# Men Doing More Chores Increases Divorce?



## farsidejunky

The More Chores A Husband Does, The More Likely The Marriage Will End In Divorce

I don't know if I necessarily agree with this, but what the heck...I felt like stirring the pot.

Ladies are encouraged to comment as well, please.

Discuss.


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## EllisRedding

I found it interesting that one conclusion was that within relationships having defined roles seemed to be a better option.

I think in part as well, with more women working and being independent, they don't have to be "stuck" in an unfavorable situation. As well, it appears that marriage in general is viewed as more disposable these days.

The one thing I wish they clarified in the article, for all the participants, what was the job status of each (i.e. both full time, equivalent hours, part time, SAH, etc...)


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## urf

farsidejunky said:


> The More Chores A Husband Does, The More Likely The Marriage Will End In Divorce
> 
> I don't know if I necessarily agree with this, but what the heck...I felt like stirring the pot.
> 
> Ladies are encouraged to comment as well, please.
> 
> Discuss.


That seems not to be true for me. My wife does everything for me. I am so dependent on her for so many things. I also love her so much.

It seems that we have gravitated into realms of responsibility whereby we each do what the other does not.

This has become more and more true. We have been married for over 50 years now.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 225985

Maybe if men are not expected to do housework get laid when they do. But if they do more than half, no.


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## farsidejunky

I would agree with this if it were correct. It is one of many factors that creates an overall dynamic. 



tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## uhtred

As with most social studies, its difficult to interpret.

"Traditional" couples where women stay at home and do chores while men work more likely include traditional / conservative people who are less likely to divorce even if they are unhappy.

Also if there is a division of labor it is more difficult for the couple to separate because each is more dependent on the other. 

It can also represent a very uneven marriage where the person doing the chores is being taken advantage of or possibly even emotionally abused.


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## EllisRedding

farsidejunky said:


> I would agree with this if it were correct. It is one of many factors that creates an overall dynamic.


Honestly, any guy who thinks that doing more chores at home is going to get him laid more is just going to end up frustrated when he finds out that one does not necessarily correlate to the other.


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## FeministInPink

farsidejunky said:


> The More Chores A Husband Does, The More Likely The Marriage Will End In Divorce
> 
> I don't know if I necessarily agree with this, but what the heck...I felt like stirring the pot.
> 
> Ladies are encouraged to comment as well, please.
> 
> Discuss.


The problem I see with this article is the whole correlation vs causation thing.

Yes, there appears to be a correlation between men doing more housework and divorce, but correlation does not imply or guarantee causation. Within this study, how many of the men doing more housework were "Nice Guys" and were damaging their marriage in other ways that were unreported? And the women that were doing more housework and had correlative happy marriages--there's no clear argument that their marriages are happier because the woman does more housework. Maybe the woman is inclined to do more housework as a result of being happy in her marriage, and vice versa? (I know, in my personal experience, that if I am happier in my relationship, then I am more likely to take care of these little things and pay attention to the housework BECAUSE I want to gift that to my partner; if he's making me miserable and I'm unhappy in my relationship, I'm going to tell him to **** off an make his own damn dinner.)

And, as another TAMer commented, they don't provide info on whether both partners are working, or if there's one breadwinner, etc.

There are way too many variables to establish causation. Correlation, perhaps. Causation, no.


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## Max.HeadRoom

I do not see a job in my home that I would not do. I want things to be fair, and I ask my gal sometimes just to make sure.

Neither of us wants to be wholly dependent on the other.

The only job I will not do is fold the laundry. I caught her re-folding a big batch early on. There no need for a job to be done twice. She is separate it in piles for washing & I keep the loads moving through.


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## ericthesane

Correlation vs causation is tricky... particularly in 'soft sciences'

In this case, the header is misleading in that it does not separate the two.

Households where the woman does more of the housework, all else being equal, are more likely to found in marriages where divorce is less of an option.

and, on a gut reaction level: very few women will get all hot and bothered by a man that fills a dishwasher, if the filling is the only thing happening.

On the other hand: NOT filling the dishwasher will get her cold and bothered.

Come to think of it; disconnect the two entirely. see it in isolation: You should fill the dishwasher cause it wont fill itself.


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## Fozzy

My own experiences make me suspicious of the underlying assumption that people are telling the truth about division of labor. 

I do the cooking, all of the dishes, trash, yard work, and vacuuming. I also pick the kids up from school every day and help them with their homework. My wife does laundry and occasionally cleans a bathroom. Yet if you were to ask her, she does the lions share of the housework. She's not intentionally lying either--she really believes it.


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## farsidejunky

Fozzy said:


> My own experiences make me suspicious of the underlying assumption that people are telling the truth about division of labor.
> 
> I do the cooking, all of the dishes, trash, yard work, and vacuuming. I also pick the kids up from school every day and help them with their homework. My wife does laundry and occasionally cleans a bathroom. Yet if you were to ask her, she does the lions share of the housework. She's not intentionally lying either--she really believes it.


Refresh my memory. Does she work?


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## MEM2020

My observations:

- Basic chores: Cleaning / laundry etc. do not create desire in most women. However, slacking in your overall contribution to the marriage can create enough tension to harm desire. 
- Splitting responsibilities is great - provided you act like a boss and do your stuff. Acting like a subordinate who needs direction (this is not design/build of a rocket nozzle - its kind of basic stuff).

Handy man stuff - this appears to produce an explicitly sexual response in many/most women. This is a certain and immediate path to bed with M2. 

In general, it is honest when a wife says: I am angry at you because you are not overall pulling your weight in the marriage and that is why our sex life sucks. 

And in general it is a total deflection when a wife says (to a husband who IS generally already pulling his weight): I feel so overwhelmed and stressed out by life. If you did more housework I would feel less stressed and we 'might' have more sex. 





EllisRedding said:


> Honestly, any guy who thinks that doing more chores at home is going to get him laid more is just going to end up frustrated when he finds out that one does not necessarily correlate to the other.


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## CharlieParker

I load the dishwasher. I don't know if it's OCD-like or I'm just better at geometry and spatial awareness but my wife just can't load the dishwasher "properly". (Anyone else notice this too?) So I do it, and she doesn't mind. It's not a source of contention, rather more a humours thing. We usually tag team unloading, I do the high stuff, she the lower.


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## Hope1964

FeministInPink said:


> The problem I see with this article is the whole correlation vs causation thing.
> 
> Yes, there appears to be a correlation between men doing more housework and divorce, but correlation does not imply or guarantee causation. Within this study, how many of the men doing more housework were "Nice Guys" and were damaging their marriage in other ways that were unreported? And the women that were doing more housework and had correlative happy marriages--there's no clear argument that their marriages are happier because the woman does more housework. Maybe the woman is inclined to do more housework as a result of being happy in her marriage, and vice versa? (I know, in my personal experience, that if I am happier in my relationship, then I am more likely to take care of these little things and pay attention to the housework BECAUSE I want to gift that to my partner; if he's making me miserable and I'm unhappy in my relationship, I'm going to tell him to **** off an make his own damn dinner.)
> 
> And, as another TAMer commented, they don't provide info on whether both partners are working, or if there's one breadwinner, etc.
> 
> There are way too many variables to establish causation. Correlation, perhaps. Causation, no.


EXACTLY what I was thinking. 

I will add, though, that in my marriage there is sometimes a balancing act. I sometimes feel like telling my husband to 'act like a man' when he does stupid **** like asking me whether the house needs vacuuming or what fridge dish he should put leftovers in or totally misses the fact a sink is plugged. You have EYES, dude, figure it out for yourself. I HATE it when I am supposed to 'assign' chores to do around the house. Why am *I* the one to do that? Why doesn't HE?? I also have it in my head that the womans domain is the kitchen and house, the mans is the yard and repairs, because that's how I grew up, and when he doesn't know how to do simple handyman tasks it sometimes turns me RIGHT off. But overall, we do have a pretty good balance.


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## Fozzy

CharlieParker said:


> I load the dishwasher. I don't know if it's OCD-like or I'm just better at geometry and spatial awareness but my wife just can't load the dishwasher "properly". (Anyone else notice this too?) So I do it, and she doesn't mind. It's not a source of contention, rather more a humours thing. We usually tag team unloading, I do the high stuff, she the lower.


Totally. She overloads it , puts the bowls in face up and the plates face out.


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## CharlieParker




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## Fozzy

farsidejunky said:


> Refresh my memory. Does she work?


She does. She also takes night classes two nights per week. She is NOT lazy. She's just convinced herself that she's alone in the house I guess.


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## farsidejunky

Hope1964 said:


> EXACTLY what I was thinking.
> 
> I will add, though, that in my marriage there is sometimes a balancing act. I sometimes feel like telling my husband to 'act like a man' when he does stupid **** like asking me whether the house needs vacuuming or what fridge dish he should put leftovers in or totally misses the fact a sink is plugged. You have EYES, dude, figure it out for yourself. I HATE it when I am supposed to 'assign' chores to do around the house. Why am *I* the one to do that? Why doesn't HE?? I also have it in my head that the womans domain is the kitchen and house, the mans is the yard and repairs, because that's how I grew up, and when he doesn't know how to do simple handyman tasks it sometimes turns me RIGHT off. But overall, we do have a pretty good balance.


This post has merit. I do want to point something out, however.

Did he ask you:

A. Because he truly does not know.

B. Because you are particular about how you want it done, and criticize when not done to that standard.

I would tell you that for a while, there was a lot of B in my household. Now if she complains about how I do something (obvious exception being if I miss something, etc.), I give her two options:

A. The she does it herself.

B. That she keeps her unnecessarily critical commentary to herself.


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## MrsAldi

When we tried to have a contemporary marriage with both of us working and sharing chores, for some reason there was fighting over silly things and the sexual interest decreased. 

So we went back to traditional and it works out better perhaps because we were brought up in traditional marriages, it seems to work for us, we know our roles. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## jld

This is a more recent study, far:

Couples Who Share Chores May Have Better Sex, And Sex More Often | The Huffington Post

_"A new study from the University of Alberta found that male-female couples had better and more frequent sex when men chipped in with the chores. The findings revealed that when a man felt he was making fair contributions to household chores, the couple had more sex and each partner reported more sexual satisfaction. 

Matt Johnson, a family ecology professor in the university’s department of human ecology at the University of Alberta, set out to debunk a 2012 study that concluded when men helped out with chores traditionally regarded as female housework (duties like cleaning the dishes, cooking and doing laundry), the couples had less sex. Johnson said the findings didn’t fit in with his intuition and background experiences as a couple’s therapist.

Analyzing data from a five-year study of 1,338 German couples, Johnson found his intuition to be correct. Helping out with household work doesn’t detract from a couple’s sex life, it enhances it, the data showed."_


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> This is a more recent study, far:
> 
> Couples Who Share Chores May Have Better Sex, And Sex More Often | The Huffington Post
> 
> _"A new study from the University of Alberta found that male-female couples had better and more frequent sex when men chipped in with the chores. The findings revealed that when a man felt he was making fair contributions to household chores, the couple had more sex and each partner reported more sexual satisfaction.
> 
> Matt Johnson, a family ecology professor in the university’s department of human ecology at the University of Alberta, set out to debunk a 2012 study that concluded when men helped out with chores traditionally regarded as female housework (duties like cleaning the dishes, cooking and doing laundry), the couples had less sex. Johnson said the findings didn’t fit in with his intuition and background experiences as a couple’s therapist.
> 
> Analyzing data from a five-year study of 1,338 German couples, Johnson found his intuition to be correct. Helping out with household work doesn’t detract from a couple’s sex life, it enhances it, the data showed."_


I know there are plenty of contradictory studies for this subject. 

As stated in the OP, I do not necessarily agree with the assertion. It is but one piece of a 100 piece puzzle that equals a marital dynamic.


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## sokillme

I just think this means people who are more traditional are less likely to get divorced. As traditionally divorce had a much greater stigma associated with it.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I know there are plenty of contradictory studies for this subject.
> 
> As stated in the OP, I do not necessarily agree with the assertion. It is but one piece of a 100 piece puzzle that equals a marital dynamic.


I have never understood how a man's doing more housework would lead to less sex. Had never even heard that idea before reading it on TAM.

Anytime Dug helps out, especially in an unanticipated way, I really appreciate it. It makes me feel loved. And when I feel loved . . .


