# Why would a man accept a marriage then accept no sex from W?



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?

I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.

Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Maybe it’s because deep down, they really aren’t into sex much if at all.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Personal said:


> Maybe it’s because deep down, they really aren’t into sex much if at all.


Wonder why.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Personal said:


> Maybe it’s because deep down, they really aren’t into sex much if at all.


This is an interesting thought. I always perceived it as a lack of will to get what they need.

I'm wondering if there isn't something to this in at least some of the men.

It's thought provoking at least.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

My guess is they value what else the wife provides. Security, sense of belonging, housekeeper, social life, whatever. There are a lot of men who have never been on their own and don't know how to navigate life on their own.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

The acceptance of no sex has me baffled too. If I go more than a week with no sex I turn into a whiny, *****y, pain in the ass. I can't stand to be around myself, so I'm sure my wife would grow tired of it rather quickly. I can relieve that to some degree with masturbation, but in my mind that isn't how marriage is supposed to work. At its core a marriage is a sexual relationship, at least in my mind. 

I think it happens because many men are afraid to talk about it and most certainly afraid to do anything about it. I truly believe that the men with no sex are weak. Not necessarily physically weak, but mentally and emotionally weak. Lacking confidence maybe? This comes from a combination of societal pressures and the stupid **** love makes us do and put up with. So you get a double whammy. The men aren't willing to stand up for themselves which in turn makes them less desirable and attractive to their spouse. 

For women, I think it is a combination of not being turned on by that weak man and selfishness. Attraction and desire are in large part mental, so I believe a woman has the ability to allow herself to be turned on by their husband, if they really want to. This is one of many things I absolutely love about my wife. She genuinely cares about all of my needs, including intimacy and sex. I give her everything I've got in all aspects of our marriage and she does the same. Upon reflection there are times where I know she wasn't really all that interested in sex, but she allowed me the opportunity to get her turned on. The result is great sex even when she probably could have lived without it, but she knows it is important to me and to the marriage and she will be fully engaged in it, no "starfish sex". I see it as a very selfless act and those selfless acts are the foundation of a great marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I guess for some men it's difficult to give up your servant/housekeeper and go back to mummy. No sex? Well, not great, but at least I don't have to wash my socks and pants...

For others, sex stops after the kids, when you are trapped. So you accept no sex to keep the family together and also avoid financial ruin.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> Maybe it’s because deep down, they really aren’t into sex much if at all.


I'm sure there are men that don't have much interest in sex, but that is typically what attracts you to someone in the first place. That tells me they were at least somewhat into sex at some point. 

I think it is fear. Fear of not performing well, fear of rejection, etc. As time goes by and sex becomes more and more infrequent it gets even harder to restart and the fears compound.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

You are all wrong.
The question is wrong.
Whenever you see a situation that doesn't match your perception of life. You automatically go to because he is simply ****ed up. That's not even trying to understand.
If we want to talk about sexual dysfunction you have to start with the person who selects for it.
Not with the person who is driven into it.
A problem with that is that (and I'm truly coming to believe this) sometimes both parties are driven into it.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> You are all wrong.
> The question is wrong.
> Whenever you see a situation that doesn't match your perception of life. You automatically go to because he is simply ****ed up. That's not even trying to understand.
> If we want to talk about sexual dysfunction you have to start with the person who selects for it.
> ...


I would really like to understand your perspective on this, but I just don’t. 😬

Would you explain more of what you mean?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> You are all wrong.
> The question is wrong.
> Whenever you see a situation that doesn't match your perception of life. You automatically go to because he is simply ****ed up. That's not even trying to understand.
> If we want to talk about sexual dysfunction you have to start with the person who selects for it.
> ...


A person who chooses to remain in a sexually unfulfilling marriage is selecting for it.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I would really like to understand your perspective on this, but I just don’t. 😬
> 
> Would you explain more of what you mean?


I'm willing to make an attempt, but it is probably going to take all day. Don't hold your breath.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> A person who chooses to remain in a sexually unfulfilling marriage is selecting for it.


What are you protecting by pushing the blame in this illogical direction?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> What are you protecting by pushing the blame in this illogical direction?


What are you talking about?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

minimalME said:


> I would really like to understand your perspective on this, but I just don’t. 😬
> 
> Would you explain more of what you mean?


I love the reading emoji!!!!!!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> My guess is they value what else the wife provides. Security, sense of belonging, housekeeper, social life, whatever. There are a lot of men who have never been on their own and don't know how to navigate life on their own.


That's why I've always said a guy has to be living on his own and self sustaining before harboring even the thought of being able to be good H to a woman. That includes mentally, emotionally as well financially mature enough.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> *A person who chooses to remain in a sexually unfulfilling marriage is selecting for it.*


Aren't there a few posters right on this board who are choosing to live that dream? Some don't post often, however.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Because divorce is messy especially with kids. It's easier just to go jerk off in a dark corner than split the assets and start over as a single parent with a smaller paycheck.

Better question is why would a man get married, period.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Mr. Nail said:


> You are all wrong.
> The question is wrong.
> Whenever you see a situation that doesn't match your perception of life. You automatically go to because he is simply ****ed up. That's not even trying to understand.
> If we want to talk about sexual dysfunction you have to start with the person who selects for it.
> ...


I am not sure what you are saying here, you are much too vague.

Of course this is a more complicated issue than just, "he's effed up", but your response is confusing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> A person who chooses to remain in a sexually unfulfilling marriage is selecting for it.


Exactly. They have determined it's worth it to stay and that is a choice regardless of the situation.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> You are all wrong.
> The question is wrong.
> Whenever you see a situation that doesn't match your perception of life. You automatically go to because he is simply ****ed up. That's not even trying to understand.
> If we want to talk about sexual dysfunction you have to start with the person who selects for it.
> ...


The most relevant sentences here to me are good points.
1. There are Hs who are driven to it.
2. There are Hs who select it.

But no reasons as to why a H would tolerate it. Some who say they're 2. are really 1. likely.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Because divorce is messy especially with kids. It's easier just to go jerk off in a dark corner than split the assets and start over as a single parent with a smaller paycheck.
> 
> Better question is why would a man get married, period.


Because Mrs. C has a really nice derriere and knows how to use it?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Because divorce is messy especially with kids. It's easier just to go jerk off in a dark corner than split the assets and start over as a single parent with a smaller paycheck.
> 
> Better question is why would a man get married, period.


I've seen men stay in sexless LTR with no marriage as well. Women too.

And the money reason just falls flat for me. You will be spending that money on her and your kids anyway, either way...it's just in one scenario, you are paying for a prison, and in the other, you are paying for your freedom.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

minimalME said:


> I would really like to understand your perspective on this, but I just don’t. 😬
> 
> Would you explain more of what you mean?





Blondilocks said:


> What are you talking about?


Apparently some thoughts are to dangerous to give voice to. Minimal me will have to find her own enlightenment on this one.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


There are cases of the other way round.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

To answer your question in my case it was because I like everything else about my wife and living with her aside from the sex.

From the very beginning if she wasn’t going as much as I wanted I never would have married her. Only after many years did things settle down and it happened gradually.

I also got terrible advice from people who confirmed it was the natural state of things.

After a long while I started to see the wrongness of it and then I acted and fixed it.

Last month for her was one of the busiest months she ever had in her life and we still managed almost 5x/week. Now that she is less busy we’re back to normal.

So for my part I have given the correct advice to my younger friends at the gym. They text “my Queen” and garbage like that and I shake my head and then point them at MMSLP.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

They have a low sex drive anyway or don't really care enough about sex, or they are too passive to do anything about it (or any other marital issues), or they think if they find the magic formula their wife will suddenly be interested, or they have been sold some BS that the decline is normal, or they believe their wife's reasons/excuses. 

In my marriage, we've had several phases each of daily sex, frequent sex, duty sex, and sexless. My wife wasn't always the one doing the rejecting. 

As for why women think it's okay... I'd say they know their husband will put up with it, or they just don't care, or they aren't really thinking at all because they are so wrapped up in their own head, or they have been sold the BS, or they do care but have real issues going on.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> There are cases of the other way round.


Yup. I knew a young woman and man at church. I liked her but he seemed off. They ended up getting married and it lasted less than a year because he wouldn't have sex.

She was beautiful and I honestly thought he scored and she was obviously not only willing but very desirous of sex.

I would hope women don't put up with this nonsense either.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


They are both asexual or they have another goal in mind.

No sex marriages are more common in power couples, because their priority is politics and gathering personal power. 

Think Hilary Clinton.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I would hope women don't put up with this nonsense either


They do sadly there are a couple on here now I can think of and Reddit deadbedrooms is littered with them.

It’s a tragic waste actually.

Once I fully recognized the wrongness of the situation I felt like a complete dope for wasting all that time.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> I've seen men stay in sexless LTR with no marriage as well. Women too.
> 
> And the money reason just falls flat for me. You will be spending that money on her and your kids anyway, either way...it's just in one scenario, you are paying for a prison, and in the other, you are paying for your freedom.


It doesn't even have to be child support, taxes for a single person are a lot higher than a married person. Married people share one martgage or one rent. If you are down to one income and a lower income after taxes and maybe throw some sort of support on top of that then you are barely scrapping by unless you are fairly well off already. 

Atleast if you are a single dude starting out you don't need to much... no kids, no divorce settlement, one bedroom cool....I'm set.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Better question is why would a man get married, period.


Because he's ignorant and he doesn't know any better. Because he sees everyone else doing it and thinks it's "the thing to do". Because he has this vague belief that somehow marriage provides some sort of benefits that cannot be achieved any other way. Because he thinks the statistics in regard to failed marriages and divorce won't apply to him. Because he buckles to the pressure applied by his soon-to-be-child support receiver or to friends or family.

Because he thinks marriage will make everything all better.

By the time he figures it out, it's way too late.

I wish I could say that I figured it out before it was way too late. But I can't say that.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> What are you protecting by pushing the blame in this illogical direction?


Calling this illogical is...illogical. 

The post made perfect sense logically, even if you don't want to accept it as true. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Atleast if you are a single dude starting out you don't need to much... no kids, no divorce settlement, one bedroom cool....I'm set.


Before I got married I lived in a studio apartment with all my stuff in moving boxes so I could throw it in my car and leave at the drop of a hat.

The state I am in now is so opposite to that it is insane.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Trident said:


> Because he's ignorant and he doesn't know any better. Because he sees everyone else doing it and thinks it's "the thing to do". Because he has this vague belief that somehow marriage provides some sort of benefits that cannot be achieved any other way. Because he thinks the statistics in regard to failed marriages and divorce won't apply to him. Because he buckles to the pressure applied by his soon-to-be-child support receiver or to friends or family.
> 
> Because he thinks marriage will make everything all better.
> 
> ...


LoL! I can't let this go.😁

I got married because I'm a prime man, alpha male, Chad, etc. and I can handle my ****, know how to select a grown ass woman and how to keep her and require her to work to keep me as well.

The first part is a bit tongue in cheek but I'm going to start having fun with you guys that talk like this and believe you can't have a say in your life regarding marriage.😉


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Trident said:


> Because he's ignorant and he doesn't know any better. Because he sees everyone else doing it and thinks it's "the thing to do". Because he has this vague belief that somehow marriage provides some sort of benefits that cannot be achieved any other way. Because he thinks the statistics in regard to failed marriages and divorce won't apply to him. Because he buckles to the pressure applied by his soon-to-be-child support receiver or to friends or family.
> 
> Because he thinks marriage will make everything all better.
> 
> ...


Maybe it is because he has seen many, many adults in life long marriages that were very happy. Maybe he sees it as the pinnacle of family life. Maybe his religious beliefs compel him to desire it. Maybe he sees it as the ultimate level of commitment and dedication that he feels is important. It couldn't possibly be any of those, right?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Trident said:


> Because he has this vague belief that somehow marriage provides some sort of benefits that cannot be achieved any other way.


Apparently it does, or men wouldn't be complaining about the loss of their lifestyle if they were to divorce. I guess some men prefer to live in a house rather than rent a studio apartment.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I can't let this go.😁
> 
> I got married because I'm a prime man, alpha male, Chad, etc. and I can handle my ****, know how to select a grown ass woman and how to keep her and require her to work to keep me as well.
> 
> The first part is a bit tongue in cheek but I'm going to start having fun with you guys that talk like this and believe you can't have a say in your life regarding marriage.😉


Well, we will leave the marriage to the Chad's then, now everyone's happy.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


In my case it was a bit of a boiling frog situation and overdosing on hopium.

Dating and first year of marriage (5-6 years) sex was 3-9 times a week when we were living together.

A year after marriage she wasn't as receptive and affectionate but we were still having sex a couple times a week.

