# Serious question for low/no drive spouses.



## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Would you be upset if your partner had an outside lover?
If so, why? 

Full disclosure: I'm not married. There's a good chance I'll ask my current GF to marry me this year or next (though it's such a scary thought!) But I'm definitely not speaking from a position of experience here and I'm not attempting to look like I am. 

I see tons of posts by married men and women who would love to make love to their low/no drive spouse and spend frustrated months, years, and decades without any sexual contact at all. 

Responses are generally sympathetic/empathetic but typically put a dichotomy up - either do things to make your spouse want to have sex with you (men often suggest that other men "man up", women tell men to help around the house or take their wives on more dates; both generally suggest wives take their low-drive husbands to the doctor's), or get a divorce. And most seem to opt for the former, and it seems, from posts here, they do so for years and years and years and often the spouse just continues to say things like "I could go the rest of my life without sex."

But...what IS wrong with taking an outside lover (or visiting 'professionals,' etc), provided that one is able to keep the family stable?

I'd like to know why low/no drive spouses would be opposed to this. 

It reminds me of when I was a kid and we'd give things up for lent. Everyone would laugh when someone would say they were giving up brocolli or homework - because none of us actually wanted to eat brocolli or do homework, it wouldn't really be giving anything up!

If you're not interested in your spouse sexually, do you have any objection to finding someone who is interested in him/her in this way?
I guess there's a 'breaking of a marital vow' - but, like giving up homework for Lent, it's not really a reciprocal sacrifice in any way. 
The primary fear, I guess, is that it WILL break up the family, that the higher drive spouse will leave you or let the affair bleed over into the everyday relations between the spouses. 

Is there anything else that I don't see? 
It just seems like control - "I don't want to have sex with you, but I don't want you to ever have sex with anyone else either." 
And that seems so...tragic. If the low drive spouse doesn't want sex to be part of the marital relationship, why not let sex be part of some extra-marital relationship? It really baffles me. 

I'm not attacking low/no drive spouses. I just want to know why a solution that seems better than divorce or constant nagging/expectations of sex from the low drive spouse is so often rejected out of hand?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I was the higher drive spouse, but I think if nothing else, there's a significant issue with keeping a sexual relationship from becoming emotional as well. Even for us guys. My current GF started off as a NSA relationship, but changed in a period of a couple of months. 

Plus there's the concerns of STD's, pregnancy, time spent away from the family, money (presents, hotels, etc)...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks, PB. 

That seems to go into the 'disrupting the family' vein. Which I definitely get. 

For the $ thing, maybe another way to think about it is "This is a different kind of marital relationship now that I know you're not interested in sex." That is, the expectations need to be mutually adjusted - the high drive spouse can't expect sex from the person he/she loves, the low drive spouse can't expect 100% of the benefits of being married.

Both came into or were in a marriage with slightly different expectations. 

I don't have ANY experience here! Just mulling it over, because, despite how often my drop-dead gorgeous GF initiates sex, I wonder: "Bait and switch that the people on the TAM forum talk about?"


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My point would be that regardless of someone's intentions to not "disrupt the family", emotions develop anyway, and then things get nasty. It all might sound wonderful on the surface, but it falls apart in practice, I think.

Personally, besides the GF I mentioned above... I was in a marriage that was unsatisfying to me with regards to intimacy and sex. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that it was no longer acceptable to me, but that my STBXW wouldn't change. There were other issues involved as well, in our relationship, but the intimacy was a big one. So as I saw it, my options were to try to have my needs met outside the marriage, or to divorce. Foolishly, I picked the first one. And no, I did not ask my wife if it was acceptable to her, as you're suggesting. But I have a pretty good idea what her answer would have been.

In any case, what I found is that it wasn't just the sex that I was missing in my marriage. It was the intimacy and emotional bonding that goes along with the sex. In the end, I decided fairly quickly (within a month) that this wasn't a solution for anything, and separated from my wife. That was almost a year ago. 

I don't know what the answer to your question is. My GF initiates sex, sex talk, intimacy as often as I do. Will she pull a bait and switch on me in the future? Who knows. But what I do know is that I won't sit idly back and tolerate it for as long. I'd get it out in the open, make it clear that we need to work on the problem as a team. If she's not willing to work on it with me to come to a mutually acceptable solution, I'm out.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks, PB. I appreciate the response!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

This solution has been proposed as a solution many times on TAM. 

Here is what is interesting, the way you are asking the question assumes that you will be the one taking advantage of outsourcing. Suppose your spouse took advantage of this option? 

Let's say you are not a satisfactory lover and she had sex with you but was left frustrated. Wouldn't she have a right to find a man who could do it for her and stay with her husband for financial support and family stability? 

It is easy to see this as an option when you think of the advantages for yourself but chances are that you are just as likely to experience your partner bringing in a 3rd party and justifying it. 

I think a better strategy is to resolve to pull out all the stops to prevent emotional and physical estrangement. Be the couple that stays close by avoiding common pitfalls and to learn about how men and women work in relationships. 

Woeful ignorance, stubborness, and selfishness causes most problems. If the problems are insolvable than it is better to resolve the union than bring in a 3rd person to take away time and resources from the family. 

So if you want to accept this as a solution, make sure that you will be ok if your partner takes a lover if you can't perform or if your skills are poor. Many married women are sexually frustrated so if this becomes the norm, I have a feeling more women than men will take advantage. 

I think most men who propose this are thinking of all the advantages for themselves and think that their wives would never avail themselves of the same. Somehow, it does not seem such a great idea of the woman can take a lover too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> Would you be upset if your partner had an outside lover?
> If so, why?


