# What's the biggest mistake you see women make?



## jld

I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse. 

I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves. 

My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups.

What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


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## over20

Not putting enough effort into learning about their husband's sexual needs.


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## jld

over20 said:


> Not putting enough effort into learning about their husband's sexual needs.


Not enough variety? Not often enough?


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## over20

I think in general. Learning how their husband views sex and how male sexuality works and being empathetic to their husband in this area and to not shame him in any way.


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## jld

I know I have said it before, but I have given more blow jobs since I found marriage forums than I did the whole 20 years we were first together. What was I thinking? 

I have always thought men needed sex often, and was more or less available (occasionally I would say no, if I was really tired, for example). And dh has never been picky. Even the times I was just lying there were still okay to him. 

But if I could go back and relive the last 21 years, I would make more of an effort to delight him, and not be selfish and lazy. I really do love him, and want him to be happy. Live and learn.


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## over20

Honey, you are far above a lot of women in the world in the fact that you have learned to continue to grow sexually for your husband. 

A husband will do anything for a wife that understands him deeply on this level. It is a priceless gift we can give as wives.


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## jld

That's sweet, over20. Thanks a lot! 

You know, I think I read over on SIM that a man who is sexually satisfied will overlook a lot of faults in his wife, and might stay with her despite other really serious problems. Sex really is that important to men.


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## over20

I agree. Years and years ago I tackled this very issue. I wanted to be the ideal wife for him and had no idea how to. I started reading and reading a TON! I started reading about marriage in general and by default started reading and learning about male sexuality and a man's deepest desires and wants, which also include respect and admiration. What happened was funny....by me reaching out and learning how to be a better wife to him...in turn he has gone to deep lengths to become a better husband to me....it was a turn of events that I did not expect.


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## jld

What a great story! You didn't worry about what he was doing for you, you just decided to do the best you could for him! And got a great bonus! :smthumbup:


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## over20

JLD....when I was younger in my twenties, I was very jealous and insecure. We had 4 babies in 8 yrs..I did not feel good about myself at all and it showed...I am not proud of it. That is when I told myself, something has GOT to change here!! I can't go through life being the grouchy, insecure wife. I was scared I would keep pushing him away. That is when it all started.


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## jld

Thanks for sharing that, over20. I know it is hard to be vulnerable, right here on a public forum. But we learn so much from people who have that courage. 

You really behaved pro-actively. You saw a problem, and decided to face it head on. And it all worked out!

Dh has always seemed very happy with me. Even when I really didn't feel like I was at my best at all. But his love just feels so unconditional. His love "covers all my sins."

Sheesh, my esteem for him is almost idolatry! :rofl:


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## over20

That's how I feel about hubs too.  He has a true loving servant heart towards the kids and I.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I agree with low self-esteem and trying to put everyone above themselves. Also not speaking up for your own needs and wants. 

In the circle of women that I know, many of them are the types to go crazy doing everything and anything for their husbands and get very little back. If they complain they are often told "that's just how men are, they don't help around the house, they don't talk about feelings, they look at other girls" and things like that so they just think they have to put up with it instead of demand better for themselves.


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## over20

I also think gossip can be a real issue for women. We are curious about people by nature and sometimes it can go too far and hurt others.


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## Fozzy

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.
> 
> *My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups*.
> 
> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


I had a discussion yesterday with my wife about breast implants, and what's really driving the majority of sales behind them. She maintained that it was pervy husbands. I countered that it was primarily women's own insecurities. Plus strippers.


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## jld

Fozzy said:


> I had a discussion yesterday with my wife about breast implants, and what's really driving the majority of sales behind them. She maintained that it was pervy husbands. I countered that it was primarily women's own insecurities. Plus strippers.


You know, that is a subject I have been hesitant to say anything about, because it can so easily hurt women's feelings, either way.

I really hope that at some point, all of us women can feel really and truly secure in our bodies, whatever we choose to do with them. 

I have small breasts, okay, not tiny, but on the small side, and dh is perfectly fine with them. Honestly, I wish they were smaller. I don't like wearing a bra, and being flat-chested would make that a breeze!

Fozzy, what do you think men could do to make women feel more secure about their bodies?


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## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree with low self-esteem and trying to put everyone above themselves. Also not speaking up for your own needs and wants.
> 
> In the circle of women that I know, many of them are the types to go crazy doing everything and anything for their husbands and get very little back. If they complain they are often told "that's just how men are, they don't help around the house, they don't talk about feelings, they look at other girls" and things like that so they just think they have to put up with it instead of demand better for themselves.


I feel like I have heard this so many times, and it makes me sad. 

As much as I would like to think that men could first love and value the women in their lives, often it is the women who have to make the first move, and decide they are going to love themselves. So often women teach men about love.

Thanks for your post, SGC.


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## jld

over20 said:


> I also think gossip can be a real issue for women. We are curious about people by nature and sometimes it can go too far and hurt others.


Gossip. That's a tricky one. We all do it. And we have no idea if what we have heard, and are repeating, is true.

My sister said once, "What someone else thinks of me is none of my business." I think that is very freeing. 

I really have no control over how other people interpret my words or actions. And unless I discuss with them their words and actions, I can only interpret them, too. And we are probably both at least partially getting it wrong!


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## Nikita2270

I think all women are different but the women I avoid like the plague in my personal life have the following traits:

-Being oversensitive about stupid stuff. 

-Being obsessed with beauty that isn't real...ie, makeup, plastic surgery, brand name clothing, tanning, etc

-Being gossipy because they only feel ok about themselves when they're trashing someone else

-Being entitled. These are women that enjoy spending other people's money instead of having the self-esteem to earn their own. They tend to brag when people buy them stuff because they think other people are jealous rather than disgusted by how shallow they are.

-Creating false persona and bragging all the time. These are the women that want you to believe that they, their husband's and their children are perfect.

-Being disloyal. These are the women that can barely wait for you to get out of the room before they call someone to tell them the personal information that you gathered up the courage to confide in them thinking you could trust them.

-Women that read something into everything. They take everything personally and are always trying to pull others into their drama and nonsense. They feel alive by filling their lives and other's lives with conflict.

-Women that never let stuff go. These are the ones that will talk about past events over and over and over again while analyzing it to a ridiculous level.

-Women that never stop talking about the man in their lives. These are the ones that have zero self-identity and have an unhealthy and pathetic level of dependence on their partner.

-Women that do the same thing as previous but with regard to their kids because they have a crappy husband.


I could go on...lol, but I'll stop. The women that I love to be around are like this:

Relaxed, cool, funny, professional, educated, self-reliant, independent, loving, loyal, kind to others, focused on other people's needs before their own...


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## SimplyAmorous

over20 said:


> Not putting enough effort into learning about their husband's sexual needs.


Yep...this was my #1 blunder ...when a woman is always satisfied herself, she sometimes just doesn't "get it"... she isn't feeling it like he is... and if he doesn't speak up enough.. he could be suffering....

And being too focused on our kids...placing Dad on the back burner...These were *my* biggest mistakes once upon a time.


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## jld

It sounds like you know what you like, Nikita. Clear boundaries are always helpful.


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## TiggyBlue

Read beauty/gossip magazines.
Expecting the beauty/fashion industry to have a conscience.


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> And being too focused on our kids...placing Dad on the back burner...These were *my* biggest mistakes once upon a time.


Lol, I felt like dh put the kids first for the longest time . . . right after his job.

But as they are getting older, we are able to spend more time together, and I really appreciate that.


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## jld

TiggyBlue said:


> Read beauty/gossip magazines.
> Expecting the beauty/fashion industry to have a conscience.


Good point, Tiggy. It's all about money.


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## Fozzy

jld said:


> You know, that is a subject I have been hesitant to say anything about, because it can so easily hurt women's feelings, either way.
> 
> I really hope that at some point, all of us women can feel really and truly secure in our bodies, whatever we choose to do with them.
> 
> I have small breasts, okay, not tiny, but on the small side, and dh is perfectly fine with them. Honestly, I wish they were smaller. I don't like wearing a bra, and being flat-chested would make that a breeze!
> 
> Fozzy, what do you think men could do to make women feel more secure about their bodies?


Reassurance, compliments, and the like are probably the fallback answer here, but honestly I think there's only so much good that can do in the long run. Ultimately it's going to be up to the individual woman to feel comfortable in their own skin.


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## Caribbean Man

The biggest mistake I think women make , and this one is very similar to men, is lying to themselves.

They lie to themselves about their relationships.
They lie to themselves about sex [ sex will fix the relationship.]
They lie to themselves about bad treatment they get from their SO.
They lie to themselves about wants vs needs.
They lie to themselves thinking they could change a man who doesn't want to change.

They lie to themselves about their feelings
They lie to themselves and think they aren't " pretty enough." [ that one stems from poor self esteem.]
They lie to themselves that they don't need help.[ This one is also common among men]


I just occurred to me that all of this lying could actually stem from a lack of self awareness.
So maybe the biggest mistake is not continually seeking higher self awareness.


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## jld

Well, that is certainly true, Fozzy. We women have to be convinced in our own minds.

I'll tell you what, though. When I read threads on here about men who like small breasts, or men who like short women, it makes me feel more confident about my body. 

Now, it should not matter to me what other men think. My dh has always loved my body, and that really should be enough. But there is usually this thought in the back of my mind that he is just being nice to me, or that because he loves me, he just accepts me the way I am, even though it is not really good enough.

But when I came to TAM and started reading threads, or at least posts, like the ones I mentioned above, it got me thinking that maybe dh's pov was valid, after all. Maybe he wasn't just being nice. Maybe being short and having small breasts really was attractive in its own way. I sure would not hear or see that in the advertising industry.

The advertising industry really does condition us women, I think.

I do think that men can help women, just by being honest with them, and patient.

While I am on the subject, I think it is also helpful for women to tell men, if they honestly feel it, that there are qualities that matter to them more than a certain body type or how much money they make. I think men need to hear, as much as women, about the perhaps less common, but equally valid, worthy qualities they may have.


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## skype

I think the biggest mistake women make is trying to be all things to all people. Best mother, wife, employee, cook, housekeeper, friend, sister, daughter.

Then we feel guilty and exhausted because we cannot do everything equally well.

We need to recognize that we cannot make everything right for everyone in our lives. Relax, and stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.


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## Ikaika

Assuming men are as complex as they are and over think most situations involving men.


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## SurpriseMyself

over20 said:


> Not putting enough effort into learning about their husband's sexual needs.


:rofl: Because that is what life is all about.

Seriously, this thread includes BJs, breast implants, and a woman's self esteem? Good lord! How about a woman's biggest mistake is thinking any of those things are important at all! What a waste of a life. Go out in the world. Make a difference. Matter in some way! Any woman you will ever read about in the history books was not the least concerned about her husband's d--- or the size of her breasts.


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## Holland

Not being independent enough, being the "little wife" who knows nothing about the financial running of a family, how to handle the finances or help in decision making. 
Being too reliant on a man to meet her needs, to look after her and hold her hand through life like a little girl.


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## Giro flee

The most painful mistake I wish women would stop making is staying with violent, abusive, alcoholic, drug addicted, narcissistic players. I've had to distance myself from a sister who just goes from one horrible man to the next and it is so painful to watch. I would love to never see a woman with a black eye again. I think it just comes down to not valuing yourself at all.


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## jld

Giro flee said:


> The most painful mistake I wish women would stop making is staying with violent, abusive, alcoholic, drug addicted, narcissistic players. I've had to distance myself from a sister who just goes from one horrible man to the next and it is so painful to watch. I would love to never see a woman with a black eye again. *I think it just comes down to not valuing yourself at all.*


Yep. 

I have a sister who lived the above. She just struggled for the longest time to get away from all that. 

She still doesn't trust anyone. It is very sad.


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## jld

skype said:


> I think the biggest mistake women make is trying to be all things to all people. Best mother, wife, employee, cook, housekeeper, friend, sister, daughter.
> 
> Then we feel guilty and exhausted because we cannot do everything equally well.
> 
> We need to recognize that we cannot make everything right for everyone in our lives. Relax, and stop letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.


I agree. We cannot please everyone. And some people cannot be pleased at all.

I think when women value themselves, they start to say, Hey, think what you want. This is what I think. And the need to please everyone out there starts to diminish.


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## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.
> 
> My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups.
> 
> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


Thinking that women are a homogenous group whose mistakes you can group homogeneously.


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## over20

ebp123 said:


> :rofl: Because that is what life is all about.
> 
> Seriously, this thread includes BJs, breast implants, and a woman's self esteem? Good lord! How about a woman's biggest mistake is thinking any of those things are important at all! What a waste of a life. Go out in the world. Make a difference. Matter in some way! Any woman you will ever read about in the history books was not the least concerned about her husband's d--- or the size of her breasts.


Why would you place such little value on meeting a spouses needs? It is a very selfless act.


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## hambone

ebp123 said:


> :rofl: Because that is what life is all about.
> 
> Seriously, this thread includes BJs, breast implants, and a woman's self esteem? Good lord! How about a woman's biggest mistake is thinking any of those things are important at all! What a waste of a life. Go out in the world. Make a difference. Matter in some way! Any woman you will ever read about in the history books was not the least concerned about her husband's d--- or the size of her breasts.


Wow.. You sound just like a classic 6o's feminists.


"OH.. so you are JUST a housewife."


There is no harder job than being a great wife and mom...

You way underestimate the value that SAHM's contribute to society. They are the glue that hold our society together.


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## Mostlycontent

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.
> 
> *My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups.*
> 
> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


Why do you think that is? I don't disagree as I've seen this problem with women and some are quite beautiful. I'm just at a loss as to why women seem to struggle with this more so than men.


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## Holland

hambone said:


> Wow.. You sound just like a classic 6o's feminists.
> 
> 
> "OH.. so you are JUST a housewife."
> 
> 
> There is no harder job than being a great wife and mom...
> 
> You way underestimate the value that SAHM's contribute to society. They are the glue that hold our society together.


Cant see where the poster underestimated or belittled SAHMs. But I have to agree with them that to reduce your worth to a big boobed, BJ giver is a waste of ones life. Heaven help me if I failed my daughters to that degree and that is all they aspired to.

And there is nothing wrong with being a feminist, you say it like it is an insult.


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## Caribbean Man

Giro flee said:


> The most painful mistake I wish women would stop making is staying with violent, abusive, alcoholic, drug addicted, narcissistic players. I've had to distance myself from a sister who just goes from one horrible man to the next and it is so painful to watch. I would love to never see a woman with a black eye again. I think it just comes down to not valuing yourself at all.


Sounds like my sister, but without the physical abuse part.

For most of her adult life, she has gone from one failure of a man, through many failures /. excuses for men, to an epic failure of a man.
Got married twice and both marriages failed.
And I agree, it's painful to look at.
I try to help her , but it only works until another looser comes along.


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## lifeistooshort

Assuming the implied question is what's the biggest mistake women make in relationships, I'd say choosing a partner based on his ability to provide and be a good guy without regard to how attracted to him they actually are and not knowing their own sexual needs. In the mens section I said that men pick women based on hotness without regard to character, but women don't consider sexual attraction enough because they're raised not to. This results in the deterioration of sex as the marriage goes on, and we know how marriages fall apart over sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikita2270

> They are the glue that hold our society together.


My mother worked and managed to raise 5 university educated offspring.

I work and I have two very successful children.

SAHP are not the glue that holds society together...staying at home is simply a choice and not always a good one.

You insulted a whole lot of men that work and women that work in your comments.


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## bkaydezz

Having an issue with self-control.
Feeling like they need to tear everyone around them down because they don't get their way. 

Trying to compete for the opposite sex, stealing boyfriends, lying to your girlfriends. ETC.

Having no respect for other women when it comes to someone confiding in them. ( This is sorry. Unfortunately it happens way, way too much.)


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## Caribbean Man

Nikita2270 said:


> My mother worked and managed to raise 5 university educated offspring.
> 
> I work and I have two very successful children.
> 
> SAHP are not the glue that holds society together...staying at home is simply a choice and not always a good one.
> 
> You insulted a whole lot of men that work and women that work in your comments.


Sorry,

I don't think I can agree with you 100% on this.

I don't think any job on the face of this earth could campare to that of a SAHM.

My mother was a divorced mom of four , never got a penny from my dad, worked and managed us and the household.
All of us , save one are succesfull in our professional lives.

A SAHM has one shift, and it never ends.
When does she " leave work and head home?"
A SAHM lives where she works and works where she lives ,oftentimes without any remuneration , literally running a business [ the household ] on a shoestring budget, taking care of her family's needs without any " _employee of the month / year_" plaques or bonuses , and absolutely no hope of being promoted and earning a higher wage.

SAHM's are definitely the glue that holds society together whilst others are out trying to build it.

We all have our paths we choose in life but I think this one is largely under appreciated. I know of some women who are very qualified, have excellent careers and decide to give it all up when they get pregnant, in order to nurture their child and family.

I'm not saying that all SAHP's are the same , but generally society tends to undervalue their contributions.


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## richie33

Stay at home parent is very important....more important though is both parents have a field they have experience in...in case something happens to the working spouse to fall back on.


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## lifeistooshort

Caribbean Man said:


> Sorry,
> 
> I don't think I can agree with you 100% on this.
> 
> I don't think any job on the face of this earth could campare to that of a SAHM.
> 
> My mother was a divorced mom of four , never got a penny from my dad, worked and managed us and the household.
> All of us , save one are succesfull in our professional lives.
> 
> A SAHM has one shift, and it never ends.
> When does she " leave work and head home?"
> A SAHM lives where she works and works where she lives ,oftentimes without any remuneration , literally running a business [ the household ] on a shoestring budget, taking care of her family's needs without any " _employee of the month / year_" plaques or bonuses , and absolutely no hope of being promoted and earning a higher wage.
> 
> SAHM's are definitely the glue that holds society together whilst others are out trying to build it.
> 
> We all have our paths we choose in life but I think this one is largely under appreciated. I know of some women who are very qualified, have excellent careers and decide to give it all up when they get pregnant, in order to nurture their child and family.
> 
> I'm not saying that all SAHP's are the same , but generally society tends to undervalue their contributions.


While I would agree that in general the contributions of a sahp are undervalued I disagree that they're some kind of magic glue that keeps society from falling apart. I used to stay at home and now I work, and my kids didn't do any better with me at home then they are doing now. I can also tell you that my shift doesn't end either; I come home from work and make sure their hw is taken care of (sometimes a part time job itself), provide tutoring where needed, make dinner (yes I cook) and see to all of their needs. I also attend school conferences, but I suppose i'm fortunate my job is flexible that way. Kids of working parents have needs too so we're all taking care of our kids needs.

I didn't do anything as a sahp that I don't do now, except maybe take them to the park and stuff, but they're in school now with plenty of activities so that wouldn't happen anyway. Oh, and i'm also a taxi service for their sports activities.

Sahp is great if that's what you want to so but to suggest that somehow society couldn't function without it is a bit of overkill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Distracting from the working/SAHM debate for a moment, I agree that learning your partners sexual needs is important but I agree with lifeistooshort that I think a mistake women can often make is not learning about our own.

Not just marrying someone who you aren't attracted to but also not speaking up for what we like and don't like, faking it, being worried about being a slvt or "unpure", thinking that women just aren't as sexual as men.


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## lifeistooshort

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Distracting from the working/SAHM debate for a moment, I agree that learning your partners sexual needs is important but I agree with lifeistooshort that I think a mistake women can often make is not learning about our own.
> 
> Not just marrying someone who you aren't attracted to but also not speaking up for what we like and don't like, faking it, being worried about being a slvt or "unpure", thinking that women just aren't as sexual as men.


I made this mistake in my first marriage; I didn't give enough consideration to my attraction to him. Then he turned out to be a d0uche so that marriage went downhill. I never would have married again unless it was to someone that I was wildly attracted to and a good guy; fortunately I found my hb. When I met him I really wanted to sleep with him, and later I found out what a great guy he was. Almost 10 years later and I still really want to sleep with him. There's just no substitute for a connection like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

The biggest mistake they do is not pushing themselves hard enough to see what their limits are. And when life pushes their limits for them they're toast.

You don't have to skydive or mountain bike down Mt. St. Helen sized mountains (like a recent Indian female intern of our team) to push your limits. 

Just THINK what could and would happen if you decided to do B instead of A. Work it out in your mind. Don't be complacent.


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## hambone

Holland said:


> Cant see where the poster underestimated or belittled SAHMs. But I have to agree with them that to reduce your worth to a big boobed, BJ giver is a waste of ones life. Heaven help me if I failed my daughters to that degree and that is all they aspired to.
> 
> And there is nothing wrong with being a feminist, you say it like it is an insult.


Nice straw man you built there. 

It wasn't until after I had children that I really began to appreciate the contribution that SAHM's make to society. See, my mom worked all the time that I was growing up. She was a teacher so she was out of school when I was. I never went to day care.

Before I had children, I was bound and determined that my wife was going to work.. After I had children, I wanted her raising my kids... Plus, my wife embraced being a SAHM. 

I saw the stress my mom was under, trying to work and raise kids. It is so much less stressful when the wife doesn't work.

Not everybody has a full appreciation of what SAHM's contribute to society.

And, as far as feminists that discount the contribution SAHM's make.. they are insulting SAHM's. Feminism should be about liberating women to be anything they want to be... and that includes SAHM's. I hold SAHM's in high regard.. I see great value in their contribution to society.


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## john117

jld said:


> You know, I think I read over on SIM that a man who is sexually satisfied will overlook a lot of faults in his wife, and might stay with her despite other really serious problems. Sex really is that important to men.



All the same, a man who is super sexually fulfilled by his wife and overlooks a lot if faults because he's getting lots of action in bed may wake up one day realizing that the marriage is toast regardless of sex. 

A wife, too.

Think of marriage like buying a car or any other consumer good (sorry). One single attribute that is very good should not overpower the rest of the decision. Yet it does, and toaster oven or car makers learn to tout their número uno feature. Meanwhile the rest of the product is not good. And consumers fall for it every time.


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## hambone

Holland said:


> Not being independent enough, being the "little wife" who knows nothing about the financial running of a family, how to handle the finances or help in decision making.
> Being too reliant on a man to meet her needs, to look after her and hold her hand through life like a little girl.


Your view is an overly broad generalization.. An inaccurate stereotype, a caricature of SAHM's. 

You need to meet my wife. She is the antipathy of what you describe.

She runs this house. The good news is that she is so good at it, I let her.


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## Miss Taken

I can't say that I had trouble with low self-esteem before but I can say that some of that esteem was garnered in the wrong ways. For instance and not to be provocative but one mistake I made was being afraid to be a b!tch. I prided myself on the fact that I never nagged him, made demands, wasn't needy. In reality, I prostrated myself so low at points in our relationship that had I been standing near the door, someone may of just have wiped their shoes on me as they enter. 

Pity that it took him cheating on me to realize that not only was it okay to speak out, stand up for myself and set limits/boundaries, make requests et al. but that I should be doing it and if he couldn't measure up, he can GTFO. So while I am not glad that he cheated, I am happy with some of the ways it has changed me. 

Ironically, me being more of a "b!tch" has not pushed him away at all. In fact, it seems to draw him closer. Go figure.


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## lifeistooshort

hambone said:


> Nice straw man you built there.
> 
> It wasn't until after I had children that I really began to appreciate the contribution that SAHM's make to society. See, my mom worked all the time that I was growing up. She was a teacher so she was out of school when I was. I never went to day care.
> 
> Before I had children, I was bound and determined that my wife was going to work.. After I had children, I wanted her raising my kids... Plus, my wife embraced being a SAHM.
> 
> I saw the stress my mom was under, trying to work and raise kids. It is so much less stressful when the wife doesn't work.
> 
> Not everybody has a full appreciation of what SAHM's contribute to society.
> 
> And, as far as feminists that discount the contribution SAHM's make.. they are insulting SAHM's. Feminism should be about liberating women to be anything they want to be... and that includes SAHM's. I hold SAHM's in high regard.. I see great value in their contribution to society.


I would argue that different people have different tolerances for stress. Your mom may have been stressed but another might have been fine with that arrangement. Some men do well as senior executives but others don't deal with the stress well and their family life suffers. I don't feel stressed at all working and raising kids because I have a high tolerance for stress and I love what I do so to me it's low stress. I can't wait to see my boys after work and school and they both say i'm better to be around since I went back to work. That's just me. 

If your family is obviously suffering because of the stress of work and home and it's an option you can make a different choice. It's great you wanted your wife home and she agreed, but if she'd wanted to work would you have guilted her into staying home? Or would you have worked together to find something that worked for both of you and your kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Miss Taken said:


> I can't say that I had trouble with low self-esteem before but I can say that some of that esteem was garnered in the wrong ways. For instance and not to be provocative but one mistake I made was being afraid to be a b!tch. I prided myself on the fact that I never nagged him, made demands, wasn't needy. In reality, I prostrated myself so low at points in our relationship that had I been standing near the door, someone may of just have wiped their shoes on me as they enter.


This was me too. Didn't speak up for myself, didn't want to be difficult or naggy. I didn't make enough demands early on which led to him not doing anything I needed which led to me being upset that he wasn't doing anything I needed. Eventually I just blew up and everything got pretty ugly and we are still trying to resolve things and the resentment that it created.


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## hambone

Nikita2270 said:


> My mother worked and managed to raise 5 university educated offspring.
> 
> I work and I have two very successful children.
> 
> SAHP are not the glue that holds society together...staying at home is simply a choice and not always a good one.
> 
> You insulted a whole lot of men that work and women that work in your comments.


for 12 years, my wife taught Sunday School to 5 year olds. One day, she told me off the cuff that she could tell a child raised in daycare from one raised at home. I snickered, SMH and rolled my eyes. She insisted she could. In a minute, another teacher walked by... She asked her, "can you tell the difference between a child raised in daycare and one raised at home?" And she said, "OH YES!!!! in a heartbeat." Several more teachers walked by, she asked them and all of them gave definitive answers that the differences between day care kids and stay at home kids were clear. What they said was, day care kids are much more aggressive, very disrespectful, and very defiant. And, we wonder why society is so much ruder than it used to be. 

SAHM's do far more than feminists give them credit for. Feminists have done a great disservice to motherhood and our society is worse off because of it. Young girls have been socialized into believing they have to have a career to have a worthy existence and I disagree.

I'm not doing any disservice to men and women who work... I'm just defending the value and contribution that SAHM's make to society.

BTW, this notion that some seem to have about SAHM's being the little kept woman who knows nothing about anything is a broad over generalization that is 100% contrary to my experience.


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## hambone

lifeistooshort said:


> I would argue that different people have different tolerances for stress. Your mom may have been stressed but another might have been fine with that arrangement. Some men do well as senior executives but others don't deal with the stress well and their family life suffers. I don't feel stressed at all working and raising kids because I have a high tolerance for stress and I love what I do so to me it's low stress. I can't wait to see my boys after work and school and they both say i'm better to be around since I went back to work. That's just me.
> 
> If your family is obviously suffering because of the stress of work and home and it's an option you can make a different choice. It's great you wanted your wife home and she agreed, but if she'd wanted to work would you have guilted her into staying home? Or would you have worked together to find something that worked for both of you and your kids?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you have a maid? My mother had a maid that came 3 days a week. That took a lot of stress off of her.

When we were dating, i asked my wife, "when you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up?' She said, "a Mommy". I pressed her several times and she never budged. 

When we married, she was running an in home day care. She ran it until our son was about 6 months old. The problem was all these kids in the house... sick at times, was keeping our son sick. So, as the kids left for school, she didn't replace them.

My wife LOVES being a wife and momma... She thrives on facilitating others. Not just our family but everybody. She's just a very giving person. If any kids yells "MOM!" My wife's head is on a swivel and she's moving towards the kid.

Notion of my wife being a bimbo, bj giving, kept woman who knows nothing about our finances is... well, I would NEVER have married a woman like that. My wife doesn't have a college degree but she is undoubtedly one of the smartest people I've ever met. She's a quick thinker, she has an extremely high E.Q. and she handles all the finances. I am not a controlling person. I see her as a wonderful help mate. She has the greatest smile and an infectious laugh. We went to a play one night, a comedy, and the director asked her if she could come back every night... because of her laugh. She is just an all around wonderful person who I am so lucky to have. Marrying her by far the best thing I've ever done.

When we had 2 small children, I got her a maid who came a couple of days a week.


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## john117

The problem with the beach approach is that there is likely to be a cutoff point after which (a) the beach spouse gets a bit carried away - in for a penny etc - and (b) the non beach spouse pretty much gets fed up and gives up with undesirable consequences for the marriage.

I like assertive women but eventually from my experience they often get carried away - more than men do (who also get carried away when in a position of power).

Beach people are very easy to predict and manipulate incidentally because their motives are fairly clear and not buried in an onion of this or that. Again this applies to both genders.


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## lifeistooshort

hambone said:


> Do you have a maid? My mother had a maid that came 3 days a week. That took a lot of stress off of her.
> 
> When we were dating, i asked my wife, "when you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up?' She said, "a Mommy". I pressed her several times and she never budged.
> 
> When we married, she was running an in home day care. She ran it until our son was about 6 months old. The problem was all these kids in the house... sick at times, was keeping our son sick. So, as the kids left for school, she didn't replace them.
> 
> My wife LOVES being a wife and momma... She thrives on facilitating others. Not just our family but everybody. She's just a very giving person. If any kids yells "MOM!" My wife's head is on a swivel and she's moving towards the kid.
> 
> Notion of my wife being a bimbo, bj giving, kept woman who knows nothing about our finances is... well, I would NEVER have married a woman like that. My wife doesn't have a college degree but she is undoubtedly one of the smartest people I've ever met. She's a quick thinker, she has an extremely high E.Q. and she handles all the finances. I am not a controlling person. I see her as a wonderful help mate. She has the greatest smile and an infectious laugh. We went to a play one night, a comedy, and the director asked her if she could come back every night... because of her laugh. She is just an all around wonderful person who I am so lucky to have. Marrying her by far the best thing I've ever done.
> 
> When we had 2 small children, I got her a maid who came a couple of days a week.



Nope, no maid. Hubby and I both clean, and boys are now 13 and 10 and have their own chores. Older son is trying to save for an expensive laptop he wants, which I could get him but he needs to earn his own money for extras like that, so he looks for extras to do.

I think I have extremely good time management skills and that helps a lot. It's great you found sometime of like mind, that's all that matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

Hambone, the daycare vs stay home behavior is pure horse apples in my view. Both my girls were in daycare - very good university daycare - and had caring parent(s). Neither is rude or aggressive in remotely the fashion you describe. 

There are lots of bad daycare facilities and just as many bad stay at home parents. I was a daycare child myself in the early 1960's... 

I had the opportunity to see many of my friends' kids grow up, daycare or not. Daycare or the lack thereof does not guarantee awesome or awful kids.

Around here there are a few church operated daycare centers that are pretty good with accredited kindergarten and so on. None of the kids I know who went there ended up being problem kids either.


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## lifeistooshort

john117 said:


> Hambone, the daycare vs stay home behavior is pure horse apples in my view. Both my girls were in daycare - very good university daycare - and had caring parent(s). Neither is rude or aggressive in remotely the fashion you describe.
> 
> There are lots of bad daycare facilities and just as many bad stay at home parents. I was a daycare child myself in the early 1960's...
> 
> I had the opportunity to see many of my friends' kids grow up, daycare or not. Daycare or the lack thereof does not guarantee awesome or awful kids.
> 
> Around here there are a few church operated daycare centers that are pretty good with accredited kindergarten and so on. None of the kids I know who went there ended up being problem kids either.


There are some bratty kids in my neighborhood that run wild and have sahm's. 
The kid next door to us was never in daycare because the parents work opposite shifts and he's a nasty kid with an anger problem. Not being in daycare doesn't guarantee you won't have a nasty kid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone

lifeistooshort said:


> Nope, no maid. Hubby and I both clean, and boys are now 13 and 10 and have their own chores. Older son is trying to save for an expensive laptop he wants, which I could get him but he needs to earn his own money for extras like that, so he looks for extras to do.
> 
> I think I have extremely good time management skills and that helps a lot. It's great you found sometime of like mind, that's all that matters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your kids are up pretty good size. They aren't as time consuming as younger kids.

My kids never road the school bus... Mom took them to school. I retired when my kids were in the 2nd and 4th grade. So, after that, I did some of the taking and lot of the picking up.

My wife is the velvet hammer. She is tough as nails when it comes to something she cares about. The little stuff... she will give in all day. She is very flexible. If plan A isn't working, she can flip to plan B with ease... and on to Plan C if necessary just as easily. She is like a Marine when it comes to adapting and overcoming.

The great thing about having her at home... when I got home, i didn't have to do any house work. I was pretty much free to relax, and spend time with my family.. with my kids.

We were 36 when we had our son and 39 when we had our daughter.

I changed jobs after my son was born. I quit a job that required me to work nights, weekends and holidays for one that was more or less 9-5 so I could spend more time with my family.
And my new job had flexibility. I could get off anytime I wanted to go see the kids in a play or concert etc.

Once I retired, I went on every field trip, ate lunch at school with the kids etc. I was at every soccer practice, every basketball practice... helping shag loose balls etc. And I absolutely LOVED every minute of it.

Two things contributed to being able to retire early... my ability to earn income at work and through investments and my wife's ability to manage money. 

God has blessed me beyond my wildest expectations both financially and with a wonderful loving wife and kids. We are a close knit family.


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## hambone

lifeistooshort said:


> There are some bratty kids in my neighborhood that run wild and have sahm's.
> The kid next door to us was never in daycare because the parents work opposite shifts and he's a nasty kid with an anger problem. Not being in daycare doesn't guarantee you won't have a nasty kid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are always exceptions to the rules..


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## hambone

john117 said:


> Hambone, the daycare vs stay home behavior is pure horse apples in my view. Both my girls were in daycare - very good university daycare - and had caring parent(s). Neither is rude or aggressive in remotely the fashion you describe.
> 
> There are lots of bad daycare facilities and just as many bad stay at home parents. I was a daycare child myself in the early 1960's...
> 
> I had the opportunity to see many of my friends' kids grow up, daycare or not. Daycare or the lack thereof does not guarantee awesome or awful kids.
> 
> Around here there are a few church operated daycare centers that are pretty good with accredited kindergarten and so on. None of the kids I know who went there ended up being problem kids either.


Well, you have limited personal experience. I didn't believe there was a difference either... Until all those Sunday School teachers told me different. And, they weren't like... "Uh... yeah... well, sometimes I can tell but not always."
'
They were very definitive... After hearing 4 or 5 of them verify what my wife was telling me.. I was convinced.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule.. but exceptions to the rule are just that... Exceptions.. and not the rule.


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## lifeistooshort

hambone said:


> Your kids are up pretty good size. They aren't as time consuming as younger kids.
> 
> My kids never road the school bus... Mom took them to school. I retired when my kids were in the 2nd and 4th grade. So, after that, I did some of the taking and lot of the picking up.
> 
> My wife is the velvet hammer. She is tough as nails when it comes to something she cares about. The little stuff... she will give in all day. She is very flexible. If plan A isn't working, she can flip to plan B with ease... and on to Plan C if necessary just as easily. She is like a Marine when it comes to adapting and overcoming.
> 
> The great thing about having her at home... when I got home, i didn't have to do any house work. I was pretty much free to relax, and spend time with my family.. with my kids.
> 
> We were 36 when we had our son and 39 when we had our daughter.
> 
> I changed jobs after my son was born. I quit a job that required me to work nights, weekends and holidays for one that was more or less 9-5 so I could spend more time with my family.
> And my new job had flexibility. I could get off anytime I wanted to go see the kids in a play or concert etc.
> 
> Once I retired, I went on every field trip, ate lunch at school with the kids etc. I was at every soccer practice, every basketball practice... helping shag loose balls etc. And I absolutely LOVED every minute of it.
> 
> Two things contributed to being able to retire early... my ability to earn income at work and through investments and my wife's ability to manage money.
> 
> God has blessed me beyond my wildest expectations both financially and with a wonderful loving wife and kids. We are a close knit family.



That's good. I went back to work when my boys were 2 and 5, yet believe it or not they never rode the bus either. I used extended day, which they loved because they got to play with their buddies. My ex wanted me home, except unlike you he was a d0uche that thought women were beneath him and thus I had to answer to him. Hard to believe he's still single 9 years after I divorced him. Not!

As it turned out I was not great at being a sahm. Part of it was that I was miserable with my ex and hated being dependent on him, but part of it was that I want to work. I have two degrees, one in a hard science, and want to be out there doing nerd stuff (which is exactly what I do). I'm now making more then my husband and he loves it, and since my older son already writes his own Java code and has his eyes on MIT I need to make some money 

It would never occur to me that sahm equals bimbo or moron.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

hambone said:


> There are always exceptions to the rules..


A few people at your church thinking something doesn't make it a rule. There are all kinds of studies out there. Some say daycare kids will be better, some say SAH kids will be better, some say there is no difference at all. 

People have to do what works for them. Respecting other choices goes both ways. It's counterproductive to say you want respect for your SAHM AND look at those horrible kids raised by daycare. How about show a little respect and kindness too?


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## lifeistooshort

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A few people at your church thinking something doesn't make it a rule. There are all kinds of studies out there. Some say daycare kids will be better, some say SAH kids will be better, some say there is no difference at all.
> 
> People have to do what works for them. Respecting other choices goes both ways. It's counterproductive to say you want respect for your SAHM AND look at those horrible kids raised by daycare. How about show a little respect and kindness too?


The problem with studies is that they're hard to compile and can often be compiled and interpreted to support whatever you want it to say. I deal with data/statistics for a living and I see it all the time. Everyone should do what they think best for their family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

The church Sunday school is not quite representative of a population now, is it?

I also deal with data every day and you need lots more analysis and vastly more data to weed out other factors.


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## SurpriseMyself

over20 said:


> Why would you place such little value on meeting a spouses needs? It is a very selfless act.


Because being a mom is a selfless and often thankless job. Because being a mom usually means changing diapers, breast feeding, cleaning toilets, changing the kitty litter, etc. Because being a working mom means bringing home the extra to keep the house afloat while being a mom on top of that. Because being a wife usually means we have to take care of all of that and meet our man's needs, too. What about our needs?

Women live their lives, day in and day out, being selfless. We specialize in selfless. And that is a huge mistake. We put everyone else's needs ahead of our own.


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## lifeistooshort

john117 said:


> The church Sunday school is not quite representative of a population now, is it?
> 
> I also deal with data every day and you need lots more analysis and vastly more data to weed out other factors.


The first issue you probably have in a church setting is bias.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone

john117 said:


> The church Sunday school is not quite representative of a population now, is it?
> 
> I also deal with data every day and you need lots more analysis and vastly more data to weed out other factors.


Every Sunday they deal with children, some who are raised in day care and some who are raised by SAHM's..

They certainly have broader experience than your personal experience so yeah I would say their experience is much more representative of the population than your very limited experience is.


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## hambone

ebp123 said:


> Because being a mom is a selfless and often thankless job. Because being a mom usually means changing diapers, breast feeding, cleaning toilets, changing the kitty litter, etc. Because being a working mom means bringing home the extra to keep the house afloat while being a mom on top of that. Because being a wife usually means we have to take care of all of that and meet our man's needs, too. What about our needs?
> 
> Women live their lives, day in and day out, being selfless. We specialize in selfless. And that is a huge mistake. We put everyone else's needs ahead of our own.


I agree.. that is why I keep saying that being a SAHM is so much less stressful for women.

Like you say, when a woman tries to work full time and be a full time mom... something has to fall off the table.

And, I don't care what anybody says, the vast majority of men are not going to share the housework 50:50


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## SurpriseMyself

hambone said:


> Every Sunday they deal with children, some who are raised in day care and some who are raised by SAHM's..
> 
> They certainly have broader experience than your personal experience so yeah I would say their experience is much more representative of the population than your very limited experience is.


"raised in daycare?!"

care to revise that statement?


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## FrenchFry

What the other two users are getting at is:



> Every Sunday


They are sampling a portion of society that may or may not be truely representative of all kids. They may see the pattern in, specifically, "kids who go to Sunday School in xtown"--which also could have factors not included such as income/housing/education of parents etc.

That's all! Enjoy your Saturday.


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## SurpriseMyself

hambone said:


> I agree.. that is why I keep saying that being a SAHM is so much less stressful for women.
> 
> Like you say, when a woman tries to work full time and be a full time mom... something has to fall off the table.
> 
> And, I don't care what anybody says, the vast majority of men are not going to share the housework 50:50


It's not a choice when your H doesn't make enough to support the family. I tried to address that; it doesn't make a difference. So I work because I have to. And many many women have to as well.


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## Chelle D

Biggest mistake women make = expecting/hoping for emotional commitment from their men.


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## SurpriseMyself

Chelle D said:


> Biggest mistake women make = expecting/hoping for emotional commitment from their men.


Just like men expecting/hoping for sexual commitment from their women!!


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## Chelle D

Probably true until later years... then It's like pulling teeth getting your hubs to commit to following thru with a sexual act.


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## SurpriseMyself

Chelle D said:


> Probably true until later years... then It's like pulling teeth getting your hubs to commit to following thru with a sexual act.


I learn something new every day on TAM. Yikes!


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## NobodySpecial

ebp123 said:


> Because being a mom is a selfless and often thankless job. Because being a mom usually means changing diapers, breast feeding, cleaning toilets, changing the kitty litter, etc. Because being a working mom means bringing home the extra to keep the house afloat while being a mom on top of that. Because being a wife usually means we have to take care of all of that and meet our man's needs, too. What about our needs?
> 
> Women live their lives, day in and day out, being selfless. We specialize in selfless. And that is a huge mistake. We put everyone else's needs ahead of our own.


