# Wife is behaving weird. Need some input



## Deguello

We are both in our early 60's,our sex life until 2010 was actually pretty good,we averaged 1,2 per week.In 2010 it dropped to 1x per month MAYBE,at the same time she reconnected with female classmate.
They began "having lunch" once or twice a month,I did not have an issue with this,right away. Lunch would last two to three hours.

When this woman would call,my wife would race outside or back to the bedroom until she was finished with the conversation,I thought this was "odd".
When. I asked when we were going to have dinner,socialize,I was told in a hostile manner,"That was not going to happen,ever!" and she has been very defensive about it since then.I still have not met either one of these people.and it has been 5 years
Am I not seeing something.any suggestions? Advice


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## SadSamIAm

I think I would insist on meeting this person. No reason for her to be so secretive that would be good.

If she is adamant that you not meet her, then you have a decision to make. I think I would follow her or have her followed and see what she is up to.


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## ILoveSparkles

Are you sure that this person is a female?


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## happy as a clam

Yes said:


> Are you sure that this person is a female?


Exactly. Or long lost lesbian lover wannabe?


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## perol

I know a guy whose wife left him for a woman, same exact scenario.

She denied being gay despite repeated questioning and confrontation, until the day she announced she was leaving him to be with this other woman.

There's very little doubt that in this situation, we're looking at a lesbian couple.

A VAR in the bedroom would remove any remaining doubt.


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## Deguello

As far as I can tell,it is a woman


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## perol

Deguello said:


> As far as I can tell,it is a woman


Usually it's not that hard to distinguish, although I've done a few double takes in my time.


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## Woodchuck

Another possibility is that they are having "My husband is such a PRI-CK" conversations....That knocked a hole in my sex life a few years back....Are the other girls divorced, or not happily married?....Wife's GF's husband was cheating.....I paid for it....Get a good VAR....


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## ReidWright

Deguello said:


> .I still have not met either one of these people.and it has been 5 years


there are two people? or just the one 'lady'?

yeah, secret friends are usually secret for a reason

might not be anything more than your wife badmouths you to this friend, and doesn't want you two to meet and compare notes

call this secret friend up and ask her to a dinner party...tell her it's a surprise for your wife.


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## perol

Maybe they're imaginary friends.

It happens.


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## Deguello

I have not met this woman as far as I know,my wife took a pic of me on her phone,she has NEVER done that before or since,so she may know what I look like. She also dresses/Undresses in the bathroom,has done so since 2010,she say. That is how she was raised.
B.S.!
Deguello


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## Deguello

It is hard to tell,the other couple have been married 40+years,What is a VAR.?
Deguello


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## Catherine602

Do you have friends that you see independent of your wife? Do you have interests that you share with a group of friends that have nothing to do with your wife? If not, you should cultivate interest and activities that are independent of your wife. Find something that you are passionate about. Also, meet up with your guy friends regularly for sports or cards or just hang out for drinks.


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## Bibi1031

Deguello said:


> It is hard to tell,the other couple have been married 40+years,What is a VAR.?
> Deguello


It's a Voice Activated Recorder

You can get them at Best Buy. I believe they are about $70. Well worth the money to find out what your wife and her friend are really talking about.

Bibi


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## GusPolinski

Oh boy.


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## MachoMcCoy

5 years and you've never had her followed? Hire a PI. See what's up.


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## ReidWright

do you know where they "lunch" once or twice a month?

show up one day! or at least check to see if her car is there like she says

so it's a couple now? does your wife ever talk directly to the husband? or maybe that's what's really going on....she's 'lunching' with the husband and neither of the spouses are told the truth


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## Deguello

Actually I do have friends that are outside of my marriage,and I do "hang out",My wife knows all of my friends,I think,which is why I'm so bothered by her current activities. I have wondered just what was going on,I am not prepared to do the divorce route,it just goes against the way I was raised. She told me the other day,I'll have sex with you because it is an "OBLIGATION" because we're married,but you have to initiate. I do not think that normal. 
Deguello


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## Deguello

As far as I can tell,it is just the wife,she says she has never met the husband.I'm not even sure he knows what is going on.
I do know where they have lunch,the last time I was there I did not actually see her get out of the car,
Deguello


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## Deguello

I have actually followed her,and I do know where this woman lives. She lives about 10 minutes from where they supposedly have "lunch".I have started to plan an "OP" for this weekend,for the next time they have lunch,I really cannot afford a P.I. 
She is going to be " Out of town" with her sister.Do
women normally have 2 to 3 hour lunches? 
Deguello


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## 5Creed

How long have you and your wife been married?


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## Deguello

perol said:


> Usually it's not that hard to distinguish, although I've done a few double takes in my time.


Having never met this person or seen a picture,I'm assuming that it is a woman,,I do know how to spell assume,but at this his point,it is all I've got.
D


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## Givernor

If you do not want to go with the creepy snooping route I woudn't blame you. Sounds like you're also scared of a direct conflict as in demanding to know what's up (which is what I would do)..

So try this. Give her the same medicine. You now have a mysterious guy friend that she is not allowed to meet. You talk in private and spend hours "hanging out together" where she is not welcome. Be sure to come home smelling like perfume and accidentally leave some clues around that appear to be consistent with a females attention towards you.

If this is something you could pull off, you would know everything you need to know by her reaction..This would push most loving wives to the brink. If she acts relieved or indifferent, you know that she already has one foot out the door.

But be aware, in the off chance her relationship is on the up and up, you could have some "splain'n" to do, Ricky.


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## Thor

Here's what i'd do. I'd find out if she really is at the restaurant, and if she stays for the entire time. Does she leave with someone else and then come back for her car?

Put a VAR in her car. Get a good SONY brand unit, they run about $65 at WalMart. Put top quality batteries in it. Use strong wide velcro to attach it securely in her car. Under her seat is fine, or under the dash. Play with the unit for a bit before you install it so that you know absolutely positively how to operate it. Make sure it is set to silent mode so it doesn't somehow make noises. You can snip the plug off of old cheap earbuds and plug it into the earphone jack. This should ensure the speaker is bypassed.

Place the VAR so that she can't see it easily, and make sure it is secure so it won't fall out. The VAR will capture phone conversations she has. People think it is totally private in their car, and will talk unguardedly. Many cheaters have been caught this way. We had one member here who used a VAR to discover his wife was not cheating but had some serious issues in the marriage. The guy used the info to change some things he was doing and he rescued his marriage. Whatever data you get will be good to have. Nothing from the VAR is ever revealed to anyone, not even your wife. The VAR is for your info only.

I would also place a GPS unit in her car. This is a more expensive route to go, and could wait until you've gathered the VAR information for a few weeks. Alternative options are to hide your cell phone in the car (set to silent mode plus earbuds plugged in) and turn on "find my phone" or whatever similar function your phone and carrier offer. Be sure to activate GPS on your phone. Your phone battery should be good for the few hours she is at lunch. Stash it where she won't find it. Watch where the car is in real time from your computer at home.

Another alternative is to follow her a few minutes behind to the restaurant. Park where you're not obvious. This won't work if you have a unique car. Be your own PI to see if she is at the restaurant, and when she leaves. When she does leave, drive home a different way than her so she doesn't see you.

Review all the phone and credit card statements. You're looking for anything odd. Massive numbers of texts, calls at odd hours, all to the same number. Look at the credit card statements to see if she's really buying lunch on those days (the date the charge goes through could be 1 to 3 days later). Are there any odd things which could be gifts, or hotels?

Her changing in the bathroom seems quite odd to me, given that she didn't ever do that before. Do you still have sex with her? Has her personal grooming changed? If so does it coincide with her changing in the bathroom and this new friend?


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## Deguello

We still have sex,once maybe twice a month,but to her it is an "OBLIGATION" because we're married(her words).As far as her dressing/undressing in the bathroom,I feel like she is "hiding"her body from me for some reason,I was wondering if she feels like she's cheating when we do have sex or I see her naked. She did start doing something different with her hair,enhancing the gray,special shampoo.This all started in 2010, just after she reconnected with this woman,I do not believe for a heartbeat that all of this is a coincidence. She brought home "Leftovers" a while back from lunch.but it looked like"TAKE OUT" to me.and it was still warm.
Deguello


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## Deguello

We have been together for 45 years,married for 42.
Deguello


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## Deguello

Thor said:


> Here's what i'd do. I'd find out if she really is at the restaurant, and if she stays for the entire time. Does she leave with someone else and then come back for her car?
> 
> Put a VAR in her car. Get a good SONY brand unit, they run about $65 at WalMart. Put top quality batteries in it. Use strong wide velcro to attach it securely in her car. Under her seat is fine, or under the dash. Play with the unit for a bit before you install it so that you know absolutely positively how to operate it. Make sure it is set to silent mode so it doesn't somehow make noises. You can snip the plug off of old cheap earbuds and plug it into the earphone jack. This should ensure the speaker is bypassed.
> 
> Place the VAR so that she can't see it easily, and make sure it is secure so it won't fall out. The VAR will capture phone conversations she has. People think it is totally private in their car, and will talk unguardedly. Many cheaters have been caught this way. We had one member here who used a VAR to discover his wife was not cheating but had some serious issues in the marriage. The guy used the info to change some things he was doing and he rescued his marriage. Whatever data you get will be good to have. Nothing from the VAR is ever revealed to anyone, not even your wife. The VAR is for your info only.
> 
> I would also place a GPS unit in her car. This is a more expensive route to go, and could wait until you've gathered the VAR information for a few weeks. Alternative options are to hide your cell phone in the car (set to silent mode plus earbuds plugged in) and turn on "find my phone" or whatever similar function your phone and carrier offer. Be sure to activate GPS on your phone. Your phone battery should be good for the few hours she is at lunch. Stash it where she won't find it. Watch where the car is in real time from your computer at home.
> 
> Another alternative is to follow her a few minutes behind to the restaurant. Park where you're not obvious. This won't work if you have a unique car. Be your own PI to see if she is at the restaurant, and when she leaves. When she does leave, drive home a different way than her so she doesn't see you.
> 
> Review all the phone and credit card statements. You're looking for anything odd. Massive numbers of texts, calls at odd hours, all to the same number. Look at the credit card statements to see if she's really buying lunch on those days (the date the charge goes through could be 1 to 3 days later). Are there any odd things which could be gifts, or hotels?
> 
> Her changing in the bathroom seems quite odd to me, given that she didn't ever do that before. Do you still have sex with her? Has her personal grooming changed? If so does it coincide with her changing in the bathroom and this new friend?


Thor,
That is all good stuff,the last time I followed her,I did not see her get out of the car,she must have gotten out on the passenger side,I think that is alittle odd. Now that I think back,she never set the alarm on her car.I think the Next time I will be inside,the restaurant, in disguise,what I need to do is borrow a car to follow her in,but I don't want to involve my friends in this CF,it has got to compartmentalized 
Deguello


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## convert

Deguello said:


> Thor,
> That is all good stuff,the last time I followed her,I did not see her get out of the car,she must have gotten out on the passenger side,I think that is alittle odd. Now that I think back,she never set the alarm on her car.I think the Next time I will be inside,the restaurant, in disguise,*what I need to do is borrow a car to follow her in,but I don't want to involve my friends in this CF,*it has got to compartmentalized
> Deguello


maybe a rent-a-car --paid by cash


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## Woodchuck

The next time she go's to one of these little lunches, Tell her you are going out, and leave before she doe's...You could take a cab to their meeting place, and have time to find a secluded table, and be ready...


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## Deguello

Woodchuck said:


> The next time she go's to one of these little lunches, Tell her you are going out, and leave before she doe's...You could take a cab to their meeting place, and have time to find a secluded table, and be ready...


The best thing for me,is to treat this like a"mission",the first RECON is this weekend
Restaurant,this woman's house,My wife will be out of town with her sister,I need to find out how much her family actually knows,I can't believe everyone is "in the dark" on this.
Deguello


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## Thor

Be cautious and discreet. People will blab to your wife about your questions and actions.


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## MarriedDude

If you know this woman's name, address, etc...have you done some standard internet searches?

Cheap and easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Abc123wife

Is your wife's birthday or any special occasion coming up in the next 3 to 4 months? You could plan a surprise birthday party for her. And of course her best dear friend would need to be invited! Drive to this woman's house, ring the door bell. Let this woman or her husband (if he answers the door) that you are planning a very special surprise party this year, that you did not trust sending a text or email as your wife might catch on. Then say you wanted her best friend to be there of course. You could then ask for a list and contact info for others they both knew from school to invite them too. Just see how this woman reacts. Maybe this isn't even someone she knew from school in which case this woman won't be able to give names of others they knew. If she is much younger or much older that will tell you also that is not how they know each other.

Before you do that though, have a VAR in the bedroom your wife skirts off to to talk to her friend and another one in the car. If this is not a legit old classmate, her friend will be calling to give your a wife a heads up on your visit.

It is very strange that your wife said you would never get to meet this friend. Why? I cannot think of a legit reason for that. My husband has met anyone that I talk to on a regular basis just because they stop by or he answers the phone and chats a second or two as anyone would with normal human social skills before handing me the phone. 

I would be so tempted to stake their house out just to see who lives there. You gone 5 years wondering these things? You are more patient or less curious than I could ever be!


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## Abc123wife

Deguello said:


> The best thing for me,is to treat this like a"mission",the first RECON is this weekend
> Restaurant,this woman's house,My wife will be out of town with her sister,I need to find out how much her family actually knows,I can't believe everyone is "in the dark" on this.
> Deguello


Are you absolutely sure she is going away with her sister? Her sister wouldn't cover for her, would she? Is it an event that you will she pictures from afterward?


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## Stang197

I would put a spy app on her phone. That's a goldmine. GPS on her person instead of the car. It gives you the texts. You can record the phone calls. It was very affordable compared to a PI. You can block apps remotely. You can block numbers remotely.


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## Be smart

Sorry you are here my friend,especcially after 42 years of marriage.

You need to keep your eyes open. Your wife goes out with "someone" for FIVE years and you dont even know who she/he is!!!

After being married for so long,why is she hiding her body from you and she said to you that sex is obligation to her ?

This smells really bad to me. She could meet with some guy or guys for five years.

You need to check her emails and phone records. Follow her when she goes out. It is your life and your wife so you have a right to know what is she doing.

If she keeps snaping at you then told her you would not tolerate this anylonger.You are her husband and her best friend so why is she having secrets behind your back !


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## F-102

My W is Korean, and they have an old saying there: "When the wives get together, the dishes will break at home". Perhaps she and her friend are in a "My H is a bigger jackass than yours is" competition, or her friend is re-introducing her to the single party girl lifestyle. Either way, this friend is toxic.

Another possibility: perhaps this friend knows something about your W from her past, before she met you...something that she is deeply ashamed of. Maybe she doesn't want you to meet this friend, for fear that she will let the cat out of the bag?


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## tech-novelist

This is really suspicious. You need to get to the bottom of this, and fast.
I agree with the VAR suggestion. It's a lot cheaper than any other way to find out what is really going on.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sorry you're here deguello. But in addition to getting to the bottom of this, you need to get your head screwed on right about something.

You say divorce is off the table - you weren't raised that way. This attitude has to be checked and put into the proper context.

Everyone wants your marriage to be protected. But that assumes you both are honoring your marriage vows - and if she isn't, she can be put back on a path to honor them without having caused irreconcilable damage to the marriage.

Unfortunately, it's been 5 years and if something bad is up, you have every right to protect and honor yourself.

Marriage is a partnership and not a life sentence. You were not raised to suffer in a relationship with someone who is dishonest, untrustworthy, disrespectful, deceitful, and who lacks integrity. I honestly hope your spouse is not these things, but if her actions prove otherwise,there is no honor in suffering for a false ideal.

So please don't declare failure and concede defeat on principal before you have the facts. I have over 30 years with my W too and understand your values, but i have read too many painful stories to believe that ideals should overrule reality.

So let's keep the eyes and ears open, keep cautious skepticism at the forefront, and a realistic view of your own value above the ideals of marriage as a concept. I wish you well.


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## MachoMcCoy

Deguello said:


> I asked when we were going to have dinner,socialize,I was told in a hostile manner,"That was not going to happen,ever!"





Deguello said:


> She told me the other day,I'll have sex with you because it is an "OBLIGATION" because we're married,but you have to initiate. I do not think that normal.
> Deguello



Unfortunately, wives falling out of love with their husbands is VERY normal. And from what I can tell from reading this and other forums, sex as an obligation is very much the norm.

I do not know what your wife is up to. Neither do ANY of these other posters. You need to find out. No doubt. Investigate the VAR route. Just prepare for the fact that she doesn't love you any more. That's one thing I KNOW.


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## weightlifter

A Sony VAR is cheaper and usually faster. See top link in my signature for instructions. Dont follow her in YOUR car. Consider using a trusted friend.


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## Deguello

I now know WHO she is,Where she lives. I have an address,Husband, adult children.Maiden name I'm doing some recon later...I also have a plan for the next lunch.
Deguello


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## Catherine602

If your plan to confront your wife at lunch, be prepared for an extremely negative response. If you plan is to make sure she is actually lunching with this woman, will that be enough to make the friendship palatable? No matter what you find, nothing changes the need to talk to your wife and set limits for what you will tolerate. What are the limits and what happens if she violates them?

My advice is to carefully consider what you want. If it's a close friendship as she says, it might be best to let it go. I doubt that you will be able to change her attachment to this woman. If she feels there is no risk that she will lose anything she values more then she has no incentive to disengage.


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## Deguello

I did a Recon this evening,got some good intel,drove by the other woman's house,nothing obvious,got a good story going about getting a call from an old high school buddy,sounds like she bought it.
She did agree to leave the GPS on on her smart phone when she went to eastern oregon with her sister. The investigation continues

Deguello


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## Deguello

Catherine602 said:


> If your plan to confront your wife at lunch, be prepared for an extremely negative response. If you plan is to make sure she is actually lunching with this woman, will that be enough to make the friendship palatable? No matter what you find, nothing changes the need to talk to your wife and set limits for what you will tolerate. What are the limits and what happens if she violates them?
> 
> My advice is to carefully consider what you want. If it's a close friendship as she says, it might be best to let it go. I doubt that you will be able to change her attachment to this woman. If she feels there is no risk that she will lose anything she values more then she has no incentive to disengage.


I really do not plan a "confrontation,I believe that would be counter-productive at best,I not sure what I want at this point,except to know ever we stand.does that make sense?
Deguello


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## aine

It all sounds very strange. Is it possible that the person is from her past before you got married, a child or something like that?


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## Deguello

aine said:


> It all sounds very strange. Is it possible that the person is from her past before you got married, a child or something like that?


All I know is that she was a grade school friend,and who found her on FB.but it does not explained the weird things that are going on.
Deguello


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## Thor

It is possible the issue is someone else, not the woman friend. Your wife could be meeting someone else altogether when she says she is meeting the woman friend. Or she leaves the woman after a 1 hr lunch to go be with someone else.

Cheaters will list their affair partner under another name in their contacts list. When your wife receives a call from Jane From Gradeschool, it might really be Joe From College.

The VAR will be your best source of direct intel. Don't fail to use it.


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## Deguello

Thor said:


> It is possible the issue is someone else, not the woman friend. Your wife could be meeting someone else altogether when she says she is meeting the woman friend. Or she leaves the woman after a 1 hr lunch to go be with someone else.
> 
> Cheaters will list their affair partner under another name in their contacts list. When your wife receives a call from Jane From Gradeschool, it might really be Joe From College.
> 
> The VAR will be your best source of direct intel. Don't fail to use it.


I was trying not to think in that direction,but it is completely possible,it might explain a lot of this weirdness,I appreciate your Candor.
Deguello


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## Deguello

Deguello said:


> I was trying not to think in that direction,but it is completely possible,it might explain a lot of this weirdness,I appreciate your Candor.
> Deguello


Thor,
Your last post made some sense,I appreciate you bringing it up,I may just look in that direction,It might change my POV.
Thanks
Deguello


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## Deguello

Catherine602 said:


> If your plan to confront your wife at lunch, be prepared for an extremely negative response. If you plan is to make sure she is actually lunching with this woman, will that be enough to make the friendship palatable? No matter what you find, nothing changes the need to talk to your wife and set limits for what you will tolerate. What are the limits and what happens if she violates them?
> 
> My advice is to carefully consider what you want. If it's a close friendship as she says, it might be best to let it go. I doubt that you will be able to change her attachment to this woman. If she feels there is no risk that she will lose anything she values more then she has no incentive to disengage.


If this relationship is as it seems,I don't have a problem with it,however if it is what it seem why the deception? There are too many anomalies that raise "Red Flags" for me,just since this started 5 years ago,I may be too trusting or just naive I don't. Know,but I'm not a big fan of "coincidence "and it's the deception,I am not perfect,I'm. In recovery from a porn addiction,and have been sober for a while now,almost two years,I have trust issues with women,she has trust issues with me because of porn. Something smell bad and it ain't. My feet.does that clear things up?
Deguello


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## turnera

Deguello said:


> I did a Recon this evening,got some good intel,drove by the other woman's house,nothing obvious,got a good story going about getting a call from an old high school buddy,sounds like she bought it.
> She did agree to leave the GPS


So you knocked on the lady's door and she answered?


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## turnera

Given the problems you describe having in the past, it is possible that, at her age - and because of hooking up with an old friend - she's reached a point where she just wants to live out the rest of her years the way SHE wants to. She's obviously getting her emotional needs met by this friend (assuming it's not really a man she's having an affair with), and no longer by you. Once that happens, women often simply stop loving you, except in a platonic sense. 

And many women DO believe that sex is just an obligation. I'm one of them. My H always makes it great for me, but I don't want it; I just want to get it over with, and then I can relax for a few days, knowing he won't make moves on me for at least 4 or 5 more days. And I can't wait until he's no longer interested in it. As sad as that sounds, a lot of women feel that way.

That said, if my H would fix all the problems I have with him, he would become MUCH more attractive to me, and I'd be far more interested in having sex with him. All the things he does that upset me keep me too turned off. So I'll urge you to take a REALLY hard look at yourself and see what it is about you that she's fed up with, given up on changing, or barely tolerates. We can help with that.

Finally, what you describe sounds A LOT like she's having an affair. Don't stop snooping and following until you know the truth.


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## jsmart

I agree that this sounds like an affair. Getting dress in bathroom so you won't see her after being together for 45 years? I would definitely do the VAR in the car and in the room that she sneaks off to.

After 45 years couples can very comfortable and let themselves go and not make a romantic effort. Are you taking care of your appearance? Not that you need to be some GQ model but no woman wants to give herself to a slob. Also important to make an effort to make the Misses feel desirable. You don't have to turn into some sappy romance novel caricature, but a date night at least once a month is important.

Being in your 60s doesn't mean you can't work on improving yourself and hopefully your marriage. You can have a 2 prong attack. Improve yourself, physically, emotionally, educationally, ETC. You also need to get to the root cause of your wife's behavior. Unfortunately you let it go on for 5 years, so you will get push back but there is no reason you can't turn this around , if there is not another man. If there is, all bets are off.


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## Deguello

Negative,she knows what I look like,I do not know what she looks like


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## Deguello

jsmart said:


> I agree that this sounds like an affair. Getting dress in bathroom so you won't see her after being together for 45 years? I would definitely do the VAR in the car and in the room that she sneaks off to.
> 
> After 45 years couples can very comfortable and let themselves go and not make a romantic effort. Are you taking care of your appearance? Not that you need to be some GQ model but no woman wants to give herself to a slob. Also important to make an effort to make the Misses feel desirable. You don't have to turn into some sappy romance novel caricature, but a date night at least once a month is important.
> 
> Being in your 60s doesn't mean you can't work on improving yourself and hopefully your marriage. You can have a 2 prong attack. Improve yourself, physically, emotionally, educationally, ETC. You also need to get to the root cause of your wife's behavior. Unfortunately you let it go on for 5 years, so you will get push back but there is no reason you can't turn this around , if there is not another man. If there is, all bets are off.


I feel like I TRUSTED her for five years,when I should have put my foot down,thats what hurts,I TRUSTED her,and and she may have betrayed that trust now I have figure out what I can do about,if anything. 
Deguello


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## farsidejunky

Feel that way if you must. But find the proof before you convince yourself you have a problem that may not actually exist.


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## jsmart

Deguello said:


> I feel like I TRUSTED her for five years,when I should have put my foot down,thats what hurts,I TRUSTED her,and and she may have betrayed that trust now I have figure out what I can do about,if anything.
> Deguello


If you read the threads on TAM and similar sites like surviving infidelity and love shack, you see a trend. Husbands that act decisively and STRONG get wives tripping over themselves to work on the marriage. indecisive Rug sweepers and men that take divorce off the table get trickle truth, multiple Ddays and many times left. You have to be willing to destroy the marriage in order to save it.

Do some research on the typical cheater script, to prepare yourself for the typical answers that ALL cheaters spout. Start working on improving yourself. Exercise, wardrobe, hygiene, hair, ETC. It'll give you the needed confidence that you need to basically go thru an emotional war. Look up the 180 and look to possibly implementing it some of it. It's mostly to help you detach which will be necessary to be able to not show weakness. After 45 years, you're rightly very attached but if she's been in an affair for 5 years, she has detached.

You improve yourself at the same time that you're pulling away, hopefully pursuing manly hobby and reconnecting with male friends. This can shake a spouse out of an affair fog as she wonders, "what's he up to." Also don't confront until you have proof. A VAR velcroed to bottom of passenger seat of her car can quickly get you some answers. Don't feel guilty of snooping. You're trying to save a 45 year relationship. If it turns out to be a wives complaining about their husband club, then the improvements can bring her around.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello my friend, you slipped in a huge item in one of your posts, didn't you?

Porn and alcohol abuse / addiction.

There is one thing we haven't explored. What if your wife is simply trying to keep something untarnished and safe from toxic aspects of the relationship that you have brought in?

Please consider this before you become too self righteous or indignant about her secrecy. 

Yes it could be an affair or something sinister but it might be something banal.

Be cautious and be sure before confronting


----------



## Deguello

TheTruthHurts said:


> Deguello my friend, you slipped in a huge item in one of your posts, didn't you?
> 
> Porn and alcohol abuse / addiction.
> 
> There is one thing we haven't explored. What if your wife is simply trying to keep something untarnished and safe from toxic aspects of the relationship that you have brought in?
> 
> Please consider this before you become too self righteous or indignant about her secrecy.
> 
> Yes it could be an affair or something sinister but it might be something banal.
> 
> Be cautious and be sure before confronting


My wife has stood by me and didn't leave when she could have,and should be commended for not leaving,
I love this woman.We are both in recovery,we BOTH have issues,alcohol is not one of them,she has control issues,what seems to be going on is outside of the marriage. I could be wrong,it could be nothing,but I Don't know.
Deguello


----------



## Catherine602

Deguello said:


> If this relationship is as it seems,I don't have a problem with it,however if it is what it seem why the deception? There are too many anomalies that raise "Red Flags" for me,just since this started 5 years ago,I may be too trusting or just naive I don't. Know,but I'm not a big fan of "coincidence "and it's the deception,I am not perfect,I'm. *In recovery from a porn addiction,and have been sober for a while now*,almost two years,I have trust issues with women,she has trust issues with me because of porn. Something smell bad and it ain't. My feet.does that clear things up?
> Deguello


This is a completely different story with the revelation of addictions. The part about the drinking problem and porn addiction is very significant. Her friendship with this woman started while you were in the throws of double demons. You were still drinking for the first 3 yrs of the friendship. She appears to have established an emotionally intimate relationship with someone to fill a void that should have been occupied by a husband? 

Not blaming you. It is not so difficult to see why she formed this friendship at a time that you were not present emotionally. What was really going on when the friendship started and flourished? Now that you are sober and have your addiction under control, you want to improve your relationship. If this is a fair assessment then you have to acknowledge what factors may have driven her obsession with this woman. 

This friendship may have sustained her through difficult times. You are asking her to give it up and trust that you will not withdraw into your addictions. I don't know how many times during the marriage you tried to beat your addictions but, she may not trust you.


----------



## Marduk

#1 chill.

#2 go dark. Do not let on that you're fussed by this.

#3 gather data -- as much as you can get your hands on.

#4 consider your options.


----------



## thread the needle

Please quit ****ing around and find out what is going on. 

Five years with your head in the sand? C'mon. 

Get pi$$ed please and get to the bottom of this. 

I sit here positive I could have this all figured out in 72 hours with very little effort. So frustrating you are so passive while she sneaks around, has secrets and acts weird as he11 without your asking her wtf

If my wife would have said I would never meet some friend, I would have looked into that immediately. FIVE YEARS AND NOTHING!!! WOW!!!

Take control of your life and future please. Jeepers. This passive attitude is beyond frustrating to support.

Get a friggen move on NOW. 

How much energy has been put into wondering. Reinvest it in finding out what the he11 is going on with her


----------



## Deguello

Needle,
I really appreciate your gentle kick in the ass,not needed, but thanks. I am going to do this on my terms,I am in tactical control as of this morning,I have some good intel,but that information is compartmentalized.It would be a tactical error to broadcast it on social media,
Deguello


----------



## warshaw

Deguello said:


> I am in tactical control as of this morning,I have some good intel,but that information is compartmentalized.It would be a tactical error to broadcast it on social media,
> Deguello


10-4 Delta One, the Eagle has landed and the baby is in the batter.

Or something like that


----------



## Deguello

​This is Deguello.
I'm going out on a limb here,at very least,my Wife is having an EA,
With her "friend"(Ruth),so I'm going to stop being a "nice guy"because it is not helping things,I am going to be more assertive about everything,Mr. Nice has left the building,we'll see how she responds,
Now, before everybody jumps on me for being an *******,she is still MY WIFE,I still love her very much,but this is not doing either one of us any good,I will have ears and if possible eyes on her as much as possible by the end of today. Your input is still valuable to me thanks.
Deguello.


----------



## TAMAT

Degulleo,

You do want to catch her with the goods however, if she takes it underground you will get denial and resentment for the rest of your life, but never a full confession. 

There are many here, myself included, who did not get what they needed when they should have and paid the price of having to live with uncertainty.

Good luck on your mission don't blow your camouflage!

I suspect you will find that this is a continuation of an earlier physical affair.

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

I'm not sure what catching her with the goods would look like,I don't want to let her know that's. I know,I'm getting an STDS test done,and have an appt.with a mental health professional 
Deguello


----------



## Deguello

Last night my wife asked me when I was going to start taking night shifts again?.(I'm a substitute Custodian).She encouraged to do so,"because you like being available for you dad" my reply was"I don't know",she asked me the same question again this morning.
Considering our current situation,would that raise red flags for anyone else,it did for me,anyone else feel that way?
Deguello


----------



## turnera

Dammit, Deguello, don't you see, you're supposed to give her your schedule, and that schedule had better be filled with time away from home, so she can start planning her OM's visits.


----------



## Marduk

What I would do is set up a honeypot scenario - tempt her by telling her that you're going away for the weekend or working a few nights this week.

Then, instead of working or going away, go magnum PI on her.


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## Deguello

So I gather that I am not the only one who smells a rat here.Just wanted a second opiinon that why being a substitute is so much fun,I don't know when I am working,and neither does she
Deguello


----------



## Deguello

I'll consider that plan in the works,good Idea...
D


----------



## bandit.45

Badass name by the way.... Deguello... the song the Mexicans played to the boys at the Alamo....


Your best bet, if you are really concerned about what is happening, is to hire a PI. Good PIs have all the equipment and means to find out what is going on with her. It would be money well spent. It will also save you time.


----------



## perol

Deguello said:


> So I gather that I am not the only one who smells a rat here.Just wanted a second opiinon that why being a substitute is so much fun,I don't know when I am working,and neither does she
> Deguello


So tell her you're working 3 nights next week and get a camera ready and start planning your surveillance. 

Don't be surprised at what you're going to find.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Ok I have to admit you kind of creep me out a little bit deguello. Sorry to be so blunt. You're not going to do anything crazy if you get suspicious, are you?

There is a possibility she actually has an interest in you spending time with your dad (if I read that right).

So I agree look into this definitely - but keep an open mind if a pi says she's not cheating.

I think the fact that you are both in recovery makes me wonder if you both behave in ways that the rest of us in TAM would find suspicious.

Just some food for thought.


----------



## Deguello

>Sorry to creep you out,by crazy do you mean hurt someone?
Won't happen,I still love my wife, There are things that my upbringing
Won't let me do and it is not worth going to prison for It does not mean that there won't be consequences to her action,My training prohibits unprovoked hostile engagement.
once I'm engaged all bets are off,I am a combat Vet.
I am seeing a MH professional next week,and have already given blood and urine for STD testing.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yeah you got it deguello I sensed something like that and was concerned if you got jumpy or triggered there might be some PTSD lurking out there. We train out military to kill... so that happens sometimes when there's a malfunction. Just keep s lid on things and get help if you don't seem to be coping correctly.

My upbringing taught me to read peoe certain ways - lets just say that


----------



## Deguello

I'm. A little crazy,I'm not homicidal,I would have to be provoked,I just want to know why,there will be consequences for sure.


----------



## Deguello

The wife tried to explain the statement she made about having sex because its her obligation,
I will have sex with you when you need it,because you need sex more than I need sex,so when you feel the need,let me know,there was no mention of her wanting sex at all, sounds to me like she is a LD spouse.
I have asked her to see a Dr.about that but she forgets to ask if there is anything that can be done. Does this make sense to anyone?
It does not explain Her odd behavior at least not to me. Ideas/suggestions 
Deguello


----------



## Marduk

How can you possibly still not know what's going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

She's just like millions of women - sex isn't that important to her, never will be, likely. In my experience over the years, what I see is that, once the PEA chemicals (lust) is gone from the marriage, unless a woman is biologically HD, she won't care about sex any more UNLESS the marriage is VERY healthy, VERY equal, VERY safe, and VERY fulfilling. With all those things, she'll look at you with joy and excitement and WANT to consummate as a way of bonding even further.

Poopoo my theory all you want (and I know many of you are just itching to do so), but it bares out. It's just what happens. That's why the #1 issue men come to forums for or read books for is GETTING MORE AND BETTER SEX. And the #1 issue women do the same is for being in a marriage in which the man fails to learn, acknowledge, let alone address, what SHE needs in the marriage to have those feelings.

My opinion is that it's because men are raised by women and, typically, grew up taking the 'woman's role' for granted - mothering, cleaning, cooking, laundry, etc. - these were always all done FOR him so he not only paid no attention to who was doing it, but he gave no credit for who was doing it; he just expects it to all go smoothly. 

But what happens, more often than not, is that the man is CONTENT, because at first all his needs are being met - admiration, sex, domestic support, admiration. Then kids come along and the woman is not only expected to keep all those going, but she also has to now divide her time between those, the housework, and raising kids. While he continues to blissfully enjoy the benefits. She starts getting frustrated; even if he 'tries' to help with things, in reality he's most likely still 'letting' her be responsible for everything. Her resentment grows, her desire for him reduces as he's the source of most of her resentment, he may SAY he'll step up but rarely does, cycle cycle cycle...until she frankly couldn't care LESS about having sex with the person responsible for the resentment and then HE gets upset and HAS NO CLUE why she's upset because he never really took her seriously when she complained.

