# received some very disturbing news



## russ101

First of all this is not Russ 101, my name is John, but since my wife is very computer savy and I am not, Russ told me about this site and is letting me use his name so I apoligize if I don't get back to everyone in a timely manner since I will only be able to answer back once, or twice a week.

This is long, so my apolgies. First some background. My wife and I are both 47 and have been married for 22 years, with two children (18, and 12). Like most marriages, we have had our ups and downs but we always got by. Most of our downs throughout our marriage have been about money. I have worked in the same office for 18 years, and am happy, but only make about $50,000 a year. My wife never wanted to work, but she said she was forced to when I wouldn't go out and get another job that paid more (jobs in my field were hard to come by that paid more, and I never really looked that hard). Anyway, she went to work in a very large company back in 04, and moved up the ladder fairly quickly.

My wife has always put 150% into anything she did, so I never questioned it when she would be at work until 7-8:00 at night most days (Her normal work day ends at 5:00) and start working from home on the computer as soon as she finished dinner. If you knew my wife, this was normal behavior. About 4 years ago my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me. I asked her, are you? and she denied it completely, saying it was a couple of ladies that didn't like her, and because she did spend alot of time with her boss they were just gossiping. She has always been very against anyone that was cheating on their spouse and would always comment on how wrong it was, etc. The call never came and I just took her at her word.

After this revelation, I did a little investigating and found out that she was talking to her boss every night on her phone, always when she was out of the house shopping, or after I had gone to bed. I flipped out and asked her what could she possibly be talking about with him every night. She told me she and had become very close friends and talked on the phone just like she would with any other friend. She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you. I decided to still gather more evidence just to be sure she was telling me the truth. I hid a VAR in her car and in the den where she was doing most of her calls to him. I never found out anything, other that the fact that they really did just talk about work. They were almost like school girls on the phone, gossiping about other workers, etc. so I stopped checking up on her after a few weeks.

In 2010 he was transferred to another state, and my wife was devastated. It was as if a family member died. She continued to talk to him at least once every other day at night, and I did hear one conversation with him where she told him while crying how she missed him. That was the only evidence I ever got. 

Three days ago I started talking with a friend who moved back here from out of state (he moved away three years ago as well but to a different state). We were neve close but we did go out to the local pub because he said he had something to tell me. Just before my wife's boss transferred out of state, The company has a massive party at one of the CEO's home on a large estate. Our entire family went but my wife drove seperately because she was running late and didn't want to hold the rest of us up. My friend was there, as well as my wifes boss. I remember my wife dressing up with a short black dress and black panty hose and high heels, she looked great. Her boss got very drunk at this party and at my wife urged him to go home at one point. He said he would and left. this is where the story picks up. My friend was in his car at the time making a private call out in the parking lot which was hidden back from the party. He saw my wifes boss get in his car but left the car door open, and a couple of minutes later, my wife came by (I remember this because my wife told me she was going to follow him home in her car to make sure he made it ok, and even though I was not happy about it, she went anyway, saying I could leave any time and she would meet me at home).

My friend saw my wife come up to his car standing beside his open door and they talked for a couple of minutes, then he said the boss put his hand on my wifes leg just around the knee and started slowly caressing her leg and she just kept talking to him. He said this went on for at least a couple of minutes, they were in a secluded spot where no one could see them, or so they thought. He said that after a couple of minutes her boss started working his hand up her thigh under her dress, and she pulled his hand out fairly quickly, off of her completely. He said they continued to talk for a couple more minutes, then he closed his door, and she got in her car and left.

I got home about two hours after she left since my kids were having such a good time at the party, I stayed a while longer. She was already home when I got there and just talked about how drunk her boss was and how annoyed she was with him for getting that way. He transferred out of state about a month after this party. 

I am just finding this out now and have said nothing to my wife as of yet. I cannot believe she would let him rub her leg for a couple of minutes unless something was going on. I am not sure how I should approach this with my wife. If I confront her, I am sure she will just say he was drunk and tried something with her and she pushed him away immediately. She will not admit to how long it took her to actually push his hand away. She would call my friend a liar and say he was saying it because he doesn't like her (which is true). 

A couple of other notes to let all of you know: while my wife was working for her boss, she always got very dressed up. Sexy dresses full make up, etc. I always liked it because of the way she looked, but I noticed that she stopped, the minute he moved away, and would just dress in very plain clothes, and not even wear make-up to work on most days. The worst part of all of this is that he is being transferred back here in June even though he will not be by wife's boss, he will be working in the same building, and is now a fairly big wig in the company. He is single and has never been married. My wife is very happy that he is moving back although she doesn't talk about it very much with me because she knows I don't think her relationship with him is appropriate (I have read some of her texts to him this is why I know). I want to confront her about what happened at that party 3 years ago, but I know what her response will be and have no way of proving other wise. What should I do?


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## tom67

It is disturbing. One question, did you ask any of those girls that didn't like her? You could have got some info there. Coming home 2 to 3 hours late all the time a red flag.


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## Thound

She pulled his hand away. Maybe he wanted more and your wife rebuffed him. Then again maybe she was scafed of getting caught. I would lay low for now and keep your eyes open.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ExisaWAW

John. So sorry you're in this sitch. I'm afraid your W was/ is having an affair. Whether it was ever physical is unknown. I would either reinstall the VARs, etc. & wait for the proof of a physical affair or confront her now. Don't tell her how you know, just tell her you know all about it & never brought it up because he was moving. Get her to admit the affair. 

Then, have her agree to total monitoring or you will divorce her. If she balks, that's your proof that she doesn't want to put the work into the marriage that you deserve. Tell her if she doesn't do what you need, she's gone. 

Anything short of this will look weak & she'll walk all over you. Do not let her try & have the power. If you do, it's game over for you. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy

Clearly she was attracted to him and they carried on an emotional affair. The fact he tried to feel out and she rejected him makes me think she was willing to let it go only so far- or she didn’t want him to do it there in public.

But you have found out nothing aside the emotional aspect and the rest (late nights at work…) is circumstantial. 

I can’t think of a way to prove what really happened so long ago unless you can somehow tap into her work emails from that period. 

So maybe you should sit her down, tell her all you know (the late hours, sexy clothing, the feel up thing…) and ask her to help you and thereby helping the both of you. Beg her to come clean and confess all so you can put it behind you, cope with it and make a better marriage. You may also want to send the OM a letter and tell him it has come to your attention they had sex and if tells you all you promise not to tell his wife and sue the company. And if his story matches what you have been told then the matter is dropped. Maybe he will write you and maybe not. But if you have nothing else to go by, why not. Or maybe call him and ask him to tell you all.


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## northland

You say your wife is computer savvy so you picked a username to match the name of your friend and then you come right out and say your real name and age?

It's fairly clear that you did your investigative work and there's nothing more to be found. 

Your wife had what's called an "emotional affair" with her boss, she probably fell in love with him even if neither one of them openly acknowledged it to each other or even themselves, it started to get a bit out of hand but never got more physical than what was witnessed the night of the party.

He's gone, she'll never admit her feelings for him, so work on your marriage and keep tabs on her and any other possible problem guys she might deal with down the line and hopefully this will soon be a rapidly fading distant bad memory.


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## Tryingtobreath

To me that fact she pushed his advices always says a lot. 

I would continue to monitor but would be leaning towards giving her the benefit of the doubt here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NatureDave

There are three undeniable truths here:

1) These "gossipy women" at the office thought the relationship was inappropriate enough to gossip about it at the office and possibly tell you.

2) You yourself thought it was inappropriate enough to plant VAR's.

3) Your friend thought it was inappropriate enough to tell you about the parking lot incident.

At the best this is an emotional affair and needs to end.

At worst it was also a physical affair and will flame back up the minute he moves back to town.

You are also correct that you do not have enough to confront her. Of course she will deny the parking lot thing and say your friend didn't see anything. Then she will take it further underground.

This relationship cannot continue or it will ruin your marriage. You can do this two ways, but either way you have to demand that the relationship ends and be ready with consequences (file for divorce) if it doesn't. 

You can approach her now, before he moves back, with that demand based entirely on the current perceived status of the relationship.

Or you can wait until he's back in town and o some surveillance until you get hard evidence, the make the same demands.


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## MattMatt

Be careful. Do not accuse with no evidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NatureDave

Quick question, how's the sex life? 

Prior to 2004?

When things were hot and heavy with her "friend"?

After he moved away?


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## tom67

I would put the VAR back in the car now just to see if she still talks with him or if they are planning a get together when he comes back.


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## PreRaphaelite

She had an affair with her boss. The signs are all there. Could have been EA, but it was probably PA.

She was devastated by his transfer, she's very happy he's coming back, she always dressed up VERY nice when she saw him, and the incident in the parking lot.

Very sorry, but trust your gut on this one, and if your gut tells you that they were intimate, chances are very, very good that they were.

Dont' confront now or make her think you suspect. You need to find out what happened/is happening.


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## tom67

NatureDave said:


> Quick question, how's the sex life?
> 
> Prior to 2004?
> 
> When things were hot and heavy with her "friend"?
> 
> After he moved away?


Good question.


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## russ101

I know some of you think I am over reacting, but I just cannot picture my wife letting a another man caress her leg for several minutes without something going on. If this was any other man, she would have pulled away immediately after they had put their hand on her leg. It wasn't until (according to my friend) he started up her dress that she pulled his hand off. I personally think this was because she knew nothing could happen there or she was afraid someone might catch them. But I don't really know. This is what is so confusing to me.


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## tom67

Russ when she was working for him all they had to do was shut the office door and coming home late everynight come on it would have been easy. You have to tell her no contact/lunches with him-EVER!


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## Tryingtobreath

I'd lay low and continue surveillance once he's back. 

Do not confront her now by any means. If she catches wind you're onto it it'll go underground. 

Bide your time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russ101

An anwser to Nature Dave:

Our sex life was great until about 6 years ago, when it has slowly dwindled down to almost nothing now. She blames this on hormones, or lack of them since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to.


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## northland

russ101 said:


> I know some of you think I am over reacting, but I just cannot picture my wife letting a another man caress her leg for several minutes without something going on. If this was any other man, she would have pulled away immediately after they had put their hand on her leg. It wasn't until (according to my friend) he started up her dress that she pulled his hand off. I personally think this was because she knew nothing could happen there or she was afraid someone might catch them. But I don't really know. This is what is so confusing to me.


Hey at least she stopped him when he started working his way up her thigh. 

The woman has boundaries although she doesn't draw them nearly as clearly as most of us would like.

My take on it is that she was into the guy and if more time had gone by before he left she would have definitely slept with him but it never got to that point. 

Of course there's no way to know, you probably will never know.


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## badmemory

There are a lot of red flags here. I'm not one to speak in absolutes, but If I had to lay odds, I'd say they were having a PA, in addition to the current and obvious EA. I can imagine that she was just afraid of being caught when she pushed his hand away that night.

That said, your evidence could be better. She knows she's in a position to explain away what's there.

Bad news that he's coming back to work with her. But that does give you a better opportunity to catch them. If I were you, I would set up monitoring again, and take it up a notch. Spyware on her cell, GPS her car, keylogger, put the VARS back in.

Right now you could demand no contact, but that's not going to happen if they work together. It will also alert her to be more careful and perhaps take it underground. 

When you have more solid evidence, then you'll be in a position to insist that she leave that job (or he does); and that will be a absolute *MUST* if you want to consider R.

So my advice is to play it cool, go get some solid evidence, and post back with what happens.

Good luck.


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## workindad

She did not immediately rebuff his caress of her leg. It took a while and he had no problem going under her dress perhaps she was uncomfortable to be out in the open like that. She still got in his car knowing clearly what his intentions were. What do you think happened. Her reaction to him leaving is a big red flag. affair, certainly. Physical most likely. Get more evidence if you must. My experience is that cheaters are also world class liars if you confront to soon she will go under ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northland

You can speculate all you want to.

- They were actively having a sexual affair but she was concerned because it was a public area and she didn't want to get caught

- It was rapidly approaching a sexual affair but she was conflicted because she knew it was wrong

So what?

Accept that she was in love with the guy and was probably going to have sex with him, that's the very best possible scenario, the worst is that she already had sex with the guy. It was an emotional affair at the very least, which some feel is worse than a sexual one.

So figure your dealbreakers, decide on a course of action, and move on. One way or another.

Or sit there imagining all the possibilities and make yourself nuts.


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## Entropy3000

russ101 said:


> First of all this is not Russ 101, my name is John, but since my wife is very computer savy and I am not, Russ told me about this site and is letting me use his name so I apoligize if I don't get back to everyone in a timely manner since I will only be able to answer back once, or twice a week.
> 
> This is long, so my apolgies. First some background. My wife and I are both 47 and have been married for 22 years, with two children (18, and 12). Like most marriages, we have had our ups and downs but we always got by. Most of our downs throughout our marriage have been about money. I have worked in the same office for 18 years, and am happy, but only make about $50,000 a year. My wife never wanted to work, but she said she was forced to when I wouldn't go out and get another job that paid more (jobs in my field were hard to come by that paid more, and I never really looked that hard). Anyway, she went to work in a very large company back in 04, and moved up the ladder fairly quickly.
> 
> My wife has always put 150% into anything she did, so I never questioned it when she would be at work until 7-8:00 at night most days (Her normal work day ends at 5:00) and start working from home on the computer as soon as she finished dinner. If you knew my wife, this was normal behavior. About 4 years ago my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me. I asked her, are you? and she denied it completely, saying it was a couple of ladies that didn't like her, and because she did spend alot of time with her boss they were just gossiping. She has always been very against anyone that was cheating on their spouse and would always comment on how wrong it was, etc. The call never came and I just took her at her word.
> 
> After this revelation, I did a little investigating and found out that she was talking to her boss every night on her phone, always when she was out of the house shopping, or after I had gone to bed. I flipped out and asked her what could she possibly be talking about with him every night. She told me she and had become very close friends and talked on the phone just like she would with any other friend. She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you.
> 
> *And by definition her bonding in this way is an EA at the least. Again people wanting to define the boundary of cheating as PIV sex. But indeed this is in itself cheating. So you caught her red handed cheating. You just did not view it as such. This is when EAs have to be killed. She needed to go NC with her boss immediately to have a chance.*
> 
> I decided to still gather more evidence just to be sure she was telling me the truth. I hid a VAR in her car and in the den where she was doing most of her calls to him. I never found out anything, other that the fact that they really did just talk about work. They were almost like school girls on the phone, gossiping about other workers, etc. so I stopped checking up on her after a few weeks.
> 
> *This was an EA. They tend to turn romantic before overtly sexual. But they can ignite in less than a day.* * This needed to be engaged.*
> 
> In 2010 he was transferred to another state, and my wife was devastated. It was as if a family member died. She continued to talk to him at least once every other day at night, and I did hear one conversation with him where she told him while crying how she missed him. That was the only evidence I ever got.
> 
> *This is going to seem harsh but this was plenty. You just did not realize it.*
> 
> Three days ago I started talking with a friend who moved back here from out of state (he moved away three years ago as well but to a different state). We were neve close but we did go out to the local pub because he said he had something to tell me. Just before my wife's boss transferred out of state, The company has a massive party at one of the CEO's home on a large estate. Our entire family went but my wife drove seperately because she was running late and didn't want to hold the rest of us up. My friend was there, as well as my wifes boss. I remember my wife dressing up with a short black dress and black panty hose and high heels, she looked great. Her boss got very drunk at this party and at my wife urged him to go home at one point. He said he would and left. this is where the story picks up. My friend was in his car at the time making a private call out in the parking lot which was hidden back from the party. He saw my wifes boss get in his car but left the car door open, and a couple of minutes later, my wife came by (I remember this because my wife told me she was going to follow him home in her car to make sure he made it ok, and even though I was not happy about it, she went anyway, saying I could leave any time and she would meet me at home).
> 
> *Again, sorry I would have gone along. I get that you are a very truting guy. But it was not your wife's place to do this and certainly not woth out you.*
> 
> My friend saw my wife come up to his car standing beside his open door and they talked for a couple of minutes, then he said the boss put his hand on my wifes leg just around the knee and started slowly caressing her leg and she just kept talking to him. He said this went on for at least a couple of minutes, they were in a secluded spot where no one could see them, or so they thought. He said that after a couple of minutes her boss started working his hand up her thigh under her dress, and she pulled his hand out fairly quickly, off of her completely. He said they continued to talk for a couple more minutes, then he closed his door, and she got in her car and left.
> 
> *If this is true it would indicate this had been a physical relationship for a long time already.
> *
> I got home about two hours after she left since my kids were having such a good time at the party, I stayed a while longer. She was already home when I got there and just talked about how drunk her boss was and how annoyed she was with him for getting that way. He transferred out of state about a month after this party.
> 
> I am just finding this out now and have said nothing to my wife as of yet. I cannot believe she would let him rub her leg for a couple of minutes unless something was going on. I am not sure how I should approach this with my wife. If I confront her, I am sure she will just say he was drunk and tried something with her and she pushed him away immediately. She will not admit to how long it took her to actually push his hand away. She would call my friend a liar and say he was saying it because he doesn't like her (which is true).
> 
> *Absurd. Your friend validated what you already knew. There is not excuse for a married woman to let any man not her husband to touch her there even momentarily. Get real. *
> 
> A couple of other notes to let all of you know: while my wife was working for her boss, she always got very dressed up. Sexy dresses full make up, etc. I always liked it because of the way she looked, but I noticed that she stopped, the minute he moved away, and would just dress in very plain clothes, and not even wear make-up to work on most days.
> 
> *Right ...*
> 
> The worst part of all of this is that he is being transferred back here in June even though he will not be by wife's boss, he will be working in the same building, and is now a fairly big wig in the company. He is single and has never been married.
> 
> My wife is very happy that he is moving back although she doesn't talk about it very much with me because she knows I don't think her relationship with him is appropriate (I have read some of her texts to him this is why I know). I want to confront her about what happened at that party 3 years ago, but I know what her response will be and have no way of proving other wise. What should I do?


You do not need any other proof. She was cheating on you. For certain unfaithful. But if you want to save your marriage, insist she go NC with guy and changes her job before he returns. If she refuses, then file.

Time is NOT on your side. Your only chance to save your marriage is for her to go NC before he returns. If it has not gone PA it will in matter of hours / days upon his return. You should have shut this down when it started. You do not need any more evidence to know they should nevr meet again. So blow this up. NOW.


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## tom67

On top of being in basically a sexless marriage she has the hots for a guy who is moving back in town, not good.


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## Entropy3000

Tryingtobreath said:


> To me that fact she pushed his advices always says a lot.
> 
> I would continue to monitor but would be leaning towards giving her the benefit of the doubt here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She let him caress the back of her leg for minutes.


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## JustGrinding

*Do not* confront on the hearsay of your friend. *Do not* tip your hand while you establish ironclad surveillance. This man aggressively pursued your wife in the past and will almost certainly resume when he returns. Gather irrefutable evidence before you make a move, but when you move, do not feint and parry, go directly for the jugular.

You're going to have to be patient. It will take him a little time to woo her and get her to feel comfortable with him again.

Make no mistake: this guy is a predator and will resume the stalk. Your wife has done nothing to dissuade him, so she may just be waiting for his return as well. 

Lie low and surveil!


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## Acabado

Yo uare in a sexless marriage to beging with (so you you are clearly in need of a come to Jesus, couples counseling, etc).
And her affair, whether it was "just" EA, had a role into this obviously. Many women need an emotional attachment, complete trust to be in the mood. With an EA they shift that emotional attachment to the AP (that's why she dressep up for him!). And this was deep, as the heartbreaking news of being transferred clearly demostrates.
My guess is she will get back to dress up for work.


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## arbitrator

russ101 said:


> * She blames this on hormones, or lack of them *since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to.


*Well, it would certainly appear that her "dopamine levels" literally seem to shoot through the roof whenever Mr. Bossman is around her! In person or otherwise!*

So, coupling that analogy, along with the way that she's been neglecting you as your wife, you would have absolutely no problem in convincing me that this has been a full-blown PA, as well as an EA, over the past few years.

My rationale is that there's just far too many unanswered questions here than there are viable answers!


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## tom67

Do the same women still work there? If so get some info out of them.


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## Entropy3000

Do not wait. If you wait you will have evidence. Which do you want? Evidence of them consummating a PA or to save your marriage.

If all you care about is proof then by all means wait. You will get it. But no guy protecting his marriage waits on this one. You already waited way too long already. 

You will get your answer when she chooses this guy over you. Which she is likely to do. However, with him out of the picture you have a very small window.

Letting this guy take another run at here seems very absurd to me.


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## northland

Wait where did he say the boss guy is coming back to town?

If that's true then there are some serious problems here that must be addressed.

After a physical separation, once the two of them get back together sex will be inevitable.


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## southernsurf

russ101 said:


> I know some of you think I am over reacting, but I just cannot picture my wife letting a another man caress her leg for several minutes without something going on. If this was any other man, she would have pulled away immediately after they had put their hand on her leg. It wasn't until (according to my friend) he started up her dress that she pulled his hand off. I personally think this was because she knew nothing could happen there or she was afraid someone might catch them. But I don't really know. This is what is so confusing to me.


All the evidence is there, human behavior is predictable and consistent. The reason she didn't pull back immediately is because he had been up there before. Sorry but you never follow the boss home to be sure he got there ok unless she felt she belonged there with him. Sorry but get your ducks in a row now, take control.


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## Acabado

tom67 said:


> Do the same women still work there? If so get some info out of them.


Please, do this. Contact the coworkers.


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## Hicks

Do you feel you have a marraige that currently meets your standards? I don't think you do, or you don't have one that meets my personal standards for two reasons:
1. Your wife has a close male friend that she talks to on the phone and cries over and allows to touch her
2. She is not sexual with you.
In my mind you already have "grounds" to expect your wife to work with you on fixing your marriage or choose to accept a consequence of not working with you to fix your marriage. 

It's really a goose change and uncessary to prove an affair at this point. You should already be asking her to choose her marriage over any form of contact with this man ever again.


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## SweetAndSour

It is not about her being straightened up and reminded that she is a wife and a mother.

It is about you to realize that you don`t have a wife and your kids don`t have a mother who values her family first.

Sooner or later, it comes to that. Sorry brother.


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## thatbpguy

russ101 said:


> An anwser to Nature Dave:
> 
> Our sex life was great until about 6 years ago, when it has slowly dwindled down to almost nothing now. She blames this on hormones, or lack of them since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to.


Makes me wonder if intimacy with you has been replaced by the other guy in her mind. She loves him and you’re just her lump on the couch.

Maybe discuss this with her. I still like the idea of sitting her down, telling all you know and pouring your heart to her. Beg her to tell you all (what happened, her feelings for him as it’s obvious they carried on some sort of a betrayal and if you’re willing once you think you have all the answers to rebuild the marriage.


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## weightlifter

DO NOT CONFRONT NOW. There is a 90% chance of you getting shot down like RDMU.

Being a numbers guy

EA probability 100%
PA probability 80%

I read the scenario as this: They had a PA but as he was leaving she called it off. Later in the parking lot she was fine with a knee touch but didnt let him touch the cooter cause he was leaving.

There are very few women who let a man touch her leg like that unless they have done the deed. Sorry.

VAR the car NOW, you may get pre-planning. SONY ICDPX312 Dont get $30 crap. $50 Sony is the best for this and no I dont work for them nor have their stock.

Honestly tell your wife to get hormone replacement now. A sexless marriage is a major recipe for disaster. Wanking is no substitute for a warm wet vagina. It is the most fundamental marital nonverbal communication. She is sending you a bad bad bad bad message.

If she isnt into it there are other issues too.

Here is the short version: Previous affair + near sexless = your marriage is dead already. Take steps to resurrect it or end the marriage. Dont waste the rest of your life.


----------



## northland

weightlifter said:


> Wanking is no substitute for a warm wet vagina.


Don't forget "tight". If it's loose, and I've had one or two of those, wanking is preferrable.


----------



## weightlifter

tight is better but a loose one combined with a woman looking up at you with love in her eyes, possibly saying how much she loves you, as you go at it... is very positive communication.


----------



## SweetAndSour

weightlifter said:


> Honestly tell your wife to get hormone replacement now. A sexless marriage is a major recipe for disaster. Wanking is no substitute for a warm wet vagina.


A cheater does not need hormone replacement. The subject vagina is warm end wet more than enough in my opinion. Why are we here anyways.


----------



## SweetAndSour

weightlifter said:


> DO NOT CONFRONT NOW. There is a 90% chance of you getting shot down like RDMU.


Yes, don`t confront now.


----------



## weightlifter

SweetAndSour said:


> A cheater does not need hormone replacement. The subject vagina is warm end wet more than enough in my opinion. Why are we here anyways.


She is not currently seeing him in all likelyhood.
As for June... Im betting...


----------



## arbitrator

weightlifter said:


> *Honestly tell your wife to get hormone replacement now. *
> 
> Here is the short version: Previous affair + near sexless = your marriage is dead already. Take steps to resurrect it or end the marriage. Dont waste the rest of your life.


Unlike being with her husband, *Russ*, it would greatly seem that her "hormone problems" are of little to no consequence when it comes to Mr. Bossman! Unless *Russ* is going to "threaten her" by using this line as a last ditch tool in saving this marriage, I would totally think that she has all but checked out of this union and is fastly over in the pyschological wings, patiently waiting for Mr. Bossman to come to her rescue, with the pleasant prospects of living "happily ever after" with him!

And until such time, she is greatly contented to stay put and just munch on her cake!


----------



## turnera

Spend this next month getting reviews on the PIs in your city. Pick the one with the best reputation - not the cheapest, but the most effective. Meet with him this month, give him a retainer, and inform him when the boss moves back to town. Sic him on the boss AND your wife and tell him to get the proof you will need in court.

You may not end up USING it in court, you may reconcile, but you won't reconcile in YOUR favor without the proof.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

It is very clear what happened. Now if you want to stay married to her, you have to take action. You need to have her come clean totally.

Whatever advice you follow, getting her to completely confess must be the goal.

If she had sex with him and not with you, he went away and still little or no with you......chances are she has an one more OM on the side. If she likes sex that is.


----------



## ironman

Russ101,

Have her quit the job .. immediately! That is if you care about reconciliation. Nothing good is going to happen with her continuing to work with this guy.

Your gut is probably correct ... the odds that this was a physical affair are sky-high.

Also, her "warning" you about the gossip girls who don't like her spreading rumors was her way of running a pre-emptive gas-lighting on you. It usually doesn't even occur to an innocent person that they have to do this ... she was running precautionary damage-control by creating a false alibi.


----------



## Toffer

weightlifter said:


> I read the scenario as this: They had a PA but as he was leaving she called it off. Later in the parking lot she was fine with a knee touch but didnt let him touch the cooter cause he was leaving.
> 
> There are very few women who let a man touch her leg like that unless they have done the deed. Sorry.
> 
> DING! DING! DING! :iagree: We Have a winner!
> 
> I too think it was physical but do to the fact he was leaving, she shut him down in the parking lot
> 
> So how long did it take her to "follow him home" that day and get back to your house? Was it an believable time frame?


----------



## russ101

to be clear on a few things: first of all, she did not get in the car with him, but did follow him home. I agree this is definitely an imroper relationship. She knows that I feel this way. But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong. I do not have proof of anything really, other than a friends word about the caressing of her leg. I know some of you want me to confront now, but I know my wife very well and she could explain every thing very easily. I am also not sure (based on the VAR i listened to for several weeks) that she is just really close friends with him.

As for the women at work that were gossiping. I only know of one of the names (first name only) and have no idea if she still works there or not. I appreciate the brutal honesty everyone has given me and all of it is good advice, but I feel I need much more than what I currently have if I am to confront her. 
My wife (other than our lack of sex) is still quite affectionte with me, and loves doing family things together. She always talks about the importance of marriage and family etc. and just recently found out that her sister was being cheated on by her husband and my wife was almost as devestated as her sister was, saying how could a man do that to his wife? I guess I'm just old fashion but you get married for a reason. All of these things still make me wonder. I am going to do some more survellience when Phil (her ex-boss) comes back in about a month.


----------



## russ101

Also, I am using Russ's thread, but my name is John. I am not too tech savy and if I did this at home under another screen name, my wife would discover it immediatly. Russ is my neighbor, and not the friend that saw my wife at the party.


----------



## SweetAndSour

russ101 said:


> I know my wife very well and she could explain every thing very easily.


What does it mean ?.......


----------



## aug

russ101 said:


> to be clear on a few things: first of all, *she did not get in the car with him, but did follow him home.* I agree this is definitely an imroper relationship. She knows that I feel this way. But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong. I do not have proof of anything really, other than a friends word about the caressing of her leg. I know some of you want me to confront now, but I know my wife very well and she could explain every thing very easily. I am also not sure (based on the VAR i listened to for several weeks) that she is just really close friends with him.
> 
> As for the women at work that were gossiping. I only know of one of the names (first name only) and have no idea if she still works there or not. I appreciate the brutal honesty everyone has given me and all of it is good advice, but I feel I need much more than what I currently have if I am to confront her.
> My wife (other than our lack of sex) is still quite affectionte with me, and loves doing family things together. She always talks about the importance of marriage and family etc. and just recently found out that her sister was being cheated on by her husband and my wife was almost as devestated as her sister was, saying how could a man do that to his wife? I guess I'm just old fashion but you get married for a reason. All of these things still make me wonder. I am going to do some more survellience when Phil (her ex-boss) comes back in about a month.


She was in a deep EA. She followed him home. She doesn't have sex with you. Yes, it's extremely likely she had sex with him.

Given the amount of time the 2 were apart, there maybe be some detachment. But it's quite likely they will resume again.

Talking about the importance of marriage is her way of convincing herself and putting up a front. But she tuned out of the marriage as evident by the lack of sex.


----------



## MovingAhead

"My friend saw my wife come up to his car standing beside his open door and they talked for a couple of minutes, then he said *the boss put his hand on my wifes leg just around the knee and started slowly caressing her leg and she just kept talking to him*. He said this went on for at least a couple of minutes, they were in a secluded spot where no one could see them, or so they thought.* He said that after a couple of minutes her boss started working his hand up her thigh under her dress*, and she pulled his hand out fairly quickly, off of her completely"

John, I am sorry you are here brother...

If she didn't do anything when he started rubbing her leg, well she has let it happen before and she thinks it's ok. If he was putting his had up her dress, he's done it before.

If you think this is the first time then I am afraid you are in serious denial. The ladies at the office knew this was going on for a long time... She is cheating on you and it has been physical to some extent.

It's not appropriate is an understatement and we all know it. 

Gather your evidence but don't let her know that you are doing it. Get a PI, VAR etc... Nothing is going to happen in the next few weeks that hasn't happened before. Read the 180, gather your evidence and be prepared for the emotional hell that is about to come your way.

I am truly sorry you are here, but so many of us have been through the same thing, we will be here to help you.


----------



## doubletrouble

northland said:


> After a physical separation, once the two of them get back together sex will be inevitable.


This is so true. it's exactly what happened to my WW when her ex-boss came back to town. They hadn't seen each other for nine months, the EA was still ongoing ALL that time, and they had sex while I was out of town.


----------



## Entropy3000

Toffer said:


> weightlifter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read the scenario as this: They had a PA but as he was leaving she called it off. Later in the parking lot she was fine with a knee touch but didnt let him touch the cooter cause he was leaving.
> 
> There are very few women who let a man touch her leg like that unless they have done the deed. Sorry.
> 
> DING! DING! DING! :iagree: We Have a winner!
> 
> I too think it was physical but do to the fact he was leaving, she shut him down in the parking lot
> 
> So how long did it take her to "follow him home" that day and get back to your house? Was it an believable time frame?
> 
> 
> 
> She shut him down in the parking lot because her husband and others were around. Like you say she followed him home.
> 
> Instigation
> Isolation
> Escalation
Click to expand...


----------



## Entropy3000

russ101 said:


> to be clear on a few things: first of all, she did not get in the car with him, but did follow him home. I agree this is definitely an imroper relationship. She knows that I feel this way. But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong. I do not have proof of anything really, other than a friends word about the caressing of her leg.
> 
> *You have plenty of proof. Some guys want to see their wife riding the guy before they get it. They have no idea about EAs though. You wife following this guy home alone was unfaithful. Period. Not if you wait you will get what you are looking for. You both have very poor boundaries to be in a monogamous relationship. Which you are not now.*
> 
> I know some of you want me to confront now, but I know my wife very well and she could explain every thing very easily.
> 
> *This is your problem. It is not about explanations. It is about her going NC. This is not about negotiations or rationlizations. IF you wait you might as well be getting ready to leave because you are enabling the affair and this just becomes another hotwifing story.*
> 
> I am also not sure (based on the VAR i listened to for several weeks) that she is just really close friends with him.
> 
> As for the women at work that were gossiping. I only know of one of the names (first name only) and have no idea if she still works there or not. I appreciate the brutal honesty everyone has given me and all of it is good advice, but I feel I need much more than what I currently have if I am to confront her.
> My wife (other than our lack of sex) is still quite affectionte with me, and loves doing family things together. She always talks about the importance of marriage and family etc. and just recently found out that her sister was being cheated on by her husband and my wife was almost as devestated as her sister was, saying how could a man do that to his wife? I guess I'm just old fashion but you get married for a reason. All of these things still make me wonder. I am going to do some more survellience when Phil (her ex-boss) comes back in about a month.


So rather than use this time to save your marriage you are going to avoid conflict and catch her red "handed". Great plan.


----------



## inmygut

russ101 said:


> An anwser to Nature Dave:
> 
> Our sex life was great until about 6 years ago, when it has slowly dwindled down to almost nothing now. She blames this on hormones, or lack of them since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to.


No sex life is a problem that needs to be fixed regardless.
1 Get to the gym and get in shape
2 Read the Married Man Sex Life Primer and take action... the book is actually about becoming a high value man that women are attracted to
3 No More Mr Nice Guy book... so you start looking out for you

Good Luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jh52

My suggestion would be to keep both eyes open and monitor, monitor, monitor.

For a coupleof posters who confronted early with no proof -- read the threads by RDMU and Jerry123.

RDMU finally got his proof -- Jerry123 is still monitoring today.

If you confront too early she and can talk her way out of it --- they will take the affair (if there was a PA) more underground.

It's a tough call -- when to confront --- but not tough at all when you have 100% proof. Unfortunately -- sometimes it's too late to save the marriage.

Guess you are at a point -- you can't be afraid to lose your marriage if she is cheating on you -- and if she has already cheated on you in the past before OM left for a few years -- you have already lost the marriage you thought you had.

Good luck !!


----------



## carolinadreams

russ101 said:


> to be clear on a few things: She knows that I feel this way. But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong.


You are absolutely correct you don't have the right to pick her friends.

You do have the absolute right to say if you want to be married with me, you will not associate with this person. We can't dictate other peoples behaviour, but we can tell them what we will tolerate in a relationship with them.

Opposite sex friends are almost never friends of the marriage.

Let me translate your wife's speech to you to burn this in. *Dearest husband John, my contact and friendship with this man is more important than my marriage to you. *

If he's "just a friend" then *that means you are even lower on the priority rung than "just a friend"* let that sink into your conscious. I see she makes more money than you that's fantastic tell her if she can't or won't commit to the marriage, you look forward to the spousal support from her when you file for divorce. 

Have you done any cell-phone or email investigation? Most cheaters aren't as clever as they think and leave plenty of incriminating things around once it occurs to you to look.


----------



## ironman

Entropy3000 said:


> So rather than use this time to save your marriage you are going to avoid conflict and catch her red "handed". Great plan.


I have to agree with Entropy here russ101. You seem to be in deep denial. What more proof do you need? A video of them having sex along with a handwritten and signed confession from them? Good luck getting that.

Sarcasm aside, I don't see how you can stand idle after another man was fondling your wife ... and then she followed him home! That is already enough to declare this a physical affair! 

Don't tell her how you know ... just tell her you know.

At this point you need to decide if you can live with what you and everyone else here realizes she has done. Divorce or can you live with it?

PS: I'd be furious if I were in your shoes.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

She stopped him in the parking lot, BUT followed him home AND came home 3 hours after you did.........

If she's as tech savvy as you say, make sure you don't leave yourself logged in to here and walk away. Clear your browser history too.

The OM(old boss comes back in June. Get ready, cause it's gonna happen soon after. If you weren't able to catch her the last time, prepare and catch her this time.

Don't tip your hand either by grilling here without having good evidence, or she'll just deny, deny, deny.


----------



## Hicks

russ101 said:


> But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong. I do not have proof of anything really, other than a friends word about the caressing of her leg. /QUOTE]
> 
> John, you only have one marriage and one life.
> Your wife is making up marriage harming rules for YOU TO ABIDE by so SHE can have whatever she wants in her life.
> 
> A male friend of this nature has no place in any marriage. Proof of the pudding is in the SEX you are not getting.
> 
> YOU NEED TO START makng the rules for your marriage. You can't make her do anything but make a choice between a marriage to your standards or accepting that you will be finding another woman who will meet your standards as a wife.
> 
> P.S. your wife knows she is cheating, knows what she is doing is wrong, and the fact that you accept this nonsensical blather futher reinforces her feelings about you as a weak, unimportant male.


----------



## turnera

Line up the PI.


----------



## tom67

John do you really want to live in a sexless marriage to a woman who doesn't respect you? I'm 46 and couldn't imagine having sex once a month unless she had a VALID medical condition. Do you think it might be time to re asses this? Think about what you want.


----------



## tom67

John what has your neighbor russ said to you?


----------



## Lovemytruck

tom67 said:


> John do you really want to live in a sexless marriage to a woman who doesn't respect you? I'm 46 and couldn't imagine having sex once a month unless she had a VALID medical condition. Do you think it might be time to re asses this? Think about what you want.


OP (John Russ, lol)

I vote with Tom. The facts may never come to light as far as the past. The present is not good. Lack of sex and respect.

A radical approach would be to move toward a divorce (D) and let her chase YOU. This would speak volumes to her love for you.

In the end, that would be your best approach if she had an EA or PA anyway.

Just a thought. I know how gut-wrenching this must be for you. Most of us have been down this path, and it feels like your whole world has ended. It will be better eventually.

I am very glad you have friends that are with you as you go through this horrible time.


----------



## thatbpguy

russ101 said:


> to be clear on a few things: first of all, she did not get in the car with him, but did follow him home. I agree this is definitely an imroper relationship. She knows that I feel this way. But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong. I do not have proof of anything really, other than a friends word about the caressing of her leg. I know some of you want me to confront now, but I know my wife very well and she could explain every thing very easily. I am also not sure (based on the VAR i listened to for several weeks) that she is just really close friends with him.
> 
> As for the women at work that were gossiping. I only know of one of the names (first name only) and have no idea if she still works there or not. I appreciate the brutal honesty everyone has given me and all of it is good advice, but I feel I need much more than what I currently have if I am to confront her.
> My wife (other than our lack of sex) is still quite affectionte with me, and loves doing family things together. She always talks about the importance of marriage and family etc. and just recently found out that her sister was being cheated on by her husband and my wife was almost as devestated as her sister was, saying how could a man do that to his wife? I guess I'm just old fashion but you get married for a reason.  All of these things still make me wonder. I am going to do some more survellience when Phil (her ex-boss) comes back in about a month.


What about the suggestion of contacting the other man politely and asking for some details? Tell him your wife has told you some things and you just want to verify and there's no need to tell his wife...


----------



## MattMatt

OK. Why would your wife warn you what her co-workers would tell you about?

Let's expand on that, what did she and her boss do that was so horrible that your wife thought her co-workers (plural, not singular) would be so angry/sickened they would immediately rush to tell you about it?

And why didn't they? Maybe your wife was paranoid and her co-workers saw nothing?

Or perhaps they did confront her and she gaslighted them into saying nothing to you?
*
Ask them.*


----------



## weightlifter

With what he has now his wife is going to shoot him down EASY.
90 percent chance. She may well have not truly reconnected yet except via phone and text. He has to get better evidence.

Rdmu's wife shot him down with two red flags on the first confront. 6 weeks of misery later, after she had taken a break to throw him off she reconnected after going underground. Second confront with good proof it took him one minute to break her.


----------



## treyvion

russ101 said:


> I know some of you think I am over reacting, but I just cannot picture my wife letting a another man caress her leg for several minutes without something going on. If this was any other man, she would have pulled away immediately after they had put their hand on her leg. It wasn't until (according to my friend) he started up her dress that she pulled his hand off. I personally think this was because she knew nothing could happen there or she was afraid someone might catch them. But I don't really know. This is what is so confusing to me.


It's also possible she really liked him, and talking to him - and the hand on the leg made her uncomfortable but she didn't want to be "mean", but the hand up the skirt, was a big no-no.

I'm surprised they would talk or talk as much after this incident if she looked at it as a bad thing.


----------



## treyvion

weightlifter said:


> DO NOT CONFRONT NOW. There is a 90% chance of you getting shot down like RDMU.
> 
> Being a numbers guy
> 
> EA probability 100%
> PA probability 80%
> 
> I read the scenario as this: They had a PA but as he was leaving she called it off. Later in the parking lot she was fine with a knee touch but didnt let him touch the cooter cause he was leaving.
> 
> There are very few women who let a man touch her leg like that unless they have done the deed. Sorry.
> 
> VAR the car NOW, you may get pre-planning. SONY ICDPX312 Dont get $30 crap. $50 Sony is the best for this and no I dont work for them nor have their stock.
> 
> Honestly tell your wife to get hormone replacement now. A sexless marriage is a major recipe for disaster. Wanking is no substitute for a warm wet vagina. It is the most fundamental marital nonverbal communication. She is sending you a bad bad bad bad message.
> 
> If she isnt into it there are other issues too.
> 
> Here is the short version: Previous affair + near sexless = your marriage is dead already. Take steps to resurrect it or end the marriage. Dont waste the rest of your life.


How much data can this VAR store? Is it voice activated? What about a solution that must record voice for a month or more at a time, perhaps 15-30 minutes per day. Does something like this exist that won't run out of battery?


----------



## workindad

russ101 said:


> to be clear on a few things: first of all, she did not get in the car with him, but did follow him home. I agree this is definitely an imroper relationship. She knows that I feel this way. But her rationale is that they are only friends, and have only ever been friends, and I do not have the right to pick hers when she has never done anything wrong. I do not have proof of anything really, other than a friends word about the caressing of her leg. I know some of you want me to confront now, but I know my wife very well and she could explain every thing very easily.


OP- OK, she didn't get in his car but she still followed him home and knew his intentions. Why did she follow him? What do you think they did at his place or wherever they stopped at along the way? How do you easily explain away putting his hand on her legs...leg cramps?

I'm not trying to be mean, just connecting the dots. If you need more evidence then by all means get it and do so before confronting.

Good luck
WD


----------



## northland

treyvion said:


> How much data can this VAR store? Is it voice activated? What about a solution that must record voice for a month or more at a time, perhaps 15-30 minutes per day. Does something like this exist that won't run out of battery?


Yes a *V*oice *A*ctivated *R*ecorder is Voice Activated.

You couldn't get to it to download the data for an entire month?

I imagine that even at the high data storage levels and battery life of lithium extra power batteries you'd be pushing the limits. But you'd still get plenty of info.


----------



## CEL

It comes down to a few simple questions you have to ask yourself.

1: Do you believe she was fvcking him?

2: If it is just and EA are you okay with that? You already have the proof of this one.

3: Do you still trust her?


At this point my guess is they screwed each other many many times. I would look at her phone and her computer there are programs the others can give you to get you access. If it was a PA you should see something in the text messages. By the way does she have her phone on lock? If so do you have the code?


----------



## EleGirl

russ101 said:


> I am going to do some more survellience when Phil (her ex-boss) comes back in about a month.


He's coming back in a month? The time to start checking thing is now. The VAR needs to go back in her car and in the room where she talks on the phone.

Does she use a home computer? If so a keylogger might be a good idea.

Last time you checked for a short while and then gave up. That's not how you catch somone. Sometimes it can take a while. So start now and keep it up.


----------



## northland

Ok, the boss is back in a month. This is so not good. 

It's great that you'll be putting some surveillance methods in place, not so great that you're not computer savvy and she is, so you have no way to cover your tracks here on this forum where you're getting all this advice on how to keep tabs on her, you even post personal details including your real name and your friends name, and you probably don't realize how easy it is for her to check your internet history, you think you're being clever because you didn't use "John" in your user ID but there it is in your very first sentence in your very first post on this thread..

Add to it that a month is just enough time to ramp up those hormones and combine that with the feelings they'll have from missing each other.. this will be like trying to stop an oncoming freight train with a broken fly swatter.


----------



## CEL

EleGirl said:


> He's coming back in a month? The time to start checking thing is now. The VAR needs to go back in her car and in the room where she talks on the phone.
> 
> Does she use a home computer? If so a keylogger might be a good idea.
> 
> Last time you checked for a short while and then gave up. That's not how you catch somone. Sometimes it can take a while. So start now and keep it up.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: do it now not later and get the cell phone records to prove the EA at least. Plus see if she deletes his text and no one else.


----------



## jnj express

If you look at the FACTS---you do not need anymore evidence---than what you already have

1st---he is her confidant/lover/best friend/girl friend/wife/cohort/and now he is her husband also----you have allowed this to happen, by doing nothing about a situation that has been in play for months, if not years

2nd---nite of the party---married woman with her H/kids at the party---and who does she choose to worry about and follow home----HER LOVER----why would she not stay at the party with her family------she has absolutely no responsibility for her lover or anything he does---yet chose to follow him home---if she was worried about him, as a co-worker---she calls a cab

as to the leg affair---a wife who OP alleges is into her mge---WOULD NEVER ALLOW ANOTHER MAN TO CARESS HER LEG, OUT IN THE OPEN, AND THEN AND ONLY WHEN HE HEADED NEATH HER DRESS, SHE TOOK ACTION----what properly married wife and mother allows that to happen, who claims as she allegedly does to abhor cheating.

She stayed many, many nights up to THREE HOURS after work----she displayed outward indications enuff so that wife came home, and covered up, by telling H---that she might be accused of having an A---CUZ SHE IS HAVING AN A

You never stopped this, you kept yielding to her BS, about him being a friend with all their calls, texts---even the best of friends, talk a couple of times a day, and at normal hours-----she and her lover wanted to be together and they were

The lack of sex, and her just going thru the motions, are indicative of the fact that she doesn't wanna "dis" her real H, WHO IS HER LOVER

If you even wanna try and save this sham of a mge---you need to lay down boundaries, NOW---NC, and SHE QUITS HER JOB

So then she gets to make her decision----whether she wants to stay with the back-up plan YOU---or her new H---HIM

Do this now---cuz 1 if this goes to D---you want her to keep that job, due to alimony----2 the minute they get back and see each other---THEY WILL BE IN EACH OTHERS ARMS

One last question----WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME SHE CRIED TEARS, OVER/FOR YOU


----------



## See_Listen_Love

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> She stopped him in the parking lot, BUT followed him home AND came home 3 hours after you did.........


THIS



> Don't tip your hand either by grilling here without having good evidence, or she'll just deny, deny, deny.


You are still in denial, not uncommon, but if you keep rugsweeping by yourself, then it is becoming your fault if it gets picked up again. 

Gather gaslighting-proof evidence fast. A PI can do this.

If a man goes up the leg of a women like that, 

then She Is His'....


----------



## See_Listen_Love

thatbpguy said:


> What about the suggestion of contacting the other man politely and asking for some details? Tell him your wife has told you some things and you just want to verify and there's no need to tell his wife...


No, no. Fast way to get denial, gaslighting and an underground affair.

Soft behaviour too.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Toffer said:


> weightlifter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read the scenario as this: They had a PA but as he was leaving she called it off. Later in the parking lot she was fine with a knee touch but didnt let him touch the cooter cause he was leaving.
> 
> There are very few women who let a man touch her leg like that unless they have done the deed. Sorry.
> 
> DING! DING! DING! :iagree: We Have a winner!
> 
> I too think it was physical but do to the fact he was leaving, she shut him down in the parking lot
> 
> So how long did it take her to "follow him home" that day and get back to your house? Was it an believable time frame?
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> Weightlifter and Toffer have got this one right.
> 
> They had a PA, she ended it, but still she followed him to his home.
> 
> Can you say sayonara fvck? How long before she arrived home after that?
> 
> Your wife's been lying to you. Start to face up to this as a 99% certainty. And her disgust over the cheating of others? She's threw you off the scent so you would suspect nothing.
> 
> Cheaters are not rational people. They can resort to almost anything to hide their affairs.
Click to expand...


----------



## LongWalk

John, the bad news is your wife is in love with her ex-boss. He is single and could marry her if you divorced. In fact she would probably leave you immediately if he offered to marry her. He does not want to, preferring to enjoy having passionate cheating sex when she can make the effort to arrange for you to be alone. That was all to easy when you accepted her working late at the office.

The PA began long ago in all probability. The fact that she stopped dressing up to go to the office once he transferred tells you everything.

The fact that your wife dressed for him indicates that she has had sexual desire, only not for you.

If you gather enough evidence of her infidelity and blow the affair out of the water in high style, you may get her to stay in your marriage, especially since he probably doesn't want to marry her. Do not expect her passion for you to ever come close to what she felt for him, unless you change yourself drastically.

She makes more money than you and he made more than her. He had authority over many people, you are a regular guy. So, you are not competitive. Maybe Machiavelli and others can lead to change the situation.


----------



## thatbpguy

LongWalk said:


> John, the bad news is your wife is in love with her ex-boss. He is single and could marry her if you divorced. In fact she would probably leave you immediately if he offered to marry her. He does not want to, preferring to enjoy having passionate cheating sex when she can make the effort to arrange for you to be alone. That was all to easy when you accepted her working late at the office.
> 
> The PA began long ago in all probability. The fact that she stopped dressing up to go to the office once he transferred tells you everything.
> 
> The fact that your wife dressed for him indicates that she has had sexual desire, only not for you.
> 
> If you gather enough evidence of her infidelity and blow the affair out of the water in high style, you may get her to stay in your marriage, especially since he probably doesn't want to marry her. Do not expect her passion for you to ever come close to what she felt for him, unless you change yourself drastically.
> 
> She makes more money than you and he made more than her. He had authority over many people, you are a regular guy. So, you are not competitive. Maybe Machiavelli and others can lead to change the situation.


Take out the last paragraph and I like this post.

And LongWalk is right. 

She fell in love/lust with him and essentially dumped you. For one reason or another she didn't leave you. But your love relationship with her is over and has been for some time. It isn't coming back.

So, you have two options:

1) Expose her and her love for him and call the marriage quits. Both of you can go on to a better place in life.

2) Say nothing and stay married to a woman who wants another man. 

[Also, something I've wanted to say... It doesn't matter if she is tech savy or not, you can still 'bug' her computer and phone. The fact you are not means she will never suspect you of doing so.]

You're in a tough spot. Were I to give advice, I'd set her down, lay out all the evidence, tell her you are neither stupid nor blind and feel betrayed by her lack of honesty and integrity, but just wanted the marriage to really work, but it has not and then go about an amicable divorce. She will be free to have the guy she wants (as much as that sucks) and hopefully you can find someone who loves you.


----------



## tom67

thatbpguy said:


> Take out the last paragraph and I like this post.
> 
> And LongWalk is right.
> 
> She fell in love/lust with him and essentially dumped you. For one reason or another she didn't leave you. But your love relationship with her is over and has been for some time. It isn't coming back.
> 
> So, you have two options:
> 
> 1) Expose her and her love for him and call the marriage quits. Both of you can go on to a better place in life.
> 
> 2) Say nothing and stay married to a woman who wants another man.
> 
> [Also, something I've wanted to say... It doesn't matter if she is tech savy or not, you can still 'bug' her computer and phone. The fact you are not means she will never suspect you of doing so.]
> 
> You're in a tough spot. Were I to give advice, I'd set her down, lay out all the evidence, tell her you are neither stupid nor blind and feel betrayed by her lack of honesty and integrity, but just wanted the marriage to really work, but it has not and then go about an amicable divorce. She will be free to have the guy she wants (as much as that sucks) and hopefully you can find someone who loves you.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## aug

Since she does make more money than you, ask for alimony/spousal support when/if you divorce.

She has lost respect for you big time. That explains the way she dress now and the lack of sex.

The lost of respect is extremely hard to get back. I dont know if it is even possible since she has emotionally moved on already. Is she staying with you as a backup or out of pity or convenience?

If she's not getting the sex from you, where is she getting it?


----------



## strugglinghusband

Russ, you have all you need, ANOTHER MAN HAD HIS HANDS ON YOUR WIFE!! and she did not tell you about it, why do think that is?

Trust your gut, deep down, not your emotions...your gut feeling.

100% NO CONTACT, man its the only way, she needs to decide who's more important, you her husband or her "friend".

"Him or me babe, him or me, you cant have us both"


----------



## thatbpguy

Catherine602 said:


> It is either you or him it's that simple.


Or you or her next wonderlust.


----------



## LongWalk

> You're in a tough spot. Were I to give advice, I'd set her down, lay out all the evidence, tell her you are neither stupid nor blind and feel betrayed by her lack of honesty and integrity, but just wanted the marriage to really work, but it has not and then go about an amicable divorce. She will be free to have the guy she wants (as much as that sucks) and hopefully you can find someone who loves you.


Thatbpguy is correct that you have this card to play. It will truly shock her if you keep it very short and to the point. If you talk about it for more than 5 minutes the impact will run out in sand.

Maybe you should just play the Who song "I can see for miles and miles" in the car or on the stereo and smile at her knowingly and say "that's our song babe, really isn't it?".

She may wish to stay married to you but that will merely be fear of change and a desire for respectability. You should take all the alimony you have coming as compensation for her cheating.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

It's far too early to start telling Russ101 what to do with his wife. He's got to confront her first and learn her reaction. After D-Day everything is different.

Russ101, just be as prepared as you possibly can when you confront. Catherine602 and Longwalk are right about one thing: you confront her cooly and you keep it short and to the point. She will likely deny it all at first. That's why you need clear evidence, some of which you have already.


----------



## aug

strugglinghusband said:


> *Russ, you have all you need, ANOTHER MAN HAD HIS HANDS ON YOUR WIFE!! and she did not tell you about it, why do think that is?
> *
> Trust your gut, deep down, not your emotions...your gut feeling.



Exactly. Even your friend who told you this knows it. That's why he told you. Your friend has no emotions invested in your wife and can see more clear than you.

She cheated. Period.


