# Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Continuing on from the other 14-page thread which was entitled, "What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and why?", this thread is just the same, only with a more fitting title. 

If you haven't read the thread, it was basically my argument that even wayward spouses, being that they are human beings, have a fundamental right to self-care and self-compassion, and that such would actually enable them to be better healers to their betrayed spouses when they needed to be. The counterargument was that any talk of the wayward spouse feeling anything but self-hatred was a knife in the back of the betrayed. 



> Anyway, the point is that I'm generally able to see both sides of almost any story, and have compassion for most people. Even if I dislike them or find their actions distasteful or immoral, I can usually understand to some extent what made them feel led to act that way. This does not seem to go over well when I extend this compassion to wayward spouses. I am of the sort of mind that I could go over and put my arms around the gutted, hysterically weeping betrayed spouse, offer them chamomile tea and my handkerchief, and tell them that their spouse's infidelity was cruel and thoughtless and that they have every right to be upset for as long as they need. Then immediately after, I can also comfort the wayward spouse, offer them the same crying shoulder, and tell them I know it's hard seeing the unintended consequences of their actions.
> 
> I would make for a very poor prosecutor, because were I to be at a murder trial, I could comfort the victim and the perpetrator in the same hour! "I know you didn't mean to kill him", I would say, to the shock and horror of the bereaved.
> 
> ...



I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely _why_. 
If I may paste the last thing I wrote on the other thread:



> How exactly is sympathy akin to invalidation? They are the opposite! One must first understand someone's pain, thereby validating it at least in some aspect, before they can show sympathy. And I don't doubt @sokillme would say the very same thing to my husband as he has said to other betrayed spouses here- that is, to leave me as fast as possible. Perhaps, sokillme, you should examine why it is that you can extend mercy to a wayward spouse after you get to know them, but not before.


Let us continue.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Fitting title.



> Sympathy For The Devil
> The Rolling Stones
> 
> Please allow me to introduce myself
> ...


It's all from history. You can look up each stanza. 

Sympathy for the Devil - Rolling Stones Live 1969 with the Hells Angels as concert security

Here's a high quality studio version of the song.

https://youtu.be/ZJTGaJbQu3s

Ella, only certain folks will understand the ramifications of infidelity for a betrayed spouse who has been hurt so badly they are changed for life. 

You will never understand. Many betrayed don't understand other betrayed spouses. 

Even if you experience being a betrayed spouse, you won't understand. It won't affect you the same. It's just a matter of who we are as individuals. 

Personally, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were. I feel the same about infidelity and the unfaithful. Those who find excuses are those who can't accept responsibility for their actions. They will never feel true remorse, nor sympathy for their betrayed. They can only feel it for themselves.

Aren't you simply proving that with both of these threads? 

When all choices are taken away, I will have sympathy. But then, isn't that rape? I think we can, all BS and WS, get together and say we have sympathy for rape victims. 

Don't you think it's time for acceptance?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I think that you are having trouble getting these answers because we are all human beings. We each feel differently to a situation, and what may bother you not bother me. Infidelity is a complex situation with so many variables and nuances for both spouses to consider. Again, what may bother you might not bother me. You may feel the lies and deception were the worst, and I may feel that the time and emotions spent on the affair bothered me. You may feel guilty after you've had sex with OM/OW, but where was that guilt before you had sex? Did your spouse ever come into your mind? If your spouse did come into your mind, how could you be so cruel to keep going? Why not stop? 

Obviously I'm a betrayed spouse, and my wife's affair produced twin boys. If you could honestly show compassion to my wife AND THE OM, then you are a far better person then I. Not that I'm some great person, not that I'm better then anyone else, but I just can't give compassion to OM. It was very hard for me to just not destroy my wife, but I didn't, my boys need their mom. It was when I came to know I didn't need her to survive did our reconciliation become better. You may have an issue with this, but the truth is a good marriage exists when both spouses know they could live well without each other. This shows that each spouse is independent, self confident, good self esteem, and chooses to love their spouse. This is why codependency is such a silent marriage killer, it's unhealthy. 

It has taken me three years to begin to really understand infidelity. My understanding is also from the betrayeds perspective, even though I try to place myself into a WS's shoes. I'm not so good at that, my anger over seeing someone get destroyed usually takes over. However, there are many former WS's who I have so much respect for on this site. They are around, they get what they did, and there are some who just don't get it and never will. I asked my wife a question after she said she finally realized how much I love her. My question was how could you not know? Everything I did was for my family, I am fallible as much as the next person, but I also wasn't the worst husband in the world. 

I've admitted to bringing several toxic issues into my marriage. I have worked very hard to correct these issues, and I will now be a better spouse to my wife or someone else. I have work to do as does my wife, when we stop doing the work is when I pull the plug. If she stops I'm done, if I stop I obviously can't continue to move forward, so then I'm done. It has to be a joint effort on both spouses parts or it won't work.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Aaaaand I'm done. Are you a troll? Really Ella? It's really that hard for you to comprehend how someone who did the most hurtful thing possible short of maiming a person's child (and that's not hyperbole, talk to any betrayed spouse, they will tell you that this pain is far beyond the death of a parent, the loss of a coveted job, etc). Is it really hard for you to understand how someone who has been subjected to that level of pain and humilation at the hands of their spouse might not really want to hear how tough it is FOR YOU?
> 
> How they might, just maybe, not have the bandwidth to deal with yet ANOTHER one of a cheater's self-inflicted problems? Your husband must be a saint. Or, as I'm starting to wonder, maybe you just can't see beyond the end of your own nose. Which ... sounds like a cheater to me.
> 
> If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ... Ella, are you a duck?


She is a former wayward. That being said, even many former wayward spouses, at her supposed stage of infidelity recovery, can at least accept that they don't understand, and offer empathy, rather than continually attempt to justify and prove that there are conditions under which infidelity is the best choice out of a number of choices.

Seems like there is a relationship between their reactions to what they have done and it's impact with, psychopathy and some Asperger's, Narcissism and maybe other cluster B personality disorders when thinking about some wayward spouses. 

Note: I'm not a doctor and that last paragraph should be taken as an observance, not as a diagnosis or a disparaging remark to all wayward spouses. Look these up and you will be surprised how they overlap and relate to this discussion.

No, I'm not accusing you, Elle, of having any of these. I'm just trying to understand how some wayward spouses might find it tough to understand. 


https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/psychopathy

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/aspergers-syndrome

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...istic-personality-disorder-and-the-antisocial

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/personality-disorders


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I've been cheated on and damaged during two relationships.

looking back after a few years, even though there is still some pain and perplextion,
I can feel sympathy for my ex's. Yes they are human beings and worthy of sympathy.

They dont get it. They wont change. They live in a different world than me.
I still hurt a bit from time to time. But I have no ill will towards them.
they gave me good things and bad. One gave me the best times in my life.
and also some of the worst.
the other was a train wreck, but I still wish her well from afar.

what is it exactly you are trying to tell us?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> I've been cheated on and damaged during two relationships.
> 
> looking back after a few years, even though there is still some pain and perplextion,
> I can feel sympathy for my ex's. Yes they are human beings and worthy of sympathy.
> ...





> If you haven't read the thread, it was basically my argument that even wayward spouses, being that they are human beings, have a fundamental right to self-care and self-compassion, and that such would actually enable them to be better healers to their betrayed spouses when they needed to be.





> I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely why.
> If I may paste the last thing I wrote on the other thread:
> 
> 
> ...


So, jorgene, Ella believes a betrayed spouse must experience the pain that the wayward went through, before they can understand the reasons for the infidelity.

I don't doubt that in principle. 

She also doesn't believe that infidelity is a good enough reason for a betrayed spouse to divorce. She seems to think that it is important to understand what was bothering the wayward so much, they just had to sleep with another person. 

There was no choice because it was the only thing shocking enough to cause some of these heartless betrayed spouses to change their ways and start to treat their wives like they've always wanted to be treated. 

If the betrayed divorces the wayward, it will all have been for nothing, since the betrayal was simply to punish the betrayed, not cause them enough pain to divorce. 

How insensitive that seems. The betrayed forced the wayward into doing something rash to make them do what they want. Why can't the betrayed just realize that and come around. 

I mean, the wayward has put so so much into the marriage, and the retraining of her husband, it doesn't seem fair to throw it all away. 

You just have to come at them from a different angle to get the betrayed to suffer correctly. They must be shown to have been a turd in actions to a saint, or martyr, whichever you prefer. The poor martyr wayward has been through hell. 

Now, explain to me how the wayward was treated by the OM/OW? 

Pretty darn good, right? 

Keep eatin' the soylent green. It's good for you, jorgene. Nevermind it's crackers made from the dead. It's nutritious!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

JayOwen said:


> Now, I understand you're not advocating that cheaters go up to their spouses and say "Baby, I know I ripped your heart out, but I need you to focus on my pain for a moment." I understand that's not what you're advocating. But by writing your articles and starting multiple threads here now, you are doggedly trying to elevate this perspective in the hierarchy of what is important while ignoring the fact that there is potentially direct, negative consequences. To whit, most wayward spouses need help to STOP putting themselves first. And unfortunately, your advice, well-intentioned as it may be, just gives people on the fence a reason to think that maybe they're not so bad for putting themselves first YET AGAIN i.e. "Look baby, other people on the Internet think I should take care of myself first because really that's going to be good for you!" CUT TO: bewildered, hurt look on a betrayed spouses face.
> 
> And once again, I'll reiterate -- YOUR SITUATION IS DIFFERENT. Not only in how it played out but where you are in the process. You cheated. You've been forgiven, now you can deal with the hurt on your side in a healthy, safe space. That's great for you. Unfortunately, most people here, myself included, are still at step one of that trifecta. Our spouses cheated. There is no forgiveness yet. There can be no focus on healing for the perpetrator. Not yet. You're giving advice on how to stay hydrated during a marathon when most cheaters are still trying to figure out their Couch-to-5k training plan.
> 
> And that is why you're getting such a pushback. You're not qualified to instruct, and you're talking about the wrong parts of the process (at least for most people here). Can you not see that?


Very well. I do see what you're saying about being hydrated during a marathon when most are only just getting on the treadmill. Perhaps too much focus on the wayward spouse might make him think he (or she) has permission to put their _wants_ above their spouse's _needs_, and that's a problem. I have tried to address this tastefully, without saying to the wayward spouse, "You can't have healing yet" because the wayward spouse probably _is_ hurt to some degree or another by their action, even if that hurt really only amounts to longing for their AP. Would it make my words softer for the betrayed if I wrote an article, for them, too? I really see no need for that as so many authors have stepped in on their behalf and offered them much better help than I can provide.






JayOwen said:


> Aaaaand I'm done. Are you a troll? Really Ella? It's really that hard for you to comprehend how someone who did the most hurtful thing possible short of maiming a person's child (and that's not hyperbole, talk to any betrayed spouse, they will tell you that this pain is far beyond the death of a parent, the loss of a coveted job, etc). Is it really hard for you to understand how someone who has been subjected to that level of pain and humilation at the hands of their spouse might not really want to hear how tough it is FOR YOU?
> 
> How they might, just maybe, not have the bandwidth to deal with yet ANOTHER one of a cheater's self-inflicted problems? Your husband must be a saint. Or, as I'm starting to wonder, maybe you just can't see beyond the end of your own nose. Which ... sounds like a cheater to me.
> 
> If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ... Ella, are you a duck?


No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm sorry; I should have been clearer. Let me try again.

I do very much understand how betrayed spouses are, in the first months, unable to look at their wayward spouses with empathy. That even seeing their face brings back gut-wrenching panic, nausea, terror, and grief. But as you said, it was different for me.

When I first went into hospital, it was very much "all about me" from the get-go. My weeping mother, hugging me and telling me, "Don't come out before you're better." At first I was more than willing to call a spade a spade, albeit in a very selfish way. _I had an affair, and I'm moving out to be with my lover. Let me go so I can be with him. My husband will be better off divorced._ But as I started to talk to these doctors about why I was starving myself, changing my hairstyle, and having constant panic attacks, they immediately rushed in with sympathy and compassion. "_Don't you understand that he did this to you? He's not your lover, he's your _abuser. _We're here to help you._" They all had a battered woman narrative, and to them I fit that role. 

The doctors helped me see who my OM really was. When people came home and accused me- _correctly_- of cheating on my husband- I still literally broke down into inconsolable wailing, even months later. The shame I felt was almost unbearable. It would be another two years, nearly, before I could even _begin_ to confront that shame, let alone face up to the consequences of my actions and try to make amends.

My experience of being a victim of abuse and a wayward spouse made me wonder how much these other wayward spouses must suffer because no one cared for them in the same way that a small legion of doctors and psychologists cared for me. True, they were never abused, but they too must hurt. They too must feel assailed by guilt and shame and self-loathing, perhaps even more than me because they never had parts of their affair that were non-consensual. So, as there was no literature for them that didn't further fan the fires of their shame, I wrote my own.

Of course I can see how it might hurt the betrayed spouse to have to see someone having sympathy for their abusers. But I also remember the massive outpouring of support and help I got for my own affair, and feel pangs of sympathy that no such help is offered to other wayward spouses.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MODERATOR NOTE:

Calling other members trolls or being generally disrespectful to other members is against the rules.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> So, jorgene, Ella believes a betrayed spouse must experience the pain that the wayward went through, before they can understand the reasons for the infidelity.
> 
> I don't doubt that in principle.
> 
> ...


You're very much putting words in my mouth that aren't there, I fear. I do not believe that if a betrayed spouse wants to divorce, that they shouldn't. The choice to stay or go is still _always_ in the hands of the betrayed. The betrayed spouse did not force the wayward spouse to have an affair. That's all on the cheater. And yes, the cheater must understand that within himself, and understand what led to the affair. The betrayed spouse didn't make them do anything. How on earth you've come to these erroneous conclusions about my line of thought is beyond me.

Sympathy for a wayward spouse's pain and grief does NOT mean that the wayward spouse didn't completely cause his or her own suffering by choosing to cheat. But you simply don't walk up to a crying person and say, "You brought this on yourself. I don't feel sorry for you." Instead, you offer them your shoulder, and gently encourage them to put themselves aside for a short while to heal their betrayed spouse. And when they're done comforting their betrayed spouse for a day or a night, you give them your shoulder again.


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> She is a former wayward.


Even if I hadn't known this fact already I certainly would've been clued in by the avalanche of rationalizations for why people should feel sorry for her and others like her.

But honestly I think Ella is just posting in the wrong forum. There's a subreddit over on Reddit devoted to adulterery: tips and moral support, etc now that ******* is shut down -- that might be more her target audience.


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> MODERATOR NOTE:
> 
> Calling other members trolls or being generally disrespectful to other members is against the rules.


Noted, and apologies, I'm stepping back -- I'm getting too worked up.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You're very much putting words in my mouth that aren't there, I fear. I do not believe that if a betrayed spouse wants to divorce, that they shouldn't. The choice to stay or go is still _always_ in the hands of the betrayed. The betrayed spouse did not force the wayward spouse to have an affair. That's all on the cheater. And yes, the cheater must understand that within himself, and understand what led to the affair. The betrayed spouse didn't make them do anything. How on earth you've come to these erroneous conclusions about my line of thought is beyond me.
> 
> Sympathy for a wayward spouse's pain and grief does NOT mean that the wayward spouse didn't completely cause his or her own suffering by choosing to cheat. But you simply don't walk up to a crying person and say, "You brought this on yourself. I don't feel sorry for you." Instead, you offer them your shoulder, and gently encourage them to put themselves aside for a short while to heal their betrayed spouse. And when they're done comforting their betrayed spouse for a day or a night, you give them your shoulder again.



I'm so sorry, Ella. I hope you find the sympathy you need. I'm all out. Take care.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely _why_.
> .



Ella... you either get it or don't get it. It's that simple. And I don't want to be rude, but there are people that are fundamentally challenged on empathy, and feeling certain emotions for others. Narcissists is one example. Sociopaths, even asperguers. My husband is like this... there is a piece missing from his brain that allows him to FEEL a certain way. He gets it from an intellectual point of view, but he doesn't FEEL it. He doesn't get it and he never will. You can't teach people to feel, they do or they don't. 

I find it to be very strange that you want to keep the affair alive. That you want to keep the conversation going. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with you, that you let this affair define you so much, and how you continue to let it be such a big part of your life. Your husband is over it. Why aren't you? You have to understand that this says something about who you are.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm so sorry, Ella. I hope you find the sympathy you need. I'm all out. Take care.


I'm just fine. Thank you. I'm okay; I just want other waywards to come to be okay too. Take care. :smile2:


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I find it to be very strange that you want to keep the affair alive. That you want to keep the conversation going. I think that there is fundamentally wrong with you, that you let this affair define you so much, and how you continue to let it be such a big part of your life. Your husband is over it. Why aren't you? You have to understand that this says something about who you are.


In my day-to-day life, outside of the forum, the OM is seldom a thought in my head. Even my nightmares aren't about him anymore, mostly. I originally came here because I wanted to talk about my husband and all the lovely things he does for me, and all the things I plan and orchestrate for him. I wanted to talk about my hopes for the future and worries that he might someday leave. But then I saw the CWI forum and found all these WS who are now where I was back in 2014-2015 with my healing. And they just got insulted and shamed, and I want to make sure other waywards know there's someone who hears them and wishes them comfort and peace. Nothing more. The affair and its aftermath are no longer the massive part of my life they once were, but rather like a plague survivor who has regained her life, I want to stay at the emotional bedsides of the sick and suffering, and offer support to the people for whom many here only feel disdain. That's so much more important that cataloging my happiness and my minor trials.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Ella, you are a human being, flaws in all, and will never be perfect. That holds true for me also, and everyone posting here at TAM. Nobody is perfect. Being a betrayed spouse, I can't tell you how badly I was hurt. I can tell you I tried to kill myself, pause right here, do you understand what it really feels like to see death as the only answer? I had never thought of suicide before, never had I felt as hopeless as I did that night. Just me and my weapon at the kitchen table that night. Alas I'm still here, but for months afterward I still wished I wasn't here. Death would have ended my pain, death was my way of dealing with the devastation. Everything else was dead, no big deal if I die too. Have you ever been in that mindset that has you at such a low point? I don't blame my wife entirely, I coped in the worst way possible, and I'm now a much different man. 

Wayward spouses are still human beings also. I can only really speak about my wife, as I have seen what she goes through and how she copes. I know for a fact my wife would give her life if it meant she didn't hurt me with her affair. But what's done is done, and we can't change anything. Many here feel my wife is a vile and cruel person, what she did was vile and cruel. That doesn't mean she can't change, that doesn't mean she can't have value and worth. My wife has worked very hard to prove she is worthy and valuable. The posters here still may not accept that, they have their opinion and I'm ok with that. I don't protect her here, if I'm here ten years from now maybe I will. It's still to soon for me to protect her. That doesn't make her efforts any less, it doesn't mean she won't have worth and value. It doesn't mean she won't be respected down the road. Nobody knows what she will be in ten years including me. 

I believe people can change, some who cheat can and do change, then again some don't. Some understand and get what they have done, some don't. It comes down to a persons core belief, that they accept their flaws, work on them and become a better person. Some can self reflect, make the changes and become better people. Our MC had to tell my wife on numerous occasions that what she chose to do was bad, but she can be a good person and is. Honestly the first time our therapist said this I thought she was crazy, nope, she was correct. 

Everyone has the potential to do good or bad. My wife chose to make the worst decision of her life, and that decision had life altering effects. What she is doing now is also life altering, but now it's in a positive way. If you didn't know my wife had a six month long affair with her co-worker. That affair produced twin boys, and I found out the paternity two days after d-day. D-day was two and a half years after the affair stopped. My wife ended the affair. 

Forgiving yourself is necessary, you need to so you can move forward in healing. If you don't forgive yourself you can't heal, not healing means you aren't making all of the necessary changes to yourself. Constantly beating yourself up is not healthy either, learn from you choices and make better choices in the future. But that means you need to move forward without forgetting.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

You remind me of those men that were jocks in high school that always reminisce about the big game even though it was 20 years ago. Like they peaked in high school and it was the best time of their life so they always talk about it, and they look for ways to randomly bring it up. 

Ella it's over. Let it go. Stop finding excuses and ways to bring it back to life. You say you came on this forum because you wanted to talk about your husband. No you didn't. Most of your posts are about your affair that happened years ago. Didn't you get kicked off a forum for keep talking about the affair? 

Leave it in the past. It's over. I don't know why you get satisfaction talking about it so much and why you feel the need to continue to talk about it. 