MEM11363 always has it listed in his set of solutions. If you search for his posts, you'll certainly find it.

I suspect it's the nuclear option. It appears that the:
"_I don't want to have sex with you, but I don't want you to ever have sex with anyone else either._" is afforded a higher moral position... I suspect anyone suggesting getting it outside a sexless marriage is more likely to find themselves tossed out and their possessions behind them than to get a rational hearing. The moral indignation of the LD partner that the other would even suggest such a thing seems to rule the day.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

What PBear said. He has been there and I think his advice is all the more valuable for that reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> So if you want to accept this as a solution, make sure that you will be ok if your partner takes a lover if you can't perform or if your skills are poor. Many married women are sexually frustrated so if this becomes the norm, I have a feeling more women than men will take advantage.
> 
> I think most men who propose this are thinking of all the advantages for themselves and think that their wives would never avail themselves of the same. Somehow, it does not seem such a great idea of the woman can take a lover too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Catherine,
I'm not proposing this as a viable for only one gender. Did I phrase it as if I thought this should only be construed as for the 'advantage' of men? I apologize if I did - I see many posts from women who cannot have sex with the men they love. 

And I think there's a big difference between (a) someone desiring to have sex with their partner but not knowing exactly the best way to satisfy them and (b) not (or very rarely) desiring sex with their partner. 

(a) seems eminently more fixable - communication CAN help people understand what helps their partner feel pleased. If they both want to do it AND have a desire to do it in a way that pleases their partner maximally? Talking it out can probably change things for the better.

Communication _can't_ replace hormones, for the most part. If someone just doesn't have a sex drive, talking about it isn't going to help...as seems to be borne out by the majority of posts here.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Because sex is not just physical. It is emotional intimacy. If you give this to someone besides your wife, your marriage will wither.

Because there are STDs out there.

Because sex is known to cause pregnancy.

Because it would be a bad example to your children.

Because your affair partners may fall in love with you.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> Catherine,
> I'm not proposing this as a viable for only one gender. Did I phrase it as if I thought this should only be construed as for the 'advantage' of men? I apologize if I did - I see many posts from women who cannot have sex with the men they love.
> 
> And I think there's a big difference between (a) someone desiring to have sex with their partner but not knowing exactly the best way to satisfy them and (b) not (or very rarely) desiring sex with their partner.
> ...



There are many, many examples on this site of people who have achieved a good sex life through a willingness on the part of both partners to compromise, put in some effort, be accommodating and want to achieve it.

The list of people who have achieved it in the face of an unwillingness on the part of one partner to lift a finger is very short indeed...


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks for the response, Lovesherman. 

If these are all sufficient reasons not to seek outside sex, I wonder if this is just an intractable problem. That is, it seems the success rate for awakening a sex drive in a LD spouse is very low. Divorce is such a horrible idea. 

Thinking prophylactically - how could people prevent this sort of no-win situation? It seems frighteningly common and absolutely hellish. 

Should we encourage LD people to be upfront with their potential spouses about their lack of drive? Sort of like - this is a state of being that will cause marital stress, just like alcoholism or drug addiction might...and I assume everyone feels we should be open about these things?
Encourage HD people to be very up front about *their* condition that will cause stress? 

Encourage HD and LD people to avoid relationships with each other? 

I assume there will always be at least some sort of difference in drive; it looks like problems increase to the proportion that such a difference exists. Twice a week + three times a week doesn't seem bad. Twice a week + three times a year DOES.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

The important thing is to catch the problem early. As soon as you notice a reluctance to have sex, immediately address it. Find out why she is pulling away. Let her know that this is an emotional need for you, that it is not just physical.

If she really loves you and wants to meet your needs, she will find a way to compromise. I think people get in trouble when they let things fester and do not address issues between them.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks, lovesherm. 

The only personal issues we've had is that she's not happy with my stamina - she wants me to 'go' quicker. For whatever reason, it takes me a long time to finish, and sometimes I don't at all. Even when I don't, I love making love to her (because of the physical and emotional aspects) and will continue as long as she wants to.

She's usually happy with 10 minutes. I'd be happier with an hour or two. I'm sure part of it's that she doesn't think she's *really* satisfying me if i don't (a) get off or (b) get off quickly. I assure her that's not the case when she brings it up, but I know that's not enough. So I do what I can to compromise. 

I was only with 2 women before her. They liked my stamina; the woman I love doesn't, so I do my best to get off quicker (stopped masturbating, for the most part; focus on trying to finish quicker; etc.)

I don't think this has caused any real problems. As Catherine suggested, however, I need to think about the consequences if she's actually deeply unsatisfied with it.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

How do you even define a LD partner? For many people, their desire and drive for sex can fluctuate a lot over their lifetimes. For many women, their drives can fluctuate with their cycles and their stage of life.

HD/LD is only in relation to each other, and even though throughout my marriage my H has had typically a higher drive (wants it more often/thinks about it more often) than I, there have been periods of time when our roles were reversed and I actually became the higher drive partner.

No, it's not a problem with HD/LD. It's a problem with commitment. It's a problem with communication. It's a problem with giving, understanding, accepting. It's a relational problem.

It always uses the wrong 'D' word. It's not about 'drive'. It's not about a purely physical feeling. It's about 'desire' as in strongly wanting to please or satisfy your partner. It's about more than the physical. I tell my husband if I am low drive then I am most certainly high desire.

Stepping outside the bounds of a marriage will not fix that kind of a relational problem, but will only compound it. Because stepping out is not being committed, nor is it being giving to do that.

