# Your Workplace Sexual Harassment Experiences



## DownByTheRiver

I put this in ladies lounge only because it seemed to fit in better here but men are welcome to relate their sexual harassment stories as well. 

One thing that would be helpful is if you told whether it happened prior to Anita Hill or after, because before the Anita Hill hearing, there wasn't much hope of doing anything about it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I'm going to put all mine separate so if somebody wants to talk about them separately it will be easier.

Pre-Anita Hill, the first sexual harassment I remember was when I worked as a waitress for a year. There was a guy in the kitchen who would move his hand up and down on the broom he was holding as if masturbating when the girls walked by. The female manager knew about it, but no one did anything about anything in those days.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Sexual harassment in the record stores in the early 70s was almost constant, but it was usually at least good natured and some of us gave back as good as we got. 

The owner of that record chain once stood in front of my friend and coworker, who had some pretty big hooters, and pretended to be tuning an old radio, while saying, "Hello Tokyo! Tokyo!"

She was absolutely furious, though I couldn't help but laugh at it. It was so out of left field. Who was she going to report that to? His wife.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

When I moved to Texas a few years later, I encountered a darker strain of sexual harassment. Before I had even brought my furniture down I went to a radio and record convention. I dressed as conservatively as possible in a Kasper taupe three piece wool suit because I knew it would be an all male Animal House.

As soon as I walked in the door of the hotel lobby for the convention, one of the label guys I didn't know at all because I was new to town came up and grabbed me by the elbow and was leading me away because he thought I was the prostitute they had ordered.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Now I was working at a record store more or less starting all over for very little pay because I had to move abruptly.

This was a big record store with 30 employees at any given time. There were a couple of labels salesman who would come in and be as crude as possible to the women while some of the male employees stood around and laughed because it was entertainment to them. I remember once one of them went up to one of the female employees and told her to get down on her knees and suck his you know what.

The night manager at that same place sexually harassed one of the female employees there all the time. She looked like Christie Brinkley and I don't think he ever looked up from her rack while making suggestive comments to her. She did not find it amusing at all. He would just openly drool at her. She did quit before too long.


----------



## Marc878

Things have changed. This is why.


State, feds reach sexual harassment agreement with employer


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Still pre Anita Hill, the early 80s , it's now working for a corporate office still in the record business, there was a guy who managed one area of the warehouse who was a perv. I had my own office and it was sandwiched in between two different guys offices. Everyone could hear what went on. This guy would come and sit on my desk and demonstrate with his hands how he had oral sex with whoever and keep trying to get into sexual discussions. It was really gross. My immediate supervisor was in the next office. He could hear it. I talked to him about it once. He just acted like yeah it was gross but what was he going to do. One rung over his head was the guy who oversaw certain operations and would have been the overseer of the perv.

I talked to him about it. He was kind of astounded by how that guy acted too but again just acted like there were no options. That perv even told me that he fired one of the girls in his department because she was blonde and dyed her hair dark.

The overseer over the perv would eventually (I was there for 10 years) offer to buy a rent house I could rent from him close to where he and his family lived but the catch was he got a key. I corrected him and said, No. Your wife gets the key. That was the end of that proposition.

Meanwhile, this is the era when the record labels were providing call girls to their clients and our office was major clients. They actually placed one right there in my department and she was kind of a floating assistant. I found out from her her true role.

A few years before, her sister, also a call girl, had been dating my immediate supervisor. She was provided by the label but he was too naive to know that and he didn't figure it out until her sister came to work at our offices. And then he was embarrassed.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Post Anita Hill, 2005, I worked one year at a big auto dealership. We were on golf carts a lot trolling for customers. 

There was an older Hispanic man in the used car division. There were a few younger Hispanic guys who revolved around him but only one who spoke good English. I started noticing that every time I was on the golf cart with any of those guys, they would take me face to face with the older guy. The one who spoke English finally told me that the older guy wanted me and was having them bring me to him. He also told me that he was kind of a Mexican Mafia guy and so the young ones did whatever he told them. He also insinuated that it would be dangerous for me if I didn't do what he wanted as well because he was powerful. 

So this dealership was of course owned by one of the huge Auto groups and they had a employee manual. In the employee manual was a hotline you could call anonymously and report things. So I called that hotline. 

I got a lot of side eye from the supervisors there after that, but none of them could say anything. The old guy did disappear.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Post Anita Hill, I was working in an office where the owner chose beautiful young female employees off the street having nothing to do with their qualifications so he could date them. He was married at the time and I don't know what point the divorce proceedings began but they did. 

One of them was a former cheerleader, and she was engaged. I sat by her and you could always tell they were in the middle of something when you walked up. His receptionist was his other interest at the time, and he fired the cheerleader when she started being out in the open because he didn't want the receptionist to know. 

But while she was there, there was a contract person who did some work for the boss out in public. He was a perv just a whole lot like that one that used to sit on my desk at the record warehouse. He would talk loudly about his sexual exploits and talk about hitting on women he was working with while working on the contract in public. He was gross. He was always trying to talk this crap to the receptionist who was really young. I asked her about it once and she said the boss said he was harmless. She was already involved with the boss, but I didn't know it yet. 

But he would come in and he would try to corner this cheerleader so he could proposition her. I mean he was like Pepe Le Pew. She would get up from her desk because he was standing over her real close talking dirty, and he would just stay hot on her heels. One day he literally had her in a corner. That's when I went and talked to the boss about it. He was trying to pretend it was all harmless and that's when I told him that he was doing this out in public while he was representing his company and that one day it was going to get him in trouble. He did begin to phase him out and just not use him. 

When he got serious with the receptionist, he finally stopped hiring girls only for their looks and things improved around there. 

But you know me talking to him was like asking the fox to watch the hen house.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Marc878 said:


> Things have changed. This is why.
> 
> 
> State, feds reach sexual harassment agreement with employer


I'm certainly glad there has been progress since the early 1990s, but it still goes on. It's a trap that women get caught in whether they wanted to or not.


----------



## minimalME

Did something specific bring all this up for you? 😔


----------



## DownByTheRiver

minimalME said:


> Did something specific bring all this up for you? 😔


The thread about the husband who found text messages on his wife's phone.


----------



## TexasMom1216

When I first moved to the city, I worked for a small software firm. We were doing a presentation for a potential client a few weeks after I started. One of them called me into the conference to “present” to the client. I went into the meeting and started explaining. One of our software engineers said something like “Be sure you reach across the screen so he gets a good view of you.” Then he tossed a pen on the floor and said “Bend over for us and pick that up.” I was shocked, the client was shocked. I excused myself and left the room. After the client left I told that guy, “Your behavior was wildly inappropriate. It makes the entire company look bad when you behave like that.” He started yelling at me to “back off, I’m married.” The owner pulled me into his office, asked me what happened and apologized to me.

A few days later he went on vacation with his family. I was at my desk when the software engineer called to my boss: “He’s in the air.” My boss called me into his office and fired me. Reason: just not a “good fit.”


----------



## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> When I first moved to the city, I worked for a small software firm. We were doing a presentation for a potential client a few weeks after I started. One of them called me into the conference to “present” to the client. I went into the meeting and started explaining. One of our software engineers said something like “Be sure you reach across the screen so he gets a good view of you.” Then he tossed a pen on the floor and said “Bend over for us and pick that up.” I was shocked, the client was shocked. I excused myself and left the room. After the client left I told that guy, “Your behavior was wildly inappropriate. It makes the entire company look bad when you behave like that.” He started yelling at me to “back off, I’m married.” The owner pulled me into his office, asked me what happened and apologized to me.
> 
> A few days later he went on vacation with his family. I was at my desk when the software engineer called to my boss: “He’s in the air.” My boss called me into his office and fired me. Reason: just not a “good fit.”


Typical.


----------



## TexasMom1216

My first real job after college, everyone got a raise but me one year. I went to go find out what I was doing wrong; I’d been promoted, I was taking on more and more responsibility and had a great relationship with everyone. My (female) boss told me: “I’m not going to give you any more money because you need to get married. If you make enough money to pay bills on your own you’ll never settle down and get married, you’ll think you can just work your whole life. You need to grow up, get married and stop trying to make more money and get promotions.”


----------



## Marc878

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm certainly glad there has been progress since the early 1990s, but it still goes on. It's a trap that women get caught in whether they wanted to or not.


These days you have a choice.


----------



## Flowersandsand

Post Anita hill, 2016 i think, i had this one coworker who was always saying inappropriate things to me like lines from r&b songs. I brushed him off until one day he shimmied up a little too close and i just blew up and told him he wasn't going to act like that anymore. He kept his distance but didn't bother other girls probably for fear of another shaming session. I wish it were always that easy for everyone.

2011ish a guy pressed his boner up against me and i backed up to show everyone loudly, we all had a good laugh. 

SHAME THEM.


----------



## TexasMom1216

Flowersandsand said:


> Post Anita hill, 2016 i think, i had this one coworker who was always saying inappropriate things to me like lines from r&b songs. I brushed him off until one day he shimmied up a little too close and i just blew up and told him he wasn't going to act like that anymore. He kept his distance but didn't bother other girls probably for fear of another shaming session. I wish it were always that easy for everyone.
> 
> 2011ish a guy pressed his boner up against me and i backed up to show everyone loudly, we all had a good laugh.
> 
> SHAME THEM.


You are SO right. The best defense is a good offense. These men have been taught their entire lives that women are just there for them to use. They expect you to be afraid because they believe that is how women are supposed to act. They are bullies and back down quickly when confronted.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> My first real job after college, everyone got a raise but me one year. I went to go find out what I was doing wrong; I’d been promoted, I was taking on more and more responsibility and had a great relationship with everyone. My (female) boss told me: “I’m not going to give you any more money because you need to get married. If you make enough money to pay bills on your own you’ll never settle down and get married, you’ll think you can just work your whole life. You need to grow up, get married and stop trying to make more money and get promotions.”


Oh, yeah, employers basing your pay on whether you're married or not. I guess this is why men start feeling the pressure at about age 30 to be married.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Marc878 said:


> These days you have a choice.


What is that choice? If it's going on and it's sanctioned all the way to the top, the choice is either to leave or to raise hell and be fired. I can't count how many times the EEOC has told me I could sue, but who's got the money for that? And in my early career I was in a profession that was a very small world and I never would have worked in it again and it was my dream to be in it. Certainly not my dream to put up with all the crap I put up with, but there was a good side and that's one reason the competition was so vicious.


----------



## Marc878

DownByTheRiver said:


> What is that choice? If it's going on and it's sanctioned all the way to the top, the choice is either to leave or to raise hell and be fired. I can't count how many times the EEOC has told me I could sue, but who's got the money for that? And in my early career I was in a profession that was a very small world and I never would have worked in it again and it was my dream to be in it. Certainly not my dream to put up with all the crap I put up with, but there was a good side and that's one reason the competition was so vicious.


Be a victim or not. Major lawsuits have occurred that’s why companies are paying close attention to to this.
Attorneys work pro bono for proceeds from settlements.


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, yeah, employers basing your pay on whether you're married or not. I guess this is why men start feeling the pressure at about age 30 to be married.


The manager I had when I got pregnant, the one who told me he knew nothing about the maternity leave policy because he’d never “had someone get pregnant at work,” told me bringing women into the workplace started this “garbage” where your pay was based on performance instead of need. “I had a wife and two kids to support, before you women ruined everything, I’d have been paid what I needed for that. Now there’s so much competition.” This happened in 2009.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Marc878 said:


> Be a victim or not. Major lawsuits have occurred that’s why companies are paying close attention to to this.
> Attorneys work pro bono for proceeds from settlements.


A whole lot of attorneys do not work on a contingency on something like this. I'm very familiar with some of the lawsuits. But you know job application always asks if you have sued a company. So you better win enough to set yourself up for life.


----------



## Marc878

DownByTheRiver said:


> A whole lot of attorneys do not work on a contingency on something like this. I'm very familiar with some of the lawsuits. But you know job application always asks if you have sued a company. So you better win enough to set yourself up for life.


Really. I’ve worked for 6 different companies and never saw that on any application.


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> A whole lot of attorneys do not work on a contingency on something like this. I'm very familiar with some of the lawsuits. But you know job application always asks if you have sued a company. So you better win enough to set yourself up for life.


I have been in the HR offices when they (all female) have said “X has a lawsuit. Toss hers in the trash.” Not the most professional crew to say that out loud but that is the attitude. No one is going to hire a woman who sues for harassment. I haven’t seen it on an application but they contact former employers and ask. If you think certain things are off-limits you live in fantasy land.


----------



## minimalME

I don't recall poor treatment during jobs.

My sexual harassment has been family members and dates.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Marc878 said:


> Really. I’ve worked for 6 different companies and never saw that on any application.


Maybe they only hand that application out to the female applicants, but it's been on a few of the ones I've seen. I have seen it on documents requested for legal purposes. They want to know if you're suing for that or race discrimination or personal injury. Or they will have a background check done on you to find out.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

minimalME said:


> I don't recall poor treatment during jobs.
> 
> My sexual harassment has been family members and dates.


Well I'm mostly working at home now, so I don't have to worry about it anymore.


----------



## OnTheRocks

DownByTheRiver said:


> Maybe they only hand that application out to the female applicants, but it's been on a few of the ones I've seen. I have seen it on documents requested for legal purposes. They want to know if you're suing for that or race discrimination or personal injury. Or they will have a background check done on you to find out.


Never seen that on a job app. 

You have some seriously whack personal examples on this topic. I'm guessing you've been very attractive throughout your life? This doesn't seem to be a normal level.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

OnTheRocks said:


> Never seen that on a job app.
> 
> You have some seriously whack personal examples on this topic. I'm guessing you've been very attractive throughout your life? This doesn't seem to be a normal level.


No. The real pretty ones had it a lot worse than I had it..


----------



## TexasMom1216

It depends on your field. DBTR was exponentially cooler than me, and had a WAY cooler job. I’ve been in tech my whole career, mostly for O&G. My stories will be tamer than hers. If someone was a teacher or worked in the family flower shop they’re not going to have the same stories as someone in entertainment or music or construction.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Flowersandsand said:


> Post Anita hill, 2016 i think, i had this one coworker who was always saying inappropriate things to me like lines from r&b songs. I brushed him off until one day he shimmied up a little too close and i just blew up and told him he wasn't going to act like that anymore. He kept his distance but didn't bother other girls probably for fear of another shaming session. I wish it were always that easy for everyone.
> 
> 2011ish a guy pressed his boner up against me and i backed up to show everyone loudly, we all had a good laugh.
> 
> SHAME THEM.


I did eventually learn that busting them out loud and loudly in front of other employees was the best way to deal with them. Yes if only it worked that well every time, but when they have buddies in the office that think he's funny and agree with what he's doing it doesn't work as well.


----------



## Julie's Husband

TexasMom1216 said:


> He started yelling at me to “back off, I’m married.”


Hopefully you let his wife know before you walked out the door.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> It depends on your field. DBTR was exponentially cooler than me, and had a WAY cooler job. I’ve been in tech my whole career, mostly for O&G. My stories will be tamer than hers. If someone was a teacher or worked in the family flower shop they’re not going to have the same stories as someone in entertainment or music or construction.


Yeah but I haven't been in music since mid 1990s. I still see it when I've been in an office, whether it's directed at me or not.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Ironically, when my last office boss was still in the mode of hiring beautiful young girls, the thing that really jammed him up his word got around and they started coming there and then immediately getting pregnant and taking pregnancy leave, and that was costing him money. So he did change his ways at least though.


----------



## Julie's Husband

x


----------



## TexasMom1216

Julie's Husband said:


> Hopefully you let his wife know before you walked out the door.


Never met her. Or I would have. Although I suspect she knew.


----------



## TexasMom1216

Julie's Husband said:


> Tough ****.


Seems kinda rude. I’m not sure why you posted this.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

During the music years, there were buyouts and going public and mergers. During a lot of that, we were under the umbrella of one really huge corporation and then one that remains one of the biggest conglomerates in the world.

What they do is they have you sign away you're rights. They'll try to have you sign a mediation clause and also something saying that the company can change the rules at any time. They completely inoculate themselves.


Then after that one my last position was with another huge company, and I did sign a deal with them when I left. I was running that office so the worst thing that happened there as far as any sexual harassment was going to a regional meeting and the regional manager trying to drag everyone to a strip club. I wouldn't go.


----------



## Julie's Husband

I have perhaps a very Don Quixote outlook of idealized innocence, out to protect women's virtue so I have real problems with disrespectful and manipulative men. Even today I am all "no flirt, no touch".

On the harassment side, though, does a 50s aged woman with okay body, tobacco and alcohol weathered face and personality of a truck stop waitress pressing her bosom up against her 18 and 19 year old male co workers count? That was when I was working as a dishwasher in the local hospital.

I worked for XEROX engineering in the 80s and we were required to attend a sexual harassment sensitivity training.

First thing, I was surprised that the video demonstrating casual sexual harassment included a woman adjusting the tie of a male co worker. Another surprise was that when the lady leading the session asked who felt they'd experienced sexual harassment on the job, most of the men (myself included) raised their hand.

