# Self-Improvement Not Helping Sex Life



## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

First of all, I hope this is the right place. It’s sex related, but not just about sex.

I’ve been lurking here for a while, and have been quietly applying the advice given to my M. I’ve rejoined a gym, and have made good progress. I’m now over a stone lighter, but much more muscular. I’ve re-activated my own hobbies / interests, which had been on hold for years, I’m dressing better (within the limits of my budget), grooming carefully etc.

I’m being attentive to my wife. I’ve always done plenty around the home (inside and out), worked hard, been accountable and whatnot. I’ve upped my efforts in and outside the home, and the little bits of extra money help in that I can take her out on dates more often. This isn’t as easy as I’d like, for logisitical reasons. Neither of us have family near by and paid baby sitters are at a premium round here. I compliment her (a lot), buy her presents, ask her what she wants, and wants to do, and do it (I’m talking outside the bedroom here!), try lots of flirting and non-sexual touching (see below).

I’ve been more sexually assertive, made it clear what I want, tried things like the ten second kiss etc.

None of it has done any good. The quality, quantity and variety of sex has not changed. I’m talking about eight months of effort here, and no improvement at all.

I’ll give some Examples.

I’ve always been stronger than my W. Now, the margin is much greater (since I went back to the gym). She is dismissive of this giving “Did you lift a little more this time, ha ha?” sort of comments. This isn’t a sh*t test, just rude, as far as I can tell.

I changed my haircut a couple of times. Each time it was “too brutal”, “too floppy” “too rough” or something. I recognised this as a sh*t test, and simply decided to do shrug and what I wanted. 
She queries if I dress nicely, as if I shouldn’t. I’ve carried on anyway.

She is outrightly rude about my hobbies.

Sexually, she is as bad / worse. Long kisses / public affection are “creepy”, me telling her what I want sexually is “uncouth”, assertiveness is “scary and aggressive”, and it’s all accompanied by a constant background noise of “You can’t make me do anything, I decide what I do, when I do it and how…”

She is uncomfortable with and dismissive of flirting and non-sexual touching. If I ever try to touch her out of the blue, she yelps and tells me she doesn’t like “being crept up on”. I’m over six feet tall and weigh 13 stone (180lb-odd). I can’t creep up on anyone!

Last year, I built her a patio. I’m no builder, but I made a very good job of it and save us thousands of pounds over getting someone in. This effort, success, competence etc got no sexual response. I didn’t build it to get sex, I should say. I built it because we both wanted a patio (her especially). However, when I finally finished, I though some sort of sexual thanks might be in the air. I got “If you think I’m doing anything weird for you , forget it”. “Weird” would be, for instance, a BJ.

Recently we had a row. I was telling her how the lack of sex was getting stupid (once or twice a month, missionary or her on top only, no oral on me or her, her not touching me), and she heard a song on the radio in the next room. She walked out to listen to it.

I was furious, and told her so. She replied that she had sung that to her granddad when she was little, and that was important. I asked her how I am supposed to feel as the second most important man in the marriage, after her grandfather, and she told me I would never be better than third best, after him and her father!

I don’t want to divorce and become a Saturday afternoon McDonalds dad, but I can’t see a way through this.

Sorry for the thesis, but any suggestions welcome.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

The obvious is MC. You seem to be trying to please her but you have no idea what she wants. Have you ever asked her. Whatever you do without will never please her. And expecting sex for it well its no go.
May one ask how long you have been together and how long she has been like this and does she work. She doesnt want to be told what to do (sounds like my wife who says the only thing she 'has' to do is die). Forcing sex just wont work. You write you have kids so I suppose divorce is not an option. 
Try to get your W to come on here. I also got no thanks for many years although since I have come on here things have improved. I bought her magazine and said if no thanks I wont give it to you. Since then I make sure I get thanks for every little thing and also give it.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

accept said:


> The obvious is MC.


I suppose so


> You seem to be trying to please her but you have no idea what she wants. Have you ever asked her. Whatever you do without will never please her. And expecting sex for it well its no go.


No, I'm not trying to please her. I do "nice things" for her because she does like them. I've improved myself for me, and I'm happy with the result, but the side-effect of it making her desire me more sexually hasn't happened at all. I know this wasn't guaranteed, but if anything, me improving myself has made things worse.



> May one ask how long you have been together and how long she has been like this and does she work.


Together 15, married 12, two daughters 10 and 7, like it for four or five years. She works part time as a supply teacher.


> She doesnt want to be told what to do (sounds like my wife who says the only thing she 'has' to do is die). Forcing sex just wont work.


I know. The idea isn't to "force" sex, but to make yourself more desirable, so you don't have to force it. And it simply isn't working at all.


> You write you have kids so I suppose divorce is not an option.
> Try to get your W to come on here. I also got no thanks for many years although since I have come on here things have improved. I bought her magazine and said if no thanks I wont give it to you. Since then I make sure I get thanks for every little thing and also give it.


I get "thank you" from her. She's unfailingly polite like that. But I don't want polite, I want sexy!


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

If its upto five years ago you must have some idea what started it. 
I still think you should ask her.
So she is 'polite' about it but nothing more. 
You must have asked her by now what you can do to 'turn' her on. 
My own W does feel guilty about refusing but comes up with excuses of what I did even many years ago. 
Maybe as you put it your W thinks you only do things for yourself foremost and not for her.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

accept said:


> If its upto five years ago you must have some idea what started it.


TBH, no. There wasn't a big blow up or significant change in circumstances (any change in circumstances, in fact) or anything at all. It just sort of dwindled.


> I still think you should ask her.


I have. She claims to not know, and to not be interested.


> So she is 'polite' about it but nothing more.
> You must have asked her by now what you can do to 'turn' her on.


If I had a pound for every time, I could hire a counsellor on permanent retainer. Slight exaggeration, but yes, over and over. She claims to not know, to not be bothered, to not "need it", to think the whole concept isn't "ladylike" or to simply roll her eyes and say that I'm the man and I should just know. She doesn't like oral, fingers inside, fingers in her pubic hair, massages, light stroking, heavy stroking, licking, body sliding. Anything "rough" is considered to be abusive (we have discussed it, to her disgust).



> My own W does feel guilty about refusing but comes up with excuses of what I did even many years ago.
> Maybe as you put it your W thinks you only do things for yourself foremost and not for her.


I've done the improvements for me. I "got" that bit of the advice. I wasn't expecting (as in seeing it as a quid pro quo) her to do the same, but the book DO say that it can happen, so I was hopeful.

If anything, it's made her resentful.

The next step according to all the resources is I either accept this is my life, or I threaten divorce unless she improves.

Like I said, I don't fancy being McDonalds dad, so I'm wary of threatening divorce. 

In my working life, I've seen people who are threatened with the sack if they don't improve. They improve, but they never gain any enthusiasm for what they have to do, and often just add more resentment.

I can't see the D-word producing enthusiasm for sex in my W.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You can't "threaten" divorce. Well, you can, but you'd be foolish to. You determine your boundaries, and consequences if those boundaries aren't maintained. And then enforce them.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

[* She claims to not know, to not be bothered, to not "need it", to think the whole concept isn't "ladylike" or to simply roll her eyes and say that I'm the man and I should just know. She doesn't like oral, fingers inside, fingers in her pubic hair, massages, light stroking, heavy stroking, licking, body sliding. Anything "rough" is considered to be abusive (we have discussed it, to her disgust).*
Was she always a 'lady' or has only suddenly become one.
From what you write it sounds like that she thinks you know what to do.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi chimp ~

Well, congratulations on all of the self improvement. That is awesome! 

But, it does take two to tango, and it sounds like your wife has some issues of her own that she needs to tackle. But, she's gotta want to tackle them - whether they are inhibitions/repressions, self-esteem issues, physical issues such as lack of energy, or whatever.

She doesn't seem like she is even receptive to the idea of sexual intimacy within marriage being important to maintain the marriage in the long-term. One option you have, short of invoking the D word, is to consider doing something of the following:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

And, you may also want to consider going to MC - and if she won't go with you, then go on your own to IC so you can put everything in perspective. One issue that does come across in your post is that you say you are not doing all of these things for sex, but at the end of the day, it seems like maybe it is - something like a covert contract that you have in the back of your mind perhaps.

A lop-sided marriage devoid of intimacy and touch is not a good model in which to raise and nurture children - not unless you want them to grow up to emulate the model that your marriage is-because that is what they are learning everyday.

Best wishes.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> You can't "threaten" divorce. Well, you can, but you'd be foolish to. You determine your boundaries, and consequences if those boundaries aren't maintained. And then enforce them.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've read, understood and implemented this all over (fitness, hobbies, haircuts etc) I can say that I'm having my hair cut this way, like it or not. Set a boundary, enforce it.

If I set a boundary that I want good, regular, enthusiastic sex with a bit of variety, how do I enforce it? It isn't in my gift to enforce this. I can decide I'll take part in by hobbies with her agreement or without, but I can't have sex with her without her consent. I've read a lot of stuff about this, but all the books seem to be very vague on this one specific issue (except Athol Kaye who says divorce and walk).


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

If its truly a boundary for you, then that's what it comes down to. In the same way a betrayed spouse says "I refuse to live in an open marriage; if you contact her again I'll leave", or an alcohic is told "you can chose to drink, but I chose not to live with an alcoholic". In your case, it could be something like "A healthy sexual relationship is a major part of what separates a good friendship from a marriage. Please work with me to fix this". And if she refuses, then you enforce by leaving.

The only person who you can truly control is yourself. If a situation is unacceptable to you, at some point you have to remove yourself from it.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

accept said:


> If its upto five years ago you must have some idea what started it.
> I still think you should ask her.
> So she is 'polite' about it but nothing more.
> You must have asked her by now what you can do to 'turn' her on.
> ...


She has become more concerned with the "being a lady" thing over the years. Could be with having daughters, but she just says it's always how she was. She was more willing to have sex before though, and being a "lady" wasn't an object.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi chimp ~
> 
> Well, congratulations on all of the self improvement. That is awesome!
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I want to echo what Enchantment said above, as well as suggest you look into the Emotional Needs Questionairre to assess what you need and what your wife needs. You are doing a lot of good things, but it is possible that you may be working hard on the wrong things. Use this to make sure you are aiming at the right target.

If all of that still does not work, consider the possibility that nothing will change. If that is the case, is that acceptable? If not, what will you do?


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi chimp ~
> 
> Well, congratulations on all of the self improvement. That is awesome!


Thank you


> But, it does take two to tango, and it sounds like your wife has some issues of her own that she needs to tackle. But, she's gotta want to tackle them - whether they are inhibitions/repressions, self-esteem issues, physical issues such as lack of energy, or whatever.


She says she has no issues, just that the things I want to do aren't ladylike and therefore she isn't going to do them. The problem is with ME wanting quantity, quality and variety in our sex life, according to her. She certainly isn't willing to change.



> She doesn't seem like she is even receptive to the idea of sexual intimacy within marriage being important to maintain the marriage in the long-term. One option you have, short of invoking the D word, is to consider doing something of the following:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


I've read this - it just seems like a very long-winded roundabout route to get not to where I am now, but to a position where you cannot go back even if you want to. It just seems a way of provoking a fight, and I know easier ways.[/quote]

And, you may also want to consider going to MC - and if she won't go with you, then go on your own to IC so you can put everything in perspective. One issue that does come across in your post is that you say you are not doing all of these things for sex, but at the end of the day, it seems like maybe it is - something like a covert contract that you have in the back of your mind perhaps.[/quote]
No, I'm not. I AM doing them for me, but all the books say that there is often a payoff in sex too. I see it a bit like if you get fit, as well as living longer you are told you'll feel better too. Some people don't ever feel better from exercise, but are they wrong to hope they would?