If all avenues have been tried and exhausted, you would do well to loosen the tether, let the tie that has bound you together unfurl, and set each other completely free. Because I am convinced that anyone who could agree to such an arrangement would end up becoming embittered and their self-respect and self-worth would wither away.

You would simply be fooling yourself - like looking at a pretty facade of a house that has only decay and ruin within it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My exact position on this is:
You cannot seriously suggest this option unless you ARE willing to divorce because it may end up there. 

As for this "righteous indignation" of the LD spouse - THAT is just an attempt to bully. Turns out they quickly fold like most bullies if you don't flinch.



QUOTE=Sawney Beane;541673]MEM11363 always has it listed in his set of solutions. If you search for his posts, you'll certainly find it.

I suspect it's the nuclear option. It appears that the:
"_I don't want to have sex with you, but I don't want you to ever have sex with anyone else either._" is afforded a higher moral position... I suspect anyone suggesting getting it outside a sexless marriage is more likely to find themselves tossed out and their possessions behind them than to get a rational hearing. The moral indignation of the LD partner that the other would even suggest such a thing seems to rule the day.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I'd define a LD partner both relationally (He wants it once a month, she wants it once a day) and with some benchmarks from counselors/scientists/therapists (the 10x a year "sexless" line in the sand).

I understand what you're saying about "drive" v. "desire", but I think the stats would bear out that people with similar "drives" are more likely to not have sexless marriages than those with different drives.

I appreciate the input and I'm not really saying anyone's wrong here; I honestly don't have a clue. 

I just think to myself - what if my partner (who I love completely) just lacked physical drive for me totally? I would not even *want* to have sex with her anymore! I'd probably eliminate that from our relationship.

[And I think this is weird - I'll go shopping with her even if I think it's not fun. She'll watch my flag football games and track meets, even if she doesn't actually like the games...just me. For some reason, I get more ego and pride for sex though? I don't understand it and won't try to defend it.] 


And then I ask myself: would I then be celibate forever? I love sex, and, yes, partly for its physical component. It would be tough to live without it.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> No, it's not a problem with HD/LD. It's a problem with commitment. It's a problem with communication. It's a problem with giving, understanding, accepting. It's a relational problem.
> 
> It always uses the wrong 'D' word. It's not about 'drive'. It's not about a purely physical feeling. It's about 'desire' as in strongly wanting to please or satisfy your partner. It's about more than the physical. I tell my husband if I am low drive then I am most certainly high desire.


I suspect a lot of people would be happier to admit to "having a low sex drive" than saying "I have no desire to understand or meet your needs". 

Problem, that...


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> Thanks, lovesherm.
> 
> The only personal issues we've had is that she's not happy with my stamina - she wants me to 'go' quicker. For whatever reason, it takes me a long time to finish, and sometimes I don't at all. Even when I don't, I love making love to her (because of the physical and emotional aspects) and will continue as long as she wants to.
> 
> ...



Definitely do not try to go quicker. Any suggestion about speed will eventually kill a libido. It does take awhile for two people to learn what pleases each other. It is a journey, and you need to keep communication open and try to please each other.

I hope that I'm wrong, but it sounds like her desire for you to be quick means that she doesn't really like sex. Do you think this is possible?

It is good that you are thinking about this issue. I would discuss it extensively with your fiance. Sex and money are huge issues in a marriage.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

I have seen the damage done to marriages by spouses who don't want sex and won't work on it. I've even experienced it myself. One of the most difficult environments for a marriage to survive in. So if I sound pretty harsh about this, it is not without reason and experience. As far as I'm concerned, a spouse who communicates through his/her actions that "I don't want to have sex with you and you can't have sex outside the marriage" plus won't work on it has effectively broken the marriage vows. They deserve whatever they get. Especially double if they did not communicate their LD nature as early as possible, as in instances of those showing temporary HD in order to draw the other person into marriage. As happened to me.

I favor divorce over extramarital sex as an option; in my mind, the LD person who shuts the spouse out of a sex life does not deserve in any way, shape or form to stay married, period. If they do manage to stay married as often happens, that happens only because the HD spouse has chosen to go along with the program for whatever reason. Kids, status, income, etc.

While I chose to divorce, I had a close friend who chose extramarital sex over divorce until his kids were in high school at which time, he finally divorced his wife. I would not have done that and I advised him as such, that it would be cleaner to cut ties as I did. Send the LD spouse and his/her community the message that it's unacceptable to live that way. Doubt they will get it.

I applaud those LD spouses who go out of the way to work on their end of the problem. These are spouses who truly understand what is at stake and are willing to put the relationship above themselves.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

SoWhat said:


> Thanks for the response, Lovesherman.
> 
> If these are all sufficient reasons not to seek outside sex, I wonder if this is just an intractable problem. That is, it seems the success rate for awakening a sex drive in a LD spouse is very low. Divorce is such a horrible idea.
> 
> ...


Here's my thoughts, and I haven't put this theory to the test yet. The drop in one spouse's sex drive goes along with the drop in "dating" behavior on both parts. When you're dating someone, you tend to be actively interested in then. Over time though, that interest turns more passive and wanes. Recognizing and fixing the issue early, before resentments and frustrations overwhelm either spouse is critical. As my marriage counselor said a few times, you can pay for it now, or you can pay for it in the future with interest.

I think part of it also has to do with understanding each others love languages. My GF and I both seem to be on the same page with regards to physical touch and intimacy as being our primary way of demonstrating love, and feeling loved. So we don't have to spend any effort (yet) on making sure our feelings are being communicated.

C

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Definitely do not try to go quicker.
> I hope that I'm wrong, but it sounds like her desire for you to be quick means that she doesn't really like sex. Do you think this is possible?


