# My marriage has taken away the taste of peanut butter



## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Hi folks,

I’ve been wanting to join in and offer my fair share of advice and opinions on here since I have been finding some solace in reading many of the threads together with the help that’s been offered. However, I have been so confused about my own situation that I don’t even know where to begin.

My marriage is on the rocks – no question; it doesn’t seem like it’s going rise above the surface and recover but I truly don’t know and I don’t know what to do. I used to feel that I had finally been blessed with the perfect life partner and we did have the kind of relationship that made other couples come to us for advice, looking at us as the perfect couple. Not because we didn’t have any hiccups in our relationship, but because we had so many and had gone through so many difficult situations and came out on top, stronger and closer.

Well, now that’s all a thing of the past when I got the “I don’t love you anymore” speech the other month. What’s worse is that as I’ve thought about the situation more and more, I have to admit it comes down to me committing the most basic relationship killers. It became a co-dependent relationship and I let life’s troubles get on top of me instead of the other way around.

I started to write down the events as they progressed and my feelings with the intention of sharing my experience and seeking support on the forum whilst also offering my story as either a lesson in some way, regardless of the outcome of my personal situation. However, the post would have been ridiculously long and I’ll just offer up a summary of what’s happened and perhaps build on that as necessary throughout the thread.

Got engaged and lived together for a decade, tied the knot on our anniversary, bought a house together a year or so later and then started trying for a family.. marital bliss! I felt untouchable at times - as though nothing could get me down. Oh, how wrong I was! Never underestimate self-sabbotage when it is veiled as selfless support. In order to achieve financial stability and help my wife start her own business I worked hard to take care of all the finances at the expense of all myself. I gave up all hobbies and interests; I gave up prospects of a career and succumbed to staying a secure but energy-zapping and demoralising job for the sake of “security” hoping that success will just eventually happen if I persevere. Nope. Looking back, I became a shell of myself, flopping on the sofa after work and just “being” in a relationship rather than “doing” anything for it. Entitlement issues, complacency, lack of self-respect, a constant negative attitude about everything. Wow.. just writing that down and looking at my behaviour objectively it’s no wonder that my wife feels I was not supportive. 

Anyhow, add to that a really poor start to the year with all sorts of financial (and otherwise) crises to deal with as well as a miscarriage and there’s a recipe for the brew of emotional detachment that occurred leading to the “I don’t love you” conversation.

That conversation was a very difficult but dignified discussion. We both agreed with one another about the state of things and I was able to look at it objectively and have a level of empathy with my wife. After that we continued and I tried to show my affection, to display my feelings as I had when I was first dating her, to really try to communicate and connect emotionally. There was a new found honesty in the relationship (which was really brutal at times as you can imagine). There were moments of magic where we shared deep moments of connection even to the point of sharing the same dreams on a few occasions! Add to that a renewed, raw and frankly, amazing physical intimacy.. you’d think that the rebuilding of a stronger and altogether better relationship was in progress but outside of these wonderful moments, most of the time my wife would emotionally shut down towards me and demand space. Space and time for oneself is something that I have ALWAYS respected in this relationship but this time it felt different. Entire days of needing space and a strong barrier if I intruded or requested time together. So, regrettably, I started to panic a bit and display my weaknesses. 

I really wish I hadn’t – I showed vulnerability which would have looked like neediness and desperation; I reacted to her mood swings with defensiveness and pointless arguing on a couple of occasions. That’s when I realised that I was still behaving in a co-dependent manner (with the “hot” behaviours on the thermostat analogy). Although I had made some personal progress in reclaiming some of my passion in life and working on my confidence and self-respect, I was still hurting and my outbursts of emotional instability were damaging any chance of rebuilding my marriage. So I initiated no-contact and moved out temporarily to give us both space, leaving it on good terms with all of the good moments that I described above.

It’s not a strict NC but we’re respecting each other’s space. It’s not been long but I had to pick up some essentials and we ended up talking. There were smiles and laughter but some hard hitting truths. My wife’s happy on her own and not missing me, full of positivity and wanting to move on in life. Although it feels as though she’s checked out of this marriage already she doesn’t believe in making a decision before she knows for certain there are no feelings to work on. Right now she understands that because of the way it’s been recently, she has shut down her emotions in an effort to protect her feelings from hurt and all loving emotions for me have gone in the process. She believes that until she goes through self-discovery, gaining self-respect and healing she can’t open up to regain any trust in me and when she does get to the point where she wants to be in life (emotionally), she’s unsure if she’ll ever have feelings for me. Meanwhile I have a new job opportunity that will take me away most of the time and will mean relocating. Yeah.. *sigh*

I’ll end my story there for now because I really haven’t got a clue what to do. I want to do the right thing and I do love my wife more than I could ever but in words or any other form of artistic expression; I want to say that I love and respect her enough to let her go if she was truly happy without me.. but I just think that we’re both on a path of personal development and we are both growing as individuals – to work on the relationship, however hard and however long it takes, would just seem to lead to a marriage worth keeping for life. Given how great this relationship used to be, I’d want to see it work and look back on this period as a time where we made our marriage the best rather than looking back and realising we both grew but we grew apart.

Sorry to waffle on. Please, if you can offer perspective or advice, I’d welcome anything. Really need to share at the moment.. feeling confused and lost and alone.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Raven,

You seem to have a good idea already with what happened in your marriage... life... that's what happened. Problem is, you didn't see it happen at the appropriate time. Join the club buddie.

From what you have written, I dare to assume you have done some serious reading on the subject, so you know already what you are supposed to do in a situation like this. If not, people here will be happy to supply you a reading list.

What I don't understand, however, is why exactly you moved out. Is the house hers and hers alone?? If not, bad move bro... I would seriously consider to move back in.

That combined with your new job would still give her the space she needs but she could then also witness the development of the new you...

If you don't, well do I have to draw it out? If you don't break down in the process, she and you will grow seriously independent, OM and/or other woman will present themselves and the rest is history. Years from now she may realise she made the wrong move but by then you probably will have moved on...


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

EasyPartner said:


> Raven,
> What I don't understand, however, is why exactly you moved out. Is the house hers and hers alone?? If not, bad move bro... I would seriously consider to move back in.


You're probably right but the reasoning was this: I am the sole breadwinner at the moment and I pay for everything whilst she is at home trying to get her business going. I even cover all of her business bills. The mortgage is in both our names. 

I decided that space between us was important for the moment and that I seemed to have the only way of leaving. I have friends and family to put me up and I have my own car etc. She has none of those options and she runs her business from our home so the alternative would have been a case of kicking her on to the street and not allowing her to work on the business. Something she'd flat out refuse to do.

It was only meant to be for a fortnight but now she's wanting more. Truth is, any longer would put a strain on my finances so I am not keen to say yes (even though I may already have consented). I certainly will not accept any longer than an extra week. Although I may be used to living out of a suitcase with my job, I shouldn't have to live like this when I have access to my own house. Another personal sacrifice that may be a step too far.

I have read some material but I am still in a state of confusion over what to do. I've read No More Mr.. and 5 languages of love together with lots of articles and blogs such as Mark Manson's. However, I love reading and any suggested reading material that anyone thinks would help would be greatly beneficial. Money's tight though so I can't go out and sign up to things like Calle Zorro's series etc.

One thing I'll mention that came up in the last conversation I had with her. She understands the reasoning for the shut down in her emotions - fear of abandonment. She's felt at times that I have been prepared to walk away from the relationship rather than stay and fix things (even though I have demonstrated otherwise throughout our relationship). I'm truly ashamed to say that I do recall using the threat of walking out when an argument got heated and it was a purely childish threat. Urgh! BTW - never, ever, ever use that. As I'm starting to learn, unless you truly mean to walk out on your partner never threaten - the damage may be irreparable.

