# counseling vs a board like TAM



## NobodySpecial

So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


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## uhtred

I haven't been to a counselor, so I don't have a good comparison. TAM seems to vary a lot by topic - sometimes its balanced, sometimes wildly unbalanced. Of course counselers can be biased as well. TAM by its nature usually only gets one of the participants in a disagreement. (or maybe that was your original point). 

For me, TAM has had mixed effects. Its let me understand my issue better - but in a lot of ways it has greatly added to my frustration / misery by letting me see other couples who do not have my problem (though of course they may have others). For better or for worse it makes me very aware that my situation is not typical, and that I could change things, if only I were willing to face the cost of doing so. (where cost is harming the woman I love). I've often thought of stopping reading here - even though I find it interesting and enjoyable.


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## oldshirt

I see it like asking advice for folk remedies from wise old grandmothers vs seeing a licensed medical doctor. 

It may be fine to get a folk remedy for a muscle tension headache, but you wouldn't want to rely on it for cancer, stroke or a heart attack. 

We are not trained professionals, we do not have each side of the story and we have no legal, professional or ethical obligation of competence. Nothing we say and no advice we offer should be construed as therapy, counseling or legal advice. 

In fact I believe Athol Kay, author of the "Married Man Sex Life" material got a little talking to by some form of licensing board as his advice and coaching was getting too close to therapy for which he is not credentialed for. 

Now that all being said, I do believe that TAM and forums like this do have value. It can be helpful to hear about common experiences and helpful to hear what others have gone through and hear about what helped them. 

That being said, we've all done the wrong things and made big mistakes at various points. Is the train engineer of the trainwreck really the person we want counseling us on how to not derail ourselves????

The real value I see of TAM and other similar boards is not the nuts and bolts steps that one should take to remedy marital problems and open channels of communication to better understand the needs, abilities and limitation of the other party - that is the role of trained and credential professionals in therapy and counseling. 

The value of TAM is the commeraderie and support of someone that has been through something similar and helping someone stand up for the own best interests and not be manipulated, used and taken advantage of. 

I can't give you any insight, remedies or therapies on your marital problems, some days I barely make it through the day in my own marriage. But I can see the signs of when you are being chumped and taken advantage of and can pat you on the back and coach you on how to stand up for yourself and not be exploited and manipulated.


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## Mr.Married

I think it is like reading a book. It contains a lot of information but there are only a few things you pick up here and there that you can actually try / use / think about in your own life.


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## minimalME

Hmmm.

I read posters giving the other side all the time. :scratchhead:

I think a counselor would have to be really, really good for me to trust them. During my separation, I tried one, and she was really no different than hanging out with a friend. Except that I was paying her $175 an hour. 

Since my ex-husband was unwilling to cooperate, in the end it wasn't worth it to me.

I think asking for help here is similar to talking to friends. Lots of opinions - both helpful and not so much.

When I have a problem, and I want to get to the heart of it, there are only a couple of people here I want to hear from, so I write to them privately.


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## RandomDude

Ey? Meh, there's value in both. In the end we all have to find our own solutions. Sometimes therapy helps, other times TAM helps. Sometimes just writing sh-t down and having people comment on it helps. Peer review and all


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## FrazzledSadHusband

TAM showed me that sometimes you have to be counter intuitive, 
"You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it."
"Don't beg, plead your spouse"

Sometimes counselors will not be brutally honest, which is what some of us actually need.

Sometimes counselors will bring their own views in to conversation, under the guise of "I'm a licensed counselor". I had a divorced female counselor try her best to hang my balls on her wall. Even my wife admitted that. On TAM I think most people are aware that we are all a bunch of schmucks. 

Prayer, TAM , https://forgivenwife.com/ , and a couple of close friends have done way more for my marriage than a counselor ever did.


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## oldshirt

Now can the advice given and received here on TAM be detrimental or even harmful?? 

ABSOLUTELY YES IT CAN!!!!!!

Remember we are the Trainwrecks and ones that drove off the rails. Things may not be our 'fault' per se, but in a way, asking us for advice is like walking into your doctors office and asking the sick people in the waiting room for advice on how to cure your disease. 

Are you going to ask the guy with his missing fingers in a paper bag wraped in cold packs on how to fix your table saw?? He may be able to tell you one thing NOT to do after the fact, but he is obviously not the table saw expert.

The advice and recommendations here can cause someone to nuke a marriage from orbit that could otherwise be turned around and saved into a long-lasting happy and healthy union. 