Speak for yourself! We have 2 parents in this house. A Mom and a Dad. We have 2 kids. I work. We clean the house. We parent, even discipline (GASP!) our kids. Kids help. They don't take much in terms of discipline since the ground work was laid when they were small. I am not selfish, but far from selfless! I meet my needs. DH meets my needs. Kids meet my needs. We all met each others' needs.

If your household is not like that, it is not because you are female!


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## coffee4me

Biggest mistake I made being a woman. 

Mistakenly thought we defined love the same way. 

Me: love is selfless, what can I give to our relationship? 

Him: love is selfish, what am I getting from our relationship? 

Not a criticism of him he simply did not love the same way I did. That was something I should have figured out long before it smacked me upside the head.


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## Miss Independent

hambone said:


> Every Sunday they deal with children, some who are raised in day care and some who are raised by SAHM's..
> 
> 
> 
> They certainly have broader experience than your personal experience so yeah I would say their experience is much more representative of the population than your very limited experience is.



What do you mean by "raised in day care"? You're making a claim without giving a valid evidence


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## TiggyBlue

Biggest mistake I've personally seen some other women make, seeing and defining themselves as roles rather than their own person.


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## Caribbean Man

coffee4me said:


> Biggest mistake I made being a woman.
> 
> Mistakenly thought we defined love the same way.
> 
> Me: love is selfless, what can I give to our relationship?
> 
> Him: love is selfish, what am I getting from our relationship?
> 
> Not a criticism of him he simply did not love the same way I did. *That was something I should have figured out long before it smacked me upside the head.*



Lol Coffee,
_You live and you learn._

AMY GRANT ~ House Of Love.

Never to late tho!


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## richie33

Mistake my wife made was putting me on a pedestal and then was shocked when she found I was flawed just like everyone else.


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## john117

With all due respect, do you feel that a population attending church weekly has the same expectations from their children behavior wise than non church goers do?

Do you feel that they would dress or feed or let their kids hang out with others in the same way?


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## Nikita2270

> It wasn't until after I had children that I really began to appreciate the contribution that SAHM's make to society. See, my mom worked all the time that I was growing up. She was a teacher so she was out of school when I was. I never went to day care.
> 
> Before I had children, I was bound and determined that my wife was going to work.. After I had children, I wanted her raising my kids... Plus, my wife embraced being a SAHM.
> 
> I saw the stress my mom was under, trying to work and raise kids. It is so much less stressful when the wife doesn't work.
> 
> Not everybody has a full appreciation of what SAHM's contribute to society.
> 
> And, as far as feminists that discount the contribution SAHM's make.. they are insulting SAHM's. Feminism should be about liberating women to be anything they want to be... and that includes SAHM's. I hold SAHM's in high regard.. I see great value in their contribution to society.


Again, staying at home is a choice.

Its not the hardest job in the world for all women. Maybe if you have a lot of kids...its tough but I had 2 kids, 10 years apart and had I stayed home, I would have spent a lot of time doing nothing.

As a working mom I cook, clean, volunteer at my kid's school, do the laundry, manage the bills, etc. But I also don't leave the entire financial burden to my partner...that's not what I'm about.

I have two girls...one of the most important values I can give them is how to be independent. Money isn't about material things...financial stability gives women the ability to have CHOICES. Without choices, life is limited. I'm teaching my girls about work ethic....which is about EARNING the things you own, not waiting around for someone to give you something.

As a feminist, I think women have every right to make whatever choice they want. But SAHM's are not the most important contributor to society...that's nonsense. Nor is staying at home the hardest job in the world. As a working mom, my job never ends either. I simply switch out my suit & heels for an apron when I get home. Its nonsensical to pit one group against another...its a common theme on this forum and its ridiculous. SAHMs don't have more of a burden that working moms.

Its about choice. You may like your wife to stay at home....my partner prefers that I am not a dependent. He is glad that I'm able to save my fair share for retirement...that I contribute to our home...and that I don't have to ask for money. Life may have been less stressful for your wife...but my life would be full of stress if I had to be a dependent on a man. The very thought is depressing.


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## hambone

ebp123 said:


> It's not a choice when your H doesn't make enough to support the family. I tried to address that; it doesn't make a difference. So I work because I have to. And many many women have to as well.


Yeah, I hear that excuse a lot, "I HAVE to work"... What most of them are really saying is, "I have to work to have all the stuff.. to live the life style I want to live."

I even hear that excuse from women who are making minimum wage or just a little over minimum wage. How much do you figure they are making after they pay for day care, work clothes, lunch, transportation back and forth etc. etc. Consider they don't have time to price shop, to use coupons, and cut expenses other ways. I don't see them making much money in the end. 

I know women who have to work who have weekly pedicures, go to the tanning salon, drive a new car every 2 years etc. etc. etc. Yes, they HAVE to work. 

I guess it comes down to values.. How important is material possessions and keeping up with the Jones'.


----------



## hambone

Nikita2270 said:


> Again, staying at home is a choice.
> 
> Its not the hardest job in the world for all women. Maybe if you have a lot of kids...its tough but I had 2 kids, 10 years apart and had I stayed home, I would have spent a lot of time doing nothing.
> 
> As a working mom I cook, clean, volunteer at my kid's school, do the laundry, manage the bills, etc. But I also don't leave the entire financial burden to my partner...that's not what I'm about.
> 
> I have two girls...one of the most important values I can give them is how to be independent. Money isn't about material things...financial stability gives women the ability to have CHOICES. Without choices, life is limited. I'm teaching my girls about work ethic....which is about EARNING the things you own, not waiting around for someone to give you something.
> 
> As a feminist, I think women have every right to make whatever choice they want. But SAHM's are not the most important contributor to society...that's nonsense. Nor is staying at home the hardest job in the world. As a working mom, my job never ends either. I simply switch out my suit & heels for an apron when I get home. Its nonsensical to pit one group against another...its a common theme on this forum and its ridiculous. SAHMs don't have more of a burden that working moms.
> 
> Its about choice. You may like your wife to stay at home....my partner prefers that I am not a dependent. He is glad that I'm able to save my fair share for retirement...that I contribute to our home...and that I don't have to ask for money. Life may have been less stressful for your wife...but my life would be full of stress if I had to be a dependent on a man. The very thought is depressing.


I am not in a power struggle with my wife. I have never considered her a dependent. She does way more than her share of pulling the load. Being a mom and wife, the way my wife does it, is pretty much a full time job. She could not work and make the contributions she does to our family.

She has never has to ask me for money. I give her my pay check and she handles the money. I haven't routinely written check since we got married.

I have a daughter, she's 18 and in college. She has had a job since she was in High School. She's supposed to be working part time but ends up putting in 40 hours a lot of weeks. She's such a good employee they call her in a lot. She's a full time student and making straight A's. She is very independent. We pay for her college and I'll bet she has more money in the bank than probably 90% of the people on this forum. 

I'm not pitting one group against the other. It is the feminists who discount the contribution to society by SAHM's who are pitting one group against the other. 

Because my wife doesn't work... she can do her chores during the day and then pick the kids up at school. She talks to them all the way home.. they have cookies and milk and just set around and visit, talk to them about what their day was like.. it was a very relaxed attitude around my house. I came home to a very calm house... I didn't have to do chores.. I could visit and play with my kids.

My wife didn't pick the kids up at day care about 5:30, race home, and dive into cooking, washing laundry, cleaning house, clear the table and wash dishes before bathing the kids, putting the kids to bed, taking her bath, going to sleep... back up the next morning to do it again. 

We had a lot of downtime when our kids were growing up... still do. We spent quantity time with our kids and in during that quantity time, quality things happened. 

Many people have told me that they have never seen a father who was more involved with their kids. My wife not working was a major factor in me having time to spend with my kids.


----------



## hambone

john117 said:


> With all due respect, do you feel that a population attending church weekly has the same expectations from their children behavior wise than non church goers do?
> 
> Do you feel that they would dress or feed or let their kids hang out with others in the same way?


I see no relevance to that at all.

What they are reporting to me is that they can tell the difference between kids raised in day care and kids raised at home.

And they weren't wish washy about it. They were very definitive. 

Look, I was skeptical as well. But, after teacher after teacher told me the same thing... They made a believer out of me.

Do you think there was a conspiracy? That all the teachers got together that one Sunday and decided to pull the wool over Hammy's eyes?

The only reason my wife asked the other teachers for their opinion was because I was so skeptical when she first told me that.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

hambone said:


> Yeah, I hear that excuse a lot, "I HAVE to work"... What most of them are really saying is, "I have to work to have all the stuff.. to live the life style I want to live."
> 
> I even hear that *excuse *from women who are making minimum wage or just a little over minimum wage. How much do you figure they are making after they pay for day care, work clothes, lunch, transportation back and forth etc. etc. Consider they don't have time to price shop, to use coupons, and cut expenses other ways. I don't see them making much money in the end.
> 
> I know women who have to work who have weekly pedicures, go to the tanning salon, drive a new car every 2 years etc. etc. etc. Yes, they HAVE to work.
> 
> I guess it comes down to values.. How important is material possessions and keeping up with the Jones'.


There's nothing to excuse. One is not better than the other. 
It shouldn't be assumed that having a woman stay home is a gold standard that we should do whatever it takes to do. It's a choice, no better or worse. 
Some families, like yours, will function better with a SAHP so that choice will be better for them but your family doesn't determine what is important or better for another. 

Women have enough pressure in our lives, we shouldn't have to worry about this stuff. Men don't go to work and have everyone ask them what their excuse is and how dare they value money over spending the day at home!


----------



## Phenix70

Enough already with the SAHM's! 
It's as bad as the damn porn threads.
Start your own thread & stop trying to make either side feel guilt for THEIR choices.
Concern yourself with how you raise your children & let others raise their children their way.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

NobodySpecial said:


> Speak for yourself! We have 2 parents in this house. A Mom and a Dad. We have 2 kids. I work. We clean the house. We parent, even discipline (GASP!) our kids. Kids help. They don't take much in terms of discipline since the ground work was laid when they were small. I am not selfish, but far from selfless! I meet my needs. DH meets my needs. Kids meet my needs. We all met each others' needs.
> 
> If your household is not like that, it is not because you are female!


Except that it is. Find me a man in TAM who feels like he does all the parenting plus work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SurpriseMyself

hambone said:


> Yeah, I hear that excuse a lot, "I HAVE to work"... What most of them are really saying is, "I have to work to have all the stuff.. to live the life style I want to live."
> 
> I even hear that excuse from women who are making minimum wage or just a little over minimum wage. How much do you figure they are making after they pay for day care, work clothes, lunch, transportation back and forth etc. etc. Consider they don't have time to price shop, to use coupons, and cut expenses other ways. I don't see them making much money in the end.
> 
> I know women who have to work who have weekly pedicures, go to the tanning salon, drive a new car every 2 years etc. etc. etc. Yes, they HAVE to work.
> 
> I guess it comes down to values.. How important is material possessions and keeping up with the Jones'.



My H has told me that he when he married me he thought I would work. When I don't, he gets anxious. He is not confident in his ability to provide for our family. So I work. We live a standard middle class life. No manicures and pedicures. I dye my own hair for $3 a box at home. It's not matter of values. I contribute close to half the household expenses. No minimum wage earner here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2galsmom

Phenix70 said:


> Enough already with the SAHM's!
> It's as bad as the damn porn threads.
> Start your own thread & stop trying to make either side feel guilt for THEIR choices.
> Concern yourself with how you raise your children & let others raise their children their way.


:rofl:

And so they too shall be judged . . .


----------



## NobodySpecial

ebp123 said:


> Except that it is. Find me a man in TAM who feels like he does all the parenting plus work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My point is that if anyone feels this way, they should DO something about it. Not assume that that is what their gender is destined to. I am not what "does all the parenting" looks like to you. But from day one, we BOTH did the same stuff. Baths, bed time, diapers. Now it is carting them around, making them do yard work.... When I WAS a sahm, the kids and I did the lion's share of the chores because we had the ability to free up time for fun when Dad was home. Now we all pitch in. Including DH.


----------



## NobodySpecial

lifeistooshort said:


> There are some bratty kids in my neighborhood that run wild and have sahm's.
> The kid next door to us was never in daycare because the parents work opposite shifts and he's a nasty kid with an anger problem. Not being in daycare doesn't guarantee you won't have a nasty kid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It has nothing to do with having a stay at home parent. There is a crisis of parents who have No Idea how do instill discipline in their children.


----------



## hambone

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There's nothing to excuse. One is not better than the other.
> It shouldn't be assumed that having a woman stay home is a gold standard that we should do whatever it takes to do. It's a choice, no better or worse.
> Some families, like yours, will function better with a SAHP so that choice will be better for them but your family doesn't determine what is important or better for another.
> 
> Women have enough pressure in our lives, we shouldn't have to worry about this stuff. Men don't go to work and have everyone ask them what their excuse is and how dare they value money over spending the day at home!


I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that working is a choice for a lot of women. But, rather than say, "I choose to work" they say, "I HAVE to work"... In the cases where it is a choice, it is an excuse.

If a woman is making minimum wage or a little more, I really don't think they are getting ahead when you add it all up.

Not every women want's to stay at home with the kids. Is it possible that a lot of women who say, "I HAVE to work" fall into that category? Especially those that aren't making a lot of money? 

I don't know about functioning and working better. IMO, it's all about values and what's important to you. I placed a very high value on my home life and my family. And less so on material possessions.

Because my wife can manage money so well... we really haven't had to sacrifice a lot materially.


----------



## Ikaika

jld said:


> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?



Asking the question and expecting men will not come up with a laundry list of items.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

NobodySpecial said:


> My point is that if anyone feels this way, they should DO something about it. Not assume that that is what their gender is destined to. I am not what "does all the parenting" looks like to you. But from day one, we BOTH did the same stuff. Baths, bed time, diapers. Now it is carting them around, making them do yard work.... When I WAS a sahm, the kids and I did the lion's share of the chores because we had the ability to free up time for fun when Dad was home. Now we all pitch in. Including DH.


When our second child was 8 months old, my H lost his job. I worked 8 to 5, 5 days a week and he collected unemployment while looking for a new job. Being a stay at home mom isn't a choice we all have. My h is lucky he is married to a woman who can pull a strong salary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

ebp123 said:


> When our second child was 8 months old, my H lost his job. I worked 8 to 5, 5 days a week and he collected unemployment while looking for a new job. Being a stay at home mom isn't a choice we all have. My h is lucky he is married to a woman who can pull a strong salary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was speaking specifically to the Women are so SELLEEEEESSSSS and give to everyone and do it AAAAALLLLL whine.


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## SurpriseMyself

NobodySpecial said:


> I was speaking specifically to the Women are so SELLEEEEESSSSS and give to everyone and do it AAAAALLLLL whine.


Not whining. Stating facts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

ebp123 said:


> Not whining. Stating facts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is nothing factual about "women" having to have this situation. If they have it, it is not about them being female. It is about them never learning how to set effective limits. If YOU chose to do this, it is your choice.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

NobodySpecial said:


> There is nothing factual about "women" having to have this situation. If they have it, it is not about them being female. It is about them never learning how to set effective limits. If YOU chose to do this, it is your choice.


Stating my truth. And I would LOVE to hear from all the stay at home dads out there who say they chose not to work. You know what I say is true, you just don't like it because it doesn't fit nearly into your world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

A lot of women do work because they have to. And lots of women make good money. I get so tired of hearing how some of us work because we want material items. 

We live a middle class lifestyle with 2 incomes. I make 6 figures; my husband makes less than half what I make. Ww would never own a home on his income. Owning a home was very important to both of us. 

We have values. When my son was young, I would have loved to have stayed home. Couldn't do it. Not financially possible.

But stop stereotyping women who work as selfish and materialistic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

ebp123 said:


> Stating my truth. And I would LOVE to hear from all the stay at home dads out there who say they chose not to work. You know what I say is true, you just don't like it because it doesn't fit nearly into your world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know no less than THREE in my town. Don't tell me what I know. But since you keep changing what you are saying, I am no longer sure *what* you are saying! Are you complaining that posters on this thread give WOHMs a hard time for not staying home? Then I am right there with you. They can take their opinions and stuff 'em where the sun don't shine AFIAC.


----------



## pidge70

I work to pay for my salon colored hair, my tanning package, my manicures and oh yeah, I pay some bills too. I also do the majority of the housework, laundry, bill paying, doctor's appts for kids, birthday planning, vacation planning, etc etc. 

I guess I am one selfish hussy as I also plan to go back to college this Fall when our youngest starts kindergarten. 

Could we afford for me to stay home? Probably but, we like not living paycheck to paycheck. Plus, my son thrived in daycare. He has learned so much plus, I think it is important for him to interact with other kids his age. 

As a few other posters have stated, do whatever you feel is best for your own family.


----------



## Ikaika

pidge70 said:


> I work to pay for my salon colored hair, my tanning package, my manicures and oh yeah, I pay some bills too. I also do the majority of the housework, laundry, bill paying, doctor's appts for kids, birthday planning, vacation planning, etc etc.
> 
> I guess I am one selfish hussy as I also plan to go back to college this Fall when our youngest starts kindergarten.
> 
> Could we afford for me to stay home? Probably but, we like not living paycheck to paycheck. Plus, my son thrived in daycare. He has learned so much plus, I think it is important for him to interact with other kids his age.
> 
> As a few other posters have stated, do whatever you feel is best for your own family.


Hey I offered to vacuum today for my wife wearing only my box briefs. 

Oh well, happy Mother's Day, I vacuumed anyway, shorts but no shirt


----------



## pidge70

drerio said:


> Hey I offered to vacuum today for my wife wearing only my box briefs.
> 
> Oh well, happy Mother's Day, I vacuumed anyway, shorts but no shirt


Thank you sir!


----------



## NobodySpecial

drerio said:


> Hey I offered to vacuum today for my wife wearing only my box briefs.
> 
> Oh well, happy Mother's Day, I vacuumed anyway, shorts but no shirt


Offered? You didn't just pick up the machine? When we were first married, DH said something like you didn't clean up the thus and such. His Mom did everything in there house. I looked at him and said, are your legs broken?

That came across as all *****y. I am laughing as I say it.


----------



## tennisstar

Pidge, just remember that many women work to pay the bills. I work to pay the majority of our bills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ikaika

NobodySpecial said:


> Offered? You didn't just pick up the machine? When we were first married, DH said something like you didn't clean up the thus and such. His Mom did everything in there house. I looked at him and said, are your legs broken?
> 
> That came across as all *****y. I am laughing as I say it.


In all honesty, I help out every weekend and the boys have their choirs as well. No one skates.  We all equally mess the house, we all need to contribute to cleaning it up. BTW, wife and I both work full-time, she works harder than I do any day of the week. 

The only time I don't clean is when I have to fix something my brokanic sons decide to work with their heavy hands.


----------



## NobodySpecial

drerio said:


> In all honesty, I help out every weekend and the boys have their choirs as well. No one skates.  We all equally mess the house, we all need to contribute to cleaning it up. BTW, wife and I both work full-time, she works harder than I do any day of the week.
> 
> The only time I don't clean is when I have to fix something my brokanic sons decide to work with their heavy hands.


We don't worry who does how much. We both do the thing. If someone slacks for a week, they generally will say I am over loaded right now and need a break. The other pulls a little harder knowing that their turn for a break will come around. Works fine.

But I agree with your PoV. We all dirty the thing. We all clean it. Kids included.


----------



## NobodySpecial

tennisstar said:


> Pidge, just remember that many women work to pay the bills. I work to pay the majority of our bills.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure why it even matters? What if I WANT to work, which I do actually. My kids are freaking amazing. No one is suffering. There is no problem. Do your thing, and don't let other people bring you down. You are fine, fine.


----------



## NobodySpecial

drerio said:


> In all honesty, I help out every weekend....


I am curious, though, at the use of the phrase "help out". Does that imply not primarily part of your responsibility? Or is it just a manner of speaking?


----------



## Ikaika

NobodySpecial said:


> I am curious, though, at the use of the phrase "help out". Does that imply not primarily part of your responsibility? Or is it just a manner of speaking?


I know my wife does more than me, I am not going to lie about that, but my main places to clean every weekend, kitchen (I can't stand a dirty kitchen, yuk) and I vacuum the main carpeted areas. 

My wife will not let me do laundry due to past experiences with that choir that did not work out so well


----------



## Ikaika

NobodySpecial said:


> *We don't worry who does how much. We both do the thing. If someone slacks for a week, they generally will say I am over loaded right now and need a break*. The other pulls a little harder knowing that their turn for a break will come around. Works fine.
> 
> But I agree with your PoV. We all dirty the thing. We all clean it. Kids included.


I agree with this policy. Our main thing is trying to instill some responsibility into our sons. Training them requires consistency, they are not like the dog they don't train quite as quickly


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## hambone

I rest my case.


----------



## pidge70

tennisstar said:


> Pidge, just remember that many women work to pay the bills. I work to pay the majority of our bills.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't recall stating anything to the contrary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

hambone said:


> I rest my case.


I was not only being facetious, I was also being sarcastic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FrenchFry

I'm not. Damn skippy I love my mani/pedis and I love working for them.  Don't tan though...I should try it out.

Biggest mistake: letting people squish you in a box. If you love working for your mani/pedis or you love staying at home, what anyone has to say doesn't matter.


----------



## Miss Taken

I am currently a SAHM but I haven't always been one, nor will I always be. In a perfect world, I absolutely would. However, if we want to save for retirement - we both have to work. If we ever want to own a house outright - not even in the best of neighborhoods - you got it... work! Both of us have been to college, you'd think we'd be living in the lap of luxury by now lol.

Even now as a SAHM, I work once or twice a week on his days off to help free up some cash. Not now, not ever, not even when I was working for the federal attorney's office has my salary gone to hair and nails and second, third, fourth cars. It goes to bills and student loan debt and savings. I grew up first rich then dirt poor in the same childhood so I know how to stretch a dollar and that is something that will always be with me no matter what is in the bank.

I cook from scratch - including baking our own bread, shop thrifty, know how to sew and hang our laundry on the line for instance. Sure, right now we can "afford" to have me at home - which in reality, means "make do" but it also means we will be stuck where we are and if our economy keeps going as it has, french tips will be even more-so, the least of my concerns.

Working full-time and raising kids is hard. Staying at home with your kids and family full-time is also hard. I just don't think the "war" between SAHM and working moms has ANY value. Unless you are earning around six figures, or living in a tiny off-the-grid shack with solar panels, no plumbing and your own small farm and garden homestead you're going to be worried about money. If you're working, you're worried about time.


----------



## pidge70

FrenchFry said:


> I'm not. Damn skippy I love my mani/pedis and I love working for them.  Don't tan though...I should try it out.
> 
> Biggest mistake: letting people squish you in a box. If you love working for your mani/pedis or you love staying at home, what anyone has to say doesn't matter.


:iagree: I also like being able to buy myself a nice Dooney & Burke if I feel the urge...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

drerio said:


> I agree with this policy. Our main thing is trying to instill some responsibility into our sons. Training them requires consistency, they are not like the dog they don't train quite as quickly


Well, yah. I agree. Your comment about we all make the mess, we all clean it up rang really true with me. We all live here. I am a little better than my husband about making some of these things really family time. We did yard work today. I came in a little later. I went into work in the am. (Gonna get ripped by some for that one.) When I came home a little before noon, the kids were out supposedly working. But their tongues were hanging out, and they were wandering. I gave them the stick. Daddy says you are slacking. This is an until it's done gig, not a 'till 1:00 gig. So pick up your rakes and do the thing. Then I said what are we gonna do to make it fun? DS starts singing. DH brings out the big boom box. Pretty soon it is a lot less work.

I view this kind of living as sharing the time we have. We could have chosen to be grumpy that we had to do yard work. Or we could choose to enjoy the first sunny day in a really long time. I told DD, yah this is not as much fun as spending a sunny day on a boat or whatever. But at the end, you get to look at what you did and feel proud. 

I want my kids to face life knowing what is involved before they have to face it. I want my kids seeing DH and I choosing to be with each other doing yard work. Pulling as a team. I think that is pretty good.


----------



## NobodySpecial

FrenchFry said:


> I'm not. Damn skippy I love my mani/pedis and I love working for them.  Don't tan though...I should try it out.
> 
> Biggest mistake: letting people squish you in a box. If you love working for your mani/pedis or you love staying at home, what anyone has to say doesn't matter.


LOL! I don't like mani/pedis, and I HATE shopping for clothes. I love working because the work I do is cool. The people I work with are inspiring. I spent my time when the kids were small at home with them. And that was wonderful too. I am not going to apologize for working. We can pay our bills! It's wonderful. I am not going to apologize that I pay someone to mop the floor. The proof is in the pudding. My kids are amazing. They are pulling great grades. They are involved in the community both with and GASP without us. Everywhere we go we hear what terrific kids we have. I have done them no disservice working outside of the home. Quite the contrary. My children have the opportunity to see a family model that works based on solving the problem at hand without molds and roles that constrain, based on love and commitment. Not based on what someone else thinks we ought to be doing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Miss Taken said:


> I am currently a SAHM but I haven't always been one, nor will I always be. In a perfect world, I absolutely would. However, if we want to save for retirement - we both have to work. If we ever want to own a house outright - not even in the best of neighborhoods - you got it... work! Both of us have been to college, you'd think we'd be living in the lap of luxury by now lol.
> 
> Even now as a SAHM, I work once or twice a week on his days off to help free up some cash. Not now, not ever, not even when I was working for the federal attorney's office has my salary gone to hair and nails and second, third, fourth cars. It goes to bills and student loan debt and savings. I grew up first rich then dirt poor in the same childhood so I know how to stretch a dollar and that is something that will always be with me no matter what is in the bank.
> 
> I cook from scratch - including baking our own bread, shop thrifty, know how to sew and hang our laundry on the line for instance. Sure, right now we can "afford" to have me at home - which in reality, means "make do" but it also means we will be stuck where we are and if our economy keeps going as it has, french tips will be even more-so, the least of my concerns.
> 
> Working full-time and raising kids is hard. Staying at home with your kids and family full-time is also hard. I just don't think the "war" between SAHM and working moms has ANY value. Unless you are earning around six figures, or living in a tiny off-the-grid shack with solar panels, no plumbing and your own small farm and garden homestead you're going to be worried about money. If you're working, you're worried about time.



Life is hard! Accept that, embrace it even, and it is a lot less troublesome. I also cook from scratch as does my husband. We all have worries. Don't let them bury you. 

I think you are doing fine, fine. And agree that this war, which you will note is not actually being fought by women in this thread by and large, is a complete waste of time.


----------



## committed4ever

Miss Taken said:


> If we ever want to own a house outright - not even in the best of neighborhoods - you got it... work! Both of us have been to college, you'd think we'd be living in the lap of luxury by now lol.


I'm curious about this. I watch a few shows based in Canada on buying and selling homes. A lot of the buyers seem to have a budget between $700k to $1.2 mil or more. Since that seems to be the going rate I figured average salares must be around 6 figures to support that budget for a house. So figured 2 college grads would, for the most part, average 6 figures, and that you definitely cannot afford a middle class life style with less than that. 

Is this not the case? Are the average salaries of college grads in Canada less than 6 figures. And are the average middle class homes really in that $700k to $1.2 mil range in Canada?

Or are salaries, in comparison to cost of living, pretty much inadequate?


----------



## hambone

committed4ever said:


> I'm curious about this. I watch a few shows based in Canada on buying and selling homes. A lot of the buyers seem to have a budget between $700k to $1.2 mil or more. Since that seems to be the going rate I figured average salares must be around 6 figures to support that budget for a house. So figured 2 college grads would, for the most part, average 6 figures, and that you definitely cannot afford a middle class life style with less than that.
> 
> Is this not the case? Are the average salaries of college grads in Canada less than 6 figures. And are the average middle class homes really in that $700k to $1.2 mil range in Canada?
> 
> Or are salaries, in comparison to cost of living, pretty much inadequate?


I think those shows are bogus... Staged. Those kids... in their early 20's.. looking at million dollar homes. I worked in real estate.. They just don't act like real home buyers.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

committed4ever said:


> I'm curious about this. I watch a few shows based in Canada on buying and selling homes. A lot of the buyers seem to have a budget between $700k to $1.2 mil or more. Since that seems to be the going rate I figured average salares must be around 6 figures to support that budget for a house. So figured 2 college grads would, for the most part, average 6 figures, and that you definitely cannot afford a middle class life style with less than that.
> 
> Is this not the case? Are the average salaries of college grads in Canada less than 6 figures. And are the average middle class homes really in that $700k to $1.2 mil range in Canada?
> 
> Or are salaries, in comparison to cost of living, pretty much inadequate?


The average household income for my town in Alberta is about $100,000 last I checked but there is a lot of difference across the country and like 90% of the people I know personally don't make that much on their own. They would need their spouse to bring them up to that amount. The range I see most often is $40,000- $80,000 per person. 


For a small 2-3 bed, 2 bath house where I live is around $350,000+. When my family sold the home we grew up in, 4 bed, 3 bath, it was about $600,000. They do have million dollar homes around here but you don't need to spend that much.

Don't know how that compares to where you are.


----------



## committed4ever

hambone said:


> I think those shows are bogus... Staged. Those kids... in their early 20's.. looking at million dollar homes. I worked in real estate.. They just don't act like real home buyers.


Yes, I know that a large part of the shows are bogus. The bogus part is "house hunting" part, not the cost of the homes. One of the requirements for one of the shows is you have to have a contract for a house already. the part that is staged is the other houses you look at, you have no intention of buying because you already have the house you want under contract. Another part that is staged is they script your commentary on the various houses as well as what you are looking for. For instance, everyone is porrtrayed as wanting the trinity ... hardwood floors, granite counter tops, stainless steel appliances. Then when that's not what they actually buy, they are scripted to say they will change it out later. 

But the prices for the homes are real. I can't imagine that would be any different in Canada because they have the same producers.


----------



## committed4ever

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The average household income for my town in Alberta is about $100,000 last I checked but there is a lot of difference across the country and like 90% of the people I know personally don't make that much on their own. They would need their spouse to bring them up to that amount. The range I see most often is $40,000- $80,000 per person.
> 
> 
> For a small 2-3 bed, 2 bath house where I live is around $350,000+. When my family sold the home we grew up in, 4 bed, 3 bath, it was about $600,000. They do have million dollar homes around here but you don't need to spend that much.
> 
> Don't know how that compares to where you are.


Hmmm ... not quite that expensive for a 2-3 bed, 2ba house, unless it is in an exclusive neighborhood. However in such neighborhoods, there would hardly be any houses that small ... maybe a few here and there. 

But the salares you mentioned -- $40 to $80k ... that hardly seems sufficient to support those housing prices!


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> That's sweet, over20. Thanks a lot!
> 
> You know, I think I read over on SIM that a man who is sexually satisfied will overlook a lot of faults in his wife, and might stay with her despite other really serious problems. Sex really is that important to men.


It works for some men.

There are men who will still see faults and even cheat on their wife despite her being right in there with him in every way sexually.

Sex is not always the cure-all for marriage that some seem to paint it to be.


----------



## daffodilly

ebp123 said:


> Stating my truth. And I would LOVE to hear from all the stay at home dads out there who say they chose not to work. *You know what I say is true, you just don't like it because it doesn't fit nearly into your world.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wrong. You had the first sentence right.....this is YOUR truth. Not anyone else's. You choose the life you're living, don't assume everyone else is in the same boat.


----------



## daffodilly

FrenchFry said:


> Biggest mistake: letting people squish you in a box. If you love working for your mani/pedis or you love staying at home, what anyone has to say doesn't matter.


:iagree: Here, here!!!


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

committed4ever said:


> Hmmm ... not quite that expensive for a 2-3 bed, 2ba house, unless it is in an exclusive neighborhood. However in such neighborhoods, there would hardly be any houses that small ... maybe a few here and there.
> 
> But the salares you mentioned -- $40 to $80k ... that hardly seems sufficient to support those housing prices!


I honestly don't know how some people afford it but renting prices are high too. Even the food prices here are ridiculous. There was a poll on my FB group recently and $1000/month for a family of 4 was the average. Everything seems to get more expensive by the day 
Back when my Mom was a SAHM they could easily find a home under $100,000 and the incomes weren't that different from now.


----------



## tennisstar

Hambone, what is your issue with working women? That's great that your wife is a SAHM. But that doesn't work for all families. Why such disdain for working women?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Csquare

hambone said:


> I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that working is a choice for a lot of women. But, rather than say, "I choose to work" they say, "I HAVE to work"... In the cases where it is a choice, it is an excuse.
> 
> If a woman is making minimum wage or a little more, I really don't think they are getting ahead when you add it all up.
> 
> Not every women want's to stay at home with the kids. Is it possible that a lot of women who say, "I HAVE to work" fall into that category? Especially those that aren't making a lot of money?
> 
> I don't know about functioning and working better. IMO, it's all about values and what's important to you. I placed a very high value on my home life and my family. And less so on material possessions.
> 
> Because my wife can manage money so well... we really haven't had to sacrifice a lot materially.


I've been a SAHM since my 2nd kid was born - 20 years ago. My oldest was 20 and forced to drop out of college for a year because of severe pain from rheumatoid arthritis. She refused all meds - they are addictive and shut down the immune system. I spent months researching online how to help her out of pain and found the Weston A. Price diet: raw milk, seafood, bone broth, fermented foods. 

This was a kitchen-intensive healing diet. Spent hours shopping, chasing away state regulators who were harassing my raw milk farmers, cooking bone broth and making yogurts etc. 

Pay-off came 2-1/2 years later: daughter recovered her health, free of pain, graduated from college, living on her own and looking forward to the future. 

Absolutely no way we could have done this if I was a working mom.


----------



## tennisstar

We have a low cost of housing here. We make over $140,000 a year, and our home cost us $150,000. I can't imagine being able to buy a more expensive home. Our mortgage is $1350/month. I don't understand how people are paying $300k plus for homes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nikita2270

> I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that working is a choice for a lot of women. But, rather than say, "I choose to work" they say, "I HAVE to work"... In the cases where it is a choice, it is an excuse.


Its not feminists insulting SAHMs...its you insulting working women.

I choose to work. I enjoy my job...I'm good at it. I love the people I work with and I love contributing to my household and having the ability to maintain it on my own. My mom worked really hard to send me to university and I had no intention of letting my education go to waste.

One of the things to consider is that raising children is a phase of life. Its an important, critical phase but children eventually become independent and move on with their own lives. While being a mother is one of the most important roles in my life...its certainly not the only contribution that I feel that I want to make.

Your insults of all working women being spendthrifts is insulting, petty and irritating. I don't waste the money I earn. I work hard to earn it. I don't have a lot of time to shop....I'm working and contributing financially to my household.

And more importantly, staying with my partner is a choice I make everyday. I'm not with him because I'm a dependent of him. I stay with him despite the fact that I'm perfectly capable of managing on my own. You make the commentary that a lot of women HAVE to work but what's really sad is how many women HAVE to stay married because they have boxed themselves into having no other option due to financial dependence.


----------



## Nikita2270

> Hambone, what is your issue with working women? That's great that your wife is a SAHM. But that doesn't work for all families. Why such disdain for working women?


A lot of men are intimidated by the idea of women having choices. Nothing new....


----------



## xakulax

What's the biggest mistake you see women make


Wearing too much perfume


Not communicating what their needs are in a relationship


Not attempting to understand what their partners needs are


letting their weight go 


generalizing assuming all men are the same 


Taking good things for granted which goes for both gender quite frankly


letting self esteem issues get the better of them 


*Not Initiating Sex With Your Partner*


----------



## xakulax

Nikita2270 said:


> *A lot of men are intimidated by the idea of women having choices*. Nothing new....



I am proud to say I am not one of them


----------



## EleGirl

ebp123 said:


> It's not a choice when your H doesn't make enough to support the family. I tried to address that; it doesn't make a difference. So I work because I have to. And many many women have to as well.


There are many women who work because they have to. If I did not work my kids would not have had a place to live, food to eat, etc. This is the case in many families.


----------



## marriagebootcamp

For me, the biggest mistake you see that women make is not loving herself enough. She tends to be busy loving others and fails to value herself.


----------



## hambone

tennisstar said:


> Hambone, what is your issue with working women? That's great that your wife is a SAHM. But that doesn't work for all families. Why such disdain for working women?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No disdain for working women.

My beef is with people who discounts being a SAHM..

A lot of people look down their nose at SAHM's and I think that's wrong.


----------



## hambone

Nikita2270 said:


> A lot of men are intimidated by the idea of women having choices. Nothing new....


Now that is hilarious... Do you really think a LOT of men are intimidated by a woman in the work force?

I am arguing that being a SAHM is a legitimate choice that should not be discounted... 

And, I've got women telling me how they hope their daughters aspire to something more than just being some kept bimbo... So, who is discounting the choice of being a SAHM? Not me.


----------



## hambone

Nikita2270 said:


> Its not feminists insulting SAHMs...its you insulting working women.
> 
> I choose to work. I enjoy my job...I'm good at it. I love the people I work with and I love contributing to my household and having the ability to maintain it on my own. My mom worked really hard to send me to university and I had no intention of letting my education go to waste.
> 
> One of the things to consider is that raising children is a phase of life. Its an important, critical phase but children eventually become independent and move on with their own lives. While being a mother is one of the most important roles in my life...its certainly not the only contribution that I feel that I want to make.
> 
> Your insults of all working women being spendthrifts is insulting, petty and irritating. I don't waste the money I earn. I work hard to earn it. I don't have a lot of time to shop....I'm working and contributing financially to my household.
> 
> And more importantly, staying with my partner is a choice I make everyday. I'm not with him because I'm a dependent of him. I stay with him despite the fact that I'm perfectly capable of managing on my own. You make the commentary that a lot of women HAVE to work but what's really sad is how many women HAVE to stay married because they have boxed themselves into having no other option due to financial dependence.


Oh please Nikita.. I never said ALL women.. You are distorting what I said.


----------



## Miss Taken

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I honestly don't know how some people afford it but renting prices are high too. Even the food prices here are ridiculous. There was a poll on my FB group recently and $1000/month for a family of 4 was the average. Everything seems to get more expensive by the day
> Back when my Mom was a SAHM they could easily find a home under $100,000 and the incomes weren't that different from now.


Groceries are RIDICULOUS! I just went this week and it seems like the prices went up since last week again. Speaking of Alberta, I think that's where the money really is. Or at least, that's what talk-radio would have me believe. I live in Southern Ontario and am constantly hearing that if you want a shot at making it - regardless of what field you studied in, go to work for the pipelines in Alberta and then come back to Ontario.

It definitely feels like there are more employees than jobs. You would be hard pressed to find a decent home under 100,000 here. It's more like 200,000+ and that's a few cities away from Toronto (the major city I'm closest too). Even then, the house is 100 years old and a money pit because of the repairs and renos needed. An average newer middle/class, nothing fancy but decent neighbourhood home is $400,000 and that's the suburbs with an hour+ commute from downtown.




NobodySpecial said:


> Life is hard! Accept that, embrace it even, and it is a lot less troublesome. I also cook from scratch as does my husband. We all have worries. Don't let them bury you.
> 
> I think you are doing fine, fine. And agree that this war, which you will note is not actually being fought by women in this thread by and large, is a complete waste of time.


I agree that life is hard and already do except that.

I was trying to give an example of how not everyone works in order to just spend on manicures and hairstyles, not gripe about my own struggles. Also to try to put an end to the SAHM vs Working mom debate. I was interested in the original topic of the thread and think it got off track... was hoping to help get it back on topic but failed lol.


----------



## 2galsmom

EleGirl said:


> It works for some men.
> 
> There are men who will still see faults and even cheat on their wife despite her being right in there with him in every way sexually.
> 
> Sex is not always the cure-all for marriage that some seem to paint it to be.


You got it!


----------



## EleGirl

hambone said:


> Now that is hilarious... Do you really think a LOT of men are intimidated by a woman in the work force?
> 
> I am arguing that being a SAHM is a legitimate choice that should not be discounted...
> 
> And, I've got women telling me how they hope their daughters aspire to something more than just being some kept bimbo... So, who is discounting the choice of being a SAHM? Not me.


Um, you are the only person on this thread that is using the terms "bimbo" and "kept woman".

No one here is discounting SAHM's.

It's also ok for someone to hope that their daughter grows up to have interests beyond being a SAHM. Just as it's ok for a woman to chose to be a SAHM. It's about a person being able to do what they want to do in their life.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Miss Taken said:


> Groceries are RIDICULOUS! I just went this week and it seems like the prices went up since last week again. Speaking of Alberta, I think that's where the money really is. Or at least, that's what talk-radio would have me believe. I live in Southern Ontario and am constantly hearing that if you want a shot at making it - regardless of what field you studied in, go to work for the pipelines in Alberta and then come back to Ontario.
> 
> It definitely feels like there are more employees than jobs. You would be hard pressed to find a decent home under 100,000 here. It's more like 200,000+ and that's a few cities away from Toronto (the major city I'm closest too). Even then, the house is 100 years old and a money pit because of the repairs and renos needed. An average newer middle/class, nothing fancy but decent neighbourhood home is $400,000 and that's the suburbs with an hour+ commute from downtown.


That's the thing, everyone comes here to get those jobs so there's tons of competition all trying for the same spots. It's not as easy as they make it sound. H did it for a while and it's good money but a hard life. Living in camps, working hard for 3 weeks on/ 1 week off so they are rarely home. It's a lot harder to get your foot in the door now though and you do need experience and tickets.
H has met many people from other provinces who just work there for a few years and send all their money back home and save up until they can quit. It works for some people.


