# Desperate



## Mark72

Hi. 
I've been married for 7.5 years. We've had ups and downs. We are both pretty stubborn. I have a porn addiction. 3 years ago she kicked me out because of it. It was while she was staying in the hospital with complications prior to the birth of our son. Yeah. 

I was out for about 2 weeks. It wasn't until after he was born a month later that we started to rekindle. It was really never the same. I was trying to make it a contest. She is kinda bossy, and I wanted to make sure I was the boss. It didn't work. I also tried to bring the porn into the bedroom. Not literally, at first. But I wanted her to do more and more weird things. A few weeks ago, I dropped a hint that I wanted her to watch porn also. It didn't go over too well. I stopped using it but I was looking for an excuse. Not the model Christian I should have been. I talked a good talk but that's it. 
I have also been using sales tactics to manipulate her. She's heard enough pitches to be immune. 
Anyway, we got into an argument that lasted a week. Finally I gave her an ultimatum. Support me in my medical time of need, or stay with your parents for a few days. She protested, but I pushed and pushed and pushed. She left. That was Saturday. 
Now, she wants a divorce and is relentless to get it done now. I don't want one. 
I took a look at everything and with the time alone, time to reflect, I see where I went wrong. I didn't put her before me, and I didn't put God in the center of our marriage. I know this isn't a Christian site, but these are my values, even if I forgot them for a while. She fell in love with me, but fell back out. 

She's been sending me very nasty texts out of anger. I know they are angry. But they are really hurtful and it's tough to take. I know this is mostly my fault, and I only skimmed the surface of the issues, but I included the major stuff. Both of us have issues but I should have been a different man.
Really hoping for a reconciliation, but not until I have made some changes in me.


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## Toffer

So stop posting and get in counceling now!

Your actions are what will speak volumes to her, not your words

Hopefully it won't be too late for her.


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## Mark72

Toffer said:


> So stop posting and get in counceling now!
> 
> Your actions are what will speak volumes to her, not your words
> 
> Hopefully it won't be too late for her.


I did. With my pastor. She will not go


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## Mark72

Even though there was no adultry, I am going to take the 180 approach. At the same time, bettering myself for me and my God. If she doesn't come back, I will still be a better man. If she does, she will have a man that she is proud to call a husband. It's a win win for both of us.


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## Mark72

Mark72 said:


> Even though there was no adultry, I am going to take the 180 approach. At the same time, bettering myself for me and my God. If she doesn't come back, I will still be a better man. If she does, she will have a man that she is proud to call a husband. It's a win win for both of us.


180 approach didn't happen... imagine that.
She has opened up a tiny bit to me though. Not so much venom, just fear that any changes I go through are temporary.


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## Mark72

This is so tough. I get some signs of hope, then back to nothing. I am really having a bad time with this.


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## muriel12

That's when you have to do 180 and stick to it. You may still respond to her back but not immediately. You'll also need to make sure that you show her that you want to be with her but you are also fine without her.


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## LastUnicorn

Sounds like the wife did a 180 on you, lol. Hows that working for ya? You can't take a list of tips on being a man and throw them at a marriage and expect it to work. Especially from what you posted you weren't being a man or a nice guy, but a bully. You gave her an ultimatium. She chose door #2. Now you are upset you didn't get your way. 

Is her being 'bossy' more 'struggling to stay above water with you and your desires you place above her'? Tough question nobody but you can answer.

Try reading some other books. Try asking her what her needs and desires are. Stop trying to win personally and focus on winning at your marriage, that's the best start IMHO.


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## Mark72

LastUnicorn said:


> Sounds like the wife did a 180 on you, lol. Hows that working for ya? You can't take a list of tips on being a man and throw them at a marriage and expect it to work. Especially from what you posted you weren't being a man or a nice guy, but a bully. You gave her an ultimatium. She chose door #2. Now you are upset you didn't get your way.
> 
> Is her being 'bossy' more 'struggling to stay above water with you and your desires you place above her'? Tough question nobody but you can answer.
> 
> Try reading some other books. Try asking her what her needs and desires are. Stop trying to win personally and focus on winning at your marriage, that's the best start IMHO.


Her family warned me that she is bossy before we ever got married. Over the past year, she took steps to get better. Not perfect, but better. I stayed in the rut. I kept trying to compete. The ultimatum was one of the straws that broke the camel's back.
She said this is the 4th time and I told her last time I would change. This is the 2nd time we've separated. The 1st time was when I went back to porn. Deep. It wasn't pretty. I know what I did to her.
But even when I stopped watching, I tried to recreate it in the bedroom. Some things she liked, others she didnt. A few weeks ago I "hinted" that I would like it if she started watching. She didn't take it too well. 
We have both been under a lot of stress. She miscarried in January. We just found out that I have heart blockage and need a bypass. We both work full time. We both go to school. We have 2 young children. 

The 180 is tough sometimes because I go to her parents' house to see the kids. She is always there. I put on a happy face, but it's really tough.


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## Cherry

Mark72 said:


> Hi.
> I've been married for 7.5 years. We've had ups and downs. We are both pretty stubborn. I have a porn addiction. 3 years ago she kicked me out because of it. It was while she was staying in the hospital with complications prior to the birth of our son. Yeah.
> 
> I was out for about 2 weeks. It wasn't until after he was born a month later that we started to rekindle. It was really never the same. I was trying to make it a contest. She is kinda bossy, and I wanted to make sure I was the boss. It didn't work. I also tried to bring the porn into the bedroom. Not literally, at first. But I wanted her to do more and more weird things. A few weeks ago, I dropped a hint that I wanted her to watch porn also. It didn't go over too well. I stopped using it but I was looking for an excuse. Not the model Christian I should have been. I talked a good talk but that's it.
> I have also been using sales tactics to manipulate her. She's heard enough pitches to be immune.
> Anyway, we got into an argument that lasted a week. Finally I gave her an ultimatum. Support me in my medical time of need, or stay with your parents for a few days. She protested, but I pushed and pushed and pushed. She left. That was Saturday.
> Now, she wants a divorce and is relentless to get it done now. I don't want one.
> I took a look at everything and with the time alone, time to reflect, I see where I went wrong. I didn't put her before me, and I didn't put God in the center of our marriage. I know this isn't a Christian site, but these are my values, even if I forgot them for a while. She fell in love with me, but fell back out.
> 
> She's been sending me very nasty texts out of anger. I know they are angry. But they are really hurtful and it's tough to take. I know this is mostly my fault, and I only skimmed the surface of the issues, but I included the major stuff. Both of us have issues but I should have been a different man.
> Really hoping for a reconciliation, but not until I have made some changes in me.


I'm confused, you gave her an ultimatum to support you in your "medical" time of need or get out? What was your medical time of need?


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## Mark72

Cherry said:


> I'm confused, you gave her an ultimatum to support you in your "medical" time of need or get out? What was your medical time of need?


Heart bypass surgery


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## Cherry

Mark72 said:


> Heart bypass surgery


I'm sorry I missed that. Hope you're recovering well.


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## Mark72

Cherry said:


> I'm sorry I missed that. Hope you're recovering well.


Not happening for another week and a half.

This is tough to go through, I know I did this to myself. I know I can't say anything to get her back. I just have to make the changes in myself, be the man that my family deserves, even if she doesn't come back. I still need to be that man. I call myself a Christian but don't act like it.


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## Mark72

I am making changes in my life. I have to focus on that. I keep telling myself that I will deal with our reconciliation later. But I cannot do that. I need to take an active part in this. I am doing some 180 things, but I still feel overwhelming pain and anxiety when I am at her place playing with the kids. Got a smile on, got a few jokes, active with my children, but inside I am a jumble of knots. It's not really any better. SHe has been cordial to me the past 2 days. And she has done a few nice things for me. No talk of changing her mind on filing for divorce next month. No talk of MC. I seriously think that all the damage can be fixed. Even I can be fixed. Just hate the way this feels now.


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## SkyHigh

Hang tough, my man. It's even harder when children are present.


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## Mark72

SkyHigh said:


> Hang tough, my man. It's even harder when children are present.


Well, because of my heart condition everyone feels it is best that I see them at her parents' house. She is always there. I appreciate being able to vent in here and have people listen. Thank you


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## Mark72

Still get daily texts out of the blue telling me how much she wants a divorce.


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## SkyHigh

Don't feed into them. Is this what you really want? Are you sure?

One thing I learned the hard way is that there's nothing but absolute negatives being spoken for awhile. Don't let them get to you.


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## Mark72

SkyHigh said:


> Don't feed into them. Is this what you really want? Are you sure?
> 
> One thing I learned the hard way is that there's nothing but absolute negatives being spoken for awhile. Don't let them get to you.


I don't want a divorce. From my perspective, there is nothing irreparable about our marriage. I am just trusting God to see us through this. But I want to have the foundations laid for a permenant change in my life while she is gone.


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## SkyHigh

Then start with yourself. She may or may not follow. Keep strong. Keep your faith. Pray.

In the end, you are a better person.


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## Mark72

SkyHigh said:


> Then start with yourself. She may or may not follow. Keep strong. Keep your faith. Pray.
> 
> In the end, you are a better person.


When we split before, my main motivation was getting her back.
Not this time. My main motivation is serving Christ. 
My 2nd priority is restoration...


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## Mark72

All I want to do is stay in bed and cry like a baby. But, I get up, I pray, I work, I go to see the kids (at her parents' house, with her there) and I put on a sunny face. Then I come home and collapse. Yes, I cry like a baby too...
It's only been 2 weeks, but it seems like an eternity. It helps to come here and vent sometimes though.


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## kindi

Mark72 said:


> I don't want a divorce. From my perspective, there is nothing irreparable about our marriage. I am just trusting God to see us through this. But I want to have the foundations laid for a permenant change in my life while she is gone.


Unfortunately it's not up to you or to God, it's up to her.

Sounds like she's gone and all the praying and serving of Christ isn't going to change her mind.

Truth is, if she wants out, and you love this woman, then give her what she wants. For perhaps the first time in your marriage, do what SHE wants. 

Even if it means losing her.


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## Mark72

kindi said:


> Unfortunately it's not up to you or to God, it's up to her.
> 
> Sounds like she's gone and all the praying and serving of Christ isn't going to change her mind.
> 
> Truth is, if she wants out, and you love this woman, then give her what she wants. For perhaps the first time in your marriage, do what SHE wants.
> 
> Even if it means losing her.


What does God want? That's most important.


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## Emerald

Sometimes addictions are dealbreakers.

Have you kicked your porn addiction?


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## Mark72

Emerald said:


> Sometimes addictions are dealbreakers.
> 
> Have you kicked your porn addiction?


There is no "cure" for addiction, but I am not a slave to it. It's something I have to decide not to go to it every day. Have I fallen into it? not in a long time.


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## Mark72

Last night she text me and asked me why I gave her a dirty look. Then she asked if I wanted someone else (other than her) to take me to my surgery. I told her if she doesn't want to take me, she doesn't have to. She said I am not showing her any gratitude for taking the day off and finding someone to replace her. I told her thank you. She said she is sick of these crappy conversations, and we should go see our pastor (as a divorce mediator) asap. I told her that I have tried to have other conversations with her, but she always gets hateful. I'd talk to her but she doesn't want to talk. SHe replied that she gets hateful because she doesn't like who I became and doesn't like what she became when she was around me. I told her then after the surgery let's set an appointment to see the pastor.
Now, I don't think the pastor is going to condone divorce or play that role. 

Any thoughts on my replies? I wanted to start telling her that I've changed... blah blah blah - you know, the empty words that she has heard before... but I'd rather let her SEE a change in me. Because if I am only changing to get her back, it won't last very long. I want to be a better man with or without her, but I prefer with. One other note... I was at their house yesterday. I was playing with the kids outside. My 5 year old daughter picked a dandelion and blew the seeds in the wind. She gave me one and told me to blow it and make a wish. I did. She told me that she wished for us to be a family again. How do I look that precious little girl in the eyes and tell her that mommy doesn't want that wish? I know what divorce does to kids. My dad has had 3 wives. My mom had 4 husbands. I was only 4 months old when my parents divorced. I know it brings out the worst in people, and the kids definitely don't want it. I don't want it. God doesn't want it. The only person that really wants it is my wife, even though her sister and friends just want her to be happy. Her family doesn't want it. But unless she changes her mind and agrees to MC, I can do nothing about it. Either way, I am making changes for me.


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## kindi

Remember when I said this?



kindi said:


> Unfortunately it's not up to you or to God, it's up to her.


You said it's all about what God wants. 

Now look what you wrote.



Mark72 said:


> the kids definitely don't want it. I don't want it. God doesn't want it. The only person that really wants it is my wife


I hate being right all the time.

She really wants it. 

There's nothing you can do except accept and move on.


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## Mark72

kindi said:


> Remember when I said this?
> 
> 
> 
> You said it's all about what God wants.
> 
> Now look what you wrote.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate being right all the time.
> 
> She really wants it.
> 
> There's nothing you can do except accept and move on.


Actually I asked what does God want?
There are things that can be done about it...
Yes, the choice is hers. Yes we are creatures of free will. I am making changes in my life whether she comes back to me or not. But I am not going to run to get a quick divorce just because she said she wants it right now.


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## Mark72

Well, the heart surgery is done. I'm back home recovering. It's been a roller coaster. She took me to the surgery. It was not a pleasant trip, but it wasn't horrible. She was cold but cordial. After the surgery in ICU, she was there by my side. She held my hand and asked how I was doing. She had a different look in her eyes. My aunt wasn't too nice to her so she got upset about that. My dad and other aunt were friendly with her. My dad hugged her and said she is his daughter. I don't really remember most of that day as I was pretty drugged up. 

The next day, Wednesday, she came to see me. Back to cold but cordial. She didn't come on Thursday. Friday, she took me to her parent's house. It was pretty rough. I decided on Saturday morning while she was out to ask her parents to take me home. (Her parents are wonderful and are supportive of reconciliation)

There was a bit of a change. She offered to come get me that night and I could stay there. We talked. I didn't beg or anything, nothing like that to look pathetic, but I told her I would like that. It was getting late so we decided to wait until Sunday. She picked me up that morning for church. Her parents sat between us. She was still a little cold. 
Her dad took me home to rest while they had some other family members over. She came to pick me up a few hours later. We went to the store and got an air mattress for me to sleep on. After a couple hours there, she warmed up. She smiled at me. She was pleasant. It was a good day. We set up the air mattress in her room. SHe asked if I wanted to go upstairs and watch a movie with her. It was "Pride and Prejudice", a chick flick that I have no interest in watching. I happily accepted. We didn't really talk a lot, and when we did, it was pleasant. We didn't talk about the future or anything like that. I did say that it was a good day and I think it's good to take things one day at a time.
She took me home the next morning. SHe called from work to see if I would set up a meeting with the pastor for our MC. (She had agreed to ONE session of MC with the pastor before the surgery, but we couldn't get it scheduled). I was really happy about it.

I was to go over there at about 6:30 to see the kids. This is Monday... SHe called at 2:30 to see if I wanted her to pick me up so we could get the kids from the new daycare together and give me more time with them. I accepted. After we got the kids, she went back to cold. She said that she doesn't want to be nice anymore because it seems to be giving me false hope for a future. She said she doesn't want to grow old with me and doesn't want us raising the kids together. She wants to move on and get this over with. She doesn't want to find anyone else, she just wants to move on. It was a long painful 15 minute ride home. I didn't cry or beg, I just said ok. 
The next day, the texts start up - that I just need to accept that we are done and only going to be friends. After 2 texts, she called. I didn't answer. After the 2 texts and the calls, I text her back that I don't feel like talking right now. When she got off work, she blew up my phone calling over and over. I finally answered and said I don't want to talk. She was furious about it. She really started digging to try to hurt me. I kept saying that I don't want to talk. She finally hung up. She started texting again. I told her I will talk to her Saturday (at MC with the pastor). She said something about not wanting to see the kids, and being selfish for not talking to her. The 4th or 5th text later, she said that my non-response was just confirmation of how selfish I am and only accomplishing a non-friendship after divorce. I text her back that said all she does is tell me how horrible I am and how much she hates me and I don't want to listed to it. She responded that she doesn't hate me but I need to give her the divorce.

That was the last communication with her.

Now her parents have been helping me out. I'm still not allowed to drive, her dad talks to me (he was a pastor for 20 years and is a great man) Her mom has a heart of gold and really wants us to get back together. It makes my wife so mad that they still talk to me and treat me like I am their son-in-law still.

She is the only one that wants a divorce. I don't. The kids don't. Her family doesn't. My family doesn't. I hate not seeing my kids, but we have not really been "separated" since she moved out a month ago.


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## Mark72

Any feedback is appreciated!


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## Mark72

A


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## Mr Blunt

> *Quotes of Mark*When we split before, my main motivation was getting her back.
> Not this time. My main motivation is serving Christ.
> My 2nd priority is restoration...
> 
> What does God want? That's most important.
> 
> But unless she changes her mind and agrees to MC, I can do nothing about it. Either way, I am making changes for me.
> 
> Yes, the choice is hers. Yes we are creatures of free will. I am making changes in my life whether she comes back to me or not.


Mark

If you mean what you wrote above and stick with it no matter what, then I think you have a great chance at a very good life. *Your actions in the next months and years will determine your outcome. *

If your wife takes her Christianity seriously then after a certain amount of time she will know hat God wants. *God is very fond of grace and forgiveness.* Just look at the actions God took to prove that!

Surround yourself with all the encouragement you can get from your faith

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. Isaiah 41:10

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight. 
Proverbs 3:5-6


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## Mark72

Mr Blunt said:


> Mark
> 
> If you mean what you wrote above and stick with it no matter what, then I think you have a great chance at a very good life. *Your actions in the next months and years will determine your outcome. *
> 
> If your wife takes her Christianity seriously then after a certain amount of time she will know hat God wants. *God is very fond of grace and forgiveness.* Just look at the actions God took to prove that!
> 
> Surround yourself with all the encouragement you can get from your faith
> 
> Hebrews 11:6
> But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
> 
> Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. Isaiah 41:10
> 
> Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight.
> Proverbs 3:5-6


We started MC last week. 1st session was promising. It was with our pastor and his wife. 2nd session is next Monday.
Thank you for the encouragement. So much is going on right now! I appreciate it!


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## Mark72

Getting to the point now where I am going to have to make a choice on putting the house up for sale or not. I can't afford it on my own. In this market it's worth 80% of what I owe. It's also a condo, so it won't sell quickly. 
We are in MC and there is some hope of R, but the time frame we are looking at now doesn't allow for me to keep the house in the mean time.


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## Mark72

Well, things were going better until yesterday. Had a setback. My old self came back. The pitiful bitter sulking Mark was there. She was snippy, I snapped back, and all the positives over the past few weeks were lost and back to "I want this to be over" and "I'm not going to MC". 
When I'm alone at home, I still cry. It's been since July 14th that she left. It's tough to go out because I don't have the money for gas and to keep up the bills. It's tough to hang with friends because I am always sad. I try to be upbeat but I can't act for a long time. I don't find pleasure in the things I used to like to do. I dusted myself off and went for a good walk today, since the doctor told me I can't do any real exercise only 2 1/2 weeks after the bypass surgery. But I went for a walk an d felt a little better. Then I got a nasty text from her and I went back to tears again.
I know I am a pathetic excuse for a man. I'd like to wave a magic wand and make the changes in me instant, but I can't. I am relearning everything all over again.

I just hate feeling like this. I hate going into the kids rooms and seeing them empty and sobbing like a baby. I can usually put on the strong front when I'm in front of her (yesterday excluded) but when I get home all I can do is break down.


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## Mark72

Well, to my surprise, W showed up to MC today, even though she assured me that she wouldn't be there.

No R right now, but she is open and willing to take the steps we both need to take. 

I need to continue on the path of self-improvement I am on, and not go back to the man that she started to hate.
I also need to resist the urge to reach out too fast and lose all the momentum we gained today.

I cried true tears of joy for the first time in my life when I pulled into the church and she was there.


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## Mark72

Geez this thing is a freakin roller coaster ride. Up and down... I keep moving forward, she keeps waivering back and forth. I read No More Mr Nice Guy. It scared the hell out of me because it's like a biography of me. 

It is tough to know WHEN and HOW to set boundaries when I've never really done it before. Just more and more of myself that I didn't really see that came to light over the past 6 weeks. 

Kinda hard to take all at once like this. But I am still moving forward.


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## This is me

You sound to be on the right path. Manning up will make a world of difference. I can tell you my turning point which got her attention was when I accepted that I might have to move on.

She left me for 4 months but agreed to MC and IC. After the 3rd month of limboland and mixed signals of how committed she was to the process, I told her we were either taking steps with her moving back on the weekends to full R or we need to divorce and divide the assets so I can move on with my life.

She took the first choice with a little resistance. Now back 5 months and steadily keeps getting better. 

Patience is the key. 

Best wishes to you.


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## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> Well, things were going better until yesterday. Had a setback. My old self came back. The pitiful bitter sulking Mark was there. She was snippy, I snapped back, and all the positives over the past few weeks were lost and back to "I want this to be over" and "I'm not going to MC".
> When I'm alone at home, I still cry. It's been since July 14th that she left. It's tough to go out because I don't have the money for gas and to keep up the bills. It's tough to hang with friends because I am always sad. I try to be upbeat but I can't act for a long time. I don't find pleasure in the things I used to like to do. I dusted myself off and went for a good walk today, since the doctor told me I can't do any real exercise only 2 1/2 weeks after the bypass surgery. But I went for a walk an d felt a little better. Then I got a nasty text from her and I went back to tears again.
> I know I am a pathetic excuse for a man. I'd like to wave a magic wand and make the changes in me instant, but I can't. I am relearning everything all over again.
> 
> I just hate feeling like this. I hate going into the kids rooms and seeing them empty and sobbing like a baby. I can usually put on the strong front when I'm in front of her (yesterday excluded) but when I get home all I can do is break down.



You are not perfect and should not even expect to be. No matter what happens between the two of you, you will screw up, make mistakes etc till the day you die. So don't feel like you have to be someone you are not. Sounds like your focus is on her more than God. If it is in his plan, you will end up back together. Just focus on you and keep praying.


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## Mark72

This is me said:


> You sound to be on the right path. Manning up will make a world of difference. I can tell you my turning point which got her attention was when I accepted that I might have to move on.
> 
> She left me for 4 months but agreed to MC and IC. After the 3rd month of limboland and mixed signals of how committed she was to the process, I told her we were either taking steps with her moving back on the weekends to full R or we need to divorce and divide the assets so I can move on with my life.
> 
> She took the first choice with a little resistance. Now back 5 months and steadily keeps getting better.
> 
> Patience is the key.
> 
> Best wishes to you.


Thanks for the reply... I am looking at the scales - one side she was there for me during my surgery, and she has gone to 2 MC sessions (after she said no way) She also backed off emminant divorce and is now at "likely" divorce.

On the other side, she has been hateful when she talks to me. I stopped telling her I love her all the time... the other night as I was leaving to go home I said it... kinda slipped out. She gave me a disgusted look.

She is talking about a 6 month probation period. Meanwhile, I am not able to afford the house. She instantly said "Sell it"... I explained the implications of a short sale, she was pretty closed.
She is running and quitting on the house and the marriage right now. There is a lot of stress that we have gone through this year that just adds to it. I can only deal with what I can change. That's me and my attitutes/actions.


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## Mark72

MSC71 said:


> You are not perfect and should not even expect to be. No matter what happens between the two of you, you will screw up, make mistakes etc till the day you die. So don't feel like you have to be someone you are not. Sounds like your focus is on her more than God. If it is in his plan, you will end up back together. Just focus on you and keep praying.


I know I won't be perfect. THe pain is just getting old!


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## BeYou

Hang in there Mark. The situation with my W has been up and down too. Me pursuing resulting in her pulling away. When I stopped, there was a fews days/week where she started pursuing me and inviting me to things. I got impatient that things weren't moving steadily forward, and started "us" talk again, which at one point resulted in a big fight because I wouldn't just walk away. And that has set us back to 0 again...and pushed her closer to another guy. That was a week ago and things haven't been the same since. We only talk about our son now. No more coffee breaks, invites, or hanging out. Now I wish I was back in last week and kept my patience.

But it's move on time for me. I think you must do this as well. That doesn't mean you have to give up on your marriage. It just means you have to step back from trying to fix it right now, and fix yourself first. That's the only thing you can control right now. Her anger and resentment will not let even an ounce of your pleading get to her heart. It will only backfire.

So back off a bit, do good for yourself, and be friendly with her when you do have contact. But just friendly. Friendly and happy as if you were just meeting her again for the first time. I was doing this and that is what lead my W to start inviting me to things. It didn't mean she was wanting to get back together...but she was setting aside the anger and having conversations and enjoying talking to each other which is obviously a huge positive step. The key is to not get impatient when that happens, which is very hard to do.

If she is being cordial now, just keep it up. Don't set expectations for how you think she SHOULD react to you...because they will NOT be met, and you will react to that.

Understand, that she is not going to just change her mind in a day because you smiled for a few hours. It took her a long time worth of inaction to get her to this point, it's going to take a long time of your action for her to let the anger subside and start seeing you in an emotionally neutral way. And right now she's just itching for you to make a mistake so she can prove herself right. So try not to, but don't give up if you do.


----------



## Mark72

Things have taken a turn for the better. We are getting along pretty well, and the talk of D is over, the R hasn't happened yet but it is happening. Yeah, the pace is a little slow for me, but she is opening up quite a bit. I am going to IC tomorrow, and we are going to MC on Thursday, same psychologist - recommended by our pastor. Still not holding hands, telling me she loves me, etc. But she is showing an interest in seeing me. I am in the "friend zone" right now but it doesn't look permanent. 

I put the house on the market, and it is painful to pack up boxes. Even though all signs point to R, it looks like our home is going. My son doesn't know any other place, my daughter probably doesn't remember any other place. Now, they know her parents' house as "home". 
I think that if we come back stronger than before, and the MC and IC impact us like I hope it does, I can live in a basement or a box with my family as long as we are together.


----------



## Mark72

Well, yesterday hit me like a ton of bricks. After a week and a half of things looking up, something triggered the anger and fear in her again. She went back to ice cold, "I dont feel anything for you". 

The counselor also didn't help things much. He talked more about himself than us


----------



## This is me

It is a roller coaster. Patience is the key. If you can keep your focus on yourself and bettering yourself, you can't lose. Hard to believe but true. You can't control her, so whether it works or doesn't you will be in a better place.

You can always change counselors. Our first one never felt right and actually did more damage than help. In hindsight he had internal issue of his own and brought them into our sessions.

Our second one was much better, grounded and we both liked, which is very important.


----------



## Mark72

This is me said:


> It is a roller coaster. Patience is the key. If you can keep your focus on yourself and bettering yourself, you can't lose. Hard to believe but true. You can't control her, so whether it works or doesn't you will be in a better place.
> 
> You can always change counselors. Our first one never felt right and actually did more damage than help. In hindsight he had internal issue of his own and brought them into our sessions.
> 
> Our second one was much better, grounded and we both liked, which is very important.


Yeah, I am still focused on that. I went up and talked to her after I put the kids to bed. SHe started the conversation with, "How do I know these changes you've made are real? How do I know you won't go back to the same old Mark?"

I had to answer. It was a 10 minute pure, honest, emotional response. She heard it. All she said was "I've heard this all before." I responded that she hasn't... I aknowledged that I gave her a speech last time we separated just to get her back, but I am becomming a better man for me. Then I left.


----------



## This is me

I think it is good that you left her with the changes to be better are for you. 

You know the thing is, she needs to change too. My Wife was over with me, saw no hope, wanted me to change, and in hindsight, I needed to change, but she did too. Dare I say maybe she needed to change more?

Time will tell in any relationship, and all you can do is be the best you with or without her. Let her see the best you is all you can do.

All the best to you!!!


----------



## Mark72

This is me said:


> I think it is good that you left her with the changes to be better are for you.
> 
> You know the thing is, she needs to change too. My Wife was over with me, saw no hope, wanted me to change, and in hindsight, I needed to change, but she did too. Dare I say maybe she needed to change more?
> 
> Time will tell in any relationship, and all you can do is be the best you with or without her. Let her see the best you is all you can do.
> 
> All the best to you!!!


She knows there are changes on both sides. I can only work on mine. Thanks for replying! Helps a bit with the nerves to talk about it.


----------



## Mark72

Wow this rollercoaster hurts.


----------



## This is me

Mark72 said:


> Wow this rollercoaster hurts.


I hear ya! I think of how low I got during the period when she left and put us in limboland. Wow it was painful!

Hang in there. There are better days ahead. Trust me.

I wish you well!


----------



## Mark72

This is me said:


> I hear ya! I think of how low I got during the period when she left and put us in limboland. Wow it was painful!
> 
> Hang in there. There are better days ahead. Trust me.
> 
> I wish you well!


I don't have the strength to do 180, NMMNG, etc. I can barely bring myself to work or do anything around the house.


----------



## This is me

Set small goals. Today I am going to do three things for myself. 

I remember treating myself to Starbucks....gets expensive everyday for this frugal guy, but I needed to show myself I was worth it. 

Do you have support, people who will take the call to help you sort through things?

I was fortunate to have about 10 people who shared the burden of my calls. It helped.

Do your best....


----------



## BeYou

The fact that she is listening to you and asking you questions about your changes are a good sign Mark. She has reason to believe the changes aren't real...very good reasons in fact. Because you've shown in the past that they weren't.

I'm in the exact same boat.

Keep the changes going, don't rush anything. Patience. She's going to need to see these changes are real and permanent before she'll even consider anything. Words won't work at this point.

Our situations sound pretty similar. I wish you strength. PM me if you ever need to chat.


----------



## Mark72

BeYou said:


> The fact that she is listening to you and asking you questions about your changes are a good sign Mark. She has reason to believe the changes aren't real...very good reasons in fact. Because you've shown in the past that they weren't.
> 
> I'm in the exact same boat.
> 
> Keep the changes going, don't rush anything. Patience. She's going to need to see these changes are real and permanent before she'll even consider anything. Words won't work at this point.
> 
> Our situations sound pretty similar. I wish you strength. PM me if you ever need to chat.


Well it all started with rushing things yesterday. I invited her to dinner just the two of us at (our) place. She said it is my place... well the defenses went up. I tried to "fix" it and caused more damage. She is back to very cold and mean, ILYBINILWY, things like that.
I also said something right as I was leaving that was pretty rotten. I let the pain and frustration get to me... 
I am working late the next few nights so I won't be over to see the kids. I did text her to apologize, I can only take responsibility for my own actions. Right or wrong, I let her know that I was sorry for pushing and saying what I said.


----------



## Mark72

Anyway - inviting her to dinner was the rush part. We've been to counseling with the pastor and 1 MC session (didn't go well - she didn't like him at all)


----------



## BeYou

I dunno all the details of your situation, but relationship talk was a sure thing to guarantee a fight with my W. She didn't want to talk about getting back together...she was done. But earlier on, I couldn't help myself sometimes.

Since I've stopped, she's become much more approachable. We go out now for lunch sometimes, and just go about it as friends. So relationship talk. The odd time we'll reference something in the relationship, but just smile about it and continue on.

Just reconnecting on a friend level seems to be a good first step. IF she is anything like my W, then she has a LOT of anger and resentment built up, and small triggers will unleash that. The more positive, non-stressful moments you have with her, the more that anger will subside bit by bit.

It's going to take a while. It's been almost 7 weeks since I moved out. We haven't had a fight in probably 3-4 weeks...well, since the last time I pathetically started falling apart about the relationship.

Without knowing more, I don't want to give too specific of advice. But do not add unnecessary stress into the moments you have with her. "Soften" her spirit from the pain and anger she has. That's step one. Fighting with her only intensifies that.


----------



## Mark72

Most of the story is in this thread...


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## Mark72

Things were starting to get better. Since Thursday, it's been up and down. I'm back to being miserable.


----------



## BeYou

The first reaction for us dumpees is to try and get it fixed NOW! We fear that with every day that goes by, is another step she takes away from us. So we try to fix things so fast...invite her to dinner, create moments together, tell them we've changed, etc.

At some point, you realize none of that works and it's only hurting your cause.

I still get the odd moment where I'm afraid to not talk to her for a few days/week because that's so looooong of a time...haha.

But then I sometimes and sit back and realize how much work I need to still do on myself. And that's probably at least a couple months worth of work. And where will she be in 2 months? Will she be gone forever in 2 months, never to see her again? No. we'll forever have contact because of the child. So maybe time is on our side?

We don't need to rush and fix it right this second. It would be nice if we could...but it's not going to happen right now.

I'm not at my best yet. Neither are you. We need to get there so we actually have something to offer.


----------



## Mark72

BeYou said:


> The first reaction for us dumpees is to try and get it fixed NOW! We fear that with every day that goes by, is another step she takes away from us. So we try to fix things so fast...invite her to dinner, create moments together, tell them we've changed, etc.
> 
> At some point, you realize none of that works and it's only hurting your cause.
> 
> I still get the odd moment where I'm afraid to not talk to her for a few days/week because that's so looooong of a time...haha.
> 
> But then I sometimes and sit back and realize how much work I need to still do on myself. And that's probably at least a couple months worth of work. And where will she be in 2 months? Will she be gone forever in 2 months, never to see her again? No. we'll forever have contact because of the child. So maybe time is on our side?
> 
> We don't need to rush and fix it right this second. It would be nice if we could...but it's not going to happen right now.
> 
> I'm not at my best yet. Neither are you. We need to get there so we actually have something to offer.


Mentally, I KNOW it's not going to happen overnight... But... pain relief, or the hope thereof, makes me forget pretty quickly...


----------



## BeYou

Mark72 said:


> Mentally, I KNOW it's not going to happen overnight... But... pain relief, or the hope thereof, makes me forget pretty quickly...


I hear ya man.

But we need to work on ourselves. There is no doubt in my mind that me at my best, was, and will be again, attractive to my W. Will it be too late by then? Maybe. Will I still be interested? Maybe. Will she want me back? Maybe, maybe not.

It's tough. More difficult than anything.

I find what has helped me recently, is any time I start thinking of her or us, I just immediately for myself to think of something else or do something else as fast as possible. Change the thought subject so you don't get deeper into that depressing though.

It's also empowering to choose NOT to contact her for a day or two (if you're used to doing it every day).


----------



## Mark72

Bomb just dropped. She just text me to tell me she is going to file and doesn't want to do MC anymore.


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## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> Bomb just dropped. She just text me to tell me she is going to file and doesn't want to do MC anymore.


hope you didn't reply trying to change her mind, or make her feel bad. If anything don't reply. If you do keep it short, like "okay".

seems like you have based your happiness on the outcome of your marriage. When things are going good you are hopeful and happy. When things are bad you are down and depressed. I hate to tell you, but she won't want to be with you or anyone else that is like that. You HAVE to focus on yourself and find out how to be happy alone. If you don't, she will never come back. If you do, she may or may not notice, but the end result is you will be happy.


----------



## Mark72

MSC71 said:


> hope you didn't reply trying to change her mind, or make her feel bad. If anything don't reply. If you do keep it short, like "okay".
> 
> seems like you have based your happiness on the outcome of your marriage. When things are going good you are hopeful and happy. When things are bad you are down and depressed. I hate to tell you, but she won't want to be with you or anyone else that is like that. You HAVE to focus on yourself and find out how to be happy alone. If you don't, she will never come back. If you do, she may or may not notice, but the end result is you will be happy.


While I understand this, it is just very difficult to pretend to be happy when I am miserable. I can put on my game face in front of her when I go to see the kids, but I can't just _*be*_ happy...


----------



## Mark72

I'm still in my typical state of confusion/lonliness/anxiety.
I am going after work to see the kids. I set a MC appointment with a new C but not sure if she will agree to go. I will go either way. I'll test the water to see if I should bring it up or not when I get there.

I guess, in addition to focusing on myself, focus more on being a dad and not rushing the R. To me, the friend zone is ok temporarily. Not forever...


----------



## Mark72

Strange night last night...
I was at the in-laws last night, as usual. She was being very nice - playful, stealing my pizza and taking bites and putting it back - things that she hasn't done since well before the S. 
We watched a movie with her parents and our kids. I put them to bed and then we watched a movie in her room - like it has been the past couple weeks.
Well - last night I could tell something was different. 
I scratched her back, rubbed her feet (yeah I'm a sucker).
But there was some tension... we were both feeling the itch.
I started rubbing her belly a bit. I looked at her and told her I don't want to leave but it's probably best. She asked "Why leave?" I kissed her, she kissed me back. We started messing around a bit. We didn't have sex, but we were playing around.
While I did want to, I knew that it wasn't quite the right time. And as I thought, she recoiled a bit. She felt exposed and vulnerable and put the wall back up. She wasn't mean or hateful about it but I can tell she was pretty uncomfortable, and can tell that she let her feelings out of the bag before she was ready. She still isn't wearing her wedding ring, or telling me she loves me. She just asked me to go home before it escalated, and it probably would have. I guess I woke her parents up when I left because her mother text me and told me she was crying...
The strange thing is, I am starting to understand how she is thinking. Not that I think the same way or anything, but things are clicking in my head a bit...


----------



## BeYou

Wow...that's an interesting night. That kiss must have felt incredible. She is clearly not ready to move on, especially when she asked why leave. Hope things continue for you man. I'm jealous. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

BeYou said:


> Wow...that's an interesting night. That kiss must have felt incredible. She is clearly not ready to move on, especially when she asked why leave. Hope things continue for you man. I'm jealous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She said, "Why leave?" because she missed our "alone time".


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## BeYou

Yes, that must have been nice.

My W and I have no problem going for lunch or a drink together and things are friendly and we have fun, but no intimate moments like that. Closest thing was a foot massage I gave her last weekend which I initiated and she didn't stop me, but hasnt led to anything.

So what now for you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

BeYou said:


> Yes, that must have been nice.
> 
> My W and I have no problem going for lunch or a drink together and things are friendly and we have fun, but no intimate moments like that. Closest thing was a foot massage I gave her last weekend which I initiated and she didn't stop me, but hasnt led to anything.
> 
> So what now for you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny thing is... she had been very nice to me all day. Playful and everything. She was studying for a test and I just sat down at the foot of her bed and started rubbing her feet. She had stopped me a few times a few weeks ago.
After I stopped, I laid down next to her. She wouldn't hold my hand... but... it was like she was wanting sex without the intimacy - something she had claimed she was upset with me about in the past...


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## Mark72

She told me tonight that she never stopped loving me.
She also TECHNICALLY told me ILYBINILWY but more in the way of starting to fall in love with me again... Her guard is still up but headway is still being made.
She was very interested in a house for rent, 3 bedroom, for all of us. She is not interested in going back to our home - it's still up for sale.
I don't know - pretty confused still. Still lonely at home. I am working late the next 2 days so it will be Wednesday before I will see them again.

She also told me that her sister and sister-in-law both hate me. They are both telling her not to go back to me. The sister-in-law actually begged her.
Makes me wonder what was actually said to these two. The sister-in-law hides her feelings pretty well. She has always been nice to me, but I was told today that she has hated me from the beginning.

My mother-in-law has started taking my side and speaking in my defense rather boldly to her own daughter and to her daughter-in-law. I don't like that this has caused friction between her and her daughter, but it's refreshing to know that I am not as big a monster as some would believe me to be.

[/rant]


----------



## DH1971

Mark72 said:


> Hi.
> I've been married for 7.5 years. We've had ups and downs. We are both pretty stubborn. I have a porn addiction. 3 years ago she kicked me out because of it. It was while she was staying in the hospital with complications prior to the birth of our son. Yeah.
> 
> I was out for about 2 weeks. It wasn't until after he was born a month later that we started to rekindle. It was really never the same. I was trying to make it a contest. She is kinda bossy, and I wanted to make sure I was the boss. It didn't work. I also tried to bring the porn into the bedroom. Not literally, at first. But I wanted her to do more and more weird things. A few weeks ago, I dropped a hint that I wanted her to watch porn also. It didn't go over too well. I stopped using it but I was looking for an excuse. Not the model Christian I should have been. I talked a good talk but that's it.
> I have also been using sales tactics to manipulate her. She's heard enough pitches to be immune.
> Anyway, we got into an argument that lasted a week. Finally I gave her an ultimatum. Support me in my medical time of need, or stay with your parents for a few days. She protested, but I pushed and pushed and pushed. She left. That was Saturday.
> Now, she wants a divorce and is relentless to get it done now. I don't want one.
> I took a look at everything and with the time alone, time to reflect, I see where I went wrong. I didn't put her before me, and I didn't put God in the center of our marriage. I know this isn't a Christian site, but these are my values, even if I forgot them for a while. She fell in love with me, but fell back out.
> 
> She's been sending me very nasty texts out of anger. I know they are angry. But they are really hurtful and it's tough to take. I know this is mostly my fault, and I only skimmed the surface of the issues, but I included the major stuff. Both of us have issues but I should have been a different man.
> Really hoping for a reconciliation, but not until I have made some changes in me.


Not enough info
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

DH1971 said:


> Not enough info
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you read the whole thread? What else would you like to know?


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## notwantingtobeasinglemom

Do you like chicken and corn?


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## Mark72

Another great weekend. Slow and steady improvements. 
She still wants to have a seat between us at church for some reason... not sure about that. 
Although the house is still going to be lost, we are turning in our applications to rent a house. I talked with a few people and the consensus is that she is wanting to start new memories because our place has too many bad ones. We bought it very shortly after the previous reconciliation. 
Yesterday, while at her parents' house, her sister came over. They were not rude to me. Her husband actually text me and offered me a pizza after they left, while I was watching a movie with my wife. All of us were a little shocked at the offer, that may be a peace offering. So all in all, things are moving along. Yeah, I am a little impatient with things, I'd like them to be 100% perfect right now, but I'll take things as they are because it is SOOOOO much better than it was 2 months ago.
I'll still keep posting the progress on here.


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## Mark72

Looks like we are definitely going to be getting this house together. Signing the lease either today or next Saturday. 
SIL still hates me. Both SIL's do... BIL's seem to want to stay out of it. It's going to take a lot more time for the SIL's... It's ok. This decision is between God, me, my wife, and my kids. Everyone else is important to us, but they are not the deciding factors on R


----------



## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> Looks like we are definitely going to be getting this house together. Signing the lease either today or next Saturday.
> SIL still hates me. Both SIL's do... BIL's seem to want to stay out of it. It's going to take a lot more time for the SIL's... It's ok. This decision is between God, me, my wife, and my kids. Everyone else is important to us, but they are not the deciding factors on R


be nice to SIL's. That will drive them crazy. And try not to even mention them infront of wife. No need for any drama.


----------



## Mark72

MSC71 said:


> be nice to SIL's. That will drive them crazy. And try not to even mention them infront of wife. No need for any drama.


Already one step ahead of you. I work with her sister. Same office. Cubicle is 20 feet from me... I have been going out of my way to be "Mr Nice Guy". Yes, I must admit, partially to get under her skin... I'm human, sue me...

But really I am not going to worry as much about them as me. I am bettering myself, I am a good person. If they can't see it, so be it. My wife is hurting because of the break in the family, but she has chosen me over her sister. She is avoiding telling her about the house for now... I understand it. But this whole experience has shown me how she really feels about me. Crazy as it is, we love each other. 

On another note, we actually had a dialog in MC. It was the first time we gave complaints without either one getting their feelings hurt and yelling at the other...
It is possible!!!


----------



## Mark72

Another great weekend. She was in a bad mood yesterday but snapped out of it and started treating me nice. Usually, the bad mood would end, but the treatment remained. She also put her wedding ring back on last night. 
Our pastor asked us to have an impromtu visit with he and his wife to just catch up - that went well.
All in all, there has been a complete turnaround. Both of us are making an effort. I don't think she had really COMPLETELY checked out of the marriage, but the stress built up and I had piled on. 
The main thing is that we don't go back to the old routine. We can't sweep this under the rug


----------



## Mark72

Still struggling with her sister. It wouldn't be so bad if she didn't work with me, but she sits 15 feet from me. I tried to talk with her and she snapped at me. I am being as friendly as I can for my wife's sake and my MIL's sake. But I am weakening... I really want to tell her to stop trying to cause problems... But that would cause more problems.


----------



## Mark72

Still going well. Hoping to start moving in this weekend. No change on the sister, it may have even gotten worse since she found out that we are back together and moving to a new place. 
She has made sure that she is available to spend time with me and the kids whenever I am off work... Without fail we are together, except when she has school.


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## Mark72

Hmmm
I guess I'm out...


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## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> Hmmm
> I guess I'm out...


what do you mean?


----------



## Mark72

I was in a bad mood yesterday. I have a feeling people at work are starting to take sides with this whole SIL thing. The people I used to eat lunch with are walking right past me and sitting at other tables. Seems the better the marriage the worse the treatment from the SIL. I tried to talk with her, she refused. I was having a whining session yesterday that spilled over into here.


----------



## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> I was in a bad mood yesterday. I have a feeling people at work are starting to take sides with this whole SIL thing. The people I used to eat lunch with are walking right past me and sitting at other tables. Seems the better the marriage the worse the treatment from the SIL. I tried to talk with her, she refused. I was having a whining session yesterday that spilled over into here.


Don't assume that is the case. Maybe you are down and sad. That usually makes people stay away from you. But I would quit trying to talk to SIL all together. Say hi or whatever a d if she doesnt respond back, then that is her problem. I don't think you are going to convince her about anything.


----------



## Mark72

MSC71 said:


> Don't assume that is the case. Maybe you are down and sad. That usually makes people stay away from you. But I would quit trying to talk to SIL all together. Say hi or whatever a d if she doesnt respond back, then that is her problem. I don't think you are going to convince her about anything.


Just makes it tough when I sit by her at work. The whole family is very much in favor of our reconciliation except my 2 SIL's - and one of them can "fake it"... 
Everyone seems to be worried about the holidays and how she is going to react. We all know that she CAN choose to be civil to me, but she chooses not to. Her actions do not only affect me, but the affect the whole family, and apparently people at work too. It's 7:35 right now and she and I are the only two in our department right now... I am biting my tongue.


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## Mark72

Tonight is my last night sleeping alone! 
I can tell that she is excited to be back together but she is still slightly reserved in expressing her excitement with me around. She freely tells her parents how she feels (yes they tell me things).
I am really happy to be getting my family back. I can see changes in her and changes in me. Looks like we are building a really good foundation.

I am doing most of the packing though.... I think I can deal with that


----------



## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> Tonight is my last night sleeping alone!
> I can tell that she is excited to be back together but she is still slightly reserved in expressing her excitement with me around. She freely tells her parents how she feels (yes they tell me things).
> I am really happy to be getting my family back. I can see changes in her and changes in me. Looks like we are building a really good foundation.
> 
> I am doing most of the packing though.... I think I can deal with that


Just don't smother her right away. Try not to be too excited if you know what I mean. Take it slow and don't overwhelm her.


----------



## Mark72

MSC71 said:


> Just don't smother her right away. Try not to be too excited if you know what I mean. Take it slow and don't overwhelm her.


I'm making a real effort there... she knows I am. We're not out of the woods but we are walking out together


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## MSC71

Mark72 said:


> I'm making a real effort there... she knows I am. We're not out of the woods but we are walking out together


Baby steps.


----------



## itskaren

To be perfectly honest I have never understood why some women are just so against porn? It is fantasy. There is nothing better than having a couple bottles of wine and watching porn together. As long as it doesn't become an addiction.

In my opinion it is harmless fun. As long as the 'actors'' are consenting adults then no harm is done? I haven't got a problem with it. And if my husband wants to watch porn on his own then great.

Saying that, this is coming from someone that I have just been tramuatised by my recent husband's affair .. but putting that aside no probs with me.


----------



## Mark72

itskaren said:


> To be perfectly honest I have never understood why some women are just so against porn? It is fantasy. There is nothing better than having a couple bottles of wine and watching porn together. As long as it doesn't become an addiction.
> 
> In my opinion it is harmless fun. As long as the 'actors'' are consenting adults then no harm is done? I haven't got a problem with it. And if my husband wants to watch porn on his own then great.
> 
> Saying that, this is coming from someone that I have just been tramuatised by my recent husband's affair .. but putting that aside no probs with me.


Well, I do have an addiction.
No Affair


----------



## MSC71

itskaren said:


> To be perfectly honest I have never understood why some women are just so against porn? It is fantasy. There is nothing better than having a couple bottles of wine and watching porn together. As long as it doesn't become an addiction.
> 
> In my opinion it is harmless fun. As long as the 'actors'' are consenting adults then no harm is done? I haven't got a problem with it. And if my husband wants to watch porn on his own then great.
> 
> Saying that, this is coming from someone that I have just been tramuatised by my recent husband's affair .. but putting that aside no probs with me.


His affair and porn could be linked. Its common.


----------



## Mark72

Right now I feel that we are better than we have been since before the kids were born. Perhaps the best since we've been married. I don't want to blow this, neither does she. Counseling is continuing, we are both making real efforts to do this right!


----------



## Mark72

Had a small hiccup over the weekend... seemed like for a few moments we were back to where we were 6 months ago, but it was in pieces over the whole weekend. It concerned me a bit, but I don't think it necessarily has to be a preview of things to come. We are both making efforts to make this a good marriage, but we are both WORKING on it, but we are not comepletely changed people - we are CHANGING people.


----------



## Dewayne76

So how was Thanksgiving guy? 

Sounds like you guys are doing some real work to this thing. I hope things are going well. Please let us know how the holiday went. 

Keep up the work. And don't forget to keep it up after things are much better. That's where we fail at continuing our change. We think "ahh everything's fine now" and then don't worry so much, THEEENNNN we're back into the hot seat again.


----------



## Mark72

Dewayne76 said:


> So how was Thanksgiving guy?
> 
> Sounds like you guys are doing some real work to this thing. I hope things are going well. Please let us know how the holiday went.
> 
> Keep up the work. And don't forget to keep it up after things are much better. That's where we fail at continuing our change. We think "ahh everything's fine now" and then don't worry so much, THEEENNNN we're back into the hot seat again.


Thanksgiving was ok. Tension was there between her siblings and I. 
Temptation is there to relax and just cruise. I know that I can't do that.


----------



## Mark72

New development... wife is pregnant!

It's been a year since the miscarriage. She was safe to get pregnant 6 months ago.

I'm happy but a little concerned about the timing and finances.


----------



## kindi

Her being pregnant is probably not a good thing given the serious issues you both have with the relationship.

Having a child only exacerbates existing problems with the greater responsibility and financial burden, it doesn't erase them.


----------



## Chris from IL

I read your story - congrats on the pregnancy. Your story gives me a little hope. I've been out of the house for 30 days and starting the work on myself thing after begging her didnt work.


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## Mark72

Not a lot of news. We are still doing well, MC has been put on hold due to school issues - there is no time for us to go now, but I am still going to IC. We will pick up again in 2 months. Pregnancy is going well. She's got morning sickness that lasts from 5am to 4:59am, so I am picking up most of the slack on housework. We're both full time at school and full time at work. It limits how much time we spend together but we are making the most of it. All in all we are headed in the right direction


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## Mark72

The pregnancy hormones are working overtime, but she is not taking things out on me like she had before. She's making real efforts to be a better wife. Because she has all day sickness, the romance life is not very regular, but it's not on hold. 
Arguments are waaayy down. Nice guy syndrome is fading.


----------



## Theo123

Very glad I read this whole thread.


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## Mark72

Maybe I was wrong about the Nice Guy syndrome...
I have fallen into the old rut of doing everything for her. Starting to feel like she is taking advantage of it and taking me for granted. 95% of what she asks for, I do. It's the opposite for me. Time to put on the brakes and let her do some things for herself. I gotta be happy to. 
She is not being rude or taking things out on me like before. We don't fight often, but when we do, it's about having my needs and wants addressed. Time to read NMMNG again...


----------



## Mark72

Well, that worked well - I think she is really starting to see the dynamics of our marriage, and the parts that are not working well. She has made some major shifts and we are back on track!
She's making a real effort to address my needs, and that's much more than she has done in years.
Thanks for sticking around!


----------



## Mark72

Well, things are not taking the exact road I was hoping for...
Lots of stress between us - but much of the stress has lifted. Her job, her schooling, being pregnant... Our son was born 2 weeks ago, she is on maternity leave and probably not going back to her job, and she graduated...
The problem is that she still doesn't care for physical affection. I laid low, not being overly clingy or desperate (despite the name of this thread) but no real change. Sex was 2-4 times a month until about a month ago, a real decline but also the passion had fizzled. When I try to bring it up, I try to be respectful. It's never a "good time" to talk about it... or she claims every time she would show any affection I always wanted sex (big exaggeration - but even if it was true, so what???) . And now of course intercourse is not going to happen because she just had a baby 2 weeks ago but she refuses any substitutions... She says she doesn't feel like it. But she hasn't felt like it for a long time. She doesn't know why. Everything else has been a great improvement, but the physical aspect is the most important part of the marriage to me. 
I've read enough on here to realize that she has lost respect for me. The thing is, I really don't want to lose my kids... I don't want to be apart from my newborn. Yes I will still see them but it's not the same as being able to see them every day. 
We had some counseling sessions with our pastor when we separated last year, he and his wife are marriage counselors. Now she refuses to go... I'm going on my own to see him this Sunday...
Just venting, but if anyone wants to chime in please feel free.


----------



## ConanHub

Mark72 said:


> Well, things are not taking the exact road I was hoping for...
> Lots of stress between us - but much of the stress has lifted. Her job, her schooling, being pregnant... Our son was born 2 weeks ago, she is on maternity leave and probably not going back to her job, and she graduated...
> The problem is that she still doesn't care for physical affection. I laid low, not being overly clingy or desperate (despite the name of this thread) but no real change. Sex was 2-4 times a month until about a month ago, a real decline but also the passion had fizzled. When I try to bring it up, I try to be respectful. It's never a "good time" to talk about it... or she claims every time she would show any affection I always wanted sex (big exaggeration - but even if it was true, so what???) . And now of course intercourse is not going to happen because she just had a baby 2 weeks ago but she refuses any substitutions... She says she doesn't feel like it. But she hasn't felt like it for a long time. She doesn't know why. Everything else has been a great improvement, but the physical aspect is the most important part of the marriage to me.
> I've read enough on here to realize that she has lost respect for me. The thing is, I really don't want to lose my kids... I don't want to be apart from my newborn. Yes I will still see them but it's not the same as being able to see them every day.
> We had some counseling sessions with our pastor when we separated last year, he and his wife are marriage counselors. Now she refuses to go... I'm going on my own to see him this Sunday...
> Just venting, but if anyone wants to chime in please feel free.


I don't know if anyone has brought this up, and sorry to chime in so late, I have read most of the posts, but have you considered the possibility that your wife may have started an affair? Ea/Pa are very often associated with the level of stress in your marriage. I am not trying to stir the pot, I am super pro marriage a and think you are working really hard. Your wife has shown some signs of a possible A. It may even just be something she is struggling with( temptation ). I also may be totally off base. Hope the best for you and congratulations on new baby!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Mark you really tried man but I think it's time to move on. Even if she doesn't have someone else she is just not into you. Limbo sux.


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## a_new_me

Mark72 said:


> Well, things are not taking the exact road I was hoping for...
> Lots of stress between us - but much of the stress has lifted. Her job, her schooling, being pregnant... Our son was born 2 weeks ago, she is on maternity leave and probably not going back to her job, and she graduated...
> The problem is that she still doesn't care for physical affection. I laid low, not being overly clingy or desperate (despite the name of this thread) but no real change. Sex was 2-4 times a month until about a month ago, a real decline but also the passion had fizzled. When I try to bring it up, I try to be respectful. It's never a "good time" to talk about it... or she claims every time she would show any affection I always wanted sex (big exaggeration - but even if it was true, so what???) . And now of course intercourse is not going to happen because she just had a baby 2 weeks ago but she refuses any substitutions... She says she doesn't feel like it. But she hasn't felt like it for a long time. She doesn't know why. Everything else has been a great improvement, but the physical aspect is the most important part of the marriage to me.
> I've read enough on here to realize that she has lost respect for me. The thing is, I really don't want to lose my kids... I don't want to be apart from my newborn. Yes I will still see them but it's not the same as being able to see them every day.
> We had some counseling sessions with our pastor when we separated last year, he and his wife are marriage counselors. Now she refuses to go... I'm going on my own to see him this Sunday...
> Just venting, but if anyone wants to chime in please feel free.


You wife had a baby 2 weeks ago and you are pressuring her for sex and/or substitutions?

When a woman has a baby, her body changes. She has many hormonal shifts, and is exhausted from getting up to do feedings and getting broken sleep. Having to manage everything else that she has to manage, deal with emotions and changes to her appearance. A lot of women do not feel sexy after having a child. 
Having a baby is not a walk in the park.
Instead of bugging her for sex, take care of your own business, pick up the slack and make her life easier so she can rest and get back to normal. She just did give you a child.


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## Mark72

a_new_me said:


> You wife had a baby 2 weeks ago and you are pressuring her for sex and/or substitutions?
> 
> When a woman has a baby, her body changes. She has many hormonal shifts, and is exhausted from getting up to do feedings and getting broken sleep. Having to manage everything else that she has to manage, deal with emotions and changes to her appearance. A lot of women do not feel sexy after having a child.
> Having a baby is not a walk in the park.
> Instead of bugging her for sex, take care of your own business, pick up the slack and make her life easier so she can rest and get back to normal. She just did give you a child.


I certainly appreciate the input you have given. If this was just about sex right after the birth, I would agree with you 100%. THis has been going on for 2 years. With our previous two children, she was initiating sex after 2 weeks, but I certainly understand the changes that you are talking about, and thank you for the response.


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## Mark72

After trying to talk about this and try to explain how I feel and try to get an understanding of how she really feels, same old same old. I bring it up, she gets angry. My past is thrown in my face
Im meeting with my pastor as often as I can. She wont come. I will give it every shot I have before I walk out. 
THis time last year I was begging her to come back. Now I don't know if I want to put forth the effort anymore.


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## cdbaker

Mark, I know that the sexual intimacy stuff has been an ongoing issue for a while, and I've been in the exact same situation (I'd say my wife and I have averaged maybe 4x/YEAR in our nearly 10 year marriage) so I definitely feel your pain, but you have to realize that you can't, you just can't say that the weeks after giving birth are like any other weeks in your marriage.

The past really doesn't matter in that first few weeks. Remember every pregnancy is totally different too, so you can't compare it to the last. In fact, KNOWING that sex is pretty much off the table for these next few weeks, in that she has a really damn good excuse for not feeling sexy, you should take this OPPORTUNITY to just love her and make her feel beautiful. Show that you have no expectations, don't dare to try to escalate a friendly hug or kiss to anything more. Let her feel comfortable that she can show you affection without fear that you'll try to push her into something she is not comfortable with. It just makes her not want to show any affection that might "set you off".

