# Self development



## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

Can self development, whilst having many positive outcomes, make you outgrow your relationship. 

For those who read alot and try to analyse and better themselves, have you ever had the thought that you have kind of outgrown your nearest and dearest. Like if you grow and the other person remains the same (i.e. remains as you both once were) it makes the relationship more difficult and unsatisfactory. 

Often when people present problems on here people will say have your partner read x y or z but the other partner may not want to read or seek self development, at least not at this point. But is there a way of just letting the other be and still having a good relatioship, or do you need to have the other person grow for the relationship to thrive.

Your thoughts and experiences ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Advocado said:


> Can self development, whilst having many positive outcomes, make you outgrow your relationship.
> 
> For those who read alot and try to analyse and better themselves, have you ever had the thought that you have kind of outgrown your nearest and dearest. Like if you grow and the other person remains the same (i.e. remains as you both once were) it makes the relationship more difficult and unsatisfactory.
> 
> ...


My sister is a lesbian and when she met her first long term partner, they were basically just both young, bored, and lonely. My sister is very dynamic and that partner was very passive, and they got along fine. 

Well, after about 5 years, my sister wanted to expand her world. She left teaching and got a job in the corporate world. Her partner left her secretarial job and went with my sister to a medium-sized city. It was an experience for both of them, and their world expanded in many ways.

Well, after about 7 years in the corporate world, my sister met another corporate person, a woman much younger than herself, and immediately fell in love. She started an affair with her, and after a few months, broke off the relationship with the former partner. 

She told me the new partner had goals, and the old partner did not. The new partner shared her experience in the corporate world, and the old partner had just continued to seek secretarial work each time my sister had been promoted and moved to a new city.

So I guess from the experience it would seem like you need to grow together to maintain the relationship.

With the new partner, my sister really started to work on self-development. They went to counseling together, read self help books, joined something called Landmark, and were just all into that. But my sister still had an affair with another woman at one point. The partner forgave it, and I think their relationship has been pretty stable for the last 15 years or so.

I don't think there are any promises.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Advocado said:


> Can self development, whilst having many positive outcomes, make you outgrow your relationship.
> 
> For those who read alot and try to analyse and better themselves, have you ever had the thought that you have kind of outgrown your nearest and dearest. Like if you grow and the other person remains the same (i.e. remains as you both once were) it makes the relationship more difficult and unsatisfactory.
> 
> ...


Yes,it can but that wouldn't stop me from improving myself. 

I need my partner to grow with me or it won't work.If he doesn't have the drive to strive for personal improvement on things he KNOWS could use some work then he isn't the right man for me.

Now if I'm just telling him he needs to improve based on my perspective alone then I don't expect him to follow me at all.

I've outgrown many people.My mother and her nonsense,my ex husband,some friends,etc. 

Sometimes self development is a lonely road.But it's worth it once you surround yourself with people who respect it and grow with you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I know a number of couples, long time married, where one spouse clearly outgrew the other. These were all cases where the bloom was off the rose and the intellectual interests and capabilities of the spouses didn't resonate (perhaps they never did ?). I could see it happening in real time and felt very badly for the mystified spouse who wound up rejected and divorced.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I think it can if you're not on the same page. For me, life has always been a journey of discovery, learning new things, growth, change and self-improvement. Even in late middle-age, I realize I still have a lot to learn and need to make certain changes in order to keep on evolving... 

I don't think it would work for me if I were in a relationship with someone who was content to sit in a rut and gather cobwebs!


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

It's happening in my real life.

The problem isn't necessarily personal growth (which is a good thing), but in growth apart. 

I think it does require good communication between spouses, keeping each other informed of the growth process. (Ex. "today I went to counseling and we talked about x and how I'm going to need to start doing y...", "ever since I started doing x, I feel like I've become more...").


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I deeply need a partner/ lover/ man who is in tune with what is IMPORTANT TO ME ....as I need to care what is IMPORTANT TO HIM as well...being willing to take that ride with each other....

If we started to separate in too many ways ..if he or I felt each was a burden , a hindrance, boring, a loss of respect starts growing.... I can see this easily destroying a relationship.. a Couple needs to grow together.. meeting each other half way. If we have to pull them, we are going to get really really tired.. we will grow weary....weak....and it's going to fall apart.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

jld said:


> My sister is a lesbian and when she met her first long term partner, they were basically just both *young, bored, and lonely*. My sister is very dynamic and that partner was very passive, and they got along fine.
> 
> Well, after about 5 years, my sister wanted to expand her world. She left teaching and got a job in the corporate world. Her partner left her secretarial job and went with my sister to a medium-sized city. It was an experience for both of them, and their world expanded in many ways.
> 
> ...