----------



## ThePheonix

John, the way you describe it, your wife doesn't give a crap what you think or what bothers you; she's going to keep this cozy relationship going with this guy in spite of hell. You didn't what her following him home; she did, after allowing him to play with her leg.
In other words, when it comes to him and his needs, it appears you can kiss her azz. On top of all this, you ain't getting any. I don't know about everybody else, but I'd rather be alone than live in your situation. 
What's even more foolhardy on your part is being assuaged by her comments about her disapproval of her brother in law cheating, that she would never cheat, she's against it, etc. In all my experience, I've never seen a woman who doesn't cheat that has to go around telling her husband she doesn't cheat. She's trying to keep the latitude you've grown to accept between these two as open as possible. 
If it were me, I'd use this as a get out of jail free card and find me a younger chick without the "hormone" problems and the hangup on the groping male buddy.


----------



## akashNil

Suppose this is not PA. Then, after that incidence, Why is she STILL acting very friendly to him? She should stay away from him like snake. 

If he can touch her even once at a wrong place, she should avoid him (or even HATE him) completely. 

He must have done a lot more with her in a private place.

I am afraid that its already too late, and SHE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOU AT ALL.

One way of getting some truth: Ask the same friend (your friend who told you) about more things - HE MUST BE KNOWING A LOT MORE, AND HE HAS TOLD YOU ONLY WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS APPROPRIATE. You can verify it afterwards. But first just ask him, and also other her office co-workers. 

Sorry you are going through this.


----------



## strugglinghusband

He can just focus on that POSOM had his hands on her and she didn't say anything about it or really fend him off, by this act alone she's proven she has betrayed him.

DEMAND not ask, friggin DEMAND! she break all contact with him if she wants to stay married, no if's ands or but's. She's proven she cant handle it.

It is all about boundaries, what are yours Russ?


----------



## kenmoore14217

Well Russ101, in a month or two you will be back here and your new thread will start like this: Well, you guys told me along and I didn't listen.................................


----------



## EleGirl

kenmoore14217 said:


> Well Russ101, in a month or two you will be back here and your new thread will start like this: Well, you guys told me along and I didn't listen.................................


Russ101 has not rejected what is being said to him here so I don't know you have posted this.

He did say that since he's not using a computer in his home he can only come here every few days. So patience on our part is a virtue.


----------



## EleGirl

Again, Russ101, you do not have the evidence yet to confront your wife. Gather more evidence before you decide what to do.

Also, I suggest that you read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. Don't let your wife see you reading it. The good thing is that it's an quick read. It will give you a lot of insight of what you need to to if you want to save your marriage.

If the OM has been out of state for a few years and your wife has not seen him in this time, then their affair (EA, PA or whatever it was) has died down quite a bit. OM probably dated other women in this time.

Use the VARs and see what you can find out.


----------



## EleGirl

I am curious about one thing. You say that the OM was very drunk at the party. Yet everyone just let him drive home very drunk. Really?

When your wife decided to follow him home, you could have gone with her. Why did you allow your wife to do this without you? Becuase you were having a good time at the party?????



.


----------



## russ101

Yes, I can only get to this site when russ is home, and I can think of an excuse to get to his house for a while. My neighbor (Russ), does think based on what everybody has said, something happened whether it was emotional, or physical. I appreciate all replies and I know people are quick to judge, but I am not going to jump the gun, until I know for a fact that something happened. I have several red flags but also some signs that point to the fact that they may just be friends where he tried something with her, and got shot down (although the fact that she let him caress her leg at all is something I am going to confront her on). 


She does still keep in contact with him (about 3 calls per week, 15 minutes in length, and 3 or 4 texts) but she does not hide her phone, nor does she delete the texts for at least a week or so. I know I am still snooping from time to time, but I still read her texts with him, and there has been nothing bad in them. They mostly talk about work, just like she would with any other co-worker. She also has gained about 20 pounds over the last 3 years and says most of her nice outfits don't fit her anymore (that is why she doesn't wear her dresses any more). She also said the boss that came after Phil, didn't care if she dressed up for work (she said Phil wanted all the ladies to look their best at work).

The bottom line is: I am not a fool. I know my wife has some attraction to him. She knows I don't like the fact that she spends so much time (or at least did) with him. But I am not willing to lose my family and my wife over a male friend (as long as he is only a friend). But if the revelation that he caressed her leg for 2 or 3 min. is true. I am going to do something about it and insist on NC. I am thinking about confronting her soon about that incident, but am worried that if she lies about it, she will just end up being more careful, if this is indeed a PA. I will continue to monitor her, and when Phil comes back, am thinking about hiring a PI to follow her for a while (if I can afford it). There are a couple of more flags (two incidents that happened) about a year ago that I don't have the time to write about now but will get back to all of you when I can. 

I may confront her this weekend about the party, if I get the courage to do so. Thanks again to all who have replied.

By the way, when my wife followed him home after the party, he lived almost an hour in the other direction, and she was home when I got there and already changed. If something did happen that day, it must have been quick since I was home within 2 hours of her leaving. Not saying nothing happened, just saying it would have had to be quick.


----------



## badmemory

russ101 said:


> By the way, when my wife followed him home after the party, he lived almost an hour in the other direction, and she was home when I got there and already changed. If something did happen that day, it must have been quick since I was home within 2 hours of her leaving. Not saying nothing happened, just saying it would have had to be quick.


That's assuming they actually went to his house. Sorry, but that's another possibility you need to consider.


----------



## thatbpguy

russ101 said:


> Yes, I can only get to this site when russ is home, and I can think of an excuse to get to his house for a while. My neighbor (Russ), does think based on what everybody has said, something happened whether it was emotional, or physical. I appreciate all replies and I know people are quick to judge, but I am not going to jump the gun, until I know for a fact that something happened. I have several red flags but also some signs that point to the fact that they may just be friends where he tried something with her, and got shot down (although the fact that she let him caress her leg at all is something I am going to confront her on).
> 
> 
> She does still keep in contact with him (about 3 calls per week, 15 minutes in length, and 3 or 4 texts) but she does not hide her phone, nor does she delete the texts for at least a week or so. I know I am still snooping from time to time, but I still read her texts with him, and there has been nothing bad in them. They mostly talk about work, just like she would with any other co-worker. She also has gained about 20 pounds over the last 3 years and says most of her nice outfits don't fit her anymore (that is why she doesn't wear her dresses any more). She also said the boss that came after Phil, didn't care if she dressed up for work (she said Phil wanted all the ladies to look their best at work).
> 
> The bottom line is: I am not a fool. I know my wife has some attraction to him. She knows I don't like the fact that she spends so much time (or at least did) with him. But I am not willing to lose my family and my wife over a male friend (as long as he is only a friend). But if the revelation that he caressed her leg for 2 or 3 min. is true. I am going to do something about it and insist on NC. I am thinking about confronting her soon about that incident, but am worried that if she lies about it, she will just end up being more careful, if this is indeed a PA. I will continue to monitor her, and when Phil comes back, am thinking about hiring a PI to follow her for a while (if I can afford it). There are a couple of more flags (two incidents that happened) about a year ago that I don't have the time to write about now but will get back to all of you when I can.
> 
> I may confront her this weekend about the party, if I get the courage to do so. Thanks again to all who have replied.
> 
> By the way, when my wife followed him home after the party, he lived almost an hour in the other direction, and she was home when I got there and already changed. If something did happen that day, it must have been quick since I was home within 2 hours of her leaving. Not saying nothing happened, just saying it would have had to be quick.


Whether or not they ever got “physical” will only be known if she comes clean. But it can be agreed that she has had/has an emotional affair with him and is more attracted to him than to you. The way she dressed, the staying late so they could do whatever it was they did all those late nights at work, the incident at the party… She has chosen him over you in that sense. But I’m thinking she is unwilling to break up your family over him. They just see each other and talk when they can. It’s like you’re married to a woman who is married in her mind to him. In other words, you’re not relevant in her life as a husband or as a man. You’re the father of your kids and that’s about all you have left.

That’s why I think a frank, non emotional talk is in order. Tell her you know the marriage is only a skeleton for the kids and you know she loves him and the reasons why. If she doesn’t want to really work on the marriage then you two have some major decisions to make, but either way, tell her you just have to know. If she has even so much as an ounce of respect left for you to please just be honest, no matter how much it may hurt or make her look bad… just this once to be true. See what she tells you.


----------



## workindad

Have you checked the phone bill to see if the text count to him is reasonable? I'm asking because that was an issue on my end xw was deleting some texts but not all. You can guess what texts were deleted... See nothing to hide yeah right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ironman

russ101 said:


> I appreciate all replies and I know people are quick to judge, but I am not going to jump the gun, until I know for a fact that something happened. I have several red flags but also some signs that point to the fact that they may just be friends where he tried something with her, and got shot down (although the fact that she let him caress her leg at all is something I am going to confront her on).


Russ/John,

First of all, *if you confront her ... she is going to lie to you*. Why would she tell you the truth now? If she had it in her to deceive you all this time, what makes you think your little confrontation is going to extract any truth from her?

Personally, I think it's blatantly obvious she's been physical with him. Very, very obvious. But, you seem like the type of guy who doesn't want to face the truth unless it's staring you in the face. Guys here have tried to convince you and so far you're unwilling to accept it. Fair enough. So don't confront yet then. Don't alert her to your suspicions or else it will become just that much more difficult to get the even more obvious proof you seem to need.

At this point, you need to become patient and pretty much 007. Guys here will show you how. Some have already given you some ideas. But remain patient and act as if everything is normal. You're in for a long, torturous ride.


----------



## Iver

I think he needs to do his homework first. It's just to easy to deny, deny, deny.

VAR the car, aas well as where ever she may talk on the phone. A couple of weeks of this should help clear up some confusion. (Since her boss is coming back to town I'd guess that the phone calls are going to be on the upswing.)

If possible I'd recommend reading RDMU's thread - it's in the members section but it's an excellent view of what lengths someone cheating will go to and what RDMU had to do to catch her. (also RDMU is an example of a truly amazing response to being in such a terrible situation)

Texting via phone apps which can be invisible- or more likely via work is a real possibility. There are threads here that can help you get up to speed on them. 

Make no mistake - your marriage is on very thin ice.

Lastly MMSLP by Athol Kay - it can't hurt your current marriage and will be helpful if you are, down the road, contemplating marriage again...


----------



## crossbar

Well, you got about a month. In two weeks time, I would start planeting the VAR's again. If they plan on picking up where they left off, their communication will increase. And they may make plans on meeting up upon his arrival back into town. And maybe a graphic description as well.

If you say she's gained 20 lbs. Watch and listen. See if she says something about joining a gym or buying new clothes within the next couple of weeks. 

If she has an iphone, chances are she's charged up the phone using the home computers USB port. That means that, that phone as sync'd up with the computer. Therefore, there's a hidden file on the computer that has all the text conversations that that phone has had. Download a iphone file extractor and you should be able to pull up the file and check the texts. But, after you read them (and print them up if you have to) remove the extractor from the computer.


----------



## LongWalk

Ironman, Iver and Crossbar are right. To confront at this point is likely to fail for the simple reason that your wife hardly cares whether you are hurt. She will take the A underground deeper. 
Better to use the VAR. you will catch with that sooner rather than later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

ironman said:


> First of all, *if you confront her ... she is going to lie to you*. Why would she tell you the truth now? If she had it in her to deceive you all this time, what makes you think your little confrontation is going to extract any truth from her?


:iagree:

Whether she did anything or not, she will deny. You want to practice STFU right now. About anything. I blurted out something about finding hidden folders on my phone, and sure enough my wife glued her phone to her hip until she could in the middle of the night when I was asleep erase 900+ emails from _her_ phone.

I hope she did nothing wrong. You don't even really know how accurate the story is you are hearing from your friend. You need much better data before confronting her. If you find no other data, you can confront as a last resort but the chance of her confessing is miniscule.

I fear you will be on the same track as I am, where there is substantial circumstantial evidence suggesting something happened but no proof one way or the other. Be patient and gather data. The upcoming few months will give you good intel if you are strategic and patient.


----------



## treyvion

LongWalk said:


> Ironman, Iver and Crossbar are right. To confront at this point is likely to fail for the simple reason that your wife hardly cares whether you are hurt. She will take the A underground deeper.
> Better to use the VAR. you will catch with that sooner rather than later.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This simple fact about "hardly cares whether you are hurt", should be enough in my opinion. After having gone through it, I know how you feel and how you may look at it. You remember all the good times, maybe she cared, etc in the past.

Those days are gone. That's just how it works. The best thing you could do even if you wanted to consider her as an option in the future is to get on with your life. The quicker you do this, the less pain you need to feel. You can use all the time and care you where spending on her, to better yourself.


----------



## LongWalk

John, i suggest you stop concentrating on forensic analysis of what the scenarios you did not witness mean. Your gut is telling you the truth: Phil is player. He told the women to dress up for him, for his pleasure. He chose to consort with your wife. The others noticed and were angry and or jealous. He was doing The dirty with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting

I think it is odd that no one was bothered by the fact that her boss was going to drive home while 'very drunk'. How come his wife let him go like that and possibly get a DUI charge? He could have hit someone with his car.


----------



## weightlifter

Ugh. If he confronts her he is going to get sot down hard at about 90 percent chance. OP. don't talk to her about this and do your homework first.

Sony var icdpx312


----------



## EleGirl

Suspecting said:


> I think it is odd that no one was bothered by the fact that her boss was going to drive home while 'very drunk'. How come his wife let him go like that and possibly get a DUI charge? He could have hit someone with his car.


I brought it up a while back. I've also asked Russ101 why he did not go with his wife and let her follow a drunk man that night.

Russ101 has not addressed it.


----------



## EleGirl

Russ101.... 

Someone who was gone for 3 years moves back to town and make visits you just to tell you that 3 years ago at a party, the OM put his hand on your wife's leg. Now this guy did not tell you at the time it happened. Why did he wait 3 years to tell you? Why is it so important now and it was not important enough for him to tell you 3 years ago when it happened?

Now, 3 years later, this guy "knows" that the hand was on her leg for 2 minutes before he tried to go higher and she rebuffed him. Now how does your friend know exactly how many minutes it was? Eye witnesses are notoriously wrong. You cannot use what he told you to confront your wife. 

If it’s true she can shoot his story down in a heartbeat. And if it’s true your wife will only be more careful.

If it’s not true, then your wife has good reason to be very upset at you for taking the word of someone who thinks they saw something 3 years ago.

This is info you keep to yourself for now. It’s a heads up that you need to keep an eye on things, especially now that OM is moving back to town. 

And I have a question… After the OM moved a few years ago, did your wife continue working long hours? Or did she cut her hours back?


----------



## tom67

After the OM moved a few years ago, did your wife continue working long hours? Or did she cut her hours back?
That is a good question!


----------



## See_Listen_Love

EleGirl said:


> Russ101....
> 
> Someone who was gone for 3 years moves back to town and make visits you just to tell you that 3 years ago at a party, the OM put his hand on your wife's leg. Now this guy did not tell you at the time it happened. Why did he wait 3 years to tell you? Why is it so important now and it was not important enough for him to tell you 3 years ago when it happened?
> 
> Now, 3 years later, this guy "knows" that the hand was on her leg for 2 minutes before he tried to go higher and she rebuffed him. Now how does your friend know exactly how many minutes it was? Eye witnesses are notoriously wrong. You cannot use what he told you to confront your wife.


Maybe this guy, maybe other people knew what was going on. Now it may start all over again this guy gives you a hint. The exact mentioning of the minutes pictures the opinion and warning that it was not a 'normal' misbehavior, but the kind that displayed intimacy of the wrong kind. 

So no one should misunderstand it, but OP still manages to do so....


----------



## azteca1986

russ101 said:


> The bottom line is: I am not a fool. I know my wife has some attraction to him. She knows I don't like the fact that she spends so much time (or at least did) with him. But I am not willing to lose my family and my wife over a male friend (as long as he is only a friend).


What is wrong with this scenario? Can you not see, Russ/John? YOU are not willing to lose your family over a questionable relationship. That's fine and correct. But the choice is hers to make. SHE should have to CHOOSE. If she chooses her 'friend' over you, your wishes, your marriage of 22 years and your two children, well, he's clearly more than just 'a friend'. The ex-boss is not some life long friend of hers. He's a mere work colleague. It should be a no-brainer for her. Unless he's more than just a friend...

Her behaviour at the party shows a strange demonstration of her priorities. Her entire family ditched 'to make sure he gets home'. 

The leg incident will be dismissed as hearsay unless you handle that confrontation carefully. So think it through before you do it.


----------



## ironman

EleGirl said:


> Russ101....
> 
> Someone who was gone for 3 years moves back to town and make visits you just to tell you that 3 years ago at a party, the OM put his hand on your wife's leg. Now this guy did not tell you at the time it happened. Why did he wait 3 years to tell you? Why is it so important now and it was not important enough for him to tell you 3 years ago when it happened?
> 
> Now, 3 years later, this guy "knows" that the hand was on her leg for 2 minutes before he tried to go higher and she rebuffed him. Now how does your friend know exactly how many minutes it was? Eye witnesses are notoriously wrong. You cannot use what he told you to confront your wife.
> 
> If it’s true she can shoot his story down in a heartbeat. And if it’s true your wife will only be more careful.
> 
> If it’s not true, then your wife has good reason to be very upset at you for taking the word of someone who thinks they saw something 3 years ago.
> 
> This is info you keep to yourself for now. It’s a heads up that you need to keep an eye on things, especially now that OM is moving back to town.
> 
> And I have a question… After the OM moved a few years ago, did your wife continue working long hours? Or did she cut her hours back?


I don't buy the idea that this friend is part of some conspiracy theory for a second. There is too much circumstantial evidence to suggest that something really was going on. Who knows why he waited. It's very common for people who "know things" about somebody's spouse to not want to get involved. I see this attitude all the time. 

I do agree that confrontation is pointless for him. Initially I suggested he confront (b/c I think the evidence is overwhelming), but it's now obvious he requires more proof to overcome his denial. So now he needs to get that proof and lay low.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

OP: After rereading your initial post I think that you have very strong reasons for suspecting an affair between your wife and her boss.

The things that struck me are this:

"My wife has always put 150% into anything she did, so I never questioned it when she would be at work until 7-8:00 at night most days (Her normal work day ends at 5:00) and start working from home on the computer as soon as she finished dinner. If you knew my wife, this was normal behavior. About 4 years ago my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me. I asked her, are you? and she denied it completely, saying it was a couple of ladies that didn't like her, and because she did spend alot of time with her boss they were just gossiping. She has always been very against anyone that was cheating on their spouse and would always comment on how wrong it was, etc."

1) Basically she spent almost every waking hour talking to this guy. 3 hours after work, and the moment she gets home she's on the computer with him.

2) Her little comment about an affair with her boss reeks of a guilty conscience. It means the thought was in her mind. Maybe she didn't have one, but she was thinking about it and airing it out as a kind of veiled admission of guilt.

" I did a little investigating and found out that she was talking to her boss every night on her phone, always when she was out of the house shopping, or after I had gone to bed. I flipped out and asked her what could she possibly be talking about with him every night. She told me she and had become very close friends and talked on the phone just like she would with any other friend. She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you."


1) She talked to him AFTER you went to bed. That means she wanted to talk to him privately. There's one reason for that: intimacy. 
2) Saying that he's not even attractive is a very typical cheater response. They always try to reassure their husband saying that he's not that good looking, he has a small penis...you name it. 
3) Never cheating on you. No spouse can ever make that promise. Those who do are often trying to hide their true feelings.

"In 2010 he was transferred to another state, and my wife was devastated. It was as if a family member died. She continued to talk to him at least once every other day at night, and I did hear one conversation with him where she told him while crying how she missed him. That was the only evidence I ever got."

That is an almost certain piece of evidence. She was devastated, AND she continued talking to him and she did it at night. That should tell you everything right there.

I had a few doubts before, but now I'm almost 100% certain that this guy and your wife were and possibly still are on intimate terms with one another.

And this clinches it:

"Our sex life was great until about 6 years ago, when it has slowly dwindled down to almost nothing now. She blames this on hormones, or lack of them since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to."

No sexual interest in you at all, using hormones as a convenient excuse. Her treatment of you has been humiliating and insulting. WHy didn't you call her out on this earlier? She dumped you as a sexual partner a long time ago. Her reply that she can't help it is nothing but an escape: she doesnt' WANT to have sex with you and she doesn't care about your feelings. If she did, she would seek help to get her libido back. She's done nothing.

And one last thing: 6 years ago the sex started to drop off. 4 years ago she started to work for this guy. For 4 years you've had absolutely nothing regarding sex or intimacy from her, and it's gotten worse as time has gone by. Coincidence? Hardly.

IMO, yes, you need to get some hard evidence, but for you personally, you should have all that you need to conclude that she's in love with this guy and not you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Russ? You have had some type of confrontation before you joined didn't you? Some of the things you have stated makes this sound like an ongoing issue, that flared up with the newest revelation.


----------



## LongWalk

PreRaphaelite said:


> OP: After rereading your initial post I think that you have very strong reasons for suspecting an affair between your wife and her boss.
> 
> The things that struck me are this:
> 
> "My wife has always put 150% into anything she did, so I never questioned it when she would be at work until 7-8:00 at night most days (Her normal work day ends at 5:00) and start working from home on the computer as soon as she finished dinner. If you knew my wife, this was normal behavior. About 4 years ago my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me. I asked her, are you? and she denied it completely, saying it was a couple of ladies that didn't like her, and because she did spend alot of time with her boss they were just gossiping. She has always been very against anyone that was cheating on their spouse and would always comment on how wrong it was, etc."
> 
> 1) Basically she spend almost every waking hour talking to this guy. 3 hours after work, and the moment she gets home she's on the computer with him.
> 
> 2) Her little comment about an affair with her boss reeks of a guilty conscience. It means the thought was in her mind. Maybe she didn't have one, but she was thinking about it and airing it out as a kind of veiled admission of guilt.
> 
> " I did a little investigating and found out that she was talking to her boss every night on her phone, always when she was out of the house shopping, or after I had gone to bed. I flipped out and asked her what could she possibly be talking about with him every night. She told me she and had become very close friends and talked on the phone just like she would with any other friend. She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you."
> 
> 
> 1) She talked to him AFTER you went to bed. That means she wanted to talk to him privately. There's one reason for that: intimacy.
> 2) Saying that he's not even attractive is a very typical cheater response. They always try to reassure their husband saying that he's not that good looking, he has a small penis...you name it.
> 3) Never cheating on you. No spouse can ever make that promise. Those who do are often trying to hide their true feelings.
> 
> "In 2010 he was transferred to another state, and my wife was devastated. It was as if a family member died. She continued to talk to him at least once every other day at night, and I did hear one conversation with him where she told him while crying how she missed him. That was the only evidence I ever got."
> 
> That is an almost certain piece of evidence. She was devastated, AND she continued talking to him and she did it at night. That should tell you everything right there.
> 
> I had a few doubts before, but now I'm almost 100% certain that this guy and your wife were and possibly still are on intimate terms with one another.


The evidence is overwhelming. Moreover it is censored by OP who wants to soft peddle the facts. But even he cannot avoid seeing how bad it is. It is the will to crush the A that he lacks. But that will change as the danger increases. He already knows that time is not on his side.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

LongWalk said:


> The evidence is overwhelming. Moreover it is censored by OP who wants to soft peddle the facts. But even he cannot avoid seeing how bad it is. It is the will to crush the A that he lacks. But that will change as the danger increases. He already knows that time is not on his side.


Yep, here's the scenario:

His wife has been having an affair with her boss going on 4 years. 

He gets transferred and has to leave. She calls off the affair and is devastated.

He's coming back and she's very happy.

Coming attractions: the PA will resume very shortly after he gets back.

I'd bet half my savings on this one.


----------



## just got it 55

Russ this is a good opportunity to have the heart to heart pillow talk with her. It needs to be about the lack of sex and intimacy in your relationship/marriage and the real reason why. You must get her to open up to the heart of the matter.

You must tell her for the sake of your and her happiness this must be addressed. Tell her you do not accept her reasons of the past. Tell her that you have felt shut out of her life and as her husband this is not acceptable.

Ask her what her plans for repairing these feelings are. If she asks if this has anything to do with the return of the OM, that will be telling. You must convey your disapproval of her obsessive relationship/”friendship”. 

An hour upon hour on the phone and or the computer is by definition excessive. Of course she will say that you are overreacting and distorting the situation. Put it on the line in this way is our marriage worth the distress this is causing me and therefore us ?

Do this as a proactive measure and not in an accusing manor. You do not want her to go further underground.

This will not have any immediate benefit but it will set the groundwork for a future should there be one if you ultimately want one. If not all is lost already .


----------



## russ101

I only have a quick minute for an update:

to answer the following: I should have been the one to follow her boss home and not her. My kids were having a very good time there (water sking, moonwalk etc) and I stayed for a while longer (don't know exactly, but best guess would be 1-2 hours max). I should have told her to stay with the kids. My screw up. I knew this 10 ;minutes after she left. I actually called her about 20 minutes after she should have arrived at his house and she picked up the phone right away (I could tell she was in her car driving) and she said she just left his place, and he didn't drive that bad at all, and that she should have stayed at the party. At least the timing seemed right to me. That is the good news.

To answer the other question, no she did not continue to work long hours after her boss left, in fact she stated how she couldn't stand her new boss and couldn't wait to get out every day. (bad news).

I don't think I am going to confront her yet, even though many on here think I should. I just don't think I have enough evidence to do this yet. I am going to go stealth on her for a while. Will get back later. Thanks to all who have posted. I have gotten some very good ideas from all of you.


----------



## 2asdf2

PreRaphaelite said:


> Yep, here's the scenario:
> 
> His wife has been having an affair with her boss going on 4 years.
> 
> He gets transferred and has to leave. She calls off the affair and is devastated.
> 
> He's coming back and she's very happy.
> 
> Coming attractions: the PA will resume very shortly after he gets back.
> 
> *I'd bet half my savings on this one.*


How do you split a penny? 

Joke, joke, joke!


----------



## PreRaphaelite

russ101 said:


> I only have a quick minute for an update:
> 
> to answer the following: I should have been the one to follow her boss home and not her. My kids were having a very good time there (water sking, moonwalk etc) and I stayed for a while longer (don't know exactly, but best guess would be 1-2 hours max). I should have told her to stay with the kids. My screw up. I knew this 10 ;minutes after she left. I actually called her about 20 minutes after she should have arrived at his house and she picked up the phone right away (I could tell she was in her car driving) and she said she just left his place, and he didn't drive that bad at all, and that she should have stayed at the party. At least the timing seemed right to me. That is the good news.
> 
> To answer the other question, no she did not continue to work long hours after her boss left, in fact she stated how she couldn't stand her new boss and couldn't wait to get out every day. (bad news).
> 
> I don't think I am going to confront her yet, even though many on here think I should. I just don't think I have enough evidence to do this yet. I am going to go stealth on her for a while. Will get back later. Thanks to all who have posted. I have gotten some very good ideas from all of you.


I don't want to cause you further hurt, but from what you have described, it sounds like your marriage has been dead for 4 years. Have you and your wife shared any intimacy in that time and has she actually shown you that she cares for you? Or has she just tuned you out?


----------



## PreRaphaelite

2asdf2 said:


> How do you split a penny?
> 
> Joke, joke, joke!


Hey, I got a minimum wage job yesterday. I'm rich now!


----------



## PreRaphaelite

russ101 said:


> To answer the other question, no she did not continue to work long hours after her boss left, in fact she stated how she couldn't stand her new boss and couldn't wait to get out every day. (bad news).
> 
> Yet another red flag.
> 
> I don't think I am going to confront her yet, even though many on here think I should. I just don't think I have enough evidence to do this yet. I am going to go stealth on her for a while.


Sensible plan. You might consider hiring a PI.


----------



## ExisaWAW

John, everyone here is rooting for you. There are a lot of suggestions here, most are spot on. Whether or not you take them is up to you. One thing is for certain, you are entering the BS fog. Yes, you were betrayed. 

Whether she had a EA or PA is unclear. What is clear is she had an inappropriate relationship. While in the fog, you may want to downplay any evidence you find. This is your mind's way of protecting itself from pain. Try to be as objective as possible as you proceed & see things how they really are, not how you want them to be.

Hopefully you will gather evidence & post it here. There's a thread out there for how to catch a cheating spouse, that should give you other ideas. 

Good luck & stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thatbpguy

russ101 said:


> I don't think I am going to confront her yet, even though many on here think I should. I just don't think I have enough evidence to do this yet. I am going to go stealth on her for a while. Will get back later. Thanks to all who have posted. I have gotten some very good ideas from all of you.


I say confront her now and here's why.


The circumstantial evidence for an EA is overwhelming and she has to admit to it. The evidence for a PA is circumstantially strong but probably will never be fully proven. 

But this is a marriage you're in. A relationship between 2 people. And she loves another man. By my way of thinking, something needs to be done about it- up or down.

Maybe go and talk to the OM first about it all. Tell him you know he loves your wife and she him. Ask for some honesty from him. Tell him about the leg thing that was witnessed (maybe even say you saw it so it can't be debated. You didn't intervene as you knew he was drunk.). 

I can't help but thinking you're rug sweeping this. If you get it all out, either maybe your wife will lose her fog and the two of you can move forward together as a couple and repair the marriage or for one reason or another it's time to stand aside and let her have him and forge a more honest life for yourself.


----------



## arbitrator

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: *The EA is the true "killer" of the marriage* ~ that's where the WS successfully detaches and moves on to get emotionally involved with someone that they usually already know.

*The PA is really nothingmore other than the physiological consumation of that illicit emotional relationship with their new love interest. *

MC is probably the only viable "chance," if any, to circumvent the EA; but it usually comes with only an extremely low expected rate of return on the investment itself!


----------



## PreRaphaelite

thatbpguy said:


> I say confront her now and here's why.
> 
> 
> The circumstantial evidence for an EA is overwhelming and she has to admit to it. The evidence for a PA is circumstantially strong but probably will never be fully proven.
> 
> But this is a marriage you're in. A relationship between 2 people. And she loves another man. By my way of thinking, something needs to be done about it- up or down.
> 
> Maybe go and talk to the OM first about it all. Tell him you know he loves your wife and she him. Ask for some honesty from him. Tell him about the leg thing that was witnessed (maybe even say you saw it so it can't be debated. You didn't intervene as you knew he was drunk.).
> 
> I can't help but thinking you're rug sweeping this. If you get it all out, either maybe your wife will lose her fog and the two of you can move forward together as a couple and repair the marriage or for one reason or another it's time to stand aside and let her have him and forge a more honest life for yourself.


I think I agree with you about confronting now, but I disagree about going to talk to the OM. Bad idea. 

He's got to confront his wife first. And yes, when you do confront her, be prepared to let her go and walk away from the marriage. Read the 1001 threads that will tell you the same thing: it's the only way to save your marriage or to save your dignity and forge a new life for yourself.

Although MattMatt may disagree about it being the only way.


----------



## Entropy3000

arbitrator said:


> If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: *The EA is the true "killer" of the marriage* ~ that's where the WS successfully detaches and moves on to get emotionally involved with someone that they usually already know.
> 
> *The PA is really nothingmore other than the physiological consumation of that illicit emotional relationship with their new love interest. *
> 
> MC is probably the only viable "chance," if any, to circumvent the EA; but it usually comes with only an extremely low expected rate of return on the investment itself!


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

The EA destroys the marriage. The PA is just things playing out. One must kill the EA as early as possible.

His problem now is her anticipation of this guys return. She is already emotionally and physically ramping up for this. The closer it gets the more difficult. Once he gets back it will explode. By then if he tries to make her make the choice she is most likley going to leave the marriage for what ever crumbs she can get from the other guy. Not making her choose now is losing the opportunity. The fact he does not see that the relationship cannot continue is hard to believe.


----------



## Entropy3000

PreRaphaelite said:


> I think I agree with you about confronting now, but I disagree about going to talk to the OM. Bad idea.
> 
> He's got to confront his wife first. And yes, when you do confront her, be prepared to let her go and walk away from the marriage. Read the 1001 threads that will tell you the same thing: it's the only way to save your marriage or to save your dignity and forge a new life for yourself.
> 
> Although MattMatt may disagree about it being the only way.


Talking to the OM is horrible. That is begging another man to not bang your wife. That is saying my wife is yours for the taking. He will get off on it. And it will only encourage him more. No he has to deal with his wife on this one. She cannot stay working there. If he confronted earlier she would have had a chance to find a job before she quit.


----------



## just got it 55

Entropy3000 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> The EA destroys the marriage. The PA is just things playing out. One must kill the EA as early as possible.
> 
> His problem now is her anticipation of this guys return. She is already emotionally and physically ramping up for this. The closer it gets the more difficult. Once he gets back it will explode. By then if he tries to make her make the choice she is most likley going to leave the marriage for what ever crumbs she can get from the other guy. Not making her choose now is losing the opportunity. The fact he does not see that the relationship cannot continue is hard to believe.


Thats why I suggested the pillow talk now end this S!IT NOW


----------



## JCD

russ101 said:


> I know some of you think I am over reacting, but I just cannot picture my wife letting a another man caress her leg for several minutes without something going on. If this was any other man, she would have pulled away immediately after they had put their hand on her leg. It wasn't until (according to my friend) he started up her dress that she pulled his hand off. I personally think this was because she knew nothing could happen there or she was afraid someone might catch them. But I don't really know. This is what is so confusing to me.


Once I got very drunk. I stroked the leg of an (engaged) woman I was very attracted to. It was just the calf, but she took it for what it was and never bothered me about it or held it against me as far as I know. She COULD. Have made a very big deal about it (her intended was a COP), but she didn't.

So believe what you want, but it ain't necessarily so.

She was definitely too emotionally close to this guy however.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Once I got very drunk. I stroked the leg of an (engaged) woman I was very attracted to. It was just the calf, but she took it for what it was and never bothered me about it or held it against me as far as I know. She COULD. Have made a very big deal about it (her intended was a COP), but she didn't.
> 
> So believe what you want, but it ain't necessarily so.
> 
> She was definitely too emotionally close to this guy however.


If she let you stroke her calf for several minutes then she was digging it. So in her own way she was not being entirely faithful to her fiance since she allowed it. Perhaps she pulled away. A calf is not the same as the back of the thigh which is not the same as a bare behind and so on. All should be off limits however.

So in his case they were actually married for many years, there was already an EA going on for an extended time, they were not in the in love period of their relationship, and it was the back of her thigh. Shades of course. But not the same. What they have in common is unfaithfulness. The degree being different. Oh and lets add that this was her boss. A minor detail.

All of this relates to kino escalation. The breaking down of possible boundaries. Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. She regularly was isolated one on one with the man. She was available to him always one way or another.

Maybe you are just saying there is no telling how she would react to any number of guys in this same situation and that is valid. A faithful married woman does not allow a guy to caress the back of her thighs. That is something that is done when there has already been intimacy. It is most likely he was inviting her home with him. Whatever. Really does not matter. There is nothing innocent about any of it.


----------



## treyvion

Entropy3000 said:


> If she let you stroke her calf for several minutes then she was digging it. So in her own way she was not being entirely faithful to her fiance since she allowed it. Perhaps she pulled away. A calf is not the same as the back of the thigh which is not the same as a bare behind and so on. All should be off limits however.


She may not have been digging it. Perhaps was kinda embarrassed to say anything, but if it got to a worse place she could have responded. You never know. I've been in the situation as a man, and have been into a few of the different scenarios.



Entropy3000 said:


> So in his case they were actually married for many years, there was already an EA going on for an extended time, they were not in the in love period of their relationship, and it was the back of her thigh. Shades of course. But not the same. What they have in common is unfaithfulness. The degree being different. Oh and lets add that this was her boss. A minor detail.
> 
> All of this relates to kino escalation. The breaking down of possible boundaries. Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. She regularly was isolated one on one with the man. She was available to him always one way or another.
> 
> Maybe you are just saying there is no telling how she would react to any number of guys in this same situation and that is valid. A faithful married woman does not allow a guy to caress the back of her thighs. That is something that is done when there has already been intimacy. It is most likely he was inviting her home with him. Whatever. Really does not matter. There is nothing innocent about any of it.


----------



## Entropy3000

treyvion said:


> She may not have been digging it. Perhaps was kinda embarrassed to say anything, but if it got to a worse place she could have responded. *You never know.* I've been in the situation as a man, and have been into a few of the different scenarios.


A faithful woman does not allow another man to caress her legs. Embarrassment? GMAFB.

You have been in a situation as a man and have caressed a faithful married woman's legs and you know they did not dig it and you know they let you do it because they were embarrassed? Right. That happens. 

But what ever the "reason" for allowing it, it does not change the fact that it is unfaithful. Being embarrassed, surprised, drunk, seduced, or whatever does not change a boundary. Not enforcing a boundary is the issue. The boundary is still shattered.

You know there are these games people suggest all of the time on this forum about how boundaries slip and the rules change because of this that and the other and all of that is just mind games. Rationalization. Oh, I was drinking too much. So it was ok to not enforce a boundary. Oh I was embarrassed so I let this man not my husband caress my thighs. Oh the moon was so bright and it was such a lovely evening I forgot to be faithful. I got caught up in the moment.

All of this is nonsense. People let boundaries slide because they make a choice to do so. Adults are not five year olds. I totally get that kino works. But it works because people have very poor boundaries. They like playing just the tip. A faithful married woman does not put herself in isolation with this guy and allow him to caress her thighs. I for sure have tighter boundaries than many. That in and of itself would be a dealbreaker for me. But that is just me. On what planet or what culture is a husband ok with his wife allowing that that was not in an open marriage? It is very much a hotwifing type scenario.


----------



## treyvion

Entropy3000 said:


> A faithful woman does not allow another man to caress her legs. Embarrassment? GMAFB.
> 
> You have been in a situation as a man and have caressed a married woman's legs and you know they did not dig it and you know they let you do it because they were embarrassed. Right. That happens.


No. It was done to me, I shyly moved away from it, but i did not embarrass her, and it never happened again. I didn't firmly and explosively defend my boundaries. I'm for one, not putting yourself in positions where you can disrespect your relationship. 




Entropy3000 said:


> But what ever the "reason" for allowing it, it does not change the fact that it is unfaithful. Being embarrassed, surprised, drunk, seduced, or whatever does not change a boundary. Not enforcing a boundary is the issue. The boundary is still shattered.


A wife or husband can be going out. Partying with friends. Add in some alcohol, and occasionally these things will occur. They will shyly dissmiss it, not giving it power, not desiring it to have occured. What they don't know, what I am experiened enough to accept, is the things we do reflect a path, and if they keep going into that situation, eventually they will probably cheat.



Entropy3000 said:


> You know there are these games people suggest all of the time on this forum about how boundaries slip and the rules change because of this that and the other and all of tht is just mind games. Rationalization. Oh, I was drinking too much. So it was ok to not enforce a boundary. Oh I was embarrassed so I let this man not my husband caress my thighs. Oh the moon was so bright and it was such a lovely evening I forgot to be faithful.


Oh. People who don't really know how easy it is to take steps in the path of cheating, will probably make a mistake that millions make each year. In time it will likely occur. I personally know for a fact I wouldn't want to hurt someone I care about in this way ever ever again. But I know that for a fact because I've made the mistake when I was younger, and I also had it done to me.



Entropy3000 said:


> All of this is nonsense. People let boundaries sklide because they make a choice to do so. Adults are not five year olds. I totally get that kino works. But it works because people have very poor boundaries. A faithful married woman does not put herself in isolation with this guy and allow him to caress her thighs. I for sure have tighter boundaries than many. That in and of itself would be a dealbreaker for me. But that is just me. On what planet or what culture is a husband ok with his wife allowing that that was not in an open marriage? It is very much a hotwifing type scenario.


Some more liberal folks aren't enforcing boundaries like the liquid mercury "smith" cop on the movie terminator. I mean there are degrees of enforcement, to no degrees - like I said, shyly dismissing it. Perhaps they thought it was ok, but it's not and as long as it doesn't happen again there is no reason to jump down anyones throat.

I do agree that the leg grab may have been one thing, but the crotch grab should have been an eye opener to the spouse and she shouldn't be talking to him, if she wasn't trying to encourage it. It is possible she likes the attention and doesn't want the sex part, you never know. But I wouldn't want to be the recipient of it.


----------



## Entropy3000

No mistakes. Choices. This is the key. Indeed people can be very naive and have poor boundaries and make poor choices. They have another choice, which is to learn from it.

But back to this thread. Even with the thigh caressing, there is plenty of evidence for an EA. The story about the encounter was just validation. While I can believe EAs can go on for a long time I would say that typically they reach a critical mass. They turn romantic and then sexual. If this went on for years it is just as likely that this affair heated up go serious and then cooled down and cycled again. 

But one has to ask at this point why he would even want to stay married to her.

Liberal boundaries are what kino is all about. This is playing just the tip.

But you know these are really not the boundries in question right now. What are John's boundaries? I am not so sure he knows.


----------



## Caribbean Man

arbitrator said:


> *Well, it would certainly appear that her "dopamine levels" literally seem to shoot through the roof whenever Mr. Bossman is around her! In person or otherwise!*


This^^^right here is called " conventional wisdom, aka, common sense."

Her hormones levels are flat with you but they are sky high with "_the boss._"
Funny how that works...


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> *But one has to ask at this point why he would even want to stay married to her.*


:iagree:

Seems to me like he's either afraid of loosing her, but he has already lost her , or he's afraid of her.


----------



## PieceOfSky

northland said:


> You say your wife is computer savvy so you picked a username to match the name of your friend and then you come right out and say your real name and age?


OP,

This is confusing to me as well. In fact, it makes no sense to me at all. There are much better ways to mask your identity. What was the appeal of borrowing your friends account exactly?

And, when did the real Russ101 stop posting and you start?

Frankly, I am worried you just did not want to create a second account from the same IP.


----------



## JCD

@ Entropy3000

I agree she is certainly flirting with an EA. Indisputable.

HOWEVER...I believe you are being a bit...militant on this issue. There are no good choices. If she lets him touch her leg, she disrespects her husband a little. If she hauls off and slaps him then quits in high dudgeon, she loses her $50,000 a year job. That is a VERY expensive price for a touch. If she just pulls away, she might offend a friend she values. 

So she tried to split the difference. Yes, rationalization can lead to very poor choices, but you neglect to put any weight on the fact that unseen by anyone, i.e. free to be herself, she held firm to a boundary. Others are gleefully making sh*t up to explain this away so she is seen in the ABSOLUTE WORST light possible.

And not to put too fine a point on it, but women face this crap everyday. Their reactions to it, particularly their OVERreactions to it can have huge professional implications.

Ask your wife what some of her friends have dealt with over the years so it's not personal to you two. You'll probably get an education.

No, it isn't nice shiny Pollyanna pure white...but life is a bit grubby sometimes.

Put it this way, how hard would you rebuff your boss if this hypothetical female gave you a scorching hot kiss at the Christmas party? Gonna quit?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



JCD said:


> @ Entropy3000
> 
> I agree she is certainly flirting with an EA. Indisputable.
> 
> HOWEVER...I believe you are being a bit...militant on this issue. There are no good choices. If she lets him touch her leg, she disrespects her husband a little. If she hauls off and slaps him then quits in high dudgeon, she loses her $50,000 a year job. That is a VERY expensive price for a touch. If she just pulls away, she might offend a friend she values.
> 
> So she tried to split the difference. Yes, rationalization can lead to very poor choices, but you neglect to put any weight on the fact that unseen by anyone, i.e. free to be herself, she held firm to a boundary. Others are gleefully making sh*t up to explain this away so she is seen in the ABSOLUTE WORST light possible.
> 
> And not to put too fine a point on it, but women face this crap everyday. Their reactions to it, particularly their OVERreactions to it can have huge professional implications.
> 
> Ask your wife what some of her friends have dealt with over the years so it's not personal to you two. You'll probably get an education.
> 
> No, it isn't nice shiny Pollyanna pure white...but life is a bit grubby sometimes.
> 
> Put it this way, how hard would you rebuff your boss if this hypothetical female gave you a scorching hot kiss at the Christmas party? Gonna quit?


No I wouldn't quit. I would go to human resources. If nothing happened then I would quit. A job is a job. They come and go. A marriage is (supposed to be) for life. I'd live in a cardboard box before I'd let any job threaten my marriage or family.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

JCD said:


> @ Entropy3000
> 
> I agree she is certainly flirting with an EA. Indisputable.
> 
> HOWEVER...I believe you are being a bit...militant on this issue. There are no good choices. If she lets him touch her leg, she disrespects her husband a little. If she hauls off and slaps him then quits in high dudgeon, she loses her $50,000 a year job. That is a VERY expensive price for a touch. If she just pulls away, she might offend a friend she values.
> 
> So she tried to split the difference. Yes, rationalization can lead to very poor choices, but you neglect to put any weight on the fact that unseen by anyone, i.e. free to be herself, she held firm to a boundary. Others are gleefully making sh*t up to explain this away so she is seen in the ABSOLUTE WORST light possible.
> 
> And not to put too fine a point on it, but women face this crap everyday. Their reactions to it, particularly their OVERreactions to it can have huge professional implications.
> 
> Ask your wife what some of her friends have dealt with over the years so it's not personal to you two. You'll probably get an education.
> 
> No, it isn't nice shiny Pollyanna pure white...but life is a bit grubby sometimes.
> 
> Put it this way, how hard would you rebuff your boss if this hypothetical female gave you a scorching hot kiss at the Christmas party? Gonna quit?


This incident is not an isolated one, and that's why it has to be considered as more than just a woman dealing with an advance from her boss. It's the same man she was spending 2-3 hours after work with, whom she was talking to on the phone every night, especially after her husband was asleep, and who was devastated by his transfer, meaning that she wouldn't be seeing him again at work.

This is much more than just coincidence.


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> No I wouldn't quit. I would go to human resources. If nothing happened then I would quit. A job is a job. They come and go. A marriage is (supposed to be) for life. I'd live in a cardboard box before I'd let any job threaten my marriage or family.


Yeah...and once that gets around the office, she's done for professionally....at least there. Because every single guy there has WHILE DRUNK done SOMETHING 'off' with a woman. She is ruining a man's reputation for a leg stroke WHILE DRUNK. 

(Sarcasm) Sign me up to be HER partner at work...cause she will come across as a hypersensitive beeatch. Who wants to risk his career like that?

And throw away lines like 'cardboard box' is easy when you are employed. I have three neighbors who haven't had jobs for several YEARS.

For a leg stroke..._riiiiigghhhht_



PreRaphaelite said:


> This incident is not an isolated one, and that's why it has to be considered as more than just a woman dealing with an advance from her boss. It's the same man she was spending 2-3 hours after work with, whom she was talking to on the phone every night, especially after her husband was asleep, and who was devastated by his transfer, meaning that she wouldn't be seeing him again at work.
> 
> This is much more than just coincidence.


Working more on the principle and Internet "tough-guy-itis" then her particular situation. As stated, she's mucking about. I know EAs. Even if it's platonic, this guy is taking up too much mental space in her life.

But...even snooping, the OP can't even find an 'I love you' to hang his baton, much less sexting or promises of carnal bliss.

So...why is his wife so distant from him? I can tell you in my instance, the distance came before the EA. THEY need to get to counseling or self help to fix their marriage STAT.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> @ Entropy3000
> 
> I agree she is certainly flirting with an EA. Indisputable.
> 
> HOWEVER...I believe you are being a bit...militant on this issue. There are no good choices. If she lets him touch her leg, she disrespects her husband a little. If she hauls off and slaps him then quits in high dudgeon, she loses her $50,000 a year job. That is a VERY expensive price for a touch. If she just pulls away, she might offend a friend she values.
> 
> So she tried to split the difference. Yes, rationalization can lead to very poor choices, but you neglect to put any weight on the fact that unseen by anyone, i.e. free to be herself, she held firm to a boundary. Others are gleefully making sh*t up to explain this away so she is seen in the ABSOLUTE WORST light possible.
> 
> And not to put too fine a point on it, but women face this crap everyday. Their reactions to it, particularly their OVERreactions to it can have huge professional implications.
> 
> Ask your wife what some of her friends have dealt with over the years so it's not personal to you two. You'll probably get an education.
> 
> No, it isn't nice shiny Pollyanna pure white...but life is a bit grubby sometimes.
> 
> Put it this way, how hard would you rebuff your boss if this hypothetical female gave you a scorching hot kiss at the Christmas party? Gonna quit?


If you read the whole thread you will see that this was not flirting with an EA. It is at least a very advanced EA.

EAs have nothing to do with a man caressing a womans leg. That is a physical affair or sexual harassment to the point of assault.

Your comment is completely absurd that it is even a choice for a faithful married woman to allow a boss to caress her leg in fear for her to lose a job. Your just playing now for your entertainment. 

This is yet again an attempt for folks to come up with all sorts of hypothetical reasons for people to behave unfaithfully. What great sport.

If my female boss tried that I would not let her. And yes I would not work for her after that.

If my wifes boss at a party tried that on her he would not be eating solid food for a while and she would quit on the spot. There would be a sexual harassment / assault charge filed to leverage the HR to take action on this boss.

But your suggestions are not at all congruent with this story. She pursued this guy. This was not a case of unreported sexual harassment.

Are you married?


----------



## Entropy3000

bfree said:


> No I wouldn't quit. I would go to human resources. If nothing happened then I would quit. A job is a job. They come and go. A marriage is (supposed to be) for life. *I'd live in a cardboard box before I'd let any job threaten my marriage or family.*


Exactly. What kind of self worth would anyone have to have to allow this kinda crap?


----------



## JCD

Entropy3000 said:


> Exactly. What kind of self worth would anyone have to have to allow this kinda crap?


The kind which has some self worth but also values a roof?


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Yeah...and once that gets around the office, she's done for professionally....at least there. Because every single guy there has WHILE DRUNK done SOMETHING 'off' with a woman. She is ruining a man's reputation for a leg stroke WHILE DRUNK.
> 
> (Sarcasm) Sign me up to be HER partner at work...cause she will come across as a hypersensitive beeatch. Who wants to risk his career like that?
> 
> And throw away lines like 'cardboard box' is easy when you are employed. I have three neighbors who haven't had jobs for several YEARS.
> 
> For a leg stroke..._riiiiigghhhht_
> 
> 
> 
> Working more on the principle and Internet "tough-guy-itis" then her particular situation. As stated, she's mucking about. I know EAs. Even if it's platonic, this guy is taking up too much mental space in her life.
> 
> But...even snooping, the OP can't even find an 'I love you' to hang his baton, much less sexting or promises of carnal bliss.
> 
> So...why is his wife so distant from him? I can tell you in my instance, the distance came before the EA. THEY need to get to counseling or self help to fix their marriage STAT.


You have to be joking. This is completely absurd. You must be watching too many episodes of Mad Men. 

She would not be ruining a man's reputation. He owns that. Guys do not have a free pass to do something off with a married woman. Where I live when guy does this the least of his problems are with HR and the law.

A leg stroke could lose your job, kill your reputation for finding another, get you a night in jail or the hospital. If you are married, it could end your marriage, cost you alimony and child support. If you are a boss in a real job you are talking serious money. Do the math.

You must be bored.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> The kind which has some self worth but also values a roof?


A false choice my man.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



JCD said:


> Yeah...and once that gets around the office, she's done for professionally....at least there. Because every single guy there has WHILE DRUNK done SOMETHING 'off' with a woman. She is ruining a man's reputation for a leg stroke WHILE DRUNK.
> 
> (Sarcasm) Sign me up to be HER partner at work...cause she will come across as a hypersensitive beeatch. Who wants to risk his career like that?
> 
> And throw away lines like 'cardboard box' is easy when you are employed. I have three neighbors who haven't had jobs for several YEARS.
> 
> For a leg stroke..._riiiiigghhhht_
> 
> 
> 
> Working more on the principle and Internet "tough-guy-itis" then her particular situation. As stated, she's mucking about. I know EAs. Even if it's platonic, this guy is taking up too much mental space in her life.
> 
> But...even snooping, the OP can't even find an 'I love you' to hang his baton, much less sexting or promises of carnal bliss.
> 
> So...why is his wife so distant from him? I can tell you in my instance, the distance came before the EA. THEY need to get to counseling or self help to fix their marriage STAT.


Sorry friend. Both my wife and I put our money where our mouths are. We both left well paying jobs and took serious pay cuts to work jobs that were more conducive to family and marriage. What you have to ask yourself is does the job support the marriage or does the marriage support the job? For us the answer was clear.


----------



## LongWalk

JCD, you make a pretty good argument. It may even have some validity. However, if you go back reread OP's description of the emotional impact that the boss has had on his wife the attachment is extremely alarming.

When he left she was devastated. Surely that was not because she felt that his transfer harmed shareholder interests. After his departure she stopped dressing up to go to work. At the farewell party her concern for the boss went beyond loyal subordinate. She went out of the party to make out with him. It was not the first time they made out, you can be sure of that.

It is within the realm of possibility that they never had sexual intercourse. However, one poster long ago argued that EA's typically climax to PA. There is pattern measured in months rather, not years.

The other damning fact is OP's wife actually early on warned him that women from the office might call him up and accuse her of an affair. That suggests that the affair did happen. If WW were concerned about this rumor reaching her husband, why did she continue to dress up and court his attention.

One tragic aspect is that she comes across as rather naive and schoolgirlish. She has been rather unguarded in her expressions of emotion. She has been in love with OM.

If the OP were to now propose to his wife that the two of them should eat healthier, lose weight and train the gym, it is very likely she would agree with and actually do it.


----------



## JCD

Yes I am married. And if I saw a random stranger/co-worker or even boss do that to her, something would happen. The boss would probably get his hand removed and twisted a bit. The peons would probably get a smack across the chops. But I can do that!

See, I'm NOT her and I don't need to work with them. So I get to take all the 'blame' and her career is untarnished...except every wannabe Lothario now knows to check his dental plan before he hits in her.

But SHE was facing this situation alone. It is her choices she'd be judged on. And unlike me, who is a badger and hates everyone, she is FRIENDS with these people. MOST people tend to cut their friends a little slack on the boundary department, particularly when drunk.


----------



## bfree

Did my wife and I suffer financially from our decision? Yes. But we managed. If the choice is a happy family vs. being able to afford the GI Joe with the Kung Fu grip I'll take the happy family every time.


