# I don't believe it can be a stronger marriage after this...



## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

I read this, but really...
How many really have a stronger marriage after going thru a betrayal?!? How many here can honestly say their marriage is better? Very few I bet. 
I seriously don't think it's possible.
It destroys everything. 
I'm reading a new book and I'm starting to think this is all a load of crap. I keep looking for some comfort, but there just isn't any. 
It will just be a damaged marriage with a bandaid stuck on top. 

We had a great family outing yesterday, but at the end of the day I still had that moment come over me where I thought...
I can't do this. I can't stay with him. How can I stay with someone who cheated and lied to me for so long? I don't believe or trust him. Then I remember my situation and the kids... Let's face it. I'm stuck. He really did a number on me.

At what point do you say, OK. He's being good now, I'll excuse the bad behavior from before? Cause that's really what it is. Then again, how do you ever really know if he's really being good? 

Do those thoughts ever go away? Thoughts you just can't do this. It was brief, but still came to me no less. And after a great day, too. 
I'm not so sure you don't always question, always doubt. They don't tell you the truth, they only tell what they think they have to. 

It's sick really. I tell my WS I know he's still lying, he denies it, we go back and forth. What's the point? Just tell the damn truth already. It's like he wins and I guess I just have to at some point decide I'll just have to accept he's not going to tell me. There's a part of my life I will never know about. 

I've been thinking alot about secrets... They really suck.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Yes, I can honestly say our marriage is stronger and healthier than it had been for years. We communicate extremely well now. We are great friends and lovers. We better manage our differences in how to deal with the kids. We have a greater amount of respect for each other. We don't avoid conflict while still being empathetic toward each other. We are more physically affectionate and have sex more often. We are 5 years post D-Day.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Thank you. I'm nine months out and although he seems to be trying, I still feel extremely skeptical. At what point do you think it was starting to be better? What changes did you make to get to that point?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I haven't posted on this for some time but here's the scoop

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation-stories/1383-when-enough-enough.html

I hope you find some of your answers here. It was a long road for us to recover but very happy we chose to travel it. Note the dates.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I think it all depends on whether or not the BS is willing to take back WS. Whether the WS committed to the reconciliation and resolved issues that cause them to stray in the first place. Whether it be childhood abuse issues, fear of abandonment, sexual addiction, and/or chronic selfishness.
If those issues aren't resolved then history is doomed to repeat itself.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

We are 2 years post d day and our marriage is far, far better than it was. My hubby is also a totally different person than the one who cheated. If he wasn't we wouldn't be together. He has done and continues to do everything a truly remorseful WS needs to do to keep the marriage together.

For me there was no AHA! moment. It's more of a diminishing of the hurt and pain. The times it bothers me are farther and farther apart all the time.

I will NEVER 'excuse' what he did.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

It depends on your healing, forgiveness AND HIS remorse.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Thank you Amp. I think you're a much better person than me after reading your thread! So it sounds like the passage of time and sticking with it is really a huge factor in your success? 

badbane, I think my WS is trying. He's trying to hold my hand more, be more involved with the kids... Stuff like that. I do think he has not come completely clean, though. I'm not sure at this point if he ever will. I know a part of him still wishes he never told me about the ONS. He was selfish, no doubt about it. That was his issue. Was this a deal breaker to me? Yes. Do I feel I'm in a position to actually go thru with that deal? No.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

hurtingbadly said:


> ! So it sounds like the passage of time and sticking with it is really a huge factor in your success?


Not just the passage of time but time for the relationship to build. It was a very long process for us but we had a very bad marriage for several years before D-Day. We were active in the recovery, not just letting "time heal the wounds" and hoping it all disappeared into the past. I think that's where many in R run into trouble. The core issues of the marriage are never addressed and history repeats itself. It is likely those issues had a hand in whatever transgression took place. I our case, I can see that pretty clearly. We knew we needed to build the foundation of the marriage stronger so we didn't end up at the same spot a few years down the road. Both of us unhappy. While the marriage is stronger on most levels, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't reflect on what happened and nearly happened. It helps to keep me focused.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

The problem with us is things weren't bad. We had been on vacation a week before his ONS... I have all these pictures of us happy. I thought we were best friends. We weren't fighting, we were intimate. He says it wasn't about me... One road block is he kept this from me for almost nine years so it makes it very hard for him to go back and tell me what was going on in his head. He was very drunk, that's about all I get. I think he was jealous of his friends out partying. As for my suspicions with his coworker? That's another story. He was getting pain meds from her. I dunno. I think he was just plain selfish.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

It's not possible to have a "stronger" marriage after an affair if you didn't have any pre existing problems. That creates resentment which in turn makes it very hard to "get over it".


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## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> Was this a deal breaker to me? Yes. Do I feel I'm in a position to actually go thru with that deal? No.



I don't really post alot, but felt i had to respond to this qoute. Man you nailed it here! This is me almost 2 years dday.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Complexity said:


> It's not possible to have a "stronger" marriage after an affair if you didn't have any pre existing problems. That creates resentment which in turn makes it very hard to "get over it".


Right... How do you get over something like that when you thought everything was fine? OK, so maybe he was just a selfish person. Can he learn from seeing my hurt and become unselfish? :scratchhead:

Even during the time in question with his coworker we were having sex, going out, taking trips...

I still feel he's keeping secrets, but is it even possible to say he saw what damage he did and woke up and realized he did not want to lose his family? I dunno... I'm having a mentally taxing day today.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

38m3kids said:


> I don't really post alot, but felt i had to respond to this qoute. Man you nailed it here! This is me almost 2 years dday.


UGH. You still feel this way at two years out. Do you feel like you got the complete story? Are you hanging onto doubts? Are things "normal", but you just have those moments you feel stuck? Just curious. I'm a stay at home home and I really feel like I screwed myself.


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## dingerdad (Nov 23, 2011)

Might be just me but I'm a little jaded if you've read my threads but here's what i think...
I think the best thing to do in these cases is split up and see if you find each other again. After an affair, even before R is tried I think a couple should be on their own. Truly learn what life is going to be like without each other before recommitting back to to the marriage. Learn what you had in your marriage and what was missing. Maybe give the couple a chance to date and fall in love again without the pressures of marriage.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I depends on whether the WS is truly remorseful and whether both people want to put in the effort necessary to create a better marriage. That being said I don't like to use the word stronger necessarily although I have used it on occasion. I think a better way to describe it is that our marriage went from an unconscious marriage just letting things coast to a conscious marriage where we both work every day to make our relationship better.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Our marriage is stronger, but keep in mind it never was a healthy marriage to start with. Once I stopped throwing my wife around and she stopped sleeping around it all seemed to come together for us.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Mine is stronger and healthier to a point of our interaction... this is true. We worked hard to make it so. Feelings and emotions tied around my WW are well... different. 

The hurt and scars of this trauma will always be there and I see it in the mirror whether I want to or not. It is because of those scars that I no longer get complacent with my marriage and deal with issues. Is this good or bad? Neither I think... it just is. 

A ton of things are different now, and it feels different too. Sort of like relocating where there are a lot of new things and feels, but a lot of the old stuff and feels are around as well. There’s a certain feeling of the surreal that will just knock you back every now and again. The sci-fi geek in me relates to this:

"There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call the Twilight Zone. "

Remember those? That is your new marriage. It has bits of old and new, good and bad, and everything else. There are new skills and ways to cope, hopefully better and healthier ones. New habits, new triggers, and just a surreal aspect to it all like you are on this path because of the affairs; you just woke up to this strange new reality. This path wasn’t the path you would have been on without that trauma. And well, it can feel better, like it’s a good path, and you enjoy it... but you will always feel like it wasn’t the path your should have been on.... it just is.