I can see no way she will come to MC, except if she knows that the counsellor will tell me to give up wanting sex. Is that likely? I have no experience of MC at all. I'll see my doctor and see if I can get referred to a counsellor for me.



> A lop-sided marriage devoid of intimacy and touch is not a good model in which to raise and nurture children - not unless you want them to grow up to emulate the model that your marriage is-because that is what they are learning everyday.
> 
> Best wishes.


Her concern is that they are "proper young ladies". Anything else is a side issue.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> If its truly a boundary for you, then that's what it comes down to. In the same way a betrayed spouse says "I refuse to live in an open marriage; if you contact her again I'll leave", or an alcohic is told "you can chose to drink, but I chose not to live with an alcoholic". In your case, it could be something like "A healthy sexual relationship is a major part of what separates a good friendship from a marriage. Please work with me to fix this". And if she refuses, then you enforce by leaving.
> 
> The only person who you can truly control is yourself. If a situation is unacceptable to you, at some point you have to remove yourself from it.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how this differs from threatening / demanding a divorce?:scratchhead:


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I want to echo what Enchantment said above, as well as suggest you look into the Emotional Needs Questionairre to assess what you need and what your wife needs. You are doing a lot of good things, but it is possible that you may be working hard on the wrong things. Use this to make sure you are aiming at the right target.
> 
> If all of that still does not work, consider the possibility that nothing will change. If that is the case, is that acceptable? If not, what will you do?


Can I find this questionnaire on the web somewhere? If not, where is it? More importantly, how do I get her to do it? Doing this sort of "thing" would imply she has to alter anything, and she doesn't believe she should (or needs to).


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> Can I find this questionnaire on the web somewhere? If not, where is it? More importantly, how do I get her to do it? Doing this sort of "thing" would imply she has to alter anything, and she doesn't believe she should (or needs to).


I believe you can find it on the Marriage Builder's website. Type in His Needs Her Needs and it should pop up.

It won't mean she has to change anything, but rather it is about you making sure that the things you are doing are what she values. For example, my wife is an Acts of Service type. She just loves when I do things for her, particularly fixing things around the house. She is not a Quality Time person, so if I hang around to chat with her, she does not mind but it does not do much for her. Assuming we have had some time together as of late, if I have an hour to kill, I look for stuff to do around the house, rather than sit down to talk with her, because that is what she values.

The questionnaire is about you focusing your efforts in the right spots.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> Can I find this questionnaire on the web somewhere? If not, where is it? More importantly, how do I get her to do it? Doing this sort of "thing" would imply she has to alter anything, and she doesn't believe she should (or needs to).


The 'emotional needs' questionnaire - and another 'love busters' questionnaire that helps you define things that turn each other off - is part of marriagebuilders.com. Here's a link to the emotional needs one - you might want to spend some time over there reading through some of their materials and consider reading the "His Needs, Her Needs" book if you haven't already.

Emotional Needs Questionnaire


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

The Chimp said:


> I'm not sure how this differs from threatening / demanding a divorce?:scratchhead:


The difference is that you're giving her a choice. She's perfectly entitled to live a sexually dead life, if that's what she wants to do. But she'll do it without you. By acknowledging that she has free choice in the matter, it takes away from you trying to "control" her behavior with your "threats". She has to take equal responsibility for the relationship and where it ends up.

It is a subtle difference, I agree. But it's important for her to realize that she isn't just being steamrolled with no choice in the matter. She DOES have a choice. But as with any choice, there's consequences.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> She has become more concerned with the "being a lady" thing over the years. Could be with having daughters, but she just says it's always how she was. She was more willing to have sex before though, and being a "lady" wasn't an object.


Was she happy with her life before? Do you think she is unhappy with her life as it is now? Sometimes, some women let themselves 'lose' themselves - by burying themselves in children and maintaining the household or working or doing 100 things at once.

Do you think she is resentful of you for anything?

It's a tough situation, for sure. But she needs a strong person at the helm - *YOU*  - to help steer and guide the family. And there may definitely be some stormy seas to navigate ahead. She may have to change in ways going forward that she never ever thought about - but, hey, look at the tagline up at the top of this forum. It says 'Because the only Constant in life is change.' She's needing to learn that lesson, I think.

Best wishes.


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## Schill (Dec 7, 2011)

You're obviously doing all of these things to get your wife's attention, and make her want to or even feel obligated to have sex with you. They're all covert contracts. Checkout the book, No More Mr. Nice Guy, and the online forum.

You need to stop worrying about what your wife thinks of you, and think about things YOU do to make you happy. I know you're going through all of the personal improvement things.. but it sounds more like you're doing all of this for your wife. When she says something that doesn't quite sit well, you need to reply positively and make sure she knows you don't give a rats ass if she's trying to crush your spirits. For instance, She says " Haha, did you lift a little more? " You respond with something like .. "Yes, I did lift an extra 10kilo's today, new personal best! and I feel great"

Start going out with the boys at least once a week, be the leader your wife is craving. Your wife is telling you, her father and grandfather are real men, and you are not. That is why they're ahead of you on the "depth chart."

There is a good possibility your wife had an affair with this 5 years ago that she won't talk about. If it wasn't a big deal, she would talk to you about it. Saying I don't remember, is an easy cop out so she doesn't have to lie to you.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I believe you can find it on the Marriage Builder's website. Type in His Needs Her Needs and it should pop up.
> 
> It won't mean she has to change anything, but rather it is about you making sure that the things you are doing are what she values. For example, my wife is an Acts of Service type. She just loves when I do things for her, particularly fixing things around the house. She is not a Quality Time person, so if I hang around to chat with her, she does not mind but it does not do much for her. Assuming we have had some time together as of late, if I have an hour to kill, I look for stuff to do around the house, rather than sit down to talk with her, because that is what she values.
> 
> The questionnaire is about you focusing your efforts in the right spots.


So basically, I give her something she fills in to tell me what I'm doing wrong (in her view). The only way this going to fly is if I do ONLY that. If I fill one in and ask her to look at it, she WILL interpret that as a personal attack on her, and a further measure of how I just don't "get it".

I see the idea, but not the result, sorry.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> The difference is that you're giving her a choice. She's perfectly entitled to live a sexually dead life, if that's what she wants to do. But she'll do it without you. By acknowledging that she has free choice in the matter, it takes away from you trying to "control" her behavior with your "threats". She has to take equal responsibility for the relationship and where it ends up.
> 
> It is a subtle difference, I agree. But it's important for her to realize that she isn't just being steamrolled with no choice in the matter. She DOES have a choice. But as with any choice, there's consequences.
> 
> ...


I agree, it's subtle. Too subtle for me, I'm afraid. On the one had I say "I'm leaving because the sex is bad" on the other I say "You can keep having a lousy sex life, but not with me because I'm leaving".

:scratchhead: Sorry. I'm not a deep thinker


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Was she happy with her life before? Do you think she is unhappy with her life as it is now? Sometimes, some women let themselves 'lose' themselves - by burying themselves in children and maintaining the household or working or doing 100 things at once.


I don't know - if she is, it isn't over a lack of material things or love, effort, time and attention from me, and she is making no effort to tell me what it is.



> Do you think she is resentful of you for anything?


If she is, she's making no effort to tell me what.



> It's a tough situation, for sure. But she needs a strong person at the helm - *YOU*  - to help steer and guide the family. And there may definitely be some stormy seas to navigate ahead. She may have to change in ways going forward that she never ever thought about - but, hey, look at the tagline up at the top of this forum. It says 'Because the only Constant in life is change.' She's needing to learn that lesson, I think.
> 
> Best wishes.


But I don't want to steer and guide someone who just wants to fight me all the way! On the ship, I'd be saying, "Right, we will sail here" and she would be saying "OK, but don't expect me to lift the anchor or raise the sails".


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Schill said:


> You're obviously doing all of these things to get your wife's attention, and make her want to or even feel obligated to have sex with you.


I'm getting tired of saying I'm not. It's more a case of "Since this (the man up plan) has obviously failed, what next"?



> You need to stop worrying about what your wife thinks of you, and think about things YOU do to make you happy. I know you're going through all of the personal improvement things.. but it sounds more like you're doing all of this for your wife. When she says something that doesn't quite sit well, you need to reply positively and make sure she knows you don't give a rats ass if she's trying to crush your spirits. For instance, She says " Haha, did you lift a little more? " You respond with something like .. "Yes, I did lift an extra 10kilo's today, new personal best! and I feel great"


I do, then she sneers, I shrug and walk away.



> Start going out with the boys at least once a week, be the leader your wife is craving. Your wife is telling you, her father and grandfather are real men, and you are not. That is why they're ahead of you on the "depth chart."


Her grandfather was an idle little bastard who retired at fifty and never did a stroke of work before that anyway. He was, according to her relatives, a shirker and a coward. Her father is a hypochondriac who's had everything except Nurgle's Rot and the Millenium Bug. THe difference is that they adored her and treated her like a precious little princess. 

If those two are "real men", I don't want to be one.



> There is a good possibility your wife had an affair with this 5 years ago that she won't talk about. If it wasn't a big deal, she would talk to you about it. Saying I don't remember, is an easy cop out so she doesn't have to lie to you.


If she did is was very short and conducted mostly in our house. And whilst I might not be the brightest lamp on the street, I noticed nothing whatsoever.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Chimp, I feel for you. I can relate very much to what you're going through. There's one thing that I am not sure of from your posts: Are you in charge in your relationship? It sounds like you try to be, but she hobbles you. In fact, everything you say about her smacks of this. She verbally cuts you down and she withholds sex and affection. That sounds like someone who is insecure and trying to have control of the relationship. And if her father and grandfather were weak men, then she has developed a subconscious idea that the strong man in her life should be weak. Hence, her trying to make you weak and respecting you less for your gains in strength. Your marriage will not turn around until you are the master of your castle. 

I've been thinking about this a bit lately, the difficulty in making a wife truly want to turn around in this area. As you said, if you threaten divorce (whether you mean it or not), it is likely to create long-term resentment. And once divorce is off the table in the future she will immediately start to revert. If it's never off the table, she'll undermine you in other ways. She already hates the idea of you being in charge, so dropping a nuke on the relationship to get her capitulation will backfire for sure. 

On the other hand, right now life sucks. I see a twin course of action that will hopefully lead to positive results. Firstly, be in charge. If you ask her to do something and she acts like a petulant child, give her whatever consequences you can. Legally, there is only so much you can do, but you can just refuse to be drawn into her games, as much as possible. Keep in mind that any time she upsets you or causes unwanted changes in your behaviour, she is controlling the relationship and this will reinforce her negative behaviours. Keep believing that you are in charge. But don't argue!

The other thing I was thinking is that you have to keep showing her love. I know, it seems counter-productive. But I think that you just have to keep at it. Think of it as a peaceful revolution. Lol! A lot of people think that love is beta, but it's not. Think of Jesus, Gandhi, etc. There is a point of rebellious love that is extremely alpha. This is a "love til it hurts" kinda thing. Very, very tough, because you willingly open yourself to more potential pain. However, if you don't want to divorce, there is no other option that I know of. 