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Yes,it can but that wouldn't stop me from improving myself.
> 
> I need my partner to grow with me or it won't work.*If he doesn't have the drive to strive for personal improvement on things he KNOWS could use some work then he isn't the right man for me*.
> 
> ...


It's frustrating when someone acknowledges that changes need to happen for the relationship to grow but then do not appear to put forth the effort needed to see things through. I guess at the end of the day you cannot allow others to smother your growth - it will out in time.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> It's happening in my real life.
> 
> The problem isn't necessarily personal growth (which is a good thing), but in growth apart.
> 
> I think it does require good communication between spouses, keeping each other informed of the growth process. (Ex. "today I went to counseling and we talked about x and how I'm going to need to start doing y...", "ever since I started doing x, I feel like I've become more...").


Yes - When the other person doesn't want to know or hear about what went on in counselling it erects a wall/growing apart.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Advocado, the other point I was trying to make at the end, and sorry if I did not express that clearly, is that even when my sister and her second partner were deeply into all manner of self-awareness, self help, personal growth, etc., she still chose to be unfaithful. 

All these self improvement programs can really be helpful, but even with them, there just don't seem to be any promises in relationships. 

Hope that is clearer. Best of luck.


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I deeply need a partner/ lover/ man who is in tune with what is IMPORTANT TO ME ....as I need to care what is IMPORTANT TO HIM as well...being willing to take that ride with each other....
> 
> If we started to separate in too many ways ..if he or I felt each was a burden , a hindrance, boring, a loss of respect starts growing.... I can see this easily destroying a relationship.. a Couple needs to grow together.. meeting each other half way. If we have to pull them, we are going to get really really tired.. we will grow weary....weak....and it's going to fall apart.


It's good that you point out it has to pull both ways - consciously taking into account what's important to your partner as well as wanting them to take on board what's important to you. That said, sometimes I think people are too insecure to voice their issues to their partner or expect their partner to be a mindreader ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Advocado said:


> It's good that you point out it has to pull both ways - consciously taking into account what's important to your partner as well as wanting them to take on board what's important to you. *That said, sometimes I think people are too insecure to voice their issues to their partner or expect their partner to be a mindreader *...


My husband was guilty of this very thing in our past.. during yrs of infertility, then baby after baby after baby after baby...he didn't voice his "needs" to me.. I should have known better, but needed a brick to my head  .... it short circuited some of the passion between us and I took him for granted in some ways.. never too bad.. I was very happy ... but he could have been HAPPIER.. (he just wanted more sex, cuddling, affection, that's all)... so darn easily that could have been remedied.. so I believe.. I was never "low drive".

When the tables were turned.. .I didn't expect a Mind reader.. I articulate what I want.. where I want to go, getting creative -to make that an enjoyable ride....I'd probably voice consequences if he expected me to pull him....too much of that going on would cause a growing resentment. 

It helps tremendously to be clued into the temperament of your partner to know their strengths and weaknesses....his temperament is naturally much more passive over mine (we are stark opposites even)....with his temperament, he doesn't like to bother people, he refuses to be anything remotely looked upon as a burden..... so those married to his type needs to be TUNED IN more so -to what they may be feeling inside, what isn't voiced...... I read all about this.. I enjoy being tuned in on him so much more now...what a difference it makes!


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Advocado said:


> For those who read alot and try to analyse and better themselves, have you ever had the thought that you have kind of outgrown your nearest and dearest. Like if you grow and the other person remains the same (i.e. remains as you both once were) it makes the relationship more difficult and unsatisfactory.


It seems like you are saying that one partner continues to get "deeper and deeper" and the other partner remains, in the eyes of the deeper partner, shallow. It's kind of like you're judging your partner because they are not into books and analyzing and delving into the mind. In the end does all of this "deep" thinking and analyzing really have any substance that's going to help the relationship?


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

committed4ever said:


> It seems like you are saying that one partner continues to get "deeper and deeper" and the other partner remains, in the eyes of the deeper partner, shallow. It's kind of like you're judging your partner because they are not into books and analyzing and delving into the mind. In the end does all of this "deep" thinking and analyzing really have any substance that's going to help the relationship?


I would not necessarily use the word shallow for either party at any stage - just that one has moved in a direction that the other has not. That said I guess there is an element of judging in it as you say. 