So before there are any chance of feelings on her part, she says that she needs to develop trust in me. She doesn't trust me in that she doesn't trust I wouldn't stick by her and support her when things got tough. However, things have been tough before - very, very tough and it has sometimes been her fault but I stuck by her..

What to do.. 

Yes, any suggestions for reading and any advice most welcome!

Thank you EasyPartner for your help and perspective.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

intheory said:


> @Kvothe
> Maybe your wife would labor on independently if she had a terminal disease; but I really doubt it.


Thanks InTheory. Interesting way to look at it. I'm inclined to agree with certain "symptoms" of co-dependency that are seemingly good, but they really come from a neediness that isn't healthy. It's like you said, the love and support I give my wife shouldn't depend on the state of her well being, and in the past it didn't.

Believe it or not, she would have been the sort of person to labour on independently with a terminal illness on her own in the primacy of our relationship. In fact, something like that did happen (she developed a debilitating illness that completely changed turned both of our lives upside down but we got through it).

She used to be fiercely independent and have a tenacity in her approach to life, which is one of the major reasons I fell madly in love with her. However, she confessed to changing and becoming dependent on me recently and it's not something she is happy with.

I suppose the good news is she is working on that for herself by going to counselling and adopting a healthy lifestyle.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Raven,
Try Divorce Busting by Michelle Weiner-Davis and/or ILYB... by Andrew Marshall.

I don't get it though... her biggest fear is abandonment... so what do you do? You leave. ??Are you on a punishing spree??

Then again, she doesn't want you to move back in :scratchhead:

Are you sure there's no OM behind the curtains? Or is it just retaliation for you leaving?


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

I know.. confused.com!

The abandonment issue only came out in a discussion after I'd moved out. I had to pick up essentials from home the other day and what was supposed to be a five minute visit to collect things turned into an afternoon discussion that ended with a smile and a hug. That's when she described how she reasoned the emotional shut down - as a fear that I'd leave. Yes, it's ironic. 

She requested more time because she is enjoying her own company and not missing me. Although, expressing anxiety at the thought of seeing me after only a week and saying that it's felt like we've been apart for years rather than days..

I know there's no one else physically, but emotionally I'm not entirely certain. Fairly certain, but not 101% There's a definite desire to move on to new life/new partner, but she's not making the decision to leave until she's completely sure of her feelings. At the moment she is working on building up self-esteem and overcoming issues with self-image, self-worth etc.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

you pay for everything and leave.even paying for her business!

Hmmmm, shes playing you like a fiddle!

put your foot down and say either counseling and start working on things or I'm filing. by the way I'm moving back into my house. then consult a lawyer on the side and know what your up against.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Go back home, now. Space will not make anything better. You are just avoiding the unknown. You seem to want your marriage to work. How about making the partnership work? 

How long has this business been in the growing stage, if there is growth. Is it a wise enterprise capable of profit? How much do you know about the market she is trying to crack and the inflow and out flow of money?

I ask about the business because it may be a bigger source of stress than you realize. Also, you are sinking a lot into it without apparently much info. If she is insulted that you want an active role then I would be inclined to withdraw active financing. 

Sounds mean? No, being too nice and giving is a recipe for doormat status. You are providing everything and you are the one sleeping in a strange place. Why is that? 

How much respect do you have for yourself, how self protective are you? Read some book having to do with marital partnership and reciprocal giving. 

She does not love you but accepts your financing. If she is planning on a life alone, so should you. Review the change in financial circumstances with her. 

She may need to get a job ASAP. It's ok to support a dream if its a mutual one where you appreciate each others roles in the success or failure. 

Go back to your house. Deal with your wife on reasonable terms. Tell her its a partnership not an monarchy. You both have equal rights to profits and the loses. 

BTW is there a possibility of a 3rd person?


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

I know.. confused.com!

The abandonment issue only came out in a discussion after I'd moved out. I had to pick up essentials from home the other day and what was supposed to be a five minute visit to collect things turned into an afternoon discussion that ended with a smile and a hug. That's when she described how she reasoned the emotional shut down - as a fear that I'd leave. Yes, it's ironic. 

She requested more time because she is enjoying her own company and not missing me. Although, expressing anxiety at the thought of seeing me after only a week and saying that it's felt like we've been apart for years rather than days..

I know there's no one else physically, but emotionally I'm not entirely certain. Fairly certain, but not 101% There's a definite desire to move on to new life/new partner, but she's not making the decision to leave until she's completely sure of her feelings. At the moment she is working on building up self-esteem and overcoming issues with self-image, self-worth etc.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> She used to be fiercely independent and have a tenacity in her approach to life, which is one of the major reasons I fell madly in love with her. However, she confessed to changing and becoming dependent on me recently and it's not something she is happy with.
> 
> I suppose the good news is she is working on that for herself by going to counselling and adopting a healthy lifestyle.


Another piece of good news: 

You can help her recover that fiercely independent part of herself that she thinks she's missing by letting her pay her own bills. In doing so, she *will* be reminded of reasons to appreciate and honor those feelings that she *does* have for you. 

Right now, you're paying bills for a woman who doesn't love you and doesn't want you. Seriously? I'm a woman and I can assure you that I would NOT see you as a strong, competent guy to admire if I could pull this on you.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> She may need to get a job ASAP. It's ok to support a dream if its a mutual one where you appreciate each others roles in the success or failure.


All valid points in your post and much appreciated. There is a vital piece of information I may have omitted. I'm paying for everything at the moment, but a couple of weeks ago I realised the doormat status and sought to do something about it. I requested her to get a job asap to pay her own bills and meanwhile I would only cover the bare essentials. We reached a mutual agreement on this and I have seen her actively pursuing employment and putting to rest non-essential business outgoings. To cease paying any of her bills would be akin to pulling the plug on her career right now and I know I'd resent that if I was promised help and was supported. She did do the same for me whilst I studied at uni for my first degree.

It has always been an agreement that I would get the money back either through the business once it starts becoming profitable or by paying me back once she's earning through employment again. Either way, this was agreed regardless of the state of the relationship.



KathyBatesel said:


> Another piece of good news:
> You can help her recover that fiercely independent part of herself that she thinks she's missing by letting her pay her own bills. In doing so, she *will* be reminded of reasons to appreciate and honor those feelings that she *does* have for you.


Here's hoping  I'll be discussing the finances with her later this week and will be reiterating the plan to withdraw financial support as soon as possible.

I note that a lot of the problems occurred when the business starting failing and I feel that's it's only within the past few weeks or so that I'm starting to regroup and gain some self-respect - definitely something I have lacked for a while now.

I'm not sure whether I showed it subconsciously but I realised this week that I'm holding quite a bit of resentment over the fact I've been paying for her business and instead of stepping it up when things got tough, she used the time to escape the difficulties with daydreams and fantasies about an alternate life (and an alternate guy apparently). That realisation, for me, was the punch in the groin while I was down.

Regarding a 3rd party - no. I seriously doubt it. But the desire for someone else was expressed; no-one specific. However, as I thought about all the qualities she described in a man she wanted to be with, it sounded a lot like the guy I used to be - just a more successful and confident version. I just think she looks at me and sees all the worst characteristics from the worst time in my life and there's no acceptance that I could be the type of person she's wanting.. but then there are times she looks over at me adoringly and initiates physical intimacy. :scratchhead:


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Sorry, but "I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You" is code for "I have a boyfriend." Just go read in the Coping With Infidelity threads and see how many people there were told the EXACT same thing. It may open your eyes.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I love peanut butter


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> put your foot down and say either counseling and start working on things or I'm filing. by the way I'm moving back into my house. then consult a lawyer on the side and know what your up against.