You'll see this play out in almost every.single.book about Walkaway Wives. Who finally decide - usually after 10 to 20 years - what do I need him for? I'm already doing everything.

Men can pretend this isn't happening. To their own detriment. But it's real, it happens all around us, and those who pretend it's not will find themselves sexless and/or divorced.

In your case, all those needs you weren't meeting for your wife? Guess what? She found someone ELSE to meet them. Her friend. Sex is no longer an issue for her, so all she really needs is a good friend. And you lost that role years ago.


----------



## TAMAT

Deguello,

My W talked about asking the doctor about her lack of labido, but did not when she went and was vague about what if anything was said.

I think the reason she didn't ask is that my W already knows the answer, and that answer is that she still has a sex drive and has feelings for others,but none for me.

I suspect your W, and mine, may have wanted to avoid bringing up the question with the doctor because the doctor would have had to ask probing questions. The answers to these probing questions would have either been lies or embarrassing. 

Tamat


----------



## Lostinthought61

D,

i still smell a rat, i still like the idea of setting up an opportunity to see exactly where she would spend her time when your not at home at night...good luck


----------



## john117

Turnera, your theory fails to explain the classic nice guy cases. Which most decent men end up being. 

It also fails to suggest any pathology with the woman's communication faculties - apparently she's so busy doing aaaaall those thiiiiiings for her man and kiiiiids that she forgot how to talk and express her needs.

And one day she walks away, content that she did aaaaaall she could to save the marriage. 

Allow us to be extra skeptical.


----------



## bandit.45

turnera said:


> She's just like millions of women - sex isn't that important to her, never will be, likely. In my experience over the years, what I see is that, once the PEA chemicals (lust) is gone from the marriage, unless a woman is biologically HD, she won't care about sex any more UNLESS the marriage is VERY healthy, VERY equal, VERY safe, and VERY fulfilling. With all those things, she'll look at you with joy and excitement and WANT to consummate as a way of bonding even further.
> 
> Poopoo my theory all you want (and I know many of you are just itching to do so), but it bares out. It's just what happens. That's why the #1 issue men come to forums for or read books for is GETTING MORE AND BETTER SEX. And the #1 issue women do the same is for being in a marriage in which the man fails to learn, acknowledge, let alone address, what SHE needs in the marriage to have those feelings.
> 
> My opinion is that it's because men are raised by women and, typically, grew up taking the 'woman's role' for granted - mothering, cleaning, cooking, laundry, etc. - these were always all done FOR him so he not only paid no attention to who was doing it, but he gave no credit for who was doing it; he just expects it to all go smoothly.
> 
> But what happens, more often than not, is that the man is CONTENT, because at first all his needs are being met - admiration, sex, domestic support, admiration. Then kids come along and the woman is not only expected to keep all those going, but she also has to now divide her time between those, the housework, and raising kids. While he continues to blissfully enjoy the benefits. She starts getting frustrated; even if he 'tries' to help with things, in reality he's most likely still 'letting' her be responsible for everything. Her resentment grows, her desire for him reduces as he's the source of most of her resentment, he may SAY he'll step up but rarely does, cycle cycle cycle...until she frankly couldn't care LESS about having sex with the person responsible for the resentment and then HE gets upset and HAS NO CLUE why she's upset because he never really took her seriously when she complained.
> 
> You'll see this play out in almost every.single.book about Walkaway Wives. Who finally decide - usually after 10 to 20 years - what do I need him for? I'm already doing everything.
> 
> Men can pretend this isn't happening. To their own detriment. But it's real, it happens all around us, and those who pretend it's not will find themselves sexless and/or divorced.
> 
> In your case, all those needs you weren't meeting for your wife? Guess what? She found someone ELSE to meet them. Her friend. Sex is no longer an issue for her, so all she really needs is a good friend. And you lost that role years ago.


You encapsulated every reason why I will never marry again.  I simply do not have the time, energy, passion nor desire to be Mr. SuperHusband for any woman ever again. I will be lucky to survive to retirement and have enough money set aside to survive my dotage. Being Senor Passion to a wife is something that I am logistically unable to do. God bless the men who can do that. They are rare.


----------



## turnera

> Turnera, your theory fails to explain the classic nice guy cases. Which most decent men end up being.
> 
> It also fails to suggest any pathology with the woman's communication faculties - apparently she's so busy doing aaaaall those thiiiiiings for her man and kiiiiids that she forgot how to talk and express her needs.
> 
> And one day she walks away, content that she did aaaaaall she could to save the marriage.


You sound as though Nice Guys meet their women's needs. They usually don't. They're too busy ensuring their own needs are met through covert contracts and passive aggressive methods.

And generally nice guys who just are nice? Are forgetting that woman need to be turned on to be all that into sex, and that requires, well, not just being nice.

Read some books on it; you'll see how it plays out.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Hmmmmm seems we're spiraling down into very specific scenarios from generally good ideas.

So - I get and agree LD is real and many women have it. Many (most?) times it simple is due to the passage of time, the fact that sex isn't in the top 5 needs for most women, and they are EITHER unhappy in their marriage OR fully content in their martiage.

So everything can be very satisfying and an LD woman would never initiate and frankly never need sex again.

I've read this several times on the pages of TAM.

So - what to do?

If she really is willing to meet your needs then go for it! Tell her you have a high sex drive, like many or most men, and desire daily sex. You could continue to masturbate but you would prefer the closeness of having sex with her and it will also help your marriage. Tell her you'll figure out specifically what you need as you both work through this. If it is daily it can include relatively quick sessions (hj or bj) with longer PIV xx tunes a week or month.

See what happens. If she says yes, then great. If she says no, explore it more and find out why. If you are willing to do something quick most of the time, what is her objection.

Personally I believe this will make you feel closer to her and encourage you to find out ways of pleasing her better. Then maybe she can begin to express her needs if she believes yould be willing to meet them.

Even LD women can become aroused once sex starts particularly if you condition her to expect sex more often and are getting closer to her. Bits called responsive desire.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> You sound as though Nice Guys meet their women's needs. They usually don't. They're too busy ensuring their own needs are met through covert contracts and passive aggressive methods.
> 
> And generally nice guys who just are nice? Are forgetting that woman need to be turned on to be all that into sex, and that requires, well, not just being nice.
> 
> Read some books on it; you'll see how it plays out.



And walking out - after any intimacy has generally gone the way of the dodo bird unilaterally - is not the ultimate passive aggressiveness ??

Maybe I really need to be turned on to be a good provider , get a six pack, win Powerball, and maybe she'll be turned on.

I've read the books - general enough to make everyone feel like they're it - look you drink water without throwing the glass on the wall: yer a nice guy - and creepy example laden to tell us who we will be it we don't read the magic verses.


----------



## ihatethis

I think that you are avoiding what you needs to be done because you are afraid of the truth. That is how I was when I was searching for answers from my EH. Put your foot down and do something. If she is being unfaithful, she will deny it of course so the best course of action is to see it for yourself. A lot of people have given you many ideas; sorry to put this bluntly but either sh*t or get off the pot. You've been dealing with this for 5 years, it's time to get the answers you deserve. 

I do want to comment on what you said about the porn addiction and that she said when she should have left... (this goes with my thoughts on staying with someone who has cheated)...

She CHOSE to stay. That does not mean that for the rest of your life she can ruin it. For example, if you had cheated, and she CHOSE to stay, she made the decision to forgive and work on the future. That does not give her as many free passes as she wants to make you suffer for a mistake. Once the other person makes the decision to stay and forgive, they need to move on as well.


----------



## Marduk

Yup.

If you wanted to actually know what she's up to, you'd know by now.

So any advice anyone gives you is moot, because you're shooting in the dark and don't want to act.

So act.


----------



## Deguello

Actually, I'm almost ready to put the last few pieces of this puzzle together, I've got some UC work to do,and I'll know pretty much what is or is not going on,the VORs I planted were productive,I know more about my in-laws,more than I really want to know,but what you get is what you get.I'm just going to leave the VORS in place for a while.
We did have a long talk and we did clear up a major point of confusion for me,She has no clue what I'm doing,confrontation is still not immediate.
Deguello:surprise:


----------



## Deguello

You are correct,there was some concern about WHAT was or was not going on,this is a 45 year relationship,not to be just dumped.
She stood by me when I was having some issues,I'm. Going to wait until I have everything "in place" and pretty confident I know what exactly is going on. And then we will deal with "IT".We will get thru this"
Deguello


----------



## ihatethis

Sounds like you already have your mind made up, no matter what happens and that you don't really need our advice anymore.


----------



## bandit.45

Deguello said:


> You are correct,there was some concern about WHAT was or was not going on,this is a 45 year relationship,not to be just dumped.
> She stood by me when I was having some issues,I'm. Going to wait until I have everything "in place" and pretty confident I know what exactly is going on. And then we will deal with "IT".We will get thru this"
> Deguello


Put together your hard, physical evidence. 

Set up your game plan. 

Set aside a time and place where it is just you and her alone with no distractions. 

Lay the evidence out on the table in front of her and let her explain 

Then follow through...

“When a Marine is wounded, surrounded, hungry, or low on ammo, he looks to the sky. He knows the choppers are coming.”


----------



## imtamnew

Backup multiple copies of all evidence in different places.


----------



## Marduk

what pieces are coming together?

what do you know? What do you suspect you know?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

marduk said:


> what pieces are coming together?
> 
> what do you know? What do you suspect you know?


Do tell... What is happening?


----------



## Deguello

What I don't know is that at least the one time that I was able to witness it,as soon as they were BOTH at the place where they have lunch,they went in,they were seated outside,they ordered and lunch came in "To Go" boxes,at which point they both got into her car,the (OW). then they drove away,I assume to her place because I was pulled over by local PD.who said I had a light out,not true,but I lost them in traffic,when they returned, they sat in her car for 30 minutes. Then they both got out,they embraced and kissed and they both went on thier way.I don't Think it was ever an EA. After we had dinner,my wife asked me to get something out of her car,while I was. Getting her keys out of her purse,I saw a pair of black panties stuffed into the bottom, Never in 42 years have I found. Her panties in her purse. I know that they were the ones she put on earlier that day Either she was fooling around or she is trying to get a reaction out of me.any thoughts?


----------



## Marduk

What kind of kiss was it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TAMAT

Degullo, 

Doing a good job keeping cool, what you don't want to do is tip your hand before you have ironclad evidence. You will get years and years of minimization and denial if you do. You've waited this long for your answers you can wait a month or too longer.

In the meanwhile line up a polygraph operator to test your W.

Tamat


----------



## turnera

IIWY, I'd pack up all my stuff one day when she's gone, move out, and just leave a note: He can have you.


----------



## Deguello

I really couldn't tell if they tongue wrestling and trading spit,but they somewhere for the best part of two hours,and thirty minutes in a car,my imagination could go a long way with that
Deguello


----------



## Deguello

With Respect,
He would be a She,so far,beside what started this whole conversation,
I have some audio clips,one side of the conversations,a picture of what might be a lovers kiss in a parking lot two hours unaccounted for
And thirty minutes in a parked car,and a pair of black panties in a purse. It would A tactical mistake To play my hands NOW.
I really appreciate your input,but I still the one in the middle of this
Situation.
Deguello


----------



## Marduk

Ok. 

So what's your plan?

How much evidence is enough?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

You have more than enough redflags for a May Day parade. The only flag you dont have is catching them in the sack together.

Cutting off sex at the same time they started meeting up, hiding while undressing, and so many others. Shes cheating with at least one other person maybe more, maybe a three some.

Can you live with her if its a lesbian relationship?


----------



## Deguello

If it is a Lesbian or Bi relationship,it was in place but hidden long before I came on the scene,as far as living with it,that has yet to be realized, that's why I had an STD. test last week,that will be a huge trust issue at very least. you ask a question I can't answer right now,
That raises an interesting question about Oral sex,(her receiving):|
Deguello

When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back


----------



## Deguello

If it is a Lesbian or a Bisexual relationship,it will put a huge strain on our relationship,She will have to tell her family,and our daughter,I normally do not have an issue with Lesbian or Bisexual people,this would be way to close to home. And it will have been already in place before We met,but well hidden. I just realized that her attitude towards oral sex had changed,and 180 degrees.She used to not like it at all,now she helps me please her.
Deguello


----------



## Deguello

marduk said:


> Ok.
> 
> So what's your plan?
> 
> How much evidence is enough?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Enough evidence so there is NO Wiggle room
Deguello


When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back


----------



## imtamnew

Wiggle room from what?


----------



## Deguello

So that when that conversation does happen,I will have her with no doubt that I know and she will be accountable. She will have to inform The whole family or I will,it will trash a 45 year relationship,that really hurts to know that our marriage could be over. She now. 3.5 hours late from work,can't hardly wait for the excuse this time.
Deguello


When Death Smiles,Marines Smile back


----------



## bandit.45

So what are you waiting for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Why not hand your wife her black panties and ask her "Are you trying to send me a message?"

and when she stares at you like you have two heads then add

"Or did you send someone else a message?"

Try it. You might get an honest response.

But make sure you have the VAR ready in her or in her handbag because you do want to know the next time she forgets where she left her panties......


----------



## Deguello

After I found them I said nothing,she told me that she had an "accident"this is .WGBS.but now she knows.that I know
That she is up to something with
Someone who ain't ME.I knew if I was patient she would make a mistake,
Deguello
Death Smiles At Everyone,Marines Smile Back


----------



## Marduk

chill, man.

What do you want to have happen here?


----------



## ReidWright

bandit.45 said:


> So what are you waiting for?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if she's kept it a secret for 5 long years, she’s not going to admit anything with what he has now. 

A pair of underwear? “Had a senior bladder moment! “
Kissing the woman? “Oh, it wasn’t that long! You’re exaggerating! that’s what ladies do! “
An intimate, but not really sexual conversation on a var? “oh, we were just being silly!”

She’s been in the closet for a 45 year marriage…she’s thought of every excuse in the book

I think you need a PI to see where they go after they pick up food. And/or a pen var in her purse


----------



## bandit.45

ReidWright said:


> if she's kept it a secret for 5 long years, she’s not going to admit anything with what he has now.
> 
> A pair of underwear? “Had a senior bladder moment! “
> Kissing the woman? “Oh, it wasn’t that long! You’re exaggerating! that’s what ladies do! “
> An intimate, but not really sexual conversation on a var? “oh, we were just being silly!”
> 
> She’s been in the closet for a 45 year marriage…she’s thought of every excuse in the book
> 
> *I think you need a PI to see where they go after they pick up food. And/or a pen var in her purse*


:iagree:

In his case I think a PI is the only way he will get solid evidence. What he has now is definitely suspicious, but he needs damning evidence.


----------



## Deguello

Does any one know if it's legal to do surveillance on you own home? It getting to be time for lunch again,this time I won't lose them, I think I know where they are going.
Deguello

When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


----------



## Thor

Remember, never ever reveal your source of information! You shouldn't have let her know you found the panties. Don't let any other suspicions slip! She'll be more careful now. If she finds out any of your spy methods she will know to evade them. Now is the time to act like all is well, while you collect more data.


----------



## Thor

Deguello said:


> Does any one know if it's legal to do surveillance on you own home? It getting to be time for lunch again,this time I won't lose them, I think I know where they are going.
> Deguello
> 
> When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


Legal depends on what you use it for. If it is for only your own info, then nobody will ever know about it. Thus nothing to worry about. But if you're looking for something to use in court, then you have to talk to a good local atty.

In general you should be able to surveil your own home. A nanny-cam or VAR can be placed there for general home security. Lots of people have internet connected cameras in their home to watch the kids or dogs.

Where it gets tricky is a keylogger on the computer. Chances are you would never be prosecuted if found out, but the warning I offer is if there is anything confidential your wife does, be very careful. If she has medical info, patient data, financial client info, or legal client info, then that stuff is all protected by federal and maybe state law. Also, if her computer is owned by her employer you could run into problems with them.

But, again, if you're just looking to read her emails and chat sessions for your own info, nobody is going to prosecute you even if it is probably illegal. Don't show it to anybody.

Same with a VAR. Recording a conversation usually requires at least one person, and sometimes all people, in the conversation to know about the recording. You can put a VAR where she makes private calls, but you can never tell anyone that you've done it, and you can never use the info in court. But it could inform you of what is going on.

Any data you will be using for court needs to be backed up in several secure places. You need a lawyer to help you collect data if it is for court.


----------



## Deguello

I hired a PI today,I am supposed to let him know when the next lunch is supposed to happen.and where, I gave him copies of what I have,he said it was good info,but to easy for her to explain away,
Deguello

When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


----------



## Deguello

The investigation continues,she thinks she found my VAR's,got really HOT about me "snooping" when she played the "tapes" back she had to apologize,they were old VAR tape machines,and had nothing on them of value.the digital models have been almost in plain sight.the next lunch has yet to happen,they have not set a date yet.
Deguello
When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back


----------



## perol

Well if she knows you've placed VARs then she's not going to expose herself by stupidly saying or doing anything that she knows is going to be recorded.


----------



## Deguello

She is not aware of the other VAR's in place,they're secure,the one she found was a DECOY, But I do agree with you,but I pretty confident that she'll make a mistake
Deguello


----------



## farsidejunky

Was the decoy deliberate? Why would you lay out a decoy?


----------



## Deguello

No
,It wasn't even in the house,it was on my workbench in the garage,it was an old model that uses audio tape,she went out to "wash clothes"
And that story is WGBS"weapons Grade Bulls**t if she was just washing clothes,she would have her back to my workbench!,so she was snooping,by mutual agreement that is a Nono. She was mortified when she listened to it,was not what she thought.
Deguello

When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


----------



## JohnA

Why did you have an old Var to begin with? What was on it? 

Seems odd she didn't listen first,


----------



## Deguello

I used to use the VARS to tape meeting,so I could type the minutes when I got home,and to make. Notes while I was driving, kind of an audio journal.
Listening with out me present would have violated our privacy agreement that was made years ago. She insisted on playing it,I told her what it was.She read a written journal of mine while we were in CC,and then ripped me a me new one,for stuff I had written, the MC told her that that personal journals were private.and not ever read them .

Deguello

: When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


----------



## bandit.45

Deguello said:


> I used to use the VARS to tape meeting,so I could type the minutes when I got home,and to make. Notes while I was driving, kind of an audio journal.
> Listening with out me present would have violated our privacy agreement that was made years ago. She insisted on playing it,I told her what it was.She read a written journal of mine while we were in CC,and then ripped me a me new one,for stuff I had written, the MC told her that that personal journals were private.and not ever read them .
> 
> Deguello
> 
> : When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


I record all my business meetings too. 

Yeah she's paranoid you have found something on her. Guilty people act guilty, that is why she is so pissed at you.

Marines make the big messes, but it's the SeaBees who have to clean up after them. Tee hee. 



_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deguello

I like to write stories(fiction).she would come into our office.and i would close the page I'm typing on usually because I was done,she thought I was hiding porn,Most of the time I'm writing in my Journal or writing a story,either way no one reads my Journal or a story I'm writing,she always thinks I'm hiding something.
She has been trying to get me out of the house a lot lately,"Go see your Dad,""Don't you have some work to do at the church"(I'm the Janitor),"Are you going to be working nights any night shifts next week?"
Fairly innocent questions.If my gut was not screaming somethings wrong here.
Deguello
Nothing but respect for Seebee's here.

When Death smiles.Marines Smile Back


----------



## Deguello

intheory said:


> So:
> 
> You've never met this woman.
> 
> You've never seen a picture of her either.
> 
> Your wife took a picture of YOU to show this woman.
> 
> How many years have you been married? You say you are in your sixties. So have you been married for 30-40 years; and in the last 5 your wife starts to undress in the bathroom. Is that right?
> 
> Ask your wife _today _to see a picture of her friend. Say, "she's seen what I look like, so I want to see what she looks like" Your wife should have no problem doing that.


Intheory
Oddly enough she could not find a picture of the OW on her phone/I find that really strange,I'm guessing it is on her laptop,but she could show me the Pic she took of me.


----------



## TAMAT

Deguello,

Your WW has given you the perfect setup the catch her, she was asking you about when you would be away, perhaps you can go "fishing" every week on the same day/time. This will allow her to put her cheating on a schedue.

Tamat


----------



## Seppuku

So have you got anything new so far?


----------



## Deguello

Nothing that is going to make a lot of difference, but I had to work tonight,we'll see what the VAR has to say in the morning.I did tell bow I feel when she hides her body from me,her response was" it's how I was raised,WGBS",this did not start until 2010.
Deguello


----------



## Seppuku

What is your end goal here? Do you want your wife back and things to go back to the way they were, or do you just want to know the truth so you can protect yourself?

Your actions in the meantime will need to be different in both scenarios.


----------



## Deguello

I still love her,we have been together 45 years,married 42 of them,
I just want to know what is going on,why it is going on and how do we fix it. I don't want to "s**t can this relationship if it can be fixed. I will do whatever it takes.
Deguello

US Marine,
Your Best Friend,OR Your Worst Enemy,
The choice is Yours.


----------



## turnera

How long are you going to snoop?


----------



## Deguello

For sure until her next "Lunch",and it should be soon if my guess is close,she has been letting me know when this happens,I will be there but she won't know it. Loaded for bear with audiovisual gear,
That OP is confirmed, planning is almost complete.
Deguello


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello - just to be clear - you're not going to be crawling on the restaurant floor dressed in a ghillie jacket, are you?


----------



## Deguello

No,I will be hiding in plain sight,already in place,I'm not trying to make a 1000 meter shot,


----------



## Deguello

Deguello said:


> No,I will be hiding in plain sight,already in place,I'm not trying to make a 1000 meter shot,


Update
The PI.was able to gather some Intel I didn't have,but so far nothing incriminating. What he said was I "can't find anything that would be
Suspect,we need to catch them together"
Deguello

When Death Smiles,Marines Smile Back.


----------



## Decorum

Stop trying to draw her out (ie dressing in bathroom), AMAP let her feel at ease.


Does your PI have software to copy her laptop hardrive like on NCIS?

.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deguello

I'll ask about the software,what is AMAP?,I'M not sure what you mean,make her feel ease?
Deguello


----------



## Deguello

Keep in mind we have been married over Four Decades,I walked into OUR bedroom,and caught her in just her panties,If looks could kill,I be a dead man. She said"Can't you knock?"and she tried to cover her self,My reply was "It's my bedroom too and the door was open, and. I have seen you naked before,we are married why are you trying to hide your body from me.I got the silent treatment and a frigid attitude. that is more than weird!!
Is that here a list of abbreviations some where?
Deguello


----------



## Marc878

Deguello said:


> Keep in mind we have been married over Four Decades,I walked into OUR bedroom,and caught her in just her panties,If looks could kill,I be a dead man. She said"Can't you knock?"and she tried to cover her self,My reply was "It's my bedroom too and the door was open, and. I have seen you naked before,we are marraied why are you trying to hide your body from me.I got the silent treatment and a frigid attitude. that is more than weird!!
> Is that here a list of abbreviations some where?
> Deguello


Very strange indeed. Hope you get to the bottom of it soon.


----------



## TAMAT

Deguello,

My guess, she does not want you to see her because sexually she belongs to someone else and wants to be "loyal" to that person. 

Tamat


----------



## GA HEART

TAMAT, is "affair" the only place your mind can go? I've been away from the boards a bit and don't remember any previous interaction with you, but in the couple of posts we've hit together, you are just sure of affairs in all of them. Just an observation.

Anyway,

Degullo, I read your initial post and have followed a bit. I'm hoping that her hiding her body is just her insecurities. No telling where they come from sometimes with us ladies. They can crop up at odd times. If that's the case, its on her to work through it. Since you nor your PI has come up with anything (yet) I remain optimistic that your lady is just dealing with her own issues at the moment.


----------



## Justinian

GA HEART said:


> ... Since you nor your PI has come up with anything (yet) I remain optimistic that your lady is just dealing with her own issues at the moment.


I share your optimism, but it is strange behavior after more than forty years. I've been married that long and it would sure have me wondering.

Deguello, is it possible that she has done some "grooming" that she doesn't want you to see?

My wife recently started that, but thankfully she's been showing it off.


----------



## syhoybenden

List of acronyms read and then read down

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/464-common-message-board-abbreviations-acronyms.html


----------



## Catherine602

IDK sounds like she considers you an interloper that she does not like or respect. 

Perhaps it's time to push back. Would you feel comfortable saying this the next time she says something of that nature, "this is my house too and I can walk anywhere I please. If you have a problem with that, you are free to get a lock installed on the guess room door and dress in there. Otherwise, that's the last time I want to hear you use that tone with me or say that to me" 

Say it in a pleasant tone, with respect. You have been nice enough to offer her two solutions to her problem, neither of which involves disrespect. It like dealing with a two year old having a tantrum, give them boundaries with the freedom to choose among alternatives that don't include lack of control. 

It's admirable that you love her and want to stay married but does that mean that you will stay at any cost?


----------



## Deguello

Would "insecurities" just pop up,I have repeatedly told her that I still see the girl I married 42 years ago,I love every inch of her body,there is not a part that I don't love.


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> Would "insecurities" just pop up,I have repeatedly told her that I still see the girl I married 42 years ago,I love every inch of her body,there is not a part that I don't love.


Doubtful. Are you sure she wasn't trying to hide a hickey from you?


----------



## Thor

Hiding new grooming is a possibility. This wouldn't be the first such occurrence on TAM by a long shot.

Unfortunately it is easily explained away with no way to verify. But if she is grooming differently and is hiding it, there is a sea of red flags waving.


----------



## GA HEART

Yes, insecurities could just pop up. Its happened to me. Aging, weight gain, just feeling funky has caused me to feel insecure. And then I feel guilty and silly for feeling that way. Then I get angry and more insecure and the cycle continues. If I'm not careful, I can be stuck in the rut for a while.


----------



## Deguello

If it is "insecurities ",I don't think this secrecy about her friend is part of it,and our sex life going to Sh** is just a reason.(I could be wrong), to punish me for something.
Deguello


----------



## imtamnew

Hey,
How are things?


----------



## Deguello

im_tam said:


> Hey,
> How are things?


I'm still investigating,VAR's are in place PI. has not found anything incriminating or usable,one of her stories has changed Radically,
When I asked again why she was dressing/undressing in the bathroom or out of sight and told her how it made me feel,she said it was a matter of convenience rather than"I'm a private person and its how I was raised.she also said again"I know you think I'm having an affair" this is the fourth time she has brought this up out of the blue"
Bulldog


----------



## Tron

Deguello said:


> I'm still investigating,VAR's are in place PI. has not found anything incriminating or usable,one of her stories has changed Radically,
> When I asked again why she was dressing/undressing in the bathroom or out of sight and told her how it made me feel,she said it was a matter of convenience rather than"I'm a private person and its how I was raised.she also said again"I know you think I'm having an affair" this is the fourth time she has brought this up out of the blue"
> Bulldog


She is on to you and it has gone dormant.

Next time tell her you KNOW she is having or had an affair. She will deny and then ask her if she is willing to take a poly. She will obfuscate and throw it back on you. Then you will know.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Or maybe she isn't and you've blown this out of proportion. Be careful that you don't treat her like she's guilty and create problems that aren't already there.


----------



## Deguello

The last time we had the dressing conversation,she dressed/undressed outside in our bedroom,but with an attitude,I asked if she could do the same thing,with a better attitude.Like Oh All Right,I'm stripping for you,it's like I'm asking her to do something, immoral. And disgusting. 
But still,it is her "go to thing to do"


----------



## turnera

When you two were dating, you were ON THE SAME TEAM.

Somewhere along the road, you two stopped being on the same team.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> When you two were dating, you were ON THE SAME TEAM.
> 
> Somewhere along the road, you two stopped being on the same team.


Indeed


----------



## Seppuku

It seems to me that she is acting guilty, unless she somehow found out what you're doing.

Does she still go to see this friend?


----------



## Deguello

She has not "had lunch" with the OW yet this month that I'm aware of,that does not mean it hasn't happened,I'm just not aware of it.Usually she let's me know when that is going to happen,it is an agreement we have,and so far she has kept me "in the loop".
It's one of the things that drive me nuts about this whole thing,being up front about some things and not about others.

Deguello


----------



## Marc878

Get anything on the VAR


----------



## Chaparral

Deguello said:


> She has not "had lunch" with the OW yet this month that I'm aware of,that does not mean it hasn't happened,I'm just not aware of it.Usually she let's me know when that is going to happen,it is an agreement we have,and so far she has kept me "in the loop".
> It's one of the things that drive me nuts about this whole thing,being up front about some things and not about others.
> 
> Deguello


You're simply assuming she always tells you when they're having lunch correct? You don't have anything to go on except what she tells you.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, voice activated recorders have busted more cheaters here than any other method. VARs and GPS units are fairly cheap and very effective.

Find my phone is deadly.


----------



## Deguello

So far she has let me know when they have lunch,but that can always change,I think she is trying to reassure me that there is nothing going on,I'm. Not convinced of that.If that was the ONLY anomaly I wouldn't be suspicious, and my gut would not tell me that something is wrong.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you ever use any VARs?

If she's gotten suspicious, it will be a lot harder to catch her.

Put a GPS in her car too.

Few cheaters can beat both a VAR and a GPS. If she's wary, put the VAR under the dash where its hard to discern from the other equipment.


----------



## Deguello

Marc878 said:


> Get anything on the VAR


I'm Not getting much on the VAR's she tends to play her radio and CD's on the loud side,but I have one in the B/R,and one in the F/R.so far it's pretty boring stuff,I did get into her phone and got the OW's real cell number.next I look at text and msg traffic.


----------



## Chaparral

Generally, they will turn the radio down to talk on the phone. Its a pain to try and sift through that,lol.


----------



## Marc878

Deguello said:


> I'm Not getting much on the VAR's she tends to play her radio and CD's on the loud side,but I have one in the B/R,and one in the F/R.so far it's pretty boring stuff,I did get into her phone and got the OW's real cell number.next I look at text and msg traffic.


If you can download her text messages that will probably tell you what you want to know.


----------



## Deguello

She had lunch with the OW on Monday (12/8/2015),she informed me a week ahead of that,she knew I was working(she thought),so far lunch is on the Up and Up,I know this because I was there,or an old guy who did not look like me was. Took me a very long time to eat my sandwich. The funny part was the OW paid for my lunch,because I looked like was a "Vet" down on his luck,I may have to look at this from a different perspective.


----------



## Lostinthought61

so did you see anything that made you think that there was something going on?


----------



## easysolution

Deguello said:


> She had lunch with the OW on Monday (12/8/2015),she informed me a week ahead of that,she knew I was working(she thought),so far lunch is on the Up and Up,I know this because I was there,or an old guy who did not look like me was. Took me a very long time to eat my sandwich. The funny part was the OW paid for my lunch,because I looked like was a "Vet" down on his luck,I may have to look at this from a different perspective.



This is looking like a comedy show now. Did you actually wear a "homeless vet" disguise?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Likely to be an EA

several women of acquaintance have "dried up". they get their jollies being on committees, shooting the breeze about absolutely inane trivia and drama (often while not even listening to what the other woman is saying - I quizzed them (separately) once, they had not one fact or situation about the other person correct; I was working on a computer nearby waiting for install, taking notes on the conversation). On the "Love Language" system they're often the "time swappers" or "talk makers" so a public setting, and lots of time to have nothing to achieve, is the perfect relationship for them. no grotty penises, not fluids, just pure 100% ego stroking; their perfect relationship. and sadly you just can't measure up ... which is why you get to be the BS with all the trimmings. You will likely find nothing as there is nothing messy to find.


----------



## Deguello

easysolution said:


> This is looking like a comedy show now. Did you actually wear a "homeless vet" disguise?


I sure did,if nothing else,I got a free lunch,it looked like two schoolgirls trading stories,I saw nothing overt,other than the girl to girl hug and the little kiss and the hands on each others ass . I could have been "Made", but the bartender knows me,and he treated like he didn't know me. I didn't speak,and stayed in my seat most of the time they were there. I still feel like something is going on,I never get to put my hand on her ass in public.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you var her car?

Have you googled the woman in question to see what kind of things she's into? Clubs, Facebook, LinkedIn, twitter, husband, kids?

Have you asked your wife, since she doesn't like sex with you any more, would it bother her if you got it some where else?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Deguello said:


> I sure did,if nothing else,I got a free lunch,it looked like two schoolgirls trading stories,I saw nothing overt,other than the girl to girl hug and the little kiss and the hands on each others ass . I could have been "Made", but the bartender knows me,and he treated like he didn't know me. I didn't speak,and stayed in my seat most of the time they were there. I still feel like something is going on,I never get to put my hand on her ass in public.


Ah...but your hand on her butt would be a sexual thing.
Her friends hand may not be a sexual thing, only a reassuring intimate thing.

sounds very much like a full on g2g EA. I would imagine that your wife and her pal, probably doesn't even realise she is having an affair, she is just spending pleasant time with a good friend. The fact that it replaces you in the relationship, wasn't her intention, now is something she just doesn't want to "buy into" as it would just be a problem she doesn't want to know about (sound familiar to those who have experienced affair fog?). She has what she wants - the kindred soul, and you.... well, you're just a problem and the more you complain or need, the more problem you are...


----------



## imtamnew

Deguello said:


> I sure did,if nothing else,I got a free lunch,it looked like two schoolgirls trading stories,I saw nothing overt,other than the girl to girl hug and the little kiss and the hands on each others ass . I could have been "Made", but the bartender knows me,and he treated like he didn't know me. I didn't speak,and stayed in my seat most of the time they were there. I still feel like something is going on,I never get to put my hand on her ass in public.


How did you explain this to the bartender?


----------



## Hope Shimmers

Wow. I just read this entire thread, thinking I was going to get a solution to the puzzle. Still no end in sight.

But you were dressed as an old veteran down on your luck, to the point that her OW paid for your dinner randomly (what are the odds of THAT?) Wow.

And the bartender recognized you, and knows you, and still, given all of that, your wife allowed the OW to put her hand on her a** with the bartender in full view. Wow, again. Almost beyond belief. (I would think that if the bartender saw through your disguise, so did your wife - just a guess)

Where is the PI? Because he should be there, right? And have great photos of all of this.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Hope Shimmers said:


> Wow. I just read this entire thread, thinking I was going to get a solution to the puzzle. Still no end in sight.
> 
> But you were dressed as an old veteran down on your luck, to the point that her OW paid for your dinner randomly (what are the odds of THAT?) Wow.
> 
> And the bartender recognized you, and knows you, and still, given all of that, your wife allowed the OW to put her hand on her a** with the bartender in full view. Wow, again. Almost beyond belief. *(I would think that if the bartender saw through your disguise, so did your wife - just a guess)*
> 
> Where is the PI? Because he should be there, right? And have great photos of all of this.


I agree with this. I suspect her buying your meal was a not very subtle jab at you.

I think your wife and her girlfriend had a good laugh at you once they left. You should invest in a PI, although you've probably driven it far under ground now.


----------



## Blondilocks

I'm a woman, 65 years old, and have never ever put my hand on another woman's posterior. Nor, have I observed this behavior among women. That's just creepy. Yeah, I'm old but it's still creepy.


----------



## Deguello

We're still Married,If I cheated that would not solve anything,just create something else.