----------



## Nikita2270

> A lot of people look down their nose at SAHM's and I think that's wrong.


Actually you created the strawman that someone was insulting SAHMs and then started ranting and raving. Read back through...no one else said anything about SAHMs. In fact, the complete reverse is true...you were insulting "spendthrift" working women. At least have the coinpurse to own the crap you say.

I don't look down my nose at anyone. People have the right to make whatever choices work for their families. I will admit though that I have very little sympathy for women that make the decision to stay home...then have zero power to deal with getting out of their bad marriages.

If I had a dime for every woman on this forum that complains about having to stay in a bad marriage because they didn't bother to either earn a living or make some kind of a plan for themselves and their children in case something went wrong in their marriage...I'd be rich.

Choices have consequences. And if you make choices with a lot of risk to your children, you need a plan. If you fail to make one, don't expect anyone to feel sorry for you when it goes bad.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

committed4ever said:


> I'm curious about this. I watch a few shows based in Canada on buying and selling homes. A lot of the buyers seem to have a budget between $700k to $1.2 mil or more. Since that seems to be the going rate I figured average salares must be around 6 figures to support that budget for a house. So figured 2 college grads would, for the most part, average 6 figures, and that you definitely cannot afford a middle class life style with less than that.
> 
> Is this not the case? Are the average salaries of college grads in Canada less than 6 figures. And are the average middle class homes really in that $700k to $1.2 mil range in Canada?
> 
> Or are salaries, in comparison to cost of living, pretty much inadequate?


We live in a very low cost area , one of the lower in the country so it seems...the Amish live near us... when I hear what some are paying for rent in a big city..I can't even fathom it.. If our house & property was in another state... a booming area....(with 50 acres) it might be worth half a million or something.. we only paid $100,000 for it 17 yrs ago (though the owners could have gotten a good $20,000 more for it -so we got a deal)...

There is not many good paying Jobs where we are, and unemployment is rampant.. just not enough decent jobs for everyone....our best friends moved to another area so he could finally get a decent job....

... I worry for our children a lot.. my H has one of the better blue collar jobs in our area.. I can not express how THankful we are for his Job...he has guys who whine & moan.. but my H never would... but even on what he makes ..it's still considered lower income for our family size..though we've never lived paycheck to paycheck.. 

Our biggest worry was always Health insurance, with that covered..(which was paramount).... I've always seen the rest as somewhat "containable"... Food is getting so outrageous and Gas (One of our vehicles is a 9 seat Suburban that costs over $100 to fill )... I do gripe a bit.. but we manage well... with money to fall back upon...even what I would call a torrential downpour...

I look upon staying home -like his job ,with such a Thankfulness in my soul.... I do work outside the home (a little)....but it's for such a small amount (approx $4,000 a year) ...it's not worth a mention... There is no skill to what I do.. in this way, this is how Stay At home Moms feel diminished.. it is what it is..

I feel those who Work have it much harder than I.. I would never never never down them, the children that come forth from both sides of the aisle are phenomenal and/or could be messed up.. it goes both ways.. so the fight really is a waste, there is nothing to prove.. I have no beef here.. In real life I have never felt slighted by a working Mother... I get along with many. 

Isn't the big thing what makes for the smoothest running family.. husband & wife in sync... kids thriving.. are we happy ? ...

If the families goals , dreams, aspirations are being met... it's all a blessing.. both sides of the aisle.... 

It's Mothers Day... and this is where my heart is ...they grow so very fast.. I hugged 2 of our kids today and balled...I let them see that too.....this time is very precious to me...I wish I could capture it all and save it in a bottle...I try to do this with pictures... 

It's like this saying....

"*We have this moment to hold in our hands,
And to touch as it slips through our fingers like sand;
Yesterday’s gone, and tomorrow may never come,
But we have this moment, today*!”...

So we should all Do and live our lives with whatever brings us the most happiness... and contentment... but in all things.... be responsible so we can take care of our own..


----------



## lifeistooshort

Nikita2270 said:


> A lot of men are intimidated by the idea of women having choices. Nothing new....


A lot of these same men who want their wives home will rage against alimony if the marriage tanks, particularly if it's her that wants out. This implies an employer employee relationship: if i'm fired or laid off I get severance, but if I quit I get nothing. So in this case the sahm isn't really seen as am equal; she's an employee in good standing until she wants out.

This is a general statement, I have no idea if hambone feels this way and since he's happily married right now i'm not sure we can know how he'd feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nikita2270

> A lot of these same men who want their wives home will rage against alimony if the marriage tanks, particularly if it's her that wants out.


True but its a woman's responsibility to have a plan to take care of herself and her own children.

The divorce rate is simply a fact. And alimony laws are changing. In about 5 years, most states will have laws on the books to strictly term alimony to give SAHP a bit of money and a bit of time to get on their feet but then its over.

When you live in a country that gives women rights...like the right to divorce, the right to earn a living, the right to get an education, the right to drive, etc...the price you pay is that women become responsible for themselves. Adult people should be self-supporting.

There's nothing wrong with making the choice to stay at home but you need to have contingency plans in place. Funds put aside or the ability to quickly go back to work or w/e. A person that stays at home and risks their own children's well-being because they ignore the reality of the risk are very irresponsible in my opinion. The number of women who literally put themselves and their kids into terrible financial situations doing this is outrageous. 

And any man encouraging their wife to put herself in this position isn't much of a man, in my opinion. I guarantee you that if I ever made the decision to stay home, my partner would immediately insist that he start a separate bank account for me just in case....just for my own peace of mind.


----------



## Duguesclin

Nikita2270 said:


> True but its a woman's responsibility to have a plan to take care of herself and her own children.


Is it what feminism has come to, women have to do it all? They need to be responsible for themselves and their kids? The husband may bail out at anytime?

I agree the divorce rate is appalling and many men bear a lot of responsibilities for their failures as well as leaving women on their own with their children. But is the answer to have women do it all?


----------



## tennisstar

I do believe Hambone started the issue with putting down working women. They just were materialistic. 

My son turned out great. He went to daycare some; my grandmother also kept him some until she became ill. I was a teacher when he was young, and that worked well for several years, until I couldn't pay my bills after divorce. I joined the corporate world in order to make it as a single parent. 

Hambone, it is great that your wife and you are happy. But just go back and look at the way you look down at working women. I dint think anyone said anything bad about SAHMs. It was you who started this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> Is it what feminism has come to, women have to do it all? They need to be responsible for themselves and their kids? The husband may bail out at anytime?
> 
> I agree the divorce rate is appalling and many men bear a lot of responsibilities for their failures as well as leaving women on their own with their children. But is the answer to have women do it all?


Women had better protect themselves. O think that is something women don't do. They are so busy living for the kids, etc that they forget to worry about themselves. Divorce is a reality. And even if a woman gets court ordered alimony, more states are only giving it for a few years. Also in my case, my ex ran out and never paid court ordered child support.

I have seen too many women that were left divorced with nothing. No way to earn money, no skills. Money running out. Living in a small apartment in a bad part of town. It is sad to see, but women have to protect themselves. 

When I was married, my ex loved that I worked less hours and made mu family a priority. When we divorced, he brought up that I never contributed much money to the marriage etc. Totally different story. I live in a non alimony state, and I was left with very little. I ended up going bankrupt. It wasn't pleasant. I will never forget that hard learned lesson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Nikita2270 said:


> True but its a woman's responsibility to have a plan to take care of herself and her own children.
> 
> The divorce rate is simply a fact. And alimony laws are changing. In about 5 years, most states will have laws on the books to strictly term alimony to give SAHP a bit of money and a bit of time to get on their feet but then its over.
> 
> When you live in a country that gives women rights...like the right to divorce, the right to earn a living, the right to get an education, the right to drive, etc...the price you pay is that women become responsible for themselves. Adult people should be self-supporting.


AT this time 70% of married women work. Was the laws change that will go a lot higher. It will take away the choice of being a SAHM for most women (and also for the men who want to be SAHDs). 

A smart person who wants to be a SAH will need to negotiate terms with their spouse to make sure that they have money put aside for themselves.


----------



## EleGirl

tennisstar said:


> Women had better protect themselves. O think that is something women don't do. They are so busy living for the kids, etc that they forget to worry about themselves. Divorce is a reality. And even if a woman gets court ordered alimony, more states are only giving it for a few years. Also in my case, my ex ran out and never paid court ordered child support.
> 
> I have seen too many women that were left divorced with nothing. No way to earn money, no skills. Money running out. Living in a small apartment in a bad part of town. It is sad to see, but women have to protect themselves.
> 
> When I was married, my ex loved that I worked less hours and made mu family a priority. When we divorced, he brought up that I never contributed much money to the marriage etc. Totally different story. I live in a non alimony state, and I was left with very little. I ended up going bankrupt. It wasn't pleasant. I will never forget that hard learned lesson.


When I was growing up, my father told all of us girls (I have 4 sisters) to make sure that we had a way to support ourselves because you never know what life will throw your way. This was in the 1960's. He was right.

I've told this same thing to my step daughter and any other young girl who will listen.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Nikita2270 said:


> True but its a woman's responsibility to have a plan to take care of herself and her own children.
> 
> The divorce rate is simply a fact. And alimony laws are changing. In about 5 years, most states will have laws on the books to strictly term alimony to give SAHP a bit of money and a bit of time to get on their feet but then its over.
> 
> When you live in a country that gives women rights...like the right to divorce, the right to earn a living, the right to get an education, the right to drive, etc...the price you pay is that women become responsible for themselves. Adult people should be self-supporting.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with making the choice to stay at home but you need to have contingency plans in place. Funds put aside or the ability to quickly go back to work or w/e. A person that stays at home and risks their own children's well-being because they ignore the reality of the risk are very irresponsible in my opinion. The number of women who literally put themselves and their kids into terrible financial situations doing this is outrageous.
> 
> And any man encouraging their wife to put herself in this position isn't much of a man, in my opinion. I guarantee you that if I ever made the decision to stay home, my partner would immediately insist that he start a separate bank account for me just in case....just for my own peace of mind.


Hey you're preaching to the choir here, I work and make plenty to support myself and my boys if need be. And yes, I work because I damn well want to; not so I can have more stuff as I don't have nearly as much as I can afford, but because I like what I do and I want my own life. That's me. I'm just pointing out the inherent contradiction in people (male or female) that want their spouse home so they can enjoy the benefits of a spouse at home then get po'd when they're on the hook for alimony. a spouse doesn't mean they have to stay married to you. I am raising my sons to look for women that at least can work and make a living, and i'm also teaching then to clean and cook so they can be partners. They will ultimately make their own choices but they should do it from a place where they understand the risks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

I hear you Tennisstar, but don't you think having guys off the hook is bad policy in the long run.

The main reason the US economy is doing well today is because of women working. But aren't we going to run into trouble if we let men take advantage of women this way? It is not sustainable to have women take all the responsibilities.

States have to raise up to the challenge and provide sufficient protection. I know many people want less government, but how do we get men own up to their responsibilities?


----------



## lifeistooshort

Duguesclin said:


> I hear you Tennisstar, but don't you think having guys off the hook is bad policy in the long run.
> 
> The main reason the US economy is doing well today is because of women working. But aren't we going to run into trouble if we let men take advantage of women this way? It is not sustainable to have women take all the responsibilities.
> 
> States have to raise up to the challenge and provide sufficient protection. I know many people want less government, but how do we get men own up to their responsibilities?



It's a real challenge. How do you give women full opportunities and not let men off the hook? Maybe by raising our sons better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Duguesclin said:


> I hear you Tennisstar, but don't you think having guys off the hook is bad policy in the long run.
> 
> The main reason the US economy is doing well today is because of women working. But aren't we going to run into trouble if we let men take advantage of women this way? It is not sustainable to have women take all the responsibilities.
> 
> States have to raise up to the challenge and provide sufficient protection. I know many people want less government, but how do we get men own up to their responsibilities?


How do you think that women working equals letting men off the hook?


----------



## Duguesclin

EleGirl said:


> How do you think that women working equals letting men off the hook?


I did not say that. If a woman wants to work, she should have the freedom to do so. 

What I find alarming is that many working women feel they need to protect themselves and their kids. I am simply arguing that it is not sustainable and lets men off the hook.

Our society should provide women, working or not, with enough protection to not take the whole responsibility of raising kids onto themselves.


----------



## Duguesclin

I personally see a lot of value in a SAHM. That does not mean that I believe women should not work. Every woman should decide what is best for her and I would hope she can rely on her partner, regardless if she is working or not.


----------



## TiggyBlue

It's a shame to appreciate the value in SAHM often results in tearing a working mum down and criticizing there choices (and vice versa).
Both choices will have good and bad points and more importantly what works for one family won't necessarily work for others.


----------



## hambone

Duguesclin said:


> I personally see a lot of value in a SAHM. That does not mean that I believe women should not work. Every woman should decide what is *best for her* and I would hope she can rely on her partner, regardless if she is working or not.



Back when I was single... I made decisions that were in my best interest..

Once, I got married...and had kids.. I made decisions that were best for my family. For example, I changed jobs so I could spend more time with my kids in the evening and on weekends. I gave up a little pay for a higher quality of life.


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## john117

Same here. I'd rather not work for famous better paying software companies if it means 60 or 80 hour weeks..


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> Back when I was single... I made decisions that were in my best interest..
> 
> Once, I got married...and had kids.. I made decisions that were best for my family. For example, I changed jobs so I could spend more time with my kids in the evening and on weekends. I gave up a little pay for a higher quality of life.


This is how I see it, too, ham. My life is not my own anymore. It is not just about what makes me happy, what I want to do. I have a family, and what I do needs to take into consideration the family's best interests.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> This is how I see it, too, ham. My life is not my own anymore. It is not just about what makes me happy, what I want to do. I have a family, and what I do needs to take into consideration the family's best interests.


That's how I see it as well. In my case, the best interest of my children was for me to work. The answer is not the same for each person and/or each family.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Same here. I'd rather not work for famous better paying software companies if it means 60 or 80 hour weeks..


John, are you feeling guilty for not taking that job? I have seen you post about it a few times now.

Please don't feel guilty. If it is not the right fit for your lifestyle, it is not the right fit. You already have a very good job.

And the West Coast might be a more expensive place to live than where you are living now, so that would have to be considered, too.

And people just have different limits. Some people thrive on long, intense workweeks. And some people were not made for that.


----------



## manticore

answering the original question.

they think love and relationships must be like movies, where the the couples are supposed to live in a perpetual state of bliss and happiness if you found your "soulmate".

I blame hollywood and chick flicks for endorsing that deluded mentality


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## jld

EleGirl said:


> That's how I see it as well. In my case, the best interest of my children was for me to work.* The answer is not the same for each person and/or each family*.


This is true. If I had married a different kind of man, I am sure I would have been working. And for the very same reasons mentioned by several people in this thread.


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## SimplyAmorous

manticore said:


> answering the original question.
> 
> they think love and relationships must be like movies, where the the couples are supposed to live in a perpetual state of bliss and happiness if you found your "soulmate".
> 
> I blame hollywood and chick flicks for endorsing that deluded mentality


Awe Manitcore.. I like you...I generally love your posts... 

Can I ask... does anyone REALLY think like this.. I don't see it personally..seems to me Romance has been lost everywhere today...people don't care about it anymore.

I see more downing chick flicks (like your post)...do we want more Horror films and bad endings? 

I personally Love the chick flicks and my H has always called me his soul mate.. .... it hasn't hurt us to enjoy these things..this doesn't mean we don't fight, say nasty things now & then.....we get up on the wrong side of the bed too... and have to apologize, sometimes with tears.... and BAD things happen on our journey...... but really... those same sort of things happen in Chick flicks too ... what good would they be if their was no obstacles or a little drama... it wouldn't be as intense and stimulating...nor the ending as inspirational ... 

I've watched enough, I ought to know!

I am just offering a counter thought here.. not trying to be difficult.. 

I speak from my heart.. because I so Appreciate my H and all he brings to my life.. I am able to talk like this.. I still have my feet planted firmly on the ground.. 

But I must admit...a little old time Romance does keep a  on my face...and in turn I want to keep a happening smile on his face too!!


----------



## Duguesclin

hambone said:


> Back when I was single... I made decisions that were in my best interest..
> 
> Once, I got married...and had kids.. I made decisions that were best for my family. For example, I changed jobs so I could spend more time with my kids in the evening and on weekends. I gave up a little pay for a higher quality of life.


You are right hambone, we need to make decisions that are best for the whole family.

I don't like seeing women put in the position of having to do it all, and then defend doing it all, simply because the men in their lives would not take their responsibilities.

This idea of women to take responsibilities for their kids without counting on the father is simply not sustainable. As a society we need to offer better protection for women and children.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

hambone said:


> No disdain for working women.
> 
> My beef is with people who discounts being a SAHM..
> 
> A lot of people look down their nose at SAHM's and I think that's wrong.


Ironically, it's the SAHMs in my neighborhood that look down on working moms. I've talked to a few other working moms around and they all agree that there's basically a SAHM clique in our neighborhood. They all volunteer at school together, etc. When I was taking my child to the bus stop before work, they barely spoke to me for the 6 months I took my child to the stop each day. And when I volunteered in my child's classroom, same thing. They all sat together and ignored the woman they didn't know. I tried to speak to them, but it was obvious they weren't interested. I've had them shun my kids, too. Not respond to play dates, etc. It's pretty clear who is looking down on whom. I reached out, they did not. They didn't respond.


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## lifeistooshort

ebp123 said:


> Ironically, it's the SAHMs in my neighborhood that look down on working moms. I've talked to a few other working moms around and they all agree that there's basically a SAHM clique in our neighborhood. They all volunteer at school together, etc. When I was taking my child to the bus stop before work, they barely spoke to me for the 6 months I took my child to the stop each day. And when I volunteered in my child's classroom, same thing. They all sat together and ignored the woman they didn't know. I tried to speak to them, but it was obvious they weren't interested. I've had them shun my kids, too. Not respond to play dates, etc. It's pretty clear who is looking down on whom. I reached out, they did not. They didn't respond.



I find this as well in my neighborhood. It's like they're not completely comfortable with their decisions to be sahm's so they have to elevate themselves by telling themselves they're better because "they're not having someone else raise their kids". In fact, they have their little clique that us working moms aren't part of but as as soon as they want to have a gathering in order to sell overpriced cr&p to help support their sahm choice they seem to find my contact information. My company is no good but my money is very good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort

SimplyAmorous said:


> Awe Manitcore.. I like you...I generally love your posts...
> 
> Can I ask... does anyone REALLY think like this.. I don't see it personally..seems to me Romance has been lost everywhere today...people don't care about it anymore.
> 
> I see more downing chick flicks (like your post)...do we want more Horror films and bad endings?
> 
> I personally Love the chick flicks and my H has always called me his soul mate.. .... it hasn't hurt us to enjoy these things..this doesn't mean we don't fight, say nasty things now & then.....we get up on the wrong side of the bed too... and have to apologize, sometimes with tears.... and BAD things happen on our journey...... but really... those same sort of things happen in Chick flicks too ... what good would they be if their was no obstacles or a little drama... it wouldn't be as intense and stimulating...nor the ending as inspirational ...
> 
> I've watched enough, I ought to know!
> 
> I am just offering a counter thought here.. not trying to be difficult..
> 
> I speak from my heart.. because I so Appreciate my H and all he brings to my life.. I am able to talk like this.. I still have my feet planted firmly on the ground..
> 
> But I must admit...a little old time Romance does keep a  on my face...and in turn I want to keep a happening smile on his face too!!


I love period pieces...doesn't mean I want to live in 18th century France. Just sayin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

ebp123 said:


> Ironically, it's the SAHMs in my neighborhood that look down on working moms. I've talked to a few other working moms around and they all agree that there's basically a SAHM clique in our neighborhood. They all volunteer at school together, etc. When I was taking my child to the bus stop before work, they barely spoke to me for the 6 months I took my child to the stop each day. And when I volunteered in my child's classroom, same thing. They all sat together and ignored the woman they didn't know. I tried to speak to them, but it was obvious they weren't interested. I've had them shun my kids, too. Not respond to play dates, etc. It's pretty clear who is looking down on whom. I reached out, they did not. They didn't respond.


I abhor cliques of any kind...and I can only speak for myself and those I know personally.. we've never acted like this.. we would be kind and welcoming to all.. it is only if I felt someone was looking down on me.. maybe cause we drive older cars or something like that.. that would have me shriek away from another woman.. but when someone is friendly to me.. I am friendly back.. I am the type of person that likes to open the door for the under dog and say.. "come on over..what is your name?" and learn more about someone..

I have heard others talk like this on this forum.. I believe it IS the experience of others ...and this is a shame... it must be in higher class cities or something....I belonged to a Mops group (Mothers of Preschoolers) for 14 yrs... even there we had a mixture of working and SAHM's.. there was no such cliques or ever talk like I see here on TAM....

Though I don't really get into volunteering at the school a whole bunch ....that has been hit or miss... which probably makes me a bit of a slacker... but it is what it is.



> *lifeistooshort said*: I find this as well in my neighborhood. It's like they're not completely comfortable with their decisions to be sahm's so they have to elevate themselves by telling themselves they're better because "they're not having someone else raise their kids". In fact, they have their little clique that us working moms aren't part of but as as soon as they want to have a gathering in order to sell overpriced cr&p to help support their sahm choice they seem to find my contact information. My company is tto good but my money is very good.


 I do see lots of SAHM's taking on selling this or that... Premier jewelry parties, Tupperwear... Papered Chef... . I have never tried to sell anything doing parties...I know it takes a ton more dedication than I am willing to put into it and I can not stand trying to sell overpriced stuff.. it would make me feel guilty and I'd feel like a living pest. 

I don't mind going to a party once in a while though ... to help a friend out..(though I usually let them know they are crazy to start selling and they won't make anything but likely loose money, I can be so pessimistic at times)...

They all know.. I only buy if I get the fun & a night of hanging out for a party to make it worth my time...cause really that stuff is so darn overpriced I could spit at it...

Sorry to hear these have been your experiences.. I find that very disheartening..


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## lifeistooshort

SimplyAmorous said:


> I abhor cliques of any kind...and I can only speak for myself and those I know personally.. we've never acted like this.. we would be kind and welcoming to all.. it is only if I felt someone was looking down on me.. maybe cause we drive older cars or something like that.. that would have me shriek away from another woman.. but when someone is friendly to me.. I am friendly back.. I am the type of person that likes to open the door for the under dog and say.. "come on over..what is your name?" and learn more about someone..
> 
> I have heard others talk like this on this forum.. I believe it IS the experience of others ...and this is a shame... it must be in higher class cities or something....I belonged to a Mops group (Mothers of Preschoolers) for 14 yrs... even there we had a mixture of working and SAHM's.. there was no such cliques or ever talk like I see here on TAM....
> 
> Though I don't really get into volunteering at the school a whole bunch ....that has been hit or miss... which probably makes me a bit of a slacker... but it is what it is.
> 
> I do see lots of SAHM's taking on selling this or that... premier jewelry parties, Tupperwear... Papered Chef... . I have never tried to sell anything doing parties...I know it takes a ton more dedication than I am willing to put into it and I can not stand trying to sell overpriced stuff.. it would make me feel guilty and I'd feel like a living pest.
> 
> I don't mind going to a party once in a while though ... to help a friend out..(though I usually let them know they are crazy to start selling and they won't make anything but likely loose money, I can be so pessimistic at times)...
> 
> They all know.. I only buy if I get the fun & a night of hanging out for a party to make it worth my time...cause really that stuff is so darn overpriced I could spit at it...
> 
> Sorry to hear these have been your experiences.. I find that very disheartening..


Oh I don't really have any issue with Pampered Chef or the like, one of my good friends used to sell it and I would go to her parties because we were friends. These b!tches hardly speak to me and certainly don't invite me to any of their social gatherings, I only make the guest list where there's money to be made. That's where my issue lies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikita2270

> Is it what feminism has come to, women have to do it all? They need to be responsible for themselves and their kids? The husband may bail out at anytime?


Feminism simply means choice. But freedom and choices have consequences.

Personally, I made the decision to leave my 21 year marriage. It was the right decision for me and my children. I feel grateful that I was able to make the decision to leave a bad marriage without having to worry about being able to support myself and my children financially. There are so many women that have to stay in crappy marriages due to financial dependency, I'm so grateful I wasn't one of them.

For some women, staying at home is the right decision. And that's great, just as long as you make provisions so that you can protect your children in the event that things don't turn out the way you hope they do. Its the same as life insurance, or flood insurance or car insurance. You hope for the best and plan for the worst. 

I have zero issue with women or men that make the choice to stay home. I have an issue with women or men that make the choice to stay home and don't protect themselves or their children with a plan.

As a working mom, I ENJOY my role...it isn't a burden for me. Feminism and having choices rocks! I love knowing that I can manage financially...its a great comfort to me...its a great comfort to my partner.

I love having the ability to not only enjoy earning a living but I love being able to do whatever I want when I want. It doesn't just mean freedom for me...it means freedom for the man in my life. He doesn't have to bear the burden on his own...I'm here and I have his back in all things. I'm a true partner and a true woman.


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## SimplyAmorous

lifeistooshort said:


> I love period pieces...doesn't mean I want to live in 18th century France. Just sayin.


 Neither would I want to live back in the 18th century...If I did , I probably would have died trying to have children as I needed to be cut open to have our 1st....God Bless the C-section & anesthesia! 

So yeah.... I am very thankful I live today with modern medicine, not to mention Rock Music & I love my internet ...I remember the typewriter..and the record Player... Ipods are sweet !

Yet "the spirit" in those romances transcend TIME....does the yearning for that sort of love & connection with another really die ..as the centuries pass?? 

I believe it still lives in the hearts of many... but there is so many alluring distractions, and other pursuits calling us at every angle.. add to that so many prior hurts ...people back away from love, Trust is too hard to find...we tell ourselves it hurts too much..to go there again.. 

The tide has turned... Men no longer see much incentive to marry -when they find they will get more sex being single.. it's all about pleasure anymore.. not so much Love, devoting our lives to another person ..... it's just how I often see modern Society... Romance has been lost...

I have a niece who is only 22... she already hates men.. why ...because she keeps going after losers in the Bar.. she got in with the wrong crowd in high school...had a stalker, one of her BF's got drunk & died in a fire...others lied to her/ hurt her too many times .... and now she says she'll never get married.. her experiences -opening her heart to these sorts of men have blackened her trust and ideas on love... 

I just happen to find it very sad.. just because some things needed changed back then..to make our world a better place for all.. does not nullify that other things held some value...those are just my thoughts..


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## lifeistooshort

SimplyAmorous said:


> Neither would I want to live back in the 18th century...If I did , I probably would have died trying to have children as I needed to be cut open to have our 1st....God Bless the C-section & anesthesia!
> 
> So yeah.... I am very thankful I live today with modern medicine, not to mention Rock Music & I love my internet ...I remember the typewriter..and the record Player... Ipods are sweet !
> 
> Yet "the spirit" in those romances transcend TIME....does the yearning for that sort of love & connection with another really die ..as the centuries pass??
> 
> I believe it still lives in the hearts of many... but there is so many alluring distractions, and other pursuits calling us at every angle.. add to that so many prior hurts ...people back away from love, Trust is too hard to find...we tell ourselves it hurts too much..to go there again..
> 
> The tide has turned... Men no longer see much incentive to marry -when they find they will get more sex being single.. it's all about pleasure anymore.. not so much Love, devoting our lives to another person ..... it's just how I often see modern Society... Romance has been lost...
> 
> I have a niece who is only 22... she already hates men.. why ...because she keeps going after losers in the Bar.. she got in with the wrong crowd in high school...had a stalker, one of her BF's got drunk & died in a fire...others lied to her/ hurt her too many times .... and now she says she'll never get married.. her experiences -opening her heart to these sorts of men have blackened her trust and ideas on love...
> 
> I just happen to find it very sad.. just because some things needed changed back then..to make our world a better place for all.. does not nullify that other things held some value...those are just my thoughts..



Me too, I would've bled to death.

I think in some ways women are their own worst enemy when it comes to relationships; they give freely to hold onto men without regard to what they want, then they become resentful like your niece. Some of them will stop giving when they get married.....Relationships should meet the needs of both parties. And on top that, many men have come to expect relationships on their terms. I made a post on one thread where I said that after 3 years of dating (yes, plenty of sex) I told my now hb that I wanted to be married and if he didn't I understood but I would keep my options open. You should've seen the group of men on that thread lose it.....I was called a crack wh0re in a business deal, chided for having "got what I wanted over what my hb wanted", ripped to shreds because I had the audacity to speak up for what I wanted. I didn't pressure him, didn't "accidentally" get pregnant, just made my needs known and let him make his own decision. But the group of men present felt that they were entitled to things on their terms so how dare I spesk up, and was I happy that I got what I wanted. No wonder that group is either divorced or having marital trouble.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> I hear you Tennisstar, but don't you think having guys off the hook is bad policy in the long run.
> 
> The main reason the US economy is doing well today is because of women working. But aren't we going to run into trouble if we let men take advantage of women this way? It is not sustainable to have women take all the responsibilities.
> 
> States have to raise up to the challenge and provide sufficient protection. I know many people want less government, but how do we get men own up to their responsibilities?


Dug, I don't think of it as letting men off the hook. In my situation, my ex never paid me a cent after we divorced. I raised my son myself. I don't think anyone owes me anything. If I choose to be dependent on a man and that marriage came to an end, I sure better know how to provide for myself. Just the way life is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Lol, life. I did not see the thread, but I can imagine it. And considering I hemorrhaged after my first 3 births, I would have bled to death, too. Here's to modern medicine! :toast:

I said in my opening post that I think the worst mistake women make is not valuing themselves. Part of not valuing oneself is not knowing, or maybe not being able, to let go of someone who does not value us. 

I truly believe rejection is a gift. It opens the door for the right person to eventually come along.


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## Duguesclin

tennisstar said:


> Dug, I don't think of it as letting men off the hook. In my situation, my ex never paid me a cent after we divorced. I raised my son myself. I don't think anyone owes me anything. If I choose to be dependent on a man and that marriage came to an end, I sure better know how to provide for myself. Just the way life is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you absolving men of all responsibilities? Is this world now where men can play and women have to take 100% of the responsibilities? Take on all the stress on their shoulders? And men don't have to look twice?

I don't think that is a healthy society. I certainly don't want my daughter to be living that way.


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## hambone

lifeistooshort said:


> Me too, I would've bled to death.
> 
> I think in some ways women are their own worst enemy when it comes to relationships; they give freely to hold onto men without regard to what they want, then they become resentful like your niece. Some of them will stop giving when they get married.....Relationships should meet the needs of both parties. And on top that, many men have come to expect relationships on their terms. I made a post on one thread where I said that after 3 years of dating (yes, plenty of sex) I told my now hb that I wanted to be married and if he didn't I understood but I would keep my options open. You should've seen the group of men on that thread lose it.....I was called a crack wh0re in a business deal, chided for having "got what I wanted over what my hb wanted", ripped to shreds because I had the audacity to speak up for what I wanted. I didn't pressure him, didn't "accidentally" get pregnant, just made my needs known and let him make his own decision. But the group of men present felt that they were entitled to things on their terms so how dare I spesk up, and was I happy that I got what I wanted. No wonder that group is either divorced or having marital trouble.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm with you 100%... If you want to be married... and you've given a guy 18 months or so... and he's not talking about your future together as husband and wife. Look some place else. IMO, you didn't threaten him. You just told him what you were going to do.


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## manticore

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am just offering a counter thought here.. not trying to be difficult..


your counter point is valid and I reread my post and yes is sounds crude and as if I am saying that all women think like this which was not my intention

I think I answered as if a were talking to a male friend and he asked me what have you seen in women that you see as a mistake (like bar talk), of course this don't mean I think all women think like this or act like this, but I do think that not all women manage good the transition between courtship and dating to a stable relationship (which involves living together, sharing strugles together, kids etc).

as example, I am still single at 31 but in a long term relationship, we dont live together and still we do pretty much whatever we want (night dates, trips together, romatic details) in the other hand more than half my friends are married and some of them with kids, I have been told from more than one of my friends's wives (who also are my friends, some of them since college) that they are not as happy as they thought they would be in their married life and that wish their husbands (my friends) were more like me, but well of course I can be more romatic, put attetion to details and spend more money and time in my girflriend, I dont have mortage to pay, I don't have to spend time raising a kid, I don't have to deprive my sleep taking care of a toddler (yet I hope one day I will have to do it), my full attention and free time can go to my GF and if we need one day a week of time for ourselves we still can have it in our own places, so my life is easier than that of married people but I am aware of it, I know that marriage needs commitment and sometimes sacrifice but it also have its rewards.

if you are wondering what have I said to these women, is exactly what I posted here but in all cases I felt that they thought I was defending my friends instead of accepting that their husbands could put more effort in the marriage.

I know that some men also enter in the marriage without the expectation of the resposability that they really have to carry and some want to have the freedom of a single man (regarding free time as going to the bar with the friends, watching games, going to parties, not giving explanations to anyone, etc) , but of course the question of the thread was direccted from the male point of view.


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## TiggyBlue

Cake on too much make up.


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## FrenchFry

TiggyBlue said:


> Cake on too much make up.












I kinda love it--you can look like someone else everyday!

But in most cases, totally.


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## TiggyBlue

> I kinda love it--you can look like someone else everyday!
> 
> But in most cases, totally.


Was thinking more 









Which brings up another mistake.
Too much fake tan.


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## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> Are you absolving men of all responsibilities? Is this world now where men can play and women have to take 100% of the responsibilities? Take on all the stress on their shoulders? And men don't have to look twice?
> 
> I don't think that is a healthy society. I certainly don't want my daughter to be living that way.


No, I don't agree with absolving men of all responsibility. My ex should have taken care of his son and paid child support. I shouldn't have been left bankrupt. 

On the other hand, this is not the 50s. Women can't depend on men for a living and to take care of them. Great if they do, but isn't it blind trust to just depend on a man? If a woman stays home, fine. But what about making sure she gets an education and keeps her skills relevant? What about making sure the husband has life insurance provided for her and the kids in case he dies or becomes disabled? 

I live in a subdivision with SAHMs. They act like they have it so hard. It makes me bitter because I don't think they have any idea of what hard is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

TiggyBlue said:


> Was thinking more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which brings up another mistake.
> Too much fake tan.


Oh my gosh! Is that a real person?!


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## jay1365

" Nag, Nag, Nag." - Dirty Harry
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnnieAsh

As someone who lives in a very typical SoCal suburb, most of my friends are SAHM. I also know a few working moms. We are all just MOMS with our own struggles. I've never felt torn down by another woman. I've seen men tear down and belittle a SAHM contribution to her family. It used to make me defensive but now I just shrug.

The biggest mistakes I see women make? Not letting their kids mess up, stumble, and fall. Not taking time to enjoy their husbands and marriage and their own hobbies. Letting someone else define what makes a successful and happy family. Taking on too much then snapping from the pressure.


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## AnnieAsh

TiggyBlue said:


> Was thinking more
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which brings up another mistake.
> Too much fake tan.


She's almost as dark as me! :rofl:


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## hambone

AnnieAsh said:


> As someone who lives in a very typical SoCal suburb, most of my friends are SAHM. I also know a few working moms. We are all just MOMS with our own struggles. I've never felt torn down by another woman. I've seen men tear down and belittle a SAHM contribution to her family. It used to make me defensive but now I just shrug.
> 
> The biggest mistakes I see women make? Not letting their kids mess up, stumble, and fall. Not taking time to enjoy their husbands and marriage and their own hobbies. Letting someone else define what makes a successful and happy family. Taking on too much then snapping from the pressure.


I absolutely agree with parents not allowing their kids to fail... and learn from the experience. Pain is natures way of saying, "don't do that". Pain builds judgment. And it improves your children's hearing.

When my son was about 3 or 4, I was working on a project and he was watching me. I changed drill bits. I sat the hot, used, bit down. My son went to pick it up. I told him it would "bite" him... our code word for hurt. I warned him 3 or 4 times... every time he reached out for it. Finally, he picked it up. Only took an instant to examine it. He dropped it and started crying. I picked him up, raced inside and put his fingers under the cold tap water while I grabbed a cup and filled it with ice water.

My father would have handled things totally different. He would have slapped my hand and told me, 'YOU are going to mind me!!!" He would have turned it into a war of wills.

I could tell my son that a trash can would bite him and he wouldn't go anywhere near it.

Of course, sooner or later, he'd have to have a reminder lesson.

But, to this day. My son has never been rebellious... He's 21 and he still listens to his mom and dad... But, I must say, he is becoming more independent. He's growing up. He's making more of his own decisions, without asking our opinions. Just part of growing up. 

Neither of my children have ever been spanked.


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## SimplyAmorous

manticore said:


> *I think I answered as if a were talking to a male friend and he asked me what have you seen in women that you see as a mistake (like bar talk), of course this don't mean I think all women think like this or act like this, but I do think that not all women manage good the transition between courtship and dating to a stable relationship (which involves living together, sharing strugles together, kids etc)*.


 Maybe you are referring to a "Princess Syndrome" or something...this was discussed on my thread asking the men - how WOMEN can hurt them... 

Talked about this in post #74 >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...-gripe-what-equivalent-male-chauvinism-5.html though I think this is more about some sort of entitlement mentality - not giving back as much as the man is giving or appreciating what he does do for her..

.. I just can't blame Movies or Hollywood for this.. but more how we are raised , what our values are, who we hang with, the choices we make...I do not have any Princess Syndrome in me at all.. but I am a huge Romantic.. and I wouldn't want to change this.. nor would my husband want this zapped from me.. this colors my days, my interactions, how I feel about Life, Love... it doesn't matter that we have 6 kids.. and are busy in our lives.. 

We flirt, we tease, we look back upon memories with Joy, we look forward to being in our Rocking chairs someday, this is still Romantic.. will it all end as I hope.. maybe not!!..and that would be very very .. there are no guarantees in life.... but as long as we're here...let us do and enjoy each other to the fullest...



> as example, I am still single at 31 but in a long term relationship, we dont live together and still we do pretty much whatever we want (night dates, trips together, romatic details) in the other hand more than half my friends are married and some of them with kids, I have been told from more than one of my friends's wives (who also are my friends, some of them since college) *that they are not as happy as they thought they would be in their married life and that wish their husbands (my friends) were more like me, but well of course I can be more romatic, put attetion to details and spend more money and time in my girflriend, I dont have mortage to pay, I don't have to spend time raising a kid, I don't have to deprive my sleep taking care of a toddler (yet I hope one day I will have to do it), my full attention and free time can go to my GF and if we need one day a week of time for ourselves we still can have it in our own places, so my life is easier than that of married people but I am aware of it, I know that marriage needs commitment and sometimes sacrifice but it also have its rewards.*


 See...here is the thing, I don't think ROMANCE has anything to do with money at all... some of us could care less about gifts...going out to eat at expensive restaurants....my H doesn't even plan dates for us, he lets me do that.. but his willingness and enjoyment to be with me.. that means the world to me... the finer things in life are FREE... 

It's all in how 2 people FEEL about each other...what each brings to our lives... we can go pick berries in the back yard with a pan in our hands ...and still feel the Romance.. the joy of being together, in nature.... even with our kids following behind..... we take Cabin vacations at Yogi bear Campground... we end up making love in the loft - while they are sleeping.. This is how I define Romance.. 

I suppose the problem IS.. when people hear that TERM.. they conquer up what it means to them, or how Valentines day has been reduced to Profits/it's lost it's meaning.. everyone scrambling to pacify the wife... on Feb 14th.... many men automatically THINK Women who need consistently whined, dined, flowers & throw in a Cruise Vacation for good measure..... this is not what I think....

I think of Affection... sharing your heart with your lover.. reveling in the little things... a touch... a look... he reaches for my hand ...he loves spending time with me / doesn't matter what we do...







... it's in our laugh (wicked sometimes & other times just adoring)....all of this can be had with a bunch of kids by your side even ...and it doesn't have to cost anything !

***** Taken from this >>>  Are you a Romantic Type? 



> Being Romantic means being sensitive, affectionate, and spritually-inclined.
> 
> The paramount quality of a romantic person is sensitivity. The romantic is a person who FEELS deeply, and attaches a lot of meaning to those feelings. Because of this, the romantic will express him/herself through such things as affection, verbal declarations of love, and meaningful gestures, all of which come from deep within.
> 
> A romantic will perceive a richness of detail that is lost on the non-romantic type -- such things as the fleeting expression of a lover’s eyes. In a split second, the romantic has perceived a hint of sadness there, which the lover quickly tries to hide, by pretending it was never there to begin with. But the romantic saw it, and was touched by it....This takes sensitivity, depth of feeling, as well as spiritual awareness.
> 
> Romantic people LOVE to give love! Romantic types simply want to make sure that their partners feel loved, special, and appreciated. No gesture is either too big or small to show how they feel about their beloved.
> 
> Romance involves the total involvement with another person’s inner world -- their soul, their intellect, their heart. One gives all of oneself to this person, and being romantic certainly expresses how completely one is committed to this person, to being in a relationship with them.
> 
> To sum up, being a romantic entails being sensitive, expressive, and spiritual, not only in regards to one’s beloved, but in one’s life as well, through saturating it with great beauty.





> *if you are wondering what have I said to these women, is exactly what I posted here but in all cases I felt that they thought I was defending my friends instead of accepting that their husbands could put more effort in the marriage*.