After the first was born she had internal scarring so sex wasn't always comfortable and she was tired a lot so we were down to once a week.

After the second was born, I had just come back from a deployment and some of the scarring had been cleaned up by the doctor during the birth so we had a burst up to a couple times a week again. This lasted maybe 6 months or so.

Once the youngest was mobile she was almost always "too exhausted". I tried to remedy this by doing more. Basically from the time I got home from work until after they went to bed I was hard at it. It was "enough" sometimes but honestly not that often. We were having sex a couple times a month for a while. This gradually went down to Ovulation Day Sex (TM). I knew with great accuracy which day of the month she was likely to be in the mood and there was a chance of sex. 

This was when the hopium started kicking in. Once the kids are more self sufficient, it will be better. Once the kids are in school, things will be better. Once I can work from home, things will be better. Once she's out of school, things will be better. Once she finds the job she wants, things will be better. For the last 5 years of the marriage a steady diet of hopium kept me in a sex 10 times a year relationship. Now I have a girlfriend and its finally better  .


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Maybe it is because he has seen many, many adults in life long marriages that were very happy. Maybe he sees it as the pinnacle of family life. Maybe his religious beliefs compel him to desire it. Maybe he sees it as the ultimate level of commitment and dedication that he feels is important. It couldn't possibly be any of those, right?


It's probably all those, but he is betting against the house.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I got married because I wanted to and I wanted my girlfriend locked down.

When you’re a kid you don’t have any property or money anyway and you have no life experience to draw on so it never occurs to you what things will be like in ten years or twenty years. At least it didn’t to me, I was more concerned about today and tomorrow.

As such I also never saw the sex changing. I heard all the cliches and stuff and I was like well how can this girl who stays up until 2 am screwing until my junk is sore and worn out going to dry up? Just didn’t see that happening.

Of course if I was the man then that I am now I would have done what I would do now and correct that ****.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It doesn't even have to be child support, taxes for a single person are a lot higher than a married person. Married people share one martgage or one rent. If you are down to one income and a lower income after taxes and maybe throw some sort of support on top of that then you are barely scrapping by unless you are fairly well off already.
> 
> Atleast if you are a single dude starting out you don't need to much... no kids, no divorce settlement, one bedroom cool....I'm set.


You partially answered your own question about why get married. The power of combined finances and tax benefits. Don't forget medical insurance. There are many practical reasons to get married. And you will be stuck with child support regardless of martial status.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, we will leave the marriage to the Chad's then, now everyone's happy.


It beats complaining about it. I think some of the arguments being made are purely worthy of ridicule.

Guys who are painting all women with the same brush and making simplistic arguments might as well get ridiculous and simplistic responses.

What's funny is my position actually pisses quite a few women off because I'm unapologetically male and old school at that.

What's just as funny is I will never lack for satisfying female companionship even though I do piss women off.


I understand the sentiment behind MGTOW but I don't agree with it. 

Men need to be strong and draw their own lines and have some requirements.

There are still solid women and women who would get solid in a hurry for men behaving like men.

Men should have their own goals and ambitions. They should be mostly concerned with pursuing them instead of women and that, ironically, is something that women find attractive.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> I got married because I wanted to and I wanted my girlfriend locked down.
> 
> When you’re a kid you don’t have any property or money anyway and you have no life experience to draw on so it never occurs to you what things will be like in ten years or twenty years. At least it didn’t to me, I was more concerned about today and tomorrow.
> 
> ...


It's all ignorance. And then after the marriage, kids, mortgage, it's too late. You are caged. You made vows, you have mouths to support, you have duties to honor. Even if you get rid of your wife, you still have those duties. The cage doesn't go away, it just moves. Might as well find a dark corner to slither into and take care of yourself.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It's all ignorance. And then after the marriage, kids, mortgage, it's too late. You are caged. You made vows, you have mouths to support, you have duties to honor. Even if you get rid of your wife, you still have those duties. The cage doesn't go away, it just moves. Might as well find a dark corner to slither into and take care of yourself.


With responses like this, I understand why something around twenty to thirty percent of men never reproduce.

It's for the best.😵‍💫


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Blondilocks said:


> You live in your head too much. People can't read your mind - not even your wife. Have you actually broke down and had a conversation with your wife? No, why not? Don't want to be vulnerable?


Speaking for myself, it would be likely that she wouldn't have participated in the conversation about sex. "Is that all you care about / think about?" End of discussion. _shrug_


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> It beats complaining about it. I think some of the arguments being made are purely worthy of ridicule.
> 
> Guys who are painting all women with the same brush and making simplistic arguments might as well get ridiculous and simplistic responses.
> 
> ...


That all true. But you have to be lucky to some extent. There's been guys just like you that find their lives imploded by an affair. They are Alpha or old school, whatever you want to call it. They end up the same as those that let it rot on the vine so to speak. I think you got some luck and chose very well. You are one of the successful examples, the simps try to emulate but meet brick walls.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It's all ignorance. And then after the marriage, kids, mortgage, it's too late. You are caged. You made vows, you have mouths to support, you have duties to honor. Even if you get rid of your wife, you still have those duties. The cage doesn't go away, it just moves. Might as well find a dark corner to slither into and take care of yourself.


That sounds like the attitude of a man that will always end up in a sexless marriage. It is also a very toxic attitude about life in general. I guess some people simply aren't cutout for marriage.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> With responses like this, I understand why something around twenty to thirty percent of men never reproduce.
> 
> It's for the best.😵‍💫


I've reproduced, I've had my fair share of women. But marriage wss fking hard like nothing I ever imagined, I felt like I was in a prison. Going to work was a damn relief. If you like it go for it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> That all true. But you have to be lucky to some extent. There's been guys just like you that find their lives imploded by an affair. They are Alpha or old school, whatever you want to call it. They end up the same as those that let it rot on the vine so to speak. I think you got some luck and chose very well. You are one of the successful examples, the simps try to emulate but meet brick walls.


Now cheating happens to good women too.

I will admit I'm a serious a hole and I let my wife know I had zero tolerance for cheating before we even lived together.

Even if she had cheated and I divorced her, I would have been just fine. I can always make more money but don't waste my time.

I would have moved on just fine and she wouldn't have been enjoying the divorced life so much.

Not many women are so well off as might be portrayed in a divorce though I know it's pretty lopsided sometimes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I've reproduced, I've had my fair share of women. But marriage wss fking hard like nothing I ever imagined, I felt like I was in a prison. Going to work was a damn relief. If you like it go for it.


I'm sorry to hear that man.

I don't think it was the marriage institution, I think it was the dynamic between you two.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I can always make more money but don't waste my time.


This.

You made the money in the first place, if you want more then make more.

What you can’t get back is time.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Because divorce is messy especially with kids. It's easier just to go jerk off in a dark corner than split the assets and start over as a single parent with a smaller paycheck.
> 
> Better question is why would a man get married, period.


Well, this... ^^^ that said, I would never be in a totally sexless marriage. So, there is a limit for me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Hiner112 said:


> In my case it was a bit of a boiling frog situation and overdosing on hopium.
> 
> Dating and first year of marriage (5-6 years) sex was 3-9 times a week when we were living together.
> 
> ...


I can see the slow boiling frog analogy. Then one day there would have to be a wtf moment though. Man, I can't see it taking months or years. But good analogy.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I also got terrible advice from people who confirmed it was the natural state of things.


I was surprised that it took 1.5 pages to get to the most logical reason - and probably the one that happens the most. 


Ignorance.


Same thing happened to me. It is beaten into our head starting at a young age. It is a well known joke. Sex stops once you get married. I know CC is closing in on 50 and I'm 42. I know a lot of you are around the same ages as us or older. The internet wasn't around when we were coming of age. Now, if something like this happens to someone 30 years old or younger, they definitely cannot claim ignorance. There are places like TAM where you can learn that you can indeed have a fulfilling married life. 

For me, it wasn't just the overall "natural state of things". My wife manipulated me as well (whether she did it on purpose or accident). I have a great deal of respect for my wife and that was used against me for many years. Any time we had this discussion, she would tell me that she has spoken to her friends and they don't have sex with their husbands. I just trusted my wife without giving it enough thought. I mean, I've always been told sex stops with marriage and if my wife tells me that no one else has sex either.... I mean, she wouldn't lie to me, right?

Secondly, she would gaslight me (again, don't know if it was on purpose or not). I would know that we hadn't had sex in 3 weeks. I would tell her. She would tell me I was wrong and it has only been 3 days. This happened MANY times throughout our marriage. She tells me that she never meant to do that and never meant to mislead me on purpose. Admittedly, I do not believe her and we've been working very hard this year for me to trust her again - but I am now in the mode of "trust but verify". It is one of the main reasons why I now track our sex (both frequency and quality). I will never be lied to again in this manner. 

Lastly, realizing my own value. This should be obvious, but it isn't. Not for a lot of people. Again, I put a lot of onus on the ol' "This is just the way things are" mantra. I didn't know any better. 


For all the good that TAM does, I think a lot of people need to remember how they got here. Most of us had marital issues. I think a lot of people solve their issues here and then when the next person comes by with problems in their marriage, many on TAM say, "I can't believe this person puts up with this crap from their spouse!!!". For those members of TAM, I say to cool those jets a bit. Be happy that people came here for help looking for answers. This is a great source of knowledge. The answers they are looking for are here and they can use this knowledge to move forward in their lives in a productive way. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a time machine and go talk to my 25 year old self, but that isn't possible. There is a reason why people say, "Youth is wasted on the young". It's funny, but it is true. How can I possibly expect my 25 year old self to have the knowledge, wisdom and experience of me today? Life doesn't work that way. However, younger generations today have all the knowledge in the world at their finger tips. They can gain the wisdom from us much earlier on in life and make better life decisions. For that, I am thankful that a place like TAM exists to help so many people before they waste years of their lives.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I can see the slow boiling frog analogy. Then one day there would have to be a wtf moment though. Man, I can't see it taking months or years. But good analogy.


Ragnar, I can say the same thing to myself. How could I have possibly put up with this crap of 1-4 times a month for 16 years..... with many months going without? But I did. If you don't have an outlet to tell you otherwise and you have a spouse telling you that everything that is happening is normal, well, you can be easily convinced. I try not to tell myself I'm ridiculously stupid for not realizing, and I'm not. This happens to large portion of the population and a lot of people simply don't talk about these things IRL. Thankfully, we can all talk about it in the open here. 

There has been A LOT in my life that I've come to grips with this year. Lots of introspection and changes in my marriage. All for the better. I'm personally doing my best to slowly but surely let go of my resentment and move on in marriage to better days. Easier said than done. 16 years of torment is a HARD grudge to let go of, but I know I'll be able to do it in time and I am very much in love with my wife. I know we can work through this.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Maybe it is because he has seen many, many adults in life long marriages that were very happy. Maybe he sees it as the pinnacle of family life. Maybe his religious beliefs compel him to desire it. Maybe he sees it as the ultimate level of commitment and dedication that he feels is important. It couldn't possibly be any of those, right?


It could be. But at what point would the connection between spouses be so loose that one or the other will grasp at at an outside bit of physical closeness.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Apparently it does, or men wouldn't be complaining about the loss of their lifestyle if they were to divorce. I guess some men prefer to live in a house rather than rent a studio apartment.


A house with no sex, and the realization that there will be no improvements? Nuts.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That sounds like the attitude of a man that will always end up in a sexless marriage. It is also a very toxic attitude about life in general. I guess some people simply aren't cutout for marriage.


Absolutely. It's been proved that men who are married generally are happier, healthier and live longer than men who are not. Clearly many men don't see marriage as a prison sentence.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I can see the slow boiling frog analogy. Then one day there would have to be a wtf moment though. Man, I can't see it taking months or years. But good analogy.


You get use to it. It's like a slow drip from a water faucet. At first it's annoying, it keeps you up at night. Then it just becomes part of the background noise.

As an ignorant and stupid young man, I just figured it was normal to have slow periods. Then it turns into a year before you know it. What do you do? Divorce never crosses your mind because it's anathema. Divorce only happens to those other people, not me. And afterall, there is always porn.

Little did I know she had some extracurricular partners, so atleast she was getting hers. But I guess that is besides the point. It sure was nice getting rid of her finally and having regular sex. Funny that you get married partly for regular sex and it's only after Divorce that the regular sex happens.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You get use to it. It's like a slow drip from a water faucet. At first it's annoying, it keeps you up at night. Then it just becomes part of the background noise.
> 
> As an ignorant and stupid young man, I just figured it was normal to have slow periods. Then it turns into a year before you know it. What do you do? Divorce never crosses your mind because it's anathema. Divorce only happens to those other people, not me. And afterall, there is always porn.
> 
> Little did I know she had some extracurricular partners, so atleast she was getting hers. But I guess that is besides the point. It sure was nice getting rid of her finally and having regular sex. Funny that you get married partly for regular sex and it's only after Divorce that the regular sex happens.


this is the one thing that kind of nags me in the recesses of my mind. If I EVER discover that there was cheating during the extreme low periods of sex in my marriage… I will absolutely lose my crap. Scorched earth. No R. No contact other than kid handoffs.

