# Thoughts and ideas on infidelity and physical aspects of sex men vs women



## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

Feelings and thoughts on differences between men and women when it comes to infidelit
This was a post I put under another guys thread but it became a bit of a thread jack so I decided to place it here as it's own post and will likely post it on other sites as well. Because I'm very curious to start a dialogue about many things I've been learning while studying more and more about relationship and infidelity as a unit and as they exist separately. 

Why so many have such a hard time getting over the physical aspect. 

But it is still going to be very hard. Most men cannot stay and be happy after this has occurred. There was a posting of a study on here or another site that showed the numbers that stay after infidelity and when the wife cheats, far more of those marriages don't stay together. Though a part of this could be explained by the fact that women often cheat both physically and emotionally so they may themselves leave their betrayed spouse. 

But I also find large numbers of men who can't get over it if it was physical. And this has to primarily with the bilogocal and social pecking order. You have been made into the second choice sexually, she preferred another man over and that is often too hard to get over. 

And yes i am with the crowd that believes men and women are different. Not just asexual beings only differentiated by penis or lack thereof, but rather very different all together. 

So the same theories cannot apply unilaterally across the board without taking gender into account. 

And as far as your counselor is concerned, many counselors don't truly get men and try this one size fits all approach. After all, there really is no male psychology subset. And do remember that psychology as a profession really came about recently. And really started taking a foothold for couple counseling etc even more recently. So it's likely to be skewed by the "modern" bias that developed where we believe in treating men and women as carbon copies of one another emotionally. 

Very much all of a mans identity is as a sexual being. You can't bear children, you can't nurse children. You can have sex....that's how you play into the reproductive equation. So when that is removed from you........it's bad. A similar feeling would be a man choosing to have babies with another woman other than his wife. Even though his wife is very much wanting babies with him. Then after the wife finds out, she feels very much like second choice and not worthy on a level that is so deep and so engrained in her, that simply expecting she can choose to get over it any time she wants, would be considered ludicrous. 

But yet with a man, we again dismiss and downplay his feelings and emotions and say "it was just sex", "it's no different than her having had sex with others before you" etc etc.

And yet it comes up time and time again, that men do feel differently about the act when it occurs after their wife has been with them. It's not about dates, timing, or what arrangement or commitment quid qou pro was in place at the time. 

For example, many men can't get back together with their lady if they break up or separate and she goes out and has sex with other men. Technically she was not breaking any commitments. They were broke up. But many men I've talked with cannot get over the idea she gave herself to another man......even though they know she had other men before himself. 

It's a working theory I'm loosely calling "special penis complex." 
It's explains that men think of their penis as special. It's the most special penis god ever created. And his lady was only satisfied or desired those other penises because she didn't know his special penis existed or how truly special it was. But now, after had his penis, it challenges everything he thinks of his penis and by extension himself when she chooses to go have another after having had his. 

I've seen this so often on these forums and others, plus in my own life with a lot of the men I talk with. 

Ok I'm interested in some thoughts from men and women about all this. Please include your status (married, single divorced, betrayed spouse, wayward spouse, other man, other woman, and sex and age, if you would please). It helps to me to better develop my own theories and understanding.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

And yes I'm aware that I wrote in several generalities and the like, so any who wants to point that out, I've just saved you the time. Assume here is disclaimer that I already know that not every situation is the same and that it's possible there are men and women out there who may not fit what I've described.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Talk is cheap. And gets nothing done.

This is why men place importance on action.

Men judge by what is done and hold it more important then what is said.

You can say something and later take it back.

So a WW can of said I love the OM, then later say what was I thinking.

However once a WW lets the OM do her. She can think what was I doing, she can say what I was doing.

A WW however can never take back the action of doing the OM.

For the BH can see his WW recant her feelings for her OM. The BH can never see his WW unbang the OM.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

I thinks your spot on. Men like to feel like they won a prize something highly treasured when we fall in love and marry are partners but when the affair happens that prize stops being special tarnish almost lacking value it once had the person is still the same the body is still the same but that sense of value is gone.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm not sure if this is in flow with the direction you are going, but I've often wondered if the feelings could be influenced based on each partners' sexual experience? Like, if either had been virgins upon meeting each other or if they had slept with other people before? Or even if one spouse had other sex partners before, but the other spouse had only been with them? The idea that either they were your first or you were their first, and them having a physical affair alters that "title" forever. Of course it's painful regardless of this, but would be interested in hearing about situations as such, or if it is even a factor. I feel like it would be for me.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

From a biological point of view a man has two or three strategies:

1) he can seek monogamy with one woman and invest all of this hunting/gathering to her and the children she bears him;
2) a man can have several women at one time and invest in all of them;
3) a man can have sex and make little or no additional investment in the relationship.

Once a woman cheats number one longer exists. Strategies two and three can continue.

Some recovery of one is only possible is the WW is truly remorseful. If she gains weight after R, is that also form of betrayal?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Special penis complex? Are you for real? Like it's somehow the fault of the husband if he can't get past his wife banging another guy?


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

MSP said:


> Special penis complex? Are you for real? Like it's somehow the fault of the husband if he can't get past his wife banging another guy?



No I don't think at all it's husbands fault. This is more the idea of how men and women are and what issues they face with infidelity. 

But I do think that men will have a harder time getting over the physical aspects of the affair. Or even as stated that men can't often get back with a women once she has left and had another man. 

So I welcome more of input about how you think it affects men or women and why. 

-man, betrayed husband, age round 30-


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Thoughts and ideas on infidelity and physical aspects of sex men vs women*



Adeline said:


> I'm not sure if this is in flow with the direction you are going, but I've often wondered if the feelings could be influenced based on each partners' sexual experience? Like, if either had been virgins upon meeting each other or if they had slept with other people before? Or even if one spouse had other sex partners before, but the other spouse had only been with them? The idea that either they were your first or you were their first, and them having a physical affair alters that "title" forever. Of course it's painful regardless of this, but would be interested in hearing about situations as such, or if it is even a factor. I feel like it would be for me.


.......my wife was my "first" 

.......I ...was my wife's ...first.

.......it's not a sign you hang around your neck and announce to the world ....but it's stowed in the back of your mind ...and it was something special.

......when she cheated 18+ yrs ago ...that "title" died. Yes ...we were still each others firsts ....but, it no longer mattered.

......it's devastatingly painful to be betrayed. It's perhaps even more so for a man ...and the physical aspect something that is impossible to "forget" or overcome. I, however, deal with a double barrel dose of agony.....

.....oh ...and I've had her ....and a therapist try to "explain away" her ONS .....with the, "well, you should realize that many people have other sexual partners before they marry". That's ...for the record ...the biggest crock of s__t out there....... and eases zero pain....

......I'll be blunt ...and tell you that I'm a good lover. I might go as far as saying that I'm better than just good. I'm acutely attentive to my wife's 'needs' ...to a fault. So much so that I often sidestep my own sexual satisfaction. I can sexually "keep going" for well over an hour or more ....until I am sure she has been satisfied ..and then some. She's NEVER complained. I could imagine a little gold star on my collar for sexual effort......

......with all that ...which should be making my ego and sex "account" grow .....I feel like total garbage.

....oh ....I'm 52 ....guy (obviously)


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Hurtin_Still said:


> .......I ...was my wife's ...first.
> 
> .......it's not a sign you hang around your neck and announce to the world ....but it's stowed in the back of your mind ...and it was something special
> (obviously)


I can relate. So sorry for your pain.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

John Adams, what's your take on all of this?