----------



## JCD

LongWalk said:


> JCD, you make a pretty good argument. It may even have some validity. However, if you go back reread OP's description of the emotional impact that the boss has had on his wife the attachment is extremely alarming.
> 
> When he left she was devastated. Surely that was not because she felt that his transfer harmed shareholder interests. After his departure she stopped dressing up to go to work. At the farewell party her concern for the boss went beyond loyal subordinate. She went out of the party to make out with him. It was not the first time they made out, you can be sure of that.
> 
> It is within the realm of possibility that they never had sexual intercourse. However, one poster long ago argued that EA's typically climax to PA. There is pattern measured in months rather, not years.
> 
> The other damning fact is OP's wife actually early on warned him that women from the office might call him up and accuse her of an affair. That suggests that the affair did happen. If WW were concerned about this rumor reaching her husband, why did she continue to dress up and court his attention.
> 
> One tragic aspect is that she comes across as rather naive and schoolgirlish. She has been rather unguarded in her expressions of emotion. She has been in love with OM.
> 
> If the OP were to now propose to his wife that the two of them should eat healthier, lose weight and train the gym, it is very likely she would agree with and actually do it.


Did I miss where they 'made out'? I read they drove to his house and the timing was NOT suspicious to the OP for the distances involved. Now if you want to believe the conspiracy theories that have them stopping at the nearest overpass to have sex,that's okay but it's facts not in evidence.

I read when he tried to touch her cooter, she stopped him.
And yes, is this the FIFTH time I've said EA? Why...yes it is...


----------



## JCD

bfree said:


> Did my wife and I suffer financially from our decision? Yes. But we managed. If the choice is a happy family vs. being able to afford the GI Joe with the Kung Fu grip I'll take the happy family every time.


And I applaud you for that. But it is a cruddy choice to have to make. You know what else is a cruddy choice? Having a drooling drunk touch your leg. She weighed her costs differently.

I've known many upstanding women who were GENTLY able to dissuade a drunken idiot to leave off. But the touch still happens and maybe for more than the 5 pico seconds that a 'faithful' wife would allow.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Yes I am married. And if I saw a random stranger/co-worker or even boss do that to her, something would happen. The boss would probably get his hand removed and twisted a bit. The peons would probably get a smack across the chops. But I can do that!
> 
> See, I'm NOT her and I don't need to work with them. So I get to take all the 'blame' and her career is untarnished...except every wannabe Lothario now knows to check his dental plan before he hits in her.
> 
> But SHE was facing this situation alone. It is her choices she'd be judged on. And unlike me, who is a badger and hates everyone, she is FRIENDS with these people. MOST people tend to cut their friends a little slack on the boundary department, particularly when drunk.


I would treat a boss much more harshly than a peon. 

If you are trying to bring this back to this thread that is great. In the context of this thread, she and this guy have a much better realtionship than her husband. She is more about being faithful to this guy than her husband.

Byzantine generals problem. What does he believe. His wife behaving this way is very plausible given the context. He has every reason to believe the story. The true absurdity is that he did not engage this before this information. 

But whatever the reason the wife chose to allow this guy this access is secondary. She did. She chose this guy over her husband. You like to cut your friends this slack because of drinking. I have tons of experience drinking and tons of experience with people who allow all sorts of crap. In fact many people just play at being drunk so they can live out the life of having no boundaries. Being drunk is no excuse. I know that really upsets those who lead their life by claiming I was drinking so the rules do not apply. 

Ok so check. If this was your wife you would cut her some slack. Noted. I would never have allowed the EA to continue. Noted. But this guy has. 

It is unclear what his boundaries are. His dealbreakers. I suggest he decide pretty quickly because the clock is ticking. The problem for him only gets worse. The train whistle is blaring around the bend. Will he snatch his marriage off the tracks? Is the marriage already a train wreck and not worth saving? He must decide. Right now he is waiting.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> And I applaud you for that. But it is a cruddy choice to have to make. You know what else is a cruddy choice? Having a drooling drunk touch your leg. She weighed her costs differently.
> 
> I've known many upstanding women who were GENTLY able to dissuade a drunken idiot to leave off. But the touch still happens and maybe for more than the 5 pico seconds that a 'faithful' wife would allow.


Yes, many women have weak boundaries. But you are assuming she allowed it for this reason which is not in evidence. You have made this whole excuse up.
We could make upp all sorts of stories. But no matter the story, she allowed this. Her choice.


----------



## LongWalk

> *Did I miss where they 'made out'*? I read they drove to his house and the timing was NOT suspicious to the OP for the distances involved. Now if you want to believe the conspiracy theories that have them stopping at the nearest overpass to have sex,that's okay but it's facts not in evidence.
> 
> I read when he tried to touch her cooter, she stopped him.
> And yes, is this the FIFTH time I've said EA? Why...yes it is..


Made out? Perhaps that was an assumption on my part. If a man and stood by a car and he caressed her thigh for two or three minutes, you would expect them to be kissing. I could be wrong on this point.

Although there are exceptions, women generally like to kissed when men touch their breast or thighs. If a man touches a woman like that without kissing, it could even be more sexually charged with the dirty sex feel.

The fact that she denied him access to her genitals was probably because she deemed it too risky or she had cut off sex to make their separation easier. Sometimes in a parting situation, the woman, even if she wants sex, will want to concentrate of the sadness instead of horniness.

That is, "usually I love it when you put your hand there, but right now I am so sad at the loss of you that I cannot think about sex." 

If there is an unsuccessful confrontation, we may never gain clarification.


----------



## JCD

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes, many women have weak boundaries. But you are assuming she allowed it for this reason which is not in evidence. You have made this whole excuse up.
> We could make upp all sorts of stories. But no matter the story, she allowed this. Her choice.





LongWalk said:


> Made out? Perhaps that was an assumption on my part. If a man and stood by a car and he caressed her thigh for two or three minutes, you would expect them to be kissing. I could be wrong on this point.
> 
> Although there are exceptions, women generally like to kissed when men touch their breast or thighs. If a man touches a woman like that without kissing, it could even be more sexually charged with the dirty sex feel.
> 
> The fact that she denied him access to her genitals was probably because she deemed it too risky or she had cut off sex to make their separation easier. Sometimes in a parting situation, the woman, even if she wants sex, will want to concentrate of the sadness instead of horniness.
> 
> That is, "usually I love it when you put your hand there, but right now I am so sad at the loss of you that I cannot think about sex."
> 
> If there is an unsuccessful confrontation, we may never gain clarification.


Yes, I 'made up' this excuse...because I've actually put a woman in this situation once...and I've known others put in this situation who just wanted these choices to go away. Or they were stuck being indecisive about how to react. Your point of accepting drunken louts using drinking as license is well made. That isn't what I am talking about though and you know it. I am speaking of someone doing something stupid and regretting it...while drunk.

Now, as I am 'making stuff up' and getting called on it, are you going to take to task those 'making up' make out sessions or quick carnal romps made out of whole cloth? Fair is fair. If this 'friend' saw necking, he would have mentioned necking. And if I was saying good bye to a lover, I would neck.

Oh...and when I have to say goodbye to an intimate beloved, I want MORE of her, not less. Enjoying those last few precious moments together. When I say goodbyes, I PUSH boundaries, I don't suddenly turn cold.

The only valid excuse I see for PA reticence is the fear of getting caught. But if that was so big, she wouldn't let him touch her in the first place.

This is easily as credible as any of the twisted rationales for her slightly exculpatory actions which want to paint her worse on no evidence.

I guess my point is that this guy WAS pushing boundaries...maybe even pretending to be drunk (he drove, right?) to cop a quick feel.

So that tends to diminish the idea of a PA, not an EA.


----------



## LongWalk

The source had the scene burned in his mind but only spoke long after the fact. He may have had his eyes on the hand the whole time and not looked at them kissing at all.

Yes, lovers parting will often have sex every possible last time, but sometimes there are circumstances, such as he accepted the transfer and she may have urged him to stay, thus creating a rift between them.

It may be an EA from start to finish. One argument in favor of that is her rather rash admissions. She might only feel that the lack of a PA means that she has not betrayed OP. This is possible.

However, smart money says that many of those working until 8:00 evenings involved sexual intercourse. How could a man who urged the women who worked for him to dress well keep his hands off the gal who was so infatuated with him.

This job was something she did to change her life. And the affair must have felt entirely natural in the context. OP describes this quite objectively.

The real question is can he uncover a resumption of the affair in the right way if it happens, so that he gains some respect. Very tricky. But the OP is thinking hard. Probably has a VAR ready for his wife's car.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

bfree said:


> Did my wife and I suffer financially from our decision? Yes. But we managed. If the choice is a happy family vs. being able to afford the GI Joe with the Kung Fu grip I'll take the happy family every time.


Awww, man! I love the GI Joe with the Kung Fu grip!!


----------



## MattMatt

It might be that she realised at the grab that bossman wanted more from her than she had realised.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> And I applaud you for that. But it is a cruddy choice to have to make. You know what else is a cruddy choice? Having a drooling drunk touch your leg. She weighed her costs differently.
> 
> I've known many upstanding women who were GENTLY able to dissuade a drunken idiot to leave off. But the touch still happens and maybe for more than the 5 pico seconds that a 'faithful' wife would allow.


You're right it is a cruddy choice but life is full of cruddy choices is it not? Its not the touch of the leg that is at issue. Its how she reacts that determines everything. If she allows it is she not giving tacit approval? And in my view a "faithful" wife would not allow it at all. How would your wife react if you tried to "gently" remove a woman's hand from your crotch?

Strong boundaries = strong marriage.

Weak boundaries = trouble.


----------



## Caribbean Man

bfree said:


> You're right it is a cruddy choice but life is full of cruddy choices is it not? Its not the touch of the leg that is at issue. Its how she reacts that determines everything. If she allows it is she not giving tacit approval? And in my view a "faithful" wife would not allow it at all. How would your wife react if you tried to "gently" remove a woman's hand from your crotch?
> 
> Strong boundaries = strong marriage.
> 
> Weak boundaries = trouble.


:iagree:

This entire scenario is worrisome and wrong on so many levels.
What some are not recognizing id that the boss did not just
" put his hand on her thighs and feel her up.."
She gave him the green light by way of her lax boundaries with him.
The texting, the dressing up, the working late with him , craving his validation of her sexuality etc.


----------



## snap

If she allows another man to caress her thigh for *minutes*, this can only mean they are already intimate enough for private touching. Any other interpretation is just defending indefensible.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This entire scenario is worrisome and wrong on so many levels.
> What some are not recognizing id that the boss did not just
> " put his hand on her thighs and feel her up.."
> She gave him the green light by way of her lax boundaries with him.
> The texting, the dressing up, the working late with him , craving his validation of her sexuality etc.


Not to mention the complete shut-down of sex and intimacy for over 4 years, which according to the OP became more so over time, particularly when she started paying most of her attention to her boss.


----------



## LongWalk

snap said:


> If she allows another man to caress her thigh for *minutes*, this can only mean they are already intimate enough for private touching. Any other interpretation is just defending indefensible.


:iagree:
This is of course the most rational explanation and has been the entire time. John's first post is still a striking read.


----------



## NextTimeAround

IF the wife had really been so concerned about her gossipy co-workers, she would not have gone out into the parking lot with her boss, to, well, give her co-workers something more to talk about.


----------



## JCD

Long Walk I've said my piece. You are still making things up. Now you have this guy forgetting hot and steamy kisses. How likely is that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

This talking about what happened on the parking spot has grown way out of proportion. It means almost nothing on itself, and the discussion goes on endlessly.

Read please the first post again. This hand is just part of the whole thing, and then it means something in addition to the clear EA, together with the overtime and sexy clothing it means: PA.


----------



## LongWalk

Agree 100% with SLL. First post explains nearly everything. OP is quite objective.

JCD, think of film. There is a whole scene to take in. What someone comes away with is edited in real time. The hand creeping upwards was The focus of The witness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

I wonder if the OP's wife is curious about him going to the house next door (to post) as he is doing it regularly and there for a while ??


----------



## Carlchurchill

Why does your friend who saw them in the parking lot not like your wife?

Also, I might be wrong here, but there is no way on earth my wife will ever have a male as a best friend!!! 

You have put up with far too much already; the phone calls, the late nights, the friendship, the lack of sex...do you seriously undervalue yourself and perhaps feels that you do not deserve your wife? It comes across this way!!!


----------



## JCD

Carlchurchill said:


> Why does your friend who saw them in the parking lot not like your wife?
> 
> Also, I might be wrong here, but there is no way on earth my wife will ever have a male as a best friend!!!
> 
> You have put up with far too much already; the phone calls, the late nights, the friendship, the lack of sex...do you seriously undervalue yourself and perhaps feels that you do not deserve your wife? It comes across this way!!!


I actually agree with all of this. He is...not petrified of his wife, but intimdated by her or very afraid of losing her.

So he does little to nothing without absolute proof.

Entropy, LongWalk, CM, snap...he hasn't found ANY. All he has is something from an eye witness *3 years ago!* which he never bothered to share until recently.

Some friend. Wonder if he has an ax to grind. 

BUT...as said, what is it, ten times now? She is at least subconsciously adhering to this guy WAY too much.

So..continue to do nothing. Wait until they make the beast with two backs. I don't think she's gotten there yet based on the facts.

How strange is it that the business culture changes in a company (added to the little friendly frission between boss and wife) causing her to change her mode of dress? Totally plausible...but that means BELIEVING the wife and we can't have that.

Here is a fine little paradox. If he does nothing NOW to defend his marriage, you know...confront without proof...she is likely to fall MUCH deeper with this guy.

But if she actually DOES the deed, the same guys who tell him not to confront without proof will also tell him he needs to throw her away because NOW she's a cheater.

Who will square the circle?


----------



## LongWalk

In someway even without any PA the situation is unbearable because she so admires this guy. She cried over the loss of him. He on the other hand may not want her for anything but work and adulation. Maybe he does not see her as real hot. That will crush her. OP needs to kill a lion or get in a bar fight, anything to change his image. His wife could fall in love with him again but just being plan B- will not do. OP is smart enough to understand. Now it is a question of will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ironman

LongWalk said:


> In someway even without any PA the situation is unbearable because she so admires this guy. She cried over the loss of him. He on the other hand may not want her for anything but work and adulation. Maybe he does not see her as real hot. That will crush her. *OP needs to kill a lion* or get in a bar fight, anything to change his image. His wife could fall in love with him again but just being plan B- will not do. OP is smart enough to understand. Now it is a question of will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_













Fixed that for ya


----------



## crossbar

LongWalk said:


> In someway even without any PA the situation is unbearable because she so admires this guy. *She cried over the loss of him. *He on the other hand may not want her for anything but work and adulation. Maybe he does not see her as real hot. That will crush her. OP needs to kill a lion or get in a bar fight, anything to change his image. His wife could fall in love with him again but just being plan B- will not do. OP is smart enough to understand. Now it is a question of will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Shoot, my boss quit a few months back and moved on to other things. She was an absolute blast and a great lady to work for. She became a really good friend to me but, I didn't cry or get emotional when she left!!


----------



## LongWalk

Right on Iroman. Maybe OP should go and buy a pistol and take up shooting as a recreationalal sport. If EA/PA WW tells boss My husband has gone crazy and become a Tea Party NRA type, OM may ask when The change took place. Not long before his return. That'll get him thinking. Note: not recommending gun violence
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## azteca1986

JCD said:


> Here is a fine little paradox. If he does nothing NOW to defend his marriage, you know...confront without proof...she is likely to fall MUCH deeper with this guy.
> 
> But if she actually DOES the deed, the same guys who tell him not to confront without proof will also tell him he needs to throw her away because NOW she's a cheater.


Maybe now's the time to make sure that the OP & his wife discuss boundaries and consequences. Sort of throw a light on the potential affair before it even has a chance on getting off the ground again. 

He can't just sit passively by. She has to be made aware that he is bothered about the relationship between her and her ex-boss.


----------



## russ101

Just to clarify a few items:

I already know my wife is in an EA with her boss, and has been for at least 4 years. I have stated this to my wife (although I didn't use the term EA since I never heard of it until recently). I told her I believe she has feelings for him and that she is just too close for a boss relatyionship. We have had arguements over the last few years over this. I for whatever reason have chosen not to leave the marriage over this. I may be wrong, but I really have my reasons, at least while I have children in our house. It was easier to deal with knowing he was a state away and they only talked a few times per week. I monitored several conversations with a VAR and never got anything that would indicate they were anything more than close friends. Her actions tell me she cares more for him than me though and I have expressed this with her. 

I have tried to get her into counseling but she doen't feel we have a problem. She sticks to the story that her loss of sex drive is because of hormones, and she still will have sex with me if I ask her enough times. But she feels that once a month is plenty. Another point that I have argued with her for a long time to no avail and again, have chosen to live with for the time being. I have just chose to stop asking her for it, because it is very obvious her heart is not into it, and it really isn't satisfying anymore. It is hard to fake desire.

What I am willing to leave her over is a PA. and with the new revelation of my friend (who by the way never mentioned that they ever kissed, and could not hear what they were talking about) about the caressing of the leg at her knee. I want to dig and find out if there is a PA or was one. I know many of you are convinced that there at least was one, and you may very well be right, but I want to be sure before I threaten divorce. I am going to try and get her to stick to some boundries when he gets back (like the dressing up to go to work, working late etc, neither should happen anymore since she isn't going to be working for him. However, I can't tell you what I'm going to do if she starts this all over again. I need advice to be able to catch her in some sort of PA evidence of a past one. this is what help I need, but I do really appreciate all the responses. I will up date you when I can. By the way, I tried to do a VAR last night, but it didn't take for some reason.


----------



## Thound

russ101 said:


> Just to clarify a few items:
> 
> I already know my wife is in an EA with her boss, and has been for at least 4 years. I have stated this to my wife (although I didn't use the term EA since I never heard of it until recently). I told her I believe she has feelings for him and that she is just too close for a boss relatyionship. We have had arguements over the last few years over this. I for whatever reason have chosen not to leave the marriage over this. I may be wrong, but I really have my reasons, at least while I have children in our house. It was easier to deal with knowing he was a state away and they only talked a few times per week. I monitored several conversations with a VAR and never got anything that would indicate they were anything more than close friends. Her actions tell me she cares more for him than me though and I have expressed this with her.
> 
> I have tried to get her into counseling but she doen't feel we have a problem. She sticks to the story that her loss of sex drive is because of hormones, and she still will have sex with me if I ask her enough times. But she feels that once a month is plenty. Another point that I have argued with her for a long time to no avail and again, have chosen to live with for the time being. I have just chose to stop asking her for it, because it is very obvious her heart is not into it, and it really isn't satisfying anymore. It is hard to fake desire.
> 
> What I am willing to leave her over is a PA. and with the new revelation of my friend (who by the way never mentioned that they ever kissed, and could not hear what they were talking about) about the caressing of the leg at her knee. I want to dig and find out if there is a PA or was one. I know many of you are convinced that there at least was one, and you may very well be right, but I want to be sure before I threaten divorce. I am going to try and get her to stick to some boundries when he gets back (like the dressing up to go to work, working late etc, neither should happen anymore since she isn't going to be working for him. However, I can't tell you what I'm going to do if she starts this all over again. I need advice to be able to catch her in some sort of PA evidence of a past one. this is what help I need, but I do really appreciate all the responses. I will up date you when I can. By the way, I tried to do a VAR last night, but it didn't take for some reason.


Only you know whats right for you. I think I probably would do the same. Hang in there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Iver

There are threads on TAM devoted to helping you find evidence - the first item is always do a VAR (preferably a Sony over an RCA) in her car - and make sure you velcro it securely under the seat. (and where ever else she yaks on the phone)

Since most people text/sext these days getting her phone password & learning about retrieving deleted texts is often necessary. If it's a work phone it's going to be tougher.

Often apps are used that hide text messages - check the phone for apps that seem unusual...

Lasty, have you been to MC yet? This might be a good time to start - it can't hurt and it may help your wife establish more appropriate boundaries moving forward - that is if she wants to.

Be prepared for a repeat of the last experience you went thru when the bossman was in town. You do need to figure out now how you will handle it if that happens.

Good Luck.


----------



## azteca1986

russ101 said:


> I am going to try and get her to stick to some boundries when he gets back (like the dressing up to go to work, working late etc, neither should happen anymore since she isn't going to be working for him.


Understand that you can't get her to stick to boundaries. Only she can do that. All you can do is make sure that she is aware of them. You explicitly state what is and what isn't acceptable. And don't forget this is mutual. You both live by the same rules. 

I think you're well within your rights to pre-empt the kind of changes in her behaviour that she exhibited before and don't wish to see again. Try not to make 'demands'. Reasonable requests should be met with reasonable responses.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

"*I monitored several conversations with a VAR and never got anything that would indicate they were anything more than close friends*."

"John",

All though this is a good sign, you'll obviously have to continue to monitor her when the OM is back where she works.

After he is back for a few weeks, you will have a much better idea if the relationship had ever, or is about to, go PA.

I'm sorry if many of us were hoping on the "she had a PA" band wagon, but from what you'd told us, it did and still seems very likely.

Just continue monitoring. Have you given any thought to what you are going to do if your wife tells you that she be going to a work related function, with out you?

This is where I would be the most worried about something happening. OM and your wife, at an after hours work gathering with dinking and a chance to be alone...

Does the freind that told you about the leg caress still work there?


----------



## BobSimmons

What makes a man feel emboldened enough to put a hand on a woman's thigh? 

I mean think about it? For those who still remember being single or are single (men that is) the connection has to be pretty spot on to even attempt something like that in private, let alone in public. How familiar do you have to be with someone to do that? Heck even some married guys wouldn't attempt that with their wives.

So she's in an EA with this guy..the sex goes down to nearly nil, once a month if you beg..and that's not because she wants to be with you, rather you just get your monthly rocks off..she figures that's plenty enough.

You're relegated to having to ask for your wife to desire you when she's off following her boss all over the place allowing him and put his hands on her thigh..I bet even you're not allowed to put your hand on her thigh..at least not in that erotic "I want you and she responds in kind" kind of way?

If it smells like fish then it sure aint a buffalo. She probably knows you are suspicious and will be extra cautious with her activities. Either they have had sex or she's elevated this man above you in sexual status relegating you to the proverbial bench. Either way not good for you. Good luck with your search. God bless.


----------



## turnera

russ101 said:


> I have tried to get her into counseling but she doen't feel we have a problem. She sticks to the story that her loss of sex drive is because of hormones, and she still will have sex with me if I ask her enough times. But she feels that once a month is plenty. Another point that I have argued with her for a long time to no avail and again, have chosen to live with for the time being. I have just chose to stop asking her for it, because it is very obvious her heart is not into it, and it really isn't satisfying anymore. It is hard to fake desire.


Of course she doesn't have a problem. You let her cheat on you and she still gets the perks of being married. She HAS no problem!


----------



## turnera

russ101 said:


> I need advice to be able to catch her in some sort of PA evidence of a past one. this is what help I need, but I do really appreciate all the responses. I will up date you when I can. By the way, I tried to do a VAR last night, but it didn't take for some reason.


 We already told you what to do: hire a PI.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

turnera said:


> We already told you what to do: hire a PI.


:iagree:

She's managed to keep this well hidden. You need some professional snooping.

John, you are making two big mistakes. The first is to downplay the seriousness of an EA. Yes, a PA means that another man is sticking his wiener inside your wife, but an EA means that she is satisfying her emotional needs with him and not with you, which is just as important if not more. She's replaced you with him in her life.

The second is to realize that her excuses and refusals to go to counseling indicate that she doesn't have a problem! This is just the way she wants it. You Mr. Beta and the B- plan keep the family situation stable while her knight in shining armor fulfills her desires. She doesn't WANT to change anything, unless of course she one day decides she's so in love with Mr. Wonderful she gives you the ILYBINILWY speech and files for divorce.

These are dealbreakers aren't they? Let me ask you: Are you happy in your marriage? Are you ok with the way your wife treats you? Do you feel like you've been shelved? There are lots of women out there who would divorce their husbands over this. Emotional neglect by a spouse is a horrible feeling. So why are you being a doormat?


Threatening divorce is not what this is about. It's about whether you have a marriage at all.


----------



## tom67

PreRaphaelite said:


> :iagree:
> 
> She's managed to keep this well hidden. You need some professional snooping.
> 
> John, you are making two big mistakes. The first is to downplay the seriousness of an EA. Yes, a PA means that another man is sticking his wiener inside your wife, but an EA means that she is satisfying her emotional needs with him and not with you, which is just as important if not more. She's replaced you with him in her life.
> 
> The second is to realize that her excuses and refusals to go to counseling indicate that she doesn't have a problem! This is just the way she wants it. You Mr. Beta and the B- plan keep the family situation stable while her knight in shining armor fulfills her desires. She doesn't WANT to change anything, unless of course she one day decides she's so in love with Mr. Wonderful she gives you the ILYBINILWY speech and files for divorce.
> 
> These are dealbreakers aren't they? Let me ask you: Are you happy in your marriage? Are you ok with the way your wife treats you? Do you feel like you've been shelved? There are lots of women out there who would divorce their husbands over this. Emotional neglect by a spouse is a horrible feeling. So why are you being a doormat?
> 
> 
> Threatening divorce is not what this is about. It's about whether you have a marriage at all.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## EleGirl

russ101 said:


> By the way, I tried to do a VAR last night, but it didn't take for some reason.


Where was the VAR that you used last night? 

If you put it in her car, are you using velcro to secure it?


----------



## tom67

JustPuzzled said:


> "But she feels that once a month is plenty."
> 
> Really? Nonsense. I know you have feelings for her, and I don't want to offend, but she deserves a big wake up call.
> 
> It sounds like she tolerates you.
> 
> This stinks.
> 
> Just an observation, not a condemnation of you.


Yep that's it in a nut shell.


----------



## Entropy3000

Yet another situation that sets a boundary of PIV sex. Rather than head it off before it happens and prevent it they watch it happen. EAs have momentum. You do not stop a roaring train when it is at the intersection. You have to slow it down miles before to have a chance. You prevent the PA by stopping the EA when it is early. But I also think this is about conflict avoidance. One lets the crossed boundary proceed to the next and to the next while drawing an ever weaker boundary. Some guys are ok with sharing their wives and think that will help them keep their children. However this just lessons any possible respect the woman could have for a man. In this case he may come back and she may move out to be with him. The kids get to be with Boss Bob. What a great guy. He makes mommy happy and he takes no crap from anyone.

So what is my point. If you love your kids, do not hide behind them, fight for them.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

russ101 said:


> Just to clarify a few items:
> 
> I already know my wife is in an EA with her boss, and has been for at least 4 years. I have stated this to my wife (although I didn't use the term EA since I never heard of it until recently). I told her I believe she has feelings for him and that she is just too close for a boss relatyionship. We have had arguements over the last few years over this. I for whatever reason have chosen not to leave the marriage over this. I may be wrong, but I really have my reasons, at least while I have children in our house. It was easier to deal with knowing he was a state away and they only talked a few times per week. I monitored several conversations with a VAR and never got anything that would indicate they were anything more than close friends. Her actions tell me she cares more for him than me though and I have expressed this with her.
> 
> I have tried to get her into counseling but she doen't feel we have a problem. She sticks to the story that her loss of sex drive is because of hormones, and she still will have sex with me if I ask her enough times. But she feels that once a month is plenty. Another point that I have argued with her for a long time to no avail and again, have chosen to live with for the time being. I have just chose to stop asking her for it, because it is very obvious her heart is not into it, and it really isn't satisfying anymore. It is hard to fake desire.
> 
> What I am willing to leave her over is a PA. and with the new revelation of my friend (who by the way never mentioned that they ever kissed, and could not hear what they were talking about) about the caressing of the leg at her knee. I want to dig and find out if there is a PA or was one. I know many of you are convinced that there at least was one, and you may very well be right, but I want to be sure before I threaten divorce. I am going to try and get her to stick to some boundries when he gets back (like the dressing up to go to work, working late etc, neither should happen anymore since she isn't going to be working for him. However, I can't tell you what I'm going to do if she starts this all over again. I need advice to be able to catch her in some sort of PA evidence of a past one. this is what help I need, but I do really appreciate all the responses. I will up date you when I can. By the way, I tried to do a VAR last night, but it didn't take for some reason.


You are getting on the right track here!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> I have tried to get her into counseling but she doen't feel we have a problem. She sticks to the story that her loss of sex drive is because of hormones, and she still will have sex with me if I ask her enough times. But she feels that once a month is plenty. Another point that I have argued with her for a long time to no avail and again, have chosen to live with for the time being. I have just chose to stop asking her for it, because it is very obvious her heart is not into it, and it really isn't satisfying anymore. It is hard to fake desire.


So, you are settling and your wife is not. Do you see how ridiculous this is when squashed to a simple point? No, this isn't compromise, it is dominance. Your wife says NO to sex, No it isn't a PA, NO to counseling and then you choose "not to ask for more sex" "not to ask for counseling" and to stay unhappy.
Sorry, that isn't a choice.


----------



## jnj express

This has gotten way beyond an EA

This is a PA----she allowed him to feel her up on the leg----How many men are gonna fondle a womans leg, and how many women are gonna allow it---unless both are familiar with each other, and enjoy the fondling---also this was out in the open---it may have been a remote parking area, but it was seen by one person---so who knows who else saw the fondling---but the bigger point here, is that the wife---CHOSE TO GO HOME BY FOLLOWING HER LOVER HOME---he was drunk ---SO WHAT----if she was that worried about him---she tells the host of the party to keep an eye on him, or to call a cab----HE IS NOT HER RESPONSIBILITY----she chose her lover over her own kids and husband who were at the party with her----how is that any different than her going in a room, and lip locking her lover----what she did was to openly choose against her H, in favor of her lover--she had a choice and she made it---she chose agst her own family--WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED, in the way of evidence??????


----------



## PreRaphaelite

OP: You might feel that we're being pretty harsh on you for not "manning up," and I admit, I am looking at your marriage from the outside, based completely on what you have told us. I don't know how you and your wife interact with each other personally. I'm not privy to that information.

But please understand, it's your own perspective and your own self-esteem that are as much a problem here as anything else. Your wife doesn't love you anymore and hasn't loved you for years. That's the only conclusion I can come to from what you've written. And she has found a way to satisfy her emotional desires (and her sexual ones quite possibly) at your expense.

Meanwhile, you are left in an unhappy and unfulfilling marriage that you are forced to swallow, and you've acquiesced. Your self of self-worth seems almost non-existent, or else you wouldn't put up with her ****.

Don't you deserve some happiness? Don't you deserve some fulfillment in your life? That's really what it is. 

I understand your concerns about the children, but children don't benefit from an unhappy marriage, and besides, children do NOT come first unconditionally. You can be a very good father to them without having to hang on to your loveless marriage. 

Even if it's "just" an EA, the fact of the matter is that you are getting no fulfillment whatsoever from your current marriage, and if you keep it up, you'll have denied yourself the chance to find a woman who really loves you and wants to share everything with you.

Have you given up on that?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



turnera said:


> We already told you what to do: hire a PI.


Actually hiring a private investigator is probably the best move. Not only will they get the evidence you need to avoid her gaslighting but they usually have it within a week or two so you can hopefully prevent a full fledged affair from regrowing.


----------



## Hicks

You are making such huge and serious mistakes, that even if she is not physical with him now, she will be.

It's as if you are telling her to please have sex with him.


----------



## turnera

bfree said:


> Actually hiring a private investigator is probably the best move. Not only will they get the evidence you need to avoid her gaslighting but they usually have it within a week or two so you can hopefully prevent a full fledged affair from regrowing.


 Exactly.

What is your marriage worth? A couple thousand dollars to hire a PI and get immediate proof she can't deny so that you have the control in the situation - stop or leave - or try to catch her on emails or VAR for the next few weeks or months? Or worse, wait til he moves back and die a little inside each day as you watch her dress up to meet him again?


----------



## warlock07

What about cheaters that hook up every few weeks ?


----------



## weightlifter

OP is she communicating with him now?

Anyway. Sony ICDPX312 VAR the best and no I dont have stock in Sony.

GET ON IT!

Disagree with others above as you have already confronted about the EA... That being said...

I agree whole heartedly with one thing. One of the items in the job description of wife is keeping your husbands balls empty. You seem to tolerate things that should not be tolerated. You are acting as a doormat. Please stop it. 

Yea I know, head off this upcoming PA first. VAR NOW! SONY MODEL ABOVE. 1 in car, 1 in whatever room she texts and talks to him in.

Then again, perhaps there is a third option. Open marriage. you pretend to be married for the kids. You go to AM cheatersite find a mistress for sex and love. She has already done the love part and probably the sex part. The one sided-ness needs to end...

Is the above paragraph enough of a wake up call about the other issues like getting laid 12 times a year? Being ignored?


----------



## sandc

Cuckoldry... it's never pretty.


----------



## Thor

Until the boss is back in the same town it makes no sense to pay a PI. Perhaps it makes sense to get a PI ready but not yet deployed.

However I am in favor of continuing the VAR and keylogger (is there a keylogger in place yet?) to monitor their communications before he returns. This should provide some advance notice of intentions to pick up the affair if one was going on.

OP, I want to ask why is it the PIV (or oral) becomes the deal breaker. You can have a pretty good marriage with a wife who is cheating without your knowledge. We hear that all the time on this forum. The sex picks up. She seems attentive at home. What brings people here is the surprise discovery of an email or photos which clue them in to their spouse's affair.

And, you can have a totally horrible marriage when there is no sexual affair going on.

Was your wife a virgin when you married her? If not, she has had sex with other men besides you. If she had sex with her boss it is just another one. The sex itself is irrelevant. What makes it ok to be married to her when she had sex with other men before you met her, but _un_acceptable for her to have sex with another man after you married her?

It is the betrayal, the lies, the diversion of her affection, and the potential damage to your future which are the unacceptable aspects of her having sex with her boss.

Aren't all of those unacceptable aspects already there with her EA?

I think you are far too caught up in trying to find out a *fact*. BTDT, I sell the t-shirts to this one!!! 

If the one *fact* is the important part you could have a good answer by tomorrow lunch. Have her do a polygraph to see if she has ever had any romantic or sexual contact with another man since your wedding (or engagement). Any kissing, fondling, touching of a sexual nature, oral sex, PIV.

But I think deep down you know it isn't the *fact* which is the issue. You are using the unknown as a diversion from setting a hard nuclear boundary over her contact with this other man.


----------



## turnera

Thor said:


> Until the boss is back in the same town it makes no sense to pay a PI. Perhaps it makes sense to get a PI ready but not yet deployed.


Well, that's what I meant, right?


----------



## ironman

Thor said:


> Until the boss is back in the same town it makes no sense to pay a PI. Perhaps it makes sense to get a PI ready but not yet deployed.
> 
> However I am in favor of continuing the VAR and keylogger (is there a keylogger in place yet?) to monitor their communications before he returns. This should provide some advance notice of intentions to pick up the affair if one was going on.
> 
> OP, I want to ask why is it the PIV (or oral) becomes the deal breaker. You can have a pretty good marriage with a wife who is cheating without your knowledge. We hear that all the time on this forum. The sex picks up. She seems attentive at home. What brings people here is the surprise discovery of an email or photos which clue them in to their spouse's affair.
> 
> And, you can have a totally horrible marriage when there is no sexual affair going on.
> 
> Was your wife a virgin when you married her? If not, she has had sex with other men besides you. If she had sex with her boss it is just another one. The sex itself is irrelevant. What makes it ok to be married to her when she had sex with other men before you met her, but _un_acceptable for her to have sex with another man after you married her?
> 
> It is the betrayal, the lies, the diversion of her affection, and the potential damage to your future which are the unacceptable aspects of her having sex with her boss.
> 
> Aren't all of those unacceptable aspects already there with her EA?
> 
> I think you are far too caught up in trying to find out a *fact*. BTDT, I sell the t-shirts to this one!!!
> 
> If the one *fact* is the important part you could have a good answer by tomorrow lunch. Have her do a polygraph to see if she has ever had any romantic or sexual contact with another man since your wedding (or engagement). Any kissing, fondling, touching of a sexual nature, oral sex, PIV.
> 
> But I think deep down you know it isn't the *fact* which is the issue. You are using the unknown as a diversion from setting a hard nuclear boundary over her contact with this other man.


This is very well stated. It should be the standard advice given to someone in denial.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

The one thing some of the pro-R crowd states, that I agree with 100%, is the phrase "Fight for your Marriage." By capitulating to her every demand, you are surrendering.


----------



## Suspecting

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The one thing some of the pro-R crowd states, that I agree with 100%, is the phrase "Fight for your Marriage." By capitulating to her every demand, you are surrendering.


But then again, what's the point fighting if the 'opponent' has already thrown in the towel.


----------



## LongWalk

PreRaphaelite said:


> OP: You might feel that we're being pretty harsh on you for not "manning up," and I admit, I am looking at your marriage from the outside, based completely on what you have told us. I don't know how you and your wife interact with each other personally. I'm not privy to that information.
> 
> But please understand, it's your own perspective and your own self-esteem that are as much a problem here as anything else. Your wife doesn't love you anymore and hasn't loved you for years. That's the only conclusion I can come to from what you've written. And she has found a way to satisfy her emotional desires (and her sexual ones quite possibly) at your expense.
> 
> Meanwhile, you are left in an unhappy and unfulfilling marriage that you are forced to swallow, and you've acquiesced. Your self of self-worth seems almost non-existent, or else you wouldn't put up with her ****.
> 
> Don't you deserve some happiness? Don't you deserve some fulfillment in your life? That's really what it is.
> 
> I understand your concerns about the children, but children don't benefit from an unhappy marriage, and besides, children do NOT come first unconditionally. You can be a very good father to them without having to hang on to your loveless marriage.
> 
> Even if it's "just" an EA, the fact of the matter is that you are getting no fulfillment whatsoever from your current marriage, and if you keep it up, you'll have denied yourself the chance to find a woman who really loves you and wants to share everything with you.
> 
> Have you given up on that?


:iagree: I liked this post. Very diplomatic.

John, you are actually getting considerable support. The reason you are getting it is not because posters feel sorry for you, but because they believe you are capable of action.

If you want to save your marriage and change it into something meaningful and fulfilling, if you want your wife to be in love with you, you must act. Moreover, your actions must be out of character. They should not be merely to impress her, for it may be too late for that.

You need to act to strengthen yourself so that you can deal with the worst scenario. I don't think that a PA between bossman and your wife is the worst thing that can happen. Far more unpleasant would be that he doesn't want her and she remains in your marriage, even more depressed and indifferent.

Are you lifting weights? Are you pursuing hobbies that interest you? Earlier I half jokingly suggested that you take pistol shooting as a hobby. Perhaps that was too off the wall. How about getting a better job.

At the very least you could get D papers ready, so that if you see her getting excited about his reappearance in the office, you can simply present her with the fact that you cannot accept her EA. You should not and do not need to argue about what she has or hasn't done. It is enough to say that her heart is not in your marriage and you have had enough.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Suspecting said:


> But then again, what's the point fighting if the 'opponent' has already thrown in the towel.


I see the "opponent" dominating the fight and the OP is in the corner, between rounds, capitulating to the demands and preparing to throw in the towel. I've seen 12th round KOs from the person getting beat down.


----------



## Suspecting

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I see the "opponent" dominating the fight and the OP is in the corner, between rounds, capitulating to the demands and preparing to throw in the towel. I've seen 12th round KOs from the person getting beat down.


But would you hit the opponent if they didn't fight back?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



Suspecting said:


> But would you hit the opponent if they didn't fight back?


Squash em like a bug. What is a doormat and what purpose does it serve?


----------



## Suspecting

bfree said:


> Squash em like a bug. What is a doormat and what purpose does it serve?


That's just an assault and not a proper match.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



Suspecting said:


> That's just an assault and not a proper match.


Sometimes you use things for their intended purpose. I don't kiss a punching bag nor do I hug a porcupine.


----------



## Entropy3000

Suspecting said:


> That's just an assault and not a proper match.


Yes. This is what this is. The OP is getting beaten continuously and we are wanting to see him standup and fight. This is very much an assault. There is much to play out as yet. She has not yet moved in with the OM and taken the kids away. She may just keep the OM as a lover and let the OP help take care of the children and finances.

If she tries to keep it somewhat hidden and he tries not to snoop too much he can live right along thinking they are just close friends. But I think that the relationship will become super obvious at her work if it is already not. Meaning it will become increasingly awkward for the OP to attend her work functions without them openly flaunting this. I just doubt it will reach this equilibrium without exploding.


----------



## russ101

I don't really look at your responses as getting beat up, I am using it to get all different kinds of perspectives, and then make my own decision. I am taking care of myself (joined a gym about 5 months ago, and not fat to begin with maybe 10 pounds, but want to build muscle, and at least average to good looking) and am starting to go places without telling her. The only way for me to move up my pay scale would be to be promoted within my building or another office, either way it would involve almost twice as many hours and right now with two kids ( 18 and 12 ) I just don't want to do that until they are out of school. this is one of the areas (the main one, according to my wife) that we argue/disagree about. 

My wife never had a super high sex drive to begin with, but it was far more fullfilling than it is now. We used to do it about 10 times per month, and the quality was much better. She was into it. Now when we do it she is just basically going through the motions and I don't want it like this. She insists to me that if I were to get a better job, then her desire for me would increase. I just don't buy it. I think she uses this as her excuse to not have sex much. I think her reasons for lack of desire are a combination of things:
1. her desire for the boss (weather she admits this or not)
2. her loss of some hormones due to her age (47)
3. her resentment of me "making her" work
4. her weight gain over the last 3 years (about 20 lbs)

I think that #3 is the biggest, but #1 is a close second.

I agree with all of you that I deserve better. I am a good husband and father. I just am complacent at with where I am now. 

A couple of updates (some good some bad)
My wife told me yesterday that she is tired of the way she looks, and she is joining a gym this weekend. I made a comment along the lines of "well I guess you gotta look good for Phil", she got very angry at it, still denying they are anything more than friends.
I have been reading her texts (she doesn't guard her phone, and won't delete texts for about a week) and read about some kind of a birthday gift she is getting him (in about 2 weeks). This was the worse text I have read. Most have just been about work (boring).
I am going to insist on MC if she wants to stay married, so we can talk about the issues between us. Don't know how or when I am going to bring this up, but plan on being firm, wish me luck on this one!
Her old boss is now confirmed to be coming back to her building, just on a different floor. He is not now however, her boss. I told her about my displeasure on this one.

Will continue to monitor her texts, and VAR her. Not sure how to install keylogger, and don't think she communicates with him at home on the pc anyway.

I am going to hire a PI when he gets back on a few choice nights (might even go out of town for a weekend, to see if she does anything). Can't afford to get one for more that a few nights but hopefully, I won't need to. I am trying to be strong on this, but I don't want to live with someone that really is just with me because I am the father of the kids. She on the other hand thinks that is ok, and says whenever we talk about divorce (have on a couple of occassions), that we need to suck it up for the kids sake, and learn to live with our life.

Sorry for the rambling, just typing as I am thinking.


----------



## crazyace

So she did not care how she looked until now .. or after her boss left. And now that he is coming back she is tired of her looks. Is this mere coincidence ?
have you spoken to her about this ?


----------



## jh52

John -- your wife is living a fantasy.

She joins a gym now -- not because of you but because of Phil -- you hit that one on the head.

Why is she buying Phil a birthday gift ?? what kind of gift ??

Your marriage as you know it was over a long time ago -- you will never be able to get that back.

At least her mind is all about Phil -- but even when you make love to her now -- she probably feels she is cheating on Phil.

It will be interesting to see how she starts dressing for work when Phil is back in the office.

Get your proof ---unfortunately I think this not going to end how you had hoped (IMO).

Hope for the best -- prepare for the worst.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Suspecting said:


> But would you hit the opponent if they didn't fight back?


You enter the ring, expect to get hit.


Suspecting said:


> That's just an assault and not a proper match.


Keep your guard up at all times.
Lets be real, the OP is getting destroyed, but he does throw out the occasional Jab


> "well I guess you gotta look good for Phil"


So, to continue with the bad analogies "he keeps poking the bear." What he should do is either leave it alone ([email protected]%) or grab weapons and fight back.



jh52 said:


> It will be interesting to see how she starts dressing for work when Phil is back in the office.


We will ignore the timing right? She hasn't gone to the gym, but three weeks before he is CONFIRMED to be back now she wants to lose weight. You said about 20 pounds, my buddy lost 15 in three weeks with moderate workout, adjusting what he ate and walking every night. So, yes, it can be done.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

" *Sorry for the rambling, just typing as I am thinking.* "

You're not rambling. It's information that could help us, help you.

I know it's tough when we start telling you things like they may have all ready had a PA, or it's heading for a PA. You'e being too beta and so on. When we tell you this, it's because many of us have been there. We know what it looks like and we just want you to realize that it can happen to anybody.

Whether you realize it, or not, you are better off right now than you where when you first posted here. And yes, when we think a BS, or potential BS is moving too slow, or in the wrong direction, many of use pull out thos "2x4s" and start swingin'.

Please don't take it too personal. We(most of us anyway ) mean well by it.

Hang in there, you'll get through this.


----------



## treyvion

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You enter the ring, expect to get hit. Keep your guard up at all times.
> Lets be real, the OP is getting destroyed, but he does throw out the occasional Jab
> 
> So, to continue with the bad analogies "he keeps poking the bear." What he should do is either leave it alone ([email protected]%) or grab weapons and fight back.
> 
> We will ignore the timing right? She hasn't gone to the gym, but three weeks before he is CONFIRMED to be back now she wants to lose weight. You said about 20 pounds, my buddy lost 15 in three weeks with moderate workout, adjusting what he ate and walking every night. So, yes, it can be done.


How much walking was your buddy doing? Was he going to walking and clean diet from being sendentary with a not good diet?

15 lbs in 3 weeks is hard to be 100% bodyfat. With an hour or so of walking, and cleaning up the diet, not walking 4 hrs or day or something like this, I'm estimating 2 lbs a week or so, and some water from becoming active. Prolly 7 lbs of water, 6 lbs of actual fat burned for 13 lbs, so that would be close to 15...

It takes a while to burn real fat, but it can be done, and once you start melting it off, just keep doing what you are doing, be in it for the long haul.


----------



## treyvion

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> " *Sorry for the rambling, just typing as I am thinking.* "
> 
> You're not rambling. It's information that could help us, help you.
> 
> I know it's tough when we start telling you things like they may have all ready had a PA, or it's heading for a PA. You'e being too beta and so on. When we tell you this, it's because many of us have been there. We know what it looks like and we just want you to realize that it can happen to anybody.
> 
> Whether you realize it, or not, you are better off right now than you where when you first posted here. And yes, when we think a BS, or potential BS is moving too slow, or in the wrong direction, many of use pull out thos "2x4s" and start swingin'.
> 
> Please don't take it too personal. We(most of us anyway ) mean well by it.
> 
> Hang in there, you'll get through this.


Thinking too much, being too reactive, not doing what you want to do.... Beta...


----------



## Entropy3000

russ101 said:


> I don't really look at your responses as getting beat up, I am using it to get all different kinds of perspectives, and then make my own decision. I am taking care of myself (joined a gym about 5 months ago, and not fat to begin with maybe 10 pounds, but want to build muscle, and at least average to good looking) and am starting to go places without telling her. The only way for me to move up my pay scale would be to be promoted within my building or another office, either way it would involve almost twice as many hours and right now with two kids ( 18 and 12 ) I just don't want to do that until they are out of school. this is one of the areas (the main one, according to my wife) that we argue/disagree about.
> 
> My wife never had a super high sex drive to begin with, but it was far more fullfilling than it is now. We used to do it about 10 times per month, and the quality was much better. She was into it. Now when we do it she is just basically going through the motions and I don't want it like this. She insists to me that if I were to get a better job, then her desire for me would increase. I just don't buy it. I think she uses this as her excuse to not have sex much. I think her reasons for lack of desire are a combination of things:
> 1. her desire for the boss (weather she admits this or not)
> 2. her loss of some hormones due to her age (47)
> 3. her resentment of me "making her" work
> 4. her weight gain over the last 3 years (about 20 lbs)
> 
> I think that #3 is the biggest, but #1 is a close second.
> 
> I agree with all of you that I deserve better. I am a good husband and father. I just am complacent at with where I am now.
> 
> A couple of updates (some good some bad)
> My wife told me yesterday that she is tired of the way she looks, and she is joining a gym this weekend. I made a comment along the lines of "well I guess you gotta look good for Phil", she got very angry at it, still denying they are anything more than friends.
> I have been reading her texts (she doesn't guard her phone, and won't delete texts for about a week) and read about some kind of a birthday gift she is getting him (in about 2 weeks). This was the worse text I have read. Most have just been about work (boring).
> I am going to insist on MC if she wants to stay married, so we can talk about the issues between us. Don't know how or when I am going to bring this up, but plan on being firm, wish me luck on this one!
> Her old boss is now confirmed to be coming back to her building, just on a different floor. He is not now however, her boss. I told her about my displeasure on this one.
> 
> Will continue to monitor her texts, and VAR her. Not sure how to install keylogger, and don't think she communicates with him at home on the pc anyway.
> 
> I am going to hire a PI when he gets back on a few choice nights (might even go out of town for a weekend, to see if she does anything). Can't afford to get one for more that a few nights but hopefully, I won't need to. I am trying to be strong on this, but I don't want to live with someone that really is just with me because I am the father of the kids. She on the other hand thinks that is ok, and says whenever we talk about divorce (have on a couple of occassions), that we need to suck it up for the kids sake, and learn to live with our life.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling, just typing as I am thinking.


Absolutely everything you have stated about your marriage going downhill can be explained by the EA. The "reasons" she gives are called rationalizations. EAs destroy marriages by unbonding from the primary relationship and then bonding with another. It is a shift that occurs. 

So all the MC and all the niceness is not going to do much but pass the time and spend money. You stilll refuse to understand that the EA is what killed your marriage. Having actual sex becomes a formality. And maybe this has already happened.

So insisting on MC is the wrong thing. You need to insist she go NC with this guy. You cannot work on your relationship until she goes NC with this guy and then goes through withdrawal. The thing is going through withdrawal before he comes back is possible. Waiting for him to get back puts the affair is orbit beyond reach.

Also realize that depending on your couselor you may find that they are not a friend of the marriage. The MC is not going to be the bad guy for you. I am thinking that separation will come up soon. This will allow your wife some additional freedom.

You know saying she is getting fit for her OM does nothing good. It is just you pouting and looking impotent. It is not going to guilt her into choosing you by making her feel bad. She sees someone who is unwilling to fight for her. Someone willing to allow another man to have his wife. 

18 and 12 .... So one is just about out of the house. Perhaps she has a five year plan for when the 12 year old gets close to 18. Some women will hang on until the kids leave. She is starting her exit plan now.

And indeed what is the birthday gift for him. We can only imagine.


----------



## turnera

Gee, how 'odd.' Honeybritches comes back to town so she has to get her body in shape.

You know, so she looks good NAKED.

*VOMIT*


----------



## treyvion

Entropy3000 said:


> Absolutely everything you have stated about your marriage going downhill can be explained by the EA. The "reasons" she gives are called rationalizations. EAs destroy marriages by unbonding from the primary relationship and then bonding with another. It is a shift that occurs.
> 
> So all the MC and all the niceness is not going to do much but pass the time and spend money. You stilll refuse to understand that the EA is what killed your marriage. Having actual sex becomes a formality. And maybe this has already happened.
> 
> So insisting on MC is the wrong thing. You need to insist she go NC with this guy. You cannot work on your relationship until she goes NC with this guy and then goes through withdrawal. The thing is going through withdrawal before he comes back is possible. Waiting for him to get back puts the affair is orbit beyond reach.
> 
> Also realize that depending on your couselor you may find that they are not a friend of the marriage. The MC is not going to be the bad guy for you. I am thinking that separation will come up soon. This will allow your wife some additional freedom.
> 
> You know saying she is getting fit for her OM does nothing good. It is just you pouting and looking impotent. It is not going to guilt her into choosing you by making her feel bad. She sees someone who is unwilling to fight for her. Someone willing to allow another man to have his wife.
> 
> 18 and 12 .... So one is just about out of the house. Perhaps she has a five year plan for when the 12 year old gets close to 18. Some women will hang on until the kids leave. She is starting her exit plan now.
> 
> And indeed what is the birthday gift for him. We can only imagine.


You nailed why resentment and lack of respect builds up for a LBS who hangs in there in the middle of an affair. The OM/OW is stealing your light, and everything else.

They are getting much more than you ever did, and you get to pay for it.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

treyvion said:


> Thinking too much, being too reactive, not doing what you want to do.... Beta...


Yes. I understand that. I'm just worried that this is going to turn into one of those threads where we push the BS too fare and they either never come back, or snap and confront too early.

It's obvious to me that his wife is, or has, checked out of the marriage. We know the OM will be back, personally, in the picture in a few weeks.

He has limited access to this site due to using a freind's PC. In the mean time the posts just keeps stacking up. He reads large doses in a small number of times. He's got the OM clock ticking on one side, many of us with pitchforks and torches on the other.

I just thought if someone reached to him with an open hand vs. a clenched fist he may have responded better.

Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## treyvion

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Yes. I understand that. I'm just worried that this is going to turn into one of those threads where we push the BS too fare and they either never come back, or snap and confront too early.
> 
> It's obvious to me that his wife is, or has, checked out of the marriage. We know the OM will be back, personally, in the picture in a few weeks.
> 
> He has limited access to this site due to using a freind's PC. In the mean time the posts just keeps stacking up. He reads large doses in a small number of times. He's got the OM clock ticking on one side, many of us with pitchforks and torches on the other.
> 
> I just thought if someone reached to him with an open hand vs. a clenched fist he may have responded better.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong.


Imagine if an OW/OM made a couple of comments on TAM. Admitting they get a big thrill off of having sex with someones wife or husband. That they know the betrayed spouse won't do anything, and they don't even think that highly of the WAS...


----------



## Acabado

Already anticipated the dressing up. Didn't imagine the gym.


----------



## Hicks

Her boss has the money and stature and drive that you lack, so she is horny for him and not for you.

And your plan to get your stature and manliness back is to LET HIM HAVE her heart and possibly her body.....

She literally thinks this to her self.


----------



## turnera

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? You need to do that ASAP - BEFORE Shakylegs gets back into town.

EVERYTHING you say is classic Nice Guy syndrome and IT IS NOT ATTRACTIVE.

There is NO WAY she will choose you over him as long as you continue with what you are doing. Proof or not.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

treyvion said:


> 13 lbs, so that would be close to 15...


We could argue all day, and derail the thread, but you helped make my point. She can have a noticeable weight drop by the time he reappears.


Acabado said:


> Already anticipated the dressing up. Didn't imagine the gym.


Have to fit the stuff that impressed him.


----------



## thatbpguy

russ101 said:


> I am going to insist on MC if she wants to stay married, so we can talk about the issues between us. Don't know how or when I am going to bring this up, but plan on being firm, wish me luck on this one!