And the advice given here could also inspire someone to remain in a terribly toxic and abusive relationship when what they really need is to pull the ejection handle and punch out immediately before the whole things plunges into the ground in a spectacular ball of flames and flying debris. 

While I do not have anywhere near 100% faith and confidence in professional therapists and counselors, we must all concede that a trained and credentialed professional is going to have a better grasp of a given situation once he/she has made a thorough and methodical assessment of all sides of an issue that us Trainwreck Engineers that get a few paragraphs from one side that is often written in the heat of the moment. 

So yes, the advice and reccomendations given here can be detrimental. 

And quite frankly, the reccomendations given by professionals can also be detrimental.


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## snorkel

Maybe if both partners posted here it could be more helpful?

One on one therapy can be better than forums or it can be worse.

Depends on the aptitude of the therapist and how effective the patient is at communicating the real issues.


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## MEM2020

It seems as if many folks prefer to put more effort into persuading other folks in similar situations to do the thing they would do if only they had sufficient courage. 

Typically that means either severely punishing or leaving a LD partner or a cheating partner. 

In the simplest sense, these posters are far more focused on punishing the (badly behaved) person who isn’t here, than helping the person who is here - take a hard look in the mirror. 

Shouldn’t be all that surprised though - destruction is far easier than creation.





NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


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## Lostinthought61

I grew up listening to Car Talk and while they gave great advice on car problems in the end i still want to a mechanic for my car problem...one of my degrees is in psychology, my father was a psychiatrist and i was raise knee deep in his teachings, but i would never put a shingle out my door and tell people i am a psychologist. This is an open forum in which everyone can part take and provide advice and thoughts, but they are just that advice and thoughts, they are there to help stimulate your thinking on the situation. The advice and thoughts that the posters display is their view of a situation and possibly from both side, they share what similar efforts they went through and as well their own shortcoming on that same effort. I think on a general sense it is given with honesty and integrity, 
but make no mistake about, it should not replace professional help. But let me make it also clear that there are a lot of quacks who call themselves professional as well who should never dispense advice. let me leave you with two thoughts 

1. my father used to repeat this over and over again. the majority of his patients could solve their own problem if they just stood back and applied common sense, but as long as they don't they come to him.

2. A smart man only believes half of what he hears, a wise man knows which half.


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## MEM2020

Our MC - who is terrific - taught me two things that had a huge uplift effect on our marriage:
1. Anger is a secondary emotion 
2. M2 is not doing things TO me, nearly as much as she is doing them FOR herself





NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


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## NobodySpecial

MEM2020 said:


> Our MC - who is terrific - taught me two things that had a huge uplift effect on our marriage:
> 1. Anger is a secondary emotion
> 2. M2 is not doing things TO me, nearly as much as she is doing them FOR herself


Our MC requires us to own our own ****. Love that. One of DH's issues is that he has a hard time advocating for himself. So he feels he is not getting what he needs, and I feel like I am aiming at the wrong goals. We BOTH filter the others' words and actions though our own fears and insecurities. So I will attribute things he says and does to things that he does not mean. He less so. She is helping A Lot. It does help that we are both totally in the game. I think if anyone thinks their counselor has a magic pill to make things all better, they will be disappointed.


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## sokillme

Depends, I fell like some of the advice given on here is just basic common sense. Leave someone who is abusing you. Stick up for yourself. Doing the same thing over and over when it's not changing anything is a mistake. If you treat you spouse like crap they are probably going to leave you, stop treating them like crap.

I think most of us suggest counseling in most circumstances anyway. I know I do. 

I see this place kind of like triage. Get the person stable and then get them to the experts. Unfortunately not everyone has access or can afford counseling. Plus by the time your problems are bad enough that you are posting on message boards their is a good chance it's too late.


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## MEM2020

NS,
For MC to succeed you need a skilled MC and two people who are truly engaged and reasonably self aware. 

It amazes me how many folks are angry and bitter that the MC didn’t fix their marriage. 





NobodySpecial said:


> Our MC requires us to own our own ****. Love that. One of DH's issues is that he has a hard time advocating for himself. So he feels he is not getting what he needs, and I feel like I am aiming at the wrong goals. We BOTH filter the others' words and actions though our own fears and insecurities. So I will attribute things he says and does to things that he does not mean. He less so. She is helping A Lot. It does help that we are both totally in the game. I think if anyone thinks their counselor has a magic pill to make things all better, they will be disappointed.