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## CharlieParker

farsidejunky said:


> This post has merit. I do want to point something out, however.
> 
> Did he ask you:
> 
> A. Because he truly does not know.
> 
> B. Because you are particular about how you want it done, and criticize when not done to that standard.
> 
> I would tell you that for a while, there was a lot of B in my household. Now if she complains about how I do something (obvious exception being if I miss something, etc.), I give her two options:
> 
> A. The she does it herself.
> 
> B. *That she keeps her unnecessarily critical commentary to herself.*


It's a two way street and I've been on both sides of it. IME, it's amazing how quickly this can make things become toxic.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I would tell you that for a while, there was a lot of B in my household. Now if she complains about how I do something (obvious exception being if I miss something, etc.), I give her two options:
> 
> A. The she does it herself.
> 
> B. That she keeps her unnecessarily critical commentary to herself.


Letting negative commentary roll off your back (while actually learning to do it the way she wants), and later maybe teasing her a bit about it, might yield more sex, far. 

That is what Dug would do, anyway.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I have never understood how a man's doing more housework would lead to less sex. Had never even heard that idea before reading it on TAM.
> 
> Anytime Dug helps out, especially in an unanticipated way, I really appreciate it. It makes me feel loved. And when I feel loved . . .


There is a difference between more chores equals less sex and more chores does not equal more sex.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Letting negative commentary roll off your back (while actually learning to do it the way she wants), and later maybe teasing her a bit about it, might yield more sex, far.
> 
> That is what Dug would do, anyway.


I do it often as well.

However, some occasions, especially in something physically demanding, = do it yourself or go pound sand.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I do it often as well.
> 
> However, some occasions, especially in something physically demanding, = do it yourself or go pound sand.


Hearing "Go pound sand" would guarantee arctic winds in the bedroom here.

YMMV.


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## farsidejunky

farsidejunky said:


> There is a difference between more chores equals less sex and more chores does not equal more sex.


Or better put.

This is not:

1+1=2

This is more like:

1+A+B+C{(X-Y)/(DE)}=2


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## EllisRedding

farsidejunky said:


> Or better put.
> 
> This is not:
> 
> 1+1=2
> 
> This is more like:
> 
> 1+A+B+C{(X-Y)/(DE)}=2


More like this lol


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> There is a difference between more chores equals less sex and more chores does not equal more sex.


Not sure what this is supposed to mean? Or how it relates to what I said?

Dug and I have always had regular sex. We're attracted to each other.

But if he were sitting on his ass while I were slaving away, I would not feel loved. And if I do not feel loved . . .


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## Bananapeel

Hire a maid to clean the house then take your wife out to dinner while the maid is cleaning. It's a guaranteed panty dropper.


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## jld

Bananapeel said:


> Hire a maid to clean the house then take your wife out to dinner while the maid is cleaning. It's a guaranteed panty dropper.


I like how you think, Bananapeel.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Not sure what this is supposed to mean? Or how it relates to what I said?
> 
> Dug and I have always had regular sex. We're attracted to each other.
> 
> But if he were sitting on his ass while I were slaving away, I would not feel loved. And if I do not feel loved . . .


I agree.

What I was saying is that just because him doing less chores would cause you to have less sex, someone else could derive from that if they do more chores that it will increase sex, when there are so many other parts at play, such as needs met/unmet, time spent together, respect, etc.


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## Bananapeel

.


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## CharlieParker

farsidejunky said:


> someone else could derive from that if they do more chores that it will increase sex


Has this become less of a problem on TAM, or do I filter it out better? It seems to me there were a lot more covert contract type guys on TAM in the past.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I agree.
> 
> What I was saying is that just because him doing less chores would cause you to have less sex, someone else could derive from that if they do more chores that it will increase sex, when there are so many other parts at play, such as needs met/unmet, time spent together, respect, etc.


I agree there are many factors. 

But a man's pulling his weight around the house is just attractive.

I remember back in the late 70s, early 80s, before this was necessarily common (at least in my family), one of my bils was known for helping around the house. He was the first to get up after a meal and start washing dishes, sweeping floors, etc. 

He was well respected among all my sisters for that, far. Never complained about it, either. He knew things needed to be done, and he took the lead in doing them.


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## EllisRedding

farsidejunky said:


> This post has merit. I do want to point something out, however.
> 
> Did he ask you:
> 
> A. Because he truly does not know.
> 
> B. Because you are particular about how you want it done, and criticize when not done to that standard.
> 
> I would tell you that for a while, there was a lot of B in my household. Now if she complains about how I do something (obvious exception being if I miss something, etc.), I give her two options:
> 
> A. The she does it herself.
> 
> B. That she keeps her unnecessarily critical commentary to herself.


One interesting issue I had a while back, my W would get upset b/c I didn't see the house as she saw it. What she considered a mess I didn't consider a mess. The fact was though, she was home most of the day (either on maternity leave or working part time). However, for myself, I am rarely home during the week (usually get home with enough time to eat something quick, spend some time with family, go to bed, rinse & repeat). We were coming from two completely different POVs, neither was right or wrong. If I was home all day, I am sure I would see the house differently (likewise if my W was out of the house all day). The problem, as much as I tried to explain this to her, it was always the "You should just know" response. Even if I made more of a conscious effort, it was not reasonable to suddenly expect me to see things as she sees, and it was a bit off putting that she made no effort to see things from my POV. Eventually this got sorted out and we are on the same page (or close enough lol).


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## 225985

It's a single five year old study done in Norway. Next.


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## Hope1964

farsidejunky said:


> This post has merit. I do want to point something out, however.
> 
> Did he ask you:
> 
> A. Because he truly does not know.
> 
> B. Because you are particular about how you want it done, and criticize when not done to that standard.


He asks me because he thinks I want him to, because he was raised by a *****-whipped silent shell of a father. Actual, he was raised by the *****-whipper - I doubt his father had ANY input into how he was raised. I have explained repeatedly that acting like his father is a huge turn off to me but overcoming his programming is proving quite difficult. I am probably the least critical woman I know - I honestly couldn't give a crap what fridge dish you put the chicken in. He's the kind of guy who, if he'd met up with a woman who decided to take advantage of him, she'd be rich and have ten lovers today and he'd be pregnant barefoot and in the kitchen.


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## Hope1964

blueinbr said:


> It's a single five year old study done in Norway. Next.


Jeez dude, it's just a discussion starter. Chill.


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## 225985

Hope1964 said:


> Jeez dude, it's just a discussion starter. Chill.




I stopped stalking you. Please do me the same.

I give my opinion and you have to start crap. WTF?


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## Hope1964

blueinbr said:


> I stopped stalking you. Please do me the same.
> 
> I give my opinion and you have to start crap. WTF?


Stalking you?? Allrighty then :scratchhead: You're all over the board lately making snide little comments - it's kind of hard to miss. I say this with true caring - perhaps you need a wee break from the board??


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## ConanHub

Seems overly philosophical or complicated.

I don't think there is a direct correlation.

Maybe wimpy men doing chores?

The whole sexual frequency think is kind of weird too.

A few touches and softly spoken words and Mrs. Conan is an open book ready for reading.


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## Andy1001

Bananapeel said:


> Hire a maid to clean the house then take your wife out to dinner while the maid is cleaning. It's a guaranteed panty dropper.


Or take the maid out to dinner.Either way is good.


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## BetrayedDad

Men acting more beta increases divorce.


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## naiveonedave

MEM2020 said:


> My observations:
> 
> - Basic chores: Cleaning / laundry etc. do not create desire in most women. However, slacking in your overall contribution to the marriage can create enough tension to harm desire.
> - Splitting responsibilities is great - provided you act like a boss and do your stuff. Acting like a subordinate who needs direction (this is not design/build of a rocket nozzle - its kind of basic stuff).
> 
> Handy man stuff - this appears to produce an explicitly sexual response in many/most women. This is a certain and immediate path to bed with M2.
> 
> In general, it is honest when a wife says: I am angry at you because you are not overall pulling your weight in the marriage and that is why our sex life sucks.
> 
> And in general it is a total deflection when a wife says (to a husband who IS generally already pulling his weight): I feel so overwhelmed and stressed out by life. If you did more housework I would feel less stressed and we 'might' have more sex.


I agree with this 100%.


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## Blondilocks

Well, the article didn't specify if the subjects were strictly Norwegiian which could have bearing on the relevance to other cultures. However; it did state that a study conducted by Cambridge at roughly the same time and included data from 34 countries found the opposite.

So who knows how relevant the study was in 2012 or is today. One thing is for sure: each couple has to sort this out for themselves. There is no 'right' and no 'wrong' way to go about dividing housework.


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## Blondilocks

naiveonedave said:


> I agree with this 100%.


Yep, MEM knocked it out of the park.


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## MEM2020

I liked your answer a lot Blondi. 

If people watched us at home in different contexts - they might frown a bit. 

In the kitchen - while I'm finishing up dinner, generally I tell M2 to relax and play on her iPad or chat with me - either is fine. But after dinner I mostly clean up. I LIKE doing kitchen stuff. Always have. She has never liked kitchen stuff. 

But sometimes on the weekend she's doing vacuum/dust/cleaning/organizing and I'm slacking during some of that time. In both cases we offer to help the other - and usually get a smiling decline. 

I don't know if this is fair. Not inclined to towards a 'time and motion study' to determine if we are doing equal units of work 

Then we have a weird time of day skew. M2 is far better in the morning and I'm more energetic at night and so we sort of help each other accordingly. 






Blondilocks said:


> Yep, MEM knocked it out of the park.


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## Faithful Wife

I have a boyfriend. He is a single dad of teen kids and his mother lives with him full time. He is the hardest working guy I know. 

Every morning he pops out of bed to throw in a load of laundry, gets his kids up, gets breakfast for everyone, gets mom to the mom sitter, gets kids to school, goes to work, then has to leave in the middle of the day frequently to get someone somewhere or meet an appointment of some kind, gets home, gets kids to sports, gets mom from sitter, gets everyone dinner, gets mom her meds and puts her to bed, does more laundry, does the dishes, cleans up the kitchen, makes sure kids do homework....not to mention making everyone's doctor appointments and other arrangements for school and sports, takes care of his cars and the home he owns, does the shopping for everyone's wardrobe needs and groceries, and everything else you can think of that a household needs. His job is somewhat stressful and he works his ass off to provide for his family. Not to mention the cost of the dozen or so hungry teens that are his kids' friends who come and regularly empty his refrigerator. 

His ex has custody a few days a week, but since his kids' school is closest to his house, they always come "home" after school even if it is her night. She picks them up at his house and so they end up there every day of the school week, meaning they make the same messes and they and their friends eat all the food every day, even on her days.

How busy he is makes my head spin!

But it also makes me admire and respect him. It makes me swoon, too. To see him handle all of this, without complaint and almost always with a great attitude and love for his family.......so sexy.  I feel lucky that he can make time for me. My life is no cake walk (especially right now) but I am never, ever as busy as he is, not even close. But yet when he does make time for me, he has plenty of energy for me and is never, ever whiny about his life. He is engaged with his own life and is very good at it. He needs no one....what I do add to his life is just icing for him, and he appreciates it so much....but as far as "needing" me or anyone, nope. He's in charge of his life and family and he takes care of all of it.

He only has a couple of really great dishes that he makes from scratch...but good lord are they GREAT.....he cooks for me usually when I go visit him and I've never loved eating home cooking as much in my life! Prepared for me by this excellent family man in his own home...and then he cleans up the kitchen!

When he comes to my place, we are safer if I order him food than if I make him anything, so I treat him well in the fact that I lavish him with any expensive restaurant food of his choice and serve it to him with love and appreciation for how much he does for everyone else.

Does his household habits get him laid more?

All I know is that he turns me on greatly, and his attitude and fortitude make him even more attractive to me. The way he loves and takes care of his kids and mother make me feel all warm and fuzzy for him, which do also increase my attraction. Him doing these things has NOTHING to do with me, and yet they make me want to boink him every chance I can get.


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## john117

As the resident expert in soft sciences let me add to Mem's post about correlation vs causation.

To better understand what's going on you need a few added variables such as employment status of both partners.

If the husband works and wife doesn't, IMHO it's a stretch to expect the husband to do a whole lot of housework. If he does, it may come out as weak.