I wonder about it.

She says she had only 2 orgasms before she had me. She was married for 6 years. She says I'm the 2nd man she's slept with - she saved herself for marriage with her ex and didn't enjoy sex with him. She says she doesn't believe in pre-marital sex but was very attracted to me. I was (and am) very respectful of her religious beliefs and told her I was willing to wait. She insisted, after a few months of dating, that she wanted to make love to me. 

I don't think she's faking "it" with me because she's got a, uh, physiological reaction (at least I don't think you can fake it? she squirts). She typically does so after about 7 or 8 minutes of sex. I generally massage her beforehand, which really turns her on. 

She typically initiates sex by suggesting massage - it's sort of a code we've got. I'd say it's about 50% her, 50% me in initiation.

After she finishes, she's willing to keep going and will do whatever I ask, but she gets sensitive if I don't finish. She will ask me things like "Do I not turn you on enough??" Which is crazy, because she's a Perfect 10 to me. She's one of those women that everyone stops and stares at on the street and she's just my type!

I just...take a long while. 

I think she's being honest when she says she likes it. God knows she could "get away" with not sleeping with me by claiming religious conviction. 
I've never, ever suggested anything remotely like what my original post said to her.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I think you are right to be concerned. Keep talking openly with her. Let her know how important sex is to a relationship. It is the glue that lets a man and a woman overcome their differences and stay connected to each other.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks, LS.


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## TallJeff (Nov 1, 2011)

To me there is a difference here between differences and sexless.

Like lets say there an every day guy vs. an every two week woman. In that case they just need to work it out. He should not be going elsewhere.

Now an every week woman vs. a never guy That's where I say what I've said before: Monogamy doesn't mean sex outside of marriage; it means having sex with ONE (mono) person.

In that case, if the sexual partner wanted a paramour, you can't blame her. And it seems pretty riskless to the no-sex partner (he's not going to catch anything by NOT having sex with the partner).

I think it's extremely selfish for a no-sex partner to expect his/her spouse to live that way. It's one thing if there is sickness, another if he/she is just 'done' with sex.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think it is great that you are posting are even thinking about these things before you commit. If more men and women did the same their would be les problems. 

I am LD but my is husband HD and is sexually satisfied I believe and so am I. He is not one to suffer in silence. 

It seems reasonable to discuss what your needs are with your partner before committing but pre-marital libidos don't always hold up. 

So promises may not be keep if the couple assumes that both parties need to feel spontaneous desire in order to have sex. That is a common mistake. 

If you can both agree that it is normal for a mismatch and the a viable solution can be reached.

I think a better strategy; 
make sure that each partner understands human sexuality and emotional needs in a LTR; 
that each understands the role of sex in maintaining a close connection; 
the consequences of sexlessness and an agreement on the part of the LD person usually the woman to allow herself to be aroused. 

both understand that differences in the level of desire is normal; 
the LD partner may not feel spontaneous desire often but that is common and normal, it appears;

the LD person understands the importance of being aroused manually, so to speak, to maintain the emotional connection in the marriage.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think it is great that you are posting are even thinking about these things before you committe. If more men and women did the same their would be les problems.
> 
> I am LD but my is husband HD and is sexually satisfied I believe and so am I. He is not one to suffer in silence.
> 
> ...


This is probably the best, most concise "diagnosis" I have read. It grabs the what, why and how of the problem. 

What it needs is the equivalent of a "relationship antibiotic" or "relationship vaccination" to back up the diagnosis! 

Knowledge and education would obviously help, but is that the only tools against this "epidemic"?


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## theduck (Jan 2, 2012)

My experience was similar to PBear's. I was HD and my partner was LD. 

Although, I didn't cheat. We agreed to open up the relationship. And we weren't married. So I guess it wasn't that similar.

I also found that the physical aspects of sex weren't the issue. I missed the emotional intimacy. We broke up soon after and I met my future wife. ex-gf and I are still good friends.

I've seen mono/open couplings work. Depends on the circumstances. I believe that honesty and communication are key and that's where a lot of couples fail.

But yes, if you aren't sleeping with your partner at all and you don't intend on changing that, it is sort of selfish to deny them outside relief.


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## TallJeff (Nov 1, 2011)

theduck said:


> But yes, if you aren't sleeping with your partner at all and you don't intend on changing that, it is sort of selfish to deny them outside relief.


And it's also naive to think they aren't getting even without permission.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
Your post below is the entire basis for our happy sex life - which is a big amplifier to an overall great marriage. 

This also means that the HD spouse must be willing to learn how to warm their partner up and if that requires patience - they need to learn patience. 





Catherine602 said:


> I think it is great that you are posting are even thinking about these things before you committe. If more men and women did the same their would be les problems.
> 
> I am LD but my is husband HD and is sexually satisfied I believe and so am I. He is not one to suffer in silence.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

As long as my W makes a good faith effort to please me I am happy. It took her about a year of hearing "I don't want to have sex that is painful to you - ever - AND it isn't your fault - AND I don't blame you and finally I am not angry at you or thinking of other options."
After she heard that for about a year she came to accept it as true. I don't love her any less. And oddly enough I don't feel any less loved. I enjoy what we do have and don't obsess about what we have given up. 





Sawney Beane said:


> I suspect a lot of people would be happier to admit to "having a low sex drive" than saying "I have no desire to understand or meet your needs".
> 
> Problem, that...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theduck (Jan 2, 2012)

TallJeff said:


> And it's also naive to think they aren't getting even without permission.


Tru dat.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks for the enlightening post, Catherine. That was very good. 

