# Ironclad proof?



## thebadguy

Wife forgot her phone at home yesterday. I know I have complained periodically on here about how much she texts another man. Well....I went through the messages she had. I still think she had deleted a significant number of individual messages as conversations just don't quite make sense. Would welcome all thoughts in both saying "it is definitely cheating" and saying "not necessarily cheating". AND....suggestions for best method of recovering deleted text messages and the technology aspect of it is 2 fold. She just replaced her phone. She is now on an iPhone 5s. Before Christmas, she was on a T-Mobile "mytouch" android. I think I can get my hands on the android and spend as much time as I like but the iPhone...She can't know I used it. As of right now, I think she does not know I know her password. So...on to the messages I read that suggest cheating to me...

W: So any questions on your mind?
OM: Naughtiest thought u had today
W: Hmmm...Thinking how I would love to explore the back roads around [town name] again...
OM: Ha
W: Alright, that may be a little lie...My naughtiest thought definitely had something to do about things you refrain from >=)
W: What was your naughtiest thought?
OM: None really. was good today.
W: Aaaaw... You're becoming a good guy the more entrenched I become in wicked ways... Way to be strong 
OM: Ha ha

W: So any wicked thoughts brewing now? or are you truly a good guy in the making?
OM: I am brain dead and crabby. So not my night.

After W talked about how messy the house was when she came home the day before (2 little boys and me messing it up)

OM: My house is trashed.
W: Why for?
OM: It always is.
W: So what I saw was the norm?
OM: Yeah.


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## MovingAhead

There is no suggestion. She is cheating on you. There is no doubt.


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## Clay2013

Its clear something is going on. What do you plan on doing?

Clay


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## tom67

Weightlifter will come by to help you out with this or send him a PM if you want.
Do you know who this guy is?
Is he married?


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## PhillyGuy13

Something is going on. Exploring back roads??

To retrieve deleted messages on her iPhone you will need substantial time alone with it to jailbreak it first then install spyware. It's a process and from what I read isn't always smooth.

But the messages you read pretty much tell you everything you need don't they? If not for the naughty thoughts and back roads comment, it could be interpreted as flirting or a mild EA though even complaining to another man about her husband's lack of housecleaning skills is over the line. 

Good luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

thebadguy said:


> W: So any questions on your mind?
> OM: Naughtiest thought u had today
> W: Hmmm...Thinking how I would love to explore the back roads around [town name] again...
> OM: Ha
> W: Alright, that may be a little lie...My naughtiest thought definitely had something to do about things you refrain from >=)
> W: What was your naughtiest thought?
> OM: None really. was good today.
> W: Aaaaw... You're becoming a good guy the more entrenched I become in wicked ways... Way to be strong
> OM: Ha ha


Major flirtation/heavy flirting going on here.

Also, the "backroads" comments suggest they have probably been down them together/cruising/spent time there together.



thebadguy said:


> OM: My house is trashed.
> W: Why for?
> OM: It always is.
> *W: So what I saw was the norm?
> OM: Yeah*.


She has been to his home.

Definitely inappropriate relationship.

Have they slept together? I don't know. But I am sure it has been on the table before, at least.

You can take from this that they flirt, she's been to his house and they may have gone out to wherever that town is together. The speaking of "naughty' things means they feel comfortable enough w/ eachother to discuss such intimate things/take their conversations up a notch w/ flirting in that manner. 

Conclusion: NOT just friends.


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## AlphaHalf

*Dont* let her downplay what she wrote and allow her to pretend these messages are "not what it seems".


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## thebadguy

I plan on collecting all the evidence I can. And then...I guess then I will confront her with it and see where it goes. We are almost 4 years past D-Day from an affair *I* had. Very little recovery. I would be a hypocrite if I gave her any less opportunity to salvage our marriage than she has given me...which I sure can't say what is real and what isn't. it has been an insane 4 years.


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## harrybrown

Save the emails that you have.

She is cheating on you.

What are you going to do about it? She does not respect you.

Have her get tested for stds. How old are your kids?


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## PhillyGuy13

I think he meant that when the wife came home and saw her messy house, she complained to the OM. OM was telling her that all houses with small kids are the norm (messy) so can't confirm she has been over his house. 

But again they've been out for drives down back roads.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13

It could be they "just kissed" down the back roads. But any physical contact would be a dealbreaker for me.

He doesn't really seem into her at this point. Deflecting her flirting. Maybe he got what he wanted from her and doesn't want to deal with her flirtiness now. Any idea who he is?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thebadguy

I do know the OM. I have met his wife, his son and daughter. I have played sports with him. 

I have brought up that their relationship is not appropriate. The argument is that what I did was in secret. She does not hide that she talks to this guy, so the lying and deception are not there (from her perspective). Obviously, deleting messages is deception and lying. Going to his house is lying if I didn't know. And if the back roads comment was a reference to time they spent together, then I definitely didn't know and I would bet on it being full blown PA from that.

I can't recall if I knew she went to his house or not. I know that may sound stupid, but I do recall an instance when she had a reason to drop by momentarily. She may not have been there to hook up. 

I guess in my mind, I need something that can't be misconstrued or explained away...thus I want to recover every conversation I can. I do know the relationship is not appropriate by the flirting and what I am reading as sex talk.


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## thebadguy

btw...she has been having texting conversations with him for the past 3 years at least.


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## tom67

thebadguy said:


> I do know the OM. I have met his wife, his son and daughter. I have played sports with him.
> 
> I have brought up that their relationship is not appropriate. The argument is that what I did was in secret. She does not hide that she talks to this guy, so the lying and deception are not there (from her perspective). Obviously, deleting messages is deception and lying. Going to his house is lying if I didn't know. And if the back roads comment was a reference to time they spent together, then I definitely didn't know and I would bet on it being full blown PA from that.
> 
> I can't recall if I knew she went to his house or not. I know that may sound stupid, but I do recall an instance when she had a reason to drop by momentarily. She may not have been there to hook up.
> 
> I guess in my mind, I need something that can't be misconstrued or explained away...thus I want to recover every conversation I can. I do know the relationship is not appropriate by the flirting and what I am reading as sex talk.


I would show his wife those texts. This is not appropiate at all.
Do not let your w know.


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## Jellybeans

thebadguy said:


> I have brought up that their relationship is not appropriate.


Expand.


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## tainted

Show his wife the text and see what she knows


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## PhillyGuy13

Anything on the old android phone? There are folks on here much more tech savvy than me on getting deleted messages off phones. I think even if you confront now you will get denials- we were just joking around, etc etc
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

thebadguy said:


> She is now on an iPhone 5s. Before Christmas, she was on a T-Mobile "mytouch" android. I think I can get my hands on the android and spend as much time as I like but the iPhone...She can't know I used it. As of right now, I think she does not know I know her password. So...on to the messages I read that suggest cheating to me...


If she's texting, there is no need to access the iPhone, the texts are right there in the backup files in iTunes. You just need the right programs to access them. OR you can do it the hard way using notepad to try and read them.


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## Plan 9 from OS

thebadguy said:


> btw...she has been having texting conversations with him for the past 3 years at least.


If you knew that she was texting this OM for 3 years, and you know/feel that the relationship is inappropriate, then WHY did you not yank this man out of your lives completely? I realize that you could have forced her to go "underground" with her relationship with the OM, but at least she would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt that her continued relationship with the OM in any capacity WILL jeopardize your marriage, period.

I get the sense that you told her you don't like her talking/hanging out with this man, she tells you nothing is going on and you respond with - nothing. Seems like you think that simply voicing your displeasure with your wife's relationship should do the trick. It clearly has not. Now what?


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## thummper

They sound much too "close" for my taste. If it was me, I'd be worried.


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## arbitrator

*Badguy: It's painfully obvious that something is going on more innocent than sightseeing the country roads around town or going over to the OM's house for a little interior decorating session.

And before finally dropping the bomb on her, I'd check her email and/or FB. As with me, you'll likely find a hell of a lot more there than you'd ever suspect!

By the way, does your W work with this lout?*


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## Acabado

Im glad to hear you are finnaly taking steps to uncover the minutiae of the obvious fact she's cheating on you for years. I believe this really means you are finnaly "ready" to get rid of this abuser. You knew she was cheating, still you were not ready to "discover it" and confront her becasue you weren't ready to make a lasting decision regarding the marriage, that's why you have been subjeting yourself to the sadism she displays.
Snooping is just the first step of many you know you have to take.

Be diligent on the snooping, weight even a confrontation is required, maybe you can divorce her with a better settlement and avoiding harm to your kids or youself without exposing her hypocrisy and gaslighting nature. She's violent and volatile and prone to parental alienation.


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## thebadguy

lordmayhem said:


> If she's texting, there is no need to access the iPhone, the texts are right there in the backup files in iTunes. You just need the right programs to access them. OR you can do it the hard way using notepad to try and read them.


Does she have to have connected the phone to the PC? Or is it automatic over wifi to the apple id?


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## thebadguy

tainted said:


> Show his wife the text and see what she knows


I feel like I need more than I have before I talk to his wife. I lose control of the situation once I tell her. And I definitely lose the appearance of not snooping.


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## lordmayhem

thebadguy said:


> Does she have to have connected the phone to the PC? Or is it automatic over wifi to the apple id?


For you to access the backup files, the phone does not need to be connected to the PC at the time. Everytime the phone is connects to the PC, itunes makes a back up file. You can set the phone to backup over wife.

Either way, the backup files are already there on the PC. I would recommend decipher Textmessage 5. It can recover even deleted iMessages.


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## thebadguy

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If you knew that she was texting this OM for 3 years, and you know/feel that the relationship is inappropriate, then WHY did you not yank this man out of your lives completely? I realize that you could have forced her to go "underground" with her relationship with the OM, but at least she would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt that her continued relationship with the OM in any capacity WILL jeopardize your marriage, period.
> 
> I get the sense that you told her you don't like her talking/hanging out with this man, she tells you nothing is going on and you respond with - nothing. Seems like you think that simply voicing your displeasure with your wife's relationship should do the trick. It clearly has not. Now what?


The marriage has been in jeopardy for 4 years or more. I told her I view it as an emotional affair and that it was preventing any hope for recovery. She told me she isn't doing/saying anything inappropriate. I backed off because I don't want to feel like I am trying to isolate her. My affair damaged relationships she had with other friends and well...I hear enough of how I have messed up her life. I am sensitive to the possibilities.


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## staystrong

She's cheating. 

Bide your time, just don't leave any clues. 

You may find some very damaging things. Things you don't want to read. In your anger and disgust, try not to reveal your hand.


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## Jellybeans

When did you first start noticing something was amiss between them? Because you said you brought up to her before how it was inappropriate. How long ago was that? What made you think that?


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## thebadguy

Jellybeans said:


> When did you first start noticing something was amiss between them? Because you said you brought up to her before how it was inappropriate. How long ago was that? What made you think that?


More than a year ago. My gut said 3 years ago. I do not normally have access to the cell provider records. But have had it for a couple months. 80% of her messages are with him. On active days, we are talking about 100+ messages per day between them. That much conversation with a member of the opposite sex says there is something up.

I have brought it up periodically. At one point (a few years ago), she told me he had propositioned her and she "would not sink that low". She also said she wasn't going to be isolated from other people any more than my affair had already caused her to be. She told everyone. Good for her.  Then she blamed me for anyone who didn't want to continue being her friend afterward.


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## arbitrator

tom67 said:


> *I would show his wife those texts*. This is not appropiate at all.
> Do not let your w know.


* And if you show them to her, I'll greatly wager that his old lady would clean up those texts of his a hell of a lot better than she cleans up their house!*


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## Plan 9 from OS

thebadguy said:


> More than a year ago. My gut said 3 years ago. I do not normally have access to the cell provider records. But have had it for a couple months. 80% of her messages are with him. On active days, we are talking about 100+ messages per day between them. That much conversation with a member of the opposite sex says there is something up.
> 
> I have brought it up periodically. At one point (a few years ago), she told me he had propositioned her and she "would not sink that low". She also said she wasn't going to be isolated from other people any more than my affair had already caused her to be. She told everyone. Good for her. Then she blamed me for anyone who didn't want to continue being her friend afterward.


Sorry, didn't realize that you had an affair prior to this. I suspect either your wife is looking to get her revenge or maybe she feels she can't reconcile with you in the end and thus checked out. You're going to have to lay all the cards on the table and tell her exactly where you are coming from and how you feel about her friendship and more recent actions. If that doesn't work, then the damage may be too great for her to overcome and you two will have to go your separate ways.


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## Jellybeans

thebadguy said:


> *80% *of her messages are with him. On active days, we are talking about 100+ messages per day between them.






thebadguy said:


> At one point *(a few years ago), she told me he had propositioned her and she "would not sink that low".*


Oy. This is when she should have ended contact with him.

So you had an affair, too?

You guys need to cut out these people from your lives completely and forever and get into marriage counselling. Read up on His Needs/Her Needs, the 5 Love Languages.

This guy is bad news for your marriage.


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## heartbroken0426

tom67 said:


> Weightlifter will come by to help you out with this or send him a PM if you want.
> Do you know who this guy is?
> Is he married?


I love how Weightlifter is "the guy" when it comes to help catching a WS.

I'm sorry but I think your wife is cheating. If she hasn't already had a PA with the OM, she is on her way but it sounds like she is already having one because she talked about how messy his house was. I also feel like she went on a long drive around town with him the way she made that comment about exploring the town.


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## tulsy

thebadguy said:


> ....
> W: So any questions on your mind?
> OM: Naughtiest thought u had today
> W: Hmmm...Thinking how I would love to explore the back roads around [town name] again...
> OM: Ha
> W: Alright, that may be a little lie...My naughtiest thought definitely had something to do about things you refrain from >=)
> W: What was your naughtiest thought?
> OM: None really. was good today.
> W: Aaaaw... You're becoming a good guy the more entrenched I become in wicked ways... Way to be strong
> OM: Ha ha
> 
> W: So any wicked thoughts brewing now? or are you truly a good guy in the making?
> OM: I am brain dead and crabby. So not my night.
> 
> After W talked about how messy the house was when she came home the day before (2 little boys and me messing it up)
> 
> OM: My house is trashed.
> W: Why for?
> OM: It always is.
> W: So what I saw was the norm?
> OM: Yeah.


They both exchange sexual fantasies with each other. 

They have definitely been alone together in a "backroad" area, in other words, they drove to a place where they could have privacy and be alone together. This is where they had sex. There is no other reason...they are adults, so you know they didn't go out there to talk about quilting.

They've also been to one of the houses together. 

They talk as much as any boyfriend-girlfriend/couple would talk, and much more than is appropriate for 2 people who are married to other people. They are having an affair, and it's both PA and EA.

You have to blow it up. Show the guys wife the amount of texts and what ever text content that you can.


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## tom67

tulsy said:


> They both exchange sexual fantasies with each other.
> 
> They have definitely been alone together in a "backroad" area, in other words, they drove to a place where they could have privacy and be alone together. This is where they had sex. There is no other reason...they are adults, so you know they didn't go out there to talk about quilting.
> 
> They've also been to one of the houses together.
> 
> They talk as much as any boyfriend-girlfriend/couple would talk, and much more than is appropriate for 2 people who are married to other people. They are having an affair, and it's both PA and EA.
> 
> You have to blow it up. Show the guys wife the amount of texts and what ever text content that you can.


I think you have enough evidence meet up with his w and show her.


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## distraughtfromtexas

She is cheating. Do whatever you need to get proof, because she's cheating. For me, this is proof enough that they are inappropriate and need to be NC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane

thebadguy said:


> W: So any questions on your mind?
> OM: Naughtiest thought u had today
> W: Hmmm...Thinking how I would love to explore the back roads around [town name] again...
> OM: Ha
> W: Alright, that may be a little lie...My naughtiest thought definitely had something to do about things you refrain from >=)
> W: What was your naughtiest thought?
> OM: None really. was good today.
> W: Aaaaw... You're becoming a good guy the more entrenched I become in wicked ways... Way to be strong
> OM: Ha ha
> 
> W: So any wicked thoughts brewing now? or are you truly a good guy in the making?
> OM: I am brain dead and crabby. So not my night.
> 
> After W talked about how messy the house was when she came home the day before (2 little boys and me messing it up)
> 
> OM: My house is trashed.
> W: Why for?
> OM: It always is.
> W: So what I saw was the norm?
> OM: Yeah.


You are completely off base in the way you are thinking about this. 

You had an affair four years ago and your marriage has been terrible since. Why? Your implication is that it is because your wife has not forgiven you and still is punishing you. She took up texting with this a-h0le three years ago, he propositioned her, you've told her you don't like it, she has said she's just friends and she doesn't care how you feel, you had the affair, now it's her turn to punish you for it.

ENOUGH. Punishment time has ended. Tell her that.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF SHE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH HIM OR NOT. The relationship clearly is inappropriate, too much texting, it makes you uncomfortable. That alone is enough.

Tell her that if she wants this guy, she can have him, but she can't have you at the same time. You made a choice to cheat. She made a choice to reconcile. You have taken your licks for four years.

First, tell your wife you have no intention of letting her carry on an affair in front of your face. Tell her you've paid the price, you've done your time, you've done everything you can to help her get over what you did, and if she can't get over it, then it's time you part ways. Tell her, no matter, you won't stay in the marriage while she carries on her affair. Don't ever tell her what you know or how you know. Say it like you mean it, with some confidence. Call it an affair, tell her the relationship ends immediately or you are moving on. If she refuses to end it, expose the affair to the other man's wife and let the chips fall. If it comes down to it, don't tell your wife you are exposing, just do it.

Time to go back to how "normal" spouses act. Treat each other with love and respect, or call it quits.