You can also get outside opinions that she may listen to, but that is hit-and-miss, because someone may side with her or just give you flat-out terrible advice. However, it's a great thing to do if you know in advance that you'll get someone who can influence her for good. This may even include forming friendships with couples who have marriages like you want to have. Role-models are a powerful influence in people. It also means that any relationships she has that exacerbate her negative behaviours should be removed, if possible. For instance, GNOs are horribly reinforcing for this type of thing.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

The Chimp said:


> I agree, it's subtle. Too subtle for me, I'm afraid. On the one had I say "I'm leaving because the sex is bad" on the other I say "You can keep having a lousy sex life, but not with me because I'm leaving".
> 
> :scratchhead: Sorry. I'm not a deep thinker


The end result may be the same in any case... At the end of my marriage, I didn't give my wife an ultimatum or boundaries/consequences. I decided that things weren't going to change in a positive manner, so I told her I wanted a separation. No list of things for her to change or I'm gone. We had already talked about the issues, she acknowledged they were problems, but she wasn't willing to work on them. So I chose to take control of my own happiness.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> So basically, I give her something she fills in to tell me what I'm doing wrong (in her view). The only way this going to fly is if I do ONLY that. If I fill one in and ask her to look at it, she WILL interpret that as a personal attack on her, and a further measure of how I just don't "get it".
> 
> I see the idea, but not the result, sorry.


The point is not to see what you are doing wrong, but to see what she values. If she does not value gifts, for example, getting her roses and a box of chocolates as a surprise is a waste.

You don't have to fill yours out (if you don't want). The point is to get you information so that you can direct your hard work productively. Frame it as questions so that you can better understand her.

I will say, if she is not interested in an exercise to improve your marriage (and in fact considers it an attack), you some serious marriage issues and probably have your answer as to whether any further efforts by you will be well received.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I will come back on this. First of all I must say that I believe that women should be what you term 'ladylike' and men should respect that. I know its not the modern trend, that anything like the things you mention goes. I am old fashioned.
I gather this is the main problem you have. Your wife is willing to do sex the 'ladylike' way and you want more. You dont seem to be too sure of how it was in the past. 
I see no way out. MC wont help. 
For your sake in the present circumstances you should give in. Its still better than nothing.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> I'm getting tired of saying I'm not. It's more a case of "Since this (the man up plan) has obviously failed, what next"?


But you are, and the second sentence proves it. You are not doing the Man Up plan to be a better you. You are doing it to get sex. And since that is not happening, it must be because the Man Up plan is not working.

Most women can sniff out a fake pretty quick. Since your wife knows you better than most, she can do it twice as well. She sees you doing this stuff to get sex, not to be a better man. She can tell, even if unconscously, she can just tell.

A couple of years ago, I was frustrated by my sex life. We had sex every 10-14 days. My wife loved me, but was not particularly attracted to me. I did chores around the house, did dishes, played with the kids, all of that. I even did more than my share at times. Because I did that, I expected that she should give me sex because I earned it. I did those things because I wanted sex in return. While she has never said anything, I believe she recognized that and it actually turned her off. 

The I figured it out. I needed to grow up and be a man. I needed to do those same things because that it what an adult does. That is what a man does to keep his home running. So I did those things. I let me wife be a partner with me. I did things because they needed to be done, not because she nagged me (like a mother) or because I wanted something from her (a deal for sex). I did other things as well (like do some stuff on my own, worked out, gave her some space and upped my dating/flirting with her), but I took the attitude that I expected nothing from doing these chores.

Lo and behold, my wife became attracted to me. She saw that I was being a man and liked it. Doing these things with no strings attached allowed her to come to me willingly, as opposed to thinking that she had been bought. Our fequency is at 2-3 times a week. She initiates (in ehr own way) and she is enthusiastic. She flirts back. 

You need to do the man up because it makes you a better man and not for any other reason. It should help you to be more attractive to you wife. I am fortunately that was my result. But sometimes, it will show you that your wife just does not want you. And with that information, you can figure out where you want to go.


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

I've always marveled at this notion of "paying" your husband for things with sex. My husband doesn't accept the payment! :scratchhead:

These situations create a vicious cycle because the more sexually frustrated you get, the more defensive she will get. She obviously doesn't care about your sexual needs and is taking you for granted. I don't think there's much you can do except try to be as zen about it as possible and lay off her, to avoid further tension. Easier said than done, I know.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Chimp - I am in a similar boat and can tell you the only thing that has started to work. Making her understand that sex is something important to you because it conveys her love for you to you. Without her desire, you feel rejected. Sex starved marriage, by Michelle Weiner-Davis is a good book for this (you can read the first chapter for free online). She may not be interested in sex or learning, but you should see if she cares at all for you. The book clarifies that sex for most men and many women is the marker that sets the marriage relationship apart from others and is a key indicator of a healthy relationship.

The ladylike thing is bulls**t. I have 2 daughters (and 2 sons). I would not want my daughters to think that disrespecting their husband's feelings or sex is appropriate for a marriage, and even my wife would admit she would not counsel her sons to marry someone that is dismissive of a satisfying sex life (i.e., someone like she was).

I did not understand what the problem was for so long, so could not communicate it (problem was rejection and degradation of her not caring about me). My W loves me, saw that there was a problem, and has been making an effort. There are bumps - her making jusifications of why she did not want it (all bulls**t); her making certain remarks and then recanting and saying she did not mean it and I am too sensitive . . .

This is a good time to see if your W loves you. If you can communicate that reading a book is important to you, will she do it? Maybe MC, if she'll go, will reveal the same thing. I do not have any experience with that - seems logistically much more difficult.

D may be a good example for your daughters - would you want them to live in unsatisfying marriages with a witch (or warlock) who was dissmissive of them?


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> The end result may be the same in any case... At the end of my marriage, I didn't give my wife an ultimatum or boundaries/consequences. I decided that things weren't going to change in a positive manner, so I told her I wanted a separation. No list of things for her to change or I'm gone. We had already talked about the issues, she acknowledged they were problems, but she wasn't willing to work on them. So I chose to take control of my own happiness.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I see. They might be different approaches, but the end result is the same.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But you are, and the second sentence proves it. You are not doing the Man Up plan to be a better you. You are doing it to get sex. And since that is not happening, it must be because the Man Up plan is not working.


I think I'm not expressing myself well. I am doing the man up plan to feel better about myself. From that standpoint, it is working well. However, the man up plan is frequently said to be the absolute best way to improve your sex life. You do it for yourself, but the improved sex life is a fantastic by-product. And if you don't get fantastic sex, you are in a better position to get together with another woman if you decide to get out. That's the basic layout you get from Athol Kaye.

The man up plan is making me feel better, and it might be making me more attractive - just not to my wife. I am getting the benefit, but I'm not seeing the by-product.

I suppose the question is really "Do I follow the man up plan to its written conclusion and leave my wife to find a more sexually willing partner, or do I try something else. And if so, what?"



> Most women can sniff out a fake pretty quick. Since your wife knows you better than most, she can do it twice as well. She sees you doing this stuff to get sex, not to be a better man. She can tell, even if unconscously, she can just tell.
> 
> A couple of years ago, I was frustrated by my sex life. We had sex every 10-14 days. My wife loved me, but was not particularly attracted to me. I did chores around the house, did dishes, played with the kids, all of that. I even did more than my share at times. Because I did that, I expected that she should give me sex because I earned it. I did those things because I wanted sex in return. While she has never said anything, I believe she recognized that and it actually turned her off.
> 
> The I figured it out. I needed to grow up and be a man. I needed to do those same things because that it what an adult does. That is what a man does to keep his home running. So I did those things. I let me wife be a partner with me. I did things because they needed to be done, not because she nagged me (like a mother) or because I wanted something from her (a deal for sex). I did other things as well (like do some stuff on my own, worked out, gave her some space and upped my dating/flirting with her), but I took the attitude that I expected nothing from doing these chores.


I expect nothing in return - I built a patio because we wanted a patio and couldn't afford to have some else build one, not to get laid. I do washing, ironing etc, and "dad duties" because it's what I do, not to get laid. I work out, play my guitar and help out with a re-enactment society because I like doing it. Since she looks down on these things, I certainly aren't doing them to get laid!

I started the man up plan to feel better about myself and to not be dependent on her for validation. I hoped that by becoming more attractive, I'd get more sex.

I no longer require her validation, but the sex is still crap.



> Lo and behold, my wife became attracted to me. She saw that I was being a man and liked it. Doing these things with no strings attached allowed her to come to me willingly, as opposed to thinking that she had been bought. Our fequency is at 2-3 times a week. She initiates (in ehr own way) and she is enthusiastic. She flirts back.
> 
> You need to do the man up because it makes you a better man and not for any other reason. It should help you to be more attractive to you wife. I am fortunately that was my result. But sometimes, it will show you that your wife just does not want you. And with that information, you can figure out where you want to go.


So the answer is "follow the plan to it's conclusion and leave", because she isn't bothered?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

The Chimp said:


> I think I see. They might be different approaches, but the end result is the same.


They might be. But with the one option, you're making her acknowledge that the separation is a choice she's taking an equal part in. This is her choice, this is the consequence of that choice.

C


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> They might be. But with the one option, you're making her acknowledge that the separation is a choice she's taking an equal part in. This is her choice, this is the consequence of that choice.
> 
> C


I see what you mean, but I don't think anything will actually make her "own" her part in this.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Chimp - I am in a similar boat and can tell you the only thing that has started to work. Making her understand that sex is something important to you because it conveys her love for you to you. Without her desire, you feel rejected. Sex starved marriage, by Michelle Weiner-Davis is a good book for this (you can read the first chapter for free online). She may not be interested in sex or learning, but you should see if she cares at all for you. The book clarifies that sex for most men and many women is the marker that sets the marriage relationship apart from others and is a key indicator of a healthy relationship.


In her view, the sex we have (once or twice a month, no variety, no touching) is a functional sex life and I'm wrong to want more. As far as she's concerned, that should be more than enough to show she cares and meets any needs I cannot otherwise suppress in that department. To her, the box is ticked and it's my excess desire that is harmful.



> The ladylike thing is bulls**t. I have 2 daughters (and 2 sons). I would not want my daughters to think that disrespecting their husband's feelings or sex is appropriate for a marriage, and even my wife would admit she would not counsel her sons to marry someone that is dismissive of a satisfying sex life (i.e., someone like she was).
> 
> I did not understand what the problem was for so long, so could not communicate it (problem was rejection and degradation of her not caring about me). My W loves me, saw that there was a problem, and has been making an effort. There are bumps - her making jusifications of why she did not want it (all bulls**t); her making certain remarks and then recanting and saying she did not mean it and I am too sensitive . . .
> 
> ...


She isn't going to read any books unless they reinforce her position. Why would she? She knows she's right.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> So the answer is "follow the plan to it's conclusion and leave", because she isn't bothered?


Unfortunately, it may be. It all comes down to what you need from your wife, and what you can live with. I can't tell you that leaving is the right thing, but from what you have said, I certainly won't condem you if you do it. 

It is a little like deciding to move to a new location. You start off to get there, and at some point, you look to see if you wife is coming along. If she is, great. If not, you either go back to to that same place, or continue on without her. You can't make her come with you. You can only control you.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My next thoughts... She's not going to change because she has no reason to change. She doesn't see that there's a problem. There's no consequences right now for her actions and decisions, other than listening to you complain every once in a while. 

Sometimes, people need a kick in the pants to realize what's going on. At work, it might be a dressing down from your boss. While driving, it might be a close call while sending a text message, or a speeding ticket. And with a relationship, it might take leaving.

C


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> My next thoughts... She's not going to change because she has no reason to change. She doesn't see that there's a problem. There's no consequences right now for her actions and decisions, other than listening to you complain every once in a while.
> 
> Sometimes, people need a kick in the pants to realize what's going on. At work, it might be a dressing down from your boss. While driving, it might be a close call while sending a text message, or a speeding ticket. And with a relationship, it might take leaving.
> 
> C


I'd like to thing one difference between her and me is that I'm prepared to listen to uncomfortable advice. I can't imagine leaving would be anything other than a permanent thing. I can't think that she would decide to own her problems, and that if I wanted to come back it would have to be on her terms. 