UpsideDownworld, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. It is hard enough to deal with the trauma of one really bad thing in a marriage, but to slap infidelity on top of a multi-year dead bedroom? That is insult to injury.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. It's been proved that men who are married generally are happier, healthier and live longer than men who are not. Clearly many men don't see marriage as a prison sentence.


Now, I'm not saying I see M as a prison, or referring to M being a prison. That's reaching a bit, kindly I'd rather this not be a who thinks M is a prison raise your hand thread.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Before I got married I lived in a studio apartment with all my stuff in moving boxes so I could throw it in my car and leave at the drop of a hat.
> 
> The state I am in now is so opposite to that it is insane.


Right, and why wouldn't you be happy to go back to that for freedom and at least the chance of being in a happy, sexual relationship?

If I am going to live on "hopium", I want it to be for finding a partner who enjoys sex as much as I do, instead of for staying with one who doesn't.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Right, and why wouldn't you be happy to go back to that for freedom and at least the chance of being in a happy, sexual relationship?
> 
> If I am going to live on "hopium", I want it to be for finding a partner who enjoys sex as much as I do, instead of for staying with one who doesn't.


Was prepared to pull the ripcord and do exactly that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You get use to it. It's like a slow drip from a water faucet. At first it's annoying, it keeps you up at night. Then it just becomes part of the background noise.
> 
> As an ignorant and stupid young man, I just figured it was normal to have slow periods. Then it turns into a year before you know it. What do you do? Divorce never crosses your mind because it's anathema. Divorce only happens to those other people, not me. And afterall, there is always porn.
> 
> Little did I know she had some extracurricular partners, so atleast she was getting hers. But I guess that is besides the point. It sure was nice getting rid of her finally and having regular sex. Funny that you get married partly for regular sex and it's only after Divorce that the regular sex happens.


This is just awful, and NEVER should have happened to you!


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You get use to it. It's like a slow drip from a water faucet. At first it's annoying, it keeps you up at night. Then it just becomes part of the background noise.
> 
> As an ignorant and stupid young man, I just figured it was normal to have slow periods. Then it turns into a year before you know it. What do you do? Divorce never crosses your mind because it's anathema. Divorce only happens to those other people, not me. And afterall, there is always porn.
> 
> Little did I know she had some extracurricular partners, so atleast she was getting hers. But I guess that is besides the point. It sure was nice getting rid of her finally and having regular sex. Funny that you get married partly for regular sex and it's only after Divorce that the regular sex happens.


Wow, our stories seem so similar. Except for the regular sex part. My current living arrangements don’t allow for that. I would not accept a sexless or unfulfilling marriage and I have two divorces to prove it. I don’t know how people do it, but we see so many on TAM that do. I felt “stuck” for years. Years I’ll never get back. All you can do is “unstuck” yourself. Changing another person is damn near impossible when they think everything is just fine and dandy.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> This is just awful, and NEVER should have happened to you!


Thanks, but it was awhile ago so I've since moved on. I think the breaking the news to our 7 year old was the hardest. That nearly broke my heart. I felt lots of guilt afterwards and I didn't even cheat!


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


I would imagine the answer lies in the fear of the unknown. The men that put up with it will give you all the excuses in the world: "staying for the kids", "everything else is great", "I love her, she's my soulmate" and all that crap but the truth is that there's a little voice telling them they can't get better and they listen intently to that voice.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thanks, but it was awhile ago so I've since moved on. I think the breaking the news to our 7 year old was the hardest. That nearly broke my heart. I felt lots of guilt afterwards and I didn't even cheat!


Your ex should have been feeling all the guilt.🤬


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mybabysgotit said:


> I would imagine the answer lies in the fear of the unknown. The men that put up with it will give you all the excuses in the world: "staying for the kids", "everything else is great", "I love her, she's my soulmate" and all that crap but the truth is that there's a little voice telling them they can't get better and they listen intently to that voice.


You can't have everything, where would you put it?

Dumping your current spouse for someone else is a roll of the dice. You'll almost certainly get a better sex life, because after all that was your goal. What else will you get?

A little crazy? Credit card or debt problems? A filthy roommate? An entitled princess with a platinum vagina? Or another person with whom your sex life will gradually decline until you are in the same place another decade down the road? 

To accept a sexless marriage is to implicitly state that sex is less important to you than at least one other thing you would have to endure in a divorce. I don't have to think too hard to conclude that some men would weigh that situation and decide it wasn't worth it.

"Get better" in one area does not necessarily translate to "get better" overall.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I was surprised that it took 1.5 pages to get to the most logical reason - and probably the one that happens the most.
> 
> Ignorance.


Naivety too, IMO.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Naivety too, IMO.


Based on my experiences before marriage, I didn't have any idea that sexual compatibility was a common problem.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I guess my thought to the original OP question was some folks (maybe myself included?) have done the research and see that maybe the grass is NOT greener elsewhere? And these are just my thoughts of course so I won't argue them to try to convince anyone...just typing out my opinion.

I base this on a few things.

- Between marriages I went out with many women (I think around 20 or so?). Had sex with many\most of them. But across the board I could tell sex was not important to most of them and they more or less just went along with it. I didn't catch on that any of them would be this wild and crazy woman in the sheets. And thats OK as they were all nice women its just when you reach the 45-50+ years, I would say sex is not important to some people. Many had very limited sexual experience but I won't go into graphic details. So while sex is likely important to those of you that have been married a while and claim a great sex life as its been part of your marriage, I am not sure many single people see sex as that important once they are a bit older in life? Just my experience of course. And sure some could say it was me and they weren't satisified sexually with me but I could tell they weren't into sex very much even before we got naked. Yet many of these women wanted to go on multiple dates as they said they enjoyed my company or I was fun to be around even after we had sex. But I could tell spending a day together for them was more of the goal than having sex again.

- Stats have shown that only 40% of married me and around 55% of married women are happy in their sex lives. Those numbers seem to reveal that even if someone leaves one low sex marriage they are not guaranteed to find a second one that is much better. Less than a 50% chance for guys more or less. Which leads to the final point.

- Finally I know a few people both men and women who left their long term marriages hoping for better (not just sex but better in other ways) and a number of them are miserable being single. Yeah I know not all single people are miserable but a few tell me they wished they had someone to go to dinner with or on vacation with or just talk to in the evening let alone someone to have sex with.

Those simple things are what keep many people from taking the plunge out of a marriage and venturing into the unknown. Of course everyone is different but I think age plays an important factor. A 30 year old in a sexless marriage sees the world in a different perspective than a 55 year old might.

Once again just my thoughts and I don't expect anyone to have to buy into them...just sharing my views.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Now, I'm not saying I see M as a prison, or referring to M being a prison. That's reaching a bit, kindly I'd rather this not be a who thinks M is a prison raise your hand thread.


Ok but its you who speaks of it that way.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Naivety too, IMO.


It happens for sure. It is embarrassing to admit. No one wants to think “how could I be stupid for so long?" But a lot of these issues simply aren’t discussed openly IRL - at least not where I live.

I’m thankful for a place like TAM. I came to a lot of my own conclusions over the years. Figured out a lot from my own experiences, but it is considerably easier when you have a wealth of knowledge and experiences to tap into. I think a lot of young adults could learn a lot by reading the forums here. I know I would have 20 years ago.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

_snicker_


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I've seen men stay in sexless LTR with no marriage as well. Women too.
> 
> *And the money reason just falls flat for me*. You will be spending that money on her and your kids anyway, either way...it's just in one scenario,* you are paying for a prison, and in the other, you are paying for your freedom.*


It's not that cut and dried.....

Sure, you will be spending money on her and kids, but now you have to create a whole new life for yourself...WAY more expensive....Plus, in most cases, the kids suffer after a divorce...Whether their parents are happy or not doesn't necessarily concern them...

But to answer the original question, there are a myriad of reasons why..

-They don't want to upset their lives and create the chaos that blowing up a life entails..
-Many guys can survive just fine with porn and their own hand...Some can't, but many can...Look at how many will do that with willing and capable wives/gf's..I predict as time and technology advances, you will see more widespread use/abuse of this aspect...
-Many are just getting laid on the street....Sex workers, side pieces, whatever....
-Some are just low drive period....It suits them..
-Some have rich wives that they aren't banging, but get the lifestyle...Women do this all the time, but some men do it too,...
-Don't want the stigma of being divorced...Its not as bad as it used to be, but some still see this as weakness, selfishness, or a general failure...

I am sure I have missed some reasons, but at the end of the day, people do what works for them...If they don't leave, then there is probably some ideological reasons why...


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


I wondered this too.

My exH didn't want to have sex after I asked him to be a bit more aggressive with me, it was like a switch that turned off. He completely avoided me after that, I got all kinds of "reasons" - ED, I'm tired, you're too much work (I'm not a fan of quickies). He didn't even want oral, absolutely nothing happened when I tried to get him in the mood. He preferred using porn and masturbating because it was easier. 

At one point, I was so frustrated, I asked if he was in the closet. He gave me some crap about sex being only for procreation (we decided not to have kids), it was always something. I accepted it for years because I thought we could find out way back to each other, we were crazy about each other once upon a time. Plus, I carried guilt for not being physically able when I was very sick, in the months leading to and after my surgeries. 

When I asked what we were doing together if we weren't having sex, he threw the times I wasn't physically able to at me and said it was my turn to be patient. He convinced me that was how married people ended up, it was normal. I suppressed my need to connect with another person and it wasn't good for me, I was depressed and unhappy, but I remained faithful. 

It wasn't until he treated me so badly at a particularly vulnerable time, I couldn't stand it anymore that I found out he'd been having an affair. Maybe he'd been doing that our entire marriage with other people, who knows? I never considered divorce without "good reason", lack of sex didn't seem like a good enough one and there was no physical abuse. 

It's easy to judge people for why they tolerate ****ty situations until you've been there and understand how it slowly becomes untenable. People make fun of "Hopium", but it's powerful. There's a reason hope is our greatest strength and weakness.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Exactly. They have determined it's worth it to stay and that is a choice regardless of the situation.


Yep, and as sad and unfair as their situation may be, at that point they're no longer a victim but a volunteer.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> It's not that cut and dried.....
> 
> Sure, you will be spending money on her and kids, but now you have to create a whole new life for yourself...WAY more expensive....Plus, in most cases, the kids suffer after a divorce...Whether their parents are happy or not doesn't necessarily concern them...
> 
> ...


Ok, sure...this makes some sense.

But then I'd like to know if you would understand someone staying with a spouse who spent all the money? Or who was controlling, or cold-hearted...? Or who refused to help at all with the daily chores/tasks? Or with someone who never wanted to talk to them?

Is staying married worth it in THOSE instances??

Because what I notice is that if someone doesn't meet their partner's emotional or financial needs, or companionship needs, that is a justifiable reason to end the relationship with NO compromise or understanding needed.

But for some reason, sexual needs aren't given the same importance to those same people.

People make excuses for not having sexual needs met, and even allow themselves to feel ashamed for HAVING sexual needs at all...but I rarely hear anyone say, "well, it's just money, let her do what she wants with it". Or, "well, your emotional needs aren't important unless he WANTS to meet them too".

And I'm wondering WHY that is.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Ok, sure...this makes some sense.
> 
> But then I'd like to know if you would understand someone staying with a spouse who spent all the money? Or who was controlling, or cold-hearted...? Or who refused to help at all with the daily chores/tasks? Or with someone who never wanted to talk to them?
> 
> ...


People do things for a variety of reasons, some make no sense(TO US)....That's the key...

I know a few guys that have wives they don't particularly care for, never have sex with, but get what they want out on the street...It may not even be sexual...Heck, I have had more than one admin assistant/office manager work for me that treated me awesome and who I would consider very close......Like a lot of guys they spend a lot, of time at work, and would see and interact with these women more ways than their wives...If you are a typical guy that is spending 10-14 hrs a day with a woman who (may or may not sexually) meets "your emotional needs" then that takes a lot of the misery out of it, I guess...

Maybe the reasons you aren't getting all of it(and this isn't a criticism, btw), is that you are approaching this from the mind of a woman...I didn't create this idea, but it's often said that men have a mastery of compartmentalization...In these cases, if you are good at compartmentalizing these aspects of your life, then what may seem unbearable from those on the outside is just fine for the guy that has it figured all out...