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## completely_lost (May 10, 2012)

I think if you had a crappy marriage and your spouse cheated on you and you decided to R then you may have a better stronger union. If you had a good marriage and your spouse cheated on you then I don't see how your marriage could be stronger. It also depends on the type of affair your WS had and for how long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I can 100% say that our marriage is better and stronger than it was before the affair. I was the disloyal spouse, my Dear Hubby was loyal--but in my previous marriage I was the loyal spouse and my exH cheated on me, so I know both sides of this coin. In order for there to be TRUE healing several things need to be happening. If even one is missing, it will not ever heal correctly:


The Disloyal Spouse has to end all contact FOREVER. They can not continue to work together or say "hello" on FB--never, ever, EVER speak to the OP again. 
The Disloyal Spouse has to work very hard at changing their thoughts about their spouse and about their marriage. In order to justify the affair most DS's will associate "spouse=pain or bad" and just because the OP is gone doesn't mean that association automatically stops. 
The Disloyal Spouse has to be willing to endure the discomfort of feeling like they are being watched and feeling vulnerable--because previously when they hid things from their spouse it may have felt more covered and less open but that feeling of hiding things is destructive to a marriage. The DS has to live with and get used to being open, sharing thoughts and feelings, and at first it feels like someone is always watching you. 
The Disloyal Spouse has to do a 100% "About Face" and show true remorse. This means changing what we do, what we say, everything. It has to be different because more of the same will lead to the same place. 
The Disloyal Spouse needs to fearlessly face themselves and what happened and delve into WHY they had their affair. The past is in the past, and it's no excuse for behavior in the present, but if there are issues from the past that are not dealt with, it may be the weak link that left you open to infidelity. FACE IT--don't run away. Clean up yourself and your side of the street.


The Loyal Spouse needs to accept that affairs don't happen in a vacuum. Yep the Disloyal is 100% responsible but it is probably wise to take personal inventory and see if there were ways they contributed to harming the marriage or making their spouse vulnerable. Just be open to some self-examination.
The Loyal Spouse needs to accept that it can never go back to "the way it was" because "the way it was" lead to adultery. Thus "the way it was" is gone--and the LS will probably need to grieve the loss of that innocence and then accept that they need to build something entirely new. 
The Loyal Spouse needs to demonstrate the ability to care about their Disloyal Spouse--and yes I'm aware of the irony, but if you can show your Disloyal that you are their FRIEND like a college roommate who wants to hear their feelings and comfort them, or hear their thoughts and share ideas....well the chances of reconciling increase proportionately. 
The Loyal Spouse needs to show their Disloyal that, yes, they have the ace in the hole by which they can win every argument, and, yes, they have the sword over the Disloyal's head...but the Loyal needs to show the Disloyal that they are willing to lay down that weapon and make the conscious decision to not pick it up again. This is related to forgiveness.


Both spouses need to acknowledge that their spouse is a fully-grown, adult individual and that their spouse's opinions and preference are JUST as valid as their own are. Thus, both need to move toward making decisions as a team, on the same side, mutually rather than "me vs. you" as if they are enemies.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Very good post AC. I'll add one more note from the BS or LS side of the equation. The BS has to hold the WS accountable for the affair. Too many times I've seen that the BS is too willing to forgive, too willing to forget, too willing to move on. And in the immediate aftermath of an affair even the most remorseful WS is all too willing to desire a quick and painless reconciliation. The WS must face serious and lasting consequences for the affair and the BS must demand and cultivate respect from the WS or it will occur again.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> > I read this, but really...
> > How many really have a stronger marriage after going thru a betrayal?!? How many here can honestly say their marriage is better? Very few I bet.
> > I seriously don't think it's possible.
> > It destroys everything.
> ...


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

No matter the battles a couple has to endure, the marriage is as strong as the effort both put on it. And let's face it, there's no marriage without issues, it's what it is. Telling otherwise is history rewriting.


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## 2ndchanc81370 (Jun 13, 2012)

I agree with Amplexor. I have seen better marriages, better relationships coming out from the most ugly betrayal. I believe that it all depends on the cheating spouse's willingness to change and your willingness to forgive. I understand how you feel and what you are going through. As I always say, the pain and all the ugliness dull in time. It doesn't have to take a looong time. Both of you have a hand at this. One thing is for sure. It DOES get better. The doubts, the suspicions, the pain ... you will not forget but it gets better.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Better?

Definitely better than when she was actively cheating on me. In my case, it's more or less academic at this point. That marriage is over, even in R. 

Get the point... Better? I would more correctly call it a "Do Over"".


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## sydney2005 (Jul 8, 2012)

I cried when I read your post. I am so glad I found this website. Suddenly I don't feel so alone knowing there are others out there in a similar situation.


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

Stronger, maybe maybe not. Depends completely on the couple.
You need to break recurring patterns or things could lay dormant for years and then BOOM. Again.

Check out bandit's story.


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## Jimbob82 (Jun 29, 2012)

I think this may entirely depend on the length of time you were married before 'it' happened, and how close you were in general beforehand?

As I feel it applies to the OP, I guess I can share my own story with you if thats ok:

I stupidly, stupidly had a 2-day online EA in 2010 during a very rough patch in our marriage. We'd fallen out over stupid trivial household and job things at the same time we were trying for a baby (my 2nd, her 4th), it was a bit stressful as we had difficulty to concieve (we did eventually, and he's now 18 months). The final straw was when my wife threw a hot frying pan at me across the kitchen as I asked her to 'chill out' during a meltdown. The kids were present, and she then said 'I wish you would just crawl off and die!!' 

I went to my parents for a couple of days, and chatted online with other women, just to see what it felt like to not be shouted at and put down. I did cyber sex with one of them - totally meaningless and spur of the moment. It was on a sports forum I used regularly (now never use), and my partner knew I used. My partner and I had then got together again and had some hot fun conceiving that baby! All seemed forgotten.

This was not the end though - Over a year later, she went on the laptop when I was at work, the page was left on that sports forum from the night before, and she saw my PM Inbox, still containing the sex messages - yes I know, I'm an idiot for never deleting them. I got home to be confronted by a pure ball of rage, I got the laptop smashed over my head, a glass thrown at me and beaten up harshly. I deserved everything I got. I then spent 2 nights at my parents again, she got 2 close friends round to ***** and smoke and vent, but the storm did thankfully settle. I told her how sorry I was, over the phone, how I only did it as I thought we were 'over' after the pan incident. She allowed me to return to the house, and we had a quiet, reflective reconcilliation. I apologised for my actions, and you know what? - She apologised for hers. We opened our hearts to each other more than ever (telling me how the dad of her other kids had slept with her best friend as one of the kids lay in an incubator on THE DAY of his premature birth). We both acknowledged we needed to improve for each other and the kids, and spend more time with each other. We then had 2 or 3 great months spending time actually making passionate love and also having spontaneous sexy fun. 

However, this initial reconcilliation euphoria has now worn off. My wife is capable of being fun, but this is very, very rare now, our sex life is dwindling to 2 or 3 'vanilla' times a month - in a good month. She lies there and I get my rocks off. She spends the whole evening on FB, and now when I try to initiate anything with her, she is unresponsive, and will sometimes mutter how she can't get over 'what happened before' - she gets mini panic attacks in large, hot shops, and has IBS, meaning she is scared to be anywhere where there are no immediate lavatories. I feel totally responsible for this and I am appalled that I contributed to shattering her world, after it had been shattered by so many other guys before. I want to delete our memories and go back to the way we were.