----------



## Deguello

I. VARed her car,put one to catch what goes on when I'm gone,I couldn't even find. Pic of this woman.her FB has no status (married single), she os very secretive about her life and family


----------



## Deguello

I never get to put my hand on her butt in public it is a PDA.


----------



## Chaparral

Well, it was a restaurant, no one would expect them to be making out in the corner. Smart, longtime cheaters aren't going to being doing things that can get back to their significant others.

Btw, an English fellow's wife only cheated on him every six months or so when their traveling jobs crossed paths.


----------



## Deguello

Idts,the bartender was "in on it" from the getgo. You would be surprised at what bandages and home made prosthetics can do not to mention what changing the way you carry yourself, will accomplish. My wife even mentioned what went on,plus I was "at work" a factshe confirmed that I would be at at least twice,I don’t think my wife knew it was me,


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> Idts,the bartender was "in on it" from the getgo. You would be surprised at what bandages and home made prosthetics can do not to mention what changing the way you carry yourself, will accomplish. My wife even mentioned what went on,plus I was "at work" a factshe confirmed that I would be at at least twice,I don’t think my wife knew it was me,


If the bartender was in on it from the get go, why don't you just get him to tell you if she's doing anything inappropriate while she's in the restaurant? Have you asked him if he's seen anything suspicious? Does your wife know you know him? 

Where did she go after she left the restaurant?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Blondilocks said:


> I'm a woman, 65 years old, and have never ever put my hand on another woman's posterior. Nor, have I observed this behavior among women. That's just creepy. Yeah, I'm old but it's still creepy.


I have. but not among the over 45 crowd. I think it's a new wave thing. You probably touched on the shoulder rather than grab a hand as well.


----------



## convert

spotthedeaddog said:


> I have. but not among the over 45 crowd. I think it's a new wave thing. You probably touched on the shoulder rather than grab a hand as well.


they say, you spread less germs kissing on the mouth then shaking hands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3HVg5RLLzA

>


----------



## Deguello

Nucking Futs said:


> If the bartender was in on it from the get go, why don't you just get him to tell you if she's doing anything inappropriate while she's in the restaurant? Have you asked him if he's seen anything suspicious? Does your wife know you know him?
> 
> Where did she go after she left the restaurant?


I don't want to involve Him any more than I have to. the only reason he is doing this because he was cheated on also. The W does not know him,and he said they were not as Cozy as they are normaly, nothing OVERT,just not as cozy,and lunch was 45 minutes shorter than normal.and they both left at The same time in opposite direction,My wife got home shortly after I did,so the time is accurate. I'm confused.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> I don't want to involve Him any more than I have to. the only reason he is doing this because he was cheated on also. The W does not know him,and *he said they were not as Cozy as they are normaly, nothing OVERT,just not as cozy,and lunch was 45 minutes shorter than normal.and they both left at The same time in opposite direction*,My wife got home shortly after I did,so the time is accurate. I'm confused.


They made you.


----------



## Marc878

Yep, she bought your lunch to say. Gotcha!!!!!


----------



## syhoybenden

You're trying to fish with a rifle. Change your strategies.


----------



## Sparta

Marc878 said:


> Yep, she bought your lunch to say. Gotcha!!!!!


When he first posted this I was thinking the same thing. she knows he's on to her. She going to take it deep undercover he'll be lucky if he gets any more information, or unless she get careless
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Ya know, the way this thread has gone and your kind of crazy behavior (really, a disguise with prosthetics?) and past substance abuse, I wonder if she just has a part of her life that she just wants away from you and all alone for her. I don't even think it has to be anything to do of a sexual nature - you guys are older and maybe she's given up on that (women do quite a lot).

Can you guys go to marriage counseling and have an independent person listen to you both and create a safe place to be honest? That might be your best bet.


----------



## JohnA

I am beginning to think you and your wife are enjoying this game of cat and mouse. It seems also a necessary part of your marriage at this point. Not unlike (per his wife's statements - only) knobcreek wife's need to get attention by acting out with other men. Both couples need to fix this issue if the marriage is to be a heathy one.


----------



## Deguello

I kind figured I had to change tactics, FYI I don't really think they figured out it was me, my W has not even hinted that the jig was up,she can't resist an opportunity to catch me at something,and she assumed I was at work,my car was parked at least 4 kliks away.I wore different Sunglasses,my skin was much darker,thats what baby wipes are for and 
I said nothing,it not like she came to my table and started a conversation. They were both far enough away and I was there before they were.


----------



## Deguello

I'm not sure how "deep"she can go,without blowing it. She already thinks I know,she has said that 3/4 times already, out of the blue,different conversations. I don't see how she can any more secretive without making it obvious. So far all I have besides my gut feeling,are things that can be explained away.


----------



## Deguello

I guess that depends on whether you are the cat or the mouse',this is NOT something I really like enjoy, but if I don’t figure it out it will drive me crazy


----------



## Spitfire

So you were sitting far away but they eyeballed you enough to buy you lunch? You were wearing sunglasses in a restaurant? Sorry, they made you. What were you hoping to see in a restaurant? A milkshake with two straws in it? Anything of significance would happen outside the restaurant where you should have been sitting in a rented car waiting to follow. Time to re evaluate your strategy here.


----------



## JohnA

I think you both enjoy this cat and mouse game. What has been the historical dynamics of your marriage?


----------



## bandit.45

Private investigator.


----------



## Bibi1031

bandit.45 said:


> Private investigator.


I thought he already went this route and there was nothing conclusive.


----------



## ReidWright

Deguello said:


> I kind figured I had to change tactics, FYI I don't really think they figured out it was me, my W has not even hinted that the jig was up,she can't resist an opportunity to catch me at something,and she assumed I was at work,my car was parked at least 4 kliks away.I wore different Sunglasses,my skin was much darker,thats what baby wipes are for and
> I said nothing,it not like she came to my table and started a conversation. They were both far enough away and I was there before they were.


Maybe she was too embarrassed to tell her friend that her husband put on sunglasses and blackface and was trying to spy on them!

Seriously, do you think it's normal that two ladies would send lunch money over to a random guy in a bar? of course they noticed you


----------



## bandit.45

Bibi1031 said:


> I thought he already went this route and there was nothing conclusive.


Maybe I'm illiterate....

I just don't remember sh!t anymore....


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe I'm illiterate....
> 
> I just don't remember sh!t anymore....


You may have lost your memory and your mind, but you haven't lost your wit. 

We can at least all be thankful for that. :wink2:


----------



## Deguello

I have to ask,What substance abuse are you refering to, with respect,I am in the middle of this CF,while I appreciate everyones, input,
.,I am the one who knows my wife,"(or at least I thought I was).all of you have given me a lot of different. pOV,and that is what I need I will keep you up to date on how this turns out


----------



## Chris Taylor

Deguello said:


> Idts,the bartender was "in on it" from the getgo. You would be surprised at what bandages and home made prosthetics can do not to mention what changing the way you carry yourself, will accomplish. My wife even mentioned what went on,plus I was "at work" a factshe confirmed that I would be at at least twice,I don’t think my wife knew it was me,


You got made buddy. Her paying for you was just subtly letting you know that.

What did you expect to happen there. If the bartender was in on it, do you know him? Local place? She wouldn't be so stupid as to hold hands with her friend or kiss at the table anywhere she would be recognized.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> I have to ask,What substance abuse are you refering to, with respect,I am in the middle of this CF,while I appreciate everyones, input,
> .,I am the one who knows my wife,"(or at least I thought I was).all of you have given me a lot of different. pOV,and that is what I need I will keep you up to date on how this turns out


You obliquely referred to W sticking by you when you had troubled and I probably mixed that up with another thread and assumed some sort of substance abuse. Guess not?


----------



## Deguello

I was dealing with a Porn addiction,I'm in recovery now,Now I'm trying to figure out what my wife is up to,be it EA or PA.Everything have points to at least an EA.If it's a PA I'm not sure how that is going on,there is very little un accounted for time, at least recently.I'm going to fall back and regroup, and advance in another direction.


----------



## Deguello

Chris Taylor,
I did not EXPECT anything to happen,it was after all a public place.I was only attempting to gather Intel.the bartender was in on it,He did not know it was me until the waitress,told him I need to talk to him,all he said was "I'll be dammed" I did not know that the meal was paid for until l I asked for my check. I am not a novice at this,a little out of practice maybe.but it was good enough for this time.


----------



## Deguello

The W may have slipped up,we were shopping today,and in the middle. Of the. Conversation,she blurts out,"Ruth and I were talking about that on the 9th, when were together" I know what she was doing on the 7th,it was monday,Wednesday she was supposed to be at work until 4:30, A schedule screw up,or so she said,she could not have been in two different places at once. I was at work until2:30,at 2:45 her car was parked at her office,and she arrived home at 4:45. A she was not wearing her scrubs,she did not have time to change. Something smells about this. Any input?


----------



## Thor

Yeah, stfu about it with your wife. You'll get nowhere asking her questions. When she slips up like that, don't react. If you can ask a totally innocent question, maybe ask it, though erring on the side of stfu would be best.

She'll never tell you the truth about whatever happened on the 9th. Never. She'll claim she said the wrong date, she'll make up some cover story, she'll claim you misheard her and she never said anything like that.

Just write it down in a password protected file so you can keep an accurate record.

You have a lot of smoking guns but no dead bodies yet. These suspicious things are indeed suspicious, but don't prove anything. Stay calm, bide your time.


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## bandit.45

If your wife has gone ***** there is not a damn thing you can do about it. Best get your affairs in order, line up your evidence, and D.


----------



## Tron

bandit.45 said:


> If your wife has gone ***** there is not a damn thing you can do about it. Best get your affairs in order, line up your evidence, and D.


Or skip the evidence and just tell her you are moving out. 5 years of this crap has killed what love you had for her, that you are sick of her $hit and want to separate. 

Is there any real intimacy left in this marriage anyway? 

I mean, chrissakes...she won't even let you see her in her panties.


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## Deguello

We are still "Intimate once or twice a month" but it seem like she just not into it,I could be wrong,but she tells me "she don't need it" as much as I do that is why sex is obligatory,Personally I think that is Weapons Grade Bull****.
she still dresses/undresses in the bathroom,still seems "put out" when I see her nude,still gets touchy feebly and want to snuggle, as a rule that is all I get to see is her panties.
"I'm not convinced that she is playing for the other side" but behaving weird is an understatment


----------



## turnera

Dude. That's what women do when they live with men they have no sexual desire for. The 'sexual desire' men in our lives, we're ok with them seeing our bodies. 

Everybody else?

OFF LIMITS.


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## Chaparral

She's to sure of herself with you. You're taken for granted.

Check out the book about attraction and see if you've become overly domesticated. Its the mmslp book linked to below. Its downloadable at amazon too.

You probably need to be less predictable, more unavailable and make her wonder what your up to. Distance makes the heart, (jealousy) grow fonder.


----------



## Mike11

She is playing the other side, I am almost certain, taking all what you have mentioned, all the signs, her distancing and alienating affection from you is very telling, this is at least an EA, she is also having "Freudian Slips" mentioning her EA, I think it will take some time but eventually this will come out, Keep digging,


----------



## Deguello

I have to wonder,is she turning Bisexual? Or just experimenting. With a woman,oral was not some thing she really "enjoyed" receiving and as far as returning the favor,3 times in 45 years.
I'm just a little confused, I was trying not to go there,I guess I was just hoping not. she didn't really like OS,why would she hookup with a female.?


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## Marc878

Two words. Strap on


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## Deguello

I was trying not have that running my head,that wouldbe the untimate insult


----------



## Chaparral

Things change.
Straight womens prefered type of porn is supposedly lesbian porn. The most searched porn on the internet is lesbian porn. Who woull


----------



## Nucking Futs

This doesn't necessarily have to be a lesbian affair. It's possible that she's not spending as much time with her friend as you think, she's using the friend as cover to get out to see her boy friend. It's also possible that your wife has joined her friend and her husband in a poly relationship. It could also just be a platonic EA. There's not much point in torturing yourself with mind movies of stuff that may not be happening.


----------



## Deguello

Nucking Futs,
That is a very good point,I don’t KNOW what is going on,I could be really off base,that's part of the problem,I don’t Know.


----------



## Deguello

Everything I have points to an affair,she slipped up last week about where she was on 12/9.I can't find enough misseing time to recently to validate my suspicion. My gut tells me somethings is up,both t I cannot find it.


----------



## eric1

Refresh me...what kind of phone does she have again?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Maybe I'm illiterate....
> 
> I just don't remember sh!t anymore....


Or maybe he needs a BETTER PI?

Damn! I just had to edit that post because my stupid Android phone just converted it into Dutch! But I have no translation software on my phone. Or perhaps I do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Deguello said:


> I have to ask,What substance abuse are you refering to, with respect,I am in the middle of this CF,while I appreciate everyones, input,
> .,I am the one who knows my wife,"(or at least I thought I was).all of you have given me a lot of different. pOV,and that is what I need I will keep you up to date on how this turns out


He liked to look at porn. That was all. No alcohol or drug problem.

Just some folks who jumped to conclusions. 

Though might the porn use be the excuse for the cheating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Tron said:


> Or skip the evidence and just tell her you are moving out. 5 years of this crap has killed what love you had for her, that you are sick of her $hit and want to separate.
> 
> Is there any real intimacy left in this marriage anyway?
> 
> I mean, chrissakes...she won't even let you see her in her panties.


Oh, dear. You saw All those hot babes in the porn mags or the porn sites and she thinks you are comparing her old body with their young bodies?

This might be an issue you need to address.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deguello

I'm Sober over two years ,we had that discussion, years ago before 2010,she SAID she forgave me, that DOES not explain what is going on now. We were having sex 2X Week until 2010 and it all but stopped overnight to 1x a month..maybe, with no real explaining.


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## Deguello

She has a Samsung smart phone,I'm. Not sure which one it is


----------



## Deguello

I keep telling her I still see the girl I married,those babes were meaningless in the big picture,I'm. Still in love with HER


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Deguello said:


> I keep telling her I still see the girl I married,those babes were meaningless in the big picture,I'm. Still in love with HER


What babes are you referring to?


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## MattMatt

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What babes are you referring to?


Girls/women in porn magazines/websites.


----------



## MattMatt

Deguello said:


> I'm Sober over two years ,we had that discussion, years ago before 2010,she SAID she forgave me, that DOES not explain what is going on now. We were having sex 2X Week until 2010 and it all but stopped overnight to 1x a month..maybe, with no real explaining.


She might have mentioned the porn issue to her friend who worked on it over time, until it was again a big issue in your wife's mind.

Which would give her friend a way in.


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## ReidWright

MattMatt said:


> She might have mentioned the porn issue to her friend who worked on it over time, until it was again a big issue in your wife's mind.
> 
> Which would give her friend a way in.


Or, I still say a possibility is that his wife basically has told her friend what a horrible husband/person he is, and she's worried she'll look like a liar if the friend meets him, and finds out he's just a normal guy. 

Sometimes people get into one-upmanship contests about how terrible their spouse is...often embellishing the stories for dramatic effect. Sure, the porn issue was real, but inappropriate to share with this friend.

If something was going on, I would think something would have turned up on the VAR. OP, are you still monitoring?


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## Chaparral

Have you put a var in her car and house?


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## Deguello

The VAR are both still in place,she is still being "nice" to me,however,there still seems to be an "elephant in the room"I did ask her if there was anything that she needed to tell me. And she said No,why do you ask? All I said was you seem "tense" and a little "on edge"


----------



## Chaparral

Have you heard any of her convos with her friend at all. If not I would suspect a burner phone.


----------



## Seppuku

Probably referring to other women, even in porn or magazines, as "babes" didn't help. Just a thought.


----------



## TAMAT

Degulleo,

You are in a tough spot because from all you wrote it is not a hot affair where people lose their minds and are easy to catch, but it's more like a long term stable affair or a friends with benefits arrangement. It's going to be difficult for you to even build up enough evidence to ask for a polygraph.

It's rather common though for spouses to confront or tip their hand before they have adequate evidence, which leaves the cheater in a position of being able to deny, and leaves their marriage in a state of limbo for years. 

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

No clear conversation,and she has deleted the text in her phone,she has a galaxyS5.I'VE. Referred to those women as "babes" within earshot of the W,foolish qnd very dangerous.


----------



## Deguello

I don't Think I'VE. Tipped my hand,just asked a question,gave her the opportunity to come clean and get rid of the elephant in the room,the ball is in her court now.


----------



## Marc878

Deguello said:


> I don't Think I'VE. Tipped my hand,just asked a question,gave her the opportunity to come clean and get rid of the elephant in the room,the ball is in her court now.


You have nothing but you asked her this?

Yep, you tipped your hand.


----------



## imtamnew

Deguello said:


> No clear conversation,and she has deleted the text in her phone,she has a galaxyS5.I'VE. Referred to those women as "babes" within earshot of the W,foolish qnd very dangerous.


A lot of women call each other babe.

 also use the kiss emoticon.
It means nothing like an affair or anything.


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## Chaparral

I forget, does your wife work? What does she do?


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, have you checked her clothing to see if there is sexy underthings that you never see her wear? Did any of her personal grooming habits, hair style, clothing, music, workouts, weight, etc. change about the same time she started cutting you off?


----------



## Deguello

my W is the Dental profession,has worked at the same office for 30+years,one of the Dr,s has a thing for older women.


----------



## Deguello

I check the dirty clothes basket daily,depends on where she has been,no new lingerie that I've noticed.the dressing /undressing in the bathroom did start when she reconnected with the OW,and that is when our sex life went to S**t I have noticed on occasion she is wearing different panties when she gets home than when she left,


'
<


----------



## Deguello

I don't really think I've tipped my hand,she asks me that all the time,usually it has to do with my "sobriety" and I ask her for the same reason,so it is not unusual,


----------



## Chaparral

Have you gpsed her car? How do you know she isn't meeting up with her more often than she is mentioning?

How does she explain she basically cut you off? Does she know you think it started when she started seeing the other woman?

Have you ever discussed separation ?


----------



## Deguello

I don't Know if she is meets the OW more than she's letting on,but I also cannot find any blocks of time unaccounted for recently,Her reason for the obligatory sex is that"I need it" more than she does so I have to initiate anything. She has multiple excuses for not wanting sex,cold sore,it's too late,I feel like I'm coming down with something,the list is long,but still it is Weapons Grade Bulls**t,she will invent reasons for no sex. I had a GPS in her car,but she took it to the dealership because of a "check engine" light,the Tech took it out of the OBD and left it on the seat and she pitched it. We have not discussed seperation recently. I know all of this weirdness started after she reconnected with the OW,I just didn't connect the dots right away.


----------



## Marc878

Busted again. Rats


----------



## ReidWright

Deguello said:


> I had a GPS in her car,but she took it to the dealership because of a "check engine" light,the Tech took it out of the OBD and left it on the seat and she pitched it.


wait a minute. She 'pitched it' knowing it was a gps? was it marked or did the tech tell her? and she didn't tear into you about it? 

or she just pitched it because she didn't know what it was? would anyone throw away a piece of electronics that was in their car without asking about it? 

this is sounding a little unbelievable now


----------



## thread the needle

Deguello said:


> I have noticed on occasion she is wearing different panties when she gets home than when she left


WTF?


----------



## Deguello

False alarm.she did not know what it was so she dropped it in the door pocket.it is back in place.


----------



## Deguello

W.T.F is what I said,so I gave it over a week just to be sure. I was not imagining it,she is coming home in different panties than she left in,that can mean only one thing to me. any other suggestions


----------



## Be smart

Wait a minute. Did you ever asked her about it and are you ready to listen more of her excuses?

She always have some nice story for you when you ask her about problems in your Marriage and you suck it up like a good boy.

You know she is doing all of this because she can. You allowed all of this to happen because you never reacted to her manipulations,you just let it go.


----------



## Marc878

Sounds like an OM not woman. Maybe her friend is the middle person. She wouldn't be changing her panties for a woman. Better hone up on your gps skills.


----------



## john117

The OBD plug should have all kinds of telemetry data on location, speed, stops, and the like. Nothing panned out?


----------



## turnera

Weren't you going to hire a PI?


----------



## Chaparral

I cantbremember if she works but it sounds like a work place affair.

Get a pen var for her purse.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Incontinence


----------



## ReidWright

Deguello said:


> W.T.F is what I said,so I gave it over a week just to be sure. I was not imagining it,she is coming home in different panties than she left in,that can mean only one thing to me. any other suggestions


I thought she never undressed in front of you anymore. But you know exactly what panties she has on at all times?


----------



## Deguello

Our dirty laundry hamper is in the bedroom not the bathroom,I do see what she puts on in the AM,It is not the same ones she put in the hamper at night,so I have to assume she changes sometime during the day it is not everyday but often enough to pay attention to,don’t. You think?


----------



## Deguello

The lunch was cut short because of very heavy rain,and some serious wind, I can verify that because I drove thru it to arrive "on station"after the porn addiction life was more or less "normal" until she reconnected with the OW.
Why would she give the illusion she is having some kind of affair if she is not. Everything I have points to an affair, but I have no hard evidence. She maybe in her 60's,but I still see the girl I married 42+years ago,and here is not any part of her own that I don't love,I ain't no spring chicken either,there are some miles on me also. I would rather have one REALLY hot 63 year old than a picture of a hot 21 year old.I don't believe for a heartbeat that she switched to the other team. An EA is possible. But I don't know,but I don't believe in coincidence,not about this.


----------



## turnera

You could always take some of those dirty panties and get them DNA tested and compare against your own.


----------



## Deguello

I am not prepared to blow up my marriage until I have some actual hard evidence,
I know that I am too easy going,but I have requested her to leave the GPS functions on when she goes anywhere,so far she has complied With my request,that does not mean I stop looking.What I don't understand is if she is not having an affair why is she trying to make me think she is. I have no secrets from my wife,except for the one's I have from Vietnam,she doesn't need to hear those,my decision,fo her safety.


----------



## Deguello

turnera said:


> You could always take some of those dirty panties and get them DNA tested and compare against your own.


Tunera,
I may just do that,I really did not think about that


----------



## Deguello

She works in a Dental office,the only males are the two Dr's,I'm. Not seeing anything there,I've known both of them for a very long time,It would be a real mistake for either one of them to get involved in something like a workplace affair.


----------



## CuddleBug

Deguello said:


> We are both in our early 60's,our sex life until 2010 was actually pretty good,we averaged 1,2 per week.In 2010 it dropped to 1x per month MAYBE,at the same time she reconnected with female classmate.
> They began "having lunch" once or twice a month,I did not have an issue with this,right away. Lunch would last two to three hours.
> 
> When this woman would call,my wife would race outside or back to the bedroom until she was finished with the conversation,I thought this was "odd".
> When. I asked when we were going to have dinner,socialize,I was told in a hostile manner,"That was not going to happen,ever!" and she has been very defensive about it since then.I still have not met either one of these people.and it has been 5 years
> Am I not seeing something.any suggestions? Advice




Could be your wife likes the ladies as well.


Could also be she likes her privacy when talking on the phone. Mrs.CuddleBug always goes into another room to talk on the phone, with friends, family, and co-workers, etc.


She may just have found a new best friend and she's happy to have that.


If your wife was into the ladies, you would of known that when she was in her young years, teens and 20's I'd say and not suddenly 60's.


Could be the start of an EA. Investigate and find out what's really going on.


I'd say hire a P.I. to be sure.


----------



## TAMAT

Cuddlebug wrote, *If your wife was into the ladies, you would of known that when she was in her young years, teens and 20's I'd say and not suddenly 60's.*

If you read early on in this thread the woman was a classmate. So while I agree that she may not have "changed teams" this seems more like a special relationship with physical aspects that both women would not view as lesbian. I think some women would view kissing or even mutual masturbation with another woman as cheating. 

This may be a continuation of something which occurred while they were classmates.

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

TAMAT said:


> Cuddlebug wrote, *If your wife was into the ladies, you would of known that when she was in her young years, teens and 20's I'd say and not suddenly 60's.*
> 
> If you read early on in this thread the woman was a classmate. So while I agree that she may not have "changed teams" this seems more like a special relationship with physical aspects that both women would not view as lesbian. I think some women would view kissing or even mutual masturbation with another woman as cheating.
> 
> This may be a continuation of something which occurred while they were classmates.
> 
> Tamat


That thought crossed my mind,if this is a continuation of some that started in school,it may have progressed farther than I'm comfortable with I have to be very careful how I proceed .I would view MM,petting and kissing as cheating.


----------



## MrHappyHat

She busted you at the restaurant and has upped her OpSec. Now half of her fun is from tweeking your nose (Swapping out panties, "The check engine light was on and the mechanic found this 'doo-hickey.'") as well as whatever it is she's doing with her friend.

If she *hasn't* busted you, then the panty-swapping points to another man. That is, he's finishing inside of her and she has post-coitus drip. She may be engaging with FFM sessions with her friend and that woman's husband, or they're both cheating on their spouses.

Then again, because she most likely busted you at the restaurant, she could just be borking with your mind.

Being the paranoid person I am, at this point I'd sweep *my* car, phone, and computer for eavesdropping devices.


----------



## Deguello

MrHappyHat said:


> She busted you at the restaurant and has upped her OpSec. Now half of her fun is from tweeking your nose (Swapping out panties, "The check engine light was on and the mechanic found this 'doo-hickey.'") as well as whatever it is she's doing with her friend.
> 
> If she *hasn't* busted you, then the panty-swapping points to another man. That is, he's finishing inside of her and she has post-coitus drip. She may be engaging with FFM sessions with her friend and that woman's husband, or they're both cheating on their spouses.
> 
> Then again, because she most likely busted you at the restaurant, she could just be borking with your mind.
> 
> Being the paranoid person I am, at this point I'd sweep *my* car, phone, and computer for eavesdropping devices.


If she is screwing another man,why am I NOT finding any leftovers,she never got all of me out of her, there are one or two more options on this subject and she has never even considered either one of those options.


----------



## Deguello

CuddleBug said:


> Could be your wife likes the ladies as well.
> 
> 
> Could also be she likes her privacy when talking on the phone. Mrs.CuddleBug always goes into another room to talk on the phone, with friends, family, and co-workers, etc.
> 
> 
> She may just have found a new best friend and she's happy to have that.
> 
> 
> If your wife was into the ladies, you would of known that when she was in her young years, teens and 20's I'd say and not suddenly 60's.
> 
> 
> Could be the start of an EA. Investigate and find out what's really going on.
> 
> 
> I'd say hire a P.I. to be sure.


Before she "reconnected " with the OW she never left the room to take a phone call,everything was out in the open,she did not go into the bathroom to dress\undress too many things happened to be a coincidence I at least knew her friends,and our sex life was "normal".


----------



## CuddleBug

Deguello said:


> Before she "reconnected " with the OW she never left the room to take a phone call,everything was out in the open,she did not go into the bathroom to dress\undress too many things happened to be a coincidence I at least knew her friends,and our sex life was "normal".



If you can, hire a Private Investigator.


Could be a harmless friendship.

Or it could be an EA turning into something more.....who knows.

But I would say she is doing more than talking.....find out discretely so you aren't burned if she is innocent.

Let us know. Wish you the best.


----------



## Chaparral

If she goes out of the room to talk on the phone, where does she go to talk? That's where you put one of the VARs.


----------



## turnera

If she's making out with another woman, she might be using a liberal amount of hand lotion, and thus the panties would end up gooey; thus needing a change.


----------



## Deguello

I have a VAR in our bedtoom,I have one in the kitchen and one in her car


----------



## Chaparral

Deguello said:


> I have a VAR in our bedtoom,I have one in the kitchen and one in her car


So how long have you been monitoring? She goes off to talk but nothing has shown up?

I would reconsider your certainty nothing is going on with a coworker.

I would also reconsider her commitment to your marriage.

The MMSLP linked to below has a MAP plan to reinvigorate a marriage from the male point of view. 
go to amazon and read the reviews at least. Simply seeing you doing other things and not being available may pique and renew her interest.


----------



## turnera

Good grief. Just hire the PI and get this drama over with.


----------



## manfromlamancha

turnera said:


> Good grief. Just hire the PI and get this drama over with.


Agreed - else its starting to read like Creative Writing 101 !


----------



## ReidWright

turnera said:


> Good grief. Just hire the PI and get this drama over with.


he did! see starting at post #124 back in October.

"I hired a PI today,I am supposed to let him know when the next lunch is supposed to happen.and where, I gave him copies of what I have,he said it was good info,but to easy for her to explain away,
Deguello


----------



## turnera

Yeah, and then, IIRC, he said the PI said he couldn't find anything so they gave up because he didn't want to pay any more. And here we are, months later, with nothing.


----------



## MattMatt

Could be that the wife is well aware of his suspicions and is using her friend to yank his chain?

"Hey! I know what will make his ears steam! Take an extra pair of panties with you and change into the spare pair before you get home!"

And so forth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deguello

MattMatt said:


> Could be that the wife is well aware of his suspicions and is using her friend to yank his chain?
> 
> "Hey! I know what will make his ears steam! Take an extra pair of panties with you and change into the spare pair before you get home!"
> 
> And so forth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While I really appreciate your input,I'm in the middle of this CF,so I'll proceed on the path that I think is correct,just in case she is aware of my actions,I'm going to "go dark"watch and wait.I've got the time.I'm pretty patient.


----------



## Deguello

I've been monitoring for at least two months,I get 1/2 of each conversation,nothing that really sounds odd or incriminating, I'm. Now t ruling out anything,she has made two mistakes


----------



## Deguello

Deguello said:


> I've been monitoring for at least two months,I get 1/2 of each conversation,nothing that really sounds odd or incriminating, I'm. Now t ruling out anything,she has made two mistakes


Honestly,I'm getting to the point where I am wondering if this is really going anywhere,I'm going to get the gps installed and just wait,she has made two mistakes that I can see. Now that her mom is involved in the deception.
I did get a call from her Dad,he is not real pleased with either one of them,but I suggested that he keep this between the two of us until this happens again,he did "make a suggestion" that I watch one of the local motels when the W is not where she should be.If this drama is close to an end. He is a little pissed about the whole thing


----------



## turnera

Wow, her own dad told you what motel she goes to? Yikes!


----------



## Deguello

Not in as many worbbds,but he did make Suggestions about something might have overheard while "napping"


----------



## marriedmanhere

Deguello said:


> Not in as many worbbds,but he did make Suggestions about something might have overheard while "napping"


what was said? I don't recall reading anything about this.


----------



## Deguello

MIL was talking to the W on the phone when she was MIA,FIL heard enough to figure out where who it was and where she was going

When he got the chance he called me and gave me some suggestions on where she might be. He is pissed at his wife for getting involved.


----------



## Deguello

The one thing I liked about my in laws was that they did not interfere,until now, I'm going to let my FIL deal with his wife,I have enough to deal with on my own backyard.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK so I can't wait. How does this story end ?


----------



## Deguello

I would like full disclosure,No Contact, and complete access to her phone,Ipad lap top.and the GPS on her phone stays ON and at least for a while,I know where she is at all times and both of us will go to MC
I have to wonder how much of this is common knowledge in the family, Who knew what when,if mom knew,her sister probably did to.
I would like to Know what she told them


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK ….? And …… are you going to get all this ?


----------



## ReidWright

did this story skip a page?

did you actually catch her doing something? you have vars, a PI, gps, etc. deployed. Any evidence, or just the FIL overhearing something while napping (how old is he if you're both 60?)


----------



## turnera

If it were me, I'd go to that motel and pay the clerks a big fat bribe to inform you whenever she goes there.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

turnera said:


> If it were me, I'd go to that motel and pay the clerks a big fat bribe to inform you whenever she goes there.


Exactly what I was going to post. Do you have the date? They can help or you might even get a stool pigeon for the next time she comes for the right price. I bet a Benjamin reward for spotting her would solve this problem. (Like the old timer stool pigeon reference? Yeah I liked it too  )


----------



## Deguello

The in laws are in their 80's,Dad' hearing is still pretty good,considering she was sitting on the couch next to him. The W has made two tactical errors,one was a "slip of the tongue and the other was lies one after the other. MIL is covering for the W,FIL is feeding me intel when he can. The W is working all day tomorrow,or so she says. The last time she worked all day there were two changes of clothing,and 4 hours of unaccounted time.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I gotta be honest, I've had a strange feeling about you - some times I think you just might be crazy and paranoid, then you draw me back in. IDK. I feel for you if this is true because you shouldn't have to go through this kind of sh^t in a marriage to someone who is supposed to have your back in life.

Tell us more about the W. I don't really have a sense of her. IDK maybe what you write about her will trigger ideas from some here on TAM.


----------



## Deguello

manfromlamancha said:


> OK ….? And …… are you going to get all this ?


That is what I want,If I didn't get FD,NC, I will send everything I have to the OWH.


----------



## Sparta

I try to follow this thread. I think I'm pretty interested in it, I guess. the OP either leaves out information that is needed. Seems like he's all over the place, and I know it's not just me, because other people are asking amp for more information on developing events. 0P please be a little bit more descriptive when posting new information. He just posted something about motels, his father-in-law, then he brought up, talking about someone sitting next to somebody, and somebody hearing something. What's need more information. please post with more information,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deguello

She has "control issues "Perfection. Issues,sex is obligatory because we're married. Finds or invents reasons not to have sex. She has trust issues (with me) because of my porn issue.I have trust issues with women in general.


----------



## Deguello

I'll try to clear it up for you,but it will have to be at a later date,OK?


----------



## turnera

Well, hell, now that you know her location, just hire a PI to put a low-quality tail (i.e. hire some college kid hungry for a few bucks) to stake out the motel for the next couple of weeks. Shouldn't cost you more than a few hundred bucks and you're bound to get a hit.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

I'm feeling the panties thing is just to mess with your head, as retailation "for you not trusting her" (with a side helping of hoping you'll take the active part in leaving)


----------



## Seppuku

Just a thought here - could she be helping her friend through something that is private, such as a bad divorce or something, hence all the secrecy? I know it's unlikely, but since you still don't have any hard evidence, all possibilities are still possibilities.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

So you have her car gpsed for Fri. I would follow her to see if she goes to work at all if its not a real time gps. Then I would check to see if she leaves at lunch. Etc. If you have a real time gps great.

It seems to me if shes meeting at a hotel there is a man involved.


----------



## Deguello

My FIL overheard MIL talking to my wife,their daughter,MIL was sitting close to FIL
And thinking he was sleeping,carried on a very informative conversation. My MIL is helping my WW cover this up,FIL called me,with a "heads up" to tell me what he heard. He just want to be left out of any Fallout


----------



## imtamnew

Deguello said:


> My FIL overheard MIL talking to my wife,their daughter,MIL was sitting close to FIL
> And thinking he was sleeping,carried on a very informative conversation. My MIL is helping my WW* cover this up*,FIL called me,with a "heads up" to tell me what he heard. He just want to be left out of any Fallout


Cover what up?

You do realize we have no clue if your wife is in love with her female friend or is into something else...

I would still recommend going the PI route.
Not sure how you will react when you actually see her cheat on you. I know that I will not be in a position of sanity. So protect yourself from yourself, would be my advice to you.

If you have any weapons at home, now is the time to give them in for some cleaning or repair. You don't want guns in the house at this point of time.