After that, honestly if you haven't tried it yet, I think you need to give her a vacation from sex. "Dude, the last two years have basically been a vacation from sex for her!" Yeah I know, but I really mean a vacation from sexual expectations. Just straight up tell her that you realize that she probably feels like she is failing you in many ways because of the sexual issue. She probably feels guilty, and even if/when she does feel affectionate towards you, she is probably fearful of expressing it because of how you'll respond to it, which will force her to reject you again and experience that guilt and shame all over again. It's a cycle, and it does nothing but push you both further and further apart. Trying to haul her back into more counselor's and pastor's offices to talk about sex, and how you're unfulfilled, and how it's basically her fault (even if done in the nicest way) is just humiliating and and causes her to feel even worse about herself. All the while wondering if it is just a matter of time before you dump her for someone else who is more attractive or at least willing to be more sexual than she is, despondent in the feeling that she can't keep her husband happy the way most women can, nor could she blame him for possibly wanting someone else if it came to that. Eventually she feels resentful, with very low self confidence, and unloved.

"But dude, I do love her, and I show her that a bazillion different ways!"

I'm sure you do, but woven through every interaction and every nice thing you do, there is the reminder that she is still failing you, or maybe a fear that you do nice things just to butter her up for sex, or she might feel guilty when you treat her well and she can't reciprocate in the way you want most, and so on. Eventually they just become words to her, and before long she just wants out.

So the idea is a sexual vacation. It's gotta be at least three months, probably closer to six. Just be honest about everything above, that you can empathize with her, that you feel like you understand a bit better (though be open to letting her share more if she wants to) and the idea is that maybe you can both rebuild your relationship better if you completely remove the element of sexual intimacy for a while. She can experience your efforts to show her love and affection without fear of an underlying motive. She can feel free to show her appreciation and affection without fear of you trying to escalate it. I imagine she would LOVE such a gesture from you, showing her that you love her enough to willingly sacrifice this element for her for a while, because it is important to you that SHE FEEL the love that you have for her, that she know it is real, and that it ISN'T just because you are horny or otherwise "want some" from her.

Again this is a massive suggestion, and I could be way off base here so feel free to ignore me. But like I said, I bet something like this could mean the world to her. It might take a few weeks before she believes it, but I bet she carries enormous loads of guilt, shame, resentment, fear, etc. on her shoulders every day, so to help her remove all that baggage for a few months, you might be able to jump-start her love and self esteem in a huge way.


One last thing, has porn been an issue for you? As in, do you use porn? If so, does she know about it? Either way, if you use it, you gotta cut that out. That too messes with her in an enormous way. Give that up at the same time and wow, she won't know who you are anymore.


----------



## a_new_me

Mark72 said:


> After trying to talk about this and try to explain how I feel and try to get an understanding of how she really feels, same old same old. I bring it up, she gets angry. My past is thrown in my face
> Im meeting with my pastor as often as I can. She wont come. I will give it every shot I have before I walk out.
> THis time last year I was begging her to come back. Now I don't know if I want to put forth the effort anymore.


Sorry, you said your past thrown back in your face, she is angry and you were begging her to come back? 

Did you have an affair?


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## lifeistooshort

Pressuring her for sex and your needs to weeks after a baby huh? That's pretty crappy and reeks of selfishness; I don't care what your past is, nothing is going to justify that. If my hb did that with me I promise you I would never forget it. There is a time to address your intimacy issues but this aint it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

a_new_me said:


> Sorry, you said your past thrown back in your face, she is angry and you were begging her to come back?
> 
> Did you have an affair?


Porn. 5 years ago.


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## Mark72

She told me the other day that she has not felt the same about me in years. She cannot pinpoint anything that caused it. She can't tell me any actions that she doesn't like or feelings she gets at anything I do or say. 

It hurt.

I told her two days ago that I am willing to fight for our marriage but not if she isn't going to make any efforts. 

Since then there has been a bit of a spark - not a bunch but enough to prolong me forming an exit plan.


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## a_new_me

I see.

Well, that is really complicated.

I do not see any issues with watching porn as long as it does not replace the intimacy in a relationship, but some people are really bothered by it and I understand that can be really difficult on a relationship. 

It is hard building a relationship after such an intense issue. But if you are strong and love each other, anyone can survive in the face of such issues.


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## cdbaker

Porn is a relationship killer, period. It trains our brains that sexual satisfaction is always a moments notice away, without any effort required. It literally reprograms us at a chemical level, in the same way that consuming a lot of alcohol over a long period of time will create an alcoholic. Anyone who thinks that this won't negatively impact their marriage is insane.

So it is good that you've figured that out. One question I have, is have you really kicked that habit?

I mean really?

I ask because, in my experience, without some major accountability involving groups, accountability software on every electronic device you own, someone checking credit card statements, etc., that people will lie in response to that question 90% of the time.

In any case, I think it's good that you put it to her that way, saying that you'll fight for the marriage and do whatever it takes, as long as she too is willing to put forth genuine effort, not just sit and wait to see if her feelings "drift back into place" or something like that. I think it's ok to lay out some fair expectations that scale up over time as well, starting easy for her.


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## cdbaker

By the way, what did you think of my "sexual vacation" idea from above? I seriously think she would be floored by such a suggestion!


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> By the way, what did you think of my "sexual vacation" idea from above? I seriously think she would be floored by such a suggestion!


A) I am a recovering porn addict. Yes, I quit. No I am not free of it. I never will be. The dopamine rush was a thrill and instead of using a needle or straw to get my drug, I got it from my own body by causing a chemical reaction to release it. I have sought accountability with filters set by a church member.

B) I won't even attempt that. 3-6 months of not expressing interest in sex? I know my limitations.


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## Wise Fairy

Mark, you guys have been through so much together you have given it everything you have got that has to be commended in itself. You have children together, have lost a house and are trying to rebuild again as a family. When a woman has a child there are a lot of chemical reactions in her body, she may not feel sexy the hormones are still trying to regulate and so on you know what I mean. You shouldn't take it that she doesn't want anything to do with you. Are you having date nights as just a couple, are you doing couple things together, a woman needs to feel safe and that is your job so that she can open up to you and off course that goes both ways. Wouldn't she appreciate back rubs, or foot rubs or other intimacy that doesn't have to include full sex? Do you put your arms around her when she as the sink doing dishes from behind? There are so many things that women need and there are no text books given to men or women before they get married only self help books after the damage is done lol! I think that once you make her feel safe she will reciprocate to you, it will take patience on your part. Oh! and the past is the past live in the present.


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## Mark72

Wise Fairy said:


> Mark, you guys have been through so much together you have given it everything you have got that has to be commended in itself. You have children together, have lost a house and are trying to rebuild again as a family. When a woman has a child there are a lot of chemical reactions in her body, she may not feel sexy the hormones are still trying to regulate and so on you know what I mean. You shouldn't take it that she doesn't want anything to do with you. Are you having date nights as just a couple, are you doing couple things together, a woman needs to feel safe and that is your job so that she can open up to you and off course that goes both ways. Wouldn't she appreciate back rubs, or foot rubs or other intimacy that doesn't have to include full sex? Do you put your arms around her when she as the sink doing dishes from behind? There are so many things that women need and there are no text books given to men or women before they get married only self help books after the damage is done lol! I think that once you make her feel safe she will reciprocate to you, it will take patience on your part. Oh! and the past is the past live in the present.


It's funny that you mention a few of those things. The only time it seems that she is ok with me touching her is when I am rubbing her feet/back/etc. I have even been making the point of telling her in the past few days "I don't expect anything from this, I just want you to know that I love you". 
When I come up behind her and hug her she gets angry. When I try to give her a goodbye kiss, she winces and turns her cheek to me.

If I knew what her needs were, it would be great because she will not tell me. She only seems content when we are living as room mates - no intimacy, no real communication about each other, no physical contact unless I am massaging her. The mention of sex or any innuendo gets a response similar to an old woman overhearing a sexually explicit conversation in a grocery store... a disgusted "Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?" look.

I can only come to the conclusion that she either doesn't know or doesn't care how important these things are to me and what it does to me. It's not like this just started at the end of the pregnancy. Now it's just at its worst. The intimacy has been decreasing drastically since the miscarriage in January 2012. She doesn't see it. She won't go to counseling. She won't talk to me about it. She isn't leaving me. It's like she is content with both of us being miserable. 

Life is too short for that. I am going to make sure I have done everything I can before I decide to leave. I don't want to break up the family. Funny - this time last year - I was at the other end of the spectrum - that's what started this thread. I don't want to give up on the chance for us to be happy together, so I am going to give it all I have to rule anything out - then I am going to weigh out my options... I'm really hoping this works out but I'm not as optimistic as I'd like to be


----------



## Wise Fairy

Mark, It sounds almost like she is having a lot of guilt feelings with the baby and all still too, and has turned that in on herself. Gentleness, tenderness, patience should prevail here. Kind actions on your part, when a woman falls backwards she needs to knows that her partner will catch her. Compliments go a long way too even if it's just small things. There does need to be a safe place where she can talk about her issues, sounds like she isn't ready to open up because it's too painful. 

I came out of a 4 year relationship just and it's painful you remember that separation feeling, that's why I am giving you some pointers as to what a woman needs to hear and feel I knew what I needed but there was none of it so I know how cold it can be, and I am a very passionate person shame I was with a dud but that ce la vie friend. 

Get those one on one dates started or at least initiated. All the best.


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## Mark72

Not gonna jinx anything (not that I believe in that) but I think there is a bit of activity on her end... Good stuff happening


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## Mark72

Just got dealt another blow today. Maybe I'm just too sensitive like she tells me... but here it goes...
My wife is a big girl. Has been since we met, although when we met was the smallest she has ever been. 
She's had 3 kids. She's 10 years older. But I still find her beautiful and sexy. I tell her that daily. She usually dismisses it.
She tells me from time to time that someone at her work or the store or whatever paid her a compliment, and she is obviously happy about that. When I tell her, she scowls.
I asked her about it this morning. She said it makes her feel uncomfortable when I give her compliments, and that I only do it because I have to.
All these years I've been telling her that I think she is beautiful and she doesn't like it, but she really likes it when she hears it from other people... male or female. Have I just been feeding this codependancy all this time? 

The morning started off just fine, we were getting along pretty well... I made a comment that I was distracted because I have a beautiful woman on the phone, and she scoffed. That's when I asked her, that's when she told me she doesn't like it when I compliment her.

Am I being too sensitive or is this a problem?


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## hawx20

My wife started her affair because a loser paid her a compliment on her looks. I complimented her all the time and I guess it didnt mean much.

Maybe its like when a parent tells their kid how good looking they are. You know, parents are supposed to think that.

Maybe she thinks you're supposed to say or think that and coming from a stranger, it really means something.

She sounds like my wife in that she needs external validation.


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## Mark72

What really sucks is over the past year of our reconciliation, I have been a ton better with anxiety and depression.

Today that I am a ball of emotional goo.


----------



## hawx20

Mark72 said:


> What really sucks is over the past year of our reconciliation, I have been a ton better with anxiety and depression.
> 
> Today that I am a ball of emotional goo.


Yeah no matter what you do, no matter how good you may feel on any particular day, there is always that cloud of doom following you. 

I cant tell you how many times I've thought "wow I feel pretty good to day......but.....my wife still cheated on me"

I find that I'm not able to handle stress or frustrations like I used to. I am handling the affair relatively well, but its taking everything I have. The slightest bit of stress, no matter the source, hits me so hard because I have nothing left to cope with it.

Today is one of those days....


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## Mark72

Hawx, I'm sorry that you're going through that. I am pretty confident there was no PA on her part...
Just not "there" like she was before the miscarriage.


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## tracyishere

She is probably being serious that she thinks you just "have to" say that. You are married to her and by that bond you are bound to her no matter what. 

Someone who does not have that obligation to her would definitely be seen differently in terms of how they view her. She probably would believe a statement like that far more than yours if she suffers from low self-esteem because of this. 

I'd say you need to do more in terms of actions rather than words to make her believe what you say.


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## Mark72

tracyishere said:


> She is probably being serious that she thinks you just "have to" say that. You are married to her and by that bond you are bound to her no matter what.
> 
> Someone who does not have that obligation to her would definitely be seen differently in terms of how they view her. She probably would believe a statement like that far more than yours if she suffers from low self-esteem because of this.
> 
> I'd say you need to do more in terms of actions rather than words to make her believe what you say.


Thank you for the insight. Any tips? I've tried what I know... I've said it publicly. I've tried pda but she doesn't like that. In fact, she tells me I'm too touchy-feely sometimes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tracyishere

My best advice would be to encourage her to view herself better. Tell her that you notice she doesn't seem to appreciate her own beauty like you do. Ask her what you can do to help her feel better about herself. Everybody needs different things to make them feel good about themselves. 

Maybe she needs time for herself to fill her tank and do something she loves.

Maybe she needs you to show her her beauty by having her stand in front of a mirror and expressing how you love each inch of her and why.

Maybe she needs more romance. Buy her an sexy outfit or take her out and let her choose one that she feels comfortable in. It doesn't have to be lingerie if she is too shy for that. It could be a nice dress or a new outfit.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Thank you for the insight. Any tips? I've tried what I know... I've said it publicly. I've tried pda but she doesn't like that. In fact, she tells me I'm too touchy-feely sometimes
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mark,

It sounds like you're smothering her.

Have you ever read MEM's Thermostat thread?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Mark,
> 
> It sounds like you're smothering her.
> 
> Have you ever read MEM's Thermostat thread?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


Eeerrrrmmmmm

Yeah. I'm doing it again. Chill pill.
Yes I did just say that
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tracyishere

Well, I know nothing about that! My H does not turn up the thermostat unless he wants something. So do not listen to my advice if that is the case.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Eeerrrrmmmmm
> 
> Yeah. I'm doing it again. Chill pill.
> Yes I did just say that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why we're here


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## Mark72

Tracy.... yes. Conrad and I have talked before... I've regresssed a bit. There used to be cheese at the end of this maze as a reward. Times have changed
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tracyishere

Well, I'm glad he got you back on track then:smthumbup:


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## cdbaker

Mark72 said:


> Just got dealt another blow today. Maybe I'm just too sensitive like she tells me... but here it goes...
> My wife is a big girl. Has been since we met, although when we met was the smallest she has ever been.
> She's had 3 kids. She's 10 years older. But I still find her beautiful and sexy. I tell her that daily. She usually dismisses it.
> She tells me from time to time that someone at her work or the store or whatever paid her a compliment, and she is obviously happy about that. When I tell her, she scowls.
> I asked her about it this morning. She said it makes her feel uncomfortable when I give her compliments, and that I only do it because I have to.
> All these years I've been telling her that I think she is beautiful and she doesn't like it, but she really likes it when she hears it from other people... male or female. Have I just been feeding this codependancy all this time?
> 
> The morning started off just fine, we were getting along pretty well... I made a comment that I was distracted because I have a beautiful woman on the phone, and she scoffed. That's when I asked her, that's when she told me she doesn't like it when I compliment her.
> 
> Am I being too sensitive or is this a problem?


Ugh, I'm in the same boat. Some of this I totally get, some of it I don't.

I GET that a compliment from me doesn't mean as much as a compliment from someone else, especially another guy. I don't have a problem with that at all. While I 100% mean every compliment I give my wife, she also knows that husbands are supposed to give compliments, and they can also be given with ulterior motives or without thought. Where as with someone else, they don't have any reason to compliment so it comes off as more genuine, or if they do have an ulterior motive (such as another guy who'd like to see if he has a chance with her) then that too is obviously flattering as well. After all, would an average woman like to receive 100 compliments from her husband or 1 compliment from her husband along with 99 compliments from 99 other guys throughout the day? I can't blame any woman for preferring the latter, and even as the husband I am not offended by that.

In a former post, you also described my wife's behavior to a T. Just doesn't want to be touched. Will accept hugs begrudgingly and without using her arms most of the time (the facial expression says, "Ugh, again? Can't you see I don't really want to hug you?") simple quick kisses on the lips but will try to turn her cheek to avoid it if she can, no cuddling (she'll even sleep on top of the sheet on our bed to avoid any possible skin-to-skin contact) and certainly no sex. Years ago she used to love my massages, shoulder and foot rubs but now she refuses them outright because she just doesn't want me touching her at all. It's better than it was six months ago, or even three years ago, but still incredibly frustrating.

Have you made any progress on that front? I've always told myself that as long as my relationship is getting better and not worse, I'll stick with it. So far, it's still on the upward track, but I just wish it were progressing faster.


----------



## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> Ugh, I'm in the same boat. Some of this I totally get, some of it I don't.
> 
> I GET that a compliment from me doesn't mean as much as a compliment from someone else, especially another guy. I don't have a problem with that at all. While I 100% mean every compliment I give my wife, she also knows that husbands are supposed to give compliments, and they can also be given with ulterior motives or without thought. Where as with someone else, they don't have any reason to compliment so it comes off as more genuine, or if they do have an ulterior motive (such as another guy who'd like to see if he has a chance with her) then that too is obviously flattering as well. After all, would an average woman like to receive 100 compliments from her husband or 1 compliment from her husband along with 99 compliments from 99 other guys throughout the day? I can't blame any woman for preferring the latter, and even as the husband I am not offended by that.
> 
> In a former post, you also described my wife's behavior to a T. Just doesn't want to be touched. Will accept hugs begrudgingly and without using her arms most of the time (the facial expression says, "Ugh, again? Can't you see I don't really want to hug you?") simple quick kisses on the lips but will try to turn her cheek to avoid it if she can, no cuddling (she'll even sleep on top of the sheet on our bed to avoid any possible skin-to-skin contact) and certainly no sex. Years ago she used to love my massages, shoulder and foot rubs but now she refuses them outright because she just doesn't want me touching her at all. It's better than it was six months ago, or even three years ago, but still incredibly frustrating.
> 
> Have you made any progress on that front? I've always told myself that as long as my relationship is getting better and not worse, I'll stick with it. So far, it's still on the upward track, but I just wish it were progressing faster.


I read what Conrad posted to me... as a reminder. I'd suggest reading it too -


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## cdbaker

Oh I did. I liked the post he linked to as well. It's very, very good advice. As I understand it, the advice is to go cold. Ultimately cool down the relationship to a point where she feels cold as well and wants to warm it up a bit, and from there you can figure out what the median expectation will be.


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> Oh I did. I liked the post he linked to as well. It's very, very good advice. As I understand it, the advice is to go cold. Ultimately cool down the relationship to a point where she feels cold as well and wants to warm it up a bit, and from there you can figure out what the median expectation will be.


I need to be cooling it down quite a bit as far as touching and sex. I did for 2 days and she came to bed only partially dressed... just enough to keep covered in case the kids got up... Which was a cue for me...


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## cdbaker

Wow. Well crap. Maybe I need to figure out a better way to go about this. I thought it meant to just stop angling for any kind of touch or relational intimacy. I still do all the normal things I do as far as chores, helping her out if she asks for it, doing the gentlemanly thing of helping her with bigger tasks, household stuff, etc. I guess I'm just not very good at determining where the line is.


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> Wow. Well crap. Maybe I need to figure out a better way to go about this. I thought it meant to just stop angling for any kind of touch or relational intimacy. I still do all the normal things I do as far as chores, helping her out if she asks for it, doing the gentlemanly thing of helping her with bigger tasks, household stuff, etc. I guess I'm just not very good at determining where the line is.


Something I have thought about for myself...
Determine if you are in a codependant relationship...

Are you?


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Something I have thought about for myself...
> Determine if you are in a codependant relationship...
> 
> Are you?


Codependents are always the last to know


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## Conrad

cdbaker said:


> Wow. Well crap. Maybe I need to figure out a better way to go about this. I thought it meant to just stop angling for any kind of touch or relational intimacy. I still do all the normal things I do as far as chores, helping her out if she asks for it, doing the gentlemanly thing of helping her with bigger tasks, household stuff, etc. I guess I'm just not very good at determining where the line is.


Do you have interests that do not include her?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Codependents are always the last to know


For years I thought I was just being a good, supportive guy... like the ones in the chick flicks... only more handsome... oh wait - that last part was an embellishment


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> For years I thought I was just being a good, supportive guy... like the ones in the chick flicks... only more handsome... oh wait - that last part was an embellishment


Who's going to tell us?

The other people get whatever they want - AND the opportunity to blame us when it doesn't work out.

Of course, they aren't attracted to our weakness....

And, we eventually figure that out.

Well, at least some of us do.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Who's going to tell us?
> 
> The other people get whatever they want - AND the opportunity to blame us when it doesn't work out.
> 
> Of course, they aren't attracted to our weakness....
> 
> And, we eventually figure that out.
> 
> Well, at least some of us do.


I AM figuring that out.
I think we're gonna be ok eventually. The journey is getting easier though.


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## Mark72

Well, I'll say that a little goes a long way. I took to heart "turning the heat down" and wow - we're getting along pretty famously.
She's even reaching out to me a bit. 
Not yet to where I'd like it to be, or even where we were before. Sex is still a bit on the lower side, but I'll take noticable improvement any day.


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## cdbaker

Hey Mark, ever since finding the link to that "relationship thermostat" post here on your thread 10 days ago or so, I've been trying to do the same thing. It feels sort of like a mini-180. I've basically stopped any form of intimacy or overly loving talk altogether. No hugs, kisses, touches, "I love you's" or even goodnight's before bed or goodbye's before work. Thus far, I haven't seen any improvement. There just hasn't been any of those things for close to ten days now. She's not asking about it, reaching out to me herself, etc. Seems like she just doesn't mind the complete lack of intimacy.


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## Mark72

I'm still a student on this... but from what I'm gathering, she has to feel loved AND safe. It's gonna take some time. If you are anything like me, you smothered her with affection. I look at myself and I see the big abominable snowman that just got Daffy Duck as a "present". "I will love him and squeeze him and call him George"
If you don't know the reference, look it up...
I am no expert on this.. but from what I am gathering - make her feel loved. Don't make her feel suffocated. I would often massage her with the intentions of getting her undressed... Now, if I do, I tell her that I don't expect anything from this, I just want her to know I love her. If I try to do things for brownie points or to "get something" (sex, affection, love, etc) she will see through that and it will be meaningless. If you do things for her, make sure it's for her and not for you.
As far as affection, don't withhold it and have an attitude, just go with the flow. If she doesn't act like she wants it, she doesn't. She knows you want it. If you look like a crackhead and she is your dealer, you won't be appealing to her.
Keep being positive, upbeat, playful... Just turn down the thermostat and see if she gets comfortable...

Again - I'm no expert - this is just what I'm gathering and trying - and what's helping me.


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## cdbaker

Haha, I like your Daffy Duck reference. From some random brain synapse in the back of my mind, I do remember that.

I'm not really withholding affection, or showing an attitude of any kind. I've just stopped trying to initiate any form of affection. I knew it was always, always me who was reaching out for a hug, leaning in for a kiss, saying "I love you" first, saying "Have a good day!" before leaving or "How was your day?" when I get home, etc. And certainly there hasn't been anything remotely sexual, so that hasn't changed. I have also toned down on my natural habit of always trying to make her completely comfortable. Like not asking her if there is anything I can do at the moment, if she wants anything, surprising her with a favorite dinner, etc. Otherwise I have been just as pleasant as I normally am, just as considerate, friendly, kind, etc. If she asks me if I can do her a favor of some kind, I do it. I'm still just as helpful around the house or with our daughter too.

Now it's another week (I think I last initiated a hug of some kind on Dec. 19th, so we're going on 19 days without a single physical or verbal sign that we are anything more than friends/roommates. I'm thinking I'll give it 30 days, but honestly I don't know how I'll address it even then. (And yes, I'm quite confident that nothing will change in the next 11 days)


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> Haha, I like your Daffy Duck reference. From some random brain synapse in the back of my mind, I do remember that.
> 
> I'm not really withholding affection, or showing an attitude of any kind. I've just stopped trying to initiate any form of affection. I knew it was always, always me who was reaching out for a hug, leaning in for a kiss, saying "I love you" first, saying "Have a good day!" before leaving or "How was your day?" when I get home, etc. And certainly there hasn't been anything remotely sexual, so that hasn't changed. I have also toned down on my natural habit of always trying to make her completely comfortable. Like not asking her if there is anything I can do at the moment, if she wants anything, surprising her with a favorite dinner, etc. Otherwise I have been just as pleasant as I normally am, just as considerate, friendly, kind, etc. If she asks me if I can do her a favor of some kind, I do it. I'm still just as helpful around the house or with our daughter too.
> 
> Now it's another week (I think I last initiated a hug of some kind on Dec. 19th, so we're going on 19 days without a single physical or verbal sign that we are anything more than friends/roommates. I'm thinking I'll give it 30 days, but honestly I don't know how I'll address it even then. (And yes, I'm quite confident that nothing will change in the next 11 days)


Wow... 
Well I hope your plan works for you. I don't know if 30 days would do it. Perhaps if she asked you to do something, you could ask yourself why she couldn't do it. Like if both of you are watching TV, and she asks you to get her a drink - you could reply with, "If it's ok with you, I'm going to just watch this right now" - polite, but firm - not being a jerk, but also not being available to be at her beck and call.
I've tried that a few times. Results have varied. SHe has slowed down on the asking me to do every last thing for her. Most of what she asks now are reasonable requests regarding the baby. She has been quicker to do things for me too. We did have a bit of a setback this weekend but this morning seems to be back on track.


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## cdbaker

Well it hasn't quite gotten to that level of "servitude" lol. If we're both seated comfortably, she usually won't ask me to get up and do something for her unless there is another factor involved like if she is feeling sick, just got home from a long shift from her job while I had the day off, etc. But if I'm up and walking about while she is laying down or something, she might ask if I'd mind getting something for her real quick when I get a chance, with the request usually not being far out of my way. She also likes to "ask without asking", like if she calls out from our room to ask if I am downstairs or not, and when I say no (like if I'm just around the corner) she might respond "Oh ok, nevermind. If you were downstairs I was going to ask if you'd mind grabbing my laptop before you come up to bed." in which case I often might just go ahead and go grab it for her anyway. Lately I haven't been doing so if it really is out of my way.

One positive sign that happened last night in bed, however small, is that right after I rolled over to go to sleep (we'd just finished watching a favorite TV show together before bed) she actually reached over to put her hand on my back and said Goodnight. I nicely said goodnight as well in return, and she removed her hand. Like I said, it's a small thing, but that might be the first time she has initiated any form of affection since she moved back home this past summer.


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## Mark72

It was with me. I'm one of the most passive guys there are. I hate it. I hate the fact that I'm also a bit clumsy and oafish. I hate that I am riddled with anxieties. The combination just puts a big target on me. It screams, "Don't respect me".
So... I'm in a bad position now. Her whole family views me this way. And due to a last minute major issue when we were about to move in October, we are staying with her parents for a few months. 
We had to do this early in our marriage, and we all knew that it would get uncomfortable again... but here we are. I try not to be a burden but now instead of just my wife, I get picked on from all directions. They are good people but it's almost like a primal urge... Anyway, if I try to stand up for myself, they dogpile. I'm the outsider. We get along great under normal circumstances, but now...
Also, my wife is very comfortable there. She doenst want to move anytime soon, citing child care costs being too high. So this past week has been on the downturn. We got along for a while but it's taking its toll


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> It was with me. I'm one of the most passive guys there are. I hate it. I hate the fact that I'm also a bit clumsy and oafish. I hate that I am riddled with anxieties. The combination just puts a big target on me. It screams, "Don't respect me".
> So... I'm in a bad position now. Her whole family views me this way. And due to a last minute major issue when we were about to move in October, we are staying with her parents for a few months.
> We had to do this early in our marriage, and we all knew that it would get uncomfortable again... but here we are. I try not to be a burden but now instead of just my wife, I get picked on from all directions. They are good people but it's almost like a primal urge... Anyway, if I try to stand up for myself, they dogpile. I'm the outsider. We get along great under normal circumstances, but now...
> Also, my wife is very comfortable there. She doenst want to move anytime soon, citing child care costs being too high. So this past week has been on the downturn. We got along for a while but it's taking its toll


What are you going to do about it?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> What are you going to do about it?


I'm open to suggestion


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I'm open to suggestion


Practice setting boundaries.


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## Mark72

Well, I got a nice bomb last night. I started massaging my wife, making it obvious that it was a seduction attempt - she quickly blocked it, stating that she isn't in the mood. I snapped a quick, "That's been happening a lot recently", not really thinking about how weak it sounded. 
She informed me that she has lost all attraction to me, and was faking it ever since we reconciled.
Now, I know that statement wasn't true - I know her well enough to know that she is really good at saying things to try to hurt people - especially me.
But I can see how along the way I forgot all that I learned on this thread... 
My anxiety levels are back up through the roof. I refuse to take anti-anxiety meds, but I may consider them because I hate being a big ball of nerves all the time.

She said she is staying in the marriage because it's the right thing to do, and that the only reason she came back the last time was because her mother convinced her to. Again, that was a stab at me. But, the clear thing is that I am back into full codependant mode. She actually used that word and told me how unattractive it is....

So, I am going back to IC. She refuses to go. She "doesn't have the time" and doesn't have the desire to make our marriage better. Looks like I am going to be doing the work. Sad thing is, today is my son's 5th birthday and tomorrow is our 9th wedding anniversary. I gotta decide whether or not to give her the roses and card that I got for her... 

This ain't my first rodeo but dammit it's gotta change.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well, I got a nice bomb last night. I started massaging my wife, making it obvious that it was a seduction attempt - she quickly blocked it, stating that she isn't in the mood. I snapped a quick, "That's been happening a lot recently", not really thinking about how weak it sounded.
> She informed me that she has lost all attraction to me, and was faking it ever since we reconciled.
> Now, I know that statement wasn't true - I know her well enough to know that she is really good at saying things to try to hurt people - especially me.
> But I can see how along the way I forgot all that I learned on this thread...
> My anxiety levels are back up through the roof. I refuse to take anti-anxiety meds, but I may consider them because I hate being a big ball of nerves all the time.
> 
> She said she is staying in the marriage because it's the right thing to do, and that the only reason she came back the last time was because her mother convinced her to. Again, that was a stab at me. But, the clear thing is that I am back into full codependant mode. She actually used that word and told me how unattractive it is....
> 
> So, I am going back to IC. She refuses to go. She "doesn't have the time" and doesn't have the desire to make our marriage better. Looks like I am going to be doing the work. Sad thing is, today is my son's 5th birthday and tomorrow is our 9th wedding anniversary. I gotta decide whether or not to give her the roses and card that I got for her...
> 
> This ain't my first rodeo but dammit it's gotta change.


Mark,

You don't need her to go to therapy.

Are you pursuing any hobbies?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Mark,
> 
> You don't need her to go to therapy.
> 
> Are you pursuing any hobbies?


Meh - nothing seems appealing right now. When my anxieties go full swing, I cannot concentrate on anything but what's causing the anxieties. 

Plus I'm broke - I need to find something cheap I guess.
I have video games and normally I could play for hours but again I don't get much of a mental break when I am like this.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Meh - nothing seems appealing right now. When my anxieties go full swing, I cannot concentrate on anything but what's causing the anxieties.
> 
> Plus I'm broke - I need to find something cheap I guess.
> I have video games and normally I could play for hours but again I don't get much of a mental break when I am like this.


You exercising?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> You exercising?


No.
I sit behind a desk.
I started to the other day. I don't follow through.
I have a few flaws to overcome. But I have no excuse for not doing pushups and situps daily.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> No.
> I sit behind a desk.
> I started to the other day. I don't follow through.
> I have a few flaws to overcome. But I have no excuse for not doing pushups and situps daily.


Do you live in a climate that would allow you to walk at lunch?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Do you live in a climate that would allow you to walk at lunch?


I do that... it's a really big building so I can walk inside the halls. Not much more excercise than that though


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I do that... it's a really big building so I can walk inside the halls. Not much more excercise than that though


Do more.

Take off 20 pounds.

Set your goal, and mean it.

Do not quit until it's done.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Do more.
> 
> Take off 20 pounds.
> 
> Set your goal, and mean it.
> 
> Do not quit until it's done.


I also need to work on these freakin anxieties. The ball in my stomach is smaller this time around but it still sucks


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## Mark72

To make matters worse, today is our 9th anniversary. 
On a positive note, I took a little initiative. She informed me that she is on call Tuesday, and that would usually mean that she wants me to change my schedule to pick up the kids. The thing is, I work late on Mondays and Tuesdays. She told me last week that she wouldn't have any more Tuesdays on call - but today told me that next week she is. I told her that I have an appointment (counseling session) on Tuesday. She said she can't ask anyone to switch her. I told her that she would have to figure it out because I have to work late. She told me she will try to switch... 

Usually it would be me telling her Ok, I'll work around my plans to accomodate you...
Yes, I know the kids are involved... but I actually showed assertiveness for once, without being aggressive.
Kinda proud of myself.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> To make matters worse, today is our 9th anniversary.
> On a positive note, I took a little initiative. She informed me that she is on call Tuesday, and that would usually mean that she wants me to change my schedule to pick up the kids. The thing is, I work late on Mondays and Tuesdays. She told me last week that she wouldn't have any more Tuesdays on call - but today told me that next week she is. I told her that I have an appointment (counseling session) on Tuesday. She said she can't ask anyone to switch her. I told her that she would have to figure it out because I have to work late. She told me she will try to switch...
> 
> Usually it would be me telling her Ok, I'll work around my plans to accomodate you...
> Yes, I know the kids are involved... but I actually showed assertiveness for once, without being aggressive.
> Kinda proud of myself.


Show us it was no accident.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Show us it was no accident.


Well sir, I'd really like to flip the switch after being this way my whole life... we'll see how it goes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark, some years back I found myself 400 miles from my nice house and my lake place. I had it all, but changed jobs and lived for two years, alone, in my 20 foot, weekender 5th wheel. Everything had spiraled out of my control. I felt like I could change nothing. 

But a part of me, that stubborn spark I've always had, told me "you have to take control of ONE thing in your life. One thing that nobody else can take from you no matter what!" I thought about it for a while. I realized I was drinking too much and had gotten fat. So I quit drinking (not an alcoholic so it wasn't that hard to do; just stop buying booze) and started exercising. 

I lost weight, got in great shape, felt better, looked better, was stronger, faster, better than before (without paying $6 million ha ha). And *nobody *could take that away from me. As a result, other things in my life started spiraling UP. It's a natural progression that I had not anticipated, but was happy to reap. 

You have to convince yourself not that you _want _to be a certain guy, but that you _are _that guy. Set goals, as if they are now, not the future. This is a way to program your subconscious, which does not have the temporal perception our conscious mind has. Say, or post on the fridge, "I am happy to bench 200 pounds by x date." Note the "I am" part; that's the mindset for your subconscious. If you say "I will be" then that's always in the future, see? Always. I would set dates for being a certain weight, and I always somehow managed to meet those goals. Then it was body fat percentage. As I learned more, I wanted to do more, for myself. It was a total change, and it came from within. 

You are only stuck if you believe you are stuck. Change from within shows on the outside. Your wife will see this, too. It's not about the alpha male golden triad or any of that. It's about how you feel about yourself. When you feel good about yourself, others are naturally attracted to you. Do it.


----------



## LanieB

Hi, Mark. I've read most of your thread now. I'm sorry you're in such a sad situation. Right now all you can do is work on yourself - until your wife decides she wants to at least TRY to work on the marriage too. A one-sided effort from you isn't going to change anything. All it will do is make your anxiety worse. I know it's not easy to let go of the anxiety. I am also in a really bad situation myself, so I do understand the anxiety and depression and helplessness.

Having tried medication in the past for depression, and experiencing HORRIBLE side-effects from it, I wanted to avoid taking any medication again. However, after a year of nearly-crippling depression/anxiety, I decided enough was enough. I researched some meds and decided to try Wellbutrin, since it seemed to have a good rate of success with helping depression, and in the majority of people, there aren't bad side-effects. I have been on the Wellbutrin since June, and it has really helped. So you might consider doing some research yourself and see if you think meds could help you. Sometimes we just need some help getting through the really bad times. Being so "low" can make it nearly impossible to make decisions and to work on your own issues. So, this is just something to consider.

I have discovered that it's good to make small baby-step goals for yourself. It can be anything little thing, but find something that will be easy to accomplish and then do it. One little positive thing at a time will make you start to feel better. It can be things like - - doing 50 sit-ups and 30 push-ups every morning or eliminating all sugar just for today or complimenting 5 people every day. Some of my goals have been to get my resume' together, starting actively searching for jobs every day, getting on the elliptical for 30 minutes every other day. 

Do you have any good friends to talk to IRL? You need to be doing a lot of that. I do realize though, that you don't want to wear out your friends by talking about your marriage all the time, so this place is a great place to come and vent - as you know.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well sir, I'd really like to flip the switch after being this way my whole life... we'll see how it goes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you at 50k?


----------



## Mark72

LanieB said:


> Hi, Mark. I've read most of your thread now. I'm sorry you're in such a sad situation. Right now all you can do is work on yourself - until your wife decides she wants to at least TRY to work on the marriage too. A one-sided effort from you isn't going to change anything. All it will do is make your anxiety worse. I know it's not easy to let go of the anxiety. I am also in a really bad situation myself, so I do understand the anxiety and depression and helplessness
> 
> Having tried medication in the past for depression, and experiencing HORRIBLE side-effects from it, I wanted to avoid taking any medication again. However, after a year of nearly-crippling depression/anxiety, I decided enough was enough. I researched some meds and decided to try Wellbutrin, since it seemed to have a good rate of success with helping depression, and in the majority of people, there aren't bad side-effects. I have been on the Wellbutrin since June, and it has really helped. So you might consider doing some research yourself and see if you think meds could help you. Sometimes we just need some help getting through the really bad times. Being so "low" can make it nearly impossible to make decisions and to work on your own issues. So, this is just something to consider.
> 
> I have discovered that it's good to make small baby-step goals for yourself. It can be anything little thing, but find something that will be easy to accomplish and then do it. One little positive thing at a time will make you start to feel better. It can be things like - - doing 50 sit-ups and 30 push-ups every morning or eliminating all sugar just for today or complimenting 5 people every day. Some of my goals have been to get my resume' together, starting actively searching for jobs every day, getting on the elliptical for 30 minutes every other day.
> 
> Do you have any good friends to talk to IRL? You need to be doing a lot of that. I do realize though, that you don't want to wear out your friends by talking about your marriage all the time, so this place is a great place to come and vent - as you know.


I actualy talk to my pastor a lot. He has a marriage building ministry so that makes it nice. He has a lot on his plate so I can't talk to him all the time but he makes time to listen when he can. Starting IC again Tuesday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Are you at 50k?


Uh huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Uh huh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That phrase surprises you?

Let me put it this way. When you're interacting with her, are you able to "see" your interaction like you were a fly on the wall of the room? Do you notice how her words and actions impact you emotionally?


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## LanieB

Conrad said:


> That phrase surprises you?
> 
> Let me put it this way. When you're interacting with her, are you able to "see" your interaction like you were a fly on the wall of the room? Do you notice how her words and actions impact you emotionally?


Is this in regard to doing the 180? Kind of detaching and becoming less and less emotionally involved?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> That phrase surprises you?
> 
> Let me put it this way. When you're interacting with her, are you able to "see" your interaction like you were a fly on the wall of the room? Do you notice how her words and actions impact you emotionally?


Unfortunately, not at the time. Usually about 5 minutes after I can see what happened and understand it a bit. The way my mind works during these times is kinda like that scene from Terminator, where Arnold has a list of responses - then decides which one to use... I am just really bad at picking the right one.


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## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Mark, some years back I found myself 400 miles from my nice house and my lake place. I had it all, but changed jobs and lived for two years, alone, in my 20 foot, weekender 5th wheel. Everything had spiraled out of my control. I felt like I could change nothing.
> 
> But a part of me, that stubborn spark I've always had, told me "you have to take control of ONE thing in your life. One thing that nobody else can take from you no matter what!" I thought about it for a while. I realized I was drinking too much and had gotten fat. So I quit drinking (not an alcoholic so it wasn't that hard to do; just stop buying booze) and started exercising.
> 
> I lost weight, got in great shape, felt better, looked better, was stronger, faster, better than before (without paying $6 million ha ha). And *nobody *could take that away from me. As a result, other things in my life started spiraling UP. It's a natural progression that I had not anticipated, but was happy to reap.
> 
> You have to convince yourself not that you _want _to be a certain guy, but that you _are _that guy. Set goals, as if they are now, not the future. This is a way to program your subconscious, which does not have the temporal perception our conscious mind has. Say, or post on the fridge, "I am happy to bench 200 pounds by x date." Note the "I am" part; that's the mindset for your subconscious. If you say "I will be" then that's always in the future, see? Always. I would set dates for being a certain weight, and I always somehow managed to meet those goals. Then it was body fat percentage. As I learned more, I wanted to do more, for myself. It was a total change, and it came from within.
> 
> You are only stuck if you believe you are stuck. Change from within shows on the outside. Your wife will see this, too. It's not about the alpha male golden triad or any of that. It's about how you feel about yourself. When you feel good about yourself, others are naturally attracted to you. Do it.


This is really tough for me. I start like gangbusters - if I join a gym, I will go. I had gone for nearly a year at one point, but when we split at that time, my membership lapsed and I never went back. I think now I just gotta put it in the budget and make sure I make time to go. Being a cardiac patient, I need the exercise anyway.


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Unfortunately, not at the time. Usually about 5 minutes after I can see what happened and understand it a bit. The way my mind works during these times is kinda like that scene from Terminator, where Arnold has a list of responses - then decides which one to use... I am just really bad at picking the right one.


You need to keep your composure and choose wisely.

She loses respect for you when you lose your cool.

And, she is like a pick-axe. She is looking for the button on the soda machine that dispenses her favorite flavor.

Deny that flavor to her.

This makes you interesting and mysterious.

Implement this precept and you will see results.


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## Mark72

This is tough. I am really trying to be assertive without being aggressive. 
I'm meeting with resistance. I have not blown my cool but I am getting quite frustrated... it's hard to mask.
I know this is going to be a challenge. I know that she is going to test me and push me. Trying to figure out the best things to say is tough because I am so used to either being ultra passive or ultra aggressive (when only trying to be assertive)
This is gonna take practice.


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> This is tough. I am really trying to be assertive without being aggressive.
> I'm meeting with resistance. I have not blown my cool but I am getting quite frustrated... it's hard to mask.
> I know this is going to be a challenge. I know that she is going to test me and push me. Trying to figure out the best things to say is tough because I am so used to either being ultra passive or ultra aggressive (when only trying to be assertive)
> This is gonna take practice.


What behavior does she use to punish you?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> What behavior does she use to punish you?


Treats me like a piece of crap. Usually it subsides after I beg for a long time. I have not been begging. I have been telling her that this isn't acceptable behavior and that I deserve respect.

It is answered with "Whatever" without a big argument. It's when I slip and ask something like, "What's it going to take for us to act like we're married again?" that she starts really pouring on the daggers. Last night I found out that one of my friends from my bible study passed away. He was 36 and all I know is it was natural causes. I got pretty emotional about it and asked her that question. She answered, "An act of God is the only thing that will change it". 
I just decided to not say a word to her after that. Today she wasn't overly rude but still no sign of anything positive. 

Her parents (again, we are staying in their house for the time being) are not in favor of how she is being toward me. It is causing friction between her and her mother (her mom is a lot like me). 

This would be so much easier if I didn't care. Maybe I do need to get on anxiety medication. I hate the thought of it though.


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## doubletrouble

Medication can make the effect feel less harsh, but it only masks the pain. You may be better off feeling all this in order to do what's best for your life. I am no masochist, but I druther feel the pain; it motivates me in some ways.


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## Mark72

Just had a long talk with her mom. She initiated it. She feels that w never got past catching me with the porn and webcam chat stuff from 5 years ago. 
She said that w felt pressure from her and the pregnancy to go back to me. The second split she also felt pressure from her mom...


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## cdbaker

"An act of God is the only thing that will change it"

Yikes man. I really think you've gotta go stone cold 180. Like really just focusing on yourself completely. Stop doing nice things for her, stop speaking with her aside from necessary communication, stop asking her for permission to do something if it only involves you, etc. Don't tell her what you're doing. Ultimately if she forces you to respond, you might even just say that you are going to focus on you, improving yourself and preparing yourself for whatever the future may bring with or without her. It's not about punishing her, it's about improving yourself and showing her that you're willing to move on without her and that you'll be able to do so without difficulty.

You can still be polite of course, no need to give her the silent treatment, but just stop being interested in her.

I really don't think there is anything you can do to make her rediscover her love and appreciation for you outside of starting a cold 180 and possibly filing for divorce for emphasis.


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> "An act of God is the only thing that will change it"
> 
> Yikes man. I really think you've gotta go stone cold 180. Like really just focusing on yourself completely. Stop doing nice things for her, stop speaking with her aside from necessary communication, stop asking her for permission to do something if it only involves you, etc. Don't tell her what you're doing. Ultimately if she forces you to respond, you might even just say that you are going to focus on you, improving yourself and preparing yourself for whatever the future may bring with or without her. It's not about punishing her, it's about improving yourself and showing her that you're willing to move on without her and that you'll be able to do so without difficulty.
> 
> You can still be polite of course, no need to give her the silent treatment, but just stop being interested in her.
> 
> I really don't think there is anything you can do to make her rediscover her love and appreciation for you outside of starting a cold 180 and possibly filing for divorce for emphasis.


The only question I have about the 180 is how do I effectively phrase going out when it comes to the kids.
I can't assume that her parents will watch them. They are all young. I rarely get out anyway. I'm used to having to get her OK to do anything. I hate living this way, but don't know how to make the transition.
She is good at finding leverage on me.


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## cdbaker

I guess I'm confused... It sounds like you are the one who always watches the kids? Is your wife never home and able to watch the kids? I'd say that if you know your wife is home, then just let her know in advance that you'll be going out at X time/day. You can choose to let her know where if you want to, but I wouldn't unless she insists. If you want to go out when she isn't free to watch the kids, then try to find someone else who can watch them and just do it, no permission really needed. I've gotta believe that your wife is around most of the time for that if need be, yes?

But don't dwell on just one tiny aspect of this. You don't even have to go out often. You can just go to a different room and start working out, or jog up and down the street, or do an activity you enjoy without concern for her needs that she can take care of herself. Like if you normally ask her every day what she'd like for dinner and then make/buy it for her, just stop asking her one day and plan something that you or the kids like. I'm not saying don't make anything for her as well, but just stop letting her dictate what it will be. If you're used to bringing her a glass of water before bed, stop. If you're used to getting the kids ready for school in the morning by yourself so that she can sleep in, just inform her that you'll need her help with the kids in the morning from now on. (In a fair way. Like she makes their lunches while you get them dressed and brushing their teeth) If your used to going to bed at the same time she does because she used to prefer that, just start staying up a bit later (if you want to that is) to read a book, watch a movie, play a video game, etc. Show that if she doesn't love you or respect you, then you aren't going to bend over backwards for her anymore. Basically, just be a roommate to her. Ask yourself if you wouldn't do task X for a male roommate, then you shouldn't do it for her.

Again it's not about punishing her, it's about focusing on yourself first and foremost, with the added benefit of showing her that you don't need her, can stand up for yourself, and won't settle for her.


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> I guess I'm confused... It sounds like you are the one who always watches the kids? Is your wife never home and able to watch the kids? I'd say that if you know your wife is home, then just let her know in advance that you'll be going out at X time/day. You can choose to let her know where if you want to, but I wouldn't unless she insists. If you want to go out when she isn't free to watch the kids, then try to find someone else who can watch them and just do it, no permission really needed. I've gotta believe that your wife is around most of the time for that if need be, yes?
> 
> But don't dwell on just one tiny aspect of this. You don't even have to go out often. You can just go to a different room and start working out, or jog up and down the street, or do an activity you enjoy without concern for her needs that she can take care of herself. Like if you normally ask her every day what she'd like for dinner and then make/buy it for her, just stop asking her one day and plan something that you or the kids like. I'm not saying don't make anything for her as well, but just stop letting her dictate what it will be. If you're used to bringing her a glass of water before bed, stop. If you're used to getting the kids ready for school in the morning by yourself so that she can sleep in, just inform her that you'll need her help with the kids in the morning from now on. (In a fair way. Like she makes their lunches while you get them dressed and brushing their teeth) If your used to going to bed at the same time she does because she used to prefer that, just start staying up a bit later (if you want to that is) to read a book, watch a movie, play a video game, etc. Show that if she doesn't love you or respect you, then you aren't going to bend over backwards for her anymore. Basically, just be a roommate to her. Ask yourself if you wouldn't do task X for a male roommate, then you shouldn't do it for her.
> 
> Again it's not about punishing her, it's about focusing on yourself first and foremost, with the added benefit of showing her that you don't need her, can stand up for yourself, and won't settle for her.


She uses the kids as leverage. Most of what she asks me to do involves them anymore. She knows that if we split, I'd get over her eventually but I wouldn't get over losing access to the kids all the time. It's he one angle that she will always have even if I try to display some backbone.


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Treats me like a piece of crap. Usually it subsides after I beg for a long time. I have not been begging. I have been telling her that this isn't acceptable behavior and that I deserve respect.
> 
> It is answered with "Whatever" without a big argument. It's when I slip and ask something like, "What's it going to take for us to act like we're married again?" that she starts really pouring on the daggers. Last night I found out that one of my friends from my bible study passed away. He was 36 and all I know is it was natural causes. I got pretty emotional about it and asked her that question. She answered, "An act of God is the only thing that will change it".
> I just decided to not say a word to her after that. Today she wasn't overly rude but still no sign of anything positive.
> 
> Her parents (again, we are staying in their house for the time being) are not in favor of how she is being toward me. It is causing friction between her and her mother (her mom is a lot like me).
> 
> This would be so much easier if I didn't care. Maybe I do need to get on anxiety medication. I hate the thought of it though.


So, the torrent happens after you make the needy comment.

Is it possible not to make it?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> So, the torrent happens after you make the needy comment.
> 
> Is it possible not to make it?


Sometimes I don't even know what to say...
It's like a starving man really wants a sandwich and he's probably gonna talk about it. 

It's really hard for me not to say anything when she's not in the mood for a few weeks. It's just so different than years ago... She was always HD and initiated a lot. 

At this point, nothing I do is a positive action. But I'll TRY to remain silent and not reach out to her. I'll try to be a room mate. I'll try not to be a door mat. 

Jeez this is so easy when I look at other men posting the same thing about me. The answers are all so clear. But somehow my scenario is "different" or "that wouldn't work for me"

THat's what is in my head...


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Sometimes I don't even know what to say...
> It's like a starving man really wants a sandwich and he's probably gonna talk about it.
> 
> It's really hard for me not to say anything when she's not in the mood for a few weeks. It's just so different than years ago... She was always HD and initiated a lot.
> 
> At this point, nothing I do is a positive action. But I'll TRY to remain silent and not reach out to her. I'll try to be a room mate. I'll try not to be a door mat.
> 
> Jeez this is so easy when I look at other men posting the same thing about me. The answers are all so clear. But somehow my scenario is "different" or "that wouldn't work for me"
> 
> THat's what is in my head...


Yet, following your instincts has you ending up on this board.

The needy comments are where the smackdown really happens. It's a trigger for her.

Do something else when you feel like making them - like leave the house.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Yet, following your instincts has you ending up on this board.
> 
> The needy comments are where the smackdown really happens. It's a trigger for her.
> 
> Do something else when you feel like making them - like leave the house.


Well it's not just the comments... It's the need for physical touch.
That one is harder to overcome... Usually the comments come from a result of a disgusted look or a push away when I try something.


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## Mark72

First day back to IC today. It went well.... 
This morning I saw that W had posted a link on her FB to the video "Say Something" by Great Big World.

I've known this woman for 10 years (exactly to the date today) and I am not sure if she did that to hurt me, inspire me, or to convince herself to move on...


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well it's not just the comments... It's the need for physical touch.
> That one is harder to overcome... Usually the comments come from a result of a disgusted look or a push away when I try something.


In other words, you're giving her an emotional "thank you" for ignoring you and treating you like dirt.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> In other words, you're giving her an emotional "thank you" for ignoring you and treating you like dirt.


Yeah, you could look at it that way.
Fact is... I _am _needy. I _am_ clingy. 
I don't want to be this dependant on physical touch to satisfy my anxiety for not being loved. Pretending will only get me so far... sooner or later, I'll revert back. I need a permenant solution.


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Yeah, you could look at it that way.
> Fact is... I _am _needy. I _am_ clingy.
> I don't want to be this dependant on physical touch to satisfy my anxiety for not being loved. Pretending will only get me so far... sooner or later, I'll revert back. I need a permenant solution.


IC is a good route to learn how to love yourself. But, you must get a counselor that challenges you.

Posting here can help also. Reading the stories of others builds the critical mass of insight necessary for self-revelation.


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## Mark72

I can't beleive how pathetic I am.
After the baby's 2nd night feeding she got back into bed and was toward the middle of the bed. She had her back toward me and her butt was against my back. 
My first thought was "Oh great - she's initiating contact, time to turn over and put my arms around her..."
I didn't make a move but that just shows me how needy and insecure I really am. Perhaps I am hopeless. Even Chuck Norris couldn't help me now LOL


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I can't beleive how pathetic I am.
> After the baby's 2nd night feeding she got back into bed and was toward the middle of the bed. She had her back toward me and her butt was against my back.
> My first thought was "Oh great - she's initiating contact, time to turn over and put my arms around her..."
> I didn't make a move but that just shows me how needy and insecure I really am. Perhaps I am hopeless. Even Chuck Norris couldn't help me now LOL


Believe it or not, you actually took the first step out of the weeds.

Notice how silly your emotions are. It's the first step to self-regulation.


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## Mark72

:scratchhead:


Conrad said:


> Believe it or not, you actually took the first step out of the weeds.
> 
> Notice how silly your emotions are. It's the first step to self-regulation.


But how long can I ignore the emotions though? They are pretty strong...


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> But how long can I ignore the emotions though? They are pretty strong...


The direct answer is....

If you love yourself more, the emotions subside.

Does that make sense?


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> The direct answer is....
> 
> If you love yourself more, the emotions subside.
> 
> Does that make sense?


Not really. Guess the journey will reveal that statement...


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Not really. Guess the journey will reveal that statement...


It also helps to have a safe man in the process.

A place to dump the neediness and take your own temperature.

It's best if that's a same-sex friend.

Or "someone" on an internet forum.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> It also helps to have a safe man in the process.
> 
> A place to dump the neediness and take your own temperature.
> 
> It's best if that's a same-sex friend.
> 
> Or "someone" on an internet forum.


Any volunteers?


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Any volunteers?


Anytime


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Anytime


Much appreciated... I know, what you always wanted was a needy dude messaging you every 10 minutes...


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## doubletrouble

This thread seems a good place.


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## Mark72

When I went to the counselor yesterday, she told me that anxiety and depression can be combatted with exercise.
I am seeing a common thread - my cardiologist, endocrinologist, PCP, phsychologist, and TAM supporters have all told me to get off my butt.
Yesterday I did a 1.5 mile walk. I have done the same today. Tonight, I am starting calisthenics... I wonder if I can do 50 pushups in a day... LOL
Also, I read 4 chapters of His Needs/Her Needs in the past 2 days. I have been attending bible study since the separation in October 2012 but I am actually going to be studying on my own daily. I am on a reading plan and get daily reminders on my bible app on my phone. 
Project Mark is beginning. If I can change some unhealthy "needy" habits, and keep the habits that I started trying to change yesterday, I might be an attractive guy even to my wife in a few months. By summer, she may even start getting jealous at the pool...


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> When I went to the counselor yesterday, she told me that anxiety and depression can be combatted with exercise.
> I am seeing a common thread - my cardiologist, endocrinologist, PCP, phsychologist, and TAM supporters have all told me to get off my butt.
> Yesterday I did a 1.5 mile walk. I have done the same today. Tonight, I am starting calisthenics... I wonder if I can do 50 pushups in a day... LOL
> Also, I read 4 chapters of His Needs/Her Needs in the past 2 days. I have been attending bible study since the separation in October 2012 but I am actually going to be studying on my own daily. I am on a reading plan and get daily reminders on my bible app on my phone.
> Project Mark is beginning. If I can change some unhealthy "needy" habits, and keep the habits that I started trying to change yesterday, I might be an attractive guy even to my wife in a few months. By summer, she may even start getting jealous at the pool...


Don't push the exercise too much.

If you do, you'll be tempted to quit.

Just a gradual build.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Don't push the exercise too much.
> 
> If you do, you'll be tempted to quit.
> 
> Just a gradual build.


I'm 42. 
If I just half ass it, I WILL quit.
I have about 15 broken resolutions to exercise a year.
I'll argue this one with ya... What I've been doing so far hasn't worked - time to go a different route. (I'll still listen to your other advice though)


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## cdbaker

I don't think it is weakness to want or need physical touch/contact/intimacy. Wanting to hug her or be hugged by her isn't a weakness or pathetic. Granted, if you are needing to refrain from acting on such desires then naturally you need to hold back. But we humans are programmed to need emotional and physical connections with our significant others. You can't love yourself enough to overcome that need in the long run.

So I don't think there is anything wrong with having those feelings. I don't think there is anything wrong or pathetic with your thinking about wrapping your arm around her in bed when her butt touched your back. I would surely think or hope the exact same thing. Under normal circumstances of course, you could do so. Under your circumstances however, you need to refrain. If you had indeed wrapped your arm around her, then that would have been weakness, not being able to stop yourself from acting on your feelings when you know that you shouldn't right now. Then you'd also likely feel the pain of rejection again.

So don't beat yourself up too much. Make sure you are doing the right things, but you can't help but feel the way you do.


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## Mark72

cdbaker said:


> I don't think it is weakness to want or need physical touch/contact/intimacy. Wanting to hug her or be hugged by her isn't a weakness or pathetic. Granted, if you are needing to refrain from acting on such desires then naturally you need to hold back. But we humans are programmed to need emotional and physical connections with our significant others. You can't love yourself enough to overcome that need in the long run.
> 
> So I don't think there is anything wrong with having those feelings. I don't think there is anything wrong or pathetic with your thinking about wrapping your arm around her in bed when her butt touched your back. I would surely think or hope the exact same thing. Under normal circumstances of course, you could do so. Under your circumstances however, you need to refrain. If you had indeed wrapped your arm around her, then that would have been weakness, not being able to stop yourself from acting on your feelings when you know that you shouldn't right now. Then you'd also likely feel the pain of rejection again.
> 
> So don't beat yourself up too much. Make sure you are doing the right things, but you can't help but feel the way you do.