She is a lawyer and ruddy good when it comes to a jolly argument.

Not so long ago we had a great week together followed by a week of such emotional distance, I thought I was perhaps just an annoying poltergeist in the house. So I started a discussion in the morning with a question about her true feelings for me and posed the question whether we should seriously start considering D if there were zero feelings. Rather than a discussion, I feel it was taken personally like I was threatening her with D when this was the one time (out of two times) I'd mentioned it where I was actually being genuine. Hence my reason to believe the abandonment issues.. I believe it, just don't understand it.

We are both on board with MC but can't afford it right now, but I can put the money I save not paying for the business towards this. MC is something I'm a little dubious about though because I've heard mixed reviews.
For some I've heard it saved couples on the brink when they both really wanted it to work. However, I've heard that if one party has checked out and is ready to move on (as it would seem my wife has) then it can just validate their feelings and put the final nail in the coffin.

So I don't know.. any advice or experience in this regard? Would MC be the best option in this situation or is there more to it than that?


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

karole said:


> Sorry, but "I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You" is code for "I have a boyfriend." Just go read in the Coping With Infidelity threads and see how many people there were told the EXACT same thing. It may open your eyes.


I didn't even get the "I love you but..", it was just I don't know/don't feel anything, but I see your point.

My confidence in there not being an EM is there's no evidence for one (I've looked). Just daydreams and fantasies.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> I love peanut butter


Yup! So did Charlie Brown  

For any younger readers not quite getting the title of my thread:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> I know.. confused.com!
> 
> The abandonment issue only came out in a discussion after I'd moved out. I had to pick up essentials from home the other day and what was supposed to be a five minute visit to collect things turned into an afternoon discussion that ended with a smile and a hug. That's when she described how she reasoned the emotional shut down - as a fear that I'd leave. Yes, it's ironic.
> 
> ...


What about you? Why are you expected to wait around. let me ask it this way, why do you think she has the right of refusal. 

Take time to think, it will take you time to take control of your life since it's new. I don't think that you should ever abdicate the control of your life to someone else, even a spouse. 

My marriage is very good at present. I am fully committed to my family and spouse but, the possibility that one or the other of us may exit, never escapes me.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

> What about you? Why are you expected to wait around. let me ask it this way, why do you think she has the right of refusal.


Good question. I don't think I can be expected to wait around and I've said as much. From the start of this mess I said that either one of us could end it but we should both be certain it is the right thing to do. As of this moment, I don't believe giving up on this relationship and divorcing is the right thing to do but I'm still unsure about a lot of things regarding our marriage. When there are conflicting emotions and uncertainty and there's no evidence of an affair, giving up on all we had accomplished together would be a waste if there was a way to recover and achieve a stronger-than-ever relationship. 



> Take time to think, it will take you time to take control of your life since it's new. I don't think that you should ever abdicate the control of your life to someone else, even a spouse.


I agree and it's something I working to reverse, to regain control of myself and my life. It's not an overnight thing though - I have let myself slip a bit too far and I'm going to seek IC when I can. Meanwhile I have been establishing some really good new friendships and rekindled old ones. I've started some new hobbies and took up some old ones and I have the potential of an exciting new job on the horizon that will take me away travelling the world more regularly with a better income.



> My marriage is very good at presence. I am fully committed to my family and spouse but, the possibility that one or the other of us may exit, never escapes me.


:smthumbup: I admire that and would want that appreciation in my own marriage; not fear of losing one another but a healthy respect for each other that means we always appreciate what we have and act in accordance every day. 

I don't know how to go about this but I suppose I can just work on myself. I'm loving the support I'm getting on here though. Seriously, cheers folks! I hope I can be of help to others in the future


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

It's early days. No one knows what is right for you. You are the only one that knows your history and that should govern how you handle this. You seem to have very level head. 

My impression is that you are getting out from under. You have been very supportive and generous. The problem comes about when its not mutual. 

Consistently giving support in a way your partner needs but not getting support the way you need may lead your partner to think you don't need anything. Has that happened to you? 

Have you faded into the background to your wife; does she assume you will always be there? She is enjoying a fantasy freedom and self discovery. Doing it comfortably on your dime. 

It's not mean to bring in a little reality into her life and yours. She is your wife not your child. Only hippies and kids get to "find themselves" for free.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Ok, so here's an update on the situation and, again, I'm stuck not knowing what to do or how to act or be. Confused and upset but still wanting to do the right thing.

I've been reading the suggested reading material, which has been useful in some ways for myself but I'm not sure if any of it applies now. Probably.

To summarise, we had a planned date which involved a bit of a road trip and the opportunity to talk. So I brought up moving back, money issues and my trust. Anyhow, I'm moving back in and it was accepted with understand and anger. Understanding because I explained it was not reasonable given finances and it wasn't helping the relationship by reinforcing abandonment issues. The anger was due to my seeming to switch from wanting an indefinite separation, to a month, to two weeks. Which is right I suppose but it's purely for practical reasons that these periods of times for space grew shorter. 

Next. I plainly said how I couldn't support the business since it was crippling me and is jeopardising any security. I wasn't pulling out because that would be wrong, but I affirmed the reason why I couldn't support for as long as I had intended. Anger. Hurt. Confirmation of abandonment and my inconsistency. That's how that was taken, but again with some understanding about my reasoning I think.

Lastly trust. She'd already said never to worry about affairs and was always upfront about any friendships outside relationship etc. But there was an incident where risque text messages were sent to a male business friend. At the time I was in on the jokes and banter and thought nothing of it but going back over it I felt that it was inappropriate. I explained how I felt and was told I was being jealous and insecure. That I didn't have a problem with it at the time and that I'm turning it around to demonstrate my hurt and "make it all about me". Anger. Pain. Resentment. 

And then it happened - an opening up about her feelings. Her words were full of pain, hurt and anger and emotion I'd not seen, ever. There were profuse tears and bitterness explaining how she has felt alone in the relationship, abandoned during her most difficult time in her life and explained all the reasons she loved me; that she finds me attractive, that I'm passionate about life and have drive, that I am caring and romantic and always show my affection, and that I have always supported her financially.. but now the pain of my hurtful words that have been used in arguments and that I wasn't there to support her emotionally whilst she was going through tremendous amounts of pain because I was so self-absorbed with my own problems and negativity, that I wasn't looking after her - rather the other way round. Yes, all the things I've already identified where I'd screwed up and felt remorse for.

So, all the love she ever had... not gone; replaced. The confusion over why she felt empty has gone. Now she knows she doesn't feel empty - she feels full. Full of hurt and anger and bitterness and resentment which have replaced all feelings of love she ever had for me.

So.. help?

I've given a sincere apology and she's said she'd take one day at a time. But everything has become icy cold.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

PS - the neglect she feels and the abandonment from not being supportive emotionally or looking after her. I said that I would never hurt her like this if I knew she was feeling this way and I would have wanted her to communicate these issues well before it advancing to this level of hurt. However, the recognition of these emotions have only surfaced now - they weren't identified at the time and instead dismissed because "I'm not all bad".

Regardless, she's described my behaviour as the ultimate betrayal and worse than if I'd had an affair or beaten her.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> Ok, so here's an update on the situation and, again, I'm stuck not knowing what to do or how to act or be. Confused and upset but still wanting to do the right thing.
> 
> STOP wanting to do the right thing. You need to be a man, knowing what you want and pursuing it. *Cut the confusion, be cool, define your targets in life, and on short term.* YOUR targets, not anything about her. If she wants to join you, OK, but do not anymore direct your life around her needs. Search, define, follow strictly your own passions.
> 
> ...


