind of behavior is learned at a very young age and is a very pervasive pattern.

Sure she shouldn't have yelled, and she needs to improve how she relates to him. But who could blame her frustration now when he refuses to communicate about anything? It would make almost anyone snap and blow their lid.

OP, you need a firm line in the sand: he either goes to counseling for BOTH your sakes, so BOTH of you can learn to communicate effectively -- or you're out.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> OK, well thank you so much for all your help and support. I guess I am a terrible wife because this upsets me and I deserve the silent treatment and no love or understanding forever.


This is very dramatic. If this is the type of attitude your husband sees, it is not healthy and isn't something most people will deal with. 

My daughter does this. "Fine I guess I'll just be hungry forever because you don't love me anyway" when I make her eat her dinner. She's a child. It's not ok for a grown woman. I'm hoping it's just at
Me and you don't do this to your husband.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is very dramatic. If this is the type of attitude your husband sees, it is not healthy and isn't something most people will deal with.
> 
> My daughter does this. "Fine I guess I'll just be hungry forever because you don't love me anyway" when I make her eat her dinner. She's a child. It's not ok for a grown woman. I'm hoping it's just at
> Me and you don't do this to your husband.


I leave him alone when he wants to be left alone. But this seems to be your consensus:

You have no right to be angry, You are at fault, I wouldn't speak you you either. You need to apologize. I wouldn't want to have dinner with you either. I would have left you.

So yeah, I guess it is directed at you.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> I'm not so sure about this. And with all due respect, I think she's getting a bit of a rough ride on this thread.
> 
> He sounds conflict avoidant, that's why he leaves the room and refuses to talk to her. This kind of behavior is learned at a very young age and is a very pervasive pattern.
> 
> Sure she shouldn't have yelled, and she needs to improve how she relates to him. But who could blame her frustration now when he refuses to communicate about anything? It would make almost anyone snap and blow their lid.


He had already apologized to her when it was brought up again with that conversation where she was being accusing. They also already fought so loud about it the neighbors could hear. He feels it was discussed. How much discussion does that situation need when it was before they were together? 
How many times should he say sorry for mentioning Carl's jr?

No one should have to just accept being spoken to in that way in a conversation with someone who refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing of her own in the situation. 
And if she turns into the dramatic sympathy mindset with him too that is even worse. 

If a man came and said his wife was acting like that I would tell him to walk away when she starts to get combative. Don't let it turn into a yelling match again. You have a choice to not fight, walk away.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

You have to learn how to forgive him in your heart, @dropdeaddiva If you don't, you'll always be angry over the ghosts from the past. Those women are over, and meaningless to him, and should be to you. Maybe you're mad that you stayed with him after he was doing online things after you're married.

There comes a time though when you have to accept that maybe you expect too much of your husband. He apologized, and when he walks out of the room, he's just over it. You don't deserve silent treatment, but he doesn't deserve to have things brought up that he did when you weren't together. I think you have to figure out why you're not past this, because that part doesn't have anything to do with your husband.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I do not keep bringing it up.


I think that you were triggered, and it happens. Maybe you both could come up with a word that when you're triggered over something, you say, and he 'gets it.' I think that might help. I don't think your husband meant to hurt you.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I leave him alone when he wants to be left alone. But this seems to be your consensus:
> 
> You have no right to be angry, You are at fault, I wouldn't speak you you either. You need to apologize. I wouldn't want to have dinner with you either. I would have left you.
> 
> So yeah, I guess it is directed at you.


Your feelings of being angry over it is neither right or wrong. What I am saying is the way you handled it was wrong. 
You insulted him, yelled at him and accused him of doing something he didn't do. 
Ok, you were mad. If happens. I've blown my lid too before. Believe me Ive lost it and didn't handle my emotions right. 
But now you apologize, own your side and try to learn better for next time. 