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> If she gains weight after R, is that also form of betrayal?


Damn right it is. WW goes to the gym gets toned for OM.

Then after D day lets her self go and is now wearing moo moo's and couture by O T T T.

Omar The Tent Maker.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Emptyshelldad said:


> No I don't think at all it's husbands fault. This is more the idea of how men and women are and what issues they face with infidelity.
> 
> But I do think that men will have a harder time getting over the physical aspects of the affair. Or even as stated that men can't often get back with a women once she has left and had another man.
> 
> ...


I apologise for my grumpiness. I think my blood sugar was low. 

In pretty much all ancient societies, polygamy was normal, but it was one husband with multiple wives. I think that this has a lot to do with the fact that women bond differently and have a different sexual response to men. Men seem to be able to genuinely love more than one woman (this may be a trigger for some--sorry), whereas women cannot. Women seem to have to let go of the old before they move on to the new.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

MSP said:


> In pretty much all ancient societies, polygamy was normal, but it was one husband with multiple wives. I think that this has a lot to do with the fact that women bond differently and have a different sexual response to men. Men seem to be able to genuinely love more than one woman (this may be a trigger for some--sorry), whereas women cannot. Women seem to have to let go of the old before they move on to the new.


That is an interesting point. It could also be said from the above info that men were not capable of sharing their woman physically with anyone other man.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

And also, it could be why there is a usual more warm reception to the idea that a man will be comfortable with his women having sex with another woman, but definitely not a man. 

In fact, in a lot of the cuckhold porn, I see many men calling the women in there slu*ts and who*res and the women themselves refer to themselves as this also. And generally the man also enjoys being degraded which furthers the argument that a mans woman sleeping with another man is somehow very degrading to the husband of the woman. 

Thoughts in this aspect?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Emptyshelldad said:


> John Adams, what's your take on all of this?


Men and women do take a different approach for the most part on the physical part of an affair.

Men, at least many men, are capable of sex with no emotions at all. Look at all the brothels over the ages. Men will pay for emotionless sex. Men will have one night stands. Men will play games to score with as many women as possible.

Women, for the most part, need an emotional attachment for sex. In this day and age, perhaps that is not as true.

For a woman's affair to go physical indicates more than likely there was also an emotional attachment. A physical affair will often be the deal breaker with men. You can accidently become infatuated with another man, you do not accidently have sex with another man.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Hypothetically, when a man cheats, he can still fulfill the same roles as if he doesn't cheat. A man can father children, each with two separate women, and he can provide for both women and their children. He can offer more-or-less the same standards for them both. This is especially true in a polygamous situation, rather than an affair. 

When a woman cheats and becomes pregnant by another man, she denies her husband the ability and right to raise his own child. He now has to use his resources to raise someone else's child. Plus, her attention has shifted away from him. He loses the one thing that men crave almost more than anything: respect. As you noted, ESD, cuckolded men are in a very disrespectful situation. Some of them get off on this, for whatever reason. But the vast majority of men feel deeply uncomfortable by the thought. They lose respect. 

Interestingly, when a man loses respect it effects his hormones, notably his testosterone. A man without respect literally becomes less manly. With lower testosterone, he is less able to compete, have a high sex drive, strive for status in society, and so on. And this can all come about by his wife cheating on him. A cheating wife quite literally destroys his manhood and masculinity, on a biological level. 

When women have their needs met, they're not so fussed, though most won't actually admit it. But history proves otherwise. That's why polygamy was accepted so widely for so many generations. It's also why there are groupies and so forth. Many women will even admit that they'd rather be the second wife of a famous rockstar athlete than the only wife of a couch-dwelling, unemployed slob who lives with his parents. 

Hopefully that makes some sense; I'm pretty darn exhausted this evening.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Men, at least many men, are capable of sex with no emotions at all. Look at all the brothels over the ages.


Prostitution is an interesting little microcosm of gender relations. Men and women having emotionless sex for the one thing they each crave most. Men will pay for sex and women will have sex for pay. (It hardly ever goes the other way). Men value sex more than money and women value money more than sex. At least, the ones who take part in such transactions do.

There is a reason for this.  I'll explain in more detail later, in another thread, because it would somewhat threadjack this one.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

I am noticing a lack of female responders on this, even though I notice TAM seems to have more men sometimes then women. 

but I admit that I was hoping to hear from both sexes on the issue. 

male/father of 2 /beyrayed husband / age around 29


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Start a varient of the thread in the ladies lounge. Most women don't like the biological explanations. No romantic. Also, they have to deal with periods and the the "irrational" dictatorship of their moods.

Shelldad,

You are going to get to the truth more than most. Your exWW has accepted you back as the man who has right to date other women while she de facto does not. For the day she starts dating, your non marital R is over.

I am just curious to see if you can get her to lose weight without getting into a negative situation. Weight and attractiveness, those are part of the physical aspect of the affair, don't you think?


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Here my thought and this is based on the old school traditional way of thinking.
Whether men freely admit it or not there is still an underlying concept as a woman being a man's property heck most wedding vows still place a woman subservient to a man.
Man of the house, head of the household, men are stronger than woman, a man's job is to be their protector we instill these values in our sons from the beginning.
Religion is all about these values (no I am not blaming religion) the world is still very much set up the same way, so it makes sense when a woman cheats, your property that which is your's is no longer it has been taken. I someone steals your car and wrecks it even after it is fixed and returned to you it is not the same. Personally I would have rather someone wrecked my car than my wife's *****, I don't think I would have nightmares about someone wrecking my car LOL.
Now let's go further(I said this in another post) sex is instinctive a means to procreate in the animal world the biggest strongest males mate with the females, the females only want to mate with those stronger males so the offspring is bigger and stronger.

As a man who has been cheated on your wayward has picked the stronger male(even if he really wasn't) given away *your* property and has went outside of your protection.

Crazy probably but I really believe we are all wired from the womb our actions and reactions come from a deeper place, our experiences may influence the decisions we make but at the end we are all built the same.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Emptyshelldad said:


> It's a working theory I'm loosely calling "special penis complex."
> It's explains that men think of their penis as special. It's the most special penis god ever created. And his lady was only satisfied or desired those other penises because she didn't know his special penis existed or how truly special it was. But now, after had his penis, it challenges everything he thinks of his penis and by extension himself when she chooses to go have another after having had his.


That may be a way to think of it, but I think it comes down to the way our dna programs our brains.

Most of us married women who were not virgins. They'd experienced unprotected sex with other men if they were on the pill, as so many women are. While it isn't a joyous thing to think about my wife having done this, it doesn't ruin my marriage.

Her having sex, protected or not, in an affair is only another data point, another sex partner for her. Yet, it has a completely different meaning and consequence on the husband than her earlier partners. And it is different than simply an EA, even though *logically* a long term EA would be far more destructive to emotional intimacy than a single drunken ONS with a stranger.

The only answer is that it is the threat of her becoming pregnant with OM's baby. And I think this is substantiated by the very worst kind of affair sex being unprotected sex.

It is just the way men have been wired forever.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Hurtin_Still said:


> .......my wife was my "first"
> 
> .......I ...was my wife's ...first.
> 
> ...


How you doing? 








just a bit of levity. I like dark humor.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Emptyshelldad said:


> I am noticing a lack of female responders on this, even though I notice TAM seems to have more men sometimes then women.
> 
> but I admit that I was hoping to hear from both sexes on the issue.
> 
> male/father of 2 /beyrayed husband / age around 29



I'll play.