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## Kylie84

Will_Kane said:


> You are completely off base in the way you are thinking about this.
> 
> You had an affair four years ago and your marriage has been terrible since. Why? Your implication is that it is because your wife has not forgiven you and still is punishing you. She took up texting with this a-h0le three years ago, he propositioned her, you've told her you don't like it, she has said she's just friends and she doesn't care how you feel, you had the affair, now it's her turn to punish you for it.
> 
> ENOUGH. Punishment time has ended. Tell her that.
> 
> IT DOESN'T MATTER IF SHE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR WITH HIM OR NOT. The relationship clearly is inappropriate, too much texting, it makes you uncomfortable. That alone is enough.
> 
> Tell her that if she wants this guy, she can have him, but she can't have you at the same time. You made a choice to cheat. She made a choice to reconcile. You have taken your licks for four years.
> 
> First, tell your wife you have no intention of letting her carry on an affair in front of your face. Tell her you've paid the price, you've done your time, you've done everything you can to help her get over what you did, and if she can't get over it, then it's time you part ways. Tell her, no matter, you won't stay in the marriage while she carries on her affair. Don't ever tell her what you know or how you know. Say it like you mean it, with some confidence. Call it an affair, tell her the relationship ends immediately or you are moving on. If she refuses to end it, expose the affair to the other man's wife and let the chips fall. If it comes down to it, don't tell your wife you are exposing, just do it.
> 
> Time to go back to how "normal" spouses act. Treat each other with love and respect, or call it quits.


This. Enough is enough. If a partner decides to R after an affair, that partner cannot decide to have a revenge affair or feel entitled to go out and do the same thing. You R fully, or take the D road...not the back roads...


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## phillybeffandswiss

We see this type of reaction from former cheaters who are in reconciliation.



> I would be a hypocrite if I gave her any less opportunity to salvage our marriage than she has given me..


So? Many people are hypocrites, under the logic you are applying to yourself. Quite a few, using your beliefs, are on this board giving advice. That isn't meant to be offensive, but your beliefs can change. Go look at some of the advice given by people who have reconciled. I've seen many say "Oh, heck no, you better divorce that idiot." Then you'll read their thread and they are working it out with someone like worse than your wife.

Yes, you were an idiot, but that doesn't mean you must accept the same crap to be truly sorry.


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## Healer

Sounds like she's having a revenge affair somewhat in the open.


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## Chaparral

I cant remember a time that someone was found to be texting 100 times a day and was not having a sexual affair unless they were thousands of miles apart. Then it was an emotional affair.

I'm guessing all the OM had to say was " look what he did to you" and she fell for it.


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## Chaparral

Follow Lord Mayhem's instructions and you will get all the deleted texts. She knows you have read some of them so she just leaves the ones on there that doesn't implicate her, although it looks like she has screwed the pooch this time.


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## manfromlamancha

Sorry to have you here TBG. I have read all your threads to date and here are some of my observations and conclusions:


I don't know much about mental disorders and the names for various conditions such as BPD etc., but your wife is what I would call "Bat Sh!t Crazy" (BSC). I have seen this behaviour before first hand and fully recognise it. You need to get out of there.
Without wishing to minimise or justify what you did, if I understand it correctly, you had an EA but have been truly remorseful for it ever since. The affair was yours to own and be remorseful for which is what you did.
Your marriage on the other hand, is well and truly screwed and one of the causes (I dont think symptoms) is her being BSC! I would not have been able to cope all these years and am not sure that what you are doing is coping - it is more like surviving but this will eventually wear you down and break you down.
On top of all this, she started out on an EA 3 years ago with POSOM and it appears to now have gone PA. With no recognition or admission of either affair by her.
So if I were to add BSC + EA + PA + Your concern for your well-being as well as, more importantly, that of your kids, you need to be doing more than just collecting evidence about her affair. You need to be collecting evidence about her BSC'ness. There is no question about filing for D or not (I know you don't want to but this should not even be a question). What you should also be focussing on now is airlifting yourself and kids to safety (I know this sounds extreme, but from what you have told me wrt abusive behaviour in front of the kids, instability, physical harm to yourself and possibly the kids, I don't think that I am being over the top here). You need to start thinking in terms of restraining orders and her needing to be forced to get help with this.
Collect both kinds of evidence - affair related and BSC related and start lining up your ducks - see an attorney, protect finances and kids, etc. etc. (the good folk here will give you advice on what to do and how to cope).

You need to recognise this for what it is first and foremost and stop sugar-coating it. Then she needs to - one way or another.

Good luck, stay strong and do the right thing for you and yours.


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## LongWalk

Gather more evidence off her phone. VAR her car. You have enough to know that she is messing around but you can put together a more complete picture.


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## weightlifter

OP 
#1 STOP ACCUSING HER UNTIL READY! You are making this harder.
#2 STOP ACCUSING HER UNTIL READY! You are making this harder.
#3 STOP ACCUSING HER UNTIL READY! You are making this harder.
#4 STOP ACCUSING HER UNTIL READY! You are making this harder.

Ive written successful confronts for other posters. They are designed to destroy her will to resist! A confront obliterates her with evidence. Half azzed confronts do not work!

VARs and evidence

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.
Rule 1 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 2 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 
Rule 3 for this.
SHUT UP. Eyes open. YOUR mouth closed. confronting only makes them better at hiding. 

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 or ICDPX333 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener VEK90117: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or less often in the aisle with the fasteners like screws. The velcro pack is mostly blue with a yellow top. Clear pack shows the vecro color which is black or white. 

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Amazon has a pen VAR that can be placed in a purse or other small place to get remote conversations. Yes the pen works.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for four men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. 

Lets be very clear about what the VAR is for and is not for. It will not be court admissible evidence. It is not for the confrontation. IT IS TO GET YOU AHEAD OF THE AFFAIR so you can gain other real evidence by knowing the who and when. NEVER MENTION YOUR VAR EVIDENCE. As far as the cheater is concerned, they were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

If your wife comes home from an alone time does she immediately change liners, change panties possibly even immediately laundering them?, shower? This can be an after the fact clean up. Amazon sells a semen detection kit called checkmate.

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful. There is even a locator webpage you can track with.

Look for a burner phone. This is a second phone from a prepay service just used for cheating communications. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone" The dont use their main phone for cheating purposes.

There is an app out there called teensafe. Its for both Iphone and Android. It monitors texts, GPS and facebook. Needs no jailbreak. Not perfect and delayed but no jailbreak required.

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex

If he uses chrome or firefox, there is probably a list of saved passwords you can look at. Even if his email isn't saved there, people usually only use a couple of different passwords, so one from the list might work. 

For firefox it's Tools -> Options -> Security -> Saved Passwords

For Chrome it's the little box with three bars in the top right -> Settings - Show advanced settings -> Managed saved passwords

If paternity is in doubt, (gredit graywolf2) SNP Microarray: Unlike amniocentesis, a non-invasive prenatal paternity test does not require a needle inserted into the mother’s womb. The SNP microarray procedure uses new technology that involves preserving and analyzing the baby’s DNA found naturally in the mother’s bloodstream. The test is accurate, 99.9%, using a tiny quantity of DNA — as little as found in a single cell. 

Credit john1068 01-09-2014
Is her internet browsers set up to use Google as the default search engine? And does she use a gmail account? If so, she can delete here browser history all she wants, that only deletes the history that is localbin the browser itself...

On ANY computer, navigate to https://google.com/history. Log in using her gmail credentials and you'll have all history right there. Cant be deleted unless your wife logs in this same way...she'd only be deleting Chrome, IE, or Firefox history, not the Google history when deleting within the browser itself. 

01172014 1033A

There does not appear to be a function within the Android OS that allows the recall of deleted info as is found on IOS. However, even on Android, When a text is deleted, the OS simply "loses" the address to where it is on the memory chip, but it's still there. 

Go to your computer and navigate to Dr. Fone for Android @ Dr.Fone for Android - Android Phone & Tablet Data Recovery SoftwareAndroid Phone Data Recovery.

You can download a trial version if you're operating system is XP/Vista/Win 7/Win 8 all on either 32 or 64 bit.

Download the program to your computer, open it, connect the Android phone to the computer via the micro USB cable and follow the instructions on the Dr. Fone program. You can recover deleted SMS, MMS, photos (yes, this includes SnapChats), vids, and documents.

Not everything is recoverable because the operating system continues to overwrite the data so if you don't recover this data on a regular basis, you may miss some pieces...

But there are also many Android apps that store deleted files and texts, even some that allow you to download and HID the app (ex. ). 

Credit rodphoto 01162014 
After researching the web for countless hours about software to find deleted messages on my wife's iphone I figured out this super easy method.

From the home screen swipe left to right until the spotlight page appears. Its a screen with the key board at bottom and a box at the top that says "search iphone" type your typical search words, anything sexual etc... All past messeges containing the search word will appear on a list, deleted or not. You'll only get the first line but that is usually enough. Just busted my wife again doing this a few days ago!

Rugs: swipe left on your first page of the main menu.

"spotlight search" under settings -> general -> spotlight search has to show "messages" as ticked. 

Right here, right now: Taking screenshots on iOS devices -> hold down home button and press sleep button. The screenshot will be placed under your photo album.

Also there is an app to "stitch" messages like a panoramic photo, but only for iPad. go to app store and search "stitch". Damn it's 4 am. i need to go to bed. 

Note that this applies only to Spotlight Search in IOS 6 and lower. For IOS 7 running on Iphone 4 and 5, put your finger in the middle of any of the home screens and swipe downward. 

Type in the search string you want (telephone number, contact name, keyword, etc) and it will search every instance in the iPhone where that appears. 

You may FIRST want to go into the Settings>General>Spotlight Search and then check or uncheck the areas that you want to search - make certain that "messages" and "mail" are CHECKED or else your search will not look into these areas. 

The same info is on the spot light on the ipad too ! If the settings isnt checked off, you can find all the same history!


----------



## cool12

staystrong said:


> She's cheating.
> 
> Bide your time, just don't leave any clues.
> 
> You may find some very damaging things. Things you don't want to read. In your anger and disgust, try not to reveal your hand.


:iagree:

i love my bff to pieces and we can talk on the phone together for hours but texting 100 messages daily? never. there is definitely something going on. listen to the advice you get here about how to gather the evidence you need to prove it and make it happen.

good luck.


----------



## weightlifter

manfromlamancha said:


> i don't know much about mental disorders and the names for various conditions such as bpd etc., but your wife is what i would call "bat sh!t crazy" (bsc). I have seen this behaviour before first hand and fully recognise it. You need to get out of there.


quote of the week!

Who would think an amateur would discover a mental condition?


----------



## Acabado

manfromlamancha is right man.
Enough is enough.

You already knew, now collect evidence to further clear your mind and then plan carefully your next steps. Maybe confrontation and exposure of affair is not even a must.

Don't forget your VARs!!!


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> Does she have to have connected the phone to the PC? Or is it automatic over wifi to the apple id?


They are also in her Spotlight Search...don't even need to connect to a computer. All deleted texts are still held onto. Type in the contact TELEPHONE number and every text, even the deleted ones, will show up in the search.

IOS 7 from any home screen put your finger in the middle of the screen and swipe downward. Enter the telephone number and start reading the hits.

IOS 6 from the first home screen, swipe left, enter the telephone number and start reading the hits.

If you can't get it to work, PM if you want.


----------



## dogman

Tell me again why you want to save this marriage...


----------



## ThePheonix

My take is she has evened the score my man.


----------



## tom67

dogman said:


> Tell me again why you want to save this marriage...


I read another thread of yours.
Why are you still with her I mean come on do you want to be a martyr.
You made a mistake but geez.


----------



## tom67

I DON'T condone what you did but YOU have to forgive and respect yourself.
And yes it was a choice not a mistake.
TELL HIS WIFE!


----------



## alte Dame

Your W has been abusive for years now. You say you want to give her the chance to salvage your M that she has given you. Does this mean that you get to punish her now?

Truly, your relationship has been toxic. She has been cheating for years and doing it in front of you, feeling self-righteous because of your own infidelity 4 years ago.

For me, the only reason now to have ironclad proof is to inform the OMW, who has a right to know what her WH is doing. 100 texts per day - what bs.


----------



## tom67

alte Dame said:


> Your W has been abusive for years now. You say you want to give her the chance to salvage your M that she has given you. Does this mean that you get to punish her now?
> 
> Truly, your relationship has been toxic. She has been cheating for years and doing it in front of you, feeling self-righteous because of your own infidelity 4 years ago.
> 
> For me, the only reason now to have ironclad proof is to inform the OMW, who has a right to know what her WH is doing. 100 texts per day - what bs.


Show her the amount of texts you have enough you seem to find an excuse not to.
SIGH to each their own.


----------



## Machiavelli

thebadguy said:


> W
> W: Alright, that may be a little lie...My naughtiest thought definitely had something to do about things you refrain from >=)


This is the question: what is it your wife wants the OM to do that he doesn't do? And what does that symbol mean? I can imagine a couple of things, but I sure see that V.


----------



## thebadguy

Machiavelli said:


> This is the question: what is it your wife wants the OM to do that he doesn't do? And what does that symbol mean? I can imagine a couple of things, but I sure see that V.


My first thought was masturbating. But I hadn't thought of the possibility that there is something she wants him to do to HER that he refrains from...and I can think of plenty of possibilities.

I need to get to the deleted text messages.


----------



## warlock07

You read the bit about spotlight ?


----------



## dogman

I'll be totally honest.....if this was my situation....I'd see this as a blessing. You now have a reason to be done with a bat**** crazy wife. 
Her issues are way beyond you cheating or her cheating. This is great news. And by the way you don't need more proof.

THis is all I'd need to pull the trigger. And turn the tables.

The beatings will now stop, yahoo!


----------



## weightlifter

that emoticon measns
evil smile
little devil 
or evil grin

depending on which site I looked at it.

VAR up. You will have your answers inside 2 weeks and likely less than 1. I cant go to best buy for you.

Most important right now is stealth. 
Play captain clueless.


----------



## thebadguy

warlock07 said:


> You read the bit about spotlight ?


Yeah...testing it out on my daughter's phone...I am seeing stored messages. Not seeing deleted messages.


----------



## warlock07

How old is your daughter ?


----------



## thebadguy

warlock07 said:


> How old is your daughter ?


11. I periodically check her messages anyway. So I am not worried that she thinks I am doing something out of the ordinary with her phone.


----------



## thebadguy

So I have the old android in hand. I need to get to texts she has deleted. Anyone? t-mobile mytouch 4g. android version 2.3.6

Also...her new iphone is running iMessage, which means any texts she sends to another iphone over wifi is not going over the cellular network. Any ideas how to get to those? My count is probably quite low based on that.


----------



## Chaparral

thebadguy said:


> So I have the old android in hand. I need to get to texts she has deleted. Anyone? t-mobile mytouch 4g. android version 2.3.6
> 
> Also...her new iphone is running iMessage, which means any texts she sends to another iphone over wifi is not going over the cellular network. Any ideas how to get to those? My count is probably quite low based on that.


Go back to lordmayhems post.


----------



## thebadguy

I see the suggestion of Dr Fone for the Android. Any other suggestions? There are 200+ not deleted messages to/from the OM still on the phone but all are innocuous and with obvious gaps where messages have been removed.


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> I see the suggestion of Dr Fone for the Android. Any other suggestions? There are 200+ not deleted messages to/from the OM still on the phone but all are innocuous and with obvious gaps where messages have been removed.


The only way to get to deleted individual messages in Android is with a program like Dr Fone...Dr. Fone is a great program. And since your W hasn't been using the old HTC phone (and overwriting the previously deleted texts), there should be quite a bit of texts that are recoverable...

Before you do that, can you pull the cell phone details and determine how many texts were deleted and when they were made? Can you piece anything together with the timing of the texts?


----------



## thebadguy

john1068 said:


> The only way to get to deleted individual messages in Android is with a program like Dr Fone...Dr. Fone is a great program. And since your W hasn't been using the old HTC phone (and overwriting the previously deleted texts), there should be quite a bit of texts that are recoverable...
> 
> Before you do that, can you pull the cell phone details and determine how many texts were deleted and when they were made? Can you piece anything together with the timing of the texts?


Getting the call records has been like pulling teeth. It will take me another day to get the rest of what is available. But here is what I know.

11/17-12/17: They exchanged 827 messages (next closest is me with 181...but I sent over 100 of them)

Phone has less than 200 'active' messages between them spanning 12/6-12/23, though there are a few older....as in the next one after 12/6 is from October. Obviously they didn't go that long w/o talking, so they were all deleted. There are almost 367 MB free of system memory and almost 2 GB free on the SD card.

I have phone records going back 1 full year...a year ago between 1/17 and 2/17 they shared 1956 messages.

2/17-3/17 - 1298
3/17-4/17 - 2228

Dr Fone you say....what does the free version accomplish?


----------



## tom67

If you show his wife the amount of texts that is enough proof right there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> Getting the call records has been like pulling teeth. It will take me another day to get the rest of what is available. But here is what I know.
> 
> 11/17-12/17: They exchanged 827 messages (next closest is me with 181...but I sent over 100 of them)
> 
> Phone has less than 200 'active' messages between them spanning 12/6-12/23, though there are a few older....as in the next one after 12/6 is from October. Obviously they didn't go that long w/o talking, so they were all deleted. There are almost 367 MB free of system memory and almost 2 GB free on the SD card.
> 
> I have phone records going back 1 full year...a year ago between 1/17 and 2/17 they shared 1956 messages.
> 
> 2/17-3/17 - 1298
> 3/17-4/17 - 2228
> 
> Dr Fone you say....what does the free version accomplish?