Last night I told her that the rudeness needs to stop. She agreed to be civil to me but has no desire to treat me like a husband. She acts like everything is wonderful with everyone but her mother and I (her mom is laying the guilt trip on her for being the way she is to me). 
I'm feeling numb at the moment. Time to get some work done


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Last night I told her that the rudeness needs to stop. She agreed to be civil to me but has no desire to treat me like a husband. She acts like everything is wonderful with everyone but her mother and I (her mom is laying the guilt trip on her for being the way she is to me).
> I'm feeling numb at the moment. Time to get some work done


Time to stand up.

Quit talking about what you're going to do differently and start doing it.

Take the focus off of her.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Time to stand up.
> 
> Quit talking about what you're going to do differently and start doing it.
> 
> Take the focus off of her.


everything is starting to get a little bit clearer now. She has basically said that she cannot get over the porn use from 5 years ago and especially the webcam chats that I had with other girls. She is unable to forgive and move on.wow I think that there is some truth to that. I also think that my neediness has played a factor here.I learn from our last split up that emotion can certainly make you think you feel a certain way and that you know why but the reason could be something completely different. I'm just going to keep trying to do the right thing and just doing the next right thing every time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> everything is starting to get a little bit clearer now. She has basically said that she cannot get over the porn use from 5 years ago and especially the webcam chats that I had with other girls. She is unable to forgive and move on.wow I think that there is some truth to that. I also think that my neediness has played a factor here.I learn from our last split up that emotion can certainly make you think you feel a certain way and that you know why but the reason could be something completely different. I'm just going to keep trying to do the right thing and just doing the next right thing every time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem is rarely where we think/say it is.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> The problem is rarely where we think/say it is.


I can see a good part of it stemming from her inability to get past that. At some point it has to be addressed and dealt with. Hard to know how to gain trust when she has access to everything except this site... Emails, phone, texts, facebook - she has the passwords. This is my own personal sanctuary though... 
Anyway - she promised to be civil to me 2 nights ago. Last night she was. Mostly civil. A little condescending tone once but an improvement I guess. I really really need to change my mindset because my instincts are terrible. She gives a command, my first instinct is to comply... I have to have a pause and review process. She phrases things "Would you please..." for the most part, but I still need to be able to think about the requests and say, "No - that doesn't suit _my_ best interest"
That would be a huge step - but the review process, to know which requests I should accept and which ones I should deny, is something I haven't really developed.
I think I am going to need a team of psychologists to make a dent in my psyche...


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I can see a good part of it stemming from her inability to get past that. At some point it has to be addressed and dealt with. Hard to know how to gain trust when she has access to everything except this site... Emails, phone, texts, facebook - she has the passwords. This is my own personal sanctuary though...
> Anyway - she promised to be civil to me 2 nights ago. Last night she was. Mostly civil. A little condescending tone once but an improvement I guess. I really really need to change my mindset because my instincts are terrible. She gives a command, my first instinct is to comply... I have to have a pause and review process. She phrases things "Would you please..." for the most part, but I still need to be able to think about the requests and say, "No - that doesn't suit _my_ best interest"
> That would be a huge step - but the review process, to know which requests I should accept and which ones I should deny, is something I haven't really developed.
> I think I am going to need a team of psychologists to make a dent in my psyche...


Mark,

I'm going to be direct.

The real issues aren't what she says they are.

They're that she has lost much of her respect and attraction for you.

Dealing with the supposed "wrongs" you've committed in the past will only amplify her resentment.

Chart a new course, starting today.


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## Tron

Conrad said:


> *The real issues aren't what she says they are.
> 
> They're that she has lost much of her respect and attraction for you.
> 
> Dealing with the supposed "wrongs" you've committed in the past will only amplify her resentment.*


:iagree:


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## Mark72

I really want to be the new guy. I am really struggling with the on-the-spot decisions on how to handle things. I hate being passive. I can't take being a doormat anymore. When I've tried to break out of it before, I was being overly aggressive and no one took me seriously. 
I want to be effective, not just viewed as an angry wimp rather than a quiet wimp.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I really want to be the new guy. I am really struggling with the on-the-spot decisions on how to handle things. I hate being passive. I can't take being a doormat anymore. When I've tried to break out of it before, I was being overly aggressive and no one took me seriously.
> I want to be effective, not just viewed as an angry wimp rather than a quiet wimp.


Read all these links.

It will become very clear.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## cdbaker

I think Conrad hit the nail on the head here.

If ever she brings up the past porn issues and such, you can respond in a way that addresses it but doesn't show that you feel that you still owe her anything, which would be weakness, and incredibly unattractive. I'd go with something like:

"I understand that I hurt you back then. I've also taken responsibility for that behavior, I have addressed the problem and it has not been an issue since then. I did everything I could to make it right with you as well. There is nothing more I can say or do about it, so if you are still struggling with that issue, then you need to get help for dealing with it. If you are unwilling to do so, then our marriage will be irreparably broken and we should discuss plans for divorce.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Read all these links.
> 
> It will become very clear.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


I have a PDF of NMMNG


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I have a PDF of NMMNG


Try this:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...-20-plus-years-very-happy-husband-writes.html


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Try this:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...-20-plus-years-very-happy-husband-writes.html


funny thing is... my wife was always bossy and stubborn... even as a child.... I was always passive. Her dad is the dominant patriarch so I'm sure that's what she was hoping I would blossom into. I was always a mamas boy.... and when she died 6 years ago maybe I tried to put my wife in her place... Again.... the transition is tough for me. She likes to be bossy with everyone. Grrrrrrr
U
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> funny thing is... my wife was always bossy and stubborn... even as a child.... I was always passive. Her dad is the dominant patriarch so I'm sure that's what she was hoping I would blossom into. I was always a mamas boy.... and when she died 6 years ago maybe I tried to put my wife in her place... Again.... the transition is tough for me. She likes to be bossy with everyone. Grrrrrrr
> U
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mark,

It's not too late to be who you were born to be.

That choice is yours.

I'm living proof that BBW is right.


----------



## Mark72

I'm also using this page as a journal. Having a really rough day today. I'm on my way to a friends funeral, and on the way I stopped at an old house where I used to live to see what it looks like now. It wasn't intentional but I started reminiscing about the time when I met my wife because I live there when we met.another part of this route is driving by the cemetery where my mom is buried.I'm not yet at the funeral but I don't think I'm going to be in good shape when I get out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I'm also using this page as a journal. Having a really rough day today. I'm on my way to a friends funeral, and on the way I stopped at an old house where I used to live to see what it looks like now. It wasn't intentional but I started reminiscing about the time when I met my wife because I live there when we met.another part of this route is driving by the cemetery where my mom is buried.I'm not yet at the funeral but I don't think I'm going to be in good shape when I get out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Try this mental discipline.

Observe yourself.

Lift yourself out of the weeds of the sadness and take note of which body parts it impacts and how you're affected by it.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Try this mental discipline.
> 
> Observe yourself.
> 
> Lift yourself out of the weeds of the sadness and take note of which body parts it impacts and how you're affected by it.


actually tried a very similar exercise with my counselor on Tuesday. I wasn't able to do that. Right nowI am a mess. I am going to stop by moms grave because I haven't been there in a while
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> actually tried a very similar exercise with my counselor on Tuesday. I wasn't able to do that. Right nowI am a mess. I am going to stop by moms grave because I haven't been there in a while
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep making the effort to do that.

It's an exit door from your current misery.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Keep making the effort to do that.
> 
> It's an exit door from your current misery.


she was in rare form mean today. It was pretty bad. I didn't say anything back to her, a couple of times I was trying to be polite.in the third quarter of the Super Bowl, she went upstairs to our room. Now remember we live with her parents. Her sister and our brother in law were there to watch the Superbowl with us. She text me telling me that she doesn't love me anymore and I should move out.I didn't respond but I did go upstairs and grab my shoes and took a drive. Her parents have been texting me and they seem legitimate Lee worried about me. When I haven't answered her she said that running away won't change anything. And that I should have talked before I left. Then a few minutes ago she asked if I was even coming back at all tonight. I really don't have any place to go and can't afford a hotel room.so I have to go back or sleep in the cold in my car
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

I went back home. Her parents were pretty supportive of me. Today she told me I could stay until she files the papers. Then later today, via text, she said she wants me to leave. 
It hurt - but I am retraining my brain. As a Christian, my source of joy and peace is my God. This sucks but it will not be the end of me. It is not the end of the world. I am able to handle this. I will be ok. I want better for my kids, but it is not in my control. I will love them unconditionally. Yes, I hope for a reconciliation, but if it doesn't happen, I will endure by His grace. I surely need it right now.


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## sandc

Mark, let me apologize first, I skimmed your thread. I'm not going to be able to catch up on 16 pages before I pray tonight. 

It sounds like you were not the sacrificial leader of your home. Patriarchy doesn't work. Being a door mat and putting your wife above you doesn't work either. What does work is to have a vision for your life and a plan to achieve that vision. A mature, Christian woman will respect this and if she agrees with your vision will accompany you in life. Porn and trying to get your wife to be a porn star is not a Biblical goal for your life. You already know this. 

You cannot have either your wife or porn set up in your life as idols. Smash them and throw them out. Make Christ the center of your life. Pray and ask Him to show you His will. Pray that His will be done, not yours. If you are praying that your wife will take you back and that you two can start working on things, then you are praying for the wrong things. Pray only that God's will be done in your life. Pray for the courage to live out His will.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart to for a reason. He may have hardened your wife's heart toward you for a reason. Don't fight it. Try to rest easy and know that no matter what you do, God's plan for your life will be accomplished. Ask Him to help you work towards that whatever it is.

I will pray for God to reveal His will to you and to equip you for whatever He has planned.


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I went back home. Her parents were pretty supportive of me. Today she told me I could stay until she files the papers. Then later today, via text, she said she wants me to leave.
> It hurt - but I am retraining my brain. As a Christian, my source of joy and peace is my God. This sucks but it will not be the end of me. It is not the end of the world. I am able to handle this. I will be ok. I want better for my kids, but it is not in my control. I will love them unconditionally. Yes, I hope for a reconciliation, but if it doesn't happen, I will endure by His grace. I surely need it right now.


She does like to tell you what to do.


----------



## Mark72

sandc said:


> Mark, let me apologize first, I skimmed your thread. I'm not going to be able to catch up on 16 pages before I pray tonight.
> 
> It sounds like you were not the sacrificial leader of your home. Patriarchy doesn't work. Being a door mat and putting your wife above you doesn't work either. What does work is to have a vision for your life and a plan to achieve that vision. A mature, Christian woman will respect this and if she agrees with your vision will accompany you in life. Porn and trying to get your wife to be a porn star is not a Biblical goal for your life. You already know this.
> 
> You cannot have either your wife or porn set up in your life as idols. Smash them and throw them out. Make Christ the center of your life. Pray and ask Him to show you His will. Pray that His will be done, not yours. If you are praying that your wife will take you back and that you two can start working on things, then you are praying for the wrong things. Pray only that God's will be done in your life. Pray for the courage to live out His will.
> 
> God hardened Pharaoh's heart to for a reason. He may have hardened your wife's heart toward you for a reason. Don't fight it. Try to rest easy and know that no matter what you do, God's plan for your life will be accomplished. Ask Him to help you work towards that whatever it is.
> 
> I will pray for God to reveal His will to you and to equip you for whatever He has planned.


This is a tough pill to swallow but I know it's true.
I will not succeed in fixing her.


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## Mark72

Conrad said:


> She does like to tell you what to do.


Indeed. Then she resents me for it... :scratchhead:


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## sandc

So stop. What you're doing now isn't working. Pray for her, truly pray for her. Not to come back to you but that God would bless her. Then ask Him to show you His will. Work to please Him and see where He takes you. He's got it all planned out. You just need to show up.


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## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Indeed. Then she resents me for it... :scratchhead:


Of course she does.

It makes you appear weak.


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## Mark72

Sigh...

Tuesday she came home because of strep. I took care of her and the kids. She was actually quite sweet that night. It continued into yesterday. I felt a change came about. She got a call from her sister, then it went back... she told me later last night that she still hasn't changed her mind. I took advice from Conrad and said I don't like where this conversation is headed and started to get some clothes to take a shower. She asked if I wanted her to lie and give me false hope, I said It is what it is - she said again that she hasn't changed her mind about her decision - "I said Neither have I, so I guess we are at odds" and walked out of the room.


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## sandc

Stop taking care of her. Show her what her new life will be like when it's Mark-less. When she's sick she needs to take care of herself and the kids because that's the way it will be.

I think you need to give her a dose of life without Mark.


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## LanieB

Mark, I agree with SandC. Your wife is a big girl. She should be able to take care of herself when she's sick. I've never had anyone take care of me, and I do just fine. She's the one who wants to live without you, *so let her.* If there's any chance she will change her mind about things, it will be when she realizes exactly what life without you is going to be like. Right now, she knows she can come and go as she pleases, and you will always be there with open arms. And as nice as you were to take care of her while she was sick, it still didn't change her mind, did it? 

It does take some time, but you CAN detach emotionally from her. I've done it myself, and it feels SO MUCH better. I've been about as low as a person can get over the last year-and-a-half, but I'm starting to see the light. As bad as I know you hate to do it, you need to start picturing your future without her. While it may feel horrible, eventually it won't be horrible. As others have said, what you've been doing isn't working. So do the opposite. I know it's harder for fathers, since mothers usually end up having the kids more, but you can still be a great father to your kids if you do end up divorced. They will still love you and still need you.


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## sandc

Time to stop hoping she'll change man. Let her go.


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## Mark72

I'm trying to let go. I think honestly it's the kids that make it tough. I wouldn't have as much of a problem leaving if I knew I could take them with me.
When we split up last time she used them as leverage.


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## sandc

That was last time. You know what to expect this time. Don't fall for it.


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## Mark72

Also, it's just tough thinking about divorce period. I have seen so much of it in my life. I hate it. I hate the thought of any couples going through it.
My parents have 7 divorces between them. Countless between my aunts, uncles, and grandparents...
Just the idea hits close to home with me. I feel like I am a failure.


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## Mark72

For the love of God...
She just sent me a text wanting to up my "move out" date to next weekend.


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## sandc

This line of thinking is a failure. I have a feeling that if you show her you don't need her, she will want you. Do the 180, proceed with a D. She wants one, don't fight her on it. Show her that you'll be just fine with out her because... you will.


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## sandc

Mark72 said:


> For the love of God...
> She just sent me a text wanting to up my "move out" date to next weekend.


She wants the D, tell her to move out.


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## Mark72

sandc said:


> She wants the D, tell her to move out.


Hmmmm- We're living in her parents' house. I don't think that will fly.


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## Mark72

In addition to the book, the counseling, and TAM venting, I am about to start taking anti-anxiety meds. Remeron, and Valium (2mg) until the Remeron kicks in.

Starting to feel low again...


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## sandc

Mark72 said:


> Hmmmm- We're living in her parents' house. I don't think that will fly.


Sorry. I missed that part. Are you financially capable of finding your own place?


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## Mark72

sandc said:


> Sorry. I missed that part. Are you financially capable of finding your own place?


Yes.
Until child support. Not really sure how that is gonna pan out.


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## sandc

Well, in California they run all the monies everyone makes and costs of living through a software program they call the dissomaster. It spits out alimony and child support and who pays who how much. Not sure about your state but I suspect something similar.

If you can get out and live on your own, that would be a good thing. It will be easier to detach. Have you read through the 180?


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## lifeistooshort

I think the lesson here is that you can't use religion or her mother to guilt her or pressure her into wanting to stay married to you. And you especially can't guilt or pressure her into wanting to have an intimate relationship. Porn means different things to different people, and in my view if you were on with live women you were having an affair. When women talk to a real guy on the computer everyone says she's having an affair, so why wouldn't this be? I'm curious what you guys did to address the webcams? It sounds like it was rugswept, which never works.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

sandc said:


> Well, in California they run all the monies everyone makes and costs of living through a software program they call the dissomaster. It spits out alimony and child support and who pays who how much. Not sure about your state but I suspect something similar.
> 
> If you can get out and live on your own, that would be a good thing. It will be easier to detach. Have you read through the 180?


Yes. Been dong a lot of reading. Trying to process. I'll recap a bit...
I was raised by mostly women. My mother married 3 men after she divorced my dad, but they didn't last long. My mom was pretty overbearing with affection and guilt trips. That's where my problem is.
I have never been shown how to act like a man, so I'm learning now. Slowly. 

It's a shame that it looks like I will learn it for another woman... but I am looking at the woman I am married to now. She is not the woman I married. I love the woman I married and am still deeply in love with her. I don't know this woman. 

Guess I need to consider the one I love dead or just gone forever.


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## U.E. McGill

Sandc can be your good Christian brother. Me, in going to be your hard ass friend. Here comes the 2x4. 

First. READ NO MORE MR NICE GUY. Then read "when I say no, I feel guilty"

I read a couple pages. Then the last pages. Here's what I get. You have a lot of toxic shame. You are hooking up your emotional hose to your wife. Then she treats you like ****! Then you try to be nice, or convince her she's wrong (saying lets go to MC or it's godly we stay together) is just trying to change her! Your an *******. 

You can't fix a woman. You need to fix yourself the most. She's damaged goods. There's never just one dis functional person in a relationship. Your all over the place, your 180ing her, your taking care of her, your being assertive your caving to her. WTF MAN!

2x4 off. So get a couple of buddies. Go away for two days or something. Go talk to some straight up honest homies who will tell you when you f'd up or when you were right. Start faking you have a back bone and put yourself first in every decision you make. Because if you can't put yourself first how can you make the right decisions about others?

Quit letting your wife text you! Of she wants to talk about divorce let her come face to face. 

Now it's tough, cause your at you FIL, but you move out when you want to. Id get it in writing that your inlaws wanted you out so that way there's no abandonment issues. 

So yeah, you got yourself in this by being mr nice guy. You were wimpy, manipulative and lied. So what. Forgive yourself and get better. You may just find once your an integrated man you don't want a woman like your wife any away. Do it for your kids so they can see what a man you are.


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## Mark72

lifeistooshort said:


> I think the lesson here is that you can't use religion or her mother to guilt her or pressure her into wanting to stay married to you. And you especially can't guilt or pressure her into wanting to have an intimate relationship. Porn means different things to different people, and in my view if you were on with live women you were having an affair. When women talk to a real guy on the computer everyone says she's having an affair, so why wouldn't this be? I'm curious what you guys did to address the webcams? It sounds like it was rugswept, which never works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, we addressed it. She found a login name and asked me about it. I lied at first then came back and 2-tier told her everything... part of it then the rest... all on the same phone call.

She still brings that up. Yeah, I am a porn addict. I know it. She knows it. My response to the situation was my responsibility and I owned up to it. She "forgave" me for it. We discussed it in marriage counseling the 5 times she went. We discussed it when we saw our pastors (then and now). It was discussed. It closed with an ultimatum - do it again and I'm leaving.
It wasn't the first time I'd looked at porn in the marriage - this was just the first time she caught me. I had done it a few times before and told her about it. She wasn't happy.


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## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> Sandc can be your good Christian brother. Me, in going to be your hard ass friend. Here comes the 2x4.
> 
> First. READ NO MORE MR NICE GUY. Then read "when I say no, I feel guilty"
> 
> I read a couple pages. Then the last pages. Here's what I get. You have a lot of toxic shame. You are hooking up your emotional hose to your wife. Then she treats you like ****! Then you try to be nice, or convince her she's wrong (saying lets go to MC or it's godly we stay together) is just trying to change her! Your an *******.
> 
> You can't fix a woman. You need to fix yourself the most. She's damaged goods. There's never just one dis functional person in a relationship. Your all over the place, your 180ing her, your taking care of her, your being assertive your caving to her. WTF MAN!
> 
> 2x4 off. So get a couple of buddies. Go away for two days or something. Go talk to some straight up honest homies who will tell you when you f'd up or when you were right. Start faking you have a back bone and put yourself first in every decision you make. Because if you can't put yourself first how can you make the right decisions about others?
> 
> Quit letting your wife text you! Of she wants to talk about divorce let her come face to face.
> 
> Now it's tough, cause your at you FIL, but you move out when you want to. Id get it in writing that your inlaws wanted you out so that way there's no abandonment issues.
> 
> So yeah, you got yourself in this by being mr nice guy. You were wimpy, manipulative and lied. So what. Forgive yourself and get better. You may just find once your an integrated man you don't want a woman like your wife any away. Do it for your kids so they can see what a man you are.


I'm learning this. I have NMMNG on PDF. It's on the list to re-read.
I put away His Needs/Her Needs - we're beyond that. I'll read that some other time. Right now I'm reading "Telling yourself the truth".
It's helping some. I'm just not the most read person out there. I'm pretty bombarded with stuff and processing it.


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## U.E. McGill

Seriously. I do this with love. Your a classic nice guy. Take a day off and read it. Pm me and I'll set you up with some good guys to help.


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## sandc

U.E. McGill said:


> Seriously. I do this with love. Your a classic nice guy. Take a day off and read it. Pm me and I'll set you up with some good guys to help.


I am a good Christian brother who agrees with you... for the record. 

Being a doormat is not Biblical.


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## LanieB

Ah, Mark, I'm sorry about what you're going through. I know it's horrible. But you WILL get through this. I've had to get on some meds myself, even though I didn't want to & put it off for a long time. I hope yours help you. 

Yes, I can see that you're a "nice guy", and that isn't working for you now. I guess you could classify me as a "nice girl", and it isn't working for me either. We just have to figure out how to NOT be doormats. As bad as you don't want to go through with a divorce, it seems as though you're going to have to do it. I think it will be a lot easier once you're not living with her. It will be hard at first, but as time passes, as long as you continue to work on yourself and don't let depression and anxiety take over your life, you will come through this, and you will be happy again. It may not happen right away, but it will happen.

And you know what? There are actually women out there who LIKE nice guys.


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## Mark72

Last night didn't go well. 
For now I'll leave it at that.
I decided to try the first anti anxiety pill. It's just a low dose valium. So far, I don't care for it. I don't feel anxiety. I feel numb and tired. Like I'm too lazy to have any emotion at all. But compared to the knot in my stomach that I had all night I guess this may be the lesser of two evils. I just don't want to get hooked on this crap.


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## LanieB

I've never taken valium. Did you take it right before bedtime? If so, you might try taking it earlier in the evening so the groggy part might wear off by morning. My new med makes me really sleepy, and that's what I had to start doing too. 

Sorry you had a bad night.


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## Mark72

It wore off and the anxiety came back - my stomach is in knots.
I wish I could just flip the switch and make it go away...


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## sandc

There is no easy way through this. Try to understand that there is life outside this woman's sphere of influence. God didn't create you to worship her.


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## LanieB

Mark, are you taking any other kind of meds for depression or anything? It sounds like you need something that you take daily that lasts 24 hours, so it's always in your system.


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## Mark72

LanieB said:


> Mark, are you taking any other kind of meds for depression or anything? It sounds like you need something that you take daily that lasts 24 hours, so it's always in your system.


I dont like the idea of it really...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

I don't like the idea of going on a diet either. But I know I need to. And am. Sometimes it's best.


----------



## LanieB

Mark72 said:


> I dont like the idea of it really...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





sandc said:


> I don't like the idea of going on a diet either. But I know I need to. And am. Sometimes it's best.


I didn't like the idea of pills either (still don't), so I put it off for a long, long time. Then I realized I was at rock-bottom and after months and months of this, it wasn't getting better. I cried all the time and could barely function or make decisions. I knew if I was going to get through this marriage crisis, I was going to have to do something drastic about my depression. So I started researching antidepressants, picked one to try (one that seemed to have little-to-no side effects for most people), and then I went to my doctor.

I hope that if/when I get through this bad time that I won't have to stay on these pills forever. I mainly just wanted you to know that many people have to get some help for depression/anxiety. There's no shame in it. I hope you can get through your situation without it though. I know you'd rather do it that way.


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## sandc

I guess I'm different. If there is a pill that will help me avoid physical or emotional pain... I'm taking that pill!


Back at a time when I was going through some moderate to severe emotional pain (this was pre-Caramel) I found that the only way to get over it was to embrace it. I tried redirecting my thoughts for so long and the mind movies and pain would come back. Finally I just starting thinking about all the painful stuff that was hurting me. I'd think of nothing else for as long as I could. Each time my mind tried to wander away I'd just think of it again and try to embrace the pain. Soon I was completely numb to it. And I started to heal.


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## U.E. McGill

Want a pill free 100% natural anti-depressant? Exercise!!!! Plenty of clinical research to support this. 

Seriously go join a CrossFit gym. You'll get in great workout. You'll get the "runners high". Plus everyone at a box (what a crossfit gym is) will scream and cheer for you. What's better for your self esteem?

If your doc has cleared you for exercise go for it! I've had bouts of depression myself. Nothing has done better than hard exercise. 

Not to mention 6 months of crossfit will improve your sex rank.


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## Mark72

Oh boy... 
Well, Saturday was a day like any other. Went to bed... 2am the baby wakes up and it's her turn to feed him. I fell back asleep right away when she got up and he stopped crying.
I woke up a few minutes later with my hand around her waist. And she wasn't pushing me off. (Yeah this is the part where I went back into needy Mark mode) I started rubbing her back. She was very responsive. Long story short, she wanted sex. She said she was feeling something but it wasn't love. I told her that if that's the case I don't want it. She was VERY persistant but I stood firm... pun intended. No sex, just anger.
Next day, back to short, snippy responses and lots of requests. Some I did, some I didn't.
Last night... I was really really really in the mood. So was she. (Yes again, I know I am looking like a little girl to her during this...) I told her I don't want just sex. I want my wife back. Blah blah blah. I tried to say it in a firm, commanding voice but yeah we all know that it's not always what you say OR how you say it... Looking desperate isn't sexy.
The whole time she's kissing my neck (not my lips - she refused that) and well... we had sex. Pretty good sex too... she was really into it.
Then this morning, she sent me the text that I knew she was going to send. "I'm sorry, I don't want you to get any false hope, we shouldn't have done that..." on and on. Plus, I am confused about what true love really is because I only concentrate on the physical... 

Yeah, I'll accept all criticisms in 3.... 2.... 1.....


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## U.E. McGill

I'm in the personal opinion that anytime your woman initiates sex you should have sex. Period. Lots of body agenda things going on, plus it gives you a chance to up some body chemistry in your favor. 

Now don't go getting outcome based on it. Don't read into it. Don't make it "making love" or "reconnecting". Most of all don't try to put meaning to it for her. 

See her words are saying one thing but she's doing another. So enjoy it. But you need to make sure you can not get wrapped up in it. Give her the attitude of "hey it was there so I didn't turn it down"


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## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> I'm in the personal opinion that anytime your woman initiates sex you should have sex. Period. Lots of body agenda things going on, plus it gives you a chance to up some body chemistry in your favor.
> 
> Now don't go getting outcome based on it. Don't read into it. Don't make it "making love" or "reconnecting". Most of all don't try to put meaning to it for her.
> 
> See her words are saying one thing but she's doing another. So enjoy it. But you need to make sure you can not get wrapped up in it. Give her the attitude of "hey it was there so I didn't turn it down"


Unfortunately the first ship has already sailed.


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## doubletrouble

I agree with McGill about exercise, but I also agree with Lanie and SandC about pills. I've done both and both work. However, to get your butt up TO the gym or bike or whatever you choose, you may need to get that fog of depression somewhat lifted. There are pills for that. 

I've had anti-depressants in the past, and no, they are no "sure" or long-term fix, because guess what? Once you're off them, if you haven't addressed the mess in your mind, it'll still be there. But if they give you the oomph to get your butt up and moving, that's a good answer. 

And once you're on the way with exercise (I mean daily, good, heart- and lung-pumping exercise, not just walking around the block), you're on the road to permanently feeling better. 

It's a win-win if you manage it properly. And hey, I just told you how!


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Oh boy...
> Well, Saturday was a day like any other. Went to bed... 2am the baby wakes up and it's her turn to feed him. I fell back asleep right away when she got up and he stopped crying.
> I woke up a few minutes later with my hand around her waist. And she wasn't pushing me off. (Yeah this is the part where I went back into needy Mark mode) I started rubbing her back. She was very responsive. Long story short, she wanted sex. She said she was feeling something but it wasn't love. I told her that if that's the case I don't want it. She was VERY persistant but I stood firm... pun intended. No sex, just anger.
> Next day, back to short, snippy responses and lots of requests. Some I did, some I didn't.
> Last night... I was really really really in the mood. So was she. (Yes again, I know I am looking like a little girl to her during this...) I told her I don't want just sex. I want my wife back. Blah blah blah. I tried to say it in a firm, commanding voice but yeah we all know that it's not always what you say OR how you say it... Looking desperate isn't sexy.
> The whole time she's kissing my neck (not my lips - she refused that) and well... we had sex. Pretty good sex too... she was really into it.
> Then this morning, she sent me the text that I knew she was going to send. "I'm sorry, I don't want you to get any false hope, we shouldn't have done that..." on and on. Plus, I am confused about what true love really is because I only concentrate on the physical...
> 
> Yeah, I'll accept all criticisms in 3.... 2.... 1.....


Way too much talking

Talk less, bang more.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Way too much talking
> 
> Talk less, bang more.


Are you a cubs fan?
I digress what Conrad said.

Read Regroup's thread this is you in his early stages.

Talk less, bang more


----------



## Mark72

tom67 said:


> Are you a cubs fan?
> I digress what Conrad said.
> 
> Read Regroup's thread this is you in his early stages.
> 
> Talk less, bang more


I doubt this will be happening again soon. But... who knows


----------



## tom67

Mark72 said:


> I doubt this will be happening again soon. But... who knows


Play it cool and keep mouth shut.
And let nature take its course.

You need to have a woman or two hit on you while you and wifey are out.
She will be all over you that same night.
In a nut shell you have to start upping your sex rank.


----------



## MSP

U.E. McGill said:


> Want a pill free 100% natural anti-depressant? Exercise!!!! Plenty of clinical research to support this.


:iagree:

Other stuff that is proven to have effective anti-depressant qualities, without any side-effects include:


 Positive social interactions. I.e., time with friends. But they have to be reasonably happy friends and not people who suck the life outta you.
 Time in nature.
Do it, man! 

As for her text and the sex, start being in control. You're letting her dictate exactly what happens and how it happens. Not sexy for either of you. Your reply to her text should establish that you were strong rather than weak. I.e., you didn't _give in to her_; you did what _you wanted_ to do. Something along the lines of, "I enjoyed taking you**". And that's it. Leave it there. No explanations. You did what you wanted with her and you know she enjoyed your attentions. Confidence, man.



** Substitute whatever sex phrase you use there.


----------



## Mark72

I hate the catch 22 I'm in.
Geez I am so friggin insecure about myself - I am insecure about even breaking out of that shell - taking the first steps. Funny thing is that last night during sex, I put some bass in my voice and told her to do things - that she had refused to do for years - and she did them. She didn't do them for very long, but she did them. 
But when it comes to everyday things... I have always listened to everyone tell me what to do. My 7 year old daughter is even picking up on it. She is acting just like my wife, and my 5 year old son is acting just like me. 
At the moment of truth, I start second guessing what I am about to say because sometimes I look like an idiot when I try to assert myself. I try to be aggressive rather than assertive. No one respects a toy poodle that barks like he is a doberman. 
I have been successful a couple times but for the most part I have no confidence.
I need to build my confidence, but it's so low that I wimp out at the moment of truth


----------



## sandc

I do agree with one thing... stop talking. It seems like it gets worse every time you talk to her. Actions man, actions. You can't say you want to be with her and then refuse her sex. It's confusing. Show her you want her but also show her you don't NEED her. Get out and do stuff with other people.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I hate the catch 22 I'm in.
> Geez I am so friggin insecure about myself - I am insecure about even breaking out of that shell - taking the first steps. Funny thing is that last night during sex, I put some bass in my voice and told her to do things - that she had refused to do for years - and she did them. She didn't do them for very long, but she did them.
> But when it comes to everyday things... I have always listened to everyone tell me what to do. My 7 year old daughter is even picking up on it. She is acting just like my wife, and my 5 year old son is acting just like me.
> At the moment of truth, I start second guessing what I am about to say because sometimes I look like an idiot when I try to assert myself. I try to be aggressive rather than assertive. No one respects a toy poodle that barks like he is a doberman.
> I have been successful a couple times but for the most part I have no confidence.
> I need to build my confidence, but it's so low that I wimp out at the moment of truth


The key failure in all of this is when you look to her to reassure you and to seek her approval.

It's the common thread in every conversation.


----------



## MSP

Conrad said:


> The key failure in all of this is when you look to her to reassure you and to seek her approval.


:iagree:

Yes! Stop seeking her approval or agreement in stuff! Super important! She doesn't even like it!

And go lift heavy weights. It will change your confidence in ways that you can hardly imagine. Start today, even if you just do something at home by Googling "bodyweight exercises" (I like You Are Your Own Gym).


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> I hate the catch 22 I'm in.
> 
> Geez I am so friggin insecure about myself - I am insecure about even breaking out of that shell - taking the first steps. Funny thing is that last night during sex, I put some bass in my voice and told her to do things - that she had refused to do for years - and she did them. She didn't do them for very long, but she did them.
> 
> But when it comes to everyday things... I have always listened to everyone tell me what to do. My 7 year old daughter is even picking up on it. She is acting just like my wife, and my 5 year old son is acting just like me.
> 
> At the moment of truth, I start second guessing what I am about to say because sometimes I look like an idiot when I try to assert myself. I try to be aggressive rather than assertive. No one respects a toy poodle that barks like he is a doberman.
> 
> I have been successful a couple times but for the most part I have no confidence.
> 
> I need to build my confidence, but it's so low that I wimp out at the moment of truth



Fake it till you make it!!! It's better to make mistakes and screw up than just revert to old bad habits. 

Google: the parable of the man with no spine.


----------



## Mark72

I'm going to watch "Cool Runnings" and fast forward to the motivational speech that Yul Brenner gave to Junior Bevil.


----------



## Mark72

I didn't like the pills. I was a zombie yesterday. I flushed them last night. I can do this without the pills. I am leaning on God to help me. And you guys and gals that are cheering me on.
I appreciate it all.

I told her dad this morning that I am going to be making changes, and to expect a different behavior from me. It may be awkward but I need to do this. For me. If I do it for her, any changes will not be genuine, and they will be temporary. I need to do them for me. Right now my mindset is that I am not allowing a separation. She doesn't have my permission. I actually feel somewhat confident this morning. We haven't talked but I sent her a text on plans I have for the kids this summer - they were statements, not permissive questions. And they were phrased to assume that we will be a family and not living in her parents' house.
No reply yet, but if there is a "but we won't be together" text, I will tell her that she needs to talk to me about that face to face, not by text.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Seriously dude?!? Wtf, texts? How passive aggressive is that. I'll give you a C for getting it done, but the delivery sucked. Quit texting important sh!t to your wife. Man up and tell her things. 

Quit futzing around. These other guys have said it, and I'll say it again. Take action. Don't tell people, just do it. You can't "ignore" her about wanting to separate. It's manipulative and dismissive. It's also controlling.


----------



## Mark72

Texts are because we are at work and cant be on the phone.
I am using this board not only as help but as a journal. I am posting little snippits of how I feel about things too... 
As far as telling her dad, we live in his house - Only fair to let him know that I am going to be acting differently, probably strangely. 
Just my thoughts


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Texts are because we are at work and cant be on the phone.
> I am using this board not only as help but as a journal. I am posting little snippits of how I feel about things too...
> As far as telling her dad, we live in his house - Only fair to let him know that I am going to be acting differently, probably strangely.
> Just my thoughts


Talk less - do more

Quit seeking approval.

If you must seek it, get it from us.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> Texts are because we are at work and cant be on the phone.
> 
> I am using this board not only as help but as a journal. I am posting little snippits of how I feel about things too...
> 
> As far as telling her dad, we live in his house - Only fair to let him know that I am going to be acting differently, probably strangely.
> 
> Just my thoughts



I hear you. But let me put it to you a different way. Only you (and your maker) can be the judge of you. Period. Not FIL, not wife, not me. So if He has a problem with anything your doing, he'll come to you. Otherwise leave his feelings alone. 

Telling him ahead of time is seeking tacit approval. All of this reeks of covert contracts, ie "if I just act a certain way, she see I'm a great husband and start acting like a wife again!" Covert contracts fail because they are deceitful. 

It doesn't work that way. Put yourself first. Answer every question with "what's best for me?" Quit trying to please everyone. This isn't stuff I made up. This comes from thousands of guys before me. Stand on the shoulders of giants and don't to it alone.


----------



## Mark72

I need more work than I thought...
On a side note, I called her and told her that I am going to get a family zoo membership. She said that I am making a lot of plans.
I said I know, neither have mine. Then proceeded to talk about the zoo membership.
She said that trying to strong arm my way back in isn't going to work. I told her that things are changing. She said she has heard it all before and informed me that she made an appointment to see an attorney. I told her that changes nothing - I am not going to take any steps to ease a separation or divorce. I will not give her an easy divorce or walk away from my family.
She said that she already told the attorney that I wouldnt make it easy and if I want to make it hard she is fine with that then hung up.
So.....
The bad news is that I am getting some anxiety.
The good news is that it isn't nearly as bad as it was when we spklit before. I am upset but not freaking out and sobbing like a little girl.

Edit: also - this time around no begging....


----------



## Mark72

Right now, all I want is tough love - unless I actually do something right...

I am finding out a lot about myself. I have ALWAYS sought approval from others before doing anything. I hate that. I'm a boat load more insecure than I realized. I haven't made a big decision on my own about anything. I thought I was just being a gentleman when I asked her dad's permission to marry her. I'd imagine if that was the real case I wouldn't have had sex with her before we got married...

Yeah I vent a lot and I will vent some more on here. At least on here no one will hear me if I whine


----------



## Mark72

I hit a nerve.
I changed my email, facebook, etc passwords. I am at work.
Within 30 minutes, I got a text stating "Nothing screams 'I have something to hide' than changing all your passwords"


----------



## sandc

Don't answer her.


----------



## Mark72

I'm thinking she will keep trying to get at me by telling me that I am devious or something. Just a prediction


----------



## sandc

Let her say whatever she wants. She wants a D? Fine. She doesn't need to use your email or your facebook or your etc...


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## Mark72

It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that last time we separated she got on my facebook and started deleting pictures


----------



## sandc

That's great. You tell us that. Don't talk to her. No explanations no nothing.


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## Mark72

I'm imagining what the fan is going to smell like when I get home.


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## sandc

It's up to you. We can only advise you so much. You have to do it. Good luck.


----------



## CAMERON47

Mark, I started reading your story a few days ago since I, too, am losing my beautiful and amazing wife. My wife moved out last year in May, and after lots of counseling and me having a total emotional meltdown she filed for divorce in November. I have had some similar experiences as you have. 

I want to start with saying that a lot of the other people here have given you some really solid advice, and I have benefitted from reading it myself. 

I, too, have an addiction to my wife. I love her very much and miss her love and attention as well. I looked into why I was having some of the feelings I've been experiencing and have realized some important stuff.

I am insecure in myself and have codependency issues. I realize that I seek reassurance not only from my wife, but from pretty much everyone in my life. Why? Because I've lost confidence in who I am. I look for reassurance from others, but then I say to myself things like they're just being nice or they don't really mean that. The reality is that I don't feel that way about myself, and I need to change that. 

So, I started being more social by taking dance classes, started a gym membership, started their fitness program, started volunteering at the animal shelter to walk the dogs, and I continue to take martial arts classes. These activities help reflect who I really am through the social interactions I have. I go in with a positive attitude - confident, open, humorous, affectionate, and determined to succeed in becoming a better me. The result every time is I leave feeling great about the experience and who I am. 

I also want to add that I take every opportunity to be affectionate or engage in physical contact with people as this is lacking in my life now, and I need it so much even if it's just shaking hands. I also spend a lot more time complementing women, flirting with them, and showing them affection as this helps build up my self-esteem. I'm not looking for sex or to get involved with anyone, and knowing this makes it so much easier to interact with women. 

I knew this was an important change I needed, to become a self-confident independent man, as it was the person I was in the years before I met my wife. That was the man she married, and things changed in large part because of the relationship, and now I have an opportunity to become that man again. 

Part of what I learned was that my insecurity, my need to have her attention and reassurance got to the point that it was driving her away from me. This neediness is a major turnoff. Just think of someone you meet who suddenly looks up to you and is constantly bugging you for attention, reassurance, support, food, money, etc. It's a major turnoff. I need to be the powerful independent man she married. I realize now that she is no longer the woman I married, either. That's painful for me to accept as well. I still love her for who she is even though she has changed. If we are to reconnect it will mean starting a whole new relationship to make it happen. This is only possible if we both can change to being two independent and self-confident people who are mutually interested in each other. That can't happen if we keep trying to reconnect at the present time. 

Everyone has said to me you need to give it time and space, and I get it now. In time we will be able to heal and forgive each other for the past. That is only possible if we give each other space, which has required us to set up boundaries which is basically no more communication at all unless absolutely necessary. No more texting or calling or emailing or even talking if we run into each other somewhere. NONE, unless necessary. 

It's been really hard for me to stomach this, but I find outlets to cope with it. The best one that I find that has helped me is writing. I lay in bed and write it all out, or just write whatever. I've been taking advantage of this and practicing my cursive since I've always wanted to be good at cursive, and I'll even just write random words working my way through the alphabet. Whenever the anxiety or depression or loneliness hits me hard, I lay down and write. I usually start to feel better after a few, but if that doesn't work I'll read for a while. Usually self-help books, but reading has the same calming effect for me. I don't share any of what I write with her as it can make things worse, and I burn every page that I finish. A lot of it is just emotional garbage, paranoia, and delusions that in reflection don't need to linger in my life any longer. 

I hope this wasn't too preachy. I wanted to show my support and thanks by sharing my story and reinforcing the advice that others have already given you. I know how hard it can be. There's hardly been a day where there wasn't a moment that I wished I was dead. But, I accept these feelings knowing that it's only temporary and that I need to stay focused on being a better me as hard as that is to achieve right now. Every step in the right direction is empowering.

Whoever you are, who you become, or what you make of yourself will attract certain people into your life.

You are powerful, you are loved, and you are wanted.

The process is the purpose, the goal is irrelevant. 
It's about the journey, not the destination.

Thanks for continuing to share.


----------



## Mark72

Thanks for sharing Cameron.

Wow... just.. wow...
She does not like not being in control.


----------



## Mark72

Well... here's the update.
I went home last night but since she was held up at work (nurse at a hospital) I had to get the kids. I enjoy doing that, except that it's her sister that watches them. Sister is very much in favor of our separation. 
Well last night the baby woke up and she woke me up to take care of him. I was really tired. So I put a pacifier in his mouth, and that didn't work. So I told her that I think he wants her to feed him, and fell back to sleep. SHe woke me up again and said that "Tonight is your deadline, don't forget" - meaning that she had asked me to move out before the 15th.
Normally we take turns getting up with the baby. Sometimes she gets up twice, but usually I do. Last night I was just way too tired, and she had fallen asleep early. 
Well this morning, she got up and got the kids up right when I was waking up. By the time I got dressed and went downstairs the kids were already dressed and she was making her way out the door. She repeated that today is my deadline, so that her parents could hear it. I didn't say anything... Her mom told me that maybe she's just mad and this will blow over. I said that if they ask me to leave, I will go without any drama, but if they don't then I will stay and left it at that.
She started texting me again telling me that I am selfish for not just offering to help with the kids and not being attentive. She finished with I have just made her decision even easier. I said I'm sorry you feel that way.
She asked if that's all I have to say, I replied that we are not going to have this discussion by text.
So she called me. I borrowed a few things from Conrad

Her: 2 minutes on how selfish I am for not helping, I shouldnt ask if I can help I should just do it.
Me: I'm sorry you feel I have not been attentive to her and the kids over the years. 
Her: that's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth.
Me: So you just mean this morning and yesterday.
Her: Well you just made it easy. Why did you change the passwords on your email and facebook? You have something to hide? That is shady.
Me: Not hiding. Protecting. Based on the fact that you sabotaged my facebook last time we separated, and you have been displaying some destructive behavior lately.
Her: How?
Me: The way you have been acting has been very abusive. This is a consequence of your behavior.
Her: Well, divorce is a consequence of your behavior.
Me: ...silence...
Her: I talked to an attorney. It will cost $5000 to retain him. If I file, you will have to pay that too.
Me: I am not paying for a divorce that I don't want.
Her: Well, you'll have to pay to fight it. And by the way, why would you text your friend and tell him that you are bettering yourself for another woman?
Me: So when you went through my texts you didn't read the whole thing I guess?
Her: No I read the whole thing
Me: Then you know what was said.
silence
Her: Then why did you message MY friends telling them we are having problems?
Me: You didn't read the whole message?
Her: Yes I did
Me: Then you know that I messaged your best friend to make sure that she doesn't travel 2000 miles for your surprise birthday party that I cancelled.
Her: I've known about that for a month.
Me: Then why take a question out of context when you know the truth?
Her: You need to be out tonight
Me: The weather is going to be pretty bad, we'll see how that plays out. And I have no intentions on leaving unless your parents ask me to leave, since it's their house
Her: My dad told me that if I want you to leave that you have to leave, so if you don't want to leave, I'll call the police to have you escorted out... *click*

A few minutes later I get an email from her father letting me know that he doesnt want to be in the middle of this but if she asks me to leave then there is no option to stay, and that this new found assertiveness may be fine for me but it's making me look selfish.

I also get a chain of texts from her mom telling me that she isnt taking sides but she wants me to wait and not pack and see if she changes her mind.

So... I'm moving out tonight I guess


----------



## U.E. McGill

First off, let me say, your doing well. Hats off for doing it without texting. 

Second, tell your MIL and FIL "thanks for your support but this is between me and my wife". Tell them to go pound salt otherwise. They need to stay out of it. 

You're in a hard spot because it's your FIL's place. Like I said ask him to give you written and notarized notice so that you don't get hit with abandonment. 

As far as the comment about "being selfish". THIS IS A GREAT SIGN!!! Seriously when I stopped being a nice guy, the first thing my wife said was "you're being an *******". What you need to realize is the people around you are so used to you being mushy and a doormat that when you push back they are at a loss for words. Remember only you can put yourself first. 

One more step. You spend entirely too much time explaining to your wife. That's a Nice Guy thing. Understand she's trying to exert control over you, manipulation is part of that. YOU ARE THE ONLY JUDGE OF YOUR ACTIONS. she's calling out petty crap with you because she's agitated, not because she didn't understand. So avoid DEER. (Defend, explain, excuse, rationalize). 

When she says "why did you tell all our friends we were done". You say "Wow, I can see how you think that was bad." Then drop it. STFU. Hang up. Walk out. What ever. 

I'm afraid your marriage is in the crapper. I think frankly it's not worth saving. So you need to be a stand up guy, and well integrated, because you have kids in common. Lord knows there's plenty of nice guy stories of horrible divorce relationships. And don't put it past her to walk all over you after your divorced.


----------



## Conrad

Do they have a basement?

(That may already be where you are)


----------



## Conrad

Mr. McGill,

Good post.

I disagree with your prognosis on his marriage.

She wanted sex with him the other night.

That's usually the dividing line.

Can't stand him, wants him out, blah, blah, blah

But, still wants to have sex with him.

It's something to build on.

There's still physical attraction coming from her.

If that was gone, we'd be in 100% agreement.


----------



## lifeistooshort

U.E. McGill said:


> First off, let me say, your doing well. Hats off for doing it without texting.
> 
> Second, tell your MIL and FIL "thanks for your support but this is between me and my wife". Tell them to go pound salt otherwise. They need to stay out of it.
> 
> You're in a hard spot because it's your FIL's place. Like I said ask him to give you written and notarized notice so that you don't get hit with abandonment.
> 
> As far as the comment about "being selfish". THIS IS A GREAT SIGN!!! Seriously when I stopped being a nice guy, the first thing my wife said was "you're being an *******". What you need to realize is the people around you are so used to you being mushy and a doormat that when you push back they are at a loss for words. Remember only you can put yourself first.
> 
> One more step. You spend entirely too much time explaining to your wife. That's a Nice Guy thing. Understand she's trying to exert control over you, manipulation is part of that. YOU ARE THE ONLY JUDGE OF YOUR ACTIONS. she's calling out petty crap with you because she's agitated, not because she didn't understand. So avoid DEER. (Defend, explain, excuse, rationalize).
> 
> When she says "why did you tell all our friends we were done". You say "Wow, I can see how you think that was bad." Then drop it. STFU. Hang up. Walk out. What ever.
> 
> I'm afraid your marriage is in the crapper. I think frankly it's not worth saving. So you need to be a stand up guy, and well integrated, because you have kids in common. Lord knows there's plenty of nice guy stories of horrible divorce relationships. And don't put it past her to walk all over you after your divorced.


Umm, he can tell his inlaws to pound salt when he's not living in their house. That's a privilege you get when you're self sufficient. Just sayin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

Conrad - Yes they have a basement.
FIL has had his fill of this and he is not speaking with either w or me about it. Yes,he is upset at his own daughter.
I got an email from FIL that he and MIL will not be in the middle of it. Whether I stay or leave has nothing to do with them, but if W asks me to go then there are no options. 
Now I also JUST received an email from MIL that said W asked her for advice and MIL told her to let it play out for a few days.


----------



## Mark72

Actually in the email, FIL specifically said I cannot stay in the basement...

We are getting a really really good tax refund this year, compared to what we usually get. Somehow we are paycheck to paycheck, even though we arent paying rent. I looked at the bank statements and nothing out of the otdinary - she always paid all the bills. 
So a $10k tax refund would definitely be enough to fund the divorce attorney retainer. I'm about 60/40 on whether she is going to see this through or not...


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Conrad - Yes they have a basement.
> FIL has had his fill of this and he is not speaking with either w or me about it. Yes,he is upset at his own daughter.
> I got an email from FIL that he and MIL will not be in the middle of it. Whether I stay or leave has nothing to do with them, but if W asks me to go then there are no options.
> Now I also JUST received an email from MIL that said W asked her for advice and MIL told her to let it play out for a few days.


Say nothing.

Move downstairs.

Does she have control of the money?

Who usually gets the taxes done?


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Say nothing.
> 
> Move downstairs.
> 
> Does she have control of the money?
> 
> Who usually gets the taxes done?


My last post, I added that FIL told me I cannot stay in the basement.
She always comntrolled the money.
She already filed the taxes.


----------



## sandc

Great job Mark! Personally, I think you should move out for a few days. Let her have to do all the waking up with the baby. No taking turns. Let her have a taste of the single life. You might benefit from that too.


----------



## Mark72

sandc said:


> Great job Mark! Personally, I think you should move out for a few days. Let her have to do all the waking up with the baby. No taking turns. Let her have a taste of the single life. You might benefit from that too.


Her parents will pick up the slack. They did yesterday and today, then turned a bit snippy... I'll quote an email from her usually understanding father

This new found assertiveness and freedom you feel may be great for you. But it is doing nothing to help your marriage. You are now coming off as a selfish person. You do practically nothing around here, You don't contribute financially and now you don't even help with your own kids in the morning or at night. I don't know who is giving you advice but whoever it is hasn't helped at all. You have decisions to make and according to what I've heard (wife) say you need to make them quickly.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Her parents will pick up the slack. They did yesterday and today, then turned a bit snippy... I'll quote an email from her usually understanding father
> 
> This new found assertiveness and freedom you feel may be great for you. But it is doing nothing to help your marriage. You are now coming off as a selfish person. You do practically nothing around here, You don't contribute financially and now you don't even help with your own kids in the morning or at night. I don't know who is giving you advice but whoever it is hasn't helped at all. You have decisions to make and according to what I've heard (wife) say you need to make them quickly.


In other words, he's saying capitulate.

How's that worked for you in the past?


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> My last post, I added that FIL told me I cannot stay in the basement.
> She always comntrolled the money.
> She already filed the taxes.


Do you have access to the accounts?


----------



## sandc

They're on her side... SURPRISE! She's their kid what do you expect? They've always capitulated to her and they want you to do the same. Like I said, let her experience single life. Hell, let them all experience her single life. YOU don't want this. Remind them of that. SHE wants you out. You're just complying. You're being selfLESS by doing what she asks.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Do you have access to the accounts?


Oh yeah. I've looked at them and nothing seems amiss... just excess spending. Lots of it.
Especially on childcare... but that's gonna happen with 2 kids and a baby


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> In other words, he's saying capitulate.
> 
> How's that worked for you in the past?


It's all I've ever done.
Ever.
Until recently... and I'm only starting to do the opposite. Baby steps but I think I'm building a foundation.
The anxiety is getting better, although I felt it this morning, as I told you earlier. 
FIL is/was supposed to talk with our pastor today. I'm not sure what his purpose is, but our pastor probably isn't going to reveal anything that I have told him. MIL is paranoid that I have been twisting the story to make all of them look bad.
I'm sure he will at least assure them that I haven't done that. When I talk to my pastor (who also has a marriage building ministry and counsels spouses with marital problems) I am usually hardest on myself.


----------



## doubletrouble

It's difficult to go from doormat to having a spine, and for people to realize you're not actually being selfish and are merely standing up for yourself. Being a pleaser is sure OK for the people being pleased, but it hardly ever does anything for the one doing the pleasing. 

It is probably a balance you're going to have to get used to though. And they will see you as "different" but not quite sure how to peg it. So calling you selfish is one thing, but it's only because you're doing/not doing things that you did differently in the past. 

Keep arrogance and anger out of it; just measure the benefit to your life and your priorities.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Oh yeah. I've looked at them and nothing seems amiss... just excess spending. Lots of it.
> Especially on childcare... but that's gonna happen with 2 kids and a baby


Monitor it daily.

You're likely going to need to separate finances for a bit.

So, keep your eye out for that tax refund.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Monitor it daily.
> 
> You're likely going to need to separate finances for a bit.
> 
> So, keep your eye out for that tax refund.


I've asked for details several times, she asked if I think she is going to take the money and run...

But MIL is starting to email me again and be hopeful. She is a lot like the man I am trying to kill... Very much a people pleaser. But she is also very suspicious of everything


----------



## U.E. McGill

Conrad said:


> Mr. McGill,
> 
> 
> 
> Good post.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with your prognosis on his marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> She wanted sex with him the other night.
> 
> 
> 
> That's usually the dividing line.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't stand him, wants him out, blah, blah, blah
> 
> 
> 
> But, still wants to have sex with him.
> 
> 
> 
> It's something to build on.
> 
> 
> 
> There's still physical attraction coming from her.
> 
> 
> 
> If that was gone, we'd be in 100% agreement.



I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've known enough women in my life who use sex to manipulate outcomes. 

Generally her actions say "he's someone I can push around. If I dangle a carrot, he'll go back to being easy to push around"

I see sex as consistent with those actions. 

Mark- when she asks why you've changed your passwords tell her "none of your business. Your a woman who wants a divorce. You've lost those privileges." Then STFU.

As far as in-laws having a say in your marriage? I don't care who you are or what you have over me you get no say in your marriage. You give someone a place to stay, respect for the house stops at the marital relationship. Your FIL has no say. Hell, he's kicking you out!!! Tell him to go pound salt. I stand by that. 

It's about boundaries. Your in laws are going to have to understand your enforcing new ones.


----------



## Conrad

I see your point.

I would instruct Mark to take it next time she offers without a word - and without any regard for her pleasure.

Just take what he wants.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> I see your point.
> 
> I would instruct Mark to take it next time she offers without a word - and without any regard for her pleasure.
> 
> Just take what he wants.


Lets see if I still live there tonight first...


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Lets see if I still live there tonight first...


That's not the only way it happens.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> That's not the only way it happens.


Yeah. 
But...


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Yeah.
> But...


You're not liking this, are you?


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> You're not liking this, are you?


Not at all.
It sucks. 
I'm not having the anxiety and I'm not sobbing like a little girl... (I did all that last time) but it still sucks.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Not at all.
> It sucks.
> I'm not having the anxiety and I'm not sobbing like a little girl... (I did all that last time) but it still sucks.


Since it is their ball and their bat (her and her parents), it may become necessary for you to leave.

Contact your attorney and ask him what paperwork it would take to assure you that this will not be used to prove "abandonment" by you as a husband and father.

This will let her know you are serious.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Since it is their ball and their bat (her and her parents), it may become necessary for you to leave.
> 
> Contact your attorney and ask him what paperwork it would take to assure you that this will not be used to prove "abandonment" by you as a husband and father.
> 
> This will let her know you are serious.


I cant afford an attorney. 
I kept the email that her dad sent me that told me I cannot live there, or in the basement, if she tells me she wants me to leave


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I cant afford an attorney.
> I kept the email that her dad sent me that told me I cannot live there, or in the basement, if she tells me she wants me to leave


What are you going to do for money if you move out?


----------



## Mark72

I will be staying at my dad's second house for a while.
I don't know how that is going to play out or what i should send to her for the kids... 
I haven't played that part out. My dad would tell me to stay there and take care of the utilities. His wife... she is the reason we all didn't move in there to begin with and why we are in HER parents house now.
My dad and I worked it out. She changed the plans... Like father like son


----------



## Mark72

I make a decent amount of money but medical bills and insurance take up a lot. I pay the car payments. Childcare is outrageous. Now the bills are going to double.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Childcare sucks. What's your salary relative to hers? If they are similar she should be prepared to split then accordingly.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I will be staying at my dad's second house for a while.
> I don't know how that is going to play out or what i should send to her for the kids...
> I haven't played that part out. My dad would tell me to stay there and take care of the utilities. His wife... she is the reason we all didn't move in there to begin with and why we are in HER parents house now.
> My dad and I worked it out. She changed the plans... Like father like son


Send her nothing.


----------



## CAMERON47

Mark, I hope things are working out for you. 

When your FIL says you're being selfish, he's right. You need to be selfish to a certain extent, there is nothing wrong with being selfish, and it is an important step in healing yourself. Your top priority right now (besides your kids of course) should be taking care of yourself. I get this advice from everyone around me. You need to improve your mental and physical health from this traumatic experience. It all boils down to loving yourself and being in a good place mentally and physically, because if you're not there then you will continue to struggle with healthy relationships. 

I suggest that you read up on codependency and how to break the addiction. 

