# Is his EA a PA? Does this look suspicious?



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I can't see the wood for the trees atm:any objective opinions are muchly welcomed!

I received a thread of text messages yesterday from my H which he accidentally forwarded to me. The messages were a text conversation between my H and a co-worker who has been in hospital for the last couple of weeks. It was the usual banter type stuff between two guys, however one exchange stood out and I freaked when I read it. Does this sound dodgy?

H: What do you do if you want to take care of stuff? [ie masturbate]
Co-worker: you were only working on that project for a week [_initial project where he met the OW_] and look what happened, what do you think you get when you're in hospital for two weeks?

Now... I initially read that as *something* physical happening between my H and the OW but not necessarily full sex. I have always suspected that his co-workers know more than me about what happened, however that IS a suspicion and not founded on anything concrete.

I stewed over this last night before confronting him. At first I didn't reveal how I had suspicions, but he went crazy, kept saying if I was going to accuse him of doing stuff with her then I could at least tell him why I had these suspicions. I asked him direct questions: for some reason I have found he is more liable to be honest with a very specific direct question than "did something happen?"

I asked did she give him a BJ? He got even more angry and said I knew she had tried to come on to him more than once and he'd told her no, so why on earth would he then let her give him a BJ? He said he's not the sort of person to go around behind my back doing stuff like that...

I explained why I had suspicions. He'd calmed down by then and said yes, he could completely see why that looked bad and he didn't know why his friend had said that. I said to ask him tomorrow. Show me what you say and what he says. He said, OK, he'll leave his phone at home with me and I can ring him or text him. Good I think, shows openness. Maybe I'm worrying over guy banter *shrugs*

Earlier on he asked if I still wanted his phone for tomorrow. Yes I said. OK he replied, but be aware that [this friend] has been in hospital for two weeks and is doped up on painkillers (ie don't necessarily believe what he says...) Um not so good...

I am trying to be open minded but I realise something like this could spell the end of things. I was very clear that if he lied to me again that was it, but although I am suspcicious, I cannot step out because of a suspicion. He even said I could ring the OW and she would confirm they were never physical, I have stayed very clear of doing this and I really don't want to because I realise she is a predatory type and would probably embellish on whatever *did* happen.

How bad does this look? Could I be over-reacting? Any advice on what to do now? I have his phone for the morning.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Why do you not polygraph him and bring his to an end. The position you are in at the moment is you cannot trust he has told you the truth , rightly so, to take away your anxiety have him polygraphed. His reaction to your confrontation would indicate he is hiding something , why would he after being caught in an affair react so, all it takes from him is to explain what happened and give you his phone. I suspect both of you are tense and mistrust runs high. It will dissipate once you are assured and accept you have the whole truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dd080510 (Jul 27, 2011)

Obviously each situation is different but this sounds a lot like my husband's initial reaction when I found an email from his OW after he had ended their short oral fling. It didn't say anything had happened, but was very suspicious. I had no clue anything was going on prior to this so I had every reason to trust him. No trust issues in the past. He told me nothing happened and because my intuition was so strong, I continued to ask him. He got super annoyed and told me I need to cut it out and drop it. 7 months later she blackmailed him and he had to tell me before she did. Even though it was over long before I asked him initially, he felt the need to lie. He was hoping I'd never find out. He stated that he would rather live with the secret the rest of his life than have me find out and leave him. 

I'd say go with your intuition but unfortunately, if there is no hard evidence, you'll really never find out. I know I wouldn't have ever known if she didn't threaten to tell me if didn't do it again with her. Good luck.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

How do you get a polygraph? I don't know, to get to that point where it's the only way to believe someone...I completely understand the reasoning behind it but what worries me is the "after" part, how will you *ever* know if they're telling the truth?

I have his cell here. He said I could call or text his friend to ask him. I haven't done it yet. In a way because of what he said about his friend being doped up on painkillers, I think what's the point: even if his friend said, well I meant about the HJ/BJ/make out session, my H could easily say, well, he's not with it, he doesn't know what planet he's on *shrugs* Oh and it's quite possible that H could have gotten another co-worker to give his friend a heads-up. Or I could be overthinking it...

The other thing was, he had deleted all of his text messages when I asked to see his phone before I told him how I'd got my suspicions. He said it was because he had loads and wanted to empty his inbox... Could be perfectly true. Could be him deleting that message.

I have no idea what to do right now.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry WW, this really is making a horrible situation worse.

I'm sure your H is hiding something. The defensive reaction, getting angry, deleting texts, already making excuses for his friend's answers.... not to mention your other thread where he's trying to rug sweep and have you move on.