I like this idea. For the both of you.



russ101 said:


> Will continue to monitor her texts, and VAR her. Not sure how to install keylogger, and don't think she communicates with him at home on the pc anyway.
> 
> I am going to hire a PI when he gets back on a few choice nights (might even go out of town for a weekend, to see if she does anything). Can't afford to get one for more that a few nights but hopefully, I won't need to.


One has to do what one has to do. Keep good track of your information you gather.



russ101 said:


> I am trying to be strong on this, but I don't want to live with someone that really is just with me because I am the father of the kids.


Yes, do stay strong.


----------



## treyvion

phillybeffandswiss said:


> We could argue all day, and derail the thread, but you helped make my point. She can have a noticeable weight drop by the time he reappears.
> 
> Have to fit the stuff that impressed him.


That's what I was saying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PreRaphaelite

So your wife's sex drive depends on the size of her partner's paycheck? 

Guess Phil is 10x as sexy as you then.

Your wife is a real piece of work. As others have said, you are very unattractive to your wife because you have accepted the situation passively. And now you're making whiny comments about her and Phil. She will regard you even more negatively.

If you refuse to set clear boundaries and tell her that she either works on this marriage 100% or its over, then she'll most likely finish what is already a reality by leaving you for Phil.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

It is simply unbelievable.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



PreRaphaelite said:


> So your wife's sex drive depends on the size of her partner's paycheck?
> 
> Guess Phil is 10x as sexy as you then.
> 
> Your wife is a real piece of work. As others have said, you are very unattractive to your wife because you have accepted the situation passively. And now you're making whiny comments about her and Phil. She will regard you even more negatively.
> 
> If you refuse to set clear boundaries and tell her that she either works on this marriage 100% or its over, then she'll most likely finish what is already a reality by leaving you for Phil.


If Phil was your wife's husband would he put up with the things you have? Would he weakly make passive aggressive remarks or would he blow this crap up? Then what you have to ask yourself is why are you putting up with it?


----------



## warlock07

russ, could it be they use other apps when they talk between them gets inappropriate. She probably know you check her messages, so makes sure they are normal in her phone ?


----------



## NextTimeAround

warlock07 said:


> russ, could it be they use other apps when they talk between them gets inappropriate. She probably know you check her messages, so makes sure they are normal in her phone ?


This is interesting. Can affair partners really be that into helping the cheating partner to cheat that they will go through those procedures?


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



NextTimeAround said:


> This is interesting. Can affair partners really be that into helping the cheating partner to cheat that they will go through those procedures?


Actually yes. It's standard operating procedure in many cases. You read it all the time here.


----------



## NextTimeAround

bfree said:


> Actually yes. It's standard operating procedure in many cases. You read it all the time here.


I would have thought some men would engage in an affair with a married woman if it were easy and convenient.

So guys like this Phil, is he getting off on the complexity of it.

Just wait until Russ's wife finds out that he has other women on the line to him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NextTimeAround said:


> This is interesting. Can affair partners really be that into helping the cheating partner to cheat that they will go through those procedures?


If I learned anything here, it is the lengths people go through to cheat.

Hidden phone text apps, conversations through phone games and a million other things. It is ridiculous.


----------



## thatbpguy

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If I learned anything here, it is the lengths people go through to cheat.


That’s why I never buy the excuses that betrayers come up with when asked how it happened. Ones like:

“I don’t know…”

“It just did…”

“I made a mistake…”

“I never saw it happening…”

“She/he meant nothing to me…”

Betrayals are pre meditated.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yep. I don't care what they say, you KNOW when you crossed a line. That flirt you return, the first time you hide a conversation or that lingering caress that isn't stopped. I do believe they don't know when it went completely off the rails, but they know the EXACT moment it became inappropriate.


----------



## KanDo

NextTimeAround said:


> This is interesting. Can affair partners really be that into helping the cheating partner to cheat that they will go through those procedures?


YOU ARE KIDDING, RIGHT:scratchhead:.THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME! My WW used words with friends, a crossword like game that has a texting app built in that allows you to quickly change from the game to the text screen and back. Problem is she thought I was an idiot and didn't notice the long stretches of typing that occurred when she was on the game.


----------



## russ101

Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).

I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


----------



## aug

Keep your radar up.

She checked out of the marriage a few years ago, took a hiatus, and is rechecking out now.

Get your finances and assets in order. Since she's making more money than you, "arrange" your finances in such a way that she ends up paying you spousal/child support.


----------



## badmemory

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


Excellent plan to force the issue - if you can reconcile the thought that this might bring them together; sort of artificially.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


Go for it. Her reaction will indeed tell you a lot. I assume you'll be taking the kids with you.


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## badmemory

Have you already told her about the trip? 

If you're going to the trouble of the PI, why not invent something that leaves no opportunity for her to go with you?


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## PreRaphaelite

Here's another thing: the fact that your wife knows that you are very uncomfortable about how close she is to her ex-boss and yet she wants to transfer back to his division is a major red flag.

It shows once again that she values her feelings towards him more than she considers your feelings in this matter.


----------



## LongWalk

The VAR seems to have served you well. A PI is no different in principle but costs more.
This last bit of info seems to leave no doubt where her heart lies. Just file for divorce
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PreRaphaelite

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).


Ding Ding Ding. Your alarm is going off.


----------



## weightlifter

Some "good" news. Looks like they have not re-hooked up yet.


----------



## jh52

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


Did the VAR pick up who called who ?? If she called him the affair (EA) in her mind is back on.

Also, to ask to work for him again means, dressing nicer, late evenings, etc -- once again more time to spend with him.

Who initiates the texting -- her or him ??

If she makes up an excuse not to go with her family on a holiday weekend to a water park -- for whatever reason -- tells you where the kids, you and the family stand in her heart.

PI is a good idea -- but even if you don't catch anything and she doesn't go with her family is not a good sign.

I would contact a lawyer next week -- just to talk about options, start getting your finances, kids, other family things in order behind the scene -- because if she doesn't go for whatever reason -- it tells you in your heart where the kids and you stand ----and both the kids and you deserve more -- don't you think.

Also, stop feeling guilty about monitoring her moves -- you are fighting to save your marriage and family and should be willing to take back control --- don't you think the kids and you deserve more if she has her boss as #1 in her heart ??

I would like to see you save your family and marriage -- but she appears to have checked out a few years ago -- and even though the boss left for a few years -- her heart has never returned to you -- NOT GOOD.


----------



## turnera

PreRaphaelite said:


> Here's another thing: the fact that your wife knows that you are very uncomfortable about how close she is to her ex-boss and yet she wants to transfer back to his division is a major red flag.
> 
> It shows once again that she values her feelings towards him more than she considers your feelings in this matter.


It also says she thinks you are a doormat and will never leave her, so she can now do anything she wants with him and you won't do a thing.


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## PreRaphaelite

turnera said:


> It also says she thinks you are a doormat and will never leave her, so she can now do anything she wants with him and you won't do a thing.


:iagree:

I agree with turnera very much on that.

She's tuned you out OP. A long time ago. She feels little or no reservation about doing whatever she likes with her 'best friend boss.'


----------



## thatbpguy

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


I understand you don’t like doing this. I really do. But it seems as if your wife is not being honest with you about many things. And if you believe she is having more than an EA with this guy, you simply need to snoop and find out for yourself. 

That said, I suspect you will find their ‘friendship’ is much deeper than she will admit to. I also predict when you confront her with the evidence she will pretty much shrug her shoulders and say, “ok, you busted me. Now what?” Meaning she chose him over you some time ago.

So why do I say this?

Be prepared for it. Be prepared to catch her in her lies and then not give a damn. Based on everything you have stated (which is a very small snapshot of your marriage), she knows it, you know it, the other guy knows it and nothing is going to change it.

My last prediction. After you bust her and tell the OM’s wife, within 90 days after the divorces they will get married. I really think they want to but haven’t the guts to tell you and the OM’s wife they are in love. But when their hand is forced into the light, they will do what they need to do.

Sorry to be Mr Gloom & Doom, but that is how I see it.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

thatbpguy said:


> I understand you don’t like doing this. I really do. But it seems as if your wife is not being honest with you about many things. And if you believe she is having more than an EA with this guy, you simply need to snoop and find out for yourself.
> 
> That said, I suspect you will find their ‘friendship’ is much deeper than she will admit to. I also predict when you confront her with the evidence she will pretty much shrug her shoulders and say, “ok, you busted me. Now what?” Meaning she chose him over you some time ago.
> 
> So why do I say this?
> 
> Be prepared for it. Be prepared to catch her in her lies and then not give a damn. Based on everything you have stated (which is a very small snapshot of your marriage), she knows it, you know it, the other guy knows it and nothing is going to change it.
> 
> My last prediction. After you bust her, tell the OM’s wife within 90 days after the divorces they will get married. I really think they want to but haven’t the guts to tell you and the OM’s wife they are in love. But when their hand is forced into the light, they will do what they need to do.
> 
> Sorry to be Mr Gloom & Doom, but that is how I see it.


I believe he's single, so it will be even easier for her to shrug and agree to a divorce.


----------



## tom67

PreRaphaelite said:


> I believe he's single, so it will be even easier for her to shrug and agree to a divorce.


Sigh- John you should consult with a lawyer next week like everyone has said she has checked out for quite awhile from what you have told us and doesn't care about your feelings.


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## thatbpguy

PreRaphaelite said:


> I believe he's single, so it will be even easier for her to shrug and agree to a divorce.


Oh?

Did I miss that part?


----------



## PreRaphaelite

thatbpguy said:


> Oh?
> 
> Did I miss that part?


"He is single and has never been married."

--from the initial post.


----------



## LongWalk

Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. 

Sounds bad to me.

How has your sex life been since his return has neared?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


I think you are blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. What you have described is an emotional affair as bad as any I have seen on the this website. 

Have you read NOT JUST FRIENDS by Shirley Glass? Have you studied up on EAs? Have you read MMSLP?

You are chasing your tail. Blindly oblivious doesn't even come close.


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## Chaparral

BTW, you said her sister was cheated on. Did her sister also cut her husband off sexually? Have you asked your wife that?

Do you coinsider it a coincidence that your sex life vanished about the same time she and her boss started working together?

We have seen that more often than not here. The wayward wife actually sees making love to her husband as cheating on the boyfriend.


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## Iver

You need to start preparing to be a single dad with children. 

You also need to decide how you are going to handle the likely scenario of 
1. Boss Returns
2. Wife loses weight, dresses nicely again
3. Wife is working late nights for that boss again.
4. Wife refuses to change anything about this situation.

Even if there never is evidence of a PA what will you do when faced with this?


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## Chaparral

There are links to the two most important books you need in my signature.

Until you can confirm no contact with the other man, your wife is in an emotional affair with an other man at minimum. If you want to keep her, there are some hard decisions to be made. While you are dragging your feet she is building up to reunion day. I am guessing she is already becoming giddy.

Realistically, with the length this has gone on, you rchances are already slim. You had better start chipping away at this affair quickly. One thing you absolutely need to do is start calling a spade a spade. When you talk about this with her you need to start talking about it as an affair and do not back down from that stance. I can't believe you can still wonder if they are just friends.

Have you found one example of a woman and a man communicating that much in normal life?

Here is a post you need to read by Marduk

*I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!*


----------



## LongWalk

John knows the score. The tragedy is that he is unable to act. There are suggestions but it feels like he is on a beach trying to stop the rising tide with a child's plastic bucket and spade. I suggested that John buy a pistol and take up target shooting, not so that he would shoot or threaten anybody, but simply to change his image. His wife knows he is a gentle kind guy she would not be afraid. But when she gossips about her life with her lover, she would bring it up. After all her boredom in their marriage is probably one of the topics that WW and OM share, a sort of running joke. OM would not take it as joke. But time is running out.

The only thing left at this point is to file for D ASAP. Dump first. There is at least hope that OM only wants sex and ego massage. This could throw cold water on A by forcing WW to face the fact that he is not so in love. However, her infatuation is so great that she may sadly accept the status of mistress,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nujabes

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


I'm going to be one of those other guys that agree with your plan. 

Nothing better to do than to bring the issue closer at hand, a very wise move there mate. Now I can't wait for the outcome and put that clutch to shame!... IF she is really cheating that is.


----------



## tom67

LongWalk said:


> John knows the score. The tragedy is that he is unable to act. There are suggestions but it feels like he is on a beach trying to stop the rising tide with a child's plastic bucket and spade. I suggested that John buy a pistol and take up target shooting, not so that he would shoot or threaten anybody, but simply to change his image. His wife knows he is a gentle kind guy she would not be afraid. But when she gossips about her life with her lover, she would bring it up. After all her boredom in their marriage is probably one of the topics that WW and OM share, a sort of running joke. OM would not take it as joke. But time is running out.
> 
> The only thing left at this point is to file for D ASAP. Dump first. There is at least hope that OM only wants sex and ego massage. This could throw cold water on A by forcing WW to face the fact that he is not so in love. However, her infatuation is so great that she may sadly accept the status of mistress,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He may just be looking for sex and not just her in that office.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russ101

One last note, and thanks again for all the replies (even the harsh ones). I caught her text today to him where she is helping him with the arrangements for his move back (as if she was his secretary). She also drove my daughter to her friends houise for a sleepover (a 10 min drive max) and was gone for almost 50 minutes. I just knew in my heart she was on the phone to him. When she got home I said what took you so long? did you stay there for a while? She just looked at me strange and said I wasn't gone that long. I called her on it and said this should not have taken youj more than 30 minutes. She just said why are you timing me? I said I wasn't it just seemed like this was a long time to be gone to just drop her off. She didn't have an answer for me (of course I already knew the answer) she wanted to talk to him in private. I feel like I should push this issue more since even if she admits she was talking to him (she wont lie about it if I ask her) I can come back with why won't you talk to him back at home in front of us?

I do have an initial appointment with an attorney on Tues. to discuss my options. This is going to be a bad month! By the way, it was her that initiated the phone calls on both occasions.


----------



## Thound

Don't push her if you want to gather intel.


----------



## jh52

Did you tell her about the getaway next weekend as a family to the water park?


----------



## jh52

russ101 said:


> One last note, and thanks again for all the replies (even the harsh ones). I caught her text today to him where she is helping him with the arrangements for his move back (as if she was his secretary). She also drove my daughter to her friends houise for a sleepover (a 10 min drive max) and was gone for almost 50 minutes. I just knew in my heart she was on the phone to him. When she got home I said what took you so long? did you stay there for a while? She just looked at me strange and said I wasn't gone that long. I called her on it and said this should not have taken youj more than 30 minutes. She just said why are you timing me? I said I wasn't it just seemed like this was a long time to be gone to just drop her off. She didn't have an answer for me (of course I already knew the answer) she wanted to talk to him in private. I feel like I should push this issue more since even if she admits she was talking to him (she wont lie about it if I ask her) I can come back with why won't you talk to him back at home in front of us?
> 
> I do have an initial appointment with an attorney on Tues. to discuss my options. This is going to be a bad month! By the way, it was her that initiated the phone calls on both occasions.


Sorry you are going through this - but you will be stronger and better no matter the outcome. Your wife is in denial of her husband, girls and her marriage and is in a fantasy land about her boss.

No one can predict the future - but one thing for certain is that you can take back and be in control of your life. 

Hope for the best - but prepare for the worst.


----------



## warlock07

VAR her car..


----------



## PreRaphaelite

russ101 said:


> One last note, and thanks again for all the replies (even the harsh ones). I caught her text today to him where she is helping him with the arrangements for his move back (as if she was his secretary). She also drove my daughter to her friends houise for a sleepover (a 10 min drive max) and was gone for almost 50 minutes. I just knew in my heart she was on the phone to him. When she got home I said what took you so long? did you stay there for a while? She just looked at me strange and said I wasn't gone that long. I called her on it and said this should not have taken youj more than 30 minutes. She just said why are you timing me? I said I wasn't it just seemed like this was a long time to be gone to just drop her off. She didn't have an answer for me (of course I already knew the answer) she wanted to talk to him in private. I feel like I should push this issue more since even if she admits she was talking to him (she wont lie about it if I ask her) I can come back with why won't you talk to him back at home in front of us?
> 
> I do have an initial appointment with an attorney on Tues. to discuss my options. This is going to be a bad month! By the way, it was her that initiated the phone calls on both occasions.


Sorry to hear all this (John? Russ? ) but I think you pretty much know the score now. The writing is on the wall. It's going to be hard but you'll get through it.

Seeing a lawyer is a good thing.

You have to now make up your mind if you want to wait and gather intel or confront her now. If it's the former you going to have to back off on the probing questions. If you want to confront now, come up with a clear plan. Don't whine to her, don't be sarcastic. Be very firm and very clear.

The way that you act from here on in will go a long way to determining the outcome, and at the very least, if you do right you'll be able to preserve your dignity.

If you do decide you want more intel, you'll have to go dark. But that means letting their EA/PA go on. 

Do you need the hard evidence? Is her neglect of your marriage over the years plus her unmistakable interest in everything he does enough to call her out?

Also, when you do confront her, you must be very clear: either she commits 100% to your marriage and ends her communication with this guy, or it is over.

I wish you all the luck in a very heartbreaking situation


----------



## LongWalk

russ101 said:


> One last note, and thanks again for all the replies (even the harsh ones). I caught her text today to him where she is helping him with the arrangements for his move back (as if she was his secretary). She also drove my daughter to her friends houise for a sleepover (a 10 min drive max) and was gone for almost 50 minutes. I just knew in my heart she was on the phone to him. When she got home I said what took you so long? did you stay there for a while? She just looked at me strange and said I wasn't gone that long. I called her on it and said this should not have taken youj more than 30 minutes. She just said why are you timing me? I said I wasn't it just seemed like this was a long time to be gone to just drop her off. She didn't have an answer for me (of course I already knew the answer) she wanted to talk to him in private. I feel like I should push this issue more since even if she admits she was talking to him (she wont lie about it if I ask her) I can come back with why won't you talk to him back at home in front of us?
> 
> I do have an initial appointment with an attorney on Tues. to discuss my options. This is going to be a bad month! By the way, it was her that initiated the phone calls on both occasions.


John, I think most of us following your thread have been pessimistic, but you seem to getting your shı† together at the last minute. This is a glimmer of hope for your marriage. And if it doesn't, you may recover and be stronger rather quickly, given that you have been struggling with this for some time already.

You need all the intelligence you can get, the emails and VAR. Hope you are saving the emails so that you have them for reference.

Presenting your wife with D papers asap is the strongest card you have at this point. Calm 180 reserve. If she asks you why you want to D, you should not engage her in discussion. Just reply that she ought to know herself and leave it at that. Perhaps if she is insistent, you can add that she has "disappointed" you. Tell her if D really bothers her, she can set up MC, but at this point you have nothing much to say to her.

If she is indifferent, then you are only getting to the end sooner rather than later. Better for you.

Should she, upon self examination, discover that she loves you, you may turn things around.

Her chase after OM is just a primate mating drama. She is raising her rump for a chimp she considers more alpha than you, your calm response may make her reconsider you as a mate.

One factor that may influence her is her feminine intuition. She may know that to OM she is not so important. He would have wooed her away from you to marry him if he were that interested.


----------



## just got it 55

RUSS GET ON THIS NOW I FEAR YOU ARE LOSING HER IN STILL LIFE.
Get an action plan starting now

Use the advice given to you here

Put this in motion NOW

Clear her fog NOW

Put all your options on the table NOW

In a month it will be too late


----------



## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> John, I think most of us following your thread have been pessimistic, but you seem to getting your shı† together at the last minute. This is a glimmer of hope for your marriage. And if it doesn't, you may recover and be stronger rather quickly, given that you have been struggling with this for some time already.
> 
> You need all the intelligence you can get, the emails and VAR. Hope you are saving the emails so that you have them for reference.
> 
> Presenting your wife with D papers asap is the strongest card you have at this point. Calm 180 reserve. If she asks you why you want to D, you should not engage her in discussion. Just reply that she ought to know herself and leave it at that. Perhaps if she is insistent, you can add that she has "disappointed" you. Tell her if D really bothers her, she can set up MC, but at this point you have nothing much to say to her.
> 
> If she is indifferent, then you are only getting to the end sooner rather than later. Better for you.
> 
> Should she, upon self examination, discover that she loves you, you may turn things around.
> 
> Her chase after OM is just a primate mating drama. She is raising her rump for a chimp she considers more alpha than you, your calm response may make her reconsider you as a mate.
> 
> One factor that may influence her is her feminine intuition. She may know that to OM she is not so important. He would have wooed her away from you to marry him if he were that interested.


All good point here


----------



## azteca1986

warlock07 said:


> VAR her car..


Don't overlook this. She was in her car because whatever they talked about couldn't be discussed in front of you.

I gather SONY are a brand to trust.


----------



## Hicks

You don't disallow her from having a relationship with him but then you confront her about staying out foe too long? Don't you see how weak this looks?

If the relationship is inappropriate you stop it. Why are you waiting for it to become physical? 

Man up and take the marriage and life you deserve.


----------



## ThePheonix

John at some point everyone has to ask, "do I really want to devote the remaining years, or maybe days, of my remaining life with someone who willingly puts me on a shelf while they do their thing". It's kinda like the saying, "if you ain't the lead dog, the view is always the same". You cannot be the lead dog in everything, but you damn well need to be in your marriage. On the back side of my 60's and a hell of a lot of experience with women, I can tell you that what you're putting up with ain't worth it and can easily be rectified. Ask yourself this, "what does she have that's so special that makes this crap worth putting up with? Or better yet, "what am I getting from her that makes losing her a bad deal. It's really not hard to replace a situation that drags you down. 
Like my uncle said, " If love is unequal, its better to have a woman that is more in love with you than to have one where you are more in love with them."


----------



## LongWalk

ThePheonix said:


> John at some point everyone has to ask, "do I really want to devote the remaining years, or maybe days, of my remaining life with someone who willingly puts me on a shelf while they do their thing". It's kinda like the saying, "if you ain't the lead dog, the view is always the same". You cannot be the lead dog in everything, but you damn well need to be in your marriage. On the back side of my 60's and a hell of a lot of experience with women, I can tell you that what you're putting up with ain't worth it and can easily be rectified. Ask yourself this, "what does she have that's so special that makes this crap worth putting up with? Or better yet, "what am I getting from her that makes losing her a bad deal. It's really not hard to replace a situation that drags you down.
> *Like my uncle said, " If love is unequal, its better to have a woman that is more in love with you than to have one where you are more in love with them.*"


Who loves more can change over the lifetime of a marriage. People change. Luck plays a role.


----------



## aug

warlock07 said:


> VAR her car..



Do this asap.

Go buy a voice activated recorder (VAR). Get a decent one. Heck get 2 so that you have one for recording while you listen to the other one.


----------



## jnj express

Hey Russ----enuff is enuff---you know what is going on---she knows what is going on----SETTLE IT, AND SETTLE IT NOW

Just have a serious conversation with her---without anyone else in the house----lay it all out----tell her you know she is in an EA---probably a PA----and what are her intentions

You don't need all kinds of evidence for this---what you need to do---is find out where your mge is headed, and do it before her lover returns---and you get hurt really bad

No major confrontation---just talk cool and calm---tell her you know what she is doing---tell her to stop her lying---and tell her point blank you want her to make a decision---either she drops all contact with this guy----or you are seeing an atty, and filing for D

She has not been faced with those words/actions---she has not been pushed----WELL ITS TIME TO PUSH

Immediately go dark on her, and go into a strong 180----but you tell her----if she wants this mge to work---there is to be NC

As to the job---No one knows your finances but the 2 of you---if the 2 of you decide to R---and your finances can stand her leaving the job---then she leaves---if they cannot---then YOU have a problem--cuz contact will continue---no matter what

If it is decided the 2 of you will D---then she keeps her job

You are at a crossroads, and you both got to pick a road to go down----enuff of this pretending you don't know what is going on, and her playing her little games----you both know what is happening, and its time for push to come to shove

Do not allow her to deny---tell her if she tries to deny---she is lying, you both know it---and you are just gonna file for D

Believe me this will get you on the road to a decisionone way or another---but do not allow him to return


----------



## Iver

I suspect that once you VAR the car this will be over soon. 

You can decide at that point if you want to call it quits or lay down an ultimatum. 

Unfortunately I don't see your wife being willing to give this up even if it means the end of her marriage. 

Sorry you are in this position but as a number of posters have already said - life is way too short to have to put up with this kind of disrespect.


----------



## aug

It wont be over soon. They worked together. Now he's transferring back and she has asked to be transferred to his department.

VAR will catch the side discussions. It will not catch any discussions during work.

Unless she quits her job. That aint going to happen.

The best strategy for now is to position yourself to get spousal support from her since she makes way more than you.


----------



## Iver

I think it's likely he'll hear things on the VAR that point to a PA. That's what I meant when I wrote that it'll be over soon.

It'll over for him.


----------



## Chaparral

Tell your wife while she is helping her boyfriend move and get settled, he can help her move out and help with her divorce on grounds of adultery.


Have you read the two books in my signature? This is of the utmost importance. Please do this now. They have a good chance of helping you save your marriage.


----------



## Rollin

Start hitting the gym, detach from her. Prepare for the worst. 

BTW you should put the VAR in ASAP, don't wait any longer.


----------



## ThePheonix

LongWalk said:


> Who loves more can change over the lifetime of a marriage. People change. Luck plays a role.


That is true. My wife and I said we'd love each other forever; and so far, we are on track. However, if she let someone else cause me to become second place, "forever" would be over and I'd be gone.




jnj express said:


> Hey Russ----enuff is enuff---you know what is going on---she knows what is going on----SETTLE IT, AND SETTLE IT NOW


I agree. Whether or not she's warming up this guy bed, ole John has put up with a lot more of her "BFF" than I would have stood. Like cars, there are a lot out there that ride just as good, or better, and with less mileage.


----------



## weightlifter

Sigh.

Sony var icdpx312 one in her car and one in wherever she talks to him in the house. I can't go to best buy for you. Don't substitute for anything butbsony.


----------



## Shaggy

You .might go to her HR and in confidence alert them to your suspicions.

I'd be in James Bond mode when he gets near town. If he's moving back there will be trips to visit the office before the move where he will be in a hotel.


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## workindad

Definitley VAR the car and very very soon. She will be having more discussions with him moving back. Once back, you could miss out on conversations taking place outside her car.


----------



## VFW

Cowboy you need to put a VAR in her car and then back off and give her enough rope to hang herself.


----------



## Entropy3000

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


So for the moment lets assume she has not had sex with this guy. So still rather than engage this to shut it down, you are going to make sure you are out of the area and that she can be isolated with this guy. Then you hope a PI can catch them in the act. Right. Keep on this track and you will eventually et what ou are looking for. The shame of it is that it may have been prevented.


----------



## Chaparral

Let me see if I understand you. You are less embarassed by another man poking your wife than you are by doing the detective work to save your family. Wonder what your kids will think of your weak kneed attempts to keep your home safe from predators.

I am guessing the OM would not put up with another man taking his woman.

Can't you see the cause and effect here?


----------



## bfree

:iagree: With the last two posts.

I would make her quit her job. Why are men so afraid of confrontation?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. * What do you all think of this?*


You are one of the hard learners, that is, you don't actually learn from the posters here.


----------



## Thor

Two different approaches are possible. Do NOT go in the middle ground.

1) Confront her today. Tell her the relationship with the ex-boss is unacceptable to you and you will not remain married to her unless she follow through on a number of requirements (NC, change jobs, total transparency in her communications, MC, etc).

or

2) STFU and gather intel for a short while. This would be so you can then expose to the world to try to nuke the affair, or to satisfy your need for concrete evidence of her affair so that you can D with a clear conscience.

The middle ground you MUST avoid is making snide remarks like the one about how long it took to drop the kid off. Such remarks or questions reveal your suspicions without any benefit to you. You look weak. It does not scare her away from posom, it just alerts her to the need to be more stealthy to hide the affair from you.


----------



## jnj express

I can only reiterate one thing------I have said it before, and I am saying it now

Settle this thing one way or the other B4---her lover comes home

She has already openly at that party 3 or more yrs ago---CHOSEN HIM OVER YOU AND HER OWN KIDS

They have not seen each other for 3 yrs, yet stayed in contact---agst your wishes-------

If you don't put a stop to this now---with some strong consequences---you are gonna be hurting 1000 times more than you hurt now

I am willing to bet the 1st time she SEES him, she will BE IN HIS ARMS


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

jnj express said:


> I can only reiterate one thing------I have said it before, and I am saying it now
> 
> Settle this thing one way or the other B4---her lover comes home
> 
> She has already openly at that party 3 or more yrs ago---CHOSEN HIM OVER YOU AND HER OWN KIDS
> 
> They have not seen each other for 3 yrs, yet stayed in contact---agst your wishes-------
> 
> If you don't put a stop to this now---with some strong consequences---you are gonna be hurting 1000 times more than you hurt now
> 
> I am willing to bet the 1st time she SEES him, she will BE IN HIS ARMS


He has already said that he was going to hire a PI for when the OM moves back.

He should just put a GPS in her car. It's allot cheaper than a PI and he can personally catch them in the act himself.

And yes, they will have sex(again?...). So, If you're going to wait until the boss man is back to do anything substantial in ending this affair. you should start preparing for divorce right now.

Because, once they start talking, in person again, that's where this is headed.

Did you ever confront your wife about the boss man putting his hand up her skirt? You might want to bring it up the next time she shoots down your attempts to stop her affair...


----------



## jnj express

He has never confronted about the skirt incident---and it was that very same night, and part of that action---WHERE SHE CHOSE HER LOVER OVER HER H

As to the GPS----it is good sometimes, and meaningless sometimes---she can go to work---leave her car and its GPS in the parking lot, and travel in someone else's car----same for going out, where she says she might be going, such as a mall---she can leave the car at the mall, and travel in another car---so GPS works, sometimes, and not so great other times

If Russ waits for a PI to get him irrefutable evid---big deal, it will only add to what he already knows, and is worth nothing in a D proceeding in a no fault state

He knows what is going on---he has plenty of circumstantial evid---to demand that she listen to him, and come to some kind of a decision, as to what she wants

He cannot control what she does---he can only decide his future, for himself----but if he waits------I am willing to bet---she will be back in her lovers arms, as fast as she can get there---and where at least now there is only the pain, of the EA---the pain is gonna get a thousand times worse---if the EA continues and becomes a PA---especially if he in his own mind knows he could have/should have tried to stop it

All he can do is try---but try he must, and it must be done before the lover RETURNS


----------



## JCD

You going to wait until he has incontrovertible proof...and it will break your heart and spirit.

Does this seem smart to you?

She has signaled her INCREDIBLY low interest levels in you already, chunking up 30 pounds to avoid having to have sex with you.

So..what does this suggest? If you won't do it for yourself, do it for the kids. But her glass is too full of him to leave any room for YOU!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Do you have access to the phone records? You look at the records, see who she called at the time she dropped of your daughter and then you confront. 

If a phone conversation, email or text makes you leave the room and hide, it is inappropriate. Unless, of course, you are planning a gift or other reasonable situation. Obviously, that isn't the case.


----------



## ironman

russ101 said:


> Its been a couple of days so I thought I would share. Been checking the wifes texts read a couple of them she sent to her ex boss. Nothing real bad, but it is very easy to tell she is looking forward to his return. She didn't delete the texts right away (maybe a day or two later) but she did eventually delete it and no other texts. I also listened to her conversation with him on the phone the other night courtesy of the VAR and got some bad news that I need to confront her about, just not sure when I should. She was definitley asking him if there would be any openings in his department when he returned. I'm sure she is looking to work under him again (although she never came out and said it directly).
> 
> I do think I have a plan to get to the bottom of this one way or another, I just don't think I can keep monitoring her like this (don't feel right doing it, when I can't find any smoking gun). I plan on arranging a vacation up north to a waterpark during memorial weekend because I found out through one of her texts that he will be in town then for his mothers birthday. I have a feeling that she is going to come up with an excuse to not go. Not really sure why I think this, I just do. If she does, I am going to have a PI ready. I need to know one way or another if this is really more than a friendship or not. What do you all think of this?


John,

I've been saying it from day 1 ... she had an affair. And now she's getting excited she gets to do it again soon. 

Even after all this time and evidence you still don't believe ... you surely cannot deny that your wife doesn't really love you anymore. Isn't it obvious to you by now? She's going through the motions with you (feigning love, playing family, etc), yet she loves/lust her ex-boss. Her actions are evidence of this. This in itself is enough reason to not be married to her any longer.

Life is too short. Why waste one more minute of it in this sad situation you find yourself in? If I were you, I'd plan a surprise confrontation with her with divorce papers in hand. I also would not reveal any information about "how I know", just that "I know".

You've done everything except what needs to be done to save your marriage .. so you might as well end it. Everyone involved will be better off for it.


----------



## LongWalk

Ironman is correct
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

ironman said:


> John,
> 
> I've been saying it from day 1 ... she had an affair. And now she's getting excited she gets to do it again soon.
> 
> Even after all this time and evidence you still don't believe ... you surely cannot deny that your wife doesn't really love you anymore. Isn't it obvious to you by now? She's going through the motions with you (feigning love, playing family, etc), yet she loves/lust her ex-boss. Her actions are evidence of this. This in itself is enough reason to not be married to her any longer.
> 
> Life is too short. Why waste one more minute of it in this sad situation you find yourself in? If I were you, I'd plan a surprise confrontation with her with divorce papers in hand. I also would not reveal any information about "how I know", just that "I know".
> 
> You've done everything except what needs to be done to save your marriage .. so you might as well end it. Everyone involved will be better off for it.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## LongWalk

D papers delivered, looking her in the eye, but without any meaningless verbal exchange will send a physical shock through her being. The beta husband was not blind and has had enough. The shock may pass quickly into relief because above all she wants an exit pass to get to her beloved boss man. If that is so, accept it and move on with your head erect. Do not let her impose a pity ILYBNILWY speech on you.

If she hesitates and shows remorse by clinging to you – and you must let her come to you. You can tell her she needs a good fvcking. Maybe you need to whisper something dirty in her ear. Give her the papers somewhere that you can bend her over and give it to her on the spot, over the couch, for example. You need to leave her knees trembling when it is done. Afterwards, she does not get a tender kiss. You can save that for the next time.

It may be a long shot but if it happens, her body will not open for boss man as easily. You can almost steal his momentum and use it against him. The alpha male does not always win the race. Sometimes there is a beta dude with a mean streak waiting to plant stone on his head at the finish line. 

But however it plays out, you must, as others have noted before, play the hand that you have to the extreme. There is no middle ground for a deep EA like this.


----------



## weightlifter

Agree.

There are 4 paths in front of you. 

1) Current one where you are a cuckhold and have to hand over your man card. GET OFF THIS ROAD. PICK YOUR DAMN EGO OFF THE GROUND AND USE IT DAMMIT!
2) GO investigate for a weekish then confront after my var thing.
3) Just divorce her. Dude honestly. I would rate this the #2 pick. She just aint into you any more. Find a loyal female. Younger and hotter is the best revenge possible.
4) Then confront and destroy now on the basis of EA and continued contact. Threaten its him or me NOW, not in 2 months, NOW! Dont be surrpised if its him. Nonetheless refuse to be a cuckhold and refuse to be plan b while disrupting her timeline.

UGH we got two of these plan b guys going on now! TIME TO WAKE UP. REFUSE TO BE PLAN B!


----------



## tom67

I hope you see the only way you have a remote chance of saving this is by filing. There have to be consequences. I hope you consider this after your appointment with the lawyer.


----------



## Entropy3000

jnj express said:


> He has never confronted about the skirt incident---and it was that very same night, and part of that action---WHERE SHE CHOSE HER LOVER OVER HER H
> 
> As to the GPS----it is good sometimes, and meaningless sometimes---she can go to work---leave her car and its GPS in the parking lot, and travel in someone else's car----same for going out, where she says she might be going, such as a mall---she can leave the car at the mall, and travel in another car---so GPS works, sometimes, and not so great other times
> 
> If Russ waits for a PI to get him irrefutable evid---big deal, it will only add to what he already knows, and is worth nothing in a D proceeding in a no fault state
> 
> He knows what is going on---he has plenty of circumstantial evid---to demand that she listen to him, and come to some kind of a decision, as to what she wants
> 
> He cannot control what she does---he can only decide his future, for himself----but if he waits------I am willing to bet---she will be back in her lovers arms, as fast as she can get there---and where at least now there is only the pain, of the EA---the pain is gonna get a thousand times worse---if the EA continues and becomes a PA---especially if he in his own mind knows he could have/should have tried to stop it
> 
> All he can do is try---but try he must, and it must be done before the lover RETURNS


I agree. If he waits he will get his evidence. So what is the point of that?


----------



## Iver

I do feel he should get more evidence - the VAR is the easiest & cheapest route for starters. If she's having long conversations in her car with the guy if there is anything going on it's going to be heard.

If he doesn't have the proof all he's going to get is Deny, Deny and Deny. She'll claim he's paraoid/controlling/etc..

That doesn't change the basic dynamic of how disrespectful she's being based on what he knows now but I don't think he is inclined to file based on that just yet.


----------



## just got it 55

I am at at loss I have nothing say

Sorry I changed my mind. I just went back to your first thread post.It was 2 years ago ?. 

Man no change same stuff I bet if I invested the time to look at the other post in the 4 or 5 other threads it would be the same sh!t.

You my friend have not learned a dam thing.You will not change and she will not either.What you see is what you get. The both of you deserve eachother.

Please someone tell us why we should invest the time into this pathetic man ? He needs serious help


----------



## talin

just got it 55 said:


> I just went back to your first thread post.It was 2 years ago ?.


Go read his first post on THIS thread and it will be clear that the Ops first post on this forum was on THIS thread only a few weeks ago, not 2 years ago.


----------



## LongWalk

tom67 said:


> I hope you see the only way you have *a remote chance of saving this is by filing*. There have to be consequences. I hope you consider this after your appointment with the lawyer.


I said this twice at least. Shı†, TAM keeps playing broken records, skip...skip....skip... divorce.... skip.... skip divorce.... skip... skip.. divorce.

But you must get the papers ready like yesterday because once OM's dıck goes in her she won't remember your middle name or date of birth anymore.


----------



## just got it 55

talin said:


> Go read his first post on THIS thread and it will be clear that the Ops first post on this forum was on THIS thread only a few weeks ago, not 2 years ago.


confused what should I do?
russ101 dated 1--22--10 9:24 PM

It all reads the same see Larry the guy his wife walked with and kissed her bla bla bla wha wha wha


----------



## Entropy3000

just got it 55 said:


> confused what should I do?
> russ101 dated 1--22--10 9:24 PM
> 
> It all reads the same see Larry the guy his wife walked with and kissed her bla bla bla wha wha wha


And yet this is really ... John?


----------



## Dyokemm

John,

I think you have enough info already to put your foot down and give her an ultimatum about your marriage. She has disrespected you enough already. I'd confront her and tell her to choose the marriage or POS now before the situation gets any worse. 

You will probably never get all the questions you now have from the past answered, though you could try a poly if she chooses the marriage after you confront.

But if you don not want these embers getting fanned back up into a raging inferno in the near future, you have to put her on the spot now. Don't let her gaslight at all. The info you already do have is clear evidence of her betraying your relationship.

She has to choose NOW. And be ready to follow through if she gets defiant or non-commital. Like the members her often say, you have to be prepared to lose the marriage to save it.


----------



## russ101

haven't been on in a few days and just read all of your responses and have to update you. My plan to trap her fell through because after reading wifes texts found out her ex boss was not coming back this weekend after all, but in 3 weeks. So we are still going to the waterpark with my wife. Had a few beers then decided to take some of your advice (for better or worse) and confront her with the story I had been told.

I told her that someone (would not say who, even though she kept asking) saw her the day of the party with the boss in the parking lot and that he had his hands on her leg for some time caressing her, and that she didn't push his hand away until he tried to move up her dress. I said then you left with him. How do you think that looks to me? Tell me now while you have the chance, did you sleep with him when you went back to his place, or did you ever do anything inappropriate with him?

She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends. She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk. She said it was the only time in the entire time she spent with him that he ever tried anything. She said she followed him home and talked to him for about 5 minutes when they got there, then she came home. The time does match up. 

I said that alone makes me uncomfortable with you talking and texting him like this. She said I swear I have never done anything with him other than talk, and give him a good bye hug when he left. If I wanted to be with him, I would have just left you and done that. I'm not like that! I said would you be willing to take a lie detector test and answer my questions about him? She said absolutley, but then you have to take a lie detector test and answer questions I have for you. She would not elaborate on the questions. 

I said the amount of time you spend with him on the phone, texting, etc. and the fact that you don't want to have sex hardly ever anymore tells me that you are in at least an emotional affair with him. She said she never even heard the term, and after I explained it to her she said she didn't even believe that that was even an affair. She seems very adament about never being anything more than a friend with him, and since I cannot prove anything else, I have decided to actually go take her up on her offer to do the polygraph. Not sure who to contact though. I need to know one way or another whether she is telling me the truth or not. I am a little nervous about what she wants to ask me though on a polygraph (don't really have anything to hide though). 

she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. We ended up talking for a long time, and I never told her about the fact that I knew she was trying to get transferred back to his building because I didn't want to tell her I have been monitoring her. I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just scedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all. 

I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can. I don't want to end a marriage if I am wrong about this! If I am right then I will tell her she goes NC with him ever. I will let you know when the poly is scheduled.


----------



## LostViking

She would be into you more if you made more money?!

Is she serious? Oh my gosh. That statement alone would have me calling a lawyer. This is gaslighting and blame shifting on a gargantuan level. 

Go talk to an attorney and find out your rights. She has obviously checked out of the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BK23

I don't understand why you even want to be with this woman. She is treating you abominably. You deserve way better than this.


----------



## BrockLanders

russ101 said:


> haven't been on in a few days and just read all of your responses and have to update you. My plan to trap her fell through because after reading wifes texts found out her ex boss was not coming back this weekend after all, but in 3 weeks. So we are still going to the waterpark with my wife. Had a few beers then decided to take some of your advice (for better or worse) and confront her with the story I had been told.
> 
> I told her that someone (would not say who, even though she kept asking) saw her the day of the party with the boss in the parking lot and that he had his hands on her leg for some time caressing her, and that she didn't push his hand away until he tried to move up her dress. I said then you left with him. How do you think that looks to me? Tell me now while you have the chance, did you sleep with him when you went back to his place, or did you ever do anything inappropriate with him?
> 
> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends. She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk. She said it was the only time in the entire time she spent with him that he ever tried anything. She said she followed him home and talked to him for about 5 minutes when they got there, then she came home. The time does match up.
> 
> I said that alone makes me uncomfortable with you talking and texting him like this. She said I swear I have never done anything with him other than talk, and give him a good bye hug when he left. If I wanted to be with him, I would have just left you and done that. I'm not like that! I said would you be willing to take a lie detector test and answer my questions about him? She said absolutley, but then you have to take a lie detector test and answer questions I have for you. She would not elaborate on the questions.
> 
> I said the amount of time you spend with him on the phone, texting, etc. and the fact that you don't want to have sex hardly ever anymore tells me that you are in at least an emotional affair with him. She said she never even heard the term, and after I explained it to her she said she didn't even believe that that was even an affair. She seems very adament about never being anything more than a friend with him, and since I cannot prove anything else, I have decided to actually go take her up on her offer to do the polygraph. Not sure who to contact though. I need to know one way or another whether she is telling me the truth or not. I am a little nervous about what she wants to ask me though on a polygraph (don't really have anything to hide though).
> 
> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. We ended up talking for a long time, and I never told her about the fact that I knew she was trying to get transferred back to his building because I didn't want to tell her I have been monitoring her. I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just scedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all.
> 
> I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can. I don't want to end a marriage if I am wrong about this! If I am right then I will tell her she goes NC with him ever. I will let you know when the poly is scheduled.


Any dirt on you that she's going to find out?


----------



## Shaggy

Make her also read Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass

You start finding polygraphs using google.


----------



## carolinadreams

russ101 said:


> haven't been on in a few days and just read all of your responses and have to update you. My plan to trap her fell through because after reading wifes texts found out her ex boss was not coming back this weekend after all, but in 3 weeks. So we are still going to the waterpark with my wife. Had a few beers then decided to take some of your advice (for better or worse) and confront her with the story I had been told.
> 
> I told her that someone (would not say who, even though she kept asking) saw her the day of the party with the boss in the parking lot and that he had his hands on her leg for some time caressing her, and that she didn't push his hand away until he tried to move up her dress. I said then you left with him. How do you think that looks to me? Tell me now while you have the chance, did you sleep with him when you went back to his place, or did you ever do anything inappropriate with him?
> 
> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends. She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk. She said it was the only time in the entire time she spent with him that he ever tried anything. She said she followed him home and talked to him for about 5 minutes when they got there, then she came home. The time does match up.
> 
> I said that alone makes me uncomfortable with you talking and texting him like this. She said I swear I have never done anything with him other than talk, and give him a good bye hug when he left. If I wanted to be with him, I would have just left you and done that. I'm not like that! I said would you be willing to take a lie detector test and answer my questions about him? She said absolutley, but then you have to take a lie detector test and answer questions I have for you. She would not elaborate on the questions.
> 
> I said the amount of time you spend with him on the phone, texting, etc. and the fact that you don't want to have sex hardly ever anymore tells me that you are in at least an emotional affair with him. She said she never even heard the term, and after I explained it to her she said she didn't even believe that that was even an affair. She seems very adament about never being anything more than a friend with him, and since I cannot prove anything else, I have decided to actually go take her up on her offer to do the polygraph. Not sure who to contact though. I need to know one way or another whether she is telling me the truth or not. I am a little nervous about what she wants to ask me though on a polygraph (don't really have anything to hide though).
> 
> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. We ended up talking for a long time, and I never told her about the fact that I knew she was trying to get transferred back to his building because I didn't want to tell her I have been monitoring her. I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just scedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all.
> 
> I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can. I don't want to end a marriage if I am wrong about this! If I am right then I will tell her she goes NC with him ever. I will let you know when the poly is scheduled.


I think you don't value you yourself enough. Honestly if you won't stand up for yourself, then no amount of polygraphs will matter. It ultimately comes down to you valuing yourself.

I wouldn't spend another dime on her until she goes to some counseling and gets her priorities straight. You're allowing your wife to dictate terms to you, and run your marriage. Some people are okay with that , it sounds like deep down you aren't.

I don't think you are a wimp, but I think you are submerging your desires to placate your wife. 

Back to the beginning though until you value yourself nothing anyone says here means anything - the worst advice or the best advice is all the same because you will allow your wife to make you dance for her love and affection, and you never feed a narcissist.


----------



## BobSimmons

If you want me to be more into you make more money..

My boss makes alot of money I'm into him...

He was drunk so he drove? And she followed him home to talk for 5 minutes...why couldn't they talk in the parking lot..

So she has resentment for you thus less sex..but if you make more money the hormones will suddenly increase and shell jump you..

You're not a wimp buddy, unfortunately you're being shoveled a whole lot of brown stuff and you keep accepting it.

I'd also be worried by what she said..we are married so we are stuck together..not exactly the words full of hope or commitment. She's stuck with you but in this guy she has a man who makes a lot of money and most probably a bit more alpha than you. Her escape from purgatory..or in this case your marriage.


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## Acabado

russ101 said:


> she then said look, *I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already *(hormones declining and *resentment about our finances*). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but *were stuck together*. We got married, I don't take that lightly. *If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc*. Ok just scedule the poly so *you can stop talking about this once and for all*.


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## Acabado

Acabado said:


> were stuck together


YOU are not if you won't want to.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Is it just me or does that read like it is all his fault?


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## TBT

russ101 said:


> As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends.


Imo,even if she did,he still felt for some reason that it would be acceptable.He could still drive,so he must have known what he was doing.That shows a complete lack of respect for you and your marriage in my book.What happens next time?


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## LongWalk

> I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just schedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all.


What sort of friendship will you allow if she passes the polygraph?

John, John :scratchhead:

Just divorce and be done with it.


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## Chaparral

Number one check with the state police or large local law enforcementand see who they use for polygraphs. There are a lot of goofs out there.



Since she wants more money to get laid and she is not into sex, ask her if she would mind if you got a little somewhere else.

It is painfully obvious you hae not read MMSLP and NOT JUST FRIENDS. Why does that seem to be an insurmountable problem for you? I get the feelingbyou are not really looking to change the dynamic in your relationship. It is unbelievable how many want to kick themselves in the ass after they have bothered to read these books.


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## Chaparral

Normally , we do not recommend talking to the om. However, if she passes the poly, call him and tell him what you heard, your wife admited it and if he ever touches or speaks disrespectfully to her again there is a Lousiville Slugger in his future.


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## Will_Kane

russ101 said:


> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. *If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc.*


Did she give you a dollar amount of money you had to shoot for so she could feel sexual desire for you?

Why don't you just get a few $100s and wrap them around your d1ck and see if that turns her on?

Did she really say that?


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## Dyokemm

So she denies it is an EA ever after you explain the term, huh?

Then how does she explain crying to POS on the phone while telling him she misses him?

That single act alone is confirmation of a n improper attachment.


----------



## turnera

Please read NMMNG and MMSLP


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## Will_Kane

Maybe I missed something, so correct me if I'm wrong, but she doesn't know you are monitoring her messages and there is nothing in the messages that is sexual or romantic. He has made it clear that he desires her, touching her leg. You know she idolizes him. Something here is amiss.

No way I would be comfortable with my wife talking to this guy knowing that he touched her on the leg, but maybe she is telling the truth about there being nothing sexual or romantic between them, at least not from her end.

It seems like she has drawn the line at "I love you" or anything sexual. My take is that he is playing a waiting game with her, he thought maybe that time at the party was right, but she turned him down, so he retreated and now is just playing his game again.

I think it's time for YOU to stop playing this game. The thing about "if you make $100K I will get wet for you" is just ridiculous to put up with. You've got to straighten that situation out. In my opinion, that is your number one problem at the moment. If your wife really bases her romantic desire for you based on what you earn, do you really want to stay with a woman like that?

Second, her relationship with the other man is unacceptable for a married woman. It shows a lack of respect to continue to be so "into" this guy who made a pass at her, drunk or not. The reason he did it is because she is giving him mixed signals. Texts him constantly and openly idolizes him, then tells him (gently) "no, not there." You have to insist that she not VIGOROUSLY PURSUE a relationship with another man who has romantic or sexual interest in her.

The more I think about it, your wife sounds pretty messed up.


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## just got it 55

I think Russ101 is displayng the most insidious form of passive aggressive I have ever witnessed.I think I know what his wife has been dealing with.


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## LostViking

Interesting that when he carressed her leg she pushed his hand away, but did not back away from him or remove herself from his reach. 

She was enticing him. Playing with him. Look but don't touch....well, maybe a little. 

There was nothing innocent, accidental or anything that can be excused by his drunkenness. She wanted to be near him. Don't let her tell you otherwise.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

"Dear John,"

You should get use to that term 'cause it's commin' your way.

So your wife will start loving you more and have sex with you if you start hauling in more money.

WOW, just friggen wow.

You need to start thinking about you and you alone. Because brother, alone is where you're gonna be in a few years time.

Start working on yourself. And when I say working, I'm not talking about making more money for your wife. You have fallen so far off your WS's radar that she doesn't even hide the fact that she doesn't want to be with you anymore.

It's time for you to start doing things to yourself and for yourself. Working out and getting out more often would be a good start. You should start by reading the fore mentioned books.

Once you start feeling better about yourself, about the new man you're starting to change into and become, you'll be better equiped to tell your wife when you are not happy about things like her EA.

The polygraph is fine. She can get p1ssed about it, but she brought it upon herself. I have a feeling that after(IF) she passes, she's going to be even more standoffish for a while. Use this to your advantage. When ever you're getting the cold shoulder from her, do something for yourself. Workout, read, anything, just keep improving.


----------



## TRy

russ101 said:


> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends. She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk.


 Tell her that the fact that she did not tell you on her own that he had made a pass at her is very troubling and a reason for you to be suspicious of their relationship. Also, tell her that the other person had no reason to lie to you and that they specifically said that she let him rub her leg for a couple minutes and only pushed him off when he tried to reach under her dress.



russ101 said:


> It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc.


 Discuss this with her, and say that since Phil is a VP that makes more money than you, you are concerned that by her own definition of what she wants sexually, that this means that he is more romantically viable to her than you. Tell her that such a guy that makes more money than you, that is single, that has shown an interest in being more that just a friend and has shown a desire to take it romantic, is not an appropriate person for a married woman to have as a friend; that just friends do not have sexual tension between them. 

Once he crossed the line of inappropriate behavior, he can no longer be viewed by you as an appropriate friend for your wife. Let her know that her having another man (OM) waiting at the ready for there to be a normal bump in your marraige for him to make another move is unfair to you as her husband. Do not wait for the Poly. Tell her that based on the fact that he has shown that he cannot be trusted by you, and that she did not on her own tell you about the pass, and that you had to learn about it from someone else, you do not want her to maintain a friendship with this OM. Tell her that you rarely take a stand on such things but that you must demand that she end all contact with him immediately. Be prepared for a fight over this and be willing to go to war over it. Do not back down. She must pick either you or him now.


----------



## Thor

Her comment about making more money may be psychological leakage. She is attracted to the boss who makes good money, and so when she needs to come up with a reason to tell John why she isn't interested in sex with John, she says money.


----------



## Dyokemm

I think you really shot yourself in the foot by agreeing to let her keep POS as a friend if she passes the poly. Big mistake.

That scumbag needs to go ASAP before this situation gets worse.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

I simply can't believe what you are willing to put up with from your wife. 

First of all you are being trickle-truthed. Second of all, she had the nerve to blame your earnings or lack thereof for her lack of sexual desire for you. ANd last she says that you two are 'stuck together'.

Stuck together? Are you kidding me? Can I ask a simple question: what are you getting out of this marriage that you want to save so much?

Your wife is full of BS, utter BS. Her comments were absolutely insulting. And yes, you ARE a wimp. Just imagining myself in that situation hearing those comments makes my blood boil. I very well may have said screw the polygraph test and screw a marriage where my wife doesn't love me and stays with me only because she feels she must. I'm filing and you my dear can have all the chances in the world to find a man whom you truly enjoy having sex with thanks to his wonderful salary. I do believe there's someone you know who fits that bill very well, his name is Phil.

I think I'm done with this thread giving advice. I just can't stand it anymore. One last word, please John, ask yourself seriously whether you have been at all happy with this woman over the last 4 years and ask yourself what is to come if you keep going on with her. Her treatment of you is appalling.