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

This article is a bit old, but it has an interest take on why marriages are experiencing less sex. The bottom line of it is that the less gender differentiation, the less sexual desire. Women are attracted to men that are men and constantly trying to do what you think she wants you to do ends up backfiring. 









Does a More Equal Marriage Mean Less Sex? (Published 2014)


He cooks, she cleans, they both work and take care of the kids. It’s the perfect egalitarian marriage. There’s just one problem.




www.nytimes.com


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

NorthernGuard said:


> Yep, and as sad and unfair as their situation may be, at that point they're no longer a victim but a volunteer.


What a BS way to avoid any empathy.

They aren't victims, they sure as heck aren't volunteers. They are men -- often good men -- trying to deal with their crappy situation in the best way they know how.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This article is a bit old, but it has an interest take on why marriages are experiencing less sex. The bottom line of it is that the less gender differentiation, the less sexual desire. Women are attracted to men that are men and constantly trying to do what you think she wants you to do ends up backfiring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interestngly, marriage lowers a man's testosterone. I remember reading a study that found men's testosterone rose after divorce.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

hamadryad said:


> Maybe the reasons you aren't getting all of it(and this isn't a criticism, btw), is that you are approaching this from the mind of a woman...I didn't create this idea, but it's often said that men have a mastery of compartmentalization...In these cases, if you are good at compartmentalizing these aspects of your life, then what may seem unbearable from those on the outside is just fine for the guy that has it figured all out...


Compartmentalization. Good call. That is exactly how I made it through.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> I wondered this too.
> 
> My exH didn't want to have sex after I asked him to be a bit more aggressive with me, it was like a switch that turned off. He completely avoided me after that, I got all kinds of "reasons" - ED, I'm tired, you're too much work (I'm not a fan of quickies). He didn't even want oral, absolutely nothing happened when I tried to get him in the mood. He preferred using porn and masturbating because it was easier.
> 
> ...


The frog in the pan of warming water sounds about right. Hope springs eternal until days become months become years.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> But for some reason, sexual needs aren't given the same importance to those same people.
> 
> And I'm wondering WHY that is.


I think culture has a lot to do with it. This thread was written with a man in mind and accepting a sexless or painfully low amount of sex marriage. One thing I recall seeing A LOT of growing up all the way until today is that men are "perverts" for having sex on the mind all the time as opposed to realizing that on average, that is just how we biologically work. There is pressure to make us feel that it is "wrong" to want it often. A lot of times it feels like we are looked at as animals or less than. 

There is also pressure from the equality people that women shouldn't do it if they don't want to. Somehow, a woman is less "strong and independent" if she pleases her man even if she isn't in the mood. Again, this is on average. I'm well aware of some women having a high sex drive and some men having a low sex drive. 

In the context of this thread, sexual needs will not be considered important in modern culture because men's needs is considered as something bad and patriarchy and all the fun buzz words. Most men will feel loved the most when they have sex. Most will have it as their #1 love language. 

The problem of course is that women and men have needs in a relationship - and it is typically the man that needs the sex the most. Not all the times, but it usually works out that way. Of course women love sex too, just typically not as often. Some do though, just like some men don't. 

What modern culture will drive home is that men need to help around the house more and help raise the kids more. I wholeheartedly agree. A lot of women I know feel loved and appreciated when the man offers help whether they do it on their own or ask their woman how can they be of help? I know for me personally, my wife definitely appreciates this and feels loved. Problem is, this is acceptable by our culture because women's needs are important. 

I personally feel a lot of satisfaction when I help out my wife get more things done around the house. It makes me feel good to make her feel loved. However, there are still plenty of times I don't want to do it - but I still do it anyway because it is important to show love and respect to my wife. She has more than earned it and I see her as my equal and she sees me the same way. 

The reverse is typically not offered to the man. A woman having sex even though she doesn't want to do it is considered taboo (from what I've observed). I see it is encouraged NOT to do this. It is considered old-fashioned and women who do this are considered less than. It's a shame. Either way, there are plenty of times my wife still will have passionate sex with me even though she isn't in the mood. Why? Same reason I help her out. Because it makes her feel good to make me feel loved. Then, there are times she doesn't want to have sex - but she still does it anyway because it is important to show love and respect to me. 

Does she have the right to turn down sex whenever she wants? Absolutely. 

I also have the right to turn down doing extra work around the house to relieve pressure off of her. 


However, doing this will destroy the marriage. Soooooo..... doing things for each other because you love each other tends to make the marriage work pretty well.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> The frog in the pan of warming water sounds about right. Hope springs eternal until days become months become years.


I spent over a decade like that, I thought everything else was good. I was trying to honor my commitment, "for better of worse". 

After all, do you abandon a spouse after being in an accident and can't perform anymore? Maybe some men feel the same.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world *would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years* *in a new M, or even later in a ltr M *?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W *but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.*
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?





UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It's all ignorance. *And then after the marriage, kids, mortgage, it's too late. You are caged. You made vows, you have mouths to support, you have duties to honor.* Even if you get rid of your wife, you still have those duties. The cage doesn't go away, it just moves. Might as well find a dark corner to slither into and take care of yourself.


I think that one thing ignored is that many guys can "compartmentalize" their lives. Also many women really do "love" (their definition) a man and yet can't find time or desire to have sex with him.

In my case prior to marriage I had some concerns about my wife from a sexual perspective. We discussed sex prior to marriage and I pointed out how important oral sex was to me. She explained how that was just too intimate prior to marriage but the nuns at the Catholic schools she had been partial raised in has explained to her how nothing after marriage was wrong between a husband and wife. I trusted this woman. I loved this woman. I thought she was a good person. I knew she "loved" me and that she was a basically good and honest person. We were married in the Catholic Church in a Sacramental Marriage, which is "for life."

Early in the marriage she explained how BJ's were gross and disgusting. I reminded her of what the nuns had told her and her promise to me. She told me that nuns had no idea how disgusting men were. At that point we still had sex often and she also promised me that she was saving the "kinky stuff" for later in our marriage to keep the flame of passion alive as we got older. I compartmentalized it and for the most part ignored it as the rest of the marriage was good.

As we had kids and got older, the financial responsibilities got huge. Even if I had wanted to leave, the responsibilities or the "cage" was there. I loved my children and didn't want to loose any chance to be with them. I also still loved my wife. However, after the kids, she became upset with her body and that changed our sex life a lot. She no longer would get naked in front of me. We still had vanilla regular sex on a regular basis, so I convinced myself this was a good life with a good woman and a good mother to our children.

Later the kids grew up and went to college. I had hoped that we would have more time for each other. However, the financial responsibility of paying for two kids in college (I didn't have to, but felt obligated to as a good father) became a huge burden. The sex got less, but i still viewed her as a good woman and wife. I did know that she loved me and we had vanilla sex, but a little less often.

Eventually, she started to withdraw from the marriage, emotionally and sexually. We were true empty nesters and our oldest was about to marry a wonderful woman. I remember he telling me about 4 months before our oldest son's marriage that she never wanted to have sex with me again, and her actions proved it. 

That was a wake-up call, but I didn't want to ruin my oldest son's wedding, so I held my anger inside. I decided that I really was ready for divorce if things didn't change fairly soon. However, I also wanted to try to save the marriage of about 38 years at that time. I also knew that there were probably things, such as decisions and actions on my part, that caused the failure of the marriage. I wanted to make sure that if I did divorce her, that I would not fall into the same cycle again. I wanted to heal myself and it I could also heal the marriage that would all be for the best as she was still the mother of my sons and a good business and financial partner and we shared many similar joys and hobbies.

I spent about a year and a half both working on myself and the marriage with the help of a really great sex therapist rebuilding our marriage. It took a lot, I changed a lot, learned what I really cared about her, how to make her feel cherished and loved. She also learned a lot about what was really important to me. We rebuilt the marriage. I learned that those lies she told me about BJ's and saving kinky sex for later, were things that she really believed she could do, but when the time came, she just couldn't do it, even though she thought she would have. But had she not committed to moving forward with a loving sex life, I would have divorced her. We defined what that loving sex life included and it did not include B.J's or kinky sex, but it did involve loving sex with emotional bonding twice a week. A year or so after we had reconciled she asked if I would have honestly divorced her over something a meaningless as sex. I explained it was not meaningless to me.

Again, I think some of us can compartmentalized the sexual aspect of marriage and separate it from all the other aspects and responsibilities of marriage. That allows us to put up with a lack of sex. We replace that with a duty or concern for children of other responsibilities.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> What a BS way to avoid any empathy.
> 
> They aren't victims, they sure as heck aren't volunteers. They are men -- often good men -- trying to deal with their crappy situation in the best way they know how.


Did you miss the part of my post where I agreed their situation is sad and unfair? That hardly lacks emphathy. I feel bad for those who have found themselves put in this position through no fault of their own. And I do think many of them are/were victims. They didn't sign up for sexless marriages and would never have married their spouse if they knew that's what they were in for. It got foisted upon them at some point with no input or agreement on their part.

But, once all the cards are on the table and they know they're in a sexless marriage with no hope of recovery and have weighed their options and decided to stay, be it for kids, lifestyle, or what have you, then yes, they're now volunteering to live in a sexless marriage. That is their choice. And, it's not just men living in these crappy situations. Plenty of women are in the exact same boat.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> I think that one thing ignored is that many guys can "compartmentalize" their lives. Also many women really do "love" (their definition) a man and yet can't find time or desire to have sex with him.
> 
> In my case prior to marriage I had some concerns about my wife from a sexual perspective. We discussed sex prior to marriage and I pointed out how important oral sex was to me. She explained how that was just too intimate prior to marriage but the nuns at the Catholic schools she had been partial raised in has explained to her how nothing after marriage was wrong between a husband and wife. I trusted this woman. I loved this woman. I thought she was a good person. I knew she "loved" me and that she was a basically good and honest person. We were married in the Catholic Church in a Sacramental Marriage, which is "for life."
> 
> ...


Good Lord. Kudos to you for hanging in there.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Soooooo..... doing things for each other because you love each other tends to make the marriage work pretty well.


You made a lot of good points in your post, but this really sums it all up in my mind. 

Yet, as you pointed out, society is pushing us away from that idea in a very one-sided way. 


I'm thankful for the adults I was around and the relationships I witnessed while growing up. They all showed incredible affection for each other. Sometimes it was a little too much PDA (you know, parents kissing = icky in a teenager's mind), but it normalized it for me. My mom and dad, grandparents, aunts and uncles all were unafraid to say and show they were sexually attracted and in love with their spouse. The few that didn't, got divorced and most went on to find another spouse they showed great attraction and love and got it in return. Same with my wife's family. Her parents were very affectionate with one another, even after a shouting match over something stupid her dad would pull her mom close, give her a kiss and tell her he loved her while giving her butt a little squeeze. They had date nights every week until he died. I see this as an integral part of being married and I don't understand why it seems to be under attack. It is really a happy way to live.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

NorthernGuard said:


> Did you miss the part of my post where I agreed their situation is sad and unfair? That hardly lacks emphathy. I feel bad for those who have found themselves put in this position through no fault of their own. And I do think many of them are/were victims. They didn't sign up for sexless marriages and would never have married their spouse if they knew that's what they were in for. It got foisted upon them at some point with no input or agreement on their part.
> 
> But, once all the cards are on the table and they know they're in a sexless marriage with no hope of recovery and have weighed their options and decided to stay, be it for kids, lifestyle, or what have you, then yes, they're now volunteering to live in a sexless marriage. That is their choice. And, it's not just men living in these crappy situations. Plenty of women are in the exact same boat.


Yeah. You said it was sad and unfair, then went on to say they volunteered for it. Not so much empathy, as a "sucks to be them" sentiment.

I wonder would you say the same to a person in a DV situation? I mean once they know they are faced with DV, are they no longer victims, but volunteers in the violence? Is that then their choice?


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## DoctorManhattan (Jan 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


Simply put, in my case we were taught by example, you stick to your partner no matter what. Growing up I saw mostly all married couples were miserable..
So you grow up thinking marriage is the end game. You have your childhood, your teenage years, then as an adult you have to get married and that's the end of that. 
One partner. Regardless if they're drunks, beaters, lazy, cheaters, mean, nice, loyal, whatever. 
There's no way out.
..............
My eyes opened up in my early 30s.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownButNotOut said:


> What a BS way to avoid any empathy.
> 
> They aren't victims, they sure as heck aren't volunteers. They are men -- often good men -- trying to deal with their crappy situation in the best way they know how.


BS right back at you.

There isn't a lack of empathy and she was responding to my post as I responded to someone else's.

If a man is going to complain about it but not do what is necessary to change anything, my sympathy dries right up.