Of course whatever his friend texts back can't be taken as proof of anything, he's probably already gotten a heads up for sure. I'm sure the OW already has agreed to stick to whatever story they've planned previously, so no help there.

Do you think your H is still in contact with the OW? Deleting all his texts is bad and total bs that he wants to clear his inbox. I've told my H, never delete any texts. If I see one deleted, I will assume the worst. He knows it's a trigger and deleting means hiding something. New texts will just override and delete old texts, so there's no need to empty anything. If your H deleted a line of conversation, he knew you could find something incriminating.

At this point, I'd probably try bluffing. Say you know the affair was physical, but you're not revealing your sources. He'll pitch a fit, get defensive, get angry, but he could hang himself by letting something slip. 

Bluffing is actually how I got my H to confess the physical portion of his affair. He was insisting it was only EA. Looked me straight in the eye and said they never kissed. After several hours, I said I could always get a transcript of all his old texts. He got scared and confessed, they had rented a hotel room twice.

Turns out you can't get a transcript of texts, but I didn't know that and neither did my H. I have heard you can take someone's cellphone and have all the old text messages recovered from it with specific software. Might be expensive and I'm not sure if it's true, but I think that would be your best course of action now if his cell is in your hands.

Anyone know if you can do this? Time to google. Hopefully you can get some hard evidence, because he is hiding something and you can't R until he stops lying.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I messaged his friend, who never replied.

We had an almighty blow up earlier. It pans out that he is utterly frustrated by this issue and me not trusting him. He thought we'd made progress through MC. He says the way I worded the message to his friend was like I was trying to trick him into thinking it was H who sent it. Tbat I'm trying to trick him into admitting something. That so many people he knows can't understand why I'm so bothered about it considering "nothing happened."

He admitted he had deleted that thread of messages from his phone because he said as soon as ge read it, he KNEW what I'd think. This is a BIG red flag for me. Rather than explain he got a questionable message, it said about something to do with the A and he knew it would look "off", he gets rid of it and doesn't tell me. 

I asked did he stand up for me when people say stuff about me making a big deal out of things? He said he wouldn't let anyone badmouth me: so no then. I said you should be backing me up. He went mental. Went into the kitchen and smashed the pots off the cou.ter. There was glass and food everywhere. That was an hour ago and he hasn't said a word to me since. Just cleaned it all up and then helped with some family stuff. I suspect he is mad with himself as it was only the other weekend he smashed the windshield with his fist. This is very scary. He is very a vety angry person recently. I don't know what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

I am inclined to think you go to family for a couple of days , if he asks why tell him his anger is cause for concern. If he tries to rebut you be calm and simply ask him to spend some time working out how he can evidence he has told you the whole truth, and suggest he goes to IC for anger management. Do not take his cr&p and excuses he is throwing a strop and the threats are insinuated towards you. His actions and deletions of text messages show he is still trying to cover his arse. He wants to sweep this under the rug do not let him.

This site is here for you if he is open to the suggestion send him to the marriage builders site for advice .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

So he did lie about his reasoning for deleting the texts. He could've told you right away, "It looked bad and I reacted rashly. I won't delete anymore texts." Instead he tried to cover and say his inbox was full.

The fact he's still lying about little things, means he's still in lying "cya" mode. 

Why would he care if you tried to trick his friend by having him think it was him? If there's nothing to hide, then what could his friend possibly reveal that would be new?

He's blame shifting and trying to make you feel guilty for your "trickery". 

The anger is scary and I agree that you should be apart for a few days. He does need some anger management. Do not let him rug sweep. He'll probably get more angry the stronger you get and the less you back down. He's using your fear of his anger to bully you into dropping the affair.

I'm so sorry he's acting this way, stay strong.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

He's nit picking now. Said that his inbox WAS full which was why he deleted all his messages. He said I filled in the gaps, that he DID say when he read it he knew what I'd think, but not that that was why he deleted it. But hey. The thought was there and he deleted it and didn't tell me so it amounts to the same thing.

I don't know what to do. I'm up again because my mind is racing. After dinner he was a lot calmer. I keep thinking through everything he has said and done that looks bad. Then thinking about it from the other side, the possibility that I have read into it and he is telling the truth that nothing else happened.

I said my worst fear is that I choose to believe him, then in one/five/ten years time when we're further down the line, have maybe invested more in a bigger house, maybe gone on our second honeymoon, that I find out THEN that he has lied. I know there would be no getting over that. I feel stuck because as it is, there isn't enough to say, yes, I know you lied. But I don't feel confident enough to say, OK, I believe you. So I am stuck in limbo.