I can only assume that, given the type of proof you're seeking, the freeware version will not provide you with what you need. 65 messages/day in January is brutal. You know what's going on, even if she gaslights you about it. I'm downloading the free version now and will let you know what it does.

FYI, my Android will automatically dump the oldest text in a thread when once it hits 200 texts. It's a default setting for Android. Though this can be changed from within the messaging app...but few people adjust it. The deletions may not have been purposeful. 

Question: Given the gap in texting between October and December, does she have Skype, or other messaging app on her device? 

If not, go into her Play Store, select the menu and then "My Apps" option. "Installed" should show up as the default, meaning all apps that are currently installed on the device. Change the option to "ALL" and scroll through all the apps she's ever downloaded, but may have deleted when she shut that phone down. Look for 
Snapchat
Whatsapp
Words With Friends
Skype
Voxer
CATE (Call and text Eraser)
Tiger Text
Vaulty Stocks
Auto SMS
Google Voice
Spy Pix
Hide it Pro
Fox Private Message
SMS Cleaner
Hide Photo

Many others, but these are the big ones.


----------



## thebadguy

john1068 said:


> I can only assume that, given the type of proof you're seeking, the freeware version will not provide you with what you need. 65 messages/day in January is brutal. You know what's going on, even if she gaslights you about it. I'm downloading the free version now and will let you know what it does.
> 
> FYI, my Android will automatically dump the oldest text in a thread when once it hits 200 texts. It's a default setting for Android. Though this can be changed from within the messaging app...but few people adjust it. The deletions may not have been purposeful.
> 
> Question: Given the gap in texting between October and December, does she have Skype, or other messaging app on her device?
> 
> If not, go into her Play Store, select the menu and then "My Apps" option. "Installed" should show up as the default, meaning all apps that are currently installed on the device. Change the option to "ALL" and scroll through all the apps she's ever downloaded, but may have deleted when she shut that phone down. Look for
> Snapchat
> Whatsapp
> Words With Friends
> Skype
> Voxer
> CATE (Call and text Eraser)
> Tiger Text
> Vaulty Stocks
> Auto SMS
> Google Voice
> Spy Pix
> Hide it Pro
> Fox Private Message
> SMS Cleaner
> Hide Photo
> 
> Many others, but these are the big ones.


I don't think there's a gap...just the provider has made it difficult to get the records. Having to copy/paste and haven't gotten through them all yet.

The 'limit' is 200. yes. but looking at the phone records and looking at her messages, she has deleted a lot, including some pictures she sent him and a lot of late night texts.


----------



## Tobyboy

Machiavelli said:


> This is the question: what is it your wife wants the OM to do that he doesn't do? And what does that symbol mean? I can imagine a couple of things, but I sure see that V.


1. Not use protection. 
2. Anal
3. Come inside her. 
4. All the above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> I don't think there's a gap...just the provider has made it difficult to get the records. Having to copy/paste and haven't gotten through them all yet.
> 
> The 'limit' is 200. yes. but looking at the phone records and looking at her messages, she has deleted a lot, including some pictures she sent him and a lot of late night texts.


I've downloaded Dr. Fone free version. But apparently the phone must be at least 20% charged for it to work, I'm at 3%. So I've got to charge it up a bit first. Will let you know what I come up with.


----------



## weightlifter

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hmmm methinks we have our phone guru now.


----------



## lordmayhem

decipher textmessage. I paid for it and I know it can recover even deleted iMessages.


----------



## john1068

lordmayhem said:


> decipher textmessage. I paid for it and I know it can recover even deleted iMessages.


I think decipher textmessage is for iPhone only...


----------



## Chaparral

Isn't her new phone an iphone?


----------



## thebadguy

Chaparral said:


> Isn't her new phone an iphone?


Yes, the new phone is an iPhone. It will take me some time to have reason to run a backup on the iPhone or at least to have 10 minutes alone with it to plug it in and run a back up w/o announcing what I am doing. In the meantime, I am focused on the Android and the phone records. I did run a backup of my daughter's iPhone yesterday to get practice at recovering the deleted messages.


----------



## tulsy

thebadguy said:


> ... I did run a backup of my daughter's iPhone yesterday to get practice at recovering the deleted messages.


What a way to carry on a marriage...having to practice recovering deleted messages in secrecy to just find out what she's up to.

Man, I feel for you bro, but is it even worth it? This is no way to live life.

I hope you get the answers you are looking for, but even if you don't, you do realize you will have to continue living like this if you stay with her, don't you? I mean, once you start heavy snooping it becomes something you have to do...you become compelled to check up on her because you can't trust her.

Just something to think about. I wish you luck.



alte Dame said:


> For me, the only reason now to have ironclad proof is to inform the OMW, who has a right to know what her WH is doing. 100 texts per day - what bs.


Exactly. I hope that's all he's doing this for...getting his ducks-in-a-row for the big reveal and split.


----------



## thebadguy

tulsy said:


> What a way to carry on a marriage...having to practice recovering deleted messages in secrecy to just find out what she's up to.
> 
> Man, I feel for you bro, but is it even worth it? This is no way to live life.
> 
> I hope you get the answers you are looking for, but even if you don't, you do realize you will have to continue living like this if you stay with her, don't you? I mean, once you start heavy snooping it becomes something you have to do...you become compelled to check up on her because you can't trust her.
> 
> Just something to think about. I wish you luck.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. I hope that's all he's doing this for...getting his ducks-in-a-row for the big reveal and split.


Ducks in a row and frankly, to get my head on straight. She has been way out of control for the past 4 years. I have been in the guilt of feeling like I wasn't trying hard enough. I have been acquiescing to many demands, including being out of the house for a couple months last year. Come to find out, while I was out of the house at her request, she was in the house texting this guy relentlessly. And she says now she "had peace" during that time. Call me crazy, I want to know exactly what has gone on without the words coming out of her mouth. I have told her already (months ago now) that this relationship is an affair and for our marraige to work, it needed to end. I need her to know I know everything. I think it is the only way I am going to get to peace. Because no matter what, I have to deal with her as a co-parent for the next 15+ years. Ya'll can tell me it will "destroy me" all you want...but if you haven't read the OTHER thread about the events of the past 4 years....you don't know how much of a relief it is to believe the treatment I have endured is not all a consequence of my own actions. And it is also a relief....and perhaps I will catch some backlash for this...but it is a relief to think one day I can tell my kids their mother's behavior over the past 4 years has not been about me and what I did but about herself and what she was doing...or at least that her own actions were a large component.


----------



## ThePheonix

Just to followup on Tulsy's comment Dawg, why would you want to stay with someone who wants to replace you. If you feel like you've got to keep her penned up to her there what's the use?


----------



## Acabado

Man, gather the evidence, for you peace of mind.
But once you get it wait to cool your head before any confrontation. If I were you I'd look for the TAM member Uptown on how to deal with a BPD wayward prone to violence and parental alination as yours. He had to divorce his and it was a complete nightmare. At least look at his posts, he uses to post very interesting info.
If your wife were a typical wayward I wouldn't hesitate to encourage the usual steps but she isn't so I believe you should think more on mid/long term consequences then the immediate satisfaction of the confrontation.


----------



## thebadguy

I have read Uptown...he has posted on my threads too. I have learned much of the danger first hand. I recognize exposing her affair could change HER game in ways that would be dangerous...either in escalating physical violence or by deciding she has no choice but to falsely accuse me of something to regain the 'upper hand'. 

I will not be putting myself in a position to be accused of anything. Thus...I am not going to go to her and say "I know you are cheating with jerkface. Fess up." She might fess up. She might jump on top of me and start strangling me. She might wait until midnight, cut herself, and call 911 blaming it on me. And she might do all 3 or worse. (or she might do none of the above) I am not yet sure how I will handle any of it, but I know I need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt what has been going on.

Unrelated - T-Mobile's member site is miserable. They deployed a new version back in November and it has been awful since. You can pull up usage details for a previous month about 1 out of 30 tries. I don't know if it is high usage hours that make it stink or if their data calls to get the records are just soooo poorly written that they have put time limits on how long any given query can run before it is terminated...but geezo...3 months...call Oracle...get a good DBA to fix that junk. I've only collected 2 more months of data today because their site is so broken.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison

thebadguy said:


> I I will not be putting myself in a position to be accused of anything. Thus...I am not going to go to her and say "I know you are cheating with jerkface. Fess up." She might fess up. She might jump on top of me and start strangling me. She might wait until midnight, cut herself, and call 911 blaming it on me. And she might do all 3 or worse. (or she might do none of the above) I am not yet sure how I will handle any of it, but I know I need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt what has been going on.


You need more information so you can save THIS marriage??

Why would anybody want 2 live like that?

-ol' 2long


----------



## alte Dame

I read your earlier threads, BG, and remember your descriptions of your life with your W. She is definitely abusive & one very worrisome thing was the way she treats your children in all of this.

It's understandable that you want to protect yourself and your kids when you do what you have to. It appears that she has used your guilt for years to grant herself the freedom to cheat.

Can you get some real human customer support from T-Mobile to help you? Or perhaps a forensic investigator?

(Just an aside: I would bet that T-Mobile is using SAP.)


----------



## Racer

Back when I went through this several years ago... an advantage of T-Mobile is you could download the usage in an Excel format. Due to this, I was able to sort by phone number and total it all up nice and neat for the confrontation. 20 pages using a 8point font of just the calls over a two year period to OM#1.... Seeing in it's massiveness broke her to admit it was more than just a friendship (also helped that her best friend and me didn't take more that a page). Because in her mind, she talked to us 'just as much'. Um... no... here's the facts.

btw; when I researched, your divorce attorney could subpoena the physical text messages and T-Mobile keeps them for years. I didn't go that route, but was seriously tempted.


----------



## weightlifter

BG. Do YOUR thing. Some men need to get their ducks in a row and be absolutely sure before they act on certain things.

I do hope you d even if you fail tho. No man deserves to play target.


----------



## MattMatt

thummper said:


> They sound much too "close" for my taste. If it was me, I'd be worried.


As, of course, should OM's wife and children.


----------



## thebadguy

So I think I have looked at all of the deleted messages that are still on the android and have only very limited new information. Definitely nothing ironclad. A few texts hinting at meeting up but never being clear about it. A few flirty texts, but nothing indicating actual contact. No pictures of any consequence. I have to say I think I know there is an affair. Just frustrated with the lack of proof. Suggestions for direction?


----------



## Clay2013

Can you take her phone at night while she is sleeping? 

I think personally at some point I would not be as patient as you are. I think I would be more inclined to go get her phone right in front of her. If nothing more than to just to see her reaction. If it turns into a fight then that is exactly what it would be but she would not get it back until I looked through it. 

I know you may not want to do that but sometimes Its better to just get it out in the open than let it drag on any longer. 

Sorry you are even going through this.

Clay


----------



## MattMatt

Kylie84 said:


> This. Enough is enough. If a partner decides to R after an affair, that partner cannot decide to have a revenge affair or feel entitled to go out and do the same thing. You R fully, or take the D road...not the back roads...


Sometimes a BS can drift into what amounts to a RA without meaning to. I know I did.

And, had my AP had a mobile phone and had my mobile phone had text capabilities, would we have sent each other hot and steamy text messages? Almost undoubtedly.


----------



## thebadguy

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes a BS can drift into what amounts to a RA without meaning to. I know I did.
> 
> And, had my AP had a mobile phone and had my mobile phone had text capabilities, would we have sent each other hot and steamy text messages? Almost undoubtedly.


I don't follow the message you're trying to communicate...

If there were a full affair going on, I would have found more in the text messages?


----------



## tom67

TBG
The amount of texts and the ones you showed us at the beginning of this thread is PLENTY proof to expose to his wife.
800 plus texts in a month?
My 15 yr old daughter doesn't even do that.


----------



## MattMatt

thebadguy said:


> I don't follow the message you're trying to communicate...
> 
> If there were a full affair going on, I would have found more in the text messages?


No. Merely thinking back to my asinine RA.

Your wife is almost certainly cheating but, like me with my wife, your wife probably never intended to cheat on you.

But she is.


----------



## Tobyboy

I agree with Tom. You do have iron proof!!! Now, if you want more "details" just take her phone and leave(preferably when she's asleep) and extract ALL texts and pics using the programs advised here. 
Case closed!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> So I think I have looked at all of the deleted messages that are still on the android and have only very limited new information. Definitely nothing ironclad. A few texts hinting at meeting up but never being clear about it. A few flirty texts, but nothing indicating actual contact. No pictures of any consequence. I have to say I think I know there is an affair. Just frustrated with the lack of proof. Suggestions for direction?


Were you able to extract any previously deleted texts on the Android, thousands of them going way back? And you say you found nothing _ irongclad _, but did you find anything suspicious, other than thousands of texts between the two of them? 

Did you go to her Play Store account to see if any covert apps had at one time been downloaded? 

As you already acknowledged,you know there's something going on. The quantity of texts is simply amazing. 

Eventually, every cheater makes a mistake. Be prepared for when she leaves her iPhone behind again. 

You will find what you need on it. Note an update toSpotlight search...keep using keyword searches and skip using the telephone number. 

I can tell you that if my W were texting another man as often as your W does, I'd **** that down right quick. I wouldn't give a sh!t what her reasons were. That kind of time and energy spent on another man is unacceptable. She has zero respect for you. Take a stand with her, draw the line, start using the VAR.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## sidney2718

I don't understand something. Why is the OP looking for "ironclad" proof of an affair? Divorce takes only one, not two. I'd file for divorce and be done with it since I assume OP lives in a no-fault state.

Can someone smarter than I explain?


----------



## Clay2013

sidney2718 said:


> I don't understand something. Why is the OP looking for "ironclad" proof of an affair? Divorce takes only one, not two. I'd file for divorce and be done with it since I assume OP lives in a no-fault state.
> 
> Can someone smarter than I explain?


As soon as you figure it out let me know. It sounds crazy to me at this point in time as well. 

The only thing I can figure out is that some people that go through this are in some sort of denial. They hope deep in there heart its not true and with all the evidence they find they still somehow need more. 

I hope for his sake soon he wakes up and deals with it. 

Clay


----------



## Chaparral

I think he is trying to determine if its a physical affair or "only" an emotional affair. I don't think there is any definition of emotional affair that would say this isn't one. I'm supposing if she has also been getting laid he might think about divorce.


----------



## thebadguy

If it sounds crazy, possibly it is. 

The short version is this...I believe my digging is the only source of answers on this subject I will ever have. And after the last 4 years of insanity...I need all the answers I can get for my own mental health.


----------



## weightlifter

Everyone must walk their own road dude.

I would suggest put an end date of your choosing for the spy thing then file D the day after. IE get what you need but dont let it take two years.

EAs is no excuse for being hit.


----------



## tom67

weightlifter said:


> Everyone must walk their own road dude.
> 
> I would suggest put an end date of your choosing for the spy thing then file D the day after. IE get what you need but dont let it take two years.
> 
> EAs is no excuse for being hit.


Only you can figure out when you have had enough abuse.
Get some ic if you can.
It is not normal for one to put up with this for years.
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

thebadguy said:


> If it sounds crazy, possibly it is.
> 
> The short version is this...I believe my digging is the only source of answers on this subject I will ever have. And after the last 4 years of insanity...I need all the answers I can get for my own mental health.


Don't sweat the reason, just be careful you don't become obsessed. It makes sense to me why you need to know 100%.


----------



## turnera

thebadguy said:


> OM: My house is trashed.
> W: Why for?
> OM: It always is.
> W: So what I saw was the norm?
> OM: Yeah.


If she maintains that she has never been to this man's house, yes, she's cheating.


----------



## turnera

Tobyboy said:


> I agree with Tom. You do have iron proof!!! Now, if you want more "details" just take her phone and leave(preferably when she's asleep) and extract ALL texts and pics using the programs advised here.
> Case closed!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly what I would do, if I were of a mind to stick around (I'm not; I'd just pack up and leave.). So what if you take her phone? She's putting you through agony. If she 'loves' you, she shouldn't mind.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> This is exactly what I would do, if I were of a mind to stick around (I'm not; I'd just pack up and leave.). So what if you take her phone? She's putting you through agony. If she 'loves' you, she shouldn't mind.


:iagree::iagree:

Sigh it's looking like a doormat.
Tell the guy's wife it looks like you are afraid to this has been going on for years.
Stop the suffering already.


----------



## Tobyboy

thebadguy said:


> If it sounds crazy, possibly it is.
> 
> The short version is this...I believe my digging is the only source of answers on this subject I will ever have. And after the last 4 years of insanity...I need all the answers I can get for my own mental health.


It took me six months of daily listening to VAR recordings (On landline, we didn't have cell phones at that time..'99) before I busted my FWW in her EA. Keep digging... Keep posting!!


----------



## clipclop2

The OM's wife probably has the puzzle pieces that are missing. There is no reason to do all of the work when she has access to his phone and computer.

My take on the original exchange is that something happened, it was minor, she wants more, he doesn't want to shut her down because the possibility is important to him, but he isn't into her.

He is too smart to implicate himself. That's why his messages,are so indirect and avoiding.

The messages that are deleted are the ones she pushed the boundaries too much.

His wife is probably sick and tired of your wife. Get her help.

BTW, you aren't off the hook for your affair. This is just a different location along Dysfunction Alley.


----------



## Chaparral

An ea is just as bad as a physical affair, just not as bad as a physical/emotional affair combined. What exactly is your deal breaker?


----------



## Centurions

Damn. Go and get divorce papers done up. Meet her at the dinner table and slide the papers to her. Tell her to get her **** packed, and hit the curb. You're done. You know she is a lying, cheating ***** that is BETRAYING you. She's probably already spread her legs and ****ed this other man. At the end of the day, she's already betrayed you *in her heart*. Why would you want to waste anymore time on a woman that doesn't love you, and yearns to be in the arms of another man?