BW, LT marriage, 50, been together 30 years and currently separated...just doing the time until the D.

Personally, I think it all boils down to the ownership complex that guys have. They think of their wives as their property and now, that property is tainted. Society reinforces this in many different ways.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

If my wife had an EA, I would be as mad as hell, but I might work through it. If she had a PA the marriage would be declared DOA and she would be the murderer.

Emotional attachment can be worked through. I could be mad enough to murder someone but be forgiven for my feelings, if I acted on them and ended someones life, there is no taking that back. 

Same if my wife developed feelings for OM. If she was remorseful, I could work with her still. If she let OM paint her cervix, that would be pulling the trigger. No taking that back.

As far as "ownership". I would consider that I own my wife's intimacy and she owns mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> As far as "ownership". I would consider that I own my wife's intimacy and she owns mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fair enough.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I am sorry women but it is ownership and territory. Have you ever watched a male picking up on a women at a bar. Once he has been allowed to join her for a drink or dance or whatever, He leaves his smokes or keys on the table, he is marking his territory.

Once we marry, she is ours. I know this is basic but we have won the right to mate with her. No other male is supposed to mate with her. That is the primal part of this.

We can deal with the past lovers because we rationalize that our penis won. It was better then the others.

My wife and I are in R and that is something I finally came to grips with, she left my protection, my providing for her and wanted better. That is how I looked at it. With her is was somewhat more involved with her emotions, self esteem and age


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

"When a man is taken in adultery with another man’s wife, if the husband shall stab the adulterer, or knock out his brains, this is bare manslaughter: for jealousy is the rage of man, and adultery is the highest invasion of property.

"If a thief come to rob another, it is lawful to kill him. And if a man comes to rob a man’s posterity and his family, yet to kill him is manslaughter. So is the law though it may seem hard, that the killing in the one case should not be as justifiable as the other." -- Lord Chief Justice Sir John Holt, R. v. Mawgridge, 1707


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Separated - (today would have been 13 years) Female, 30s

I do not think that the differences are innate to gender per say. There are women that can have emotionless sex, and some even use men to replace feelings after the end of a relationship. The opposite also applies - there are men that cannot have sex without getting attached (I dated one for a few weeks - total beta type, which did not go so well with me). 

I think the alpha / beta argument comes into play more than gender here, it just so happens that the prevalence of alpha males is greater than the prevalence of alpha females. 

I am a female, and while I believe I could overcome an EA, a PA is an absolute deal breaker -- I am a very visual person, so the mind movies would be too much for me to overcome. 

For the record, I would also consider myself to be a more alpha-female type.... Successful, educated, upper mgmt, athletic homeowner, very independent, etc.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You still have to go to jail for manslaughter these days.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> As old school as I am, that was never, ever in my mind. I could not even think of owning another person. I am not, nor ever have been, intelligent enough to know what they need without them having a voice, freedom to act, a life. I only get joy from the responses I get from a loving action I've given them and their happiness. Owning someone takes all that away. It is a worthless venture and I haven't even Yet, touched on how wrong it is for them. I really dislike that term. It's way over the top. I don't think many of the folks using it understand what they are writing and the full meaning of the term. If they do, it's an intentional post to incite dischord.
> 
> I am not accusing you of doing that, yet. It just alerts me to the possibility when I see that type of response. It does not allow for thoughtful discussion many times. I do think there can be a kind of ownership thought. I know my father was from the old school and he never thought, to my knowledge, that he owned my mother. Actually, she handled the bills and all the money. How can he control her completely, like is done if one owns another, if she controlled the money and how it was spent? It doesn't make sense.


I'm a woman, so no, I don't think that way.

I don't think it is conscious though. It just is. The point on the marking of territory was right on. My comment of ownership was not meant as an insult. I think it is a very primal thing and doesn't mean you disrespect your wife.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> You still have to go to jail for manslaughter these days.


Unlike Texas law, which decreed these circumstances to be justifiable homicide, English law specified "manslaughter" as the charge as opposed to "murder," which was a hanging offense. Sir John makes the point that it is inconsistent that a man cannot kill a posterity thief (adulterer) with impunity, even though he may kill any other type of thief caught in the act, but "so is the law."

By no means do all those found guilty of manslaughter go to jail.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Emptyshelldad said:


> It's a working theory I'm loosely calling "special penis complex."


Couldn't resist
I have always though my penis was special in fact it says hello to me every morning

It is a true friend not matter how tight the spots are I have put it in it has never complained once, in fact usually it shows great enthusiasm doesn't matter how tight or sticky the situation it keeps cumming back for more

If it wasn't special why did I give it a nick name

It was there at the birth of all my children

The only reason a dog is called a man's best friend is that it would be rude to pet your penis in public

Sorry for the bathroom humor something about "special penis complex" makes me silly


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

*snort* some of y'all are so obvious.






Oh yeah, I keep thinking about that special magic penis instead of SPC.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Fenix said:


> *snort* some of y'all are so obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I can make it disappear but my wife has to be around and feeling frisky.

special magic penis sounds like what you would tell your son when talking about the birds and the bees

and no that is not the nickname for my special friend


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This topic has been done a million times (here and everywhere else)--and I am not saying this to sound curt at all, but what I want to say is that pretty much everywhere you read/hear about this topic, the responses/conclusion is almost always the same:

Men find it harder to forgive/get past a sexual affair and women find it harder to forgive/get past an emotional affair.

It's pretty standard. 

Men value the act more, maybe it's a territorial thing (as many of you are suggesting) and women value emotions at a very high level.

This is why I have always said that if a woman has an emotional affair it is WAY worse than a physical affair (for her). If you add sex into that, it's a molotov c0cktail.

You wanna know why?

Because the heart never forgets.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Married 27 years female, h the WW, cant get thur the EA or the PA mind games. The hardest part for me in all attempted part of R is the thought of sex with him after the ow. ((and I really enjoyed & like sex)). One of the first things I said to him when I found out about the affairs was, "Did it ever accure to you, that I might not ever want your penis to ever touch me again?"

- sammy


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What did he reply, Sammy?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Women and their vaginas have a secret and complicated life. Men can never, regardless of how much we obsess, be entirely in possession of it for more than some moments.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> Women and their vaginas have a secret and complicated life. Men can never, regardless of how much we obsess, be entirely in possession of it for more than some moments.


?


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

xakulax said:


> I thinks your spot on. Men like to feel like they won a prize something highly treasured when we fall in love and marry are partners but when the affair happens that prize stops being special tarnish almost lacking value it once had the person is still the same the body is still the same but that sense of value is gone.


Wow well said. I've been trying to put into words how I feel about my marriage and my wife. This pretty much nailed it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> This is why I have always said that if a woman has an emotional affair it is WAY worse than a physical affair (for her). If you add sex into that, it's a molotov c0cktail.
> 
> You wanna know why?
> 
> Because the heart never forgets.




That just triggered me.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sorry.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Whoa. I am really unsure why you are posting so nastily to me when I have done nothing to be offensive to you. In fact, I have even defended you in other threads. This comes after both you and your husband have sent me a friend request on TAM. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I do not mean to sound disrespectful*...you certainly have a right to your own opinion regarding this subject...but you said something that cut and cut deeply.


Really? Cause your post does sound disrespectful. Yes, I have firsthand knowledge. Because I have been there. I type from my experience. With that said, not every situation is the same. 

