# Sex and Anthropology



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I often thing on the issue of low sex marriages or women who aren't in the mood.

I wonder if part of this is now women often work, take care of kids, take care of the house, and many other things including things like the finances and financial planning.

With the increased work load and stress, many women's minds don't turn off they are thinking of the next thing that has to be done creating a natural low in libido. Add that many men expect not to wear condoms while married so birth control which has a known side effect of lower libido. 

Then add financial indepence. In the past many women had sex to either get money or a benefit, keep a relationship or such for fear of being penniless. Now many women are earning money and some more than their spouses.

Have we as an evolving society created the perfect storm for no sex in marriage?

I know in the past birth control took my libido to almost 0. So in my 28 year marriage my husband had to use condoms because we identified the problem and my husband would rather use a condom than have a wife who wasn't interested in sex. I also have trouble with my brain shutting off.

We have figured things out together over time and have a robust sex life but it seems many couples never figure things out and everything is just blamed on oh she doesn't find you attractive. I know that was never the case with me and my husband but it's easy to blame attraction level than tackle some of the other things.

TAM just recently had a few posts that let the cat out of the bag about the husbands stitch and why many women may not be keen on sex after a child. That I think is still not widely known even though it still happens.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think you are right in that too many women are trying to do too much. 
So many times here on TAM it is said or implied that a wife/ mum should work full time as well and often she will also end up doing far more than half of the house work and child care as well. 

When my three were small there was no way that I could have adequately cared for my children and kept the home running while working full time. 
I did have various part time jobs over the years purely because we needed the money, but even they took away from my energies I needed/wanted for the family. 

I also wonder if the reason some mums loose a little interest in sex for a while after a baby is nature's way of insuring a recovery time before the next child? Of ensuring that the baby is adequately cared for and fed?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Then add financial indepence.


You mean being an adult?

Some of it is just how you set your life up. If someone disregard things like finances and have a low paying job then you add kids on top of that then yeah you're going to have issues. Not to mention some people have an unrealistic expectation of marriage.

There's also a large segment of the population that has housekeeping and cooking services. So that stress theory falls short for the woman who married a chemical engineer and lives in a million dollar house.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> You mean being an adult?
> 
> Some of it is just how you set your life up. If someone disregard things like finances and have a low paying job then you add kids on top of that then yeah you're going to have issues. Not to mention some people have an unrealistic expectation of marriage.
> 
> There's also a large segment of the population that has housekeeping and cooking services. So that stress theory falls short for the woman who married a chemical engineer and lives in a million dollar house.


You know hiring people can also be stressful. Someone has to manage the help, give directions, make sure the job gets done and pay them.

Your version of being an adult is insulting. There are many stay at home moms who don't make money but are certainly adults.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> There's also a large segment of the population that has housekeeping and cooking services. So that stress theory falls short for the woman who married a chemical engineer and lives in a million dollar house.


Unless the couple has a cleaner that comes daily, and probably follows the children around all day, there will still be plenty for someone else to clean. I have two cleaners coming twice weekly. They have been coming for so long that they know where everything goes so they do tidy up a bit if needed, but cleaners usually don't do that - it's on the homeowners to tidy up before the cleaners get there.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> You know hiring people can also be stressful. Someone has to manage the help, give directions, make sure the job gets done and pay them.
> 
> Your version of being an adult is insulting. There are many stay at home moms who don't make money but are certainly adults.


That's a real stretch to call that stressful. Talk about a first world problem.

You mentioned being independent so I gathered that statement was about single people. That's being an adult.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> I often thing on the issue of low sex marriages or women who aren't in the mood.
> 
> I wonder if part of this is now women often work, take care of kids, take care of the house, and many other things including things like the finances and financial planning.
> 
> ...


I agree entirely... that's why I won't be getting married or have kids in my next life.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's a real stretch to call that stressful. Talk about a first world problem.
> 
> You mentioned being independent so I gathered that statement was about single people. That's being an adult.


No my mention of independence is that if you are an adult that depends on someone else, like a stay at home mom then you might put up with more **** than someone making the money and who separation wouldn't effect in the same way.

Many years ago I down graded my career from engineer to teacher so that I could spend more time with my family and have the summers, holidays with my child. This created a lower income. I did this without thinking. My husband recommended I quit. He was prepared for me to stay home. I didn't but it we were to split now his income exceeds mine but it was a dual choice. 

At the time I never considered that if we split I'd be screwed. I made the decision as a family. I couldn't devote the time and energy my family deserved. But if I was a single lady now I don't know if I'd make the same decision. 

Was it better for my family. Yes I think so. Was it better for me as a single person, no. Would it have been better for me if we divorced 5 years later. No. I'd never get in alimony the money lost over a lifetime of giving up a career.

If our marriage was bad and I was an engineer I might be less apt to have sex due to theoretical bad marriage, if I was a stay at home mom I might be more likely to continue having sex and be a walk away wife 20 years later due to finances.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

bobert said:


> Unless the couple has a cleaner that comes daily, and probably follows the children around all day, there will still be plenty for someone else to clean. I have two cleaners coming twice weekly. They have been coming for so long that they know where everything goes so they do tidy up a bit if needed, but cleaners usually don't do that - it's on the homeowners to tidy up before the cleaners get there.


They still reduce the burden otherwise you wouldn't have them. Pool cleaners don't keep the pool spotless everyday, but they sure do help. Same principle.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I agree entirely... that's why I won't be getting married or have kids in my next life.


yep you got a bum deal. However just because some people die in car accidents it won't stop me from driving.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> No my mention of independence is that if you are an adult that depends on someone else, like a stay at home mom then you might put up with more **** than someone making the money and who separation wouldn't effect in the same way.
> 
> Many years ago I down graded my career from engineer to teacher so that I could spend more time with my family and have the summers, holidays with my child. This created a lower income. I did this without thinking. My husband recommended I quit. He was prepared for me to stay home. I didn't but it we were to split now his income exceeds mine but it was a dual choice.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. I know a lot of guys who made the decision in the opposite direction where they sacrificed their personal time with the family so the mom could stay at home with the kids. Not a good decision for them if they get divorced, but good for the family.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> yep you got a bum deal. However just because some people die in car accidents it won't stop me from driving.


It's not just because of that... I realised - too late - that I wasn't really equipped for marriage and kids. I guess you don't know until you try. But I agree that women these day want it all and marriage life is a lot more complicated than it used to be. I think most men get into marriages with the wrong idea.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

I think the issue is worse when people don't sacrifice and try to live the dream and think they can have the all-star career and also be there for all the kids birthdays, sports, concerts, etc..... You can't serve two masters.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> I think the issue is worse when people don't sacrifice and try to live the dream and think they can have the all-star career and also be there for all the kids birthdays, sports, concerts, etc..... You can't serve two masters.


It can be done, but it requires a high degree of compatibility and enormous effort. Most marriages fall apart, eventually. Mine did.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> It's not just because of that... I realised - too late - that I wasn't really equipped for marriage and kids. I guess you don't know until you try. But I agree that women these day want it all and marriage life is a lot more complicated than it used to be. I think most men get into marriages with the wrong idea.


I bet a lot of parents feel like that but would never say that in public or even to themselves. All you hear is how it's work but it's all worth it, blah blah blah. Then you see a post on here where the kid is writing in his journal about killing his dad.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> It can be done, but it requires a high degree of compatibility and enormous effort. Most marriages fall apart, eventually. Mine did.


I'm not sure that it can be done. Not really, not in the sense of 'giving the best of yourself fully' to both of the masters.

Family & Job will always collide to some extent because they both thrive on a precious scarce commodity - time. Both masters are demanding of time, and eventually one will dislike the other. Probably the best chance for success is to pick one of the masters and set the expectations for the other (which of course means really serving only 1 Master fully). I haven't seen often that a wife or husband is ok with being second place to the job but I'm sure it happens a lot. Plus IMHO putting the job first is a risky move re: workplace affairs & wandering spouses.

Like others, I also have declined advancement at work when the potential for "Master/Master Conflict" (I just made a new diagnosis!) became too high.

Interesting topic this thread.

At one point in life I held a 'fully equal in all things" approach to marriage & husband/wife relationships.
Most recently I learned (almost the hard way) how that view can be fatal to a traditional marriage.

So Yes, I agree with @Anastasia6 that the dynamics of relationships. including sex & intimacy are being affected by changes in social norms.
Whether it's for better or worse for marriages and/or society could be quite subjective and polarizing.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> No my mention of independence is that if you are an adult that depends on someone else, like a stay at home mom then you might put up with more **** than someone making the money and who separation wouldn't effect in the same way.
> 
> Many years ago I down graded my career from engineer to teacher so that I could spend more time with my family and have the summers, holidays with my child. This created a lower income. I did this without thinking. My husband recommended I quit. He was prepared for me to stay home. I didn't but it we were to split now his income exceeds mine but it was a dual choice.
> 
> ...


face it, in marriages where there are kids and TWO people with careers, one of those careers has to suffer.
Like what happens when both of you have to travel for work?
Or what happens when its 5 PM, there is some late night meeting, your spouse is traveling, and you HAVE TO pick up your kids from afterschool before 5:30? not a second later1

so yeah, one of the two is going to end up going farther in their career. And end up with a higher salary. and a higher 401K plan.

That is all fine right up until one of them bails, and divorces, and leaves that stay at home spouse all alone. The stay at home spouse ends up feeling like a schmuck

it is hard enough to keep in a profession as we age. companies are looking to replace you with cheaper and more current workers. Add in leave of absence, and not being able to travel for work....and its a double hit to your career.

and nowadays, the person staying at home is quite likely to be the man.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I often thing on the issue of low sex marriages or women who aren't in the mood.
> 
> I wonder if part of this is now women often work, take care of kids, take care of the house, and many other things including things like the finances and financial planning.
> 
> ...



I also wonder if it's the same guys, or type of guys, that women are turning off sex too. I've personally never had a girlfriend or wife that didn't have a high libido (and they've been on the pill many times), mostly higher than my own. I don't know what financial independence would have to do with one's libido, but maybe it has some weird connection that I am not aware of. There's a million different ways for birth control...has never been an issue in my relationships; my wife has the thing that last for five years, although it's been in for like 7 already.

You are correct about women having a hard time shutting down outside stimuli to really enjoy sex, but again, there's a million different things that the guy and girl can do to curb that, and sometimes, it won't get curbed, in which you just try again next time; that's life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Al_Bundy said:


> They still reduce the burden otherwise you wouldn't have them. Pool cleaners don't keep the pool spotless everyday, but they sure do help. Same principle.


I dont think you realize how many mums never have cleaners or any sort of home help. None of my friends did, nor did I. We just got on with it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> I'm not sure that it can be done. Not really, not in the sense of 'giving the best of yourself fully' to both of the masters.
> 
> Family & Job will always collide to some extent because they both thrive on a precious scarce commodity - time. Both masters are demanding of time, and eventually one will dislike the other. Probably the best chance for success is to pick one of the masters and set the expectations for the other (which of course means really serving only 1 Master fully). I haven't seen often that a wife or husband is ok with being second place to the job but I'm sure it happens a lot. Plus IMHO putting the job first is a risky move re: workplace affairs & wandering spouses.
> 
> ...


Not just time but emotional and physical energy. 
I also think that families these days think they must have all these luxuries that they just dont need. When my children were young it was far more important to us to have me mostly at home rather than have holidays abroad, 2 cars, designer clothes, etc.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> I agree entirely... that's why I won't be getting married or have kids in my next life.


That's part of why I didn't in this life. Not sorry.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Honestly, I think being overwhelmed with kids pulling on you is a big part of it, but it's also that over time, familiarity does breed contempt. You very often no longer think of your mate like you once did, with infinite hope and embueing him with your own ideals that he won't live up to, that no one likely will live up to, and that turns off the desire sometimes. Many men will have sex whether they are mad or sad or even like someone or not a lot of times. That is not in general true for women. They need to feel the love to feel the desire. When the love bubble is burst, there goes sex for a lot of women. They attach feelings to it. They don't feel love because they have sex. They feel like having sex because they feel love in other ways. Men, at least according to a lot of TAM regulars, don't feel love unless they're getting sex. One, that's not love of the person, that's just loving sex, and that's not easy to accept for a lot of women. They don't want to just be the receptacle. So they lose desire for that guy. On top of that, yes, the children come first in their hearts, and so they should.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DBTR I agree with a lot of what you said. I will say in my marriage my child does not come first in my heart. I love her but my sole hope for her is to grow up, be independent and bond with another human. So my strongest bond is with my husband because I expect him to stay til death.

That being said she is most likely the only one that could hurt/break our bond. I can't see it happening but if we disagreed extremely within that context it could. Fortunately we've rarely disagreed with what we should do with her on things that matter.

ETA: If I were married to one of the men who treat me like a separate entity. Those who have separate bank accounts and pre-nups and such like that. Well then my child would come first because it would be obvious that the hubby doesn't plan on til death. My husband has shown over and over that we are a team.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> They still reduce the burden otherwise you wouldn't have them. Pool cleaners don't keep the pool spotless everyday, but they sure do help. Same principle.


Sure, they can reduce the workload but not nearly as much as you may think. At least not when your home has 7 people and 4 pets in it. There is still _plenty_ of stress.

Also, the cleaners do several tasks that wouldn't get done otherwise so that's not really reducing the workload, since it wouldn't have been done anyway.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> DBTR I agree with a lot of what you said. I will say in my marriage my child does not come first in my heart. I love her but my sole hope for her is to grow up, be independent and bond with another human. So my strongest bond is with my husband because I expect him to stay til death.
> 
> That being said she is most likely the only one that could hurt/break our bond. I can't see it happening but if we disagreed extremely within that context it could. Fortunately we've rarely disagreed with what we should do with her on things that matter.
> 
> ETA: If I were married to one of the men who treat me like a separate entity. Those who have separate bank accounts and pre-nups and such like that. Well then my child would come first because it would be obvious that the hubby doesn't plan on til death. My husband has shown over and over that we are a team.


Love your last paragraph. Agree 100%. Wouldn't marry a man like that anyway.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m not sure how old y’all are, but I grew up in the 70s and was a young adult in the 80s.

During what they called the Women’s Lib Movement, women claimed the reason they were so stressed and had low desire and no time for sex was because they were overworked and stressed with kids in the home and were sick of dealing with kid stuff all day and needed to get out and be around other adults. 

Mackenzie Bezos and Melinda Gates likely had all the childcare and housekeeping help in the world, and yet they packed up and left taking billions in spousal support with them. 

Do you suppose they were having high octane sex with with their husbands night after night due to the financially secure and stress free life??? 

No, I have the feeling they were just as LD for their ex’s and I bet ol’ Jeff and Bill were whining about their wives not touching them as much as any of the sad sacks here. 

Some things are simply universal regardless of the underlying lifestyle. People get tired of each other and lose interest and passion for each other over time.

Women will worry and stress and feel overwhelmed regardless of what their life circumstances are. 

And as long as the house isn’t on fire and no one is bleeding to death or starving to death, men will watch TV, go golfing and fishing and will complain about the government and not really worry or get stressed out about much. 

Men will never be able to take the stress load off of women because they aren’t women themselves. They just don’t understand the anxiety. 

A man will never lay awake nights worrying of the kitchen counter backsplash will match well enough with the living room carpet.

And a woman will never feel a man truly has her back and will take the stress off of her because he’s not laying awake all night worrying about the backsplash also.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure how old y’all are, but I grew up in the 70s and was a young adult in the 80s.
> 
> During what they called the Women’s Lib Movement, women claimed the reason they were so stressed and had low desire and no time for sex was because they were overworked and stressed with kids in the home and were sick of dealing with kid stuff all day and needed to get out and be around other adults.
> 
> ...


Well shoot. This recaps reality nicely. Well said. And I'm being serious. This is real life. 👍👍


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

My opinions...albeit not popular....

I believe the reason why it's very hard, is that we as a species, are not "wired" to be monogamous.. even the small percentage of primates that are classified as monogamous, its not by choice...If all creatures decided to start practicing monogamy, is highly likely that they would become extinct in a single generation....So how can we think we are so omnipotent to think we can subvert this??

As women have gotten more independent and as people have gotten more wealthy, the necessity to stay is falling sharply... We can come up with all the excuses in the world, but the reality is we are just fighting what is a natural need to "move on", so that the species can thrive, flourish and be genetically diverse...It's really an amazing principle, when you stop and think about it....

Stop for a minute and think about the first time you had sex with either your h/w/gf/bf.....It was usually awesome and you didn't stop thinking about it until the next time...If everything is the same, then why is it so much less exhilarating after the 100th time? You still love that person, in fact, you may even love them all that much more.. But as enjoyable as it is, its not usually the same as when it was "strange" as they say....

IMO, most monogamous sex among humans probably has an eventual expiration date...The problem is most of us don't want to just live life like this, it's socially frowned upon, although not surprisingly, a lot of people actually do(go from one man/woman to another) manage to live their lives in this fashion...I had an uncle that did, and he was very happy....

A lot of men will disagree with this concept, but it's not because they don't have that need "in them", it's just that for them sex is elusive and difficult to find.. Some may be lucky to find one woman, so they believe that monogamy is the best way...They are only protecting a sure thing and suppressing that inner drive.....If they had a lot of options, then who knows??

It doesn't mean we have to throw our hands up and accept that its going to go a little downhill from the beginning to when its time you had enough....The best bet then is if you value a long term sexual experience, then you better make absolutely 100% sure that the partner you selected is extremely sexually attractive and compatible ...Without that, then you are just fighting a natural urge that is working against you...


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure how old y’all are, but I grew up in the 70s and was a young adult in the 80s.
> 
> During what they called the Women’s Lib Movement, women claimed the reason they were so stressed and had low desire and no time for sex was because they were overworked and stressed with kids in the home and were sick of dealing with kid stuff all day and needed to get out and be around other adults.
> 
> ...



Or maybe they chose each other from the beginning without paying any attention to sexual attraction/ compatibility??

Oh, and I can almost bet that once the stars in her eyes clear and the dollar signs in her bank account become old hat, that busty little hottie Bezos is running around with will grow very weary of effing him....


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> Or maybe they chose each other from the beginning without paying any attention to sexual attraction/ compatibility??
> 
> Oh, and I can almost bet that once the stars in her eyes clear and the dollar signs in her bank account become old hat, that busty little hottie Bezos is running around with will grow very weary of effing him....


And he'll pay her off, and move to the next hottie. He won't miss any of the payoff. So what's your point?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> But is that really better? If you're saying that women put up with being treated badly and were forced to have sex in exchange for money (or room and board), that situation is better? (I don't think you're meaning to say that, I'm just offering a perspective on what you're asking)
> 
> Perhaps instead of a "perfect storm" of no sex in marriage, what women no longer having to trade unsatisfying sex for room and board and bad treatment is doing is forcing women to communicate more clearly what they want in bed AND forcing men to actually care about their wives' feelings and happiness where they didn't before?
> 
> Or could it be that this has always been a problem, it's just we talk about it now, whereas before (1950s) men just had affairs and didn't care about sex with their wives? Their wives couldn't leave them, they had no money. So men were having great sex with very young women and had live-in housekeepers and nannies at home who took sole responsibility for the house and the children. Still not sure that was better. Certainly not for women.


I'm in no way saying it's better. I'm saying in the old days a man could bring home some money and he might get sex because the woman didn't have other options. If she's working and bringing home a paycheck she can opt out of sex which might end the marriage or she can expect more than a paycheck in exchange for sex like an actual emotional connection. But that would reduce sex for the saps who think otherwise.

And not in response to you but others....

Both Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos cheated on their wives. That is why they are divorced.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And he'll pay her off, and move to the next hottie. He won't miss any of the payoff. So what's your point?


OS said

"Some things are simply universal regardless of the underlying lifestyle. *People get tired of each other and lose interest and passion for each other over time*."

Which just clearly falls in line with a lot of what I stated..In other words, i agree with his post..

.My reasons may be less obtuse, but the end result the same...

What is your point, other than to suggest the brutally obvious that rich men better deal women daily??


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> But is that really better? If you're saying that women put up with being treated badly and were forced to have sex in exchange for money (or room and board), that situation is better? (I don't think you're meaning to say that, I'm just offering a perspective on what you're asking)
> 
> Perhaps instead of a "perfect storm" of no sex in marriage, what women no longer having to trade unsatisfying sex for room and board and bad treatment is doing is forcing women to communicate more clearly what they want in bed AND forcing men to actually care about their wives' feelings and happiness where they didn't before?
> 
> Or could it be that this has always been a problem, it's just we talk about it now, whereas before (1950s) men just had affairs and didn't care about sex with their wives? Their wives couldn't leave them, they had no money. So men were having great sex with very young women and had live-in housekeepers and nannies at home who took sole responsibility for the house and the children. Still not sure that was better. Certainly not for women.


My dad was a teen in the 1950s and he had multiple affairs on my mom. My mom actually had a job that she was offered to get more responsibility and eventually take over because the owner was getting older and had no children. But my dad wanted her to quit and stay home. She shouldn't have but did. I am firmly convinced he did that to 'trap' her at home and keep her from being independent. Then 20 years later he left her for a younger woman by 17 years. Then complained about alimony. She would have been so better off taking over the small insurance firm. She may even have left him eventually. But she didn't she wanted to be a 'good wife and mother' She got ****ed.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> OS said
> 
> "Some things are simply universal regardless of the underlying lifestyle. *People get tired of each other and lose interest and passion for each other over time*."
> 
> ...


My point is as I said, what was your point about Bezos and others.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is SO common. You see it ALL the time. That's why when a man asked me to marry him and said I would be expected to stay home, I RAN. Fast. Never spoke to him again. There's a reason it's called the "mother in law suite." No one ever wants total control over you for a good reason.


Oh I guess I didn't learn my lesson because when my husband told me to quite engineering I agreed. I wanted to do better for my family. He now makes 2.5 times what I do and I can't just go back to engineering. I never thought about it much at all until recently as we go to retire and being on TAM. As a team this was a good choice and we will still retire before 62. I may even be a housewife at some time before he retires. It will work fine. 

HOWEVER if we divorced if could go poorly. I do the finances and due to matching we have always maxed his 401k before mine cause it made sense but of course if we divorced it would look like I"m taking his retirement and such. When in reality we could have split the contributions but we would have lost 50% on what we didn't put in his.

I could have easily been a stay at home mom. I could have easily been in a bad position if I found myself in a terrible relationship. I'm fortunate. I didn't. I've always been driven to work. While I make less now I still could live on it. My daughter would have been better off if I'd stayed home. But maybe in the back of my head I let my mom's situation influence me a little. I still work tons but had family time in the summer and holidays. It was a balance. Engineering was work all the time all year.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Back to the subject though. Due to our team atmosphere we have plenty of sex. But my husband doesn't expect me to do it all. I appreciate that he listens and does his share and many times more than his share. The chore play doesn't get sex is only partially true. If you are worn out and your partner thinks just cause they have a penis they don't have to cook that isn't attractive. Or the down playing of someone's job because they make less money. Isn't it nice that the less money argument works in favor of the sex that doesn't get $0.76 on the dollar.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Yeah, but @Anastasia6, it sounds like you were very careful when you chose your husband and it's highly unlikely he's going to do something like that to you. Back in the old days when women had no choice and weren't able to work, most women married very young (to get out of their parent's house, too). They weren't really mature enough to make a reasoned decision. My husband makes 3-4 times what I make. My son and I can definitely live on what I make should something go wrong, but our money is so intertwined it would be really easy for him to leave me with nothing and I'd never be able to retire. I don't think he would do that though, even if our marriage fell apart, because he's never in 17 years given me any reason to believe he'd do that. There's risk in everything, and SO much risk in trust. We're all doing the best we can, and it sounds like you're doing just fine.


Oh thank you. I do agree I'm doing fine and my husband would never do that. I did choose carefully. I choose quickly but carefully. Unfortunately I don't think many people actually choose carefully when marrying. I shudder though when people date for like 6 years and get married. Others call that being careful. I say it means you shouldn't be together. If you don't know before 6 years then the answer is no.

We also get the Brad pitt's here. date for 10 years then marry then 2 years later they are here divorcing. together 12 married 2. together 8 married 1 and such see it so much here.

When you've been together so long that you have to start with been together..... married.... then it's already in doubt. That's just me. But too many see a dealbreak and ignore it. So they are together for 10 years with someone who has this one thing or a couple of things or I mostly like them and don't want to lose them.....

If you aren't madly wildly in love with me, see no dealbreakers and want to lock it down. Then PASS. I did a lot of passing when younger. I have many proposals before my husband. So once I got to the one I wanted I knew it. Knew it fast and then looked hard for dealbreakers. Married and became flexible in all things not dealbreakers and expressive in the ones that are.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I dont think you realize how many mums never have cleaners or any sort of home help. None of my friends did, nor did I. We just got on with it.


we both worked, and getting cleaners in once a week was pretty essential. otherwise we would both kiss off cleaning, and things just got groaty after a couple of weeks.

if you BOTH work, you can afford cleaners. we used to pay something like $65 a week.
even today, it is only $110.

hey guys, instead of buying her something expensive for valentines day, get her a cleaning crew once a week


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Love your last paragraph. Agree 100%. Wouldn't marry a man like that anyway.


A lot of women are too inexperienced for naive enough to know who they married for some time.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not sure how old y’all are, but I grew up in the 70s and was a young adult in the 80s.
> 
> During what they called the Women’s Lib Movement, women claimed the reason they were so stressed and had low desire and no time for sex was because they were overworked and stressed with kids in the home and were sick of dealing with kid stuff all day and needed to get out and be around other adults.
> 
> ...


It's a simple fact that most women are more low drive than most men anyway. Not all and it can fluctuate.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> A lot of women are too inexperienced for naive enough to know who they married for some time.


Yes and some men and women try to hide their true nature so the other person doesn't see it. However, I think if you look hard you can see it in the little things.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Or maybe they chose each other from the beginning without paying any attention to sexual attraction/ compatibility??
> 
> Oh, and I can almost bet that once the stars in her eyes clear and the dollar signs in her bank account become old hat, that busty little hottie Bezos is running around with will grow very weary of effing him....


Most people are pretty lusty when they first meet and sadly part of that is because they are assuming the other person is perhaps more wonderful than they actually are and that they are their dream boat that only lives in their head.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

bobert said:


> Sure, they can reduce the workload but not nearly as much as you may think. At least not when your home has 7 people and 4 pets in it. There is still _plenty_ of stress.
> 
> Also, the cleaners do several tasks that wouldn't get done otherwise so that's not really reducing the workload, since it wouldn't have been done anyway.


I don't disagree, but if someone piles on a heavy load then turns around and complains about said load that was self imposed..........well. 

Not saying you specifically are complaining but in general I see that a lot where the wound is self inflicted.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes and some men and women try to hide their true nature so the other person doesn't see it. However, I think if you look hard you can see it in the little things.


Love is blind for some.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Love is blind for some.


to me that isn't love it's stupidity or hopium. Both are bad.

If you look at your spouse objectively you can choose to accept them. That is a great gift to accept someone as they are warts and all. But it is also good for you because you see the things you can't accept as well which means if you can't accept your spouse don't make them your spouse. My spouse is far from perfect but he's PERFECT for ME.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> we both worked, and getting cleaners in once a week was pretty essential. otherwise we would both kiss off cleaning, and things just got groaty after a couple of weeks.
> 
> if you BOTH work, you can afford cleaners. we used to pay something like $65 a week.
> even today, it is only $110.
> ...


It just wasn't common here when I had my children in the 70's, even among those where both worked. They just did everything between them. 
When I was working full time (with a long commute) before I had my first child we spent sat morning doing the chores together.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> to me that isn't love it's stupidity or hopium. Both are bad.
> 
> If you look at your spouse objectively you can choose to accept them. That is a great gift to accept someone as they are warts and all. But it is also good for you because you see the things you can't accept as well which means if you can't accept your spouse don't make them your spouse. My spouse is far from perfect but he's PERFECT for ME.


It's idealism and hopium. I am currently going through it with my oldest friend who was married for more than two decades and still couldn't believe how bad he was even though he came right out and told her in plain English. She can't conceive of someone being that way because she is not that way. She still wants to believe that people are basically good and it is only misfortune that might cause someone to be an a hole and that it is not irreversible. It's how she was brought up to believe just like a religion. She also didn't believe that if you're good that bad things can happen to you. She's a solid good-hearted person who just can't conceive of it and now she's in therapy trying to figure out how she ignored it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That requires a lot of maturity. You have to be able to see past your butterflies in your stomach and romantic notions and see someone for truly what they are. Younger people get swept up. And honestly, older people do that sometimes too, because maturity really isn’t always about age, is it? I’m just glad I lived in a time when I could choose to say no to the outwardly “perfect” man my friends and family would have chosen and find someone who was a good person inside and who loved me for me. And you’re also right that when you know, you know.


As pragmatic as I am on here, I was never able to be very pragmatic at love. It's how you are wired and your emotions and your whole life and your expectations.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> ...


I agree. Many people get swept up. I love love. I married my husband 5 weeks after our 1st date and we were engaged 4 weeks after our first date. But I didn't just ignore everything. I saw him. I'm not ashamed to admit that I also put him to a few tests to see his character. After our first date I knew I wanted to marry this man. So I had to be sure of his character before moving forward. 

I do think all people are capable of looking pragmatically at others (especially if they wait). But it's the disney princess syndrome right? It has to be all this ******** and grand sweeping gestures. If you haven't read enough of my threads for me it's the coffee. Every day my husband makes me coffee and bring it to me where ever I am be that still in bed or at work (I work at home). That is worth way more than a dozen over priced roses on some random day. It takes way more thought and effort than a phone call or internet clicks. 

BTW I won't get roses tonight. I might not even get a phone call (he's out of town on business and yes he chose the date for the trip). But I won't be mad. Cause Wednesday morning when he's back there will be coffee. (and sex).


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Great topic!!



Anastasia6 said:


> Have we as an evolving society created the perfect storm for no sex in marriage?



I think we're seeing the results of a lot of change in a short time. Rephrasing what you said, women no longer have to earn their livelihood on their backs (whether in marriage or not). 

The changes in western culture, and specifically the changes brought on by women's financial independence, have happened so fast that many people haven't had a chance to adapt. I feel sexual desire is now a choice for most women in western culture. We get to choose who, when, and how we have sex. We do not have to have sex out of obligation or necessity. On one hand, this is wonderful for women. On the other hand, it becomes an issue if those involved in the relationship are unaware of each other's expectations. 

Here's an example of a woman's expectation that is still evolving:. It used to be that women were expected to "look good for their man" to keep him sexually interested in her. The same was not expected of men because he's the bread winner and that's all that was expected of him to get her to have sex. Now many women expect their spouse to look good for her to keep her interested in sex. This one is slow to catch on.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You'd better delete where you quoted my post. I'd hate for your post to be deleted because of it.


Why would it get her post deleted. This is my thread and as such I declare not a thread jack or offensive


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> Why would it get her post deleted. This is my thread and as such I declare not a thread jack or offensive


Just the usual histrionics. Sorry, too good an opportunity to use that word in this context.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lila said:


> I think we're seeing the results of a lot of change in a short time. Rephrasing what you said, women no longer have to earn their livelihood on their backs (whether in marriage or not).


If there is an intrinsic difference in sex drive between the genders, the last half-century may finally be the time first time in human history where it was allowed to be expressed.

If the pill allowed women to have sex whenever they desired, then perhaps growing economic parity allowed them to not have it when they didn't.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Lila said:


> Great topic!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly you expect a woman to earn a paycheck the old rules change don't they? But I don't think it is just about the earning. I think it is also about the possibility to earn. The societal expectation of earnings which means the internal dialog is slightly different as well. We are no longer encouraged to allow a husband to beat us, drink or rape us the mantra is leave him if he's like that. 

We still see women and men here in bad marriages and bad situations. It hasn't cured everything but it is moving the goal posts on what does the sexual relationship looks like within a marriage.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I did a lot of passing when younger. I have many proposals before my husband.


Correct me if I'm wrong but as you we're passing you also weren't collecting kids along the way. So not only were you waiting for the right guy to commit to, but when he showed up you were ready. You didn't start things off with a bunch of extra stress and complications.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> If there is an intrinsic difference in sex drive between the genders, the last half-century may finally be the time first time in human history where it was allowed to be expressed.


That is so true and in more ways than I think you are implying.

I think we have seen glimpses in the past but this is like the age where women can demand equal orgasms. We saw the free love in the past but those were long term relationships were they. 

Women have been expected to have low desire sex for ages and we still see it here on TAM. 

I just want to barf when a man says oh your wife has had surgery down there well she can use her mouth. I'm not against oral but if I had surgery down there I'd be lying in bed expecting my husband to bring me dinner and commiserate with me. Not trying to get me to stick his penis in my mouth. EWWW. And I say that as a person who loves her husband and has frequent sex with him.

And while maybe women are lower desire overall. I think mostly we see across the board many men don't understand what makes us horny. We keep seeing men come on with platitudes like work out. Newsflash we are all different the answer isn't the same for each woman and it isn't even the same for each woman through out her whole life.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but as you we're passing you also weren't collecting kids along the way. So not only were you waiting for the right guy to commit to, but when he showed up you were ready. You didn't start things off with a bunch of extra stress and complications.


You are correct I didn't screw things up by allowing this guy or that to impregnant me and then marry him because I was pregnant. My marriage has had plenty of stress and extra complications.

Just to name a few.
My husbands car insurance was cancelled while we were away getting married because he didn't pay the bill.
Shortly after we got married (6 months) I quit my job and moved home for a month to help raise/obtain my nephew from child services.
When we tried to buy our first home we found multiple accounts we had to pay off from my husbands old life to the tune of about $8k back when we weren't making very much.
IT also effected trying to finance the house.
I lost a couple thousand gambling back when a couple thousand was a lot of money.
Wow it's too much to type that is just the first 3 years or so....
some highlights. MIL lives with us. MIL (other) lived with us. Nephew (different one) lived with us. Childs friend lived with us. 
Death of a parent.
Illness
Weight gain
having a child
career change

So it hasn't just been roses. But we get by just fine because we choose to.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I would contend I'd still be with my husband if I had a child. And we still would be fine. I married him because that's who he is.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> If there is an intrinsic difference in sex drive between the genders, the last half-century may finally be the time first time in human history where it was allowed to be expressed.
> 
> If the pill allowed women to have sex whenever they desired, then perhaps growing economic parity allowed them to not have it when they didn't.


I agree and it's still evolving. See "women who out earn their partners". 😯. Another discussion entirely.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

While it doesn't effect all women the same the pill has one side effect that does effect many woman. It often causes depression and lower libido. I felt it also gave me lower sexual enjoyment.

I think this often overlooked. It is also only recently (last couple decades or so) that it was just accepted that every woman ever was going to go on the pill.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lila said:


> I agree and it's still evolving. See "women who out earn their partners". 😯. Another discussion entirely.


I suppose we may soon get to a world where the amount of sex had is largely controlled by the women. I say with no rancor that when this happens, it will probably be less than it was before, but overall more desired by all parties involved.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> We still see women and men here in bad marriages and bad situations. It hasn't cured everything but it is moving the goal posts on what does the sexual relationship looks like within a marriage.



Anastasia what do you mean by "It hasn't cured everything but it is moving the goal posts on what does the sexual relationship looks like within a marriage."?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anastasia6 said:


> I think this often overlooked. It is also only recently (last couple decades or so) that it was just accepted that every woman ever was going to go on the pill.


It didn't take too many months for us to figure that out too. Vasectomy to the rescue - the (nearly) perfect solution, if only most men weren't so squeamish about their testicles.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Cletus said:


> I suppose we may soon get to a world where the amount of sex had is largely controlled by the women. I say with no rancor that when this happens, it will probably be less than it was before, but overall more desired by all parties involved.


In many cases the women already control sex. Whether by accident or not.

I know I love my husband but I"ve never had sex just because he wanted to. Until I joined TAM it never even occured to me to be honest. We had sex many times when he wanted but if I wasn't feeling it he wouldn't want me to just do it. There have also been times when I wanted it and he's not up for it. I'm fine with that.

I guess if I lost my libido in menopause or something I would certainly want to still please him but I like sex for sex sake and pleasure. I am not sure how I feel about this just do it attitude many people have. I think of sex like dessert to be enjoyed to be reveled in. 

I do think that as you see the emergence of women as money makers that family sizes often shrink. the western world already has lower numbers. That might be good to slow down world population numbers.

Of course if we ever get to where some of the men want to go. She earns her own money separate from mine and I don't have to bond or link or anything with her...... You might see women choosing only to have children and not sex with many men. I mean if we want to reduce our relationships down to equal money and nothing shared just in case we break up later than really for many women they can just use a vibrator. Not me cause it doesn't really do much for me. But I can say if my husband dies, there are so many that I just couldn't bond too.. such terrible attitudes.. and I'm no spring chicken. Probably wouldn't be asked out anyway cause I'm over what is it now 18 or 23 I can't remember what age all the 50+ year old divorcee's are dating now.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Lila said:


> Anastasia what do you mean by "It hasn't cured everything but it is moving the goal posts on what does the sexual relationship looks like within a marriage."?


I mean while women now have a greater potential to live lives that don't put them in vulnerable positions... we still see stay at home moms with no access to bank accounts or money. Literally trapped in a marriage. We still see those who are in abusive relationships and don't have the means or the ability (both internally and externally) to escape. And that's here in america. in other places there isn't that ability to just go out and get a job. 

Back in the day the stay at home often had no education. Now we see plenty of stay at homes with bachelors. Sure they can't go out and knock down 60k with a divorce (or most can't) but they aren't trapped at minimum wage either.

There is just more opportunity. More choices. some may be tough choices. I think its is minimalMe that left while she had cancer and no money but she made it and she is happy she left.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oh and @Lila I also mean that the goal posts are moving toward sexual freedom and sharing. But there are plenty of women who work, take care of the kids, house and other things and then the husband still expects some lame as him only sex because he has a job. 