 I bet their husbands could put more effort into it.. but who knows what flavor of the Chick Flicks these women are wanting from their men.. is it the feeling ...or is it a Fairy tale ending living in a luxurious mansion....over the simple things I suggested.. and maybe for some men.. that might be Easier to fulfill even -- cause they are busier / have more money....and don't crave that much closeness.. or hanging out together... 

Every couple is so different... I would think if your friends wives are no longer happy... there are some emotional needs that have been left by the wayside... and it likely goes both ways in most of these relationships..as often men & women's needs are different.. have different priorities...and it take a little effort on both their parts to fulfill... and get back to feeling that "stirring" again with each other..



> *I know that some men also enter in the marriage without the expectation of the responsibility that they really have to carry and some want to have the freedom of a single man (regarding free time as going to the bar with the friends, watching games, going to parties, not giving explanations to anyone, etc)* , but of course the question of the thread was directed from the male point of view.


 I think all those red flags can be seen in dating if we are looking close enough....some really shouldn't get married.. they enjoy the single life too much.. I've vouch for that !!! 

Maybe I have it all wrong, but I do think when a man falls hard for a certain woman....something in him wants to BE a better man ...and improve his life..but all of this will flourish in dating... if the man & women both feel this way.. what a beautiful thing.. but again. I see lots of Romance in this scenario..


----------



## committed4ever

tennisstar said:


> I live in a subdivision with SAHMs. They act like they have it so hard. It makes me bitter because I don't think they have any idea of what hard is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you think, then, that SAHM's have it easy?

I think a big factor is how many kids and how old they are. I actually think I have it easy but I only have one 7 month old. Things will change, I'm sure, as she gets older and if we're blessed with more kids. But at varioius stages of being a SAHM, you could be comparing apples to oranges. For instance a working Mom with let's say a 7 and a 10 year old versus a SAHM Mom with an infant under a year, a 2-year old potty training and a 4 year old. The SAHM is probably going to have it much harder than a working Mom in this instance because working Mom has children who are pretty self sufficient, even if there is a lot of running around to do with them (sports, school activities, homework, etc.). But the SAHM is going to be consumed from sunup to sundown and through the night interacting with those children at those ages. They will all be vying for her attention and will want/need something constantly, including sucking on her boobs throughout the day. I don't think you can compare that to the working Mom with 10 and 7 year old.

On the other hand the hardest working of them all is going to be the mother with the infant, 2 year old and 4 year who works and then has to come home to her second job of taking care of the kids and the house. Hopefully the husband is pitching in doing an equal share, but more often than not, he is not. This is where I think working is probably not benefitting this family at all and the extra dollars is not worth the stress. With some financial knowledge and know-how, this type of family would most likely benefit more from the Mom staying home with the kids. In this case, the only thing that working is doing for her is adding more stress and work.

I guess the bottom line is probably this: either your H makes enough to support the fmaily without living from paycheck to paycheck, or both are willing to live that way for a season so that the Mom can be with the kids. If not, then re-thinking the number and spacing of the kids would be beneficial. As far as having something to fall back on, in case something happens to the husband, that's what savings and insurance is for. And in our state the savings and all other community property is split down the middle. It helps to have a sizable nest egg before the kids start coming, too. And it helps to know how to make money outside of a salaried job.


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## coffee4me

lifeistooshort said:


> It's a real challenge. How do you give women full opportunities and not let men off the hook? Maybe by raising our sons better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What would you teach your son that would help him navigate this time when everything is shifting? 

It's so difficult to teach values in a world that no longer knows what to value.


----------



## committed4ever

FrenchFry said:


> I kinda love it--you can look like someone else everyday!
> 
> But in most cases, totally.


Wow, all that contour and concealer made her look like a totally different person! Awesome!


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## committed4ever

AnnieAsh said:


> She's almost as dark as me! :rofl:


Darker than me, and I'm Black! LOL!


----------



## tennisstar

committed4ever said:


> Do you think, then, that SAHM's have it easy?
> 
> I think a big factor is how many kids and how old they are. I actually think I have it easy but I only have one 7 month old. Things will change, I'm sure, as she gets older and if we're blessed with more kids. But at varioius stages of being a SAHM, you could be comparing apples to oranges. For instance a working Mom with let's say a 7 and a 10 year old versus a SAHM Mom with an infant under a year, a 2-year old potty training and a 4 year old. The SAHM is probably going to have it much harder than a working Mom in this instance because working Mom has children who are pretty self sufficient, even if there is a lot of running around to do with them (sports, school activities, homework, etc.). But the SAHM is going to be consumed from sunup to sundown and through the night interacting with those children at those ages. They will all be vying for her attention and will want/need something constantly, including sucking on her boobs throughout the day. I don't think you can compare that to the working Mom with 10 and 7 year old.
> 
> On the other hand the hardest working of them all is going to be the mother with the infant, 2 year old and 4 year who works and then has to come home to her second job of taking care of the kids and the house. Hopefully the husband is pitching in doing an equal share, but more often than not, he is not. This is where I think working is probably not benefitting this family at all and the extra dollars is not worth the stress. With some financial knowledge and know-how, this type of family would most likely benefit more from the Mom staying home with the kids. In this case, the only thing that working is doing for her is adding more stress and work.
> 
> I guess the bottom line is probably this: either your H makes enough to support the fmaily without living from paycheck to paycheck, or both are willing to live that way for a season so that the Mom can be with the kids. If not, then re-thinking the number and spacing of the kids would be beneficial. As far as having something to fall back on, in case something happens to the husband, that's what savings and insurance is for. And in our state the savings and all other community property is split down the middle. It helps to have a sizable nest egg before the kids start coming, too. And it helps to know how to make money outside of a salaried job.


Committed, do you think a working mom's life is easy? Do you know how stressful professional jobs can be these days? The stress, competition, the constant worries about being layed off, the travel with children at home? The long commutes. Yes, that's easy. No sweat at all. Then going home to family wanting dinner, cleaning etc. Yep, easy as can be. 

I agree that having small children is hard. But once they are older, not so hard. And working women don't have a break either. 

So yes, it aggravates me for them to say they have it do hard. Heck bond of them even have young kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

About princessification . . . I was just talking to ds15 about this the other day after some things I read here. I told him to beware the girls who expect expensive things. 

He told me he already knew that, lol. He said that it is important to just enjoy being together, without having to spend much money.

I am also telling our boys _to look beyond the packaging._ Oh, my goodness. I feel like I cannot stress that enough. What is inside is _so very important_.


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## committed4ever

tennisstar said:


> Committed, do you think a working mom's life is easy? Do you know how stressful professional jobs can be these days? The stress, competition, the constant worries about being layed off, the travel with children at home? The long commutes. Yes, that's easy. No sweat at all. Then going home to family wanting dinner, cleaning etc. Yep, easy as can be.
> 
> I agree that having small children is hard. But once they are older, not so hard. And working women don't have a break either.
> 
> So yes, it aggravates me for them to say they have it do hard. Heck bond of them even have young kids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did you read my entire post? I said working Mom with the little kids is going to have it harder than ANY of the others. And no, I do not think that working women have it easy. I don't know how you even came to that conclusion from my post. Heck, the only one that I said has it easy is the SAHM like myself, with only one kid. 

Of course when the children get older, the SAHM's life is a lot easier for her and in most instances a lot easier than the working women's, but there are ALWAYS exceptions. Not every working woman has a high level, stressful job. But if that's what you aspired to do, then kudos for you! Don't understand why you are bitter about doing what you aspired to do.


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## committed4ever

jld said:


> I told him to beware the girls who expect expensive things.


I expect expensive shoes. And I will throw a tantrum if I can't get them. :rofl:

I need to go back and read that Princess stuff on SA's thread. I was a drama queen princess when I first got married -- for about two weeks. Hubby made it clear that was not the path our marriage would be taking. LOL!


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## AnnieAsh

committed4ever said:


> Darker than me, and I'm Black! LOL!


Me too! She's trying to get our rich mahogany skin tone.


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## tennisstar

committed4ever said:


> Did you read my entire post? I said working Mom with the little kids is going to have it harder than ANY of the others. And no, I do not think that working women have it easy. I don't know how you even came to that conclusion from my post. Heck, the only one that I said has it easy is the SAHM like myself, with only one kid.
> 
> Of course when the children get older, the SAHM's life is a lot easier for her and in most instances a lot easier than the working women's, but there are ALWAYS exceptions. Not every working woman has a high level, stressful job. But if that's what you aspired to do, then kudos for you! Don't understand why you are bitter about doing what you aspired to do.


I'm doing what I have to do for my family. My husband doesn't make good money, so someone has to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TiggyBlue

AnnieAsh said:


> Me too! She's trying to get our rich mahogany skin tone.


Problem is it's more Cheetos than mahogany


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> About princessification . . . I was just talking to ds15 about this the other day after some things I read here. I told him to beware the girls who expect expensive things.
> 
> He told me he already knew that, lol. He said that it is important to just enjoy being together, without having to spend much money.
> 
> I am also telling our boys _to look beyond the packaging._ Oh, my goodness. I feel like I cannot stress that enough. What is inside is _so very important_.


Are we bringing up our daughters with too high of expectations of life? 

My DS21 girlfriend says no diamond less than 2ct's looks good on her hand...


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## committed4ever

tennisstar said:


> I'm doing what I have to do for my family. My husband doesn't make good money, so someone has to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you're saying. But you did make some choices later on in life that you didn't have to make which made a high salary a must, wouldn't you say? So isn't your bitterness a tad miss-placed?


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## tennisstar

committed4ever said:


> I understand what you're saying. But you did make some choices later on in life that you didn't have to make which made a high salary a must, wouldn't you say? So isn't your bitterness a tad miss-placed?


We live a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. I think asking for a middle class lifestyle isn't too much to ask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

And I'm not sure what choices you are referring to. You may have me mixed up with someone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## committed4ever

tennisstar said:


> We live a middle class lifestyle, nothing more. I think asking for a middle class lifestyle isn't too much to ask.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it's not if you can afford it. But you just don't seem content so I would have to ask if it's worth it.



tennisstar said:


> And I'm not sure what choices you are referring to. You may have me mixed up with someone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right, and I apologize.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

committed4ever said:


> Did you read my entire post? I said working Mom with the little kids is going to have it harder than ANY of the others. And no, I do not think that working women have it easy. I don't know how you even came to that conclusion from my post. Heck, the only one that I said has it easy is the SAHM like myself, with only one kid.
> 
> Of course when the children get older, the SAHM's life is a lot easier for her and in most instances a lot easier than the working women's, but there are ALWAYS exceptions. Not every working woman has a high level, stressful job. But if that's what you aspired to do, then kudos for you! Don't understand why you are bitter about doing what you aspired to do.


On the heels of this.... It's Mothers day.. 3rd son says nothing to me ... I click on FB mid day...and get this message from him...he gives me this link on You Tube...this is his contribution ... 

World's Toughest Job - #worldstoughestjob - Official Video  Now basically this is something that has went VIRAL ... people are joking about it/cutting it up.....and really this has no mention of SAHM's or working.. it's just about MOM's ...all Moms (if they were there for us , that is)......the ending is very sweet though.. the looks & expressions on their faces... 

So I watched that... then end up saying to him..."Hey that was Over the top !! "...I thank him for the thought....then told him I have a counter for him....and I sent him this LINK Back... 

Bill burr - Most difficult job on the planet  ....(now this one is in comparison to what some of our Husband's do).. and that is not to put myself down.. but I really *do* see it in more the light of this comedian.. Yet I love my role !



> *committed4ever said*: I expect expensive shoes. And I will throw a tantrum if I can't get them.
> 
> I need to go back and read that Princess stuff on SA's thread. I was a drama queen princess when I first got married -- for about two weeks. Hubby made it clear that was not the path our marriage would be taking. LOL!


 Without making this sound bad.. I am sure I would agree with your H's tactics in dealing with you Committed.. I've read your many posts on his money management.. IMPRESSIVE I say!







.... Yeah he's a keeper [email protected]#$%^... and also it sounds he changed his life around -kicked his bad boy ways aside... for you.. so a win / win . 

There are certain things I won't skimp on... like SLR cameras... where we vacation , if I want to go....we'll get there.. we may not stay in the nicest hotel ...we might even do a campground...but if we're out & about the whole day seeing the sites... it's not like we've lost anything at all... Life is full of choices.. sometimes there is so many it is mind boggling ....yet I'm not going to complain about that !


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## jld

hambone said:


> Are we bringing up our daughters with too high of expectations of life?
> 
> My DS21 girlfriend says no diamond less than 2ct's looks good on her hand...


Oh, dear. What have you told your son?

I would be concerned if my son had a girlfriend like that. Not everyone is going to make lots and lots of money.

We just had bands when we got married. $100 apiece. It's the European tradition (dh is from France).


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## soccermom2three

hambone said:


> Are we bringing up our daughters with too high of expectations of life?
> 
> My DS21 girlfriend says no diamond less than 2ct's looks good on her hand...


Have you seen any jewelry store commercials on T.V. lately? My husband and I were making fun of the rings the other night. 

It's like they can't fit enough diamonds on these rings. They are so gaudy. Not only do they have a big single diamond, then that diamond will have a ring of smaller ones around it. Then the bands are now covered with diamonds. It's so over the top.

What happened to a simple band or a solitary diamond.


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## Pamvhv

My kids took and lost my engagement ring. Husband and I went to replace it when things were good but we couldn't find a simple one like I had before so we ended up not doing it.


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## SimplyAmorous

hambone said:


> Are we bringing up our daughters with too high of expectations of life?
> 
> My DS21 girlfriend says no diamond less than 2ct's looks good on her hand...


What do you think about this Hambone? I was raised to work hard , save hard....and it's better to have $$ saved over having new things on credit...

When my H presented his ring to me..would you believe I scolded him on spending TOO MUCH.. I was thinking more about our future.. Oh I loved the 1 carat he got me.. it was the one I admired the most in that mall that day....but I NEVER expected him to buy it.... I felt it was too much!

It's a Living on credit /instant Gratification society today... we have lost the anticipation for many things... so many of our young people want it all NOW.. instead of starting out small / those humble beginnings...Like that old classic ...

"*'And even though we ain't got money,
I'm so in love with you, honey,
And everything will bring a chain of love.
And in the morning, when I rise,
You bring a tear of joy to my eyes
And tell me everything is gonna be alright*.

It's that working towards something...so they have the "cash"... to reduce those payments on that bigger house in the suburbs....many have the sky is the limit in regards to credit... ..then what follows is... the high stress of having to climb the ladder of success or it can all tumble down....this is an amazing amount of pressure for any young family.


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## jld

I hear you, SA. Owing money can feel like a burden.

There is a lot of emphasis on cheating breaking up marriages on TAM. But financial pressure can stress couples out, too.


----------



## coffee4me

Right now the biggest mistake I think women make is buying an uncomfortable bra.


----------



## tennisstar

committed4ever said:


> No, it's not if you can afford it. But you just don't seem content so I would have to ask if it's worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're right, and I apologize.


No problem. I just figured you had me mixed up with someone else.

I am content with a middle class lifestyle. I think it is hard for me sometimes because I have had such difficulty with getting divorced, my ex not paying court mandated child support, being broke, working so hard, traveling etc for years to make ends meet and seeing some SAHMs that have their husbands pay everything say how hard their lives are. Do you see how that could make me bitter?

I think there are some wonderful moms out there, both working and SAHMs. I try to look on the bright side - I do make a good salary. But some days, all the stress just wears me down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Oh, dear. What have you told your son?
> 
> I would be concerned if my son had a girlfriend like that. Not everyone is going to make lots and lots of money.
> 
> We just had bands when we got married. $100 apiece. It's the European tradition (dh is from France).


DS tells us it's not serious.. That he is just having fun..

GF seems to think it's more serious.


----------



## hambone

SimplyAmorous said:


> What do you think about this Hambone? I was raised to work hard , save hard....and it's better to have $$ saved over having new things on credit...
> 
> When my H presented his ring to me..would you believe I scolded him on spending TOO MUCH.. I was thinking more about our future.. Oh I loved the 1 carat he got me.. it was the one I admired the most in that mall that day....but I NEVER expected him to buy it.... I felt it was too much!
> 
> It's a Living on credit /instant Gratification society today... we have lost the anticipation for many things... so many of our young people want it all NOW.. instead of starting out small / those humble beginnings...Like that old classic ...
> 
> "*'And even though we ain't got money,
> I'm so in love with you, honey,
> And everything will bring a chain of love.
> And in the morning, when I rise,
> You bring a tear of joy to my eyes
> And tell me everything is gonna be alright*.
> 
> It's that working towards something...so they have the "cash"... to reduce those payments on that bigger house in the suburbs....many have the sky is the limit in regards to credit... ..then what follows is... the high stress of having to climb the ladder of success or it can all tumble down....this is an amazing amount of pressure for any young family.


I agree. 

Too many people place no value on money in the bank. They live beyond their means. You will never accumulate wealth spending more than you earn.

I have taken great pains to teach my children about money. How it works, how to make it work for you. My son is pretty tight with his money.

DD is even tighter. 

At the same time, I hope they have learned by example how important family is.

When you are truly in love, a big ring, big wedding, big honeymoon just aren't important. My wife and I had a $500 budget and I think we had $150 left over. And I was SOOOOO happy to finally be married to her. When she walked arround the corner... it took my breath away. After the wedding, all I could think of was, "She's mine... she's mine... she's mine.....etc" We've discussed it and she was thinking, "He's mine.. he's mine...etc". Happiest day of my life... without a doubt.


----------



## EleGirl

AnnieAsh said:


> Me too! She's trying to get our rich mahogany skin tone.


She failed... she looks orange.. not mahogany.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

committed4ever said:


> Do you think, then, that SAHM's have it easy?
> 
> I think a big factor is how many kids and how old they are. I actually think I have it easy but I only have one 7 month old. Things will change, I'm sure, as she gets older and if we're blessed with more kids. But at varioius stages of being a SAHM, you could be comparing apples to oranges. For instance a working Mom with let's say a 7 and a 10 year old versus a SAHM Mom with an infant under a year, a 2-year old potty training and a 4 year old. The SAHM is probably going to have it much harder than a working Mom in this instance because working Mom has children who are pretty self sufficient, even if there is a lot of running around to do with them (sports, school activities, homework, etc.). But the SAHM is going to be consumed from sunup to sundown and through the night interacting with those children at those ages. They will all be vying for her attention and will want/need something constantly, including sucking on her boobs throughout the day. I don't think you can compare that to the working Mom with 10 and 7 year old.
> 
> On the other hand the hardest working of them all is going to be the mother with the infant, 2 year old and 4 year who works and then has to come home to her second job of taking care of the kids and the house. Hopefully the husband is pitching in doing an equal share, but more often than not, he is not. This is where I think working is probably not benefitting this family at all and the extra dollars is not worth the stress. With some financial knowledge and know-how, this type of family would most likely benefit more from the Mom staying home with the kids. In this case, the only thing that working is doing for her is adding more stress and work.
> 
> I guess the bottom line is probably this: either your H makes enough to support the fmaily without living from paycheck to paycheck, or both are willing to live that way for a season so that the Mom can be with the kids. If not, then re-thinking the number and spacing of the kids would be beneficial. As far as having something to fall back on, in case something happens to the husband, that's what savings and insurance is for. And in our state the savings and all other community property is split down the middle. It helps to have a sizable nest egg before the kids start coming, too. And it helps to know how to make money outside of a salaried job.


Since you only have 1 child who is 7 months old, I will share this: it doesn't get easier. It just changes. Sure, it is physically demanding early on. Later it can be mentally challenging, especially if you have strong willed or special needs children. 

All the best to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hambone

soccermom2three said:


> Have you seen any jewelry store commercials on T.V. lately? My husband and I were making fun of the rings the other night.
> 
> It's like they can't fit enough diamonds on these rings. They are so gaudy. Not only do they have a big single diamond, then that diamond will have a ring of smaller ones around it. Then the bands are now covered with diamonds. It's so over the top.
> 
> What happened to a simple band or a solitary diamond.


I guess, it's no longer the thought that counts!


The weddings we've been to lately are just as gaudy... 7 and 8 bridesmaids..

We went to one a few months back... I guess they couldn't find enough guys who would agree to be in the wedding so, they had a, "groomswoman".


----------



## SurpriseMyself

hambone said:


> Are we bringing up our daughters with too high of expectations of life?
> 
> My DS21 girlfriend says no diamond less than 2ct's looks good on her hand...


If my daughter said something like that, I'm sorry but I would cry. That is a pure fail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ikaika

coffee4me said:


> Right now the biggest mistake I think women make is buying an uncomfortable bra.



My wife says the same thing.


----------



## lifeistooshort

coffee4me said:


> Right now the biggest mistake I think women make is buying an uncomfortable bra.


Well that and forcing themselves into shoes that aren't shaped like real feet (think pointed toe shoes)...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> DS tells us it's not serious.. That he is just having fun..
> 
> GF seems to think it's more serious.


Oh, dear . . .


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> When you are truly in love, a big ring, big wedding, big honeymoon just aren't important. My wife and I had a $500 budget and I think we had $150 left over. And I was SOOOOO happy to finally be married to her. When she walked arround the corner... it took my breath away. After the wedding, all I could think of was, "She's mine... she's mine... she's mine.....etc" We've discussed it and she was thinking, "He's mine.. he's mine...etc". Happiest day of my life... without a doubt.


Ham, that sounds just like us! Except we used the whole $500! 

We invited 10 people and went to the court commissioner's office. Then it was off to Olive Garden for lunch, and back to our apartment for cake. Then we went to a local landmark, and to a hotel for the night. Next morning, brunch with friends, and a visit to a natural landmark.

And like you said, my very cheap wedding day remains the happiest day of my life!


----------



## committed4ever

lifeistooshort said:


> Well that and forcing themselves into shoes that aren't shaped like real feet (think pointed toe shoes)...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL! If a woman is forcing her foot into any shoe its the wrong size not the wrong style.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I figured this thread would start out great then get dragged into the same old feminist vs non and stayathomemom vs workingmom.

ugh.

The biggest mistakes I see women make? 
Feeling like they have to be the enemy of other women.
Constantly comparing themselves to other women. 
Never being satisfied with the life they have even when that life is pretty damn fantastic.
Answering "nothing" "I'm fine" "It's ok" "no problem" when really that's not how they feel at all and it will come out later in a passive aggressive form.
Putting their kids above their husband.ETA...with this I mean putting all efforts and energy into being a mom and you neglect your marriage.
Talking to their friends,mothers,sisters about marital issues.


----------



## jld

relationshippro said:


> I never ever like to notice the mistakes and weak points of women.. but I just don't like that when they wear lots of make up.. I still can't understand that why they are doing this??


Well, I think some are very artistic and just like make up, clothes, shoes, etc. They express themselves that way.

And some feel like they need it.


----------



## committed4ever

> There are certain things I won't skimp on... like SLR cameras
> 
> 
> 
> My H and I are really into photography. We have purchased our lenses 2nd hand from ebay and Craigslist. Our church has a photography club and they also teach us how to use the cameras. We are not in the club anymore so I have been trying to continue learning online.
> 
> What kind of camera do you use, SA? My H has an older Nikon D40 I think. It is too big for my hands so I have a Sony a33. Both are pretty old by camera standards but they still take great pics.
Click to expand...


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Ham, that sounds just like us! Except we used the whole $500!
> 
> We invited 10 people and went to the court commissioner's office. Then it was off to Olive Garden for lunch, and back to our apartment for cake. Then we went to a local landmark, and to a hotel for the night. Next morning, brunch with friends, and a visit to a natural landmark.
> 
> And like you said, my very cheap wedding day remains the happiest day of my life!


The readers digest version. After I got divorced, I was pretty determined that I would never be married again. Then, I met my future wife and fell head over heels in love. I had this conversation in my head umpteen times a day. "Do you love her? YES!!!! Do you think you'll ever love anyone any more than you love her? NO!!! Is there anything about her that get's on your nerves? NO!! She's PERFECT!!! So, what's the hold up?" And I would grimace...squint my eyes, moan "ohhhhhhh" and wobble my head back and forth. I was just scared.. scared of my own judgment and get into a 2nd miserable marriage. 

She wrote me a "poop or get off the pot letter"... I asked her to marry me on Valentines day. Once I got over that threshold of resistance... I was ready to elope and get married right then. We got married March 7th. We invited 52 people to our wedding and 50 showed up. Because of circumstances, we didn't have a honeymoon.


----------



## committed4ever

jld said:


> Well, I think some are very artistic and just like make up, clothes, shoes, etc. They express themselves that way.
> 
> And some feel like they need it.


You're spot on JLD. I did ballroom dancing in high school and we wore stage makeup in competition. I loved it! My cousins had to do an intervention to get me to tone it down the makeup in every day life. When I started dating my H (first boyfriend) I quickly discovered it could get messy!


----------



## jld

3 weeks from proposal to married? Wow! You work fast, ham! 

But when you know it is the right one, why wait?


----------



## committed4ever

hambone said:


> The readers digest version. After I got divorced, I was pretty determined that I would never be married again. Then, I met my future wife and fell head over heels in love. I had this conversation in my head umpteen times a day. "Do you love her? YES!!!! Do you think you'll ever love anyone any more than you love her? NO!!! Is there anything about her that get's on your nerves? NO!! She's PERFECT!!! So, what's the hold up?" And I would grimace...squint my eyes, moan "ohhhhhhh" and wobble my head back and forth. I was just scared.. scared of my own judgment and get into a 2nd miserable marriage.
> 
> She wrote me a "poop or get off the pot letter"... I asked her to marry me on Valentines day. Once I got over that threshold of resistance... I was ready to elope and get married right then. We got married March 7th. We invited 52 people to our wedding and 50 showed up. Because of circumstances, we didn't have a honeymoon.


how many years did you stay single?


----------



## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> There are certain things I won't skimp on... like SLR cameras
> 
> 
> 
> My H and I are really into photography. We have purchased our lenses 2nd hand from ebay and Craigslist. Our church has a photography club and they also teach us how to use the cameras. We are not in the club anymore so I have been trying to continue learning online.
> 
> What kind of camera do you use, SA? My H has an older Nikon D40 I think. It is too big for my hands so I have a Sony a33. Both are pretty old by camera standards but they still take great pics.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I are into photography too!
> 
> Have been into it for just the fun , but the equipment is very expensive down here and difficult to get , unless it's bought online and shipped.
> 
> Trying to get a Nikon digital SLR right now online.
> Down here it costs about $5K.
> Really expensive.
> But I love to take shots of birds and wildlife, and can't do that with an ordinary camera.
> 
> Do you think it's advisable to purchase a used one online?
> 
> Trying to get some lenses and filters also.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jld

committed4ever said:


> You're spot on JLD. I did ballroom dancing in high school and we wore stage makeup in competition. I loved it! My cousins had to do an intervention to get me to tone it down the makeup in every day life. When I started dating my H (first boyfriend) I quickly discovered it could get messy!


What a cool activity, committed. I bet you are in demand at every wedding dance you go to! 

That is so sweet that you married your first boyfriend. Not everyone can say that. I think that was the case for SA, too. 

You gals sure saved yourselves a lot of heartache. I think a lot of us wish we could say the same . . .

And it is fun to hear about everyone's hobbies!


----------



## committed4ever

Caribbean Man said:


> committed4ever said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are certain things I won't skimp on... like SLR cameras
> 
> My wife and I are into photography too!
> 
> Have been into it for just the fun , but the equipment is very expensive down here and difficult to get , unless it's bought online and shipped.
> 
> Trying to get a Nikon digital SLR right now online.
> Down here it costs about $5K.
> Really expensive.
> But I love to take shots of birds and wildlife, and can't do that with an ordinary camera.
> 
> Do you think it's advisable to purchase a used one online?
> 
> I don't know CM ... our cameras are pretty much entry level DSLRS. the one you're looking at seems more high end. My H Nikon was refurbished bought on line. He's outvof town now but I can find out where and pm you the link. Our lenses we had very good luck with 2nd hand. My camera can use Minolta lenses so there were lots of those on ebay.
> 
> But if you're talking high end the risks seem greater. What model Nikon is it?
> 
> Trying to get some lenses and filters also.
> 
> 
> 
> My response accidently typed within the quote
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

ScarletBegonias said:


> The biggest mistakes I see women make?
> Feeling like they have to be the enemy of other women.
> Constantly comparing themselves to other women.


ITA. The things we do to ourselves and each other are holding us down. It just keeps our focus on trivial things and not what really matters. I know it's a generalization but H has never had to deal with the comparing and gossip about other men's clothes or looks or daddy wars, and back handed compliments from other men. That's not to say that all women do but I've experienced it all a lot. 

A lot of my self-confidence issues about how I look comes from other women and not men. From women I heard so much of "I like those pants on you, they don't make your @ss look so big" and "Wow, I didn't expect your H to be so good looking, how'd you find him" and my favorite from a hair dresser " I think you should go with bangs so we can hide some of your face, and then you can at least have nice hair" So I spent a lot of my time comparing myself to other women and it completely changed how I caused and reacted to relationship and life issues. 

One big thing I'm trying to teach my kids, male and female, is to surround themselves with people who lift them up, help them, compliment them and to do the same for them. As parents our developing their self-esteem only goes so far. I see a lot of little kids already in the comparing and enemy mode, I've had to point it out when it was happening to my 6 year old! It's very sad. I wish we could just let everyone be and do our own thing and not give a crap.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> Ham, that sounds just like us! Except we used the whole $500!
> 
> We invited 10 people and went to the court commissioner's office. Then it was off to Olive Garden for lunch, and back to our apartment for cake. Then we went to a local landmark, and to a hotel for the night. Next morning, brunch with friends, and a visit to a natural landmark.
> 
> And like you said, my very cheap wedding day remains the happiest day of my life!


I wanted a small weding but my dear wife had other plans.

She conspired with my mom and I had the shock of my life when I reached the church , and later reception.

That was the first in a series of battles that I've lost to her over a period of twenty years.

No that I mind loosing to her anyway!

Our inlaws have always been supportive.

Funny thing is my mother always sides with my wife and my mother in law always sides with me.

Anyways, I thankful that I have a good mother and mother in law!


----------



## Caribbean Man

committed4ever said:


> Caribbean Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> committed4ever said:
> 
> 
> 
> My response accidently typed within the quote
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, thanks much in advance!
> 
> We just starting up.
> I know the stuff is a bit high end and professional, but I like the idea of getting a clear shot of a bird in mid flight, or a fish jumping out of the water , if you know what I mean!
> 
> I think there is a term for that, I'm not sure, but I think it's called " frames" or something like that.
> 
> But I'm still just a novice feeling my way around. If I can get a used or reconditioned one, then that would be great!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## hambone

committed4ever said:


> how many years did you stay single?


Well, my first wife and I lived together as man and wife for 2.5 years. Then, we had a 2.5 year legal separation before we got divorced.

I got divorced on my 30th Birthday.

I remarried when I was a few months short of being 36.



I actually met my future wife.. and dated her in Jan. before I got divorced in July. I've posted the whole story but, I'll post it again if you're interested.


----------



## hambone

Caribbean Man said:


> I wanted a small weding but my dear wife had other plans.
> 
> She conspired with my mom and I had the shock of my life when I reached the church , and later reception.
> 
> That was the first in a series of battles that I've lost to her over a period of twenty years.
> 
> No that I mind loosing to her anyway!
> 
> Our inlaws have always been supportive.
> 
> Funny thing is my mother always sides with my wife and my mother in law always sides with me.
> 
> Anyways, I thankful that I have a good mother and mother in law!


Way better to have your mother side with her and your mother siding with you then everything being WWIII and the mothers hating their child's spouse!!! 

My first wedding was a big wedding. My second one, I told my bride, "All I want to know is what time to show up and where to stand!" had a LOT more fun at my second wedding!

Those big wedding... just two many details..too many things to go wrong.


----------



## hambone

Caribbean Man said:


> committed4ever said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are certain things I won't skimp on... like SLR cameras
> 
> My wife and I are into photography too!
> 
> Have been into it for just the fun , but the equipment is very expensive down here and difficult to get , unless it's bought online and shipped.
> 
> Trying to get a Nikon digital SLR right now online.
> Down here it costs about $5K.
> Really expensive.
> But I love to take shots of birds and wildlife, and can't do that with an ordinary camera.
> 
> Do you think it's advisable to purchase a used one online?
> 
> Trying to get some lenses and filters also.
> 
> 
> 
> I bought a Pentax K5 to take pictures of my daughter playing soccer... at night. It has a 12,500 ISO. It allows me to push the exposure to the point that I can freeze the action and get a clear picture. Of course, the object is to freeze just enough so that their legs are a little blurry... to add a sense of action to the image.
> 
> I have enough pixels that I don't have to use a really long lens to get the picture I want. I can blow it up and crop it and get a great pic. I don't have to carry around long, heavy, lens.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Oh, dear . . .


Our DS21 "Dated" the same girl for 4 years starting when he was a junior in HS. Get this, she had the same 1st and last name as our son. She put her name in facebook... and found our son. This girl lived in London, Ontario, canada. A long ways from Louisiana. She pursued my son. 

They broke up (that's another story) his Soph. year in college.

This girl he's dating now. They met their 1st semester in college. She is a civil engineering major just like my son. They had a study group together. Their group went to ball games, out to eat, had a softball intramural team etc. etc. etc. 

You could tell from being around the group that she like our son... a LOT.

So, as soon as he broke up with his girlfriend, she moved right in on him.

She has a winning personality... she is the life of the party. She's the only girl in the group. I mean, there just aren't that many girls in engineering.

He was hesitant to date her. He likes her but doesn't love her. She kinda threw herself at him.

After being in a relationship for 4 years, I think he preferred to be single for a while.. She wasn't having none of that. As soon as he was single, she put the full court press on him.


----------



## john117

Caribbean Man said:


> committed4ever said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are certain things I won't skimp on... like SLR cameras
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I are into photography too!
> 
> 
> 
> Have been into it for just the fun , but the equipment is very expensive down here and difficult to get , unless it's bought online and shipped.
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to get a Nikon digital SLR right now online.
> 
> Down here it costs about $5K.
> 
> Really expensive.
> 
> But I love to take shots of birds and wildlife, and can't do that with an ordinary camera.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think it's advisable to purchase a used one online?
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to get some lenses and filters also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a Nikon DSLR costs $5k i would look into moving
> 
> I'm a long time Nikon DSLR user but for some tasks don't bother with a Nikon. Esp. birds and such. the general consensus is to use Nikon for artistic or architectural or studio or low light or similar duties and Canon for fast moving stuff. You don't see many Nikons in pro sports photography for example...
> 
> Get a Canon 70D and you should be fine. Unless support and service is an issue of course.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## jld

Like I said, ham, Oh, dear . . .

Dh says it is not good for a woman to pursue a man. He says the man is the one who needs to want the woman.

Life is so hard for women. They put their very lives on the line with childbirth. Things are so much easier for them if the men they are with really love them and are ready and willing to sacrifice for them.

That girl is going to be let down, I'm afraid, when your son lets her know how he feels.


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> Those big wedding... just two many details..too many things to go wrong.


And so expensive, too.

We just did not have a lot of money, and dh's family was all in France, and his parents did not speak English . . . It just seemed so complicated and expensive to have a regular family wedding. 

And I just did not really care about a wedding at all. I was just so happy to be in a good, solid relationship.

Dh would have liked a church wedding, though. We did get our marriage blessed by a priest, which made him feel better.

I just could not have done a big church wedding. I would not have had any help, and I didn't think I could handle a big party on my own.


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> 3 weeks from proposal to married? Wow! You work fast, ham!
> 
> But when you know it is the right one, why wait?


Don't forget.. there was a whole lot of windup..

A ton of angst before I managed to overcome my anxieties.


----------



## Miss Independent

jld said:


> Like I said, ham, Oh, dear . . .
> 
> Dh says it is not good for a woman to pursue a man. He says the man is the one who needs to want the woman.
> 
> Life is so hard for women. They put their very lives on the line with childbirth. Things are so much easier for them if the men they are with really love them and are ready and willing to sacrifice for them.
> 
> That girl is going to be let down, I'm afraid, when your son lets her know how he feels.



Thank you! I need it this today


----------



## Created2Write

ebp123 said:


> Stating my truth. And I would LOVE to hear from all the stay at home dads out there who say they chose not to work. You know what I say is true, you just don't like it because it doesn't fit nearly into your world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My dad was a stay-at-home dad. My mom earned much more than he did when they had me, and he chose to stay home. Diapers, cleaning, dishes, running my brother and I to school...he did it all. He chose not to work until my brother and I were in school all day, which was about seven or eight years, and then he went back to college while we went through grade school.


----------



## Created2Write

EleGirl said:


> Um, you are the only person on this thread that is using the terms "bimbo" and "kept woman".
> 
> No one here is discounting SAHM's.
> 
> It's also ok for someone to hope that their daughter grows up to have interests beyond being a SAHM. Just as it's ok for a woman to chose to be a SAHM. It's about a person being able to do what they want to do in their life.


Perfectly said. 

I have a friend who is a very dedicated, loving SAHM. Her husband doesn't make a lot, they have three kids, a house that's too small for their family, and they don't have a lot left over after the bills are paid, but she still feels blessed because she has the ability to choose to stay home. 

My mother was never given that choice. They had me and my dad made less than she did, so he ended up being the SAH parent. My dad tried to make enough for her to, at least, go part time at work, but it didn't work out. She loves her job, she's been very successful with it, and they have a nice house. She wouldn't complain about it at all. But she would say that her one regret is that she wasn't able to spend more time with my brother and I as kids and teens. 

Mothers who work and mothers who stay at home are equally capable of being astonishing, wonderful mothers who raise well behaved, hard working kids.


----------



## hambone

Created2Write said:


> Perfectly said.
> 
> I have a friend who is a very dedicated, loving SAHM. Her husband doesn't make a lot, they have three kids, a house that's too small for their family, and they don't have a lot left over after the bills are paid, but she still feels blessed because she has the ability to choose to stay home.
> 
> My mother was never given that choice. They had me and my dad made less than she did, so he ended up being the SAH parent. My dad tried to make enough for her to, at least, go part time at work, but it didn't work out. She loves her job, she's been very successful with it, and they have a nice house. She wouldn't complain about it at all. But she would say that her one regret is that she wasn't able to spend more time with my brother and I as kids and teens.
> 
> Mothers who work and mothers who stay at home are equally capable of being astonishing, wonderful mothers who raise well behaved, hard working kids.


Actually, Ele girl was wrong. I only used those terms after other posters did.


----------



## Created2Write

hambone said:


> Actually, Ele girl was wrong. I only used those terms after other posters did.


*facepalm* You're focusing on who used the names instead of the actual _point_ of the post?


----------



## lifeistooshort

hambone said:


> Actually, Ele girl was wrong. I only used those terms after other posters did.


What quote called sahm's bimbos? I called the clique in my neighborhood b!tches, but that had nothing to do with sahm's. That had to do with this particular group being b!tches.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hambone

Created2Write said:


> *facepalm* You're focusing on who used the names instead of the actual _point_ of the post?


I only used the term's "bimbo" and "kept woman" after other posters used the terms.

And, I posted several times that I was not denigrating working moms.

Ask you self this, I have been defending SAHM's as being a legitimate choice.. as making a great contribution.. why in the world would I turn around and call them Bimbo's and "kept women"

It was a working mom who used those terms... and it was working moms who posted, "I hope my daughter's aspire to something better than being SAHM's." That's a paraphrase. 

So, don't tell me that working women don't denigrate SAHM's.


----------



## SadSamIAm

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree with low self-esteem and trying to put everyone above themselves. Also not speaking up for your own needs and wants.
> 
> In the circle of women that I know, many of them are the types to go crazy doing everything and anything for their husbands and get very little back. If they complain they are often told "that's just how men are, they don't help around the house, they don't talk about feelings, they look at other girls" and things like that so they just think they have to put up with it instead of demand better for themselves.


I am wondering if the women doing 'everything and anything for their husbands' were doing things like:

- laundry
- cleaning house
- cooking

But rejecting their husbands sexually.

My wife is like that. She says she does everything for me. But in reality, she does very little for me. All of those things are really for her. They are what is important to her.

I wanted a wife to share life with. To be intimate with.


----------



## over20

The ironic thing is that most husband's would probably help more with household tasks because they are being fed sexually in the bedroom. I win win situation for the couple.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> Like I said, ham, Oh, dear . . .
> 
> Dh says it is not good for a woman to pursue a man. He says the man is the one who needs to want the woman.
> 
> Life is so hard for women. They put their very lives on the line with childbirth. Things are so much easier for them if the men they are with really love them and are ready and willing to sacrifice for them.
> 
> That girl is going to be let down, I'm afraid, when your son lets her know how he feels.


Where is the sicking up emoticon?


----------



## committed4ever

NobodySpecial said:


> Where is the sicking up emoticon?


Where is the dislike button?


----------



## Created2Write

hambone said:


> I only used the term's "bimbo" and "kept woman" after other posters used the terms.


Okay. I never said that you used those phrases. When I quoted EleGirl and said I agreed with her, I was referring to her statements about working moms and SAHMs. So, would you mind going back and reading my post again? 



> And, I posted several times that I was not denigrating working moms.


The only problem is that, from what I'm seeing, you _are_ denigrating working moms by saying that SAHMs are better. You can say, "I'm not denigrating working moms", but if your posts go on to imply that women who stay at home are better or more likely to raise well behaved children than mothers who work, then you are, in fact, comparing the two and calling one better than the other. 



