# She 'needs' another baby. Love your perspective.



## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

I love my wife. I think she still loves me. Married 12 years. Things have not always been amazing but other than this issue everything else seems salvageable. 

We have 2 amazing kids - boy 8, girl 11. Did I mention they are amazing. Okay, I may be biased.

My wife has always wanted 3, I have always wanted 2 (the size of the families we came from). Like many things in our relationship, we didn't communicate our kids count needs well over time. I in no way feel I have _ever_ committed to 3 kids.

She had eased off the demand for 3 after several years but then she came to me a while back with a lump in her breast. We were both very concerned. I of course provided my full support that we would do whatever was needed to keep her stay healthy. It was a scare because her Mom had a very serous scare with breast cancer (mastectomy). Turns out it was a fairly common benign type of cyst. But we learned she has 'dense breasts' (no nothing to do with their intellect  And that she was pre-disposed to have more of these cysts, but the good news is that the cysts themselves were not correlated with cancer. Just lots of regular screening tests. She had the genetic testing done and luckily she does not have the high risk genes. Now a couple of years later she has more cysts - so many that she has had a surgeons advice that having them removed (which is an option with 1 or 2) isn't really viable at this point. The cysts get VERY painful in a monthly cycle.

The good news is the type of cysts they are, they will actually go away once she enters menopause. The bad news is that this is likely still about 15 years away if she follows the timing of her mother. The other potentially good news, entering a breast feeding cycle would also make the breasts go away, until the breast feeding is stopped. So a baby would mean 3 years (plus she could pump for a couple so 5 years on the outside) of a respite. 

So after looking at various possible solutions: cyst removal, breast removal, surrogacy, and getting pregnant, she has chosen the last one and is pressuring me relentlessly to have that 3rd child.

Last piece of background: she is 40, I am 51. We have done well financially so that isn't an issue. With some great luck in business I have just retired. Unfortunately I have been killing myself with 80+ hour weeks for the last decade and suffer with a very bad lower back (surgery a few years ago that still nags at me). My wife stayed home from work while the kids were young, and is now back part time, mostly to fill the time the kids are at school.

<Sorry for all the background but wanted to make sure you had the full picture>

On to the question: Is it fair for my wife to pressure me for the 3rd child, now saying she needs it for her health, and by not doing it I am the selfish, self centered and my lack of compassion on this issue has "killed our marriage".

Your unbiased thoughts please. Not just looking for support for my situation here. Would really like to know what you think.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Let me break that up a little



justme011235 said:


> Is it fair for my wife to pressure me for the 3rd child


I'm not sure about "fair", (that word always sounds a bit adolescent to me), but yes, it is appropriate for your wife to let you know how much she wants this. It would actually be wrong if she didn't communicate that to you. 



justme011235 said:


> now saying she needs it for her health


Is that her real reason? You say she's always wanted it. The most important consideration is the potential child's welfare. 



justme011235 said:


> and by not doing it I am the selfish, self centered and my lack of compassion on this issue has "killed our marriage".


No, it's not selfish for you to communicate your view. In fact it would be very wrong if you "just went along with it". You didn't tell us much about your reasons for not wanting it.

What does this mean, about _"killed your marriage"_ ? You didn't really say anything about that. If the marriage has been killed, then you absolutely shouldn't have another child.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

This same scenario played out with my brother...While he'd never admit to it, and his little one is very happy and healthy, deep down, I know he was not on board with the third child, and just gave in to his wife(now ex wife, btw)...

And IMO both of you are too old for another child...I know that sounds harsh considering I don't know either of you personally, but I really don't know what people expect...And with both of you having health problems the last thing you need is to start chasing around toddlers..Even having two kids as young as yours at your age is a bit much...Most people at your age have kids entering college...You know already how much work kids can be, imagine what happens if let's say you have a kid with some special needs, or has some other issue that requires more parental involvement, energy and enthusiasm...Now you are entering late 50's and 60s with a little kid and you are physically tired and busted down.. That's exactly what happened with my brother and the whole experience became very stressful and quite possibly/probably the main reason that they are now divorced...

I dunno, man......If it were me, id put my foot down on this issue....You already have 2 wonderful kids and are past 50...Heck as it is now you will likely be pushing 70 before your youngest gets out of college...You have a kid now and you won't ever get to take a break in your older years...Tell her to do it with another guy in the next life...The fact that she is pouting about this like a little child is enough of a reason to not do it...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Omg no to the child. I'm your age, there is no way I'd have a third child. Especially if you don't want one, I think it will ruin yout marriage. Remember what it's like with a newborn in the house? And you'll be in your SEVENTIES and it will still be in college. Yikes. 

Does she have fibrocystic breasts? Is she trying to control it with diet? Breastfeeding isn't a cure all. I still had fibrocystic areas and I breastfed for two years, two times. Did you know your chances of developing breast cancer are actually high DURING the time you are breastfeeding?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I believe in the individual’s right to reproductive freedom and self determination. 

This is not simply an abortion stance; I believe men also have the right to choose their own paternity. 

Just because we are males does not mean that we are indentured sperm providers. 

Women are able to abort babies without the father’s consent. There for we should also have the right to say no, we do not want to raise and support more offspring. 

I was 40 when my second was born. Both were terrible high-risk pregnancy and both kids had serious complications with the 2nd being in NICU for 3 weeks. 

I wasn’t going to go through that again. I informed my wife that I would be getting the plumbing disconnected. She was not at all happy about that but knew I was serious.

I was at a point that I would prefer she divorce me to have another pregnancy and birth with another man than to go through that again. I made the appointment and got snipped despite her reservations.

At 51 you are a fully developed and mature adult that can make your own decisions and have agency in your reproduction.

Each of those choices will have potential consequences. The consequences of have another baby at 52 is self apparent. It would suck royally. 

She may have long term resentment and bitterness if you don’t. 

She has the right to leave you and seek another sucker.....I mean another man to father another child if she wants one that bad. But her chances of accomplishing that is pretty low if she doesn’t look like Jenifer Anniston. 

Bottomline here is you have the same reproductive rights as she does and you shouldn’t be forced into parenthood any more than a woman.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It seems like a very wrong reason to have a child, and while you mention 3-5 years of 'possible' respite, will she actually breast feed a child till he or she is 3-5???? Seems like a much longer time than most women do, and will it definately offer a respite anyway? No one can be sure.

We had three children having originally agreed on 2 and never regretted it, but I was young and had them all in my 20's, she is much older at 40 and many women start having peri-menopausal symptoms sometime in their 40's anyway so she may not have to wait too long no matter when her mum had her menopause. Also it may be pretty hard for her to get pregnant at her age and there is a far greater risk for her and a baby the older you get.
Must admit if I were retired at 51 I would not want another baby, but if her heart is set on it its a very difficult situation for you to sort out. I suppose thats one of the problems of having a big age gap, if you were also 40 you may well feel differently. Having said that, I do know men who had babies after retirement and they thoroughly enjoyed the extra time they could spend with their child that they didnt have with their older children, my dad was one of them and several years older than you when he had my half brother..His wife was 40. The child has turned out to be a lovely young man.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Ugh. Why on earth would anyone have a kid at 40 and even worse, a man at 51?

She sounds like the type who can only feel 'worthy' if she's having kids. My ex's wife is just like this - she already had 3 kids when she met my ex and they were all around the ages of your kids, OP. Rather than get further education or get out and get a job now that these kids were self-sufficient and didn't need to be dressed and bathed and have everything else done for them, she suddenly started wanting to have yet _another_ kid now that her youngest was 10. It's like she felt that's the only purpose she has in life and needed another kid to continue doing it.

I can't even imagine starting over at 40. Ugh. My son entered college when I was 44 and it was time to start living my life, not having a baby. You've got another 10 years before you can even_ think_ about living your life for yourself. Add a baby to that and *now* you're looking at 18 years before you can even begin to enjoy your golden years. Do you really want to be 70 years old attending your kid's high school graduation? Seriously?

go do some reading from those who were born to late in life parents and see how ripped off they feel. Over the years, I've seen so many young adults complain about how unfair it was to be born to older parents and how much they missed out on.

You don't NEED another kid, your wife just *wants* one likely because the option of going back to work full time or finding something else to do that makes her feel productive doesn't appeal to her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Ugh. Why on earth would anyone have a kid at 40 and even worse, a man at 51?
> 
> She sounds like the type who can only feel 'worthy' if she's having kids. My ex's wife is just like this - she already had 3 kids when she met my ex and they were all around the ages of your kids, OP. Rather than get further education or get out and get a job now that these kids were self-sufficient and didn't need to be dressed and bathed and have everything else done for them, she suddenly started wanting to have yet _another_ kid now that her youngest was 10. It's like she felt that's the only purpose she has in life and needed another kid to continue doing it.
> 
> ...


I have to say that I know quite a few parents who had their children at that age and never regretted it. A good friend of mine had twins at 40, and was a great mum and her children are doing well. They really dont need to miss out on anything just because their parents may be 10 years older than other kids parents. Not many women have children young these days.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I have to say that I know quite a few parents who had their children at that age and never regretted it. A good friend of mine had twins at 40, and was a great mum and her children are doing well. They really dont need to miss out on anything just because their parents may be 10 years older than other kids parents. Not many women have children young these days.


This couple already has two kids, who are already getting older and not in the young kid age.

He's in his 50s.

And yeah, some people do feel ripped off who have older parents. I personally know some.

Your bring up a good point-- twins. Often, older parents end up with twins, the chance goes up as you age.

If you already don't want a third child in your 50s, imagine if you agreed and had twins.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

A lot of women are having kids at 40 these days. Personally, it's not something I would want but I don't think it's too old. You're in your 50's though... My parents were grandparents by your age. They love my kids... and they love sending them back to me as well. 

There is nothing wrong with your wife saying she wants a third baby, but her pressuring you and being manipulative is wrong. To be honest, this is something couples have to accept when they marry with a large age gap. 

She needs to be focusing on a permanent solution, not a temporary one that is life changing. 



Diana7 said:


> you mention 3-5 years of 'possible' respite, will she actually breast feed a child till he or she is 3-5???? Seems like a much longer time than most women do


My wife nursed our older two kids until they were 5 years and 3 years old. They both self-weaned. So some women do nurse for that amount of time but it certainly isn't what most women do.

OP, has your wife ever nursed a child that long? It's one thing to say you will do it, and another to actually do it. Also, her breasts could stop responding to the pump so she can't count on that either.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

No, that’s a cop-out (IMO). I had the same issue she does and while it was certainly difficult at times I survived it without the “need” for another child to “help” me get through it. She wants a third child and she’ll say whatever it takes to get you to agree. When it comes to the number of children, there’s usually one who wins and one who doesn’t. Your wife plans to be the one who win.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Holding a toddler for hours upon hours with an already bad lower back sounds fun!


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## Aviator (Oct 22, 2020)

My gorgeous wife of 45 was in her sexy bathrobe one day and said "I might be fertile but you can love me if you want". I thought to myself how often in life is it that a beautiful woman is literally ready to have my baby... I was so consumed by her loveliness, sexiness, and sweetness- I simply could not walk away.

Got a beautiful three year old daughter who is literally the apple of my eye and brightens up every day and lights up every room and place we go.

Can't say it will work out for you like this of course... but I'm so thankful I threw caution to the wind and followed my instinct. It's funny though because my instinct was really nothing more than a wild desire to make love to my wife.

I'm sure this sweet daughter will someday grow up, move out, and break my heart... but thank GOD for giving me this sweet little girl to love. I'm going to enjoy every day I have with her!