Life is too short. You deserve far better.

Get it done, and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

Clay2013 said:


> As soon as you figure it out let me know. It sounds crazy to me at this point in time as well.
> 
> The only thing I can figure out is that some people that go through this are in some sort of denial. They hope deep in there heart its not true and with all the evidence they find they still somehow need more.
> 
> I hope for his sake soon he wakes up and deals with it.
> 
> Clay


I've not figured it out. But my take on things is that the quickest way, in cases like this, to get at truth is to file for divorce and then have the spouse try to save the marriage. 

If the spouse isn't interested, there it is.


----------



## tom67

sidney2718 said:


> I've not figured it out. But my take on things is that the quickest way, in cases like this, to get at truth is to file for divorce and then have the spouse try to save the marriage.
> 
> If the spouse isn't interested, there it is.


He doesn't want to expose maybe he still feels guilty for his ea:scratchhead:don't know I'm done here.


----------



## thebadguy

I get there are people for who don't get it. It's ok. I am sure it is frustrating to what someone struggle through this.

I took the phone last night. Backed it up to the PC. I used SQLite explorer to parse everything. Compared what I had to what was sent using the phone. I believe she is deleting anything she doesn't want me to see before she puts the phone back down. Downloaded the suggested Decipher Textmessage (but version 7). When I hit 'recover', it said there were 80ish deleted messages. But the snippet of text they showed were all from messages I had already seen...not actual "deleted" messages. So is that software just a lame gimmick and opening the backup file using a SQLite client is just as good? 

I also used a hex editor to open the file directly. Still quite ugly though a bit better than wordpad/notepad. Given we are talking about more than 500 messages between the two of them since Christmas in a garbled read, after a few 'key word' searches yielded nothing, I gave up for the night.

Incidentally, for the benefit of someone facing a cheater with an iPhone, iMessages only show up as tiny blips of data in your cell carriers usage data. No phone numbers. No times. Just a date and a size. Their AP has to use an iPhone too....but the backup told me he uses an iPhone also. Consequently, almost all messages sent between them are iMessages not SMS. So on the phone records, it now looks like they have dramatically reduced texting.

So...a few questions:

For users of Decipher Textmessage, do you believe/have experience with it really recovering 'deleted' text messages? I noticed at the top of the backup file that it had sql around cleaning up orphaned messages. So I am wondering.

For iMessage users/trackers....anyone using iMessage on multiple devices...I know the 'parent' device is notified any time a new device uses the same apple id. Does that happen EVERY time the 2nd device logs in? That is....if I use an iPod to access her messages as they fly, if the ipod sleeps or is disconnected from wifi, will she be notified? What if i log out of messaging? AND does adding an apple ID to iMessage change anything in terms of the appearance of messages to the user? That is...if I add her apple id to her iMessage account, will she know other than if she looks at settings?


----------



## Squeakr

thebadguy said:


> I get there are people for who don't get it. It's ok. I am sure it is frustrating to what someone struggle through this.
> 
> I took the phone last night. Backed it up to the PC. I used SQLite explorer to parse everything. Compared what I had to what was sent using the phone. I believe she is deleting anything she doesn't want me to see before she puts the phone back down. Downloaded the suggested Decipher Textmessage (but version 7). When I hit 'recover', it said there were 80ish deleted messages. But the snippet of text they showed were all from messages I had already seen...not actual "deleted" messages. So is that software just a lame gimmick and opening the backup file using a SQLite client is just as good?
> 
> I also used a hex editor to open the file directly. Still quite ugly though a bit better than wordpad/notepad. Given we are talking about more than 500 messages between the two of them since Christmas in a garbled read, after a few 'key word' searches yielded nothing, I gave up for the night.
> 
> Incidentally, for the benefit of someone facing a cheater with an iPhone, iMessages only show up as tiny blips of data in your cell carriers usage data. No phone numbers. No times. Just a date and a size. Their AP has to use an iPhone too....but the backup told me he uses an iPhone also. Consequently, almost all messages sent between them are iMessages not SMS. So on the phone records, it now looks like they have dramatically reduced texting.
> 
> So...a few questions:
> 
> For users of Decipher Textmessage, do you believe/have experience with it really recovering 'deleted' text messages? I noticed at the top of the backup file that it had sql around cleaning up orphaned messages. So I am wondering.
> 
> For iMessage users/trackers....anyone using iMessage on multiple devices...I know the 'parent' device is notified any time a new device uses the same apple id. Does that happen EVERY time the 2nd device logs in? That is....if I use an iPod to access her messages as they fly, if the ipod sleeps or is disconnected from wifi, will she be notified? What if i log out of messaging? AND does adding an apple ID to iMessage change anything in terms of the appearance of messages to the user? That is...if I add her apple id to her iMessage account, will she know other than if she looks at settings?


I have never had excellent luck recovering deleted messages, and generally if she has updated the IOS since, everything prior will be deleted. I find the DB method just as effective as any of the other methods (all finding essentially the same, it is just the others are basically easy GUI for the non-tech crowd).

As for the iMessage, you should only see notifications about the other accounts receiving the iMessage when it is first set up/ added to the account, or in some cases if issues arise on the iMessage servers, but then play dumb like you don't know what is happening, and if enough devices are there they really might n to notice. After being set up, all messages should be mirror'd to all devices without the original device/user being any the wiser, except if you have the "send read receipts" option on, then the other party will be notified when it is read and the original device will have the message marked as read as well, and disappear from the not read options (although it should still show up on the lock screen, but I have seen it disappear from there as well, so I turn that option off on the "other" devices to be safer). 

Not sure what you mean about adding the appleID to the message account? You can only have one "appleID" associated to each message account, although you can have multiple email addresses added to a single "appleID". We have one "appleID" and then we all use our own email address for the iMessage, so this way the parents can monitor the communication of the younger kids (yes my kids have devices they can use at home only (wifi only devices) and they know we monitor, so nothing big brother happening here, but I can also see the WW's texts, and she knows this, so it is up to her to be truthful).

Hope this helps.


----------



## thebadguy

Squeakr said:


> I have never had excellent luck recovering deleted messages, and generally if she has updated the IOS since, everything prior will be deleted. I find the DB method just as effective as any of the other methods (all finding essentially the same, it is just the others are basically easy GUI for the non-tech crowd).
> 
> As for the iMessage, you should only see notifications about the other accounts receiving the iMessage when it is first set up/ added to the account, or in some cases if issues arise on the iMessage servers, but then play dumb like you don't know what is happening, and if enough devices are there they really might n to notice. After being set up, all messages should be mirror'd to all devices without the original device/user being any the wiser, except if you have the "send read receipts" option on, then the other party will be notified when it is read and the original device will have the message marked as read as well, and disappear from the not read options (although it should still show up on the lock screen, but I have seen it disappear from there as well, so I turn that option off on the "other" devices to be safer).
> 
> Not sure what you mean about adding the appleID to the message account? You can only have one "appleID" associated to each message account, although you can have multiple email addresses added to a single "appleID". We have one "appleID" and then we all use our own email address for the iMessage, so this way the parents can monitor the communication of the younger kids (yes my kids have devices they can use at home only (wifi only devices) and they know we monitor, so nothing big brother happening here, but I can also see the WW's texts, and she knows this, so it is up to her to be truthful).
> 
> Hope this helps.


So...turn read receipts off if it is on. If she deletes messages from the phone, they will still be on the ipod, true? 

Thank you. Your response was very helpful.


----------



## Chaparral

Did you check out the program lordmayhem posted?


----------



## thebadguy

Chaparral said:


> Did you check out the program lordmayhem posted?


I tried Decipher Textmessage 7. I don't think it found anything I had not already read in the results of a sql query.


----------



## thebadguy

thebadguy said:


> I tried Decipher Textmessage 7. I don't think it found anything I had not already read in the results of a sql query.


He had recommended Decipher Textmesage 5.


----------



## Squeakr

thebadguy said:


> So...turn read receipts off if it is on. If she deletes messages from the phone, they will still be on the ipod, true?
> 
> Thank you. Your response was very helpful.


Yes, turn off "send read receipt" otherwise it will mark the message as read if you open it before they do (I believe the default setting is off, just verify before), and adding a new email to her appleID will alert her on her phone, so be prepared for that, or do it when you have control of her device.


I just tried deleting a part of a message on my the iPhone and the line was deleted from the iPhone but not from the Mac Message program. I hadn't tried a full message but should respond the same way (i.e. what was downloaded and exists on the iPod, _should_ remain even when deleted on the other device, bear in mind I haven't fully tested this as I don't have any messages at the time that I can delete.).


----------



## john1068

As you work your way through the TeenSafe service, take notice...in the event that you do discover the intel you need to take action against your wife/marriage, that you NEVER divulge how you got your information. You DO NOT need to show HER what evidence you have, only that you have it, in incontrovertible evidence. If you tell her you spied using such a service, depending on the state in which you live, you could be charged with a criminal offense, if you W wishes to take it there...just be VERY careful with you lips...


----------



## Squeakr

john1068 said:


> As you work your way through the TeenSafe service, take notice...in the event that you do discover the intel you need to take action against your wife/marriage, that you NEVER divulge how you got your information. You DO NOT need to show HER what evidence you have, only that you have it, in incontrovertible evidence. If you tell her you spied using such a service, depending on the state in which you live, you could be charged with a criminal offense, if you W wishes to take it there...just be VERY careful with you lips...


This is true depending on how bad they want to push it, of course they too would then have to prove how you got it and just say you saw it on the device and forwarded it to your device. As long as you have permission from her to be on the device, or you pay for it, then you can be cleared and anything they push would go into the court trial which makes them less apt to push the issue. My family knows I already have everything go through the servers and multiple devices and they approve so you could go that route as well (get the proof first and then ask for their permission, as then they have to prove the info was gotten prior to their approval and they won't be able to so you are also clear). There is more than one way to cya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

thebadguy said:


> I took the phone last night. Backed it up to the PC. I used SQLite explorer to parse everything. Compared what I had to what was sent using the phone. I believe she is deleting anything she doesn't want me to see before she puts the phone back down. Downloaded the suggested Decipher Textmessage (but version 7). When I hit 'recover', it said there were 80ish deleted messages. But the snippet of text they showed were all from messages I had already seen...not actual "deleted" messages. So is that software just a lame gimmick and opening the backup file using a SQLite client is just as good?


You made me access a program I haven't used in a long time. I still have version 5.4.14, and haven't updated it since we upgraded from the 3GS to a Samsung Galaxy some time ago.










I've used it to recover deleted iMessages from known iMessages from other iPhones. If you can use SQLite and make sense of the data, then good for you. I don't have the time to use that.


----------



## thebadguy

For future reference, this query makes it very easy. You just have to know the file you are looking for in the backup folder (the file starts with 3d...and it is the only one that does).

SELECT datetime(message.date, 'unixepoch', '+31 years', '-6 hours'), handle.id, message.text FROM message, handle WHERE message.handle_id = handle.ROWID;

I later added type from the message table to determine which were SMS and which were iMessage. But this gets you the date/time, the other person's number, and the text of the message in a format that can be put in excel.


----------



## KellyFromDecipherMedia

thebadguy said:


> So...a few questions:
> 
> For users of Decipher Textmessage, do you believe/have experience with it really recovering 'deleted' text messages? I noticed at the top of the backup file that it had sql around cleaning up orphaned messages. So I am wondering.


Hi thebadguy!

Hopefully you don't mind an answer from a Decipher TextMessage developer too, but I encourage people using it to post their experiences too. What the "recover" functionality does is look for those deleted rows that you need to use textedit or a hex editor to comb through the file to find. SQLite Explorer will only show you the undeleted rows.

Sidenote, I am interested in the blurbs that you saw about cleaning up orphans, for two reasons. 1) It is possible that someone hacked their own sqlite file to really purge those deleted rows when they're deleted, and I'm just plain curious if that's what it is. 2) Likely those blurbs are about cleaning up the attachment files, and those blurbs don't always work. If you'd like to chat about recovering deleted attachments, send us an email (feel free to ask for Kelly so I know the context of the email!)


----------



## thebadguy

buford said:


> Sorry your going through this. I'm trying to discover if I'm going through it as well...
> 
> Not trying to hijack your thread, bt as this seems to be a place where iphone text message recovery is being discussed, I have a question;
> 
> My wife has never backed up her phone. She has never connected it to iTunes. Is there a way I can connect to my PC and back up to iTunes with out her knowing? IOW, if I register here iphone as a device my iTunes will recognize, will there be anyway she'll be able to tell just by looking at her phone? Or if she does at some point connect it to her PC?


My wife had never connected, but I am the 'technologist' of the family (and I know her password...she may or may not know I know it, but she hasn't changed it). iTunes will ask you if you want to set it up 'as new' or 'restore from backup'. You pick 'new'. 

I believe you either have to know the password for the phone or it has to already be unlocked. If you don't, you could maybe get her to connect it. I personally took advantage of 10 minutes she was upstairs. That's about how long you need. Make sure it doesn't attempt to sync all music or anything like that.


----------



## Squeakr

Also if she ever decides to connect it to her PC, it will report that it is syncing to another computer currently, would you like to start syncing it this computer, and it sometimes wipes the data and starts fresh.


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> For future reference, this query makes it very easy. You just have to know the file you are looking for in the backup folder (the file starts with 3d...and it is the only one that does).
> 
> SELECT datetime(message.date, 'unixepoch', '+31 years', '-6 hours'), handle.id, message.text FROM message, handle WHERE message.handle_id = handle.ROWID;
> 
> I later added type from the message table to determine which were SMS and which were iMessage. But this gets you the date/time, the other person's number, and the text of the message in a format that can be put in excel.


Any progress with TeenSafe? They have a 6 day free trial that is a full-version...I can imagine with their level of texting, 6 days should be sufficient to find what you're looking for If they are in a P/A...these things will be discussed via text....you'll have it real-time...And if in 6 days you don't have anything but small-talk, pay the $15 for the next 30 days...


----------



## Chaparral

buford said:


> Will this occur even if you don't "sync" the iphone, but rather only backit up?


Could you just tell her you have no idea what the hell the phone is doing? Most people are completely lost on this stuff.

When I hooked up an itouch to my computer it says its already synched to another computer, did I want to switch computers?


----------



## weightlifter

couple things. First synch will be more than 10 minutes unless you practice on your own phone first.

John 1068 is right that it would be typically less than a week... BUT can be 3 weeks... There is a very large minority that hook up about once a month (28 day woman month) thus three weeks is a good possibility...

BTW John1068 don't take this wrong. You are 100% weightlifter approved! We need a phone guy and I think you fit the bill nicely. Just sayin.


----------



## john1068

weightlifter said:


> couple things. First synch will be more than 10 minutes unless you practice on your own phone first.
> 
> John 1068 is right that it would be typically less than a week... BUT can be 3 weeks... There is a very large minority that hook up about once a month (28 day woman month) thus three weeks is a good possibility...
> 
> BTW John1068 don't take this wrong. You are 100% weightlifter approved! We need a phone guy and I think you fit the bill nicely. Just sayin.


Thanks, weightlifter, and you are correct, in particular to a OP who really needs the goods on his/her WS before confronting, more time budgeted for intel is better than too little. The OP either needs to be all-in or keep riding the rug-sweeping behavior. 

I strongly urge anybody to NOT go with a trial version of anything. They are not full-featured, and will not yield the results you need - i.e. you can get false-negatives, and that only continues the OP's schizophrenic feelings.

While data recovery from a smartphone or computer is possible, it is very complicated and is far from ideal. It's only one piece of the unwrapping of the mystery, but it is not the kingpin of uncovering an affair. 

An OP must put into practice several methods of investigation, the easiest and most fruitful of which is the VAR. Clearly the badguy's WW is a bit ahead of the curve than are most WS's regarding covering their tracks. While she's not gone underground with her connection with her AP, she's definitely playing a seriously sick game of catch me if you can. I see this as an invitation...

Employ multiple VARs, Keylogger, spyware on phones, Find My iPhone, and even a PI. The best possible scenario for extraction and monitoring of an iPhone is to jailbreak it and then use invisible, incredibly covert spy apps to monitor every move - you can listen in, you can snap photos, you can snap screenshots, you can record video, you can get all texts sent/received, etc, all remotely and invisibly. Pretty creepy stuff, but all's fair in love an war.

thebadguy, if you WS does not connect to iTunes via USB, spring for the iCloud backup, 5 GB is free, but go ahead and subscribe to an adequate plan, and set it up for her phone to sync to the cloud. While you're at it, set up her photo stream to be published to the cloud as well...this will upload every photo taken immediately to the cloud, along with the GPS coordinates.

Once this sync is established, extracting the text logs will be significantly easier...While it may take 4 weeks of tracking, it may take just as much time to actually decipher what is going on...this is a tedious process. This will take time to bring this to close.


----------



## KellyFromDecipherMedia

buford said:


> My wife has never backed up her phone. She has never connected it to iTunes. Is there a way I can connect to my PC and back up to iTunes with out her knowing? IOW, if I register here iphone as a device my iTunes will recognize, will there be anyway she'll be able to tell just by looking at her phone? Or if she does at some point connect it to her PC?


Ah this is a great question. You do not have to associate the phone with the iTunes library you're connecting to to make a backup. You may have to "setup as new" (but if they sync to their own computer you shouldn't need to.) but then you select to backup instead of sync.

How do I make a backup? (Note: it's not just syncing!) : Decipher Tools FAQ Support

Syncing is what does all of the music, contacts, videos, etc transfer, backing up won't do any of that. Also don't muck around with the wifi sync settings.

