# Why?



## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

I was thinking about this last night in regards to my situation (explained in other posts). My wife tells me she wants to seperate but now that we are at that point she asks if I think it's the right thing to do. During our last argument (after she stayed out til 2am) she told me that this is it and she is calling a lawyer to get a divorce (not the first time she's said this). But yet the very next day she calls TOM and supposedly breaks off the relationship with him. My wife has also said that she is so unhappy with me and the only reason she hasn't just split is because of our son and the fact that she doesn't want to ruin our family.

My question to all is...what do I make of this behavior? Am I just the safety net, which is why she hasn't just filed for divorce? She doesnt want to do anything like counseling or try to spend time together so she's not trying to make the situation better. After telling me she talked with TOM and broke it off she was completely crying and depressed, so I believe she did do that, yet when I asked her if he is still a friend of her facebook she said yes, which started another argument last night. 

I'd like anyone's thoughts on this. I'll be spending New Year's Eve alone as my wife is going out and staying over her girlfriends house. She doesn't think anything is wrong with that because her logic is that if she stayed home she would be miserable with me and suffer complete boredom, so that makes it ok for her to go out.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Why?

Because she doesn't want to be the bad parent in the eyes of your son. She wants to be able to say it was dad who wanted to divorce, it was dad who broke up our family, it was all dads fault. I don't know how old your son is but young kids are very easy to brainwash.
I came to find out after my wife finally moved out in Nov. that her goal had been make my life so miserable I would move out and file for divorce. She had told this to her friends who have since washed their hands of her because of her actions. Several affairs, lots and lots of lies, no help around the house(and I mean NO help!). The last few years were total hell, but I kept soldering on because my family and marriage were important to me. My home and kids made me happy so I put up with my wife. She went so far as to talk to the kids about divorcing me before we ever talked about it.
Do you really believe she is going to a girlfriends house for New Years ? It sounds fishy to me. I would try and check out her story, and be prepared for the worse.
At this point I would also take steps to protect yourself financially, you can't leagally hide martial assets but you can move things to stop her from emptying the accounts. Put a max on your credit cards as well. Here is another fun one when your married to a cheater, go to the doctor and get tested for STD's. I don't know what state your in but here in Ohio the courts don't care who cheated on who, it's pretty much a 50/50 split in the end. 
There are couples who can work thru a lot of problems and come out with a better and stronger marriage. I thought I had one of those marriages, but I was wrong. Try and save your marriage if you think it's possible, but please, protect yourself in case it fails.

Cooper


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Good morning mclovin. The reason she broke it off for now. Is that you were finally drawing a line with her. You don't seem to understand that all the power in your marriage resides in you. For 9 years this woman has berated you, cheated on you, physically and mentally abused you. She is a completely miserable person. She hates herself so she can't love you. You want her to go to C but she won't. Not because she thinks she doesn't need it. Because of what she will find out about herself. The blinders will be taken off and what will be left? A miserable, selfish, cheating, lying woman who is devoid of love and kindness. Would you want to find this out about yourself. She has put you through 4 months of hell. And she has now called of the EA with this guy. Why? Because she thinks you now actually mean what you say. 

you have supplied her every need and she is angry with you because you can't fix whats wrong with her. She is literally crying out for help. But the only way to fix her is to leave her or for her to leave. If you do not go through with this. Things will get worse. Her violence towards you is escalating. What happens if she hurts your son? She won't want to, but she is in such pain. It will come out in ways she cannot control. My suggestion is that you continue readying her to move out. In fact if the place is ready. I would consider moving some of her stuff out. And then changing the locks. You may need to actually get a restraining order against her. You cannot control or fix what is happening to her. The toughest part will be when she does a complete 180. If you separate from her she is liable (out of fear) to say anything you want to hear. She will make her health (considering suicide) your problem. You cannot pick up that responsibility. I personally think that if you can do this, it could quite possibly the only way to save your marriage. If it is even worth saving.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

You also need to get a VAR for your house. You need to record her outbursts. You need to go down to radio shack and get one TODAY! If this comes down to a custody fight. You will need it to show her irrational fits of anger. I hope you are also documenting what she is doing. For the sake of your son you must be prepared.


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## StrongEnough (Nov 25, 2008)

What is a VAR?


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Voice Activated Recorder.


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## StrongEnough (Nov 25, 2008)

A voice activated recorder-does this pick up all the sounds in your house (children, pets, etc) or is the threshold yelling etc? New to this and I don't know what this is but I am interested!


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

It's like last night when I came home and rolled my eyes when she mentioned going out to get a "festive shirt" for New Year's eve. She got all po'd and demanded to know what I was rolling my eyes about. I told her to not worry about it. Then she goes into the "this is what I mean about you and why things will never get any better". I told her that it's hard to hide my emotions sometimes and if she really must know I think she is being selfish.

Then I started to talk about getting the key to the house she will be moving into to and that I would have it on Friday or Monday. She calmed down and was nicer. Last night I had this dream that she apologized to me and that we were back together. It was so real that I woke up and thought it had happened. Then I realized it was just a dream and depression started to set in. 

I don't know why I still care for her and love her. I just guess I'm hanging on for some reason because I do think she wants help but isn't sure what to do. When I try to talk to her calmly about getting help it doesn't work. I even tried to say that she should get help for the sake of our son. She came back with "what I do in my personal life has no impact on him" referring to her affair. 

She tells me that I interject my perspective and code of ethics all the time and last night again made me feel responsible for what has happened. 

I am just so down again. I'm listening to other people in my office talk about going out with their spouse or having fun and I think my wife will be out, without me, having fun and possibly cheating more. I have no way of really knowing. I still believe TOM is still in Iraq because I actually called the base that he would return to and scoured online to see what troops returned in December and none of them were his regiment. 

I'll at least have peace with my son tonight and she probably won't come rolling in until 2pm-3pm tomorrow. I like to how she mentioned last night that some nights she wanted time with my son. Now she will be with him all day and I work during the day and she had the balls to say that she wanted a couple nights with him as well. Is this completely selfish of her or am I acting wrong in thinking that if she has him during the day then I should at least be able to be with him during the evening since he will also be staying at my home at night. 

I am just so sad guys. I just feel completely depressed about everything. I try to get strength but I'm just a senstive person and this really hurts me at the core. I've never experienced such pain and hurt like this.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I don't know mclovin. I am afraid you are so close to the situation that you are a little frozen with fear. You are now in your enabling mode. You are going to let her go out on new years and further reinforce that you will give away your power and your manhood for the sake of her throwing you the smallest crumb. I guess you will take it till you can't take it anymore. I just think you are compounding your pain. You're like some one who has a festering splinter in their hand. You know it has to come out but you also know that it is going to hurt. But if you don't take it out it will only get worse.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Here is the thing I told her that I thought it was completely selfish for her to go out. She is moving out in the next week or so. I cannot physically stop her from doing anything and she has proven that she will do whatever she wants to do regardless of what I say or demand. She is such a complete jerk that if she did stay home she would completely badger me the entire night and try to provoke me. Is that healthy for me or my son? I'm just damned if I do and damned if I don't. If she stays I go through hell with her home, if she goes I at least am away from her and my son and I can have some fun, but at the same time I'm wondering what she is doing and will be depressed. I'm just screwed either way.