This attitude of nope, he was all in the wrong and I was right and there's no wiggle room is not productive. That is what I would not want to kiss and love and eat dinner with. Adding the extreme emotions is even harder to deal with. 

You can be right to be mad but wrong in how you expressed it. He can also be right to not feel you should be mad. That's his feelings.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

*Deidre* said:


> You have to learn how to forgive him in your heart, @dropdeaddiva If you don't, you'll always be angry over the ghosts from the past. Those women are over, and meaningless to him, and should be to you. Maybe you're mad that you stayed with him after he was doing online things after you're married.
> 
> There comes a time though when you have to accept that maybe you expect too much of your husband. He apologized, and when he walks out of the room, he's just over it. You don't deserve silent treatment, but he doesn't deserve to have things brought up that he did when you weren't together. I think you have to figure out why you're not past this, because that part doesn't have anything to do with your husband.


I am mad that he was sleeping with her and me at the same time. I am not mad that I stayed with him after the online stuff, we have been through a lot together. I thought he would at least comfort me because I was shocked at how powerful the feelings were-and all he did was get mad and yell. We never discussed anything. And we never will. It is in the past and I have to let it go, but t really hurts a lot.

No, I don't think he should have to say he is sorry for mentioning Carls Jr, I think he should say he is sorry for lying to me and sleeping around on me, but I will never get that either because its all my fault now that I got angry, and it was a long time ago so I guess it doesn't count.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Your feelings of being angry over it is neither right or wrong. What I am saying is the way you handled it was wrong.
> You insulted him, yelled at him and accused him of doing something he didn't do.
> Ok, you were mad. If happens. I've blown my lid too before. Believe me Ive lost it and didn't handle my emotions right.
> But now you apologize, own your side and try to learn better for next time.
> ...


So he doesn't have to apologize for blowing his lid? I see...


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Comment in a bit.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> So he doesn't have to apologize for blowing his lid? I see...


All I have seen are the examples of when you did. I have not seen you post about him blowing his lid though I do miss things sometimes so I may have. 

You blew your lid at the Carl's jr thing and then again in the conversation you posted. And I've seen you talk about how he just leaves the room or ignores you but I've not seen where he blew his lid. 

If he is doing it as well then he does need to apologize for it too. 

But it sounds like you're simply unwilling to apologize to him for the initial outburst even though he apologized for talking about Carl's jr. 

I feel there's a playing up as the victim-ish thing going on when I read your posts and I may be way off but that's the initial impression I get. Obviously I don't know you well enough to have the whole pictures but with this specific situation, the way you are handling it isn't likely to make a man open up and communicate. They hate the victim role. So do women actually, it's not a gender thing. 

He needs to communicate better as he clearly sucks at it too. But the "too" is the point I'm trying to make. You aren't communicating in ways to make him want to. You both have to fix it. One or the other won't fix anything. You both have your own issues to solve here for it to work and if you can't see yours then you won't get anywhere.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Triple D, I think people here are taking the time here to read your thread and offer constructive criticism. You posted this issue in the Coping with Infidelity section concerning an event which occurred before you were married. The consensus here is that it's not infidelity because you were not married. He was two timing you and you dumped him and stayed apart for years. Then you married him. But now you insist on being allowed to be angry about this event but he cannot be annoyed by you bringing it up? Over a hamburger chain? 

You need to chill a bit on this. Seriously.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Triple D, I think people here are taking the time here to read your thread and offer constructive criticism. You posted this issue in the Coping with Infidelity section concerning an event which occurred before you were married. The consensus here is that it's not infidelity because you were not married. He was two timing you and you dumped him and stayed apart for years. Then you married him. But now you insist on being allowed to be angry about this event but he cannot be annoyed by you bringing it up? Over a hamburger chain?
> 
> You need to chill a bit on this. Seriously.