For my part, I was shy and felt annoyed that one of the female co workers seemed to be trying to get male workers to pay attention to her bosom. She walked with her chest so pushed out that she looked sway back. I thought my suspicion was confirmed when I saw her relaxing her bust when she thought no one was looking.

I am also adverse to touch so become annoyed with touchy feely type women. I don't take time to figure their motive as I don't care for it either way. This didn't help when I was in sales tech support. I know I'm overly sensitive and just recently decided to try to desensitize by having massage. Might be working.


----------



## Julie's Husband

TexasMom1216 said:


> Seems kinda rude. I’m not sure why you posted this.


Sorry. Not well thought out. I was trying to say that I have no patience with the man's attitude.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Julie's Husband said:


> I have perhaps a very Don Quixote outlook of idealized innocence, out to protect women's virtue so I have real problems with disrespectful and manipulative men. Even today I am all "no flirt, no touch".
> 
> On the harassment side, though, does a 50s aged woman with okay body, tobacco and alcohol weathered face and personality of a truck stop waitress pressing her bosom up against her 18 and 19 year old male co workers count? That was when I was working as a dishwasher in the local hospital.
> 
> I worked for XEROX engineering in the 80s and we were required to attend a sexual harassment sensitivity training.
> 
> First thing, I was surprised that the video demonstrating casual sexual harassment included a woman adjusting the tie of a male co worker. Another surprise was that when the lady leading the session asked who felt they'd experienced sexual harassment on the job, most of the men (myself included) raised their hand.
> 
> For my part, I was shy and felt annoyed that one of the female co workers seemed to be trying to get male workers to pay attention to her bosom. She walked with her chest so pushed out that she looked sway back. I thought my suspicion was confirmed when I saw her relaxing her bust when she thought no one was looking.
> 
> I am also adverse to touch so become annoyed with touchy feely type women. I don't take time to figure their motive as I don't care for it either way. This didn't help when I was in sales tech support. I know I'm overly sensitive and just recently decided to try to desensitize by having massage. Might be working.


Certainly pressing your bosom up against anyone in the workplace is harassment. That's why there's rules because maybe one of those 18-year-olds enjoyed that and maybe the other one was cringey about it like you would have been.


----------



## EleGirl

DownByTheRiver said:


> A whole lot of attorneys do not work on a contingency on something like this. I'm very familiar with some of the lawsuits. But you know job application always asks if you have sued a company. So you better win enough to set yourself up for life.


Yea, I saw an attorney after one very bad incident at work in about 1998. After it explained what happened to the attorney, he said that I had a very strong case and would probably win. But then he said that if I sue I'll never be able to find another job, ever. I would be black balled. He said he saw this happen to women who have sexual harassment cases. He would not take the case because of that. I was working for a fortune 50 company; they held the cards. I found a new job. The only good thing is that I increased by income by 50% and got a nice sign on bonus at the new job.


----------



## TexasMom1216

Julie's Husband said:


> Sorry. Not well thought out. I was trying to say that I have no patience with the man's attitude.


I see. I mean, I was having a baby with my husband. I was so confused. 🤪😉


----------



## EleGirl

TexasMom1216 said:


> I have been in the HR offices when they (all female) have said “X has a lawsuit. Toss hers in the trash.” Not the most professional crew to say that out loud but that is the attitude. No one is going to hire a woman who sues for harassment. I haven’t seen it on an application but they contact former employers and ask. If you think certain things are off-limits you live in fantasy land.


In the early 1980's I knew a guy who was a CPA at one of the big 8 accounting firms. He told me that when they receive an application and/or resume from a qualified female CPA, they would throw it in the trash. He said that way they could never be sued because they could claim that they never got to resume & application. He was bragging about it when he told me. Ass hat.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> Yea, I saw an attorney after one very bad incident at work in about 1998. After it explained what happened to the attorney, he said that I had a very strong case and would probably win. But then he said that if I sue I'll never be able to find another job, ever. I would be black balled. He said he saw this happen to women who have sexual harassment cases. He would not take the case because of that. I was working for a fortune 50 company; they held the cards. I found a new job. The only good thing is that I increased by income by 50% and got a nice sign on bonus at the new job.


I was blackballed for an entirely different reason. EEOC really thought I should sue. It was more wrongful termination and retaliation. I was so over having to deal with all that. It really broke me not to be able to do what I wanted anymore but that whole thing was getting ready to come to an end anyway because of piracy. And I did get back in it after one of the black ballers got out of the region. Like the day he left, I got a call for a job after being blackballed for 4 years or something.

But by then I had already started working for myself doing something entirely different and I am still doing that today but of course I have had various and sundry jobs on the side where I do work for other people from time to time, but at my age and no more money than I can make at my age I'm not taking any crap off anybody.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> In the early 1980's I knew a guy who was a CPA at one of the big 8 accounting firms. He told me that when they received an application and/or resume from a qualified female CPA, they would throw it in the trash. He said that way they could never be sued because they could claim that they never got the resume & application. He was bragging about it when he told me. Ass hat.


It's real.


----------



## EleGirl

I was 22, in college, married, and worked in the offices at a department store. I had an office all to myself, so it was rather private. One of the department managers started dropping into my office at a regular basis. He would stand behind me, start massaging my shoulders and telling me about the wet dream he had about me the night before. It was just gross. I don't remember now how it stopped, I just remember that i was remarkable cold to him and his gross advances.

At the same job, there were restrooms in the stock rooms for employees in our department. The restrooms shared a wall. After I'd been working there for about 2 years, we found out that someone had put a hole in the wall from the men's room to the woman's room. Guys we worked with used to peep at the women when we were in the bathroom. When this became common knowledge, the hole was filled. No one ever talked about it again and management just pretended it never happened. From what I could tell, it was one of the managers who put that peep hole in the wall to start with. 

That's just one job.


----------



## EleGirl

Just remembered another one... I'll post some of them when they come to mind.

When I was a junior/senior in high school I worked as a hostess at a very upscale restaurant in the best hotel in town. The hotel manager was a young 30ish mafioso type. Very good looking and very much had that mafioso "I'm the big guy" attitude. Very often he would sit in the restaurant staring at me. Sometimes he would say a few things. But mostly staring. Then he started making the moves. One of his moves was to sit there with his hand on his ****. Since he was at a table covered in a tablecloth, I was the only one in the restaurant who could see this, and he's just smile at me. I just ignored him. One night I was walking by his table, and he said something like "I saw you looking at this." and he grabbed his crotch. I just looked at him like he was nuts and kept walking.

My brother who is a year younger than me worked banquet at the same hotel. The manager had all the young guys as buddies. He'd have parties in the manager's suit, give all the guys (many of them high school students) as much booze as they wanted... drink at the party and then let them take bottles home. The guys loved my mafioso admirer (the gross blah).


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> I was 22, in college, married, and worked in the offices at a department store. I had an office all to myself, so it was rather private. One of the department managers started dropping into my office at a regular basis. He would stand behind me, start massaging my shoulders and telling me about the wet dream he had about me the night before. It was just gross. I don't remember now how it stopped, I just remember that i was remarkable cold to him and his gross advances.
> 
> At the same job, there were restrooms in the stock rooms for employees in our department. The restrooms shared a wall. After I'd been working there for about 2 years, we found out that someone had put a hole in the wall from the men's room to the woman's room. Guys we worked with used to peep at the women when we were in the bathroom. When this became common knowledge, the hole was filled. No one ever talked about it again and management just pretended it never happened. From what I could tell, it was one of the managers who put that peep hole in the wall to start with.
> 
> That's just one job.


Ick.


----------



## ccpowerslave

TexasMom1216 said:


> someone in entertainment


I’m in entertainment and the stories I have seen in 25 years are completely outrageous and over the top. Fortunately some of these guys got fired and that was before #metoo. I go by Mike Pence rules now. My last business trip my wife came with me so I stayed out of all the chicanery going on after the trade shows. I always say no to all of that anyway and my crew are all married guys of “good character” although we all party just not with women.


----------



## TexasMom1216

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m in entertainment and the stories I have seen in 25 years are completely outrageous and over the top. Fortunately some of these guys got fired and that was before #metoo. I go by Mike Pence rules now. My last business trip my wife came with me so I stayed out of all the chicanery going on after the trade shows. I always say no to all of that anyway and my crew are all married guys of “good character” although we all party just not with women.


I go by Mike Pence rules too. I have to, we see how it is for women in business. One slip up and the whole thing is on you, and women are judged by the worst of us. If she’s freaked out when he started texting her, she’d already have been fired. If anything #metoo made it worse because the cases that got the most publicity ended up being fake. Weinstein went down, that’s it.


----------



## EleGirl

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m in entertainment and the stories I have seen in 25 years are completely outrageous and over the top. Fortunately some of these guys got fired and that was before #metoo. I go by Mike Pence rules now. My last business trip my wife came with me so I stayed out of all the chicanery going on after the trade shows. I always say no to all of that anyway and my crew are all married guys of “good character” although we all party just not with women.


Two of my brothers were ballet dancers in their youth. They danced and studied at American Ballet Theater in NYC among other companies. They were young and very good looking, and straight. Directors of some of the companies they danced with would do things to try to trade them off to gay patrons in exchange for donations. After about 10 years of dealing with that nonsense, they left the dance world.

After that they joined the US Army and went Airborne. (Yea my family is weird)


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m in entertainment and the stories I have seen in 25 years are completely outrageous and over the top. Fortunately some of these guys got fired and that was before #metoo. I go by Mike Pence rules now. My last business trip my wife came with me so I stayed out of all the chicanery going on after the trade shows. I always say no to all of that anyway and my crew are all married guys of “good character” although we all party just not with women.


I was approximately 50 when that harassment happened at the auto dealership and I consider it some of the worst because there were threats involved. It can happen anywhere.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> Two of my brothers were ballet dancers in their youth. They danced and studied at American Ballet Theater in NYC among other companies. They were young and very good looking, and straight. Directors of some of the companies they danced with would do things to try to trade them off to gay patrons in exchange for donations. After about 10 years of dealing with that nonsense, they left the dance world.
> 
> After that they joined the US Army and went Airborne. (Yea my family is weird)


That sounds about right! Always someone looking to pimp you out.


----------



## EleGirl

DownByTheRiver said:


> That sounds about right! Always someone looking to pimp you out.


Sadly, in the entertainment industry especially.


----------



## ccpowerslave

TexasMom1216 said:


> I go by Mike Pence rules too. I have to, we see how it is for women in business. One slip up and the whole thing is on you, and women are judged by the worst of us. If she’s freaked out when he started texting her, she’d already have been fired. If anything #metoo made it worse because the cases that got the most publicity ended up being fake. Weinstein went down, that’s it.


So I can say if one of my guys was accused I would report to HR immediately. Failure to report is the same as harassment.

One issue is when HR is at the events where the harassment or even sexual assault occurs. I wasn’t there but I heard about it second hand. All of those people eventually got kicked out.

Basically crazy young people + alcohol + drugs = bad things happening.


----------



## TexasMom1216

ccpowerslave said:


> So I can say if one of my guys was accused I would report to HR immediately. Failure to report is the same as harassment.
> 
> One issue is when HR is at the events where the harassment or even sexual assault occurs. I wasn’t there but I heard about it second hand. All of those people eventually got kicked out.
> 
> Basically crazy young people + alcohol + drugs = bad things happening.


It’s why I don’t do work happy hours. There is nothing happening I need to be a part of.

One year, the week after the company Christmas party I learned that I got hammered, danced on tables and made out with two, yes TWO, guys.

The party was the same night as my birthday. I was at dinner with my husband and another couple. I didn’t go to the party.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Ah one big thing that is different. Maybe 10+ years ago there was a lot of strip club culture surrounding the office here. I never went because well I’m married and I took crap for it.

Imagine if you’re a woman! Hey let’s go out after work! Her: where? The Gold Club! Um… no thanks. It puts someone who wants to hang out with the guys on her left foot right away because she either says no, or she says yes (even worse).

Our training now we have this exact situation and ones related to it in the mandatory courses. There’s actually an entire segment on strip clubs, porn, and sexually suggestive materials.

I am lucky in that some of the guys who were my boss as I was coming up had zero tolerance the whole time so I learned zero tolerance, even for your best employees if they step out they gotta go.


----------



## ccpowerslave

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s why I don’t do work happy hours. There is nothing happening I need to be a part of.
> 
> One year, the week after the company Christmas party I learned that I got hammered, danced on tables and made out with two, yes TWO, guys.
> 
> The party was the same night as my birthday. I was at dinner with my husband and another couple. I didn’t go to the party.


If one of my guys did that, I’d take his ass to HR.

The thing is as a senior person or manager people key off what you do and how you behave. So I like people to have fun and party and such but there is a line and you do not cross it.

I think the last team I had before Covid we had a bunch of women at least half and some young ones right out of college. We went for drinks at a couple of the bars near the office but even up to my boss people knew we provided a safe environment and had zero tolerance. We had free Lyft and Uber. We often had our HR rep there.


----------



## TexasMom1216

ccpowerslave said:


> If one of my guys did that, I’d take his ass to HR.
> 
> The thing is as a senior person or manager people key off what you do and how you behave. So I like people to have fun and party and such but there is a line and you do not cross it.
> 
> I think the last team I had before Covid we had a bunch of women at least half and some young ones right out of college. We went for drinks at a couple of the bars near the office but even up to my boss people knew we provided a safe environment and had zero tolerance. We had free Lyft and Uber. We often had our HR rep there.


You’re completely right about this. When you have good people in the right positions you’re fine. The CEO was a decent enough guy but the middle managers and especially those shrieking harpies in HR were awful and not to be trusted. But the pay and benefits were amazeballs.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> Sadly, in the entertainment industry especially.


They were trying to pimp me out at the freaking auto dealership too!


----------



## ccpowerslave

TexasMom1216 said:


> You’re completely right about this. When you have good people in the right positions you’re fine. The CEO was a decent enough guy but the middle managers and especially those shrieking harpies in HR were awful and not to be trusted. But the pay and benefits were amazeballs.


Yeah sometimes HR is the problem. Famously (infamously) an HR partner I worked with was at an after work thing at a hotel bar and he got so wasted he literally collapsed out of the bar stool and face planted onto the floor. I was not at that particular event (thank God).


----------



## TexasMom1216

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah sometimes HR is the problem. Famously (infamously) an HR partner I worked with was at an after work thing at a hotel bar and he got so wasted he literally collapsed out of the bar stool and face planted onto the floor. I was not at that particular event (thank God).


Ours were bitter, sad, left-wing harpies. Just vile people. Between the whole department there were 30 cats and zero souls.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> Ours were bitter, sad, left-wing harpies. Just vile people. Between the whole department there were 30 cats and zero souls.


HR people these days are more like damage control attorneys for companies.


----------



## gold5932

I was 23, early 80's. Worked at a large, conservative software company. My site manager gave me a pair of panties at the Christmas exchange. I can't remember the exact words on the butt, I think they were "Hot Stuff. Humiliation followed as I opened that present in front of 50 people.

Same place, my direct manager told me that if I let him feel me up, he'd gift me a 2 week stay at the company condo in Colorado. Told him to f off and he didn't speak to me for a year. I transferred as quick as I could.


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> HR people these days are more like damage control attorneys for companies.


They do NOT care about employees. They’re there to protect the company. Hence the budget line item for settlements so the company kept their dirty laundry out of the courts and the news.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

gold5932 said:


> I was 23, early 80's. Worked at a large, conservative software company. My site manager gave me a pair of panties at the Christmas exchange. I can't remember the exact words on the butt, I think they were "Hot Stuff. Humiliation followed as I opened that present in front of 50 people.
> 
> Same place, my direct manager told me that if I let him feel me up, he'd gift me a 2 week stay at the company condo in Colorado. Told him to f off and he didn't speak to me for a year. I transferred as quick as I could.


That's horrible. See, these managers set the tone for that crap. Good for you for telling him off.


----------



## gold5932

Next job for same company but at a union facility. Multiple men would follow me to my office and my manager just didn't care. But he did write me up for wearing snow boots into the facility, didn't matter it was snowing. Heels were required.

Same place, I was walking thru the plant in the designated area and a guy grabbed me and pulled me into the line. Thank god some of the oldtimers saw this.

There are just too many instances to list.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I'll tell you a late '80s sexual harassment on a man. I witnessed it in the planning stages and then I heard about the rest the next day.

There was a promotional dinner for this band, but if memory serves the only one of the band that was there was the singer. He was a model good looks pretty boy. It was a new band, first album.

He wasn't at all interested in anyone at that table. I'm sure he was probably dating models. He wasn't even very good at socializing. It was just doing his duty for promotion.

There were label reps from two different label companies there. They were older. It was two older men and a pretty frumpy middle-aged woman. The artist was on the men's label. The woman was just around because she hung around those men but she was a manager at another label there in town..

