# How can you wrap your mind around it and recover intimacy?



## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

For those that have been the victim and choose to reconcile your relationship; how is this even possible? 

I'm really curious, I as the victim 3 years out I still can not even begin the fathom intimacy with the woman. I wrote in another thread that after I initially found out and choose to be stupid (stay with her) we talked, had sex (umgph just puked in my mouth, swallowing.. o.k. continuing on) but it was not about intimacy. The sex was about me trying to reconquer the mountain. Which lasted oh about a month before my mind switched into a different gear. It is from this point on that I have only been able to see her as tainted goods.

I Have not had sex in over 1 year (I'm sure), she has tried to initiate a few times, but I'll generally respond with "what the hell is wrong with you, get off me" or some snide comment related to the OM like "yeah I'm sure he liked when you blew in his ear, or touched his hand, or put your hand on his leg on the couch etc..now would you please leave me alone.. Thank you".. Stuff like that, and some quite a bit more crass and related to sex-

Ok putting all that aside for the moment for those that do choose the reconciliation route how can you be intimate again?

I mean seriously some other dude was grinding away on top of your wife, possibly dropping bombs if they didn't use protection, or in the case of oral sex she was catching swimmers in the mouth. I mean how can you put the image away? and move forward with her intimately.

I mean just the visions are enough to make me nutz at times, her riding him with her hands on his chest grinding back and forth on him etc. How can you folks not see it as spoiled meat? Perhaps as a guy victim its worse (I might be jaded here) because the woman cheater has to give herself to a man, has to physically CHOOSE TO TAKE THE OM INSIDE OF HER, she is constantly giving herself to someone else.

So that's basically the question, how can you wrap your mind around spending the rest of your life as 2nd best? Which is how I view it because she gave herself to #1 (the OM) and only came back when she was caught and/or the OM got cold feet cause you were closing in on the affair.. Making you the last man standing or #2.. old hubby, stupidly faithful and willing to reconcile so he can keep her.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Reading these threads..I wish that before people had EA's or PA's they would really think about all the damage that their actions are creating. It is so selfish of the WS.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I honestly don't think you can if that is still the perspective you hold.

Sex and intimacy start in your head. So unless you and your wife can do more work together to help you with the agonizing thoughts, you won't be able to be intimate. Seeing your wife as a spoiled meat rather than someone who made a huge mistake does not open the doors to intimacy.

Why do you want to stay with her? What is keeping you there? Something must be or you'd leave. Whatever it is holds the key to getting over the video in your head, as that's the only foundation you have right now.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

I think the key is that she was caught, rather than stopped and came to you saying sorry, of her own accord. I think that unless she willingly and clearly repents then there is no way for you to move on. However, if she does then you need to make a decision to drop everything. That's how you move on: you decide to. If you wait to feel different you will wait forever. Make a strong decision to drop it all and forgive. That's the only way.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Bandit are you still with her? And if you are, why not just bail from the marriage at this point. You're done with her a long time ago. Or are you enjoying torturing her for hurting you?

Not attacking you but it seems it's probably best to jump ship at this point and call it a day.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Placing me and my individual situation aside I am wondering how other spouses either male or female were able to move past this point. I mean seriously how do you wrap your mind around that and actually force yourself to be meaningfully passionate, or for those that have actually reconciled how can you not be forcing yourself against every natural fiber in your being when you are intimate?


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Bandit said:


> Placing me and my individual situation aside I am wondering how other spouses either male or female were able to move past this point. I mean seriously how do you wrap your mind around that and actually force yourself to be meaningfully passionate, or for those that have actually reconciled how can you not be forcing yourself against every natural fiber in your being when you are intimate?


You cannot force yourself to do it. You have to make a conscious decision that you love your WS enough to be able to forgive what they have done and stay with them to work together and build a stronger marriage. Notice I said forgive, not forget, you can never forget. Others have been able to forgive and move on to a better life together. But this is rare and takes time and a commitment by both spouses to work toward a common goal. Most who try simply cannot make it and eventually give up.

So my answer to your question is "You can not force yourself to be intimate". You forgive and commit to rebuilding the relationship or you do not.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

cheatinghubby said:


> Bandit are you still with her? And if you are, why not just bail from the marriage at this point. You're done with her a long time ago. Or are you enjoying torturing her for hurting you?
> 
> Not attacking you but it seems it's probably best to jump ship at this point and call it a day.


No offense taken, jumping briefly back into my own situation.. I imagine that there is a certain amount of sadism involved on my part or as you said enjoy hurting her for hurting me. Probably to put it another way, I will make you miserable by rejecting you at every turn giving you no chance to demonstrate sorrow and force you to see me miserable which is a result of your actions.. As for what keeps us dumb asses in it.. I guess "hope" would be a good answer.. as I'm pretty sure its not love..

As I said I'm curious how others have made it past this point...or their experiences...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I'll be honest, we were both sex crazed from the get go during the start of R - no lie I went from a 2-4 times a month to a 6-8 times a week clip. AND the sex was ten times better. I found her "g-spot" during that time frame as well. 

After reading about infidelity 2 years later I learned I experienced what some go through called, "hysterical bonding". It's like my primal instinct was to reclaim my cavewoman or something like that.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Although I don't have personal experience, a friend mentioned thinking of the affair partner as an ex-boyfriend. Their marriage was reset, so to speak, as they were working on a new one (a different way to say that the old marriage was dead, now that I think of it). His wife was not a virgin when they were first married, so he worked to put her affair in that same bucket, if you will. 

I don't know how well that worked, but it made sense logically. He is still with her (as far as I know), but our friendship has naturally faded over the last five years.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

It starts with accepting that your wife is human and she screwed up. A lot of humans screw up, and they often hurt others when they screw up big time.

Once you accept that humanity, you have to start _actively _letting it go. By actively, I mean shutting down the angry thoughts when they come to mind, and not bringing up the hurts to needle her when a hurt springs to mind. You have to make a choice to do that, though. You have to decide that you want to repair the marriage and then behave as if you do.

Do something different, behave differently, change your actions little by little, change your thoughts little by little - because what you are doing and have been doing isn't helping you. You aren't letting her "get away with" anything; you would be helping yourself move on. Wouldn't it feel good to let yourself move on?


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I'll be honest, we were both sex crazed from the get go during the start of R - no lie I went from a 2-4 times a month to a 6-8 times a week clip. AND the sex was ten times better. I found her "g-spot" during that time frame as well.
> 
> After reading about infidelity 2 years later I learned I experienced what some go through called, "hysterical bonding". It's like my primal instinct was to reclaim my cavewoman or something like that.


I got what your saying and as I said I am sure reclaiming my mountain had something to do with it, before I flipped the switch in my mind and became repulsed by the mere thought. That's to easy, anyway..* "hey hon, go bang somebody else, and we can hysterically bond it all away" or "you can screw your way out of the situation just like you screwed your way into it"*.. I'll pass, fzck her, you don't get off that easy.. In many ways I would rather super glue her hands to the dash and run this truck into the river with both of us before I kick her out..--metaphor..(not homicidal) 

As stated ok so you were sex crazed cool, but how did you get past the fact that the lips your were kissing had another dudes **** in between them a few weeks, months before etc.. Your old lady on her knees and some other dudes hand on the back of her head; far cry from making me sex crazed or wanting to hysterically bound.

Reminds me of a song by David Alan Coe less the racial aspect.


> And to think I licked the *****
> were that [other dudes] **** had been
> and kissed the lips that sucked him off
> time and time again
> ...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I certainly had flashes of the OM and what they did and it destroyed my confidence for sure, but the 15 minute long intense orgasms I gave my wife empowered me. It was as if I was saying to the OM "Ha! You fvcker! I am a better lover than you!!"


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

So I guess you were both virgins and have never ever been with anyone else. You had to deal with the fact your wife may or may not have done things with another partner prior to you and she had to deal with that in regards to you as well.

I still do the mind movies, it is a hard road. This stuff is working out with us slowly in MC with us. 

Either realy try and fix it, MC , IC or just get out. Best of luck!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

We did the hysterical bonding thing too, and I found out later what it was. But it was over 3 months after D day that we became intimate again.

I have never felt repulsed by the thought of sex with my hubby, before or since reconciling. I don't think I could be with him if I was. There is no question in my mind that he is truly remorseful for what he did - if there was, I couldn't be with him either. Sure, there have been instances where I triggered during sex, thankfully not recently, and we just have had to work through it together. We both want to work through them, because we both now realize that what we have together is something neither of us wants to lose.

It sounds to me like you can't get past the mind movies - you might have PISD (like PTSD but after infidelity instead of some other trauma). I guess what you need to answer is whether the rest of your relationship is something you want to save or not. If not, then move on. If it is, then there are things that you can do to get past it.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

norajane said:


> It starts with accepting that your wife is human and she screwed up. A lot of humans screw up, and they often hurt others when they screw up big time.


This is (IMHO) about as weak as you can get.. Accept she is human and screwed up.. o.k. I'll respond this way, once you make a decision to pull the trigger (cheat) and fire that round its going down range, you can't take it back, its gone, something is going to get hit.

I mean you don't accidentally cheat, you don't oops I tripped and ended up with a **** in my mouth.. It does not work that way. 

The cheater makes a conscious, concerted effort to cheat. It is a decision that is made hundreds if not thousands of time during the affair. It's not an ooops, I screwed up, I human, oh-well sorry, lets hold each other cry, and hysterically bond our way through this.

It is a decision that involves intentionally deceiving their partner. --likewise this decision is made hundreds if not thousands of times during the affair. In the romantic arena it is an aggravated crime done with malice.

To further dispel the "oops mentality", I'll look at it this way.. If you are driving along at night and go to change the radio station, swerve off the road and hit a pedestrian and call the police.. --that's an OOPS..

If you get out of the car and see he is still breathing and finish him off with a hammer, then drag the body into the woods to CONCEAL THE CRIME, -then that is aggravated, its not an OOPS, the aspect of concealment implies guilt on the part of the one doing the concealing-thus OOPS does not apply..

In order to cheat a Wayward Spouse must- 

1)make a decision to involve themselves in a situation conducive to cheating.
2)make a decision to go through with the act
3)make a decision to lie to the spouse in order to have time to commit the act further.
4)make a decision to ensure that the act remains concealed

The last 3 are made hundreds of times...not an OOPS

Additionally I think that the type of offense should be taken into account when trying to apply the were all human defense (WAH). 


I'm hungry in the middle of the night so I ate the last piece of cake- WAH

I accidentally fart in the middle of Thanksgiving dinner with your parents -WAH

I glance at a chic with big boobs in the mall -WAH

I forgot to feed the dog- WAH

I get caught rubbing one out in the shower in the AM -WAH

I conceive, carry out, and conceal an illicit affair with a secret lover funded by money belonging to my current marriage, then lie about everything to keep the deception going, only coming clean when I am caught dead to rights.. (WAH does not apply)--Your EVIL


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

You see things in black and white, R is not for you obviously

and that's fine- I don't think everyone should R


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I get where he is coming from...I feel the same anger about the lies and the deceit. It is hard to let that go.

It bothers me the secret email addresses that were set up, the password that was put on his laptop, the running around trying to get information on temp. foreign workers so this chick could come to Canada to find work and live happily ever after with him. Because he was taking time off between jobs, while I was at work he was on the internet talking and messaging this person.

I sugges to the OP that perhaps counselling might work..with a really good counsellor.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't need lessons on what cheating is. I have lived through it, on the receiving end, and have come out the other side. I gave you my perspective; you don't have to agree with it. But don't make assumptions and talk down to me based on those assumption.

Good luck to you.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

mahike said:


> So I guess you were both virgins and have never ever been with anyone else. You had to deal with the fact your wife may or may not have done things with another partner prior to you and she had to deal with that in regards to you as well.


Does not apply as there was a) no deception involved; b) no choosing one over the other; c) no violation of trust. Just focusing on the sex act is minimizing; with a cheater there is active deception, and complete disregard for you as a human being. Additionally there is no frame of reference to well you both had a B/F, G/F before and did stuff with other people. That is akin to saying well why you so upset, some couples are swingers and they get along just fine. 



Almostrecovered said:


> I certainly had flashes of the OM and what they did and it destroyed my confidence for sure, but the 15 minute long intense orgasms I gave my wife empowered me. It was as if I was saying to the OM "Ha! You fvcker! I am a better lover than you!!"


True maybe, or perhaps the offender is going that extra mile to atone for his or her sins.. (oh your so much better than him/her.. bigger, stronger, prettier, get me off more whatever.. it's a confidence building technique to assuage the victims damaged psyche)- its obvious they are willing to lie --duh, about anything and everything.. Also what changed I'm the same person and so are they so why is it now that the sex would be SOOOOOOO much better? seems odd as the ingredients are all the same; unless of course somebody is lying.. 

I would lie like hell to if I were in the cheaters boat, (especially if I thought it could take some pressure of the situation and get me a bit further out of the dog house) I'd tell her she was the best, the one, that sex with the other person meant nothing, that her x,y,z are better, or feel better, or get me off better, yada yada yada--- pick your lie...


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

norajane said:


> I don't need lessons on what cheating is. I have lived through it, on the receiving end, and have come out the other side. I gave you my perspective; you don't have to agree with it. But don't make assumptions and talk down to me based on those assumption.
> 
> Good luck to you.


Not trying to offend, and I apologize if you felt like I was talking down.. I'm sorry.. I was just giving a different point of view while debating the topic.. Again my apologies..


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> You see things in black and white, R is not for you obviously
> 
> and that's fine- I don't think everyone should R


And so did you initially; Black and White <----> Anger and Hurt.. As I imagine most victims initially did.. 

My question is how did you go from Black and White to the Grey area you currently live in? Angry and Hurt by this Person but still want to give a little more of myself to pleasure them..


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Bandt, you haven't reconciled. You just haven't divorced her, but you are not in a rel marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Here is a thread from a BS who found a way to overcome his bitterness and reconcile:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...use-cheated-what-can-you-do-about-images.html

The other idea that people have used is to imagine that their old marriage is gone, and they are starting a new marriage. They stop wishing that the past could be different, and work together to form a new relationship.