While wifey could inform him that she isn't doing this 1950's version plus getting a paycheck they often times don't. Many still seem trapped in the old mind set that if man work woman have sex. We see it all over these boards. What if woman and man work? I think they should still have sex. But I think it should be because they both have fantastic engaging sex. Not sex cause man work. Not one say sex where she doesn't orgasm and he doesn't even know, think about it or care. 

I love the ones that just assume she is because well he did.

In the new age perhaps those women will demand more....


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I suppose we may soon get to a world where the amount of sex had is largely controlled by the women. I say with no rancor that when this happens, it will probably be less than it was before, but overall more desired by all parties involved.


I'm not sure it's going to be a worldwide thing but certainly could happen in western cultures.

I think there is good and bad to all change. We are currently on a super steep learning curve. I may be thinking rainbows and unicorns but am hopeful it'll level out soon so that everyone can get laid often and well 😁


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Both Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos cheated on their wives. That is why they are divorced.


They divorced because they wanted to and they could. 

And they became the richest single women in the world for doing so.

I’m sure the girls were already done with them and had already lost interest in them long before the news of them cheating went public and that was simply their excuse to leave with their billions and start their new lives.

I’d also bet the farm that both ladies had their share of hunky bodyguards, pool boys and international playboys as well. 

They probably hadn’t touched ol’ Jeff and Bill in years, but I doubt they were at home dutifully cooking and cleaning and tending to the kids.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> They divorced because they wanted to and they could.
> 
> And they became the richest single women in the world for doing so.
> 
> ...


Wow so you are blaming the women whenyou have no idea but hey it's got to be their fault.

I don't suppose you know that Bill gates had a girlfriend from college that he made marrying his wife agree to allow him days alone with the old girl their whole marriage.

sounds like a healthy relationship right. I'm sure it was all Mrs. Gates fault.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Lila said:


> I'm not sure it's going to be a worldwide thing but certainly could happen in western cultures.
> 
> I think there is good and bad to all change. We are currently on a super steep learning curve. I may be thinking rainbows and unicorns but am hopeful it'll level out soon so that everyone can get laid often and well 😁


Is it really going to change the basics of hot/successful guys get hot women and vice versa? I don't see anyone from those groups complaining, although I do see less and less people trying to be in those groups. Perhaps that's the problem.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> Is it really going to change the basics of hot/successful guys get hot women and vice versa? I don't see anyone from those groups complaining, although I do see less and less people trying to be in those groups. Perhaps that's the problem.





Al_Bundy said:


> Is it really going to change the basics of hot/successful guys get hot women and vice versa? I don't see anyone from those groups complaining, although I do see less and less people trying to be in those groups. Perhaps that's the problem.


So you are under the impression that hot successful guys get hot successful girls and they always have lots of sex?

You do realize that you can have sex with ugly people and you can be really hot and not want sex or be depressed or have an illness or want an orgasm and not want sex if you regularly don't get orgasms or have a selfish lover as a partner?

Do you really think hotness matters that much ?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

They are going to have the most options. Since when has that become some crazy concept?


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> My dad was a teen in the 1950s and he had multiple affairs on my mom. My mom actually had a job that she was offered to get more responsibility and eventually take over because the owner was getting older and had no children. But my dad wanted her to quit and stay home. She shouldn't have but did. *I am firmly convinced he did that to 'trap' her at home and keep her from being independent. Then 20 years later he left her for a younger woman by 17 years. Then complained about alimony.* She would have been so better off taking over the small insurance firm. She may even have left him eventually. But she didn't she wanted to be a 'good wife and mother' She got ****ed.


I'm not going to say you're wrong, but if he did that to trap her, all he did was trap himself. Financially, maybe she would have been better off taking over that insurance firm, but if he is paying her alimony, then he would also have been better off if she had done that. Not a very good trap if it was one.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> They are going to have the most options. Since when has that become some crazy concept?


Absolutely. But you make it seem like that automatically means sex (what the thread was kind of about).

I know way more attractive people than me that have sex way less. I think there is so much more about sex than being attractive especially if you are married. My husband has topped 300 pounds during our marriage (not currently). I had more sex with him then when he was running Triathalons at 180.

Very Important ETA:
It wasn't about the weight.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Wow so you are blaming the women whenyou have no idea but hey it's got to be their fault.
> 
> I don't suppose you know that Bill gates had a girlfriend from college that he made marrying his wife agree to allow him days alone with the old girl their whole marriage.
> 
> sounds like a healthy relationship right. I'm sure it was all Mrs. Gates fault.


I’m not blaming them at all.

I’m saying this is how it is from the poorest of people to the richest.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Enigma32 said:


> I'm not going to say you're wrong, but if he did that to trap her, all he did was trap himself. Financially, maybe she would have been better off taking over that insurance firm, but if he is paying her alimony, then he would also have been better off if she had done that. Not a very good trap if it was one.


Oh it worked fine for him. He got a wife appliance for 20+ years. Then married someone 17 years younger.

When she had that opportunity she was young and pretty. 

But hey he also wined and dined her and led her to believe he made more money than he did when he asked her to marry.

Those were the good old days as they say. So he trapped a woman got a wife appliance and my mom did a bang up job. She kept a great house. She was a great cook did all the household chores, did the finances, earned money on the side, scrimped and made everything count. Raise us kids, did room mother, girl scouts, sports and education. In return she was a 50+ year old woman with no experience, her looks were shot and not shortly after her health. 

Did she do some of it to herself. Yep. I didn't say it was only his fault. But yes I think he didn't want her getting independent because my mom was the type that if she had that insurance job, when she discovered the cheating she would have kicked him to the curb. Instead due to the opportunity passed, a move and kids she stayed. 

I wish she had found it in her to leave earlier but that said. I worked 60 hours a week as a high schooler to eat and stuff. I don't regret it but I know why she didn't leave as well.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> Is it really going to change the basics of hot/successful guys get hot women and vice versa? I don't see anyone from those groups complaining, although I do see less and less people trying to be in those groups. Perhaps that's the problem.


Do you truly believe that hot people stay sexually attracted to each other throughout their relationship just because they are hot?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you are under the impression that hot successful guys get hot successful girls and they always have lots of sex?
> 
> You do realize that you can have sex with ugly people and you can be really hot and not want sex or be depressed or have an illness or want an orgasm and not want sex if you regularly don't get orgasms or have a selfish lover as a partner?
> 
> Do you really think hotness matters that much ?


Why would a hot person have sex with an ugly person? I'm confused


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I know way more attractive people than me that have sex way less.


That's a personal choice on their part. The options would still be there whether they take part or not. 

I think physical attraction kicks it off, sure there's more beyond that. Was your husband over 3 bills when you met? Did you date any guys that weight when you were single?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Absolutely. But you make it seem like that automatically means sex (what the thread was kind of about).
> 
> I know way more attractive people than me that have sex way less. I think there is so much more about sex than being attractive especially if you are married. My husband has topped 300 pounds during our marriage (not currently). I had more sex with him then when he was running Triathalons at 180.
> 
> It was about the weight.


At least you are honest. Most people would never openly admit that sex was conditional


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> That's a personal choice on their part. The options would still be there whether they take part or not.
> 
> I think physical attraction kicks it off, sure there's more beyond that. Was your husband over 3 bills when you met? Did you date any guys that weight when you were single?


Nope my husband was a rocking 180. He was so hot but a little on the skinny side. My favorite weight for him is 200.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Numb26 said:


> "Grab popcorn" Was waiting for this to turn into a man vs. woman thr
> 
> Why would a hot person have sex with an ugly person? I'm confused


If I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times...."beauty is the eye of the beholder".


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> At least you are honest. Most people would never openly admit that sex was conditional


LOL how funny is one little typo. You obviously didn't read the rest. It wasn't about the weight.

I had MORE sex at a higher weight not less. I better go fix the typo.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Lila said:


> Do you truly believe that hot people stay sexually attracted to each other throughout their relationship just because they are hot?


I believe they have more options for sex. 

If you are asking if staying in shape is a cure all, of course not. But it doesn't make things worse either. Does that answer your question?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Al_Bundy said:


> I believe they have more options for sex.
> 
> If you are asking if staying in shape is a cure all, of course not. But it doesn't make things worse either. Does that answer your question?


If you're talking more options for sex amongst single people looking for sexual partners then i would agree. 

If you're talking more options for sex when in a long term marriage, it's one part of a whole slew of parts that affects sexual desire. Yes, maintaining physical attractiveness for your partner is important but there are plenty of hot people in sexless relationships. Like Anastasia said, there are plenty average and less than average people ****ing like bunny rabbits.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> At least you are honest. Most people would never openly admit that sex was conditional


Oh my sex is completely conditional. But not on his weight.

I have been married for 28 years. I look at his soul. I look at our life. I look at our bond.
When he was running triathlon's he spent so much time and energy training I felt neglected. I felt lonely. I could never keep up with him running or biking and since he was training it wasn't a light run or bike that I could do.

I only have sex on the condition I want sex. I want sex with my husband because he loves me and shows me he loves me in my love language. One of those is time, the other is acts of service. Nothing to do with looks.

Do I appreciate his in shape body sure but it didn't want to make me bang him more.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Oh my sex is completely conditional. But not on his weight.
> 
> I have been married for 28 years. I look at his soul. I look at our life. I look at our bond.
> When he was running triathlon's he spent so much time and energy training I felt neglected. I felt lonely. I could never keep up with him running or biking and since he was training it wasn't a light run or bike that I could do.
> ...


Women are the gatekeepers. That will never change


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Women are the gatekeepers. That will never change


Well since my husband turns me down more than I turn him down doesn't that make him the gatekeeper if there is one?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well since my husband turns me down more than I turn him down doesn't that make him the gatekeeper if there is one?


There is an exception to every rule but for the most part what I said is true


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> My opinions...albeit not popular....
> 
> I believe the reason why it's very hard, is that we as a species, are not "wired" to be monogamous.. even the small percentage of primates that are classified as monogamous, its not by choice...If all creatures decided to start practicing monogamy, is highly likely that they would become extinct in a single generation....So how can we think we are so omnipotent to think we can subvert this??
> 
> ...



I agree with much of this and agree that the very root of discontent is not how busy or how overworked or stressed one is how how much or how little one’s husband helps around the house or with the kids.

The very root of discontent is we were never designed to be with just one person for 60 years. 

Now how that discontent manifests itself is not going to be a direct “Its time to select my next mate.”

It’s going to manifest as a loss of attraction and desire for that person, and then we do mental gymnastics like telling ourselves that he isn’t supportive enough with the housework and kids, or that she isn’t as sexually appealing and exciting as she once was.

I think this is universal and has nothing to do with whether women work outside the home or not. 

My Bezos and Gates example is here are the two richest women in the world that likely never lifted a finger in a day’s work or ever cleaned a toilet in their lives and possibly never even changed a diaper,,,, yet they likely lost all attraction and desire for their husbands over the years despite the lavish lifestyles just like every working and middle class woman out there. 

Money and easy lifestyle did not change their primal nature one bit.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Lila said:


> Do you truly believe that hot people stay sexually attracted to each other throughout their relationship just because they are hot?


Perhaps not....but it does help...

When I think of the guys I know that are the happiest sexually in their marriages, their wives are more attractive, more fit,,more concerned about their appearance...I will admit most of the guys I know who would even talk about this are all guys that would be objectively attractive to the average woman...(Good shape, takes care of themselves, well off, etc)..

I will say that the number one complaint I have heard of from guys over the years when talking about why they don't have sex with their wives, its almost always because she stopped caring about her appearance...It would make me wonder how many of those women realize that is the key to a better life/sex life, because guys will almost never tell a woman that he isn't effing her because she is an overweight, slovenly, woman...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> There is an exception to every rule but for the most part what I said is true


But to understand your reference the person who says no the most is the gatekeeper right?

And there are like 3 or 4 other threads in the sex in marriage forum of other women who aren't have sex (just so you know).

You see we have sex frequently so neither of us cares if the other isn't feeling up to it. We both want it to be a mutually exclusive thoroughly enjoyable time. I guess if there was some kind of drought that would be different but when you have it mostly when ever you want it then not having it isn't a big deal.

I guess I do keep a gate but it you read my gate has been pried wide open from years of him filling the love bank. I look at our love, our bond, our life. So in general he's spent 28 years putting deposits in. So he can gain weight, he can have occasional ED, I can occasionally not orgasm, or what have you and it doesn't stop me from wanting him again, soon, often too soon.... He's filled that bank so full I hound him some days for 3 a day. Honestly his body can't keep that up. And that too is ok. I'll wait a day (impatiently....) for my next turn. and still love him. It is conditional but the conditions I have don't match up with most the stuff spouted here.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Perhaps not....but it does help...
> 
> When I think of the guys I know that are the happiest sexually in their marriages, their wives are more attractive, more fit,,more concerned about their appearance...I will admit most of the guys I know who would even talk about this are all guys that would be objectively attractive to the average woman...(Good shape, takes care of themselves, well off, etc)..
> 
> I will say that the number one complaint I have heard of from guys over the years when talking about why they don't have sex with their wives, its almost always because she stopped caring about her appearance...It would make me wonder how many of those women realize that is the key to a better life/sex life, because guys will almost never tell a woman that he isn't effing her because she is an overweight, slovenly, woman...


Also what's usually the first those same women do after a divorce...........lose weight. It's actually pretty funny how so many of them seem find the gym (and Jesus) after a breakup. There are at least a couple of old classmates on my social that I can tell when they're single because suddenly I'm seeing check ins at the gym and bible verse memes.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Well, I'm happy to throw my hat into the ring on this one.

You do not have to look far and wide to see this is generally a first world issue, and lets face it. None of us particularly care about how worlds we don't inhabit, operate, so I'm presuming we are talking primarily about modern western culture?

No secret that frequency of sex is down. 

No secret that feminism is having a bit of an identity crisis, with the; "You can have it all." and "You deserve it all." bad bill of goods that has been foisted on women.

No secret that 80% of divorces are initiated by women. Why? (See above)

No secret that women in many industrialized countries are having difficulty securing marriage eligible men.

No secret that men (particularly in the west) do not see marriage as equitable or beneficial to their long term interests any longer.

No secret that from a historical perspective, testosterone levels in men have been consistently dropping over the last 50 years.

No secret that over the course of the last decade, 'masculinity' has become a dirty word, and 'femininity' is to be thrown off and avoided like shackles.

Frankly? I'm stunned anyone at all is banging anymore.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> Also what's usually the first those same women do after a divorce...........lose weight. It's actually pretty funny how so many of them seem find the gym (and Jesus) after a breakup. There are at least a couple of old classmates on my social that I can tell when they're single because suddenly I'm seeing check ins at the gym and bible verse memes.


Can't argue lose weight is a go to after divorce. I would say men do it too.

Or my favorite they drop the drinking or smoking or other bad habits that the spouse hated and caused so much strife in their marriage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> Perhaps not....but it does help...
> 
> When I think of the guys I know that are the happiest sexually in their marriages, their wives are more attractive, more fit,,more concerned about their appearance...I will admit most of the guys I know who would even talk about this are all guys that would be objectively attractive to the average woman...(Good shape, takes care of themselves, well off, etc)..


Maintaining one's attractiveness is a basic need in a long term relationship, but it's only one. My point is that for women, long term sexual desire involves way more than physical appearance. Does it hurt to be attractive? No. Does it mean that's the only thing a man needs to keep up to maintain sexual desire in their partner? OMG, no way



> I will say that the number one complaint I have heard of from guys over the years when talking about why they don't have sex with their wives, its almost always because she stopped caring about her appearance...It would make me wonder how many of those women realize that is the key to a better life/sex life, because guys will almost never tell a woman that he isn't effing her because she is an overweight, slovenly, woman...


Chicken or the egg situation. A lot of women stop caring about their appearance because they do not want to have sex with their husbands/partners. They consciously or unconsciously want to sexual repel them.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> At least you are honest. Most people would never openly admit that sex was conditional


I keep thinking about this. Really isn't all sex conditional? I mean who has unconditional sex. 

Let's start with a prostitute. Her condition is you pay her.
Then we will move to the wife or husband who never says no. The condition is marriage.

Ok how about the girlfriend who doesn't ever say no.... well she's your girlfriend for a reason, you met her requirements for something.

That leaves random sex with strangers that you didn't buy or pay for anything. I think the condition there is probably raw physical attraction or the promise of a satisfying experience.

I mean am I missing something. It's all sex conditional?

ETA: even many of the men on this thread have sited keeping in shape as a condition for bang a girl. I always thought having the option was the only condition needed for many men.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Lila said:


> Maintaining one's attractiveness is a basic need in a long term relationship, but it's only one.* My point is that for women, long term sexual desire involves way more than physical appearance.* Does it hurt to be attractive? No. Does it mean that's the only thing a man needs to keep up to maintain sexual desire in their partner? OMG, no way


I dunno...Women like to say this, but without getting into too much personal detail, I think they are kidding themselves, in a lot of ways...If you would like me to elaborate, I will in a PM...

As to your second point, I do agree about the chicken egg scenario, but in a lot of cases, its not that she doesn't want the sex or affection, she just can't figure out why, as she is consuming a box of Oreos at a sitting and not shaving her armpits or legs because she can't be bothered...


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I keep thinking about this. Really isn't all sex conditional? I mean who has unconditional sex.
> 
> Let's start with a prostitute. Her condition is you pay her.
> Then we will move to the wife or husband who never says no. The condition is marriage.
> ...


Not to me. Me having sex with the XW was never conditional on anything. Weight, arguments, being sick, etc didn't matter. I never was never made her into a "hoop jumper".


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Not to me. Me having sex with the XW was never conditional on anything. Weight, arguments, being sick, etc didn't matter. I never was never made her into a "hoop jumper".


I don't see how being attracted to someone is a hoop.

In general I am attracted to my husband because he treats me well. So what you are saying is if one day he comes home and slaps me. I get upset but 10 minutes later he wants sex and I don't then I"m either a gatekeeper or making him jump through hoops?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Not to me. Me having sex with the XW was never conditional on anything. Weight, arguments, being sick, etc didn't matter. I never was never made her into a "hoop jumper".


And not to belabor the point but if a random woman comes up and wants to have sex you will because you have no conditions on sex?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Everything in the world is conditional. Yes sex is conditional for both men and women.

It’s just that different people have different conditions.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Everything in the world is conditional. Yes sex is conditional for both men and women.
> 
> It’s just that different people have different conditions.


Now that I agree with. different people have different conditions.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno...Women like to say this, but without getting into too much personal detail, I think they are kidding themselves, in a lot of ways...If you would like me to elaborate, I will in a PM...


Feel free to pm me but fair warning, my ex husband was an attractive man with a very nice physique (still does for that matter). There were times when I found him sexually repulsive and that's the honest to God's truth. 



> As to your second point, I do agree about the chicken egg scenario, but in a lot of cases, *its not that she doesn't want the sex or affection*, she just can't figure out why, as she is consuming a box of Oreos at a sitting and not shaving her armpits or legs because she can't be bothered...


Slight correction. "its not that she doesn't want the sex or affection", *she just doesn't want it from her husband. *

i do know there are women out there like you describe. I would say figure out why she's depressed because most healthy minded women I know do not behave like that.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I don't see how being attracted to someone is a hoop.
> 
> In general I am attracted to my husband because he treats me well. So what you are saying is if one day he comes home and slaps me. I get upset but 10 minutes later he wants sex and I don't then I"m either a gatekeeper or making him jump through hoops?


How did you make it that I was connecting spousal abuse to making someone jump through hoops? That's quite a leap (pun intended)


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> And not to belabor the point but if a random woman comes up and wants to have sex you will because you have no conditions on sex?


Depends on what she looks like. What do you know? I do have conditions! 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Depends on what she looks like. What do you know? I do have conditions! 🤣🤣🤣🤣


Which circles back to the anthropology aspect of this thread. In the past many women had sex simple because they were married and it was expected and there wasn't much divorce 100 years ago. Now things are different and men and women can't seem to understand the other side.

Men do seem more focused on looks as a condition and women on emotional connection.

But the first advice many men get when low sex is work out. Like that will automatcally make a spouse find them more attractive. There's not doubt if single being in shape will offer more choices but it won't necessarily fix the married issue if it wasn't a physical attraction issue in the first place.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> How did you make it that I was connecting spousal abuse to making someone jump through hoops? That's quite a leap (pun intended)


sure it is a leap. A much easier one to pin point than months or years of emotional disconnection and apathy. But the result if the same. They no longer want to have sex with the other person.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> No secret that feminism is having a bit of an identity crisis, with the; "You can have it all." and "You deserve it all." bad bill of goods that has been foisted on women.
> 
> No secret that 80% of divorces are initiated by women. Why? (See above)


I just read this post deejo and was frankly surprised by the two comments. Do you really believe that the reason 80% of divorces are filed by women is because they believe they can have it all? Or was this in jest?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> Which circles back to the anthropology aspect of this thread. In the past many women had sex simple because they were married and it was expected and there wasn't much divorce 100 years ago.


Do you have an opinion as to that dynamic being better or worse than where we find ourselves today?



Anastasia6 said:


> Now things are different and men and women can't seem to understand the other side.
> 
> 
> > Despite the ability to communicate more quickly and effectively, learn, and get answers to questions than ever, it sure does feel much messier than it was 20 or 30 years ago. I wonder if it actually is messier, or the mess was there but just better hidden.
> ...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Do you have an opinion as to that dynamic being better or worse than where we find ourselves today?


Well I think that truly depends on who you are right?

I think there are pros and cons to both.

I think the men that talk about never getting married must have some deep well of attractiveness and money because most the 20-35 year old women I know still want to get married. So sure some go wild and have sex all over but most are still looking for a long term thing so if that isn't there I think the men will find sex isn't there (unless super attractive / or rich).

I think if you are over 50 and divorced it may work fine for you.

I consider marriage so much more than a financial or sexual contract that I wouldn't be in a long term ****ery with some guy who didn't know if he wanted more.

I think that the world in general is a better place with equality. But being equal doesn't necessarily correlate with having the same roles. I think that many people need to better communicate with their partner and that's a good thing. I don't think we have gotten to that point as a society but I think we eventually will. It's like kids versus adults. Sure some men play video games all day and are irresponsible but eventually they grow up. I think society is like that. We are still in the playing games and not sure what our role in the world is. 

Also not everyone matures at the same time or ever. Such as women now make up a larger portion of the universities and make higher grades on average. Eventually they'll make up more of the upper levels of management and in some industries already do. I think families will have to adjust to this if we continue to push women into being breadwinners. 
I do think it will change the sexual dynamic for the good eventually. And face it in the old days it wasn't uncommon for married couples to have separate beds. I imagine there were plenty of sexless marriages back then too.

But the first time my husband gave me an orgasm that was a 10 on a 1-10 scale I got a lot more interested in sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Which circles back to the anthropology aspect of this thread. In the past many women had sex simple because they were married and it was expected and there wasn't much divorce 100 years ago. Now things are different and men and women can't seem to understand the other side.
> 
> Men do seem more focused on looks as a condition and women on emotional connection.
> 
> But the first advice many men get when low sex is work out. Like that will automatcally make a spouse find them more attractive. There's not doubt if single being in shape will offer more choices but it won't necessarily fix the married issue if it wasn't a physical attraction issue in the first place.


I understand your point but the advice is never to just work out and not do anything else. It's part of a laundry list of other things along with also seeking MC if the situation calls for that. 

In general if we are talking about sexual desirability, being in better shape physically will always be better than not being in better shape and being in better shape will never make someone less desirable.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Lila said:


> I just read this post deejo and was frankly surprised by the two comments. Do you really believe that the reason 80% of divorces are filed by women is because they believe they can have it all? Or was this in jest?


It is unavoidable that some of the stuff I have to say can be read as being incendiary, or that I posted with 'tone'. Can only assure you @Lila, that it is seldom the case. I'm a big fan of good outcomes. Wish there were more of them. For everyone.

I find relationship dynamics fascinating. But I'm not a partisan in saying women bad, men good.

I do think that people believe they instinctively know what they want marriage to be ... and then both are left like deer in headlights when it isn't.

No, I don't believe that women filing for divorce are doing so because they can have it all. And again, per all of the research I've read, men are far more engaged with housework and child rearing than at any time in the last 100 years. Yet ... here we are, women aren't happy with their marriages. And men don't want to get married.

I'm more invested in discussing and finding solutions rather than fanning the flames to further disagree.

I spent an hour on the phone today, with a very dear female friend who I've posted about numerous times in the past. And it just further highlights how the more I think I understand all of this 'division' while searching for unity, it just well ... sucks.

Her marriage is dying. I try to break things down to simple terms. May be right ... may be wrong ... I just like to think I'm right regardless ;-) Because he has undermined the trinity that I believe contributes to success for women in a marriage (attraction, comfort, security). He doesn't engage, he wants to be alone. Any request she makes for connection is met with a huff, or rolling of eyes. They are at the place when even when he explicitly does something that she wants him to do in order to feel closer, she in turn emphasizes, 'why can't he do more?' to which he responds, "I have no idea what you want me to do?" And she is utterly flustered. I simply asked her; "Why don't you just believe him?" And she was utterly vexed. I stated, that he is in fact telling her the truth. He truly does not know what she wants him to do. And more to the point, anything that he is doing now, is simply to get her off his back. Which she knows ... and she in turn goes after him more. 

And yet ... he wants to have sex with her to feel good about the relationship. This is exactly the kind of dynamic in my mind that lands us squarely asking the question about 'sexual anthropology' that @Anastasia6 opened with. 

This is playbook stuff to anyone that has been here for a while. But it's still just sad to see. There is no way that marriage survives, and it is likely for the best. She made a bad choice. Because he was NEVER going to be the guy that she imagined being married to, and having sex with for 20 plus years.

Cripes that's a long post. 

Did I answer your question?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

@Deejo It's worth taking notes from those who have that brass ring. Do you think you can qualify/quantify what maintains attraction and sexual equilibrium between you and your spouse? 

I just copied the quote was getting too long.

I think for me and I think for him. We choose to. It's simple. We choose to love each other. We choose to accept the other person. We are free. I don't have to hide my imperfect body. He doesn't have to stress about ED. We haven't actually been this way forever with the sex. We have always chosen the other person. tried to show the other person we love them. Tried to lessen their burden, let them lessen ours. We have been fairly good on communication and understand. We don't play games. If I want or need x I say it out loud.

Now sometimes I've been afraid to say some things out loud. My husband has a personality that won't let him say some things out loud. I've asked what his fantasies or desires are and he's never been able to answer me. It isn't that he doesn't want to it causes him too much anxiety. He's a giver. So I accept that. I don't badger him and say.... I know you have something that is a fantasy. It's taken me like 8 years to piece together that he might want a dominatrix type scene. But I can't get any details. Like are we talking hard core dom or are we talking just a pretty outfit and stuff like you bad boy you get down there and treat it like a ice cream cone in the desert.

While I don't have sex when I don't want to the thing is I do want to most the time. He's the same he doesn't have sex when he doesn't want to but he's up for it most the time.

I think the sex though comes from our incredible relationship. The trust and the acceptance.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think if men would just quit worrying so much about what was going on in a woman's head and just work on his goals, which should include being a good man to his girlfriend or wife, everyone would generally make out better.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I understand your point but the advice is never to just work out and not do anything else. It's part of a laundry list of other things along with also seeking MC if the situation calls for that.
> 
> In general if we are talking about sexual desirability, being in better shape physically will always be better than not being in better shape and being in better shape will never make someone less desirable.


Sure and it will never fix the asshole who works 40 and thinks the wife should work 40 , do the dishes, take care of the kids, shopping, cooking, laundry, she's tired and overwhelmed and he isn't getting sex.

He comes here and he's told get in shape, do even less, spend money on a new wardrobe and threaten her with divorce. I can see her panties dropping now.

My point is there is so much more to a woman's sexual desire for their partner than just how they look.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I think if men would just quit worrying so much about what was going on in a woman's head and just work on his goals, which should include being a good man to his girlfriend or wife, everyone would generally make out better.


I agree with that as long as being a good man isn't just a paycheck which some spout.

I'll flip it too. Women shouldn't think that just having occasional sex is all that is required. And for the love of god some people (lots of women) need to figure out how to say what they need instead of thinking their partner should know.

on the flip side if your partner is saying stuff you should listen. HOw many flips is that/


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Which circles back to the anthropology aspect of this thread. In the past many women had sex simple because they were married and it was expected and there wasn't much divorce 100 years ago. Now things are different and men and women can't seem to understand the other side.


Nah, people were horny back then just as now. 

Chicks dug a good looking, successful, emotionally intelligent and socially competent man back then just as much as they do now. 

And women are typically the ones that want children and families etc and back then there wasn't fertility clinics, sperm donors or artificial insemination or test tube babies. 

Sure, the lesser desirable women got stuck with the lesser desirable man then as now as well and the people that couldn't find someone that met their standards or conditions went without.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Nah, people were horny back then just as now.
> 
> Chicks dug a good looking, successful, emotionally intelligent and socially competent man back then just as much as they do now.
> 
> ...


Oh you are talking about the women who had a choice. Many women were married off by their families or church. So the unattractive in looks and personality still were able to have a wife. I mean it still happens today even here in America depending on the culture. Some are still trapped by lack of resources or are married before 18. Some marry because if they don't they will be cut off from their family or stone or killed. Yes honor killing still happens her in the us.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Hell we have a woman on here right now that is being violently anally raped by her husband with bleeding. We had a poster suggest she give him a time out. Really a time out. LIke no sex for 3 months?

Why would she ever want sex with him again? Why wouldn't everyone agree she should leave him now?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> I agree with that as long as being a good man isn't just a paycheck which some spout.
> 
> I'll flip it too. Women shouldn't think that just having occasional sex is all that is required. And for the love of god some people (lots of women) need to figure out how to say what they need instead of thinking their partner should know.
> 
> on the flip side if your partner is saying stuff you should listen. HOw many flips is that/


Part of being a good man.

I watch, study and listen but I don't understand most of what others are going through.

I agree that physical appearance only covers a portion of attraction especially in a long term relationship.

I've never had a problem getting sex, either single or married aside from a one time bad influence on Mrs. C.

I'm not unintelligent but I am simple and I see too much convolution messing with many men.

I'm into my 31st year with Mrs. Conan and she still pursues me for sex and it takes very little effort from me to get her to jump me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> @Deejo It's worth taking notes from those who have that brass ring. Do you think you can qualify/quantify what maintains attraction and sexual equilibrium between you and your spouse?
> 
> I just copied the quote was getting too long.


Yeah ... somehow I completely mucked up the 'quote' feature on my initial response.

I'll be brief.

Great answer. Made me smile. And envious.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Yeah ... somehow I completely mucked up the 'quote' feature on my initial response.
> 
> I'll be brief.
> 
> Great answer. Made me smile. And envious.


not to rib you. I know you are serious about never marrying again and I think I understand why. But the relationship we have wouldn't be possible for me outside of marriage. We have lots of great sex. We have so much more than great sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Also not everyone matures at the same time or ever. Such as women now make up a larger portion of the universities and make higher grades on average. Eventually they'll make up more of the upper levels of management and in some industries already do. I think families will have to adjust to this if we continue to push women into being breadwinners.
> I do think it will change the sexual dynamic for the good eventually.


There's a lot of moving parts and nuance to these statistics about women in higher education. What are these women majoring in and how marketable are those degrees? Are they majoring in sociology? Has anyone seen a job opening for a sociologist lately?

Psychology? I make what a lot of PhD psychologists make and I don't have a bachelors. Human Services? I make quite a bit more than many Masters degree license social workers. English? If you want to teach english in high school, there are a lot of openings there. History? Same as English. Cultural studies?? Mmmm kay. 

Now of course there are more women going into STEM programs than in the past, but those percentages of women in those programs is still small compared to men. 

Union journeyman plumbers, electricians, pipefitters and steel workers often make quite a bit more than nurses and respiratory therapists even though those programs are often apprenticeships conducted through community technical colleges rather than universities. 

there is getting to be more and more equal numbers of women in law school and med schools so there is that. But by and large, a lot of the programs and degrees being pursued by women are not as marketable or high paying as one would initially think.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ConanHub said:


> Part of being a good man.
> 
> I watch, study and listen but I don't understand most of what others are going through.
> 
> ...


We absolutely have some blue ribbon marriages around here. @ConanHub certainly falls into that category as well.

Maybe I'll get it right on marriage #3?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> not to rib you. I know you are serious about never marrying again and I think I understand why. But the relationship we have wouldn't be possible for me outside of marriage. We have lots of great sex. We have so much more than great sex.


But ... great sex.

To be clear my statement earlier about men not wanting to get married, actually pertains to younger men. As Conan alluded to, the pool of younger men that can find their ass with both hands, pursue excellence for themselves first, THEN choose to marry and want to raise a family is a ridiculously small percentage ... thus leading to the common female refrain of, "Where have all the good men gone?"

I'm twice married. 

I only ever wanted to be once married.

I'm not a pessimist. But I'm definitely a realist.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Deejo said:


> We absolutely have some blue ribbon marriages around here. @ConanHub certainly falls into that category as well.
> 
> Maybe I'll get it right on marriage #3?


You have a great alternate personality.😉. Duke Cannon can't lose! They ripped off Ron of course.

I happen to enjoy the shampoo myself. I couldn't resist buying it, thought about you actually, and found I really liked it.😋


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> But ... great sex.
> 
> To be clear my statement earlier about men not wanting to get married, actually pertains to younger men. As Conan alluded to, the pool of younger men that can find their ass with both hands, pursue excellence for themselves first, THEN choose to marry and want to raise a family is a ridiculously small percentage ... thus leading to the common female refrain of, "Where have all the good men gone?"
> 
> ...


You see I think realist can make the best partner pickers. Don't sugar coat it. You see my husband had several financial surprises shortly after we married. Never really bothered me. I didn't pick him for his past. I knew it wouldn't be an issue in the future so no sweat. Just work through it and it's done.

Now had the in the past been cheating then that's a different story. 

A realist should know what it takes to have a long term relationship work and what that partner looks like for them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Oh you are talking about the women who had a choice. Many women were married off by their families or church. So the unattractive in looks and personality still were able to have a wife. I mean it still happens today even here in America depending on the culture. Some are still trapped by lack of resources or are married before 18. Some marry because if they don't they will be cut off from their family or stone or killed. Yes honor killing still happens her in the us.


Yes in many ways arranged marriage is sexual socialism and sexual welfare where sexuality and reproduction is distributed to those who cannot get it for themselves. 

What has been taking place in recent times is now people (women in particular ) do have more free choice in choosing their mates than at any time or place in history. 

But what has happened because of that? Are people choosing wisely??? 

And even if people are choosing wisely, now we have a global sexual market place where women are getting offers not from their local church congregation like 100 years ago, but from men literally across the globe. The choices are overwhelming and how many have succumbed to paralysis by analysis. 

Now I am the last person to suggest we go back to arranged marriage as I believe strongly in free will and free choice (not an abortion reference. I mean making decisions for oneself) But we need to understand that the reason cultures and societies adopted arranged marriage in the first was to distribute mates to both men and women so each could have their own nuclear family. 

If left up to nature and complete freedom, 10, maybe 20% of the men would basically have 100% of the women. 

Sexual socialism and welfare was created to end the mass murder in the streets from the 80% of men who couldn't get a mate and the women that were all scratching each other's eyes out fighting over the 10% of high status men. 

There is no perfect solution. Complete societal control inhibits personal choice and freedom. 

Complete personal freedom results in anarchy, chaos and destruction.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

10 to 20 % of the men having all the women is complete ********.

First off we aren't all attracted to the same thing.
Second many of us like me are the women's version of Conan. I don't share!
I was attractive and had many marriage proposals when I was 15-23. The 'man' that society would have probably picked for me would have been the worst choice and it took me a while but I finally did dump him.

Do 10% of the men in blind picture survey's get the most votes. I can see that. But we are people. We all have different likes and dislikes. Some women like to be mansplained to....

I'm a 99th percentile, previously licensed engineer. There aren't many things I really need mansplained. One of the things I loved at first about my husband is he was gracious when he helped others not condescending. And took it in stride when I kicked his ass in both pool and dart on the first date.

BTW I'm also dyslexic and can't spell


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Deejo said:


> We absolutely have some blue ribbon marriages around here. @ConanHub certainly falls into that category as well.
> 
> Maybe I'll get it right on marriage #3?


I replied with a shampoo add but thanks and this barbarian is pulling for you.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Did I answer your question?















> It is unavoidable that some of the stuff I have to say can be read as being incendiary, or that I posted with 'tone'. Can only assure you @Lila, that it is seldom the case. I'm a big fan of good outcomes. Wish there were more of them. For everyone.
> 
> I find relationship dynamics fascinating. But I'm not a partisan in saying women bad, men good.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear you don't think the majority of the divorces filed by women are for frivolous reasons. The more pissed off person usually files first. In my own marriage, I filed after my ex said he wanted out. Two of my female friends filed when they found their husbands were cheating. One of my male friend's ex wife filed when she found out about his girlfriend. Anger is the common emotion in all of these cases. 

With regards to women being unhappy, and men not wanting to marry....I said it before but the default traditional expectations (playbook) for marriage are no longer valid. Everyone has their own definition of what they envision marriage to be and none of us seem to be able to communicate those expectations. To add to the confusion, we are a self absorbed, dog eat dog society unwilling to compromise. We are looking at our spouses/potential relationship partners as an adversary. These traits are not condusive to maintaining a healthy relationship long term. 