Best of luck to you. I'm 51 also but crappy at business and will never retire.. lol.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Aviator said:


> My gorgeous wife of 45 was in her sexy bathrobe one day and said "I might be fertile but you can love me if you want". I thought to myself how often in life is it that a beautiful woman is literally ready to have my baby... I was so consumed by her loveliness, sexiness, and sweetness- I simply could not walk away.
> 
> Got a beautiful three year old daughter who is literally the apple of my eye and brightens up every day and lights up every room and place we go.
> 
> ...


But did you already have two other children together?


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## Aviator (Oct 22, 2020)

My wife and I are married forever and have lots of older kids too. Got to be honest though after skimming above- I have no health or back issues... am as fit as I was when I was twenty (more tired). Less fiery though and more patient and wiser. I've got lots of life insurance too!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> This couple already has two kids, who are already getting older and not in the young kid age.
> 
> He's in his 50s.
> 
> ...


My friend was overjoyed with her twins. Children are a blessing for most.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

bobert said:


> A lot of women are having kids at 40 these days. Personally, it's not something I would want but I don't think it's too old. You're in your 50's though... My parents were grandparents by your age. They love my kids... and they love sending them back to me as well.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with your wife saying she wants a third baby, but her pressuring you and being manipulative is wrong. To be honest, this is something couples have to accept when they marry with a large age gap.
> 
> ...


Goodness, in the uk they go to school at age 4. Not sure how that would have worked out!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

The thing is that your wife has always wanted three children. Maybe if you had agreed years ago you could have already had 3 children who are all at school. Most people dont retire till about 65 where I live, you have 15 years on them so plenty of time and energy despite back issues. Whatever happens one of you looses if you look at it that way, and that will cause you severe issues between you there is no doubt about that. Although you loosing out isnt really a loss so much as there will be a lovely baby in the mix. Your wife realises that she is facing her last opportunity to have a third child, with you anyway.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> The thing is that your wife has always wanted three children. Maybe if you had agreed years ago you could have already had 3 children who are all at school. Most people dont retire till about 65 where I live, you have 15 years on them so plenty of time and energy despite back issues. Whatever happens one of you looses if you look at it that way, and that will cause you severe issues between you there is no doubt about that. Although you loosing out isnt really a loss so much as there will be a lovely baby in the mix. Your wife realises that she is facing her last opportunity to have a third child, with you anyway.


What is it with you? He DOESN'T WANT another child. Many people don't want a new child when they are in their 50s. Another child wouldn't be a "blessing" to them. Many people don't want even a second, or third child, and there's nothing wrong with that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> What is it with you? He DOESN'T WANT another child. Many people don't want a new child when they are in their 50s. Another child wouldn't be a "blessing" to them. Many people don't want even a second, or third child, and there's nothing wrong with that.


However his wife very much does, hense the conumdrum.


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## Jessrn (Jul 27, 2020)

justme011235 said:


> I love my wife. I think she still loves me. Married 12 years. Things have not always been amazing but other than this issue everything else seems salvageable.
> 
> We have 2 amazing kids - boy 8, girl 11. Did I mention they are amazing. Okay, I may be biased.
> 
> ...


I'm only 31 so I dont know how it is to be of retirement age and be thinking of bringing another child into this world. I do however have a 13 year old girl and now a 9month old baby. My husband and I had flip flopped on the idea of having another child considering the huge age difference and starting all over. We eventually were more for having another baby, which I do not regret at all but I think I would have been fine with just one. Now putting myself in your situation and your age there is no way I would have another child (not saying your old) You said you guys are set financially. I would be enjoying the rest of my life with my spouse and children traveling or whatever else it is you like to do. Just talk to her and tell her how you feel. Maybe come to her with some ideas of how you guys can spend your lives and time doing something else instead of raising another baby. Hope this helps.


justme011235 said:


> I love my wife. I think she still loves me. Married 12 years. Things have not always been amazing but other than this issue everything else seems salvageable.
> 
> We have 2 amazing kids - boy 8, girl 11. Did I mention they are amazing. Okay, I may be biased.
> 
> ...


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

justme011235 said:


> My wife has always wanted 3, I have always wanted 2 (the size of the families we came from). Like many things in our relationship, we didn't communicate our kids count needs well over time. I in no way feel I have _ever_ committed to 3 kids.


I assume she feels she in no way ever committed to only 2.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Get a vasectomy and ensure you are not a parent again. I think you are at risk for a planned "oops" pregnancy.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

michzz said:


> Get a vasectomy and ensure you are not a parent again. I think you are at risk for a planned "oops" pregnancy.


If he did that without her knowing that would be a sure way to break up their marriage.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Livvie said:


> What is it with you? He DOESN'T WANT another child. Many people don't want a new child when they are in their 50s. Another child wouldn't be a "blessing" to them. Many people don't want even a second, or third child, and there's nothing wrong with that.


It’s true that not all of us want more children. I only wanted one, had only one, and never wanted more.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

My wife has EXACTLY the same condition as yours and she has gone under the knife three times thus far. Our doctor gave exactly the opposite information that your wife is giving you.

Outside of that: The answer is still .... hell no !!!!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> If he did that without her knowing that would be a sure way to break up their marriage.


Possibly so, but I think the wife is already on that trail.

He could float it, but how do you think that would go?

What is she thinking, pressuring a man over 50 recently retired to have another kid?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

michzz said:


> Possibly so, but I think the wife is already on that trail.
> 
> He could float it, but how do you think that would go?
> 
> What is she thinking, pressuring a man over 50 recently retired to have another kid?


Well he just happens to be rich enough to have been able to stop work, but he is no where near the normal retirement age and isnt old. Many men have children at his age and older.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Well he just happens to be rich enough to have been able to stop work, but he is no where near the normal retirement age and isnt old. Many men have children at his age and older.


Again, so? He DOESN'T WANT a third child.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Again, so? He DOESN'T WANT a third child.


Again, she does. His opinion is no more important than hers.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Again, she does. His opinion is no more important than hers.


You can't stop, can you?

His opinion is more important, because he is the one who doesn't want another child.

Does not want another child.

They already have two healthy children. 

Sometimes you have to learn to be happy with what you do have (she does) instead of trying to force an unwanted third child onto your 50+ year old husband.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

Trying to get pregnant in your 40’s is hard, both physically and emotionally, even with medical intervention. STAYING pregnant is even harder. The odds of miscarriage are so much higher and dealing with pregnancy loss is so painful - more so when one of the couple didn’t really want it in the first place. BTDT. The potential emotional fallout of that needs to be addressed.

You are in a really tough spot because either path could kill your marriage. I think the path that will cause the least amount of heartache for all and give you both a better chance of saving your marriage is to solidly put your foot down on “no.” Not just a verbal “no” but a vasectomy “no”.

I had pregnancy losses at 38, 42 and 43. My reasons for wanting another baby were selfish but the grief I have experienced at their loss is very real and isn’t just wiped away because I wanted them in my life for the “wrong” reason. I do think though that I would’ve suffered far less if I grieved losing the “idea“ of having another baby (for whatever reason) instead of suffering the actual loss.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The person who says NO has the final word, IMO. Just like deciding to have sex, whoever says no has the final word. Otherwise it's non-consensual and equivalent to rape, even in a marriage. Of course "accidents" can happen, or outright intentional deception. The only way to prevent such is for one or both to seek a surgical solution to negate the chances of an unwanted pregnancy, or to sincerely agree on this and act accordingly.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Well he just happens to be rich enough to have been able to stop work, but he is no where near the normal retirement age and isnt old. Many men have children at his age and older.


OK, so using your reasoning, if a guy has a rich wife should she be forced to have a kid at 40 just because "he" needs to have one?

The one who does not want another kid gets veto rights on the decision.

Ensuring the choice by vasectomy is wise.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

justme011235 said:


> The good news is the type of cysts they are, they will actually go away once she enters menopause. The bad news is that this is likely still about 15 years away if she follows the timing of her mother. The other potentially good news, entering a breast feeding cycle would also make the breasts go away, until the breast feeding is stopped. So a baby would mean 3 years (plus she could pump for a couple so 5 years on the outside) of a respite.
> 
> So after looking at various possible solutions: cyst removal, breast removal, surrogacy, and getting pregnant, she has chosen the last one and is pressuring me relentlessly to have that 3rd child.


A temporary improvement in your wife's health doesn't seem to be sufficient justification to create the lifetime commitment of a child. Aside from the problems with 40+ year-old-women getting pregnant and having a healthy baby, and not bouncing back like they did when they were younger, etc.

I think she's just renewing her pleas for that third child and thinks she can coerce you by expressing it in a way that if you don't go along with it, it seems like you don't care about her health. It's manipulation, pure and simple.



justme011235 said:


> Last piece of background: she is 40, I am 51. We have done well financially so that isn't an issue. With some great luck in business I have just retired. Unfortunately I have been killing myself with 80+ hour weeks for the last decade and suffer with a very bad lower back (surgery a few years ago that still nags at me). My wife stayed home from work while the kids were young, and is now back part time, mostly to fill the time the kids are at school.
> 
> <Sorry for all the background but wanted to make sure you had the full picture>
> 
> ...


You are 51. Do you really want to be doing late nights, diapers, scheduling your life around naps and feedings, etc, when you're probably enjoying slowing down, and the idea that your older children will soon be old enough that you don't need babysitters? Do you really want to have a kid still in high school when you want to retire? Do you really want to be mistaken for your kid's grandfather everywhere you go together? Is it fair to the kid to have a father who likely won't be able to keep up?

No, it is not fair to you at all, nor to the potential child. And look, she's already pressuring you by making it about her own health, just as I predicted above. She's trying to make you feel guilty.

A hysterectomy sounds like it would accomplish the exact same fix for her, only it would be permanent.


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## FizzBomb (Dec 31, 2013)

Don’t do it.
The one that doesn’t want a child has the final say.
She’s being manipulative and blackmailing you with ‘killing the marriage’ if you don’t agree.
I would seriously consider getting yourself fixed so that no oopsie pregnancies occur.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Again, she does. His opinion is no more important than hers.


What you say if the roles were reversed and he was wanting another child and she didn’t?

Would you be telling her to suck it up and crap out another kid because lots of women have babies later? 

Double standard much????


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Dr Laura Schlesinger used to get questions about this on her radio show back in the day. 

Her response was that Mother Nature is always telling women to pump out another kid because you never know when the next drought or plague will kill off the ones you have now. 

But Mother Nature doesn’t care about your age or your finances or lifestyle or energy level or your desire to do mid night diaper changes and feedings or dealing with chicken pox or colic.

The urge of many people to have another child is simply not rational. It’s not logical and has nothing to with how another child would fit into their lives or lifestyles. 

We were given a thinking brain so we can override our primal instincts when they don’t make sense.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Absolutely no! My last child was born when I was 34.....I had so many issues and it was so much harder on my body.....I was healthy and fit. Trying to have a child at your wife's age and then going thru the pregnancy would be one rough road I am afraid. Love my kids, love my family and all but life for me really did not begin until my children were on their own. I could then do what I wanted on my time clock and it wasn't about pleasing/ coaching/ being an example/ providing. You have that to look forward to. Having a child this late in the game would mean that you may never see those days and if you do, you will be too elderly too enjoy them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I have had cyst surgery when I was 21. Fifth surgery is going to be less dangerous than her having a kid. You'll be 70 when the kid is 20 and you'll still be needing to support the child. Probably this will do in both of your backs. And there's always the risk of diabetes with pregnancy. 