The idea about the polygraph... At this point I would consider it. However I feel extremely sure that my H would toss it aside saying if I can't believe him, then why bother, let's just call it a day...

I am here thinking how to approach this logically. I don't want this toxic situation to drag out indefinitely, it is destructive, I am in anguish and he is so angry. I am also worried I could be condemning him for something that hasn't happened and if it turns out he IS telling the truth, he could end up being so resentful and more angry at me for not believing him.

I'm stuck.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You know WW I’m really big on justice/injustice. If I’ve been falsely accused and I can’t make the accuser see sense I get very angry indeed. Anger never is an answer, but your H may be a bit like me. He may also feel that you are persecuting him and believe me if he does it may well drive him away from you.

At the moment you are at DEFCON 1, the highest state of alert, anticipation and anxiousness. You’ve both c*cked pistols and are likely to go into all out war at anytime.

Step back and call a truce to it all. Go for a whole 3 months just enjoying one another’s company and working on getting to know one another better. I highly recommend you go on a marriage enrichment program together.

Then at the end of the three months re-assess your situation and see how you feel about things. Three months is nothing in the context of a lifetime.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just google polygraph and your city. It's not that hard.

Or, call the truce and demand 100% transparency in the meantime. Make sure you have access to the phone records so you can see how many texts were sent and then compare them to how many are still left on the phone, to see if he's deleting. Tell him to let you see the phone before he deletes anything, or you're gone. If he's unwilling to do this one thing for you, it tells you that he is NOT remorseful and is just trying to string you along.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

AFEH, I agree that people get angry when injustly accused, but the problem is walkingwounded's H did have an EA. His wife's trust is broken, so he should be doing everything he can to earn it back. That includes being as supportive and understanding as possible.

I've read some of walkingwounded's other posts and her H has been acting this way almost from discovery. She didn't feel comfortable with him going out with friends and he got mad, one week after d-day! He also gets mad when she asks questions about the EA and she has every right to ask questions or let him know when she's upset. It's only been a few months, it takes years to get over this kind of betrayal.

Walkingwounded, from reading a different post you said something like you had to meet your H halfway and forgive him to move forward. Were you ready to forgive your H or did you feel pressure to? 

Regardless, your H had an EA and destroyed your trust. You can't force or fake trust, it's something that's earned. If he's wanting you to trust him, because he says you should.... well, it doesn't work that way. You have to feel it. Even now with my H doing everything he can to earn my trust back and reassure me, I have doubts. But, I can feel that he's earning some of his trust back. I don't feel like I did those first few weeks after d-day, where I question everything he says. It's a natural progression. If you're still feeling the amount of distrust you had on d-day, then your H is not doing the heavy lifting it takes to earn it back.

I don't blame you for not wanting to let it go and find out 5 years down the road he's been lying. You have to trust your gut and his actions, because his words still don't mean much to you. What do _you_ want? If you don't feel he's giving you full transparency and support during this time of recovery, then you have to decide if that's okay with you. If not, then you have some harder decisions to make.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

AFEH, that is something I would consider. But what do I do with the doubt? I met him halfway when I forgave him, I was prepared to give him trust after he'd worked to repair it. But I don't know if I can live with this nagging doubt of "has he? Did that message mean something or did it mean nothing?" I can't stand to think he's not letting on and I only know a partial truth, but also I cannot stand to think I may be doubting something that was a jokey comment not intended to mean anything.

turnera, I explained to him that the full transparency and openness we discussed involved him not deleting messages. We have all ready discussed this. It was to do with him deleting the messages she sent a while ago. Last night he was extremely rude and curt about it, said he would present his phone to me when he arrived home every day so I could check who he'd been texting and what had been said, every single thing.

He said he deleted it to "protect me." I replied it is not his job to protect me or filter out stuff he doesn't think I should know, that is not his place. He thinks I should have selective knowledge and he is the person to pick what I should and shouldn't know/read/hear.

I was also REALLY hurt when he told me that there are so many people who can't understand why I am so bothered as "nothing happened." He says everyone is entitled to their opinion. I agree. It just gives me a feeling that he is not backing me up. I suppose ideally if he were being supportive I would like him to be saying something like "well I did lie to her, didn't tell her stuff and carried on behind her back, I was wrong to do that and *I* can see why she is upset about it" would make me feel more that he gets it. He did say following that, that it was only quite recently that he understood just WHY I was so upset. He thinks his golden "get out of jail free" card is that because he never "meant anything by it" when he was contacting her, ie that he wasn't pursuing any kind of liaison or relationship, and that "it wasn't his intention", it was somewhat OK. Apparently the fact he liked pursuing the attention of another woman is OK. I might just let him know I'll be making sure I'm alone with my personal trainer on a regular basis, talking about my relationship problems with H to him, and messaging him late at night asking how he feels about me and not telling H. Then telling him there's nothing in it, I'll stop doing it, then make sure I carry on for a bit after. Because, there's nothing in it, so it should be OK, right?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

walkingwounded said:


> said he would present his phone to me when he arrived home every day so I could check who he'd been texting and what had been said, every single thing.