Learn to control your emotions by controlling what you choose to think about. If it causes emotional issues that are causing problems, then think about something else. There are emotional issues that you do need to deal with, most importantly your own issues with yourself.
I have mine - porn,and spousal abuse. It's what led to our relationship falling apart, the fact that I emotionally escaped from the relationship because of being afraid of facing who I was and what I had done instead of facing my fears and opening up my heart completely to my wife.
I wasn't happy with who I was because I resorted to pornography instead of facing my fears of being romantically involved with my wife to a degree that I was unfamiliar with. I was afraid of humiliation/embarrassment, but I didn't really have anything to worry about. If she truly loved me, it would work out. If I was confident with who I was then I wouldn't have to worry about feeling embarrassed or humiliated.
I had lashed out at my wife a couple of times for her mean and hurtful words that made me snap. I lost control and hit her a couple of times. The guilt and shame has been bringing me down because I've never been able to accept myself for being imperfect and admitting to others of my horrible behavior. She had forgiven me, but I still struggle with it to this day.
I had to figure these issues out in order to realize what I needed to overcome to feel better about myself. It's not easy, I still struggle with it, and admitting it is part of getting better.
I realize that it was my insecurity with myself that led to these problems, and I won't accept not facing my fears anymore. It's the only way I'll be able to get better. No more emotional escaping.
But, these are my personal issues, and what I've recognized that I need to deal with in order to move on and love myself once again.

Privacy. If she is putting up boundaries (filing for divorce and keeping you distant), then you need to have them too. So, her freaking out over you changing passwords is her own insecurity coming out, her own addictive behavior of emotional control over you. Recognize that having boundaries is important at this point in order to keep from going through emotional turmoil all of the time. Be honest, be gentle, and be emotionally detached in all of you communications. This must go on until you both are in a better place with yourselves and can be ready to have a healthy relationship with each other once again. 

I recommend finding a female friend to confide in. Someone who has experience and a female perspective that you can make a connection with, strictly platonic. I've found a couple recently and it has helped me a lot to keep things in perspective, help me make better choices, and have a different female to share my emotions and time with. Remember, as much healthy human contact as you can possibly get right now will help quite a bit.

Stay focused on improving your personal relationship with yourself, and improving your environment to better serve your needs. I wish the best for you.

The process is the purpose, the goal is irrelevant.


----------



## Mark72

Hmmmmm...

Well, time for an update. Friday night all that was said to me was that we would wait until Monday for me to move out because of the weather. Then Saturday came. She had planned to take the kids to Sam's Club, but asked me to come also. I went. 
It wasn't a bad time. I told her that I am getting a haircut today. Normally, I would have asked permission... I just told her I was getting it done. So on the way, she dropped me off at the Man Salon (the kind of place that has TVs that play nothing but sports, the hair stylists are all hot, and they massage you when you're done). And she waited outside. I got out and she handed me a cookie and a soda that she picked up for me at McDonalds. Now - usually, I woyuld be sent to Great Clips or she woulde have said "Just wait til after because I dont want to wait for you".
We got to Sams, and when it was all done, I told her to go get in line, that I was going to get something. I came back with a sled for the kids - she started to get a look on her face like "No, put that back" but I kept walking and told her I was taking the kids sledding today. 
When we were on our way back, she called her mom and asked her to watch the baby for a while because she wanted to go with me sledding with the kids.
We actually had the best day we have had in years. 
She was laughing with me and doing some of the cutsey things she used to do.
She made a point to say something about making plans for this Saturday and asked if I would take the kids to Build a Bear while she got her hair done, then we would meet up after. She also talked about getting the tax check on Thursday. Making some short plans... 
That night I was feeling frisky so we had sex. Halfway through it though she stopped and asked what we were doing because this isn't solving anything. She said that she doesn't feel anything toward me so ths is wrong. I told her she wants this and I want this - we both are having a great time, and we are married - so lets get it on. She said she doesn't feel the love for me and until she does again she doesnt want sex....
Well, I was at a lost for words, and by that time I was really tired so I left it at that.
The next morning she was sweet as she could be. She made me a smoothie and said she will get some Greek yogurt for me for when she makes them again...
She made several comments throughout the day that I would be home all day tomorrow (meaning Monday, the day I was to move out) - so she hinted that I am not going anywhere.
She was actually fairly sweet until her sister got there... yeah, the one that wants me out of the picture. If it wouldnt throw her whole family into a tailspin, I would tell her that I am seriously sorry that she is not able to expand her family right now (she is infertile and her adoption fell through last minute) - My heart goes out you. I wish you could have the family you want. But you cannot take mine.

Well, I slipped up a bit during bedtime... I still reach over there to rub on her... yeah I know... but I am still feeling a bit of confidence during the day. SO yesterday came and went, no conversation about me moving out and it seems she is now open to putting forth some effort... But we haven't discussed anything. I think bringing it up would seem desperate and needy so I'm not.


----------



## Mark72

CAMERON47 said:


> Mark, I hope things are working out for you.
> 
> When your FIL says you're being selfish, he's right. You need to be selfish to a certain extent, there is nothing wrong with being selfish, and it is an important step in healing yourself. Your top priority right now (besides your kids of course) should be taking care of yourself. I get this advice from everyone around me. You need to improve your mental and physical health from this traumatic experience. It all boils down to loving yourself and being in a good place mentally and physically, because if you're not there then you will continue to struggle with healthy relationships.
> 
> I suggest that you read up on codependency and how to break the addiction.
> 
> Learn to control your emotions by controlling what you choose to think about. If it causes emotional issues that are causing problems, then think about something else. There are emotional issues that you do need to deal with, most importantly your own issues with yourself.
> I have mine - porn,and spousal abuse. It's what led to our relationship falling apart, the fact that I emotionally escaped from the relationship because of being afraid of facing who I was and what I had done instead of facing my fears and opening up my heart completely to my wife.
> I wasn't happy with who I was because I resorted to pornography instead of facing my fears of being romantically involved with my wife to a degree that I was unfamiliar with. I was afraid of humiliation/embarrassment, but I didn't really have anything to worry about. If she truly loved me, it would work out. If I was confident with who I was then I wouldn't have to worry about feeling embarrassed or humiliated.
> I had lashed out at my wife a couple of times for her mean and hurtful words that made me snap. I lost control and hit her a couple of times. The guilt and shame has been bringing me down because I've never been able to accept myself for being imperfect and admitting to others of my horrible behavior. She had forgiven me, but I still struggle with it to this day.
> I had to figure these issues out in order to realize what I needed to overcome to feel better about myself. It's not easy, I still struggle with it, and admitting it is part of getting better.
> I realize that it was my insecurity with myself that led to these problems, and I won't accept not facing my fears anymore. It's the only way I'll be able to get better. No more emotional escaping.
> But, these are my personal issues, and what I've recognized that I need to deal with in order to move on and love myself once again.
> 
> Privacy. If she is putting up boundaries (filing for divorce and keeping you distant), then you need to have them too. So, her freaking out over you changing passwords is her own insecurity coming out, her own addictive behavior of emotional control over you. Recognize that having boundaries is important at this point in order to keep from going through emotional turmoil all of the time. Be honest, be gentle, and be emotionally detached in all of you communications. This must go on until you both are in a better place with yourselves and can be ready to have a healthy relationship with each other once again.
> 
> I recommend finding a female friend to confide in. Someone who has experience and a female perspective that you can make a connection with, strictly platonic. I've found a couple recently and it has helped me a lot to keep things in perspective, help me make better choices, and have a different female to share my emotions and time with. Remember, as much healthy human contact as you can possibly get right now will help quite a bit.
> 
> Stay focused on improving your personal relationship with yourself, and improving your environment to better serve your needs. I wish the best for you.
> 
> The process is the purpose, the goal is irrelevant.


My issues are basically being a people pleasing nice guy that used porn and one night stands as a substitute for true life. I'm makin changes. It's happening


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> Hmmmmm...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, time for an update. Friday night all that was said to me was that we would wait until Monday for me to move out because of the weather. Then Saturday came. She had planned to take the kids to Sam's Club, but asked me to come also. I went.
> 
> It wasn't a bad time. I told her that I am getting a haircut today. Normally, I would have asked permission... I just told her I was getting it done. So on the way, she dropped me off at the Man Salon (the kind of place that has TVs that play nothing but sports, the hair stylists are all hot, and they massage you when you're done). And she waited outside. I got out and she handed me a cookie and a soda that she picked up for me at McDonalds. Now - usually, I woyuld be sent to Great Clips or she woulde have said "Just wait til after because I dont want to wait for you".
> 
> We got to Sams, and when it was all done, I told her to go get in line, that I was going to get something. I came back with a sled for the kids - she started to get a look on her face like "No, put that back" but I kept walking and told her I was taking the kids sledding today.
> 
> When we were on our way back, she called her mom and asked her to watch the baby for a while because she wanted to go with me sledding with the kids.
> 
> We actually had the best day we have had in years.
> 
> She was laughing with me and doing some of the cutsey things she used to do.
> 
> She made a point to say something about making plans for this Saturday and asked if I would take the kids to Build a Bear while she got her hair done, then we would meet up after. She also talked about getting the tax check on Thursday. Making some short plans...
> 
> That night I was feeling frisky so we had sex. Halfway through it though she stopped and asked what we were doing because this isn't solving anything. She said that she doesn't feel anything toward me so ths is wrong. I told her she wants this and I want this - we both are having a great time, and we are married - so lets get it on. She said she doesn't feel the love for me and until she does again she doesnt want sex....
> 
> Well, I was at a lost for words, and by that time I was really tired so I left it at that.
> 
> The next morning she was sweet as she could be. She made me a smoothie and said she will get some Greek yogurt for me for when she makes them again...
> 
> She made several comments throughout the day that I would be home all day tomorrow (meaning Monday, the day I was to move out) - so she hinted that I am not going anywhere.
> 
> She was actually fairly sweet until her sister got there... yeah, the one that wants me out of the picture. If it wouldnt throw her whole family into a tailspin, I would tell her that I am seriously sorry that she is not able to expand her family right now (she is infertile and her adoption fell through last minute) - My heart goes out you. I wish you could have the family you want. But you cannot take mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I slipped up a bit during bedtime... I still reach over there to rub on her... yeah I know... but I am still feeling a bit of confidence during the day. SO yesterday came and went, no conversation about me moving out and it seems she is now open to putting forth some effort... But we haven't discussed anything. I think bringing it up would seem desperate and needy so I'm not.



Just keep doing what you're doing. Don't get needy. Don't feel the incessant need to explain what your doing. 

Picking up a sled, going to get your haircut on your terms, initiating sex instead of asking for it. These all show leadership. 

Whether she comes along is up to her. Don't change a thing. Then you can decide, if you want her along. Not the other way around.


----------



## Mark72

Well back to square one. I caved like a pansy tonight. Long story of explaining and needless....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble




----------



## Mr Blunt

> Re: Desperate
> *By Mark*
> Well back to square one. I caved like a pansy tonight. Long story of explaining and needless....





*Mark
Your wife has bitterness towards you for over 4 years, she does not respect you, you do not respect yourself, and you are improving but it is not enough for your wife to want you.*

Your wife is not going to change her opinion of you to any great degree without a significant occurrence that will change 5 years of disgust, resentment and bitterness. Your wife does not want you right now and your attempts for these last several years have not changed her mind; in fact she seems more adamant now.

*My advice to you is to start concentrating on you and STOP your tactics to win your wife back.* Your tactics to win your wife back are sucking a lot out of you and you do not have extra to be sucked out. Sooner or later you are going to have to face the fact that you are by far the only person that is going to get yourself better. Yes you can get help and should but in the end it is YOU. If you keep using what little strength that you have left to get your wife back you will lose double. 


Your wife does not want you and there is nothing you can do right now to win her back. Only if you become a stronger man will there be any chance at all. *To become a stronger man you need to concentrate on you; do not give a bunch of excuses as to why you can not concentrate on ONLY you. Those excuses have helped you to be in the condition you are in.*

When a person is so needy that they suck the life out of everyone involved then do not expect any wife to want you. At best you will be pitied but never admired.


Reprinted below is what you said a long tie ago:



> Quotes of Mark
> 
> When we split before, my main motivation was getting her back.
> Not this time.* My main motivation is serving Christ.
> My 2nd priority is restoration...*
> 
> What does God want? That's most important.
> 
> But unless she changes her mind and agrees to MC, I can do nothing about it. Either way, I am making changes for me.
> 
> Yes, the choice is hers. Yes we are creatures of free will. I am making changes in my life whether she comes back to me or not.


Your main motivation is not what you said. *Your main motivation is getting your wife back because you want her to do for you what you should do for yourself.* Your dependence on others as opposed to yourself is way out of whack.


*Others have gotten through such situations as you have and became more self sufficient and so can you.*


----------



## Mark72

Mr Blunt said:


> *Mark
> Your wife has bitterness towards you for over 4 years, she does not respect you, you do not respect yourself, and you are improving but it is not enough for your wife to want you.*
> 
> Your wife is not going to change her opinion of you to any great degree without a significant occurrence that will change 5 years of disgust, resentment and bitterness. Your wife does not want you right now and your attempts for these last several years have not changed her mind; in fact she seems more adamant now.
> 
> *My advice to you is to start concentrating on you and STOP your tactics to win your wife back.* Your tactics to win your wife back are sucking a lot out of you and you do not have extra to be sucked out. Sooner or later you are going to have to face the fact that you are by far the only person that is going to get yourself better. Yes you can get help and should but in the end it is YOU. If you keep using what little strength that you have left to get your wife back you will lose double.
> 
> 
> Your wife does not want you and there is nothing you can do right now to win her back. Only if you become a stronger man will there be any chance at all. *To become a stronger man you need to concentrate on you; do not give a bunch of excuses as to why you can not concentrate on ONLY you. Those excuses have helped you to be in the condition you are in.*
> 
> When a person is so needy that they suck the life out of everyone involved then do not expect any wife to want you. At best you will be pitied but never admired.
> 
> 
> Reprinted below is what you said a long tie ago:
> 
> 
> 
> Your main motivation is not what you said. *Your main motivation is getting your wife back because you want her to do for you what you should do for yourself.* Your dependence on others as opposed to yourself is way out of whack.
> 
> 
> *Others have gotten through such situations as you have and became more self sufficient and so can you.*


I get it. I really do. Getting my mindset there hasn't been easy but I am transitioning. Even if I know it's for the better, becomming someone I have never been is difficult and slow but I am doing it. 

Yes, keeping my family intact is still important to me. I can try to convince myself otherwise, but I don't believe it. All I can do is fake it the best I can. Some steps have been taken. I'm not there yet.


----------



## Mark72

The good thing is that my anxiety levels have decreased quite a bit. I'm not doing the rigorous exercise I should but I am doing 1.5 - 3 mile power walks nearly every day. I want to run a 5k this year. I've never done it. I'm doing a Heartwalk 5k this year, but I wanna run it. I really gotta get some weights.


----------



## Mark72

Meh... little more anxiety kickin in today but I'll make it. This is not the end of the world no matter what happens.


----------



## doubletrouble

Anxiety can motivate you or freeze you. Try to focus on the former.


----------



## Mark72

It sucks but I know I'll make it through.


----------



## Mark72

Bought some adjustable barbells yesterday. Not a lot of weight, but hey - I've not lifted in a long time and I need to get back into it. I'll add weights from the 2nd hand shop as I need them. 
I also got a 72" exercise ball. Doing flies on one of those things is tricky. But I have a good start and plenty of things to do to get me started.


----------



## LanieB

Keep up the good attitude, Mark. It's much more beneficial to focus on the positive things you can control, rather than things that are out of your hands. Exercise is one of the best things you can do for yourself, for so many reasons. No matter what happens with your marriage, you will be improving yourself.


----------



## doubletrouble

Do your exercise as a hobby. It's more fun if you look at it like that. And like Lanie said above, it's one thing that no matter what else happens in your life, nobody can take that success from you.


----------



## Mark72

Something I have been thinking about...
This people pleasing thing that I am overcoming... It is pretty selfish. The things I do to please people, I do to make them respond a certain way. Just like I read in NMMNG - covert contracts are made. A contract between myself and the person I am doing the thing for. Only I never discussed the deal with them. I never told them I expect such and such in return for what I do. This is pretty selfish and bad thinking...
I think a big chunk of this is that she thinks EVERYTHING I do for her I do with ulterior motives. I'm starting to wonder how close that is to the truth.
I don't do everything for people in order to get something. But I don't know where that cut off point is. I'm pretty confused and need to find some clarity


----------



## Conrad

You taught her how to treat you.

Owning that part of you is healthy.

It will help you stop running from your life.


----------



## Mark72

Honestly I feel like telling her that I am starting to see how she can feel that I was doing things just for what I would get in return. But to be able to say it without being a Nice Guy...


----------



## doubletrouble

"W, I've been thinking -- a lot -- and one of the things I started to wonder about myself was whether I manipulate you. And at first I thought hell no, I'm a nice guy; I wouldn't do that. But then I thought sometimes I do do things in order to get you, or others, to do something. And I decided I don't like that part of me, so I am trying to change it."

Just a thought. I'm gulty of the same things sometimes, and have worked to overcome that part of me. You don't get into an "I don't care" approach, but you stop worrying that people won't like you.


----------



## Mark72

Yeah...
I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed right now. Like all that I thought was right is wrong, and that I just won't figure this out any time soon. I want to... 
There are things that I genuinely like doing for her. But do I like doing them because it makes her happy or because I think I am making her love me and "working hard for her love"?


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Yeah...
> I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed right now. Like all that I thought was right is wrong, and that I just won't figure this out any time soon. I want to...
> There are things that I genuinely like doing for her. But do I like doing them because it makes her happy or because I think I am making her love me and "working hard for her love"?


Easy solution.

Do them if you are ok with doing them and receiving NOTHING in return.

And, be honest with yourself. (the hardest part)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/44287-nice-expectations-ticket-emotional-hell.html


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> Yeah...
> I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed right now. Like all that I thought was right is wrong, and that I just won't figure this out any time soon. I want to...
> There are things that I genuinely like doing for her. *But do I like doing them because it makes her happy or because I think I am making her love me and "working hard for her love"?*


It can be a sneaky thing in your mind. But here's another sh!t test for yourself. Is there anything in your action, whatever it is, that benefits you? Or is it something she totally wants, that you get nothing out of? 

You don't do things for compliments or sex or whatever reward. The reward is _intrinsic_, in that you get the satisfaction of doing something selfless for your loved one that makes them happy, period.


----------



## Mark72

You guys are making a lot of sense. I do a lot of things and not expect anything in return directly... but deep down I think that anything I do is worth at least ONE POINT... That's not the way it should be. It's not intentional. I've got to get out of that mind frame.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> You guys are making a lot of sense. I do a lot of things and not expect anything in return directly... but deep down I think that anything I do is worth at least ONE POINT... That's not the way it should be. It's not intentional. I've got to get out of that mind frame.


Let it go.

Just let it go.

Do what you are ok with doing.

Stop doing what you are not ok doing.


----------



## Mark72

I told her about the manipulation the other night.
Last night she asked me to give her a massage. I made it G rated.
THen we watched the movie and went to sleep.
Today she sent me an email with a house she wants to look at...

I'm optimistic but guarded


----------



## Mark72

It's been a fairly decent couple of days. I don't know what to think about this.


----------



## LanieB

Just be prepared for more emotional roller coaster rides, and keep working on YOU.


----------



## Mark72

Oh yeah... when things start going better, she pulls back a lot.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> It's been a fairly decent couple of days. I don't know what to think about this.


Think this about it.

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf

Stop lamenting the past.

Stop manipulating the future.

Live fully in this moment and claim your happiness.

You are finally truly changing the dynamic.


----------



## Mark72

I'd like to have a beer with all y'all


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I'd like to have a beer with all y'all


Anytime.


----------



## doubletrouble

or two


----------



## LanieB

Mark, I have a friend (a woman) who is basically in the same situation you're in. Her husband moved out, told her he wanted a divorce, then changed his mind and moved back home, then changed his mind and moved out again. Now he has been flip-flopping back and forth about what he wants. Meanwhile, my friend has been devastated and wanted to somehow save their marriage, so she has basically been letting him call all the shots, and pleading with him to come back and work on their marriage.

I told her to stop letting him come around (he calls a lot and wants to come over and hang out, but then go back to his apartment). Let him know exactly what separation (and possible divorce) feels like. 

Well last night, when he called and wanted to come over, she finally told him, "NO. No more. I'm done. Go to a lawyer, get the divorce papers, and I will sign them! I'm not doing this any longer. Stop calling me, and if you want to see the kids, take them to your place." I'm so proud of her. She stood up for herself, after letting herself start to detach from him. And guess what??? Now he wants to come home! (Of course) But she isn't going to let him. She might let him come home someday, but it will take a lot of work on his part to convince her. 

You need to do this too, Mark. Your wife has become your puppet-master. You said things have been going well for a few days. If/when this changes, you need to make a decision. Either stay and resign yourself to living according to her ever-changing whims, or officially separate and let her experience life without you. She will either enjoy your absence and divorce you, which would, in the end, make both of you happier. Or she will realize she wants to work on your marriage.


----------



## doubletrouble

What Lanie said.


----------



## Mark72

Well, so far no change. We had a fantastic weekend. Sex is still a bit slow but I'm seeing a change int the way she looks/talks to me. There is some respect behind it.
Let's see if both of us continue to work on changes to ourselves for the better


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well, so far no change. We had a fantastic weekend. Sex is still a bit slow but I'm seeing a change int the way she looks/talks to me. There is some respect behind it.
> Let's see if both of us continue to work on changes to ourselves for the better


You keep your A game... and don't worry about her.

She'll follow.

It's what she's always wanted.

Are you initiating any hobbies or interests that do not include her?


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Ok. DANG it, Conrad. I said I was going away, but I just had to pick up the computer tonight after my kids were asleep!!!!!!

Mark,

I'm going to hit you pretty hard here. I know where Conrad is coming from, and from his point of view it makes complete sense. BUT, I have walked in your shoes. (much closer than I ever care to mention) Miscarriage, etc. It really is crazy the similarities in some ways.

Now, here is the problem in dealing with manipulative women. (yes, your wife is a manipulative person) Once they find the hot spot to torture you with, they will use it. She knows you have a problem with sex. However, she is going to torture you with that saying she wants a divorce, but still showing some interest sexually in certain points. See, my ex, absolutely did not lose physical interest in me.... (which is hilarious for me to know now by the way) (YES, Conrad, I read her entire "old" smartphone that my kid left here. It had texts from all that time frame to friends/family. OMG.)

Lanie is right, you have just spent entirely too long allowing this women to play this completely wicked game with you. FIRST: I would absolutely, positively, not put up with my FIL talking to me that way in an email. SECOND: Remove your in laws from this garbage. Get out and change your living situation....immediately. THIRD:



> Well, so far no change. We had a fantastic weekend. Sex is still a bit slow but I'm seeing a change int the way she looks/talks to me. There is some respect behind it.
> Let's see if both of us continue to work on changes to ourselves for the better


This is garbage. "I'm seeing a change in the way she looks/talks to me." STOP IT. WHO CARES HOW SHE IS TALKING TO YOU!?! She is manipulative. She will talk to you how she wants in order to meet her own wants or desires at that moment. Get off of trying to look for hope or watching her reactions. Trust in *yourself* to be ok regardless of what she does. 

Lastly, I want you to know that divorce is NOT BAD. I'm telling you I'm living a dang dream now compared to living with a woman who is confused and eaten up with resentment. (which your wife is) *She is controlling your ability to work, be a father, and be a solid friend to other men.* Heck, she is killing your manhood. You talked earlier about what God wants. DO you know what God wants? He wants your heart, her heart. AND He will allow anything, even something He hates (divorce), in order to bring you closer. You have a purpose on this earth as a man....... a purpose. For the past few years, you have neglected that purpose. From what it sounds like, you have done it for far longer than that.

I have seen 7 marriages reconciled from sure divorce because of my trials and my victory through it. You are a man. Find yourself. That is your cause. NOT saving your marriage. STOP allowing this dramatic craziness to deter you from living a life of abundance. Live it, and she can join you if she wants. No sweat of your brow either way.

Adding this: 

The way you really tell that a woman is actually trying......

Does she know your love language? Is she using it? 
Are there situations where she puts your needs above her own and is happy about it?
Does she say "thank you" every time you do something for her?
Does she say "I'm sorry" when she is wrong? or after an argument?

Now, these might not seem that big to you, but they are signs that a woman is trying to action herself into emotion. You need to be very 'factual' about her. Not, "the way she looks" or "seems to be some respect behind it". She is very good at wearing the "mask". AND, by GOD, do not have unprotected sex with her.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Ok. DANG it, Conrad. I said I was going away, but I just had to pick up the computer tonight after my kids were asleep!!!!!!


Deadicated,

It's a hard habit to break


----------



## Mark72

Decdicated, 

To be honest, she is taking more of an interest in my needs
My love language is touch. She knows this. This has been more frequent lately. She is approaching me.
She has made clear - not by word but by action - that she is making effort to better herself and be more sensitive to my needs. When we got back together 2 years ago, it was more of the attitude that she would allow me to come back and she would put up with me.
Now she is starting to develop the attitude that this is a marriage, and both of us need to put forth an effort.
No, she has not changed overnight. Neither have I. I still do "nice guy" things, but not as often. I have more confidence but I have not overcome my insecurities altogether.
Yeah I may be looking for rainbows and sunshine at midnight, but I do see steps taken in the right direction. I am guarded but optimistic. I am still working on me but enjoying riding this wave for the moment.


----------



## Mark72

I really want to keep coming back in here and journaling. Nothing much to bring up today.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> Decdicated,
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest, she is taking more of an interest in my needs
> 
> My love language is touch. She knows this. This has been more frequent lately. She is approaching me.
> 
> She has made clear - not by word but by action - that she is making effort to better herself and be more sensitive to my needs. When we got back together 2 years ago, it was more of the attitude that she would allow me to come back and she would put up with me.
> 
> Now she is starting to develop the attitude that this is a marriage, and both of us need to put forth an effort.
> 
> No, she has not changed overnight. Neither have I. I still do "nice guy" things, but not as often. I have more confidence but I have not overcome my insecurities altogether.
> 
> Yeah I may be looking for rainbows and sunshine at midnight, but I do see steps taken in the right direction. I am guarded but optimistic. I am still working on me but enjoying riding this wave for the moment.



Here's where we fear for you. 

My personal experience, my wife had an affair. She came to me and fessed up. She was 100% apologetic, claimed she would do anything to save the marriage and out family. She did everything I asked. NC with the OM. IC for her demons. She accepted that the PA was 100% hers despite structural problems. 

We have been R'd 4.5 years. 

This outsider see no clear effort on your wife's part by her actions. I see her as manipulating. She's on the hamster wheel of rationalization buddy. It looks like she's become aware that her lifestyle is about to change, but until she literally begs for forgiveness you should suspect all motives.


----------



## Mark72

Telling her that she has to beg for my forgiveness and crawl through glass is not something I am going to do.
I didn't like the idea of breaking up my family and splitting up. I was closer to prepared to do that than I was when we actually did split up in 2012. It is not in my character to do that. I'm working on assertive, but that, to me, goes beyind assertiveness. If there are consequences to not doing that, then I'm prepared to face them.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

> Telling her that she has to beg for my forgiveness and crawl through glass is not something I am going to do.



UMMM. Duh. Of course not. You don't tell her anything. It's something that just happens because of the humbleness of the wayward.

I used to feel the same way you do. Life lesson and all that.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> UMMM. Duh. Of course not. You don't tell her anything. It's something that just happens because of the humbleness of the wayward.
> 
> I used to feel the same way you do. Life lesson and all that.


And if she doesn't beg for forgiveness, what's my play?


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Telling her that she has to beg for my forgiveness and crawl through glass is not something I am going to do.
> I didn't like the idea of breaking up my family and splitting up. I was closer to prepared to do that than I was when we actually did split up in 2012. It is not in my character to do that. I'm working on assertive, but that, to me, goes beyind assertiveness. If there are consequences to not doing that, then I'm prepared to face them.


Mark,

I actually laughed out loud.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> And if she doesn't beg for forgiveness, what's my play?


You have no play. You have effectively set yourself into a vortex of bs by allowing her to do whatever her heart feels at the moment. Of course, a "play" would mean that you are also manipulating to get what you desire. (your family together) You are powerless until you can recognize that you cannot do, say, act out anything that will change her mind or make her act the way you desire her to act as a wife. Until you come to a place of peace where she cannot pull at your emotions like a puppet, you really can't be who you were created to be. 

And, you can't say she doesn't (string pull), because it is written in all your posts. You are watching her every move. Watching, waiting for some sign that she is turning the corner. She shows some signs, you get your hopes up, then one day she flips. It sends you down a dark path. (this in itself shows her that she doesn't need to ask for forgiveness or humble herself)

Do you have a support group of men in real life? You need to spend time with them.


----------



## Mark72

This is the thing.
I had resolved to the point that I was going to move out. I didn't want to. But I had prepared myself for it. 
Then about the time that I was supposed to move, she starts acting the way that I would like her to act. A little more each day. Yeah... I am hanging on that. I admit it freely. This is what I want. 
Every day has been getting better on her end. I'm getting better at not "needing" her approval/affection/etc for everything. 
I have detatched a little bit. Yeah I am clinging to the hope that we find our way through this. I haven't made a complete transformation yet. But I'm getting better. So is she.


----------



## doubletrouble

I pray that works, Mark, I do.


----------



## Mark72

Me too.
This is what I know without a doubt:
1. I don't like being a people pleaser. I DO like doing things for people but not to the extent that I feel I must do it in order to be liked. I am learning that I don't need to be liked/approved by everyone. 

2. I still love my wife. I have detatched in the past couple months some, but I still love her. 

3. I do not believe in divorce. I hate it. I've seen too many of them in my family and I don't want to play that card. Not unless I have no other moves. I'll hang on longer than I need to...

4. We haven't really been happy in years. I've noticed that is starting to change.

Everything else is just a guess at this point. It's all unknown territory. I've never known until I found this site what a "nice guy" is. I thought I was doing it right. I learned how to be a man by watching my mother. Not the men in her life... I watched her reaction to things they did and assumed that she always had the right reaction... The problem is, she was also very insecure and suffered from depression. So I had a really skewed view of what manhood should be from a woman's perspective. But at least I know what I'm dealing with now.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> Me too.
> This is what I know without a doubt:
> 1. I don't like being a people pleaser. I DO like doing things for people but not to the extent that I feel I must do it in order to be liked. I am learning that I don't need to be liked/approved by everyone.
> *I think we start this in school as kids, trying to be accepted, trying to be "seen" by others. *
> 2. I still love my wife. I have detatched in the past couple months some, but I still love her.
> *That happens... I stayed in my last marriage probably 10 years past its expiration date. I also had the "feel sorry for her" card to deeal with when she was diagnosed with cancer. I stayed because of that for several years, until she was pronounced in remission.*
> 3. I do not believe in divorce. I hate it. I've seen too many of them in my family and I don't want to play that card. Not unless I have no other moves. I'll hang on longer than I need to...
> *Divorce should be the last resort. You both promised to stick it out for better or worse. *
> 4. We haven't really been happy in years. I've noticed that is starting to change.
> *It takes a long time to get where you got to, and it can take a long time to get to where you want to be. As long as you are both pulling the wagon in the same direction however, it can be done. *
> Everything else is just a guess at this point. It's all unknown territory. I've never known until I found this site what a "nice guy" is. I thought I was doing it right. I learned how to be a man by watching my mother. Not the men in her life... I watched her reaction to things they did and assumed that she always had the right reaction... The problem is, she was also very insecure and suffered from depression. So I had a really skewed view of what manhood should be from a woman's perspective. But at least I know what I'm dealing with now.


I read you as being very introspective and intelligent, and also emotionally "crippled" by love for your W. While this is not a bad thing, or crippling in a "normal" relationship (whatever that is), in your situation it keeps you stuck. Been there done that. 

I did the same kind of thing with my mother. My father was in a bad car accident when I was about 3 years old, and it affected his brain. He was always rather disengaged, although I have never doubted he loved his kids. He's a good man, a great man, gentle and totally faithful to Mom. Also submissive, because he lost the fight in him when his skull was partly crushed. 

The mother can be the alpha partner (not like "TAM alpha," but the family leader in other respects) and naturally the kids look to the one most engaged. If your mother was a SAHM (as mine was) that makes the effect even more pronounced. We don't see their defects until much later in life, and even then sometimes it takes another loved one to point things out that we can't see.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> This is the thing.
> I had resolved to the point that I was going to move out. I didn't want to. But I had prepared myself for it.
> Then about the time that I was supposed to move, she starts acting the way that I would like her to act. A little more each day. Yeah... I am hanging on that. I admit it freely. This is what I want.
> Every day has been getting better on her end. I'm getting better at not "needing" her approval/affection/etc for everything.
> I have detatched a little bit. Yeah I am clinging to the hope that we find our way through this. I haven't made a complete transformation yet. But I'm getting better. So is she.


I've been through all that. It seemed it would never end. Literally, I could have wrote this exact quote 3 months before I moved out.



> 1. I don't like being a people pleaser. I DO like doing things for people but not to the extent that I feel I must do it in order to be liked. I am learning that I don't need to be liked/approved by everyone.
> 
> 2. I still love my wife. I have detatched in the past couple months some, but I still love her.
> 
> 3. I do not believe in divorce. I hate it. I've seen too many of them in my family and I don't want to play that card. Not unless I have no other moves. I'll hang on longer than I need to...
> 
> 4. We haven't really been happy in years. I've noticed that is starting to change.
> 
> Everything else is just a guess at this point. It's all unknown territory. I've never known until I found this site what a "nice guy" is. I thought I was doing it right. I learned how to be a man by watching my mother. Not the men in her life... I watched her reaction to things they did and assumed that she always had the right reaction... The problem is, she was also very insecure and suffered from depression. So I had a really skewed view of what manhood should be from a woman's perspective. But at least I know what I'm dealing with now.


You will find that the "love" you have for your wife will most likely never go away. It just gets buried somewhere deep in the event you divorce. Most recently, my ex has started to really engage me on things, and I have had to place additional boundries. It isn't the easy thing to do, but it definitely is the right thing to do.

I always think back to Job. Satan took everything from him, but, guess what, his nagging wife. I can tell you that there is a great satisfaction in looking at yourself after persevering severe marriage trauma and saying you did everything you could. I have the advantage of being through it, doing everything you could possibly ask a man to do, coming out of the other side with a bright future/ and a completely different man. That's why my perspective is different. My life and my children's lives are and will be better because of divorce.

It isn't the divorce that is bad. It, as anything in life, is how you respond to it that determines the impact....positive or negative.

I hope it works out for you......


----------



## Conrad

Deadicated,

You did everything - AND MORE. And, you know what, I was too rough on you at times. I hope you've accepted my apology for the tone I had when I first started to find "religion".

But, keep in mind...Mark still gets laid.

In the end, that's usually the dividing line.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Conrad said:


> Deadicated,
> 
> You did everything - AND MORE. And, you know what, I was too rough on you at times. I hope you've accepted my apology for the tone I had when I first started to find "religion".
> 
> But, keep in mind...Mark still gets laid.
> 
> In the end, that's usually the dividing line.


Of course, I have. I always had an appreciation for our differing points of view.

I do keep in mind that he "gets laid". Problem is, typically getting laid in these type of circumstances is relatively dull. Before our therapist told us to stop having sex, we were still engaging in it. The sex.......now that I have been out of the marriage and experienced what I have......was horribly bad. Bad sex is not worth living in a place where you literally feel like you are walking on eggshells. Especially, when you can get good sex with ease. (even before the gf) You don't realize the emotional trauma you are going through until you get out of it.

I would do it all exactly how it went down all over again. The result: I have an amazing girlfriend. My kids love me. I can operate as the father I always was meant to be. I am an everyday improving person. I have the best sex life I have ever had. (and it's not even remotely close)

Most women don't know how amazing a persevering man is until he is gone. Then, the regret for them sets in.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Of course, I have. I always had an appreciation for our differing points of view.
> 
> I do keep in mind that he "gets laid". Problem is, typically getting laid in these type of circumstances is relatively dull. Before our therapist told us to stop having sex, we were still engaging in it. The sex.......now that I have been out of the marriage and experienced what I have......was horribly bad. Bad sex is not worth living in a place where you literally feel like you are walking on eggshells. Especially, when you can get good sex with ease. (even before the gf) You don't realize the emotional trauma you are going through until you get out of it.
> 
> I would do it all exactly how it went down all over again. The result: I have an amazing girlfriend. My kids love me. I can operate as the father I always was meant to be. I am an everyday improving person. I have the best sex life I have ever had. (and it's not even remotely close)
> 
> Most women don't know how amazing a persevering man is until he is gone. Then, the regret for them sets in.


Most of them don't get pregnant immediately with the first guy, but we each make our choices

I'll leave it for Mark to decide if the sex is good enough


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Conrad said:


> Most of them don't get pregnant immediately with the first guy, but we each make our choices
> 
> I'll leave it for Mark to decide if the sex is good enough


LOL. It was the second...... 

Yeah. I've got stories......


----------



## Mark72

The thing is... I haven't done everything I can do. 
THe sex is improving... It's not as passionate, regular, spontaneous, or freaky as it once was though... Again, I am not ready to call it quits


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> The thing is... I haven't done everything I can do.
> THe sex is improving... It's not as passionate, regular, spontaneous, or freaky as it once was though... Again, I am not ready to call it quits


Mark,

She's still attracted to you or she wouldn't be banging you.

There's work to do, but there's realistic hope it pays off.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Mark,
> 
> She's still attracted to you or she wouldn't be banging you.
> 
> There's work to do, but there's realistic hope it pays off.


I really need to increase my sex rank... I am remembering all the crap we used to do...


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I really need to increase my sex rank... I am remembering all the crap we used to do...


Get to work on the goal.

Do not quit until achieved.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Get to work on the goal.
> 
> Do not quit until achieved.


Not even then


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Not even then


Mark, this is the thing you have to remember. Their really isn't an overall "goal" here, and sex has a lot to do with you. (How you view yourself/your confidence/your fitness)

For example, almost 4 years ago I started on this journey. I look back at my pics of the 245 lb sloth of a man, and I just shake my head. My life is completely different. I'm now 205 lbs (up from 185 because of lifting), 32 inch waist. I compete in crossfit. For the first time in my life, I have a six pack. I can do things in the bed that should be downright outlawed because of the flexibility and strength. Everything I eat is to do one of two things: build muscle and recover or increase my free testosterone. When you get that confidence, having 1 hour sessions in which your partner literally can't take anymore because her body is just done (too many o's) is normal. 

And it doesn't end there, I read a lot now. I don't watch much tv. I'm always outside or at the gym or at home DOING SOMETHING. I was a HUGE college football fan (played in college) before. Now I MIGHT catch a game on the weekend during the season. My entire personality and interests have changed. It is a daily push to become the best man I can be. And, the point to me bringing up the things in this thread are to give you one specific message.......if she leaves or if she wants a divorce, it's not that big of a deal. Once a man takes fear out of the equation, it balances the relationship.

Do what you need to do to be true to yourself. Let the results take care of themselves.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Mark, this is the thing you have to remember. Their really isn't an overall "goal" here, and sex has a lot to do with you. (How you view yourself/your confidence/your fitness)
> 
> For example, almost 4 years ago I started on this journey. I look back at my pics of the 245 lb sloth of a man, and I just shake my head. My life is completely different. I'm now 205 lbs (up from 185 because of lifting), 32 inch waist. I compete in crossfit. For the first time in my life, I have a six pack. I can do things in the bed that should be downright outlawed because of the flexibility and strength. Everything I eat is to do one of two things: build muscle and recover or increase my free testosterone. When you get that confidence, having 1 hour sessions in which your partner literally can't take anymore because her body is just done (too many o's) is normal.
> 
> And it doesn't end there, I read a lot now. I don't watch much tv. I'm always outside or at the gym or at home DOING SOMETHING. I was a HUGE college football fan (played in college) before. Now I MIGHT catch a game on the weekend during the season. My entire personality and interests have changed. It is a daily push to become the best man I can be. And, the point to me bringing up the things in this thread are to give you one specific message.......if she leaves or if she wants a divorce, it's not that big of a deal. Once a man takes fear out of the equation, it balances the relationship.
> 
> Do what you need to do to be true to yourself. Let the results take care of themselves.


Yeah... I don't like talking about this but WTF... every since we split up I've been having issues. 
I can still ive her several O's (I know where all her spots are) but I think anxiety comes into play sometimes.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Yeah... I don't like talking about this but WTF... every since we split up I've been having issues.
> I can still ive her several O's (I know where all her spots are) but I think anxiety comes into play sometimes.


That's to be expected. When a man undergoes the trauma of possibly losing his family and his wife not "loving" him anymore, his self confidence takes a huge hit. Doing the daily things to improve is the way to recover. Mind/body/soul......increase your sex rank for your self confidence to reduce your reliance on approval from your wife. Everyday is a consistent "make yourself do the actions" kind of thing.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> That's to be expected. When a man undergoes the trauma of possibly losing his family and his wife not "loving" him anymore, his self confidence takes a huge hit. Doing the daily things to improve is the way to recover. Mind/body/soul......increase your sex rank for your self confidence to reduce your reliance on approval from your wife. Everyday is a consistent "make yourself do the actions" kind of thing.


Got a lot on the plate. Taking the option of putting off exercising another day is tough for me...


----------



## doubletrouble

It has to be part of your routine day. Like showering. It's just what you do. 

I found that I would get grumpy if I DIDN'T get my workouts.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Dedicated2Her said:


> I hear you. I have 4 kids and a demanding job. While trying to deal with all the bs, I had to find a way.......everyday.



I can't second this enough. Physical fitness should be number one priority. Not 2nd after the kids. Not after the wife. Not even after the job. NUMBER 1. 

I'm a crossfitter too. I go 4 times a week. I travel 60% of the time, but I can still find time. Because I make it number one, everything else falls into place. 

I still spend quality time with the kids. I'm way happier. I sleep like a pro (also a paleo eater). Sex drive is through the roof. 

You know what? I'm starting to get that triangle shape back. Women are starting to notice me. I made a woman bump and stumble going into her office the other day. Full hair twirl the whole bit. My wife is picking up on it to. In a good way. 

Number 1 priority.


----------



## Mark72

Sex DRIVE/LIBIDO isn't the issue.
I have 2 issues and both of them are psychological because they aren't there 100% of the time.

I have always been a procrastinator. I am trying to get over my laziness. There, I said it... It's a challenge


----------



## Mark72

Something she said to me last night is making me think...
She told me that when she is actively separating, I try really hard. Now that she is back, I stop trying as hard.

That's why I need to keep coming in here and journaling, and why I value feedback. I AM lazy. I gotta drop that laziness. I get to my comfort zone even if my comfort zone isn't where I want to be. 
Proverbs 26:11 - Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folley.
This crap DOESN'T taste better the 2nd time...


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Fear of loss.........

So many of us act with this. That fear must be removed. It isn't about laziness only. It's about focus. You make your wife attracted to you by becoming a better man. Focus on that. It take time once you start to do the actions to trust in God and trust in the God who lives in you. 

It takes a year to truly change once you start pushing yourself to action. Get a structure together on how you are going to address your mind, your body, and your soul in some form everyday. It isn't easy, but I am living proof that it's possible.

You will become consistent with your messages over time.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Fear of loss.........
> 
> So many of us act with this. That fear must be removed. It isn't about laziness only. It's about focus. You make your wife attracted to you by becoming a better man. Focus on that. It take time once you start to do the actions to trust in God and trust in the God who lives in you.
> 
> It takes a year to truly change once you start pushing yourself to action. Get a structure together on how you are going to address your mind, your body, and your soul in some form everyday. It isn't easy, but I am living proof that it's possible.
> 
> You will become consistent with your messages over time.


Well... I think the fear of loss is dwindling.
She spent the day with her sister yesterday because I went on a 5k.
I walked most of it and my time was 45ish minutes but I completed it. Everyone in the family noticed except her. So I didnt say anything to her. I came home sore and tired but put a new tie rod on my car (It was coooolllld). This was AFTER I went over to her sisters at my BIL's request to help him move a couch (side note - no beef with BIL, but I dont care for SIL)
Anyway, I finished putting on the tie rod pretty quickly, so I went to get a tire put on and get it aligned but being Sunday I had to wait until this morning.
She got up this morning and asked me to help her clean up the room (put clothes away, which is something I always do on my own).
I told her that I have to gt the car finished, she said she would do it herself (very snippy - expecting me to say OH NO honey I'll do it).
I said OK and kept getting ready. She has the day off so she has plenty of time.
She took all my clothes out of the pile and took her stuff and the kids stuff down to wash. She came back up and took the wedding set that we just bought and said "If you think this is gonna solve anything, you can just take it back" and walked away.
After she decided to stick together she wanted to get a new bridal ring set because we had to sell the engagement ring a few years ago since we were broke at the time. She picked it out and it just came in last week.
I haven't said anything to her since. She took our daughter to school and left the boys there so I couldn't leave to get my tire changed before I went to work.
She is playing games again. I'm tired of the games. Yes, I'd rather have my old wife back but I don't want to be with this woman. So it's her choice.


----------



## Mark72

Update - Now she's sending me emails asking if I am ignoring her and if I even went to work today....
Delete


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Update - Now she's sending me emails asking if I am ignoring her and if I even went to work today....
> Delete


Keep ignoring it.

When she eventually asks you why, "I wasn't ok with how things went Sunday morning"


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Keep ignoring it.
> 
> When she eventually asks you why, "I wasn't ok with how things went Sunday morning"


Ugh
She is one sh!t test after another.
I would rather go to a cubs game than deal with this...
well almost.


----------



## Mark72

tom67 said:


> Ugh
> She is one sh!t test after another.
> I would rather go to a cubs game than deal with this...
> well almost.


Me too.
And I'm a Reds fan.


----------



## tom67

Mark72 said:


> Me too.
> And I'm a Reds fan.



Reds will dominate that season series.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Keep ignoring it.
> 
> When she eventually asks you why, "I wasn't ok with how things went Sunday morning"


I had just sent her a quick message "I'm busy right now" after the 3rd email...


----------



## Mark72

tom67 said:


> Reds will dominate that season series.


i HOPE SO


----------



## Mark72

She seriously has some anger issues that she needs to get help for.
She barely aknowledges them and when she does she blames everyone else for them. It's her choice. Her response is her responsibility.


----------



## LanieB

Mark, you will eventually get to a point in time where you will be so sick of her, there will be nothing left. You will be RELIEVED to divorce.


----------



## southern wife

Mark72 said:


> She got up this morning and asked me to help her clean up the room (put clothes away, which is something I always do on my own).
> I told her that I have to gt the car finished, she said she would do it herself (very snippy - expecting me to say OH NO honey I'll do it).
> I said OK and kept getting ready. She has the day off so she has plenty of time.
> She took all my clothes out of the pile and took her stuff and the kids stuff down to wash. *She came back up and took the wedding set that we just bought and said "If you think this is gonna solve anything, you can just take it back" and walked away.*
> After she decided to stick together she wanted to get a new bridal ring set because we had to sell the engagement ring a few years ago since we were broke at the time. She picked it out and it just came in last week.
> I haven't said anything to her since. She took our daughter to school and left the boys there so I couldn't leave to get my tire changed before I went to work.
> She is playing games again. I'm tired of the games. Yes, I'd rather have my old wife back but I don't want to be with this woman. So it's her choice.


So take the ring(s) back and get your money back! What's stopping you? 

Don't let her "test" you like that. :rules:


----------



## Conrad

southern wife said:


> So take the ring(s) back and get your money back! What's stopping you?
> 
> Don't let her "test" you like that. :rules:


Amen.....

Do it immediately.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Amen.....
> 
> Do it immediately.


They are in my car.
The problem is that most of the money will go back to the joint account.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> They are in my car.
> The problem is that most of the money will go back to the joint account.


Who cares? Do it anyway. Funny thing is that she WILL get passive aggressive about you taking them back. Real Peachy. My favorite line to my now ex ......."Are you really that unhappy with yourself?" and do it laughing.

Make yourself happy. Be a happy parent to your kids. Let her look like the angry freak show. My ex played these games non stop. The greatest day of my life was the day I moved into my apt. 



> "If you think this is gonna solve anything, you can just take it back"


On second thought, don't take it back. It plays into her stupid games with games. Taking it back shows that she is affecting you and using her passive aggressiveness to affect you. It makes her feel in control.


----------



## Mark72

I'm 100% positive that she is banking on me trying really hard to smooth things over tonight and tomorrow and not taking the rings back... or just flat out begging her to wear them again.
It's a game. I don't know if she's had too much time with her sister yesterday or what but she came unglued...
She chose to do that and there are consequences to every action


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I'm 100% positive that she is banking on me trying really hard to smooth things over tonight and tomorrow and not taking the rings back... or just flat out begging her to wear them again.
> It's a game. I don't know if she's had too much time with her sister yesterday or what but she came unglued...
> She chose to do that and there are consequences to every action


Well, do what you want, but I stopped playing the game and just became really involved in my development as a man. I became very happy. It caused my ex to implode. They either implode or rise to the occasion.

I wouldn't try to attempt to smooth anything over or talking to her about it or take the rings back. I would let her approach me and respond accordingly. Her approach will most likely be that of, "you don't understand" or "you this or that"..... My response would be "I'm sorry you feel that way."


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> They are in my car.
> 
> The problem is that most of the money will go back to the joint account.



There's ways around that. The real reason is it's a shît test. So take those rings back and call it!


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Well, do what you want, but I stopped playing the game and just became really involved in my development as a man. I became very happy. It caused my ex to implode. They either implode or rise to the occasion.
> 
> I wouldn't try to attempt to smooth anything over or talking to her about it or take the rings back. I would let her approach me and respond accordingly. Her approach will most likely be that of, "you don't understand" or "you this or that"..... My response would be "I'm sorry you feel that way."


And, if she persists, "I don't like where this conversation is headed", then remove yourself from the situation.

Do not sit still for the abuse.


----------



## Mark72

Last night she that she has the right not to trust me nor respect me. 
I changed all my passwords for email and facebook when she started talking separation a few months ago.
Then she said that I am a holier than thou guy because I go to bible studies and rub it in her face that I read the bible all the time - by the way that is a complete lie... I don't even discuss it with her... also that I am too feminine in that I am needy and clingy.
She is digging and coming up empty but trying to sell me that she has a gold mine. She doesn't address her anger issues, she just redirects them at me... I'm the source of them. I have all the power in the world over her --- funny thing is, if that were the case, whenever I did good and admirable things she would be in a pleasant mood.
Funny how I only have the power over her to make her cranky.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Last night she that she has the right not to trust me nor respect me.
> I changed all my passwords for email and facebook when she started talking separation a few months ago.
> Then she said that I am a holier than thou guy because I go to bible studies and rub it in her face that I read the bible all the time - by the way that is a complete lie... I don't even discuss it with her... also that I am too feminine in that I am needy and clingy.
> She is digging and coming up empty but trying to sell me that she has a gold mine. She doesn't address her anger issues, she just redirects them at me... I'm the source of them. I have all the power in the world over her --- funny thing is, if that were the case, whenever I did good and admirable things she would be in a pleasant mood.
> Funny how I only have the power over her to make her cranky.


The manipulation is STRONG with this one.... (in my best yoda voice)


----------



## Mark72

Dammit now I'm getting bummed out again.
This f-ing blows


----------



## Mark72

I just got a PO box today. Having my mail forwarded there. I am going to make any pending moves as seamless as possible. I'm tired of living this way. it's time to poo or get off the pot.


----------



## Mark72

Just for giggles, I think I am going to get a VOX recorder and put it under her seat tonight. 
She informed me that she is going out with the girls tomorrow afternoon to eat sushi.
I told her have fun and nothing else was said to her.


----------



## LanieB

Mark72 said:


> I just got a PO box today. Having my mail forwarded there. I am going to make any pending moves as seamless as possible. I'm tired of living this way. it's time to poo or get off the pot.


It really sounds like it's time, Mark. You've been doing the same thing over and over and not getting any different results. Time to do something different.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

LanieB said:


> It really sounds like it's time, Mark. You've been doing the same thing over and over and not getting any different results. Time to do something different.


One of my favorite quotes or sayings that I haven't seen lately from Conrad and my epic disputes back 3 years ago was this:

"Give the defiant what they want."

Those defiant people sure do get humble down the road. The truth always comes out over time. Always.


----------



## LanieB

Dedicated2Her said:


> One of my favorite quotes or sayings that I haven't seen lately from Conrad and my epic disputes back 3 years ago was this:
> 
> "Give the defiant what they want."
> 
> Those defiant people sure do get humble down the road. The truth always comes out over time. Always.


EXACTLY. Call that bluff, but only if you're willing to back it up. If your spouse doesn't want you around, then leave. No matter what happens, in the end, it will be the best decision for everyone.


----------



## Mark72

Well - I am sticking to one thing - I don't want a divorce. It's not that I think she is a wonderful woman, although I believe she could be if she wanted to.
I have my convictions about it. It may be inevitable but unless I have done everything I can to prevent it, I will not go through with it.
The exception being if I catch her in A...


----------



## LanieB

If you separate, will she agree to not see other people, and seriously work on your marriage? (and you're SURE there's no affair - no one even remotely interesting to her??)


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Well - I am sticking to one thing - I don't want a divorce. It's not that I think she is a wonderful woman, although I believe she could be if she wanted to.
> I have my convictions about it. It may be inevitable but unless I have done everything I can to prevent it, I will not go through with it.
> The exception being if I catch her in A...


I've seen separations end up working out where the marriage is saved. It may just be that you both need space. If she agrees to not see anyone else, and you guys go to counseling then you have a good shot as long as both of you remain true to the relationship.


----------



## U.E. McGill

My wife had a PA and she never treated me this poorly. 

You may save your marriage. But only when she realizes you are willing to sacrifice it all.


----------



## Mark72

I'm just so tired of this.


----------



## LanieB

It's Spring, Mark. Time for a new outlook. Time to pound it into your head that you don't have to be miserable for the rest of your life. You can be happy.


----------



## Mark72

I bought the VOX recorder. Not expecting to hear anything but I want to rule everything out. It's not the best quality but I tested it in my car with the motor running and the stereo off and it was fairly clear.

If I find something then I'll at least know.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I bought the VOX recorder. Not expecting to hear anything but I want to rule everything out. It's not the best quality but I tested it in my car with the motor running and the stereo off and it was fairly clear.
> 
> If I find something then I'll at least know.


I'm going to caution you. You will not be able to "unhear" things. You already know what she thinks about you. Telling her friends will be unfiltered crap from a very emotionally unstable, unhappy, person. Just fyi.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> I'm going to caution you. You will not be able to "unhear" things. You already know what she thinks about you. Telling her friends will be unfiltered crap from a very emotionally unstable, unhappy, person. Just fyi.


It might be what I need to hear to kick me into shape and detach a little more.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> It might be what I need to hear to kick me into shape and detach a little more.



Maybe. In my situation, it didn't cause more detachment.....just more hurt.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Maybe. In my situation, it didn't cause more detachment.....just more hurt.


It's all been said to my face also.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Conrad said:


> It's all been said to my face also.


Oh man. I know. I heard the same stuff...almost verbatim. It just got that much more vicious around girl friends. 

To this day in fact, friends (that were her's) have trickled back into my life asking me to forgive them for believing her. Nasty stuff she said. Nasty.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Oh man. I know. I heard the same stuff...almost verbatim. It just got that much more vicious around girl friends.
> 
> To this day in fact, friends (that were her's) have trickled back into my life asking me to forgive them for believing her. Nasty stuff she said. Nasty.


Even worse with a second marriage, 2nd set of kids, and different sets of friends.


----------



## LanieB

Mark72 said:


> It might be what I need to hear to kick me into shape and detach a little more.


Are you prepared to make a move if you actually hear something awful?


----------



## Mark72

LanieB said:


> Are you prepared to make a move if you actually hear something awful?


I'm trying to prepare to make a move.
I still don't want a divorce but I think a separation is necessary. Her parents want us out. They won't tell her. MIL tells me very passively aggressively (I'm not asking you to move but.... and she is just as frustrated with her there as me).
If I left and my help and money went with me, she would have to make a move one way or the other.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I'm trying to prepare to make a move.
> I still don't want a divorce but I think a separation is necessary. Her parents want us out. They won't tell her. MIL tells me very passively aggressively (I'm not asking you to move but.... and she is just as frustrated with her there as me).
> If I left and my help and money went with me, she would have to make a move one way or the other.


It's like I told you last week. Get out. It's not a good situation.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> It's like I told you last week. Get out. It's not a good situation.


It's not a "want to" situation... it's a "need to" situation...


----------



## mineforever

Mark72...one thing helped me was to...stop and be still and just breath. I know it sounds stupid but sometimes you have to just stop the rollercoaster and get off for a minute to clear your head and to be able to see and think clearly. Sometimes we get so consumed by whats going on we can't see past the storm to find the path we want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

I'd love to get off the rollercoaster. I just think that I am in a contest with her sister because things are usually ok as long as she is out of the picture. She and W are really close. SIL lost out in an adoption last minute last year. My heart goes out to her, but she's trying to take my family from me to have kids at her house. That's wrong, no matter how much she loves my kids. I'm quite sure that she is a big source of the rollercoaster.
On a side note, I couldn't find a viable hiding spot for the VOX recorder in W's car. I'll have to look over the weekend.


----------



## Mark72

I took back the rings. She seemed happy about it. MIL asked where I was going then got pissed that I said I just have someplace to go. I want out. I just dont have the balls to leave yet. Id go to my dads second house but it has been broken into twice by a family of drug addicts. One got caught and is in I prison but it happened again. Anyone know how much good security costs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

Whole family now. I am now a sexual pervert...
Funny the rocks that are thrown come from people with different points of view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> I took back the rings. She seemed happy about it. MIL asked where I was going then got pissed that I said I just have someplace to go. I want out. I just dont have the balls to leave yet. Id go to my dads second house but it has been broken into twice by a family of drug addicts. One got caught and is in I prison but it happened again. Anyone know how much good security costs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not as much as your self-respect.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Not as much as your self-respect.


Message from her today. I posted a picture on FB of a Bitstrip with the two of us in it. She didn't think it was funny. I told her I'm sorry it upset her. This was her response:

There are bigger things than a stupid Facebook post Mark. Im ready to call it quits. Im to the point where I can talk about things without getting mad. I hate to think this but im happiest when you are not around. You bring such a tension to my life that is not good. I dont want to do it anymore and I think its best if we can be adult about it. You say I have changed and I have. Im not the same person I once was. I have allowed your actions and attitude to change me into an unhappy person and I'm ready to move on and be happy again.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I'm ready to call it quits. Im to the point where I can talk about things without getting mad. I hate to think this but im happiest when you are not around. You bring such a tension to my life that is not good. I dont want to do it anymore and I think its best if we can be adult about it. You say I have changed and I have. Im not the same person I once was. I have allowed your actions and attitude to change me into an unhappy person and I'm ready to move on and be happy again.