Having the cysts removed is also going to be less expensive overall than a third child. 

Of course those are the logical points and don't address her emotional desire for a third child. By the time she's 50 chasing around a 10-year-old will wear her out. 

I imagine if you have any kind of insurance it will pay for cyst removal. It's too bad there's not a pill you can take to make sure she doesn't get pregnant, but if she needs to go ahead and get these cysts out, either way it can be a waiting game to see if she gets pregnant. 

And then it's only a temporary fix. She'll still need to have the cysts out when they come back. Is there anyone she listens to more than you that you could get to talk to her such as her parents?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Dr Laura Schlesinger used to get questions about this on her radio show back in the day.
> 
> Her response was that Mother Nature is always telling women to pump out another kid because you never know when the next drought or plague will kill off the ones you have now.
> 
> ...


I think the above is what is taking place and she is simply using the cyst as an excuse. It’s a red herring. 

Lots of middle aged women get an irrational drive to squeeze out one more kid. 

It’s our lizard brain telling us to reproduce one more time while we still can.

And what will that lizard brain tell her once this kid is a couple years old??? It will tell her to try for one more - rinse and repeat. 

Let me put a different twist on this primal drive thing. I’m a 56 year old man. My lizard brain is screaming at me to bang every 20-something female I see while I am still able to perform -

- should I do it just because my basic instincts are telling me to?

I also want to crush the skull of my next door neighbor that lets his dog poop in my yard. Should I crash into his house and do that because my primal territorial instincts are telling me to???

This cyst thing is just an excuse and self-justification to try to rationalize something completely irrational. 

Just say no. 

If she she argues, point out there are other treatments available for the cysts that don’t involve diapers, puke, colic, immunizations, mid night feedings PTA meetings and new soccer shoes every season. 

Then go work on something in your shop.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

This is the one issue in a marriage where there is no compromise, when both parties are not fully on board with the idea of having a child, the answer is no.

My husband and I met later in life, I was 38 he was 43. We did start trying about a year/18 months into our relationship but it just wasn't meant to be  We stopped when I turned 43 and he was 48. I was emotionally destroyed at the constant disappointment, including one miscarriage and just couldn't go through it again, and he was feeling he was getting too old.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> What you say if the roles were reversed and he was wanting another child and she didn’t?
> 
> Would you be telling her to suck it up and crap out another kid because lots of women have babies later?
> 
> Double standard much????


I would hope that its something that they could sit down and discuss. What amazes me is that he knew from right at the start that she wanted three children, but ignored it hoping it would go away. If he didnt want three children then why marry a person who did? Why marry a woman so much younger? Why not even communicate about it in all these years?Its come back to bite him now. 
It seems that neither cares about what the other wants, just what they want.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I think the above is what is taking place and she is simply using the cyst as an excuse. It’s a red herring.
> 
> Lots of middle aged women get an irrational drive to squeeze out one more kid.
> 
> ...


I highly doubt she would want more after the third. 
My then husband and I said we both wanted 2 children.When our second was about 3 I felt strongly that I would like another one.I just had one brother and had always wanted more siblings. Fortuntely he agreed and we never regretted it. I never wanted a forth, and we couldnt afford it anyway and didnt have the room for another. The OP seems to have lots of money so they could hire help with the baby and house if it happened. 

I fear that unless one of them changes their mind this will end their marriage. He will be resentful if they have another(till he falls in love with the child at least) and she will deeply regret it and feel resentful if they dont. I so wish they had sorted this out years ago.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Wow, I'm blown away at the number and quality of these responses. And so quickly! Thank you all so much. What an amazing forum this is!

I will be back to answer questions and provide additional detail for who those requested soon.

I should point out 1 error in assumptions that seems to have come up in the tread, which was that when we married I was aware she wanted 3 children. I didn't find that out until after the birth of out 2nd child. It appears she was also unaware that I didn't want 3. Yes, we should have clarified that with each other earlier, and given how type A we both are, it is amazing that it didn't come up sooner. I think we were both just using our own reference points for how big a family was (mine was 2 kids and hers was 3) and just assumed when we talked about building a 'family' that it was that for each of us? I can only surmise at this point.

For the record, she now says that she DID clarify with me from the beginning that she wanted three, but that is not at all how I recall it. This is another example of how our perspectives and recollections have fallen out of sync, in a large part related to the wedge that this issue has driven between us.

Back soon with more. Again thanks so much for all the energy invested here.

Your time and thoughts are very much appreciated.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

justme011235 said:


> Your unbiased thoughts please. Not just looking for support for my situation here. Would really like to know what you think.


Well, Being human I can't offer an "unbiased opinion" But I'd be happy to give you a biased one.
I'm 54. My religion clearly teaches that the decision of when and how many children to have resides strictly between the married couple and that no outside opinion (from family, church or community or tradition is relevant in that decision) But my church is also full of people who think that contraception is a sin and that people should have as many children as happen. I came from a family of 5 biological children and 4 adopted children (all adoptions after I flew the nest, all teenagers). my Wife's Family of origin had 6 children. We have 4. aged 20 - 32. No Grandchildren. 
So with that background, my biased thought at an age very close to yours is that I don't want to welcome a new cat into my family. And *AND, *I absolutely believe this is only between you and your wife. And that you both have to agree to that decision.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

<Again thanks so much to all for your comments. So very much appreciated. And all please feel free to comment but I would really love to get as much female perspective as possible if at all possible please>

Some quick answers to comments ( I skipped the questions that were well discuss in the tread or seemed somewhat rhetorical)...

Comment: "What does this mean, about _"killed your marriage"_ ? You didn't really say anything about that."
She feels very strongly about this issue, and isn't know for having the ability to change her position on things. So for the past few years pretty much all other things have been viewed through the filter of me being the guy who won't give her the 3rd child she 'needs'. Basically from my side it feels like I can't do anything right, as this gets pointed out to me regularly. This environment has put a lot of strain on the marriage. It has come out in the heat of arguments that my selfish response to her 'need' for a 3rd child shows that I don't care for her enough to prioritize her medical needs (in sickness and in health) and so I have 'killed the marriage'. Is it dead? I hope not. And I think she does too, at least some of the time.

Comment: Does she have fibrocystic breasts? Is she trying to control it with diet? 
Yes, although I am told a type that is very bad, and yes she is trying to control with diet. No alcohol, focused diet etc.

Comment: "I would hope that its something that they could sit down and discuss."
Oh there has been lots of discussion. She is a debate pro, and can get VERY nasty. It unfortunately brings out my debating and nasty side too. But I think I have done a pretty amazing job of keeping my head, but she is very good at finding and hammering my buttons. We have also seen 3 different marriage counselor. See a comment below for more details on that.

Comment: "What amazes me is that he knew from right at the start that she wanted three children, but ignored it hoping it would go away. If he didnt want three children then why marry a person who did?"
This was addressed in the prior post. But for those that might not have seen it, somehow we didn't clarify the number at any point along the way. It is amazing to look back on, but we both feel strongly that we were clear on our position. The only thing I can think of is that we referred to a 'family' and for each of us that meant something different. 3 kids in her family and 2 in mine. But yes, this is couples class 101 - talk about these things head of time. Or you might find your self so desperate that you are asking for input from a forum of (very kinds) total strangers!

Some really useful points that came out include the fact that there is a chance that even during breast feeding the cysts might not go away. That isn't something that I considered. Also it was pointed out that breast feeding, even with pumping, wouldn't really much cut into the possible 15 year wait until the cysts go away with menopause. Which brought up the issue of a possible desire for ADDITIONAL kids, which she says isn't the case, but I'm not totally convinced. Also twins, and other pregnancy and delivery related health risks are all really good points.

Next steps?...

In summary it seems that there are 2 main points of feedback (feel free to comment again if I have misconstrued in any way). First, that it's not a need, it's a want and that the medical condition isn't enough justification for a 3rd child UNLESS we both wanted one (which I don't). Several also seem to recommend that even then it might not be the best idea. And second is that I should put my foot down, and this is where my next request for feedback come in. Put my foot down and do what?...

Leave? (or insist she does?) I can't see doing that to my kids, at least not for a number of years. Yes they can tell that we aren't the most loving couple (between ourselves) but the chaos of split houses doesn't seem like it would be good for them at all. Most of the literature says outcomes are not good for kids in that situation. And as much as money is pretty solid, we happen to live in one of the most expensive places in the world for living expenses. Neither parent would be able to afford a 3 bedroom house with a yard like we have now, so a reduced experience for the kids. Plus, I do love her.

Option 2: Get snipped. While I have to say I have thought about that before (others have suggested), but of course can't imagine what that would do to any chance of trust in the relationship going forward.

Option 3? Any suggestions on where to go from here? We have already talked about it many times, for years. We have seen 3 different couples counselors. The discussions usually went okay in helping us connect, but often turned to helping my wife understand what was behind the 'need' for a 3rd and she then labelled the approach or the counselor as BS and disengaged. There are more details here, but it captures the gist. 

The problem is, where it is at right now, is that it seems like she is trying to make me into the bad guy husband that she wants me to be, so she can leave with a real reason. Finding fault in everything I do, and being generally cold and distant. It is somewhat livable because she is the master of passive aggression, so it's not flagrant to the kids or others, but basically a cold war day to day. At times it warms up, but usually when she is in the futile part of her cycle. Most recently she is saying that I am disrespecting her in how I treat her and trying to be controlling too much day to day. She may have some merit in that I am currently going through a bit of an identity change in going from a very busy pharma start-up vp to Dad about the house. I may be applying my organizational approach after 30+ years working to our day to day life, but I'm working on 'chilling out' a bit more. Have even taken up meditation. As far as where to go from here, I guess maybe I have unintentionally adopted a long term weather the storm approach? Will she she stop pushing at 45? 50? And what damage will the relationship (not to mention my self worth) have taken by then? Maybe then the kids will be better ready to deal with split parents?

I wanted to end my comment with a brief note about why I am posting. I guess there are a few reasons. In hind sight, I think I may have lied a bit in my first post about not, at least a little bit, looking for justification of my position. But I don't think I wouldn't be human if that wasn't at least part of the motivation. But I say part, and really I think it's only a small part. I am genuinely looking for input, experience and idea as to ways help this move forward. And feedback from women who may have been in similar situation, and how they navigated through.

What kills me is we could have such an AMAZING situation. We have been blessed with 2 amazing adorable kids. We are now lucky enough to never have to work again (so long as we don't do anything financially stupid) so have so much opportunity and flexibility to experience life together as a family. One of the things that was in discussion before things came to a head on this issue was actually taking 2 years to sail much of the world. I have been sailing my whole life and we have the skills, resources and abilities to pull it off. What an incredible experience that would be for the kids!!! But instead we are at a standoff. And just can't seem to find any way past it.

Thanks again for reading. Any thoughts or feedback is very much appreciated.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Sorry just occurred to me another reason I am posting. It REALLY helps to just dump this stuff out on a page. I have learned a few things about how I am seeing this and its impact just by formulating the posts. Also just seems to blow off the steam a bit. Very cathartic. Thanks again for reading.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

justme011235 said:


> We have seen 3 different couples counselors. The discussions usually went okay in helping us connect, but often turned to helping my wife understand what was behind the 'need' for a 3rd and she then labelled the approach or the counselor as BS and disengaged.