----------



## Deguello

The WW is under the impression that I'm working on Friday,I have a rental car lined up so I can follow her,and my camera with a new Sd card. The OW's marriage seems to be OK,from what I can tell on FB. However, that would is never very accurate.


----------



## Blondilocks

So, just what did dear old dad hear?


----------



## Deguello

Keep in mind,he heard 1/2 of the conversation,"what kind of a favor"you want me to lie to Gary,if he calls,and your in the bathroom,you will call him back.I need to know why I'm lying to your husband. so your spending the afternoon with Ruth,why in a motel room at the Dunes,We need to talk about this. what if Gary drops by.I'm not doing this again Leslie if this is what it sounds like, you have a lot at stake,yes you will explain it to me and you will have to explain it to gary. Thats what he remembers any way.


----------



## turnera

Well, at least you know it's a woman now.


----------



## Deguello

All I Know is that they were classmates up thru High School,and they were good friends. I know that she is married has been almost as long as we have. I know that she enjoys their time together,and she is a good listener,I know my wife has no interest in me meeting her or her H.,she made that VERY clear to me,that we would never meet,be social. I know something is out of whack,what else could it be.
My gut says that something is very wrong. every thing points to something intimate,tell me I'm crazy,that I'm paranoid,


----------



## Deguello

I have always thought it was a woman,but that doesn't clear anything up,something is off center, a Disturbance in the Force, 
curious it is.


----------



## turnera

Deguello said:


> All I Know is that they were classmates up thru High School,and they were good friends.
> 
> "so your spending the afternoon with Ruth,why in a motel room at the Dunes"


In all my 57 years, I have never ONCE seen a woman spend time with another woman in a motel room. Never. What are they gonna do? Sample Avon products?

The simple fact that my wife spent time with another woman in a motel room without telling me - proof or not - would be ENOUGH for me to divorce her.

Maybe you're just her beard.


----------



## ReidWright

turnera said:


> In all my 57 years, I have never ONCE seen a woman spend time with another woman in a motel room. Never. What are they gonna do? Sample Avon products?
> 
> The simple fact that my wife spent time with another woman in a motel room without telling me - proof or not - would be ENOUGH for me to divorce her.
> 
> Maybe you're just her beard.


I've never heard a 60+ year old woman tell her 80+ year old mother to lie to her son-in-law with such a specific and unnecessarily-detailed reason.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It's quite the story


----------



## Deguello

I thougt it was mighty weird,but I also know that mothers will do funny things for their children,
Dad might not have been accurate. It will all come out of hen TSHTF. So far most of it is compartmentalized.I don't think I'm her "beard"
We'll see what turns up on Friday. Wednesday was a non-event,she was where she was supposed. To be.


----------



## manfromlamancha

ReidWright said:


> I've never heard a 60+ year old woman tell her 80+ year old mother to lie to her son-in-law with such a specific and unnecessarily-detailed reason.


Thats because he is just a beginner at this. The skills are evolving though, up from 101 level. The plot thickens ….


----------



## lucy999

turnera said:


> Well, at least you know it's a woman now.


Maybe.

Ugh. I really hate to say this. I'm sorry, OP, for thinking this, but maybe she's getting together with her girlfriend and they're doing someone else in the hotel room? Threesome? Or worse?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Deguello said:


> Ruth,why in a motel room at the Dunes,We need to talk about this. what if Gary drops by.*I'm not doing this again Leslie*.


This bothers me more than anything in this thread. I know you need your proof, but I'd have all the divorce papers filled out and ready to be served at the hotel room. 

Zero chance for reconciliation.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This bothers me more than anything in this thread. I know you need your proof, but I'd have all the divorce papers filled out and ready to be served at the hotel room.
> 
> Zero chance for reconciliation.


:iagree::iagree:
I would hand her the papers and walk away.


----------



## Deguello

You know what they say about keeping a secret,the more people involved more chance of another slip up.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

lucy999 said:


> turnera said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, at least you know it's a woman now.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Ugh. I really hate to say this. I'm sorry, OP, for thinking this, but maybe she's getting together with her girlfriend and they're doing someone else in the hotel room? Threesome? Or worse?
Click to expand...

Hmmm or gangbang or animals or maybe she's a dominatrix and they are a duo and dudes come there to get their humiliation on. In fact, I like this one the best.


----------



## lucy999

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmm or gangbang or animals or maybe she's a dominatrix and they are a duo and dudes come there to get their humiliation on. In fact, I like this one the best.


Oh come on, I don't think my scenario was that far fetched.


----------



## Deguello

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This bothers me more than anything in this thread. I know you need your proof, but I'd have all the divorce papers filled out and ready to be served at the hotel room.
> 
> Zero chance for reconciliation.


Regardless of what does or does not happen,there is always a chance for reconciliation, but there will be consequences for everybody involved,depend on the. Pride factor.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I'm speaking for myself. Collusion from the family and more than one incident...nope.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

lucy999 said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm or gangbang or animals or maybe she's a dominatrix and they are a duo and dudes come there to get their humiliation on. In fact, I like this one the best.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh come on, I don't think my scenario was that far fetched.
Click to expand...

No I completely agree with you! My point is that you are right and we can't assume it's something simple. We only know a few broken facts.


----------



## Deguello

I'm not seeing a threesome,if it's anything its one on one,pardon the pun.,I've been wrong before,my own imagination is pretty vivid
I've probably thought of some pretty odd scenarios but I doubt there is more than the two.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Well, if it does go down be prepared to control your emotions:
No weapons.
No liquor.
No idiocy.

If it looks bad, just leave. Don't get in any type of confrontation. Remember, even if she is your wife, it is still male vs. female. You'll end up with the short end of the stick, concerning the authorities if called, regardless of the provocation.


----------



## Deguello

I'm not big on revenge,it is counter productive,and no one wins,but there will be consequences,no one gets a pass on this.


----------



## Deguello

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, if it does go down be prepared to control your emotions:
> No weapons.
> No liquor.
> No idiocy.
> 
> If it looks bad, just leave. Don't get in any type of confrontation. Remember, even if she is your wife, it is still male vs. female. You'll end up with the short end of the stick, concerning the authorities if called, regardless of the provocation.


I understand what your saying,I'm going to remain calm,I will be unarmed as uncomfortable as that makes me.I have a trusted friend who will watch out for me.


----------



## manfromlamancha

So…. the plot thickens! 

60+ yr old Gary is dumbfounded at the indecorous comportment of his 60+ yr old wife Leslie (by the way this is the male spelling of the name - Lesley is the female version - just for future reference)!!! 

Leslie has been spending time away with her old friend Ruth and from the evidence these meetings have been disarranged, disarrayed, disordered and downright "squishy" in the Sands motel no less.

Accompanied by frequent changes of underpants and an olfactory hunt to determine the source of the squish!

Leslie's insidious mother seems to be involved in pulling the wool over Gary's eyes while her simpleminded father is nescient but slightly leery of what's going on.

Failed stakeouts, incompetent PI's, backfiring VARs - this has it all.

Can't wait for what's next.


----------



## syhoybenden

Deguello said:


> I understand what your saying,I'm going to remain calm,I will be unarmed as uncomfortable as that makes me.I have a trusted friend who will watch out for me.


And carry a VAR with you for your protection if everything goes sideways.


----------



## Deguello

manfromlamancha said:


> So…. the plot thickens!
> 
> 60+ yr old Greg is dumbfounded at the indecorous comportment of his 60+ yr old wife Louise!
> 
> Louise has been spending time away with her old friend Rhonda and from the evidence these meetings have been disarranged, disarrayed, disordered and downright "squishy" in the Sands motel no less.
> 
> Accompanied by frequent changes of underpants and an olfactory hunt to determine the source of the squish!
> 
> Louise insidious mother seems to be involved in pulling the wool over Gregs eyes while her simpleminded father is nescient but slightly leery of what's going on. My wife was named after her uncle, a long story
> 
> Failed stakeouts, incompetent PI's, backfiring VARs - this has it all.
> 
> Can't wait for what's next.


Well Don Q.
I'm sorry if this doesn't follow a script,to make it more interesting for you, maybe I can include the One Armed Man,or maybe The Ghost of Christmas Past. Real life rarely makes sense,or follows a script,I'm,In the middle of this"story" as you so delicately put it.


----------



## Deguello

Wife was named for her aunt hence the spelling,and I knew that,long story.


----------



## Deguello

syhoybenden said:


> And carry a VAR with you for your protection if everything goes sideways.


Thank you,I did think of that,I'm covering my A** in more ways than that.


----------



## Deguello

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> I would hand her the papers and walk away.


I would still like to save my marriage if at all possible,it is a 45 Year relationship worth trying to save IMO.


----------



## Deguello

TheTruthHurts said:


> Hmmm or gangbang or animals or maybe she's a dominatrix and they are a duo and dudes come there to get their humiliation on. In fact, I like this one the best.


I'm not ruling out anything at this point,it will all having a bearing on the out come, I'm not stupid nor am I unreasonable. I married for life,and I remember my vows,everybody deserves a second chance.


----------



## AVR1962

Deguello said:


> We are both in our early 60's,our sex life until 2010 was actually pretty good,we averaged 1,2 per week.In 2010 it dropped to 1x per month MAYBE,at the same time she reconnected with female classmate.
> They began "having lunch" once or twice a month,I did not have an issue with this,right away. Lunch would last two to three hours.
> 
> When this woman would call,my wife would race outside or back to the bedroom until she was finished with the conversation,I thought this was "odd".
> When. I asked when we were going to have dinner,socialize,I was told in a hostile manner,"That was not going to happen,ever!" and she has been very defensive about it since then.I still have not met either one of these people.and it has been 5 years
> Am I not seeing something.any suggestions? Advice


In your 60's and still having sex once a month, even though it went from 1-2 times a week to once a month does mean that you should be suspicious. Husband and I are in our mid 50's and we don't have that much sex. Perhaps your wife just is not as interested in sex as you are? I talk to my lady friends alot....that is where I get more satisfaction emotionally as hubby is in his own world most of the time. This all might be innocent.

Let your wife know that you are interested in meeting her friend, going out to dinner together or having her over. 5 years? Really??


----------



## Deguello

I asked for that right away,I was told that would never happen..ever We would NOT socialize,


----------



## imtamnew

There is a Sherlock Holmes story with a black kid.


----------



## Deguello

I'm tam
I am missing your point?


----------



## imtamnew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Yellow_Face


----------



## Deguello

AVR1962 said:


> In your 60's and still having sex once a month, even though it went from 1-2 times a week to once a month does mean that you should be suspicious. Husband and I are in our mid 50's and we don't have that much sex. Perhaps your wife just is not as interested in sex as you are? I talk to my lady friends alot....that is where I get more satisfaction emotionally as hubby is in his own world most of the time. This all might be innocent.
> 
> Let your wife know that you are interested in meeting her friend, going out to dinner together or having her over. 5 years? Really??


AVR1962
Her response was "I don't need it as much as you do"it is a marital obligation for her.


----------



## tom67

Deguello said:


> I would still like to save my marriage if at all possible,it is a 45 Year relationship worth trying to save IMO.


I understand my parents have been married for 50 years I didn't mean to come off like a d!ck.
My m lasted 15 years so I'm a flunkie lol.


----------



## Deguello

Tom67,
No worries,it happens to everybody,I really do appreciate the input.
This whole cluster F**k is wearing on me.


----------



## Deguello

AVR1962 said:


> In your 60's and still having sex once a month, even though it went from 1-2 times a week to once a month does mean that you should be suspicious. Husband and I are in our mid 50's and we don't have that much sex. Perhaps your wife just is not as interested in sex as you are? I talk to my lady friends alot....that is where I get more satisfaction emotionally as hubby is in his own world most of the time. This all might be innocent.
> 
> Let your wife know that you are interested in meeting her friend, going out to dinner together or having her over. 5 years? Really??


Well 
if it was just one red flag,I might not be as concerned. But when there are many...and the way my brain is wired it drives me crazy.
PM me and I fil, you in if you want to know.


----------



## Lostinthought61

so when are you officially going to confront her?


----------



## Deguello

Well,
She does have control issues,but being a Dom s a stretch.


----------



## Deguello

I'll. Have to see how today plays out.


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> Well Don Q.
> I'm sorry if this doesn't follow a script,to make it more interesting for you, maybe I can include the One Armed Man,or maybe The Ghost of Christmas Past. Real life rarely makes sense,or follows a script,I'm,In the middle of this"story" as you so delicately put it.


I for one don't doubt the authenticity of the OP. But you have to admit if someone was going to make something up this would be a good one. Actually no it wouldn't. It's almost unbelievable. Deguello, I'd suggest you bring this script to a film studio but they would say it's too far fetched. I feel for you my friend. Can't make this stuff up.


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> I asked for that right away,I was told that would never happen..ever We would NOT socialize,


Just curious. What if you presented to your wife that you don't believe this friend is good for the marriage. What if you handed her divorce papers and said either you meet this friend or you file. What do you think her reaction would be?


----------



## syhoybenden

bfree said:


> I for one don't doubt the authenticity of the OP. But you have to admit if someone was going to make something up this would be a good one. Actually no it wouldn't. It's almost unbelievable. Deguello, I'd suggest you bring this script to a film studio but they would say it's too far fetched. I feel for you my friend. Can't make this stuff up.



What's so hard to believe?

His wife has been swayed by her bi tendencies which she kept hidden from her boyfriend/husband and appears to have started consorting with what may have been an old flame from her college days. Old boyfriend, old girlfriend ... what's the dif?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

syhoybenden said:


> What's so hard to believe?
> 
> His wife has been swayed by her bi tendencies which she kept hidden from her boyfriend/husband and appears to have started consorting with what may have been an old flame from her college days. Old boyfriend, old girlfriend ... what's the dif?


Nice summary and I agree.

Still, the problem is all of the complications you left out. I believe the OP, but I see why people have their doubts.


----------



## Deguello

bfree said:


> Just curious. What if you presented to your wife that you don't believe this friend is good for the marriage. What if you handed her divorce papers and said either you meet this friend or you file. What do you think her reaction would be?


I don’t think she would trade 42+ Years of a committed relationship for this OW who would probably not want to end her own 40+ year committed relationship, it just seems like a ****ty trade,and. Very counter productive. Way too many people being hurt needlessly for temporary gratification.


----------



## Deguello

Confrontation will have to wait,both she and the OW are in the hospital,will be for at least a week,got T-boned,some ass****.ran a stop sign.
The other BS and I will have time to talk I guess we ARE going to get to socialize at least a little while the two wives recuperate. I may not be on for a little while...We'll See.


----------



## imtamnew

Wish them a speedy recovery. As horrible as it sounds, this might be the breakthrough you needed.


----------



## Deguello

When the W reconnected with the OW,I asked when we were going to have them over for dinner,BBQ,whatever, I was told "thatwill not happen ever,she is my friend and I've not met her H either,she was almost Hostile,that is a RED FLAG To me. so is keeping her a secret.
Our sex life going gunny bag over night.was another red flag,the list goes on.


----------



## Deguello

Thank You So Much,I really appreciate that.


----------



## Chaparral

Had she told you she was going to see her this time?

Who's car was she in?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Deguello said:


> I don’t think she would trade 42+ Years of a committed relationship for this OW who would probably not want to end her own 40+ year committed relationship, it just seems like a ****ty trade,and. Very counter productive. Way too many people being hurt needlessly for temporary gratification.


You think very wrong.

As soon as OP starts being "dramatic" or "whiny" he will be told to leave (or she will up and leave).

He gets the sex because she cares and they are married and she thinks he deserves the commitment. When friend is more chatty and more girl talk, then suddenly she doesn't have the same amount in the "emotional bucket", nor does she seek the emotional feed and _conversation_time_ from him... thus she doesn't repay that contract with the same amount of attention or sex.

she is getting her emotional and interests satisfied elsewhere, he is now superfluous, and only around out of habit and convenient memories. He starts acting all dependent, that's over; he'd be a hassle and she'll spend more time with her friend chatting and laughing about women stuff that they understand and yak nothings about for hours and hours and hours. they get each other.

she doesn't need kids from him.
she doesn't need future house from him.
she doesn't need social show-off position from him.

basically what he knew as "marriage" is now finished until the other woman moves away or dies. what his wife is doing physically is the ILYBINILWY but she hasn't bothered to even tell him, she's just moved on. It'll take a breakup affair, or whining to push things to the reaction point.

It's textbook case.


----------



## MattMatt

I hope they are both going to be OK.

Where where they going when they had the crash?

Whose car was it? Either you or OW's husband needs to get in touch with a lawyer at this point.

You and he need to liaise with each other to make certain the other driver can't get away with anything.

At least that's what you tell your wives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Also this should be in the private section now. Please ask a moderator to move it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

spotthedeaddog said:


> You think very wrong.
> 
> As soon as OP starts being "dramatic" or "whiny" he will be told to leave (or she will up and leave).
> 
> He gets the sex because she cares and they are married and she thinks he deserves the commitment. When friend is more chatty and more girl talk, then suddenly she doesn't have the same amount in the "emotional bucket", nor does she seek the emotional feed and _conversation_time_ from him... thus she doesn't repay that contract with the same amount of attention or sex.
> 
> she is getting her emotional and interests satisfied elsewhere, he is now superfluous, and only around out of habit and convenient memories. He starts acting all dependent, that's over; he'd be a hassle and she'll spend more time with her friend chatting and laughing about women stuff that they understand and yak nothings about for hours and hours and hours. they get each other.
> 
> she doesn't need kids from him.
> she doesn't need future house from him.
> she doesn't need social show-off position from him.
> 
> basically what he knew as "marriage" is now finished until the other woman moves away or dies. what his wife is doing physically is the ILYBINILWY but she hasn't bothered to even tell him, she's just moved on. It'll take a breakup affair, or whining to push things to the reaction point.
> 
> It's textbook case.


I understand your thinking but shes been doung this for five years. For whatever reason shes hanging on to her marriage. bShe probably doesnt want to come out of the closet.


----------



## turnera

Let us know what the husband says when you tell him they've been having an affair.


----------



## Deguello

My W was driving her car,it was totaled,both are in ICU,the OWH and have talked.I have to go get personal stuff out of the car as one of the RO,s I told the OBS I would call him and that I would bring it up to the hospital. The other driver is in I C U also but in and I use this term cautiously serious Condition.He was in much worse condition. MIL won't even look at me,barely talks to me.
They will be out at until Monday. Dr.is confident they will recover


----------



## Tobyboy

Have you checked your wife's bank/credit account for "suspicious" transactions? 

There's always a paper/digital trail...if you can find it!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Deguello said:


> My W was driving her car,it was totaled,both are in ICU,the OWH and have talked.I have to go get personal stuff out of the car as one of the RO,s I told the OBS I would call him and that I would bring it up to the hospital. The other driver is in I C U also but in and I use this term cautiously serious Condition.He was in much worse condition. MIL won't even look at me,barely talks to me.
> They will be out at until Monday. Dr.is confident they will recover


What problem has your MIL got with you?


----------



## Nucking Futs

MattMatt said:


> What problem has your MIL got with you?


Could be guilt.


----------



## AVR1962

Deguello said:


> AVR1962
> Her response was "I don't need it as much as you do"it is a marital obligation for her.


Totally understand that. Her hormones are not like yours and this might not be a real important part of her life and after years of pleasing you but feeling put out to do so she might have decided to make herself happy doing her own things instead of trying to please you ina way that she was not getting much from.


----------



## imtamnew

Did your car have any surveillance stuff inside it?


----------



## Deguello

AVR1962 said:


> Totally understand that. Her hormones are not like yours and this might not be a real important part of her life and after years of pleasing you but feeling put out to do so she might have decided to make herself happy doing her own things instead of trying to please you ina way that she was not getting much from.


I did all I could to make sex fun for her she had NO fantasies whatsoever,she was unwilling to try new things. 
Not all her fault she got zero sex education from her Mom,I can't count the times I asked her to tell me what she wanted.So I guess this will be my fault if this CF goes to H$$l.


----------



## Deguello

im_tam said:


> Did your car have any surveillance stuff inside it?


GPS is toast,VAR did survive. I did manage to recover both purses,contents were very interesting,answers some questions.


----------



## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> Had she told you she was going to see her this time?
> 
> Who's car was she in?


As far as I can tell this was a spur of the moment occurrence,they were going to a new place for lunch,My W picked her up at her home.
So no I was not aware,a little surprised when I got the call that they had been in an accident.My S.I.L. asked me what happened,and what was wrong with her Mom,All I said was "you'll have to ask her" she is not speaking to me.
My W was driving her car.


----------



## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> I understand your thinking but shes been doung this for five years. For whatever reason shes hanging on to her marriage. bShe probably doesnt want to come out of the closet.


Spotthedeaddog,
I would request that you don't sugar coat things so much.
While I don't agree with your assessment of my situation,you are welcome to your opinion and I appreciate your in put


----------



## Chaparral

Are you saying this was a rendezvous that she didn't tell you about but it wasn't the one going the hotel?


----------



## turnera

Why isn't she speaking to you?


----------



## TAMAT

DeGuello,

You wrote, *I did all I could to make sex fun for her she had NO fantasies whatsoever,she was unwilling to try new things. *

When I hear something like that from my W I know but cannot prove that it's more like she has NO fantasies about ME. 

I have to believe that even if my W is not currently cheating on me the longer this asexual phase goes on the more probable it becomes that she will cheat. 

Tamat


----------



## Marc878

Deguello said:


> As far as I can tell this was a spur of the moment occurrence,they were going to a new place for lunch,My W picked her up at her home.
> So no I was not aware,a little surprised when I got the call that they had been in an accident.My S.I.L. asked me what happened,and what was wrong with her Mom,All I said was "you'll have to ask her" she is not speaking to me.
> My W was driving her car.


She's not speaking to you because she knows the cats gonna come out of the bag. :surprise:


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I'm so confused. What did you find in her purse? What do you now knoe? Did you talk with OW's H and if so what was said? Who's not taking to whom and why?


----------



## Deguello

That is affirmative this was not something I knew about,I'll have to wait for her to wake up,to ask her anything, Both h of them have some splaining to do.


----------



## Marc878

Perfect time to dig deep. Do a thorough phone examination, recover deleted texts, etc.

Good luck


----------



## Borntohang

So are you going to share what was in the purse?
You've been asking for advice, but leave that part out?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Is she unconscious? How badly us she hurt?


----------



## the guy

This accident just might save your marriage.

Sure I'm thinking out side the box here but hear me out.

What better way to get rid of an AP then to start having money issues....hell the OW just might end up suing you if you have crappy insurance.

Alls I'm say is the OW starts to build up medical bills and your insurance gives her a hard time in making a claim, she just might go after you and your wife.

Before you know it your wife is all into you and wants you and realizes what a b1tch the OW realy is when she goes after you guys for 1/4 million dollars.



Hey stranger things have happened.


On another note....according to the cheaters script.....this accident is all you fault any way and your old lady didn't even want the car in the 1st place. [even though she most likely begged you for the car when you bought it] LOL!


----------



## the guy

So I'm curious...who has title of the car and who carries the insurance?

Please tell me are covered?

On the car that is.

As far as the M goes...you are phucked....I don't think they have any insurance for that kind of thing!


----------



## Adelais

Deguello, now is the time to take a picture of the questionable contents of the purses and post it here, so we know your story is for real.


----------



## the guy

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Deguello, now is the time to take a picture of the questionable contents of the purses and post it here, so we know your story is for real.


Ya take some pics of a bunch of personal shyt your old lady has and post it on the web for all to see.:grin2:


----------



## tech-novelist

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Deguello, now is the time to take a picture of the questionable contents of the purses and post it here, so we know your story is for real.


That reminds me of a very non-PC saying... >


----------



## the guy

Hey....sorry about the accident.
I bet you took care of that car. You washed it, maintained it and did all you could to make sure it ran well and lasted.

It's sad that now it's gone...sitting in someone else's yard instead of yours, never to be driven again.

The good thing is just like most things in life, it can be replaced and more times then not you get a better car and everyone that rides in that new car likes it....all around it just rides better.

So morn your loss and expect to feel bad, but never let it keep you down for good, cuz now you have an oppertunity to get a better car. A car you like to drive and maybe one with not so many miles.

It's not what knocks us down that counts, it's how we get back up that matters!

So dust your @ss off and good luck finding a new car!

sincerely
the-guy
with the cheating wife


----------



## Adelais

And if this is for real, get your thread moved to private.


----------



## Deguello

the guy said:


> So I'm curious...who has title of the car and who carries the insurance?
> 
> Please tell me are covered?
> 
> On the car that is.
> 
> As far as the M goes...you are phucked....I don't think they have any insurance for that kind of thing!


Actually we own the car,we pay the Ins. and she actually made deal to purchase it.the asshat who ran the stop if he survives will probably get charged with DUII,either way his ins co. will be on the hook.,he ran the stop.


----------



## Deguello

Working on getting it moved to the privar section.


----------



## syhoybenden

Curious as to why you are so much less open to sharing pertinent information here at TAM than you are on your concurrent thread over at SI in General, Bulldog?
This forum here is, in my opinion, much more capable of helping you arrive at an acceptable resolution of your situation. Unfortunately you appear bound and determined to withhold relevant details from this forum which undermines our ability to help you arrive at said resolution.
So why play the old shell game with us?


----------



## Seppuku

technovelist said:


> That reminds me of a very non-PC saying... >


Pics or it didn't happen?


syhoybenden said:


> Curious as to why you are so much less open to sharing pertinent information here at TAM than you are on your concurrent thread over at SI in General, Bulldog?
> This forum here is, in my opinion, much more capable of helping you arrive at an acceptable resolution of your situation. Unfortunately you appear bound and determined to withhold relevant details from this forum which undermines our ability to help you arrive at said resolution.
> So why play the old shell game with us?


This is why I stopped responding on this thread - he says things about the contents of the purses being "telling" but doesn't just say what they were, even after repeated requests. Why say anything at all?

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


----------



## giddiot

To create suspense.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

It would be helpful to receive ALL the information.

Then we can really help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tech-novelist

Seppuku said:


> Pics or it didn't happen?


Yes, although I was thinking about another variation on that theme. >


----------



## Adelais

syhoybenden said:


> Curious as to why you are so much less open to sharing pertinent information here at TAM than you are on your concurrent thread over at SI in General, Bulldog?
> This forum here is, in my opinion, much more capable of helping you arrive at an acceptable resolution of your situation. Unfortunately you appear bound and determined to withhold relevant details from this forum which undermines our ability to help you arrive at said resolution.
> So why play the old shell game with us?


Could be that it is difficult to maintain two threads. 

If your story is real, I'm very sorry your wife was hurt. How is she doing? Do they believe her injuries will be able to heal completely? What did you find in those purses that tells you something about what has been going on?


----------



## Deguello

thats what I get for multi tasking,I'm a guy I should never attempt that. 
This is real. I've been very busy,not only do I have a WW in ICU, LE seems to think I know more than I really do, but from what the other BS.tells me they have been pestering him also, In-Laws are Distraught. MIL is avoiding me.,FIL wants to know what he can do. Just Pray,it is out of ofur hands at this point. There is a bright spot, this whole affair will see the light of day,and maybe save two marriages, OBS asked me about the two phones, and the under wear,let me just say it is VERY unusual for my wife to be in public,"commando" I said "it is not my place guess about this,"I know how I feel,you will have to draw your own conclusions, when you want to talk,I'm available,


----------



## Deguello

They are doing well as can be expected.I put ALL of them on the Church prayer list,they were still out last night.It is out of our control. The burner phones were used exclusivly calling each other.The other possibility,is that maybe they were going to a spa or to get a massage,I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt until I know for sure. Maybe I'm grasping at straws.


----------



## Adelais

Deguello said:


> They are doing well as can be expected.I put ALL of them on the Church prayer list,they were still out last night.It is out of our control. The burner phones were used exclusivly calling each other.The other possibility,is that maybe they were going to a spa or to get a massage,I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt until I know for sure. Maybe I'm grasping at straws.


IDK about other women, but since I don't go commando (I want to keep my clothes clean), I wouldn't take my underwear off until I was at the spa and getting ready for the massage...but I wouldn't get a nude massage anyway, whether by a male or a female.


----------



## Adelais

Deguello said:


> *There is a bright spot, this whole affair will see the light of day,and maybe save two marriages, *


This is good, but when your wife is no longer in ICU, don't let the fact that she is still physically hurt and recovering from the accident stop you from bringing it all out into the open. (I know, this sounds cruel, but we're talking about a wife who has been having an affair.)

Your MIL has some splainin' to do. If she refuses, she is toxic and you will have to make some serious decisions for yourself. Your wife can't cut her out of her life, as if she were merely a friend.

You'll need your FIL on your side to keep his wife and your wife in line when they are on his turf.

What did the texts on the phones say?


----------



## Deguello

There were a couple of times when one would.ask the other"do you think they know"?My WW would.say no,he is oblivious. The OW was talking about a Girls weekend or 3or4 days at the beach. This came up more than a dozen times. a lot of it was silly girl talk. I had fun at lunch. I did too can we. Meet we more often? Why don't we have lunch at my House and it goes on.....


----------



## turnera

So are you and the OW's husband going to confront them together?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Dude your posts make no sense because you are leaving out all the details. Was W commando in the accident? Was the OW? When did you find burner phones? Are you saying it is a lesbian affair or another guy. Why don't you copy and paste the content from the other site here wherever that is. And how badly is she hurt?


----------



## Marc878

It would probably be a good idea to do a deleted text recovery on the phones.

If you want the full story.


----------



## MattMatt

intheory said:


> Awful view of women and their friendships.


That sounds like lots of women I know. And lots of men I know, too!


----------



## wmn1

this has been a long and difficult thread to look at. The original poster is too patient IMO. 

His "I will save this marriage at all costs" attitude is setting himself up for a major fall, especially if it is worse than he realizes, like guys being involved.

He claims he's been married for 45 years but you can subtract 5 years from that because his wife hasn't provided him a marriage for 5 years.

He should have told MIL to fvck off and should be working to cut her out of his life.

I would be drawing up papers this week if I was him.


----------



## AVR1962

Deguello said:


> I did all I could to make sex fun for her she had NO fantasies whatsoever,she was unwilling to try new things.
> Not all her fault she got zero sex education from her Mom,I can't count the times I asked her to tell me what she wanted.So I guess this will be my fault if this CF goes to H$$l.


Are you freekin serious due??? Men just serious shock me with their viewpoint. Get REAL!!!!!! PlACE BLAME WHERE YOU WANT BUT WHAT YOU ARE LACKING IS BEING REAL! gEESH!!


----------



## Deguello

AVR1962,
Could you please clarify your last post,? I totally did not understand.


----------



## the guy

I'm glad you are cover as far as the insurance.

My next question....

Do you plan on taking care of her butt ....it sounds like she will be home healing for a while.

For what its worth, my old lady stabbed me in the back enough but I think...I know I would still hang around and help her heal....thats just me I have a soft spot for people that are all phucked up and are bed ridden.

I have been there my self and it's nice to have some one wipe your @ss when you can't move...actually I ahve been there a few times with rollover, beatings, and even gun shots....[rough youth]

My point is even though she phucked you over ...maybe you can help her heal then divorce her @ss.

IDK, but I'm just curious on were you stand with regards to how you are going to handle it when she is released.

I figure most guys in our situation would let the inlaws take care of their cheating daughters?


----------



## Deguello

Well no one forced you to follow it did they? We have been together 45+ years,married 42+years.
Everybody deserves a second chance. The other BS and I are working on a plan,to discuss it on this forum would be unwise at best.
MIL will have to live with what she's done, sucks to be her,but no one forced her to interfere. I know very little about the OW and her H,but I can assure you that that will change. when things begin to happen all will be revealed. this will have consequences they will be different for each woman.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

intheory said:


> Awful view of women and their friendships.


I give zero weight to "awful" or "lovely", I go for accuracy.


----------



## Deguello

I will help her get better,after that IDK,The in laws will get a chance in to help out,I'm not sure about the MIL,If she is here,I am not.what she did was pretty low,I expected better from her.Mothers will do weird things for their kids


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

> Originally Posted by Deguello View Post
> I did all I could to make sex fun for her she had NO fantasies whatsoever,she was unwilling to try new things.
> Not all her fault she got zero sex education from her Mom,I can't count the times I asked her to tell me what she wanted.So I guess this will be my fault if this CF goes to H$$l.





AVR1962 said:


> Are you freekin serious due??? Men just serious shock me with their viewpoint. Get REAL!!!!!! PlACE BLAME WHERE YOU WANT BUT WHAT YOU ARE LACKING IS BEING REAL! gEESH!!



what are you talking about.
his comment is a common experience. Many (under 30) women don't have fantasies, don't masturabte, won't discuss things, won't give an hint (read as don't actually know what they want). and their mothers frequently wouldn't tell them, because their mothers were just as clueless - they get the period "talk" (use these, don't hide them in your room, don't stuff dirty linen under your bed), and the sex talk (babies are a lot of hassle, don't play with boys over 10, see a doctor about birth control, the end) ... some its lots of giggling, music, who is future husband material but no sex talk (their mothers often didn't so they don't see why they should, if their friends aren't all into it)


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

wmn1 said:


> He should have told MIL to fvck off and should be working to cut her out of his life.


It's not just MIL. My father said one of the hardest things he had to do was tell his mother to do the above. She finally decided to come visit us for a prolonged stay (couple of weeks) but had to eventually tell her to leave/butt out.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Deguello said:


> thats what I get for multi tasking,I'm a guy I should never attempt that.


What are you talking about?

Men can multi-task. I can drink beer and ignore the missus simultaneously, and it gets easier with practice.


----------



## Deguello

Seppuku,
I found burner phones and clean underwear in their purses,
Burner phones had only text from each other,they talked about "getting together"more often,going away for a weekend,going to the beach house for a week or so.she invited my ww to lunch at her house when her H was out of town. I did not tell the OBS I went thru his W's purse.I don't. Understand the.underwear or the fact that they were both "commando".I've never claimed to understand my W but this is weird.
How Do I move this thread to the private section.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

AVR1962 said:


> Totally understand that. Her hormones are not like yours and this might not be a real important part of her life and after years of pleasing you but feeling put out to do so she might have decided to make herself happy doing her own things instead of trying to please you ina way that she was not getting much from.


Like we haven't spent years sacrificing and being nice so they are pleased - that's why the acid tests - we keep them happy then after all that time they say they have spent years on our kids (that we aren't allowed to discipline or make decision about without veto inspection from el Presidente) and keeping us happy. Where frequently we have been anything _but_ happy - slaving at job and career to keep her and her kids in house and manner what they have become accustomed, putting food for them to eat and complain about, helping around house so they have an ok place and roof over there heads (not to mention a significant amount of keeping up with the jones) or .. well you can wash clothes on a rock in a river, boil up a tub, or hand scrub those dishes... having nice stuff many guys can live happily without. Same as much of the housework - you do that to keep yourself happy, and to a level which pleases you. many guys are happy with much less (or they do it themselves if they want more)


----------



## Deguello

Both women are still unconscious the OW has multiple fractures,internal injuries,whiplash she took the primary impact,air bags deployed,serious but stable, My WW not as bad but still serious broken arm,whiplash,pretty banged up. Dr. says they could wake up at any time. The OBS and I are discussing our options at this point.