May I repeat? You are married to a woman that doesn't love you.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

TRy said:


> Tell her that the fact that she did not tell you on her own that he had made a pass at her is very troubling and a reason for you to be suspicious of their relationship. Also, tell her that the other person had no reason to lie to you and that they specifically said that she let him rub her leg for a couple minutes and only pushed him off when he tried to reach under her dress.
> 
> Discuss this with her, and say that since Phil is a VP that makes more money than you, you are concerned that by her own definition of what she wants sexually, that this means that he is more romantically viable to her than you. Tell her that such a guy that makes more money than you, that is single, that has shown an interest in being more that just a friend and has shown a desire to take it romantic, is not an appropriate person for a married woman to have as a friend; that just friends do not have sexual tension between them.
> 
> Once he crossed the line of inappropriate behavior, he can no longer be viewed by you as an appropriate friend for your wife. Let her know that her having another man (OM) waiting at the ready for there to be a normal bump in your marraige for him to make another move is unfair to you as her husband. Do not wait for the Poly. Tell her that based on the fact that he has shown that he cannot be trusted by you, and that she did not on her own tell you about the pass, and that you had to learn about it from someone else, you do not want her to maintain a friendship with this OM. Tell her that you rarely take a stand on such things but that you must demand that she end all contact with him immediately. Be prepared for a fight over this and be willing to go to war over it. Do not back down. She must pick either you or him now.


:iagree:

WHo needs a polygraph test here? What's to polygraph that isn't already clear?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

PreRaphaelite said:


> :iagree:
> 
> WHo needs a polygraph test here? What's to polygraph that isn't already clear?



I think the getting a polygraph is a major achievement by John.

The confrontation and succumbing to a poly is the first sign of owning the situation, so that is great.

The uncertainty of what happened in the past can be overcome with this poly.


*To John: *

She has to go on the poly first, and you could do that a month later. The situation demands that. You need to have the initiative and the time to process the information.

I expect that after the poly, or the threat of it, there need to be no poly for you.

Be just very careful with the questions, you can have them examined and thought off right here.


----------



## Rags

Thor said:


> Her comment about making more money may be psychological leakage. She is attracted to the boss who makes good money, and so when she needs to come up with a reason to tell John why she isn't interested in sex with John, she says money.


I think this is very likely to be true.

However if it is, it's perceptive of her to realise this.

There is an amusing moment my wife and I recall where, whilst calling up the current bank balance on the atm, it came up with (for us, then) a goodly number - and my wife just wrapped her arms around me and said 'I love you!'
And then drew back in horrific self realisation 

Having analysed it, she determined that her though processes were:
That's a nice amount of money->He earns well->He provides well for me and our child->he loves us->I love him

Women are hard wired to seek and attach to men who are able to look after them and provide a secure environment for them and their children. It takes a huge amount of willful intellectual feminism to overcome that - and even then it often fails.

Being a SAHD, when the wife provides financially, is not a naturally stable situation. It's not not politically correct to say, but that doesn't make it untrue. (Just dangerous to say, in some quarters.)

However - given that it is true (generally) - it may very well be the case if you did earn and provide better, she would feel more attraction to you.
Sad, but true.
Sorry.


----------



## azteca1986

So, after John's latest update, we're looking at a big "Nothing to see here". Or are we? Rather than closing the chapter I have more questions.



russ101 said:


> I told her that someone (would not say who, even though she kept asking) saw her the day of the party with the boss in the parking lot and that he had his hands on her leg for some time caressing her, and that she didn't push his hand away until he tried to move up her dress. I said then you left with him. How do you think that looks to me? Tell me now while you have the chance, did you sleep with him when you went back to his place, or did you ever do anything inappropriate with him?





> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends.


Why the pause? What is there to think about? Your boss makes a drunken pass at you "once" and instead of being indelibly seared into her memory (because it just the once, right?) she needs time to get her story straight...

More questions:
Why didn't she tell her husband?
Why is her response so mild? If I showed the lack of judgement of making a pass at a MARRIED friend of mine it would be terminal to our relationship. Let alone with a subordinate.
"We are just friends" - That's for the OP's benefit. He's heard it so many times before he's begun to believe it. That's a crappy reason, let's be honest. It's the worst one. She didn't say:
"I'm MARRIED!", "How dare you", "My kids are at this party" "You're my boss, you can't do that"



> She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk. She said it was the only time in the entire time she spent with him that he ever tried anything. She said she followed him home and talked to him for about 5 minutes when they got there, then she came home. The time does match up.


Oh well, no problem. It's perfectly acceptable because he was drunk and lonely, right?

Wrong.

Since when did your wife become the go-to-girl for a drunk lonely boss? Try that with the wrong woman and that's career threatening behaviour. Lucky for him he chose your wife, his 'Just good married friend'. Where on God's green earth did he get the idea that in the tragic circumstances he found himself in that he could find solace from your wife?

And now we're into the Land of Coincidence:


It's a coincidence that he was drunk (so not in the state he is at work) and...
It's a coincidence he'd just broken up with his girlfriend and...
It's a coincidence they were alone and...
It's a coincidence he made a pass at a married subordinate and she didn't report him and...
It's a coincidence he made a pass at a married subordinate and she didn't tell her husband and...
It's a coincidence that the ONLY time this type of thing happened there was a witness

And what was her reaction when her 'just good friend' made a pass at her? She's not disgusted/appalled/distraught because he's just wrecked there beautiful friendship. She drives back with him, leaving her family at the party and goes alone to his house. When he's drunk and already made a pass at her (drunk enough to make a pass, not too drunk to drive). 

And then they have a chat.

I'm not going to speculate because what she admitted to is bad enough. Oh, and by the way, you would be _amazed_ how often we hear on this board "This was the ONLY time".


----------



## Hicks

Not all marriage harming things are sexual affiars.

Hobbies, friends of either sex, jobs, kids... all of these when not put in the proper priority in a marital partners life will threaten a marriage.

Your wife is getting her emotional needs met through a friendship with a male that wants to get in her pants. 

You can never allow this if you want to have a marriage.

She must view you as the friend that wants in her pants.


----------



## Blue Firefly

russ101 said:


> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc.



I'm not really into you anymore
We're stuck together
She MIGHT be into you again if you start making more money

You've got bigger problems than adultery. 

I don't even see a foundation that you could rebuild your marriage upon. She's not going to love you till you start making more money? Do you really want to be married to a woman that love for you depends on the size of your paycheck?


----------



## turnera

> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot,


That was her taking time to fix her story, to decide whether to just gaslight you 100% or to give you a snippet of the truth to throw you off the scent. She chose the latter. And you bit.


----------



## Lordhavok

How much proof does this guy need? Looks like he's just prolonging the agony until he sees a video or something.


----------



## mrtickle

I think the problem often is that whilst we are all familiar with the term and principle of 'Emotional Affairs', to someone actually having one, they genuinely DON'T see this as an affair. They see it as a friendship - a close one - and one that makes them feel good, but they don't see it as cheating. They see their husband at home and still view them as the husband, although may be questioning in their mind why they don't have the same buzz or fun from the husband than they do from their friend, but quickly forget that and just focus on the friend.

Of course people like the posters here see this as an EA, and see the damage it can cause but seldom do the people involved view it in that way.

I left an EA continue for too long and there was no way back, so don't make that mistake.

We can't say for sure that this EA has gone physical yet (although signs are there), but I would urge you to continue communicating with your wife so she fully understands the hurt that an EA can cause, the way they can easily slip into being a PA and how this all consuming terror is harming your marriage more than anything. Try and get her to look from the outside in for a minute. It may not work, but it may set her own alarm bells off if she is so pro-marriage and anti-cheating as you suggest.

In terms of your discussion with her. I find the whole sex/money thing a bit bizarre to be honest. It sounds like a gripe that you won't be able to put right quickly, and therefore something she can perhaps use internally to fuel her interest in the OM potentially. I would kill that dead straight away. If you need to get more money coming in, get new hobbies or alpha-up in some ways, then do that - but don't do it based on the carrot of more sex being at the end of it. Do it for you. Chances are she would come up with another reason even if you did get more income.

The lie detector thing is interesting. Unless you have any skeletons in the closet that she may know about, I suspect her insistence that she has some questions for you is just a threat so you will feel uncomfortable enough to not go through with it. Presumably this rattled you and you asked her repeatedly what she wanted to ask? If so, she can see this and will just think you won't go through with it. The correct response (although I can see how this is very hard in the moment) would be to say 'Fine. Ask me anything - I've nothing to hide. I'll get it booked in then' and not mention it again. That would have her far more worried I think!

In terms of asking her about the parking lot feel-up, I think you perhaps missed a mini opportunity here. I would have been tempted to say that the un-named friend saw them passionately kissing and caressing EACH OTHER. Knowing that this wasn't even remotely true, she would baulk at this suggestion and say its a lie, but what would be interesting would be if she just flat out denied ANYTHING happened, or explained that yes, he felt her leg but she pushed it away. Receiving some validation of what you know actually happened, may instil some confidence in what she says. Right now, she has just told you what you already know, of course.

I don't know if I'd read too much into the 5-second delay. If she was blindsided with the question, it may take a few seconds to remember what happened and figure out how you structure the response. Body language during that 5 seconds would probably be more telling.


----------



## BrockLanders

turnera said:


> That was her taking time to fix her story, to decide whether to just gaslight you 100% or to give you a snippet of the truth to throw you off the scent. She chose the latter. And you bit.


This is what I thought as well.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

russ101 said:


> haven't been on in a few days and just read all of your responses and have to update you. My plan to trap her fell through because after reading wifes texts found out her ex boss was not coming back this weekend after all, but in 3 weeks. So we are still going to the waterpark with my wife. Had a few beers then decided to take some of your advice (for better or worse) and confront her with the story I had been told.
> 
> I told her that someone (would not say who, even though she kept asking) saw her the day of the party with the boss in the parking lot and that he had his hands on her leg for some time caressing her, and that she didn't push his hand away until he tried to move up her dress. I said then you left with him. How do you think that looks to me? Tell me now while you have the chance, did you sleep with him when you went back to his place, or did you ever do anything inappropriate with him?
> 
> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends. She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk. She said it was the only time in the entire time she spent with him that he ever tried anything. She said she followed him home and talked to him for about 5 minutes when they got there, then she came home. The time does match up.
> 
> I said that alone makes me uncomfortable with you talking and texting him like this. She said I swear I have never done anything with him other than talk, and give him a good bye hug when he left. If I wanted to be with him, I would have just left you and done that. I'm not like that! I said would you be willing to take a lie detector test and answer my questions about him? She said absolutley, but then you have to take a lie detector test and answer questions I have for you. She would not elaborate on the questions.
> 
> I said the amount of time you spend with him on the phone, texting, etc. and the fact that you don't want to have sex hardly ever anymore tells me that you are in at least an emotional affair with him. She said she never even heard the term, and after I explained it to her she said she didn't even believe that that was even an affair. She seems very adament about never being anything more than a friend with him, and since I cannot prove anything else, I have decided to actually go take her up on her offer to do the polygraph. Not sure who to contact though. I need to know one way or another whether she is telling me the truth or not. I am a little nervous about what she wants to ask me though on a polygraph (don't really have anything to hide though).
> 
> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. *If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. * We ended up talking for a long time, and I never told her about the fact that I knew she was trying to get transferred back to his building because I didn't want to tell her I have been monitoring her. I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just scedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all.
> 
> I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can. I don't want to end a marriage if I am wrong about this! If I am right then I will tell her she goes NC with him ever. I will let you know when the poly is scheduled.


So what is her going rate and is it a tiered system, 

like missionary only sex with lights off $100K
Lights on is +$20K
BJ's start at $250K
Anal...well you need 7 figures for that.

PS explain to her a high end escort who will ROCK YOUR world is about $500, once a week, that's $26,000
An extensive housekeeper $5200 per year
A good food plan $16500 per year
Dry cleaning $4000 per year

So aside from companionship, you can be taken care of sexually (by a woman who will do anything and give anything to you) house sparkling, clothes pressed and laundered and great food for $51,700 per year. You really don't need to make THAT much money and you also don't need to put up with a crappy attitude. And if you can cook for yourself and do your own laundry, you're talking less than $32,000 per year for weekly mind blowing sex and a clean house.


----------



## sandc

Just take what she gives you and be happy then. You're in an open marriage and don't realize it. You don't have the self-respect to demand more. This is your life. Embrace it. Just stop worrying and let her do whatever she wants to do. Won't it feel better to not worry any more?

Now, *I* would never allow my wife to blatantly lie to me like this. I would have more self-respect and demand a wife or divorce her. But that's me.


----------



## tom67

sandc said:


> Just take what she gives you and be happy then. You're in an open marriage and don't realize it. You don't have the self-respect to demand more. This is your life. Embrace it. Just stop worrying and let her do whatever she wants to do. Won't it feel better to not worry any more?
> 
> Now, *I* would never allow my wife to blatantly lie to me like this. I would have more self-respect and demand a wife or divorce her. But that's me.


Yep that's it you have gotten great advice here I'm done here and good luck.


----------



## akashNil

I think your wife took 5 seconds because:

1. She didn't expect that someone would have noticed that night's incidence.
2. She also quickly understood how much you know about that night (A relief to her, probably).
3. She quickly composed her answer around your knowledge of that night and then delivered it to you.

Maybe, you should have asked her: "There was someone observing everything you did that night, but I want it from your mouth". Then you could have compared the two versions.

She has also indirectly threatened you by referring to Money! Money excites her, and makes her romantic. Bosses do make more money than us 

Please don't give her more clues about your monitoring, although I think she knows that (as well as meaning of EA!!!). 

Best of luck. I have been there


----------



## LongWalk

John, your wife has an agile mind. She is slippery and certain of what she values. The very level of her conviction again suggests PA, not EA. without physical consummation, she would have been more on the defensive. Your struggle now is that she knows OM will not marry her. She content to take what she can get. Her contempt for you is total. Even divorce will mean little to her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround

LongWalk said:


> John, your wife has an agile mind. She is slippery and certain of what she values. The very level of her conviction again suggests PA, not EA. without physical consummation, she would have been more on the defensive. Your struggle now is that she knows OM will not marry her. *She content to take what she can get. Her contempt for you is total. Even divorce will mean little to her*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It just dawned on me this is the same situation that Rhett Butler found himself in with Scarlet. HE finally left her.


----------



## ironman

russ101 said:


> I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can. I don't want to end a marriage if I am wrong about this! If I am right then I will tell her she goes NC with him ever. I will let you know when the poly is scheduled.


John my friend .. you don't appear to have much of a marriage to end. It's almost sexless, your wife appears to have no problem being groped by other men(and who knows what else) and is blatantly insulting/demeaning towards you. For god's sake, seriously, what is the point of remaining married to her? Because I don't see it.

Good luck with the poly .. at this point, I don't see why it matters anymore.


----------



## Blue Firefly

ironman said:


> John my friend .. you don't appear to have much of a marriage to end. It's almost sexless, your wife appears to have no problem being groped by other men(and who knows what else) and is blatantly insulting/demeaning towards you. For god's sake, seriously, what is the point of remaining married to her? Because I don't see it.
> 
> Good luck with the poly .. at this point, I don't see why it matters anymore.


+1

Forget the adultery and other man for the moment--just forget it--and think about this.

1) She told you she isn't in to you anymore. That's worse than saying she doesn't love you, that's saying she doesn't even like you as a friend; if she had her choice she wouldn't even hang out with you.

2) She told you she is stuck with you. That's the only think keeping her around at the moment. She's stuck...with you.

3) She told you she might become interested in you again if you made more money. Let that one sink in. She still wouldn't love you (or even like you), but she would hang around for money.

Based on the 3 items above, explain why you think there is any reason you should remain married.

The other man stuff is getting you sidetracked. It is keeping you from focusing on the core problem of your marriage, which are summed up in the 3 points above.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

I'm still trying to get over the "I'm not into you any more because you don't make enough coin".

Okay I understand the issues where a spouse physically changes drastically. I understand if a spouse has had a MAJOR change in personality. You're talking about two core issues of what attracted you to that person.

But MONEY?!?! Your wife is shallower than a puddle of dog piss.


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## warlock07

the problem is not that you are a wimp, but "she is taking you for a chump"..

She will be more affectionate if you make more money? There is actually a term for people who do that..

The word "materialistic" doesn't even cut it...


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## talin

Well the good news is that if you want her back all you gotta do is get a second job and start raking in that supplementary income. The bad news is that you'll be so busy working you won't have any time for sex even though she's going to want it since all that money will make you so much more attractive. 

I wonder what she'll do with the downtime?


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## LostViking

Gold-digger. 

Buy her a shovel and send her on her way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Madman1

A puddle of dog piss, too funny!

Dude you want unconditional love, that only comes from mommy.

Relationships are based on trust and respect, period!!!!

Do I have to repeat that for you?

You deserve better, you just dont believe that, wake up dude, draw some lines and walk if they are crossed.

If you will not respect yourself no one else will either.

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BobSimmons

Madman1 said:


> A puddle of dog piss, too funny!
> 
> Dude you want unconditional love, that only comes from mommy.
> 
> Relationships are based on trust and respect, period!!!!
> 
> Do I have to repeat that for you?
> 
> You deserve better, you just dont believe that, wake up dude, draw some lines and walk if they are crossed.
> 
> *If you will not respect yourself no one else will either.
> *
> Good luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This...

You don't respect yourself. She doesn't either.


----------



## Entropy3000

russ101 said:


> haven't been on in a few days and just read all of your responses and have to update you. My plan to trap her fell through because after reading wifes texts found out her ex boss was not coming back this weekend after all, but in 3 weeks. So we are still going to the waterpark with my wife. Had a few beers then decided to take some of your advice (for better or worse) and confront her with the story I had been told.
> 
> I told her that someone (would not say who, even though she kept asking) saw her the day of the party with the boss in the parking lot and that he had his hands on her leg for some time caressing her, and that she didn't push his hand away until he tried to move up her dress. I said then you left with him. How do you think that looks to me? Tell me now while you have the chance, did you sleep with him when you went back to his place, or did you ever do anything inappropriate with him?
> 
> She thought for about 5 seconds and then sighed and said, yes he did try something with me in the parking lot, but I did not let him keep his hand on my leg. As soon as he put it there, I pushed his hand away and said to him behave yourself, we are just friends. She said he was drunk because his girlfriend (I never knew he had one at the time) had just recently broken up with him and he was lonely and drunk. She said it was the only time in the entire time she spent with him that he ever tried anything. She said she followed him home and talked to him for about 5 minutes when they got there, then she came home. The time does match up.
> 
> I said that alone makes me uncomfortable with you talking and texting him like this. She said I swear I have never done anything with him other than talk, and give him a good bye hug when he left. If I wanted to be with him, I would have just left you and done that. I'm not like that! I said would you be willing to take a lie detector test and answer my questions about him? She said absolutley, but then you have to take a lie detector test and answer questions I have for you. She would not elaborate on the questions.
> 
> I said the amount of time you spend with him on the phone, texting, etc. and the fact that you don't want to have sex hardly ever anymore tells me that you are in at least an emotional affair with him. She said she never even heard the term, and after I explained it to her she said she didn't even believe that that was even an affair. She seems very adament about never being anything more than a friend with him, and since I cannot prove anything else, I have decided to actually go take her up on her offer to do the polygraph. Not sure who to contact though. I need to know one way or another whether she is telling me the truth or not. I am a little nervous about what she wants to ask me though on a polygraph (don't really have anything to hide though).
> 
> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. We ended up talking for a long time, and I never told her about the fact that I knew she was trying to get transferred back to his building because I didn't want to tell her I have been monitoring her. I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just scedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all.
> 
> I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can. I don't want to end a marriage if I am wrong about this! If I am right then I will tell her she goes NC with him ever. I will let you know when the poly is scheduled.


You should have used this discussion with her to force NC. I do not believe her BUT what you already know is enough. Him being drunk is not an excuse. The fact is that drinking merely lowers your inhibitions. So her boss caressed her thighs. You should believe your friend over her story now.

You not insisting on NC is accepting tht her boss caressed her leg. She wants to work for this guy. Hell to the no buckaroo.

Stop calling yourself a wimp. You have plenty to insist on NC. I would have enough to D.

Him doding this makes you uncomfortable? GMAFB. If it were I it would make this guy in the freaking hospital. No joke.


----------



## Entropy3000

chapparal said:


> Normally , we do not recommend talking to the om. However, if she passes the poly, call him and tell him what you heard, your wife admited it and if he ever touches or speaks disrespectfully to her again there is a Lousiville Slugger in his future.


Sequence problem here. Use the bat first. Then talk.


----------



## russ101

We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't. 

I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


----------



## BrockLanders

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


Is she still asking you questions at the poly?


----------



## LongWalk

Well, one question you can use to test the poly is "do you want to work in the same office with him?" Since you know this for a fact it will tell you whether she can beat the poly


----------



## LostViking

_Posted via Mobile Device_[/size

The very fact that she refuses to stop contact with a man who makes you uncomfortable speaks volumes about where you stand with her. 

She has zero respect for you. Do you think she cares a whit about that poly? She could care less if she passes or fails because she has checked out of the marriage.


----------



## Blue Firefly

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


Ummmm....isn't this the same woman that said she no longer loved you and felt stuck, but if you made more money she might start having feelings for you again?

Isn't the point of the poly to lay the groundwork for continuing your marriage? 

Am I missing something here?


----------



## jh52

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


Hello John --- anyone home ??

You are just stalling and stalling and not listening to what anyone is saying -- or refusing to face the facts.

You have her begging Phil to work for him again.
You have no sex life.
She has no respect for you.
She tells you to make more money -- then she will have sex with you.
She tells you she doesn't love you.

Who cares if she passes the POLY -- your marriage as it stands today is over. I believe in R and not D -- but your wife is in her own world with Phil ---maybe it's all in her mind -- but that is just it -- Phil is in her mind -- and you are not even an after thought. You can't fix this until you both recognize your marriage is in trouble. You refuse to recognize this and she is in her "Phil" denial.

Good luck with the POLY ---


----------



## t_hopper_2012

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


Among other things, you can expect to get grilled about your surveillance methods. I hope you are prepared to answer those questions.

Given how uncomfortable you are with "her+Phil", why wait for the poly to move forward with NC + new job?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. *I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job *(Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared?  H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


I have to assume your first question will be something like "Have you ever *had sex/physical contact with ANOTHER person? - Or cheated on me EVER?

I think you get 3 questions for $xxx.xx. Don't make them all specifically about the OM. You have bigger problem than just this guy.

When she does fail a question, do you really think that she's going to take the consequences that you give?...

I don't. I think she will do just the opposite of what you tell/want her to do. She's been walking all over you for years and you've been a raging beta the whole time.

I never liked it when poster tell an BS "man up", or "grow some balls". This is a first for me. MAN UP AND GROW A PAIR!

Your marriage could very well be over already. At least go out with your head held high. Tell her enough is enough.

If she doesn't listen, and I know that she won't, call her HR department and file a complaint. Tell them that the OM and your wife were having an inappropriate relationship when they last worked together. He's coming back and she's trying to get transferred, so that she can work for him again. Tell them that you have everything documented(even if you don't) and will continue to do so.

Make you stand. NOW. You keep drawing lines in the sand. She either has crossed them, or you have moved them out further. It hasn't worked in the past and it won't work now.


----------



## Chaparral

Where did the info come from that you only get three questions at a poly test? That would be nearly useless.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

russ101 said:


> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


She got caught talking to another man and you end up on the poly?

I knew there was something missing, with this story, when she suddenly decided to take the test. Now, I know. I'm praying you don't get nervous because that will be her out if you fail, get marked deceptive or the test is deemed inconclusive

Good luck dude.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

chapparal said:


> Where did the info come from that you only get three questions at a poly test? That would be nearly useless.


A few of the websites I have looked at state they ask three questions.


----------



## Suspecting

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


What questions are you going to ask?


----------



## theroad

russ101 said:


> If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. ............ I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, .................but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. .........................I know some of you think I am a whimp, but I really am doing the best I can.


1- Most men can not just go out and make more money. Your WW figures you can't so she makes you an offer you will not be able to meet. And you both ignore that a wifes love should not be based on how much money you make.

2- Pass or fail your WW let him grope her in public, then take off with him. And you know he was all over her leg for a long time and you let her get away lying saying it was only a momment and she made him stop right away. WW and OM can never work for the same comapny again. Forget separate buildings.

3- You need to man up.


----------



## EleGirl

russ101 said:


> We have a poly all set up for next Friday. I told her I am going to ask her about a dozen yes or no questions. If she fails any of them, she either goes NC with Phil and has 60 days to find another job (Phil will not be working in the same building as her, alithough she sent another text to him asking again if there was any way she could somehow get transfered to his building). I am just done with this one way or another. Am I scared? H*** yes I am! But I have decided to just find out one way or another. I don't think she will quit her job even if she fails the test, so I have to be prepared to file if she doesn't.
> 
> I am going to get on the poly once she is done, and she can then ask me anything she wants. I can't think of anything I have done that is too bad, so I agreed to it. I'll let you all know what happens next week. By the way, am starting to read MMSL and it is a very good read so far. Pray for us!


Are you aware that even the best done poly is wrong 25% of the time? IMO they are a waste of money because of this.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

chapparal said:


> Where did the info come from that you only get three questions at a poly test? That would be nearly useless.


That's what I've heard. I've never taken, or had one preformed, so I may be wrong.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

EleGirl said:


> Are you aware that even the best done poly is wrong 25% of the time? IMO they are a waste of money because of this.


Even if this is accurate, just having the WS worrying about taking one is worth the effort.

I don't think she will take it anyway. She's walked all over this guy for years. She's pretty confident that he'll back down, or she'll talk him out of it before hand.

She will either keep heaping more consequences on to the OP, if she passes, that he'll back down, OR she'll start an argument with him, go ballistic and tell him she won't take it the test anymore because he p1ssed her off.

Mark my words.


----------



## jnj express

This is not about you, unless you cheated---why are you allowing her to have any say in anything------and bringing you into the picture

If she wants to stay in the mge---she does all the heavy lifting, if that includes a poly---so be it,----THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE YOU TAKING A POLY----you are letting her manipulate, and casting doubt/blame onto you---and taking the heat off of yourself

You have the poly, and you want the answers, so I guess you will go ahead with what has been set up---I just don't understand, why you are bending to her will----or have you forgotten, that party, a few yrs ago, where she CHOSE HIM OVER YOU AND THE KIDS---and where she has also stayed in contact, with her lover, to the detriment of her family.

If there is any kind of deviation on you, as to her expected answers---she levels the playing field, she deflects your attack, and SHE F'ing STAYS IN HER A., and any thing you say, she will just bring the poly results down on your head.

What do you want, out of all of this---cuz what you are doing certainly ain't working toward a proper R, and it certainly is NOT ACCOMPLISHING the goal of getting her LOVER OUT OF YOUR MGE.


----------



## Dyokemm

I think her insisting that you do a poly as well is an indirect attempt by her to get you to back off the demand.

I think she was hoping you would drop the demand out of fear of being caught out to her in your own poly.

That has obviously failed. Do not be surprised if she attempts to refuse to go at the last minute, or even tries to avoid the test by giving you a small confession/part of the truth just before the appointment in the hope you will not proceed with the actual test. Then get ready for a long trickle truth battle.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think she is trying to manage this whole situation and is desperately trying to maintain the status quo.

And I still think you are making a major mistake even considering to allow her any contact with POS, regardless of any test result.

This man was seen TRYING TO FONDLE your wife in public. Even if she is as pure as the driven snow, which I seriously doubt, this scum should go. And if she can't see that and agree with you she has serious problems.


----------



## LongWalk

EleGirl said:


> Are you aware that even the best done poly is wrong 25% of the time? IMO they are a waste of money because of this.


I don't know much about polygraphs, but I assume that they only reveal physiological signs that could caused by anxiety. Your wife isn't very anxious about lying to you. I assume that will help her to beat the poly if that is possible.

John, you can only D your wife ASAP. Even if Phil rejects her, she is not going love you. It has been a long time now since she had any feelings for you, other than studied disregard.


----------



## LongWalk

Dyokemm said:


> I hope I'm wrong, but I think she is trying to manage this whole situation and is desperately trying to maintain the status quo.


Why do you think she desperate?


----------



## Chaparral

She doesn't want to let go of one branch before she grabs another one. She can't wait for om to show up and get some excitement back into her life.

OP, did you read MMSLP?


----------



## Dyokemm

Hey John,

How are you doing?

Any updates on the situation?


----------



## Jonesey

Dyokemm said:


> Hey John,
> 
> How are you doing?
> 
> Any updates on the situation?



I was wondering the same..Any updates?


----------



## russ101

Not really in the mood to talk right now, but I will give all of you an update since you all did take the time to respond. We were all set to go to get a polygraph yesterday (5 minutes before we were to leave in fact), and she told me she had something to tell me. We sat down and she tearfully told me the following:

She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days. She said she thought at the time she was falling in love with him and we were on the verge of divorce (which was true at the time), and on the second to last day there, she slept with him. She said they only did it once and the next morning they realized that they made a huge mistake and they should never speak about it again. She swears that it was the only time they ever did anything, including kissing. That time at the party he was trying for one last fling since he was leaving. She sobbed uncontrollablly and told me they really are just friends that made one huge mistake.

There is more, but I am numb right now and am just taking this all in. I don't know what I am going to do, but I do know if I decide to stay with her, she has to quit her job. No if ands or buts about it, and go NC. Not really sure if I want to stay at this point though. Everyone on here was right. I feel like such an idiot.


----------



## GutPunch

Don't do anything now.

Take your time to process.

You are not an idiot as we here
on TAM have all been there.

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

russ101 said:


> She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days.


Sorry that it had to come out like this.

But my gut feeling, based on the timelines of your story and how she treated you in the past, is that there is more....


----------



## bfree

russ101 said:


> Not really in the mood to talk right now, but I will give all of you an update since you all did take the time to respond. We were all set to go to get a polygraph yesterday (5 minutes before we were to leave in fact), and she told me she had something to tell me. We sat down and she tearfully told me the following:
> 
> She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days. She said she thought at the time she was falling in love with him and we were on the verge of divorce (which was true at the time), and on the second to last day there, she slept with him. She said they only did it once and the next morning they realized that they made a huge mistake and they should never speak about it again. She swears that it was the only time they ever did anything, including kissing. That time at the party he was trying for one last fling since he was leaving. She sobbed uncontrollablly and told me they really are just friends that made one huge mistake.
> 
> There is more, but I am numb right now and am just taking this all in. I don't know what I am going to do, but I do know if I decide to stay with her, she has to quit her job. No if ands or buts about it, and go NC. Not really sure if I want to stay at this point though. Everyone on here was right. I feel like such an idiot.


I'm so sorry that you have been given conformation of your fears. It truly sucks to be where you are right now. I know because I've been there. But most of us saw it coming precisely because we've been there. Even if we hammered you a little please understand its because we knew what you'd be facing. And now you are. Sorry your wife has granted you membership in our club.

You're not an idiot. You just love your wife. Cut yourself some slack. Now you need to understand that there may be more. It is possible, frankly very possible, that this is an ongoing affair and she just told you what she did to derail the polygraph and satisfy your "curiosity." It would be very unlikely, given human nature, that they would remain this friendly or that her attachment to him would be this strong if her story was true.

One thing this does give you is that you now have the ability to demand things like she quit her job. And you MUST hold to that demand. There is no wiggle room and no debate. If she doesn't quit her job there can be no marriage with you. Also, you now need to demand transparency so that you can verify that she is not having an ongoing affair with him regardless of what she claims. You can feel free to do any spying you see fit because she has obviously lied to you for years and withheld crucial marital information. So if you choose to put a VAR under the seat in her car then you have every right to do so without guilt. If you should feel a need to put a keystroke monitor on her computer then so be it.

Expect her to continue to fight you at every turn if she is not remorseful. And for her to come clean at the last minute before a poly that does not seem overly remorseful to me. Now you will begin to see exactly how your wife feels about you and the marriage. This is when you need to take control of the wheel and steer the marriage where it needs to go. Don't hesitate, be strong.


----------



## Shaggy

You are not an idiot. You are a good man who gave your love and trust to someone who chose to betray it and to lie to you.

If you decide to try to R, then I strongly suggest that you follow through with the polygraph. Not just because you need to see if this is really the whole story, but also to demonstrate to her that you at this point cannot trust her even al little.


----------



## Shaggy

And I'm sorry to say, that based on her behavior all these years, there is very likely more times because clearly he didn't think it was a mistake to never be repeated, he clearly has viewed her all along as a romantic partner.

This is demonstrated by the shear amount of time he puts into his relationship with her, and that when he is given the opportunity will make moves on her. And what woman be best friends with a guy who was putting the moves on her every opportunity, unless she went along with it.

I would be calling HR at the company and notifying them that you've discovered an ongoing sexual affair with her and him that dates back to when he was he boss. Inform them that you are considering with your lawyer what action you may take against the company and that you will be considering their response to this notice in you decision making.

I'm betting that she told him before she told you that she was going to tell you, or she called him 5 minutes later,


----------



## movin on

I would be calling HR at the company and notifying them that you've discovered an ongoing sexual affair with her and him that dates back to when he was he boss. Inform them that you are considering with your lawyer what action you may take against the company and that you will be considering their response to this notice in you decision making.



This should be done now. Hopefully he gets fired for banging your wife.god knows he should
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

I would be demanding she hand over her cell phone and I would be blocking access to each and every way she uses to communicate with him. 

From this moment on he is either dead to her, or she is out the door forever.

Do not forget to post him on cheaterville.com


----------



## Acabado

russ101 said:


> She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days. She said she thought at the time she was falling in love with him and we were on the verge of divorce (which was true at the time), and on the second to last day there, she slept with him. She said they only did it once and the next morning they realized that they made a huge mistake and they should never speak about it again. She swears that it was the only time they ever did anything, including kissing. That time at the party he was trying for one last fling since he was leaving. She sobbed uncontrollablly and told me they really are just friends that made one huge mistake.


Well that was the classic parking lot confession. Of course there's more, you sould follow through with the poly anyway. It's just the start of all this.

I'm sorry your worse fears were just confirmed.
Many, many things start to make sense now. Right?
I'd wait for a while to make life altering decisions. Friend you are in an horible marriage for years, you stayed anyway. Maybe, just maybe it beomes the wake up call to give your family a last shot if you feel capable to endure the rollercoaster.

Maybe the only "good" which comes with this is you can now positively deamand complete NC with the POS. There's not such a thing as remaining "just friends" with former affair partner. No way.
Deep down she knows that after this (very minimized, sugarcoated) version of the events there's no way back, that NC is a must if she wants the marriage to survive.
Make your demands, the bare minimum conditions to stop you from filing tomorrow morning. Tell her you are not stuck with her anymore, its up to her to fix this continued betrayal, the EA is ongoing as long as she's not NC with OM.

Make your demands:
NC letter
Transparence from now on
Full disclosure (To back up with the poly anyway) including poeple who knows (and their role).
STD test ,MC, IC, getting rid of reminders, mementoes, gifts, pictures..., medical help?.

Tell her to seek advice on how to fix this.


----------



## warlock07

russ101 said:


> Not really in the mood to talk right now, but I will give all of you an update since you all did take the time to respond. We were all set to go to get a polygraph yesterday (5 minutes before we were to leave in fact), and she told me she had something to tell me. We sat down and she tearfully told me the following:
> 
> She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days. She said she thought at the time she was falling in love with him and we were on the verge of divorce (which was true at the time), and on the second to last day there, she slept with him. She said they only did it once and the next morning they realized that they made a huge mistake and they should never speak about it again. She swears that it was the only time they ever did anything, including kissing. That time at the party he was trying for one last fling since he was leaving. She sobbed uncontrollablly and told me they really are just friends that made one huge mistake.
> 
> There is more, but I am numb right now and am just taking this all in. I don't know what I am going to do, but I do know if I decide to stay with her, she has to quit her job. No if ands or buts about it, and go NC. Not really sure if I want to stay at this point though. Everyone on here was right. I feel like such an idiot.


The trickle truth starts. Until now, she was defiant that she never did anything with him, even a kiss. Now she gave you the minimum that would get you off her back. The poly was cancelled, right ? Reschedule it. Funny thing, most of TAM knows that polys can definitely be inaccurate but it is usually the parking lot confessions that usually reveal more than the polygraph itself.

No way it was once, considering how frequently they were talking and how involved with one another they were. You should have asked to call the OM at the same instant in front of you and verify the fact("My Husband now knows about us and wants to know how many times we had sex.") Even if it seems silly, the question itself should force her to confess more because of the nature of it.


----------



## warlock07

And tell her you won't dump her if she makes more money and gives it to you completely.../s


----------



## warlock07

> she then said look, I have told you the reasons why I'm not really into sex anymore already (hormones declining and resentment about our finances). It has NOTHING to do with Phil. I know we have our problems, but were stuck together. We got married, I don't take that lightly. If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc. We ended up talking for a long time, and I never told her about the fact that I knew she was trying to get transferred back to his building because I didn't want to tell her I have been monitoring her. I simply said, If you pass the polygraph, then I will be ok with you being friends with him, but I will not be ok with you two working together in the same building. You need to respect that. She ended the conversation with ok just scedule the poly so you can stop talking about this once and for all.


Yeah right


----------



## Shaggy

The reason she isn't into sex is that it would be her cheating on the OM with you. Even if they've been physical apart, except for when his business trips have brought turn back together, is that she's been emotionally dedicating herself to him for years.


----------



## LongWalk

At last! What a relief for you. All the hard posts, pushing to act. You have shown courage. You have won back some sanity even if it has been painful.

Is her job the issue? Maybe. If she wants to quit it to work on your marriage, that wouldn't be bad. But it's really the lack of love and affection that are the key missing element.

This thread must hold some sort of record for something. I must admit I almost unsubscribed at one point. I apologize for my moment of doubt in you.


----------



## jh52

russ101 said:


> An anwser to Nature Dave:
> 
> Our sex life was great until about 6 years ago, when it has slowly dwindled down to almost nothing now. She blames this on hormones, or lack of them since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to.


Sorry you are going through this John -- but at least you know it was a PA. Funny she said they only had sex once -- but you wrote the above quote in one of your 1st posts. You sex life stopped because she has cheated on you for the last 6 years -- in a physical sense (sex) and an emotional sense (her heart).

Now comes the trickle truth. We only had sex once. What a load of BS. That's why she spent all her time working long hours, dressing sexy to work, now wants to work for him again, wants to lose weight. She and Phil talked -- maybe check your VAR and got the story straight that they only has sex once.

At the moment -- whenever she talks -- she will tell you a lie. 

No suggestion on whether you should file for D or try and Reconcile -- but if you try and reconcile -- she needs to do all the work. She has withheld sex from you because she felt she was cheating on Phil. For 6 years she wanted Phil. Maybe you should leave the kids with someone to get them out of the house -- have her call Phil on a speaker phone -- and tell him he has won -- she is all his -- then hand her the divorce papers.

6 years out of the 22 years married to you, she has been with Phil. That's time you will never get back. That's 27% of your marriage she was in an affair with Phil.

Good luck whatever you decide -- but I am sure you don't even know the beginning of the truth. Better be prepared -- because having slept with Phil only once in 6 years is totally not believable.

BTW -- you can never go back to being just friends once you cross that line. Another load of BS she is telling you, IMO.


----------



## Rollin

Dude she's still bsing you.

Literally right before the poly she tells you so that she doesn't have to answer possibly more incriminating questions.

Who knows the true extent of the affair now, but it doesn't really matter at this point. If you choose to reconcile, I suggest you poly first, but now that you know it was a PA anyway I'd think twice about going back to her


----------



## Openminded

It isn't uncommon for cheaters to agree to a poly and then panic just beforehand and tell the "real story" --- or part of it. 

The true number is likely not just once.


----------



## NextTimeAround

If you cancel a poly at the last minute, are you still charged?


----------



## JCD

Well, I was wrong.

Think hard about what you want in life. Get your finances secured (including a retainer for an attorney) get that poly rescheduled.

I would hold off on HR. He is at another company (?). IF you decide to divorce, she'll need a job. So you are caught in a cleft stick: if you R, she needs to quit. If you D, she needs to stay...but the POS will be back soon.

So you need a stopgap while you put your head on straight.

Full access to phone records. Full access to emails and FB. Put in that VAR. Tell her that if you find an unfamiliar phone, it's all over but the crying.

Oh...and she has to eat ice cream every night...

Dispose of all those sexy clothes. Let her burn them in the barbeque. Some of those clothes have memories in them...

Get rid of the sexy business suits. Ask her what gifts he gave her. The perfume she wore for him. The memntos.

You know what to do with them.


----------



## FlyingThePhoenix

Hello John,

*I’m so sorry you are here but at last you have what you’ve been looking for the, TRUTH!* But brace yourself because I think there’s a lot more to come from your cheating wife.




russ101 said:


> Not really in the mood to talk right now, but I will give all of you an update since you all did take the time to respond. We were all set to go to get a polygraph yesterday (5 minutes before we were to leave in fact), and she told me she had something to tell me. We sat down and she tearfully told me the following:
> 
> She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days. She said she thought at the time she was falling in love with him and we were on the verge of divorce (which was true at the time), and on the second to last day there, she slept with him. She said they only did it once and the next morning they realized that they made a huge mistake and they should never speak about it again. She swears that it was the only time they ever did anything, including kissing. That time at the party he was trying for one last fling since he was leaving. She sobbed uncontrollablly and told me they really are just friends that made one huge mistake.
> 
> 
> *Your wife has shown you no true guilt or remorse over the years and has been emotionally connecting with her OM (her boss) all that time that’s why you sex life is rare. You asked her in post#1 and her response was:*
> *“She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you!” She lied to YOU all these years.*
> 
> There is more, but I am numb right now and am just taking this all in. I don't know what I am going to do, but I do know if I decide to stay with her, she has to quit her job. No if ands or buts about it, and go NC. Not really sure if I want to stay at this point though. Everyone on here was right. *I feel like such an idiot*.
> 
> *Those that have morals and stick by them are NOT idiots, those like your wife are idiots because they flushed their moral's down the gutter.*



I’ll say it again, *NO TRUE GUILT and NO TRUE REMORSE until you caught her out with the going through with the Polygraph.* Take your time and process all the information she has given you and demand a complete truth-time line of everything from the start to yesterday.

One thing is for sure* YOU MUST*:

*1.* Expose this lying POSOM (Her Boss) to the whole company.
*2.* Family / friends.
*3.* Get test for ALL STD’s.
*4.* Ask her if the kids are yours, why, because she’s such a DAM good liar for all these years. Get a DNA test done anyway for your piece of mind.
*5.* NC, access to ALL email/phone records.
*6.* She must quit her JOB ASAP!

_My mind’s gone blank now…._ But, after all these years of lying to your face, you can consider “*R*”, *GOOD LUCK TO YOU!* *I couldn’t, I’d rather be FREE of such a liar. *

One more thing, your wife had an affair and then become best friends with her POSOM (BOSS), Really?

*I don't think so......................

*


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Sorry for you John,

But it has been for years going on, prepare for more.



russ101 said:


> An anwser to Nature Dave:
> *Our sex life was great until about 6 years ago*, when it has slowly dwindled down to almost nothing now. She blames this on hormones, or lack of them since she is pre menopausel. If I ask her enough times, she will give in once a month or so, but I have recently stopped asking her since when whe do have it, it is nothing like it used to be. She just lays there while I go at it, and after about 5 minutes claims that I need to hurry up and finish. No more kissing or anything like that. This is one of the points that we have been arguing about for the last 6 years. I don't really want sex like that, so I rarely ask her anymore. She claims she cant help it, she just doen't have the desire for sex like she used to.





russ101 said:


> *About 4 years ago my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me.* I asked her, are you? and she denied it completely, saying it was a couple of ladies that didn't like her, and because she did spend alot of time with her boss they were just gossiping. She has always been very against anyone that was cheating on their spouse and would always comment on how wrong it was, etc. The call never came and I just took her at her word.


3 years ago he went, then she changed her clothing. Indicating not a 'just friends relation'. 

Multiple years...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Sorry dude.

When you calm down, to the best you can, you should just read your posts. No one else, but your own. Go back and look at how you stood up for your wife. Look at all of the positives you did, even arguing with members here who knew better. 

Then remember how she crapped on you for being an honorable and respectful husband. Do this even if you R, it shows you aren't stupid, but a good man full of love for his wife. That isn't stupid, it was naivete. Many of us were naive when we came to TAM. You are SUPPOSED to trust your wife over random idiots, no offense to anyone, on a message board

You did her right, now it is time for her to do you right.

Edit:
Well, SLL beat me to the very first section I wanted you to read. 
6 years ago she had an affair.
6 years ago your sex life became basically non-existent.
6 years ago she stopped cheating on her man.

Sorry, you became the other man.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

John, I'm very sorry. 

I think we all knew there was more and I think you did too. You just wanted some real proof and I don't blame you for that. Sounds like you love your wife and you didn't want to throw it all away on a hunch.

You said there's more. I imagine there is. And as you yourself probably suspect, she hasn't told you everything that went on between her and Phil.

Most likely she's trickle-truthing you. She told you all she can deal with for now, but all the facts point to more.


Please be prepared, you seem to have your eyes open now and you have an idea what to do. NC and quitting her job is the LEAST of what she has to do.

I wish you all the best in a very hard situation my friend and I wait to hear what else you have to say before giving you any advice.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Russ101/John,

I don't know what you are planning on doing now. I strongly suggest that you do the opposite of what you would "normally" do in this situation.

No more Mr. Nice Guy. It's "My way, or the Highway" time.

I'd file for D on Monday morning. If she starts doing ALL the heavy lifting in the next 6 months for a R, then put the D on hold.

I get the feeling that she'll be nice to you for a little while, then go right back to where she was before Dday.

You aren't going to nice her out of this and back into your arms John.

It's time to be a pr1ck John. Expose the affair. Monitor your WS's every means of contact to OM. File for D, Monday.

OR, you could stick your head in the sand some more, but look where that has gotten you so far.

Maybe you should think, what would "Phil" do in my situation?...

If you're getting p1ssed at me, that's the point. GET P1SSED! You've put up with this sh1t faaar tooo looong. Put your foot down! Make a stand! If she leaves, I have news for you, she's been gone for years.

If she decides to stay. It'll be on your terms. By your rules! If you don't stand up for yourself now, you're only prolonging the inevitable - Divorce(and probably after she cheats some more).


----------



## EleGirl

John, I'm sorry. This is a huge bummer. Don't make any huge decisions right now. Give yourself time.


----------



## Thound

She may have told you it was 1 time so she wouldnt have to do the polygraph. I would schedule another one if yall didnt go. JMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BobSimmons

Why didn't you go through with the poly? It's funny that five minutes before the poly she fesses up..but it's only once right?
My guess, if you schedule another poly and actually go through with it you'll find they did a whole lot more than just once.
Truth is out but in trickle form


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BobSimmons said:


> Why didn't you go through with the poly?


It was smart to wait, he only had three questions. That one admission probably answered them all. Now, he can decide if he wants to spend money on details or demand answers for free.


----------



## akashNil

Sorry you had to go through that crap like this. You have been a kind, loving person, and your WW has taken the maximum advantage of it (Just like my own WW). 

Like others have said, don't take any decision for a few days. If you are a religious person, pray. Pray for mental peace and guidance. It helped me during my worse time.

And then, take every decision with a strong willpower. On your own terms. (I am 100% sure this was not a one time PA. It was a very regular event for them. The only break was during his transfer.)

One learning (again) is that - Poly may or may not work, but THREAT OF POLY DOES WONDERS!!!


----------



## walkonmars

I agree with everyone else. She says "she thought she loved him six years ago" WRONG... it's a lie. She has loved him all along. Still does. She's trying to protect him now. She knows you have cards you can play that will hurt him financially and in his career. 

I think it's plain to see she'll say anything - admit to "long ago small-things" to throw you off track and maybe even suggest an amicable split. It's all a ploy to protect that scumbag. 

Don't fall for any of this. You'll survive. It's a pity you have to wade through tons of her garbage in order to get a few small truths.


----------



## CEL

So I agree with everyone here, it has happened for a long long time probably years. It is still ongoing and she is protecting him, watch her cell phone I bet she gives him a heads up. So here is what I would do.


1: See a lawyer and get his advice on who it would go in divorce. This is for your information so that you know what to expect given this outcome even if you are hardcore R.

2: Place some paper and pen in front of her and tell her that you need a truthful account and time line. That all this information will be verified by a poly call the place while she is writing so she knows you are serious. Make it known if she lies you will D with no more questions this is her last chance and you are only doing it for the child.

3: Once both the timeline and the poly are done then and ONLY then can you start to really think about what you want to do. Until you have the truth anything you do will be built on lies, resentment and I don't knows. At this point just focus on the truth and getting both the timeline and the poly even if she comes clean go through with it just for YOUR piece of mind.


Keep in mind a few things.

1: This has been going on for YEARS.

2: They have had sex dozens of times.

3: The lies she told will number in the hundreds maybe thousands.

4: She betrayed her vows.

5: She choose the OM over you and treated you like shyte because it made her guilt less. She believed is it you fault for not making more money that is why she is attracted to the other man this is one of her rationalizations.

6: She choose the OM over you kid.

7: She has betrayed an implicit trust that you gave her.

8: When you wanted sex she thought of it as cheating on the OM.

9: When you were taking care of the kids she was bent over his desk.

10: When she came home she was freshly fvcked while you had to rub one out.

11: She exposed you to STD's:

12: She got in shape for him, dressed nice for him.

13: She did not always use a condom so when she came home he was still in her. Remember any times where she went to the bathroom right away for a shower.

14: She is only sorry she got caught, not for hurting you she could of come clean at any time in the years past she always choose her selfish affair over you and the kid.

15: She was going to start it right back up again and keep doing it, all the above would of gone on for YEARS.

This is the women you are dealing with not who you married here is the realty someone who can do this. Forget what you thought you knew about her and her character it was a shame a lie nothing more than smoke and mirrors stripped away here it is the reality.


----------



## treyvion

CEL said:


> So I agree with everyone here, it has happened for a long long time probably years. It is still ongoing and she is protecting him, watch her cell phone I bet she gives him a heads up. So here is what I would do.
> 
> 
> 1: See a lawyer and get his advice on who it would go in divorce. This is for your information so that you know what to expect given this outcome even if you are hardcore R.
> 
> 2: Place some paper and pen in front of her and tell her that you need a truthful account and time line. That all this information will be verified by a poly call the place while she is writing so she knows you are serious. Make it known if she lies you will D with no more questions this is her last chance and you are only doing it for the child.
> 
> 3: Once both the timeline and the poly are done then and ONLY then can you start to really think about what you want to do. Until you have the truth anything you do will be built on lies, resentment and I don't knows. At this point just focus on the truth and getting both the timeline and the poly even if she comes clean go through with it just for YOUR piece of mind.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind a few things.
> 
> 1: This has been going on for YEARS.
> 
> 2: They have had sex dozens of times.
> 
> 3: The lies she told will number in the hundreds maybe thousands.
> 
> 4: She betrayed her vows.
> 
> 5: She choose the OM over you and treated you like shyte because it made her guilt less. She believed is it you fault for not making more money that is why she is attracted to the other man this is one of her rationalizations.
> 
> 6: She choose the OM over you kid.
> 
> 7: She has betrayed an implicit trust that you gave her.
> 
> 8: When you wanted sex she thought of it as cheating on the OM.
> 
> 9: When you were taking care of the kids she was bent over his desk.
> 
> 10: When she came home she was freshly fvcked while you had to rub one out.
> 
> 11: She exposed you to STD's:
> 
> 12: She got in shape for him, dressed nice for him.
> 
> 13: She did not always use a condom so when she came home he was still in her. Remember any times where she went to the bathroom right away for a shower.
> 
> 14: She is only sorry she got caught, not for hurting you she could of come clean at any time in the years past she always choose her selfish affair over you and the kid.
> 
> 15: She was going to start it right back up again and keep doing it, all the above would of gone on for YEARS.
> 
> This is the women you are dealing with not who you married here is the realty someone who can do this. Forget what you thought you knew about her and her character it was a shame a lie nothing more than smoke and mirrors stripped away here it is the reality.


Now that you have the reality, do you have your mental clarity yet? Someone who has been lying that long and that decisively is not going to quit all at once, it would be a MIRACLE.

All I ask is you have integrity and honor to yourself, respect yourself.


----------



## alte Dame

I'm so, so sorry that this turned out this way.

You know, John, she has treated you like a chump for a very long time. She has faced you down and lied like a rug for years.

Now that you aren't backing down, the tears start to flow. It's interesting what a little backbone will do.

I really am very sorry. You know that this is the tip of the iceberg. You know that. She's been managing you for at least six years. Now it's your turn to 'manage' the truth out of her. Reschedule the poly. Without it, you can't begin to know how to proceed.


----------



## Shaggy

So those sexy clothes she stopped wearing when he left town? You now have proof they were sexy for him, and never ever for you.

If it was me, I'd be gather those clothes, shoes, etc tomorrow and dumping them all off at goodwill for the tax deduction, because that's all the benefit you will ever get from them.

Had she already begun shopping for her new sexy wardrobe to welcome him home yet? You should include that in the donation as well.


----------



## LongWalk

Ask to dress up in the sexy clothes and do strip tease for you, when it is done, then put them in black garbage bag.


----------



## LongWalk

CEL said:


> So I agree with everyone here, it has happened for a long long time probably years. It is still ongoing and she is protecting him, watch her cell phone I bet she gives him a heads up. So here is what I would do.
> 
> 
> 1: See a lawyer and get his advice on who it would go in divorce. This is for your information so that you know what to expect given this outcome even if you are hardcore R.
> 
> 2: Place some paper and pen in front of her and tell her that you need a truthful account and time line. That all this information will be verified by a poly call the place while she is writing so she knows you are serious. Make it known if she lies you will D with no more questions this is her last chance and you are only doing it for the child.
> 
> 3: Once both the timeline and the poly are done then and ONLY then can you start to really think about what you want to do. Until you have the truth anything you do will be built on lies, resentment and I don't knows. At this point just focus on the truth and getting both the timeline and the poly even if she comes clean go through with it just for YOUR piece of mind.
> 
> 
> Keep in mind a few things.
> 
> 1: This has been going on for YEARS.
> 
> 2: They have had sex dozens of times.
> 
> 3: The lies she told will number in the hundreds maybe thousands.
> 
> 4: She betrayed her vows.
> 
> 5: She choose the OM over you and treated you like shyte because it made her guilt less. She believed is it you fault for not making more money that is why she is attracted to the other man this is one of her rationalizations.
> 
> 6: She choose the OM over you kid.
> 
> 7: She has betrayed an implicit trust that you gave her.
> 
> 8: When you wanted sex she thought of it as cheating on the OM.
> 
> 9: When you were taking care of the kids she was bent over his desk.
> 
> 10: When she came home she was freshly fvcked while you had to rub one out.
> 
> 11: She exposed you to STD's:
> 
> 12: She got in shape for him, dressed nice for him.
> 
> 13: She did not always use a condom so when she came home he was still in her. Remember any times where she went to the bathroom right away for a shower.
> 
> 14: She is only sorry she got caught, not for hurting you she could of come clean at any time in the years past she always choose her selfish affair over you and the kid.
> 
> 15: She was going to start it right back up again and keep doing it, all the above would of gone on for YEARS.
> 
> This is the women you are dealing with not who you married here is the realty someone who can do this. Forget what you thought you knew about her and her character it was a shame a lie nothing more than smoke and mirrors stripped away here it is the reality.


