# At a cross roads and need HELP



## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

My wife and I have been married almost 11 years. We got off to a bad start because we were involved in an abusive ultra conservative church that all but forbid me from marring her. 
After we were married, we got pregnant, with twins, but we lost the second daughter shortly before birth.
We ended up leaving the abusive church that same year and have attended three other churches in the remaining 10 years.
I was once a minister in two of the churches, but never completely healed from the years of abuse. 
To add to this, my wife has always had a weight problem and is self conscious of this. She tries and fails with keeping off the weight, and is even on Prozac for her problems.
Her low self esteem means that she does not take care on how she dresses most of the time and she will not keep (or help much with the house) I do 95% of the laundry and cleaning, she will cook.

In short she is a hoarder, and it is a constant fight (for me) to keep the front and main house clean and presentable. I am responsible for the lawns and house and about 20% of the cooking.

What is worse is, my daughters are picking up her slovenly habits!


She wanted pets and she got dogs. they stayed in kennels to the point of abuse I would say. we have our daughters water, feed and play with them. I put them in our large back yard.

Over the years we were able to purchase two houses (one is a rental) and are sending our daughters to a small Christian school. 

With the anxiety of the past, and my inability to say no we have a significant amount of debt and we have 3 judgements against us for credit card debt and soon a time-share foreclosure.

Everything looks OK on the outside, but we have several blow-up arguments about every 3 to 6 months. I am told I am thoughtless, don't meet her emotional needs and am selfish. She constantly brings up the past church we came from and when I say "You haven't forgiven me for being in that church" she states "You never changed!!"

I feel like I am doing a lot, I just miss social cues all the time. She says I don't meet her real needs, and argues about Mazlo's hierarchy of needs.


Another turn for the worst is this:
1. In 10 months all of our parents have died (They were all in or near their 80's)
2. We don't have a lot of mutual friends since we switch churches and both work nights, in fact we hardly see each other.
3. We have been fighting about sex for 3-7 years. In fact it has been 8 or so years since she has initiated it! And when we do have sex (Not since January) it's a fight to get it!

In our last argument 
I was given an ultimatum:
"Get your poop together or we are pretty much finished"


I came from a family where my dad was a philanderer and my mother played the silently suffering martyr. In the end my dad was in a nursing home, and my mother was a bitter old woman. I want to stay faithful to my wife, but the constant turmoil of:

1. not knowing what I'm really doing wrong 
2. her unwilling to change herself
3. the feeling that the house and home isn't getting any better
4. The offer for counseling refused several times

I don't want history to repeat itself. I don't want to be my mom or my dad.

another trouble is the fact that I was depressed to the point of seeing a psychologist. I tried two different times over the years. The last one brought out something that I readily noticed. I would complain about all these things and the burden seemed to be lifted. I felt guilty to say those things about my wife and talked more, but problems got worse. 

I need my friend, confidant and lover back but the future looks bleak. Another friend, when i showed them pictures of where my wife sleeps, and a pic of the dog kennel compared the three (ME, kennel and her sofa in the basement; because we havent slept in the same bed in about 3 years) said that I was caged.

I don't know what to do. I'm not getting depressed anymore and im seriously considering divorce. My needs are no longer met on any level.

Someone please help...... Im at the end of my rope!


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So why exactly do you want to stay, knowing you can't change her?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Wow. I usually pride myself on being able to see hope in any situation. She insists that everything is your fault and refuses to deal with her issues. I really don't see a way out and would probably let her flow through on her threat to leave. 

Sorry dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'llUseMyEars (Jul 27, 2014)

Im sorry Mr Duck. Certainly seems you are in a hopeless situation. Far too much of the life burden falls on you, and it seems she feels you arent even doing that right. She obviously has many issues that she obviously isnt willing to face head on. At some point you must do what is best for you, AND your children. Not an easy decision, but listening to your story, there isnt much that is coming easy for you.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

PBear said:


> So why exactly do you want to stay, knowing you can't change her?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought to stick it out out of honor, commitment and a vow I took. Regardless of this I still want to make the best attempt one last time so my conscience is clean. I hate even having to bring up this type of stuff on a forum.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What are her needs that she says you are not meeting?


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

I think it is great that you are trying to do the right thing for your wife and family. However, I don't think that is what you are doing at all.

If you want your wife to respect you, you have to be a strong man. I am not saying cruel or harsh, but firm in your words. Your wife obviously has many problems. You need to give be giving her the ultimatum. Shape up or ship out. I know it's hard, but you are only enabling her by accepting this behavior. 

And btw, I grew up in a strict Christian family. My mother always said cleanliness is next to Godliness. Maybe your wife could use that advice. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> Wow. I usually pride myself on being able to see hope in any situation. She insists that everything is your fault and refuses to deal with her issues. I really don't see a way out and would probably let her flow through on her threat to leave.
> 
> Sorry dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is terrible, because I never thought, in my wildest nightmares that I would face this decision, especially since I got an ultimatum and at first thought to "Work on my self".
Im miserable about this.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

I'llUseMyEars said:


> Im sorry Mr Duck. Certainly seems you are in a hopeless situation. Far too much of the life burden falls on you, and it seems she feels you arent even doing that right. She obviously has many issues that she obviously isnt willing to face head on. At some point you must do what is best for you, AND your children. Not an easy decision, but listening to your story, there isnt much that is coming easy for you.


Im not a perfect person. I keep the bills paid, the house clean and we are church going people. Im tired of walking on "egg shells" with not knowing what the next blow-out will be.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> What are her needs that she says you are not meeting?


She states that it is security.
the statements are:
1. "You do all the little things, which is good. But you need to be there for me"
2. Your opinions are too critical of others you need to change your beliefs and not act like were still in that "cult"
3. When I need you the most, you are not there.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

inquizitivemind said:


> I think it is great that you are trying to do the right thing for your wife and family. However, I don't think that is what you are doing at all.
> 
> If you want your wife to respect you, you have to be a strong man. I am not saying cruel or harsh, but firm in your words. Your wife obviously has many problems. You need to give be giving her the ultimatum. Shape up or ship out. I know it's hard, but you are only enabling her by accepting this behavior.
> 
> ...


I guess my leadership demeanor is like the sentimental basketball coach. I can be harsh, intellectual or pep talk, but all three are resented.
I never thought I was enabling her behavior before. This is a new thought. At one time I did try to stop doing as much, but this just drove me crazy!

Isn't this ironic. The guy is the clean one and the wife is the slob!! whats wrong with this stereotypical picture!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

duck-man said:


> Isn't this ironic. The guy is the clean one and the wife is the slob!! whats wrong with this stereotypical picture!!


What's wrong is that stereotypes don't apply to individuals.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

You cleaning won't make her a clean. You spending money or letting her spend money on unnecessary items won't help you pay the bills. You sleeping apart from her won't make her feel attracted to you, or even close to you. Everything you are currently doing will not get you what you want out of your relationship. What can *YOU* change about the situation?

To be honest, I've dealt with a hoarder and they don't change because they don't want to. It impacts on a child's life immensely. I've read some forums of children of hoarders and the emotional trauma they suffer is bad enough that I'd kick my spouse out before I let them do that to my children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Hording is a form of OCD. Your wife sounds extremely depressed. It sounds the Prozac is not working for her. Perhaps you could go with her to whomever her medical provider is. She might need to see about different medications. One you might want to ask about is Wellbutrin.