At this point my thought process is to let her self destruct. At least I will have peace for the night and be able to spend time with my son and my parents, who my son really enjoys. It's part of the focus on myself and my son part. 

With that said, I'm upset by her going out, I've voiced my opinion and feel that it's selfish. I've told her that instead of going out she should be getting things together to move out because I will not help her move or do anything at the place she is staying. It's all for her to figure out. I'm trying to move ahead and free myself of her. I just have given up trying to fight her or show her what is right and what is wrong or what she should do or shouldn't do. 

She doesn't listen anyway. She will find out when she moves and I cut her access to her account and she has to open up her own account, take care of things without me, be without me to badger and hurt. I hope she enjoys it.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Now you're talking. I know you don't want to help her move. But she is liable at the end to say she "is not going anywhere. If you want to leave you can". It is imperative that you close off her account. Let me run this idea past you. Can you stop access to your account today (if she finds out what you're planning she could clean you out) and include your credit cards. All you have to do is call up and say that the card was lost and could you cancel it and send new ones. If she doesn't have cash to party she will be less likely to focus on sleeping with some one, because she will be pissed about it.


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## StrongEnough (Nov 25, 2008)

I agree with stopping the access to your credit cards now. When someone knows they are leaving they usually have a plan. It includes going by that bank as the first stop. I would hate to see her clean your account out and leave you with nothing. Now that is not to say to leave her with no money or high and dry, but my STBX sister-in-law, withdrew $20K from my brother and her joint checking and left him the week before he came back from Korea. There was absolutely no recourse legal or otherwise because it was a joint account. She spent the money putting a down payment on her new boyfriend's car!


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Honestly there's really not that much to take. I have one credit card and it's in my wallet. As far as money in our account, not much. She stays at home and I'm no millionare so we have some left after bills, but no savings really. 

I really think that when the point comes for her to move out there will be a battle because she is afraid to be alone. If this goofball really is still in Iraq and will be there for a few more months, being alone is going to drive her insane. Plus having to do things herself without me helping her will be a real challenge for her because I always help her...not this time. 

I know I sound like a real idiot after knowing my story and hearing how I'm handling it. I just don't know what to do. It's obviously clear that my wife doesn't care and has a problem. I have a son and I just want him to have a mom and a dad that love each other. It's probably not going to happen because of my wife, but I've tried and now I'm just pushing myself to move on. She is moving out, hopefully and maybe we'll both get a better perspective on what we want or what the problems are. 

To her though, I'm the bad guy, who doesn't understand her right now and I don't want to be resented for caring and trying to help her anymore. 

I'm just still hurt and trying to make sense of all of this. The first couple months of this were just really emotional. Then the holidays came up and I've been dealing with emotions associated with that. You know, it's just hard. Someone I work with told me that the "nice guys finish last" describes me. I don't want to become bitter and change based on what has happened though and I feel like sometimes I am becoming bitter towards women. When I have gone out I've talked to some women and it seems that there is some interest out there for a guy like me. I'm not the kind of guy that's a hound or driven by sex (I was a virgin when I married my wife). I'm a funny dude, a caring person. I'm not bad looking I guess. I've got a pretty good job that I love and my son loves me. Those are the good things to focus on I guess, but some of the bad things are hard to get out of my head with what has happened.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin said:


> It's like last night when I came home and rolled my eyes when she mentioned going out to get a "festive shirt" for New Year's eve.


Rolling ones eyes is one of the worst thing spouses can do to one another. If this has been a constant thing with you two, that alone (and what lies behind it) could have been enough to have ruined your marriage. What it shows is utter, utter, contempt and disapproval.

Now I know why you rolled your eyes on this particular occasion, but think back...

When there is regular eye rolling in a marriage, it's almost over.


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## StrongEnough (Nov 25, 2008)

MarkTwain said:


> Rolling ones eyes is one of the worst thing spouses can do to one another. If this has been a constant thing with you two, that alone (and what lies behind it) could have been enough to have ruined your marriage. What it shows is utter, utter, contempt and disapproval.
> 
> Now I know why you rolled your eyes on this particular occasion, but think back...
> 
> When there is regular eye rolling in a marriage, it's almost over.


:iagree: Rolling of the eyes is extremely disrespectful! I understand why you did it in this situation as well, but if it has been going on a lot, it can be a cause for concern.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm starting to understand more about my actions and how they impact the situation. Thank you both for the advice. I'm not an "eye roller" and haven't been in our relationship, it's just in this situation it's been hard not to. That's not excuse though and it is disrespectful. 

My wife came home from her New Year's Eve outing and the next day basically broke down. I don't know what to do. She said that she doesn't want to have feelings for TOM anymore. She knows it can never work out, but the only reason she wants to cut it off is because of the reality that it will not work out. Not because this guy is a loser or because she loves me. She did say again that she doesn't want to break up our family, but she still doesn't have feelings for me. 

Again I'm just confused. In talking with her for a long time yesterday I realize that she was planning seriously with this guy over the past couple months they've been talking. She told me that he was planning to leave his kids, move closer to us, now he has decided not to. When my wife tells him it's over because it could never work , he still says there is a way. 

What do I do. We were going to seperate but she is upset about that. She is somewhat asking me for help, even though she didn't come right out and say it. Part of me wants to help her and not seperate and try to do something, but the other part is that she was planning behind my back all this time and now it's blown up and she doesn't know what to do. 

I would really appreciate any help or advice.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin-

Only by thinking long term will you be able to handle this.

Your wife appears to have unleashed a huge selfish streak, but we all have one of those, it's just that we suppress it most of the time. Once her senses come fully back to her, the biggest feeling she will have is embarrassment.

If you just listen to her and humour her for a while, you will gradually notice a lessening of the ME ME ME, in her conversation. Listen, but do not argue. As long as she is in an irrational mode, you will get nowhere. Eventually, she will thank you for hanging on for her.

If she does not eventually see your value, then you can make your own choice, once she has come back to normal. But at the moment she is not in her right mind, so you should make allowances. 