> I spent an hour on the phone today, with a very dear female friend who I've posted about numerous times in the past. And it just further highlights how the more I think I understand all of this 'division' while searching for unity, it just well ... sucks.
> 
> Her marriage is dying. I try to break things down to simple terms. May be right ... may be wrong ... I just like to think I'm right regardless ;-) Because he has undermined the trinity that I believe contributes to success for women in a marriage (attraction, comfort, security). He doesn't engage, he wants to be alone. Any request she makes for connection is met with a huff, or rolling of eyes. They are at the place when even when he explicitly does something that she wants him to do in order to feel closer, she in turn emphasizes, 'why can't he do more?' to which he responds, "I have no idea what you want me to do?" And she is utterly flustered. I simply asked her; "Why don't you just believe him?" And she was utterly vexed. I stated, that he is in fact telling her the truth. He truly does not know what she wants him to do. And more to the point, anything that he is doing now, is simply to get her off his back. Which she knows ... and she in turn goes after him more.
> 
> ...


Sounds all too familiar. My question to her would be "why are you staying married if he makes you so unhappy?".


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Lila said:


> Glad to hear you don't think the majority of the divorces filed by women are for frivolous reasons. The more pissed off person usually files first. In my own marriage, I filed after my ex said he wanted out. Two of my female friends filed when they found their husbands were cheating. One of my male friend's ex wife filed when she found out about his girlfriend. Anger is the common emotion in all of these cases.
> 
> With regards to women being unhappy, and men not wanting to marry....I said it before but the default traditional expectations (playbook) for marriage are no longer valid. Everyone has their own definition of what they envision marriage to be and none of us seem to be able to communicate those expectations. To add to the confusion, we are a self absorbed, dog eat dog society unwilling to compromise. We are looking at our spouses/potential relationship partners as an adversary. These traits are not condusive to maintaining a healthy relationship long term.
> 
> ...


So correct about the communication. I am shocked how many people don't really communicate with their spouse and then wonder what happened.

I think that as we become more equal then the more the communication needs to happen. That way everyone knows what's expected both before you get married and after. It also means as things change and they always do in a long term relationship you can stay on the same page if you choose too.

Deejo's friend is expressing her needs to her husband but maybe no in a way he can understand. I think he also doesn't want to understand. He doesn't want to do the things he thinks she wants but is afraid to try to find a middle ground. He just wants to hang by himself and then be able to act dumb when she doesn't want sex.

The big thing with my husband and I is we are a team. We are together. We make the rules for our team and if you aren't on our team then you don't get to vote on rules. I love my mother but she was too close to me and would often want to voice her opinion on something within our marriage. I would simple hold up my unique wedding band and say if you don't have one of these you don't get a say.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Duh. Most women are happiest being a wife and stay at home mom. When you make a woman act like a man and get a career and provide for the family.she resents that and the sex goes down.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> I'm a 99th percentile, previously licensed engineer. There aren't many things I really need mansplained. One of the things I loved at first about my husband is he was gracious when he helped others not condescending. And took it in stride when I kicked his ass in both pool and dart on the first date.
> 
> BTW I'm also dyslexic and can't spell


Is that story indicative of your real relationship dynamic? That you're kind of more the in charge, masculine role and he swings a little more feminine? Or is it one of those cute stories you have to come up with when someone asks you what made you fall in love with your partner. That works for polite conversation but doesn't really explain the real root of your attraction.

I do think most women are attracted to men who are stronger than them. Who can exert authority over them on some level. And unfortunately there are less and less of those men every year. And it's fairly easy as a man to lose a woman's respect in that regard.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

gaius said:


> Is that story indicative of your real relationship dynamic? That you're kind of more the in charge, masculine role and he swings a little more feminine? Or is it one of those cute stories you have to come up with when someone asks you what made you fall in love with your partner. That works for polite conversation but doesn't really explain the real root of your attraction.
> 
> I do think most women are attracted to men who are stronger than them. Who can exert authority over them on some level. And unfortunately there are less and less of those men every year. And it's fairly easy as a man to lose a woman's respect in that regard.


No it isn't a cutsie story. And no my husband isn't feminine in anyway that I know of. But he doesn't exert authority over me either. We are actually a team. I'm better at some things than he is. He is better at some things than I am. He doesn't try to pigeon hole. That is exactly one of the many reasons I love him.

I am better at finances, so guess who trades stock and is beating the market on returns? That would be me. I also plan our mortgage, retirement and all other large financial things. He get's input but if he wanted to buy a $50,000 car he knows he has to come see if that fits our budget.

He's better at building things, cars and guns. So if a raccoon needs to get shot in the chicken coop that's him.
Plumbing him. Math me.

You see you think this is a cutsie story and that is so much of what I avoided when I was looking for a husband. I just want to be all the me I am. I am bright, loud, passionate, caring, generous. Do I like him doing manly things like opening the door for me, Hell yes. But I don't think that should negate that I am way better at math and finances just because I like having the door opened.

He doesn't need to exert anything. He knows he could tell me to quit my job and I would. He also knows every decision has a cost. He doesn't expend his power to exert **** that isn't super important to him. And if it's super important to him than it is super important to me. Flip side I have no doubt I could do the same (what...) yes I could tell him to do something and he would. We would probably have discussion, we actually talk about most everything and double , triple talk about big decisions. We are a team these are together decisions.

So no me beating the snot out of him was one of my tests. You see when I was young and had DD plenty of guys wanted to go out with me. Plenty would do whatever I wanted. Plenty also expected me to be a dumb girl. I neither wanted a simp who would do anything I wanted just because I wanted it or one that I literally had to act dumb so they didn't feel bad. 99th percentile sounds like a brag until you live it. 

So I let him win the first one gave him his manly feed and let his ego inflate. Then I stomped him 3 times in a row and he wanted to switch to something else and so we did darts. I didn't even give him the first game. But he didn't care and he wasn't deflated. He was ok with me being better at those things. He's no slouch at pool but I used to make gas money on pool as a teen.

He has many strengths and he isn't any way shape or form unmanly. We once watched our daughter at 2 years old walk off a pool side into the water without wings and without being able to swim. He was up and in the water in less than 10 second. My brain was still processing what I was seeing. He can out shoot me. Which isn't surprising as he was a marksmen in the military. He's very bright and good with computers. I like to say he's a quiet commander.

Which is a good balance for me I'm loud and passionate. I often times jump without looking. He's always got my back.

I can't tell you how pissed I am that you even suggest he's somehow unmanly makes me. He's just not an asshole. But he's all man.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> 10 to 20 % of the men having all the women is complete ******.
> 
> First off we aren't all attracted to the same thing.


Why is it bull? Because there is some variety in what ladies find attractive, how many ladies do you think will be lining up for that 300lb+ guy that has no real education, no job, lives with his family, and has very little hair left? Not very many, in my estimation. What do women like? Generally prefer men taller than they are, men who are in decent shape, men who have a decent job, their own place, who don't act like complete dullards, etc. When you add up all of the little things that many ladies consider absolute necessities in a partner, you've already dismissed a big portion of the population.

Just as a disclaimer, my own dealbreakers likely eliminate 95% of the female population, if not more. So there is that.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> So correct about the communication. I am shocked how many people don't really communicate with their spouse and then wonder what happened.
> 
> I think that as we become more equal then the more the communication needs to happen. That way everyone knows what's expected both before you get married and after. It also means as things change and they always do in a long term relationship you can stay on the same page if you choose too.
> 
> ...


My point in bringing up my female friend, is that when this thing implodes ... and it will ... she, and most people in her orbit will believe he is responsible.

I don't. I believe she is equally responsible ... because she picked him. And he was always a sh!tty pick. She fostered a relationship and a marriage with an utterly irresponsible, and emotionally incapable guy ... and expected him to change.

I told her, that her relationship right now is teetering in that frightening place of co-dependent dysfunction. He keeps showing her EXACTLY who he is, and she keeps waiting and wondering why he isn't someone different. This is a 53 year old woman btw, not some lamb in the woods. She knows better ... but something about this guy, shut down all of her fail safes.

She is a smart, emotionally intelligent, self aware woman ... yet, she hitched her wagon to a serial cheating, emotionally stunted, responsibility avoidant, fixer-upper, and is somehow shocked at discovering that he is ... exactly what he always has been.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

thunderchad said:


> Duh. Most women are happiest being a wife and stay at home mom. When you make a woman act like a man and get a career and provide for the family.she resents that and the sex goes down.


Duh not all of us.

I could have had that for 20+ years. I didn't take that path. I could have it now except my child is 23. I think my husband if all other things didn't matter would prefer I stay home. I don't resent him for working. I didn't have to resent him for home stuff because he always did his share.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> My point in bringing up my female friend, is that when this thing implodes ... and it will ... she, and most people in her orbit will believe he is responsible.
> 
> I don't. I believe she is equally responsible ... because she picked him. And he was always a sh!tty pick. She fostered a relationship and a marriage with an utterly irresponsible, and emotionally incapable guy ... and expected him to change.
> 
> ...


Right but you are proving my other point. She wasn't being realistic. You have that realism. So you have the chance at what I have. The trick is don't do the fake dating. Be you. All of you on every date. If you and her still like each other after many of these dates you have something.

That was one of the hardest things I did with my husband. I let all of me out early instead of waiting. When I was 16 I was so dumb. I did the hair, nails, high heels, laugh at things I didn't find funny, let them treat me however they wanted without speaking up (not talking sex here) then I'd judge them.

Most I discarded after the first date or so. But even though I think I found the right one. I went about it all wrong. I had men throwing themselves at me and while I was attractive physically it was more than that. I gave the best of me and hid the worst. People have always been attracted to my outgoing self. But most only when it's reigned in or benefiting them. So by the time they find out the same outgoing personality means I will speak up when they would prefer I not...... we are too far in. 

And I didn't have a plan.
I wasn't trying to trick them. But at some point after ditching my finance (worlds worst pick for me perfect for someone else) I figured hey. I need these guys to like me for me and **** the ones who don't (or don't **** them to be specific).

You see society tells us to put your best foot forward. That's not really how to build a honest solid relationship.

soon after our first date I introduced my husband to my mom at her house. She was a hoarder and a lot to take in. She and I was also close. So if you can't take my screwed up family then you aren't the guy for me. I don't expect you to like my whole family I sure don't. But if you want some post card family you're out.

Again my husband took it in stride.

Long way to the point. 

I think you could actually still find your happy.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Lila said:


> Glad to hear you don't think the majority of the divorces filed by women are for frivolous reasons.


Well, unless we are prepared to believe that the overwhelming majority of husbands are absolute, and complete, utter morons ... plenty of those divorces are frivolous.

Hell, ex#2 is responsible for 4, all by herself.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> No it isn't a cutsie story. And no my husband isn't feminine in anyway that I know of. But he doesn't exert authority over me either. We are actually a team. I'm better at some things than he is. He is better at some things than I am. He doesn't try to pigeon hole. That is exactly one of the many reasons I love him.
> 
> I am better at finances, so guess who trades stock and is beating the market on returns? That would be me. I also plan our mortgage, retirement and all other large financial things. He get's input but if he wanted to buy a $50,000 car he knows he has to come see if that fits our budget.
> 
> ...


I think a lot of people would categorize handling the regular finances as a masculine role. How good with math do you really need to be to pay the cable bill every month? He gives you a level of control a lot of men would be uncomfortable with. Not because they're aholes, but because as men they get off on having a certain level of control themselves. 

So whatever term you want to call it, if you find masculine/feminine offensive... From what you're saying it seems like you're more in control and he's more the passenger. And that dynamic is a turn on for both of you. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm not making fun of him Anastasia. I was genuinely curious what relationship dynamic led to you two having an active sex life after so many years.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Enigma32 said:


> Why is it bull? Because there is some variety in what ladies find attractive, how many ladies do you think will be lining up for that 300lb+ guy that has no real education, no job, lives with his family, and has very little hair left? Not very many, in my estimation. What do women like? Generally prefer men taller than they are, men who are in decent shape, men who have a decent job, their own place, who don't act like complete dullards, etc. When you add up all of the little things that many ladies consider absolute necessities in a partner, you've already dismissed a big portion of the population.
> 
> Just as a disclaimer, my own dealbreakers likely eliminate 95% of the female population, if not more. So there is that.


And that's your perogative to only want 5% of the women and they may be the most popular 5% in the world and you may even get those women. But the top 5% of women often have traits that aren't attractive like selfishness or expect guys to make big bucks and want to spend hundred on purses or thousands. 

My husband doesn't find that kind of girl attractive. He actually was engaged to some blond nut case. He got smart and got out. I had a college degree when he met me. He was still in junior college. I wasn't hunting his money. I am very generous and compassionate (to a degree). He actually like that about me. It also sometimes annoys him. I mean we've had at least 4 different people live with us in the last 12 years. Why because I wanted to help them. We discuss it and he decides if it's ok with him. But left to his own devices they wouldn't have come. He enjoys being generous but also wouldn't do it on his own.

He will get to retire a millionare at 59 most likely. Is it because he makes millions no. It's because i"m good with money. He likes that too. 

Different strokes for different folks. Even if you argued that the 5% you like are the best, brightest, sweetest women on the planet. There is still only 5% of them. Most men I know or have know would rather be with a real live girl than not be with the one on TV. Why because they like live girls. There is a big difference between being in the top 10% of men and being a 300 lb loser who lives at home with mom. 

The bottom 10% may never find anyone but there is some much room in the middle for normal people with flaws.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

gaius said:


> I think a lot of people would categorize handling the regular finances as a masculine role. How good with math do you really need to be to pay the cable bill every month? He gives you a level of control a lot of men would be uncomfortable with. Not because they're aholes, but because as men they get off on having a certain level of control themselves.
> 
> So whatever term you want to call it, if you find masculine/feminine offensive... From what you're saying it seems like you're more in control and he's more the passenger. And that dynamic is a turn on for both of you. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm not making fun of him Anastasia. I was genuinely curious what relationship dynamic led to you two having an active sex life after so many years.


You are missing the point. In the past money has been left to men. Some do well with it others do horribly with it. A true partnership or team you both do whatever is your strength.

He shoots isn't that masculine? He fixes cars that's masculine. He deals with contractors, again masculine. But I don't want the relationship to be about control. That isn't team work. We work as a team. We let those who do a job best do the job.

And planning a retirement at 59 is way more than paying the cable bill. Deciding how much mortgage you can truly afford is way more than asking the damn bank.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

gaius said:


> I think a lot of people would categorize handling the regular finances as a masculine role. How good with math do you really need to be to pay the cable bill every month? He gives you a level of control a lot of men would be uncomfortable with. Not because they're aholes, but because as men they get off on having a certain level of control themselves.
> 
> So whatever term you want to call it, if you find masculine/feminine offensive... From what you're saying it seems like you're more in control and he's more the passenger. And that dynamic is a turn on for both of you. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm not making fun of him Anastasia. I was genuinely curious what relationship dynamic led to you two having an active sex life after so many years.


Actually you hit this one right on the head of the nail. It lines up with the sex and anthropology so well.

Men have in the past used money to control. 

I have never wanted to be controlled. I find having a partner that neither tries to control me or wants to be controlled refreshing and exciting even after 28 years. I find having a true partner an aphrodisiac. While there are women who still want men to be in control. I think that starts to fade when those same women are told go out make your own 1/2 in this world but still act like a dependent on me.

I think some women still want the old model but the men / the world don't want the old model they want to keep the control but shed some of the responsibility. The women who want to let you control also don't want to earn their way.

Roles are changing but not for everyone so there is so much confusion due to the lack of communication on both sexes parts.

And more women are rejecting the control.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

gaius said:


> I think a lot of people would categorize handling the regular finances as a masculine role. How good with math do you really need to be to pay the cable bill every month? He gives you a level of control a lot of men would be uncomfortable with. Not because they're aholes, but because as men they get off on having a certain level of control themselves.
> 
> So whatever term you want to call it, if you find masculine/feminine offensive... From what you're saying it seems like you're more in control and he's more the passenger. And that dynamic is a turn on for both of you. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm not making fun of him Anastasia. I was genuinely curious what relationship dynamic led to you two having an active sex life after so many years.


This seems limited.

I make jokes about being a little mouseflower of a man but they are jokes.😉

Mrs. C and I do team up like this.

She has always held the checkbook and paid the bills.

I take care of the budget and she executes it.

She really isn't masculine at all and it would be a stretch to describe me as at all feminine.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> Right but you are proving my other point. She wasn't being realistic. You have that realism. So you have the chance at what I have. The trick is don't do the fake dating. Be you. All of you on every date.


Well I appreciate that sentiment. But ... to be clear, I'm cool. Not looking for anyone to complete me, or convince me this whole thing isn't a sham. I think most folks around here would vouch that I'm pretty emotionally honest, and healthy ... emotionally healthy. Physically has been a bit of train wreck for the last couple years, but we're in a rebuilding phase.
I date when I choose to, and I have no issues finding willing, enthusiastic partners. And sometimes my dating is 'experimental', but never betrays who I am, what I want, or is intended to be injurious to any woman.

I fell in love with ex#2 knowing full well her trauma and flaws. The right move would have been to divest ... but she wasn't the only woman I fell in love with. Fell for her daughter as well. Wanted better for both of them. Was not traumatized or terribly surprised by the outcome. But certainly disappointed.

And respectfully, the bit about "just be who you are." is a very common refrain and piece of advice I hear women offer to men seeking women. But ... if you are a guy that does want to meet and have great experiences with women, but just something about you keeps you forever in the friend zone or worse, as opposed to having that 'brass ring'? Then they need to modify who they are. 

There are absolutely good men that want to be in relationships, but for whatever reason do not possess that tool set to elicit and foster attraction, and plenty of guys like my friend's husband who always have women ... yet have no interest in building, compromising, or creating anything of value with a partner. 

That bizarre schism, for both genders is why our lovely site exists.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> You are missing the point. In the past money has been left to men. Some do well with it others do horribly with it. A true partnership or team you both do whatever is your strength.
> 
> He shoots isn't that masculine? He fixes cars that's masculine. He deals with contractors, again masculine. But I don't want the relationship to be about control. That isn't team work. We work as a team. We let those who do a job best do the job.
> 
> And planning a retirement at 59 is way more than paying the cable bill. Deciding how much mortgage you can truly afford is way more than asking the damn bank.


I'm not talking about what he does in his spare time. He's the Brawny man when it comes to that, ok? I'm taking about the action and reaction between you two that's caused a sexual spark to stay alive a lot longer than average.

You two work as a team, great. But you could sit down, decide together what mortgage is the best fit for you, and then he could call the bank. But he doesn't. You do. You're both in the car but you're in the driver's seat.

In my marriage it's the opposite. My wife finds comfort and security in the fact I drive. That I take care of a lot of that stuff. It's a turn on for both of us. And my preconceived notion was that was the case for most, if not all women. But you have shown me otherwise. I learned something new. So thank you.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Well I appreciate that sentiment. But ... to be clear, I'm cool. Not looking for anyone to complete me, or convince me this whole thing isn't a sham. I think most folks around here would vouch that I'm pretty emotionally honest, and healthy ... emotionally healthy. Physically has been a bit of train wreck for the last couple years, but we're in a rebuilding phase.
> I date when I choose to, and I have no issues finding willing, enthusiastic partners. And sometimes my dating is 'experimental', but never betrays who I am, what I want, or is intended to be injurious to any woman.
> 
> I fell in love with ex#2 knowing full well her trauma and flaws. The right move would have been to divest ... but she wasn't the only woman I fell in love with. Fell for her daughter as well. Wanted better for both of them. Was not traumatized or terribly surprised by the outcome. But certainly disappointed.
> ...


I know you aren't looking. Just trying to figure out what date is sex.....

But I really don't think what I have is that hard to come by. It does seem rare. I wish everyone could have it. But it is hard sometimes for others because one thing I've done is accept his flaws or things I"d like to have different. I accept that the wonderful I have couldn't exist with out the 'flaws' so I accept them and don't try to change them and don't wish them away or let them eat away at me inside. I see him for who he is. and I accept him.

Many people don't accept. They say ohhh maybe I can live with, or change xxxx. Nope if you can't live with happily and are committed to not changing xxx then don't get married.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> She really isn't masculine at all and it would be a stretch to describe me as at all feminine.


Actually it wouldn't Conan. You're so busy trying to tell other people your opinions of yourself that I'm not sure you're fully in touch with how you actually come off.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

gaius said:


> I'm not talking about what he does in his spare time. He's the Brawny man when it comes to that, ok? I'm taking about the action and reaction between you two that's caused a sexual spark to stay alive a lot longer than average.
> 
> You two work as a team, great. But you could sit down, decide together what mortgage is the best fit for you, and then he could call the bank. But he doesn't. You do. You're both in the car but you're in the driver's seat.
> 
> In my marriage it's the opposite. My wife finds comfort and security in the fact I drive. That I take care of a lot of that stuff. It's a turn on for both of us. And my preconceived notion was that was the case for most, if not all women. But you have shown me otherwise. I learned something new. So thank you.


Actually he drives and I don't even carry a purse. We joke that I'm not allowed pockets.

He has been known to call the bank. Or the plumber.
He's handled problems and I've handled problems..

What drives our sexual spark, I believe is acceptance and teamwork. Our love languages being spoken too often.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> 10 to 20 % of the men having all the women is complete ******.
> 
> First off we aren't all attracted to the same thing.
> Second many of us like me are the women's version of Conan. I don't share!
> ...


I guess if your determined enough, you could have the top guy in the 79th percentile all to yourself LOL 😉


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Oh the fact that he is so self confident that my excellence in different areas doesn't threaten him drives me wild. 

He has many things he's good at that what I"m good at doesn't bother him. Having that self awareness and not having to make others small or dependent to be himself is awesome and sexy.

When I took my Calculus team to 3rd in the nation at a national competition. He happily came out and helped us round the kids up the last day and get them on different airplanes. Then he turned around and led me through a mountain trail hike and protected me from a bear. I love both worlds.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

gaius said:


> Actually it wouldn't Conan. You're so busy trying to tell other people your opinions of yourself that I'm not sure you're fully in touch with how you actually come off.


You have missed that I don't really care. 💋😉


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I guess if your determined enough, you could have the top guy in the 79th percentile all to yourself LOL 😉


well depending on what category we are ranking I probably don't even find the 79th percentile attractive.

If we are ranking male looks I'll take what ever percentile my other character traits fail in.

If we are taking marksmen, I'll take top 10%

If we are talking money making I have to look it up but that's probably top 20%

If we are talking sex top 0.0001%

If we are talking coffee making again the top 0.0000001%

I don't know how my husband would rank if we put him in this mythical scale.

Doesn't matter. He'd make many lists and fall off others.
I have no doubt if we divorced he'd find someone to replace me (or could he may not)
I also have no doubt being in the bottom 1 % I could and would be able to find someone to replace him.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> You have missed that I don't really care. 💋😉


Care or not, just keep in mind the next time you mention your wife ripping off your pants for the 1000th time, and not the other way around, that's not her playing the feminine role.

Which there's nothing wrong with. But it is what it is. Goodnight one and all!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

thunderchad said:


> Duh. Most women are happiest being a wife and stay at home mom. When you make a woman act like a man and get a career and provide for the family.she resents that and the sex goes down.


That is so not true. I jumped through hoops when I was young to not have to do that.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

gaius said:


> I think a lot of people would categorize handling the regular finances as a masculine role. How good with math do you really need to be to pay the cable bill every month? He gives you a level of control a lot of men would be uncomfortable with. Not because they're aholes, but because as men they get off on having a certain level of control themselves.
> 
> So whatever term you want to call it, if you find masculine/feminine offensive... From what you're saying it seems like you're more in control and he's more the passenger. And that dynamic is a turn on for both of you. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I'm not making fun of him Anastasia. I was genuinely curious what relationship dynamic led to you two having an active sex life after so many years.


That must vary by local culture, men paying the bills. My mom and dad were 50s people, and my dad made the money and he certainly spent money whenever he wanted to without asking anyone, but my mom is who sat down and paid the bills. Then when my dad got old I paid the bills for him. I've honestly never heard of it being the norm that men are who actually physically pay the bills.

Of course I paid all my bills myself my whole life and made the money to do it. There are people who are better and worse at it but I've never heard one sex being better or worse at it.

I think it's true that a lot of that is just about men wanting control, and I think we're past the time when women find that attractive.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

It looks like I'll have to start shooting raccoons to be masculine... that's where I went wrong!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> It just wasn't common here when I had my children in the 70's, even among those where both worked. They just did everything between them.
> When I was working full time (with a long commute) before I had my first child we spent sat morning doing the chores together.


yes this started in the mid 80's for us, around when the 1st kid showed up and she went back to work.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That must vary by local culture, men paying the bills. My mom and dad were 50s people, and my dad made the money and he certainly spent money whenever he wanted to without asking anyone, but my mom is who sat down and paid the bills. Then when my dad got old I paid the bills for him. I've honestly never heard of it being the norm that men are who actually physically pay the bills.
> 
> Of course I paid all my bills myself my whole life and made the money to do it. There are people who are better and worse at it but I've never heard one sex being better or worse at it.
> 
> I think it's true that a lot of that is just about men wanting control, and I think we're past the time when women find that attractive.


my wife pays all the bills in the marriage, except for bills for my small business. But since our part time secretary left, she does all the accounting for the business too. She is just better at that stuff than i am.

If she screwed things up, i would start doing the bills. I am technically capable of doing the math....but she just is more, i don't know, "emotionally capable" to do it? After 20 minutes of paying bills, i would be at my limit and just start cruising the internet to break the monotomy! She just powers on thru it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Well, unless we are prepared to believe that the overwhelming majority of husbands are absolute, and complete, utter morons ... plenty of those divorces are frivolous.
> 
> Hell, ex#2 is responsible for 4, all by herself.


No, but you missed my point about anger being the impetus for filing first. 

Regardless, frivolous is subjective. Is "falling out of love" a frivolous reason? It isn't to me (my ex husband used those words) so I filed. A different male friend filed for divorce because his relationship had turned into a good friendship/roommate situation and not a sexual romantic one. Was his reason frivolous? I don't think so.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> It looks like I'll have to start shooting raccoons to be masculine... that's where I went wrong!


Bears. With a Bowie knife. 🤣🤣🤣


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Bears. With a Bowie knife. 🤣🤣🤣


Now, don't get over the top!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

gaius said:


> Care or not, just keep in mind the next time you mention your wife ripping off your pants for the 1000th time, and not the other way around, that's not her playing the feminine role.
> 
> Which there's nothing wrong with. But it is what it is. Goodnight one and all!


Lol. I guess one person's masculine is another person's passionate.

This would probably make a good topic with a survey. "What's your preference? A) the woman who initiates sex aggressively or B) the one who passively/subtlely initiates?

I fall into the "rip his pants off with my teeth" category but have run into the ones who like the opposite. To every pot there is a lid.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Lila said:


> Lol. I guess one person's masculine is another person's passionate.
> 
> This would probably make a good topic with a survey. "What's your preference? A) the woman who initiates sex aggressively or B) the one who passively/subtlely initiates?
> 
> I fall into the "rip his pants off with my teeth" category but have run into the ones who like the opposite. To every pot there is a lid.


I like them both! 😉


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Numb26 said:


> I like them both! 😉


C) Why is this a question? I'm getting laid either way. 🤣


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Lila said:


> C) Why is this a question? I'm getting laid either way. 🤣


That was my answer as well.

Wife wants to rip my pants off or invade my shower, yes please!

I take an hour to heat her up and then she’s ready, ok!

As long as there is sex happening exactly how it happens is not a concern.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Lila said:


> No, but you missed my point about anger being the impetus for filing first.
> 
> Regardless, frivolous is subjective. Is "falling out of love" a frivolous reason? It isn't to me (my ex husband used those words) so I filed. A different male friend filed for divorce because his relationship had turned into a good friendship/roommate situation and not a sexual romantic one. Was his reason frivolous? I don't think so.


Did you know that cultures with arranged marriage actually have a lower divorce rate? Statistically somewhere between 4% and 6%. As opposed to 50% in the US. So yes, falling out of love is frivolous, if the partnership wasn't predicated on being in love in the first place. The requirement of romantic love for marriage is a distinctly western construct, and one that assured that divorce rates would skyrocket. I actually read an entire book about this called; "Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace with Marriage" by Elizabeth Gilbert. The author of Eat, Pray, Love, and the woman who jumped through hoops to marry her second husband, only to later divorce him, and become romantically involved with a close female friend.

I'm certainly not arguing that romantic investment should not be an important factor in deciding whom you want to marry. But I'm also not a fan of making great big decisions based on 'feelings' alone. 

I'm an outlier on the divorce statistic front. I didn't want either. But I pursued both. In the first case I tried my best to salvage the marriage over years. In the second, given the circumstances and how poorly she handled it, I didn't lift a finger to stop it, and in fact insisted on moving forward with divorce after she had moved out.

I won't ever remain in a relationship, where it is evident that a partner has no interest or investment in meeting my physical and emotional needs. Just no point, otherwise. And the truth is, the threshold for meeting those is spectacularly low. I also suspect this is in part a distinction between men and women.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Did you know that cultures with arranged marriage actually have a lower divorce rate? Statistically somewhere between 4% and 6%. As opposed to 50% in the US. So yes, falling out of love is frivolous, if the partnership wasn't predicated on being in love in the first place. The requirement of romantic love for marriage is a distinctly western construct, and one that assured that divorce rates would skyrocket. I actually read an entire book about this called; "Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace with Marriage" by Elizabeth Gilbert. The author of Eat, Pray, Love, and the woman who jumped through hoops to marry her second husband, only to later divorce him, and become romantically involved with a close female friend.
> 
> I'm certainly not arguing that romantic investment should not be an important factor in deciding whom you want to marry. But I'm also not a fan of making great big decisions based on 'feelings' alone.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that cultures with arranged marriages have lower divorce rates. They are also the cultures that make it plain to many women(and sometimes the men) that if they divorce for what ever reason then they are a failure. Many subsections of these cultures train women from birth they are chattle to be sold to their husband and thus belong to him. Other subsections tell the women the will be cut of from family, resources and risk possible physical harm. Of course those women are less likely to leave the marriage. The cultural issues happen for men too as they are expected not to leave (depending on which culture and which part of the culture you are espousing).

I'd be actually shocked if those cultures are anywhere close to the US. Where not only is the culture different but the choices for women and men are much different as well.

But that's kind of the point of the thread. With new and expanding opportunities for women they too find themselves in your position. They no longer have to stay with men who don't meet their basic needs. In the past it often wasn't a choice for women but now it is or the choices continue to expand. As people can afford to make those choices they often do. That means that when partners aren't meeting your needs and aren't willing to work on it then divorce may happen. Just now I think we see more women with higher standards (and I'm not even talking super high). Just like no cheating, hitting and treat me decent.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Deejo said:


> I won't ever remain in a relationship, where it is evident that a partner has no interest or investment in meeting my physical and emotional needs. Just no point, otherwise. *And the truth is, the threshold for meeting those is spectacularly low. I also suspect this is in part a distinction between men and women.*


This is a very interesting point...I wonder if you are right about it!!


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Lila said:


> Lol. I guess one person's masculine is another person's passionate.
> 
> This would probably make a good topic with a survey. "What's your preference? A) the woman who initiates sex aggressively or B) the one who passively/subtlely initiates?
> 
> I fall into the "rip his pants off with my teeth" category but have run into the ones who like the opposite. To every pot there is a lid.


I consider myself traditional and very masculine. 

I’m also from the ShowMe state. 

Sooooo….. show me how bad you want me, wife. I don’t care for subtlety or hints. Come and find me and rip my clothes off. 

Like you said, a lid for every pot.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Anastasia6 said:


> I have no doubt that cultures with arranged marriages have lower divorce rates. They are also the cultures that make it plain to many women(and sometimes the men) that if they divorce for what ever reason then they are a failure. Many subsections of these cultures train women from birth they are chattle to be sold to their husband and thus belong to him. Other subsections tell the women the will be cut of from family, resources and risk possible physical harm. Of course those women are less likely to leave the marriage. The cultural issues happen for men too as they are expected not to leave (depending on which culture and which part of the culture you are espousing).
> 
> I'd be actually shocked if those cultures are anywhere close to the US. Where not only is the culture different but the choices for women and men are much different as well.
> 
> But that's kind of the point of the thread. With new and expanding opportunities for women they too find themselves in your position. They no longer have to stay with men who don't meet their basic needs. In the past it often wasn't a choice for women but now it is or the choices continue to expand. As people can afford to make those choices they often do. That means that when partners aren't meeting your needs and aren't willing to work on it then divorce may happen. Just now I think we see more women with higher standards (and I'm not even talking super high). Just like no cheating, hitting and treat me decent.


Women do indeed have greater opportunities and higher standards. Standards which an even smaller subset of men can, or want to meet, thus the decline of marriage in the west. 

I'm a pretty open minded sort. Opportunity is a good thing. But it isn't ONLY a good thing. It comes with plenty of unforeseen consequence as well. I vividly recall having a brilliant female colleague at a company I worked at years ago. She worked in technical support. She had the ability to troubleshoot and resolve issues that entire escalation teams struggled with. Her female manager believed she was utterly wasting her talent in the role she had. She believed that she had so much more to offer and that she would be a great product manager. So the manager promoted her.

The problem? She didn't want to be promoted. She promptly quit, and joined another organization ... doing tech support. My point is, opportunity is a matter of perspective. "TradWife" is the latest bizarre acronym on social media; which I'm sure I don't fully understand ... other than it is women that don't aspire to anything other than being housewives, and apparently they get no end of crap for it, which in the world of social media could be the goal in itself. Like I said, times are weird all around.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Women do indeed have greater opportunities and higher standards. Standards which an even smaller subset of men can, or want to meet, thus the decline of marriage in the west.
> 
> I'm a pretty open minded sort. Opportunity is a good thing. But it isn't ONLY a good thing. It comes with plenty of unforeseen consequence as well. I vividly recall having a brilliant female colleague at a company I worked at years ago. She worked in technical support. She had the ability to troubleshoot and resolve issues that entire escalation teams struggled with. Her female manager believed she was utterly wasting her talent in the role she had. She believed that she had so much more to offer and that she would be a great product manager. So the manager promoted her.
> 
> The problem? She didn't want to be promoted. She promptly quit, and joined another organization ... doing tech support. My point is, opportunity is a matter of perspective. "TradWife" is the latest bizarre acronym on social media; which I'm sure I don't fully understand ... other than it is women that don't aspire to anything other than being housewives, and apparently they get no end of crap for it, which in the world of social media could be the goal in itself. Like I said, times are weird all around.


I don't see having standards as some bad consequence of having options and opportunities.

In my experience from my younger years and some here. Some men think the only standard a woman should have is if he brings home a paycheck. In the old days lack of opportunity made that a sad truth for many women. They were expected to stay beautiful, be a great mom, cook, lover , host and such the all around stay at home. He was expected to be a provider. Sometimes he was expected to stay faithful but really how many people villianize JFK even though he was an unfaithful ****?

I reject the idea that now that women can have higher standards it's a bad thing. I also reject the idea that keeps getting spouted about only 10% or the top 10% or what have you will have spouses. This forum is filled with married people. Newsflash we aren't all top 10% we have spouses. So the theory is then that none of our spouses have standards?

I think that reasonable self aware people are going to have reasonable standards and if those are honestly conveyed before marriage and the other accepts and meets those standards great.

I expect my husband to have standards but being 20 better not be one because I'm not 20 can turn 20 and he knew when he married me I wasn't 20. So that is bad.

And if your standards are so high no one meets them isn't it better that you live your life alone than marry someone and then just live miserably. That's the great thing about options. Anyone can now reasonable live alone. I don't see everyone giving the men **** when they say they are never marrying again. So if some women set standards too high to get married great they are out of the marriage pool so no man gets whacked by them.

In the old days women had to get married, they didn't have job and couldn't support children on their own. They also could have children on their own without a ton of stigmatism not just for them but their child. No you go to a parent teacher meeting with only one parent it is the norm. No one even asks where Dad is. So if a woman wants she can have children on their own.

I think many people and children are happier when part of family unit but you can choose not to be. The men don't have to support the women and the women don't need men to have children. Now once you marry and set up financial agreements that is different but in theory in society.

There's a woman here on TAM right now who isn't happy her husband has no plans to even consider her feelings about him visiting strip clubs and paying to have his bare ass spanked. But she has two small children and no where to go. So if she had the opportunity for a job she could leave his sorry ass. She's not in the US so don't know what her opportunities are. But her's are more limited than mine because I have a job already. I don't have small children. And I would so leave his ass. And I would spank it bloody on the way out.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Lila said:


> No, but you missed my point about anger being the impetus for filing first.
> 
> Regardless, frivolous is subjective.* Is "falling out of love" a frivolous reason? * It isn't to me (my ex husband used those words) so I filed. A different male friend filed for divorce because* his relationship had turned into a good friendship/roommate situation* and not a sexual romantic one. Was his reason frivolous? I don't think so.


If you consider the wording of traditional marital vows, then yes, both reasons are frivolous.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Here is something else, and I believe its why there are more sexual incompatibilities...

I've lived long enough to see how these societal changes have affected how people interact...In my teens(and 20's), guys were generally guys and women were women...Not that it was some idealistic "leave it to Beaver" crap, I am not nearly that old, but there were still pretty clearly defined lines between the genders....

With the strong push toward gender equality over the last few decades, I believe that aspect may be negatively affecting what was once that "Yin/Yang" men and women had that helped build attraction and sexual chemistry,,....Lines have blurred far too much now...That may be a great thing for a lot of reasons(guys no longer having to be shamed for staying home with kids and women no longer shamed for holding traditional male career roles). when all this happens, there is probably a mind fck happening with people as they try to live in this world and also develop lasting sexual relationships with the opposite sex....