So, for the record, after your initial reconcilliation days when you do feel closer than ever, I don't know if anything can ever really be the same again when the damage is done? You tend to take most days as they come, there isn't much consistency in your marriage anymore, the foundations are cracked, and the affected partner can resurrect the pain anytime they want to - and they will drag it into the present whenever the hell they want to. It's always lurking in the background. I like the analogy of the band-aid over the marriage, and there will now always be doubts in the minds of the affected parties. For those that have managed to be stronger than ever and maintained it - I salute you.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

oaksthorne said:


> I have to agree. My marriage was all I could have asked for. I was proud of us, I thought we had the best marriage ever, and so did all of our friends and family, and then I found out about her, and it all turned into a lie. It will never be "better". Too much has been lost; too many lies told. We will limp along, maybe we will even manage to stay together, he wants that desperately, but better? No , I don't think so, not in this life.


Yep, totally relate. My WS was known as the family guy at work. What a joke.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Our issue is he can't tell me why he did it. He kept the ONS from me for nine years, now everything is a blur. We should have dealt with it then. Everything I read and even on this thread says he has to recognize why he did it so it won't happen again. We had been together over ten years, been married for eight, had two small kids, had just gotten back from a week long family vacation where I have tons of pics of us all smiling... :scratchhead: 

The new story (after trickle truth) I've been told is he was sharing a room with his coworker on a business trip, they got drunk at the after party, his coworker brought the model they had used back to their room, had sex with her while my husband was in the room "sleeping" on the bed, she then offers my husband a BJ and he accepts. Gross, disgusting... AWFUL!!! He just tells me he doesn't know why he went thru with it, he was just weak. He can't give me any other reasons.

The possible EA with his coworker years later... That's another story. It's vague and I have extreme doubts. All I know is I tested positive for HPV so at some point he had intercourse with someone other than me. 

Just typing this I want to text him not to come home. I mean, say he's sorry, showing me and our kids love and affection now... What does it matter if he's still keeping secrets from me? Can you really be remorseful and not come clean?


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## StandingInQuicksand (Jun 4, 2012)

I too had a good marriage before my H cheated. He tried the whole rewriting thing and sure, there were a couple areas I could improve upon (more compliments, more affection), but those areas weren't lacking entirely or even greatly and I wasn't checked out or mistreating him in any way. I always put him and the kids first and did everything with their happiness in mind. I was super mom, super wife, and contributed more than 50% of a comfortable family income.

I am also at the point where I don't think I will have a "good" marriage again. Yes, I can be there, I can find ways to make myself happy and be happy with what I have left...but it is less. I am settling if I stay in this marriage.

Like you, I still have many unknowns and uncertainties that I have the whole picture. I do think that my H has a strong likelihood to cheat again should the opportunity present itself. He is just too selfish not to choose himself over me or his family.

So you and I just need to decide if that is something we are willing to accept for some period of time (while kids or small) or forever (if we elect to commit to the marriage forever). 

I am pretty much heading for D...but I'm not in a rush. I have to put my kids first and with my teenager's issues and 2 smaller ones, I'm trying to use this calm-ish period to get my life and head together and plan my departure for some time in the future. I'm not miserable and I don't think he's cheating right now, so I'm not seeing a need to rush things.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I am going through the same emotions with this. After 10 months ago of finding out about his EA's, he is upset that I can't commit to R. 

Just yesterday, I decided on D. I told him I can't move past it. His reasons for everything does not make sense to me. I know he is withholding so much from me... but says I know everything.. 

I will be curious if me actually going to an attorney will change him,, I very much doubt it, but just curious..

Even if he would open up to me now, I feel it's "Too little, too late"....


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

StandingInQuicksand said:


> I too had a good marriage before my H cheated. He tried the whole rewriting thing and sure, there were a couple areas I could improve upon (more compliments, more affection), but those areas weren't lacking entirely or even greatly and I wasn't checked out or mistreating him in any way. I always put him and the kids first and did everything with their happiness in mind. I was super mom, super wife, and contributed more than 50% of a comfortable family income.
> 
> I am also at the point where I don't think I will have a "good" marriage again. Yes, I can be there, I can find ways to make myself happy and be happy with what I have left...but it is less. I am settling if I stay in this marriage.
> 
> ...


My WS knows I haven't forgiven him yet and it's been nine months. One thing I certainly didn't do was rush forgiveness. I'm not gonna say I forgive you when I really haven't. So it's not like he's really gotten away with anything. He knows I don't believe or trust him, too. 

I tell him I may not know, but I KNOW.

He's been very depressed, I would like to think he wouldn't do this to us again cause of all the pain his actions have put our family thru. He can see it. He can see the damage. I have to admit he does seem different than before, maybe more centered on the family as to himself. Giving the family a bit more than he used to. Then again, I trusted him before. He cheated when I thought things were relatively good, so there is no guarantee. Basically, he is a cheat and liar. Nothing changes that. 

I get what you're saying, though. We could get out a magnifying glass and maybe find little things here or there, but nothing to justify cheating. I was the wife and mom. I was devoted to my family. It comes down to him being selfish, wanting a quick orgasm at the risk of his entire family. It's disturbing when you really think about it.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Numb in Ohio said:


> I am going through the same emotions with this. After 10 months ago of finding out about his EA's, he is upset that I can't commit to R.
> 
> Just yesterday, I decided on D. I told him I can't move past it. His reasons for everything does not make sense to me. I know he is withholding so much from me... but says I know everything..
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry. Ya, as my dear friend tells me this far into the game there is no way he's gonna come clean. He's seen what damage what I know of has caused so why would he confess to more if he fears it will end everything? I get the too little, too late. I truly feel they never tell you the full truth, never. Only what they think they can get away with.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

I am pretty much there as well. WH says that I know everything - I know the big picture - I know there is more. I told him that I needed to know the answers to more or it will kill me to have to live with questions always pounding in my head. I have to. We are only 4 months into true R after 4 DDs. It is now or never, and if there is a never, there is no us. I can't deal with any secrets. Like I told him, he knows all of the answers and wants to lock all the bad away so he can try to move on from it. What differnce does it make to him if he lets me know too - that way I can move on and not ever wonder. I have mixed emotions. Our children will be staying with family for a few weeks, so we will finally have some alone time to hash through it. It can't be better if there are secrets or things the WS does not want to talk about because it is a bad memory for them. All the skeletons have to be released.


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## 38m3kids (Sep 29, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> UGH. You still feel this way at two years out. Do you feel like you got the complete story? Are you hanging onto doubts? Are things "normal", but you just have those moments you feel stuck? Just curious. I'm a stay at home home and I really feel like I screwed myself.


Wow.. so much to tell you.. feel free to send me a private message if you like and I'll be happy to share my journey.. Lots of ups and downs. i'm much better as a person, but i still have my very low lows from time to time.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Sure, in many ways our marriage is better because it was in very bad shape pre D-day (10 months ago). I had been contemplating leaving for years but that certainly wasn't because my husband was husband of the year. I tried to talk to him many times about my feelings and he shut me down or brushed me aside. Now, I've learned it was because he thought he had given me what I needed and therefore his lack of respect and anger and subsequent affair were justified. Apparently, he thought it was up to him to dictate what I needed from him and from our marriage.

Anyway, less than a week after he asked for a divorce (and unbeknownst to me 9 months into his A), he suddenly wanted to talk about our marriage and what I needed to be happy. He started reading books, being more open (aside from admitting to the A) but I feel duped now. He only cared about our marriage when leaving was on the table but didn't bother to tell me he was also trying to get rid of a bunny boiling skank who was threatening to tell me about their sleazy affair.

When D-day hit, it was already clear our issues were and had always been solvable so when he asked me if i could please at least try to reconcile it was harder to say no. But I know that if D-day had hit before we had started talking, I'd have been done. 

Also, thanks to a crazy OW and a dramatic D-day, our children are fully aware of too many details of his disgusting affair. And I had to witness my 7 year old son crying uncontrollably and begging me not to divorce his daddy. I have to live with that memory forever thanks to my foolish husband and his poor choices.