> Ask you self this, I have been defending SAHM's as being a legitimate choice.. as making a great contribution.. why in the world would I turn around and call them Bimbo's and "kept women"


Again, you're focusing on something I am not even discussing. I don't know if you called SAHMs bimbos, and frankly, I don't care one way or the other. I would like you to stop arguing a point I haven't made, and pay attention to my overall point, which is that women who choose to work are not any less of a mother than those who stay at home. Would you address that point, please?



> It was a working mom who used those terms... and it was working moms who posted, "I hope my daughter's aspire to something better than being SAHM's." That's a paraphrase.


I really don't care who used what names. I am much more concerned over whether or not you think SAHMs are better than moms who choose to work. I absolutely think that being a SAHM is a legitamate, womderful decision for those mothers who have that choice and want to stay at home. But I _can_ sympathise with the women who want their daughters to aspire to more than that. Oftentimes women who SAH don't have a college education, they haven't had a lot of experience in the workforce, they depend on their husbands to provide for everything, which really puts them in a place to be stuck if their marriage were to ever suffer and fail. God forbid they find themselves in an abusive situation. 

It's not at all that being a SAHM is some kind of cop out or excuse to be lazy. The SAHMs I know work incredibly hard. One woman I look up to as a second mother was a SAHM by choice, and she raised her two daughters and her two step-children, and home schooled her two daughters. She was a very busy woman and was actively involved in their education, something I admired a lot because my parents weren't invested in my education at all after grade school. 

Another SAHM I know had five children that she raised while her husband worked, and then she home schooled them as well. I can not even fathom how she did it, and I don't think anyone here feels that being a SAHM is, in any way, demeaning or pointless or a bad choice. But, in our modern society, I think it's wise for women to get a higher education before choosing to be a SAHM. As we mature and get older, the things we want in life can, and usually do, change. A woman can choose to be a SAHM wife and mother and, later down the line of life, decide that she's ready to get back into the workforce, only now she has no education...no qualifications...I think the point being made is that a woman should empower herself to be a SAHM.



> So, don't tell me that working women don't denigrate SAHM's.


...I didn't say that at all. You're having a totally different conversation with yourself, dude.


----------



## committed4ever

hambone said:


> Well, my first wife and I lived together as man and wife for 2.5 years. Then, we had a 2.5 year legal separation before we got divorced.
> 
> I got divorced on my 30th Birthday.
> 
> I remarried when I was a few months short of being 36.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually met my future wife.. and dated her in Jan. before I got divorced in July. * I've posted the whole story but, I'll post it again if you're interested.*


Thanks! Can you post the link?


----------



## committed4ever

tennisstar said:


> No problem. I just figured you had me mixed up with someone else.
> 
> I am content with a middle class lifestyle. I think it is hard for me sometimes because I have had such difficulty with getting divorced, my ex not paying court mandated child support, being broke, working so hard, traveling etc for years to make ends meet and seeing some SAHMs that have their husbands pay everything say how hard their lives are. *Do you see how that could make me bitter?*
> I think there are some wonderful moms out there, both working and SAHMs. I try to look on the bright side - I do make a good salary. But some days, all the stress just wears me down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I went back and read some of your threads. You've been through a LOT. My hat's off to you.


----------



## Shiksa

I guess I'm in a different boat. I try to be the perfect wife/mother so my H will want to be intimate with me, not the other way around. Not working well...


----------



## committed4ever

Shiksa said:


> I guess I'm in a different boat. I try to be the perfect wife/mother so my H will want to be intimate with me, not the other way around. Not working well...


Sorry to hear that Shiksa. Nobody is perfect, but being the best wife and mother you can be is a worthwhile goal regardless of your husband's reaction. Is he LD? Have medical issues been ruled out?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

SadSamIAm said:


> I am wondering if the women doing 'everything and anything for their husbands' were doing things like:
> 
> - laundry
> - cleaning house
> - cooking
> 
> But rejecting their husbands sexually.
> 
> My wife is like that. She says she does everything for me. But in reality, she does very little for me. All of those things are really for her. They are what is important to her.
> 
> I wanted a wife to share life with. To be intimate with.


 That is sad. For myself and the women I was thinking of when I wrote that we didn't have that situation. It was often just another area where you'd give more than you get, joking about giving BJs but not getting anything in return or still having sex even if you were exhausted or not in the mood. 

That said, I think if a woman is telling you that they do everything for you she is usually saying that it's too much and she wants more from you too. I could be wrong.  

_Someone _has to do the cooking and the cleaning and the kids and the house running. Having help with these things is as important to some women as sex is to some men. Don't just discount is as something unimportant if she tells you it is, just like she shouldn't discount your need for sex. 


While I agree that sometimes this will happen



over20 said:


> The ironic thing is that most husband's would probably help more with household tasks because they are being fed sexually in the bedroom. I win win situation for the couple.


I think that a lot of times women stop sex because their needs aren't being met first and there are plenty of couples who have sex all the time and one doesn't do their fair share. 
Focus on meeting each other's needs and communicating about what they are, yes. But just having sex in hopes he'll step it up and help around the house probably won't work IMO.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> Like I said, ham, Oh, dear . . .
> 
> *Dh says it is not good for a woman to pursue a man. He says the man is the one who needs to want the woman.*
> 
> .


Agreed 100%!

_" Quand il me prend dans les bras,
Il me parle tout bas,
Je vois la vie en rose! _"


Lol, I hope I got that right!


----------



## Caribbean Man

john117 said:


> Caribbean Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> committed4ever said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a Nikon DSLR costs $5k i would look into moving
> 
> I'm a long time Nikon DSLR user but for some tasks don't bother with a Nikon. Esp. birds and such. the general consensus is to use Nikon for artistic or architectural or studio or low light or similar duties and Canon for fast moving stuff. You don't see many Nikons in pro sports photography for example...
> 
> Get a Canon 70D and you should be fine. Unless support and service is an issue of course.
> 
> 
> 
> LoL,
> 
> My mistake about the price, I think it's actually upwards of $6K.
> 
> Thanks for the information on functionality of the Nikon vs Cannon, I would investigate further.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Created2Write

jld, I am curious...why does your husband think the man should pursue the woman? What's wrong with a woman knowing what, and who, she wants and going after them?


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> Agreed 100%!
> 
> _" Quand il me prend dans les bras,
> Il me parle tout bas,
> Je vois la vie en rose! _"
> 
> 
> Lol, I hope I got that right!


Tres bien fait!


----------



## jld

Created2Write said:


> jld, I am curious...why does your husband think the man should pursue the woman? What's wrong with a woman knowing what, and who, she wants and going after them?


Hi, Created. Dh is travelling right now, but will be home in several hours. He said he will respond then.


----------



## Created2Write

Do you not know the answer to the question?


----------



## jld

Created2Write said:


> Do you not know the answer to the question?


Well, I think it is what I said before, that life is difficult for women, and it can be easier if she is with someone who truly loves her and is willing to sacrifice for her.

But he is travelling, and when I called him, the phone line was kind of choppy. I thought it would just be easier if he could respond tonight, when he is out of the car and can speak for himself.


----------



## Created2Write

Hmmm...perhaps I'm misunderstanding...but, life is difficult for men too, right? So, why is it different for a man to pursue a woman than for a woman to pursue a man? Also, would you mind defining "pursue", because I think there's a context barrier here. Do you mean pursue as in initiate a relationship? Or do you mean continue to pursue, even after marriage?


----------



## pidge70

NobodySpecial said:


> Where is the sicking up emoticon?


----------



## pidge70

I'm trying to figure out how life is so damn difficult for women when apparently men are supposed to take care of us?


----------



## john117

Are we talking Aussie / New Zealand dollars here? And with what lenses? The basic Canon 70d body is not far off its USA price from what I'm looking at from the USA.


----------



## committed4ever

jld said:


> Tres bien fait!


Very good ... ?


----------



## jld

committed4ever said:


> Very good ... ?


Very well done! (Sorry about that -- I should have translated! )


----------



## committed4ever

john117 said:


> Are we talking Aussie / New Zealand dollars here? And with what lenses? The basic Canon 70d body is not far off its USA price from what I'm looking at from the USA.


I think that was the Nikon he was quoting. Never knew that about the difference between Nikon vs Canon. I thought photographers just have their preferences. In the photography club we were in there are a quite a few pros. People come and go and when they refer back to someone they will say, oh yeah, he shot with Canon, right? Or "Nikon guy, right?" Most of them were event and portrait professionals, though.


----------



## committed4ever

jld said:


> Very well done! (Sorry about that -- I should have translated! )


Jai parlez un peut francais ... tres tres peut. (probably not even the correct adverb, right? LOL!)


----------



## jld

committed4ever said:


> Jai parlez un peut francais ... tres tres peut. (probably not even the correct adverb, right? LOL!)


< J’ai parlé un peu français. Un très, très peu français.>

Mais, très bien fait. Tu l'as étudié a l’école? (Very well done! Did you study it in school?)


----------



## coffee4me

How about some comic relief in the mommy wars

SAHM - YouTube

Working Mom - YouTube


----------



## jld

Created2Write said:


> Hmmm...perhaps I'm misunderstanding...but, life is difficult for men too, right? So, why is it different for a man to pursue a woman than for a woman to pursue a man? Also, would you mind defining "pursue", because I think there's a context barrier here. Do you mean pursue as in initiate a relationship? Or do you mean continue to pursue, even after marriage?


I am sure he means initiate a relationship. 

We have been married 20 years and have five children. He knows how hard that is, and is always ready to help. He also knows that not all men are that way, and that much is left to their wives.

Dh will answer for himself later, but I can almost guarantee he will say that life is not as difficult for men as it is for women, at least in his view.


----------



## pidge70

coffee4me said:


> How about some comic relief in the mommy wars
> 
> SAHM - YouTube
> 
> Working Mom - YouTube


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Miss Independent

jld said:


> <J'ai parle un peu francais . . . tres, tres peu.>
> 
> 
> 
> Mais tres bien fait! Tu l'as etudie a l'ecole? (Very well done! Did you study it in school?)
> 
> 
> 
> I need to learn how to type the accents!



It's all over the internet. Just do a search atl+130=é


----------



## ocotillo

jld said:


> I need to learn how to type the accents!


You could use Character Map or memorize the Alt codes.

Either way, it's almost more trouble than it's worth...


----------



## jld

coffee4me said:


> How about some comic relief in the mommy wars
> 
> SAHM - YouTube
> 
> Working Mom - YouTube


I know you meant it to be funny, coffee, but I have to tell you, it looks and sounds really, really hard to be a working mom. Personally, I would be a total stress case if I had to do that.

Like committed said, hats off to all the working moms . . . especially the ones making low wages.


----------



## SadSamIAm

jld said:


> I am sure he means initiate a relationship.
> 
> We have been married 20 years and have five children. He knows how hard that is, and is always ready to help. He also knows that not all men are that way, and that much is left to their wives.
> 
> Dh will answer for himself later, but I can almost guarantee he will say that life is not as difficult for men as it is for women, at least in his view.


Life changes.

For the first five years of our relationship (before kids) I would say it was even. We both worked full time and both handled chores around the house. I got paid more, but she worked just as hard.

For the next 8 years, (after kids) she worked much harder than me as a SAHM than I did at work. I was able to build a successful business, but it was easy compared to her having to deal with 3 young children and the house.

The next 12 years (all kids in school) have been easier for her than me. The kids are off to school and she has the day to do as she chooses. Still not easy as she still has cleaning and laundry and cooking to do. 

Hopefully in 5 years or so, the kids should all be out on their own and done university/college and I can retire and it will be back to even.


----------



## TiggyBlue

jld said:


> I know you meant it to be funny, coffee, but I have to tell you, it looks and sounds really, really hard to be a working mom. Personally, I would be a total stress case if I had to do that.
> 
> Like committed said, hats off to all the working moms . . . especially the ones making low wages.


Personally I think it really depends on the dynamics in your marriage to how difficult it is (or being a single mum). Also someone's own temperament comes into play massively imo.


----------



## Nikita2270

> Personally, I would be a total stress case if I had to do that.


I was seriously stressed out during my last maternity leave.

All I could think about was not being able to contribute enough to the kid's college funds and our retirement fund. I had a hard time relaxing knowing that I wasn't able to save the amount that I normally do.

Our oldest kid's tuition was over 65k conservatively. The youngest will probably be far more. I didn't /don't want to make my kids have to start life with thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of student debt. I would have felt like a failure if I couldn't put them through school.

To me, staying at home would be way more stressful than my working life. There's something fun about putting on a suit and heels everyday and earning a living and coming home and getting into sweats to make dinner and handle the housework. I feel like I get a lot of variety and I have the best of both worlds.


----------



## committed4ever

jld said:


> < J’ai parlé un peu français. Un très, très peu français.>
> 
> Mais, très bien fait. Tu l'as étudié a l’école? (Very well done! Did you study it in school?)


Oui. For one year when I couldn't get in 12th grade Spanish. I loved it. Much better than Spanish. But for USA I guess Spanish is more useful.


----------



## coffee4me

jld said:


> I know you meant it to be funny, coffee, but I have to tell you, it looks and sounds really, really hard to be a working mom. Personally, I would be a total stress case if I had to do that.
> 
> Like committed said, hats off to all the working moms . . . especially the ones making low wages.


jld you feel that way just as I feel it must have been really, really hard for my SIL to be a stay at home mom and handle my 2 kids and her 2 kids. I honestly would have come unglued doing what she did. She is so much more patient than I am. I'd go pick up my kids at the end of my hectic work day and ask her if she survived. lol.


----------



## SadSamIAm

TiggyBlue said:


> Personally I think it really depends on the dynamics in your marriage to how difficult it is (or being a single mum). Also someone's own temperament comes into play massively imo.


I agree with this about the person's temperament. 

My wife was a natural mother when the kids were young (not so great once they became teenagers). She was great at it. I have no idea how she was able to do so much with them and still keep everything running.

It was a bunch of work, but not near as much as it would have been for me to do it. 

In the reverse, I found my work fun and exhilerating. My wife would have been stressed like crazy and wouldn't have functioned well at my job.

I guess in this one way, we were pretty good partners.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> Life changes.
> 
> For the first five years of our relationship (before kids) I would say it was even. We both worked full time and both handled chores around the house. I got paid more, but she worked just as hard.
> 
> For the next 8 years, (after kids) she worked much harder than me as a SAHM than I did at work. I was able to build a successful business, but it was easy compared to her having to deal with 3 young children and the house.
> 
> The next 12 years (all kids in school) have been easier for her than me. The kids are off to school and she has the day to do as she chooses. Still not easy as she still has cleaning and laundry and cooking to do.
> 
> Hopefully in 5 years or so, the kids should all be out on their own and done university/college and I can retire and it will be back to even.


I worked for 3 years before having children (I was a teacher). We saved my salary and part of dh's for a down payment on our house. Those years before kids are a great time to save!

Dh mentioned last night that he feels that he has been able to put more effort into his career because I have been home. And for sure we would not have been able to accept his international assignments if I were working.

We have always homeschooled. So while I am a SAHM, I think of myself more as a homeschooling mom.

And as I said, dh has always been a helper. He feels it is his job, after being a provider, to be as helpful to me and the kids as possible. He thinks nothing of making meals or cleaning or running kids places, or anything like that, in addition to the stuff he specifically does, like changing the oil of the car, or fixing things. 

We certainly work together in this family. But I think if you asked dh, he would tell you that he wanted me, he wanted these kids, and that ultimately, he feels responsible for this family.


----------



## jld

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree with this about the person's temperament.
> 
> My wife was a natural mother when the kids were young (not so great once they became teenagers). She was great at it. I have no idea how she was able to do so much with them and still keep everything running.
> 
> It was a bunch of work, but not near as much as it would have been for me to do it.
> 
> In the reverse, I found my work fun and exhilerating. My wife would have been stressed like crazy and wouldn't have functioned well at my job.
> 
> I guess in this one way, we were pretty good partners.


Lol. The little kid years drove me crazy. I love having teenagers! 

All those nights of nursing, the constant carrying of the baby, redirecting toddlers . . . exhausting. And I made life even harder by cooking from scratch and not having TV for 6 years. We won't get into 18 years of washing cloth diapers . . . Ay, yay, yay. 

Dh loves working. Loves, loves, loves working. He was gone for two weeks, came back end of last week, and worked at least two hours each day of the weekend. And woke up to business e-mails at 5 this morning. 

We both see meaning to what we do, and I think that is why it works for us.


----------



## coffee4me

TiggyBlue said:


> Personally I think it really depends on the dynamics in your marriage to how difficult it is (or being a single mum). Also someone's own temperament comes into play massively imo.


Absolutely Tiggy!! 

I think back now and laugh at myself . I so clearly remember my 18 month old son whining about something. I looked at him so oddly and calmly said " I'm sorry, you are going to have to help me out. I have no idea what you want and I really can't handle your attitude" its a good thing he could talk and that was the last time I ever remember him whining.


----------



## Caribbean Man

TiggyBlue said:


> Personally I think it really depends on the dynamics in your marriage to how difficult it is (or being a single mum). Also someone's own temperament comes into play massively imo.


Earlier today I was chatting with a HR manager of a large security company we're running a contract for.

She'a a friend of mine, married well educated , has an MBA and a good position in the company.

So, she asked me what gym I worked out at , said that she wanted to join her husband's gym and go work out with him, but he goes in the morning time. [ She's putting on some size]

We continued chatting...

Long story short, her husband stays at home , does nothing besides hit the gym,[ they don't have kids] and she maintains him.
He doesn't even cook , clean or do the laundry.



It was impossible for me to believe.


I could sense that she was a bit embarrassed.


----------



## jld

Lol, CM. Maybe it is a new trend . . . the Stay At Home Husband?


----------



## coffee4me

I know 2 professional women who do not have children and their husbands do not work. Their husbands are not disabled or anything they are just house husbands. It's always awkward when someone asks them about their husbands. They get uncomfortable as if they don't know what to say.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> < J’ai parlé un peu français. Un très, très peu français.>


Oy!
je parle un peu de francais.

The second thing is not a sentence. But in any cases it is peu DE francais.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jld said:


> Lol, CM. Maybe it is a new trend . . . the Stay At Home Husband?


My god,

I really felt sorry for her because IMO, he is taking advantage of her.
I think she should at least be able to eat a hot meal when she comes home from her job.

But instead, she has to either purchase dinner, or cook dinner when she gets home.


----------



## Duguesclin

NobodySpecial said:


> Oy!
> je parle un peu de francais.
> 
> The second thing is not a sentence. But in any cases it is peu DE francais.


As a native French speaker, and after reading Committed's post, I think she meant she spoke French a while back. So, in this case I would say, "J'ai parlé un peu le français". I prefer "le" to "de" although both are correct.


----------



## jld

NobodySpecial said:


> Oy!
> je parle un peu de francais.
> 
> The second thing is not a sentence. But in any cases it is peu DE francais.


Lol, I guess I should have asked Duguesclin before I responded to committed!


----------



## Duguesclin

Created2Write said:


> jld, I am curious...why does your husband think the man should pursue the woman? What's wrong with a woman knowing what, and who, she wants and going after them?


I am JLD's husband.

I believe, in the long run, it is healthier for a man to initiate the relationship with a woman. That is, if it is to be a serious, long term, relationship.

If a woman is thinking of having children, it is much better to have a committed man than a man whose hand has been forced. If you wish to have children, it is better that the idea comes naturally to the man than forcing him.


----------



## heartsbeating

Underestimating the power of squats.


----------



## FrenchFry

:rofl: :iagree:

Squat. Squat heavy and buy some PZI Jeans.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

committed4ever said:


> My H and I are really into photography. We have purchased our lenses 2nd hand from ebay and Craigslist. Our church has a photography club and they also teach us how to use the cameras. We are not in the club anymore so I have been trying to continue learning online.
> 
> *What kind of camera do you use, SA? My H has an older Nikon D40 I think. It is too big for my hands so I have a Sony a33. Both are pretty old by camera standards but they still take great pics*.


Mine is older too.. but it takes Pics I am satisfied with...if they don't come out the way I want..it's all on the USER....I have a Canon Rebel T1i.... I'm not a Professional or anything so don't need those that cost thousands Plus.. I hardly use most the settings on what I have....

I've never taken a camera class.. ....how wonderful you have that club at your church....at our son's church , they have a "Gear head gang" where they meet up and work on cars, I found that pretty cool.. you learn, you help and you get to know those around you better.. 

My camera fell over one day on the Tripod......and the flash only worked part of the time after that....wouldn't pop up, I got tired of using one of those bulky externals....was thinking of buying a whole New one....like that one being advertised as the Smallest SLR...by canon...but decided not to....

Just getting this fixed was a $200 flat fee...that is the way Canon does it....(even if something smaller, it would have been the same price).... oh well.. it's good to have it working again!

I am big into preserving memories...I still put my photos in albums... we have like 23 albums, I've lost count.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *Duguesclin said*:* I am JLD's husband.
> 
> I believe, in the long run, it is healthier for a man to initiate the relationship with a woman. That is, if it is to be a serious, long term, relationship.*
> 
> If a woman is thinking of having children, it is much better to have a committed man than a man whose hand has been forced. If you wish to have children, it is better that the idea comes naturally to the man than forcing him.


 OMG !! JLD...I love your husband's posts!

I need to catch up on this thread..I missed pages!.... we are on a little getaway - a cabin in the woods...internet access is hit or miss... Today we hope to go on some hiking trails but it stormed all night..I hope it clears up...

You know what Duguesclin.. the way YOU THINK is how I have always felt.. and very strongly at that.. *at least for myself*... Sure us women may have our eyes on this man or that.. but I just always felt it BEST that the man shows his intentions 1st.... I was not going to take that away from myself.. I had a thing about the man coming to find ME... 

I never let a guy know I liked him, if he could not come after me -and show how he felt.. then it would just never happen...I prayed for the right man to walk into my life....and really my H is kinda backwards.. shy, introverted and still HE put himself out there.. that meant so much to me....I could not ask for anyone more devoted in this lifetime....I wanted a Family...that was my dream.











hambone said:


> I guess, it's no longer the thought that counts!
> 
> 
> *The weddings we've been to lately are just as gaudy... 7 and 8 bridesmaids..*
> 
> We went to one a few months back... I guess they couldn't find enough guys who would agree to be in the wedding so, they had a, "groomswoman".


When I was younger, I didn't handle this too well...I didn't want to spend a lot of $$ on a Bridesmaid dress for just a few hours.. and declined being in a wedding -basically saying this....(stick foot in mouth moment !).... I really needed to find a little more tact or white lie my way out of some things!!

But I'm not a Hypocrite....when it came time for our wedding, I felt really BAD that I did that -could have kicked myself [email protected]# 

So guess what we did .. we paid for the girls dresses (4 girls)... I found them on clearance at $19 each walking out of the Mall one day/ Jc Penny & bought them on the spot....(they were pink , strapless & I had a friend who was a seamstress)... then we decided to pay for the guys Tuxes too/ had to make it fair ....I really didn't want to put anyone out.. 

I saved so much on my dress -getting a T-length gown ($150 ).... it wasn't a big deal.. I also took my Mother shopping and bought her a dress... I don't think she even owned one!

We had a BIG ONE.. at 350 people...I really feel had I skipped on this day... I would have deeply regretted it... it's not something anyone in our family has ever done...I remember the giddy anticipation I had planning every detail...

Just saying.. I can understand those who want to have a family & friend celebration...what I would argue is....it doesn't have to cost an arm & a leg ....

I called everywhere, took notes, searched for the lowest prices..talked to others, asked a mountain of questions...we got light beer/ friends passed it out (Is a bar necessary)... we used a Fire hall , decorated ourselves, we rented our wishing well... 

Definitely one of the Happiest day of our lives...







...Moments that will live on in us forever...and we did some things differently!...my Father didn't walk me down the aisle ...who needs Tradition!!.. we paid for all of it ourselves -outside of the catering (his parents offered). 

I did a post devoted to our wedding day (25 yrs ago now...Gawd, where does the time go!)...Here  towards the end of the page...


----------



## hambone

SimplyAmorous said:


> OMG !! JLD...I love your husband's posts!
> 
> I need to catch up on this thread..I missed pages!.... we are on a little getaway - a cabin in the woods...internet access is hit or miss... Today we hope to go on some hiking trails but it stormed all night..I hope it clears up...
> 
> You know what Duguesclin.. the way YOU THINK is how I have always felt.. and very strongly at that.. *at least for myself*... Sure us women may have our eyes on this man or that.. but I just always felt it BEST that the man shows his intentions 1st.... I was not going to take that away from myself.. I had a thing about the man coming to find ME...
> 
> I never let a guy know I liked him, if he could not come after me -and show how he felt.. then it would just never happen...I prayed for the right man to walk into my life....and really my H is kinda backwards.. shy, introverted and still HE put himself out there.. that meant so much to me....I could not ask for anyone more devoted in this lifetime....I wanted a Family...that was my dream.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I was younger, I didn't handle this too well...I didn't want to spend a lot of $$ on a Bridesmaid dress for just a few hours.. and declined being in a wedding -basically saying this....(stick foot in mouth moment !).... I really needed to find a little more tact or white lie my way out of some things!!
> 
> But I'm not a Hypocrite....when it came time for our wedding, I felt really BAD that I did that -could have kicked myself [email protected]#
> 
> So guess what we did .. we paid for the girls dresses (4 girls)... I found them on clearance at $19 each walking out of the Mall one day/ Jc Penny & bought them on the spot....(they were pink , strapless & I had a friend who was a seamstress)... then we decided to pay for the guys Tuxes too/ had to make it fair ....I really didn't want to put anyone out..
> 
> I saved so much on my dress -getting a T-length gown ($150 ).... it wasn't a big deal.. I also took my Mother shopping and bought her a dress... I don't think she even owned one!
> 
> We had a BIG ONE.. at 350 people...I really feel had I skipped on this day... I would have deeply regretted it... it's not something anyone in our family has ever done...I remember the giddy anticipation I had planning every detail...
> 
> Just saying.. I can understand those who want to have a family & friend celebration...what I would argue is....it doesn't have to cost an arm & a leg ....
> 
> I called everywhere, took notes, searched for the lowest prices..talked to others, asked a mountain of questions...we got light beer/ friends passed it out (Is a bar necessary)... we used a Fire hall , decorated ourselves, we rented our wishing well...
> 
> Definitely one of the Happiest day of our lives...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...Moments that will live on in us forever...and we did some things differently!...my Father didn't walk me down the aisle ...who needs Tradition!!.. we paid for all of it ourselves -outside of the catering (his parents offered).
> 
> I did a post devoted to our wedding day (25 yrs ago now...Gawd, where does the time go!)...Here  towards the end of the page...


This last wedding we went to, 2 weeks ago, they had 7 bridesmaids. The brides parents had a huge financial set back about a year ago, I think she was raised fairly affluent but they went bankrupt. So, the bride asked the grooms parents if they could "help"... They said they would "help".. (We are friends with the grooms parents). This bride went and spent money like a drunken sailor. She spent as if there were no limits.. Obviously, when they said they would "Help".. they didn't mean unlimited help. They ended up canceling the limo's and some other things. Half of the seats at the reception were empty. That was $25 per empty seat.

They honey mooned in Ireland. They had no reservations.. no nothing... Bottom line, they were in Chicago.. about to board a plane for Dublin in a few hours and they had NO money. I mean nothing. The groom had his mother's credit card. His mom ended up having to bump the limit on her credit card by 10K for them to afford the honey moon of their dreams.

There just doesn't seem to be a lot of fore thought on the brides parts these days about the cost. 

And, they smeared the cake in each others faces... I just hate that. I would NEVER, EVER do that to my wife. I respect her way too much to do something like that.


I wonder if she would have married him if his Mom and Dad had said we are paying for the rehearsal dinner but that's all.


----------



## jld

hambone said:


> This last wedding we went to, 2 weeks ago, they had 7 bridesmaids. The brides parents had a huge financial set back about a year ago, I think she was raised fairly affluent but they went bankrupt. So, the bride asked the grooms parents if they could "help"... They said they would "help".. (We are friends with the grooms parents). This bride went and spent money like a drunken sailor. She spent as if there were no limits.. Obviously, when they said they would "Help".. they didn't mean unlimited help. They ended up canceling the limo's and some other things. Half of the seats at the reception were empty. That was $25 per empty seat.
> 
> They honey mooned in Ireland. They had no reservations.. no nothing... Bottom line, they were in Chicago.. about to board a plane for Dublin in a few hours and they had NO money. I mean nothing. The groom had his mother's credit card. His mom ended up having to bump the limit on her credit card by 10K for them to afford the honey moon of their dreams.
> 
> There just doesn't seem to be a lot of fore thought on the brides parts these days about the cost.
> 
> And, they smeared the cake in each others faces... I just hate that. I would NEVER, EVER do that to my wife. I respect her way too much to do something like that.
> 
> 
> I wonder if she would have married him if his Mom and Dad had said we are paying for the rehearsal dinner but that's all.


Wow. It is amazing how much money people have to spend on weddings, or to allow to be spent. Sure makes me feel poor. 

Why didn't your friends put some limits on how much they would pay, ham? And isn't the honeymoon usually the groom's expense?

Actually, where was the groom in all this? Is he a passive guy?


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## Eagle3

Hambone, that is beyond nuts your post. Why was no one telling them to reign it in? And I know the grooms parents were trying to be nice but after getting taken advantage of on the wedding they upped their credit limit for a honeymoon they should not have been taking anyway. They are not helping the situatuion at all.

I think its crazy to ask people to pay for things. We got a some from my wifes parents and we paid for majority ourselves. I paid for the rehearsal dinner and we split the honeymoon together. I would have felt guilty seeing her parents spend a ton of money for an event for us. To each their own though.


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## Thebes

Not insisting their needs are met so they will want to meet their husbands needs long term.


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## lifeistooshort

Thebes said:


> Not insisting their needs are met so they will want to meet their husbands needs long term.


And assuming their husbands actually know what their needs are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> And assuming their husbands actually know what their needs are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you experienced this, life?


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## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Have you experienced this, life?


Of course, we all have. I just meant that nobody reads minds so we have to make our needs clear instead of assuming they're obvious. I've had times where I thought my needs were so freaking obvious you'd have to either be stupid or purposely ignore to not know, but my husband really did need a 2x4.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## over20

lifeistooshort said:


> And assuming their husbands actually know what their needs are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good point, however, I do feel a wise wife will teach (in a loving way) her husband what she does need from him. 

Being proactive rather than reactive


----------



## wowzer

Being dependent on someone else. Independence is great for self-esteem. Absolutely do not make someone a priority when that someone makes you an option.


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## Nikita2270

> Being dependent on someone else. Independence is great for self-esteem. Absolutely do not make someone a priority when that someone makes you an option.


Totally agree.

Being independent means having freedom. After I separated, I started dating right away. I had a lot of 1 date meet-ups where I rejected a lot of men that were extremely nice, hard working guys but that I just knew wouldn't work for me due to compatibility issues. I had a list of "deal-breakers"...ie. no rabid sports fan, no golfers, no guys that talked negatively about their ex's, no guys with debt, no guys that my kids wouldn't adore, etc, etc

I remember one of my friend who dates a lot telling me that I'd never meet a guy if I didn't lower my standards. And I told her that I didn't care. I was fine being single...I enjoy being alone and more importantly, I'm completely independent. I own my home...I paid cash for my new car...I have my own retirement savings. There's nothing in life that I want that I can't find a way to get all by myself. And I'd rather be alone than settle for someone who isn't going to make me happy or that I can't make happy.

Funny enough within 6 months of separation, I met the perfect guy. In the 4 years we've been together, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't open my eyes and feel like the luckiest woman on the planet. If he left tomorrow, I would feel completely grateful just to have had any time in his company. He's the kindest, sweetest, most loyal, gorgeous, most brilliant, hard-working, loving man I've ever had the pleasure to be around in my life.

But without independence, I might have settled for less. I might have felt pressured to find someone for all the wrong reasons. There are so many women that stay way too long in really bad relationships because they don't have the independence to leave.

I always find that tragic.


----------



## TiggyBlue

wowzer said:


> _Absolutely do not make someone a priority when that someone makes you an option._


I love this.


----------



## tennisstar

committed4ever said:


> I went back and read some of your threads. You've been through a LOT. My hat's off to you.


Thanks Committed. I really have to fight being bitter. I want so much to be happy with my life and the good things that have happened, but it is hard qt times. I hear men and women on TAM talk about staying at home, and I think how I would have loved to have had more time with my son when he was young. But I didn't have a choice. I hear TAM participants talk about equity in homes, child support and alimony, but I didn't receive any of that. Sometimes I feel that I've had to work so hard, and then to come on here and have some degrade that, it hurts. I feel like saying they should have spent time in my shoes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nikita2270

> I love this.


I remember when I finally realized that my marriage was not worth bothering with any further. I went to my now ex and told him I wanted a divorce. He asked me to explain why...

I told him that felt that my role as a wife was to try to figure out how to make my husband happy and fulfilled.

The problem was that as a husband he felt that his role was to try to figure out how to make himself happy and fulfilled.

I don't care for redundancy so I divorced him.


----------



## EleGirl

hambone said:


> This last wedding we went to, 2 weeks ago, they had 7 bridesmaids. The brides parents had a huge financial set back about a year ago, I think she was raised fairly affluent but they went bankrupt. So, the bride asked the grooms parents if they could "help"... They said they would "help".. (We are friends with the grooms parents). This bride went and spent money like a drunken sailor. She spent as if there were no limits.. Obviously, when they said they would "Help".. they didn't mean unlimited help. They ended up canceling the limo's and some other things. Half of the seats at the reception were empty. That was $25 per empty seat.
> 
> They honey mooned in Ireland. They had no reservations.. no nothing... Bottom line, they were in Chicago.. about to board a plane for Dublin in a few hours and they had NO money. I mean nothing. The groom had his mother's credit card. His mom ended up having to bump the limit on her credit card by 10K for them to afford the honey moon of their dreams.
> 
> There just doesn't seem to be a lot of fore thought on the brides parts these days about the cost.
> 
> And, they smeared the cake in each others faces... I just hate that. I would NEVER, EVER do that to my wife. I respect her way too much to do something like that.
> 
> 
> I wonder if she would have married him if his Mom and Dad had said we are paying for the rehearsal dinner but that's all.


Yes some people are stupid and way over spend. I rather doubt that most people spend like this on weddings. 

Today it's very common that a couple gets married after living together. They both have jobs and they pay for most of their own wedding. This usually leads to more frugal weddings.


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## EleGirl

over20 said:


> Good point, however, I do feel a wise wife will teach (in a loving way) her husband what she does need from him.
> 
> Being proactive rather than reactive


This assumes of course that the husband is listening and/or actually cares to meet her needs.

Some husbands just do not listen or care no matter how much they are told.


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## heartsbeating

We were heading to a house for sale. Walking up the street, we ended up talking to another couple also there for the viewing. It was a steep driveway of pebbles. The other wife was wearing peep-toe stilettos and struggling. Her and I had playful banter about shoes and I complimented her pedicure (could see 2 nails within the shoes). We arrived to the house and the realtor asked us to remove shoes before entering. She hesitated and looked at me, with an embarrassed expression..... then admitted she had only painted the first two toe-nails. I couldn't help laughing. I thought it was adorable.

Biggest mistake some of us make? .....Caring what others think. I'm guilty of this too.


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## Nikita2270

> Some husbands just do not listen or care no matter how much they are told.


I believe that my ex was a classic narcissist. I remember when I first mentioned divorce...he'd almost start chanting "I'm a great husband...I'm a great guy...I'm a great husband"...he'd say those words over and over and over again during the discussion almost like a mantra.

I remember once asking him who he was trying to convince because the reality is that with regard to his fitness as a husband, the only opinion that should matter is mine...not his.

To this day, despite all evidence to the contrary, he will still tell anyone who will listen that he was a wonderful husband and that he doesn't know why I divorced him.

I actually think this type of personality disorder is actually pretty common. I hear similar versions of it often. I think its often common when someone has an upbringing where they've been neglected or ignored and don't get enough validation growing up.

Looking at it with a more detached eye at a distance, I see now that my ex-husband probably has never actually really loved anyone in his life in a self-sacrificing way. Not even his own children. He's just a damaged individual.

When you're dealing with someone like this...they deflect anything they regard as criticism. They don't take it constructively and use it towards self-improvement. They actually take it as a threat and vehemently defend against it.


----------



## jld

heartsbeating said:


> Biggest mistake some of us make? .....Caring what others think. I'm guilty of this too.


I am _embarrassed_ to admit how guilty I am of this . . .


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## Nikita2270

> Biggest mistake some of us make? .....Caring what others think. I'm guilty of this too.


I'm interracial.

When I was a kid, I spent half my life wishing I was someone else...wishing I didn't look tan in the middle of the winter, wishing my lips were thinner, wishing my family looked more normal...wishing my hair didn't resemble a tumbleweed...lol

I never fit in.

At some point, I realized I never would and stopped trying. After that, life got a whole lot easier because I just didn't care what anyone thought.

These days, I realize growing up different was a blessing, not a curse. Life is all a matter of perspective. Celebrate the person you are...celebrate walking through the world knowing that the only person who has to like you...is you.


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## lifeistooshort

EleGirl said:


> This assumes of course that the husband is listening and/or actually cares to meet her needs.
> 
> Some husbands just do not listen or care no matter how much they are told.


Of course. If you're married to a d0uchebag there's nothing you can do. I know, my ex was one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Even with a partner with good intentions communicating your needs can get difficult. 
Somehow "I want you to touch me more often in intimate and loving ways" translates to grabbing my ass in the kitchen when I bend over for a pot.


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## hambone

jld said:


> Wow. It is amazing how much money people have to spend on weddings, or to allow to be spent. Sure makes me feel poor.
> 
> Why didn't your friends put some limits on how much they would pay, ham? And isn't the honeymoon usually the groom's expense?
> 
> Actually, where was the groom in all this? Is he a passive guy?


After our friends told the bride they'd "help"... 

She didn't bother to check back.. She didn't clear anything with our friends... she just went about having the wedding of her dreams.

Apparently, the couple spent everything they had between them on the wedding. I know, the mom was at our house visiting... when she got the call from her son in Chicago saying that they had no money for their honeymoon. She was blindsided. 


Now, how long they had know that didn't have any money for the honey moon.. I don't know. Both of them work.

Where was the groom in all this? He's a good looking kid. He's a very popular kid. He's the front man for a band and can get the crowed all riled up. He's not a planner. He's not a worrier. He's a carefree kid. The bride is very driven. She played D-1 Soccer and is going to Physicians Assistant school. She is strong willed and very confident.


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## hambone

Eagle3 said:


> Hambone, that is beyond nuts your post. Why was no one telling them to reign it in? And I know the grooms parents were trying to be nice but after getting taken advantage of on the wedding they upped their credit limit for a honeymoon they should not have been taking anyway. They are not helping the situatuion at all.
> 
> I think its crazy to ask people to pay for things. We got a some from my wifes parents and we paid for majority ourselves. I paid for the rehearsal dinner and we split the honeymoon together. I would have felt guilty seeing her parents spend a ton of money for an event for us. To each their own though.


It appears to me...it's all about the show... No regard for anything other than impressing your friends with a fancy wedding and an awesome honey moon. 

The reigning in part came when she had to come up with the deposits. Rather than discuss things with the groom's parents ... she went out and got what she wanted, damn the cost.

In the end, as big as the wedding was, it wasn't as big as she would have liked to have.


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## hambone

over20 said:


> Good point, however, I do feel a wise wife will teach (in a loving way) her husband what she does need from him.
> 
> Being proactive rather than reactive


The art of being a wife.. and my wife has it down... is to be so subtle in your manipulation of you husband, that he doesn't even know he's being manipulated.

And, my wife ALWAYS preserves my ego... She let's me think it was my idea and she's congratulating me on being so smart!

She really doesn't care who gets the credit as long as she gets what she wants. 

I know some people will disagree with me. I've seen wives wanted to win... and wanted their husband to admit in public that they won! Everything is a power struggle. That type scenario just doesn't bode well for long term success.

My wife have always kept our focus on doing what was best for our family... we've never kept score of who's idea won.

And, we kick things back and forth until we are in agreement about what to do.


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## hambone

EleGirl said:


> This assumes of course that the husband is listening and/or actually cares to meet her needs.
> 
> Some husbands just do not listen or care no matter how much they are told.


Those kind of men do exists. 

Your best approach is one that allows the guy to THINK it was his idea. 

And figure out a way that it's going to benefit him.

Like, "If I had a maid...I'd have so much more energy at the end of the day!"

Some guys, like my father, if it isn't his idea... it doesn't stand a chance.


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## Nikita2270

> Your best approach is one that allows the guy to THINK it was his idea.
> 
> And figure out a way that it's going to benefit him.
> 
> Like, "If I had a maid...I'd have so much more energy at the end of the day!"
> 
> Some guys, like my father, if it isn't his idea... it doesn't stand a chance.


Why should anyone have to trick someone into taking care of them or doing what's best for the family?

One of my least favorite traits in a person is someone who simply cannot be clear, honest and say what they mean. 

I really have a problem with women that, for instance, cry and pout or use sex as a weapon when they want something.

Good couples take care of each other's needs and don't need to be manipulated into doing so.

I think relationships would be a lot better, less stressful and respectful if people would actually learn to be straightforward and create an atmosphere where its safe to be honest with each other.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

hambone said:


> Those kind of men do exists.
> 
> Your best approach is one that allows the guy to THINK it was his idea.
> 
> And figure out a way that it's going to benefit him.
> 
> Like, "If I had a maid...I'd have so much more energy at the end of the day!"
> 
> Some guys, like my father, if it isn't his idea... it doesn't stand a chance.