IMO, The further the genders merge and co mingle, the less the sexual attraction/chemistry between the sexes....Let's be honest, the last thing I would ever want is to think my partner was my peer, in the sense of what makes me a man

The further from that center the genders are, the more powerful that attraction.. but alas society is trying to pull people to the center creating a form of gender ambiguity...As I stated in my earlier post, this stuff is hard wired in our brains..when you start to perhaps artificially attempt to alter that, then you will likely have negative issues.......02


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Here is something else, and I believe its why there are more sexual incompatibilities...
> 
> I've lived long enough to see how these societal changes have affected how people interact...In my teens(and 20's), guys were generally guys and women were women...Not that it was some idealistic "leave it to Beaver" crap, I am not nearly that old, but there were still pretty clearly defined lines between the genders....
> 
> ...


Perhaps it is hard wired that way in your brain. And it brings back the earlier thought of what is masculine/ feminine?
Is cooking feminine yet the many great chefs are male and don't usually get accused of being feminine, or well I guess you can talk to Gordan Ramsey about his female ways.

So to me it is was most earlier summed up properly as control. I was hard wired to not to want to be controlled. I appreciate my husbands masculinity and I would even defer to him in anything he wanted (within reason we aren't dong an open marriage). But I love him and am attracted to him because he would never abuse that power I've given him with my love and he reciprocates it. Anything I found important enough to demand (within reason) he'd do.

I find him wildly attractive.

So I agree some may be hard wired. I don't think it is actually some stupid biological hard wiring. I think it is societal and cultural teachings. But it doesn't stop it from being ingrained and something a person might need or want.
So with the changing expectations isn't it more incumbent upon us than ever to learn how to communicate with perspective partners our actual needs and wants? Then each partner can decide if that lines up.

I see here and out in the world all to often..... What should wives be doing? .... My husband.....
In reality we can offer what we know and see in our parts but that means horseshit as the two people in the relationship have to figure out what is right for them.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

As a side note I have tried a new TV series the Santa Clarita Diet.

I say that here because while it is a comedy of ridiculous proportions I can see it. The couple in the series love each other and does some crazy stuff in trying to live together with a 'problem'. I actually find it refreshing to see them compromising and working together.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Perhaps it is hard wired that way in your brain. And it brings back the earlier thought of what is masculine/ feminine?
> Is cooking feminine yet the many great chefs are male and don't usually get accused of being feminine, or well I guess you can talk to Gordan Ramsey about his female ways.
> 
> So to me it is was most earlier summed up properly as control. I was hard wired to not to want to be controlled. I appreciate my husbands masculinity and I would even defer to him in anything he wanted (within reason we aren't dong an open marriage). But I love him and am attracted to him because he would never abuse that power I've given him with my love and he reciprocates it. Anything I found important enough to demand (within reason) he'd do.
> ...


Respectfully disagree with practically all of this....

Jobs don't make men men and women women....Its something you just "know it when you see or experience it",...

Real men don't control spouses anyway....Weaklings do that...and weaklings submit to that...I have no idea why you would think that is a traditional male trait...

When someone says "stupid biological hard wiring" then my interest in discussion with that person ends.. I didn't learn from society to like women in a sexual way, and I didn't learn from society what to do with my d!ck and how to please a woman...Imagine that?

Think about this for a minute...Its been found that in one generation, African Elephants tusk sizes have significantly shrunk...this is believed by scientists as a result of intense poaching...Is it at all possible that the severe lowering of male testosterone levels and secondary male sex characteristics noted in males of the last few generations has had a similar effect, only this time it was because of the societal gender blurring and feminization of these men?? Stupid biology, right? Maybe we can discuss these guys into their nuts dropping?.lol...

Subsequently, if "societal pressures" make it so now we have to "discuss" matters that we were born to know, (heck even the dumb animals I breed know this), then that would be the ultimate boner killer...It would be like talking to someone on how to eat a sandwich...

If people can get by and "enjoy" sex in a contrived way, with a manual, a coach, or whatever, who am i to say? Good for them, i guess...It would never be something I would be a party to....


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> Respectfully disagree with practically all of this....
> 
> Jobs don't make men men and women women....Its something you just "know it when you see or experience it",...
> 
> ...


Ironically I wasn't really referring to sex but things that often times effect attraction. For instance if who does what in the marriage is a sources of contention then who does what should be talked about. It was intimated early that if a man has a woman who initiates than he isn't manly she is... Do you believe that?


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ironically I wasn't really referring to sex but things that often times effect attraction. For instance if who does what in the marriage is a sources of contention then who does what should be talked about. It was intimated early that if a man has a woman who initiates than he isn't manly she is... * Do you believe that?*



Nah,,,that's a bunch of bullshyt,,,lol...


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> if a man has a woman who initiates


Wait...women initiate sex? Where is this Utopian world?! I've never been there


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Wait...women initiate sex? Where is this Utopian world?! I've never been there





FloridaGuy1 said:


> Wait...women initiate sex? Where is this Utopian world?! I've never been there


Well at my house they do sometimes. Not all the time. I sometimes hound my husband for sex. I"m shameless really. It's great being a woman because if I were a man the hounding would be bad.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well at my house they do sometimes. Not all the time. I sometimes hound my husband for sex. I"m shameless really. It's great being a woman because if I were a man the hounding would be bad.


Do you have a sister willing to move to Florida? (Just asking for a friend)


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Do you have a sister willing to move to Florida? (Just asking for a friend)


I actually probably do. She lives in Alaska right now. But I would never do that to anyone I even half way liked.

I still have hope of you pulling your wife back into the fold.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I actually probably do. She lives in Alaska right now. But I would never do that to anyone I even half way liked.
> 
> I still have hope of you pulling your wife back into the fold.


I do too. Just not sure how it will happen. Thanks


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

We’re arguing NFP on another thread and seems like all the birth control pill ladies were adamant “no loss of sex drive for us”… so haha ladies- here’s someone who DID experience a loss of sex drive on the pill! They shrink your brain too!

Come on over to NFP and experience the true joy of pregnancy planning/spacing.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Did you know that cultures with arranged marriage actually have a lower divorce rate? Statistically somewhere between 4% and 6%. As opposed to 50% in the US. So yes, falling out of love is frivolous, if the partnership wasn't predicated on being in love in the first place. The requirement of romantic love for marriage is a distinctly western construct, and one that assured that divorce rates would skyrocket. I actually read an entire book about this called; "Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace with Marriage" by Elizabeth Gilbert. The author of Eat, Pray, Love, and the woman who jumped through hoops to marry her second husband, only to later divorce him, and become romantically involved with a close female friend.


I have read that divorce rates are lower with arranged marriages and get a strange "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" vibe from it. There are no real studies to indicate those in arraigned marriages are any happier overall. Plenty of unhappily married people, arraigned or otherwise. 



> I'm certainly not arguing that romantic investment should not be an important factor in deciding whom you want to marry. But I'm also not a fan of making great big decisions based on 'feelings' alone.
> *
> I won't ever remain in a relationship, where it is evident that a partner has no interest or investment in meeting my physical and emotional needs. *Just no point, otherwise. And the truth is, the threshold for meeting those is spectacularly low. I also suspect this is in part a distinction between men and women.


I agree and feel many modern women feel like you. They feel their needs are pretty basic and won't put up with a partner who has no interest in meeting them. 

I disagree that it's a matter of threshold. I think it's a matter of having differing needs. 



Enigma32 said:


> if you consider the wording of traditional marital vows, then yes, both reasons are frivolous.


If traditional vows were considered at all, more married people would work harder at not breaking them.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> Think about this for a minute...Its been found that in one generation, African Elephants tusk sizes have significantly shrunk...this is believed by scientists as a result of intense poaching...Is it at all possible that the severe lowering of male testosterone levels and secondary male sex characteristics noted in males of the last few generations has had a similar effect, only this time it was because of the societal gender blurring and feminization of these men?? Stupid biology, right? Maybe we can discuss these guys into their nuts dropping?.lol...



I'm trying to understand what you're implying here? Do you think lowering testosterone levels in humans is the equivalent of poaching long tusked elephants?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Lila said:


> I'm trying to understand what you're implying here? Do you think lowering testosterone levels in humans is the equivalent of poaching long tusked elephants?


Pretty basic...

Environmental stimuli can often translate into biological/physiological changes in living beings. It's part of a process.

While I can't say the same is the case for plummeting natural test levels in younger males I can easily see how it's possible, using the same theory to explain the changes in elephants. They evolved un natural traits because of some external and un natural stimuli. I'm not implying anything. Just a speculation.

What would be your theory?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> Pretty basic...
> 
> Environmental stimuli can often translate into biological/physiological changes..
> 
> ...


It's not my theory per se but the situation with the elephants is Natural Selection 101. Are you saying that the drop in testosterone levels (believed to be caused by environmental factors) is causing men with low T to die off without reproducing thereby leaving only women and high testosterone men to pass on their genes?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Have we as an evolving society created the perfect storm for no sex in marriage?


Yes


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Yes


I think we are at extremes in a lot of cases. I see tons of people all over the internet who say they have little or no sex and then I see people who swing, share and post videos of themselves having sex. The internet is now full of such sites.

I see fewer and fewer places with couples who just have an acceptable, normal (a few times per week) sex lives. As I mentioned in another thread, this site is the only place where I read about those people with normal, acceptable sex lives and honestly there aren't really a lot here that claim it (at least vs those that do not)


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

I think that what was once considered normal healthy sex life's are a thing of the past. Things are now at either end of the extremes.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> I think that what was once considered normal healthy sex life's are a thing of the past. Things are now at either end of the extremes.


Agree 100% 

Not sure why either but it certainly seems to be true to me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

LisaDiane said:


> This is a very interesting point...I wonder if you are right about it!!


Oh ... I don't wonder if I'm right about it. 🧐


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Agree 100%
> 
> Not sure why either but it certainly seems to be true to me.


Maybe because depravity has become acceptable and "normal"


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> We’re arguing NFP on another thread and seems like all the birth control pill ladies were adamant “no loss of sex drive for us”… so haha ladies- here’s someone who DID experience a loss of sex drive on the pill! They shrink your brain too!
> 
> Come on over to NFP and experience the true joy of pregnancy planning/spacing.


If you aren't a salesman, you should be, lol. You never give up. I mean that sincerely and in a positive way.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Maybe because depravity has become acceptable and "normal"


That does seem to be true. 

However, one thing I always have to remind myself is the internet is not the real world. We are never seeing a random sample of reality while on the internet, yet we are basing our perception of the world on what we see there. TAM is a great example. If you assume the world is as it is on TAM it certainly seems like happy marriage is a lost cause and dying breed. That isn't the reality. This place just draws in people with marital issues. Maybe not all, but a lot. In real life I only know a very few people that have divorced. Easily a 10 to 1 ratio of longer term marriages to divorces. Within my family it is similar. Now I have little insight as to how happy they are behind closed doors, how is their sex life, etc., but on the outside they appear happy. And the few couple that we are quite close to I know they are happy. 

I wonder how much of what we think about the world is a skewed perception or reality.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That does seem to be true.
> 
> However, one thing I always have to remind myself is the internet is not the real world. We are never seeing a random sample of reality while on the internet, yet we are basing our perception of the world on what we see there. TAM is a great example. If you assume the world is as it is on TAM it certainly seems like happy marriage is a lost cause and dying breed. That isn't the reality. This place just draws in people with marital issues. Maybe not all, but a lot. In real life I only know a very few people that have divorced. Easily a 10 to 1 ratio of longer term marriages to divorces. Within my family it is similar. Now I have little insight as to how happy they are behind closed doors, how is their sex life, etc., but on the outside they appear happy. And the few couple that we are quite close to I know they are happy.
> 
> I wonder how much of what we think about the world is a skewed perception or reality.


Good point. I guess we all have differing perspectives as I was just thinking about divorce rates I know of with direct people I know. I sat down and counted 29 couples I know and would count as close friends. 26 of them have at least one partner who is divorced. Most are both. So my perspective is that most people I know (these would be in the 40 - 65 age range) are divorced and on their second or third marriage.

So while I don't know all the reasons, I do know they are previously divorced. And as I mentioned in another thread the other day, most of my guy friends complain about their sex lives with some not having had sex with their wives for some period of time (months or more).

I mean why is that? Sex is so simple yet such a big issue. I don't understand.

And yeah the external appearance is not accurate either as people like me appear to be very happy and many tell us what a great couple we make. If they only knew the truth.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Maybe because depravity has become acceptable and "normal"


Yes, but not so much with women.


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Where's the anthropology? I've spent a whole seven minutes of my precious time before the lake of robot fire skimming through this thread, and I see nothing but cupidity, ego and conflict. It doesn't reflect any society I know of....
Oh, I know! Post-Modern Meat-Bags!


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Good point. I guess we all have differing perspectives as I was just thinking about divorce rates I know of with direct people I know. I sat down and counted 29 couples I know and would count as close friends. 26 of them have at least one partner who is divorced. Most are both. So my perspective is that most people I know (these would be in the 40 - 65 age range) are divorced and on their second or third marriage.
> 
> So while I don't know all the reasons, I do know they are previously divorced. And as I mentioned in another thread the other day, most of my guy friends complain about their sex lives with some not having had sex with their wives for some period of time (months or more).
> 
> ...


well my parents and my husbands parents are divorced and both men remarried. Those marriages are both going on like 20 years or more now.

However as far as friends I think this maybe one of those things were similar people group together. Out of the people I am friends with it's about 60% are on their first marriage and about 40% are divorced most are remarried.

Maybe there is some kind of something to the friend of a feather thing.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

AandM said:


> Where's the anthropology? I've spent a whole seven minutes of my precious time before the lake of robot fire skimming through this thread, and I see nothing but cupidity, ego and conflict. It doesn't reflect any society I know of....
> Oh, I know! Post-Modern Meat-Bags!


Well we have discussed societal changes over time and even testosterone changes over time. Different cultural values and mores. But if you don't like it or find it educational enough feel free to NOT post on MY thread.

Notice you didn't add anything anthropologic either.

I've thoroughly enjoyed most of the conversation and twists to the thread. I also think that it's way more useful than some of standard one line answers to today's sexual problems. Obviously we probably won't solve them for if we could we make millions.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Good point. I guess we all have differing perspectives as I was just thinking about divorce rates I know of with direct people I know. I sat down and counted 29 couples I know and would count as close friends. 26 of them have at least one partner who is divorced. Most are both. So my perspective is that most people I know (these would be in the 40 - 65 age range) are divorced and on their second or third marriage.
> 
> So while I don't know all the reasons, I do know they are previously divorced. And as I mentioned in another thread the other day, most of my guy friends complain about their sex lives with some not having had sex with their wives for some period of time (months or more).
> 
> ...


I think part of the dilemma comes down to it isn't just sex. Men and women feel and respond different about sex. And of course not all men and women respond the same either. So it is complicated.

For women sex is often more about the whole relationship and for men it's more about ejaculation.
I often speculate that if women truly were having great sex regular if we wouldn't see more interest in sex.
I know in my own marriage my husband has always been a generous lover but neither of us were very experienced and frankly I didn't have a clue what a REALLLY good orgasm even was. I thought I had it good. everything was pleasant. Then one day we got better and one day I was laying on the bed literally unable to speak just kind of quivering from a good orgasm and that's one reason I"m actually a lot more into sex now then I was at say 25. So a woman could even tell you she's happy with her sex life or that she orgasms or what have you. But I am not sure is women realize we have a scale from like 1-10. Men I now feel sorry for their scale is like 2-4 so some are better than others but .... and of course we can be multi-orgasmic as well.

Of course when I bring this up men always say oh my wife orgasms all the time and she still only wants it once a week. And that may be true but I wonder if they know the truth.....Can they handle the truth.... And of course I still need to be mentally attracted to my husband to want sex.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well we have discussed societal changes over time and even testosterone changes over time. Different cultural values and mores. But if you don't like it or find it educational enough feel free to NOT post on MY thread.
> 
> Notice you didn't add anything anthropologic either.
> 
> I've thoroughly enjoyed most of the conversation and twists to the thread. I also think that it's way more useful than some of standard one line answers to today's sexual problems. Obviously we probably won't solve them for if we could we make millions.


So, anthropology is the study of sexuality, behavior, language and values?


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

AandM said:


> So, anthropology is the study of sexuality, behavior, language and values?


Anthropology is the study of what makes us human usually in consideration of the past to present changes of such.

I can't imagine anything more human than sexuality and the hangups around that. We were specifically discussing how modern changes in societal structure is effecting sexuality within marriage. and other topics found to be mildly related or interesting.


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Anthropology is the study of what makes us human usually in consideration of the past to present changes of such.
> 
> I can't imagine anything more human than sexuality and the hangups around that. We were specifically discussing how modern changes in societal structure is effecting sexuality within marriage. and other topics found to be mildly related or interesting.


Big Mead fan?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

AandM said:


> Big Mead fan?


No idea who or what Mead is. I mean I know Mead is an alcoholic drink made with honey. But it doesn't seem to be what you are referring to.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I think we are at extremes in a lot of cases. I see tons of people all over the internet who say they have little or no sex and then I see people who swing, share and post videos of themselves having sex. The internet is now full of such sites.
> 
> I see fewer and fewer places with couples who just have an acceptable, normal (a few times per week) sex lives. As I mentioned in another thread, this site is the only place where I read about those people with normal, acceptable sex lives and honestly there aren't really a lot here that claim it (at least vs those that do not)


So you are seeing extremes on both ends of the spectrum and nothing in between. Is it possible that the extremes are attracted to SM and the internet? Most of those in the middle are too busy living their desperate lives with no time to complain or brag. People don't complain about things they are pleased with. And only brag if they are ecstatic about something. 

Except for us retired folks, with time for foolishness. I will be one to claim wife and I have "normal (very) acceptable sex lives". BTW, to me the age of those posting on TAM seems to trend toward "seniors". Don't see many 20-30 something married people posting


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This place just draws in people with marital issues.


I myself found TAM while looking for solutions to beginnings of ED. If person has a problem and needs to find a way to solve it, the internet is today's encyclopedia, dictionary, and library all at our fingertips.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> I think part of the dilemma comes down to it isn't just sex. Men and women feel and respond different about sex. And of course not all men and women respond the same either. So it is complicated.
> 
> For women sex is often more about the whole relationship and for men it's more about ejaculation.
> I often speculate that if women truly were having great sex regular if we wouldn't see more interest in sex.
> ...


I agree with a lot of this but my O scale is similar to Mrs. Conan's. We've both had duds and laughed about it and we've also had 10's on the Richter scale that left her an unintelligible pile and nearly caused me to blackout.🙂


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> No idea who or what Mead is


Margaret Mead was anthropologist who studied human sexuality in 60s n 70s.

To quote Wikipedia “Her reports detailing the attitudes towards sex in South Pacific and Southeast Asian traditional cultures influenced the 1960s sexual revolution. She was a proponent of broadening sexual conventions within the context of Western cultural traditions.”


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Margaret Mead was anthropologist who studied human sexuality in 60s n 70s.


Ah, I was wondering if she was with Mead the stationary and school supplies company. I did love those Trapper Keepers in the 80s.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> But I am not sure is women realize we have a scale from like 1-10. Men I now feel sorry for their scale is like 2-4 so some are better than others but .... and of course we can be multi-orgasmic as well.


I definitely am jealous of when my wife has an orgasm that seems to go on for 30+ seconds and she’s making a lot of noise and I can actually feel her contractions and spasms through my ding dong. 

She can’t have one like that without a bullet vibrator generally, hands don’t cut it, and only with specific positions but when she has one like the other day despite my own being at a 4 of my 2-4 scale, I was like damn I want to be able to do that.

There is another thread on here now about “the taboos of multi orgasmic men” with a couple TAM regulars posting that they can achieve this. So I think maybe there are guys who can access the full 1-10 range but I can’t.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I definitely am jealous of when my wife has an orgasm that seems to go on for 30+ seconds and she’s making a lot of noise and I can actually feel her contractions and spasms through my ding dong.
> 
> She can’t have one like that without a bullet vibrator generally, hands don’t cut it, and only with specific positions but when she has one like the other day despite my own being at a 4 of my 2-4 scale, I was like damn I want to be able to do that.
> 
> There is another thread on here now about “the taboos of multi orgasmic men” with a couple TAM regulars posting that they can achieve this. So I think maybe there are guys who can access the full 1-10 range but I can’t.


You said ding Dong. 🤣


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I think part of the dilemma comes down to it isn't just sex. Men and women feel and respond different about sex. And of course not all men and women respond the same either. So it is complicated.
> 
> For women sex is often more about the whole relationship and for men it's more about ejaculation.
> I often speculate that if women truly were having great sex regular if we wouldn't see more interest in sex.
> ...


I personally think that the vast majority of women really do like and want sex and nearly every instance of dead bedroom is just a loss of attraction for their husband. At the same time I think most woman are more responsive desire than spontaneous. That is why they think nothing is wrong with their dead bedroom. They don't miss it if they aren't turned on and if you lose your attraction for your husband they just never get turned on. The husbands need to first recognize the wife's loss of attraction. That loss of attraction most likely presents itself as a reduction in sex frequency. Then they need to understand the cause so they can address it. The sooner you react the easier it will be to recover.

I've been very lucky. I wasn't always aware of how important it was to keep that attraction at the highest level possible and kind of assumed it would always be there. Luckily I managed to keep my wife's interest over the years even without focusing on it. However, once I had awareness of the importance of that attraction, and I took actions to increase her attraction, sex went to the next level. I wish I realized it sooner. I think you are on the mark with it being about the relationship for the woman. That is what I focused on when I wanted to maximize her attraction for me. I did do things like getting into better shape and making myself as physically appealing as possible, but the biggest thing was putting more energy into our relationship. That gave the biggest result in the sex and passion department.

I question those guys that think their wife has an orgasm every time. They may believe that, but it probably isn't the reality. Even if they are right, it may not matter. I do think the quality of sex matters, but there is more to it than that to create a completely fulfilling sex life. Exceptionally good sessions with my wife do seem to increase her desire for the next one in the short term, but I think the overall relationship is the biggest factor. I think you need both to have the best result. If your wife isn't attracted to you she can still have an orgasm. Hell, even rape victims can have an orgasm, but it doesn't make them want more. We want it all, good sex and good relationship.


ETA: I wanted to mention that working on my relationship with my wife resulted in much more than just an increased level of attraction and improved sex. It has seemed that every bit of extra energy I've put into our relationship has resulted in my wife responding in kind. It made all aspects of our relationship better.


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I personally think that the vast majority of women really do like and want sex and nearly every instance of dead bedroom is just a loss of attraction for their husband. At the same time I think most woman are more responsive desire than spontaneous. That is why they think nothing is wrong with their dead bedroom. They don't miss it if they aren't turned on and if you lose your attraction for your husband they just never get turned on. The husbands need to first recognize the wife's loss of attraction. That loss of attraction most likely presents itself as a reduction in sex frequency. Then they need to understand the cause so they can address it. The sooner you react the easier it will be to recover.
> 
> I've been very lucky. I wasn't always aware of how important it was to keep that attraction at the highest level possible and kind of assumed it would always be there. Luckily I managed to keep my wife's interest over the years even without focusing on it. However, once I had awareness of the importance of that attraction, and I took actions to increase her attraction, sex went to the next level. I wish I realized it sooner. I think you are on the mark with it being about the relationship for the woman. That is what I focused on when I wanted to maximize her attraction for me. I did do things like getting into better shape and making myself as physically appealing as possible, but the biggest thing was putting more energy into our relationship. That gave the biggest result in the sex and passion department.
> 
> I question those guys that think their wife has an orgasm every time. They may believe that, but it probably isn't the reality. Even if they are right, it may not matter. I do think the quality of sex matters, but there is more to it than that to create a completely fulfilling sex life. Exceptionally good sessions with my wife do seem to increase her desire for the next one in the short term, but I think the overall relationship is the biggest factor. I think you need both to have the best result. If your wife isn't attracted to you she can still have an orgasm. Hell, even rape victims can have an orgasm, but it doesn't make them want more. We want it all, good sex and good relationship.


If a wife loses attraction to her husband it isn't coming back. Best thing to do is just cut your loses and leave. My thinking would be why would I want to have sex with someone who didn't want to have sex with me?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I personally think that the vast majority of women really do like and want sex and nearly every instance of dead bedroom is just a loss of attraction for their husband. At the same time I think most woman are more responsive desire than spontaneous. That is why they think nothing is wrong with their dead bedroom. They don't miss it if they aren't turned on and if you lose your attraction for your husband they just never get turned on. The husbands need to first recognize the wife's loss of attraction. That loss of attraction most likely presents itself as a reduction in sex frequency. Then they need to understand the cause so they can address it. The sooner you react the easier it will be to recover.
> 
> I've been very lucky. I wasn't always aware of how important it was to keep that attraction at the highest level possible and kind of assumed it would always be there. Luckily I managed to keep my wife's interest over the years even without focusing on it. However, once I had awareness of the importance of that attraction, and I took actions to increase her attraction, sex went to the next level. I wish I realized it sooner. I think you are on the mark with it being about the relationship for the woman. That is what I focused on when I wanted to maximize her attraction for me. I did do things like getting into better shape and making myself as physically appealing as possible, but the biggest thing was putting more energy into our relationship. That gave the biggest result in the sex and passion department.
> 
> I question those guys that think their wife has an orgasm every time. They may believe that, but it probably isn't the reality. Even if they are right, it may not matter. I do think the quality of sex matters, but there is more to it than that to create a completely fulfilling sex life. Exceptionally good sessions with my wife do seem to increase her desire for the next one in the short term, but I think the overall relationship is the biggest factor. I think you need both to have the best result. If your wife isn't attracted to you she can still have an orgasm. Hell, even rape victims can have an orgasm, but it doesn't make them want more. We want it all, good sex and good relationship.


I agree with you 99% of the time BD…. This is one of those times where I do not. 😂

Im not going to say that you are wrong, but I think a significant portion of the male population does what you say here and nothing changes. I know for sure that I did. The only thing that gets my wife’s attention is when she realizes that she is losing me…… only then does she put in the effort to reel me back in.

I’ve always taken care of myself. I’m told by women that I look good enough. I’ve provided. I think of her. I give her gifts (that are very thoughtful. Lots of my gifts to her take me 50-100 hours to make for her), I spend quality time with her, I do acts of service, I take her on vacations…. You name it. I’ve done it.

only when she can feel that I’m on my way out does she change her tune. Thing is these days I don’t allow us to ever get comfortable again. I have to keep her on her toes 100% of the time or she will revert. This of course builds a crap ton of resentment inside of me for her. Something I’m looking forward to addressing in MC.

I see what you are saying….. but it isn’t quite that easy.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> If a wife loses attraction to her husband it isn't coming back. Best thing to do is just cut your loses and leave. My thinking would be why would I want to have sex with someone who didn't want to have sex with me?


I think there is a point of no return with attraction, but there are examples here on TAM where dead bedrooms have been turned around. I imagine the spark of desire and attraction was not 100% gone.

I get what you are saying about not wanting sex with someone who doesn't really want it, however that happens in most relationships. I know there was a point in time where I wanted sex with my wife, then GF, but she either didn't want it or wasn't ready for it yet. That didn't stop me from trying to get her into me enough to want to have sex with me.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Back in the early 81/82 I had a job as a kid at a restaurant/club that featured a live band on Fri/Sat night...The customer base was mostly middle aged couples and even some seniors...They would come, dressed nice, eat dinner and dance to the band, get a little liquored up, and go home.....usually not until 3 AM...Sometimes they even got caught in the bathroom or the linen room fooling around..

Just a guess on my part, but I would bet that those couples got down and dirty once they got home...They did look pretty happy...

Imagine the typical 50 something year old couple that's been married for 25/30 years doing that stuff now?....not happening...Too much work related stress, too much trying to keep up with the Joneses,etc

I still contend that when you "masculinize" women and "feminize" men, then its not a good recipe for a healthy sex life.. I don't pay all that much attention to what guys are doing, but women seem not as sexy as they once were...Some have it all figured out, but a lot of them can't or don't even care enough to want to...


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I agree with you 99% of the time BD…. This is one of those times where I do not. 😂
> 
> Im not going to say that you are wrong, but I think a significant portion of the male population does what you say here and nothing changes. I know for sure that I did. The only thing that gets my wife’s attention is when she realizes that she is losing me…… only then does she put in the effort to reel me back in.
> 
> ...


You were definitely on my mind when I was writing that. 

My assumption is the ultimatum was needed because of the amount of time you allowed the situation to continue. If you had recognized what was happening to your sex life after just a month or two do you think you would have needed to take the same hardline stance?

I never see a guy on here with dead bedroom issues that has only been going on a month or two. It is often measured in years. At that point I can't blame the wife for resisting change. I mean everything was fine from her perspective for a very long time, so why change?

Does she continue to fall back into her old pattern even now that she knows where you stand and will not live with a sexless marriage?

Also, you can't forget that communication is a big part of the relationship and if you are not effectively communicating what is important in the relationship for you then don't expect it to just happen. That needs work and effort too. If sex is important to you then you need to include it in what you are working on, right along with acts of service, gifts, emotional support, etc.


----------



## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> To quote Wikipedia “Her reports detailing the attitudes towards sex in South Pacific and Southeast Asian traditional cultures influenced the 1960s sexual revolution. She was a proponent of broadening sexual conventions within the context of Western cultural traditions.”


Except most of what she wrote has been thoroughly debunked. Most of the natives just told her what they thought she wanted to hear, including some pretty juicy stuff. Apparently it became a game to them.

So the moral is, don't always believe what you hear from other people about their lives.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Back in the early 81/82 I had a job as a kid at a restaurant/club that featured a live band on Fri/Sat night...The customer base was mostly middle aged couples and even some seniors...They would come, dressed nice, eat dinner and dance to the band, get a little liquored up, and go home.....usually not until 3 AM...Sometimes they even got caught in the bathroom or the linen room fooling around..
> 
> Just a guess on my part, but I would bet that those couples got down and dirty once they got home...They did look pretty happy...
> 
> ...


We do exactly that. I'm 50, wife is 53 and our 32nd anniversary is next month. We regularly go see local bands, dance and party, and yes have hot sex when we get home. We've even done it in the parking lot, lol. The only thing we don't do is stay out to 3am, can't do that anymore. Those places we go to are filled with lots of people our age.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You were definitely on my mind when I was writing that.
> 
> My assumption is the ultimatum was needed because of the amount of time you allowed the situation to continue. If you had recognized what was happening to your sex life after just a month or two do you think you would have needed to take the same hardline stance?
> 
> ...


i can honestly say “no”. Getting after it after 1 or 2 months would not have changed a thing with the way she acts.

we’ve actually been through this multiple times before. I pull away looking for a way out, she opens the sex faucet to reel me back in.

the only thing different now is that I have a LOT more knowledge today than I did 10 or 15 years ago. I also no longer allow myself to be manipulated. She was extremely good at that and I now know all of her tricks. She can’t get anything by me these days because I know what she is doing. The ultimatum would have been handed out 18 years ago if I could have understood what was going on.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> The ultimatum would have been handed out 18 years ago if I could have understood what was going on.


That is the thing, there was a lack of information and a lot of the cliches and stereotypes tell you what you’re experiencing is normal. 

In a way it is normal, I posted that article the other day that said 1/4 couples under 60 is in a clinical dead bedroom. If you include people like me who weren’t in a clinical dead bedroom but were not having the amount of sex they wanted I’m sure it would be much higher.

The great realization which may take a long time to get to is that you don’t need to tolerate it and you can just leave.

If you’re a traditional person who hates failing at things this state can take a while to develop. Once you have been there though it’s a very simple calculation and it’s not hard to maintain.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> The great realization which may take a long time to get to is that you don’t need to tolerate it and you can just leave.


Often followed by the secondary realization that leaving is no guarantee of a fix. Or, if you fix that problem, you trade it for another equally irritating.

The prevailing notion here often seems to be that you can have everything if only you are willing to keep trading up for it. The success rate of second marriages and beyond would seem to tell a different tale.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Often followed by the secondary realization that leaving is no guarantee of a fix. Or, if you fix that problem, you trade it for another equally irritating.
> 
> The prevailing notion here often seems to be that you can have everything if only you are willing to keep trading up for it. The success rate of second marriages and beyond would seem to tell a different tale.


Maybe, I don’t know because I didn’t execute it.

Once I snapped out of it and saw the situation for what it was I viewed it as having nothing to lose. I am pretty sure it wouldn’t have been difficult for me to be having more sex. Whether I would have been happier or not, who knows?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> That is the thing, there was a lack of information and a lot of the cliches and stereotypes tell you what you’re experiencing is normal.
> 
> In a way it is normal, I posted that article the other day that said 1/4 couples under 60 is in a clinical dead bedroom. If you include people like me who weren’t in a clinical dead bedroom but were not having the amount of sex they wanted I’m sure it would be much higher.
> 
> ...


It’s one of the main reasons that keeps me coming back to TAM. 

I don’t want to see men (or women) be like me. Arm yourself with knowledge. Don’t fall for manipulation tactics that used to make you feel like this is “normal”. It isn’t. Dead bedrooms by spouses that don’t want to have sex but certainly like all the other things that come along with marriage is extremely selfish behavior.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> i can honestly say “no”. Getting after it after 1 or 2 months would not have changed a thing with the way she acts.
> 
> we’ve actually been through this multiple times before. I pull away looking for a way out, she opens the sex faucet to reel me back in.
> 
> the only thing different now is that I have a LOT more knowledge today than I did 10 or 15 years ago. I also no longer allow myself to be manipulated. She was extremely good at that and I now know all of her tricks. She can’t get anything by me these days because I know what she is doing. The ultimatum would have been handed out 18 years ago if I could have understood what was going on.


Do you think her periods of turning off the faucet were a result of a loss of attraction or something else?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> We do exactly that. I'm 50, wife is 53 and our 32nd anniversary is next month. We regularly go see local bands, dance and party, and yes have hot sex when we get home. We've even done it in the parking lot, lol. The only thing we don't do is stay out to 3am, can't do that anymore. Those places we go to are filled with lots of people our age.


The only thing I might add is your situation is a bit different as you have been married so long.  Some of us are on marriage #2 and I think the dynamic is different.

By that I mean I think long term married couples seem to care more about maintaining the marriage no matter what it takes than the rest of us. And go and do things just like you mentioned.

I was married 20 years the first time and now going on 10 years this round (I am near your age) and I really don't care about this marriage anymore yet was pretty devastated when the 20 year marriage broke up.

Maybe thats just me thinking.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Often followed by the secondary realization that leaving is no guarantee of a fix. Or, if you fix that problem, you trade it for another equally irritating.
> 
> The prevailing notion here often seems to be that you can have everything if only you are willing to keep trading up for it. The success rate of second marriages and beyond would seem to tell a different tale.


Agreed at least for me as my second marriage is less fulfilling in many ways versus my first.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Often followed by the secondary realization that leaving is no guarantee of a fix. Or, if you fix that problem, you trade it for another equally irritating.
> 
> The prevailing notion here often seems to be that you can have everything if only you are willing to keep trading up for it. The success rate of second marriages and beyond would seem to tell a different tale.


That's what the statistics say. However, people don't take those into account - they operate more on _hope _of something better. Removing yourself from a bad situation gives hope, whereas staying means giving up all hope. I've seen many successful second marriages, mine included. Someone has to be on the winning side of the statistics after all, and I _hope_ to stay there.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> The only thing I might add is your situation is a bit different as you have been married so long. Some of us are on marriage #2 and I think the dynamic is different.
> 
> By that I mean I think long term married couples seem to care more about maintaining the marriage no matter what it takes than the rest of us. And go and do things just like you mentioned.
> 
> ...


I think there is some merit to this. I don't know if it is just time in marriage though and I think the same could be achieved in a 2nd marriage. I think it really comes down to selflessly caring about your spouse and marriage and willingness to work together. That could occur at year 1 or 41. My wife and I both have things we do that don't involve each other. I have my hobbies and she has hers. However they take a back seat to anything we want to do together. 

Quite some time ago I decided I would not say no to something my wife wanted to do together with me and/or the kids. I may suggest tweaks and changes, but I'm always receptive to the idea. My thought is if she wants to spend time with me it is my duty as a husband to say yes. She has always reciprocated. It is that willingness to do something for the other person that is key. I think that can occur at any point in the marriage. Many days I wonder if I hit the wife lottery, lol. I can't tell if she is just the way she is or if it is in response to my actions and words. Maybe both. All I know is I'm glad it is the way it is. It makes doing things for and with her a lot easier and more enjoyable when you get positive feedback and reciprocated effort.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

LATERILUS79 said:


> It’s one of the main reasons that keeps me coming back to TAM.
> 
> I don’t want to see men (or women) be like me. Arm yourself with knowledge. Don’t fall for manipulation tactics that used to make you feel like this is “normal”. It isn’t. Dead bedrooms by spouses that don’t want to have sex but certainly like all the other things that come along with marriage is extremely selfish behavior.


Except it _is_ normal. In general, a man’s level of desire stays fairly constant while a woman’s wanes as the relationship goes on. What is the real shame is that we do a poor job of letting young men know what to expect as the honeymoon phase ends. As well as preparing our sons and daughters with the tools they will need to navigate their marriages when the inevitable happens.









How Sexual Desire Changes After Marriage


... and why less happiness is a bigger problem than less sex.




www.psychologytoday.com


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Quite some time ago I decided I would not say no to something my wife wanted to do together with me and/or the kids.


This = dead bedroom fix for me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> only when she can feel that I’m on my way out does she change her tune. Thing is these days I don’t allow us to ever get comfortable again. I have to keep her on her toes 100% of the time or she will revert. This of course builds a crap ton of resentment inside of me for her. Something I’m looking forward to addressing in MC.


I am glad you are going to address this in MC, because this is NOT how a connected, caring relationship is supposed to function.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

ccpowerslave said:


> This = dead bedroom fix for me.


Not me. All that resulted in was 100% of free time was filled with what she wanted to do.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> *Except it is normal. In general, a man’s level of desire stays fairly constant while a woman’s wanes as the relationship goes on.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily agree with this.....

I think its about 50/50....Id say the reasons for the waning may be different, but I don't really see a big disparity gender wise..