I am not going to enable this problem by continuing to participate in it. I wish you luck in your relationship and in your life


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If we cannot have compassion (eventually) for a remorseful WS, then we are no better, and deserve none either. Compassion and forgiveness are the hallmarks of all religions and major philosophies, and is a trait that makes us fully human.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> You remind me of those men that were jocks in high school that always reminisce about the big game even though it was 20 years ago. Like they peaked in high school and it was the best time of their life so they always talk about it, and they look for ways to randomly bring it up.
> 
> Ella it's over. Let it go. Stop finding excuses and ways to bring it back to life. You say you came on this forum because you wanted to talk about your husband. No you didn't. Most of your posts are about your affair that happened years ago. Didn't you get kicked off a forum for keep talking about the affair?
> 
> ...


No, I got banned from SurvivingInfidelity for saying that a BS was being cruel by wishing the OW would commit suicide. I got banned from Loveshack because people believed I was lying about marrying a 28-year-old man at 18. And as to CWI, please read my post again. I'll re-post it here.



> The affair and its aftermath are no longer the massive part of my life they once were, but rather like a plague survivor who has regained her life, *I want to stay at the emotional bedsides of the sick and suffering, and offer support to the people for whom many here only feel disdain. That's so much more important than cataloging my happiness and my minor trials.*


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@drifting on, I couldn't agree more. And I'm so, so sorry for your pain and suffering. I'm sorry death seemed like the only option for you back then. I have been there, albeit for other reasons. I'm so glad you and your wife are reconciling.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JayOwen said:


> Noted, and apologies, I'm stepping back -- I'm getting too worked up.


No worries. Make yourself a nice cup of tea and eat some custard cream biscuits. That'll help you chill. 

Triggering is horrible. 

My own being cheated on was so weird that I am rarely triggered on TAM. But it does happen from time to time.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If you haven't read the thread, it was basically my argument that even wayward spouses, being that they are human beings, have a fundamental right to self-care and self-compassion, and that such would actually enable them to be better healers to their betrayed spouses when they needed to be. The counterargument was that any talk of the wayward spouse feeling anything but self-hatred was a knife in the back of the betrayed.


I do not think of self-care and self-compassion as "rights". IMO, they are fundamental obligations.

People who do not engage in self-care and self-compassion render themselves incapable of offering care and compassion to others.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> No worries. Make yourself a nice cup of tea and eat some custard cream biscuits. That'll help you chill.
> 
> Triggering is horrible.
> 
> My own being cheated on was so weird that I am rarely triggered on TAM. But it does happen from time to time.


Tea and custard cream biscuits.Now it's you who have triggered me.
It would be a thread jack though and I have been warned.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> You remind me of those men that were jocks in high school that always reminisce about the big game even though it was 20 years ago. Like they peaked in high school and it was the best time of their life so they always talk about it, and they look for ways to randomly bring it up.
> 
> Ella it's over. Let it go. Stop finding excuses and ways to bring it back to life. You say you came on this forum because you wanted to talk about your husband. No you didn't. Most of your posts are about your affair that happened years ago. Didn't you get kicked off a forum for keep talking about the affair?
> 
> ...


Agree, and think that maybe Ella, you personally still feel bad about what you did, and you need to forgive yourself. That has nothing to do with anyone else, but you. The title of your thread here seems way off...lol No one in that other thread remotely referred to you as the devil. Cheating has consequences, and not just for the BS. You are suffering your own consequences, now...guilt, shame, etc. Until you reconcile those feelings, you might always have the need to keep discussing your affair. If your husband has forgiven you and truly loves and trusts you, then your need to keep talking about self care, compassion, etc is more about you, than him or anyone else. You don't need our approval or anyone's approval to feel good about yourself. That's probably what led you to have an affair to begin with...you have to heal that part of yourself that needs other people's approval.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Agree, and think that maybe Ella, you personally still feel bad about what you did, and you need to forgive yourself. That has nothing to do with anyone else, but you. The title of your thread here seems way off...lol No one in that other thread remotely referred to you as the devil. Cheating has consequences, and not just for the BS. You are suffering your own consequences, now...guilt, shame, etc. Until you reconcile those feelings, you might always have the need to keep discussing your affair.


The title was hyperbolic and, yes, does reflect what I feel in the aftermath of my infidelity. I feel that perhaps by extending forgiveness and empathy to others who have been where I am, I will be better able to extend it to myself. Or, at the very least, harden myself towards those who would criticise me. I have never thought of compassion and forgiveness to be a thing which I can extend to myself. Even if I could, things like kindness always seem to carry so much more weight then bestowed upon me by someone else, rather than given to myself. 

I realised I could go two ways with this: I could eternally seek to fill the gaping black hole within, which A. is impossible and B. could lead me down a very dark path again if I should start to depend too much upon the person who comforts me. Or, I could play healer to those _like_ me, giving to them what I cannot give to myself, and heal myself by feeling gratified that I am healing others. I chose the latter path because not only does it really feel good to help other people, there's virtually no risk that I should become overly attached to anyone whom I comfort. I only form strong co-dependent bonds with white knights, not damsels or dudes in distress.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely _why_.
> If I may paste the last thing I wrote on the other thread


Most of us see that pain you talk about is very basic consequences for very bad actions. This being the very basic step in understanding the magnitude of what they have done. It's actually a very good and healthy thing for a WS to experience. No one should attempt to minimize it, at least at first. They need to learn from it. Just like the pain you feel when you put your hand in a fire is a good thing. It's a warning to you. If a child did this and you could some how shut off the pain center in it's brain, it may lead the child to do the exact thing again and in the process lose it's hand. Pain is not necessarily a bad thing. In many cases it is good and healthy, as is shame. Oh how much our society would benefit from more shame in it. 

The trigger is because the pain is disproportionate (much smaller) to the pain the BS suffers, and the BS is innocent. Plus almost all WS are selfish and self-centered, that doesn't change without years of work. So almost all of the time part of the pain is the WS yearning to return to the sins that have cause irreparable damage to the BS. The feeling is. You are yearning for the very thing that has almost killed me and changed my life for the worse? What kind of monster are you? You are supposed to love and protect me! 

I would reminder you Ella that the pain you feel when thinking about the trauma of the stuff the other man did to you is similar to what most BS feel about the infidelity they suffered. Same types of lies same types of manipulation. If they try to R they are trying to R with the very person who caused them such pain. Seeing their WS sad because they can't continue to behave in the very same manner that caused such pain is going to trigger most. Your husband kind of missed a lot of that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

drifting on said:


> If you could honestly show compassion to my wife AND THE OM, then you are a far better person then I. Not that I'm some great person, not that I'm better then anyone else, but I just can't give compassion to OM.


This leads to another great philosophical discussion does everyone deserve compassion? From the Christian stand point the answer is no. We all deserve none. Compassion is seen as a gift that is undeserved but given anyway.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> "_Don't you understand that he did this to you? He's not your lover, he's your _abuser. _We're here to help you._" They all had a battered woman narrative, and to them I fit that role.


When you post stuff like this Ella I always want to ask you. What if he was your lover would that have made what you did any less wrong? Whether the AP was Gandhi (what irony if you know about Gandhi and his treatment of women) or the Devil has nothing to do with your infidelity. You broke your promise.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> When you post stuff like this Ella I always want to ask you. What if he was your lover would that have made what you did any less wrong? Whether the AP was Gandhi (what irony if you know about Gandhi and his treatment of women) or the Devil has nothing to do with your infidelity. You broke your promise.


And to that I have no defense. I never have. I will say as I have been saying, that the part of my Affair where I flirted with the other man and fell for him, before the abuse started, was entirely, fully, and 100% my fault and my responsibility. It was selfish and short-sighted, and I have no defense. I broke my vows to the man I promised to love. My actions could have and should have damaged him irreparably. We are phenomenally lucky I didn't cause him more pain than I did. It is still my duty and my honor to help him deal with whatever triggers he may have stemming from it for the rest of our lives.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> And to that I have no defense. I never have. I will say as I have been saying, that the part of my Affair where I flirted with the other man and fell for him, before the abuse started, was entirely, fully, and 100% my fault and my responsibility. It was selfish and short-sighted, and I have no defense. I broke my vows to the man I promised to love. *My actions could have and should have damaged him irreparably. *We are phenomenally lucky I didn't cause him more pain than I did. It is still my duty and my honor to help him deal with whatever triggers he may have stemming from it for the rest of our lives.


Why do you think the bolded, Ella?

Why "should" he have been damaged by what you did? And why irreparably?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Why do you think the bolded, Ella?
> 
> Why "should" he have been damaged by what you did? And why irreparably?


Because it would seem every other betrayed spouse I've come across has been damaged, if not irreparably, then at least permanently. Statistically speaking, it's a miracle my husband wasn't hurt more.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Because it would seem every other betrayed spouse I've come across has been damaged, if not irreparably, then at least permanently. Statistically speaking, it's a miracle my husband wasn't hurt more.


I don't think he gives away his power as easily as some, Ella. If he were emotionally dependent on you, he may have reacted more like other betrayed spouses you have read about.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> And to that I have no defense. I never have. I will say as I have been saying, that the part of my Affair where I flirted with the other man and fell for him, before the abuse started, was entirely, fully, and 100% my fault and my responsibility. It was selfish and short-sighted, and I have no defense. I broke my vows to the man I promised to love. My actions could have and should have damaged him irreparably. I am phenomenally lucky I didn't cause him more pain than I did. It is still my duty and my honor to help him deal with whatever triggers he may have stemming from it for the rest of our lives.


Again this goes back to what I have said about separating the two. You don't do that, you bring up the rightfully sympathetic part of your story and always attach that to your cheating. They have nothing to do with each other, other then one action was brought on the other. You cheated and betrayed your spouse. Full stop. A man abused you full stop. 

The cheating was a active choice you made. The other was a result of something someone did to you. 

Until you start to think of your own cheating without muddling the waters with what this man did to you you will never really fully understand or heal from it. So when you talk about all the people who were helping you, they were NOT helping because the had sympathy for you as a cheater. They were helping you because of the abuse you suffered. If you had not been abused you would have gotten a lot less sympathy, probably none, and truthfully you don't deserve a lot of sympathy in that instance. 

Again none of the compassion you got was because people felt bad for you because you decided to betray your spouse. Again until you understand that both things, your abuse, and your cheating are not he same thing you will not get it. Almost all of your healing you talk about here is healing from abuse. I would contend that you are still trying to understand and heal from the idea that you did such an awful thing to the person who loves you. You haven't dealt with that because you haven't separated it. 

So most of the pain and the healing you are talking about even in this thread are really not about being a WS or infidelity. The pain you talk about here are pains from abuse, because you equate the two you equate the healing as well. But you are wrong to equate the two. This is where the disconnect is for you and the posters. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. 

Compartmentalize the pain you feel and ONLY feel for cheating on your husband. That is similar to what any cheater feels. Do you believe you deserve to pamper yourself for that pain, or do you believe that you deserve all the pain you feel for doing that? When you think of what you did do you think you need to take time for yourself? Or do you think you should work really hard because of the wrong you did?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Let's see if we can find other real life situations to compare Ella's to:

1. Marla Maples is very publicly chasing Ivana for her forgiveness. she has been publicly quoted saying that it's for Ivana's sake that she is asking for it: Donald Trump Ex Marla Maples Hopes Ivana Trump Can Forgive Affair Scandal

Is Marla right?


2. At the end of WWII as Soviet forces were making their way east, it's no secret the particularly crude way they treated the Germans........ no Geneva convention principles applied here. Germans know not to b.itch and moan about that. 

do you think the Germans self-effacing attitude here is warranted?

Anybody else have some examples to help Ella?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I don't think he gives away his power as easily as some, Ella. If he were emotionally dependent on you, he may have reacted more like other betrayed spouses you have read about.


This is an excellent post.Op maybe he just isn't that bothered and your problems may not be as much in the past as you think.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Let's see if we can find other real life situations to compare Ella's to:
> 
> 1. Marla Maples is very publicly chasing Ivana for her forgiveness. she has been publicly quoted saying that it's for Ivana's sake that she is asking for it: Donald Trump Ex Marla Maples Hopes Ivana Trump Can Forgive Affair Scandal
> 
> ...


If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany, implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, and that I'm deserving of my pain? 

There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany,* implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, *and that I'm deserving of my pain?
> 
> There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.


My own beliefs are quite the opposite. But I have put the question to you.

Also, what's your opinion of Marla Maples?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Again this goes back to what I have said about separating the two. You don't do that, you bring up the rightfully sympathetic part of your story and always attach that to your cheating. They have nothing to do with each other, other then one action was brought on the other. You cheated and betrayed your spouse. Full stop. A man abused you full stop.
> 
> The cheating was a active choice you made. The other was a result of something someone did to you.
> 
> ...


I only mention the OM's abuse so that I can make a distinction between the part I am willing to own and the part that I will not own. I fear if I didn't add the asterisk-marked exemption for the nonconsensual parts of the relationship, I would be wrongly talking the blame for my own abuse. I will not allow myself to become one of those victims who believes it is her fault, for that would take away my power to resist such horrible men in the future.

Also, as to the cheating which I am willing to own, seriously, can't I take time to nurture myself and THEN come out and work like the ****ens to redeem myself? Or can't I work to repair my marriage and then heal myself when the day's work is done? Or can't I work on myself AND heal myself in the same moment? Reading "how to help your spouse" and approaching it gently and mindfully and compassionately might be killing both birds with one stone.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> My own beliefs are quite the opposite. But I have put the question to you.
> 
> Also, what's your opinion of Marla Maples?


I have not read anything of their story, so I wouldn't know, but I hope there is forgiveness and healing all around. 

And no, one ill turn does not deserve another. Whether in war or love, one must kill abuse and wrongdoing with mercy, not cruelty or bitterness


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> This is an excellent post.Op maybe he just isn't that bothered and your problems may not be as much in the past as you think.


I think your problems are entirely in the past, Ella. I don't think your husband is hanging onto any of this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany, implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, and that I'm deserving of my pain?
> 
> There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.


There is probably too much bitterness in the betrayeds to have any real dialogue, Ella.

Please do not internalize their pain. It does not belong to you.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

From both therapy and the book "Not just Friends" - there is the discussion about the grieving process from the wayward. Its still crappy to the WS, but understandable - human feelings are also involved.

For those trying for real R, that process will take a while. Hence, from the time we went from therapy, talk at a park, to my wife's place was her pulling the trigger to tell the POSOM to no more contact. The other times, I had tried to dictate the NC process and rules (way too early). But with the past experience, here and the book (She hadn't read "Not Just Friends" yet) - I put it on her, to SEE how *SHE* was going to do it, to determine if she was being legit or full of crap. I did not tell her what to say or what to write (she did show me the text before sending it) and when he called, she asked me first before answering. It was loud enough for me to hear his words. She deleted him, blocked him, then went through her phone to delete his pics on FB and memory. (I actually have his photos because I backed up her previous phone)

She still had some tears when she was finishing up the deleting process... but she told me she was angry for having them. Just has I still think about the affair, so does she - as we had talked about it in detail during and after our last few therapy sessions. Random thoughts that come and go. She still apologizes for her actions today as some things trigger her.

Of course, there are the WS that never R. As we all know, very very few ever become real relationships. Waywards go cold or crazy or vindictive or depressed when the dust settles. I forgot if it was here or elsewhere, a wayward wife got divorced and involved with druggie guy(s). He got the kids. Some time later, she realized her mistake and tried to come back "home", but he was done with her. So she went back to the OM (if I remember right) about the 1 year after D-Day, she along with OM died in a car crash - she was poor, bad health and unwanted.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

do you think your husbands non reaction to your affair in some way means he doesn't love you? I can't understand why you have reconciled but continue to make threads about understanding your position. He may at some point break down and terminate the marriage or he may never have another thought about it. But you are definitely giving this too much headspace, time and emotion. He forgave you, you are defiantly lucky he did for whatever his reason may be. But you have to accept that decision and just move on in my opinion.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> do you think your husbands non reaction to your affair in some way means he doesn't love you? I can't understand why you have reconciled but continue to make threads about understanding your position. He may at some point break down and terminate the marriage or he may never have another thought about it. But you are definitely giving this too much headspace, time and emotion. He forgave you, you are defiantly lucky he did for whatever his reason may be. But you have to accept that decision and just move on in my opinion.



Ella, are looking for certain words from your husband or from TAM before you can move on?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> Ella, are looking for certain words from your husband or from TAM before you can move on?


I don't know. I don't know if certain things can be moved on from. The only other traumatic event in my life took ten years- almost to the day- to get over. I would have to stop believing in any part of myself, that I was at fault for the abuse I received. I would have to believe in my own goodness and innocence, and I do not, deep down. I would have to believe that I am worthy of all the empathy anyone could ever give me, and that I deserve no one's scorn. I would have to stop remembering the 10th of October, 2014 as the day it all fell apart. I would have to get his voice out of my ears. I would have to get the voices of my mother's friends, of my friends, out of my ears. The accusations and declarations of worthlessness, those would have to be rendered meaningless and obsolete forever. 

All of it would have to be gone. Not just the abuse, but also the infidelity. That for which I blame myself. I would have to somehow be absolved of it forever. That does not, from where I am standing, seem possible. So the best I can do, for now, is to give other wayward spouses the absolution which I cannot give to myself.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

My ww spending time away when I kicked her out, time for her to think and deciding to do her own research (this was before seeing the MC to start on R), the fog was lifting. (And I'll admit there were a few who PM'd me to retain a bit of hope)
She told me she was starting to see the fantasy. (It was a fun fantasy for her, but not for me of course.) She was talking to family as well and was becoming depressed with her life choices about 10 days before she asked for R. She was figuring out on her own that I was right about the fog and her actions - which she thought were original. Deep in the affair, she had said "We have a special connection you cannot understand!" between her and the OM. The reality that was becoming clear was that the OM wasn't true love, just sex and chemicals. That I was making more efforts to take care of her and our son, long before and currently than any way the OM was. Actual love. The more she read about the fog on her own, the more she saw the truth. That I wasn't the bad guy she thought I was. I still had my issues and still improving myself.

I still hope for the best for us. Things are different, still. But by all means, the relationship I have with HER today is still healthier and more respectful than others I see around me in RL or online. She still beats herself up sometimes and I support helping her in the NOW and for the future.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TaDor said:


> From both therapy and the book "Not just Friends" - there is the discussion about the grieving process from the wayward. Its still crappy to the WS, but understandable - human feelings are also involved.
> 
> For those trying for real R, that process will take a while. Hence, from the time we went from therapy, talk at a park, to my wife's place was her pulling the trigger to tell the POSOM to no more contact. The other times, I had tried to dictate the NC process and rules (way too early). But with the past experience, here and the book (She hadn't read "Not Just Friends" yet) - I put it on her, to SEE how *SHE* was going to do it, to determine if she was being legit or full of crap. I did not tell her what to say or what to write (she did show me the text before sending it) and when he called, she asked me first before answering. It was loud enough for me to hear his words. She deleted him, blocked him, then went through her phone to delete his pics on FB and memory. (I actually have his photos because I backed up her previous phone)
> 
> ...


Unless she really fixes what is broken in her she is vulnerable to do it again, and you are taking a big risk. This place and others are riddled with people whose WS apologized did all the right things and in 5 or 10 years later they were right back where you were in even worse shape. She needs a lot more the being sorry to change. WS are always a greater risk because they lack character. Character takes a lifetime to build and a lifetime to change.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I don't know. I don't know if certain things can be moved on from. The only other traumatic event in my life took ten years- almost to the day- to get over. I would have to stop believing in any part of myself, that I was at fault for the abuse I received. I would have to believe in my own goodness and innocence, and I do not, deep down. I would have to believe that I am worthy of all the empathy anyone could ever give me, and that I deserve no one's scorn. I would have to stop remembering the 10th of October, 2014 as the day it all fell apart. I would have to get his voice out of my ears. I would have to get the voices of my mother's friends, of my friends, out of my ears. The accusations and declarations of worthlessness, those would have to be rendered meaningless and obsolete forever.
> 
> All of it would have to be gone. Not just the abuse, but also the infidelity. That for which I blame myself. I would have to somehow be *absolved of it forever. *That does not, from where I am standing, seem possible. So the best I can do, for now, is to give other wayward spouses the absolution which I cannot give to myself.


You don't get to do that. Only the wronged party, your husband, can do that and it sounds like he did you just don't want to accept it. The fact that you have remorse and guilt about this may mean you won't do it again. Most waywards don't haven any of that kinda self reflection. Why not concentrate on teaching that instead of this "forgive themselves" thing. Accountability on what they did is a better life lesson.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I am aware of that. We also see people who rug-sweep for decades and stay together in a bad marriage... We have talked about this. I have run this through my head. I've asked few a number of times in the beginning of this that she has to be ALL IN. Not just for our son, either. I know myself in that I also know that I would never trust my wife or ANY future woman 100%. I'll say this, her drinking was a major problem in our relationship. And all these months of her not being drunk on a daily basis is WONDERFUL. She is very clear minded compared to before. Her moods are very stable compared to before since she's not having drug interactions anymore. So yeah, honestly our relationship is healthier now than before the affair, sucks how we got there but it's easily true. Before the affair - I was considering break up options - had things continued on the path (and let's say there was no affair) then she'd likely be dead or we would have broken up by now anyway. Twice before the affair and 3 times during - her drinking and medicated use had put her in danger, with some ER visits in that she could have died if I wasn't there to help and solve these issues. I didn't know the full scope of the problem back then.