Cruel. But probably true. Ask if the one time they had sex was unsatisfying. How many orgasms did she have? How many times did he get it up? How many hours of sleep did they have? She no doubt remembers that breakfast with him as one of the most delicious. They must have been very hungry.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

I don't know if I agree with everything CEL mentioned but I do think that enough of it is probably true: the trickle-truthing, the blatant lies, her complete emotional investment in him leaving nothing for you, her callous dismissal of your needs and wants for hers and for Phil.

I know you have a lot of deal with OP, but the betrayal here is pretty bad because of the way she's dictated all the terms in your marriage and given you next to nothing except for a mother for your kids. She has ignored you in some of the most contemptible ways.

One thing I noticed about her confession: no where did she ever say that she loved you. I get the impression that she never does and hasn't said so for a long time.

All those things she said about you two being "stuck with each other" and that's the only reason for her to stay married. God, does that woman ever have gall.

I'm only glad that you've found out, now it's your turn to call the shots and take control of the situation. Don't put up with her crap or any attempt at blame-shifting. 

You have to decide how you feel about this by yourself. There are so many deal-breakers here that I see, it's hard for me to imagine how you can get past them all. But it's you that's in this situation, not me, and all I can do is hope you do the right thing for yourself and not let her step all over you anymore.


----------



## BobSimmons

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It was smart to wait, he only had three questions. That one admission probably answered them all. Now, he can decide if he wants to spend money on details or demand answers for free.


She only confessed because she knew she was about to be busted by the poly. He got the confession that they slept together but she only confessed to the one time when there is a high probability that there were more encounters. She probably got what she wanted by cancelling the poly, there was a confession but I think it's merely damage limitation and he's just scratched the surface. If it is damage limitations she wont volunteer the answers for free most likely sticking to her story of it only happened once.

He was in control, she was floundering because she wasn't, by "confessing" she has established some control over the situation, he will now come to her with the questions and she will most likely trickle truth him but it will all be within her control. He has to gain total control again. Which is why I asked whether he went through with the poly and why he should still go for it. He needs total control.


----------



## torn2012

John, very sorry you're going through this. It might be hard reading some of the tough love the TAM community is dishing up but you need to see things for what they really are. Your wife is a complete a-hole and it's good that you're finally standing up for yourself.

Things seem worse than ever right now but there is a silver lining on this dark cloud. YOU ARE NO LONGER TRAPPED A SHAM OF A MARRIAGE! You can walk away from this guilt free and as long as you let the whole world know what your cheating, lying, manipulating Btch of a wife did. No one will stand in your way and she will have to deal with the shame and humiliation she deserves. Even your kids will understand in time.

The even better news is that there are lots of good honest women out there who would never do such cruel things to you. Women who appreciate a good man without the false "hormone problems".

If you choose to D, and I think you should because you deserve better, There is a real possibility of happiness for you. 

The fallout will be difficult, absolutely. But just imagine yourself finding a woman who ignites passion in you again. Someone who wants to have amazing sex with you (often!) and just glows in your presence. All those wonderful feelings you feel when you meet that someone special is within reach for you.

The choice between D and R is easy when you consider it's a choice between the possibility I just described and living with someone who treats you like sht, fks other men behind your back and will always have you wondering if she's cheating again.

Whatever you choose, I wish you well.


----------



## Will_Kane

*"If you want me to be into you again, you need to make more money etc."*

Based on not finding content related to recent hookups, and the physical distance between them, I don't think the physical affair was ongoing.

I do believe that they had sex more than once, way more than once, while they worked together all those years. And that your wife still is in love with other man. 

With or without sex, it's obvious that she was and still is "into" other man. But she told you she isn't "into" you because you don't make enough money.


----------



## bfree

Maybe now would be a good time to stop using your neighbor's computer to post and start using your own. After all it's out in the open that she cheated on you. It's just a matter of frequency and duration. The posters here at TAM have a lot of valuable insight they could be sharing but it's difficult when there is little interaction from you. We're all here for support. Let us help you.


----------



## Will_Kane

russ101 said:


> my wife is very computer savy and I am not
> 
> My wife and I are both 47 and have been married for 22 years, with two children (18, and 12).
> 
> Most of our downs throughout our marriage have been about money. I have worked in the same office for 18 years, and am happy, but only make about $50,000 a year. My wife never wanted to work, but she said she was forced to when I wouldn't go out and get another job that paid more (jobs in my field were hard to come by that paid more, and I never really looked that hard).
> 
> she went to work in a very large company back in 04, and moved up the ladder fairly quickly.
> 
> she would be at work until 7-8:00 at night most days (Her normal work day ends at 5:00) and start working from home on the computer as soon as she finished dinner. If you knew my wife, this was normal behavior.
> 
> About *4 years ago (the admitted one night stand happened 6 years ago) *my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me. I asked her, are you? and she denied it completely.
> 
> After this revelation, I did a little investigating and found out that *she was talking to her boss every night on her phone, always when she was out of the house shopping, or after I had gone to bed. * I flipped out and asked her what could she possibly be talking about with him every night. *She told me she and had become very close friends and talked on the phone just like she would with any other friend. She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you.*
> 
> *In 2010 he was transferred to another state, and my wife was devastated. * It was as if a family member died. *She continued to talk to him at least once every other day at night*, and I did hear one conversation with him where *she told him while crying how she missed him*.
> 
> Just before my wife's boss transferred out of state, The company has a massive party at one of the CEO's home on a large estate. My friend saw my wife come up to his car standing beside his open door and they talked for a couple of minutes, then he said *the boss put his hand on my wifes leg just around the knee and started slowly caressing her leg and she just kept talking to him. He said this went on for at least a couple of minutes*, after a couple of minutes her boss started working his hand up her thigh under her dress, and she pulled his hand out fairly quickly, off of her completely. He said they continued to talk for a couple more minutes, then he closed his door, and she got in her car and left.
> 
> *while my wife was working for her boss, she always got very dressed up. Sexy dresses full make up, etc*. I always liked it because of the way she looked, but I noticed that *she stopped, the minute he moved away*, and would just dress in very plain clothes, and not even wear make-up to work on most days.
> 
> The worst part of all of this is that he is being transferred back here in June even though he will not be by wife's boss, he will be working in the same building, and is now a fairly big wig in the company. *He is single and has never been married. My wife is very happy that he is moving back *


Your initial post painted a pretty clear picture, albeit one that only went back 4 years, while by your wife's own admittance, her affair went back at least 6 years. Doesn't sound like just one time six years ago from all of the circumstances that you've posted.


----------



## LongWalk

For the sake of closure I would calmly ask her to write up a timeline of the affair. You can even fill in some blanks. At this point whatever you get will have to suffice since your wife is not a reliable source of information.

The bitterness of so many years suffering without love or sex is something that she can never make up to you. File for divorce and get all the money you can out of her. Stay in your home and let her go off in world. When you children are adults they will remember this, so she will feel some pain. Hope you can meet someone new.

I imagine your wife can now scarcely look you in the eye.


----------



## Acabado

Will_Kane nailed it I believe.
The PA lasted at the very least until OM-boss moved away, hence the emotional breakdown she experienced. That happened two years after the allegued "just" once time. The leg gropping point out the same direction.
It's very reasonable to think it was a two years (at least) EA-PA with that man which got reduced to long distance EA. WHo knows the real extent. For sure PA started before sex dropped. Since then she has been loyal to OM heart and body. She was clearly trying to relink it now OM is back.

Everything needs to be put in the open, she must come clean once for all if there's any chance of rebuilding something out of this.


----------



## Shaggy

I'm sure there has been business trips for the boss where he's cone back to town for meetings and meet ups.


----------



## happyman64

Get the Poly done John.

She is still lying to you.

Do not tell her before hand. Surprise her with a car ride to talk.

She has been "handling" you for far too long.

Turn the tables and handle her.....

HM64


----------



## Acabado

Demand a full disclosure, at least a timeline (tell her to take a calendar and put it in wrinting what, when, where, how, who...), think hard in your priorities, don't allow money be a deterrent to quit on the polygraph, sell something, save. It's your family, your future, think mid term/long term decision need to be made.


----------



## jnj express

that's all your getting right now, as to physical---she is trying to soften her culpability, and make it look less bad for herself

What's the difference tho----FOR 6 LONG YRS, YOUR MGE HAS BEEN A LIE----and she has looked you right in the eyes each and every day with her lies

The crap, about mge being bad---so she had sex---that is BS----if mge was that bad, that she needed another man---the answer is/was, and always will be----DIVORCE---then go have sex----don't destroy, an innocent family by cheating

She has chosen this man over you, and your kids---she has in public allowed fondling, where others have actually seen it happen

She has fought you for years, so she could have her lover in her life----what kind of a mge, would/could there even be left, out of all of this

This guy is back/coming back soon----do you really think she is gonna end it

File for your D----and go from there----if somehow, she can convince you of a turn around, as she does ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING---then you can always let the paperwork, go unsigned

If you contemplate D, at all---she needs to keep that job, this in re: the issue of alimony

You got lots of thinking to do, and lots of decisions to make---uppermost in your mind, and the basis for all the decisions---IS WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU AND YOUR KIDS

Your so called wife, and so called mother, does not come into the picture as to what you and the kids need---she has checked out and left you for her lover---LONG AGO


----------



## Shaggy

Don't you find it odd that the boss hasn't had a wife or go in all the years your wife as been with him?


----------



## walkonmars

Shaggy said:


> Don't you find it odd that the boss hasn't had a wife or go in all the years your wife as been with him?


No, not a legal wife - but in a sense, he does indeed have a wife. Or at least, the better benefits of a wife.


----------



## jnj express

the lover certainly emotionally has had a wife for the last 3 yrs---

Now he's back----its time this all ended----as said before---one way or the other---something has to give

Now that the so called wife, has been "outed' as to the physical---where can this go-----the so called wife, would have taken the physical to the grave with her------only the poly scared her into the truth

Which can be worse for John---his wife spreading her legs---6 yrs ago, and justifying it---six yrs of lies-----6 YRS OF FIGHTING HER H TOOTH AND NAIL TO KEEP HER LOVER IN HER LIFE---publicly choosing her lover, over her own family

How does one stay with a woman like this

No matter how you look at it---John has to be better off starting over----for what can the future look like, now that her lover is BACK IN TOWN


----------



## Shaggy

So how much has you wife been talking to the OM since admitting the sex? Given her years of daily talks, I'm guessing she's either already talking with him or will very very soon be.


----------



## Iver

To Recap:

1. Meet with a lawyer and get a clear understanding how a divorce will impact you. 

2. Decide if you want to file now - remember, you can always stop this process if you want.

3. Reschedule the poly. 

Also, put a VAR in her car and in the house where she'd talk on the phone. You will probably hear her talking with the OM and I suspect that will clear up quite a bit of confusion.

I'm sorry to say this but if you do want to try to salvage your marriage she will have to go NC and quit her job. I very much doubt she would be willing to do that.

Lastly, if you do divorce don't give your children some nonsense about "Mom and Dad just decided for no reason to live separately" Give them, especially the older boy, the real reason for the divorce. 

They deserve to know the real reason for the disruption in their lives.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BobSimmons said:


> She only confessed because she knew she was about to be busted by the poly. He got the confession that they slept together but she only confessed to the one time when there is a high probability that there were more encounters. She probably got what she wanted by cancelling the poly, there was a confession but I think it's merely damage limitation and he's just scratched the surface. If it is damage limitations she wont volunteer the answers for free most likely sticking to her story of it only happened once.


 He was smart to wait. Here's why:
FAQ


> This is neither a help nor a hindrance to the subject, as many other factors can influence the Pre-testability of the subject, *such as recent emotional trauma or medication*


Yes, I studied this and I am debating getting one for my wife. Quite a few have this line in their FAQ. Even if it was an act, if she was crying, upset or had puffy eyes a scrupulous examiner would have postponed the test.




> He was in control, she was floundering because she wasn't, by "confessing" she has established some control over the situation, he will now come to her with the questions and she will most likely trickle truth him but it will all be within her control. He has to gain total control again. Which is why I asked whether he went through with the poly and why he should still go for it. He needs total control.


You realize we aren't disagreeing on more right? All I am saying is he was right to wait. Now he can decide to sign up for another one, get another parking lot confession, make her take it or see if she'll own up for free.


----------



## LongWalk

Iver is right on.

Maybe good to let her keep the job if you D.


----------



## weightlifter

Honestly. We dont have many women who deserve D more than this one.

OP you deserve better. Yes even men earning "only 50K" which I might point out is above the median.

BTW we all hate being right all the time. Anyway Heal up a bit, we are good at helping post DD too.

Oh and dont stop using the neighbors comp. You dont want your wife finding TAM. She IS good at hiding things already. you dont need her to be stronger.


----------



## sandc

russ101 said:


> Not really in the mood to talk right now, but I will give all of you an update since you all did take the time to respond. We were all set to go to get a polygraph yesterday (5 minutes before we were to leave in fact), and she told me she had something to tell me. We sat down and she tearfully told me the following:
> 
> She did sleep with him once, just not when I thought she did. Six years ago, she went with her company (with her boss, and several others) to Europe for 10 days. She said she thought at the time she was falling in love with him and we were on the verge of divorce (which was true at the time), and on the second to last day there, she slept with him. She said they only did it once and the next morning they realized that they made a huge mistake and they should never speak about it again. She swears that it was the only time they ever did anything, including kissing. That time at the party he was trying for one last fling since he was leaving. She sobbed uncontrollablly and told me they really are just friends that made one huge mistake.
> 
> There is more, but I am numb right now and am just taking this all in. I don't know what I am going to do, but I do know if I decide to stay with her, she has to quit her job. No if ands or buts about it, and go NC. Not really sure if I want to stay at this point though. Everyone on here was right. I feel like such an idiot.


Don't feel like an idiot. You WANT to believe her and in fact you should be able to. Unfortunately... you can't believe her. She has now shown that she can easily lie to you and will only admit the truth when she is about to be caught. You should have gone through with the poly and changed one of the questions to, "Have you had sex with him more than once."

Actually you don't need a poly for that, the answer is yes. No one who is in a emotional relationship with someone else and is at the point of having sex with that person only has sex with them once. So on a 10 day trip to Europe I suspect they had sex at least 21 times. Come on. Europe? 

Change your poly questions and schedule it again. The trickle truth train has not come to a stop yet. I suspect you've got at least a couple more parking lot confessions in her.


----------



## badcompany

I can't believe your considering staying with her.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

You just know it's happening...


----------



## LostCPA

Certainly sounds like another case of "I'll tell him just enough to cancel the poly so that the extent of the ugliness doesn't come out."

She may be telling the truth(not likely), but you will never know without the poly. I am willing to bet that if you had told her "thanks for finally admitting your affair, now we'll just confirm that through the poly and make sure there's nothing more" that you would have gotten a lot closer to the real truth. 

Of course, maybe we're all wrong and your WW is the 1 in a million that tells the whole truth the first time.


----------



## LongWalk

It may come to her as a bit of a shock that her marriage could end without her real husband coming to pick her up.


----------



## Dyokemm

Sorry to hear the bad news John and that you have to now go through this process.

I predicted earlier in this thread that she was bluffing about being willing to do the poly if you would do it also. I thought you might see a partial confession right before the poly was scheduled. Sad to see I was right.

I also said something that is very important for you to keep in mind now that some of the truth is out. I said to prepare for a trickle-truth battle. I think it will be long and painful for you unfortunately.

I agree with the other posters here. I think only a small fraction of the extent of this garbage has been admitted by your wife so far. Her supposed confession doesn't match the facts as you know them for the past 6 years in any logical way.

Do not let her gaslight you and rugsweep this. Continue with the poly if necessary to confirm it all (she will probably spill most of it if you just persist with this demand).

Let her know you are seeing a lawyer and preparing papers...she has to begin to see concrete evidence of how serious she has screwed up her marriage and life. 

You have to instill the fear of losing this in her to make her snap out of her stupid fantasy world.

And, lastly, contact the company HR and absolutely RUIN the life and career of this POS who thought he had the right to destroy your family and happiness. 

Let everyone who knows him know what an immoral scumbag he is in every way possible. Post him on Cheaterville as well..


----------



## badbane

John please don't tell me you believe it was just one time six years ago. Please tell me you aren't considering anything right now other than finding out how deep this rabbit hole goes. Otherwise you are just falling prey to a manipulator. She is sick John sick with lust and selfishishness. You won't get through to her unless you actively pursue tearing down her lies and deceptions and show her who she has really turned into. If I were you I'd be getting as much info as possible and I would also be demanding she terminate her employment to go somewhere else. That would be a ironclad rule. This is a long term physical and emotional affair and don't let her fool you into believing otherwise. If it wasn't she wouldn't have let him touch her inappropriately. That exchange was him asking for sex and she feeling uncomfortable having sex in the parking lot. They then left to a more private location to have sex. It is the only thing that makes enough sense for me and half the other people on this board to believe. Good luck and remember you need to treat your wife as if she was any other stranger you met on the street. She is not the same person you married and she is still dealing with the Affair.


----------



## LostCPA

At this point, she has been lying to you for 6 years. You have to assume that every word out of her mouth is a lie or at best a half truth.

Don't be afraid to set some requirements for reconciliation. If she's serious about recovering your marriage she will understand. If she refuses then head straight to divorce. You have nothing to lose because what you have now is not a marriage. If you always settle for the crumbs, that's all you will ever get.


----------



## azteca1986

LostCPA said:


> Of course, maybe we're all wrong and your WW is the 1 in a million that tells the whole truth the first time.


"It only happened once. Six years ago". What are the odds?


----------



## Dyokemm

Azteca,

I think I like my odds of hitting the lottery in back to back draws better than taking a chance on that claim.

Short answer: 0%


----------



## weightlifter

No the probability is MUCH higher than zero. IT is upwards of .1%!

Sorry John. You dont deserve this. 
You also dont deserve to be beaten up verbally by her.


----------



## LongWalk

John, indeed, you have made an enormous breakthrough. It seems utter impossible that your wife and her then supervisor only had sexual intercourse one time. The number may well surpass you during the same period manyfold. It is strange that this should matter but then quantity and frequency of many things make difference.

Quality is also important. You have not had quality in your marital relations. Had you known the reason you could have acted to change yourself, divorce or negotiate an open relationship.

Things are what they are and the consolation is that the work you have done on TAM now put in the position to change the direction of the ship. Whether or not you want to stay with your wife, you should file for divorce to maximize your position.

If your wife shows genunine remorse, you can ask her to file a lawsuit against her employer for sexual harassment. This would force her to reevaluated her affair. As much as she may have enjoy the sex and secrecy, it is possible to force her to rewrite history. If someone discovers the harm, they may even emotionally reverse themselves.

If the affair is without consequences, she may treasury the memory of those evenings and continue to spurn you.

It would be nice to have her admit that your 50,000 buck love was real while the POSOM's was exploitation.

I am not sure that will happen, but it is possible.

You should 180 hard now to let her have a taste of life without your loyalty.

TAM posters often discuss evil. Was the cheater evil? I would not say that we know this. She was cruel to you, but once you have the capacity to give back in kind, will she have some insight into her behavior.

Keep using the VAR. If you hear her talk with him in the car, you will know that she will not NC.


----------



## just got it 55

John : Sorry it turned out this way I am also sorry for any unhelpful posts that I have made .They were only in an attempt to get your attention. Now you have it. Please listen and executed the advice given from this point on

Good Luck I will only add a post when I feel I can be helpful


----------



## russ101

Thanks to all the replies. I am still in a semi state of shock right now. I really can't believe how well she could lie. We haven't spoken much since last Friday when I found out. I have asked for details as to the night in Europe (supposedly the only one time!). Don't know why I need to know this, but I do. After badgering her with it for a couple of hours (yes hours) she admitted to having sex with him multiple times that night, and once first thing in the morning when they woke up. She claims that by then she realized what a mistake she made, so she really just let him climb on top and do his business. After leaving the room later in the day she and her boss decided mutually that they made a drunken mistake. She also told me that they didn't use protection! I asked her what was she going to do if he got her pregnant. She thought for a second and then said "I don't know". 

My thought is that since she is so against abortion, she would probably tried to pass of the kid as mine. She says I would never to that. I said, you also said you would never cheat on me too, but that was a lie! She won't give me any other details such as did they say I love you, did you give and recieve oral, etc. She says it doesn't matter now. She is still holding fast to the claim that it was only that one night, and early the next morning. 

I have basically told her (and I'm being truthful) I don't know if I want to stay in this marriage any more or not, but if I do decide to stay you will have to do the following:

1. send him a NC letter. I just found out by reading her texts that even though he is transferring back, he will not be in the same building, but a whole other city about 20 minutes away. I said that if she is to keep her job (it would be very hard for her to get another one with pay even close to what she makes now), she can absolutely never contact him again, and if she does, I'm done.

2. She and I go to marriage counseling to see if we can even work out our problems and stay married. Our problems go much deeper than this affair.

3. She has one chance to come completely clean with me about everything. I will schedule another poly (had to pay for the 1st one, and never even went). and I will ask her as many questions as I want. She fails any of them, and I am gone. Right now, I don't care if I leave or not. I am just going through a mix of emotions that I can't even explain. I agree with all of you. I said all of those late nights with him after the two of you f*****, and you never did anything again? I find it very hard to [email protected]

I am still monitoring her through her texts and he has seemed to drop her like a hot potato. She has texted him to call her, and as far as I can tell, he hasn't. She even texted him back the next day and said " why won't you call?". My gut feeling is, she is a lot more into him, than he is into her. If he told her he loved her right now, and for her to divorce me, I think she would, even though I told her this, and she denies it. I think she is with me because of the dynamics of the family.

She has until this Friday to decide if she is willing to do all of this, and like I said, at this point I haven't even decided if I am going to stay with her. Not going to out the POS boss yet, because if I decide to divorce her, I don't want her to lose her job. I might even get some alimony out of it : ).

How do all of you stop the mind movies? I keep on picturing the two of them together all of the time and want to stop.


----------



## FlyingThePhoenix

russ101 said:


> Thanks to all the replies. I am still in a semi state of shock right now. I really can't believe how well she could lie. We haven't spoken much since last Friday when I found out. I have asked for details as to the night in Europe (supposedly the only one time!). Don't know why I need to know this, but I do. After badgering her with it for a couple of hours (yes hours) she admitted to having sex with him multiple times that night, and once first thing in the morning when they woke up. She claims that by then she realized what a mistake she made, so she really just let him climb on top and do his business. After leaving the room later in the day she and her boss decided mutually that they made a drunken mistake. She also told me that they didn't use protection! I asked her what was she going to do if he got her pregnant. She thought for a second and then said "I don't know".
> 
> My thought is that since she is so against abortion, she would probably tried to pass of the kid as mine. She says I would never to that. I said, you also said you would never cheat on me too, but that was a lie! She won't give me any other details such as did they say I love you, did you give and recieve oral, etc. She says it doesn't matter now. She is still holding fast to the claim that it was only that one night, and early the next morning.
> 
> I have basically told her (and I'm being truthful) I don't know if I want to stay in this marriage any more or not, but if I do decide to stay you will have to do the following:
> 
> 1. send him a NC letter. I just found out by reading her texts that even though he is transferring back, he will not be in the same building, but a whole other city about 20 minutes away. I said that if she is to keep her job (it would be very hard for her to get another one with pay even close to what she makes now), she can absolutely never contact him again, and if she does, I'm done.
> 
> 2. She and I go to marriage counseling to see if we can even work out our problems and stay married. Our problems go much deeper than this affair.
> 
> 3. She has one chance to come completely clean with me about everything. I will schedule another poly (had to pay for the 1st one, and never even went). and I will ask her as many questions as I want. She fails any of them, and I am gone. Right now, I don't care if I leave or not. I am just going through a mix of emotions that I can't even explain. I agree with all of you. I said all of those late nights with him after the two of you f*****, and you never did anything again? I find it very hard to [email protected]
> 
> *I am still monitoring her through her texts and he has seemed to drop her like a hot potato.* *She has texted him to call her, and as far as I can tell, he hasn't. She even texted him back the next day and said " why won't you call?". My gut feeling is, she is a lot more into him, than he is into her. If he told her he loved her right now, and for her to divorce me, I think she would, even though I told her this, and she denies it. I think she is with me because of the dynamics of the family. (FTP: She's running scared! GOOD! Let her!)*
> 
> She has until this Friday to decide if she is willing to do all of this, and like I said, at this point I haven't even decided if I am going to stay with her. Not going to out the POS boss yet, because if I decide to divorce her, I don't want her to lose her job. *I might even get some alimony out of it : ).*
> 
> How do all of you stop the mind movies? *(FTP: Keep active see below)* I keep on picturing the two of them together all of the time and want to stop.


*WOW! Your wife is one of the best actors I've seen on TAM! She has morals but only when it suits her needs. I'm so sorry for what you are going through right now! As for the mind movies, it took me years and years, but then I didn't have any IC or Tam or even any real friends to talk to about my ex and what she did to me. Okay, keep your mind active by doing others things that are NOT related to your wife and that POS boss of hers.*

*Running, Walking, Gym, Sign up to meetup.com and making new social friends to take your mind of her. I'm finding it really hard to show any kind of calm or respect you are showing her right now. But YOU seem to be stronger and I want you to nail both of them very, VERY SLOWLY! Until you get what you want from this affair! Your is wife is emotionally connected to the POS boss of hers and she knows you're going to file if she doesn't come clean on everything.*

*You are NOW IN CHARGE! She can't handle this FACT! Keep going.....*


----------



## BobSimmons

Strange, why are you giving her time to decide? Shouldn't it be instantaneous? Weird..


----------



## bfree

John,

You can't stop the mind movies. They will always be there at least a little bit. I can tell you something that probably won't make you very happy. If you stay with your wife and she's not remorseful they will get worse. If she is not willing and able to work very hard at regaining your trust, if she is not willing to give you complete honesty and transparency, if she is not 100% into saving your marriage she will become the trigger that starts those mind movies and keeps them on repeat. There are only two ways those mind movies get better. She works her azz off helping you to get through them or you divorce and completely detach. Sorry.


----------



## Rollin

she needs time to decide whether or not she wants to stay with you?

and your letting her contact him? 

dude that says enough, she contacted him with the hope that he takes her under with the looming threat of you leaving.

she never cared about you, not for the last 6 years, and not now either.

Go back and switch up. Demand NC this MOMENT and if she refuses, you file and start the process.


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## walkonmars

And the lack of intimacy is okay with you. There's a reason for the paucity and it has little or nothing to do with hormones. 

What are you going to do when she fails the poly? 

And you know that she told the OM what's up at your home that's likely the reason for the quick fade. I'm sure he has other females for company and your wife isn't worth the potential pain.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

russ101 said:


> I am still monitoring her through her texts and he has seemed to drop her like a hot potato. She has texted him to call her, and as far as I can tell, he hasn't. She even texted him back the next day and said " why won't you call?". My gut feeling is, she is a lot more into him, than he is into her. If he told her he loved her right now, and for her to divorce me, I think she would, even though I told her this, and she denies it. I think she is with me because of the dynamics of the family..


She can deny it all she wants, you know for a fact she is lying.This is why you don't give a wayward time. If you REALLY ARE sorry, really wouldn't leave and do not love the guy you do not need time. You gave her a week and instead of talking to you, she is trying to contact OM. Sorry, that should tell you where you fall in her mind. 2nd place and plan B when he doesn't return her calls or texts.


----------



## CEL

Screw the shock. Her contacting the other guy was all the answer you need and you know it. I am going to let you know what she did so you can start realizing that you need to start taking the reins you are still following her like a puppy.

1. She cheated over and over again.

2. She lied over and over again

3. She demeaned you, degraded you all to make her affair seem right to her

4. She destroyed and cast aside you trust like trash.

5. She never valued your love instead it was just a convenient thing for you to love her.

6. She never valued your family her kids and you were just secondary to her love for this guy.



Don't let her decide what she wants to do. You need to face the facts she is not remorseful and probably never will be this is evident in the fact that she does not want to tell you anything about the night. You don't need a poly anymore that was only if she was remorseful you need to move on. For both yourself and your kid, go get the papers drawn up and filed "you can stop it later". Tell her you know what her decision is and you don't deserve to be cheated on that both you and the kid deserve better. Next expose to the company this is to prevent the cheaters getting off scot free really in a divorce settlement infidelity rarely matters so she could get primary custody and the house. This is why you need to go see a lawyer. Next expose to family let them know she has been having an affair for YEARS and LIEING to you for years. 

You need to start looking at yourself and your kid you wife has checked out a LONG time ago time for her to start paying for it. Go 180 no more hugs, no more kisses, no more sex, no more support from you all of that is for the person you THOUGHT she was. Until you make up your mind you need to start the divorce procedure. REALLY 6 DAMN YEARS and you are giving her a chance to think it over, you will always be her plan B and she will always treat you like shyte.

Keep posting the more you post the more help we can be the less you post the less help you get.


----------



## Iver

Russ,

Get the VAR in her car & wherever she talks in the house ASAP.


----------



## just got it 55

Iver said:


> Russ,
> 
> Get the VAR in her car & wherever she talks in the house ASAP.


John Please Listen


----------



## LongWalk

There is no reason to demand NC. OM doesn't want to marry her. If he had missed her that much he could have asked her at any time to divorce you. He doesn't even have a wife who would be an obstacle.

How old are your children, John?

I don't think you will decided to stay with her. At this point you are just trying to absorb what you always knew in your gut, but wished to deny.

It may be true that your marriage had deeper problems before the affair but your marriage ceased 6 years ago, so MC would be for something that has nostalgic currency at best.

I would not go so far as to say your wife feels not love for you inspite of all that has gone on. However, the feelings that she still has are like a dandelion that has been covered by a stone for 4 days. It is limp and pale. With sun and water it may turn green again but it will always be sad and stunted.

And the love that you have held onto so long, what of it? Your grip has been so tight that you have choked. It could be that there is less there now than you can believe. What will revive your feelings for her? A polygraph?


----------



## jh52

John -- you are a very good writer IMO -- but you need to read what you write and let it "really sink in".

I will list the things I find disturbing in regards to the way your wife is treating this:

1) She lied to you for 6 years
2) She had sex multiple time that one night and once the next morning -- probably more sex than you got in the last 6 years
3)She is still in contact with OM -- just like you said she is more into him than him into her -- let me put this another way -- she is "in love with him".
4) She won't tell you she said I love you to OM -- because she did -- her actions for the last 6 years tells you that
5) She has totally detached from you for 6 years
6) She has no where near come close to apologizing and taking responsibility for her actions -- instead she texted/calls OM.

I am all for trying to save a marriage -- but I don't know how you get past the last six years and the way she has treated you, lied to you, yes they have had sex since that one night in Europe, her whole body and soul is with OM. I agree that if OM said to her tonight - let's live together - she would be packed tomorrow and out the door.

You deserve better. The kids deserve better. I am not walking in your shoes or for that matter your wife's shoes --but 6 years of her not respecting you and growing apart -- while being in love with OM -- is a lot to overcome.


----------



## MattMatt

russ101 said:


> Thanks to all the replies. I am still in a semi state of shock right now. I really can't believe how well she could lie. We haven't spoken much since last Friday when I found out. I have asked for details as to the night in Europe (supposedly the only one time!). Don't know why I need to know this, but I do. After badgering her with it for a couple of hours (yes hours) she admitted to having sex with him multiple times that night, and once first thing in the morning when they woke up. She claims that by then she realized what a mistake she made, so she really just let him climb on top and do his business. After leaving the room later in the day she and her boss decided mutually that they made a drunken mistake. She also told me that they didn't use protection! I asked her what was she going to do if he got her pregnant. She thought for a second and then said "I don't know".
> 
> My thought is that since she is so against abortion, she would probably tried to pass of the kid as mine. She says I would never to that. I said, you also said you would never cheat on me too, but that was a lie! She won't give me any other details such as did they say I love you, did you give and recieve oral, etc. She says it doesn't matter now. She is still holding fast to the claim that it was only that one night, and early the next morning.
> 
> I have basically told her (and I'm being truthful) I don't know if I want to stay in this marriage any more or not, but if I do decide to stay you will have to do the following:
> 
> 1. send him a NC letter. I just found out by reading her texts that even though he is transferring back, he will not be in the same building, but a whole other city about 20 minutes away. I said that if she is to keep her job (it would be very hard for her to get another one with pay even close to what she makes now), she can absolutely never contact him again, and if she does, I'm done.
> 
> 2. She and I go to marriage counseling to see if we can even work out our problems and stay married. Our problems go much deeper than this affair.
> 
> 3. She has one chance to come completely clean with me about everything. I will schedule another poly (had to pay for the 1st one, and never even went). and I will ask her as many questions as I want. She fails any of them, and I am gone. Right now, I don't care if I leave or not. I am just going through a mix of emotions that I can't even explain. I agree with all of you. I said all of those late nights with him after the two of you f*****, and you never did anything again? I find it very hard to [email protected]
> 
> I am still monitoring her through her texts and he has seemed to drop her like a hot potato. She has texted him to call her, and as far as I can tell, he hasn't. She even texted him back the next day and said " why won't you call?". My gut feeling is, she is a lot more into him, than he is into her. If he told her he loved her right now, and for her to divorce me, I think she would, even though I told her this, and she denies it. I think she is with me because of the dynamics of the family.
> 
> She has until this Friday to decide if she is willing to do all of this, and like I said, at this point I haven't even decided if I am going to stay with her. Not going to out the POS boss yet, because if I decide to divorce her, I don't want her to lose her job. I might even get some alimony out of it : ).
> 
> *How do all of you stop the mind movies? I keep on picturing the two of them together all of the time and want to stop.*


I... don't know. I never had mind movies about them. I think I successfully buried the idea of them having had sex together that I made it a 'forgotten' memory. I feel so badly for you that you go through this.

There is an NLP technique that might help. 

Imagine them together. Then imagine them together, again, but with comedy music as a background.


----------



## Acabado

Why suddenly OM went NC with her?
Likely he was aware she was about to pass the poly, so he's likely aware she had to "confess", the same way he's aware he was busted gripping her leg years ago. For OM all this screams problems, he don't wants problems at all so he dropped from earth.
It's a shame you couln't monitor those conversations regarding poly and disclosure between the pair. You would be relatively sure of the real extent. Can you imagine her telling him, "I told him it was just only once, I protected you, don't be scared, my OM, I just had to tell something...".

Keep monitoring, your wife won't renounce to talk to him, at least once more time, you know, to get closure, to be sure he's OK, that they are still best "friends"... She can't accept this sudden darkness from his sida after six years of emotional attachment from her part. No way. Basic psychology.


----------



## Will_Kane

russ101 said:


> Thanks to all the replies. I am still in a semi state of shock right now. I really can't believe how well she could lie. We haven't spoken much since last Friday when I found out. I have asked for details as to the night in Europe (supposedly the only one time!). Don't know why I need to know this, but I do. After badgering her with it for a couple of hours (yes hours) she admitted to having sex with him multiple times that night, and once first thing in the morning when they woke up. She claims that by then she realized what a mistake she made, so she really just let him climb on top and do his business. After leaving the room later in the day she and her boss decided mutually that they made a drunken mistake. She also told me that they didn't use protection! I asked her what was she going to do if he got her pregnant. She thought for a second and then said "I don't know".
> 
> My thought is that since she is so against abortion, she would probably tried to pass of the kid as mine. She says I would never to that. I said, you also said you would never cheat on me too, but that was a lie! She won't give me any other details such as did they say I love you, did you give and recieve oral, etc. She says it doesn't matter now. She is still holding fast to the claim that it was only that one night, and early the next morning.
> 
> I have basically told her (and I'm being truthful) I don't know if I want to stay in this marriage any more or not, but if I do decide to stay you will have to do the following:
> 
> 1. send him a NC letter. I just found out by reading her texts that even though he is transferring back, he will not be in the same building, but a whole other city about 20 minutes away. I said that if she is to keep her job (it would be very hard for her to get another one with pay even close to what she makes now), she can absolutely never contact him again, and if she does, I'm done.
> 
> 2. She and I go to marriage counseling to see if we can even work out our problems and stay married. Our problems go much deeper than this affair.
> 
> 3. She has one chance to come completely clean with me about everything. I will schedule another poly (had to pay for the 1st one, and never even went). and I will ask her as many questions as I want. She fails any of them, and I am gone. Right now, I don't care if I leave or not. I am just going through a mix of emotions that I can't even explain. I agree with all of you. I said all of those late nights with him after the two of you f*****, and you never did anything again? I find it very hard to [email protected]
> 
> I am still monitoring her through her texts and he has seemed to drop her like a hot potato. She has texted him to call her, and as far as I can tell, he hasn't. She even texted him back the next day and said " why won't you call?". My gut feeling is, she is a lot more into him, than he is into her. If he told her he loved her right now, and for her to divorce me, I think she would, even though I told her this, and she denies it. I think she is with me because of the dynamics of the family.
> 
> She has until this Friday to decide if she is willing to do all of this, and like I said, at this point I haven't even decided if I am going to stay with her. Not going to out the POS boss yet, because if I decide to divorce her, I don't want her to lose her job. I might even get some alimony out of it : ).
> 
> How do all of you stop the mind movies? I keep on picturing the two of them together all of the time and want to stop.


Okay, you are in the right spot mentally now.

I agree if he told her to divorce you and go with him, she would be gone in a heartbeat.

I also believe all of those late nights together after they [email protected]@ked, they definitely were still doing it.

All of your conditions are good, but maybe re-think her keeping the same job with the same company. If he is that close, she can see him no matter where she works, but it will be that much easier if they work for the same company and he is in a position of infuence.

One thing I find very telling is that she didn't immediately agree to all of your condtions and that she has not been a crying, snot-blowing mess. She needs til Friday to decide whether she wants to stay married. She wont' give you any details. I think that, one way or another, the polygraph is going to be the deal-breaker.


----------



## Caribbean Man

OP, secure your finances.
This woman sounding very cold and calculated.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

She's got until Friday to decide if she want's to stay with you AND she's trying to contact her lover.

Do I even have to list what's wrong with this John?...


----------



## just got it 55

Caribbean Man said:


> OP, secure your finances.
> This woman sounding very cold and calculated.


I would not be suprised if her ducts were not lined up by Friday end of business day


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

just got it 55 said:


> I would not be suprised if her ducts were not lined up by Friday end of business day


No doubt. She's played him like a harp for the last 6 years. I'd be surprised if she hadn't thought out her exit stratagy by now.


----------



## tom67

Get a bank account in your name only asap on wed. Take half out of the joint. Prepare for the worst now!


----------



## aug

tom67 said:


> Get a bank account in your name only asap on wed. Take half out of the joint. Prepare for the worst now!



No, take *all *from the joint. 

She already spent tons on her lover. You'll need the money now more than ever.


----------



## warlock07

> She is still holding fast to the claim that it was only that one night, and early the next morning.


You also know how credible she is. Lies, lies, lies .Look, she is not an idiot. She had you fooled for many years that this was your fault and there never was any affair. She knows how to make up lies to fool you. And she is very good at convincing you. You have to give her that. She confessed, only under the threat of a poly. I imagine she informed the OM about her confession(through something other than her phone)


----------



## tom67

warlock07 said:


> You also know how credible she is. Lies, lies, lies .Look, she is not an idiot. She had you fooled for many years that this was your fault and there never was any affair. She knows how to make up lies to fool you. And she is very good at convincing you. You have to give her that. She confessed, only under the threat of a poly. I imagine she informed the OM about her confession(through something other than her phone)


Warlock I think the op is coming out of the fog now. Better late than never. I hope he does what he has to do. time will tell.


----------



## JCD

aug said:


> No, take *all *from the joint.
> 
> She already spent tons on her lover. You'll need the money now more than ever.


I could care what she spent on him. Take all the money out and make sure you check goes to a different account.

Secure beloved and valuable items NOW!

Carry a VAR and get representation. 

Send this email to her parents, your parents, both sets of siblings and any close mutual friends:

"I have recently discovered a big issue in our marriage. While I am fighting to continue to hold things together for the kids, I do not have a lot of hope for the future. I ask for your strength and support in continuing my marriage."

This is vague, but if she 'suddenly' reveals that she's been living with an abusive, emotionally abusive monster AFTER that email, she will seem a trifle more self serving. They will start asking inconvienient questions. You just smile and talk about the sanctity and privacy within a marriage and how you do not feel that embarassing someone is in your best interests...while putting the screws in for them to talk to HER.

She will get the sense that her 'happily ever after' isn't happening.

But why do you want her? She's chosen. It isn't you. 

And an exposure to their HR may not put a kibosh on their jobs particularly if you ask them not to...but it will certainly hit their promotion opportunities. He got to dance. Now THEY need to pay the piper.


----------



## EleGirl

Did she tell the OM that she has told you about their affair?

If it were me, I'd call the OM and ask him about the affair. I'd lie a bit (or a lot) and tell him that she told you that they had a full out physical affair for years.

Then I'd give him a chance to clarify.. see if he says it was only that one trip or if it was a long term PA. I would bet it was a long term PA due to her working late, etc for years.

Didn't you say that even when he was out of town they saw each other once in a while?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Before you would forgive her for cuckolding you while giving her love to OM, from six years ago untill now.....

I can't image what would have to be done, but it seems almost impossible.


----------



## treyvion

See_Listen_Love said:


> Before you would forgive her for cuckolding you while giving her love to OM, from six years ago untill now.....
> 
> I can't image what would have to be done, but it seems almost impossible.


I learned it's not "free" to allow this to happen. If your wife is giving herself to the OM, and the manhood space - and she has you cuckholded, so you have no penetration into that manhood space, you are either a little boy and he is the papa, or you are her lesbian friend. Either one is not good. It takes time to mess your energy up, and it takes time to restore it...


----------



## Dyokemm

Of course that scummy POS dropped her immediately.

He was only after sex, and he didn't give a damn about screwing up someone else's marriage and family life to do it. He is a complete piece of s**t.

Your wife is just too foolishly fogged up to see the reality of this.

But this POS is well aware. And he knows the personal ramifications his scummy a** could face in his career and life if you were to expose to his work.

So he is running for the hills trying to avoid any consequences for putting your family through hell.

Your wife will suffer payback from your actions, whatever they may be. This trash hopes that it ends at that right now so he is lying in the weeds waiting for the storm to blow over.

If you do not blast this SOB by exposing him at work, he will eventually try to nail your wife again once he figures the drama has blown over as long as she still works there.

John. I think you should end this POS's professional life ASAP and not worry about the possible consequences to your WW's job.

I understand your point, but how do you put a price on your pride as a human being. This scumbag messed up your entire adult life up till this point. Are you really gonna let him walk away from doing that scot free?

Bury this POS!


----------



## JCD

Dyokemm said:


> John. I think you should end this POS's professional life ASAP and not worry about the possible consequences to your WW's job.
> 
> I understand your point, but how do you put a price on your pride as a human being. This scumbag messed up your entire adult life up till this point. Are you really gonna let him walk away from doing that scot free?
> 
> Bury this POS!


I always liken this to rattlesnakes. If you find a rattlesnake (or worse, a DEN) on your property, you can kill it yourself, risking you and your dog...or you can flick it off into your neighbors property.

Hit a snake hard enough, and it might stop being a snake. Unlike the rattler, the POS VP can do a profit loss statement in his head and may consider that married P is not worth the risk.

So do the right thing. Hit the snake..and the snakes wife (she certainly isn't yours in any meaningful way except legally)


----------



## barbados

So when the affair started, John's kids were only 12 & 6. I always find this type of cheating by a mother with small children particularly heinous. Just think, for HALF of her youngest child's life, and a third of the oldest child, she was cheating on their father.

John, whether you R or not is your choice, but this level of betrayal of both you and your children screams for D IMO.

I am curious what your WW relationship was like with the kids during the last 6 years and if you noticed any changes in her behavior towards them as well.


----------



## Hicks

You are giving her way too much time.


----------



## LostCPA

Hicks said:


> You are giving her way too much time.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I would have given her about 5 minutes to make her decision and I would be making 1 of 2 appointments this morning, either the polygraph or a lawyer.

She's either all in with you or all in with him, but her cake eating days should have been over instantly. I honestly don't want a wife that needs 4 days to decide whether she wants to be married and committed to me.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Dyokemm said:


> Of course that scummy POS dropped her immediately.
> 
> He was only after sex, and he didn't give a damn about screwing up someone else's marriage and family life to do it. He is a complete piece of s**t.
> 
> Your wife is just too foolishly fogged up to see the reality of this.
> 
> But this POS is well aware. And he knows the personal ramifications his scummy a** could face in his career and life if you were to expose to his work.
> 
> So he is running for the hills trying to avoid any consequences for putting your family through hell.
> 
> Your wife will suffer payback from your actions, whatever they may be. This trash hopes that it ends at that right now so he is lying in the weeds waiting for the storm to blow over.
> 
> If you do not blast this SOB by exposing him at work, *he will eventually try to nail your wife again *once he figures the drama has blown over as long as she still works there.
> 
> John. I think you should end this POS's professional life ASAP and not worry about the possible consequences to your WW's job.
> 
> I understand your point, but how do you put a price on your pride as a human being. This scumbag messed up your entire adult life up till this point. Are you really gonna let him walk away from doing that scot free?
> 
> Bury this POS!


He won't have "TRY". Russ/John's wife will seek the OM out. She's started text/calling the OM as soon as she blew off the poly and "confessed". To get her story straight, I'm sure.

She will... HAS already given up russ/John for this OM.

And her answer will be the same on Friday as it was last Friday, or last year, or 6 years ago.

She's gone.


----------



## aug

She'll try to buy time while she continues her exit from marriage. No matter what she says on Friday, you cant trust her. Period.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Here's what I'd do OP: You gave her until Friday to decide and she hasn't said much to you yet?

I'd cut this short tomorrow and tell her that since she's not decided by now, that the writing's on the wall and that you are deciding: it's over.

This woman doesn't give a damn. She's busy trying to talk to loverboy. She's so much in the fog she doesn't even see you anymore. You don't exist.

Get your finances in order fast and get out.

File for divorce and do the 180 on her.

DO IT.


----------



## tom67

PreRaphaelite said:


> Here's what I'd do OP: You gave her until Friday to decide and she hasn't said much to you yet?
> 
> I'd cut this short tomorrow and tell her that since she's not decided by now, that the writing's on the wall and that you are deciding: it's over.
> 
> This woman doesn't give a damn. She's busy trying to talk to loverboy. She's so much in the fog she doesn't even see you anymore. You don't exist.
> 
> Get your finances in order fast and get out.
> 
> File for divorce and do the 180 on her.
> 
> DO IT.


:iagree::iagree:YES DO IT!


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

It's Friday russ/John.

Is your WS going to give you another chance?


----------



## LongWalk

Cheaterville for OM


----------



## just got it 55

Sorry John/Russ I am not optimistic


----------



## LongWalk

In all fairness to John, if we are honest, let us admit that women are on average verbally sharper than men. Many husbands have trouble arguing with their wives. John is one of many. The difficulties he faces in confronting her have a long history. It is not easy.

He has in spite of all stuck it out on TAM when some others would have quit. What I am saying, John, is that you have taken advice. You gained control of the trail of evidence, kept your mouth shut and did finally confront. You have been trickle truthed, but you have an essential admission. Whether they had intercourse 50, 80 or 250 times is not so important now.

You have justification for divorce. If you divorce you can say to yourself and your families, divorce came because you wife cheated. With her boss, no less. And she insulted you by justifying her sexual frigidity towards you in terms of income. Your salary was not high enough to make a sex life possible.

Her emotional brutality seems boundless. If you had lost your job, would she have put you on a diet of bread and water?

Your wife was not, however, a serial cheater. She was genuinely in love with her former boss. Now that he has dumped her, she is miserable. By filing for D you will reach a fork in the road. She will either be stunned and seek reconciliation or divorce. Either way, do not be nice to her. She needs to feel some portion of the pain you have felt.

She once cried after he moved away. Maybe she wept many times out of your sight. She did not feel this sadness because they had sex once and then enjoyed a stimulating platonic friendship. It was something very deep. For you to even consider R she must hate him, otherwise how can you ever embrace her, knowing that she is still longing for him?


----------



## Shaggy

She's had years to decide between you two.

She chose to only be honest with him, he knows how often they have sex, you still don't.

She chose to dress sexy for him, frumpy for you

She begs him to call her, even now when she's exposed as a cheater she is reaching out to the scumbag who is breaking up her marriage.

So it's totally clear that she has chosen him over you, without reservation.


----------



## LongWalk

Shaggy, do you think D can turn her around on the inside?


----------



## Caribbean Man

LongWalk said:


> And she insulted you by justifying her sexual frigidity towards you in terms of income. Your salary was not high enough to make a sex life possible.
> 
> *Her emotional brutality seems boundless. If you had lost your job, would she have put you on a diet of bread and water?*


:iagree:
I don't think I could have loved a woman who disrespects me that way.


----------



## russ101

Well, heres what happened last night: Wife ageed to a poly. We are sceduled again for next Friday. I am following through with it regardless of what she admits before. Most of you were right about the trickle truth. We talked for about 3 hours last night and the night in Europe she finally shared the following details (some she had already stated):

1. Had sex with him multiple times that night, and once the next morning
2...Did not use protection (which I am extremely angry about, and she only can say she was drunk and not thinking. Sex included oral both ways.
3. He told her he loved her (she claims she never said it to him).
4. If he had asked her to leave with him, she wouldnt have, but would have been extremely tempted (and would have tried to take the youngest with her, I would have fought that and this is in my opinion, the biggest reason why she couldnt).
5. Had sex with him one more time, 6 months after he left, He came back to visit family. She met him for drinks (she told me she was going shopping which she did, then she met him for drinks (she tells half truths), they got drunk went back to his hotel and had sex one last time. She told him after this time that she can't do this anymore while she is married. She claims that was the last time.
6. Swears that she has not even kissed him since then.

7. She is not even talking to him anymore (which I think is true, since I cannot find any form of communication between them.

8. She wants to stay with me, and that she loves me, and not him.

I told her I will not be a second choice, which I feel that I am at this point, and depending upon the poly results (to see if there is any thing else she has been lying about), I am going to see a lawyer on Wed to discuss possible divorce options. She said she understands, but wants me to reconsider. I told her well see after Friday. I am leaning towards divorce either way. It kills me to say this. I am 47 years old, and do not want to start my life over! but I also don't want to live like this anymore.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

russ101 said:


> Well, heres what happened last night: Wife ageed to a poly. We are sceduled again for next Friday. I am following through with it regardless of what she admits before. Most of you were right about the trickle truth. We talked for about 3 hours last night and the night in Europe she finally shared the following details (some she had already stated):
> 
> 1. Had sex with him multiple times that night, and once the next morning
> 2...Did not use protection (which I am extremely angry about, and she only can say she was drunk and not thinking. Sex included oral both ways.
> 3. He told her he loved her (she claims she never said it to him).
> 4. If he had asked her to leave with him, she wouldnt have, but would have been extremely tempted (and would have tried to take the youngest with her, I would have fought that and this is in my opinion, the biggest reason why she couldnt).
> 5. Had sex with him one more time, 6 months after he left, He came back to visit family. She met him for drinks (she told me she was going shopping which she did, then she met him for drinks (she tells half truths), they got drunk went back to his hotel and had sex one last time. She told him after this time that she can't do this anymore while she is married. She claims that was the last time.
> 6. Swears that she has not even kissed him since then.
> 
> 7. She is not even talking to him anymore (which I think is true, since I cannot find any form of communication between them.
> 
> 8. She wants to stay with me, and that she loves me, and not him.
> 
> I told her I will not be a second choice, which I feel that I am at this point, and depending upon the poly results (to see if there is any thing else she has been lying about), I am going to see a lawyer on Wed to discuss possible divorce options. She said she understands, but wants me to reconsider. I told her well see after Friday. I am leaning towards divorce either way. It kills me to say this. I am 47 years old, and do not want to start my life over! but I also don't want to live like this anymore.


Very sorry John, but good for you. You seem to have kept a level head through all of this while staying firm.

My observations:

1) She keeps swearing that she's not doing X anymore. Each time it's turned out to be a lie.

2) The drunk excuse is complete BS. Both times she got drunk and that's why she did it. riiiiiiight.

3) Have you asked her why she wants to stay with you? Even in your writing, her lack of enthusiasm comes through.

4) 47 years old is fine. Yes, starting over is hard but there's so much life to be lived in your 40s and 50s, you will have plenty of chances to find a better woman.

5) Methinks that the OM has dropped her like a hot potato because he's now worried about the fallout. She probably told him that you know and he's worried about his job. Plus he's unmarried. He probably has lots of women to choose from. 

6) If your wife says she loves you, then why did she wait for years to tell you the truth? It was because she knew she was about to get caught. Otherwise she wouldn't have told you. Is that what love is? I suspect she doesn't want the disruption in her life that a divorce would bring.

You're right, you don't have to live like this with a woman who's left you sitting at her back door for years. It would take a lot more than an 'I love you and I'm sorry' to make up for that, but she just seems so callous and unfeeling towards you that I doubt her willingness to do the heavy lifting.


----------



## just got it 55

russ101 said:


> Well, heres what happened last night: Wife ageed to a poly. We are sceduled again for next Friday. I am following through with it regardless of what she admits before. Most of you were right about the trickle truth. We talked for about 3 hours last night and the night in Europe she finally shared the following details (some she had already stated):
> 
> 1. Had sex with him multiple times that night, and once the next morning
> 2...Did not use protection (which I am extremely angry about, and she only can say she was drunk and not thinking. Sex included oral both ways.
> 3. He told her he loved her (she claims she never said it to him).
> 4. If he had asked her to leave with him, she wouldnt have, but would have been extremely tempted (and would have tried to take the youngest with her, I would have fought that and this is in my opinion, the biggest reason why she couldnt).
> 5. Had sex with him one more time, 6 months after he left, He came back to visit family. She met him for drinks (she told me she was going shopping which she did, then she met him for drinks (she tells half truths), they got drunk went back to his hotel and had sex one last time. She told him after this time that she can't do this anymore while she is married. She claims that was the last time.
> 6. Swears that she has not even kissed him since then.
> 
> 7. She is not even talking to him anymore (which I think is true, since I cannot find any form of communication between them.
> 
> 8. She wants to stay with me, and that she loves me, and not him.
> 
> I told her I will not be a second choice, which I feel that I am at this point, and depending upon the poly results (to see if there is any thing else she has been lying about), I am going to see a lawyer on Wed to discuss possible divorce options. She said she understands, but wants me to reconsider. I told her well see after Friday. I am leaning towards divorce either way. It kills me to say this. I am 47 years old, and do not want to start my life over! but I also don't want to live like this anymore.


