# sometimes one just needs....



## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

... a place to off load. So, I have registered, and now I am here. I don't expect magic solutions, I don't even want easy answers because there aren't any. All I need is to be able to tell my story somewhere fairly anonymous, so I hope I have found the right sort of place.

I need to start 2009 with a heap load of will-power, strength and vision. 

Where I stand now, I am not in love with my husband anymore and haven't been for a number of years (been married 18 years). He is hearing impaired and has limitations - hard to define ones - sort of slow to learn from negative events, impulsive. a psychologist once concluded he has borderline personality disorder, but I am not convinced that is quite what it is.
We have three sons aged 17, 10 and 7. The 7 year old is the most advanced reader in his class, but is showing signs of learning difficulties and socializing difficulties and also doesn't condition easily (like his dad - possibly due to a delay in starting breathing at birth?) 
The boys love their Dad and he loves them. I care enough about them all not to want to wrench this family apart just on account of me, but I am human too, and wish with all my heart I had a loving relationship with a man who was my intellectual equal and shared my many and varied interests (for eg the only magazine that grabs my attention is New Scientist).
This husband of mine is supposed to cope with keeping the house clean since I spend 8 hours a day (or more when overtime is required) working as a nurse. is eight hours a day enough to do the washing, cleaning and cooking or am I completely unrealistic?
There are places in this house that have not been dusted since we moved here 2 years ago. The shower doesn't get cleaned unless I do it.
And now, what has driven me to dump here is then loss of three pairs of slacks to mold because they weren't hung up after being taken out of the washing machine.

Thus far I have not done a complete takeover for several reasons. Firstly, I am lazy. I like to play online games. Secondly, I am often extremely tired due to the fact that I work late shift for the penalty rates. Thirdly, a complete takeover sends the message that the spouse is a failure. I want him to maintain responsibility as far as possible.

However, now I am at the end of my tether. I am tired of living in a dump. I have sooo much to sort out, tidy up, rearrange and clean up. ( LOL - task for Oprah's angels?? - dunno if they visit australia!) I need to find the strength and willpower to tackle it all. I need to remain sane and calm and not let things like mouldy clothes be a negative - hey! an excuse for new clothes!

I need to support my spouse who keeps telling me that I am getting rid of him because he isn't good enough. I have tried explaining that it is a combination of who he is and who I am and maybe it's me that isn't strong enough to cope. 

On Christmas morning he gave me a new alarm clock, bought at one of these cheapskate stands of no-quality Chinese imports. This after I have tried time and again to steer him away from the 2 dollar shops and tried to point out the benefits of warranties and return policies. The clock didn't work. I was a bit upset at the waste of $20. He got upset and yelled that he knew I was getting rid of him because he isn't good enough. I had to calm him down and prayed like crazy the kids hadn't heard anything too significant. He did apologise to them for the way he yelled at me. (They were not present in the room at the time, thankfully)

I am walking a tightrope trying to be honest but prevent harm. mostly the household is fairly calm. All round the dynamics, the deficiencies are a tangled and complicated web with no easy answers.

There. Story told.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

look at it this way, he already senses that there is something wrong, and the true way you feel about him. He has disabilities and maybe the tasks you expect from him and combination with those and depression he simply can get those things done.

Second you have control not only of the relationship, duties of the house but money as well. Maybe he didn't buy the christmas gift where you wanted him to but maybe he couldn't afford to either. Would it have hurt to appeciate the effort?

Third, since you are playing online games how much emotional energy are you sapping from your marriage and family? Why would he want to invest into something that you don't and frankly I would wonder how much flirting you do on those as I know them real well and many are a place for emotional affairs.

draconis


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

Thank you for your candid view, Draconis. 
1) yes, he knows exactly where we stand with the relationship. We have discussed it and agree we both want to work at maintaining a civil household for our boys for the time being.

2) Yes - I control everything. I am a biatch. I keep my husband under my thumb. The last person who told me that was living in our garage and put a fist in my face and then told everyone I walked into his fist. 
Where in my post did I say I controlled the money? I said I am the breadwinner. His ATM card accesses the account that my salary goes into and he can withdraw it all if he wants to. It's a joint account. You fail to comprehend what it is like to pretend over and over that everything is sweet when it isn't. so I failed to express appreciation this time - after 18 years of the same repetitive scenarios.... Oh dear - I'm not superhuman!

3) Sure, I am an online gamer therefore I flirt with other gamers!! Love this one. Stereotypes for the win! I have three sons who play online games too. They love having a mother who understands the gaming world. Feel free to start a character on Warhammer and go ask as many people on the Phoenix Throne and Darklands servers about my flirting habits. Afterall you seem to know how it is - people falling over each other to cyber all the time....

I am not asking him to put any more emotional energy into the relationship than I am. We both have to work at maintaining a civil environment. 

oh yes - and if I wanted to be a control freak I would yell and howl at him every time I came home and everything wasn't up to scratch, wouldn't I? Well I don't. I thank him for what he does. 

I haven't even covered the years past where he spent night after night at the pub til all hours. This has only stopped this year after I could finally afford pay TV for him to stay home and watch his sport. Nor have I covered his leaving our then 7 year old eldest in charge of his baby ( as in under a year) brother while he disappeared to chat to friends and the eldest didn't know where to find him. I asked him to stop that and later learnt he paid the eldest to NOT tell me the situation continued. Yes, it's past, but one never forgets. That something got broken irretrievably hence the current state of the marriage.

But - I am an evil controlling ungrateful biatch - flirting on the internet - apparently.


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## draconis (Oct 3, 2007)

Well by your reply alone I feel for him.

If you read the pm I sent you you'll understand I know much more about gaming in general than most anyone I meet. I own my own game store.

draconis


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst-

Just to balance things... what would be his list of complaints about you?


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Wyst-
> 
> Just to balance things... what would be his list of complaints about you?


It would read something like this:

- I don't return affection - I can't anymore.
- I am untidy at times.

I'm sorry. I am regretting posting here. I don't feel "heard" I feel attacked by men in the ladies lounge.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst-

Amazingly, apart form one person who was banned, I don't see many people on here (since I joined in the summer), - be they male or female- taking a gender view.