I feel for people in tough situations but complaining with no intention of doing is a true waste of time.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownButNotOut said:


> Yeah. You said it was sad and unfair, then went on to say they volunteered for it. Not so much empathy, as a "sucks to be them" sentiment.
> 
> I wonder would you say the same to a person in a DV situation? I mean once they know they are faced with DV, are they no longer victims, but volunteers in the violence? Is that then their choice?


I'm very familiar with many DV cases and they do choose to stay. They are deranged in my opinion but they do choose to stay.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> I think that one thing ignored is that many guys can "compartmentalize" their lives. Also many women really do "love" (their definition) a man and yet can't find time or desire to have sex with him.
> 
> In my case prior to marriage I had some concerns about my wife from a sexual perspective. We discussed sex prior to marriage and I pointed out how important oral sex was to me. She explained how that was just too intimate prior to marriage but the nuns at the Catholic schools she had been partial raised in has explained to her how nothing after marriage was wrong between a husband and wife. I trusted this woman. I loved this woman. I thought she was a good person. I knew she "loved" me and that she was a basically good and honest person. We were married in the Catholic Church in a Sacramental Marriage, which is "for life."
> 
> ...


Absolutely. You are on the mark here.

my wife and I required IVF to have our children. It’s what I always wanted when I grew up. I wanted to have a loving wife and I wanted to be a dad. Those were my goals in life. When the doctors told us we wouldn’t be able to have our own children without IVF, I had a 2 second thought of planning my life no longer married to my wife. I wasn’t feeling loved. We had duty sex a couple of times a month and sometimes with none. Now we can’t have kids. I’m done. Dream over. My thought process was interrupted when my wife broke down and cried. I honestly thought she no longer cared about me. I didn’t think that she loved me any more. Sure, we got along fine, but I didn’t think she loved me.

when you wrote that your wife said, “I can’t believe you would divorce over something as meaningless as sex.” I started to feel my blood boil. Meaningless? What a F-ing insult!!! Curious, would your wife have considered sex meaningless if you had sex with another woman? Yeah…. That kinda smashes that argument REAL quick.

so yeah, In that moment when my wife broke down, I was shocked. I couldn’t believe it. I thought for sure she didn’t care about me. We were just going through the motions. She certainly didn’t love me. All of a sudden, she is crying because she desperately wanted to have kids with me. WOW! Could have fooled me. I guess she did actually love me.

so we went through 24 months of pure hell and heartbreak, but we finally had our kids. I then went into the second half of my dead bedroom years where I compartmentalized a situation that still hadn’t been resolved. I felt my wife did me a solid. I owed her for the pain and anguish of having our children. I ignored the elephant in the room for another 5 years or so before I started to detach from my wife as I started to prepare myself for divorce - because nothing in the end would make that elephant truly disappear. Thankfully, we have almost completely fixed it and are well on our way to having things be the way they should have been at the start.

but it is places like TAM that really helped me open myself up to new perspectives. As it concerns my children, it was actually @TXTrini that said something that truly stuck: I didn’t “owe” my wife more years of dead bedroom like she preferred just because she bore our children. My wife wanted our children just as much as I did.” It’s knowledge and perspective here from some truly amazing people that has helped me rebuild my marriage this year.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> BS right back at you.
> 
> There isn't a lack of empathy and she was responding to my post as I responded to someone else's.
> 
> ...


it is TOUGH to admit Failure to oneself. It’s actually one of my strengths: I don’t lie to myself. I hold myself accountable. Still, it ain’t easy.

it was me. I allowed my ridiculously long dead bedroom to continue. My wife created it. I allowed it. I had a multitude of reasons for allowing it, but I did nonetheless.

it wasn’t until a few years ago that I started to detach myself from her and prepare myself for a divorce. Before her 180, I was actually preparing for a life alone. Being by myself was a far cry better than being in a marriage with a couple rounds of duty sex per month. It wasn’t until I came here that I realized I have an even higher value than I had previously thought and being a bachelor again may not be all that bad.

regardless, my preference has always been my wife and I’m thankful that we are making it through so far - but it is going to take time to fully regain my trust. I won’t go through another decade and a half. She is not buying years with just this one very good year. We will conTinue to work together and have a good year every year.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> BS right back at you.
> 
> There isn't a lack of empathy and she was responding to my post as I responded to someone else's.
> 
> ...


We're not going to agree on this one.

I'm just going to point out Empathy != Sympathy.

I'd rather let the man complain. Let him at least get it out there, and see that there are others in his situation also struggling. Answer him with empathy. Maybe that little bit of comfort is enough to keep him above ground. But no, go ahead and hit him with being a 'volunteer', or weak, or lack of will, or any other belittling comment. Can't have a man complain.

More often, men do stay silent. They suffer alone, in isolation. That's the bigger tragedy than one finally trying to speak up.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Better question is why would a man get married, period.


For good company, sharing resources, lots of fun, and for always having a stupendous amount of splendid, varied and frequent shared sex together. Amongst the usual tax and other benefits.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> People do things for a variety of reasons, some make no sense(TO US)....That's the key...
> 
> I know a few guys that have wives they don't particularly care for, never have sex with, but get what they want out on the street...It may not even be sexual...Heck, I have had more than one admin assistant/office manager work for me that treated me awesome and who I would consider very close......Like a lot of guys they spend a lot, of time at work, and would see and interact with these women more ways than their wives...If you are a typical guy that is spending 10-14 hrs a day with a woman who (may or may not sexually) meets "your emotional needs" then that takes a lot of the misery out of it, I guess...
> 
> Maybe the reasons you aren't getting all of it(and this isn't a criticism, btw), is that you are approaching this from the mind of a woman...I didn't create this idea, but it's often said that men have a mastery of compartmentalization...In these cases, if you are good at compartmentalizing these aspects of your life, then what may seem unbearable from those on the outside is just fine for the guy that has it figured all out...


NO criticism taken, I always love reading your perspective!!


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Personal said:


> For good company, sharing resources, lots of fun, and for always having a stupendous amount of splendid, varied and frequent shared sex together. Amongst the usual tax and other benefits.


You want all that, just get a sugar baby and move your money to the Isle of Man.

Why get married? To provide a stable platform on which to raise your children. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything else is Disney fairy-tale garbage. Our grandparents knew that. And theirs before them.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> You want all that, just get a sugar baby and move your money to the Isle of Man.
> 
> Why get married? To provide a stable platform on which to raise your children. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything else is Disney fairy-tale garbage. Our grandparents knew that. And theirs before them.


I guess I'm living in that fairytale then.


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## NorthernGuard (Jul 29, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Yeah. You said it was sad and unfair, then went on to say they volunteered for it. Not so much empathy, as a "sucks to be them" sentiment.
> 
> I wonder would you say the same to a person in a DV situation? I mean once they know they are faced with DV, are they no longer victims, but volunteers in the violence? Is that then their choice?


Nope, not a "sucks to be them" sentiment at all. It's a "whether good or bad, we are responsible for the choices and decisions we make in this life and have to live with them", sentiment. And, word it however you like, but we're not living in the 1950's anymore where women had little agency and no choices, no options and no help to get out of DV situations. The choice to stay or leave is their decision to make, and in their hands. Help and support for victims of violence is readily available for those who need it and I would hope they'd utilize it, be they a man or woman.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> You want all that, just get a sugar baby and move your money to the Isle of Man.


I’ve been married for over 22 years to my splendid wife and I have enjoyed all of that throughout my marriage. That said my marital sex life is too hardcore for the likes of Disney, yet it is certainly fun.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DownButNotOut said:


> Why get married? To provide a stable platform on which to raise your children. Nothing more, nothing less.


The great thing about notions like this is how easy they are to refute.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

NorthernGuard said:


> Nope, not a "sucks to be them" sentiment at all. It's a "whether good or bad, we are responsible for the choices and decisions we make in this life and have to live with them", sentiment. And, word it however you like, but we're not living in the 1950's anymore where women had little agency and no choices, no options and no help to get out of DV situations. The choice to stay or leave is their decision to make, and in their hands. Help and support for victims of violence is readily available for those who need it and I would hope they'd utilize it, be they a man or woman.


Yes. It is a choice. But to dismiss it at that point is to ignore the many complexities that go into that choice. That is what I am saying is a complete lack of empathy for their situation. Instead, as in this thread, they are faced with dismissiveness at best, or belittling insults or worse.

You can see from the stories of men who found themselves in that situation in this thread some of the struggles. How it is often a slow slide. How by the time they find themselves in a sexless marriage they are at a point in the marriage where simply leaving is not easy, or sometimes even wise. How with the complaining, they search for ways to fix what they perceive as a problem. How the search for a fix isn't a matter of weeks, or months, but often years. Sometimes it works and things improve for a time. Sometimes they don't. But always, the other concerns are hanging over his head. His obligations, duties, responsibilities to his household, to his children. I don't know about you, but there isn't much I wouldn't do to protect my kids. There are a whole lot of crap sandwiches that are better than leaving them fatherless part time -- Fatherless part time at best.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> Apparently it does, or men wouldn't be complaining about the loss of their lifestyle if they were to divorce. I guess some men prefer to live in a house rather than rent a studio apartment.


Marriage didn't provide the benefit of a house- the hardworking breadwinner- most often the guy- purchased the house out of the proceeds of his hard work!

And the man is the one most likely to lose the house in divorce because wifey gets to stay there with the kids since she will likely be awarded primary physical custody..

If he never got married in the first place he'd have the house all to himself.

As another poster said- when you get married you bet against the house. Sure, sometimes the wheels line up and you get the big payoff and live happily ever after. But the odds are against that happening. Way too much downside, too much risk, not enough to gain. So what you get some tax benefits. That's sort of like the ante to the big bet that you're probably going to lose.

With domestic partnerships recognized in most states you can have most of the benefits of marriage without the risk.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Personal said:


> I’ve been married for over 22 years to my splendid wife and I have enjoyed all of that throughout my marriage. That said my marital sex life is too hardcore for the likes of Disney, yet it is certainly fun.


Good for you. I was married for 27.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Married people share one martgage or one rent.


You don't actually have to be married to share rent or a mortgage.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Trident said:


> You don't actually have to be married to share rent or a mortgage.


It can be a business arrangement.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I'm going to start having fun with you guys that talk like this and believe you can't have a say in your life regarding marriage.😉


Knock yourself out with your fun.

Thinking you can control another person in such a way that they will love you unconditionally and never even think about leaving you is a delusion.

Your feelings might not change in the next 50 years or whatever, but you never know what a person is capable of doing.

Sure you can have a say in getting married. That part's easy. Some meaningless vows, some flowers, a cake..

Divorce? When it happens- more than 50% of the time, it's not so easy, quite often you don't get much of a say in how it goes down and it takes lawyers and judges and a whole lot of time and money to get it sorted.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. It's been proved that men who are married generally are happier, healthier and live longer than men who are not. Clearly many men don't see marriage as a prison sentence.


Sure, except there are only about 2 of them.

The rest are divorced or worse yet stuck in bad marriages and are in worse shape than single guys who never got married in the first place.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Trident said:


> Thinking you can control another person in such a way that *they will love you unconditionally* and never even think about leaving you is a delusion.


I think I've identified your problem. If you want unconditional love, get a dog. Even then, the dog will expect to be fed and petted. Sorry, Peter Pan.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> this is the one thing that kind of nags me in the recesses of my mind. If I EVER discover that there was cheating during the extreme low periods of sex in my marriage… I will absolutely lose my crap. Scorched earth. No R. No contact other than kid handoffs.
> 
> UpsideDownworld, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. It is hard enough to deal with the trauma of one really bad thing in a marriage, but to slap infidelity on top of a multi-year dead bedroom? That is insult to injury.


That's exactly what I went through. The slow boiling frog thing of not feeling loved through sex enough for a long while, but dealing with it, because integrity. Then my ex became completely unable to have sex for medical reasons. I'd suggest other things but got turned down, and figured it would be depressing anyway. I just accepted this was now my lot in life, because my vows were for life, good health and bad, etc, and I certainly wasn't going to explode my children's family just because my ex medically couldn't have sex anymore. I thought we were great in all other aspects, the two of us against the world, and was still deeply in love. It was a sacrifice I made voluntarily.

Then one day I figured out that my ex had been cheating on me for over a year of that 'dead bedroom.' The 'medical reasons' had been a temporary thing, long since passed but still being used as a convenient ongoing excuse to put me off. Now we're divorced. I'll admit I did try reconciliation for a bit, due mainly to some hysterical bonding, but couldn't get over the ongoing lies and the discovery that most of the marriage had been lies.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> would





TXTrini said:


> I spent over a decade like that, I thought everything else was good. I was trying to honor my commitment, "for better of worse".
> 
> *After all, do you abandon a spouse after being in an accident and can't perform anymore?* Maybe some men feel the same.