Also give her plenty of space - more than she asks for. I would go as far as to offer her a separate bed to sleep in - because you want her to have space. Believe me this is strong medicine.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi mclovin,

*So her plans are falling through. Big surprise. Go through with moving her out. Even if you use the " it would be better for you. You need time to think and who knows maybe it will work out for you and him". I think this would slap her upside the head good...Just think you have always been there loving her, supporting her, and being her shoulder to cry on. Just see what happens to her when it looks like you are letting her go. You have never spoken like this to her before. As more of a friend and not a pleading spouse. Just try it.*

The question is not whether she loves your son. Its does she love you. And you will never find out if things stay the same. She needs to feel the full weight of separation means. If you take her back without counseling, boundaries, a commitment to work on your marriage, you are kidding yourself. If she thinks life sucks with you. She needs to see how much more it sucks without you. I know this is tough. But if you cave. You will have gone through four months of hell, only to repeat it in the future. Can't you see this?


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

I know, but I read Twain's post and it seems like he is saying stick with her and work with her, don't seperate. Then I read your post and you are saying the opposite.

I understand what you are saying about letting her feel what life without me would be like. But what if she agreed to counseling, boundaries, commitment, etc. Should we still seperate? Wouldn't it be better for us to try and work on things while still living together. 

My wife actually said last night "I think something is really wrong with me". She needs help, and I just don't know if seperating is gonig to actually help her. 

I'm just confused.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin said:


> My wife actually said last night "I think something is really wrong with me". She needs help, and I just don't know if seperating is gonig to actually help her.


She just needs time. Not counselling at this point, unless she requests it. But going to an MC would be the wrong thing. You can't fix a marriage while one person is in crisis. First the crisis must end. 

She is on the verge of finding herself, so the process is quite delicate. By being loving but firm you can help her through and let her come to her own conclusions - the only conclusions that will help.

To repeat, she is now at the critical stage. She will be like a new person in a few weeks. She is not stupid, she will work it all out for herself. Just support her, but give her even more space than she asks for.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Initfortheduration-

He can be firm and loving at the same time, surely?


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

In your posts. You have said that she has always been selfish, treated you mean, talked down to you. Mark's position has its points if you want things to remain the same. But I think you are looking for a better marriage not the same marriage. I am not saying leave her, or divorce her. I am saying force a crisis in her life. The facts are she is going back and forth between you and him (only she treats you like ****. And treats him like a king). Do you want this to continue? She has to make a clear choice and she won't as long as she feels you will play along. I don't care if you move her out for a day. but she has to think that you have had enough. She is the one who has to stop contacting him. She must choose to go N/C with him. She needs to think "MY GOD, WHAT WAS I THINKING, I AM GOING TO LOSE MY FAMILY" If you act more like a concerned friend and distance yourself, if only for a while. I think you will have a better chance at getting her and your marriage the help you need. But in the end it is your marriage. JMHO


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Initfortheduration said:


> I am saying force a crisis in her life.


He does not need to, *she* already has. And it's only weeks away from leading to the next level.

Be careful what you wish for *Initfortheduration*, and on whom you wish it.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Mark, 

Of course he can be firm and loving. But she must believe that he is not trying control her in this situation (though in truth, he has all the power). For four months he has been completely reactive in this relationship. She acts he responds. He needs to be proactive. He needs to make her understand that if she wants to be with him and her son. That she must choose to do it. And I am not saying drive her from the house with a stick. I am saying bring her to a point where he stops being the reason she is miserable, because he isn't the reason. She thinks he is, and that is why moving her out to be with herself and her thoughts takes him out of the picture as the problem? Then instead of being the husband who is keeping her from doing what she wants. He becomes her friend who she runs to for help. Do you understand what I am saying. It is the old "if you love something set it free" In my mind there is no question that she will respond to this and could really have a breakthrough.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Well mclovin, you have two points of view here. Tough love or wait and see. You have tried wait and see for 4 months. But in the end its your marriage.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Initfortheduration-

Yes, I understand you.

You are correct when you say he has been reactive. But that is partly because he was at a loss to know what to do.

What I am advocating is subtlety...

Offering her a bed of her own would be much more subtle than packing her bags. Giving her more space than she asks for is very powerful. If someone asks for 5 minute alone and you give them 6, it makes the difference between them getting what they wanted and getting more than they bargained for.

This situation is already in crisis, heaping in more unknowns at this time could be dangerous. If you love someone, you try to do what's best for them.

When she comes back down to earth, she will remember what she did, and how he reacted. So there will be consequences all round, and we can't be sure how it will go. So I say keep the chaotic elements to a minimum. At least he gets to keep an eye on her if she is in the house.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

mclovin said:


> My wife came home from her New Year's Eve outing and the next day basically broke down. I don't know what to do. She said that she doesn't want to have feelings for TOM anymore. She knows it can never work out, *but the only reason she wants to cut it off is because of the reality that it will not work out. Not because this guy is a loser or because she loves me. * She did say again that she doesn't want to break up our family, but she still doesn't have feelings for me.
> 
> Again I'm just confused. In talking with her for a long time yesterday I realize that she was planning seriously with this guy over the past couple months they've been talking. She told me that he was planning to leave his kids, move closer to us, now he has decided not to. When my wife tells him it's over because it could never work , he still says there is a way.
> I would really appreciate any help or advice.


You said it. Right here. The only thing is, is I think she does love you. She is in a romantic fog with this guy. It is like you said. She needs to stay because she WANTS to be with you. Not because she HAS to be with you.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

We do sleep in seperate rooms so she has her own bed to sleep in so to speak. The problem I have is determining if she really is in "crisis" or if this is just another game. 

I have been reactive and at times I know I've made the situation probably worse by how I acted or things I've said. I have been hurtful to her by what I've said to her because she was hurting me a lot. I make no excuses for the things I've said. However I have tried and tried and this is one of the first times that my wife actually opened up to me about how she is feeling and what she is gong through.

Again, I'm skeptical because I just don't know if she is being real or not. The thing that boggles my mind is that on Sunday she is upset because she "broke it off" with him and told him it could never work mainly because of me and how I would react to them being together. She tries to convince me that he is a "good guy" and that her being happy is better for everyone including our son. Now last night (5 days later) she is completely breaking down and not wanting to have feelings for TOM. She tells me she just feels torn and is sick of feeling like this. She tells me that she wishes TOM would have been more up front about his situation from the start and that she keeps going back and forth about what he is going to do because she feels that he lost her once and doesn't want to let go again (they dated in college). 

In listening to her last night I responding very little. I did tell her that I thought that she was building him up into something more than what he is and not seeing the situation as it really is. He is manipulating her for his own selfish reason. My wife was depressed and uspet prior to meeting him, that's what prompted her reaching out to him. He took advantage of that as an opportunity for him, and in doing so is driving her crazy. I mean my wife is a beautiful woman and she looks horrible. She doesn't sleep...started smoking...If he cared so much why would he put her through this..that's what I asked. I also told her that it's only a matter of time before he asks her to leave our son.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Is this a crisis or just another game? If she moves out what are your fears? He is not in country so he can't sleep with her. She thinks she loves him. So I don't think she will go out and sleep with someone else. You guys don't have money. She will have less to party with if you close your accounts and move her out. You have to look at the downside. Does she seem suicidal? If not move forward. 