If your wife is taking a generic Prozac, this could be part of the problem. A few years ago I was on Prozac (the name brand), then my insurance switched me to a generic. It was horrible. I was better off without the drug than on it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Your wife has SERIOUS issues that you will in no way be able to fix for her. Suggest she get therapy and you two get to counseling together, or you are out of there. And follow through.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

My daughters are picking up some of my wife's bad habits. I have tried to confront her about this problem and it results in tears and a fight.
She states that her mother would always "pick" on her about cleaning up and it was "never good enough... do why try"
My mother-in-law was a wonderful person and I miss her.
I guess since all of our parents are dead it is easier to think about separation. Either way I know that people will be hurt if i stay, and people will be hurt if I go. 
My choices are to stay and "try" to work out "my" problems (1. Which probably consist of being firm... uh maybe, and anticipating her social needs. This is what seems to be killing me, because I have held in my frustration and feelings and made myself sick in the past. 2. confront her about the hoarding and have another fight, but press through. Not sure this is wise) OR go, and take 10 years of life and a relationship and convert it into the Black and Red accounting principles of a separation of property and debts; this is also a dismal thought. Not to mention, the impact on our 10 & 7 year olds


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

I will inquire about that.
Did I mention she is an RN?
Im a pretty sharp knife in the cabinet with everything EXCEPT medicine, so this may be an uphill battle.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> She states that it is security.
> the statements are:
> 1. "You do all the little things, which is good. But you need to be there for me"
> 2. Your opinions are too critical of others you need to change your beliefs and not act like were still in that "cult"
> 3. When I need you the most, you are not there.


Try showing compassion without enabling. 

Treat the hoarding as an addiction

Study up on accountability of those with addictions

Addictions cause those who have them to choose destructive behaviors to themselves and those around them. You have to choose to no longer partner with her in the destructive behavior and ONLY partner with her in constructive behaviors and show compassion until the transition is made and beyond.

She is speaking heart issues... you are speaking to do list... in her eyes...


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

I have suggested couples therapy recently (~6 months). Long ago she suggested it and I said no. This is now used as ammunition and the problem is with "me" not her.

Believe it or not, I have 6 years of dealing with rowdy adult Tech school students, I am a Black Belt in Kenpo Karate, and I STILL hate confrontations! This is especially true with someone I made a vow to!!!

Im weighting the consequences of leaving. ... and since this is the internet, I will be very blunt. Im emotionally and psychologically starving for friendship and companionship that is meaningful.

I have noticed over the years, probably due to our schedules, that we do not have a lot (if any) of friends. Most of my social contacts are at the Dojo or a (very) few at church. I feel isolated, and this is usually something that I hear about with women in controlling relationships- not men!!
It's almost easy to believe that I AM the problem and not her. Like I said I don't like confrontation, but I at that point where I will not make my self sick from this. do you really think following through on a "counter ultimatum" (because she gave me one last month) will be the best option?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Detach and focus on constructive behaviors for yourself. And you could possibly try this...

I had to view my husbands anger as an addiction and this is what I told him six months ago...

"Your anger is excessive and beyond my ability to handle it. I need for you to address it with a professional counselor. I am requiring this be done by the first of the year and if not, we will be separating. If you still refuse to have it addressed with a professional, you will be choosing to risk divorce with me."

If you are honest and tell her it is beyond your ability to cope and that she needs to choose better and with the help of a professional, then it won't be on you. Her choices will be what determines action from that point.

Your lifestyle is totally unsustainable.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

I have suggested couples therapy recently (~6 months). Long ago she suggested it and I said no. This is now used as ammunition and the problem is with "me" not her.

Believe it or not, I have 6 years of dealing with rowdy adult Tech school students, I am a Black Belt in Kenpo Karate, and I STILL hate confrontations! This is especially true with someone I made a vow to!!!

Im weighting the consequences of leaving. ... and since this is the internet, I will be very blunt. Im emotionally and psychologically starving for friendship and companionship that is meaningful.

I have noticed over the years, probably due to our schedules, that we do not have a lot (if any) of friends. Most of my social contacts are at the Dojo or a (very) few at church. I feel isolated, and this is usually something that I hear about with women in controlling relationships- not men!!
It's almost easy to believe that I AM the problem and not her. Like I said I don't like confrontation, but I at that point where I will not make my self sick from this. do you really think following through on a "counter ultimatum" (because she gave me one last month) will be the best option?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

duck-man said:


> I have suggested couples therapy recently (~6 months). Long ago she suggested it and I said no. This is now used as ammunition and the problem is with "me" not her.
> 
> Believe it or not, I have 6 years of dealing with rowdy adult Tech school students, I am a Black Belt in Kenpo Karate, and I STILL hate confrontations! This is especially true with someone I made a vow to!!!
> 
> ...


Dude, she gave you an "out" and you didnt take it! You should have! Your chances of her having some sort of epiphany and changing her ways are all but nil. Issue your ultimatum, and FOLLOW THROUGH. You deserve to have a better life than this.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I recommend the following. It's what I did, however our issues were not as huge as yours.

Make two lists.

The first list is all the things you want from your marriage that you're not getting.

The second list is all the things you want from yourself that you're not getting.

Pick the top thing on both of those lists and work on each one.

Me? I'd start with the need for you to raise your kids according to your values for the marriage and the need for you to have good friendships outside the marriage.

Just sit her down and tell her about your daughters. "Wife, we are raising our kids to be [slobs, hoarders, whatever you want to call it]. It ends today. That means X and Y and Z." Then go make X and Y and Z happen. Make X and Y and Z to have little, if anything, to do with your wife.

Then go out and get some buddies. I struggle with this daily. Like me, you spend your life outside your job and marriage on the tatami. Take some friendships off the mat. Go to the pub or the pool hall or just watch a football game together. Clears the mind.

Once you've made traction on these 2, start on the next 2. Move the bar even a little every day and in a year you'll be in a different place. With her or without her.

Hajime!


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

So - make a counselling appointment and tell her when it is. Then go. If she goes with you or shows up, great. If she doesn't, keep seeing the counselor yourself and start planning for separation. Don't listen to any of her arguments about counselling. You need it so just do it. 

I think the hoarding by itself would make me throw up my hands in exasperation and make me want to get the kids out of there. I feel for you. I hadn't thought of it as an addiction as one previous poster mentioned, but that seems true and so seems like you should approach as such.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet? Do that first. Get it today.

Second, uh, is your wife the only person who can teach your daughters to not be slobs? Be a man, and tell your CHILDREN that they will pick up or they will suffer consequences. Go put your plate away and I'll turn the tv back on. Pick up your wet towel or go to your room. And besides, they're old enough to have chores now.

Third, don't waste money on MC. It won't work, when you are so beta. What you really need is for YOU to go to IC by yourself and learn to start standing up for yourself.

Fourth, address the hoarding by informing the FAMILY that, starting August, the house will begin to be culled and you will be taking items to Good Will on a monthly basis until the house is under control. They have the option to choose what to get rid of and, if they don't, you will make the decision for them.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> First, have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet? Do that first. Get it today.
> 
> Second, uh, is your wife the only person who can teach your daughters to not be slobs? Be a man, and tell your CHILDREN that they will pick up or they will suffer consequences. Go put your plate away and I'll turn the tv back on. Pick up your wet towel or go to your room. And besides, they're old enough to have chores now.
> 
> ...


Especially, now that you are aware, choosing to not stand up makes you complicit in the state of your home going forward.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> First, have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet? Do that first. Get it today.
> 
> Second, uh, is your wife the only person who can teach your daughters to not be slobs? Be a man, and tell your CHILDREN that they will pick up or they will suffer consequences. Go put your plate away and I'll turn the tv back on. Pick up your wet towel or go to your room. And besides, they're old enough to have chores now.
> 
> ...