Absolutely NOT! This man feels the same. I will stand with my wife until h3ll freezes over. In sickness and in health, You were honorable to honor your commitment.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Trident said:


> Knock yourself out with your fun.
> 
> Thinking you can control another person in such a way that they will love you unconditionally and never even think about leaving you is a delusion.
> 
> Your feelings might not change in the next 50 years or whatever, but you never know what a person is capable of doing.


I don’t know about you, but I’ve never bought the nonsensical idea of unconditional love. While I also don’t presume I can control others nor care to either.

As for myself having been divorced in one instance, I know the world certainly won’t come to an end if I get divorced again.

It’s okay if people’s feelings change, that’s just part of being human. I still have fond memories of past sexual relationships, including my first marriage, Yet all such relationships come to an end, and that’s also okay as well.

That said sharing sex matters to me more than it does to some others (like the men who stay in sexless marriages). So if my wife turns her shared sex with me tap off (which is entirely up to her), I will have no qualms in seeking other sexual partners to try to satisfy my sexual appetite. And that’s okay as well.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Blondilocks said:


> I think I've identified your problem. If you want unconditional love, get a dog.


You missed the part where I said expecting unconditional love from another person is a delusion.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Personal said:


> I don’t know about you, but I’ve never bought the nonsensical idea of unconditional love.


Me neither. But it seems that's exactly what the parties are expecting when they exchange their meaningless vows that are broken more often than not. You know, the ones that say love each other "til death do them part", no matter what happens- until it actually happens.

"Marriage is the deepest level of commitment!" all they proponents say. Until one or both want out, then it isn't anymore. Some exchange "life long" vows over and over again and each time they marry, "This is the one!". 

Sure it is..


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I’d say about 20% of TAMers are happy in their marriages. 80% are miserable and are white knuckling it. In line with the statistics of the overall population. Cooper wrote in his book that a survey found that only about 12% of the married population were in marital bliss. 88% are divorced or unhappy or meh. House odds? Not a chance. The casino has only a 54/47 house advantage in blackjack. The marital game is rigged that almost nobody wins….until divorce.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> I’d say about 20% of TAMers are happy in their marriages. 80% are miserable and are white knuckling it. In line with the statistics of the overall population. Cooper wrote in his book that a survey found that only about 12% of the married population were in marital bliss. 88% are divorced or unhappy or meh. House odds? Not a chance. The casino has only a 54/47 house advantage in blackjack. The marital game is rigged that almost nobody wins….until divorce.


Happy to be in the 12% or 20% whatever. Not sure who "Cooper" is ( Billy's fictional husband on NetFlix?) or how he collected these statistics for his "book". Evidently the book needed some "data" to confirm it's predetermined conclusions. Only a few of us happy people post to TAM, and doubt many happy people are responding to some random guy's polling.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Trident said:


> Me neither. But it seems that's exactly what the parties are expecting when they exchange their meaningless vows that are broken more often than not. You know, the ones that say love each other "til death do them part", no matter what happens- until it actually happens.
> 
> "Marriage is the deepest level of commitment!" all they proponents say. Until one or both want out, then it isn't anymore. Some exchange "life long" vows over and over again and each time they marry, "This is the one!".
> 
> Sure it is..


I don't think marriage means unconditional love, that is for your children. Wedding vows are to love, honor and respect or some variation of that. Those are the conditions. The goal is to stay true to those vows until death. Everyone doesn't make it to that goal, but we all try. Do you avoid everything where the goal is difficult? That sounds like an unfulfilled life.

Marriage is the deepest level of commitment in a relationship. Any commitment or contract can be broken, especially if the conditions are broken. Divorce is difficult, by design. Marriage is the deepest level of commitment after all, so it shouldn't be easy to dissolve.



RebuildingMe said:


> I’d say about 20% of TAMers are happy in their marriages. 80% are miserable and are white knuckling it. In line with the statistics of the overall population. Cooper wrote in his book that a survey found that only about 12% of the married population were in marital bliss. 88% are divorced or unhappy or meh. House odds? Not a chance. The casino has only a 54/47 house advantage in blackjack. The marital game is rigged that almost nobody wins….until divorce.


I'm with @Rus47 in the 12% or 20% or both. I'm skeptical of surveys of this kind. They are likely biased by the author who is trying to make a point. There is another survey that says the complete opposite _The vast majority (86 percent) described their marriages as either “very happy” (24 percent), “extremely happy” (51 percent), or “perfect” (11 percent). _Those seem like pretty good odds to me. Which survey do we trust?





__





What percentage of marriages are happy? – MV-organizing.com







www.mvorganizing.org


----------



## BIL310 (Apr 26, 2017)

Personally I stayed for the kids. 

Couldn’t bear to become one of those part time Father’s who take their kids to McDonald’s on a weekend.

I ended up getting my needs met elsewhere.

An older married couple friends of ours were talking the other day and the Wife said there was nothing wrong with sex twice in the last 8 weeks. I reminded her that a sexless marriage is classed as 12 times a year or less and she replied that I read too much!

Her husband then later on whilst we were on our own said they’ve not doing anything for 2 months and she’s in control over the frequency etc. Little does his Wife know he’s been going down the local brothel to get his needs met there instead he told me.

His wife is his business partner and that would be a messy divorce.

My wife’s been told she’s got 12 weeks to book her ideas up. I’m getting in shape and I expect more reciprocal responses when I initiate. Don’t threaten me was the response.

Let’s see what the next 12 weeks bring. A sixpack for sure!


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Uh. @BigDaddyNY That link isn't a survey. It's just an assertion with no cited source.

But I believe that is based on a Quora question, not an actual survey. If you think TAM is an unreliable source due to self-selection, then Quora is just as bad.

In fact 86% is a patently ludicrous number if you think about it for more than half a second. A marital happiness rate could never be above a divorce rate. By definition those were not happy marriages. Then the soon-to-be-divorced marriages are certainly not happy either. And of course there are those who are unhappy but have chosen to remain married for various reasons -- like the OP's topic here.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Uh. @BigDaddyNY That link isn't a survey. It's just an assertion with no cited source.
> 
> But I believe that is based on a Quora question, not an actual survey. If you think TAM is an unreliable source due to self-selection, then Quora is just as bad.
> 
> In fact 86% is a patently ludicrous number if you think about it for more than half a second. A marital happiness rate could never be above a divorce rate. By definition those were not happy marriages. Then the soon-to-be-divorced marriages are certainly not happy either. And of course there are those who are unhappy but have chosen to remain married for various reasons -- like the OP's topic here.


I think the 86% is out there too. My point was that you can find almost any study, article or whatever, on the internet that will support your point of view, so take them all with a grain of salt.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Let's also not forget, that there's also a whole bunch of men (#not all), who loathe the idea of splitting assets and or having to contribute to child support etc. That some (#not all), will suck up a sexless marriage, to avoid having to pull the divorce trigger.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Trident said:


> Knock yourself out with your fun.
> 
> Thinking you can control another person in such a way that they will love you unconditionally and never even think about leaving you is a delusion.
> 
> ...


I've seen it all including having friends, including a very close friend, take themselves out.

I don't smoke unicorn farts. I'm brutally and unfortunately grounded in reality.

I had three friends get divorced last year due to their wives cheating.

I know first hand how bad it is and has been for decades.

I also, as an aside, wouldn't have married any of the women my friends did. Two of them were hot, one was just a b1tch and I didn't get good sexual integrity vibes from any.

I have one friend who is still married (obviously not a good percentage) and I believe his wife is a good woman who is worth marriage.

I'm also with a good woman obviously.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Personal said:


> Let's also not forget, that there's also a whole bunch of men (#not all), who loathe the idea of splitting assets and or having to contribute to child support etc. That some (#not all), will suck up a sexless marriage, to avoid having to pull the divorce trigger.


If you mean that those men feel financially trapped in their marriage, so do what they can to make the best of their situation then sure.

If you mean those losers just stick around because they don't want to pay up then we're back to shaming men, and that IMHO is a pile of BS.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> Let's also not forget, that there's also a whole bunch of men (#not all), who loathe the idea of splitting assets and or having to contribute to child support etc. That some (#not all), will suck up a sexless marriage, to avoid having to pull the divorce trigger.


I couldn't care less about the money, although it would have been financially harder, putting the kids at disadvantage too. The reason I stayed was not to see another man raising my children. I have succeeded, now I can do my own thing.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I couldn't care less about the money


#notallmen


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I couldn't care less about the money, although it would have been financially harder, putting the kids at disadvantage too. The reason I stayed was not to see another man raising my children. I have succeeded, now I can do my own thing.


I've said/asked this before. As a non sexual person, why did you believe she would be able to rope in a husband #2?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Personal said:


> #notallmen


Whadda you got against tall men?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Personal said:


> Let's also not forget, that there's also a whole bunch of men (#not all), who loathe the idea of splitting assets and or having to contribute to child support etc. That some (#not all), will suck up a sexless marriage, to avoid having to pull the divorce trigger.


Some of us men who are divorced are actually better off financially. It all depends on how hard you’re willing to fight, how good your lawyer is, how fair the judge is and how crazy the mother of your children is. A lot of things have to fall into place for a dad getting divorced.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> I've said/asked this before. As a non sexual person, why did you believe she would be able to rope in a husband #2?


She bait 'n switched once, right?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Assuming there is at least adequate sex before and early in marriage, when it declines a lot there is - at first - hope and optimism that things will return to the previous "normal." When it doesn't, optimism dies first. _Eventually_ hope also dies. After that there can be many reasons for staying, including fear of not doing better if you leave, fear of poverty if you don't have enough income after potentially paying alimony/child support, or even fear of how others will perceive you.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The goal is to stay true to those vows until death. Everyone doesn't make it to that goal, but we all try. Do you avoid everything where the goal is difficult? That sounds like an unfulfilled life.


I avoid unreasonable goals that many or even most never obtain. Chasing them sounds like a wasted life.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> Assuming there is at least adequate sex before and early in marriage, when it declines a lot there is - at first - hope and optimism that things will return to the previous "normal." When it doesn't, optimism dies first. _Eventually_ hope also dies. After that there can be many reasons for staying, including fear of not doing better if you leave, fear of poverty if you don't have enough income after potentially paying alimony/child support, or even fear of how others will perceive you.


I've found always being a married man staying an independent agent, confident in being financially solid, physically strong, healthy, and emotionally able to adapt immediately to multiple potential changing circumstances keeps ones mind, body and future outlook on life in a great and positive state.

One is a better H for it, and a better man, not ever living in fear of change if he either decides change is needed or change is thrust upon him.

He knows he's good should he have to take any of a variety of actions and can act immediately if needed because his resources stay in perpetual readiness.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> I've found always being a married man staying an independent agent, confident in being financially solid, physically strong, healthy, and emotionally able to adapt immediately to multiple potential changing circumstances keeps ones mind, body and future outlook on life in a great and positive state.
> 
> One is a better H for it, and a better man, not ever living in fear of change if he either decides change is needed or change is thrust upon him.
> 
> He knows he's good should he have to take any of a variety of actions and can act immediately if needed because his resources stay in perpetual readiness.


I think there is something to the idea of being in a position of being able to kick the woman to the curb, without trying to control her, that helps keep the marriage stable.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I think there is something to the idea of being in a position of being able to kick the woman to the curb, without trying to control her, that helps keep the marriage stable.


That's the condensed version, yes, the best part is within the relationship one keeps the knowledge one is in that relationship by choice, not lack of choices. It keeps things solid. I honestly foster that same in dear W because I want her to have that same feeling of being present because she wants to be, not because she feels she has to be.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

CountryMike said:


> That's the condensed version, yes, the best part is within the relationship one keeps the knowledge one is in that relationship by choice, not lack of choices. It keeps things solid. I honestly foster that same in dear W because I want her to have that same feeling of being present because she wants to be, not because she feels she has to be.


As long as you're cool with paying for another man to raise your kids, you do you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personal said:


> #notallmen


yes, I know... but I've never been the materialistic type. Money is money. You earn it, you use it, you lose it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I've said/asked this before. As a non sexual person, why did you believe she would be able to rope in a husband #2?


She can be sexual if she wants to. She was very sexual at the beginning of our relationship. But because of her mental issues and the mistakes I made following her partial disclosure of the severity of the issues, we got to the point of no return. So, I know she can be sexual, so why risk it? There's also lots of men in this world who don't care much about sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DownButNotOut said:


> She bait 'n switched once, right?