So apparently my husband needed to blow up our family, hurt our children and destroy my trust and respect for him to truly commit to a better marriage. 

So now, while we may talk more openly, we communicate our problems and issues with mutual respect, we make love more often, and he is kind and sweet and tells me he loves me daily, andnd I can definitely see and feel the difference between the man he was pre D-day, it still did NOT have to happen this way if he had been more committed to our M in good times and in bad. And if he had actually considered more than just his own feelings and needs.

So today, I live with triggers, distrust and endless questions and an overwhelming sense of anxiety that is with me daily. Our children carry their own scars and our oldest considers him a ghost of her father.

So is it really better because even he admits if he hadn't been so self-absorbed and emotionally immature, we could have healed our marriage without the dark cloud of betrayal hanging over us.

It's sad. Truly sad.

I still think about divorce almost daily, not because he's not loving or committed, but because I'm not quite sure if he's for real. Or if the man he was before all of this was the real one.

So while infidelity can be the catalyst that leads to a better marriage...it could have been better had other options been sought before something so painful and destructive as an affair.

And of course I question what the A says about his character because I don't think I would have married him had I known how selfish and immature he was going to act during the course of our marriage. He's made my life and my children's lives harder and brought a dangerous stranger into our lives. A dangerous stranger that keep poking around in my life.

Better? Not in the grand scheme of things at all.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I am pretty much there as well. WH says that I know everything - I know the big picture - I know there is more. I told him that I needed to know the answers to more or it will kill me to have to live with questions always pounding in my head. I have to. We are only 4 months into true R after 4 DDs. It is now or never, and if there is a never, there is no us. I can't deal with any secrets. Like I told him, he knows all of the answers and wants to lock all the bad away so he can try to move on from it. What differnce does it make to him if he lets me know too - that way I can move on and not ever wonder. I have mixed emotions. Our children will be staying with family for a few weeks, so we will finally have some alone time to hash through it. It can't be better if there are secrets or things the WS does not want to talk about because it is a bad memory for them. All the skeletons have to be released.


That's it. Questions that will forever eat away at me. Our gift for life I guess. Even if I divorce I'll still wonder. I have seriously aged ten years in this past nine months alone. It's really mean of them. What were the four ddays?!? Good luck with your time alone with him.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> Our issue is he can't tell me why he did it. He kept the ONS from me for nine years, now everything is a blur. We should have dealt with it then. Everything I read and even on this thread says he has to recognize why he did it so it won't happen again. We had been together over ten years, been married for eight, had two small kids, had just gotten back from a week long family vacation where I have tons of pics of us all smiling... :scratchhead:
> 
> The new story (after trickle truth) I've been told is he was sharing a room with his coworker on a business trip, they got drunk at the after party, his coworker brought the model they had used back to their room, had sex with her while my husband was in the room "sleeping" on the bed, she then offers my husband a BJ and he accepts. Gross, disgusting... AWFUL!!! He just tells me he doesn't know why he went thru with it, he was just weak. He can't give me any other reasons.
> 
> ...


You're right. You need answers. He needs to provide them for you. If he says he doesn't know why the ONS happened he may be telling the truth from a certain perspective. He might have been drunk and his judgement clouded. However, there IS a reason he was vulnerable to this, drunk or not. That is what he needs to be looking at, this vulnerability.

As far as the EA is concerned he needs to come clean about what really happened. I believe it is the same vulnerability that allowed him to accept the drunk BJ as allowed him to fall into that affair. And I don't think it stayed an EA either. The fact is that a successful reconciliation requires two people working together. Right now he isn't working at it because he is still holding secrets. And because you know you don't have the truth you can't fully work on R either.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Zanna said:


> So today, I live with triggers, distrust and endless questions and an overwhelming sense of anxiety that is with me daily.
> 
> I still think about divorce almost daily, not because he's not loving or committed, but because I'm not quite sure if he's for real. Or if the man he was before all of this was the real one.
> 
> And of course I question what the A says about his character because I don't think I would have married him had I known how selfish and immature he was going to act during the course of our marriage. He's made my life and my children's lives harder and brought a dangerous stranger into our lives.


I could have typed all of that myself.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> You're right. You need answers. He needs to provide them for you. If he says he doesn't know why the ONS happened he may be telling the truth from a certain perspective. He might have been drunk and his judgement clouded. However, there IS a reason he was vulnerable to this, drunk or not. That is what he needs to be looking at, this vulnerability.
> 
> As far as the EA is concerned he needs to come clean about what really happened. I believe it is the same vulnerability that allowed him to accept the drunk BJ as allowed him to fall into that affair. And I don't think it stayed an EA either. The fact is that a successful reconciliation requires two people working together. Right now he isn't working at it because he is still holding secrets. And because you know you don't have the truth you can't fully work on R either.


Totally.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Zanna said:


> I still think about divorce almost daily, not because he's not loving or committed, but because I'm not quite sure if he's for real. Or if the man he was before all of this was the real one.


Please excuse me for truncating your wonderful and obviously personal heartfelt post but I wanted to specifically highlight this statement.

You ask if the man he is now is the real one or the man he was before. The truth is he was that man but he woke up. Many people go through life on autopilot not really looking around to see what the consequences of their actions are.Oftentimes it take a cataclysmic event to wake them up to the realities of their lives. It sounds like this is exactly what happened to your husband. Is it tragic that he ended up turning your lives all upside down in the process. Yes of course. But the reality is that if that had never happened he would never have changed. He would not have received that wakeup call. As to how you should proceed now? You're ten months out from D-Day. If you examine how things have gone you will see a true pattern of improvement. There is a reason that it is said it takes 2-5 years to fully recover from a betrayal such as this. That's what it takes. But if your husband continues to demonstrate that this new man is the real one eventually you will feel safer and safer in the relationship. Eventually you will begin to get more comfortable that these changes are permanent. And remember, children feed off their parent's emotions. If you are unsure you are probably broadcasting that feeling to the children as well. As you feel better about things they will feel better as well. Its a process and one that I hope continues to improve for you and your family.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> That's it. Questions that will forever eat away at me. Our gift for life I guess. Even if I divorce I'll still wonder. I have seriously aged ten years in this past nine months alone. It's really mean of them. What were the four ddays?!? Good luck with your time alone with him.


Tell me about it! The nly good thing that has come of this - I am a workout freak now and am in the best shape of my life, but I have dark circles under my eyes and my skin does not glow like it used to - that happens when you cry almost everyday for 7 months straight I guess. 4 DDs - when he told me wanted a divorce (he had 2.5 month online and in person affair - Ahole - then again when he told me that he has been going back and forth but now knew he wanted to stay and fix his marriage, then again after OW sent me emails and he admitted (and I saw more texts) that he was talking to her again, then last DD when we had a really bad fight, he had his aha moment and admitted that he started texting her 2 weeks after 3rd DD. The only way I am able to stick it out is if I try to lump this all together as one big piece of crap that it is - that it was never done on first DD - but then that almost makes it worse sometimes - I don't know how to wrap my head around it. "The fog" - hell, what about reality staring you in the face? So 4 times between Dec 7 - Mar 6.