I am an 8 year veteran of the U.S. Army. I learned to lead by example and make it a point to say: 

"... do you see dad leave his underwear in the bathroom? . . . give me that towel I'm doing the wash... does dad leave his cup and plate out or do I put it in the washer??"

As for doing a weekly purge, Ive tried this with limited success. When I clean up her mess, she gets very angry and says that I threw out some of her good stuff (God only knows what that was) and one time, we (Not sure if it was me or her) lost the Title to one of our cars because she was going to register it! The car broke down 2 weeks after we contacted the owner and had a lost title filed, re inspection, and new tags, plates and Title!



I do my dead-level best to lead by example, albeit sometimes out of frustration too.

I think MC is marriage counseling, but is IC Individual counseling?

Please let me know


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

firebelly1 said:


> So - make a counselling appointment and tell her when it is. Then go. If she goes with you or shows up, great. If she doesn't, keep seeing the counselor yourself and start planning for separation. Don't listen to any of her arguments about counselling. You need it so just do it.
> 
> I think the hoarding by itself would make me throw up my hands in exasperation and make me want to get the kids out of there. I feel for you. I hadn't thought of it as an addiction as one previous poster mentioned, but that seems true and so seems like you should approach as such.


Thanks
Im beginning to wonder if I am a victim of Stockholm syndrome. I also have called to schedule an appointment, one last time with a psychologist.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> I am an 8 year veteran of the U.S. Army. I learned to lead by example and make it a point to say:
> 
> "... do you see dad leave his underwear in the bathroom? . . . give me that towel I'm doing the wash... does dad leave his cup and plate out or do I put it in the washer??"


Thats guilting and shaming and produces the opposite effect of what you want.

You want partnership in constructive behaviors. Cast that vision FIRST... "Going forward this family is going to choose better, because there is much benefit to choosing better. If better choices are not made, consequences will happen."

Do not point to yourself... just state the plan, then follow it yourself and enact consequences consistently until they realize you are serious.

When wife gets pissy, tell her she has a choice... either get on board the constructive train or not, her choice, but the train is ONLY moving forward... not back. If she chooses to stay behind, you will allow her that choice, but it will cost her you in her life.

Stop traveling two miles with people who are traveling in the wrong direction.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

marduk said:


> I recommend the following. It's what I did, however our issues were not as huge as yours.
> 
> Make two lists.
> 
> ...


Thanks

Any ideas when I say: "we are raising our kids to be [slobs, hoarders, whatever you want to call it]. It ends today. That means X and Y and Z."
... and the argument starts. Which will usually begin like "..Until you meet what I NEED..."

to which II could say:
"Im not talking about that Im addressing another problem which is the hoarding.."
I don't really have a plan beyond that.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

That's a power grab... typical of addicts.

She is guilting you to submit to her addiction

Get the book Emotional Blackmail

She doesn't want you to gain power and control, so she is pushing you down by emotional blackmail to control that OR she will HAVE to face change.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

how about simplifying your life.

Give up the dogs. They are just extra work.

Put your girls in public school. Religion seems to have F'ed the two of you up pretty good, don't make the same mistake for your kids. Let them grow up in a balanced society, not some whacko religious situation.

Get a big bunch of plastic lawn bags, go thru the house, and throw out or donate most of the crap in there. Be merciless. Get rid of it.

Hire a maid to come in once a week to do the basic cleaning.

Get your slovenly wife out of the house and into a gym. If she still has mental issues after that, drag her to a shrink. If she refuses that...time to be thinking divorce.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thats guilting and shaming and produces the opposite effect of what you want.
> 
> You want partnership in constructive behaviors. Cast that vision FIRST... "Going forward this family is going to choose better, because there is much benefit to choosing better. If better choices are not made, consequences will happen."
> 
> ...


I guess Im over compensating for the old cliche "DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO".
Ive tried the pep-talk of this:

"Listen girls: one day you will be grown up and it's important that you know how to take care of yourselves. If you develop good habits it makes life easier..."

I probably don't do that enough. Im trying to keep a level head but im frustrated!!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

duck-man said:


> As for doing a weekly purge, Ive tried this with limited success. When I clean up her mess, she gets very angry and says that I threw out some of her good stuff (God only knows what that was) and one time, we (Not sure if it was me or her) lost the Title to one of our cars because she was going to register it! The car broke down 2 weeks after we contacted the owner and had a lost title filed, re inspection, and new tags, plates and Title!


"Wife, I'm clearing room X out by Y. You better have anything important gone by that time, because I'm restoring it to conditions your husband deems worthy of continued habitation by my children."


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Thanks
> 
> Any ideas when I say: "we are raising our kids to be [slobs, hoarders, whatever you want to call it]. It ends today. That means X and Y and Z."
> ... and the argument starts. Which will usually begin like "..Until you meet what I NEED..."
> ...


Smile, nod, and tell her what she needs has nothing to do with X and Y and Z because you are the one that's going to make X and Y and Z happen. She is to stay out of it if she can't support it.

There is no argument. Walk away.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Im trying to keep a level head but im frustrated!!


This is a great story, I'm sure you can relate:
"The Luxury of Anger

by Dave Lowry

According to the thinking of many of the swordsmen of old Japan, there were four basic "sicknesses" to which the martial artist could fall victim. The sicknesses are fear, doubt, worry, and surprise. Many of the spiritual elements and much of the psychological training in the budo now, as then, has been directed at overcoming or preventing these illnesses. To that list of four I think it might be wise to add one more affliction that is just as deadly and insidious as the other four. To that list I would add the sickness of anger.

"A man is like steel," goes a Japanese proverb (and the advice applies equally well to women, I hasten to add); "once he loses his temper he is worthless." My sensei had a different, rather more direct way of expressing the same sentiment. He brought it to my attention one afternoon when he was teaching me out in a meadow below an old cemetery near his home. We were practicing with wooden swords. At that time in my training with him I was experiencing a phenomenon every serious budoka has encountered at one point or another. I was forgetting the kata. I had reached a stage of learning where sections of the different kata I had been taught were getting muddled in my mind. The movements of different kata were running together. Even more infuriating, during the execution of the sequence of a particular kata all of a sudden I would draw a blank. Some of these movements I had been doing regularly for more than a year or two, and suddenly, to my tremendous frustration, they were gone, vanished from my brain. My body would stop as if my nerves and muscles had short-circuited. It was maddening. It was especially hard to bear for someone like me who has a pathetically low frustration level. It was even worse because when I stalled, Sensei, who was acting as my opponent in the kata, would simply stand there, expressionless, waiting for me to execute a technique I could not for the life of me produce.

"Shimatta zo!" I finally snapped in exasperation at my own stupidity.

Sensei's response was so fast it was completed, over, long before I realized it had started, in less time than it took me to complete the interjection. He snapped his wooden sword against mine and flicked it over, using the powerful force of his hips, in an action that took my weapon right out of my hands. My sword wheeled over in the air a few times and bounced off the ground. Simultaneously, I was left with the distinct sensation that my wrists had just been yanked off of my forearms.

"Anger is a luxury," he said quietly. "One that you cannot afford."
The Luxury of Anger​


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> I guess Im over compensating for the old cliche "DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO".
> Ive tried the pep-talk of this:
> 
> "Listen girls: one day you will be grown up and it's important that you know how to take care of yourselves. If you develop good habits it makes life easier..."
> ...


Totally get that... I've been known to overcompensate as well. All of you need to choose better. It needs to become the new culture in your family. You are the holder of that vision. Cast it and keep casting it until consistency throughout the system is obtained.