They were good and drunk when they arrived. She was so drunk she started talking crap about how lucky I was to be in the position I was in and she was acting like it was some given that me and this guy artist would have anything to do with each other. She was just so drunk that her jealousy came out for no reason because there was absolutely nothing between me and this guy. As I said he wasn't very social anyway.

So after the dinner, story goes that the label men brought her up to his hotel room and banged on the door to get in trying to get her laid by him. Apparently it was a real fiasco and everyone in town knew about it. I can't even imagine how drunk they all were by then but it was apparently just in the middle of the night when they went over there.

So that's who got sexually harassed that night. And I was just glad it wasn't me!

The good thing is after the scene at the dinner table, she pretty much just gave me a permanent access pass to her label as an apology. We didn't talk about it. She just gave it to me.


----------



## heartsbeating

I'm going slightly rogue with this post, intended as lighthearted balance, yet when I was in the music scene and not really under an 'employer', I experienced a kind of demonstrated protectiveness by my male-peers at gigs. I was 17 and had met a guy who was a couple years older than me earlier in the day while in the city, shared brief conversation and spark of chemistry, and he came to see me at the club later. I was on the dance-floor when he walked over and without saying a word, pulled me close and we snogged; which was welcomed by me. In an instant, the guys I knew in the scene had swarmed around to warn him off. I reassured them it was fine but as it took _him_ by surprise, he decided it was best to leave. We hadn't exchanged numbers, just conversation and saliva on the dance-floor, and didn't see one another again. From their perspective, they just saw this random make a beeline for me.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

heartsbeating said:


> I'm going slightly rogue with this post, intended as lighthearted balance, yet when I was in the music scene and not really under an 'employer', I experienced a kind of demonstrated protectiveness by my male-peers at gigs. I was 17 and had met a guy who was a couple years older than me earlier in the day while in the city, shared brief conversation and spark of chemistry, and he came to see me at the club later. I was on the dance-floor when he walked over and without saying a word, pulled me close and we snogged; which was welcomed by me. In an instant, the guys I knew in the scene had swarmed around to warn him off. I reassured them it was fine but as it took _him_ by surprise, he decided it was best to leave. We hadn't exchanged numbers, just conversation and saliva on the dance-floor, and didn't see one another again. From their perspective, they just saw this random make a beeline for me.


Because you were young. Probably also because some of them wanted you. They didn't want some random making off with you!


----------



## Marc878

On my first accounting position out of college. I went from a production head operator working shift work in a chemical plant wearing steel toed boots, hard hat and lunch bucket on a Wednesday to a 3 piece suit and tie with a briefcase flying out to Detroit on a plane Monday morning. I was a very naive kid. 
Anyway when I got back to my home office I was bent over a printer getting a report. The old green bar computer scrolls. One of the young secretaries calmly turned around in her chair and pinched my ass.
I was completely dumbfounded. She said nothing and I was thinking did that just happen?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Marc878 said:


> On my first accounting position out of college. I went from a production head operator working shift work in a chemical plant wearing steel toed boots, hard hat and lunch bucket on a Wednesday to a 3 piece suit and tie with a briefcase flying out to Detroit on a plane Monday morning. I was a very naive kid.
> Anyway when I got back to my home office I was bent over a printer getting a report. The old green bar computer scrolls. One of the young secretaries calmly turned around in her chair and pinched my ass.
> I was completely dumbfounded. She said nothing and I was thinking did that just happen?


That was bold! I sure wouldn't try anything like that.


----------



## Marc878

DownByTheRiver said:


> That was bold! I sure wouldn't try anything like that.


I still to this day can hardly believe it. I’m 6’2” with a scrawny ass😳
I guess she was breaking me in?


----------



## heartsbeating

Anyway, back more on topic, aside from a few questionable quips back in the day, I've only dealt with one creep (for the peanut gallery not just my perception, his actions) of my own accord.

Beyond that, the only time I've gone to a manager about someone was within the last couple of years. And not from the mindset of sexual harassment. More that my spidey senses were sparked as to whether this guy (a vendor) was going to lack boundaries / keep turning up at the workplace to see me when it wasn't needed. During a work phone call, despite explaining our processes, he insisted that he drop by with the paperwork. He asked when I'd be about. (I acknowledge that could be interpreted in an innocent way). I requested that he leave the paperwork with our receptionist as I couldn't confirm when I'd be free. He was insistent that he wanted to meet. My tail bristled at the insistence. I reasserted the receptionist could help if I wasn't around. I told receptionist to expect him and what was needed. He asked for me but the receptionist helped instead. The following week, he unexpectedly dropped by and asked to see me. This time the receptionist didn't gate-keep. As I walked towards him, he boldly said, 'Ahh... _here's_ the good looking one. I knew you would be. It was worth the visit.' I kept the dialogue professional. Colleagues heard with mixed reactions. Maybe he thought he was being charming, yet cutting to the chase here, and dealing with him on the phone again, I had concern that he'd keep visiting. Like I said, there was no reason to and without dramatizing something that need not be dramatic, I was just on alert. While I did feel a bit weird doing so, I explained to my manager who understood and with both of us having a balanced perspective about it. Sure enough, he unnecessarily came by the office again and asked for me. I was in a meeting or out or something, and my manager was aware that he was there and went to see him instead, explained our processes to him again (and which meant that visiting the office was not part of that). Manager called me in after and essentially also felt he could be a problem and it had been relayed to the team that his contact with me was to be limited. I personally chalk that scenario up to spidey senses. And focused on using another vendor instead.


----------



## RandomDude

Would flirting with me and touching me nonstop at work for 2 months despite me showing no signals back, playing dumb and excusing myself be considered sexual harassment?

Not for me! But I guess it's because she was attractive.








Marc878 said:


> I still to this day can hardly believe it. I’m 6’2” with a scrawny ass😳
> I guess she was breaking me in?


Means she likes them tight


----------



## Marc878

RandomDude said:


> Would flirting with me and touching me nonstop at work for 2 months despite me showing no signals back, playing dumb and excusing myself be considered sexual harassment?
> 
> Not for me! But I guess it's because she was attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Means she likes them tight


More like boney


----------



## RandomDude

Marc878 said:


> More like boney


Maybe that's her type


----------



## Marc878

RandomDude said:


> Would flirting with me and touching me nonstop at work for 2 months despite me showing no signals back, playing dumb and excusing myself be considered sexual harassment?
> 
> Not for me! But I guess it's because she was attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Means she likes them tight


That was Tom Brady or his twin.😳


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Marc878 said:


> I still to this day can hardly believe it. I’m 6’2” with a scrawny ass😳
> I guess she was breaking me in?


She thought it needed pinching. Rude.


----------



## Marc878

EleGirl said:


> Yea, I saw an attorney after one very bad incident at work in about 1998. After it explained what happened to the attorney, he said that I had a very strong case and would probably win. But then he said that if I sue I'll never be able to find another job, ever. I would be black balled. He said he saw this happen to women who have sexual harassment cases. He would not take the case because of that. I was working for a fortune 50 company; they held the cards. I found a new job. The only good thing is that I increased by income by 50% and got a nice sign on bonus at the new job.


Not to thread jack but I found if I was at a job more three years they would bring people in with less experience than I had time with the company and pay them more than I was making. (I was in finance so I saw everyone’s salary). It was universal. Every company did it. I only asked for a raise once. From then on if I felt I was worth more money I just floated a resume. I once got a 31% increase. I changed jobs often. 😂 plus the relocation pay was great. They paid all realty fees, moving expenses, etc.


----------



## TexasMom1216

EleGirl said:


> Yea, I saw an attorney after one very bad incident at work in about 1998. After it explained what happened to the attorney, he said that I had a very strong case and would probably win. But then he said that if I sue I'll never be able to find another job, ever. I would be black balled. He said he saw this happen to women who have sexual harassment cases. He would not take the case because of that. I was working for a fortune 50 company; they held the cards. I found a new job. The only good thing is that I increased by income by 50% and got a nice sign on bonus at the new job.


Thank you for acknowledging this. No one seems to believe me. This is a VERY real thing. It's why the difference between "settling" a case and winning it is so important. Once a company "settles" a case you're labeled a troublemaker out for cash. You're un-hireable, and many industries don't allow anonymous job hopping. You get a bad rep and you're done for, which is why so many women just tolerate harassment. They don't have the luxury men have of having people take their word for it.


----------



## Enigma32

TexasMom1216 said:


> Thank you for acknowledging this. No one seems to believe me. This is a VERY real thing. It's why the difference between "settling" a case and winning it is so important. Once a company "settles" a case you're labeled a troublemaker out for cash. You're un-hireable, and many industries don't allow anonymous job hopping. You get a bad rep and you're done for, which is why so many women just tolerate harassment. They don't have the luxury men have of having people take their word for it.


Men get sexually harassed too, but no one seems to care, including the men. I'm not even a good looking guy and I've been sexually harassed at every job I worked for a significant amount of time, including my current one. Maybe men are more likely to be believed in this situations, I don't know, but I do know that no one seems to care either way. If I tried to play like I was some sort of victim over this stuff, people would laugh.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

DownByTheRiver said:


> When I moved to Texas a few years later, I encountered a darker strain of sexual harassment. Before I had even brought my furniture down I went to a radio and record convention. I dressed as conservatively as possible in a Kasper taupe three piece wool suit because I knew it would be an all male Animal House.
> 
> As soon as I walked in the door of the hotel lobby for the convention, one of the label guys I didn't know at all because I was new to town came up and grabbed me by the elbow and was leading me away because he thought I was the prostitute they had ordered.


Side note: I attended the same convention the next year, but this time I wore a leather jacket and a leather jacketed punk band. They already knew the story, so they were my protection.


----------



## TexasMom1216

Enigma32 said:


> Men get sexually harassed too, but no one seems to care, including the men. I'm not even a good looking guy and I've been sexually harassed at every job I worked for a significant amount of time, including my current one. Maybe men are more likely to be believed in this situations, I don't know, but I do know that no one seems to care either way. If I tried to play like I was some sort of victim over this stuff, people would laugh.


I'm not sure I recall anyone defending women who sexually harass men. I do recall a story of a woman being fired for that behavior. I'm not sure what your point is.


----------



## Enigma32

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm not sure I recall anyone defending women who sexually harass men. I do recall a story of a woman being fired for that behavior. I'm not sure what your point is.


You said that men have the privilege of being believed more often, which may be possible for all I know. You said that if you speak up about sexual harassment that you will face a negative stigma, maybe true again. I'm just giving the male perspective. Yeah, maybe we are believed as men, but no one is gonna do anything about it. A settlement? Not likely. When I am sexually harassed, people take it as a joke....myself included. Hell, I had a woman basically force me to touch her boobs just yesterday just because I wasn't friendly enough. People I've told believe the story, but they laugh. So did I. That's the difference.


----------



## RandomDude

Enigma32 said:


> Men get sexually harassed too, but no one seems to care, including the men. I'm not even a good looking guy and I've been sexually harassed at every job I worked for a significant amount of time, including my current one. Maybe men are more likely to be believed in this situations, I don't know, but I do know that no one seems to care either way. If I tried to play like I was some sort of victim over this stuff, people would laugh.


Depends, was she attractive?


----------



## TexasMom1216

Enigma32 said:


> You said that men have the privilege of being believed more often, which may be possible for all I know. You said that if you speak up about sexual harassment that you will face a negative stigma, maybe true again. I'm just giving the male perspective. Yeah, maybe we are believed as men, but no one is gonna do anything about it. A settlement? Not likely. When I am sexually harassed, people take it as a joke....myself included. Hell, I had a woman basically force me to touch her boobs just yesterday just because I wasn't friendly enough. People I've told believe the story, but they laugh. So did I. That's the difference.


OK, I understand. That makes sense. I don't think that's fair; I think all inappropriate behavior, regardless of the source, should be removed from the professional environment. Forcing you to touch her boobs is no different than you forcing her to touch you somewhere personal, it's assault. It's all wrong.


----------



## RandomDude

TexasMom1216 said:


> OK, I understand. That makes sense. I don't think that's fair; I think all inappropriate behavior, regardless of the source, should be removed from the professional environment. Forcing you to touch her boobs is no different than you forcing her to touch you somewhere personal, it's assault. It's all wrong.


His example IS a tad full on, but what is workplace flirting vs workplace harassment?

I was technically harassed for 2 months but I ended up crushing on her in the end so


----------



## Enigma32

RandomDude said:


> Depends, was she attractive?


Some of them over the years have been! This last one was a drunk old lady though. She asked me to hand her something and when I did, she pulled my hand into her chest and held it there a moment. Pretended it was an accident. I know she's full of crap because she went out of her way to see me several times for no reason.


----------



## TexasMom1216

RandomDude said:


> His example IS a tad full on, but what is workplace flirting vs workplace harassment?
> 
> I was technically harassed for 2 months but I ended up crushing on her in the end so


We're kind of having a serious talk here. 

Flirting doesn't belong in the workplace. Ever. It's unprofessional and irresponsible. It causes problems for everyone, not just the people flirting. Supervisors and co-workers also have to deal with it. On another thread a woman is about to lose her job and her marriage because of "flirting." It's not funny.


----------



## Enigma32

TexasMom1216 said:


> OK, I understand. That makes sense. I don't think that's fair; I think all inappropriate behavior, regardless of the source, should be removed from the professional environment. Forcing you to touch her boobs is no different than you forcing her to touch you somewhere personal, it's assault. It's all wrong.


Which brings me to part of my point, men don't seem to care much when it happens. I used to work with a girl that would wear skirts and flash me her vagina in the office. She did it so much that management knew about it but did nothing. They did try to use me to get her fired for unrelated reasons though. The only thing management told her about flashing me was that her skirts were inappropriate for the office. She made a stink about the dress code and being discriminated against so they dropped even that.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> Just remembered another one... I'll post some of them when they come to mind.
> 
> When I was a junior/senior in high school I worked as a hostess at a very upscale restaurant in the best hotel in town. The hotel manager was a young 30ish mafioso type. Very good looking and very much had that mafioso "I'm the big guy" attitude. Very often he would sit in the restaurant staring at me. Sometimes he would say a few things. But mostly staring. Then he started making the moves. One of his moves was to sit there with his hand on his ****. Since he was at a table covered in a tablecloth, I was the only one in the restaurant who could see this, and he's just smile at me. I just ignored him. One night I was walking by his table, and he said something like "I saw you looking at this." and he grabbed his crotch. I just looked at him like he was nuts and kept walking.
> 
> My brother who is a year younger than me worked banquet at the same hotel. The manager had all the young guys as buddies. He'd have parties in the manager's suit, give all the guys (many of them high school students) as much booze as they wanted... drink at the party and then let them take bottles home. The guys loved my mafioso admirer (the gross blah).


Boy, that guy was full of himself. I guess if you have a dining room for people you can't very well point and laugh loudly and tell everyone to look at his ****.


----------



## Enigma32

TexasMom1216 said:


> We're kind of having a serious talk here.
> 
> Flirting doesn't belong in the workplace. Ever. It's unprofessional and irresponsible. It causes problems for everyone, not just the people flirting. Supervisors and co-workers also have to deal with it. On another thread a woman is about to lose her job and her marriage because of "flirting." It's not funny.


See what I mean? When it happened to him, it WAS funny to him. Men don't often get upset about this stuff, we just don't. Heck, your reason for being upset is because an unrelated woman is having problems with this stuff, not even upset about @RandomDude situation.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> I’m in entertainment and the stories I have seen in 25 years are completely outrageous and over the top. Fortunately some of these guys got fired and that was before #metoo. I go by Mike Pence rules now. My last business trip my wife came with me so I stayed out of all the chicanery going on after the trade shows. I always say no to all of that anyway and my crew are all married guys of “good character” although we all party just not with women.


I think more married men fool around at those trade shows than anywhere else because there are always people providing prostitutes for clients at them. I think it's just too easy. You're out of town, someone else is paying for it, and you're not likely to get caught.


----------



## RandomDude

Enigma32 said:


> Some of them over the years have been! This last one was a drunk old lady though. She asked me to hand her something and when I did, she pulled my hand into her chest and held it there a moment. Pretended it was an accident. I know she's full of crap because she went out of her way to see me several times for no reason.


Lol I had a client just like that last month actually, didn't get me to touch her boobs though, but acted similar, stalked me too, and I knew what she was after, but she wasn't attractive so... harassment! Harassment!  

But as a bloke, we just take it in stride, I agree.


----------



## TexasMom1216

Enigma32 said:


> See what I mean? When it happened to him, it WAS funny to him. Men don't often get upset about this stuff, we just don't. Heck, your reason for being upset is because an unrelated woman is having problems with this stuff, not even upset about @RandomDude situation.


So is your point that women need to just get over it?


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think more ALL married men fool around at those trade shows than anywhere else because there are always people providing prostitutes for clients at them. I think it's just too easy. You're out of town, someone else is paying for it, and you're not likely to get caught.


FIFY 😉


----------



## Enigma32

TexasMom1216 said:


> So is your point that women need to just get over it?