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I am glad you are going to address this in MC, because this is NOT how a connected, caring relationship is supposed to function.


Agreed.

my wife and I love each other very much, but we all know that love isn’t enough. Some things need to be addressed and communicated thoroughly so that both people can get to a better place for themselves and together with their partner. I am definitely looking forward to doing MC with my wife, but you already know this about me, LD. 😁


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Except it _is_ normal. In general, a man’s level of desire stays fairly constant while a woman’s wanes as the relationship goes on. What is the real shame is that we do a poor job of letting young men know what to expect as the honeymoon phase ends. As well as preparing our sons and daughters with the tools they will need to navigate their marriages when the inevitable happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something I thought was interesting in the article is that BOTH husband's and wife's satisfaction with their marriage declines along with the wife's sexual desire. It would seem they should have some self interest in working to keep their desire level high.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> This = dead bedroom fix for me.


See, to me this seems like "hoop jumping:


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> See, to me this seems like "hoop jumping:


I guess. Sometimes it is and other times it isn’t.

When I was arriving at the place I’m at I listened to some lectures by Doctor Professor Jordan Peterson who basically said, “say yes more” to paraphrase. Sometimes it sucks but other times it’s not bad and can actually be fun.

To give you an example, if I do something my wife wants that takes all day, what did I miss out on? Most likely getting drunk or stoned, watching TV, or playing video games.

In the worst case where I hate every second of doing what she wants, our overall relationship is better on a daily and second to second basis and I didn’t watch that Iron Maiden concert for the 2000th time and drink a 12 pack of Coors Lite which I certainly don’t need.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> See, to me this seems like "hoop jumping:


If you are doing things FOR her in hopes to get something in return then yes, that is hoop jumping. However, if you are doing something WITH her that is a different story. I am getting something in return for that just by participating. I'm spending quality time with her and/or the family. IME that makes my wife desire me more. That is a happy bonus since I already got something out of the whole experience.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you are doing things FOR her in hopes to get something in return then yes, that is hoop jumping. However, if you are doing something WITH her that is a different story. I am getting something in return for that just by participating. I'm spending quality time with her and/or the family. IME that makes my wife desire me more. That is a happy bonus since I already got something out of the whole experience.


As long as she is giving you the same consideration than I agree with that


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> As long as she is giving you the same consideration than I agree with that


My wife would never fly out of state to see a Lamb of God concert on her own. 😈


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Numb26 said:


> As long as she is giving you the same consideration than I agree with that


So its not hoop jumping if it works?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> So its not hoop jumping if it works?


They way he explained it, I wouldn't say he considers it hoop jumping.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Numb26 said:


> They way he explained it, I wouldn't say he considers it hoop jumping.


Because it’s working. Unless he would be just as happy doing all those things on the birthday/Christmas marital missionary plan. But the whole implication was that saying yes more results in more sexy time.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

T


DownButNotOut said:


> Because it’s working. Unless he would be just as happy doing all those things on the birthday/Christmas marital missionary plan. But the whole implication was that saying yes more results in more sexy time.


That was my initial thought which is why I commented.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> Not me. All that resulted in was 100% of free time was filled with what she wanted to do.


Sounds like she took the ball and ran with it. Moderation is everything.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> See, to me this seems like "hoop jumping:


Not everyone is meant to be a partner for long. 

But this is where ideally, you marry someone you have activities and interests in common with besides sex so you don't hate doing things together. I think that's very important. Like, in Texas, of course, most guys are sports crazy. I hate sports, so I felt very left out if that was their main interest and stuck with music people or artists for the most part.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> See, to me this seems like "hoop jumping:


I agree.
It also depends on context -- if you are doing something to GIVE to someone, it's a gift...if you are doing something to EARN something back, it's hoop jumping.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Not everyone is meant to be a partner for long.
> 
> But this is where ideally, you marry someone you have activities and interests in common with besides sex so you don't hate doing things together. I think that's very important. Like, in Texas, of course, most guys are sports crazy. I hate sports, so I felt very left out if that was their main interest and stuck with music people or artists for the most part.


This didn't work for me - when my sexual needs weren't being met, I wasn't very interested in sharing activities with him.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> This didn't work for me - when my sexual needs weren't being met, I wasn't very interested in sharing activities with him.


I shouldn't have to bargain, or bater, or scheme to get my partner to have sex. Will never do that


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

The point is, at least in my case it’s not transactional. I don’t do X so she does Y. It’s a downstream consequence of that she isn’t resentful of how selfish and rigid I am.

In the spirit of the lectures I listened to, the point is to not be closed off from opportunity. All the time we’re presented with opportunities. In the past I did whatever I felt like when I felt like it and didn’t give a rats ass what anyone else thought about it. I still mostly do that, but now, sometimes… when my wife suggests hey I want to do X, instead of immediately crapping on it or coming up with a reason not to do it I just say yes and don’t think about it.

Life has improved.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> This didn't work for me - when my sexual needs weren't being met, I wasn't very interested in sharing activities with him.


Well I think just about everyone would agree that you're an exception to the rule.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well I think just about everyone would agree that you're an exception to the rule.


Ouch...Lol!! Just kidding!

Maybe, but although I am different than many women when it comes to sex, I still see it more of a human feeling - if you remove the specific details driving my feelings, the issue is pretty universal. It's just what my specific needs are (sexual). But I believe anyone who gets resentful that something they want/need isn't being provided the way they expect, then they withdraw.

Since the end of my marriage, I've pondered how strange it is that he was a pretty big jerk to me, and as long as my sexual needs were barely met, I let it go because I hardly noticed (unfortunately). But as soon as the sex stopped, I realized that I didn't like ANYTHING about him.

I don't know why. And I'm a little nervous about it happening again.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> This didn't work for me - when my sexual needs weren't being met, I wasn't very interested in sharing activities with him.


So why do you get pretty aggressive when someone's need for connection like shared activities or conversation is ignored and they don't feel like having sex. Isn't that mean you understand your situation but don't understand that other peoples need effect if they are interested in activities (like sex)?

Just wondering if you can see the other side of it?


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> I shouldn't have to bargain, or bater, or scheme to get my partner to have sex. Will never do that


So your partner should have sex with agreed (in theory)
Should you make connections with them?


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> So your partner should have sex with agreed (in theory)
> Should you make connections with them?


If the connection is there why would anyone need to hoop jump?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Ouch...Lol!! Just kidding!
> 
> Maybe, but although I am different than many women when it comes to sex, I still see it more of a human feeling - if you remove the specific details driving my feelings, the issue is pretty universal. It's just what my specific needs are (sexual). But I believe anyone who gets resentful that something they want/need isn't being provided the way they expect, then they withdraw.
> 
> ...


Yes, that is scary.. you just prioritize more like men do. I imagine it gets them in a little trouble once in a while too but it's not as scary as when you're a woman. So you have to be careful..


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> If the connection is there why would anyone need to hoop jump?


So you consider making any kind of conscious effort to stay connected a hoop.

well I guess that is one way to look at it. I never wanted to watch star wars. I didn't mind watching it. But it was something I did to stay connected to my husband. I didn't find it hard I naturally want to spend time with him. But it was a conscious choice. I guess I'm a hoop jumper.

How long have you been married Numb26? divorced ever?


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you consider making any kind of conscious effort to stay connected a hoop.
> 
> well I guess that is one way to look at it. I never wanted to watch star wars. I didn't mind watching it. But it was something I did to stay connected to my husband. I didn't find it hard I naturally want to spend time with him. But it was a conscious choice. I guess I'm a hoop jumper.
> 
> How long have you been married Numb26? divorced ever?


Did you do those things to get him to have sex with you?

@LATERILUS79 Yeah, I'm gonna let that one go. 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Did you do those things to get him to have sex with you?
> 
> @LATERILUS79 Yeah, I'm gonna let that one go. 🤣🤣🤣


Ok. I didn’t want to speak on your behalf.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Did you do those things to get him to have sex with you?
> 
> @LATERILUS79 Yeah, I'm gonna let that one go. 🤣🤣🤣


Yes they do. yes they do. More importantly they get me to have sex with him. We feel emotionally bonded which is needed at least on my end.

I wasn't trying to be snarky. I truly curious if you believe women will stay emotionally connected if you don't try. I would hope men also want an emotional connection but TAM has taught me they want sex as bonding.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes they do. yes they do. More importantly they get me to have sex with him. We feel emotionally bonded which is needed at least on my end.
> 
> I wasn't trying to be snarky. I truly curious if you believe women will stay emotionally connected if you don't try. I would hope men also want an emotional connection but TAM has taught me they want sex as bonding.


screw it. I’m just going to ask it.

Why don’t you believe sex is an emotional bond? Why do you think so lowly of men?


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Ouch...Lol!! Just kidding!
> 
> Maybe, but although I am different than many women when it comes to sex, I still see it more of a human feeling - if you remove the specific details driving my feelings, the issue is pretty universal. It's just what my specific needs are (sexual). But I believe anyone who gets resentful that something they want/need isn't being provided the way they expect, then they withdraw.
> 
> ...


I think if you know that sex effects you so much emotionally that you overlook things that can also be a way to stop it from happening. If you know it's a weakness hopefully you'll try harder to see the red flags.

But people do change. Maybe he was right for you when you married and change out of synch.

I'm sure you can find a loving healthy relationship. The biggest thing is you want to try and I think that is 1/2 the battle. Now just find someone else who wants to try and you are most the way there.


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes they do. yes they do. More importantly they get me to have sex with him. We feel emotionally bonded which is needed at least on my end.
> 
> I wasn't trying to be snarky. I truly curious if you believe women will stay emotionally connected if you don't try. I would hope men also want an emotional connection but TAM has taught me they want sex as bonding.


Most men use sex as bonding. Thought that was common knowledge.
That is were you and I differ, expecting someone to do things they don't like under the guise of "you aren't trying" is both manipulative and game playing.
I never expect anyone to do the things I enjoy UNLESS they enjoy it too. That's not connection, that's extortion


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> screw it. I’m just going to ask it.
> 
> Why don’t you believe sex is an emotional bond? Why do you think so lowly of men?


I don't think lowly of men. I think women and men are different that's not the same a lowly.

I need an emotional bond. I'm willing to make choices to make and keep that bond daily.

I view sex as a result of a bond not the cause of one.

Why do you think that means I view men as lowly?


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I don't think lowly of men. I think women and men are different that's not the same a lowly.
> 
> I need an emotional bond. I'm willing to make choices to make and keep that bond daily.
> 
> ...


If you don't view sex as causing a bond between two people then I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Most men use sex as bonding. Thought that was common knowledge.
> That is were you and I differ, expecting someone to do things they don't like under the guise of "you aren't trying" is both manipulative and game playing.
> I never expect anyone to do the things I enjoy UNLESS they enjoy it too. That's not connection, that's extortion


That's one view but to think that for 50 years two people will always want to do the same exact things is crazy.

Thinking that not spending time together will keep a bond strong is also crazy.

I didn't say I hated star wars if I did I wouldn't go. But if I was sitting on the couch thinking what do I want to watch tonight it wouldn't be star wars.

Most of the long term marriages who have spoken on this thread talk about doing things specifically to help their relationship. 

I think keeping your relationship in the front of your mind makes for a stronger one. And If I'm making the choice to go to star wars without him ever saying I have to I don't know how that is manipulative or game playing.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> I don't think lowly of men. I think women and men are different that's not the same a lowly.
> 
> I need an emotional bond. I'm willing to make choices to make and keep that bond daily.
> 
> ...


You said that you would hope men would want an emotional connection, but TAM has taught you that men want bonding through sex (don’t know why this has not come across you prior to TAM).
This sentence from you implies that men are incapable of emotionally bonding and can only do “sex bonding”. From this I gather you think less of men because you don’t think them as capable of creating emotional bonds - but I don’t understand why you just glossed over that sex is an emotional bond. Why do you think we are just animals looking to ejaculate? Pretty sure I know many women on this forum that would strongly agree with me that sex is an emotional bond, hence, men are very capable of making emotional bonds.

you can say that you didn’t intend for your words to read that way, but I have a feeling I’m not the only one that made the interpretation that I did after reading that sentence.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> If you don't view sex as causing a bond between two people then I don't know what to tell you.


I accept men bond while having sex. For me is an expression of my bond. That we have it does strengthen it (mostly). 

But if I have sex with some random guy it doesn't bond me. 

Frankly men speak out of both sides because they often talk about doing some hot girl (like in a movie) that isnt bonding that is just lust.

then they talk about the want to bond with their wives. Is that bonding or lust? As a woman I can't tell. Growing up society said it was just lust and wanting to get in my pants. I acknowledge that men I respect on TAM have convinced me it is bonding for them.

Why is it that people can accept men and women are different but not accept we experience sex differently?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> I accept men bond while having sex. For me is an expression of my bond. That we have it does strengthen it (mostly).
> 
> But if I have sex with some random guy it doesn't bond me.
> 
> ...


I absolutely accept that men and women experience sex differently. I learned that lesson the hard way.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You said that you would hope men would want an emotional connection, but TAM has taught you that men want bonding through sex (don’t know why this has not come across you prior to TAM).
> This sentence from you implies that men are incapable of emotionally bonding and can only do “sex bonding”. From this I gather you think less of men because you don’t think them as capable of creating emotional bonds - but I don’t understand why you just glossed over that sex is an emotional bond. Why do you think we are just animals looking to ejaculate? Pretty sure I know many women on this forum that would strongly agree with me that sex is an emotional bond, hence, men are very capable of making emotional bonds.
> 
> you can say that you didn’t intend for your words to read that way, but I have a feeling I’m not the only one that made the interpretation that I did after reading that sentence.


I don't intend for my words to be read that way. I don't think.
First there are plenty of men that have had plenty of sex and I don't think they were emotionally bonded to all of the women. My point is I would hope that a person in a long term relationship would want to be emotionally bonded to that person. I would think that would involve liking their character, actions and other things that make up a human other than sex. I mean you could theoretically have sex with a plastic sex doll and you aren't emotionally bond. Men masturbate and aren't emotionally bonded to their hand. I'm talking about having activities outside of the bedroom that build your relationship. 

I think for many women not all. We expect to have that outside the bedroom relationship to feel sexy to feel like sexual bonding can occur. Having sex with my husband is bonding. But if all we did was have sex and he didn't speak to my other love languages which are time and acts of service I don't think I'd stay bonded.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

are @Numb26 and @LATERILUS79 saying that if they were in a LTR and having sex everyday but not talking, spending time together or the other person was doing things that specifically drove them crazy that they would stay bonded and never leave?

I mean sexual bonding has limits. I think for women those are different than for men but surely men have some? Otherwise you'd never leave someone you are having sex with. That could be true for the ones who have only had sex with their current wife but someone like @ConanHub had lots of sex but didn't keep them all right?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> are @Numb26 and @LATERILUS79 saying that if they were in a LTR and having sex everyday but not talking, spending time together or the other person was doing things that specifically drove them crazy that they would stay bonded and never leave?
> 
> I mean sexual bonding has limits. I think for women those are different than for men but surely men have some? Otherwise you'd never leave someone you are having sex with. That could be true for the ones who have only had sex with their current wife but someone like @ConanHub had lots of sex but didn't keep them all right?


That wasn't the original topic we were talking about. The topic was, is doing things the your partner likes but you don't just to score in the bedroom considered hoop jumping. Nobody mention not talking or spending time together. You can spend time together AND do your own thing. If my partner does something with me that I know they don't enjoy I know they are trying to score points for something.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You said that you would hope men would want an emotional connection, but TAM has taught you that men want bonding through sex (don’t know why this has not come across you prior to TAM).


And even though I think this was just a snarky dig I will answer it because I think it is important for these discussions to be hAs iad.

I haven't had sex with many men. My husband has never pushed sex as bonding or discussed it in that way. Society in general but specifically when I was a teen taught us men will have sex with just about any woman who say yes. I think for some single men that is still true. We see movies and memes about men trying to get a high body count, there was the Fonz when I was young and other characters who often got laid and they weren't in it for the bonding.

I've never thought sex with my husband is a bad thing and of course know that sex is important in a marriage. Until I was late 30's I didn't really think or analyze our sex life. We had sex. that was it. As I got older and my marriage matured I got more interested in the topic of sex. At some point in trying to make sex more fun and exciting I stumbled on TAM while trying to find a good sex swing or if they were worth the effort.

I really don't know why you think it so absurd I didn't know this before coming to a place that discusses it regularly. Did your mom or other women in your life ever have a discussion about sex and bonding?

ETA: because when I was a teen the main themes were
Don't get raped (because some men will bond without your permission)
Don't get pregnant ( because some men don't stick around after bonding with you)
Guard your virtual (because many men won't want you after that much bonding)
Don't get an STD (bonding is dangerous to your health HIV is real)

Does any of that sound bonding? Does any of that sound like a way to start a sexually healthy relationship. Because many of those same things are spouted still today. We at least now have some better conversations with young ladies about good sex and stuff.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> That wasn't the original topic we were talking about. The topic was, is doing things the your partner likes but you don't just to score in the bedroom considered hoop jumping. Nobody mention not talking or spending time together. You can spend time together AND do your own thing. If my partner does something with me that I know they don't enjoy I know they are trying to score points for something.


Except many of the people you were responding to wasn't really talking about doing it just to score. They were talking about doing it to improve the relationship which often times mean your score more. 

because if women are emotionally bonded to you then they are more open to being sexually bonded to you.

You pretty much said you wouldn't do anything that you didn't want to.

So maybe I misunderstood.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> That wasn't the original topic we were talking about. The topic was, is doing things the your partner likes but you don't just to score in the bedroom considered hoop jumping. Nobody mention not talking or spending time together. You can spend time together AND do your own thing. If my partner does something with me that I know they don't enjoy I know they are trying to score points for something.


There is a difference between things they don't enjoy and things they wouldn't pick themselves.
You are also missing one of my biggest points on the star wars. I enjoy spending time with my husband and then having something fun to talk bout after the movie. I don't hate the movies they are ok. I just wouldn't randomly pick them.

Frankly I would do all kinds of semi unpleasant things to spend more time with my husband. I don't care I just like being around him. If we never had shared experiences we wouldn't have much in common.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> are @Numb26 and @LATERILUS79 saying that if they were in a LTR and having sex everyday but not talking, spending time together or the other person was doing things that specifically drove them crazy that they would stay bonded and never leave?
> 
> I mean sexual bonding has limits. I think for women those are different than for men but surely men have some? Otherwise you'd never leave someone you are having sex with. That could be true for the ones who have only had sex with their current wife but someone like @ConanHub had lots of sex but didn't keep them all right?


I haven't been following the conversation but for data, I had a lot of very short term partners before meeting my wife.

I bonded with Mrs. C immediately and it just got stronger over the years.

This example may apply to what you're talking about.

The most incredible partner (sexually) I had before meeting my wife was a rotten human with the emotional depth of spit on the sidewalk. I was glad to be rid of her even though she was physically amazing and we had unparalleled sexual compatibility.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I haven't been following the conversation but for data, I had a lot of very short term partners before meeting my wife.
> 
> I bonded with Mrs. C immediately and it just got stronger over the years.
> 
> ...


That does play into the current point I was trying to make.

While men do bond sexually they can also have sex without bonding. Women usually are more emotionally bonded by things that happen BEFORE sex. Sex is just a cherry on the top so to speak. There were men who got really mad at me for not saying sex is the way men bond. 

You seemed to be a good example of yes it being bonding but not everything. I do hope you love Mrs. C for other things as well. I sure seems like you do.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I haven't been following the conversation but for data, I had a lot of very short term partners before meeting my wife.
> 
> I bonded with Mrs. C immediately and it just got stronger over the years.
> 
> ...


So you are in a long term successful relationship do you ever do things specifically to keep the outside of the bedroom bond strong? Things that you wouldn't just wake up and do if your wife wasn't there? I have no idea what that would be for you but watching a sappy movie comes to mind or pre-starting her car in the winter.

Do you consider that hoop jumping or relationship building?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> That does play into the current point I was trying to make.
> 
> While men do bond sexually they can also have sex without bonding. Women usually are more emotionally bonded by things that happen BEFORE sex. Sex is just a cherry on the top so to speak. There were men who got really mad at me for not saying sex is the way men bond.
> 
> You seemed to be a good example of yes it being bonding but not everything. I do hope you love Mrs. C for other things as well. I sure seems like you do.


LoL! If our first go at it was an audition, I think we both would have failed!

I love her for everything aside from sex, though she is a sexy little brat too!🙂


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you are in a long term successful relationship do you ever do things specifically to keep the outside of the bedroom bond strong? Things that you wouldn't just wake up and do if your wife wasn't there? I have no idea what that would be for you but watching a sappy movie comes to mind or pre-starting her car in the winter.
> 
> Do you consider that hoop jumping or relationship building?


I have to drive in L.A. traffic for a while but I'll get back to you on this.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> This didn't work for me - when my sexual needs weren't being met, I wasn't very interested in sharing activities with him.


Yep. When my wife says "No" I pretty much want nothing to do with her and go do something on my own, even if its just sitting watching TV.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> The point is, at least in my case it’s not transactional. I don’t do X so she does Y. It’s a downstream consequence of that she isn’t resentful of how selfish and rigid I am.
> 
> In the spirit of the lectures I listened to, the point is to not be closed off from opportunity. All the time we’re presented with opportunities. In the past I did whatever I felt like when I felt like it and didn’t give a rats ass what anyone else thought about it. I still mostly do that, but now, sometimes… when my wife suggests hey I want to do X, instead of immediately crapping on it or coming up with a reason not to do it I just say yes and don’t think about it.
> 
> Life has improved.


Well you mentioned your wife showed up to bed the other night in lingerie. I think that by itself shows she is interested. So whatever you may have done earlier that day may have "inspired" her but it wasn't making a "concession" to her.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Most men use sex as bonding. Thought that was common knowledge.
> That is were you and I differ, expecting someone to do things they don't like under the guise of "you aren't trying" is both manipulative and game playing.
> I never expect anyone to do the things I enjoy UNLESS they enjoy it too. That's not connection, that's extortion


I think in a successful marriage you need to allow yourself to enjoy those things you do with your wife, even if they weren't your choice to do. Just like a responsive desire spouse needs to give the spontaneous one a chance to turn them on. You have to give your spouse's desires a chance too.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> I absolutely accept that men and women experience sex differently. I learned that lesson the hard way.


🧐


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well you mentioned your wife showed up to bed the other night in lingerie. I think that by itself shows she is interested. So whatever you may have done earlier that day may have "inspired" her but it wasn't making a "concession" to her.


Yeah I think in my case there were a great many things but she still has deep resentment about me not wanting to travel in the past and having her go off with friends or in some cases by herself.

So I don’t do that anymore.

What did it cost me? Well nothing really just some time.

Even still I catch myself trying to make her do things how I want. It’s hard because my job involves getting people to do exactly what I tell them, and I do it for long hours almost every day.

As for that particular day she intended to bang from the early morning as she put it on then and wore it all day.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> If the connection is there why would anyone need to hoop jump?


The connection will be much better if you have interests in common. You have interesting hobbies and interests too. It would just give a relationship a lot more dimension so it's not just sex and housework and bill paying!


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> No idea who or what Mead is. I mean I know Mead is an alcoholic drink made with honey. But it doesn't seem to be what you are referring to.


Le Sigh...
Margeret Mead. One of the mothers of modern feminism. Also, although ALL OF HER WORK was completely debunked in her lifetime, is somehow relevant in the social sciences today. The fact that that you don't know the reference to her, well.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

AandM said:


> Le Sigh...
> Margeret Mead. One of the mothers of modern feminism. Also, although ALL OF HER WORK was completely debunked in her lifetime, is somehow relevant in the social sciences today. The fact that that you don't know the reference to her, well.


Well I guess I’m a terrible feminist. Sorry to once again disappoint you.

sigh there are other threads. Just saying. Since this-one doesn’t meet you lofty internet reading


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## pippo (Jan 12, 2022)

In Absentia said:


> I think most men get into marriages with the wrong idea.


Probably goes for women as well. Famously said: "Women marry men thinking they will change, men marry women thinking they will never change, In the end, they are both disappointed".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you are in a long term successful relationship do you ever do things specifically to keep the outside of the bedroom bond strong? Things that you wouldn't just wake up and do if your wife wasn't there? I have no idea what that would be for you but watching a sappy movie comes to mind or pre-starting her car in the winter.
> 
> Do you consider that hoop jumping or relationship building?


I think I understand and we do things specifically for each other all the time.

We are always thinking of each other and it shows outwardly with actions.

I can't really compare us to a thought line like "hoop jumping" and our marriage is maintained, partially, as a result of our thoughtfulness outside of the bedroom but we do for each other because we love each other and don't really think about it as relationship building.

We have put in years though and she learned to love mma fights while I learned to love Jane Austen.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> And even though I think this was just a snarky dig I will answer it because I think it is important for these discussions to be hAs iad.


Who knows? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. 


Anastasia6 said:


> I haven't had sex with many men. My husband has never pushed sex as bonding or discussed it in that way. Society in general but specifically when I was a teen taught us men will have sex with just about any woman who say yes. I think for some single men that is still true. We see movies and memes about men trying to get a high body count, there was the Fonz when I was young and other characters who often got laid and they weren't in it for the bonding.


You keep only saying "bonding". You continually remove the word "emotional", and reading many of your posts over the last year I believe you are doing it on purpose in order to belittle men. Sex is an emotional bond. I'm well aware that sex is also a physical bond. You are dead set on making sure sex can't be an emotional bond. 

Yes, I'm well aware that sex can be had by people and no bond form. You know which other love languages can be had with no bond form? ALL OF THEM. For example, I can give a gift or do an act of service for someone and form no emotional bond with them. See how that can happen? You center on sex because it gives you a way to attack men. 



Anastasia6 said:


> I really don't know why you think it so absurd I didn't know this before coming to a place that discusses it regularly. Did your mom or other women in your life ever have a discussion about sex and bonding?


Don't know what you are referring to here. I was talking about how you said you didn't know that men bonded (and I will add emotionally) through sex before coming to TAM. Don't know why I would need to learn that from my mother. That makes no sense to me. I'm going to assuming I wasn't clear on my statement before. That one is on me. 


Anastasia6 said:


> ETA: because when I was a teen the main themes were
> Don't get raped (because some men will bond without your permission)
> Don't get pregnant ( because some men don't stick around after bonding with you)
> Guard your virtual (because many men won't want you after that much bonding)
> Don't get an STD (bonding is dangerous to your health HIV is real)


This right here is awful....... just awful. 

I get. You follow the feminist ideology, but this right here is disgusting and insulting to men.I am repulsed by this. Imagine in today's society if a man said something comparable to your statements about women. We are all well aware what would happen.

Bad people exist in this world. Men and women. You are relating the emotional bond that MANY men build with their wives/significant others with rape, unwanted pregnancies and STDs. 

Not even close to the same thing and you know it. 


Anastasia6 said:


> Does any of that sound bonding? Does any of that sound like a way to start a sexually healthy relationship. Because many of those same things are spouted still today. We at least now have some better conversations with young ladies about good sex and stuff.


If you don't understand that men can get an emotional bond from sex, so be it. It's no sweat off my back.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

thunderchad said:


> Duh. Most women are happiest being a wife and stay at home mom. When you make a woman act like a man and get a career and provide for the family.she resents that and the sex goes down.


This is a wild generalization. I can see it being true if the woman would prefer to stay home and you don't make a lot so she has to work, but most women I know work because they prefer.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Who knows? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
> 
> You keep only saying "bonding". You continually remove the word "emotional", and reading many of your posts over the last year I believe you are doing it on purpose in order to belittle men. Sex is an emotional bond. I'm well aware that sex is also a physical bond. You are dead set on making sure sex can't be an emotional bond.
> 
> ...


Wow if you could get past trying to be offended you might be able to hear what I am saying.

I'll tackle just the last part for now.

The part you find disgusting isn't what I think. IT's what SOCIETY tells girls. It is what the influences on my life said when I was a teen and dating. I added parenthesis to show how 'someone like me' may not have understood the emotional bonding of sex until I came to TAM. It isn't one of my love languages so it didn't occur to me that it was someone elses. I didn't study relationships and bonding before getting married. I was explaining my life and that for thousands of women. Do you know colleges still put on forums on how not to get raped. And they have to because it still happens A LOT. Am I implying all men are bad NO. I am saying our experiences are what shape how we process the world. You are sitting there wondering and denigrating me because when I was young I didn't understand sex was emotionally bonding.... I don't understand where you think I would have learned it from. 

On the flip side I was adding that those whose primary language isn't physical touch may wish to bond in other way.

And for the love of GOD I am not trying to bash men. If I try to explain why some of the women in the world may not want to bond sexually if they haven't bonded outside the bedroom because their love language is different it doesn't mean I hate men.

IN FACT I was hoping to have a conversation which might be able to help the men who don't understand women's point of view so they can be more like CCpowerslave and meet both people's needs. He has learned more about how to speak to her love language and she speaks more to his now. I would think it would be good if more relationships could work that way without someone thinking it is man hating or hoop jumping.

BUT we made it 14 pages before it when to **** so I guess that was more than one could expect. We also made it almost 14 pages before the old trite one liners come out.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I think I understand and we do things specifically for each other all the time.
> 
> We are always thinking of each other and it shows outwardly with actions.
> 
> ...


I guess you can think of it however you want. I don't sit around and say how can I build a better relationship for the most part. I do love my husband and try to keep him in mind when most of my decisions are made. I naturally like being around him and making him happy. But just like you I have then done things or found interests I never would have found on my own.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)




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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> how to speak to her love language and she speaks more to his now


Honestly I have thought about this a lot. She has never taken a quiz to identify what hers are.

I think really she would be quality time and words of affirmation. 

Interestingly words of affirmation I kind of noticed from how she reacts to them from other people and not from me. I still think my words of affirmation for her fall flat as words, she actually wants actions of affirmation from me and she’s happy with words from other people. 

To give an example I can see her do something and tell her that was amazing and I’m proud of you. She will react 1-2/10. If instead she says something and ordinarily my reaction would be to pump the brakes and question it but instead I go along with it immediately and then later say that was amazing I’m proud of you, then she will react 7-10/10.

Quality time for her is also different for her than it is for me even though it is one we share. In her case what she really wants to do is go on adventures. So skipping an adventure is not delivering the quality time she wants. My requirements are comparatively simple, I just want her to stop working and watch TV and eat dinner. So I’m generally happy with 2-3 hours of quality time per day. She wants long uninterrupted stretches of time like a whole day, a weekend, a week, or even a couple weeks.

What I learned is by not doing that for her it really pissed her off and caused a lot of resentment. She is still mad about it even now from years before.

I am not mad about our long dry spell, it was at least 50% my fault. Of course she has some of the same selfish behavior as I do, I rubbed off on her so to speak.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I guess I’m a terrible feminist. Sorry to once again disappoint you.
> 
> sigh there are other threads. Just saying. Since this-one doesn’t meet you lofty internet reading


I DO love proper diction and decorum in any discussion I am in.

My point is: Anthroplogy = Ground Zero for the replication crisis.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Wife and I have been together for most of our lives. And neither of us has ever been intimate with anyone but one another. We bonded emotionally on our first date. We didnt bond sexually until 6 months of “going steady”. But we both knew by then that we wanted to spend our lives together.

We each have our own hobbies, but most activities we have always done as a couple. We always say if people see one of us they will see both of us.

Not sure how this relates to the bonding discussion.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Wife and I have been together for most of our lives. And neither of us has ever been intimate with anyone but one another. We bonded emotionally on our first date. We didnt bond sexually until 6 months of “going steady”. But we both knew by then that we wanted to spend our lives together.
> 
> We each have our own hobbies, but most activities we have always done as a couple. We always say if people see one of us they will see both of us.
> 
> Not sure how this relates to the bonding discussion.


I think it is actually a perfect example of bonding. We are like that too. We are like always together. We actually like being around each other.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Wife and I have been together for most of our lives. And neither of us has ever been intimate with anyone but one another. We bonded emotionally on our first date. We didnt bond sexually until 6 months of “going steady”. But we both knew by then that we wanted to spend our lives together.
> 
> We each have our own hobbies, but most activities we have always done as a couple. We always say if people see one of us they will see both of us.
> 
> Not sure how this relates to the bonding discussion.


So I do have a question. Do you think if you didn't spend much time around each other your wife would still want sex as much as she does? Does your time together effect her libido or do you think it is totally independent. Do you think if you choose to spend most night playing video games or drinking with the guys she'd still feel as loved as she does now?

ETA do you know her love languages?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> So I do have a question. Do you think if you didn't spend much time around each other your wife would still want sex as much as she does? Does your time together effect her libido or do you think it is totally independent. Do you think if you choose to spend most night playing video games or drinking with the guys she'd still feel as loved as she does now?
> 
> ETA do you know her love languages?


I know you were asking @Rus47 but I can tell you for sure that sex is more plentiful when we are regularly doing things together. There have been times when I would spend a lot of time playing video games and her sexual interest decline for sure. Or at least she was much more receptive when we spent more time together. With our kids mostly out of the house now, I put a lot more of my time into her and it has increased her sex drive. I don't know if it is the empty nest or the additional time we spend together, just the two of us. Probably a little. As I've said though, I've learned to really enjoy just about anything we do together. It is just a happy side effect that is seems to result in more affection too. I guess you could say I don't do things with my wife to score more with her, but I do score more with her when I do things for her. Does that make sense? lol


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> So I do have a question. Do you think if you didn't spend much time around each other your wife would still want sex as much as she does? Does your time together effect her libido or do you think it is totally independent. Do you think if you choose to spend most night playing video games or drinking with the guys she'd still feel as loved as she does now?
> 
> ETA do you know her love languages?


Early in our marriage I would sometimes play pool with male friends at a local tavern. But when our first child was born I stopped and never went back to it.

i think our intimacy is part and parcel of our overall relationship. We like one another and like spending time together. It might be sitting on the patio watching birds. It might be studying bible together, for sure we will be intimate with one another every day health permitting. Of course if we didnt spend time with one another living life, intimacy would suffer. I think our pair bond has a lot if different facets, the sexual bond is essential but not the only facet.

i dont know the love languages stuff.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I know you were asking @Rus47 but I can tell you for sure that sex is more plentiful when we are regularly doing things together. There have been times when I would spend a lot of time playing video games and her sexual interest decline for sure. Or at least she was much more receptive when we spent more time together. With our kids mostly out of the house now, I put a lot more of my time into her and it has increased her sex drive. I don't know if it is the empty nest or the additional time we spend together, just the two of us. Probably a little. As I've said though, I've learned to really enjoy just about anything we do together. It is just a happy side effect that is seems to result in more affection too. I guess you could say I don't do things with my wife to score more with her, but I do score more with her when I do things for her. Does that make sense? lol


Well thanks for answering. It makes perfect sense.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> This is a wild generalization. I can see it being true if the woman would prefer to stay home and you don't make a lot so she has to work, but most women I know work because they prefer.


It may be but there's data to support it.

Rates of depression of women have increased steadily as more worked outside the home. Depression rates and marital satisfaction rates are better in countries that have more traditional gender roles.

I dont know what the exact cause an effect is but the data is interesting.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Early in our marriage I would sometimes play pool with male friends at a local tavern. But when our first child was born I stopped and never went back to it.
> 
> i think our intimacy is part and parcel of our overall relationship. We like one another and like spending time together. It might be sitting on the patio watching birds. It might be studying bible together, for sure we will be intimate with one another every day health permitting. Of course if we didnt spend time with one another living life, intimacy would suffer. I think our pair bond has a lot if different facets, the sexual bond is essential but not the only facet.
> 
> i dont know the love languages stuff.


It's simple you get love languages (not sure but your top 2) They are simple the way you feel loved. For many men physical touch is number one. Many women have a different top choice. Mine is Time followed closely by acts of service. So the so called chore play works on me 

Words of Affirmation
Gifts
Physical Touch 
Time
Act of service


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Have we as an evolving society created the perfect storm for no sex in marriage?


I think yes and no. I think the main issue is compatibility. A woman who wants a career would be wise to not marry a man who has always envisioned having a wife who would stay at home. A man who doesn't want the pressure of being the sole earner should not marry a woman who wants to be a stay at home mom. 

I think society has certainly changed and we have a bunch of weaker men and a lot of women with unrealistic expectations. I think people seem to be more and more self centered even in marriage. 

The incompatibility issues can't be ignored for ever and people end up resentful over things they knew about the other person before they even got engaged.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Wow if you could get past trying to be offended you might be able to hear what I am saying.
> 
> I'll tackle just the last part for now.
> 
> ...


Wow, you talk a big game.

I see you said that you are a terrible feminist. Not in my opinion. You speak how I expect a feminist to speak.

teaching someone how not to get raped sounds like common sense to me. Are you expecting every person on this planet to be a good person? No? Then teaching common sense to people is a good thing. I plan on teaching my daughter how to minimize her chances of being sexually assaulted. Why? Because it makes good sense.

I also plan on teaching my son how to dodge feminists and what to look out for. I’ll teach him how NOT to get involved with girls that could take advantage of him and abuse the legal system against him. Why? Because it makes good sense.

most men and women are decent people. Some of them truly suck. It makes sense to prepare yourself for the ones that suck.

I don’t know why you need to teach men how to be ccpowerslave. That is extremely weird. What makes you think other men here haven’t learned or realized how to speak their wife’s love language? What makes you think I have no clue how to speak my wife’s love language? I talk about it ALL THE TIME (speak About someone NOT paying attention to posts and really reading them).


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

thunderchad said:


> It may be but there's data to support it.
> 
> Rates of depression of women have increased steadily as more worked outside the home. Depression rates and marital satisfaction rates are better in countries that have more traditional gender roles.
> 
> I dont know what the exact cause an effect is but the data is interesting.