I merely asked you to even the score so to speak because you can't expect an unbiased opinion if you only give your side of the problem. 

Also, I am one of those people who looks to see what I am doing to cause a problem, as well as the other person. If it turns out I am part of the cause, then I will have the power to be part of the solution.

So if you feel your husband is 100% of the cause (and I'm not saying that can't be true), then it puts you in a difficult position, because only he can change his behaviour, and he may not want to. If it's 50/50, then at least you can do *something*.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

*takes deep breath*

Ok - I'm sorry. The gender thing is due a button being pushed - that button that implies that I am some sort of control freak biatch that oppresses her spouse. 
I am not that and never have been. 
The last time someone suggested that, the person was a manipulative bastard who was living in our garage on our charity, and he hit me - punched me in the face, refused to apologise and then tried to convince me I had imagined it all in such a way that i a;lmost believed him. It was very frightening. So, I respond badly to men who imply such things even in a round about way. 

You talk about balancing out the picture. Well therein lies the rub! When I chose to marry him, his mother tried to warn me off. I was convinced I would be able to help him in all sorts of ways, teach him to drive, help him find a career he could cope with. Back then I was a Christian and the church as a whole thought it was so "wonderful" that I was willing to learn sign language and marry this deaf chap. 

We got married and I conceived out eldest on honeymoon - way sooner than planned. When we returned to work something I had no prior inkling of started happening. He didn't come home after work. I would worry about him. Eventually I learnt that he was going to the pub after work. It was something totally foreign to me. His nights got later and later and I would cry because he wasn't there with me. He would say he was coming home, and then still he didn't come. Lie after lie...

After the eldest was born, husband's friend moved in with us. At first it was OK, but then the two sort of ganged up on me, never lifting a finger to help with anything. Both regret the way they behaved in those days now, but then they couldn't see it.

The pub pattern never changed. I learnt to avoid him when he got home as he would be argumentative, bolshy. Eventually it became a bargaining chip - if he had time with his mates at the pub, I could ask for time out when I needed it. 

Then the matter of protecting kids. There was the matter of his leaving a baby in the care of a seven year old. The eldest would not know where to find his dad if anything went wrong. I asked the spouse please not to do this - rather take the babe with him when chating to people around the complex, Instead he paid the eldest not to tell me he was still doing this! Imagine if something had happened to the baby while in the care of the eldest?

There have been the compulsive times, the drinking has gone in cycles of getting worse and worse then easing off for a while. For now, it's OK since he's had PayTV, but that is only something we've been able to afford since coming to Australia. 

Interactions with the kids involve having him yell at them when they ask him for something innocent and he has misheard. yes, I do intervene. 

You talk of balance.

I am the breadwinner, the driver, the looker-after-of-everything, I am the one who has to plead and placate, bargain and cajole, remind of priorities, limit harm. 

He doesn't do a fraction around the house that he could. I very rarely complain because my view at this point is that if I don't like it I must do it. I resent the idea that I must work my horrible nursing hours AND do the housekeeping when he is here and could be doing it. 

I stopped loving him about 10 years ago. We nearly ended the marriage then. I thought maybe it would come right again, but it hasn't. The same cycles of his biting my head off left me unable to let him close anymore. God knows I've tried. I have done everything I know how to make it right, to keep it going.

He is dependent on me. He only lived alone for a brief while before moving back to his parents and he was with his parents til we married. So, I have to look after him like a dependent - or maybe I don't, depending on how you look at it. But anyhow as I said in the first post, breaking the family up is not the best course of action at this time.

the 50=50 factor is this: I am not the super saint I thought I was when I married him. I don't have an endless capacity to love when my head gets bitten off regularly. I keep him at arm's length to keep my sanity intact. I am just not "good" enough to be eternally patient, forgiving and sweet. Somewhere along the line I got tired of pretending I was stupid and that I didn't need an intellectual equal. Unfortunately I do. 

When I look back I am tempted to say I failed badly - I failed my spouse in that I didn't listen to the disquiet i felt before we got married. I fialed myself on the same account. I failed my kids in taht I did not provide them with the kind of family I would have liked us to be. However, that is rot. We did the best we could with the knowlege we had at the time. that is all anyone can ever do.

I am not here to "fix" my relationship. I am here to find support and give support to others who choose to keep a loveless and difficult relationship going because it is the less damaging option especially when kids are involved.


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## oties101 (Dec 24, 2008)

Personally, I still do not see the reason you stay with this man. You don't love him, he doesn't do anything around the house, and his interactions with the children are sub-par, in fact, I'd call them negligible and neglectful. 

Do not take this the wrong way, but I believe it IS selfish to stay with a man 'for the kids' when the kids are going to grow up thinking that having a man that doesn't do ANYTHING is perfectly satisfactory. Marriage is a partnership, and if one member isn't pulling his weight, there is no reason to be there.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

you parting from him and even paying him spousal support for a time would make you and your family happier.

Be courageous and retrieve the best of your life from this funk it is in.

The whole relationship is moldy!


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

Lol - moldy! Nice one.

It's never that easy. He is not going to get a job easily. He can't use the phone, he can't drive. So - on a nurse's salary, when we are renting anyway, how will I afford to pay for him to live elsewhere?

He is not deliberately otherwise. Yes, I am defending him. He is the adult version of the child with learning difficulties, and I see it all the more as our youngest displays the same inability to condition, no comprehension of personal space etc. The youngest is being assessed by a psychologist in January and I strongy suspect high functioning Aspergers.

While I work unfriendly hours so I can get the penalty rates, at least the spouse is able to get the kids to and from school, be there for them, get meals sorted out. Without him, I have to change my working hours and earn less. As I have stated, the children love him. The youngest in particular has had him as primary caregiver virtually his whole life. While the situation is not perfect, at least there's a measure of consistency.

I will not change the status quo unless someone in a professional capacity tells me that the current arrangement is having a considerably more detrimental effect on the children than breaking upm the family would have. It's a delicate balance and hard to appreciate without a very thorough assessment all round.