But the thought of being a McDonalds dad kills me


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

What worked for me was that I stopped pushing the sex totally. I started to work later and took up several hobbies. Without a doubt, she thought I was having an affair and started initiating sex much more often. I wasn't cheating at all. It opened her eyes though. I pretended to not want the sex anymore. Several month into this. Over six months, she still initiates romance and is trying new kinky things. After 20 years of hoping for a change, things are finally much better in that department. I stopped getting angry if she wasn't in the mood.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

What's a McDonalds Dad?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

We went from sex 3 time a month to over 3 times a week. That was 3 times or less a month for 19 years and I stayed. What took me so long to not make her feel obligated?


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> What's a McDonalds Dad?


The bloke who gets his kids for a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon at McDonalds.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Already Gone said:


> What worked for me was that I stopped pushing the sex totally. I started to work later and took up several hobbies. Without a doubt, she thought I was having an affair and started initiating sex much more often. I wasn't cheating at all. It opened her eyes though. I pretended to not want the sex anymore. Several month into this. Over six months, she still initiates romance and is trying new kinky things. After 20 years of hoping for a change, things are finally much better in that department. I stopped getting angry if she wasn't in the mood.


I can try this. From crap sex where all you can smell is burning martyr to no sex at all isn't so big a step (I suppose). Apart from the box not getting ticked, I can't see it bothering her, though. I can't imagine her deciding to try anything "fancy" on the strength of this. More likely she'll just enjoy not having to at all.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

It took way well over a month of acting like I had no interest AT ALL. Like you said , it wasn't a big difference going from 2-3 times a month to none at all. The only thing that changed was my attitude. I gave zero hint of interest in sex or any touching. She was wondering what givee? There is a chance that it won't make a difference at all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chimp,
I don't want to pick "one item" out of a long thread and jump to conclusions as I would rather ask questions and better understand your situation. 

You mentioned that when you come up from behind and hug her she complains about being surprised/you creeping up on her. Your response was that you are big - and can't creep up on anyone. 

For the moment lets accept that she is sometimes not paying attention and truly does find a hug/touch from behind "startling" in a not pleasant way. How does she react when you approach her from the front and gently hug her? Does she like/dislike or simply tolerate that? Are your hugs typically "non sexual"? 

I ask because my W loves affection but hates being groped. 

Are there situations/types of touch that your W clearly enjoys? A small percentage of folks don't like being touched - they don't mix well with folks like me who thrive on touch. 

It seems that until (if it is even possible) you can create an environment where she enjoys your touch, sex is going to be a very low quality experience EVEN IF you can get her to increase the frequency. 

A second topic which is related to sex has to do with her general levels of:
- Respect for you and
- Non-sexual desire to please you

Those two items are correlated but worth evaluating separately. It does seem that she says/does a fair amount of fitness testing which raises a question of how much she respects you. It isn't clear how often - when faced with a choice, she asks: "Chimp, what would YOU like to do"? And then happily follows through. 

I have a long post (see below) on fitness testing that addresses the primary types of fitness tests/bad behaviors spouses tend to inflict on each other along with some suggestions on how to respond. You might want to look at it and try to gauge where you are on that scale. If you are in a bad place overall you should gradually try to fix that stuff as it will improve your non-sexual quality of life and your marriage. 

As for not initiating sex. If that is the only thing you do, your are correct in thinking your W will gladly go along with it. However if you do the stuff below in parallel you may get a better result:
1. Consistently address the respect/non sexual prioritization she gives you through better use of humor, body language and where needed: silence. 
2. Make an effort to be upbeat/fun to be around while making sure that you are not coming across as seeking her approval.
3. Try to find types of non-sexual touch that she likes. And create a pattern of doing that. A full body hug before you leave/when you return - unless you read some bad body language from her. 
4. Gradually deprioritize her - not in a combative or argumentative manner. Simply by being around less, being more engaged with the kids, constructive activities. Sitting next to someone on the couch and ignoring them when they try to talk to you is hostile. Playing a board/card game with the kids and asking her to wait until you finish if she wants your attention is a non-hostile form of deprioritization. Especially if you do it in a friendly way. "Hold that thought darling, I will catch up with you when we finish our game" works fine. If her need isn't truly urgent - and she pokes at you - just smile and say "not in front of the children".

All of this can be worked through during a 3 month period if you are disciplined. And that means keeping in mind that if you allow her to "get you angry" you are showing her that she can emotionally overpower you. A calm firm voice and if needed a "we are not going to discuss this until you can be respectful" and then walking away - will work with most people. 

At some point if all the non-bedroom stuff is working and she is still not showing any willingness to make an effort in bed, you can initiate the "long game". The long game goes something like this: 
- You gently and concisely explain that the lack of "emotionally engaged sex - where she clearly WANTS to please you" is not conducive to a long term - happy marriage.
- You mention that for many years the kids will continue to be a "stabilizing" force in your marriage. 
- And then you ask her, what is it she believes keeps people together after their kids leave the house. And if need be you answer the question for her: They stay together either due to strong financial ties OR love. The former case is not so happy. The latter case is hopefully what she wants. 

Somewhere along this path, should you choose it, she may bluntly ask you: "So this is all about sex isn't it"? And I can tell from your posts that is far from true, so perhaps you should take the chance to tell her what is true. "This is about the fact that you are the most important person in my life and your happiness is a top priority for me. And yet I often feel as if I am not very important to you, and my happiness is not a big factor to you. And that feels BAD."

The intent of the playing the "long game" is to avoid a situation where the kids leave, you are DONE and follow on their heels and she is left wondering what the he!! just happened and is also in a weaker financial position than she wants to be. Some consider the long game to be a manipulative tactic. The truth is far different. It is cruel to leave someone decades together, when that person thinks that what they are doing has been acceptable to you all along, when in fact it very much isn't. 



The Chimp said:


> I can try this. From crap sex where all you can smell is burning martyr to no sex at all isn't so big a step (I suppose). Apart from the box not getting ticked, I can't see it bothering her, though. I can't imagine her deciding to try anything "fancy" on the strength of this. More likely she'll just enjoy not having to at all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*fitness testing/boundary testing*

Boundary handbook:

Introduction

Boundary testing: A boundary test is an interaction that violates the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). 

This handbook is for folks in LTRs including marriage. It is mostly predicated on two things: (1) situational awareness and (2) self control. Being highly aware of boundary testing behaviors will only help you if you are able to manage your Anger, Fear and Insecurity. Get a handle on those and the rest of this is just technique. Practice and you will get good at it. 

If you want to get the most out of this handbook, you should consider the strategies below. 
1.	This is about patterns of behavior not the occasional oops. The purpose here is not to turn anyone into a hyper-vigilant whack job who takes everything personally. 
2.	After a first read, while filled with indignation about all of your partner’s boundary violations, ask yourself:
a.	How often you do this type of stuff to them
b.	When you do it, do they make a big deal about it, or not
c.	Whether this is a boundary issue or a different type of relationship issue (maybe you talk too much about stuff they find boring, or maybe you complain a lot more than you realize)
3.	If you decide that your boundaries really are getting badly violated, take heart:
a.	Your partner is likely VERY consistent. This means you can plan ahead how you will respond to these boundary breaching behaviors.
b.	Humor is best, but you should be teasing THEM. Absent humor, be VERY short on words. Instead use of tone of voice and body language. And stay calm – they may not be calm – but you must. 
4.	Are they really behaving badly “overall” or are your standards unrealistic? The best way to triangulate:
a.	Do your friends/family show much more respect for your boundaries than your partner does? 
b.	Does your partner show much more respect for their friends and families boundaries than yours? 

In general you have a serious problem if:
- your partner treats other people noticeably better than they treat you and/or
- other people treat you a lot better than your partner does 

The good news. Even if your partner is consistently violating your boundaries and treating you worse than they treat the maid, it is likely fixable. In fact boundary management can become one of the most entertaining aspects of your marriage if you master it. Engage properly with your “boundary testing partner” and it will help you reach your full emotional potential. And a partner who helps you reach your full potential is by definition a great partner. The stuff below is rarely malicious, it is just a “style of interaction”. 

The bad news. If you do not enforce your boundaries, your partner will gradually lose respect and ultimately love for you. They will frequently do things to you they would absolutely not accept you or anyone else doing to them and they will slowly but surely get “worse” over time. You have two choices, learn how to enforce your boundaries, or continue getting your butt slowly but steadily kicked until you literally have no a$$ left and no choice but to stand at attention and do “each and every little thing that pops into their head” until they tire of you and find someone more fun to play with. 

The way a typical person deals with a boundary testing partner is this: 
-	The tester does a series of minor things you dislike. Each of those things is below your threshold for conflict. Hey you’re a grownup. You don’t sweat the small stuff. You don’t want to be petty. Besides you love your spouse and these individual items are “NOT WORTH A FIGHT”. Meanwhile you DO notice this stuff and it is slowly making you angry. 
-	Finally they do one more of them after you have had a long stressful day, or you are tired, or worse have had a few beers. You now erupt into high intensity conflict HIC mode. You say and do inappropriate things. When the dust settles you apologize for being a jerk. Which you SHOULD, because you WERE a jerk. Classic passive/aggressive. Very destructive. After having that happen enough you decide you no longer want to fight (since you always lose) and you simply become passive/passive. 

If you want to get good at this the first step is to recognize the main categories of boundary testing:
1.	I am more important than you are (my time, my feelings, my priorities, my money, my social status)
2.	You are not important: Everything and everybody else in my life consistently gets prioritized ahead of you. 
3.	I am able to directly control your emotional state. I can make you angry, afraid and/or insecure at will
4.	I am able to manipulate your actions through a combination of 1 and 2 in a manner that clearly violates the golden rule 

Before digging into the long, near exhaustive (and therefore possibly boring  list of categorized boundary violating behaviors), I am going to hit the “deadly” dozen. I am starting with the topic of apologies. Or non-apologies. Or one of my favorites “I’m mad at you because you’re mad at me”. 

Chapter 1: I am more important than you are

Apologies: The technical term for this section is “error management”. I am not even going to call this “conflict” management. Because there are folks who excel at “jumping over” their own bad behavior. Literally they pretend like nothing happened, and they often get away with it. This is a big aspect of a relationship, maybe even be THE biggest one. We all make mistakes, treat each other unfairly, etc. The list below goes from your basic perfect world, slowly down the steps to Hell. For the purpose of this discussion, let’s pick a case where a few things are true. (1) Your partner has very clearly treated you badly. (2) There is no way they would tolerate you doing to them, what they just did to you. (3) You are no longer “in the moment”, and in fact have some quality time in which the event can/should be addressed. 

I call this section “apologies” only because that is actually the standard way in which 21st century people think about redress. The irony is that a “spoken” apology might mean a lot, and it might mean almost nothing. You cannot tell the first time around. You can however tell if someone keeps doing the same “unkind” thing to you and then sincerely apologizing. Those apologies are hollow. 

1.	GOLD STANDARD: THEY bring it up shortly after it happens. They don’t wait to see if you will let it go. THEY believe you deserve better than that. They apologize, commit to behaving better next time, and do something nice for you to show their contrition is sincere.
2.	When you bring it up they apologize, commit to fixing it and perform some acts of contrition. 
3.	They don’t apologize but they DO commit to not repeating the behavior. If sincere, this is actually WAY more important than an apology. 
4.	They sincerely apologize but avoid committing to change. Beware the “empty” apology that means nothing. This step is however a positive step. By the second or third empty apology you simply begin insisting on a commitment to improve.
5.	They flat out refuse to commit to handling that type situation differently/better in the future 
6.	They give you the non-apology. Some variation of “I am sorry if that hurt your feelings”. The implication is that you are too sensitive. 
7.	They go into “lawyer” mode and explain that while normally this behavior is frowned on, in this specific case it was justified by “insert long, self serving rationalization”. 
8.	They directly blame you. If only you hadn’t forgotten to take about the trash on Memorial day 3 years ago, they wouldn’t still be angry and would never have done this. 
9.	They deny the whole thing. Look you in the eye and deny that it ever happened. 
10.	They deny the whole thing and attack you for even SUGGESTING they might do something like that.
11.	They deny, attack you for suggesting it and then blow it up into “I am not even talking to you until you apologize” for even saying such a thing. 