Hmmm, maybe it is dependent on their satisfaction with their career, which is also a major cause of depression and anxiety in men. I think there are also a lot of women who struggle with the old grass is always greener problem. They stay at home but wanted a career and they feel unsatisfied, they have a career and they feel guilty because they're not at home with their kids. 

Another problem is with men who have wives who work but still do nothing around the house, still go spend 8 hours at the golf course every weekend, stop for drinks after work etc. Of course those women are going to be unhappy.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wow, you talk a big game.
> 
> I see you said that you are a terrible feminist. Not in my opinion. You speak how I expect a feminist to speak.
> 
> ...


Why do you assume I mean you when talking about society in general? There are some of us in long term marriages that work. Yours is fairly long term as well.

I’m saying as a society we don’t seem to understand many things about the opposite sex and how society has impacted them.

I did however think we could discuss this in some kind of rational manner.

the other solution is to think that marriages dissolve for no reason. That sex stops for no reason or dumb luck. But most in successful sexual relationships are responding with similar solutions and they involve both partners working to make the other know they are loved in a way that person hears.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Words of Affirmation
> Gifts
> Physical Touch
> Time
> Act of service


We took a "quiz" online and we are both Touch/Time/Affirmation 50/30/20. Not sure what that means.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> We took a "quiz" online and we are both Touch/Time/Affirmation 50/30/20. Not sure what that means.


If you both have the same love languages. To me (no expert) it probably means you understand more of what the other person finds to be attractive. 

For instance I don't understand the people who language is gifts. I wouldn't naturally 'speak' to them. If I was married to one and understood that is the way they 'hear' I love you I would likely try to be more cognizant of that and give more gifts or better gifts. If I didn't understand or never tried to speak their language I imagine over time my loved one wouldn't feel loved.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> We took a "quiz" online and we are both Touch/Time/Affirmation 50/30/20. Not sure what that means.


It means if you eat asparagus, the other will think your urine stinks.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I think I understand and we do things specifically for each other all the time.
> 
> We are always thinking of each other and it shows outwardly with actions.
> 
> ...


This is the essence of true love in my opinion. And THIS is exactly how sex should be between partners - instead of refusing, true loving partners would see having sex even when not "in the mood" as an act of giving to the person they love, as a GIFT and a way to maintain connection, and they would do it with joy and excitement.

When you truly love and CARE about your partner, you would never think of denying them something that makes them happy, just because you "don't feel like it". Exactly like you wouldn't deny them other things that make them happy.

In MY opinion, anyway.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> This is the essence of true love in my opinion. And THIS is exactly how sex should be between partners - instead of refusing, true loving partners would see having sex even when not "in the mood" as an act of giving to the person they love, as a GIFT and a way to maintain connection, and they would do it with joy and excitement.
> 
> When you truly love and CARE about your partner, you would never think of denying them something that makes them happy, just because you "don't feel like it". Exactly like you wouldn't deny them other things that make them happy.
> 
> In MY opinion, anyway.


I agree with this. But I've seen on these very forums people ignore the other stuff that makes partners happy but demand that sex should be given regardless.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> This is the essence of true love in my opinion. And THIS is exactly how sex should be between partners - instead of refusing, true loving partners would see having sex even when not "in the mood" as an act of giving to the person they love, as a GIFT and a way to maintain connection, and they would do it with joy and excitement.
> 
> When you truly love and CARE about your partner, you would never think of denying them something that makes them happy, just because you "don't feel like it". Exactly like you wouldn't deny them other things that make them happy.
> 
> In MY opinion, anyway.


Sadly, your opinion (while I agree with it very much!) is not always endorsed by other women...or at least not by the one I am married to


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> I agree with this. But I've seen on these very forums people ignore the other stuff that makes partners happy but demand that sex should be given regardless.


Which is of course not true but is certainly self-serving on their part.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> This is the essence of true love in my opinion. And THIS is exactly how sex should be between partners - instead of refusing, true loving partners would see having sex even when not "in the mood" as an act of giving to the person they love, as a GIFT and a way to maintain connection, and they would do it with joy and excitement.
> 
> When you truly love and CARE about your partner, you would never think of denying them something that makes them happy, just because you "don't feel like it". Exactly like you wouldn't deny them other things that make them happy.
> 
> In MY opinion, anyway.


Honestly Lisa Diane, in the real world people don't always get what they want every time they want it. And your partner would obviously not be placing your needs ahead of his by expecting sex when you're not wanting it, so I don't know why you would be placing his ahead of yours. That's a double standard. You think women should do that for men but you don't think men should do that for women. You're not doing women any favor promoting that one-sided edict.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which is of course not true but is certainly self-serving on their part.


Well I think some if it is context too.

If my wife says No to sex but then asks if I want to play a board game, I am most likely going to say No. One for spite but also for the idea if she doesn't have time for sex, than why does she have time to play a game? Childish on my part? Maybe but thats how I feel.

Now out of the blue if the wife asks if I want to play a game and I am just watching TV or something, I would agree as I enjoy that and don't feel like its "taking the place" of us having sex.

I might not be explaining it the best but you get the idea I hope.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Honestly Lisa Diane, in the real world people don't always get what they want every time they want it. And your partner would obviously not be placing your needs ahead of his by expecting sex when you're not wanting it, so I don't know why you would be placing his ahead of yours. That's a double standard. You think women should do that for men but you don't think men should do that for women. You're not doing women any favor promoting that one-sided edict.


But by the flip side, how many guys have ever said No when their wives initiated sex even if they weren't in the mood?
Maybe 3 in the history of mankind?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But by the flip side, how many guys have ever said No when their wives initiated sex even if they weren't in the mood?
> Maybe 3 in the history of mankind?


I did, more then she ever did.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But by the flip side, how many guys have ever said No when their wives initiated sex even if they weren't in the mood?
> Maybe 3 in the history of mankind?


Raises hand...😵‍💫


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well I think some if it is context too.
> 
> If my wife says No to sex but then asks if I want to play a board game, I am most likely going to say No. One for spite but also for the idea if she doesn't have time for sex, than why does she have time to play a game? Childish on my part? Maybe but thats how I feel.
> 
> ...


Well your reaction is very childish. Because it's not about she doesn't have time for sex. It's about she's not in the mood for sex and doesn't feel like having sex and isn't going to feel turned on to you while she's having sex at that moment. Women don't want to have sex with someone when they're not in the mood and also aren't in the mood if they are not super happy with their partner right at the moment as well as a lot of other reasons such as simply being tired or not having a great day or just their hormone cycling. Women aren't horny all the time. Get used to it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But by the flip side, how many guys have ever said No when their wives initiated sex even if they weren't in the mood?
> Maybe 3 in the history of mankind?


It happens. And if it doesn't women aren't going to cry like a baby about it. If a man is too tired, women don't think he should place himself second to satisfy them when they can just do it themselves. I had a boyfriend who would never do it in the morning. I asked once and he told me he's not a morning person for sex and that was the end of the subject. No resentment on my part. It's not like my left arm is broken.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Honestly Lisa Diane, in the real world people don't always get what they want every time they want it. And your partner would obviously not be placing your needs ahead of his by expecting sex when you're not wanting it, so I don't know why you would be placing his ahead of yours. That's a double standard. You think women should do that for men but you don't think men should do that for women. You're not doing women any favor promoting that one-sided edict.


Oh, but that's not true at all. I DO expect that for men as well...it's just that those situations don't come up as often here.

But I have told men, or the women married to them, that caring about eachother and meeting eachother's needs are how you have a loving relationship. And if you have a partner who doesn't care enough about you to meet your needs, then you don't have a truly loving relationship.

And I don't think that women alone should be having sex on demand...I am very vocal when MEN refuse to have sex with their partners as well. I am very vocal when someone's partner is mean, or uses drugs or alcohol, or spends all the money, or won't help around the house, etc etc.

I think you notice my sex posts more to the men, because it happens more, and I don't "pretty" up what I see happening. 
But I don't do that with anything (which is why my family dumped me years ago when my sister was cheating).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It happens. And if it doesn't women aren't going to cry like a baby about it. If a man is too tired, women don't think he should place himself second to satisfy them when they can just do it themselves. I had a boyfriend who would never do it in the morning. I asked once and he told me he's not a morning person for sex and that was the end of the subject. No resentment on my part. It's not like my left arm is broken.


Damn. Mornings are among my favorite times.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Raises hand...😵‍💫


Thank you for your honesty.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well I think some if it is context too.
> 
> If my wife says No to sex but then asks if I want to play a board game, I am most likely going to say No. One for spite but also for the idea if she doesn't have time for sex, than why does she have time to play a game? Childish on my part? Maybe but thats how I feel.
> 
> ...


I guess I just DO NOT understand playing games like this. If I had a partner who made me feel this bad all the time, and unloved enough that I wanted to get away from them and didn't want to connect with them, then any amount of money would be worth leaving them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh, but that's not true at all. I DO expect that for men as well...it's just that those situations don't come up as often here.
> 
> But I have told men, or the women married to them, that caring about eachother and meeting eachother's needs are how you have a loving relationship. And if you have a partner who doesn't care enough about you to meet your needs, then you don't have a truly loving relationship.
> 
> ...


No you do not expect it from men or you would expect men to respect when their women did not want to have sex with them, to honor and respect that even if it made them put themselves second for 10 minutes.

You place sex above everything else and think everyone ought to do it at the other person's convenience, but you have no care whatsoever for other needs that are more common even than sex such as simple respect.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No you do not expect it from men or you would expect men to respect when their women did not want to have sex with them, to honor and respect that even if it made them put themselves second for 10 minutes.


Nope. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

I am talking about meeting eachother's needs, not respecting a partner who wants to deny the other their needs repeatedly.

And I could say the same thing to you -- if you think women's choices to refuse sex should be respected as a need, then why aren't you supportive and think meeting needs for sex are just as important?

I mean, come on, we see the threads on here...I am not talking about partners who are refusing sex for true issues...I am talking about sexlessness for MONTHS and YEARS, while one partner is very unhappy about that.
Sure, everything in relationships ebb and flow, sex included. But I never call that unrepentant selfishness.

And let's be honest, most people who are refusing sex "just because" are very selfish in most other areas of their relationship as well.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Nope. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.
> 
> I am talking about meeting eachother's needs, not respecting a partner who wants to deny the other their needs repeatedly.
> 
> ...


Sorry but you're not selling me that crap. No one should have to perform sex and make it into a chore just because the other partner wants it when they want it and I don't care whether that other partner is male or female. We each have our own needs and none of us get what we want all the time. 

People who want sex with someone who isn't willing and isn't going to enjoy it right then and they want it anyway and can get off knowing they're making the partner unhappy and uncomfortable right then don't care about anyone except themselves. That is not love and devotion. That is abuse.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Thank you for your honesty.


To be fair though, I have often given in when she initiated and I wasn't in the mood and it was really good and what we needed.

I do ascribe to having sex when your spouse wants for the most part and that doesn't include abuse of course.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sorry but you're not selling me that crap. No one should have to perform sex and make it into a chore just because the other partner wants it when they want it and I don't care whether that other partner is male or female. We each have our own needs and none of us get what we want all the time.
> 
> People who want sex with someone who isn't willing and isn't going to enjoy it right then and they want it anyway and can get off knowing they're making the partner unhappy and uncomfortable right then don't care about anyone except themselves. That is not love and devotion. That is abuse.


Actually, I AGREE with you. And that's why my advice is usually to find another partner, if neither one is willing to work things out and CARE about eachother.

It's just as cruel to force someone to go without sex as it is to force them to have it. 

But why would you describe me as rigid about this issue when you are even more so on the opposite side?

And why are you more uncompromising when it comes to partners and spending money or working than you are with sex? If a partner doesn't want to work, you don't advise that anyone try to understand and not force them to do what they don't want to do...you say LEAVE HIM/HER, they clearly don't care about you and what you need.

Why is sex different??


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sorry but you're not selling me that crap. No one should have to perform sex and make it into a chore just because the other partner wants it when they want it and I don't care whether that other partner is male or female. We each have our own needs and none of us get what we want all the time.
> 
> People who want sex with someone who isn't willing and isn't going to enjoy it right then and they want it anyway and can get off knowing they're making the partner unhappy and uncomfortable right then don't care about anyone except themselves. That is not love and devotion. That is abuse.


At what point do the rejections cross a line? I agree that you shouldn't do something you don't want to do, but if you NEVER want to do them then why would you remain married? This could be said for anything, not just sex.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> This is the essence of true love in my opinion. And THIS is exactly how sex should be between partners - instead of refusing, true loving partners would see having sex even when not "in the mood" as an act of giving to the person they love, as a GIFT and a way to maintain connection, and they would do it with joy and excitement.
> 
> *When you truly love and CARE about your partner, you would never think of denying them something that makes them happy,* just because you "don't feel like it". Exactly like you wouldn't deny them other things that make them happy.
> 
> In MY opinion, anyway.



That's true, and sounds good, but at the end of the day, you are really describing* duty sex...*....I can't fake that....I don't know why, but if that desire goes, then I could never put on an act to make someone happy when it comes to sex...It will cause an issue, and has in the past...

That being said, if people can do it, then it would lead to a lot less aggravation and stress...

Let me ask you this...

Would you be ok knowing that your partner really wasn't sexually into you(anymore) but was doing it to "make you happy".??


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

So as I have said many times I want to have sex every day basically.

This year I did turn my wife down exactly once because she initiated on me when I was physically exhausted and she knew I was exhausted. I suggested a rain check for later in the day. So I said no to having sex right then and there but yes to a few hours later (which never happened, not because of me).

I stopped a lot of nonsense by not initiating into a brick wall.

She told me yesterday in the morning she had a bad “hormone headache” then numerous times through the day she complained about the pain. 15 years ago me would have poked her with a hard on when she got into bed and she would have rightly told me to pound sand. Yesterday me just went to bed and was completely fine with it then asked her how her head was this morning (still hurts but slightly better).

At least in her case paying attention to what she says and trusting and believing that ultimately when she can she will has yielded great results for me, YMMV.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> That's true, and sounds good, but at the end of the day, you are really describing* duty sex...*....I can't fake that....I don't know why, but if that desire goes, then I could never put on an act to make someone happy when it comes to sex...It will cause an issue, and has in the past...
> 
> That being said, if people can do it, then it would lead to a lot less aggravation and stress...
> 
> ...


No I'm not at all talking about "duty sex"...I'm talking about being sexually open and available every possible time, within yourself. I'm talking about consciously removing the barriers_ in your own mind_ to being intimate and enjoying pleasure with the person you love. I am saying to REMOVE the fakeness.

If that doesn't make sense to you, then it isn't right for YOU, and keep doing things your way that works for you!

To answer your question, that was basically my entire sexual experience with my EX. I wish he had just flatly refused and been honest ("I prefer sex in my mind, with porn and my hand, over you and your body"), so I could have left him immediately. But he made that choice so I wouldn't leave, and I felt obligated to stay because at least he was trying to meet my needs. (HINT: He wasn't)

I would not recommend it, it's not REAL...it never lasts and it hurt inside my heart alot of the time.

And it's the complete opposite of the sexual attitude and expression that I am talking about.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well your reaction is very childish. Because it's not about she doesn't have time for sex. It's about she's not in the mood for sex and doesn't feel like having sex and isn't going to feel turned on to you while she's having sex at that moment. Women don't want to have sex with someone when they're not in the mood and also aren't in the mood if they are not super happy with their partner right at the moment as well as a lot of other reasons such as simply being tired or not having a great day or just their hormone cycling. Women aren't horny all the time. Get used to it.


Are you my wife?  She says all the same things!

I agree with some of what you say but when a guy hears No more than 50% of the time he initiates, this is the result.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess I just DO NOT understand playing games like this. If I had a partner who made me feel this bad all the time, and unloved enough that I wanted to get away from them and didn't want to connect with them, then any amount of money would be worth leaving them.


Well thats my predicament as that amount of money for me is high and I am running out of time in life to recover it. If this was 15 years ago, I would be gone already


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well thats my predicament as that amount of money for me is high and I am running out of time in life to recover it. If this was 15 years ago, I would be gone already


I've said before...I'd rather be living in a tent laughing and having enthusiastic sex with someone special than in a mansion, dripping in jewels and "stuff", and be sexually starving and lonely.

So I can't understand your choice...but I really do hope it works out for you and makes you at least partially happy.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But by the flip side, how many guys have ever said No when their wives initiated sex even if they weren't in the mood?
> Maybe 3 in the history of mankind?


And my EX was one of them.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I've said before...I'd rather be living in a tent laughing and having enthusiastic sex with someone special than in a mansion, dripping in jewels and "stuff", and be sexually starving and lonely.
> 
> So I can't understand your choice...but I really do hope it works out for you and makes you at least partially happy.


Yeah I don't expect many (or anyone) to understand. Its just I have worked hard for what I have and now just to hand over half just because the wife doesn't want sex feels like I am rewarding her but mostly as then I punish myself.

I would then not be able to stop working early while on this track I can stop working before I am 55. Who knows what she will want to do but I can at least travel and do things I want even if she doesn't want to join. But if I have to pay out for the big D, that would never happen as I would be working until I am 70+ and half of what I have saved would be gone.

If I was younger and had less saved, I would 100% agree with you. But thats not the deal life has dealt me. Who knows I could end up with Low T in a few years and never care much for sex and be happier???


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> And my EX was one of them.


Wow, honestly I have NEVER said No to sex. With the ex or current wife. NEVER... Not once.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Wow, honestly I have NEVER said No to sex. With the ex or current wife. NEVER... Not once.


Neither have I. NEVER, not once.

Even when my first husband would get home from work at midnight and wake me up, and I had to get up early with very little children. I WANTED to stay asleep, but he needed that sexual connection with me, and I needed it - the MARRIAGE needed it!!

And I was honored and excited that he brought his desire TO ME. I never took that for granted!

So instead of pushing his hands away and staying asleep, I giggled and reached back for him, and enjoyed the pleasure of him touching me and me touching him...and 30 minutes later I was fast asleep again.

So I don't understand how that was him asking for too much and me giving him duty sex.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yeah I don't expect many (or anyone) to understand. Its just I have worked hard for what I have and now just to hand over half just because the wife doesn't want sex feels like I am rewarding her but mostly as then I punish myself.
> 
> I would then not be able to stop working early while on this track I can stop working before I am 55. Who knows what she will want to do but I can at least travel and do things I want even if she doesn't want to join. But if I have to pay out for the big D, that would never happen as I would be working until I am 70+ and half of what I have saved would be gone.
> 
> If I was younger and had less saved, I would 100% agree with you. * But thats not the deal life has dealt me.* Who knows I could end up with Low T in a few years and never care much for sex and be happier???


You could always chemically castrate yourself, like some of the guys who are younger and too scared to leave their sexless marriages want to do. 

Do you think THAT is much better than having a smaller house and less stuff, and finding a sexually loving partner...??

I mean, if that's how you feel, then why do you complain about it? You are getting exactly what you want - more of your money and an early retirement...with someone you don't really enjoy spending time with. Why do you complain about not being happy when you are getting EXACTLY what you choose?

See the bolded...it's not "life"...it's YOU.

If you stay, at least accept it and embrace it, and be happy with your choice.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> I often thing on the issue of low sex marriages or women who aren't in the mood.
> 
> I wonder if part of this is now women often work, take care of kids, take care of the house, and many other things including things like the finances and financial planning.


From an anthropological point of view: Humans, today just like at any time since humans exist, have had to deal with the business of surviving long enough in order to procreate and be able to bring the progeny to adulthood before their time is up and leave that progeny ready to face the world on their own. Having said that, as you go back further in time, life was as a matter of fact, much, much harsher that it is today for most humans, the business of procreation was not taken lightly since one the main outcome of a pregnancy was death for the woman and child during or before partum (not that that has ever stopped humans).

The available data that exist (factual and inferring) before man discovery of agriculture and settled life and not longer having to be nomads in order to survive, indicates that as harsh as life was for women it was more or less as much her decision as to whom to partner with as much as to the powers to be within the clan. which most likely lead to just division of labor, but same sense of responsibility toward the creation and maintaining of a family, with what time they had due to survival first, procreation drive immediately next. So sex for a couple in those time was, if nothing else surreptitiously done, and I doubt that men and women had much time to complain about women not being "in the mood".

The advent of agriculture and possession of land and wealth change all that. Eventually women (being the ones that bear the children) became a commodity to be used as means of assuring that land, wealth, and position within the societal stratas were keyed to advantage of all parties involved. Marriage, unions, partnerships, for most humans since the inception of the human race has not been a matter of love, but a matter of business. It's recently in time for humans that the concept of "marriage for love" came to forefront (not that the concept hasn't exist, because it has) with advent of the evolution of social wellness, health, more economical stability, living longer due to advancements in science, sanitary conditions, and so forth.

This had led to the business of marriages, unions, being more an affair of the heart than and affair of business (not that it hasn't stopped either), but if we are going to judge by what's been an ancient lore of man's lament: the woman not being "in the mood" sufficiently enough, then it's been happening all along, it's not just a matter of the female being in the mood enough times to man's content, because of our differences in hormonal compositions, the risky business of childbirth for women,the hash conditions of life until very recently for both women and men, and now with the complexity of modern life in urban societies, despite the advances in science, health care, risks of childbear, better living conditions, more people having a better economical life, more men being integral part of the day to day taking care of childcare, women working alongside men out of the house we have come full circle: men still complaining that women are not in the mood sufficiently enough times to be satisfied.

My take is that since still there exist a social imbalance in a lot of relationships (still hardships for both women and men), plus men not accepting the reality that past certain age females in average will have less and less libido than men for sex regardless of circumstances. Men all they can think of is that is not fair to them, and get upset about it. But that's one of the price we have to pay now that we marry for love (able to choose), have the money and power, but not able to live like in some cultures where the men that have the economical power to have more than one wife or concubines, don't have to worry about "not in the mood today dear"


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> You could always chemically castrate yourself, like some of the guys who are younger and too scared to leave their sexless marriages want to do.
> 
> Do you think THAT is much better than having a smaller house and less stuff, and finding a sexually loving partner...??
> 
> ...


Well but I don't have to be happy with a low sex wife. Just because I have "accepted" it doesn't mean I am happy about it. I think many guys are in my situation.

I don't care for my job either but it pays a ton of money and not all that difficult. Me and my colleagues complain everyday about it and yes, working at some beach bar would be A LOT better and fun and exciting but of course would not provide the other important aspects...

So sometimes happiness comes at a price and we have to evaluate each aspect to see if its worth it. In contrast I see a number of single guys here who aren't really claiming the great life so who knows whats really worth it? I have several single friends my age who don't have a sexually loving partner either so its no guarantee. But getting divorced IS a guarantee I would have to keep working and have far less saved cash. Thats a given!

It sucks but its the cards life has dealt me for now so to make a radical change like divorce as I said would force me to work another 15 or 20 years and I just don't want to do that.

And one quick edit to add.... If just leaving with the hopes of finding someone new and better would be so easy, than why is anyone on here single? Shouldn't everyone just be able to go and find someone new? I don't believe its that easy.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> So as I have said many times I want to have sex every day basically.
> 
> This year I did turn my wife down exactly once because she initiated on me when I was physically exhausted and she knew I was exhausted. I suggested a rain check for later in the day. So I said no to having sex right then and there but yes to a few hours later (which never happened, not because of me).
> 
> ...


I think this is a good point for people who get rejected a lot especially. Being rejected by your spouse can get very frustrating and demoralizing. Being mindful of not trying to initiate when you know your partner is likely not going to be receptive is good for you so you don't suffer the rejection. It also won't have the effect of annoying your partner because they are probably thinking, you know I'm not feeling well, you know I'm super stressed, why put me in the position of being the bad guy and making me feel worse. Initiating when you should know your partner isn't going to be receptive for a specific legitimate reason really only makes things worse. 

Also guilting a women into having sex is not likely to be a good sexual experience for them which will lead to less desire for sex.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well but I don't have to be happy with a low sex wife. Just because I have "accepted" it doesn't mean I am happy about it. I think many guys are in my situation.
> 
> I don't care for my job either but it pays a ton of money and not all that difficult. Me and my colleagues complain everyday about it and yes, working at some beach bar would be A LOT better and fun and exciting but of course would not provide the other important aspects...
> 
> ...


People are single because they WANT to be, that's all. They have chosen it, and very few who are complain about it. They are happy with their choice.

But good for you, you make very good points that sound like they work for you. You do more than just good-naturedly complain, though...you feel victimized by "life"...and THAT is what I can't understand. You aren't a victim. You are making a choice and getting the results that you KNOW come with that choice.

I don't really feel bad for you at all. I feel happy for you that you have your money, even if I don't understand valuing that.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Actually, I AGREE with you. And that's why my advice is usually to find another partner, if neither one is willing to work things out and CARE about eachother.
> 
> It's just as cruel to force someone to go without sex as it is to force them to have it.
> 
> ...


Sex won't keep a roof over your head.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sex won't keep a roof over your head.


It has from time immemorial. throughout time pretty much for a big percentage of the female population to today, sex has kept a woman a roof over her head, all over the world.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> At what point do the rejections cross a line? I agree that you shouldn't do something you don't want to do, but if you NEVER want to do them then why would you remain married? This could be said for anything, not just sex.


That all depends on everyone's priorities. I don't look upon men as babies who must be nursed when they cry.

I look upon men and women as people who should be putting their families first in the overall picture and not just prioritize their sexual needs.

Why? Because a baby can't nurse itself, but anyone can masturbate and take care of their own most basic sexual needs if need be for some amount of time, as every uncoupled person of every age knows.

It is just very unrealistic to think that someone should just be on call for you sexually no matter how much you love each other. If you love a person you don't just love sex about them. That's not love and I hate when people try to push it as love.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rob_1 said:


> It has from time immemorial. throughout time pretty much for a big percentage of the female population to today, sex has kept a woman a roof over her head, all over the world.


Whether she wanted to be drug into the cave or not.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Are you my wife?  She says all the same things!
> 
> I agree with some of what you say but when a guy hears No more than 50% of the time he initiates, this is the result.


I think you should always take into consideration the circumstances and what all she has going on. I also think you should take into consideration if you two like each other at the moment or not because a lot of women are not going to have sex with a man they are presently not liking because of whatever reason. 

If it gets to the point where you just don't even like each other, maybe time to move on.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Damn. Mornings are among my favorite times.


Mine too, but I am a total starfish in the mornings because I am not a morning person except for that. So I really wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to participate under the circumstances.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Do y'all raise your children by giving them anything they want the moment they want it? Do you think that's good for them, to teach them that they're entitled to whatever they want whenever they want it?

Then why would you think it's okay for anyone to be that way about sex?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sex won't keep a roof over your head.


All I was pointing out was that when it is a "need" that you believe is important to a relationship, you react just as strongly as I do when it's about sex. The only difference is that we don't share the same view of what is important (which is ok).

That doesn't bother me at all, I don't expect people to agree with me...I agree with many of your other opinions and enjoy your posts. I even like reading the ones about sex that I don't agree with, because I want to hear other opinions so I can continuously check my own.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> All I was pointing out was that when it is a "need" that you believe is important to a relationship, you react just as strongly as I do when it's about sex. The only difference is that we don't share the same view of what is important (which is ok).
> 
> That doesn't bother me at all, I don't expect people to agree with me...I agree with many of your other opinions and enjoy your posts. I even like reading the ones about sex that I don't agree with, because I want to hear other opinions so I can continuously check my own.


I like your posts too and I'm sure you have your reasons.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That all depends on everyone's priorities. I don't look upon men as babies who must be nursed when they cry.
> 
> I look upon men and women as people who should be putting their families first in the overall picture and not just prioritize their sexual needs.
> 
> ...


I've never personally experienced sex being turned off completely, other than at obvious times like post birth or something along those lines and that was quite mutual. Even though I've always been the one to typically initiate and I have been told no at times, my wife has always seemed interested in keeping our sex life alive. Maybe not always totally enthusiastic, but always willing to give me a chance to turn her on. I am more than happy with that and I don't think it is unreasonable for every married person to have that expectation. Marriage is a sexual relationship after all.

Masturbation will give some relief in the moment, but that isn't going to do it for me long term. I'm not engaging in sex with her for the sole purpose of ejaculating. There genuinely is much more to it. I love to bond with her in other ways too, but sex is a big part of the whole picture. It is the ultimate in her giving herself to me and me to her. As long as we are physically capable, I would feel like something is missing from the relationship without sex. Luckily my wife agrees. Quite honestly I think it comes down to whether or not you find your spouse sexy. If you do you simply won't be saying no on a regular basis.

It would be wrong for me to think my wife is available for free use anytime I want, but I don't think that is what anyone ever talks about here. I can understand saying no from time to time. Life does get in the way. But when no happens more than yes there is a major issue. One of the two people is not giving any consideration to the importance of sex for the other person. In my mind it is no different than my wife asking me to cook dinner and I say no every time. Why should I, she can take care of it herself? Why should I wash her clothes, she can do it herself. That is as much BS as always saying no to sex, you can take care of that yourself. That isn't how a partnership works.

What do you think about no sex when the kids are all grown up and gone or there are no kids yet and it is just a married couple? That would take a lot of the excuses off the table, wouldn't it? It was a pretty simple life prior to kids, lol.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I've never personally experienced sex being turned off completely, other than at obvious times like post birth or something along those lines and that was quite mutual. Even though I've always been the one to typically initiate and I have been told no at times, my wife has always seemed interested in keeping our sex life alive. Maybe not always totally enthusiastic, but always willing to give me a chance to turn her on. I am more than happy with that and I don't think it is unreasonable for every married person to have that expectation. Marriage is a sexual relationship after all.
> 
> Masturbation will give some relief in the moment, but that isn't going to do it for me long term. I'm not engaging in sex with her for the sole purpose of ejaculating. There genuinely is much more to it. I love to bond with her in other ways too, but sex is a big part of the whole picture. It is the ultimate in her giving herself to me and me to her. As long as we are physically capable, I would feel like something is missing from the relationship without sex. Luckily my wife agrees. Quite honestly I think it comes down to whether or not you find your spouse sexy. If you do you simply won't be saying no on a regular basis.
> 
> ...


There's really no excuses needed for most women not wanting sex as often as most men because that is just their biology.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I've said before...I'd rather be living in a tent laughing and having enthusiastic sex with someone special than in a mansion, dripping in jewels and "stuff", and be sexually starving and lonely.
> 
> So I can't understand your choice...but I really do hope it works out for you and makes you at least partially happy.


The thing is, nothing insures that FloridaGuy1 won't just find a carbon copy of the wife he is now married to ( or his first wife) So, he could end up in a tent with someone as bad as the ‘wife’ he now has.

I always wonder if we don't unintentionally make the same bad choices over and over. We have relatives who have been married multiple times, and every one of their spouses treats them as badly as all of the ones before. I would think at some point they would choose to remain single, but they don't.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Marriage is a sexual relationship after all.


Yes


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Whether she wanted to be drug into the cave or not.


Not necessarily, but is been known to happen.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sex won't keep a roof over your head.


I've had sex on a roof. 

🙄 whoops sorry for the TJ 🤣🤣🤣


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There's really no excuses needed for most women not wanting sex as often as most men because that is just their biology.


That seems like a very callous view. No need to care about your husband's biological needs. You are in essence saying it is a need imposed upon him by his biology and his life partner should have no concern about helping him with it. Basically, **** him, his got a hand doesn't he. Since he is in a monogamous relationship and his wife doesn't care about his biological needs isn't he being abused?


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

Seems like there should be some compromise. If one partner wants once a week and the other wants it daily, 3-4 times a week seems reasonable.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> The thing is, nothing insures that FloridaGuy1 won't just find a carbon copy of the wife he is now married to (or his first wife) So, he could end up in a tent with someone as bad as the wide he now has.
> 
> I always wonder if we don't unintentionally make the same bad choices over and over. We have relatives who have been married multiple times, and every one of their spouses treats them as badly as all of the ones before. I would think at some point they would choose to remain single, but they don't.


If we aren't willing to stand up and advocate for our own needs to be met in our most important relationship, why would we think our partner will be willing to do so for us? If we don't care about ourselves, we don't draw people to us who will either.

I would rather live my life searching and HOPING for something that is possible, than wasting time hoping for something that doesn't exist.

And I'd also rather feel lonely because I'm alone, than to be lonely because of my relationship.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> The thing is, nothing insures that FloridaGuy1 won't just find a carbon copy of the wife he is now married to (or his first wife) So, he could end up in a tent with someone as bad as the wide he now has.
> 
> I always wonder if we don't unintentionally make the same bad choices over and over. We have relatives who have been married multiple times, and every one of their spouses treats them as badly as all of the ones before. I would think at some point they would choose to remain single, but they don't.


True. But staying definitely insures that he will never get what he wants, except for his money.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Angie?or… said:


> Seems like there should be some compromise. If one partner wants once a week and the other wants it daily, 3-4 times a week seems reasonable.


Compromise! what a crazy concept, lol.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There's really no excuses needed for most women not wanting sex as often as most men because that is just their biology.


I'm so not certain about this statement at all.

I know a lot of women past their breeding years that really want sex.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That seems like a very callous view. No need to care about your husband's biological needs. You are in essence saying it is a need imposed upon him by his biology and his life partner should have no concern about helping him with it. Basically, **** him, his got a hand doesn't he. Since he is in a monogamous relationship and his wife doesn't care about his biological needs isn't he being abused?


Plus, I know a slew of women who are dtf and way past getting pregnant.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Plus, I know a slew of women who are dtf and way past getting pregnant.


You sure they aren't just guys in disguise? lol


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Plus, I know a slew of women who are dtf and way past getting pregnant.


And all I have to say is.....WOOHOO!!!!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That seems like a very callous view. No need to care about your husband's biological needs. You are in essence saying it is a need imposed upon him by his biology and his life partner should have no concern about helping him with it. Basically, **** him, his got a hand doesn't he. Since he is in a monogamous relationship and his wife doesn't care about his biological needs isn't he being abused?


No.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I'm so not certain about this statement at all.
> 
> I know a lot of women past their breeding years that really want sex.


There are exceptions to everything. And yes there are highs and lows with everyone. But it's men who are so desperate to get sex all the time not women with rare exceptions. I mean nothing could be more obvious than that on this forum. It is what it is.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No.


So I assume if the roles were reversed and the wife was high drive, husband low drive it would be okay for him to only allow sex maybe once a month and on special occassions?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No. Why should she put his needs above her own? I bet she didn't know that was going to be expected or she wouldn't have married him.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So I assume if the roles were reversed and the wife was high drive, husband low drive it would be okay for him to only allow sex maybe once a month and on special occassions?


Yes. I actually have two very high drive friends. One made the mistake of marrying a real nut who wasn't just a nut sexually but in general, so her sexual needs rarely were ever met because he didn't even like sex as we know it and was very hands off even during what he would have called sex, plus into feet which did her no good. The lucky thing is they both started losing their sex drive at the same time and things became far more placid after that and relaxed.

However divorce is in the works but not to do with that. I would say there are very few married households where everyone is getting exactly what they want when they want it. And you know what? That's adulting.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yes.


I'm glad you are consistent. Then can I assume you don't consider sex to be an integral part of marriage?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sorry but you're not selling me that crap. No one should have to perform sex and make it into a chore just because the other partner wants it when they want it and I don't care whether that other partner is male or female. We each have our own needs and none of us get what we want all the time.
> 
> People who want sex with someone who isn't willing and isn't going to enjoy it right then and they want it anyway and can get off knowing they're making the partner unhappy and uncomfortable right then don't care about anyone except themselves. That is not love and devotion. That is abuse.


Again, @LisaDiane is not talking about the one-off Tuesday night where someone isn’t up to it for whatever reason, but people who actively REJECT their partner on a consistent and ongoing basis. 

If you don’t want to even try to have a loving relationship, then why would you want to be with them at all and why should you care if they leave you to find someone that does want to be in a loving relationship with them? 

Those that deny and reject their partner’s wants and needs are perfectly capable of letting them go so they can find live elsewhere.

To deny and reject them but them expect them to remain with you is just being mean and selfish and abusive.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm glad you are consistent. Then can I assume you don't consider sex to be an integral part of marriage?


I don't consider expecting the average drive partner to meet the high drive expectations of their partner to be a part of marriage. Women are very rarely going to want sex as often as most men are over time. There are rare exceptions. I don't see why the lower drive should be expected to just acquiesce to make the higher drive 100% when there is more than one way to get off. I think that is very spoiled entitled thinking. Again would you teach your children to expect to get everything they wanted when they want it?

That is spoiled kid stuff.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Compromise! what a crazy concept, lol.


If I want to get close, say 5 or more times a week, I'm still happy with 7 or more times. I don't mind compromising. 😉


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't consider expecting the average drive partner to meet the high drive expectations of their partner to be a part of marriage. Women are very rarely going to want sex as often as most men are over time. There are rare exceptions. I don't see why the lower drive should be expected to just acquiesce to make the higher drive 100% when there is more than one way to get off. I think that is very spoiled entitled thinking. Again would you teach your children to expect to get everything they wanted when they want it?
> 
> That is spoiled kid stuff.


And what you just described is the situation some of us face. I would like sex 1-2x per week. My wife is OK with 1-2x per month.

Therein lies the problem.

But regardless of MY specific situation, when the difference is that great and the LD person has the attitude you describe (spoiled. go jack off, etc), the HD person gets resentful, etc and that creates a divide in the marriage. And then we see those very LD people complaining that their HD spouse is watching porn. Well, of course they are!

No way around it, thats just biology.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And what you just described is the situation some of us face. I would like sex 1-2x per week. My wife is OK with 1-2x per month.
> 
> Therein lies the problem.
> 
> ...


Either way someone may be resentful. I am always cautioning people on here about making sex too much of a chore for their partner, and I'm mainly talking about women who start feeling that sex is a chore because of the demands, but it could happen to men as well.