Eh, or men (and women!) could just do things you ask them to without manipulation or needing to benefit directly from it and then congratulate you on your great idea. 

Saying "I would like to get a maid because I am too tired at the end of the day" should work just fine. 

I don't need to win but I do need to feel like I can just ask for things and not have to dance around his ego with tricks and hints in order for him to do it.


----------



## EleGirl

hambone said:


> Those kind of men do exists.
> 
> Your best approach is one that allows the guy to THINK it was his idea.
> 
> And figure out a way that it's going to benefit him.
> 
> Like, "If I had a maid...I'd have so much more energy at the end of the day!"
> 
> Some guys, like my father, if it isn't his idea... it doesn't stand a chance.


And for some men just could care less.


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## Nikita2270

> I don't need to win but I do need to feel like I can just ask for things and not have to dance around his ego with tricks and hints in order for him to do it.


Agreed. I always compliment my partner because I truly have a lot of praise to heap on him.

But I don't do it to get what I want.

Real men that have a strong self of self don't need constant stroking of their egos in order to give their partner something that she might want or need.

One of the biggest complaints I actually hear from my male co-workers about their wives is when their wife isn't clear and tries to get what they want by unreasonable means...ie, the silent treatment, kicking them out of the bedroom, refusing to make meals, etc.

When you're in a good relationship...you realize that when one person wins...the other loses. So an individual wins and the couple loses. If you care about being a couple...you find more honest ways to work out your priorities.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

hambone said:


> This last wedding we went to, 2 weeks ago, they had 7 bridesmaids. The brides parents had a huge financial set back about a year ago, I think she was raised fairly affluent but they went bankrupt. So, the bride asked the grooms parents if they could "help"... They said they would "help".. (We are friends with the grooms parents). This bride went and spent money like a drunken sailor. She spent as if there were no limits.. Obviously, when they said they would "Help".. they didn't mean unlimited help. They ended up canceling the limo's and some other things. Half of the seats at the reception were empty. That was $25 per empty seat.


 Ya know ....really.... I don't care who asks for money, or help.... there are LIMITS...if you extend your hand at all.....and that includes FAMILY.. 

I read that wonderful book "*Boundaries*" by Cloud And Townsend many moons ago (emotional boundaries, physical, FINANCIAL, spiritual even was talked about).....it was enlightening....a person has to learn to say "NO"....and allow the chips to fall where they may...taking no guilt... when others in infringing like that.. if they get mad and cut you off... so be it.... 

Even with our kids.. we will offer so much...after that, they get a clear message .."this IS on you"... You want it, you'll work for it...save well.. plan well....do what you have to do".



> They honey mooned in Ireland. They had no reservations.. no nothing... Bottom line, they were in Chicago.. about to board a plane for Dublin in a few hours and they had NO money. I mean nothing. *The groom had his mother's credit card. His mom ended up having to bump the limit on her credit card by 10K for them to afford the honey moon of their dreams.
> 
> There just doesn't seem to be a lot of fore thought on the brides parts these days about the cost. *


 We have never personally known anyone who had this much money to burn.. or giving free reign to their children like this...

H works with a guy though, his 1st wife's family threw a huge expensive wedding, they divorced about a year later.. they had some blow up about his not selling his Harley (I don't know)... then in another year we were invited to his 2nd "to the hilt's" Wedding -which seemed crazy he was doing it AGAIN.... his new Bride's parents likely paid for one too.... her Uncle is the Judge in our town.. and she is a Lawyer so we do lots of joking he better not screw this marriage up... So far so good, that was 10 + yrs ago.



> *And, they smeared the cake in each others faces... I just hate that. I would NEVER, EVER do that to my wife. I respect her way too much to do something like that*.


 I've heard you say this before ..this really bothers you..sounds you & wife are on the same page...that's all that matters.....My husband did a little in my face...I just see that as in the spirit of the moment ..I asked him about it earlier tonight, if he feels it is disrespectful... he says ...it can be all in FUN....his brother and a bunch of guys were clamoring..and I didn't mind at all.. he didn't get me good though, just enough for me to be a little surprised -beings he is not the type to do something like that...I think that made it even a little more FUN for me!! 

We completely blew off our Honeymoon.. We cleaned up after our reception & my H drove my Mother home an hour away...so that would be the next day....I put all the planning in the wedding & thought we'd wing the Honeymoon, going by some ad on TV I seen..... we drove 2 hrs away... had a beautiful day.....then we drove back that night , didn't want to spend that much for a Resort stay.. had nothing to do with money , just being "cheap" basically... 

THen yrs later when he got a better job...we decided to go back there (4 kids with us)...telling them we were taking them on our Long lost Honeymoon that we blew off... At least they got a vacation out of it!


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Even with a partner with good intentions communicating your needs can get difficult.
> Somehow "I want you to touch me more often in intimate and loving ways" translates to grabbing my ass in the kitchen when I bend over for a pot.


Hey, what's wrong with that? 

J/k!!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> Originally Posted by *SlowlyGoingCrazy *
> Even with a partner with good intentions communicating your needs can get difficult.
> Somehow "I want you to touch me more often in intimate and loving ways" translates to grabbing my ass in the kitchen when I bend over for a pot.





> jld said: Hey, what's wrong with that?


Yeah me too...

When I read things like this.. I tend to think ....that's a whole lotta FUN....hey...your husband wants YOU...he is a High Test guy... I am not even sure they can help this.. they see it as a compliment/ a thrill cause they WISH you'd do that to them!! Want to make his day.. turn that around.. go after his hot spot...and watch him light up !.. 

I am MORE the groper between me & mine these days.... oh he's done those things in the past, but never too much.. I can't say I ever felt disrespected in any way..he is very TAME... How to get a perfect balance between the Erotic who gets us grinning ...to the Gentlemen in loving affection and intimacy.. it's a fine balancing act for many men..(and we do want BOTH!)....I am betting many are geared more one way over another & need to work on something...... I'd like to turn the heat up on mine .

I have told him.. you know what.. "it is HIS DUTY as my Husband......when he sees me walk past to grab my ass.. this makes me HAPPY!" ...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> We were heading to a house for sale. Walking up the street, we ended up talking to another couple also there for the viewing. It was a steep driveway of pebbles. The other wife was wearing peep-toe stilettos and struggling. Her and I had playful banter about shoes and I complimented her pedicure (could see 2 nails within the shoes). We arrived to the house and the realtor asked us to remove shoes before entering. She hesitated and looked at me, with an embarrassed expression..... then admitted she had only painted the first two toe-nails. I couldn't help laughing. I thought it was adorable.
> 
> Biggest mistake some of us make? .....Caring what others think. I'm guilty of this too.


Would most be embarrassed over something THAT small though.. I know I wouldn't be.. would other women.. I don't know...I'd just give a little story as to why -since the talk was about our feet..and we'd both have a little laugh..it's all good... sometimes the things people hide seem so silly to me...where it could be an opportunity for connection and some more banter! 

With the caring how other people think.. I tend to feel there is a healthy balance ....if someone is on either extreme ... it will be a turn off to those in their lives... imagine a person who never cares what anyone thinks..about anything..they may even be in your face about it... here in lies the narcissists... No thank you....

Then on the other end of that... we have the hyper sensitive to where we feel we have to walk on egg shells...lest they be offended by an opinion or just take something too personally and we're always needed to make something right. 

I do care what people think... to a degree..it depends on who they are... if I respect them.. as I think we can all learn from each other... the learning stops when we no longer care at all. 

And in the little things (like this story).... it just gives us more laughs along the way...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I'm fine with the ass grabbing and I grab his too, it just wasn't what I was asking for. I want him to be more gentle and have soft, nice touching at times, not just grabs and pulls. I would love gentle things like brushing my hair out of the way or softly rubbing my arms.

He's a rough and tough kind of guy. He'll just grab me and pull me to him or grab me and pick me up or reach over and squeeze my inner thigh (to tickle but it just ends up hurting because he doesn't know his own strength) Not any soft and gentle. If there was a mixture of the 2 I would be ok with it but always rough, grabbing and pulling and squeezing, leaves me wanting more.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm fine with the ass grabbing and I grab his too, it just wasn't what I was asking for. I want him to be more gentle and have soft, nice touching at times, not just grabs and pulls. I would love gentle things like brushing my hair out of the way or softly rubbing my arms.
> 
> *He's a rough and tough kind of guy. He'll just grab me and pull me to him or grab me and pick me up or reach over and squeeze my inner thigh (to tickle but it just ends up hurting because he doesn't know his own strength) Not any soft and gentle. If there was a mixture of the 2 I would be ok with it but always rough, grabbing and pulling and squeezing, leaves me wanting more.*


My husband needs to learn a little from yours.. I want more of THAT!!.. it's my biggest gripe against my husband , he can't do ROUGH...(I even did a thread on it here )... and yours needs some lessons off my husband, he is so Affectionate / Romantic.. the man with the slow hand & the easy touch....and yeah... I'd not be very happy either / bi*ching in fact...if he didn't have that.. this I am sure of.. 

Men really do need that sweet balance!!


----------



## jld

I agree, SGC, there has to be a mix.

I like dominance in my guy, but I need gentleness, too. And at times he has been too heavy-handed, and that just makes me resentful. I have to talk it out at some point, or I just shut down emotionally.

But you know, I am not perfect, either. I am sure I disappoint him sometimes, maybe blowing stuff off when he wants more seriousness, or vice versa.

We are all so imperfect. Even when we try to communicate, we all still have our rough edges, I think. Didn't somebody on here say that marriage is all about a lifetime of smoothing down our rough edges?


----------



## hambone

Nikita2270 said:


> Why should anyone have to trick someone into taking care of them or doing what's best for the family?
> 
> One of my least favorite traits in a person is someone who simply cannot be clear, honest and say what they mean.
> 
> I really have a problem with women that, for instance, cry and pout or use sex as a weapon when they want something.
> 
> Good couples take care of each other's needs and don't need to be manipulated into doing so.
> 
> I think relationships would be a lot better, less stressful and respectful if people would actually learn to be straightforward and create an atmosphere where its safe to be honest with each other.


Did you read the post I was responding to?

I thought the question was, "What do you do with a guy who doesn't listen...etc." That is, a difficult guy..

I was talking about the guy who clear, simple, and honest doesn't work on. 

Guys don't like girls who fry, pout, and whine to get their way. I certainly wasn't talking about doing that. 

Again, I wasn't talking about the "good" guys who listen and take care of the wives needs. Those guys respond to the clear, simple and honest approach.

Let ask you this. Are you more interested in getting what you want? Or keeping score? 

What do you do if your guy doesn't respond to the clear, simple and honest approach?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Ya, I don't think I'd want only gentle either. A lot depends on my mood at the time too. To his credit I have gotten a few nice hugs and kisses lately.  
Focusing on what you don't have rather than appreciating what you do have is on my list of mistakes.


----------



## over20

lifeistooshort said:


> Of course. If you're married to a d0uchebag there's nothing you can do. I know, my ex was one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now I feel you are trying to put some men in a box with your ex....that is not fair


----------



## over20

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'm fine with the ass grabbing and I grab his too, it just wasn't what I was asking for. I want him to be more gentle and have soft, nice touching at times, not just grabs and pulls. I would love gentle things like brushing my hair out of the way or softly rubbing my arms.
> 
> He's a rough and tough kind of guy. He'll just grab me and pull me to him or grab me and pick me up or reach over and squeeze my inner thigh (to tickle but it just ends up hurting because he doesn't know his own strength) Not any soft and gentle. If there was a mixture of the 2 I would be ok with it but always rough, grabbing and pulling and squeezing, leaves me wanting more.


Do you like your husband's touches or no? :scratchhead:


----------



## hambone

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Eh, or men (and women!) could just do things you ask them to without manipulation or needing to benefit directly from it and then congratulate you on your great idea.
> 
> Saying "I would like to get a maid because I am too tired at the end of the day" should work just fine.
> 
> I don't need to win but I do need to feel like I can just ask for things and not have to dance around his ego with tricks and hints in order for him to do it.



So, does the simple, clear, straightforward, blunt approach always work to your satisfaction?

And, can I assume your husband uses that same approach with you and it always works?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

over20 said:


> Do you like your husband's touches or no? :scratchhead:


Yes, I just want more loving, tender touches. Why would you think I didn't? I'm asking him to touch me more! Sometimes this girl just needs a soft hug or a gentle rub. 



hambone said:


> So, does the simple, clear, straightforward, blunt approach always work to your satisfaction?
> 
> And, can I assume your husband uses that same approach with you and it always works?


Does telling him what I need or want always work? No, but neither would using hints and tricks. The straightforward, blunt approach is what I have been working on and striving for. I've gotten a lot better at telling him what I want and need and what is wrong and he is understanding more now than he ever did before. 

He always just says what he wants. I don't need manipulating into doing things. If I'm going to do something then I will when he asks. I would be less likely to do them if he tried silly mind games to get it. 

The goal isn't just getting what you want no matter how you get there. It should be having honest and open communication with your spouse to know and meet each other's needs. 

Either way, you're never going to always get what you want or have any approach always "work". They are people with their own minds and can do what they want


----------



## Horizon

I hate it when I see younger women having to go to such lengths to draw attention to themselves. Sure I love beautiful women and I love it when they have that understated sexiness but I fear for the younger generation who leave nothing to the imagination. You can see the pressure they are under.


----------



## lifeistooshort

over20 said:


> Now I feel you are trying to put some men in a box with your ex....that is not fair


So I can't tag my ex as a d0uche without putting men in a box with him? Really? So every guy here that tags his ex as a cheater is putting women in a box with her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hambone

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Yes, I just want more loving, tender touches. Why would you think I didn't? I'm asking him to touch me more! Sometimes this girl just needs a soft hug or a gentle rub.
> 
> 
> 
> Does telling him what I need or want always work? No, but neither would using hints and tricks. The straightforward, blunt approach is what I have been working on and striving for. I've gotten a lot better at telling him what I want and need and what is wrong and he is understanding more now than he ever did before.
> 
> He always just says what he wants. I don't need manipulating into doing things. If I'm going to do something then I will when he asks. I would be less likely to do them if he tried silly mind games to get it.
> 
> The goal isn't just getting what you want no matter how you get there. It should be having honest and open communication with your spouse to know and meet each other's needs.
> 
> Either way, you're never going to always get what you want or have any approach always "work". They are people with their own minds and can do what they want


You are totally mischaracterizing my wife. She doesn't trick, lie, etc to get what she wants. The honest straightforward approach might be to call someone a liar. My wife would never use such an inflammatory word...

So, when you clear, simple, honest, blunt approach doesn't work... what's you fall back position?

You're talking this all the wrong way. I am intelligent and very well educated. I have never felt like my wife manipulated me. I have never felt like, "Boy she did it again.. she really got one over on me!"

My wife is the epitome of "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar." 

You make it sound like you have a very cold, business like relationship..

My wife deals with people in a warm, friendly manner. Even if it is a conflict type situation. She charms people. Even if someone is angry at her... she never fights fire with fire. She can just stand her ground... smiling... until she can calm them down... and win them over. She should have been a lawyer.

I don't have the ability to do what she does.

She is not an evil person... going around and taking advantage of people through subterfuge, deceit, etc. 

If you met her, you would love her. Just ask any of her friends.

My wife does not deliver the same message to everyone. What my wife does is, she has the ability to understand how another person thinks, she understands their POV... whether they think in terms of the big picture or in terms of little details.. etc. Then, she tailors what she says to that particular person. She delivers her message in terms that the other person is most likely to respond favorably to.


----------



## over20

lifeistooshort said:


> So I can't tag my ex as a d0uche without putting men in a box with him? Really? So every guy here that tags his ex as a cheater is putting women in a box with her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I confess I did not see it from your angle. Please accept my apology.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## coffee4me

I thought about this thread when hearing this conversation between 2 -12 year old girls: 

A: just tell your mom you don't like her inviting that girl along. 

B: NO! I can't 

A: why can't you tell your mom, I don't get it. 

B: I don't speak up for myself- I learned it from my mom. 

A: so she's coming along and you will be mad all day - great. 

There were so many mistakes in that short conversation.


----------



## lifeistooshort

over20 said:


> I confess I did not see it from your angle. Please accept my apology.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No worries, we're good -
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

jld said:


> I am sure he means initiate a relationship.
> 
> We have been married 20 years and have five children. He knows how hard that is, and is always ready to help. He also knows that not all men are that way, and that much is left to their wives.
> 
> Dh will answer for himself later, but I can almost guarantee he will say that life is not as difficult for men as it is for women, at least in his view.


I look forward to his answers, since yours are highly confusing. Life is difficult for _everyone_ in many different ways, and I don't buy into the idea that it's harder for women. We all face difficulties as parents, as spouses, as employees, as friends...it depends on the circumstances we find ourselves in as to whose life is more difficult.


----------



## jld

Created2Write said:


> I look forward to his answers, since yours are highly confusing. Life is difficult for _everyone_ in many different ways, and I don't buy into the idea that it's harder for women. We all face difficulties as parents, as spouses, as employees, as friends...it depends on the circumstances we find ourselves in as to whose life is more difficult.


If you look back through the thread, you will see his posts.


----------



## Created2Write

Duguesclin said:


> I am JLD's husband.
> 
> I believe, in the long run, it is healthier for a man to initiate the relationship with a woman. That is, if it is to be a serious, long term, relationship.
> 
> If a woman is thinking of having children, it is much better to have a committed man than a man whose hand has been forced. If you wish to have children, it is better that the idea comes naturally to the man than forcing him.


...How is asking a man out "forcing" him to do anything? Why does it matter who initiates the relationship and how does that, at all, tie into a mans "commitment"? Is a man incapable of saying "no" to a woman who asks him out?

I initiated the relationship with my husband and I and we are very happy. Our fifth wedding anniversary is this summer. I initiated each and every stage of our pre-relationship friendship/flirting, and when we discussed actually being a couple, I was the one who asked him if he wanted to date.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Created2Write said:


> ...How is asking a man out "forcing" him to do anything? Why does it matter who initiates the relationship and how does that, at all, tie into a mans "commitment"? Is a man incapable of saying "no" to a woman who asks him out?


Yah, I see no connection between initiation and commitment.


----------



## Created2Write

Nikita2270 said:


> Why should anyone have to trick someone into taking care of them or doing what's best for the family?
> 
> One of my least favorite traits in a person is someone who simply cannot be clear, honest and say what they mean.
> 
> I really have a problem with women that, for instance, cry and pout or use sex as a weapon when they want something.
> 
> Good couples take care of each other's needs and don't need to be manipulated into doing so.
> 
> I think relationships would be a lot better, less stressful and respectful if people would actually learn to be straightforward and create an atmosphere where its safe to be honest with each other.


This post one hundred times! I don't manipulate my husband into meeting my needs. We're going back through _His Needs, Her Needs_ and _Love Busters_ right now, and it's opened a new line of direct, nondramatic communication between us. We each state what we need, and we sat together and discussed incentives and disincentives for when the other person doesn't meet those needs. Sex is off of the table. We don't use sex as a tool. Ever. 

This is also why I initiated our relationship to begin with. My prior three relationships, I sat and waited for the guy to make the first move. One ended up cheating. The other kept falling in love with every new girl he spoke to. And the third wanted to be drunk for our entire relationship. I didn't initiate or end any of the three relationships. When I realized I was attracted to DH, I decided I was done letting a man decide my happiness. I knew I liked DH, and was well on my way to falling in love with him, so I decided I would initiate the relationship. I knew what I wanted, I knew I was the kind of girl to go after what I wanted, and he would either accept me for who I was, or he wouldn't. But I was done waiting around for months on end just to know whether or not the guy was really into me, while I just fell harder.

DH loved my aggression. He was depressed over educational and relational disappointments at first, and didn't even notice I liked him until I started talking to him more directly and flirting. Seeing that there was a girl who wanted him enough to pursue him made a massive difference in his life. I don't regret that decision at all.


----------



## Created2Write

hambone said:


> Did you read the post I was responding to?
> 
> I thought the question was, "What do you do with a guy who doesn't listen...etc." That is, a difficult guy..
> 
> I was talking about the guy who clear, simple, and honest doesn't work on.
> 
> Guys don't like girls who fry, pout, and whine to get their way. I certainly wasn't talking about doing that.
> 
> Again, I wasn't talking about the "good" guys who listen and take care of the wives needs. Those guys respond to the clear, simple and honest approach.


It's not always this simple. For the first three years of my marriage I thought I was being clear and honest about my needs. Turns out, DH really had no idea what I meant when I expressed what I needed. He was utterly confused and found my needs ambiguous. Manipulation would not have worked with him. 



> Let ask you this. Are you more interested in getting what you want? Or keeping score?


....Neither. I'm more interested in getting what _we_ want. I don't want to be made happy through my husband's suffering. Nor do I want to make him happy at my own personal expense. I want us both to be happy and fulfilled through each other. 



> What do you do if your guy doesn't respond to the clear, simple and honest approach?


I used to think my husband was oblivious to his actions with regards to my needs. I don't anymore. Now I know that it's not a matter of responding or not responding, it's a matter of breaking bad habits and creating good ones, which takes a lot of effort and work on both sides. But, in the past when I felt he wasn't responding, I asked him if he understood what I've asked him for...I asked him if he thought my needs and expectations were realistic...I asked him if there was a reason he'd been neglecting my needs or not making them a priority. 

Trying to manipulate him in any way would have been counterproductive. He's a very intelligent guy. He manages his workers all day and knows when they're trying to manipulate him. If anything, manipulation would have lead to him shutting down altogether, not rising to the occasion.


----------



## Created2Write

I know you're not talking to me in these posts, but many of the points you make are fascinating.



hambone said:


> You are totally mischaracterizing my wife. She doesn't trick, lie, etc to get what she wants. The honest straightforward approach might be to call someone a liar. My wife would never use such an inflammatory word...
> 
> So, when you clear, simple, honest, blunt approach doesn't work... what's you fall back position?


It's blunt, yes, to call someone a liar. But one can be honest and straightforward without being blunt. I used to think my husband lied about wanting to meet my needs. I never called him a liar, but I did express that "it was difficult for me to believe that he loved me when he didn't make time to do the things that made me feel loved." Same point, no manipulation, no dishonesty.



> You're talking this all the wrong way. I am intelligent and very well educated. I have never felt like my wife manipulated me. I have never felt like, "Boy she did it again.. she really got one over on me!"
> 
> My wife is the epitome of "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar."
> 
> You make it sound like you have a very cold, business like relationship..
> 
> My wife deals with people in a warm, friendly manner. Even if it is a conflict type situation. She charms people. Even if someone is angry at her... she never fights fire with fire. She can just stand her ground... smiling... until she can calm them down... and win them over. She should have been a lawyer.
> 
> I don't have the ability to do what she does.
> 
> She is not an evil person... going around and taking advantage of people through subterfuge, deceit, etc.
> 
> If you met her, you would love her. Just ask any of her friends.
> 
> My wife does not deliver the same message to everyone. What my wife does is, she has the ability to understand how another person thinks, she understands their POV... whether they think in terms of the big picture or in terms of little details.. etc. Then, she tailors what she says to that particular person. She delivers her message in terms that the other person is most likely to respond favorably to.


This isn't manipulation. This is understanding people and knowing how to interact with them. Some are better at this than others. Some use it as a way to manipulate people, but in and of itself, it isn't manipulation.


----------



## Created2Write

jld said:


> If you look back through the thread, you will see his posts.


Yep. I saw it. And I absolutely disagree with him. How is a woman asking a man out "forcing" him to do anything? Under that logic, is a man forcing a woman to go out with him just by asking her out? It doesn't make sense. 

I used to think myself a very traditional woman...let the guy make the first move...let the guy lead...and that choice always made me unhappy and regret the relationships I got involved in. DH is an amazing, amazing guy. He's confident, attractive, intelligent, polite, more loving than I ever could have wanted in a husband, and he feels things deeply, even if he doesn't express them. I'm glad that the traditional way works for you and SA and others, but I will raise my daughter/s to know what they want and go after it. If I had left everything up to DH, I don't know if he would have asked me out, and not because he didn't like me, but because he was too focused on his disappointments to see the chance for happiness until I initiated things.


----------



## DoF

Little secret: What I wrote in my original thread about men's biggest mistakes.....applies to women as well.

Biggest mistake is thinking order:
Private parts > heart > brain

Women can get as blinded by looks as men.....and even more blinded by money!!!

:sleeping:


----------



## Duguesclin

Created2Write said:


> I look forward to his answers, since yours are highly confusing. Life is difficult for _everyone_ in many different ways, and I don't buy into the idea that it's harder for women. We all face difficulties as parents, as spouses, as employees, as friends...it depends on the circumstances we find ourselves in as to whose life is more difficult.


For a childless couple, I agree that, generally speaking, the life of a woman may not be harder than the one of a man.

Now, when children are coming, I think it is a very different story. First the man will never experience childbirth. I was present at the birth of each of our kids, and ... I am glad I am a man.
The scary part is that childbirth is only the beginning. As the kids grow up, statiscally, women are going to carry most of the burden.

Now, if I were working hard labor in a mine or something like that, I may argue that my life would be harder. But the reality is that I work in an office, like a lot of men. My life is much easier than my wife's.


----------



## john117

Your customers and suppliers must be nicer than ours... I'll take 8 hours at home with my kids over the office anytime.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Duguesclin said:


> For a childless couple, I agree that, generally speaking, the life of a woman may not be harder than the one of a man.
> 
> Now, when children are coming, I think it is a very different story. First the man will never experience childbirth. I was present at the birth of each of our kids, and ... I am glad I am a man.
> The scary part is that childbirth is only the beginning. As the kids grow up, statiscally, women are going to carry most of the burden.


WAAAAAAH! 

Sorry. This is a load of horse ****. Child birth is not awesome. But it is just a thing, like any other life thing. One has a choice to decide whether to be strong or to whine about how haaaaard life is. And gender is not even in it.


----------



## Created2Write

Duguesclin said:


> For a childless couple, I agree that, generally speaking, the life of a woman may not be harder than the one of a man.
> 
> Now, when children are coming, I think it is a very different story. First the man will never experience childbirth. I was present at the birth of each of our kids, and ... I am glad I am a man.
> The scary part is that childbirth is only the beginning. As the kids grow up, statiscally, women are going to carry most of the burden.
> 
> Now, if I were working hard labor in a mine or something like that, I may argue that my life would be harder. But the reality is that I work in an office, like a lot of men. My life is much easier than my wife's.


If women carry "most of the burden" when raising a child, they're not doing it right, or the father's aren't helping out enough, imo. Coming from me, someone without any children, I'm sure it sounds presumptuous. But marriage is a partnership, or at least it should be, so anything that needs done in the marriage should be handled and dealt with by both spouses. Parenting children shouldn't be any different. 

As for working in an office being less difficult than being a mother, I don't think that's fair to say. Workplaces and offices are all very different. In the construction industry, even office jobs are hectic, stressful, and filled with anxiety. I would say that the difficulties are different, but not less.


----------



## tennisstar

john117 said:


> Your customers and suppliers must be nicer than ours... I'll take 8 hours at home with my kids over the office anytime.


I am going to agree with John here. Office pilot is, stress, long commutes, worrying about layoffs, customer complaints, difficult coworkers etc are not easy to deal with. Sometimes I go home and can't even think straight after a stressful day. 

Also, Dug, you should have disclosed you were JLD's husband way before now. You two think a little different than others, and that would have been good to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

tennisstar said:


> I am going to agree with John here. Office pilot is, stress, long commutes, worrying about layoffs, customer complaints, difficult coworkers etc are not easy to deal with. Sometimes I go home and can't even think straight after a stressful day.
> 
> Also, Dug, you should have disclosed you were JLD's husband way before now.* You two think a little different than others*, and that would have been good to know.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just out of curiosity, how do you think we think differently?


----------



## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> If women carry "most of the burden" when raising a child, they're not doing it right, or the father's aren't helping out enough, imo. Coming from me, someone without any children, I'm sure it sounds presumptuous. But marriage is a partnership, or at least it should be, so anything that needs done in the marriage should be handled and dealt with by both spouses. Parenting children shouldn't be any different.
> .


:iagree:
It really depends on the couple how childcare/chores are shared (plus how much of a burden you allow someone to put onto you). I don't really have any more/less stress a raising our child then my husband does, it's really more about what someone want's out of a relationship and personal boundaries than gender imo.


----------



## tennisstar

Jld, for one, you and your husband aren't equals in a marriage. You defer to him on everything and think that he is "in charge," almost like father/daughter rather than married. Secondly, your thread that was closed down (about how men should accept their cheating wife's love child) showed a line of thought totally different than most people. 

Also, you have a tendency to cut people down with your threads, and then act like you would never do that, almost if you're too sweet to do so. And if anyone questions something or says something that you don't feel like answering, you just don't. 

I just think your opinion is very different in many respects and thus, not applicable in many circumstances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Duguesclin

john117 said:


> Your customers and suppliers must be nicer than ours... I'll take 8 hours at home with my kids over the office anytime.


John, I agree watching kids for 8h will be much better than 8h at work. Being with the kids 24/7, that is another story!


----------



## Duguesclin

I read on this board many women who feel that they need to be able to provide for themselves and their kids if their husband were to leave them. I hear, in those same pages, men complaining that their wives are not pulling their weight. Somehow they are taken advantage of by women who have only sight to their money. I doubt many men are working on backup plans on how to take care of their kids if their wife were to leave.

In my personal life, I see what my wife has done and there is no way I could have done the same. 5 kids, all vaginal births, no drug. Breastfed exclusively for at least the first 9 months and on demand for at least 2.5 years. Homeschooling, cooking from scratch.... And on top she agreed to live in Europe and India.

She absolutely has had a harder life than me, no question.

Are every women in this world having it harder than men, probably not but a big majority do.


----------



## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> I read on this board many women who feel that they need to be able to provide for themselves and their kids if their husband were to leave them. I hear, in those same pages, men complaining that their wives are not pulling their weight. Somehow they are taken advantage of by women who have only sight to their money. I doubt many men are working on backup plans on how to take care of their kids if their wife were to leave.
> 
> In my personal life, I see what my wife has done and there is no way I could have done the same. 5 kids, all vaginal births, no drug. Breastfed exclusively for at least the first 9 months and on demand for at least 2.5 years. Homeschooling, cooking from scratch.... And on top she agreed to live in Europe and India.
> 
> She absolutely has had a harder life than me, no question.
> 
> Are every women in this world having it harder than men, probably not but a big majority do.


Dug, you do realize that the majority of American women don't live this lifestyle, right? 

5 children is a lot, especially these days. And why no drugs with childbirth? That seems to be just asking for things to be more difficult. Homeschooling is probably very time consuming and challenging. Cooking from scratch - too time consuming unless one really loves cooking. 

I remember reading your wife's posts that this is the lifestyle you wanted. I can't help but wonder if she's happy with this. Hopefully so, because to some, myself included, this sounds miserable. 

I don't think the majority of American women lead this difficult of a lifestyle. Certainly not the ones I know. If thus lifestyle makes you and your wife happy, then great. But do realize this isn't a typical lifestyle in this day and time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.
> 
> My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups.
> 
> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


Stating "I'm not a feminist but..." which is essentially the same as not valuing themselves.


----------



## committed4ever

NobodySpecial said:


> WAAAAAAH!
> 
> Sorry. This is a load of horse ****. Child birth is not awesome. But it is just a thing, like any other life thing. One has a choice to decide whether to be strong or to whine about how haaaaard life is. And gender is not even in it.


I don't know how anyone -- man/woman, with children/childless could possibly think that childbirth is not awesome. Carrying a child in your belly until labor, feeling the child move, shift, wondering what the expressions on their tiny faces look like as you go through these change, the excitement/sheer terror when labor begins, pain so intense you wonder how you can possibly bear for hours more, (no meds for me), trying to remember how long the docs will let you labor before C-section delivery, reaching that 24 hour mark and going beyond, finally, the ring of fire (there are no words) and then this beautiful, alive, tiny ball of wonder comes out of your womb and is laid on your chest.

Because mankind is our most valuable asset in this world. Nothing else even comes close. So yeah, childbirth IS awesome! And personally, I'd rather a man have empathy for what it takes to bring a child into this world than to feel like "meh, no biggie."

JMO, YMMV


----------



## committed4ever

tennisstar said:


> I am going to agree with John here. Office pilot is, stress, long commutes, worrying about layoffs, customer complaints, difficult coworkers etc are not easy to deal with. Sometimes I go home and can't even think straight after a stressful day. *Depends on the job and on the other factors at home for the wife. But for me, I HATED the office environment and don't care if I never have to set foot in an office again. Some people are just not wired for 9 to 5 (or whatever the hours turn out to be) and I'm one of them, even though I received the highest award/bonus that had ever been given in my section before I resigned. It was not a professional position, though. *
> 
> Also, Dug, you should have disclosed you were JLD's husband way before now. You two think a little different than others, and that would have been good to know. *Actually he disclosed it some time ago on another thread. *
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





tennisstar said:


> Dug, you do realize that the majority of American women don't live this lifestyle, right?
> 
> 5 children is a lot, especially these days. *Yes it is! I tip my hat to them both, just as I tip my hat to the difficulty of your lifestyle past and present, Tennis.*
> 
> And why no drugs with childbirth?
> 
> *I chose no drugs, but this would take a whole thread in itself. Nothing could have prepared me for how excrutiating the pain was, but I would do it all over gain if it is meant to be (H's doc says it most likely won't be happening -- we should consider it a miracle we had the first one.) Plus I understand after the first one the labor is shorter and seems less intense, for the most part.*
> 
> That seems to be just asking for things to be more difficult. Homeschooling is probably very time consuming and challenging. Cooking from scratch - too time consuming unless one really loves cooking. *Lots and lots of people (not just women) are cooking from scratch these days. It is so much healthier. In my family, this is tradition. When we have one of our large family gatherings, sometimes someone will try to dress up a dish and pass it off as from scratch. They are immediately exposed for the fraud they are! LOL! Now you talk about shaming! If you can't cook in our family you will lead a hard life! (it's all in fun). *
> 
> I remember reading your wife's posts that this is the lifestyle you wanted. I can't help but wonder if she's happy with this. Hopefully so, because to some, myself included, this sounds miserable.
> 
> I don't think the majority of American women lead this difficult of a lifestyle. Certainly not the ones I know. If thus lifestyle makes you and your wife happy, then great. But do realize this isn't a typical lifestyle in this day and time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

tennisstar said:


> Cooking from scratch - too time consuming unless one really loves cooking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have eaten a vegan or ovo-lacto diet since 1996, so that was the reason for a lot of the cooking from scratch. It was not because I loved cooking! And, as in all things, I kept it simple, and still do. That is how I manage in life.

But we have relaxed a lot in recent years, and I wonder sometimes why I made life so hard on myself before. I think it was the desire, as a young mom, to be as pure as I could stand being.

We did not use pain meds because we had home births, and meds are not available. My 3rd child was born in the hospital, because he was so big and the midwife did not want to do him at home. But by that time I was used to no meds, and he came quickly (1 1/2 hours of labor), so I would not have needed them anyway.

Doing the research for homeschooling did indeed take time, but our oldest graduated last year, and I pretty much have my program in place for the younger ones. I am flexible, though, too, and am willing to modify things. And our oldest is doing so well, so I know, for us, that homeschooling is worth it.

To Dug and me, our lifestyle is normal. Our marriage is normal. I can't imagine not trusting my husband in every way, and not having him provide for our family. To both of us, that is entirely normal and natural. Obviously, that is not the case for everyone. As committed said, ymmv.

If we were all the same here on TAM, the boards would be boring. And we can all learn things from each other. We are all influencing each other. We don't have to agree. It is actually more interesting when we do not agree.


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## lifeistooshort

I had two vaginal births after two cases of preeclampsia, and you're darn tootin that I had drugs with both. I stayed home for 5 years and it sucked; I love my boys but it wasn't for me. Now I work in a pretty demanding field and I love it, I'd take the office over all day with kids anytime. It's not that I think it's easier, it's that for me staying home wasn't what I wanted and thus was soul sucking; my boys say I became a lot better to be around once I went back to work. Of course they're now 13 and 10 so they don't need quite as much. I should mention that I also cook because I like to eat healthy, and while I don't home school I'm always available for tutoring, which both boys take me up on. I have a lot more energy now that I'm working because I'm happier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

committed4ever said:


> I don't know how anyone -- man/woman, with children/childless could possibly think that childbirth is not awesome.


Oh yah! There were awesome bits. There were pain bits too which is what I was referring to.


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## jld

I hear you on the soul-sucking, life. Those years when I had all little kids were so hard. And Dug, as kind of a man as he is, really did not know how to help me with that soul-sucking feeling. 

And I don't know how much counseling would have helped, either. I think the years where kids are little are just hard, for some of us, at least.

I love having teenagers. I love the discussions, and seeing them take their own paths in life.

I think it is hard to be a mom. I understand not everyone feels this way, but I do.


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## committed4ever

lifeistooshort said:


> I had two vaginal births after two cases of preeclampsia, and you're darn tootin that I had drugs with both. I stayed home for 5 years and it sucked; I love my boys but it wasn't for me. Now I work in a pretty demanding field and I love it, I'd take the office over all day with kids anytime. It's not that I think it's easier, it's that for me staying home wasn't what I wanted and thus was soul sucking; my boys say I became a lot better to be around once I went back to work. Of course they're now 13 and 10 so they don't need quite as much. I should mention that I also cook because I like to eat healthy, and while I don't home school I'm always available for tutoring, which both boys take me up on. I have a lot more energy now that I'm working because I'm happier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My post and yours are perfect examples of how different we all are, and that's great! I just wish we as women could get to the point where we value our differences instead of acting superior because we are one way or the other (and I'm not talking about you, LITS). 

I meant to post this in response to an earlier post. I wasn't too happy with my new neighborhood at first because of a few bad apples, but since the weather has gotten warmer and I'm walking the neighborhood, I am loving the dynamic. There are pretty good amount of SAHMs but more working Moms. And some of the working Moms have been great stand-ins for emergency child care, and even some babysit neighborhood kids. One is home schooling through a network at her church, and one of the working Mom's kids participates. The babysitting and emergency child care in turn brings a few extra dollars into the households of SAHM's. I understand they use to be at each other's throats until a pretty bad winter a few years ago when the number of snow days began to take a toll and one of the working Mom's decided to swallow her pride and ask one of the SAHM's for help.


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## jld

I don't think anybody really cares, at heart, how someone else lives. Or maybe I just don't.

Even talking about the years with the little ones is kind of traumatizing, just reliving it. I am feeling all the stress again, and that feeling of wanting to cling to dh when he would come home for lunch, and again, waiting for him to come home after work. And then begging to go on some kind of outing, or to a restaurant, or just something to distract me from that life full of little kids.

But I look at the older ones now, and I am so glad for the investment. And that is what kept me going then, knowing that someday it would be worth it. 

Motherhood is long term work. But it really is worth it when they grow up and look around, and see how lucky they were. And then they thank you for it.

I think the working moms are lucky to have their own money. Life can offer money to her boys that I cannot offer to mine. She has financial independence that I do not have. I admire that, life. And I respect your intelligence. I could not have been a math major and become an actuary. And I respect that you are a runner, too.


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## committed4ever

jld said:


> I love having teenagers. I love the discussions, and seeing them take their own paths in life.


You sound like my Mom, JLD. And yet it seemed like we were ALWAYS getting into trouble in one form or another, but she says that was her favorite age of motherhood.


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## jld

committed4ever said:


> You sound like my Mom, JLD. And yet it seemed like we were ALWAYS getting into trouble in one form or another, but she says that was her favorite age of motherhood.


Lol, committed. How much trouble could you get into with those beautiful ballroom dance costumes and heels on? 

I think the secret to enjoying the teen years is being able to share the power. Some parents want to have the same control as in the younger years, but I don't think that works with teens.

And, of course, the homeschooling is probably the main difference between what I have experienced with teens and what other moms have written. I suspect that homeschooling makes the teen years a whole different ballgame.


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## john117

Dealing with teenagers is soul svcking to extents that only Dante could describe. Yea, they're interesting to talk to and teach things but all the same they're not much easier, if at all, to deal with than toddlers.

Maybe my girls are high maintenance (aka EAAP's or European - Asian - American Princesses) but for the most part I welcome the interaction even if it's exhausting at times. 

Dealing with four boys... Well.. I would be in the witness protection program within a month  if they're anything like most of my friends' kids. Or follow the "cheaper by the dozen" routine and run the house like a Soviet country, five year plans and all.


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## jld

I know this sounds like a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. 

There is a lot of talk in SIM about sexless marriage, and dh and I cannot relate at all. We have always had an active sex life, even during those mindnumbing little kid years. As a matter of fact, I would look forward to those private moments with dh, when I could just be a woman, and not a mom. And dh is not naturally very affectionate, so those times were a guarantee of affection and attention.

Do you think the fact that I felt so trapped at home with little kids might have been a reason we were not sexless? I mean, there has to be a reason we escaped what seems to plague so many people. I am just trying to figure it out.


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## jld

john117 said:


> Dealing with teenagers is soul svcking to extents that only Dante could describe. Yea, they're interesting to talk to and teach things but all the same they're not much easier, if at all, to deal with than toddlers.
> 
> Maybe my girls are high maintenance (aka EAAP's or European - Asian - American Princesses) but for the most part I welcome the interaction even if it's exhausting at times.
> 
> Dealing with four boys... Well.. I would be in the witness protection program within a month  if they're anything like most of my friends' kids. Or follow the "cheaper by the dozen" routine and run the house like a Soviet country, five year plans and all.