So - I need to do what I can do - which is focus on how I can be strong and maintain realtive peace and be patient.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst said:


> I am not here to "fix" my relationship. I am here to find support and give support to others who choose to keep a loveless and difficult relationship going because it is the less damaging option especially when kids are involved.


I was going to ask you to spell out what you wanted to achieve here, but I see you state it very clearly in the final paragraph of your last post.


In fact, I went back to the beginning and found this:


> sometimes one just needs....
> ... a place to off load. So, I have registered, and now I am here. I don't expect magic solutions, I don't even want easy answers because there aren't any. All I need is to be able to tell my story somewhere fairly anonymous, so I hope I have found the right sort of place.
> 
> I need to start 2009 with a heap load of will-power, strength and vision.


This is a very good start. It show you are clear and consistent. 


However I am sad 

Sad because your ambition seems low. It's as if you are asking, "How can I maintain as civil as possible a household, while not having too much fun".

One of the things that comes across about your situation is that you live in a huge amount of isolation. By coming here, you have opened yourself up to a far bigger world. 

Now I'm not claiming that your marriage can be fixed, but what I am suggesting is that you would be surprised what you could achieve if you aim high, and you have the support of all the good people on here.

So if I've gone a step too far, tell me to knock it off. But if you want to at least have a peep at the possibilities... then only your imagination is the limiting factor.


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## aqua (Dec 26, 2008)

Wow, Wyst. I wrote to MSlady's thread about "beating myself up" and see that you replied to that too. 

I am also the breadwinner and it is getting old. Unlike you, though, my husband is good around the house, cooks, cleans and took good care of the kids when they were younger (he was mr. mom). He still takes good care of them. He is not lazy, but he fails to see what stress the role-reversal has taken on our marriage. There is NO sexual attraction for him whatsoever. I am the bad guy... I reject his sexual advances because it feels unnatural and creepy.

You say "ditch the guilt". Easier said than done. This is as much my fault as his in that I am a conflict avoider and have grown tired of being the "bad guy", the nagger telling him to go out and get a regular job, so i have shut down communicatively. I do not communicate well with him. He gets defensive and I don't even know anymore how to bring up delicate subjects. It's sad that we've come to this. 

Everyone here says "communicate". This may be a basic question, but how? How do you bring up the uncomfortable subjects... ones that you know will hurt your spouse to hear? Ones that you know will end up with a sick stomach and worry for days? I don't want to hurt him, but I don't want to do this anymore. 

I find myself wondering if I still love him. I am indifferent to him mostly. Like you, I just keep up the status quo for the kids and the finances. I have thought about separation/divorce, but if we struggle paying for one household on my income, how two? Would a judge force him to work or make me pay alimony? That would make me madder than I am now! So, for years, I have just sucked it up and done what I need to do and suppressed my feelings. But I resent that he is so dependent on me. It has drained me.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

Aqua, my spouse does do some stuff, too. He cooks (just have to plead for veggies every so often), he does most of the grocery shopping, he tidies the surface areas (just don't look under the sofas etc unless I've had a go at it ), he battles through homework with the youngest, though at times he has difficulty comprehending the instruction himself and has to check that he understood it right when I get home at 10pm. He mows the lawn too.

Sometimes communicating the difficult stuff can be done using the "I feel......when you....." recipe. By focussing on how a situation or behaviour makes you feel it's possible to avoid some of the accusing kind of talk. Sometimes writing a note can be a better way to communicate - gives you a chance to tear up the first three copies and sit on it a while. It also helps to look at what can be changed and what can't be changed, and decide what you can live with and what you can't live with.

Where your spouse is concerned, I gather he has no real reason not to be working except that he is used to the current arrangement. Have you asked him why he doesn't go find a job - in a friendly, non-accusatory sort of way when you are not feeling mad at him? As in, what could be holding him back? The times my spouse has had work, the lead up to his returning has been unbelievably terror-filled for him. There's many a person fo either gender who can testify to huge feelings of inadequacy and fear when returning to work. 

My spouse has sent out his CV since we have been in Australia, but like anywhere, it is extremely difficult for a hearing impaired non-driving person to get work. (When I married him I firmly believed I would get him driving - source of huge fights in the early days).

One of the useful things about thrashing this sort of stuff out here and comparing stories is that sometimes in thinking out aspects for other people one might start to think about one's own situation more clearly.

MarkTwain (a writer on the side, I wonder?) to answer you, I have considered what my ideal outcome would look like. It would involve me meeting a new man who loves me and the boys dearly and is sufficiently OK in himself to let the current spouse be a close family friend, very present to the children and involved, who will understand that out of sheer habit and that measure of affection ( not romantic love) I will still call him "dear".

Aqua, I think the one thing both of us want most is to be able to lie back and be enfolded in someone's arms who takes care of US for a change, instead of being parent all the time.

Now - I am late for work - early shift for once due to this being silly season.

Now that I am at work and have a mo.... MarkTwain - to answer you further, the solution to this situation requires slow and careful consideration and maangement. It also requires a healthy sense of realism. My "best outcome" above might not be realistic. I may never find another person - I have had 3 kids, its mean to the body and I'm not into plastic surgery 

Having my youngest son assessed by the psychologist in Jan is also a significant step for me. I cannot consider my child's difficulties without taking into account the whole family dynamics and what can and can't be fixed. Neither can the psychologist if he is doing his job properly. So, one step at a time, little by little the dimensions and boundaries of the situation will be made clearer and thebest way forward can be worked out.

I keep my sanity by focussing on what I can change, like groups I'm involved with ( my writer's group), now considering if there is a need for a parental support and advocacy group at the primary schoolfor parents of kids with Autism Spectrum Disorders, and working towards my ongoing dream of counselling - adding an Australian diploma to my south african certificates so i can get recognition here.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst-

There is nothing wrong with wishing for the perfect scenario... you may even achieve it. As for your looks, you need not worry. There are 3 types of men: Visual, Audo, and Tactile. And they can be a mixture. So for instance I am audio-tactile. I don't really care what a woman looks like, but she had better have good tone of voice! 