In case anyone is curious, sync and backup can be confusing, so here's a little blurb I wrote about it a while ago:
Decipher Media: iTunes Sync vs Backup -- How to Ensure You Keep Your Data


----------



## thebadguy

Well...I spilled some of the beans. Should probably have held back but let her know the stats on her texting with him. How it is an outrageous amount. Let her know I have seen questions about 'naughtiest thoughts' and 'back roads'. Have found other bits that I didn't let her know I know but the basic notion that I KNOW there is more going on there than there should be. She hasn't directly denied physical intimacy and hasn't denied that there has been sex talk. She only suggested that it is ridiculous that I try to shift the blame for our lack-luster recovery to her.

I did tell her if she wants things to have a chance of working between us that she has to stop. The quantity of text messages have reduced substantially since I brought it up. Possibly gone underground. Possibly added a texting app. But I do see SOME messages, so I am a bit confused about that.

My mind is so twisted around this because of how we got to this point. She does not see it as a betrayal, lying, or further damaging our damaged relationship. She just wakes up mad every day because I can't loudly express how wonderful she is.

It seems a bit hopeless and pointless and at the same time, I am afraid I am wrong and afraid of hurting my kids more.


----------



## turnera

Your kids will hurt more if she walks all over you and teaches your kids not to respect you.


----------



## thebadguy

What are the steps to stop being a doormat? Is that the 180? How is it different given I had an affair first?


----------



## Chaparral

thebadguy said:


> What are the steps to stop being a doormat? Is that the 180? How is it different given I had an affair first?


Its the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. You haven't seen that recommended here thosands of times. HOLD ONTO YOUR N U T S , and NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. NMMNG can be downloaded free if you google it.

I take it nothing turned up on the vars?


----------



## turnera

thebadguy said:


> What are the steps to stop being a doormat? Is that the 180? How is it different given I had an affair first?


IMO, it would include first taking ownership for your cheating, in whatever form that takes - what makes her ok with your remorse, you being 100% honest from now on, you always doing whatever it takes to ensure she has no reason to distrust you.

Then, when dealing with what SHE has done, read those books, but also do this:
Never beg for anything.
State what you require in a marriage.
If you see her backsliding, you hold her accountable and issue a consequence.
You take steps to ensure you are never compromised. 
You get a life to show her that you will be fine without her.
If she does anything wrong, you show her that you're moving on.
Never hide the truth from anyone if the subject comes up - explain it rationally, logically, without emotion. If she brings up what you did, admit it.
Let her see what you are doing to get a new life. 
Do NOT become her servant or do her any favors. She chose this, she gets to live it.


----------



## Acabado

You are not a doormat you are her personal punching bag.

You can't apply the standard tools with crazy and abusers.

Just my opinion but I'm sorry friend, it's beyond repair.

Talk to a dad friendly lawyer, follow the advice to a tee. Meanwhile yes, hard 180, comeplte detachment, start planning a life far from her.


----------



## tom67

Acabado said:


> You are not a doormat you are her personal punching bag.
> 
> You can't apply the standard tools with crazy and abusers.
> 
> Just my opinion but I'm sorry friend, it's beyond repair.
> 
> Talk to a dad friendly lawyer, follow the advice to a tee. Meanwhile yes, hard 180, comeplte detachment, start planning a life far from her.


And tell his wife!


----------



## Dyokemm

"And tell his wife!"

This for sure.

This is probably a full blown A since she is so dodgy about the sex questions.

His BW has a right to know.

Congratulate your WW on becoming as big a POS as you ever were with your A. Tell her you won't be taking any more of her s**t since she is now as bad as you ever were.

And blow this POSOM up with his W.

What a F'ing dirt bag.


----------



## thebadguy

Wife changed the password to t-mobile today. I asked why. She said it is because I am a self-righteous bast*** perpetually looking for excuses to show no compassion.

I haven't convinced her in 4 years that I care enough about her to move forward with an actual marriage. I can't seem to get started moving on without her. Living in limbo is killing me.


----------



## Acabado

thebadguy said:


> Living in limbo is killing me.


You keep taking blue pills, everyday, sugarcoating your situation to survive.
You are not in limbo, you are in hell. 

Somehow it - must - works for you. When the pain of staying trumps the pain of changing you will make your move.


----------



## thebadguy

The pain of leaving is to be a part time dad. 

I don't have my head straight on this issue. I want to be their champion. I am not clear what that looks like in this crazy house. 

If we divorce, they have to deal with her without me and she will push them to refuse to spend time with me...like she does with her daughter from her first marriage with her father. Probably harder. 

If we stay together, I am showing them how to tolerate anything. all the while being portrayed as the bad guy by her to them even though I know they see the contradiction between her words and my behavior.


----------



## vi_bride04

So end the limbo. Why wait for her to make a decision?


----------



## Dad&Hubby

thebadguy said:


> The pain of leaving is to be a part time dad.
> 
> I don't have my head straight on this issue. I want to be their champion. I am not clear what that looks like in this crazy house.
> 
> If we divorce, they have to deal with her without me and she will push them to refuse to spend time with me...like she does with her daughter from her first marriage with her father. Probably harder.
> 
> If we stay together, I am showing them how to tolerate anything. all the while being portrayed as the bad guy by her to them even though I know they see the contradiction between her words and my behavior.


So you're saying you can raise your kids 100% of the time in a toxic house or only have them live in a toxic house 50% of the time....?

Hmmmm

"Hmm you think that's air you're breathing?"


----------



## turnera

I've seen many men here come back and say leaving is the best thing they did. They said that on the time they don't have their kids, they're getting other stuff done, and living a life they love, so when they do have the kids, they're energized and ready to have fun with and be happy around the kids. And that's what kids need most. Having two homes is probably more prominent nowadays than having one, so it's not like you're making them outcasts or anything. And having YOUR home be full of love and integrity and understanding will go a long way toward helping them grow up happy and healthy.


----------



## thebadguy

turnera said:


> I've seen many men here come back and say leaving is the best thing they did. They said that on the time they don't have their kids, they're getting other stuff done, and living a life they love, so when they do have the kids, they're energized and ready to have fun with and be happy around the kids. And that's what kids need most. Having two homes is probably more prominent nowadays than having one, so it's not like you're making them outcasts or anything. And having YOUR home be full of love and integrity and understanding will go a long way toward helping them grow up happy and healthy.


I hear the advice and I know there are divorce forums out there too. Given the alienation that has already gone on and the 12+ years I have watched how she interacts with her EX and what she says about him to other people (including his daughter), I am fearful of a worst case scenario....and of that worst case scenario being really bad. I will stop whining now. 

I am slowly coming around to the conclusion that there is nothing to salvage and that the longer I wait is just more time wasted.


----------



## LongWalk

Did you VAR her car?

The texts that you recovered were unacceptable. Hard to imagine she has had sex with him. But if she hasn't then it is a twisted friendship that is not compatible with monogamy.

Go for 50/50 custody.


----------



## bfree

thebadguy said:


> The pain of leaving is to be a part time dad.
> 
> I don't have my head straight on this issue. I want to be their champion. I am not clear what that looks like in this crazy house.
> 
> If we divorce, they have to deal with her without me and she will push them to refuse to spend time with me...like she does with her daughter from her first marriage with her father. Probably harder.
> 
> If we stay together, I am showing them how to tolerate anything. all the while being portrayed as the bad guy by her to them even though I know they see the contradiction between her words and my behavior.


Teaching them to tolerate anything is a good thing? I would think you would want to teach them to stand up for themselves, have confidence and strive for success? Guess I'm not too bright.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

If you D, your kids will have one stable home that 100% looking out for them and their needs. Yours.

If you wife/stbxw falls off the deep end, so be it. From what I've read here so far, this may happen even if you stay.

If she turns in to a flaming train wreck, you pull your kids from from the mess and don't look back.

I know, easier said than done, but what's the alternative? Stay there playing cat and mouse in front of the kids? Kids will figure out what's going on and what's even worse, they may grow to emulate it...


----------



## turnera

thebadguy said:


> I hear the advice and I know there are divorce forums out there too. Given the alienation that has already gone on and the 12+ years I have watched how she interacts with her EX and what she says about him to other people (including his daughter), I am fearful of a worst case scenario....and of that worst case scenario being really bad. I will stop whining now.
> 
> I am slowly coming around to the conclusion that there is nothing to salvage and that the longer I wait is just more time wasted.


In most cases, you living apart and leading a good, wholesome, healthy life that your kids live in half the time will wash out any bad things she says about you because the kids will be living with you and seeing it's not true. They'll come to want to be with you more than her; they'll figure it out. Under the same roof, they are just confused.


----------



## thebadguy

bfree said:


> Teaching them to tolerate anything is a good thing? I would think you would want to teach them to stand up for themselves, have confidence and strive for success? Guess I'm not too bright.


I was saying teaching them to tolerate anything was a bad thing.


----------



## thebadguy

LongWalk said:


> Did you VAR her car?
> 
> The texts that you recovered were unacceptable. Hard to imagine she has had sex with him. But if she hasn't then it is a twisted friendship that is not compatible with monogamy.
> 
> Go for 50/50 custody.


No var in the car. 

I am reading what you wrote as 'hard to imagine she hasn't'. I have told her the friendship is not compatible with us being married. I have asked her what they have done. She has refused to answer...maybe that is revenge and there is no substance. Maybe it is her trying to preserve her self image by not telling a lie (just refusing to tell the truth).


----------



## SF-FAN

thebadguy said:


> The pain of leaving is to be a part time dad.
> 
> I don't have my head straight on this issue. I want to be their champion. I am not clear what that looks like in this crazy house.
> 
> If we divorce, they have to deal with her without me and she will push them to refuse to spend time with me...like she does with her daughter from her first marriage with her father. Probably harder.
> 
> If we stay together, I am showing them how to tolerate anything. all the while being portrayed as the bad guy by her to them even though I know they see the contradiction between her words and my behavior.


I'm a part-time dad right now and was scared at the thought previously. Do I think it's the ideal situation? No, but the WW is going to do what she is going to do. The sooner I realized I can't make someone love me or control their actions, the sooner I started to feel some sort of peace. I still love her and still hope for some kind of reconciliation in the future BUT that all depends on her. I am moving forward on my own.

It's like when you jump into a pool - at first you think it's going to be super cold but once you actually do it, you'll be o.k.


----------



## Squeakr

thebadguy said:


> I was saying teaching them to tolerate anything was a bad thing.


Unfortunately in life you need to learn to be tolerant, as not all things are within your control (be it job, school, or otherwise related). I think that is part of the problem with our kids these days, we teach them that they are to be handled entirely with kid gloves and should be praised and rewarded every step of the way for their achievements and faults (the whole no one loses attitude and everyone gets a trophy mentality is not good either). I work with many of the younger generation (no direct insult meant to them, as we have raised them to behave this way) and they feel a sense of entitlement that I have never seen nor experienced before and it is actually shameful.


----------



## thebadguy

Squeakr said:


> Unfortunately in life you need to learn to be tolerant, as not all things are within your control (be it job, school, or otherwise related). I think that is part of the problem with our kids these days, we teach them that they are to be handled entirely with kid gloves and should be praised and rewarded every step of the way for their achievements and faults (the whole no one loses attitude and everyone gets a trophy mentality is not good either). I work with many of the younger generation (no direct insult meant to them, as we have raised them to behave this way) and they feel a sense of entitlement that I have never seen nor experienced before and it is actually shameful.


Yeah...that's not me. And that wasn't what I was talking about either.

To be specific, I don't want my kids to tolerate being bullied or abused.


----------



## LongWalk

thebadguy said:


> No var in the car.
> 
> I am reading what you wrote as 'hard to imagine she hasn't'. I have told her the friendship is not compatible with us being married. I have asked her what they have done. She has refused to answer...maybe that is revenge and there is no substance. Maybe it is her trying to preserve her self image by not telling a lie (just refusing to tell the truth).


Sorry, yes typo there


----------



## thebadguy

Had a really bad night last night. Has been brewing for the past week. It is the week of d-day, actually...that was Monday. 4 years. 

My stepdaughter told my wife last night that she was still seeing a boy that my wife had 'forbidden' her to see. She's 15. The boy is friends with another boy who hit his girlfriend. I agree he isn't company she should keep. Her dad allows her to go out with him when she is over there. It is a mess. That somewhat triggered my wife. I came home to her having had 2 glasses of wine and looking for someone to unload on. She started unloading on me. My 6 yo son started kicking me. It is his defense mechanism. My wife starts yelling, he starts telling her he loves her and if I am around he starts kicking or hitting me. He came to kick me at one point (in socks this whole time) and slipped on the wood floor. He fell on his butt. She erupted. He started crying. She starts hitting me telling me i knocked him down. I have bruises today on my shoulder, elbow and back from it. 

She goes to take the 15 yo to a sports practice and starts herding the boys to go with her. I tell her she isn't driving the kids anywhere because she is intoxicated. All this time she is yelling at me and I can smell the wine. She hasn't taken a drink in an hour but I can smell the wine. So I end up taking the 15 yo to her practice but she refuses to let me take the boys (I know I should have...I also know it would have escalated the situation further). 

I came home to relative quiet. It stayed that way until 5am when she woke me up to talk (I don't normally wake until 6). Every time she starts yelling in front of the kids, I tell her I am happy to talk, but she needs to stop putting them in the conversation. So...she found a time. Compared to last night, this morning was a calm conversation, but at one point, she went to the kitchen, got a bag of flour, took a handful and tossed it into her own face as an illustration of how she hurts still. She also slapped herself a few times on the chest and detailed how she wishes sometimes that she could push her fingernail through the veins in her wrist and end the torment.

In the midst of this, I have no idea what is going on with her affair. She has changed the password for the carrier's website and changed the password to her phone. 

I don't think I can take anymore or let anymore happen around my kids. And I am afraid. I am afraid I will not have my kids. Afraid I won't be able to afford a place to fit the 4 of us under the mountain of debt we have collected AND the cost of a highly contentious divorce. How do people do this?


----------



## john1068

thebadguy said:


> No var in the car.
> 
> I am reading what you wrote as 'hard to imagine she hasn't'. I have told her the friendship is not compatible with us being married. I have asked her what they have done. She has refused to answer...maybe that is revenge and there is no substance. Maybe it is her trying to preserve her self image by not telling a lie (just refusing to tell the truth).


It matters not if something did happen or if she's playing a sick game staying silent on the question. There's no place for either in a healthy marriage. 

The reality is, she's extremely angry, passive aggressive with you. Doesn't appear to want to get fully reconcile. You WILL survive a divorce. What to do with the debt? That's what bankruptcy is for. You can't live this way. Neither can she or especially the kids.


----------



## soccermom2three

Gosh, I hate your user name, I don't even want to type it out, so I won't. 

I don't have any advice for you but I just wanted to tell you that I'm so sorry you are going through this. Your wife sounds mentally ill. Are you recording these interactions?


----------



## thebadguy

I have some recordings but not of last night, no.


----------



## tom67

john1068 said:


> It matters not if something did happen or if she's playing a sick game staying silent on the question. There's no place for either in a healthy marriage.
> 
> The reality is, she's extremely angry, passive aggressive with you. Doesn't appear to want to get fully reconcile. You WILL survive a divorce. What to do with the debt? That's what bankruptcy is for. You can't live this way. Neither can she or especially the kids.


:iagree:
I hope you are always carrying a voice activated recorder with you also.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

The fact you can't see, or anyone blaming you, the crap you are teaching your child is extremely sad. He reacts with physical violence at six? Are you kidding me? You two are creating a bully and a possible future abuser. If you can't act like an adult for yourself, be one for your child.

I have to unsubscribe. You are abused and I don't care what you did in the past. It is completely uncalled for, but you choose to take it as some sort of self deprecating punishment.



> She starts hitting me telling me i knocked him down. I have bruises today on my shoulder, elbow and back from it.


There is NOTHING passive aggressive about her actions. It's like being a cheater makes posters afraid to use the word "abuse" or "abusive" against the betrayed.

I am shocked and disgusted.


----------



## turnera

I sure hope you are going to the police station today so they get pictures of the bruises. PLEASE do this. You have no idea how bad this is going to get, and you are going to lose all rights to your kids because you didn't want to upset her by reporting her abuse.


----------



## tom67

turnera said:


> I sure hope you are going to the police station today so they get pictures of the bruises. PLEASE do this. You have no idea how bad this is going to get, and you are going to lose all rights to your kids because you didn't want to upset her by reporting her abuse.


If she gets a false DV charge on you and you don't report this you will be screwed for sure.
Time for action.


----------



## happyman64

badguy

Your wife needs a good shrink. She needs to do this because she is imploding.

You can divorce your wife because of infidelity.

But she did not divorce you over it. And it sounds like she is still tormented from it.

So instead of being so fearful take a stand.

Tell her she has two choices.

Professional counseling or a Divorce lawyer.

It sounds like you still care for her. If you do then try that approach.

If all love is lost then your only option is a divorce.

I think it is time for you to really be the badguy that does a good, positive thing.

At least you can say you tried.

HM


----------



## As'laDain

go get the abuse documented. file for divorce.

you keep letting your wife be an abusive idiot with no consequences and one day she will end up hurting you or your kids in a way you wont recover from.

your wife was trying to drive drunk with YOUR kids. she physically abused you and blamed you for it. 

stop watching your family implode and do something about it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

happyman64 said:


> If all love is lost then your only option is a divorce.


Abuse is an IMMEDIATE divorce option whether all love is lost or not. He's taken mental and physical beatings for his cheating, it is long past time to stop. He can ask her to do everything you suggested once he is safe.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Abuse is an IMMEDIATE divorce option whether all love is lost or not. He's taken mental and physical beatings for his cheating, it is long past time to stop. He can ask her to do everything you suggested once he is safe.


TBG if you don't do anything this will get worse and instead of just hitting you she will have a knife.
Please stop this.