Assuming you are generally emotionally positive/upbeat and are also conversationally competent, (you don’t subject your partner to endless observations about particle physics, needlepoint, or other stuff they find deadly boring) the stuff below is “I am more important than you”

Focus: 
Some litmus test questions for focus are: 
1.	How difficult is it to get your partners full and undivided attention? 
2.	Does your partner expect or demand your undivided attention, but rarely give you theirs?
3.	Does your partner try to avoid situations where the two of you block out the rest of the world?

If you are interesting and fun to be with, you should address these types of behaviors because they tend to cause ripple effects throughout the relationship. 

Quality Time:
While having dinner for two your partners phone comes out and stays out while they multi-task between your conversation, and a phone based game/texting/talking on the phone. In an extreme case, the phone, not you, is primary focus. This applies to any “one on one” situation including standing in a long line. 

It is ok if your partner is “child focused” to the point where they feel the need to be “available” to the kids/baby sitter while you are out. But that means they only take calls from the kids, keep them brief AND emphasize to the kids/sitter that they want communication limited to urgent matters. 

In the normal course of your day, it is a bad idea to:
1.	Allow your partner to get in the habit of initiating a conversation with you while they are engaged in an activity (reading/texting) that also requires concentration. 
2.	Get in the habit of initiating a conversation while your partner is doing something (reading/texting) with you expecting and clearly being agreeable to getting at most partial attention.
3.	Continue a conversation even though your partner is getting frequently interrupted by non-urgent kids/calls/texts/etc. If they are legitimately busy, go do something else. Hey you have a phone too.
4.	Continue a conversation when your partner is clearly distracted/not fully engaged due to their "internal" state (boredom, fatigue, anxiety about something). If they are anxious about something, get them to talk about it. But don’t settle for partial attention. 

Prioritization:
Don’t confuse “focus” with “prioritization”. A good example of the distinction: You spend 8 uninterrupted hours together, and your partner is focused – but the WHOLE conversation is about THEM. Even worse, when you attempt to actually change the subject to you, they quickly steer it back to themselves. This is a matter of “I am paying attention to you solely to ensure we are both completely focused on ME”. 
Some litmus test questions for prioritization are: 
1.	How often does your partner really want to know about your day? I don’t mean they ask the perfunctory “how was your day”? I mean, they really want to know. And when you tell them they empathize and even ask some questions. 
2.	How often do you actually do what “you” want, when your partner wants to do something else? 
3.	How often do they even open up with “what/where would you like to “go/do”?

The spectrum for handling priority “conflicts” is below. From “great” to – “why don’t my needs matter”?:
1.	Giving: They know you. And that means they know what matters to you. If the conflict is in an area where it is very important to you, and not so much to them, they smile and do what makes you happy. 
2.	Proactive: THEY suggest a solution which meets both your needs even if it isn’t exactly what you want right now. 
3.	Reactive/cooperative: They don’t make a win/win suggestion, but are fully receptive to yours
4.	Reactive/resistant: They resist but ultimately agree to the win/win
5.	Oppositional/defiant: They refuse the win/win even when it is fair. They want what they want. What you want – well that doesn’t matter because ummmm – well – you don’t matter.

B. Tone: (from good to – why the hell did I marry this person)
1.	Using a loving, patient and kind tone
2.	Using a neutral tone
3.	Speaking to you as if you are less than an equal/a servant - issuing commands - instead of making requests 
4.	Responding to a serious/awkward question you have asked - with silence
5.	Interrupting you frequently and/or interrupting you without acknowledging they have done so with a - "sorry I interrupted - what were you saying"?
6.	Allowing or subtly encouraging THEIR friends/family to routinely interrupt you 
7.	Frequently putting you down in private sometimes under the guise of joking around 
8.	Putting you down in public 
9.	Being quickly/casually dismissive of your suggestions, requests and/or ideas
10.	When you first see each other at the end of a work day immediately complaining, nagging, launching into a long detailed self focused interaction
11.	Responding with impatience/anger/indifference when you are trying to convey something important/intimate about yourself (such as initiating sex, or actually while you are having sex, or sharing a painful experience)

2. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your emotional state”: 
A.	In the middle of a low emotion conversation you get “sucker punched”. Which means your partner is being highly critical of you, and/or is very angry/threatening towards you without any warning and with little or no apparent reason
B.	Trying to get you to own “their” emotions. For instance “I am too stressed” to ever be in the mood. This is an indirect way to say “unless you can remove most/all the stressors from my environment” you will be involuntary celibate “inCel”
C.	Repeatedly delivering a critical or negative message wrapped in humor and claiming “they are just kidding”
D.	Taking their bad day out “on” you, instead of sharing it “with” you 
E.	Attacking your “core” instead of addressing a situation
F.	Attacking your behavior with “always and never” you always “…” you never “…” 
G.	Rapidly escalating in emotional intensity and aggressiveness when you disagree with how they are treating you
H.	Working the “fear” button by:
o Vague or not so vague threats to end the relationship
o	Forming and pursuing inappropriate relationships with potential mates

3. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your behavior”: 
A. Acting angry when:
o	They were clearly in the wrong until YOU apologize or
o	Until YOU try to defuse by being extra nice even if you don’t overtly apologize
o	You bring up a topic they don’t want to discuss (lack of sex, rude behavior on their part, inconsiderate behavior on their part)
o	You talk about doing something they don’t want you to do, and when asked about “why” they don’t want you to do it, giving you the “shutdown” via “I am not going to discuss this with you”. Staying angry until you agree not to do it
o	They aren’t getting their way
B. Accusing YOU of being controlling when:
o	You are simply enforcing reasonable boundaries 
o	You are asking them to follow through on a commitment 
C. Getting you to complement them or even getting you to initiate sex when they have no intention of saying yes. This category is a type of transfer of “self esteem”. They get the boost of knowing you “want” them, and you get rejected/told they DON’T want you. 
o	Flirting with you during the day and then avoiding bed until they are “too tired”
o	Flirting with you and then when you initiate, creating some conflict to avoid sex
o	Asking you for compliments on their appearance when they never reciprocate 

My W fell in love with the Man she knew I could become. And she then proceeded to apply a relentless mix of love and pain to help me get there. If I had simply understood the curriculum at the beginning, the process would have been much less painful. Of course she would say I did the same for her. Maybe that’s true, but it sure feels like I have learned more. 

SB,
You are right that having children represents a giant commitment level and simply cannot be “undone”. It is also true that most people want more than one child. And that means if you get deprioritized after child one, you can and should have a conversation about that being your only child. You can recalibrate a marriage in one year over this. And by holding firm on this point, you can also make sure your partner really, truly understands that you are not simply there for their convenience. And I think this message can be delivered in a calm, constructive manner:
“I need to talk to you about something important, … while I always expected our children to come first, I never expected to be deprioritized to the degree I have been. So much so that if I had to decide right now, I would not have any more children. “ 
And then watch what happens. A decent partner will “Wake up”, a bad partner will attack you for “not understanding how hard it is”. And a sane response to that is: “I am not saying it is easy for you. I am just not willing to add children into a marriage where after just one child, my core needs are being ignored.” A tricky partner will improve their behavior for a short time and then try to press you to have a second child. Generally speaking, the bigger their hurry, the stronger their intent to revert back to ignoring you once pregnant. 
As always, the areas where I focus are high risk because they are the things that really “matter” to your partner. A highly aggressive partner “might” take an extreme position along the lines of:
-	Nothing is wrong, they are treating you great
-	If you will not have a second child and a third, etc. they will divorce you

And then you have to decide what you want to do. Generally, giving in to emotional extortion (which is what this is) creates a marriage where you have little say in how you are treated, or what happens with the kids. Because there is always the threat of “I will leave you unless….”. 

I firmly believe that in most screwed up marriages, the huge red flags were waving prior to child number one being conceived. They start waving after engagement, and get worse after marriage. I have read so many posts describing multiple years of bad marriage before the first child. 









The Chimp said:


> The bloke who gets his kids for a couple of hours on a Saturday afternoon at McDonalds.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Chimp 

Here is the part of the original post that really struck me



The Chimp said:


> I asked her how I am supposed to feel as the second most important man in the marriage, after her grandfather, and she told me I would never be better than third best, after him and her father!
> 
> I don’t want to divorce and become a Saturday afternoon McDonalds dad, but I can’t see a way through this.
> .


On the first point I think it says a lot about how important you are to her and how she views the marriage in general.

On the second point, unfortunately that is the reality many men face in your situation. Leaving her almost certainly means leaving your children.

I would bet very heavily against any change on her part.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> I was furious, and told her so. She replied that she had sung that to her granddad when she was little, and that was important. I asked her how I am supposed to feel as the second most important man in the marriage, after her grandfather, and she told me I would never be better than third best, after him and her father!


Chimp,

The bigger question than why you stay with this nutjob, is why the hell did you marry her in the first place?

She is cracked... bonkers... goofy... nutty... irrational... insane... prudish... sexually repressed... and downright hateful and plain mean. 

Now I ask you again, why do you remain?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Already Gone said:


> It took way well over a month of acting like I had no interest AT ALL. Like you said , it wasn't a big difference going from 2-3 times a month to none at all. The only thing that changed was my attitude. I gave zero hint of interest in sex or any touching. She was wondering what givee? There is a chance that it won't make a difference at all.


There was good ol' whatshisface not that long ago. Had this master plan about how he cured his sex life woes by imposed a sex "no go" period of like 6 months. He kept going on about how at the end of that, he'd have sex coming out his ears, and everyone would be jealous of him. I think his wife said "thank you very much for not pestering me anymore", and that's about where it ended. But I think he was a whack job, and every couple is different

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

PBear said:


> There was good ol' whatshisface not that long ago. Had this master plan about how he cured his sex life woes by imposed a sex "no go" period of like 6 months. He kept going on about how at the end of that, he'd have sex coming out his ears, and everyone would be jealous of him. I think his wife said "thank you very much for not pestering me anymore", and that's about where it ended. But I think he was a whack job, and every couple is different
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I hope I am not a wack job... but who knows! Believe me... Things are far from perfect. I really don't care anymore. Sex with my wifw doesn't matter anymore and she may feel she that I am ALREADY GONE. I stay because I love my daughter. I don't believe my wife and I even love each other. We are just friends with benifits.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

What benefits?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Chimp,
> 
> The bigger question than why you stay with this nutjob, is why the hell did you marry her in the first place?
> 
> ...



I think Chimp stays because of is children. He doesn't want to be a "McDonalds Dad". I read to my Daughter almost every night. That is more important to me than sex. It just took a long time for my need for sex to be less important than time with my daughter.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Already Gone said:


> I hope I am not a wack job... but who knows! Believe me... Things are far from perfect. I really don't care anymore. Sex with my wifw doesn't matter anymore and she may feel she that I am ALREADY GONE. I stay because I love my daughter. I don't believe my wife and I even love each other. We are just friends with benifits.


Oh, I wasnt referring to you as a whack job! It was another poster. He kept claiming his sex life issues were fixed, because he was going to get all the sex he wanted next week. But next week was always the same old, same old. He kept deleting his threads as cleanup as well, so nobody could follow his story.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> What benefits?


SEX! Just sex. No more loving feelings!