At which point you say "GREAT! That's exactly what I want! Thank you for understanding!" 

And then you TAKE HIS PHONE and check it.

He is gaslighting you, hon. He is bullying you because he's a male and you're a female and he knows if he is aggressive enough, you have been conditioned to back down. It's COMPLETELY what he intends when he acts like such an ass.

The only solution you have left is to EMBRACE his attempts, and turn them back on him, in his face. He wants to blame you for suspecting? *LET HIM. *

YOU don't give a fig if he's put out by you suspecting because HE CHEATED ON YOU.

And, btw, go ahead and let him see you getting a life, dealing with your trainer. He NEEDS to see that you are not sitting at home worrying about him cheating and praying he chooses you. That just strokes his ego and that's been done enough already.

Time to start expecting him to act like a real man.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I took his anger as frustration. I don't know if it's from me not believing him because he's telling the truth or frustration because he is lying and I won't let it drop.

I must confess to feeling slightly intimidated. He is not always easily approachable and has a tendency to shut me down when he's decided that's the end of it. Then gets frustrated that I want to talk again because we haven't resolved things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I agree with Turnera. 

Bottom line, your H should not be getting frustrated with you! Of course he can be bummed or disappointed you don't trust him, but he caused that mistrust to be there in the first place. Regardless of whether or not he's being truthful, he shouldn't be getting frustrated at this point in recovery if he's truly remorseful. It's only been a few months!

If my H has a long day at work, I know in my head he's not cheating, but I can't help but question it in my heart. If he gets frustrated that I have him call from his desk to confirm his whereabouts, he doesn't show it to me. I have access to his work schedule and email and yet I still need that additional reassurance. He gets it. He cheated and is doing what _I need _to build back trust. Some level of trust is slowly returning, but I will be doing the "trust but verify" for a long time to come.

Hopefully you can get your H to understand the "trust but verify" concept, because he's created the situation where you no longer trust blindly.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Well that is one of the things I was talking to him about yesterday. That it was him that created this situation. The consequences of his actions. He knows full well that previously he had my complete and utter trust and now... he doesn't. I think that although he has been good and was getting better recently at being supportive, it has become more apparent to me that it was because he knew he upset me and wanted to make it better. Which is fine, but is lacking the bit where he realises what he did was wrong. When he says that he sounds like a small kid repeating parrot fashion, "I won't do it again because it was wrong."

I forgave him because the constant thinking about it and questions were wearing me and us down. I realised I had to take action because I didn't want to carry on like that and I had to start moving forward instead of looking back. And it was going well. It was my decision.

Today since he's been back from work, things have been pretty even. I didn't make any decisions about telling him to move out for a while. Tbh I knew it would be coming from an emotional viewpoint and knowing me, I need to have that calm and be in a better place before I start making decisions. And things have been OK today with him. I have been thinking through carefully both sides and whether I could be reading into it. I haven't come to any conclusion yet. I feel all knotted up inside, and I know it's not going to take much for me to cry. I feel so unhappy right now. I know I keep saying it but the thought of him "getting away" with having done something kills me. But conversely the thought of wrongly convicting him eats me up. That this could all be because of some lighthearted banter that doesn't mean anything. And one of the worst thingsabout it is I look at him and think, before this I wouldn't have doubted him for a second. Now I doubt he is telling the truth.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Get some rest and try not to let it consume your thoughts. 

From this point on, have him leave his phone out for your to see (if you choose) and to _never_ delete texts. If he's grumpy about it, so be it. Doesn't mean you're convicting him of something he never did, he did have an EA. You are in your right to request things from him to help you heal. If he doesn't want to, then he's just hindering your progress. So, he'll have to deal with the continued lack of trust by denying you.

You'll probably never know if his friend's banter was in jest or not, but file it away in the back of your mind. Don't forget it, but let it rest and see if anything else ever pops up again. If you start seeing a pattern, you might get your answer. 