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## Ms. GP

MEM2020 said:


> It seems as if many folks prefer to put more effort into persuading other folks in similar situations to do the thing they would do if only they had sufficient courage.
> 
> Typically that means either severely punishing or leaving a LD partner or a cheating partner.
> 
> In the simplest sense, these posters are far more focused on punishing the (badly behaved) person who isn’t here, than helping the person who is here - take a hard look in the mirror.
> 
> Shouldn’t be all that surprised though - destruction is far easier than creation.


This 100 percent!! Some boards more than others and some posters more than others. My experience with MC was she didn't take sides in any arguments but gave us techniques to communicate better and solve them ourselves.


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## NobodySpecial

Ms. GP said:


> This 100 percent!! Some boards more than others and some posters more than others. My experience with MC was she didn't take sides in any arguments but gave us techniques to communicate better and solve them ourselves.


Same.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?



I thought the same. TAM is entertaining to read but on balance, probably not especially helpful. Notice how counsellors would never dream to judge anyone. It’s the complete opposite here where everyone is judging everyone (I do it too of course. Can’t help it).
There is maybe 1 post for every 50 or so that is valuable. 
You have to wade through a lot to filter out useful stuff.

In some ways it is helpful though.
For example reading other people’s stories and thoughts can you make you realise stuff about yourself and where you yourself could be wrong and change your perspective on things. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117

As someone who has spent a fair amount of time with counseling and with TAM I think TAM is raw data more than it is intelligence. 

Counseling is specific to the individual, TAM is an aggregation. 

Is it useful? Yeah. 

A counselor won't divulge stats or what's his or her batting average. TAM makes it quite easy to determine an aggregate. 

TAM is useful in the same way my company collects and analyzes reviews of our products (if you thought the peanut gallery here is tough you have not experienced Reddit boards or Amazon reviews). One or two bad reviews won't kill you but a hundred will.


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## Laurentium

Counselling and using TAM are two totally different things. 

The function of counseling should never be to give you "advice" as to what to do, or who is right. (If it is, I have grave suspicions about your counselor). TAM, on the other hand, will provide you with loads of advice and right/wrong judgements. 

What marriage counseling does is (or should be) completely different. Both of the couple are present, and the purpose is not for either of them to "win the argument". It's for the counselor to observe *how* they are arguing, in real time, and get them to look at it differently. 

for example this:


> 1. Anger is a secondary emotion
> 2. M2 is not doing things TO me, nearly as much as she is doing them FOR herself


Also:



MEM2020 said:


> It seems as if many folks prefer to put more effort into persuading other folks in similar situations to do the thing they would do *if only they had sufficient courage*.
> 
> Typically that means either severely punishing or leaving a LD partner or a cheating partner.


Yeah, this ^^^^ exactly. There is a lot of revenge by proxy here.


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## MEM2020

The other factor contributing to the tone is the many posters who create threads with the goal being to elicit sympathy, not help.

Though I’ve come round to thinking that the biggest obstacle to progress for most folks is not communication. It is instead that their ego protective reflexes prevent any hope of improvement. 




Ms. GP said:


> This 100 percent!! Some boards more than others and some posters more than others. My experience with MC was she didn't take sides in any arguments but gave us techniques to communicate better and solve them ourselves.


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## MEM2020

Laurentium,

Your post made me laugh - on a different thread I wrote about how prevalent proxy warfare is on TAM.





Laurentium said:


> Counselling and using TAM are two totally different things.
> 
> The function of counseling should never be to give you "advice" as to what to do, or who is right. (If it is, I have grave suspicions about your counselor). TAM, on the other hand, will provide you with loads of advice and right/wrong judgements.
> 
> What marriage counseling does is (or should be) completely different. Both of the couple are present, and the purpose is not for either of them to "win the argument". It's for the counselor to observe *how* they are arguing, in real time, and get them to look at it differently.
> 
> for example this:
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, this ^^^^ exactly. There is a lot of revenge by proxy here.


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


Sometimes, yes and at other times, no.

Getting only one side is definitely tricky but at other times, TAM has given insights, help and resources that a counselor often would not consider.

There are many couples in counseling where one partner is cheating their ass off and it is never discovered or addressed.

I've seen TAM uncover a case of infidelity or two that had an unsuspecting spouse confused and running in circles until addressed.