I kind of think your W was right about that. _"What's behind that"_ is a bit of a knee jerk response from therapists. (I am one.) The urge to have babies is about as fundamental an urge as there is, like eating or breathing, and to imply that it's just a cover for something else could seem insulting. Especially if they didn't equally challenge what's "behind" your 'need' to stop at two. Which, by the way, does need looking at, although not necessarily on here.

As a person, I tend to take the view that you shouldn't be having a child unless *both *parents are enthusiastic about the idea. But as a therapist, I'd have to keep that opinion to myself.



justme011235 said:


> The problem is, where it is at right now, is that it seems like she is trying to make me into the bad guy husband that she wants me to be,


Yes. Her anger now comes out in all sorts of acted-out ways, trying to illustrate to you how she sees you. She is trying to hold up a mirror, but she's actually holding up a caricature.

I think leaving, or getting snipped without her enthusiastic agreement, is a pretty passive-aggressive way to handle it.

One possible stance you could take, just one of many, is _"we can try, but not until the relationship is sound, and that means no more sniping, ever"_.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I gave you a clear example earlier in the thread...Your situation almost identical to my brothers..IN fact as I reread your longer last reply, is scary identical....She relentlessly hounded him for the third child...He gave in, and Now, he's almost 55 years old, they are divorced. the kid was and is somewhat difficult, and all of the other crap that goes along with that...You seem to be afraid to stand up for yourself...You have two healthy kids...She is being selfish and entitled and I can't see why you think it's any different...She is whining and not taking anything you feel into consideration...

Think about it this way as well...It's obvious that there are some issues in your marriage or you wouldn't be on here discussing it...I think it goes beyond this third kid...Have the third kid and the issues(just like my brother) don't just disappear...It will be something else...So ask yourself...Do you want to blow up your life at 60 years old with a little kid to worry about on top of it?? Because that can easily be what unfolds...In fact I'd even say it's likely that is exactly what is going to happen...

Look....If you guys met late in life and she always wanted kids and you didn't have any, then my stance would be entirely different...You have 2 kids already...Why does she feel the need to trample and disregard your desires and wants to just add to what you already have? Does that not sound a little crazy to you?? 

It's almost like you are willing to give up anything you want to not make her upset...If that's the case, then fine just knock her up and give in...You wont be the first and certainly wont be the last guy to just allow their women do dictate all the terms of their lives...there are millions out there...

Oh...and here is one other thing to consider....Maybe she does really want this third kid...But is it at all possible that she may be checked out(as you inferred) and is thinking about this as a way to make sure she can spend the next 20 years of her life(basically taking her to retirement age) not having to go to work and create her own independent life, but instead making you pay for all of it in a divorce settlement?

Sorry, but after all of what you posted, you would have to have rocks in your head if you go ahead with this....That's just my .02


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

-Getting snipped without her knowledge is guaranteed Armageddon unless there is some way that you can make 100% sure she never finds out. I really can’t say enough bad things about that idea. 

- you don’t have to leave unless life with her becomes abusive or simply unbearable. But you would need to understand that if you stand your ground and refuse, she would be within her right to leave you. I think it would be dumb on her part at her age, in her state of health and with two kids already in tow, but it would be her right to try to find someone or even do artificial insemination. (Just make sure divorce is completely finalized before she does artificial or you may still be held legally and financially accountable for child)

- otherwise if you are both determined and both have your heels dug in, I see no win-wIn here. One of you has to lose. 

Since you can’t control her feelings or her reactions, this will boil down to what is the lesser of two evils for you?

Will you be better off with your own resentment and disappointment that you will be spending your golden days changing diapers and cleaning up puke and sitting out in the cold at the pee wee soccer games all over again?

Or having her be the bitter and resentful one making you out as the bad guy and possibly even leaving you and finding some other chump that is so desperate for poon that he would father her next child(s) and would presumably also be involved in your current children’s lives. 

You’re going to have to pick your own poison on this one and determine which will have the least toxic effects.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I’m just gonna throw this out there because someone has to say it - at your age and your financial situation, if you did divorce, you would be well able to date women in their 30s and 40s that don’t want children (or at least not any more) and would just want to enjoy life and not be carrying this dark cloud over them all the time.

Even with child support and possible alimony, you would still be able to live a good life without this hanging over your head. I’m assuming you have access to some shark lawyers that would be able to keep your spousal support to a minimum. 

Despite the common church and societal narrative - kids are not harmed by divorce itself. They are harmed by abuse, neglect, abandonment and being in an environment of chronic hostility.

They are not harmed by two involved and loving parents that happen to live in two different homes. Unless one of you is planning on abusing, neglecting or abandoning them after a divorce, they may be sad and inconvenienced by divorce until they adjust, but they won’t be actually harmed or damaged by it.

One could make the argument that they are in a more toxic environment now. 

In a way your wife has to be making them feel kind of crappy that she is putting all of you through this to have another child. Is she going to make them feel they aren’t good enough?


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Have you thought of going to counseling together to resolve this issue?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AVR1962 said:


> Have you thought of going to counseling together to resolve this issue?


he said they have seen 3 different counselors.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

BTW, not including college, the US government estimates it will cost you about $250,000 to raise a kid to age 18. Add on college costs? Double it.

You just retired.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Any one (counselor or husband) who doesn't agree with her is crazy and wrong. When you are dealing with that level of conviction there just isn't any where to go. This is dangerous.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Oldshirt, I did see your post about your brothers situation. It really hit home. Pretty much my worst nightmare. Thanks for all your input by the way.

And yes, when I'm in a dark mood I do see a possible scenario where she has already decided to leave but wants the 1 more kid and for me to pay for it. And unfortunately where we live the ebb and flow of the legal balance in divorce settlements is currently highly tilted to the Mother (not my opinion, what I have heard from Mothers who live here). So it would be a pretty easy situation to pull off from her side. Not sure she is there yet, but it does play pretty hard on my own 'trust issues'. So, no real access to shark lawyers, and as far as I know support would be at a maximum here.

Apparently even a contract (like a living pre-nup) that would be a pre-arrangement that I wasn't responsible for support of the 3rd if there was divorce would not hold up in court. She can agree to it, but it is likely a future judge would say it was 'cruel and unusual' or something like that. I would never consider this anyway, because if I am bringing a life into this world I am going to support it, but as a thought experiment it doesn't work anyway.



> One could make the argument that they are in a more toxic environment now.


Agreed. That is something I worry about a lot. It is my biggest concern right now. 



> In a way your wife has to be making them feel kind of crappy that she is putting all of you through this to have another child. Is she going to make them feel they aren’t good enough?


Yes, that is possible, but she has them fully engaged as cheer leaders for number 3. They both are really on board with it - although it's not likely they know what it really means. My whole reason for retiring is to be able to be available to them for the next decade. A time in their lives that is so huge, and in mine that will go by so fast. They are going to be outa hear in what will see like a blink. I don't want to be that tired, distracted cranky Dad that the first years of life can produce. I know one could say, well then just don't. Fix your attitude and be a great Dad to all 3 of them. But I have to admit I am tired now. I can't imagine being back in the baby fog again.

And while I am not worried about meeting someone, and as you say likely younger (I am often told I look 40) with no plans for a family, that is SO different from the path that we were on. It could have been story book awesome. I just can't believe she would through it all way because of the need or a 3rd baby. My mind is blown.

Another thought for feedback to everyone out there (so glad to have this anonymous way to get peoples thoughts), what about gathering people she loves and trusts to confront her for me (or with me?). Kind of a 'intervention' of sorts. As it happens, this issue has come up with a few of her close friends and I and have even had a brief discussion with her closest family. They all think she is crazy (they don't put it exactly like that, but you get the idea) to have pushed this as far as it has gone, and she would be even more nuts to let the marriage go over it. Although they aren't totally surprised, as she is know for almost never backing down. This would be risky I know, but as you see there are few options at this point.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It sounds like she has a difficult personality, and is currently being quite horrible to you. Why she thinks being horrible to you (cold, passive aggressive, dragging the existing kids into it as cheerleaders for a third child when you two are not in agreement about the issue-- that's pretty NUTS) will make you want to breed with her again is beyond me.

Counseling has failed.

I have no advice. Well, I do, but I'm sure you don't want to hear another suggestion for divorce.

I know a family who had two great kids and a happy family unit of 4. The wife pushed for a third child, when the kids were a bit older like yours are. Her husband didn't want a third child. They had a third. He has behavioral and learning issues. A good deal of their energy was diverted to the third child. They used to be happy, having fun experiences. Last time I saw them all of them seemed unhappy.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

justme011235 said:


> Oldshirt, I did see your post about your brothers situation. It really hit home. Pretty much my worst nightmare. Thanks for all your input by the way.
> 
> And yes, when I'm in a dark mood I do see a possible scenario where she has already decided to leave but wants the 1 more kid and for me to pay for it. And unfortunately where we live the ebb and flow of the legal balance in divorce settlements is currently highly tilted to the Mother (not my opinion, what I have heard from Mothers who live here). So it would be a pretty easy situation to pull off from her side. Not sure she is there yet, but it does play pretty hard on my own 'trust issues'. So, no real access to shark lawyers, and as far as I know support would be at a maximum here.
> 
> ...


I have no idea why another poster suggested to you that it would be easy to find a women in her 30's who would want you. Firstly, its completely irrelevant, you are a married man with responsibities and committments and children, secondly, the vast majority of women in their 30's want children or already have young children, and thirdly, despite what a few slighly deluded men here think, most women in their 30's are just not interested in a man in his 50's especially one with young children.
With reference to your children, of course most of them will naturally love another sibling, most children do. My 2 older children were delighted with their younger sister, and I have always wished that my parents had had one or two more children, and in fact my mum said later on that she regretted not having another child(she had two). Children just dont think that if you want another one means you dont want them, or that they arent enough. 

I have read nothing in your posts to suggest in anyway that you wife has decided to leave you, so please just dont listen to these weird notions that some here try and persuade you of to shake the foundations of your marriage. Please stop any thought of lawyers and courts, you are in a committed marriage and nothing you said about our wife points towards her wanting out. Oh and BTW children definitely DO suffer in a divorce, I have met MANY of them who did. Their whole foundation is shaken. People who are divorced like to think they dont, but its just not true.

Anyway I do hope that you somehow manage to sort this out, but right now it seems neither of you are really thinking of the other at all.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

You shouldn't bring a baby into an unstable (marriage) situation. Not willingly. 

This situation sounds unstable. 

Babies are one of those things you can't compromise on. Either both parties are 100% fully on board with the idea or you don't go through with it. 

I am a little shocked/dismayed that she has involved your existing kids in this. Even if you were both on the same page, there are so many things that can go wrong in general and especially at her age... who knows if she's even fertile enough to have a baby now? What about miscarriage? Birth defects? Fertility treatments if needed? I have kids of similar ages to your existing ones and I just can't imagine getting them excited about a possible sibling when it could be such a difficult process. Not to mention, I seriously doubt either of them understand what a baby really entails. 