If both work, he has to do a lot of the work. But a working wife may feel she can do better or be less accomodating or flexible or a myriad of other working couple things. She's not tied to the money side so she can walk.

If she works and he doesn't... That is often a recipe for marital issues in itself.

If neither works, well... Tell me how you did it 😁


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## MEM2020

Yes - employment status is key

I only cooked on the weekends when M2 was a sahm. I worked a much more demanding job back then and did almost no housework. 

And John I know that finances can make the marriage more stable - but I could not remain emotionally engaged in a marriage that mainly existed due to the 'mechanics of life'. 

I need to know my partner WANTS to be with ME. My goal was to create financial stability so that the 'mechanics of life' were fairly easy and not a steady source of anxiety. 

98% of what we do isn't expensive - walking - crossword puzzles - racquetball - movies - back scratches - sex. Ok - maybe we are a bit casual about restaurants....

But the couple things that are pricey - season tickets to the theater - a couple vacations a year - don't create stress because they are the exception. 





john117 said:


> As the resident expert in soft sciences let me add to Mem's post about correlation vs causation.
> 
> To better understand what's going on you need a few added variables such as employment status of both partners.
> 
> If the husband works and wife doesn't, IMHO it's a stretch to expect the husband to do a whole lot of housework. If he does, it may come out as weak.
> 
> If both work, he has to do a lot of the work. But a working wife may feel she can do better or be less accomodating or flexible or a myriad of other working couple things. She's not tied to the money side so she can walk.
> 
> If she works and he doesn't... That is often a recipe for marital issues in itself.
> 
> If neither works, well... Tell me how you did it 😁


----------



## Marc878

If you do too much it's a problem. Marriage should be balanced @ 50/50.


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## john117

There's labor and there's labor. Those with a course or two in Work Design understand this well... My wife considers washing the dishes as work similar to building a retaining wall out of C-blocks. Definitely not the same. I just spent 2 hours washing 1000 sq ft of carpet with my pride and joy (Bissell Big Green Machine). She spent 20 minutes heating dinner and washing dishes. 

It's more a "to each according to their abilities" type thing. Not 50/50.


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## Personal

john117 said:


> It's more a "to each according to their abilities" type thing. Not 50/50.


Yep.


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## wild jade

Yesterday, my husband did laundry and cooked dinner. And we had great sex. 

It's probably not causation, but it is correlation.


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## Rowan

I would think it would also depend on how the man feels about doing those chores. There are still plenty of men out there who deeply resent having to do any housework at all, as they consider it all to be the wife's job even if she is also working full time outside the home. They consider any chores they do as "helping" her with her job, so they eventually start to resent "having to help" with something they view as not their responsibility. For these men, the more they're asked to do in regards to chores at home, the more they resent their wife. Resentment makes for a very unhealthy marriage, which would necessarily be more prone to divorce.

Bottom line: every couple needs to figure out what works for the both of them. If their ideas regarding division of labor don't mesh well and one or both aren't willing to completely re-think their position, then there's a real point of incompatibility that may eventually be a deal-breaker for the relationship.


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## CharlieParker

Rowan said:


> They consider any chores they do as "helping" her with her job, so they eventually start to resent "having to help" with something they view as not their responsibility. For these men, the more they're asked to do in regards to chores at home, the more they resent their wife. Resentment makes for a very unhealthy marriage, which would necessarily be more prone to divorce.
> 
> Bottom line: every couple needs to figure out what works for the both of them.


Early on we both worked full time but keeping up with chores was difficult. No resentment yet, but it just wasn't working. We talked and decided she would cut back her hours so she could have more time to handle specific things. I would resent it if after that I wound up having to help with those things. She's not lazy or shirker, I learned if found myself doing laundry or food shopping often I needed to check on her mental state, she was likely depressed. 

We still routinely check in with each other, is the balance OK. But as we are getting older things that she used to physically be able to do are now falling on me. I'll gladly move laundry but fold it, not happening.

ETA: I forgot about this, that was in the days before online banking and paying the bills was a time consuming task. That, and we only had 1 car.


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## Satya

I think that whoever is home more should be doing more of the household chores.
In our house, I work from home about 60% of the time, so I always take small breaks to do dishes, laundry, vacuum, etc.
Odo is more of a mess-maker, but he will spend some time on the weekends clearing away his things, particularly if I ask him to. He always has so many projects going on, I only ask if I think he's done with a particular task and doesn't need his tools out any longer.

The way I see it, a man is going to be doing chores no matter what. If his wife divorces him, he's going to be washing his own underpants and taking out the garbage filled with paper plates. :lol:


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## jld

john117 said:


> It's more a "to each according to their abilities" type thing. Not 50/50.


This is a good attitude to have about marriage in general, john.


----------



## badsanta

Faithful Wife said:


> Does his household habits get him laid more?
> 
> All I know is that he turns me on greatly, and his attitude and fortitude make him even more attractive to me. The way he loves and takes care of his kids and mother make me feel all warm and fuzzy for him, which do also increase my attraction. Him doing these things has NOTHING to do with me, and yet they make me want to boink him every chance I can get.


But @Faithful Wife the dynamics there are different because he is your boyfriend and you see his level of care and attention to needs unrelated to yours. 

Imagine if he were to step into your life, marry you, and begin providing that level of service for everything that has to do with you. At first it would likely be awesome, but over time perhaps he would feel more like a maid or chauffeur. I'm not sure what it is about our society, but more often than not we tend to place ourselves above those that fit the description of "the help." The average wife would likely not respond well to this sexually, and seek out another partner equally as privileged as she perceives herself to be. 

Ideally there has to be a balance of chores so that there is equality in a marriage. This allows both people to feel appreciated, respected, and part of the team.

BUT there is one huge dynamic overlooked here. Women often do the bulk of household chores when it comes to nurturing the kids. The moments that the man steps in and helps with the smallest thing, he demands to be treated like a freaking hero for all the help he just provided. I am guilty of that big time! My wife will do four loads of laundry. Perhaps I'll help shift one load from the wash over to the dryer while she is cooking something, then I demand all the credit for helping out around the house. Now I realize that is not good, but yet I still catch myself doing it. My wife gives me an angry stare, and I just smile back and warn her that she should know that I am just too darn proud of myself and that she should learn to do the same!

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Mr. Nail

I really should not have read this thread but I did pick up some insight. My first reaction was that the title was obviously written out of order and it should have read "Divorced men Do more Chores".


----------



## Blondilocks

@badsanta, your wife needs to copy Happy on Scorpion. She made a gadget for Doc that he can click and hear her voice saying "Attaboy!". Cause she sure wasn't going to be patting his head every time he wanted validation.


----------



## badsanta

Blondilocks said:


> @badsanta, your wife needs to copy Happy on Scorpion. She made a gadget for Doc that he can click and hear her voice saying "Attaboy!". Cause she sure wasn't going to be patting his head every time he wanted validation.


She never gives me any validation for helping around the house. I have to seek that from within myself, and I have to admit that when I do some laundry and I no longer have to go commando that it actually does feel satisfying!


----------



## john117

badsanta said:


> She never gives me any validation for helping around the house. I have to seek that from within myself, and I have to admit that when I do some laundry and I no longer have to go commando that it actually does feel satisfying!


I've done laundry at home for decades... But there's chores and chores. It took us three months to put the lower level in place after having the cat roam for 5 months... Nearly all the work was my doing. 

You do things because it's the right thing to do, not because you want accolades. Same reason I raised my daughters. Mom was too busy saving the whales so I did it. 

As Devo put it, "duty now for the future".


----------



## CuddleBug

farsidejunky said:


> The More Chores A Husband Does, The More Likely The Marriage Will End In Divorce
> 
> I don't know if I necessarily agree with this, but what the heck...I felt like stirring the pot.
> 
> Ladies are encouraged to comment as well, please.
> 
> Discuss.




I do some chores every day before and after work because it must be done and never piles up. Do I want to spend 4 hours doing chores or 30 minutes? I'll take 30 minutes a day.

By me doing more than my share of the inside and outside chores, this has not increased Mrs.CuddleBug's sex drive at all. She is happy and greatful but the sex doesn't increase or improve.

I could do no chores all week, she would freak because we now have to spend 4+ hours one day....

If doing little to no chores or doing most of the chores got Mrs.CuddleBug to want sex most of the time, I would of been all over that long ago.


----------



## Haiku

While doing laundry or dishes I used to sing and hum _Castle on a Cloud_ pretending to be a male Cosette from _Les Miserables_. It didn't work. 😆


----------



## Haiku

CharlieParker said:


> We usually tag team unloading, I do the high stuff, she the lower.


Brief hijack - my daughter thinks she's 5 feet tall, but isn't and I never let her get away with that bold lie. Anyway, if I dropped something I asked her to pick it up because "she's closer." That might have something to do with why I didn't get help in the kitchen.


----------



## Mr The Other

Fozzy said:


> My own experiences make me suspicious of the underlying assumption that people are telling the truth about division of labor.
> 
> I do the cooking, all of the dishes, trash, yard work, and vacuuming. I also pick the kids up from school every day and help them with their homework. My wife does laundry and occasionally cleans a bathroom. Yet if you were to ask her, she does the lions share of the housework. She's not intentionally lying either--she really believes it.


That matches my own experience and it seems to be cultural. In a household where the man normally cooks, the question as to who usually cooks might typically be answered in three ways:
Scandinavian lady: "He normally does the cooking." No need for excuses as no judgement is attached.
American lady: "He likes to cook so he ofter does it, to relax after work." Feels the need to excuse it so that she is not an evil scorpion ***** wife from hell.
British lady: "I always cook, you could not trust him in the kitchen"
I remember reading a story in Denmark about research that showed the Scandinavians were unusual in only slightly exaggerating what they did proportionately. I have also read that while women grossly overestimate the time they spend on housework and work they also slightly overestimate the amount their partner does, men tend to underestimate both what they are their partner does.

And all three will be sincere. I suspect in a house where the man is doing almost all of the housework and working hard at work, it will be reported as splitting the housework about evenly and he might well lose patience. 

I also had the acquaintance of a lady who left her husband who consistently and willfully earnt less money that her (there were other reasons too). She felt shallow for letting it bother her, and he had tried to compensate by doing most of the housework. Considering that he was a poet who wrote about feelings, that was brutally insensitive of him.


----------



## Mr The Other

badsanta said:


> She never gives me any validation for helping around the house. I have to seek that from within myself, and I have to admit that when I do some laundry and I no longer have to go commando that it actually does feel satisfying!


Blimey, if you need validation from your wife, things are going to be difficult.


----------



## Talker67

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly, any guy who thinks that doing more chores at home is going to get him laid more is just going to end up frustrated when he finds out that one does not necessarily correlate to the other.


^THIS^

it sounds like a guy is trying to friend zone his wife into having sex with him. We know THAT does not work when dating, why would it work when married?


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## badsanta

Mr The Other said:


> Blimey, if you need validation from your wife, things are going to be difficult.


In the few instances I actually have felt the need for validation from my wife, I have only found myself in a world of hurt.

...as for when I do a small chore around the house and I feel like a super hero, well that is just because I'm easily astounded and cheerful of my abilities to accomplish even the smallest tasks! My wife accuses me of taking her for granted when this happens... from now on I'll tell her if she wants to feel like a super hero for rinsing the dishes that she needs to start rinsing them like me (a super hero that is!)! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## TX_VW-Bug

The problem I see with doing more chores to get some lovin is that it doesn't work when the wife tells you to do said chore and then comes back and tells you how to do it. In my humble opinion, You get to do one or the other, either ask for it to be done OR explain how you want it done. Otherwise it is a no win situation for the man and will build resentment. 

Just what I have experienced. Your mileage may vary...

-RC


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

My personal pet peeve - men thinking they need to be rewarded for doing THEIR *FAIR* SHARE around the house.

You can't suck and blow at the same time boys - if your wife works outside the home and contributes financially, don't be an assclown and ALSO expect her to do 99% of the chores *inside *the home.

What a ludicrous concept to think men 'deserve' all kinds of sex, recognition, special treatment and a damned marching band to celebrate them just because they did what they SHOULD be doing - sharing in the responsibility of keeping their home clean, their clothes clean, or their meals cooked. You live there TOO, don't you? They're YOUR skid marks in your Joe Boxers, aren't they?