A visual man will only go after a "looker". Even if he is in his 50s he will be looking at women of 35 or younger. But the Audio and Tactile types, they will access you on other criteria. The Audio type will want good and clear conversation, and will listen to your tone of voice. The Tactile types can easily be spotted because they dress scruffy unless they are trying to make a good impression. The Tactile type will look at the depth of your smile, because he is all about feelings. 

However, I would like to ask a few questions about your current relationship, because we have not quite reached the future yet!

What is your current relationship with your husband. Do you still share a bed. When did you last have sex?


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Wyst-
> 
> However, I would like to ask a few questions about your current relationship, because we have not quite reached the future yet!
> 
> What is your current relationship with your husband. Do you still share a bed. When did you last have sex?


We still share a bed. Several months since we last had sex - he is struggling with erectile difficulties these days anyway. My own libido has been less that it used to be. Age has a way of sneaking up on us. For the last year at least I can honestly say any sex has been more a matter dealing with the "itch" than intimacy. I think we had sex about 3 or 4 times through the whole of 2008 - 4 might be an over-estimation!

We live in a small rented three bedroomed house. There isn't room for other arrangements.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Are you interested in having a better relationship with your husband - as good as can be, or do you just want to maintain the status quo?


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Are you interested in having a better relationship with your husband - as good as can be, or do you just want to maintain the status quo?


To be honest, right now I don't know. Other days I could tell you straight that all I am interested in is maintaining whatever causes least harm all round, without sacrificing anything that might resemble my being true to myself.

Why don't I know at the moment? Because I am watching myself go through thought patterns that are probably reminiscent of the abused woman. I am not saying I am abused. Rather, I am astounded at how when things are relatively peaceful, when he is being affectionate (even though I have asked him not to be) a sort of memory failure kicks in. 

I start wanting to relax my guard, to trust. The trouble is, if I do, sooner or later he is going to say something that will tear me apart and destroy the trust again. I also find I start feeling guilty for not doing my utmost to preserve the relationship and feeling like I must be the prize biatch. And yet, I know the pattern.

You know, it would be so much easier if he was deliberately difficult and a bastard. The fact that his intentions and actions are often miles apart, is more due to his being deaf and having his set of limitations. I mean - he was born prematurely and spent hisn first 8 months in an incubator, He had just about every childhood disease in that time (deafness caused by encephalitis), he only learnt to walk when he was 4. The doctors told his parents to institionalise him, but they refused. With that history, if I want to up and leave him in the end it makes me look like the worst and most selfish witch on planet earth!

There is NOTHING straightforward or easy about this. Sometimes I just wish he woul have a convenient heart attack or something and just take the whole difficult decisonmaking away from me.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst-

Your honesty is breathtaking. I think that is the foremost necessity in a challenging situation. What you are probably feeling as an overriding background is the feeling of being stuck. It is my belief that if we bring awareness into out situations sincerely enough, we can reach a pint where we suddenly realise the brick wall was only an illusion.

Would you mind casting your mind back to the beginning?

Tell us about how you first met him, your courting days leading up to marriage, and how you felt about him. You mentioned how his father tried to putt you off.

Please could you give us a potted history from start to finish, that charts the emotional rise, and later the fall of your involvement with this man.


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

You are not his mommy. Seriously. I know you love him, even if not as a husband. It comes across clear as day in your posts. And you have a lot of maternal feelings for this man. He is clearly a good person with many disabilities. He's come very far from what his doctors expected of him as a child and that is truly wonderful for him. But YOU ARE NOT HIS MOMMA. 

You cannot and must not make yourself a martyr. You use the kids as an excuse to remain miserable. You use his disabilities as an excuse to remain miserable. I have two little kids (4 and 2) so I know the turmoil involved in thinking of tearing their family apart. I'm a stay-at-home mom so I know the fears associated with thinking you won't have a partner to help out with all the practical things of everyday life. I really do know.

BUT, just like you were stuck in "heroine" mode when you met him and you probably felt so good that everyone around you saw you as such a wonderful person to get involved with the "disabled, deaf boy", you are still stuck in that place. You said you realize now that you are not as good as you thought you were to put up with all his short-comings. You are right. And that just makes you human like the rest of us. You are a good person and you need to believe that. You don't have to become a sacrificial martyr to prove that to yourself or the world. That means that you DO sooner or later have to take the time to think about what would make you happy. Or else, you will go on with the status quo and reach your deathbed with much regret.

Now back to the kids. I grew up with very unhappy parents with a bad relationship between them (and not even as bad as what's going on in your house). I'm sure I looked fine on the outside, but it messed me up big time. And it messed up my whole understanding of relationships so that now I have marital problems of my own. Married parents aren't better for kids ... happy, well-adjusted parents are better for kids. Sometimes that means together, sometimes divorced. 

Are you seriously deluding yourself into thinking that your kids don't see your misery? I can bet you they do. And it affects them very negatively. You said you wouldn't believe it until a professional told you - well, go see one and find out. You really should. You are making assumptions about what is best for them that might not be right. You might also be right, but you don't really know.

As for your husband, have you talked to a lawyer and figured out what it would actually mean financially if you divorced him. You might be making assumptions there too. Are his parents still alive? Maybe they would help. Just get the actual information instead of deciding out of the blue how things would go and then basing decisions on it.

In another mode, one thing that struck me from your posts is that there's a long history of major dissapointments on his part and I can see why you feel burned. But it also sounds like you are now so burnt that even minor things are coming across to you as major when they are not. My husband's probably got a higher IQ than I do (not by much, but probably a little LOL) - the man still can't buy a nice present. That's men. I give him a wishlist (and sometimes send him the link of exactly where to get it) each Christmas. He always gets me one thing that's a surprise and he picks out all by himself, but if that sucks, it's not big deal b/c I get the other things I want. My point is that you might be having trouble separating what is "normal stupid guy" behavior and "disabled husband" behavior. That must be a constant struggle for you. But the solutions aren't much different either way ... give the man a wishlist. 