Being clear-minded, her character is a lot better. She is a much better mom to our child than she was before, more education driven, more protective and more aware of his needs. We are more family oriented rather than club/party. We stayed home for New Years. We are doing better still since we moved and remaking our home. She is smiling more today like she used to when we first meet. 

We still have normal couples issues, but overall - we really talk more, share our feelings more. I hope this continues to improve and lasts.

Ugh, I'll update on my thread.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Ella said:


> How exactly is sympathy akin to invalidation? They are the opposite! One must first understand someone's pain, thereby validating it at least in some aspect, before they can show sympathy.


First, on the other thread you sympathized with my pain and tried to validate my pain instead of addressing anything else I posted. I'm not in pain. I'm not bitter. I'm happily recovered for two decades with my lovely former wayward wife. I've also got several former close wayward friends that I've helped coach through and out of the wayward mindset. Showing uninvited sympathy and "validation" without reason and for non-existent pain is a highly manipulative diversion and invalidation technique.


It's funny, I did a short search of jld's posting history earlier today for an example to give you {recalling I'd seen her do it several times} and all I really had to do was wait a few hours.

Here's jld's recent post:



jld said:


> There is probably too much bitterness in the betrayeds to have any real dialogue, Ella.
> 
> Please do not internalize their pain. It does not belong to you.


Supposedly ALL of the betrayed's here are too bitter and in pain to be able to converse with you and you should, according to JLD, dismiss our opinions and constructive criticism because we are, seemingly, just trying to make internalize our pain. Pretty invalidating post, wouldn't you say?


But speaking of pain and bitterness~~~

You may not have noticed just a short bit earlier in the thread JLD dropped this completely cruel and mean post implying that the betrayed here at TAM aren't like your husband. 



jld said:


> I don't think he gives away his power as easily as some, Ella. If he were emotionally dependent on you, he may have reacted more like other betrayed spouses you have read about.


Apparently we were all too emotionally dependent on our wayward wives and we've all given away our power, so our betrayal circumstances have made us all uniquely mean and maladjusted. She tries to distance herself from actually saying "the betrayed persons here at TAM" because that might get her in trouble for name 
calling or otherwise being too blatantly mean so she just refers to "betrayed spouses you have read about" while slamming us all with the inference just the same.

Isn't jld the one that encouraged you to write about this and start threads discussing this stuff here at TAM in the first place??? Maybe she's co-opting you to internalize and express HER pain, anger and bitterness. She's posted here almost 20,000 posts, so she certainly knew exactly the responses you were going to get here in "Coping with Infidelity". IMO, she set you up, let you take the heat so she could do some drive-by posts to drop bombs on us mean, bitter betrayed spouses. Pretty cruel and much more cruel than the MAJORITY of betrayed spouses that posted to you actually TRYING to help you {granted some are much more triggery and it got super repetitive and off-topic here and there but MOST were trying to get you to understand why running a prison ministry in a victim recovery forum is/was a bad idea but it's a free country and your threads are more on topic here than the dozens of "cheater never change threads" so post away as long as you don't mind all us bitter betrayed who happen to be here too and may chime in here and there}


Perhaps, if you do write some kind of self-help thing for waywards maybe try to refer to withdrawal from the affair partner in more physiological terms. Like a drug or alcohol addict going cold turkey and "withdrawing" from their nasty and destructive substance of choice versus the wayward needing to "process their feelings for the OM/OW" and all that focus on how they need to legitimately and painstakingly put the relationship behind them like an old real ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend {versus a paramour} before they truly build a new one WITH THEIR GOD GIVEN SPOUSE. Withdrawal is a normal response to the absence of a habitual behavior whether good or bad. If the betrayed spouse left them and abandoned them {say, for discovering their cheating} many wayward spouses would likewise go through withdrawal from their betrayed spouse {I've seen this happen even after rationalizing how much they hate them}. There's nothing special about the affair partner, it's just what humans do and go through when they end a relationship with anyone. Further, my wife and I, when coaching a wayward spouse, will encourage them, should they even THINK about the affair partner to envision a "stop sign" and actively train themselves to stop the behavior. Aversion techniques help too. If the affair partner is referred to they should be referred to as the affair partner's betrayed spouse's {first name}, wife/husband. The faster they "process" through "withdrawal" the better and they certainly should be encouraged not to lean upon their betrayed spouse for sympathy and empathy as they "withdrawal", the more they "suffer in silence" the more their betrayed spouse might actually be empathetic {seeing them suffering and conflicted while demonstrating restraint by not dumping such emotions on their victim}.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TaDor said:


> I am aware of that. We also see people who rug-sweep for decades and stay together in a bad marriage... We have talked about this. I have run this through my head. I've asked few a number of times in the beginning of this that she has to be ALL IN. Not just for our son, either. I know myself in that I also know that I would never trust my wife or ANY future woman 100%. I'll say this, her drinking was a major problem in our relationship. And all these months of her not being drunk on a daily basis is WONDERFUL. She is very clear minded compared to before. Her moods are very stable compared to before since she's not having drug interactions anymore. So yeah, honestly our relationship is healthier now than before the affair, sucks how we got there but it's easily true. Before the affair - I was considering break up options - had things continued on the path (and let's say there was no affair) then she'd likely be dead or we would have broken up by now anyway. Twice before the affair and 3 times during - her drinking and medicated use had put her in danger, with some ER visits in that she could have died if I wasn't there to help and solve these issues. I didn't know the full scope of the problem back then.
> 
> Being clear-minded, her character is a lot better. She is a much better mom to our child than she was before, more education driven, more protective and more aware of his needs. We are more family oriented rather than club/party. We stayed home for New Years. We are doing better still since we moved and remaking our home. She is smiling more today like she used to when we first meet.
> 
> ...


Just don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make sure you will be able to survive if old habits creep in. Stories like yours scare the hell out of me, but then again you probably know my MO by now. Anyway back to this thread.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion.


Me personally? I go back and forth between apathy and even pity for her. 

With a rare occasional bout of thankfulness for giving me the reason I needed to dump her ass.

My life is so much better now with out hahaha. I love it!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Quality said:


> First, on the other thread you sympathized with my pain and tried to validate my pain instead of addressing anything else I posted. I'm not in pain. I'm not bitter. I'm happily recovered for two decades with my lovely former wayward wife. I've also got several former close wayward friends that I've helped coach through and out of the wayward mindset. Showing uninvited sympathy and "validation" without reason and for non-existent pain is a highly manipulative diversion and invalidation technique.
> 
> 
> It's funny, I did a short search of jld's posting history earlier today for an example to give you {recalling I'd seen her do it several times} and all I really had to do was wait a few hours.
> ...


I know it's been some time since I posted; I've torn a muscle in my shoulder and have been quite unable to type for the last several days. I have actually seen a guide like you mentioned for wayward spouses on SurvivingInfidelity, in which the authoress encourages her fellow waywards to consider their affair partner to be like a drug, and the longing for them to be like withdrawal. It was actually that article which inspired me to write mine. In her article, she wrote,



> I felt a connection. The only way I can describe it is haunted, where I 'd feel like he was in the room with me. When one of those waves hit it was really hard. But I just decided that a connection didn't mean I had to keep being connected.


I can't find the other things that she posted, but I recall reading that her pain-this emptiness she felt without her OM- got so bad she would have to pull over to the side of the road when she was driving and cry and scream. She would lock herself in the bathroom at work and cry to her God to take her mental and emotional anguish away from her.

When I first read that (and I will find it later, mark me) I actually had to put my phone down a couple times and process. I personally didn't feel that kind of pain over my own AP, but anyone who's ever lost anyone dear can relate to that. The anguish of grief is universal. 

Technically, every emotional pleasure you can get from anything is all just dopamine and serotonin flooding the brain. Every grief, from the minute to the life-shattering, is due to neurochemicals.To say that the affair is merely a chemical reaction is true, but so is eating ice cream. To call it withdrawal doesn't seem to quite do justice to the amount of sheer turmoil this woman (and thousands like her) are in when they lose their AP.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

> Anyway, the point is that I'm generally able to see both sides of almost any story, and have compassion for most people. Even if I dislike them or find their actions distasteful or immoral, I can usually understand to some extent what made them feel led to act that way.
> I would make for a very poor prosecutor, because were I to be at a murder trial, I could comfort the victim and the perpetrator in the same hour! "I know you didn't mean to kill him", I would say, to the shock and horror of the bereaved.
> 
> But the devil used to be God's favorite angel, and there are so many people crying in courtrooms, be they murder trials or divorce


You are very kind. Remain kind. Keep up the charity shown to all. Life will harden you....soon enough. 
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................
Yes, and God is the only one who can forgive Satan. He is the Father of the original Wayward.

All manner of things come from the Creator. Good things and bad things. These are labels that we use to organize our lives, survive in our short lives.

It was Jesus who said: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". A true statement from God. But this line of thought is not so helpful for [us] lesser beings.

It is one thing to "forgive". It is another thing to understand human weakness and turn your cheek, only to be slaughtered for your beliefs.

Transgressions need consequences and punishment. 

A puppy that pees on the floor gets the newspaper "whack" across the nose to prevent the "bad" behavior. What he did was not bad in reality, but bad in situational context.

People are selfish and violent. This is reality. But in context "civilization" cannot survive a lack of law and order. 

Wayward behavior violates the vows given on ones wedding day. Broken vows can be forgiven intellectually, rarely emotionally.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Hope your shoulder feels better.


One of the problems with SI is they have a separate protected wayward forum. Trying to navigate your way through this wayward labyrinth by relying on the advice, experience and supposed wisdom of only other similarly lost and wayward thinking persons who continue to self-label as wayward is, IMO, a very non-productive way to go about healing and restoring oneself or one's marriage.

Doesn't mean everything ever said by any wayward is worthless and this thread here at TAM, though repetitive and sometimes a bit harsh, is ten times better FOR YOU to be participating in than a similar thread on SI where everyone would just be telling you how awesome it is and giving you undeserved kudo's and hugs as that's the only currency they have there {versus wisdom, accountability, productive criticism}.

On the other hand, it's really an exercise in futility for a self-labeling wayward to post here indefinitely without always feeling like they are less than and can NEVER be nice enough or post enough caveats without triggering some "mean and bitter" betrayed spouse who takes offense to something such wayward posted.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> To call it withdrawal doesn't seem to quite do justice to the amount of sheer turmoil this woman (and thousands like her) are in when they lose their AP.


This is an example. I'm not bothered personally by it one bit and after just 400 posts I'm certain it's innocuous and unintended, but certainly somewhere there's one betrayed spouse somewhere who could or would read the above sentence/phrasing and be all like "sheer turmoil....when they lose THEIR ap" ~~ OMG, whatever, suck it up buttercup" and carry on with "the AP is stolen merchandise, someone's else's husband or wife and not "THEIRS" to lose in the first place. Despite it being a completely accurate sentence and innocuous phrasing when posted by a former wayward spouse it just could sound a bit insensitive to some betrayed spouse. Then you may feel bad because as hard as you try for admiration and to be kind here and always coach and proof-read your wording and posts, you just always somehow seem to be keep getting knocked down, attacked and accused of being this horrible human being OR you end up NOT feeling bad and thinking it's "our" problem {"our" being the collective "bitter" betrayed spouse population here} so you then perpetuate the "us" waywards versus "them" the betrayeds board wars that pop up here and there OR you end up liking it as a form of self-punishment OR you just enjoy the attention and debates you can provocate on the internet {so pushing hurt buttons while feigning kindness is intentional}.

I don't pretend to know the answer. Before my wife ever thought about writing her own "guide to former wayward spouses" type article, she had read enough by others to realize it was a bad idea. Even on a private Christian forum it is/was a bad idea. She came to peace with the fact that some betrayed spouses are NEVER going to be OK with her or her opinions and that's was/is OK with her. It didn't mean such betrayed spouses were mean or bitter or horribly unforgiving persons. It didn't mean there was something wrong with "them" and it certainly wasn't her responsibility or obligation to convince "them" otherwise. She'd earned that consequence and didn't require or need to seek the approval or acceptance of every betrayed spouse in the world in order to feel OK about herself or her behavior. In other words, she's completely on team betrayed spouse 100%, and in real life, it's me that is much more kind and empathetic to the wayward spouses in the couples we coach.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I can't find the other things that she posted, but I recall reading that her pain-this emptiness she felt without her OM- got so bad she would have to pull over to the side of the road when she was driving and cry and scream. She would lock herself in the bathroom at work and cry to her God to take her mental and emotional anguish away from her.


I could never stay married to a person who would feel that way while married to me. I just think I should be worth more then that. I guess I am selfish like that. I have to be the one, the only one.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I could never stay married to a person who would feel that way while married to me. I just think I should be worth more then that.
> 
> I guess I am selfish like that. I have to be the one, the only one.


Sigh ~~~ Again an exercise in speculation since you've never been faced with such dilemma nor do we even know what the original poster of those words on SI was feeling anguish over at the time. Such anguish might have been over being played for such a fool by a manipulative OM like the OP's here and she was self-punishing because the completely natural physiological feelings of withdrawal were making her think of and somehow miss OM despite otherwise feeling nothing but disgust for the man {i.e. - knowing OM was NOT the one}. 

Also, for someone so staunchly independent, why express such co-dependent need to always and forever "be the one, the only one"? Seems a risky proposition for someone with your intimacy and FOO issues to base their self-worth simply on the feelings of their spouse.

My wife's batting 98.2% {about 10,800 out of about 11,000 days} that I was her "one, the only one" which is definitely better than my batting average over the same days where I sometimes mistakenly put my friends, my work, my family, our investments, etc. before her. I LIKE being my wife's "one and only" but I'm not entitled to such feeling, our entire relationship isn't/wasn't dependent on that sole "feeling" nor am I dependent on it personally {I'd be happy either way}.

Also ~~~ "FEELINGS" aren't fact. Just because my wife briefly felt the OM was her destiny and soulmate and some anguish over the end of her stupid affair, didn't make me actually worth less or NOT "the one", in fact. That would imply God made a mistake, which He did not. 

People FEEL stuff all the time. We watch television shows and movies that allow us to escape ourselves and sometimes evoke emotions and feelings of "what if that was my life" all the time. I have to wonder how much thought policing you've actually done on your wife because she's certainly put herself before you many times whether you know it or not. Women fantasize about another alternative life all the time or, sometimes, they get neglected or FEEL neglected by their spouse {who maybe is too busy posting on SI, TAM and Reddit about his ex-girlfriend that cheated on him 20 years ago} that they FEEL they "selfishly are entitled to more" since their husband doesn't treat them as "their one and only" thereby rationalizing and justifying having an affair in the first place.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Sigh ~~~ Again an exercise in speculation since you've never been faced with such dilemma


Quit stalking me!

I am sure every person you give your advice to you have had exactly the same experience. Which is a stupid position to have anyway as we could go through exactly the same thing and your feelings about it would be very different then mine. What would work for you might not work for me. 

I am not sure how you can coach couples when you are so strident in your opinions. 

I have no intimacy and FOO issues, the only one who has issues here is you, and it's quite obvious that you are insecure in your position. That is why you must make it a point to critique mine so strongly. 

Seriously I can't even state a opinion about myself without you writing a rebuttal. 

"thou doth protest too much"

Seriously dude the personal stuff, it's getting weird and really reflects poorly on you.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Quit stalking me!
> 
> I am sure every person you give your advice to you have had exactly the same experience.


Ummmm ~ you posted 10 minutes after me today on this thread.



killme said:


> I have no intimacy and FOO issues, the only one who has issues here is you, and it's quite obvious that you are insecure in your position. That is why you must make it a point to critique mine so strongly.


Please do not psychoanalyze me. 

I'm only critiquing your outrageously speculative, ridiculously naive and irrational perspective here. I may or may not have issues, but one of them is NOT denying the reality that some couples happily recover from infidelity and thrive while others end up divorced due to infidelity and find happiness and contentment elsewhere or as single persons nor the absolute reality that some waywards repent and become useful, productive, worthwhile, important, loving human beings again and some waywards don't.

Also, I have no personal insecurity about my position or life whatsoever. Thy doth thinketh too highly of thyself. I've just experienced being a betrayed husband and I've worked with many betrayed spouses over the years to know what it feels like during the actual moments such person opens up on the internet to solicit advice and help from a group of persons they believe have all shared a similar experience. You haven't, so you're just speculating about what you'd do, need or want. You're not their peer. You've never been anywhere near "being in their shoes" and they have no idea or notice {other than my posts} that you have an agenda to promote divorce in all such circumstances {including the use of passive aggressive threads and attacks poking at their situational insecurities}

Fortunately, more and more persons are becoming aware that the internet is a dangerous place to seek out help and advice and they need to be very discerning about who they listen to. It's unfortunate but when the politics of agendas interfere with just the common curtesy of being honest and helpful to a hurting person in need, everyone loses out. 

I WISH I could really understand WHY you do it? Why you feel the ends justify the means?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Please do not psychoanalyze me.


You started it. What a hypocrite you are, you one the least self aware persons on this board. You don't even state my position correctly, even though I have stated like 20 times to you.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You started it. What a hypocrite you are, you one the least self aware persons on this board. You don't even state my position correctly, even though I have stated like 20 times to you.


I was being sardonic.

You complained about my "psychoanalyzing" you on another thread just the other day so I was making an equally ridiculous joke about your attempt at mindreading above. 

Further, saying "I started it" is funny since you've been doing it to me and every recovered betrayed spouse since you got on this topic. 

Then again, I'm not self-aware, so maybe I'm wrong.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Oh my gods, everyone, I just found the most amazing workbook! It deals with fear of loss/fear of abandonment and lack of self-love. It is PERFECT for wayward spouses because it encourages one to address all the "whys" as to why the WS cheated and why the WS needs "ego-kibbles" and validation from other people... WITHOUT being judgmental at ALL. (and without using degrading terms like "ego-kibbles"!) It mostly deals with when someone you love leaves you, but it can be seamlessly applied to situations wherein _you_ must leave someone you love, such as breaking up with an AP to save your marriage.

It explains that the feelings of loss of a romantic partner (be it the BS or the AP or both) are perfectly natural and normal, and teaches you how to nurture your innermost needs, "pamper your wounds" without wallowing in despair, and be okay with you as you are.

It's called, "The Abandonment Recovery Workbook: Guidance through the 5 Stages of Healing from Abandonment, Heartbreak, and Loss"

I have just ordered it on Amazon and I'm working through the beginning pages right now. it's like an interactive diary. It's perfect and I love it. It looks like it'll be perfect for working through the feelings of loss I feel when my friends aren't there for me like I expect them to be, and great for working through the remnants of my shame with the OM. I'm probably going to share this with every WS I ever meet. I'll report back more later. OMG, I'm so happy I found this.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Oh my gods, everyone, I just found the most amazing workbook! It deals with fear of loss/fear of abandonment and lack of self-love. It is PERFECT for wayward spouses because it encourages one to address all the "whys" as to why the WS cheated and why the WS needs "ego-kibbles" and validation from other people... WITHOUT being judgmental at ALL. (and without using degrading terms like "ego-kibbles"!) It mostly deals with when someone you love leaves you, but it can be seamlessly applied to situations wherein _you_ must leave someone you love, such as breaking up with an AP to save your marriage.
> 
> It explains that the feelings of loss of a romantic partner (be it the BS or the AP or both) are perfectly natural and normal, and teaches you how to nurture your innermost needs, "pamper your wounds" without wallowing in despair, and be okay with you as you are.
> 
> ...


Seriously. I hope this is sarcasm. Your shoulder was so hurting you couldn't even type a couple days ago so there's no way you ordered and received this book yet. Plus, you're a couple of years out from your affair so any physiological withdrawal feelings you may be having over such loss at this point would be clearly intentional. This has to be a joke to provoke all us "mean and bitter" betrayed. I just can't fathom that after all that's been said on this thread, you MUST know how hurtful just the workbook title alone would be to a betrayed spouse.

I was one of the calmest most gentle empathetic betrayed husbands EVER and I'd have HATED that book and the thought of my wife needing/wanting to seriously work some bullcrap 5 stage self-help recovery book because OM abandoned her instead of a 200 stage book about marital recovery would just be too much.

In MOST homes, 5 stages to get over your friggin' boyfriend will rightfully end up being 5 bounces down the front steps to the front curb if that book isn't ripped up and thrown away immediately. 