BUT A KEY COMPONENT IS CONSEQUENCES FOR POOR CHOICES.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

The kids are simple.....tell them what to do, and tell them what will happen if they don't do it. AND THEN FOLLOW THROUGH. No explaination needed, no discussion, nothing. They will throw fits and whine and have tantrums, but once they realize they don't get what they want without doing thier chores? They will catch on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> As for doing a weekly purge, I've tried this with limited success. When I clean up her mess, she gets very angry and says that I threw out some of her good stuff


So what?

I'm married to a hoarder. After 35 years, we have come to an agreement: If something is left in ANY spot aside from his one agreed-upon 'office,' it's fair game and I can do anything I want with it. He doesn't like it? Tough. Sounds like I'm more alpha than you are. 

So, basically, you are afraid of her anger, so you have let your entire marriage and family fall by the wayside in your ineffective attempt to get her to stop using the threat of anger to control you. IC is individual counseling, for YOU. 

I'll say it again: if you tell her ahead of time that anything not put away in a specific place that is NOT IN THE PUBLIC parts of the house, it's gone. I did it with my daughter and I did it with my husband. He's gotten mad at me a couple times and I just shrug and say 'I TOLD you that if you left anything in the living room, I had the right to throw it away. You then CHOSE to leave it out; you gave me permission to throw it away. Maybe next time, you'll put it out of sight.'

Why can't you just say that?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> So what?
> 
> I'm married to a hoarder. After 35 years, we have come to an agreement: If something is left in ANY spot aside from his one agreed-upon 'office,' it's fair game and I can do anything I want with it. He doesn't like it? Tough. Sounds like I'm more alpha than you are.
> 
> ...


Yep... unhook yourself FROM her unreasonable emotional tantrums and totally hook yourself TO your reasonable plan.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> I am an 8 year veteran of the U.S. Army. I learned to lead by example and make it a point to say:
> 
> "... do you see dad leave his underwear in the bathroom? . . . give me that towel I'm doing the wash... does dad leave his cup and plate out or do I put it in the washer??"


Please understand that this is NOT the same thing as being a leader of your family. You're the adult, they are the children, and it is YOUR JOB to set RULES that they are then expected to follow. Your job is NOT to make them happy, and if they get angry, well, they're free to do so. You do them no favors by trying to 'nice' them into doing what you want. All that does is raise entitled slobs. Who grow up to be entitled slob wives of some other unlucky men.

Do your job.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Thanks
> Im beginning to wonder if I am a victim of Stockholm syndrome. I also have called to schedule an appointment, one last time with a psychologist.


Ask yourself this: would I have accepted this behavior when we were just dating? (I hope not; if so, you have bigger problems) If not, then stop accepting it now. Every time she does something that makes you question whether she's right in doing it, ask yourself if you would have gone along with it when you were dating. If the answer is no, then tell HER no.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Any ideas when I say: "we are raising our kids to be [slobs, hoarders, whatever you want to call it]. It ends today. That means X and Y and Z."
> ... and the argument starts. Which will usually begin like "..Until you meet what I NEED..."
> 
> to which I could say:
> "I'm not talking about that I'm addressing another problem which is the hoarding.."


Read MMSLP. It will make a lot more sense of all this. 

Again, who cares if she argues? Her arguing is just her manipulating you in a way she knows works, to put an end to any changes, as SHE is happy with the status quo. Your job is to say "I'm happy to discuss any unmet needs in therapy with you. I won't discuss them outside of therapy. But we WILL begin cleaning this house up, and it WILL start today."

Basically, you cut the matter short. She can't argue with you if you don't participate.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> Read MMSLP. It will make a lot more sense of all this.
> 
> Again, who cares if she argues? Her arguing is just her manipulating you in a way she knows works, to put an end to any changes, as SHE is happy with the status quo. Your job is to say "I'm happy to discuss any unmet needs in therapy with you. I won't discuss them outside of therapy. But we WILL begin cleaning this house up, and it WILL start today."
> 
> Basically, you cut the matter short. She can't argue with you if you don't participate.


I cant get a clear picture on whether she is mentally ill or just a BRAT. If she understands yes and no... that tells me she has the capacity to make different choices and just has been enabled all this time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Ive tried the pep-talk


You are their FATHER!

You don't OWE them a pep talk. You owe them RULES and STRUCTURE and CONSEQUENCES. Mad at you? Good. It means they're paying attention. 

Since you have so much trouble standing up the women in your life, try this. Write out a list for the kids. On the left, the chores that must be done. On the right, the consequence for that chore NOT being done. Tape it on the wall. Inform them this is the new rules and they're free to follow them or not (take the emotion out of it), and they will then enjoy the consequences. No skin off YOUR nose.

The left side will look like picking up towels, dishes in the dishwasher, feeding dogs, hanging up clothes, vacuuming the living room. The right side will look like no phone til it's done, no computer til it's done, no tv til it's done, no play dates til it's done (haven't you ever heard of 'you can't go play until your room is clean'?).


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Emotional terrorism works because you get sucked into their emotional environment. Then they're in control, because it's their emotions you're both concerned about, and they pull the strings on their emotions as needed.

Once you don't, things become easier.

"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing."
- Dune

Right now, she can destroy the household environment, raising your kids well, your sex life, and your emotional state. Which is why she is in control.

Once you can destroy her emotional terrorism, you will regain control over yourself.

And, perhaps, your marriage.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

marduk said:


> Emotional terrorism works because you get sucked into their emotional environment. Then they're in control, because it's their emotions you're both concerned about, and they pull the strings on their emotions as needed.
> 
> Once you don't, things become easier.
> 
> ...


Love it.... emotional terrorism... filing that term in my arsenal of knowledge against abuse. Thanks!!!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Love it.... emotional terrorism... filing that term in my arsenal of knowledge against abuse. Thanks!!!


A decent working definition of Emotional Terrorism is "If mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

Or the more colloquial and innocuous "happy wife, happy life."

Can apply to anyone, male or female, spouse, parent, child, friend, anyone.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Its a perfect term.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> That's a power grab... typical of addicts.
> 
> She is guilting you to submit to her addiction
> 
> ...


So,
You really think we have a case of Stockholm syndrome going on here? My gut tells me to listen, but my pride wants to deny this!
I feel tired inside from apparent calm and then the blow ups where it's "My fault"
the baggage of a "cult" seems to haunt us; although, I feel over it and have grown in the last 10 years. Apparently it's never enough!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> So,
> You really think we have a case of Stockholm syndrome going on here? My gut tells me to listen, but my pride wants to deny this!
> I feel tired inside from apparent calm and then the blow ups where it's "My fault"
> the baggage of a "cult" seems to haunt us; although, I feel over it and have grown in the last 10 years. Apparently it's never enough!


It is a possibility, yet yours doesn't feel like a strong case of it compared to others I've seen on here. So be encouraged in your growth you DO have and take it to the next level.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

marduk said:


> This is a great story, I'm sure you can relate:
> "The Luxury of Anger
> 
> by Dave Lowry
> ...


thanks, I needed that reminder


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> Ask yourself this: would I have accepted this behavior when we were just dating? (I hope not; if so, you have bigger problems) If not, then stop accepting it now. Every time she does something that makes you question whether she's right in doing it, ask yourself if you would have gone along with it when you were dating. If the answer is no, then tell HER no.


That was another early problem. I was trying to be "honorable" and keep an acceptable distance from her so people would not think that we were "fornicating" before marriage. (Remember I was in a very strict cult-like church) So I didn't know about her hoarding until after we were married!