Honestly, its not over a hamburger chain. I posted here because he cheated and I thought I would get some support, I didn't know it was only cheating if you were married. He made it seem that we were meant to be and should stay together. I would have never slept with him after we broke up if I knew he had other partners. And he knew that, so he just lied.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Triple D, I think people here are taking the time here to read your thread and offer constructive criticism. You posted this issue in the Coping with Infidelity section concerning an event which occurred before you were married. The consensus here is that it's not infidelity because you were not married. He was two timing you and you dumped him and stayed apart for years. Then you married him. But now you insist on being allowed to be angry about this event but he cannot be annoyed by you bringing it up? Over a hamburger chain?
> 
> You need to chill a bit on this. Seriously.


I am not insisting that I be allowed angry outbursts. I am experiencing very strong feelings of pain and betrayal that I thought were long gone. Him being angry and silent is compounding the sense of betrayal.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Honestly, its not over a hamburger chain. I posted here because he cheated and I thought I would get some support, I didn't know it was only cheating if you were married. He made it seem that we were meant to be and should stay together. I would have never slept with him after we broke up if I knew he had other partners. And he knew that, so he just lied.


But you found out, dumped him, stayed apart for years then reconnected and got married. 

Are you upset that you married him?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I am mad that he was sleeping with her and me at the same time. I am not mad that I stayed with him after the online stuff, we have been through a lot together. I thought he would at least comfort me because I was shocked at how powerful the feelings were-and all he did was get mad and yell. We never discussed anything. And we never will. It is in the past and I have to let it go, but t really hurts a lot.
> 
> No, I don't think he should have to say he is sorry for mentioning Carls Jr, I think he should say he is sorry for lying to me and sleeping around on me, but I will never get that either because its all my fault now that I got angry, and it was a long time ago so I guess it doesn't count.


Did he ever apologize, though? If he did, he may think you 'should' be past it, but I hear you. You just want him to be present and let you vent when you feel triggered. I get it. I'm sorry that this is hurting you.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> But you found out, dumped him, stayed apart for years then reconnected and got married.
> 
> Are you upset that you married him?


No. I am just upset that he won't show me any understanding and compassion and is giving me the silent treatment like I was the one who lied to him about having other partners.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

During the years he was gone I briefly dated a drummer who had a song on the radio. Well, he found out about it after we got back together RIGHT before our wedding day. On the way home from the grocery store that song came on the radio. He went silent. I could literally feel him seething. We got home and he went into the bedroom, locked the door and did not speak for the rest of the night.

So he should understand how it feels. Its irrational, I know. But this is how it goes with anyone I ever dated. He treats it as a betrayal. I think he should be able to handle my response from his actual betrayal.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

I think its the hypocrisy that is bothering me.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> No. I am just upset that he won't show me any understanding and compassion and is giving me the silent treatment like I was the one who lied to him about having other partners.


Interesting word 'like". You think the silent treatment is because of what exactly? If you are not speaking to each other why would you equate what is going on in his mind to (you have no idea what he is thinking because you are not speaking to each other) to this painful event which occurred before a multiyear breakup prior to getting married?


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> During the years he was gone I briefly dated a drummer who had a song on the radio. Well, he found out about it after we got back together RIGHT before our wedding day. On the way home from the grocery store that song came on the radio. He went silent. I could literally feel him seething. We got home and he went into the bedroom, locked the door and did not speak for the rest of the night.
> 
> So he should understand how it feels. Its irrational, I know. But this is how it goes with anyone I ever dated. He treats it as a betrayal. I think he should be able to handle my response from his actual betrayal.


The plot thickens. Any others ? You 2 did not have the list of bf/gfs before getting married? Does he still bring them up explicitly?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Interesting word 'like". You think the silent treatment is because of what exactly? If you are not speaking to each other why would you equate what is going on in his mind to (you have no idea what he is thinking because you are not speaking to each other) to this painful event which occurred before a multiyear breakup prior to getting married?