----------



## happyman64

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Abuse is an IMMEDIATE divorce option whether all love is lost or not. He's taken mental and physical beatings for his cheating, it is long past time to stop. He can ask her to do everything you suggested once he is safe.


Isn't that a shame. I am not worried about his safety.

I am worried about his kids safety and then his wife's safety.

By ensuring they are safe he will ensure he is safe.

But no matter what she is spiraling out of control. Her behavior and actions show that.

Action needs to be taken for the safety of all. Getting evidence for a divorce is secondary if the kids are in danger......


----------



## MSP

What a mess. Your wife is an entitled psycho who has treated you without respect from day one, even before your affair. You asked a little while back how to stop being a doormat and here is the answer: make your own decisions without needing to consult her.

I'm sorry, man. This whole situation sucks.


----------



## itom72

happyman64 said:


> I am not worried about his safety.


How in the world can you not be worried about HIS safety? She's out of control, and you think he's in the clear?

Worry about the kids' safety, to be sure. But he's also in the line of fire, make no mistake about that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

happyman64 said:


> Action needs to be taken for the safety of all. Getting evidence for a divorce is secondary if the kids are in danger......


Please, don't create straw man arguments from my words. I said NOTHING about gathering evidence. I said get a divorce now and get out. He can do what you ask AFTER he is safe. Kid first, himself and then her. If he isn't right, which is OBVIOUS, he can't help his kid or her.

His kid is kicking him while screaming "I love you" to his wife. Then he takes a beating because she feels he pushed him down. 

We will disagree.


----------



## warlock07

> My 6 yo son started kicking me. It is his defense mechanism. My wife starts yelling, he starts telling her he loves her and if I am around he starts kicking or hitting me.


This part is f*cked up. Go visit a child psychologist immediately. This is not normal behavior. The child mental state is being affected


----------



## Thorburn

thebadguy said:


> Had a really bad night last night. Has been brewing for the past week. It is the week of d-day, actually...that was Monday. 4 years.
> 
> My stepdaughter told my wife last night that she was still seeing a boy that my wife had 'forbidden' her to see. She's 15. The boy is friends with another boy who hit his girlfriend. I agree he isn't company she should keep. Her dad allows her to go out with him when she is over there. It is a mess. That somewhat triggered my wife. I came home to her having had 2 glasses of wine and looking for someone to unload on. She started unloading on me. My 6 yo son started kicking me. It is his defense mechanism. My wife starts yelling, he starts telling her he loves her and if I am around he starts kicking or hitting me. He came to kick me at one point (in socks this whole time) and slipped on the wood floor. He fell on his butt. She erupted. He started crying. She starts hitting me telling me i knocked him down. I have bruises today on my shoulder, elbow and back from it.
> She goes to take the 15 yo to a sports practice and starts herding the boys to go with her. I tell her she isn't driving the kids anywhere because she is intoxicated. All this time she is yelling at me and I can smell the wine. She hasn't taken a drink in an hour but I can smell the wine. So I end up taking the 15 yo to her practice but she refuses to let me take the boys (I know I should have...I also know it would have escalated the situation further).
> 
> I came home to relative quiet. It stayed that way until 5am when she woke me up to talk (I don't normally wake until 6). Every time she starts yelling in front of the kids, I tell her I am happy to talk, but she needs to stop putting them in the conversation. So...she found a time. Compared to last night, this morning was a calm conversation, but at one point, she went to the kitchen, got a bag of flour, took a handful and tossed it into her own face as an illustration of how she hurts still. She also slapped herself a few times on the chest and detailed how she wishes sometimes that she could push her fingernail through the veins in her wrist and end the torment.
> 
> In the midst of this, I have no idea what is going on with her affair. She has changed the password for the carrier's website and changed the password to her phone.
> 
> I don't think I can take anymore or let anymore happen around my kids. And I am afraid. I am afraid I will not have my kids. Afraid I won't be able to afford a place to fit the 4 of us under the mountain of debt we have collected AND the cost of a highly contentious divorce. How do people do this?




You have a freaken VAR on you at all times, have a back up. You set up "Nanny Cams" in your house and record this crap.

If you lose your kids it will be your own fault. You are not taken the action to secure winning your kids in court. If these actions are not recorded you are going to lose in the end.

Your wife is a nutcase and if you don't take action to record this stuff visually and with audio it can quickly turn on you. If your son says you pushed him and he fell down and your wife says the same, who will the court believe?

Buddy, you better wake up fast and be smart about it. Your wife's affair is not the main issue, your kids safety is.


----------



## LongWalk

Your wife needs to see a psychiatrist.

Don't worry about the cheating. She cheated but the mental health problem is the priority now.


----------



## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> This part is f*cked up. Go visit a child psychologist immediately. This is not normal behavior. The child mental state is being affected


Actually it is fairly normal. This 6 year old is mimicking his mother and defending her (right or wrong). The 6 year old is not understanding the arguments. And most 6 year olds will defend their mother when they percieved they are being "attacked".

The "F*cked up" part is the OP not taking action to record this stuff and turning it over to the police and the DA. 

The 6 year old will tell the police what his mother says. "Dad, pushed me and hurt me". A video recording would have told another story "the truth".


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

I'm lost for words. Truly lost for words. 

I've just spent the morning reading all of TBG''s threads.

Here is a father that is so completely emotionally tied to an abusive, deranged and psychotic woman for 4 long and terrible years; is so completely in her thrall that he has stated he is prepared to WILLINGLY "go down with the sinking ship" and thereby take his kids all the way down there too.

I find it disturbing in the extreme and in my line of work I thought I had seen and heard it all.

TBG. That you and your "wife" are happy to sink together I could care less about to be honest. 

But that you and her are destroying the lives of innocent children in this horrendous and despicable way, horrifies and disgusts me.

It's like watching a malevolent, macabre dance of death that I am not quite able to avert my from eyes from.

God, please help and love those children. Their parents are utterly and completely failing them.


----------



## tom67

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm lost for words. Truly lost for words.
> 
> I've just spent the morning reading all of TBG''s threads.
> 
> Here is a father that is so completely emotionally tied to an abusive, deranged and psychotic woman for 4 long and terrible years; is so completely in her thrall that he has stated he is prepared to WILLINGLY "go down with the sinking ship" and thereby take his kids all the way down there too.
> 
> I find it disturbing in the extreme and in my line of work I thought I had seen and heard it all.
> 
> TBG. That you and your "wife" are happy to sink together I could care less about to be honest.
> 
> But that you and her are destroying the lives of innocent children in this horrendous and despicable way, horrifies and disgusts me.
> 
> It's like watching a malevolent, macabre dance of death that I am not quite able to avert my from eyes from.
> 
> God, please help and love those children. Their parents are utterly and completely failing them.


You are so spot on you made me cry for a moment.
The only place where he gets SOME of the blame is not stepping up not for him but for the kid.
VERY SAD


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

That he is her enabler, makes him equally responsible in my eyes.

Not for her behaviour no, but for the destruction of their children, they are equally responsible for that.

He could have made a loving, caring home for them away from that house of horrors, for a minimum 50% of the time, where they could have some respite from the dangerous craziness of their mother.

But no he CHOOSES to go down with ship and take them down there too.

CHOICE! He has made it! 

Not partly responsible, FULLY, in my eyes.

Disgusting and reprehensible.


----------



## tom67

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> That he is her enabler, makes him equally responsible in my eyes.
> 
> Not for her behaviour no, but for the destruction of their children, they are equally responsible for that.
> 
> He could have made a loving, caring home for them away from that house of horrors, for a minimum 50% of the time, where they could have some respite from the dangerous craziness of their mother.
> 
> But no he CHOOSES to go down with ship and take them down there too.
> 
> CHOICE! He has made it!
> 
> Not partly responsible, FULLY, in my eyes.
> 
> Disgusting and reprehensible.


I replied in his earlier threads to take action.
I assume like you I'm done here if you want advice and don't listen...You, me, and anyone else I am done here.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Tom, you are right.

Pointless. Like pi*sing into the wind.
It would be sad if it weren't so tragic for those innocent children.

I've said my piece. 

They are both morally bankrupt and there is nothing left to work with.


----------



## tom67

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Tom, you are right.
> 
> Pointless. Like pi*sing into the wind.
> It would be sad if it weren't so tragic for those innocent children.
> 
> I've said my piece.
> 
> They are both morally bankrupt and there is nothing left to work with.


If you are trying to help yourself I'll do anything for you but this?
:banghead::banghead::banghead:
He needs help that's all I'll say goodbye.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

tom67 said:


> If you are trying to help yourself I'll do anything for you but this?
> :banghead::banghead::banghead:
> He needs help that's all I'll say goodbye.


You've lost me on that one. Sorry.


----------



## tom67

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> You've lost me on that one. Sorry.


I'm saying his inaction over all this time.
I'm done with enabling.
He has had great advice here and has not acted on it.


----------



## As'laDain

tom67 said:


> I'm saying his inaction over all this time.
> I'm done with enabling.
> He has had great advice here and has not acted on it.


:iagree:


----------



## turnera

TBG, seeing all this written down, does it give you maybe a renewed sense of purpose, to make a change?


----------



## thebadguy

I have let this go too long. No question. I have been willing to sacrifice myself but have been unintentionally sacrificing my kids at the same time, thinking I was taking the brunt of it. Incidents like Wednesday happen 2-3 times a year. There is enough time in between big events that it is easy to slide back into thinking things will get better with time. There was a time when I was much more dedicated to the notion of making it work....to 'go down with the ship' but I am not in that place anymore. This is the 5th or 6th time, I think, that she has left bruises on me. I am ready to call it a lost cause.

So I need to make an orderly exit. I don't think I can inform her of my decision until I have filed. I think it would give her an opportunity to do something drastic.

I have been stuck on how to force split custody as the temporary circumstance while divorce happens. Temporary order, yes...how quickly can that be put in place? What insanity happens in between her finding out about that and there being something in force? Anything other than a legally binding agreement is going to result in her attempting to abscond with my kids.

She is willing to put them through a tug of war and with her emotional victim appearance, my kids would, at this point, choose to do what they think will keep her from turning on them. How do you combat that? 

I am not deluding myself. I know this will be the battle of my lifetime. And she already has an advantage with regard to custody. She only works part time as an insurance agent and is with the kids the rest of the time. Obviously that can't continue as is if she is to start working full time but how does that translate for custody? I have no doubt a judge will give me more than she will but it is the interim crazy time I am worried about. How to mitigate (no response that says 'work with her' is going to work)?

Several people said to go to the police and file a report. Does she have to know a report was filed?

And I don't know what else...


----------



## As'laDain

get a VAR. keep it on you. file a report every time she abuses you. 

a buddy of mine ran from his house to our battalion staff duty one day... barefoot. he had a black eye lots of bruises. 

when the staff duty officer escorted him to his home, his wife tried calling the cops on him and accusing him of abuse, all because he said he was leaving. 

well, long story short, she was found unfit to parent and my buddy was awarded full custody. she was abusive and manipulative. if it werent for the fact that he had someone to vouch for him, it might not have turned out that way. 

record your interactions. file reports. protect yourself and build a case against her in case she tries to go for the jugular or take the kids away.


----------



## turnera

thebadguy said:


> She is willing to put them through a tug of war and with her emotional victim appearance, my kids would, at this point, choose to do what they think will keep her from turning on them. How do you combat that?


By doing what we said and going to the police station and filing a report and getting pictures of the bruises.


----------



## thebadguy

turnera said:


> By doing what we said and going to the police station and filing a report and getting pictures of the bruises.


I have taken pictures and shown people I trust the bruises and explained how it came about, much as I did here. Does anyone know the answer to the question of whether the police need to contact her if I file a report?


----------



## Acabado

Your youngest is starting to mimic her, sure enough he doesn't kicke her when frunstrated. He kicks you. Why?

Kids threapy, in touch with school counselors, documentation, taping everything. Start telling people. What about your ILs?

Go to that BPD website, familiarice, talk with poeple who had to divorce abusive BPDrs.

Dads friendly lawyer

....start planning.


----------



## turnera

Just pick up the phone and ask the police that question.


----------



## bryanp

Why have you not informed the OM's wife?

If you do not respect yourself then who will?


----------



## Uptown

thebadguy said:


> So I need to make an orderly exit. I don't think I can inform her of my decision until I have filed. I think it would give her an opportunity to do something drastic.


BG, divorcing a BPDer gets nasty really quick. You therefore are wise to make all preparations before ever telling her, if she's a BPDer as your therapist believes. As I recommended last December, there are two things you can do that will help you deal with her vindictiveness. One is to read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. _The other is to participate (or at least lurk) at the "Parenting after the Split" forum at BPDfamily.


----------



## Acabado

Follow Uptown's advice please.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

thebadguy said:


> I have taken pictures and shown people I trust the bruises and explained how it came about, much as I did here. Does anyone know the answer to the question of whether the police need to contact her if I file a report?


Most likely because most Departments have a legal requirement to investigate domestic violence. More so when children are involved. So, she'll be contacted by them or CPS one way or another.
Do not let that deter you , but follow uptown's advice.


----------



## Chaparral

Also, check out dadsdivorce.com. It is a father friendly website.


----------



## thebadguy

I have been a member at bpdfamily for more than a year and dadsdivorce since last fall. I haven't checked out the parenting after splitting section of bpdfamily but I will. I think I have largely lived it with my stepdaughter.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

I don't know the answer but it strikes me as a question worth exploring: is immediate divorce the right thing to do in this situation? Shouldn't the immediate thing be to pull out all stops to get the wife some counseling and help? Even if the marriage is beyond repair, she has some serious demons that ought to be dealt with before exacerbating her problems with divorce and putting the kids in her sole, troubled custody at least half the time (because you know that's what's likely to happen in the divorce).


----------



## thebadguy

ScrewedEverything said:


> I don't know the answer but it strikes me as a question worth exploring: is immediate divorce the right thing to do in this situation? Shouldn't the immediate thing be to pull out all stops to get the wife some counseling and help? Even if the marriage is beyond repair, she has some serious demons that ought to be dealt with before exacerbating her problems with divorce and putting the kids in her sole, troubled custody at least half the time (because you know that's what's likely to happen in the divorce).


We have seen 2 counselors together. One recommended antidepressants for her. The other recommended a different counselor who could help her with abandonment issues. Later explained to me that this was for BPD (of which abandonment is only part of the story). She refused both and stopped going with me to each after they recommended help for HER. She has refused counseling in all forms since, even though I have asked her to go...with me...without me, repeatedly. Her repeated statement on the subject is that I am the one who needs fixing, not her.

She sees nothing wrong with the fact that she physically attacks me, hurts herself, and 'would welcome death'.

The only way she is going to a counselor is if it is court ordered. And then my expectation is it will go nowhere.


----------



## vi_bride04

So why do you want to stay in such a depressing, abusive, un-repairable marriage? 

As long as your wife is taking the stance that she is. It is UNREPARIABLE.


----------



## turnera

thebadguy said:


> She sees nothing wrong with the fact that she physically attacks me, hurts herself, and 'would welcome death'.
> 
> The only way she is going to a counselor is if it is court ordered. And then my expectation is it will go nowhere.


Why would you _stay _with such a person who cares SO LITTLE for you that she won't consider making herself the best partner available?


----------



## tom67

thebadguy said:


> We have seen 2 counselors together. One recommended antidepressants for her. The other recommended a different counselor who could help her with abandonment issues. Later explained to me that this was for BPD (of which abandonment is only part of the story). She refused both and stopped going with me to each after they recommended help for HER. She has refused counseling in all forms since, even though I have asked her to go...with me...without me, repeatedly. Her repeated statement on the subject is that I am the one who needs fixing, not her.
> 
> She sees nothing wrong with the fact that she physically attacks me, hurts herself, and 'would welcome death'.
> 
> The only way she is going to a counselor is if it is court ordered. And then my expectation is it will go nowhere.


You tried.
Document and get out for the safety of you and the kids before they are as screwed up as her.
Please.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ScrewedEverything said:


> I don't know the answer but it strikes me as a question worth exploring: is immediate divorce the right thing to do in this situation? Shouldn't the immediate thing be to pull out all stops to get the wife some counseling and help? Even if the marriage is beyond repair, she has some serious demons that ought to be dealt with before exacerbating her problems with divorce and putting the kids in her sole, troubled custody at least half the time (because you know that's what's likely to happen in the divorce).


Immediate divorce? This has been going on for four years and she refuses to get any counseling. It is hard to make someone do something they don't want. Usually, when you do, bad things happen. He is now getting abused, there is nothing immediate about this situation. The kid is kicking him already, so him being there isn't helping anything at all.



> She sees nothing wrong with the fact that she physically attacks me, hurts herself, and 'would welcome death'.
> 
> The only way she is going to a counselor is if it is court ordered. And then my expectation is it will go nowhere.


WTH? You sure are trickling things out. Dude you need to get this taken care of now, I don't want read about you guys in the newspaper.


----------



## tom67

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Immediate divorce? This has been going on for four years and she refuses to get any counseling. It is hard to make someone do something they don't want. Usually, when you do, bad things happen. He is now getting abused, there is nothing immediate about this situation. The kid is kicking him already, so him being there isn't helping anything at all.
> 
> WTH? You sure are trickling things out. Dude you need to get this taken care of now, I don't want read about you guys in the newspaper.


When someone leaves a possible mental/drinking disorder left untreated, it only gets worse.
You have seen this I know.
Do something.


----------



## thebadguy

I wanted to update this thread. Hopefully anybody who reads the last few pages of this thread will read this post before they reply to things that were written back in April. 

I don't need help with whether and how to record stuff. 
I don't need help as to whether to file a police report or not. 
I have exactly zero questions about whether she had her own affair or not. 