Now I live with the consequences. I'm beginning to think one last ultimatum is in order, and then if there is no change, separation.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

duck-man said:


> That was another early problem. I was trying to be "honorable" and keep an acceptable distance from her so people would not think that we were "fornicating" before marriage. (Remember I was in a very strict cult-like church) So I didn't know about her hoarding until after we were married!
> 
> Now I live with the consequences. I'm beginning to think one last ultimatum is in order, and then if there is no change, separation.


Begin at the beginning, man.

You do karate, right?

Do you do your shodan test on day 1? On day 10? On day 100?

No. There's a lot you need to get sorted to get on the path where you're ready for shodan. You have to get your stance right, your breathing right, the footwork, that stuff. The names, the movement. The kata. The wasa. All that stuff.

Then you do shodan.

I recommend you begin at the beginning. What's step 1? What's your highest priority? What tangible action can you take to make that happen with or without your wife?

Go do that.

Once you have momentum, she's a bit afraid, and she know's you're serious and capable of carrying it out, then you draw a line in the sand.

Not before.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

marduk said:


> Begin at the beginning, man.
> 
> You do karate, right?
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was thinking without knowing how to say it...

You have no structure with which to deliver an ultimatum from.. thus she will see it for the shell that it is and flick you like a flea and not break a sweat and quite possibly laugh in your face.

Develop the vision
Develop the system
Develop the delivery,

in that order

like Marduk said...


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> how about simplifying your life.
> 
> Give up the dogs. They are just extra work.
> 
> ...


I appreciate that

I need a way to find pressure to exert in a positive way on the family, but I cannot give up on God. I've seen too much, experienced too much and learned too much not to believe, trust and ... obey.
thanks


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I cant get a clear picture on whether she is mentally ill or just a BRAT. If she understands yes and no... that tells me she has the capacity to make different choices and just has been enabled all this time.


well, this is where it gets sticky
She has always been over weight, or she would like to say, that at one point she was morbidly obese.
She was adopted, and had an emotionally abusive father. 
he was an insurance salesman, philanderer, and couldn't see he did any wrong to anyone.
She told me years ago she was in a depressed state about the past, but over came that before we met. She even stated she was OK with being single the rest of her life, but we met and things seemed to work out. She is very head strong and can sense body language and if something is ethically or socially wrong. She has a high success ratio in this area. She will even admit "Yeah, Im a slob" (gee thats comforting honey!)

A troubling thing, besides that is she tells people from time to time this:
"I never thought i would be married... but I was BORN TO BE AN EX WIFE"
We have had discussions about planting seeds and the danger, but comments like this and an argument with words like:

"Maybe when you have your next wife and find out just how good I was to you that you will regret...."

Ive also bore the brunt of:
"If you want to live with you up stairs and me in the Basement, im OK with that, but if you ever cheat on me, NEVER touch me again"

Frankly, I'm tired and am beginning to wish I could start over with a more compatible person!

After 10 years I haven't sorted through her baggage, because the hoarding seems to be mental as well!!


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

marduk said:


> Begin at the beginning, man.
> 
> You do karate, right?
> 
> ...


I see a plan developing, and I understand this terminology quite well

P.S.

He's a Shichidan (7th degree)
... soon to be Hachidan .......... and he can kick my butt!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> That was another early problem. I was trying to be "honorable" and keep an acceptable distance from her so people would not think that we were "fornicating" before marriage. (Remember I was in a very strict cult-like church) So I didn't know about her hoarding until after we were married!
> 
> Now I live with the consequences. I'm beginning to think one last ultimatum is in order, and then if there is no change, separation.


Actually, I wasn't talking about the hoarding, but your acceptance of her controlling tactics.

And I think you are jumping to the gun of dumping her because it sounds easy and it keeps you from having to do YOUR hard work.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She has developed a *dont give a sh!t* attitude...

Apathy will be tough to overcome.

Have you read the 180?

Quit worrying about her tactics and focus on thd new structure you intend on creating for you and the kids...

By the way.. the hard work Turnera is teferring to is not for the faint of heart. When you challenge the status quo... Be ready for the fireworks. Develop zero tolerance for hateful behavior.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's another book - quick, easy read - that might help you see things easier. It's highly recommended by therapists. Written for women, as they are usually (at least used to be) the ones who can't say no. How to stop doing it without the people you say no to getting mad at you. It's called The Dance Of Anger, by Harriet Lerner.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> Actually, I wasn't talking about the hoarding, but your acceptance of her controlling tactics.
> 
> And I think you are jumping to the gun of dumping her because it sounds easy and it keeps you from having to do YOUR hard work.


Hard work:
I think I''ve done quite a bit of hard work, but not SMART work.

She dropped the challenge of separation on me twice, and I have turned the other cheek.

I do not think i can withstand a third time. Im not going back to a psychologist because I bottled up the anxiety and am suffering from it. Im keeping separation on the table.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> You are their FATHER!
> 
> You don't OWE them a pep talk. You owe them RULES and STRUCTURE and CONSEQUENCES. Mad at you? Good. It means they're paying attention.
> 
> ...


Perhaps I was too vague.
I CAN get them to clean and comply, but they are also little people that I try to talk to and get to know.
I was accused by my wife of being too harsh, and she even threatened me about my child rearing.
We have agreed on structure and consequences, but she gets "too tired" to deal with X, Y, or Z and all the structure is not reinforced in my absence so were back to square #1

I keep enforcing, cleaning and trying to keep my calm but all the hard work is quickly undone!

The girls told me today they hate living in a messy place. thats good, but I don't want to manipulate or even suggest that mommy is the problem- although my 10 year old has figured it out.

I can leave for work in the afternoon and things are acceptable. When I come home late at night the house feels hostile due to the fact that NO ONE has made an attempt to at least maintain even a mediocre standard!

When I do mention it, I get the "My mother would say that, and if thats the case WHY EVEN TRY?"

I feel just like the Norse men in Valhalla who were fighting the Ice gods (Ragnarok), and it was per-determined it was a battle they were to lose!

The hose feels like a hostile environment
And try as I may I cannot get around the argument "WHY EVEN TRY?"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I know that this might sound odd... do you think that your wife would bend if people other than you made comments on how badly she keeps the house and her hording?

Post pictures of the house and get people to comment. if you want to do it anonymously just get a free website and then direct people to it.. .like people here. 

Then show your wife the comments.

I know.. it sounds crazy. But maybe it might help?


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Love it.... emotional terrorism... filing that term in my arsenal of knowledge against abuse. Thanks!!!


I guess I have some reading to do. Between attempting therapy and reading Emotional blackmail I may be busy!


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I know that this might sound odd... do you think that your wife would bend if people other than you made comments on how badly she keeps the house and her hording?
> 
> Post pictures of the house and get people to comment. if you want to do it anonymously just get a free website and then direct people to it.. .like people here.
> 
> ...


Presently, she has permanently broken off relations with her best friend, for the SECOND time.
I talked to her today, even through, my wife said not to anymore (Shes a jolly, chubby 61 year old grandma whos a bit scatter brained, but our girls called her Grandma R---) R--- has seen the house at its best and worst and has tried to reason. We don't have very many mutual friends left between the two of us, and I think if I post some of the pictures it would be like a nuclear bomb!

Incidentally, I did show a neutral 3rd party where she sleeps and they were aghast.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Then Nuke away... I'm sorry, but the whiny "my mother would say that, so why even try" sounds EXTREMELY childish. 

Two questions... What exactly are you saying...