For those men and women who think of sex with their spouse as a chore (or who would be happy never doing it again, etc), though, I guess I'd just like to play with a thought experiment:

You KNOW - with the same level of certainty you know that the sun is rising in the morning - that your spouse is having sex with a 3rd party AND that this sexual affair is not going to result in an emotional or financial affair, a child, and won't interfere with your children's lives, etc. 

All that's happening is your spouse is having sex with someone else. Let's pretend it just happens during your spouse's lunch break or something. 

Are you upset? Why or why not? 

(I recognize that there probably aren't too many people on here that would be happy never having sex again - they probably don't think they HAVE a problem with "Sex In Marriage." This is more something to ruminate on.)


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> Your post below is the entire basis for our happy sex life - which is a big amplifier to an overall great marriage.
> 
> This also means that the HD spouse must be willing to learn how to warm their partner up and if that requires patience - they need to learn patience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MEM 

It works for me as a LD spouse that's why I believe a simple change in the way we think about what is normal may work for many couples. 

I don't feel resentful or that sex is a chore, in fact I love sex when I get started. It is the starting that is the rate limiting step. I don't know why that is but we both accept it and we deal with it. 

My husband would probability be ecstatic if I did initiate and he could complain and pout about it. However, I think I would find him less attractive and find it hard to want to be aroused. 

I think the first change in the way we think about sexual relationships is the knowledge and acceptance of normality. 

I am probably going to get at lest one post alluding to "if you know it will make him happy then just do it". There are many things men will not do sexually just to make their partner happy if it went against their normative sexuality. 

Many women think they are broken because there husbands hound them about initiating. I don't think I am broken because I don't think of sex as often as my husband. As you said, the HD partner has to take on the task of initiating. 

Maybe it takes maturity and generosity to take on the task without pouting and getting angry, that is, if the LD partner is not refusing. It's a gift to me from my husband and I appreciate that he does not get angry like some men do. 

I just can't seem to initiate and I told my husband it does not mean I don't desire him. The hesitancy to initiate is so common that it is probably normative in this society because there is so much negative associated with female sexuality. Why make normal a problem?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> This is probably the best, most concise "diagnosis" I have read. It grabs the what, why and how of the problem.
> 
> What it needs is the equivalent of a "relationship antibiotic" or "relationship vaccination" to back up the diagnosis!
> 
> Knowledge and education would obviously help, but is that the only tools against this "epidemic"?


I didn't think past the just knowing part, but I think you are right. We know cigarette smoking causes cancer but smart people smoke 12 death sticks every day. 

What would motivate people to put into practice what they know?

Public health-like campaigns might work - it did for forest fires and smoking and crossing street. Maybe show U tube videos of miserable couples with the following message at the end >>>


< IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS WHEN YOU TIE THE KNOT - 

GET A CLUE OR BE BLUE >

They Might Be Giants - In The Middle - YouTube

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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think the reason there are so many unhappy people is that we have unreasonable romantic notions of happily ever after. It's a lovely fantasy for children but for adults, it's retarded. :crazy:

The couples who diligently go to premarital counciling like my husband and I, receive relatively useless canned BS. 

I know because after completing PMC, I had less of a clue than I did before, as it turns out. If my H were not so well grounded, we would probably be miserably married or single parents now. 

It's a travesty that young people are not given more useful info, there is so much creditable information out there. But couples usually find when they search for answers when things start going south. 

Thats why I admire the OP.

Millions of couples are under the impression that the knowledge we have is adequate. My kids will better educated when they are ready and they can decide what they want to do.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I didn't think past the just knowing part, but I think you are right. We know cigarette smoking causes cancer but smart people smoke 12 death sticks every day.
> 
> What would motivate people to put into practice what they know?
> 
> ...


Love this!

Part of the trouble, I think is that a good marriage requires that both partners indulge in what is, to some people, the WORST four-letter word: WORK. Lots of people are hard-wired to as little as possible, whether it's their jobs, exercise or their relationships. In their jobs, the boss stands over them with the big stick if they slack all the time - marriage ain't like that. YOU need to be self-motivated...



Catherine602 said:


> The couples who diligently go to premarital counciling like my husband and I, receive relatively useless canned BS.


I didn't even know there was such a thing!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> Because sex is not just physical. It is emotional intimacy. If you give this to someone besides your wife, your marriage will wither.


While I definitely do not advocate getting some "on the side", I had to tackle this first comment above.

The problem is, if the wife is not having sex with her husband then the marriage has already withered (perhaps irrepairably). To suggest that a guy who cheats for lack of sex at home is the one causing the end of the marriage is misguided.

Also, this quote pushes the idea that sex is not central to a marriage. I emphatically believe that for a marriage to succeed sex (and that means good and plentiful) must be part of the commitment, not some bonus to be doled out discretionarily.

IMO, sex is the defining characteristic of marriage. It is the one thing you are expected to get from and provide for your spouse exclusively. A marriage devoid of sex is no marriage at all (at least not one worth having).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> Are you upset? Why or why not?


I am going to jump in here, as having been married to a repeat-offender refuser I have some clear insight.

Most definitely, the person refusing sex to their spouse would not tolerate their spouse having an affair, for a few reasons.

One, this person treats their spouse as a possession or tool to enhance his or her own happiness and not as a separate individual with equally-valid wants or needs. Have you ever seen a dog that doesn't really like a particular bone or toy but when there is perceived competition then those territorial instincts come to the fore? That's EXACTLY what it's like.