She didn't bait and switch me. Her mental issues got gradually worse and she didn't reveal the severity of them to me because not talking about your issues is a classic trait of the illness. But I didn't know this, so I got it completely wrong, behaved "badly" and she detached.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> As long as you're cool with paying for another man to raise your kids, you do you.


Are you cool with that? Certainly you aren't fool enough to think I would be as apparently you're insinuating so. Bonehead.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

CountryMike said:


> Are you cool with that? Certainly you aren't fool enough to think I would be as apparently you're insinuating so. Bonehead.


That's what you choose if your choice is to end your marriage with kids.

What do you think happens when you kick the mother of your children out? Bonehead.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CountryMike said:


> That's the condensed version, yes, the best part is within the relationship one keeps the knowledge one is in that relationship by choice, not lack of choices. It keeps things solid. I honestly foster that same in dear W because I want her to have that same feeling of being present because she wants to be, not because she feels she has to be.


That's the case in my current marriage. My _ex_ chose not to have sex, so I chose to leave. I was in a good position to do so and moved on quickly.


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## g62wolf (Oct 5, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> As long as you're cool with paying for another man to raise your kids, you do you.


you don't pay other man , you stick around until kids are grown up. then goodbye, parting with asset, money is easy. people are dying for freedom, you don't even have to die. oh, is she sorry and lonely now


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

g62wolf said:


> you don't pay other man , you stick around until kids are grown up. then goodbye, parting with asset, money is easy. people are dying for freedom, you don't even have to die. oh, is she sorry and lonely now


Exactly my point. People here though try to shame the man that suffers through a sexless marriage for years until his kids are grown. There's all this talk of "I'd give her a month, two at most, and I'd be gone", or "He just doesn't want to pay child support", I've even seen comments that "for the kids" isn't even a legitimate reason. A lot of folks here could use a little less solipsism and a little more empathy.

The bottom line is if you pull the exit handle while your kids are little, when she finds a new guy you'll be footing the bill for him to raise them. Heck, if he's solid she could even quit her job to be a SAHM for him and go back to family court to get your support payments upped. I've seen it happen.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> That's what you choose if your choice is to end your marriage with kids.
> 
> What do you think happens when you kick the mother of your children out? Bonehead.


That's obvious sh!t. A man with his affairs in order as I stated will be first to employ lawyers to get custody of kids and go scorched earth to make sure kids keep my last name, and I'll still be ever so present in their lives.

Wife goes. Kids stay with me. Shark lawyers will earn their dollars. The W would be kicked out sans kids.
Make some argument that doesn't contain stating obvious and you may get more traction in trying to detract or just naysay to throw out a word jumble. Bonehead.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

CountryMike said:


> That's obvious sh!t. A man with his affairs in order as I stated will be first to employ lawyers to get custody of kids and go scorched earth to make sure kids keep my last name, and I'll still be ever so present in their lives.
> 
> Wife goes. Kids stay with me. Shark lawyers will earn their dollars. The W would be kicked out sans kids.
> Make some argument that doesn't contain stating obvious and you may get more traction in trying to detract or just naysay to throw out a word jumble. Bonehead.


Not always in states like Florida which are VERY wife\mom friendly. Especially if it ever got out the guy was bailing due to lack of sex. I know the courts don't ask that but the guy better be sure to have never stated it previously or tried to schedule any sex therapist or anything discoverable by law in the divorce or he is going to regret it.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Not always in states like Florida which are VERY wife\mom friendly. Especially if it ever got out the guy was bailing due to lack of sex. I know the courts don't ask that but the guy better be sure to have never stated it previously or tried to schedule any sex therapist or anything discoverable by law in the divorce or he is going to regret it.


Not always, and Fl is changing, a guy with means has a good chance to keep his kids, due to todays social and PC climate. The very equality/woke/awareness and immediate publicity in biased obvious circumstances have widely opened that door.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Let me know how that works for you. You might want to get a little better info on how family court works. You can start with 50/50 is about the best you can hope for. The naivety is stunning. Bonehead.


My experience comes from two guys I personally know that have successfully recently been awarded full custody of their kids in horrible divorces, and two family members who are lawyers one in family law after being with State of Fl dept of family and child services for 10 years and one with the state AG office for 20 yrs.

Try again. You don't know it all. Your hubris knows no limits. Bonehead.

Now, I'm being entertained, so no hard feelings.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Truth?


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Truth?
> 
> View attachment 79711


Ha! Almost choked on my dr. Pepper when this loaded.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

CountryMike said:


> My experience comes from two guys I personally know that have successfully recently been awarded full custody of their kids in horrible divorces, and two family members who are lawyers one in family law after being with State of Fl dept of family and child services for 10 years and one with the state AG office for 20 yrs.
> 
> Try again. You don't know it all. Your hubris knows no limits. Bonehead.
> 
> Now, I'm being entertained, so no hard feelings.


Hubris. Hubris is thinking you can beat the system because someone else did.

You should ask those 2 lawyers for some war stories about more normal outcomes.


----------



## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?
> 
> I truly would like to here more on this, because I cannot for the life of me understand a guy that has a good W but she's always got an excuse for no sex, which makes her a not good W.
> 
> Part two I suppose; what makes in even conceivable to a W to believe that H will be happy and ACCEPT there's no sex?


My first marriage was like that. We were both virgins when we got married. We had been brainwashed by the church and religious nutcase parents that sex before marriage was bad and divorce was against gods will. Of course when we got married these same people never told us anything about sex or what to do or how to have a good sex life in marriage. Our wedding night sucked. It consisted of me having sex with my wife (missionary position), she just lay there, and then rolling over and going to sleep. I knew no better. This was in the very early 1970's so there was no internet to teach me anything. I thought she got all the satisfaction she needed out of sex by me having sex with her. She also complained that she "hurt down there" and continued to hurt during the next week when I had sex with her. Needless to say she hated sex and rarely would allow me to do it to her. She only wanted sex when she decided she wanted another baby. After our 4th baby she told me that she never wanted to have sex ever again. That was in our 8th year of marriage. I spent the next 10 years in a sexless marriage and had to turn to masturbation and mens magazines to relieve myself. I even thought about cheating on her and man I wanted to but the brainwashing was to strong so I stayed true to what little marriage I had left. I grew to hate her and hate the marriage but due to the brainwashing I thought I was stuck with her and it.
She got depressed and gained over 400 pounds so even if she had wanted sex, I would not have touched her since seeing her naked made me want to vomit. I finally ended up in a psyche ward due to major depression and it was there I was finally deprogrammed and told her I wanted a divorce. She did not want a divorce and pitched a royal fit "because she loved me". I asked her where that love was all those years I wanted sex. I basically forced her to sign the papers and got rid of her. So that is why I accepted little to no sex for most of my marriage.
Man I wish I had divorced her at the 8 year mark. All the sex I missed out on because of the stupid church brainwashing. That is why I am now an agnostic.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> This is an interesting thought. I always perceived it as a lack of will to get what they need.
> 
> I'm wondering if there isn't something to this in at least some of the men.
> 
> It's thought provoking at least.


Perhaps, but I think most of the time it’s just weakness and passiveness, then maybe conditioning after a while.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownButNotOut said:


> Let me know how that works for you. You might want to get a little better info on how family court works. You can start with 50/50 is about the best you can hope for. The naivety is stunning. Bonehead.


Well name calling will get you banned so maybe everyone should back off of that.

I'm not taking sides but he is somewhat correct.

I have a friend who had his wife cheat openly last year and I advised him and he followed my advice.

She didn't work and he made a solid six figures.

He got full custody and she is paying child support.

People who plan and act do a little better.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Perhaps, but I think most of the time it’s just weakness and passiveness, then maybe conditioning after a while.


I wonder if strength of will and sex drive could be related in some of these cases?

I know a bunch of anecdotal arguments are coming.😋


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I wonder if strength of will and sex drive could be related in some of these cases?
> 
> I know a bunch of anecdotal arguments are coming.😋


Hmm, I’ve heard there’s a male hormone that might be linked to both of those…


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> Well name calling will get you banned so maybe everyone should back off of that.
> 
> I'm not taking sides but he is somewhat correct.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure the Boneheads were just taking the piss. Mine were at least. Or there's the 10-year-old response of "He started it". 

Those outcomes haven't been my experience. One buddy of mine couldn't get custody of his son, and his ex-wife was a junkie living in a drug house. Another's ex took his kids across the country, and there was nothing he could do about it. He hasn't seen them in a decade.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Hmm, I’ve heard there’s a male hormone that might be linked to both of those…


Now that is interesting.😉


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownButNotOut said:


> Pretty sure the Boneheads were just taking the piss. Mine were at least. Or there's the 10-year-old response of "He started it".
> 
> Those outcomes haven't been my experience. One buddy of mine couldn't get custody of his son, and his ex-wife was a junkie living in a drug house. Another's ex took his kids across the country, and there was nothing he could do about it. He hasn't seen them in a decade.


Yup. I've seen too much of that crap which is why I got my friend to follow my advice and he was as clinical as a surgeon and ended her delusions.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Hmm, I’ve heard there’s a male hormone that might be linked to both of those…


The NK3 Receptor Antagonist ESN364


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Whenever you see a situation that doesn't match your perception of life. You automatically go to because he is simply ****ed up. That's not even trying to understand.


That happens a lot here, regrettably.

I’d say TAM is too often a spectator sport, used by fans to make themselves feel superior to those actually in the ring. Except said fans aren’t even paying attention to the actual people in the ring.

I stayed because I chose to stay. I chose to stay, in part, because I tried very hard to honor my hierarchy of values, which included selfishly occupying space and time in my kids’ lives, leaving no stone unturned looking for solution, making sure this person I cared about had every nudge I could give her to fix her issues, some of which she might as well been born with and some I knew she had going in, making sure I did a good job trying to fix my issues because that’s the kind of guy I want to be for myself and whomever I spend my time with, and looking for a good time to exit. Then **** got real, life and death in the balance kind of real, and almost immediately after financial setbacks hit hard, and in the midst of a near enough perfect storm the ice began to thaw.

Was fear a factor, too? Of course. Some of those fears reflected reasonably realistic expectations of trade offs between things I valued and did not. Some fears were unrealistic. Does that mean I’m weak? I don’t think so. Who is keeping score, and why would they matter?

I am certain it took strength and integrity to my values. All of I that I could muster. And I’ve emerged stronger and wiser, and even more committed to living by honoring myself and my chosen values.

I think some here should ask themselves if they really know what they are talking about, from deep personal experience. If not, then maybe it’s time to ask oneself what they get out of judging strangers whose reported experience is different then theirs.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I can't let this go.😁
> 
> I got married because I'm a prime man, alpha male, Chad, etc. and I can handle my ****, know how to select a grown ass woman and how to keep her and require her to work to keep me as well.
> 
> The first part is a bit tongue in cheek but I'm going to start having fun with you guys that talk like this and believe you can't have a say in your life regarding marriage.😉


I don’t see any humor here. I’d like to think you really care to help people see they have power to make choices in their lives, and improve their situation for themselves.

But, that first part is insulting and arrogantly assumes any cards dealt you could have played better because you da man, and such a good one.

I don’t understand why someone confident and alpha would have to remind others of his superiority. So maybe it just hadn’t occurred to you some people might take those words as kicking a fellow while he is down.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I don’t see any humor here. I’d like to think you really care to help people see they have power to make choices in their lives, and improve their situation for themselves.
> 
> But, that first part is insulting and arrogantly assumes any cards dealt you could have played better because you da man, and such a good one.
> 
> I don’t understand why someone confident and alpha would have to remind others of his superiority. So maybe it just hadn’t occurred to you some people might take those words as kicking a fellow while he is down.


Take some time and get to know me. Those labels are all from outside and definitely used tongue in cheek by me. 

I'm sympathetic and empathetic to those in pain or trying to overcome obstacles. I've also observed many that make silly, oversimplified arguments that paint me in a certain light (that has a hint of truth but misses most of it) and women with a broad and highly inaccurate brush.

My beginning comments are a silly response to a silly attitude.

I've literally seen about the worst that can happen when women have abused men and I am still convinced that a lot of women are good and solid or near being solid if men could simply be men.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I am still convinced that a lot of women are good and solid or near being solid if men could simply be men.


Yes but that doesn’t leave much room for victim-minded complaining or self-righteous martyrdom.


----------



## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Take some time and get to know me. Those labels are all from outside and definitely used tongue in cheek by me.
> 
> I'm sympathetic and empathetic to those in pain or trying to overcome obstacles. I've also observed many that make silly, oversimplified arguments that paint me in a certain light (that has a hint of truth but misses most of it) and women with a broad and highly inaccurate brush.
> 
> ...