And if one of your daughters gave you that excuse what would your response to her be?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> We have agreed on structure and consequences, but she gets "too tired" to deal with X, Y, or Z and all the structure is not reinforced in my absence so were back to square #1
> 
> I keep enforcing, cleaning and trying to keep my calm but all the hard work is quickly undone!


Hogwash. 

If they fail to do the work while you are gone, you simply ENFORCE THE CONSEQUENCES when you get HOME. Two or three times...guess what? They figure it out. Haven't you ever heard of 'wait til your dad gets home'?

What's missing is YOUR consistency.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> I think if I post some of the pictures it would be like a nuclear bomb!


As usual, you make your choices based on not angering your wife.

Beta.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

duck-man said:


> I feel just like the Norse men in Valhalla who were fighting the Ice gods (Ragnarok), and it was per-determined it was a battle they were to lose!
> 
> The hose feels like a hostile environment
> And try as I may I cannot get around the argument "WHY EVEN TRY?"


All of us will die.

How many of us will truly live before we do so?

Torii Mototada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Here is how you get past "why even try"


That is essence is her holding herself hostage to her own past and expects you to participate in it.

You can choose not to participate.

"why even try? because you are better than this, wife. And I expect different, that's why."


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Ok
Just tried to have a conversation with wife and she laid out the gauntlet of the big "D"

I took off my glasses and said I wasn't afraid of divorce.

The reply was that our 10 year old was suicidal and it would destroy her. This made a 1 hour heated discussion / debate that I never put her needs or anyone elses first.
In fact, I needed to think of our children's needs before my own and quit being selfish!!!

Now I'm a bit confused. Separation was her idea, and turned out to be a bluff.

It's ok to live in different areas of the house because she is happy like this, and I need to learn to be happy like this as well.

What!?

I was given examples of my mother's life (She was a bitter person I admit) and her mother's life (A very sweet woman who had been through a lot of Hell) There was a lot of emotion that I have insulted her by not listening to her over the years (13 to be exact, and weve only been married close to 11!)

Case in point:

1.I need to be happy with this arrangement, 
2. Show her Im happy
3. Anticipate her needs by taking a step back and putting everyone else first, because I'm selfish.
4. The house is clean now (Only because we had an anonymous allegation from DFS, which apologized after coming over) and don't worry about the stuff in the dining room it's going to a friend for a missions trip. (Gee what about the garage and the back lawn that I have to do by myself!!)

The bluff was called, but now what?

BTW she won't go to counseling with me until steps 1-3 are done because she has told em this for 13 years!

I don't want to hurt my daughters emotionally with this, but am I being selfish because I want a change either to have my wife and friend back or to just walk away?

She assures me that things won't get better, but worse because I won't be happy, and the problem is me

Never mind the Dogs, house, or the fact that she has no friends outside of her work (12 shifts as an RN compared to my friends at Karate)

Im scheduling an appointment with a family counsellor and repeatedly asked her to go with me during this conversation, she said NO, smirked, rolled her eyes and was silent (either / or and all of the above when we had our 1 1/2 hour conversation today)

I cannot live like this!!!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> Ok
> 
> 
> The reply was that our 10 year old was suicidal and it would destroy her.


Emotional terrorism..... blackmail....

Fear Obligation Guilt (F.O.G.) to coerce you into submission.

This is not ok.

"Wife, it is no ok for you to emotionally blackmail me, especially using our kids as part of your emotional weapon. If you cannot refrain, I will be separating from you. If you continue to use said behavior following that, you are choosing to risk divorce with me."


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> I cannot live like this!!!



You are right... the choice now is to stay different or leave. 

Right now you are attempting to stay different.

If she cannot get on board.....

You will eventually leave.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

More doormat. I applaud you for trying, though. You just aren't skilled enough yet to withstand her quite brilliant manipulation. Does she get it honestly?

Tell her you are putting your daughters in counseling (you know, to avoid the suicidal card) and you are seeing a lawyer next week to see what your options are.

And pick up MMSLP on your way home. Sit down, start reading it, and let her deal with everything for a change.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow! Talk about living in total denial! 

Tell her to take her list of demands and toss them on the piles of other sh!t she has stacked up everywhere. Then inform her that you are leaving and taking the girls with you, away from the sh!thole of a house you have all been stuck living in. Then do it. 

You change nothing, then nothing changes.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

"Wife, for me to continue being a husband I expect to sleep in the same bed with my wife, have sex with my wife, and live in a house with more air than garbage. 

If you can't accept that, you're choosing to no longer be my wife. If you are going to continue to be my wife those three things are going to happen. This is reasonable. 

What's not going to happen is for me to give up on any of these three reasonable things. I expect an answer in the next 24 hours. If you don't answer anything but a 'Yes' that will mean 'No' and we separate and get lawyers involved immediately."

Say it slowly, clearly, and only once. Do not repeat yourself. Do not explain yourself.

When you are done, turn around and walk away.

If she tries to start a conversation with anything that doesn't start with a "Yes" walk away.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

marduk said:


> "Wife, for me to continue being a husband I expect to sleep in the same bed with my wife, have sex with my wife, and live in a house with more air than garbage.
> 
> If you can't accept that, you're choosing to no longer be my wife. If you are going to continue to be my wife those three things are going to happen. This is reasonable.
> 
> ...



1000% agree!


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> More doormat. I applaud you for trying, though. You just aren't skilled enough yet to withstand her quite brilliant manipulation. Does she get it honestly?
> 
> Tell her you are putting your daughters in counseling (you know, to avoid the suicidal card) and you are seeing a lawyer next week to see what your options are.
> 
> And pick up MMSLP on your way home. Sit down, start reading it, and let her deal with everything for a change.


What is MMSLP?
I'm not familiar with that.

Also, I don't know if I mentioned it, but my oldest is in counseling due to the death of all 4 of her grandparents in the last 10 months.

The counselor told me on Monday that My 10- year old was not in crisis and we could go for 2 weeks without an appointment.

Right now, my plan is to:

1. see a marriage counselor (Appoint made for next week)
2. See a psychologist (Just to make sure there is nothing wrong with me - well duh I should know shouldn't I  )
3. Repeatedly offer her to come along
4. investigate Family lawyers that handle divorce and bankruptcy

I also went to Alibris.com and purchased a copy of Emotional blackmail. that's on my to do list


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Here is how you get past "why even try"
> 
> 
> That is essence is her holding herself hostage to her own past and expects you to participate in it.
> ...


WOW
thats some good stuff!


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Then Nuke away... I'm sorry, but the whiny "my mother would say that, so why even try" sounds EXTREMELY childish.
> 
> Two questions... What exactly are you saying...
> 
> And if one of your daughters gave you that excuse what would your response to her be?


When it comes to the girls, I tell them to turn off the TV and give them specific tasks to clean up

a. Trash: trash bag
b. TOYS: toy boxes
c. CLOTHES: Hamper
d. SHOES: closet

It's like a Yoga chant. 
Unless I micro manage, and stand over them it doesn't get done.

Since I don't get home from work until 1:15 or so, the follow up is lacking from me.

If my daughters used the "Why even TRY" I would inform them that life does not get easier as they get older, but harder, and basic skills like cleaning up after yourself, bathing and brushing your teeth (The 10 year old hates this and must be constantly reminded) will make life easier and make you feel better about yourself.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> When it comes to the girls, I tell them to turn off the TV and give them specific tasks to clean up
> 
> a. Trash: trash bag
> b. TOYS: toy boxes
> ...


Put it on a clock and inform them that when clock stops if its not done, consequence. They'll learn. Make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Since I don't get home from work until 1:15 or so, the follow up is lacking from me.