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## john117

What a casual observation may point to as "ego protection" is also likely to be caused by lack of information presented. 

TAM misses the one on one nuances of human contact big time.


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## MEM2020

The book recommendations are often helpful. 

You can’t give people common sense or determination. Most folks are only stuck - because they fear change. 




sokillme said:


> Depends, I fell like some of the advice given on here is just basic common sense. Leave someone who is abusing you. Stick up for yourself. Doing the same thing over and over when it's not changing anything is a mistake. If you treat you spouse like crap they are probably going to leave you, stop treating them like crap.
> 
> I think most of us suggest counseling in most circumstances anyway. I know I do.
> 
> I see this place kind of like triage. Get the person stable and then get them to the experts. Unfortunately not everyone has access or can afford counseling. Plus by the time your problems are bad enough that you are posting on message boards their is a good chance it's too late.


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## Ms. GP

MEM2020 said:


> The other factor contributing to the tone is the many posters who create threads with the goal being to elicit sympathy, not help.
> 
> Though I’ve come round to thinking that the biggest obstacle to progress for most folks is not communication. It is instead that their ego protective reflexes prevent any hope of improvement.


I agree. I can certainly empathize with change being difficult and sometimes the devil you know is less scary than the devil you don't. I think a lot boils down to self esteem and self defeating thoughts. (I can't do any better, all men/women are crazy, so I might as well stick it out). I really believe living with a sick/ toxic spouse can make the other person sick as well. The absurd becomes normal. They think if they do more and more for the person, they will get the love and respect they deserve. They may receive it for a short while but they always end up hurt. They keep watering the same dead plant.


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## MEM2020

Ms. GP,
Our MC explained that M2 was doing things* for herself* (to feel *less bad*) as opposed to doing them TO ME.

At that point, I realized the MC was right and conducted a comprehensive *phobia analysis* of M2. 

Once I identified M2’s phobias, I began addressing them with her. My message was: everyone has phobias, and it can be difficult to cope with them. I’m here to help. My tone was soft and soothing. 

Here we are - almost 10 years later - M2 openly expresses her phobias - I am both playful and supportive when she does. 

Painful as it is - I’ll describe the before and after (MC):

Before therapy:
I would ask M2 to come to the gym with me. She’d decline. I would go. Upon my return - M2 would do something really painful without warning, explanation or change in affect. We have come to call this: emotionally sucker punching your partner

She isn’t sadistic or hateful. She’s a pragmatist. All she was doing was trying to discourage me from doing stuff without her.

After therapy:
M2 will openly say - are you really going to leave me to go run on the treadmill? (Her tone is playful - but she is expressing a very genuine preference for me to not go)

And I run one of two plays when she does that, the first is intended to light up the real issue, the second to soothe. Or in biological terms the first is a dopamine play, the second an endorphin release. 

1. I can’t come up with a better excuse to free up an hour so I can rendezvous with my little FWB/honey.
2. Babe, I’m mainly going to the grocery store pick up a bunch of treats for you, treadmill just happens to be smack dab in the middle of my route home.

(1) Opens the door for M2 to get physical if she’s suffering a high level of anxiety 
(2) Just defuses the whole situation 

More importantly, there’s no condescension in either case. I’m not only afraid of heights, I have an equal fear of height by proxy. Meaning - it scares the hell out of me to see other people at the edge of a long drop. M2 is kind about my phobias, just as I am of hers. 





Ms. GP said:


> I agree. I can certainly empathize with change being difficult and sometimes the devil you know is less scary than the devil you don't. I think a lot boils down to self esteem and self defeating thoughts. (I can't do any better, all men/women are crazy, so I might as well stick it out). I really believe living with a sick/ toxic spouse can make the other person sick as well. The absurd becomes normal. They think if they do more and more for the person, they will get the love and respect they deserve. They may receive it for a short while but they always end up hurt. They keep watering the same dead plant.


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## Ms. GP

Great example Mem. I was more referring to relationships that are really destructive. Everyone has their phobias and nuances that make them unique. The recovery world has a saying "sick people attract sick people." As long as one person isn't kissing the other person's ass too much. Know what I mean?


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## Noble1

For myself, the value of something like TAM is the vast experience that other posters can provide in almost any situation.

There is something to be said about experience and if you can learn from the experience from others - why not.

While "TAM" as a whole may not have proper credentials and such, the first hand knowledge and experience in 'similar' situations may be useful in many cases.