----------



## happyman64

So your WW and her BFF were commando.
In the car together heading for a rendezvous.

The had their underwear in their purses.

You have evidence of their get togethers and future plans without their husbands.

So why not this scenario:

They wakeup. Their pockets have their burner phones turned on, their underwear sticking out and divorce papers underneath waiting to be filled out.

You can only say one thing to your wives:

"Tell me all the truth right now or you can fill out the divorce papers when you feel better. Your nonsense almost got you and your BFF killed. Your games will most likely cost you our marriage.

Now start talking or I can hand you this pen to fill out the paperwork"

Then end it with this:

"Don't lie to me. Or lie about your mothers involvement. So what will it be?"

Hit her while she is weak.

HM


----------



## TheTruthHurts

How did you find out they were commando? Didn't the hospital staff treat them and put them in hospital gowns etc before your arrival?


----------



## Adelais

If they really were commando, I bet the EMT's and firemen who arrived at the scene and got them out of the car and in the ambulance were exchanging glances with each other and snickering. How embarrassing.

Those of us who are "older" remember our parents telling us to always wear clean underwear in case we get in an accident. I guess your wife and OW's mothers forgot to tell them to just wear underwear.

I'm not trying to be mean, I know your WW and OW are suffering, but sometimes people's choices come back to make them look very silly.


----------



## Deguello

I did not see any underwear in the plastic bags they put the clothing that they cut off in so I assumed they were not wearing any.


----------



## Chaparral

Deguello said:


> Both women are still unconscious the OW has multiple fractures,internal injuries,whiplash she took the primary impact,air bags deployed,serious but stable, My WW not as bad but still serious broken arm,whiplash,pretty banged up. Dr. says they could wake up at any time. The OBS and I are discussing our options at this point.


So sorry this total mess has landed on your plate.

Prayers for you and your wife.

This has to be excruciating under any circumstances. Its like trying to get through an earthquake an then a tornado hits at the same time.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I know you are probably in supportive mode now, but it's important to have a few firm plans ready for the appropriate time.

Your W has adeptly strung you along for years - possibly cheating right under your nose - all the while knowing you are suspicious and watching her.

This kind of dedicated deceit probably only occurs in a few situations - where W is done with you and resents you and doesn't care if she basically flaunts it in front of you... or on situations where W is so focused on the OW that she is willing to take extreme risks.

In either of these situations, you're W will do ANYTHING to avoid the truth and make any inconsistencies seem like you are being crazy.

So... what can you do? I think the only way past a solid defense and a defender who will basically do anything to keep the truth from coming out is to make it crystal clear there is no way out that doesn't involve the truth.

For that reason, I'd keep the panties and burner phone in a separate clear ziplock bag and wait for her to recover enough to talk. Then I would present them and say you are taking her to a polygraph test. Nothing more. Maybe say she might be in a better position if she talks on the way, but I would not prompt her further.

Someone with something to hide counts on being in control and being able to manipulate to maintain the lies. Saying nothing is the WORST thing you can do to a liar because they don't know what to say to manipulate you. Worse, they don't know what you know. If you watch the real life police shows, criminals will sprinkle enough truth in to sound plausible... without realizing they are confessing to being places and doing things.

Have the poly ready and the questions ready. You MUST let her know it is a requirement to staying married. And let her know if nothing bad is happening, you will drop it (may be true?).

Then find out. I doubt you will be able to get her to tell the truth otherwise,

And if there is nothing going on - hey it's possible - you will need to be able to get your life back in order.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you check for credit cards, receipts etc.?


----------



## Lostinthought61

do you think you shoudl clue in the other husband with what you have found out?


----------



## Deguello

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> If they really were commando, I bet the EMT's and firemen who arrived at the scene and got them out of the car and in the ambulance were exchanging glances with each other and snickering. How embarrassing.
> 
> Those of us who are "older" remember our parents telling us to always wear clean underwear in case we get in an accident. I guess your wife and OW's mother forgot to tell them to just wear underwear.
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean, I know your WW and OW are suffering, but sometimes people's choices come back to make them look very silly.


I've not thought about that,this thought won't occur to either one until later, I don't know how the OW will feel,however my WW will be mortified when she realizes that more than one stranger has seen in her totally naked. I guess sometimes we don't think of the consequences of what decisions we make. No one forced them to engage in such craziness,they are co-conspirators in this CF.


----------



## Deguello

Xenote said:


> do you think you shoudl clue in the other husband with what you have found out?


I'll have to find out "where he's at" in this disaster,the last time we talked he seemed under control,our daughter knows her mom was in an accident,to my knowledge she is oblivious to the circumstances,I'm not going to tell her everything at this point. She did want to take my Glock to her house,I promised I would lock it up for now and I would not do anything stupid.


----------



## wmn1

happyman64 said:


> So your WW and her BFF were commando.
> In the car together heading for a rendezvous.
> 
> The had their underwear in their purses.
> 
> You have evidence of their get togethers and future plans without their husbands.
> 
> So why not this scenario:
> 
> They wakeup. Their pockets have their burner phones turned on, their underwear sticking out and divorce papers underneath waiting to be filled out.
> 
> You can only say one thing to your wives:
> 
> "Tell me all the truth right now or you can fill out the divorce papers when you feel better. Your nonsense almost got you and your BFF killed. Your games will most likely cost you our marriage.
> 
> Now start talking or I can hand you this pen to fill out the paperwork"
> 
> Then end it with this:
> 
> "Don't lie to me. Or lie about your mothers involvement. So what will it be?"
> 
> Hit her while she is weak.
> 
> HM


agreed HM. Good strategy


----------



## wmn1

Deguello said:


> Well no one forced you to follow it did they? We have been together 45+ years,married 42+years.
> Everybody deserves a second chance. The other BS and I are working on a plan,to discuss it on this forum would be unwise at best.
> MIL will have to live with what she's done, sucks to be her,but no one forced her to interfere. I know very little about the OW and her H,but I can assure you that that will change. when things begin to happen all will be revealed. this will have consequences they will be different for each woman.


while I like this, not everybody deserves a second chance


----------



## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> Did you check for credit cards, receipts etc.?


I did that,nothing out of line on our joint card,one or two ATM transactions out of the joint acct.but I know that she had another CC,but I don’t have access to it at all.


----------



## wmn1

spotthedeaddog said:


> Like we haven't spent years sacrificing and being nice so they are pleased - that's why the acid tests - we keep them happy then after all that time they say they have spent years on our kids (that we aren't allowed to discipline or make decision about without veto inspection from el Presidente) and keeping us happy. Where frequently we have been anything _but_ happy - slaving at job and career to keep her and her kids in house and manner what they have become accustomed, putting food for them to eat and complain about, helping around house so they have an ok place and roof over there heads (not to mention a significant amount of keeping up with the jones) or .. well you can wash clothes on a rock in a river, boil up a tub, or hand scrub those dishes... having nice stuff many guys can live happily without. Same as much of the housework - you do that to keep yourself happy, and to a level which pleases you. many guys are happy with much less (or they do it themselves if they want more)


I feel this response is very appropriate given the post it was responding to. In the end, working guys whose wives wait until the kids are gone to cheat not only sacrificed before the kids were out of the house but also got screwed over when they left. The same thing is true for SAHM or working Moms who get screwed over when the affair happens against them in their 50s or so. 

I like the concept, Spot. It's true. People don't realize how much the other has sacrificed and they screw their sacrificing partner over. Purely disgusting


----------



## Lostinthought61

if i were you and after your wife wakes up, i would hold her burner phone and secret cc and panties until your ready to talk


----------



## imtamnew

Deguello said:


> She did want to take my Glock to her house,I promised I would lock it up for now and I would not do anything stupid.


Please let her take it.


----------



## Deguello

The thought crossed my mind,My W is not going to be"driving any where for a long while,neither Is the OW,That will put the kabosh on any EA,PA fun. because someone will be around 24/7 for a while,that will not delay any consequences, we will still confront when the time is right.but that will remove some of the pressure.
The other thought is tjhat NO ONE will be "getting any"for a while.:frown2:

I know that is not funny,but it is true


----------



## Deguello

She will pick up my weapon tomorrow,not to worry


----------



## Abc123wife

Deguello said:


> Both women are still unconscious the OW has multiple fractures,internal injuries,whiplash she took the primary impact,air bags deployed,serious but stable, My WW not as bad but still serious broken arm,whiplash,pretty banged up. Dr. says they could wake up at any time. The OBS and I are discussing our options at this point.


Do the Drs know why your wife is still unconscious after several days if her injuries are not as severe (broken arm, whiplash, banged up)? Even serious but stable is usually not unconscious for days.


----------



## Deguello

I asked the Dr. About,that because the OW is trying to wake up.she is responding to voices,but not awake yet.
he found something on his shoe that really held his attention,
My W. had a bump the size of a golf ball on the back of her head,they found it when they did another CT scan,
The InLaws and our daughter are at the hospital.


----------



## Deguello

I. Have a question?
Do I seem like I have "mood swings" the reason I ask is I re-read an earlier post, and I commented that no matter which Version of cheating you are doing it is still cheating and WRONG,
If MyWW want to stay married,she. Must:
1.Break it off
2. .No contact. At all.
3. Mc /ic are required and then sex therapy.
Does this seem brutal to anyone?
Please let me know


----------



## the guy

It's not brutal enough IMHO.

I'm sure there are a few toxic friends that are actual enemies of the marriage and that has to be addressed.

What about transparentcy.......she could loose all her privacy if she really has the remorse to stay married to you.


And then there is bending her over your knee and giving her a good spanking.


At the end of the day your old lady has to have a huge dergree of submission to make up for the crap she put you through.


----------



## the guy

I mean those 3 things you mentionare all a must.....but you gotta think about what is it going to take to rebuild the trust that she phucked up.

Alls I'm say is if she can be a good girl for daddy then she might be worth keeping around.....and ya I'm wired different then must, but after the last 6 yrs of R I wouldn't have it any other way!


----------



## Deguello

Update....
Both WW's are awake;still hurting and on PK.so kind of groggy.The Dr. suggested we avoid any kind of stress,it won't do anyone any good at this point.OBS and I will hold off with confrontation for now, I figure that the "light" will come on when they ask for their purses,we are discussing whether or not to leave the phones and underwear in them so that they think we don't know anything.seem like a good tactical move at this point.input please.


----------



## Deguello

the guy said:


> It's not brutal enough IMHO.
> 
> I'm sure there are a few toxic friends that are actual enemies of the marriage and that has to be addressed.
> 
> What about transparentcy.......she could loose all her privacy if she really has the remorse to stay married to you.
> 
> 
> And then there is bending her over your knee and giving her a good spanking.
> 
> 
> At the end of the day your old lady has to have a huge dergree of submission to make up for the crap she put you through.


The guy,
I will add you suggestions, to the requirements thanks.


----------



## giddiot

Deguello said:


> Update....
> Both WW's are awake;still hurting and on PK.so kind of groggy.The Dr. suggested we avoid any kind of stress,it won't do anyone any good at this point.OBS and I will hold off with confrontation for now, I figure that the "light" will come on when they ask for their purses,we are discussing whether or not to leave the phones and underwear in them so that they think we don't know anything.seem like a good tactical move at this point.input please.


You should give them their purse and keep the phone and panties in a ziplock bag, then swing it in the air and say are you looking for these? Have you retrieved the deleted messages off the phones yet?

I tell you what, you better be carrying a VAR with you all the time and when you confront. She might just get angry, choose the other woman and get a restraining order on you. This went on for so long to me sounds like she has made her choice and is using you for cake eating.


----------



## Lostinthought61

i am with giddiot...some things you need to let register all at once and the important thing is look her in the eye and say nothing...let her speak first....let her ponder in her mind everything first....by staying silent you hold the power the first one who speak loses. 
PS i am glad that they are awake and i hope that there is no residual effects from the accident.


----------



## the guy

Deguello said:


> Update....
> we are discussing whether or not to leave the phones and underwear in them so that they think we don't know anything.seem like a good tactical move at this point.input please.


Switch them around....put your old lady's phone and panties in OW purse and put OW's phone and undies in your wife's purse.


On a side note I found it interesting the doctor had to remind you about the stress...does the Doc. know about the shady business at hand?


----------



## Deguello

the guy said:


> Switch them around....put your old lady's phone and panties in OW purse and put OW's phone and undies in your wife's purse.
> 
> 
> On a side note I found it interesting the doctor had to remind you about the stress...does the Doc. know about the shady business at hand?


I like switching the phones and underwear. The Dr. reminding us was not really needed
I figured that any additional stress was not a good thing.
If the Dr. Knows,I did not tell him,it is none of his business. I see no reason he needs to know.


----------



## Chaparral

I think you should remove the items and let them stew.

i would also keep them apart so they cant cook up a story together.


----------



## turnera

Chaparral said:


> I think you should remove the items and let them stew.
> 
> i would also keep them apart so they cant cook up a story together.


Absolutely. On both counts.

My DD25 has said that the harshest punishments she ever got from us was the times we sent her to her room for the night and told her that her dad and I would be discussing her punishment that night, and would let her know in the morning. Those nights were agonizing.


----------



## Thor

First, I hope both women make a quick and full recovery.

Second, when is enough enough? You know what was going on between them to the point there was some sort of affair. At the very least this was an EA with some PA elements of some sort. What does it take before you're ready to call it quits and divorce her? Do you need pictures? Is there some line in the sand which you need to know if she crossed?

I think a lot of BSs get too caught up in trying to figure out exactly what happened, and they lose sight of the bigger picture that there was an EA/PA. Does it matter how it started, how much they did, how many times they did it?


----------



## JohnA

Why is your daughter asking for the gun ? It would seem she must know, ot thinks she knows something. What and which is it ? 

Keep the phones, say nothing. Work on a plan for divorce. You might not want to, but life may make it happen. She and OW may as a result of a near death accident want to be together fill time. Do not leave yourself in a position of no options.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

Deguello said:


> I did not see any underwear in the plastic bags they put the clothing that they cut off in so I assumed they were not wearing any.



Don't assume they were commando. When I was an EMT, I cut clothing off trauma victims. To preserve their dignity, we kept on underwear and bras if we could help it. Obviously if there was necessity, we would cut them off. So, the majority of the time, the undergarments were removed at the hospital and often tossed.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Yes said:


> Deguello said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not see any underwear in the plastic bags they put the clothing that they cut off in so I assumed they were not wearing any.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't assume they were commando. When I was an EMT, I cut clothing off trauma victims. To preserve their dignity, we kept on underwear and bras if we could help it. Obviously if there was necessity, we would cut them off. So, the majority of the time, the undergarments were removed at the hospital and often tossed.
Click to expand...

Good point. But about the burner phones,..


----------



## Deguello

I guess all that matters is that it gets to the "being over" part.the suggested that we wait for a few day,but do continue to ask questions about what happened where they we going. I'm getting tired of doing this.


----------



## Deguello

Our daughter does know something,she has not Shared it with me,but she was concerned so I let her.


----------



## JohnA

So she thinks you might use it on yourself or you wife. That is very unsettling. 

Try to get her to open up. Start by asking her why she thinks you might usebte gun yourself. Don't ask about the wife. At this point if it is she will just shut down. By sure to explore the why and what she thinks you should do about it besides just give her the gun. 

As to the wife, 180 her but be concerned, helpful, dipomatic and polite. Drop the subject of the OW with her but keep digging. 
@weightlifter can give you great ideas on how to get info from the bunner phone. He can also put you in touch with other posters here that might be able to help.


----------



## Chaparral

Be sure and check her email. Especially drafts. Cheaters are using the same email acct and only using drafts. That way no emails are actually sent.


Can you view the history qnd texts in the burners? How far back do they go? What have you learned from them?


----------



## Divinely Favored

Deguello said:


> Our daughter does know something,she has not Shared it with me,but she was concerned so I let her.


I would be asking her "Why do you want my Glock? Whats going on? " When she said nothing....Then I will be keeping my pistol close to me. 

Wonder if she will tell you.


----------



## bfree

Divinely Favored said:


> I would be asking her "Why do you want my Glock? Whats going on? " When she said nothing....Then I will be keeping my pistol close to me.
> 
> Wonder if she will tell you.


Wow, I'd be wondering what she knows if she's insisting on taking his gun. Sounds like she fears your reaction. Hate to say this but it must be a hell of a lot more than lunch dates, holding hands and a massage or two.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bfree said:


> Wow, I'd be wondering what she knows if she's insisting on taking his gun. Sounds like she fears your reaction. Hate to say this but it must be a hell of a lot more than lunch dates, holding hands and a massage or two.


Wow. Deguello, is there anyone that claims to love you that has your back? Clearly your daughter doesn't since she's complicit in your wifes cover up.


----------



## Deguello

bfree said:


> Wow, I'd be wondering what she knows if she's insisting on taking his gun. Sounds like she fears your reaction. Hate to say this but it must be a hell of a lot more than lunch dates, holding hands and a massage or two.


I am betting it some kind of mother/daughter thing,since suicide is not even an issue with me,and both women know that she is coming down today to get my Glock,that won't happen .I just had a bad feeling about it. My weapon stays with me.
We'll talk about honestly,and integrity,and loyalty. She knows more than she is letting on.
I'll give her every opportunity to come clean without talking about mom. The OBS and I decided play dumb about the phone and undies,they have not asked about their purses ...yet! The wrecking yard called and asked what should they do about the two small bags in the trunk? I'm going to go retrieve them on Monday morning,I can hardly wait to search thru them. I'm having trouble with the burner phones,I'll have to talk to someone smarter than I am about it.


----------



## Deguello

JohnA said:


> Why is your daughter asking for the gun ? It would seem she must know, ot thinks she knows something. What and which is it ?
> 
> Keep the phones, say nothing. Work on a plan for divorce. You might not want to, but life may make it happen. She and OW may as a result of a near death accident want to be together fill time. Do not leave yourself in a position of no options.


The Lawyer called to tell me the papers are in his safe,anytime I need them.I really hope I don't need them, the evidence is mounting,
I know what the correct response is,and both of them do also. 
We are not just going to give them their purses,they will have to ask for them The OBS and I decided to play "dumb"


----------



## dash74

Deguello said:


> The wrecking yard called and asked what should they do about the two small bags in the trunk? I'm going to go retrieve them on Monday morning,I can hardly wait to search thru them. I'm having trouble with the burner phones,I'll have to talk to someone smarter than I am about it.



You may want to go get the bags sooner if you think you daughter and mil are in 
on it


Get with Guss on the phones shoot him a pm


----------



## turnera

Does your wife have any reasons to be unhappy with you? Anger? Stonewalling? Control? I only ask because it's odd for a daughter to be helping her mom cheat unless they both agree she's better off with someone else.


----------



## MattMatt

Yes said:


> Don't assume they were commando. When I was an EMT, I cut clothing off trauma victims. To preserve their dignity, we kept on underwear and bras if we could help it. Obviously if there was necessity, we would cut them off. So, the majority of the time, the undergarments were removed at the hospital and often tossed.


If they both had involuntary bowel movements they would have disposed of their panties.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

turnera said:


> Does your wife have any reasons to be unhappy with you? Anger? Stonewalling? Control? I only ask because it's odd for a daughter to be helping her mom cheat unless they both agree she's better off with someone else.


Or mother had lied to daughter about what's going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adelais

So they had no underwear on, but they each had a pair in their purses? Even if they had been wearing underwear and they were cut off and disposed of, why did they both have an extra pair in their purses?

Do not give your gun to your daughter. You might not get it back. If you want to get it out of the house, put it in a safety deposit box, with you having the key.


----------



## Thor

When things get complicated and contentious it is always a good idea to get all the guns and other weapons out of the home. Bayonets, hunting knives, pocket knives, kubotons, etc. This can protect you from false charges or perhaps worse. Having some form of VAR running during potentially contentious contact is also a smart precaution.

If you give the gun to your daughter, deactivate it. e.g. remove the barrel and put the barrel in your safe. This way the weapon is inert and unusable by anybody. You don't want a child or other undesirable person to get hold of your gun and do something terrible.

Another option is to put it in a safe deposit box at your bank. Even just the frame locked away is a good precaution, it doesn't have to be the entire weapon if space is an issue.


----------



## Deguello

She does have control issues,but I don't think they are that far out of control.I have no idea wgbs she has told our daughter


----------



## Deguello

MattMatt said:


> If they both had involuntary bowel movements they would have disposed of their panties.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What are the odds of two women having an involuntary BM at the same time?I


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they both had involuntary bowel movements they would have disposed of their panties.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> What are the odds of two women having an involuntary BM at the same time?I
Click to expand...

How bad was the accident? I have no idea but if they were unconscious anything could happen. IDK I'd ask


----------



## Deguello

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> So they had no underwear on, but they each had a pair in their purses? Even if they had been wearing underwear and they were cut off and disposed of, why did they both have an extra pair in their purses?
> 
> Do not give your gun to your daughter. You might not get it back. If you want to get it out of the house, put it in a safety deposit box, with you having the key.


I don’t understand the need to have extra bra and panties in your purse.
That just feels like premeditation to me. However,I'm not going to burn a lot of time on it.
I did retrieve the house key that our daughter had.
I don't remember if the in laws have one.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> IMFarAboveRubies said:
> 
> 
> 
> So they had no underwear on, but they each had a pair in their purses? Even if they had been wearing underwear and they were cut off and disposed of, why did they both have an extra pair in their purses?
> 
> Do not give your gun to your daughter. You might not get it back. If you want to get it out of the house, put it in a safety deposit box, with you having the key.
> 
> 
> 
> I don?t understand the need to have extra bra and panties in your purse.
> That just feels like premeditation to me. However,I'm not going to burn a lot of time on it.
> I did retrieve the house key that our daughter had.
> I don't remember if the in laws have one.
Click to expand...

Why? Was you daughter upset?


----------



## MattMatt

Deguello said:


> What are the odds of two women having an involuntary BM at the same time?I


If they were both rendered unconscious or both badly scared during the crash I wouldn't bet on it *not* happening. 

I always like to add other points of view so that these can be examined and perhaps ruled out.


----------



## Nucking Futs

TheTruthHurts said:


> Why? Was you daughter upset?


Did you get any information or impressions about what your daughter knows?


----------



## turnera

Mothers, I don't care about. We've had way too many cases here of mothers helping their children cheat. 

It's when the CHILD helps the mother cheat that concerns me. As much as my H hurts our daughter and me in multiple ways, she still wants the best for him. To be beyond that...it reeks of something off kilter.


----------



## Deguello

intheory said:


> ^^^^^ Couldn't agree more.


I went to visit the WW,The Dr. asked me how I felt about moving the two women into the same room.All I said was I don’t think it's a good Idea" who asked? The OW asked according to the Dr. I said there are some issues that are not known to everyone,I need to speak to the H. Stall her as long as you can,I will get back to you


----------



## tech-novelist

Deguello said:


> I went to visit the WW,The Dr. asked me how I felt about moving the two women into the same room.All I said was I don’t think it's a good Idea" who asked? The OW asked according to the Dr. I said there are some issues that are not known to everyone,I need to speak to the H. Stall her as long as you can,I will get back to you


I would say "Sure, as long as they are being recorded".

Well, I wouldn't actually say that, but I would want to.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Divinely Favored said:


> I would be asking her "Why do you want my Glock? Whats going on? " When she said nothing....Then I will be keeping my pistol close to me.
> 
> Wonder if she will tell you.


One does not part with ones weapon.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Nucking Futs said:


> Did you get any information or impressions about what your daughter knows?


Hate to quote myself but can you answer this?


----------



## JohnA

I think @Thor suggestion is great on post 488. It is a classic example of being reasonable and yet living aware. I've posted on other threads about leaving aware, but not in fear. A strong component of this is clearly defined boundaries that are followed as a matter of habit. 

Allowing a personal weapon out of your direct control is insane. The most important element of gun ownership, even before buying and knowing how to use it, is knowing what a gun can do if misused and accepting the responsible to make sure your's never is. 

My suggestion is call your D, tell her you will agree to her request and to stop by and pick it up. When she does first give her it to her without the barrel if you can, but disarmed. Then ask ask her to sit and explain why she asked. Often giving first is necessary to put the other person at ease. IF she try's to evade the question simply say, "If you won't it leaves the question in my mind what you think is so bad that you are afraid I will misuse it". 

Then drop the question if she refuses to answers or provides a vague answer. In either case you have your answer. "silence at times is the loudest answer. At this time you will know the what. The how, why, details will come out. Actually do you really need them? Just call the lawyer and have served at the hospital. Have her stuff boxed up and tell her you have arranged to ave delivered to OW house. 

When the shyt hits the fan your only answer is "when my wife, MIL, and daughter can't look me in the eye and share the truth with me honestly and calmly their is nothing left but for everyone to move on".


----------



## turnera

Deguello said:


> I went to visit the WW,The Dr. asked me how I felt about moving the two women into the same room.All I said was I don’t think it's a good Idea" who asked? The OW asked according to the Dr. I said there are some issues that are not known to everyone,I need to speak to the H. Stall her as long as you can,I will get back to you


Surely you have told the doctor by now that they were CHEATING on the two of you when they had the accident? And that you and the other husband have to deal with the repercussions of that and that, therefore, them being in the same room is absolutely out of the question? 

Right?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

I hear sodium pentathol makes a great painkiller...

----
"Do You Want to Be Happy 
OR
Do You Want To Be Right?"

^^ You realise that is one of life's nasty joke right? It was a philosophical conundrum I had when I was younger.
I said "I'd rather be happy" Which apparently is the "red pill answer"... because it's right.

For those that think it's more important to be factual and correct and proper... that's the blue pill...and that's the universes little joke because they keep going on being wrong but at least they are happy in their compliance, they wake up the next morning like nothing happens.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

spotthedeaddog said:


> what are you talking about.
> his comment is a common experience. Many (under 30) women don't have fantasies, don't masturabte, won't discuss things, won't give an hint (read as don't actually know what they want).


Just going to add a provisio on that. 
It has changed in the last 15-20 years, now many Western girls get their information from other girls, and womens' magazines, and pr0n is much easier to access (and privately) on teh InterWebz. Also much impact from sexualised young women's tv and magazines that simply had no financial market 30-50 years ago. So there's a real stratification going on. Many school girls are now well aware of others in school making money by "going to parties in neighbouring towns" and other goings on, like who the class "out lesbian(s)" are


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Deguello said:


> Actually we own the car,we pay the Ins. and she actually made deal to purchase it.the asshat who ran the stop if he survives will probably get charged with DUII,either way his ins co. will be on the hook.,he ran the stop.


If he's drunk then his insurance company is off the hook.

You'll probably have to claim on your insurance, although usually you can get the insurance company to agree to not remove any no claims bonus (as you weren't at fault).


----------



## JohnA

Hi @spotthedeaddog, I want both pills in my life if it is important to me. I remember talking once about "do the ends justify the means or do the means justify the ends". One guy had an amazing answer "why not both" ? Someone replied what if you can't have both? His answer "try harder". Now that is being a hard ass.


----------



## JohnA

Degulleo, my last post does apply directly to you. If you can't have both move on, file. Don't yell, don't scream, don't demean, don't rant. Just move on. This site often talks about being "alpha" a lot. To do as I suggest is pure alpha. No emotion just result. 

You sounded the bugle, you received a lot advise, so what is the action plan?


----------



## Deguello

JohnA said:


> Degulleo, my last post does apply directly to you. If you can't have both move on, file. Don't yell, don't scream, don't demean, don't rant. Just move on. This site often talks about being "alpha" a lot. To do as I suggest is pure alpha. No emotion just result.
> 
> You sounded the bugle, you received a lot advise, so what is the action plan?


The OBS and I have decided we are both tired of this,We confront this afternoon,we both have papers drawn up, we have their bags from the trunk,their purses with burner phones and extra underwear. It will go something like this:"WW,here is your overnite bags from the car,here is your purse,with the contents intact,we have "dumped" the phones,we know what you've been up to.You have1 hour to decide whether to stay married and fulfill your vows. Or finish filling out these Divorce papers. It is your choice,if you decide to stay,
There will No Contact contracts,Individual counseling,marriage counseling,and complete transparency. Access to phones,computers in mail FB everything. Are there any questions,if not,you have 1 hour from now,I'll be back,in one hour.

Does this look okay let me know.


----------



## JohnA

I am impressed you have the divorce papers ready. Actually it is amazing both husbands have papers ready. 

What blanks have you filled in for each other?

If she does want to reconcile have you developed a plan for that as well ? 

The issue with the daughter needs resolution. What is her martial status? Do you have other children ? 

Try to have a discussion before confronting.


----------



## Catherine602

It may be wise not to lay too much out at this point. What do you think about exposing now and giving your WW the choice to stay married or not. Impose the requirements that are necessary to demonstrate her decision now - they cannot stay in the same room or contact each other. If she does not agree then the marriage is over. The rest can be revealed when she is released from the hospital. 

It's a simple choice, yes or no. If you tell her too much, she has room to prevaricate and delay. What do you think?


----------



## Chaparral

I would give her more time to stew.

I would also start a conversation and lead up to it. Ask her questions about what she was doing etc. Then drop the dime on her.


----------



## Borntohang

What did you find on the phones? We all have our suspicions, but what exactly did you find out?
Sorry if I missed it, but what did your daughter say?


----------



## Deguello

JohnA said:


> I am impressed you have the divorce papers ready. Actually it is amazing both husbands have papers ready.
> 
> What blanks have you filled in for each other?
> 
> If she does want to reconcile have you developed a plan for that as well ?
> 
> The issue with the daughter needs resolution. What is her martial status? Do you have other children ?
> 
> Try to have a discussion before confronting.


Lots of possible getaway ideas,some possible, some not even feasible. some was in some kind of"short hand",I have a friend who was in crypto,is going to try and figure it out. A LOT of girl talk,some was sort of erotic,not explicit,just sensual. Some cryptic references to MS/H.S.sleep overs,I think this goes back a lot farther than I am ever thought.
Our daughter did tell me that she promised her mom not to tell anyone,but if anything happened she was to try to get my weapon out of my possession. That will not happen is what I told her. NO one is in any danger from me,but there will be consequences for this deception. I told her I have a really good Idea what your mother is up to,You go ahead and keep your promise to your Mom,But I will remember the betrayal,from your Mom,You and your Grandmother,You need to leave...Now.,I need the housekey back,If I can't. Trust you,you don't need a key to my house.


----------



## Deguello

Deguello said:


> Lots of possible getaway ideas,some possible, some not even feasible. some was in some kind of"short hand",I have a friend who was in crypto,is going to try and figure it out. A LOT of girl talk,some was sort of erotic,not explicit,just sensual. Some cryptic references to MS/H.S.sleep overs,I think this goes back a lot farther than I ever thought.
> DD is Divorced and an OC.
> Our daughter did tell me that she promised her mom not to tell anyone,but if anything happened she was to try to get my weapon out of my possession. That will not happen is what I told her. NO one is in any danger from me,but there will be consequences for this deception. I told her I have a really good Idea what your mother is up to,You go ahead and keep your promise to your Mom,But I will remember the betrayal,from your Mom,You and your Grandmother,You need to leave...Now.,I need the housekey back,If I can't. Trust you,you don't need a key to my house.


----------



## imtamnew

I am very sorry for where you find yourself.
Trust in God and yourself.

There is a line in an Indian religious text.
The Gita:
This too shall pass.

Remember that no matter how dark the time is..... This is also not permanent and you will get thru.

Talk to a trusted friend and your pastor.


----------



## Deguello

When we got the Hospital,OBS went to see his W and I went to see my WW,she was in lots of pain,almost not coherent,she started to cry because she thought the OW had died. no one had told her she survived she apologized for wrecking the car,and killing The OW,I told her. It was not her fault,R was hurting but alive. There was no way I was going to inflict more pain on her. I am angry,hurt,but she is still my wife,I need to hear her side,even though I have a good idea what the hell was going on.she is not getting off,it will just happen at a different time. You may criticize me but I'm here,it was my call.


----------



## Marc878

I would tell the MIL she is no longer welcome in my home. Do you think your daughter knew what's going on? 

This deception is going to be hard to swallow.

Sorry for you man


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sucks. Daughter dragged into which is completely reprehensible if the WW


----------



## Catherine602

Let the rest of the family and your daughter off the hook for now too.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> When we got the Hospital,OBS went to see his W and I went to see my WW,she was in lots of pain,almost not coherent,she started to cry because she thought the OW had died. no one had told her she survived she apologized for wrecking the car,and killing The OW,I told her. It was not her fault,R was hurting but alive. There was no way I was going to inflict more pain on her. I am angry,hurt,but she is still my wife,I need to hear her side,even though I have a good idea what the hell was going on.she is not getting off,it will just happen at a different time. You may criticize me but I'm here,it was my call.


No one will criticize you for having compassion.

And I agree - let DD off the hook - but be clear that she is your daughter and you are appalled that your WW would drag her into her infidelity. Tell her you love her and she will always be your daughter. But also tell her she must never let herself be a wedge in someone else's marriage / particularly her parents. It's ok for her to say NO.


----------



## Deguello

I visit the hospital every day,to change the VAR,Speak to the Dr.Talk to the WW when she is lucid,she is still in a lot of.pain.yesterday She seemed semi lucid so I asked where they were going, She mumbled "to the summer house" for the weekend.this was a complete surprise to me.
she was going to bail out on her responsibilities and not tell me a thing about where she was going to be.
the OBS was told that his WW was going by herself for "Solitude and Meditation" Doesn't that mean "by yourself"


----------



## Chaparral

So she had packed up and left for a weekend and you had no idea what she was doing , who she would be with, or where?

Good thing you have the papers ready.


----------



## Deguello

I knew that the OW and her BH had a "summer house" at the beach,the BH knew that his WW was going,he was under the impression that it was for"Meditation And Solitude"he thought he was going to be "out of town" So it was no big deal. It looks like it was going to be NOT Meditation or Solitude,this may change the plan and the "Rules of Engagement.":surprise:


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> I knew that the OW and her BH had a "summer house" at the beach,the BH knew that his WW was going,he was under the impression that it was for"Meditation And Solitude"he thought he was going to be "out of town" So it was no big deal. It looks like it was going to be NOT Meditation or Solitude,this may change the plan and the "Rules of Engagement.":surprise:


I think you missed the point there. Your wife was leaving for the weekend without telling you. What were you supposed to think that night when she didn't come home at all? Did she expect you to not notice? 

Or was it more than a weekend? Did your daughter know her mother was leaving you for good and that's why she was supposed to get your gun?


----------



## Deguello

Nucking Futs
If my daughter even had inkling that she was leaving me for good,she would blow the whistle. That I'm sure of. As far as going away w/o telling me,I'm speculating here there would have been"car trouble"of some sort,something believable,and they would stay overnight conveniently at the summer house,I would have made some arrangements and been on my way to the summer house.
This is all speculation until one of them( WW) comes clean.
The gun issue is a nonstarter she was not going to get my weapon.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

K so I am kind of dumb and your communication style of brief and cryptic comments ain't helping me get smarter.

I do believe you were right all along BTW...

So help me synthesize all that you now know...

For 5 (?) years W had been moving away from you: 

decreasing sex until it is infrequent and starfish "get you off" sex

Hiding her body from you

Buying sexy underware that she doesn't show you

Reconnected with an "old friend" from high school who is a woman

Keeps you away from her OW and explicitly tells you that you will never meet her and never have a friendship or relationship with her.