Here it is. All you need to see, Mark. You are the cause of her unhappiness....... I am very pro marriage. But, my advice to you is to give her what she wants and let the truth of things come out over time. Do not be nice....do not be over giving. Be fair. Treat it as a business transaction because that is what it is.

I've seen this before. This is textbook wayward spouse. She is going to screw up down the road if she doesn't get help.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> Here it is. All you need to see, Mark. You are the cause of her unhappiness....... I am very pro marriage. But, my advice to you is to give her what she wants and let the truth of things come out over time. Do not be nice....do not be over giving. Be fair. Treat it as a business transaction because that is what it is.
> 
> I've seen this before. This is textbook wayward spouse. She is going to screw up down the road if she doesn't get help.


Yes, give defiant people what they want.

The hell with the b!tch.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Yes, give defiant people what they want.
> 
> The hell with the b!tch.


When she reveals who she really is, believe her.


----------



## Mark72

It really makes her family mad that through all my faults, our pastor says that she is in the wrong. They think I am throwing everyone under the bus and lying about myself. I've been more transparent with my pastor about my own shortcomings as I have in this anonymous thread... if not MORE so...


----------



## nickgtg

Whenever I would tell my ex that only she was responsible for her happiness she just could never understand that. I gave her what she wanted, I divorced her.

Maybe one day she'll figure it out.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> It really makes her family mad that through all my faults, our pastor says that she is in the wrong. They think I am throwing everyone under the bus and lying about myself. I've been more transparent with my pastor about my own shortcomings as I have in this anonymous thread... if not MORE so...


Press the ignore button, Mark.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> It really makes her family mad that through all my faults, our pastor says that she is in the wrong. They think I am throwing everyone under the bus and lying about myself. I've been more transparent with my pastor about my own shortcomings as I have in this anonymous thread... if not MORE so...


This isn't about her. Or her family.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Press the ignore button, Mark.


Well, I just had it out... There was a lot of assumption with her family and 'he said/she said' conversations going on and her dad is on my side. She and SIL are really the only ones that are against me now.
I find that hilarious. And sad as **** all at the same time


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well, I just had it out... There was a lot of assumption with her family and 'he said/she said' conversations going on and her dad is on my side. She and SIL are really the only ones that are against me now.
> I find that hilarious. And sad as **** all at the same time


Deadicated is on this.

Go dark.

The hell with them.

If you lived nearby, we'd be going to karaoke. You could be my Kenny Loggins.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Deadicated is on this.
> 
> Go dark.
> 
> The hell with them.
> 
> If you lived nearby, we'd be going to karaoke. You could be my Kenny Loggins.


I'll do Sinatra


----------



## Conrad

tom67 said:


> I'll do Sinatra


It goes until 2:30am.

I know you can be here by 12:30

Go for it.


----------



## Mark72

On a positive note, I am very sore from a weekend of jogging and lifting. Not a lot of weight but I feel the burn. I need to do this daily. I worked biceps and back Saturday, last night triceps and chest.
Tonight abs and shoulders.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> On a positive note, I am very sore from a weekend of jogging and lifting. Not a lot of weight but I feel the burn. I need to do this daily. I worked biceps and back Saturday, last night triceps and chest.
> Tonight abs and shoulders.


Does that mean you're not coming for karaoke?


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Does that mean you're not coming for karaoke?


Just for giggles, how far from Cincinnati do you live?


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Just for giggles, how far from Cincinnati do you live?


St. Louis

Next weekend, for sure.

I have an extra room.

And, I'm not kidding.

It's time for you to disappear for awhile.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> St. Louis
> 
> Next weekend, for sure.
> 
> I have an extra room.
> 
> And, I'm not kidding.
> 
> It's time for you to disappear for awhile.


Working Saturday. Sunday is daughter's birthday party. But... that's a 9 hour drive that would give me a good amount of thinking time on my own.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Working Saturday. Sunday is daughter's birthday party. But... that's a 9 hour drive that would give me a good amount of thinking time on my own.


Weekend after that actually works better.

For real.

I can likely score tix to Cardinals opening day.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Weekend after that actually works better.
> 
> For real.
> 
> I can likely score tix to Cardinals opening day.


You are talking to a die hard Reds fan. And the game is here in Cinci.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> You are talking to a die hard Reds fan. And the game is here in Cinci.


So what?

We'll watch it at Hooters.

You like wings?

Breasts?

Legs?


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> So what?
> 
> We'll watch it at Hooters.
> 
> You like wings?
> 
> Breasts?
> 
> Legs?


:nono:


----------



## Mark72

I had a good long prayer for peace this morning. I'm feeling it now. It's a good day, regardless of the circumstances.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> Well, I just had it out... There was a lot of assumption with her family and 'he said/she said' conversations going on and her dad is on my side. She and SIL are really the only ones that are against me now.
> 
> I find that hilarious. And sad as **** all at the same time



Mark, buddy, stop these shenanigans. Disconnect the emotional hose. It's for your own good to not engage in any of this even if they are "on your side". Ultimately for a healthy relationship your going to need to distance yourself from her family. 

Other advice is to go dark, and it's spot on. Be polite, but keep those boundaries. Tell BIL and whoever "thanks for your concern, but I have to take care of my self" and nothing more. Repeat it until they stop meddling. Get off Facebook. Disconnect. 

I think the St. Louis thing is a great idea.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> Mark, buddy, stop these shenanigans. Disconnect the emotional hose. It's for your own good to not engage in any of this even if they are "on your side". Ultimately for a healthy relationship your going to need to distance yourself from her family.
> 
> Other advice is to go dark, and it's spot on. Be polite, but keep those boundaries. Tell BIL and whoever "thanks for your concern, but I have to take care of my self" and nothing more. Repeat it until they stop meddling. Get off Facebook. Disconnect.
> 
> I think the St. Louis thing is a great idea.


I don't think I'm up for that step yet. Not completely dark.


----------



## Mark72

I don't wanna post today that much. I was in a pretty good mood the last 2 days, not so much today. Nothing really new, just same old same old.


----------



## U.E. McGill

If you don't spend the time creating the life you want, you'll spend a lot of time dealing with a life you don't. 

Don't be a rider in your life Mark. I'm not telling you to go cold to spite your old lady, I'm telling you this to set you free. Once you realize you have the power you'll move past this depression.


----------



## Mark72

I took a look at the cell phone bill.
Interesting. She has been talking to some dude, sending texts since the beginning of this month. 
I also noticed last night when I picked up her phone to call my own that she has locked the screen.
The type of work that I do.. I know how to find people. And gather information. I've already found this joker. I need to gather some more evidence. I bought the VOX recorder but never put it in her car because I couldnt find a convenient spot. I am going to find a spot now.
I'm not big on surveillance, any tips? My ability is all on the computer and records. I know where to dig. I've never spied.


----------



## tom67

Mark72 said:


> I took a look at the cell phone bill.
> Interesting. She has been talking to some dude, sending texts since the beginning of this month.
> I also noticed last night when I picked up her phone to call my own that she has locked the screen.
> The type of work that I do.. I know how to find people. And gather information. I've already found this joker. I need to gather some more evidence. I bought the VOX recorder but never put it in her car because I couldnt find a convenient spot. I am going to find a spot now.
> I'm not big on surveillance, any tips? My ability is all on the computer and records. I know where to dig. I've never spied.


Wow sorry.
She had to demonize you to justify her behavior.
Classic cheater script. It's the old rationalization hamster.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I took a look at the cell phone bill.
> Interesting. She has been talking to some dude, sending texts since the beginning of this month.
> I also noticed last night when I picked up her phone to call my own that she has locked the screen.
> The type of work that I do.. I know how to find people. And gather information. I've already found this joker. I need to gather some more evidence. I bought the VOX recorder but never put it in her car because I couldnt find a convenient spot. I am going to find a spot now.
> I'm not big on surveillance, any tips? My ability is all on the computer and records. I know where to dig. I've never spied.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


>


Yeah.
The number appeared at the beginning of this month. 
The guy is a Rumpke driver.
If this IS something, not sure if it is or not, but if it IS, I will HAVE to add him to my facebook friends and ask him to take my trash...
All this right before I confront her.


----------



## Mark72

I don't even know what I'm dealing with and I'm pissssed


----------



## tom67

Mark72 said:


> I don't even know what I'm dealing with and I'm pissssed


You will soon you know the routine, more info is om married or have a gf you have to let them know asap and blow this out of the water.
Then you sit back and see how your w reacts.


----------



## Mark72

tom67 said:


> You will soon you know the routine, more info is om married or have a gf you have to let them know asap and blow this out of the water.
> Then you sit back and see how your w reacts.


He has a pretty hot fiancee. They live with 2 people my age. They have 3 kids.
I dont know. I gotta say I have some doubts. My wife is... shall we say... a big girl. Nothing I would take a second look at today if I was a single man. His fiancee is definitely a head-turner. 
I know that if they are having issues he may be lookin for something else but... I dunno....


----------



## tom67

Mark72 said:


> He has a pretty hot fiancee. They live with 2 people my age. They have 3 kids.
> I dont know. I gotta say I have some doubts. My wife is... shall we say... a big girl. Nothing I would take a second look at today if I was a single man. His fiancee is definitely a head-turner.
> I know that if they are having issues he may be lookin for something else but... I dunno....


You have to let her know.
Meet her at a coffee shop or something like that.
Maybe she'll need some consoling. just kidding, maybe.
Bottom line you need another set of eyes on this.


----------



## Mark72

tom67 said:


> You have to let her know.
> Meet her at a coffee shop or something like that.
> Maybe she'll need some consoling. just kidding, maybe.
> Bottom line you need another set of eyes on this.


I gotta have something to accuse before I jump out... if there is something, I'll find it. If not, then I wont.
If I go out guns blazing with no evidence, I'll look like a fool and I'll have no leverage and it will be tougher to get any evidence.


----------



## tom67

Mark72 said:


> I gotta have something to accuse before I jump out... if there is something, I'll find it. If not, then I wont.
> If I go out guns blazing with no evidence, I'll look like a fool and I'll have no leverage and it will be tougher to get any evidence.


The amount of texts is inappropiate enough isn't it?
Just tell her very matter of fact that at this stage it is somewhat concerning given her present attitude.
Affairs start by letting this crap go on too long.
Right now you have little to lose and a lot to gain.


----------



## Mark72

tom67 said:


> The amount of texts is inappropiate enough isn't it?
> Just tell her very matter of fact that at this stage it is somewhat concerning given her present attitude.
> Affairs start by letting this crap go on too long.
> Right now you have little to lose and a lot to gain.


I don't have a tape recording of her talking to him.
That would be the nail. If it is inappropriate, or an EA in the making, or whatever, I don't want to go into accusation mode empty handed. 

I am pretty good at deflecting and blame shifting. I've got nothin on her. She is a pro.

More digging... he also has his own trash hauling company on the side. Her father is in construction, and he has W sometimes handle phone business. It's never at odd hours, but always when she is off work. 

Definitely more digging. I'll ask to see her phone tonight.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> He has a pretty hot fiancee. They live with 2 people my age. They have 3 kids.
> I dont know. I gotta say I have some doubts. My wife is... shall we say... a big girl. Nothing I would take a second look at today if I was a single man. His fiancee is definitely a head-turner.
> I know that if they are having issues he may be lookin for something else but... I dunno....


My ex is a head turner too............fricking psycho. But, a head turner nonetheless. 

Sounds like a whole lot of drama. So glad I'm done with all this bs in my world.


----------



## Mark72

It's just hard for me to grasp that this could be the end. I don't want to believe it. I don't want things to stay as they are, but I don't want to close out this chapter and end the book. I want to start a new chapter. I'm struggling to come to grips with the possibility that it's over and don't want to cross that bridge til there is no other place to go.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark, the end was a long time ago. Fact is the book is being written with or with out you. When are you going to start writing the story you want? It's there. Just take it.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> Mark, the end was a long time ago. Fact is the book is being written with or with out you. When are you going to start writing the story you want? It's there. Just take it.


Fear/anxiety, and separation from my kids.
The anxiety is getting better. I've made some strides. But I'm not there yet.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Fear/anxiety, and separation from my kids.
> The anxiety is getting better. I've made some strides. But I'm not there yet.


One thing I have learned through my marriage crisis was to never operate out of fear. Control what you can control and let the results land where they do.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> One thing I have learned through my marriage crisis was to never operate out of fear. Control what you can control and let the results land where they do.


It's a process... I wish I could just flip that switch and turn it off. I'm learning to deal with it but I ain't there yet


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> It's a process... I wish I could just flip that switch and turn it off. I'm learning to deal with it but I ain't there yet


It's been almost two years since this really began......time to get it together.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> It's been almost two years since this really began......time to get it together.


It's really been longer than that. I've had the anxiety issues my whole life and never really wanted to deal with them until now. I was a bully magnet when I was younger because of it.


----------



## Mark72

Hope I have some more definite news come Monday. Tomorrow is my daughter's birthday party. I'm forseeing some sort of change after that


----------



## Mark72

Saturday I went home and nutted up. She asked me to get the baby. I told her I will when I got something to eat. She snapped that I am being rude. "I'm sorry you feel that way".
She screamed that I should just stay home instead of going out with them today. She kept b****ing and I kept eating. Her dad came in and said hello and I said hi back. She said that I was rude to her but it's amazing how I just change to being normal to her dad. "I don't like where this conversation is going" - then I went upstairs. She came running up and told me after she leaves to pack my stuff and go. 
"ok"
I then went downstairs and asked her parents for an eviction notice. THey started freaking out and asking me why. I told them since I have been asked to leave, I'd need a notice. They called her down and said that they dont want me to leave and they want us all to sit down after the birthday party and talk about it before anyone makes any rash decisions...
She put my pillows on the stairs and locked the door. I didnt tell her to open up, I just went to the basement. She text me and asked me to come up because it was too cold down there. I waited about 2 hours then went upstairs because I was f-ing cold...
She was sweet during the party and offered to do some things for me. 

I also planted the VOX recorder.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Saturday I went home and nutted up. She asked me to get the baby. I told her I will when I got something to eat. She snapped that I am being rude. "I'm sorry you feel that way".
> She screamed that I should just stay home instead of going out with them today. She kept b****ing and I kept eating. Her dad came in and said hello and I said hi back. She said that I was rude to her but it's amazing how I just change to being normal to her dad. "I don't like where this conversation is going" - then I went upstairs. She came running up and told me after she leaves to pack my stuff and go.
> "ok"
> I then went downstairs and asked her parents for an eviction notice. THey started freaking out and asking me why. I told them since I have been asked to leave, I'd need a notice. They called her down and said that they dont want me to leave and they want us all to sit down after the birthday party and talk about it before anyone makes any rash decisions...
> She put my pillows on the stairs and locked the door. I didnt tell her to open up, I just went to the basement. She text me and asked me to come up because it was too cold down there. I waited about 2 hours then went upstairs because I was f-ing cold...
> She was sweet during the party and offered to do some things for me.
> 
> I also planted the VOX recorder.


Forward....

Excellent.

Maintain your strength.


----------



## Conrad

Dedicated2Her said:


> It's been almost two years since this really began......time to get it together.


I remember another process

Two of them, to be exact.


----------



## Mark72

Well, I did break down a little last night, but it wasn't devastating or anything


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Conrad said:


> I remember another process
> 
> Two of them, to be exact.


I actually remember more....... lol

Regardless, Mark what you are learning to do is act into the emotion. When you start to speak this way in regards to your own personal boundries, eventually, you act into the emotion of not allowing a vulnerable, confused, and unsettled woman affect you.

See, a large part of society has this thought process of reacting to how they feel. So, what they are doing is being a slave to their emotions. Your wife is caught smack in the middle of this. My ex, to this day, is a whirlwind of psycho. Why? Because she follows her feelings to the extreme. Instead of keeping a level head and acting in the way that is right which in turn leads your emotions to eventually follow that, they give in and blow things up.

AND, that is a process. It could be short, could be long. Depends on how dedicated you are to being different.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well, I did break down a little last night, but it wasn't devastating or anything


The difference between those who succeed and those who fail is that those who succeed pick themselves up ONE MORE TIME.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> He has a pretty hot fiancee. They live with 2 people my age. They have 3 kids.
> I dont know. I gotta say I have some doubts. My wife is... shall we say... a big girl. Nothing I would take a second look at today if I was a single man. His fiancee is definitely a head-turner.
> I know that if they are having issues he may be lookin for something else but... I dunno....


This site itself, let alone life, is rampant with hotties who were cheated on and the OW is a burlap bag. Don't let that influence you. Turn the lights off and do some kinky sh!t and biology still works.


----------



## Mark72

She is still texting this joker.
Her parents want us all to have a talk tomorrow night, so they can try to get us in the right direction. I'm holding out until then to ask about it. I want to see her squirm if there is something to hide. I also want to listen to the VOX recorder tonight.


----------



## Mark72

Holt S**T my stomach is in knots. Worse than when we split up and I was having anxiety. I don't know what to expect with this. I'm not dreading a separation right now. I'm just not prepared to what my reaction will be if I find out she's having an affair. 
Checked his FB and his status changed from ENGAGED to blank. Her status is blank. Can't tell if they are together or not now. If this is something, I will track her down and have a chat with her.


----------



## doubletrouble

Might do a little sleuthing and bring that up with the inlaws. Kinda hard to do anything with a relationship when there's only one person in it.


----------



## Mark72

She sent me a text this morning and said she wants to go to dinner with friends. I asked who they were, and one of them was the name of the fiancee. Perhaps the cell phone is in his name but she has it? I have to do more digging.


----------



## Mark72

Turns out the phone belongs to the girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> She sent me a text this morning and said she wants to go to dinner with friends. I asked who they were,


Why?

She is the least reliable source of information.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Why?
> 
> She is the least reliable source of information.


The cell phone is the girl's. That is for certain.


----------



## Mark72

Well... I looked for the recorder yesterday. I pretty much figured there was nothing on it. But it's gone. Apparently she found it and hasn't said anything. However, yesterday she was a nuclear bomb. So, I'm pretty sure she found it and either planted it someplace or just waiting to bring it up... either way, that is a failed plan and took me down a few notches. I don't know how she found it... it was in a reall good spot and secure.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Well... I looked for the recorder yesterday. I pretty much figured there was nothing on it. But it's gone. Apparently she found it and hasn't said anything. However, yesterday she was a nuclear bomb. So, I'm pretty sure she found it and either planted it someplace or just waiting to bring it up... either way, that is a failed plan and took me down a few notches. I don't know how she found it... it was in a reall good spot and secure.


Don't sweat it.

When she brings it up, you remain cool, firm, and dispassionate:

"I was investigating all the mixed messages I'm getting"

And, you stop talking.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Don't sweat it.
> 
> When she brings it up, you remain cool, firm, and dispassionate:
> 
> "I was investigating all the mixed messages I'm getting"
> 
> And, you stop talking.


The more dispassionate I try to be, the more passionate I feel... Separating my actions from my emotions is probably tougher than quitting nicotine.


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> The more dispassionate I try to be, the more passionate I feel... Separating my actions from my emotions is probably tougher than quitting nicotine.


I didn't tell you this would be easy.

But, the precepts are quite simple.

It takes discipline and restraint.

She will see your restraint as strength.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> Well... I looked for the recorder yesterday. I pretty much figured there was nothing on it. But it's gone. Apparently she found it and hasn't said anything. However, yesterday she was a nuclear bomb. So, I'm pretty sure she found it and either planted it someplace or just waiting to bring it up... either way, that is a failed plan and took me down a few notches. I don't know how she found it... it was in a reall good spot and secure.


Maybe she's reading this thread?


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Maybe she's reading this thread?


Ive only logged in from work or my cell with INCOGNITO.
I doubt she is reading this.


----------



## doubletrouble

Hmmm, maybe she saw a credit card purchase? I'm grasping at straws here, I know. How the hell could she have known? Freaky. Maybe she dropped her lipstick in the car (it was in the car, right) and had to look for it, found the VAR. Or the VAR fell out of its mount onto the floor.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Hmmm, maybe she saw a credit card purchase? I'm grasping at straws here, I know. How the hell could she have known? Freaky. Maybe she dropped her lipstick in the car (it was in the car, right) and had to look for it, found the VAR. Or the VAR fell out of its mount onto the floor.


I dont know.


----------



## Conrad

You sound scared.


----------



## Mark72

Anxiety sucks.
Bad.


----------



## Mark72

My biggest downfalls in my marriage have come when I have focused on what she has done wrong and acted on that. Whether I say to myself that I need revenge, or I am entitled to something because she did wrong... That's when I have taken the biggest nose dives. I need to concentrate on doing whatever the next right thing is. Not to get a response from her, because her response is her responsibility. I can't control what she does, but I can control what I do. I know this, but it's hard to practice. Need to keep saying it over until it clicks


----------



## doubletrouble

Practice makes perfect, Mark.


----------



## Mark72

Went to IC this morning. She made a point to me that seems so simple but it's always escaped me. The analogy is that we are facing each other. When she takes a step back, I tend to take a step forward. This causes her to take another step back. When she steps back, I need to also step back. If she goes back to the X in the middle, then I go back. It's a James Dobson reference. That, and what I said in my last post, are 2 of my 3 missions for life.


----------



## doubletrouble

Hmm, with that analogy, I wonder what she'd do if you turned around and walked away?

Just a theoretical.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Hmm, with that analogy, I wonder what she'd do if you turned around and walked away?
> 
> Just a theoretical.


I don't believe that's the right thing to do.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> I don't believe that's the right thing to do.



This marriage will never work, reconciliation or otherwise until you realize you don't need her and can walk away if you wanted to.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> This marriage will never work, reconciliation or otherwise until you realize you don't need her and can walk away if you wanted to.


It's not so much about needing her as much as it is my belief of the sanctity of marriage. I've made some monumental mistakes along the way but I'm not walking out. I have no biblical grounds. Neither does she. But if she walks out, that's her problem.


----------



## Mark72

The challenge is on.
I'm in, though. 
Cool, firm, dispassionate in my demeanor.
Always do the next right thing. 
Don't act on my emotions, nor in response to any wrong thing she does.

This goes against my grain in so many ways but it's the key to being the man I am meant to be and not what I was.

On a side note, extra challenges are in the works. The ladies at work are noticing the pounds drop and the attitude change. 11 years ago I'd have a completely full schedule, no time for anything but dates. She is missing out on something. 
I'm starting to believe that she's got a winner but letting him go...


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> I don't believe that's the right thing to do.


Like I said, just a theoretical. 

I have biblical grounds to walk away yet I don't. So I get it.


----------



## U.E. McGill

If your wife was an alcoholic and told you "I will never give up the bottle" would you stay? If she did heroine? 

There's comes a point where even the sanctity of marriage has it's limits. Even the Catholic Church allows for annulment. 

She's just as checked out of this marriage as if she was an addict.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> If your wife was an alcoholic and told you "I will never give up the bottle" would you stay? If she did heroine?
> 
> There's comes a point where even the sanctity of marriage has it's limits. Even the Catholic Church allows for annulment.
> 
> She's just as checked out of this marriage as if she was an addict.


I understand what you are saying. From what I have read in the bible, divorce is only _tolerated _by God if there is adultry. He still doesn't _like _it.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> I understand what you are saying. From what I have read in the bible, divorce is only _tolerated _by God if there is adultry. He still doesn't _like _it.


It's given as the only reason. I read that as good enough. 

If it's in your heart to forgive, as Jesus calls us to do, then make the best of it. I'm still trying to forgive, and have that Biblical reason to leave. Forgiveness, true forgiveness, is really hard to do. If I could also forget, it would be much simpler.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> It's given as the only reason. I read that as good enough.
> 
> If it's in your heart to forgive, as Jesus calls us to do, then make the best of it. I'm still trying to forgive, and have that Biblical reason to leave. Forgiveness, true forgiveness, is really hard to do. If I could also forget, it would be much simpler.


Exactly...
It is tough to forget what we do and concentrate on the hurt the other person is piling on. I betrayed her trust by using porn and webcam girl chats. I don't know exactly how that made her feel but she is still angry about iit today.


----------



## doubletrouble

It's odd, isn't it, what we remember or tolerate from time to time. 

For example, W and I would watch porn together before DDay, now we don't even like to see cleavage on TV.


----------



## Mark72

Last night was bad.
Apparently, my stepmother took it upon herself to have a chat with my MIL...
MIL didn't take it well. She had jumped to many conclusions. The communication came in an email, and SM had used information that my father had given her so she also formed some of her own conclusions.
SM meant well but it got really ugly really fast. I made the call to SM and put her on speaker and let the two women hash it out. MIL was very apologetic for yelling at me.
Wife came out and the claws and fangs came out like never before... SHe said I need to leave now and I'm not welcome back in that house anymore except to see the kids. I said ok.
MIL begged her to reconsider, but she said no she wants nothing to do with me anymore. 
I have really no place to go. Cant afford a hotel and no key to get into my dad's empty house.
After I had played with the kids and put them in bed (my choice) I packed up and went downstairs. FIL said that he told W that it's his house and I don't need to go anywhere. Kinda glad I didn't have to stay in the car or a motel.


----------



## doubletrouble

Arrrrgh.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Arrrrgh.


Yeah.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Last night was bad.
> Apparently, my stepmother took it upon herself to have a chat with my MIL...
> MIL didn't take it well. She had jumped to many conclusions. The communication came in an email, and SM had used information that my father had given her so she also formed some of her own conclusions.
> SM meant well but it got really ugly really fast. I made the call to SM and put her on speaker and let the two women hash it out. MIL was very apologetic for yelling at me.
> Wife came out and the claws and fangs came out like never before... SHe said I need to leave now and I'm not welcome back in that house anymore except to see the kids. I said ok.
> MIL begged her to reconsider, but she said no she wants nothing to do with me anymore.
> I have really no place to go. Cant afford a hotel and no key to get into my dad's empty house.
> After I had played with the kids and put them in bed (my choice) I packed up and went downstairs. FIL said that he told W that it's his house and I don't need to go anywhere. Kinda glad I didn't have to stay in the car or a motel.


You can't stay in your dad's empty house? Break in as long as he is ok with it. You need to get out of that powder keg.

Your wife is a manipulator. I've said this before. She needs to hit rock bottom. She needs a heart change. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that can happen with you around.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> You can't stay in your dad's empty house? Break in as long as he is ok with it. You need to get out of that powder keg.
> 
> Your wife is a manipulator. I've said this before. She needs to hit rock bottom. She needs a heart change. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that can happen with you around.


I don't see hitting rock bottom. SHe is doing well at work and gets a ton of recognition. We are both full time students as well, but she gets a ton of praise for doing school work too. She's been losing weight. 
I'm afraid she's on a track to single life again. She's been hanging out with that girl (that I thought was a man, but I was wrong). She is getting divorced from the man that I thought she was talking to. He's abusive and all that. 
So... I know i need changes - I need to hang out with more friends of my own, go fishing, golfing, etc. I admit I still give her too much of my happiness fullfillment, and last night I had anxieties - but it wasn't as bad as before. I was more upset at being away from the kids, but had a bit of a relief that I wasn't going to hear the hateful remarks from her.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I don't see hitting rock bottom. SHe is doing well at work and gets a ton of recognition. We are both full time students as well, but she gets a ton of praise for doing school work too. She's been losing weight.
> *I'm afraid she's on a track to single life again.* She's been hanging out with that girl (that I thought was a man, but I was wrong). She is getting divorced from the man that I thought she was talking to. He's abusive and all that.
> So... I know i need changes - I need to hang out with more friends of my own, go fishing, golfing, etc. I admit I still give her too much of my happiness fullfillment, and last night I had anxieties - but it wasn't as bad as before. I was more upset at being away from the kids, but had a bit of a relief that I wasn't going to hear the hateful remarks from her.


AND she knows that..........

Ummmm. A woman with 3 children getting divorced and living with her parents........

She may not hit rock bottom.....for a while. The truth always comes out over time. ALWAYS. It may be 6 months, 2 years, or 10 years. She will have to deal with her resentment and lack of a forgiving heart. In addition, she will have to come face to face with her manipulation of others to get what she wants. At some point, she will experience regret. More than likely, though, it will be too late.

BUT, that is not what you need to be concerned with. What you need to be concerned with is becoming the man you were created to be.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> AND she knows that..........
> 
> Ummmm. A woman with 3 children getting divorced and living with her parents........
> 
> She may not hit rock bottom.....for a while. The truth always comes out over time. ALWAYS. It may be 6 months, 2 years, or 10 years. She will have to deal with her resentment and lack of a forgiving heart. In addition, she will have to come face to face with her manipulation of others to get what she wants. At some point, she will experience regret. More than likely, though, it will be too late.
> 
> BUT, that is not what you need to be concerned with. What you need to be concerned with is becoming the man you were created to be.


I know overall what I need to do, but there are times that I don't know what the right move is at that moment. Last night, for example - When she was stabbing me with the past, I told her that I have 5 years of victory over porn- Although I had some slips a few months ago.
2 years ago, she bought the book 50 shades of gray. And she went to go see the Chippendales, and she went to go see Magic Mike. She told me how the book and the movie really turned her on. So, my porn addict brain kicked in. She asked me what I was thinking, and I told her I was thinking we could watch something together.
Boom... I'm evil... 

She brought that up in front of her mom that I had asked her. I said, "Yeah, I did. And it wasn't right. And I am not going to mention specifics in front of your mother, (of course she didnt tell her mom about the movie, book, or male strippers) and I could have stopped all of this back then, but don't you think there were some mitigating circumstances that led to me asking you to watch porn?"
She said yes and shut up and went into the house.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I know overall what I need to do, but there are times that I don't know what the right move is at that moment. Last night, for example - When she was stabbing me with the past, I told her that I have 5 years of victory over porn- Although I had some slips a few months ago.
> 2 years ago, she bought the book 50 shades of gray. And she went to go see the Chippendales, and she went to go see Magic Mike. She told me how the book and the movie really turned her on. So, my porn addict brain kicked in. She asked me what I was thinking, and I told her I was thinking we could watch something together.
> Boom... I'm evil...
> 
> She brought that up in front of her mom that I had asked her. I said, "Yeah, I did. And it wasn't right. And I am not going to mention specifics in front of your mother, (of course she didnt tell her mom about the movie, book, or male strippers) and I could have stopped all of this back then, but don't you think there were some mitigating circumstances that led to me asking you to watch porn?"
> She said yes and shut up and went into the house.


"When she was stabbing me with the past,"

Your response should be, "wife, I do not hold things against others that happened years ago, therefore, I am not ok with someone holding things against me that happened years ago."

And walk away. Period. Everything you do from this point on should be "treat others how you want to be treated." End of story.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> "When she was stabbing me with the past,"
> 
> Your response should be, "wife, I do not hold things against others that happened years ago, therefore, I am not ok with someone holding things against me that happened years ago."
> 
> And walk away. Period. Everything you do from this point on should be "treat others how you want to be treated." End of story.


I bring stuff up from the past too... usually it is stuff that has never stopped happening, but I still go back in history too. But I am getting better.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I bring stuff up from the past too... usually it is stuff that has never stopped happening, but I still go back in history too. But I am getting better.


See, but it's not your job to bring stuff up. It's your job to create a new beginning. Whether she wants to join you for that, it's her call. One day, you will have a new relationship. That new relationship maybe with your current wife, or it may not. BUT, you have to start, make a stand on doing things with a forward focus from now on. AND that means not doing a "feminine" thing like bringing up past faults. You control you, and pointing out someone else's shortcomings does nothing but bring all of you down. Set the tone.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> See, but it's not your job to bring stuff up. It's your job to create a new beginning. Whether she wants to join you for that, it's her call. One day, you will have a new relationship. That new relationship maybe with your current wife, or it may not. BUT, you have to start, make a stand on doing things with a forward focus from now on. AND that means not doing a "feminine" thing like bringing up past faults. You control you, and pointing out someone else's shortcomings does nothing but bring all of you down. Set the tone.


Adding to my list of things to think say do and remember


----------



## U.E. McGill

Nice guys explain and defend. Integrated males don't. 

Stop the DEER. DO NOT: DEFEND EXCUSE EXPLAIN REASON. 

Say your sorry (if you are) and then STFU. it's simple. Every time you launch into a long drawn out explanation or defense of your past it fuels the fire about her feelings on the matter. It in fact justifies her thinking your wrong. 

Me, if I'm wrong, I say "sorry won't happen again". If my wife keeps pushing, I just FOG. "Yep. Mmm hmmm. I can see". If she won't let it go, I walk away. She's learned to listen to the first "sorry". 

I sure as hell don't say sorry if I'm not.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> Nice guys explain and defend. Integrated males don't.
> 
> Stop the DEER. DO NOT: DEFEND EXCUSE EXPLAIN REASON.
> 
> Say your sorry (if you are) and then STFU. it's simple. Every time you launch into a long drawn out explanation or defense of your past it fuels the fire about her feelings on the matter. It in fact justifies her thinking your wrong.
> 
> Me, if I'm wrong, I say "sorry won't happen again". If my wife keeps pushing, I just FOG. "Yep. Mmm hmmm. I can see". If she won't let it go, I walk away. She's learned to listen to the first "sorry".
> 
> I sure as hell don't say sorry if I'm not.


Really, it is getting better. I am being less of a DEER. Not there yet but I feel better.
I am also detatching a bit more, but getting closer to the kids.
That doesn't make it any easier to think about leaving. I'm still concentrating on doing the right thing, and not acting in response to anything she does or says. It's making me feel stronger. I can walk away when she goes on a rant. I can stay in stride and joke around when she has the wall up. I can keep from pouncing on her when the walls come down. Although Saturday we had both gone too long without sex and had a quickie. She of course told me how wrong she felt about it the next day, yadda yadda.. and that's how I treated it...
Anyway, I feel stronger and weaker at the same time...


----------



## Conrad

U.E. McGill said:


> Nice guys explain and defend. Integrated males don't.
> 
> Stop the DEER. DO NOT: DEFEND EXCUSE EXPLAIN REASON.
> 
> Say your sorry (if you are) and then STFU. it's simple. Every time you launch into a long drawn out explanation or defense of your past it fuels the fire about her feelings on the matter. It in fact justifies her thinking your wrong.
> 
> Me, if I'm wrong, I say "sorry won't happen again". If my wife keeps pushing, I just FOG. "Yep. Mmm hmmm. I can see". If she won't let it go, I walk away. She's learned to listen to the first "sorry".
> 
> I sure as hell don't say sorry if I'm not.


Real example from the other night:

She felt wronged and I listened about it for a bit. Finally, I figured an apology wouldn't cause resentment, so why not?

"Ok babe, I'm sorry and I won't do that anymore"

"That's not good enough"

"If that's not good enough, this evening is over"

"You won't let go of the past"

"No, I have let it go, what I won't do is re-live it"


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> Real example from the other night:
> 
> She felt wronged and I listened about it for a bit. Finally, I figured an apology wouldn't cause resentment, so why not?
> 
> "Ok babe, I'm sorry and I won't do that anymore"
> 
> "That's not good enough"
> 
> "If that's not good enough, this evening is over"
> 
> "You won't let go of the past"
> 
> "No, I have let it go, what I won't do is re-live it"


Good choice. W doesn't understand that love, forgiveness, bitterness... these are all choices. We can't necessarily choose our feelings at the time, but we can choose our response and how we think. It's taken me a long time to realize that I have choices.


----------



## Mark72

Something will change. Someday


----------



## Conrad

Mark72 said:


> Something will change. Someday


You will.


----------



## Mark72

Conrad said:


> You will.


I am.
I'm just getting impatient with myself. I want to be able to turn off this longing for affection like a light switch. I'm not displaying my desires nearly as much but they are still there.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> Good choice. W doesn't understand that love, forgiveness, bitterness... these are all choices. We can't necessarily choose our feelings at the time, but we can choose our response and how we think. It's taken me a long time to realize that I have choices.


Controlling our feelings is impossible, I think. People say you can, but there's at least the first millisecond twinge of feelings when something happens. 

But as you said, it's what you DO about those feelings that is a choice. Life is all about choices. I choose to have milk in my coffee today. I choose to drive my pickup instead of my car. I choose to reconcile with my formerly wayward wife instead of leaving her forever. I choose to calmly smoke a cigarette instead of driving to OM's house and burning it to the ground. 

I give extreme examples in some cases but the are ALL choices. Even to whether you blow your nose in a kleenex or grab some toilet paper. 

Once you recognize that, it gives you freedom. You pause for a few moments, *consider your choices instead of reacting to patterns*. That's freedom.


----------



## tracyishere

You are very wise DT.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Controlling our feelings is impossible, I think. People say you can, but there's at least the first millisecond twinge of feelings when something happens.
> 
> But as you said, it's what you DO about those feelings that is a choice. Life is all about choices. I choose to have milk in my coffee today. I choose to drive my pickup instead of my car. I choose to reconcile with my formerly wayward wife instead of leaving her forever. I choose to calmly smoke a cigarette instead of driving to OM's house and burning it to the ground.
> 
> I give extreme examples in some cases but the are ALL choices. Even to whether you blow your nose in a kleenex or grab some toilet paper.
> 
> Once you recognize that, it gives you freedom. You pause for a few moments, *consider your choices instead of reacting to patterns*. That's freedom.


That's what I'm learning. I am improving. Still a way to go but I'm getting there! Now I just need to learn how to better deal with these pesky insecure feelings I get that depress me... but I am getting better there too. Learning to tell myself the truth instead of listening to my own insecurities or fears is going to take a lot of work and patience with myself, but I'm worth it.


----------



## doubletrouble

Damn right you're worth it. Don't let anything or anyone ever tell you otherwise.


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## Mark72

I have a mixed feeling of numbness and pessimism today. Time to turn my thinking around...


----------



## tracyishere

Mark, instead of being optimistic/pessimistic about your relationship why don't you forget that and just focus on you. 

You have made so many wonderful changes and have become a man to be proud of. You should be optimistic that with whatever happens you will be able to get through it and survive with dignity. 

You cannot fail in this.


----------



## doubletrouble

Hey it's Friday....  *hopeful look*


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## Mark72

tracyishere said:


> Mark, instead of being optimistic/pessimistic about your relationship why don't you forget that and just focus on you.
> 
> You have made so many wonderful changes and have become a man to be proud of. You should be optimistic that with whatever happens you will be able to get through it and survive with dignity.
> 
> You cannot fail in this.


You are right... I have a different outlook on myself. I see have more self esteem. I know without a doubt that I could easily find someone else that would love me unconditionally, treat me way better than she treats me now, that is very attractive, that is compatible with me. I know I deserve that. I know that I am doing the right things for me now. 

The one thing that has not changed is my view on divorce. I know that there is a point that it's all over. I'm just not so sure that point has come yet.

I really appreciate the talks and the humor. I know I can come in here and I have friends. Thank you!


----------



## tracyishere

I like to believe that God does not wish for his children to suffer. He does not want you to be unhappy. I truly hope you can find happiness in your marriage but if you cannot I don't think a life sentence of unhappiness is God's wish for you.


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## doubletrouble

Yeah you're not Job....


----------



## tracyishere

doubletrouble said:


> Yeah you're not Job....



?


----------



## doubletrouble

You remember the Biblical story of Job, who suffered....


----------



## tracyishere

doubletrouble said:


> You remember the Biblical story of Job, who suffered....



Yes! I think Mark told me that story.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

doubletrouble said:


> You remember the Biblical story of Job, who suffered....


Yeah....Satan took everything from him but what..............HIS NAGGING WIFE!!!!


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> The one thing that has not changed is my view on divorce. I know that there is a point that it's all over. I'm just not so sure that point has come yet.


Mark, I completely agree with you. My view on divorce is absolutely that it isn't an option. However, when you have a defiant person who insist on something, you let them go as Christ allows us to wander from Him. Your place is a place of peace so that you can have better vision, love, hope, and communion with Him. I am so thankful for my 2 years of in house separation as it taught me to have peace/happiness and trust in God no matter what the circumstances. Everything has a purpose. When you wake up each morning, be thankful for what you are going through because all of these things are designed to bring about a shining future.


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## Mark72

I believe that God's main desire is not for His children to be happy, but for His children to be holy. Tracy has said several times that happiness is a choice. I agree completely. Happiness is our outward expression of feelings we get due to certain circumstances. 
I am also looking at the big picture. If I am His child, and I have accepted His son Jesus Christ as my savior, then I will leave this world one day and be in heaven. No sadness, no pain. While I'm here I know I won't always be happy. But I can choose to be holy. That will bring me peace. 
Job lost it all and never cursed God. He complained and whined but he never turned away from God. And all he had was what was on this earth - he didn't have the promise of Jesus for eternal life, yet he remained faithful. 
Yeah, I'm trying to be like that.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I believe that God's main desire is not for His children to be happy, but for His children to be holy. Tracy has said several times that happiness is a choice. I agree completely. *Happiness is our outward expression of feelings we get due to certain circumstances. *
> I am also looking at the big picture. If I am His child, and I have accepted His son Jesus Christ as my savior, then I will leave this world one day and be in heaven. No sadness, no pain. While I'm here I know I won't always be happy. But I can choose to be holy. That will bring me peace.
> Job lost it all and never cursed God. He complained and whined but he never turned away from God. And all he had was what was on this earth - he didn't have the promise of Jesus for eternal life, yet he remained faithful.
> Yeah, I'm trying to be like that.



Absolutely, positively, FALSE. Happiness is something completely separate from circumstances. It comes from peace. I had never been "happier" in my adult life when I was still living at home with my ex and that was severely bad circumstances. Of course, that changed into now I'm even happier! But, it has to do with me, not what is going on around me!

I see myself in posts like this. Been there. I've said this exact thing "I can choose to be holy." Really, Can you? Your flesh is involved in everything you do. Whether you see it or not, your actions are pushed by your own personal desires......"flesh"....so how can you choose to be holy? 

Stop using the story of Job for strength and find peace like Paul who was locked in prison and rejoiced! This is an awesome time! You are about to embark, if you allow it, on an amazing journey to become who God created you to be. If you have peace.....then you are happy!


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## Mark72

Well I am staying at a motel. She booted me. She's staying with her parents. Im not going to lie.... I'm not doing really well right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LanieB

Oh, I'm so sorry, Mark. Is there any other place you could go besides a hotel?


----------



## Mark72

LanieB said:


> Oh, I'm so sorry, Mark. Is there any other place you could go besides a hotel?


I think I will go stay with a family member for a while until I know which way this is headed. Any praying folks, I would certainly appreciate some prayer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LanieB

Mark72 said:


> I think I will go stay with a family member for a while until I know which way this is headed. Any praying folks, I would certainly appreciate some prayer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm glad you have family to stay with, so you won't be alone. Do you have friends or relatives you can talk to about everything? My friends (both internet and IRL) have been such a blessing to me.


----------



## tracyishere

Prayers for you. ❤


----------



## doubletrouble

This has been a real teeter-totter for you Mark. Maybe this is the catalyst you need to change the stream of life you've been dabbling in. You have my prayers.


----------



## Mark72

After church everyone came over for Easter dinner. We all went outside and it wasn't too bad. When we came in, our sister-in-law was talking about her sisters buying a new house. Several of our mutual friends are buying houses. She and I have been staying with her parents for a few months. She lwent off on her mom then came up and said she cant live a lie anymore and I have to leave. She is unwilling to go to counseling or anything, she just wants to start over and start working on herself with she and the kids. 
Honestly it hurts that right now it looks like there is little to no hope. I may be foolish but I'm not giving up. I'm still working on me. My anxiety level is not as bad as it was last time we split up. But she is calm toward me, she said she is to blame for not wanting to work on us, but she doesnt want to deal with me anymore. 
On the flip side, she wants me to still come daily to see the kids. She is not keeping me from them.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> After church everyone came over for Easter dinner. We all went outside and it wasn't too bad. When we came in, our sister-in-law was talking about her sisters buying a new house. Several of our mutual friends are buying houses. She and I have been staying with her parents for a few months. She lwent off on her mom then came up and said she cant live a lie anymore and I have to leave. She is unwilling to go to counseling or anything, she just wants to start over and start working on herself with she and the kids.
> Honestly it hurts that right now it looks like there is little to no hope. I may be foolish but I'm not giving up. I'm still working on me. My anxiety level is not as bad as it was last time we split up. But she is calm toward me, she said she is to blame for not wanting to work on us, but she doesnt want to deal with me anymore.
> On the flip side, she wants me to still come daily to see the kids. She is not keeping me from them.


Honestly, I cannot understand parents who enable grown children to act like this. Sorry, but if my daughter wants to be a big girl and get a divorce, she can be a big girl and have her own place. End of story.

I'm sure you can trace back this type of behavior since she was very little. Same deal with my ex. The parallels are quite similar. She contradicts herself. She wants to work on herself, but yet start over. You can't do both. If you start over, you are saying that I'm going to get rid of the "problem" in hopes that I will do better next time. It doesn't work. And, of course, she doesn't want to see a counselor......they would call her out on her b.s.

Alas, I don't think it is foolish to have hope, however, the longer you guys toiled in this crazy land you have been in, the less the chance of reconciliation.

My advice to you at this point is to fight like heck for 50/50 custody. She needs to understand that she isn't going to get everything she wants, and this needs to be fair to everyone. You guys need to set a custody schedule ASAP. You need to be able to come get the kids 50% of the time and spend time with them AWAY from her. She is not a good person at the moment, and she absolutely needs a massive heart change.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> I'm sure you can trace back this type of behavior since she was very little. Same deal with my ex. The parallels are quite similar. She contradicts herself. She wants to work on herself, but yet start over. You can't do both. If you start over, you are saying that I'm going to get rid of the "problem" in hopes that I will do better next time. It doesn't work. * And, of course, she doesn't want to see a counselor......they would call her out on her b.s.* Her own dad said the same thing this morning.
> 
> Alas, I don't think it is foolish to have hope, however, the longer you guys toiled in this crazy land you have been in, the less the chance of reconciliation.
> 
> My advice to you at this point is to fight like heck for 50/50 custody. She needs to understand that she isn't going to get everything she wants, and this needs to be fair to everyone. You guys need to set a custody schedule ASAP. You need to be able to come get the kids 50% of the time and spend time with them AWAY from her. She is not a good person at the moment, and she absolutely needs a massive heart change.
> She isn't battling me trying to keep the kids away, but she wants me to go there to see the kids. For the first week or so I am going along with it until I can get a bit established away from there. But I will be taking tem back. My cousin lives in the house next door and she has kids around my kids age.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> She isn't battling me trying to keep the kids away, but she wants me to go there to see the kids. For the first week or so I am going along with it until I can get a bit established away from there. But I will be taking tem back. My cousin lives in the house next door and she has kids around my kids age.


ASAP. AND, I mean it. You need to get the kids to spend time away from her. She needs to feel that.


----------



## Mark72

I'm on the rollercoaster. One minute I'm joking, the next I'm back to missing my place and family. I thought this feeling was done.


----------



## doubletrouble

Roller coasters are like that, Mark. One minute you're climbing slowly to the top; the next moment you're plunging into a dark tunnel (no sexual innuendo implied there). You have a ticket to the show, and it's going to last longer than you want. 

Hate to say it, but maybe you should be looking for the exit. This is crazy-making.


----------



## Mark72

Ok. Last night, about 15 minutes before I got off work, her dad text me and said that she said I could come back and stay in the basement. While I like the idea of staying with the kids, I believe that she is wanting me there for her convenience. I stayed last night, I will stay again tonight. I will gauge the situation, all the while forming my own exit strategy. If that's all this is, she needs a wake up call. I have begged her to reconsider. She chose this path. She will need to deal with it. 
I'm not going to file or hire an attorney. I will make the visitation schedules away from the house and avoid contact with her as much as possible. I just want to see what happens over the next few days.


----------



## doubletrouble

She's running your life and now their house. Wow. 
It can be strategic to bide your time, wait for the right moment. 
But you need to be spring-loaded and ready, not faint.
It's emotionally crippling, what you're going through. But staying in it long term is worse. Take it from me, in a 20 year marriage that was over on Day 1.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> She's running your life and now their house. Wow.
> It can be strategic to bide your time, wait for the right moment.
> But you need to be spring-loaded and ready, not faint.
> It's emotionally crippling, what you're going through. But staying in it long term is worse. Take it from me, in a 20 year marriage that was over on Day 1.


I am going to sit it out at least a day. I took Friday off to be wtih the kids all day. I will see what happens between now and then. I am contacting my aunt and giving her a heads up. The place is ready for me whenever. I also need to figure out child care for when I have the kids.


----------



## LanieB

You can do this, Mark. Once you make your move and get out of that awful situation, I know you're going to be happier. I understand that you have to do this at your own pace. I've been there.


----------



## Mark72

LanieB said:


> You can do this, Mark. Once you make your move and get out of that awful situation, I know you're going to be happier. I understand that you have to do this at your own pace. I've been there.


My real issue right now is this:
She is going to try to keep my visits with the kids at her parents' house. I don't know how to approach this because that is not acceptable. It will be a fight. Her mother believes that we need to try to mask all this from the kids for their sake. I, my pastor, my counselor, and probably all my TAM friends agree that I need time with my children away from her.
I don't know how to approach this because I am quite sure it is expected that I spend my time with the kids at the in-laws.
If I knew it wouldn't be a struggle I would have not come back.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> My real issue right now is this:
> She is going to try to keep my visits with the kids at her parents' house. I don't know how to approach this because that is not acceptable. It will be a fight. Her mother believes that we need to try to mask all this from the kids for their sake. I, my pastor, my counselor, and probably all my TAM friends agree that I need time with my children away from her.
> I don't know how to approach this because I am quite sure it is expected that I spend my time with the kids at the in-laws.
> If I knew it wouldn't be a struggle I would have not come back.



Mark, if you are struggling with doing such a simple thing, how are you going to actually deal with the not allowing other people (her and her family) manipulate how you parent? 

C'mon man. This is the easy part. Just say, I want time with my kids alone. That's it, and do it. Let them say or do whatever they want because it doesn't matter what they think. You don't have to explain yourself. YOU are their FATHER.

These people have way too much control over you.

DO NOT discuss any parenting details with her parents. They should be excluded. If her dad or mom brings it up, just say.."I am not ok talking about this with you." AND, move on.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Mark, if you are struggling with doing such a simple thing, how are you going to actually deal with the not allowing other people (her and her family) manipulate how you parent?
> 
> C'mon man. This is the easy part. Just say, I want time with my kids alone. That's it, and do it. Let them say or do whatever they want because it doesn't matter what they think. You don't have to explain yourself. YOU are their FATHER.
> 
> These people have way too much control over you.
> 
> DO NOT discuss any parenting details with her parents. They should be excluded. If her dad or mom brings it up, just say.."I am not ok talking about this with you." AND, move on.


Again, I don't want it to get ugly in front of the kids. It will. Just taking them will be a huge backlash - I don't want the kids subjected to it. She would probably go as far as to make it get physical. She's done it before.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Again, I don't want it to get ugly in front of the kids. It will. Just taking them will be a huge backlash - I don't want the kids subjected to it. She would probably go as far as to make it get physical. She's done it before.


Look. That's utterly crazy. I don't get ugly around the kids even though there have been a serious amount of times where it should have and their mom acted ugly in front of them. You don't want the kids subjected to it, but, unfortunately, they are going to see this sooner or later. They need to see their dad having good boundries, treating others how he wants to be treated, and standing up for his relationship with them. YOU CANNOT HIDE HER CRAZY FROM THEM! That is HER choice. 

THIS IS THEIR MOM. IT IS WHO SHE IS. You allow HER to be responsible for her actions. What are you going to do a year from now/ 5 years from now? Are you going to allow her to dictate what is right because of how she might react? You have to start doing the actions.....NOW. You are a man. Do what you were created to do........LEAD.

How you handle this will set the tone for the rest of your coparenting life with her. She doesn't respect you as a father. Her parents don't respect you as a father. THAT needs to stop. Your kids don't need to be subjected to THAT!

It's not that hard to not become physical. If she becomes physical, call the cops. Handle yourself appropriately. "I am their father. You want a divorce. I am ok with the divorce. Our kids need to get used to what that is going to look like." Period. AND, you may not end up leaving with them. BUT, you have set the tone that you are going to start moving towards this. Avoiding it altogether compounds the issue and sets precedence that it's ok for you to have to come to them and have them monitor your time with the children.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Look. That's utterly crazy. I don't get ugly around the kids even though there have been a serious amount of times where it should have and their mom acted ugly in front of them. You don't want the kids subjected to it, but, unfortunately, they are going to see this sooner or later. They need to see their dad having good boundries, treating others how he wants to be treated, and standing up for his relationship with them. YOU CANNOT HIDE HER CRAZY FROM THEM! That is HER choice.
> 
> THIS IS THEIR MOM. IT IS WHO SHE IS. You allow HER to be responsible for her actions. What are you going to do a year from now/ 5 years from now? Are you going to allow her to dictate what is right because of how she might react? You have to start doing the actions.....NOW. You are a man. Do what you were created to do........LEAD.
> 
> How you handle this will set the tone for the rest of your coparenting life with her. She doesn't respect you as a father. Her parents don't respect you as a father. THAT needs to stop. Your kids don't need to be subjected to THAT!
> 
> It's not that hard to not become physical. If she becomes physical, call the cops. Handle yourself appropriately. "I am their father. You want a divorce. I am ok with the divorce. Our kids need to get used to what that is going to look like." Period. AND, you may not end up leaving with them. BUT, you have set the tone that you are going to start moving towards this. Avoiding it altogether compounds the issue and sets precedence that it's ok for you to have to come to them and have them monitor your time with the children.


I think the date will be after church Sunday


----------



## magnoliagal

Mark72 said:


> Again, I don't want it to get ugly in front of the kids. It will. Just taking them will be a huge backlash - I don't want the kids subjected to it. She would probably go as far as to make it get physical. She's done it before.


My husband is a cop. Keep your voice-activated-recorder on you when you make the exchange. If she starts touching you, repeat this line over and over:

"Physical violence is unacceptable for either one of us"

Whatever she says back, repeat the line again until it sinks in.

Once you have the recording and things escalate (to yelling and physical stuff on her part), step outside and call the police.

End of story.


----------



## Mark72

The VAR is gone. I went looking for it in her car and couldn't find it. She just hasn't mentioned it. Perhaps she is using it on me


----------



## magnoliagal

Mark72 said:


> The VAR is gone. I went looking for it in her car and couldn't find it. She just hasn't mentioned it. Perhaps she is using it on me


Get another one. Now.


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## U.E. McGill

I said this before, I'll say it again. This time 2x4 hard. 

Your being a nice guy! You are not controlling your own destiny, so she and her family is! STOP IT!

You can pick bible passages out that support your cause, and I bet I can find a few that support mine. So to me that's a neutral argument. 

Fact: she doesn't respect you. 
Fact: she will never respect you as long as you are being a nice guy
Fact: you can never have a good marriage where there is no respect. 

Put yourself first. Stop catering to her feelings. Take her off the pedestal and see her for the broken person she is and that her actions portray. Lead your family, and have a purposeful life. Just then, you might get the marriage you want. 

I'll say it again. You MUST be willing to give it all up to get the marriage you deserve. Until she realizes you don't need her, you'll always be her plan B. Is that what you want?


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> I said this before, I'll say it again. This time 2x4 hard.
> 
> Your being a nice guy! You are not controlling your own destiny, so she and her family is! STOP IT!
> 
> You can pick bible passages out that support your cause, and I bet I can find a few that support mine. So to me that's a neutral argument.
> 
> Fact: she doesn't respect you.
> Fact: she will never respect you as long as you are being a nice guy
> Fact: you can never have a good marriage where there is no respect.
> 
> Put yourself first. Stop catering to her feelings. Take her off the pedestal and see her for the broken person she is and that her actions portray. Lead your family, and have a purposeful life. Just then, you might get the marriage you want.
> 
> I'll say it again. You MUST be willing to give it all up to get the marriage you deserve. Until she realizes you don't need her, you'll always be her plan B. Is that what you want?


No I don't. I'm in the toilet right now. I was feeling pretty strong today but now that it's getting close to time to go back, I'm a bundle of nerves and emotion... Grrrrrr


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## doubletrouble

Go back in your day and find that then, Mark. Find how you felt, and resurrect it. Don't let your life be ruled by feelings. Use your male rationale, logic, self-discipline. MAKE yourself feel different. It really can be done. 

If you know about how to do deep breathing exercises, do that before you go back. Calm your inner self. 

Later you can fall apart on your own. Right now you don't have many options.


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## LanieB

Mark, these are your kids too. I completely agree with Dedicated2Her - do NOT let your wife dictate when, where, and how you can see your kids. No. No. NOOOO. If you let her start that crap now, it will never end, and you might as well kiss your role as parent goodbye. I understand how you don't want to give up on your marriage, and you've let her call all the shots so far regarding it, but this is about *your kids*. 

You are their father, and you have the right to visit with them without her supervision. I don't care how scared to death of your wife you are, you absolutely can NOT let her do this. You have to stand up to her. JUST DO IT.


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## Mark72

Dear God, please give me strenght....


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## LanieB

You can do this, Mark. 

Where are you living right now? Did you move into the place you were talking about, or did you move back to the in-laws'?


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## Mark72

LanieB said:


> You can do this, Mark.
> 
> Where are you living right now? Did you move into the place you were talking about, or did you move back to the in-laws'?


Go ahead and say it... I'm a sucker/idiot/nice guy/etc.

Thursday morning, she text me and told me that she wants to stop playing these games and be nice to me, civil for the sake of the kids. That night she asked me to come back up out of the basement.
Pretty sure it's to help with the baby. I did. She took care of him last night once and I did once. She was being nice and even joking a bit. Even when the kids were asleep.
I know I am grasping at straws.


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## mineforever

Hi Mark...no your not grasping at straws, your looking for hope. Its hard to let go of something you love....you want with all your being for it to be different. My prayer is that God will give you a calm and peace that passes all understanding today.


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## Mark72

Last night she asked me if I could help her with some school work. I said I will for a backrub. She said OK. It was a nice one.... that led to sex. Halfway through, she started crying...
Not acting hateful to me. Just not sure about herself... She didnt talk about it. Here we go again


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## Dedicated2Her

> Last night she asked me if I could help her with some school work. I said I will for a backrub. She said OK. It was a nice one.... that led to sex. Halfway through, she started crying...
> Not acting hateful to me. Just not sure about herself... She didnt talk about it. Here we go again


Not sure about herself? I can tell you that more than likely she is crying because SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. However, we are fleshly creatures, and it's so easy to fall into it. I guarantee you she is guilting herself for falling into it.