I just wanted to say she gave a confession yesterday. I was not at all surprised by the content. I was annoyed by the hostility she had about it. She admitted to having given her 'buddy' a bj half a dozen times and to having been fondled in return. Whether it was 5 times or 50, doesn't matter to me. Whether it was intercourse and this was her way of minimizing, doesn't matter to me. I put together a mental picture of the event and I find both sides of it...her and the OM...pathetic. She said it was very Julia Roberts / Pretty Woman...no kissing. As if I would be relieved that she hadn't touched lips with the dude before or after he presumably orgasmed into her mouth.


----------



## happyman64

So what are your next steps BadGuy?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What do you want?


----------



## thebadguy

I want my kids, my house, and enough of my own income to pay for the stuff that matters.


----------



## happyman64

thebadguy said:


> I want my kids, my house, and enough of my own income to pay for the stuff that matters.


Perfect plan. And a simple one.


----------



## tom67

So does his wife know?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

thebadguy said:


> I want my kids, my house, and enough of my own income to pay for the stuff that matters.


How are you going to do that?


----------



## thebadguy

Awesome question since there is a huge pile of debt, she still only works parttime, makes little money and is a bully of a woman.


----------



## thebadguy

tom67 said:


> So does his wife know?


Yeah...no. 

Well...I would bet dollars to donuts that she knows I had an affair.


----------



## tom67

thebadguy said:


> Yeah...no.
> 
> Well...I would bet dollars to donuts that she knows I had an affair.


Well then it sounds like a good time to let her know then.


----------



## manfromlamancha

What made her confess?


----------



## warlock07

How long was she cheating on you?


----------



## Dyokemm

badguy,

Let POSOM's BW know about the A.

You are probably right that your BW/WW has let her know all about your A....but I doubt she would be amused to discover that your WW thought that made it OK to have sex with her POS WH.

And your WW is seriously messed up for inflicting on another W the pain she was going through with you.

OM?.....he's just a total POS....he knows your W and undoubtedly how much she was hurt by your A....but he didn't hesitate to inflict the same pain on his own BW.

What a fu*king loser.


----------



## lenzi

thebadguy said:


> I want my kids, my house, and enough of my own income to pay for the stuff that matters.


Ok, now that you know what you want, the next step is to figure out what you're legally entitled to.

You may find that your wants are somewhat unrealistic.

You may find that the courts don't care about infidelity, they tend to only look at the hard numbers. If you're the breadwinner, and she's the stay at home primary caregiver to young children, then you could very well find yourself with no home and visitation with your children and a good chunk of your post tax dollars going for child and spousal support.


----------



## Uptown

thebadguy said:


> I just wanted to say she gave a confession yesterday.


BG, congratulations on obtaining her confession and on holding firm for a divorce. Thanks for returning to give us an update. As we discussed in Dec 2012, a helpful book is _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, the divorce process will get nasty very quickly -- particularly since children are involved. I still wish you the best!


----------



## Roller

thebadguy said:


> The pain of leaving is to be a part time dad.
> 
> I don't have my head straight on this issue. I want to be their champion. I am not clear what that looks like in this crazy house.
> 
> If we divorce, they have to deal with her without me and she will push them to refuse to spend time with me...like she does with her daughter from her first marriage with her father. Probably harder.
> 
> If we stay together, I am showing them how to tolerate anything. all the while being portrayed as the bad guy by her to them even though I know they see the contradiction between her words and my behavior.


Our situations are so similar it's unbelievable. 

You are unable to allow yourself to be selfish enough (even though in reality it's not in anyway selfish) to put yourself first. 

For reasons that are totally in-explainable even to yourself, you act as a martyr, taking the daily pain and abuse because something in you is telling you that A. it is good for you and/or B. you deserve it. 

You justify this in-explain-ability to yourself by saying you are doing what is right for the children and/or her, BUT, if you're absolutely honest, you're not sure if it is the right thing for the children. Therefore you are doing it (taking it) for HER and to keep the status-quo because it appears less scary/risky/painful than leaving.

I'm not judging you - I AM YOU! I'm a codependent submissive living with a Narcissistic, abusive wife.

In my case anyway, it boils down to this. You are not looking for "ironclad proof" you are looking for "ironclad proof of a PHYSICAL affair/act" and if she witnesses you getting that proof (i.e. you walk in on her *with* him and it becomes instantly undeniable) all the better. I asked "is it cheating" you asked for "ironclad proof", if we were both honest we know it's cheating - if you consider an EA cheating - but we aren't comfortable/confident enough to feel we deserve our wife's "exclusivity" when it comes to emotion. We are old fashioned enough to expect "exclusivity" of the physical elements.

I don't have the answers. I know, 95% that I want a D, I'm almost able to justify that "selfishness" to myself, but I cannot get to 100% and even if I did, I don't think that I have the ba!ls to tell her!!

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, because I cannot really give you any advice, I can however assure you that you are not alone and that I (among others here at TAM) genuinely care for you and your mental health. 

STAY STRONG FOR YOU AND YOUR KIDS. If nothing else, you being strong will wind her up!!

One day at a time pal.


----------



## Roller

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm lost for words. Truly lost for words.
> 
> I've just spent the morning reading all of TBG''s threads.
> 
> Here is a father that is so completely emotionally tied to an abusive, deranged and psychotic woman for 4 long and terrible years; is so completely in her thrall that he has stated he is prepared to WILLINGLY "go down with the sinking ship" and thereby take his kids all the way down there too.
> 
> I find it disturbing in the extreme and in my line of work I thought I had seen and heard it all.
> 
> TBG. That you and your "wife" are happy to sink together I could care less about to be honest.
> 
> But that you and her are destroying the lives of innocent children in this horrendous and despicable way, horrifies and disgusts me.
> 
> It's like watching a malevolent, macabre dance of death that I am not quite able to avert my from eyes from.
> 
> God, please help and love those children. Their parents are utterly and completely failing them.


I'm not sure what your "line of work" is, but I cannot agree with you. It's terrible for the children, it's awful, it's unacceptable BUT I cannot agree with the use of the word "despicable". 

TBG is suffering massive emotional abuse (like me, the physical abuse is probably water off a duck's back). He is mentally unable to help or protect himself, so trying to shame him into protecting the children with words such as "despicable" is, IMO inappropriate. 

Personally I feel that people who selfishly fail their children are despicable. TBG is whatever the opposite of selfish is! Ironically he needs to value himself sufficiently to actually act in a selfish way.

The guy loves his children and, as he probably sees it, is taking the abuse to protect them from that same abuse. Certainly it's how I see "me".


----------



## tom67

Roller great post and keep contributing.
Once you realize you have a problem that is half the battle.


----------



## Roller

Thanks, just wish I'd managed to not "hit" the "reply" button until I read the last page!!

That'll teach me.

TBG - I need to get to where you are, desperately and I don't want to hijack a thread, but knowing what made her confess would be good.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Guys, though I would not use the same language as Betrayed, something does have to be understood. 

When abuse is not stood up to after awareness that it is abuse, you become complicit in it. The longer you don't stand up having knowledge now, the more complicit you become. I learned that about my own situation. Once I understood that it was abuse that if going forward I STILL subjected myself to it or my child then it would be my fault for not protecting myself or my child. That subjecting myself and my child to abuse AFTER knowing it IS abuse makes me complicit in it. So, there was no option... in both situations, it was stay different or leave. Allowing abuse to continue was not an option for me once I realized this because I REFUSE to be complicit in abuse.


----------



## tom67

Blossom Leigh said:


> Guys, though I would not use the same language as Betrayed, something does have to be understood.
> 
> When abuse is not stood up to after awareness that it is abuse, you become complicit in it. The longer you don't stand up having knowledge now, the more complicit you become. I learned that about my own situation. Once I understood that it was abuse that if going forward I STILL subjected myself to it or my child then it would be my fault for not protecting myself or my child. That subjecting myself and my child to abuse AFTER knowing it IS abuse makes me complicit in it. So, there was no option... in both situations, it was stay different or leave. Allowing abuse to continue was not an option for me once I realized this because I REFUSE to be complicit in abuse.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
And then it's passed to the kids= learned behavior.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> And then it's passed to the kids= learned behavior.


Yep, its up to you guys who are aware to break the cycle.

That is my life now... breaking that cycle.

Wholly devoted to it.


----------



## tom67

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yep, its up to you guys who are aware to break the cycle.
> 
> That is my life now... breaking that cycle.
> 
> Wholly devoted to it.


Blossom you are breaking it I just meant in general what usually happens.
Perfect example is the half back Adrian Peterson he said that's what his father did.
He pleaded no contest and got no jail time.
Adrian Peterson of Minnesota Vikings to enter plea to lesser charge than felony child abuse charge, avoid jail time - ESPN


----------



## Blossom Leigh

tom67 said:


> Blossom you are breaking it I just meant in general what usually happens.
> Perfect example is the half back Adrian Peterson he said that's what his father did.
> He pleaded no contest and got no jail time.
> Adrian Peterson of Minnesota Vikings to enter plea to lesser charge than felony child abuse charge, avoid jail time - ESPN



I was tracking your intent


----------



## thebadguy

how to elicit a confession...

This is definitely not a How To book.

I had read a lot of her text messages a year ago. Calculated how many texts were going between her and the OM from carrier records. Blurted out that I knew it was an affair and I was pissed about it. Where I didn't have ironclad proof, I had innuendo (spell check wanted to change that to Nintendo, btw) and one or two messages that were clear enough that I had no doubt there was something afoot.

Where I could not keep my mouth shut about the fact that I had been snooping, I had managed to suggest I knew what had gone on. After a few months, she confessed to there being "affection" between them. After another month of me saying I knew enough and wanted her to admit to what she did, she broke down. Not like...crying. Her attitude was more like, "I am tired of you using it as an excuse as to why you don't have to try to make anything better for me." No real apology. She feels her self-loathing should be enough and is immediately back to "you are going to have to make things right by me before I can even consider making things right by you". She answered most of my questions. What, how many times, over what period of time, where. And then, whether there was more to know or not, I told her I had no more questions right now.

The only effective things I did were to make her think I knew a little more than I did and ignore her. I know that doesn't help much. Someone who wants to hide it, is not going to be swayed by what I did.


----------



## thebadguy

And today, she is back to herself. My 7 year old has a school run today. She volunteered to help with it. He asked if I would come (too...not in place of). I told her I was going to come. She said she didn't want me to because it "would diminish her". I gave an analogy as to why it would not diminish her and she threw an absolute cursing, crying tantrum because she wanted it to herself. Then...I tried to say 'fine. i will stay at work' and she told me I had already ruined it for her and to go. 

She still views all of this as her being hurt by me. She thinks I am the emotional abuser. She has said it enough that I get twisted in my own head as to what is real and what is fiction.

You can call me deluded but I am still trying to figure out what is abuse and what is normal or at least realistic reaction to my own affair from almost 5 years ago.

I am not trying to be complicit to abuse. I definitely don't want to be.


----------



## turnera

You're kidding right? To show up at a kid's event is abuse? That's just absurd. Your W is acting like a 5 year old. That's HER problem, not yours.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

thebadguy said:


> And today, she is back to herself. My 7 year old has a school run today. She volunteered to help with it. He asked if I would come (too...not in place of). I told her I was going to come. She said she didn't want me to because it "would diminish her". I gave an analogy as to why it would not diminish her and she threw an absolute cursing, crying tantrum because she wanted it to herself. Then...I tried to say 'fine. i will stay at work' and she told me I had already ruined it for her and to go.
> 
> She still views all of this as her being hurt by me. She thinks I am the emotional abuser. She has said it enough that I get twisted in my own head as to what is real and what is fiction.
> 
> You can call me deluded but I am still trying to figure out what is abuse and what is normal or at least realistic reaction to my own affair from almost 5 years ago.
> 
> I am not trying to be complicit to abuse. I definitely don't want to be.


I hear you. It sounds like you are not fully awake on it yet. There are excellent resources to help get you there. If you want them let me know and I can put a list together.

In the mean time, I have one question....

What was the analogy?


----------



## thebadguy

Blossom Leigh said:


> I hear you. It sounds like you are not fully awake on it yet. There are excellent resources to help get you there. If you want them let me know and I can put a list together.
> 
> In the mean time, I have one question....
> 
> What was the analogy?


My anaology: 

If I were coaching a kid's game (which I do) I would not have a problem with her coming to cheer on the kids.

Her analogy:

If I were volunteering to help in the classroom (which I did Monday) wouldn't I find it bizarre if she just showed up to volunteer too?

I told her...I'm not showing up to volunteer. I'm just showing up to cheer on our son. The flier says parents are welcome. Alternately, the teacher keeps a calendar for when a parent is to volunteer in the classroom. Monday was my scheduled day. Yes, it would have been weird if she showed up but if the teacher was ok with it, I wouldn't object.


----------



## Roller

Thank you so very much for that update. I don't think you or anyone else could write a how-to-guide on getting an abuser to confess/admit to anything, but it does help to know what worked (at least in some part) for you.

Oddly, I've tried pretty much the same in the past. Almost exactly a year ago (my sh!t's been going on for 5-8 years!) I heard a rumor about her an the latest OM. I just played the "do you want to tell me anything card" every-so-often, I gave her 3 chances to tell me, once when I was dropping her off for a night out (as it happened right outside the same bar that I'd heard about her and the OM). She didn't take any of those opportunities - just answering with a typical "about what? What is there to tell? You obviously want me to tell you about something that someone's said, but I don't know what anyone's told you. Anyway, there's nothing to tell"!!

Over the past week (since I saw more evidence of her drunk calling the same OM as above - painfully when I was under the impression that things were getting a lot better between us), I've been really trying to be cold, quiet and detached - the bits of the 180 that I can manage - I'm useless at looking happy and content, and if/when the opportunity arises I'll be giving the impression that I know what's going on. Let's hope I get a similar result to you and get some sort of recognition of her actions.

I'm not expert, but I'd say that at the very least your (ex) wife is at least Narcissistic if not bi-polar. There are a lot more qualified/experienced people than me on here to confirm or deny.

Stop beating yourself up about what you did. By any standard, you've served your time and taken your punishment, and let's be absolutely honest here. Chances are you could justifiably blame your wife for you seeking the emotional attachment and/or comfort/reassurances of another. I'm not saying you should - you've done the correct thing (in my opinion) by taking responsibility and as someone else put it "owning" that EA. HOWEVER, I have no doubt that your wife (if the roles were reversed) would never have "owned" it or taken any level of responsibility, LET ALONE take the 4 years and more of punishment for it. She would have put it all on you and justified it as such.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

thebadguy said:


> My anaology:
> 
> If I were coaching a kid's game (which I do) I would not have a problem with her coming to cheer on the kids.
> 
> Her analogy:
> 
> If I were volunteering to help in the classroom (which I did Monday) wouldn't I find it bizarre if she just showed up to volunteer too?
> 
> I told her...I'm not showing up to volunteer. I'm just showing up to cheer on our son. The flier says parents are welcome. Alternately, the teacher keeps a calendar for when a parent is to volunteer in the classroom. Monday was my scheduled day. Yes, it would have been weird if she showed up but if the teacher was ok with it, I wouldn't object.


Ok so how is it that she feels you would "diminish her?"


----------



## thebadguy

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ok so how is it that she feels you would "diminish her?"


By being there. By 'taking over' (I don't think I do this). By making her 'look at my face'. 

Its been a rough week. When it comes down to it, she wanted something to herself. 

I have a hard time giving up parenting opportunities, let alone when she confessed to a sexual affair a day or two ago. 

And as I sit here typing she texted to ask if I was going to the turkey trot. I replied that "you told me to go. I was planning on going." That elicited a call. I said hello. She said nothing. I said hello. She said hello. I asked what's up? She said "what do you mean what's up?" It wasn't a calm "I would like this to myself" sort of call. It was a crying attempt at guilt, pity, obligation and i don't know what else. I truly do not understand why it is even an issue. The one part I do understand...she is envious that I leave work twice in a week to support our kid while she thinks I never do so for her. Ironically, I met her for lunch on a moment's notice the day she confessed and yesterday....with all of this...I came out to her office to do IT support for her and her boss (which I made sure she knew was not something I wanted her boss to pay for). So...twice this week I have missed work time at a moments notice for her. She says neither of those count, since the lunch thing turned into a fight and I was looking at the other as a 'possible business transaction'.


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## turnera

Not your problem.


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## 10th Engineer Harrison

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

-10th Engineer Harrison.


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## Blossom Leigh

thebadguy said:


> By being there. By 'taking over' (I don't think I do this). By making her 'look at my face'.
> 
> Its been a rough week. When it comes down to it, she wanted something to herself.
> 
> I have a hard time giving up parenting opportunities, let alone when she confessed to a sexual affair a day or two ago.
> 
> And as I sit here typing she texted to ask if I was going to the turkey trot. I replied that "you told me to go. I was planning on going." That elicited a call. I said hello. She said nothing. I said hello. She said hello. I asked what's up? She said "what do you mean what's up?" It wasn't a calm "I would like this to myself" sort of call. It was a crying attempt at guilt, pity, obligation and i don't know what else. I truly do not understand why it is even an issue. The one part I do understand...she is envious that I leave work twice in a week to support our kid while she thinks I never do so for her. Ironically, I met her for lunch on a moment's notice the day she confessed and yesterday....with all of this...I came out to her office to do IT support for her and her boss (which I made sure she knew was not something I wanted her boss to pay for). So...twice this week I have missed work time at a moments notice for her. She says neither of those count, since the lunch thing turned into a fight and I was looking at the other as a 'possible business transaction'.



Oh man... you have got your hands full...


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## Blossom Leigh

If you are not leaving right away, my best advice is two things for now...