I’ve been here a very long time, and by now have read hundreds, probably thousands, of your posts. FWIW, the humor there was lost on me, and I wouldn’t have caught that you were at least at least partially trying to be funny if you hadn’t mentioned “tongue in cheek”. Your value might not have been delivered to the ones that might have needed it. Take what you want from that.


Not directed at you —

I think I figured out part of what troubles me about this thread. IIRC, The question was about why men would ever stay in a sexless marriage for month or years. Some here are answering based on years of self reflection having lived that experience. In response, those who haven’t walked a tenth of a mile in those shoes and proudly claim they never would be so weak to attempt to do so, in response say effectively “that’s not a good reason” or “no that couldn’t be it”…. “That’d be insane.” For the record, I haven’t heard many claiming the reasons were good; maybe some claiming they seemed good at the time or for a time, or seemed like they had potential to work out.

Hence my point about this being for the spectators, who don’t seem to care to listen.

The other concern is there is a lot of talk here about MGTOW. What that has to do with reasons one stayed in a marriage I have no idea.

I have always been convinced there are good women out there, and that my wife is very good in many ways. Where our relationship has fallen short, by her or my actions, my belief has been the potential for redemption has always been there. In the wrong hands, such optimism can lead one to tolerate too much, some beyond the pale. It takes a sophisticated awareness to navigate that in a more optimal way, and that awareness takes time to acquire. I respect those giving it their best shot.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Yes but that doesn’t leave much room for victim-minded complaining or self-righteous martyrdom.


If you mean me, I’d appreciate it if you could clarify how so.

I like to think by this point I have recognized I have and have always had agency, I’ve made my choices, they worked out or didn’t. And I didn’t die. Things have happened to improve, some because of actions I took, some because others and circumstances changed. And I will continue choose based on my accumulated experience.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

ConanHub said:


> I've literally seen about the worst that can happen when women have abused men and I am still convinced that a lot of women are good and solid or near being solid if men could simply be men.


... and women could simply stop trying to be men.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

IMO, no one has to justify why they decide to stay....That's their own personal journey...And as they say, "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" before ripping or mocking them for it...

I would, however, wonder why then would they go to the extent to complain about it and seek some kind of assistance or understanding...The options are pretty clear, albeit none of them are necessarily easy...

Staying for the sake of the kids is IME, most of the reasons why a lot of guys do it...No good dad will want to see his kids suffer, because he isn't having sex with their mother....But then most of those guys have figured out a way to get by until that time inevitably comes...What they decide to do is on them...and good for them, I say....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> That happens a lot here, regrettably.
> 
> I’d say TAM is too often a spectator sport, used by fans to make themselves feel superior to those actually in the ring. Except said fans aren’t even paying attention to the actual people in the ring.


I know that I have no further interest in providing more punching bag options for wayward spouse rhetoric because of the sport that is practiced in the infidelity forum, and I'm guessing that I'm not alone.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> I’ve been here a very long time, and by now have read hundreds, probably thousands, of your posts. FWIW, the humor there was lost on me, and I wouldn’t have caught that you were at least at least partially trying to be funny if you hadn’t mentioned “tongue in cheek”. Your value might not have been delivered to the ones that might have needed it. Take what you want from that.
> 
> 
> Not directed at you —
> ...


You have been around a while and I think you do know what I'm about.

I'm having fun with a ridiculously simplified attitude/outlook by making ridiculously simplified remarks. 

The remarks I was responding to were definitely not delivered by you.

Men in these situations that really want input, help and ideas will get them from me fo whatever it's worth to them.

Men who dismiss everything, paint everyone with oversimplified colors and/or don't want input but just want to complain without doing anything about it...... Well maybe I'm just giving them a little well earned sarcasm.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownButNotOut said:


> ... and women could simply stop trying to be men.


I would advise staying away from those.😁


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Also @PieceOfSky , what's your take on the post I was responding to?

Any criticism or correction come to mind?

I found it to be somewhat belligerent in tone and completely unhelpful.

I understand he was only speaking from his very limited and individual experience.

He could start to understand that his experience is not even close to all encompassing.

He lashed out with a narrow view and I responded (tongue in cheek) with another.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> I’ve been here a very long time, and by now have read hundreds, probably thousands, of your posts. FWIW, the humor there was lost on me, and I wouldn’t have caught that you were at least at least partially trying to be funny if you hadn’t mentioned “tongue in cheek”. Your value might not have been delivered to the ones that might have needed it. Take what you want from that.
> 
> 
> Not directed at you —
> ...


Very well said - from a fellow long term sufferer, whose plug has been pulled and put out of his misery...


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## g62wolf (Oct 5, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> That's obvious sh!t. A man with his affairs in order as I stated will be first to employ lawyers to get custody of kids and go scorched earth to make sure kids keep my last name, and I'll still be ever so present in their lives.
> 
> Wife goes. Kids stay with me. Shark lawyers will earn their dollars. The W would be kicked out sans kids.
> Make some argument that doesn't contain stating obvious and you may get more traction in trying to detract or just naysay to throw out a word jumble. Bonehead.


even with lawyers you still end on loosing side. she can mess them in those weekends, summers. 
time will come to get it right. kids respect me because i did hang around until they were done, have complete understanding what their mother was/is. i have told her from start what will happen, she did not take it seriously enough. i had beautiful years after ( until my second passed away ), path i took was worth it.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> ... and women could simply stop trying to be men.


True. But which one is within your span of control?

I can’t control how women operate, but I can learn to understand it, and control how I operate to affect the relationship and life outcomes I want. 
And since women tend to be receptive / reactive, strong masculine energy in men will usually influence / elicit greater femininity from women.

The alternative would be for men to not take ownership of what we can control, wallow in poor outcomes and just complain about how women should be - but that’s best left to the MGTOW types


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DudeInProgress said:


> True. But which one is within your span of control?
> 
> I can’t control how women operate, but I can learn to understand it, and control how I operate to affect the relationship and life outcomes I want.
> And since women tend to be receptive / reactive, strong masculine energy in men will usually influence / elicit greater femininity from women.
> ...


Or. You walk away from such women as not worth the effort. Look, I get what you're saying, but who wants to come home and have to out-masculine his wife constantly. I'm not interested in training the feminine into a woman. I'd rather go find another one that looks just like her but already knows how to be a woman. Wish I'd known that when I was younger.


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Wonder why.


Then that goes back to the old joke - how do you paralize a woman from the waist down? Feed her wedding cake!
This means that she knows she has to put out to capture the man. Once this is done, add a child or 2 and then you get the paralizing part.....


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## Defhero (Jan 5, 2022)

Hiner112 said:


> In my case it was a bit of a boiling frog situation and overdosing on hopium.
> 
> Dating and first year of marriage (5-6 years) sex was 3-9 times a week when we were living together.
> 
> ...


Just remember, once you marry that new girl, that chances of you falling back into the same scenario is very high and there is a reason for that and it is not what most would think,,,,,


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Defhero said:


> Just remember, once you marry that new girl, that chances of you falling back into the same scenario is very high and there is a reason for that and it is not what most would think,,,,,


If the same scenario takes just as long I'll be almost 70 and probably won't care quite as much...


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Hiner112 said:


> If the same scenario takes just as long I'll be almost 70 and probably won't care quite as much...


As long as she still touches your weenie when changing your Depends, it will be as if you had sex.
You'll still smile and gurgle and spit up.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. It's been proved that men who are married generally are happier, healthier and live longer than men who are not. Clearly many men don't see marriage as a prison sentence.


That is because they are doing less stupid dangerous crap with the guys.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. It's been proved that men who are married generally are happier, healthier and live longer than men who are not. Clearly many men don't see marriage as a prison sentence.


That's because the wives won't let us have any fun.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Why in the world would a guy accept no sex for weeks, months, years in a new M, or even later in a ltr M?


I came across an article written by a woman with a severe case of vaginismus. She married a virgin but later underwent medical procedures to overcome her issue. Once she was able to have sex she faced an unexpected dilemma. The fact her husband did not pressure her for sex had grown into what she needed to feel loved. They enjoyed teasing each other with the notion of actually having sex would be like, which likely created a lot of sparks. After trying first with toys she decided that what she already had was more enjoyable and she asked her husband if he would be willing to remain a virgin indefinitely. He agreed. 

Now the two of them shared A LOT of physical intimacy that resulted in powerful and regular orgasms for both on a regular basis. Just no traditional penis in vagina sex, which is what most people hold as the standard needed to loose one's virginity.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

badsanta said:


> I came across an article written by a woman with a severe case of vaginismus. She married a virgin but later underwent medical procedures to overcome her issue. Once she was able to have sex she faced an unexpected dilemma. The fact her husband did not pressure her for sex had grown into what she needed to feel loved. They enjoyed teasing each other with the notion of actually having sex would be like, which likely created a lot of sparks. After trying first with toys she decided that what she already had was more enjoyable and she asked her husband if he would be willing to remain a virgin indefinitely. He agreed.
> 
> Now the two of them shared A LOT of physical intimacy that resulted in powerful and regular orgasms for both on a regular basis. Just no traditional penis in vagina sex, which is what most people hold as the standard needed to loose one's virginity.


Is this like one of those case where the girl will only have anal sex because she is saving her virginity for marriage?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is this like one of those case where the girl will only have anal sex because she is saving her virginity for marriage?


It sounds like she's either saving it for somebody really special or she has found somebody special and isn't telling him.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Defhero said:


> Just remember, once you marry that new girl, that chances of you falling back into the same scenario is very high and there is a reason for that and it is not what most would think,,,,,


i can think of a number of reasons:
1) you choose poorly, and keep gravitating towards the sort of woman who will shut you down sexually
2) you do not demand sex in the marriage. the first two weeks of her denying you sex SHOULD have resulted in you offering to pack her bags and showing her the door unless she straightened up and flew right. Some people here start off complaining "i have not had sex for 7 years..." I could not fathom it going that long without serious fights!
3) you keep finding women based on superficial traits, instead of finding one where you have multiple things in common...so it is not just sex that keeps you together, but where sex is just one of five or so things you enjoy doing together.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is this like one of those case where the girl will only have anal sex because she is saving her virginity for marriage?


anal sex can be a valid substitute. 
If BJs and hand jobs are also involved, throwing in anal sex would be acceptable--assuming there was a valid medical reason why PIV sex was not going to happen.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is this like one of those case where the girl will only have anal sex because she is saving her virginity for marriage?


According to what I read...

No in this case there was a history of trauma that correlated to the vaginismus. She was not a virgin and made no false claims to her husband, but she was very clear to him about the trauma and her struggles with vaginismus. In everything written she described certain kinks she and her husband had developed sexually which resulted in a lot of fun and excitement for the two of them. Essentially they could both express themselves sexually put PIV was off limits and determined that the marriage was better if kept that way. 

Based on what was written the husband fully agreed to this because he feared that A) PIV would be painful for his wife and B) that he would not be able to enjoy something that caused her pain. So we are talking trauma here and a husband that wants his wife to be able to enjoy intimacy in ways that work around that trauma. I honestly think they were very happy with what they worked out and how they would play together. So this is an example of a husband that got married and is happily doing so without ever getting to experience PIV with his wife.


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## EssexUKMale (Jan 13, 2022)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The acceptance of no sex has me baffled too. If I go more than a week with no sex I turn into a whiny, *****y, pain in the ass. I can't stand to be around myself, so I'm sure my wife would grow tired of it rather quickly. I can relieve that to some degree with masturbation, but in my mind that isn't how marriage is supposed to work. At its core a marriage is a sexual relationship, at least in my mind.
> 
> I think it happens because many men are afraid to talk about it and most certainly afraid to do anything about it. I truly believe that the men with no sex are weak. Not necessarily physically weak, but mentally and emotionally weak. Lacking confidence maybe? This comes from a combination of societal pressures and the stupid **** love makes us do and put up with. So you get a double whammy. The men aren't willing to stand up for themselves which in turn makes them less desirable and attractive to their spouse.
> 
> For women, I think it is a combination of not being turned on by that weak man and selfishness. Attraction and desire are in large part mental, so I believe a woman has the ability to allow herself to be turned on by their husband, if they really want to. This is one of many things I absolutely love about my wife. She genuinely cares about all of my needs, including intimacy and sex. I give her everything I've got in all aspects of our marriage and she does the same. Upon reflection there are times where I know she wasn't really all that interested in sex, but she allowed me the opportunity to get her turned on. The result is great sex even when she probably could have lived without it, but she knows it is important to me and to the marriage and she will be fully engaged in it, no "starfish sex". I see it as a very selfless act and those selfless acts are the foundation of a great marriage.


So if she has fly? Or is struggling with mental. Or any other medical conditions you are going. Also sounds like you pressure her into sex. Maybe she has some stuff going and stress levels are high. You sound like you don’t care about her just your genitals.


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