In the long run, if their partner keeps expecting them to do things that they don't enjoy doing, the result may eventually be that that partner just starts avoiding sex altogether because they're trying to avoid doing the things they don't like. That is obviously a problem that could lead to divorce. I believe that problem has gotten a lot more common in the last 10 or 15 years because of porn. But it existed even before that from men expecting BJ's on a regular basis and those are just not anything that most woman enjoy. There are exceptions to everything and there are a lot of women that go along with it especially when they're young and trying to impress. 

Now it's gone way past that to anal sex and we had a woman on here just a few days ago as a new member whose husband she had been with since she was 16 it was trying to safely get out of the marriage because he was basically raping her anally and making her bleed.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I haven't read many of the comments because it can be a bit triggering.

In my marriage I was the breadwinner. And the cook. And the dishwasher. And the launderer. She could work wherever and however much she wanted to (or not). The last couple years we were clinically sexless (less than 10 times a year). There was one day a month in her cycle where she was in the mood and at least twice a year something came up to put her out of the mood.

"You must have sucked in the sack."

She had an orgasm the first time she took her pants off and I know because I felt it. She literally had an orgasm almost every time she took off her pants and was interested in having one. It never did and never would cross her mind to fake it. I could generally tell anyway.

There are a ton of women that impose unrealistic standards on themselves and end up miserable as a result. Having a high powered career, a happy family and marriage, and a Good Housekeeping home generally aren't possible in one lifetime. There isn't time for it. There was a time in the 70s or 80s where all of these things became possible and many women took it on themselves to do all of the things and maintain the home standards like they didn't have careers. The misery got the family as company as a rule.

I remembered reading somewhere in this thread that someone was somewhat surprised that most men consider physical affection important. That's a weird thing to not know since it is a strong component of every stereotype about men that I've ever seen. Its been common knowledge for everyone that reads since at least as early as the invention of the printing press (and probably quite a bit longer).

Either sex is important in which case both people should put effort into maintaining the quality and quantity or it's not important and the person not having their needs met in the relationship can get them met outside of the relationship. I guess it could be possible that someone that had higher desire could decide that the partner they were with on balance was good enough without that aspect of their relationship. It's kind of a big deal for me. About the same importance as an addiction or personality disorder in terms of what they would have to bring to the relationship to balance out that shortcoming. (IE I probably wouldn't even bother starting the relationship if I knew about it prior to getting involved)


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Hiner112 said:


> I haven't read many of the comments because it can be a bit triggering.
> 
> In my marriage I was the breadwinner. And the cook. And the dishwasher. And the launderer. She could work wherever and however much she wanted to (or not). The last couple years we were clinically sexless (less than 10 times a year). There was one day a month in her cycle where she was in the mood and at least twice a year something came up to put her out of the mood.
> 
> ...


I haven't experienced it but I would think being in a relationship were I was having little to no sex would be a special kind of hell. I would absolutely leave no matter how many years in we were. I would not want to waste anymore years.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Hiner112 said:


> (IE I probably wouldn't even bother starting the relationship if I knew about it prior to getting involved)


I don't think any of us would. Its the "hot and sexy" at first that turns into "not and cold" after a few years that seems to hit some of us.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> I haven't experienced it but I would think being in a relationship were I was having little to no sex would be a special kind of hell. I would absolutely leave no matter how many years in we were. I would not want to waste anymore years.


Trust me, its a hard call to make. I think about it everyday.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Trust me, its a hard call to make. I think about it everyday.


I feel for you, it has to be hard any way you look at it.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> I haven't experienced it but I would think being in a relationship were I was having little to no sex would be a special kind of hell. I would absolutely leave no matter how many years in we were. I would not want to waste anymore years.


It might be an interesting question as far as where you might draw the line. 

Is 100 times a year (2 / week) OK? How about 75 (one week a month off)? 50 (once a week)? At what point does it become "not enough"?

How long would you endure the mismatch between what you want and what you get?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Hiner112 said:


> It might be an interesting question as far as where you might draw the line.
> 
> Is 100 times a year (2 / week) OK? How about 75 (one week a month off)? 50 (once a week)? At what point does it become "not enough"?
> 
> How long would you endure the mismatch between what you want and what you get?


I have my own opinion about what should be consider a good healthy sex life but that isn't what would be important. What would be important is have you talk to your partner about it? Have you voiced your concerns? Has your partner understood your concerns? Have you and partner found a middle ground? Has you partner made an effort to stay at that middle ground? 
All these would play a part in my decision as to when I would leave. My partner would know the reason why I was leaving, no blindsiding someone.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> And what you just described is the situation some of us face. I would like sex 1-2x per week. My wife is OK with 1-2x per month.
> 
> Therein lies the problem.
> 
> ...


You know there is such a thing as masturbating without watching porn. It would probably be less destructive since men watching porn seems to raise their expectations and only make matters worse. It's just something to think about. People masturbated well before porn videos came along.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You know there is such a thing as masturbating without watching porn. It would probably be less destructive since men watching porn seems to raise their expectations and only make matters worse. It's just something to think about. People masturbated well before porn videos came along.


Here we go.

I posted this in another thread a while back.

Why would anyone get to say HOW I masturbate? If I am masturbating NO ONE gets to dictate how I do it. Period.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Here we go.
> 
> I posted this in another thread a while back.
> 
> Why would anyone get to say HOW I masturbate? If I am masturbating NO ONE gets to dictate how I do it. Period.


As long as you aren't in the produce section at my grocery store, you're good


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You know there is such a thing as masturbating without watching porn. It would probably be less destructive since men watching porn seems to raise their expectations and only make matters worse. It's just something to think about. People masturbated well before porn videos came along.


We also lived in caves, ate raw meat and walked everywhere. Why should we thwart progress by going backwards in any of these especially masturbation?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Here we go.
> 
> I posted this in another thread a while back.
> 
> Why would anyone get to say HOW I masturbate? If I am masturbating NO ONE gets to dictate how I do it. Period.


I realize that, but if you're in a situation where you're trying to improve your marriage and preserve it, sometimes that can just be destructive. You see it time and time again on here. You can make matters worse. But of course it's all up to you whether you are trying to build up your marriage and preserve it or if that is just secondary.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> We also lived in caves, ate raw meat and walked everywhere. Why should we thwart progress by going backwards in any of these especially masturbation?


I think there's pretty good evidence to show we're going backward now the toll it's taking.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I realize that, but if you're in a situation where you're trying to improve your marriage and preserve it, sometimes that can just be destructive. You see it time and time again on here. You can make matters worse. But of course it's all up to you whether you are trying to build up your marriage and preserve it or if that is just secondary.


Should it be all on HIM to build up and preserve his marriage when his sexual needs aren't being met? Why should he give up porn TOO, as well as sex with his monogamous partner?

While she continues on not feeling any expectations or frustration with money or working or sex...why is HE the only one who has responsibilities to meet HER needs in their marriage?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Should it be all on HIM to build up and preserve his marriage when his sexual needs aren't being met? Why should he give up porn TOO, as well as sex with his monogamous partner?
> 
> While she continues on not feeling any expectations or frustration with money or working or sex...why is HE the only one who has responsibilities to meet HER needs in their marriage?


You mean that's not the way it is suppose to be!?!?! 🤯


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Should it be all on HIM to build up and preserve his marriage when his sexual needs aren't being met? Why should he give up porn TOO, as well as sex with his monogamous partner?
> 
> While she continues on not feeling any expectations or frustration with money or working or sex...why is HE the only one who has responsibilities to meet HER needs in their marriage?


We've been all around this subject. And your last paragraph makes no sense to me since I never said anything like that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> We've been all around this subject. And your last paragraph makes no sense to me since I never said anything like that.


Well, I still don't remember you ever answering it directly.

My last paragraph was not really about what you said, but what was implied by your comments. Because his wife lives quite luxuriously like a spoiled princess (which is the issue HE created, in my opinion), and gets pretty much everything in their marriage exactly how she wants it.

I am still interested in what your answer is, not to attack you, just to know.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, I still don't remember you ever answering it directly.
> 
> My last paragraph was not really about what you said, but what was implied by your comments. Because his wife lives quite luxuriously like a spoiled princess (which is the issue HE created, in my opinion), and gets pretty much everything in their marriage exactly how she wants it.
> 
> I am still interested in what your answer is, not to attack you, just to know.


I would have to know everything about their marriage to answer your question and on this thread all I know is he's not happy with the frequency of sex. And then I looked back on his discussions he started and that seems to be all he's talking about so that's really all I know about him except for one post he made under one of those discussions where he said they overall have a happy marriage except He's just not that happy with the sex frequency which I liked, so he'll know which one I'm talking about. Overall what he's expressed in his threads is that he has a good marriage.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I realize that, but if you're in a situation where you're trying to improve your marriage and preserve it, sometimes that can just be destructive. You see it time and time again on here. You can make matters worse. But of course it's all up to you whether you are trying to build up your marriage and preserve it or if that is just secondary.


So would you say it would be acceptable if someone like me approached my wife for sex and she refused, and to avoid using porn, it would be appropriate to ask her to manually get me off so I wouldn't have to do it myself?

Is that better than me watching porn and doing it myself?

Would that be a viable option to present to her? 

I ask as I would be agreeable to that option....unfortunately thats not how it works in my house. So then I am left either watching porn or 100% relying on my imagination. 

I detail all this as then it essentially means the LD partner controls both the sex AND the masturbation practices of the HD partner.

That seems far from "adulting" and more like "control"


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I would have to know everything about their marriage to answer your question and on this thread all I know is he's not happy with the frequency of sex. And then I looked back on his discussions he started and that seems to be all he's talking about so that's really all I know about him except for one post he made under one of those discussions where he said they overall have a happy marriage except He's just not that happy with the sex frequency which I liked, so he'll know which one I'm talking about. Overall what he's expressed in his threads is that he has a good marriage.


I wouldn't say its a "bad" marriage but the wife isn't interested in sex and doesn't work so I feel a bit miffed at her a lot of the time.

There is no abuse, no violence, or things like that but I definitely feel like "roommates" many days with me sporting all of the costs with not much benefit.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> So would you say it would be acceptable if someone like me approached my wife for sex and she refused, and to avoid using porn, it would be appropriate to ask her to manually get me off so I wouldn't have to do it myself?
> 
> Is that better than me watching porn and doing it myself?
> 
> ...


Well, you can ask her that. To me, that's a chore you can do yourself. Doesn't sound like she's malicious to me. Why be hostile about the fact that she just isn't as sexually charged on a day to day basis as you are? She's female. The control is that you won't be happy until you've somehow gotten her to care more about your sexual needs than her own needs, and that's like pouting because you're not the ultimate boss of her or something because she isn't willing to subjugate herself to you. I think it's more about ego. My advice is respect she has her own parameters that aren't malicious and don't try to turn her into a prostitute who services you and destroy your relationship with that type of basic disrespect.

You know, I don't even think the term "low drive partner" applies accurately because that presumes there is something inadequate about someone who likely has a perfectly normal average sex drive. I get it's the shortcut to describing this stuff, but I think it paints an unfair picture and tries to make the women look like inadequate selfish freaks for simply being women.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I wouldn't say its a "bad" marriage but the wife isn't interested in sex and doesn't work so I feel a bit miffed at her a lot of the time.
> 
> There is no abuse, no violence, or things like that but I definitely feel like "roommates" many days with me sporting all of the costs with not much benefit.


Well, I don't even know if your wife works or is a SAHM or what, but I do know she's not an aspiring prostitute, unless you knowingly married a golddigger.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I haven't experienced it but I would think being in a relationship were I was having little to no sex would be a special kind of hell. I would absolutely leave *no matter how many years in we were.* I would not want to *waste anymore years.
> *



You say that now. 

But if you were in your sixties, seventies, or eighties, married for decades, kids n grandkids and comfortable life, T levels in the basement, wife has no libido, you might decide "what the h3ll", become celibate, spend the remainder of your days enjoying hobbies n watching TV. Probably not "wasting" that many years.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> You say that now.
> 
> But if you were in your sixties, seventies, or eighties, married for decades, kids n grandkids and comfortable life, T levels in the basement, wife has no libido, you might decide "what the h3ll", become celibate, spend the remainder of your days enjoying hobbies n watching TV. Probably not "wasting" that many years.


That is true. Let me restate what I said, I've I was still in "prime time" I would leave


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Hiner112 said:


> It might be an interesting question as far as where you might draw the line.
> 
> Is 100 times a year (2 / week) OK? How about 75 (one week a month off)? 50 (once a week)? At what point does it become "not enough"?
> 
> How long would you endure the mismatch between what you want and what you get?


Or what is the difference between "some" and "none". Intimacy once a month with an uninterested partner would be enough of a PITA to just forget the whole thing? In my case, once a week would be getting real close to being the same as none especially if the wife didn't care.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Or what is the difference between "some" and "none". Intimacy once a month with an uninterested partner would be enough of a PITA to just forget the whole thing? In my case, once a week would be getting real close to being the same as none especially if the wife didn't care.


There are so many variables besides just how much you have sex. Some people on here complain that they want more sex because they want more affection. But you can give affection other ways in addition to having sex and you should do on a regular basis. There's no rule you can follow because there's too many variables on each side of a relationship plus kids. 

Ideally you care something about your partner besides just having sex with their body.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> And while maybe women are lower desire overall. I think mostly we see across the board many men don't understand what makes us horny. We keep seeing men come on with platitudes like work out. Newsflash we are all different the answer isn't the same for each woman and it isn't even the same for each woman through out her whole life.


And sometimes it's something the man can't help. If, for instance, she's decided that she has to have a nice house, nice car, etc. lifestyle to really feel good and be able to let loose - well money just doesn't grow on trees. You can't force someone to pay you a certain amount.

Just an example.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> Do you really think hotness matters that much ?


This is exactly right. I'm decent but nowhere near hot. The offers do come in after ladies see what kind of person I am... values, work ethic, and so on.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

This takes me back to the Ted Talk by Esther Perel. Spontaneity is a myth. Attraction waxes and wanes. The couples that make it manage to be intentional and come together regularly despite the challenges of life, waning libido, body image issues, etc.

Unless separated by physical distance, there's always time to have sex - it's a matter of how you prioritize and what you're willing to give up. Get to work on figuring it out, or not. But if you're not willing to sacrifice, push through, and be intentional, why bother being married at all?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't consider expecting the average drive partner to meet the high drive expectations of their partner to be a part of marriage. Women are very rarely going to want sex as often as most men are over time. There are rare exceptions. I don't see why the lower drive should be expected to just acquiesce to make the higher drive 100% when there is more than one way to get off. I think that is very spoiled entitled thinking. Again would you teach your children to expect to get everything they wanted when they want it?
> 
> That is spoiled kid stuff.


It seems like you are coming at this assuming all guys want sex all the time no questions asked. That is an extreme and that isn't what is typically discussed here. I get the sense that most guys are talking about only getting sex 1 or 2 times per month, maybe less and they are hoping for 1-2 times per week. I'm going under the assumption that at some point this is where they were. The desire was there and/or the willingness to try to get turned on was there. Now its not. That sounds like growing apart and the beginning of the end for the marriage. 

That doesn't sound like a spoiled husband to me. Don't you think the wife would have some interest in trying to find a compromise position to save her marriage and try to help both people be happy? To me it sounds like she is the spoiled brat that wants what she wants, but won't give in return.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

By the time a couple gets that disconnected the marriage is already toast. Circling the drain. Am so thankful arguing about intimacy has NEVER been part of our lives. Whoever initiates, the other (if not ill) responds. Neither of us is “spoiled”. There was a book whose title sums it up “The Joy of Sex”.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It seems like you are coming at this assuming all guys want sex all the time no questions asked. That is an extreme and that isn't what is typically discussed here. I get the sense that most guys are talking about only getting sex 1 or 2 times per month, maybe less and they are hoping for 1-2 times per week. I'm going under the assumption that at some point this is where they were. The desire was there and/or the willingness to try to get turned on was there. Now its not. That sounds like growing apart and the beginning of the end for the marriage.
> 
> That doesn't sound like a spoiled husband to me. Don't you think the wife would have some interest in trying to find a compromise position to save her marriage and try to help both people be happy? To me it sounds like she is the spoiled brat that wants what she wants, but won't give in return.


It sounds like you think a woman can just tell herself to be horny and she'll just be horny. And it sounds like you've joined the ranks who believe she should do it whether she feels like it or not because his needs are more important than hers. 


So we just disagree.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> And while maybe women are lower desire overall. I think mostly we see across the board many men don't understand what makes us horny.


I actually haven't found women to be lower desire.

I agree with your assessment about men turning women on.

I've found women to be far more than Willing. Adventurous and generous comes to mind honestly.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It sounds like you think a woman can just tell herself to be horny and she'll just be horny. And it sounds like you've joined the ranks who believe she should do it whether she feels like it or not because his needs are more important than hers.
> 
> 
> So we just disagree.


I go to work everyday and most days I don't want to...yet the wife and I like to eat. So I do. I do it because its part of the agreement of marriage.

Seems "selfish" to me that a woman can't be interested and participatory in sex at least more than 1 hour (thats 4 sex sessions) in a whole month. 1 hour.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> And while maybe women are lower desire overall. I think mostly we see across the board many men don't understand what makes us horny. We keep seeing men come on with platitudes like work out. Newsflash we are all different the answer isn't the same for each woman and it isn't even the same for each woman through out her whole life.


This is such an important point.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Anastasia6 said:


> And while maybe women are lower desire overall. I think mostly we see across the board many men don't understand what makes us horny. We keep seeing men come on with platitudes like work out. Newsflash we are all different the answer isn't the same for each woman and it isn't even the same for each woman through out her whole life.


There is also research to show that a woman's desire level is elevated in the honeymoon period of a relationship. 

5 years down the line, her desire level has regressed to her normal level. But her partner's level has stayed constant throughout. He still wants sex at the same level they had when courting. So he tries the same "moves" that worked then. Only now they don't work. He is now confused and frustrated. "X" always worked before. She might also be confused too. Why is she not as into him as before? "X" isn't turning her on anymore so much as just annoying her.

The truth is that they are both behaving as they are hard-wired to. This wider desire difference is perfectly natural. If they can recognize that, maybe they can come together to work out how to deal with this new situation. "X" doesn't work. Ok, she can help him find "Y" and "Z" that help her be more open to his advances. This type of introspection for both partners isn't easy. 

But too often, as can be seen on these boards time and again, she digs in with variations on "All he thinks about is sex" and shuts down. He casts around blindly for the magic "Y" and "Z", growing more hurt, frustrated, and distant as each try fails to get them back to what he remembers of their early days.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Seems "selfish" to me that a woman can't be interested and participatory in sex at least more than 1 hour (thats 4 sex sessions) in a whole month. 1 hour.


In my experience, when the wife senses that the husbands wants sex all the time, she feels under pressure and this feeling never goes away. Every single act is interpreted as leading to sex. There is also a sense of guilt - of not being able to give the sex the husband desires. Overall, it creates a deeply negative dynamic, which is impossible to solve. It's a sort of psychological trap. If the husband backs up, it's seen as a confirmation that the wife is only needed for sex. Using non sexual physical touch is the way to go. But this phase can last months before trust is reinstated. Personally, I could not do it. So I withdrew completely. It was very sad, but my mental health was more important.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Seems "selfish" to me that a woman can't be interested and participatory in sex at least more than 1 hour (thats 4 sex sessions) in a whole month. 1 hour.


If you’re married the one person who is supposed to be sexually (romantically) interested in you is your partner. If they’re not, what’s the point?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> If you’re married the one person who is supposed to be sexually (romantically) interested in you is your partner. If they’re not, what’s the point?


Thank you!!!


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> In my experience, when the wife senses that the husbands wants sex all the time, she feels under pressure and this feeling never goes away. Every single act is interpreted as leading to sex. There is also a sense of guilt - of not being able to give the sex the husband desires. Overall, it creates a deeply negative dynamic, which is impossible to solve. It's a sort of psychological trap. If the husband backs up, it's seen as a confirmation that the wife is only needed for sex. Using non sexual physical touch is the way to go. But this phase can last months before trust is reinstated. Personally, I could not do it. So I withdrew completely. It was very sad, but my mental health was more important.


Or the W is just living in her own mind, coming to her own opinion of what her H is thinking and adding a nefarious intent from him when he's not being evil at all.

Thus she justifies herself saying no to sex, based on unreal situations. But for her own reasons she doesn't want to have sex. So she's happy knowing her fall back reasoning will work for herself. You know, evil bad H, all he wants is sex, that's what she puts out there.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> If you’re married the one person who is supposed to be sexually (romantically) interested in you is your partner. If they’re not, what’s the point?


Because, very often, you have built a life together, you have a house, a mortgage, kids... and throwing everything away for only one component of your marriage sometimes seems silly.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Or the W is just living in her own mind, coming to her own opinion of what her H is thinking and adding a nefarious intent from him when he's not being evil at all.
> 
> Thus she justifies herself saying no to sex, based on unreal situations. But for her own reasons she doesn't want to have sex. So she's happy knowing her fall back reasoning will work for herself. You know, evil bad H, all he wants is sex, that's what she puts out there.


I totally agree with you. With my wife, I never managed to convince her that it wasn't the case. We couldn't break the negativity cycle. I gave up at the end.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Because, very often, you have built a life together, you have a house, a mortgage, kids... and throwing everything away for only one component of your marriage sometimes seems silly.


That person will still have property and children when divorced. But at least in the divorced case they’re free to pursue the point of a romantic relationship which is sex.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> That person will still have property and children when divorced. But at least in the divorced case they’re free to pursue the point of a romantic relationship which is sex.


That person will have another man raising his children. Not a very appealing thought. Many men (not me, mind you) prefer to maintain the status quo and give up on sex.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> That person will have another man raising his children. Not a very appealing thought. Many men (not me, mind you) prefer to maintain the status quo and give up on sex.


I don’t have kids but I think, “another man raising his children” living in a sex starved marriage will end up becoming miserable. Not only is that person literally raising another man’s kids, they’re in the same failed romantic situation you just left, only worse. I’d almost feel bad for that guy as he got suckered big time.

This is assuming it’s not a LL4U situation and it’s more like what is being discussed by DBTR where it’s simply one partner isn’t interested in sex, period, with anyone.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Because, very often, you have built a life together, you have a house, a mortgage, kids... and throwing everything away for only one component of your marriage sometimes seems silly.


So you're saying a sexless M is well, just good enough? A spouse shouldn't feel sex is important?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t have kids but I think, “another man raising his children” living in a sex starved marriage will end up becoming miserable. Not only is that person literally raising another man’s kids, they’re in the same failed romantic situation you just left, only worse. I’d almost feel bad for that guy as he got suckered big time.
> 
> This is assuming it’s not a LL4U situation and it’s more like what is being discussed by DBTR where it’s simply one partner isn’t interested in sex, period, with anyone.


According to statistics, 1 in 3 men are already, unknowingly, raising another man's kid so it doesn't really matter. It's a bad situation any way you look at it


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Because, very often, you have built a life together, you have a house, a mortgage, kids... and throwing everything away for only one component of your marriage sometimes seems silly.


But it is the one "component" that defines a marriage. The kids result from a sexual relationship, the house and mortgage are a means to nurture the children and have a family. The life built together starts with intimacy between a man and a woman. Absent robust loving intimacy, it is a house of cards with no foundation. It is all defined in the Good Book that people don't care to read anymore. First world western decadence.

For sure will never convince those who believe intimacy in a committed marriage is only one component. That expecting that is being "spoiled". One they don't think is any more important than shopping for groceries. What is "silly" is to marry a person who believes that. That way be dragons.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Yeah I don't expect many (or anyone) to understand. Its just I have worked hard for what I have and now just to hand over half just because the wife doesn't want sex feels like I am rewarding her but mostly as then I punish myself.
> 
> I would then not be able to stop working early while on this track I can stop working before I am 55. Who knows what she will want to do but I can at least travel and do things I want even if she doesn't want to join. But if I have to pay out for the big D, that would never happen as I would be working until I am 70+ and half of what I have saved would be gone.
> 
> If I was younger and had less saved, I would 100% agree with you. But thats not the deal life has dealt me. Who knows I could end up with Low T in a few years and never care much for sex and be happier???


How long have you been married to her? You'd probably only split the assets accumulated during the marriage. Did you pick a wife who doesn't work or something?? Because if she has been working just as hard as you, you're essentially each taking what you earned in the event of a divorce, and you're not giving up anything. It might be more doable than you think.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> But it is the one "component" that defines a marriage. The kids result from a sexual relationship, the house and mortgage are a means to nurture the children and have a family. The life built together starts with intimacy between a man and a woman. Absent robust loving intimacy, it is a house of cards with no foundation. It is all defined in the Good Book that people don't care to read anymore. First world western decadence.
> 
> For sure will never convince those who believe intimacy in a committed marriage is only one component. That expecting that is being "spoiled". One they don't think is any more important than shopping for groceries. What is "silly" is to marry a person who believes that. That way be dragons.


These are the same people who usually end up cheating because sex is cheap and meaningless to them


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That all depends on everyone's priorities. I don't look upon men as babies who must be nursed when they cry.
> 
> I look upon men and women as people who should be putting their families first in the overall picture and not just prioritize their sexual needs.
> 
> ...


Then don't be married.

Have roommates and friends. 

A marriage is a sexual relationship. If you don't want to have a full, ongoing, sexual relationship (and your spouse does) YOU SHOULDN'T STAY MARRIED. Instead find a roommate and some really good friends. Live with someone you don't have to have sex with, right? If you don't want sex be friends with someone, not spouses with someone. Because spouses ****!!

People who stay married to someone they don't want an ongoing, fulfilling, sexual relationship with _are selfish_. Selfish.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Yes. I actually have two very high drive friends. One made the mistake of marrying a real nut who wasn't just a nut sexually but in general, so her sexual needs rarely were ever met because he didn't even like sex as we know it and was very hands off even during what he would have called sex, plus into feet which did her no good. The lucky thing is they both started losing their sex drive at the same time and things became far more placid after that and relaxed.
> 
> However divorce is in the works but not to do with that. I would say there are very few married households where everyone is getting exactly what they want when they want it. And you know what? That's adulting.


Adulting is not staying in a marriage with someone you don't want a healthy frequent sex life with JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT THE OTHER BENEFITS.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Should it be all on HIM to build up and preserve his marriage when his sexual needs aren't being met? Why should he give up porn TOO, as well as sex with his monogamous partner?
> 
> While she continues on not feeling any expectations or frustration with money or working or sex...why is HE the only one who has responsibilities to meet HER needs in their marriage?


This times a million. I love you, LisaDiane.

The "she" in this case is selfish, entitled, and staying in a _marriage_ purely for the other benefits. 

Selfish.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It sounds like you think a woman can just tell herself to be horny and she'll just be horny. And it sounds like you've joined the ranks who believe she should do it whether she feels like it or not because his needs are more important than hers.
> 
> 
> So we just disagree.


Nope, not at all what I'm saying. Exact opposite. Both parties needs are equally important is what I am saying. 

It isn't like we are talking about making a woman horny over a man she has no connection to. It seems dysfunctional to me if the husband and wife don't always have some base level sexual attraction to one another. That is what a marriage is, a sexual relationship. If one person decides no more sex it isn't a marriage anymore. If there isn't some base level sexual attraction there isn't a marriage anymore. Maybe my point of view is skewed by the fact that after 30+ years both my wife and are very sexually attracted to each other. That doesn't mean I get sex each and every time I'm interested, but she will give me the opportunity to turn her on if there isn't some solid reason she doesn't want to engage in sex. 

I can actually see where you are coming from. A woman can't turn on if she doesn't have attraction or desire. The problem is, if she doesn't have desire and attraction for her husband then something is seriously wrong in the marriage.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> That person will have another man raising his children. Not a very appealing thought. Many men (not me, mind you) prefer to maintain the status quo and give up on sex.


What other man is gonna sign up for a divorced woman with children WHO DOESN'T LIKE SEX??????

Please tell me.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> So you're saying a sexless M is well, just good enough? A spouse shouldn't feel sex is important?


I think he's saying sometimes the pain of leaving is more than the pain of staying. Still pain.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> A woman can't turn on if she doesn't have attraction or desire. The problem is, if she doesn't have desire and attraction for her husband then something is seriously wrong in the marriage.


This. 

When I approached this discussion with my wife I fully acknowledged that maybe she isn’t into it with me and that’s ok it’s just we won’t be married anymore and we can go our separate ways; because what’s the point?


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> What other man is gonna sign up for a divorced woman with children WHO DOESN'T LIKE SEX??????
> 
> Please tell me.


Because she does like honeymoon sex. Just long enough to rope him in before reverting back to her normal long-term drive level.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> Because she does like honeymoon sex. Just long enough to rope him in before reverting back to her normal long-term drive level.


His wife doesn't sound like she'd even be able to manage that with enthusiasm, though.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> So you're saying a sexless M is well, just good enough? A spouse shouldn't feel sex is important?


Not at all... I wouldn't have it. Twice a month was just about bearable because it kept the connection and the sex was good, but totally sexless? No. We are not together. My wife made a choice knowing the consequences and she decided to go ahead. I'm only saying that some men accept a sexless marriage because they don't want to lose they lifestyle and they want to keep the family. It's not for me, but I understand it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t have kids but I think, “another man raising his children” living in a sex starved marriage will end up becoming miserable. Not only is that person literally raising another man’s kids, they’re in the same failed romantic situation you just left, only worse. I’d almost feel bad for that guy as he got suckered big time.
> 
> This is assuming it’s not a LL4U situation and it’s more like what is being discussed by DBTR where it’s simply one partner isn’t interested in sex, period, with anyone.


When you get a new partner, spouses tend to become sexual again. If it lasts, it's another matter. I wanted a divorce, my wife compromised, so I stayed. But the possibility that a total stranger will raise your kids is real and it's painful. more painful than losing your wife.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh, but that's not true at all. I DO expect that for men as well...it's just that those situations don't come up as often here.
> 
> But I have told men, or the women married to them, that caring about eachother and meeting eachother's needs are how you have a loving relationship. And if you have a partner who doesn't care enough about you to meet your needs, then you don't have a truly loving relationship.
> 
> ...


LD, this is an argument you can’t win. You are going against “the message”. You are thinking rationally and looking at men and women being equals, and as such, believe men and women should treat each other as equals and with respect.

this won’t do.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> What other man is gonna sign up for a divorced woman with children WHO DOESN'T LIKE SEX??????
> 
> Please tell me.


where you are going wrong is that my wife liked sex, she didn't like it with me because I did something wrong, being unable to read her mind.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DownButNotOut said:


> I think he's saying sometimes the pain of leaving is more than the pain of staying. Still pain.


Yes. It's pain, pain, pain. I don't wish it on anybody. You die inside and then try to survive the best you can. Such a miserable existence.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Nope. You are trying to compare apples and oranges.
> 
> I am talking about meeting eachother's needs, not respecting a partner who wants to deny the other their needs repeatedly.
> 
> ...


Oh, I didn’t see this argument continued. I should have kept reading. 😂

lol. Like I said, you can’t win this argument, LD.

your rational and compassionate thinking simply won’t do.


But I’ll say this: I hold you in very high regard as one of the women here that continually speaks up on these forums. I believe your position is one that is held by the majority of women, but you have the courage to speak up.

I think you do a great service for your sons with your objective views on men and women relations. I wouldn’t hold it against you if you swore off all men after what you’ve been put through. You are strong and see things from an elevated view and realize most people are decent people. It’s only the minority that suck bad.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> His wife doesn't sound like she'd even be able to manage that with enthusiasm, though.


we had about 15 years of happy marriage and some kids. Not everything is negative. It didn't end well, but I have my faults too.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> But it is the one "component" that defines a marriage.


Of course... in my case I got the impression that we did all that, we had the kids and that was enough. That "component" went out of the window. I did feel like a sperm donor, mind you...


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Of course... in my case I got the impression that we did that, we had the kids and that was enough. That "component" went out of the window. I did feel like a sperm donor, mind you...


Am I correct that after being traumatized by the experience, you have no interest in trying to ride the marriage merry go round again? Understandable.

If you could go back to before your marriage blew up, what would/could you do to avoid the explosion?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Rus47 said:


> Am I correct that after being traumatized by the experience, you have no interest in trying to ride the marriage merry go round again? Understandable.
> 
> If you could go back to before your marriage blew up, what would/could you do to avoid the explosion?


Good question. A little forensic follow up. I hope @In Absentia is comfortable sharing. I'm always in learn mode.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Good question. A little forensic follow up. I hope @In Absentia is comfortable sharing. I'm always in learn mode.


I have no problem in sharing... see below!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> Am I correct that after being traumatized by the experience, you have no interest in trying to ride the marriage merry go round again? Understandable.
> 
> If you could go back to before your marriage blew up, what would/could you do to avoid the explosion?


Yes, I think I got PTSD from it... not joking. Therefore I have no interest in dating or forming another relationship. I was convinced my marriage was forever and the end of it has been a massive trauma, especially because I felt gaslighted in the last 10 years. It was heart breaking. I always been honest with my wife.

We are separated. Not officially because I don't see the point in giving all my money to her, or living in a tiny one bedroom flat when I have a seven bedroom house.

What would I do if I could go back. Well, I have a confession to make. All of this happened because I was too much focused on my d!ck. Yes, I did not know what was going on, but I only cared about myself and my sex life. So, I would be more supportive and more patient. I have a fiery personality, so I tend to blow up easily and I'm sure that contributed to the creation of an unsettled environment. That said, I do truly believe that the result would have been the same, since my wife refused therapy to fix her mental issues. But I would have taken a more structured and mature approach to the problem. I failed, because I felt abandoned having abandonment issues myself. I wasn't aware of this at the time. But I had an emotional abused childhood + physical abuse from my father (he hit me a lot). All in all, I crumbled, and made things worse. Looking back, I can see all the mistakes I made and it's too late now. I can't fix it so I am condemned to a life of regret.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm gonna ask a couple questions, bear in mind they're honest questions only trying to gain clarity. I tend to break things down in small bites to get to root causes etc.

What exactly did you do that was destructive in the beginning of M? One item at a time or as you believe best form that conveys specifics.

You're a good sport on all this.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

For a number of women, it takes newness to maintain their interest. Those women, sooner or later, become bored in a monogamous relationship. Some may cheat and some may shut things down but sex with the same person doesn’t do it for them long-term. What they don’t do, usually, is get a divorce. Or share that problem with their spouse. Unfortunately.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm gonna ask a couple questions, bear in mind they're honest questions only trying to gain clarity. I tend to break things down in small bites to get to root causes etc.
> 
> What exactly did you do that was destructive in the beginning of M? One item at a time or as you believe best form that conveys specifics.
> 
> You're a good sport on all this.


I didn't do anything destructive at the beginning of the marriage, on the contrary. Problems started after about 15 years. I guess we were overwhelmed with kids and jobs. My wife's mental issues deteriorated. I didn't even know she had any. She kept it from me. She informed me she was going on anti-depressants for her recurring intrusive thoughts. She assured me she wasn't depressed and she was fine. She acted fine. But she lost her sex drive. She kept the severity of her mental issues from me. She withdrew. She was always saying she was fine. So, I got impatient and shouted at her when I got rejected again after 2 weeks of no sex, for no reason. This created a bad atmosphere and basically put my wife in a bad place regarding sex. After a few months I asked for a divorce, she said she would go to therapy. She didn't. But she started giving duty but passionate sex twice a month. She had to "condition" herself to have sex. In all those months she clearly detached but wanted to keep the family together, hence the sex. I had no idea. Because I'm a fool. I though she was doing it because she loved me. She was doing it to keep the family going only to dump me when all the kids were out of the house.

I regret not having supported her more, because I really liked our sex life. It was like a child had died when we hit the issues. It was really sad. But I was immature and I didn't have any information because she didn't speak to me about her issues. In the last conversation about it we had (about 3 years ago), she, magnanimously, apportioned blame 50/50...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I got you. Thanks.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I regret not having supported her more, because I really liked our sex life. It was like a child had died when we hit the issues. It was really sad. But I was immature and I didn't have any information because she didn't speak to me about her issues. *In the last conversation about it we had (about 3 years ago), she, magnanimously, apportioned blame 50/50.*..


I gather you didn't divorce or separate, but live in same house with in/house separation? Has she moved on with someone else? Not sure of your ages but gather you are both nearing 45-50? 

Maybe this is way out of line. If she hasn't moved on, knowing what both of you know now, has there ever been thought of attempting reconciliation? Maybe she has as much regret as you do?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> I gather you didn't divorce or separate, but live in same house with in/house separation? Has she moved on with someone else? Not sure of your ages but gather you are both nearing 45-50?
> 
> Maybe this is way out of line. If she hasn't moved on, knowing what both of you know now, has there ever been thought of attempting reconciliation? Maybe she has as much regret as you do?


we have a in-house separation. But we have 2 houses next to each other and my wife has moved into the other one. We are late ‘50s actually. She has no desire to have another relationship. She doesn’t want to have a sexual relationship either. She’s done with it. She’s put a lot of weight on since we separated. She hates her body. She has two sisters, both with a failed long term relationship. We are the last ones to fail.
I have tried a reconciliation, but she says it’s too late. I’m sure she has some regrets, but she doesn’t show it. As usual, she doesn’t do “feelings”. It could be so easy to have a happy old age together, but there’s nothing I can do about it. Very sad.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> What other man is gonna sign up for a divorced woman with children WHO DOESN'T LIKE SEX??????
> 
> Please tell me.


Oh there are countless simps out there that are so desperate for any kind of female attention that they will gladly take a woman with 4 kids from 4 different baby daddies. 

Now she would have to at least act like she may want to have sex with him at some point. Her pick up line cannot be, "I hate sex but will you feed my offspring?" 

...... of course now that I think about it, there are probably quite a few simps that will fall for that line as well because they think if they can take care of her and the kids well enough, she will change her mind on the sex.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> "I hate sex but will you feed my offspring?"
> 
> ...... of course now that I think about it, there are probably quite a few simps that will fall for that line as well because they think if they can take care of her and the kids well enough, she will change her mind on the sex.