Why in the hell so many men think they should be rewarded with sex or a standing ovation for doing what most women are stuck doing *every day of their lives - *while working a full time job on top of it* -* makes my head explode. I have YET to see a man bring a woman a gift every single day for doing all this crap, yet men are supposed to be rewarded. 

As _IF_.


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## CuddleBug

When Mrs.CuddleBug does her weekly chores on Saturday, like she is now as I type, this does not increase my sex drive for her or vise versa.

When I do my daily chores, always taking the initiative, never being asked, this doesn't increase her sex drive.

Having one spouse do more chores so the other spouse can take it easy and then give them sex as a reward, job well done, is like a man paying a prostitute for sex.

In reality, this does not work.

In fact, if I do most of the chores, Mrs.CuddleBug actually gets mad because there isn't much for her to do.


Chores I do daily because it must be done:

- grocery shop
- dishwasher and counter top
- garbage
- recycling
- darks and whites
- stocking bathroom accessories
- all outside cleanup and maintenance
- bills paid early
- cat taken care of, food, litter, treats, toys, vet


No sex drive increase from Mrs.CuddleBug.......


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## john117

There's chores and chores. I'll be spending several hours connecting and testing my new home receiver to the whole house AV system. I'm sure most wives would not count this as 'chore' but it's something that needs to be done. 

As part of the same pet project I repainted a 16 foot by 9 foot built in media wall with a foam roller brush (fun), then laid lots of shelf lining to all the interior shelves and rearranged / organized hundreds of CD's and DVD's. 

Nah, not a chore either 😁


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## prunus

In my marriage (which has now ended) ex felt ALL household responsibilities were mine because I was a female. I was a SAHM so I had no problem doing the bulk of the household chores, but I quickly realized it was not at all appreciated and just expected of me. I honestly would have had no problem with that (maybe that's wrong) if I was actually loved and appreciated. Instead it was just expected of me without my knowledge and OMG if I forgot to dry the undies all hell broke loose only I had no clue what was going on because he didn't share squat. I know some on here hate the word never, but honestly he never shared feelings, like not even once.


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## Vinnydee

My wife does almost all the chores around the house and other chores too. I used to be out of the country for about 90 days a year and was working 10 hours a day for 6 days a week. My wife never had to work so she did the chores and I busting my butt working on advancing in my career, which I eventually succeeded doing. Now I work at home 12 hours a day so I can have Friday off but am on call 24/7. My wife actually likes running the house. Once I tried to do more than the few things I do and she accused me of trying to steal her job. I think she feels a little guilty for being retired while I am still working. She wants to feel useful. We are married 44 years.


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## DepressedHusband

Why don't they study the lack of defined role in marriage as being a core cause of marriage failure. My wife always hated it when I did her job as it was part of her identity.


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## Andy1001

Mr The Other said:


> That matches my own experience and it seems to be cultural. In a household where the man normally cooks, the question as to who usually cooks might typically be answered in three ways:
> Scandinavian lady: "He normally does the cooking." No need for excuses as no judgement is attached.
> American lady: "He likes to cook so he ofter does it, to relax after work." Feels the need to excuse it so that she is not an evil scorpion ***** wife from hell.
> British lady: "I always cook, you could not trust him in the kitchen"
> I remember reading a story in Denmark about research that showed the Scandinavians were unusual in only slightly exaggerating what they did proportionately. I have also read that while women grossly overestimate the time they spend on housework and work they also slightly overestimate the amount their partner does, men tend to underestimate both what they are their partner does.
> 
> And all three will be sincere. I suspect in a house where the man is doing almost all of the housework and working hard at work, it will be reported as splitting the housework about evenly and he might well lose patience.
> 
> I also had the acquaintance of a lady who left her husband who consistently and willfully earnt less money that her (there were other reasons too). She felt shallow for letting it bother her, and he had tried to compensate by doing most of the housework. Considering that he was a poet who wrote about feelings, that was brutally insensitive of him.


I worked in numerous countries when I was younger and when in the UK I was always amazed by the attitude of wives to their husbands over housework but especially when it came to birthdays and other celebrations.She would expect flowers,a card,a gift and at least a meal for her and some friends and family in a restaurant or maybe a weekend away.He might get a card and a takeout meal and that would be it.I worked with guys who would admit having to bargain with their wives for sex,spending their evenings doing household chores for a non working wife just to get sex.


----------



## Mr The Other

Andy1001 said:


> I worked in numerous countries when I was younger and when in the UK I was always amazed by the attitude of wives to their husbands over housework but especially when it came to birthdays and other celebrations.She would expect flowers,a card,a gift and at least a meal for her and some friends and family in a restaurant or maybe a weekend away.He might get a card and a takeout meal and that would be it.I worked with guys who would admit having to bargain with their wives for sex,spending their evenings doing household chores for a non working wife just to get sex.


I was brought up in the UK. When I was living in Belgium, women would say that their husbands/boyfriends never cooked and when they did it was a big occasion. That was what women said in the UK, so I assumed the situation.

On a second date, we were going to an exhibition and I quickly cooked us some food and tidied up as I went. While I was doing this, I noticed by date seemed amazed and shaken. It was then I saw the difference, that the situation was very different and that in Belgium, women really did do the vast bulk of the housework. The Valentines situation is similar, when I got a present in Denmark, I was a bit bemused - when it happened in Belgium and the USA I realized that the UK was the strange one.

I think it is a legacy of old fashioned sexism, that classes women and children together. I suspect it will last for a generation, for one thing the large number of Polish women coming over changed things.


----------



## Andy1001

Mr The Other said:


> I was brought up in the UK. When I was living in Belgium, women would say that their husbands/boyfriends never cooked and when they did it was a big occasion. That was what women said in the UK, so I assumed the situation.
> 
> On a second date, we were going to an exhibition and I quickly cooked us some food and tidied up as I went. While I was doing this, I noticed by date seemed amazed and shaken. It was then I saw the difference, that the situation was very different and that in Belgium, women really did do the vast bulk of the housework. The Valentines situation is similar, when I got a present in Denmark, I was a bit bemused - when it happened in Belgium and the USA I realized that the UK was the strange one.
> 
> I think it is a legacy of old fashioned sexism, that classes women and children together. I suspect it will last for a generation, for one thing the large number of Polish women coming over changed things.


My brother and his wife live in the UK and even she is bemused at this entitled attitude of some British women.When she organised a birthday party for him some of her neighbors were astonished that she would go to so much trouble.The attitude was get a takeout and a bottle of wine and he should think himself lucky.The same women would throw a tantrum if this happened to them.You see it in the shopping malls too,husband weighed down with kids and shopping bags and the little woman is carrying her handbag and a coffee.They have it all worked out those British girls.lol.


----------



## Mr The Other

Andy1001 said:


> My brother and his wife live in the UK and even she is bemused at this entitled attitude of some British women.When she organised a birthday party for him some of her neighbors were astonished that she would go to so much trouble.The attitude was get a takeout and a bottle of wine and he should think himself lucky.The same women would throw a tantrum if this happened to them.You see it in the shopping malls too,husband weighed down with kids and shopping bags and the little woman is carrying her handbag and a coffee.They have it all worked out those British girls.lol.


It is a gross generalization of course, I know British women are are the main grown ups in their relationships too. I suspect it is just for the one generation when feminism has won some battles, but the indulgence part of sexism remains. I still have part of it, a feeling that a man should be strong enough not to rely emotionally on his wife certainly.

I am not sure how strong it is with the young generation. Times move on and I suspect that the Millennial generation do not feel inherently oppressed to the same extent.


----------



## Faithful Wife

badsanta said:


> But @Faithful Wife the dynamics there are different because he is your boyfriend and you see his level of care and attention to needs unrelated to yours.
> 
> Imagine if he were to step into your life, marry you, and begin providing that level of service for everything that has to do with you. At first it would likely be awesome, but over time perhaps he would feel more like a maid or chauffeur. I'm not sure what it is about our society, but more often than not we tend to place ourselves above those that fit the description of "the help." The average wife would likely not respond well to this sexually, and seek out another partner equally as privileged as she perceives herself to be.


I don't think so. Maybe I've portrayed him as someone who would be my maid or chauffeur if we combined our lives together, but that's not what he is like. He is just always moving. There's so much to do in his household, being a single dad. And if he doesn't keep moving, it will back up on him and immediately overwhelm his life. He just has it all handled, was my point. He take care of biz every day.

He is very kind to me and opens my doors, etc. But he's not a servant and doesn't act like one. He acts like a busy man in charge of his life, who has plenty of energy to take care of all of this and still pursue a woman sexually and romantically. That's what is really attractive about it.

If we merged our lives, we wouldn't do that until such a time that his kids are off to college and neither of our moms live with us anymore. When that day comes for him, whether I'm in his life or not, his life will not be as hectic and he will be able to do more recreational things with his time. He won't still be doing the laundry and cooking for 4 people.

I'm sure he would still take care of his home and possessions, because he has pride in those things (not to excess). But he wouldn't be anyone's servant. I'm very low maintenance in that way, anyway. We get along well in that area. I keep my place tidy and neat but I don't spend that much time at it, as it is just me and therefore easy to keep clean. My place is really cool though, an urban swinging awesome corner apartment unit in a hip, secured building, and his place is also cool, a huge 5 bedroom place in a country setting. We both really enjoy each other's house, how we've decorated, and we both approve of the level of coolness and cleanliness of each's other pad. :smthumbup:

I prefer living apart for now...and I don't really see that changing anytime soon. If we were to move in together though, I don't see any change in how I would sexually respond to him based on his Super Dad current house actions. If anything, we'd be even more into each other because we'd have more time to lay around in bed all day.


----------



## badsanta

...


----------



## EllisRedding

Some people like to have predefined roles in relationships, others do not. You could have two people who have different definitions of chores (look at @john117 post). Everyone is different, every situation is different.

In my situation, my wife is currently a SAHM, so part of her role is maintaining the house / bulk of chore work. It would not be reasonable to expect me to come home from work every night to take care of these things. Now, maybe the difference, and where some people run into issues in a situation similar to mine, this does not mean my W is my maid. I still have a responsibility to clean up after myself, take care of myself (if anything, it does bother my W at times that I am content taking care of myself and don't look for her help, don't expect dinner waiting for me, etc...). On the weekends I do look to help out with the housework as well. 

Really, at the end of the day, communicate communicate communicate so that both people are on the same page as far as expectations.


----------



## DustyDog

This whole division of housework thing is not easy to measure!!!

I used to do the dishes. My wife objected to the presence of a dish drainer, so she disposed of it. So, her method is to wash a dish, rinse a dish, turn off the water, dry it with a towel, then put away. Then pick up next dirty dish. She can have her method if she wishes...but I don't wish to spend my time that way. I also used to do the dishes as soon as I dirtied them. If I walk up to a sink and it's got dishes from the last three meals she ate - gosh, that seems like a lot to do all at once. So, I've been prohibited from doing this particular job in the manner that I deem is efficient, for me. Now that I work from home, I do dishes - mine, the moment they're dirty and then they're put away.

In 17 years, I've never seen her clean a window, wash a floor, dust a ceiling, clean the high horizontal surfaces (door frames, refrigerator and cabinet tops...). Nor does she clean "cleaning equipment". Vacuum cleaners require periodic disassembly (remove bag, belts, other consumer-accessible bits and use towel/water to get out the crud, or the machine won't last long.). If your plumbing fixtures get mineral deposits on them, so does your washing machine, so it needs cleaning. Nope, she doesn't do that - but complains when the washing machine looks icky or the vacuum cleaner starts spraying dust out the bag, torn by grit.

I never had a cleaning schedule when single...but once a week, I'd do a survey of my place and visible problems were dealt with. I prefer an uncluttered clean looking place, but fall short of hospital sanitary. So...I basically do the cleaning I'd do if it were just me, since I appear to be more picky than her anyway.

On the interesting/charming/honorable side, my wife changes the oil in the cars. Why? To honor her dad. He died when she was young, and her favorite activity was helping him work on the cars.