We need time for just us - I pray we make some headway. I have lots of questions still. I need to be done with it. We can't build a stronger marriage if all of the pieces are not exposed.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Ya, I have the circles under my eyes. My skin on my face looks tired and dull. I lost a TON of weight at first, people kept asking me if I was sick. I weighed less than my 11 year old! Sadly, I've gained it all back and then some. I went from throwing up everything to eating for comfort.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

LookingForTheSun said:


> Tell me about it! The nly good thing that has come of this - I am a workout freak now and am in the best shape of my life, but I have dark circles under my eyes and my skin does not glow like it used to - that happens when you cry almost everyday for 7 months straight I guess. 4 DDs - when he told me wanted a divorce (he had 2.5 month online and in person affair - Ahole - then again when he told me that he has been going back and forth but now knew he wanted to stay and fix his marriage, then again after OW sent me emails and he admitted (and I saw more texts) that he was talking to her again, then last DD when we had a really bad fight, he had his aha moment and admitted that he started texting her 2 weeks after 3rd DD. The only way I am able to stick it out is if I try to lump this all together as one big piece of crap that it is - that it was never done on first DD - but then that almost makes it worse sometimes - I don't know how to wrap my head around it. "The fog" - hell, what about reality staring you in the face? So 4 times between Dec 7 - Mar 6.
> 
> We need time for just us - I pray we make some headway. I have lots of questions still. I need to be done with it. We can't build a stronger marriage if all of the pieces are not exposed.


It sounds like you are doing a version of the 180. You DO need all the answers. You cannot move on without them. Working on yourself is excellent. You and hurting both have to find a way to get your answers. I don't know if that might be MC, a polygraph, filing for divorce? But no successful R can occur with pieces missing.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

And I run, they say it helps clear the mind. Unfortunately, when I run I start thinking I can't do this anymore. Running leads me to divorce each time.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> And I run, they say it helps clear the mind. Unfortunately, when I run I start thinking I can't do this anymore. Running leads me to divorce each time.


Just don't run away. We'd miss you.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> It sounds like you are doing a version of the 180. You DO need all the answers. You cannot move on without them. Working on yourself is excellent. You and hurting both have to find a way to get your answers. I don't know if that might be MC, a polygraph, filing for divorce? But no successful R can occur with pieces missing.


There's another thread going on this...
WS has agreed to a poly AGAIN. He bluffed me the first time. I started to call him on it, he then confessed to the ONS. Later I realized there was probably more he was not telling me... I struggle with making him do this, but I guess at this point I really need to call this second bluff. He sent me an email with a list of dates he could go in...


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Just don't run away. We'd miss you.


I don't think you ever run away from people that validate your worries and concerns, people that understand you and make you feel not alone.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> There's another thread going on this...
> WS has agreed to a poly AGAIN. He bluffed me the first time. I started to call him on it, he then confessed to the ONS. Later I realized there was probably more he was not telling me... I struggle with making him do this, but I guess at this point I really need to call this second bluff. He sent me an email with a list of dates he could go in...


You don't need to struggle. WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO TO FEEL SAFE HE SHOULD ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREE ON!!!

Sorry for the caps but I get so mad when a BS feels guilty for demanding what they need from a WS to move on. You've done nothing wrong. You should demand whatever you need and he should be kissing the ground you walk on for giving him a chance to stay married.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> I don't think you ever run away from people that validate your worries and concerns, people that understand you and make you feel not alone.


You're never alone unless you choose to be.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> Ya, I have the circles under my eyes. My skin on my face looks tired and dull. I lost a TON of weight at first, people kept asking me if I was sick. I weighed less than my 11 year old! Sadly, I've gained it all back and then some. I went from throwing up everything to eating for comfort.


I used to be a stress eater. Then my big brother died, then I was hit with "I want a divorce" after I just got home (same night) from dealing with his death/funeral.....amazing how long the human body can go without food. I had to make myself eat and lost 24 pounds in 1 month. I went from a size 10 back to my 4/5 that I was when I was in my early 20s. I told myself that I was never going back, and if I had to enter the dating pool again, I was going to be ready physically. I don't want that - AT ALL, but I knew that it was a possibility. When/if we finally work through this and I am able to go for weeks without crying, I may just start to see a difference in my eyes - makeup is my best friend and I wear it 24/7 now. 

For the last couple of weeks (I was given more bad news - my father has lung cancer), I have been drinking a couple of wine coolers before bed, and I never was a drinker at all - maybe once a month I would have one or two. I had 4 last night - I had a flash of the affair from out of nowhere as I was driviing to the store by myself. I sat through a green light. It hit me hard - really hard. I was tense when I got home, WH asked if I had a bad day and I just said I was tired. I didn't even want to talk about it - it felt like DD1 all over again. So I popped the top and drank 4 in about 90 min. I woke up this moring and decided that even just one or two was not helping me at all and I am done. Sorry - guess I am going off the topic here) - but I have to keep a clear head, WH used to drink a lot of beer before and during affair, and after DD4 gave it up. He now drinks Odouls. 

Clear heads are needed in R and to make a marriage stronger or better. Guess that was my point


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> You don't need to struggle. WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO TO FEEL SAFE HE SHOULD ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREE ON!!!
> 
> Sorry for the caps but I get so mad when a BS feels guilty for demanding what they need from a WS to move on. You've done nothing wrong. You should demand whatever you need and he should be kissing the ground you walk on for giving him a chance to stay married.


I know... As soon as I hit submit I thought to myself, I'm worried about putting him thru a poly after what he has put me thru?!? 

Ya, he says he WANTS to do the poly. Course, he told me that before, even sending me links to people in our area.

Maybe I'm scared of the results, maybe I'm embarrassed... OK, maybe both. He's now on depression and anxiety meds, slightly worried how that will skew the results. Plus, he seems to be great at lying! And I'm so confused on what I want to be asked. I mean, you only get three questions! It's hard cause I got the ONS I think was more than a BJ, I got the possible EA/PA with the coworker, I got one other little worry that pops up from time to time - another coworker that might be questionable... He swears no sexual intercourse with anyone since our marriage, but I had a positive HPV result at one point. Sooo, how do I bring it down to three questions to ease my mind?!? :scratchhead:


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> It sounds like you are doing a version of the 180. You DO need all the answers. You cannot move on without them. Working on yourself is excellent. You and hurting both have to find a way to get your answers. I don't know if that might be MC, a polygraph, filing for divorce? But no successful R can occur with pieces missing.


Oh, and we did the MC. We did the IC. All three told me I may never know the full truth and if I want to stay married I've got to accept that and just move on. That's the advice? :scratchhead:

I think at this point he's not going to come clean on his own will. He didn't the first time! Kept the ONS from me for nine years! So it is going to take discovery on my own part or a big scare. 

I'm starting to wonder again if I should question the two coworkers... It's been four years since they quit talking. (For one, I'd like to know why they quit talking!) I don't know if it will just open a can of worms and make things really bad for him at work. (BTW, he did move locations shortly after I found out. He says for my benefit, but mostly I think cause he had been uncomfortable there for several years and this gave him the excuse to move. It has NOT been beneficial to his financial situation, either.)


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I tried to question the other women,, they are both married, so of course it was the "just friends",,, no romance involved crap...

I know their loyalty is with him, so they won't fess up to anything... plus I have contacted both their H's... so their not gonna rock the boat there.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

hurtingbadly said:


> There's another thread going on this...
> WS has agreed to a poly AGAIN. He bluffed me the first time. I started to call him on it, he then confessed to the ONS. Later I realized there was probably more he was not telling me... I struggle with making him do this, but I guess at this point I really need to call this second bluff. He sent me an email with a list of dates he could go in...




Call his bluff , poly him and ignore the dates he gave you, chose dates suitable for yourself . Keep him off balance and on his toes .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Call his bluff , poly him and ignore the dates he gave you, chose dates suitable for yourself . Keep him off balance and on his toes .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought I read I needed to be upfront with him, even letting him know the questions I might have them ask. Is this wrong? Anyone know?


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## StandingInQuicksand (Jun 4, 2012)

Hmmm...this thread is making me think of demanding a polygraph.

I don't really want any more details on the A. Sometimes I think I would, but most of the time I just don't want any more hurt. I've accepted that it happened and nothing will ever change that. Anything else seems like useless torture. 