If you husband has organization isssues, that's a big deal in terms of keeping a house clean and orderly. As a stay at home mother, I can tell you my house often looks like a tornado. Granted, my kids aren't at school yet, but it's still hard. If you are as miserable as you are, hire a cleaning lady. I know it costs money. I know that. But somewhere, sometime you have to make your sanity a priority over the money. If your whole family's joy and peace of mind were riding on something possibly as simple as a cleaning lady, you'd get it, right? It kind is since the cleaning/ dirty house is one thing you mention multiple time that really distresses you. Your distress about it is very valid because you work hard enough already and, if your life is so chaotic in other ways, I can see how a clean home would really help a lot. GET A CLEANING LADY! Then give your husband other jobs that he'd be better able to handle. OR you can help him with the organization part. Make a list of everything that needs to get done in the house. Then separate it into "daily, weekly, monthly or seasonal". Put checkboxes next to it. Make it manageable and reasonable. Talk it over with him so he feels like a partner in it. Let him know that you're not trying to be condenscending, just you know he has trouble organizing himself and you can help him with that.

I would also suggest that maybe he go to counseling. The fact that he said you will leave him because he's not good enough for you shows you how his self-esteem is through the gutter. No one with that low self-esteem can be a good partner. You are too burnt to feed his ego and that's okay. You shouldn't have to do that right now. But he does need professional help.

Sorry I've gone on so long. I hope none of my words have sounded harsh as I'm really feeeling for you and your situation. I can only imagine how hard it is. If anything has been abrasive, it's been more because of attempts to be direct, rather than any intended negativity on my part. 

I don't think you should lose hope of being happy, that's all. You might find it in your marriage or you might find it elsewhere ... but you MUST find it. It's the best example you can give your kids on how to be good to themselves.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

for MT: Ok - Potted history:

I met H. through my church. I had finished my nursing training and ended up very depressed and burnt out during that time. I was at the end of my first year of working as a nurse post training, and although better after moving out of the public hospital environment, still struggling a bit and planning a switch to computer programming.

Also, I had left school convinced I should be entering a convent. This meant that I did not go out and "play the field". I had a sort of apprehension about sexuality - scared that one thing could lead to another too quickly and I would not be able to stop a man going too far. I had no real grounds for this, other than my mother's warning that a sexual ddrive is s strong thing!

H. and I were attending the same young adults house church group and I saw him at church. He was sweet and funny, and after the whole group pursuaded him to join us for a weekend silent retreat, I asked him to teach me sign language. He is profoundly deaf in one ear and only lost the hearing in his other ear at the age of about 5, thus he speaks very well. He has about 45% hearing in that ear with a hearing aid, none without.

The sign language lessons led to friendship, and the then heart going lippety dip. We spent more and more time together. I pursuaded him to give up smoking, and he hasn't smoked since. But then we started to talk about marriage and I was still found I was hankering after that quiet meditative environment of the convent. I spent time praying it through. the funny thing was after I made a definite decision to try the convent first, suddenly it became a non-issue, and it seemed like marrying was the right thing to do. One thing niggles though. That was the intellectual difference. My IQ falls in the gifted range, his is average ( tested by the same psychologist along the way). the trouble is, as a Christian, I immediately felt guilt considering such a factor. How could I be so arrogant and mean as to reject him on grounds of something like that? And anyhow, I was convinced his parents were totally under-estimating his capabilities. I would help find the job he was meant to be doing where he could be happy. I would teach him to drive. I didn't mind if I was the main breadwinner. His mother tried to warn me that my ideals were misplaced. She wrote to my parents with her misgivings too (they had already moved to Australia at that time) 

I lost my virginity to him, we got rapped over the knuckles by the church for sharing a bed in the priests house that H. was house-sitting next to the chapelry, and told to behave for 3 months be fore we got married, so we did.

We did our best to keep the cost of the wedding down my having a morning tea reception, and then it was off to Cape town for our honeymoon. Wedding night after abstination should be good - but - he said he was too tired! I had my sexy lingerie and all and I had to beg, plead and cajole for us to have a proper wedding night! Funny, even now, writing this nearly 19 years later, it still brings tears to my eyes.

This was his first time in Cape Town, but it was rainy. I wanted to get out and about, do crazy things, walk in the rain, he wanted to stay shut in and watch TV. We did get to do some things, see Cape Point, go up Table Mountain etc, but i discovered another thing. His balance isn't great. I had found myself someone with a fear of heights who couldn't handle mountainside paths and go hiking with me. 

A short while after we returned from our Honeymoon, I discovered I was pregnant (I was 25 and and he was 28 when we married). 

We returned to work (he had a job then) and a new pattern began. I had thought that at the end of a day one came straight home from work. It was what I had grown up with. H didn't. I was left wondering where he was. then i learnt he was popping into the pub for drinks after work. that was OK, except he started coming home later and later. He would be late for supper, then later than that. Then it would be midnight before he came home. If I got upset, it would transpire that he had been "counselling" someone who was suicidal, or helping to stop a potential fight, or waiting with someone til they got fetched. How could I argue with such helpful things? But he wasn't there for me! 

In the realm of affection I had two options: either he would pinch my bottom or do other things that irritated me, or it would be sex. I longed to just be held, sometimes, to experience an adult sort of affection and tenderness from him, but it never happened. I tried to convey what upset me and what I wanted and needed and he would listen and make promises, but the change never came.

I guess that sort of covers the very early years. There's heaps more that follows, but this was supposed to be brief. It gives an idea of where the cracks were showing right at the beginning - but I was trying to be a good Christian wife and I had married him for better or worse.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

MsLady said:


> As for your husband, have you talked to a lawyer and figured out what it would actually mean financially if you divorced him. You might be making assumptions there too. Are his parents still alive? Maybe they would help. Just get the actual information instead of deciding out of the blue how things would go and then basing decisions on it.



Thank you for your comments MsLady. I think Australia must be one of the worst countries in the world for gettinga divorce. It takes at least two year. You HAVE to go to marriage counselling first and you HAVE to have a trial separation first. It's expensive and complicating and very daunting when one is already feeling emotionally messed by trying to make right decisions for all.