Not to mention, any book that breaks things down into seeming convenient steps like that is bunk. It appeals to our nature of liking checklists and checking things off once completed. it's like the Kubler-Ross 5 stages of grief bullcrap ~ it correctly identifies typical feelings after the loss of a loved one but putting them in any order like there is any natural or normal flow to it is a misnomer.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Quality said:


> Seriously. I hope this is sarcasm. Your shoulder was so hurting you couldn't even type a couple days ago so there's no way you ordered and received this book yet. Plus, you're a couple of years out from your affair so any physiological withdrawal feelings you may be having over such loss at this point would be clearly intentional. This has to be a joke to provoke all us "mean and bitter" betrayed. I just can't fathom that after all that's been said on this thread, you MUST know how hurtful just the workbook title alone would be to a betrayed spouse.
> 
> I was one of the calmest most gentle empathetic betrayed husbands EVER and I'd have HATED that book and the thought of my wife needing/wanting to seriously work some bullcrap 5 stage self-help recovery book because OM abandoned her instead of a 200 stage book about marital recovery would just be too much.
> 
> ...


I am not bring sarcastic at all. I ordered the e-book version of the workbook as an instant download, and "fill it out" by alternating between typing and a speech to text program. It takes a little longer to type than usual, but since I was injured just under a week ago, I'm getting better and managing fine. 

I ordered and received the e workbook a couple hours ago. And I know that the five stages of grief aren't natural, orderly, linear stages. They're just categories of different types of feelings, and you can feel different "stages" in different orders, or even be in two or the "stages" at once. 

And you're right, right now I'm not using the workbook in reference to my OM. The person I'm trying to get over at present is a dear friend whom I had to remove from my life because he defended my abusive OM. It really stung to hear him say I deserved it, and I feel guilty and angry and hurt. When said former friend mentioned the OM's name I was suddenly feeling all that old fear, anger, and shame and I wanted a way to work through it (again) and also feel at peace about losing my former friend. Books can't work miracles, of course, but I imagine this might help me deal with the latest wave of flashbacks and bad feelings. 

But I can see how this book would be useful to help other people deal with getting over the AP. If I had access to it 3 years ago when I actually DID miss the OM and was feeling like I'd die without him (emotionally and literally) I feel like this book would have helped me process. 

I wish I could word this in a way that would be less triggering to you. This is just what I've found that might help me deal with co-dependent fears of abandonment, and learn to work through my triggers, bad feelings, fears, bad memories, etc without needing to seek outside validation.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MODERATOR NOTICE

OK, folks, not pointing fingers at any one individual person, but can we ensure that everyone is treated with respect, please?

Thank you.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I have only personally known two prolific, cheaters in my lifetime: My first W and my RSXW!

If either of them ever want to seek out the sympathy of old Arb, I highly suggest that they each consult Webster's, looking somewhere between the entries "sh*t" and "syphillis!"*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If I had access to it 3 years ago when I actually DID miss the OM and was feeling like I'd die without him (emotionally and literally) I feel like this book would have helped me process.


I thought you hated you OM?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I thought you hated you OM?


I do, but before then there was a period of time (at least a few months, I think) where I was torn about having to lose him. On one hand, I thought that (while I wasn't willing to use the word "abusive" yet to describe him) he had been unfairly moody and would lash out at me for almost nothing, and I resented the fact that he seemed not to care about my emotions. On the other hand, he had promised me so much- money, wisdom, validation, support- and I (thought I) could have had it all if I'd been brave enough to go live with him. I believed him when he said that I'd never find anyone as wonderful as he was. I didn't understand why I felt so skittish and timid around him since he said he cared for me so much. 

I hadn't yet realised that I felt scared around him because every other sentence out of his mouth was a _threat_ and that he had only promised me all those wonderful things to get me to sleep with him in any and every degrading way he could dream up and be his live-in domestic servant. Once I realised THAT, I started hating his guts. But that was a slow realisation and took weeks of therapy and more weeks of pining after him and still more weeks of wrestling with my conflicting emotions.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I do, but before then there was a period of time (at least a few months, I think) where I was torn about having to lose him. On one hand, I thought that (while I wasn't willing to use the word "abusive" yet to describe him) he had been unfairly moody and would lash out at me for almost nothing, and I resented the fact that he seemed not to care about my emotions. On the other hand, he had promised me so much- money, wisdom, validation, support- and I (thought I) could have had it all if I'd been brave enough to go live with him. I believed him when he said that I'd never find anyone as wonderful as he was. I didn't understand why I felt so skittish and timid around him since he said he cared for me so much.
> 
> I hadn't yet realised that I felt scared around him because every other sentence out of his mouth was a _threat_ and that he had only promised me all those wonderful things to get me to sleep with him in any and every degrading way he could dream up and be his live-in domestic servant. Once I realised THAT, I started hating his guts. But that was a slow realisation and took weeks of therapy and more weeks of pining after him and still more weeks of wrestling with my conflicting emotions.


I got to be honest your story doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How can you be in love and newly married to your husband whom you thought of a as prince charming and at the same time so infatuated with this man who sounds like an ogre. You really weren't into your husband that much right? I don't see how both are possible. 

You always talk about seeing love like Disney and yet you just switched and dropped your husband like old news. Only thing that makes sense is that you just weren't into him like you say you were.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I got to be honest your story doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How can you be in love and newly married to your husband whom you thought of a as prince charming and at the same time so infatuated with this man who sounds like an ogre. You really weren't into your husband that much right? I don't see how both are possible.
> 
> You always talk about seeing love like Disney and yet you just switched and dropped your husband like old news. Only thing that makes sense is that you just weren't into him like you say you were.


It was three years in and the newlywed butterflies were dying for the first time. I didn't know that 1) that happens in all marriages; limerant feelings of infatuation diminish and 2) those feelings are supposed to be revived through continued acts of kindness and romantic gestures. I literally just thought, "Wow, I thought I was supposed to have butterflies every time I look at my husband forever. I never thought I could fall out of love with him... I guess this means we're through."

The OM found me at about that time and told me he could take me out of my home and my marriage before my husband divorced me and left me with nothing, so even if I wasn't compatable with him in every way (or any way) I figured I had better get off the boat as fast as I could while there was still a lifeboat waiting to take me away.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It was three years in and the newlywed butterflies were dying for the first time. I didn't know that 1) that happens in all marriages; limerant feelings of infatuation diminish and 2) those feelings are supposed to be revived through continued acts of kindness and romantic gestures. I literally just thought, "Wow, I thought I was supposed to have butterflies every time I look at my husband forever. I never thought I could fall out of love with him... I guess this means we're through."
> 
> The OM found me at about that time and told me he could take me out of my home and my marriage before my husband divorced me and left me with nothing, so even if I wasn't compatable with him in every way (or any way) I figured I had better get off the boat as fast as I could while there was still a lifeboat waiting to take me away.


So at that point you weren't into him.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> So at that point you weren't into him.


No, I wasn't that into him, you're right. I still acknowledged that he was a wonderful provider and a caring man, but I didn't want to be married to someone for whom (I assumed) I would never feel passion again. Would that I were not so naive and rash and careless back then.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> No, I wasn't that into him, you're right. I still acknowledged that he was a wonderful provider and a caring man, but I didn't want to be married to someone for whom (I assumed) I would never feel passion again. Would that I were not so naive and rash and careless back then.


What if you would never feel passion again. Then what. You seem to be saying, well now you know you can still feel passion so you won't do it again.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Any man who would wish to break up a marriage, is no man at all. But, many women, I'm included...have dated ''bad guys''. I think it comes down not respecting ourselves enough, and the reasons for that are varying and different for every woman, so we attract men and are attracted to men who disrespect us, as well. Once you work on yourself, you no longer attract those types. Please keep working on yourself, Ella...so this never happens again. I hope the best for you and your husband, now.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> What if you would never feel passion again. Then what. You seem to be saying, well now you know you can still feel passion so you won't do it again.


To be perfectly honest, I would end it. In real life, you don't know if or when the passion can come back, so I would probably, realistically, try for several years- go to counselling and read more books and schedule sex and all those things. But if a few years passed and he made me feel nothing but a vague sadness that the love had died, I'd go. And if he stopped feeling passion for me, and we somehow knew he never would again, I'd hope he'd have the decency to let me go. Hopefully I could find someone else who actually liked me, but if not I could see myself living sitcom-style with a roommate or two or four. Maybe we would even stay legally married but both consensually agree to hook up with and/or date other people, opening our relationship up to others and remaining friends. But I am not so much a martyr that I would stay in a monogamous, eternal bond with anyone whom I did not love, and could never love again.

I adore my husband now, and have vacillated between adoring a lot and adoring slightly less than a lot for the vast majority of our marriage. I don't see that changing now that I know how to cultivate love. But if my efforts to cultivate it stopped working, well... The point of a long-term romantic relationship is, well, romance. And while I've learned that every moment can't be a Disney moment, if you never _ever_ feel any sort of non-platonic feelings for your spouse, it's time to let yourselves go free and live an authentic life. A romantic partnership without love is a lie.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Any man who would wish to break up a marriage, is no man at all. But, many women, I'm included...have dated ''bad guys''. I think it comes down not respecting ourselves enough, and the reasons for that are varying and different for every woman, so we attract men and are attracted to men who disrespect us, as well. Once you work on yourself, you no longer attract those types. Please keep working on yourself, Ella...so this never happens again. I hope the best for you and your husband, now.


I couldn't agree more. It all comes down to a lack of self-confidence and self-love.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I thought you hated you OM?


The two concepts are not mutually exclusive especially in the context of severe abuse by a person who has been granted or has seized religious dominion over a vulnerable person. 

There was even a case in London recently of an atheist sect controlled by one Marxist Leninist man who used mind control techniques and rape to keep his female subjects under total subjugation for decades. They loved him and also hated him at the same time.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> To be perfectly honest, I would end it. In real life, you don't know if or when the passion can come back, so I would probably, realistically, try for several years- go to counselling and read more books and schedule sex and all those things. But if a few years passed and he made me feel nothing but a vague sadness that the love had died, I'd go. And if he stopped feeling passion for me, and we somehow knew he never would again, I'd hope he'd have the decency to let me go. Hopefully I could find someone else who actually liked me, but if not I could see myself living sitcom-style with a roommate or two or four. Maybe we would even stay legally married but both consensually agree to hook up with and/or date other people, opening our relationship up to others and remaining friends. But I am not so much a martyr that I would stay in a monogamous, eternal bond with anyone whom I did not love, and could never love again.
> 
> I adore my husband now, and have vacillated between adoring a lot and adoring slightly less than a lot for the vast majority of our marriage. I don't see that changing now that I know how to cultivate love. But if my efforts to cultivate it stopped working, well... The point of a long-term romantic relationship is, well, romance. And while I've learned that every moment can't be a Disney moment, if you never _ever_ feel any sort of non-platonic feelings for your spouse, it's time to let yourselves go free and live an authentic life. A romantic partnership without love is a lie.


Most of Disney's themes though have a princess always needing to be rescued by a prince, which your marriage has that aspect to it, in a way. And then when your husband was failing at that, someone else took his place as the prince, except he was a 'dark' prince, so that didn't work. I also want to have a romantic marriage, but at the same time, there are no fairy tales, and you need to really examine if your husband loves you as an equal partner, or if he views you as helpless, and needing to always be romanced and rescued. Because Disney movies typically are about finding ''the one'' and being rescued from a life of pain, by ''that one.'' That's not real life, no one should need to be rescued...but men do that a lot with women, and call it love.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Most of Disney's themes though have a princess always needing to be rescued by a prince, which your marriage has that aspect to it, in a way. And then when your husband was failing at that, someone else took his place as the prince, except he was a 'dark' prince, so that didn't work. I also want to have a romantic marriage, but at the same time, there are no fairy tales, and you need to really examine if your husband loves you as an equal partner, or if he views you as helpless, and needing to always be romanced and rescued. Because Disney movies typically are about finding ''the one'' and being rescued from a life of pain, by ''that one.'' *That's not real life, no one should need to be rescued...but men do that a lot with women, and call it love.*


Men do that a lot. Rescue women. KISA.

Just as women are protective of their brood, especially birth children, men want to be protective of their wife.

Not all men. Some men are innately self-centered, better put....selfish. Egotists.

Passionate men want to hug their wives, put their arms around them, grabbing and touching them. I know that this annoys some women, others love it.

This is the outward and visible form of men's passion.

Yes, they are visual, yes passionate men are touchy-feely. I put myself in that category. Not so much in public, though. My wife wants this in public, not so much in private ???

Men are instinctively dominant with respect to women. They like the feeling of a women needing them, a women enjoying their presence, their hugs and touch.

Hugging a women close gives them comfort. This is mine! My women. 

I know, in today's Feminist society, men do not OWN their wife. She is free to do and say and act as she pleases...... I get that. 

Controlling men suck. I own my body, get your hands off me you, you....dirty minded....husband.

............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

When women push men away, when women turn the tables on men and try to control them; try to "teach" them, lecture them, belittle them...the man's ego deflates and he pulls back.

He becomes ***** whipped. Hen-peckered. 

He no longer is the KISA. He either finds new interests, he turns to porn, he cheats....he deflates to teenager mode. He lets her become the Mommy and he does "fun" stuff, rather then husband stuff.

Yes, yes, yes, men enjoy being KISA's. I have this character trait......call it a flaw if you like. And yes, I like to grab and hug my wife. And touch her stuff !!!!
.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Women hate weak men. But many hate strong men, too. They admire them....from a distance. Let them get close....kick em in the balls. 

Men hate [overly] dominant, aggressive women. Especially women who incessantly talk about: kicking men in the balls, cutting men's penis's off. Calling dominant men *******s and idiots or cavemen. 

Have you heard this one from a women? "Just because a man has six inches, he thinks his **** doesn't stink".

If a man says he hates dominant women [to a dominant women] , she will say, "Tough, get over it!"


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

This is a more painful post than many of the others I’ve written, because of its personal nature. Last night and this morning have not been easy for me. As my husband slept peacefully four feet away on a nearby couch, I lay in bed against six pillows and a heating pad, in entirely too much emotional (and physical) pain to sleep. As I said, I’d been working through the workbook I mentioned (The Abandonment Recovery Workbook, still very much recommend it) and it brought back a WHOLE lot of ill feelings and even brought on a flashback at one point. 
I found it very interesting to note that in the author’s examples, she describes both a betrayed spouse whose husband cheated on her and a wayward spouse who can’t seem to let go of her affair partner, both being in her group therapy sessions and using this workbook. Come to think of it, this would be an excellent book for betrayed spouses trying to keep to the 180 as well. After a brief introduction to the concept of abandonment and a description of who has found the book helpful, it described the five sets of feelings, in no particular order, that people go through when they perceive they have been betrayed or abandoned.



> The Five Stages of Abandonment
> 
> Shattering: The painful tear in your attachment, a stab wound to the heart. The sudden disconnection sends you into panic, devastation, shock, and bewilderment. You feel symbiotically attached to your lost Person—as if you couldn’t survive alone. You’re in crisis and feel as if you’d been severed from your Siamese twin and you were in the recovery room in pain and alone. You try to keep remnants of your fractured self together, but your whole sense of reality feels destroyed. One minute you succumb to the overwhelming despair, suicidal feelings, and sorrow. The next, you see glimmers of hope.
> 
> ...


After I had read what each of the stages were, the book asked me to think about the relationship(s) in my life over which I had felt these feelings. It asked me to journal, about how each of these stages felt when I left behind or lost each of these people. I won’t go into detail about everything I wrote last night; that would take a whole page. Or two. But I wrote about my friend, who had insulted my husband and said I deserved the OM’s abuse. I wrote about the shock I felt, the longing for comfort, the anger, the self-loathing, the relief. I wrote it all down, spilling out paragraphs. I'm glad my shoulder is healed enough that I can type without worsening it. I wrote about another male friend, whose friendship I’d had to give up because it was a codependent friendship and- though there was no deception involved and my husband knew of every conversation- I depended on him more than was healthy, and unknowingly made my husband feel left out in the cold. I wrote about feeling all those things for him, too. I ALMOST wrote about the OM the same way, but I couldn’t fill out any other categories except “Internalizing” and “Rage”. I hate myself for trusting him. I hate him for doing what he did to his daughter, for trying to do it to me. I hate myself, I hate him, I hate myself, I hate him… I finally had to close the laptop and give up for the night because I wasn’t getting anywhere.

The worst part about all this is that my husband forgives me for everything and his forgiveness doesn’t bring me any relief. He knows about EVERYTHING I’ve ever said to EVERYONE, and he forgives me for the OM and for my codependent friendship, and tells me I haven’t done anything wrong otherwise. We’ve talked about it so much, and I’ve apologized so much, and I’ve read all the infidelity books- a few even with him. But I still feel “The Swirl” as the book calls it, and so I’m here writing and crying and remembering, hoping I can stop hating myself by the time I reach the end of this workbook.
I finally curled up next to my husband and held him tight. I could feel him smile even in the dark.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> This is a more painful post than many of the others I’ve written, because of its personal nature. Last night and this morning have not been easy for me. As my husband slept peacefully four feet away on a nearby couch, I lay in bed against six pillows and a heating pad, in entirely too much emotional (and physical) pain to sleep. As I said, I’d been working through the workbook I mentioned (The Abandonment Recovery Workbook, still very much recommend it) and it brought back a WHOLE lot of ill feelings and even brought on a flashback at one point.
> I found it very interesting to note that in the author’s examples, she describes both a betrayed spouse whose husband cheated on her and a wayward spouse who can’t seem to let go of her affair partner, both being in her group therapy sessions and using this workbook. Come to think of it, this would be an excellent book for betrayed spouses trying to keep to the 180 as well. After a brief introduction to the concept of abandonment and a description of who has found the book helpful, it described the five sets of feelings, in no particular order, that people go through when they perceive they have been betrayed or abandoned.
> 
> 
> ...


Did your husband ever go through any pain over this or was he always in forgive you mode?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Men do that a lot. Rescue women. KISA.
> 
> Just as women are protective of their brood, especially birth children, men want to be protective of their wife.
> 
> ...


Men who ''rescue'' women they barely know, aren't necessarily being selfless. Sometimes, they like women who are lost and vulnerable, so they can control them. My advice to my guy friends who are single...DON'T rescue women from debt, and their own drama, and for my single women friends...don't seek to have a guy rescue you.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Did your husband ever go through any pain over this or was he always in forgive you mode?


He did go through pain, but very quietly. He cried once, did not sleep in our apartment whilst I was in the hospital and at first refused to forgive me. He did forgive me, though, after a few weeks, after he saw I was in therapy and working through it. I could probably have seen his pain more clearly if I wasn't so busy at the time with my own. I'm focusing a lot on my pain now, too, but I also keep an eye out for his. If he were to have any triggers nowadays, I'm sure I'd notice and respond.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@Affaircare, I don't know whether you accept PMs but I couldn't find the button to send one. I noticed you (and several others, but that's beside the point) said that the advice I'd give to other wayward spouses is so self-focused that you barely know where to begin to open up a conversation with me about it. Well, I want to start (or, well, continue) said conversation with you because I really like your website and the advice you give. For example, that, "I don't know who to choose/I don't know what to do" means that your heart knows what's right, but you don't want to act because you'll lose someone...very, very wise. 

...Anyway, rambling. I agree that my advice for waywards is pretty much 100% focused on the WS/DS and I don't say much- if anything- about the BS/LS at all. This is because:

1. Everyone ELSE on marriage forums everywhere is mostly focused on the Betrayed Spouse so the WS doesn't need my help or advice on how to help their BS when they have so many other great resources to which to turn for that. (Like yours!)

2. Wayward spouses are broken people, generally. I actually agree with @sokillme to a degree on that. They're usually not actually happy that they blew up their marriage. I don't think I've ever seen a WS who honestly delights in their BS's misery and anguish. Usually, on D-day and after, the WS feels lousy. They're probably not feeling bad for the "right" reasons. They're probably feeling regret rather than remorse. But they're still, usually, not very happy. These are people that have such low self-esteem and such miserable psyches that they are willing to ruin every aspect of their lives for a dopamine hit and an ego boost. Therefore, teaching them how to meet their own needs, how to practice healthy, nondestructive self-care, and how to forgive themselves and not hate themselves so much, is vital. If they can meet the needs that led them to cheat in the first place before they get desperate and put their morals aside, they'll be less likely to need an ego boost- another affair- in the future. That's why I like that abandonment self-help workbook so much. The premise thereof is that you don't need another person (like an affair partner) to make you happy/safe/loved/important/whatever.

I'm not very good at self-care yet, and I'm a complete novice at not hating myself. I'm hardly qualified to be any kind of counselor to anyone. But it seems like wayward self-care and self-forgiveness (and thereby filling one's own bottomless emotional bucket so one is no longer so tempted to commit adultery) has been abandoned and laughed at by infidelity experts, and it just baffles me utterly. So I feel the need to step in where no one else has or will.