The only time we kiss is during sex.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

PBear said:


> Oh, I wasnt referring to you as a whack job! It was another poster. He kept claiming his sex life issues were fixed, because he was going to get all the sex he wanted next week. But next week was always the same old, same old. He kept deleting his threads as cleanup as well, so nobody could follow his story.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My goal wasn't to get my wife to have sex...I totally expected that my wife would never have sex again and I was mentally prepared for that. I was even sleping in the spare bedroom after she went to sleep or if she was ready for bed and I wanted to read, I went to the other room and stayed there all night. When she started to initiate sex, my back would "hurt" on some occasions from working out too hard. I would be fine if she was on top which was something she didn't like to do before. She actually likes it now! I still don't initiate sex, but I am always ready for it when she wants it. Maybe all I want from her is to get my rocks off. I know that make me sound like a whack job. That is why I am on TAM

I don't know how long it will last, but I am OK with just sex... by the way... We haven't said I Love You in way way over a year. I am still trying to figure that one out.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Chimp,
> 
> The bigger question than why you stay with this nutjob, is why the hell did you marry her in the first place?


She didn't seem like this at the time. It's got to this stage over the last five years



> She is cracked... bonkers... goofy... nutty... irrational...


Aren't most of us


> insane...


 I wouldn't go that far...


> prudish... sexually repressed...


 This I agree with


> and downright hateful and plain mean.


 Now that's a bit harsh!



> Now I ask you again, why do you remain?


In no particular order, my children and the fact she wasn't always like this (or didn't appear to be like this)


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

PBear said:


> There was good ol' whatshisface not that long ago. Had this master plan about how he cured his sex life woes by imposed a sex "no go" period of like 6 months. He kept going on about how at the end of that, he'd have sex coming out his ears, and everyone would be jealous of him. I think his wife said "thank you very much for not pestering me anymore", and that's about where it ended. But I think he was a whack job, and every couple is different
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember him! He carried on like he was one step away from inventing a perpetual motion machine! I thought he was a whacko too, actually.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

MEM11363,

There's too much there for me to read, understand and absorb quickly. I'll read it and reply with my queries. I'm betting there is stuff I wont understand and will need your input on.

Thanks,

Chimp


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## Leaver (Jan 31, 2012)

Chimp, 

Realize I'm a bit unstable, as I'm going through a separation right now. BUT, 

The possible bottom lines are: 

1 - You don't do it for her. You are not man enough for her. Recently found out that is my problem. Not tall enough, not bossy enough, too considerate, too sensitive, too emotional, didn't have enough fights, etc...yet she tells me with obvious joy in her voice about past boyfriends, and how they 'could really boss.' I can't even tell you what that feels like. All this time I thought being a nice guy was why she liked me. Turns out I need to be more like them: to cheat, to yell, throw things, and become an alcoholic. While it make me sad to know that this is what really turns women on, I am going to set on a path to become an abusive alcoholic philanderer, then maybe someone will love me. /end sarchasm 

2 - You are being utterly used. Reverse the situation. What do you call someone who only receives, but does not give? A user. She is happy to take all the fruits of your giving tree. 

3 - There may be an off chance she is just REALLY pissed at you and feels devalued. I doubt this is the case. 

One thing is certain: She is setting a HORRIBLE example for her daughters. To be so unloving to the man who provides food, shelter, care, and love is to tell them that they should simply do what they can get away with, and never concern themselves with what is right and good. It is unchristian, and abusive. We are not talking about a 'duty' here.

We are talking about a learned lack of empathy. She has no genuine appreciation of you. So much so that her body physically shuts off to you. If she were able to put herself in your shoes, she would see all that you do for her. But she does not. All she can see is her needs. Despite the fact that you physically provide for the needs of your family. 

There is nothing ladylike about this lady. She is setting her family up for shattering, and that is ON HER. If your family breaks up, it lays ENTIRELY ON HER. Sex and affection is a human need, just like our need to be loved and to eat.


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## Leaver (Jan 31, 2012)

Questions to ask her:

1 - "Why are you doing this to our family?" Her actions put her family at risk. Emotional risk, financial risk. 

2 - "Can't you see I'm loosing my mind? I've tried everything I know. ____ and _____ and _____, yet nothing I do FOR YOU seems to matter to you." Make sure she knows that all this stuff you've been doing was to attract her. 

None of this will work, but do it anyway. You need to have piece of mind that you tried everything you knew, plus all you read about. When you have tried everything, then you can be at peace, knowing you gave it an HONEST try.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

Her ranking her father and grandfather ahead of you is a GIGANTIC red flag. It's telling me that she does not respect you AT ALL. That feeling lack of respect is fully supported by her actions.

I agree it's a very tough place to be when kids are in the picture.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Zzyzx said:


> Her ranking her father and grandfather ahead of you is a GIGANTIC red flag. It's telling me that she does not respect you AT ALL. That feeling lack of respect is fully supported by her actions.


As far as I can see that was the most important point.

Its no so much that she may admire her father and grandfather and even put them on a pedestal, or even that she is uncomfortable about sex, but putting it in such harsh its seems obvious that she really doesn't value her husband. 

She has either has completely taken him for granted feels he will never leave no matter how she behaves, or she is/has fallen out of love.

Quite simply, in her mind Chimp is literally "third rate" and that is how she is acting.

If it was me, I would say goodbye to bad, humiliating pity sex and begin the process of emotional separation from her even if leaving the children/marriage is not on the table for now.


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## meelanse (Feb 13, 2012)

It may be your experience, but some benefit is there. View SexManual.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

MEM11363,

There is a lot here. I will try to put my questions or responses in sensible places where hopefully you can follow them and explain if you think it will help.



MEM11363 said:


> You mentioned that when you come up from behind and hug her she complains about being surprised/you creeping up on her. Your response was that you are big - and can't creep up on anyone.
> 
> For the moment lets accept that she is sometimes not paying attention and truly does find a hug/touch from behind "startling" in a not pleasant way. How does she react when you approach her from the front and gently hug her? Does she like/dislike or simply tolerate that? Are your hugs typically "non sexual"?


They are intended to be non-sexual - I don't to them with a sexual result in mind, but I will put my hands up and say I do like the way she feels and I hug her because I like it too. If it's head on and gentle, the response is usually "not here" or "not now" or "get off me" no matter where we are, when it is or what we are doing. The response is neutral at it's best, and she never returns a hug. She just stays still and passive.



> I ask because my W loves affection but hates being groped.
> 
> Are there situations/types of touch that your W clearly enjoys? A small percentage of folks don't like being touched - they don't mix well with folks like me who thrive on touch.


Not nowadays - she used to like cuddling, hand holding, arms around one another when walking e.t.c.



> It seems that until (if it is even possible) you can create an environment where she enjoys your touch, sex is going to be a very low quality experience EVEN IF you can get her to increase the frequency.


Oh _good_. Sorry, I know you might be right but it still isn't very good news, is it?



> A second topic which is related to sex has to do with her general levels of:
> - Respect for you and
> - Non-sexual desire to please you
> 
> Those two items are correlated but worth evaluating separately. It does seem that she says/does a fair amount of fitness testing which raises a question of how much she respects you. It isn't clear how often - when faced with a choice, she asks: "Chimp, what would YOU like to do"? And then happily follows through.


If you mean does something I want to do with me, then not very often. She will let me do what I want to do, but usually I get to do it on my own. 



> I have a long post (see below) on fitness testing that addresses the primary types of fitness tests/bad behaviors spouses tend to inflict on each other along with some suggestions on how to respond. You might want to look at it and try to gauge where you are on that scale. If you are in a bad place overall you should gradually try to fix that stuff as it will improve your non-sexual quality of life and your marriage.
> 
> As for not initiating sex. If that is the only thing you do, your are correct in thinking your W will gladly go along with it. However if you do the stuff below in parallel you may get a better result:
> 1. Consistently address the respect/non sexual prioritization she gives you through better use of humor, body language and where needed: silence.
> ...


Isn't this going to be almost impossible? There are only so many ways I can touch her, and I am fairly sure I have tried most of them. If she didn't like them before, she isn't going to like them when I am making her uncomfortable about how she is treating me, is she? 


> 4. Gradually deprioritize her - not in a combative or argumentative manner. Simply by being around less, being more engaged with the kids, constructive activities. Sitting next to someone on the couch and ignoring them when they try to talk to you is hostile. Playing a board/card game with the kids and asking her to wait until you finish if she wants your attention is a non-hostile form of deprioritization. Especially if you do it in a friendly way. "Hold that thought darling, I will catch up with you when we finish our game" works fine. If her need isn't truly urgent - and she pokes at you - just smile and say "not in front of the children".


I don't think she will like this. I'm not bothered per say that she will not like it, but she is not used to being ignored (as she sees it) and takes it very badly. If she does not get your full attention she thinkks you are insulting her, no matter what the circumstances are.



> All of this can be worked through during a 3 month period if you are disciplined. And that means keeping in mind that if you allow her to "get you angry" you are showing her that she can emotionally overpower you. A calm firm voice and if needed a "we are not going to discuss this until you can be respectful" and then walking away - will work with most people.
> 
> At some point if all the non-bedroom stuff is working and she is still not showing any willingness to make an effort in bed, you can initiate the "long game". The long game goes something like this:
> - You gently and concisely explain that the lack of "emotionally engaged sex - where she clearly WANTS to please you" is not conducive to a long term - happy marriage.
> ...


This is great advice. I think it will be very hard to implement even the first bit in three months because I think there will be a lot of resistance from her. What is the solution if she just fights and fights and fights every move I make? Do I just try to wear her down?


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

*Re: fitness testing/boundary testing*

Wow, there is a lot here.



MEM11363 said:


> Boundary handbook:
> 
> Introduction
> 
> Boundary testing: A boundary test is an interaction that violates the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you).


I sometimes wonder if the Golden Rule in the U.K. is 'do unto others as you can get away with' 



> 4.	Are they really behaving badly “overall” or are your standards unrealistic? The best way to triangulate:
> a.	Do your friends/family show much more respect for your boundaries than your partner does?
> b.	Does your partner show much more respect for their friends and families boundaries than yours?
> 
> ...


She does this. But in a wierd way. She treats other people better to their faces and then do's then down afterwards when they are not there. Like she wants to make a good impression but does not actually like or respect them most of the time or like she is bothered what they think about her, but even though she doesn't care _about_ them. Does that make sense to you?




> If you want to get good at this the first step is to recognize the main categories of boundary testing:
> 1.	I am more important than you are (my time, my feelings, my priorities, my money, my social status)
> 2.	You are not important: Everything and everybody else in my life consistently gets prioritized ahead of you.
> 3.	I am able to directly control your emotional state. I can make you angry, afraid and/or insecure at will
> 4.	I am able to manipulate your actions through a combination of 1 and 2 in a manner that clearly violates the golden rule


 She does lots of 1and 2. She does not seem to care about my emotional state, only what 'other people' might think of her.


> 5.	They flat out refuse to commit to handling that type situation differently/better in the future
> 6.	They give you the non-apology. Some variation of “I am sorry if that hurt your feelings”. The implication is that you are too sensitive.
> 7.	They go into “lawyer” mode and explain that while normally this behavior is frowned on, in this specific case it was justified by “insert long, self serving rationalization”.


These three are the commonest



> Focus:
> Some litmus test questions for focus are:
> 1.	How difficult is it to get your partners full and undivided attention?


Sometimes quite difficult


> 2.	Does your partner expect or demand your undivided attention, but rarely give you theirs?


Yes


> 3.	Does your partner try to avoid situations where the two of you block out the rest of the world?


 Can't say I have noticed.


> Quality Time:
> While having dinner for two your partners phone comes out and stays out while they multi-task between your conversation, and a phone based game/texting/talking on the phone. In an extreme case, the phone, not you, is primary focus. This applies to any “one on one” situation including standing in a long line.