His parents are back in South Africa. His father is extremely unwell with advanced Parkinsons that was never treated. His mother is bone thin trying to look after the man. They have no pension and are living off the remainder of the money from the last place they sold, living in a tiny place in a retirement village. This is an added burden for him - not being there to help, hinder, get underfoot, whatever. 

I know pretty much all of what you say is right and true. I think I need about a hundred support things and reassurances in place before I can do anything! At some point H's father will die, and my parents will be paying for him to go back to RSA for the funeral and all. That will give me a chance to practice beign without him.

The other thing that IS in place, is that H is a member of a Third Order Franciscan group which has married and unmarried people. The leader of that group is a great friend and help to H, and he would love to develop a small community house where members of the order can stay together. This is most likely where the H will go in the end, and he is being trained to be a deacon - something very dear to his heart. 

Now, I must fly to work!


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

valid points amd questions M22. Yes, I thank him and praise him for what he does do. Sometimes I will be in the process of opening my mouth to thank him and he will jump down my throat and tell me that I don't care before giving me a chance to say waht I was about to say.

He is fully aware of the intellectual differnce. How can he not be when he has to ask me to interpret year 1 homework instructions that he didn't understand to assist our youngest with his home work? I have a CV full of diplomas and certificates and he has a school leavers certificate - didn't make it to year 12. You can't hide things like that and pretend they don't exists - but he wields it like a guilt weapon while I curse myself for not being capapble of being a fulltime therapist to my spouse!!!


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst-

This is very hard for me, I could not be with someone who was not my intellectual equal. 

This may seem very rude of me, but it seems as if you married a cross between a pet and a nursing project.

Anyway, if you are still reading my words at this point...

You have to work with what you have now. You could improve your relationship with him no end. Or you could fast-track (or slow-track) yourself out of this marriage.

You could make deals with him and gradually get him to improve his behaviour. If you do it with love, it need not count as manipulation.

Also, IQ is a strange thing. I am sure he is much slower than you, but there is probably one area that he shines in. Also, being deaf, and somewhat isolated, he will not have scored as highly in the assessment as someone more connected to society.

You would be surprised at what you could teach him. Instead of trying to tell him a list of things in advance that he has to remember in a specific situation, you could try telling him as you go along.

Maybe I'm jumping the gun...


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi Wyst,

It sounds as if you have built somewhat of a resentment towards him 'not pulling his weight' and I wonder if that has more to do with the two of you leading seemingly separate lives? Do you share any common interests at this point or go on dates? 

It seems you shared a bond through religion when you met and his training to be a deacon sounds as though he's kept that involvement. Perhaps you can look into something that will keep you spiritually connected, something to keep your conversations going?

If it's within your budget, you may also want to consider some extra help (cleaning service, etc.) if it will mean not letting the house gnaw away at you when you get home.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

M22--- I have done a little internet research and have now learnt that one can be "separated' but still under the same roof, and that the counselling thing only applies to marriages of two years and under. Thank you for suggesting I actually look instead of just accepting hearsay.

MT --- I'm still reading (and giggling). In a sense you are right. but wait....you haven't even met the man and from what you are writing it looks like you are falling into his trap!!

The test the Psych used was on of those Interest/Aptitude ones that include a few scattered IQ related questions to give an idea. I had asked her help in sorting out what sort of job Rob would be good at and would enjoy doing. Now, this is a niggly chapter, because that psychologist was counselling me at the time and she broke a few confidentiality rules.

She knew what I had been telling her about my relationship with Rob - the pub addiction (I call it that because it was never really alcoholism though treading on the edges thereof), the reaction that would fly off the end of the scale in proportion to the subject at hand where I would have to reel him back into the middle zone of reasonableness, his black hole feelings of despair at times...
Well, she went through his test and told me that the result was very strange. That, combined with what I had described, led her to conclude that he had Borderline Personality Disorder. I got myself a copy of "Stop Walking on Eggshells", and had to admit he fitted enough of the symptoms described. The psychologist's advice to me back then was to divorce or pray like crazy. I think I embarked on both options at once.

At that time we had our eldest son and the second had just arrived, so that was period of 8-10 years into our marriage. At first I didn't do or say anything straight out to H. but he had a habit of asking me if I wanted a divorce every time I said something he didn't like. Eventually I said yes, and meant it. But, it's not always easy to bring oneself to break all the habits of 8 years and kick a partner out straight away. The rector of our parish got wind of the whole thing and asked me to pay him a visit. He proceeded to tell me that if H was still under the same roof then clearly I didn't have any real intention of carrying this whole thing through. I left his office in a state of despair and confusion that I don't think I have ever experienced before or since. I drove home, and I still remember trying to hang on to the shreds of my sanity by paying attention to the clouds, as there was a lovely sunset. I cried a storm of tears and when I got home I found out jsut how blunt our kitchen knives were when I tried them on my wrist - a matter of easing psych pain by converting to the physical. I know it's stupid, it's not an activity I promote at all - but I understand why people do it.

In the midst of that, the only person around for me was H. He had been pulling out all stops to try and change my mind about divorce. This also ties in with the BPD thing on one level - terror of being abandoned.

From then we tried to repair the state of our marriage. I did my best, but for me something was lost back then that I have never managed to regain. 

It was during those years, 8 - 10, that I had H. leaving the baby with the eldest son ( aged 7) and wandering off around the complex to chat and see to the pool, wth the eldest son having no clue where to find him. It was a big and convoluted complex - over 60 units. It was then that he had paid the eldest not to tell me he was doing this after I had asked him not to for the safety of the babe.

I think what I lost was trust. I have never been able to fully relax with H. If I do, I leave myself open to a verbal battering that hurts sooner or later. If I maintain a certain distance, I am better able to keep my own temper and explain with a degree of rationality why I find his response over the top or inapproprate and get him to listen to me and understand. It means I am behaving like a counsellor 24/7. I cannot be emotionally involved. and no, I don't get it right all the time. Sometimes, - often, - I fail miserably.