Two, people who refuse their spouses sexually view anyone willing to fill that need as a threat (and rightfully so). Refusing spouses (IME) don't take ownership for their refusal and try to blame shift (you're a pervert, you want it too much, there are more important things, who would want to do that _with you_). But, it is hard to be credible when someone comes up willing to fill the gap. This is basically the same reason that refusers don't want their spouses discussing their problems or going to counseling (the refused spouse will figure out pretty quick that most people don't get treated that way).

Three, refuserstend to be selfish and think of themselves as superior, as in "I deserve to have my way more than he/she does". They are genuinely insulted when their spouses say or do things to challenge their superior self-image.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> I just think to myself - what if my partner (who I love completely) just lacked physical drive for me totally? I would not even *want* to have sex with her anymore! I'd probably eliminate that from our relationship.


My $0.02. If my partner has no physical drive for me then I'm married to the wrong person. That leaves only two viable options:

1) Figure out if there is something blocking normal sexual response (I strongly believe it is not normal to have zero sex drive or to be so uptight that your sexual repetoire is practically nothing) and fix it.

2) Divorce so that both partners can find someone to whom they are more attracted.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> I think you are right to be concerned. Keep talking openly with her. Let her know how important sex is to a relationship. It is the glue that lets a man and a woman overcome their differences and stay connected to each other.


Agree completely. Have you ever asked her why her first marriage did not last? I'd be willing to bet that her dislike for sex / shame surrounding sex became a huge issue that she was reluctant to address and he was unwilling to ignore.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think it is great that you are posting are even thinking about these things before you commit. If more men and women did the same their would be les problems.
> 
> I am LD but my is husband HD and is sexually satisfied I believe and so am I. He is not one to suffer in silence.
> 
> ...


:iagree: This is exactly what I mean by sex being part of the commitment. Too bad some people take an "icing on the cake" view.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

SoWhat, what happens if over time your girlfriend turns out to be the high-drive partner, and you turn out to be the low-drive? Is it then acceptable for her to find another partner on the side?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This also means that the HD spouse must be willing to learn how to warm their partner up and if that requires patience - they need to learn patience.


Agree to an extent. The HD partner must be willing to create an environment conducive to sex. The LD partner must take ownership of his or her (lack of) drive and act in the best interests of the marriage even if he or she does not feel like it.

For instance, if my ex had told me "I really get in the mood when you arrange an evening out for us and I would like you to make some plans for tomorrow" then I should indeed do what I can to make that happen. But, if I do, then it is up to my ex to follow through (cheerfully) on her part. Her saying "thank you for taking me out - I'm tired and going to sleep" is not okay.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I just can't seem to initiate and I told my husband it does not mean I don't desire him. The hesitancy to initiate is so common that it is probably normative in this society because there is so much negative associated with female sexuality. Why make normal a problem?


I hear your point, and I personally had no problem being the 90% initiator in the marriage. I don't think most guys have a problem with initiating per se - it's constant rejection that makes us gunshy.

That being said, I guess I don't understand why you cannot make the effort to plan a good sexual encounter. I can see where having sex does not _spontaneously_ occur to you. But, we have so many tools to help us in this manner. If you are on this forum, you have e-mail, and that e-mail has a calendar. Your cellphone undoubted has one as well.

So, the question is why can't you - today - make a calendar entry like "Friday 1/20/12 - dress up for hubby and knock his socks off". I see that you get the importance of sex in an LTR, and you know he would not complain about that.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

DTO said:


> Agree completely. Have you ever asked her why her first marriage did not last? I'd be willing to bet that her dislike for sex / shame surrounding sex became a huge issue that she was reluctant to address and he was unwilling to ignore.


He cheated on her multiple times. 
Overall, I get the impression that he was a major jerk. But I can say that his likelihood of cheating was probably greater because of her aversion to sex with him. I don't press her on particulars, as her divorce was very painful for her. 

I do wonder if she didn't like having sex with HIM or if she's just a low/no drive person and has been enthusiastically faking with me. 

I can't figure why, if this is the case, she would have pushed so hard to have sex with me. Maybe it was apparent that I'm a very sexual person and she thought that taking the initiative on the matter would "prove" she desired sex, making me more likely to stay with her? 

But then, I wonder...am I wondering too much? Am I potentially messing this up by overanalyzing it? It's possible that she just wasn't sexually compatible with him and is with me, right?


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> The important thing is to catch the problem early. As soon as you notice a reluctance to have sex, immediately address it. Find out why she is pulling away. Let her know that this is an emotional need for you, that it is not just physical.
> 
> If she really loves you and wants to meet your needs, she will find a way to compromise. I think people get in trouble when they let things fester and do not address issues between them.


I agree with this, usually the reluctance to have sex either has to do with other issues such as resentment, or a hormonal problem. Seeking another doesn't solve the problem in your marriage, and it add lots of drama ie. falling in love


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have a long - brutally honest real world thread on this topic.

I guess I fall into that small percent of guys who refuses to be forced into celibacy and refuses to lie to his wife. It all resolved in a happy manner. Kind of painful at the time.



UOTE=SoWhat;541597]Would you be upset if your partner had an outside lover?
If so, why? 

Full disclosure: I'm not married. There's a good chance I'll ask my current GF to marry me this year or next (though it's such a scary thought!) But I'm definitely not speaking from a position of experience here and I'm not attempting to look like I am. 

I see tons of posts by married men and women who would love to make love to their low/no drive spouse and spend frustrated months, years, and decades without any sexual contact at all. 

Responses are generally sympathetic/empathetic but typically put a dichotomy up - either do things to make your spouse want to have sex with you (men often suggest that other men "man up", women tell men to help around the house or take their wives on more dates; both generally suggest wives take their low-drive husbands to the doctor's), or get a divorce. And most seem to opt for the former, and it seems, from posts here, they do so for years and years and years and often the spouse just continues to say things like "I could go the rest of my life without sex."