Does not do this or similar things



> Prioritization:
> Don’t confuse “focus” with “prioritization”. A good example of the distinction: You spend 8 uninterrupted hours together, and your partner is focused – but the WHOLE conversation is about THEM. Even worse, when you attempt to actually change the subject to you, they quickly steer it back to themselves. This is a matter of “I am paying attention to you solely to ensure we are both completely focused on ME”.
> Some litmus test questions for prioritization are:
> 1.	How often does your partner really want to know about your day? I don’t mean they ask the perfunctory “how was your day”? I mean, they really want to know. And when you tell them they empathize and even ask some questions.


Rarely and seldom without some sarky comment.



> 2.	How often do you actually do what “you” want, when your partner wants to do something else?


Usually on my own


> 3.	How often do they even open up with “what/where would you like to “go/do”?


Very rarely



> 5.	Oppositional/defiant: They refuse the win/win even when it is fair. They want what they want. What you want – well that doesn’t matter because ummmm – well – you don’t matter.


Yes


> 3.	Speaking to you as if you are less than an equal/a servant - issuing commands - instead of making requests
> 4.	Responding to a serious/awkward question you have asked - with silence
> 5.	Interrupting you frequently and/or interrupting you without acknowledging they have done so with a - "sorry I interrupted - what were you saying"?
> 6.	Allowing or subtly encouraging THEIR friends/family to routinely interrupt you
> ...


Lots of these



> B.	Trying to get you to own “their” emotions. For instance “I am too stressed” to ever be in the mood. This is an indirect way to say “unless you can remove most/all the stressors from my environment” you will be involuntary celibate “inCel”
> 
> 
> D.	Taking their bad day out “on” you, instead of sharing it “with” you
> ...


Yes



> 3. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your behavior”:
> A. Acting angry when:
> o	They were clearly in the wrong until YOU apologize or
> o	Until YOU try to defuse by being extra nice even if you don’t overtly apologize
> ...


This is familiar


> o	Flirting with you during the day and then avoiding bed until they are “too tired”
> o	Flirting with you and then when you initiate, creating some conflict to avoid sex


And this isn't. "Ladies don't flirt".


> o	Asking you for compliments on their appearance when they never reciprocate


ALL THE TIME...



> My W fell in love with the Man she knew I could become. And she then proceeded to apply a relentless mix of love and pain to help me get there. If I had simply understood the curriculum at the beginning, the process would have been much less painful. Of course she would say I did the same for her. Maybe that’s true, but it sure feels like I have learned more.


I am not sure if this is just too subtle for me or does not apply so much to me that it makes no sense at all. You've lost me 


> SB,
> You are right that having children represents a giant commitment level and simply cannot be “undone”. It is also true that most people want more than one child. And that means if you get deprioritized after child one, you can and should have a conversation about that being your only child. You can recalibrate a marriage in one year over this. And by holding firm on this point, you can also make sure your partner really, truly understands that you are not simply there for their convenience. And I think this message can be delivered in a calm, constructive manner:
> “I need to talk to you about something important, … while I always expected our children to come first, I never expected to be deprioritized to the degree I have been. So much so that if I had to decide right now, I would not have any more children. “
> And then watch what happens. A decent partner will “Wake up”, a bad partner will attack you for “not understanding how hard it is”. And a sane response to that is: “I am not saying it is easy for you. I am just not willing to add children into a marriage where after just one child, my core needs are being ignored.” A tricky partner will improve their behavior for a short time and then try to press you to have a second child. Generally speaking, the bigger their hurry, the stronger their intent to revert back to ignoring you once pregnant.
> ...


I think I get this but I am not sure if it applies. Was it written for someone else? And so often society tells you once there are children that as a man your needs DO NOT matter and you should not expect to have them met, unless there is something left once the children have everything they need or want.

Does what I have written suggest any special high priorities (I won't say 'easy things' because I don't suppose there are any!)

THanks again,

Chimpy


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: fitness testing/boundary testing*

Chimp,
Your responses are quite encouraging. You understand the specific patterns facing you. Having a high level of situation awareness is good. 

You have to fix this stuff or it will feed the "I matter/you don't" themem  cdsd 





The Chimp said:


> Wow, there is a lot here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> I've read, understood and implemented this all over (fitness, hobbies, haircuts etc) I can say that I'm having my hair cut this way, like it or not. Set a boundary, enforce it.
> 
> If I set a boundary that I want good, regular, enthusiastic sex with a bit of variety, how do I enforce it? It isn't in my gift to enforce this. I can decide I'll take part in by hobbies with her agreement or without, but I can't have sex with her without her consent.


You are correct that you cannot force her to have sex. That is why you have to have a boundary to enforce.

What if you let her know you will do XYZ in response to her sexual refusal? Let's say you went real radical and disassembled the patio (to get her attention)? When she complains just throw her crap back at her - say something like "who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do? I did not wind up liking the patio but I'll make you a deal. The hammer and nails are over there; if you want it up that badly I won't oppose you".

Second question: why do you assume if you leave you will be a Saturday afternoon dad? Did your lawyer tell you that? I would suggest that any talk made of separating or divorce includes you saying that you will make sure she gets as absolutely little as possible.

I'm pretty certain that my ex's post marriage reality is not in line with her expectations (sole control over my daughter's schooling and doctoring, a big chunk of assets, large support payments). I think that if she knew it would turn out as it has she would not be so quick to leave. Depending on how bad you want to stay married, this approach might be worth a shot.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

*Re: fitness testing/boundary testing*



MEM11363 said:


> Chimp,
> Your responses are quite encouraging. You understand the specific patterns facing you. Having a high level of situation awareness is good.


OK, so I understand the problem. I'm not sure it gives me many more tools, other than wearing her down. I know what to look for, and I suppose I'm not missing too many things I need to sort out



> You have to fix this stuff or it will feed the "I matter/you don't"


OK up to here


> themem  cdsd


But you have lost me with this bit. Does this mean something important, or is it an acronym I don't understand?


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

DTO said:


> You are correct that you cannot force her to have sex. That is why you have to have a boundary to enforce.
> 
> What if you let her know you will do XYZ in response to her sexual refusal? Let's say you went real radical and disassembled the patio (to get her attention)? When she complains just throw her crap back at her - say something like "who are you to tell me what I can and cannot do? I did not wind up liking the patio but I'll make you a deal. The hammer and nails are over there; if you want it up that badly I won't oppose you".


I don't see how it applies to sex! I can only do what I can do. I can enforce what I can do myself, but I can't make her do stuff. I can only stop her doing things I don'tv want her to do.



> Second question: why do you assume if you leave you will be a Saturday afternoon dad? Did your lawyer tell you that? I would suggest that any talk made of separating or divorce includes you saying that you will make sure she gets as absolutely little as possible.
> 
> I'm pretty certain that my ex's post marriage reality is not in line with her expectations (sole control over my daughter's schooling and doctoring, a big chunk of assets, large support payments). I think that if she knew it would turn out as it has she would not be so quick to leave. Depending on how bad you want to stay married, this approach might be worth a shot.


In England this is generally how it works out. She will get custody and possession is nine tenths of the law. The only way to fight it is in court and the only ones who win are the solicitors leeching off both sides.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Chimp 
It seems to keep coming back to how are you going to respond.

Your happiness seems far down her list of priorities. She is not interested in changing because either she feels 100% confident that you never leave her or she doesn't care if you do. If you have given her good reason to believe that you might move on then you are left with the second alternative.

When faced with a similar situation, I began the process of emotional separation. Create a space for yourself mentally and perhaps even physically. It may not change anything in the short run, but in the longer term when the kids are older you can be ready to move on.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> I don't see how it applies to sex! I can only do what I can do. I can enforce what I can do myself, but I can't make her do stuff. I can only stop her doing things I don'tv want her to do.


You can also stop what you do for her. 

Are your trying to meet all of her needs? If so, and she is not trying to meet you half way, then why not stop making so much effort? Cool your efforts down and see what her reaction is. If she asks, explain that you need to look after yourself, since you feel like your needs are not very important in the relationship.


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## sfj (Jan 15, 2012)

I just read this entire thread and all I can say is ...... WOW. The response I could relate to the most was the one who asked why are you staying with this nutjob (something to that effect). I too think your wife is a selfish *****. I will never understand women who get married, have a kid and then think they have the guy so locked up they can treat him like complete crap and it's okay.

Chimp I have been married 13 years and if I went three DAYS without having sex my husband would take notice. The thing is I love him so even if I don't particularly want sex I still indulge him because he does want it, and imo men in general need it. The operative word is NEED. To me it's no different than if he wanted a back rub, except that with sex I get the benefit too. He is not a selfish lover.

I feel for you I really do. It reminds me of my sister. She treats her husband the same way and has for years. Slowly he has turned into a depressed man with low self esteem afraid to leave because of their son. IMO my sister does not deserve her husband and I don't think your wife deserves you. Leave before you become a shell of a man like my BIL. 

Cut your losses and leave this self centered woman, she isn't going to change. There is life after divorce. 

You deserve so much better. Anyone would.... she is an abusive *****. Oh and by the way the comment about the grandfather and her dad.... all I can say is RUN while you still have some balls left.

Sorry to be so blunt. Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chimp,
This whole concept of assymetry is the basis for your broken marriage. When you want her attention, she gives or doesn't give it based on her inclination at the time. 

When she wants YOUR full attention she gets angry if you don't comply immediately. 

The fact that you have gone along with this reinforces the notion that she is important and you aren't. And you send that message either by:
- immediately giving her your attention or
- apologizing if you didn't






The Chimp said:


> MEM11363,
> 
> There is a lot here. I will try to put my questions or responses in sensible places where hopefully you can follow them and explain if you think it will help.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You will get tired if you "talk" argue. You won't get tired if you limit it to brief but clear body language and then limit your communication with her to kids and schedules until "she" wants to makeup/apologize. Be friendly and polite during the conflict, just limit the interaction to kids and schedules.
This is behavior shaping and she needs a lot of it. She is not going to like this but t is the best path to a balanced marriage.


QUOTE=The Chimp;593656]OK, so I understand the problem. I'm not sure it gives me many more tools, other than wearing her down. I know what to look for, and I suppose I'm not missing too many things I need to sort out

OK up to here
But you have lost me with this bit. Does this mean something important, or is it an acronym I don't understand?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You can also stop what you do for her.
> 
> Are your trying to meet all of her needs? If so, and she is not trying to meet you half way, then why not stop making so much effort? Cool your efforts down and see what her reaction is. If she asks, explain that you need to look after yourself, since you feel like your needs are not very important in the relationship.


I see what you mean, and I see how it's supposed to work. I will try this and see what happens, but I still can't get how it relates to maintaing my boundaries:scratchhead:


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Chimp,
> This whole concept of assymetry is the basis for your broken marriage. When you want her attention, she gives or doesn't give it based on her inclination at the time.
> 
> When she wants YOUR full attention she gets angry if you don't comply immediately.
> ...


I don't always give her attention immediately, not do I apologise if I don't. This is how I know she gets angry 

I have done this for a while and she hasn 't got better about it. I suppose it's one of her non-negotiable boundaries



MEM11363 said:


> You will get tired if you "talk" argue. You won't get tired if you limit it to brief but clear body language and then limit your communication with her to kids and schedules until "she" wants to makeup/apologize. Be friendly and polite during the conflict, just limit the interaction to kids and schedules.
> This is behavior shaping and she needs a lot of it. She is not going to like this


You think? She would probably prefer to clean the toilet with her tongue


> but t is the best path to a balanced marriage.