Anyhow, over the years, the pattern has been fairly consistent. the alarm bells hit me hard after we arrived in Australia in 2006. We had settled in a parish. At the beginning of 2007 some of the couples were talking about having a joint ceremony to reaffirm their marriage vows and I cringed. I knew I couldn't do it. I knew I could never make the same mistake twice. The thought of reaffirming those vows made me cry and want to run as far as I could.

H. felt my withdrawal. Eventually he took the matter to my mother - on Christmas day 2007, and she confronted me and I told her where I stood. But I didn't know how to tell H. I felt terrible that this was where I was at after dragging him off to a foreign country away from his family and friends. I spent time writing and writing ( I am a journaller) trying to work through what I felt and why and what was best and how to handle it. Eventually he and I had a talk and he handled it well. I expected the previous pattern to emerge, his attempt to rescue the situation and it did. I wanted to test and see if I could still make it better too - any hope at all...He said he would be home for New Year's Eve and be with me.

My journal entry reads like this: "1/1/2008 Never have I entered a year with such dread and forboding as I have entered this one. At 11.30pm last night I would gladly have stopped the clock.
H. did not come home til 2am, this after he said he would be home to see the New Year in. He tried to make excuses, saying he tried to get away. Tried? No - he made a choice over and over, the same one he always makes with a few rare exceptions. I need to start processing layerws and layers of rage and grief. I have pent up so much protecting and excusing H."

The choice he made over and over that I was referring to, was that his friends always came first. Pub friends - people he barely knew at times. I am not a pub goer at all - detest that environment, friends who would have no where to stay and would live with us months at a time, often inconsistent in or unable to pay towards the roof and food, friends like the one who put a fist in my face - yes, H. persuaded me not to lay charges, and wanted me to forgive him and let him continue staying on our property!

MT - he shines in a couple of areas. One is his ability to be gregarious and liked. He is a social chameleon. When he talks about a friend he likes and admires, he takes on that person's tone of voice, turn of phrase and mannerisms, even when he hasn't seen them in a long time. We both know that this is what salesmen do best! Pity the H. couldn't drive as he would have made a brilliant salesman. Most people that he socialises with overlook his space-invading tendencies and his not knowing when to stop talking, I think out of kindness due to his deafness. He lipreads extremely well, and relies pretty heavily on the little hearing he does have.

He also has a phenomenal ability to keep track fo clergy in a diocese. He always knows which minister is at which parish where they were last and where they might be going next. And then, his sporting memory is phenomenal. It covers boxing, rugby, soccer and cricket.

What about now though?

He has stopped going to the pub all the time, pretty much since I got him Foxtel for his birthday in August. The household is relatively peaceful on the whole. The reality remains that even with improvements in his behaviour and mine - don't forget mine - I am far from perfect....I still cannot face the idea of ever repeating my marriage vows to him. I can be freinds with him and I am fond of him, but marry him again? Never!

So the only good option I can see is a slow amicable separation done as carefully and gently as possible. 

Swedish - thank you for your comments. Some of what I have written thus far answers you too. Without the church, we are out of common interests. My departure from christainity has been a long slow thing with much internal wrestling. It invovled many things, like discussions with a friend who had converted from Christianity to Judaism, observing how other religions - even Taoism - report the same sorts of ecstatic manifestations and healing that Christianity swears blindy is only it's own, and a realisiation that I cannot in one breath claim that the bible is God's Word and then rely on all sorts of mental gymnastics to twist those words to suite what my conscience tells me regarding full acceptance and non-judgement of the GLBT folk. Something has to give. I am also fascinated by things like the power of belief and superstition and the placebo effect, so all in all I now count myself as an agnostic who trusts that if there is a God that God accepts us as we are.

I have found it interesting to note that I have reached a point where I am less hung up about who is doing what, and am more concerned about getting what needs to be done, done. I am now able to scrub out the shower without ending up in a self-righteous rage about it. I have started sorting out the house and no longer feel it's connected to the unequal divison of duties thing. This is a relatively recent development, and gives me clues to the whole process I am going through - it takes time. Taking it slowly, not rushing decisons definitely has benefits. I have had a huge amount to process over the last year.

Dreams is another thing. At first dealing with the situation meant dream after dream of trying to save fish from a broken fishtank that was losing it's water. There was one dream where the fishtank finally shattered irrevocably. After times of difficult altercations with H, dreams of beign overwhelmed by a tidal wave, yet somehow surviving. With regard to leaving the church after so many years of strong involvment, many dreams of grief - crying bitterly over being outside that community. All these dreams seem to be lessening now. Instead night after night I am wrestling with repetitive dreams that involve looking for solutions to a problem with precious little clear definition. My subconscious is working through things bit by bit with great diligence it seems.

Thank you all for you continued questioning which helps me to sort out my thinking.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst said:


> MT --- I'm still reading (and giggling). In a sense you are right. but wait....you haven't even met the man and from what you are writing it looks like you are falling into his trap!!


I'm not sure I follow you! I was merely trying to find some good points, and I also have some familiarity with IQ tests, having been tested when I was 7. It's hard to communicate by typing, so forgive me if I was unclear.

From what I get, you find him repulsive on one level or another. If that is the case, there would seem little chance of a reconciliation on a marital level. Even if you made yourself love him, he would see the loathing in your eyes. People who imitate others and can do other peoples accents do it by empathy. I imagine he knows exactly how you feel, but lacks the intellect to follow your thoughts.

I'm not surprised you wanted to flee the intellectual straight jacket of your original religion. My wife is into Zen, which has rubbed of on me  

I lost all my beliefs one day, and very little is left of anything. I described that in this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-spirituality/2139-i-m-spiritual-boulder-road.html posts # 9 & 11.

It's wonderful that you are writing here, you will get a new perspective, not just from the advice, but by being cross questioned by everybody.

But whatever you do, I hope you don't settle for mediocrity. Don't let the churchy people tell you what to do. It's your life, and you must take responsibility and live it. Letting people run their short sighted guilt trips on you is a way of copping out.