Are you willing to sacrifice the marriage over this? Is she? 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

OP, here's a woman's perspective - the 40's can be a difficult age for women. There is such an emphasis on youthfulness in our society and a woman staring down the 40's can begin to feel invisible and replaceable. You made that very point with stating that you could easily get someone younger which honestly made me cringe for your wife. The fact that you're even thinking ahead to a divorce over this makes me wonder if your wife isn't picking up on a lack of commitment to the marriage on your part. This along with her concerns about possibly losing her breasts at some point and her biological clock kicking away is most certainly adding to her sense of urgency that it's now or never for number 3. This is not to say at all that you should agree. I think it would be the absolute wrong thing to do unless you can be convinced that another child would be a blessing in your life. 
The other issue I haven't seen addressed here (unless I missed it) is the much higher risk to mother and baby in a pregnancy after 40 and the stress that can put on a marriage. I had my last child one month shy of 40 after 2 pregnancy losses due to chromosomal abnormalities. It was devastating to me especially and contributed to severe marital problems from which we still have yet to fully recover. Of course, I have no regrets about having my son, nor does his father. But it hasn't been easy, that's for sure. Has your wife considered this as a possibility? Have you talked about it together? Having another child isn't always just a matter of let's get pregnant and then 9 months later you get a healthy baby. She needs to face up to that risk. 
My advice is to have a heart to heart with her to let he know that as far as you are concerned, the door is shut for #3. She will be miserable for a while and so then will you. Give her the space to grieve and she'll come to terms with it eventually. If she can't then you do have a much bigger problem.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

michzz said:


> BTW, not including college, the US government estimates it will cost you about $250,000 to raise a kid to age 18. Add on college costs? Double it.
> 
> You just retired.


I often hear these large amounts thrown about how much it costs to raise a child, they are complete nonsense. I had three and they cost at a guess less than 10% of that amount. Second and third children cost even less as you have all the stuff from the first one.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I’m just gonna throw this out there because someone has to say it - at your age and your financial situation, if you did divorce, you would be well able to date women in their 30s and 40s that don’t want children (or at least not any more) and would just want to enjoy life and not be carrying this dark cloud over them all the time.
> 
> Even with child support and possible alimony, you would still be able to live a good life without this hanging over your head. I’m assuming you have access to some shark lawyers that would be able to keep your spousal support to a minimum.
> 
> ...


Why are you trying to undermine his marriage like this???? He is not free to even think of dating another woman even if he could find one interested, he is a married man with young children. He has responsibilities and committments, and children very much do suffer when their parents break up. I have seen so much of it. Older children who get depression, young ones who start wetting the bed, who need counselling. I have seen it in families I know and have known. Its heartbreaking.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

justme011235 said:


> <Again thanks so much to all for your comments. So very much appreciated. And all please feel free to comment but I would really love to get as much female perspective as possible if at all possible please>
> 
> Some quick answers to comments ( I skipped the questions that were well discuss in the tread or seemed somewhat rhetorical)...
> 
> ...


You admit here that you have known for several years that she wanted another child. I dont get why you didnt just have three some time back, before you got into your 50's and retired. Having 3 quite close together earlier wouldnt have impacted your life much more than 2 and you wouldnt be in this situation now.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

OP, there's never a guarantee that your wife won't leave you so unless your marriage is already having a lot of problems ruling out another child because someone MIGHT leave is ridiculous.

Having said that it can happen. I'll be honest here.....i had my younger son when I was already planning to leave their father because he was a nasty abusive drunk. While he did agree I'm sure he didn't know i was planning to leave. But guess what? Our younger son is now 17 and his father is crazy about him. Of course he hasn't paid support in years, but that's another story. I wanted my older son to have a sibling and I wanted them to be close in age and have the same father, which they do. They are very close.

The bottom line is that while he didn't know i was planning to leave he also didn't mind another child, and he was only 33 at the time.

At your age you have a legitimate argument that you just don't wamt to raise kids into your 60's. End of story. Have you actually approached your wife from this standpoint? Have you shown empathy and acknowledged her issues while stating that you just don't feel like you can raise another child at your age? Because that's a valid argument and if she steamrolls that then SHE is extraordinary selfish. She's already got 2 kids.....lots of plans don't work out. Lots of people plan for kids and end up with none.

My boys (19 and 17) are thick as thieves and their father and i get along OK these days, but the truth is that if be hadn't been such a nasty piece of **** I might have had more. But it wasn't to be and I'm blessed with what I have. Besides....I'm enjoying the freedom I now have with 2 basically grown kids. I have a lovely bf and i don't have to plan things around child care, and my boys like their private time anyway.

And as has been pointed out you don't know what you'd get. My aunt and uncle had 3 girls and they just HAD to have a boy. They finally did with #4 in their 40's and he's got all kinds of development and mental issues. He's probably 21 now and will never live independently. My uncle told me that while he loves his son if he'd known what kind of life my cousin would have he would've been happy with his 3 daughters.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Why are you trying to undermine his marriage like this???? He is not free to even think of dating another woman even if he could find one interested, he is a married man with young children. He has responsibilities and committments, and children very much do suffer when their parents break up. I have seen so much of it. Older children who get depression, young ones who start wetting the bed, who need counselling. I have seen it in families I know and have known. Its heartbreaking.


Why are you trying to undermine his right to reproductive freedom and agency over his own paternity?? 

Why are you trying to pressure him into indentured paternity just because she wants another one?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> I often hear these large amounts thrown about how much it costs to raise a child, they are complete nonsense. I had three and they cost at a guess less than 10% of that amount. Second and third children cost even less as you have all the stuff from the first one.


Do some basic math and figure it out. You cannot spread college costs across other kids. And private schools for primary and secondary education likewise.

If your kid goes to the hospital ER, it is one kid being charged.

If your kid eats a cheeseburger, etc.

Look, I was from a huge family--10 kids in my household growing up.

I'm very familiar with making do. However, as an AVERAGE statistic, the government stats are spot on.

No way is it possible to provide fully at 10 percent of the figures I saw.

$250K divided by, say, 20 years. That's $11.5 a year. You want to tell me you only spend $1.5K a year on raising a kid?

No way.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'll be honest here.....i had my younger son when I was already planning to leave their father because he was a nasty, abusive drunk.
> 
> While he did agree I'm sure he didn't know i was planning to leave.
> 
> ...


@justme011235 if you are still following this thread, read the above very carefully and even read in between the lines a little bit. 

I don’t mean this as any kind of dig against lifeistooshort because she is saying this to help you and her post has great merit.

But read the above very carefully.

If nothing else, it shows you what women will do when they want another child and how little regard they have for the men they use to get them. 

By her own words, her ex was a drunken piece of s—t that she was planning to leave without his knowledge and yet she got his sperm out of him because she wanted another child...... then left. 

She even justifies it by saying he agreed to it (but would he have agreed to it if he knew she was leaving?????????????) 😮 

And she justifies it by saying they are buddies now. But did he want another buddy then knowing she was on her way out? 

That speaks volumes. 

I knew stuff like this goes on every day but seeing this in black and white from a respected poster and moderator here has still left me pretty rattled. 

All I can say is watch your back Jack. You are up against forces that mere mortal males can’t fully comprehend.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> You admit here that you have known for several years that she wanted another child. I dont get why you didnt just have three some time back, before you got into your 50's and retired. Having 3 quite close together earlier wouldnt have impacted your life much more than 2 and you wouldnt be in this situation now.


When it comes to kids, math is not linear. 

When it comes to money, time, energy, hassle etc associated with kids 1+1 does not equal 2. It equals somewhere around 425.

When you add +1 it equals somewhere around 3,262.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> @justme011235 if you are still following this thread, read the above very carefully and even read in between the lines a little bit.
> 
> I don’t mean this as any kind of dig against lifeistooshort because she is saying this to help you and her post has great merit.
> 
> ...


You're reading too much into this and perhaps projecting. While it is true I was planning to leave he still had opportunities to change things. I didn't actually file until my younger son was 2 and in that time I asked for MC (he refused), told him i was unhappy (his response was that i was lucky to have my life), and even told him he drank too much (he told me it was none of my business).

No woman actually wants to raise little kids by herself, so this idea that men are somehow helpless victims subject to our whims is ridiculous. My life could've been much easier if he was actually interested in investing in our marriage but he wasn't. So my making plans was me realizing that there was a good chance it was going to come to that, but he could've changed it.

Without getting into a lot more details he got a lot of what he wanted from me, and I got two boys who he also enjoys and loves to show off.

We both did ok.

Sorry if that triggers you.

And FYI, I did not say we were "buddies". You said that.

I said we get along ok. He has his life and I have mine, but we get along fine where the boys are concerned.

Furthermore, if OP's wife was that intent on just "getting his sperm" they wouldn't even be having this discussion. I see that he is not only adamant about no more kids, he also hasn't gotten snipped. I conclude from this that birth control has been on her, so she could've easily just stopped taking it instead of having a discussion. Since you seem fond of pointing out what "women" do to victimize men, it seems to me that plenty of men who squawk about their reproductive freedom also leave birth control to the woman.

So since she hasn't gone behind his back that tells me she's not simply out to extract sperm from him. They are married and otherwise seem to have a nice family. She wants another child, and he has perfectly valid arguments against it. 

"Watch your back jack"? What kind of statement is that? She's his wife, not some stranger he met last week.

Children, like sex, are implied in the marital contract and how many is to be negotiated.. When you are married you are not free to have children with others, just like sex.
This is why i suggested the approach I did for him.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

One small thing -- if she is SO miserable to you and argues at the drop of a hat, if the argument is NOT true, then just tell her "When you can talk with me rationally and not screaming insults, we can continue this...." and walk away. Do NOT continue the coversation and be her punching bag. Nobody deserves that. You can control this aspect -- YOUR actions, not hers. Don't let her continue to brow-beat you.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> OP, there's never a guarantee that your wife won't leave you so unless your marriage is already having a lot of problems ruling out another child because someone MIGHT leave is ridiculous.
> 
> Having said that it can happen. I'll be honest here.....i had my younger son when I was already planning to leave their father because he was a nasty abusive drunk. While he did agree I'm sure he didn't know i was planning to leave. But guess what? Our younger son is now 17 and his father is crazy about him. Of course he hasn't paid support in years, but that's another story. I wanted my older son to have a sibling and I wanted them to be close in age and have the same father, which they do. They are very close.
> 
> ...



To the bolded, he can't do that because he wants a 2 year sailing adventure around the world. He can't just say no because he wants something big and life changing too. He's asking her to sacrifice two years of her life to participate in his hobby AND give up on the third child she wants.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Why are you trying to undermine his right to reproductive freedom and agency over his own paternity??
> 
> Why are you trying to pressure him into indentured paternity just because she wants another one?


I dont want their marriage to end because of people here putting thoughts of divorce into his mind and making him think that he will get some 'hot' 35 year old, he wont and he isnt free to anyway. I hope that whatever happens their marriage will carry on despite some here trying to undermine it.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

OP, I've read this whole thread. Correct me if I'm wrong but the takeaway is your wife wants another child to help with a medical condition by breastfeeding? That's quite a gamble and frankly, an asinine and selfish reason to bring a life into this world.

If that's incorrect, you and/or the others here can correct me.

I am extremely concerned how she is currently treating you because you aren't on board with her life-changing plan. What does that say about your marriage?

Do NOT get a vasectomy without her knowledge. And do not involve her friends and family in this--you called it an intervention of sorts. Terrible idea.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

michzz said:


> Do some basic math and figure it out. You cannot spread college costs across other kids. And private schools for primary and secondary education likewise.
> 
> If your kid goes to the hospital ER, it is one kid being charged.
> 
> ...


I am in the UK. We have the amazing NHS. Dental care is also free for children. Nearly all children go to non fee paying schools. You can cheaply buy baby equipment and children's toys, bikes etc. You can easily buy second hand clothes and many people pass their childrens clothes along to others. We have free schooling till 18, and if the person wants to go to uni there are student loans they can get, with parents helping if they can. Believe me, you can bring children up quite cheaply.