You've been in this particular rodeo a long time. Surely I can't be the first one to think of this. It's not that I don't care about the betrayed spouses of the world; that's not it at all. It's just that the whole infidelity-recovery community remains focused on the BS. With me being the lone voice saying "Love yourself!" in a crowd of people saying "Forget yourself and help your spouse!" it's not like WSes are going to somehow miss the memo that their BS is hurting badly and that they need to try to give them security, comfort, and answers. With so many great people reminding them of it, they can't miss it, surely.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Very well. I do see what you're saying about being hydrated during a marathon when most are only just getting on the treadmill. Perhaps too much focus on the wayward spouse might make him think he (or she) has permission to put their _wants_ above their spouse's _needs_, and that's a problem. I have tried to address this tastefully, without saying to the wayward spouse, "You can't have healing yet" because the wayward spouse probably _is_ hurt to some degree or another by their action, even if that hurt really only amounts to longing for their AP. Would it make my words softer for the betrayed if I wrote an article, for them, too? I really see no need for that as so many authors have stepped in on their behalf and offered them much better help than I can provide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Refering to what I bolded above, you are assuming that the Wayward actually has any misgivings for what they have done. They have 'destroyed' their BS and should look outwards first before looking inwards. Many WS have no guilt only self pity for themselves for getting caught and having to give up the cake they were enjoying eating. A WS would not engage in infidelity if they had any inkling what it does to their partner.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

aine said:


> Refering to what I bolded above, you are assuming that the Wayward actually has any misgivings for what they have done. They have 'destroyed' their BS and should look outwards first before looking inwards. Many WS have no guilt only self pity for themselves for getting caught and having to give up the cake they were enjoying eating. A WS would not engage in infidelity if they had any inkling what it does to their partner.


I appreciate your explaining the pushback I've been getting so succinctly, but I don't see how this could be true, except for the last sentence. After the WS remains out-of-contact with their affair partner for a few weeks or a few months, after the WS gets over their paramour and gets out of "the affair fog", the world begins falling down around them. Not to the degree that the BS's world has crumbled, but even so. 

They discover their affair partner has flaws after all and/or that "happily ever after" with their affair partner might not have been the paradise they assumed it would be.

They may discover that they still have feelings for their spouse, but even if they don't, they still see their spouse weeping hysterically, raging, shaking, throwing up, having panic attacks, and just generally being traumatized. I don't know of anyone who could see that and not be moved to compassion and feel wracked with guilt. Even if they eventually decide to divorce the BS they'll probably still feel horrible about causing so much damage to a person they used to love, and wish they would have gone about leaving them in a much gentler way.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @Affaircare, I don't know whether you accept PMs but I couldn't find the button to send one. I noticed you (and several others, but that's beside the point) said that the advice I'd give to other wayward spouses is so self-focused that you barely know where to begin to open up a conversation with me about it. Well, I want to start (or, well, continue) said conversation with you because I really like your website and the advice you give. For example, that, "I don't know who to choose/I don't know what to do" means that your heart knows what's right, but you don't want to act because you'll lose someone...very, very wise.


 @EllaSuaveterre, I would be happy to converse with you, but I wanted you to know that I didn't see this until rather late this evening, and I have a cold so I wanted to go to bed early. I'll reply in the morning, okay? And I'm tickled you both read and liked my thoughts! 

P.S. I have it set so that I can only receive PMs from people who are my contacts or friends or whatever. I do not write privately with people as a general rule because if it's honest, it can be said in public and someone could learn from it. And I especially do not PM with men, because that's one way I protect my marriage. I write everything right out in public so my Dear Hubby could see anything he'd ever want to see that I write.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

As an afterthought, you can get the same message across two different ways, and one goes down much more easily than the other.

Let's say a wayward spouse is currently pitying themselves because they just can't take their betrayed spouse's crying and pained expressions anymore- it makes them feel too guilty and like a bad person. Said WS posts as much on a marriage forum like this one.

I might say to them, "YOU'RE upset?! Too bad. You don't get to be upset now. Your spouse probably DOES think you're a bad person! YOU ruined your spouse's life and now YOU have to pay for it, end of story."

That's the truth of the matter, but if they're already feeling low and self-pitying, a boot-camp style lecture isn't going to make them feel any better, and they need to feel better in order to summon the courage to get things done.

I could also say, "I know. It is a truly awful thing to see someone you love and live with so closely being in such pain. The guilt must be unbearable at times. I know it's hard, but your spouse needs you to be brave and strong for them right now, because they can't be. And I know it probably feels like you can't be strong either. But you need to pull yourself together for a bit, and you absolutely can, I promise. Just take ten minutes to take deep breaths and compose yourself, and then go in the living room and talk to your partner. Tell them you feel for them, and that you want them to know that you'll do anything you can to help heal them. Then, ask what you can do. If they tell you something, write it in a notebook to remember later. And then, go take an hour to relax and decompress. I promise, it sounds daunting, but it's not so bad."

That- empathizing with the wayward's pain and discomfort, reminding them of their responsibility, talking them through what to so, and encouraging them to reward themselves when the task is done- will give them courage and strength. They'll feel less overwhelmed and less guilty, and that will help them be who their spouse needs them to be.

Both messages say that they have to comfort their spouse whether they feel up to it or not, but IMO, the second message is more encouraging.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*As a loving spouse, my job is never to rescue, control, or dominate my spousal cohort; nor allow the same to occur to me by them!

It is to love, respect, honor, and cherish each other above all, over all others ~ bar none!

If that part of the marriage vows or contract cannot be held in strict compliance and obeyance, then I'd just rather bask in the happiness of being single!*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> As an afterthought, you can get the same message across two different ways, and one goes down much more easily than the other.
> 
> Let's say a wayward spouse is currently pitying themselves because they just can't take their betrayed spouse's crying and pained expressions anymore- it makes them feel too guilty and like a bad person. Said WS posts as much on a marriage forum like this one.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry Ella but you really have no concept that their truly are selfish evil people out there who just don't care about there SO. What do you say about the people who kill their SO. Did they do it because they were felling like a bad person? There really are. It's hard to give advice when you basically think the best of people some of who are the worst. 

Here's the thing, you are actions. You should be judged on your actions. What else do you think we should judge people on if not their actions?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Men do that a lot. Rescue women. KISA.


Women who need to be rescued are generally lost. Better to look for a partner. You will end up being much happier. You bring stuff to the table she brings stuff. The KISA always goes out and gets killed for the King.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I agree that my advice for waywards is pretty much 100% focused on the WS/DS and I don't say much- if anything- about the BS/LS at all. This is because:
> 
> 1. Everyone ELSE on marriage forums everywhere is mostly focused on the Betrayed Spouse so the WS doesn't need my help or advice on how to help their BS when they have so many other great resources to which to turn for that. (Like yours!)
> 
> 2. Wayward spouses are broken people, generally. I actually agree with @sokillme to a degree on that. They're usually not actually happy that they blew up their marriage.


Hi @EllaSuaveterre, 

Sorry it's kind of late in the day but Mondays always seem to sneak up on me! LOL Anyway, I do want to respond to you and try to speak together because I think our viewpoints and opinions are very different. Now, on one hand we are in very different stages in our lives (I'm in my mid-50's, kids are grown and gone, second marriage) and I think where one is on the journey can really change their perspective. When I was your age, I didn't have much self-worth yet either, nor did I have ANY CLUE what real marriage was nor how to survive a tidal wave of emotions...and now that I'm older I have and know all those things, so it changes how I view things on a foundational level. 

Still sometimes I feel like you and I are almost polar opposites. I think partially it's because I'm a peace-loving introverted intuitive with strong Thinker tendencies that filter my feelings; whereas I would guess you might be an extroverted senses-oriented person with VERY strong Feeler abilities. FYI this is neither good nor bad--just ways that we are...and ways that we differ. 

I do understand why you wrote "to" or "for" waywards (for now let's just agree to use the terms wayward and betrayed), because the majority of help "out there" is for the betrayed spouses. There are forums, and blogs, and websites, and articles...all aimed at betrayed spouses...and very little offered specifically for waywards. Trust me, as a wayward I understand that! 

But there's a big reason why!

In order for a wayward person to want and receive help to become faithful, they would have to fundamentally change what they think and how they act! Let me phrase it another way. I could publish articles that are "supportive" of wayward people, but then that would not necessarily encourage them to a life of fidelity, would it? If I was "supporting" someone actively involved in an affair, I'd be in some way or other making them feel better ABOUT the affair! And quite frankly that's not reality. 

See, in my view this is like someone who has had a bad, BAD car accident and they are bleeding out under the wreckage and pinned. I could come along and encourage them that the damage to their face isn't all that bad and they look okay--but they would still DIE because I wasn't dealing with reality! In reality what I desperately need to do first is stop the bleeding and get them out from under the wreckage. I say this as someone who is a recovered wayward: if someone is so self-centered and self-focused that they seek outside their marriage and don't see that they are dropping a bomb on their spouse and their children, then they do not need more belly-button gazing. They are bleeding out and pinned! The need is to stop the blood first, then get them un-pinned. 

So first, I would teach waywards how to see outside themselves on a consistent basis. I think sometimes that "seeing others" is a skill that some have intuitively, and sometimes it has to be taught...some never "get it" very well. But it is definitely different to shift the focus from your own self to your spouse and THEIR NEEDS. Again, I'm not being mean, but I think it's human nature to think of ourselves to some degree and to think we do all the chores and to think our side is right and theirs is wrong, etc. So there's a real skill to learn to put your own defenses and inaccurate and unhealthy thinking down...and learn to pick up healthier habits. 

Then I would teach waywards how to act in the best interest of others on a consistent basis. During the affair, the wayward thought and ACTED in their own best interest period. The first thing I said above I'd teach is how to think of others...how to see others...how to stop assuming about your spouse... In other words it would essentially be re-learning all about their spouse (in a way)!! Next I'd say now that you've learned new ways of thinking, and the thinking is outward or external...now you need to stop talking and ACT. How do you ACT in a way that is in someone ELSE'S best interest? How do you sacrifice without becoming resentful? How do you balance openness and honesty with setting boundaries? All of that! Okay you're seeing your spouse in a different light now because you learned how to see them and how to change the way you think...but how do you put all that into ACTION? Because frankly, thinking is still all internal, and actions speak 1000 times louder than words. If you actually love someone you may or may not "have feelings" for them at the moment, but you can and should ACT IN A LOVING WAY TOWARD THEM. 

In my experience working with unfaithful people, what I've seen happen over and over again is that waywards are so focused on themselves and what they "deserve" and how other people's spouses get them this or that...that continuing on in the vein of "Yes, and you do deserve XXX" does not stop the blood or pull them out of the wreckage. In order to move from an unfaithful person to a FAITHFUL person, there has to be ... HAS TO BE ... a hard stop, a hard 180 degree turn away from what has been happening before, and a complete and serious change in the person. They have to both "put off" the unfaithful habits and "put on" the new, faithful habits, or else all that happens is that once the hoopla from this affair dies down a bit, they have no faithful foundation on which to build, and they just do it all over again! 

You wrote: 



> I don't think I've ever seen a WS who honestly delights in their BS's misery and anguish. Usually, on D-day and after, the WS feels lousy. They're probably not feeling bad for the "right" reasons. They're probably feeling regret rather than remorse. But they're still, usually, not very happy.


 @EllaSuaveterre, I'm laughing because clearly you just haven't been around long enough yet. LOL  I'm not a pessimist, but I have definitely seen some WS's who take delight in hurting their BS more and more; however, this is also usually an individual who feels better about themselves when they belittle someone else. So there are mental health syndromes involved. 

However, overall I would say that from what I've experienced over the years, most waywards feel very lonely and miserable before the affair, for a variety of reasons. Very often things are not right before the affair--and often they are on a paddle boat down the DeNial River. But after D-Day to say "well the WS feels lousy too"--Ella, we did it to ourselves! I mean, I wouldn't feel lousy if I was flagrantly faithful! Any pain I feel as a result of being discovered is SELF-INFLICTED and thus honestly is not on the same playing field as the betrayed who was shot in the head from behind! 

In real life, part of me thinks "If you would like to stop hurting from losing your AP, don't have an affair, duh!" like that joke about "Doc, it only hurts when I do this!" And I'm honestly not trying to be mean or angry or grouchy other than to say that I think it is shocking, in my opinion, to try to address someone's pain over ending their affair by saying 'Awww...you deserve to be happy too' or 'You are allowed to feel sad over not having a lover' when REAL HELP would be to say as a true friend, "PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!! DO NOT HAVE A LOVER, IT WILL HARM YOU *ENORMOUSLY* IN WAYS YOU CAN'T IMAGINE!!!" 



> These are people that have such low self-esteem and such miserable psyches that they are willing to ruin every aspect of their lives for a dopamine hit and an ego boost. Therefore, teaching them how to meet their own needs, how to practice healthy, nondestructive self-care, and how to forgive themselves and not hate themselves so much, is vital. If they can meet the needs that led them to cheat in the first place before they get desperate and put their morals aside, they'll be less likely to need an ego boost- another affair- in the future. That's why I like that abandonment self-help workbook so much. The premise thereof is that you don't need another person (like an affair partner) to make you happy/safe/loved/important/whatever.


Who is all this focused on? Where's the focus? On the SELF again!! SELF-esteem and SELF-care... see that? I think waywards usually have "self" down pat, but have little or no idea how to think of and care for OTHERS. Thus to teach them what they are already doing (taking care of Self) won't "fix" what the problem is! Now, I understand the idea of knowing how to self-soothe, and how to make healthier relationship choices, but really I think the thing that most have not considered is not "How do I take care of ME ME ME!!?" but more like "When I married, I voluntarily agreed to always include and consider my spouse in all things!" That means "How do I take care of THEM?" How do I include THEM in my life? How do I let them see the real me (even when I'm afraid)? What are my weaknesses and what have I put in place TO PROTECT MY SPOUSE FROM ME? 

See?



> I'm not very good at self-care yet, and I'm a complete novice at not hating myself. I'm hardly qualified to be any kind of counselor to anyone. But it seems like wayward self-care and self-forgiveness (and thereby filling one's own bottomless emotional bucket so one is no longer so tempted to commit adultery) has been abandoned and laughed at by infidelity experts, and it just baffles me utterly. So I feel the need to step in where no one else has or will.


I think it is abandoned by infidelity experts because that is a topic for personal counseling or IC, not for marriage counseling or infidelity counseling. By far, the vast majority of waywards I've met are a deep sorrow to me, because they refuse to look at the flaws within themselves. They refuse to do the work to change. They refuse personal responsibility. They refuse to even admit they were wrong! By far, the vast majority of waywards are so "set in their ways" if you will, they would NEVER admit they did something wrong, stop doing it, and do the work to repair the damage they did. And thus, the vast majority of waywards go along reinforcing "the wrong thing" and end up destroying their lives and their families lives. Now do people recover afterward? Sure of course--people are resilient and often bounce back even after tragedies--but they are forever DIFFERENT and harmed but what happened, all for pride. 



> You've been in this particular rodeo a long time. Surely I can't be the first one to think of this. It's not that I don't care about the betrayed spouses of the world; that's not it at all. It's just that the whole infidelity-recovery community remains focused on the BS. With me being the lone voice saying "Love yourself!" in a crowd of people saying "Forget yourself and help your spouse!" it's not like WSes are going to somehow miss the memo that their BS is hurting badly and that they need to try to give them security, comfort, and answers. With so many great people reminding them of it, they can't miss it, surely.


Here's the thing: having been through it myself, I know that immediately after D-Day and in the first days-weeks-month of reconciliation, that a wayward does hurt. Yes indeed. I will share with you and in my instance I had an online affair with a man I met through a game, but through the game I also met many other people whom I considered friends...people I cared about who cared about me to some degree...like a friend would. After D-day I gave up the OM and all the friends from the game. I deleted the game, deleted all their contacts, and never ever went back EVER. But in my heart of hearts I felt lonely and sad and isolated. As I've told you in this reply, that emotion was SELF-INFLICTED. I brought people into my heart and life who filled a role that should have been my husband's alone! So the cure to feeling lonely and sad and isolated was not to be told "Oh @Affaircare, you deserve to feel loved and happy and included. You deserve to have your needs of friendship met." Yes, I do deserve to feel loved but what I needed to learn at the time was HOW TO LET MY HUSBAND FILL THE LONELY HOLE.... and how to find happiness with my husband...and how to feel included with my family and spouse, not outsiders. 

I realize and recognize that no one "makes me feel <insert emotion here>" and thus my husband would not actually fill the lonely hole..I actually have to see myself as worthy enough to fill my own lonely hole. LOL But the point is that everyone "out there"--in movies, books, blogs, articles, etc.--talks about "how to love YOU" or how to love yourself. Very, very few talk about "Here's how to be MARRIED." "Here's what it's like to be so intimate with another human being that you include them in everything." "Here's how you and your spouse turn to each other and fill the other's needs." Yes, it is ideal if both spouses commit to filling the other's needs (he fulfills hers/she fulfills his) because then both needs are being met! But nowhere does the wedding vow say "I will meet your need IF YOU..." It says 'I promise to forsake all others through all the circumstances of life." So here's how you do that.

Hope this gives some food for thought. I'd be happy to talk more if you'd like.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> "PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!! DO NOT HAVE A LOVER, IT WILL HARM YOU *ENORMOUSLY* IN WAYS YOU CAN'T IMAGINE!!!"


Interesting not to pry but, it's rare that you hear this from someone who had an affair. How do you think it harmed you in that way?

Do you personally think it harms the ones who don't even know it. Kind of like years of alcoholism has an affect on a person or something like that?


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Ella - I guess you would have to clarify exactly what kind of pain a WW has to deal with after d-day. Do you mean the shame? The regret of being caught? The guilt that led her to confess? The pining away for OM? Or is there something else you refer to? 

You see, I do not believe that any woman feels "remorse" for cheating. She may very well feel deep regret over the pain it's caused her husband and family but never condemn herself for getting into bed with another man. She deserved that part. It was important for her self-esteem and besides - it proved to her that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. It made her appreciate her husband more. The whole experience was a good thing that had some unfortunate collateral damage. For these reasons I think most WW's end up convinced that it was all worth it in the end. They have memories of the dangerous liaisons and exciting sexual escapades they can relive forever. D-day was the beginning of a challenging game of manipulation in order to chill the old man out and get things back to normal. 

If this is how I see it - because this is the only way I've ever seen it - then how could I ever feel compassion for a WW?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I appreciate your taking the time to draft such a well-thought-out and lengthy post. Those sorts are my favourites. :grin2:

I understand what you're saying, mostly, but there are a few of your major points that just honestly make zero sense to me. I'm not trying to be snarky about it; I'm genuinely baffled and STILL can't understand exactly why and how you're saying these things, what the line of thought behind it was, etc. Please allow me to highlight my confusion on a point-by-point basis:



Affaircare said:


> Still sometimes I feel like you and I are almost polar opposites. I think partially it's because I'm a peace-loving introverted intuitive with strong Thinker tendencies that filter my feelings; whereas I would guess you might be an extroverted senses-oriented person with VERY strong Feeler abilities. FYI this is neither good nor bad--just ways that we are...and ways that we differ.


That's true. I'm an INFP, and like most INFPs, I am deeply emotional, a hopeless romantic, often at odds with the more pragmatic sides of life, and bitterly stubborn when it comes to my ideals of how life "should" be and how people "should" be towards each other. I do think most of our differences come down to age and personality type. That said, I still very much admire you as a person, even if I end up driving you insane by the end of this thread with an endless ping-pong of point/counterpoint. Again, I don't ask these questions to be catty; I ask them because something about their essence hasn't yet "clicked" in my brain and I really, really want to understand why you (and others) see things as you do.



Affaircare said:


> I do understand why you wrote "to" or "for" waywards (for now let's just agree to use the terms wayward and betrayed), because the majority of help "out there" is for the betrayed spouses. There are forums, and blogs, and websites, and articles...all aimed at betrayed spouses...and very little offered specifically for waywards. Trust me, as a wayward I understand that!
> 
> But there's a big reason why!
> 
> In order for a wayward person to want and receive help to become faithful, they would have to fundamentally change what they think and how they act! Let me phrase it another way. I could publish articles that are "supportive" of wayward people, but then that would not necessarily encourage them to a life of fidelity, would it? If I was "supporting" someone actively involved in an affair, I'd be in some way or other making them feel better ABOUT the affair! And quite frankly that's not reality.


Okay, confusing bit number one:
How is being supportive the same thing as condoning an affair? I have pointed out many times and to many people that one can disapprove of a person's actions without piling on shame or scolding said person. I've given many, many examples as to how this might be done. Validate the feeling; steer away from the action.

"I know you miss your girlfriend, but calling her would further wound your wife. Try to think of some other way to cope with your loneliness." 

Yet, no matter how many times I say that supporting=/=condoning, this counterpoint continues to come up. I must be missing something. Would other waywards look at the above sentence and somehow get "Go ahead and call your AP" out of it? 