In my own life I am trying to expand my awareness so that I can see as many possibilities as possible.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> I'm not sure I follow you! I was merely trying to find some good points,


What I mean is, I have seen him affect person after person with the belief that he can be and do so much more than what is currently apparent. We can all "teach" him, "improve" him, "condition" him, bargain for change...Except it doesn't happen that way. I am watching Br L. take over with this mission of training him. I said deacon - the real intention is priest. He will be able to do it to a point, but will be limited. His first assignment involved listing scriptures from the New Testament that could be applied to the Sacraments. He panicked. He thought he had to write an essay, not list, needed me to find the info, verified it with other people, got someone else to find him a website etc, etc. I have given up trying to change him. I can't.



> From what I get, you find him repulsive on one level or another. If that is the case, there would seem little chance of a reconciliation on a marital level. Even if you made yourself love him, he would see the loathing in your eyes. People who imitate others and can do other peoples accents do it by empathy. I imagine he knows exactly how you feel, but lacks the intellect to follow your thoughts.


"loathing" and "repulsion" are words way too strong. How can you "make" yourself love someone and loathe them at the same time? That is something a bit more than an oxymoron. I keep him at arm's length. I still have a fondness for him - but not the sort that would make me want to marry him again.

As for imitation and empathy, empathy is a strange animal. It's one thing to immitate the person in their presence and to a limtied and subtle extent. It's another when I watch my H "become" the rector we had when we married whom he admired greatly, even now - in turn of phrase, gesticulation and posture, even facial expression and angle of head! When he is with Br L., he dresses like Br L. When he is with his deaf friend G (who is an alcoholic) he dresses like G.




> I'm not surprised you wanted to flee the intellectual straight jacket of your original religion. My wife is into Zen, which has rubbed of on me


hehe - I use Zen for opening tight bottles! - focussed intention etc...
Sometimes looking back, I am angry at how my faith constrained me in taking steps to end this marriage long ago - but then, better the kids have their dad here too. I am still trying to untangle my values from the "rules"!



> It's wonderful that you are writing here, you will get a new perspective, not just from the advice, but by being cross questioned by everybody.


you commented on my honesty - this is why being honest is so important - at least with myself - even if I don't write absolutely everything I think or realise.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Wyst said:


> "loathing" and "repulsion" are words way too strong.


I wonder if that is the truth. What if your guilt is so strong that it is masking your real feelings. Remove the guilt about having to be a good person, and then what do you have? You can't deal with what is going on until you fully see it. (If none of this rings true, please ignore it).



Wyst said:


> How can you "make" yourself love someone and loathe them at the same time? That is something a bit more than an oxymoron.


You might be right, but in many many threads on this site, especially in the divorce and separation sections, that is exactly what people are attempting.

I could not cope with your situation. I have no idea what you should do, I am only trying to help you expose the reality behind the numbness.


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## Wyst (Dec 27, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> I wonder if that is the truth. What if your guilt is so strong that it is masking your real feelings. Remove the guilt about having to be a good person, and then what do you have? You can't deal with what is going on until you fully see it. (If none of this rings true, please ignore it).


Bear in mind that I have already been processing this for over a year, both consciously and subconsciously. That means dealing with bouts of rage and grief, coping with frustration, plenty of soul searching. I have had to look at what I can live with in terms of how I express my values, or lack thereof, and what I can't live with.
I get very frustrated wtih the man at times. I get tired of endlessly explaining little things (that he doesn't know how to do) and rehashing things like you need to tidy up "with" small children in a "let's do it together" fashion, not just yell at them, and if I feel overwhelmed by the state of their room, then trust me, it's more than a 7 year old can sort out and needs adult intervention - which means mine. I get tired of telling him over and over that if he doesn't want mowing the lawn to be a hellish task, he needs to do it regularly instead of waiting til the yard is reverting to bush! The repetition is draining, then I end up with the wrong tone of voice and he bites my head off, telling me how he's not good enough. These are the little things. It has been said elswewhere on other threads that the little things become the big things, and they do. They wear down as surely as the ocean wears the shoreline.

As for the moldy clothes that drove me hear in the first place, it's not the first time this has happened. My mother sent him detailed instruction on how to remove mold. It included soaking the clothes in Nappisan for a good few hours. The instructions were written in concise, simple sentences and numbered ( Mother knows the spouse!) H put the Nappisan in the washingmachine instead of soaking the items and wondered why nothing changed!

Gah! This drives me to the central value conflict. Ok - I will take ownership. I want to yell at him, "Moron! Retard! You are right! You aren't good enough for me!" - that is my emotional response. My rational self squashes that very, very quickly, because I have never, ever wanted to respond like that to anybody fo a different ability. And here's the rub: I know that I have always known that I do not have the capacity to work with people of lower intellectual ability. I have spent time among institutionalised folk and while there is much I can appreciate about them, I could not do it long term. H's limitations are in particular areas and not glaringly apparent until one has to live with him. Basically, I think I am chronically and completely burnt-out.

So, I am left with working out step by step how to handle my limitations and limit the damage my limitations can cause. I could have a very, happy and pleasant relationship with my husband if he was a friend, not here all the time, if I could have boundaries to our relationship.




> You might be right, but in many many threads on this site, especially in the divorce and separation sections, that is exactly what people are attempting.


Where people are attempting that, I think they are still wrapped up in guilt to the extent that they can't see beyond that and allow rationality to govern the matter. At least I can acknowledge the emotions and declare them at odds with my reason, and know that time will even the score.



> I could not cope with your situation. I have no idea what you should do, I am only trying to help you expose the reality behind the numbness.


MT - I said up front there are no easy answers. That doesn't mean there are no answers. It means that I seek out support for me where I can, places where I can communicate openly about my frustrations. It means I journal and pay attention to dreams that give hints to what my subconscious I processing. It means I do the things I love, online gaming, writing, (must get a kids' story published!!) studying what interests me, learning to write therapeutic stories, going for walks, reading New Scientist...
It means I wait for the information I need, work towards getting a job with better pay and parent-friendly/child-friendly working hours - essential if I am to be a single parent in the end - even if it takes a year or more. 

You know what? I have reason to be grateful that I CAN take my time over these things and don't have to flee to a shelter for battered women! The situation could be so very much worse than it is!


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