I personally think an emotional affair is WAY worse for a woman. You have your opinion and I have mine. As do we all. You don't have to agree with me. And clearly you don't. To each their own. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Unless you have cheated...unless you have first hand experience _with this the heart does not forget crap_...*then please don't speak for those of us who feel NOTHING except regret or remorse*[/I]


Not once in my post did I say anything at all about people not feeling regret or remorse. To suggest that I did is reaching. 

As for stereotypes, "most women don't flee a marriage unless they have something to flee to." If what you are suggesting is that people mostly flee when they have a relationship to run to, I disagree. Not everyone who leaves a marriage does so because they have someone waiting in the wings. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I did not plan to Fvck him...but I certainly had the opportunity to STOP!
> Having said that *I want you to know*w...I did not grieve for him, I do not think about him, I feel NOTHING toward him.


You don't owe me an explanation at all. I am not your husband nor does what happens in your marriage affect me. I'm not sure why you feel I wanted to "know" that. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Your statement caused a trigger... for someone here..because perhaps in his case...his wife did not fit your statement. Just like me.


People trigger at different things. I do myself. With that said, LordM and I go back quite some time. I would never post anything to deliberately hurt him. He is my friend. The entire point of this thread is was to weigh in on the different ways men and women view physical versus emotional aspects of infidelity. 

Again, I'm not sure why you posted such an incendiary post toward me. My post was not meant to offend you or anyone else.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

People are complicated. Personally, I don't buy the EA aspect for women, nor do I buy the heart doesn't forget. This is true for some, but not for all. I wouldn't even say the majority.

Having said that, people are going to get triggered here. It kind of is the nature of the beast. We can't tiptoe around that too much; it would gut the board. At least, that is the perspective of a newbie.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well everyone has a different opinion on it. That much is true. What I posted was hardly original. Most women do tend to attach an emotional component to a man they have an affair with, which is what the author of this thread (and so many others in this thread) have stated.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Second...I would like to ask you to not to make a blanket statement that covers all WW's. My husband thinks I had an EA and a PA....why...because MOST women do not have a PA without some sort of EA...most women do not flee a marriage unless they have something to flee to...not all certainly...but many.
> In my own case...*I certainly was not in love with the OM...but I was charmed by him....infatuated with him. *I agreed to go out to lunch with him because *I THOUGHT there might be a chance for a future relationship with him*. I did not plan to Fvck him...but I certainly had the opportunity to STOP!
> Having said that I want you to know...I did not grieve for him, I do not think about him, I feel NOTHING toward him.
> Your statement caused a trigger... for someone here..because perhaps in his case...his wife did not fit your statement. Just like me.


I don't understand this line of thinking. 

For example, I am not on speaking terms with my father anymore. 
Several yelling matches when we still lived together, and a few fist fights destroyed our relationship. 
I have seen his true colors, and they disgust me. I am ashamed that man is my father. I have cut him out of my life entirely, and it makes my life a lot harder. But that is not the point. 

I can't go back and say I didn't love my father when I was younger. I simply can't do that. When I was younger, my dad was my hero. 
Now that I know what he truly is, and capable of, I refuse to speak to him. 

You say you were charmed, and infatuated. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, because those words could be changed to mean in love. 

Is it possible that before your husband discovered what was going on, and it all blew up in your face, that you were in fact, in love with the OM in some form of the word? Just like I loved my dad? 
But after seeing what the OM truly was, or realizing what it was you were doing, you hated him?


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

This is only my opinion but like many here I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night.

First I don't think being charmed and infatuated with a person is love, lust yeah but not love in time that infatuation can grow into love but it may take some time.

Second I think there are different emotional affairs the first one involves some one meeting those emotional needs giving you the love you have been missing, making that personal connection in a few words falling in love.

Then there are the ea's where it is all about the attention mostly sexual in nature, giving a boost to the self esteem, reviving a lost sexual energy and in some cases compensating for a LD relationship.

Being physical with the first type of ea is the cementing of the relationship taking it to the next level, we were all there with our current SO in the beginning you date, find common ground, emotionally bond to the other and then sex comes into it. Now this doesn't always happen in this order but I do hope you see my point. 

The physical part of the second EA is part lust and mostly paying the tab for the attention you have been getting. The deep emotional bond can certainly grow from this type of thing but mostly it is just about the sex, more of a friend with benefits than a serious relationship.

We group EA's as anything that doesn't involve being physical but a true EA is a relationship a bond the start of something serious the second is really about the sex.

I think women in the first type of EA that goes physical are the ones who can't seem to let go because they have started to see that AP as a mate.

The other group once they realize the sexual attention they received was only to get them into bed have a much harsher opinion of the AP. (Yes I do think a person's ego can get in the way of rational thinking but their morals and commitment should be more than enough to stop them from their sins)

Either way as discussed here once it gets physical men do seem to have more difficulty getting past it but then again nobody is having fun dealing with this men or women.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

love=pain said:


> This is only my opinion but like many here I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night.


El. Oh. El.

I recall reading somewhere that, upon discovering that his/her spouse is in an affair, men and women often react differently. For women, the first question is typically, "Did you f*ck her?" while, for men, the first question is typically, "Do you love him?". Why? It all has to do w/ love. Women tend to attach emotionally BEFORE engaging in sex while, for men, the opposite is often true.

Having said that, every situation will be different, one size doesn't fit all, YMMV, yadda yadda blah.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Quite the opposite for us..the first question my husband asked me was did you f him.


Yes, I think the conventional wisdom is the opposite of what Gus said.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Quite the opposite for us..the first question my husband asked me was did you f him.


I gathered that, hence the disclaimer at the end.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> This has bothered me ever since you posted it.
> First...I would like to know if you have ever had an affair?
> 
> Second...I would like to ask you to not to make a blanket statement that covers all WW's. My husband thinks I had an EA and a PA....why...because MOST women do not have a PA without some sort of EA...most women do not flee a marriage unless they have something to flee to...not all certainly...but many.
> In my own case...I certainly was not in love with the OM...but I was charmed by him....infatuated with him. I agreed to go out to lunch with him because I THOUGHT there might be a chance for a future relationship with him. I did not plan to Fvck him...but I certainly had the opportunity to STOP!


You did have an EA. You confused being charmed and infatuated with being in love with the OM because your feelings for the OM made you receptive to move your EA to PA

And it does not matter if a woman had a PA without a EA to most men.

An EA is just words to a BH. They can be upsetting for a BH to hear his WW say she loves the OM.

Though a WW can wake up from her affair and say what was I thinking about. Thus taking back what she said.

There is no WW that after her affair is over. No matter how much she regrets having the PA with the OM. That can unbang her OM. The PA is a physical act/acts that can never be undone.

A BH can let his WW take back her words. They are just words. The physical acts that his WW gave up to the OM can never be taken back by the WW or be undone because those physical acts are actions.

Actions are concrete. Emotions and words are not.

Men place so much more importance on actions then words. Men do not want to share their wives. For a wife to give up herself physically to another man is the worse thing a wife can do to her husband.

This is why men can let go of an EA and say thank god it was not a PA.

Problem with equality and all the Feminazi propaganda is that they confuse equal rights under the law with men and women being equal.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

I think it's interesting that people here are debating which is worst EA or PA does it matter really the affair no matter in what form is a devastating blow to any relationship. Honesty as a man I don't care what type of affair it is what I care about is that there is a third party involved in my relationship which is uninvited and unwelcome.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

love=pain said:


> The physical part of the second EA is part lust and mostly paying the tab for the attention you have been getting. The deep emotional bond can certainly grow from this type of thing but mostly it is just about the sex, more of a friend with benefits than a serious relationship.
> 
> We group EA's as anything that doesn't involve being physical but a true EA is a relationship a bond the start of something serious the second is really about the sex.