Affaircare said:


> See, in my view this is like someone who has had a bad, BAD car accident and they are bleeding out under the wreckage and pinned. I could come along and encourage them that the damage to their face isn't all that bad and they look okay--but they would still DIE because I wasn't dealing with reality! In reality what I desperately need to do first is stop the bleeding and get them out from under the wreckage. I say this as someone who is a recovered wayward: if someone is so self-centered and self-focused that they seek outside their marriage and don't see that they are dropping a bomb on their spouse and their children, then they do not need more belly-button gazing. They are bleeding out and pinned! The need is to stop the blood first, then get them un-pinned.


Confusing bit No. 2:

I see this analogy a lot, with the affair being made into as much of a physical trauma as an emotional one. I get the imagery, but I fail entirely to see how being kind to a wayward and validating their emotions is making the "wound" worse for them! If they are pinned under a car and bleeding, wouldn't getting them out involve an emotional ICU? Wouldn't getting them out involve giving comfort and validation to help them get through the day-to-day, teaching them how to swallow their feelings long enough tend to their spouse, and teaching them how to tend to themselves so they don't feel empty?



Affaircare said:


> However, overall I would say that from what I've experienced over the years, most waywards feel very lonely and miserable before the affair, for a variety of reasons. Very often things are not right before the affair--and often they are on a paddle boat down the DeNial River. But after D-Day to say "well the WS feels lousy too"--Ella, we did it to ourselves! I mean, I wouldn't feel lousy if I was flagrantly faithful! Any pain I feel as a result of being discovered is SELF-INFLICTED and thus honestly is not on the same playing field as the betrayed who was shot in the head from behind!
> 
> In real life, part of me thinks "If you would like to stop hurting from losing your AP, don't have an affair, duh!" like that joke about "Doc, it only hurts when I do this!" And I'm honestly not trying to be mean or angry or grouchy other than to say that I think it is shocking, in my opinion, to try to address someone's pain over ending their affair by saying 'Awww...you deserve to be happy too' or 'You are allowed to feel sad over not having a lover' when REAL HELP would be to say as a true friend, "PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!! DO NOT HAVE A LOVER, IT WILL HARM YOU *ENORMOUSLY* IN WAYS YOU CAN'T IMAGINE!!!"


Firstly, if you have a friend who has already cheated and they're confiding in you about it, telling them they shouldn't have taken a lover is like looking at a person with a severed arm and saying, "Chainsaws are dangerous, you know." THEY KNOW. They already _know_ the affair was wrong and hurtful; why else would they feel bad enough to confide in you? The guilt is with them forever, throbbing like a sore tooth, driving them to distraction. The damage has already been done and the best you can do at that point is try to patch up their wounded heart and broken spirit. The last thing a hurting person needs- self-inflicted or not!!- is an after-the-fact "I told you so".




Affaircare said:


> Who is all this focused on? Where's the focus? On the SELF again!! SELF-esteem and SELF-care... see that? I think waywards usually have "self" down pat, but have little or no idea how to think of and care for OTHERS. Thus to teach them what they are already doing (taking care of Self) won't "fix" what the problem is! Now, I understand the idea of knowing how to self-soothe, and how to make healthier relationship choices, but really I think the thing that most have not considered is not "How do I take care of ME ME ME!!?" but more like "When I married, I voluntarily agreed to always include and consider my spouse in all things!" That means "How do I take care of THEM?" How do I include THEM in my life? How do I let them see the real me (even when I'm afraid)? What are my weaknesses and what have I put in place TO PROTECT MY SPOUSE FROM ME?
> 
> See?


I do see. Romantic gestures of all sorts, and gestures of compassion and caring, are like my second language. I know how to perform kind, nurturing, loving, playful, spontaneous, pre-emptive acts of kindness and love. I learned when I was dating my husband. Post-A, I simply date him once more. Taking care of my darling Mr. Suaveterre is second-nature to me. And as to including him in my life, well, as I'm emotionally and financially dependent upon him, the integration of our lives is almost automatic. I suppose some WSes might need to be reminded to date their BS, or to take time to listen to them express their emotions, or to include them in their day, but it isn't difficult. It's as simple as telling them, "Today, maybe try putting your arm around her and telling her you care for her and will strive to keep her safe." or "Today, try writing your husband a poem like you used to do when you first started dating". Simple as.



Affaircare said:


> I think it is abandoned by infidelity experts because that is a topic for personal counseling or IC, not for marriage counseling or infidelity counseling. By far, the vast majority of waywards I've met are a deep sorrow to me, because they refuse to look at the flaws within themselves. They refuse to do the work to change. They refuse personal responsibility. They refuse to even admit they were wrong! By far, the vast majority of waywards are so "set in their ways" if you will, they would NEVER admit they did something wrong, stop doing it, and do the work to repair the damage they did. And thus, the vast majority of waywards go along reinforcing "the wrong thing" and end up destroying their lives and their families lives. Now do people recover afterward? Sure of course--people are resilient and often bounce back even after tragedies--but they are forever DIFFERENT and harmed but what happened, all for pride.


And yet those people would _also_ try to reconcile?? If they don't want to think about what they've done, the only option is divorce. Still, I think a lot of that refusal to look inside oneself, refusal to acquiesce to the BS's requests, refusal to end the affair, etc. comes down to, "This is hard and I'm scared of being in pain." Self-care fixes that because they'll know how to soothe their pain and thus be empowered to do whatever it takes, because they're less afraid of the pain that doing the right thing will bring them.

That's really all I've got as far as things I don't agree with and/or don't get. Can you explain those things in a little more detail, or maybe say it a different way or something? I just can't grasp your line of thinking in the above paragraphs.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> Ella - I guess you would have to clarify exactly what kind of pain a WW has to deal with after d-day. Do you mean the shame? The regret of being caught? The guilt that led her to confess? The pining away for OM? Or is there something else you refer to?
> 
> You see, I do not believe that any woman feels "remorse" for cheating. She may very well feel deep regret over the pain it's caused her husband and family but never condemn herself for getting into bed with another man. She deserved that part. It was important for her self-esteem and besides - it proved to her that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. It made her appreciate her husband more. The whole experience was a good thing that had some unfortunate collateral damage. For these reasons I think most WW's end up convinced that it was all worth it in the end. They have memories of the dangerous liaisons and exciting sexual escapades they can relive forever. D-day was the beginning of a challenging game of manipulation in order to chill the old man out and get things back to normal.
> 
> If this is how I see it - because this is the only way I've ever seen it - then how could I ever feel compassion for a WW?


Well, for me, that moment came after I got out of the hospital, and one of the first things my mother's friend did was condemn me for having an affair. _How could you? How dare you? You're an idiot! You're scum!_

The tears came immediately, and within seconds I was literally reduced to leaning against the arm of the couch, _wailing_ in despair, until my mother came in the room cautioning that I'd disturb the neighbors.

I had an affair. It was one of those things I didn't think myself capable of until after the affair had already started. I put cheaters in a totally separate class of beings, like murderers and rapists. And now, _I was in that category_. Holy Gods, I thought. I'm a bad person!! People, even people with low self-esteem, usually have some regard for themselves. They care about their own survival and usually believe that they are worthy of some degree of basic respect. In that moment, that left me. Just like that, all of my worth was gone. I was lower than a dog.THAT was what set me crying. I realized I'd lost my humanity. I'm close to tears even now, remembering what that felt like. 

I remember thinking, _"There's a knife on the kitchen table. As soon as she leaves the room, I'm going to shove that knife into my chest."_ 


In order to cope with that, I have since taken up the mantle of love the sinner and hate the sin, because if I hadn't I would no longer place any value on myself as a human being. I learned to look at even the most heinous people on the face of this rock and say, "Yes, it's horrible that they murdered 20 people and they definitely should NOT have done that. Even so, there is a human with a story behind that mugshot. I wonder what made him feel, in that moment, like murder was okay?" I now give every human being a basic level of value, no matter how I feel about them or what they have done. Even my abuser, with whom I happened to have had the affair. It's probably rationalizing, but if I didn't rationalize and find some way to allow myself to have value and dignity, I wouldn't be able to even try to accept my husband's forgiveness, and I'd probably kill myself.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Well, for me, that moment came after I got out of the hospital, and one of the first things my mother's friend did was condemn me for having an affair. _How could you? How dare you? You're an idiot! You're scum!_
> 
> The tears came immediately, and within seconds I was literally reduced to leaning against the arm of the couch, _wailing_ in despair, until my mother came in the room cautioning that I'd disturb the neighbors.
> 
> ...


Once again I would like to point out that all your thinking was about yourself. No, what did I just do to my spouse.

In this sense you fit in the pattern of most WSs. This is precisly the point @Affaircare was making about them.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Once again I would like to point out that all your thinking was about yourself. No, what did I just do to my spouse.
> 
> In this sense you fit in the pattern of most WSs. This is precisly the point @Affaircare was making about them.


Not going to deny it, it's true. I think of myself first, and others after the fact. I am still capable, however, of putting myself aside _temporarily_ if I see that someone else (like my BH) needs me. I know how to give romantic gestures, sweet words, lavish dates, and all sorts of other things that say, "I'm thinking of you". That makes him very happy, and when I see the look in his eyes I am inclined to think that my efforts, the things I already know how to do, are enough.

Yet you say it's not. It is VERY difficult for me to put aside my own emotions when I'm hurting, in order to console someone else who is also hurting. I'm more than willing to do it, when I think of it. But it somehow doesn't occur to me to think of it! Every single time you post and ask me to empathize with my husband over my infidelity, it always takes me by surprise, even though you've said it a lot! I honestly do WANT to think of him first, in more ways than just planning dates, giving cuddles, and writing love notes. I just _don't_ for some reason. It just falls out of my brain, like I've got some kind of selective memory impediment. It's not that I'm ignoring his side of the story intentionally; I just forget!


I'd like to say I know what he felt when he found out about my affair, but I don't. My best guess is "miserable, probably." My husband doesn't tend to talk about his feelings a ton. Even when I asked him how the affair made him feel, and how I could help, he said, "I don't know. It's over now. It's in the past."


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I've been reading this new thread and find it very fascinating. I feel like I understand where you are coming from @EllaSuaveterre and I look forward to reading a bit more in depth. 
This last bit of information about not remembering to think first about your BH's feelings is interesting and it got me thinking. Perhaps one of the very problems that WS's have is that very thing, not knowing how to self soothe. Always looking to an experience or another person to make happiness and comfort happen for them. When it begins to wane in the primary relationship the WS looks elsewhere because he/she is so reliant on others to keep them happy/safe/entertained or whatever.
This in itself is an issue that needs to be addressed with inner healing of the emotions and perhaps even ptsd, csa or other forms of past abuse or neglect.

It's not something that often shows itself in a spouse until they have inwardly 'decided' that they aren't going to get their needs met within their current relationship. This in itself is not infidelity, but to a person who relies on others to give them the emotional stability they need it is (unfortunately) an open door to the possibility of infidelity if another person presents themselves in that vulnerable state.

I am in no way saying that the WS is excused from their actions or their withdrawal from the M. 
What I AM saying is that the lack of self-care, self awareness and the lack of ability to self-soothe (emotionally speaking) is what lead some people down this path.
Therefore to ignore that they are struggling in this area during R is to only send those tendencies back underground again.

Another book I would recommend @EllaSuaveterre is 
Keeping the Love You Find by Harville Hendrix.
It is an older book but it helps identify the gaps in childhood that lead toward wanting the kind of love that isn't always good for you and how to address those gaps and heal. 
It would be very good for your next step after you complete the book your going through. (IMHO) It was very helpful in my process of both healing and reconciling.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I also meant to say, I admire your tenacity to keep posting about this topic. There are WS who do need to hear what you're trying to say. TAM hasn't always felt like a safe place for wayward to pursue healing or express their own perspectives. 
And I believe there is more healing for you as well in this journey.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@tigerlily99 Thank you so much for the input! I'm glad you found my thoughts helpful. I'll certainly look at that book.

Your post actually described what I was trying to say far better than I seem to have said it!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Once again I would like to point out that all your thinking was about yourself. No, what did I just do to my spouse.
> 
> In this sense you fit in the pattern of most WSs. This is precisely the point @Affaircare was making about them.


Good heavens, @sokillme ! Did you ever get the message! YES this!!

See the real turning point, the TRUE TURNING, is when you look up, the scales fall from your eyes, and you literally SEE the pain in your spouse's face. There are stains from where they've been crying. There are wrinkles from all the worrying. There are bags from night after night of sleepless hell. Something within you shifts when you look at what you have done and SEE IT, and you stop blaming and justifying and saying "Yeah but..." and with defenses down the place in you sees the full hurt in them and you know that YOU DID THAT to another human being! 

That is the precipice! But it's also turning for basing everything on "self" and turning your eyes to others. Not 100% trusting or 100% selflessly--that's unhealthy too--but rather, basing love on getting to know the person who took another risk, and basing love on a decision to BE loving (not be loved), and basing love on acting to protect them...even if that means protecting them from you!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Good heavens, @sokillme ! Did you ever get the message! YES this!!
> 
> See the real turning point, the TRUE TURNING, is when you look up, the scales fall from your eyes, and you literally SEE the pain in your spouse's face. There are stains from where they've been crying. There are wrinkles from all the worrying. There are bags from night after night of sleepless hell. Something within you shifts when you look at what you have done and SEE IT, and you stop blaming and justifying and saying "Yeah but..." and with defenses down the place in you sees the full hurt in them and you know that YOU DID THAT to another human being!
> 
> That is the precipice! But it's also turning for basing everything on "self" and turning your eyes to others. Not 100% trusting or 100% selflessly--that's unhealthy too--but rather, basing love on getting to know the person who took another risk, and basing love on a decision to BE loving (not be loved), and basing love on acting to protect them...even if that means protecting them from you!


I guess this moment was dampened for me. As I said earlier, my husband cried once, didn't sleep in our apartment while I was in the hospital, and didn't forgive me for some six weeks, which I now know in the grand scheme of things is nothing flat. There were never sleepless nights, except when *I* was suffering flashbacks and nightmares. He never cried afterwards. He was never short-tempered, sullen, or morose. Compared to the stories I've read here, there was very little pain to see, therefore my own epiphany was less about what I did to him and more about who I was, and what I COULD HAVE done to him.

The thing of it is, he didn't seem really all that hurt. Yes, he was for a very short while, but he recovered faster than normal. In the back of my mind, I wonder if he's rugsweeping, and I have the "Things Every Wayward Spouse Needs to Know article saved on my computer just in case he is knocked to the floor with full-blown PTSD some years from now. Every few months or so, though, we'll talk about it when we play "The And", and he'll say he's okay, that he's over it, that he knows I wouldn't cheat again, that he's just glad I didn't get kidnapped and raped. Often, when I watch him sleeping or read posts by other BHs, I do feel a twinge of, for lack of a better phrase, nurturing instinct. I want to go over and hold him, and cuddle him, and tell him I love him and I'm sorry for hurting him 3 years ago. Usually I do. He'll cuddle me back, smiling, and say he forgives me.

But his pain- since there really isn't any- doesn't consume his life or mine. There's nothing nothing from which I must protect him, except for preventing future affairs and trying to manage my precarious mental health. Hence, the focus on self-care.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Not going to deny it, it's true. I think of myself first, and others after the fact. I am still capable, however, of putting myself aside _temporarily_ if I see that someone else (like my BH) needs me. I know how to give romantic gestures, sweet words, lavish dates, and all sorts of other things that say, "I'm thinking of you". That makes him very happy, and when I see the look in his eyes I am inclined to think that my efforts, the things I already know how to do, are enough.
> 
> Yet you say it's not. It is VERY difficult for me to put aside my own emotions when I'm hurting, in order to console someone else who is also hurting. I'm more than willing to do it, when I think of it. But it somehow doesn't occur to me to think of it! Every single time you post and ask me to empathize with my husband over my infidelity, it always takes me by surprise, even though you've said it a lot! I honestly do WANT to think of him first, in more ways than just planning dates, giving cuddles, and writing love notes. I just _don't_ for some reason. It just falls out of my brain, like I've got some kind of selective memory impediment. It's not that I'm ignoring his side of the story intentionally; I just forget!
> 
> ...


Ella, marriage is giving your life to the person. It's saying I am now living for you. Now of course you should know I don't advice that once you have been abused, but in a normal everyday marital relationship this is what is needed. Your spouse should do the same. Again romance is great it's like desert, but the meat and potatoes is the giving. The forcing yourself with your actions to think, how is this affecting my other half. When you do that you experience a much greater level of intimacy. You both become dependent on each other. This is a different kind of love then you see in romance novels and Disney. It is the kind that make you inseparable. It is the warm blanket kind of love. The concrete kind. 

Think about what you just wrote. You had an affair and yet you forget about his side of the story? I think the fact that your husband has taken this so well in the long run has be detrimental to your learning about yourself. That is not a judgement on him but it is the dynamic that you find yourself in. You write a lot about you. This post is about WS as it relates to you. 

Now write about the BS, I want you to put yourself in that situation, your a writing major, you should be able to do that. How would you feel if your husband were to do that to you. What healing would you need then.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

tigerlily99 said:


> I've been reading this new thread and find it very fascinating. I feel like I understand where you are coming from @EllaSuaveterre and I look forward to reading a bit more in depth.
> This last bit of information about not remembering to think first about your BH's feelings is interesting and it got me thinking. Perhaps one of the very problems that WS's have is that very thing, not knowing how to self soothe. Always looking to an experience or another person to make happiness and comfort happen for them. When it begins to wane in the primary relationship the WS looks elsewhere because he/she is so reliant on others to keep them happy/safe/entertained or whatever.
> This in itself is an issue that needs to be addressed with inner healing of the emotions and perhaps even ptsd, csa or other forms of past abuse or neglect.
> 
> It's not something that often shows itself in a spouse until they have inwardly 'decided' that they aren't going to get their needs met within their current relationship. This in itself is not infidelity, but to a person who relies on others to give them the emotional stability they need it is (unfortunately) an open door to the possibility of infidelity if another person presents themselves in that vulnerable state.


Someone who has these tendencies shouldn't be married. They are too much of a risk. This kind of thinking would be a huge red flag for me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Good heavens, @sokillme ! Did you ever get the message! YES this!!
> 
> See the real turning point, the TRUE TURNING, is when you look up, the scales fall from your eyes, and you literally SEE the pain in your spouse's face. There are stains from where they've been crying. There are wrinkles from all the worrying. There are bags from night after night of sleepless hell. Something within you shifts when you look at what you have done and SEE IT, and you stop blaming and justifying and saying "Yeah but..." and with defenses down the place in you sees the full hurt in them and you know that YOU DID THAT to another human being!
> 
> That is the precipice! But it's also turning for basing everything on "self" and turning your eyes to others. Not 100% trusting or 100% selflessly--that's unhealthy too--but rather, basing love on getting to know the person who took another risk, and basing love on a decision to BE loving (not be loved), and basing love on acting to protect them...even if that means protecting them from you!


It's not like you didn't make it plain. :wink2:

That has kind of been the point with this whole thread hasn't it in a way. It's were people take offense. I think what you said about WS and the self centered universe it very true. From your writing here I think you got it at some point and changed. From our last discussion and this one this quote right here would make me think that R with you would be possible, and since your husband had it in him I would think you well be OK. This is the kind of thinking that is needed. Sadly I think most don't GET it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Ella, marriage is giving your life to the person. It's saying I am now living for you. Now of course you should know I don't advice that once you have been abused, but in a normal everyday marital relationship this is what is needed. Your spouse should do the same. Again romance is great it's like desert, but the meat and potatoes is the giving. The forcing yourself with your actions to think, how is this affecting my other half. When you do that you experience a much greater level of intimacy. You both become dependent on each other. This is a different kind of love then you see in romance novels and Disney. It is the kind that make you inseparable. It is the warm blanket kind of love. The concrete kind.
> 
> Think about what you just wrote. You had an affair and yet you forget about his side of the story? I think the fact that your husband has taken this so well in the long run has be detrimental to your learning about yourself. That is not a judgement on him but it is the dynamic that you find yourself in. You write a lot about you. This post is about WS as it relates to you.
> 
> Now write about the BS, I want you to put yourself in that situation, your a writing major, you should be able to do that. How would you feel if your husband were to do that to you. What healing would you need then.


Well, if he were to cheat on me, my reaction would be VASTLY different than how he must have felt or how he must feel. Mostly because _his_ first instinct when in emotional turmoil is not suicide. I don't know whether I would want healing from the very person who hurt me. Hypocritically, I don't know that I'm the sort to offer reconciliation. Not because Mr. Suaveterre would be a bad person, but because with as many anxiety issues as I have _now_, with him being utterly devoted to me, I would be far, far too afraid to try once he'd cheated.