Because it is like how he acts when he thinks of me dating anyone. He gets mad at me and treats me like the cheater. Which is what he is doing now. Which is why his first response was WHAT ABOUT WHAT YOU DID, which means what about the men you dated. The difference here is subtle. I never dated anyone while seeing him. Period. He would have never allowed that and felt it would be wrong.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> The plot thickens. Any others ? You 2 did not have the list of bf/gfs before getting married? Does he still bring them up explicitly?


He used to love to bring them up and has put me through the ringer for each one. He hasn't done that since I almost died.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Thats it! That is why he is so mad. Me talking about her is reminding him of that breakup. Which reminds him that I dated others while he was gone. Which infuriates him. So mystery solved.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

The thing that kills me is that I would have never dated another man after meeting him if he could have been faithful. I have never met anyone I love more before or since. I believe he is the love of my life.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Thats it! That is why he is so mad. Me talking about her is reminding him of that breakup. Which reminds him that I dated others while he was gone. Which infuriates him. So mystery solved.


He said this or are you just assuming?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Cause it sounds like he's mad that you decided to turn his wanting to go to Carl's jr into a big thing and kept fighting about it after and he's sick of fighting. 
Which also makes more rational sense.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Cause it sounds like he's mad that you decided to turn his wanting to go to Carl's jr into a big thing and kept fighting about it after and he's sick of fighting.
> Which also makes more rational sense.


Thats because you dont know how mad he gets when he hears even the mention of certain names on TV.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Cause it sounds like he's mad that you decided to turn his wanting to go to Carl's jr into a big thing and kept fighting about it after and he's sick of fighting.
> Which also makes more rational sense.


Whats with the blame with you? Aren't you assuming? How do you know that? And what do you mean sick of fighting. We aren't fighting, he is silent, there is no more fighting. There was one blow up and i tried to talk to him a few days later, thats it. He has been angry for days. And I think I have better insight into why he is acting like this after so many days.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Thats because you dont know how mad he gets when he hears even the mention of certain names on TV.


Neither of you sound like healthy partners. You need to make a stand that you either MC for the both of your issues or you divorce. Do not bring it up as a cheating thing or him needing to work on just him but you acknowledge you have issues too and both need help.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Whats with the blame with you? Aren't you assuming? How do you know that? And what do you mean sick of fighting. We aren't fighting, he is silent, there is no more fighting. There was one blow up and i tried to talk to him a few days later, thats it. He has been angry for days. And I think I have better insight into why he is acting like this after so many days.


The conversation you posted he clearly said twice he was sick of fighting and would not continue to fight about this. That's why I'm assuming he is sick of fighting. Cause he said so. 

Neither one of you has backed down, you still haven't apologized or accepted his apology and it's still in a fight. 

I think it's a reach to assume he is mad because your blow up made him think about people you used to date. But you'll need MC to help you get to a place where you can actually discuss it. Neither of you are capable at this point without the bad habits of anger, avoiding, ignoring, not able to see or say when wrong, expecting different behavior than you give and playing the victim. That's both of you. Both have very bad habits and both need to change. One is not worse than the other.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

twoofus said:


> Never having visited a Carl's Jr. I'm intrigued why it is such a controversial chain. Even more of a mystery is why they have placed the apostrophe in the name.
> Is the food good? Perhaps I will visit one next time I'm in the USA.


They are not a controversial chain, they had some highly sexualized commercials, which were basically deemed extremely sexist. Honestly, I can't argue with the claim.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> The thing that kills me is that I would have never dated another man after meeting him if he could have been faithful. I have never met anyone I love more before or since. I believe he is the love of my life.


Maybe you should take him off the pedestal you've had him on, though. He's just a human being. And what happened was a long time ago, and to him, he wasn't with you at the time. 

No one should be on a pedestal. He's just a human being.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I think its the hypocrisy that is bothering me.


I completely GET it.

When you were dating, it was an on again/off again thing.