See, to me the second type of A you posted is more a sex thing, not really an emotional affair in the true sense. It's about getting rocks off, no emotions tied in.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Women tend to attach emotionally BEFORE engaging in sex while, for men, the opposite is often true.


Exactly. Most women want and need that emotional component to have sex. It's why women get upset if their husband/partner cheats and falls in love or has feelings for someone else. Because women place a massive value on emotions and feelings. So a deep EA that goes PA is baaad news.

On the contrary, most men indicate that they feel their wife/partner is "tainted" after she sleeps with another man; because they place a higher value on the physical act. You see it all throughout the various threads on CWI. How men feel they can never look at her the same again.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Exactly. Most women want and need that emotional component to have sex. It's why women get upset if their husband/partner cheats and falls in love or has feelings for someone else. Because women place a massive value on emotions and feelings. So a deep EA that goes PA is baaad news.
> 
> On the contrary, most men indicate that they feel their wife/partner is "tainted" after she sleeps with another man; because they place a higher value on the physical act. You see it all throughout the various threads on CWI. How men feel they can never look at her the same again.


I think you are mostly right on with your statement. Always exceptions, but pretty accurate JB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Nope not possible at all. My husband didn't find out...I told him. It did not blow up in my face. I was not in "love" with the OM. I knew him 8 weeks...was never alone with him during that time. Made a lunch date with him...did not go to lunch...went to his house instead...had one sexual encounter...never saw him again.
> 
> You had a relationship with your father...maybe not a good one but a relationship none the less. I did not have a relationship with the OM.


You are hiding behind semantics MrsAdams. You had a relationship with your OM. People that are married and in affairs/EA's/PA's are still in a relationship. Just because you did not date the OM out in the open you were still in a relationship with your OM.

Maybe I am naive or to old for today's latest dating practices. Most women do not just hop into bed. You liked the attention you got from your OM. Whether the OM was a skilled predator or you just wanted it just as much as the OM is of no importance.

Yes this one time did blow up in your face. There was a D day. The result is that you are still facing the fall out from all those years ago. You and your BH have been trying to move forward. Though something keeps dragging the both of you back into the past.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

theroad said:


> You are hiding behind semantics MrsAdams. You had a relationship with your OM. People that are married and in affairs/EA's/PA's are still in a relationship. Just because you did not date the OM out in the open you were still in a relationship with your OM.
> 
> Maybe I am naive or to old for today's latest dating practices. Most women do not just hop into bed. You liked the attention you got from your OM. Whether the OM was a skilled predator or you just wanted it just as much as the OM is of no importance.
> 
> Yes this one time did blow up in your face. There was a D day. The result is that you are still facing the fall out from all those years ago. You and your BH have been trying to move forward. Though something keeps dragging the both of you back into the past.


You are being to literal with what she said. I wouldnt consider what she had a "relationship". Having a crush on someone and meeting them one time, even if it ended with sex, is not a relationship. 

Also, when she said it did not blow up in her face, I think she means that the lie did not become so big that she couldnt cover it up and her husband busted her. No, she confessed because she couldnt live with the lie. Busting your spouse and having them confess on their own are not the same. One takes courage, the other is having something blow up in your face.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> You are being to literal with what she said. I wouldnt consider what she had a "relationship". Having a crush on someone and meeting them one time, even if it ended with sex, is not a relationship.
> 
> Also, when she said it did not blow up in her face, I think she means that the lie did not become so big that she couldnt cover it up and her husband busted her. No, she confessed because she couldnt live with the lie. Busting your spouse and having them confess on their own are not the same. One takes courage, the other is having something blow up in your face.


You have a problem hiding behind semantics as well.

She had a relationship. It lasted 8 weeks. She did lie. She lied by omission. She had lived the lie for 8 weeks. Then had a blow up because there was a D day.

Though I respect her for confessing on her own. There has been fall out to deal with for 30 years. That is a blow up in your face situation. Getting caught or confessing does not change what happened in an affair.

It is easy to say it was just a crush now past D day. People do not cheat just because they find an AP attractive. Affairs happen because people do not maintain appropriate boundaries with the opposite sex.

Communication took place between the AP's for 8 weeks. That was a relationship that ended in sex.

OM knew how to work her to get into bed. She allowed herself to be worked. The OM did not go caveman. Club her on the head. Drag her back to his bedroom and bang her. He courted her. She let the OM court her. That is a relationship.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

TheRoad, I get what you are saying about EAs and PAs being a relationship. No, not in the "marriage" sense but they are a relationship. Kinda like how a FWB is not a formal relationship but it's still a kind of relationship.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

There's an awful lot of projecting going on in this thread.

Guys, not every situation involving infidelity is the same.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I agree "The Road" you are the one "hiding". 

What is your deal? Why do you toss grenades and not explain your actual point of view. 

Just judgements.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

theroad said:


> [SIZE="
> Maybe I am naive or to old for today's latest dating practices. Most women do not just hop into bed. You liked the attention you got from your OM. Whether the OM was a skilled predator or you just wanted it just as much as the OM is of no importance.
> 
> Yes this one time did blow up in your face. There was a D day. The result is that you are still facing the fall out from all those years ago. You and your BH have been trying to move forward. Though something keeps dragging the both of you back into the past. [/SIZE]


This in itself is a puzzling contradiction! "today's latest dating practices" and "all those years ago". 

Do you have an issue with a their truth? It is their story both sides. You don't have to like it or agree with it. 

You are being inflammatory and I don't see the purpose!


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> There's an awful lot of projecting going on in this thread.
> 
> Guys, not every situation involving infidelity is the same.


Whew thanks Gus! I thought I was untangling a crazy logic puzzle. It's just projection not a puzzle.

There's an agenda at play and I don't think it's going in a constructive direction.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree that no two stories are the same but I don't think Theroad is being inflammatory when he states that EAs and PAs are a *kind* of relationship. Because in essence, people in affairs do have a relationship on a base level. It's not like they are strangers to one another. Most APs actually know eachother.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> You are being to literal with what she said. I wouldnt consider what she had a "relationship". Having a crush on someone and meeting them one time, even if it ended with sex, is not a relationship.
> 
> Also, when she said it did not blow up in her face, I think she means that the lie did not become so big that she couldnt cover it up and her husband busted her. No, she confessed because she couldnt live with the lie. Busting your spouse and having them confess on their own are not the same. One takes courage, the other is having something blow up in your face.


Well Hawx20, I'm standing here with having "blown it up". The damage hurts. I'll never know if he confessed how that would have felt. I just know I turned 007 I found out piece by piece. It was excruciating and the pain is real.

There is no one size fits all answer.

My answer that is right for me is the really hard road of reconciliation. Again no one size fits all approach.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I agree that no two stories are the same but I don't think Theroad is being inflammatory when he states that EAs and PAs are a *kind* of relationship. Because in essence, people in affairs do have a relationship on a base level. It's not like they are strangers to one another. Most APs actually know eachother.


Vague or the detached nature of the probing questions feels inflammatory to me JB but I'm raw. 

And there are so many types of people with different stories. The idea was thoughts on the topic. It shouldn't get ugly.

I'm truly puzzled by some of the posts. Asking for clarification when someone is making those calls is trying to understand better. 

If it is just judgement or moral outrage, then one stone is more than enough I would think. 