As to him... He was at work when he got the call from my mother that she was taking me to the mental hospital, being that it was 9:30 in the morning. That must have terrified him, being trapped at work and not having any idea what had happened. The few days leading up to my hospitalization, he knew little-to-nothing about OM, but he did know I was stressed out. I told him the night before that if I knew where to find heroin, I'd start doing heroin because it was probably the only thing strong enough to calm my nerves. So that was all the context he had. Had I actually _found_ heroin and overdosed? Were they sure I was alive? Did I finally slit my wrists like I always halfheartedly joked about when I was feeling low? Mr. Suaveterre is NOT the kind of person to sit and worry over anything he can't solve using binary, but I imagine he must have had a hard time putting it from his mind.

It would be Tuesday before the hospital was open to visitors, and he was there at the first opportunity. I had decided he needed to know the truth, and I told him, "I cheated on you. I'm in love with someone else." and I handed him the pieces of loose printer paper out of which I had made a makeshift journal during my 4 days at the hospital. He read everything. I wrote that I was upset that my marriage was ending, but that I loved OM, and that was the way it was. A single tear fell down his face. Every other woman he'd ever loved had broken up with him, and now this one, too. Even though I promised to heal him from all his other relationships, and until that day, he thought I had. Now he had more empirical evidence that he just wasn't good enough- rich enough, tall enough, handsome enough- to be loved forever. And why the hell was it THAT guy?? He hadn't heard THAT name in months and now his wife's in love with him?!

I asked him why he was crying. He replied, "Why do you think?" I said, "I'm not leaving with (OM'S name). The plane would have left Sunday. I'm staying with you. I'm sorry, about all of it. I wish our marriage wasn't like this." Most likely he had been 100% unaware our marriage was "like this" because it was only desolate, loveless, and terrible from my vantage point. I asked him then if he would forgive me. He said "Maybe". We sat in silence for a little while. Then, he put his arms around me and held me and said, "I hope you get better" and left. It must have taken a lot of strength to hug me then. Or maybe it didn't. Our secondary love languages are both physical touch. Maybe he was just craving something familiar, something that used to be safe. Maybe he just didn't want to make a scene in a public setting such as the foyer of the local nuthouse.

He didn't stay in the apartment for the entire week. He slept at my parents', which couldn't have been too terribly much better, because he left his home country of England to be with me. Literally everything in his world, thus, was connected to me. He probably just wanted to be in England, in his village, in the pub, at age 25 again, with no Ella at all, ever. Skip to an alternate universe where we never met and he never had to get his hopes up and have them crushed in the most unexpected and horrifying way imaginable. He might or might not have been considering buying his _own_ plane ticket and going the hell home.


A couple weeks passed, and his wife was home, and having nightmares about EVERYTHING almost every night, and constant panic attacks, and would occasionally just stop everything she was doing and stare into the middle distance until someone physically grabbed her shoulders and moved her along. Between this and the cheating, he must have been convinced I had finally gone truly, insanely crazy. He probably also thought that during our first six months of marriage when I couldn't stop sobbing and was summarily diagnosed with major depression, but this was different. Worse. But he's a programmer. A fixer. He takes broken things and makes them work again. It was just what he did. And what he was going to do.

BRB, I have to go hug the living daylights out of my husband.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Today, I talked to my husband about the affair. I was the one who brought it up. I said, "Darling... I was just thinking about how brave you are. It took a lot of courage, I'm sure, to take me back and continue to love me and to support BOTH of us...during... you know... what happened in 2014. I admire your bravery." He sat down beside me on the bed, pinned me down beneath his body and hugged me tight. He then replied simply, "It's in the past." I wasn't sure if it was an _I don't want to think about this_ sort of reply or if it was an _is she having a flashback_ sort of reply. I went on, "I know it's in the past, but I just want you to know that I still think about it... about what happened... what I did... about you. I wish I had been more emotionally present with you back then so I could have helped you." Again he replied, "It's okay; it's in the past."

Ehh. Something tells me if I tried to focus any more on his pain (or lack thereof) he'd be less than thrilled.

On the upside, though, Mr. Suaveterre ran out of his favourite breakfast smoothie. He was sleeping in my spare bed and said he was too tired to get up and go to the store, so I made him a smoothie of my own recipe. It was actually probably healthier and more nourishing than the store-bought ones. He thanked me. <3


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Well, if he were to cheat on me, my reaction would be VASTLY different than how he must have felt or how he must feel. Mostly because _his_ first instinct when in emotional turmoil is not suicide. I don't know whether I would want healing from the very person who hurt me. Hypocritically, I don't know that I'm the sort to offer reconciliation. Not because Mr. Suaveterre would be a bad person, but because with as many anxiety issues as I have _now_, with him being utterly devoted to me, I would be far, far too afraid to try once he'd cheated.
> 
> As to him... He was at work when he got the call from my mother that she was taking me to the mental hospital, being that it was 9:30 in the morning. That must have terrified him, being trapped at work and not having any idea what had happened. The few days leading up to my hospitalization, he knew little-to-nothing about OM, but he did know I was stressed out. I told him the night before that if I knew where to find heroin, I'd start doing heroin because it was probably the only thing strong enough to calm my nerves. So that was all the context he had. Had I actually _found_ heroin and overdosed? Were they sure I was alive? Did I finally slit my wrists like I always halfheartedly joked about when I was feeling low? Mr. Suaveterre is NOT the kind of person to sit and worry over anything he can't solve using binary, but I imagine he must have had a hard time putting it from his mind.
> 
> ...


It sounds like the bolded is when he became a man, Ella. He saw outside of his own pain to that of someone more vulnerable than himself. 

And you, even if unintentionally, gave him that opportunity. As he matures, and despite the pain it brought to both of you, he may be thankful to you.

And you continue to offer him opportunities to grow. Every time you try to initiate deep conversations, ask him questions about his feelings, share your own heartfelt sorrows and dreams, you model communication and connection to him.

He is a lucky man to be with you, Ella. Not every woman can offer him the genuineness and stimulation that you can.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Today, I talked to my husband about the affair. I was the one who brought it up. I said, "Darling... I was just thinking about how brave you are. It took a lot of courage, I'm sure, to take me back and continue to love me and to support BOTH of us...during... you know... what happened in 2014. I admire your bravery." He sat down beside me on the bed, pinned me down beneath his body and hugged me tight. He then replied simply, "It's in the past." I wasn't sure if it was an _I don't want to think about this_ sort of reply or if it was an _is she having a flashback_ sort of reply. I went on, "I know it's in the past, but I just want you to know that I still think about it... about what happened... what I did... about you. I wish I had been more emotionally present with you back then so I could have helped you." Again he replied, "It's okay; it's in the past."
> 
> Ehh. Something tells me if I tried to focus any more on his pain (or lack thereof) he'd be less than thrilled.
> 
> On the upside, though, Mr. Suaveterre ran out of his favourite breakfast smoothie. He was sleeping in my spare bed and said he was too tired to get up and go to the store, so I made him a smoothie of my own recipe. It was actually probably healthier and more nourishing than the store-bought ones. He thanked me. <3


Have you ever said to him, "I need you to talk about it. I need to hear your heart speak to me about it. Even if it is painful to me, I want to know you--all of you."

What happened to you was obviously traumatizing. I think it could be very healing for you to hear how he was affected, too, deep in his heart. It would probably make you feel even more loved to know how much he was affected, and what has gone through his mind since.

It is hard to be a feeler married to a thinker. It can feel like you are reaching deep inside their heads, trying to find and pull out a feeling to examine. 

And yet those feelings are essential for feeling emotionally connected to them. That sort of exchange simply must happen for there to be deep understanding and bonding.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Have you ever said to him, "I need you to talk about it. I need to hear your heart speak to me about it. Even if it is painful to me, I want to know you--all of you."
> 
> What happened to you was obviously traumatizing. I think it could be very healing for you to hear how he was affected, too, deep in his heart. It would probably make you feel even more loved to know how much he was affected, and what has gone through his mind since.
> 
> ...


It had never occurred to me that _I_ could ask and bring it up and explicitly state it was for my _own_ sake. I would be very scared to do so just out of the blue on an afternoon. I'd be afraid he's shut me down, or get overwhelmed, or get hurt, or wonder if I'd broken my 3-year NC with the OM, or any combination of those. If he doesn't want to talk about it, I don't want to force him into a corner. He might get uncomfortable and then I'd have to deal with the guilt that happens when you hurt someone you love. I'm not even sure it's my right to ask him to talk about it.

But there is one way I can get my answers... maybe we can play _The And_ on Thursday, when it's my day to choose what we do for the evening. I could... ahem... arrange the cards so that a question relating to affairs comes up, and from there ask my question. He _always_ answers in multiple sentences when we play _The And._ Those are the rules, and the structure of it gives us a sort of sanctuary, since we know beforehand that some kind of emotional topic is going to come up, and we know we must be honest, detailed, and calm no matter what.

Sometimes I wish we could play _The And_ forever, or treat every conversation like that.

Or, y'know, I could just sit him down and ask him... and tell him about the above things that scare me, too... if he could be brave, so can I. I just don't want him to get upset with me for any reason. I wouldn't mind if he was upset over the affair; that's 100% reasonable. I mean I don't want him to be angry or frustrated with me for wanting to talk about it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It was three years in and the newlywed butterflies were dying for the first time.* I didn't know that 1) that happens in all marriages; limerant feelings of infatuation diminish and 2) those feelings are supposed to be revived through continued acts of kindness and romantic gestures. *I literally just thought, "Wow, I thought I was supposed to have butterflies every time I look at my husband forever. I never thought I could fall out of love with him... I guess this means we're through."
> 
> The OM found me at about that time and told me he could take me out of my home and my marriage before my husband divorced me and left me with nothing, so even if I wasn't compatable with him in every way (or any way) I figured I had better get off the boat as fast as I could while there was still a lifeboat waiting to take me away.


I am not sure about the bolded. Or maybe it just works differently for different people?

I have a great deal of respect for my husband. He is not romantic, and that is indeed a disappointment. 

But he is so _smart_. And so _kind_. Such a genuinely _good_ and _mature_ man. And I just find that so _ inspiring._

I guess you are right, Ella. It is my husband's character that pulls me back towards him every time I start feeling disappointed in him. 

I think the difference in our marriages is that in your marriage, you are the one taking responsibility for nurturing the marriage. And in mine, it is my husband who is inspiring me, consistently drawing me back towards him.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> I have a great deal of respect for my husband. He is not romantic, and that is indeed a disappointment.
> 
> But he is so _smart_. And so _kind_. Such a genuinely _good_ and _mature_ man. And I just find that so _ inspiring._


I resonate with the above so much. He appears to have the emotional capacity of a potato, but when I look in his eyes and see them smile, turned up at the corners, sparkling and dancing... I can tell he really, truly loves me. When I see him look at me like that, that, all on its own, is poetry.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It had never occurred to me that _I_ could ask and bring it up and explicitly state it was for my _own_ sake. I would be very scared to do so just out of the blue on an afternoon. I'd be afraid he's shut me down, or get overwhelmed, or get hurt, or wonder if I'd broken my 3-year NC with the OM, or any combination of those. If he doesn't want to talk about it, I don't want to force him into a corner. He might get uncomfortable and then I'd have to deal with the guilt that happens when you hurt someone you love. I'm not even sure it's my right to ask him to talk about it.
> 
> But there is one way I can get my answers... maybe we can play _The And_ on Thursday, when it's my day to choose what we do for the evening. I could... ahem... arrange the cards so that a question relating to affairs comes up, and from there ask my question. He _always_ answers in multiple sentences when we play _The And._ Those are the rules, and the structure of it gives us a sort of sanctuary, since we know beforehand that some kind of emotional topic is going to come up, and we know we must be honest, detailed, and calm no matter what.
> 
> ...


Please do not walk in fear. There is no need to. 

You radiate light, and love. Trust in that. 

Be transparent with him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ellasuaveterre said:


> i resonate with the above so much. He appears to have the emotional capacity of a potato,


:grin2:



> but when i look in his eyes and see them smile, turned up at the corners, sparkling and dancing... I can tell he really, truly loves me. When i see him look at me like that, that, all on its own, is poetry.




Beautiful, Ella.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You might like this book, Ella:

https://www.amazon.com/Love-Heaven-Practicing-Compassion-Yourself/dp/1501143271


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It had never occurred to me that _I_ could ask and bring it up and explicitly state it was for my _own_ sake. I would be very scared to do so just out of the blue on an afternoon. I'd be afraid he's shut me down, or get overwhelmed, or get hurt, or wonder if I'd broken my 3-year NC with the OM, or any combination of those. If he doesn't want to talk about it, I don't want to force him into a corner. He might get uncomfortable and then I'd have to deal with the guilt that happens when you hurt someone you love. I'm not even sure it's my right to ask him to talk about it.
> 
> But there is one way I can get my answers... maybe we can play _The And_ on Thursday, when it's my day to choose what we do for the evening. I could... ahem... arrange the cards so that a question relating to affairs comes up, and from there ask my question. He _always_ answers in multiple sentences when we play _The And._ Those are the rules, and the structure of it gives us a sort of sanctuary, since we know beforehand that some kind of emotional topic is going to come up, and we know we must be honest, detailed, and calm no matter what.
> 
> ...


You are married, ask for what you need. Part of being a spouse is being willing to give those things. When you are married to someone occasionally you have to do things that are uncomfortable. Just ask him to talk to you. Tell him your fears. This is how intimacy is built.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Today, I talked to my husband about the affair. I was the one who brought it up. I said, "Darling... I was just thinking about how brave you are. It took a lot of courage, I'm sure, to take me back and continue to love me and to support BOTH of us...during... you know... what happened in 2014. I admire your bravery." He sat down beside me on the bed, pinned me down beneath his body and hugged me tight. He then replied simply, "It's in the past." I wasn't sure if it was an _I don't want to think about this_ sort of reply or if it was an _is she having a flashback_ sort of reply. I went on, "I know it's in the past, but I just want you to know that I still think about it... about what happened... what I did... about you. I wish I had been more emotionally present with you back then so I could have helped you." Again he replied, "It's okay; it's in the past."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




People handle things differently. And you need to respect how your husband handles it. It's obvious he doesn't want to talk about it or be reminded of it. I am the same way personally. 
People like you Elle want to talk about it. Which should be done with close friends or a therapist. Personally I think you need to drop it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Have you ever said to him, "I need you to talk about it. I need to hear your heart speak to me about it. Even if it is painful to me, I want to know you--all of you."
> 
> What happened to you was obviously traumatizing. I think it could be very healing for you to hear how he was affected, too, deep in his heart. It would probably make you feel even more loved to know how much he was affected, and what has gone through his mind since.
> 
> ...



This strikes me as cruel and generally amounts to pain shopping.

I, too, saw it as the cliffhanger question Ella was dangling out there that I figured a wayward thinking person would probably take a stab at eventually; and, again, I wasn't disappointed or surprised. 

It's not enough he took her back, forgave her and didn't berate or punish her. Instead it's suggested she seek more validation that he cares and loves her by pain shopping for details about all the pain and turmoil he felt inside. I also like how it's wrapped up in niceties that this MUST happen for THEM to feel emotionally connected and for deep understanding and bonding as though this advice was meant to benefit him as well. 

It's like because he was to nice to Ella and pretty non-emotional about it {then and now}, he's being perceived as not really caring and therefore, must be prompted to share his innermost hurts because Ella needs to feel more love and get her admiration fix.

How does Ella put up with such a monster?

{another clue why it's a bad idea to have a waywards guiding waywards} 


I recall a story a betrayed husband shared with me where his foggy undecided wayward wife was trying to figure out if her husband was pretending to be a much better husband or faking it simply to trap her back in the old hopeless desperate marriage. So she asked him to cry and that would help HER believe he was legitimate and sincere. She wanted an emotional response as a reason to consider reconnecting with him versus the logic her husband and everyone else was presenting and demonstrating. He simply told her he'd run out of tears after months of this crap and she'd just have to believe him. 

Maybe he'll share someday and maybe he won't. Maybe he's in denial and trying to act nonchalant about it or maybe, he knew that betrayal day would likely come because that's what happens when a 28 year man marries a teenager with significant abandonment and father issues; and, now, he's just THANKFUL it's over and thinks demonstrating grace towards her is either the best way to keep her from leaving or actually the most loving thing he can do FOR HER {especially considering her family history that he's aware of and how emotional upset she still gets about OM}. Or~~ he's a programmer and he monitors her computer and posting and gets all the validation he needs by reading her posts on the forum. Maybe he's a stoic man, devoid of all emotion and really is over it {not everyone wants to spend their entire life focused on this, it happened, it's over ~~ let's move on}.

Regardless, Ella, you do NOT have to drag this out of him FOR YOU to FEEL "deep understanding and bonding". 

He forgave your betrayal ~~ isn't that enough? 

Why would any wayward NEED their betrayed spouse to share all their pain in greater and greater detail to, themselves, feel more loved?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@Quality: Thanks for your response from the other side of the coin. And thank you for reminding me that he really does love me, because I sometimes wonder due to his lack of emotional responses. I forget that I still have a lot to be thankful for. At least he does try. I told him I was feeling insecure tonight and he hugged me and said, "You are my sweet puffling, and you always will be. I'll never leave you." Even though he sounded a little like he was reciting something he was supposed to memorize, the fact that he knows I need to hear words of comfort and tried to offer them was good enough. He really does try, and that's very meaningful all on its own. He did offer me grace when I assumed he was going to kick me out, and that's a blessing, and I understand that he did so purely as a gesture of lovingkindness.

I didn't end up asking him to talk about how the affair made him feel today, as JLD suggested. I saw a picture in a magazine of the same type of religious jewelry that the OM used to wear, and it was sort of a trigger. I felt like I was going to be sick, and unless I take deep breaths and intentionally focus on something else, I still see him. And I hate it. I hate his face. I see her too, his daughter, way too thin, unkempt, looking scared and vulnerable. I hate seeing these images and I want to forget right now, too. I said to my husband, who was reading the magazine with me, "I have GOT to get over my revulsion to the Tree of Life." He looked confused. "That necklace. That symbol is what HE wore." He still looked confused for a brief second and then I could see it dawn on him. He said, "Oh! That." and he took me in his arms and held me really tightly, so that I'd have to focus on his hug. Mindfulness. It sometimes almost sort of works for me. 

Since Mr. Suaveterre is a man of few words, I have to discern rather a lot through his facial expressions. He still had a blank look for a half-second when I said the word "HE", and he startled ever-so-slightly as he understood to whom I was referring, like the memory was a surprise to him. It's not at the front of his mind. It's not a constant thought in his head. This tells me he really is over it, that he's no longer tormented over it, and that he really does forgive me.

But Quality, you're right. I don't need to traumatize my husband by coaxing him into talking if he doesn't want to.

However I do want to clarify that I didn't ask the question hoping to get or expecting an answer of "Yes, talk to him" or "No, don't talk to him". I was merely asking because asking my husband for help for _my_ emotions about the affair is one of those things they say WWs shouldn't do, but my situation was/is atypical, so I had no idea what would have been the "right" thing to do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> I recall a story a betrayed husband shared with me where his foggy undecided wayward wife was trying to figure out if her husband was pretending to be a much better husband or faking it simply to trap her back in the old hopeless desperate marriage. So she asked him to cry and that would help HER believe he was legitimate and sincere. She wanted an emotional response as a reason to consider reconnecting with him versus the logic her husband and everyone else was presenting and demonstrating. He simply told her he'd run out of tears after months of this crap and she'd just have to believe him.
> 
> Maybe he'll share someday and maybe he won't.


He should have never taken her back, she sounds awful. Maybe he is making a big mistake. 



> Maybe he's in denial and trying to act nonchalant about it or maybe, he knew that betrayal day would likely come because that's what happens when a 28 year man marries a teenager with significant abandonment and father issues; and, now, he's just THANKFUL it's over and thinks demonstrating grace towards her is either the best way to keep her from leaving or actually the most loving thing he can do FOR HER {especially considering her family history that he's aware of and how emotional upset she still gets about OM}. Or~~ he's a programmer and he monitors her computer and posting and gets all the validation he needs by reading her posts on the forum. Maybe he's a stoic man, devoid of all emotion and really is over it {not everyone wants to spend their entire life focused on this, it happened, it's over ~~ let's move on}.


This is what you call a success?

Just saying. >


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ella, I understand it might be hard to become completely transparent with your husband. You may be afraid of his response. You may be afraid of losing the marriage.

I can only tell you that from the very beginning of my relationship with my husband, nearly 24 years and five children ago now, I committed to transparency with him. The way I saw it, if we were going to be a couple, our relationship needed to be based on transparency, because transparency builds trust.

And if he could not handle my transparency, I was okay with losing the relationship. _"Mejor sola que mal acompanada."_


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I don't think he is ever going to give you what you think you need to feel loved. He forgave you. He is a nice guy. No he's not emotional and he's not a romantic. But he loves you with the ability that he knows how. And I don't think this is good enough for you though. 