There are things she does for which I'm grateful. I do not like shopping - of any kind. Even if it's for my own hobbies, I dislike the act of selecting products, ordering them, paying for them, entering the expense info in the database for tax purposes...etc. I still have to do that where my business is concerned. But she has totally freed me from grocery shopping (thank someone above!). I'm also excused from cooking, my reasoning being that we don't cook. She has an obsession with "eating simply", which means open a can of veggies, pour it out and microwave it. I used to be a good cook, but there's nothing I might cook that would suit her definition of "food". Hmmm...I did like cooking...and don't do it any more. I should throw dinner parties and cook for guests...she'll just watch, I suspect.




Now, a previous significant other - had been mentally abused by her mom as a child, that there MUST be weekly cleanings and it was a LONG list. And she loved the use of chemicals. Made my athsma worse and I was REQUIRED to participate. When I think of the thick layers of furniture wax built up on that walnut coffee table she cherished, and how much more the wood grain would have stood out if she actually cleaned it instead of encased it...


----------



## jb02157

FeministInPink said:


> The problem I see with this article is the whole correlation vs causation thing.
> 
> Yes, there appears to be a correlation between men doing more housework and divorce, but correlation does not imply or guarantee causation. Within this study, how many of the men doing more housework were "Nice Guys" and were damaging their marriage in other ways that were unreported? And the women that were doing more housework and had correlative happy marriages--there's no clear argument that their marriages are happier because the woman does more housework. Maybe the woman is inclined to do more housework as a result of being happy in her marriage, and vice versa? (I know, in my personal experience, that if I am happier in my relationship, then I am more likely to take care of these little things and pay attention to the housework BECAUSE I want to gift that to my partner; if he's making me miserable and I'm unhappy in my relationship, I'm going to tell him to **** off an make his own damn dinner.)
> 
> And, as another TAMer commented, they don't provide info on whether both partners are working, or if there's one breadwinner, etc.
> 
> There are way too many variables to establish causation. Correlation, perhaps. Causation, no.


Too many non-controlled variables. The data can be read to mean virtually anything.


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## musicftw07

If you had talked to me a few years ago after my divorce with my XWW I would have soundly agreed with the premise that men doing more chores increases divorce. Not so much anymore. There's a lot more nuance to life.

Me doing more chores may have been a contributing factor (among many) in my XWW losing respect for me because I didn't have any expectations of her to chip in. I was a doormat and allowed her to set the rules. So it really wasn't the "chores", per se; it was my driving motive for taking more of them on in the first place. She knew she wasn't contributing around the house, and she knew she totally controlled our sex life. All she had to do was dangle the carrot of sex in front of me, and I was more than happy to do all the cooking, dishes, picking up, etc. We did laundry together, and we did grocery shopping together. But I had quite a few daily chores that were "mine", whereas she had none. Because I was hoping to get laid.  "If I do this, will you have sex with me?"

Kinda hard to respect someone who allows that dynamic to exist. And it was a valuable learning opportunity, in that it's okay for me to have expectations that my partner be a contributing element to the relationship. I've dumped women post-divorce who were lacking in that area, and it was a smart move.

I've found that a relationship where both parties expect the other to contribute in various ways creates a far healthier dynamic. Accountability is a good thing.


----------



## samyeagar

badsanta said:


> *In the few instances I actually have felt the need for validation from my wife, I have only found myself in a world of hurt.*
> 
> ...as for when I do a small chore around the house and I feel like a super hero, well that is just because I'm easily astounded and cheerful of my abilities to accomplish even the smallest tasks! My wife accuses me of taking her for granted when this happens... from now on I'll tell her if she wants to feel like a super hero for rinsing the dishes that she needs to start rinsing them like me (a super hero that is!)!
> 
> Cheers,
> Badsanta


That's the funny thing about validation. When it is freely given it is called showing appreciation.

With things that are objective, such as cooking, cleaning, working, where there are real, measurable, observable, tangible results, I have never needed anyone else validation. Things that are subjective and dependent on someone else point of view on the other hand, that is where it can get tricky, and ultimately the only way to reliably have the desired outcome is to ensure that one doesn't care about the outcome at all...

It took me a while to get to the point of not caring about, and not needing any validation from my wife regarding my attractiveness to her. Indifference is certainly a better state for me...no so sure how great it is for the marriage though.


----------



## RClawson

Fozzy said:


> My own experiences make me suspicious of the underlying assumption that people are telling the truth about division of labor.
> 
> I do the cooking, all of the dishes, trash, yard work, and vacuuming. I also pick the kids up from school every day and help them with their homework. My wife does laundry and occasionally cleans a bathroom. Yet if you were to ask her, she does the lions share of the housework. She's not intentionally lying either--she really believes it.


Is it possible we live in a parallel universe where my wife is also married to you?


----------



## MrsHolland

One of the reasons I completely adore MrH is because he does so much around the house and garden. He just does it, no need to have any discussion about it, we work well together to run a very large and busy household. We tend to do a fair bit together including cooking and gardening. Even after a long day at work he comes home and just gets stuff done, washing, cleaning or whatever. He will often ask me if there are any jobs that I want him to do and we have no problem asking each other for help doing chores.

I could never respect a lazy man or man child, he had an ex that did very little around the house and did not work outside the house (severe MH issues) so he often tells me with words and actions how much he appreciates the way we work together as a team.

Him doing a lot around the house (as well as working full time plus) is not ever likely to lead to divorce.


----------



## Mr The Other

MrsHolland said:


> One of the reasons I completely adore MrH is because he does so much around the house and garden. He just does it, no need to have any discussion about it, we work well together to run a very large and busy household. We tend to do a fair bit together including cooking and gardening. Even after a long day at work he comes home and just gets stuff done, washing, cleaning or whatever. He will often ask me if there are any jobs that I want him to do and we have no problem asking each other for help doing chores.
> 
> I could never respect a lazy man or man child, he had an ex that did very little around the house and did not work outside the house (severe MH issues) so he often tells me with words and actions how much he appreciates the way we work together as a team.
> 
> Him doing a lot around the house (as well as working full time plus) is not ever likely to lead to divorce.


That is wonderful to hear. What is unusual in that is that you are aware and non-judgemental about it. I think hat is rarer than you imagine. I suspect his ex-wife might well have reported that she did everything (clearly, I do not know that).

Clearly, a man should pull his weight. He should not do it for validation or appreciation from his wife (wimpy), nor expect her to realize it (it is great if she can, without thinking it makes her a bad person).


----------



## EllisRedding

Mr The Other said:


> Clearly, a man should pull his weight. He should not do it for validation or appreciation from his wife (wimpy), nor expect her to realize it (it is great if she can, without thinking it makes her a bad person).


I think part of what happens, you have those who believe in the whole "Happy Wife Happy Life" nonsense. So for a guy who follows, he is led to believe that every action he does to make his W happy should be met with validation/appreciation.sex, etc... The W who believes this as well takes the approach that she takes priority in the relationship, and her Hs needs/happiness is nothing more then a byproduct.

I am sure there are couples who follow along with HWHL and are happy with. In general, IMO, it is a horrible concept for anyone to follow, especially since it prioritizes the happiness of one person in the relationship over the other.


----------



## john117

MrsHolland said:


> Him doing a lot around the house (as well as working full time plus) is not ever likely to lead to divorce.


If that's the case I should have me a harem...

I can do DIY esp landscaping, light construction, trim carpentry, painting, and low voltage stuff better than many professional crews, esp painting. 

I do all laundry, some cooking, and heavy duty house cleaning like carpet washing. 

It's all about perception, not results, with some people.


----------



## FeministInPink

EllisRedding said:


> I think part of what happens, you have those who believe in the whole "Happy Wife Happy Life" nonsense. So for a guy who follows, he is led to believe that every action he does to make his W happy should be met with validation/appreciation.sex, etc... The W who believes this as well takes the approach that she takes priority in the relationship, and her Hs needs/happiness is nothing more then a byproduct.
> 
> I am sure there are couples who follow along with HWHL and are happy with. In general, IMO, it is a horrible concept for anyone to follow, especially since it prioritizes the happiness of one person in the relationship over the other.


I think the whole "Happy Wife, Happy Life" is misunderstood by a great number of men, and is therefore executed poorly. If understood and applied correctly, then I think it's a good adage to apply in a relationship.

Happy Wife doesn't mean giving into her every whim and coddling her and doing all the housework like a houseboy. I think a Happy Wife will come from the things we talk about here frequently--making sure that her needs are being met (and let's be honest, a lot of women are not good about communicating those, so this can be a challenge), but also by the husband taking a lead in the relationship (a la MMSL Primer and NMMNG) and establishing boundaries for a healthy relationship. If a wife is happy in these ways, then it comes back to the husband in turn.

That's what I think it means, anyway.


----------



## EllisRedding

FeministInPink said:


> I think the whole "Happy Wife, Happy Life" is misunderstood by a great number of men, and is therefore executed poorly. If understood and applied correctly, then I think it's a good adage to apply in a relationship.
> 
> Happy Wife doesn't mean giving into her every whim and coddling her and doing all the housework like a houseboy. I think a Happy Wife will come from the things we talk about here frequently--making sure that her needs are being met (*and let's be honest, a lot of women are not good about communicating those, so this can be a challenge*), but also by the husband taking a lead in the relationship (a la MMSL Primer and NMMNG) and establishing boundaries for a healthy relationship. If a wife is happy in these ways, then it comes back to the husband in turn.
> 
> That's what I think it means, anyway.


I do agree with your take on what it should mean. It is called "Happy Wife Happy Life". There is no equivalent "Happy Husband Happy Life". The problem, at face value, you can see how this elicits a certain response. The flipside of HWHL is Unhappy Wife, Prepare for War > It implies (once again, at face value) that the Wife's happiness is priority. It promotes (at face value) an unbalanced relationship where her needs (whatever they may be) must be met first before she is hopefully willing to reciprocate. Anyone who follows this literally is in for a world of hurt lol.

Honestly, the actual HWHL phrase should just die b/c people (both men and women) will take this saying very literally, creating an unbalanced dynamic in their relationship that will probably lead to frustration/resentment.

Bonus points for the bolded FIP, this was along the lines of a thread I had started a week ago about this very topic :smthumbup:


----------



## FeministInPink

EllisRedding said:


> I do agree with your take on what it should mean. It is called "Happy Wife Happy Life". There is no equivalent "Happy Husband Happy Life". The problem, at face value, you can see how this elicits a certain response. The flipside of HWHL is Unhappy Wife, Prepare for War > It implies (once again, at face value) that the Wife's happiness is priority. It promotes (at face value) an unbalanced relationship where her needs (whatever they may be) must be met first before she is hopefully willing to reciprocate. Anyone who follows this literally is in for a world of hurt lol.
> 
> Honestly, the actual HWHL phrase should just die b/c people (both men and women) will take this saying very literally, creating an unbalanced dynamic in their relationship that will probably lead to frustration/resentment.
> 
> Bonus points for the bolded FIP, this was along the lines of a thread I had started a week ago about this very topic :smthumbup:


Thanks! :smthumbup: 

I agree with you, it absolutely should be reciprocal that both partners' needs be a priority. And in a healthy relationship--with a woman who has a high, healthy EQ--she WILL reciprocate. I don't think there's any need to hope that she will, because she just will. So adherence to HWHL would be successful, by that logic. There are just too many people who are screwed up for it to work consistently


----------



## Holdingontoit

I think that statement was more true in prior generations within a more patriarchal society. Within that system, I can see how being a "benevolent dictator" would get a guy more appreciation from his wife than being a selfish tyrant. These days, when women quite properly expect to be treated as equals, I don't see why catering to her needs should take any priority. Both spouse's should be working to satisfy both of their respective needs.


----------



## EllisRedding

Holdingontoit said:


> I think that statement was more true in prior generations within a more patriarchal society. Within that system, I can see how being a "benevolent dictator" would get a guy more appreciation from his wife than being a selfish tyrant. *These days, when women quite properly expect to be treated as equals, I don't see why catering to her needs should take any priority. * Both spouse's should be working to satisfy both of their respective needs.