I'm trying to understand but confusion added to this is not helping here. JMO


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Exactly. Most women want and need that emotional component to have sex. It's why women get upset if their husband/partner cheats and falls in love or has feelings for someone else. Because women place a massive value on emotions and feelings. So a deep EA that goes PA is baaad news.



...and this is what the ww fails to understand,:scratchhead:


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

kristin2349 said:


> Vague or the detached nature of the probing questions feels inflammatory to me JB but I'm raw.


I hear you. It's hard to discuss infidelity without interjecting personal experiences into it. We all are here with our experiences. It's hard not to feel raw when we read something we've experienced. 

Nonetheless, I still agree with TheRoad though on APs having a relationship at a base level. I'm not really sure how that can be argued with. An affair is a kind of relationship. A bad one, sure, but it's still a relationship.



sammy3 said:


> ...and this is what the ww fails to understand,:scratchhead:


Well she may fall into the camp where it was just sex for her and had zero emotions for her AP. Or it could have been quick crush that she didn't act on (with no physicality/sex). It could happen. With the former kind, I find that those are more rare. Especially for women. Sammy, she may not get it now or understand fully what her affair did, but eventually she will (hopefully). Are you guys still together?


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> Well Hawx20, I'm standing here with having "blown it up". The damage hurts. I'll never know if he confessed how that would have felt. I just know I turned 007 I found out piece by piece. It was excruciating and the pain is real.
> 
> There is no one size fits all answer.
> 
> My answer that is right for me is the really hard road of reconciliation. Again no one size fits all approach.


This is how I see it. My wife had it blow up in her face. She came home from the gym and it was by fluke chance that I grabbed her phone to take a pic of my daughter who was making a funny pose. I didnt see my phone, hers was right there, and she must have completely forgot about the text messages that were made earlier because she didnt flinch a bit when I picked up her phone.

As soon as I turned on the phone....BAM! There they were. I was frozen in shock for a few seconds and then exploded. She had no idea this was going to happen and I'll never forget the look on her face. Both of our lives were forever changed in an unexpected instant.

She tried to hide the lie. No matter how hard you try, the truth will find a way to come out. Do you know how many insignificant things had to happen for me to find out that night? Her hiding the truth boiled over and blew up.

On the flip side, if she had decided she had enough and couldnt live with the lie....well then I would still have been hurt and angry, but it would have made R much easier and I would have respected her more for having the courage to admit it. I ask myself everyday if this would still be going on had I not found out.

Just because both ways have roughly the same outcome does not mean it blew up in your face. As far as using the word "relationship", I guess you can stretch that word to cover any interaction with anyone. I get breakfast from the same place every day. The woman knows my order and doesnt even have to ask. Technically, we have a relationship. Realistically we dont. Its all semantics.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

xakulax said:


> when the affair happens that prize stops being special tarnish almost lacking value it once had the person is still the same the body is still the same but that sense of value is gone.


Zdrastvuitye, kak dela.

This comment of yours resonated with me.

My mother started a conversation recently about whether I would be wanting to meet up with my last g/f again if she lost interest in her new boss.

I said "Nah, as far as I'm concerned she's damaged goods now".

Funny how we all think in similar terms. 

My mother then said ( almost verbatim: ) "That's what your grandfather said to me when I had your brother (eldest half-brother). He told me I was "damaged goods". When your father married me, he said I was lucky to find someone. I said, he's lucky to have me." 

Ma then said that not long before my grandfather died, he repeated the same thing again.

Pretty cruel to hear, but... perhaps blunt? His honest opinion?

But here's where the thing is: I don't think of my mother as "damaged goods", she's great. It pains me to think my grandfather said these things to her face. 

So I'm going to re-evaluate this...

Or should I? Because whatever I may _say_, I think of this ex-g/f, and anyone like her, as 'damaged goods'. Perhaps our society is such a sh*t-tip because everything damaged is whitewashed instead of rebuilt.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> As far as using the word "relationship", I guess you can stretch that word to cover any interaction with anyone. I get breakfast from the same place every day. The woman knows my order and doesnt even have to ask. Technically, we have a relationship. Realistically we dont. Its all semantics.


I would hardly equate a someone you order food from to someone you have an affair with. If that were the case, spouses would be hurt by who you ordered breakfast from. Not at all similar.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm not arguing a relationship exists. But I attach different levels of importance to some than others. When my personal "noise" leaks into a post I try to explain why. 

It's not my intent to cause any more pain. I'm just trying to understand mine. These threads can just compound injuries. Reopen wounds that have healed or cause one to look at scars. Some days I'm ok with my scars, they prove I survived. Other days I'd like new skin. Thick new skin.

There are some "in general" statements made that pushed all of my buttons. But that would only derail things further.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> You are being to literal with what she said. I wouldnt consider what she had a "relationship". Having a crush on someone and meeting them one time, even if it ended with sex, is not a relationship.
> 
> Also, when she said it did not blow up in her face, I think she means that the lie did not become so big that she couldnt cover it up and her husband busted her. No, she confessed because she couldnt live with the lie. Busting your spouse and having them confess on their own are not the same. One takes courage, the other is having something blow up in your face.





Mrs. John Adams said:


> The road...I am so glad you were there and know everything about my life...gosh...I am overwhelmed.
> 
> How about if you discuss your issues and stop discussing mine like I am not here?
> 
> You are here why? Help me understand you. Let's leave me out of it shall we?


And I am so glad Hawkx20 was there to witness what happened 30 years ago.

I respond to what I read.

From what I am reading you are still minimizing what you did 30 years ago. It takes more then a WW to confess her affair to her BH to make just compensation for having an affair. You pick and choose where and how much blame you are willing to accept.

You selectively pick and choose where to minimize your actions before D day, D day, post D day, by using semantics.

Just as a past president minimized and said he did not have sex. Semantics. Putting a spin on it. Damage control. Changing perception.

Distorting the truth. Is that being honest?


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The road...I am so glad you were there and know everything about my life...gosh...I am overwhelmed.
> 
> How about if you discuss your issues and stop discussing mine like I am not here?
> 
> You are here why? Help me understand you. Let's leave me out of it shall we?


I am not here to argue on a personal level.

Though I will gladly debate issues. Such as what you do not see as a relationship and what I see is a relationship.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. JA 

Don't go down "The Road"


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

theroad said:


> I am not here to argue on a personal level.
> 
> Though I will gladly debate issues. Such as what you do not see as a relationship and what I see is a relationship.


I call BS what are you here for? 

:scratchhead:


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Kristen...reminds me of a song...ease on down ease on down the road...lol
> Of course I know it reminds you of a book...what was that authors name again?



Umm, Cormac McCarthy! And his post-apocalyptic depressing book of the same title.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Everyone is here because it's an open forum.

It's interesting that some folks in this thread are getting upset over the personal questions that they have asked others posters about. 

Sorry to high-jack your thread, Empty!


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I would hardly equate a someone you order food from to someone you have an affair with. If that were the case, spouses would be hurt by who you ordered breakfast from. Not at all similar.


I didnt say that. All I said is the way theroad was defining a relationship was like that. If I sleep with that woman today, by his definition, its a relationship. 

What Mrs. Adams had I would not consider a relationship at all. I also would not consider it a ONS. Again, its semantics and people will see it from different points of views.

To me, a relationship would be if they talked daily on a personal level, shared moments together, discussed their feelings for each other, spent quality time together, and of course sex.

A ONS is simply meeting a stranger and having sex that day/night.

Neither one of those describe what Mrs. A had. It was simply a crush/fantasy that she got caught up in, and unfortunately, acted upon it. 