Lol, john. I really think the homeschooling makes a difference.

My boys are pretty well-behaved. They are not perfect, of course; they fight with each other, and do not obey me the second I tell them to do something. But they listen overall, and help out. And they take responsibility for their schoolwork.

I wanted a houseful of girls, but I only got one. I think you are lucky to have two daughters.


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## john117

Nope.

You did not turn frigid despite all the runes saying you should for one reason. You chose the path and probably saw thru it to a later, less frantic, more enjoyable future.

Most of the stressed out LD spouses we encounter here and in real life can't see past next week's Customer meeting or PTO coffee event. They can't visualize a world where Mom , Wife, and Lover are all parts of the same intersecting Venn diagram. 

They let short term factors influence long term behavior and ultimately happiness and contentment.


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## jld

Thanks for your response, john. The thing is, this life was not my idea. I agreed to it, and I have tried to carry it out the best I am able (or am willing to), but it was not my idea. It was dh's vision, and I accepted it.

Sometimes I feel like we have done everything wrong, wrong, wrong, in the eyes of American culture. But things seem to be turning out okay, anyway.


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## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I hear you on the soul-sucking, life. Those years when I had all little kids were so hard. And Dug, as kind of a man as he is, really did not know how to help me with that soul-sucking feeling.
> 
> And I don't know how much counseling would have helped, either. I think the years where kids are little are just hard, for some of us, at least.
> 
> I love having teenagers. I love the discussions, and seeing them take their own paths in life.
> 
> I think it is hard to be a mom. I understand not everyone feels this way, but I do.


I don't think anyone objects to whatever your experience is and has been. The objection is that you continually apply this experience as universal to your gender. Then back pedal as in this post. The fact of the matter is, the whole weakness and difficulty of the life of a woman is the excuse that has been used through hundreds of years to justify the subjugation of women. If YOU choose to abdicate your own ability to choose and be strong in your life, in favor of obedience to your husband, that is YOUR choice. It has exactly nothing to do withe the state of the female gender.


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## john117

jld said:


> Thanks for your response, john. The thing is, this life was not my idea. I agreed to it, and I have tried to carry it out the best I am able (or am willing to), but it was not my idea. It was dh's vision, and I accepted it.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes I feel like we have done everything wrong, wrong, wrong, in the eyes of American culture. But things seem to be turning okay, anyway.



I don't think it was a vision (Moses handing Dug an iPad with instructions...) as much as it was his heritage and culture influencing him. So far not one of his expectations, actions, and longer term strategy as described here has been much different than what I would expect . Don't underestimate genetic programming...

And yes, you've done everything wrong in the eyes of the American culture


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## jld

john117 said:


> I don't think it was a vision (Moses handing Dug an iPad with instructions...) as much as it was his heritage and culture influencing him. So far not one of his expectations, actions, and longer term strategy as described here has been much different than what I would expect . Don't underestimate genetic programming...
> 
> *And yes, you've done everything wrong in the eyes of the American culture *


Lol, john. I hear that. 

So you think it is the European in dh that is the reason he wanted things the way he wanted them?

You are from Eastern Europe, right? Does Dug's way of thinking seem like what you saw growing up there?


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## Duguesclin

tennisstar said:


> I don't think the majority of American women lead this difficult of a lifestyle. Certainly not the ones I know. If thus lifestyle makes you and your wife happy, then great. But do realize this isn't a typical lifestyle in this day and time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It might not be a typical lifestyle, but there are plenty of lifestyle that are very difficult. Being a single mother caring for young kids while working is not easy life style either. and I can find many more.

I truly believe that most women have it harder than men.


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## Cosmos

Allowing others to define who they are.


Valuing other people's opinions more than their own.


Failing to set healthy physical / emotional boundaries by placing other people's needs above their own (although this is necessary sometimes, of course).


Failing to explore and express their own needs.


Feeling guilty when they say No.


All of the above can lead to lack of self-esteem and poor relationships.


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## hambone

john117 said:


> Dealing with teenagers is soul svcking to extents that only Dante could describe. Yea, they're interesting to talk to and teach things but all the same they're not much easier, if at all, to deal with than toddlers.
> 
> Maybe my girls are high maintenance (aka EAAP's or European - Asian - American Princesses) but for the most part I welcome the interaction even if it's exhausting at times.
> 
> Dealing with four boys... Well.. I would be in the witness protection program within a month  if they're anything like most of my friends' kids. Or follow the "cheaper by the dozen" routine and run the house like a Soviet country, five year plans and all.


My kids have been nothing but pure joy. 

I hear people talk about how they can't wait to get their kids out of the house and I cannot relate.

If I could turn back the clock and do it all again... I would.


Our technique. We avoid power struggles. We don't have the, I'm the adult... by gawd you're going to do what I told you... Why? because I told you to! (not saying that you do that. That is the way my father raised me)

If our kids make a mistake... they fix it and we move on. 

If a child balks.. we lay out the reasons they should do it.. the downside to not doing it... and let them make their choice... and they live with the rewards of a good choice and the consequences of a bad choice.

When we allow kids to make bad choices... and bad things happen... we find that their hearing really improves.

And, allowing them to fail builds judgment. 

Neither one of our kids has gone through that sassy, defiant stage And they are DD 18, DS 21.


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## lifeistooshort

My boys aren't home schooled and they're great guys. I get a little attitude now and again but it's not a big deal. But I do only have two and maybe I just got lucky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I am not into power struggles, either, ham. And I totally agree with natural consequences.

I think one thing that helps us is that we cannot afford to finance our kids' entire lives. We provide the basics, but we cannot buy them a house of their own, or give them an expensive wedding, or buy them a new car. They know they will have to provide for themselves one day, and I think they are motivated to make wise choices that way. Or at least they realize that they are the ones who will be left holding the bag for unwise choices.


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## lifeistooshort

committed4ever said:


> My post and yours are perfect examples of how different we all are, and that's great! I just wish we as women could get to the point where we value our differences instead of acting superior because we are one way or the other (and I'm not talking about you, LITS).
> 
> I meant to post this in response to an earlier post. I wasn't too happy with my new neighborhood at first because of a few bad apples, but since the weather has gotten warmer and I'm walking the neighborhood, I am loving the dynamic. There are pretty good amount of SAHMs but more working Moms. And some of the working Moms have been great stand-ins for emergency child care, and even some babysit neighborhood kids. One is home schooling through a network at her church, and one of the working Mom's kids participates. The babysitting and emergency child care in turn brings a few extra dollars into the households of SAHM's. I understand they use to be at each other's throats until a pretty bad winter a few years ago when the number of snow days began to take a toll and one of the working Mom's decided to swallow her pride and ask one of the SAHM's for help.


For sure. I don't claim to speak for anyone else besides me, and I don't particularly care what others choose for their lives. I do think that everyone should own the decisions they make, which doesn't always happen. I also think it's unfortunate that so many women feel such a need to justify their choices as the one and only correct choice that they put down others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> It might not be a typical lifestyle, but there are plenty of lifestyle that are very difficult. Being a single mother caring for young kids while working is not easy life style either. and I can find many more.
> 
> I truly believe that most women have it harder than men.


I am going to disagree. You and your wife have made choices that make it harder on your wife than many women. I was a single working mother. It was difficult, but I made it through. 

Not all women (or men) have difficult lives. I do have a stressful job. I do provide most of our support, yes. But I really don't think I have it difficult otherwise, just because I'm a woman. My son us grown. I don't cook. I do clean, though. I do work long hors some days and some days are stressful. But that has nothing to do with being a woman. I play tennis at the country club and I just came back from a short vacation. I can do this because I don't have kids at home. 

My point is in your situation, your wife has had a hard time because of your lifestyle choices. Other women don't make those lifestyle choices; thus, their lives are easier.nit isn't about her gender. 

I realize your wife follows you, and you are the dominant partner. Remember not everyone lives their life that way; many women are strong and feel they are in an equal partnership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone

jld said:


> I am not into power struggles, either, ham. And I totally agree with natural consequences.
> 
> I think one thing that helps us is that we cannot afford to finance our kids' entire lives. We provide the basics, but we cannot buy them a house of their own, or give them an expensive wedding, or buy them a new car. They know they will have to provide for themselves one day, and I think they are motivated to make wise choices that way. Or at least they realize that they are the ones who will be left holding the bag for unwise choices.


Absolutely, power struggles place you and your child on opposite sides of the fence. We told our child, "I don't think that's a good idea and here's why... yada yada". They make a poor choice and they screw up... it makes them realize that you are on their side... You don't want them to get hurt. And, when things go wrong... we don't hammer the kids with, "SEE, I TOLD you this was going to happen!!!" 

We suggest the best way to get out of that jam. Fix the problem and move on...

We gave our kids as much responsibility as we thought they could handle as soon as we thought they could handle it.

The objective is to allow them to build judgment so that that step into adulthood, is a short step.

Doing it our way does take longer, a bigger investment at the time and energy at the time... but, it saves time in the long run... We never had defiant teens that we had trouble controlling...

We've never got that call from the police in the middle of the night... Never had a car wreck, never even had a speeding ticket. 

Everybody who knows our kids will tell you that they are respectful and just great kids.


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## Duguesclin

tennisstar said:


> I am going to disagree. You and your wife have made choices that make it harder on your wife than many women. I was a single working mother. It was difficult, but I made it through.
> 
> Not all women (or men) have difficult lives. I do have a stressful job. I do provide most of our support, yes. But I really don't think I have it difficult otherwise, just because I'm a woman. My son us grown. I don't cook. I do clean, though. I do work long hors some days and some days are stressful. But that has nothing to do with being a woman. I play tennis at the country club and I just came back from a short vacation. I can do this because I don't have kids at home.
> 
> My point is in your situation, your wife has had a hard time because of your lifestyle choices. Other women don't make those lifestyle choices; thus, their lives are easier.nit isn't about her gender.
> 
> I realize your wife follows you, and you are the dominant partner. Remember not everyone lives their life that way; many women are strong and feel they are in an equal partnership.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As a single mum was your life easier than your ex husband?


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## Faithful Wife

When an individual considers all of their privilege and also lack of it, then we can see some women who have a harder time than some men, and some men who have a harder time than some women.

In the broadest sense of privilege, it is true (sorry, guys) that men have more privilege than women...privilege of certain sorts, of course. 

But the type of privilege that favors men over women doesn't necessarily mean that one individual woman will have a harder or easier life than one individual man.

There are many men who are less privileged than I am, economically and in other ways such as disability, and those men likely have a harder life than I do. Example, my brother is a white male and therefore is likely to have the kind of privilege that is afforded to while males in the US...however he is also paralyzed, therefore he has none of those privileges. He has a much harder life than I do. 

Contrast him against a white female friend he has who is also paralyzed. She has a much easier life than he does because she got a huge settlement out of her accident, whereas my brother is poor. Her life is not easy, but is definitely easier than his.

Contrasting both of them against me, my life looks like paradise compared to theirs.

Another contrast...when my kids were little, I was blessed with having a huge tribe of loved ones who were involved in their lives and wanted to help me with them. My kids were privileged with all kinds of care, adventures, family bonding, gifts/toys, and above all, real love and guidance.

Yet I have a single father friend whose kids never get any of that...he is their sole provider and caretaker and he has no one in his life who takes interest in his kids or in giving him a break. Their mother was mentally ill and abandoned all of them. He is doing the best he can, but clearly this is a huge struggle. He at least has the money privilege to allow his kids some luxuries...but they will never get the love and support my kids did by having the privilege of a big, loving family.

The point is, we can't just say "women have it harder" because some women definitely have it easier. 

Here's a great privilege test. When you think through these questions, you will see the ways you may have it easier than others...and this is not all divided up by gender.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you


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## john117

My wife scored a 45/100 and Not Privileged. 

Cue in the violins while the Learjet is warming up


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## Faithful Wife

People can be unprivileged jerks, or privileged jerks.

We can also be loving unprivileged people, or loving privileged people.

Happy privileged, depressed privileged.

Your personal disposition may have nothing to do with privilege.

But that wasn't the point I was making by talking about privilege. The privilege with respect to how women may or may not have it easier than a man (economic, how much outside support she has, whether she is disabled or not, career or no career or trust fund baby) is what I was talking about. I think it is too general to say "women have a harder life than men". Especially when talking about parenting.

I know as many single dads as I know single moms. My parents were divorced, and so I saw both my mother and my father struggle as single parents from very close up as a child. Neither had it easier, both had it hard.


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## john117

jld said:


> Lol, john. I hear that.
> 
> 
> 
> So you think it is the European in dh that is the reason he wanted things the way he wanted them?
> 
> 
> 
> You are from Eastern Europe, right? Does Dug's way of thinking seem like what you saw growing up there?



Most definitely it's a European thing. From his part of Europe at least. For my part of Europe, five kids are about three too many, homeschooling is not a word, and cooking from scratch is the only way. Depending on who's asking we are eastern, western, has-been, etc Europeans  (not to mention I haven't looked at a current maps for a while, who the heck is Moldova? Is that a country or what? Slobovia? )


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## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> As a single mum was your life easier than your ex husband?


It was more difficult because I had my son with me and he didn't pay child support, etc. 

However, it wasn't because I am a woman. My current husband raised his son by himself. He had the same struggles I did because his ex-wife left them, didn't pay child support etc. So it isn't gender specific. 

I just feel you are using thus argument to say why women have to be protected, etc. I don't feel like I am any less than a man. I make the same money, I work the same type of job, I'm just as intelligent as a man. Women aren't delicate little creatures needing protection. It irks me for someone to insinuate that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## memyselfandi

My hubby told me when we first got together that sex wasn't love and love wasn't sex...

Yeah right!!

We've had the best sex since we've been married..


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## Faithful Wife

I can feel delicate in my husband's arms, because real love requires vulnerability. But I'm not delicate as a person and I do not have a harder life than he does. He opens my doors because that's our dynamic and is a boy-girl game we are always playing. In the romance realm, there is always flirting going on and little things we do that might follow stereo type gender roles. But it has nothing to do with either of our strengths or ability to provide for ourselves as adults. If we split tomorrow, we would both be equally devastated...but it would be the loss of love that would be difficult, not any economic issue.


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## Duguesclin

I do not see women as weak, but quite the opposite. They are very strong and have nothing to envy men. I am not competing with my wife and she is not competing with me. We are complementary.

However, I do see women vulnerable. And for that they need protection. Protection when they are in the child rearing years. For example, there is nothing wrong to have strong alimony laws. 

A woman who has dedicated her life to her children and is left by a jerk husband needs protection. A woman who takes off a few weeks from work to deliver her child needs to be protected to get her job back.

I am not talking about protection in school for example. Girls are not vulnerable there, as long as there is no physical threats. If given equal chances, women are just fine in the business world.


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## john117

Duguesclin said:


> However, I do see women vulnerable. And for that they need protection. Protection when they are in the child rearing years. For example, there is nothing wrong to have strong alimony laws.



I may have mentioned my wife's cousin here before. Married, one kid, mid level exec pulling very serious money, publications, the works. Wife in her 30's he in his late 40's kid maybe 10.

The lady goes LD on him gradually and adds a serious amount of weight. Sex turns to TAM textbook no-desire. The guy showered her with gifts trips etc. Nada. In his infinite wisdom he goes for a PA except is followed by wife's PI (detective) and is nailed. Divorce ensues end she takes him to the cleaners. Little custody, guy loses house, a lot of savings, and has to move two time zones away to work for a tenth the salary. Meanwhile his ex gets the house and remarried pretty quickly. Loses the weight via personal trainer too. 

The lawyer and detective were finances with serious siphoning of household money over the years to her separate account... 

Granted this is an extreme case but still...


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## coffee4me

Duguesclin said:


> I am not talking about protection in school for example. Girls are not vulnerable there, as long as there is no physical threats. .


Being that you home school you probably don't know that school is a very vulnerable place for young girls. Physical threats are the least of their problems, the mental and cyber bullying that goes on at the middle school age and through high school is awful. It will tear a vulnerable girl down and break her spirit. 

My daughter had a lot of years of training and activities that build her self confidence before age 11; she is not vulnerable and even stands up for others. It's a rough world you gotta be prepared.


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## Duguesclin

I meant university. I agree K-12 can be pretty intimidating but not only for girls.


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## JCD

drerio said:


> Assuming men are as complex as they are and over think most situations involving men.


How condescending.


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## Ikaika

Duguesclin said:


> I meant university. I agree K-12 can be pretty intimidating but not only for girls.



1 in 3 university females are raped every year, even at some if the most prestigious campuses. By law, all universities are required to maintain a database of crimes committed on campus and against students who are at least part time. This is a matter of record not just conjecture. It is sad.


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## Ikaika

JCD said:


> How condescending.



It was a joke. The emoticon should have give it away.


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## JCD

ebp123 said:


> :rofl: Because that is what life is all about.
> 
> Seriously, this thread includes BJs, breast implants, and a woman's self esteem? Good lord! How about a woman's biggest mistake is thinking any of those things are important at all! What a waste of a life. Go out in the world. Make a difference. Matter in some way! Any woman you will ever read about in the history books was not the least concerned about her husband's d--- or the size of her breasts.


I can assure you that Theodora, Empress Wu, Queen Victoria (She loved the big lug), Catherine the Great, Cleopatra and MOST of the women in history had a very pointed and direct interest their husband's or lover's penis! So did 3 of the 6 wives of Henry the VIII (Catherine was political, Anne of Cleeves DIDN'T pass the penis test, and Katherine Parr was his hospice nurse) The rest got into history for exactly the reason you dislike. 

Because, let's be frank, for most of history, female power was borrowed power and the prerequisite for the path to power postulated pleasing a penis.

You can say this was wrong. But it was real.

Edited to Add: There was a strong substratum of women in history who were also born to power. Elizabeth I of England. Queen Isabella. Elizabeth of Russia. They didn't need to fondle a penis to get power. But because they were BORN into their roles, one can't claim that they got to power by MERIT. That they may or may not have been particularly good in their roles was a function of their personal character. Because for every Elizabeth I, you had a Mary Queen of Scotts, who was an egregious failure (granted, she liked penises a little too much... )


----------



## JCD

drerio said:


> It was a joke. The emoticon should have give it away.


Okay. Gimme a sammich and put the game on and we'll call it even


----------



## Ikaika

JCD said:


> Okay. Gimme a sammich and put the game on and we'll call it even



I would if I decided to get a gender change


----------



## JCD

drerio said:


> I would if I decided to get a gender change


What? Men can't make sammichs? You are giving us a bad name, dude! Now you get to buy the beer too while we make farting sounds with our armpits.


----------



## Ikaika

JCD said:


> What? Men can't make sammichs? You are giving us a bad name, dude! Now you get to buy the beer too while we make farting sounds with our armpits.



I'll buy you beer, I don't drink any longer. Just tell me what type you like. I have to warn you, don't pass out, I'm a prankster. 

I can make sandwiches, but give that I have to watch my cholesterol, don't blame me if it's a bit dry


----------



## JCD

drerio said:


> 1 in 3 university females are raped every year, even at some if the most prestigious campuses. By law, all universities are required to maintain a database of crimes committed on campus and against students who are at least part time. This is a matter of record not just conjecture. It is sad.


Raped or sexually assaulted? This is an important distinction.


----------



## Ikaika

JCD said:


> Raped or sexually assaulted? This is an important distinction.



I believe it is listed as sexual assault. Regardless, both are a form of violence against women. So, while there may be a lawful distinction, it is still a threat that I personally believe is unacceptable. Attempted rape is closer to 25%, not far from the 1 in 3 number of sexual assault. 

http://www.nsvrc.org/saam/campus-resource-list


----------



## JCD

drerio said:


> I believe it is listed as sexual assault. Regardless, both are a form of violence against women. So, while there may be a lawful distinction, it is still a threat that I personally believe is unacceptable.
> 
> Campus Sexual Violence Resource List | National Sexual Violence Resource Center (NSVRC)


By calling it 'rape' you are making as large an error as calling a slap in the face 'murder'. While a crime (and let's be clear here) there is a huge distinction between an unwanted groping and forcing a woman down and shoving a penis into her. That is why we have *different words for it.*

So let's be very distinct. Men are vilified enough these days without people making careless (and deliberate) obfuscations of the truth which make things seem worse than they are.

I have zero sense of humor on this issue. There is no 'regardless'. It is a pretty important legal point.


----------



## Ikaika

JCD said:


> By calling it 'rape' you are making as large an error as calling a slap in the face 'murder'. While a crime (and let's be clear here) there is a huge distinction between an unwanted groping and forcing a woman down and shoving a penis into her. That is why we have *different words for it.*
> 
> 
> 
> So let's be very distinct. Men are vilified enough these days without people making careless (and deliberate) obfuscations of the truth which make things seem worse than they are.
> 
> 
> 
> I have zero sense of humor on this issue.



Findings from this report include:

It is estimated that the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions may be between 20% and 25% over the course of a college career.
Among college women, 9 in 10 victims of rape and sexual assault knew their offender.
Almost 12.8% of completed rapes, 35% of attempted rapes, and 22.9% of threatened rapes happened during a date.
2.8% experienced either a completed rape (1.7%) or an attempted rape (1.1%) during the six-month period in which the study was conducted. Of victims, 22.8% were victims of multiple rapes. If this data is calculated for a calendar year period, nearly 5% of college women are victimized during any given calendar year.
It is estimated that for every 1,000 women attending a college or university, there are 35 incidents of rape each academic year.
Off-campus sexual victimization is much more common among college women than on-campus victimization. Of victims of completed rape 33.7% were victimized on campus and 66.3% off campus.
Less than 5% of completed or attempted rapes against college women were reported to law enforcement. However, in 2/3rds of the incidents the victim did tell another person, usually a friend, not family or school officials.

Vilifies men? Interesting.


----------



## Catherine602

Not manning up when they should. Given that there is a 50% chance that the marriage could end in D or a 25% chance of infidelity, there are still woman who risk becoming too dependent and helpless. 

Taking on more than they can handle on their own and not planning for a future that might include living temporarily on alimony and child support. Having children with men who they know are unreliable or abusive or deceptive. 

Not understanding finances, taxes, business, and property law, especially when there is a business involved. 

And final but not lest - getting married to a man without understanding men and not teaching the man about women.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> I used to think myself a very traditional woman...let the guy make the first move...let the guy lead...and that choice always made me unhappy and regret the relationships I got involved in. DH is an amazing, amazing guy. He's confident, attractive, intelligent, polite, more loving than I ever could have wanted in a husband, and he feels things deeply, even if he doesn't express them.* I'm glad that the traditional way works for you and SA and others, but I will raise my daughter/s to know what they want and go after it. If I had left everything up to DH, I don't know if he would have asked me out, and not because he didn't like me, but because he was too focused on his disappointments to see the chance for happiness until I initiated things*.


Please don't think that I judge this in other women....It really doesn't matter how people get together, just that the feelings are mutual...(or grow to be mutual) after whomever went after whom ! 

I grew up feeling not wanted in my own home....Looking back...I think I had a complex about never pushing myself on anyone -lest it would hurt too much if they didn't want me around...even with GF's... I let them gravitate to me...I think I had a fear of abandonment in some ways...because my Mother left me.

I sat & listened under my Grandmother ....how my Grandfather pursued her, she wasn't even interested at 1st.. but he kept coming around....she loved her Pottery job & just didn't care about a man....but he eventually broke her down....I just loved their story...they went on to have a beautiful marriage & 2 sons....

In my mind.. I wanted the man to come after ME...I said a prayer for the right man to enter my life.. so I was OPEN to what came my way.... 

We all have our stew of circumstances surrounding how it all got started.... You saw an opportunity where this guy/ your H was down, he didn't have women on his mind, could use a friend, some laughter... and your Crush was taking you over, so you put yourself out there, you took that Risk...after the trouble with your other BF's, you figured why NOT ! As I recall your mom asked your Dad out too, right? And they have a wonderful marriage... 

Our 3rd son is bashful like his father....and he has been jaded...can I say I am thankful for assertive girls who let him know they want him.. I think it boosts his ego some.. and there are times he's needed it... so yeah.. nothing wrong with it...so long as the guy is game too !


----------



## JCD

drerio said:


> *1 in 3 university females are raped every year, even at some if the most prestigious campuses.* By law, all universities are required to maintain a database of crimes committed on campus and against students who are at least part time. This is a matter of record not just conjecture. It is sad.



I see something like this and I go WOW! Holy Frigging SMOKES! My daughters are NEVER going to college! Why would I send my girl to school when she has a 33% chance of being RAPED!

Jesus Mary and Joseph! Are all these other parents BLITHERING IDIOTS? Do they think RAPE is the price of an education? Makes home schooling look pretty awesome!

So I did some digging. Census 2009 statistics said that 1.5 million girls went to college. According to you, that's HALF A MILLION RAPES.



drerio said:


> I believe it is listed as sexual assault. Regardless, both are a form of violence against women. So, while there may be a lawful distinction, it is still a threat that I personally believe is unacceptable. Attempted rape is closer to 25%, not far from the 1 in 3 number of sexual assault.
> 
> Campus Sexual Violence Resource List | National Sexual Violence Resource Center (NSVRC)


Ah. Now we are walking back from half a million.

So now I'm curious. I check the UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) which has a list of all crimes. ALL RAPES in the nation reported (not cleared, not prosecuted) was 88,097. For the entire 300,000,000 people in the U.S.

Hmm. Your half a million is a bit inflated. And you go on and on about percentages. 25% this. 17% that.

So now I want some numbers. Because I have a 4x chance of dying of radon induced lung cancer if I live in a brick house. Too back it's only a .0006 chance normally. But four times sounds pretty scary.



drerio said:


> Findings from this report include:
> 
> It is estimated that the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions *may *be between 20% and 25% over the course of a college career. (What is this 'may' crap? This is supposed to be statistics)
> 
> Among college women, 9 in 10 victims of rape and sexual assault knew their offender.
> Almost 12.8% of completed rapes, 35% of attempted rapes, and 22.9% of threatened rapes happened during a date.
> 2.8% experienced either a completed rape (1.7%) or an attempted rape (1.1%) during the six-month period in which the study was conducted. Of victims, 22.8% were victims of multiple rapes If this data is calculated for a calendar year period, nearly 5% of college women are victimized during any given calendar year.
> *It is estimated that for every 1,000 women attending a college or university, there are 35 incidents of rape each academic year*. My math may be a little off, but that 3.5 percent. Not one in three. Are you even reading these stats?
> Off-campus sexual victimization is much more common among college women than on-campus victimization. Of victims of completed rape 33.7% were victimized on campus and 66.3% off campus.
> *Less than 5% of completed or attempted rapes against college women were reported to law enforcement. However, in 2/3rds of the incidents the victim did tell another person, usually a friend, not family or school officials.* Okay. Let's use that too.


So...since we are getting a lot of 'may's and 'estimates', I decided to look at NUMBERS, not insinuating percentages without reference to actual numbers.

So I found THIS: Campus Rape Reports Are Up, And Assaults Aren't The Only Reason : NPR

What is the lead? Rapes are up 49%! WOW again!

So that leads to the 'graph' Reports Of On-Campus Sexual Assault At Four-Year Colleges.

Good! Finally. Numbers!

And...wait...what? 3621? There are only 3621 rapes a year on campus? Just one campus, right? (Read read read). Nope. Department of Education All 4 year schools. It has to be per thousand, right? I mean...it HAS to if we are going to get to that *500,000* number.

Blink blink. Nope. That is TOTAL NUMBERS. Wait...let's look at that title again.

Reports Of On-Campus *Sexual Assault* At Four-Year Colleges.

Um...let's look at the fine print. 



> Data include forcible sexual assaults and nonforcible assaults where the victim did not or could not give consent


So...is it rape or sexual assault? Let's assume the worst and call it 'rape' There was that one thing of 'only 5% report.' Okay. So let's multiply it by 20.

74420. (for the math literate, that's about 5% IF we multiply by 20)

But but but...you said half a million. One in THREE women were raped. Oh...then you backed off to sexual assault.



> Vilifies men? Interesting


That last quote is a nice passive aggressive way to insinuate that I am taking umbrage over nothing. 

If I inflated the murder rate of blacks on white by *500%*, you'd probably have some pretty hard words for me...and I'd deserve them. It would be seen as pushing an agenda at worst or I'd be an idiot for sloppy analysis at best.

So...how do you explain your assertions?

Edited to add:

Now, if you want to hold to a zero tolerance policy toward sexual assault and treat it exactly as rape, I can see that. (don't agree, but I can see it)

Let's be consistent. No double standards. If we are treating men like this, then every woman who has slapped, punched, kicked, or stabbed with her pen a man should also be brought up on murder charges.

Sounds ludicrous? Yeah...it does, doesn't it?

Sorry for the thread jack ladies. This sort of thing just pi$$es me off.


----------



## Ikaika

JCD said:


> I see something like this and I go WOW! Holy Frigging SMOKES! My daughters are NEVER going to college! Why would I send my girl to school when she has a 33% chance of being RAPED!
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus Mary and Joseph! Are all these other parents BLITHERING IDIOTS? Do they think RAPE is the price of an education? Makes home schooling look pretty awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> So I did some digging. Census 2009 statistics said that 1.5 million girls went to college. According to you, that's HALF A MILLION RAPES.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. Now we are walking back from half a million.
> 
> 
> 
> So now I'm curious. I check the UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) which has a list of all crimes. ALL RAPES in the nation reported (not cleared, not prosecuted) was 88,097. For the entire 300,000,000 people in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Your half a million is a bit inflated. And you go on and on about percentages. 25% this. 17% that.
> 
> 
> 
> So now I want some numbers. Because I have a 4x chance of dying of radon induced lung cancer if I live in a brick house. Too back it's only a .0006 chance normally. But four times sounds pretty scary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...since we are getting a lot of 'may's and 'estimates', I decided to look at NUMBERS, not insinuating percentages without reference to actual numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> So I found THIS: Campus Rape Reports Are Up, And Assaults Aren't The Only Reason : NPR
> 
> 
> 
> What is the lead? Rapes are up 49%! WOW again!
> 
> 
> 
> So that leads to the 'graph' Reports Of On-Campus Sexual Assault At Four-Year Colleges.
> 
> 
> 
> Good! Finally. Numbers!
> 
> 
> 
> And...wait...what? 3621? There are only 3621 rapes a year on campus? Just one campus, right? (Read read read). Nope. Department of Education All 4 year schools. It has to be per thousand, right? I mean...it HAS to if we are going to get to that *500,000* number.
> 
> 
> 
> Blink blink. Nope. That is TOTAL NUMBERS. Wait...let's look at that title again.
> 
> 
> 
> Reports Of On-Campus *Sexual Assault* At Four-Year Colleges.
> 
> 
> 
> Um...let's look at the fine print.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...is it rape or sexual assault? Let's assume the worst and call it 'rape' There was that one thing of 'only 5% report.' Okay. So let's multiply it by 20.
> 
> 
> 
> 74420.
> 
> 
> 
> But but but...you said half a million. One in THREE women were raped. Oh...then you backed off to sexual assault.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That last quote is a nice passive aggressive way to insinuate that I am taking umbrage over nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> If I inflated the murder rate of blacks on white by *500%*, you'd probably have some pretty hard words for me...and I'd deserve them. It would be seen as pushing an agenda at worst or I'd be an idiot at best.
> 
> 
> 
> So...I will ask you to outline which of the two apply to you...



I corrected myself and yes you are correct it is not 1 in 3 raped, but sexually assaulted. I guess you can read into my correction all you want, but up to 25% attempt rapes are ok? And, groping a female that that is not asking to be groped is ok? Ok, so women being sexually assaulted is fine I got it


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> There are many men who are less privileged than I am, economically and in other ways such as disability, and those men likely have a harder life than I do. *Example, my brother is a white male and therefore is likely to have the kind of privilege that is afforded to while males in the US...however he is also paralyzed, therefore he has none of those privileges. He has a much harder life than I do. *
> 
> Contrast him against a white female friend he has who is also paralyzed. She has a much easier life than he does because she got a huge settlement out of her accident, whereas my brother is poor. Her life is not easy, but is definitely easier than his.
> 
> Contrasting both of them against me, my life looks like paradise compared to theirs.


 What happened to your brother FW? So sad.. these are my biggest fears in life...something like that happening to a loved one...



> *Another contrast...when my kids were little, I was blessed with having a huge tribe of loved ones who were involved in their lives and wanted to help me with them. My kids were privileged with all kinds of care, adventures, family bonding, gifts/toys, and above all, real love and guidance.*
> 
> Yet I have a single father friend whose kids never get any of that...he is their sole provider and caretaker and he has no one in his life who takes interest in his kids or in giving him a break. Their mother was mentally ill and abandoned all of them. He is doing the best he can, but clearly this is a huge struggle. He at least has the money privilege to allow his kids some luxuries...but they will never get the love and support my kids did by having the privilege of a big, loving family.


 What you just described here is WHY I wanted a large family.. I envied those who had that big encompassing love ... adventure , family bonding... we really didn't have this while raising our kids, we just had each other ..it's why we never took off on Romantic vacations & such.. but we never complained... because just having them/ building our own family... was our dream.... ...so they would have that togetherness someday when they raise their kids....lots of cousins, big family gatherings.. (that I will no doubt plan and pull off till I die)



> The point is, we can't just say "women have it harder" because some women definitely have it easier.
> 
> Here's a great privilege test. When you think through these questions, you will see the ways you may have it easier than others...and this is not all divided up by gender.
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you


 Didn't take the test but I surely agree.. there is no gender that gets the upper hand ....it's all on a person by person basis.... I always evaluate or weigh these things in every situation....You have too...for empathy's sake...

Though I think it's great when a Husband considers his wife so much that he honors what she does ...and does all he can to help her ...(which seems to be JLD's husbands mindset) ..and where the Wife looks at him...and thinks he is doing the harder Job.... and honors him... doing all she can...Now that is some awesome Teamwork...with thankfulness...

Too often, unfortunately...we see the opposite on this forum.. where each are at each other's throats feeling it's all the others fault (and sometimes it really is monumentally unfair).. but one can't see it...like they are blinded to their privilege and how easy they have it...


----------



## Ikaika

JCD, my initial percentages may not have been correct in terms of the terminology and I am willing to be corrected. I'm fine with it, however no matter how you view it, I not willing to minimize the issue. Even the NPR article suggest that the proactive approach is important. 

I have very little tolerance of any violence against women, no matter how slight. And, that I don't joke about either. 

I do thank you for presenting the corrected math.

But I'm assuming at this point this is a bit of a thread jack and I will end my little rant here.


----------



## JCD

drerio said:


> Ok, so women being sexually assaulted is fine I got it


I also kick puppies and rip the tags off of mattresses.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Duguesclin said:


> I do not see women as weak, but quite the opposite. They are very strong and have nothing to envy men. I am not competing with my wife and she is not competing with me. We are complementary.
> 
> However, I do see women vulnerable. And for that they need protection. Protection when they are in the child rearing years. For example, there is nothing wrong to have strong alimony laws.


I definitely agree that when a family, both parents, choose to leave a parent at home, out of the work place, the law should protect them from financial ruin. A home schooling Dad that I was friends with had his wife up and leave him. And yah, he got alimony, as it right, until he got a job.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Duguesclin said:


> I do not see women as weak, but quite the opposite. They are very strong and have nothing to envy men. I am not competing with my wife and she is not competing with me. We are complementary.
> 
> However, I do see women vulnerable. And for that they need protection. Protection when they are in the child rearing years. For example, there is nothing wrong to have strong alimony laws.
> 
> *A woman who has dedicated her life to her children and is left by a jerk husband needs protection. A woman who takes off a few weeks from work to deliver her child needs to be protected to get her job back.*
> 
> I am not talking about protection in school for example. Girls are not vulnerable there, as long as there is no physical threats. If given equal chances, women are just fine in the business world.


I agree with your post, especially the part about job protection for women during maternity leave. Basically that's how it works in our country. A woman cannot be fired because of pregnancy and women on maternity leave are given full pay. 

But I was wondering about your political philosophy.

You come across to me as a social democrat.

Am I correct?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It's pretty much impossible to get accurate rape and assault stats because so many don't report.
Whatever the % is and if it's rape or assault..... it's still a HUGE problem. 
Talking about the problem of rape and assault is not a insult to men.


----------



## Duguesclin

Caribbean Man said:


> But I was wondering about your political philosophy.
> 
> You come across to me as a social democrat.
> 
> Am I correct?


I would accept that label.


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Please don't think that I judge this in other women....It really doesn't matter how people get together, just that the feelings are mutual...(or grow to be mutual) after whomever went after whom !


I think this is true. Dug and I would not feel comfortable in a situation with the woman being the aggressor, but it clearly works for some people. I think Dug had some situations where women were aggressive with him, and he personally does not find that appealing. 

Doesn't mean it can't work for others, though. Different strokes for different folks.

For myself, I just would not be comfortable being the initiator. Maybe I am lazy. Maybe I just would not want to work that hard. I would want to know the man were not only interested, but was willing to do the work of pursuing. 

For myself, I would also want to know how he would take rejection, even if only in a slight way. Would he get emotional? Fall to pieces? Get angry? Or would he take it in stride? 

All these things say things to me about a man's character. Things that are important to me, I guess.


----------



## JCD

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> It's pretty much impossible to get accurate rape and assault stats because so many don't report.
> Whatever the % is and if it's rape or assault..... it's still a HUGE problem.
> Talking about the problem of rape and assault is not a insult to men.


I certainly don't mind talking about the REAL problem. I just have a problem when we talk about the REAL problem...times FIVE.

Or to put it another way: there is a vast difference 33% and 5%.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> For myself, I just would not be comfortable being the initiator. Maybe I am lazy. Maybe I just would not want to work that hard. I would want to know the man were not only interested, but was willing to do the work of pursuing.



That's at the macro level (relationship overall) Do you feel the same way at the micro level, i.e. day to day interludes and interactions between the two of you in an established relationship?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Duguesclin said:


> I would accept that label.


I don't really consider it a label, but more like a way of seeing things.
Albeit, a more humane way of seeing things.

I consider myself the same.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> That's at the macro level (relationship overall) Do you feel the same way at the micro level, i.e. day to day interludes and interactions between the two of you in an established relationship?


I guess I was talking about the pre-dating phase. I just would not want to be the initiator then.

But as a woman that, this Wed., will have been married 20 years, I can tell you I do and say whatever I think in this relationship. I was just suggesting vacation ideas to dh this morning!


----------



## tennisstar

Duguesclin said:


> I do not see women as weak, but quite the opposite. They are very strong and have nothing to envy men. I am not competing with my wife and she is not competing with me. We are complementary.
> 
> However, I do see women vulnerable. And for that they need protection. Protection when they are in the child rearing years. For example, there is nothing wrong to have strong alimony laws.
> 
> A woman who has dedicated her life to her children and is left by a jerk husband needs protection. A woman who takes off a few weeks from work to deliver her child needs to be protected to get her job back.
> 
> I am not talking about protection in school for example. Girls are not vulnerable there, as long as there is no physical threats. If given equal chances, women are just fine in the business world.


You mentioned strong alimony laws, but many states are moving in an opposite direction. I live in Texas, and alimony is rare and if given, only for a few years. 

Sounds like we were raised and think differently. My parents taught me everyone has to work and encouraged me to get an education. I never considered not working. But I also never considered a large family either. Having more than 2 children would have been frowned upon. 

For me, I made the right decisions. Now do I want to go to work tomorrow? No way. But am I glad that I can afford a decent lifestyle. Yep! And heck, I don't have kids at home anymore. What would I do all day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tennisstar

Also I have seen guys be punished terribly by alimony. Often it is the wife who leaves, sometimes might have am affair, etc and the poor husband is left paying almost half his check to the ex-wife. I have even heard where she keeps the house, that he has to pay for, and moves a new boyfriend in. 

To me, it is hard to make alimony fair. If the guy was a jerk, maybe it is fair. But what if he didn't want the divorce? What if the wife was cheating? What if she was just a bad wife? The poor guy has to pay her for years on end? Not right!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> I think this is true. Dug and I would not feel comfortable in a situation with the woman being the aggressor, but it clearly works for some people. * I think Dug had some situations where women were aggressive with him, and he personally does not find that appealing. *
> 
> Doesn't mean it can't work for others, though. Different strokes for different folks.


 Actually what is twisted about me and my husband is this.. He LIKES aggressive women...that's his fantasy in the bedroom....he wants me to take what I want from him, even in dating he would happily have welcomed that , it's just that none he felt that way about came after him...

And I LOVE stepping into those initiating shoes even...it comes very natural to me....but only once I am in a committed relationship....(I need to feel the security to come alive like that & let loose.... that's just how I am wired)...and I really wouldn't want to change this, as that could have gotten me in lots of trouble in the past....especially if I was too high drive.

Beings My H is tipped kinda Beta on those scales, I think it even means MORE to me that he put himself out there, I really needed THAT MUCH from him.. ...Even though our marriages have some similarities jld...and in these traditional beginnings.. that a man should be the pursuer... our guys are still very different temperament wise.. but we already knew that!  



> *For myself, I just would not be comfortable being the initiator.* Maybe I am lazy. Maybe I just would not want to work that hard. I would want to know the man were not only interested, but was willing to do the work of pursuing.


 I wouldn't feel comfortable at the beginning ....as I would be questioning too much.. waffling ...wondering if he felt similar or was I just wasting my time.. if he was a NICE man, he may not want to hurt my feelings and just keep me around.. I could see me 2nd guessing and putting some pessimistic spin on it ...if I was the initiator of a relationship.. 