But there were a couple other "smaller" things that occurred during the same period of time that the OW told me about/accused him of doing. Supposed nude pictures sent to him from other friends of mine, a sexy picture I actually found of a woman I don't know but have seen before, and another event with a drunken kiss he received but is said not to have reciprocated or provoked.

All of it was explained away, but as they say, if it doesn't make sense, it's usually a lie. So I think he's still lying and maybe he had things going with all of these other women? To the extent I could, I contacted everyone involved and either got angry total denials or plausible explanations matching his. 

It's totally possible that the lying witch of an OW totally made this stuff up. But why would she want to hurt me more than by having an A with my H right in my face? I mean she and her H told me these things the day I exposed the PA (and STD) part of the A to her H - so yeah she was very angry. But still...I just don't know.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Please excuse me for truncating your wonderful and obviously personal heartfelt post but I wanted to specifically highlight this statement.
> 
> You ask if the man he is now is the real one or the man he was before. The truth is he was that man but he woke up. Many people go through life on autopilot not really looking around to see what the consequences of their actions are.Oftentimes it take a cataclysmic event to wake them up to the realities of their lives. It sounds like this is exactly what happened to your husband. Is it tragic that he ended up turning your lives all upside down in the process. Yes of course. But the reality is that if that had never happened he would never have changed. He would not have received that wakeup call. As to how you should proceed now? You're ten months out from D-Day. If you examine how things have gone you will see a true pattern of improvement. There is a reason that it is said it takes 2-5 years to fully recover from a betrayal such as this. That's what it takes. But if your husband continues to demonstrate that this new man is the real one eventually you will feel safer and safer in the relationship. Eventually you will begin to get more comfortable that these changes are permanent. And remember, children feed off their parent's emotions. If you are unsure you are probably broadcasting that feeling to the children as well. As you feel better about things they will feel better as well. Its a process and one that I hope continues to improve for you and your family.



Wow - the part about yes he was that man and going through life on autopilot -I think that may be a perfect fit for my WH. I told him about 2 months ago that I would have preferred he done something differently than an affair, but had it not happened now and like it did, he would have continued being a sh***y husband/father and we would have had X number of more years of lies. I am hoping that this ordeal is one that woke him up to realize that he has been liviing a selfish, hurtful life. I hope so and I hope it happened in time.


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## thebuckest (Jul 10, 2012)

After what I have been through I know u don't need the full truth, if u already know he cheated what do the details matter anyways. They are just your mind wandering and yeah u need to tell your spouse everytime you have these moments. That's actually how your relationship becomes stronger. Communication is the key that opens all the dorrs to keeping a good marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

thebuckest said:


> After what I have been through I *know u don't need the full truth,* if u already know he cheated what do the details matter anyways. They are just your mind wandering and yeah u need to tell your spouse everytime you have these moments. That's actually how your relationship becomes stronger. *Communication is the key that opens all the dorrs to keeping a good marriage.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



If communication is key, maybe we don't need all the details, but we do need the truth.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

thebuckest said:


> After what I have been through I know u don't need the full truth, if u already know he cheated what do the details matter anyways. They are just your mind wandering and yeah u need to tell your spouse everytime you have these moments. That's actually how your relationship becomes stronger. Communication is the key that opens all the dorrs to keeping a good marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to agree with numb in ohio on this. Each to their own.I need to know for closure, and also to establish proof of honesty from my CW. You have a right to know. If they won't show the courage to tell you, then R is very fragile at best.


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## thebuckest (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm not saying you don't need the truth u do what I mean by details is positions how was it etc. U need admission and a sincere one at least to move on. What I was trykng to get acrossed is details may never come and really can hinder r in the long run. 

Another thjng to consider is u may have gotten the truth and just because it may not soumd right or be the proper way u would have done things it still may be the truth. But as a hurt individual u will fail to believe that and always push for more and eventually push your spouse away. Only u can read your spousd and see his soul to tell if u think there is deceit so u have to be that judge. 

Don't want you to think I'm saying your wrong just sharing what I realized when my wife lied to me. Spent months tracking her every movemnt call txt everytjing and actually made thr r take a lot longer and be more painful for both of us than it needed to be. I hope u get what ur lookjng for gl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> Can you really be remorseful and not come clean?


IMHO,.........No.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> I know... As soon as I hit submit I thought to myself, I'm worried about putting him thru a poly after what he has put me thru?!?
> 
> Ya, he says he WANTS to do the poly. Course, he told me that before, even sending me links to people in our area.
> 
> Maybe I'm scared of the results, maybe I'm embarrassed... OK, maybe both. He's now on depression and anxiety meds, slightly worried how that will skew the results. Plus, he seems to be great at lying! And I'm so confused on what I want to be asked. I mean, you only get three questions! It's hard cause I got the ONS I think was more than a BJ, I got the possible EA/PA with the coworker, I got one other little worry that pops up from time to time - another coworker that might be questionable... He swears no sexual intercourse with anyone since our marriage, but I had a positive HPV result at one point. Sooo, how do I bring it down to three questions to ease my mind?!? :scratchhead:


A good examiner will be able to discern the truth in spite of any medications he is taking. The best examiners are the ones that the police departments use.

First of all I don't think he will actually submit to the polygraph. I think he'll admit the truth before he enters the examiner's office. If he does actually make it to the examiner's office I would ask these questions.

1) When you admit to having a BJ did you in fact have penetrative intercourse?

2) Did you have any physical sexual contact with the woman you already admit to having an EA with?

3) Have you had any other affairs or sexual encounters with any other women other than the two you have admitted contact with?

I think those three questions will get you enough information to decide whether to continue reconciliation or divorce.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Vegemite said:


> IMHO,.........No.


I agree. I think you can regret your actions but not be fully remorseful.


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## Vegemite (Apr 12, 2012)

hurtingbadly said:


> And I run, they say it helps clear the mind. Unfortunately, when I run I start thinking I can't do this anymore. Running leads me to divorce each time.


I run also. Best stressbreaker/anti-depressant out there. I can so relate to what you've just said.

On the link below, there's an article called "Joseph's letter". I managed to get more facts out of CW when I asked her read it. It got to her emotions a bit, but not completely. Don't give it to your WS in a heated arguement. Wait until they are at their most remorseful.


Helpful Healing Links


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Veg - thanks for posting that link - lots of info on there and the "letter" was well put.

I tried running one time after DD4 - I ran 5 miles out of the blue in an hour - pretty good for someone who has not done any running in about 15 years. I felt like Forrest Gump - just kept running to clear my mind. However, it did not work. I cried almost the whole time, had to stop and force myself to breath, and it was just too much time alone to think about things. I planned on taking up running, but have decided against it for now. WH and I do rip60 together and when I get too stressed I put on my gloves and take it out on the heavy bag.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks Beowulf. Those are good questions. He actually waivers on calling his relationship with his coworker an EA. He'll now admit it wasn't appropriate to be that close to a female, but he hesitates on saying the words EA. I know it was, but I might have to tweak that question. Personally, I feel it was a full blown affair and she's the reason I had HPV. 
The examiner I found used to work with the government, has been doing this for many years. I think I found a good one. 

Sun, I think I'll send WS the link to that letter. Thanks. And sometimes I do cry when I run, sometimes I get mad and run harder, but almost always I end up thinking I can't do this after a run. 