Why some of you are getting so caught up on what it is or isnt is beyond me. All that matters is her husband accepted it and they are happy together. She made a horrible mistake and she paid her dues and continues to do so.

Look, I am a freshly BS. If 30 years from now my WW talks about me like Mrs A does about Mr A, I will be a happy man. I will never forget what she did, and there will always be some pain until the day I die, but I will be able to say I am a happy man.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well we will obviously disagree, because to me I do not agree that affair partners have zero kind of relationship.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I don't argue it's a public forum JB. 

Emotions are high on this topic no doubt! Back to the OP and the topic at hand. I can't detach personally on this one and go Tom Brokaw. Just ask for facts when my emotions are so flared.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Jellybeans...what about ONS where two people meet for the first time in a bar let's say....and go to a hotel for a night of sex. Is there a relationship there by your definition?


A short physical relationship. Smiles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> A short physical relationship. *Smiles.*


:rofl: Conan!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Honestly, all of this is completely subjective. What does and doesn't constitute a "relationship" will be different for each person. The same will hold true for things like ONS, etc.

For some people, a "one-night stand" may refer to a situation in which two people have known or interacted with each other for some time (whether minutes, days, weeks, etc.) and then, due to whatever stimuli (alcohol, genuine interest, etc.), the relationship became sexual, but only the one time. To someone else it could be defined by a brief encounter between strangers, where not even names or numbers are exchanged.

Here is what will matter to almost everyone -- the "before" (what lead to it), the "during" (when, where, etc.), and the "after" (how it was uncovered, did it continue, where to go from here, etc.).


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

it all boils down to how loose of an interpretation you want to get with the word "relationship". Technically, anyone you interact with is a relationship. The example I used about the woman who takes my order for breakfast every morning.....thats a relationship in a broad sense of the word.

In the context of what this forum is for, I would not call Mrs. A dealings with the man a relationship, again in the context that we use it here (marriage, girlfriend/boyfriend, best friend, exes, etc.).

I call my suv a car but its not. Sometimes I call it a truck but its not. Sure, in the broad sense it is, but not really.

Again, in the broad sense, you can call it a relationship just like you can any interaction between people. For all intents and purposes, in this context, it isnt.

can we move on now?


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ok lets move it up a notch..
> Say you have two people...who know the same people....they attend a party ...and meet. So now they know each other. Let's say...they run into each other again at the grocery store a few weeks later...talk...and...decide to go to lunch...and go to a hotel afterwards. Do they have a relationship?


I would say no that sound more like friends with benefits situation something I have personal experiences with and don't recommend.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Gus...you are absolutely spot on! and you said it very well!
> 
> We all have our own definitions....even MR JA and I don't agree on this one! I say mine was a ons...he says it was an ea/pa. The bottom line remains the same...I cheated. It doesn't matter what kind of names you give it, I had an affair.
> 
> edited to add...I wish I could double like your post!


Obviously I don't know your husband but I'll hazard a guess as to why he feels this way... It's because you knew the guy. In fact, you knew him for weeks and interacted w/ him at some level on a regular basis during that time. And then, knowing everything that you did, you were interested enough to see where it could lead. Well, you found out.

Now, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here; I'm not in any way judging or condemning you. As you said, you are accountable only to your husband and yourself (and, if you believe, God) for your actions, and no one else. 

I've read a few of your posts, and I see that you often refer to yourself as "a cheater". Unless that's something that's still in your heart or something that you're still engaged in, I would disagree. You f*cked up. You made a mistake. It just so happens that you made a really terrible and extremely painful mistake. But you shouldn't let that mistake define your identity.

In the end, you came clean, of your own volition, knowing very well what the fallout could be. You owned your mistake. Both of these things say a lot, at least to me, and I'm sure they do to others as well, including your husband.

One of the things that is hardest for anyone dealing w/ any sort of infidelity is the loss of innocence. I've said this before, but I'll share again... The hardest thing for me to accept was the notion that good, honest, and otherwise morally upright people CAN -- and will -- make mistakes, even mistakes as emotionally devastating as infidelity. My parents' divorce, as well as my own experience as a BS, have taught me this.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I have to admit before coming here I lumped all cheaters into one category, and it wasnt good. Of course before this happened to me I couldnt ever fathom staying with my wife if she cheated on me.

I wrote my wife a letter telling her that even though she fell and nearly destroyed me emotionally, I'm strong enough to take it and help her back up on her feet to be by my side once again. 

She is the mother of my children and if anyone deserves a second chance, its her. Both for our sake and our childrens. I will help her back up despite how hurt and weakened I am right now. I feel she is a woman who made a horrible mistake and I will fight for her.

Like I said earlier, if 30 years from now she speaks about me to others the way Mrs. Adams does about her husband, it will be all worth it. I can sense the love in her words and the pain in her heart for what she did.

Its not our mistakes that define who we are, its how we recover from them.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

MSP said:


> Special penis complex? Are you for real? *Like it's somehow the fault of the husband if he can't get past his wife banging another guy?
> *


*So with that being said, could I then reasonably assume that it's also a wife's fault, if for some strange reason, that she just can't get over the fact that her husband is out banging another woman?*


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

xakulax said:


> I would say no that sound more like _friends with benefits_ situation something I have personal experiences with and don't recommend.


*Friends with benefits:*

*Isn't that largely the same thing as say, a "gigolo" or a "gigolette," who refuses to accept a fee for their services? Just saying!*


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *Friends with benefits:*
> 
> *Isn't that largely the same thing as say, a "gigolo" or a "gigolette," who refuses to accept a fee for their services? Just saying!*


I would haft to agree :lol:


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Exactly. Most women want and need that emotional component to have sex. It's why women get upset if their husband/partner cheats and falls in love or has feelings for someone else. Because women place a massive value on emotions and feelings. So a deep EA that goes PA is baaad news.
> 
> On the contrary, most men indicate that they feel their wife/partner is "tainted" after she sleeps with another man; because they place a higher value on the physical act. You see it all throughout the various threads on CWI. How men feel they can never look at her the same again.


Which is what pi**es me off - I have read the correspondence. There was an intense attraction. He made her feel desired. She admitted that much - made her feel alive/wanted. The EA was well established before the PA - emotions and feelings were sparkling. However there is enough wiggle room in her mind to outright deny any intense feelings; even the act itself is relegated (minimised) as so so. The damn lies which defy logic.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

love=pain said:


> This is only my opinion but like many here I did stay at a Holiday inn express last night.
> 
> First I don't think being charmed and infatuated with a person is love, lust yeah but not love in time that infatuation can grow into love but it may take some time.
> 
> ...


Well said L= P - and it would be a be a great benefit for this particular BS if my WS would have helped me define. But she minimised the guts out of it and then shut it down. Leaving me, armed with quite a bit of info nonetheless, to try and piece it together. Any observation, comment fact-finding mission was met with a denial - "it was nothing like that....", 'I don't remember....". I could have dealt with an EA I think, maybe, but the idea that some creep had his hands all over her and that she sees it as justified is too much.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPoli I've said this before said:


> This is where you and I will disagree. I can go with the rest of your post, but not this part.
> By the time a spouse is banging away with their POS, they have gone a long way down a path to being an otherwise bad person. Betraying, lying, breaking vows, destroying families, selfishness, are some of the evils that someone has to embrace and become to have an affair.
> 
> There is no good characteristic of infidelity. Everything associated with it is vile, evil, and destructive.
> ...


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I'm with The Adams Family on this one. I'm pretty sure they could make it through anything. I myself have learned so much. 