I'll give this a try. I'll report back in a few days with the results.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chimp,
Good luck. Be friendly and firm at the same time. Firm means that when she is doing stuff to you, that she would not tolerate in reverse, that you briefly point that out. Radiating "anger" is not effective as she doesn't care if you are angry. 

Radiating indifference - that is something else entirely. Most partners react very strongly to indifference as it makes them feel unimportant. 




The Chimp said:


> I don't always give her attention immediately, not do I apologise if I don't. This is how I know she gets angry
> 
> I have done this for a while and she hasn 't got better about it. I suppose it's one of her non-negotiable boundaries
> 
> ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> I see what you mean, and I see how it's supposed to work. I will try this and see what happens, but I still can't get how it relates to maintaing my boundaries:scratchhead:


A fundamental boundary that every one should have is that they are important and have value as a person. Not necessarily the most important, but that their needs matter.

Right now, your needs don't matter to your wife. As MEM notes, it is all about her all the time. By stepping back, you are communicating that (1) her needs are not always the most important and (2) your needs are important as well and that is she won't look after them you will.

She will get upset because it messes up her carefully constructed world (a world that revolves around her). You need to be firm and not back down.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Chimp ~

A really good resource for learning about boundary setting is the following book. I would recommend that you take a look at it:

Amazon.com: Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men (9780979054402): Wayne M. Levine: Books

Best wishes.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your wife used to be sexual and now she is "a lady".

Why was she sexual in the past? There was a specific reason. She either wanted to please you and wanted to get you to marry her, and after that wanted to have children.

Unless she undertands that being sexual in terms of HOW MUCH and HOW you want things to be is a condition for maintaining continuity of her life, she will not change.

But, instead of threatening divorce, all you have to do is make sure you are giving her a great life, and then telling her what and how she needs to fulfill your needs.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Hicks said:


> But, instead of threatening divorce, all you have to do is make sure you are giving her a great life, and then telling her what and how she needs to fulfill your needs.


As far as I know, I am giving her a great life - I am already bending over backwards to give her what she wants, and she is not slow to tell me what she wants me to do / be / give.. I have told her what I need and how she can provide it, but apparently "ladies don't". I have tried this approach for quite a long time and it does not work at all.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> As far as I know, I am giving her a great life - I am already bending over backwards to give her what she wants, and she is not slow to tell me what she wants me to do / be / give.. I have told her what I need and how she can provide it, but apparently "ladies don't". I have tried this approach for quite a long time and it does not work at all.


Because she has no reason to change. You are operating from the assumption that you wife wants to please you and, upon finding out that something makes you unhappy, will work to change her behavior. That is, after all, what normal healthy married people do.

Unfortunately for you, that is not where your wife is at. She thinks everything revolves around her. She may hear your words, but she is really listening to your actions - the actions that say that you can't be all that unhappy because you are still doing everything for her. Because of that, she sees no reason to change.

That is the power in backing off what you do to her. It makes your actions (I am not happy so I will stop doing as much for you) and your words (I am not happy and something needs to change) consistent. It will add power to your words, as she sees that something in fact has changed. She will need to react.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Because she has no reason to change. You are operating from the assumption that you wife wants to please you and, upon finding out that something makes you unhappy, will work to change her behavior. That is, after all, what normal healthy married people do.
> 
> Unfortunately for you, that is not where your wife is at. She thinks everything revolves around her. She may hear your words, but she is really listening to your actions - the actions that say that you can't be all that unhappy because you are still doing everything for her. Because of that, she sees no reason to change.
> 
> That is the power in backing off what you do to her. It makes your actions (I am not happy so I will stop doing as much for you) and your words (I am not happy and something needs to change) consistent. It will add power to your words, as she sees that something in fact has changed. She will need to react.


T.A.G., I got all of what you said before, but thanks for saying it again anyway. I was asking Hicks why it was he thought that doing exactly what he said (what I have been doing) would make her change. If he was being sarcastic or ironic it went over my head


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> A fundamental boundary that every one should have is that they are important and have value as a person. Not necessarily the most important, but that their needs matter.
> 
> Right now, your needs don't matter to your wife. As MEM notes, it is all about her all the time. By stepping back, you are communicating that (1) her needs are not always the most important and (2) your needs are important as well and that is she won't look after them you will.
> 
> She will get upset because it messes up her carefully constructed world (a world that revolves around her). You need to be firm and not back down.


Over the last few days I have picked her up on things what she does to me that I don't like. I have mostly been doing this by saying something like:

"If I did that to you, you would not put up with it, and would get really upset. Why is it allright for you to do it to me?" I am being calm and freindly and not getting aerated when I do this.

She hasn't got angry. When I do this she looks sort of confused and says "because I'm a lady", as if it all makes sense then. I have asked her to explain, but she looks at me like I have asked her which way is upwards.:scratchhead:


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your wife was not a lady when it was important to get you to marry her. If you are giving her a great life, what you have to do is get her to admit whether she believes marriages are supposed to be sexual relationships. If she admits this, then you then have to get her to admit whether she has any obligation to meet your most important emotional needs if she admits that you are meeting hers. Lastly, when it comes to having her needs met, she expects you to meet them in a certain way, with a certain attidue, and that is what you expect.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Your wife was not a lady when it was important to get you to marry her. If you are giving her a great life, what you have to do is get her to admit whether she believes marriages are supposed to be sexual relationships. If she admits this, then you then have to get her to admit whether she has any obligation to meet your most important emotional needs if she admits that you are meeting hers. Lastly, when it comes to having her needs met, she expects you to meet them in a certain way, with a certain attidue, and that is what you expect.


Hicks, I am sure that she would say that because we have sex once or twice a month, we are in a sexual relationship, and she is meeting my needs. The how and the what are secondary to her being a "lady". I will need to understand that "ladies" don't do certain things (e.g. oral either way, hands, doggy e.t.c.) but that we *are* sexual and my needs should be met by this.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> Over the last few days I have picked her up on things what she does to me that I don't like. I have mostly been doing this by saying something like:
> 
> "If I did that to you, you would not put up with it, and would get really upset. Why is it allright for you to do it to me?" I am being calm and freindly and not getting aerated when I do this.
> 
> She hasn't got angry. When I do this she looks sort of confused and says "because I'm a lady", as if it all makes sense then. I have asked her to explain, but she looks at me like I have asked her which way is upwards.:scratchhead:


So she has no reason. I would tell her that, and make clear that her being a "lady" is a nonsense answer to your questions.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> Hicks, I am sure that she would say that because we have sex once or twice a month, we are in a sexual relationship, and she is meeting my needs. The how and the what are secondary to her being a "lady". I will need to understand that "ladies" don't do certain things (e.g. oral either way, hands, doggy e.t.c.) but that we *are* sexual and my needs should be met by this.


She doesn't get to pick how you need your needs met. Just as you don't get to pick how she needs her needs met. This is the conversation you are not having. All women will have a very good reason for not being sexual. What you have to do is give her the reason to be sexual. The reason you give her is you do what it takes to be a good husband to her, and you expect her to do what it takes to be a good wife.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Hicks said:


> She doesn't get to pick how you need your needs met. Just as you don't get to pick how she needs her needs met. This is the conversation you are not having. All women will have a very good reason for not being sexual. What you have to do is give her the reason to be sexual. The reason you give her is you do what it takes to be a good husband to her, and you expect her to do what it takes to be a good wife.


Unless I'm very mistaken, this is a "I'm right you're wrong" "No, I'M right YOU'RE wrong" discussion (argument). You won't get the other person to change by logic or reason or because its fair or nothing like that. 

I think T.A.G. and MEM11363 have got it right.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

YOu can define your marriage any way you want to.

All wives who deny their own sexuality have reasons that they can clearly state and that are not solvable by the husband. "I have body issues", "I was abused", "I have a headache". Your particular cross to bear is "It's not ladylike"..

You could either buy into your wife's excuse, or realize that this is a test where she is waiting for you to make necessary to unleash her sexuality.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Hicks said:


> YOu can define your marriage any way you want to.
> 
> All wives who deny their own sexuality have reasons that they can clearly state and that are not solvable by the husband. "I have body issues", "I was abused", "I have a headache". Your particular cross to bear is "It's not ladylike"..



I partially agree. I think a loving and concerned husband is very helpful in dealing with these sexual problems. What will never work is the husband attempting to work on these issues, while the wife simply doesn't care or even see them as problems.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Hicks said:


> YOu can define your marriage any way you want to.
> 
> All wives who deny their own sexuality have reasons that they can clearly state and that are not solvable by the husband. "I have body issues", "I was abused", "I have a headache". Your particular cross to bear is "It's not ladylike"..
> 
> You could either buy into your wife's excuse,


I do not buy into the excuse. I know it's an excuse, since I reckon "I'm a lady" might actually be spelt "I can't be bothered".



> or realize that this is a test


If it's a test, I think she's making the rules and results up as she goes along!


> where she is waiting for you to make necessary to unleash her sexuality.


I don't understand this last bit. I don't understand how I "make necessary"


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Chimp,
> Good luck. Be friendly and firm at the same time. Firm means that when she is doing stuff to you, that she would not tolerate in reverse, that you briefly point that out. Radiating "anger" is not effective as she doesn't care if you are angry.
> 
> Radiating indifference - that is something else entirely. Most partners react very strongly to indifference as it makes them feel unimportant.


I have been told tonight that indifference is "rude" and that as a lady she "expects to be treated politely".

I said "Oh, right" and went back to what I had been doing.

She's still fizzing in the next room.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Chimp ~

You have too many pages here for me to go back over all of it, but in reading your first post in the thread you state that she yelps and tells you not to creep up on her if you come up from behind and try and touch her.

Has she always been like this? What is her background/history? Does she have any sexual abuse in her background?

She is using her "lady-ness" as a very effective shield to protect herself. There has to be a *reason* why. What is that reason, I wonder?


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi Chimp ~
> 
> You have too many pages here for me to go back over all of it, but in reading your first post in the thread you state that she yelps and tells you not to creep up on her if you come up from behind and try and touch her.
> 
> Has she always been like this? What is her background/history? Does she have any sexual abuse in her background?


No she has not always been like this. She has got progressively worse over the last four or five years. This did not really coincide with anything as far as I can tell. She is a "normal" Londoner (if there is such a thing LOL), with a background that is pretty working class, no big religion or nothing like that. AS far as sex abuse - she has said no. It has come up in conversation, like when it gets mentioned on the news, and she has said stuff like "At least I've never had anything like that happen" or some such.


> She is using her "lady-ness" as a very effective shield to protect herself. There has to be a *reason* why. What is that reason, I wonder?


Yes, it is very effective. As of the reasons I can think of a few.

She is done with sex now we have the kids and I've been snipped.

She can't be bothered because she has a good life but doesn't care about me except as a provider.

She wants to re-invent herself as a posh lady and that posh ladies don't have sex, especially with bits of rough like me.

Dunno.

Thanks for your input. Anything else you can add will be nice to hear.

Chimpy


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The Chimp said:


> I do not buy into the excuse. I know it's an excuse, since I reckon "I'm a lady" might actually be spelt "I can't be bothered".
> 
> 
> If it's a test, I think she's making the rules and results up as she goes along!
> I don't understand this last bit. I don't understand how I "make necessary"


She doesnt currently understand that the life she leads, the family she has, her home, her financial security, her daily happiness has any connection to your sexual fulflimment.


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## The Chimp (Feb 14, 2012)

Hicks said:


> She doesnt currently understand that the life she leads, the family she has, her home, her financial security, her daily happiness has any connection to your sexual fulflimment.


You're right. Well, either see doesn't see a connection, or she doesn't think there should be /needs to be a connection. I reckon she doesn't want there to be a connection, because that's how she thinks "ladies" and "gentlemen" are.


But I still don't get what "make necessary" means?


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