As others have said, not everyone wants to reconcile. If that is the case, then divorce is the answer.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

While I completely agree with you on the mind movies thing, it's sounds like you're punishing your wife for your own pleasure, it's seems rather cruel.......


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## LuvMyH (Nov 11, 2009)

Bandit,

I'm almost 3 yrs out, too. While my feelings toward my husband are different than your feelings for your wife, I understand why you feel the way you do. What I don't understand is why you stay married to someone who repulses you. Maybe there's a fine line between love and hate? 

Regardless, we only get one life and we never know how long or short it will be. If you see no chance for happiness with your wife, don't you think you should move on? You deserve to be happy. Don't waste your life away being angry. Something I heard while recovering was that not forgiving someone is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. The only one you're hurting is yourself. 

Do you really want to live the rest of your life without intimacy? Either work on that with your wife or do yourself a huge favor and divorce her. People here who have been through situations similar to yours wish you well and hope you find happiness. And sex. Without repulsion. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> The other idea that people have used is to imagine that their old marriage is gone, and they are starting a new marriage.


There's no imagining it - the old marriage IS gone. That vow was broken, big time. We did a vow renewal thing on our anniversary last year - nothing fancy, just between us, but we said new vows to each other.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Bandit I am only a little over two weeks into my second betrayal recovery. Its divorce this time, but this thread has me dreading the next few years!!


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Bandit said:


> So that's basically the question, how can you wrap your mind around spending the rest of your life as 2nd best? Which is how I view it because she gave herself to #1 (the OM) and only came back when she was caught and/or the OM got cold feet cause you were closing in on the affair.. Making you the last man standing or #2.. old hubby, stupidly faithful and willing to reconcile so he can keep her.


Why do you want to stay with her? Doesn't sound like there's much of a point, if that's your whole story.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

LuvMyH said:


> Bandit,
> Maybe there's a fine line between love and hate?
> Something I heard while recovering was that not forgiving someone is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes there is a fine line between love and hate and you don't stop loving someone just because they betrayed you. You can't erase the years of good memories, you can't erase the person that was always by your side when everyone else (at times) could not bother with you. That is the battle we face I suppose, because the person you once knew is there somewhere and you hope yourself to death trying to go back to that place, to once again find the lost thread, that broken connection. 

You also guilt the hell out of yourself, was it me?, did I cause it?, did I work to much? did I spend to much time at the gym training?, did I this, did I that... What if I would have done this.. maybe it's all my fault and I deserve the hurt.. all the stupid **** that when you write it down seems ridiculous, but when you live it and your heart is in it.. When you still lust after the past its just become an unshakable mess of emotion.
but you have a real hard time balancing out the hurt with the hope, the two of them are in constant competition..

You know there is a lot of truth in the "swallowing poison" analogy. One of those I will make you hurt through my hurt, stupid yes.. but again matters of the heart are not generally prone to reason.



bandit.45 said:


> Bandit I am only a little over two weeks into my second betrayal recovery. Its divorce this time, but this thread has me dreading the next few years!!


From reading your story; I suppose as long as you kick her to the curb and get rid of the main trigger 'her'; you will probably be much better off than I.



lascarx said:


> Why do you want to stay with her? Doesn't sound like there's much of a point, if that's your whole story.


That is the whole story sadly enough


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

You didn't answer the question though!

If you can't forgive her and you can't be intimate with her because of the images of the other man 'putting swimmers in her mouth' then why stay with her?

What a mental image by the way and I agree that just because you were both sexual with others before you met isn't going to get your mind out of this one because she was with the other guy while she was supposedly committed to you. 

If you were going to be able to get over this one you already would have.


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## NatashaYurino (Jan 2, 2012)

I feel the same as you, and I am a woman. So I believ it does have much difference if you are a male or female victom. 

Intimacy looses it's appeal in my eyes after someone cheats.

I always thought the same things as you. How can I touch him knowing someone's hands, mouth, breats,...you name it, was there just a while ago. I would have a hard time doing something like oral sex (which is something I enjoy doing with my BF) on my SO knowing some other woman's genital was there. How can I kiss him knowing he used the same lips and tongue to kiss her all over, to perform oral on her. It becomes tainted like you said.issed:


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## CruxAve (Dec 30, 2011)

Bandit, you don't give me much hope for where I'll be in 3 years. I'm about 6 months out now, and see where you are coming from. I go through the same thing. You're 100% right. How can any real man get past such thoughts. 

Someone mentioned forgiveness, and I think that's the key. Like you, I'm not there yet.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Bandido---why are you dreading freedom---there is a whole world out there, and many women DO NOT BREAK THEIR VOWS

Just think once divorced---you will begin to have peace of mind again, you will live thru carefree days again---and you may even trust again---that will come much more slowly---but there is life after D., and in many cases---wonderful life

I always wonder how betrayed's can tolerate their cheating spouse----How do you stand the site of them, how do you touch them, how do you talk to them, knowing that what they did, they did willingly, in many cases happily, and believe me they knew with every step they took, and with every stop sign they went thru, they knew what the consequences would/could be----

The cheater figures either they will not be caught, or they can possibly lie/talk their way out of what they have done---or they know for whatever reason their betrayed spouse will not leave

There is also the matter of self-respect---how much does the betrayed respect themselves, after they have had their mge/family murdered, and their heart destroyed

Its all in how you look at it, how you deal with it, and how much misery you wanna live thru.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

jnj express said:


> Just think once divorced---you will begin to have peace of mind again, you will live thru carefree days again---and you may even trust again---that will come much more slowly---but there is life after D., and in many cases---wonderful life


So true, and now that I am here there is something I can add to this. When you are with a person, in a relationship, and you are not married to them, the odds of cheating are much less because it's easier to get out of the relationship if things go bad. 

Rather than being forced to stay with a person due to finances, children, or bound by the court system.. whereby a disatisfied partner might choose to cheat rather than leave first, in a nonlegal union, this is not the case. The two parties are together because they WANT to be. 

Not to say cheating can't happen but it's much less likely and if it does happen it's much easier to make the break when there's no legal ties, or children, or division of assets, or support, or all that nonsense.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

*Forgiveness is not about him/her. It is about you.
* 

*To forgive you must fist let him/her go. 
*

Let go of your spouse. 
Let of your lover
Let of your your friend.
Let go of the responsibility you feel.
Let go of all the dreams you had together.
Let go as a married man/woman.

When you have done that. You can let go of the past and see them for the person they are. Not the person they were.

You have no choice in this because the person you loved and came home to, has gone. They left you. They willingly chose to all those things with somebody else. All the things that were reserved for you. All that love is gone.

For me, it was that she smiled at him in the same way she had smiled at me for 25 years. Isn't it strange how different people react.

So, now you forgive them. You look at him/her and see them as they really are, and perhaps you don't like what you see. 

"This man cheated on his wife for a long time and only stopped doing it because he was caught."

"This woman was discovered in an EA, and not only decided to continue it for 10 months in front of her husband but went to a married man OM and fckd him daily."


Would you go on a date with her? 
Would you ever marry her?

If she was remorseful and took responsibility for her actions and she could see the damage that she had inflicted, if she made no excuses. Then, yes I could [and did] go out with a woman who had done this. 

Perhaps you fall back in each others arms. 
I'm happy for you. You found each other.

People do make very bad mistakes which effect the rest of their lives. There are consequences to actions and one of them may be that they lose your love.


If you no longer love them let her go. 
You both deserve more than a dead marriage.


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## str8insane (Jan 30, 2012)

Bandit..
For me it is a total turn off..i havent slept with my hubby forever.i slept on the couch..the 1st mistake he made was when he 1st came home from deployment was after 14yrs 2gether he was different in bed..i knew right away what was up..then i found what my gut was screaming at me..the worst part of my life was i have the video & pix of him screwing her.he was stupid by leaving his sd card in his camera he deleted the items but i had a sd recover program on my laptop & my world became dark..let me tell you this..i cant stand to look at him much less to hear his voice..i want to hurt him.just so he would feel just an inch of pain as i feel.but he aint worth going to jail for..not one day...i mean not one day goes by without those visions of him & her..i cant even listen to songs nomore becuz he ruined that too.i agree with you so much on what your feeling.every time he trys to touch me i tell him to get away from me.


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## Bugz Bunny (Nov 28, 2011)

I think that for you just like for me infidelity is a dealbreaker...
After D day I moved out the next day and I never touched her again...Months later after the divorce was final, I found a nice and beautiful girl who respects and loves me like I respect and love her and my life is great now...

So my choice was a fresh start with someone else and it was a great choice...

Good Luck


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

str8insane said:


> Bandit..
> For me it is a total turn off..i havent slept with my hubby forever.i slept on the couch..the 1st mistake he made was when he 1st came home from deployment was after 14yrs 2gether he was different in bed..i knew right away what was up..then i found what my gut was screaming at me..the worst part of my life was i have the video & pix of him screwing her.he was stupid by leaving his sd card in his camera he deleted the items but i had a sd recover program on my laptop & my world became dark..let me tell you this..i cant stand to look at him much less to hear his voice..i want to hurt him.just so he would feel just an inch of pain as i feel.but he aint worth going to jail for..not one day...i mean not one day goes by without those visions of him & her..i cant even listen to songs nomore becuz he ruined that too.i agree with you so much on what your feeling.every time he trys to touch me i tell him to get away from me.


And yet like me you appear to still be there.. in the situation. Probably kicking yourself in the head on a daily basis like me, wanting to go but unable to leave


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Anyone is able to leave. It's a choice. After what you wrote, especially about howyou get pleasure for making her feel bad and the way you speak to her when she tries to touch you....I don't uunderstand why you are still with her. You don't love her. Someone whoo loved her wouldn't talk to her that way or describe it as a saadistic pleasure making her feel bad. I don't know why she tolerates it either. No offense. The entire situatioon sounds sickening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Maybe this is what she thinks is her penance , staying with you even thou she knows you despise her, seeing how angry you still are and that she feels worthless and deserves to be unhappy forever for her betrayel......


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Someone whoo loved her wouldn't talk to her that way or describe it as a saadistic pleasure making her feel bad.


When your pissed and hurt you will pretty much say whatever to make the other person feel the same way or worse. Some folks even revenge cheat...




Jellybeans said:


> I don't know why she tolerates it either. No offense.


b) She deserves it, or how bout none of this would have come about had it not been for her actions, or I did nothing wrong, or she has hope as well, or I could go on forever... but I suppose she could leave and/or run away.. That's a good lesson to teach. Hey go rob a bank, you don't have to tolerate the punishment just leave the state.. oh and no offense taken



Jellybeans said:


> The entire situatioon sounds sickening.


It is a toxic situation, but not one that I created.. I'm not the bad guy in this situation, nor will I tolerate minimizing her actions or shoveling sympathy on top of her (cause oh she's been through enough).. boo hoo.. 



strugglinghusband said:


> Maybe this is what she thinks is her penance , staying with you even thou she knows you despise her, seeing how angry you still are and that she feels worthless and deserves to be unhappy forever for her betrayel......


There is probably a lot of truth to this..


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

You stated that one of the reasons why you don't bolt from the marriage was because you were not confident in finding another woman out there. What would you do if you encounter one and she gave you signals that she wanted you? Would you then leave your wife to be with this other woman?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

> ... how can you wrap your mind around spending the rest of your life as 2nd best? Which is how I view it because she gave herself to #1 (the OM) and only came back when she was caught and/or the OM got cold feet cause you were closing in on the affair.. Making you the last man standing or #2.. old hubby, stupidly faithful and willing to reconcile so he can keep her.


Does this mean that you feel unmanned?



> The cheater makes a conscious, concerted effort to cheat


Does this mean you hate her for lying?



> I would lie like hell to if I were in the cheaters boat, (especially if I thought it could take some pressure of the situation and get me a bit further out of the dog house) I'd tell her she was the best, the one, that sex with the other person meant nothing, that her x,y,z are better, or feel better, or get me off better, yada yada yada--- pick your lie...


... or that you can't believe her even when she does say that she loves you? Do you believe that she no longer loves you? Or is it simply that you just don't know? Or is it that you don't love her?



> You also guilt the hell out of yourself, was it me?, did I cause it?, did I work to much? did I spend to much time at the gym training?, did I this, did I that... What if I would have done this.. maybe it's all my fault and I deserve the hurt


It was you, but it was also her. You already know this.

This isn't a judgement, this is a recommendation. I think you need to get some counseling. 

You seem to be bottling it all up inside and it's eating you alive. Talking about it here is going to get you lots of advice and some emotional support but it's going to be a lot of other people relating their own experience to you (most of which will be 'get a divorce'). There is value in that but this isn't about us (we are all dealing with our own issues too), it's about you. It's not that we don't want to help; I think any one of us would if we could, but we can't; this is about you.

A counselor might get you talking and that will get you to think about what you're feeling and why and may even be able to help give you some exercises/homework to try.

Why do you stay? Do you still love your wife? Are you afraid to leave? Do you want to leave but feel trapped by finances? Do you *want* to hold onto that hurt? Are you getting off on holding all of the power? Do you want to prove to yourself that it wasn't your fault and that if you hold onto the hurt and tell her to 'get off me', she'll cheat again and prove to you just how much of a kunt she really is? Maybe you really do want to leave but you can't bear the thought of being the one to leave, or you don't want to face the consequences? Maybe you want to alienate her enough so that she'll get fed up and do it for you? Maybe you just want to hurt her the way that she hurt you?

I don't know the answers to any of these questions but what I do know is that after 3 years, I would hope that you do. If that's the case then you are refusing to acknowledge them or you are afraid of them.

Of course, if you don't know then you don't have the tools you need to get through this on your own and you really do need to find someone who does that can help you. What does your wife think about these videos that play through your head? Or have you discussed them with her at any time other than when you were angry at her?