Even if the support is along the lines of 'been there, done that', at least there is some feeling that someone out there has some basic feeling of what you are going through.


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## arbitrator

*I've only been to two counselors in the duration of my lifetime: my RSXW's, and one Christian counselor that I used during my separation/divorce from her!

I consider coming to TAM, at least for me, as an absolute Godsend, in that I got more common sense advise here than I ever did from those other counselors!*


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## Daisy12

While I don’t feel that TAM replaces a quality therapist, and the advice on here has not always been good or constructive but what it helped me with is to make me feel like I was not alone. When my husbands porn issues got tumbled out in the open I felt so alone and scared that It was all my fault and there was something wrong with me. Hearing other people’s stories of how the were going through the same problems that I had in my marriage made me feel not so isolated.

I needed someone to talk to and to bounce my thoughts and feeling off of and since this was not an issue I wanted to involve my family in, I felt like I had no one to turn to. I searched online for help and found this board and well 2 years later, this site may have helped me save my marriage as my first instinct was to run from all the pain that my husband was inflicting on me, but with the insight of the people here I became to realize that I myself have been inflicting pain on my husband our whole marriage as well. Once I changed, he changed and I made those changes with a the help of a therapist. 

So in my case both was valuable in helping my marriage.


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## Quality

TAM is not a Christian forum. If you are a Christian and you and/or your marriage are under spiritual attack, the attack will continue here as well in the intermittent form of discouragement and hopelessness. 

But for the discerning Christian, there is help to be had on infidelity forums. Lots of betrayed spouses, Christian and non-Christian that have dealt with very upfront and personal evil at a relationship level and persevered. Collectively we all help hurting people feel a lot less isolated and powerless and provide them some wisdom to discover and deal with the reality {the truth} of their situation.

TAM and Marriage Building forums seem to be the best because they both encourage widespread exposure of sin as the first and most powerful weapon against adultery {a biblical principle - Ephesians 5:11}. After that it's a mix bag of 'help'. 

Unfortunately, the devastation of adultery rarely leaves a person in a very discerning position. They find themselves alone in a position they've never been before and have no schema to figure out for themselves. They are clueless what to do next knowing only they have an overwhelming fear about dealing with or talking about it with others in real life so they end up here and other infidelity forums on the internet at the whims of the posting Gods as to who {or what} will respond 1st, 2nd and 3rd to their desperate pleas for understanding and answers. Unfortunately, getting good or the best answers quickly isn't super likely anywhere. Most get some eventually but they'd be wise to listen and keep talking and use forums as a data point BEFORE running back to their spouses and trying to implement one singular misplaced notion or idea after another hoping to push the right button and "fix" everything.


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## Lila

NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. *Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. *Thoughts?


It's apples to oranges. 

I think TAM serves a specific purpose - to provide a place for people to commiserate over their individual situations. The danger is that constant commiseration can cause people to get stuck in a tidal pool of misery, a.k.a misery lots company. People can also get stuck in a feedback loop where the same advice is given by different people over time but yielding no success. They try A, B, C, D over a period of x months only to return to be given A, B, C, D by a whole new set of posters. 

Professional counselors know the patients history, develop rapport with their patients, keep records of the advice given and results, and provide consistency throughout the process. And ftr, marital counseling was a bust for me but my individual counseling and my husband's individual sex therapy were worth their weight in gold. 

Basically, TAM is a place to unload issues and _maybe_ hear from others who have experienced the same problems. However, it should not be in any way used as a replacement for professional counseling or coaching. 


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## RoseAglow

IMO TAM is a wonderful place to get help with 1. Finding ways to sniff out infidelity and 2. Personal recovery for people who are getting a divorce. Otherwise, speaking broadly, I don't think it is very good at improving or saving marriages, and certainly for some posters it has been a destructive force on their marriage. 

That isn't to say that there aren't some great finds here (I think @MEM2020's insight of the spouse "not doing this To You but instead doing it to help the person feel better" is likely widely applicable and could be very helpful, as an immediate example.) The default direction here is Divorce in nearly all cases, and while that is an appropriate direction sometimes, I doubt it is the appropriate direction as frequently as one finds here.


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## NextTimeAround

I recall on the chump Lady site, one of posters identified himself as an MC who used the "two sides to every story," "the betrayed has to take some of the blame" type of therapy. He admitted that when he became a betrayed spouse, he revolutionised his approach to therapy. Ah yes, when the garbage comes on to your turf, then you see the problem i your methods......