Nope. I don't much care what other people do with their lives. Just giving the other perspective is all. Most men do kinda just laugh about it and let it go.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

heartsbeating said:


> Anyway, back more on topic, aside from a few questionable quips back in the day, I've only dealt with one creep (for the peanut gallery not just my perception, his actions) of my own accord.
> 
> Beyond that, the only time I've gone to a manager about someone was within the last couple of years. And not from the mindset of sexual harassment. More that my spidey senses were sparked as to whether this guy (a vendor) was going to lack boundaries / keep turning up at the workplace to see me when it wasn't needed. During a work phone call, despite explaining our processes, he insisted that he drop by with the paperwork. He asked when I'd be about. (I acknowledge that could be interpreted in an innocent way). I requested that he leave the paperwork with our receptionist as I couldn't confirm when I'd be free. He was insistent that he wanted to meet. My tail bristled at the insistence. I reasserted the receptionist could help if I wasn't around. I told receptionist to expect him and what was needed. He asked for me but the receptionist helped instead. The following week, he unexpectedly dropped by and asked to see me. This time the receptionist didn't gate-keep. As I walked towards him, he boldly said, 'Ahh... _here's_ the good looking one. I knew you would be. It was worth the visit.' I kept the dialogue professional. Colleagues heard with mixed reactions. Maybe he thought he was being charming, yet cutting to the chase here, and dealing with him on the phone again, I had concern that he'd keep visiting. Like I said, there was no reason to and without dramatizing something that need not be dramatic, I was just on alert. While I did feel a bit weird doing so, I explained to my manager who understood and with both of us having a balanced perspective about it. Sure enough, he unnecessarily came by the office again and asked for me. I was in a meeting or out or something, and my manager was aware that he was there and went to see him instead, explained our processes to him again (and which meant that visiting the office was not part of that). Manager called me in after and essentially also felt he could be a problem and it had been relayed to the team that his contact with me was to be limited. I personally chalk that scenario up to spidey senses. And focused on using another vendor instead.


Yeah, he sounded stalkery. It was probably flirtatious but it also could be part of whoever he's working for aggressive sales style. I was only in sales briefly, but the regional manager told me I should know where the buyer or Walmart was at all times and what he was doing. He lived in Amarillo. I lived in Dallas. Cell phones weren't a thing yet. And there's no way the guy would have put up with that. So could have been over the top Old fashioned sales obnoxiousness. But I bet he already kind of knew who you were and what you looked at before he showed up there. I'm glad you had support on that because that's creepy. 

I had a salesman once who I did like who was married with kids and he had a way about him about doing things for me or giving me things that I thought he was about to give me a Mercedes he had bought. He made this huge deal of going for a ride in it. He insisted I drive it. He did not seem like that type of guy and he wasn't, but he went so far that I started getting real jittery about it. 

He had rented me a car before but that was for a business trip in LA. And he put me up in a nice place but I knew he wasn't up to anything on that trip because he brought his daughter. 

I guess he was just that excited about his Mercedes.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

RandomDude said:


> Would flirting with me and touching me nonstop at work for 2 months despite me showing no signals back, playing dumb and excusing myself be considered sexual harassment?
> 
> Not for me! But I guess it's because she was attractive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Means she likes them tight


It could have been creeped you out. I had a friend who was very touchy-feely and she was a sweet as pie, but she had a habit of touching guys on the stomach. She was pretty short. It was just a weird two intimate gesture. But she really didn't mean anything by it because I knew her quite well but I think a lot of guys got the wrong idea and it was her fault.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

RandomDude said:


> His example IS a tad full on, but what is workplace flirting vs workplace harassment?
> 
> I was technically harassed for 2 months but I ended up crushing on her in the end so


She probably knew you liked it. But it still seems over the top and unprofessional to me.


----------



## RandomDude

DownByTheRiver said:


> *It could have been creeped you out.* I had a friend who was very touchy-feely and she was a sweet as pie, but she had a habit of touching guys on the stomach*.* She was pretty short. It was just a weird two intimate gesture. But she really didn't mean anything by it because I knew her quite well but I think a lot of guys got the wrong idea and it was her fault.


Of course it could have, but there was a difference, answer is in the video! 



DownByTheRiver said:


> She probably knew you liked it. But it still seems over the top and unprofessional to me.


I doubt it for the first 2 months, I was always throwing cold water on her, but she was very persistent. I didn't start flirting back until she whispered darling.

Very over the top and unprofessional yes, I don't know what angle she was playing at because she already got my business. It's probably just a fling but I remember it fondly, not as harassment, because well... she was attractive!  Probably the most raw sexual attraction (but nothing else) I had for a long time too.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Enigma32 said:


> Some of them over the years have been! This last one was a drunk old lady though. She asked me to hand her something and when I did, she pulled my hand into her chest and held it there a moment. Pretended it was an accident. I know she's full of crap because she went out of her way to see me several times for no reason.


Eww.


----------



## heartsbeating

Enigma32 said:


> Nope. I don't much care what other people do with their lives. Just giving the other perspective is all. Most men do kinda just laugh about it and let it go.


Just from my own minor and thankfully uneventful anecdotal story relayed before, when I shared with my husband about it, his response with me was from protective husband mode yet with a balanced view too. For kicks and giggles, I asked him how he'd feel if a woman showed up to his work and told him that he was good-looking and it was worth the visit, and he laughed and said, 'That'd be great!' Jokes aside though, for me personally, it was more the lack of boundaries being demonstrated and which had me feeling cautious (and in terms of safety). For me, it was a deciphering of social cues as to whether there was a potential problem/risk that could arise. Someone else, another woman, may have felt and handled it differently. When the spidey senses tingle though, I take notice.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Enigma32 said:


> Which brings me to part of my point, men don't seem to care much when it happens. I used to work with a girl that would wear skirts and flash me her vagina in the office. She did it so much that management knew about it but did nothing. They did try to use me to get her fired for unrelated reasons though. The only thing management told her about flashing me was that her skirts were inappropriate for the office. She made a stink about the dress code and being discriminated against so they dropped even that.


Sexually harassed women very often have their harasser trying to corner them some way for sex, leverage sex some way. But sometimes like those guys at the early record store so gross they thought they were funny and were just disrespecting the women at work, which undermines them.

If you care about your job, you really should care not to just put up with all that even if it personally is okay with you, because it sets the tone for the next guy or woman, who may care very much. And also it's a very unresponsible unprofessional employee who pulls that stuff and management should want to weed those out.


----------



## heartsbeating

DownByTheRiver said:


> But I bet he already kind of knew who you were and what you looked at before he showed up there. I'm glad you had support on that because that's creepy.


He wasn't in sales (in that sense) and was owner/operator. Without going into detail, he wouldn't have had knowledge about me beforehand including what I look like. On the surface, even if it was just flirtatious-thought-he-was-being-charming and nothing more, it was good to have the support. Taken seriously enough, yet not so seriously that team members didn't have fun with it for about a day.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Enigma32 said:


> See what I mean? When it happened to him, it WAS funny to him. Men don't often get upset about this stuff, we just don't. Heck, your reason for being upset is because an unrelated woman is having problems with this stuff, not even upset about @RandomDude situation.


I have seen a guy get upset about being sexually harassed at his work. He was a server at my favorite restaurant. I took a woman there who was my age about 50 at the time, and she was a nice enough lady but she had been a stripper at one time when she was young and some things never change. She did that cliche thing about dessert and put him on the spot. 

I never brought her there again, and I apologize profusely to him because he was very uncomfortable, and I tipped him big from then until he went to law school. I don't like to see anyone uncomfortable. Trust me these guys they're in service jobs like that get real sick of being hit on by old ladies.


----------



## RandomDude

DownByTheRiver said:


> If you care about your job, you really should care not to just put up with all that even if it personally is okay with you, because it sets the tone for the next guy or woman, who may care very much. And also it's a very unresponsible unprofessional employee who pulls that stuff and management should want to weed those out.


And when management is caught flirting?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

heartsbeating said:


> He wasn't in sales (in that sense) and was owner/operator. Without going into detail, he wouldn't have had knowledge about me beforehand including what I look like.


So he was one of those aggressive salesmen. If you're sure no one tipped him off that you were attractive. Obnoxious either way.


----------



## RandomDude

DownByTheRiver said:


> I have seen a guy get upset about being sexually harassed at his work. He was a server at my favorite restaurant. I took a woman there who was my age about 50 at the time, and she was a nice enough lady but she had been a stripper at one time when she was young and some things never change. She did that cliche thing about dessert and put him on the spot.
> 
> I never brought her there again, and I apologize profusely to him because he was very uncomfortable, and I tipped him big from then until he went to law school. I don't like to see anyone uncomfortable. Trust me these guys they're in service jobs like that get real sick of being hit on by old ladies.


Those in the front line of the service industry deal with far more than sexual harassment.


----------



## heartsbeating

DownByTheRiver said:


> So he was one of those aggressive salesmen. If you're sure no one tipped him off that you were attractive. Obnoxious either way.


Absolutely sure.


----------



## EleGirl

Enigma32 said:


> Men get sexually harassed too, but no one seems to care, including the men. I'm not even a good looking guy and I've been sexually harassed at every job I worked for a significant amount of time, including my current one. Maybe men are more likely to be believed in this situations, I don't know, but I do know that no one seems to care either way. If I tried to play like I was some sort of victim over this stuff, people would laugh.


If the men don't care, it's not sexual harassment. Some women don't care either. I've worked in places were sexualized behavior and teasing seemed to be part of the culture. I was the odd one out.

There have been some pretty big case in recent years of men suing when their female boss or co-worker crossed the line. Here's just a few....

Men account for nearly 1 in 5 complaints of workplace sexual harassment with the EEOC - The Washington Post 

University of Rochester and plaintiffs settle sexual harassment lawsuit for $9.4 million | Science | AAAS 

2 men sue NSU football program for alleged sexual assault | 13newsnow.com 

1993 Man Wins $1 Million Sex Harassment Suit - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


----------



## Busy Washing My Hair

In my early 20s I had an office directly across from a very high ranking, longtime male employee. He often made comments about my breasts. My breasts are definitely not small but I did not walk around the office in low cut tops flaunting my cleavage. If I was standing in the doorway to his office when talking to him or trying to ask him a question he’d blatantly stare right at my chest and say things like “I’m sorry, what was that? I was really distracted by those things.” He knew very well what I had said to him but he thought it was quite funny. I remember being in his office once and he told me I should button my top all the way up or he might lose control. He would also make comments to me about his “boner” from across the hall (as in he was saying it across the hall where other people, including the owner of the company could hear). Nobody ever did anything about it. Everyone joked that he had a sexual harassment suit coming but he claimed he knew too much about the skeletons in everyone’s closet for anyone to do anything about him. I didn’t do anything about it. I kept my office door closed as often as possible. I was young and stupid and scared to say anything at the time.


----------



## EleGirl

Enigma32 said:


> You said that men have the privilege of being believed more often, which may be possible for all I know. You said that if you speak up about sexual harassment that you will face a negative stigma, maybe true again. I'm just giving the male perspective. Yeah, maybe we are believed as men, but no one is gonna do anything about it. A settlement? Not likely. When I am sexually harassed, people take it as a joke....myself included. Hell, I had a woman basically force me to touch her boobs just yesterday just because I wasn't friendly enough. People I've told believe the story, but they laugh. So did I. That's the difference.


If all this going on in a situation where you could be fired if you don't follow through and let the person 'harassing' you have their way? This is a large part of if something is sexual harassment at work or not.

My take on it is that if someone does something you're not ok with, you tell them to stop. If they don't stop, now it's a problem. (This is as long as it's not actual rape/assault)


----------



## Enigma32

EleGirl said:


> If the men don't care, it's not sexual harassment. Some women don't care either. I've worked in places were sexualized behavior and teasing seemed to be part of the culture. I was the odd one out.
> 
> There have been some pretty big case in recent years of men suing when their female boss or co-worker crossed the line. Here's just a few....
> 
> Men account for nearly 1 in 5 complaints of workplace sexual harassment with the EEOC - The Washington Post
> 
> University of Rochester and plaintiffs settle sexual harassment lawsuit for $9.4 million | Science | AAAS
> 
> 2 men sue NSU football program for alleged sexual assault | 13newsnow.com
> 
> 1993 Man Wins $1 Million Sex Harassment Suit - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


If men don't even quite count for 20% of workplace harassment claims, I think that shows about how little most men care. And yeah, you're right I guess, it's up to the person being harassed if it's actually harassment. Which I guess makes it a bit of a complicated situation.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> If the men don't care, it's not sexual harassment. Some women don't care either. I've worked in places were sexualized behavior and teasing seemed to be part of the culture. I was the odd one out.
> 
> There have been some pretty big case in recent years of men suing when their female boss or co-worker crossed the line. Here's just a few....
> 
> Men account for nearly 1 in 5 complaints of workplace sexual harassment with the EEOC - The Washington Post
> 
> University of Rochester and plaintiffs settle sexual harassment lawsuit for $9.4 million | Science | AAAS
> 
> 2 men sue NSU football program for alleged sexual assault | 13newsnow.com
> 
> 1993 Man Wins $1 Million Sex Harassment Suit - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


Workplace relationships happen, back when I was active in operations management people break up too, which caused issues with cohesion. 

I rostered them together for sh-ts and giggles to help them learn how to work together.


----------



## RandomDude

Busy Washing My Hair said:


> In my early 20s I had an office directly across from a very high ranking, longtime male employee. He often made comments about my breasts. My breasts are definitely not small but I did not walk around the office in low cut tops flaunting my cleavage. If I was standing in the doorway to his office when talking to him or trying to ask him a question he’d blatantly stare right at my chest and say things like “I’m sorry, what was that? I was really distracted by those things.” He knew very well what I had said to him but he thought it was quite funny. I remember being in his office once and he told me I should button my top all the way up or he might lose control. He would also make comments to me about his “boner” from across the hall (as in he was saying it across the hall where other people, including the owner of the company could hear). Nobody ever did anything about it. Everyone joked that he had a sexual harassment suit coming but he claimed he knew too much about the skeletons in everyone’s closet for anyone to do anything about him. I didn’t do anything about it. I kept my office door closed as often as possible. I was young and stupid and scared to say anything at the time.


Damn 

Sadly, this is a common occurence, definitely not in my workplace however. 
You also can not trust HR in most places, it's there to protect the company, not the employees.


----------



## gold5932

Another one. I was young and a receptionist at large company. I kept getting obscene phone calls at exactly 8:05 every morning. I called the cops they put a trace on and it was another employee at my company. 

i got sexually harassed at every job I had until I became a boss at 32. Then it was just insults and threats. One employee threatened my personal safety and I fired every single guy in that department. We called it Black Tuesday.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

gold5932 said:


> Another one. I was young and a receptionist at large company. I kept getting obscene phone calls at exactly 8:05 every morning. I called the cops they put a trace on and it was another employee at my company.
> 
> i got sexually harassed at every job I had until I became a boss at 32. Then it was just insults and threats. One employee threatened my personal safety and I fired every single guy in that department. We called it Black Tuesday.


We got obscene phone calls at that big record store too, and we assumed he was targeting that really good looking girl, but he was actually stalking me and it turned into a bad thing..


----------



## gold5932

DownByTheRiver said:


> We got obscene phone calls at that big record store too, and we assumed he was targeting that really good looking girl, but he was actually stalking me and it turned into a bad thing..


Dang I’m sorry.


----------



## Busy Washing My Hair

RandomDude said:


> Damn
> 
> Sadly, this is a common occurence, definitely not in my workplace however.
> You also can not trust HR in most places, it's there to protect the company, not the employees.


There wasn’t even a legit HR department at this particular company. They had one person who supposedly managed HR duties but she had no backbone and deferred to the owners on everything. The owners were definitely a boys club. The dirty perve from across the hall eventually stopped after being physically threatened by my husband.

The very top dog was a real old dirty man! He touched women inappropriately, cornered them, pushed them up against walls. Luckily by the time I was employed he was old and feeble enough that he could no longer do those things. Well, the touching was something he still tried to do, but he moved slow enough that you could avoid it. He would intentionally drop his pants from time to time when walking down the hall and pretend that it was an accident. Everyone knew he was having affairs and sleeping with prostitutes basically until the day he died, but he pretended to be so devoted to his wife. Yuck.

This was my first real full time job out of college. I’ve blocked most of it out until now!


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Busy Washing My Hair said:


> There wasn’t even a legit HR department at this particular company. They had one person who supposedly managed HR duties but she had no backbone and deferred to the owners on everything. The owners were definitely a boys club. The dirty perve from across the hall eventually stopped after being physically threatened by my husband.
> 
> The very top dog was a real old dirty man! He touched women inappropriately, cornered them, pushed them up against walls. Luckily by the time I was employed he was old and feeble enough that he could no longer do those things. Well, the touching was something he still tried to do, but he moved slow enough that you could avoid it. He would intentionally drop his pants from time to time when walking down the hall and pretend that it was an accident. Everyone knew he was having affairs and sleeping with prostitutes basically until the day he died, but he pretended to be so devoted to his wife. Yuck.
> 
> This was my first real full time job out of college. I’ve blocked most of it out until now!