I agree about the details, they really hurt. But, I have no closure. He admits to a BJ with some stranger on a business trip, but I have one, maybe two coworkers I question and a HPV result that I have no answers to. I didn't get it from a BJ and I didn't carry it for 13 years to suddenly be clear the next year I'm tested! I can't continue living like this. These aren't doubts about details, they are doubts about some pretty big things.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Hurting - I too have HPV - had a LEAP done about 8 years ago and found out just recently after asking a question that I 99% got it from WH after his #2 about 10 years ago. I only could have gotten it from one other person 7 years before that - and thought I did until it came to light that a condom was not used - so I thanked him for giving that to me as a result of his selfishness and stupidity. He had a crying fit, threw up, and now knows that he has been putting my health at risk - like it was not common sense - now I am angry again :-( Lucky for us both that he didn't catch anything else. 

I felt that way too after running, which is another reason why I can't pick it up again - not good thoughts when you are trying to R. And when I kickbox, I say in my head -" I f'ing hate her, WTF were you thinking, I can't take this, how does someone do that, I want to kick the sh** out of her".


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Oh, and FYI - I did a google search and HPV can be transmitted through oral....not that it makes you feel any better :-( Sorry you are here too.


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

LookingForTheSun said:


> Hurting - I too have HPV - had a LEAP done about 8 years ago and found out just recently after asking a question that I 99% got it from WH after his #2 about 10 years ago. I only could have gotten it from one other person 7 years before that - and thought I did until it came to light that a condom was not used - so I thanked him for giving that to me as a result of his selfishness and stupidity. He had a crying fit, threw up, and now knows that he has been putting my health at risk - like it was not common sense - now I am angry again :-( Lucky for us both that he didn't catch anything else.
> 
> I felt that way too after running, which is another reason why I can't pick it up again - not good thoughts when you are trying to R. And when I kickbox, I say in my head -" I f'ing hate her, WTF were you thinking, I can't take this, how does someone do that, I want to kick the sh** out of her".


My HPV is weird. I always had normal paps. One year after my second child was born I had an abnormal pap. They tested it for HPV and it was negative. Six months later I have another pap and it is fine. Fast forward six years and for some odd reason my GYN suggests the HPV test. I really didn't think anything of it and said sure. It came back positive for high risk, but my pap was normal. Really, if she didn't ask I wouldn't have known cause my pap was fine. A year later they test me again for the HPV and it is negative. The thing is I had been married for 13 years at the time and hadn't been with anyone else for at least 16. So it makes no sense. During the time between the first test after my second child and the second test he had the "BJ" and had the EA with his coworker. Ironically, the coworker quit talking to him two weeks after I discovered the HPV and he can't tell me why. Go figure. 

So I just have no closure... I'm right where I was when I first started asking questions, except I have the BJ that I never knew about. Personally, I think he gave me the BJ story to try to hold me off on the full blown affair with the coworker.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh, I’ll jump back a page because you mentioned the guilt for putting him through this. It isn’t talked about much that I see, but you need to have the right attitude and perspective about that. Otherwise, feeling that guilt and berating yourself for feeling that way after what he put you through will erode your self-esteem and confidence. Makes you feel spineless perhaps?

So, accept that it is ok to feel guilty. Your mind is still holding onto the ideals of marriage and love. In this ideal, you shouldn’t have to force your spouse to take a lie detector test. You shouldn’t have to ask him to do this or that. Its repulsive that you have found yourself in a place where you do (hence the anger side of it too). It goes against your belief system to have to do these things to someone you love. 

So, I just accept that it is quite normal to feel guilt; It re-assures me that I’m not foggy and that my own morals and values are still in the right place. Doing this, I can forgive myself for that guilt without berating myself that I’m a doormat for feeling consideration for this person who hurt me so deeply....


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## hurtingbadly (Sep 14, 2011)

Racer said:


> So, accept that it is ok to feel guilty. Your mind is still holding onto the ideals of marriage and love. In this ideal, you shouldn’t have to force your spouse to take a lie detector test. You shouldn’t have to ask him to do this or that. Its repulsive that you have found yourself in a place where you do (hence the anger side of it too). It goes against your belief system to have to do these things to someone you love.


That's so it. I just can't believe I'm at a place I have to do this. That trust is that so gone...

Last night I told him again I don't believe or trust him. He said he understands and that it is not something that happens overnight. That it will slowly have to build back up over time. I guess he's right, that still doesn't change the fact I don't believe him! And really... If he's still withholding something I'm not so sure how it will build back up with my gut telling me otherwise.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> My HPV is weird. I always had normal paps. One year after my second child was born I had an abnormal pap. They tested it for HPV and it was negative. Six months later I have another pap and it is fine. Fast forward six years and for some odd reason my GYN suggests the HPV test. I really didn't think anything of it and said sure. It came back positive for high risk, but my pap was normal. Really, if she didn't ask I wouldn't have known cause my pap was fine. A year later they test me again for the HPV and it is negative. The thing is I had been married for 13 years at the time and hadn't been with anyone else for at least 16. So it makes no sense. During the time between the first test after my second child and the second test he had the "BJ" and had the EA with his coworker. Ironically, the coworker quit talking to him two weeks after I discovered the HPV and he can't tell me why. Go figure.
> 
> 
> So I just have no closure... I'm right where I was when I first started asking questions, except I have the BJ that I never knew about. Personally, I think he gave me the BJ story to try to hold me off on the full blown affair with the coworker.



A little off the topic - my recent "letter to the OW basically states that she might want to start getting regular paps, because if she didn't have it already, she most likey has HPV now due to her choice to have unprotected sex and giving a BJ to my husband in a walmart parking lot, and if she cared anything about her BF, she would let him know too because it can lead to cancer of the manhood too - and then BCCing her long-term BF who I think has not a clue.....it is just sitting in draft now. (for the record, I have never had any contact w/OW - we are 4 months in R - but I still think aout it - this would do some damage I am sure).


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

hurtingbadly said:


> Thanks Beowulf. Those are good questions. He actually waivers on calling his relationship with his coworker an EA. He'll now admit it wasn't appropriate to be that close to a female, but he hesitates on saying the words EA. I know it was, but I might have to tweak that question. Personally, I feel it was a full blown affair and she's the reason I had HPV.
> The examiner I found used to work with the government, has been doing this for many years. I think I found a good one.
> 
> Sun, I think I'll send WS the link to that letter. Thanks. And sometimes I do cry when I run, sometimes I get mad and run harder, but almost always I end up thinking I can't do this after a run.
> ...


So change the question from EA to inappropriate relationship. In truth the wording doesn't matter. If fact, the polygraph will really only answer one question for you. Is there more? And if there is indeed more you can decide if you want to let your husband come clean (if he will) or if you've had enough and file. I think that is really what you need to know ultimately.


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> Please excuse me for truncating your wonderful and obviously personal heartfelt post but I wanted to specifically highlight this statement.
> 
> You ask if the man he is now is the real one or the man he was before. The truth is he was that man but he woke up. Many people go through life on autopilot not really looking around to see what the consequences of their actions are.Oftentimes it take a cataclysmic event to wake them up to the realities of their lives. It sounds like this is exactly what happened to your husband. Is it tragic that he ended up turning your lives all upside down in the process. Yes of course. But the reality is that if that had never happened he would never have changed. He would not have received that wakeup call. As to how you should proceed now? You're ten months out from D-Day. If you examine how things have gone you will see a true pattern of improvement. There is a reason that it is said it takes 2-5 years to fully recover from a betrayal such as this. That's what it takes. But if your husband continues to demonstrate that this new man is the real one eventually you will feel safer and safer in the relationship. Eventually you will begin to get more comfortable that these changes are permanent. And remember, children feed off their parent's emotions. If you are unsure you are probably broadcasting that feeling to the children as well. As you feel better about things they will feel better as well. Its a process and one that I hope continues to improve for you and your family.


I understand what you are saying and I can definitely see a pattern of improvement now. That said, in hindsight my H has shown a pattern of flaky immature behaviour throughout our marriage and prior, so I'm not sure if I can ever trust him again at this point. And it's not just about the affair.

I will try to condense the story...