Let me ask you a question. Why on this green earth would you want her to give you a back rub? She doesn't respect you. The whole "I'll help you if you give me a back rub" goes well in a very healthy, happy relationship. You are not in one. 

Both of you are playing games with each other to get what you personally want and what fits in your own desires. Just fyi.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Not sure about herself? I can tell you that more than likely she is crying because SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU. However, we are fleshly creatures, and it's so easy to fall into it. I guarantee you she is guilting herself for falling into it.
> 
> Let me ask you a question. Why on this green earth would you want her to give you a back rub? She doesn't respect you. The whole "I'll help you if you give me a back rub" goes well in a very healthy, happy relationship. You are not in one.
> 
> Both of you are playing games with each other to get what you personally want and what fits in your own desires. Just fyi.


I like backrubs... that is simple - I don't get em too often. Respect? At this point I'm learning to respect myself... I have lived a long time without it, I'm trying to get used to having some for myself... I was straight forward with what I wanted - although it was said to amuse myself thinking that she would say no.
She actually text me today offering me another backrub if I helped her with a paper LOL
Oh well... I know my wife a little. I know she isn't wanting me out of the picture but not sure how much is due to childcare and finance and how much is due to love. I'm pretty sure the love is really low on the totem pole...


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## Betrayedone

This thread has as many ups, downs, and curves as a roller coaster ride.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I like backrubs... that is simple - I don't get em too often. Respect? At this point I'm learning to respect myself... I have lived a long time without it, I'm trying to get used to having some for myself... I was straight forward with what I wanted - although it was said to amuse myself thinking that she would say no.
> She actually text me today offering me another backrub if I helped her with a paper LOL
> Oh well... I know my wife a little. I know she isn't wanting me out of the picture but not sure how much is due to childcare and finance and how much is due to love. I'm pretty sure the love is really low on the totem pole...


She feels trapped, but is unwilling to do any work to rectify it. I know that particular situation quite well. If she doesn't change her actions, her feelings towards you (love) will not change. I did the dance you are doing right now for 2 years. Greatest experience of my life. It made me who I am today..... a very happy, well rounded, confident man.


----------



## mineforever

Mark72 said:


> I like backrubs... that;-) is simple - I don't get em too often. Respect? At this point I'm learning to respect myself... I have lived a long time without it, I'm trying to get used to having some for myself... I was straight forward with what I wanted - although it was said to amuse myself thinking that she would say no.
> She actually text me today offering me another backrub if I helped her with a paper LOL
> Oh well... I know my wife a little. I know she isn't wanting me out of the picture but not sure how much is due to childcare and finance and how much is due to love. I'm pretty sure the love is really low on the totem pole...


Glad to hear you had a pretty good evening. ;-) Small steps in the right direction.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> She feels trapped, but is unwilling to do any work to rectify it. I know that particular situation quite well. If she doesn't change her actions, her feelings towards you (love) will not change. I did the dance you are doing right now for 2 years. Greatest experience of my life. It made me who I am today..... a very happy, well rounded, confident man.


The dance... yep. That's a good word there. I'm not a good dancer but I guess ya gotta learn sometime


----------



## Mark72

Betrayedone said:


> This thread has as many ups, downs, and curves as a roller coaster ride.


My theme song.


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## Mark72

mineforever said:


> Glad to hear you had a pretty good evening. ;-) Small steps in the right direction.


They were in "a" direction.
Not sure if it was the right one.... But if she gets to the point where she will go back to counseling for the long haul, then I'll say that's the right direction.
Things are looking up a bit. Not making any declarations or anything. Just haven't had a really bad day since last week. Not pushing anything, just riding the wave.


----------



## mineforever

You have a great evening...be praying for you two.


----------



## doubletrouble

I'm a little jealous. I never EVER get backrubs.


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## Mark72

The woman needs to figure out what she wants PDQ!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Dedicated2Her said:


> I can tell you that more than likely she is crying because SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.


Sorry to tell you this Mark but D2H is 100% right. I know from experience. Some women can only sleep with the person they are in love with at the time and if THAT'S her reaction then it isn't you. They will exhibit physical symptoms such as, checking out during sex, becoming upset, crying, or even becoming nauseous. That's a HUGE red flag that you are in false R.


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## mineforever

Top of the mornin Mark...how are you doing?


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## Mark72

Well, still in a holding pattern. I've made some mistakes and done some good things for myself. I told her that she needs to put aside the feelings and do what she thinks is the right thing to do for the family. She gave no response but has been looking for a place for us to live. Her words and her actions are two different things. 
On the other hand... I had my hand surgery last Thursday (that was a great segue if I do say so myself...) Trigger finger release in all 5 digits on my left hand. It's healing and stronger. Stitches in my thumb came out today so I have gauze on it and waiting for the doc to let me know what I should do.


----------



## Cynthia

I have spent the last couple of days reading through this thread. From the beginning, you have grown a lot. Yes, you are still being ruled by your wife, but at least you are aware and making an effort to change that. My concern is that you are moving out with her again, because that is what she wants, but she is like a roller coaster
Had you considered moving out by yourself and splitting time with the kids so you can have some distance for a while? I know that would be difficult, especially with an infant, but it might help the situation, so your wife did not have so much control. It would give you a chance to make some boundaries and to take more of a role with the children. You both seem to think that she owns them and she literally dictates to you on family matters. That is not healthy.
Also, it seems that your wife is not doing a good job with the finances. Have the two of you considered taking a Dave Ramsey course to get your finances worked out and for you to take an active role in them? It doesn’t seem like a good idea for your wife to have such control over them, as she seems to over everything else.
You are equally responsible for the family and the finances. I admire your choice to stick it out and to work on changing yourself. Part of that is not allowing her to have control over everything. An example is that you could tell her that you want to work with her to make a budget together and set a time to do it. If she doesn’t want to do that, then you tell her that you will handling the finances if she doesn’t want to do it together.
I have a few questions that might help us to better understand your situation.
You said you are both in school full time. What are your majors and when do you expect to graduate?
Are you both working full time or is she working part time?
What got you into the financial situation you are in and has that been resolved?
Where is all the money for daycare going – to her sister? If it is, I think childcare should be changed. The woman is a detriment to your marriage and you could pay someone else who is not against you. Your children should not be staying with someone who apparently hates you. That is a bad situation and should be changed. Depending on where you live, you could probably find a teen-aged babysitter who would be a better choice. I know a lot of people do not like the idea of teen-aged babysitters, but there are a lot of responsible girls out there who do an excellent job of childcare. Both of my daughters babysat and did a terrific job. My then 16 year old babysat for the neighbor girl and even helped her with her homework to the point that it was finished before her mother got home. She is loving and responsible and I know that there are other girls out there with the same level of responsibility and care. They also do not charge as much as childcare centers or most adults and they will come to your home. Just a thought, but I really think the sister-in-law needs to be out of the picture. She is bad for the family. Of course your wife will hate that idea, but too bad. It is hurting you and you can set a boundary that you will not be in that position.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Well, still in a holding pattern. I've made some mistakes and done some good things for myself.* I told her that she needs to put aside the feelings and do what she thinks is the right thing to do for the family.* She gave no response but has been looking for a place for us to live. Her words and her actions are two different things.


So, you are letting her lead? It's high time you led, Mark. High time. 

And the comment I bolded........is passive aggressive manipulation. STOP IT.


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> So, you are letting her lead? It's high time you led, Mark. High time.
> 
> *And the comment I bolded........is passive aggressive manipulation. STOP IT.*


Dammit!!!! You're right.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> I have spent the last couple of days reading through this thread. From the beginning, you have grown a lot. Yes, you are still being ruled by your wife, but at least you are aware and making an effort to change that. My concern is that you are moving out with her again, because that is what she wants, but she is like a roller coaster
> Had you considered moving out by yourself and splitting time with the kids so you can have some distance for a while? I know that would be difficult, especially with an infant, but it might help the situation, so your wife did not have so much control. It would give you a chance to make some boundaries and to take more of a role with the children. You both seem to think that she owns them and she literally dictates to you on family matters. That is not healthy.
> Also, it seems that your wife is not doing a good job with the finances. Have the two of you considered taking a Dave Ramsey course to get your finances worked out and for you to take an active role in them? It doesn’t seem like a good idea for your wife to have such control over them, as she seems to over everything else.
> You are equally responsible for the family and the finances. I admire your choice to stick it out and to work on changing yourself. Part of that is not allowing her to have control over everything. An example is that you could tell her that you want to work with her to make a budget together and set a time to do it. If she doesn’t want to do that, then you tell her that you will handling the finances if she doesn’t want to do it together.
> I have a few questions that might help us to better understand your situation.
> You said you are both in school full time. What are your majors and when do you expect to graduate?
> Are you both working full time or is she working part time?
> What got you into the financial situation you are in and has that been resolved?
> Where is all the money for daycare going – to her sister? If it is, I think childcare should be changed. The woman is a detriment to your marriage and you could pay someone else who is not against you. Your children should not be staying with someone who apparently hates you. That is a bad situation and should be changed. Depending on where you live, you could probably find a teen-aged babysitter who would be a better choice. I know a lot of people do not like the idea of teen-aged babysitters, but there are a lot of responsible girls out there who do an excellent job of childcare. Both of my daughters babysat and did a terrific job. My then 16 year old babysat for the neighbor girl and even helped her with her homework to the point that it was finished before her mother got home. She is loving and responsible and I know that there are other girls out there with the same level of responsibility and care. They also do not charge as much as childcare centers or most adults and they will come to your home. Just a thought, but I really think the sister-in-law needs to be out of the picture. She is bad for the family. Of course your wife will hate that idea, but too bad. It is hurting you and you can set a boundary that you will not be in that position.


A lot of things have changed with this new girlfriend of hers.
First, I think she is trying to get my wife to leave me and get with another guy. Second, the new friend makes really good money and spends freely. Wife is doing the same. THe new friend is very thin, a yoga instructor. Wife is trying to lose weight. She wants to be just like this new friend. 
Yes, I am bitter toward the new friend. I know it. I see what the changes are and the attitude. She's going through a nasty divorce and wife is seeing her live like a party girl and she is trying to follow.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> A lot of things have changed with this new girlfriend of hers.
> First, I think she is trying to get my wife to leave me and get with another guy. Second, the new friend makes really good money and spends freely. Wife is doing the same. THe new friend is very thin, a yoga instructor. Wife is trying to lose weight. She wants to be just like this new friend.
> Yes, I am bitter toward the new friend. I know it. I see what the changes are and the attitude. She's going through a nasty divorce and wife is seeing her live like a party girl and she is trying to follow.


Then why are you still following your wife? She is all over the place. It's like you are a boat in the ocean tied to another boat that is spinning out of control. Put your anchor down. As a Christian, you life is to revolve around the Lord. When it revolves around your wife, that makes her an idol and it causes all sorts of problems.
You can take a stand by moving into a place without her. If she wants the party life, you don't want that in your home.
I recommend that you seek legal advice immediately.
Also has your wife spent the income tax return? Why are you letting her have control over all the money?
When are you finished with school?


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> Dammit!!!! You're right.


The best thing to say in this type of situation is this...."Wife, I want this to work. However, I need help to make it work. I cannot make a relationship work by myself. You can either step up, and help me with this, meet me halfway.......or get out. I will not live in limbo forever."

End of story. No manipulation. No trying to guilt her. Just saying.....you need to step up and make a decision. AND, that means actually ACTING on your decision....whatever it is.


----------



## Cynthia

Dedicated2Her said:


> The best thing to say in this type of situation is this...."Wife, I want this to work. However, I need help to make it work. I cannot make a relationship work by myself. You can either step up, and help me with this, meet me halfway.......or get out. I will not live in limbo forever."
> 
> End of story. No manipulation. No trying to guilt her. Just saying.....you need to step up and make a decision. AND, that means actually ACTING on your decision....whatever it is.


She does need to be held accountable for holding the pornography against you. You have done everything you can and are not acting out. She is using it as an excuse for her bad behavior and an entitlement attitude towards you. She is wrong to do that.


----------



## Mark72

Really getting anxious about today. I think I need to make a move. And I'm not liking it.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Really getting anxious about today. I think I need to make a move. And I'm not liking it.


Think of it this way, you are not happy with her making all the moves and all the decisions and you responding to them. It is time for you to do what is right, whether she likes it or not. Tie your ship up to the Rock and drop your anchor. Do not be tossed around by the waves of your wife's unstable thinking. Make your own decisions based on what you know if right for your family.
I am not saying that you should dominate your wife or try to make her do anything. I am saying that as a godly man you have a responsibility to God and your family to make honorable decisions and to stand up for what is right. Going along with someone who is focused solely on her emotions is highly unstable and unhealthy for her, you and the children. Someone needs to grow a backbone and do the right thing, even if she is not going to follow you. It is her choice whether or not do follow you in the right direction. It is your responsibility to walk in faith in the direction that you know is right.


----------



## Mark72

I get a lot of advice to just move out. I understand that. I understand the logic. I understand that it will force the conclusion to this segment of the storm to come quicker. But I'm not sure that right now is the right time. I have a place to live with family if I want to go. It would give me some clear thinking and make her see what life without me will be like. But I just have a feeling that it's not supposed to be now. I don't know. I have too many voices in my head now... too many ideas of what I COULD do, but not one strong feeling of what is RIGHT to do RIGHT NOW. I'm happy that I am with my kids every day. I'm happy that she is being civil to me. I'm happy that I am sleeping in my bed. I'm NOT happy that she is not agreeing to going to counseling. I am going. I will continue to go whether or not we divorce.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I get a lot of advice to just move out. I understand that. I understand the logic. I understand that it will force the conclusion to this segment of the storm to come quicker. But I'm not sure that right now is the right time. I have a place to live with family if I want to go. It would give me some clear thinking and make her see what life without me will be like. But I just have a feeling that it's not supposed to be now. I don't know. I have too many voices in my head now... too many ideas of what I COULD do, but not one strong feeling of what is RIGHT to do RIGHT NOW. I'm happy that I am with my kids every day. I'm happy that she is being civil to me. I'm happy that I am sleeping in my bed. I'm NOT happy that she is not agreeing to going to counseling. I am going. I will continue to go whether or not we divorce.


If you don't think that moving out is the right thing to do at this time, then don't do it, but that doesn't mean you have to obey your wife and live by her fluctuating rules. You have to be strong in yourself to know what healthy boundaries are and to walk in them.
For one thing, your finances appear to be out of control. What happened to the income tax refund? What are you doing to take personal responsibility for the family finances? You are living with the results of not being responsible. It is not only your wife's fault. You bear personal responsibility and will answer to God for the stewardship of your finances.


----------



## Mark72

Well... on a positive note, I decided to set an appointment for her to go to the counselor by herself Monday evening. She agreed to go.


----------



## violet37

I'm new to your thread, but I've read most of the comments. All that runs through my head is you are playing a game right now that you cannot possibly win. She is out of your league. She doesn't forgive you, respect you, but she will be happy to lead you around by the nose for eternity if that is what you wish. You are going to crash and burn. I have a very good friend who sounds exactly like you, except she is (was) the wife. Not only did her husband have no respect for her, but neither do her children now. I know you don't want to hear this, and she didn't either, but you are far better off with whatever a good lawyer can work out for you. Take a friend with a solid backbone with you to see the lawyer. You owe it to yourself, your children, and in a way, to your wife. Everyone needs to move on. You need to grow as a person before you resume a relationship with her or anyone else. Your level of anxiety is a serious deal, you have already had serious health problems. Do you want to be around long enough to be a father?


----------



## violet37

Separation or divorce doesn't always mean the end. It also can signal a new beginning. I am engaged to my ex husband. People can gain a new respect for each other. Or they may hate each other forever. Or they meet the love of their life 

FYI rarely will a woman have any use or respect for what they perceive to be a weak man.
Don't watch porn ever again. You admitted you had an addiction to it.


----------



## mineforever

Mark...one thing in this life I have learned is when and if the time comes that you need to make a move you will know it. Its like the last straw breaks....something will just snap and you will know its time. Quit worrying about it and work on yourself and being the best you ...you can for your kids right now. You'll know what to do and when to do it concerning your wife....its obvious you love her and your giving her every chance....but there will be a point where your heart will say enough is enough.


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## Mark72

The session was basically her telling the counselor that she is done and only doing this for the kids. I guess we have to have the talk tonight or tomorrow.
I dont want to do this, but it will probably be for the best for me to move out


----------



## Mark72

But... I will have to wait til my hand heals. Surgery was done 2 weeks ago to release trigger finger on all my fingers on the left hand. Can't carry much...


----------



## PBear

Start talking to a lawyer before you move out. Before you talk to her, even. Know your rights AND your obligations. Information is king. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> The session was basically her telling the counselor that she is done and only doing this for the kids. I guess we have to have the talk tonight or tomorrow.
> I dont want to do this, but it will probably be for the best for me to move out


Are you surprised the session went like that? So, you made the appointment for her and she "agreed" to go? Of course she told the counselor that. 

Give defiant people what they want. Let her go, Mark. She has to come to a place of humbleness, and it isn't going to happen with you protecting her.


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## Mark72

I know where things are now. 

I strongly believe that if she and I go to counseling and stop sweeping crap under the rug then we have a fair shot which is better than where we are now. If she isn't then it's done.
I don't like that thought but I am coming to grips with it. Yeah, it empowers her to know that it's up to her no matter what I do - leave, stay, find another apartment, file for divorce - whatever...
But I'm not ready to give up hope that she will make an effort. Is that delusional? Probably. But I'm not quite ready...


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> I know where things are now.
> 
> 
> 
> I strongly believe that if she and I go to counseling and stop sweeping crap under the rug then we have a fair shot which is better than where we are now. If she isn't then it's done.
> 
> I don't like that thought but I am coming to grips with it. Yeah, it empowers her to know that it's up to her no matter what I do - leave, stay, find another apartment, file for divorce - whatever...
> 
> But I'm not ready to give up hope that she will make an effort. Is that delusional? Probably. But I'm not quite ready...



I'll say it again. You're being a nice guy. (That's not good).

You think of you can just "make her see the error of her ways" she'd come around and you two could have the happy marriage and be good Christians. 

You don't get it! This time you want her to go to counseling. She does, it back fired. Before it was trying to nice your way back. Engaging in covert contracts and the like. Your such a nice guy and because of it you thwart yourself. 

Yet here you are. Where everyone said you'd be. Go look. I've been rooting for you the whole time. You haven't been. You've been your own worst enemy. 

Put yourself first. Become the best mark you can be. Become AWESOME. Quit putting this women on a pedestal and start looking at her actions.


----------



## Cynthia

Have you gone to the pastor and asked him to ask your wife to stop actively trying to rule and destroy your marriage? If you have, then she should be declared an unbeliever. As she is an unbeliever, you are obligated to let her out of the marriage. 1 Corinthians 7:7-17


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Have you gone to the pastor and asked him to ask your wife to stop actively trying to rule and destroy your marriage? If you have, then she should be declared an unbeliever. As she is an unbeliever, you are obligated to let her out of the marriage. 1 Corinthians 7:7-17


He and his wife have reached out to her.


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## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I strongly believe that if she and I go to counseling and stop sweeping crap under the rug then we have a fair shot which is better than where we are now.


Ummm. No. She needs a HEART change. Even if there was no rug sweeping, she has no humbleness....no teachable spirit. Take away rug sweeping, and you would get venom and spite tossed at you directly in a barrage of nastiness.

Counseling will not change the heart. She needs to be stripped of her "flesh". Only life can do that combined with the opening of a persons eyes to the truth. So far, you have protected her from the very thing she needs to go through in order to possibly achieve those things.


----------



## mineforever

Mark...sometimes you have to let someone you love go in order for them to realize what it was they had and for them to choose to come back to you willingly of their own accord. If she doesn't come back willingly of her own accord then, its not the love you want anyway. I know your not ready but I think your starting to get there. Hang in there.


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## Mark72

I agree with you all. It's getting there. I started putting in applciations for apartments last night. It's a mixture of me being in love with the woman I married, not wanting my kids to go through a divorce, my desire to make this work, and a lot of insecurity that has kept me from leaving. I know much of that is in my head... I don't know if I could ever get back the woman I married. Insecurity sucks. My older son and daughter keep talking about us moving back into the condo where we lived prior to the split in 2012...


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## mineforever

Just take it one step at a time. I tell people to shrink your world down to what you can handle. If you can handle planning for this week only then do that don't look any further ahead. ....if you can look a month, then go with that. If you are only able to plan today..thats ok too. When handling change you have to give yourself time to accept...adjust...and assimilate the change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> He and his wife have reached out to her.


It's not about reaching out to her. It's about the church calling her to account. You have been doing whatever you can to resolve the marriage problems, but she has not. Her behavior is downright ungodly. If the church has called her to repent and she has not, she is an unbeliever. See Matthew 18:15-20. I would ask the church to do this. If they won't, then you have still done your part and ought to consider her to be an unbeliever. Her parents might do the same.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

CynthiaDe said:


> It's not about reaching out to her. It's about the church calling her to account. You have been doing whatever you can to resolve the marriage problems, but she has not. Her behavior is downright ungodly. If the church has called her to repent and she has not, she is an unbeliever. See Matthew 18:15-20. I would ask the church to do this. If they won't, then you have still done your part and ought to consider her to be an unbeliever. Her parents might do the same.


For the record......I wouldn't ask the church to do this. It is manipulation based upon your desire to have someone else do what you want them to do. That being said....I have no problem with the church doing this, just that you having a part of it. You have a long way to go to see your own flesh brought down.....no need to feed it.


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## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> It's not about reaching out to her. It's about the church calling her to account. You have been doing whatever you can to resolve the marriage problems, but she has not. Her behavior is downright ungodly. If the church has called her to repent and she has not, she is an unbeliever. See Matthew 18:15-20. I would ask the church to do this. If they won't, then you have still done your part and ought to consider her to be an unbeliever. Her parents might do the same.


That seems a little vindictive to me. In the end, I will have gained nothing.
Plus, my church is quite seeker friendly and probably wouldn't do any scourging. I haven't been to many churches that would do that, especially in this case. Some would argue that she has grounds for divorce for me looking at porn - lust = adultry in my heart. Some believe carries the same weight as physical adultry. I don't. But it seems that the end result would be worse than the current situation.


----------



## Cynthia

It is not vindictive. It is calling on the church to bring her to repentance. If she doesn't, then she is an unbeliever and you must let her go if she wants to be free of the marriage. That is not manipulation.
Edit: My answer is based on the fact that you have stated that, as a Christian, you don't believe you can divorce her. There are scriptural reasons for divorce and the combination of Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 7 is one of them. First you call on the church to ask her to repent. If she refuses, then you treat her as an unbeliever, even if the church does not. She is not following Christ, therefore, how can she be a Christian. It's very logical. You aren't trying to condemn her. You are simply recognizing the truth of her actions. If she wants out of the marriage at that point, you do not try to force her to remain, you let her go. None of that is manipulation.


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## Dedicated2Her

CynthiaDe said:


> It is not vindictive. It is calling on the church to bring her to repentance. If she doesn't, then she is an unbeliever and you must let her go if she wants to be free of the marriage. That is not manipulation.
> Edit: My answer is based on the fact that you have stated that, as a Christian, you don't believe you can divorce her. There are scriptural reasons for divorce and the combination of Matthew 18 and 1 Corinthians 7 is one of them. First you call on the church to ask her to repent. If she refuses, then you treat her as an unbeliever, even if the church does not. She is not following Christ, therefore, how can she be a Christian. It's very logical. You aren't trying to condemn her. You are simply recognizing the truth of her actions. If she wants out of the marriage at that point, you do not try to force her to remain, you let her go. None of that is manipulation.


His basis for telling the church to do this would be for her to hopefully repent.......that is his motivation. In the way you described it, sure it could possibly not be manipulation. BUT, that is not where Mark is at this moment. If he were to do it based upon where he is emotionally and mentally, it most definitely would be manipulation. 

Of course, I'm not into the legalities of scripture. Doing things so that your actions can "fit" into what you think scripture means makes me uncomfortable. This is coming from someone who grew up within a very legalistic view of scripture.

Mark, you know what's right. Just do your deal.


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## Mark72

My brain is about to explode.


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## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> My brain is about to explode.


The headaches........I know them all too well. Try to stop thinking about it so much. Focus on work and find some light things to do outside of work.


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## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> The headaches........I know them all too well. Try to stop thinking about it so much. Focus on work and find some light things to do outside of work.


No.. I'm just confused... I have reasons for taking any actions. I know what I want. I know the liklihood of getting what I want is low. I can't stop thinking about the what if's. I can't stop beating myself up for it all. I want to move forward. I just don't know if I have the nerve to do what I know I need to do.


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## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> No.. I'm just confused... I have reasons for taking any actions. I know what I want. I know the liklihood of getting what I want is low. I can't stop thinking about the what if's. I can't stop beating myself up for it all. I want to move forward. I just don't know if I have the nerve to do what I know I need to do.


Have you considered sitting down with your wife and telling her that from your perspective she is obviously not willing to work on the marriage and asking her what she would like to do about it and what she would like to do, keeping in mind that you are not willing to let her have full custody of the children? You could also release her to file for divorce, if that is what she wants to do.


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## Cynthia

Dedicated2Her said:


> His basis for telling the church to do this would be for her to hopefully repent.......that is his motivation. In the way you described it, sure it could possibly not be manipulation. BUT, that is not where Mark is at this moment. If he were to do it based upon where he is emotionally and mentally, it most definitely would be manipulation.
> 
> Of course, I'm not into the legalities of scripture. Doing things so that your actions can "fit" into what you think scripture means makes me uncomfortable. This is coming from someone who grew up within a very legalistic view of scripture.
> 
> Mark, you know what's right. Just do your deal.


Why can't he do it without being manipulative? He has got to get out of the cycle and set healthy boundaries. Finding out where his wife is at, which is part of what the Matthew 18 scenario is about, would help to resolve the issues. What does she want to do? Is she going to continue behaving in this vindictive manner or is she going to forgive him and work on the marriage. What she is doing now is vindictive and wrong. Is this how she wants to continue to live? How does this help her or the children? These are the kinds of things that need to be addressed to the best of Mark's ability.
I am trying to help Mark see that there are options. They are not meant to be used manipulatively, but to lead her to make healthy changes and if she refuses, then at least he knows where she is at and if she wants out, he needs to release her. I just don't see how that is a bad thing.


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## turnera

Mark72 said:


> No.. I'm just confused... I have reasons for taking any actions. I know what I want. I know the liklihood of getting what I want is low. I can't stop thinking about the what if's. I can't stop beating myself up for it all. I want to move forward. I just don't know if I have the nerve to do what I know I need to do.


It's never been in your control in the first place. You can do what you need to do, or NOT do what you need to do...and you'll still end up exactly where SHE wants to be because the one who doesn't care has the power.


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## turnera

Mark72 said:


> The session was basically her telling the counselor that she is done and only doing this for the kids. I guess we have to have the talk tonight or tomorrow.
> I dont want to do this, but it will probably be for the best for me to move out


Why? SHE isn't happy, she should move out. The kids stay with you.


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## Cynthia

turnera said:


> Why? SHE isn't happy, she should move out. The kids stay with you.


They are living with her parents. They already threw him out once at her request.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

CynthiaDe said:


> Why can't he do it without being manipulative? He has got to get out of the cycle and set healthy boundaries. Finding out where his wife is at, which is part of what the Matthew 18 scenario is about, would help to resolve the issues. What does she want to do? Is she going to continue behaving in this vindictive manner or is she going to forgive him and work on the marriage. What she is doing now is vindictive and wrong. Is this how she wants to continue to live? How does this help her or the children? These are the kinds of things that need to be addressed to the best of Mark's ability.
> I am trying to help Mark see that there are options. They are not meant to be used manipulatively, but to lead her to make healthy changes and if she refuses, then at least he knows where she is at and if she wants out, he needs to release her. I just don't see how that is a bad thing.


He can't do it without being manipulative because he is a self professed manipulator. There are some core things that he has to learn as a man, or he will never be able to truly have a thriving relationship with a woman. (his current wife or anyone else) Up to this point, Mark can't get out of his own way so fixing a relationship, quite honestly, isn't something that is going to happen. This has been going on (on and off) now since 2009. Yes, she is being vindictive. No doubt. But, Mark holds 50% of why they are where they are. His focus is so much on fixing his marriage that he is missing the very thing that he is trying to be taught here. Unless he can grasp it, he won't ever come to a place of peace where he can truly lead. Based upon his actions so far, going to the church would be an extremely manipulative move because of his history. Just like scheduling her a counseling session and her "agreeing" to go. 

She has told Mark what she wants. She has shown it in her actions. She is defiant, but her "christian" values bring guilt on her. Until Mark can truly trust in himself and in God, this will not change. He has shown that he can't do it while still in the same household. Why? Because his desire to see his family together is so great that he can't help himself but manipulate. It is a toxic situation living with her parents in the midst of this.

He should take the kids and leave with a satisfactory 50/50 split in custody. Period.


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## Mark72

I am manipulative. I am becoming more aware of manipulative behavior but I am not trying to be that way.


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## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I am manipulative. I am becoming more aware of manipulative behavior but I am not trying to be that way.


Recognizing that and being willing to change are the first steps to overcoming it. You are on the right track.


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## mineforever

I am not sure I quite agree that your being manipulative .... theres a fine line here. Only you know your motives Mark, we can't presume to know your thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark72

My motives aren't to be manipulative... but I am a recovering people pleasing nice guy. I create covert contracts. I am learning to recognize them, but I'm not there yet.


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## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> My motives aren't to be manipulative... but I am a recovering people pleasing nice guy. I create covert contracts. I am learning to recognize them, but I'm not there yet.


Exactly. It is something that is done subconciously. Many women feel as though they are being "controlled" when a man doesn't have vision on it.


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## Mark72

Dedicated, this reply is number 667... You da debil, Bobby Boucher!


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## Mark72

Still there.
I said I was going to move out, but MIL convinced me to stay. Still not really ready to leave. Still too much of a chicken s*** to be on my own I guess.


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## Mark72

Forgive me, but today is just one of those days where anxiety is high, so is depression... I feel like having a Mark pity party today. So I'll probably have to keep from posting for a bit...


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## Dedicated2Her

> MIL convinced me to stay


You have to stop communicating with them. Seriously. LOL. AND, it's ok to have a pity party for an hour or two. BUT, you really have to pick yourself up at some point. Get to that place mentally, and just do what you have to do. 

I'm praying for you.


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## Mark72

I'm trying. Today is just a low day. Can't seem to shake it by conventional means.


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## turnera

Try focusing on your long-range goals. What do you ultimately want out of life? What steps are necessary to get there? Pick the very first step, and do that. Today.


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## Mark72

turnera said:


> Try focusing on your long-range goals. What do you ultimately want out of life? What steps are necessary to get there? Pick the very first step, and do that. Today.


Unfortunately, today I am struggling to focus on anything else.
I have been able to detatch quite a bit over the last couple months, but this weekend for some reason things kinda went back a bit for me and today is a rough day. I'll be ok tomorrow. I'm trying to be humorous in social...


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## Mark72

Wow.
Went to IC this morning. A lot came out about my sexual addiction and codependancy. I see it a little differently today. I'm also thinking that I don't need to move forward with my marriage right now, but just deal with my issues first. Perhaps re-learning to be her friend would be best - We kinda skipped that in the courtship process. 
I think a group 12 step program is in my immediate future.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Wow.
> Went to IC this morning. A lot came out about my sexual addiction and codependancy. I see it a little differently today. I'm also thinking that I don't need to move forward with my marriage right now, but just deal with my issues first. Perhaps re-learning to be her friend would be best - We kinda skipped that in the courtship process.
> I think a group 12 step program is in my immediate future.


Now that sounds smart and like a good idea.


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## Mark72

I hate this. I start feeling a little more confident then I get one text and crumble. I rarely talk to her lately. But it seems that just at the right time something will be said to send the anxiety levels through the roof. Someone please send me a man card. Maybe that will help


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## turnera

Start a rigorous exercise program. Volunteer somewhere. Join a club. Take a class. Start filling your life with good things to outweigh the bad.


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## Mark72

turnera said:


> Start a rigorous exercise program. Volunteer somewhere. Join a club. Take a class. Start filling your life with good things to outweigh the bad.


I have been working out. Lost 20 lbs so far. I have found them again along the way...

I'm just finding it difficult to break free... every time I make headway, I get sucked back in...


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## turnera

What does your therapist say about that? Is he/she giving you homework to change your thought patterns?


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## Mark72

turnera said:


> What does your therapist say about that? Is he/she giving you homework to change your thought patterns?


Some.
When I went into how porn entered my life as a child, she had to sit back and think for a while.


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## turnera

Then focus on that homework. Your mind doesn't just turn off and switch gears; you have to do work, just like you would on your body, to change it.


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## Mark72

turnera said:


> Then focus on that homework. Your mind doesn't just turn off and switch gears; you have to do work, just like you would on your body, to change it.


I have made progress. Thanks to the help of many on this site, as well as my pastor and counselor - even to some degree her parents. However, the past couple days my mind has slipped into a spiral - I don't know why but the anxiety level is just like it was 2 years ago when we split up and this thread started... It's pathetic, really...


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## Mark72

This may sound terrible, but I'm also frustrated that the sex stopped. Not the cause of the anxiety... Just not in a good place!!!


----------



## Cynthia

It looks like you are dwelling on the negative. Our emotions are based on our thoughts. If we dwell on the negative, our emotions will soon follow. If we dwell on the positive, our emotions will follow that.
There are several things you can do to overcome anxiety. The most important one is to get control of your thoughts, so your emotions will follow. An easy way to do that is to get some 3x5 cards. I wrote an article on how that works How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World
This is a highly effective method, when used consistently. It is also very easy.
Another thing is to control your breathing. Take deep breathes in through your nose and out through your mouth. Do not mouth breath. Do not hold your breath.
You can overcome anxiety.


----------



## turnera

So go to Vegas and take care of it.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> This may sound terrible, but I'm also frustrated that the sex stopped. Not the cause of the anxiety... Just not in a good place!!!


Of course you aren't. Do you think drug addicts are in a good place when they go through rehab? 

This takes effort, Mark. It isn't going to be easy. But, as a man who has done it, it is SO worth it.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Went to IC this morning. A lot came out about my sexual addiction and codependancy. I see it a little differently today. I'm also thinking that I don't need to move forward with my marriage right now, but just deal with my issues first. Perhaps re-learning to be her friend would be best - We kinda skipped that in the courtship process.
> 
> I think a group 12 step program is in my immediate future.



The friend thing is a bad idea. This is a woman who's contemptuous of you. There's no thing as "let's be friends". 

If you ask me it's just another "nice guy" thing to do. "Well maybe if I'm a great friend she'll see what a good choice I am for a mate!" Bullshît. Go fix yourself first. Quit trying to be something your not. 

Oh and google "the ladder theory on women". You my friend are not on her ladder. If the sex goes away, you've been made a girlfriend with a penis. Not a good position.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> The friend thing is a bad idea. This is a woman who's contemptuous of you. There's no thing as "let's be friends".
> 
> If you ask me it's just another "nice guy" thing to do. "Well maybe if I'm a great friend she'll see what a good choice I am for a mate!" Bullshît. Go fix yourself first. Quit trying to be something your not.
> 
> Oh and google "the ladder theory on women". You my friend are not on her ladder. If the sex goes away, you've been made a girlfriend with a penis. Not a good position.


I FEEL like a little girl right now... :iagree:


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I FEEL like a little girl right now... :iagree:


You are not a little girl. You are a grown man. Like you said, work on yourself.
It is your responsibility to take the plank out of your own eye first. Seeing what needs to change in your own life. Right now you are responding to an unstable woman rather than making your own decisions. Get a handle of who you want to be as a man and become that man. It will change everything.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> You are not a little girl. You are a grown man. Like you said, work on yourself.
> It is your responsibility to take the plank out of your own eye first. Seeing what needs to change in your own life. Right now you are responding to an unstable woman rather than making your own decisions. Get a handle of who you want to be as a man and become that man. It will change everything.


Oh what a wonderful world it would be if I knew what I wanted to be when I grow up.... I never have. 

Been spending a boat load of time in social - it does take the mind off things sometimes...


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## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Oh what a wonderful world it would be if I knew what I wanted to be when I grow up.... I never have.
> 
> Been spending a boat load of time in social - it does take the mind off things sometimes...


What qualities do you think a man should have?
What kind of man do you want to be?


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## mineforever

Mark72...I don't usually recommend books to people but your struggle is very similar to my big guys. The below listed book really helped him alot...it was jointly collaborated on about multiple mens lives. My SHE addiction started in his teens...and spanned most of his adult years - lasting over 30 yrs. I am happy to say he finally conquered his....you can to.

Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time (The Every Man Series)*Paperback

by*Stephen Arterburn*


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> What qualities do you think a man should have?
> What kind of man do you want to be?


Really tough for me to articulate accurately. THat, and I'm not sure.
I never had great role models. There are some biblical characteristics but to describe what that looks like in day to day life? If I could do that, I'd live it out. Then I'd probably not be a member on this forum.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> The friend thing is a bad idea. This is a woman who's contemptuous of you. There's no thing as "let's be friends".
> 
> If you ask me it's just another "nice guy" thing to do. "Well maybe if I'm a great friend she'll see what a good choice I am for a mate!" Bullshît. Go fix yourself first. Quit trying to be something your not.
> 
> Oh and google "the ladder theory on women". You my friend are not on her ladder. If the sex goes away, you've been made a girlfriend with a penis. Not a good position.


Pretty sure after last night that I am still on the ladder, but sometimes it gets folded up...


----------



## Mark72

mineforever said:


> Mark72...I don't usually recommend books to people but your struggle is very similar to my big guys. The below listed book really helped him alot...it was jointly collaborated on about multiple mens lives. My SHE addiction started in his teens...and spanned most of his adult years - lasting over 30 yrs. I am happy to say he finally conquered his....you can to.
> 
> Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time (The Every Man Series)*Paperback
> 
> by*Stephen Arterburn*


I have seen the book - have not read it yet


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## Dedicated2Her

Mark, I know someone else suggested a book. But, I will say this. The book that started me on the path to becoming who God created me to be was "Fathered by God". It was simply amazing. How is your relationship with your parents?


----------



## Mark72

Dedicated2Her said:


> Mark, I know someone else suggested a book. But, I will say this. The book that started me on the path to becoming who God created me to be was "Fathered by God". It was simply amazing. How is your relationship with your parents?


Right now I am reading up on codependency. I see what I have been doing to people. I'm not sure what actions would fall into codependent, and which fall into actual obligations sometimes. I am more confused now than when I started this journey. I had no idea that I wasn't being a sensitive, caring man. All the advice on this thread makes more sense to those that are on the other side of it, but it's still confusing to me.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Really tough for me to articulate accurately. THat, and I'm not sure.
> I never had great role models. There are some biblical characteristics but to describe what that looks like in day to day life? If I could do that, I'd live it out. Then I'd probably not be a member on this forum.


I think that is crux of your problem. If you don't even know what kind of man you want to be, you have to compass or path. You were created by a loving God for a purpose. Seek Him and His path for you. Ask Him to reveal to you who He created you to be. That is where you will find freedom and joy in your life, because you will be walking in exactly what is right for you. He will not withhold this from you, if you are surrendered to His will in your life. He wants you to walk in power, love and sound judgment. He wants you to walk in freedom and peace.
Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> I think that is crux of your problem. If you don't even know what kind of man you want to be, you have to compass or path. You were created by a loving God for a purpose. Seek Him and His path for you. Ask Him to reveal to you who He created you to be. That is where you will find freedom and joy in your life, because you will be walking in exactly what is right for you. He will not withhold this from you, if you are surrendered to His will in your life. He wants you to walk in power, love and sound judgment. He wants you to walk in freedom and peace.
> Proverbs 3:5-6
> Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.


If He's talking, I'm not hearing.... I've prayed that many times.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> If He's talking, I'm not hearing.... I've prayed that many times.


He is speaking. If you don't think you are hearing His voice, then dig in deeper to know Him. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice."
Are you reading the Bible daily? Are you meditating on it? If you carry a 3x5 card in your pocket and whip it out when you need to refocus your thoughts, it will help you to think on things that will help you, rather than tearing yourself down and thinking of all the negative in your life. The key is to get your thought life in order, so you can begin to hear the Lord's voice.
This is not an emotional thing. It is just walking day by day in the word and in prayer and aligning yourself with God. His is with you.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark, during a huge change in my life I read the Bible every day. Any part of it, although I lean more towards the New Testament. Just read it, and think about what you’ve read. Start at the beginning of the New Testament, for instance, and just read all the way through to Revelations. Finish it. 

Then go back and read parts that tugged at your heart. This can give you answers you didn’t even know you were looking for.


----------



## Mark72

I'm ready for this to get better. Not a good day.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I'm ready for this to get better. Not a good day.


Things are not going to get better on their own. The way they get better is by making positive changes.


----------



## turnera

Mark, you haven't followed any advice you've been given. You haven't changed anything in your life. And you keep coming back and repeating the same thing. Do you actually expect anything to change with that pattern?


----------



## Mark72

Hmmmm, here is a partial list of things that I HAVE done...
1. Stopped bringing up our relationship to my wife. Stopped begging/reasoning with her to reconsider. 
2. Stopped talking to her mother about it completely - when she brings it up, I tell her I don't want to talk about it.
3. Cut back on the unsolicited backrubs. It was an every day thing. Yes, I need to stop. This one is a tough one for me because during that time, I feel a little bit normal again.. not like the relationship is healthy, but personally feel somewhat normal.
4. Gone out without her a few times, and made no protest when she goes out with her friends. 
5. Purchased a few books and have begun reading them: Mindful Attraction Plan, MMSP, Codependent No More, Telling Yourself the Truth, His Needs/Her Needs (I will continue this one later, as it is a bit late in the game for it now) NMMNG.
6. Started exercising - Lost 24 lbs. Feeling and looking better.


----------



## Cynthia

That is a good list, Mark. Thank you for sharing it with us. I was wondering as well, but it looks like you are making steady progress. Keep moving in that direction.


----------



## Mark72

I just felt like garbage yesterday.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I just felt like garbage yesterday.


This is normal. You are in a very difficult situation. Keep doing everything you can to enjoy the positive things like your children and the fact that your in-laws care about you. Your wife is the one person who is really messing with you. Don't let her be your whole world - she's not.


----------



## turnera

What I see missing from your list:
Going to an IC at least every other week, if not weekly.
Hanging out with your male friends at least once or twice a month so you build your testosterone back up.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> What I see missing from your list:
> Going to an IC at least every other week, if not weekly.
> Hanging out with your male friends at least once or twice a month so you build your testosterone back up.


Actually I go to IC weekly. I'm glad insurance pays for it. I am trying to hang out more with male friends also. 
If not, I do fun guy stuff by myself - fishing, hunting, etc


----------



## U.E. McGill

Backrubs and yapping about why the marriage are great ways to help your wife move on with getting a divorce. All this advice may not save your marriage. Ignoring it will kill it for sure. 

Your a nice guy. You are still sneaky and manipulative. I've been here from the beginning and I'm afraid I've seen no progress. 

I'll keep checking in, but frankly I predict 2 more years of struggling and then your wife divorces you anyway. 

Good luck.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> Backrubs and yapping about why the marriage are great ways to help your wife move on with getting a divorce. All this advice may not save your marriage. Ignoring it will kill it for sure.
> 
> *Your a nice guy. You are still sneaky and manipulative. I've been here from the beginning and I'm afraid I've seen no progress. *
> 
> I'll keep checking in, but frankly I predict 2 more years of struggling and then your wife divorces you anyway.
> 
> Good luck.


Yes but I am honestly trying to change that.


----------



## doubletrouble

I like #6 on your list Mark. Keep it up; this is one of the best things you can do for your self esteem.


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## Mark72

For the first time in a long time I'm actually serious about getting in better shape


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## movinonup

Hey Mark, I've just finished reading your thread. How's everything going? Hopefully it's not too forward but I do hope you've gotten out of your funk, not necessarily the sad funk, but the funk of constantly hearing advice and then coming back with one-liners like "I feel like garbage", "Today's a bad day", etc. Snap out of it! I'm a Christian man myself, been separated for over 3 months now, and I still hope to work out things with my wife, who has been too hurt by me to want to work things out as well. It's a HARD pill to swallow. Obviously slightly different situation, but I wake up everyday and I make a huge point to Thank God for what I have. I have beautiful children, and an amazing supportive family and small group of friends. 

How are things between you and your kids? Do you feel the bond has faded, or grown stronger? Have you made a conscious effort to focus solely on them when you're with them, instead of letting the negative affect your time with them? I did that for a while and I can tell you it was a horrible feeling. Hanging out with my kids who miss me and I miss them, while at the same time just letting my mind wander and be super negative. Not healthy. Not good.

Awesome advice I actually saw on here as well was when you work out, try to enjoy it. Don't see it as a chore. I lifted a few days ago (I hate working out but I've been eating better and have lost a ton of weight and feel much better about myself, or at least am starting to), and I made a solid point to enjoy it, not to just see it as "ah man I should probably work out". Helps so much. It's the little things in our lives that need to expand to cover the negativity that takes over our lives. Easy to forget about those little things, easy to forget how lucky we are for being father's, son's, friends.

Get up and do something. You're stuck, very very stuck. You're allowing your wife to control your every move. Stop. No more pu$$yfooting around. It's time to allow the changes you've already made and the changes you plan to make to take hold of your life, and make you a better person for it. Don't let your wife suck you in if she is manipulating you like this. To me she sounds extremely depressed and I'm sorry but it really doesn't sound like she wants to be with you. If it's meant to be (I'm very pro-marriage btw, like I said I hope it works out with my wife) then it will happen. But for right now, you two are toxic together. If nothing else, separate, and actually separate. Set a timeline, six months, year, whatever. Move out. Make sure you still see your kids on a regular basis. Do this for you. Stop doing stuff for her.

I say this with love, because I know what it's like to be pleading, begging, needy, and constantly wanting to be at your wife's beckon call just to please her. I've come to realize in my situation that I was a comple ba$tard to my wife and this is why things aren't working right now. I've accepted this. I'm working on myself, and giving it lots and lots of time. You both need lots and lots of time. Don't leave because you want her to see what it'll be like to be alone, don't leave to get away from her parents, or to show that you're a man who can take care of himself, leave because you need to separate yourself from this drama filled house.

Listen. Learn. Do.


----------



## Mark72

Im moving out Friday. Ive made some good moves snd some old, stupid moves. I still get anxieties but I do feel better.


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## movinonup

Mark72 said:


> Im moving out Friday. Ive made some good moves snd some old, stupid moves. I still get anxieties but I do feel better.


I am absolutely no expert on the matter. I'm still in the mix of working on myself as a dad, a man, a friend, a son, and just as a better human being (and not a jerk), and hoping that I can reconcile with my wife. Outlook on reconciliation is no bueno, but one can still hope. I get why you feel such a strong need to stay together for your kids and stay together as you believe in the sanctity of marriage. I am absolutely 100% right behind you on that one. But I'm slowly but surely coming to accept the fact that sometimes, it just doesn't work out. Maybe it's not meant to be. Maybe it's not in God's plan. Maybe God's plan was for you to have two amazing children together. 

I think this move is smart for you, and I think you will both learn a lot about yourselves once you finally get out of there. If it's meant to be, it'll happen. But don't spend 100% of your thoughts on hoping things will work out. Work on you, work on you, work on you. Took me way too long to realize that I can work on myself, and just be a better person in the process. If she likes what she sees, that's awesome. If not, then I still end up being the best version of myself. That's what truly matters. A lot of posts on here come with the advice of working on yourself, and for a while I had a hard time reading them because it can sound very selfish. And it's okay to be selfish, but there's good selfish and bad selfish. You can be selfish and an a-hole, and you can be selfish in making sure you come out of the tunnel as a better person. For me, I'm discovering this version of myself, and it's allowed me to get along better with my wife (or stbxw), much better actually. It's allowed me to be a better Dad. It's allowed me to see the error of my ways, and in that process will in the future allow me to be a much better significant other to either my wife or whoever I'm meant to meet next. If I never get married again and am never in a serious relationship again, then I still came out of it as a good person, and had a good slap in the face to wake me up to make that happen.

Anyways, keep posting. It's good to write things down, and we all want to hear about your journey. I've related a lot to your story (the anxiety and depression and fear of losing someone after you realized what you had before it got bad), and it's always nice to know that someone else is experiencing a lot of the things you can.

Stay strong Mark.


----------



## Mark72

Thank you for your input. Right now I am officially kicked out. I told her that we needed to make a change in a child care plan meaning hit her sister would have to take less or we would have to find someone else. And then the bomb landed. So I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do. I have places to stay but I need to figure out everything. I'm in a pretty bad fog in my anxiety level is through the roof but I will make it


----------



## movinonup

Working out usually helps my anxiety, should try lifting. You WILL get through this on the other end.


----------



## turnera

Go for a walk. It will help you do some thinking so you can figure out your next steps.

Do you want to give us more detail?


----------



## LanieB

I believe you really do need to move out anyway, Mark. I know it's hard, but in the long run (and maybe even in the short run), you're going to be better off. No matter what happens - whether you end up working things out with your wife or not - you need to be away from each other, and being apart will NOT hurt your situation. Staying is hurting your situation.


----------



## Mark72

I am actually in a really good place right now. I faced this using the advice that has been given to me. I didn't whine or negotiate or cater to her demands. I set boundaries and stuck to them. Yes I am out of the house, but that needed to happen. There may or may not be home for my marriage, but I am already seeing improvement in me. She gave me quite a few fitness test over the past two days and I have passed them. I feel really good about it. I've been getting exercise still and that is making you feel good. I am going to struggle at times with anxiety but it is not been as bad as it has been in the past. I also need to remember that I am still married and not too sew into any new relationships. Although it is tempting to do that.


----------



## Mark72

In counseling today I made a new revelation. I am Not Afraid of my wife anymore!


----------



## Mark72

I hate my wife. Shes pulling crap to keep me from my kids


----------



## turnera

Then use your lawyer to stop her.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> Then use your lawyer to stop her.


She cannot keep you from your kids unless you let her. You could take them home with you and there wouldn't be anything she could do about that. Get an attorney and get a plan in writing. Make it real to her. They need their dad. If you do not put your foot down to spend time with them, you are hurting your kids.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I hate my wife. Shes pulling crap to keep me from my kids


This only happens if you allow it. 

You should expect this kind of behavior based upon everything that has happened to this point and be ready for it.


----------



## Mark72

She and her parents are trying to make it so I can see them at their house anytime but I can take them with me. I went to the police station to see what they could do and they said that the court matter. I talked to an attorney and they charge a retainer fee 2500 dollars. Some charge more than that.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> She and her parents are trying to make it so I can see them at their house anytime but I can take them with me. I went to the police station to see what they could do and they said that the court matter. I talked to an attorney and they charge a retainer fee 2500 dollars. Some charge more than that.


You go there and tell the kids to get into the car. Period.


----------



## mineforever

She can only keep your kids from you with a court order. If she doesn't have that she has no right to keep them from you. You can get the same order forcing her to allow you to see the kids. Yes your going to have to retain an attorney. See if there are any assistance groups that will help or church benevolence groups that will assist you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Mark72 said:


> She and her parents are trying to make it so I can see them at their house anytime but I can take them with me. I went to the police station to see what they could do and they said that the court matter. I talked to an attorney and they charge a retainer fee 2500 dollars. Some charge more than that.


Mark, come on. You're not that dumb. You are ONE HALF of those kids' parents. YOUR rights are just as legal as HER rights.

If you want to pick up the kids, pick up the kids.

And you ARE going to have to get a lawyer at some point. Go borrow money from a relative or take out a credit card and get it done.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> She and her parents are trying to make it so I can see them at their house anytime but I can take them with me. I went to the police station to see what they could do and they said that the court matter. I talked to an attorney and they charge a retainer fee 2500 dollars. Some charge more than that.


I've told you before that her parents are not going to be on your side. It doesn't matter how "christian" they are. 9 times out of 10 they are going to support their pathetic, whiny, princess of a daughter. Why? Because they are a big reason she is the way she is......enabling and all that.

You have allowed this woman to dictate everything up until this point. It has gone on so long that she believes she can push you around without any repercussions. Because of this, it is going to be that much harder to move through the divorce process.

I'm not going to tell you what the right answer to this is......it is your call and your journey. But, you need to bring "it". Period.


----------



## Cynthia

It is much better to have an attorney, but you don't need one. Start studying now on what the laws are in your state and what you can do about custody issues, etc.
What kind of place did you move to? How much longer do you have in school?
I really think you need to pick the kids up from home, but if you cannot handle that, pick them up from your sister-in-laws and if she puts up a fight call 911, then get a restraining order against her from trying to kidnap your kids. That will solve the sister-in-law with the kids problem.
I cannot imagine you even commenting on this. It shows how you will not stand up for your children and do what is right as a father. This is terrible. Stand up and do what is right.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> In counseling today I made a new revelation. I am Not Afraid of my wife anymore!


Uh, yes you are. See below.


Mark72 said:


> I hate my wife. Shes pulling crap to keep me from my kids


How could she keep you from your kids? What is she going to do to keep you from them unless you are afraid of her?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Desperate*



CynthiaDe said:


> Uh, yes you are. See below.
> 
> How could she keep you from your kids? What is she going to do to keep you from them unless you are afraid of her?


Too bad I can only like a post once.


----------



## Mark72

I talked to an attorney. I talked to the police department. If they don't allow me to go in to get the kids, I can't go get them, unless I have a court order for visitation. 
I don't have the money for an attorney right now. I CAN have the police come do a stand by to get my property. But she can also contest that it is mine.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I talked to an attorney. I talked to the police department. If they don't allow me to go in to get the kids, I can't go get them, unless I have a court order for visitation.
> I don't have the money for an attorney right now. I CAN have the police come do a stand by to get my property. But she can also contest that it is mine.


Then go pick them up from your sister in law! If she won't let you have them, call 911, as that would be kidnapping.


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## Cynthia

You said they will let you come into visit the children. If they let you in and you take the kids out, they will not have a leg to stand on. Take a VAR with you.
You are not a helpless victim here. Stop acting like one.


----------



## turnera

What about you just going back to YOUR HOME? The one your kids live in? She can't kick you out, if you have proof of living there.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> What about you just going back to YOUR HOME? The one your kids live in? She can't kick you out, if you have proof of living there.


They live with her parents in the parent's home. They can kick him out and apparently they have.


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## turnera

Dang, I keep forgetting that. Never mind. 

Mark, when WILL you be able to afford a lawyer? After your kids are grown and moved out?


----------



## Cynthia

Many people deal with these issues without an attorney. There are books that walk you through the process. You can do this.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given you a spirit of fear, but of power, love and sound mind.
Rely on the power of God to help you through this. If you don't stand up for your children, they will probably never get over it.


----------



## turnera

I'm pushing the attorney because he doesn't seem to be able to do the 'strong' work by himself; the attorney will do it for him.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Then go pick them up from your sister in law! If she won't let you have them, call 911, as that would be kidnapping.


It can be easily established that the kids have been dropped off there


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> You said they will let you come into visit the children. If they let you in and you take the kids out, they will not have a leg to stand on. Take a VAR with you.
> You are not a helpless victim here. Stop acting like one.


Then it becomes an altercation. The kids have been through enough already. That would be even worse on them.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Dang, I keep forgetting that. Never mind.
> 
> Mark, when WILL you be able to afford a lawyer? After your kids are grown and moved out?


I wish I made more money.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> I wish I made more money.


Do something about it...


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> It can be easily established that the kids have been dropped off there


It does not matter. If she will not release your own children to you, she is holding them illegally.


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do something about it...


I'm looking for second jobs now. With my background and experience, I am topped out. I would need a second job, I can't make any more moving elsewhere. My experience is in sales and collections. Sales is commissioned based and that is a scary proposition when it comes to supporting a family.


----------



## doubletrouble

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do something about it...


Is it that simple?


----------



## Mark72

I like this gif in this case...


----------



## Cynthia

Mark, I am not encouraging you to engage in yelling and fighting with anyone. What I am encouraging you to do is to stand up for your family calmly and with power. There are many possibilities for you to follow that do not require an attorney. Taking the attitude that all is lost will get you - lost.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Mark, I am not encouraging you to engage in yelling and fighting with anyone. What I am encouraging you to do is to stand up for your family calmly and with power. There are many possibilities for you to follow that do not require an attorney. Taking the attitude that all is lost will get you - lost.


The good news is that the attorney I spoke to the other day emailed me and asked how I was doing. I told him that I am trying to find some money to come up with the retainer. He said he may do some things to help me pro bono or with some assistance.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes, it is that easy... and I really like Cynthia's post. Calm and with power.... the only thing I will add is Daily... Daily making the decision to make take the actions needed to cause the change you want and do that with the calmness and power that Cynthia mentioned, season it with endurance and you will gain successes along the way.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> The good news is that the attorney I spoke to the other day emailed me and asked how I was doing. I told him that I am trying to find some money to come up with the retainer. He said he may do some things to help me pro bono or with some assistance.



You get nothing in life if you don't ask. 

Get on the phone and call some attorneys. They ain't Walmart. Everything is negotiable including retainer fees. Ask to make installments. Ask about pro bono. ASK ASK ASK! All they can do is say no.


----------



## movinonup

Mark-

I'm sorry dude but you need to ball up. These are YOUR kids too, and you are letting her dictate every move you make when it comes to seeing your kids. If you can't afford an attorney right now, then you can't afford one, but that doesn't make you helpless!!!

Forget the idea of an altercation, it's not like the situation your kids are in now is much better. They're going to be going through a crappy situation no matter which way this goes. If they don't see their father but in the courtesy of their grandparents home, it's going to show. They're going to look at you like you don't have your stuff together, they need to see how responsible their Dad is. And how much he would do to fight for them. DO SOMETHING.


----------



## Mark72

Hell of a weekend. 
I decided to pay for half of the childcare - speaking with the attorney and the counselor, if this goes through to divorce, and I have to pay support, I'll probably have to backdate it to the date I moved out.
So I am paying this for credit.

She asked me to pay cash on Friday to her sister. I refused. I told her I will be paying by check. She asked why. I told her I prefer to do it that way.
So she called.
I ignored it.
She called again.
I ignored it.
She called again.
Me: "What????" 
Her: "Why are you talking to me that way?"
Me: "Because I am busy getting ready for work, how can I help you?"
Her: "Why are you talking to me that way?"
Me: I have to go. I'll give your sister a check when I get off work. Bye.
I Hung up....