I wonder if these jerks have any idea what kind of legacy they left.


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> His example IS a tad full on, but what is workplace flirting vs workplace harassment?
> 
> I was technically harassed for 2 months but I ended up crushing on her in the end so


If you tell the person flirting with you to stop, you're not interested, etc. it becomes harassment.


----------



## Busy Washing My Hair

DownByTheRiver said:


> I wonder if these jerks have any idea what kind of legacy they left.


Knowing them, they’re probably proud of it. They raised a generation of sons and grandsons that behave in much the same way.


----------



## RandomDude

Busy Washing My Hair said:


> There wasn’t even a legit HR department at this particular company. They had one person who supposedly managed HR duties but she had no backbone and deferred to the owners on everything.


That's her job I'm afraid. Sadly that's how it goes.



> The owners were definitely a boys club. The dirty perve from across the hall eventually stopped after being physically threatened by my husband.
> 
> The very top dog was a real old dirty man! He touched women inappropriately, cornered them, pushed them up against walls. Luckily by the time I was employed he was old and feeble enough that he could no longer do those things. Well, the touching was something he still tried to do, but he moved slow enough that you could avoid it. He would intentionally drop his pants from time to time when walking down the hall and pretend that it was an accident. Everyone knew he was having affairs and sleeping with prostitutes basically until the day he died, but he pretended to be so devoted to his wife. Yuck.
> 
> This was my first real full time job out of college. I’ve blocked most of it out until now!


Seems to be the culture there. I seem to get the impression your American workplaces are a lot worse than the ones where I live. Perhaps you need to copy our laws.









Sexual harassment


Sexual harassment can impact mental health, lower self-esteem and cause fear, depression and stress. It's common in the workplace - and illegal.




www.healthdirect.gov.au




Sadly it's not something you can fix when you are entry level / replaceable.
Much of my management is gay / women, and of course with one sole shareholder who prefers flat management and team cohesion rather than a hierarchical organisational structure.

So it's a different culture, look for those.


----------



## TexasMom1216

RandomDude said:


> That's her job I'm afraid. Sadly that's how it goes.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to be the culture there. I seem to get the impression your American workplaces are a lot worse than the ones where I live. Perhaps you need to copy our laws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sexual harassment
> 
> 
> Sexual harassment can impact mental health, lower self-esteem and cause fear, depression and stress. It's common in the workplace - and illegal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthdirect.gov.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly it's not something you can fix when you are entry level / replaceable.
> Much of my management is gay / women, and of course with one sole shareholder who prefers flat management and team cohesion rather than a hierarchical organisational structure.
> 
> So it's a different culture, look for those.


Says the guy who just finished slobbering after a client for months.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

On a lighter note, when I first started working at the headquarters job, I was put in the office with one of the supervisors. He's the one that later offered to buy a rent house but that was a lot later.

So I would be in there trying to work and he would be reading fishing magazines to me. Aloud. 

It got ridiculous. So I was actually not working with him but with the people across the hall one of whom was my immediate supervisor and also someone I had dated before I ever worked there for a little while. So I didn't really want to be in the office with him just because of it could get complicated. But he became aware of the situation in the other office and one day he just came in and picked up my desk and took it into his office. 

I'm pretty sure fishing guy was offended. But I couldn't get any work done in there and I was having to run back and forth a lot. I was only supposed to be there about 3 weeks to set up a system for them and then I was supposed to have my choice of retail stores. But then my immediate supervisor decided to keep me. 

It was one of those fork in the road things that I always wonder if I would have been better off just going back into retail because I always loved retail. It kept me in touch with people more. But then the headquarters job was a more prestigious job with better opportunity for the future. Guess I'll never know.


----------



## RandomDude

TexasMom1216 said:


> Says the guy who just finished slobbering after a client for months.


She slobbered after me for 2 months before I even dared to flirt back so


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> If you tell the person flirting with you to stop, you're not interested, etc. it becomes harassment.


Well, she didn't stop... I dunno, she risked a lot to be honest the way she was with me. I didn't risk much by comparison. Kinda why I still look back and wonder what if...


----------



## EleGirl

DownByTheRiver said:


> We got obscene phone calls at that big record store too, and we assumed he was targeting that really good looking girl, but he was actually stalking me and it turned into a bad thing..


When I taught computer science courses at a university, I kept getting obscene phone calls. It was more than one guy. I really think it was some of my students. It stopped after I left that position.


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> Well, she didn't stop... I dunno, she risked a lot to be honest the way she was with me. I didn't risk much by comparison. Kinda why I still look back and wonder what if...


All is well that ends well, right?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> When I taught computer science courses at a university, I kept getting obscene phone calls. It was more than one guy. I really think it was some of my students. It stopped after I left that position.


It was probably every male student in that class!


----------



## DownByTheRiver

RandomDude said:


> Well, she didn't stop... I dunno, she risked a lot to be honest the way she was with me. I didn't risk much by comparison. Kinda why I still look back and wonder what if...


You didn't tell her to stop though. And you were titillated by the whole thing so that's not sexual harassment. And that already has its own thread.


----------



## TexasMom1216

RandomDude said:


> She slobbered after me for 2 months before I even dared to flirt back so


Your laws didn’t stop either of you so not super sure they’re better than ours. Ours are actually pretty iron clad and more often than not favor the accuser in ways that aren’t fair. The laws aren’t the issue.


----------



## RandomDude

DownByTheRiver said:


> You didn't tell her to stop though. And you were titillated by the whole thing so that's not sexual harassment. And that already has its own thread.


I threw cold water! I can't make it too awkward, we were still working together lol
Ok ok back on topic 



EleGirl said:


> All is well that ends well, right?


----------



## RandomDude

TexasMom1216 said:


> Your laws didn’t stop either of you so not super sure they’re better than ours.


I wasn't exactly in a position where I could be considered powerless to stop her lol - unless you count the mental/sexual turmoil going on in my heads 



> Ours are actually pretty iron clad and more often than not favor the accuser in ways that aren’t fair. The laws aren’t the issue.


Perhaps, it's just that I hear all this stories of REAL harassment and it's just rare from what I've seen over here. More common is people simply hook up at work.


----------



## TexasMom1216

RandomDude said:


> I wasn't exactly in a position where I could be considered powerless to stop her lol - unless you count the mental/sexual turmoil going on in my heads
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, it's just that I hear all this stories of REAL harassment and it's just rare from what I've seen over here. More common is people simply hook up at work.


Most of these stories are from a while ago. I think my 13 year old one is one of the most recent. It WAS widespread. It’s much less common right now. That’s why the stories are so shocking, because we thought we’d fixed this. We actually discourage people from “hooking up at work,” that can get you both fired.


----------



## RandomDude

TexasMom1216 said:


> Most of these stories are from a while ago. I think my 13 year old one is one of the most recent. It WAS widespread. It’s much less common right now. That’s why the stories are so shocking, because we thought we’d fixed this.


I have dealt with complaints and fired staff over harassment, but it's over the course of so many years and it's not very often. A lot of the times there's no proof so you simply keep them at their stations, but one manager did push the established boundary and he thought I wouldn't take the time to look through CCTV myself? Idiot. Turned out he was pocketing cash too from the safe, the fking c----



> We actually discourage people from “hooking up at work,” that can get you both fired.


And here I am, someone who used to roster lovebirds together after they break up


----------



## EleGirl

I'm going to share some about a guy I used to work for. This was after I left that job where the men had a peep hole into the women's bathroom. I've had an interest from an early age in silver & gold smithing, stone cutting, jewelry making, etc. I got a job with a man who sold jewelry. He was in his late 50's. He owned several restaurants too. He had a workshop in the back rooms of one of his restaurants. I worked for him for about 5 years. He'd buy the silver, gold, stones, etc. I'd turn it all into jewelry that he would sell all over the Western US. He also bought jewelry from other independent jewelers and sold that too. When he was in town, he would often spend a lot of time with me in the shop working. We talked a lot while we worked. And he got to feel very comfortable around me. It was great... until... he apparently really opened up to me. He told me about how he loved running the restaurants. Why? Because he would hire single mothers, women whose husbands had died, walked out on them, etc. He would strike up close relationships with these women. Then he'd make his move. He let them know that if they wanted to keep their jobs, they had to have an affair with him... basically sex when he wanted it. He told me that it was great because these women were trapped. He knew he was being predatory and thought it was great. There were no other jobs in the area. The women were stuck. He thought this was great. I don't know why he opened up to me like that, but it was just weird. He never put any pressure on me for sex or anything else. If anyone else had told me he did this in the past I would not have believed them 'cause he just seemed like a very nice, sweet, kind older man.

I knew his wife and kids very well. We all hung out together. I stopped working with him because I was freaked out by what he told me. And it was just too uncomfortable to be around his wife after that. Poor woman.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> I'm going to share some about a guy I used to work for. This was after I left that job where they men had a peep hole into the women's bathroom. I've had an interest from an early age in silver & gold smithing, stone cutting, jewelry making, etc. I got a job with a man who sold jewelry. He was in his late 50's. He owned several restaurants too. He has a workshop in the back rooms of one of his restaurants. I worked for him for about 5 years. He'd buy the silver, gold, stones, etc. I'd turn it all into jewelry that he would sell all over the Western US. He also bought jewelry from other independent jewelers and sell that too. When he was in town, he would often spend a lot of time with me in the shop working. We talked a lot while we worked. And he got to feel very comfortable around me. It was great... until... he apparently really opened up to me. He told me about how he loved running the restaurants. Why? Because he would hire single mothers, women whose husbands had died, walked out on them, etc. He would strike up close relationships with these women. Then he'd make his move. He let them know that if they wanted to keep their jobs, they had to have an affair with him... basically sex when he wanted it. He told me that it was great because these women were trapped. He knew he was being predatory and thought it was great. There were no other jobs in the area. The women were stuck. He thought this was great. I don't know why he opened up to me like that, but it was just weird. He never put any pressure on me for sex or anything else. If anyone else had told me he did this in the past I would not have believed them 'cause he just seemed like a very nice, sweet, kind older man.
> 
> I knew his wife and kids very well. We all hung out together. I stopped working with him because I was freaked out by what he told me. And it was just too uncomfortable to be around his wife after that. Poor woman.


 WTF

This is a god damn pattern with abuse. Domestic violence too, always, dependence dependence dependence 
This is why we used to have dowry traditions to prevent this sort of crap.


----------



## DudeInProgress

*Your Workplace Sexual Harassment Experiences*

There’s a lot more to it than most people think, if you want to do it right anyway.
Usually when I want to sexually harass someone at work, the first thing is… oh, you meant… never mind…


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> WTF
> 
> This is a god damn pattern with abuse. Domestic violence too, always, dependence dependence dependence
> This is why we used to have dowry traditions to prevent this sort of crap.


How does the dowry tradition help prevent this?


----------



## Enigma32

Another likely unwelcome perspective.

Over the years, I've had a ton of ladies at the workplace try and come on to me because they presume certain things about my position here, and likely the size of my bank account. I work for a family business and while some members of my family are rather well off as business owners, I really just work here. I am doing a bit better here than your regular employee, but most of that is due to longevity with the company and added responsibilities more than it is because of familial connections. Even so, once it gets around that I am who I am here, a few of the new girls always come sniffing around looking for some workplace advantages. 

While I definitely disapprove of the predatory nature some of these supervisors show when they corner and make demands out of some ladies, I really think some of them do so because it's an arrangement some people are more than happy to participate in. Either way, it's a shady practice no one should participate in.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> How does the dowry tradition help prevent this?


Wasn't it to help widows / divorcees not be financially desperate?


----------



## RandomDude

Enigma32 said:


> Another likely unwelcome perspective.
> 
> Over the years, I've had a ton of ladies at the workplace try and come on to me because they presume certain things about my position here, and likely the size of my bank account. I work for a family business and while some members of my family are rather well off as business owners, I really just work here. I am doing a bit better here than your regular employee, but most of that is due to longevity with the company and added responsibilities more than it is because of familial connections. Even so, once it gets around that I am who I am here, a few of the new girls always come sniffing around looking for some workplace advantages.
> 
> While I definitely disapprove of the predatory nature some of these supervisors show when they corner and make demands out of some ladies, I really think some of them do so because it's an arrangement some people are more than happy to participate in. Either way, it's a shady practice no one should participate in.


Had a chef before who told me he met his wife at work, who was a head chef at the time. He always joked that he slept his way to the top


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> Wasn't it to help widows / divorcees not be financially desperate?


Here's what is it.... 

_"The dowry, the money, goods, or estate that a woman brings to her husband or his family in marriage. Most common in cultures that are strongly patrilineal and that expect women to reside with or near their husband’s family (patrilocality), dowries have a long history in Europe, South Asia, Africa, and other parts of the world._​​_One of the basic functions of a dowry has been to serve as a form of protection for the wife against the very real possibility of ill treatment by her husband and his family. A dowry used in this way is actually a conditional gift that is supposed to be restored to the wife or her family if the husband divorces, abuses, or commits other grave offenses against her. Land and precious metals have often been used in this form of dowry and are frequently inalienable by the husband, though he might otherwise use and profit from them during the marriage."_​
The problem comes when the husband and/or his family refuses to acknowledge the abuse, etc. and refuses to return the dowry.

More here.
dowry | Definition, Examples, & Facts | Britannica


----------



## heartsbeating

As for flirtation, second time that I had spoken with a provider over the phone, I asked if he'd be so kind to.... [he interrupted this] and he said 'Arrange a limo to pick you up for a dinner date? Absolutely!' I replied, 'I don't need all that fuss, just a confirmation email of the order would be great.' He laughed and made another comment. At that point, I told him I was married and wanting to get home to have dinner with my husband. It was end of day, I was trying to get this thing finalized. Confirmation instantly received. Shortly after, he mentioned how I work so hard and expressed that if things didn't work out with my husband, to let him know as his offer stood to take me out to a nice restaurant. I didn't discuss anything of a personal nature with him. I wasn't flattered and/or encouraging of such comments. I told him to keep it professional. He'd email me with some kind of term of endearment. And was only that way with me; not my colleagues. Eh, I just brushed it off, and kept professional boundaries. We never met in person. On occasion, my colleagues would cheekily ask if I could arrange what was needed through him on their behalf, as he'd demonstrated that if I asked, it'd get done easily and quickly. However, I wasn't willing to do the extra work and have extra contact with him, and so I told them no and they'd need to figure it out. There would sometimes be conflict between him and another colleague though, and escalated to him requesting to only deal with me. That request was denied as it wasn't sustainable or professional. Meanwhile, my colleagues made fun of me, 'Your boyfriend just called for you..' Yeah, yeah, whatever.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> Here's what is it....
> 
> _"The dowry, the money, goods, or estate that a woman brings to her husband or his family in marriage. Most common in cultures that are strongly patrilineal and that expect women to reside with or near their husband’s family (patrilocality), dowries have a long history in Europe, South Asia, Africa, and other parts of the world._​​_One of the basic functions of a dowry has been to serve as a form of protection for the wife against the very real possibility of ill treatment by her husband and his family. A dowry used in this way is actually a conditional gift that is supposed to be restored to the wife or her family if the husband divorces, abuses, or commits other grave offenses against her. Land and precious metals have often been used in this form of dowry and are frequently inalienable by the husband, though he might otherwise use and profit from them during the marriage."_​
> The problem comes when the husband and/or his family refuses to acknowledge the abuse, etc. and refuses to return the dowry.
> 
> More here.
> dowry | Definition, Examples, & Facts | Britannica


I am very confused. All this time I thought it was what the groom paid to the brides' family or father in case of death / no longer able to provide for her.


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> I am very confused. All this time I thought it was what the groom paid to the brides' family or father in case of death / no longer able to provide for her.


With the dowery going from the bride's father to the groom and/or his family, she should get some of it if the groom dies, is abusive, etc. But that only works if the groom's family is honorable.

You might be mixing it up with the "bride price" or "bride-dowery".

*"*_Bride price, bride-dowry (Mahr in Islam), bride-wealth, or bride token, is money, property, or other form of wealth paid by a groom or his family to the woman or the family of the woman he will be married to or is just about to marry. Bride dowry is equivalent to dowry paid to the groom in some cultures, or used by the bride to help establish the new household, and dower, which is property settled on the bride herself by the groom at the time of marriage. Some cultures may practice both simultaneously. Many cultures practiced bride dowry prior to existing records.