I think the bold does fit in well with part of this topic where the discussion was around defined roles. With more women being part of the workforce full time, the more "traditional" role of the husband/wife has definitely shifted. There is a thread going on here somewhere about HNHNs. I was just reading a brief summary on and came across this, which in many respects you can see goes against what you could consider the current roles (just highlighting a few):

*The Irresistible Man*



> He meets her need for financial support by firmly shouldering the responsibility to house, feed and clothe his family. If his income is insufficient to support his wife adequately (certain callings as ministry, or social service), he does not feel sorry for himself; instead, he looks for concrete ways to increase his earnings by upgrading his skills or he sits down with his wife to determine how to make better use of what income they have, how to lower their standard of living if necessary in order to raise their marriage to a safer and more fulfilling level.
> 
> He meets her need for family commitment by putting his family first. He commits his time and energy to the moral and intellectual development of the children. For example, he reads to them, he engages in sports with them and takes them camping or on other outings. He does not play the fool's game of working long hours, trying to get ahead, while his children and spouse languish in neglect; and he seeks to help with the home


*The Irresistible Woman*



> She meets his need for her attractiveness. She keeps herself physically attractive and she wears her hair, makeup and clothes in a way that her husband finds attractive and tasteful. Her husband is pleased and proud of her in public and in private.
> 
> She meets his need for domestic support by creating a home that offers him an atmosphere of peace and quiet. She manages the home and care of the children. This gives him the opportunity to spend evenings and weekends with her and their children in educational and recreational activity


So what happens when what you consider an "irresistible" woman/male (possibly based on the items above) does not actually match with what your current role is (as the items listed above are more based on the dynamic of breadwinner H and SAHMish)? How easily can people adjust their thinking (for example, if you find an irresistible man to be one who provides financial support, but in your marriage you are an equal or even the breadwinner, etc...)


----------



## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> If that's the case I should have me a harem...
> 
> I can do DIY esp landscaping, light construction, trim carpentry, painting, and low voltage stuff better than many professional crews, esp painting.
> 
> I do all laundry, some cooking, and heavy duty house cleaning like carpet washing.
> 
> It's all about perception, not results, with some people.


Like all relationships it is about two people and how they fit together. MrH's 1st wife has it tough in many regards such as health so I have a degree of acceptance/understanding for her. But yeah she made his life hard, he HAD to do a lot of chores as she didn't do them. He had a lot of resentment for her in this regard, a lot of self deprivation also bc he put up with it.

Our life is quite the opposite, we enjoy working together and doing things for each other and our family.


----------



## MEM2020

The dynamic below is exactly what drives the related divorce statistics. 




musicftw07 said:


> If you had talked to me a few years ago after my divorce with my XWW I would have soundly agreed with the premise that men doing more chores increases divorce. Not so much anymore. There's a lot more nuance to life.
> 
> Me doing more chores may have been a contributing factor (among many) in my XWW losing respect for me because I didn't have any expectations of her to chip in. I was a doormat and allowed her to set the rules. So it really wasn't the "chores", per se; it was my driving motive for taking more of them on in the first place. She knew she wasn't contributing around the house, and she knew she totally controlled our sex life. All she had to do was dangle the carrot of sex in front of me, and I was more than happy to do all the cooking, dishes, picking up, etc. We did laundry together, and we did grocery shopping together. But I had quite a few daily chores that were "mine", whereas she had none. Because I was hoping to get laid.  "If I do this, will you have sex with me?"
> 
> Kinda hard to respect someone who allows that dynamic to exist. And it was a valuable learning opportunity, in that it's okay for me to have expectations that my partner be a contributing element to the relationship. I've dumped women post-divorce who were lacking in that area, and it was a smart move.
> 
> I've found that a relationship where both parties expect the other to contribute in various ways creates a far healthier dynamic. Accountability is a good thing.


----------



## MEM2020

This is all 'nice to have' - thing is I can outsource it. All of it. 

Can't outsource ANY of the stuff makes M2 an exceptional companion:
- Playfulness 
- Sense of humor
- Conversational skills

Being good at the 'mechanics' of life is great - but - as your familial income rises - it becomes less critical. And hey - if it makes your partner feel loved - great. If not, best you don't expect much halo effect from it. 




john117 said:


> If that's the case I should have me a harem...
> 
> I can do DIY esp landscaping, light construction, trim carpentry, painting, and low voltage stuff better than many professional crews, esp painting.
> 
> I do all laundry, some cooking, and heavy duty house cleaning like carpet washing.
> 
> It's all about perception, not results, with some people.


----------



## Mr The Other

MEM2020 said:


> The dynamic below is exactly what drives the related divorce statistics.


I think what drives divorce is that marriage needs two partners who are both willing to try and make it work, have a reasonable self-awareness, try to communicate and both value the other beyond convenience in their own right to some extent. It is not common for both partners to fulfill those needs.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> So what happens when what you consider an "irresistible" woman/male (possibly based on the items above) does not actually match with what your current role is (as the items listed above are more based on the dynamic of breadwinner H and SAHMish)? How easily can people adjust their thinking (for example, if you find an irresistible man to be one who provides financial support, but in your marriage you are an equal or even the breadwinner, etc...)


Probably ongoing frustration.


----------



## jld

Mr The Other said:


> I think what drives divorce is that marriage needs two partners who are both willing to try and make it work, have a reasonable self-awareness, try to communicate and both value the other beyond convenience in their own right to some extent. It is not common for both partners to fulfill those needs.


I think what drives divorce is the lack of an inspiring, committed leader in the marriage.


----------



## jld

MEM2020 said:


> This is all 'nice to have' - thing is I can outsource it. All of it.
> 
> Can't outsource ANY of the stuff makes M2 an exceptional companion:
> - Playfulness
> - Sense of humor
> - Conversational skills
> 
> Being good at the 'mechanics' of life is great - but - as your familial income rises - it becomes less critical. And hey - if it makes your partner feel loved - great. If not, best you don't expect much halo effect from it.


The emotional connection is the most important element of modern marriage.


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> I think part of what happens, you have those who believe in the whole "Happy Wife Happy Life" nonsense. So for a guy who follows, he is led to believe that every action he does to make his W happy should be met with validation/appreciation.sex, etc... The W who believes this as well takes the approach that she takes priority in the relationship, and her Hs needs/happiness is nothing more then a byproduct.
> 
> I am sure there are couples who follow along with HWHL and are happy with. In general, IMO, it is a horrible concept for anyone to follow, especially since it prioritizes the happiness of one person in the relationship over the other.


If the man is strong in his identity and emotionally independent, I think HWHL can provide great balance in a marriage.

If the man is reactive and emotionally dependent on the woman, as in the Nice Guy syndrome, then striving for HWHL can lead to resentment and even vindictiveness.


----------



## jld

FeministInPink said:


> *I think the whole "Happy Wife, Happy Life" is misunderstood by a great number of men, and is therefore executed poorly. If understood and applied correctly, then I think it's a good adage to apply in a relationship.*
> 
> Happy Wife doesn't mean giving into her every whim and coddling her and doing all the housework like a houseboy. I think a Happy Wife will come from the things we talk about here frequently--making sure that her needs are being met (and let's be honest, a lot of women are not good about communicating those, so this can be a challenge), but also by the husband taking a lead in the relationship (a la MMSL Primer and NMMNG) and establishing boundaries for a healthy relationship. * If a wife is happy in these ways, then it comes back to the husband in turn.*
> 
> That's what I think it means, anyway.


Well said, FIP.

As the Bible suggests, a man who is willing to lay down his life for his wife is likely to inspire her respect and devotion.


----------



## jld

Holdingontoit said:


> These days, when women quite properly expect to be treated as equals, I don't see why catering to her needs should take any priority. Both spouse's should be working to satisfy both of their respective needs.


I would not recommend this to my daughter. If the man will not lead, particularly in terms of self sacrifice, she would be wise to pass on him.

I do not trust men who demand "equality."


----------



## Mr The Other

jld said:


> I think what drives divorce is the lack of an inspiring, committed leader in the marriage.


I have more respect for this than I used to. Not because I thought it unimportant before, but I thought it was what man typically provided. 

I recently returned to Europe from the USA. Since then, I have had one lady with whom I was very close tell me that if I offered she would marry me immediately (though a attractive lady in her early twenties marrying a forty year old man is probably a bad idea). A lady I was seeing, but had been rather flakey try to move to Europe to be with me and two letters from women I dated saying I changed their lives. The point is, I provided leadership and was sensitive in the better way (to their feelings rather than my own about theirs). This does suggest this trait is rarer than I had assumed (I am not getting carried away - I am healthy, good looking and employed, if that changed so would everything else).

I would still hope that more men are willing to lay down their lies for their wives. I think they have to play a role of being an active wife as much as they are reasonably able.

I think you make a similar mistake. You almost seem dismissive of what you bring to the marriage. The point is you are capable of appreciating what your husband brings and you respect it. You also show that through your actions. Just as I assumed that men pretty much always provide emotional leadership, you tend to assume what you do is commonplace - I am not sure it is. This does not mean that women of girls should just be abandoned, just that they also choose to make a significant contribution. Of course, this is just my impression.


----------



## john117

MEM2020 said:


> This is all 'nice to have' - thing is I can outsource it. All of it.
> 
> Can't outsource ANY of the stuff makes M2 an exceptional companion:
> - Playfulness
> - Sense of humor
> - Conversational skills
> 
> Being good at the 'mechanics' of life is great - but - as your familial income rises - it becomes less critical. And hey - if it makes your partner feel loved - great. If not, best you don't expect much halo effect from it.



I have a warehouse full of those as well - few people make it to our level of income or education or professional accomplishments by being full automatons...


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Well said, FIP.
> 
> As the Bible suggests, a man who is willing to lay down his life for his wife is likely to inspire her respect and devotion.


I'll have to wait for the next zombie apocalypse to prove my worth to my wife I guess 😁


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I have a warehouse full of those as well - few people make it to our level of income or education or professional accomplishments by being full automatons...


You refuse to connect emotionally with her, john. The most important part of modern marriage, and you stubbornly refuse to do it.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> You refuse to connect emotionally with her, john. The most important part of modern marriage, and you stubbornly refuse to do it.


Kinda hard to emotionally connect to a zombie, I'm afraid. 

Let's see. This weekend we begin our romantic getaway to Washington DC for a few days. Literally first vacation without children in 25 years. Adjust expectations to 0.05% and we'll be all set


----------



## jld

Mr The Other said:


> I have more respect for this than I used to. Not because I thought it unimportant before, but I thought it was what man typically provided.
> 
> I recently returned to Europe from the USA. Since then, I have had one lady with whom I was very close tell me that if I offered she would marry me immediately (though a attractive lady in her early twenties marrying a forty year old man is probably a bad idea). A lady I was seeing, but had been rather flakey try to move to Europe to be with me and two letters from women I dated saying I changed their lives. The point is, I provided leadership and was sensitive in the better way (to their feelings rather than my own about theirs). This does suggest this trait is rarer than I had assumed (I am not getting carried away - I am healthy, good looking and employed, if that changed so would everything else).


European men might be better husbands than American men. Not sure if this is true, but it does make me wonder.

Glad to see you understand the importance of the right kind of sensitivity. 

Disappointed you seem to have broken some hearts, though. 



> I would still hope that more men are willing to lay down their lies for their wives. I think they have to play a role of being an active wife as much as they are reasonably able.
> 
> I think you make a similar mistake. You almost seem dismissive of what you bring to the marriage. The point is you are capable of appreciating what your husband brings and you respect it. You also show that through your actions. Just as I assumed that men pretty much always provide emotional leadership, you tend to assume what you do is commonplace - I am not sure it is. This does not mean that women of girls should just be abandoned, just that they also choose to make a significant contribution. Of course, this is just my impression.


This is flattering, MTO, but I do not think I bring more than other wives I know do. I could easily be persuaded I bring less.

My husband is an undeserved gift in my life. I am not sure why he loves me so much, but I am very grateful he does.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Kinda hard to emotionally connect to a zombie, I'm afraid.
> 
> Let's see. This weekend we begin our romantic getaway to Washington DC for a few days. Literally first vacation without children in 25 years. Adjust expectations to 0.05% and we'll be all set


You could humble yourself and acknowledge her pain.


----------



## BetrayedDad

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Why in the hell so many men think they should be rewarded with sex or a standing ovation for doing what most women are stuck doing *every day of their lives - *while working a full time job on top of it* -* makes my head explode. I have YET to see a man bring a woman a gift every single day for doing all this crap, yet men are supposed to be rewarded.
> 
> As _IF_.


So apparently for you, sex with your husband is not something you WANT to do but rather some type of reward for him exclusively?!?