STOP apologizing, treat her as she deserves, she will respect you more if you man up. Although you may have been emotional distant, not available or whatever, if you try to be a doormat you will only push her further away.

Be Yourself. You know all you have to know, you have read all the books. You have formulated feelings, thoughts, conclusions. You know it all.

Now Act.

For Yourself.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> STOP apologizing, treat her as she deserves, she will respect you more if you man up. Although you may have been emotional distant, not available or whatever, if you try to be a doormat you will only push her further away.
> 
> Be Yourself. You know all you have to know, you have read all the books. You have formulated feelings, thoughts, conclusions. You know it all.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I needed that.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

So to counter all the whiny posts I've written, here's a positive one. Had my interview for the job today and it seemed very positive. Lasted 2.5 hours! The most intense interview for a job I've ever had. 

Got me thinking though, especially after reading someone's thread on here about relocating for a job away from their wife. Although I've discussed this job with my wife and she told me to go for it, would she be saying the same if we were doing well in the relationship? Given she's saying she has abandonment issues, would I be again confirming them by going for a job that would take me away at the weekdays. My feeling now is that it's her issue and I need to look after myself. I'd be back every weekend and told her it would be important to stay in touch every day through the week. 
If it was the other way round I know I would go with what she wanted to do but then I love here and the feeling is not mutual
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I would say, just enjoy the good feeling you had about the job interview, go from there, build on your strengths, stop the questioning and speculating.

Ignore negativity, what others might think, fears and anxiety.

See the facts, see your positive things, work with them to put forward your best effort. Enjoy that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

She's fallen out of love with you. She is angry and resentful. If she doesn't love you anymore, she should bear the consequences and move out. You might be at fault, but this is the way it is. You still love her and are doing your best to get it back, but it looks unlikely to me. If she doesn't want to move out, sell the house and go separate ways. She needs to experience first hand what the consequences are. Like this, she's got you wrapped around her little finger... yes, man up!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

From what I read, she doesn't have abandonment issues. She has "you not supporting her issues"

Her rationalization hamster seems to be in full gear, coming up with all sorts of excuses why this is all your fault. 

It's your fault the relationship is falling apart.

It's your fault you can't afford to move out, and continue to pay all the bills for her.
it's your fault for all that history rewriting going on in her head about why you suck and she's justified.

Ok, bud. Stop wining. I don't even know you and it's making me feel pathetic towards you, kinda like I want to reach through the screen and smack you...it's so annoying.

Man up!, so to speak. There's no right or wrong thing to do here. She wants out...just let her go. Dissolve all responsibility towards each other and move on. She's got you right where she wants you, bud. Spewing out the pity party about your faults, keeping you confused enough to feel you need to stay around out of some sense of moral obligation. And you are sucking it right up.

Stop the codependency thoughts. That's what she's using against you, because she knows it works. 

Your oxytocin dependency has you confused. And, that's exactly what it is. It's like heroin. You would rather get what little you can from where you know you can, instead of finding another, more reliable supply.

Same reason why people feel the need to stay in the most horrible jobs...they stay with the demon they know...too scared of the unknown...instead of conquering the fears and find a more happy supply with a better company.

On an ending note....there's no better cure to get over a woman than to get over another one...if you catch my drift.

Find someone more suitable for you. 

She may be a good person...deep down...but the dance you and her are moving to right now has the most awful music.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I was a big fan of the book, "Getting the Love you Want" by H. Hendrix. I think all the books telling you to 'man up', 'do the 180', '5 love languages' etc are probably all good and no doubt have helped many people, however, to really re-establish a connection, to find those common goals again in order to see your life out with the person you chose once upon a lifetime ago, I believe you really have to work 'together' with your partner. That's where a lot of books and advice miss the mark. It's mostly about you working on improving yourself, but what about improving together?

I think your marriage is salvageable. I think you're both still trying, despite all the mistakes, all the hurt, you're both still there. That means something. You believe in her or you wouldn't still be trying, and she believes in you or she wouldn't even be bothering to open up anymore, it'd just be over.

I don't want to stop a person from making a positive step forward in their career, but I feel it would be a mistake to leave at this point, or any point. Living apart is hard on a couple, even if they feel happier on their own, the relationship isn't getting better. How do you work on growing closer when you're apart? 

I also don't want to put all this on you, no doubt she has made her fair share of mistakes, but as people have pointed out, you keep leaving. You've left in your head (you made the threat, which means you imagined life without her), then you left for a short period, now you want to leave long term though intermittently. You're always walking out the door.

I have only my own experiences to compare with yours, but when DH and I have ever argued, and he left, it was more than a little painful, and that was only for short (hours) periods. Even if in my head I knew we needed to cool off, or that it might give us perspective, it didn't change the fact that he left, and it hurt.

I think if you leave, you are signing a death warrant on your marriage.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She paid for you to got through school. You are not paying her back by financing her home business. Do you believe in her venture?


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> She paid for you to got through school. You are not paying her back by financing her home business. Do you believe in her venture?


I wasn't trying to get even by financing the business. It was a case of believing in the business and supporting her in it - we went through it together with a good plan and it's just unfortunate that it didn't take off as we had hoped, and not through want of trying. We both agree that it shouldn't continue beyond a year and to call it quits after that but there's still hope at this stage.

No, we were both on board with the business with level heads.

Regarding the other comments - all much appreciated for the different perspectives. 

I've taken them all on board and I reckon it's helped me to know what to do for the immediate future. I've had a positive day today and I think that for now I just concentrate on developing the strength I've gained over the past couple of weeks, respecting both myself and my wife whilst I make some headway in life. 

Patience, perseverance and positivity. That's the way forward for me at the moment.

Thanks for all your help. Will keep folks posted on progress as and when it comes. 

Peace out. 

Kvothe


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

breeze said:


> I don't want to stop a person from making a positive step forward in their career, but I feel it would be a mistake to leave at this point, or any point. Living apart is hard on a couple, even if they feel happier on their own, the relationship isn't getting better. How do you work on growing closer when you're apart?
> 
> I also don't want to put all this on you, no doubt she has made her fair share of mistakes, but as people have pointed out, you keep leaving. You've left in your head (you made the threat, which means you imagined life without her), then you left for a short period, now you want to leave long term though intermittently. You're always walking out the door.
> 
> I think if you leave, you are signing a death warrant on your marriage.


I moved back in yesterday and our first conversation naturally lead to a heart-to-heart for a number of hours. Just want to say that you were bang on about what you said.

Still a bit muddled up about things. Like you said, if it was over it would just be over. Rather she is opening up and I can see she is taking the chance to be very vulnerable in doing so. Also, she is the one that is seeking out MC for the both of us. She's in a lot of pain and hurt and she just wants answers on what to do - stay or leave. I can see it's hard for her - I'm just going to focus on staying positive and being supportive in the ways I wasn't before.

Still not sure about the job vs marriage thing though.. hmmmm


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Personally, I think you saw the pain and bitterness when you announced your move back because she IS seeing someone else. The MC is a way for her to justify that she tried to save things. (She wouldn't want others to think she treated you badly, after all!) 

As far as her "It's all about you" comments: What makes some relationships great is that each person feels like the other IS "all about them." If she wants a great relationship with you, and vice versa, you need to learn when and how to make your LIVES about each other, but in a way that helps each other be "more," instead of helping them be "less." More successful, happier, and accomplished. 