The book Emotional Blackmail and the website Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support

These two will help you put some definitions around what you are seeing so that you can at least gain some footing until you decide what you are going to do with this relationship.

You have to gain knowledge to the point of recognizing gaslighting, blameshifting, emotional blackmail F.O.G.(fear, obligation, guilt), etc.

This is how I started to break free while hanging onto my sanity.

Also the book Boundaries by Townsend.

ETA: OH! and the website www.abandonment.net will help you understand the "why" behind her emotional blackmail.


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## Forest

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but she sounds like a jealous, selfish, controlling, nutcase. Someone you can't hope to deal with in a logical fashion.

Either get some professional help with dealing with her, or slowly stop dealing with her and let the pros do their work. Not going to be pretty.

Don't let her run the show. Once she realizes she's losing power, she may give up with trying to ruin your life. Someone (probably not you) needs to tell her this can either be Difficult; or it can be Difficult, Messy and Traumatic. She needs to realize the stakes, and choose like a parent.


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## thebadguy

Blossom Leigh said:


> If you are not leaving right away, my best advice is two things for now...
> 
> The book Emotional Blackmail and the website Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support
> 
> These two will help you put some definitions around what you are seeing so that you can at least gain some footing until you decide what you are going to do with this relationship.
> 
> You have to gain knowledge to the point of recognizing gaslighting, blameshifting, emotional blackmail F.O.G.(fear, obligation, guilt), etc.
> 
> This is how I started to break free while hanging onto my sanity.
> 
> Also the book Boundaries by Townsend.
> 
> ETA: OH! and the website How to heal Abandonment Heartbreak & Self Sabotage - Susan Anderson will help you understand the "why" behind her emotional blackmail.


I have read the Emotional Blackmail. Actually...read that one like 3 years ago, maybe more. Still have it in my desk drawer. Walking on Eggshells is there too. 

What is crazy, is even being somewhat educated on the topic and having a degree in psychology...I am still not able to always recognize some of the tactics. When I do recognize what is going on and I call it out, she lays on the guilt and fear extra thick.


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## thebadguy

Kid's run was great. Son was awesome and happy to see me. LOTS of other parents...moms and dads....but not my son's mom. She decided it was too traumatic for her to be there if I was there too...which I was. As a volunteer she would have barely seen me.


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## Squeakr

Good you went then so at least someone was there for your child.


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## turnera

Drama queen.


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## GusPolinski

OP, I've not read the entire thread, but let me ask this...

What, if anything, was done to _constructively_ reconcile your marriage in the aftermath of your affair 5(ish) years ago...?


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## Blossom Leigh

You've said eventually you are leaving, correct?

So, my question would be how are you going to stay different until then?

She sounds very much like my mother in that not only are her reactions over the top, but her reasons are irrational. One of the reasons my mother cited for threatening to be mad at me for years to come depending on my future performance as her daughter was that I wasn't "there" for her when her father died. This struck me so odd since I not only was the one holding her while he passed in the hospital, but I also read my brothers eulogy since he could not fly home, AND wrote/read MY eulogy at the funeral. I found out the reason later.... Are you ready for it? Drumroll please for the irrationality now entering the building..... "You didn't hide your divorce from grammy long enough."

I was divorced in May. My Grammy didn't know until July. She found out because I was tired of wearing my rings around her. And she noticed the tension between me and my mom. So all of my presence and support at the hospital and funeral meant nothing, only her requirement of me to lie to her mother about MY divorce did. So in one fail swoop she totally guilted me for not adhering to a requirement I could have never guessed, obligated me to years of future servitude since I had failed so miserably and placed fear in me of losing her affection until such time I performed to her irrational request.

So you see, when they don't want you to win, you aren't going to win. I was told by one of my counselors that he suspects my mother is a Malignant Narcissist and I was realizing he was right. It was that moment of her massive emotional blackmail, in all my gut wrenching pain, after offering for her and I to head to Florida together to just have "us" time, that I raged for the first time after I politely ended the conversation with her and the phone was no longer connected. I had my belly full. Had it not been for my H I would have shown up on her door step and raged in her face. But his cooler head at the time prevailed and I ended up sobbing in his arms in the beginning stages of grieving the loss of my mother while she still lives. Within one year I stood up to her and told her that going forward things would be different. I would no longer take it in silence. She ended the relationship and not only abandoned finally me, while I was a new mom, but also my four month old son. That was the day my hope died of any change with her.

Since then I have learned more, and it sounds like you need more tools. Two if my best tools in the past year have been Welcome to Adult Children of Alcoholics - World Service Organization, Inc. and Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support. ACOA gave me the language of acceptable vs unacceptable and reasonable vs unreasonable. And out of the fog gave me the rest of the definitions I needed to navigate other toxic behaviors.

Two key areas I work on is not holding myself hostage to someone elses irrationality OR unreasonable requests. My mother was asking me to not only meet an unreasonable level of effort but to also do so while it was based in irrational logic. I don't cotton to that no more. I only engage reasonable effort, acceptance of reasonable RATIONAL requests. Blossom Leigh stepped off that crazy train. Now I no longer fear her. I see you needing to do the same.


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## Roller

blossom leigh said:


> so you see, when they don't want you to win, you aren't going to win.


so true!


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## thebadguy

GusPolinski said:


> OP, I've not read the entire thread, but let me ask this...
> 
> What, if anything, was done to _constructively_ reconcile your marriage in the aftermath of your affair 5(ish) years ago...?


this is all rehash, probably best told by reading this whole thread or my original thread.....we have done multiple counselors. There were a lot of long late night conversations. 'no contact' from d-day forward w/ OW. She defined what she needed. I tried to meet those needs. The words of what she needed always stayed the same. But they are things that only she is the judge of. Her view in the more rational moments was always "you need to do more". Flowers. massages. Love letters. Little notes. access to my phone and email. closed all social media. daily text messages of my schedule, GPS tracker on my phone...though i don't think she ever used it (i did not put it on when i got a new phone a couple months ago)

I don't want anyone to think I have handled my own affair well. I handled it terribly. Incompetently even. I think a much healthier woman would have probably filed for divorce 4 years ago. Then again, my handling of it may have taken a much better tone if she were a healthier woman. As it is, I have been afraid in many ways for more than 5 years.


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## Blossom Leigh

Correction...

You would have handled it better had YOU been healthier. Her health has nothing to do with your choices to handling yourself better.


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## thebadguy

Blossom Leigh said:


> Correction...
> 
> You would have handled it better had YOU been healthier. Her health has nothing to do with your choices to handling yourself better.


This is a good point. When I first read that, I was a little insulted but you're certainly right.

Me being healthier would have helped. Me not being stupid enough/so unhealthy as to have an affair in the first place would have definitely helped. 

Without the false pretext that I could ever possibly change who she is, me being healthier would have helped me make better decisions when faced with the unhealthy stuff she spewed before and especially after I had an affair.

My mindset in saying that was "I could have done what she wanted, if she had not reacted with abuse". There is no doubt something broken in that statement. Unraveling that is the trick I still grapple with.


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## Blossom Leigh

thebadguy said:


> This is a good point. When I first read that, I was a little insulted but you're certainly right.
> 
> Me being healthier would have helped. Me not being stupid enough/so unhealthy as to have an affair in the first place would have definitely helped.
> 
> Without the false pretext that I could ever possibly change who she is, me being healthier would have helped me make better decisions when faced with the unhealthy stuff she spewed before and especially after I had an affair.
> 
> My mindset in saying that was "I could have done what she wanted, if she had not reacted with abuse". There is no doubt something broken in that statement. Unraveling that is the trick I still grapple with.


Great thoughts... glad you ended up taking it in the intent that was intended  That's growth for sure right there... and that is part of keeping your eyes on your own paper. When you catch yourself saying things like "if she had done this or that, then I would have...etc... that is codependency language that needs fixing.

So good on you to not take it as insult since that was not the intent.


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## Roller

Blossom Leigh said:


> Great thoughts... glad you ended up taking it in the intent that was intended  That's growth for sure right there... and that is part of keeping your eyes on your own paper. When you catch yourself saying things like "if she had done this or that, then I would have...etc... that is codependency language that needs fixing.
> 
> So good on you to not take it as insult since that was not the intent.


So close to what my counselor pointed out to me today!


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## Roselyn

You are presently abused mentally and physically. Your son even kicks and hits you, just like his mother. He is mirroring her behavior. You say that you have a degree in psychology. You know what this behavior translates to which is anger towards you.

From reading this thread, you have cheated on your wife and handled it badly. You caused her a great deal of pain. Has she been like she is today, before your affair? If her behavior towards you manifested after your affair, she is punishing you. Are you staying in this marriage because of guilt & the children?

You might be better off legally separating and think whether you are to stay in this marriage or not. She is physically abusive and abuses alcohol to the point of endangering your children as she wish to drive in an intoxicated state. Your children are demonstrating a lot of anger and your son has learned that abuse is alright. They will become abusive adults as they see their mother abuse you. Your entire family is unravelling and all need professional counseling.


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## Blossom Leigh

What is your reaction and what do you do when your wife and child hit you? Is that still occurring?


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## imjustwatching

it's time to stop being a doormate like 5 months ago when the OM was bending over your wife and you were in front of the computer talking about it ....
-first step expose the affair to the OMW
-seconde if your wife is not remorsful file for a divorce it's doesn't have to end that way but to show her that there is some consequence to her actions


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## phillybeffandswiss

Roselyn said:


> You are presently abused mentally and physically. Your son even kicks and hits you, just like her mother. He is mirroring her behavior. You say that you have a degree in psychology. They will become abusive adults as they see their mother abuse you. Your entire family is unravelling and all need professional counseling.


Full circle. Others said the same thing months ago. How are you going to feel if your son grows too be an abuser or bully?


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## carmen ohio

*To all posters on this thread:*

This is OP's fourth thread concerning his relationship with his wife following his affair of about five years ago. If you read all of the threads, you will see that the OP's wife has been diagnosed by two counselors as having BPD and that she is emotionally and physically abusive toward him. Despite all this, the OP remained resolute until fairly recently about his desire to remain with his wife and repair his marriage.

Over the course of the threads, the OP described behavior by his wife that led him to suspect her of having and emotional and likely also physical affair. This was the focus of most of the posts on this thread until about a year ago, when it became clear that the abusive behavior in the OP's home might be harming his children.

To understand better what is going on, please read the five posts below:

- The first is the OP's recounting of his situation in April of this year, involving domestic violence against him by his wife and extremely disturbing behavior by his young son.

- The second is what I believe to be an excellent analysis of the OP's predicament, focusing on the harm that the OP's wife's and OP's behavior is having on their children.

- The third is another post from the OP, in which he (finally) realizes the risk that remaining with his wife poses for his children and agrees that he needs to _"exit"_ the relationship.

- The fourth post, from a few days ago, i.e., six and a half months after the OP claimed to understand the need to separate from his wife in order to protect his children, reveals that they are still together and that his focus has returned to his wife's affair rather than remaining on the harm that their relationship (and especially his wife's abusive behavior) is causing his children.

- The fifth post indicates that his children are, indeed, still suffering negative consequences.



thebadguy said:


> Had a really bad night last night. Has been brewing for the past week. It is the week of d-day, actually...that was Monday. 4 years.
> 
> My stepdaughter told my wife last night that she was still seeing a boy that my wife had 'forbidden' her to see. She's 15. The boy is friends with another boy who hit his girlfriend. I agree he isn't company she should keep. Her dad allows her to go out with him when she is over there. It is a mess. That somewhat triggered my wife. I came home to her having had 2 glasses of wine and looking for someone to unload on. She started unloading on me. My 6 yo son started kicking me. It is his defense mechanism. My wife starts yelling, he starts telling her he loves her and if I am around he starts kicking or hitting me. He came to kick me at one point (in socks this whole time) and slipped on the wood floor. He fell on his butt. She erupted. He started crying. She starts hitting me telling me i knocked him down. I have bruises today on my shoulder, elbow and back from it.
> 
> She goes to take the 15 yo to a sports practice and starts herding the boys to go with her. I tell her she isn't driving the kids anywhere because she is intoxicated. All this time she is yelling at me and I can smell the wine. She hasn't taken a drink in an hour but I can smell the wine. So I end up taking the 15 yo to her practice but she refuses to let me take the boys (I know I should have...I also know it would have escalated the situation further).
> 
> I came home to relative quiet. It stayed that way until 5am when she woke me up to talk (I don't normally wake until 6). Every time she starts yelling in front of the kids, I tell her I am happy to talk, but she needs to stop putting them in the conversation. So...she found a time. Compared to last night, this morning was a calm conversation, but at one point, she went to the kitchen, got a bag of flour, took a handful and tossed it into her own face as an illustration of how she hurts still. She also slapped herself a few times on the chest and detailed how she wishes sometimes that she could push her fingernail through the veins in her wrist and end the torment.
> 
> In the midst of this, I have no idea what is going on with her affair. She has changed the password for the carrier's website and changed the password to her phone.
> 
> I don't think I can take anymore or let anymore happen around my kids. And I am afraid. I am afraid I will not have my kids. Afraid I won't be able to afford a place to fit the 4 of us under the mountain of debt we have collected AND the cost of a highly contentious divorce. How do people do this?





BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I'm lost for words. Truly lost for words.
> 
> I've just spent the morning reading all of TBG''s threads.
> 
> Here is a father that is so completely emotionally tied to an abusive, deranged and psychotic woman for 4 long and terrible years; is so completely in her thrall that he has stated he is prepared to WILLINGLY "go down with the sinking ship" and thereby take his kids all the way down there too.
> 
> I find it disturbing in the extreme and in my line of work I thought I had seen and heard it all.
> 
> TBG. That you and your "wife" are happy to sink together I could care less about to be honest.
> 
> But that you and her are destroying the lives of innocent children in this horrendous and despicable way, horrifies and disgusts me.
> 
> It's like watching a malevolent, macabre dance of death that I am not quite able to avert my from eyes from.
> 
> God, please help and love those children. Their parents are utterly and completely failing them.





thebadguy said:


> I have let this go too long. No question. I have been willing to sacrifice myself but have been unintentionally sacrificing my kids at the same time, thinking I was taking the brunt of it. Incidents like Wednesday happen 2-3 times a year. There is enough time in between big events that it is easy to slide back into thinking things will get better with time. There was a time when I was much more dedicated to the notion of making it work....to 'go down with the ship' but I am not in that place anymore. This is the 5th or 6th time, I think, that she has left bruises on me. I am ready to call it a lost cause.
> 
> So I need to make an orderly exit. I don't think I can inform her of my decision until I have filed. I think it would give her an opportunity to do something drastic.
> 
> I have been stuck on how to force split custody as the temporary circumstance while divorce happens. Temporary order, yes...how quickly can that be put in place? What insanity happens in between her finding out about that and there being something in force? Anything other than a legally binding agreement is going to result in her attempting to abscond with my kids.
> 
> She is willing to put them through a tug of war and with her emotional victim appearance, my kids would, at this point, choose to do what they think will keep her from turning on them. How do you combat that?
> 
> I am not deluding myself. I know this will be the battle of my lifetime. And she already has an advantage with regard to custody. She only works part time as an insurance agent and is with the kids the rest of the time. Obviously that can't continue as is if she is to start working full time but how does that translate for custody? I have no doubt a judge will give me more than she will but it is the interim crazy time I am worried about. How to mitigate (no response that says 'work with her' is going to work)?
> 
> Several people said to go to the police and file a report. Does she have to know a report was filed?
> 
> And I don't know what else...





thebadguy said:


> I wanted to update this thread. Hopefully anybody who reads the last few pages of this thread will read this post before they reply to things that were written back in April.
> 
> I don't need help with whether and how to record stuff.
> I don't need help as to whether to file a police report or not.
> I have exactly zero questions about whether she had her own affair or not.
> 
> I just wanted to say she gave a confession yesterday. I was not at all surprised by the content. I was annoyed by the hostility she had about it. She admitted to having given her 'buddy' a bj half a dozen times and to having been fondled in return. Whether it was 5 times or 50, doesn't matter to me. Whether it was intercourse and this was her way of minimizing, doesn't matter to me. I put together a mental picture of the event and I find both sides of it...her and the OM...pathetic. She said it was very Julia Roberts / Pretty Woman...no kissing. As if I would be relieved that she hadn't touched lips with the dude before or after he presumably orgasmed into her mouth.





> Originally Posted by *thebadguy*
> And today, she is back to herself. My 7 year old has a school run today. She volunteered to help with it. He asked if I would come (too...not in place of). I told her I was going to come. She said she didn't want me to because it "would diminish her". I gave an analogy as to why it would not diminish her and she threw an absolute cursing, crying tantrum because she wanted it to herself. Then...I tried to say 'fine. i will stay at work' and she told me I had already ruined it for her and to go.
> 
> She still views all of this as her being hurt by me. She thinks I am the emotional abuser. She has said it enough that I get twisted in my own head as to what is real and what is fiction.
> 
> You can call me deluded but I am still trying to figure out what is abuse and what is normal or at least realistic reaction to my own affair from almost 5 years ago.
> 
> I am not trying to be complicit to abuse. I definitely don't want to be.


I bring this to everybody's attention so that you can better advise him. For myself, I believe that the OP and his wife are both seriously emotionally disturbed (she with BPD and he being extremely codependent) and that his children are likely being harmed as a result. If I knew who he was, I would report the matter to the relevant child protection agency. Since I can't do that, I am hoping that some of you will take time to see what is going on and urge him to protect his children.

Of course, I also hope that, reading this post, the OP may finally gain the courage to take action. However, given that he seems as confused as ever, I have my doubts that any amount of cautioning and/or cajoling will move him.

I really hope I'm wrong.


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