Anyways, at this point it is you that is doing the lying. Your wife may truly love you and she may not. But by holding onto this grudge you will never know and you will never fix your marriage. Of course, she may view you as a meal ticket and you are letting her take advantage of you. Which is it? Is she trying to make amends or isn't she? What does your gut say? Or, has she tried to make amends in the past but that lessened off when you stopped being so angry at her and did that retrigger your anger and make her step back up again?

She ****ed up, yes. But it's been three years and you owe it to yourself (and, IMHO, her because right now you are wasting years of both your lives), to get past the worst of this.

You have a hard choice to make and you're not making it. What are you running from?

Note: We all run from things but the problem is that until we *do* something about those things, we are stuck in that emotional limbo and it sounds like that's where you are now.

I'm not saying you should stay or go, just that what you are doing now is torturing both of you (and could lead to you having a revenge affair or your wife simply leaving you because she can't take it anymore). If your wife is making every effort to make it work and you are not then if the marriage breaks up, this time it will be your fault. Yes, many others here will disagree and they are welcome to, this is all just my take on your situation from far too little information. And being a WS, I don't share your pain. I am looking at it from the other side as someone who had an EA and it nearly destroyed me.

So whatever the reasons were for the affair (be they issues with the marriage or the persons in it) they are still completely relevant because it sounds like you've not fixed them. And if that's the case then you are still living in your old marriage with your old wife (whom you hate).

Also, someone said that a real man couldn't abide a cheater. I disagree. IMHO, real man can do what he needs to do to for himself; whatever that may be, and sometimes that involves getting help and that very nearly always involves him facing his fears.

Three years is a long time to be hiding, don't you think?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Bandit said:


> Not trying to offend, and I apologize if you felt like I was talking down.. I'm sorry.. I was just giving a different point of view while debating the topic.. Again my apologies..


Thank you for your apology. No harm done. 

I know you think my advice is weak...but I'll say it anyway: Those replays in your head are punishing you as much (or more) as they are punishing her. I believe that if you stop punishing her, you will stop punishing yourself, too.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

_Originally Posted by strugglinghusband 
Maybe this is what she thinks is her penance , staying with you even thou she knows you despise her, seeing how angry you still are and that she feels worthless and deserves to be unhappy forever for her betrayel...... _

*There is probably a lot of truth to this*

Bandit this is no way to live( if you could even call it that) for either one of you, your anger will consume you, it will eat away anything good left in you, if you continue to feed it.....I read what you thought about counslers, they are good ones out there, really, you just have to find the right one....

Do you have the ability to forgive? not so much for your wife, but for yourself? ( I am not saying her betraying you was your fault in any way)


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

morituri said:


> You stated that one of the reasons why you don't bolt from the marriage was because you were not confident in finding another woman out there. What would you do if you encounter one and she gave you signals that she wanted you? Would you then leave your wife to be with this other woman?


I am assuming that the question refers to the current time frame. Post D day and me knowing all that I know now..and as convoluted as this may sound I would say there is probably less of a likelihood of me doing that than Pre D day. My reasoning is as such:

(Slight bit of background) I have been fortunate in my life in many ways, athletically, intellectually, aesthetically etc. With all of the shows (fights- sanctioned athletic events) that I used to participate in, and the condition that I had to keep myself in to compete at the requisite level, the chance to cheat was ever present and many of my team mates did. Add to that that many times not only did they cheat on their own spouses but they cheated with a women that were in many cases married at the time. Usually women in their 20's that were at the after party or had seen the event with friends. I was always a bit of a square in so far as going to after parties and getting stupid and such. If I did go, and I knew that the potential to act stupid was high.. ie.. team mate telling me that "hey whats her name can't wait to see you at the after party or whatever".. I would usually make sure that a) I rubbed one out in the hotel before going out (not leaving with a loaded weapon) and b) did not drink.. Also I very rarely stayed longer than an hour or so, not really my scene and I was usually sore as hell anyway. 

I'm a fairly quiet soft spoken dude in my everyday life, (my second business is I own a pet resort, where I board, groom and train dogs.. Yes I can groom a Toy Poodle from start to finish). Most people that meet me are shocked to find out what I do, like they would never have guessed. But after I tell them or my friends do or they see pictures and stuff at my house they stare at me a little harder as all the little scars and stuff on my face now make sense. In social gatherings I prefer to sit on the outside, quietly and just watch folks act a fool. If you go to a bar I'll probably be the guy sitting at the table by myself watching every bodies stuff drinking a single Miller light with a glass of water right next to it. I also seem to have more problems than those acting a fool when I go out. As I'm quick to apologize if I bump into somebody or something along those lines and if it escalates I'll go out of my way for the chance to just walk away and avoid a problem. Which your average bar dude will take for weakness and try to ramp it up by putting their hands on me, slapping my drink, spitting or something else dumb ie.. throwing a haymaker punch at my head. It has always turned out bad for me if I step it up to the next level and let my hands go. The cops will inevitably be called, and since I won't swing first I'm not going to jail, but I will get kicked out or I should have known better or why did I do that he was just drunk you do it for a living etc.. just stupid stuff.. its never a win for me..you don't get a pat on the back for kicking a guy in a wheel chair.. nor do you get cool points for dropping a drunk bar dude when you have spent the last ten years honing your craft. Everybody looks at you like your the A hole..

Anyway getting back on point with my team mates and the girls. I remember seeing those chics, laughing, giggling, smiling it up, seeing the little white ring on their finger where they had taken their band off, etc.. just having a good old time while their husband was probably at home asleep and completely ignorant to what was going on and thinking to myself what evil people. I imagined how pissed I would be if I were the one playing the part of the fool and how (for lack of a better word) dirty these biziches were to be out here doing this. I'm a believer in Karma so I never put myself out there to give it a chance to bite me in the ass as retribution for my own actions. 

I also remember my team mates laughing and giggling it up on the bus or plane back.. bragging about their exploits one minute and disembarking and calling their wives, girl friends telling them they will be home in 20 minutes or whatever and I love you, fights went well, it was boring, hung out with the guys the whole time, coach would not let us leave the hotel etc... lies, lies, lies.. I just thought to myself wow...this is why I'm not really friends with these dudes cause I can't share in that type of comradery. But being from GA. we have a motto "none of my business, and I aint getting involved" I also never put myself in a position to get questioned by somebody elses spouse as word was out that I was kind of a loner. I avoided BBQ's and such at their houses for fear of somebodies wife saying how was the trip to XXXXX, what did you guys do.. and I say something that does not match up with whatever lie was told and now I'm a snitch. 

In the military (10 year Marine Corps vet here), it was also ever present. You go on deployment to all these cool places and some not so cool places and the motto is "what happens on deployment stays on deployment" even my Master Guns had girlfriends in practically every country we deployed to regularly and a wife and 2 kids at home. Again I was kind of a square in that I would usually stay on base, or at camp and read, work out, write letters or train as best I could- stretching, shadow boxing etc. I filled my time with so much other stuff that I never gave the opportunity to act stupid a chance.. Again we would come back get off the bird, and Guns wife would run up and hug him and they would be all chummy and he would say how horrible the deployment was, could not leave base, it rained, it was miserable, etc. etc.. again I was like wow..how do you do that..How is it that you don't just burst into flames as soon as you open your mouth.. 

So the opportunity was always there, *but* my background on cheating and its consequences came from my dad. Who was a serial cheater as best I can tell, I remember my Ma finding out and being devastated, the fighting, the raising hell, the house getting turned upside down, them divorcing when I was 9.. him kidnapping me and taking me from Ga. to Mo. Living with him and his new GF, who he then cheated on again and it was all the same hell in a different house.. Until I was finally snatched up by relatives who took me back to my Ma two years later.. Me and her had a lot of talks, about him, what he did etc. she was always very frank with me and treated me like an adult even though most of what was said was probably to heavy for a kid my age healthily absorb at the time, and created a rock solid but sometimes over the top set of values (and no my Ma never touched me in a way that made me feel funny). The experience burned into me how much hurt it causes.. Nobody likes to see their Ma cry, it hurts you too.. especially when your a kid, your Mom is one of your hero's, she is there for you so it's odd to see her devastated and as a kid you can't or don't know how to make her feel better. It makes you resent your father, makes you hate him, despise him and sets you upon a path to consciously choose to grow up and be 'nothing like him'. It creates a somewhat bent moral compass based on hate for one parent. 

Ok background over..

As to would I cheat now if the opportunity presented itself post D day.. No way.. Angry as I might be or hateful as I might be.. I know even more now how my mom felt back when I was 11-12. I now have a frame of reference for the hurt that I saw back then; I have felt it too and it sucks.. Also if I were to go about that path it would a) make me like him (dad) b) probably give her (WS) some twisted sense of justification for her actions c) put me in a position where I no longer hold the moral high ground d) probably hurt me more than anyone else and lastly and most importantly make me put my wifes face to my moms pain.. I know how much it hurts and I am sure it would still devastate her in spite of what she has done; which I for some reason feel is undeserved; eye for an eye does not apply.. Will I chastise her for her actions, Yes.. am I a dizik most of the time now, Yes.. Am I cold and distant, Yes.. Would I beat the hell out of someone who threatened her safety.. Yes.. Would I still protect her.. Yes.. Do I still secretly love her but am either afraid too show it or feel that she does not deserve to see it.. Yes. or maybe all of my hurt shows her that I do love her, as you can't be hurt by what you don't care about.

But do I really want her to feel that kind of betrayal and hurt, the soul wrenching, turn your world upside down agony or as bad as me on the inside.. Not really... in spite of all that is going on and my anger I still have some compassion.. two wrongs don't make a right and would only stir the pot and probably make me think of myself as my own father. 

Do I have some deep seated issues that would probably make a counselor recommend me for commitment... maybe.. but I'll never go and see a head doctor so its a mute point.. I'm loyal at least I can say that..


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Bandit said:


> Do I have some deep seated issues that would probably make a counselor recommend me for commitment... maybe.. *but I'll never go and see a head doctor so its a mute point*


And how has that work for ya 3 years later?


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

morituri said:


> And how has that work for ya 3 years later?


Man, (I'm annoyed).. The last thing I need is to sit on a couch with some quack, who was probably giving hand jobs at the local gay jack shack to pay his way through quackery school while I was in the Marine Corps. I don't need a guy with lotiony hands and a legal tablet judging my every life choice or trying to get me to relive every second that I'm trying to forget.. I'll pass.. If I wanted to do that I'm sure I could drink a 1/5th, go to dudes facebook page where he still has pictures up of them together and accomplish just as much screaming at the wall and storming around the house. Or God forbid its a lady man hating counselor who sides with her.. I read other posts here where couples went to a counselor and the counselor ended up jumping the victims shizit for being "overly angry or upset".. Your GD right I'm angry and I have every right to be.. I did not cause this so if I want to stand up pull what's left of my hair out, scream and thump my chest,, then I damn well should be allowed too..


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Bandit, the answer to your questions are as simple as you want them to be or as complex as you make them. If you want to stay in a miserable situation, with no sex and no trust and no love, then IT IS YOUR CHOICE. What she did with the OM is past tense, and you either live with it or not. If you have seen any of my posts, you know that my wife cheated, too, and I chose divorce. It had nothing to do with what she did or didn't do, post affair. It was and is all about me, and what I can live with. I guess I know myself well enough to realize that I could never feel the same amount of love and trust in her that I did before, and that fact alone is a dealbreaker for me. My wife has gone to the wall, literally, to show remorse for her betrayal, how much she loves me, and how much she wants to R, (even to the point of suicide) but it isn't enough, and never will be. You need to man-up and make a decision. Do what is best for you, forget about her needs, for now, and make something happen.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Dude I'm a Marine , too, but right now you are acting like a pu**y. Whining about how life sucks for you, and being all dramatic and ****. Get your ass in gear, dump the cheating cow, and find somebody else. There are MILLIONS of good women out ther.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Yeah there are good and bad counselors out there no doubt about that and that is why people should check them out first before agreeing to seeing them. No offense but to do a general indictment of all of them, like you have, is like someone indicting all professional fighters as a bunch of sc*[email protected] who would do humanity a favor by killing themselves off, totally wrong and totally outrageous.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

TCx said:


> Does this mean that you feel unmanned?


Do I feel like a biztch? Yes or that my masculinity has been somehow stripped from me or that I am in a way a lesser man now.. Yes... Yes I do.. Did another bull roam into my pasture and lay some pipe.. yes.. For a guy like me who has in many ways always considered himself to be a manly man does my confidence feel like it is pretty well shot to hell.. Yeah I suppose so...I even train kinda half hearted now... 



TCx said:


> Does this mean you hate her for lying?



I just can't wrap my mind around it..hate... man what a word that is..IDK.. I don't hate her, her actions yes, the way she made me feel yes... but if I hated her I don't think it would hurt..



TCx said:


> ... or that you can't believe her even when she does say that she loves you?


Lie once, lie again, where does the truth start and the next lie end..



TCx said:


> Do you believe that she no longer loves you?


I'm sure she still loves me even in spite of what I have become.



TCx said:


> Or is it that you don't love her?


I do lest I would not be here, crying like a 5 year old with a skint knee to strangers..



TCx said:


> It was you, but it was also her. You already know this.



I did nothing wrong. I did not choose to go out laying pipe with someone else.. It was not me... She made a choice.. She could not be blamed if I went out and decided to rob a bank, no more than it would be her fault if I got all depressed drunk, decided to drive and ended up killing somebody.. I made a choice.. 





TCx said:


> Why do you stay?


 Hope



TCx said:


> Do you still love your wife?


 Yes, you don't stop loving somebody because they hurt you.. You can no more do this than to stop loving one of your kids.. Thats different you say.. their family.. well so is the person that you spent the last 15 years with and had some of the best memories of your life with.. As I sit here I can't think of any memories that don't have her there...



TCx said:


> Are you afraid to leave?


 Yes



TCx said:


> Do you want to leave but feel trapped by finances?


 a little but I have money and don't want to lose half, but that's a BS reason I suppose, just scared I suppose that maybe I quit to early..