While we were dating, he broke up with me so often my parents wanted me to end the relationship. He was always flip flopping and claiming he was falling out of love with me and then he suddenly he would be back in love. I was young, he was young and I thought he'd grow up but he didn't outgrow the pattern...

I got pregnant 4 years into dating.

We moved in to together and about 4 years later we had the usual in-law issues and some communication problems. My H's reaction to our issues was to move in with his father. A month later, he'd move back in. Rinse and repeat 3 times until I told him if he wanted to live with his dad, he was going to be living with his dad. Of course, he was suddenly cured of his need to move out but I said IC and MC or he was not coming home. Our MC said that my husband had commitment issues and was very emotionally immature. In private, out MC told me my H was making him very angry because he had a beautiful, intelligent, articulate woman and a child but his attitudes towards relationships and commitment were poor. My H blamed me for all of our issues because he said I was the one who came from a dysfunctional family. Yes, when I was a child my family was dysfunctional but my parents are still together and now have a wonderful marriage. They have also grown and matured over the years. His family on the other hand, sweeps issues under the carpet, are backstabbers, have a multitude of issues and his parents divorced in his late teens. His father has also had two affairs - one during his first M and another during his second (he married his AP and then cheated on her) but in my H's mind, my family was dysfunctional and his was perfect. He actually said he had a perfect childhood. He said this knowing his father had been cheating on his mother. 

Then, a year after MC and a few months before our wedding, we got into a fight and he told me he didn't love me enough to marry me and that we should cancel the wedding. I told him if he wanted to cancel the wedding, he could make the calls. Of course he never did and apologized 3 days later but the damage was already done.

My H bails or threatens to bail when the going gets rough. He consistently damages our foundation of trust. He blames me for all of the marriage problems and his unhappiness. Yes, now he admits how wrong he was but he also admitted he was wrong when we went to counseling prior to marriage as well. So he didn't really "get it", he just said he did and then did it again so I wonder if his A was just another cumulation of all of his issues, poor coping skills and leaky character.

I am trying. He is trying but I'm not sure it will be enough this time. I'm not sure even 2-5 years down the road if I will ever regain the trust because quite honestly, I don't think I have ever trusted him after all the things he has said and done to me. And quite frankly, I'm not sure I should. I don't want to be back here in 10 years, with my H once again bailing on our M because we're not longer in the honeymoon phase of R. I'm beginning to wonder if my H is just poor long term relationship material. He's a drama queen and he's passive aggressive. There is always drama and convert anger when a honest conversation and some self-reflection would have served him better.

All that said, he does seem to finally get it. He claims he is embarrassed and ashamed by all his poor behaviour over the years. He claims this was his only A and he will gladly do a poly. He claims that he has finally learned his lesson and that he never wanted to lose me at any time during all his dramatic outbursts. He claims he will never again resort back to passive aggressive behaviour or sweeping issues under the carpet or blaming me because that was all extremely unfair. He seems to have had a "coming to Jesus" moment so to speak...

But I am very cautious and I wonder if it's a little too late. I feel different this time. Like I am no longer afraid of D and that maybe it is time. Hopefully that all makes sense. I do acknowledge that my emotions are still all over the place and I am still on the rollercoaster so I am not rushing my decision. There is a lot of love still between us and I know he is very afraid he has pushed me too far and has asked for one last chance but I am very very afraid to trust again. Life is too short and I am not getting any younger.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Like some have said if your marriage was crappy and hell then yes it can be even greater, you only have upwards to go.

But my wife and I had a great relationship prior to the affair. She doted on me, i was everything to her. The sex was there, the affection, the 100% trust and love. She did almost everything for me (what I would give to have all that back again).

This is the woman who would wake me up in the morning everyday with a BJ (my own alarm clock).

Fast foward to now, we still have a great life and are truly happy again but it'll never be what it was prior to the affair ever again, she will never commit 100% to me again, she said she could give 99.9% but never 100% ever, just in case.

Can you blame her. Man, that .1% is a biggy too


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Zanna said:


> I understand what you are saying and I can definitely see a pattern of improvement now. That said, in hindsight my H has shown a pattern of flaky immature behaviour throughout our marriage and prior, so I'm not sure if I can ever trust him again at this point. And it's not just about the affair.
> 
> I will try to condense the story...
> 
> ...


This time I didn't truncate your post but just highlighted something I wanted to mention. 

Have you thought that maybe this is the reason that his changes this time seem to be more resolute and permanent? Maybe because you are ready to move on if necessary he has come to a point where he needs to in order to do the necessary things to keep your relationship going and be the man you need him to be. Maybe he realizes that you just won't settle for less. Its one of the reasons "work on yourself" is one of the first things that is said to a BS. In the end you have to be the best _you_ you can be and if he wants to keep the great _you_ that you are then he has to step up his game and be the best _him_ he can be. Does that make sense?


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> This time I didn't truncate your post but just highlighted something I wanted to mention.
> 
> Have you thought that maybe this is the reason that his changes this time seem to be more resolute and permanent? Maybe because you are ready to move on if necessary he has come to a point where he needs to in order to do the necessary things to keep your relationship going and be the man you need him to be. Maybe he realizes that you just won't settle for less. Its one of the reasons "work on yourself" is one of the first things that is said to a BS. In the end you have to be the best _you_ you can be and if he wants to keep the great _you_ that you are then he has to step up his game and be the best _him_ he can be. Does that make sense?


It would make sense if it this was the FIRST time I seemed resolute and if he actually knew I was seriously leaning towards D but he does not. Unlike him, I will not play games and vacillate. When I am truly done, he will know it. All he knows is that I am not fully committed to R.

Also, keep in mind, I threw him out for 6 months when he was "confused" and kept moving to his Dad's place. He got himself together pretty quickly then and attended IC and MC and then went right back to his usual pattern when issues cropped up again. And his threatening to cancel the wedding was met with, "Go ahead. Here are the numbers." He knows I'm not a doormat. He even admitted he went into complete panic mode when OW threatened to expose if he left her because he said he knew I would divorce him if I found out about the A. He didn't think there was a snowballs chance in hell I would ever commit to R. The only reason I even considered it was because I had checked out of the M prior to the A and had given him the ILYBINILWY speech first. I had also read a few books on marriage including The 5 LL's and His Needs/Her Needs so I was a lot more open than I would have been had the A been exposed earlier. 

BUT there were a couple things he said after D-day that have been weighing heavily on my mind recently. During a fight, he said he thought I deserved a fresh start and so did he, and that he had one foot out the door for years anyway. He has since said that he said those things out of frustration and anger at himself and that he does not want a fresh start with anyone but me and that he had one foot out the door during the A, but it was never what he truly wanted. He felt I rejected him first but the issue is I withdrew due to his flaky behaviour which has always made me feel very unsafe. The older I get, the more I wonder if I "settled". And the man is still flaky. He get a chance at R and he says foolish things again?! Has he really learned? I don't think he truly has...

Ironically, he has tried to convince me for years that I was the wrong person for him, that we were incompatible, the usual cheater's script that I heard even when he wasn't in an A but now that I am inclined to believe him, he is recanting all of it. It was always "I was the wrong person for him", "I was the cause of all our issues" and those were his reasons for being less than committed to our relationship and then subsequent marriage, but I no longer buy that it is all my fault. And he did the same thing to OW. One minute he thought he loved her, then he didn't. He broke up with her for 4 months then got back together, told her he was leaving me, then asked me for a D, then told her he wanted to end their A and didn't want a D. That's when she threatened him and then said to wait for him to keep her from blowing it up, then told her he didn't love her. He was as flaky and uncommitted with her as he was with me.

So is the A the real issue OR is it simply his lack of commitment, flakiness and his core character which led to the A? That is where I am at...


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