You tried to do this by supporting her business. You've seen that it didn't work, so it's time to change that. You'll still need to make HER the most important priority in your life, and you'll have to do it in a way that makes sense to her. She will need to do this for you, too, if the relationship is to recover. Of course, one of you has to take the lead in making that happen.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

KathyBatesel said:


> Personally, I think you saw the pain and bitterness when you announced your move back because she IS seeing someone else. The MC is a way for her to justify that she tried to save things. (She wouldn't want others to think she treated you badly, after all!)


I can understand anyone coming to that point-of-view, but I know conclusively that there was no other person involved - not the real kind anyhow. There were, however, celebrity crushes which she identified as being symptomatic of a problem in the relationship; something we've gotten to the root of now.

MC may not do much for us at the moment since we're talking openly everyday. I've actually had to request a day of not talking about R so that we can go and actually have fun tomorrow. 

Anyhow, it seems to boil down to repressed hurt and I can wholly understand it from her perspective. It was emotional neglect on my part. Not proud of it but I've owned it and am taking responsibility - have decided that certain characteristics about me that I'm not proud of I will eliminate, with professional help if need be, for myself.. whether I remain in this marriage or not.

I'm not beating myself up over it nor do I believe I single-handedly ruined everything. I've expressed my belief that it would never have gotten so bad if there was communication on the level we currently have it. Alas, the situation is what it is and I'm doing what I can about it with my head held high.

Currently she is in a state of confusion. She's not walking out of the door right now and has said she has "allowed" herself to regain feelings for me.. or not.. Right now, she's not happy and still hurting. She doesn't know if she'll ever trust me again; that is, trust I won't emotionally abandon her again. She has also identified that walking away now would equate to running away from the problem and she wants to be 100% sure that it's the right thing to do before deciding anything.

I don't think there's anything I can do in this situation to help her other than remain positive and respectful, focusing on who I need to be. I dearly want this marriage to work and I don't see a reason it should end unless it is completely impossible for trust to be rebuilt in the relationship. Yet that's a bit of a length-of-string issue I guess. :scratchhead:


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

KathyBatesel said:


> You tried to do this by supporting her business. You've seen that it didn't work, so it's time to change that. You'll still need to make HER the most important priority in your life, and you'll have to do it in a way that makes sense to her. She will need to do this for you, too, if the relationship is to recover. Of course, one of you has to take the lead in making that happen.


The business is being wound down and she's hunting for jobs now. I've decided not to go for the other job too and stay around - not just for the relationship but for me since it would take me away from a lot of the hobbies and passions I've only just started to get back into.

One day at a time.. but I've taken the lead on this one for now


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Try to seek a calmed down way of treating the situation.

When you communicate try to rephrase to each other what the other is feeling in your own words. Leave it at that, do not react to the feelings. Try to find out what the other wants to have or have done. Acknowledge that to each other. Again, without reacting to each other about the issues.

This is very difficult, because we cannot stop ourselves from wanting to win the game of being right. But how frustrating this way of communicating can seem, it will be a good way to clear your relation of all kinds of angry feelings, if you really understand each other.

THEN

Do not think about the situation 'rationally'. Trust your unconscious mind and your gut. 

Concentrate on observing what she will do. Concentrate on doing the things you yourself plan to do. Report the facts to us, as a way to steer your awareness of the situation.

It is a possibility there is an EA/PA, just seen it happen in another thread with some similarities. Everybody fooled by the WW. Keep checking the facts.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Ok. I'll nip this in the bud now. There is no affair. How do I know? 
Access to Facebook, emails and mobile and knowing her day to day comings and goings as well as talking to her about it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

karole said:


> Sorry, but "I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You" is code for "I have a boyfriend." Just go read in the Coping With Infidelity threads and see how many people there were told the EXACT same thing. It may open your eyes.


KTR, certainty is not possible.

This is all too common.

It looks like she is keeping you on plan B until she is sure of a new plan A. Which is not you!


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> It looks like she is keeping you on plan B until she is sure of a new plan A. Which is not you!


This much we _both_ know. 

I agree that certainty isn't possible, but my degree of knowledge about her life and her as a person is enough for me to _reasonably_ assume that there is no affair. 

However, I am definitely plan B at the moment. Let's see what happens.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I know she suffers from abandonment issues, but that seems to be a trait that I'm sure existed prior to the relationship. In such situations, especially when you are trying to control the hemorrhaging, I'd be careful to not to hone in too much on her emotional rollercoaster state...where she is on the fence. Beware of enmeshment...where you are too cued into her to have perspective.

I perceive your wife is damaged and fearful and is accustomed to you springing forth to meet her needs...except that it is not making her any better, so she pulls away, but still doesn't know how to do anything but to expect you to rescue her. She has no coping ability...no self-regulation. DON'T be that for her...it is a violation of both your boundaries. You cannot be wholly sucked into your spouse that you have no identity of your own...it will kill you and your wife will feel alone. At the same time, she has to know how to be her own person. Needs to grow up...that way she can mature into a good woman for you. 

I imagine you are more in a father role than a husband...and that will lead to resentment, contempt, and hopelessness. Kick yourself in gear so you can kick your family in gear. This may restore your wife's hope...because it sounds to me she has lost hope and is not sure how to proceed.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

I have to say I to find this some of the underlying tone a little needy and pathetic. 

Do you love this woman ? 
Show it. 

Do you respect and love yourself ?
Show it. 

Why does she keeps fanning the flames of trust issues with you? 

Do you feel you are trust worthy or not? ( not what she tells you you are) 
Show it. 

If she can not see that you are trust worthy is that your issue or hers? Give that issue back to her with confidence and resolve. Quit hoop jumping. 

Set some boundaries for yourself of how you see a healthy relationship. 

Take some initiative and set up an appointment for the two of you with an MC. It's your marriage too. If you want to save it take the reigns here. Lead, don't be lead.

"Lets see what happens" - Why wait for her? Why not make stuff happen?


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

CanadianGuy said:


> I have to say I to find this some of the underlying tone a little needy and pathetic...
> 
> ..."Lets see what happens" - Why wait for her? Why not make stuff happen?


Needy and pathetic were some of the behaviours I would have described of myself before I left for a couple of weeks - it was identifying those traits and taking time away to regroup that helped me NOT to be needy on my return.

Showing her love and patience and understanding is not needy nor pathetic when I have that in me regardless. Helping her and doing things together because I enjoy doing so and makes her feel good isn't neediness. Giving her space and using the time to do my own thing isn't pathetic. Having her talk to me openly and encourage her to tell me everything regardless of whether it hurts me, take it on the chin and state my own feelings respectfully AND gaining her respect for that.. again, not what I'd consider "Nice Guy" attitudes.

I did the soul-searching, I set the boundaries and I actively went about respecting myself. I came back home and to this marriage with a resolve to do everything I could to save it.

I'm come onto this forum and I lay down my thoughts and try to gain some objectivity, some perspective. But more because I need to vent anonymously. Friends and family are well meaning but ultimately just try to say what they feel is right to bring me comfort. At the end of the day, TAM helps me to vent where I'd otherwise be muddling my thoughts in front of my wife, which wouldn't help the situation. 

"Let's see what happens" - my way of letting go and accepting the current situation. I hope that my posts have shown that I am actively doing something about my marriage by changing my attitudes, but I can only change myself and hope for the best. The rest is not up to me. 

I am booking a session with MC and I'm also talking to one independently tomorrow.

I can't manipulate my wife's feelings as such and I wouldn't want to. I want to be married to someone that loves me for all the right reasons, not because I convinced them I'm "worth" it. Either I am, or I'm not. 

I believe I am.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Great post KTR, you look composed and sensible in your thinking.