More excuses. The follow up can happen the minute you get home, the next hour, the next day, or the next MONTH. That's your right as their parent. 

"Kids, starting today, your chores WILL be done by the time I get home from work. For every piece of clothes/food/dishes I find out of place, you will BOTH get one day without electronics. And this will continue from now on. I suggest you get started."

MMSLP is a book that teaches you how to become alpha again. Basically the bible on how to be a man - and how to stop a woman from running you into the ground. You need to read it ASAP so you can understand what's wrong with your marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> If my daughters used the "Why even TRY" I would inform them that life does not get easier as they get older, but harder, and basic skills like cleaning up after yourself, bathing and brushing your teeth (The 10 year old hates this and must be constantly reminded) will make life easier and make you feel better about yourself.


"And because I said so. The next time you say 'why even try,' you will get TWO days without electronics."


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> "And because I said so. The next time you say 'why even try,' you will get TWO days without electronics."


I appreciate that sentiment.

I read another book Verbal Judo by George Thompson, and he warned against the statement ". . . because I said so"

I can do the consequences, but not that particular statement.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> More excuses. The follow up can happen the minute you get home, the next hour, the next day, or the next MONTH. That's your right as their parent.
> 
> "Kids, starting today, your chores WILL be done by the time I get home from work. For every piece of clothes/food/dishes I find out of place, you will BOTH get one day without electronics. And this will continue from now on. I suggest you get started."
> 
> MMSLP is a book that teaches you how to become alpha again. Basically the bible on how to be a man - and how to stop a woman from running you into the ground. You need to read it ASAP so you can understand what's wrong with your marriage.


Thanks 
I'm looking at the book online for purchase right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> I appreciate that sentiment.
> 
> I read another book Verbal Judo by George Thompson, and he warned against the statement ". . . because I said so"
> 
> I can do the consequences, but not that particular statement.


You're smart. Be creative. I just said because I'm the parent and you're not. Worked pretty well. Logic they can't argue.

And notice that I said the word 'and' so as to inform you that you say the other stuff and THEN add 'because I'm the parent and you're not.' 

I explained to my daughter that since I was the parent, it was my JOB to raise her in the best way possible, and part of that was ensuring that she knew how to keep a house clean, do chores when they needed done (not when she felt like it), and take care of her personal things. I explained that it was NOT negotiable, that those WERE her responsibilities, and that when she turned 18, she would be free to leave my horribly oppressive home and live like a slob somewhere else.

I don't know where people started thinking that you have to make your kids like you. They grow up to be better people if they just _respect _you. And no, being mad at your parent is NOT going to ruin you for life (unless you're being abusive or some such).

So I went and looked at the Verbal Judo stuff. Basically, it's training for how to deal mainly with corporations, people working for you, classrooms, places where you NEED their buy-in to get the job done. You have lost control of your kids and persuading them at this point is pointless. You need to restore the balance in your family that was lost when you went alpha. The man, psychologically speaking, needs to LEAD his family. That means that ALL the others need to understand that he is the final say; he will be fair, but he will be respected first. Your girls are so far into the kiss-my-ass-like-mommy-says spectrum that it's going to take some extra work for you to regain control. 

By the way, if you want to learn about the REAL preferred method for parenting, read about Authoritative Parenting (note this is NOT Authoritarian Parenting). It's along the lines of what you're saying, while you still retain control. You explain the rules that any safe and healthy household needs, you explain the consequences for not following the rules, and you step back, remove your emotion, and let them then choose whether to obey the rules or suffer the consequences. It takes the onus COMPLETELY off of you and onto their own shoulders:



> Parents with an authoritative parenting style establish rules and guidelines that their children are expected to follow. However, this parenting style is much more democratic. Authoritative parents are responsive to their children and willing to listen to questions. When children fail to meet the expectations, these parents are more nurturing and forgiving rather than punishing. Baumrind suggests that these parents "monitor and impart clear standards for their children’s conduct. They are assertive, but not intrusive and restrictive. Their disciplinary methods are supportive, rather than punitive. They want their children to be assertive as well as socially responsible, and self-regulated as well as cooperative"


http://psychology.about.com/od/developmentalpsychology/a/parenting-style.htm


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> During the 1960s, developmental psychologist Diana Baumrind described three different types of parenting styles based on her researcher with preschool-age children. One of the main parenting styles identified by Baumrind is known as the authoritative parenting style. This style of parenting is sometimes referred to as "democratic" and involves a child-centric approach in which parents hold high expectations for their children.
> 
> Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style
> 
> ...


Characteristics of the Authoritative Parenting Style


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> You're smart. Be creative. I just said because I'm the parent and you're not. Worked pretty well. Logic they can't argue.
> 
> And notice that I said the word 'and' so as to inform you that you say the other stuff and THEN add 'because I'm the parent and you're not.'
> 
> ...


Allow me to elaborate.

I liked the book because he included a portion of it on how to handle teenagers and how it works well.

My "wife" and I had some very heated arguments on my original parenting style and accused me of being verbally abusive because I will "bark orders" in a drill sergeant type mode.

It seems that I have been trying to appease due to guilt from the past and over compensation.

BTW, I got tender words this morning in the form of "..I do love you but I have been telling your counseling for years..."
Inside I felt cold because I feel emotionally starved for affection and do not want to re-enter this cycle again.

I have discussed this on this forum and am even talking about it to some trusted friends and acquaintances that I have. Im beginning to think maybe separation is the best way.

I need the emotional attachment, affection and sex, but now I'm not even promised that in the near future and she makes it seem like a task and I actually feel guilty and hurt when we finish because it seemed like an obligation. Her statement "..I do love you but.." made me think of this this morning.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

duck-man said:


> Allow me to elaborate.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Dude, I hate to say this, but this woman doesnt even LIKE you, let alone love you.  You really need to get yourself out of there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You've been taken for granted. The only way she'll ever wake up again and desire you is to see you headed for the door.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

intheory said:


> You said your wife is overweight (and has been morbidly obese).
> 
> What is she now? Roughly. Like, between 5'3" to 5'6" and 200#.
> 
> ...


She's about 5' 7" and over around 260lbs.
She has made the statement that she doesn't know what I see in her.
And I will admit that this is a problem.

My view point has always been "I made a Vow" but there are things that can be changed and controlled, and it seems I'm the only one in the relationship that is required to change!

I don't mind a woman with a few extra pounds or some cushioning, but there is a limit.

i must admit, I don't like seeing all these perspectives, because it makes me a little more bold, and at the same time sorry for the decisions I may have to make soon.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> You've been taken for granted. The only way she'll ever wake up again and desire you is to see you headed for the door.


If I make that decision, I'm sure I won't turn around, 

and thats scary!


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Dude, I hate to say this, but this woman doesnt even LIKE you, let alone love you.  You really need to get yourself out of there.


I hear what youre saying.

Still, this doesn't make it easier.

I never thought, in my wildest dreams that I would be on line having a discussion like this!

Saying "I love you" doesn't mean a thing if it's not demonstrated. and it is seeming more shallow, in light of the posts that have allowed me to parse this out.

This isn't easy


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

duck-man said:


> She's about 5' 7" and over around 260lbs.
> She has made the statement that she doesn't know what I see in her.
> And I will admit that this is a problem.
> 
> ...


Bold is ok. I got bold and it is doing wonders for our marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> If I make that decision, I'm sure I won't turn around,
> 
> and thats scary!