Have you ever tried, just letting go? Like you're through fighting for her. If not at least give it a try. Has anything else you've done worked? I know you love her and want whats best for her. At this point she doesn't know what she wants. All you would be doing is backing off and letting her feel the weight of her actions. 

Mark twain. What is the downside to this?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Initfortheduration said:


> Mark twain. What is the downside to this?


Have you tired these experiments on your own wife?


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Alright. Here is the update. So I call her to talk to her. I am calm and not judgemental. I told her that I appreciated her talking to me last night.

I told her that it is hard for me to see her leave and move out. I told her that in my heart that I don't want her to go, but that she hasn't really made any commitment to me to try and see things through. I told her that I may have acted irrationally at times and made things worse at times and that I apologize for that. I was just hurt and upset at what she was doing.

She responds by asking me what I want her to do. She told me that she really does want to be with this other guy but the reality is that it can't happen and that she just wants to lose the feelings for him because it is making her sick and she can't take it anymore. So in short she still denies to see that this guy is manipulating her and is a loser. I'm sure if this situation was happening with a guy down the street she'd be gone based on these comments. right?

She also says that all of her reasons for being upset with leaving surround leaving our son and the house that she feels comfortable in. Again, I'm not in the picture. She says that the environment has not been good and the tension is part of the problem. She doesn't look forward to seeing me or me coming up. I told her that I feel the same way because of what has gone on, but at the same time neither of us has done anything to make the other want to come home. 

Again, it goes back to a committment to making it work. It's just not there on her end. She actually compared me to TOM in confusing her because one minute I want her to move out and the next I'm questioning if there are other options. I told her that the difference is what I'm offering is concrete not empty promises. She ended the conversation by basically saying that she thinks it is best to move out for her. She wants to get clear of the situation and away from me to think things out and see if she can get rid of her feelings for TOM. 

Twain..I tried your approach, but basically she pushed me away. I wasn't condesending a jerk or anything. I was understanding, calm and tried to reach out to her again. She pushed me away. I guess by her choosing INIT's approach is going to happen. I just wanted to believe that she was reaching out to me but in reality it probably was just bull. I guess I have nothing left to do but to let go. 

I believe I can honestly say that I've tiried every approach to this possible. Anger, Demands, Step Back, Understanding, Listening, Reasoning...everything. Maybe she does just really love this guy and I'm keeping her away from him. I don't want to believe it's true, but maybe it is. Maybe he isn't a loser, even though all the facts say he is, maybe he isn't. Maybe I just haven't faced the reality that she just doesn't love me anymore and there isn't anything I can do about it.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I can't say that I have. I have been married 29 years and we haven't had infidelity issues.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I think she loves the idea of this guy. Though i didn't know that they went to college together. I think this is for the best. at this point. You need space.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin said:


> Twain..I tried your approach, but basically she pushed me away. I wasn't condesending a jerk or anything. I was understanding, calm and tried to reach out to her again. She pushed me away. I guess by her choosing INIT's approach is going to happen. I just wanted to believe that she was reaching out to me but in reality it probably was just bull. I guess I have nothing left to do but to let go.


Then you did not quite understand me. I am saying, do nothing. Let her do it. Just stand back. You keep getting in the way of her and her.

Let her move in or move out. If she asks you what you think, just say - I'm easy either way - it's your choice. You need to give her time for the "penny to drop".

What might help you right now, is if you had some activity to throw yourself into, because the best way to fast-track this is by giving the appearance that you are letting her get on with it. If you are seen to be hovering around waiting for her decision, you will just delay the process.

You're getting much better at dealing with her, but you need to get this last little bit of indifference in place.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

They met in college and were on again off again. She basically failed out of college. She felt she was too immature and wanted to party rather than be with him at this point. She left college and was supposed to go to a wedding with him and stood him up. Then he tried to call her later in the year and she blew him off.

She tells me that he said that she broke his heart and that he has always loved her. That is why he just won't let it go because he doesn't want to lose her again. 

Honestly I think they are both screwed up in some way. This guy is fresh off a divorce and my wife was apparently more depressed than I realized. It's like perfect alignment for stupid things to happen.

I think this dude is very manipulative and she just hasn't seen the "real him" yet. I do believe that she has broken it off with him because she is really depressed and crying all the time.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin said:


> I do believe that she has broken it off with him because she is really depressed and crying all the time.


Just give her space... she is not telling you everything


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

So what do I say when I go home? Do I say anything or do I just let her say something? If she asks me what to do or says things about confusing her, how do I respond? 

Do I say "whatever you decide I'm ok with" or do I tell her that "if you want to stay here I will give you space but you have to committ to _____ (fill in the blank)?"

INIT is right in one way in that she has never really been that great to me. I mean it hasn't all been crap but she has said things to me over the years that have been hurtful and very rarely apologizes for what she says or how she acts.

What else do you think she is not telling me? I mean I know what you are saying because every time I talk calmly with her more info comes out. But at the same time there is a consistent theme from her which is "I don't love you anymore".


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Just don't talk to her. Give her space. Don't try to get any commitments. She can't be trusted with commitments. What you need to (and I know this hard) is put on a front that you are happy and moving forward. No buying into the crying on your shoulder. You now become her biggest cheer leader. In regards to getting her life together. Not the affair. I want you to remember this. If she asks if you miss her, you say of course. And nothing more. This is your new catch phrase:

THE HAPPIER I GET, THE MORE SHE'LL REGRET.

She needs to see your life stabalizing. While hers is coming apart. She needs to remember what attrachted her to you in the first place. 

I pesonally think she has a severe case of post partum depression. But if you can't help her right now. You need to be the best person for you and your son. Pull the financial support.
If she complains. Tell her "our" priority has to be our boy. Make her think that if she take from you, she is taking from your son.
That way you are not the enemy.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

You are right. Every so often my heart gets in the way and I snap back to thinking that if I show her I care enough or that I love her enough that she will just wake up.l The fact is that I've done that certainly over the months that this has been going on and over our entire relationship. 

I like the catch phrase. I just don't believe she will regret leaving. I basically think the moment she leaves it really is over. I mean to hear her talk about this other guy and idolize him I just can't see how she would ever want me back, even if she does let him go. Because I'll be the reason and the center of why she cannot be with him. The fact of the matter is that if I weren't in the picture she'd be long gone to be with him and my son would have to deal with two lunatics.

She said to me the other day that she struggles to make it through the day with my son. I'm thinking about suggesting to her that she makes a complete break from us altogether. I just don't think she will go for that. My son could go to my parents during the day so she could have time to be alone to think. Again though I just don't think she will want to be away from our son because he's like her only source of happiness right now. Yet at the same time she tells me she struggles to get the energy during the day to be with him. That's the depression part that I think you are talking about. But she blames her depression on basically me because she wants to be with TOM and can't because of me. 