Anyway its not really relevant, but I wanted to point out that those figues given are nonsnese.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

lucy999 said:


> OP, I've read this whole thread. Correct me if I'm wrong but the takeaway is your wife wants another child to help with a medical condition by breastfeeding? That's quite a gamble and frankly, an asinine and selfish reason to bring a life into this world.
> 
> If that's incorrect, you and/or the others here can correct me.
> 
> ...


I agree, getting that op secretly will end the marriage for sure, as well as being terribly deceitful. I cant believe people are even suggesting that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I dont want their marriage to end because of people here putting thoughts of divorce into his mind and making him think that he will get some 'hot' 35 year old, he wont and he isnt free to anyway. I hope that whatever happens their marriage will carry on despite some here trying to undermine it.


No one here has said anything that he hasn’t already considered. 

In an earlier post I specifically said he did not need to initiate a divorce himself, but that she would be within her right to divorce him if he did not concede to another child.

The vast majority of the divorce talk on this thread has been about the possibility of HER divorcing him, not him divorcing her. 

My reference to dating other women is simply reality. He would have other options were his wife to divorce him. With his age and financial position he would not have trouble dating other women.

And just for reference, you are the one that threw in the word “hot.” I did not. ‘Hot’ is in the eye of the beholder. 

So I think your concerns of people encouraging him to divorce are unfounded. The references of divorce have been in response to possibility of her divorcing him.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Anyway its not really relevant, but I wanted to point out that those figues given are nonsnese.


Ummmm... What was the point of it when you yourself said it wasn't relevant? 

Is the OP in the UK? 

If he is then perhaps your points may have merit.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I agree, getting that op secretly will end the marriage for sure, as well as being terribly deceitful. I cant believe people are even suggesting that.


He was the one that brought up the possibility of getting snipped. 

No one here has suggested he do it without her knowledge.

Everyone has discouraged that.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Luminous said:


> Ummmm... What was the point of it when you yourself said it wasn't relevant?
> 
> Is the OP in the UK?
> 
> If he is then perhaps your points may have merit.


Yes it's irrelevant. First of all, no OP isn't in the UK. Secondly, the thrust of OP's problem ISN'T: my wife wants a third child but I'm unsure how we can afford it. 

ISN'T.

AT ALL.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Luminous said:


> Ummmm... What was the point of it when you yourself said it wasn't relevant?
> 
> Is the OP in the UK?
> 
> If he is then perhaps your points may have merit.


Just pointing out that the amounts of money bandied about by people there and here are nonsense, in answer to a poster who was saying how much havng a child costs.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> He was the one that brought up the possibility of getting snipped.
> 
> No one here has suggested he do it without her knowledge.
> 
> Everyone has discouraged that.


One poster suggested he do it. I answered him by saying that was a sure way to end their marriage.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I'm going to agree with other posters saying don't do it.

It's not about the money, it's about both having the same goals in your marriage.

You don't have a great relationship with your wife. You already have gone to therapy 3 times and it didn't solve your issues. You are not loving towards each other in front of the kids. You don't want your children to grow up with divorced parents but it seems it might be an option once the kids grow up. You planned to retire soon. 

It's a disastrous idea to bring another child into a vulnerable relationship. 

It doesn't really matter if you knew or not her wishes of having 3 kids from the beginning. People change. Nothing is set in stone when it comes to marriage. Many promise to be loyal to their spouses and then years later they are cheating and breaking up their vows. 

If you both don't reach an agreement, then you are going to decide if you stay or go. There's going to be a lot resentment because both of you are going to sacrifice your wishes for the other. I


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> My aunt and uncle had 3 girls and they just HAD to have a boy. They finally did with #4 in their 40's and he's got all kinds of development and mental issues. He's probably 21 now and will never live independently. My uncle told me that while he loves his son if he'd known what kind of life my cousin would have he would've been happy with his 3 daughters.


OP, please look up the correlation between advance paternal age and autism. Bring your wife to a genetic counselor even if a miracle happens and you agree to a 3rd child. Neither of you realize that the chances of you both having a healthy, normal third are not nearly as great as they used to be. Is your wife prepared to raise a kid who will always need to live at home and be cared for?

That said - what's the worst possible outcome for you? Is it getting a divorce? Is it dealing with another kid you don't want who may have serious physical and mental health issues? Think of what your absolute worst scenario is if you do or don't agree to a 3rd and then do everything in your power to prevent it from becoming a reality.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> I am in the UK. We have the amazing NHS. Dental care is also free for children. Nearly all children go to non fee paying schools. You can cheaply buy baby equipment and children's toys, bikes etc. You can easily buy second hand clothes and many people pass their childrens clothes along to others. We have free schooling till 18, and if the person wants to go to uni there are student loans they can get, with parents helping if they can. Believe me, you can bring children up quite cheaply.
> 
> Anyway its not really relevant, but I wanted to point out that those figues given are nonsnese.





Diana7 said:


> I am in the UK. We have the amazing NHS. Dental care is also free for children. Nearly all children go to non fee paying schools. You can cheaply buy baby equipment and children's toys, bikes etc. You can easily buy second hand clothes and many people pass their childrens clothes along to others. We have free schooling till 18, and if the person wants to go to uni there are student loans they can get, with parents helping if they can. Believe me, you can bring children up quite cheaply.
> 
> Anyway its not really relevant, but I wanted to point out that those figues given are nonsnese.


Maybe so in a socially-subsidized country. In USA? Figures are realistic, Of course, you may want to factor in the high taxes in the UK in your equation. Nothing is free!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

michzz said:


> Maybe so in a socially-subsidized country. In USA? Figures are realistic, Of course, you may want to factor in the high taxes in the UK in your equation. Nothing is free!


Living costs such as rents and house prices are far cheaper there, as is the cost of living. Gas prices for example are far lower. If those silly prices they quote are right, only the very rich would be able to have children which of course isnt the case.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Living costs such as rents and house prices are far cheaper there, as is the cost of living. Gas prices for example are far lower. If those silly prices they quote are right, only the very rich would be able to have children which of course isnt the case.


Silly prices??? Really??

Income is different here but it doesn't mean we have money trees in our backyards and pay little for housing, gas, food, health insurance. You don't have a clue, do you? What area of the states are you referring to that the cost of living is so low prices seem silly to you?

I'm middle class and believe me, my area is kinda expensive. I don't have extra money to waste. And I want to provide my kids not only food, clothing, and education, but extra curricular activities, vacations, etc.

But above all those silly things, the guy doesn't want another child and his wishes should be taken into consideration. If both don't agree, well sh*t, they might have to divorce.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Female here: You've had many opinions and I hesitate to bring up something else as it sounds like y'all have been thorough in studying this problem. I know someone who was told they could go through chemical menopause with injections that suppressed female hormones--not a form of birthcontrol, but to save her from surgery. Would this be a viable solution for your wife, you? I also know many women with dense breasts and cysts--it is not uncommon.

There are men and women who changed the number of children they wished for for various reasons over time. She may receive her value in life through motherhood--it would be an intrinsic motivation we have not considered.

Even then, the damage caused by y'all's dissension over this may be too great. If she is unfairly blaming you for all frustrations in her life, is that likely to change? It does not sound like she is or ever has been a proponent of compromise. Now she seems to think she has a trump card favoring her almost 'obsession?' 

You seem to be newish here and I do not know if you've read us for a while. Each of us has our own rather strong beliefs and that often creeps into our responses--that is natural. For what it is worth, @Laurentium is one whose advice I find to be wise and balanced......


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> He was the one that brought up the possibility of getting snipped.
> 
> No one here has suggested he do it without her knowledge.
> 
> Everyone has discouraged that.


Quick clarification, this was actually suggested in the thread. I only brought it up in summary of earlier posts. Not that I would consider it anyway. But it does speak to how desperate the situation has become. She has also suggested she is considering getting a sperm donor. Not sure how serious it was, but as you can image I was not exactly thrilled to hear that. 

Sorry for lack of feedback from me. I can only get on here infrequently but will be back soon with more thoughts. Again thanks so much to all that have provided comments.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

No woman should put a gun to ANY man's head over this....Think about this....Let's say it was the guy that wanted the third kid and was adamant and she didn't...People would be telling him to shut his trap and be happy with what he already has...I know, the standard reply is he doesn't have to carry it for nine months...Well...he's gonna have to "carry" it in many other ways for the next 25+ years when he should be kicking back and no longer dealing with all that...

Quite frankly, what the OP has already said about this situation has already shown that if she isn't willing to "settle" on the blessings that she already has, then it's clearly evident she's entitled and selfish....I wouldn't nearly be as tolerant as he is being...And while I don't claim to be any kind of medical professional, I am finding it very hard to believe that you would get a consensus among physicians that having another child at over 40 is the absolute best way to handle the problem that she has...Call me a skeptic here, I just find that hard to believe...

I'd add that the poster that suggested you can raise a child to independence in this day and age with a loaf or bread and a donkey is just nuts...Just the necessary electronic devices kids need now will cost untold thousands over the course of that time...Add in braces, other uncovered medical expenses, etc...Kids cost money....and time.....and involvement....All of the things that people pushing 60 don't necessarily have(or in the case of money, perhaps would rather be using for things like retirement expense and personal life desires like travel and other items), I mean, heaven forbid a guy would like to get something back from all the sweat and effort of working all these years...\

Do whatever you want, but the fact is that because you haven't put your foot down on this, it's just brewing and stewing....She thinks you will eventually just give in...She just has to continue to nag you and break you down....And that's exactly what is happening now..So unless you want this to continue, you have to get firm on it...You know its not what you want, so don't be like a parent that is wishy washy with a kid that wants a toy or something....Just tell her it's not happening....period..Sure, then it may be the end of the road, but do you really want the road to continue like it is now? Or if you have the kid, be left with the resentment over it?(remember my brothers situation)....They got divorced anyway....so in his case, while I doubt he'd ever admit it publicly he probably is deep down thinking he should have never agreed to the third child...He's 54 years old...Divorced(not a nice one, btw, lot of acrimony and a lot of $$$) with his life flipped upside down...One kid already done with college and one with 2 years left.....And a rambunctious 8 year old boy....and probably another 15-20 years of child support.....Great.....

So...if nothing else, think about how limiting this is gonna be if you do this and it doesn't all end in harmony...You will have essentially just about ended any possibility of having another life beyond this one...And sorry to some that have suggested it....To think that a man that has some assets/resources and looks good and is fit has limited options with women at that point is nuts...In fact, unless you were a complete stud in your teens and 20's, its probably the best time in your life to attract a wide variety of really good and attractive women...They are out there in droves...and practically none of them want any/more kids...They want a lot of sex, though...lol...That's thinking ahead, I get it, but just throwing that out there for those that suggested a guy would be done at that point....No way...


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The sperm donor comment she made is ludicrous. If it were me, that would be the end of the marriage for me. 

What it says is what you want doesn't count at all. So if she went and got a sperm donor, would she expect you to raise the child and be it's daddy? If not, then what she really is saying is that you'll divorce, because how can you be married and not raising the child together? Also, if you are married and another man isn't on the birth record (and he wouldn't be if he's an actual anonymous donor), you'll be on the hook for child support, because it's a child of the marriage.

If it was just an empty threat, that's snake-like.

Honestly, it sounds like this marriage is done, either way. 