I would say I lacked confidence in my youth also (I doubt Created2Write did!)... yet I was stubborn as nails, knew what I wanted....but I was bashful too...

I needed the assurance a guy is INTO ME -before I can come alive & show my unabashed self ...(especially if I liked him -otherwise I probably would have melted on the floor )...If that is a hang up.. well I suffered from it! 



> *For myself, I would also want to know how he would take rejection, even if only in a slight way. Would he get emotional? Fall to pieces? Get angry? Or would he take it in stride? *


 This is an interesting question.. did you ever ask your H how he would have reacted had you rejected HIM???

I asked mine... he told me he would have walked away.. he would have been very hurt and felt like ..."Well the woman has spoken...she doesn't want me  ".. ..he added, at that point, I'd have to come after him... he is not into trying to convince someone they should want him ....at 1st I thought that was a little sad, like "WOW..you wouldn't keep trying ?!"... He just said he is not that kinda guy, doesn't get off on "the chase" like other men, ....he needs a Mutual feeling relationship ...or it all goes to hell for him.

When our 3rd son's off & on again GF dumped him ..(and she initiated him).....I got to see how he reacts....he wouldn't even LOOK at her....he was very very hurt....I think to this day.. he still hasn't looked at her.. it's like a running joke in our house.. I am always asking ..."Have you looked at her YET!!?"...(hecK I liked the girl, we hit it off when she came over)....it's funny cause they are both in marching Band and her butt is right in front of his in the march....he a Drummer and she in her tight short little skirt -twirling her baton. I guess her last relationship didn't work out...and what did she do ..... friend requested our son again on FB.... Would you do that if the guy can't even LOOK at you for almost 9 months straight.. She is bold.. or he is STUPID.. he accepted.. ..(she made a move!)....

I guess now he might allow himself to look at her again... I think I will kick him if he takes her back though!


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is an interesting question.. did you ever ask your H how he would have reacted had you rejected HIM???


Well, the night he told me he loved me (out of the blue; I thought we were just friends), I responded that he did not, that he just wanted to have sex with me! I just could not believe someone could feel that way only having known me six weeks.

He was stunned, and did not really know what to say. He took me home then. I don't think we said much on the way home.

The next day we were supposed to go to a dinner party. I told a fellow teacher at school that morning what dh had said to me the night before, and she basically told me to rethink my rejection of him. She had met him, and thought he was sincere. 

I was afraid, I guess. I had just come out of a breakup a month before, and dh was French, which I thought was suspicious.  I sure did not know _him._ 

I thought about what she said the rest of the day. And later that afternoon the thought came to me that he would be a good husband, a good father, and a good provider. 

Well, he called around 4 and asked me if I still wanted to go to the dinner party. He did not want me to feel pressured at all. 

As always, he was such a gentleman. (I hope you can hear dh's voice sometime, SA. Women love it. He has that calm, deep, gentlemanly tone. And, of course, the French accent. )

I said that yes, I would go with him. And with that, I decided to give the whole thing a chance. 

Two days later, I told him every bad thing I could think of about myself and my family. A few days after that, he told me he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our kids. I remember thinking, "I guess this means we are getting married."

And almost exactly a year later, we did.


----------



## heartsbeating

Loved reading your post jld!


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I would say I lacked confidence in my youth also (I doubt Created2Write did!)... yet I was stubborn as nails, knew what I wanted....but I was bashful too...


I made the approach and initiated dates in my youth. This was to feel an exhilaration with being bold and to experiment with flirting ...but then I quickly lost interest. I don't actually think my approach was because I was confident. Looking back, I'm inclined to think that for me, and at that age, it was a form of overcompensation - that stemmed from insecurity. 

My husband initiated his interest with me. He held my attention. I had a bit of an attitude about me which back then, I think was part of the appeal to him too. He was the first in the relationship to tell me he loved me; it was about a month after we'd started dating. I didn't know how to respond. Didn't realize I had walls up but they were there. In hindsight, I was fearful but knew that I loved being around him, all the time. He was way ahead of me. For a short time I managed to confess that I was 'falling for him'... until that day arrived when I could reciprocate that I loved him too. Although I think he was more taken aback when we reached that point in the relationship when I suggested we share our record collection. He knew that was a HUGE moment for me. Like I said, he was way ahead of me.


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Well, the night he told me he loved me (out of the blue; I thought we were just friends), I responded that he did not, that he just wanted to have sex with me! I just could not believe someone could feel that way only having known me six weeks.
> 
> He was stunned, and did not really know what to say. He took me home then. I don't think we said much on the way home.
> 
> The next day we were supposed to go to a dinner party. I told a fellow teacher at school that morning what dh had said to me the night before, and she basically told me to rethink my rejection of him. She had met him, and thought he was sincere.
> 
> I was afraid, I guess. I had just come out of a breakup a month before, and dh was French, which I thought was suspicious.  I sure did not know _him._
> 
> I thought about what she said the rest of the day. And later that afternoon the thought came to me that he would be a good husband, a good father, and a good provider.
> 
> Well, he called around 4 and asked me if I still wanted to go to the dinner party. He did not want me to feel pressured at all.
> 
> As always, he was such a gentleman. (I hope you can hear dh's voice sometime, SA. Women love it. He has that calm, deep, gentlemanly tone. And, of course, the French accent. )
> 
> I said that yes, I would go with him. And with that, I decided to give the whole thing a chance.
> 
> Two days later, I told him every bad thing I could think of about myself and my family. A few days after that, he told me he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our kids. I remember thinking, "I guess this means we are getting married."
> 
> And almost exactly a year later, we did.


I have somewhat of a similiar story. I was swept off my feet.. if it wasn't love a first sight, it was love at 2nd sight. And, I was absolutely NOT looking for a wife. I had gotten out of a bad marriage a few years earlier and was not looking to get married. Long story short.

I've talked about this with my wife. I asked her what she was thinking when I was chasing her.

Her answer? "I was wondering what you saw in little ole me!"

And to be honest... I was kind of wondering what she saw in me..

I can tell you what I saw in her... She made me feel absolutely wonderful. No one had ever made me feel like she made me feel.


----------



## committed4ever

jld said:


> And, of course, the French accent.


For me, a French accent would cover a multitude of sins ...


----------



## jld

committed4ever said:


> For me, a French accent would cover a multitude of sins ...


 It definitely drew me in . . .


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> It definitely drew me in . . .


Yeah, you can tell someone to f&ck off in French and it still sounds beautiful 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, you can tell someone to f&ck off in French and it still sounds beautiful
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

tennisstar said:


> I am going to disagree. You and your wife have made choices that make it harder on your wife than many women. I was a single working mother. It was difficult, but I made it through.
> 
> Not all women (or men) have difficult lives. I do have a stressful job. I do provide most of our support, yes. But I really don't think I have it difficult otherwise, just because I'm a woman. My son us grown. I don't cook. I do clean, though. I do work long hors some days and some days are stressful. But that has nothing to do with being a woman. I play tennis at the country club and I just came back from a short vacation. I can do this because I don't have kids at home.
> 
> My point is in your situation, your wife has had a hard time because of your lifestyle choices. Other women don't make those lifestyle choices; thus, their lives are easier.nit isn't about her gender.
> 
> I realize your wife follows you, and you are the dominant partner. Remember not everyone lives their life that way; many women are strong and feel they are in an equal partnership.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


SO true. 

My husband and I face very different difficulties because of our different jobs. I don't think that my being a woman suddenly means I have a more difficult life.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> I can feel delicate in my husband's arms, because real love requires vulnerability. But I'm not delicate as a person and I do not have a harder life than he does. He opens my doors because that's our dynamic and is a boy-girl game we are always playing. In the romance realm, there is always flirting going on and little things we do that might follow stereo type gender roles. But it has nothing to do with either of our strengths or ability to provide for ourselves as adults. If we split tomorrow, we would both be equally devastated...but it would be the loss of love that would be difficult, not any economic issue.


Love this!


----------



## Created2Write

Duguesclin said:


> I do not see women as weak, but...


Still not going to explain to me how a woman asking a man out is "forcing" him to be with her?


----------



## Thebes

lifeistooshort said:


> And assuming their husbands actually know what their needs are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes we can tell you guys and you don't listen. Not saying this is you but I have this problem with my husband. He wants what he wants but never seems interested in what I want and I have told him but it seems he doesn't think its necessary and I should be just happy with him being here. So now I just being here if that's they way he wants it.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Thebes said:


> Sometimes we can tell you guys and you don't listen. Not saying this is you but I have this problem with my husband. He wants what he wants but never seems interested in what I want and I have told him but it seems he doesn't think its necessary and I should be just happy with him being here. So now I just being here if that's they way he wants it.



I feel compelled to point out that I am in fact a she with a husband. But fwiw my ex was like that; notice how I said ex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hambone

The biggest mistake I see younger single women making is trying to morph themselves into what ever they think a guy wants them to be.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I think some women, worry too much what other people and society expect of them. They worry too much about superficial things like looks, and they worry too much about what men think of them. 

It's not really fair though because they are indoctrinated to do so. We have a world filled with media telling women they aren't good enough, media telling men their wives aren't good enough unless they do XYZ and look a certain way, whilst standing on their head, looking gorgeous and giving a blow job. 

I think the media has a lot to answer for, and we need to teach our children to be critical of the media and look at everything with a critical thoughtful eye. Unfortunately, not many are taught to do this.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*LittleDeer* said:


> I think some women, worry too much what other people and society expect of them. They worry too much about superficial things like looks, and they worry too much about what men think of them.
> 
> *It's not really fair though because they are indoctrinated to do so. We have a world filled with media telling women they aren't good enough, media telling men their wives aren't good enough unless they do XYZ and look a certain way, whilst standing on their head, looking gorgeous and giving a blow job. *
> 
> I think the media has a lot to answer for, and we need to teach our children to be critical of the media and look at everything with a critical thoughtful eye. Unfortunately, not many are taught to do this.


I agree with most of what you say here.

Don't know how much blame ,if any the media has to accept, but i think the crux of the problem lies in the constructs women allow to dictate how they see themselves. 
From one extreme to the next.

Capitalism too , has a part to play in this.


----------



## jld

Caribbean Man said:


> Don't know how much blame ,if any the media has to accept, but i think the crux of the problem lies in the constructs women allow to dictate how they see themselves.
> From one extreme to the next.
> 
> Capitalism too , has a part to play in this.


Well, the media is certainly part of capitalism.

Ultimately, though, we have to decide to believe in ourselves as women. I agree that we have to decide how much we are going to allow the media to dictate to us. We have to decide how much power we are going to give to other people, period.

Believing in ourselves is such an individual act. Standing alone takes such courage. But it may be the only road to true inner peace.


----------



## hambone

jld said:


> Well, the media is certainly part of capitalism.
> 
> Ultimately, though, we have to decide to believe in ourselves as women. I agree that we have to decide how much we are going to allow the media to dictate to us. We have to decide how much power we are going to give to other people, period.
> 
> Believing in ourselves is such an individual act. Standing alone takes such courage. But it may be the only road to true inner peace.


The Media will tell you that they merely reflect society. 

That's true... but they don't reflect the mainstream society. They reflect a small sliver that is way out on the edge, pushing the envelope.

And it seems like some parents, want their kids to at the front of every fad and it trickles down from there.


----------



## NobodySpecial

hambone said:


> The Media will tell you that they merely reflect society.
> 
> That's true... but they don't reflect the mainstream society. They reflect a small sliver that is way out on the edge, pushing the envelope.


Recalling the POINT of the media, to make money, they sell what the most people are going to buy.


----------



## hambone

NobodySpecial said:


> Recalling the POINT of the media, to make money, they sell what the most people are going to buy.



Advertising is for the purpose of increasing demand. They are trying to convince you that you need it.


----------



## Anonymous07

hambone said:


> Advertising is for the purpose of increasing demand. They are trying to convince you that you need it.


:iagree:

Look at make-up commercials. In order to be "beautiful" you have to use this make-up to make your eye lashes long, your complexion perfect, and so on. Ugh. 

I saw this online before and love it:
http://drkellyflanagan.com/2014/01/15/words-from-a-father-to-his-daughter-from-the-makeup-aisle/


----------



## treyvion

In the light of TAM I was going to say:

1. Thinking they should "control" their man.
2. Using sex as a weapon or bargaining tool
3. Putting friends and family members into their relationship

As far as the world goes, many of them are highly networked, but succomb heavily to peer pressure and influence.


----------



## NobodySpecial

hambone said:


> Advertising is for the purpose of increasing demand. They are trying to convince you that you need it.


Programming is determined by watchership because watchership drives advertising.


----------



## tulsy

As far as relationships go....

the biggest mistake I see BOTH men and women make is taking their spouse for granted, and waiting until it's too late before they put any real effort into the relationship. It's the age of procrastination, laziness, and resentment.

It's sad, really. 

"Like boots or hearts, Oh when they start... They really fall apart." 

Often, it's too late to salvage.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree with most of what you say here.
> 
> Don't know how much blame ,if any the media has to accept, but i think the crux of the problem lies in the constructs women allow to dictate how they see themselves.
> From one extreme to the next.
> 
> Capitalism too , has a part to play in this.


I agree with jld, the media and capitalism are tied together for the most part. 

I think the media needs to be held responsible, along with society as a collective, in how they treat women, (and men). 

There are so many studies done about self esteem and the studies show the less women view TV and read magazines etc, the higher their self esteem. 

In fact I was reading an interesting study about the influence of television on girls in (I believe) Fiji, they studied girls there before television became available in the 80's and they had much higher self esteem, had hardly any body issues (by comparison) and so forth, and when (american programs mostly) TV were introduced these issues skyrocketed. 

Further the amount of eating disorders and self harming has skyrocketed in the last 20-30 years, with an unprecedented amount of girls some as young as 8 having anorexia. 

I don't believe media should be able to just do whatever they want. They should have standards and be accountable. 

JMO


----------



## ocotillo

*LittleDeer* said:


> I think the media needs to be held responsible, along with society as a collective, in how they treat women, (and men).


As a man, I sometimes wonder if there's anything effective an individual can even do.

I lost a sibling to anorexia. This was 30+ years ago before most people were even aware of this disorder. It took the deaths of celebrities like Karen Carpenter to focus public attention on it.

But the instant I open my mouth and say something to the effect that the media promotes an impossible, unhealthy standard that young girls take to heart, I'm pounced on by people that are offended by that idea.


----------



## hambone

ocotillo said:


> As a man, I sometimes wonder if there's anything effective an individual can even do.
> 
> I lost a sibling to anorexia. This was 30+ years ago before most people were even aware of this disorder. It took the deaths of celebrities like Karen Carpenter to focus public attention on it.
> 
> But the instant I open my mouth and say something to the effect that the media promotes an impossible, unhealthy standard that young girls take to heart, I'm pounced on by people that are offended by that idea.


Are men as susceptible to advertising, as women are?

I'm asking a question... not making a statement.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ocotillo said:


> As a man, I sometimes wonder if there's anything effective an individual can even do.
> 
> I lost a sibling to anorexia. This was 30+ years ago before most people were even aware of this disorder. It took the deaths of celebrities like Karen Carpenter to focus public attention on it.
> 
> But the instant I open my mouth and say something to the effect that the media promotes an impossible, unhealthy standard that young girls take to heart, I'm pounced on by people that are offended by that idea.


I am the first to say that strictures on media content is a bad idea. But not because the "messages" are wholesome. The problem is not what they are selling. It is what we are eagerly buying. Who would be the arbiters of wholesome content? Sarah Palin? Any of our religious right leaders? You know they want the job! Anyone who has read The Handmaid's Tale will get a shiver at that thought. 

The problem is two fold. There is a great taboo around mental illness. Until we can treat mental illness the way we do physical (only hopefully we can start figuring out how to treat physical illness better too) without its victims being pariahs, we have no hope of helping people with things like anorexia. 

But also, the US culture has failed in the area of raising children. We seek behavior at the expense of growth and development, empathy and judgement. We seek grades and the expense of learning. We parents are generations into our own lack of mental health. How are we going to raise mentally strong children?


----------



## Happyfamily

lol.

Women who get defensive about hot young girls peddle this line about how the media is driving everyone's ideas about beauty. It's the other way around, and the evolutionary biology behind it is dreadfully simple: the ideal breeding age and health. 

Some of the rare exceptions to this near-universal cultural standard were covered in an anthropology class I had. For example, in societies like the Inuit where food resources regularly cycled into periods of starvation, being fat becomes a signal of both wealth and longevity. The fat ones are jolly too, whereas the starving ones have miserable lives. 

I've gained weight since having two kids, plus I'm older, plus I am not exercising like I was - and I accept responsibility for two out of the three.

If it meant enough to me, I'd be running four miles every morning again and doing circuit training on the weights in the afternoon. In fact, if my husband left me that is exactly what I would be doing. Blowing the doors off the lazy 18 year olds, and I figure I can pull that off until I am at least 35.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Happyfamily said:


> lol.
> 
> Women who get defensive about hot young girls peddle this line about how the media is driving everyone's ideas about beauty. It's the other way around, and the evolutionary biology behind it is dreadfully simple: the ideal breeding age and health.


I haven't really seen anyone getting defensive about hot young girls :scratchhead:


----------



## ocotillo

NobodySpecial said:


> I am the first to say that strictures on media content is a bad idea. But not because the "messages" are wholesome. The problem is not what they are selling. It is what we are eagerly buying. Who would be the arbiters of wholesome content? Sarah Palin? Any of our religious right leaders? You know they want the job! Anyone who has read The Handmaid's Tale will get a shiver at that thought.


I wouldn't be comfortable handing the reigns of censorship to any person or group with a religious or moral agenda, but I wonder if that is a needles bifurcation? 

We already have laws in place that forbid advertisers from making erroneous claims, misrepresenting their product, misleading people, etc.

I think situations, like the one below where a perfectly healthy, normally proportioned model (Filippa Hamilton) was photographically altered to the point where her pelvis was smaller than her skull are covered at least by the spirit of extant law, if not the letter. 










This is not defensible from the standpoint of evolutionary psychology and not representative of mainstream heterosexual notions of beauty.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

ocotillo said:


> As a man, I sometimes wonder if there's anything effective an individual can even do.
> 
> I lost a sibling to anorexia. This was 30+ years ago before most people were even aware of this disorder. It took the deaths of celebrities like Karen Carpenter to focus public attention on it.
> 
> But the instant I open my mouth and say something to the effect that the media promotes an impossible, unhealthy standard that young girls take to heart, I'm pounced on by people that are offended by that idea.


I'm really sorry to hear that. That's so sad. 

I think you are absolutely right. And the media and advertising should be held accountable, and we should have media standards, particularly where young people are concerned. 

There is so much evidence to support the fact that it does greatly impact and is mostly directed ex at girls and women, with devastating results. 

We do need to talk to our children about self esteem, and loving themselves, but let's face it they aren't with their parents 24/7. I always limited television and media to my children, and tried to get them to view it with a very critical eye. 

Again I'm really sorry about your sister. I have a niece with what looks to be anorexia at 11 (started a few years ago). Very sad.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I also want to point out that whilst yes people buy what the media are selling, it's not exactly people driving demand. There is a lot of research showing that the media tells us what we need to have/ look like, and puts that idea into our minds, and that is what drives demand. 

That's why companies spend millions on advertising, and product placement. It works.


----------



## soccermom2three

Even before photography, film or any other media, there were expectations put on women to look a certain way. If you look over the centuries, millennium even, you can find practices that women did to make them more desirable to men. Corsets, foot binding, rings around the neck to make them longer, etc.


----------



## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> As a man, I sometimes wonder if there's anything effective an individual can even do.


Effective? Maybe not. But as individuals we can stand up against it, refuse to buy into it --literally and figuratively --and speak out against it.

Not sure how effective it is. IME when you do this, people mostly just think you're a wing-nut who hates pretty people.

No matter how fantastical, these ideals are seen by many as both universal and biologically inevitable.


----------



## Enginerd

Happyfamily said:


> lol.
> 
> Women who get defensive about hot young girls peddle this line about how the media is driving everyone's ideas about beauty. It's the other way around, and the evolutionary biology behind it is dreadfully simple: the ideal breeding age and health.
> 
> Some of the rare exceptions to this near-universal cultural standard were covered in an anthropology class I had. For example, in societies like the Inuit where food resources regularly cycled into periods of starvation, being fat becomes a signal of both wealth and longevity. The fat ones are jolly too, whereas the starving ones have miserable lives.
> 
> I've gained weight since having two kids, plus I'm older, plus I am not exercising like I was - and I accept responsibility for two out of the three.
> 
> If it meant enough to me, I'd be running four miles every morning again and doing circuit training on the weights in the afternoon. In fact, if my husband left me that is exactly what I would be doing. Blowing the doors off the lazy 18 year olds, and I figure I can pull that off until I am at least 35.


Reminds me of a joke I heard:

"The best way to get your wife to lose weight is to divorce her"


----------



## always_alone

*LittleDeer* said:


> We do need to talk to our children about self esteem, and loving themselves, but let's face it they aren't with their parents 24/7. I always limited television and media to my children, and tried to get them to view it with a very critical eye.


It's not enough because disorders like anorexia are not just about individuals lacking in self-esteem. They are cultural products in a world where power and self-determination are focused on what passes between your lips. . 

And we know this because now that boys too are being caught up into the looks obsession, they too are falling victim to these same disorders in scores.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Biggest mistake?
Trusting people like Ted Bundy.
Last mistakes too.
For situations not so extreme, there is a second chance, third chance, fourth chance...
Second biggest mistake a woman makes, not (eventually) learning from mistakes. Usually amounts to trusting themselves and their own feelings and opinions.


----------



## Happyfamily

*LittleDeer* said:


> I also want to point out that whilst yes people buy what the media are selling, it's not exactly people driving demand. There is a lot of research showing that the media tells us what we need to have/ look like, and puts that idea into our minds, and that is what drives demand.
> 
> That's why companies spend millions on advertising, and product placement. It works.


lol. Since there is so much research showing that, then show us this research. Google returns nothing on "Media drives demand", but the first thing up on "Advertising Drives Demand" is an article explaining how wrong you are:

Advertising Does Not Create Demand, But... | ClickZ

A lot of good examples in there like how diabetes drug advertising can't make anyone without diabetes buy the drug. Etc. 

I had economics in college. Micro and Macro. What we learned was as this article says: consumer preferences drive demand. We did not learn that advertising drives consumer preferences.


----------



## jld

*LittleDeer* said:


> There are so many studies done about self esteem and the studies show the less women view TV and read magazines etc, the higher their self esteem.
> 
> In fact I was reading an interesting study about the influence of television on girls in (I believe) Fiji, they studied girls there before television became available in the 80's and they had much higher self esteem, had hardly any body issues (by comparison) and so forth, and when (american programs mostly) TV were introduced these issues skyrocketed.


I remember reading, many years ago, about how girls in a tribe in Africa were just told, from birth, that they were beautiful. Each in her own way, but each beautiful. What a healthy way to handle this.

There are many types of beauty, and the limited range in Hollywood is not representative of all of them.

I think each woman eventually has to decide that she loves herself just as she is, and accepts her body just as it is.


----------



## jld

*LittleDeer* said:


> We do need to talk to our children about self esteem, and loving themselves, but let's face it they aren't with their parents 24/7. I always limited television and media to my children, and tried to get them to view it with a very critical eye.


This is a big advantage of homeschooling, the being almost 24/7 with the parents (minus activities).


----------



## NobodySpecial

ocotillo said:


> I wouldn't be comfortable handing the reigns of censorship to any person or group with a religious or moral agenda, but I wonder if that is a needles bifurcation?
> 
> We already have laws in place that forbid advertisers from making erroneous claims, misrepresenting their product, misleading people, etc.
> 
> I think situations, like the one below where a perfectly healthy, normally proportioned model (Filippa Hamilton) was photographically altered to the point where her pelvis was smaller than her skull are covered at least by the spirit of extant law, if not the letter.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not defensible from the standpoint of evolutionary psychology and not representative of mainstream heterosexual notions of beauty.


Yes.I can agree with that.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Happyfamily said:


> lol. Since there is so much research showing that, then show us this research. Google returns nothing on "Media drives demand", but the first thing up on "Advertising Drives Demand" is an article explaining how wrong you are:
> 
> Advertising Does Not Create Demand, But... | ClickZ
> 
> A lot of good examples in there like how diabetes drug advertising can't make anyone without diabetes buy the drug. Etc.
> 
> I had economics in college. Micro and Macro. What we learned was as this article says: consumer preferences drive demand. We did not learn that advertising drives consumer preferences.


Lol 
Why would someone without diabetes buy a diabetic drug. That example makes no sense. 

I honestly think only the delusional think we aren't effected by the media. 

Here are a sample of the thousands of studies and articles to the contrary


http://www.mindlab.org/images/d/DOC828.pdf

Media | Life & Body Image Issues for Teens

Priming Effects of Television Food Advertising on Eating Behavior

An article on the effect on the introduction of the television to Fiji
Study Finds TV Alters Fiji Girls' View of Body - NYTimes.com

I could go on and on. 

If advertising and media did not effect people, no one would bother to advertise.


----------



## john117

Advertising impacts son but not all decisions. In many cases it impacts selection among candidates but does not create demand... In other cases it does create demand.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

With diabetes, you can reduce the need for drugs with proper nutrition and lifestyle changes. The drug ads portray someone happy with the status quo, the drugs provide the freedom, not the lifestyle changes, etc. It reinforces an acceptance and even celebration of pharmaceuticals vs. addressing the problem underlying diabetes epidemic to begin with. Most cases of Type II adult onset diabetes are preventable, a good portion are also reversible. 

Sometimes these ads show someone sitting down to a 'feast' of a typical American meal, showing all the 'foods' someone can eat with the drugs on hand taken before, it's like, drug yourself so you can do something that's become accepted, vs. changing what is accepted (what's on the table.)


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## always_alone

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> Sometimes these ads show someone sitting down to a 'feast' of a typical American meal, showing all the 'foods' someone can eat with the drugs on hand taken before, it's like, drug yourself so you can do something that's become accepted, vs. changing what is accepted (what's on the table.)


Yes. Media doesn't really sell us products--it sells us a fantasy. 

A fantasy that is immensely compelling because it says we can have it all -- be perfectly gorgeous in our perfectly gorgeous and clean houses, with heaps of sexy cars, clothes, stuff, we can eat what we want and still lose weight and stay healthy, travel where we want in comfort and style, do what we want without hardship or sacrifice, and all the world will stand in awe of us...

And it's only a dollar.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

john117 said:


> Advertising impacts son but not all decisions. In many cases it impacts selection among candidates but does not create demand... In other cases it does create demand.


It affects your decisions whether you know it or not. 
There is a lot of stuff embedded in these ads, even when you know it's stupid, you're still being played at a deeper psychological/cognitive level that you can know about, theoretically, but in practice you can't undo the effects. The subconscious has no ability to distinguish reality from fiction. It treats everything the same.


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## NobodySpecial

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> It affects your decisions whether you know it or not.
> There is a lot of stuff embedded in these ads, even when you know it's stupid, you're still being played at a deeper psychological/cognitive level that you can know about, theoretically, but in practice you can't undo the effects. The subconscious has no ability to distinguish reality from fiction. It treats everything the same.


There is a choice. Don't watch it. People act like they are victims of the media. But they can choose.


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## john117

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> It affects your decisions whether you know it or not.
> 
> There is a lot of stuff embedded in these ads, even when you know it's stupid, you're still being played at a deeper psychological/cognitive level that you can know about, theoretically, but in practice you can't undo the effects. The subconscious has no ability to distinguish reality from fiction. It treats everything the same.



I agree - thankfully I am the cognitive guy in the team and generally spot the "happy healthy looking fit kids plowing thru fast food menu" scenarios. But in order for it to work one has to be receptive. Most people are. 

The subliminal stuff is usually the way the as is framed, the background, the five frames' worth of a smile, the implied perfection in every dimension. Knot as much the sex crazed people who see sex written in every ad ever made (skittles ? Really) but an almost mindful placement of random things to create desire.


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## always_alone

NobodySpecial said:


> There is a choice. Don't watch it. People act like they are victims of the media. But they can choose.


It's just not that simple. Advertising is a multi-billion dollar industry, and is carefully crafted to capitalize on our best understandings of human psychology. 

And despite our beliefs about autonomy and self-determination, humans aren't actually all that rational in our consumerism. 

One of the best things I have ever done was cut my subscription to TV, as it way cut my exposure to ads. And I use ad blockers, avoid most magazines, and am pretty careful about the media I consume. Even so, I'm inundated every day. You practically have to live in a cave to escape.


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## NobodySpecial

always_alone said:


> It's just not that simple. Advertising is a multi-billion dollar industry, and is carefully crafted to capitalize on our best understandings of human psychology.
> 
> And despite our beliefs about autonomy and self-determination, humans aren't actually all that rational in our consumerism.
> 
> One of the best things I have ever done was cut my subscription to TV, as it way cut my exposure to ads. And I use ad blockers, avoid most magazines, and am pretty careful about the media I consume. Even so, I'm inundated every day. You practically have to live in a cave to escape.


Where are you seeing it? I don't see hardly any advertising at all. Ever. Though my state has a billboard law. So maybe that's it?


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## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> I wouldn't be comfortable handing the reigns of censorship to any person or group with a religious or moral agenda, but I wonder if that is a needles bifurcation?
> 
> We already have laws in place that forbid advertisers from making erroneous claims, misrepresenting their product, misleading people, etc.
> 
> I think situations, like the one below where a perfectly healthy, normally proportioned model (Filippa Hamilton) was photographically altered to the point where her pelvis was smaller than her skull are covered at least by the spirit of extant law, if not the letter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not defensible from the standpoint of evolutionary psychology and not representative of mainstream heterosexual notions of beauty.


That's scarecrow thin in the second pic. I don't think anyone believes that's an ideal model of beauty or at least large numbers do not. What it is is marketing, and being scarecrow thin will get our attention to see what the hell it is, and made us look.


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## always_alone

NobodySpecial said:


> Where are you seeing it? I don't see hardly any advertising at all. Ever. Though my state has a billboard law. So maybe that's it?


Lucky you! Billboards are everywhere where I live, including giant video screens running live action commercials 24/7, plus ads are all over public transit (on and in buses, bus shelters, subway stations, etc), in newspapers, on the internet (even with ad blocking), before movies in the theatre, and on and on


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## ocotillo

treyvion said:


> That's scarecrow thin in the second pic. I don't think anyone believes that's an ideal model of beauty or at least large numbers do not. What it is is marketing, and being scarecrow thin will get our attention to see what the hell it is, and made us look.


I agree that there is some shock value to this particular example. I purposely picked the most egregious one I'm personally aware of because it pretty much speaks for itself. 

I raised three daughters though and when they were all living at home, the house was often strewn with magazines aimed at their demographic. It only takes a cursorial sampling to see that this really is part of a larger pattern and Ralph Lauren is not the only designer to have pulled this stunt. Filippa Hamilton at 5'-10" and 120 lbs was eventually dismissed from Ralph Lauren because she could not fit into their clothes

Photographers can also "Back in" to the same look by taking a model who is already cadaverously emaciated and digitally altering the pictures to hide the health cost of extreme dieting.

This includes smoothing the cheek bones and filling out the hollows in the face, smoothing out and hiding ribs clearly visible in bas-relief, smoothing the sharp edges of the pelvic bones if they're visible, fleshing out the arms and shoulders a tiny bit, etc. This is apparently pretty common and a number of insiders, including Leah Hardy, a former editor at _Cosmopolitan _have spoken out against it.


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## Caribbean Man

I'm thinking that we are oversimplifying a complex situation.

To what extent can we really blame the media for people's personal perceptions of themselves and their behavior,learnt or otherwise, especially in the case of females and their body image issues ,eating disorders, et alia.

If this was accurate in every case of even in most cases, then the USA wouldn't have had the dubious honor of being one of the most obese country in the developed world.
Indeed, obesity and it's corresponding lifestyle diseases, are a literally a huge problem in all of the major developing countries in the West. 

An overwhelming 69% of Americans are overweight, according to this website.

FASTSTATS - Overweight Prevalence

Can we really blame the media for them being overweight and their lifestyle choices?
Obviously, no.
Then why doesn't the " excessively thin" media ideal seem to have the opposite effect on them?
and they are an overwhelming majority.
Another example is Mexico. 70% of Mexicans are overweight.

I think the media does affect our lives in both positive and negative ways. The extent to which it does differs from person to person and 
isn't as simple as we would like it to be.


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## heartsbeating

Caribbean Man said:


> Can we really blame the media for them being overweight and their lifestyle choices?
> Obviously, no.
> Then why doesn't the " excessively thin" media ideal seem to have the opposite effect on them?
> and they are an overwhelming majority.
> Another example is Mexico. 70% of Mexicans are overweight.
> 
> I think the media does affect our lives in both positive and negative ways. The extent to which it does differs from person to person and
> isn't as simple as we would like it to be.


I agree with your sentiment.

And as for health/weight - it is a complex situation. This includes the relationship between socio-economic factors and food availability as well as affordability.


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## hambone

Why aren't men subjected to such advertising as women are?


Or, are they?


Why don't men feel all the pressure from advertising that women do?


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## heartsbeating

Most of us are raised with stereotypes and learn how to behave and what we 'ought' to aspire to based on a variety of aspects. The key is to un-learn and then decide for ourselves.

Allow me a moment to stretch out on the therapy couch (I kid but bare with me). I like wearing make-up. Sometimes it's part mask, sometimes it's part expression. Now with that in mind, I see family a few times a year. When my dad and his wife recently visited and stayed with us, I'd been stressed and they knew about this. On their last day, my husband was at a work conference and the three of us decided to hang at home and then go to a local cafe before saying our farewells. I didn't feel like wearing make-up. My dad commented that I looked tired. I agreed that I was and had dark rings under my eyes. He questioned if I was going out like that. I was surprised. He reiterated how I looked and maybe I ought to consider putting make-up on. I told him it was my day off, I looked tired because I was, and I didn't feel like wearing make-up. He continued... (whah?!).... and thought it was funny to compare me to a Halloween costume. Charming. His wife told him to take the comment back. He didn't and instead again suggested I put make-up on to cover the dark rings. 

I told him it was a wonder I grew up as confident as I did and that he would have to deal with me looking the way I was, without makeup, as that's what suited me. 

Would he have made such a comment to my brother if he looked tired - not about wearing makeup - but would his physical appearance be questioned? Probably not. But I'm grown folk now and I'll pick and choose who's comments I'll take on board.

When husband arrived home, he said how beautiful I looked and he loved seeing me without makeup hahah. Even if it's the love talking, I'll take it.


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## always_alone

hambone said:


> Why aren't men subjected to such advertising as women are?
> 
> Or, are they?


They are. It's just that typically men were sent very different messages than women.

But that's changing, and men are now seeing more and more of the same looks-based images that women are bombarded with, and are adopting more and more of the same behaviours. Men are now seeking cosmetic surgery in huge numbers, where they rarely did before, and also increasingly suffering from eating disorders, poor body image, depression and so on.

I don't think it's a coincidence.


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## Happyfamily

*LittleDeer* said:


> Lol
> Why would someone without diabetes buy a diabetic drug. That example makes no sense.


EXACTLY. That is the proof of how silly your assertion is. 

Now it has become a bait-and-switch. You started with the implication everyone except you is a mindless media-obeying automaton. 

Now it is the much meeker "effected" (sp) by media. 

Glad you finally cited something. Let's look at them:



> http://www.mindlab.org/images/d/DOC828.pdf


Perfect! It does not explain why commercials feature slim models in beer commercials. Society prefers slim, that's why. Long before the Venus de Milo, "fat" was less attractive.

It also makes a very good point that the "media" does not have one archetype, which you so strongly imply. This study looked at commercials of slim models vs. commercials with average models.

Key point:

"The subjects of the study were within the class and age range most commonly associated with body image disturbances." lol. Affluent sorority girls. 

If you take girls who are predisposed to worry about their body image and show them slim models, they will feel fatter. Okay, I concede that. 

But that in no way suggests the automaton theory you claim, and more importantly has two counterpoints: there is no single body image portrayed by media, and the research does not ask why media portrays lean body images instead of obese people. 

Because obesity is unattractive. Not because the media tells us so. 


Will read the others presently. I actually did read that, which took quite a bit of time.


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## soccermom2three

I just thought of something for this thread. Actually I've been thinking about it for a while just observing the young women in my office.

I think some young women waste their youth. I work with women that are late 20's and early 30's. They dress sloppy, wear ill fitted clothes and wear no makeup. They come in to work with their hair wet. A few of them smoke and are very overweight. They just don't take care of themselves. 

The women 45+ in my office all look well put together and professional. 20 years ago when I was their age, I wouldn't be caught dead at work without makeup and wet hair.


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## hambone

always_alone said:


> They are. It's just that typically men were sent very different messages than women.
> 
> But that's changing, and men are now seeing more and more of the same looks-based images that women are bombarded with, and are adopting more and more of the same behaviours. Men are now seeking cosmetic surgery in huge numbers, where they rarely did before, and also increasingly suffering from eating disorders, poor body image, depression and so on.
> 
> I don't think it's a coincidence.


I wonder if the guys aren't wasting their money... 

Men are very visual.. Women.. not so much.

Or, are women becoming as shallow as men?


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## TiggyBlue

hambone said:


> I wonder if the guys aren't wasting their money...
> 
> Men are very visual.. Women.. not so much.
> 
> Or, are women becoming as shallow as men?


In my experience women are very visual, neither is shallow imo.

Either way cosmetic surgery, fashion, products ect are interested in making money and will spend a lot of money on developing marketing strategies to attract costumers.


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## TiggyBlue

heartsbeating said:


> Most of us are raised with stereotypes and learn how to behave and what we 'ought' to aspire to based on a variety of aspects. The key is to un-learn and then decide for ourselves.


100% :iagree:


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## FizzBomb

TiggyBlue said:


> In my experience women are very visual, neither is shallow imo.


:iagree:


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## options20

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.
> 
> My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups.
> 
> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


my girl would throughout relationship after relationship find people that only seemed to like her for the moment. She used to be so myopic in relationships.


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## ticktock33

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.
> 
> My therapist said that low self-esteem is one of the most common problems she sees in women, and it affects all age groups.
> 
> What would you say is the biggest mistake women make?


I think it is especially at a young age, it was for me and most of the women in my family. They don't know the power that they have.

Women are huge people pleasers for the most part, we want everyone to like and keep the peace. Pleasing ourselves first sounds so selfish and I fight hard against it. But now that I'm older and I just don't have time to worry so much, it's only hurting me. My mom says the same thing, it seems to come with age. I'm still working on it, but slowly I'm being forced to not care.

I think it's important to teach girls at a young age to demand the best from the men in their lives. But especially with someone you want to date and eventually marry. Not in a ridiculous 80 point list of what he has to have and not accept anything less. But something reasonable and stick to what you want, the right guy will appreciate you wanting him to be his best. Not just for you but for himself. Know what you want which means knowing yourself.

But that is scary and that is where self confidence comes in. Value yourself enough to expect something, not whatever comes along. It also makes better men because men want women, they want their company, respect and sexual relationships, to have kids eventually. Why buy the cow....


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## Sunburn

jld said:


> I know, I just steal thread ideas from the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> I think the biggest mistake women make is not valuing themselves enough. They judge by other people's standards, instead of their own. They try to please other people, instead of pleasing themselves.


This

As one example I live near a small town, about 25,000 people. It seems whenever I go to the store every woman looks the same,............. overweight, too much make-up, dyed blonde poodle hair, at least one visible tattoo and wearing clothes from the 70's. Maybe I just have a different taste in women or maybe it's because this town is pretty removed from any cosmopolitan center. But, it's not uncommon that I see one who, with a little time spent away from graduates of Cornfield County Beauty College, could be made into a knock-out.


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## john117

Join the club. I live in the Midwest in an affluent suburb and the first half of the women are what you describe and the second half are married to the high earners of the town who, judging from my neighborhood, used to be married to the first half at some point.

I wish I was joking but being the token guy in the PTO for 20 years with the same women kind of points things out to you...

Not that men are much better around here... You either have the inept pudgy guy or the helmet hair six pack exec guy... It just seems that people have put their lives in the hands of the autopilot and have no idea where they're headed.


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## that_girl

The biggest mistake I think women make is believing that they are supposed to be the caregivers for everyone....because that's what women do. They take care of everything and everyone. Nevermind if you're tired or struggling...still, take care of others.


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## that_girl

I'd also like to see more women just living for themselves and not waiting for another person to complete them.

Travel, have fun, be complete within yourself. Especially the young women. ALl the drama and stupidity around dating and men. Go out, do the things you want to do. Learn who YOU really are, not who you are as so-and-so's gf/wife. 

I tell my daughter this. Not to really think about any serious relationships until about 27 or so. In the meantime, LIVE. Don't sit around trying to make things work with people who aren't good enough, just because they're there. Do what you love and go from there.


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## Sunburn

that_girl said:


> I tell my daughter this. Not to really think about any serious relationships until about 27 or so. In the meantime, LIVE. Don't sit around trying to make things work with people who aren't good enough, just because they're there. Do what you love and go from there.


Same here, I always told my daughters....... there's 3 billion men in the world you don't have to settle for mediocrity.


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## that_girl

Sunburn said:


> Same here, I always told my daughters....... there's 3 billion men in the world you don't have to settle for mediocrity.


I just don't see a lot of young men sitting around stressing about women and finding the right woman and worrying their life is over because they aren't married by a certain age like all their friends.

Maybe I'm wrong.


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