John / Russ I am sorry you have reached this point,but glad you came to this frame of mind to make real changes in your life.The 180 will be your cure.47 is not old learn to live for you now. I don't know if you can fix your M I don't know if you want to.You may not know either.Have you been able to convey the pain your wife has caused you to her ? She has robbed you of 6 years of happieness.That resentment my be too much to overcome.Doe's she understand what torment she has put you through 6 years of hell.It was supprising that she wanted to stay in a marriage like this.Very hard to understand it you must be lost.Come to terms with what you want.It's all up to you now.Keep it that way.


----------



## imtamnew

Hey man, there is only one person who can make you happy.

Its YOU.

She will never help you make yourself happy.


----------



## azteca1986

russ101 said:


> 5. Had sex with him one more time, 6 months after he left, He came back to visit family. She met him for drinks (she told me she was going shopping which she did, then she met him for drinks (she tells half truths), they got drunk went back to his hotel and had sex one last time. She told him after this time that she can't do this *anymore* while she is married. She claims that was the last time.


If those are her exact words it indicates they've done this more than once, otherwise she would have used "again". "... while she is married" is ominous and tells you a lot.



> 6. Swears that she has not even kissed him since then.


Great! She's fvcked him multiple times by her own admission, but she hasn't kissed him since. What next? "I've wrecked the car, but I remembered your dry cleaning"?

I'm glad you're still going through with the polygraph.


----------



## alte Dame

You wouldn't be starting your life over. You'd just be starting a new chapter, a better chapter. I know many people who were shocked at how much better their lives were when they extracted themselves from bad marriages. They always say that they didn't realize how unhappy they were and how much better it could be.

I predict that you will find that your WW had a multiyear affair with her boss with regular sex. I'm glad you're already leaning toward divorce, since what you continue to find out will just hammer more nails in the coffin.


----------



## akashNil

Every time *Poly *is mentioned, she comes out with some more Truth!

She is still not giving you the full truth, which probably is that they had unlimited sex during that entire period, before he went away. And again, there was more to it than just sex.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

PreRaphaelite said:


> 5) Methinks that the OM has dropped her like a hot potato because he's now worried about the fallout. She probably told him that you know and he's worried about his job. Plus he's unmarried. He probably has lots of women to choose from.


DING! DING! DING!

We have a winner!


----------



## just got it 55

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> DING! DING! DING!
> 
> We have a winner!


99.999999% sure this is the case:iagree:


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

akashNil said:


> Every time *Poly *is mentioned, she comes out with some more Truth!
> 
> She is still not giving you the full truth, which probably is that they had unlimited sex during that entire period, before he went away. And again, there was more to it than just sex.


She won't ever take the poly. Get the poly money from her before hand, so when she backs out again it'll be coming out of her wallet, not yours.

If she agrees again to take the poly, tell her the first question will be "Have you EVER CHEATED on me with ANYONE other than the boss-OM?

If she knows the answer is yes, maybe she'll fore go the Mexican standoff this time and just confess before backing out again on the day of the test.


----------



## LongWalk

:iagree:


just got it 55 said:


> 99.999999% sure this is the case:iagree:


Yes, divorce is an inconvenience to her mind. If you are 47 and she is roughly the same age, she is not going to be hot dating material. Setting up another household as single mom would suck a lot of energy away from her.

Since she cheated for 6 years if you stay just because you deserve to keep your options open, maybe you should have the right to an open marriage now.

You should definitely put him up on Cheaterville. Ask Disenchanted or .... British guy. They really got a lot out of it.

Also, would consider asking your wife if she would sue her employer for sexual harassment?


----------



## LongWalk

barbados said:


> So when the affair started, John's kids were only 12 & 6. I always find this type of cheating by a mother with small children particularly heinous. Just think, for HALF of her youngest child's life, and a third of the oldest child, she was cheating on their father.
> 
> John, whether you R or not is your choice, but this level of betrayal of both you and your children screams for D IMO.
> 
> I am curious what your WW relationship was like with the kids during the last 6 years and if you noticed any changes in her behavior towards them as well.


Good questions. Have your children detected the crisis?


----------



## Hicks

She needs to write a no contact letter that you see and approve. Quitting her job should be strongly considered by you.


----------



## Shaggy

I think you are making a mistake by not having her quit her job and not exposing the boss at work.

I know you are trying to play it smart financially if you D, but what cost if you might R?

You say if she gave up this job, she would have trouble finding a new job. Even if you weren't where you are now, that's pretty precarious a position to be in. What if she got let go in a downsizing, or a new boss had it in for her? If she's got a job that would be so hard to replace, she should be scrambling to turn her career in a new direction because the current one is highly risky.

Consider this, at least one person saw them I the parking lot. It's likely others on the Europe trip picked up on what went down. Then there is the way she dressed and acted for him before he left, and the obvious funk she went into when he did leave. Bottom line - a lot of people at work already know she's having a long term affair with him. They already talk about her and him, and they look at you at events they see you at as the poor dumb husband who doesn't know his wife is cheating on him.

The environment is incredibly toxic there. Any friends she has at work , know she's in an affair with him, and have turned a blind eye to it.

You should have had her quit the Monday after the admission. Now, she sees keeping job, and the world that knew about her affair and did nothing, alive and going.

And the boss has laughed at you for all these years. Not just when he's had your wife run to him to give herself to him, but each and every night she would call him and talk and talk. He knew she was choosing to give more of herself emotionally to him than to you. She was giving him her unqualified love all those nights she called and talked to him, instead of being there emotionally with you.

Even if the only had sex on the trip, and then once after. She's been emotionally cheating , hardcore, for years. Years of each the she had something important to she say running excitedly to him to share it. Each time she had a good or bad day, or a dream, running to her intimate emotional partner to say it. Instead of going to you.

For these years she's given herself more to him emotionally and passionately than to you or your family.

And I'll add, that when she says she isn't talking with him right now, it isn't because she chooses not to in order to safe the marriage, it's because he's not talking with her.

She's still passionately in need of taking with him.

If I where you, I'd be doing things that show her claimed loyalty:
1. A signed statement admitting she has has sex with her boss while on business trips. - you will be giving this to hr, but don't tell her this ahead if time.

2. She has to quit her job, and she has to tell the company the real reason. That she has had a long term affair with the OM that started when she worked for him. And that she is quitting in hope of saving her marriage. She should do this with you in the room with her current boss .

3. She needs to go through her wardrobe , lingerie, and jewelry and remove every thing she bought for him , wore for him, or was given by him. They've had a long term affair, she's no doubt received a lot of gifts from him - they all go. If you see any lingerie she's never worn for you, dump it in the trash yourself.

The goal is to make a complete purge of him.

4. Pictures, videos, emails from or to him. These all get permanently destroyed or deleted. all of them, The only ones that get kept are the ones you need for evidence in a D,


Question for your poly:

- does she him like a love not a friend?
- does she hope that she can avoid a divorce with you, and remain the OM lover?
- has she talked with the OM about cooling the affair just long enough to avoid divorce or fallout to his career?
- is she offering to stay to protect the OM
- has she been keeping in touch with the OM?
- has she talked with him in the last week?
- do they have plans to meet up anytime ?
- do they have a secret way of communicating?
- do they have a special favorite spot to meet up and have sex?
- is she wanting to avoid divorce right now because of the children?
- if it weren't for children would she be leaving you today?
- does anyone at work know about the affair?
- does anyone at work know about her have sex with the OM?
- is the OM coaching her on how to handle you discovery of the affair?
- does she plan on leaving you for the OM?
- does she plan on leaving you in the future, and is just waiting fir when the time is right?
- is she hoping to continue the affair once things settle down?
- is she hoping to have sex again with the OM?
- is she sacrificing herself to protect the OM?
- has she cheated with anyone else?
- des she have a secret private way to communicate with the OM?


Im also thinking they may have a second way of communicating with him. That they use it for when they want to say the I love you's and talk about the sex hook ups etc. that's why you only ever found innocent stuff when you checked up on her. It could be a texting app, or a secret email.


----------



## aug

The good thing about this is the kids are now old enough to understand. They will certainly respect their father more if John divorces their cheating mother. They can probably understand now why their parents were having problems and the fault lies with the mother's long-term affair.


----------



## aug

I think she should keep her job if his lawyer says she's going to be paying him alimony since she makes way more money than he does. Otherwise, her without a job means John has to pay her. That would suck since she's the one who cheated.


----------



## Will_Kane

John, you are getting the trickle truth.

No way they worked all those late nights together and then only had sex on a trip away and a random return-home trip years later.

She tells you now that she loves you, but what was all that stuff about she'll have sex with you if you make more money? Where does she stand on that now?

To me, the sex for a high-earner stuff is even more disturbing than the adultery. That, and from your posts it seems she has treated you really, really poorly for many years. She has treated you like someone she has contempt for. Now that you are standing up for yourself and threatening to leave, she's all "I love you and want to stay married."

If adultery was the only thing going on here, with the welfare of the kids in mind, maybe this is something you could work through. Maybe you still could, but all of her poor treatment of you, lack of sex, and obvious lies for many years make it much, much harder for you to get past.

If you are going to give this a try, she is going to have to agree that YOU HAVE VALUE and DESERVE TO BE LOVED even if you don't earn a dime.


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## barbados

John, if the POSOM hadn't bailed on her, she wouldn't even think about staying with you. Now she says she loves you ?!?! REALLY ! She spent the last 6 years in a sexual relationship with another man (3 times my a$$!) while you had sex taken from you for 6 years !! 

Why even waste your time with a poly at this point ? Just D and live the rest of your life for yourself and your kids, and eventually with another woman if you so choose.


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## Acabado

Look how "we are stuck together for the kids" is now I love you and I want to stay married to you.
Look on how the lack of income was bull, a smoke screen. Is she ready, willing, eager to provide a sexual life instead of pity, passive, mechanical sex once a month? Would be her genuine?

Is she willing to offer a 50-50 deal regarding custody just now?

She must now the ball is in her court, she's the one to fix what is broken. At least to try. There's literaly zillions ICs, books, MCs, online resurces outhere available for those who want it. We have precisely now a thread started by a WW who just got busted: the first thing she did was to reach out TAM. Our actions speak for ourselves.


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## Dyokemm

John,

I still advise you to destroy the career of this POS,

Firstly, because he deserves it for daring to help destroy your family.

Secondly, because I think part of this scumbag's allure to your WW was his high pay and status. That's where all that financial non-sense concerning your sex life came from. Blowing his professional life up, costing him his position and job, will remove that idealized vision she has of him.

Then he will just be a jobless loser with no integrity or honor.

I think it would possibly help your WW to realize that she has risked everything she holds dear in her life for such a complete piece of trash. 

She might then be really remorseful and willing to start doing the heavy lifting to help save your family.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks for coming back. It is hard to have your life turned on its ear. I know it gets a little rough, but people are trying to help. 


russ101 said:


> 2...Did not use protection (which I am extremely angry about, and she only can say she was drunk and not thinking. Sex included oral both ways.


 You know what? This may be true. My argument has and always will be "What makes you think a night of drinking, with a single man, by yourself, while married is anything but a date?" Now, add in a foreign country without your spouse. Even if they were purely platonic friends, this is dangerous ground for the strongest marriage.



> I am 47 years old, and do not want to start my life over! but I also don't want to live like this anymore.


Lose this attitude. Many poor Rs, on this board, have occurred because the BS decided to settle.

Start over? They day my wife becomes mechanical about sex, worried about my income, and puts me second behind another man I'm out. 

Yes, I'm only a few years younger than you. 
Yes, I almost divorced my wife over an EA. An EA that now seems to be so miniscule, compared to others EAs on this forum, I occasionally feel bad for posting on TAM.

Remember YOU deserve honesty, respect and a woman that will make you FEEL GREAT IN BED. Just like a woman deserves the same from her SO.

Oh and let me add one more thing. Go slog through the RDMU thread. His wife stopped talking to the OM for nearly FOUR WEEKS. F-O-U-R W-E-E-K-S!!!!! She has done NOTHING, but lie and doesn't deserve any belief that contact has ended.


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## Blue Firefly

PreRaphaelite said:


> 3) Have you asked her why she wants to stay with you? Even in your writing, her lack of enthusiasm comes through.


The answer is obvious. The OM isn't going to marry her if she gets divorced, and she (in her mid 40's) doesn't want to "start over" either.

But (imho) that also means that if the OM (or some other man she gets involved with in the future) asked her to marry her she would dump her current husband in a heartbeat.

The OP is her security blanket. He provides her some stable ground, but that's all. Given the things she told him (which were unusually cruel even by TAM standards), I can't imagine she is staying put for anything other than security.

The affair aside, the things she told her husband would be a deal killer for me. 47 is plenty young enough for a MAN to start over. It may not be fair, but it's the reality. There's plenty of women (young vibrant women) who would love to have a stable 50 year old man to pour their attention on.

Starting over should be the least of the OP's worries.


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## akashNil

One more thing - I strongly suspect (without any evidence) the OM's posting to a far away location could have been due to this affair. 

Many people, including HR and Management, might have come to know about this ongoing affair, and they might have decided to shift him to a distant location.

Now he is coming back, but NOT in the same building. The reason is obvious. They (The management) won't keep both these two persons together. This also might be the reason that the OM is not keen on carrying on the A.

This is just a guess. But if it is true, it depends on you - how to take advantage of this knowledge.


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## just got it 55

akashNil said:


> One more thing - I strongly suspect (without any evidence) the OM's posting to a far away location could have been due to this affair.
> 
> Many people, including HR and Management, might have come to know about this ongoing affair, and they might have decided to shift him to a distant location.
> 
> Now he is coming back, but NOT in the same building. The reason is obvious. They (The management) won't keep both these two persons together. This also might be the reason that the OM is not keen on carrying on the A.
> 
> This is just a guess. But if it is true, it depends on you - how to take advantage of this knowledge.


Great thinking this is a reasonable senario:iagree:


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## walkonmars

just got it 55 said:


> Great thinking this is a reasonable senario:iagree:



Well, it wasn't exactly a secret to many of the co-workers. 



> About 4 years ago my wife said something to me that caught me completely by surprise. She said that a couple of people at work thought she was having an affair with her boss and to not be surprised if one of them tried to ever call me.


Someone may have spilled to HR and a transfer was offered. So, since the OP's wife has undoubtedly warned the OM, he's keeping his nose clean.


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## LongWalk

Jgi55, could be. Cheaterville is the best way to heat waters at work. Will also make an impression on WW
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

John's initial posting was extremely well stated. The I-am-not-Russ-I-am-John intro was genius. And everything that screamed adultery turned out to be a perceptive read of the clues. 

John, was the trip before or after the colleagues became suspicious?

Also, this need for monsdey, what need? You never get the impression from John's posts that he cares at all about money. He is not a materialistic guy. Even though money is very important to his wife, she doesn't seem to be enjoying their money. And if they divorce, a good part of their wealth be frittered away on lawyers, new furniture, etc.


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## Chaparral

im_tam said:


> Hey man, there is only one person who can make you happy.
> 
> Its YOU.
> 
> She will never help you make yourself happy.


QTF, however, you need to ask her to make a list of things she is going to d to make up for the six years of hell she has put you through. Tell her you need to see examples of what she plans to do salvage a relationship that she has totally trashed.

You also need to make a list of what you feel she has done and what she needs to do............no negotiations either.

Even if you decide to reconcile, you need to keep her feet to the fire.

One good move is to print off a divorce packet from your state( may have to pick this up at the court house if not online) and make sure she sees you studying it.


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## Chaparral

barbados said:


> John, if the POSOM hadn't bailed on her, she wouldn't even think about staying with you. Now she says she loves you ?!?! REALLY ! She spent the last 6 years in a sexual relationship with another man (3 times my a$$!) while you had sex taken from you for 6 years !!
> 
> Why even waste your time with a poly at this point ? Just D and live the rest of your life for yourself and your kids, and eventually with another woman if you so choose.


The OM has always been single, your wife has been nothing but a squeeze and a piece for him. She does not get that. He left town without a second thought for her. She has rationalized that. Even after he was gone she could not bring back the feelings for you. She was carrying a torch. It may have finally sunk in to her that she was played all along.

I have no thoughts on whether you should reconcile or not. Shaggy's questions are great. You can even ask those before the test In a round about way and again on the test. It puts more pressure to come clean before spending the money.

Here is a post that many use to reconcile, if you like, it is telling to be with her and go over it together. It will help you see if she is serious or just throwing you bones to hold things together for awhile. Print it off and see how she reacts to it.

* Wayward Spouse Instructions

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.*


----------



## just got it 55

walkonmars said:


> Well, it wasn't exactly a secret to many of the co-workers.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone may have spilled to HR and a transfer was offered. So, since the OP's wife has undoubtedly warned the OM, he's keeping his nose clean.


Yes I recall that


----------



## jnj express

John do you really think you can have any kind of a life with this woman

She has openly chosen him over you so many times, its ridiculous----The worse open example was at the party years ago, when she to follow him home, chose him, over you and her own kids---he fondles her in the parking lot---knowing full well he had already taken her, and you were nothing, to even be considered.

Does this sound like a woman who is in love with you---what is she really in love with----her cushy living situation, which will end, as others have said---will turn into a large inconvenience, if she has to start over

don't waste money on the poly---why would you---what is there to gain, by more info.---you have enuff already, to know, you were put on the back burner long ago---your mge, in her mind was only a charade, to keep her kids satisfied, that they were in a normal household

Let her keep her job---you will need her to have it---when it comes to alimony

Don't even go 180---just plain go dark on her----somehow, I don't think this is what you will do---but you tell me----what your future looks like having to look at/talk to this woman every day from now on---KNOWING FULL WELL FOR THE LAST 6 YRS, she has LOVED and given herself to ANOTHER MAN

Do you honestly think there will ever be any kind of trust, if you stay----you know her lover is back, how could you trust her---she has lied to you for SIX LONG YRS

But don't ever think you can't start over---you can always start over, as long as you are healthy, you can live a very viable life----but I will tell you this---that won't happen, if you have to live with and see this lying cheating woman who calls herself your wife, every day ---she will trigger you into misery again and again


----------



## NextTimeAround

John, you're 47 now.....

well, I'm 53 and engaged (and a woman, oh my).......

the 40s are still the middle ages these days....

and my widowed mother in her 70s is reconnecting with men she knew earlier in life......

We all still have a lot of life ahead of us.


----------



## Iver

I wonder if she's using Bill Clinton's version of "nothing going on here" when she says there were only two episodes of cheating...

Your lawyer will be able to tell you if alimony (for you) is on the table...this will have to be a factor if you decide to torch the OM.

Also if you were divorced and getting alimony the lawyer can tell you what would happen to the alimony payments if you then burned the OM which would probably get your then ex fired.

Think long and hard about what you want to do but do not sell yourself short. Think of it this way - what would you counsel if one of your children (down the road) was in the exact same situation?


----------



## CEL

I guess my question is has she shown ANY remorse? Also I would encourage you to post more even if it is to vent just so that your mind does not become a battle field, this thread is you place of refuge.


----------



## JCD

CEL said:


> I guess my question is has she shown ANY remorse? Also I would encourage you to post more even if it is to vent just so that your mind does not become a battle field, this thread is you place of refuge.


The problem with this is that he is sneaking over to his friend's house to use HIS log in to post. He is worried about what his tech wife will be able to find on HIS computer.

Of course, he could do what cheaters do and get a smartphone, get a new email address and weld that thing to his hip if he wanted to.

John...there is this clarity...this incredible sense of freedom that comes from *not caring what she thinks.* She isn't going to let the kids starve. You won't let the kids starve. You won't die of lonliness. Money...you can get more money.

Do NOT be afraid of what the future holds. Go out tonight and eat dinner and don't tell her where you are going. Don't answer any questions. Have you heard of the 180? Follow it religiously.

You don't mind, cause she don't matter. You WILL have sex again! Maybe not with her. I promise.


----------



## weightlifter

russ101 said:


> I am 47 years old, and do not want to start my life over! but I also don't want to live like this anymore.


Close your eyes and imagine a few things.

Its 2 months after you divorce, you are at a house party and a girl flirts with YOU. Nothing happens but think on that.
Its 3 months after you divorce, yo see the same girl. You chat her up, she offers no resistance and she fvcks you in your car.
Its 4 months past divorce you date a girl 4 times and nothing comes of it but it feels DAMN GOOD! THere ARE women who will date "only 50K a year" men. and uh, that is a bit above the median. Hate to break that little detail to your wife.
Its 6 months past divorce, you meet a 40 year old woman who is a bit prettier than your wife. You dont know it yet but she is wife 2.0. She does not let you chat you up and fvck her in your car but she does give you her email. You date. You go to kiss her she does NOT turn her cheek, instead she gives you a bit o tongue! Later, Once you get her trust she is always grabbing your noodle. She actually likes sex with you! Not only is she into you, she initiates sex about a quarter of the time!
Its 2 years later and you get to watch her come down the aisle looking and smiling at you. She is wearing a half carat ring you spent 3 weeks looking for. its all you can afford but she LOVES it because you put so much care into looking for just the right stone. She is eagerly awaiting you putting the second ring on her finger and yes, she is still into you.

Someone below is going to write she is going to cheat too but honestly, LIFE IS CHANCES. LIVE A FULL LIFE. You have 30+++ years left. THINK ON THAT 30+ years.

Your decision but put those images INTO YOUR MIND!


----------



## aug

weightlifter said:


> She actually likes sex with you! Not only is she into you, *she initiates sex about a quarter of the time*!



Make that 1/2 the time and we got a deal!


----------



## weightlifter

aug said:


> Make that 1/2 the time and we got a deal!


LOL the point is he is getting some, she is into it, and sometimes he is half asleep and he feels her hand...

or 

"come shower with me"

or simply

"I'm horny"


----------



## just got it 55

I think things went badly


----------



## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> I think things went badly


Really Badly


----------



## Dyokemm

I certainly hope you're wrong.

I hope he has just been too busy because of all the chaos unleashed when he blew this POSOM's world sky high and his wife has come scrambling back FAST as her own world starts to crumble.


----------



## Thound

weightlifter said:


> Close your eyes and imagine a few things.
> 
> Its 2 months after you divorce, you are at a house party and a girl flirts with YOU. Nothing happens but think on that.
> Its 3 months after you divorce, yo see the same girl. You chat her up, she offers no resistance and she fvcks you in your car.
> Its 4 months past divorce you date a girl 4 times and nothing comes of it but it feels DAMN GOOD! THere ARE women who will date "only 50K a year" men. and uh, that is a bit above the median. Hate to break that little detail to your wife.
> Its 6 months past divorce, you meet a 40 year old woman who is a bit prettier than your wife. You dont know it yet but she is wife 2.0. She does not let you chat you up and fvck her in your car but she does give you her email. You date. You go to kiss her she does NOT turn her cheek, instead she gives you a bit o tongue! Later, Once you get her trust she is always grabbing your noodle. She actually likes sex with you! Not only is she into you, she initiates sex about a quarter of the time!
> Its 2 years later and you get to watch her come down the aisle looking and smiling at you. She is wearing a half carat ring you spent 3 weeks looking for. its all you can afford but she LOVES it because you put so much care into looking for just the right stone. She is eagerly awaiting you putting the second ring on her finger and yes, she is still into you.
> 
> Someone below is going to write she is going to cheat too but honestly, LIFE IS CHANCES. LIVE A FULL LIFE. You have 30+++ years left. THINK ON THAT 30+ years.
> 
> Your decision but put those images INTO YOUR MIND!


If I ever find myself single again, there will be no wedding rings.


----------



## just got it 55

Dyokemm said:


> I certainly hope you're wrong.
> 
> I hope he has just been too busy because of all the chaos unleashed when he blew this POSOM's world sky high and his wife has come scrambling back FAST as her own world starts to crumble.


I certainly hope you are correct. It could also be that his neighbor has been away with no computer accessfor russ / John


----------



## jim123

Hi John,

Checking to see how things went for you on Friday or if the poly happened,


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

There's no way she's ever going to take a poly. He will never know the full extent of his WS's betrayal.

She never moved out of his house, but in every other way, she left him years ago. I think she'll play the I'm sorry game for a short while. But once she realizes that John is not backing down and that she'll have to do the heavy lifting to stay married - She's done.

OR, John caved...


----------



## russ101

Sorry its been so long between posts, just haven't been in the mood to even talk lately. Here's the update:

Set up another poly, wife agreed to it, admitted more to me and I made her go through with the poly anyway. I said I can't take you at your word anymore. If we have any chance at all of staying together, you need to take it anyway. to make a long story short:

1. She slept with him after the first time in Europe for 3 years, about twice a month, but never at work (like it even matters). 

2. When he left she went up there to see him about 4 times, the last time was about a year ago (I knew about it, but she said it was with a couple other employees, which was a lie). She slept with him on all of those occasions. 

3. She loves him, but she doesn't think he loves her.
4. She is ashamed that she didn't just end our marriage instead of having a long affair, but she thinks she was waiting to see if he returned her love.

5. She still has feelings for him. 
6. She does love me, but not like she used to. She feels I have not followed through with what I said I was going to do in our marriage, and it has killed our relationship.
7. She never used protection at any time. Can't give me an answer why.
8. doesn't know what she wants to do. He comes back this week.

The poly confirmed all of what she admitted to me, although by the end of her confession, I was ready to divorce and it wouldn't have mattered to me if she had refused at this point.

I made the decision for her. I'm divorcing her. We have a 6 month wait in our state before we can divorce. Part of me is very relieved, and part of me is heart broken. the kids don't know yet. She says she doesn't want to divorce, but wont fight me on it. I am going to contact her work and let them all know what has happened, but I (at the advice of my lawyer) will wait until the divorce is final. It sucks to be 47 and having to start life over, but so does staying in a marriage like this. 

I don't talk to her much anymore, unless it has to do with the division of assets or the kids. Thanks to all who posted, most of you were right. By the way, she is still contacting him, and is acting very excited he is returning! She does not know I know this.


----------



## BK23

John. That's terrible. so sorry to hear about this. Keep your head up, do the 180, one year, two, five down the line you will be so much happier. 

A couple other things: I'd stop the surveillance if you are definitely going to divorce. No need to torture yourself when you have so many details already. Also, her bullsh!t about you not meeting her expectations is 100% just a rationalization of her terrible behavior. Don't let it get you down. She wasn't worthy of you, and now you are free to find someone who is.


----------



## tom67

John I'm sorry all the telltale signs were there. Hey I'm 46 and having a good time. You will be stronger after this. Affair is the cowards way out.


----------



## Dyokemm

Send this POS a text or email telling him he better get his resume together to start looking for a new job, cause he's gonna get fired after you expose to HR. Make the scumbag a**hole squirm.

I'll bet he throws your wife away so fast her head spins.

Getting so unceremoniously dumped will give her just a tiny sliver of the pain she has visited on you.

This piece of trash POSOM helped ruin your family's life. As a father who loves his children, I would destroy every aspect of this guy's life you legally can.

Your wife is already getting the ultimate rejection you can give her. Divorce her ASAP and make sure to expose to all of her friends and family about why you are doing it.


----------



## badbane

russ101 said:


> Sorry its been so long between posts, just haven't been in the mood to even talk lately. Here's the update:
> 
> Set up another poly, wife agreed to it, admitted more to me and I made her go through with the poly anyway. I said I can't take you at your word anymore. If we have any chance at all of staying together, you need to take it anyway. to make a long story short:
> 
> 1. She slept with him after the first time in Europe for 3 years, about twice a month, but never at work (like it even matters).
> 
> 2. When he left she went up there to see him about 4 times, the last time was about a year ago (I knew about it, but she said it was with a couple other employees, which was a lie). She slept with him on all of those occasions.
> 
> 3. She loves him, but she doesn't think he loves her.
> 4. She is ashamed that she didn't just end our marriage instead of having a long affair, but she thinks she was waiting to see if he returned her love.
> 
> 5. She still has feelings for him.
> 6. She does love me, but not like she used to. She feels I have not followed through with what I said I was going to do in our marriage, and it has killed our relationship.
> 7. She never used protection at any time. Can't give me an answer why.
> 8. doesn't know what she wants to do. He comes back this week.
> 
> The poly confirmed all of what she admitted to me, although by the end of her confession, I was ready to divorce and it wouldn't have mattered to me if she had refused at this point.
> 
> I made the decision for her. I'm divorcing her. We have a 6 month wait in our state before we can divorce. Part of me is very relieved, and part of me is heart broken. the kids don't know yet. She says she doesn't want to divorce, but wont fight me on it. I am going to contact her work and let them all know what has happened, but I (at the advice of my lawyer) will wait until the divorce is final. It sucks to be 47 and having to start life over, but so does staying in a marriage like this.
> 
> I don't talk to her much anymore, unless it has to do with the division of assets or the kids. Thanks to all who posted, most of you were right. By the way, she is still contacting him, and is acting very excited he is returning! She does not know I know this.


I really could not believe this. Wow just wow. The level of selfishness here is unimaginable. There is light here. At least you are out of a crap marriage and you can find someone who actually wants to be with you now. Not some stupid B(*&* that is just using you to hold out for the OM. The OM is going to break her heart. There can be no doubt about that. just know that people, well I wouldn't call her a person because she lacks humanity, like your STBXW don't end up happy.


----------



## Dyokemm

And she doesn't want to divorce you yet because she doesn't have her life set up with sh**bag yet and knows that her financial existence is in for a rude awakening.

She wants to cake eat til Mr.Perfect agrees to take her in. 

That's why I say you blow him up NOW. If he knows you are going to HR he will run his scummy a** as far away from her as possible to save himself.

She will be left without her M or her Fantasyland future.

Perfect outcome for a woman who could lie and manipulate you to that extent for years.

And post POSOM on Cheaterville so he never gets the chance to escape what he has done. Any future employers will easily discover what a pile of trash is applying to work for their organization.


----------



## CEL

All I have to say is GOOD divorce the lying, cheating piece of scum. How she could do that for so long and just the sheer amount of lies that she told. I would have a hard time even being remotely civil to her and I would not of been able to hold off on exposing to the company I just would not be able to the anger would be too much. I can understand the lawyer angle he wants her happy so the divorce goes easy and that makes sense I just could not do it. I would of blown up the hr with my complaints and I would of been emailing the OM like crazy.

1. Have you exposed to your family and friends.

2. Have you changed the sleeping arrangements so that you don't sleep together anymore.

3. Have you made the necessary changes to your checking accounts.

4. When are you going to tell your kids? How much?

5. How hard are you going 180. I would be as dark as a black hole. I mean unless she asked me something I cared about I would not even answer. NO I love yous. NO how was your day. NO talking about small things. NO help with carrying things in. NO going out of my way on ANYTHING at all. In fact I would not even talk to her unless directly addressed. I would have to do this just so that I did not go nuts.

Let me put this in perspective.

1. She STOLE 6 YEARS of you life. This time you will never get back you mine as well of been in prison she took this time from you. And shows O remorse for it.

2. She betrayed her vows.

3. She betrayed your trust.

4. She betrayed your love.

5 She disrespected you at every turn.

6. She belittled you at every turn.

7. The sheer emotional abuse you have taken from her over these YEARS is staggering to contemplate. Just staggering.


What a vile conniving cruel excuse for a meat sack. I just do not have the words to describe how utterly disgusted I am with her conduct. I can guarantee you will find better women as really you could pick up a better women for 20 dollars downtown at least they are honest.

I am so sorry for you this is just the worst thing. Good luck and know that you are doing the RIGHT thing divorce this whvre and move on.


----------



## azteca1986

That's just awful. Sorry for you John.



russ101 said:


> She says she doesn't want to divorce, but wont fight me on it.


Takes the cake, so to speak.



> I am going to contact her work and let them all know what has happened, but I (at the advice of my lawyer) will wait until the divorce is final.


It's good advice from your lawyer. Get through the divorce as smoothly as possible. You don't want to antagonise her.

After the divorce is final... scorched earth for OM.


----------



## tom67

OM is going to find a younger secretary to poke your wife will just be a side piece of @ss. You will find a younger hotter version of w.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I'm so sorry John. You're in my thoughts.


----------



## LostViking

Man that sucks. So sorry for what she is putting you through. 

I'm with the others. Exposé the OM and divorce her. Make them both pay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

You can very much post the OM up on cheaterville today as a first step at dealing with them.

I so very sorry it turned out this way.

They both deserve full exposure at work, he especially deserves to be fired for using his position to screw your wife.

And frankly she deserves a full karma bus.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> You can very much post the OM up on cheaterville today as a first step at dealing with them.
> 
> I so very sorry it turned out this way.
> 
> They both deserve full exposure at work, he especially deserves to be fired for using his position to screw your wife.
> 
> And frankly she deserves a full karma bus.


Do cheaterville now wait till d is final on hr
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

> Your wife is already getting the ultimate rejection you can give her. Divorce her ASAP and make sure to expose to all of her friends and family about why you are doing it.


:iagree: That was a hard road that you travelled. You took a lot of grief to stay on TAM but you solved it in the end. Be proud that you did not deceive yourself.

I don't think anyone believes that so little sex occurred but when she said they did not have sex at work, probably all that meant was that they left work to have sex. It would have been unethical and disrespectful to their employer.

Your children will not like POSOM because he is not a nice guy. I think your wife will introducing him to others difficult. That will be her problem.

Get every cent of alimony that you are entitled to under the law as compensation for the stolen years.

Monitoring your stbxw's communications may be painful but at this point you may also get intelligence about her divorce strategy.


----------



## just got it 55

Sorry John But now you can start to move on 
The best thing God ever made was another day. Tomorrow will be yours


----------



## MovingAhead

I'm very sorry for you brother.

It does suck starting over, but you do get to choose how you want to spend the rest of your life. Look at it as an opportunity for a better tomorrow. Some people do not realize what they have until it is gone.


----------



## Caribbean Man

russ101 said:


> After this revelation, I did a little investigating and found out that she was talking to her boss every night on her phone, always when she was out of the house shopping, or after I had gone to bed. I flipped out and asked her what could she possibly be talking about with him every night. * She told me she and had become very close friends and talked on the phone just like she would with any other friend.  She said he isn't even attractive, besides, you know I would NEVER cheat on you. *


Another case of " _he is just a friend.....he isn't even attractive, besides , you know I will never cheat on you_."

Another case of another husband completely blindsided by his wife's reassurances for years. Refused to believe what everyone else knew, besides him, because he trusted her.

John, I'm sorry your worst fears have been confirmed.
But tomorrow is the first day in the rest of your _new_ life.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

russ101 said:


> Sorry its been so long between posts, just haven't been in the mood to even talk lately. Here's the update:


 It's you, not us, going through crap. Don't apologize for taking a break.



> Set up another poly, wife agreed to it, admitted more to me and I made her go through with the poly anyway. I said I can't take you at your word anymore. If we have any chance at all of staying together, you need to take it anyway. to make a long story short:
> 
> 1. She slept with him after the first time in Europe for 3 years, about twice a month, but never at work (like it even matters).
> 
> 2. When he left she went up there to see him about 4 times, the last time was about a year ago (I knew about it, but she said it was with a couple other employees, which was a lie). She slept with him on all of those occasions.
> 
> 3. She loves him, but she doesn't think he loves her.
> 4. She is ashamed that she didn't just end our marriage instead of having a long affair, but she thinks she was waiting to see if he returned her love.
> 
> 5. She still has feelings for him.
> 6. She does love me, but not like she used to. She feels I have not followed through with what I said I was going to do in our marriage, and it has killed our relationship.
> 7. She never used protection at any time. Can't give me an answer why.
> 8. doesn't know what she wants to do. He comes back this week.
> 
> The poly confirmed all of what she admitted to me, although by the end of her confession, I was ready to divorce and it wouldn't have mattered to me if she had refused at this point.
> 
> I made the decision for her. I'm divorcing her. We have a 6 month wait in our state before we can divorce. Part of me is very relieved, and part of me is heart broken. the kids don't know yet. She says she doesn't want to divorce, but wont fight me on it. I am going to contact her work and let them all know what has happened, but I (at the advice of my lawyer) will wait until the divorce is final. It sucks to be 47 and having to start life over, but so does staying in a marriage like this.
> 
> I don't talk to her much anymore, unless it has to do with the division of assets or the kids. Thanks to all who posted, most of you were right. By the way, she is still contacting him, and is acting very excited he is returning! She does not know I know this.


Sorry man, cancel the poly and use thhe poly money, if you haven't paid, for your divorce filings and a U-hual for her or your stuff. 


I agree, with the lawyer, have everything prepared and then send it to the company once everything is settled.


----------



## weightlifter

John. You know we all here hate being right so often.

Heal up. You can love again. Yes really. Look forward. Not back.

Oh and stick around. You are of use to the guys behind you. Youve been down the road...


----------



## happyman64

John

Ditch her as fast as you can. She is stupid.

As soon as she is free the OM will dump her. He only wants her when he wants her.

She is lost to you and the kids.

What a horrible person she really is. And she put your health at risk as well as her own.

Good riddance.

You should just throw her out.

HM


----------



## PreRaphaelite

John

What a selfish callous lying ***** your wife is. Good for you for having the courage to find out the truth and good for you for standing up and deciding on a divorce.

Her lame excuse for you not meeting her expectations in the marriage does not even deserve a penny for a thought. What about her behavior in the marriage? Jesus.

I hope you can get yourself away from her quickly. Can you get her to move out? The sooner you can separate from her the better.

Chin up friend. 47 is NOT old. There are tons of women in their 40s who are single/divorced and looking for a good man! Many of them were screwed over by their XH the way your wife screwed you over. And now you've gotten out from underneath a sham marriage to a sham wife.

Your STBXW is a fool. This POS OM is never going to fulfill her dreams, especially when you expose the both of them as you plan on doing.


----------



## WyshIknew

I don't understand this wait until you're divorced stuff.

I'd expose now, feck 'em.

Ross to HR, "Hi I'm the ex husband of Lucy Loose Legs." "She is bonking so and so."

HR, "Oh thanks but you are divorced now so what does it matter?"

Perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way, it just seems to me the time to expose is before the divorce. It's "he is humping a married woman." opposed to "he is humping a woman who was married."

Why has the lawyer suggested waiting?


----------



## Nucking Futs

WyshIknew said:


> I don't understand this wait until you're divorced stuff.
> 
> I'd expose now, feck 'em.
> 
> Ross to HR, "Hi I'm the ex husband of Lucy Loose Legs." "She is bonking so and so."
> 
> HR, "Oh thanks but you are divorced now so what does it matter?"
> 
> Perhaps I'm looking at it the wrong way, it just seems to me the time to expose is before the divorce. It's "he is humping a married woman." opposed to "he is humping a woman who was married."
> 
> Why has the lawyer suggested waiting?


If she gets fired John will have to pay more alimony.


----------



## tom67

Nucking Futs said:


> If she gets fired John will have to pay more alimony.


Right but put him on cheaterville now just mention wife without her name. When d is final scorched earth.


----------



## sandc

John,
So sorry to read that news. So, you were her 'plan b". You are nobody's plan b. Put plan D into action and rid yourself of this baggage. This was not about you but her. Remember that.

Take time, heal yourself, then find one of the many women out there who would love to be in a relationship with a good honest man.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

One more thing OP, although I think you've already started on this:

Do the absolute 180 on her. Show her that she is no longer part of your life and that you are moving on without her. Talk to her only about business.

She may try the sobbing crying routine one day, especially when it starts to hit home that the POS OM isn't much into her. Let her cry her eyes out. Listen, say nothing, and walk away.


----------



## sandc

Actually if you have the OM's contact info. Drop a note to him that you are "thinking" about contacting HR because your wife confessed everything. Then watch him throw her under the bus.


----------



## LostViking

47? Dude you are in your prime. You are at the height of male sexual attractiveness as we speak. 

Dress nice, keep in reasonably good shape and the ladies will be throwing it at you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

I'd be exposing to HR now before he's back in town.

She'll find another job before the D is done because shell want a lot more than any alimony she might get. Besides I imagine the judge would take into account why she lost her job.

See if all it took was being unemployed to score alimony, then every working spouse getting a D could simply quit their job until after the D.

Burn them both now while the iron is hot.

And also see him dump her cold.


----------



## WyshIknew

Nucking Futs said:


> If she gets fired John will have to pay more alimony.


Not for ever surely?

Once she gets another job can't he get it reassessed?

I'm just a bit suspicious that when lawyers advise waiting they just want minimal work for maximum money.

Never mind I know nothing I suppose. This particular situation would gripe the feck out of me.


----------



## WyshIknew

Shaggy said:


> I'd be exposing to HR now before he's back in town.
> 
> She'll find another job before the D is done because shell want a lot more than any alimony she might get. Besides I imagine the judge would take into account why she lost her job.
> 
> See if all it took was being unemployed to score alimony, then every working spouse getting a D could simply quit their job until after the D.
> 
> Burn them both now while the iron is hot.
> 
> And also see him dump her cold.


Yes my point exactly.

I don't recall seeing many threads here where a BS has regretted exposure, but I have seen many where they regret waiting.
Look at Carlton for one.


----------



## Chaparral

Am I mistaken but I thought she made a lot more money than Russ. Go after her for alimony and primary custody if not full custody. Then expose her at her work.

I would let the children know soon if only to wipe the smug fantasy off her face.

Prayers for you and your children.


----------



## Chaparral

Definitely contact om and tell him to expect full exposure.

What state do you live in, it may be possible to file a fault divorce?


----------



## Acabado

So sorry man.

It's the beggining of a great future for you. 
Drop the dead weight, she's been draggin you for years.
In your shoes I'd expose him to HR like yestreday and also her toe everyone she cares about.
Cheaterville for both of them.


----------



## tom67

Your kids are old enough just tell them mom had an affair that's why we are divorcing simple and to the point.


----------



## turnera

I hope to God you tell the kids the truth of why they're being divorced.

And if nothing else, put OM on Cheaterville now. That won't affect your divorce one bit. But it will probably make him ditch your stbx like a lead balloon.


----------



## alte Dame

Big betrayal. Very big. My sympathies, John. Your W is a huge liar and you are so much better off without her. I feel sorry for your children, but they are so very lucky to have you.

I feel like I've started my life over a number of times in my life and it just gets better. One foot in front of the other and before you know it, you're looking back at something that wasn't anywhere near as good as what you have now.

Expose that POSOM. He deserves to have his career tanked. I would get in touch with him, threaten to expose, watch what he does with your WW to save his rear, and then expose anyway. Cheaterville.com, the whole nine yards. PM SomedayDig - he really served the OM some great justice after his W had a 5-year A.

Again, so sorry to hear all of this.


----------



## warlock07

Heartbreaking...


----------



## Shaggy

Any chance of seeking a settlement from the company since she and he used company time, trips, money for their hook ups which means the company didn't maintain proper oversight.


----------



## lenzi

WyshIknew said:


> Not for ever surely?
> 
> Once she gets another job can't he get it reassessed?
> 
> I'm just a bit suspicious that when lawyers advise waiting they just want minimal work for maximum money.


Alimony can always be adjusted. It means going back to court, paying attorneys thousands of dollars and leaving it up to the discretion of the court which could do any number of things. 

If she loses her job, it's most likely going to cost him, and even if she loses it after the divorce, that's an "unexpected change of circumstances" which could result in her filing for a modification of alimony. If she gets it, well then just maybe she won't try so hard to get another job. 

Not worth the risk just to get some satisfaction and revenge. 

That's good advice from the attorney, nothing to do with "less work for more money".


----------



## jim123

John,

Start getting out and moving on. Put your life together. It is all about you. It will all work out.


----------



## Shaggy

lenzi said:


> Alimony can always be adjusted. It means going back to court, paying attorneys thousands of dollars and leaving it up to the discretion of the court which could do any number of things.
> 
> If she loses her job, it's most likely going to cost him, and even if she loses it after the divorce, that's an "unexpected change of circumstances" which could result in her filing for a modification of alimony. If she gets it, well then just maybe she won't try so hard to get another job.
> 
> Not worth the risk just to get some satisfaction and revenge.
> 
> That's good advice from the attorney, nothing to do with "less work for more money".


I disagree. It is very much worth the self respect you get from telling the truth, and refusing to hide their affair for them.


----------



## lenzi

Shaggy said:


> I disagree. It is very much worth the self respect you get from telling the truth, and refusing to hide their affair for them.


If he takes your advice, and she loses her job, and the court orders him to support her, how do you think he's going to feel writing her a check every month?


----------



## Shaggy

lenzi said:


> If he takes your advice, and she loses her job, and the court orders him to support her, how do you think he's going to feel writing her a check every month?


What is more likely, that she'll get a new job or that she will never work again? That, the judge will be informed she lost her job because of the affair that also ended her marriage, or that OPs attorney won't present that very relevant piece of info.

By your logic, the OP should quit his job because she will have to pay him support.

The fact is, she has a demonstrated earning ability. She will be expected to have a job earning what she earns now. 

It doesn't work for dads who try to bail on support or alimony by claiming they are unemployed, why on earth would it work for the cheating spouse?


----------



## Shaggy

Also of he takes the advice and he hurts the affair and the OM, he might just succeed in driving the guy away and prevent the OM from being called dad by his kids.

You gotta break eggs if you want an omelette.


----------



## JCD

One thing I remember when my wife and mom worked: they always told me about 'that girl' the one who drove them crazy at work. The one they hated working with.

One figures that this other woman reciprocates these feelings.

I'd have an informative lunch with 'that girl' about bosses, promotions and whom is sleeping with whom.

Wonder how that plays out...


----------



## LongWalk

I have yet to read that someone was disappointed by Cheaterville. The Internet is powerful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Sorry for you, John.

All that can be said is already better said by others here. 

I wish you strength to process this all.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



Shaggy said:


> Also of he takes the advice and he hurts the affair and the OM, he might just succeed in driving the guy away and prevent the OM from being called dad by his kids.
> 
> You gotta break eggs if you want an omelette.


This would be the biggest factor for me.


----------



## JCD

Shaggy said:


> Also of he takes the advice and he hurts the affair and the OM, he might just succeed in driving the guy away and prevent the OM from being called dad by his kids.
> 
> You gotta break eggs if you want an omelette.





bfree said:


> This would be the biggest factor for me.


Yeah, I gotta agree. This would be huge for me too.

BUT...bear in mind that this woman would be at his house in a New York Minute if she thought he wanted her that way...and he doesn't.

So it's less of a concern that it seems on the face of it.

I think that the disreputable should actually face as much justice as we can afford to inflict on them.


Sometimes it's impossible. But not in this case.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: received some very disturbing news*



JCD said:


> Yeah, I gotta agree. This would be huge for me too.
> 
> BUT...bear in mind that this woman would be at his house in a New York Minute if she thought he wanted her that way...and he doesn't.
> 
> So it's less of a concern that it seems on the face of it.
> 
> I think that the disreputable should actually face as much justice as we can afford to inflict on them especially considering their world it's about to be turned upside down.
> 
> 
> Sometimes it's impossible. But not in this case.


I have no doubts that when John starts the divorce proceedings and her lover has moved back she will attempt to at least introduce the POSOM to the children. That is one introduction that I don't feel would be healthy for them.


----------



## WyshIknew

OP, quick question.

You state that your wife doesn't want a divorce. I'm flabbergasted to say the least.

What were her alternative solutions to divorce?

You and her to stay married and for you to be company for her when OM didn't fancy a shag?

Make him breakfast in the morning?

If you are that 'useless' to her compared to OM why does she even want to stay married to you?

Methinks she has a big wake up call coming.


----------



## Chaparral

The exposure arguement comes up here all the time, especially with newbies. It has never been shown to actually hurt the BS. On the contrary, almost everyone that delays ends up kicking themselves in the backside from not doing it immediately. It usually does bust up the affair. And that make everyone get realistic.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

What a horrible story.

What ever may be there to loose dont let both of them go Scot free.

Expose not to the world but to the universe.


----------



## Acabado

Shaggy said:


> Also of he takes the advice and he hurts the affair and the OM, he might just succeed in driving the guy away and prevent the OM from being called dad by his kids.
> 
> You gotta break eggs if you want an omelette.


This, this is the main reason.
Last thing in this world I could deal with was "our" MOM taking care of my kids. I'd do whatever it takes to make this simply imposible, regardless money. alimony... whatever.
There's nonthing you can do to force her to cut ties with OM, she's already excited to start this new life. I say make this posibility as most unconfortable as you can. Destroy OM's world. Shame you wife enough to make her reconsider to start a real relationship with him, burst that bubble. Make his move to this town and company impossible. If she wants so badly to be with OM then let her move 1000 miles away and leave the kids with you. Force her to travel. Delay this as long as you can.
You can fail but try at least.
Lawyer up. He/she works for you. Don't remain passive because he/she wants things smooth.


----------



## lenzi

Shaggy said:


> What is more likely, that she'll get a new job or that she will never work again? That, the judge will be informed she lost her job because of the affair that also ended her marriage, or that OPs attorney won't present that very relevant piece of info.


What's more likely is that if she loses her job (as compared to quitting) the courts will NOT say "you lost the job because of the affair, it's your fault so no support". Courts do not consider infidelity when making these sorts of rulings.

What the courts would likely do, is that since was fired rather than quitting, and she therefore has no income- they will rule that poor John will now have support payments to make until and unless his wife goes and gets another job, which may be more difficult since she was terminated from her previous job and lets face it the economy isn't in a good place right now and lets face it if she's getting a monthly support check which allows her to sit on her a$$ or spend more time with the OM, she won't exactly be running to the mailbox with resumes.

So in answer to your rather faulty logic filled post, the most likely scenario is "he exposes, she gets fired, he pays spousal support".



Shaggy said:


> By your logic, the OP should quit his job because she will have to pay him support.





Shaggy said:


> It doesn't work for dads who try to bail on support or alimony by claiming they are unemployed, why on earth would it work for the cheating spouse?


If someone is employed, and is getting divorced, and subsequently quits their job to avoid paying support, the courts will likely hold them to the same income standard that they had prior to voluntarily relinquishing their employment. 

I know you're trying to be helpful but you are obviously not aware of the costly ramifications, and your advice to the Op on this thread should be disregarded- unless revenge is more important to him than financial considerations.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Shaggy said:


> I'd be exposing to HR now before he's back in town.
> 
> She'll find another job before the D is done because shell want a lot more than any alimony she might get. Besides I imagine the judge would take into account why she lost her job.
> 
> See if all it took was being unemployed to score alimony, then every working spouse getting a D could simply quit their job until after the D.
> 
> Burn them both now while the iron is hot.
> 
> And also see him dump her cold.


Agree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

He'll have support payments until she gets another job. And then he goes BACK to court and has them removed. In the meantime, POSOM dumped her for the hassle and risk to his job.


----------



## turnera

However, if he's ok with waiting to burn HER, fine. But I would not be waiting to burn OM. To keep him away from his wife.


----------



## lenzi

Shaggy said:


> See if all it took was being unemployed to score alimony, then every working spouse getting a D could simply quit their job until after the D.


Not sure where you get this crazy idea that exposing your soon to be exspouse and getting them fired equates to voluntarily quitting your job to avoid paying spousal support but it's just plain wrong.



Shaggy said:


> She'll find another job before the D is done because shell want a lot more than any alimony she might get.


I pay $4000 in spousal support for an exwife that could maybe get a job making 2/3 of that amount- and she hasn't tried in over 6 years, for reasons that should be obvious. You don't know what the Op makes or what his soon to be ex spouse is capable of earning so to make statements like "she won't make as much in alimony as she would if she was working" is just plain irresponsible.



Shaggy said:


> Besides I imagine the judge would take into account why she lost her job.


You have a great imagination, but that's not reality.


----------



## Shaggy

lenzi said:


> What's more likely is that if she loses her job (as compared to quitting) the courts will NOT say "you lost the job because of the affair, it's your fault so no support". Courts do not consider infidelity when making these sorts of rulings.
> 
> What the courts would likely do, is that since was fired rather than quitting, and she therefore has no income- they will rule that poor John will now have support payments to make until and unless his wife goes and gets another job, which may be more difficult since she was terminated from her previous job and lets face it the economy isn't in a good place right now and lets face it if she's getting a monthly support check which allows her to sit on her a$$ or spend more time with the OM, she won't exactly be running to the mailbox with resumes.
> 
> So in answer to your rather faulty logic filled post, the most likely scenario is "he exposes, she gets fired, he pays spousal support".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If someone is employed, and is getting divorced, and subsequently quits their job to avoid paying support, the courts will likely hold them to the same income standard that they had prior to voluntarily relinquishing their employment.
> 
> I know you're trying to be helpful but you are obviously not aware of the costly ramifications, and your advice to the Op on this thread should be disregarded- unless revenge is more important to him than financial considerations.


So of the BS got themselves fired instead of quitting they'd be covered then by your logic?

Sorry, but your logic is very fatalistic. You paint a picture of the BS being without any options, yet the WS has complete freedom and no consequences.

By your logic, if the WS was being discovered and fired because of shy reason , it would be the BSs best interest to walk onto HR and lie and cover up the affair to protect the WS.

Sorry, don't agree.

Judges are not automatons, they do listen to facts and the details and judge based on the situation.


----------



## Shaggy

lenzi said:


> Not sure where you get this crazy idea that exposing your soon to be exspouse and getting them fired equates to voluntarily quitting your job to avoid paying spousal support but it's just plain wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I pay $4000 in spousal support for an exwife that could maybe get a job making 2/3 of that amount- and she hasn't tried in over 6 years, for reasons that should be obvious. You don't know what the Op makes or what his soon to be ex spouse is capable of earning so to make statements like "she won't make as much in alimony as she would if she was working" is just plain irresponsible.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a great imagination, but that's not reality.


Why didn't you get yourself fired during the D, then you'd be able to pay nothing?


----------



## lenzi

turnera said:


> He'll have support payments until she gets another job. And then he goes BACK to court and has them removed. In the meantime, POSOM dumped her for the hassle and risk to his job.


For me, it wouldn't be worth the hassle and expense of paying her support for whatever number of years she was unemployed and then having to pay an attorney to go back to court later on. Plus of course the expense of going to court the first time to fight the modification of support petition since she lost her job.