The next day, I went to go see the kids. We played, she joined us. She told them that if I stayed later we could all go out and catch fireflies.
We did. She and I sat on the porch swing and she asked if we could talk later. She said let's go for a drive after the kids go to sleep. 
So we left, I just started driving. She asked where I was going, I told her let's talk and drive. She asked to go to my house.
I said there's nothing there. I sleep on an air mattress, I have one chair. She said that's fine. So we got there, and we had a good talk. Then she pounced. She was all over me. She started talking like she did when we were in our hay day. All the stuff she used to do she did again. Best sex I've had in years.
We talked and agreed it's best not to get me back in the house just yet. She agreed to go to counseling with me.
The next day. She is playful. Really playful. Fun, goofing off, tellign me the things she is going to do to me, that she is on call Monday night and she will "get called in" but will be at my house. 
So later, we are watching TV and I got a text from a former TAM member that has been helping me out. She looks at my phone and started reading the texts. One that told him about my talk with the attorney. Another one he called her sister worthless.
That was a bomb that blew us back to square one. 
Funny thing... she didn't tell her mother about it...


----------



## Cynthia

#1 Delete all texts immediately upon reading them.
#2 Keep up what you've been doing. It is working, even though it doesn't feel like it right now.
You not giving in to her or kowtowing to her is exactly what needs to happen.
However, I would also recommend doing things that raise her positive feelings whenever possible. Sexual activity definitely raises oxytocin, so the positive feelings you both had from that are helpful. Some things that you can do would be to give her chocolate, play relaxing music, smile at her, speak kindly to her, etc. These all increase her positive feelings for you.
A good way to handle something like the messages incident in the future would be to listen to her and let her get out what she wants to say, then to tell her that you understand she is upset and how what you said could upset her, but you also need to be able to express your feelings and you feel uncomfortable with her sister. It's probably not a good idea to call her sister worthless or otherwise down her. What is the point of that kind of negativity. It's okay to have a problem with her, but be careful about how you speak about others, especially when it can get back to your wife and upset her. You want to avoid doing things that can obviously upsetting. I'm not talking about walking on eggshells. I'm talking about things that would cause any normal person to become upset.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> She looks at my phone and started reading the texts. One that told him about my talk with the attorney. Another one he called her sister worthless.
> That was a bomb that blew us back to square one.
> Funny thing... she didn't tell her mother about it...



The fact that you are ok with her reading your phone considering all the BS she has put you through at this point should tell you something.


----------



## Cynthia

Dedicated2Her said:


> The fact that you are ok with her reading your phone considering all the BS she has put you through at this point should tell you something.


I do think it is good to be an open book and allow phone access normally, however, I would have to agree that she is not a safe person. She cannot handle his views and feelings without going ballistic when she sees something she doesn't like. It would be good to tell her that.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

CynthiaDe said:


> I do think it is good to be an open book and allow phone access *normally*, however, I would have to agree that she is not a safe person. She cannot handle his views and feelings without going ballistic when she sees something she doesn't like. It would be good to tell her that.



You are correct. However, she is still a wayward spouse at this moment acting completely irrational. As a separated spouse, a WW would not be looking at my phone.....period. She lost that privilege when she decided to go nuclear on the family.


----------



## Cynthia

Dedicated2Her said:


> You are correct. However, she is still a wayward spouse at this moment acting completely irrational. As a separated spouse, a WW would not be looking at my phone.....period. She lost that privilege when she decided to go nuclear on the family.


I agree. She wants him out, but then she wants access to his phone. When she does get access and sees something that she doesn't like, she get abusive. I don't think it is appropriate for her to see the phone at this point.


----------



## U.E. McGill

CynthiaDe said:


> I agree. She wants him out, but then she wants access to his phone. When she does get access and sees something that she doesn't like, she get abusive. I don't think it is appropriate for her to see the phone at this point.



He's still plan B. When he got a little back bone she pulled out the magic püssy and is trying to get him back into shape. I'm not surprised by any of this. 

Shuffling deck chairs, band is playing, meanwhile the Titanic still sinks....


----------



## Mark72

I see it differently


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I see it differently


Of course you do, you are in the middle of the fray.


----------



## Mark72

Things have seemed to get better...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## U.E. McGill

Well what's changed?


----------



## doubletrouble

Do tell, Mark.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Things have seemed to get better...
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


In what way?
Are you still separated?
Are they still trying to keep you from seeing the kids outside of her parent's home?


----------



## Mark72

My frame is strengthening. No more begging, no more talking about the future. I see the kids at the house, and take them out. No problems. She wants me to stay more and more. Lots of sex. Good sex. Really good sex. And I don't feel like a heel after. She is treating me respectfully and/or playfully. She has made no unreasonable requests and has not asked me for anything unreasonably.
She took my phone the other day when I wasnt watching. She changed my profile picture to a snap of her foot. She didnt go looking through my texts or anything. She was playing with me... 

I have not moved back in. I have not asked. When her mom asks me to come back, I tell her no, it's not a good time and leave it at that. 

I don't want to go back to that house. WHen the time is right, I want to get back to OUR house. But it's not time yet.
I have been spending more time away - fishing with my brother, visiting my dad, riding bikes with friends. I don't spend every last minute with them. I spend a good deal of time with the kids, and love doing that, but I also need to have some me time. I don't need to have my head up her hiney to be happy. I can have a great time with friends and not feel bad about it.
Nah, I'm not cured. Not even close. But I'm on the right track. I feel good. I'm in better shape. I don't feeel the need to walk on eggshells to make her happy. It's not my responsibility to make her happy. It's her choice. Yeah, I still do things for her sometimes if she asks me reasonably, which she has done. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes no. She doesnt really ask for much anymore, to be honest....


----------



## Cynthia

Wow. That is awesome! You are doing awesome. I am really glad to hear you are learning to be yourself and not apologize for it. And it also seems to be improving your relationships all around.
Please keep us updated from time to time so we know how you are doing.


----------



## doubletrouble

That's quite the turnaround, Mark. High 5 to you!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> My frame is strengthening. No more begging, no more talking about the future. I see the kids at the house, and take them out. No problems. She wants me to stay more and more. Lots of sex. Good sex. Really good sex. And I don't feel like a heel after. She is treating me respectfully and/or playfully. She has made no unreasonable requests and has not asked me for anything unreasonably.
> She took my phone the other day when I wasnt watching. She changed my profile picture to a snap of her foot. She didnt go looking through my texts or anything. She was playing with me...
> 
> I have not moved back in. I have not asked. When her mom asks me to come back, I tell her no, it's not a good time and leave it at that.
> 
> I don't want to go back to that house. WHen the time is right, I want to get back to OUR house. But it's not time yet.
> I have been spending more time away - fishing with my brother, visiting my dad, riding bikes with friends. I don't spend every last minute with them. I spend a good deal of time with the kids, and love doing that, but I also need to have some me time. I don't need to have my head up her hiney to be happy. I can have a great time with friends and not feel bad about it.
> Nah, I'm not cured. Not even close. But I'm on the right track. I feel good. I'm in better shape. I don't feeel the need to walk on eggshells to make her happy. It's not my responsibility to make her happy. It's her choice. Yeah, I still do things for her sometimes if she asks me reasonably, which she has done. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes no. She doesnt really ask for much anymore, to be honest....


:smthumbup:


----------



## Mark72

Still a rollercoaster. Her guard comes down, she starts geting close, then the walls come up again. Usually after one little thing she doesn't like, then she hunts for anything she can criticize.
Even her parents are tired of this. So am I.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Still a rollercoaster. Her guard comes down, she starts geting close, then the walls come up again. Usually after one little thing she doesn't like, then she hunts for anything she can criticize.
> Even her parents are tired of this. So am I.


That sounds frustrating. Keep on track doing what you know is right and your life will continue to get better with or without her cooperation. Your wife is an important part of your life to be sure, but she should not be the center of it.


----------



## turnera

I'd be spending more time reading psychology books to learn how to counteract what she's doing.


----------



## Mark72

The lows are getting shorter but it aint even close to what it needs to be to consider moving back in together or even discussing it.


----------



## Mark72

Still improving myself - lots of the same. I don't think she's done putting me through the wringer, but I am taking it all in stride. Codependent Mark is fading, but not gone completely. She initiates sex sometimes. I've mixed it up. I refuse at times, sometimes I'm all in. I think being away has really helped me. The in-laws love me and want my family to be strong, but I had no growth while living under their roof. It sucks to sleep on the floor alone, but I'm making it. Financially I am not in good shape but I will make it. Even if it all crashes down and divorce happens, I will make it.


----------



## U.E. McGill

I check this thread all the time. The power is in your life to change. We're here waiting for you.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> I check this thread all the time. The power is in your life to change. We're here waiting for you.


I am. She is, just not as much. She is still hitting me with fitness tests galore, but I am passing them more and more. I am better able to keep cool, firm, and dispassionate during these tests. When asked to do things, I first determine if it is a reasonable request, and asked in a reasonable tone. If so, then I ask if I am ok with fulfilling the request. If no is the answer for any of these, I am more likely to decline. 
My theme music has changed - It used to be "Ain't too proud to beg"
It even went to "Shameless" for a bit...
Now it's "Stand" - Rascal Flatts.

The thing is - I do still love this woman. Despite what she has become. It's my fault she's like this - she has had no reason to act differently. Now, her excuses for not treating me with respect are vanishing. If it happens that she never treats me accordingly, our marriage will also vanish, and I will be ok. I don't want that, but I know it's an option that I can live with. 
She is noticing that when she has emotional outbursts, I dont respond with emotional outbursts. So her disrespect level has dropped. Still there, but not so much.

I'd call that improvement.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Still improving myself - lots of the same. I don't think she's done putting me through the wringer, but I am taking it all in stride. Codependent Mark is fading, but not gone completely. She initiates sex sometimes. I've mixed it up. I refuse at times, sometimes I'm all in. I think being away has really helped me. The in-laws love me and want my family to be strong, but I had no growth while living under their roof. It sucks to sleep on the floor alone, but I'm making it. Financially I am not in good shape but I will make it. Even if it all crashes down and divorce happens, I will make it.


Your fear is gone. You were full of fear, but now you have found your courage to face whatever comes your way and you are going to live like the man you were made to be no matter what the cost. That is exactly where you need to be in order to overcome the past. You are doing awesome! I am very impressed with the turn around you have made. Good job.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

YAY Mark!:smthumbup:


----------



## lifeistooshort

Hey Mark, well done. You went from being a whiny porn addict to a real man. That will serve you well no matter what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

I had a decent last 2 days. Maintaining my frame well. Passing fitness tests. Then - today - I get the text that she is looking for homes with her sister and BIL for her and the kids to move in... without me.

So - I haven't replied, but all the anxiety that I let out has come back in. I need to keep calm and realize that I am still ok. This is a blindside but I will be ok. It sucks though


----------



## Mark72

I called to talk to the kids, just like I always do at 7pm when I work late.
She kept asking me about my respnse to the text. I told her it's a lot to think about and I will get back to her. She didnt like it but I got to talk to the kids...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Take your time.. think it fully through for sure...


----------



## turnera

Your response: "My lawyer will deal with it tomorrow."


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Your response: "My lawyer will deal with it tomorrow."


She knows I cant afford one.


----------



## turnera

"I'm borrowing money tomorrow so I can get the lawyer I apparently need."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Would she disclose intent if you asked her?


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> "I'm borrowing money tomorrow so I can get the lawyer I apparently need."


Why would I pay for a divorce that I don't want?


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> Would she disclose intent if you asked her?


I think that would put her in an empowered position to control the conversation and catch me off guard. All I have to say about it is that I think it is a bad decision and I will not support it.


----------



## turnera

Mark72 said:


> Why would I pay for a divorce that I don't want?


I was talking about a lawyer to reinstate your parental rights. Which seem to be completely nonexistent at this point.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> I was talking about a lawyer to reinstate your parental rights. Which seem to be completely nonexistent at this point.


I don't have $2500 for the retainer


----------



## turnera

Hence the word borrow. Look, it's up to you. She's clearly moving you out of their lives, and you have a chance to fight it or not. Maybe you can still find ways to be a part of their lives, I don't know. I'm just saying your kids are only kids for a few brief years, and the more time you are not in their daily lives, the worse their lives will be (and yours) for not having their dad invested in them. I can only tell you what I would do, and I would hock myself into eternity if it meant being able to see my kids every single day and have 50/50 custody of them. And pay it off later, once they're grown. Because that's how important it is to kids' development. But that's just me. You gotta do what you gotta do.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark, Can you answer a few questions to help us better understand your position?
What kind of job do you have now?
Are you paying child support now?
Are you still in school? If you are still in school, how much longer do you have and what is your major?
Have you spoken to an attorney at all? They do have free initial consultations.
Have you considered reading up on what to do about your parental rights? There are books that can help you and even though you don't want a divorce, you will find helpful information by looking at divorce sites and divorce books.
A note of encouragement: All of the improvement you have been making are not for your wife or even for your children, they are so you can be the man that you were created to be. You are your best, most effective self when you are living out your life in that manner.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> I think that would put her in an empowered position to control the conversation and catch me off guard. All I have to say about it is that I think it is a bad decision and I will not support it.


yea, that's why I asked it like that to find out if that was the type girl she was and I agree with you. If she is that way don't risk being wounded by her by empowering her.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

> Why would I pay for a divorce that I don't want?


Because the longer you wait the more the courts are going to side with her. WHY? Because you are setting precedence that this senario that you have right now is OK. Turnera is right. The time has come. You have waited, and waited, and waited while you allowed her to dibble/dabble all over the place. 

Do you think I wanted a divorce? NO. But, I dang made sure we had an agreement in place, in writing, and filed with the court at the time of physical separation. If you keep this path up, you are going to be sitting here a year from now going, "what happened?"

C'mon, Mark.


----------



## Cynthia

Dedicated2Her said:


> Because the longer you wait the more the courts are going to side with her. WHY? Because you are setting precedence that this senario that you have right now is OK. Turnera is right. The time has come. You have waited, and waited, and waited while you allowed her to dibble/dabble all over the place.
> 
> Do you think I wanted a divorce? NO. But, I dang made sure we had an agreement in place, in writing, and filed with the court at the time of physical separation. If you keep this path up, you are going to be sitting here a year from now going, "what happened?"
> 
> C'mon, Mark.


Unfortunately this may be the only way to save your relationship with your children. They need you to be a strong presence in their lives. They may miss out on that if you don't do something drastic. This is something to pray fervently about. The Bible does tell us that if your spouse wants to leave, them them. She has left.


----------



## GusPolinski

Mark72 said:


> I had a decent last 2 days. Maintaining my frame well. Passing fitness tests. Then - today - I get the text that she is looking for homes with her sister and BIL for her and the kids to move in... without me.
> 
> So - I haven't replied, but all the anxiety that I let out has come back in. I need to keep calm and realize that I am still ok. This is a blindside but I will be ok. It sucks though





Mark72 said:


> I called to talk to the kids, just like I always do at 7pm when I work late.
> She kept asking me about my respnse to the text. I told her it's a lot to think about and I will get back to her. She didnt like it but I got to talk to the kids...


Sounds like a sh*t test, IMO.


----------



## Mark72

GusPolinski said:


> Sounds like a sh*t test, IMO.


Yep - They continue. I'm passing most of them. Some with flying colors. Still improving, but I'm not the man I was 6 months ago. Much better now.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> Why would I pay for a divorce that I don't want?


Because burying your head in the sand is more expensive. 

I had to borrow money from my parents for the final push on my divorce. it can be done, if there's a will. And you certainly have reasons.


----------



## Mark72

I appreciate what you are saying and the advice you are giving. I don't want a divorce. I'm not going to move toward one as a bluff, it's too expensive. I don't have anyone from whom to borrow the money. She cannot afford one either. If it comes back to bite me, then anyone that disagrees can tell me they told me so. I still love this woman, and I see some of the old her coming back. Slowly, but still showing up. I have thought about it more than I have shared on this thread, and I see no benefit in paying money I don't have for a divorce if that is not my intention. 
Again, I appreciate everyone's input but I won't follow the divorce route right now.


----------



## turnera

Again, as a reminder, I was telling you to get a lawyer to maintain your right to your children, not for a divorce.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Again, as a reminder, I was telling you to get a lawyer to maintain your right to your children, not for a divorce.


I can only afford the free consultation... Got that already


----------



## turnera

Have you gone to the closest university to you that provides law school degrees? They will help you for free.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

Mark72 said:


> I appreciate what you are saying and the advice you are giving. I don't want a divorce. I'm not going to move toward one as a bluff, it's too expensive. I don't have anyone from whom to borrow the money. She cannot afford one either. If it comes back to bite me, then anyone that disagrees can tell me they told me so. I still love this woman, and I see some of the old her coming back. Slowly, but still showing up. I have thought about it more than I have shared on this thread, and I see no benefit in paying money I don't have for a divorce if that is not my intention.
> Again, I appreciate everyone's input but I won't follow the divorce route right now.


Then, get your kids more.....alone. She can't keep them from you.


----------



## Cynthia

Are you giving her money?


----------



## Dedicated2Her

And Mark, one more thing. I think it's very admirable what you are doing. I applaud you for fighting to keep a marriage together with someone like your wife. I did the same for two years, and I can tell you that there is no greater life lesson than what you are going through. You can choose to take it and run with it.....making it the one thing that starts you and sustains you into becoming the man you were created to be. When you are in the place you are in, you see little sparks of goodness in the other person because you want so badly to believe that person is "good" or really "the old her". In reality, she is now herself and the very idea of who you thought she was should have been shattered by now......

The person you loved.....doesn't exist. There is no "old her". There is only her. Can she change? Sure. But, it takes a long time, humbling, and pain to change a resentful/bitter heart....if it happens at all.

2 years into an in house separation, my ex still wanted a divorce. I had done EVERYTHING to make myself a better man and to show her love. I adjusted, adapted, and gave everything I could possibly give....and more. Watching the littany of issues that have arisen since the divorce (just absolute crazy), I came to understand why it didn't work or couldn't work. Broken people do broken things. 

The fact that she is "controlling" the kids situation falls on one person.....you. Only you can determine the role that you will have and have in their lives. I wish you the best of luck with this. Maybe she comes around. Regardless, it will not change anytime soon. It will be a slow process, if it happens at all.


----------



## Mark72

Yes, I am contributing. I ran the child support numbers through the calculator for my state and I am contributing slightly more than the calculator said my support level would be. And I keep track of all of it. Attorney told me that if we went to court they would go back to the date I moved out. My options were to put the money into escrow, to do what I am doing, or pay nothing. I think I made the best choice.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Yes, I am contributing. I ran the child support numbers through the calculator for my state and I am contributing slightly more than the calculator said my support level would be. And I keep track of all of it. Attorney told me that if we went to court they would go back to the date I moved out. My options were to put the money into escrow, to do what I am doing, or pay nothing. I think I made the best choice.


I think you are giving her way too much control over your life and the lives of your children.
Do you still go see the children at her parent's house? Do you ever take the children by yourself? Have the children been to your home?


----------



## Mark72

Right now is one of those days that I'm tired of fighting. Tired of trying. No triggers, I'm just having a really down time.


----------



## doubletrouble

These days come and go, Mark. It's like having to jump hurdles every dang day. And that gets tiring. I hope you're doing a little better today. 

It's hard to find anything that inspires you, anything that gives you hope and energy. I've been there. But you have to bring your "stubborn" out, and stand up and tell yourself that you deserve better, that nobody can get you down, that you are repsonsible for you and by gawd you're going to GET there, hell or high water. 

There's a fighter inside of you. Let him loose.


----------



## Mark72

Well I let my hampster do some talking this morning. Now I owe her an apology.


----------



## Mark72

Mark72 said:


> Well I let my hampster do some talking this morning. Now I owe her an apology.


I hate to apologize via text... but it was the only way I could.

It sucks that any work I do goes completely unnoticed (apparently) but any negatives and the target is my jugular


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> I hate to apologize via text... but it was the only way I could.
> 
> 
> 
> It sucks that any work I do goes completely unnoticed (apparently) but any negatives and the target is my jugular



Just shows what she thinks of you.


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> Just shows what she thinks of you.


Exactly.
I have been doing much better though. I see her changing along with me, but when the going gets tough she reverts back to her ways. Can't blame her too much, I still do too. But both are getting better...


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Exactly.
> I have been doing much better though. I see her changing along with me, but when the going gets tough she reverts back to her ways. Can't blame her too much, I still do too. But both are getting better...


It's good that you can see the progress. Keep on track. When you get off track, dust yourself off and get back up. You are doing fine.


----------



## Mark72

I'm getting impatient. When I see a week of improvment, I want it to hurry along. I need to stay in the same frame as when things are bad.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I'm getting impatient. When I see a week of improvment, I want it to hurry along. I need to stay in the same frame as when things are bad.


Right. Part of the goal is to have new ways of thinking and doing things. If you get things where you want them only to slip back into the old patterns, it will all be for nothing.
This is not only about you and your wife. This is about your family. It is important to raise your children up in truth and in healthy ways of dealing with their issues and their relationships.


----------



## Mark72

Again, I wish I could just flip the switch and think rationally when my emotions get all in the way


----------



## turnera

Try CBT.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Try CBT.


I'm lost.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Again, I wish I could just flip the switch and think rationally when my emotions get all in the way


There are various things you can do to resolve this. It doesn't happen overnight, but you can rewire your thinking, so you don't have that kind of response anymore. The problem is that it comes naturally to you now, but you can change that and make new habits.
#1 You address it and decide that you are not going to do that anymore.
#2 You reject the ideas and responses that you know are wrong and no longer want in your life.
#3 You replace those ideas and responses with the ones that are healthier and more productive. You make a plan of "this is what I'm going to do." You dwell on that and make it part of how you think and how you respond. You plan in advance and think about how you will respond to certain scenarios. You practice then when you are alone, so when it comes up you will be prepared with a new, healthier response.
#4 You walk in the new thinking and responding and they become new habits and patterns in your life. They become natural to you.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> There are various things you can do to resolve this. It doesn't happen overnight, but you can rewire your thinking, so you don't have that kind of response anymore. The problem is that it comes naturally to you now, but you can change that and make new habits.
> #1 You address it and decide that you are not going to do that anymore.
> #2 You reject the ideas and responses that you know are wrong and no longer want in your life.
> #3 You replace those ideas and responses with the ones that are healthier and more productive. You make a plan of "this is what I'm going to do." You dwell on that and make it part of how you think and how you respond. You plan in advance and think about how you will respond to certain scenarios. You practice then when you are alone, so when it comes up you will be prepared with a new, healthier response.
> #4 You walk in the new thinking and responding and they become new habits and patterns in your life. They become natural to you.


That is tough to do in the heat of the moment when I can't see past my feelings... I know it takes time and practice.


----------



## turnera

Mark72 said:


> I'm lost.





> Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is a psychotherapeutic approach that addresses dysfunctional emotions, maladaptive behaviors and cognitive processes and contents through a number of goal-oriented, explicit systematic procedures. The name refers to behavior therapy, cognitive therapy, and to therapy based upon a combination of basic behavioral and cognitive principles and research. Most therapists working with patients dealing with anxiety and depression use a blend of cognitive and behavioral therapy. This technique acknowledges that there may be behaviors that cannot be controlled through rational thought. CBT is "problem focused" (undertaken for specific problems) and "action oriented" (therapist tries to assist the client in selecting specific strategies to help address those problems).


Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically the most highly regarded way to reprogram yourself when you do things you don't want to do any more. No talking about your childhood, no talking about depression or what-ifs, just here, this is how we'll get you to stop doing this bad behavior.

That's how you stop reverting to bad behavior in the heat of the moment. Works wonders.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Cognitive behavioral therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Basically the most highly regarded way to reprogram yourself when you do things you don't want to do any more. No talking about your childhood, no talking about depression or what-ifs, just here, this is how we'll get you to stop doing this bad behavior.
> 
> That's how you stop reverting to bad behavior in the heat of the moment. Works wonders.


Oh yeah. Conrad asked if I was doing this.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> That is tough to do in the heat of the moment when I can't see past my feelings... I know it takes time and practice.


You don't do all that in the heat of the moment. The idea is to do it when you are away from the situation to prepare for the next time it happens. You make a plan in advance. Take a look at it again. You can do this tonight.
Sit down and think about what you are doing that you don't want to do. Write them down. This is the #1 step.
Look over the list. One by one reject them. You can say it aloud. This is not the way I want to do this. I reject that way of thinking and behaving. This is the #2 step.
Go over the list again and decide how you really want to think and how you really want to respond. Make a plan to do that. Tell yourself, "this is what I believe and this is how I will respond when it happens." 
Practice how you are going to respond and focus on your new way of thinking and believing about things. You can practice in front of a mirror if you want. Come up with scenarios that have happened and rethink how you would want to respond next time. Do this often, so it become ingrained in your attitude and way that you think about something. This is the #3 step.
When something happens, take a moment to breathe. Do not respond immediately. Think about what you have practiced and thought through. Do that. This is the #4 step.
It's all about preparing in advance.
As a Christian, you can do this with prayer and ask the Lord to help you with each step.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> Again, I wish I could just flip the switch and think rationally when my emotions get all in the way


Can you step away or go silent until your emotions calm to a better state before engaging?


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> Can you step away or go silent until your emotions calm to a better state before engaging?


Things smoothed out a little last night.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> Things smoothed out a little last night.


That's a good thing...


but in the future, can you step away/disengage and let the intensity pass before reengaging?

My H and I have to navigate intense emotions too and that is one of the tactics we will both use, is just stopping, going our separate ways until we are calmer.


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's a good thing...
> 
> 
> but in the future, can you step away/disengage and let the intensity pass before reengaging?
> 
> My H and I have to navigate intense emotions too and that is one of the tactics we will both use, is just stopping, going our separate ways until we are calmer.


I have to fight the urge to "fix it now".
I am getting better, really. I am learning better means of appearing calm, firm, and dispassionate. My insides are often the exact opposite.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I have to fight the urge to "fix it now".
> I am getting better, really. I am learning better means of appearing calm, firm, and dispassionate. My insides are often the exact opposite.


That's okay. You are gaining control over your responses. Eventually you can also gain control over your emotions.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> I have to fight the urge to "fix it now".
> I am getting better, really. I am learning better means of appearing calm, firm, and dispassionate. My insides are often the exact opposite.


Yes, eventually you will BE those things. I've walked the same road and just know... it WILL happen and when it does you will remember me saying that your reaction to it will be "ah, now that feels good."


----------



## doubletrouble

Not an ad, just a thought and recommendation from someone who's been through some of the things you're going through:

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Beyond-Your-Feelings-Controlling/dp/1455507296


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Not an ad, just a thought and recommendation from someone who's been through some of the things you're going through:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Living-Beyond-Your-Feelings-Controlling/dp/1455507296


I will download it. I have a couple others to finish first though


----------



## Mark72

Still on the rollercoaster.
She is either sweet to me, or all over me, or telling me she wants a dissolusion...
So she doesnt know what she wants. My plan is the same in all situations. She is starting to see that her temper tantrums are losing the effect they once had.


----------



## turnera

What plan is that? Take whatever she offers?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What are the reasons she sites for dissolution?


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> What plan is that? Take whatever she offers?


I'm sure you have a good reason for saying that. Do you mind if I ask what it is?


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> What are the reasons she sites for dissolution?


Non-reasonable ones. The porn/webcam sites from nearly 6 years ago, she says she can't trust me. Smoke and mirrors. All I can do is continue to reduce the codependency and continue to do the right thing. Talking solves nothing, as this point has been talked to death. She said that I am there at the house all by myself with no accountability. Not my choice. Not my problem, because I am focused on becomming more awesome of a man.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Interesting.

Good you are detaching from unreasonable.

Does she express what kind of "fix" she would like to see? She doesn't like the no accountability, but does she offer a solution or do you offer her one?


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Good you are detaching from unreasonable.
> 
> Does she express what kind of "fix" she would like to see? She doesn't like the no accountability, but does she offer a solution or do you offer her one?


No, she is trying to get a rise out of "Codependent Mark". That's who she knows. That's what she wants to see but at the same time, that's what caused her to lose respect and happy feelings for me. She is a spoiled brat princess. When she doesnt get her way, she throws a temper tantrum. It worked for 30 years with her parents, it worked for 9 years with me. It's not working as well with me anymore and so she is doing what she can to get that back. She wont admit it but she likes to see the newer, stronger Mark, but she is unsure about it all.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, when I began shifting out of codependent me with my H, he had no idea what to do with himself for a while. It forced him to get outside help because nothing of the old behavior worked anymore. And it took a good while before he started figuring it out. He started studying hard and long how to manage himself better.


----------



## Mark72

She really has an entitlement complex. Her mother really feeds it too.


----------



## farsidejunky

Why are you trying to save this?


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Non-reasonable ones. The porn/webcam sites from nearly 6 years ago, she says she can't trust me. Smoke and mirrors. All I can do is continue to reduce the codependency and continue to do the right thing. Talking solves nothing, as this point has been talked to death. She said that I am there at the house all by myself with no accountability. Not my choice. Not my problem, because I am focused on becomming more awesome of a man.


You are doing awesome. I am impressed that you are not backing down, but are continuing to grow and mature and not let her manipulate you.
Which is why she is acting like this:


Mark72 said:


> Still on the rollercoaster.
> She is either sweet to me, or all over me, or telling me she wants a dissolusion...
> So she doesnt know what she wants. My plan is the same in all situations. She is starting to see that her temper tantrums are losing the effect they once had.


She sounds like she doesn't know what to do with herself.
It doesn't matter who thinks you are crazy to want her back. You are not desperate for her anymore. You are your own man living your life as the man that you were created to be and she is not going to stop you. By the time this all comes to some sort of conclusion, you are going to be a much healthier man in all aspects of your life. Your children will be better off as well. Not divorcing her, but continuing on the path you are on as an honorable, self-controlled, maturing man, you really don't have a reason to divorce her at this point anyway. You are resolving your issues right where they are and not running away from facing them, dealing with them, and resolving them. This is having a tremendous impact on how your children will grow up. They will be much healthier and wiser than you were when you grew up. I see this with my own children and it is amazing and wonderful. God bless you, Mark. Praying for you today.


----------



## turnera

Mark72 said:


> I'm sure you have a good reason for saying that. Do you mind if I ask what it is?


You said you have a plan, but all in all, you haven't really DONE anything yet. So I want to know what your plan is. If you clarify it, we could help you with our experience to know if your plan has a chance of helping you or harming you.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> You said you have a plan, but all in all, you haven't really DONE anything yet. So I want to know what your plan is. If you clarify it, we could help you with our experience to know if your plan has a chance of helping you or harming you.


You don't see what his plan is?
He has clearly shown what his plan is and it is working out very well. He has taken charge of his own destiny rather than giving his wife control over his life.


----------



## farsidejunky

No, cynthia. He has taken charge of HIMSELF. Short term that is great.

However, he has not communicated his destiny. What is the long term goal? Are you going for R or D? What are you going to do with the new and improved you?


----------



## turnera

CynthiaDe said:


> You don't see what his plan is?
> He has clearly shown what his plan is and it is working out very well. He has taken charge of his own destiny rather than giving his wife control over his life.


Huh? He allowed himself to be run out of his wife's/MIL's house. And...that's about it, AFAIK. He's still there, waiting for her to let him come back. He's still seeing his kids on her terms. He's still letting his in-laws control everything. 

The only change I see is that he now says he likes it this way. Which is good, since he has no control over any of this anyway.


----------



## U.E. McGill

CynthiaDe said:


> You don't see what his plan is?
> 
> He has clearly shown what his plan is and it is working out very well. He has taken charge of his own destiny rather than giving his wife control over his life.



He's said many times he can't afford divorce. Although a quick google shows lots of legal aid in all states. 

Mark you should at least get a legal separation in case she goes out and racks up debt or gets sued. She shouldn't have the benefit of marriage without the cohabitation.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> You said you have a plan, but all in all, you haven't really DONE anything yet. So I want to know what your plan is. If you clarify it, we could help you with our experience to know if your plan has a chance of helping you or harming you.


I haven't? 
Really?


----------



## Mark72

farsidejunky said:


> No, cynthia. He has taken charge of HIMSELF. Short term that is great.
> 
> However, he has not communicated his destiny. What is the long term goal? Are you going for R or D? What are you going to do with the new and improved you?


I want to reconcile, but if it doesnt happen, I'll be a better man anyway. I am not going to file for divorce, that will be on her if she does it.

I don't want a divorce because I still love my wife. I've seen what we CAN be. We both came into the marriage with baggage. It took me 10 years to see what mine was, and I am working on it. I'm making progress. I am not cured, nor do I think I will be any time soon. But progress is being made. I'm ok with that.


----------



## Cynthia

How I see this is that Mark started out as a desperate man. The title of his thread is "desperate." We cannot expect someone in the weakened state that Mark was in to get all his ducks in a row and have a life plan when he couldn't even stand up to his wife on any level. I think that as Mark continues to grow and develop, he will be in a position where he can make plans for the next step, once he is strong enough.
I believe that if Mark continues on the path he is on, he will have a new set of goals and plans to reach those goals. One step at a time. This is not an emergency. He is seeing his children. The situation with his wife has improved in the sense that she is no longer dragging him around or manipulating him. He is acting on what he believes is right, rather than out of fear.
I think things have greatly improved and that Mark shows himself to be much stronger and calmer than he was.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Desperate*



Mark72 said:


> I want to reconcile, but if it doesnt happen, I'll be a better man anyway. I am not going to file for divorce, that will be on her if she does it.
> 
> I don't want a divorce because I still love my wife. I've seen what we CAN be. We both came into the marriage with baggage. It took me 10 years to see what mine was, and I am working on it. I'm making progress. I am not cured, nor do I think I will be any time soon. But progress is being made. I'm ok with that.


How long will you watch her not address her baggage before you decide to move on?

I am not asking this rhetorically but just asking if you have considered an answer to that question?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Desperate*



CynthiaDe said:


> How I see this is that Mark started out as a desperate man. The title of his thread is "desperate." We cannot expect someone in the weakened state that Mark was in to get all his ducks in a row and have a life plan when he couldn't even stand up to his wife on any level. I think that as Mark continues to grow and develop, he will be in a position where he can make plans for the next step, once he is strong enough.
> I believe that if Mark continues on the path he is on, he will have a new set of goals and plans to reach those goals. One step at a time. This is not an emergency. He is seeing his children. The situation with his wife has improved in the sense that she is no longer dragging him around or manipulating him. He is acting on what he believes is right, rather than out of fear.
> I think things have greatly improved and that Mark shows himself to be much stronger and calmer than he was.


I agree he is much stronger and sees things much more clearly. Now the question is what to do with that strength besides talking about how good it feels to be strong.

Or more concisely: That is truly awesome. Now what?


----------



## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> I agree he is much stronger and sees things much more clearly. Now the question is what to do with that strength besides talking about how good it feels to be strong.
> 
> Or more concisely: That is truly awesome. Now what?


I think Mark needs more time to become solid in his newfound freedom and strength before advancing. He is still working on this level and needs to become more proficient. I think rushing to the next step could send him backwards. That is my concern.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> How long will you watch her not address her baggage before you decide to move on?
> 
> I am not asking this rhetorically but just asking if you have considered an answer to that question?



This will naturally rise in him as he continues to walk a more emotionally independent path.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark, you sure are getting some great input here. Lucky guy.

Cynthia, farside, Blossom and Turnera, good on ya! You've gotten really deep into this thread and are giving some really good input. I can't add much of value. 

Mark, if anything, self-improvement as a result of self-reflection is the best motivator, once you have the will to change. And you have found that motivation. 

Your W has helped you more than she knows. But give yourself the credit for doing the work.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Great point DT


----------



## Mark72

Honestly, I don't know what my destiny is. Whether I want to admit it or not, she has to make the decision. I am not going to decide to divorce her any time soon.


----------



## farsidejunky

And that's right there mark is what I was afraid of for you. You are showing strength in many areas. But you need to be decisive. Communicate to her what you want and what you will put up with or not put up with. And then follow through. If you do not, you will be in limbo for lord knows how long.


----------



## Mark72

farsidejunky said:


> And that's right there mark is what I was afraid of for you. You are showing strength in many areas. But you need to be decisive. Communicate to her what you want and what you will put up with or not put up with. And then follow through. If you do not, you will be in limbo for lord knows how long.


Agreed. The problem is that I have been codependent for a long time. I thought I was being a nice guy, just like most codependents. I just started realizing what the problem was. I am working on it but it's going slower than I had hoped. I wish I could just flip the switch and become Charles Bronson. Just like working out, it takes work and time. Results arent immediate. But as long as I am making progress, I am good.
I am not ready to give an ultimatum. I dont have the confidence yet. When I do, I will be more likely to make it.


----------



## Cynthia

You'll get there, Mark. Keep moving forward. She will respond to the changes you are making and she will either settle down and learn respect or she will divorce you OR you will get to the place where you are ready to give her an ultimatum and go from there.
I still want to know how much time you have left until you finish with your degree. That would help us understand when you will be on a better footing with your time and hopefully be able to find a much higher paying job as well. How long will that be?


----------



## turnera

Can you at least spend more time away from them doing things that invigorate you, like working out or taking a class or volunteering?


----------



## Mark72

I still have a ways to go for any degree. I've taken classes sporadically.
I do get out and work out, go on bike rides, but no money to really go out and do anything else...


----------



## turnera

Volunteering is free.

But priceless.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I paid for my college classes with tuition reimbursement, so came out of college with no debt. fyi  what is your goal in school degree wise?


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I still have a ways to go for any degree. I've taken classes sporadically.
> I do get out and work out, go on bike rides, but no money to really go out and do anything else...


I thought both you and your wife were in school full time.
Do you have a plan to increase your earning potential? Money is a huge issue in your situation.


Blossom Leigh said:


> I paid for my college classes with tuition reimbursement, so came out of college with no debt. fyi  what is your goal in school degree wise?


What is tuition reimbursement? How does that work?


----------



## Cynthia

Do you have a journal where you keep track of what's going on, including exactly when, where, and for how long you spend time with your children? How you spoken to your wife about her withholding private time with the children?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Finding a company that offers tuition reimbursement is great. I was in the mortgage business and got a business degree paid for by my company based on my grades. I would pay for the class up front, work the class, grades come in and I would be reimbursed based on percentage for the grade. 

A = 100%
B = 80%
c = 70% 

Find the field you are interested in and look for a company that offers tuition reimbursement for that type of degree.


----------



## Cynthia

Blossom Leigh said:


> Finding a company that offers tuition reimbursement is great. I was in the mortgage business and got a business degree paid for by my company based on my grades. I would pay for the class up front, work the class, grades come in and I would be reimbursed based on percentage for the grade.
> 
> A = 100%
> B = 80%
> c = 70%
> 
> Find the field you are interested in and look for a company that offers tuition reimbursement for that type of degree.


Okay. I know how that works. I have a relative that is currently having her degree paid for by her employer. This is a great idea, Mark. Have you considered looking for a job with a company that would offer tuition reimbursement? That could change your life.


----------



## Mark72

I have tuition reimbursement but I made a couple poor choices and now I am on hold because of financial aid. I changed my major and my company stopped reimbursing. When this started this year, I dropped a few courses and now I have to repay them before I can sign up. They also have my transcripts on hold until I pay. So... I hope I get a large tax return


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I have tuition reimbursement but I made a couple poor choices and now I am on hold because of financial aid. I changed my major and my company stopped reimbursing. When this started this year, I dropped a few courses and now I have to repay them before I can sign up. They also have my transcripts on hold until I pay. So... I hope I get a large tax return


This is good. It sounds like you are working on a plan. :smthumbup:


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> This is good. It sounds like you are working on a plan. :smthumbup:


Hope isn't a strategy.
My plan is someone open ended, really. 
Work on me. Overcome codependence. Become outcome independent. Display high value. If she responds, be the best husband and father I can be. If she doesn't, become the best father I can be, and keep working on me - perhaps someone else will appreciate the new me if she is too far gone.

Yes, I prefer to keep my family - I have seen how things _CAN _be.


----------



## Cynthia

Are you planning to use your income tax refund to pay off or pay down on what you owe? Are you planning to get back into the program offered by your work when you get the debt paid off? These are plans. One step at time, you follow through and move forward.


----------



## doubletrouble

Mark72 said:


> *Hope isn't a strategy.*


:iagree:


----------



## Mark72

Well, the rollercoaster has continued. The ups have been better. The downs... eh... they come just as she seems to be opening up. She has been giving me fitness tests galore. Her kick has been the amount of money I am giving her for support. Funny thing is.. I eat boxed meals when I am home, she goes out to eat. She buys herself $200 pair of boots. She shops. Often. SHe goes out with the kids. Often. I have a few dollars to rub together every now and then. But my splurge is when I go to McDonalds and get 2 sausage biscuits with cheese for $2.60. 

So.. she gets mad and has explosive outbursts, then she pretends that nothing happend. About 2 weeks ago I let her know that her outbursts are not acceptable and if she wishes to have a discussion with me, she needs to speak to me like an adult. It has worked for the most part.
Fast forward to Sunday night - she was very much in the mood... she wanted to do things we hadnt done in years. Ok... I'm good with that....
Then, out of the blue, she asked me "Why do you love me?"

I fumbled with my words pretty badly. Then the demeanor changed and back to square one again.
So... I can see progress in myself, but I need to get a handle on my emotions because my feelings are in the toilet. I get lonely really bad. I feel a but stronger, but I also feel weaker.
Been getting a lot of help on MMSL too. Some familiar faces over there!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Good for you for calling her on the outburts :smthumbup:

My heart breaks on the rest of it, but still very proud of you for asking for that need to be met. Excellent!


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> Good for you for calling her on the outburts :smthumbup:
> 
> My heart breaks on the rest of it, but still very proud of you for asking for that need to be met. Excellent!


I've lived through worse...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> I've lived through worse...


I have no doubt...


----------



## turnera

Try doing without the sex, ok?


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Try doing without the sex, ok?


I did a sex moratorium. I said no sex until we are back on track.
It didnt change things too much. So... we broke it last week and Sunday.


----------



## turnera

And look what it got you.


----------



## Mark72

Nothing was different when we were abstaining from when we were having regular sex.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Nothing was different when we were abstaining from when we were having regular sex.


My main concern with this is another pregnancy.
Other than that, if it isn't making a difference otherwise, then I personally think it is healthy to be having sex with your wife, even under strained circumstances.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> My main concern with this is another pregnancy.
> Other than that, if it isn't making a difference otherwise, then I personally think it is healthy to be having sex with your wife, even under strained circumstances.


If she got pregnant, I would be moving to the CWI thread because I had a vasectomy after she delivered the youngest.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> If she got pregnant, I would be moving to the CWI thread because I had a vasectomy after she delivered the youngest.


That's good. As long as it isn't making things worse, it should be a good thing to have sex with your wife.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> That's good. As long as it isn't making things worse, it should be a good thing to have sex with your wife.


This last time sure was... It's the "pillow talk" afterwards that caused the problems


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> This last time sure was... It's the "pillow talk" afterwards that caused the problems


Do you know why you love her? That might be a good thing to contemplate. I'm sorry that you were unprepared for her question. It sounds like a difficult situation. Does she say she loves you? I wonder what her response would be if you were to ask her the same question. She may feel equally off guard.


----------



## U.E. McGill

Mark72 said:


> Then, out of the blue, she asked me "Why do you love me?"
> 
> 
> 
> I fumbled with my words pretty badly. Then the demeanor changed and back to square one again.
> !



This is a loyalty test not a shît test. Take it as a somewhat positive sign. She doesn't know what her place is and she's unsure. 

The next time she says this answer her with something absurd. "Well it's not for your stellar personality..."


----------



## Mark72

U.E. McGill said:


> This is a loyalty test not a shît test. Take it as a somewhat positive sign. She doesn't know what her place is and she's unsure.
> 
> The next time she says this answer her with something absurd. "Well it's not for your stellar personality..."


Agreed. I was just so used to the fitness tests, that the loyalty test took me by surprise.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Do you know why you love her? That might be a good thing to contemplate. I'm sorry that you were unprepared for her question. It sounds like a difficult situation. Does she say she loves you? I wonder what her response would be if you were to ask her the same question. She may feel equally off guard.


I know why I fell in love with her in the first place, but unsure of why I still do with everything that has happened. I think my codependent nature has subsided enough to say for certain that I'm not just clinging for dear life to the only thing I have.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I know why I fell in love with her in the first place, but unsure of why I still do with everything that has happened. I think my codependent nature has subsided enough to say for certain that I'm not just clinging for dear life to the only thing I have.


Do you think you love who she was, but not who she is?
Does she love you?


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Do you think you love who she was, but not who she is?


I think a lot has changed, but I see her acting one way toward me and then I see the "old her" again.


CynthiaDe said:


> Does she love you?


 She tells me no. But I've learned to watch what she does and not what she says.


----------



## Cynthia

She does not behave like she loves you. Love is patient and kind. She doesn't seem to be either.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

CynthiaDe said:


> She does not behave like she loves you. Love is patient and kind. She doesn't seem to be either.


You know, this is an excellent point. Looking for actions is great. Yet an accurate definition of love is definitely ensures accurate assessment of loving action vs non loving action.


----------



## Mark72

Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

In addition to shedding codependency, I need to keep these things in mind as well. Definition of good beta.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> Definition of good beta.


What do you mean?


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> What do you mean?


Beta - the gentle kind behaviours that make your partner feel loved, comfortable, and safe. Everyone is a little different, and so knowing which actions actually make them feel loved, and which ones just make you look sappy and needy is important. Also called "good beta".

"Bad Beta" or Squishy - Being mushy, indecisive, or needy.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> Beta - the gentle kind behaviours that make your partner feel loved, comfortable, and safe. Everyone is a little different, and so knowing which actions actually make them feel loved, and which ones just make you look sappy and needy is important. Also called "good beta". *aka compassionate and loving*
> 
> "Bad Beta" or Squishy - Being mushy, indecisive, or needy. *aka enabler*


:smthumbup:

Those are really important to separate  Great thoughts... I subscribe to the same.


----------



## Mark72

Alpha - the strong, sexy behaviours that make the opposite sex attracted to you. For men, those are all ways of confidence, humor, status, intelligence, wealth and leadership. For women it is flirtatiousness, making men chase them, physical fitness, and loyalty

Alpha / Beta Balance - Getting a sane, healthy sexual marriage is finding the right balance of your Alpha sexy behaviors and making your partner feel loved with the right Beta behaviors.


----------



## Mark72

Things I am learning on MMSL...


----------



## turnera

Mark72 said:


> Alpha / Beta Balance - Getting a sane, healthy sexual marriage is finding the right balance of your Alpha sexy behaviors and making your partner feel loved with the right Beta behaviors.


Precisely! And don't forget knowing when to say no. Women hate men who always agree to do what the women want, even if it's a mistake to do it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Backbone blended with compassion... spot on :smthumbup:


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Precisely! And don't forget knowing when to say no. Women hate men who always agree to do what the women want, even if it's a mistake to do it.


Yes!!!! I am working on that one too, as well as outcome independence.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Super healthy Mark


----------



## Cynthia

You seem to be doing great, Mark. You are learning and growing through this process.


----------



## Mark72

Yes. Like I said the biggest of all the challenges I face is to subdue my feelings. I'm still an emotional wreck on the inside even if I have learned to stop showing it and wearing it on a sleeve.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Yes. Like I said the biggest of all the challenges I face is to subdue my feelings. I'm still an emotional wreck on the inside even if I have learned to stop showing it and wearing it on a sleeve.


That's okay. In learning to control how you appear, you are learning to control your emotions. As long as you are not stuffing them, but are actually learning to control them, you are doing well.


----------



## Mark72

The rollercoaster continued.
Then yesterday, we came to a high point. I think there is breakthrough. She made chicken and dumplings, knowing that's my one of my favorites, but she didnt realize I worked late.
She invited me to come by after I got off. She is usually asleep by 9 but she stayed up. When I got there, I remembered that I left the redbox movie that my kids watched in her room. I went to get it, and she kinda woke up from a half sleep and gave me a sweet look. I went over and gave her a kiss on the forehead, and instead of wincing and wiping, she pulled me close and held me. I laid there with her for a bit and she grabbed my hand and we just cuddled.
That's the first time in years that's happened. Other things have slipped in here and there, but I think this is the light at the end of the tunnel. She's opening up again. I know she may freak out and go back into her shell before it's all said and done, but I'm guessing this is going to be a new beginning. I am stronger and she is seeing it. I don't get butthurt when she flies off the handle. I ignore her temper tantrums and don't allow myself to get sucked in. I do not leech on her. I have become better with money and taking care of the family's needs (not in-laws, but I have helped them too).
We still have a long way to go but the foundation is getting more solid. I'm pretty sure this is going to go well.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

So happy for you Mark! That is excellent!


----------



## Cynthia

I hope you are right, Mark. Stay the course. You are going in the right direction. Thanks for the update. It's nice to know how you are doing, especially when things are continuing to improve.


----------



## Mark72

Oh, the bad doesn't stay long. She is realizing that I am not going to buckle under her pressure. When she starts talking nonsense, I ignore it. No need to sink down to that level. It doesnt work on me anymore...
I may feel all depressed but I never show it. I am someone that she can follow.


----------



## Cynthia

You have a loving heart, Mark.


----------



## Mark72

I like the fact that I am shedding codependency. It feels good to have some freedom


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I like the fact that I am shedding codependency. It feels good to have some freedom


Have you read "Codependent No More"?


----------



## turnera

Mark72 said:


> I may feel all depressed but I never show it. I am someone that she can follow.


What are you depressed about?

And why can't you show it?


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Have you read "Codependent No More"?


I started it. It kept on describing the scenarios that I already understand. To quote the movie "As Good As It Gets" Jack Nicholson says, "I'm drowning here, and you're describing the water!"

It didn't really have any steps to take. I have had the best help from here and MMSL.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> What are you depressed about?
> 
> And why can't you show it?


Depressed that the separation still stands. Partially impatience.
Can't show it because that makes me look all the weaker.


----------



## turnera

Disagree. How can you grow closer together if you can't be honest with her? Tell her how it makes you feel. Continue changing. Teach her how to admire you.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Disagree. How can you grow closer together if you can't be honest with her? Tell her how it makes you feel. Continue changing. Teach her how to admire you.


To admire me, she has to be attracted to me and respect me.
Those things come first. She has seen the crybaby Mark all too much. That's what turned her off in the first place. It's not like I was too harsh and didn't show a soft side. ALL I showed was soft side. That's not attractive, no matter what the Hallmark channel movies say...
It's along the same lines of the boy that cried wolf. If I am depressed about something, and she doesn't care because she views me as weak, then sharing it will do nothing.


----------



## turnera

"Wife, it disappoints me that you didn't have enough faith in me, when I wasn't a harmful, abusive, or horrible husband. It worries me that you'll do it again. I'm pulling my weight here, and I appreciate you pulling yours. But I hope you understand my patience isn't infinite. I deserve a loving spouse just as much as you do."

There, you told her. And still looked macho YET understanding.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> "Wife, it disappoints me that you didn't have enough faith in me, when I wasn't a harmful, abusive, or horrible husband. It worries me that you'll do it again. I'm pulling my weight here, and I appreciate you pulling yours. But I hope you understand my patience isn't infinite. I deserve a loving spouse just as much as you do."
> 
> There, you told her. And still looked macho YET understanding.


But that's not what I'm feeling... What I feel when I say depressed is whiney crybaby crap. Really. 
What you said shows strength. I need to learn to control the wimpy emotions. I have taken the first step in not letting them control me.


----------



## turnera

Ah, ok, got it. So what are you doing differently in your life? Usually it takes real actions to make you feel differently about yourself. Exercising? Volunteering? Getting back in touch with old friends? Making new friends? Taking classes to improve your career? That's how you stop feeling sorry for yourself, typically.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Ah, ok, got it. So what are you doing differently in your life? Usually it takes real actions to make you feel differently about yourself. Exercising? Volunteering? Getting back in touch with old friends? Making new friends? Taking classes to improve your career? That's how you stop feeling sorry for yourself, typically.


Yes... and no...
I started doing those things.. but got into a funk this past couple months. Stopped exercising when it got cold and things went downhill. I found 12 of the 25 lbs I lost. Now I am getting back to it.


----------



## turnera

I'd prefer you pick other things than just exercising. IMO, it's a superficial action and a superficial change, that does nothing for your REAL self image, the way volunteering or furthering your career would do. Look at how NOT doing it affected your image? Look for other things.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> I'd prefer you pick other things than just exercising. IMO, it's a superficial action and a superficial change, that does nothing for your REAL self image, the way volunteering or furthering your career would do. Look at how NOT doing it affected your image? Look for other things.


Not just superficial, health reasons also.
Endorphines help you feel better. I have Heart disease. I have Diabetes.


----------



## turnera

No, I get that. But you discuss being in a funk. if you depend only on exercising to get out of it, it won't last.


----------



## Cynthia

Exercise can make a huge difference in how we feel. Personally, if I don't get my exercise in at least 3 days a week, I don't feel well.
Do you go to the gym to exercise? Had you considered taking an exercise class where you can be around other people?


----------



## turnera

agreed. But then he said he STOPPED exercising because of the weather - and his mood plummeted. So I'm suggesting he find other avenues for also helping to improve his well-being so he isn't just dependent on one thing. Plus, expanding his horizon can only strengthen his self worth, mood, and options. JMO.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> agreed. But then he said he STOPPED exercising because of the weather - and his mood plummeted. So I'm suggesting he find other avenues for also helping to improve his well-being so he isn't just dependent on one thing. Plus, expanding his horizon can only strengthen his self worth, mood, and options. JMO.


It is good to have more than one avenue, but they way you were posting sounded like you were saying that exercise wasn't going to do him any good.
Mark, You said you are a Christian. Are you attending church or involved in any small group? I know you don't have any money to do fun things, but spending time with others in a supportive, loving atmosphere sharing your faith is very uplifting. Also reading the Bible, meditating on it, and praying can help you lift depression.


----------



## turnera

CynthiaDe said:


> It is good to have more than one avenue, but they way you were posting sounded like you were saying that exercise wasn't going to do him any good.


No, I just said I'd rather see him do things than JUST exercising, since now that he's NOT exercising, he's finding himself in a funk. I think we're on the same page.


----------



## Cynthia

turnera said:


> No, I just said I'd rather see him do things than JUST exercising, since now that he's NOT exercising, he's finding himself in a funk. I think we're on the same page.


Sounds like it.


----------



## Mark72

I go to church and I am in a men's bible study that meets weekly. I keep in good contact with my pastor via text and email.


----------



## turnera

Do they go out and do things together? Maybe you could suggest it. Like going to clean up a fellow member's yard if they're disabled...something like that. Or go to a high school football game...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> I go to church and I am in a men's bible study that meets weekly. I keep in good contact with my pastor via text and email.


Solid choice 

Would you enjoy volunteering at an animal shelter or horse therapy barn?


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Do they go out and do things together? Maybe you could suggest it. Like going to clean up a fellow member's yard if they're disabled...something like that. Or go to a high school football game...


There are some outreach things we do as a church, but the diverse schedules in the small group have made it difficult to do anything like that. One of the guys is a wood carver/crafter. He set up a "Sawdust club" for Monday nights, showing the guys how to build a table, but I worked most Monday nights... so I couldnt go. I am starting to find some projects to do around the house, and I am trying some new hobbies.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It IS hard to get everyone's schedules together. We were just discussing that this past Sunday in our class. We are aiming at creating moments to connect.


----------



## turnera

My church's men's group gets together a lot to barbecue. They'll make tons and tons of it, hang out, drink beers, whoever wants to show up shows up. Pretty cool. And of course, we all get to share the meat.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

yum!!! Sounds like a great time Ms. T


----------



## turnera

Yeah, for the GUYS! Women aren't allowed, lol. Our women's group knits blankets...


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> Yeah, for the GUYS! Women aren't allowed, lol. Our women's group knits blankets...


You said whoever wants to show up, shows up...

Just sayin...


----------



## turnera

I wish. They literally say 'men only.' lol


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> I wish. They literally say 'men only.' lol


Yeah.. we don't let chicks in our group either. They have cooties.


----------



## Cynthia

It sounds like you are doing quite a few things to help keep you on track, but need to get back into exercising and eating really well. Plus get your mind renewed, so you are not feeling so depressed. Have you used the 3x5 cards?


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> It sounds like you are doing quite a few things to help keep you on track, but need to get back into exercising and eating really well. Plus get your mind renewed, so you are not feeling so depressed. Have you used the 3x5 cards?


Uhhh....
Wut?


----------



## Cynthia

I think I shared this with you months ago. There is a method of refocusing your thoughts using 3x5 cards that is effective and helpful for all sorts of things from depression to anger. Here is a link that explains how to use them: How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World


----------



## Blossom Leigh

turnera said:


> Yeah, for the GUYS! Women aren't allowed, lol. Our women's group knits blankets...


Awwww dang... I thought it was a couples thing. I have enough tomboy and enough girly in me to hang with either.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> I think I shared this with you months ago. There is a method of refocusing your thoughts using 3x5 cards that is effective and helpful for all sorts of things from depression to anger. Here is a link that explains how to use them: How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World


I'ms orry that I forgot. I have had a couple cards that we use in the mens group. I had about 10 but have put them in my bible


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Desperate*



Mark72 said:


> I'ms orry that I forgot. I have had a couple cards that we use in the mens group. I had about 10 but have put them in my bible


Which if you were reading daily....


----------



## Mark72

farsidejunky said:


> Which if you were reading daily....


I use the Bible app...


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I'ms orry that I forgot. I have had a couple cards that we use in the mens group. I had about 10 but have put them in my bible


No need to apologize. I would tend to remember since I've being using them for years and have shared them with others who have had success with them.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> I use the Bible app...


I love that and two of my favorite teachers are John McArthur and Alistair Begg. I have their apps on my phone too along with Spurgeons sermons.


----------



## GusPolinski

How goes it, Mark?


----------



## ConanHub

Blossom Leigh said:


> I love that and two of my favorite teachers are John McArthur and Alistair Begg. I have their apps on my phone too along with Spurgeons sermons.


You and Mrs. Conan have a lot in common.&#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

GusPolinski said:


> How goes it, Mark?


Feeling much stronger. Still have lots of work to do to be Captain, but there's no turning back now. I am more confident. When she blows up, I handle things much better. I still struggle with the inconsistency when she starts to open up, but I'm getting there. 

Still in separate houses. Still no plans for R. But I'm ok where I am now. There are times of sadness and lonliness but I'm ok.