TAM has been good to me. Joining in 2011, a couple of male poster helped me to see the light in what is so fundamentally wrong with male female relationships. That is, whenever a man and a woman go out one on one, it's date. You can call it whatever you want, but it's a date. The man pays -- as my future husband did --; provides transportation -- as my husband did -- and will talk about very private confidential things --as my husband did and not see that he was treating some other woman better than the woman he was expecting more from ........ which is what the problem is with male female relationships.

The therapists that I have encountered will challenge me on this matter. What's the problem with having opposite sex friends? What's the problem with women calling your husband every now and then? (and they don't even bother to quantify how often "every now and then" is). They made me feel as if I was the problem. While everyone around me didn't have a problem. Women friends told me that their husbands did have any female friends .....at the same time that they would call my husband.......

Therapists will also never advise you to do your own research, if you know what I mean. And if you admit to having done just that, you end up spending your hard earned money on someone chastising you for "keeping your own counsel. 

Hey, if large corporates can examine a job seeker's Facebook profile without any kind of public shaming, why can't an individual do the same? It's not all the time that the hiring manager just happens to be FB friends with the respective job seeker? What kind of acceptable subterfuge did they use to have access to someone's FB wall?

I also found therapists VERY judgemental. ie Well, you've had this problem before ..... as if there were no solution for me.

I also find that they can be very arrogant. When I ask follow up questions, they may say, you asked me my opinion and I gave it to you. The last time a therapist said that to me --on my dime, or euro, to be more exact -- I told her that I was paying for her time and I expected an answer to my follow up questions.

If people find therapists that have helped them out of a rut, good for them. But I think therapists, like all professional advisers, need a short leash in which you regularly assess whether you are getting value for money.


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## NobodySpecial

Lila said:


> It's apples to oranges.
> 
> I think TAM serves a specific purpose - to provide a place for people to commiserate over their individual situations. The danger is that constant commiseration can cause people to get stuck in a tidal pool of misery, a.k.a misery lots company. People can also get stuck in a feedback loop where the same advice is given by different people over time but yielding no success. They try A, B, C, D over a period of x months only to return to be given A, B, C, D by a whole new set of posters.
> 
> Professional counselors know the patients history, develop rapport with their patients, keep records of the advice given and results, and provide consistency throughout the process. And ftr, marital counseling was a bust for me but my individual counseling and my husband's individual sex therapy were worth their weight in gold.
> 
> Basically, TAM is a place to unload issues and _maybe_ hear from others who have experienced the same problems. However, it should not be in any way used as a replacement for professional counseling or coaching.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Agreed.


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## As'laDain

NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


i think counseling only works when both people are willing to listen and consider the perspective of the other person and are willing to be honest. unfortunately, a lot of people end up here after they have already tried counseling and failed. 

i think its like everything else... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. depends on the situation. sometimes TAM helps, sometimes it doesn't. depends on the situation.


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## personofinterest

Well there are forums and there are forums...

I think most people would agree that the purpose of a forum (I mean, let's look at the origin of the word. Actually let's don't, but wikipedia has it) is a group discussion in which a variety of perspectives are discussed with the goal of obtaining some sort of clarity or benefit. I enjoy forums where I may not actually agree with everyone and it is OKAY not to agree with everyone. I have my own biases: I don't understand women who don't like sex who get married anyway, and I don't understand men who seem to hate women and yet still feel entitled to have sex with one.

My biggest pet peeve is the cult mindset. A lighter word might be "groupthink," but cult is a lot closer to nailing it in some places.

I also agree with MEM (I think that's the name) who talks about punishing. This is especially true when the "sock it to 'em" becomes the focus, even years later after someone has left the forum altogether. Then we have crossed over from advice into neuroticism.

I think in order to get benefit from a forum without being dragged down by it, you have to learn to take what makes sense and let go of the rest. And if only one voice is allowed....run. You don't want to find yourself drinking odd-tasting kool-aid or getting "fair gamed" lol


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## wilson

As'laDain said:


> i think counseling only works when both people are willing to listen and consider the perspective of the other person and are willing to be honest. unfortunately, a lot of people end up here after they have already tried counseling and failed.


Right. If both people are going to counseling because they want to be there and are willing to do the work, it can be helpful. But if someone is resistant, it may be of limited benefit.