During your last breakup, he was coming around spewing his bull**** about you being "soul mates" and telling you how you shouldn't be dating anyone else because he wouldn't be able to accept it and besides - soul mates don't DO that to each other. Oh, and he loves you and ONLY you and wants ONLY you and wants to marry you and PRETTY PLEASE, won't you take your soul mate back?

And all while he was giving you that load of horse-****, he was screwing around with someone else and making it a habit to go to Carl's Jr to have a burger after their bang-fests (or to continue them there).

You found an email talking about their Carl's Jr.s games and you got wise and dumped him and didn't talk to him for years. When you took up with him again years later, Mr. Hypocrite spewed more of his bull**** about how WRONG you were to have dated during those years you weren't with him. Conveniently, his own sleazy lying and cheating was never brought up. And to this DAY, he still has the colossal nerve to act like an ignorant jealous teenager whenever he's randomly reminded of whoever it was you dated when you were SINGLE so many years ago.

There's a BIG difference between his sleazy behavior of lying to you and letting you think he wanted to be with you while having this other girl on the side, and you dating when you were *done *with him. But he's so emotionally stunted that he seems to think he has a *right* to make your life a living hell when he has one of his drama queen melt-downs about men you had every right to date when you were broken up. I don't know how you keep yourself from throat-punching him. Honesly, I don't.

He's never acknowledges his **** behavior, he's never shown an _ounce_ of remorse for it, and he's never even said so much as he was sorry for it. You've got YEARS of resentment bubbling under the surface. *Years* of it. All it takes is a comment about eating at Carl's Jr. to bring it bubbling up and like a volcano, to the surface. And his incredible hypocrisy at thinking he has a right to belittle you and treat you like crap because you dated while completely broken up adds to that resentment.

I get it.

He's lucky *all* you do is explode. 

You are LONG overdue for a Come to Jesus Talk with this guy. Long overdue.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Thank you all who had serious comments and tough love for me here. I will try to get to each one but for now I just want you to know I did apologize last night and realize my part in this. Will write the update when I get back to the house.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Thank you all who had serious comments and tough love for me here. I will try to get to each one but for now I just want you to know I did apologize last night and realize my part in this. Will write the update when I get back to the house.


I think this an amazing step and I hope he appreciated it. As mean as I am I do understand that it's not easy to apologize when you're also wronged.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Last night youngest daughter showed up with drinks and we started a BBQ. She is working out of town and wanted to spend the night and catch up and be able to get to work early in the morning. It was so wonderful to see her. I told her what was going on, that I needed to apologize and I really wanted things to just go back to normal. She knows. She has been there through it all, the ups and downs, heard many of the fights and been there for all of the joys. She knows the WHOLE story both sides.

Her first response? "What?! After all the hell he put you through over Jeremy? And Raven? And Rev? He'll get over it. You know how he gets about the past. Its OK. You have to forgive yourself and try to work it out. You guys have been through so much. Besides, you shouldn't be crying. You got what you wanted in the end and she's the one left crying. You need to take care of yourself."

She went on to happily barbecue ribs and make salad. He came home. We were out on the deck watching the moon rise. He came out and sat on the porch to have a smoke, I asked if he wanted to join us (in his chair he always sits in that was empty and waiting for him)=no response. She turned her chair around to face him and said, "He is just enjoying the stability of those concrete stairs" and continued gabbing about her day. (I really loved all this by the way she is my shining light). We finished cooking and got food together to eat outside. I said "There is food in here if you are hungry" and we sat down to eat. He joined us and actually sat in his chair for dinner under the moon. She went on talking and laughing and he was silent through dinner. He may have said a few words to her, nothing to me. But she dominated the evening and it was just nice to have some upbeat positive energy around the house.

After dinner she went to bed in the extra room and I went out in the garden for a smoke, I heard something move in the shop and said "Hello?" He appeared. I started to apologize right away.