Goes out to "lunch" and other things with the OW - doesn't hide it - does it out in the open but won't let you attend

Mysteriously has different underware at night based on what you've seen in the hamper

Has a burner phone with texts talking about getting together with the OW

Planned at weekend away while lying to you and the OW lied to her H

You have been together 40 years and never suspected any same sex tendencies

W never indicated she wants to leave, separate or divorce, indicating she likes your money, security, guise or cover if she is lesbian or bisexual, and you would hope she loves you too but the signs are no longer there

She had actively been gas lighting you and acting like this is your imagination.

You have been kept in the dark and basically tortured for 5 years thinking something is going on, asking, spying, etc

W know you have been in angst but has done nothing to make you feel better or address the anxiety and pain.

-------------
Had the above all been verified at this point?

Did OBS talk about whether his W is bisexual, lesbian or did he have any clue about this?

Did OBS Know of the friendship at least?

Finally what are the remaining things you want to know before you choose D, R, rug sweep, etc.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> Nucking Futs
> If my daughter even had inkling that she was leaving me for good,she would blow the whistle. That I'm sure of. As far as going away w/o telling me,I'm speculating here there would have been"car trouble"of some sort,something believable,and they would stay overnight conveniently at the summer house,I would have made some arrangements and been on my way to the summer house.
> This is all speculation until one of them( WW) comes clean.
> The gun issue is a nonstarter she was not going to get my weapon.


No, I know the gun is a non issue. I just think that giving your daughter a pass is either evidence of a cranial-rectal inversion or you know something you're not telling us. Since this is an anonymous forum and we're all trying to help you I don't know why you would hide anything from us. 

What daughter is going to just accept that she needs to disarm her father without knowing why?




TheTruthHurts said:


> K so I am kind of dumb and your communication style of brief and cryptic comments ain't helping me get smarter.


Yeah, me too. You might find it less annoying to just fill us in on what you know so we don't waste our and your time with irrelevant advice and questions.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Since you have a var in the hospital room I think you and OBS should have them put together. That var will likely have your answer within 24 hrs.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Nucking Futs said:


> Since you have a var in the hospital room I think you and OBS should have them put together. That var will likely have your answer within 24 hrs.


If you do double or triple the VAR firepower in the event of failure or discovery. Cause once their stories are coordinated you're screwed. It took a traffic accident to penetrate the deceit


----------



## Deguello

Nuckingfuts,
I'm sorry I'm "cryptic"
I have not seen any sexy underwear in the laundry,or on her body,(yes,I do laundry)I don't recall that statement.
The different panties,is a mystery,the only DNA that was found was her DNA,its a mystery.
She really didn't lie about the weekend getaway,she just didn't tell me she was going somewhere.The only thing that screwed that up was being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have never seen any Bisexual or Lesbian tendencies,but I would not know them if I saw them.
The OBS does know about their friendship,he has not mentioned bisexual or lesbian behavior.
I want this to be out in the OPEN, I want to know if this is a continuation of something that started decades ago in school.
We specifically did not want them in the same room,The Dr.s are aware of the situation,and agree with us so they will NOT be "roomies"


----------



## Deguello

So what are indicators of Bisexual behavior and/or Lesbian tendencies,?
DD has borrowed money from us, that might be what WW is holding over her head.
I don't understand either one of them(what guy does) DD is not getting a "pass".


----------



## TheTruthHurts

On the burner phones was there any talk of sex or intimacy? That would be a sign.

Role playing or dirty talk between you and W - for example talking about a three way - could in hindsight be a sign.

Comments and looks or attention at women could be a sign.

Talking about same sex couples or having same sex couples as friends could be a sign.

Stories of college / younger days sexual play involving other girls, roommates, etc.

Close relations with other women outside the context of your marriage and / or their marriage could be a sign.

These could also be normal behaviors too. If I had such suspicions about my wife I would revisit these types of things to see if there was unusual interest I didn't previously detect.


----------



## Deguello

I listened to WW burner.There of lots you were very cute,that dress is very nice,complimentary conversations.
WW what time is lunch,,where would you like me to park,I'll park at the usual place and wait for you.
H is working,I have more time today.we won't have to rush. H might start working nights again,I will keep you posted. H is starting to be curious.He wants to know where I am going and when I'll be back. 
Sounds to me like she's getting lessons in something this is not a smoking Gun.Even just half of the conversation sounds like some thing out of kilter. Lots of instructions.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> I listened to WW burner.There of lots you were very cute,that dress is very nice,complimentary conversations.
> WW what time is lunch,,where would you like me to park,I'll park at the usual place and wait for you.
> H is working,I have more time today.we won't have to rush. H might start working nights again,I will keep you posted. Sounds to me like she's getting lessons in something this is not a smoking. Gun


IDK. Could be girl talk in private. Like a long lunch so we don't have to rush.

Could be "lessons"? Idk maybe. Could be 2 women going out to a club or place to meet guys? Or to see specific guys? 

Why would you have to look cute? Could be more time to "play" and don't have to rush the sex.

Why have a burner phone otherwise? 

Any new talents here? Can the OW sudeenly play piano? Idk on the lessons.

A burner phone just for lunch seems extreme.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Another possibility is one is lesbian or bi and the other is not. I have such a friend and from the outside his interactions with me might seem different.

Imagine if you were meeting a very close female friend who you liked but was lesbian. You might still act like a man being with a woman (you know - more sensitive and more intimate) rather than being out with a guy. Hard to describe.

But if there is nice but not inappropriate talk, and a bit more intimate than would occur with someone not attracted to you, it might look weird.

Let me give you another example. We know a gay female couple - really nice and fun - we run into them over the years at all kinds of kid events. The cuter of the two (sorry but it's true) is also more feminine, and she always reached out to my wife to talk. She reaches out to me too, but I can tell she enjoys talking to my wife - she gets that spark and smile - and you know it is nothing bad or threatening or inappropriate - just that she sees what I see in my wife and it's enjoyable to talk to her.

So maybe this accounts for the little off kilter relationship.

Could be a stretch, but this situation is strange


----------



## TheTruthHurts

What's the latest D?


----------



## oneMOreguy

His thread on SI is active.


----------



## turnera

Same name?


----------



## giddiot

turnera said:


> Same name?



Look for bulldog63


----------



## oneMOreguy

Bulldog63...in general area.


----------



## Annie123

oneMOreguy said:


> His thread on SI is active.


What's SI?


----------



## Deguello

Update
For what ever reason,the OBS is not returning my calls,It has been suggested that he might be part of the issue,I'm not going to be so candid and forthcomimg if that is true.it has also been suggested that he might have been involved in the weekend gettaway.I'm going to do some checking,time to change the VAR.


----------



## john117

If he's part of the issue he may have reacted differently after the hospital events. How did you read him then? Did he give any signs he may be involved? 

It's not a very easy thing to cover I would think.


----------



## turnera

He probably just wants to wash his hands of the whole mess. Different people react differently.


----------



## john117

So either he's involved and hiding something, not involved and concerned, or not involved and head in sand.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

turnera said:


> He probably just wants to wash his hands of the whole mess. Different people react differently.



Don't focus on him. He may just want to deal with his marriage in his own way without you being involved. Don't rely on him for support or answers. You have no idea what they may be talking about behind closed doors - the guy may not want to share every detail with you.


----------



## the guy

One would think the var would catch OBS and your wife passing information?

Im thinking a lot would have been said between OBS and your wife with regards to what you have been telling him...unless the OBS knows about the var?


----------



## Deguello

turnera said:


> Same name?


When I pulled the VAR the other day,I was very surprised to hear my WW
talking normal.like nothing was wrong.In laws were visiting,she seemed lucid,I'm wondering if something is afoot.she asked her Mom if she would bring her handbag in Mom told her "G*** has it. I don't know if he'll let me have it""I need it before he goes thru it"


----------



## JohnA

The other day ? Why wait until now to tell us ? I didn't see you mention it on your other forum thread. You also did you share this tidbit: OWM knew it was indeed a week-end get away. 

So next on the night turns: daughter involved with OW son ?


----------



## ILoveSparkles

I'm out. 

For me personally, this thread is getting way too far-fetched and I feel like it's more for entertainment value at this point.

I wonder if others feel the same??


----------



## Deguello

Yes said:


> I'm out.
> 
> For me personally, this thread is getting way too far-fetched and I feel like it's more for entertainment value at this point.
> 
> I wonder if others feel the same??


If you insist.so be it.


----------



## Deguello

Write the way YOU want it to end.


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> Update
> For what ever reason,the OBS is not returning my calls,It has been suggested that he might be part of the issue,I'm not going to be so candid and forthcomimg if that is true.it has also been suggested that he might have been involved in the weekend gettaway.I'm going to do some checking,time to change the VAR.


Suggested by who?


----------



## Deguello

Does it matter WHO suggested it.It is another POV,something I had not even thought of.there are people who seem to think this situation.is a joke,It is not a joke or a story.or a fabrication.I appreciate.all of the advice.and counsel from most.of the people on this site.the other folks who seem to see humor in it.l thanks for your input..


----------



## Deguello

JohnA said:


> The other day ? Why wait until now to tell us ? I didn't see you mention it on your other forum thread. You also did you share this tidbit: OWM knew it was indeed a week-end get away.
> 
> So next on the night turns: daughter involved with OW son ?


No,this time the OW's daughter is abducted by aliens,. friends from uranus and brought back as a Klingon and the son has to take the daughters place


----------



## Deguello

JohnA said:


> The other day ? Why wait until now to tell us ? I didn't see you mention it on your other forum thread. You also did you share this tidbit: OWM knew it was indeed a week-end get away.
> 
> So next on the night turns: daughter involved with OW son ?


No,this time the OW's daughter is abducted by aliens,. friends from uranus and brought back as a Klingon and the son has to take the daughters place


----------



## Catherine602

Yes said:


> I'm out.
> 
> For me personally, this thread is getting way too far-fetched and I feel like it's more for entertainment value at this point.
> 
> I wonder if others feel the same??


What gave it away is the amount of time the women are spending in the hospital and the panties. The panties - no real women would stick a panty in her purse unless it was in a baggie. 

The hospital - insurance payment is the driving force behind days spent in the hospital - they won't pay unless pts needs cannot be met outside of the hospital. The wife would have been discharged within 24 hrs after she was lucid and follow up with neurologist.or sent to a rehab facility. Or to the beach house with her gf and gf h.

I'm out too.


----------



## john117

Maybe they have Obamacare Platinum


----------



## Chaparral

Catherine602 said:


> What gave it away is the amount of time the women are spending in the hospital and the panties. The panties - no real women would stick a panty in her purse unless it was in a baggie.
> 
> The hospital - insurance payment is the driving force behind days spent in the hospital - they won't pay unless pts needs cannot be met outside of the hospital. The wife would have been discharged within 24 hrs after she was lucid and follow up with neurologist.or sent to a rehab facility. Or to the beach house with her gf and gf h.
> 
> I'm out too.


My experience is the opposite of yours on both counts.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

As you get older hospitals start to like you more and want you to stick around. FIL and MIL experienced this - we had to manage the cases and push to get them released each time they were admitted. Lots of tests, OT, PT... Lots of buckets of $$$ for the hospital to mine.

I don't think it was punitive or the doctors and nurses are bad. It's just that if you end up with a significant illness or injury and are over 6? Years old, there is a very different decision process. The urgency is much lower, the testing slower and more extensive, and the pace is slower. You have to ambush doctors.

Probably because those are the bread and butter operations of the health care system. Mid and longer term ailments, chronic conditions, cancer, etc. are "routine" medicine and it's more like a bus route versus commercial airline carrying business travelers.

I go in quarterly for blood work and dr visit for my cancer. I have lots of different doctors so see one -two a month it seems. So I'm like an old man in that sense though I'm in my early 50's

I'll assume this is real and OP's wife is in for OT, PT, etc before being released.


----------



## Abc123wife

Catherine602 said:


> What gave it away is the amount of time the women are spending in the hospital and the panties. The panties - no real women would stick a panty in her purse unless it was in a baggie.
> 
> The hospital - insurance payment is the driving force behind days spent in the hospital - they won't pay unless pts needs cannot be met outside of the hospital. The wife would have been discharged within 24 hrs after she was lucid and follow up with neurologist.or sent to a rehab facility. Or to the beach house with her gf and gf h.
> 
> I'm out too.


I had the same concern. My brother had brain surgery and was out in 24 hours! My dad was moved from hospital to rehab facility within a day or 2 after an ICU hospitalization. No one stays in the hospital for weeks even if they were unconscious for some time. As soon as they are conscious and relatively stable, they are booted!


----------



## Deguello

To those of you that actually care
WW will be released today in the PM or 4 Feb in late pm.
She asked if she could go home,All I said was,Where else would you go?


----------



## TAMAT

Think about your list of questions for her, I've never researched the topic, but there must be sequences which will trip up a liar.

I know with my W asking the question with different words or from an unexpected perspective will produce different answers. 

Tamat


----------



## Abc123wife

Deguello said:


> To those of you that actually care
> WW will be released today in the PM or 4 Feb in late pm.
> She asked if she could go home,All I said was,Where else would you go?


Why have you not come out and asked her where was she headed and what was she doing and why she had a burner phone? Those would be "normal" expected questions that anyone would ask following an accident and found the things you found. 

What explanation has she given? That would also be another normal thing for someone to give after they have had an accident even under normal circumstances. I would think she would naturally be wanting to explain how the accident happened and where she was going and why and who she was with. What has she said? 

Are you two even talking? Seems to be big communications issues and big mystery about even the mundane things in life.

Why was she hospitalized so long? Was there any surgery? What kept her there for almost 3 weeks?


----------



## MattMatt

Deguello said:


> No,this time the OW's daughter is abducted by aliens,. friends from uranus and brought back as a Klingon and the son has to take the daughters place


Remember. Re-entry can be a real problem.

And keep them away from Uranus.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Deguello said:


> To those of you that actually care
> WW will be released today in the PM or 4 Feb in late pm.
> She asked if she could go home,All I said was,Where else would you go?


That is good news.

I think counselling for all 'players' would be a good idea
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Deguello said:


> To those of you that actually care
> WW will be released today in the PM or 4 Feb in late pm.
> She asked if she could go home,All I said was,Where else would you go?


That tells me you haven't even had a discussion about her affair.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I do care, as others do, and so let me ask you...are you going to have the talk with her tonight....and as for that other husband going quiet...i would also get tot he bottom of this, you maybe the only one in the cold in this relationship


----------



## just got it 55

Bulldog63 posted 2/3/2016 12:06 PM
5454 
I have to say she was very "subdued"she asked about the OW,I said she is in a lot of pain still,she (OW) did tell me that her and obs will going into some Intense MC,to work on their marriage. I started to leave,and she asked if I would stay for a while. 
I asked her point blank, 
"How long have you and OW been cheating on OBs and I?"She told me the whole story,but 
A I want to hear it from you. and WHY 
B Do you want to remain married, Yes or No. 
C if yes there will be cosequences. 
D if no I'm going to go home to get the divorce papers.



55


----------



## Deguello

I really hadn't planned asking her anything of importance,but the opportunity presented itself when she asked how the OW was?
I said she was in pain, She said say hi to your W.
I relayed that message,and as I was leaving, she asked if I could stay for a while so I did.
Then I asked how long this affair had ben going on? Before you say anything,R told me the whole story.I want to hear it from you,everything don’t leave ANYTHING out.
A How long has this been going on and why.
B.Do you want to stay married? Yes or no.
If the answer is yes,there must be complete transparency,where you are,who your with,when you will be home counseling is not an option both ic and mc.
If no,I'll have you served with Divorce papers.
C No contact for any reason with the OW


----------



## SofaKingWeToddId

This is the strangest thread.


----------



## Abc123wife

Deguello said:


> I really hadn't planned asking her anything of importance,but the opportunity presented itself when she asked how the OW was?
> I said she was in pain, She said say hi to your W.
> I relayed that message,and as I was leaving, she asked if I could stay for a while so I did.
> Then I asked how long this affair had ben going on? Before you say anything,R told me the whole story.I want to hear it from you,everything don’t leave ANYTHING out.
> A How long has this been going on and why.
> B.Do you want to stay married? Yes or no.
> If the answer is yes,there must be complete transparency,where you are,who your with,when you will be home counseling is not an option both ic and mc.
> If no,I'll have you served with Divorce papers.
> C No contact for any reason with the OW


Huh? I don't understand half of what you write due to weird punctuation. But was this a recent conversation or back when your wife first came to? Did she answer when you asked how long this affair has gone on? Why are you relaying what you said but not what she answered?


----------



## Annie123

abc123wife said:


> huh? I don't understand half of what you write due to weird punctuation. But was this a recent conversation or back when your wife first came to? Did she answer when you asked how long this affair has gone on? *why are you relaying what you said but not what she answered?*


----------



## Bibi1031

john117 said:


> Maybe they have Obamacare Platinum


I have that...I would have been kicked out if I had a pulse!

:surprise::surprise::surprise::surprise::surprise:


----------



## Bibi1031

deguello reminds me of woodchuck to a certain extent. Could they be the same persona but with a different wife and life to keep us hooked and guessing?

I'm with Annie123 on this one!!!!!


----------



## kristin2349

SofaKingWeToddId said:


> This is the strangest thread.



And I thought your thread was strange, I was so wrong >


----------



## Blondilocks

18 pages on SI and 38 pages on TAM, and he can't be bothered to tell us what the hell has been going on. It's ok, he does it to SI, too. He'll get back with the details just as soon as a fellow member suggests them to him. Really? Get a goddamned hobby. TAM is not Hobbytown.


----------



## Annie123

Can someone pls tell me what SI is? 

ETA - nevermind, got it!


----------



## Blondilocks

Surviving Infidelity. He's bulldog63 in the General section.


----------



## Annie123

So this is his last post from the other forum


> The W gave me *the whole story*,after I told her that the OW told me everything,(not)I told her that there were some non-negotiable things needed from us to stay married,I gave her until I got ready to leave, to make up her mind.
> NC starts today,there is no wiggle room.
> There will be more later.


No details again. Lots of cliffhangers!


----------



## bfree

I've refrained from giving much advice because I don't feel there are enough facts known to base that advice on. It's like I'm hearing half a conversation. I'd really like to help but I don't want to give the wrong advice based on limited information.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I think Deguello listens - the VAR has been key to the current status. He's just not s very verbose guy and is more angry than whiney. Not the best communicate. More spotty than Hurt Dude but also more verbose at times. Still a good thread to refer to to help others being gaslighted.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello let us know what THE WHOLE STORY is


----------



## Deguello

This thing my WW is involved in started in HS,with kissing and petting,WW moved,contact was lost before anything serious started. Fast Forward 2009, they"reconnected " started talk back and forth, lunch date was set up at OW's residence.and again they had lunch at the OW's residence.this should have been a red flag for me.
They began to meet without my knowledge, I asked "When are going to have them over for dinner, that was worth a Hostile response.


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## Stang197

What is it with people questioning whether these stories are real? Not everyones life is vanilla. Let these people vent on here. If you don't believe it then leave. Nobody makes anyone follow this stuff.


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## Chaparral

Stang197 said:


> What is it with people questioning whether these stories are real? Not everyones life is vanilla. Let these people vent on here. If you don't believe it then leave. Nobody makes anyone follow this stuff.


We have had a lot of suffering posters ran off here just so some members can display their wit and sarcasm. Do not be surprised to see some bans handed out. Forum rules are being completely ignored on this thread be a few self righteous folks.

Whats so hard about taking your marbles elsewhere if you don't like your playmates? Let the moderators do their job.


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## TheTruthHurts

Op stay and hit the report button. There are thousands of other people here who will listen and help


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## Stang197

I think when someone says that these stories are unbelievable that it could give the OP's the impression that their situations are hopeless. I would assume that is the exact opposite of this forums intentions.


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## Deguello

I am really sorry if I seem like I'm "creating"suspense,I have limited opportunities to post anywhere,I have a lot going on and its not going to get better,most of you have been very supportive,and I really do appreciate your input. 
Please if you think that this BS, DON'T FOLLOW IT. To quote some one here,take your marbles to a different game.no one is forcing ya'all to follow,this is not meant to be entertainment.


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## JohnA

Deguello, some of the comments are indeed out of line. For yourself and others that agree use the black triangle at the bottom of every post to bring the post to the attention of a mod, or use the @ with user name to draw the attention to a mod. Elegirl is very active overall, is a mod, and I've seen her take decisive action. So for example 

@EleGirl, recently there have been a rash of post that maybe out of bounds, could you or another Mod please review and as necessary, delete and warn or delete and ban ? Thank you for your attention in this matter. 

PS in a sense this is how a dispute between spouse can use a MC and MC session can be used. 

I will post later more thoughts on why the means where wrong, the questioning was not. 

I would also point out on one of my posts I stated "the bugle has sounded" there was a two fold reason. To show I was reading this thread closely, that I care since I took the time to research outside of this forum and SI and to see if Deguello picked up on it. For those who don't know why I posted this, use a search engine on his user name.

Finally Deguello read Noc's thread and hurt dudes thread. Their stories were every bit as "truth is stranger then fiction" as yours. Please note I said "truth". 

Bottom line: you cannot expect your wife to out of hand reject your skepticism, and not expect to be challenged here on your story at times.


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> I am really sorry if I seem like I'm "creating"suspense,I have limited opportunities to post anywhere,I have a lot going on and its not going to get better,most of you have been very supportive,and I really do appreciate your input.
> Please if you think that this BS, DON'T FOLLOW IT. To quote some one here,take your marbles to a different game.no one is forcing ya'all to follow,this is not mean to be entertainment.


Please make no mistake. I seriously have no reason to doubt what you're saying. I generally take the approach that anyone who comes on TAM is telling the truth. I just find it difficult to offer productive advice when I don't feel like I have enough information to be useful. I will continue to read and absorb all the information and if I can be helpful I will post my thoughts.


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## imtamnew

@Deguello.

Hang in there. I did suspect for a long time that maybe this was a troll thread. But I don't think it is.
Like 80% sure you are real. 

The only thing which I find strange and completely unbelievable is that you still want to make it work with your wife.
If I was in your shoes....I would be on a holiday in the Himalayas right now. No time for cheaters in my life.


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## TAMAT

Degullo,

You wrote, *kissing and petting,WW moved,contact was lost before anything serious started. *

Kissing and petting are already very serious, many spouses in sexless relationships would give anything to get that from their SO even in the absence of "real sex". For many such things are but a cherished memory. Heck if a woman offered me a relationship which was nothing but kissing I would feel extreme temptation.

Tamat


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## Deguello

Blondilocks said:


> 18 pages on SI and 38 pages on TAM, and he can't be bothered to tell us what the hell has been going on. It's ok, he does it to SI, too. He'll get back with the details just as soon as a fellow member suggests them to him. Really? Get a goddamned hobby. TAM is not Hobbytown.


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## phillybeffandswiss

I stopped commenting because I saw this coming.

Look, post your story and ignore those who do not believe you. 95% of the problem is you have little time post, but you return commenting angrily and sarcastically avoiding telling anyone what happened. You are feeding the situation by playing their game. Ask for advice and let the other comments go.


----------



## Deguello

Annie123 said:


> So this is his last post from the other forum
> 
> No details again. Lots of cliffhangers!


Did you notice the last four words!

She wants to stay married,she agrees to NCC
Total transparency access to electronics anytime
She keeps me apprised of where she is at,who she is with,when she will be home
Anything else I I can clear up for you.?


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## Lostinthought61

stay the course Deg, rough seas ahead but eventually it will become clam. i am very disappointed in your daughter and MIL, frankly the approach you shoudl have with your wife si that you feel like you have been a pawn in this game where she is the only one with the rules of the game. Time to guilt her slowly


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## Chaparral

She claims it hasn't been sexual and she is not a lesbian. If that were true she would not have ut back so drastically on sex with you.


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## Deguello

TAMAT said:


> Degullo,
> 
> You wrote, *kissing and petting,WW moved,contact was lost before anything serious started. *
> 
> Kissing and petting are already very serious, many spouses in sexless relationships would give anything to get that from their SO even in the absence of "real sex". For many such things are but a cherished memory. Heck if a woman offered me a relationship which was nothing but kissing I would feel extreme temptation.
> 
> Tamat


Keep in mind,this relationship started in the late sixties early seventies,I have no doubt that they went a lot farther, this time than their last time in the previous century and it was before we were actually together.
When I was pretty sure of what I was seeing I had an STD done.
I am familiar with a sex less marriage,I'm in one now and you are correct.


----------



## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> She claims it hasn't been sexual and she is not a lesbian. If that were true she would not have ut back so drastically on sex with you.


I really don't think she has turned Lesbian, she may have been Bisexual for a long time but I was not aware of it.
That really is not something you asked a girl in the Seveties, Did you have. Good time, are you bisexual


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## Deguello

Point Taken, thanks


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## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> She claims it hasn't been sexual and she is not a lesbian. If that were true she would not have ut back so drastically on sex with you.


That alone makes me think think she's Bisexual and not lesbian


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## turnera

The thing about women cutting back on the sex, though, is important. Why? Because women typically can only love one person at a time. And when they DO love that person, they usually will not give sex to anyone else BUT that person who they love. 

Which one of you - you or OW - has she been having sex with?


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## Tron

turnera said:


> The thing about women cutting back on the sex, though, is important. Why? Because women typically can only love one person at a time. And when they DO love that person, they usually will not give sex to anyone else BUT that person who they love.
> 
> Which one of you - you or OW - has she been having sex with?


Bingo!

She is a liar and a cheater, just like any other cheater. So what if it was with a woman. 

I get the feeling that you just want to jump into R with her. I wouldn't. Wait! Don't make that decision right now. 

Now is the time to reevaluate everything. 

She has been lying to you about who she was your whole marriage. 
Her AP was more important than you for the last 5 years. That may still be true no matter what she says to you today. 

Stew on that a while. 

Watch what she does and take your time.


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## Deguello

Actually,we have sex once maybe twice a month,and I'm on the high side,
It is a Marital Obligation those are her words and I have to initiate.and the reasonsns for not having sex are without number,I have no idea how often they were getting together without my knowledge.The reason (she says) is because she doesn't need it as much.


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## EleGirl

*WARNING

The pot shots at the OP need to stop. Any further pot shots, calling him a troll, saying you don't believe him, etc. will result in a time-out ban.

It's simple. If you think a poster is a troll report the poster/post using the report button. Then leave the thread.

(speaking as a moderator)*


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## Tron

"Marital obligation" huh? All kinds of excuses not to have sex with you? That's just fantastic.  

Doesn't sound like she loves you dawg.

As far as her not needing it...that sounds like BS to me too. She was getting her intimacy needs met by her girlfriend.

Hold her feet to the fire!


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## Deguello

I thought it was weapons grade bs ,"not tonight I'm getting a cold sore"
Or" I think I might be colming down with something" the list goes on.if she violates the NCC, there will be hell to pay I still have the D papers.


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## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> I thought it was weapons grade bs ,"not tonight I'm getting a cold sore"
> Or" I think I might be colming down with something" the list goes on.if she violates the NCC, there will be hell to pay I still have the D papers.


What's her attitude like? Is she hurt, sad, defensive, remorseful? Is she trying to win you back or push you away?


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## Deguello

Her attitude is good considering the circumstances, She seem sad,very hurt (I don't understand why she feel hurt) she seems remorseful and she is very embarrassed. She KNOWS it was wrong,I need to know WHY she went ahead and did it.She must have thought she was getting away with it.

I'm really trying to take the high road on this,and it is very hard because of the betrayal,she has damaged, if not destroyed 45 years of a relationship that I thought was forever,until death do us part.

I guess I keep wondering if there was something I should have done,should have seen.I'm trying to help her mend physically and emotionally but I have to walk away sometimes because of the pain and hurt.


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## Deguello

Tron said:


> Bingo!
> 
> She is a liar and a cheater, just like any other cheater. So what if it was with a woman.
> 
> I get the feeling that you just want to jump into R with her. I wouldn't. Wait! Don't make that decision right now.
> 
> Now is the time to reevaluate everything.
> 
> She has been lying to you about who she was your whole marriage.
> Her AP was more important than you for the last 5 years. That may still be true no matter what she says to you today.
> 
> Stew on that a while.
> 
> Watch what she does and take your time.


I'm really not going to jump into anything with her,she lied to me for 5 years at least,I'm still not sure I have the bleeding stopped. the more I dig the more I find,It looks like this crap started in 2009,not 2010.and she has been to the OW residence at least twice,been to a "reunion" that she told me she was not going to attend.Several nights out of town that I know now were not where she was suppose to be.This is stuff her friends covered up until I confronted them with proof.I "suggested"that they not let her know that I know,because if this goes to court,my lawyer will bring it out in the open,Two can play this game. it is in their best interest to give her some distance,because at this point in time,I don't give a tinker's damn about collateral damage.


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## Lostinthought61

Is she truly remorseful or is she more upset because she got caught...lets face if it wasn't for the fact that the accident happen it would still be going on...and you know that to be true....don't kid yourself she has more remorse that her friendship with her is over.....then you finding out.


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## Marc878

Deguello said:


> I'm really not going to jump into anything with her,she lied to me for 5 years at least,I'm still not sure I have the bleeding stopped. the more I dig the more I find,It looks like this crap started in 2009,not 2010.and she has been to the OW residence at least twice,been to a "reunion" that she told me she was not going to attend.Several nights out of town that I know now were not where she was suppose to be.This is stuff her friends covered up until I confronted them with proof.I "suggested"that they not let her know that I know,because if this goes to court,my lawyer will bring it out in the open,Two can play this game. it is in their best interest to give her some distance,because at this point in time,I don't give a tinker's damn about collateral damage.


I would definitely call out the perpetrators who helped cover this up as low classed POS. It took you awhile and only a freak accident exposed it. I would Never allow these scum back into my home or speak to them again. I am glad you are out of limbo hell. 

If she isn't in love anymore what's there to save here? Unless its age.


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## Chaparral

Does she know you were already on her trail?

If not, I would tell her you were already looking into divorcing her for the way she has treated you for the last five years.

The behavior you described, is exactly what the big majority of women cheating with men act like when men come here and tell their story. What you are describing is a woman in love with someone other than her husband and is doing their best to be faithful to their partner. You have to suspect she hasnt left you because she doesnt want to come out of the closet. She would not have been treating you like sh.it otherwise. If she were just bi she could have been having a good time with you both.

TALK to the other mans wife and see what happened to his sex life. Another possibility is only one of them refused to come out or the posow is really bi.


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## Deguello

Xenote said:


> Is she truly remorseful or is she more upset because she got caught...lets face if it wasn't for the fact that the accident happen it would still be going on...and you know that to be true....don't kid yourself she has more remorse that her friendship with her is over.....then you finding out.


This weekend she seemed genuinely remorsfull, and she has apologized several times,I sat down on the couch next to her and told her exactly how much this has hurt ME!it will take a long time for the hurt to go away,if it does at all,it is to soon at this point. We we will start IC within a week and MC as soon as possible. I will be talking to some of our "friends" who helped with this deception. I will deal with your Mom personally. You have no idea how much damage this has done. not just to us. You need to think about the collateral damage of this incident.


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## Lostinthought61

Okay so she is remorseful, now the question is the degree to which she is remorseful...namely how much of the truth will she tell you, if she wants this marriage more then she wants to keep her secrets of her affections for the OW, is she will ing to tell you everything? is she willing to be polygraphed? is she willing to write down a timeline?


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## Marc878

Deguello said:


> This weekend she seemed genuinely remorsfull, and she has apologized several times,I sat down on the couch next to her and told her exactly how much this has hurt ME!it will take a long time for the hurt to go away,if it does at all,it is to soon at this point. We we will start IC within a week and MC as soon as possible. I will be talking to some of our "friends" who helped with this deception. I will deal with your Mom personally. You have no idea how much damage this has done. not just to us. You need to think about the collateral damage of this incident.


The lying, betrayal and coverup need consequeces for those involved.

You don't need low class scum like this in your life. I would write MIL off completely and permantley


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## Nucking Futs

Marc878 said:


> The lying, betrayal and coverup need consequeces for those involved.
> 
> You don't need low class scum like this in your life. I would write MIL off completely and permantley


And how much did your daughter know?


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## Deguello

She agreed to a Polygraph,She asked if I would take one also,all I said was sure,but why do I need to,you got caught lying.and.cheating.
"When were you going to tell me you were Bisexual?" or Lesbian?
I'm not a Lesbian,neither is R, So you are both Bisexual. Yes,
Why couldn’t you have just told me that?
When did this start.? 
I think it was Jr .High. At a sleep over that what I told my parents,it was just R and I,and her sister. We experimented with each other and liked it.we thought.
The timeline is pretty clear to me.


----------



## Deguello

Nucking Futs said:


> And how much did your daughter know?


I sent our DD a registered letter telling her that she needs to tell me EVERYTHING.
You Mom was out of line getting you involved,she has to fix this with you..This was our business,You're Grandmother is in deep s**t and I will deal with her. But I need to know EVERYTHING.


----------



## Chaparral

What is her reason for cutting you off and treating you like she has been. Was she trying to get you to divorce her?


----------



## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> What is her reason for cutting you off and treating you like she has been. Was she trying to get you to divorce her?


I asked her that same question,she thought that was giving her more control over me,so she could do what she wanted, If there is logic there I don’t see it,that is what she said, Divorce was not part of it, Maybe she was punishing me,or thought she was


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## bandit.45

If she is an admitted bisexual then you have a problem, because there are needs she has, both sexual and emotional, that you as a dude are not going to be able to take care of. 

I dunno. It's hard to believe she would hide this truth from you for nearly half a century. Must have been damn awful for her. Has she admitted to prior affairs with other women?


----------



## Deguello

She "said" that both she and the OW were Bisexual,I wouldn't know the OW from adam before this Cluster F**ck blew up,the last time I saw her she was drugged and bandaged up,
I have been living with this woman for over 40 years and never saw anything even remotley indicative of Bisexual behavior.so I'm not buying that just yet.I have NO Idea why she would say that.


----------



## Deguello

She has never even hinted that she has had "affairs" with other women ,I had not seen any out of line behavior towards other females.
This behavior started in Jr High School from what she has said.but that was long before I came along.IDK about this .I just feel like this is a smokescreen.


----------



## giddiot

What else do you think she could be hiding? Any ideas?


----------



## Lostinthought61

Sounds like broke back mountain to me....in other words its not about being bisexual to or with others, it about loving another human being that happens to be of the same gender...it sounds like she has always loved her, whether that love was unfulfilled sexual or not is irrelevant, what is highly relevant, is that you have a bigger problem, she will not forget this person, she has known her longer than she knew you, and i promise you this...if you die tomorrow she will be back in her life before you lay in the ground. So you can physically keep them apart, but emotional and mental you can't stop that, and in trying you will drive yourself crazy.


----------



## Deguello

Xenote said:


> Sounds like broke back mountain to me....in other words its not about being bisexual to or with others, it about loving another human being that happens to be of the same gender...it sounds like she has always loved her, whether that love was unfulfilled sexual or not is irrelevant, what is highly relevant, is that you have a bigger problem, she will not forget this person, she has known her longer than she knew you, and i promise you this...if you die tomorrow she will be back in her life before you lay in the ground. So you can physically keep them apart, but emotional and mental you can't stop that, and in trying you will drive yourself crazy.