The caution you get advised is based on experience with the most unbelievable situation in past threads on TAM. With people just like you or even stronger and wiser, still getting lied to by miss constitution and law themselves. With no blink of the eye responding with lies. With little or no sex because of kids and busy life, but getting up in the middle of the night to run off to OM, and getting back in bed before dawn. With cyber slavery and all.

So, and that is for everybody, you are never completely sure of anything. Correct: we are, until we are not.

The best chance if there is no cheating is some MMSLP in your case, you need to get the initiative and she needs to follow your interest. I am not sure about that, but its an educated guess.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Progress report:

Today I received a tiny cuddle and was told the following, "I forgive you completely and the pain is gone.. but I still have a big question mark over us."

I'm happy atleast that she is feeling a little better within herself.

In other news, my one-off session with the IC was revealing and echoed much of what FormerSelf had to say on the matter. 

Very, very simply it boiled down to how I need to step back because I'm perpetuating a victim triangle with her in victim mode and that I just focus on my own needs whilst simply being my wife's friend right now.

MC appointment is in progress - they're dragging their heals in booking us for a session.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Progress report: no progress.

Things are bleak. I think on average I'm a little more positive and in control but this marriage is a shambles. Over the past month I've been consistently loving, supportive, listening and happy, spending time together and taking it day by day. 

There's nothing more I can do really and from our last discussion we agreed that she should probably see her own counsellor to deal with the confusion she feels since she expressed being in a constant state of flux regarding the relationship. 

She is unhappy in the relationship, she does not find me attractive, she does not connect with me nor does she really seems to want to. She knows what she wants to feel and what she wants from a relationship and she is aware that we both want exactly the same things in life and love, but she cannot find them with me.

Still live together, still share the same bed, still talk to one another everyday with laughing and joking, still care for each other in a friendly way and she still cuddles me and gives me the occasional quick kiss everyday, but she describes herself in limbo and unhappy. 

I'm going away with work soon and will only be back at the weekends. She has expressed the desire to form a decision over that period of time away from me. She is hoping that the time apart will bring back some lost feelings.. I have told her I didn't feel that it was a good way to form judgements about a very important decision. That without the connection, she will not miss me and if she wanted to feel the way she wants in a relationship and still values the commitment we made to one another, we should be working together now to fix the marriage by whatever means necessary - but, in her own words, she's mentally left the marriage and emotionally disconnected from me.

The hurt is tough but I think I'm rolling with it a bit better nowadays.


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## IronicSmile (Jan 5, 2012)

Dude, sounds like your wife's "career" is milking you for everything you've got. If she has a business, how much money has it made? What is her gross and net profit? Why can't she support any of her own expenses? Seriously, you need to demand to see her books, if she has any, if she doesn't demand to see her checking/savings. Sounds like she might just be stockpiling your money as quickly as possible before the gravy train runs out.

Move in, pay the essentials and nothing else, stop paying for the business, and if she doesn't grow up, appreciate you, and start working on the marriage divorce her. You're still in doormat status friend.


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## JWTBL (May 28, 2014)

I don't think you're a doormat, you are who you are and have tried your best to make sense of a bad situation and made an honest attempt to save your marriage. Now, by your own admission, it sounds like it is over, and hopefully by working out of town it will give you both the space to clear your heads and start doing the practical things it will take to end the relationship - lawyers, discussions of how to divide the finances, etc. She may never know what she wants, but she seems to know what she doesn't want - leave her to it.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

IronicSmile said:


> Move in, pay the essentials and nothing else, stop paying for the business, and if she doesn't grow up, appreciate you, and start working on the marriage divorce her. You're still in doormat status friend.


A lot's happened since the beginning of this post. I did move back in a week later and set about working on marriage and self. As someone else here pointed out I'd done all the reading, I knew what to do, I just had to do it. 

I have made mistakes along the way, which may well have ruined all my efforts and cost me the chance of saving anything, but I've tried.. and I am still trying. I'm not so scared of an outcome anymore though - not to the point of desperation I was once feeling. I'm preparing for life to move forward whichever direction it turns, I just hope that my wife starts leaning in and begins to actually want to work on "us". It's clear to both of us that we want the same things and that we understand one another, but it got to the point recently where I knew her decisions and her responses and emotions are not my responsibility and all I can do is continue to demonstrate my commitment until she makes a final decision. 

We've discussed our problems to death and it's agreed that she should talk through her issues with an IC. My advice to her has been not to make any hasty decisions until she'd sorted through her confusion, preferably with a professional therapist.


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Speaking from experience here. I was in an emotionally abusive relationship. I am not saying you are abusive, but you didn't treat your wife well and she built up a lot of resentment.

I did the same. I began to hate him for all the ways he mistreated me. The love I had vanished. She may have said that she forgave you, as I did my ex. The problem was that after all that had happened, I didn't love him anymore. It is like I knew what he was capable of and all the things we had shared seemed meaningless.

My spouse, like you, tried to fix his wrongs after I exploded one night and told him I wanted a divorce. He tried to fix it, but from the beginning, I knew it wouldn't work. I sense that your wife is probably in the same boat. She knows she doesn't love you anymore. She may care about you, but making a life with you is just not going to work.

I am glad you found a job that gets you out of the house. Don't be surprised if you do end up divorcing. From reading all your posts, I can see that you wife really has tried to make it work, but she knows deep down that her heart is not in it.

At least now you have learned a valuable lesson and you know that in the next relationship you shouldn't make the same mistakes. It's part of life, hard, but real.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

inquizitivemind said:


> At least now you have learned a valuable lesson and you know that in the next relationship you shouldn't make the same mistakes. It's part of life, hard, but real.


Many thanks for your honest post, inquizitivemind. I appreciate that is probably how my wife feels for the most part as well as confusion. Some days she feels she needs to run after a new and different life, other times she feels "ok" and more accepting of a potential life together. 

We've talked respectfully to each other about our feelings and we do understand one another but the ball is in her court and she still doesn't know which direction to kick or how to kick or what shape the ball is. She does appreciate that she needs help for herself on some level, which is what I referred to in my previous post; that there are issues which I cannot and should not help her with.

Also, whilst I do accept responsibility for my failings in the relationship and have taken steps to overcome them and change for the matter, I am not wholly responsible for the downfall of my marriage. I was never abusive and only ever acted out of love. Yes, I was neglectful emotionally but she didn't communicate her needs and was dishonest both with me and with herself. Whilst she would be disrespectful at times, I would be reactive and defensive. I have never raised a hand or emotionally try to manipulate her, but the same cannot be said of her. We both have a responsibility to the relationship and whilst I was remorseful and a bit self-absorbed before, I understand that now it's not all my fault.

At the same time, there have been times I've _really_ doubted the relationship and whether I could trust her again, but I was prepared to forgive and prepared to stick by her. Granted I don't regard feelings/emotions as so important perhaps because I view them as a product of our way of thinking and behaving. When I married her, it was after 10 years and we'd gone through hell even within our relationship we had undergone many changes. I married her _because_ we'd survived all of that, not because of lovey dovey gooeyness. Which is why it hurt so much when she appeared to have thrown in the towel in the early rounds. I'm still fighting.. and I will do until the bitter end. But that's just who I am.


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## texasoutlaw82 (Dec 27, 2013)

Raven;

Your story mirrors mine on so many levels. Like you, I failed in a bunch of areas only to exceed in many others within the relationship. Unfortunately, that imbalance doesn't equate to a strong relationship. Sometimes we merely acknowledge our lack of's and magnify what we excel at. This is a pendulum swing in which we wholeheartedly believe we have given it all only to discover that the other person has no idea how much we've given.