It's like going to dance class. If you want to learn out to dance, it can be great and you'll learn a lot. But if you think it's stupid and are just going because your spouse is forcing you, you won't become a better dancer.

I think counseling can be great for talking through issues and gaining insight into the other person's perspective. Sometimes it helps to have a 3rd party guide the conversation in a constructive manner.

I'm not sure if traditional counseling is useful for trying to fix sexless marriages. When I went, it was all discussions about understanding each other, our childhoods, trying to reconnect, etc. While that's all good, it's too roundabout and lets the LD person avoid responsibility. They can sit back and say "I'll want sex when we connect more. If I don't want sex, it means we haven't connected enough." I'd rather the counselor tried to convey that sex wasn't optional in marriage, and that the LD partner has some responsibility to address the problem. It's the same as many other attributes of marriage--shared support of the household, companionship, fidelity, etc. You can't say something like "I don't feel like working anymore, so I'm just staying home and playing video games unless you entice me to work." and still expect to stay married. But the counselors seem to think that it's fine to have that attitude about sex.

I think if I tried counseling again for lack of sex, I would first pre-screen to find out if they thought that sex/intimacy is one of the founding principles of a marriage or if they think it's something optional like going on fancy vacations.


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## Laurentium

wilson said:


> I think if I tried counseling again for lack of sex, I would first pre-screen to find out if they thought that sex/intimacy is one of the founding principles of a marriage or if they think it's something optional like going on fancy vacations.


Hmm. But you might find that your (supposed) partner would, on hearing the former answer, refuse to see that counselor! It happens.


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## Haiku

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


There is no substitute for a therapist. Too much advice on TAM is compromised by insufficient information yet given unequivocally. There are a few community members who give sound advice, but most common are recommendations based in unhealthy unresolved anger.


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## personofinterest

Haiku said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> There is no substitute for a therapist. Too much advice on TAM is compromised by insufficient information yet given unequivocally. There are a few community members who give sound advice, but most common are recommendations based in unhealthy unresolved anger.
Click to expand...

This.

While forums can be very helpful, it is abundantly clear on pretty much all of them.that projection, trying to live vicariously, and proxy punishment are regular fare.


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## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a *decent* counselor. Thoughts?


One has to hope and pray that the counselor is decent..... over and above being properly certified.


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## BluesPower

personofinterest said:


> This.
> 
> While forums can be very helpful, it is abundantly clear on pretty much all of them.that projection, trying to live vicariously, and proxy punishment are regular fare.


You know, I agree that there is some of this going on. But IMHO, not quite as much as some want to believe. 

Those of us that have lived this, and then found different forums, books, and whatnot about infidelity, mental illness, personal growth, boundaries, breaking free of codependency, learning your self worth, all of that... We have an understanding. 

When can almost always tell from a couple of clues, 1) if they are cheating, 2) are there other issues 3) but the cheaters actions, where their (the cheaters) head is at. 

Not we are not always right, but most of the time the conclusions are correct. 

And as far as infidelity, or someone that is so inexperienced in relationships that's they cannot understand that they are in an abusive relationship, I think these forums are very helpful...

Of course, therapy with a GOOOD counselor is almost always a must... 

And there in lies the problem. While there are surely a host of really good counselors, therapist, MC's and others, there is a huge amount of horrible ones. 

People that don't know the difference, well ... they just don't know the difference. 

Case in point, the MC whose first words were, "Let's look at the issues that caused the affair...", or "Let's move past the affair", and on and on. 

I think a lot of people have a story about MC's that think that way because that "school" of thought is so pervasive in the modern western culture.


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## heartsbeating

NobodySpecial said:


> So DH and I are in counseling right now. We happened upon a really great one a few years ago during a rough patch. So we are back to her to iron some stuff out. We definitely don't tend to wait until we are DONE to reach out. Two sessions in only and we both have clarity we previously lacked. One observation I have is that she is very good at helping us see the OTHER side of things. This is exactly the opposite of what happens here. Through no fault of posters since we only get one side, I wonder if TAM can actually be more destructive than helpful compared to a decent counselor. Thoughts?


Counseling was positive for us. He quickly established with us that we were there to gain understanding and insight of one another, as well as ourselves, rather than to achieve a specific outcome. The sessions were raw and messy yet he navigated our dynamic at that time in a beneficial way. 

I entered with negative preconceived notions, including what he as a counselor might be like, to then realize I quickly felt trust and appreciated the candid way he communicated with me/us.