The tradition of giving bride dowry is practiced in many Asian countries, the Middle East, parts of Africa and in some Pacific Island societies, notably those in Melanesia. The amount changing hands may range from a token to continue the traditional ritual, to many thousands of US dollars in some marriages in Thailand, and as much as a $100,000 in exceptionally large bride dowry in parts of Papua New Guinea where bride dowry is customary."_
_Bride price - Wikipedia_

In Islam, the groom gives the bride what's often called the 'bride gift". I've heard that $45,000 is basic for those who have some assets. In marriage the husband is only responsible to pride her with a home, food, necessities, and take financial care of the children. She has to use her own money for anything else she wants. The woman gets to keep the bride gift and her inheritance from her family. If her husband dies, she gets about 1/8 of his assets. His parents get a big hunk, and the rest goes to the children. If she causes problems, like cheats she has to return the bride gift to him. If he screws up... she has what she has. While most of my family is not Muslim, when there is a marriage to a Muslim this negotiation is taken seriously.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> With the dowery going from the bride's father to the groom and/or his family, she should get some of it if the groom dies, is abusive, etc. But that only works if the groom's family is honorable.
> 
> You might be mixing it up with the "bride price" or "bride-dowery".
> 
> *"*_Bride price, bride-dowry (Mahr in Islam), bride-wealth, or bride token, is money, property, or other form of wealth paid by a groom or his family to the woman or the family of the woman he will be married to or is just about to marry. Bride dowry is equivalent to dowry paid to the groom in some cultures, or used by the bride to help establish the new household, and dower, which is property settled on the bride herself by the groom at the time of marriage. Some cultures may practice both simultaneously. Many cultures practiced bride dowry prior to existing records.
> 
> The tradition of giving bride dowry is practiced in many Asian countries, the Middle East, parts of Africa and in some Pacific Island societies, notably those in Melanesia. The amount changing hands may range from a token to continue the traditional ritual, to many thousands of US dollars in some marriages in Thailand, and as much as a $100,000 in exceptionally large bride dowry in parts of Papua New Guinea where bride dowry is customary."_
> _Bride price - Wikipedia_
> 
> In Islam, the groom gives the bride what's often called the 'bride gift". I've heard that $45,000 is basic for those who have some assets. In marriage the husband is only responsible to pride her with a home, food, necessities, and take financial care of the children. She has to use her own money for anything else she wants. The woman gets to keep the bride gift and her inheritance from her family. If her husband dies, she gets about 1/8 of his assets. His parents get a big hunk, and the rest goes to the children. If she causes problems, like cheats she has to return the bride gift to him. If he screws up... she has what she has. While most of my family is not Muslim, when there is a marriage to a Muslim this negotiation is taken seriously.


Well, thats a fail 🤦‍♂️

Either way those women shouldn't have to have been so financially desperate that they had to put out for their boss to keep their jobs. The predation of the vulnerable will continue unless the vulnerable have the means to help themselves.


----------



## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> Well, thats a fail 🤦‍♂️
> 
> Either way those women shouldn't have to have been so financially desperate that they had to put out for their boss to keep their jobs. The predation of the vulnerable will continue unless the vulnerable have the means to help themselves.


Yep. It's a hard thing to deal with for sure.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

EleGirl said:


> I'm going to share some about a guy I used to work for. This was after I left that job where the men had a peep hole into the women's bathroom. I've had an interest from an early age in silver & gold smithing, stone cutting, jewelry making, etc. I got a job with a man who sold jewelry. He was in his late 50's. He owned several restaurants too. He had a workshop in the back rooms of one of his restaurants. I worked for him for about 5 years. He'd buy the silver, gold, stones, etc. I'd turn it all into jewelry that he would sell all over the Western US. He also bought jewelry from other independent jewelers and sold that too. When he was in town, he would often spend a lot of time with me in the shop working. We talked a lot while we worked. And he got to feel very comfortable around me. It was great... until... he apparently really opened up to me. He told me about how he loved running the restaurants. Why? Because he would hire single mothers, women whose husbands had died, walked out on them, etc. He would strike up close relationships with these women. Then he'd make his move. He let them know that if they wanted to keep their jobs, they had to have an affair with him... basically sex when he wanted it. He told me that it was great because these women were trapped. He knew he was being predatory and thought it was great. There were no other jobs in the area. The women were stuck. He thought this was great. I don't know why he opened up to me like that, but it was just weird. He never put any pressure on me for sex or anything else. If anyone else had told me he did this in the past I would not have believed them 'cause he just seemed like a very nice, sweet, kind older man.
> 
> I knew his wife and kids very well. We all hung out together. I stopped working with him because I was freaked out by what he told me. And it was just too uncomfortable to be around his wife after that. Poor woman.


He was just a predator. He had it all worked out, didn't he? What's sad is he felt that was just so okay to do that he didn't mind telling you about it. 

It's cool you were doing that kind of work. I like that.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

@TexasMom1216 posted this..... So is your point that women need to just get over it?

I believe @Enigma32 is just pointing out that it routinely happens to guys too but the vast majority of guys just move through it without much thought. Single guys may exploit it, still without fuss.

Yes, it's different than with women. Women should never be sexually harassed. Yes, yes, yes...this is a double standard however even loudly acknowledging it will never ever change it, men have to and will just push through women harassing men in the real world.

Most men never think twice about it.

Edited to correct the quote.


----------



## joannacroc

Regularly felt up when I was working in the restaurant industry by one coworker in particular. I am not offended by swearing so that was never an issue. I don't care about over sharing or whatever, but if someone touches me, it pisses me off. I learned to time my trips to the walk in with another female colleague, but the space is tight, so there are a lot of opportunities for dudes to come behind you way closer than they need to. Most of the guys I worked with were fine. That dude was an idiot. I didn't have the courage at the time to go to my boss. I felt like they would fire me if I complained. That probably wasn't true. But whatever. There is a lot of sexism in the industry. A lot of condescension.


----------



## ConanHub

This was late 80's. A coworker expressed interest in me and I decided to take her up on it.

We went out after work and ended up at her place.

We were in the process of getting intimate when I discovered she was married. I stopped things, got her to shower and left.

The next day she was angry and I told her I didn't mess around with married women.

She didn't want to take no for an answer and started harassing me which included blatantly groping me on my package.

It wasn't a great job so I quit but she kept trying to harass me with phone calls.

Last I heard she got divorced and her husband was mad at me for it. Go figure.


----------



## sideways

Busy Washing My Hair said:


> In my early 20s I had an office directly across from a very high ranking, longtime male employee. He often made comments about my breasts. My breasts are definitely not small but I did not walk around the office in low cut tops flaunting my cleavage. If I was standing in the doorway to his office when talking to him or trying to ask him a question he’d blatantly stare right at my chest and say things like “I’m sorry, what was that? I was really distracted by those things.” He knew very well what I had said to him but he thought it was quite funny. I remember being in his office once and he told me I should button my top all the way up or he might lose control. He would also make comments to me about his “boner” from across the hall (as in he was saying it across the hall where other people, including the owner of the company could hear). Nobody ever did anything about it. Everyone joked that he had a sexual harassment suit coming but he claimed he knew too much about the skeletons in everyone’s closet for anyone to do anything about him. I didn’t do anything about it. I kept my office door closed as often as possible. I was young and stupid and scared to say anything at the time.


If a guy pulled this with my wife he'd be hearing from me. 

Men who sexually harass women are LOSERS and should be called out and dealt with.


----------



## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> I'm going to share some about a guy I used to work for. This was after I left that job where the men had a peep hole into the women's bathroom. I've had an interest from an early age in silver & gold smithing, stone cutting, jewelry making, etc. I got a job with a man who sold jewelry. He was in his late 50's. He owned several restaurants too. He had a workshop in the back rooms of one of his restaurants. I worked for him for about 5 years. He'd buy the silver, gold, stones, etc. I'd turn it all into jewelry that he would sell all over the Western US. He also bought jewelry from other independent jewelers and sold that too. When he was in town, he would often spend a lot of time with me in the shop working. We talked a lot while we worked. And he got to feel very comfortable around me. It was great... until... he apparently really opened up to me. He told me about how he loved running the restaurants. Why? Because he would hire single mothers, women whose husbands had died, walked out on them, etc. He would strike up close relationships with these women. Then he'd make his move. He let them know that if they wanted to keep their jobs, they had to have an affair with him... basically sex when he wanted it. He told me that it was great because these women were trapped. He knew he was being predatory and thought it was great. There were no other jobs in the area. The women were stuck. He thought this was great. I don't know why he opened up to me like that, but it was just weird. He never put any pressure on me for sex or anything else. If anyone else had told me he did this in the past I would not have believed them 'cause he just seemed like a very nice, sweet, kind older man.
> 
> I knew his wife and kids very well. We all hung out together. I stopped working with him because I was freaked out by what he told me. And it was just too uncomfortable to be around his wife after that. Poor woman.


Well I certainly hope that rapist reaped what he sowed.👿


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Well I certainly hope that rapist reaped what he sowed.👿


Nope, he was a rich man, a pillar of the community. He lived a good, long life.

Hopefully he's burning in hell.


----------



## BigDaddyNY

I had a few odd jobs as a teen, but as an adult I've only ever had two employers, the US Army and the current company I've been with for over 26 years, so my experience is limited.

I was in the Army from 1990-96. The platoon I was in was a unit level Comms and Electronics shop and there were a fair number of women. I know there were things we did back then that could be called sexual harassment today, but at that time it was because we all treated everyone as one of the "guys". The women dished it as well as the men and none of us that were doing this held much if any power over the others. The shop NCO and WO never engaged in those kind of things. 

My current company has been run by a woman almost the entire time I've worked for them and the current CEO has been there for about 20 years. Our general counsel is a women as well and there are 3 of nine BOD members that are women. Maybe that is a factor, not sure, but we have absolutely zero tolerance for work place harassment of any kind. Every employee goes through training twice a year. Managers and up do too, but also have additional training on spotting and addressing harassment. I've only had a few women that report to me, directly or indirectly, and I've always felt they were treated as equals and never witnessed nor heard of anything inappropriate. There was an engineer that worked for me that stupidly started having inappropriate email conversations with a woman, not an employee, while he was on a job in Japan. He was using his work email account. This woman was not his wife BTW. I assume that was why he was using his work account. Our IT dept monitors all email traffic for anything inappropriate. They brought it to my attention, sent me the whole string of emails. I recalled him from Japan and fired him for inappropriate use of company equipment. 

I genuinely hope most workplaces have a similar zero tolerance for harassment and take it seriously when reported. My daughter is a newly minted engineer working in a largely male dominated industry. I hope she never has to deal with anything like sexual harassment.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> Hopefully he's burning in hell.


If not, I'll go put him on the roast once I get down there


----------



## RandomDude

ConanHub said:


> Last I heard she got divorced and her husband was mad at me for it. Go figure.


Was it like the movie Other Guy?

"No one lives without making love to my wife!"


----------



## ConanHub

RandomDude said:


> Was it like the movie Other Guy?
> 
> "No one lives without making love to my wife!"


I only wish. That would have been hilarious!😆

The guy wanted to kill me in real life even though his wife was the instigator and pursuer.


----------



## RandomDude

ConanHub said:


> I only wish. That would have been hilarious!😆
> 
> The guy wanted to kill me in real life even though his wife was the instigator and pursuer.


Potiphar's wife.


----------



## ConanHub

RandomDude said:


> Potiphar's wife.


100%


----------



## Busy Washing My Hair

sideways said:


> If a guy pulled this with my wife he'd be hearing from me.
> 
> Men who sexually harass women are LOSERS and should be called out and dealt with.


My husband eventually came to my place of employment and threatened the pervert, which did put a stop to it for the most part.


----------



## pastasauce79

I was a babysitter. One time I was watching a couple of young kids, the dad worked from home, I was passing him on the hallway and I turned my back to him to let him go through. He stopped, lifted my top and rubbed my back. I was paralyzed in shock. It took me a few seconds to react, turn and look at him... He just smiled and right then his kids came running towards us. I didn't make a scene because the kids were there. I babysat the kids until their mom found another babysitter. I avoided the dad at all times. He kept asking if something was wrong... I kept thinking, are you kidding me??? I was young, I was an immigrant with little work history, they were a family with money, and the mom was really good to me. I haven't told my husband about it because the kids mom was awesome to me and my husband. 

I babysat other kids as well and never had a problem with other dads.

I definitely avoid being alone with male coworkers. I haven't had a bad experience since then. All my male coworkers and bosses have been great. I don't give them an opportunity to get too personal with me and talk a lot about my husband.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

pastasauce79 said:


> I was a babysitter. One time I was watching a couple of young kids, the dad worked from home, I was passing him on the hallway and I turned my back to him to let him go through. He stopped, lifted my top and rubbed my back. I was paralyzed in shock. It took me a few seconds to react, turn and look at him... He just smiled and right then his kids came running towards us. I didn't make a scene because the kids were there. I babysat the kids until their mom found another babysitter. I avoided the dad at all times. He kept asking if something was wrong... I kept thinking, are you kidding me??? I was young, I was an immigrant with little work history, they were a family with money, and the mom was really good to me. I haven't told my husband about it because the kids mom was awesome to me and my husband.
> 
> I babysat other kids as well and never had a problem with other dads.
> 
> I definitely avoid being alone with male coworkers. I haven't had a bad experience since then. All my male coworkers and bosses have been great. I don't give them an opportunity to get too personal with me and talk a lot about my husband.


What a slimy dude. Too bad such a nice lady was married to him. 

It really is a great idea if you're married to talk about your spouse at work often enough to make it clear that's where your allegiance lies.


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> What a slimy dude. Too bad such a nice lady was married to him.
> 
> It really is a great idea if you're married to talk about your spouse at work often enough to make it clear that's where your allegiance lies.


I do this. My one exception to work happy hours is if spouses are invited. Generally after they meet my H I don’t have to worry about anyone taking any liberties. He’s a scary man. 🥰🤪


----------



## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> I do this. My one exception to work happy hours is if spouses are invited. Generally after they meet my H I don’t have to worry about anyone taking any liberties. He’s a scary man. 🥰🤪


There are guys that are stupid enough to though. Where I used to work there was this real pretty woman who was really not the nicest woman on Earth because she was kind of rough but you couldn't tell that by how she acted at work. But I knew she would kind of get in fights with other women and stuff, physical fights.

So I had two or three different guys asked me about her and her story is she was married with a bunch of kids. She was married to this guy who was some kind of amateur boxer or fighter of some sort. I had only seen him in there once. So I would tell these guys about that and also about that she was not as sweet as she looked, but there are those who took a shot anyway.

I didn't keep up with her at all because we weren't friends and didn't work in the same department, but somewhere along the line she did eventually leave her husband because she ended up marrying this accountant who worked at our company.


----------



## D0nnivain

Sadly I think most women have a harassment story. The best response is to assertively say No. Some harassers are just scum but many "pick" their victims -- women who can't or won't say Buzz Off. If you are clear, that will usually solve the problem. When it doesn't take the issue up. Say no verbally but make note of the date. When it happens again, say no in writing (email is fine) by referencing the latest issue & the prior one by date & time where you said no verbally. Tell the idiot that if he does it again, the next note is going to management / HR. If the idiot owns the company say you are going to your lawyer or the EEOC. The third time, strike 3, send a note plus a copy of note 2 to HR. Be prepared to show how the unwelcome conduct is adversely effecting the terms & conditions of your employment. 

But not everything is harassment. If you get a compliment, it's just a compliment, not always a pick up line. I'm talking about an occasional compliment, not a daily barrage of commentary about your looks. If you say Buzz off & the guy goes away it was simply unfortunate. 

My friend's daughter was about 17, working in a big box store as a cashier. The Assistant Manager was a whopping 22. He asked her out. Instead of saying no, she giggled, stared at the floor & didn't say anything. He asked again a couple of days later. She did more of the same. Third time an older cashier (about 50) saw this & told the Assistant Manager to Buzz off & stop harassing the 17 year old. The cashier then marched the 17 year old into the Store Manager's office & forced her to repeat the whole story. The Store Manager called the Assistant Manager who admitted he did ask out the 17 year old. The Assistant Manager was fired on the spot. The employer reacted swiftly & decisively. Although IMO it was an overreaction & the Assistant Manager would have been properly disciplined with a suspension & the store could have simply not scheduled these two together again. 

That story broke my heart for the Assistant Store manager. He misread the situation. If the 17 year old had simply used her words & said No, instead of giggling & being evasive, I bet that poor inexperienced 22 year old would have shrugged, moved along & there would have been no issue. Because she giggled he took that for shyness, not lack of interest. He didn't see himself as powerful. 

My advice to any woman who feels harassed -- Just Say NO! Most of the time that will be sufficient. When you are unclear, you create more problems. When saying No is not enough to stop the behavior cold, that is when true sexual harassment starts & you have other avenues to make it stop.


----------



## minimalME

D0nnivain said:


> My advice to any woman who feels harassed -- Just Say NO! Most of the time that will be sufficient. When you are unclear, you create more problems.


I completely agree with this.

Unfortunately, in today's climate, you're going to have people who say, 'She shouldn't have to say no!'

She shouldn't have to pay attention to what she wears or what she drinks or where she walks.

How sad that this young man was fired for asking someone out on a date.


----------



## TexasMom1216

minimalME said:


> She shouldn't have to pay attention to what she wears or what she drinks or where she walks.