The ironic part is that at 40 she might not have been able to get or stay pregnant. At that age it's a toss up.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Livvie said:


> The sperm donor comment she made is ludicrous. If it were me, that would be the end of the marriage for me.
> 
> What it says is what you want doesn't count at all. So if she went and got a sperm donor, would she expect you to raise the child and be it's daddy? If not, then what she really is saying is that you'll divorce, because how can you be married and not raising the child together? Also, if you are married and another man isn't on the birth record (and he wouldn't be if he's an actual anonymous donor), you'll be on the hook for child support, because it's a child of the marriage.
> 
> ...


Going off what has been said, it sounds like the OP's wife is playing with fire... And at 40, she still has about 40/50 years of living to do... 

Playing the 'short game' and not considering the long term consequences


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

pastasauce79 said:


> Silly prices??? Really??
> 
> Income is different here but it doesn't mean we have money trees in our backyards and pay little for housing, gas, food, health insurance. You don't have a clue, do you? What area of the states are you referring to that the cost of living is so low prices seem silly to you?
> 
> ...


Expensive is all relative isnt it. I am going by American friends I have and what they tell me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Expensive is all relative isnt it. I am going by American friends I have and what they tell me.


Isn't this line of discussion irrelevant and a threadjack at this point?

Yeah it is.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Expensive is all relative isnt it. I am going by American friends I have and what they tell me.


Different areas, different prices. I wouldn't be able to live in NY City or LA with the income I make in the area I live in now.

I used to have a lot more extra money as a SAHM in MO 5 years ago. 

Minimum wage in my area is $7.25 an hour and the average rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is about $1,400 a month.

Living expenses and salary are not really relative. I don't know how people making minimum wage in my city can afford rent. Childcare is astronomical!


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Expensive is all relative isnt it. I am going by American friends I have and what they tell me.


Well, born and raised American in California here.

The numbers are spot on accurate. I don't know your friends who tell you it is not.

I've raised two kids to adulthood and can honestly tell you that it is expensive.

The prospect of providing that same quality of life AFTER retirement?

Not possible for me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

A sperm donor?!

I’ve read some crazy **** here over the years but that takes the cake. Sounds like brinkmanship to me but you never know, You need to make sure she knows that child would be 100% her responsibility because you won’t be in the picture. And make sure you’re divorced before that happens or you could be on the hook.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Isn't this line of discussion irrelevant and a threadjack at this point?
> 
> Yeah it is.


Cost is an issue, but not in the top 5. Top 10 maybe.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

The more I read here, more concern I have. How do you live like this? Never knowing what to expect? Sperm donor is the kind of THREAT that comes back to bite--HARD. She does not sound emotionally stable to me at this time.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hold up. Sperm donor? I'd be out. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

justme011235 said:


> Quick clarification, this was actually suggested in the thread. I only brought it up in summary of earlier posts. Not that I would consider it anyway. But it does speak to how desperate the situation has become. * She has also suggested she is considering getting a sperm donor.* Not sure how serious it was, but as you can image I was not exactly thrilled to hear that.
> 
> Sorry for lack of feedback from me. I can only get on here infrequently but will be back soon with more thoughts. Again thanks so much to all that have provided comments.


Well, that is certainly the type of unilateral decision-making that would end a marriage to me. That would be so many times worse than you having a vasectomy behind her back. It speaks of deep deep issues of selfishness that threaten the very foundation of the marriage.

Having a child is a HUGE lifechanging decision, even if it's #3, and should be made by agreement by both partners in the marriage. If one partner is willing to take steps to make that decision unilaterally, that inherent selfishness has probably already manifested in other ways to weaken the marriage. It can't possibly be a great marriage, and the repercussions are very likely to end it. Bringing a baby into an unstable marriage does not improve the situation.

SEEK counselling. Not just for this issue, but for improving communication between you in general. Make her stick with it. Don't make promises like you'd consider a third child if she went to counselling but frame it as "honey, our marriage is clearly in deep trouble over this divide between us. We need help navigating it."


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

If I recall, they already went three times. Is that right?


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Livvie said:


> If I recall, they already went three times. Is that right?


Yes correct. Over time, specifically for this issue 3 different counselors.

I should clarify on the "sperm donor" comment, and not to defend it, but it was made in exasperation that I was not acquiescing (during a counseling session), and it was phrased that she "had considered it". I put forward that it was a threat either way, and she felt that no, it was a 'consideration', not a threat. I think more than anything it was put forth to underscore her steadfastness in the need for a 3rd, in order to deal with the medical issue (again not a sound solution). Of course the news she had even considered it backfired, in that this news is what confirmed the instability of the marriage and that no way could I bring another child into it.

And again thanks to all for the incredible feedback.

Changing the focus a bit there hasn't been any comments on this, which I would love to hear back on from one of my earlier posts: 
/...what about gathering people she loves and trusts to confront her for me (or with me?). Kind of a 'intervention' of sorts. As it happens, this issue has come up with a few of her close friends and I and have was even brought up by a member of her closest family (with me in private). They all think she is crazy (they don't put it exactly like that, but you get the idea) to have pushed this as far as it has gone, and she would be even more nuts to let the marriage go over it. Although they aren't totally surprised, as she is know for almost never backing down. This would be risky I know, but as you see there are few options at this point. Thoughts?/

I should underscore that other than for this issue, she is a great mother and not a terrible wife. Yes the marriage needs serious work, but I am willing to go there, and if this issue was behind us, I believe it is possible to salvage. My biggest concern is the impact the kids. While they clearly don't see a loving relationship example, for the most part they also don't see a bunch of conflict (as mentioned most of it is in passive aggressive format, and in our drag out 'discussions' after they are in bed (where it is clarified how selfish and self centered I am for not going along). She obviously has some kind of deep seated issue to resolve that is driving this, and so individual work by her and a professional would be an important element to salvaging things. I know it looks really bleak, but I still have hope. We just need to get it clarified, by basically all of her closest relationships that the path she is on just doesn't make sense for anyone. 

Thoughts?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I dunno...That may just piss her off Royally(some type or intervention.)

My position on it stands....Just say you aren't doing it...Tell her that you will go to the end of the Earth and spare no expense to help rectify her medical condition, but you aren't on board with bringing another kid and all that would entail into the world when you are well into your 50's....It's too late...The ship sailed....

Just out of curiosity, how does all of this affect your sex life?? Maybe you mentioned it earlier in the thread and I missed it, but I would be curious about that....I could easily see her shutting off that as some kind of retaliatory move to not wanting to cave in to her demand on this....

On an anecdotal level, most people don't realize what happens to them physically as they age until they experience it themselves...I know for myself(and I am very fit/athletic) the changes that came from when I was 40 to 50 were pretty significant....Attitude, energy level, even mental sharpness...Unless she is a Wonder Woman type, she is probably underestimating her physical shortcomings at her age and has not thought that part of it through...I know for my former sis in law, that was the case...She would often complain about lacking the physical stamina to deal with a toddler...It was compounded by the fact that the kid had issues (ADD, hyperactivity and some learning disabilities that required a lot of parental involvement)...I mean developmentally at 5 or 6 years old, he was about at the same level my daughter was at 18 months and he was still using a diaper...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Don't be selfish...  give your lovely wife the third child, spare her 5 years of suffering and enjoy life. You are blessed to be financially sound and to have great kids and a beautiful wife... you are 51, not 70. I've had a few (kids, lol) and never regretted it. They are a blessing.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Don't be selfish...  give your lovely wife the third child, spare her 5 years of suffering and enjoy life. You are blessed to be financially sound and to have great kids and a beautiful wife... you are 51, not 70. I've had a few (kids, lol) and never regretted it. They are a blessing.


It's like you didn't read the thread at all and all of OPs feelings about this.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> It's like you didn't read the thread at all and all of OPs feelings about this.


I have read it and I am well aware of the OP's feelings... you know, sometimes you can be "un-selfish" and give the love of your life what she wants... it doesn't have to be me me me all the time... it's quite simple, really.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I have read it and I am well aware of the OP's feelings... you know, sometimes you can be "un-selfish" and give the love of your life what she wants... it doesn't have to be me me me all the time... it's quite simple, really.


It's funny because the same could be said of her. They have two healthy children already. OP is in his 50s and absolutely doesn't want another child. The wife exhibits poor treatment of her husband. If anyone should be happy with what she has and consider her spouse's feelings, it's her.

In another thread you are cheerleading for it's okay to not have sex with your spouse for 18 months -- because children---, and on this thread, cheerleading for having a third child despite the husband absolutely not wanting this. Instead of supporting men, and their well-being inside marriage to women who are not taking them into account as people who MATTER, you advise being basically subservient to them.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> It's funny because the same could be said of her. They have two healthy children already. OP is in his 50s and absolutely doesn't want another child. The wife exhibits poor treatment of her husband. If anyone should be happy with what she has and consider her spouse's feelings, it's her.
> 
> In another thread you are cheerleading for it's okay to not have sex with your spouse for 18 months -- because children---, and on this thread, cheerleading for having a third child despite the husband absolutely not wanting this. Instead of supporting men, and their well-being inside marriage to women who are not taking them into account as people who MATTER, you advise being basically subservient to them.


I wish you stopped twisting my words to serve your own agenda, whatever that is. I never said in the other thread that it's ok not to have sex for 18 months, only that there might be several reasons for the wife not wanting sex. Please go and read it again. As far as this thread is concerned, where do I say the OP has to be subservient to his wife? Only to make her happy because she has health issues... it's a little gift he can give her. Again, you twist everything.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

justme011235 said:


> Changing the focus a bit there hasn't been any comments on this, which I would love to hear back on from one of my earlier posts:
> /...what about gathering people she loves and trusts to confront her for me (or with me?). Kind of a 'intervention' of sorts. As it happens, this issue has come up with a few of her close friends and I and have was even brought up by a member of her closest family (with me in private). They all think she is crazy (they don't put it exactly like that, but you get the idea) to have pushed this as far as it has gone, and she would be even more nuts to let the marriage go over it. Although they aren't totally surprised, as she is know for almost never backing down. This would be risky I know, but as you see there are few options at this point. Thoughts?/


I don't think she seems like the type of person for whom ganging up on with friends and family would be effective. Not the classic 'everybody gathers in a room and tells her she's being stupid' sort of intervention, at least. As we're seeing in politics and other hot issues, stubborn people rarely ever have epiphanies that their opinion is wrong; they just double down on it and ignore any contrary evidence. Whatever you do, it can't be confrontational.

My suggestion would be to take advantage of her stubborn nature. She's got to come to the solution herself and think it was her idea.

Next time it comes up, you could just, once again, list all the reasons you have against the third child

you're old, you would have less energy for parenting
you're retiring, there would be less income flexibility and you had hoped to be able to relax more
it's unfair of her to manipulate you by saying this means you don't care about her health
other solutions exist that she isn't investigating because she's focused on this one
it's unfair to the existing children to suddenly have a much younger child in the house
it's unfair to the third child, to have older parents
*it's a lifetime commitment that is not guaranteed to alleviate her health problem and would only do so for a couple of years if it worked - and is she going to want #4 after that??*
it's irresponsible to have a child when both parents aren't fully on board
it's dangerous to bring a child into an unstable marriage
a baby is more likely to have health issues when the parents are older (tell her she'll be called a 
GERIATRIC mother by medical staff, see how she feels about that!)
etc. all the reasons you've already listed. but be careful as she may take it as an opportunity to rebut every point you make.
And then suggest that she do her research on other solutions, instead of dismissing them in favour of latching onto this one. Suggest counselling for her to help resolve this obsession that's clouding her judgment (but don't say it that way!). Help her do research, but present anything you find as a vague possibility that SHE needs to find out more about. "Hey honey, I heard about this option, let's add that to the list of things to look into and consider."