Again , as I write this I feel like a complete idiot. Why do I even try with her. It sucks being human. Robots have it easy. LOL.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Mclovin, I sent you a message.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin said:


> Do I say "whatever you decide I'm ok with" or do I tell her that "if you want to stay here I will give you space but you have to committ to _____ (fill in the blank)?"


No demands. Give her space and see what she does with it. As INIT says, work on making yourself well. I would definitely not ague with her, there is no point at the moment.

How much of a life do you have outside of the house? Can you increase it?


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

This weekend I had a lot of space. She had the flu so I spent most of the weekend at my parents with my son. We had such a great time away from her. My son really loves my parents and the environment. I was able to get a reprieve from this mess.

How did she handle it? Not well at all. Even though she was sick she still was able to badger me about not seeing our son and me providing a better environment for him than she can. She also continued harping on me because our son didn't take a nap either day (because he was excited to be at my parents) and went to bed at 7:30pm rather than 9:00pm which is his "schedule" as she says.

On Monday morning I woke up to go to work and my son woke up as well. He was screaming for me not to go and grasping onto my leg and hip. He kept saying "daddy don't go to work". My wife came in and basically was po'd about this. She again started the "he loves you more" comments and "I can provide a better environment comments". She then said that she gave up her career to be with him at home and he doesn't love her as much as he loves me. She ran into the other room and just started crying hysterically. Then when she came back in and tried to get him he told her to "just leave mommy" and wouldn't go to her. She then said that she "hated" me. Then she said that she was just going to "move to Cleveland" to be with her loverboy because our son wouldn't miss her anyway. 

So this is all at 6am on Monday morning. I come home Monday night and she has dinner ready and is somewhat normal. I tried to talk to her and ask her what she really wanted. When I asked her if she wanted to move to Cleveland or leave us she could do that. Now she kicks into denial mode saying that she says these things out of frustration and hurt and would never leave our son. Just like I say things out of frustration, but when she says things I believe she is serious. I told her that she keeps saying she is going to leave us over and over again, so I have no choice but to believe that is what she wants to do.

Then she asks about seperating and if we should just divorce. I told her that I think she should move out to seperate first because I can't take her back and forth mindset. Does she really want to leave us and is just being spiteful about staying because she knows how much my son means to me? Is she just saying those things out of frustration? I have never said anything about leaving our son and although I've said hurtful things I didn't mean I would never say out of frustration that I would leave him. THe other part is that when I have said things during this ordeal I have always..and I mean always apologized to her for them.

It's just such a mess I'm in. Last night we got into the other guy discussion to. She says she stopped talking to him but still has him on facebook. I asked her why...no answer. Then she said "i'll just remove him..done". I just think she is up to something. Either she has something planned about leaving to be with him or something. Any thoughts?


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## CPT CONFUSED (Oct 16, 2008)

like you have told me many times before my friend your being jacked. she wants to see how far she can go with it. seems like shes trying to base how much you love her by how much **** she can put you though. thats my take anyway my wife has been pulling the same **** with me. its like a toy for them you and i are a yo-yo on a string she tosses that yo-yo out there and then waits to see how far it goes before it comes back. well if you cut the string on the yo-yo how far does that yo-yo go? kinda makes that person with the yo-yo in hand wonder where the **** the other end went doesnt it? let her dig her own hole thats how you will get her back if you truly want to work on your marriage. mclovin ever throw a boomerang what happens to it when you throw it? it always comes back right? throw your boomerang my friend and watch what happens! im just learning this concept now threw my wife an ultimatum the other night she replied to me this morning do you really want a divorce?? i said isnt that what you want? and she didnt answer me... throw your boomerang my friend..... really think about it at this point how much worse can it get??



CPT


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Why she is asking about separation or divorce, is she is trying to push your buttons. I think she was trying to get you into the "i must save my marriage mode". The next time she brings it up. Tell her impatiently (but not angrily) 

"just leave, we can workout the details later." Don't say if you want to leave. say "Just leave"

She was already supposed to be gone. Tell her: 

"I know you will never leave our son. And I want you to spend as much time as you can with him. But you obviously don't love me. So you should move out. You can see him anytime you want to. There is no reason for you to stay."

You may think she is scheming. But I think she does not want to leave you. She said she is going N/C with this guy. THIS IS A MAJOR SUCCESS. Even if you can't be sure. She is no longer rubbing it in your face. And is doing things like, dumping his face book.

As I have said. I am not so sure that she doesn't love you. As I said. She needs to brought to a crisis. I BELIEVE THE CRISIS IS YOU PULLING AWAY FROM HER.

This other guy is romance. YOU ARE LOVE. I think she knows this deep down.

Remember. You are now the self confident happy guy. You want the best for her. Before, she thought you just wanted her to stay for yourself. Now you want what will make her happy.

You may be to close to the situation. To see the changes in her. 

Let me leave you with this thought. And I believe it is of major import. She didn't say "I want a separation or a divorce". SHE WAS ASKING YOU WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO. If she wanted either of these things she would be gone already. Think about it. Keep pulling away. But always wanting the best for her.

If she loves you. Remember. THE HAPPIER YOU GET THE MORE SHE WILL REGRET.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Or another thing you could say to her (regarding her comment about separation or divorce), is "we could do the separation now when you move out. Don't worry about divorce. I will file the day you go to meet him". A line in the sand! 

Once she has decided to stay (I believe she already has) and the shoe is on the other foot. You will be able to take it to the next level. By telling her. " No, the only way you CAN stay is going to individual counseling. and then marital counseling after that ". "I will no longer live this way or put my son through this any longer. We will either work on this marriage and our love or we will end it." No screaming, no fighting. And then tell her the next time she goes out partying with her friends you will change the locks on the doors. You will not stop her or even ask her not to go. Just be sure she knows that the next time it happens. She will be living in the other house.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I just re-read this part of your post.



mclovin said:


> Then when she came back in and tried to get him he told her to "just leave mommy" and wouldn't go to her. She then said that she "hated" me. Then she said that she was just going to "move to Cleveland" to be with her loverboy because our son wouldn't miss her anyway.



*Did she say this in front of your son?*

If she did this. And she already has detachment issues with him (And she definitely does).

What else do you think your son has seen.. I so wish I could talk to your wife. 