I started laughing but I quickly (sadly) came to the same conclusion.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Oh there are countless simps out there that are so desperate for any kind of female attention that they will gladly take a woman with 4 kids from 4 different baby daddies.
> 
> Now she would have to at least act like she may want to have sex with him at some point. Her pick up line cannot be, "I hate sex but will you feed my offspring?"
> 
> ...... of course now that I think about it, there are probably quite a few simps that will fall for that line as well because they think if they can take care of her and the kids well enough, she will change her mind on the sex.


I don't agree entirely. Some older men just want company. Don't care about sex.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Oh there are countless simps out there that are so desperate for any kind of female attention that they will gladly take a woman with 4 kids from 4 different baby daddies.
> 
> Now she would have to at least act like she may want to have sex with him at some point. Her pick up line cannot be, "I hate sex but will you feed my offspring?"
> 
> ...... of course now that I think about it, there are probably quite a few simps that will fall for that line as well because they think if they can take care of her and the kids well enough, she will change her mind on the sex.


It's sickening


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> I don't agree entirely. Some older men just want company. Don't care about sex.


I wont get into the rights and wrongs, but most people would be pretty surprised at the amount of sex some guys are getting outside of their "sexless" marriages...You certainly aint going to see them posting on a site like this...

I may have mentioned it in another thread, but there is a very wealthy and successful guy I know who has been living in a sexless marriage for close to 20 years...He has had two different high end call girls over the years...sex many times a month,..Other guys I know have done it in other ways..

Anyway, the point is don't just assume guys live in misery here...some do and that's well documented, while some others get what they need from the marriage and when they can't get it all, they find a way to get what's missing...

Again, in no way am I condoning it or saying it's a great way to live a life, but it's not as rare as people think it is.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I don't agree entirely. Some older men just want company. Don't care about sex.


then why be sexually exclusive with a woman who isn't having sex with you?

Companionship can come from a buddy, a relative, a coworker, a neighbor, someone from the country club or the car club, heck even a dog. 

if you want some company and companionship with a woman who isn't having sex with you, OK fine but then why not have sex with someone else that does want to have sex? 

It doesn't make sense to be with someone of the opposite sex for companionship and then forgo sex.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> I wont get into the rights and wrongs, but most people would be pretty surprised at the amount of sex some guys are getting outside of their "sexless" marriages...You certainly aint going to see them posting on a site like this...
> 
> I may have mentioned it in another thread, but there is a very wealthy and successful guy I know who has been living in a sexless marriage for close to 20 years...He has had two different high end call girls over the years...sex many times a month,..Other guys I know have done it in other ways..
> 
> ...


Don't assume that these guy's wives are sexless either.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> then why be sexually exclusive with a woman who isn't having sex with you?
> 
> Companionship can come from a buddy, a relative, a coworker, a neighbor, someone from the country club or the car club, heck even a dog.
> 
> ...


Never made sense to me either. I mean, have some self-worth and self-respect and don't be an ATM


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Don't assume that these guy's wives are sexless either.


True...no doubt

But a lot of these situations usually involve women that have 'given up" and closed the factory, so to speak....Mosty 200 lb plus FB addicted Karen's with shytty attitudes and zero sex appeal aren't going to have many guys lined up for them...I think what you are talking about would be a lot easier to detect....Those are the one's that all of a sudden decide to get a personal trainer, drop a pile of weight, get tits and face done, etc...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> then why be sexually exclusive with a woman who isn't having sex with you?
> 
> Companionship can come from a buddy, a relative, a coworker, a neighbor, someone from the country club or the car club, heck even a dog.
> 
> ...


They just want an exclusive relationship/friendship, but no sex. I don't find it illogical.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> True...no doubt
> 
> But a lot of these situations usually involve women that have 'given up" and closed the factory, so to speak....Mosty 200 lb plus FB addicted Karen's with shytty attitudes and zero sex appeal aren't going to have many guys lined up for them...I think what you are talking about would be a lot easier to detect....Those are the one's that all of a sudden decide to get a personal trainer, drop a pile of weight, get tits and face done, etc...


You will be surprised how many desperate men will have a go...


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

‘Men’ with no self respect, sense of self worth? I wonder if lack of self respect in a ‘man’ leads to women staying clear.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> ‘Men’ with no self respect, sense of self worth? I wonder if lack of self respect in a ‘man’ leads to women staying clear.


Good women yes. Women looking for a high return will minimal investment no.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> They just want an exclusive relationship/friendship, but no sex. I don't find it illogical.


Mmmmmm'kay


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Mmmmmm'kay


There are plenty of threads on TAM about men not wanting sex... happy with friendship/companionship.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> There are plenty of threads on TAM about men not wanting sex... happy with friendship/companionship.


There are lots of threads about men who don’t want to put in the work to have a sex life. 

I can’t think of one off the top of my head that was happy about being celibate.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> You will be surprised how many desperate men will have a go...



My mother and all her sisters were either divorced or widowed by the time they hit early/mid 40's ...These were gorgeous women, not overweight,no wrinkles, etc....Not only did they not get married again, none of them even dated...I'd say that the number one reason is that these women didn't really need men in their lives anymore...What they did to satisfy themselves sexually is anyone's guess...They certainly wouldn't find it hard to get, there were many men trying...I guess they were just :"done" with guys at that point...They were very strong, accomplished in their own right, had a wide circle of friends and family and didn't think it was worth it...

Let me be clear, I don't think women that aren't "done" with men and enjoy the companionship and sex are somehow damaged in any way, just that a lot of women do in fact "give up" on it....Lets face it, a LOT of aging women have some sort of body hang ups and know full well that a new man is going to want to get intimately close to those issues and yes, want some sex...It may just be too much trouble for the effort involved.. So many women enjoy more active social lives with other women, FAR more than guys do, so why then would they want to introduce a guy into it, unless their ***** was on fire and needed to be put out??....lol


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

This would make an interesting survey. Percent woman and men by age group “done” with the opposite gender. Your anecdotal evidence is interesting. Kinda parallels survival of widowers vs widows after death of a spouse,

If I ever become a widower, have no interest in ever becoming involved. I have been married to the best, so from here would just be downhill. Wouldn't expect to live long alone anyway. Wife otoh would likely do fine if I kick the bucket.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I would probably be done. I don't really think I would get married again if Mrs. C passed. I can't see loving someone like that again.

Realistically though, I'm kind of a horny bastard and I might end up married anyhow.😵‍💫


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I would probably be done. I don't really think I would get married again if Mrs. C passed. I can't see loving someone like that again.
> 
> Realistically though, I'm kind of a horny bastard and I might end up married anyhow.😵‍💫


Don't have to get married to satisfy that need, I haven't


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Don't have to get married to satisfy that need, I haven't


LoL! I'm bound by my faith brother. I'm not saying I wouldn't slip but I won't be havin any lady ride my pony without the matrimony.😉


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I would probably be done. I don't really think I would get married again if Mrs. C passed. I can't see loving someone like that again.
> 
> Realistically though, I'm kind of a horny bastard and I might end up married anyhow.😵‍💫


You would likely HAVE to get married.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> Don't have to get married to satisfy that need, I haven't


Yep, I wouldn't get married again just for that reason!


----------



## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I'm bound by my faith brother. I'm not saying I wouldn't slip but I won't be havin any lady ride my pony without the matrimony.😉


I respect that but in my case, all was awesome, then we said "I do" and she said "I don't" Our sex was incredible until we got hitched.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I'm bound by my faith brother. I'm not saying I wouldn't slip but I won't be havin any lady ride my pony without the matrimony.😉


Stay strong!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I respect that but in my case, all was awesome, then we said "I do" and she said "I don't" Our sex was incredible until we got hitched.


It's the oldest joke in history you know


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I respect that but in my case, all was awesome, then we said "I do" and she said "I don't" Our sex was incredible until we got hitched.


I'm an old hand at being a bit of a lady's man and nowhere near green.

I'm pretty good at sussing out the hot blooded from the cold.

I'm also up front about requirements which, at my age range, shouldn't be too hard of a conversation.

I've found older women to be pretty down to earth and less prudish when talking about sex.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> This would make an interesting survey. Percent woman and men by age group “done” with the opposite gender. Your anecdotal evidence is interesting. Kinda parallels survival of widowers vs widows after death of a spouse,
> 
> If I ever become a widower, have no interest in ever becoming involved. I have been married to the best, so from here would just be downhill. Wouldn't expect to live long alone anyway. Wife otoh would likely do fine if I kick the bucket.


May be a good thread....My suspicions...

It may be easier for women to be "done" because they often have wider social circles and can seemingly transition better....If their drive falls off, its easier to live a life and not worry about maintaining a great body, etc..Despite the fact that a lot of women do maintain their appearance for themselves, a lot do it to make sure they look appealing to the opposite sex... Once that's gone, then all the wine, cheesecake, etc. til your hearts desire..Also the make up and hair attention can get exhausting at some point, again...just speculation...

Add to that, the guys that they have to pick from aren't prizes...Most don't give a crap about their appearance and the ones that do, will probably be looking for younger women...Funny story, one of my aunts got coerced by a co worker to go on a date with a guy when she was in her late 50's...She still looked pretty good, but the guy came to meet her at the restaurant, hunched over with a noticeable limp...She cut the date short and said the major reason is she couldn't envision this guy naked....Her first husband was a very good looking man...just couldn't keep only one woman, so he left her and went back to his country, where a man can have several women...

My grandfather was still banging his 40 something tenant when he was in his mid 70's...This was long before Viagra....Add that the fact that I think a lot of guys get "scared" to be alone in their later years...They know they probably will fade out faster than a woman, so they look to that...They don't normally have as wide a circle of friends as women do as well....

One of the saddest and most sobering thing I had ever seen was I had to meet a client at an assisted living facility...We met in the "recreation room" of the facility...The place was loaded with chatty and seemingly happy little old ladies playing cards and conversing at the tables......while two or 3 men in wheelchairs were hunched over in the perimeter of the room, either staring at the ground or watching TV....all by themselves...


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> My mother and all her sisters were either divorced or widowed by the time they hit early/mid 40's ...These were gorgeous women, not overweight,no wrinkles, etc....Not only did they not get married again, none of them even dated...I'd say that the number one reason is that these women didn't really need men in their lives anymore...What they did to satisfy themselves sexually is anyone's guess...They certainly wouldn't find it hard to get, there were many men trying...I guess they were just :"done" with guys at that point...They were very strong, accomplished in their own right, had a wide circle of friends and family and didn't think it was worth it...
> 
> Let me be clear, I don't think women that aren't "done" with men and enjoy the companionship and sex are somehow damaged in any way, just that a lot of women do in fact "give up" on it....Lets face it, a LOT of aging women have some sort of body hang ups and know full well that a new man is going to want to get intimately close to those issues and yes, want some sex...It may just be too much trouble for the effort involved.. So many women enjoy more active social lives with other women, FAR more than guys do, so why then would they want to introduce a guy into it, unless their *** was on fire and needed to be put out??....lol


I think that's very accurate. That's pretty much me. But now, some women are never happy alone and would rather have the chaos than the peace. I do think that changes for some as they get older, though. I'll use my friend who's going through divorce now and be curious if her tune changes (right now she's done with men, but she never has been before). And she has kids for company. 

My other close girlfriend had a bad deal with her husband right when she had a young daughter to raise. He got another head injury that turned him into someone else and he died after abandoning his family. She was pretty much done, though she kept a couple guys around (I guess her love language is service because that seems to be how they kept their foot in the door) just dangling for years. I think she did have sex with one of them occasionally, then went a long time after he wanted to be with her and she said no, wasn't ready. Years later, now she is seeing him, but he is way needier than her and the thing they fight about is he wants more time with her and she wants only one date a week. She works very hard for her age and health, and he does not, plus he has a childlike nonstop busy, busy personality that wears you out. We talked more about it last night, in fact. 

He would agree to, say, two days a week and then when he was supposed to let her recharge from work, he'd manipulate by dropping by with a freaking burrito or anything to make her feel guilty to turn him away. So that went on until last year, she blew up at him (she has a very long fuse) and they didn't see each other for two months after she told him she was serious about only one date a week. She thinks he gets it now, but I did notice that instead of burrito, she said he came over and mowed her lawn, and I know that works for her. So you can imagine how guilty she'd feel to kick him out for dropping by to mow her lawn. 

Everyone has their price, I guess. And that's okay. I just worry about her health. She gets very rundown and is pain a lot, working a full schedule still at her age. She says one reason she can't be around him more is he can't just sit and be quiet and relax together. Like having a toddler around. I wonder if he has a brain chemical imbalance, but she thinks it's just because he doesn't work much at all and is bored. He is creative, so he is always drawing something. Women just get tired sooner or later.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

My wife has two sisters, both got rid of their partners and they are happy together. They don’t need men in their lives. They have their children, grandchildren and they don’t have to put up with relationships or sex. They are happy to eat as much chocolate as they want and be fat. I understand that.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> My wife has two sisters, both got rid of their partners and they are happy together. They don’t need men in their lives. They have their children, grandchildren and they don’t have to put up with relationships or sex. They are happy to eat as much chocolate as they want and be fat. I understand that.


Yeah, makes a lot of sense. 

I can't see wanting to live with another person again. I like my own space.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I can't see wanting to live with another person again. I like my own space.


yeah, it does make a lot of sense… I’m getting fat myself, on my own… 😀


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I find it much easier to implement a healthy diet, living alone.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> I find it much easier to implement a healthy diet, living alone.


This conversation played out like a particularly witty script!

Meaning to or not, you just made me laugh!

Great interplay and I appreciate some health myself but I'm fortunate to be married to a health minded lady.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Laurentium said:


> I find it much easier to implement a healthy diet, living alone.


Getting on my bike again in spring, health permitting.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I'm an old hand at being a bit of a lady's man and nowhere near green.
> 
> I'm pretty good at sussing out the hot blooded from the cold.
> 
> ...


Well, I would consider my wife "kinda old" and she played a good game in the 5 years we dated...(sex every day, anal, sex in the pool, etc) then it all went downhill after the wedding.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well, I would consider my wife "kinda old" and she played a good game in the 5 years we dated...(sex every day, anal, sex in the pool, etc) then it all went downhill after the wedding.


Really? How old were you when dating? I wouldn't stand for it.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Really? How old were you when dating? I wouldn't stand for it.


40s (me) and 50s (her) back when we met.

And yep, thats been my whole issue. But I won't belabor the point as I know many are tired of hearing it. Just wanted to share that no matter how old anyone might be, it seems (at least to me) dating is no indication of what marriage will be down the road.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> 40s (me) and 50s (her) back when we met.
> 
> And yep, thats been my whole issue. But I won't belabor the point as I know many are tired of hearing it. Just wanted to share that no matter how old anyone might be, it seems (at least to me) dating is no indication of what marriage will be down the road.


I guarantee that if I marry because I can't refrain from sex, I sure as hell will get it annulled if she was good enough to fake me out.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Numb26 said:


> Women looking for a high return will minimal investment no.


I believe most women do not want a guy who would put up with this sort of behavior. There probably are issues which will manifest in some way other than not having a backbone.

Good guys (at least those above a certain age) have options and don't have to put up with it, or they'll be good single. So, a lady who would put up with such a guy probably wants a quick return, or maybe has her own issues and does not have many options herself.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> May be a good thread....My suspicions...
> 
> It may be easier for women to be "done" because they often have wider social circles and can seemingly transition better....If their drive falls off, its easier to live a life and not worry about maintaining a great body, etc..Despite the fact that a lot of women do maintain their appearance for themselves, a lot do it to make sure they look appealing to the opposite sex... Once that's gone, then all the wine, cheesecake, etc. til your hearts desire..Also the make up and hair attention can get exhausting at some point, again...just speculation...
> 
> ...


As a man in his early 40's, if my current relationship doesn't work out for any reason, I am basically done. I've been around the block too many times, seen too many marriages break up lately, and I just have 0 interest in starting over again. I have noticed that most of my hobbies and interests are not often shared with ladies so I don't need women that. Sex has always been pretty easy to come by so I would just keep a few female friends around for occasional company and that's about it. Maybe travel the world on occasion and have flings on vacation. Not such a bad life, even if it isn't what I originally wanted. 

I do understand why ladies can be quick to give up on men later in life. I know so really, really homely women who still have several guys on rotation to come over and have sex with them when they want it. One woman I've known for years who is legitimately one of the least attractive women I have ever met gets together with a guy half her age occasionally just to give him a BJ. You don't need charm, game, or even decent looks as a woman to get laid when you want it, you just need to be willing. Like you say, ladies often have a far better social network then men have also. I'm surprised more ladies don't give up on dating as they get older.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Well, I would consider my wife "kinda old" and she played a good game in the 5 years we dated...(sex every day, anal, sex in the pool, etc) then it all went downhill after the wedding.


So you could have been on Netflix playing Brad n Billie (in the pool)? Seems to me she did a bait n switch on you. Did she do the same with her former spouse? Did you interview him?

I got better than what dating advertised (which was pretty nice) once the rings were on our fingers. 

My combat marine dad always told me to interview a woman's mom to see what the prospect would be like in reality. I did that, and found my wife's mom was one of the kindest, empathetic, honest, unentitled, persons have ever met. A great cook too. And she raised her daughter to be a carbon copy.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I guarantee that if I marry because I can't refrain from sex, I sure as hell will get it annulled if she was good enough to fake me out.


+1 to that. I am pretty traditional so I’d probably eventually attempt to re-marry and if there was a fake out happening then it would be an immediate NEXT!

The problem is the slow roll fake out. Now I have accurate records of what is happening so I can see any gradual adjustment in an objective way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Laurentium said:


> I find it much easier to implement a healthy diet, living alone.


I would too. 

If I was on my own I would actually eat quite well and I would also likely spend a lot more quality time at the gym. 

I'm not in bad shape for a man my age now, but I am quite certain if I was on my own, I would eat very well and live a quite healthy lifestyle. 

My wife brings a ton of crap into the house. You'd think she would be 300lbs but she's not. She's actually quite slender and pretty. She's not eating the crap she's bringing into the house. I honestly think a part of it is she is trying to sabotage my diet. 

Granted, she doesn't force it into my mouth and I don't have to eat it, but when it is right there..............


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Granted, she doesn't force it into my mouth and I don't have to eat it, but when it is right there..............


Willpower…


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> 40s (me) and 50s (her) back when we met.
> 
> And yep, thats been my whole issue. But I won't belabor the point as I know many are tired of hearing it. Just wanted to share that no matter how old anyone might be, it seems (at least to me) dating is no indication of what marriage will be down the road.


"Girlfriends are better than wives."

- Richard Cooper


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Willpower…


Yeah I know and like I said, compared to most guys my age, I am in pretty good shape. 

But as I said above, if I were on my own, I wouldn't have it in the house at all.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I tend to eat and drink a lot when I'm not well... like now.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> So you could have been on Netflix playing Brad n Billie (in the pool)? Seems to me she did a bait n switch on you. Did she do the same with her former spouse? Did you interview him?
> 
> I got better than what dating advertised (which was pretty nice) once the rings were on our fingers.
> 
> My combat marine dad always told me to interview a woman's mom to see what the prospect would be like in reality. I did that, and found my wife's mom was one of the kindest, empathetic, honest, unentitled, persons have ever met. A great cook too. And she raised her daughter to be a carbon copy.


It does feel a bit like a bait and switch for not just the sex but the working as well.

Never met her ex but hey were married a long time. Her parents are long gone so that was never an option.

All the drawbacks of getting remarried later in life I suppose?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> +1 to that. I am pretty traditional so I’d probably eventually attempt to re-marry and if there was a fake out happening then it would be an immediate NEXT!
> 
> The problem is the slow roll fake out. Now I have accurate records of what is happening so I can see any gradual adjustment in an objective way.


Yeah the slow roll kills you as all is well for a few years and then you think that its good. Then 5 or so years down the road it changes but by then, you are into it.

Hence why I say (and probably based on hindsight) I wouldn't ever get married again for that reason. And I honestly would not recommend marriage to anyone after being divorced. Stay single and just date. Even if it become a LTR, don't get married.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think the interesting thing to study would be to see what it is that people are actually "done" with at a given age. 

At my current age and position in life, I would still want female companionship, physical affection and sexual intimacy and assume I will until I die. My goal in death is as I am laying gurgling and crapping myself struggling for my last few gasps of air, is to cop a feel off of the nurse one last time as I start to soar into the light LOL

But what I am done with is raising kids and telling them to pick up their crap and a million other things associated with child rearing and family life with kids etc. 

I wouldn't need to remarry at all and see no point once bearing and raising children is no longer in the picture. I'd be ok with a committed relationship with the right person. 

But I would also be ok with spinning plates casually and may be ok with just being a plate myself as long as my wants and needs were being met. 

I would probably be ok with cohabitating with the right person. But would likely be ok and perhaps even prefer maintaining separate houses. 

I played societies game, and other than 10 years in the swinging lifestyle, I have lived the traditional judeo-christian life of going to work, getting married, raising a family, mowing the lawn and paying my taxes. 

Now I 58 years old. My oldest moves out this summer. My youngest turns 18 and graduates next year. My plumbing is disconnected so I won't knock anyone up. I have good health insurance so if I get an STI I will go to the doctor and get it treated. I have served humanity and my community in the public safety and medical professions and I statistically only have roughly 20 more years left on this earth and hope I can remain fit and healthy enough to enjoy them. 

But I doubt if the church ladies and that guy with the funny hat at the Vatican are necessarily going to approve of some of my life choices going forward. 

I've lived their life and play their game for a long time. I don't even know what I'm going to do next but I'm sure that some are not going to approve of it. 

I have the feeling that there are some middle age women feeling very similar out there.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I think the interesting thing to study would be to see what it is that people are actually "done" with at a given age.
> 
> At my current age and position in life, I would still want female companionship, physical affection and sexual intimacy and assume I will until I die. My goal in death is as I am laying gurgling and crapping myself struggling for my last few gasps of air, is to cop a feel off of the nurse one last time as I start to soar into the light LOL
> 
> ...


It sounds like you have lived well and the swinging aspect sounds fun. At least being able to say you all did that is an experience to be lived even if you don't do it forever. I think it would have been fun to at least share that experience with someone even for a time or two. Just one of those things to say it was fun to experience.

For the other things, I agree. I am just a few years younger than you but I am also done with a lot of things. One is working. I CANNOT WAIT to stop working! And hopefully that will occur in about 2 years or so.

No kids here so don't have that in my life but am looking forward to not having to be a "responsible working person" anymore. No emails. No phone calls. No reports to write. No work trips.

Just all of my own time...Not sure what I will do but eager to see the possibilities.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm nearly 59. No way I am going to re-marry. Dating and travelling yes, but I'm done with marriage, kids and being a slave to other people's needs.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> Never met her ex but hey were married a long time.


Too late in your case, but wouldn’t it be a best practice to talk with an ex if possible? And have a background done on the prospect? And if marriage contemplated, a prenup agreement drawn up?

Like to believe if was involved with a person contemplating ltr, would do the above.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I'm nearly 59. No way I am going to re-marry. Dating and travelling yes, but I'm done with marriage, kids and being a slave to other people's needs.


I think the key here is avoiding that sort of relationship in which one might feel enslaved, rather than empowered, to help with another’s needs. Your ex likely felt like she would be in the role of a slave were she to meet your sexual needs.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Casual Observer said:


> I think the key here is avoiding that sort of relationship in which one might feel enslaved, rather than empowered, to help with another’s needs. Your ex likely felt like she would be in the role of a slave were she to meet your sexual needs.


Marriage and child-rearing may not necessarily be slavery (although for some people it pretty much is) but more like a form of indentured servitude. 

For basically 18 years per child, one often has to put their own wants and needs aside to a degree and are expected to remain with that person “for the children.” 

Whether it’s real or imagined, Women in particular often feel tremendous pressure to sacrifice their own interests in the interests of the families, church, community etc until they reach a certain age and then say F’k it and go off the rails. 

The feminists and pop culture tend to support women who decide they’ve had enough sacrifice for others.

When men do it, they’re accused of being selfish, a deadbeat or having a midlife crisis or simply being a cad.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Marriage and child-rearing may not necessarily be slavery (although for some people it pretty much is) but more like a form of indentured servitude.
> 
> For basically 18 years per child, one often has to put their own wants and needs aside to a degree and are expected to remain with that person “for the children.”
> 
> ...


I think the issue may be waiting too long to re-examine our roles and what we define as in our best interest. What fuels our desires. Are we building a legacy that’s burning up fuel and not sustainable, or are we finding ever greater sources of positive emotional fuel/reinforcement as we go?

I don’t think we can get to the latter on blind faith. We might get so far and then snap. Have an eiphany of sorts that not only changed the present but re-writes (negatively) our past.

if there’s a constant, it’s that where we are, what we think, is a result of our past. The variable is that we have an ability to reshape and rewrite that past, for good and bad. Mental illness comes into play here.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Too late in your case, but wouldn’t it be a best practice to talk with an ex if possible? And have a background done on the prospect? And if marriage contemplated, a prenup agreement drawn up?
> 
> Like to believe if was involved with a person contemplating ltr, would do the above.


But I wonder if you would get an accurate reading from that discussion? I would be a perfect example. My ex left as I didn't make enough money. Yet two years after we divorced, I got a far better job so she would have shared what SHE experienced but it wouldn't be accurate at that point two years later.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> It does feel a bit like a bait and switch for not just the sex but the working as well.
> 
> Never met her ex but hey were married a long time. Her parents are long gone so that was never an option.
> 
> All the drawbacks of getting remarried later in life I suppose?


No, juat the drawbacks of marrying the wrong person.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Marriage and child-rearing may not necessarily be slavery (although for some people it pretty much is) but more like a form of indentured servitude.
> 
> For basically 18 years per child, one often has to put their own wants and needs aside to a degree and are expected to remain with that person “for the children.”
> 
> ...


To be realistic, historically men were not putting in all that much effort with the children.. that's what takes up all the time and wears you down. More and more are being more involved now due to trends of stay at home dads as well as single dads sharing 50/50 custody. So yes they were judged differently because there's no tie down 24/7 job like a kid tie down.

It might just make things a little healthier when things even out like that as they are starting to do little by little. Obviously no one should make decisions that make them feel enslaved, but it happens.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> To be realistic, historically men were not putting in all that much effort with the children.. that's what takes up all the time and wears you down.


Ok but let’s keep in mind men were building everything from pyramids to skyscrapers,plowing fields for food , spilling their blood in wars, fighting fires and outlaws, exploring the new world and venturing into space. 

Those things can tend to wear one down too.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It might just make things a little healthier when things even out like that as they are starting to do little by little. Obviously no one should make decisions that make them feel enslaved, but it happens.


Having children is for sure a lot of work that’s not appreciated (my son once told me on a beach in Hawaii that making him put down his iPad and play in the water made this “the worst day of my life” 🙄) but there’s a lot of it that’s pretty great. I don’t feel that I’ve sacrificed for my son, but I did make choices that have affected my career. I’d be farther up at work, but I wouldn’t change it, this is better. These days dads are doing a lot more and realizing that getting to know your kid, being a part of his childhood and helping to shape him into a whole person as more than just that guy with the belt is pretty rewarding stuff. I think for a long time men dismissed raising kids as lowly woman’s work (after all, they needed to build skyscrapers and go to space) and they missed out on all the good stuff while they were avoiding the drudgery they felt was beneath them. I think sharing the child rearing has been a good thing for men, it’s opened up a new world and they are actually closer to their kids. Plus their wives are MUCH happier when they feel like a life partner instead of the hired help. And the kids benefit too.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Having children is for sure a lot of work that’s not appreciated (my son once told me on a beach in Hawaii that making him put down his iPad and play in the water made this “the worst day of my life” 🙄) but there’s a lot of it that’s pretty great. I don’t feel that I’ve sacrificed for my son, but I did make choices that have affected my career. I’d be farther up at work, but I wouldn’t change it, this is better. These days dads are doing a lot more and realizing that getting to know your kid, being a part of his childhood and helping to shape him into a whole person as more than just that guy with the belt is pretty rewarding stuff. I think for a long time men dismissed raising kids as lowly woman’s work (after all, they needed to build skyscrapers and go to space) and they missed out on all the good stuff while they were avoiding the drudgery they felt was beneath them. I think sharing the child rearing has been a good thing for men, it’s opened up a new world and they are actually closer to their kids. Plus their wives are MUCH happier when they feel like a life partner instead of the hired help. And the kids benefit too.


Oh, jeez, these kids and their phones! See, as a country girl who just loved the outdoors, if I had a kid not liking the outdoors, it would drive me crazy. And make him/her phoneless, I might add. I would be a tyrant and strip anything to play with out of the house. I wouldn't be nice or fair about it. Then I'd send them off to one of those ranches where kids have to earn their meals if they didn't voluntarily join the Scouts. Hahaha. I never said I was even-handed.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> But I wonder if you would get an accurate reading from that discussion? I would be a perfect example. My ex left as I didn't make enough money. Yet two years after we divorced, I got a far better job so she would have shared what SHE experienced but it wouldn't be accurate at that point two years later.


Ok, a man considering your x for ltr or marriage. She tells him whatever her story is. He contacts you and tell him she left because you didn't make enough money. That alone ought to warn him offm who wants to marry a gold digger? BTW, did she manage to con anyone else to fall into her trap? If so, he should have talked with you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Ok, a man considering your x for ltr or marriage. She tells him whatever her story is. He contacts you and tell him she left because you didn't make enough money. That alone ought to warn him offm who wants to marry a gold digger? BTW, did she manage to con anyone else to fall into her trap? If so, he should have talked with you.


Who gets involved with golddiggers are men who are willing to pay for women more attractive than they could otherwise attract. (And also men who are just like them, common interest so to speak)


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Oh, jeez, these kids and their phones! See, as a country girl who just loved the outdoors, if I had a kid not liking the outdoors, it would drive me crazy. And make him/her phoneless, I might add. I would be a tyrant and strip anything to play with out of the house. I wouldn't be nice or fair about it. Then I'd send them off to one of those ranches where kids have to earn their meals if they didn't voluntarily join the Scouts. Hahaha. I never said I was even-handed.


The United States is a constitutional republic with elected leaders beholden to the people. Our house is not. 🇺🇸We have a “no screens in National Parks” rule (most of our trips are to parks), and now that he’s older he’s snorkeling, hiking, rock climbing and scuba diving so it’s no longer an issue. (We have a new issue, keeping up with him underwater. He’s a fish.) He’s also in the Scouts. Is it voluntary? Dunno. Didn’t ask because it wasn’t up to him. 😉 My husband is super involved in Scouts with him (he should just give up and become Scoutmaster, we all know he’s gonna. Someone needs to teach those spoiled little larva to be men 😉) and they go on 4-5 “man trips” a year doing active, outdoor things with no signal or screens. He complains now but when he’s an adult he will do the same thing with his kids, I betcha. And he will remember how much his father loved him and wanted to be with him.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Who gets involved with golddiggers are men who are willing to pay for women more attractive than they could otherwise attract. (And also men who are just like them, common interest so to speak)


I don’t tend to feel sorry for men in those situations. Everyone, including the men invoked, know precisely why a beautiful 23-year-old dates a man over 40 and we know it ain’t love. And he’s not exactly interested in her character. It’s a transaction. The oldest transaction.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I don’t tend to feel sorry for men in those situations. Everyone, including the men invoked, know precisely why a beautiful 23-year-old dates a man over 40 and we know it ain’t love. And he’s not exactly interested in her character. It’s a transaction. The oldest transaction.


It might be 'daddy' issues. We have had female relatives with badly flawed fathers who married older men as badly flawed as the woman's father.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Rus47 said:


> It might be 'daddy' issues. We have had female relatives with badly flawed fathers who married older men as badly flawed as the woman's father.


That’s fair, and very true. I myself almost fell victim to that. He was only 7 years older than me, but he was very like my father. It was by chance that I learned who he was in time to escape, I had no idea I was about to marry another abuser. My difference was I didn’t want another daddy, and he almost fooled me into thinking he wasn’t that. There is no way to overstate the importance of good, loving fathers for the mental health of children.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The United States is a constitutional republic with elected leaders beholden to the people. Our house is not. 🇺🇸We have a “no screens in National Parks” rule (most of our trips are to parks), and now that he’s older he’s snorkeling, hiking, rock climbing and scuba diving so it’s no longer an issue. (We have a new issue, keeping up with him underwater. He’s a fish.) He’s also in the Scouts. Is it voluntary? Dunno. Didn’t ask because it wasn’t up to him. 😉 My husband is super involved in Scouts with him (he should just give up and become Scoutmaster, we all know he’s gonna. Someone needs to teach those spoiled little larva to be men 😉) and they go on 4-5 “man trips” a year doing active, outdoor things with no signal or screens. He complains now but when he’s an adult he will do the same thing with his kids, I betcha. And he will remember how much his father loved him and wanted to be with him.


Good! Maybe he was just pouting that day for you ruining his day there in hellish Hawaii 😂


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> It might be 'daddy' issues. We have had female relatives with badly flawed fathers who married older men as badly flawed as the woman's father.


I knew one of those who was just 20 years old. She was on a fan board of mine long time ago. She would go after middle-aged guys -- and not just any middle-aged guys but really GROSS ones. Like this one guy also on my board who was disgusting in every way, but she wasn't a golddigger (and he didn't have money) but she went from Canada to UK to meet him. Turns out she is severely mentally ill (sweet girl though). Like she had this condition where whatever psychotropic med you need acts in the opposite way on you, so nothing worked on her various diagnoses. It was sad.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Good! Maybe he was just pouting that day for you ruining his day there in hellish Hawaii 😂


It was actually really hard not to laugh. He was 5, and the drama, oh my heavens the drama. Life was OVER, just hit the self destruct button on the earth, we are DONE. Because I said, “no more iPad, little bear, we’re going to play in the ocean.” Llamas everywhere were all, “DUDE. Seriously.”


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I was at a bar today watching Daytona 500 with a buddy while the wives watched a romantic comedy. We went to the crappiest bar within walking distance and there were many “floozies” there. Due to our high virtue we left unscathed.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I was at a bar today watching Daytona 500 with a buddy while the wives watched a romantic comedy. We went to the crappiest bar within walking distance and there were many “floozies” there. Due to our high virtue we left unscathed.


Proud of you brother!!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So I assume if the roles were reversed and the wife was high drive, husband low drive it would be okay for him to only allow sex maybe once a month and on special occassions?


Here's an equally good question. Is this refusal to accommodate okay only WRT sex? Or does it extend to other aspects of marriage?

In my marriage, my W expected that I accept a bad sex life while at the same time meeting her high expectations for things she felt were important (providing her a materially nice lifestyle).

My position is that sex is neither more nor less important than her wants and needs. Once the basics are at hand, it's not appropriate to expect me to push hard to give her what she wants.

What do you think?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> Here's an equally good question. Is this refusal to accommodate okay only WRT sex? Or does it extend to other aspects of marriage?
> 
> In my marriage, my W expected that I accept a bad sex life while at the same time meeting her high expectations for things she felt were important (providing her a materially nice lifestyle).
> 
> ...


I think it's a brilliant point, that is purposefully overlooked.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I think it's a brilliant point, that is purposefully overlooked.


But there are very few 'experts' supporting a transactional view of sex, basically reducing it to a need. And here on TAM, we see plenty of people saying that you don't "get" more sex by doing things for your spouse, but rather that you have to take kind of a leadership role. And it's nearly always in the context of a guy who's not getting "enough."

I think... I think this isn't nearly so much about the actual act or need for sex, as it is rejection and the power that comes with being able to reject someone. You would think that two people in love with each other would see sacrifice for their spouse in a favorable light, especially when it isn't something that involves a whole lot of time and effort. You feel special because they feel special. 

I keep coming back to it being a power or control thing. The ability to say "no" is absolute, but that doesn't mean doing so isn't, at times, a form of abuse.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Casual Observer said:


> But there are very few 'experts' supporting a transactional view of sex, basically reducing it to a need.


Actually, I don't see this as transactional at all. I see this as determining if we are truly a partnership of equals as a matter of principle. The questions from me to her are "Do you care about me enough to see my wants and needs as equally important as your own?" Are you willing to put the same effort into meeting my needs as you expect me to put into meeting your own?"

Honestly, if the answer to either of those questions is "no", you don't have a partnership of equals. Instead, you have an assertion that my wants and needs matter less than hers (or men's wants and needs should be subordinate to women's in general). I've learned that mindset doesn't work for me. I'm not willing to be treated as a junior partner. A lady who doesn't believe I'm equal, but puts up with me anyways, probably won't keep that up forever.

And, before we drag this into the realm of "sex isn't a need, you can rub one out", most of what is in our daily lives are not needs either. You don't need a nice house, new cars, a large wardrobe, jewelry, vacations, etc. If someone wants me to push (get a tougher job, work more) and sacrifice for her (cheerfully) it's only appropriate I get the same level of deference and service in return.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> But there are very few 'experts' supporting a transactional view of sex, basically reducing it to a need. And here on TAM, we see plenty of people saying that you don't "get" more sex by doing things for your spouse, but rather that you have to take kind of a leadership role. And it's nearly always in the context of a guy who's not getting "enough."
> 
> I think... I think this isn't nearly so much about the actual act or need for sex, as it is rejection and the power that comes with being able to reject someone. You would think that two people in love with each other would see sacrifice for their spouse in a favorable light, especially when it isn't something that involves a whole lot of time and effort. You feel special because they feel special.
> 
> I keep coming back to it being a power or control thing. The ability to say "no" is absolute, but that doesn't mean doing so isn't, at times, a form of abuse.


I agree. Who doesn't feel bad when you try to initiate sex and your partner says No? And after enough times that rejection can turn to other feelings. When you hear more No than Yes, its a problem.


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