As to can it help the relationship - I think yes it CAN, but there's no guarantee. I think SimplyAmorous is an great example of how getting deeper can help. If you learn/know how someone ticks and they learn/know how you tick surely it helps you both avoid resentments and inadvertently winding the other person up. Becoming more able to see things from another's perspective, learning not to take things too personally, building trust and closeness - in general better communication - I want some more of that!!!


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

SimplyAmorous - I am wondering if you have any tips for growing together and building security.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Advocado said:


> *SimplyAmorous* - *I am wondering if you have any tips for growing together and building security.*


It's like you said in your last past..."- in general better communication". 

Growing together...the more self aware each partner is.. the easier that communication is going to go forth... I used a couple articles in my thread here *>>*

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...transforming-our-marriages-relationships.html

Then communication should look something like this *>> *



> PLANTING THE SEED OF INTERDEPENDENCE
> 
> *1.* *Interdependent couples accept the need for them to change and take ownership of their own issues.* They do not blame their partner or others for their problems, nor do they assume the role of a victim. Interdependent couples are able to realize what their issues are on an individual level, and are dedicated and motivated to working through their issues, regardless of what their partner has chosen to do. They recognize when their issues are being brought into the marriage, and are dedicated to their own growth and recovery.
> 
> ...


IF there is *Resentment*, this will need to be uprooted and overcome *>>

* http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...l-etc-how-robs-us-intimacy-we-crave-most.html

If you struggle with *Vulnerability* >> 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html

Learn about *Temperaments* >> 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ments-our-spouses-better-understand-them.html

and... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html

I have a lot of Threat topics , ones that I personally feel help us get closer to one another.. but you always need that willing partner who wants to grow with you...forgive me for all these links.. pick & choose what may be helpful. 

You mention "Security"... is this a trust issue...you need to regain Trust, something has been broken?


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks SimplyA - I will be looking at some of your links. I appreciate your input. 

Regarding security for example - wrongly or rightly I believe my H has issues with saying sorry. I would like for him to explore why he has issues with it but I feel that if I were to talk to him about why some people can't/won't say sorry, or send him an article on the subject, he'll see it as me critising him and retreat into himself and/ or resent me for raising the issue. 

Like he's not secure enough with me to open up but more to the point of this thread I think it would be good if he wanted to understand himself, and others, better. For my part I think this means I need to look at what I may be doing that may make him feel like he is being judged - I can't just blame it on his childhood experiences for example. 

Another issue I suppose is whether or not I have the right to try and get him to try and analyse himself when I am no expert.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

I am having this issue now. My wife and I are trying to rebuild our marriage. Because she refused counsoling I am working my ass off looking for things to improve our relationship. Anything from reading this site to various books that have been recomended to me. What upsets me is my wife (who is an avid book reader) has refused to read anything, saying she does not like self help books. I have initiated a great deal of positive change myself, but if she would just put out a little effort I know we could do so much more. 

And to think that she always said that I was the one stuck in my ways and unwilling to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Advocado said:


> *Regarding security for example - wrongly or rightly I believe my H has issues with saying sorry. I would like for him to explore why he has issues with it but I feel that if I were to talk to him about why some people can't/won't say sorry, or send him an article on the subject, he'll see it as me critising him and retreat into himself and/ or resent me for raising the issue*.


 Yes, this can be very STICKY when you are dealing with one who is very PROUD.. I mean when you really LOOK AT THIS.. why in the world does anyone think they are above saying "I am sorry".. that would make them a Perfect Human being.. none of us are, we say stupid things in a moment, do stupid things, we forget, our actions are sometimes selfish.... Come on.. I married a very humble man, I know this is one reason I adore him.. 

So you will offer "I am sorrys" to him, show some vulnerability - but he will just take take take... on my Characteristics list of being a Real Man.. I have ...this is # 7....



> 7....Humility – Today’s breed of young men loves to let everyone know how much swagger they have. They thump their chests and proclaim to the world, “I’m a Big Deal. Look at me!” Real men understand the value of being humble and letting someone else’s light shine. They realize that humility is more endearing than self-importance.
> 
> Humility indicates that you are ridding yourself of the poison of self-centeredness. Besides, humility softens the blow when someone knocks you off your pedestal.
> Acquiring all of these traits takes time and dedication. However, our society would benefit greatly if all men strove to possess them.


. 

I asked my husband once what he felt was the biggest marriage killer...his reply.. people too stubborn to admit they are wrong...they hang on it it -waiting for the other to cave...what is more important, being Right or finding resolve...