This, of course, is only if you can live with the uncertainty. For me, I'm in the 90% zone of feeling like I have everything I need to know from my H regarding his affair. I'm relatively comfortable that there are no more "bombshells". If there's anything else, it's hopefully small and "nothing new". That's HUGE for me to be at this point. It took him confessing an affair from 10 years ago for me to finally feel like he had nothing more to hide.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

I have been contemplating this. I came down to two options:

1. The ultimatum. Tell him I feel in my gut that there is something he hasn't admitted to, about the affair being physical. That I require him to put all his cards on the table, or I will leave. This depends on me coming to some kind of certainty that he has indeed hidden something, and right now I am not convinced *enough*. There is a huge amount of doubt, but thinking logically, I don't feel it's enough to deliver this.

Pros: could shake him up to see I am serious and prepared to take action. Would show him the consequences of continuing to hide stuff.

Cons: Means I'd have to be prepared to carry it out. Could potentially mean I get a "false" confession in order for me to stay and work through things. And I might end up hearing something I wasn't prepared for or can't deal with.

2. The truce. I explain this environment is destructive, and in order to get a grip on things and look forward again, I am calling a truce. We continue to do MC and continue with transparency and openness. I did have an internal deadline of the end of the year to reassess, and I will probably stick with that for now and see where we are then.

Pros: would give me the clarity of time to reflect. Also, although things have been talked out a lot, I do feel strongly that if there *is* anything, it will come out eventually. If he is being honest, it avoids any more unnecessary conflict and potentially nurturing a resentment in him.

Cons: could lead him to think he has glossed over things if he *has* lied about the A being physical. Could lead to me feeling like this issue hasn't been resolved and potentially create a resentment within me. 

Right now, that message keeps going over and over in my head. I keep thinking of it from different angles. I do feel calmer but it still upsets me a little when I think about what it could mean.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

As part of MC express what you wrote exept mention as a validation of the truth a polygraph is the option. He should agree without question , even then it may be a bluff so have him take one and then decide the route. He owes the total truth to you and should himself ask what he can do to evidence it.

Unfortunately trickle truth and rug sweeping are most waywards way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Eli-zor. That is a good idea. I will save it for later use; at this point I know he will see me bringing up something like that as a kneejerk reaction to things, like a "you do this because I say so, dance to my tune, it's all my way or the highway" etc.

I actually feel better after a chat we had earlier. He was very sincere, if still a little frustrated. Sometimes this happens, I take a while to contemplate things. We realised we are different in this way: he thinks something over, asks me, takes my answer then moves on. I have to contemplate, ask him, go away, think some more, ask him again, go away, process it all, probably ask him some more, and then I am finding I feel some kind of "ease" as something clicks into place.

I am feeling I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I feel sincerity from him. We had a heart-to-heart and he talked deeply about his feelings, and some things to do with the OW that helped. I also sensed a fear somewhere from him. I was talking about how ultimately the issue wasn't what he might have done that I didn't know, but the fact that I had this doubt, and we could be sure that this wouldn't be the last time something would crop up that would make me question things, and that I didn't know if I could live with having to handle this on a regular basis. I said I felt tortured at how he had changed the dynamic of the marriage, and the great thing about having complete trust in someone is you never have to think about it except when you are appreciating it. Not trusting someone? The complete opposite.

We are at truce point now. I think the wisest thing is to create some kind of strategy with which to handle anything like this that may come up in the future. He is very clear that he would want me to come directly to him to talk about stuff instead of mulling it over.


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## 8yearscheating (Oct 14, 2010)

How about phone spy software or does he have a IPhone?


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

8yearscheating said:


> How about phone spy software or does he have a IPhone?


Not an iPhone no. I have contemplated this. I do have access to his cellphone records so I know who he is calling and messaging.

I feel a little better now we have called a truce. I feel more focussed in looking forward. It helps a lot to not be looking backwards. We are talking about a holiday together just us two. I think my talk last night about not being sure if I could handle these kinds of situations inevitably cropping up shook him a little. I can feel him reaching out a lot. I have been recently sensing some kind of change in him. It is hard to describe, but apart from this setback, he has been doing more than ever since I found out to meet my needs. Yes he gets frustrated. But he is good at hearing what I want.

Like, I have been noticing him leaving his phone out when he goes for a shower. Planning a holiday just me and him because he loves the idea of just me and him relaxing somewhere in the country away from it all (this is a part of our quality time issue and it was such a big thing to hear without any prompting.) He has been coming out with some compliments that I would have said before were things too mushy for me to consider him ever saying. He seems to have developed a sensitive side; I thought he was being sarcastic when he complimented me a couple of times (he can be rather sarcastic at times) and he got offended that I didn't believe him.

I feel the trust but verify idea is one I will adhere to for now for reassurance.


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## Sporty01 (Aug 15, 2012)

I asked my H what happened to all his text messages...he told me it was because they take up too much space....funny though he tends to leave mine on there. Go with your gut.


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