That the equivalent for you is not reciprocal sex but instead him giving you an "object" like a gift because that's apparently more valuable.

When sex is a chore for your spouse gents, file for DIVORCE. I'd rather have an enthusiastic right hand than a dead star fish in the bedroom.


----------



## Mr The Other

jld said:


> You refuse to connect emotionally with her, john. The most important part of modern marriage, and you stubbornly refuse to do it.


With respect, jld, you appear to have abandonment issues. In every scenario, you picture a little girl looking for firm but loving guidance. You do not tackle these as you see it as reality. But accept what you see as stubbornness in others can be seen as stubbornness in yourself.


----------



## Mr The Other

jld said:


> European men might be better husbands than American men. Not sure if this is true, but it does make me wonder.
> 
> Glad to see you understand the importance of the right kind of sensitivity.
> 
> Disappointed you seem to have broken some hearts, though.


The patriotic part of me would like to agree, but I am not sure.

Thank you.

And, yes, it is a shame. Fresh out of a divorce, I was not ready to settle down, but that is still a deep shame.



jld said:


> This is flattering, MTO, but I do not think I bring more than other wives I know do. I could easily be persuaded I bring less.
> 
> My husband is an undeserved gift in my life. I am not sure why he loves me so much, but I am very grateful he does.


Indeed, not that I agree as such, but I understand exactly where you are coming from. I do think you bring deep empathy to the situations you read. You immediately feel a sense of abandonment and disconnection. I suspect this does sometimes mean you do not see all sides.


----------



## jld

Mr The Other said:


> With respect, jld, you appear to have abandonment issues. In every scenario, you picture a little girl looking for firm but loving guidance. You do not tackle these as you see it as reality. But accept what you see as stubbornness in others can be seen as stubbornness in yourself.


I certainly have abandonment issues. I also feel powerless in many ways, including in my marriage.

I just called Dug to read him your comment about stubbornness. He said he does not see me as stubborn. 

He said I have strong opinions and I am going to defend them. He said I am not simply going to bow down to another when I believe in my position. 

I absolutely believe in what I have told you, john. You could right this marriage. You are smart enough and I believe strong enough. But you would have to humble yourself and acknowledge your wife's pain first.


----------



## jld

Mr The Other said:


> The patriotic part of me would like to agree, but I am not sure.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> And, yes, *it is a shame. *Fresh out of a divorce, I was not ready to settle down, but *that is still a deep shame*.


Thank you for acknowledging this.



> Indeed, not that I agree as such, but I understand exactly where you are coming from. I do think you bring deep empathy to the situations you read. You immediately feel a sense of abandonment and disconnection. I suspect this does sometimes mean you do not see all sides.


That might be true. For sure, I do not weigh all sides equally. I do not think they are equal.


----------



## Holdingontoit

jld said:


> I do not trust men who demand "equality."


Not the men, the women. As my mother said "I will never accept equality because I have no intention of stepping down off my pedestal."


----------



## jld

Holdingontoit said:


> Not the men, the women. As my mother said "I will never accept equality because I have no intention of stepping down off my pedestal."


Smart woman, your mother.


----------



## Holdingontoit

See, but my wife didn't like being put on a pedestal. Until recently. When she was healthy she thought it was insulting and a sign of weakness that I wanted to put her there. She felt she had huge value and deserved to be treated well so she gave me no credit for doing what she felt she was entitled to. Now after the cancer and recovery she sees herself as having less value. At this point she feels I treat her better than she deserves. She appreciates that I did not trade her in for a car that hadn't had so much body work. I think she was wrong both times. But fighting with her over it is pointless. So I just enjoy being more appreciated.


----------



## john117

Ah, jld..

This is one of those "you oughta be a fly on the wall" moments.

This weekend was a classic example. We're going to DC to renew wife's passport. The picture requirements are such that a Walmart type passport picture will not do. We use Sears or JCPenney photo studio instead. Alas, they either closed down or don't do passport pictures​ any more. Needless to say she goes into full scale emotional convulsions while I quickly find a local pro photographer who's open on Sundays​ and does this kind of work. $30 later problem addressed.

Was this appreciated? Expletive deleted not. There simply is no place in some people's​ mind for "appreciation". 

You seem to have a very narrow set of behavior expectations based on what you consider typical and atypical behavior. In reality, the bounds of atypical behavior are leagues apart.


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## jld

Holdingontoit said:


> See, but my wife didn't like being put on a pedestal. Until recently. *When she was healthy she thought it was insulting and a sign of weakness that I wanted to put her there. She felt she had huge value and deserved to be treated well so she gave me no credit for doing what she felt she was entitled to.* Now after the cancer and recovery she sees herself as having less value. At this point she feels I treat her better than she deserves. She appreciates that I did not trade her in for a car that hadn't had so much body work. I think she was wrong both times. But fighting with her over it is pointless. So I just enjoy being more appreciated.


The bolded sounds like pride. Ugly in both sexes.


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## jld

john117 said:


> Ah, jld..
> 
> This is one of those "you oughta be a fly on the wall" moments.
> 
> This weekend was a classic example. We're going to DC to renew wife's passport. The picture requirements are such that a Walmart type passport picture will not do. We use Sears or JCPenney photo studio instead. Alas, they either closed down or don't do passport pictures​ any more. Needless to say she goes into full scale emotional convulsions while I quickly find a local pro photographer who's open on Sundays​ and does this kind of work. $30 later problem addressed.
> 
> Was this appreciated? Expletive deleted not. There simply is no place in some people's​ mind for "appreciation".
> 
> You seem to have a very narrow set of behavior expectations based on what you consider typical and atypical behavior. In reality, the bounds of atypical behavior are leagues apart.


What did you say or do to reassure her emotionally?

This is for an American passport, correct? We always go to Walgreen's for that.


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## john117

No, it's for her Frigidistan passport.

Nothing I said alleviated her concerns, in fact, I got blamed because the first set of pictures we got at another place with her "guidance" did not match the requirements. Then she went postal, and went thru her usual meltdown routine while I was busy calling places.

As I said, you should have been there 😁


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## FeministInPink

john117 said:


> Ah, jld..
> 
> This is one of those "you oughta be a fly on the wall" moments.
> 
> This weekend was a classic example. We're going to DC to renew wife's passport. The picture requirements are such that a Walmart type passport picture will not do. We use Sears or JCPenney photo studio instead. Alas, they either closed down or don't do passport pictures​ any more. Needless to say she goes into full scale emotional convulsions while I quickly find a local pro photographer who's open on Sundays​ and does this kind of work. $30 later problem addressed.
> 
> Was this appreciated? Expletive deleted not. There simply is no place in some people's​ mind for "appreciation".
> 
> You seem to have a very narrow set of behavior expectations based on what you consider typical and atypical behavior. In reality, the bounds of atypical behavior are leagues apart.


How are WalMart passport photos not acceptable? 

If you go to the Passport Office in DC, there used to be a place right next do to buy pictures. The Passport Office moved to a new location about 3 yrs ago, and I don't know if the picture place followed suit, but it's pretty likely. But even if they didn't, I swear there is a CVS on every corner in DC, and most of them do passport photos, too.

Let me know if you need food recommendations!


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## john117

This is for a passport from the Republic of Frigidistan... Not a US passport. Not every country has the same picture requirements.

My birth country requires that pictures be taken at a specific photo place 😁 near the consulate so they're known good... You'll be amazed at the crazy requirements some countries pose.


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## FeministInPink

john117 said:


> This is for a passport from the Republic of Frigidistan... Not a US passport. Not every country has the same picture requirements.
> 
> My birth country requires that pictures be taken at a specific photo place 😁 near the consulate so they're known good... You'll be amazed at the crazy requirements some countries pose.


Ah, I see. CVS definitely won't do, then.

Does it have to be one of those photos that has the face both forward facing, AND in profile? That's got to be a PITA.

But why the hell are her pictures YOUR problem? She's an adult, she should act like one.


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## jld

john117 said:


> No, it's for her Frigidistan passport.
> 
> Nothing I said alleviated her concerns, in fact, I got blamed because the first set of pictures we got at another place with her "guidance" did not match the requirements. Then she went postal, and went thru her usual meltdown routine while I was busy calling places.
> 
> As I said, you should have been there 😁


She was undoubtedly very upset. And you were right to get to the mechanical root of the problem.

But john, the emotional root was something different. She was fearing something. Did you address that fear? Did you try to reassure her? How?

That ability to reassure is part of emotional connection. It is seeing beyond the obvious and addressing the emotion, and the reason for the emotion. It builds trust and is bonding.


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## john117

FeministInPink said:


> But why the hell are her pictures YOUR problem? She's an adult, she should act like one.


It's still debatable whether she's an adult.


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## EllisRedding

FeministInPink said:


> But why the hell are her pictures YOUR problem? She's an adult, she should act like one.


Worth quoting this .... or in acronym world ... QFT :grin2:


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## john117

jld said:


> She was undoubtedly very upset. And you were right to get to the mechanical root of the problem.
> 
> But john, the emotional root was something different. She was fearing something. Did you address that fear? Did you try to reassure her? How?
> 
> That ability to reassure is part of emotional connection. It is seeing beyond the obvious and addressing the emotion, and the reason for the emotion. It builds trust and is bonding.


Her fear (read, phobia) is that something will go wrong and will snowball into a catastrophe. Regardless of magnitude or probability of occurrence.

And, the older she gets the more irrational the phobias become.

She's a treasure trove of irrational decision making.

Fears are temporary and can be mitigated as you describe. Phobias or even worse, psychosis type reactions, cannot be mitigated in this manner.


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## jld

john117 said:


> Her fear (read, phobia) is that something will go wrong and will snowball into a catastrophe. Regardless of magnitude or probability of occurrence.
> 
> And, the older she gets the more irrational the phobias become.
> 
> She's a treasure trove of irrational decision making.
> 
> Fears are temporary and can be mitigated as you describe. Phobias or even worse, psychosis type reactions, cannot be mitigated in this manner.


You could still be an important part of tackling them. You could provide the practical and emotional support and encouragement she would need to get that kind of courage up.

You know, John, I think I have more confidence in you than you have in yourself.


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## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> This is for a passport from the Republic of Frigidistan... Not a US passport. Not every country has the same picture requirements.
> 
> My birth country requires that pictures be taken at a specific photo place 😁 near the consulate so they're known good... You'll be amazed at the crazy requirements some countries pose.


Yep like the Aussie requirements, if I was ever going to go ballistic it would be at the Passport office.


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## TheTruthHurts

@john117 I have to admit I enjoy your little banter / argument with JLD.


But, truth be told, I always read JLD's posts in the voice of HAL from the movie 2001: "John... what are you doing John? I don't think that's a good idea, John..."

Cracks me up every time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

john117 said:


> Ah, jld..
> 
> This is one of those "you oughta be a fly on the wall" moments.
> 
> This weekend was a classic example. We're going to DC to renew wife's passport. The picture requirements are such that a Walmart type passport picture will not do. We use Sears or JCPenney photo studio instead. Alas, they either closed down or don't do passport pictures​ any more. Needless to say she goes into full scale emotional convulsions while I quickly find a local pro photographer who's open on Sundays​ and does this kind of work. $30 later problem addressed.
> 
> Was this appreciated? Expletive deleted not. There simply is no place in some people's​ mind for "appreciation".
> 
> You seem to have a very narrow set of behavior expectations based on what you consider typical and atypical behavior. In reality, the bounds of atypical behavior are leagues apart.


I like reading your posts John,I think we would probably get along in person,at least for a while.But answer me this,why did you both have to go for your wife's passport.You know it's going to be a melodrama so why put yourself through it.You seem to have a martyr complex about your wife and I think she plays on it.You say you are leaving her in may,with the greatest of respect she may not miss you as much as you think.


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## john117

Because it won't get done otherwise.

It's not martyrdom I'm seeking, it's peace of mind and avoidance of duplicate efforts. 

But you really need to understand the difference between concern, fear, phobia, and psychosis. I do what I do because of concern that left to her own devices she'll show up with Polaroid selfies. She does what she does because of her phobia of failure and her overall irrational mis-processing of consequences. 

In chore land, think of a basic chore I've been doing for decades. She will want to hire it out to make sure it gets done right. Never mind I do it better in many cases. Never mind I did it for decades. All of a sudden I'm suspect. 