"I want to say I am sorry for unloading on you like that. I was wrong and I was just feeling very hurt like it was happening all over again. I know its all in the past and that is where it should stay. I am really really sorry I should be able to handle myself better and I just failed at that. I was gripped with emotion and should never have let it get to that point."

I was crying. I was sorry. What did he say? 

"Is she spending the night?"

"Yes."

"Where are you sleeping?" (I realize he is asking this so he can sleep somewhere else)

"Really? That is your response to everything I just said to you?" (I know I shouldn't have said this, it makes it seem like my apology was insincere)

Silence.

"I'll sleep in the front room" I say-

He leaves, goes to bed in the main bedroom. She is asleep in the spare room. I am alone in the main house and just go out to moongaze. At this point I don't know what else I can do.

Morning comes. She wakes up and we have some coffee together. I love her so much I don't want her to go. She says, "Stay hydrated today, you are heat sick, it wont rain for at least another week and this full moon energy is chaotic all around, I love you, we'll talk soon" She hugs me long and leaves for work. I need to get to the post office so I get dressed and head out shortly thereafter.

By the time I get back he is already gone for work. Now I am going to try to get organized and do the best I can to keep going.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Are you able to leave? It really doesn't sound like a situation you'd want to stay in and sounds like it hasn't been for a while if your daughter has heard fights and has known about the problems too.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Are you able to leave? It really doesn't sound like a situation you'd want to stay in and sounds like it hasn't been for a while if your daughter has heard fights and has known about the problems too.


Aren't you the one who told me to apologize? I did that. You said I should approach him differently and I did. And now I should leave? And I should not even wait to see what happens after work? Of course she has heard a few fights and also a lot of great things. He has been there since she was 5 years old. Both the girls know our issues, I think all children know about their parents issues. You can't hide things from them. They are wise.

She was there when I moved out years ago, it affected her life as well. She was there when we married. The girls were my only bridesmaids.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

dropdeaddiva said:


> Aren't you the one who told me to apologize? I did that. You said I should approach hm differently and I did. And now I should leave? And I should not even wait to see what happens after work? Of course she has heard a few fights and also a lot of great things. He has been there since she was 5 years old. Both the girls know our issues, I think all children know about their parents issues. You can't hide things from them. They are wise.
> 
> She was there when I moved out years ago, it affected her life as well. She was there when we married. The girls were my only bridesmaids.


Yes you should apologize and approach him differently but that doesn't mean it's suddenly fixed. There are issues beyond just this last fight and if he doesn't want to work on them, isn't even sharing a room or caring then there's no point.

You can make all the changes you need but unless both of you do, there isn't anything that can be done. 

Do you have children with him or just from previous relationship? What is keeping you there?


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes you should apologize and approach him differently but that doesn't mean it's suddenly fixed. There are issues beyond just this last fight and if he doesn't want to work on them, isn't even sharing a room or caring then there's no point.
> 
> You can make all the changes you need but unless both of you do, there isn't anything that can be done.
> 
> Do you have children with him or just from previous relationship? What is keeping you there?


I was following your advice, owning my part. I cannot control his reaction. I can only do my best. We have a year lease on a 100 year old house on half an acre that I saw in a dream after I got home from the hospital. When we found it, I knew we were meant to move here. I have built a garden in the old back yard behind the back yard (there are two) and my piano is is the music room that my family paid to have moved here for me. Why would I leave?

Our baby together died 10 years ago. He is stepfather to my 2 girls, both grown and out of the house now. One lives on the East coast and finished her Master's and just landed a great job, the other lives in town and I get to see often, thankfully, she is on hiatus from the state university here and working a lot. They are wonderful kids who love and support both of us.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

No you cannot control his response but if he's not willing to work on things then what? You tried, he still doesn't seem to care. Things don't sound like a healthy and happy marriage. 

Can you afford the home on your own? Or with a roommate? Then have him leave. 