But...what IS wrong with taking an outside lover (or visiting 'professionals,' etc), provided that one is able to keep the family stable?

I'd like to know why low/no drive spouses would be opposed to this. 

It reminds me of when I was a kid and we'd give things up for lent. Everyone would laugh when someone would say they were giving up brocolli or homework - because none of us actually wanted to eat brocolli or do homework, it wouldn't really be giving anything up!

If you're not interested in your spouse sexually, do you have any objection to finding someone who is interested in him/her in this way?
I guess there's a 'breaking of a marital vow' - but, like giving up homework for Lent, it's not really a reciprocal sacrifice in any way. 
The primary fear, I guess, is that it WILL break up the family, that the higher drive spouse will leave you or let the affair bleed over into the everyday relations between the spouses. 

Is there anything else that I don't see? 
It just seems like control - "I don't want to have sex with you, but I don't want you to ever have sex with anyone else either." 
And that seems so...tragic. If the low drive spouse doesn't want sex to be part of the marital relationship, why not let sex be part of some extra-marital relationship? It really baffles me. 

I'm not attacking low/no drive spouses. I just want to know why a solution that seems better than divorce or constant nagging/expectations of sex from the low drive spouse is so often rejected out of hand?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

sex is a basic human need. I wouldnt ask my partner to go without water and asking me to go without sex is just as unnatural.
Man or woman...if you're unwilling or unable to provide a basic sexual need to your spouse you should expect that they have at least contemplated (seriously contemplated) cheating.


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## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi So What

sharing etc. 

Would you be upset if your partner had an outside lover?
If so, why?

JUdith: Sex is the glue that holds marriages together. The key to think about is what are you teaching the children by doing that? People who have done that have seen there children repeat what their parents have done. As an example -children who have seen parents abuse and have an extra lover besides the wife repeat the same thing because they have been taught by observing and modeling from the parents that it is normal even when it creates pain. I have never understood why persons have more than one sexual partner think it doesnt affect children. 

Sex in marriage between the couples help the children as well. ONe being they learn healthy sexuality between their parents by observing what they do with touch etc. There is info if you dont .... 

Full disclosure: I'm not married. There's a good chance I'll ask my current GF to marry me this year or next (though it's such a scary thought!) But I'm definitely not speaking from a position of experience here and I'm not attempting to look like I am.

I see tons of posts by married men and women who would love to make love to their low/no drive spouse and spend frustrated months, years, and decades without any sexual contact at all.

JUdith: Part of it is the lack of info on both parts of spouses not understand how to relate to the spouse in sex. and before the fact. Women need safety and security in their emotions before tehy can open up vaginally to a male. among other things. Trust is huge when it comes to open up vaginally. If she cant trust you to stay faithful when you said you would-then she cant trust you with her body. Women dont understand that men love their wives in sex and are wired to show that. I know an psychologist author who said that he was glad he read about marriage and women and sex becuase it help his sex life with his wife etc. So did she read about male and sexuality. 

Abuse plays a huge role in whether or not a woman will have sex or not. I know

Responses are generally sympathetic/empathetic but typically put a dichotomy up - either do things to make your spouse want to have sex with you (men often suggest that other men "man up", women tell men to help around the house or take their wives on more dates; both generally suggest wives take their low-drive husbands to the doctor's), or get a divorce. And most seem to opt for the former, and it seems, from posts here, they do so for years and years and years and often the spouse just continues to say things like "I could go the rest of my life without sex."

Judith: I have talked to friends who are couples who also have not realize how the other person
Yes it can be a matter of a biological or medical thing. Woman who have been abused have had GI problems and urinary probelms. I know a wife who has had to have surgery due to the abuse who it is a miracle she had kids. Women can because they relate to sex differently than men. Also A womans testosterone needs to be check if it is low and meds given to up it if she is struglging to have sex. Sex Essentials that give a woman the needed testosterone to have sex-and want it. For women they need to resolve relationship issues before having sex. Men dont always understand that. 

Yes some women can have sex and work on relationship issues but there not like men where they can have sex after a verbal conflict or fight. Depends on the issue

But...what IS wrong with taking an outside lover (or visiting 'professionals,' etc), provided that one is able to keep the family stable?

Judith: See above. But I would like to know how that can be done. 

I'd like to know why low/no drive spouses would be opposed to this.

Judith: Trust is a factor. sex is for exclusivity to show that you both are not roommates and so on. IT does need to be worked on because that is why there is sex therapists. 

If you're not interested in your spouse sexually, do you have any objection to finding someone who is interested in him/her in this way?

JUdith: That is when it needs to be worked on and yes breaking the vow. 


The primary fear, I guess, is that it WILL break up the family, that the higher drive spouse will leave you or let the affair bleed over into the everyday relations between the spouses.

Juidth: I have seen it break up the family. Affair I have seen has not helped a family and has caused the kids pain. 

Is there anything else that I don't see?

Judith: Reading books will help you more on marriage and sex. 


It just seems like control - "I don't want to have sex with you, but I don't want you to ever have sex with anyone else either."
And that seems so...tragic. If the low drive spouse doesn't want sex to be part of the marital relationship, why not let sex be part of some extra-marital relationship? It really baffles me.