Your son has seen the the greatest focus of his love belittled, berated and betrayed by his mom. He watches everything. If she does not completely stop this now. He will end up hating her. FOREVER. I finally see what is happening here. Her love is so selfish that she thinks if your son loves you more. That some how there is less love for her. When any mother should look at that attachment as the greatest asset for the future success of her son. This needs to be explained to her. If not by you . Then by someone. She is doing irreparable harm to her son, and herself and their relationship. All your son sees is you trying to reach out to his mother and her verbally abusing and sometimes physically abusing you. She needs to understand this. and completely reverse how she treats you.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin said:


> So this is all at 6am on Monday morning. I come home Monday night and she has dinner ready and is somewhat normal. I tried to talk to her and ask her what she really wanted. When I asked her if she wanted to move to Cleveland or leave us she could do that. Now she kicks into denial mode saying that she says these things out of frustration and hurt and would never leave our son. Just like I say things out of frustration, but when she says things I believe she is serious. I told her that she keeps saying she is going to leave us over and over again, so I have no choice but to believe that is what she wants to do.


Women don't work like that... when they say something it might be real to them at that moment, but it is seldom a statement for all time. 



mclovin said:


> THe other part is that when I have said things during this ordeal I have always..and I mean always apologized to her for them.


This is where you need to change your language. don't say things you don't mean for all time. Women expect to be able to change their minds. However, they expect men to be consistent!

In fact in this situation, what will probably really make her see you as valuable is if you can be consistently consistent every single day. Adopt a sensible position and stick to it. Be firm, be consistent. She is so chaotic right now, your calmness might reassure her.

What's probably going on is that she is sensing shifting sands and mixed messages from TOM - and that's without even throwing in her own feelings. If when she comes home, she finds you a rock of consistency, she will see you as an emotional resource. It will take time for her to see this, but you need to perfect it. In any case, it will do you good to be firm about what you want.

Spend some time working out what you want. Write bullet points. Look it over. See if you can live it. Re-write it, look it over again. When you have it right, *live it*.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes, she did say this in front of our son. I've read your other posts and it's interesting. She did ask me if I want a divorce because she thought the plan was to seperate, decompress for a month or so and then go to counseling together. 

I guess that when I think about what she said it does seem that she has "decided to stay" in what she is saying. The only problem is that I don't trust a thing she says because she has betrayed my trust and lied to me so many times about talking to him and seeing him. Plus he is still on her facebook as a friend, so what does that mean.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Good points Twain and it makes sense. I just feel like I am inconsistent and what you are saying I can understand why she is just not sure what's going on. It's just hard to be consistent when she is all over the place. Again, I feel like I'm being punished for her being the bad person and doing all these horrible things.

It's like I have to do all the work and I don't really see she's doing anything.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Has she packed anything to move to the other house? Is she making any arrangements regarding her move at all? To me she is like a child at the controls of a machine. She is pushing every button, pulling every lever, to try and do what she wants. But she doesn't know what she wants. 

Have you ever asked her how she thinks your son perceives the situation? He will gravitate to the one who is stable. It is natural for him to want to protect the one who is being hurt. I think your wife sees the two of you as a separate entity. She feels excluded. She wants in but she doesn't know how to get in. She can't understand how a baby she was pregnant with for nine months and gave birth to, someone she loves so very much can love someone more then her. She thinks that he only has so much love in him and you're getting it all. She doesn't understand that the more she verbally attacks you the more your son will gravitate towards you, to protect you. Your wife cannot understand the more she loves you, the more your son will love her. And one more thing. Your son is forming the idea of how a family is supposed to act towards each other. This will be his reference point for his future relationships.


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## sunflower (Dec 15, 2008)

Initfortheduration said:


> Your son is forming the idea of how a family is supposed to act towards each other. This will be his reference point for his future relationships.


:iagree:

We are going to a marriage Counslor and he says that children pick up very fast on things like this and need not be pushed away from the emotion of it all. cause they will have attatchment issues later and that makes sense. your son needs stability. If you guys are going to fight dont involve him or do it around him and dont go behind shut doors and lock him away from you and everything. Its so hard to deal with that and your children SO SO SO hard. but be kind for his sake and if she is going to continue to act that way you and your son leave he doesnt need to be around that. He is your number 1 priority.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

It is so sad. The more she attacks Mclovin the further she drives her son away.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

mclovin said:


> Yes, she did say this in front of our son. I've read your other posts and it's interesting. She did ask me if I want a divorce because she thought the plan was to seperate, decompress for a month or so and then go to counseling together.
> 
> I guess that when I think about what she said it does seem that she has "decided to stay" in what she is saying. The only problem is that I don't trust a thing she says because she has betrayed my trust and lied to me so many times about talking to him and seeing him. Plus he is still on her facebook as a friend, so what does that mean.


I guess that means its time for her to leave.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Last night was a stressful situation again. She hasn't done anything really to organize herself to move out. I don't have the key to the place yet, but will get it today or tomorrow. 

The one thing she did do is contact Verizon to make sure she could transfer her cell phone out of my name and into hers. I came home last night and questioned her as to why this was such a priority. She said it's because when we are seperated that means we are seperated and because I changed my email address password why should I have access to her records. I told her, fine I'll give you my pword so you don't have the change verizon to your name. I also said that she hasn't given me access to her facebook account so why not give that as well. 

She went into the whole barrage about me spying on her and having no privacy, knowing who she is contacting, etc. I told her there is only one person I'm concerned about her contacting and that TOM. Then she threatened divorce again. Luckily she went to work so it ended.

Since the incident with my son on Monday morning he has been strangely more clingy to my wife. I feel bad because I had to go to work and leave him so I wonder if he now resents me for it. He has been asking for her and saying he "loves mommy" a lot, which he hasn't done for months. I almost wonder if she is brainwashing him during the day or something.

I just feel like a horrible parent. I have tried not to argue in front of him and for the most part haven't. I just am so afraid that all of this has impacted him in some way. It just sucks. I should have just ended it and divorced her months ago and moved on. It's clear she doesn't want any part of our relationship and is just hanging on for the security.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

You are probably right. I don't like seeing you give up on her. But she is soooooooo broken. Have her move. Have you separated you accounts yet? I know you don't have a lot of money. But the point is, that security cushion needs to be removed from her. She has no Idea. No concept of how tough it is out there for a single mother. Financially she will be 27% worse off after a year. You will be 10% better off. You need to start being unavailable emotionally to her. Discuss only finance and your son. As I have said before you may consider telling her once and only once. That the day she meets Tom is the day you file for divorce. You need to start preparing for fighting for custody. She said she would never leave her son. She didn't say she wouldn't take him. She is selfish so don't put it past her. I imagine if you get your key to the other house. You want her to start packing immediately. I suggest that you and your son go to your parents. And let her move herself over the weekend. You do not want to give her the power of seeing you breakdown. Remember after she leaves. To change the locks on the house. This is important to assert yourself. From now on, she will be a guest when she comes over. I believe if you are to have any chance with her you have to remove all emotional, financial, and physical support from her. Why? Because it may effect what she does if she sees you pulling away. Or, you will need to do it anyways for yourself, if there is to be no reconciliation.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

This is the best list of dealing with a spouse in the fog I have seen


1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

I will put this on Cpts thread too.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Good list INIT. Another trying evening with my wife. I saw on our phone records that over the weekend she called TOM and had a 3 hour conversation with him. She had the flu during the weekend and my son and I went to my parents to give her quiet and rest. 