Well she knows she was wrong....now. I don't know how to work around that idea.I'm not sure that I can "share" her with a woman if she can't break it off with the OW,all I can see is a whole bunch of collateral damage to a bunch of people. On both sides,unless the OBS knew all along in which case he won't give a damn about me.
It seem my options are are getting confused. I think I need a drink or six.


----------



## turnera

Deguello said:


> I'm not sure that I can "share" her with a woman if she can't break it off with the OW


Wait a minute. You aren't going to allow her to get to stay married to you if she won't give up the OW, are you? Surely you're not that clueless.

"Her or me. I won't share."


----------



## Lostinthought61

Deguello said:


> Well she knows she was wrong....now. I don't know how to work around that idea.I'm not sure that I can "share" her with a woman if she can't break it off with the OW,all I can see is a whole bunch of collateral damage to a bunch of people. On both sides,unless the OBS knew all along in which case he won't give a damn about me.
> It seem my options are are getting confused. I think I need a drink or six.



Was that six or sex? ;-) you probably need both.

in all seriousness Deg, your span of control with her might be limiting, i suspect that she is a woman who has given her heart to two people, you and the OW. At the very least she has been carrying a touch for her for some time now. I understand your dilemma, and though you can stop her from physically being with the other woman not sure how you can stop a thought or a glance as she ponders thoughts of being with her. this will take some time, and hours in therapy. I just need to ask you....are you okay with living with someone who may ver much love you but still has feelings for someone she can not have.


----------



## Deguello

turnera said:


> Wait a minute. You aren't going to allow her to get to stay married to you if she won't give up the OW, are you? Surely you're not that clueless.
> 
> "Her or me. I won't share."


No.I don't share well,at all there will be no sharing or threesomes


----------



## Deguello

Xenote said:


> Was that six or sex? ;-) you probably need both.
> 
> in all seriousness Deg, your span of control with her might be limiting, i suspect that she is a woman who has given her heart to two people, you and the OW. At the very least she has been carrying a touch for her for some time now. I understand your dilemma, and though you can stop her from physically being with the other woman not sure how you can stop a thought or a glance as she ponders thoughts of being with her. this will take some time, and hours in therapy. I just need to ask you....are you okay with living with someone who may ver much love you but still has feelings for someone she can not have.


At this point Both would be outstanding.
I guess it depend on how committed she is to Reconciling,she has already broken my heart once at least,All I have asked is that she honor her vows she made to me.four + decades ago.


----------



## JohnA

Actually from her point of view the logic is sound. Consider:

Our sexuality contains far more elements then just simple penatration. 

One element is the need for acceptance. 

If acceptance is as necessary as water, and she is the only source of water, she owns you. 

Absolute power, corrupts absolutely. hence the snafu you have today. 

Your situation also shows that adultery wether PA or EA (same sex or opposite sex) also shows it always about more then just sex. Look at what her absence in your in life has meant to you. I have been thinking that your situation shows clearly that it is never just sex. After all it is not like the OW is a OM. Many of your current issues would still exist even if no change had occurred in your sex life.


----------



## bandit.45

Deguello said:


> She has never even hinted that she has had "affairs" with other women ,I had not seen any out of line behavior towards other females.
> This behavior started in Jr High School from what she has said.but that was long before I came along.IDK about this .I just feel like this is a smokescreen.


Well, she managed to sandbag you and keep you in the dark for the majority of this affair. This may have been her first rodeo, or, she has managed to pull the wool over your eyes for 40 years and finally just got sloppy with this one.

I wouldn't believe a word she is telling you. Regardless of her sexual orientation, the overriding problem is that she has a cheater's mentality. 

I dunno, maybe she thought if it was a woman she was cheating with, you wouldn't get as upset about it as if she had been doing a guy.


----------



## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> Well, she managed to sandbag you and keep you in the dark for the majority of this affair. This may have been her first rodeo, or, she has managed to pull the wool over your eyes for 40 years and finally just got sloppy with this one.
> 
> I wouldn't believe a word she is telling you. Regardless of her sexual orientation, the overriding problem is that she has a cheater's mentality.
> 
> I dunno, maybe she thought if it was a woman she was cheating with, you wouldn't get as upset about it as if she had been doing a guy.


Because as everyone knows, all men are totally cool with their woman having sex with another woman, right?

Wrong, actually. It is still cheating.

Damn! 35 years later and the fact that I got dumped by my first LTR girlfriend for a woman still rankles with me, just a little bit.


----------



## Blondilocks

"Well she knows she was wrong....now."

Deg, if she truly didn't think this was wrong before, then she has something missing in her morals basket. It sounds like a lie. Maybe you could get her to see a psychologist for some personality workup.

Have you heard back from your daughter? Have you talked to your MIL? Those two should be sitting on pins and needles. Would a chat with FIL benefit you? Poor guy, he probably can't believe and just wishes it would all go away.


----------



## Deguello

Blondilocks said:


> "Well she knows she was wrong....now."
> 
> Deg, if she truly didn't think this was wrong before, then she has something missing in her morals basket. It sounds like a lie. Maybe you could get her to see a psychologist for some personality workup.
> 
> Have you heard back from your daughter? Have you talked to your MIL? Those two should be sitting on pins and needles. Would a chat with FIL benefit you? Poor guy, he probably can't believe and just wishes it would all go away.


Nothing from my DD,I'M Not real comfortable speaking with the MIL right now,
I'm starting to feel like everybody knows what is going on but me,not a good feeling 
.i'm feeling like I should tell her to pack her **** and get out,Maybe her Mom will take care of her...maybe thats what I should do,but I won't.it kinda goes against my upbringing.


----------



## turnera

The ONLY times I've seen betrayed men come out with a decent marriage are when the betrayed men kicked the women out and made them PROVE themselves to get to come back to the men. It's a woman thing. By taking her back, you instantly proved yourself weak. And manipulatable.


----------



## Deguello

In this case it would have shown that I was a hard hearted,cold blooded. Unfeeling son of a *****,the woman was hurt,barely able to pee by her self,It was my call to make,she is still my wife.


----------



## Marc878

Deguello said:


> In this case it would have shown that I was a hard hearted,cold blooded. Unfeeling son of a *****,the woman was hurt,barely able to pee by her self,It was my call to make,she is still my wife.


Is she?


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> In this case it would have shown that I was a hard hearted,cold blooded. Unfeeling son of a *****,the woman was hurt,barely able to pee by her self,It was my call to make,she is still my wife.


I can understand your sense of honor. But should she profit from an accident that occurred whilst on her way to a tryst with her lover? Can't you begin the divorce process while she recovers. If nothing else it will send a clear message that the status quo is no longer acceptable and consequences will occur regardless of mitigating factors.


----------



## turnera

Really? You could have just told her to go live with her lover. Since that's who she's in love with. I'm sure she had a willing partner to take her in. That wouldn't have been abandoning her, being unfeeling. 

That's your own low self worth talking.


----------



## Deguello

turnera said:


> Really? You could have just told her to go live with her lover. Since that's who she's in love with. I'm sure she had a willing partner to take her in. That wouldn't have been abandoning her, being unfeeling.
> 
> That's your own low self worth talking.


FYI,Her "lover" is in worse shape than she is,the OW has at least one arm and two legs in casts. And she can't even take care of herself.
It is my sense of honor,duty,responsibility, until we are no longer married. For whatever reason.My WW is not getting off,her journey is just starting. I have given her a copy of the divorce papers,any times she wants to, she can sign it and be done with our marriage.I have that option also at my discretion.


----------



## Deguello

All Divorce documents are complete,but not signed,they are in the safe(I changed the combo right after the accident)and she knows that.
She knows what is expected if she wants to remain my wife,the ball is in her court,but I'm the referee.


----------



## JohnA

Not going to argue your choice to care for her, it's probably a good one. Since you have the divorce papers filed out, laid out basic conditions, such as taking a poly you are acting out of strength. Peace proposed out of weakness always fails. Peace offered out of strength is the only option that MAY succeed. The only weakness is if she decides you don't have the will to follow though. 

Your daughter needs to come clean. She was put in a no win situation by her mother and choose to put her head in the sand. People who do that never realize their butt is much easier to hit then their head. 

Finally work on your exposure letter. This link has good suggestions as to the what to include. Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> All Divorce documents are complete,but not signed,they are in the safe(I changed the combo right after the accident)and she knows that.
> She knows what is expected if she wants to remain my wife,the ball is in her court,but I'm the referee.


Shouldn't the de facto position be that you are divorcing until and unless she can somehow convince you to alter course? As of now she has broken your vows so in the eyes of God you are no longer bound to her. If you were just meeting her now, knowing what you know about her, would you marry her? That's the question isn't it because going forward if you stay together it is an entirely new marriage. She has to prove to you that she is worthy of that commitment.


----------



## JohnA

@bfree I think him having already discussed this situation with, and having an attorney draw up the divorce papers indicates what you suggest is his defacto position. At least I hope. Now comes the hard part, summing up the will to follow though if necessary.


----------



## Deguello

God also says to forgive 7 times seventy,Love does not keep score or hold a grudge,love is forever.
God brought us together,why should I change that because of pride?


----------



## JohnA

@Deguello, to be flip, didn't realize you were married to god. Truth is a lot of people could match you saying the opposite quote for quote. 

I just defended your stance and state a reason why. Your quote I take to mean working at creating an opportunity for redemption and renewal, but does not take divorce off the table. 

How long are you willing to live in limbo? What will cause you to say "enough go in peace, as I will in a new direction"?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> God also says to forgive 7 times seventy,Love does not keep score or hold a grudge,love is forever.
> God brought us together,


“Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery” (Matthew 19:9)

God makes an exception for your wife ****ing her girlfriend.

You don't need to pass the buck to God or anyone else for your decision. You have every right to accept the way your wife treated you for the last 5 years while she was cuckolding you. 

Just as you have every right to change your mind at any time.


----------



## Blondilocks

Deguello said:


> God also says to forgive 7 times seventy,Love does not keep score or hold a grudge,love is forever.
> God brought us together,why should I change that because of pride?


Deguello, if you want to read what this mindset will do to you, go to the private section and read New Phoenix 5's thread. I believe he's going on 3 years of this nonsense and he appears to be a shadow of the man he once was. In the five years that she has been betraying you, you most likely have already forgiven her 7 times seventy.

Love yourself first so you can then offer love to others. Peace and Good Luck!


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> God also says to forgive 7 times seventy,Love does not keep score or hold a grudge,love is forever.
> God brought us together,why should I change that because of pride?


God divorced Israel for adultery. Adultery is one of the very few things that the bible says is grounds for divorce.


----------



## Deguello

bfree said:


> God divorced Israel for adultery. Adultery is one of the very few things that the bible says is grounds for divorce.


I agree it does say you CAN divorce for adultry/fornication,it is an option.it may happen,but it is my option.We will discuss this,she is NOT off the hook,there will be consequences.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> I agree it does say you CAN divorce for adultry/fornication,it is an option.it may happen,but it is my option.We will discuss this,she is NOT off the hook,there will be consequences.


I have no problem with what you're doing, I just don't want you to pass off responsibility for your decision as Gods will. This is _your_ call, you should own it.

Okay, I have a _bit_ of a problem with what you're doing. Maybe it's just that you're so taciturn in your posting but it appears that you went straight to R. That's almost always a mistake. Waywards who don't have to fight for R tend to devalue it.

Have you read other threads here and at SI? Experience is the best teacher, but it doesn't have to be your experience. These threads are other peoples experience in dealing with infidelity, and you can learn a lot by reading some of them. It won't take long before you start picking out the patterns.


----------



## Deguello

We are nowhere near R.I don't expect that for years,I don't know if I will completely heal, 
WW on the other hand is recovering nicely,enough so that she made a"pass" at me the other evening.
It was too soon, she was not up to it physically,and I wasn't up to it emotionally,the hurt was too raw.
I considered letting them have a "last contact"then,
I decided not to,their "last goodbye" was the sound of breaking glass and bending metal.
PTSD is ugly but survivable, I did it they have counselors for that.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Well it's probably good that you considered letting her say goodbye - you do seem empathetic.

Is she aware of how the OW came out of the accident?


----------



## Deguello

If she knows how the OW is,she violated the NCC,I'll find out if she knows. it's time to check the var and her phone and e-mail,I am trying to take the "high road" here.The OBS made her sign a NCC also as soon as she could write.there might be two violations


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> *We are nowhere near R.*I don't expect that for years,I don't know if I will completely heal,
> WW on the other hand is recovering nicely,enough so that she made a"pass" at me the other evening.
> It was too soon, she was not up to it physically,and I wasn't up to it emotionally,the hurt was too raw.
> I considered letting them have a "last contact"then,
> I decided not to,their "last goodbye" was the sound of breaking glass and bending metal.
> PTSD is ugly but survivable, I did it they have counselors for that.


Not true. You, in your mind, may be nowhere near R, but the actions you are taking are the actions of someone in R. You gave her the choice. You put the decision in her hands. You are the passive recipient of what she decides. This is where I think you are going wrong. The marriages that survive infidelity are the marriages where the wayward spouse gets shocked with losing everything and has to fight to win the betrayed back. You're dancing a subdued version of the pick me jig by letting her decide.


----------



## Deguello

Nucking Futs said:


> Not true. You, in your mind, may be nowhere near R, but the actions you are taking are the actions of someone in R. You gave her the choice. You put the decision in her hands. You are the passive recipient of what she decides. This is where I think you are going wrong. The marriages that survive infidelity are the marriages where the wayward spouse gets shocked with losing everything and has to fight to win the betrayed back. You're dancing a subdued version of the pick me jig by letting her decide.


What choice did I give her?she is done having choices,right now my choices are her choices.she has hurt me badly and broken my heart.wait till I tell she has to write an exposure letter.none of this os negotiable.


----------



## just got it 55

Deguello Since you now know more detail of why your WW has been behaving weird your posts are much more detailed and coherent. 

Because you were having trouble expressing what you were experiencing it made your thread seem troll-ish

You seem to be more in control and I believe you will come to the right conclusions

55


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> What choice did I give her?she is done having choices,right now my choices are her choices.she has hurt me badly and broken my heart.wait till I tell she has to write an exposure letter.none of this os negotiable.


You are giving her the most important choice of all, the choice to continue the marriage. She didn't have to do _anything_ to get you to offer that, you just came out with it. All these other consequences shouldn't have even come up until she had begged you not to divorce her.


----------



## Deguello

Nucking Futs said:


> You are giving her the most important choice of all, the choice to continue the marriage. She didn't have to do _anything_ to get you to offer that, you just came out with it. All these other consequences shouldn't have even come up until she had begged you not to divorce her.


She has to want to stay in the Marriage,It was an OFFER,she can decide not to,or she can decide to stay,however staying will require a lot from her,I also have the power to take back that offer at any time,if she breaks the conditions to stay. It was my call.


----------



## Deguello

just got it 55 said:


> Deguello Since you now know more detail of why your WW has been behaving weird your posts are much more detailed and coherent.
> 
> Because you were having trouble expressing what you were experiencing it made your thread seem troll-ish
> 
> You seem to be more in control and I believe you will come to the right conclusions
> 
> 55


The more information I have,also gives more "clout" and I don’t have to spend much energy digging,thanks for noticing


----------



## TheTruthHurts

D here's my prediction and I say it with no judgement or bias as to how this plays out.

W has a very rough period ahead. She is - and perhaps always has been - in love with the OW. She probably pushed it aside, but held a candle for this OW. As the years rolled by, she accumulated small things about you that didn't live up to get idealized "secret love" which only lived in her mind and was flawless. The OW who also married a man, probably went down the same path.

The heart wants what the heart can't have...

The opportunity came up to rekindle things and they took it. They had the cheaters mentality - they deserved this, damm it! True entitlement! How do I know? She OPENLY had the affair, and when you repeatedly asked and tried to ensure you knew who this woman was, she bluntly told you that YOU would never have any relationship with her! It's astounding how brazen that was!

Since this was her right, she openly met and allowed her live to flourish. She took her accumulated minor and pethaps not so minor grievances, stacked them up, compared them to her picture perfect love, declared her love for you dead or on life support at best, and focused her love and affection on the OW.

I assume the OW did the same.

Meanwhile you twisted on the wind and she knew it! She had to enjoy your suffering at some level as something you deserved. She actively gas lighted and lied to keep your life on suspended animation not knowing what you had done wrong.

She "allowed" you to be a provider and support her and facilitate her love for the OW. She fell periodic duty sex was sufficient payment, but only on condition that you knew she despised it. If was a fair trade but she was prostituting herself.

Of course this fairy tale was not sustainable indefinitely. It could have gone on maybe 5 more years of h3ll for you but it would have unraveled.

All of the above, sadly, is the "normal" cheater script and behavior.

Unfortunately you love this woman. You will know this was the way people of weak character act in these circumstances. Your love, rational approach, and empathy will make you believe she can realize this was all a bad dream and not rational. Therefore you will slowly forgive her. If she seems sad you will want to believe it is remorse. If she shows signs the old her is there you will take her back.

You will never forget and you will always hurt. She will never understand.

We do t know enough about her to know if she is capable of remorse. Few are after doing what she did. They have to admit they were beyond horrible every day to the one they were supposed to live. Few can go there without grasping for some excuse or justification.

Good luck D. I think your real pain is only starting.


----------



## ihatethis

Deguello said:


> God also says to forgive 7 times seventy,Love does not keep score or hold a grudge,love is forever.
> God brought us together,why should I change that because of pride?


I'm sorry but I believe this isn't accurate. Yes, God brought you together, but CLEARLY your wife does not hold your vows like you do.

She already has betrayed you on so many levels. Find your balls again, and be a man. 

It's good to help take care of her while she is hurt, but you also have to realize that your woman has a deep love for the OW.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> She has to want to stay in the Marriage,It was an OFFER,she can decide not to,or she can decide to stay,however staying will require a lot from her,I also have the power to take back that offer at any time,if she breaks the conditions to stay. It was my call.


----------



## Deguello

ihatethis said:


> I'm sorry but I believe this isn't accurate. Yes, God brought you together, but CLEARLY your wife does not hold your vows like you do.
> 
> She already has betrayed you on so many levels. Find your balls again, and be a man.
> 
> It's good to help take care of her while she is hurt, but you also have to realize that your woman has a deep love for the OW.


I know where my balls are,they are intact and attached,I try not to depend on them for major decisions because that ALWAYs get me into trouble


----------



## JohnA

D, if the tone you took with 55 is your norm, your desire to R will fail.


----------



## Chaparral

Actually, it looks like this had come to a head one way or another.

Have you let her know you were already on to her or does she think they were only caught because of the accident? Her face should be interesting if you tell her you were watching her in the restaurant.

Only hint at what you know. Do not tell her everything you know. It will be easier to get info from her if you keep her guessing.

I agree with the other posters that you had been completely replaced. I don't think you have a great chance of fixing this.


----------



## Deguello

Chaparral said:


> Actually, it looks like this had come to a head one way or another.
> 
> Have you let her know you were already on to her or does she think they were only caught because of the accident? Her face should be interesting if you tell her you were watching her in the restaurant.
> 
> Only hint at what you know. Do not tell her everything you know. It will be easier to get info from her if you keep her guessing.
> 
> I agree with the other posters that you had been completely replaced. I don't think you have a great chance of fixing this.


Everybody seems to think that she"made me" at the restaurant,I'm convinced I was not recognized.she had NO idea I was on her trail,
On another note,the OW sent me a friend request on FB,very odd indeed.all is not lost,I've seen some amazing changes but I want to see if it is for real before I brag.


----------



## Deguello

The OW sent me a "friend"request on FB,my instinct tells me no,that it is trouble,the OBH called me and wants us to have "dinner" with them,seems weird to me.I said there is a "No Contact" in effect isn't there?
That would negate the NC,I would think.any thoughts..?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> The OW sent me a "friend"request on FB,my instinct tells me no,that it is trouble,the OBH called me and wants us to have "dinner" with them,seems weird to me.I said there is a "No Contact" in effect isn't there?
> That would negate the NC,I would think.any thoughts..?


No contact means no contact. That's my first thought. My second thought is you can take the B out of OBH, if he's advocating for breaking no contact he was either in on it from the beginning or he's a fool.

When you do the poly you need to find out whether she's had sexual contact with anyone besides you and OW since you married.


----------



## TAMAT

Degullo,

I would accept the FB invite, then copy down every one of the OWs facebook contacts, so when the time comes to expose the OW you will have them on file.

I would also accept the dinner invitation any intel you get, even misinformation, adds a piece to the puzzle and gives you stories to check against your Ws. Of course you should go alone this is a recon mission you are not there to make friends or be social. 

I spoke at length with OM-1 a few years ago, our children were present so I did not to the main topic, yet it was still well worth it to have done so. It put OM-1 on notice and my W on edge.

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

I've set up the poly for the end of Feb,she has to be off all pain meds for at least 96 hours,the tech said 48hrs,96 was my idea.I have some good questions.
1 Did you have a threesome both OW and her H?
2 Did this start in MS or HS?
3.Did this start when you"reconnected"in 2009?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

How many other EA or PA relationships have there been since you and I met?

How many sexual encounters - of any nature - have you had with others since you and I met?


----------



## Deguello

I am not going to trust the OW's H any farther than I can throw him,and I am having WW retested for STD's.The next time DD comes down all three of us will have a conversation about loyalty and honesty,that is the only way I can get the truth. If I could stand to see my MIL I'd invite her to,maybe in time,not now. I'm going to want names and addresses of who knew what,


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> I've set up the poly for the end of Feb,she has to be off all pain meds for at least 96 hours,the tech said 48hrs,96 was my idea.I have some good questions.
> 1 Did you have a threesome both OW and her H?
> 2 Did this start in MS or HS?
> 3.Did this start when you"reconnected"in 2009?


These questions are too tight. You want to know if she's had sexual contact with _anyone_ since you married, not just OW and H.


----------



## just got it 55

Deguello said:


> The OW sent me a "friend"request on FB,my instinct tells me no,that it is trouble,the OBH called me and wants us to have "dinner" with them,seems weird to me.I said there is a "No Contact" in effect isn't there?
> That would negate the NC,I would think.any thoughts..?


Three way No Doubt

55


----------



## Tron

just got it 55 said:


> Three way No Doubt
> 
> 55


"No Doubt"...really???... :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:

It's a possibility, but not a certainty.

IMO, your W absolutely does not go to this meeting. NC means NC.

Strategically, I am not sure whether it would be best to meet with them after the poly or before. Probably before, that way you can ask your W during the poly if she has had any contact with them since the accident and to cross-check to see if their stories match.


----------



## just got it 55

Tron said:


> "No Doubt"...really???... :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:
> 
> It's a possibility, but not a certainty.
> 
> IMO, your W absolutely does not go to this meeting. NC means NC.
> 
> Strategically, I am not sure whether it would be best to meet with them after the poly or before. Probably before, that way you can ask your W during the poly if she has had any contact with them since the accident and to cross-check to see if their stories match.


Well T you may not believe this but.... I have been wrong before

55


----------



## MattMatt

Nucking Futs said:


> These questions are too tight. You want to know if she's had sexual contact with _anyone_ since you married, not just OW and H.


This is the format used by the polygraph expert on the Jeremy Kyle show in the UK:

1) During your relationship with xxxx have you passionately kissed any other person?
2) During your relationship with xxxx have you had any sexual contact with any other person?
3) During your relationship with xxxx have you had sexual intercourse with any other person?


----------



## Tron

just got it 55 said:


> Well T you may not believe this but.... I have been wrong before
> 
> 55


Once in 55 years maybe. :wink2:

This relationship and the come over to our house thing is a bit strange, so I wouldn't be surprised that there may still be a twist somewhere in this story that hasn't yet surfaced.


----------



## Deguello

Tron said:


> Once in 55 years maybe. :wink2:
> 
> This relationship and the come over to our house thing is a bit strange, so I wouldn't be surprised that there may still be a twist somewhere in this story that hasn't yet surfaced.


I don't think it's a threesome,I asked WW what OS's involvement was, She told me that he was not present or particpated.I will have to confirm that with the poly, I do believe he was aware of what was going on to a point of encouraging and /condoning.
When I was deep into porn,the WW took that as cheating,.So my comment was,If you were naked ,partially naked,kissing,petting,other intimate behavior,you were cheating,how is that different and it was with a woman,how is that not cheating? Your poly will be at 2:00 pm on Monday,you have until Sunday to tell me everything.This is not negotiable .and I left it at that


----------



## Tron

Your W still denies that she was cheating on you?


----------



## Adelais

Deguello said:


> We are nowhere near R.I don't expect that for years,I don't know if I will completely heal,
> WW on the other hand is recovering nicely,enough so that she made a"pass" at me the other evening.
> It was too soon, she was not up to it physically,and I wasn't up to it emotionally,the hurt was too raw.
> I considered letting them have a "last contact"then,
> I decided not to,their "last goodbye" was the sound of breaking glass and bending metal.
> PTSD is ugly but survivable, I did it they have counselors for that.


The "last goodbye" should be a "NO CONTACT" letter, explaining that what they have done all these years was wrong, and that she will not be her friend anymore, and will dedicate all her energy into restoring the marriage, and convincing her husband that he didn't make a mistake by marrying her years ago, and by not divorcing her immediately upon discovery of the adulterous affair with her girlfriend.

They should never see each other again, under any circumstances. They were not old Jr. High girlfriends, they were lovers.


----------



## Chaparral

If she wasn't having sex with her she wouldn't have cut you off!


----------



## Deguello

Tron said:


> Your W still denies that she was cheating on you?


There is no way she can deni that she was cheating,after what she told me about their HS xploits at sleepovers of two.and she has NOT told me otherwise,cheating is cheating,the poly will tell tale for sure,I don’t care if they were just touching nude,it is being unfaithful


----------



## Deguello

Deguello said:


> There is no way she can deni that she was cheating,after what she told me about their HS xploits at sleepovers of two.and she has NOT told me otherwise,cheating is cheating,the poly will tell tale for sure,I don’t care if they were just touching nude,it is being unfaithful


If she thought the use of porn was cheating,she can't say what she was doing isn't infidelity.I can't help But wonder ,what else have I missed.more questions for the poly.


----------



## bankshot1993

Deguello said:


> The OW sent me a "friend"request on FB,my instinct tells me no,that it is trouble,the OBH called me and wants us to have "dinner" with them,seems weird to me.I said there is a "No Contact" in effect isn't there?
> That would negate the NC,I would think.any thoughts..?


I may be way off base but my gut is telling me the OWH was involved and now they are trying to contact you under the guise of making amends but to feel you out to see if there is a chance of continuing in an open relationship if you are invited to join.

I can see no other motivation for wanting to contact you and friend you on FB.


----------



## Deguello

bankshot1993 said:


> I may be way off base but my gut is telling me the OWH was involved and now they are trying to contact you under the guise of making amends but to feel you out to see if there is a chance of continuing in an open relationship if you are invited to join.
> 
> I can see no other motivation for wanting to contact you and friend you on FB.


I share a lot of things,My wife is NOT one of them,at least knowingly,I don’t swing,I don’t share,I am a monogamous kinda man.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Personally I think OBH is weak and sees that to keep his wife he must allow her to also have female relationships. So if that's the case he has already come to terms with her other side. That or he also just found out but has been told they will stay together only on condition she gets that need fulfilled.

He may be doing this at her request to talk you down and rig sweep this so he keeps his W happy.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I think OBH is just trying to salvage his marriage under pressure


----------



## Deguello

Because I do not know these people,I'm just guessing she has "control issus"that would explain a lot but how would two control freaks do in an intimate relationship ?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Deguello said:


> Because I do not know these people,I'm just guessing she has "control issus"that would explain a lot but how would two control freaks do in an intimate relationship ?


I think women respond to people. So she may want to be in a position of control with you, but be submissive or equal to the OW if she is exploring, and wants to give the lead to the OW


----------



## bankshot1993

D, Having thought about this for a while now I think I would meet with the other couple. But only if I could do it without the wife finding out about the meeting.

I say this for a couple reasons. first you may get new information. You have decided to work towards R, which is great and I am usually a proponent of doing just that. If R is the goal trust will need to be rebuilt. This is a great chance for you to find out more information. Information that your wife will not know you have and information that will allow you to fact check what she is telling you. If what she is telling you checks out against what they are telling you than you know there is an effort to rebuild and she is being truthful. However if she isn't telling the truth than you know there is still things she is hiding and R can't be achieved if that is going on. Eventually those demons will surface and it might as well be now instead of 2 years down the road and have them undo 2 years worth of work.

The second reason I would go is to find out if he was involved as well. They don't know how much you know or what the wife has told you. Use this to your advantage and get more disclosure. Up to this point you've been willing to work on R because you thought the affair was just between your wife and the other woman, what if you find out the other man was involved as well? will that make a difference in your resolve to R. Will you be able to continue working towards R if there was 2 AP's instead of just 1.

Hopefully everybody above is correct and this is just an attempt on the OBH to reconcile what he knows but it looks to me like the effort is being driven by the OW and he is along for the ride. This suggests, as mentioned in earlier posts, that one of 3 things is going on. Either the husband knows and is OK with it, it is being forced down his throat but he's willing to go along to keep his wife or he was involved all along.

In that meeting I would use language that subtly implies that I know he was involved without coming out and saying it. use statements that imply you know but leave room for him to interpret it a different way if he wasn't involved. These questions need to be a little on the evasive side because if he wasn't involved and you tell them that he was they will know that you don't know everything and will be a lot less willing to offer any information without getting it from you first.

Ultimately it is up to you how much you want to know and how much you'll be able to forgive. You may decide that you want to put it behind you and the ugly details will just make it harder to accomplish that but I'm sure most people will tell you the unknown will haunt you for a lot longer than the facts ever will because your imagination can make up stories a hundred times worse than reality sometimes.


----------



## Deguello

For that to happen,I would insist on a public place,I get strange vibes,He called me on wednesday,and we played "phone tag"until late afternoon,I got the feeling I was on speakerfone and he made it sound like we were "old drinking buddies" we are not. There was an echo and background noise.He invited uus to dinner,again at Their house because the OW is still not very mobile. Not my problem,I do not trust either one of them, I'm not comfortabel being on their turf.I get the impression that they are in an alternate lifestyle,that I want no part of.
I share a lot of things,my wife and my sex life(such as it is)are not not up for sharing.
Nothing would surprise me,up to and including chemicals.I know a couple that"swing".not me not ever. MY W Has told me that he was neither present and did not participate in any way she was aware of,other than condoneing and/or encouraging his W.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Well let's face it, right now anything coming out of your wife mouth might be half truths at the most. like you say polygraph will help determine the truth. and i would be upfront with that husband and tell him that you are not interested in ever meeting them again. that lying and deceitfulness does not play with you.


----------



## Deguello

Today was POLY day, this was her first "affair" ever,it did not heat up until two years ago,it was a rekindling of HS stuff., My WW was nervouse about going to the beach and misleadimg me.I saw real remorse and fear.I got a detailed time line and she will do whatever it takes to regain my trust.She agreed to never see, talk to, communicate with the OW ever again.she wiil sit down with our daughter and her mother and try to make things right.the tech said she did well.we will do this again if we need to.when we get to couples MC, there will be sex therapy for both of us.


----------



## turnera

When are the 'talks' scheduled?


----------



## the guy

So did you tell this guy that it was over?
I'm guessing you told him not to contact you or your old lady ever again...but you didn't mention how the phone conversation ended.


----------



## Deguello

I said the only respons needed was no I won't contact your Wife and neither will my wife,no contact is allowed please honor this request.


----------



## Deguello

MIL's calendar is being cleard for next.weekend and DD will be there also.this will be really hard for MWW


----------



## Deguello

I could tell he was on speaker,so I guess I told both of them "no contact whatsoever,I was polite but firm there was no question what my intent was I did not leave much room for argumment


----------



## Deguello

​Polygraph
Q1 Do you want to stay married? Yes
Q2. Are you willing to end this affair? Yes
Q3. Was this a sexual affair? yes
Q4. Did you have any other affairs before this one? No
Q5. Was the OH involved in any way? No
Q6. Did the OH know about the affair? Yes
Q7 Were you going to the "summer house" for the Weekend? Yes
Q8. Do you love your husband? Yes
Q9. Are you a Lesbian?No
Q10 Are you Bisexua?l No
Q11 have you had an STD test? Yes
Q12 was it negative Yes

The Tech said he so no indication of an attempted deception,but it stil possible.


----------



## tech-novelist

Deguello said:


> ​Polygraph
> Q1 Do you want to stay married? Yes
> Q2. Are you willing to end this affair? Yes
> Q3. Was this a sexual affair? yes
> Q4. Did you have any other affairs before this one? No
> Q5. Was the OH involved in any way? No
> Q6. Did the OH know about the affair? Yes
> Q7 Were you going to the "summer house" for the Weekend? Yes
> Q8. Do you love your husband? Yes
> Q9. Are you a Lesbian?No
> Q10 Are you Bisexua?l No
> Q11 have you had an STD test? Yes
> Q12 was it negative Yes
> 
> The Tech said he so no indication of an attempted deception,but it stil possible.


That all sounds good, except... if she's not a lesbian or a bisexual, why was she having sex with another woman?


----------



## imtamnew

I remember reading about a homosexual man who considered himself strictly NOT homosexual because he did not take in the other man into his body.

Him doing it to the other guy did not make him a homosexual.

People compartmentalize and rationalize.

Then what was your wife doing with the other couple. Threesome stuff?


----------



## Deguello

I thought that was odd also,so I asked her,it was the label she had a problem with. I said you are going to have to decide to be with me as my wife,if you think your bisexual,tell me,that does not give you license to cheat,you need to tell me what you need,not look elswhere


----------



## Adelais

Just curious Deguello,

Would you feel the same way about your wife if she had been meeting up with a *guy* _to just_ make out, give, and receive oral sex?

Does the fact that her AP doesn't have a penis make a difference to you?

It seems that you are not too bothered about it and I suspect the reason why is because her AP was a woman. Am I off base? Am I right?

The reason I bring this up is because from what I've read here, eventually it won't matter that her A was with a woman. It will eat at you, just as if she had been with a guy.


----------



## Deguello

I thought that was odd also,so I asked her,it was the label she had a problem with. I said you are going to have to decide to be with me as my wife,if you think your bisexual,tell me,that does not give you license to cheat,you need to tell me what you need,not look elswhere


----------



## SofaKingWeToddId

Deguello said:


> ​Polygraph
> Q1 Do you want to stay married? Yes
> Q2. Are you willing to end this affair? Yes
> Q3. Was this a sexual affair? yes
> Q4. Did you have any other affairs before this one? No
> Q5. Was the OH involved in any way? No
> Q6. Did the OH know about the affair? Yes
> Q7 Were you going to the "summer house" for the Weekend? Yes
> Q8. Do you love your husband? Yes
> Q9. Are you a Lesbian?No
> Q10 Are you Bisexua?l No
> Q11 have you had an STD test? Yes
> Q12 was it negative Yes
> 
> The Tech said he so no indication of an attempted deception,but it stil possible.