This has been one of the most dangerous tricks the left played on women. The idea that you don't have to be careful because "teach men not to rape" is so dangerous. Women are always vulnerable, we see every day how many men feel entitled to women's bodies. There's no question that men shouldn't assault women, but you still have to be careful.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

D0nnivain said:


> Sadly I think most women have a harassment story. The best response is to assertively say No. Some harassers are just scum but many "pick" their victims -- women who can't or won't say Buzz Off. If you are clear, that will usually solve the problem. When it doesn't take the issue up. Say no verbally but make note of the date. When it happens again, say no in writing (email is fine) by referencing the latest issue & the prior one by date & time where you said no verbally. Tell the idiot that if he does it again, the next note is going to management / HR. If the idiot owns the company say you are going to your lawyer or the EEOC. The third time, strike 3, send a note plus a copy of note 2 to HR. Be prepared to show how the unwelcome conduct is adversely effecting the terms & conditions of your employment.
> 
> But not everything is harassment. If you get a compliment, it's just a compliment, not always a pick up line. I'm talking about an occasional compliment, not a daily barrage of commentary about your looks. If you say Buzz off & the guy goes away it was simply unfortunate.
> 
> My friend's daughter was about 17, working in a big box store as a cashier. The Assistant Manager was a whopping 22. He asked her out. Instead of saying no, she giggled, stared at the floor & didn't say anything. He asked again a couple of days later. She did more of the same. Third time an older cashier (about 50) saw this & told the Assistant Manager to Buzz off & stop harassing the 17 year old. The cashier then marched the 17 year old into the Store Manager's office & forced her to repeat the whole story. The Store Manager called the Assistant Manager who admitted he did ask out the 17 year old. The Assistant Manager was fired on the spot. The employer reacted swiftly & decisively. Although IMO it was an overreaction & the Assistant Manager would have been properly disciplined with a suspension & the store could have simply not scheduled these two together again.
> 
> That story broke my heart for the Assistant Store manager. He misread the situation. If the 17 year old had simply used her words & said No, instead of giggling & being evasive, I bet that poor inexperienced 22 year old would have shrugged, moved along & there would have been no issue. Because she giggled he took that for shyness, not lack of interest. He didn't see himself as powerful.
> 
> My advice to any woman who feels harassed -- Just Say NO! Most of the time that will be sufficient. When you are unclear, you create more problems. When saying No is not enough to stop the behavior cold, that is when true sexual harassment starts & you have other avenues to make it stop.


None of my sexual harassment involved anyone asking me out. I wouldn't have been shy about telling them no or to buzz off, and I very often was much more colorful in my responses to the crap I was subjected to. 

But I'm sorry, I don't feel sorry for that 22-year-old. She may have been too intimidated to be direct and say no, but nowhere in there did I see a yes or anything resembling one. And yet he persisted. Not responding is not a yes and is certainly not encouragement and most people would know that by that age. I believe he thought he had someone he could intimidate into going out with him if he just kept it up.

Reverse the roles. 22-year-old female employee goes up and asks out a 17 year old male employee, who doesn't respond but just puts his head down and acts embarrassed. 

You seriously think that female employee would take that as anything other than a no? Do you think a female employee would come back two more times and make the man uncomfortable? If she did, would you feel sorry for her or figure she needed to grow some boundaries?


----------



## D0nnivain

I think some people see anything other than a direct No as a yes. I agree with you that anything other than a direct yes is more likely a no but optimists are out there. Best to be clear. 

A lot of that could have been avoided if she just said No. It's not a difficult word & sometimes like in your situations it is more nefarious but even then a Good Hell No, get the F away from me will also quell all but the most ardent predator. 

A former boss of mine groped me one night after we had all been drinking with clients. I turned around & punched him square in the nose because I was so startled & upset that he dared to touch my behind. I punch like a girl so he wasn't hurt but he was sputtering, "what did you do that for?" and threatening to fire me. I replied that I thought we were doing offensive touching. He grabbed me. I punched him. Seemed proportional to me. That is self-defense in its purest form. By then I had my wits & calmly explained we could forget the whole thing, never to be repeated, or he could actually fire me, I'd sue him & make sure all the newspapers & TV stations covered it. We were in a business where that would have been genuine news & it would have ruined his business so it was not an idle threat. He never touched me again & gave me primo assignments after that because I proved I was tough & wouldn't take s h1 t from anyone. 

Giggling & staring at the floor makes things worse. We need more women to protect themselves. Although they shouldn't have to, the reality is they do. So, learning to say "F off" helps. Teaching people to be victims & rely on some feel good civil rights law doesn't always solve the immediate problem & it causes lack of self-esteem. It robs women of their power because they are being institutionally told they are helpless in the moment. Whereas sticking up for yourself is empowering, especially when you have those same civil rights anti-discrimination laws on your side.


----------



## minimalME

D0nnivain said:


> *I replied that I thought we were doing offensive touching.* He grabbed me. I punched him. Seemed proportional to me. That is self-defense in its purest form. By then I had my wits & calmly explained we could forget the whole thing, never to be repeated, or he could actually fire me, I'd sue him & make sure all the newspapers & TV stations covered it. We were in a business where that would have been genuine news & it would have ruined his business so it was not an idle threat. He never touched me again & gave me primo assignments after that because I proved I was tough & wouldn't take s h1 t from anyone.


You're awesome! 😂


----------



## DownByTheRiver

D0nnivain said:


> I think some people see anything other than a direct No as a yes. I agree with you that anything other than a direct yes is more likely a no but optimists are out there. Best to be clear.
> 
> A lot of that could have been avoided if she just said No. It's not a difficult word & sometimes like in your situations it is more nefarious but even then a Good Hell No, get the F away from me will also quell all but the most ardent predator.
> 
> A former boss of mine groped me one night after we had all been drinking with clients. I turned around & punched him square in the nose because I was so startled & upset that he dared to touch my behind. I punch like a girl so he wasn't hurt but he was sputtering, "what did you do that for?" and threatening to fire me. I replied that I thought we were doing offensive touching. He grabbed me. I punched him. Seemed proportional to me. That is self-defense in its purest form. By then I had my wits & calmly explained we could forget the whole thing, never to be repeated, or he could actually fire me, I'd sue him & make sure all the newspapers & TV stations covered it. We were in a business where that would have been genuine news & it would have ruined his business so it was not an idle threat. He never touched me again & gave me primo assignments after that because I proved I was tough & wouldn't take s h1 t from anyone.
> 
> Giggling & staring at the floor makes things worse. We need more women to protect themselves. Although they shouldn't have to, the reality is they do. So, learning to say "F off" helps. Teaching people to be victims & rely on some feel good civil rights law doesn't always solve the immediate problem & it causes lack of self-esteem. It robs women of their power because they are being institutionally told they are helpless in the moment. Whereas sticking up for yourself is empowering, especially when you have those same civil rights anti-discrimination laws on your side.


Not saying yes is a no when you are asked a direct question about going out with someone. There are a lot of men as well as women who won't be that direct to say no, but any idiot can see from their actions that they're uncomfortable. And you don't have to be assertive to say yes to a date if that's what you want.

I had a little tiny beautiful friend in the late '80s that got groped at a concert. She was this sweet little thing with a high voice soft voice. This guy came up behind her and grabbed her and she just immediately whirled around and smacked him.

She worked in a low high rise office building at a record label. I was picking her up after work one day and she stopped in the bottom floor lobby to use the ladies room first. She was Hispanic and there were a couple of Hispanic workers of some sort down on that floor. When she came out of the restroom and out to the car she was real shook up. One of them had come in the ladies room and lay down on the floor at her stall so he could see her. Ick. She wouldn't report it to her bosses or building security or anything. I was just chomping at the bit to report it for her, but she knows those people better than I do and there was a lot of sexual harassment type stuff in her own company so I let it be (same company who installed a call girl at our office). I would have called the police but I would have liked to have gotten someone in her office to walk her to her car for a while.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

She had told me after that incident at the concert that because she was Hispanic, some Hispanic guys just felt entitled to do whatever they wanted to her and that it was an ongoing problem. She taught me they were of two ilks. There were some who were very gallant to women, but then there were others who were just bad to them.


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> She had told me after that incident at the concert that because she was Hispanic, some Hispanic guys just felt entitled to do whatever they wanted to her and that it was an ongoing problem. She taught me they were of two ilks. There were some who were very gallant to women, but then there were others who were just bad to them.


Kinda spans the races, there are men in every race that feel entitled to women. There's a whole movement of men who feel entitled to women, it's sadly gaining more and more traction.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

TexasMom1216 said:


> Kinda spans the races, there are men in every race that feel entitled to women. There's a whole movement of men who feel entitled to women, it's sadly gaining more and more traction.


Yes. I think that culture, the protective ones had an even more exaggerated credo to respect (in their own way of course) the women in order to try to protect them from the predators. But even those were pronouncing them a woman at 15 and setting them off to start having babies young. This one defied tradition and was alienated from her whole family for choosing not to stay with them and raise children for the next 3 generations and instead following a big career. Only her miscreant brother ever contacted her, and he had been in prison before and was haranguing her for money because he knew she worked and had some. I don't know if she ever gave in to him or not, but I know she didn't like him being around at all. She gave up a lot just not to agree to get pregnant as a teen and do the traditional thing her family did. She never did have kids. That is a bold decision for someone from her culture. I wish we were still in touch, but our lifestyles got further apart.


----------



## heartsbeating

D0nnivain said:


> But not everything is harassment. If you get a compliment, it's just a compliment, not always a pick up line. I'm talking about an occasional compliment, not a daily barrage of commentary about your looks. If you say Buzz off & the guy goes away it was simply unfortunate.


Agreed!



D0nnivain said:


> My friend's daughter was about 17, working in a big box store as a cashier. The Assistant Manager was a whopping 22. He asked her out. Instead of saying no, she giggled, stared at the floor & didn't say anything. He asked again a couple of days later. She did more of the same. Third time an older cashier (about 50) saw this & told the Assistant Manager to Buzz off & stop harassing the 17 year old. The cashier then marched the 17 year old into the Store Manager's office & forced her to repeat the whole story. The Store Manager called the Assistant Manager who admitted he did ask out the 17 year old. The Assistant Manager was fired on the spot. The employer reacted swiftly & decisively. Although IMO it was an overreaction & the Assistant Manager would have been properly disciplined with a suspension & the store could have simply not scheduled these two together again.
> 
> That story broke my heart for the Assistant Store manager. He misread the situation. If the 17 year old had simply used her words & said No, instead of giggling & being evasive, I bet that poor inexperienced 22 year old would have shrugged, moved along & there would have been no issue. Because she giggled he took that for shyness, not lack of interest. He didn't see himself as powerful.


Initially reading this, I concluded similarly to you. And yet, it was the older cashier who saw his attempt and decided it wasn't cool. Maybe reading social cues wasn't the 22 year old's strong point. Maybe his past actions in that workplace determined the reaction of the older cashier and the outcome. Or, maybe the outcome was indeed an over-reaction. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe... I know, not helpful. Here's another 'maybe' for good measure while I'm here; 'maybe' it was a small lesson for the friend's daughter to also learn that it's okay to say no.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Young men need to forget about persistence paying off. It usually doesn't. It just becomes harassment. It's honestly easier for her to say yes than to say no. Saying no, she knows is going to hurt the guy's feelings. Saying yes is much easier and pleasant. So if she wanted to say yes, she would have said yes. 

I think the older woman saw him coming at her a third time and made the right call. That's getting a bit stalkery. There have been a lot of horrible things happen that started just this way in the workplace, with one persistent guy no one there did anything about, whether he was an employee or a customer. It's awful to have to work with someone you know will continue to try to corner you. No one should have to put up with that.


----------



## RandomDude

DownByTheRiver said:


> Young men need to forget about persistence paying off. It usually doesn't. It just becomes harassment. It's honestly easier for her to say yes than to say no. Saying no, she knows is going to hurt the guy's feelings. Saying yes is much easier and pleasant. So if she wanted to say yes, she would have said yes.
> 
> I think the older woman saw him coming at her a third time and made the right call. That's getting a bit stalkery. There have been a lot of horrible things happen that started just this way in the workplace, with one persistent guy no one there did anything about, whether he was an employee or a customer. It's awful to have to work with someone you know will continue to try to corner you. No one should have to put up with that.


Legally only one romantic attempt is tolerated here. No means no.

For a guy it can be different, I said no how many times. I still liked her harassment, because she was attractive


----------



## ccpowerslave

DownByTheRiver said:


> Young men need to forget about persistence paying off. It usually doesn't.


I never tried more than once ever even if I really thought I liked the girl. You have to have some level of self-respect for yourself to not turn into a pathetic orbiter or simp.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> I never tried more than once ever even if I really thought I liked the girl. You have to have some level of self-respect for yourself to not turn into a pathetic orbiter or simp.


Yeah, and those are the types that get to be a problem or stalker or start making other people think they have a relationship with you when they don't and interfere in that way with your real social life. I had a guy do that to me. I already knew him, part of the crowd, but he really tried to let the crowd think there was something going on. 

I mean, I confess I have been an orbiter before. I do know both sides of the coin, BUT I wouldn't have kept up if there hadn't been some tangible thing going on to encourage me. I definitely orbited one guy pretty much off and on my whole life. But at least we did occasionally sleep together while he was still stateside. (He became someone who lived in different foreign countries about 15 years in.) Still, it was obsessive early on on my part. But I mean, if he'd ever done anything to snub me or look annoyed, I would have cleared out. I do have pride, and I'm not dumb.


----------



## D0nnivain

RandomDude said:


> Legally only one romantic attempt is tolerated here. No means no.


No always means no but the legal definition of sexual harassment requires severe or pervasive conduct on the part of bad actor. Case law usually defines severe as physical touching but there have been other instances where one & done resulted in liability. One instance was when the chief of police called a black woman recruit a jungle bunny as he walked past her while she was going calisthenics; another a group of airline pilots hung up a nude center fold in the cockpit then pasted feminine napkins on the woman pilot's locker. But generally pervasive requires the conducted to be repeated often.

One strike & you're out may be company policy but it is not the law in the US. I can't speak to OZ, which is where I think you are from.


----------



## Divinely Favored

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm not sure I recall anyone defending women who sexually harass men. I do recall a story of a woman being fired for that behavior. I'm not sure what your point is.


It is kinda like people tend to not believe or belittle a guy that claims he was raped by a woman.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Divinely Favored said:


> It is kinda like people tend to not believe or belittle a guy that claims he was raped by a woman.


I guess that could go in the double standard thread. Good point.

Another common expectation for the guy, hey just deal with it no fuss move on, not really a thing. A married guy hopefully heads off by saying clear no and extricates himself.


----------



## Divinely Favored

TexasMom1216 said:


> FIFY 😉


They probably decided if you can't beat them join them, since all their wives are back home getting railed by dudes they picked up at the bars and took home since hubby started being sent out of town on business matters.


----------



## Divinely Favored

EleGirl said:


> If the men don't care, it's not sexual harassment. Some women don't care either. I've worked in places were sexualized behavior and teasing seemed to be part of the culture. I was the odd one out.


It is very much still sexual harassment. I'd does not have to be the object of the "harassment" filing the complaint. It can be a co-worker that saw or heard it. 

If I was notified by one of my officers that they saw/heard something, I was required to take action or I could have been held accountable also. If I saw it, I would call them on it, male or female and there would be a report to HR to decide what level of punishment is deemed appropriate.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I guess that could go in the double standard thread. Good point.
> 
> Another common expectation for the guy, hey just deal with it no fuss move on, not really a thing. A married guy hopefully heads off by saying clear no and extricates himself.


 Same if guy gets drunk and has sex with a girl he clearly would not have, had he not been drunk. There is a "You go girl!" From her friends. 

But let the rolls be reversed and "She was raped because she could not give legal consent" even though she was very enthusiastic during the act. 

They would tell the guy, "BS you know you wanted to"

I know there were a couple of girls I could have filed on. I had to find out from other people. I was like BS! Hell no! Then I remembered like a 2-3 second flash of memory. Oh hell no!

I should not have mixed the rum and moonshine damn it!


----------



## farsidejunky

ccpowerslave said:


> I never tried more than once ever even if I really thought I liked the girl. You have to have some level of self-respect for yourself to not turn into a pathetic orbiter or simp.


FTW.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Divinely Favored said:


> It is kinda like people tend to not believe or belittle a guy that claims he was raped by a woman.


I think it's mostly that men don't want to admit it. Usually men are just stronger than women and don't have to submit to rape but of course if somebody's been drugged or something like that...


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think it's mostly that men don't want to admit it. Usually men are just stronger than women and don't have to submit to rape but of course if somebody's been drugged or something like that...


I agree. Men are ashamed to admit it. They shouldn’t be. There are bad women, the same as there are bad men, and everyone needs to be held to the same standards.


----------



## Divinely Favored

DownByTheRiver said:


> I think it's mostly that men don't want to admit it. Usually men are just stronger than women and don't have to submit to rape but of course if somebody's been drugged or something like that...


No wanting to admit would keep them from coming forward. It is usually the women who deny a guy is raped by the woman, tend to say it can't happen, or other guys that have no issue and would say "Hey, you got laid, don't complain."


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Divinely Favored said:


> No wanting to admit would keep them from coming forward. It is usually the women who deny a guy is raped by the woman, tend to say it can't happen, or other guys that have no issue and would say "Hey, you got laid, don't complain."