TCx said:


> Do you *want* to hold onto that hurt?


 No choice there



TCx said:


> Are you getting off on holding all of the power?


 Not really it makes me sick inside.. just rots me from the inside out...



TCx said:


> Do you want to prove to yourself that it wasn't your fault and that if you hold onto the hurt and tell her to 'get off me', she'll cheat again and prove to you just how much of a kunt she really is?


Then that would be another choice and would probably justify a lot in my mind..



TCx said:


> Maybe you really do want to leave but you can't bear the thought of being the one to leave, or you don't want to face the consequences?


This is very true, leaving is to let go of all hope..



TCx said:


> Maybe you want to alienate her enough so that she'll get fed up and do it for you?



That would be easier, it would hurt, and I guess give me more reason to spite the next woman..



TCx said:


> Maybe you just want to hurt her the way that she hurt you?



Yes and No... I want her to be hurt because she hurt me, not to feel that same kind of hurt..



TCx said:


> What does your wife think about these videos that play through your head?


I don't bring them up, I can't, I don't want to feel that or hear more lies... 



TCx said:


> Or have you discussed them with her at any time other than when you were angry at her?



As stated I keep them to myself and let them play me to sleep at night.. I can't even begin to talk about them or let them out of my head without my blood starting to boil..I fear talking about them and it creates sadness for everybody..




TCx said:


> Anyways, at this point it is you that is doing the lying. Your wife may truly love you and she may not. But by holding onto this grudge you will never know and you will never fix your marriage. Of course, she may view you as a meal ticket and you are letting her take advantage of you. Which is it?



Not a meal ticket, she asked to go last year and I talked her out of it.. and I don't know why.. I didnt want to deal with the loss..



TCx said:


> Is she trying to make amends or isn't she? What does your gut say? Or, has she tried to make amends in the past but that lessened off when you stopped being so angry at her and did that retrigger your anger and make her step back up again?



She did and has all but stopped, as I was usually non receptive and or would get up and leave as it put me back into that place.. She wanted to talk about it, let me see her email and all that but I can't talk about it for fear of exploding or being really hurt reliving all that again and I should not have to go through her email.. Why is it that I must now make babysitting her a priority in my life.. I told her to keep her damn email passwords and take her phone and stuff it where the sun don't shine. It hurts me to think that I would have to snoop (because of why am doing it.. cause she banged some other dude in my house no less) and what if I found something else, some innocent fact she forgot, or IDK.. I know my tendency to obsess and if I snoop I'm only setting myself up to try and visualize every second they had together in the past..



TCx said:


> You have a hard choice to make and you're not making it. What are you running from?



Running from... regret.. I don't want to regret my decision..


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Bandit, just read your story. I have high respect for you for the way you carry yourself. The feelings you have, they are the emasculating part of the affair and it does suck.

But as they say, Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

What you did until now did not work for you. Why not try some other way instead of retreating into your shell?

Have you shared your story here? I think sharing it would give us a better view on things.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

OK, Bandit, you were cheated on, it sucks and you can't get over the mind movies. What she did with the OM is have sex, so she and he probably did what everyone else does when they have sex. Big Deal. What is bothering you most is the betrayal of her vows. THIS is something you CAN do something about. If you can't get over the betrayal, then you walk. Staying in a marriage for the reasons that you are doing it, is plain stupid and you don't seem to be a stupid person. Regardless of what else happens, the AFFAir DID happen. No amount of wishing or hope will make it go away, or will lessen the feelings of betrayal and loss of love and intimacy. You know yourself best, and probably habve a good idea of whether or not you can overcome these issues. Where you are wrong, is dragging it out. There are two choices, try to recover, which will take many years and much pain and work and suffering, or get free and enjoy life with a truly good woman, because , right now your wife isn't one.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

When you signed on that marriage license, you were acknowledging that half of everything you would make would be hers and vice versa. You made yourself bound under the marriage laws of the land. You could have sought legal advice regarding a post-nuptual agreement 3 years ago to help mitigate the financial loss after a divorce. And don't forget, you can still loose half of your assets if she chooses to divorce you, something very likely to happen if your marital situation doesn't improve. Not saying all of this to bring you down but so you cam do some more soul searching and hopefully come to a decision that you can live with.


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

Dude I was you. I can't tell you how but letting go will set you free. I think I looked at it as if I cared then they won. I can't say I am the same person anymore but it has its benefits. Now I am always happy because nothing matters if that makes sense. Nothing effects me I just move on. Irresponsible confidence is what I call it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Bandit said:


> Lie once, lie again, where does the truth start and the next lie end..


Understandable.



Bandit said:


> I'm sure she still loves me even in spite of what I have become.


So give her a chance. That's not to say that you need to trust her right away, just that you need to talk to her. And what have you become? This statement, alone, tells me that you "hate" yourself for doing this to yourself and to her.



Bandit said:


> I did nothing wrong. I did not choose to go out laying pipe with someone else.. It was not me... She made a choice.. She could not be blamed if I went out and decided to rob a bank, no more than it would be her fault if I got all depressed drunk, decided to drive and ended up killing somebody.. I made a choice..


This is so selfish it's painful to read. 



Bandit said:


> Yes, you don't stop loving somebody because they hurt you.. You can no more do this than to stop loving one of your kids.. Thats different you say.. their family.. well so is the person that you spent the last 15 years with and had some of the best memories of your life with.. As I sit here I can't think of any memories that don't have her there...


So is that worth holding onto? Sounds like you want to try.



Bandit said:


> Yes and No... I want her to be hurt because she hurt me, not to feel that same kind of hurt..


IMHO, what you are doing is abusive. Because you can't heal yourself you have dragged this out for years.

Yeah, your wife 'laid pipe' and her betrayal was that she gave someone else love that she should have reserved for you and then lied about it.

To me, it sounds like you are refusing her your love and you are keeping her chained to you. How long did her A last? How long have you been doing this to her? How long have you lied to her?



Bandit said:


> I don't bring them up, I can't, I don't want to feel that or hear more lies...
> 
> As stated I keep them to myself and let them play me to sleep at night.. I can't even begin to talk about them or let them out of my head without my blood starting to boil..I fear talking about them and it creates sadness for everybody..


And yet not talking about them to her is also killing you. You're holding a grudge and you're not letting it out.

I am really sorry that you are where you are but you need help and the only person that can get you started on the right path is you. Get Counseling. Talk to your wife. Get some antidepressants and stop feeling unmanly about needing help.

You do.

You call head shrinkers/counselors 'gay' because all they do is talk. It is not weak or unmanly to let someone see inside of your head. That's natural because when we all think that seeing a head shrinker is weak and that it means that there is something wrong with us; "I am not crazy". No, you're not crazy, you're just not coping and you need some help.



Bandit said:


> Not a meal ticket, she asked to go last year and I talked her out of it.. and I don't know why.. I didnt want to deal with the loss..


You have trouble letting go mate. You have a decision to make. Do you want your wife to go or do you want your hurt to go? If you're not sure which and you are afraid to regret your choice of letting her go then do everything you can to make it work before you pull the trigger and put her out of your misery.



Bandit said:


> She did and has all but stopped, as I was usually non receptive and or would get up and leave as it put me back into that place.. She wanted to talk about it, let me see her email and all that but I can't talk about it for fear of exploding or being really hurt reliving all that again and I should not have to go through her email.. Why is it that I must now make babysitting her a priority in my life..


You don't have to babysit her. But you asked her to stay which means you made a contract with her telling her that you wanted to be with her and you wanted to work it out.

But by not talking this through with your W and by not yelling at her and getting the emotional release and by not giving her the opportunity to help you fix this, you are making the same choice that a cheater makes. (And I'm sure that every BS on TAM is going to disagree with this) You are lying to your wife (a lie by omission is still a lie) and you are choosing not to end your relationship with them because you are too afraid to end your relationship to pursue someone else. 

And yet you still love her, you say that you do, and you want her to feel your hurt because she hurt you. So let her feel it but don't be passive aggressive about it; you are better than that! Yes, she wronged you years ago and you have been wronging her ever since because you won't open up.

Talk to your wife dude. 

I'd suggest that you start by telling her that, "I really need to talk to you. I'm really sorry for the way that I've treated you and I want to talk to you about it. But before I do, I need to warn you that I am still hurting about the affair and there is a lot of emotion there. I don't hate you but I am having trouble sorting through my thoughts. In talking about it, I am going to get very angry and probably say some really hurtful things and I want to tell you, in advance, that I'm sorry for saying them. I *am* going to get carried away. I don't want to cause you more pain so please forgive me. If I start to get really abusive please black card me or whatever, but I need you not to defend yourself from me. I need you to listen first and then, when I'm done I want to find a way for us to work together to see if we can still be together. The reason that I'm so distant is...."

And if you unload into your W it is likely that you are going to destroy her emotionally and all of that hurt that she felt years ago is going to come flooding back and she will look at you and want to die. But that will get the two of you talking and, hopefully, healing.

Of course, she might also already be so desensitized to you now to the point that she might respond with anger.

If you can't face this fear, then you really are the reason that your marriage is over. It's not her fault anymore, it's your fear and your lack of trust in your wife.

And if she's stopped trying with you then you've pushed her away to the point where another A is likely and I wouldn't blame her one bit at this point; seriously, I wouldn't (and again, I'm sure that every BS will disagree with this). You asked her to stay but you wont give her the respect or trust that you demand from her. yes, it has to be earned but it sounds like she tried to and it even sounds like she got some from you.

It sounds like, even though she made a terrible choice, she's tried to make amends. You've made a terrible choice by not talking to your wife about this; don't you think it's time to try to fix it? If you can't do this then you are going to carry this inability to open up to your next relationship and the same might happen again.

IMHO, you need to fix you before you move on.



Bandit said:


> I told her to keep her damn email passwords and take her phone and stuff it where the sun don't shine. It hurts me to think that I would have to snoop (because of why am doing it.. cause she banged some other dude in my house no less) and what if I found something else, some innocent fact she forgot, or IDK.. I know my tendency to obsess and if I snoop I'm only setting myself up to try and visualize every second they had together in the past..


See, I think this is remarkably mature.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Last thought before I head to bed. Do you remember what your wedding vows were? If not, here are some common examples:

Traditional Wedding Vows - Free Samples of Traditional Wedding Vows

She broke her vow to you but that doesn't release you from your vow to her. Those vows are taken individually.

So thinking that just because she broke her vows, it's okay for you to as well is wrong. That's like saying that because she had an affair, so can you.

Talk to your wife. Get counseling.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Whats up?
It seems you have never let your military and your professional career and those evil curcumstances (cheating) define who you want to be. Yet your personal life and your wifes crap defines as a man in an healthy marriage. Having been there I get it!

I have seen enough porno and not having married a virgin, I have a different out look. I too have the mind movies. But my mind movies are two people having this clumbsy on the fly/on the run "thing". I am #1, I'm the better lover, I may not be bigger but I' better. The sh!t my wife had was a joke IMHO!

Its an ego I have that keeps me going. I will never be 2nd choice, my fWW knows the deal and it is her choice to be with the best, no matter how jacked up I can be during the triggers...she wants the best.

Do not 2nd guess your self you are the better man for your wife. She took it on the run and it got her no were. You my friend are the better man, the better lover, and are confident and strong enough to commit to this contract of marriage, and with that you need to man up and commit to the intamacy that is a must for a healthy marraige.

Sorry bro, thats the deal...no matter how disgusting it may seem, it is my thinking that once you take that 1st sip, I can only hope that it gets easier for you. It sounds like you love her and want this thing to work, and with that, do the work to make it healthier.

Its not dirty, its your wife...maybe she was a virgin, maybe she wasn't. How pure was she when you met her? The fact is if you want this marriage then its all about forgiveness. Do you know what you are forgiving her for? Has she been open and transparent? My point is sh!t or get off the pot. Your kids need a healthy role model on how a marriage works. (unlike grandpa's example)

Bottom line is forgiveness and taking the steps to make this marriage work.




Or move on, let her cry in front of the kid and be a better father who can find happiness..instead of grandpa who created a family linage of sorrow!

Teach your kid how to have a healthy relationship, with or with out your wife. I rap my mind around my wifes infidelity by knowing that is her crap to deal with, not mine. If she wants to be with the best then she can do the heavy lifting, and with that heavy lifting comes rewards from me.

Sorry for the rant man, no mater how you slice it this crap is tough. I hope my perspective can help in some small way. Its been 2 years, d-day was Feb. 12 '10 and I'm triggering big time, but I know what I want.........


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

TCx said:


> She broke her vow to you but that doesn't release you from your vow to her. Those vows are taken individually.


Of course it releases him.


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## SadLovingHusband (Apr 21, 2011)

I have also had issues with letting go of the mind movies. Someone mentioned PTSD/PISD, and I think I have gone through that as well. When I found out that my wife had cheated, I think I had a mild panic attack, and for the last year or so, have had varying levels of PTSD. After I found out she had cheated, I was initially repulsed by her, and we had no physical contact for a month and a half. I was very angry and hurt and physically wanted nothing to do with her. Then one day, the hysterical bonding took hold and we had sex daily for about 3 weeks. For me, it wasn't as much about reclaiming my W, as it was trying to take away the pain. It was like I was taking uppers and downers. 

We went to MC and I eventually agreed to move back home, but it was a daily struggle to cope with the mind movies and looking at her and seeing someone who chose to be with other men while she was married to me. My mind struggled and continues to struggle with dealing with those thoughts and images. I went through a phase where my mind tried to convince itself that it was a turn-on for her to be with another man. That somehow I liked the idea. It was my brain's desperate way of trying to take away the pain. How F'd up is that? I still struggle with the mind movies and the thoughts of her being so intimate with two other men, but it is not a daily struggle anymore. There are triggers that come about, but I work through them. She knows that I still struggle with things, and she does whatever she can to help, but in the end, it's my brain and my images that I need to move forward from.