> Like he's not secure enough with me to open up but more to the point of this thread I think it would be good if he wanted to understand himself, and others, better. * For my part I think this means I need to look at what I may be doing that may make him feel like he is being judged* - I can't just blame it on his childhood experiences for example.


 It is a good place to start here... but still our childhood / our relationship experiences..can really mess some of us up... and we do need a new way...a new perspective.... trying to communication this as gently as you can ...and leading by example is the BEST you can do.. to not go there.. well.. I wouldn't be able to do that ..if I was in your shoes! 



> A*nother issue I suppose is whether or not I have the right to try and get him to try and analyse himself when I am no expert*.


 When it is HURTING you, hurting the marriage... YES...you need to talk to him....stuffing will only lead to resentment... just be gentle... You could offer to buy a marriage book & you & he go through it together for example...as a team -no fingers specifically pointing at him.... I think this is about the best available... His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage  ~ these are the *Core Emotional Needs* addressed in that book....



> 1. *Admiration*
> 2. *Affection*
> 3. *Conversation*
> 4. *Domestic support*
> ...


Also you could print out these questionnaires to see where each is desiring something more -to meet each other half way.. 








 Emotional Needs Questionnaire


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Advocado said:


> Can self development, whilst having many positive outcomes, make you outgrow your relationship.
> 
> For those who read alot and try to analyse and better themselves, have you ever had the thought that you have kind of outgrown your nearest and dearest. Like if you grow and the other person remains the same (i.e. remains as you both once were) it makes the relationship more difficult and unsatisfactory.
> 
> ...


The short answer is 'yes', but it requires an explanation. Our personal psychology occurs on three different levels:

1) Archetypal or cultural collective
2) Conscious self
3) Unconscious self

The "Men's Movement" like 'Hold on to your N.U.T.S' is an example of the first type. No group can reveal your internal understanding of masculinity. The Better Man Movement will share its archetypal understanding with you in a proscribed framework. In effect, you are learning to meet someone else's definition of masculinity. (Ex. If you read the book, you cannot help but notice the not-so-subtle attempt to shame you on page 4, "Don't be a chicken"). **

The second level is where the self-help books enter and can provide a descriptive level of understanding without actually doing the work to bring what remains unconscious into the open. It's this third level where the real work begins, where growth and change occurs as an emanation from our core self. 

Growth or change from the first couple levels is transient and contingent because it represents an internalization of external ideas. I call this "plastic growth" because it can change with the wind, albeit a better book or a more enlightened guru. 

The third level has us learning to listen to our internal self... Defining our boundaries, finding our purpose and seeking to love. These changes sometimes necessitate a renegotiation of the terms with our partner, perhaps even a sacrifice of our partnership out of a sense of loyalty and fidelity to oneself. (I realize many will label this selfishness, perhaps noting sacrifice is more noble... C. G. Jung disagrees) When one partner begins IC and the other does not, the partner in IC will probably desire changes that support their truest understanding of self; whereas, the other partner may question the reasons for rocking the boat. This friction or "growth" is as inevitable as it is understandable. Whether or not it dooms the relationship is subject to many considerations, not the least of which are love and fear.

** If you want to gain an understanding of masculinity in our industrial culture, please consider reading:

Under Saturn's Shadow: The Wounding and Healing of Men (Studies in Jungian Psychology By Jungian Analysts, 63) by James Hollis — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists


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## Advocado (Feb 24, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, this can be very STICKY when you are dealing with one who is very PROUD.. I mean when you really LOOK AT THIS.. why in the world does anyone think they are above saying "I am sorry".. that would make them a Perfect Human being.. none of us are, we say stupid things in a moment, do stupid things, we forget, our actions are sometimes selfish.... Come on.. I married a very humble man, I know this is one reason I adore him..
> 
> So you will offer "I am sorrys" to him, show some vulnerability - but he will just take take take... on my Characteristics list of being a Real Man.. I have ...this is # 7....
> 
> ...


At one point he did finally listen to a love languages CD and said it made sense - but somehow we haven't been able to consistently put it all into practise. It just doesn't seem anything of a priority to him. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink !!! When he doesn't follow through I tend to stop trying also so we end up at square one.
:scratchhead:


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## Bushman1972 (Dec 30, 2013)

My wife went to a Buddhist retreat for 10 days(ok to leave me with the kid then wasn't it). Yes it can change people. People change, that's life.


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## Thebes (Apr 10, 2013)

I guess there is some truth in the old saying 'A family that plays together stays together.'

If you start forming different interests your naturally going to drift apart from lack of a common ground. Not saying its necessary to do everything together but some things is a must.


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