----------



## GusPolinski

Mark72 said:


> Feeling much stronger. Still have lots of work to do to be Captain, but there's no turning back now. I am more confident. When she blows up, I handle things much better. I still struggle with the inconsistency when she starts to open up, but I'm getting there.
> 
> *Still in separate houses. Still no plans for R.* But I'm ok where I am now. There are times of sadness and lonliness but I'm ok.




Remind us... how long have the two of you been living apart now?


----------



## Mark72

GusPolinski said:


> Remind us... how long have the two of you been living apart now?


June I moved out. It was January last year that she told me that she doesnt love me anymore.
January 22 will be our 10th wedding anniversary.


----------



## GusPolinski

Mark72 said:


> June I moved out. It was January last year that *she told me that she doesnt love me anymore.*
> January 22 will be our 10th wedding anniversary.


Have either of you said it lately?


----------



## Mark72

GusPolinski said:


> Have either of you said it lately?


I do from time to time.
She hasn't in over a year except once she accidentally said "love you too"


----------



## FormerVictim

Mark72 said:


> I do from time to time.
> She hasn't in over a year except once she accidentally said "love you too"


Stop saying it.


----------



## GusPolinski

Mark72 said:


> I do from time to time.
> She hasn't in over a year except once she accidentally said "love you too"


Was this recently? Did it come off as habit or did she appear to mean it?

Do you feel that -- when you say it and she doesn't -- she's suppressing it?


----------



## Mark72

GusPolinski said:


> Was this recently? Did it come off as habit or did she appear to mean it?
> 
> Do you feel that -- when you say it and she doesn't -- she's suppressing it?


It was out of habit that she said it, very soon after she dropped the bomb a year ago.
I've learned to pay attention to her actions rather than her words, or lack thereof.
She wants me to man up. Not be a douche. I'm getting there


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> It was out of habit that she said it, very soon after she dropped the bomb a year ago.
> I've learned to pay attention to her actions rather than her words, or lack thereof.
> She wants me to man up. Not be a douche. I'm getting there


Yes, you are getting there. It is always encouraging to see your posts showing that you are staying the course. Keep growing and learning. Even if your wife never comes around to recognize how good she's got it with you, you will be a happier person due to your personal growth and development. And your children will be better off for it too.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Do you and your wife date or anything like that? Would she be open to it?


----------



## Mark72

Blossom Leigh said:


> Do you and your wife date or anything like that? Would she be open to it?


It's been a while. We've taken the kids out but nothing just she and I in months.


Our 10 year anniversary is a week from tomorrow...


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> It's been a while. We've taken the kids out but nothing just she and I in months.
> 
> 
> Our 10 year anniversary is a week from tomorrow...


Are you going to take her out, let it pass without mention, or ...?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

If you asked her would she accept?


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Are you going to take her out, let it pass without mention, or ...?





Blossom Leigh said:


> If you asked her would she accept?


I will see how things go tomorrow when I get there after work.
I'll touch base


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I will see how things go tomorrow when I get there after work.
> I'll touch base


Sometimes playing it by ear can be the best course.


----------



## Mark72

Yep... Learning to respond (or be quiet) rather than react.
Learning when to spot fitness tests and how to handle them.
Still struggling when things are so-so.
Things havent been GOOD in a while...a


----------



## Mark72

I haven't been updating on here much, I've mainly been on the MMSL vanilla forum thread. The writing is on the wall, but we're still in separate houses. We are looking at houses. Still no "I love you" but honestly, the ONE thing that she is concerned about is finances. We are pretty close to the breakthrough. 
I am looking into supplimental income, trying the UBER driver thing. We'll see if it's worth it or not. I am moving out of my dad's house by May 1. Don't know where I am going yet. I have some options.


----------



## turnera

I know someone who did Uber and stopped, because they said his car was too old and he'd have to get a new car, lol.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> I know someone who did Uber and stopped, because they said his car was too old and he'd have to get a new car, lol.


Mine is good by 2 years 

I'm happier about the upward trend..


----------



## GusPolinski

Mark72 said:


> I haven't been updating on here much, I've mainly been on the MMSL vanilla forum thread. The writing is on the wall, but we're still in separate houses. We are looking at houses. Still no "I love you" but honestly, the ONE thing that she is concerned about is finances. We are pretty close to the breakthrough.
> *I am looking into supplimental income, trying the UBER driver thing. *We'll see if it's worth it or not. I am moving out of my dad's house by May 1. Don't know where I am going yet. I have some options.


Dude. Be careful w/ that. Maybe think about getting a CHL.

People be crazy.


----------



## Mark72

GusPolinski said:


> Dude. Be careful w/ that. Maybe think about getting a CHL.
> 
> People be crazy.


I can't afford a pistol at the moment.


----------



## bandit.45

Mark72 said:


> I haven't been updating on here much, I've mainly been on the MMSL vanilla forum thread. The writing is on the wall, but we're still in separate houses. We are looking at houses. Still no "I love you" but honestly, the ONE thing that she is concerned about is finances. We are pretty close to the breakthrough.
> I am looking into supplimental income, trying the UBER driver thing. We'll see if it's worth it or not. I am moving out of my dad's house by May 1. Don't know where I am going yet. I have some options.


I have a family member who does that Uber driving and the kid makes bank.


----------



## Mark72

bandit.45 said:


> I have a family member who does that Uber driving and the kid makes bank.


If you are available at all the peak times, I can see it. I have still to get registered. It's a slow process.


----------



## doubletrouble

Good luck, Mark. Keep moving forward.


----------



## Mark72

doubletrouble said:


> Good luck, Mark. Keep moving forward.


Thankyou


----------



## Mark72

Hitting a brick wall.
No progress. But I'm still working on me, moving forward whether she follows or not


----------



## turnera

?


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Hitting a brick wall.
> No progress. But I'm still working on me, moving forward whether she follows or not


Are you making personal progress? This may or may not help your marriage, but it will always help you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Uh oh... Are you ok? What happened?


----------



## Mark72

I'll repeat my last few status updates from the other forum...


----------



## Mark72

(Speaking about the upcoming Disney trip, and me taking the lead in the planning)
The thing is.. she had the whole thing planned out - tickets bought - before I was even on board with going. That's why I will give it my best shot. I don't know of anything I can do to lead when it's all been done. The rooms were reserved, the days planned... all before I went along. My name was just added and extra fees paid.
If I am missing something, PLEASE let me know because I really have deer-in-headlights going on right now. 
The only thing I can think of is telling her I want to do XYZ instead of ZYX. 
That, and, going to the beach...
I'm thinking the best plan is on the last day going to the beach for a couple hours rather than going straight home.
*******************************************
Last night was a first for me. I stood up to FIL.
Yes, he is 12 years older than me. But he is a hulk and quite intimidating.
Wife is a nurse and her work took all the nurses out for dinner since it's nurse appreciation week. 
MIL was not doing too well. Her RA was acting up so I just took the kids upstairs to watch a movie. Daughter didn't like my movie selection so she hid the DVD. She bold face lied to me about it. I asked if anyone had moved the movie, they didnt, so I told her to go get the movie now. 
She did. I told her that she was going to bed with no movie and no toys. 
She screamed. As always. (I am not sure how to handle that effectively yet)
FIL came upstairs. I didnt realize it but he took her downstairs to sit and watch TV with him.
When I went downstairs, I asked her who told her to leave her room. He told me he did, but he had a really good reason and he would tell me later.
I was angry but I waited until wife got home (she's still pissy as hell with me) and I went downstairs and asked him about it. He said because MIL was feeling so bad he wanted peace in the house. I told him that my concern is that we are teaching my daughter that all she has to do is scream and she gets her way, and that it's never going to get better, and that he was undermining my authority as her father.
He said he took her downstairs and told her what she did was wrong and she needed to apologize for it. I said I disagree, he said just go home, I want to watch my show.

Now I see the pattern. My wife does the exact same thing. When things don't go her way, she throws a temper tantrum. I let it work on me for years, and I am having a hell of a time teaching her that it doesn't work anymore.
***************************************
My hell is this.
She is comfortable where she is now, and is ok with staying there.
I have to make living with me more attractive than the security she has there.
I am under a microscope. Even a PERCEIVED fail on my part adds to her current comfort.
This is gonna be tough, but I am getting awesome-er daily despite my financial issues.
************************************
She had been making great strides. Showing some affection here and there, doing nice things, no explosive outbursts, and mood swings have been low.
The past week and a half it's been like near square one conditions. Cold, reserved, rude. I have to consider that I may have been coasting, or maybe not. I need to take "my doing" off the table and make sure I do nothing but DHV when I am there.
It seems to coincide with me leaving my dad's place and moving in with my aunt.
Maybe the fact that I am not signing a one year lease and getting my own place is showing her more of "Mark can't provide for his family". 
MIL shared the other day that wife told her that I am never going to change and I have no "get up and go". She feels that she works and takes home more money, provides for the kids, and has enough left over to buy herself things. I don't.
On the positive note, I am trying to move forward on the career bit, and although it may not provide more money right now, I can make more money down the road. I just dont see myself being in t his position a year or two from now - her living with her parents, me coming to visit my family. I'm not ok with that. I know I still don't want a divorce, but I also don't want to live like this. 
I want some hobbies that she would join me in, but I need some hobbies and friends away from her. I'm not eating out, I'm only paying bills and buying food/necessities for the kids, but I'm still broke all the time. I don't like this at all. Uber was kinda put on hold becuase I've got to get an inspection and it's an expense. Next paycheck will have a bonus, I'll get it checked out then,. and when WDW vacation is over, I should be clear to drive.

I think I also need to stop staying over after the kids go to bed. If she is being cold, I don't want to be there. I can find better things to do, like work out, read my bible, and even watch the ceiling form new cracks, than spend time with a cold woman that shows no love/affection/care to me. 
***************************************
Our status seems to be going slowly toward square one. The coldness/indifference has been here a lot. I see that she is pulling the grudges and emotional outbursts back out. I've been ignoring them, and the last two visits have been issue free, but still lukewarm. Last night, after the kids were in bed, I told her that I want to lead our family to the place where we are living in our own house again, but I have seen no progress. Then I asked her what that day looks like to her and feels like to her. She said that it was too late to get into a big talk like that. I said that she can think about it over the next few days when I work nights, but to come up with some tangible things that we can check off to know that we are there.
After I said that, she started getting snippy, so I said I'll see you Thursday, I love you. Then I left.
Now, Thursday is when I am next going to work early and go see them. I am thinking that there are going to be a couple possibilities.
1 - she gives me a half hearted "I dont know - either she didnt have time or she forgot". This would be a likely scenario. I know she has some idea in her head, but I sense a **** test coming.
2 - She gives me a checklist "you make more money, not so clingy/needy, etc" - I don't see this as a likely answer. She may surprise me and follow my lead, but knowing her, this is probably not the most likely outcome.
3 - She gets cold/*****y/combattive. Another likely scenario - perhaps throwing in "I dont see a clear picture of us being back together" or even back to square one of "I dont want to be with you" - Not likely to the latter extreme, but the **** test is in her arsenal.

Any tips on preparing for this? OI? Should I bring it up? 
I don't think I was wrong to bring this up, and I think I did it from a position of strength. Any comments on that approach would also be appreciated.


----------



## turnera

Warning, 2x4 coming:


Mark72 said:


> Any tips on preparing for this? OI? Should I bring it up?
> I don't think I was wrong to bring this up, and I think I did it from a position of strength.


:rofl:

You're kidding, right?

NOwhere in that whole scenario did you show ANY strength except telling your daughter to go to bed for throwing a tantrum. Even when you tried to stand up to your FIL, you ended up backing down.

And your wife?

Hates your guts. Only puts up with you because it's cheaper to let you keep coming around like a creeper than to get a divorce.

Sorry, but that was painful to read. 

And btw, you're right. She DOESN'T respect you because you have not lived up to the expected standards of how men support their families. I'm sorry, but that's how society, how sociology, is. Men are expected to be the stronger, more successful of the marriage. And women grow to feel disdain for, lose respect for, men who don't. They also don't admire men who keep hanging around them when the women clearly don't want them around. And that's where you are.

I wish you well. I just wish you could see what REALLY needs to be changed.


----------



## Cynthia

Stop asking her about your relationship - period. That will make things worse.
When did you move in with your aunt?
Are they still stopping you from taking the children on your own?
Of course your wife has more money than you. She is living rent free and using the money you give her to help support the children. How much do you give her monthly? You might want to stop giving her anything and save that money towards an attorney, so you can get a court order to have visitation without interference.


----------



## Dedicated2Her

I've said this before (a long time ago). You need to deal her a serious dose of reality. It's absurd.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What was the reason for moving from your parents house to your aunts house?


----------



## Mark72

I moved in from my fathers house because he told me I had to. I didnt get an apartment because A - can't afford it, and B - I'm thinking long term. The good news is that with this new job, the potential is there to make a lot more money. Also, it will be closer to home and have more steady hours, so I can look at a part time job on the side as well.


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> I moved in from my fathers house because he told me I had to. I didnt get an apartment because A - can't afford it, and B - I'm thinking long term. The good news is that with this new job, the potential is there to make a lot more money. Also, it will be closer to home and have more steady hours, so I can look at a part time job on the side as well.


Not sure I understand. Are you saying that you moved into your father's house? You did this because your father told you to?
Is that right?


----------



## Mark72

We moved out of our home in November 2013. We moved in with her parents. I moved out of her parents' house at her request June 2014 and into my father's house, where my brother still stays. My father asked me to move out of his house May this year, I am now staying with my aunt.

I have a new job within the same company that I am starting in 3 weeks. Much better opportunity


----------



## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> We moved out of our home in November 2013. We moved in with her parents. I moved out of her parents' house at her request June 2014 and into my father's house, where my brother still stays. My father asked me to move out of his house May this year, I am now staying with my aunt.
> 
> I have a new job within the same company that I am starting in 3 weeks. Much better opportunity


Why did your father ask you to leave?
Congratulations on the new job!


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Why did your father ask you to leave?
> Congratulations on the new job!


He feels that he could sell the house more easily with me not being there.
My brother is still there, by the way... Weird family dynamics.

Thank you also!


----------



## turnera

I think you'll find your life improves vastly once you are able to stop depending on other people, once you FIND a way to take care of you and your stuff on your own. You and your wife seem to have a history of letting others carry your weight - no offense - and I think once you start believing in yourself and LOOKING for ways to support yourself, a lot of your problems will go away.


----------



## Mark72

turnera said:


> I think you'll find your life improves vastly once you are able to stop depending on other people, once you FIND a way to take care of you and your stuff on your own. You and your wife seem to have a history of letting others carry your weight - no offense - and I think once you start believing in yourself and LOOKING for ways to support yourself, a lot of your problems will go away.


That's what the new job is all about. :grin2:

Again, I post more in MMSL than here. Lots more 2X4's from there because I have just been posting more there. Honestly I've noticed change on my end. Some of the actions at least. Mentally, I'm still scared to death, but I am acting in confidence... more like a fake it til you make it. I got the new job, I have applied for part time side work. I actually start the new job on 7/14...

It's a big improvement. I will be debt free other than a $4500 car loan which will be paid off in a year and a half, and student loans.

There will be enough income for me to get a small apartment by myself, or for US to get a house in a few months


----------



## Mark72

Rather than ETA, I'll give a new post.

Part of my recovery, or MAP using MMSL terms, is being responsible. I've had irresponsibility issues forever. I am starting to change that. I've quit spending money in lieu of paying bills, hoping to "catch up" later. I'm paying bills, child care, and tithes first, setting back for gas, and if there is anything left, I may take the kids out somewhere. I'll start disciplining myself to put money into savings. Little bits at a time, just like working out.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I think you'll find that women find self sufficiency attractive. It's hard to respect a husband that is living with your parents or his parents or his aunt or whoever else. 

Just keep working on you and let your wife come to you. And accept that fact that this might not happen, so make plans to move on with your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mark72

lifeistooshort said:


> I think you'll find that women find self sufficiency attractive. It's hard to respect a husband that is living with your parents or his parents or his aunt or whoever else.
> 
> Just keep working on you and let your wife come to you. And accept that fact that this might not happen, so make plans to move on with your life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm pretty cerain it is going to work out. I have prepared myself for the fact that it may not, and have come to terms with that. For the most part, my STAY plan is the same as my LEAVE plan. 
Up until attorneys get involved...

But since the news of the new job, things have been slowly coming along. Little steps, and slower than I'd like, but I'm taking it in stride and focusing mainly on the kids.


----------



## Cynthia

Every day is a new day and every step you make forward you are better off than you were before.


----------



## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Every day is a new day and every step you make forward you are better off than you were before.


I'm all about ODAAT


----------



## Betrayedone

This is the only thread that I have read in it's entirety since I have been on this site that is TOTALLY A HOPELESS CASE and I actually have no hope of a possible positive outcome because the poster refuses to help himself and not exert one iota of effort in order to not be a total doormat. EVERYONE in this guy's life pushes his buttons and he chooses to remain a victim. I am totally into offering everyone here the help they need but they need to be able and willing to help themselves. This case is hopeless. Sorry......


----------



## Mark72

Thanks for your input, @Betrayedone


----------



## Cynthia

Ugh. Keep moving forward, Mark. The new job is some good progress.


----------



## Mark72

I am, @CynthiaDe
Thanks


----------



## Mark72

Long time no post.
Things stayed stagnant for a long time. The new job is better, but all and all it's a pay cut. 
In September I broke my shoulder in a bicycle accident. It never healed correctly - I had surgery 5 weeks ago to repair it.

I came to a breaking point last a couple weeks ago. I found out that for her birthday, she had (weeks in advance) planned a night out with her friends (some male) and rented a hotel for the night.
I told her I was not ok with that. SHe deflected, I handled it very well. I also gave her an honest ultimatum - get into the marriage or go file. Either way, make a choice and live with the consequences. I was 100% willing to say, and I was 100% ready to let her go.
She chose to stay. It got better. A lot better. Quickly. I ended up staying in the hotel with her that night. She has told me she loves me and demonstrated it. This is a short version, but I'm happy that I was able to make the changes in myself. Thank you to everyone that has hung with me through this. It's not over, I have to maintain the course and still grow. But I'm in a much better place now.


----------



## Mark72

I looked back on this thread that started 4 years ago... It's amazing how much change there was, but it took me actually being confident enough with myself that I was willing to let it go but not compromising my core.


----------



## Tron

You've come a long way.

Just curious though, what was her original plan for the room?

And have you guys started making plans to move into your own place?


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## Cynthia

Thanks for the update, Mark. You seem to be a lot stronger and doing better. Glad to hear it.


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## farsidejunky

Mark, while I think your choice to her was good, and I am glad things are better, it has only been a couple of weeks.

That said, maintain your resolve, and measure your progress not by the day to day, but by the overall trajectory.

Watch what she does, not what she says.

Remember that no matter what happens you will be okay (outcome independence).

Prayers for you and your family, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Mark72

@Tron, the original plan was for her and a female coworker friend to stay there. The coworker's bags were still there, she just went home. @farsidejunky I am 75% watching actions and 25% listening. The first week was more lip service with little action. Since then she has been showing more rather than speaking more. I am still OI - hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst.


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## farsidejunky

Mark72 said:


> @Tron, the original plan was for her and a female coworker friend to stay there. The coworker's bags were still there, she just went home.
> @farsidejunky I am 75% watching actions and 25% listening. The first week was more lip service with little action. Since then she has been showing more rather than speaking more. I am still OI - hoping for the best, but prepared for the worst.


I think I recall asking you this before, but have you clearly identified your deal breakers?

The reason I ask is because this has been going on for a long time.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tron

Mark,

I have to commend you on your patience. You and Conrad really do have something there most of us don't.

Co-parenting, having sex and filing joint tax returns might seem like enough to you, but I just don't know. It still isn't much of a marriage. You have been working on yourself a long time and have made some amazing progress over the past year. The living with the parents thing needs to stop. You guys need to get your own place and get to work on making this marriage work.

She says she wants to work on the marriage now, but what does that mean? Is it the current holding pattern while dating or what?


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## Mark72

farsidejunky said:


> I think I recall asking you this before, but have you clearly identified your deal breakers?
> 
> The reason I ask is because this has been going on for a long time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Deal-breakers are well known. I have mentioned 3 things that are important to me and she has rapidly responded. These are things that for years she has avoided. Again, I know it's really fresh, but I am optimistic. I'm not blindly running into oblivion, my moves are calculated and conservative.




Tron said:


> Mark,
> 
> I have to commend you on your patience. You and Conrad really do have something there most of us don't.
> 
> Co-parenting, having sex and filing joint tax returns might seem like enough to you, but I just don't know. It still isn't much of a marriage. You have been working on yourself a long time and have made some amazing progress over the past year. The living with the parents thing needs to stop. You guys need to get your own place and get to work on making this marriage work.
> 
> She says she wants to work on the marriage now, but what does that mean? Is it the current holding pattern while dating or what?


Thanks, I consider Conrad a good friend. He has helped me out a ton through this. She really wants to buy a place but it may not be feasible right now. We may have to rent for a year. We need to discuss the plan, and I think this weekend is the time to do it.


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## ReturntoZero

Mark72 said:


> Long time no post.
> Things stayed stagnant for a long time. The new job is better, but all and all it's a pay cut.
> In September I broke my shoulder in a bicycle accident. It never healed correctly - I had surgery 5 weeks ago to repair it.
> 
> I came to a breaking point last a couple weeks ago. I found out that for her birthday, she had (weeks in advance) planned a night out with her friends (some male) and rented a hotel for the night.
> I told her I was not ok with that. SHe deflected, I handled it very well. I also gave her an honest ultimatum - get into the marriage or go file. Either way, make a choice and live with the consequences. I was 100% willing to say, and I was 100% ready to let her go.
> She chose to stay. It got better. A lot better. Quickly. I ended up staying in the hotel with her that night. She has told me she loves me and demonstrated it. This is a short version, but I'm happy that I was able to make the changes in myself. Thank you to everyone that has hung with me through this. It's not over, I have to maintain the course and still grow. But I'm in a much better place now.


It's worth noting that patience IS indeed a virtue - but ONLY when you are on the RIGHT ROAD.

Think about it.

"He who hesitates is lost" is also true.

Sometimes, before we discover our masculine mettle, many of us confuse hesitation with patience.

They are NOT the same.

Reading this thread... it's clear that Mark's wife is a disordered spouse and that Mark was codependent.

It takes a good long while to behave your way out of a bad situation when you've dug the hole this deep.

But, it can be done "One Transaction At a Time"

It's time to live better Mark. Think about it. What an opportunity.


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## Tron

ReturntoZero said:


> Reading this thread... it's clear that Mark's wife is a disordered spouse and that Mark was codependent.
> 
> It takes a good long while to behave your way out of a bad situation when you've dug the hole this deep.
> 
> But, it can be done "One Transaction At a Time"
> 
> It's time to live better Mark. Think about it. What an opportunity.


Amen, brother!

Mark, I would advise you to get Conrad on the line and work on a plan together. Lead yourself and her out of this wilderness.


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## Tron

And if you think you need to rent first...well then figure out a way to make her think it was her idea... >


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## Betrayedone

Oh Oh........Here we go again.........Is that daylight at the far side of that long tunnel or an oncoming train?


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## Mark72

Betrayedone said:


> Oh Oh........Here we go again.........Is that daylight at the far side of that long tunnel or an oncoming train?


Daylight, because no matter if this is real or not, I will be in a better place and no longer in the bad marriage from the last 11 years. We are either starting over or ending it. Either way it's daylight. I prefer starting over but I'll take ending it over more limbo.


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## Blossom Leigh

Mark72 said:


> Daylight, because no matter if this is real or not, I will be in a better place and no longer in the bad marriage from the last 11 years. We are either starting over or ending it. Either way it's daylight. I prefer starting over but I'll take ending it over more limbo.


Yep, stay different or leave. Sounds healthy to me Mark. Happy for you.


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## JohnA

MMSL ? Link please.


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## Chuck71

With children in mind.... you do what is best for you. To he!! with opposite pond family members...

You didn't marry THEM. Course when you marry one, you marry the family LOL

Boundaries..... when are they good.... when you get a charge from enforcing them.....

I just perused your thread so yeah, much missed. 

My pop had some bad points, some good.... one thing he taught me was when someone challenges you...

You call them on it, immediately. "Show me mudderf'er" He pulled that on me in my teens. I showed him.

And of all people in the universe, he respected it and changed. Not much.... but for him, moved mountains.

Had he not..... pure 110% hatred..... who wins? But he did..... you still have to set boundaries and challenge

even the ones you love dearly...... it is critical. When boundaries are healthy... they are positives.

When they are not...... well they aren't "positive"


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## Mark72

Looks like the light was a train. It's pretty much over. I'm back to looking for a second or better job to get a place on my own. 
I'm at peace. I don't LIKE it, but I'm ok with it.


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## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Looks like the light was a train. It's pretty much over. I'm back to looking for a second or better job to get a place on my own.
> I'm at peace. I don't LIKE it, but I'm ok with it.


Hopefully you will look back on this and realize that you are better off without her. I hope you secure your relationship with your children.


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## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Hopefully you will look back on this and realize that you are better off without her. I hope you secure your relationship with your children.


Absolutely I am.


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## Tron

I was trying to follow things on the other site and have been wondering how things were going.

I am glad that you have found some resolution. Make sure to secure what you can out of the divorce so that you are set up in a good place to have and keep the kids for your time. If that means alimony or CS to you, then that's what it means. Both of you have a right to your kids.


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## Mark72

Tron said:


> I was trying to follow things on the other site and have been wondering how things were going.
> 
> I am glad that you have found some resolution. Make sure to secure what you can out of the divorce so that you are set up in a good place to have and keep the kids for your time. If that means alimony or CS to you, then that's what it means. Both of you have a right to your kids.


#1 priority is to increase income. I have to have a place suitable for the kids to come over.
I can't afford that with my current debt load.

I also need to be able to afford an attorney.


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## Chuck71

Mark72 said:


> #1 priority is to increase income. I have to have a place suitable for the kids to come over.
> I can't afford that with my current debt load.
> 
> I also need to be able to afford an attorney.


Really hate to hear this. You carried the pyramids of Egypt on your shoulders.

But you gave 110%.... no one can say "what if"


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## Tron

Why is the debt load not "our current debt load"?


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## Mark72

Tron said:


> Why is the debt load not "our current debt load"?


We've been separated for nearly 3 years. 
Her debts are all in her name.
Mine are in my name. She pays her crap, I pay mine.


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## Chuck71

So nothing in joint names?


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## Mark72

Chuck71 said:


> So nothing in joint names?


My car is in both our names but I pay it. The cell phone bill has both of our phones on it. She pays her part and I pay mine. I am paying 4 everyone's insurance. And I am paying for half of the child care. She is going to be on her own insurance starting next year but I will still cover the kids. I looked at the child support calculator + that's basically what I'd be paying anyway as far as expenses.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## Tron

Mark72 said:


> My car is in both our names but I pay it. The cell phone bill has both of our phones on it. She pays her part and I pay mine. I am paying 4 everyone's insurance. And I am paying for half of the child care. She is going to be on her own insurance starting next year but I will still cover the kids. I looked at the child support calculator + _that's basically what I'd be paying anyway as far as expenses._


I caution you Mark to make statements like this. From my recollection, you've never spoken to an attorney, so you really don't know what you would be paying.

You guys are still married even though you've been "separated" for a long time. "Separated" means nothing if no-one has filed for D. 

I am not familiar with Ohio law, but insofar as the courts are concerned every debt you two generate up to the day one of you files for divorce is a joint liability. Keep that in mind and stop making assumptions!

Your W is the primary wage earner so I suggest you not pay your childcare this month and use it for an attorney instead.


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## Mark72

Tron said:


> I caution you Mark to make statements like this. From my recollection, you've never spoken to an attorney, so you really don't know what you would be paying.
> 
> You guys are still married even though you've been "separated" for a long time. "Separated" means nothing if no-one has filed for D.
> 
> I am not familiar with Ohio law, but insofar as the courts are concerned every debt you two generate up to the day one of you files for divorce is a joint liability. Keep that in mind and stop making assumptions!
> 
> Your W is the primary wage earner so I suggest you not pay your childcare this month and use it for an attorney instead.


I have talked to an attorney. Got a couple free consultations. Even had a chat with her attorney. Right now this is my dilemma in a nutshell. I am staying with family, and a house that's not suitable for visits from my children. My budget is stripped to the Bone and I still cannot afford an apartment. By this time next year, my car will be paid off and I will be in a much better position, but I really don't want to wait that long. What her attorney proposed to me was that everything stays the same except our marital status. I go visit the kids over there and pay for half the daycare. No more support. I think her attorney for the information and left it at that.

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## Tron

Do they have alimony in Ohio?

And Mark, keep in mind her attorney is looking out for her interests...NOT yours.


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## Chuck71

Mark.... when my DDay and D filing hit four years ago... I still loved her. But I knew... if she had the 

chance, she would throw me under the bus. The first step is the hardest, believe me.

"But my W wouldn't do that" well examine your last few years... treat your opponent like 

they are the greatest adversary the world has ever known. Is she, no but you will have "no surprises"

If she borrows $100k three months before you file.... you are on the hook for half if she chooses.

That's the reason I don't believe in separations.... get a D, cool off, then R. Kinda like my parents did

in the 60s.


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## Mark72

Tron said:


> Do they have alimony in Ohio?


Not that I know of. I have some friends that are divorce attorneys in the state, but they are in counties far away. From what I understand, the courts really seem to like shared parenting when both parents are involved. She makes more money, but she spends it like it's going out of style. My budget doesn't really allow for me to have a whole lot of extracurricular activities, but at least I know that in a year's time I'll be paid down.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk


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## Mark72

Chuck71 said:


> Mark.... when my DDay and D filing hit four years ago... I still loved her. But I knew... if she had the
> 
> chance, she would throw me under the bus. The first step is the hardest, believe me.
> 
> "But my W wouldn't do that" well examine your last few years... treat your opponent like
> 
> they are the greatest adversary the world has ever known. Is she, no but you will have "no surprises"
> 
> If she borrows $100k three months before you file.... you are on the hook for half if she chooses.
> 
> That's the reason I don't believe in separations.... get a D, cool off, then R. Kinda like my parents did
> 
> in the 60s.


If we get divorced, I won't want her back at all. I still don't really want a divorce, I'd really like to have the woman that I love back. She's gone forever, and she's deciding not to make any moves back towards it. But if it gets to a divorce, I'm done.

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## Chuck71

Isn't the wait time for a D in Ohio a year? Use this time to improve you and be a great dad.

I'm sure she knows how you stand about D, if it's done, we're through. Maybe you said that at 

beginning of separation. Maybe she believed it then, I doubt she does now. Filing for D

makes it "real." No more talking, just walking. If you want the M to work and she doesn't... is that what you

want? Good God that is soul destroying. I've had four major loves in my life and have spoken on 

them here many times.... every single time I "officially" walked away, who began to chase who?

I made it "real" and then I had the choice of returning or walking away. The first two, yes they were 

HS and college sweethearts, I returned and regretted it years later. Yeah we were kids but love, is love.

The XW in 2013, turned her away, never regretted it. Same with UG in 2014. Did it hurt, oh God yes.

But I knew I made the right decision. Funny the 1st love (1988-90) and XW still make sporadic 

attempts to re-enter my life. Am I "that hot" ... lol no but they realized their mistakes.

Making your W face the fact she may also regret her mistakes and never have a 2nd chance with you, 

will make her think twice about this. Her arse has never been put in the fire pit. Let's see how she reacts


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## farsidejunky

Mark:

FWIW, I am sorry it has come to this, but glad you are finally sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Your marriage has been in shambles for a while, with really only you holding it together.


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## Mark72

Chuck71 said:


> Isn't the wait time for a D in Ohio a year? Use this time to improve you and be a great dad.
> 
> I'm sure she knows how you stand about D, if it's done, we're through. Maybe you said that at
> 
> beginning of separation. Maybe she believed it then, I doubt she does now. Filing for D
> 
> makes it "real." No more talking, just walking. If you want the M to work and she doesn't... is that what you
> 
> want? Good God that is soul destroying. I've had four major loves in my life and have spoken on
> 
> them here many times.... every single time I "officially" walked away, who began to chase who?
> 
> I made it "real" and then I had the choice of returning or walking away. The first two, yes they were
> 
> HS and college sweethearts, I returned and regretted it years later. Yeah we were kids but love, is love.
> 
> The XW in 2013, turned her away, never regretted it. Same with UG in 2014. Did it hurt, oh God yes.
> 
> But I knew I made the right decision. Funny the 1st love (1988-90) and XW still make sporadic
> 
> attempts to re-enter my life. Am I "that hot" ... lol no but they realized their mistakes.
> 
> Making your W face the fact she may also regret her mistakes and never have a 2nd chance with you,
> 
> will make her think twice about this. Her arse has never been put in the fire pit. Let's see how she reacts


She hasn't filed. She sought a dissolution. 
I am distancing myself from her as much as I can. It's easier but still not as easy as I'd like it to be.

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## Mark72

farsidejunky said:


> Mark:
> 
> FWIW, I am sorry it has come to this, but glad you are finally sick and tired of being sick and tired.
> 
> Your marriage has been in shambles for a while, with really only you holding it together.


Yeah. I can't try enough for both of us. Soooooo... just trying to be an awesome dad. 

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## Mark72

Just a quick update.
Divorce has been filed. Just had the preliminary meeting to schedule everything.
She still believes that she will have sole custody and I will be going to her residence to visit. She is also under the impression that we will still be doing family activities after the divorce.
No on both accounts. It's an all-or-nothing deal. The moment the paperwork is signed, the only access she has to me is for co-parenting only


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## Tron

Welcome back Mark,

You have the patience of Job my friend. 

All-or-nothing sounds perfect. Does she know, because eventually you will have to dispel her of those false beliefs. 

Did you get your job and living arrangements settled? And is the rest of your family still living in her parents' home?


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## Taxman

In my practice, I see at least ten divorces a year. Without fail, women who initiated divorce proceedings for what I would consider less than obvious reasons, tended to believe that their ex husbands would be just fine doing family activities and essentially being there but not being there. Their wake-up calls happen within the first year where suddenly daddy is taking the kids, and having nothing to do with the ex-wife. Then suddenly daddy is in a new relationship. Then suddenly, daddy is getting re-married and the kids are part of this new family. 

The women are literally blown away. They examine their reasons for the split. I have had many an ex-wife say that if they had to do it again, they would have never divorced. They realized that they were incredibly selfish, and wanted things their own way. Some said that they were encouraged to split by their divorced friends. I, myself, had my wife cut her former best girlfriend off, she was suggesting to my wife that she could do better, and to that end wanted her to accompany her to a cougar bar. I told this friend that she was too damn ugly to attract guys at a club and wanted my wife as her wing-girl so that she could at least get down with my wife's cast-offs. 

One or two said that they thought that there was a pool of "better" men out there, only to discover that their ex found the "better" woman, and has remade his life, while she is alone. There is a growing pool of 40-50ish women who literally threw their husbands away for less than good reasons who have lived to regret their decisions.


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## Mark72

Tron said:


> Welcome back Mark,
> 
> You have the patience of Job my friend.
> 
> All-or-nothing sounds perfect. Does she know, because eventually you will have to dispel her of those false beliefs.
> 
> Did you get your job and living arrangements settled? And is the rest of your family still living in her parents' home?


Yes – there was a restraining order that said nothing changes as far as insurance bank accounts, visitation, etc.
So for now, I am still going to her parents’ to visit and I am still staying with family and contributing there. I am still at my day job but I got a second job at Lowe’s. I now have no credit card debt. I have also paid off my tuition bill (not the student loans)
I have a year on my car and I have some medical bills to pay but I should be in a place to buy a house before the end of the year.
I actually love the job at Lowes. Not so much at the bank anymore. It’s a job with great insurance but I’m not enjoying it. 
On the negative side, my heart is giving me fits again. I had a stent put in last month and now I will need a valve transplant. Aortic valve stenosis – of the severe variety.


----------



## Mark72

Taxman said:


> In my practice, I see at least ten divorces a year. Without fail, women who initiated divorce proceedings for what I would consider less than obvious reasons, tended to believe that their ex husbands would be just fine doing family activities and essentially being there but not being there. Their wake-up calls happen within the first year where suddenly daddy is taking the kids, and having nothing to do with the ex-wife. Then suddenly daddy is in a new relationship. Then suddenly, daddy is getting re-married and the kids are part of this new family.
> 
> The women are literally blown away. They examine their reasons for the split. I have had many an ex-wife say that if they had to do it again, they would have never divorced. They realized that they were incredibly selfish, and wanted things their own way. Some said that they were encouraged to split by their divorced friends. I, myself, had my wife cut her former best girlfriend off, she was suggesting to my wife that she could do better, and to that end wanted her to accompany her to a cougar bar. I told this friend that she was too damn ugly to attract guys at a club and wanted my wife as her wing-girl so that she could at least get down with my wife's cast-offs.
> 
> One or two said that they thought that there was a pool of "better" men out there, only to discover that their ex found the "better" woman, and has remade his life, while she is alone. There is a growing pool of 40-50ish women who literally threw their husbands away for less than good reasons who have lived to regret their decisions.


I have thought a lot about this. I have been getting my crap together. I have shed a major portion of my codependence, which was the toughest thing I’ve ever done. I got off my butt and started doing things about my problems rather than waiting for her to come back. The door is still open for reconciliation, but she has to work for it if she really wants it. I have taken the high road and am still wearing my wedding ring and am not dating while I am still married. Not to get her attention or anything like that, but as a statement that I stand by my vows until the divorce that I never wanted. 
She has been trying to get in shape. She has lost over 100 lbs since our youngest was born but she is still a big girl. She still has a princess complex and anger issues. She also has 3 children. Sorry to say that men typically will find children more of a deterrent than women. So I think she will be alone for a while if this finalizes.


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## Satya

Taxman said:


> In my practice, I see at least ten divorces a year. Without fail, women who initiated divorce proceedings for what I would consider less than obvious reasons, tended to believe that their ex husbands would be just fine doing family activities and essentially being there but not being there. Their wake-up calls happen within the first year where suddenly daddy is taking the kids, and having nothing to do with the ex-wife. Then suddenly daddy is in a new relationship. Then suddenly, daddy is getting re-married and the kids are part of this new family.
> 
> The women are literally blown away. They examine their reasons for the split. I have had many an ex-wife say that if they had to do it again, they would have never divorced. They realized that they were incredibly selfish, and wanted things their own way. Some said that they were encouraged to split by their divorced friends. I, myself, had my wife cut her former best girlfriend off, she was suggesting to my wife that she could do better, and to that end wanted her to accompany her to a cougar bar. I told this friend that she was too damn ugly to attract guys at a club and wanted my wife as her wing-girl so that she could at least get down with my wife's cast-offs.
> 
> One or two said that they thought that there was a pool of "better" men out there, only to discover that their ex found the "better" woman, and has remade his life, while she is alone. There is a growing pool of 40-50ish women who literally threw their husbands away for less than good reasons who have lived to regret their decisions.


This is what happens when women believe they have inherent value by merely existing or being "the wife/mother." 

There is a lot more necessary for being a woman of value. When a man realizes there are other, more valuable women out there that won't screw him over, and will treat him like a partner, he can forge ahead with no regrets. 

We often don't appreciate what we have until it's gone. And you have to have something to appreciate to even notice it's absence.


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## Cynthia

I'm sorry to hear about your heart problems. I hope you get them resolved soon and are feeling much better.

It's good to hear that you are getting on with your life and not waiting on someone else to do something that they have no desire to do. Keep on moving forward and please up-date us from time to time. I had been wondering recently how you are doing and was glad to see such a positive update.

Onward and upward. God bless you, Mark!


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## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your heart problems. I hope you get them resolved soon and are feeling much better.
> 
> 
> 
> It's good to hear that you are getting on with your life and not waiting on someone else to do something that they have no desire to do. Keep on moving forward and please up-date us from time to time. I had been wondering recently how you are doing and was glad to see such a positive update.
> 
> 
> 
> Onward and upward. God bless you, Mark!




Thanks, Cynthia. I'm not holding out for her to take me back per se, but I am waiting for the divorce to start dating.


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## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Thanks, Cynthia. I'm not holding out for her to take me back per se, but I am waiting for the divorce to start dating.


That is a wise and moral choice, but that's not what I was talking about. What I meant was that you have looked to her to make changes that she didn't care to make and now you are no longer waiting on her. It sounds like you have grown a lot and I'm really glad to hear it. I always thought you had it in you.


----------



## aine

Taxman said:


> In my practice, I see at least ten divorces a year. Without fail, women who initiated divorce proceedings for what I would consider less than obvious reasons, tended to believe that their ex husbands would be just fine doing family activities and essentially being there but not being there. Their wake-up calls happen within the first year where suddenly daddy is taking the kids, and having nothing to do with the ex-wife. Then suddenly daddy is in a new relationship. Then suddenly, daddy is getting re-married and the kids are part of this new family.
> 
> The women are literally blown away. They examine their reasons for the split. I have had many an ex-wife say that if they had to do it again, they would have never divorced. They realized that they were incredibly selfish, and wanted things their own way. Some said that they were encouraged to split by their divorced friends. I, myself, had my wife cut her former best girlfriend off, she was suggesting to my wife that she could do better, and to that end wanted her to accompany her to a cougar bar. I told this friend that she was too damn ugly to attract guys at a club and wanted my wife as her wing-girl so that she could at least get down with my wife's cast-offs.
> 
> One or two said that they thought that there was a pool of "better" men out there, only to discover that their ex found the "better" woman, and has remade his life, while she is alone. There is a growing pool of 40-50ish women who literally threw their husbands away for less than good reasons who have lived to regret their decisions.


Am I reading this right but Mark is not the victim here, you reckon his wife had no grounds to divorce him? They are all clearly stated in the opening post. It was her perogative to accept his sorries or not. Sometime s the amount of emotional pain can never be soothed when caused by any sort of addiction. I am still with a dry drunk who seems to have turned over a new leaf and would be horrified if anyone here saw him as the victim. If i decided to divorce I would be well within my rights, seems you all have forgotten this aspect of OP's story. 
Not to cast any disparity on you Mark but you have to take responsibility for the way the marriage went and stop painting your wife out to be the big bad witch. As a Christian (so you said) you ought to know that God never promised everything would work out, there will always be consequences for ones actions regardless of how penitent you are and divorce and estrangement in a marriage is one such consequence.


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## happysnappy

There is alimony in ohio but it varies greatly county to county and is totally up to the judge. It is likely she would get stuck with her debt and you yours. Your best bet is to make a budget and stick to it. Get out of debt and better yourself. Visiting the kids at her place is a bad precedent to set but it doesn't sound like you have much option at this point. Turning it around later is super hard 


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## Mark72

happysnappy said:


> There is alimony in ohio but it varies greatly county to county and is totally up to the judge. It is likely she would get stuck with her debt and you yours. Your best bet is to make a budget and stick to it. Get out of debt and better yourself. Visiting the kids at her place is a bad precedent to set but it doesn't sound like you have much option at this point. Turning it around later is super hard
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




She makes a lot more than me. My attorney is seeking 50/50 visitation


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## happysnappy

Mark72 said:


> She makes a lot more than me. My attorney is seeking 50/50 visitation
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Good! Hang In there. 


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## Mark72

aine said:


> Am I reading this right but Mark is not the victim here, you reckon his wife had no grounds to divorce him? They are all clearly stated in the opening post. It was her perogative to accept his sorries or not. Sometime s the amount of emotional pain can never be soothed when caused by any sort of addiction. I am still with a dry drunk who seems to have turned over a new leaf and would be horrified if anyone here saw him as the victim. If i decided to divorce I would be well within my rights, seems you all have forgotten this aspect of OP's story.
> 
> Not to cast any disparity on you Mark but you have to take responsibility for the way the marriage went and stop painting your wife out to be the big bad witch. As a Christian (so you said) you ought to know that God never promised everything would work out, there will always be consequences for ones actions regardless of how penitent you are and divorce and estrangement in a marriage is one such consequence.




I have absolutely taken responsibility for my actions of the past. 8 years and 2 children have passed since then. If one has expressed forgiveness, how long can they keep that "get out of jail free" card when things aren't smooth sailing?


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## Cynthia

This issues that created these marriage problems originate with both parties. We have encouraged Mark to own up to his issues and he has been. For those of us who are working through and moving forward, we are a work in progress. Unfortunately, Mark's wife wants to live her life as if she's all that matters and has not owned up to her issues. Her issues seem to have increased.


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## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> This issues that created these marriage problems originate with both parties. We have encouraged Mark to own up to his issues and he has been. For those of us who are working through and moving forward, we are a work in progress. Unfortunately, Mark's wife wants to live her life as if she's all that matters and has not owned up to her issues. Her issues seem to have increased.




Not entirely true.... she has worked somewhat on things but she has not stepped out of her comfort zone to make the marriage work 


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## Cynthia

Mark72 said:


> Not entirely true.... she has worked somewhat on things but she has not stepped out of her comfort zone to make the marriage work


That's too bad for your family, but you are taking personal responsibility now and that's all you can do.


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## Taxman

PS, Mark
Dude, sorry to hear about the stenosis. Do they want to catheterize or replace? I'm a former heart patient myself. I feel for your situation, both maritally and health-wise. There are some things that are just not in your control. Your heart is one of them, and hopefully with treatment, will get better. Good luck, sir.


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## Mark72

Taxman said:


> PS, Mark
> 
> Dude, sorry to hear about the stenosis. Do they want to catheterize or replace? I'm a former heart patient myself. I feel for your situation, both maritally and health-wise. There are some things that are just not in your control. Your heart is one of them, and hopefully with treatment, will get better. Good luck, sir.




I definitely need a replacement. I'm just not sure if it's going to be weeks, months, or years. I'm guessing weeks



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## Taxman

My daughter did her masters in cardiac surgery, the advances just in the last five years are amazing. The replacement could be mechanical or biological. They have had success using valves from pigs which have hearts approximating the size of a human heart. My last procedure was a horror show. They were doing a routine angioplasty on me, when I reacted to the blood thinner, had a total systemic cascading clot, and was in a coma for about 4 days. Took me literally 3 years to fully recover. You are in my prayers sir.


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## Mark72

Much appreciated!! I'm likely looking at a pig valve. The mechanical valves require blood thinners indefinitely. I'd have to have a new one every 5 years or so...


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## Chuck71

Taxman said:


> In my practice, I see at least ten divorces a year. Without fail, women who initiated divorce proceedings for what I would consider less than obvious reasons, tended to believe that their ex husbands would be just fine doing family activities and essentially being there but not being there. Their wake-up calls happen within the first year where suddenly daddy is taking the kids, and having nothing to do with the ex-wife. Then suddenly daddy is in a new relationship. Then suddenly, daddy is getting re-married and the kids are part of this new family.
> 
> The women are literally blown away. They examine their reasons for the split. I have had many an ex-wife say that if they had to do it again, they would have never divorced. They realized that they were incredibly selfish, and wanted things their own way. Some said that they were encouraged to split by their divorced friends. I, myself, had my wife cut her former best girlfriend off, she was suggesting to my wife that she could do better, and to that end wanted her to accompany her to a cougar bar. I told this friend that she was too damn ugly to attract guys at a club and wanted my wife as her wing-girl so that she could at least get down with my wife's cast-offs.
> 
> One or two said that they thought that there was a pool of "better" men out there, only to discover that their ex found the "better" woman, and has remade his life, while she is alone. There is a growing pool of 40-50ish women who literally threw their husbands away for less than good reasons who have lived to regret their decisions.


QFT


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## Chuck71

Mark72........ hate hearing about your heart. My mom had a triple bi but came out like a champ....

at 72 and a 55 year 2-3 pack a day smoker. You have owned your POS tendencies. You have 

improved yourself..... that's all YOU can do. The rest... is up to the other. It's been 4.5 years since

my DDay and minus the first.... six weeks, it has been reach after reach, on her part.

As Sayta stated, 'you don't know what you've got, 'till it's gone- in many cases.

Mark72 2.0 will be an appealing catch for some fine woman.


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## Taxman

Mark72 said:


> Much appreciated!! I'm likely looking at a pig valve. The mechanical valves require blood thinners indefinitely. I'd have to have a new one every 5 years or so...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mark, I'm going to give you my horror story about blood thinners. I have had two heart attacks. The first blockage was relieved through angioplasty. No problems, this was before stents. Five years later, same blockage is back. This time I reacted to the heparin blood thinner. Last thing I remember is saying to the surgeon, "I feel funny". Total systemic cascading clot. I was in a coma for four days, apparently they had to replace a good amount of my blood volume. I woke up while they were putting a tube down my throat, to hear them tell my wife that she should be making my final arrangements. I passed back out, about half-way through her scream. Apparently I was down another 24 hours, and I woke up with my BF at the end of my bed, the room was white and bathed in sunlight and the first thing that came out of my mouth was; "Please tell me, am I dead?" I lost a lot; no stamina, no immune system (sure was fun re-experiencing some childhood diseases, did not remember that chicken pox makes your entire body one big hurt, and eczema on your hands in mid-winter is such a joy) Oh, the joys of being a heart patient. 

My heart and prayers go out to you. All my best sir.


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## Mark72

Also a type 1 diabetic, so that plays a part of it. I'm looking forward to. Wing released to do exercise, but it may be a while


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## ReturntoZero

Hey brother... the pig valve sounds like the way to go.

She thinks you're a pig anyway, what the hell?0


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## Mark72

Taxman said:


> Mark, I'm going to give you my horror story about blood thinners. I have had two heart attacks. The first blockage was relieved through angioplasty. No problems, this was before stents. Five years later, same blockage is back. This time I reacted to the heparin blood thinner. Last thing I remember is saying to the surgeon, "I feel funny". Total systemic cascading clot. I was in a coma for four days, apparently they had to replace a good amount of my blood volume. I woke up while they were putting a tube down my throat, to hear them tell my wife that she should be making my final arrangements. I passed back out, about half-way through her scream. Apparently I was down another 24 hours, and I woke up with my BF at the end of my bed, the room was white and bathed in sunlight and the first thing that came out of my mouth was; "Please tell me, am I dead?" I lost a lot; no stamina, no immune system (sure was fun re-experiencing some childhood diseases, did not remember that chicken pox makes your entire body one big hurt, and eczema on your hands in mid-winter is such a joy) Oh, the joys of being a heart patient.
> 
> 
> 
> My heart and prayers go out to you. All my best sir.




I have no words. That's rough


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## Chuck71

ReturntoZero said:


> Hey brother... the pig valve sounds like the way to go.
> 
> She thinks you're a pig anyway, what the hell?0


And get the best pig possible.

I hear pigs from Hooterville named Arnold are top of the line!


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## Mark72

Chuck71 said:


> And get the best pig possible.
> 
> 
> 
> I hear pigs from Hooterville named Arnold are top of the line!




Yeah I'm a pig... maybe they will just use bacon. 🥓 


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## Taxman

But once the ticker is in tip-top shape again....watch out.


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## Mark72

Gonna be a tough road but tough is what I know


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## Mark72

Time for a second opinion. I had another angiogram done on Friday. The doctor said that my stent looks good and the bypass from five years ago looks good. No real blockage. He isn't sure about the severity of the stenosis but I'll probably be looking at surgery soon. And he wants to see me in a month.yeah, I'm not going to wait for a month to go see him again and then tell me that I need to go see a surgeon. Just refer me to a surgeon now. Never mind, going to go see another doctor


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## MovingForward

Mark72 said:


> Just a quick update.
> Divorce has been filed. Just had the preliminary meeting to schedule everything.
> She still believes that she will have sole custody and I will be going to her residence to visit. She is also under the impression that we will still be doing family activities after the divorce.
> No on both accounts. It's an all-or-nothing deal. The moment the paperwork is signed, the only access she has to me is for co-parenting only


This seems to be so common my XW told me and my kids the same I told her no we are not a family anymore so we are not going to pretend we are. No idea why she thought things were going to be the same except she is banging a new guy. 



Taxman said:


> In my practice, I see at least ten divorces a year. Without fail, women who initiated divorce proceedings for what I would consider less than obvious reasons, tended to believe that their ex husbands would be just fine doing family activities and essentially being there but not being there. Their wake-up calls happen within the first year where suddenly daddy is taking the kids, and having nothing to do with the ex-wife. Then suddenly daddy is in a new relationship. Then suddenly, daddy is getting re-married and the kids are part of this new family.
> 
> The women are literally blown away. They examine their reasons for the split. I have had many an ex-wife say that if they had to do it again, they would have never divorced. They realized that they were incredibly selfish, and wanted things their own way. Some said that they were encouraged to split by their divorced friends. I, myself, had my wife cut her former best girlfriend off, she was suggesting to my wife that she could do better, and to that end wanted her to accompany her to a cougar bar. I told this friend that she was too damn ugly to attract guys at a club and wanted my wife as her wing-girl so that she could at least get down with my wife's cast-offs.
> 
> One or two said that they thought that there was a pool of "better" men out there, only to discover that their ex found the "better" woman, and has remade his life, while she is alone. There is a growing pool of 40-50ish women who literally threw their husbands away for less than good reasons who have lived to regret their decisions.


 @Taxman you see the same pattern repeat over and over and its just crazy how it happens like that, we never argued, no money issues, no infidelity on my behalf, I helped around house, took kids out all the time and we had a good sex life she just felt trapped as a mother and wife and decided she needed 'more' she wanted us to be best friends and hang out all the time but be divorced. I am sure as a few of her friends divorced and she started going out with them she started enjoying the attention and freedom and thought that was what she wanted, who knows if it is or isn't but sure is a weird situation. Nothing we can do but move on though and hope the next one is better, sucks at the time and for the kids but what can we do . :smile2:


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## Taxman

In my experience Moving Forward, at about the two year to three year mark, when you are in a new and better place, suddenly the attention she craved is coming from "lesser" guys. Meanwhile back on the ranch, you have moved on to someone younger, prettier, and less likely to cheat. She will as a known cheat will find it difficult to land a good man. (Would you get into a relationship with a cheat?) Therefore, the betrayed will likely do well, the cheat, not so much. (A relative watched her cheating ex get married several weeks ago. He married the AP. Everyone is taking bets as to how long it will take him to cheat on the new W.)


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## MovingForward

Taxman said:


> In my experience Moving Forward, at about the two year to three year mark, when you are in a new and better place, suddenly the attention she craved is coming from "lesser" guys. Meanwhile back on the ranch, you have moved on to someone younger, prettier, and less likely to cheat. She will as a known cheat will find it difficult to land a good man. (Would you get into a relationship with a cheat?) Therefore, the betrayed will likely do well, the cheat, not so much. (A relative watched her cheating ex get married several weeks ago. He married the AP. Everyone is taking bets as to how long it will take him to cheat on the new W.)


Nope never date a known cheat and if I did (which i never would )have an affair with a married woman it would only ever be about sex as that's not someone i would actually date because i know it would be same for me down the road. I really do believe in 90% of cases one a cheat always a cheat.

I just want a good woman, who's hot, fun, doesn't nag, loves sex daily, enjoys my company and builds me up versus breaking me down is that too much to ask?????? LOL


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## Taxman

MovingForward said:


> I just want a good woman, who's hot, fun, doesn't nag, loves sex daily, enjoys my company and builds me up versus breaking me down is that too much to ask?????? LOL


You just described my wife. I know that she is not an endangered species. I know that there are a lot of good women out there, and I sincerely hope that you find one, marry her, make a great life, while your exWW spends the rest of her life getting older, and learning to live alone.


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## Mark72

Taxman said:


> You just described my wife. I know that she is not an endangered species. I know that there are a lot of good women out there, and I sincerely hope that you find one, marry her, make a great life, while your exWW spends the rest of her life getting older, and learning to live alone.




This was my wife for the 1st 2 years haha


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## Mark72

Ok - time to catch up!

Had the valve replacement surgery in July. ALl went well - still trying to get back in shape - that's a long process but I'm getting there.

Divorce final hearing was a month ago - still waiting for the final paperwork in the mail but for all intents and purposes I am a divorced man. I'm actually quite relieved. I don't have to live under anyone's thumb. I am free to do as I wish. I can date again. 

I am closing on a house this month. First one only in my name in my life. It's small, old, and not the best part of town, but the interior is all 100% new and I can afford it. Visitation is on the fence right now - because of where I live, I am still going to see them at her house but after I close we will be going back to court.

How is everyone doing??


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## Tron

Sounds like a big step Mark. 

Congrats on the new place! Fight for your alone time with the kids.


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## turnera

Great news on your health. And cheers to a great new life.


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## Chuck71

Keep climbing! Mark2018..... yousa havs this. Try to get 50 /50 with kids. Congrats on the house.

Is Arnold adopting well to you? Any DIY projects upcoming on your new digs?


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## Mark72

Chuck71 said:


> Keep climbing! Mark2018..... yousa havs this. Try to get 50 /50 with kids. Congrats on the house.
> 
> Is Arnold adopting well to you? Any DIY projects upcoming on your new digs?




Arnold?


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## Betrayedone

Mark72 said:


> Arnold?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


........the pig valve.......Arnold Ziffel.......


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## Mark72

Betrayedone said:


> ........the pig valve.......Arnold Ziffel.......




Actually the valve was made from bovine pericardium material. So I’m part human part cow



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## Cynthia

Moo 

Why is your location hindering your time with your children? Is this your ex or the courts decision? Are you still allowing her to control your relationship with your children?


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## Mark72

CynthiaDe said:


> Moo
> 
> 
> 
> Why is your location hindering your time with your children? Is this your ex or the courts decision? Are you still allowing her to control your relationship with your children?




Where I am staying is not a good place for the kids to visit or stay overnight
I’ll have my house in less than a month. My attorney assured me that this is the way to go



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## Mark72

Appraisal was pushed back on the house... another two weeks before I can buy


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## Chuck71

Mark72 said:


> Actually the valve was made from bovine pericardium material. So I’m part human part cow
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Wow.... that is very MOOOOOOOOO-ving. 

Have patience, all things come in time......... even rebate checks from Best Buy


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## bencoll

Hello, how are you doing now? I am sad you two had to go through a divorce


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## Mark72

I’m OK. Just biding my time until I can get this house. Her attorney installing on getting the paperwork done so I can be officially divorced


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## Mark72

Ok update. 
I’m 3 weeks in the house. My attorney hasn’t replied about a court date but I still don’t have the place unpacked and ready for the kids so it’s ok I guess. 




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## happy as a clam

Glad that you’re in your new house!! Just a little longer and the kiddos will arrive. Hang in there Marky!


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## Mark72

happy as a clam said:


> Glad that you’re in your new house!! Just a little longer and the kiddos will arrive. Hang in there Marky!




Thank you Clammy!!! Miss chatting with ya!


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