It's always going to be difficult knowing that she left our home to travel 3 hours to see another man. The whole time while she was driving, looking forward to him touching her. That at the time, she wanted little to nothing to do with having sex with me, but after a few drinks and some attention from another guy, she was dropping her panties and on her back. 

I try to not think about it, and I know in the end, if I want to make things work with her, that I need to move forward. Forgive not forget. She was young and weak and made huge mistakes. I can accept her apologies and remorse and move forward, or I can leave her and move on. I have made the choice to start over, to build a new marriage, so I need to remember that.

It's not easy, in fact some days, it's incredibly difficult to look at her and not ask her how she could do that to me. I can't imagine if I were still feeling the way that you do Bandit, that I wouldn't have left by now. I feel your pain, and if it was as intense as you write about with no clear end in sight, I would have walked away.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCx 
She broke her vow to you but that doesn't release you from your vow to her. Those vows are taken individually. 

Of course it releases him. 



How? releases him form what? his vow to his wife, which he still honers to a certain extent to this day,sorry but no, she crapped on him ok, I get that, if wants he can get a divorce and do what ever he wants,but until then he wont because he is a man of his word!!!!!
my take on reading all his posts is this..

He still loves her very deeply, he keeps on dishing it out to her and she keeps taking it, over and over (no not excusing what she did) and he is like "wow, I'm treating her like **** for years and shes still here,Why? is she sorry? does she still love me? maybe? because she's still here, and letting me treat her this way, why?" he is scared truly scared to show his love for her again, afraid to show that kind of vulnerabilty again.....

Bandit, you can have a better life with her or without her, but I'm gathering you want it with her...it's like you are in a corner scared to stay where you are and scared to come out swinging so to speak.....


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

hisfac, Your kidding us , right?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

the guy said:


> hisfac, Your kidding us , right?


hisfac is Arnold.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

SadLovingHusband said:


> It's not easy, in fact some days, it's incredibly difficult to look at her and not ask her how she could do that to me.


Why don't you ask her? And why don't you straight out ask her what you get in exchange for having to suffer from these flashes for the rest of your life? She should be able to answer, if she says that should all be self-evident then I think you should dump her.

Most people here would say that two men makes your wife a serial cheater, which would mean "not capable of remorse or empathy," as I recall one fellow saying. Probably worth thinking about.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

for myself, there was no intimacy afterwards.
every time we had sex, for some reason, i put myself out of it and it was like i was watching her and him together. 
often times i did feel sick to my stomach.
well, not too often, it was only once a month or less at times.
i finally had to decide to leave.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

You know Bandit I had much the same opinion about therapists and psychologists as you did. Well maybe not quiet as extreme but pretty condemning! 

I went to one and it confirmed all my worst fears .She was a therapist who talked about "spiritual intimacy" "Felt my pain" Yap Yap.. I didn't last long there!.

Next I was recommended a psychologist. A woman with a nice smile. 

After 50 mins talking and being questioned I needed the next day off! Talk about hitting you between the eyes with a 4x2.

It works if you are prepared to do the work.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

In my case I really had to look at it as an entirely new relationship. I had to learn to love her again because immediately after the affair I hated her more than I have ever hated anyone in my entire life. Post D-day I did everything I could to hurt her short of physical harm but I came damned close to that as well. But she took it all and really did do the heavy lifting. Even so she still had to earn my trust much like a stranger would but it was even harder because I would have trust a stranger more than her at the time. It's actually funny but since I started coming here to TAM I have often wondered why I actually gave her a second chance since I had always said I never would. Don't get me wrong, I am extremely happy that I did but it really was contrary to my nature at that time to do that.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

strugglinghusband said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by TCx
> She broke her vow to you but that doesn't release you from your vow to her. Those vows are taken individually.
> 
> ...


To love and honor. He loves her but he does not honor her with the respect that she deserves to talk to her and tell her the truth about these flashes in his head.




strugglinghusband said:


> my take on reading all his posts is this..
> 
> He still loves her very deeply...
> 
> Bandit, you can have a better life with her or without her, but I'm gathering you want it with her...it's like you are in a corner scared to stay where you are and scared to come out swinging so to speak.....


That's kinda my take too. Nothing wrong with being scared btw; this is some heavy shyt. I get the impression that he doesn't want to hurt her with the truth and yet he does want to forgive her either. And yet the title of this thread says that he wants to move past this and be happy again.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> She should be able to answer, if she says that should all be self-evident then I think you should dump her.


I don't agree with this. Everyone communicates differently and these two obviously don't know how to communicate. Setting a trigger phrase like this as a reason for dumping her is, IMHO, dangerous.

Maybe she does feel that it's self evident and maybe she's not thought it through yet. Talking with each other will help that.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> I don't agree with this. Everyone communicates differently and these two obviously don't know how to communicate. Setting a trigger phrase like this as a reason for dumping her is, IMHO, dangerous.
> 
> Maybe she does feel that it's self evident and maybe she's not thought it through yet. Talking with each other will help that.


Ok, then give her 24 hours to think it through. All I know is if I were going to voluntarily choose to do the PTSD agony-shuffle for the rest of my probably-shortened-due-to-stress-by-triggers life, I would want to know from the person who caused it why I should be going through with it, and she should be able to answer me quickly with something concrete that is of clear benefit to me. Might be she says because of her pot roast, but that would at least be an answer.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> Ok, then give her 24 hours to think it through. All I know is if I were going to voluntarily choose to do the PTSD agony-shuffle for the rest of my probably-shortened-due-to-stress-by-triggers life, I would want to know from the person who caused it why I should be going through with it, and she should be able to answer me quickly with something concrete that is of clear benefit to me. Might be she says because of her pot roast, but that would at least be an answer.


re: Pot roast - lol 

Though this strikes me as a distinctly masculine attitude. A reason for everything, logic, etc. Women, in my experience, are about emotion rather than logic. That's not to say that they aren't logical just that their emotions are a bigger motivator in their lives than logic.

I'm generalizing here but I'd expect her answer to be more along the lines of "Because I love you and I want it to work and because I'm sorry and I will do anything that I can to make it work".

I have a question for Bandit. Why do you love her? If you think back to the beginning, what was it about her that made you fall in love with her? And what were her reasons for falling in love with you? What, of those reasons, have changed?


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> re: Pot roast - lol
> 
> Though this strikes me as a distinctly masculine attitude. A reason for everything, logic, etc. Women, in my experience, are about emotion rather than logic. That's not to say that they aren't logical just that their emotions are a bigger motivator in their lives than logic.
> 
> I'm generalizing here but I'd expect her answer to be more along the lines of "Because I love you and I want it to work and because I'm sorry and I will do anything that I can to make it work".


Which would be a whitewash. I'd push on this one, if I were feeling these sorts of awful stabs on a regular basis. I'd say something along the lines of:

if I stay with you, I am going to suffer sharp twinges for the rest of my life due to what you did. Each one will mess up my heart and glands bit by bit, and on the balance I will not live as long as if I dumped you now and looked forward, lived for me, found someone new who didn't cause me that pain every time I touched her or looked at her. What's the payoff, what's so special about you such that I should make this sacrifice? What you get out of it is clear, now you tell me what I get out of it.

You might see these attitudes as gender-centered, but I can see any woman with self-respect asking the above of her cheating man, and we all know how many cowardly cheating men use the "I love you and I want it to work" whitewash.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

lascarx said:


> Which would be a whitewash. I'd push on this one, if I were feeling these sorts of awful stabs on a regular basis. I'd say something along the lines of:
> 
> if I stay with you, I am going to suffer sharp twinges for the rest of my life due to what you did. Each one will mess up my heart and glands bit by bit, and on the balance I will not live as long as if I dumped you now and looked forward, lived for me, found someone new who didn't cause me that pain every time I touched her or looked at her. What's the payoff, what's so special about you such that I should make this sacrifice? What you get out of it is clear, now you tell me what I get out of it.
> 
> You might see these attitudes as gender-centered, but I can see any woman with self-respect asking the above of her cheating man, and we all know how many cowardly cheating men use the "I love you and I want it to work" whitewash.


What is the right answer, then? What answer would you be looking for, what answer would make you feel better, what answer would be good enough to help you overcome the pain?

How can she begin to answer that question in any way, really? Aren't YOU the only one who truly knows what you get out of staying with her, and why?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

norajane said:


> What is the right answer, then? What answer would you be looking for, what answer would make you feel better, what answer would be good enough to help you overcome the pain?
> 
> How can she begin to answer that question in any way, really? Aren't YOU the only one who truly knows what you get out of staying with her, and why?


She could offer to take away some of the risks of being married to her. For example, an iron clad post nuptial agreement or a divorce in which she will refuse marital support and will give him sole custody of the kids but remains in a probationary committed relationship with him. If she's willing to assume more risk in the relationship, then he may reconsider his position.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

morituri said:


> She could offer to take away some of the risks of being married to her. For example, an iron clad post nuptial agreement or a divorce in which she will refuse marital support and will give him sole custody of the kids but remains in a probationary committed relationship with him. If she's willing to assume more risk in the relationship, then he may reconsider his position.


This is confusing to me. The right answer to "what do I get out of staying married to you after you cheated on me?" is...a divorce? a post-nup? it's about money? I thought it was about helping him to heal his pain?

How does that answer the question and take away the pain?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

norajane said:


> This is confusing to me. The right answer to "what do I get out of staying married to you after you cheated on me?" is...a divorce? a post-nup? it's about money? I thought it was about helping him to heal his pain?
> 
> How does that answer the question and take away the pain?


TRUST!

That is the dagger. Take away the dagger or at the very least dull the blade and the potential for future pain is lessened.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> TRUST!
> 
> That is the dagger. Take away the dagger or at the very least dull the blade and the potential for future pain is lessened.


So you're saying that offering him financial benefits would restore trust? Because that would be proof she's staying with him for reasons other than what she might get in a divorce? How would that make him trust that she wouldn't cheat again, and how would that make him feel less pain about her cheating in the first place, how would that lessen the mental movies?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> TRUST!
> 
> That is the dagger. Take away the dagger or at the very least dull the blade and the potential for future pain is lessened.


Holding a dagger to the WS' throat is your way of regaining trust? Please forgive me for this but that is the second most ridiculous thing I've ever read here.

You either trust them or you don't and if you don't then you need to make the commitment to try or, IMHO, you are just fooling yourself. Holding someone for ransom will not help them regain your trust. It will only give you a sense of power which, admittedly, might make you feel better or more secure.

But what you're proposing is blackmail and power mongering and, IMHO, it's only going to make the former WS more likely to be dishonest because they have so much more to lose, even if having another A never crosses their mind. It's not just the marriage that's at stake anymore, it's the kids, the house, it's everything.

What you are doing with this kind of clause is buying yourself an emotional slave because they are going to do just about anything to make sure that they don't lose it all.

If my spouse ever told me that these were the conditions for R, my immediate response would be, "seeya in court, enjoy the alimony" (and I'm the bread winner in the family so a post-nup would do me more good than it would her). I'm sorry, but I've seen so much talk of 'morality' on TAM and this just seems so amoral to me that it makes me retch.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

norajane said:


> So you're saying that offering him financial benefits would restore trust? Because that would be proof she's staying with him for reasons other than what she might get in a divorce? How would that make him trust that she wouldn't cheat again, and how would that make him feel less pain about her cheating in the first place, how would that lessen the mental movies?


Yes. Marriage does convey benefits that a cheater would receive if he/she were to divorce - half of all the assets, spousal support and child support. If the unfaithful spouse were to give away some or all of these benefits, that action would greatly enhanced the betrayed spouse's efforts to trust once more.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

norajane said:


> So you're saying that offering him financial benefits would restore trust? Because that would be proof she's staying with him for reasons other than what she might get in a divorce? How would that make him trust that she wouldn't cheat again, and how would that make him feel less pain about her cheating in the first place, how would that lessen the mental movies?


There is NOTHING you can do about mental movies. They will happen and it only gets better over time and with complete honesty.

As to the trust issue, you can't understand that the hardest thing to do is trust someone after they've stabbed you in the back? Wouldn't you want to know that if it happened again not only would the consequences be so severe that the cheater would think twice, three, a hundred times before doing it again but the BS would have that much less to deal with in the event it does happen again. How many times have we read on here that a WS not only destroys the BS's soul but rakes them over the coals in an ensuing divorce?

If the idea of a post-nup scares the hell out of a cheater then they either really weren't remorseful or they truly aren't sure they won't do it again. Either way means a divorce is the only reasonable option. It's the same thought process as asking for a polygraph if you do not believe the cheater is being completely honest. If they don't agree to it you generally have your answer.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Beowulf said:


> There is NOTHING you can do about mental movies. They will happen and it only gets better over time and with complete honesty.
> 
> As to the trust issue, you can't understand that the hardest thing to do is trust someone after they've stabbed you in the back? Wouldn't you want to know that if it happened again not only would the consequences be so severe that the cheater would think twice, three, a hundred times before doing it again but the BS would have that much less to deal with in the event it does happen again. How many times have we read on here that a WS not only destroys the BS's soul but rakes them over the coals in an ensuing divorce?
> 
> If the idea of a post-nup scares the hell out of a cheater then they either really weren't remorseful or they truly aren't sure they won't do it again. Either way means a divorce is the only reasonable option. It's the same thought process as asking for a polygraph if you do not believe the cheater is being completely honest. If they don't agree to it you generally have your answer.


As someone who has been betrayed, money and financial benefits would not have made me feel better or be any kind of answer to why I would stay. That is actually the LAST thing that would ease my mind or rebuild trust or keep me in the relationship, for me. And I make twice as much as my OH. 

Maybe that's a male/female difference.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

norajane said:


> What is the right answer, then? What answer would you be looking for, what answer would make you feel better, what answer would be good enough to help you overcome the pain?
> 
> How can she begin to answer that question in any way, really?


She would answer the question by thinking it over, and answering what she really thought. It's not that hard a question if you view it in terms of the cheater answering honestly what she makes of it and not what she hopes the betrayed will buy into. It's not about the answer that would best comfort me, were I the betrayed one here. It's about her truth in her head, said with her own courage, her own conviction and her own willingness to accept that it might indeed not be the "right" answer to convince me.