I asked her about the call because she had told me before that she had "broke it off" with him. She said that she did and that the only reason she called him is because I left her alone all day on Saturday and Sunday and took or son to my parents. She had the flu and I gaurentee if I would have stayed my son would've wanted to see her or she would've been po'd about the noise.

When I asked her about how her calling him and talking to him for 3 hours is "breaking it off" she said that she has. She said that nothing can come of this relationship with him but he is all she has. She said she doesn't have the support structure that I do because her Mom doesn't care about what is going on and she can't talk to me. 

Now in a few of my earlier posts on this string I mentioned how we had some good conversations last week. But now every day this week has been a struggle, culminating with me finding out about her call to him. She told me that my attitude and stance throughout this situation makes her hate me and she just can't stomach me anymore. She said that I haven't changed one bit and that all I've done is focus on her and not what I could change or what I did wrong.

I calmly told her that during my counseling sessions I have focused on what I did wrong to cause our relationship to go sour. I explained all the things that I thought were problems on my end. I told her that I take responsibility for those things and that I have tried to reach out to her to fix our situation but she has instead continued her other relationship. I asked her how she would act in my situation or how she would feel. She said she could understand, yet she still is hateful towards me.

We are seperating and I'm waiting on the key to the place she will be staying. She told me that she wants to write something up and have me sign it saying she is not abandoning our son that is due to a seperation. When I told her that I wouldn't sign anything until I had a lawyer look at it she became angry with me. 

It's like a can't win. I give her space over the weekend and don't bother her and boom...she calls TOM. I try to talk to her and she gets angry. Yet she tells me that we should seperate and that after a month of decompressing from the situation we can decide if we want to go to counseling. 

I just wonder her and loverboy were discussing for 3 hours. I asked her and she said it was none of my business. It's lke she gives hints at reconciliation like going to counseling, she also said about if we did go to counseling that she would give me access to her facebook an other stuff like email again. It's just confusing.

Does any of this make sense to anyone. Again..she makes me feel like I'm the problem and that I'm not trying or changing. I'm not perfect and have said and done things wrong during this, but I have tried, haven't i?


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi mclovin, I hope that key comes soon. There is nothing more that can be done till she goes. You need to print out the list I posted. And you have to religiously observe it. You seem like you have a lot of self control. If anyone can apply the principles you can. These will make you stronger and more able to deal with the outcome what ever it may be. As I said she has to be on her own so that you are no longer the issue. She can talk all she wants to this Tom, but I am hoping that once she sees you pulling away. and not asking her any questions, not telling her you love her and working on your own happiness, I am sure you will see a difference. YOU HAVE TO BECOME AN EMOTIONAL VACUUM TO HER. Taking every thing in but not showing her anything but a confident happy Mclovin. Once you are no longer the reason for her unhappiness (which I don't believe you are anyways). She will have to own what is hers. And that's when the crisis comes. I want you to methodically go down the list and see what you have not been doing. Please, Please, Please, apply the principles known here as the 180.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks INIT. I really appreciate your posts and help. I called my lawyer today and honestly after talking with folks, including her mother they all believe she has some severe mental issues. I'm going to see what my lawyer says and go from there. It may involve having her hospitilized for evaluation, but maybe in the end that may help her get through this, even if it means we don't stay together.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I agree. That is the purpose of the crisis. She need to come to the end of herself. And ask for help.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

In the end. I think there is one emotion you can have for her that may turn her looking inward. But this can only be shown as she is moving out and if you are strong enough to maintain a 180, Pity. As she leaves, tell her that this has always been about her and never about the marriage. To her, it has always been about what she wasn't getting in your marriage, when in truth the real issue was what she wasn't giving. Use this final conversation as a demarcation in your relationship. Tell her from now on things will be different between her and you. She has pulled your strings through this whole affair. Understandably you have done everything you "thought" was right (but wasn't) to save your marriage. The only chance left for that is for you to apply the list. She has always had you there 24/7. She has never had to do without your love. It is time to show her what that means. She will bait you with suicide threats, with false claims and statements that will be meant to give you hope. But will only feed her ego, which will allow her to remain where she is. At those times you will have to be strongest of all. Your emotions have lied to you. You must use your mind to maintain complete control over them. It would have been better if you had started the 180 months ago. But hindsight is 20/20. She needs to see what she was getting from you is not what she will be getting from him. But it needs to be taken away from her before she can realize it.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Hi mclovin, How are you? How did your weekend go?


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Ok I guess. Just having a hard time. My wife worked on Friday night and Sunday so I was able to spend time with my son and took him to my parents. He really enjoys them and the atmosphere is much better than at my house. Just bad karma there.

My wife and I took my son to this education toy place and got him some stuff there. As we were going we got into a small argument about stupid stuff. My wife utters "things are just never going to change." She keeps saying that which is annoying.

When my wife came home from work last night she commented about how she dreads coming home. She said that either when she comes home from work or when I come home she gets sick in the stomach. 

I was calm about her commnets and started a conversation about divorce. She was taken back by this and said to me "I thought we were going to seperate, decompress and then determine if we should go to counseling?" I said to her that she keeps saying "nothing is going to change" and that at this point why wait and prolong this. I told her calmly that it's been 5 months since all of this started and she (1) continues to talk to TOM (2) continues to make comments about nothing changing (3) continues to make comments that she can't get feelings for me or see me in a romantice way (4) only sees me as my son's father, not her partner.

I told her that based on all of those facts it would seem that she is just stringing this along. That on top of the fact that she has gone out and not come home and done pretty much anything she wanted to is just not being very considerate of me or my feelings. I told her that at this point that I am losing any type of feelings for her and that my only focus has been my son. That each day she continues to do what she does I lose feeilngs for her more.

She again asks me what I want her to do. I've already answered this questions 100 times before and at this point I just want her to dissapear honestly. A few months ago I asked 2 simple things from her (1) stop talking to TOM (2) focus on our relationship/counseling. She didn't follw through on either and still isn't. So I questioned her as to what seperation will do to better our situation. 

We went round and round on this subject. We are still going to seperate but honestly I just want it to end. I'm being chicken because I don't want to miss out on my son and divorcing means sharing him with her. If she said tomorrow "I'm gone..you can have him" I'd run to the attorney to get the papers. I'm just at the point of trying to come to grips with sharing custody of my son with her and how I will deal with that. 

I must face that fear and more hurt being away from my son after we divorce. That's my hurdle at this point. How do I do it?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Your son needs his mother just as much as he needs you, so you _have _to share him. I know it's messy, but that's how it generally goes. If you took up with another woman, and your wife got fed up of having him, you might get full custody, but that is unusual.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

I was calm about her commnets and started a conversation about divorce. She was taken back by this and said to me "I thought we were going to seperate, decompress and then determine if we should go to counseling?"