I only say this because I recently came to this realization and to offer up another point of view. Sometimes, I believe, a person has to stop trying to play God and just let life let things fall into place at times. Just another point of view. Best of luck to you brother.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks for your comment and perspectives Texas. I can appreciate what you mean; it was swings and roundabouts for me, but to start with I was very much in the "it's all my fault" camp. Now I'm a little more objective. I've taken responsibility for my failings (meaning action) and seen that it takes two to make a marriage work. My partners own deficiencies played a part and we both have work to do on ourselves. We both know this and best of all, we both are doing something about it.

Anyhow..

UPDATE:

Glimmer of hope? From an argument?? Maybe. "Perhaps I'm just reading into things" I thought, but then my thoughts were confirmed. So I thought I'd share.

I'm not going into details but a few weeks ago I discovered my wife was being extremely disrespectful to me and I challenged her on it. She was apologetic and understanding of my hurt. However, since then my trust in her or rather desire to build trust with her since has waned and some days I've struggled to stay focused on remaining positive about working on the marriage. Not giving up, more just a sort of "clouding over". When I was demonstrating my affection and love at first, it was all heart-felt but I decided it was probably too much and was making my wife uncomfortable. I still try to encourage date nights; taking her for a meal when I can afford it, going for a walk or run together. She shares her thoughts and achievements with me everyday and I enjoy spending what little time I get with her in the evenings when she chooses to be around me, respecting her space when she wants to be left alone.

Anyhow, (I'm waffling).. yesterday she had cause to celebrate. We were both happy and we agreed prior to that we should have a treat together. Earlier that day I'd arranged to go out with a friend the following day and I'd asked her what her plans were - she said she had no plans so I said I'd be going out with a friend (btw - all my friends are male). My plans were scuppered though and I returned home early with my wife looking rather dejected at my presence, so we talked.

Turns out she thought/hoped I was asking her about her plans so that I could take her out for a date and was upset that I wasn't - that I was going out with a friend. Now I had in mind to take her out at the weekend and spend time with her then and these plans with my friend were made before. I listened to her, and apologised; I can understand how that would be hurtful and reassured her that I planned to treat her this weekend and beyond.

The point is this. I'd gotten to think that my wife was totally apathetic towards me, that she wasn't happy with me and any love I showed her was completely unrequited. She does show she cares, but she doesn't show the sort of love we used to share. But the fact that she was upset and hurt that I wasn't taking her out on a date shows she does care, that she _is_ receptive and that maybe, just maybe, I should act "as if" and that any romantic gestures will be received well.

As I said, we had a talk earlier and she admitted she has checked out of the marriage completely, 

- that she would like to trust in the man I am showing and becoming but needs to reach a point where the "good outweighs the bad"; 

- that she thinks there must still be some love for me in her after 14 years together and it was only in the past couple of years that the hurt has accumulated; 

- that she wants the same things from a marriage but she mostly feels she'd be happier on her own - she does not feel the need for anyone else in her life, although she does want to be romanced and feel cherished; 

- that she is not making any hasty decisions and taking it day by day until she is certain of her feelings; 

- that despite feeling no connection she does have days where she feels warmth for me and think it possible to love me again.

So, any ideas? what would you do? dates on the cheap? novel ideas for putting that gorgeous smile on my wife's face?


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

It was our wedding anniversary the other day and it was lonely.
I'm working away at the moment and she's requested NC whilst I'm away. I return home at the weekends now and again but when I offered her a getaway for the weekend of our anniversary she requested no celebrations, no cards, no gifts, no contact.

She wants to leave but she doesn't want to go through or inflict the pain of divorce. At the same time she doesn't know how the relationship can mend and wishes for some revelation or epiphany whilst I'm away that causes her to check back in. 

I asked her what it would take to regain trust and love in our relationship - she had no idea. She says she is incapable of trusting me again and the thought of wholeheartedly trying to be loving and working on the relationship makes her sick.

Nice...


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Based on your posts, your wife says that she is unhappy, doesn't find you attractive, and working on your relationship makes her sick. It's time to go. Get a divorce and get over this pain. You deserve to be happy.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> I asked her what it would take to regain trust and love in our relationship - she had no idea. She says she is incapable of trusting me again and the thought of wholeheartedly trying to be loving and working on the relationship makes her sick.


What happened to make her not trust you? Was there a catalyzing incident of some sort? Or was it slow erosion over time?

I've observed, sadly due to my own marriage breakup, that often a couple gets into a vicious circle of triggering each other on negative behaviour. The classic "I would do XYZ if you did ABC." "Well, I would do ABC if you did XYZ." Except that neither spouse wants to be the first one to change because it feels like caving in, accepting blame, etc.

My ex claimed that one of the reasons for our marriage breakdown was that I was always so negative and critical. My ex had gotten to a point where everything I did FELT negative and critical no matter what it was (even a compliment apparently had nasty undertones!). I thought I was the same person I always was, but I admit, probably a bit crankier, due to having a high pressure job and inadequate sleep after having children. But I was perceived very differently. Five years later, just seeing my ex makes me feel negative, so that attitude is only being reinforced on an ongoing basis, too!

I guess what I'm rambling to try to say is that your ex is reading negativity into you, even when it may not be there to begin with.

That example of you asking her if she had plans for the evening and when she didn't, you told her you were going out with a friend instead. What you perceived was you asking if she had made couple plans for the two of you, or if you had a free night to be with your friend. She perceived it as you asking her if she was available to be with you, but when she said she was, you dumped her for a friend.

The hurdle you need to overcome is not changing your actions, but her perception of your actions. Right now, her perception is that you do not place a high priority on her happiness.

On the other hand, if she's not willing to make an effort to improve the marriage, but is afraid to end it because of causing pain, and is waiting for some sort of outside influence to do it for her (like, what, you get hit by a bus?) just pull the bandaid off.

Ask her some questions when you have a few hours. Get her to blurt out the first thing that comes to mind - no time to think. Have this conversation in a dark room - sometimes honesty comes more easily when you don't have to see the other person's face, and you know they can't see yours.

What would you do if you won a million dollars?
What would you do if you were offered a fabulous job across the country?
What would you do if I was hit by a bus and killed?
What would you do if you found out you had only six months left to live?
What would you do if [insert her celebrity crush] knocked on the door and invited you to Hawaii?
What would you do if [insert your celebrity crush - just pick some hot actress who faintly resembles her if you don't have a crush] knocked on the door and invited me to Hawaii?

That sort of thing. It's the first thing that comes to mind, what she would dream of doing, not what she thinks she ought to do in that situation.

Her answers about the future she envisions after both good and bad events, and how you fit into it, will hopefully give you some insight into what she's truly feeling. And even if the answers are fruitless, hey, you've still spent an evening demonstrating that you are interested in her feelings.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Thank you for the post Hopeful Cynic. The erosion of trust is somewhat difficult to pin point but there are certain events that broke down the trust dramatically, namely these three events:

1) not "being there" emotionally during pregnancy/miscarriage
2) "abandonment" for when I left for a few weeks to give us both space
3) "not believing her" when it came to the pregnancy

I've used parentheses here because as you say, these are her perceptions and no matter how I explain my thoughts and feelings, she remains with the above perception of the events. However, the more I have tried explaining myself in the past, the more we tend to argue because it I don't feel I am understood or that my explanations of accepted, and it's difficult to argue the points without sounding like I'm contradicting her or telling her she's wrong - even when I listen and say that I understand why she feels the way she feels.