Judith: That is because the woman is struggling with sex for whatever reason and needs help to figure out why-it is a number of things not just relatonship stuff. Not having it with another is valid because of trust. Sharing something someone else doesnt need. I Rather Have Choc than Sex-is about a couple where she didnt want sex and they both needed it to maintain the relationship. He moved into another room and they both talk about sex and they compromised where he initiated but let her lead and did it when she could want it-in time they were back where they were before in wanting it more than not. 
She worked on her emotions about it to figure out why it was important to her etc. IF women see it as a control thing they wont do it. And if they have been hurt relationally they will use it to control when they feel like they have no control. 

I'm not attacking low/no drive spouses. I just want to know why a solution that seems better than divorce or constant nagging/expectations of sex from the low drive spouse is so often rejected out of hand? 

Judith: see above. Becuase both need to talk about sex as the books recommend it and lack of talking about sex like finances can lead to miscommunication about sex and then sexless marriages. 

Judith


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You and I are 100 percent in synch on this. 

Two big lies men tell themselves all the time (I don't tell myself these):
1. If she came it was good/great for her 
2. If she doesn't initiate he has the right to complain and give her a hard time about it

1. This is so clearly untrue that it is laughable. Tons of sexually starved guys swear there wives always come. Maybe they do - but they sure as heck are somehow not happy with the overall experience. 

FWIW: Once we are connecting. Except I suddenly realized she didn't want to be there. I went to stop. She insisted I finish. Afterwards I felt bad. Really bad. Would NOT want to repeat that. Proof to me that you can reach the rapture and ALSO have an overall bad experience. 

2. This is total BS. When you intiiate, if your LD partner gives herself to you despite not starting out in the mood - she is a GREAT partner. Treat her well. It is NOT her job to massage your ego by pretending she wants to initiate. 






Catherine602 said:


> MEM
> 
> It works for me as a LD spouse that's why I believe a simple change in the way we think about what is normal may work for many couples.
> 
> ...


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

working_together said:


> I agree with this, usually the reluctance to have sex either has to do with other issues such as resentment, or a hormonal problem. Seeking another doesn't solve the problem in your marriage, and it add lots of drama ie. falling in love



It would solve the problem that one partner wants sex and is not having sex.

Again - would you sign up to be a husband or wife if, a priori, you knew would have the sex life of a priest or nun? 
If you knew, going into it, that your partner did not want to sleep with you - potentially for the rest of your life - would you make a vow of fidelity? That is, would you say "I will never sleep with another man/woman" if you KNEW that meant signing up for eternal celibacy? 

Let me try this one:

"I agree with this, usually the reluctance to show affection/go on dates/attend family get-togethers/contribute financially/clean up around the house/refrain from physical abuse/etc either has to do with other issues such as resentment, or a hormonal problem."

I just see this as a "different expectations" type thing. If you don't or no longer want sex in marriage and your spouse does, you have very different expectations for the whole enterprise. 

It's like going to a seafood restaurant with someone and then, halfway through the meal, the other person says "I'm not interested in seafood anymore, let's go get a salad somewhere else." 

Well, I wouldn't have gone here with you if I had known you didn't like seafood. Now that I know, can I keep eating seafood and you go to the salad bar that's already here?"


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

IMO, a marriage without sex, if there are no health or hormonal issues at the root, needs to be examined. 

Counseling is the first choice, then if there is no compromise on the side of the person who does not want sex, than perhaps a divorce can be discussed. 

Cheating will not solve anything and will only make everything worse. 

Just curious, though, if your wife did have a physical problem would you still use that to justify and affair?

If so, what about men who have erectile dysfunction, would it be okay for the wife to have an affair in that case?


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## MarriedMojo (Aug 19, 2012)

SoWhat said:


> I wonder about it.
> 
> She says she had only 2 orgasms before she had me. She was married for 6 years. She says I'm the 2nd man she's slept with - she saved herself for marriage with her ex and didn't enjoy sex with him. She says she doesn't believe in pre-marital sex but was very attracted to me. I was (and am) very respectful of her religious beliefs and told her I was willing to wait. She insisted, after a few months of dating, that she wanted to make love to me.
> 
> ...


I had a GF way in the past who squirted. She always wanted to finish quick. Not necessarily quick from start to finish but shortly after she would "O". She got extremely drained from them and to be honest she acted more like a typical guy after she would "O". She would be completely out of breath, shaking, afterwards just laying there savoring the moment as if it were never going to happen again. I think HBO did a documentary on it a long time ago. Just like a guy some women are just completely drained afterwards and have no desire to continue. I say that knowing that she would always make sure i finished one way or another, so it was not being selfish. Food for thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Interesting issue. Aside from the many other issues from my marriage (divorced 8 years, not related to sex), my ex took forever. 

My perspective - I got sore, I got tired, I got bored. I wanted to sleep. I felt in adequate because I could never get him off with just a BJ but know my skills aren't lacking there due to previous sexual history. So I started faking major excitement to help get it over with quicker.

I would suggest figuring out what the real objection is (tired, sore, etc) and try to choose times she isn't as tired or help with things that lead to being tired, choose a lubricant to help with soreness once hers runs out. Suggest more foreplay or things that really turn you on (toys, erotic stories, etc) - anything to help move it along. But maybe also suggest she be willing to go with a lazy marathon on a weekend or whenever it can be a languid lovemaking session. Compromise should be key. 

But you mention she doesn't believe in sex before marriage and has limited experience. I'm betting she has been taught to believe the woman is submissive, gives in to man out of necessity and possibly because she's so beautiful has had so many men come on to her that she has put sex on a pedestal. 

It's nice she initiates half of the time - that says a lot. Maybe you could find some literature on the male climax to clear up some of her discomfort thinking the source of your stimina is lack of attraction. As she has had little to compare with, maybe she thinks you should be done in 5 minutes.


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