I can truly say I hope to have a marriage just as loving someday. You two really amaze me.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Pepper123 said:


> I'm with The Adams Family on this one.


Cousin Itt or Uncle Fester?


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

I only respond to the words that this WW writes.

I can not call a WW a FWW when she still says she did not have a EA/PA. Where she still tries to diminish what she did as by calling it a ONS.

While her BH calls it a EA/PA.

I am sorry that people can not see her hiding by semantics. She to this day admits having sex with the OM while simultaneously always using language to make what she did less harsh sounding.

Sugar coating is not fully owning up to what she did.

As if a person commits murder and they point out that well at least they made it quick to minimize the deceased's pain.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

theroad said:


> I only respond to the words that this WW writes.
> 
> I can not call a WW a FWW when she still says she did not have a EA/PA. Where she still tries to diminish what she did as by calling it a ONS.
> 
> ...


You've made your point. Repeatedly. Now give it a rest.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> This topic has been done a million times (here and everywhere else)--and I am not saying this to sound curt at all, but what I want to say is that pretty much everywhere you read/hear about this topic, the responses/conclusion is almost always the same:
> 
> Men find it harder to forgive/get past a sexual affair *and women find it harder to forgive/get past an emotional affair.*
> 
> ...


That's because women are more likely to get into an EA much to a BW's chagrin because of the idea that they, EA partner can get intimacy (that thing that us women crave when entering a one to one relationship) without having to , umm "give up the goods."

to take it a step further, the EA interloper is getting the coveted goodies to the relationship while the wife still has to have sex with the husband; still put up with the petty in laws; with his petty friends and so on. 

I'm aware of a fair few women who like the idea of getting something (free meal; attention; assistance whether personal or professional like a handy man around the house or some easy professional networking) without ever having to close herself off to other men. 

I used to be a big fan of Miss Manners (Judith Martin) but it's only now that I understand why she would write that a lady should never accept an expensive gift from a man unless it was her husband or her father. I guess that was one way that society kept down the incidences of active EAs back in the day.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I know from my own experience now, it doesnt matter if you are male or female, it hurts. Some men never want to touch their wives again, some are willing to. Some women never want their men to touch them again some do. Some dont care as long as they are back together, and some never want to see each other again. Some live with making amend for the rest of the marriage, some dont. And some never had to ever live with it. 

All I know for sure, relationship or not, it's fvcked up, destroyed many lives, the psyche of so many, and sometimes ruins somethings that just never had a reason to be ruined, when there were so many other options, other than pure selfishness. 

-sammy

LW- no, he never answered...
Mrs JA, there's reasons for a lot of those red flags.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Pepper123 said:


> I'm with The Adams Family on this one. I'm pretty sure they could make it through anything. I myself have learned so much.
> 
> I can truly say I hope to have a marriage just as loving someday. You two really amaze me.


The Adams family! Much needed levity. They are both REAL people and as amazing as they get. 

They don't need to be here defending or explaining anything. The fact that they are I will always be personally grateful for. When you find yourself in the worst pain you can imagine and a complete stranger reaches out...It is the definition of love and kindness.

They restored my faith in people. I can't begin to explain at the moment it still makes me weep. 

The jabs (and I'm bring kind here)are just uncalled for.

This was supposed to be a "thoughts and ideas" thread not an indictment.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> Perhaps our society is such a sh*t-tip because everything damaged is whitewashed instead of rebuilt.


Today's throw-away society includes pets and partners. We can only hope to parse out the phonies and liars and find someone with whom we can have a satisfying relationship. Long term, if that's what you're looking for (most of us here are).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Horizon said:


> Which is what pi**es me off - I have read the correspondence. There was an intense attraction. He made her feel desired. She admitted that much - made her feel alive/wanted. The EA was well established before the PA - emotions and feelings were sparkling. However there is enough wiggle room in her mind to outright deny any intense feelings; even the act itself is relegated (minimised) as so so. The damn lies which defy logic.


Sorry to hear that, Horizon. That means she is still denying it to you and isn't owning it. So she is still lying by indicating there was never an intense feeling there or that she wasn't attracted to him intensely as she actually was. Especially if she is casting him in an awful light now (and I am guessing, she only started to do this AFTER you found out about the affair, which is obviously suspect). Her poking holes in him is a way to deflect. Yeah, generally that EA is well-established before it goes PA in those cases.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm wondering what will be playing on the iPod/stereo for your Valentine's Day dinner? (Some Richard Marx?)


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have owned it for thirty years. My husband and I have been in successful reconciliation for thirty years.


That is incredible. Congrats to both of you. 

Clay


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Mrs A is holding herself to a higher standard. The type of woman Mrs A is would see an EA as a justification. She offers no justification, total responsibility. 

No one can ask for more.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

(I'm slowly making my way through this thread, but just wanted to jump ahead while some thoughts were fresh. Please ignore if I am repeating points already made.)

I am always puzzled by the dichotomy that people draw re biology vs. emotions. Scientists will argue, quite convincingly, that this distinction, however intuitive, is wrong-headed. Experiencing emotions has a biological basis, just like everything else we do. It is often argued that men can have sex without emotions and that women have their emotions tied up in it more than men, which may well be an observable phenomenon, but for both genders the behavior, including the emotions, is biological.

The argument that we have innate impulses that are materially different from cognitive ones also, to me, represents a false opposition. The fact that we reason and speak language is as deeply biological as the other impulses we have.

I think the idea that men are more likely to reject a mate who has physically cheated boils down to the notions that men are driven to carry on the species via their own genes & a cheating mate introduces doubt and danger to the whole process. This has been said before & is generally what scientists believe, as I understand it. Women know without any doubt that they are the mothers of the children they bear and are looking for security to raise them to adulthood, thus a cheating but secure husband doesn't engender the same insecurity as the cheating wife does to the husband.

Emotions of all kinds are associated with any cheating scenario. We have different evolutionary adaptations, sometimes with conflicting outcomes, e.g., the impulse to procreate drives sex with multiple partners, while the impulse to monogamy protects the children. There is plenty of research to indicate that the pain associated with infidelity is a biological reaction to enforce monogamy, thus encouraging a safe upbringing for children, thus promoting survival of the species......

Bit of a stream of consciousness here, but my general point is that everything is biological. The problem with any counterargument is that you simply can't prove it, at least not scientifically.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I have never been able to have a one-night stand. I was a sexual abuse victim and while some women become promiscuous as a result, I believe my rape lead me to be more prone to monogamy. 

I can have wild, crazy sex. I love and enjoy sex WITH ONE PERSON. I also have to know and trust that person to want to have sex with them. So to me, the sexual aspects of infidelity were very damaging. I don't put sex on a pedestal. I don't even believe in waiting for marriage but I do need to feel like I can trust the person I give my body to with my life. It is also meaningful to me to give my body to someone because I had my body "taken" from me by force through rape. 

I trusted WS. He shat on that. The sexual aspects for me sometimes outweigh and are sometimes on par with the emotional aspects of it. I do think for some women it's the reverse.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm glad to see more and more people getting involved in the discussion about the original topics. I do however wish that those with personal feelings about subjects that have nothing to do with the thread would have enough respect for the rest of us to take their comments and conversation to private messaging where it really belongs. 

I myself, simply try not to answer anyone who is taking the thread off topic by arguing with me about anything that is really off topic of the thread. That's why private messaging is so good for private conversation. 

But I do thank everyone for continuing the discussion of this seemingly controversial topic in order to further our understanding of the human dynamic that makes up the complex issue of infidelity.


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