As for overcoming this particular form of pain, I don't know if it can really be overcome, and since I don't have it, I guess I won't ever know. But if I were suffering on the level that some of these folks apparently are, I would definitely present the question.




norajane said:


> Aren't YOU the only one who truly knows what you get out of staying with her, and why?


Now that's just plain dumb. You get the revelation that your mate is a cheater and you're supposed to stop there and assume your mate has nothing more to reveal, perhaps something that might convince you if you're unconvinced? Go through thread after thread and you'll see the betrayed is in shock, the betrayed doesn't know which way is up and which way is down, etc. In other words, that YOU in your sentence might be the one who has the least idea of why to stay. I can't say I give much credit to what goes on in a wayward's conscience, but I would assume that if I were one, who wanted to reconcile, one of the first things I would do is step up to the plate, take the lead and both show and tell my truly intended what I would do to get her out of the pit of her pain. If her problem is triggers and mind movies, then it's my cart to pull to get them gone. I might not ever succeed 100%, but it would be my duty and mine alone until the day I fell off the perch.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> I'm sorry, but I've seen so much talk of 'morality' on TAM and this just seems so amoral to me that it makes me retch.


Friend, cheating makes me feel the same way. As I mentioned elsewhere, the excitement of cheating strikes me about the same as the excitement some people get out of cutting up live bugs.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Bandit, you can have a better life with her or without her, but I'm gathering you want it with her...it's like you are in a corner scared to stay where you are and scared to come out swinging so to speak.....

I have a question for Bandit. Why do you love her? If you think back to the beginning, what was it about her that made you fall in love with her? And what were her reasons for falling in love with you? What, of those reasons, have changed?
This post probably won't be all that detailed as I'm on TAM on the down low and I'm at home at the moment.. Most of my detailed posts are done at work, without fear of having the WS ask me what I'm typing.. Ok.. quickly.. probably true to the person who said I'm stuck on stupid or "are in a corner scared to stay where you are and scared to come out swinging so to speak". Reasoning, to stay holed up is to for the most part a much safer option and to come out swinging is not necessarily possible as it's not a one sided battle where I can bludgeon my opponent into submission without extreme risk to self. The come out swinging option would mean that I would have to give of myself as well "trust" , as somebody else mentioned.. Which is to say the least; extremely difficult. Additionally it would mean that I would have to go head to head once again with all that BS and the tears, probably on both sides. Which as I think about it now would probably annoy me to see her cry as she really has no right too.. crying (from my experience) is in many cases when used by a female a sympathy mechanism... 
I have a question for Bandit. Why do you love her? If you think back to the beginning, what was it about her that made you fall in love with her? And what were her reasons for falling in love with you? What, of those reasons, have changed?

To whomever wrote that... 
Why do I love her? Thats a deep question; which the most honest answer is 'just because'.. why do you love your dog, your kids etc.. love is probably the one thing that defies reason more than anything else.. because of our long history, because of all the good that once was, because of how we have grown together, because we WERE always there for each other etc.. sound cliché but not really sure how to answer that question. 
If you think back to the beginning, what was it about her that made you fall in love with her?
She was the Yin to my Yang.. We were/are polar opposites and served to balance each other out in basically every aspect of life. We complimented each other, my strengths were her weaknesses, and vice versa.. 
And what were her reasons for falling in love with you? 
I once asked this long ago and was told I was strong, honest, funny and made her feel safe. 
What, of those reasons, have changed? Well I would say I'm probably not that honest anymore (I don't lie blatantly) but I lie by omission by not bringing all this stuff up and pretty much stuff it down inside and deal with it as best I can.. My humor (the funny me) is fair well been shot to hell as well, can't remember the last time I laughed or much less did anything fun or funny so to speak.. I don't know.. when your 'well' that stuff just comes naturally... when your strung out (matters of the heart) and upset it's too much of a chore to pretend to be happy in order to be funny as well.. sorry if these answers are a bit all over the place but I'm typing quickly and from the hip whilst she is outside doing yard stuff...


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Bandit said:


> The come out swinging option would mean that I would have to give of myself as well "trust" , as somebody else mentioned.. Which is to say the least; extremely difficult. Additionally it would mean that I would have to go head to head once again with all that BS and the tears, probably on both sides. Which as I think about it now would probably annoy me to see her cry as she really has no right too.. crying (from my experience) is in many cases when used by a female a sympathy mechanism...


Yeah, she's broken your trust so you have trouble trusting the motive behind her tears.



Bandit said:


> What, of those reasons, have changed? Well I would say I'm probably not that honest anymore (I don't lie blatantly) but I lie by omission by not bringing all this stuff up and pretty much stuff it down inside and deal with it as best I can.. My humor (the funny me) is fair well been shot to hell as well, can't remember the last time I laughed or much less did anything fun or funny so to speak.. I don't know.. when your 'well' that stuff just comes naturally... when your strung out (matters of the heart) and upset it's too much of a chore to pretend to be happy in order to be funny as well.. sorry if these answers are a bit all over the place but I'm typing quickly and from the hip whilst she is outside doing yard stuff...


Don't apologize. These all seem like they are genuine answers; good on you for owning them.

So, if she loved you because you were funny, safe and strong, that means that two of the things that she loved you for are no longer there? ie - are you still safe and are you still funny? Do you think that lessens her love for you? Does that scare you?

As for why you love her, I asked that because that was one of the first questions that our MC asked us. My W had a ready answer, just like your W. For me, I stumbled and said something similar to you "um, because I did". It bothered me that my W knew exactly why she loved me and I didn't so I took that question away and thought about it. It sounds like you did a better job than I did.

Betrayal aside, is she still the yin to your yang? I wonder what she would say if you told her the answer to this question. What would her reaction be? Positive, negative or dismissive? 

You also said that you don't want to feel sympathy for her; because she doesn't deserve it; fair enough. But do you think that the reason that she would cry would be because she'd by empathizing with you? Do you think that she'd cry because she knew that it's killing her that she hurt you or do you think that it would just be to deflect your anger away because she's just so bored of your anger at her? 

Do you honestly think her tears would not be genuine? I understand that you don't trust her that much anymore, but I'm really curious to know what you think.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> I might not ever succeed 100%, but it would be my duty and mine alone until the day I fell off the perch.


I was with you right up until here. IMHO, there comes a point where the BS has to let go of their sense of betrayal and actually work on the marriage too. Just because the BS was betrayed doesn't mean that they get to brow beat their new emotional slave.

I'm sorry, but putting it on the WS forever gives the BS the one thing that they absolutely must not have; security in the perception that they are a martyr. IMHO, one day, the BS has to stop saying "me" and has to start saying "us" again. At exactly what point in the process that day comes, I have no idea; it will differ for every couple.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

TCx, that day comes when the BS can completely forgive the wayward, with or with them there is a degree of forgiveness that helps the betrayed move on.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> I was with you right up until here. IMHO, there comes a point where the BS has to let go of their sense of betrayal and actually work on the marriage too. Just because the BS was betrayed doesn't mean that they get to brow beat their new emotional slave.
> 
> I'm sorry, but putting it on the WS forever gives the BS the one thing that they absolutely must not have; security in the perception that they are a martyr. IMHO, one day, the BS has to stop saying "me" and has to start saying "us" again. At exactly what point in the process that day comes, I have no idea; it will differ for every couple.


Friend, you don't get it. It's not about some general sense of betrayal and martyrdom-perception. We were talking here about post-traumatic triggers and mental movies in particular. If the one I love gets them for the rest of her life because of some bad thing I did wrong, that one's on me. Until one of us dies or she walks away. You can't just distance yourself from something like that and say get over it. You do what is right. The BS can be saying "us" from day one, but that does not free the WS from the responsibility to put right what was damaged, maybe over and over again. Sometimes the extent of damage is open to interpretation, but in the case of this sort it is not.

Try this one on: it would be the same as if the triggers came because of violence-trauma. Let's say you have a wife-beater who gets Jesus-fever and repents, stops beating his wife. She keeps on trauma-triggering about it, can't quit. Gets flashbacks of him using his fists. That man has to do right and it's on him to do his damnedest to give her succor until he croaks. I'm guessing for the infidelity-trigger-prone, that the pain is similar and very lasting.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> Holding a dagger to the WS' throat is your way of regaining trust? Please forgive me for this but that is the second most ridiculous thing I've ever read here.
> 
> *If you read my post you would see that I was talking about talking away the sting of being betrayed yet again by a spouse - not holding a dagger to the throat of a wayward.
> *
> ...


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

the guy said:


> TCx, that day comes when the BS can completely forgive the wayward, with or with them there is a degree of forgiveness that helps the betrayed move on.


Correct. And is that never going to happen while the BS chokes on the hurt and throws his W off of him saying, "get off me!" ?

The OP asked how to get past this. Right now he's doing nothing even though his OH is [according to him] trying. But you can only try for so long before the rejection eats at you and consumes your will to live.

It's on him now. He needs to take that next step, not her. Holding onto the hurt and beating her with it, and not even having the decency to tell her why is, IMHO, abusive.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> And they won't lose it all if they simply DON'T CHEAT. I'm wondering how hard being faithful is for some people. Bottom line is if you can't stay faithful to your spouse you shouldn't stay married. If you can then the post-nup never comes into play.


Let me ask you this a different way. Do you really want to stay with someone who will only stay faithful because they are afraid to lose everything?



Beowulf said:


> So if your wife said the only way she could trust you again is to have you sign a post-nup in which you guarantee your fidelity you would say "seeya in court?"


A post-nup doesn't guarantee fidelity. It levies penalties against a WS *if they get caught*. Sure, it might act as a deterrent to some but holding gun to someone's head is just holding them under duress. That might be a good mental cue for some; it doesn't work for me. I would not consider asking my W for a post-nup that levied penalties and I can't ever imagine seeking them if she cheated on me.



Beowulf said:


> I can tell you for a fact that during reconciliation if I had asked for a post-nup my wife would have signed one in a nanosecond.


And would you have taken that as a sign of genuine commitment or as a sign of self-inflicted guilt? Given that you didn't trust her you'd never know her motives. You could convince yourself "it doesn't matter what her motives were" but it really does.

So I ask you, if it was just out of self loathing and guilt that she signed it, would that be okay with you? Or would you want it to be something more genuine.



Beowulf said:


> She realized that she breached the moral and ethical contract and she needed to prove her intentions to be faithful. I'm not sure what all the outrage is all about here. A post-nup is simply another type of contract. After all, the original marriage contract was broken and made null and void. A second contract just seems fair given all that occurs after an affair.


That depends entirely on the post-nup. There was one WS that posted that her BH wanted a clause that promised that she'd pay him something to the tune of $20K, plus full custody, all financial assets, etc etc etc. In that thread, there were many BS' that said "don't sign it!". And I'm sorry, but one's ability to stay faithful does not speak to their ability to be a good parent and I view someone who'd even consider this kind of clause to be insecure and a power monger. And I wouldn't want my children being raised by someone who would even consider such a thing as reasonable.

And when it comes to the assets that are acquired during a marriage, I view both halves of that couple being entitled to them and infidelity doesn't change that.

Having said that, I would consider a pre-nup if I had spent my life building my asset base and then married someone at the age of 40/50/60 whatever. I worked for those assets and my 'new wife' would not, in my mind, be entitled to those assets because she didn't work for them; I did and so the vast majority of my assets should go where I want them to.

The same goes for a post nup. You're in it together and if you've spent an appreciable amount of time together then you've built those assets together. Infidelity does not change that, no matter how out of shape either of their personalities are.

That's just me; a post nup is not my cup of tea.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> Let me ask you this a different way. Do you really want to stay with someone who will only stay faithful because they are afraid to lose everything?
> 
> *If it helps to keep a WS out of the fog and helps to establish clear boundaries why not? Eventually I would think that the couple would get to a point where the post-nup would no longer be necessary.*
> 
> ...


Edit: Btw, I'd be happy to continue this discussion with you but we should do it in a different thread. We are threadjacking bandit's thread.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Sure it does. If no-fault divorces had not become the status quo you would see a lot more settlements in favor of the BS. That's how it used to be. If you inflict pain and suffering on someone there should be severe consequences.


It used to be that you could beat women with a stick no thicker than your thumb (*and* leave them penniless in a divorce) and that they couldn't vote either. Gosh, those were the days. *rolleyes*



Beowulf said:


> You are contradicting yourself. What if you are a bastard of a husband and she is an angel of a wife. Should she not be entitled to some of those assets for putting up with your crap? I call cake eating on this one.


No, she should not. She should be entitled to parts of the assets acquired while we worked together in the union less what her shoe habit cost me from the assets that I brought into the union. If I am an a55 then she can leave me, but she's not leaving with 50%+ of my life's work that she didn't sweat for. That's mine.

And what legally constitutes infidelity btw? Proving a PA is one thing but proving an EA is another thing entirely. What if she makes a male friend? Is that infidelity? I'm sorry but I see this as giving the BS financial incentive to search for demons and it is a means of seeking revenge.

And for enough money, you can trump an infidelity charge and make it stick. Granted that would usually involve more money than I'll ever have in my life but still...



Beowulf said:


> Edit: Btw, I'd be happy to continue this discussion with you but we should do it in a different thread. We are threadjacking bandit's thread.


Good point; maybe we can get a mod to move these posts to a new thread.

Sorry Bandit.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

No worries about thread jacking; I find that it all has relevance to a certain extent. As to the pre- post nump, getting legal agreements signed and all that thing, my 2 cents on that. I think that would be tantamount to blackmail and/or extortion and would make it impossible to determine whether somebodies motives were sincere. It could also be compared to the carrot and the stick.. 

Quick scenario: Betrayed finds out, confronts WS, who is now in shock at having been caught and the WS is most often going to be naturally apologetic whether or not they are sincere to deescalate the situation. Additionally the BS generally does not find out on the WS's time schedule, so more often than not it is going to throw a wrench in the plans of the WS and/or wreck and time schedule that person may have been working on in their head. 