A dream home is not worth it when the people inside aren't happy. You will be happier in a tiny apartment than in an unhappy marriage.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No you cannot control his response but if he's not willing to work on things then what? You tried, he still doesn't seem to care. Things don't sound like a healthy and happy marriage.
> 
> Can you afford the home on your own? Or with a roommate? Then have him leave.
> 
> A dream home is not worth it when the people inside aren't happy. You will be happier in a tiny apartment than in an unhappy marriage.


Its not a dream house, its a house I saw in a dream. Very different things. On the mundane side, we are both in it for the term of the lease. I came here to navigate this mega trigger and keep my marriage. I love my family, I love my husband. If he is that unhappy, he can file papers. I am going to try to be a good human and apologize like you said. The ball is in his court now.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

OMG he actually left a message that I just saw-

I know how you feel. Its OK. I'll see you tonight.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

3D, fixing problems takes time. his pattern of withdrawal is not going to be fixed overnight. I think you did the right think by engaging and owning your part. Keep doing what you are doing, don't make things worse by fighting more. The smaller problem is his resentment over your exes which you stated he has not brought in over 3 years, at least since you got sick. That is trivial to overcome. The real problem is not being able to quickly make up after disagreements with him sulking away. That will take time for him to acknowledge and own. I think from what you have written here your mutual love and the strength of your marriage can overcome that.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I agree that what he did was extremely hurtful. IMO, you have an issue I had, it is called "right fighting."

http://storage.cloversites.com/outpostreformedministries/documents/Right Fighting.pdf

The thing is, I completely agree with how angry you are and why you feel this way. One of the byproducts is your spouse ignoring you just to avoid a fight. Not trying to be insulting, but you are doing it to posters all over this thread right now. As someone who did it, I was cringing at every exchange. Now, I don't completely agree with everything in the pdf, but I like many of the examples especially, with the father and son.



> She knows. She has been there through it all, the ups and downs, heard many of the fights and been there for all of the joys. She knows the WHOLE story both sides.


I doubt, unless you both told her, she knows the entire in and outs. If she does, I'm worried about how you both communicate. If you fought so long and hard about things like this, where a child grew up knowing the complexity of the issues, it can't be a healthy relationship on either of your sides.

He's not here so, I can't say if he is a pouter, stonewaller or just tired of fighting. Heck, for all I know he is a right fighter as well. I am not confirming this is you either. I am just observing how you came across to me with some of your stories and reactions to posters giving you another side to look at for help.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I agree that what he did was extremely hurtful. IMO, you have an issue I had, it is called "right fighting."
> 
> http://storage.cloversites.com/outpostreformedministries/documents/Right Fighting.pdf
> 
> ...


Thank you. I realize I was angry because I felt no one could see anything I was feeling as valid. I realize I was being emotional and combative and apologized to my husband and also to the posters here who gave me honest and tough advice that I needed to look at.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I completely GET it.
> 
> When you were dating, it was an on again/off again thing.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how I felt when I blew up. I think I actually probably said some of these things.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> 3D, fixing problems takes time. his pattern of withdrawal is not going to be fixed overnight. I think you did the right think by engaging and owning your part. Keep doing what you are doing, don't make things worse by fighting more. The smaller problem is his resentment over your exes which you stated he has not brought in over 3 years, at least since you got sick. That is trivial to overcome. The real problem is not being able to quickly make up after disagreements with him sulking away. That will take time for him to acknowledge and own. I think from what you have written here your mutual love and the strength of your marriage can overcome that.


Yes, that is true he hasn't brought it up since then we got back together a few years ago, did counseling sessions and he quit drinking. About a year later I got very sick and was in the hospital for a long time. When I got home we were just happy I made it out alive and we were closer than ever in our marriage before.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I agree that what he did was extremely hurtful. IMO, you have an issue I had, it is called "right fighting."
> 
> http://storage.cloversites.com/outpostreformedministries/documents/Right Fighting.pdf
> 
> ...