After May it's her choice. I can tell you my cat has a better choice of winning the Iditarod than her surviving a month on her own...


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## Holdingontoit

She will survive just fine. She may complain. But she won't flounder. In the end, if she finds it overwhelming, she'll simply find another sucker / victim to prey upon. Some people are good at that. She sounds like one of them.


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## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> She will survive just fine. She may complain. But she won't flounder. In the end, if she finds it overwhelming, she'll simply find another sucker / victim to prey upon. Some people are good at that. She sounds like one of them.


Doubt all of the above. She's happy alone so.... Let's see who does the chores then. 

I'm curious to see if she'll choose counseling vs divorce based on that alone


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## MrsHolland

john117 said:


> Doubt all of the above. She's happy alone so.... Let's see who does the chores then.
> 
> I'm curious to see if she'll choose counseling vs divorce based on that alone


Don't hold your breath. I'm yet to see one person post divorce not get on with life.


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## john117

MrsHolland said:


> Don't hold your breath. I'm yet to see one person post divorce not get on with life.


Most likely if she chooses door #2 or #3 she will return to her country where all chores are done by staff...


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## Holdingontoit

So there you have it. She will be fine. She will hire staff to do the chores she dislikes. Problem solved.

John, if there is a crash and burn coming in her life, it will not be because she can't handle the tasks of daily life. It will be because she desires to have a steady partner, of a high calibre, and she may not find it as easy to attract such men at her current age compared to how it was before she married you. The work she will have to do is not cleaning the toilets, but fooling a quality man into thinking that what she has to offer long term is worth his investment. She will have to feign interest in activities that she dislikes. In the end, I expect that she is capable of pulling that off.

I don't feel sorry for you. I don't feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for the poor shnook she is going to entrap.


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## john117

Actually she's not going to do any of that... She'll simply park herself on a couch and watch CNN on satellite. 

Remarrying at 60 is highly unlikely there. Chores are not the issue because plenty of servants are there. 

We'll see.


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## Andy1001

john117 said:


> Actually she's not going to do any of that... She'll simply park herself on a couch and watch CNN on satellite.
> 
> Remarrying at 60 is highly unlikely there. Chores are not the issue because plenty of servants are there.
> 
> We'll see.


I find it very hard to picture your wife as both a successful business woman and this scared psychotic woman you describe.You talk about her earnings so she must be able to function at some level and control her own life.When you say she may return to her country of birth is she returning to family money or has she her own.


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## Holdingontoit

@Andy1001: That is quite possible. My wife and John's wife are very much alike. My wife has been an incredible success at most every job she had. She is currently the #1 employee where she works and is constantly being offered more assignments. When she volunteered at a local agency, she won volunteer of the year.

But she is a rape victim. And she has a very complicated relationship to sex and her sexuality. So while she can be 100% efficient and effective out in the world, she freezes up around me if anything sexual is "in the air". She freezes up if I treat her well, because then she feels like she "owes" me good treatment in return, and she knows that Physical Touch is my #1 Love Language. Then she feels guilty for not being able to "speak" my Love Language. Then she resents me for causing her to feel guilty (wait, what did I do wrong? Treat her well? That is now a BAD thing?). So she pulls away. Feels conflicted when she is with me. A terrible downward spiral.

None of this happens in the outside world because no one else has any expectation of having sex with her. So she doesn't freeze up. And she doesn't feel guilty. And she doesn't resent anyone for making her feel guilty. 

Took me a long time to realize there was no changing her attitude toward sex. Except to stop having sex with her. Within the past year she has started to feel more comfortable around me. But that required me to give up sex entirely and turn her down several times when she initiated even though it had been over a year since our last session. Is it fun going without sex? No. But, for me, it is better than having a wife constantly living in fear that I might try to initiate sex with her.


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## john117

Andy1001 said:


> I find it very hard to picture your wife as both a successful business woman and this scared psychotic woman you describe.You talk about her earnings so she must be able to function at some level and control her own life.When you say she may return to her country of birth is she returning to family money or has she her own.


He he.

Think antisocial genius gal barricaded in mom's basement working from home for 6+ years on very narrow subject matter.... Goes to office once a month. 

She'll return with a million plus, easily. As will I. But a million dollars buys a lot of chores and a lot of sex... 

And truth be told, I fear chores more than I fear anything else. At age 60 it's stupid to keep a McMansion, pay taxes on it, and do chores for it. Especially when we invite people maybe once a year. All I want now is a chore free Chicago lakefront high-rise condo and a cat. Is that too much to ask?


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## Fozzy

john117 said:


> He he.
> 
> Think antisocial genius gal barricaded in mom's basement working from home for 6+ years on very narrow subject matter.... Goes to office once a month.
> 
> She'll return with a million plus, easily. As will I. But a million dollars buys a lot of chores and a lot of sex...
> 
> And truth be told, I fear chores more than I fear anything else. At age 60 it's stupid to keep a McMansion, pay taxes on it, and do chores for it. Especially when we invite people maybe once a year. All I want now is a chore free Chicago lakefront high-rise condo and a cat. Is that too much to ask?


Putting up with a cat is too much to ask.


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## john117

There's cats and there's cats 😁


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## jasmine31

edit 
jasmine31


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## Haiku

😲


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## *Deidre*

My dad has never really done chores, but he does the yard work. My fiance and I talk about this a lot, and I plan to be at home after we have kids, and I don't mind doing a lot of the housework. Unless we end up having 6 kids or something. lol Then, he will need to help me. These studies are funny to me, but I think it comes down to if both people are working outside of the house. If that's the case, then I don't see why both people wouldn't equally do the chores, together. It shouldn't fall on just one person.


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## jld

*Deidre* said:


> My dad has never really done chores, but he does the yard work. My fiance and I talk about this a lot, and I plan to be at home after we have kids, and I don't mind doing a lot of the housework. Unless we end up having 6 kids or something. lol Then, he will need to help me. These studies are funny to me, but I think it comes down to if both people are working outside of the house. If that's the case, then I don't see why both people wouldn't equally do the chores, together. It shouldn't fall on just one person.


Dug has always helped around the house and with the kids, as well as being the sole provider since we had our first child. He really wants me home, really wanted several kids, and has tried to make it comfortable for me. 

He was the oldest child in his family, and is very responsible and hardworking. I think these qualities are important to consider in a man if there are any thoughts of the woman staying home.


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## jasmine31

edit 
jasmine31


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## toblerone

I put a load in the dishwasher as often as I can.


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## jasmine31

Hi! Ms. jld, happy to see you on the thread, I love reading your posts/comments. Happy Monday to you and your family Ms. jld, hope you have a great week ahead with your family and loved ones.


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## Satya

I rarely ask Odo to do a chore like switch laundry. I ask him more often to clear away things that he's left out, like tools or hardware he's been working on. That's only if I know he's done and I am give him plenty of warning to clear up. He has a habit of spreading things on the dinner table and if I'm making a nice dinner on the weekend I want to eat without a hard drive beside my plate. 

He'll do it without any issue,but he does wait for me to ask. I don't have an issue with that. It's small potatoes. If he does not do something I ask, having ample time and opportunity, I put small things (screws, etc) in ziplock bags and shift the large things to another room. He knows there comes a point where I can't tolerate it any more, but I put it away as neatly as I can. 

He does chores when I'm away on business but when I'm home it's assumed I do them, and I'm OK with that. He does a large number of DIY projects on the home that I cannot possibly do (lack of knowledge).


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## Jeffyboy

This may be a controversial opinion but what if women subconsciously see the man as female when he does the chores because that's how most people are conditioned to think so she's secretly repulsed by it but it's all happening subconsciously, she doesn't realize it?


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## MrsHolland

Jeffyboy said:


> This may be a controversial opinion but what if women subconsciously see the man as female when he does the chores because that's how most people are conditioned to think so she's secretly repulsed by it but it's all happening subconsciously, she doesn't realize it?


MrH does a lot around the house, washing, cooking (we cook together often), anything that needs doing. He works out of the house in a high level white collar career and looks hot hot hot in his suit and tie. He will help me with anything I ask for help with and will go up to the supermarket even if it is just one ingredient I need.

We have sex at least daily. I have never thought as him as a female, sorry that is such an odd suggestion. If anything, his doing so much makes me adore and love him even more, to me he is all man. 

Give me a capable, energetic man that participates in running the household, he is the one I want to have sex with not a lazy little man/child.


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## EllisRedding

MrsHolland said:


> MrH does a lot around the house, washing, cooking (we cook together often), anything that needs doing. He works out of the house in a high level white collar career and looks hot hot hot in his suit and tie. He will help me with anything I ask for help with and will go up to the supermarket even if it is just one ingredient I need.
> 
> We have sex at least daily. I have never thought as him as a female, sorry that is such an odd suggestion. If anything, his doing so much makes me adore and love him even more, to me he is all man.
> 
> Give me a capable, energetic man that participates in running the household, he is the one I want to have sex with not a lazy little man/child.


I think the difference, in your case you 1) appear to be high drive and 2) are attracted to your H. His participating in the household activities only helps strengthen your appeal towards him.

On the flipside, take a W who is on the lower drive side, or isn't physically attracted to her H anymore. Doing chores is going to do very little in the sex category.

That is my issue with the HWHL (i.e. along with doing chores will get you sex), since it is stated on a general basis as the fix for any relationship where sex is an issue. There are so many other variables involved, and it is very likely that a guy taking this advice at face value is going to end up frustrated/resentful.

Separately, and not just you MrsH, but why is it that it seems like the two extremes are always pointed out. You equate that a man who isn't energetic about participating in running the household must be a lazy little man/child. I would bet most people fall somewhere in the middle.


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## Fozzy

EllisRedding said:


> I think the difference, in your case you 1) appear to be high drive and 2) are attracted to your H. His participating in the household activities only helps strengthen your appeal towards him.
> 
> On the flipside, take a W who is on the lower drive side, or isn't physically attracted to her H anymore. Doing chores is going to do very little in the sex category.
> 
> That is my issue with the HWHL (i.e. along with doing chores will get you sex), since it is stated on a general basis as the fix for any relationship where sex is an issue. There are so many other variables involved, and it is very likely that a guy taking this advice at face value is going to end up frustrated/resentful.
> 
> Separately, and not just you MrsH, but why is it that it seems like the two extremes are always pointed out. You equate that a man who isn't energetic about participating in running the household must be a lazy little man/child. I would bet most people fall somewhere in the middle.


Emily Nagoski has an analogy that talks about this situation. She says to imagine that the woman has a gas pedal and a brake. In a HD woman, the gas pedal is floored, and as long as nobody applies a brake, things are good. Things that might apply the brake might be a lazy husband for instance. Applying both the gas and the brake at the same time results in a burnout. You don't go anywhere.

For the LD woman, there may not be any pressure on the gas pedal, so whether you release the brake or not, you still may not go anywhere. Or if you do, it will be a slow journey.


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## Spitfire

I do at least half the housework and work 50 hrs a week. My wife works about 14 hrs a week. A high schooler and middle schooler. When I finally divorce her it'll be because my kids are grown and I'm not taking her crap sandwich anymore. 👍


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## katiecrna

There's a difference between a Husband doing a few things to help around the house vs the husband doing everything around the house. 

A husband who puts dishes away, loads the dish washer, does a load of laundry here and there, cleans toilets is helpful and not a turn off. If I were to come home from work and see my husband dusting, and vacuuming on the regular to me this isn't sexy. So to me it's not whether the husband does chores or not, it's how many chores he is doing. I'm sorry but a wife is not a maid. A husband HAS to help out around the house. 
There is a difference imo between chores and picking up after yourself aka cleaning your plate and cleaning your clothes.


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## katiecrna

It depends on what you consider chores vs cleaning up after yourself. 

To me, cleaning up after yourself is not a chore. It's life. You wear clothes, you take them off and put them in a hamper. You eat dinner, you clean your plate. Your clothes are dirty? You clean them and put them away. 

Chores to me are like vacuuming, moping, dusting, cleaning the sinks and bathrooms, making the bed, washing the sheets/drapes. Cleaning the carpets, mirrors blah blah blah.


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## Deguello

Does not make any difference,in fact,doiing chores actually makes it worse(if that is possible)


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