Moving on, BS goes all nutty, and WS gets all apologetic.. At this point they are probably both still guided by a lot of emotion.. BS-anger, hurt, etc.. WS-anger, guilt, etc.... WS goes into negotiation mode, I'll do this, I'll do that, yada, yada.. and out comes the talk of R.. 

Now one has to ask themselves was this because the WS got caught or because their time table just got thrown in the trash and they are about to unexpectedly end up on the street, be outed to friends, co-workers, temp lose kids while legalities are settled etc. I mean at this point all the WS can really do is go into damage control mode which includes buying time, in which to come up with another schedule, spin a few stories to friends and coworkers, so that when it does come out.. it's the BS fault and the WS has allies on his/her side.

Since the BS is in the drivers seat now, or in the power position all talk of R hinges on his/her whims and desires. Out comes the I will R but you have to sign a post-nump.. Regardless of whether or not the WS cares or does not care; readily agreeing will go a long ways towards defusing the situation; albeit temporarily, whilst giving the BS a sense of power and control. The WS was just about to be ousted anyways and probably tossed out, so at this point a post-nump regardless of the consequences looks like a pretty good deal.

Also in case nobody has checked recently, we no longer have a debtors prison. So a WS could sign the agreement, which would make them appear to outwardly be laying themselves on the cross to the BS. They could then gather their thoughts, create a new time table, clean out your bank accounts, sell your stuff and still leave with the OM/OW.. What are you going to do? File Suit and get a judgement? Big deal.. They will just include you in the Chap 11 and whammo... your debt goes away, or the will just ignore you entirely as it is a ton of trouble to collect, garnish etc..

Now providing the the WS does not know all that and they truly believe that the Post-Nump is a life ender and will break them financially. Then they are just staying for fear of being punished financially etc.. Additionally it creates and I may be off the mark a relationship similar to indentured servitude. So how can you know if they really want to R, if they are sincere or just staying for fear of being ruined, or still plotting as they know the post-nump is in reality pretty useless etc..

I think if you start applying financial penalties for lack of performance then it is no longer a relationship and becomes a business deal. 

I think R should be negotiated worked out without bonuses, or penalties for best/worst performer..I think holding the other person ransom and locking them financially into R; only sets the stage for disaster and creates resentment from the WS..

I may be totally off the mark, and I think I lost my own train of thought a few times typing that out but I think you guys can figure out what I mean..


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Bandit said:


> I think if you start applying financial penalties for lack of performance then it is no longer a relationship and becomes a business deal.


What purpose does a marriage license serve?


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

TCx said:


> Correct. And is that never going to happen while the BS chokes on the hurt and throws his W off of him saying, "get off me!" ?
> 
> The OP asked how to get past this. Right now he's doing nothing even though his OH is [according to him] trying. But you can only try for so long before the rejection eats at you and consumes your will to live.
> 
> It's on him now. He needs to take that next step, not her. Holding onto the hurt and beating her with it, and not even having the decency to tell her why is, IMHO, abusive.


I think TCX what is tripping you up is the difference between "choice" and "conditioning"; "sacrifice" and "self preservation".
Yes I do say get off of me, but do I sit up and scheme a plan to myself that I can't wait for her to come in and try something with me to I can shoot the bizitch down..no... 

To be honest I would love nothing more than to be able to naturally progress from point A to point B, without feeling like a rape victim.. recoiling at the slightest touch.. To not have that stop gap self defense mechanism pop up and put the skirrrchhhh on anything emotional quick would be a God send.. In many ways I believe that the reaction of the BS to attempts at affection or intimacy by the WS (who may or may not be trying to buy themselves out of trouble) are very compatible to our natural fight or flight reaction and about as instantaneous in their execution when controlled by the sub conscious. 

For example I'm on the couch, reading, working etc.. WS comes in and touches my shoulder in a lame attempt to be affectionate.. in 1/100000th of a second I recoil, flinch, pull back whatever and give a WTF look. Was it choice or reaction? I would tell you reaction or conditioning as I did not plan it and was initially startled by the touch.. My reaction was my raw reaction without the intent of showing malice, it just is what it is and is the result of experience.

On to "sacrifice" and "self preservation".. pretty self explanatory I have two choices.. give of myself again and risk getting another kick in the nads; or remain closed off and relatively safe.. I think someone else on here said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Well I already tried being a loving husband, supportive, there for her, not a cheat, open, honest, vulnerable, trusting etc.. So far that got me a chic that cheats.. So am I supposed to do this again and expect a different result? 

Lastly, the town that I live in is considered to be retirement community (lot's of old folks) and I'm a veteran (wait there's a point).. More often than you can imagine a salty old WWII, Korea or Viet Nam Vet comes in and we start talking about the service and as we swap stories we dehumanize our respective enemies when talking about them.. Those damn Japs, or *********, ************, Sand ******* etc..

Now are these vets being racist? or are they entitled to hate based on their experience? or perhaps it is not hate at all but that is how they actually see them based on the fact that they witnessed this particular race, group whatever try and kill them and their fellow servicemen. So when you mention an Asian, Muslim etc.. veterans don't see them as people but simply as a adversary.. Yeah I'm sure logic tells them that they are not all that way, but their mind has programmed them to survive horrible situations and to dehumanize the threat in order to eliminate it without remorse. Onto the WS, sure your mind does the same thing, you devalue him or her.. Sure you reach a peace agreement, but your always on guard for them to try and slit your throat in your sleep (cheat on you again).. There is always that little part of your mind that sees them for what they are a cheat and keeps you distant. And even if you reach a peace agreement, your still going to duck and look in their direction when you hear gunfire..or react quickly and in a manner consistent with self preservation when they try and touch you or interact with you intimately. "get off me..".. 

Try this.. Wake up, Get out of bed, go ring the doorbell, and then kick the piss out of the dog. Do this for a week.. pretty soon the dog is gonna piss or run just hearing the doorbell regardless of whether or not you kick him..self preservation and conditioning.. Now spend years replaying mind movies over and over and over.. relieving the hurt every day.. constant reminders here and there, a watch, douche boy still has pics of them up together on facebook etc. Pretty soon you condition yourself for the hurt and react quick and decisively to avoid it.

Apologize if I went off track or on a bit of a tangent there.. but I think you get the point.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

morituri said:


> What purpose does a marriage license serve?


Honestly none; its a modern social construct and is about as useless as the paper it is printed on.. Marriage is an emotional, love and trust based agreement between two individuals to support each other and be there for each other through thick and thin. The license thing (the tangible paper item) is nothing more than the governments way to weasel it's way in on that agreement and tax it, or make you PAY to file it, PAY to dissolve it, PAY for another Copy of it, PAY to file it with the courts etc.

I consider couples that have lived together for x amount of time and consider themselves to be married every bit as married and quite a bit smarter (hindsight being 20/20) than those that go out and pay for a cool piece of paper they can hang on the wall.. Additionally how polluted is it that you must PAY to break up with someone? The government has set path and fee schedule that you must follow to end your relationship with somebody ie. florida, you have to fill out financial affidavits, submit W-2 etc. and the Judge will dissolve you after making sure everything is equitable (of course there is a FEE of $400 for the privilege). Most of what is required is none of his damn business... Oh for the old days where you just go your separate ways, but nope that would deprive the local county of a chance to TAX you for making sure you break up in a way that is commensurate with the standards that they have laid out.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Bandit, IMHO, you are making this a lot tougher decision than it needs (or has) to be. The bottom line is YOU have to decide if you can live with the mind movies of how she f**ked and s**ked another guy while she was married (however you want to define marriage) to you, and can you kiss her and use her body KNOWING how another man used it when it was supposed to be yours. The mind movies might fade or they might not, you may regain trust in her or you might not. You already , probably, know the answers to these questions, and considering that you have come to TAM, it looks like you have accepted what she has done and want to reconcile, but lack the will to make that decision to yourself. So do what you want, but DO Something, limbo is worse than divorce OR reconciliation.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

Badblood said:


> YOU have to decide if you can live with the mind movies of how she f**ked and s**ked another guy while she was married (however you want to define marriage) to you, and can you kiss her and use her body KNOWING how another man used it when it was supposed to be yours.


Faint whistling noise,camera pans through living room, Bandit ho-humming away cleaning firearm next to giant Rubbermaid garbage can...tosses treat to dog and cracks a beer; thanks...... mind movies..joking folks not homicidal...


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Bandit said:


> Faint whistling noise,camera pans through living room, Bandit ho-humming away cleaning firearm next to giant Rubbermaid garbage can...tosses treat to dog and cracks a beer; thanks...... mind movies..joking folks not homicidal...


See what I'm saying Dude? Do you think that this crap is going to go away anytime soon? You are going to be triggering for YEARS to come. Is it worth it? Is SHE worth it? Pardner, I was in the same boat, and made my choice. You loved her and what did it get you....cheated on. If you take her back , what have you got....another guy's leftovers. If that's what you want out of life, go ahead, but don't try to minimalize the years of work it's going to take to re-make your marriage, and even then , it won't be the same. AND, as a kicker, the mind movies won't go away whether you R or not. As a fellow Marine, I wish you nothing but the best, which you definitely don't have right now. I may sound harsh, but I"m trying to show you what you have to look forward to, and show that others have had the same problems to deal with,. Good Luck .


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Bandit said:


> I think TCX what is tripping you up is the difference between "choice" and "conditioning"; "sacrifice" and "self preservation".
> 
> Yes I do say get off of me, but do I sit up and scheme a plan to myself that I can't wait for her to come in and try something with me to I can shoot the bizitch down..no...


No, I get that, of course you don't want to be abusive. But by not doing something about it you are; to both of you.



Bandit said:


> To be honest I would love nothing more than to be able to naturally progress from point A to point B, without feeling like a rape victim.. recoiling at the slightest touch.. To not have that stop gap self defense mechanism pop up and put the skirrrchhhh on anything emotional quick would be a God send.. In many ways I believe that the reaction of the BS to attempts at affection or intimacy by the WS (who may or may not be trying to buy themselves out of trouble) are very compatible to our natural fight or flight reaction and about as instantaneous in their execution when controlled by the sub conscious.


That's quite possible. Can I ask you what mind games you've played with yourself to overcome this? ie - when you notice that it happens, do you look at your WS and say, "Sorry, I didn't mean that. I mean, I did, but I don't want that to happen." Have you tried forcing yourself to just hug her and close your eyes and thought to yourself, "I want to love you, I want to trust you, I love you, I trust you, I want to love you, I want to trust you, I love you, I trust you"? And have you just held her for 30+ seconds even though you felt nothing there at all? Have you smelled her hair or run your fingers through it. Have you let her give you a back massage?



Bandit said:


> For example I'm on the couch, reading, working etc.. WS comes in and touches my shoulder in a lame attempt to be affectionate.. in 1/100000th of a second I recoil, flinch, pull back whatever and give a WTF look. Was it choice or reaction?
> 
> I would tell you reaction or conditioning as I did not plan it and was initially startled by the touch.. My reaction was my raw reaction without the intent of showing malice, it just is what it is and is the result of experience.


And how do you break conditioning? Did the corps teach you any skills that can help you here? Have you applied them?



Bandit said:


> On to "sacrifice" and "self preservation".. pretty self explanatory I have two choices.. give of myself again and risk getting another kick in the nads; or remain closed off and relatively safe.. I think someone else on here said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Well I already tried being a loving husband, supportive, there for her, not a cheat, open, honest, vulnerable, trusting etc.. So far that got me a chic that cheats.. So am I supposed to do this again and expect a different result?


Sorry, but I think that's different. You loved her and trusted her and before the infidelity it was rewarding. You kept doing the same thing and you expected the same results and, in general, you go them. And then your world fell apart and you recoiled.

What you are doing now is staying recoiled despite the fact that you obviously want to be happy and despite the fact that you obviously still have some kind of connection with her.



Bandit said:


> Yeah I'm sure logic tells them that they are not all that way, but their mind has programmed them to survive horrible situations and to dehumanize the threat in order to eliminate it without remorse.


And yet, how many times have I seen [granted on TV] WWII vets meeting their former adversary and getting some measure of peace by shaking their hand and talking with them about their experiences in the war? Could the vets be faking it for TV or do you think they get some sense of wonder from these meetings? Possibly both, I don't know.



Bandit said:


> Onto the WS, sure your mind does the same thing, you devalue him or her.. Sure you reach a peace agreement, but your always on guard for them to try and slit your throat in your sleep (cheat on you again).. There is always that little part of your mind that sees them for what they are a cheat and keeps you distant. And even if you reach a peace agreement, your still going to duck and look in their direction when you hear gunfire..or react quickly and in a manner consistent with self preservation when they try and touch you or interact with you intimately. "get off me.."..


Agreed, you have a conditioned response. So start reprogramming yourself by talking with her and trying to empathize with her. Give her the opportunity to do the same with you. If neither of you can get past this then your marriage is a sham and you're just causing each other pain.



Bandit said:


> Try this.. Wake up, Get out of bed, go ring the doorbell, and then kick the piss out of the dog. Do this for a week.. pretty soon the dog is gonna piss or run just hearing the doorbell regardless of whether or not you kick him..self preservation and conditioning..


Yep. So you recognize that this is all conditioning and, perhaps you've tried to undo some of it. What, that you've tried, hasn't worked? And if it hasn't worked, how long did you stick with it?



Bandit said:


> Now spend years replaying mind movies over and over and over.. relieving the hurt every day.. constant reminders here and there, a watch, douche boy still has pics of them up together on facebook etc. Pretty soon you condition yourself for the hurt and react quick and decisively to avoid it.


Would it help to re-arrange the furniture? Or move house? Or block the douche on fb?



Bandit said:


> Apologize if I went off track or on a bit of a tangent there.. but I think you get the point.


Yes, you recognize that you exhibit conditioned responses to her presence and her behaviors. Re-programming is a long and painful process and... can you guess what I'm going to say... will mean that you will need people to help you through it. This includes your wife. You cannot do this alone.