You know, I hear that all the time, from MANY people who can't decide to move out - that if they do, they will never ever give the spouse another chance. But psychologically speaking, that's really just not true for most people, even when they THINK they believe that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think she still likes you, maybe even still loves you. But it's obvious that HER issues outweigh any feelings she may have for you; basically, she's a screwed up self-loathing person who does what she knows: controls her situation (you are part of her situation). If she were ever to get to the place where she could strip down her walls, reach out and touch her vulnerability, hit rock bottom, and come up fresh, willing to be vulnerable with you and take a journey TOGETHER, you guys would have a chance. But again, psychologically speaking, you BEING there and ACCEPTING her shyte keeps her from HAVING to get there. Basically, you're enabling her bad behavior. Which is why I keep pushing to separate. You have to give people like her, who build up walls, a REASON to change. You living there, she has none.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

turnera said:


> I think she still likes you, maybe even still loves you. But it's obvious that HER issues outweigh any feelings she may have for you; basically, she's a screwed up self-loathing person who does what she knows: controls her situation (you are part of her situation). If she were ever to get to the place where she could strip down her walls, reach out and touch her vulnerability, hit rock bottom, and come up fresh, willing to be vulnerable with you and take a journey TOGETHER, you guys would have a chance. But again, psychologically speaking, you BEING there and ACCEPTING her shyte keeps her from HAVING to get there. Basically, you're enabling her bad behavior. Which is why I keep pushing to separate. You have to give people like her, who build up walls, a REASON to change. You living there, she has none.


That is exactly how I handled my H that produced change. Gave him a reason to by making him realize that my being around is NOT set in stone. Any good human has limits and he was knocking on mine HARD.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

What if you sat down and made a list of what she brought to the marriage?

Because it doesn't sound like much.

What if you made a list of all you could have if you weren't married any more?

Because it sounds like a lot.

What if you shared these two lists with your wife?

Right now she's a boat anchor in your life. And happy to be that way because perhaps of some mixture of:
- her needing to be in control
- her needing to bring everyone down to her level
- her needing to hate herself

At the end of the day NONE of these are your issue. These are hers. I'm sure you'd help her work on these if she wanted to; but she doesn't.

You don't have to live a **** life because she wants to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not a bad idea! Show her the list, and ask her why you should stay. See what she says.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I like the idea... he has to be aware that she will probably unleash on him. Might be premature... I would start building the vision, and the structure inspite of her first, working on myself... THEN do the list.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

turnera said:


> I think she still likes you, maybe even still loves you. But it's obvious that HER issues outweigh any feelings she may have for you; basically, she's a screwed up self-loathing person who does what she knows: controls her situation (you are part of her situation). If she were ever to get to the place where she could strip down her walls, reach out and touch her vulnerability, hit rock bottom, and come up fresh, willing to be vulnerable with you and take a journey TOGETHER, you guys would have a chance. But again, psychologically speaking, you BEING there and ACCEPTING her shyte keeps her from HAVING to get there. Basically, you're enabling her bad behavior. Which is why I keep pushing to separate. You have to give people like her, who build up walls, a REASON to change. You living there, she has none.


There was an adage from a Chinese book on War that said:

". . . know yourself and your enemy and win all of your battles"
-Sun Tzu

At 47 I know a lot of things about myself, and a decision like this is final. If we separate, due to the nature of things, I could easily find another healthy relationship to enter into and the separation would be FINAL.
I am starved for companionship! I have friends in Church, Yoga, Karate and Work. Social ties are easy for me to make. I work at a hospital (70% female staff) and as I begin to vent to friends, I see the potential to gain a lot for strength.

I'm beginning to feel the urge to "Cut and Run" so to speak.

In fact, a mutual friend (Her ex-best friend and husband will offer me a spare room)
I still owe it to her and my family to see a therapist, read MMLSP and Emotional Black mail AND make a true attempt to salvage this marriage. Even though I have muttered under my breath for about 3 years now "Is this some kind of sick joke?"

She had a dysfunctional relationship with her adopted father and can be the angry bull in the room. In fact, she has embarrassed friends in public because of some of her statements. She would sometimes complain about service or lack of service in restaurants, and I would get so embarrassed (Which is hard for me to get embarrassed) that I would walk out! I knew she had some esteem problems when we got married, but figured it would work out because I would treat her well.

Maybe for her to be a better person, and for me not to turn into a supine placater I need to seriously consider taking the FINAL step


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

marduk said:


> What if you sat down and made a list of what she brought to the marriage?
> 
> Because it doesn't sound like much.
> 
> ...


Its kinda hard to come to the realization that I have been controlled and manipulated, because that is what is thrown back in my face!

I fear if I think about this too long it will fester!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Its kinda hard to come to the realization that I have been controlled and manipulated, because that is what is thrown back in my face!
> 
> I fear if I think about this too long it will fester!


Truth is truth.

You cannot win battles that you don't know you are fighting.

You cannot win battles when your opponent controls the field.

You know this.


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## duck-man (Jul 28, 2014)

A FUNNY THING HAPPENED THIS FRIDAY:
In an attempt by my wife to break the ice, she wanted me to take her down town. I told her I had an appointment with a counselor (lawyer) and after a short argument about her trying and me not, I told her it was a lawyer.

Since then, there have been some serious conversations, and she woke me up in the morning (I work nights) early to pommel me with a few ideas . . . and offer sex and affection.

She stated that this was a wake up call and we needed to try, and she was willing to try.

I was also reminded by her of the "Biblical" grounds for Divorce
1) adultery 2) Abandonment

Im really leery about this change in events.

Attending counseling with me is now on the table (in 2 weeks because of her schedule)

To compound matters, I have verbalized my frustrations to a few associates at work, and received various opinions, to include a few women who are interested in me if I did take the BIG step and was single again!

I feel like a commodity on the market right now, and this opens up a whole realm of questions.

Im also reading Emotional Blackmail and can see patterns of my wife, my late Mother and even some of my supervisors!!

Any thoughts on this? (Marriage issues that is . . )


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

It sounds a bit like you are coming to the realisation that you don't actually love this person anymore. Completely understandable given the treatment you've received over the years. I imagine you probably care greatly about what happens to her, but as far as being interested in actual reconciliation, is it possible it's gone too far for that? How long would you be willing to give her to make all the necessary changes that she'd have to make to be the sort of spouse you'd actually want to stay with?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

duck-man said:


> Since then, there have been some serious conversations, and she woke me up in the morning (I work nights) early to pommel me with a few ideas . . . and offer sex and affection. She stated that this was a wake up call and we needed to try, and she was willing to try.


Yawn, more manipulation to keep her in control.

What else is new?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

duck-man said:


> I was also reminded by her of the "Biblical" grounds for Divorce
> 1) adultery 2) Abandonment


3) Abuse (emotional or physical)



duck-man said:


> To compound matters, I have verbalized my frustrations to a few associates at work, and received various opinions, to include a few women who are interested in me if I did take the BIG step and was single again!
> 
> I feel like a commodity on the market right now, and this opens up a whole realm of questions.


 It is fine to vent, but be very careful of venting to the opposite sex. That is how my (Christian) husband found himself in an Emotional Affair which got so deep he wanted to D me to marry her. The woman began the first conversation by saying how bad her marriage was, stroked his ego, and it didn't take long for him to realize he was also in a bad marriage. He didn't know she had done this before with married men, and now 5 years later he feels like an idiot for falling for her line. He also feels very bad for destroying the trust in our marriage.
Lean on your male friends right now.

Don't be flattered by women who you perceive would have an affair with you. If they will do it with you, they will do it to you later.

First things first: Fix you, decide if you will stay in your marriage, then if you D, consider other women.


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