She again asks me what I want her to do. I've already answered this questions 100 times before and at this point I just want her to dissapear honestly. A few months ago I asked 2 simple things from her (1) stop talking to TOM (2) focus on our relationship/counseling. She didn't follw through on either and still isn't. So I questioned her as to what seperation will do to better our situation.


You are to close to the situation. You can't see what is happening. "She is taken aback"? "She again asks what you want her to do?". Let me tell you what I would do. Go up to her. Grab her phone. Toss it on the ground AND STOMP THE SH1T OUT OF IT. Then tell her to go use a pay phone. She may be waiting for you to man up. Its your phone. You bought them. Then reach into your pocket take out a 20 dollar bill and throw it on the ground. Tell her to get a pay as you go phone. You don't have to get violent. You just explain that crushing the cell phone is what you wanted her to do. Let her find her own way to contact him. Did you close your joint bank account yet? Cancel any credit card she has? You will need to do this so she can't get one then max it and get you to pay the bill. No key yet? Tell her to leave and go live with her friend until you get the key. Again, you need to bring her to a crisis. I can tell you right now. By everything she is doing, she does not want to end the marriage. She wants you to take control. Crush the stupid phone! What the hell do you have to lose? Then cancel the land line (you don't need it), and use your cell phone. I know I am getting up in your grill a little. But its only because I think you both want to reconcile. But you won't stop sitting on you thumbs.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Initfortheduration said:


> Go up to her. Grab her phone. Toss it on the ground AND STOMP THE SH1T OUT OF IT.


This is not manly, it's frustration speaking. The only way to win in these situations is to be super cool.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Twain, I completely understand my son needs his mom as much as me. I was just pretty much venting about the situation in that blurb. I don't want to keep my son from my wife, that isn't fair to him or her. The fact that I will not be able to see my son when I want to or possibly miss out on things with him is what I struggle with. This is the only reason at least at this point why I'm not at an attorney. I find that I'm losing any feelings for my wife because of what she has done and continues to do.

She is very clear that she doesn't have feelings for me anymore. She makes references to our past that suggest, in her mind, that we probably weren't a good match for each other. But now we are at this point, with child, so what to do? She has lost any love for me, seeks it from someone else, and hasn't done anything about it either way (stay and work on it or go divorce route). Instead she looks to me to figure it out by asking me "what do you want me to do." 

It's getting irritating and again I have no idea what her true intentions are. She just has morphed into something that I have little respect for. It actually sickens me at times to think that she is my son's mother because I just see her as this selfish, manipulative, dirty person. 

I agree with INIT in that we both are sitting on our thumbs. She doesn't want to make a move for whatever reason (security, has her cake, etc) and I don't at times because of losing time with my son. But I realize that staying in this situation without a decision will eventually hurt my son. It's probably hard to understand reading this. Everytime I feel I have clarity something happens to change that (just read this post). Why is that?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

mclovin-

Believe it or not, I am convinced you could get her back. Remind me what are you living arrangements now, are you still in the same house?


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes. We are in the same house right now. We are seperating as I have arranged a house for my wife to live in. The problem is that I just found out that the house (rent free) is no longer an option as the owner had to move back in so now we are back to square one. 

The problem for me is not how to get her back at this point. I mean, how do I live my life wondering if she is going to cheat on me again. Wondering if she is in love with TOM and just with me for the security. Trust is so important to me and I just have never gone through something this harsh.

It's like a double question. How does she get me back and how do I get her back? My family and friends after hearing all this have told me to "move on", so I'm having a hard time not taking their advice because when I reflect on all of this I still wonder why I'm taking it because it has been a lot to deal with. I feel that if I try to reconcile that now I have all the pressure from my family because they basically hate my wife because of what has happened.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Are you in the same bed still?

As for what your family think, I would not bother paying it any attention. It's between you and your wife.


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

We are not and haven't been for some time. One of my wife's irritants. Basically I snore sometimes and she has trouble sleeping to begin with. She sometimes can't fall asleep and stays up until 1am-2am or she falls asleep and then wakes up and can't fall back asleep because she says her mind keeps going. She refuses to go to a doctor to maybe get some prescription for her sleep problems. just like she won't admit she is having any problems during this ordeal.

I basically put our son to bed and many times fall asleep in his room. If not...it's the couch, chair, etc.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

You mean you don't have your own proper bed?


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## sunflower (Dec 15, 2008)

no she cant sleep cause she is guilty.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Mclovin, I snore too. What worked for me is a body pillow. About 4' long. It makes you sleep on your side so you don't snore. It really does work. Next, have your wife rent a room from someone. She can't afford your place anyways. There have got to be tons of people willing to rent a room in this economy. I think your wife's pride/selfishness is keeping her from extricating herself from this. Your wife has a big mouth and very little self control. She is a well of bitterness. And she hates herself. She doesn't hate you. She hates that you can't fix her, or make her happy. Notice how she is always asking you what you want her to do. CRUSH THE PHONE. She figures if she doesn't have you. She has Tom. She says she hates you. As I have said. Hate is not the opposite of love, apathy is. If she did not want to be there she would have left already. She could live anywhere and still see your son. I wish I could come out there and sit down with the two of you. Either that or bang your heads together. There is no leader in your home. You both are waiting for the other to make the first move. Neither of you wants to divorce or separate. She wants you to lead. Again, crush the phone and cut off your house phone. Let her buy a pay as you go. Hell if you have to crush the F-ing computer too. How long do you intend to put your son through this? Can you get your wife to join this site?


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## mclovin (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't have my own bed, no. She's always had a sleeping problem to some extent even before all of this. She's also had problems with anxiety as well sometimes having severe anxiety to the point that she says she loses feelings in her arms. She gets chest pains and stuff like that. But again, refuses to get help or go see someone to figure out why she has anxiety. Most of it, I assume, lies in her childhood. Divorce, abuse and being shuffled around as a kid. She has talked to me about it during this, but again refuses any kind of help or admission that her past is the reason for how she is.

I'm taking action, but it is hard. I agree with what you are saying regarding my wife. I am also at fault for not being more assertive in this situation. As I said in earlier posts I'm moving forward with or without my wife. 

I know that my wife will never admit to having any type of problem. I have offered to help her or get her help and she doesn't believe she has any problem and only says "I'm this way because I'm in an unhappy marriage." Yet she does nothing to try to either resolve the issues in our marriage or move on. 

I have focused on myself and my son over the last few months. Aside from the first couple months of this ordeal he has been shielded from any negatives and continues to be a happy and healthy kid. I have made appointments again to see my counselor (I stopped over the holidays) to discuss my feelings and what I'm going through further. 

I will be talking with my wife this week to lay out what's going to happen with our situation.


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