Did you find an experienced examiner? 

When I went through with a poly for my wife, the very experienced examiner said he would only let me ask up to four questions. He said that any additional would reduce the accuracy of the test. 

Were your 12 questions asked at one sitting?


----------



## Deguello

"Not Bothered" is not accurate,Cheating is cheating,gender is not an issue,the fact that she cheated at all is the issue,it os possible to be Bisexual and live in a monogamous heterosexual relationship,but it does have to be Out in the open. 
Being a Lesbian is a whole different thing.
It is about trust, openness and transparency without that no relationship will work.
She could be Bi-Curious,but that is still not an excuse to look elsewhere,we never discussed that and I had no idea that was a possibility I have asked her about her "sexual fantasies",she said she had none,I fulfilled her one fantasy,she wanted an entire weekend,every thing planned out.She got that. All I wanted was a BJ,I didn't get that either.


----------



## Deguello

When I got home from work yesterday,my wife.was in tears,the OW sent her an email she begged my wife to call her,or email her back she needed to talk to her.could.she come to her house, she had been "stuck at her house for too ,long.she even called the burner phone,I know this because her burner pnone goes with me.it.rang.but I didn't pick it ip. All I said was" what do you want more,me or her?" It is your choice. Is her H going to leave her or is she going to leave him?I will handle your AP if you choose to stay or you can sign the divorce papers NOW and leave.just remember how many people will be hurt if you leave,You are done hurting me!


----------



## giddiot

Deguello said:


> When I got home from work yesterday,my wife.was in tears,the OW sent her an email she begged my wife to call her,or email her back she needed to talk to her.could.she come to her house, she had been "stuck at her house for too ,long.she even called the burner phone,I know this because her burner pnone goes with me.it.rang.but I didn't pick it ip. All I said was" what do you want more,me or her?" It is your choice. Is her H going to leave her or is she going to leave him?I will handle your AP if you choose to stay or you can sign the divorce papers NOW and leave.just remember how many people will be hurt if you leave,You are done hurting me!


And what was her response?


----------



## Deguello

Well
she did not leave,she wants to work it out, I called the OH and said there will be NO contact nothing, My wife wants to work this out, Please get control of your wife,I really hope you can do the same. No CONTACt
Means NO CONTACT.


----------



## giddiot

Deguello said:


> Well
> she did not leave,she wants to work it out, I called the OH and said there will be NO contact nothing, My wife wants to work this out, Please get control of your wife,I really hope you can do the same. No CONTACt
> Means NO CONTACT.


Thats good.


----------



## just got it 55

Deguello said:


> Well
> she did not leave,she wants to work it out, I called the OH and said there will be NO contact nothing, My wife wants to work this out, Please get control of your wife,I really hope you can do the same. No CONTACt
> Means NO CONTACT.


Now just block the number If their is more contact file a RO on them without warning.

Do not engage again Marine.

55


----------



## bfree

just got it 55 said:


> Now just block the number If their is more contact file a RO on them without warning.
> 
> Do not engage again Marine.
> 
> 55


Actually his wife should get the RO. It would be a good step toward showing she's serious about their marriage.


----------



## Blondilocks

It's beginning to sound like the OW used Mrs. D as a diversion from the OW's marriage. 'She's been stuck at the house too long' - come over and entertain me. It does not sound like a love affair. Is the OW older than your wife?


----------



## bandit.45

Why do I predict a Thelma and Louise breakout happening in the near future?


----------



## Blondilocks

bandit.45 said:


> Why do I predict a Thelma and Louise breakout happening in the near future?


Because you are quite the drama llama.

Thelma and Louise was the most disgusting movie. Full frontal assault for an easily fixed problem.


----------



## Deguello

The OW is only a year older than WW,maybe What occurred to me is just maybe the OW was trying to turn WW over to the dark side,pun intended,Stranger things have happened,I can't see any one trying to "turn her"she wants to have control way too much.
The phone's are blocked,the lawyer has sent a NC letter,my WW actually called the lawyer to tell him what she wanted to say,we both signed off on it. the RO will be ready,if we need it,that has my WW name on it also.


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## Deguello

I've never seen that movie,and don't plan to.I do believe that WW is convinced my state of mind is very serious,I "gave" her that one,will not happen again without consequences.I think I am being generous, I could have just as easily shown her the door,and she knows it.


----------



## Marc878

After following your thread you should change your name to perserverence.

You never gave up and hung in there.

Good for you. Now finish it.


----------



## TAMAT

Degulleo,

Are you now going to expose the OW widely, children, siblings, church, facebook etc etc.

Tamat


----------



## bfree

Deguello said:


> I've never seen that movie,and don't plan to.I do believe that WW is convinced my state of mind is very serious,I "gave" her that one,will not happen again without consequences.I think I am being generous, I could have just as easily shown her the door,and she knows it.


Generous? Hell, she should be bowing down and kissing your feet every night. I seriously doubt I would have been as understanding.


----------



## bandit.45

Question for the ladies: Is it possible for two non-lesbian women to have a non-romantic, emotional affair without a sexual component? Or would it then be nothing more than a close friendship? 

I think 90% of all women are guilty of having EAs with their besties because women form such immensely strong bonds with each other, and they share secrets and feelings with each other that they would never share with their hubbies.


----------



## turnera

Yes, they can absolutely have a non-romantic affair. Many women get to the point that they truly think 'why do we need men?' And want to try it out.


----------



## Catherine602

@bandit.45 If a spouse talks about their feelings, problems and dreams with a friend more than with their partner, a non-sexual intimacy can develop. 

@Deguello I think your wife is bisexual. there is no way that a strait woman could find sexual contact with a woman enjoyable. It's important because problems may arrise if she makes friends with woman she is attracted to. The same thing may happen. You can think about this and address at some point down the road. There has to be boundaries. 

It will not be easy for her to give this woman up so you may find that she is secretly in contact with her when the heat is off. They seem to have a strong emotional attachment over many years. If she stays in contact, the emotional connection will not fade. She can't ever see her again.


----------



## Deguello

I am wondering if it is my place to do that? I really don't want to just do something out of anger that might bite me in the ass later, I am going to talk to my lawyer to see if it is even legal to do,the last thing I need now is a lawsuit.


----------



## Deguello

I agree,counseling and therapy are upcoming,I realize that this will not be easy for her or the OW,but I am not just going to stand.by and watch,
That is not how I am wired,surrender is not an option,
I do some things really well, quitting is NOTone of them.


----------



## EVG39

With all due respect what are your goals for the counseling and therapy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Deguello

I want to get some kind of closure on this event,we are getting to old for this kind of drama,at least I am.I want to try and understand my wife and stay married to her,I really take my vows seriously.is that to much to ask?


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## TAMAT

Degullo,

From your Ws answers on the polygraph it appears that the OWH knew about the affair and tolerated it. Personally I couldn't imagine keeping quiet if my W were actively in an affair and destroying the OMW life for 5 years. Since the OWH was complicit with the OW he also owes you 5 years of your life back.

You need to beat a spine into the OWH.

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

I would have loved that,however,prison does not appeal to me at all. I'm confident that he will get what is coming to him,what goes around, comes around,some one will do it to him and it won't be near as much "fun",
I have a surprise poly scheduled,in the near future for my W. She knew the last one was coming,she thinks we're going to look at a car,for and we are,this will be a "side trip"A wise man once said
"If you seek revenge,first dig two graves." Revenge is counter productive, The family "council" was productive 
There will ll more details later.
Deguello


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Does your W love you? I mean does she say it? Because she disrespected you and went out of her way to make your life miserable for 5 years. I have a hard time believing that she could do that if she loved you. So I wonder how much of her remorse and appearance of love is just shame and embarrassment at getting caught in a lesbian affair. And it was DEFINITELY a lesbian affair. The fact that she can't admit that makes me believe she has a lot of shame.

Not trying to make you feel worse - just asking obvious questions - because I wouldn't put it past her to continue to manipulate you to move past this embarrassment and get back to a comfortable life with you as a provider.


----------



## TAMAT

Degullo,

You wrote, *"If you seek revenge,first dig two graves." Revenge is counter productive, The family *

Actually I thought about that saying recently and modified it to dig 3 or more graves, make it worth your while, a kill ratio of 1:1 is not very Marine lol. 

Tamat


----------



## TAMAT

Degullo,

The real question is will she ever be sexually attracted to you again. I presume she had orgasms with this other woman and was enthusiastic about participating in their romps. How long do you plan on allowing her to mourn the loss and get back in love with you?

You are at ages where it can be difficult to determine if she really has lost all sex drive or just finds you repulsive.

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

If she finds me repulsive,she has an odd way of showing it,early Saturday morning,she woke me up with an OUTSTANDING B.J.and then jumped my bones,she has not ever ever given me a bj and swallowed or jumped my bones like she did,I'm not sure serious Lesbian's show that much enthusiasm with a man I could be wrong.
I do think she is a LD spouse,I plan to return the favor sometime soon.


----------



## Deguello

Oddly.enough most of us are not into heavy collateral damage,We are Warriors,not terrorists. We take the fight to the enemy,
not civilians.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> If she finds me repulsive,she has an odd way of showing it,early Saturday morning,she woke me up with an OUTSTANDING B.J.and then jumped my bones,*she has not ever ever given me a bj and swallowed *or jumped my bones like she did,I'm not sure serious Lesbian's show that much enthusiasm with a man I could be wrong.
> I do think she is a LD spouse,I plan to return the favor sometime soon.


Not something she ever did before, but it was OUTSTANDING? Where did she learn that? Her lesbian affair partner? Or her lesbian affair partners husband?


----------



## bfree

Ouch


----------



## Deguello

Actually that has been on my "Fantasy list"for a very long time, the fact that she made it happen unexpectedly made it that much better.I'm going to trust her just a little bit on this one,she seemed very sincere and in to it and very enthusiastic,but I'm not going to close my eyes just because she surprised me.I have to start trusting her sometime even if is just a little.I don't for a minute believe that the OH was a participant,it was just the way she said it when I asked her straight out,and she did tell me that they Her and the OW were intimate,why lie about one and not about the other.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> Actually that has been on my "Fantasy list"for a very long time, the fact that she made it happen unexpectedly made it that much better.I'm going to trust her just a little bit on this one,she seemed very sincere and in to it and very enthusiastic,but I'm not going to close my eyes just because she surprised me.I have to start trusting her sometime even if is just a little.I don't for a minute believe that the OH was a participant,it was just the way she said it when I asked her straight out,and she did tell me that they Her and the OW were intimate,*why lie about one and not about the other*.


Because for a lot of men, a lesbian affair is not the deal breaker a multiple partner of both sexes affair would be. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't be even more disgusted with her if you found out it wasn't just OW?

I don't think you've gotten the truth from her yet. And for you to say



> I have to start trusting her sometime even if is just a little.I don't for a minute believe that the OH was a participant,it was just the way she said it when I asked her straight out


after the load of **** she fed you for FIVE YEARS makes me think operation rug sweep is on.

I'm sorry that I'm apparently the only one who sees a lump under the rug, and you're free to disregard my posts just like any other poster, but I can't just see what I'm seeing and let it pass without calling out a warning.


----------



## bankshot1993

There is no question the other man knew, that's already admitted and confirmed but the question is just how complicit was he. I suspect he was encouraging his wife in the affair. I also suspect he was doing it in hopes of getting involved at some point, having his wife groom your wife so to speak. The only question in my mind is whether they had gotten to that point yet. 

One of your poly questions should be whether a threesome with the other man was ever discussed or planned.


----------



## Deguello

bankshot1993 said:


> There is no question the other man knew, that's already admitted and confirmed but the question is just how complicit was he. I suspect he was encouraging his wife in the affair. I also suspect he was doing it in hopes of getting involved at some point, having his wife groom your wife so to speak. The only question in my mind is whether they had gotten to that point yet.
> 
> One of your poly questions should be whether a threesome with the other man was ever discussed or planned.


My WW has several "tells" that happen when her guard is down,I have asked her times if the OWH was a participants,she again said he was not present and not and did not participate,it was just the two of them undressing each other,touching,kissing. I'm guessing that the beach trip was going to be the "Final",I don’t actually know that,it is a guess.She has been more attentive lately,she has said that she loves me.I asked her if she was still attracted to the OW or even females in general,her answer was no,but I expected that.


----------



## JohnA

Hi, I get what she has done. I get there are lingering questions. I get you want to keep the marriage intact. 

I don't get how you will address the underlining issues. Hey you can impose a slow painful death if she does it again but the assumption there is she will get caught. My point is you won the war, you occupy the ground. How are you gong to win the peace. 

Finally did you talk with your daughter and MIL ?


----------



## TX-SC

I responded similarly over at your thread on SI, but I';ll post it here.

The fact that she gave you a great BJ and swallowed does not mean that she is heterosexual. The reality is that she is bisexual. Heterosexual women don't fall in love with and have an affair with another woman. Some women do indeed "experiment" but even they are to some extent bisexual, regardless of how they want to categorize themselves. The thought of touching another man's penis is repulsive to me. You probably fee the same way. My wife says that the thought of touching another vagina repulses her. That's heterosexual. We have no desire to be with someone of our own gender.

The reality is that it doesn't matter whether she cheated with a man or cheated with a woman, it's still cheating. It appears that your wife has very poor boundaries right now. She will have to learn how to set strong boundaries and stick with them. She also needs to commit to you and to your marriage. Yes, an affair partner can be hard to get over. Feelings are involved. But, she now has to cut that out completely, cold turkey, and move on.

There has to be a completely open policy moving forward. Any and all electronic devices can, and should, be monitored. She has to tell you if this woman or her husband contact her again. Again, there can be no wavering on this. And, the consequences have to be big. I would look into a post nuptial agreement if you haven't already. Check with a lawyer on this, but stipulate that if she cheats again, she loses the house and any money from you. She'll be on her own.

Lastly, she needs IC to figure out why she felt a need to stray to begin with. In reality, it was probably mostly about it being funa nd exciting, regardless of what she may TELL you. But, she needs to figure out why she wanted that extra fun and excitement while possibly losing her marriage and you forever.


----------



## Deguello

JohnA said:


> Hi, I get what she has done. I get there are lingering questions. I get you want to keep the marriage intact.
> 
> I don't get how you will address the underlining issues. Hey you can impose a slow painful death if she does it again but the assumption there is she will get caught. My point is you won the war, you occupy the ground. How are you gong to win the peace.
> 
> Finally did you talk with your daughter and MIL ?


We did have a Family Council,I unloaded on my MIL,I did not ask her how long she had been covering for my WW.I just assumed she was in on it from the beginning,this is a serious breach of trust,my first inclination was to cut you out of my life at once and never speak to you again,but you are my wife's mother,if I cut you out I stand a good chance of loosing my wife,So I'm going to take a time out from you,I will not be at family functions,get together s whatever,Your Daughter is able to come to these,But When people ask "where is Gary"You need to tell them the truth,it is on you,you lied to my face without hesitation if you don't tell the truth.I will find out about it and I will lay out the facts as I see see them,it will be better coming from you than me,I told my daughter that I was very disappointed in her,she was raised better than that.That being said, it is your mother responsibility,she convinced you to try and get my weapon from me,I still don't understand why Did you think I was going to hurt you or my self,Not likely,and you should know better than that.Just tell me the truth,that is all I have ever asked of you.


----------



## Deguello

That is what IC is for and MC.This will not bequick or painless,it is going to be long and very painful but I believe it is worth it and that is how I'll approach it.


----------



## MattMatt

I hope the family council works out.

Incidentally, I'd love to hear MIL and daughter's explanations for their egregious behaviour. 

BTW if your name really is the name you mentioned above, you might like to edit it out.


----------



## Palodyne

I agree with MattMatt, explanations to you are deserved by all involved.


----------



## Deguello

Mil "I didn't really know what she was doing" she did not tell me she was having an affair,all she asked me to do was cover for her if you called.
WW "I told you I was spending the weekend with OW,So you would know where I was in case of an emergency.what did you think was going on?
And I gave you the address and my other phone #.
Me -you knew what was going on, you buried your head in the sand.
I think. You have known for at least FIVE years,and have been lying to me the whole time.
(At this point I was so pissed off I poured my self two fingers of Scotch)
To WW Did you ask our daughter to come and get my Glock? That is a yes.or no question.
Yes I did. why? I knew you would be looking for me,I didn't want anyone hurt,how much does she know? She knew the OW and I were fooling around.she knew we were going to the summer house for the weekend.
But she did not know where that was.
( I took the dogs out,I needed air.)


----------



## JohnA

Deguello, how does your daughter view you? Does she think sometimes you go off and refuse to listen? How did your past personal issues color her view of you?


----------



## Palodyne

That must have been hard to sit and listen to. It almost seems like everyone in the family knew what WW was doing except you. You should have a long hard talk with your daughter, and she should go to IC because she obviously has weak boundaries. She should especially do so if she is married.

Your WW said she knew you would be looking for her. And she obviously knew you were going to be mad, because she didn't want you to have a gun. She already had MIL support, had already told and got acceptance from your daughter. It is obvious, when she took off to the summer house, she no longer cared if you found out. Put that together with how desperate OW is to see WW, and WW crying and worrying about OW. It doesn't seem like the affair was going to end that weekend, it gives the appearance of WW leaving you for OW.

I would be very cautious from here. One of the questions on your surprise poly, should be, "Were you leaving me for other woman."


----------



## Catherine602

Covering for her by lying to her husband is bad whether she knew her daughters motives or not. First she should have refused to participate and second she should have asked her daughter what she was up to that she needed to keep secrets. Maybe that is part of the problem. What kind of upbringing did your wife have? Was her mother permissive?

The first thing that would come to mind for most people is that she was having and affair. Instead of covering for her, as a mother it would be better for her daughter if she attempted to get her to stop and go to her husband.


----------



## Deguello

WW was raised very strictly,sex was NOT discussed,and I think that accounts for our sexual dysfunction.neither one of her parents
were "Permissive" by any stretch of the imagination,that is what I don"t get.any information she got about sex was from her friends or at school.
I think my MIL is BSing me again,I think she knew all along,but does not want to admit it,Whatever, She won't see much of me for a while.
DD understands she was wrong,and is pissed at her mom,for involving her,and realizes she should have told me what was going on.
. WW is not liking IC much at all,she says it is painful to relive the the Affair,she knows she was wrong and is very remorseful about all of the HELL she has unleashed on me and her family
All I said was "Would you rather be getting divorced instead?"that will be much harder to live with. don't you think?


----------



## Nucking Futs

ignore the preceding post, it's a troll masquerading as Amp.


----------



## just got it 55

Nucking Futs said:


> ignore the preceding post, it's a troll masquerading as Amp.


WTF WOW that's some serious infiltration

55


----------



## sidney2718

just got it 55 said:


> WTF WOW that's some serious infiltration
> 
> 55


I think it claimed to be Lenski. :|


----------



## bandit.45

TAM needs a Billy Goats Gruff Brigade.


----------



## Thor

I think he/she/it is back on another thread, too. Reported. I believe the OP in that thread also lives under bridges but so far there's nothing reportable as a violation of rules. It is the beginning of spring break season.


----------



## Palodyne

I agree, your MIL knew what was going on. And should be viewed as an enemy of your marriage. As far as your daughter is concerned. Don't buy into the crap that she is pissed that mom involving her. She is an adult! When she learned that her mother was in an adulterous, lesbian affair, she should have immediately alerted you. Her complicity is the reason she needs IC. She has weak boundaries!

You say WW hates IC because it makes her relive her affair, and it is painful because of the hell she unleashed on you and the family. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!!!! She hates IC because it makes her face what she has done to you and her family and she doesn't want to face the consequences!


----------



## EVG39

I wonder is she hates IC because the counselor is making her face the truth about her sexual orientation? Straight women don't have a forty year love affair with other women after all.


----------



## Chaparral

I don't believe her timeline. I think the sex started when she started cutting back on you and acting distant.


----------



## TAMAT

Degullo,

Wow this statement shows your WW has no idea what she has done or where she is. 

*. WW is not liking IC much at all,she says it is painful to relive the the Affair,she knows she was wrong and is very remorseful about all of the HELL she has unleashed on me and her family*

She is not reliving the affair, the affair is still very alive, no only does it take a minimum of 2 years for the betrayed to recover, but it takes at least that long for the wayward spouse as well. 

The affair will slowly die if your WW works at it, but might never die for the OW, if OWH does not force her to recover. The OW will forever be a threat to your marriage. 

Tamat


----------



## Deguello

I also believe that the sex started at least five years ago also,this is going to be hard on on her.(pardon the Pun)but she brought it on herself. All she had to do was TALK to me,instead she tried to cover it up and make me think I was nuts.


----------



## Deguello

That is what is weird forty +years and I never ever seen a glimmer of Bi or lesbian behavior.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

You mentioned a PA a while back. Coukd W have seen erotic female-female porn during that period and become intrigued?


----------



## Deguello

It is possible,but knowing how she feels about porn,I would be very surprised at her tolerating any kind of porn,I have been wrong before.


----------



## Deguello

If she was watching lesbian porn,wouldn't that make her more 
Bi-curious than lesbian, I'm just asking I know very little about alternative lifestyles.I would think I would have seen some indication but then I have NO idea what I would be looking for.I may have mentioned that before,but I don’t recall anything overt,that would indicate that.


----------



## TX-SC

How long did this affair last and how physical was it?


----------



## Palodyne

Deguello, I don't think porn had anything to do with your wife's problem. I read a post here recently, from a male poster, that found his once faithful, heterosexual wife, engaged in an affair with a woman. Like you, he asked her if she considered herself to be lesbian or bisexual. She said she did not. She told him she wasn't attracted to women at all. She said it was just this one particular woman that she was attracted to.

So here's what I think. And bear in mind, I am by no means an expert in female sexuality. I think from back in high school, OW has wanted your WW. She seduced your, then teen WW, into lesbian activities. But after she matured and moved on, she met, fell in love with, and married you. Built a life, had a family, and was happy. Then through a stroke of bad luck, met back up with OW threw Facebook. She decided to be friends with her. But the old hold, and attraction was still there. So after a while, she weakened to the will of her former lover, and went back into a lesbian relationship.

I'm by no means excusing her actions. She should have confided in you immediately when her AP started to draw her back in. Her actions, especially involving your daughter and her mother are unbelievably disturbing. And she needs to be held accountable. All I am saying, is from what I have read. It may be possible for a woman to feel she is heterosexual, because she is only sexually weak to one particular woman.


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## Deguello

The nearest I can come is 2010,that is when our sex life went to hell,I have no idea how physical it went. all I know is our sex life dropped 80% Plus.that is as close as I can get.


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## Deguello

Palodyne said:


> Deguello, I don't think porn had anything to do with your wife's problem. I read a post here recently, from a male poster, that found his once faithful, heterosexual wife, engaged in an affair with a woman. Like you, he asked her if she considered herself to be lesbian or bisexual. She said she did not. She told him she wasn't attracted to women at all. She said it was just this one particular woman that she was attracted to.
> 
> So here's what I think. And bear in mind, I am by no means an expert in female sexuality. I think from back in high school, OW has wanted your WW. She seduced your, then teen WW, into lesbian activities. But after she matured and moved on, she met, fell in love with, and married you. Built a life, had a family, and was happy. Then through a stroke of bad luck, met back up with OW threw Facebook. She decided to be friends with her. But the old hold, and attraction was still there. So after a while, she weakened to the will of her former lover, and went back into a lesbian relationship.
> 
> I'm by no means excusing her actions. She should have confided in you immediately when her AP started to draw her back in. Her actions, especially involving your daughter and her mother are unbelievably disturbing. And she needs to be held accountable. All I am saying, is from what I have read. It may be possible for a woman to feel she is heterosexual, because she is only sexually weak to one particular woman.


I think that would explain why she doesn't want me to get to know the OW or the OWH,,because he is complicit in the affair. And she had no idea how I would react, I have never shown ANY homophobic attitude,my half brother is Gay.
I am about to spring a surprise POLY on her.because I don't feel like the first one was accurate because she knew it was going to happen.
She has been "toeing the line" as far as I can tell, random checks have been negative.


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## syhoybenden

Good day. So, how's it going, eh?


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## Deguello

All things considered,I'm doing ok, we are working it out. I don't have the time to watch her 24/7 so rebuilding trust is her responsibility.
So far as I can tell she is keeping her end of the agreement,Gps on her phone stays on and there is one in her new wheels.(new to her)
Random electronic inspection,and random POLY anytime I feel like it. IC is painful for both of us, the word "NO" is no longer in her vocabulary,this is already painful but I knew that. Thanks for asking


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## Palodyne

Hey Dequello, I hope thing's are continuing in a positive manner. Have you done the surprise poly yet?


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## Palodyne

Brother I dearly hope your lack of response is a good thing. I hope she is working tirelessly to rebuild trust in your marriage. I wish you all the best in the world.


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## Deguello

Palodyne said:


> Hey Dequello, I hope thing's are continuing in a positive manner. Have you done the surprise poly yet?


The surprise poly really did not reveal anything I did not already know,however she slipped up I think,in couple counseling, she was asked "what was the big deal about not getting to know the other spouse" Her response was "He is a computer genius and was never in the military,you would have nothing to talk about" Does that sound like she has never met him? I thought it was an odd response for some who had never met. The ow has been driving by the house,she bolted when I followed her down my street,so I suspect it was not the first time.
WW denies knowing anything about it,I am suspicious.


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## Nucking Futs

Deguello said:


> The surprise poly really did not reveal anything I did not already know,however she slipped up I think,in couple counseling, she was asked "what was the big deal about not getting to know the other spouse" Her response was "He is a computer genius and was never in the military,you would have nothing to talk about" Does that sound like she has never met him? * I thought it was an odd response for some who had never met. The ow has been driving by the house,she bolted when I followed her down my street,so I suspect it was not the first time.
> WW denies knowing anything about it,I am suspicious.*


Couple of things to cover with the next surprise poly. Also ask if there's been any contact of any kind with either of them since the NC went out.


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## Palodyne

It is possible they met. But WW and OW were lovers for many years. It is possible they discussed their husbands to each other. She may have learned about him that way. OW seems to possessive of your wife to share her with anyone.

As for her driving by your house. OW appears to be hell bent on getting your wife back. I would hide VAR's in the living room, if OW comes to your house while your out, you will know it. If your wife truly knows nothing about it, then I would document OW creepy activity and begin to build a stalking case against her. In most states you will do time if convicted of stalking. 

I know you don't want to have to police you wife by hiding VAR's in your home and watching her. But if she truly doesn't know about OW driving by and watching her, and if your WW is truly trying, you need to keep OW away from your wife till she has had enough time and therapy to build strong boundaries to resist OW. On the other hand if the VAR's confirm they are in contact again, then you can move to divorce. But I sincerely hope that is not the case.


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## syhoybenden

Heck of a way to live, when you can't trust the person who was supposed to have your back behind your back.


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## TX-SC

Why any person would choose to live this way is beyond my comprehension. It seems that your trust in your wife is fully destroyed, and rightfully so. How long can you keep monitoring her?


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## TheTruthHurts

TX-SC said:


> Why any person would choose to live this way is beyond my comprehension. It seems that your trust in your wife is fully destroyed, and rightfully so. How long can you keep monitoring her?


40 years makes you think long and hard about throwing away the baby with the bath water. I felt the same way at the start of this thread but heard what D said and saw what wants to keep.

30+ for me all good but I get it when you are so together - there are good and not do good years and the good have to outweigh the bad.

Lonely Husband also convinced me a salvage operation can be well worth it.

And remember... at this point the real "problem" has been identified and its someone who knew W before D - and this isn't a serial cheating issue... it's a single problem person who is identified. Plus she has a H

So I do think since he's in it this far, if makes sense to focus on the OW and see if isolating her might be a big part of the cure.

I suspect it's uncommon for a WW to switch-hit for a single person and not self-identify as lesbian. So I think this truly is an isolated marital risk.

That doesn't help with the betrayal, lying, eland damage but D is working through that


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## Deguello

The relationship. Is worth saving, I never thought it was going to be "EASY".I believe my WW is being truthful when she said she knew nothing about the OW's low pass by our house I have a plan to put a speed bump in her way.I kind of thought this might happen,so I made some plans. Best not disclosed here. Sorry.


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## Palodyne

I agree. I don't think your wife knows about OW cruising the house. I thought about it earlier and it didn't add up. If your wife knew, then OW would know when to come by your place when you were not there. OW comes off like a love sick teenager. Driving by your house hoping to catch a glimpse of your wife.

You don't have to apologize here. We all understand that when it comes to family it's always best to keep your cards close to the vest.


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## Catherine602

Can you tell her husband that she is driving by and get a retraining order? Go to the police and let them know she is stalking. Can you reveal to people that she knows and would not want to know that she crazy that she is a stalker.


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## dash74

If ow husband is a computer guy and if you think some shady stuff is going on still ask a mod to put this in private D


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## Nucking Futs

Catherine602 said:


> Can you tell her husband that she is driving by and get a retraining order? Go to the police and let them know she is stalking. Can you reveal to people that she knows and would not want to know that she crazy that she is a stalker.


Better yet, have your wife get a restraining order.


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## Deguello

Catherine602 said:


> Can you tell her husband that she is driving by and get a retraining order? Go to the police and let them know she is stalking. Can you reveal to people that she knows and would not want to know that she crazy that she is a stalker.


My WW is going to get the TRO,she really does NOT want me to deal with it,I have enough INTEL to really embarrass the OW, Mr. Nice guy has left the building,I do not want to do that IF I don't have to. I reminded her that NC is still in effect,she understood.


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## Catherine602

Are you taking this too lightly? Is it that your wife is protecting you or the OW? It's outrageous that this woman has the nerve to skulk around your home after being told she is no longer wanted. 

She seems creepy in addition to having poor judgement and boundaries. She needs to learn a lesson now or the brazenness will only escalate. 

I think you should come down hard, with every possible weapon at you disposal now, before she gets even bolder. You and your wife should do it. If your wife has no stomach for it then she cares more about the creep OW than she does her husband.


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## Deguello

I don’t think I'm taking it "lightly" at all but I also don’t need to make any mistakes.the TRO is just the first step,I have enough information to make life interesting for her,I am not sure about talking to the OW's H,he is complicit in this whole thing. I just want to very careful.I can only be sure she drove by once,simply because I was behind her. Not enough to go on just yet.


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## Deguello

She is talking about"renewing our vows," I am hesitant because the last time was Total F**king disaster,and accomplished nothing,
Just a really bad feeling about it.


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## Tron

DON"T DO IT!

She cheats on you unabashedly for several years and 3 months later wants to renew vows.

"No thanks. Your past vows quite clearly meant very little to you. You certainly didn't keep those so no need to waste your breath now. 

Your time would be better spent cleaning your $hit up and being thankful I haven't given your a$$ the boot"


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## turnera

"Wife, if you can make it three full years without cheating on me, then I'll consider renewing vows in 2019."


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## TheTruthHurts

Well the old ones wore out so maybe she needs new ones.


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## Catherine602

Deguello said:


> She is talking about"renewing our vows," I am hesitant because the last time was Total F**king disaster,and accomplished nothing,
> Just a really bad feeling about it.


WTF Wasn't it a few weeks ago that the OW was cruising by your house? What is a vow renewal going to do for you? You are the one whose needs come first in this recovery not her need for a party. 

I don't think your wife wants to renew vows so much as hurry the process along like magic. Renewing vows won't strengthen the marriage after cheating, only time and hard work will do that. 

She may want to escape into planning a wedding when she needs to spend time atoning for the damage she has done. This is not the appropriate time for a celebration. 

Besides, you are the one who should decide when you want to renew your vow to her. You are still recovering from a shock that will take you years. 

Don't do it. She will disappear into fantasyland filled with catering halls, menus, cakes, wedding dresses and bridesmaids.  Much too busy to take care of you. 

Tell her that you will accept a private mini celebration every weekend. She can show you how much she appreciates having such a wonderful, loving and forgiving husband. She is truly blessed.


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## affaircoach

Do you think that your wife may be having an affair with this woman? I know this may sound crazy but the fact that she is defensive when asked a few simple questions makes me wonder what might else be going on? Just a thought.


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## Nucking Futs

affaircoach said:


> Do you think that your wife may be having an affair with this woman? I know this may sound crazy but the fact that she is defensive when asked a few simple questions makes me wonder what might else be going on? Just a thought.


Might want to read a little more of the thread.


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## Marc878

affaircoach said:


> Do you think that your wife may be having an affair with this woman? I know this may sound crazy but the fact that she is defensive when asked a few simple questions makes me wonder what might else be going on? Just a thought.


:grin2: good one, ha!!!!


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## Catherine602

@Deguello how are you doing?


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## Palodyne

Deguello said:


> She is talking about"renewing our vows," I am hesitant because the last time was Total F**king disaster,and accomplished nothing,
> Just a really bad feeling about it.


 Well If you have a bad feeling about it, then tell her your not ready for that yet. Don't let yourself be pushed into anything your not comfortable with.

It is, of course, obvious why you feel it accomplished nothing. Because she went on to cheat. So, in your reality, she broke two sets of vows. You should remind her of this as a primary reason why you are hesitant to do it again. And untill you have seen her make true, heartfelt amends, for what she did to her mother, daughter and to you, and has proven that this other woman is completely out of her mind and heart, so the vows she proclaims before you are more than just empty words, you want to wait.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you should give her reasons for how you feel, but also goals she can reach to help you heal and move forward. She has to do the hard work and heavy lifting because she is the one that injured the marriage. However, if R is your goal she can't be made to feel hopeless.


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## MattMatt

Because renewing the vows will make her feel all shiny and new! "And... cue Madonna!" 

"Like a virgin, touched for the very first time! Like a..."

Yeah. Just like that. And she forgives herself. Nice! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palodyne

Hey brother, I don't know if you still check in every now and again, but I hope everything is going well with and your wife. Is everything still going well?


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## Deguello

Deguello 
checking in,we are mending in a lot of ways,still working on the full story,but we are have.good
Progress But I am Back,


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## MattMatt

@Deguello it is is good to see you back on TAM.

How are things going between you both?


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## Deguello

We are doing much better,there are still some issues about the A,she has passed both.surprise polygraph.s
I get bits of info from time to time, I got a call from the other hubby,I did not let him get started I just shut him down,I do not want to be his "friend" I can only guess where that will go,NO THANKS.I was moderatly surprised,after our last "chat".I thought I put that dog down!!!!


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## Palodyne

Hey, Deguello, it is great to hear from you again, and also great to hear that things with your wife are moving forward in a positive manner. You are completely correct to cut the AP's husband out, you don't his crap in your life. Stay strong and focused, and we all wish you marital success moving forward.


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## jlg07

Deguello said:


> We are doing much better,there are still some issues about the A,she has passed both.surprise polygraph.s
> I get bits of info from time to time, I got a call from the other hubby,I did not let him get started I just shut him down,I do not want to be his "friend" I can only guess where that will go,NO THANKS.I was moderatly surprised,after our last "chat".I thought I put that dog down!!!!


Just curious -- what do you mean you are getting "bits of info" -- do you think you still don't have the full story of the affair? Curious why the OWH keeps calling -- are you sure there is NC still? I hope your IC/MC are really helping you both heal...


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