If it feels like HER own research, she's more likely to embrace the idea she settles on, and not feel like she's caving into YOUR solution. Remember what I said above - don't be confrontational about it. Be collaborative. Your marriage should be you and her against her health issues, not you against her.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I wish you stopped twisting my words to serve your own agenda, whatever that is. I never said in the other thread that it's ok not to have sex for 18 months, only that there might be several reasons for the wife not wanting sex. Please go and read it again. As far as this thread is concerned, where do I say the OP has to be subservient to his wife? Only to make her happy because she has health issues... it's *a little gift* he can give her. Again, you twist everything.


It's SO FAR from a little gift. It's not like coming home from work with a trivial bouquet of flowers. Embarking on a lifetime commitment you don't want is the opposite of a little gift.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> It's SO FAR from a little gift. It's not like coming home from work with a trivial bouquet of flowers. Embarking on a lifetime commitment you don't want is the opposite of a little gift.


maybe... I would do it...obviously, he doesn't love his wife enough. He would do it for her, otherwise, especially given her health issues. She could have a 5 year break from it. You are a cynic, albeit hopeful. What do I expect?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

michzz said:


> Well, born and raised American in California here.
> 
> The numbers are spot on accurate. I don't know your friends who tell you it is not.
> 
> ...


I have raised three, 6 of those years as a single parent. 2 of my children are at present raising their own children. When I hear people in the UK and in the USA quoting these sky high figures I laugh. They are way above the actual cost unless they go to very expensive fee paying schools and have designer gear and expensive holidays abroad.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> maybe... I would do it...obviously, he doesn't love his wife enough. He would do it for her, otherwise, especially given her health issues. She could have a 5 year break from it. You are a cynic, albeit hopeful. What do I expect?


Obviously she doesn't love him enough, if she won't honour his wishes to stop at two children. She could find a different, likely more permanent, solution to her health issues that doesn't involve forcing her husband to raise a child he doesn't want.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Obviously she doesn't love him enough, if she won't honour his wishes to stop at two children. She could find a different, likely more permanent, solution to her health issues that doesn't involve forcing her husband to raise a child he doesn't want.


My worry here also is that she isn't realizing that she already HAS two wonderful children. This focus on NEEDING a baby says to ME that the other two aren't enough to fulfill her. Kind of a crappy messages to the kids.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Your wife is determined to have another child. I can’t imagine that an intervention would accomplish anything other than to make her angry — and blame you even more.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

All of this strife she is giving you (and I'm still amazed she has roped your existing children into the issue, not a healthy way to parent). The chance of a healthy 40 year old getting pregnant every cycle is only 5%, with a 40% chance of miscarriage. I don't look up the stats on autism/disabilities/genetic defects at that age but they are exponentially higher, especially with your advanced age, as the father's age has an effect, too. 

It doesn't seem she is reasonably approaching any of this.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

justme011235 said:


> Yes correct. Over time, specifically for this issue 3 different counselors.......
> 
> Changing the focus a bit there hasn't been any comments on this, which I would love to hear back on from one of my earlier posts:
> /...what about gathering people she loves and trusts to confront her for me (or with me?). Kind of a 'intervention' of sorts.
> ...


I am hesitant to respond because my way of thinking is so very different from yours. An intervention (gathering folks on your side) would be one more intrusion into her life by a stubborn you leading a parade of nonbelievers. War!! If three counselors do not work, why do you think this will? She seems to believe she will eventually wear you down. Has this happened in the past?

Neither do I think she is a great mother and not a terrible wife, but you live with this and you seem to think so, therefore who am I to dissent??


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> I have raised three, 6 of those years as a single parent. 2 of my children are at present raising their own children. When I hear people in the UK and in the USA quoting these sky high figures I laugh. They are way above the actual cost unless they go to very expensive fee paying schools and have designer gear and expensive holidays abroad.


I never went abroad until after my children wee raised. No private schools for then, state colleges==no scholarships. My dime and theirs.

You really only say generalities you like, have you noticed? A working stiff such as myself provided for his family in an expensive area. The cost of living not wearing second hand clothes and actually eating three-squares a day requires money, dinaro, a farthing or two. If it is not subsidized by state taxes it is on a person. A retired person particularly is less equipped to do so.

Anyway, it is less of a money issue for the OP, but rather, a time of life issue. I'm out.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno...That may just piss her off Royally(some type or intervention.)
> 
> Just out of curiosity, how does all of this affect your sex life?? Maybe you mentioned it earlier in the thread and I missed it, but I would be curious about that....I could easily see her shutting off that as some kind of retaliatory move to not wanting to cave in to her demand on this....


Very sparse at this point. Neither of us are much in the mood. Plus I did some research and have figured out how babies are made, and the 1 for sure way to avoid it. I do get the occasional invitation, but usually when she is fertile and often pass. Not ideal to say the least.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Ha ha. Have you been talking to my wife.?  This is exactly what she is trying to pass it off as, just a little thing, and that by not doing it I am selfish. And maybe if I hadn't already been through raising 2 kids I might just fall for that. It is funny how the Darwinian urge to procreate has an almost 'men in black' zap type memory effect on people. Not that our kids were bad or anything, but it was far from easy and that was over a decade ago. Can't even imagine what it would be like now. 

I know you are just providing the contrarian view, which is always useful to provoke thought, and is appreciated. The thing that gets me in such a 'give her what she wants' approach is there is a non-zero chance that either the baby or her end up with serious medical consequences. It would be so tragic to lose her. Even a divorce would be better because the kids would still have their mother.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

sunsetmist said:


> I am hesitant to respond because my way of thinking is so very different from yours. An intervention (gathering folks on your side) would be one more intrusion into her life by a stubborn you leading a parade of nonbelievers. War!! If three counselors do not work, why do you think this will? She seems to believe she will eventually wear you down. Has this happened in the past?


Ya you are probably right. I don't see an easy way for it going well. Would certainly be exciting though.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

The more you talk about your wife and marriage.... the louder “OH HELL NO!” screams inside my head.

Back when the oilfield was on its high I was making tons of money. The odd thing was my wife seemed to get more *****y and demanding with the more and more money I made. You see sometimes woman can get a little too comfortable. One day something clicked in my head and my entire perspective on things changed in that instant. I simply and calmly said , “I’m tired of you being unreasonable and should it continue at any time from this day forward.... we are done.” I’m not sure what part of tone or inflection was in my voice but we both knew what I said was real. From that day forward she has been a perfect princess and is a much happier person.

She is SH!T testing you hard. The problem is you haven’t developed the resolve in your mind to issue the ultimatum that will make her STFU.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr.Married said:


> She is SH!T testing you hard.


I don't think she is... she is just obsessed with having another baby, something she always wanted and now she is running out of time. This marriage is not going to end well.


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't think she seems like the type of person for whom ganging up on with friends and family would be effective. Not the classic 'everybody gathers in a room and tells her she's being stupid' sort of intervention, at least. As we're seeing in politics and other hot issues, stubborn people rarely ever have epiphanies that their opinion is wrong; they just double down on it and ignore any contrary evidence. Whatever you do, it can't be confrontational.
> 
> My suggestion would be to take advantage of her stubborn nature. She's got to come to the solution herself and think it was her idea.
> 
> ...


Yes. And thanks for the detailed thought. (To everyone!!!)

You are right with it needing to be her idea. And you are right in her desire to rebut every point. The councilors actually suggested not going down a list for that reason. 

At this point have gone off and done our research separately, mostly because when she first found the breast lump and dropped the need for a 3rd on me I was so taken aback that I had to collect my thoughts, and to do that I had to get some information. One thing that makes this a bit trickier is that she has a pretty extensive medical background, and is pretty quick witted. She has seen a number of specialists and swears that they ALL say the only real course of action is to have another baby. Now with my research it's clear this just can't be the case. We talked about going to see her specialist together to discuss it, but she keeps balking on booking anything and has reasons now why that won't work. So the research together ship has sailed.

More recently the shift has been to the risk of cancer, (dense breast have a higher risk of cancer, but no increased mortality) but, I'm not sure how this is associated with the 3rd child. I'm concerned that if I ask her to clarify she will bowl me over with distorted facts. Could be that breast feeding reduces the density by removing some of the cysts. (Others have pointed out the cysts may not be reduced by breast feeding). What has come out is that she is convinced that having another child is the only (suitable) option. Because for her anything that isn't that just isn't suitable.

But perhaps if I am able to convince her to see some of the specialist together, at least they might tell her that bringing a child into the world for this reason isn't the only option?


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## justme011235 (Oct 24, 2020)

Mr.Married said:


> The more you talk about your wife and marriage.... the louder “OH HELL NO!” screams inside my head.
> 
> Back when the oilfield was on its high I was making tons of money. The odd thing was my wife seemed to get more *****y and demanding with the more and more money I made. You see sometimes woman can get a little too comfortable. One day something clicked in my head and my entire perspective on things changed in that instant. I simply and calmly said , “I’m tired of you being unreasonable and should it continue at any time from this day forward.... we are done.” I’m not sure what part of tone or inflection was in my voice but we both knew what I said was real. From that day forward she has been a perfect princess and is a much happier person.
> 
> She is SH!T testing you hard. The problem is you haven’t developed the resolve in your mind to issue the ultimatum that will make her STFU.


You could be right. What I am coming to with all this input is that perhaps drawing a line in the sand is what it will take. But while I would like the marriage to continue, my primary concern is my kids. I can't see doing this to them at this age. Maybe when they are a bit older? I'm thinking that if I am to call her bluff, it could go either way, so I need to be ready to actually call it quits. 

BTW: How long ago was this calm chat?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

you will have a very grumpy wife for the rest of your life...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

justme011235 said:


> But perhaps if I am able to convince her to see some of the specialist together, at least they might tell her that bringing a child into the world for this reason isn't the only option?


That's a good idea, to go see the specialists together, very collaborative. Right now, you are not going to her appointments, and are only getting the information secondhand? Filtered through the person desperate for the third child? Tell the specialists that as the other potential parent, you are not on board with the third child permanent commitment that only creates a temporary solution idea, and ask what are the next recommendations. Like you, I can't believe they would recommend the third child as the best fix, since it would only help for a few years at best.

She could always go the Angelina Jolie option, and have a preventive double mastectomy. That would have far fewer long-term effects on your lives than a third child.

Sit her down and tell her frankly that if she isn't willing to look at other solutions you can both agree on, does she foresee the marriage ending over this? Will she divorce you so she can go have her third child with someone else?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

justme011235 said:


> You could be right. What I am coming to with all this input is that perhaps drawing a line in the sand is what it will take. But while I would like the marriage to continue, my primary concern is my kids. I can't see doing this to them at this age. Maybe when they are a bit older? I'm thinking that if I am to call her bluff, it could go either way, so I need to be ready to actually call it quits.
> 
> BTW: How long ago was this calm chat?


6 years ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> maybe... I would do it...obviously, he doesn't love his wife enough. He would do it for her, otherwise, especially given her health issues. She could have a 5 year break from it. You are a cynic, albeit hopeful. What do I expect?





jlg07 said:


> My worry here also is that she isn't realizing that she already HAS two wonderful children. This focus on NEEDING a baby says to ME that the other two aren't enough to fulfill her. Kind of a crappy messages to the kids.


Children dont see it like that at all. Most children are very excited to have more siblings. Plus we don't have children to fulfill us.


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