#1 - I was going through a tough period and was somewhat withdrawn from life in general because I'd been rejected for a job I'd pinned all my hopes on and saw my career as failing. I've changed my attitude to this a lot over the last year because I recognise how damaging my negativity has been to those around me. However, my behaviour at the time was not responsible for my lack of excitement about pregnancy and I do not recall withdrawing affection. I remember telling myself not to get excited until we knew for certain about the pregnancy but that didn't stop me from showing my love and care. The thing is I showed my love in ways that weren't recognised. I worked hard to pay the bills and provide a nice Christmas, I did DIY in the house to prepare us for a nice holiday, I took care of my wife's business bills so that she could feel secure and relax, and I never failed to stop telling her I loved her everyday. But she still feels I disconnected from her because I didn't put my arm around her and ask how she was at the time.. which has caused me a lot of confusion because that is something I would naturally do.

#2 - we were working on the relationship but it would blow hot and cold. When cold, I would feel rejection and become defensive and moody. I saw that this was damaging our healing process and since she was always requesting space I decided to stay at a friend's house for a few weeks to get out of each other's hair - give her the space she wanted and give me the time to get a life and get a grip. Unfortunately, during this time she identified that she was dealing with abandonment and that she feels I abandoned her in a time of need during pregnancy and I abandoned her again by leaving, even though I thought the time apart was mutually agreed. I denied her request for more time apart and moved back for two reasons i) I didn't want to reinforce her abandonment issues and promise to show her I was there for her, ii) I couldn't afford to pay for my living expenses away from home as well as pay for her. I also had to withdraw from providing her money for the business because it was jeopardising our financial security. All this was met with a tonne of anger and bitterness; that I broke my promises and that I only did things on my terms etc.

#3 - we continued working on communication but during one conversation I was trying to understand what was going through my head at the time of pregnancy. I wanted to explain that I was upset when we previous thought she was pregnant and it didn't take so I just was holding back my excitement until either a missed period, a test or a GP visit. I was utterly rubbish with my words though and it came out as me not believing her. I tried explaining that it was just a part of me didn't want to believe until we had proof. However, that does not at all mean that I didn't believe her - which is her understanding. I did. I remember fixing up the house and saying that I was looking forward to building a nursery. May be my guardedness came through in my actions somehow and coupled with my negativity it probably did seem that I was not interested and not supporting her. I get that. But that's not how I felt and that's not how I feel now. In fact, I've been to IC and will continue to when I return home so that I can be a more positive and emotionally strong person.

Unfortunately, I think she's too far gone and the disconnection is too distant to recover since she has escaped the idea of working on us and has been seeking a life beyond the marriage for some time now. She checked out long ago and the idea of checking back in just doesn't make sense to her. 

We have talked a lot about our feelings and I'm afraid I know the answers to the questions you listed. She is obsessed with a male celebrity and seeks to connect with them and dreams of a relationship with them because she's convinced they were old flames. Be that the case or not, I view this as a projection of what she wants in a relationship and how she wants to feel - adored, secure, passionate, fulfilled. It's how she used to feel with me for 14 years up until the past year and she does not believe it is possible to get that back in this relationship. When I asked whether she cannot trust me or she doesn't want to trust me (through fear of hurt), she says that she cannot. She doesn't know how and what I could do to make her feel better. She does not know how I can demonstrate my trustworthiness.

On the surface these issues may seem trivial in comparison to other marital problems. There no abuse, no affairs, no constant fighting or bickering, no nastiness directed to each other, we still cuddle in bed, we still can compliment each other and laugh and joke, we still care about each other with respect and she knows I love her. But this huge disconnection and lack of trust in me and the marriage is corrupting everything we had that gave us a healthy marriage. Her perceptions of the past and desires for the future together with her confusion about whether it's worth staying or leaving are tearing us both apart. 

On the flip side, although this is very judgemental I think it holds a grain of truth: a relative said that her behaviour continues because she is enjoying the attention from friends and family. She is a victim of a bad marriage - her husband doesn't care, her husband has no passion in life, her husband causes her pain and keeps hurting her.. etc. She has a natural instinct (by her own admission) to run away from difficult situations but she can't do that so easily in this situation so she escapes in other ways - fantasising about other men and a glamorous lifestyle with me out of the picture. Being a success in life, love and everything. All this leaves no room for me and I represent all that is negative - I am reality and reality is too upsetting to deal with.

Sorry for the long reply.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Kvothe_The_Raven said:


> On the flip side, although this is very judgemental I think it holds a grain of truth: a relative said that her behaviour continues because she is enjoying the attention from friends and family. She is a victim of a bad marriage - her husband doesn't care, her husband has no passion in life, her husband causes her pain and keeps hurting her.. etc. She has a natural instinct (by her own admission) to run away from difficult situations but she can't do that so easily in this situation so she escapes in other ways - fantasising about other men and a glamorous lifestyle with me out of the picture. Being a success in life, love and everything. All this leaves no room for me and I represent all that is negative - I am reality and reality is too upsetting to deal with.


I don't think that's judgmental at all. I think you've hit on the crux of it. She enjoys feeling like a victim, like she doesn't hold any responsibility for what's happened. If she maintains that the problems in the marriage are your fault, then she's never going to be able to contribute to fixing them. And even if you do see areas where you can improve, she's not going to be receptive to them, and the other areas will continue to suffer.

If that's her attitude, the key issue is that she is NOT going to take action, either to improve the marriage or to proceed to divorce. She is 'happy' sitting in this horrible limbo, waiting for you to proceed with divorce so that she doesn't have to look like the bad guy for ending the marriage. Added to that victim-stance is that she seems like a passive person in general, being reactive instead of active. And on top of that, it appears that she's waiting for some sort of knight in shining armour to come rescue her, and she's determined that it not be you. Turn that around, and all you are doing is holding off on divorce until she has an affair!

You've been holding the life preserver for years, waiting for her to climb up the rope out of the water and get back in your boat. She's been clinging to the end of the rope for years, waiting for some other boat to arrive and a guy to manually lift her up out of the water. She may even want you to be that guy, but she doesn't see that you would have to let go of the rope and have her swim on her own for a bit for you to accomplish this. Meanwhile, she gets to blame you for not pulling her in, and if you let go of the rope, she can blame you for that too. Somewhere down the line, she forgot she knows how to climb rope or swim.

So this is the impasse you've got right now. What are you more afraid of? Staying in it, or being blamed for dumping her? Because she is NOT going to be the one to make a decision either way.

One more thing (I'm just lengthy, lol). You see the phrase 'rewriting marital history' around here a lot, generally in the context of infidelity, where the cheating spouse puts on grey coloured glasses when they look back over the marriage and convince themself it sucked all along, to justify their cheating. Your wife is doing that, looking back over past incidents, seeing what she wants to see to justify her perception of you being at fault for everything.


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## Kvothe_The_Raven (Apr 6, 2014)

Many thanks for your reply - I can identify with the life preserver analogy. I think that my wife's perception is probably the other way around; that she has been holding on to me whilst she's gained her strength through counselling but I have been carrying much of my own baggage which has prevented me from keeping up. So I think she's tired of holding on.

It's a narrow view in my opinion because we all grow in different ways over different time scales but I can appreciate she feels frustrated. A lot of our behaviours still come about through hurt.

One positive that came out recently was her willingness to face reality and realise that divorce would be a very painful process. Previously her focus was mainly on a life beyond and how wonderful it would be to be "free".

Anyhow, I realised myself that I would be stuck in limbo for a seemingly indefinite period of time, but I was resolved in staying in the marriage - if not to work on "us", to work on myself. To leave this marriage in pursuit of "happiness" is not something I could align myself with because I believe in the marriage and our relationship. I couldn't be truly happy or at peace with myself if I didn't try everything possible. I will not be the one to leave this marriage. I do not choose to live with regrets. 

I have the opportunity to deal with the hurt and heartbreak, to become strong and develop as the best person I can be within this difficult situation. Nothing worth fighting for was ever easy.


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