(If you're a music guy, listen to the song "The Humbling River" by Puscifer; I think it might resonate with you.)

And someone with training will be able to help you with the techniques that you need to get past this.

Aside: I was talking to a buddy about his post-infidelity marriage a few weeks ago and he was ready to walk out the door. He thought his wife hated him, they were sleeping in different rooms and things were tense; he was just gutted. After a few days of exchanging emails, he finally decided to just talk to his wife and actually ask her what she thought the problems were and a few days later his mood had taken a complete turnaround. IMHO, most of that turnaround was an act because he was withdrawing/avoiding some thoughts that were starting to creep into his head but that's another story.

But the way in which he talked showed that he actually did get some release just by talking through it with her. They are far from healed but at least they are talking now.

You strike me as being in the same boat as my buddy. Afraid to talk about the hurt because you don't want to cause more. It's gotta happen dude. Again, enter Marriage Counseling. Sometimes it's helpful to have someone in the room pull things from you. Sometimes it's easier to look someone else in the face when you say hurtful things, rather than your wife. And sometimes it's nice to have someone there that can catch the body language and other cues when your wife is being dishonest about something.

Seriously dude, please talk to your wife about this. And I do strongly recommend you seek marriage counseling. (And I'm going to continue to strongly recommend it; I apologize, in advance, for it getting boring and then annoying, if it hasn't already).


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

Badblood said:


> See what I'm saying Dude? Do you think that this crap is going to go away anytime soon? You are going to be triggering for YEARS to come. Is it worth it? Is SHE worth it? Pardner, I was in the same boat, and made my choice. You loved her and what did it get you....cheated on. If you take her back , what have you got....another guy's leftovers. If that's what you want out of life, go ahead, but don't try to minimalize the years of work it's going to take to re-make your marriage, and even then , it won't be the same. AND, as a kicker, the mind movies won't go away whether you R or not. As a fellow Marine, I wish you nothing but the best, which you definitely don't have right now. I may sound harsh, but I"m trying to show you what you have to look forward to, and show that others have had the same problems to deal with,. Good Luck .


i dont know why, but i really wated to chime in on this one.

as guys, the mind movies my be the hardest most lingering effects of an affair. i know it will be for me. mostly because there was such a physical difference between me and the OM. during my wifes few moments of clarity shes answered some questions. and while theyre probably on 50% truth, ill roll with what i got.

at some point your gonna have to forgive yourself, then forgive her if you really want to move on.

i might suggest just writing all the intamcay stuff and sit down for a weekend and handle it. it might not get rid of anything, but it might. at this point communication is most definatly your best bet. ask anything you want to know, or dont, as well discuss the affects on her, and let her know how theye affect you. it wont solve anything, but havinga clearer definition of what going on in your head and gainng some control may be worth it.

for me, im forcing myself to thing about it. its a little twisted, but i want to exhause everything, to the point where either im numb, or it just doesnt have an affect and i get tougher because of it...


last thing, badblood mentioned havng another guys leftovers.
unless she was a virgin when you married her, chances are your alrready getting somebodies left overs. and you can think to a degree the OM was getting used goods to and since she came back to you, she may prove that you are choice number 1. which puts the OM n the inferior postion...

just food for thought


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

elph said:


> i dont know why, but i really wated to chime in on this one.
> 
> as guys, the mind movies my be the hardest most lingering effects of an affair. i know it will be for me. mostly because there was such a physical difference between me and the OM. during my wifes few moments of clarity shes answered some questions. and while theyre probably on 50% truth, ill roll with what i got.
> 
> ...


Perhaps "leftovers", was a poor choice of words. When we commit to marriage , we "forsake all others", not just a few or sometimes, but permanently. She CHOSE to give her body (which in marriage is yours) to another man, this is a far different situation than whether or not she had sex BEFORE the marriage. Before the marriage, she was a free agent, after the marriage she was not. So, in coming back to Bandit, she is making him her "plan B'. Remember that, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS. She CHOSE to spit on the marriage vows, disrespect Bandit, humiliate him and ignore any of his rights and feelings. So Bandit........ is this the kind of woman you want? If you take her back, this will always be with you, the 700 lb. Gorilla that you try to ignore. I don't know about you, but I have far too much self-respect to live like this.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Perhaps "leftovers", was a poor choice of words. When we commit to marriage , we "forsake all others", not just a few or sometimes, but permanently. She CHOSE to give her body (which in marriage is yours) to another man, this is a far different situation than whether or not she had sex BEFORE the marriage. Before the marriage, she was a free agent, after the marriage she was not. So, in coming back to Bandit, she is making him her "plan B'. Remember that, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS. She CHOSE to spit on the marriage vows, disrespect Bandit, humiliate him and ignore any of his rights and feelings. So Bandit........ is this the kind of woman you want? If you take her back, this will always be with you, the 700 lb. Gorilla that you try to ignore. I don't know about you, but I have far too much self-respect to live like this.


Admittedly I don't recall the intimate details of bandit's situation. Is he plan B or did she realize that she was stupid and insane when she chose to break her vows? I think it does make a difference. At least it did for me. Reconciling wasn't easy. In fact I had to have the mindset that I was no longer married and she had to make me fall in love with her again for it to work with us. That is why I say that in order to stay together a couple have to build a new marriage because the old one is dead. If either the wayward or the betrayed can't do that then separation and divorce is a must because resentment and regret will linger forever.


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

TCx said:


> That's quite possible. Can I ask you what mind games you've played with yourself to overcome this? ie - when you notice that it happens, do you look at your WS and say, "Sorry, I didn't mean that. I mean, I did, but I don't want that to happen." Have you tried forcing yourself to just hug her and close your eyes and thought to yourself, "I want to love you, I want to trust you, I love you, I trust you, I want to love you, I want to trust you, I love you, I trust you"? And have you just held her for 30+ seconds even though you felt nothing there at all? Have you smelled her hair or run your fingers through it. Have you let her give you a back massage?





In so long as I can remember, I have done none of the above.. I damn sure have not hugged or held her, nor have I smelled her hair or anything along those lines.. I'll pass..I mean there is love but at this stage until I a) get to a different place mentally b) or we go separate ways. There is all the affection that would be expected with a same sex room mate.. 



TCx said:


> And yet, how many times have I seen [granted on TV] WWII vets meeting their former adversary and getting some measure of peace by shaking their hand and talking with them about their experiences in the war? Could the vets be faking it for TV or do you think they get some sense of wonder from these meetings? Possibly both, I don't know.




Everybody is different, but I can bet you dollars to doughnuts.. that once the t.v. moment is over they probably are not all warm and fuzzy when thinking about there foe..Additionally there is an added issue there in that 'military folks'.. atrocities, muslims, cutting off ears and other stuff aside, generally realize that their once enemy was a mirror reflection of themselves. Just another professional soldier following orders, the only difference was who was giving them. 



TCx said:


> Agreed, you have a conditioned response. So start reprogramming yourself by talking with her and trying to empathize with her. Give her the opportunity to do the same with you. If neither of you can get past this then your marriage is a sham and you're just causing each other pain.




empathize, really? I fail to see in what world she deserves empathy, pity, sympathy or a shoulder to cry on..The situation and/or any feelings she has are a result of her own actions and she is responsible for her own mending. Also I think that I can probably tough it out better as I'm not the cause of it, I am also entitled to be hurt; whereas the opposite is not true.





TCx said:


> Would it help to re-arrange the furniture? Or move house? Or block the douche on fb?



She wanted to do that, move houses etc.. burn a ton of cash relocating so she can get past her issues.. It's a house, bricks and mortar, it is not responsible for what went down. As for the smeg pirate on facebook, it's not so much a matter of blocking him as he is making no overt attempts to interfere as I am pretty sure he is in fear for his life in so far as I am concerned. It's a matter of he still has the pics up on facebook where I can view them..whenever I'm feeling warm and fuzzy I just take a gander and it puts me back in a defensive stronghold. I do somehow feel that beating him within an inch of his life or castrating him would help me get past the demons though.. I can hold a grudge forever.. 5 years, 10, whether or not me and her remain together etc.. I get the chance to go after him and I'll take it.. He moved out to Cali after I went level 5 and started hunting him..I truly feel that it is only by the grace of God that I never got a holt of him.. It was a whole drama his family was terrified and got involved, the cops came to visit me etc..So in many ways I think his leaving the photos up is a passive aggressive stab at me as that is the only recourse he has as physically he would be committing suicide to confront me. Needless to say it pisses me right off and keeps me a tuned to hurting him some day in the future. Sorry ranting..


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## elph (Apr 2, 2011)

bandit,

i feel your pain man. 

especially on the part of wanting to go after the OM.

if this were the 50/60's we couldve handle this like men, and been done with it. but the law protects them despite the fact.

conversly though, i want to say this.

i know how you feel about your wife, the pain she inflicted and the fact that she has to own up 100% to what shes done, and that she has to do the heavy lifting. i expect the sme from my wife when/if the time comes.


that said, at some point you have to let go of some of the resentment. not all, because youshould absolutly be on your guardand will be for the next few years. its totally expected.

but at some point, you have to realize, if you want to reconcille, that the affair is no longer just her problem, its both of your problem. and you need to tackle it like a team in order to move on. because it affects you too. and how you choose to approach it, can make a big difference in how things go.

i know we want to and have everyright to blame the spouse for 100% of the problem, and they are. but at some point they cant do 100% of the work, because thatll mean theyre the onlyones doing the work. again if its a marriage you want, then itll take 2.


if youdont see your self getting over it, then you might as well cut your loses and find someone you dont have to agonize and harbor resntment towards 24/7. itll eat you up


good luck


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## Bugz Bunny (Nov 28, 2011)

How long was your WWs affair and has she confessed everything on D day or you had to drag informations out of her...???

Was your WWs AP ever in your house...Did they meet at your home...???

How old are you and your wife ?

Sorry for asking all this questions but since you dont want to leave and divorce her even if you have huge triggers I am just trying to understand your thinking and trying to put myself in your situation...

My exW affair was 1 month long and AP was never in my house (she said so but I was never interested to investigate this since I left her the house)but I divorced her because I knew she would be a trigger for me if we stayed together...

And I never touched her after D day...


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

_How long was your WWs affair and has she confessed everything on D day or you had to drag informations out of her...???
_
The better part of 6 months, Had to drag/deceive it out of her; after I already had sufficient evidence to substantiate the fact. At which point and once cornered so to speak she threw herself on the mercy of the court.

_Was your WWs AP ever in your house.._

Yes

_.Did they meet at your home...???_

Meet as in initially-no, Meet as in intimately-yes
_
How old are you and your wife ?_ 35 and 34 respectively

Sorry for asking all this questions but since you dont want to leave and divorce her even if you have huge triggers I am just trying to understand your thinking and trying to put myself in your situation...

My exW affair was 1 month long and AP was never in my house (she said so but I was never interested to investigate this since I left her the house)but I divorced her because I knew she would be a trigger for me if we stayed together...

And I never touched her after D day...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> I do somehow feel that beating him within an inch of his life or castrating him would help me get past the demons though.. I can hold a grudge forever.. 5 years, 10, whether or not me and her remain together etc.. I get the chance to go after him and I'll take it.. He moved out to Cali after I went level 5 and started hunting him..I truly feel that it is only by the grace of God that I never got a holt of him.. It was a whole drama his family was terrified and got involved, the cops came to visit me etc..So in many ways I think his leaving the photos up is a passive aggressive stab at me as that is the only recourse he has as physically he would be committing suicide to confront me. Needless to say it pisses me right off and keeps me a tuned to hurting him some day in the future.


I'd love to have five minutes in a locked room with my STBXW's lover. Just five minutes. Guaranteed he would spend the rest of his life eating through a tube.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

My fWW lovers already eat throw straws.....thats what I don't get! LOL
And how do they give her oral with that stupid helmet that they wear?


I hope this wasn't a trigger. But screw the OM's, if having it on the run is were there at then there all losers IMHO


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> My fWW lovers already eat throw straws.....thats what I don't get! LOL
> And how do they give her oral with that stupid helmet that they wear?


:scratchhead:??


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

My chicks OM was a retard already, I didn't have to make him that way.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm trying to bring humor to this crap called infidelity.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> My chicks OM was a retard already, I didn't have to make him that way.


Good lord! I need to read your thread!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

We're tread jacking, sorry bandit

Got to go way back in Aug. '10 

"guy with the cheating wife" is the title


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I have not been able to be sexually intimate with my stbx either in 9 months for the very same movies that's non stop . I just see him "doing" her...
and bc of this it has made it impossible for me to move on together.It just changes every thing ...

~sammy


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## Bandit (Feb 8, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I'd love to have five minutes in a locked room with my STBXW's lover. Just five minutes. Guaranteed he would spend the rest of his life eating through a tube.


Yuppers, maybe not eating through a tube; I prefer to think that he would be all coloring books and crayons for the rest of his life after I get done.. His birthday five years past the beating he would still be working with his Big Chief Tablet and Big Indian Pencil while the folks at the care center congratulated him on his potty training progress.



sammy3 said:


> I have not been able to be sexually intimate with my stbx either in 9 months for the very same movies that's non stop . I just see him "doing" her...
> and bc of this it has made it impossible for me to move on together.It just changes every thing ...
> 
> ~sammy



A double Yuppers on this post, it just throws a wall right up (builds a barrier) and the thought makes you both sick and angry.. Additionally it has a very serious effect on you ego; ie... You do become intimate again and she tells you that your better etc.. in your mind you reason that she is probably just lying to make you feel better.. Reasoning being that if you were Top Dog the whole time, why would she have hopped the fence and let a stray bone her?...looking for the BBD (Bigger Better Deal - Dizick) whatever.. point being you were not Top Dog whilst she was being stuffed and mounted by the OM, so why are you suddenly Top Dog now that she has been busted? There liars that's why... If only publicly stoning a WS was not frowned upon..


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What do you want Bandit? Do you want to stay or leave? What is that you hope to get out of this discussion?


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