I have better things to do with my time and money. 

But maybe it's worth it to the Op.

Occasionally I read articles about how some high conflict couples just can't stay out of court, years after the divorce they're in front of a judge fighting over some trivial matter, spending thousands in attorneys fees, having to miss work to sit in a courtroom all day, the litigation just perpetually feeds the anger like a vicious cycle.

Let it go. Let her go. Move on with your life and stop caring about what she's doing to who and get yourself healthy.


----------



## lenzi

Shaggy said:


> Why didn't you get yourself fired during the D, then you'd be able to pay nothing?


I'm self employed.

Besides-

I've still got plenty to live on after paying the support. Better than having nothing.

Also I'm not one to shirk responsibility.


----------



## Shaggy

lenzi said:


> I'm self employed.
> 
> Besides-
> 
> I've still got plenty to live on after paying the support. Better than having nothing.
> 
> Also I'm not one to shirk responsibility.


Well it sounds by your logic that the OP should be getting himself fired immediately, then help cover up his wife's affair at her work, and then asking for full support from her then?


----------



## MarriedTex

A Cheaterville post that quietly gets embedded in the OM's Google search results could make it more difficult for OM to find a new job once he gets tossed out of work following post-D exposure.

A nice little digital land mine to plant now that could have impact later.


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

There are many presumptions flying around right now about alimony and family law. Has the actual state that OP lives in been posted? If so apologies, I do not recall seeing the name of the state.


----------



## lenzi

Shaggy said:


> So of the BS got themselves fired instead of quitting they'd be covered then by your logic?


If they could make a solid case that they lost their job through no means of their own, that could constitute a significant change of circumstances and be grounds for support adjustment, while a person who quits their job to avoid support will likely be held to the same standard of income they had prior to quitting. That's the law in most states.



Shaggy said:


> Sorry, but your logic is very fatalistic. You paint a picture of the BS being without any options, yet the WS has complete freedom and no consequences.


Typical scenario. 

Hard working bradwinner husband doesn't give wife the attention she needs. She's home all day, doing housework, caring for the kids, she starts to get bored. She goes and has an affair, ultimately they divorce, he pays her spousal and child support and with the little he's got left he can barely afford an apartment or a couch at a friend or relative's house.

She and the affair partner move in together and he pays her support while the other man cuts his lawn with his mower.

Happens all the time. 



Shaggy said:


> By your logic, if the WS was being discovered and fired because of shy reason , it would be the BSs best interest to walk onto HR and lie and cover up the affair to protect the WS.


That's absurd.



Shaggy said:


> Judges are not automatons, they do listen to facts and the details and judge based on the situation.


The courts in most cases are compelled to distribute money and assets evenly. For the most part they do a good job. If one spouse is the moneymaker, they ultimately pay a chunk of that money to support their exspouse and any dependent children.

The courts in most cases are compelled to not consider adultery when making these financial awards.

That's the law. 

Judges do listen but they are bound to some degree and they can also come out with some completely crazy rulings.

Why put yourself in that position?


----------



## turnera

All the more reason to out the OM and remove him from the equation.


----------



## Doyle

Hey John sorry for you mate and what everyone says is good advice, but I just want to tell you this you have to start over at 47 and it sucks sure. 
But given the ages of your kids you were going to face big changes soon any way.
Your wife -if he wanted her she'd have gone - he doesn't want her. (is that the karma bus a coming)
Tell your kids especially the eldest why the divorce is going on.
Take her for anything you can get and give nothing.
Start your new life now -going out,gym etc

Stay in touch mate and good luck.


----------



## Dyokemm

lenzi,

I see your point completely, though I would never personally follow the path you lay out.

I think its a very personal choice with no 'right' or 'wrong' answer. It boils down to what an individual BS can live with.

Personally, I don't put a dollar amount on my personal pride and self-esteem. Its not for sale at any price.

If I were in John's position, I would wreck as much destruction on the OM as I possibly could. This POS just ruined his family's life and existence (at least for the foreseeable future)!

And I would give 2 s**ts if this cost my WW her job in the process. Her future would mean squat to me, as I would be divorcing her so fast she would not know what hit her.


----------



## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> lenzi,
> 
> I see your point completely, though I would never personally follow the path you lay out.
> 
> I think its a very personal choice with no 'right' or 'wrong' answer. It boils down to what an individual BS can live with.
> 
> Personally, I don't put a dollar amount on my personal pride and self-esteem. Its not for sale at any price.
> 
> If I were in John's position, I would wreck as much destruction on the OM as I possibly could. This POS just ruined his family's life and existence (at least for the foreseeable future)!
> 
> And I would give 2 s**ts if this cost my WW her job in the process. Her future would mean squat to me, as I would be divorcing her so fast she would not know what hit her.


Right it's a personal decision. I would out both of them but if the court is so skewed against him he becomes a debt slave to her, ugh. It's what John can live with and what's best for the two kids, boy is she a selfish biotch.


----------



## turnera

Do her parents know the truth? Siblings?


----------



## Iver

Hopefully John can get alimony from his STBXW. I'd follow his lawyers advice. Once divorced he can follow up with HR.

The children need to be told very clearly what happened and why you are initiating the divorce.

Also, don't hesitate to see your doctor if this all is too much - anti-anxiety & depression medication is there for a reason.

If at all possible join a crossfit gym or start MMA/Krav...something to get you doing hardcore exercise. It can really help with stress and anxiety as well. (plus it'll whip you into shape - your next girlfriend who'll be prettier and younger than the STBXW will appreciate it.)


----------



## lenzi

Dyokemm said:


> Personally, I don't put a dollar amount on my personal pride and self-esteem. Its not for sale at any price.


Do you think it's possible to maintain your personal pride and self esteem without going ballistic and exposing and all of that? 

How about the people who don't post here after their spouse cheated because they simply walk away and say to themselves "someone else can have that loser cheating w***e, they did me a favor by saving me every day for the rest of my life by taking that loser off my hands" and just moves on with their life?



Dyokemm said:


> If I were in John's position, I would wreck as much destruction on the OM as I possibly could. This POS just ruined his family's life and existence (at least for the foreseeable future)!


Again you don't typically see them posting here because they aren't looking to reconcile with their cheater and they don't need emotional support because they're able to move on with their lives and put the cheater and everything connected to them in the past, but sometimes we see a post by a cheater who comes here and regrets the affair and wants to win the betrayed spouse back but that betrayed spouse has moved on silently and filed for divorce without all that exposure stuff. I don't think those walkway betrayed spouses lack respect and self esteem, I think they have earned _greater_ respect by taking the high road and simply moving on without all the revenge stuff that seems to show they've been blown away by it all and they can't let go.

"You destroyed ME so I will destroy YOU" versus "See ya, I've got a better life without you, I can't be bothered with you anymore, goodbye and good luck with your new friend, have a great life!"



Dyokemm said:


> And I would give 2 s**ts if this cost my WW her job in the process. Her future would mean squat to me, as I would be divorcing her so fast she would not know what hit her.


Of course her future would mean squat to you, but this isn't about her future it's about the next few years where the Op might have to pay for the affair out of his own pocket.


----------



## WyshIknew

lenzi said:


> Do you think it's possible to maintain your personal pride and self esteem without going ballistic and exposing and all of that?
> 
> How about the people who don't post here after their spouse cheated because they simply walk away and say to themselves "someone else can have that loser cheating w***e, they did me a favor by saving me every day for the rest of my life by taking that loser off my hands" and just moves on with their life?
> 
> 
> 
> Again you don't typically see them posting here because they aren't looking to reconcile with their cheater and they don't need emotional support because they're able to move on with their lives and put the cheater and everything connected to them in the past, but sometimes we see a post by a cheater who comes here and regrets the affair and wants to win the betrayed spouse back but that betrayed spouse has moved on silently and filed for divorce without all that exposure stuff. I don't think those walkway betrayed spouses lack respect and self esteem, I think they have earned _greater_ respect by taking the high road and simply moving on without all the revenge stuff that seems to show they've been blown away by it all and they can't let go.
> 
> "You destroyed ME so I will destroy YOU" versus "See ya, I've got a better life without you, I can't be bothered with you anymore, goodbye and good luck with your new friend, have a great life!"
> 
> 
> 
> Of course her future would mean squat to you, but this isn't about her future it's about the next few years where the Op might have to pay for the affair out of his own pocket.


To a large extent I agree with you Lenzi. I just feel that sometimes you just can't 'walk away'. 

What happens the next time someone comes sniffing around your SO? Would you walk away again?
Somebody transgresses against you in some other manner and it is inconvenient in time and money to do something about it?

I just think that sometimes you have to take a stand.

I understand your point, and if the BS can genuinely put their hand on their heart and say to themselves "someone else can have that loser cheating w***e, they did me a favor by saving me every day for the rest of my life by taking that loser off my hands"

(And communicate that point of view to the WS and AP) then fine. The best revenge is living a good life.

But if your sole reason is that it might be monetarily inconvenient or difficult for the divorce then you reap what you sow.


----------



## WyshIknew

And ultimately, what I, Lenzi, Shaggy or anyone else would do is immaterial.

John/Ross must do what he needs to do to recover from this and move on in life.


----------



## lenzi

WyshIknew said:


> Somebody transgresses against you in some other manner and it is inconvenient in time and money to do something about it?
> 
> But if your sole reason is that it might be monetarily inconvenient or difficult for the divorce then you reap what you sow.


Time and money are usually one's most valuable assets.

Divorce attorneys love the clients that want to fight just to get even with their ex-spouse. They can be guaranteed they will be busy with all sorts of affadavits, petitions, and court appearances for years to come. To those lucky attorneys clients like these are their meal tickets.

Yes, you reap what you sow.

Whether you say to yourself "I'm going to do everything I can to minimize the expense of this inevitable divorce and get this person out of my life as soon as possible because they are not worth the trouble.

As compared to:

"I'm going to nuke her life and the OMs life and cause them as much damage as I can because they wronged me and I don't care about the consequences because it's not fair how I've been treated and this is the only way to recoup my self esteem!".



WyshIknew said:


> And ultimately, what I, Lenzi, Shaggy or anyone else would do is immaterial.
> 
> John/Ross must do what he needs to do to recover from this and move on in life.


Well of course. We are not John/Ross. We can only advise him on what we think is his best course of action based on our experiences. Our experiences and our opinions vary widely and I just want to do my part to make sure he doesn't only hear "expose her even if it means she loses her job".


----------



## WyshIknew

So.

Is your way the only correct and sensible way then Lenzi?


----------



## lenzi

WyshIknew said:


> So.
> 
> Is your way the only correct and sensible way then Lenzi?


If John/Ross wants to extricate himself from his cheating wife as quickly and inexpensively as possible and move on with his life, then yes.

If John/Ross must go ballistic and go nuclear and expose and cause his soontobe exwife and the OM as much misery as possible because that's the only way he can cope and he's not concerned with trivial matters such as alimony for years to come, then my way is not the correct and sensible way.


----------



## LongWalk

lenzi said:


> If John/Ross wants to extricate himself from his cheating wife as quickly and inexpensively as possible and move on with his life, then yes.
> 
> If John/Ross must go ballistic and go nuclear and expose and cause his soontobe exwife and the OM as much misery as possible because that's the only way he can cope and he's not concerned with trivial matters such as alimony for years to come, then my way is not the correct and sensible way.


Look are Eric415, he did not expose to take into consideration the alimony issue. In the end he will probably have to pay anyway. Getting back at the POS boss dude in psychologically important.


----------



## lenzi

LongWalk said:


> Look are Eric415, he did not expose to take into consideration the alimony issue. In the end he will probably have to pay anyway. Getting back at the POS boss dude in psychologically important.


Do you have a link I'd like to check that thread out.

Also just because he might have to pay doesn't mean that he wouldn't have paid more if his wife had lost her job. 

What that tells me is that there was a person who did strongly consider the alimony ramifications of exposing and costing an exspouse a job.


----------



## just got it 55

WyshIknew said:


> To a large extent I agree with you Lenzi. I just feel that sometimes you just can't 'walk away'.
> 
> What happens the next time someone comes sniffing around your SO? Would you walk away again?
> Somebody transgresses against you in some other manner and it is inconvenient in time and money to do something about it?
> 
> I just think that sometimes you have to take a stand.
> 
> I understand your point, and if the BS can genuinely put their hand on their heart and say to themselves "someone else can have that loser cheating w***e, they did me a favor by saving me every day for the rest of my life by taking that loser off my hands"
> 
> (And communicate that point of view to the WS and AP) then fine. The best revenge is living a good life.
> 
> But if your sole reason is that it might be monetarily inconvenient or difficult for the divorce then you reap what you sow.


At this point for John it is all about the making the most of his energys. To use it 100% in a positive manor. To gain control of his life.To use all energy to that end.Hate and bitterness will only take away from that.He will serve his children's and his own interest best in this way.


----------



## LongWalk

lenzi said:


> Do you have a link I'd like to check that thread out.
> 
> Also just because he might have to pay doesn't mean that he wouldn't have paid more if his wife had lost her job.
> 
> What that tells me is that there was a person who did strongly consider the alimony ramifications of exposing and costing an exspouse a job.


eric

He did not want her to lose her job because that would have made alimony heavier. However, he thought that she would decline alimony altogether. But she reneged on the deal.

Sometimes exposing is not good but you have to carefully consider the situation. Alimony is only one factor.


----------



## Dyokemm

lenzi,

To answer your questions for me personally, no I would not just quietly walk away in a dignified manner.

I am a vindictive person to people who have wronged me.

I do not do injury to others, and I absolutely refuse to tolerate it being done to me.

That is not to say I view my personal beliefs as 'right' or better than another person's.

We are individuals who each have to find a path through life that best suits our own values and ideas.

I do not know if John leans more towards your view or my own. But I know this from life.

If you ever fail to follow through on an action in life that seems just and right to you out of some sense of fear or because of the advice of an attorney (who's primary agenda is resolving a legal issue as quickly and easily as possible and NOT your sense of justice), then it will to some extent eat at you with regret the rest of your life.

You can always make more money, but you NEVER get a chance to go back in time and remake decisions to make up for regrets in the future.


----------



## lenzi

Dyokemm said:


> lenzi,
> 
> To answer your questions for me personally, no I would not just quietly walk away in a dignified manner.
> 
> If you ever fail to follow through on an action in life that seems just and right to you out of some sense of fear or because of the advice of an attorney (who's primary agenda is resolving a legal issue as quickly and easily as possible and NOT your sense of justice), then it will to some extent eat at you with regret the rest of your life.
> 
> You can always make more money, but you NEVER get a chance to go back in time and remake decisions to make up for regrets in the future.


I admire your fortitude and strength of character. 

Having been through an ugly expensive divorce that took years to resolve, and over $200k in combined legal fees, and I'm still paying support 6 years later, I'd do anything to avoid it again and if I found myself in a situation where I had to choose between 1) making my wife miserable and doing so cost me a lot of money and years of back and forth in court and writing support checks or 2) cutting the cord and getting rid of her without 'getting even', my choice would be uniquivocally number (2) and I would have no problem doing that nor reflecting back on my choice years later and I'd sleep well at night.


----------



## LongWalk

Economic self destruction is dumb but psychological self destruction is also not so smart. John has been dealt a wretched wound by his wife. He is partially to blame for not doing anything about it. His wife's trips were possible because he was not vigilant. However, his wife deceived him, gaslighted him for three years.

How can he just take that in his stride and not strike back? Who wouldn't feel better with a Cheaterville post. POSOM will not like being exposed online.

It may or may not lead to his wife's dismissal. The company could be afraid of a lawsuit from her.

The off chance that OM will marry his stbxw is an incentive.


----------



## Dyokemm

lenzi,

I do believe that is the best path for you and am truly happy that you are at peace with it. That's the key.

I can sleep perfectly content after completely messing up some one's life situation because they f**ked with me first.

I have many friends who cannot do this. Even though they have been wronged, they still feel guilty for trashing some one else's life.

It doesn't bother me in the least.


----------



## Iver

It's not an easy question to answer but keep in mind the effect potential alimony for the OP will have on his children.

I'm assuming joint custody, so if his wife is paying him ~ $500 a month (just a guess here) that can materially impact his lifestyle with his children.

It's not just his feelings that are at issue here - he still has to be a parent and unfortunately that could mean it is in his childrens best interest to not go nuclear...just yet.


----------



## lenzi

Iver said:


> keep in mind the effect potential alimony for the OP will have on his children.
> 
> I'm assuming joint custody, so if his wife is paying him ~ $500 a month (just a guess here) that can materially impact his lifestyle with his children.
> 
> It's not just his feelings that are at issue here - he still has to be a parent and unfortunately that could mean it is in his childrens best interest to not go nuclear...just yet.


Good point. I didn't realize she makes a lot more than he does but he says it right in his first post.

So if she's fired, and has trouble getting another job- not only will he potentially lose support she would be paying him but the kids would also suffer due to the decreased income.

If for nothing else, keep it civil and don't jeopardize her income for the good of the children. You can say that you did the right thing for your kids and you can still come away with self esteem and a few bucks in support every month.

I know you're hurt and you may want revenge as other posters have suggested, but your family is already being torn apart you really don't want to turn devastation into complete and utter destruction just so you can feel better about yourself.



LongWalk said:


> The off chance that OM will marry his stbxw is an incentive.


An incentive to do what exactly?


----------



## Dyokemm

Iver,

That very well might be how John will view this situation, and that's fine.

I would only caution him to make SURE he wanted this path.

Like I said, nothing is worse then looking back on life several years into the future and regretting that you didn't take a different path. 

Especially since the economic situation you think you see today could very well turn out to be a minor or immaterial consideration by that time.

Ten years ago, 500 dollars a month would have been a very significant consideration for me. Today, it is a much smaller deal because my financial position is so much better.


----------



## Iver

Dyokemm said:


> Iver,
> 
> 
> Ten years ago, 500 dollars a month would have been a very significant consideration for me. Today, it is a much smaller deal because my financial position is so much better.



I think this is valid point but his youngest child is only 12. At that age with all the turmoil the child is going to be experiencing the OP doesn't have the luxury of time. (both kids probably should be scheduled for IC once the **** hits the fan as well)

He's also mentioned his job isn't one that has much potential for greater earnings.

If children weren't involved this would be a no brainer for me as well. (actually I can't say what I'd do 'cause I'd be banned for life on TAM)


----------



## See_Listen_Love

just got it 55 said:


> At this point for John it is all about the making the most of his energys. To use it 100% in a positive manor. To gain control of his life.To use all energy to that end.Hate and bitterness will only take away from that.He will serve his children's and his own interest best in this way.


:iagree:


On the issue of starting all over again at 47:

You need to recover now, but I can assure you that starting over is the lowest of all the new roads there are to follow. There are many new and better possibilities ahead, you will start to design a new future for yourself, .....if you want. But that is for later. Keep this other way of viewing in your backpocket, and start a new thread in a couple of months.

But start bodybuilding and running for now to let your body help your mind process things.


----------



## WyshIknew

Well I don't see it as hate and bitterness. I call it making a stand for what I believe in.

If you are going to roll over every time someone does something to you, expect to get trodden on.

I exposed and also told possible OM I would punch his face in if he touched my wife.

I regret some things I did at that time (20+ years ago and still married) but do not regret exposing.

Lenzi, I get what you're saying, I really do. But it doesn't work for everyone.
Just because you ended up with a bitter acrimonious divorce does not mean that everyone will end up with the same. A does not necessarily equal B. Some people are just nasty and bitter and no matter what you do they will be nasty and try to screw you over.

I haven't read your back story but I assume that you exposed and regretted it as the divorce process went nuclear.

I exposed and saved my marriage.

Different situations different outcomes. There is no one size fits all solution.


I believe there are one or two lawyers that post regularly here, although they are not involved in family law. BK23 maybe?

What is their informed opinion on exposure? Before divorce, after divorce or never?

Also I seem to remember that one of the lady posters hubbies, perhaps Turnera or alte Dame used to act in some sort of capacity in these kind of instances and used to judge/mediate/advise.

In their opinion is there any substantial difference in exposing while still married or after the divorce.


----------



## LongWalk

lenzi said:


> Good point. I didn't realize she makes a lot more than he does but he says it right in his first post.
> 
> So if she's fired, and has trouble getting another job- not only will he potentially lose support she would be paying him but the kids would also suffer due to the decreased income.
> 
> If for nothing else, keep it civil and don't jeopardize her income for the good of the children. You can say that you did the right thing for your kids and you can still come away with self esteem and a few bucks in support every month.
> 
> I know you're hurt and you may want revenge as other posters have suggested, but your family is already being torn apart you really don't want to turn devastation into complete and utter destruction just so you can feel better about yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> An incentive to do what exactly?


Expose to kill the relationship and prevent POSOM from becoming stepdad


----------



## JCD

lenzi said:


> Whether you say to yourself "I'm going to do everything I can to minimize the expense of this inevitable divorce and get this person out of my life as soon as possible because they are not worth the trouble.
> 
> As compared to:
> 
> "I'm going to nuke her life and the OMs life and cause them as much damage as I can because they wronged me and I don't care about the consequences because it's not fair how I've been treated and this is the only way to recoup my self esteem!".


Do you know what is really expensive and time consuming? Criminal justice. I mean...cops, cars, prisons, DA's, public defenders, COURTS!

All that crap is *EXPENSIVE!* 

And TEDIOUS. I mean...it generally takes MONTHS to prosecute a bad guy. And the economic loss of his labor to his family...I mean, putting a guy away really ruins his family a lot of time.

It would be much cheaper and less time consuming to spend all that on insurance. Just...let the burglary victim walk away "You know what...my next T.V. will be bigger and newer! I won't waste my time trying to put you behind bars..."

But we don't do that.

You see...civilization has a price tag. Being able to have a measure of trust and respect for your fellow man has a much larger gain than the price spent. But it only works if you punish people who break the social norms.

Now...the pain and damage done by infidelity is a much harder thing to quantify. When it comes to the spouses...I'm happen to be in your camp. See...they DO feel it. They get labeled a cheater. They get divorced. Their lifestyle takes a distinct hit. The kids suffer. Parents tsk at their adult children. Their investment of time and effort in the relationship...it's wasted.

BUT...these single guys who have nothing to lose. They go out looking for married chicks to bang with no emotional obligation. They are the corporate raiders of relationships, taking the cream off the jug and leaving skim milk behind. Ever drink skim milk? Sucks.

THESE people need to feel some pain. They take advantage of civilization. They aren't just deadbeats, they are wasters.

So yeah...sometimes it costs. I would prefer NOT to encourage such behavior. Or maybe you like living in a world where you need to watch your relationship constantly to make sure that some Lothario doesn't through sly words turn your wife's head. And even if he doesn't skim into her panties, he might say things that damage your relationship in the attempt.

I think it's worth a bit of time and money to send a message to gentlemen who indulge in such practices.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

John(russ101),

I hope you're doing all right. I know I was one of the posters that was hammering on you in this thread. I really did mean well and had your best interests at heart.

I know this has, is and will be, the toughest thing that you've ever had to go through in your life. I do sympathize with you and just wanted you to know that there are better days out there, somewhere. You will find them. It's just going to take some time.

You are in my thoughts.


----------



## LongWalk

> ..it generally takes MONTHS to prosecute a bad guy. And the economic loss of his labor to his family...I mean, putting a guy away really ruins his family a lot of time.
> 
> It would be much cheaper and less time consuming to spend all that on insurance. Just...let the burglary victim walk away "You know what...my next T.V. will be bigger and newer! I won't waste my time trying to put you behind bars..."
> 
> *But we don't do that.*
> 
> You see...civilization has a price tag. Being able to have a measure of trust and respect for your fellow man has a much larger gain than the price spent. But it only works if you punish people who break the social norms.
> 
> Now...the pain and damage done by infidelity is a much harder thing to quantify. When it comes to the spouses...I'm happen to be in your camp. See...they DO feel it. They get labeled a cheater. They get divorced. Their lifestyle takes a distinct hit. The kids suffer. Parents tsk at their adult children. Their investment of time and effort in the relationship...it's wasted.
> 
> BUT...these single guys who have nothing to lose. They go out looking for married chicks to bang with no emotional obligation. They are the corporate raiders of relationships, taking the cream off the jug and leaving skim milk behind. Ever drink skim milk? Sucks.
> 
> THESE people need to feel some pain. They take advantage of civilization. They aren't just deadbeats, they are wasters.
> 
> So yeah...sometimes it costs. I would prefer NOT to encourage such behavior. Or maybe you like living in a world where you need to watch your relationship constantly to make sure that some Lothario doesn't through sly words turn your wife's head. And even if he doesn't skim into her panties, he might say things that damage your relationship in the attempt.
> 
> I think it's worth a bit of time and money to send a message to gentlemen who indulge in such practices.


:iagree: JCD,
Here you put your finger on the essential argument. What is civilization and how much are we willing to pay for it? Prior to the invention of birth control, antibiotics, agriculture, the general attitude towards infidelity was much harder. It was criminal. Even a few decades ago Irish women were locked up in laundries run by the Catholic church because they were "loose". They were prisoners because their sexuality threatened society.

Lady Chatterley's Lover was a banned book. Today children with iPhones can see all sorts of stuff. Parents literally cannot block all of it.

Lawmakers have given up on the idea of criminalizing adultery. Too expensive to deal with it. Courts discussing people fooking around are not really possible. Look at all bankers who robbed society. The government just gave them money to keep the system going.

What makes a family has become much more of a consumerized social construction. Biologically a gay couple cannot have children, people who are infertile did not have them either, but now both can and do. Men can check the DNA or their children.

It's no wonder that complete strangers discuss these things. We don't feel that the setup is fair. Where is the freedom if there is no justice?

That is why John has a tough choice to make.


----------



## bfree

JCD said:


> Do you know what is really expensive and time consuming? Criminal justice. I mean...cops, cars, prisons, DA's, public defenders, COURTS!
> 
> All that crap is *EXPENSIVE!*
> 
> And TEDIOUS. I mean...it generally takes MONTHS to prosecute a bad guy. And the economic loss of his labor to his family...I mean, putting a guy away really ruins his family a lot of time.
> 
> It would be much cheaper and less time consuming to spend all that on insurance. Just...let the burglary victim walk away "You know what...my next T.V. will be bigger and newer! I won't waste my time trying to put you behind bars..."
> 
> But we don't do that.
> 
> You see...civilization has a price tag. Being able to have a measure of trust and respect for your fellow man has a much larger gain than the price spent. But it only works if you punish people who break the social norms.
> 
> Now...the pain and damage done by infidelity is a much harder thing to quantify. When it comes to the spouses...I'm happen to be in your camp. See...they DO feel it. They get labeled a cheater. They get divorced. Their lifestyle takes a distinct hit. The kids suffer. Parents tsk at their adult children. Their investment of time and effort in the relationship...it's wasted.
> 
> BUT...these single guys who have nothing to lose. They go out looking for married chicks to bang with no emotional obligation. They are the corporate raiders of relationships, taking the cream off the jug and leaving skim milk behind. Ever drink skim milk? Sucks.
> 
> THESE people need to feel some pain. They take advantage of civilization. They aren't just deadbeats, they are wasters.
> 
> So yeah...sometimes it costs. I would prefer NOT to encourage such behavior. Or maybe you like living in a world where you need to watch your relationship constantly to make sure that some Lothario doesn't through sly words turn your wife's head. And even if he doesn't skim into her panties, he might say things that damage your relationship in the attempt.
> 
> I think it's worth a bit of time and money to send a message to gentlemen who indulge in such practices.


You know, every now and then the badger kicks azz! Damn fine post and a truth that we all need to remember!


----------



## JCD

(Sniff)

Our low and sensible wide stance makes ass kicking difficult to say the least.

But you should see what I can do to an ankle...


----------



## carmen ohio

Whatever his charitable inclinations, lenzi has done the OP a great service by pointing out the potential financial consequences of exposing his WS and the OM before the divorce is final.

The main purpose of exposing a WS's affair is to end it in order to have a chance to save the marriage. Once the decision is made to divorce instead, it is entirely a personal decision whether to expose or not and, if so, when.

In making that decision, it only makes sense to consider the financial consequences. It also makes sense to take the advice of one's lawyer, whom one is paying for his expertise, over the opinions of strangers who are unfamiliar with local law and judges' proclivities and do not know all the facts.

While I generally agree with the majority viewpoint on CWI, I frankly don't understand the insistence -- almost to the point of becoming vitriolic -- that the BS must expose in all cases. I can only surmise that some people here are so damaged by what happened to them that they have to a degree lost the ability to think rationally about the issue.

I know I'm disagreeing with a lot of people here whom I greatly respect, but I've been thinking about this for a while, wanted to get it out and this seemed as good an opportunity as any. My apologies in advance if I've offended anyone.


----------



## Blue Firefly

I believe there is a compromise position on exposing the affair that will work for the OP.

For now, play nice and work to get the best divorce settlement (financial and otherwise) possible. Let the wife stay in her fantasy fog that about her future with the POSOM. This will motivate her to play ball with the OP to move the divorce along as quickly and smoothly as possible.

Once the ink is dry on the papers and the divorce is complete, *sue the POSOM's/ex-wife's employer for sexual harassment*.

The OP can certainly show damages, and can allege that the company created an atmosphere that encouraged the relationship. Lawyers love breaking new ground. Doesn't a spouse that was damaged by an environment that promoted sexual harassment have some interest too?

The most likely outcome is it would never go to court anyway. The company would simply cut the OP a check to make it all go away.

Of course, they would also want to make the manager that caused the problem to begin with (the POSOM) go away also. Which means he would probably (at the least) lose his job. Making him suddenly very unattractive to the ex-wife (at the least, it would blow up her fantasy fog).


----------



## weightlifter

I just dont see anything worth saving.

She has dissed this guy so hard... COLD.


----------



## Shaggy

The OM used his position as her boss to get her into bed.

The OM has used HUD position at the company to continue contact and continue the affair


They have turned the company and its business travel into their private affair travel system.

And they have done it for years.

And the advice is for the OP to swallow his self respect, put his tale between his legs and just walk away into the night without ever taking action against this?

To in fact take on helping the affair by hiding it, and keeping it secret?

Sorry, but if that's the only option available then it really is a very bleak world where a BS is nothing but a helpless victim with no options.

If you accept bring that way in your life, I do not see how you will ever find happiness because there will always be someone who will bully you and take away what is yours, and could be yours if you stood up for yourself.


Lenzi - I'm sorry your ex beat you, I'm sorry that its left you with a defeated attitude where you feel you had no choice but accept what was handed to you.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Shaggy said:


> The OM used his position as her boss to get her into bed.
> 
> The OM has used HUD position at the company to continue contact and continue the affair
> 
> 
> *They have turned the company and its business travel into their private affair travel system.*
> 
> *And they have done it for years.*


:iagree:

This^^^is the crux of the matter.
I believe that when people are _that_ brazen, they should be made to pay for their transgressions and indiscretions , in cash or time behind bars.


----------



## tom67

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This^^^is the crux of the matter.
> I believe that when people are _that_ brazen, they should be made to pay for their transgressions and indiscretions , in cash or time behind bars.


Yep this was going on for years.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Also agreeing with Shaggy and Caribbean Man. POSOM and OP's wife have not only screwed over John for years (and she has lied to him in the worst possible way while denying him any happiness in the marriage), but they have done it using their work as a cover.

It's a serious breach of ethics and they should be made accountable for it. The only question is timing, before or after the divorce.


----------



## lenzi

Nucking Futs said:


> Dyokemm, I think this whole argument is a waste of time, but if you decide to continue it you're going to need to simplify your argument. I'm not sure how you could, but this one was too much for him.


You don't need to simplify it, just please type a bit slower.


----------



## Shaggy

PreRaphaelite said:


> Also agreeing with Shaggy and Caribbean Man. POSOM and OP's wife have not only screwed over John for years (and she has lied to him in the worst possible way while denying him any happiness in the marriage), but they have done it using their work as a cover.
> 
> It's a serious breach of ethics and they should be made accountable for it. The only question is timing, before or after the divorce.


If he waits until after HR will ignore him completely as a disgruntled former spouse.

Right now he can claim he is trying to save his marriage and is asking for action to support that.

Btw, it's obvious OM views her as just an easy lay that pursues him. If the OM really wanted her, he would not have moved away.

OR

Maybe someone at the company above him saw the affair and gave him an option of taking the transfer or get fired, but now he's coming back either claiming the affair is done or the guy who sent him away has left.

Either way, now is the time to act if you ever intend to.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> If he waits until after HR will ignore him completely as a disgruntled former spouse.
> 
> Right now he can claim he is trying to save his marriage and is asking for action to support that.
> 
> Btw, it's obvious OM views her as just an easy lay that pursues him. If the OM really wanted her, he would not have moved away.
> 
> OR
> 
> Maybe someone at the company above him saw the affair and gave him an option of taking the transfer or get fired, but now he's coming back either claiming the affair is done or the guy who sent him away has left.
> 
> Either way, now is the time to act if you ever intend to.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Nucking Futs

Shaggy said:


> If he waits until after HR will ignore him completely as a disgruntled former spouse.
> 
> Right now he can claim he is trying to save his marriage and is asking for action to support that.
> 
> Btw, it's obvious OM views her as just an easy lay that pursues him. If the OM really wanted her, he would not have moved away.
> 
> OR
> 
> Maybe someone at the company above him saw the affair and gave him an option of taking the transfer or get fired, but now he's coming back either claiming the affair is done or the guy who sent him away has left.
> 
> Either way, now is the time to act if you ever intend to.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Dyokemm

lenzi,

I want to respond to you at the further risk of upsetting PBear because it is so obvious you missed my point.

Things like interstates and dams are public works created by the government because of the problem of free riders. No sane private businessman will do them because it is impossible to avoid the problem of free riders. People who refuse to contribute to my dam project that benefits them (for example) cannot be prevented from enjoying the benefit if I build it. So if I'm a private businessman, I must pass on that idea because of this problem.

That is why they are public works paid for by taxes. Otherwise they wouldn't get built. 

So please don't insult me by questioning whether I know my subject area.


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## Dyokemm

On John's dilemma though, I think if he wants to or needs to expose, he must do it now.

I agree with the other posters that advised if he waits it will be ineffective and blown off by the company.

You have to strike while the iron's hot, as the saying goes.


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## lenzi

Dyokemm said:


> Things like interstates and dams are public works created by the government because of the problem of free riders. No sane private businessman will do them because it is impossible to avoid the problem of free riders. People who refuse to contribute to my dam project that benefits them (for example) cannot be prevented from enjoying the benefit if I build it. So if I'm a private businessman, I must pass on that idea because of this problem.
> 
> That is why they are public works paid for by taxes. Otherwise they wouldn't get built.


Why would a private businessman build a road or a bridge or a damn in the first place? Not trying to insult you- no offense intended, but it's my understanding that private businessmen do things that are intended to earn a profit, such as condominiums or commercial real estate that they subsequently rent out. They don't build things hoping that those who may benefit will make voluntary donations.

Roads and bridges and tunnels and damns and all of that are paid by taxes, and those taxes are paid by those who are going to benefit from these infrastructure improvements.


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## Brokenshadow

lenzi said:


> Why would a private businessman build a road or a bridge or a damn in the first place? Private businessmen do things that earn a profit, such as condominiums and commercial real estate that they subsequently rent out. They don't build things hoping that those who may benefit will make voluntary donations.
> 
> Roads and bridges and tunnels and damns and all of that are paid by taxes, and those taxes are paid by those who are going to benefit from these infrastructure improvements.


Or bid for a government contract, and pad the bill...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

lenzi,

You're right. You can't earn a profit on those things BECAUSE of the problem of free riders. If I could build a dam and then demand and receive payments, with no exceptions, from all those who benefited, then I would be able to earn a profit as a private businessmen.

Now the dam may be a necessary good that really benefits everyone. But private businesses won't do it because of this problem. So it HAS to be the government through taxing everyone.

But the whole economic example I gave is just an analogy I was using to point out the other poster's point to you. (you said you are a businessman, so I hoped it would give you an 'aha' moment)

Social norms are never going to be a public good provided by government. So if decent people in a community want to establish and enforce acceptable standards of behavior it has to come from real social and life consequences, such as wrecking the employment and social standing of WS and the POS APs that engage in adulterous behavior. If there were stiff enough penalties, we would probably have a lot less adultery.

Like all 'goods' in life though, there may be a 'cost' involved to create this (messy divorces, higher alimony, etc...whatever it may be) People who really care about the standard will help to enforce the consequences for this crap when it is in their capacity to do so.

You said it was not something you cared to do. Fair enough, free country. But what the other posters point was is this. You don't want to help create the social setting where WS/AP suffer severe consequences for their choices because you don't see a personal gain from it.

But you are happy to have the rules established by others paying the 'price' so you can benefit from social norms that help discourage these types of s****y circumstances like John finds himself in.


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## tom67

Dyokemm said:


> On John's dilemma though, I think if he wants to or needs to expose, he must do it now.
> 
> I agree with the other posters that advised if he waits it will be ineffective and blown off by the company.
> 
> You have to strike while the iron's hot, as the saying goes.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:I think in this case she took 6 plus years away from him and using the company to do it. He should but I doubt he will.


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## lenzi

Dyokemm said:


> Now the dam may be a necessary good that really benefits everyone. But private businesses won't do it because of this problem. So it HAS to be the government through taxing everyone.


Are we supposed to feel sorry for the private businessman who can't make a whole bunch of money on a construction project, because some residents in the area refuse to pay for a new road or bridge? I'm not seeing a difference- as far as the private citizen is concerned- between paying for a road through taxes versus being compelled to pay a private businessman so he can turn a sizeable profit. 



Dyokemm said:


> But the whole economic example I gave is just an analogy I was using to point out the other poster's point to you. (you said you are a businessman, so I hoped it would give you an 'aha' moment)


No "aha" moment, sorry. All I get from your analogy is that you can never get a large group of people to agree on anything. When it comes to volunteering money, some will do it for the good of the whole, and others will keep it in their pockets and use it for their own needs, some people are generous and freely give to others and recognize that their contributions are for the "greater good", and others don't really care about the greater good. Me? I'd prefer to drive on an old bumpy road and save a few hundred bucks. 



Dyokemm said:


> If there were stiff enough penalties, we would probably have a lot less adultery.


I doubt it. People are driven to do these things by emotions, not logic and common sense. People know if they commit a major crime, and they get caught, they'll go to jail. If it's murder, they could face the death penalty. Do they think to themselves about the consequences when they do it? No- they either don't consider the consequences or they do, but they don't think they'll get caught. Exposing cheaters and getting them fired will not have any significant effect on the amount of cheating that happens down the line for those same reasons- cheaters won't consider the consequences or they'll convince themselves that they won't get caught. Cheating often means the end of a marriage, and that doesn't stop them. I'd think a job loss isn't that much more of a deterrent, maybe it's even less.



Dyokemm said:


> But you are happy to have the rules established by others paying the 'price' so you can benefit from social norms that help discourage these types of s****y circumstances like John finds himself in.


I'm happy about the rules established by others paying the price? What rules have been established by others paying the price that I would not- that benefits me? The bridge/damn analogy doesn't fit because I have paid for those things through tolls and taxes. Give me a concrete example of rules that benefit me that came about by the sacrifices of others so I can get that "aha moment" and I wil thank you for pointing me in the right direction.


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## Rob774

This thread... sooooo disturbing, on so many given levels.

From the beginning, we see certain warning signs, and you hope that they turn out to be nothing, but when you are on page 2 out of 45... you know this wasn't going to have a happy ending.

As readers, we only know John's side of the story. So we are assuming he isn't horribly mistreating her, going upside her head, disrespecting her etc, that lead to her actions. But what we do know, according to John anyway, that his wife was basically witholding love to her husband, because he wasn't a powerful enough bread winner. 

What type of sh\t is that??? 
Who says that to someone they love???

She rarely makes love to him, and when she does, its robotic, obligatory, no passion at all. But you know who got her passion... the guy who's making bank. And had nerve to let this guy hit it raw. I bet you anything, she made him, her own husband use condoms, while this guy was splashing up inside of her everytime.

And then she has nerve to tell him she loves him. This is the ultimate betrayal, not only was she cheating on him physically, she was abusing him mentally as well. Shame on her! I hope she has sleepless nights, wondering if her selfishness is worth it, as she ages into her 50's and finally begins to miss what's its life to sit beside a person who truly loves you for yourself.

Good Luck John!


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## LostViking

Hope he comes back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

Well lenzi,

We will never see eye to eye on this. That's fine though. No hard feelings here. As I said earlier, its a free country, and its a great and wonderful thing that we can all go about our lives making the choices that seem best to us.

But I'm not sure I agree with you on the consequences thing.

After all, how many more APs would physically have the s**t beat out of them by the BS if there were no consequences for it? A lot more I think.

Severe consequences do make us rethink our choices. I'm not saying it would end ALL adultery. No matter what, some people would still engage in it for the motivations you correctly stated. That's human nature.

But I think it would be far fewer if their was more serious blowback to engaging in cheating.

Just as there are still some people who physically attack the AP. But most don't because they know its not worth the consequences (we usually...lol)


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## lenzi

Dyokemm said:


> But I'm not sure I agree with you on the consequences thing.
> 
> After all, how many more APs would physically have the s**t beat out of them by the BS if there were no consequences for it? A lot more I think.


I guess if every cheater got the living hell beat out of them some cheaters would be discouraged from cheating. Hard to say if it would be a lot of cheaters or only a few. But that won't happen because most betrayed partners know that they'll be prosecuted for assault, and/or they'd lose the fight. Sometimes the affair partner is the stronger of the two..



Dyokemm said:


> Severe consequences do make us rethink our choices. I'm not saying it would end ALL adultery. No matter what, some people would still engage in it for the motivations you correctly stated. That's human nature.


True, it's a deterrent for some- probably many or most people, and you're right there would be a lot more crime if there were no prisons. 



Dyokemm said:


> But I think it would be far fewer if their was more serious blowback to engaging in cheating.


Isn't the loss of a marriage, a downward standard of living, loss of a loving spouse, full access to the children and about 1/2 of one's assets a significant deterrent? Sure the possibility of a job loss (in a work related affair only) and maybe the threat of a beat down would be additional incentive, but a cheater has plenty to lose even without all of that and we're still talking about what.. close to 50% of married partners cheat? 

I don't see any easy answers and it's impossible to say whether threat of exposure or job loss would have a huge effect on this problem. 

My solution is to never get married again and if there's another life after this one (being facetious here), then I won't get married a first time. I'll be with my partner for as long as things are good and if things turn bad and we can't or won't fix it, we go our separate ways rather than being locked into something that is so difficult to get out of that cheating becomes a viable option.


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## treyvion

Rob774 said:


> This thread... sooooo disturbing, on so many given levels.
> 
> From the beginning, we see certain warning signs, and you hope that they turn out to be nothing, but when you are on page 2 out of 45... you know this wasn't going to have a happy ending.
> 
> As readers, we only know John's side of the story. So we are assuming he isn't horribly mistreating her, going upside her head, disrespecting her etc, that lead to her actions. But what we do know, according to John anyway, that his wife was basically witholding love to her husband, because he wasn't a powerful enough bread winner.
> 
> What type of sh\t is that???
> Who says that to someone they love???
> 
> She rarely makes love to him, and when she does, its robotic, obligatory, no passion at all. But you know who got her passion... the guy who's making bank. And had nerve to let this guy hit it raw. I bet you anything, she made him, her own husband use condoms, while this guy was splashing up inside of her everytime.
> 
> And then she has nerve to tell him she loves him. This is the ultimate betrayal, not only was she cheating on him physically, she was abusing him mentally as well. Shame on her! I hope she has sleepless nights, wondering if her selfishness is worth it, as she ages into her 50's and finally begins to miss what's its life to sit beside a person who truly loves you for yourself.
> 
> Good Luck John!


It's obvious she was running a system. The husband doesn't necessarily need to be the top guy. He's just reliable support.


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## Acabado

Can we stop beating this horse?

Hope you are doing better John.


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## russ101

Sorry haven't checked in for a few days. I have just been depressed. Wife is still promising me it is over, and says she will do whatever it takes to stay married. I really feel like the OM has dumped her to some degree and that is the reason she is even entertaining the idea. I know that she is still texting him, but I see he rarely responses. For better or worse, I filed and she has 6 months to try and change my mind. But in my head I am done. I could never trust her again. Am going to follow lawyers advice and wait to tell her company. 
Thanks for all the replies. I will survive. This happens to people all the time. By the way, my oldest knows and he is ok with it all, but still have not told the youngest yet, but will this week.


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## seasalt

I hope you understand that it's not over when she is still texting him. Stay the course on your divorce plans.

Seasalt


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## CEL

She stole 6 years of your life and is STILL texting the man!!! Come on really and you say she has 6 months to change your mind? Ummm if she is still texting him it is not over not even close. All you are setting yourself up for is a false R. I know you say you are done but how are your interactions with her? Have you read the 180? The 180 is to help you move on and stop the bleeding. 

How is she going to try to MAKE it up to you? What steps is she taking?


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## movin on

Your wife had you at parties and get togethers that he was also attending? So I guess she liked humiliating you as well. And she said she would be more into you if you made more money? My w ex BFF did the same thing with her h . And he is totally miserable. You will be better off without her. Also expose to his employer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55

russ101 said:


> Sorry haven't checked in for a few days. I have just been depressed. Wife is still promising me it is over, and says she will do whatever it takes to stay married. I really feel like the OM has dumped her to some degree and that is the reason she is even entertaining the idea. I know that she is still texting him, but I see he rarely responses. For better or worse, I filed and she has 6 months to try and change my mind. But in my head I am done. I could never trust her again. Am going to follow lawyers advice and wait to tell her company.
> Thanks for all the replies. I will survive. This happens to people all the time. By the way, my oldest knows and he is ok with it all, but still have not told the youngest yet, but will this week.


What does it mean your oldest is OK with it OK with what ?

John Please consider this. You cannot even think about reconciliation with your wife unless she acknowledges what she has done to you. Six years think of it six years she took from you. Not just the love and intimacy withheld, but the six years she humiliated you. 


It would have been more merciful to just leave six years ago. Six years of pain that could have been avoided and you could have moved on then six years younger. It’s unimaginable cruelty that’s beyond comprehension. Six years God Dam It. Six years of lies. Six years of betrayal. Six years of torture. Six years needlessly wasted. All she had to do was leave six years ago.


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## LongWalk

John,

Cheaterville for POSOM. As long as you do not put your wife's name in the post, the company will have no basis to dismiss her. But if they do, let her face the music.

I think many are willing to believe in honest R attempts, especially when children are involved. In your situation, don't you think it will be unbearable looking at her day after day, thinking about the things she said and did?

Divorce cake?


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## Will_Kane

russ101 said:


> I know that she is still texting him, but I see he rarely responses.


Does she tell you she is texting him? 

Does she think you don't know about the recent texting?


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## PreRaphaelite

John,

I agree with your intuitions about the situation. Her commitment to saving the marriage is due to the OM's dumping her. The fact that she keeps texting him is an indication of just how much in the fog she is and how committed she is to him, not you.

She's still lying. 

You seem like you have a good handle on things now.


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## Acabado

OM didn't even care to dump her, he's just ignoring her texts!
That's the only reason she still claims to be commited, just in case, but obviusly she'd stop talking nonsense if OM dared to respond to her.
Anyway the last six years and the fact she admit to be in love with this POSOM is all i need.

Hanging there friend.


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## 3putt

If I were you, the next time she texted him in front of you I would grab the phone and smash the damned thing against a wall or street...ala Animal House. You could even sheepishly say, "Sorry", and then just walk off.


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## Chaparral

Rob774 said:


> This thread... sooooo disturbing, on so many given levels.
> 
> From the beginning, we see certain warning signs, and you hope that they turn out to be nothing, but when you are on page 2 out of 45... you know this wasn't going to have a happy ending.
> 
> As readers, we only know John's side of the story. So we are assuming he isn't horribly mistreating her, going upside her head, disrespecting her etc, that lead to her actions. But what we do know, according to John anyway, that his wife was basically witholding love to her husband, because he wasn't a powerful enough bread winner.
> 
> What type of sh\t is that???
> Who says that to someone they love???
> 
> She rarely makes love to him, and when she does, its robotic, obligatory, no passion at all. But you know who got her passion... the guy who's making bank. And had nerve to let this guy hit it raw. I bet you anything, she made him, her own husband use condoms, while this guy was splashing up inside of her everytime.
> 
> And then she has nerve to tell him she loves him. This is the ultimate betrayal, not only was she cheating on him physically, she was abusing him mentally as well. Shame on her! I hope she has sleepless nights, wondering if her selfishness is worth it, as she ages into her 50's and finally begins to miss what's its life to sit beside a person who truly loves you for yourself.
> 
> Good Luck John!


 .


I think the not enough money excuse was just a ploy to save herself for the other man. She was having her needs met by him. This is literally one of the worst stories I have read here. He she would have to crawl a long time for me to even speak to her.

John, apologies for posters threadjacking your thread. Fragile egos you know.


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## barbados

CEL said:


> *She stole 6 years of your life and is STILL texting the man!!! Come on really and you say she has 6 months to change your mind? *Ummm if she is still texting him it is not over not even close. All you are setting yourself up for is a false R. I know you say you are done but how are your interactions with her? Have you read the 180? The 180 is to help you move on and stop the bleeding.
> 
> How is she going to try to MAKE it up to you? What steps is she taking?


He just doesn't get it, or just doesn't WANT to get it. He'll take her back, she'll give him a little pity sex to keep him happy, and the first chance she gets she will run back to the POSOM. And if the POSOM is really done with her, she will just find someone else.

Russ/John just doesn't get it. He has devalued himself for so long that nothing any of us can say is going to change things.


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## tom67

barbados said:


> He just doesn't get it, or just doesn't WANT to get it. He'll take her back, she'll give him a little pity sex to keep him happy, and the first chance she gets she will run back to the POSOM. And if the POSOM is really done with her, she will just find someone else.
> 
> Russ/John just doesn't get it. He has devalued himself for so long that nothing any of us can say is going to change things.


Sigh- He needs ic now. I said he should blow it up but sadly he won't. Wish him the best and some clarity.


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## turnera

russ101 said:


> Ife is still promising me *it is over*, and says she will do whatever it takes to stay married.
> 
> I know that *she is still texting him*


You realize this is impossible, right?

Either she is done or she is texting him. 

Sit down, look her in the eyes and say this. Tell her you're heading to the luggage, and you will start packing her stuff, depending on her answer.


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## Acabado

John has filed for D.
While he actually hopes for an epiphany, some sort of magic event which ends this nightmare, he already toke the most necessary step. Sometimes it takes time for reality sink in, after a whole life living with this woman, identifying himself as husband the fact his parter is a ghost, a master gaslighter, a fantasy in his head is hard to grasp despite the damm evidence.


ETA
John never revealed his snooping sources (except for that mutual friend revelation of the leg gropping at the party) since he started monitoring his wife's phone usage. He has been using it to to evaluate her but never confronted her lies and continued contact. Everything he got was due parking lots confession at the polygrapher.


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## LostAndContent

I hope John is doing well and has continued to move toward divorce.


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## missthelove2013

after reading this thread


forget the affair..."I would be more into sex with you if you had a better job and made more momey"...really...is she a fu**ing prostitute??

Wait...she boned her boss...she IS a prostitute...tell me that had NOTHING to do with her fast advancement up the pole...er...ladder...and she has the gall to criticize your career apsirations...hell...tell her if you ever get the chance to advance by boning your boss, you most certainly will

divorce this pos asap imo...dont be a cuckold or a doormat...she has issues beyond keeping her legs closed

sorry to be so brutal, but you deserve better than her


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## WyshIknew

He did post in another thread that he was proceeding with divorce and that his lawyer was predicting a hefty amount of hush money from the firm involved.


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## LongWalk

Can you link it. This thread was torture.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## tom67

LongWalk said:


> Can you link it. This thread was torture.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Try hitting his name and see all threads he posted in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

And yes a lot of us knew there was way more to the story from the beginning. Ick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...should-i-tell-her-employer-5.html#post4278778


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## phillybeffandswiss

See, that's why you talk to a lawyer. Hush money? Wow. It is inline with what happened at my company.


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## 86857

Coming into this thread a bit late but can I ask a stupid question. . . 
Why didn't she pull his hand away immediately?
If any guy did that to me, no matter who he was, he would get a slap across the face. . . unless I was in love with him I suppose. Sigh!


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## Wanting1

********** said:


> Coming into this thread a bit late but can I ask a stupid question. . .
> Why didn't she pull his hand away immediately?
> If any guy did that to me, no matter who he was, he would get a slap across the face. . . unless I was in love with him I suppose. Sigh!


She was having an affair with him. He was her lover, so his hands were not unwelcome...


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## WyshIknew

phillybeffandswiss said:


> See, that's why you talk to a lawyer. Hush money? Wow. It is inline with what happened at my company.


I can't imagine the company are terribly amused with the AP either.

Unless he has a charmed life I can't imagine he will do well at the company in the future. If he still has a job at the company.


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## LongWalk

Russ wrote:



> I have to chime in on this, as it hits very close to home. My wife had a years long affair with her boss (which she assured me were only friends for a long time until I took her to get a poly which she confessed in the parking lot, even after he was transferred) she went to see him 5 or 6 times over a 3 year period and he came up to see her a couple of time too! I'm in the middle of a divorce, which will not be final for 4 months yet, and my lawyer has told me that I should be receiving somewhere between 100-150 thousand to not expose this. I would almost give up the money just to be able to expose, but I could really use this to help raise my children.
> 
> Good luck to you. I'll definitely be pulling for you. I still don't think I know half of what went on, and probably never will, and I'll bet you don't either.


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## phillybeffandswiss

WyshIknew said:


> I can't imagine the company are terribly amused with the AP either.
> 
> Unless he has a charmed life I can't imagine he will do well at the company in the future. If he still has a job at the company.


Let's Just say, the person at my company gets moved around, continues screwing up lives and making money. Almost a decade in and we all PRETEND we don't know why,


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## Dyokemm

Companies truly have no morals.

My dad was a union rep for grocery stores.

He had a case when I was a teenager where a store manager was accused of sexually grabbing and molesting his female employees (married and single).

This was in the days before Anita Hill's testimony so workplace sexual harassment/assault was almost impossible to prosecute legally. So he had to handle the women's complaints as a simple work related complaint under the contract.

The manager was a complete s**tbag, but he was an EARNER for the company.

Their solution...they transferred him to another store.

Point being, never be shocked if a company chooses profits over morals.


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## weightlifter

I remember this one. Hope he is healing.


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