A forum couldn't have impacted us the same way. Although I think a forum of sharing experiences and perspectives can be helpful... just not to the depth of understanding as counseling.


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## Cletus

The rampant amateur psychotherapy practiced here in parallel with a healthy dose of projection makes TAM probably about as useful as a bad counselor.

It makes for a fun hobby, but I wouldn't place my marriage in its hands.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## heartsbeating

MEM2020 said:


> Though I’ve come round to thinking that the biggest obstacle to progress for most folks is not communication. It is instead that their ego protective reflexes prevent any hope of improvement.


Ego-protection... absolutely. 

I found a marriage questionnaire Batman and I each completed a few years ago (unrelated to the councilor). At the time his responses caused my ego to feel hurt and defensive. With those walls up, it can be difficult to be objective about ourselves and compassionate towards the other. Reading those answers now, years later, elicited a different response. I understood where he was coming from and with objectivity, can be helpful.


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## Cletus

MEM2020 said:


> The other factor contributing to the tone is the many posters who create threads with the goal being to elicit sympathy, not help.
> 
> Though I’ve come round to thinking that the biggest obstacle to progress for most folks is not communication. It is instead that their ego protective reflexes prevent any hope of improvement.


Which is what a good counselor would try to overcome. 

What's one of the most offered pieces of advice here? Take what you like, and leave the rest. How many people are ignoring the advice that they desperately need because it doesn't comport with their idea of correctness? Most of us, probably, most of the time.


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## MEM2020

Same here. Counseling was very hard in the beginning. 




heartsbeating said:


> Ego-protection... absolutely.
> 
> I found a marriage questionnaire Batman and I each completed a few years ago (unrelated to the councilor). At the time his responses caused my ego to feel hurt and defensive. With those walls up, it can be difficult to be objective about ourselves and compassionate towards the other. Reading those answers now, years later, elicited a different response. I understood where he was coming from and with objectivity, can be helpful.


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## 269370

Quality said:


> TAM and Marriage Building forums seem to be the best because they both encourage widespread exposure of sin as the first and most powerful weapon against adultery {a biblical principle - Ephesians 5:11}. After that it's a mix bag of 'help'.



I never found the advice of widespread exposure that helpful. The main reason given is that it helps the WS snap out of the fog but I always felt the main motivation is to exercise vindictiveness (very Unchristian!) and regain some form of control. In fact the Christian thing to do would surely be to try and forgive especially if it was a one-off mistake (thoughtless ONS or similar).
Exposure, VARs, polygraph etc...I don’t know. I’m not Christian and think it’s ironic that I would lean towards a more Christian view compared to the approach of many Christians (“scorched earth” approach).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Betrayedone

Cletus said:


> The rampant amateur psychotherapy practiced here in parallel with a healthy dose of projection makes TAM probably about as useful as a bad counselor.
> 
> It makes for a fun hobby, but I wouldn't place my marriage in its hands.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


WOW! Based on my experience with "professional" counseling I find that TAM is probably of greater value than anything I ever had to pay for. The opinions are varied and come from many backgrounds. Sort the wheat from the chaff and take from it what works for you. I found this forum an INDESPENSIBLE part of my 3 prong recovery......Which is why I am still here...I feel an obligation to share what I have learned.


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## msrv23

In our case we went to two counselors and the first was bad. Initially we did learn a bit about communicating better, but she was not empathetic and later even belittled and joked when I said that I was uncomfortable about something. At first I simply hanged on because I thought to myself that it’s supposed to make me uncomfortable and for the sake of our marriage I should listen and learn, but later my husband also said that he felt the same, that she was also unempathetic and even felt judgmental to him too.
The second one was empathetic but even after sessions we didn’t dig deeper. It was more about replaying some conflicts and what we could have said rather than analysing and solving the patterns. We felt understood but not much useful advice.

Later I have found us a book called “How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It” and it was spot on and much more useful. It was right on our pattern, and appealed to compassion. Which is what I felt we were missing. It also taught me how to deal with my resentment. It’s just frustrating how a book which costs 1/3 of a session is much helpful but maybe we were unlucky. I don’t know if I want to try thought because a new counselor means more time and money, and waiting two weeks for a session sucks.

TAM is nice and I have noticed thoughtful advices which comes from experience and wisdom. Of course sometimes some might project then punish through unnecessarily harsh comments, but if we can understand where they come from and choose comments that apply it can be useful.


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