Yep. And men don't admit when they rape women either and say the woman wanted it.


----------



## TexasMom1216

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yep. Can men don't admit when the rape women either and say the woman wanted it.


This is why #metoo really upset me. Lying about assault leads to no one believing anyone. We see online that most men believe women want to be raped and enjoy it and were “asking for it.” It needs to be a crime, something awful and unforgivable. When so many women lie about it, it puts real victims in danger and supports shaming them and blaming them for the rape.


----------



## ConanHub

TexasMom1216 said:


> We see online that MOST MEN believe women want to be raped and enjoy it and were “asking for it.”


Really? Most men really think that way?

I guess I've somehow avoided running into "most men" for most of my life.

I've found that extremely few degenerates believe that way and they generally try to avoid me.


----------



## ccpowerslave

Yeah, guy who says “she was asking for it” is a guy who needs an ass kicking on his way to jail (and then also hopefully every day in jail).


----------



## DownByTheRiver

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah, guy who says “she was asking for it” is a guy who needs an ass kicking on his way to jail (and then also hopefully every day in jail).


I got into it like a decade ago on our local newspaper blog about date rape. Every guy writing on there felt date rape wasn't rape because the girl agreed to go out with him. It was disgusting. And only me and the author of the article were on the other side. It went all the way up to our police chief at the time. I wrote him and recommended certain books so he would educate himself. Don't know if he read them, but he did get educated by the women's center over the next couple of months and change his stance that the solution was "girls shouldn't go out drinking." How about "Boys shouldn't go out raping?"


----------



## Enigma32

Divinely Favored said:


> It is kinda like people tend to not believe or belittle a guy that claims he was raped by a woman.


After a night of heavy drinking, I had a female friend crash at my place because we were both really wasted. I passed out on the couch and woke up to her going down on me and trying to have sex. She did climb on top of me but I was honestly so drunk that I couldn't feel a thing and don't even know if she managed the deed. Either way, I pushed her off of me. I told the story to a group of women and they all laughed. If I had done that to a woman, would they be laughing? 

With all that said, there is a reason double standards exist. Even after my drunk friend did all that, I didn't really care and we are still friends. Heck, even I think it's kinda funny. And sad on her part.


----------



## Ditartyn

Hello. I had no experience of sexual harassment in the workplace, but I had the experience of sexual harassment through social networks. I was looking for a job, and so LinkedIn is now a great way to do something; I decided to try to become a note to get a good offer for work. But the boss of one company started bugging me and demanded my photos in a swimsuit. I then turned to Digital Investigation, and they figured out this person about his IP. It turned out that this was my former coworker system administrator with whom I refused to go on a date.


----------



## ConanHub

Ditartyn said:


> Hello. I had no experience of sexual harassment in the workplace, but I had the experience of sexual harassment through social networks.


Well. Do share.


----------



## Young at Heart

DownByTheRiver said:


> I put this in ladies lounge only because it seemed to fit in better here but men are welcome to relate their sexual harassment stories as well.
> 
> One thing that would be helpful is if you told whether it happened prior to Anita Hill or after, because before the Anita Hill hearing, there wasn't much hope of doing anything about it.


Yes, I am a man. I view it as a culture thing that needs to be stamped out of the workplace. In my opinion it destroys the ability to retain skilled professional women in the workplace.

I was a division manager at a company that employed predominantly male union construction workers. Prior to Anita Hill. My group had both union construction workers and college engineering non-union professionals. We did some equipment automation and operations work. One of the female engineering employees in my group came up to me one day and told me that she wanted permission to move from the office she worked at in the building from which the union workers were dispatched. I asked why and she told me she had been harassed. I immediately said yes and asked her to call one of her coworkers to bring her stuff to the location, where my office was.

A few days later she said she wanted to remain at this location, but wanted to go back after the workers were out in the field to do some work with her group. I told her that was fine, but if there were any problems to let me know.

Well it didn't take long before a problem happened. Someone, removed air from the tires on her vehicle and removed some of the fuses from her car as retaliation for her actions. She told me who she thought had done it, but I had to promise not to tell anyone. I knew him, he was married and didn't work in my division.

I contacted the head of the division that managed the construction workers and sat down with him and explained that he needed to do something about this. He did a "boys will be boys" statement and said he didn't want any union problems. I said that if he didn't do something, I would call the local police as what had happened was a criminal mater. He got the CEO and the HR department involved the next day.

What happened next really surprised me. The HR department came in and interviewed me and all my staff. Their report was that I had over reacted and they recommended that I and my entire staff should go through a sexual harassment training course. Absolutely, nothing about the criminality of what happened. The sexual harassment trainer came in and then wrote up a report. Her report was that our group was not providing the female employee with sufficient support. She also said nothing about training of other parts of the organization. I asked what kind of support we should provide when criminal activities happen on company property? I could not get an answer.

In short the company tried to establish legal protection from a future lawsuit and hung me and my division out as the scapegoat. I understood what they did, but I lost faith in them and its wasn't long before I left that company.

I also have a college graduate female relative who worked with a group of architects, post Anita Hill. The architects were "old school" and would take male clients out for business lunches at a local strip club. As a professional, she was invited to attend. She found it absolutely disgusting and it really lowered her opinion of her coworkers. She felt it created a hostile work environment and made it hard for her to develop professional contacts with clients. Ultimately she left that firm and it was there loss.

I do not support any sexual harassment, do not feel it is important to cover it up, and feel that it harms not only the person harassed, but also the company where it happens.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Young at Heart said:


> Yes, I am a man. I view it as a culture thing that needs to be stamped out of the workplace. In my opinion it destroys the ability to retain skilled professional women in the workplace.
> 
> I was a division manager at a company that employed predominantly male union construction workers. Prior to Anita Hill. My group had both union construction workers and college engineering non-union professionals. We did some equipment automation and operations work. One of the female engineering employees in my group came up to me one day and told me that she wanted permission to move from the office she worked at in the building from which the union workers were dispatched. I asked why and she told me she had been harassed. I immediately said yes and asked her to call one of her coworkers to bring her stuff to the location, where my office was.
> 
> A few days later she said she wanted to remain at this location, but wanted to go back after the workers were out in the field to do some work with her group. I told her that was fine, but if there were any problems to let me know.
> 
> Well it didn't take long before a problem happened. Someone, removed air from the tires on her vehicle and removed some of the fuses from her car as retaliation for her actions. She told me who she thought had done it, but I had to promise not to tell anyone. I knew him, he was married and didn't work in my division.
> 
> I contacted the head of the division that managed the construction workers and sat down with him and explained that he needed to do something about this. He did a "boys will be boys" statement and said he didn't want any union problems. I said that if he didn't do something, I would call the local police as what had happened was a criminal mater. He got the CEO and the HR department involved the next day.
> 
> What happened next really surprised me. The HR department came in and interviewed me and all my staff. Their report was that I had over reacted and they recommended that I and my entire staff should go through a sexual harassment training course. Absolutely, nothing about the criminality of what happened. The sexual harassment trainer came in and then wrote up a report. Her report was that our group was not providing the female employee with sufficient support. She also said nothing about training of other parts of the organization. I asked what kind of support we should provide when criminal activities happen on company property? I could not get an answer.
> 
> In short the company tried to establish legal protection from a future lawsuit and hung me and my division out as the scapegoat. I understood what they did, but I lost faith in them and its wasn't long before I left that company.
> 
> I also have a college graduate female relative who worked with a group of architects, post Anita Hill. The architects were "old school" and would take male clients out for business lunches at a local strip club. As a professional, she was invited to attend. She found it absolutely disgusting and it really lowered her opinion of her coworkers. She felt it created a hostile work environment and made it hard for her to develop professional contacts with clients. Ultimately she left that firm and it was there loss.
> 
> I do not support any sexual harassment, do not feel it is important to cover it up, and feel that it harms not only the person harassed, but also the company where it happens.


Thank you for standing up. This was what women went through, including the company hanging the complainer out to dry and documenting it as their fault. Such BS. It really didn't happen in my experience before Anita Hill that anyone stood up for me or the other women _unless they were trying to leverage sex_. 

In 2005 or thereabouts, I did report something to HR anonymously and it seemed to get handled, but who knows because I also didn't last long after that. Any sales support I had had before disappeared, leaving me to flounder. So I think the big company's hr did the right thing, but the local male managers retaliated. 

It means so much when someone does stand up for you.


----------



## ConanHub

Young at Heart said:


> Yes, I am a man. I view it as a culture thing that needs to be stamped out of the workplace. In my opinion it destroys the ability to retain skilled professional women in the workplace.
> 
> I was a division manager at a company that employed predominantly male union construction workers. Prior to Anita Hill. My group had both union construction workers and college engineering non-union professionals. We did some equipment automation and operations work. One of the female engineering employees in my group came up to me one day and told me that she wanted permission to move from the office she worked at in the building from which the union workers were dispatched. I asked why and she told me she had been harassed. I immediately said yes and asked her to call one of her coworkers to bring her stuff to the location, where my office was.
> 
> A few days later she said she wanted to remain at this location, but wanted to go back after the workers were out in the field to do some work with her group. I told her that was fine, but if there were any problems to let me know.
> 
> Well it didn't take long before a problem happened. Someone, removed air from the tires on her vehicle and removed some of the fuses from her car as retaliation for her actions. She told me who she thought had done it, but I had to promise not to tell anyone. I knew him, he was married and didn't work in my division.
> 
> I contacted the head of the division that managed the construction workers and sat down with him and explained that he needed to do something about this. He did a "boys will be boys" statement and said he didn't want any union problems. I said that if he didn't do something, I would call the local police as what had happened was a criminal mater. He got the CEO and the HR department involved the next day.
> 
> What happened next really surprised me. The HR department came in and interviewed me and all my staff. Their report was that I had over reacted and they recommended that I and my entire staff should go through a sexual harassment training course. Absolutely, nothing about the criminality of what happened. The sexual harassment trainer came in and then wrote up a report. Her report was that our group was not providing the female employee with sufficient support. She also said nothing about training of other parts of the organization. I asked what kind of support we should provide when criminal activities happen on company property? I could not get an answer.
> 
> In short the company tried to establish legal protection from a future lawsuit and hung me and my division out as the scapegoat. I understood what they did, but I lost faith in them and its wasn't long before I left that company.
> 
> I also have a college graduate female relative who worked with a group of architects, post Anita Hill. The architects were "old school" and would take male clients out for business lunches at a local strip club. As a professional, she was invited to attend. She found it absolutely disgusting and it really lowered her opinion of her coworkers. She felt it created a hostile work environment and made it hard for her to develop professional contacts with clients. Ultimately she left that firm and it was there loss.
> 
> I do not support any sexual harassment, do not feel it is important to cover it up, and feel that it harms not only the person harassed, but also the company where it happens.


Filing a police report and getting the state breathing down their necks gets results.

No company really wants to do the right thing unless it will cost them not to.

The only way to get a company to respond correctly is to threaten their bottom line.

How frustrating. I'm angry.


----------



## Young at Heart

ConanHub said:


> Filing a police report and getting the state breathing down their necks gets results.
> 
> No company really wants to do the right thing unless it will cost them not to.
> 
> The only way to get a company to respond correctly is to threaten their bottom line.
> 
> How frustrating. I'm angry.


Thank you. I really couldn't believe that they wanted to make me the fall guy on what should have been a police matter, a firing of the harassing employee, and training for that part or all of the company. 

I completely changed my attitude toward that company and their values and ethics. I have always been kind of a "Boy Scout" when it came to ethics, but this shocked me to my core. I understood that they were protecting themselves from further damage, but the concept of "don't shoot the messenger of bad news" took on a whole new meaning.


----------



## Young at Heart

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thank you for standing up. This was what women went through, including the company hanging the complainer out to dry and documenting it as their fault. Such BS. It really didn't happen in my experience before Anita Hill that anyone stood up for me or the other women _unless they were trying to leverage sex_.
> 
> In 2005 or thereabouts, I did report something to HR anonymously and it seemed to get handled, but who knows because I also didn't last long after that. Any sales support I had had before disappeared, leaving me to flounder. So I think the big company's hr did the right thing, but the local male managers retaliated.
> 
> It means so much when someone does stand up for you.


Thank you for the "thank you." I felt I was protecting my team and my employee, which is what management should do. 

I was beyond shocked when I found out I was blamed for not being supportive enough and not creating a supportive enough environment. I honestly believe that it was so obviously criminal that they were scared to death of how it might turn out.

And just to make things perfectly clear and respond to your other comment. I had no sexual interest in that woman. I had a wife and two children, who meant the world to me. I have never had a sexual affair with anyone, while married.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

Young at Heart said:


> Thank you for the "thank you." I felt I was protecting my team and my employee, which is what management should do.
> 
> I was beyond shocked when I found out I was blamed for not being supportive enough and not creating a supportive enough environment. I honestly believe that it was so obviously criminal that they were scared to death of how it might turn out.
> 
> And just to make things perfectly clear and respond to your other comment. I had no sexual interest in that woman. I had a wife and two children, who meant the world to me. I have never had a sexual affair with anyone, while married.


Oh, no, I didn't mean to imply. It was just something that you had to look out for back then. Like one place where it was informal and a lot of us were very comfortable with each other, my manager once walked between a guy who had put his arm around me for a minute that I was friendly with, but then later, it turned out because then the manager wanted to hit on me. So all the wrong reasons.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Not any problems in the office I worked at for 24 yrs. But working for a Tx state criminal justice agency, it is beat into you at least yearly. Good thing is there was dress codes to follow, jeggins/leggings w/o sweater/top that covered a woman's backside was against policy. 

Just a couple time of my female officers leaning over my desk while working on something. I don't care to have a free shot of your chest all the way to your belly button. Don't believe it was intentional, so I just turned away to side facing my computer and started working on something while carrying on a discussion. I did not call them on it the few times it happened or it would have embarrassed them to death.


----------



## colingrant

A male acquaintance worked at a reputable investment firm that had a lot of philandering. He would frequent the bar lounge in a building near the job. An attractive female co-worker saw him from across the lounge and sat next to him where a courteous and respectful.conversation ensued.

He said while talking the only thing he could think of is being falsely accused of harrassment so he barely engaged her in the discussion at the bar or at the office even though he wanted to. He said it was obvious to him that she was interested in him but he wasn't going to place himself in a position that could be construed as inappropriate/harassent. The guy wanted to stay employed and feared any and all talks with women.
--------------------------------

On the other side of the coin is me. Late 20's and early 30's cocky and incredibly stupid. I'm embarassed to even associate myself with such behavior but it's my history.

*1)* The office I worked in employed a married woman with large breasts in the accounting department. She was new and hired around Xmas. We came from the same area so we hit it off. She wore tight sweaters and never attempted to downplay them but they were so large it didn't matter what she wore. Nonetheless, she didnt try to hide them and I didn't try to hide my affinity for them.

After wondering for weeks, while talking just normal stuff I pointed at them and asked what size they were as if it was a normal part of a repectable discussion. I was so stupid I didn't realize how out of bounds it was. My question was a sincere one. I actually wanted to know. I didn't even try to hide it or talk low to not be heard. I cringe today just think about this. Plus I disrespected her husband.

Anyway, she kind of gasped as if to say how dare you. But I was sincere as I love large one's and actually expected an answer. After seeing I was serious she said "I'm not going to tell you". I then said can you at least tell me the cup size. She walked away. I thought NOTHING of asking that question until I began hearing about sexual harrassment in the workplace and realized I was 100% guilty of it in this instance. Could have been fired.

*2)* Same office. I used to just kid around a lot with everyone and once I find what gets under a person's skin I'll go overboard a little with teasing them. So, a woman that I presume would be considered to be a feminist somehow picked up from my conversation I guess and surmised that that I was a chauvinist. I wasn't but admittedly I was influenced by traditional gender roles and resposibilities as it relates to the home and family.

Once I saw that she was irritated by my idealogy, I would ask her what time does her husband expect her to be home to have his dinner ready. She would force a smile and just shake her head while walking away. *This is and was unbeliavably cruel of me.* Even though I was just playing around it's still not appropriate. At the very least I'd be considered a bully in today's world even though I'm the furtherest thing from it.

*3) *Two women in accounting used to openly flirt with me and I flirted back just in fun. I had to pass them to go to the office kitchen for coffee, lunch etc. Two of the women sat side by side at desks, so I'd stop to talk with them on occasion while they were sitting at waist level to me standing. I can't recall how things went from small talk and laughing to sexual inferences but it did.

Just the two of them would call me on the office phone system, requesting I come to there department for no reason and and openly (but kiddingly) glance at my crotch (D outline very noticeable in some suit pants) and then up at me and smile. After a while it went from short glances to long ones *(while talking with me)*. They didn't hide it like they were before. I presume it was because I'd laugh and play along. One was married and the other single.

Turns out the single one actually wanted to hookup but I wasn't interested in either quite frankly. It was just some innocent office flirtation that crossed office etiquette lines.


----------