I mean she knows when we broke up and got back together and why. She knows I am in love with him and he is crazy to be worried about any other guys. There have been times in the last 20 years that some bad fights have happened. I wish I could take them all away but I can't. We have worked hard to overcome our problems. I am sure I have right fighting issues and some codependency as well but I also work on those things and focus on the goals of getting healthy again physically and emotionally.


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## dropdeaddiva (Jul 10, 2017)

I will try to make an un-cringeworthy post and share some thoughts on infidelity and how it has affected my marriage relationship and family. First of all I think infidelity is defined by the partners themselves although I realize there is a standard definition. The problem I have faced is that my HUSBAND has defined what he feels a betrayal would be for him. And it has historically been different criteria that he applies to each of us. He realized it was an irrational feeling but he still felt that way even though he knew it was unfair. 

For example, he would have felt betrayed if I had dated anyone right after our big breakup. EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SEEING SOMEONE, that was a long time ago but double standard applied. Cheating if I would have done it, but understandable if he was doing it. Try not to jump on me just yet. Example 2 = online cam sex sites, not cheating in his mind my question = "So its OK if I go to these sites while you are at work? Answer = "No." And this was after our vows. I left.

We reconciled a few years ago and have really worked hard to stay together by addressing what has actually occurred during our legal marriage while ignoring our years long relationship before marriage. I honestly believe he had a form of madonna.wh*re that he has had to overcome where certain things a girl who is marriage material just doesn't do. I feel he is no longer swayed by those emotions and has been fair to me and a great husband after reconciliation.

I still have emotional flooding. This blow up was me. You guys tried to tell me that and I didn't want to hear. Overall, we have both had to struggle to overcome our own personal demons that we used to project onto each other. I would like to think that we made it and it was worth the work.

How can you ever know when its over, when all the repressed anger is done? I feel love from him when he just held me last night and said, "Its OK" over and over, comforting me in his arms. We have traveled a long road and we still have issues to work on. I indulged my anger at him even though he has really worked to conquer his and our problems. We played out a long ago script, so the infidelity of the past can infect your marriage, even when you begin anew and take vows. I think we effectively rugswept by just not seeing each other for so long. 

Can you guys try to go a little easy on me today? I'm trying. That's why I am here.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm so happy to hear he held you last night. Being in his arms must have been a huge relief. 

Have you had time to really heal after your Mother passed? 

Maybe a bit of pampering after such a rough ride recently? You go get a hair cut and a new outfit and you and your husband go out to a nice place for dinner or dancing? Or a couples spa day? Small weekend camping trip? 

Just a change of pace for the day and to feel like husband and wife again after being disconnected the last couple weeks.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

dropdeaddiva said:


> I will try to make an un-cringeworthy post and share some thoughts on infidelity and how it has affected my marriage relationship and family. First of all I think infidelity is defined by the partners themselves although I realize there is a standard definition. The problem I have faced is that my HUSBAND has defined what he feels a betrayal would be for him. And it has historically been different criteria that he applies to each of us. He realized it was an irrational feeling but he still felt that way even though he knew it was unfair.
> 
> For example, he would have felt betrayed if I had dated anyone right after our big breakup. EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SEEING SOMEONE, that was a long time ago but double standard applied. Cheating if I would have done it, but understandable if he was doing it. Try not to jump on me just yet. Example 2 = online cam sex sites, not cheating in his mind my question = "So its OK if I go to these sites while you are at work? Answer = "No." And this was after our vows. I left.
> 
> ...


I think the key thing is all these things that happened in the past. Only time filled with positive moments make these pains from years ago slowly hurt less and less. I quoted the above because I think you should hold each other every night and always remember what you just wrote here. Holding each other will remind him to stop shutting down over disagreements. It was also remind you that he has owned up to his failures and worked on them - your words. So bottom line, hold each other, put each others needs first equally and together. Doing that with honest communication is not sweeping. Ohh, and have lots of sex. Then less time to dwell on things from the past.


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