Life is not a fairy tale. Marriage for sure is not a fairy tale. This whole thing, your whole story seems like In the end you are feeling board, unloved, unsatisfied, restless, searching for something to make you feel a certain way which is why you keep bringing up the past. 

Your husband is fine. He's over it and he is happy. You on the other hand are not fine. Your not satisfied with your current life. You feel like you need him to talk to you about how much you hurt him, you want to see him get emotional and express love very deeply for you. My problem with this is... it goes back to you needing attention and it being all about you. AND why do you want to see your husband hurt... why reopen a scab? Just so you can feel like he does love and care about you? That's selfish. You husband will never be this emotional man, this romantic man that you feel you need him to be. But he's a pretty amazing guy being who he is. Appreciate him for him. Stop yearning for something he can't give you. You will never know peace if you don't stop searching. 

Ella what would you do if your life was exactly like this in 5 years. Would you be happy?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I don't think he is ever going to give you what you think you need to feel loved. He forgave you. He is a nice guy. No he's not emotional and he's not a romantic. But he loves you with the ability that he knows how. And I don't think this is good enough for you though.
> 
> Life is not a fairy tale. Marriage for sure is not a fairy tale. This whole thing, your whole story seems like In the end you are feeling board, unloved, unsatisfied, restless, searching for something to make you feel a certain way which is why you keep bringing up the past.
> 
> ...


I would be happy. I would be content. I would not be elated, but I would be content. I have always struggled with needing emotional intensity in my relationships to feel loved. In high school, my last relationship was based solely on the fact that he felt like he was my knight in shining armor and wanted to save me from my emotional problems. He said all the right things, all the romantic and tender things that he probably learned from watching emotional anime. But after a year of dating him I broke it off. 

I realized I wasn't going to get married to this guy, because as intense as it was it was all very shallow. I understood on some level that the damsel-in-distress dynamic that I need wasn't enough to sustain a long-term relationship. I decided that the next relationship I'd be in would not be based in my needing to be rescued. And the next relationship I was in was with my husband. I knew when we were dating, and I knew when I married him, that he wasn't the type to shower me with sympathetic words. 

But I also know on some level that the fact that he's not emotionally intense enables him to weather my emotional storms without getting exasperated. His clement temperament, even if it's boring, makes him able to withstand things most men couldn't. He doesn't mind my constant weeping spells. He provides for me and takes care of me and even does his best to attend to my emotional needs. I look around me and I see that everything I own, he bought for me. My luxurious bed, a closet literally bursting with dresses, and so. Much. Jewelery. What kind of man would do that for a woman but one who loves her? He genuinely likes the side of me that wants to decorate the whole world pink and watch kids' shows on tv. What man would love that in a woman but one who loves her?

So when I get down about the fact that he's never going to take me in his arms and whisper soothing nothings into my ear as I sob info his chest, then draw me a bath and spoon me all night... I think about all the things he HAS done for me. It's not perfect, but I'm not perfect either, not even to my own standards. And I eventually decide what I already have is good enough. Meanwhile I work on the fact that I need emotional intensity to feel loved in therapy. My therapist is convinced once I master the art of mindfulness and self-love I won't need emotional intensity so much anymore. I remain doubtful, but hopeful.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

But I don't think this has anything to do with the affair. I think this is just who you are and who you have always been. I don't understand the need to always bring up the affair. 
The affair is not something that caused anything or needs to be looked into with a microscope. The affair is a product of you being who you are... needing to feel loved to such a high degree in order to feel loved. THAT needs to be the issue that needs to be worked out. 
I don't understand why you keep harping on the affair. It's not good for you or for him. You were this way before the affair. Now your using the affair as ammo to invoke a reaction out of your husband to make you feel loved. It's not nice. Drop the affair.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> But I don't think this has anything to do with the affair. I think this is just who you are and who you have always been. I don't understand the need to always bring up the affair.
> The affair is not something that caused anything or needs to be looked into with a microscope. The affair is a product of you being who you are... needing to feel loved to such a high degree in order to feel loved. THAT needs to be the issue that needs to be worked out.
> I don't understand why you keep harping on the affair. It's not good for you or for him. You were this way before the affair. Now your using the affair as ammo to invoke a reaction out of your husband to make you feel loved. It's not nice. Drop the affair.


Alright, I won't mention it to him again, if I can help it. I haven't intentionally used the affair as ammo to make myself feel loved. I was going to ask him to show his emotions for me, but more people say that it will end up going badly than say that it will end up going well, so I won't. The only times I've brought the affair up so far are when I've had a trigger. The rest of my thoughts about a generally stay in my head or end up on this forum.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Alright, I won't mention it to him again, if I can help it. I haven't intentionally used the affair as ammo to make myself feel loved. I was going to ask him to show his emotions for me, but more people say that it will end up going badly than say that it will end up going well, so I won't. The only times I've brought the affair up so far are when I've had a trigger. The rest of my thoughts about a generally stay in my head or end up on this forum.


I don't think you bring up the affair to feel loved. Not at all. I think you bring it up because you are still working through the trauma, just on a different level than you did a few years ago. You are talking it through, considering it from different angles. It is surely part of healing.

Now, could talking about it with him end up making you both feel loved? I think so. Deep sharing often has that effect on a couple. Again, opening our heart to our spouse is part of bonding. 

Ella, your last sentence is concerning. Does he know what you are writing here? I think it is important that he does. Again, transparency builds trust. Nothing should be hidden in marriage.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> I don't think you bring up the affair to feel loved. Not at all. I think you bring it up because you are still working through the trauma, just on a different level than you did a few years ago. You are talking it through, considering it from different angles. It is surely part of healing.
> 
> Now, could talking about it with him end up making you both feel loved? I think so. Deep sharing often has that effect on a couple. Again, opening our heart to our spouse is part of bonding.
> 
> Ella, your last sentence is concerning. Does he know what you are writing here? I think it is important that he does. Again, transparency builds trust. Nothing should be hidden in marriage.


He knows of what I write here,but he had not read it himself, to my knowledge. He could if he wanted to; I'd let him. But I'd be embarrassed. And afraid. I don't want to hurt him. I don't know what to do. Part of me really wants to talk about it with him, because I need him and I need his comfort, and I need to know that he knows and that he cares. But maybe the others are right. Maybe I don't have any right to ask that my need to process be met in this way. Maybe I need to process alone, lest I drive him away. Maybe I need to process alone because anything else would be selfish. I don't understand why I'm thinking about OM so much. I also had a relapse into my eating disorder a fortnight ago. I starved myself for 5 days but then I started eating normally again. I don't know why I want to rehash old emotions or why I want to lose weight and stop eating. Maybe I do just want attention, and maybe that's a bad thing. I wish it wasn't. 

I'm going to therapy in a couple hours. I'll talk about it then.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> He knows of what I write here,but he had not read it himself, to my knowledge. He could I'd he wanted to; I'd let him. But I'd be embarrassed. And afraid. I don't want to hurt him. I don't know what to do. Part of me really wants to talk about it with him, because I need him and I need his comfort, and I need to know that he knows and that he cares. But maybe the others are right. Maybe I don't have any right to ask that my need to process be met in this way. Maybe I need to process alone, lest I drive him away. Maybe I need to process alone because anything else would be selfish. I don't understand why I'm thinking about OM so much. I also had a relapse into my eating disorder a fortnight ago. I starved myself for 5 days but then I started eating normally again. I don't know why I want to rehash old emotions or why I want to lose weight and stop eating. Maybe I do just want attention, and maybe that's a bad thing. I wish it wasn't.
> 
> I'm going to therapy in a couple hours. I'll talk about it then.


Oh, Ella, I am so sorry to hear about the eating disorder. 

So glad you are seeing a therapist. I hope he or she can help.

I don't think you are selfish, nor are you simply seeking attention. You are trying to deepen the marriage through transparent communication and vulnerability. It could be very healing for both of you.

I certainly do not see anything wrong with sharing everything in your heart openly with him. Honestly, I think it is very healthy and absolutely essential for a thriving marriage.

Ella, does your therapist know you post here? Does she know the kind of feedback you are getting? 

If you were my daughter (and my own daughter is actually just two years younger than you are), I would urge you to open your whole heart to your husband--complete vulnerability. A strong man can handle that. He won't take it personally. He will likely be moved by his wife's trust in him.

Ella, I do think your husband loves you. I also think he could grow from revisiting what happened, however uncomfortable initially. 

The more you share from your heart with your spouse, the more vulnerable you are, the greater the chance for understanding and bonding. Who would ever _not_ want that in marriage?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Alright, I won't mention it to him again, if I can help it. I haven't intentionally used the affair as ammo to make myself feel loved. I was going to ask him to show his emotions for me, but more people say that it will end up going badly than say that it will end up going well, so I won't. The only times I've brought the affair up so far are when I've had a trigger. The rest of my thoughts about a generally stay in my head or end up on this forum.




I think its 100% ok to tell your husband you need more emotion out of him. I'm like you Ella, I require more from my husband to feel loved because of issues that I have. And my husband knows this. So when I feel I need "more" from him usually because I am feeling vulnerable I tell him this. Babe I'm feeling unloved and vulnerable today... 

You have two separate issues. Your need to feel loved and this affair. The affair has nothing to do with anything. The issue is you sometimes need more love from your husband and that's ok. It's because of who you are as a person, not because of the affair.

So when you need more love and attention, tell him that. Don't bring up the affair to him to invoke a reaction out of him so you feel loved. So you understand what I'm saying?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> So when I feel I need "more" from him usually because I am feeling vulnerable I tell him this. Babe I'm feeling unloved and vulnerable today...
> 
> You have two separate issues. Your need to feel loved and this affair. The affair has nothing to do with anything. The issue is you sometimes need more love from your husband and that's ok. It's because of who you are as a person, not because of the affair.
> 
> So when you need more love and attention, tell him that. Don't bring up the affair to him to invoke a reaction out of him so you feel loved. So you understand what I'm saying?



That's all I usually say too, that I'm having a bad body image day or I'm having bad memories or I just need more love and reassurance. I don't usually go into detail. Meanwhile, I know the affair has nothing to do with anything, yet here I am. I wish I could stop thinking about it. They say every time you remember something, your mind changes the mental picture of the memory just a little bit, until eventually the memory you have looks very little like the actual event. I wonder if what I remember was even real? It's been so long. Why am I still thinking about it? Why is it now that I'm suddenly having more intrusive memories?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree that it COULD bring them together. But it could also tear them apart. Especially if her husband is the kind of man who doesn't want to talk about it and wants to drop it. She has attempted to open up to him multiple times and he clearly said just forget it. He is respectfully saying he doesn't want to talk about it. And I think the more she try's to bring it up, and the more he shuts her down the worse she is going to feel, the more unloved she is going to feel. 

She needs to accept that he loves her in his own way. But he doesn't want to talk about the affair, that's how he deals with it. The more she try's and fails the worse she will feel. She is hurting herself by not letting this affair go. She needs to let it go and accept that he loves her in his own way.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That's all I usually say too, that I'm having a bad body image day or I'm having bad memories or I just need more love and reassurance. I don't usually go into detail. Meanwhile, I know the affair has nothing to do with anything, yet here I am. I wish I could stop thinking about it. They say every time you remember something, your mind changes the mental picture of the memory just a little bit, until eventually the memory you have looks very little like the actual event. I wonder if what I remember was even real? It's been so long. Why am I still thinking about it? Why is it now that I'm suddenly having more intrusive memories?




Your thinking about it because your constantly talking about it Ella.
It's normal to have memorizes here and there. It's not normal to obsess and keep talking about it years after the fact. 
And I love Therapy and I believe in therapy but sometimes you need to stop opening up the scab and just let it heal.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That's all I usually say too, that I'm having a bad body image day or I'm having bad memories or I just need more love and reassurance. I don't usually go into detail. Meanwhile, I know the affair has nothing to do with anything, yet here I am. I wish I could stop thinking about it. They say every time you remember something, your mind changes the mental picture of the memory just a little bit, until eventually the memory you have looks very little like the actual event. I wonder if what I remember was even real? It's been so long. Why am I still thinking about it? Why is it now that I'm suddenly having more intrusive memories?


I think it is coming into your mind because you still have some healing you need to do.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> I agree that it COULD bring them together. But it could also tear them apart. Especially if her husband is the kind of man who doesn't want to talk about it and wants to drop it. She has attempted to open up to him multiple times and he clearly said just forget it. He is respectfully saying he doesn't want to talk about it. And I think the more she try's to bring it up, and the more he shuts her down the worse she is going to feel, the more unloved she is going to feel.
> 
> She needs to accept that he loves her in his own way.* But he doesn't want to talk about the affair, that's how he deals with it.* The more she try's and fails the worse she will feel. She is hurting herself by not letting this affair go. She needs to let it go and accept that he loves her in his own way.


That is not "dealing with it," Katie.

These feelings are not going to just go away, Ella. Your husband needs to hear them, and you.

What are you scared of, ultimately? That he will leave you?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Your thinking about it because your constantly talking about it Ella.
> It's normal to have memorizes here and there. It's not normal to obsess and keep talking about it years after the fact.
> And I love Therapy and I believe in therapy but sometimes you need to stop opening up the scab and just let it heal.


But I only talk about it because I can't stop thinking about it, not the other way around. It is said that the mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart, and for me that is often true.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I think it is coming into your mind because you still have some healing you need to do.




I'm sorry I disagree with this. 

What does she need to get over? She was feeling vulnerable, bored in her marriage, she made a stupid decision to get involved with another man who took advantage of you. She trusted a man, while breaking the trust of her husband and it turned out he wasn't trust worthy after all. Her husband forgave her. Yea she may have some bad memories here and there but again she put herself in an bad situation and it didn't work out. She learned her lesson. 
Your making it bigger than it is. Your letting it consume your life. You need to forget about it, you learned your lesson. She knows why she did it. Her husband forgave her. So what is the problem?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But I only talk about it because I can't stop thinking about it, not the other way around. It is said that the mouth speaks out of the abundance of the heart, and for me that is often true.




Ella why do you keep thinking about it?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> That is not "dealing with it," Katie.
> 
> These feelings are not going to just go away, Ella. Your husband needs to hear them, and you.
> 
> What are you scared of, ultimately? That he will leave you?


I'm afraid that he will tell me that my feelings aren't important. Or that he'll say I don't deserve to talk about them in some way or another. I'm afraid that he might imply either or both of those things through body language. I'm afraid he'll be angry that I can't control my own thoughts. That he'll tell me to stop talking and go away, that I'm bothering him. I don't think he'd leave me, but he might be repulsed by me for a while, worst-case scenario.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> I'm sorry I disagree with this.
> 
> What does she need to get over? She was feeling vulnerable, bored in her marriage, she made a stupid decision to get involved with another man who took advantage of you. She trusted a man, while breaking the trust of her husband and it turned out he wasn't trust worthy after all. Her husband forgave her. Yea she may have some bad memories here and there but again she put herself in an bad situation and it didn't work out. She learned her lesson.
> Your making it bigger than it is. Your letting it consume your life. You need to forget about it, you learned your lesson. She knows why she did it. Her husband forgave her. So what is the problem?


If you were in Ella's shoes, it might all be as simple as you are making it out to be.

I just do not think it is the same for Ella.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm sorry but you will never feel peace if you don't learn to let it go. You learned everything you could about this affair. You are very self aware and you know that. 

If you keep talking about it, discussing it in therapy you are keeping it alive. You are choosing to keep it alive. Ella listen to me... you are choosing to keep it alive. 

What else do you want? What do you need to happen for you to let it go?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella why do you keep thinking about it?


I wish I knew! I don't know! I don't know how to make any of it go away. I can distract myself for a little while, but it always comes back. I remember HE once called me fat. His daughter was underweight and he said he liked thin girls. I wonder if that had anything to do with the EDNOS I developed in 2016. I don't think it does. I wish I could make him go away...

I've been listening to that song from Portal, "Want you gone". That's how I feel about OM.

Well here we are again
It's always such a pleasure
Remember when you tried
to kill me twice?
Oh how we laughed and laughed
Except I wasn't laughing
Under the circumstances
I've been shockingly nice

You want your freedom?
Take it
That's what I'm counting on

I used to want you dead
but
Now I only want you gone

I've been NC with him for 3 years but the memories won't get lost.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> That is not "dealing with it," Katie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Dealing with it?? She made a mistake and she learned her lesson. What do you mean by deal with it? 

Plenty of people have made mistakes that are huge, they learn from them and move on. They don't talk about it for years and let it haunt them. Keep what's in the past in the past. Move forward, look ahead not back.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm afraid that he will tell me that my feelings aren't important. Or that he'll say I don't deserve to talk about them in some way or another. I'm afraid that he might imply either or both of those things through body language. I'm afraid he'll be angry that I can't control my own thoughts. That he'll tell me to stop talking and go away, that I'm bothering him. I don't think he'd leave me, but he might be repulsed by me for a while, worst-case scenario.




What does this have to do with the affair?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm afraid that he will tell me that my feelings aren't important. Or that he'll say I don't deserve to talk about them in some way or another. I'm afraid that he might imply either or both of those things through body language. I'm afraid he'll be angry that I can't control my own thoughts. That he'll tell me to stop talking and go away, that I'm bothering him. I don't think he'd leave me, but he might be repulsed by me for a while, worst-case scenario.


You are very sensitive, Ella. It is part of your sweetness. Your husband surely loves that about you.

And as much as he appreciates your sweetness, he also needs your honesty. He needs it as much for his own growth as for that of the marriage.

It would be a very good idea to tell him what you have written above. You could go to him and very vulnerably share those fears. I think that would be very honest and open, and very healthy.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> What does this have to do with the affair?


 @jld asked me what I was afraid would happen if I talked about my feelings/trauma with my husband. That was my answer.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

What are your feelings Ella? That your unhappy? That you miss the OM?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I wish I knew! I don't know! I don't know how to make any of it go away. I can distract myself for a little while, but it always comes back. I remember HE once called me fat. His daughter was underweight and he said he liked thin girls. I wonder if that had anything to do with the EDNOS I developed in 2016. I don't think it does. I wish I could make him go away...
> 
> I've been listening to that song from Portal, "Want you gone". That's how I feel about OM.
> 
> ...


The only way over this is through it, Ella.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Dealing with it?? She made a mistake and she learned her lesson. What do you mean by deal with it?
> 
> Plenty of people have made mistakes that are huge, they learn from them and move on. They don't talk about it for years and let it haunt them. Keep what's in the past in the past. Move forward, look ahead not back.


Ella is an intelligent young woman, Katie. She is not a rugsweeper. For her to have peace, she needs to work through all of this . . . with her husband.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @jld asked me what I was afraid would happen if I talked about my feelings/trauma with my husband. That was my answer.




Your husband has already forgave you. He knows that you're sorry and he deeply loves you, and he knows that you love him. 

What feelings are you ashamed to tell him?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Your husband has already forgave you. He knows that you're sorry and he deeply loves you, and he knows that you love him.
> 
> What feelings are you ashamed to tell him?


Just that I'm feeling vulnerable and a little overwhelmed with memories and the eating issues and... just... stuff. I'd like to be more eloquent, but I don't know quite how to put it into words.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> What are your feelings Ella? That your unhappy? That you miss the OM?


Maybe that I'm unhappy, but not because of him, and certainly not because I miss the OM. Gods no. I just feel like I want to lock myself in my room all day and cry, and I don't really have a good reason to feel that way anymore, so I'm embarrassed, but the feelings are still there.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Just that I'm feeling vulnerable and a little overwhelmed with memories and the eating issues and... just... stuff. I'd like to be more eloquent, but I don't know quite how to put it into words.




Ok correct me if I'm wrong... these memories are triggering you? You remember he called you fat, so that's why your feeling ugly and stop eating?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Maybe that I'm unhappy, but not because of him, and certainly not because I miss the OM. Gods no. I just feel like I want to lock myself in my room all day and cry, and I don't really have a good reason to feel that way anymore, so I'm embarrassed, but the feelings are still there.




You were feeling unhappy before the affair too Ella. You need to find a way to be happy. And I don't think this affair has anything to do with it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Honestly Ella... I don't think that you are allowing yourself to be happy.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ok correct me if I'm wrong... these memories are triggering you? You remember he called you fat, so that's why your feeling ugly and stop eating?


I don't know. I've always felt fat anyway. I don't know if it has anything to do with him.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I don't know. I've always felt fat anyway. I don't know if it has anything to do with him.




It sounds like your using the affair as a crutch or a scapegoat. The issues you are having aren't related to your affair.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ok Ella do not be offended by this... I'm am just trying something out here... I'm trying to read you here...

You were a young, innocent, sweet, naïve, fairy tale optimistic young girl. You married a man that you perceived as your Prince Charming. You castes all these expectations on him and your life together. When the honeymoon phase ended, you came to know marriage for what it really is, not what you had hoped and dreamed. It wasn't a fairy tale. You felt bored, unhappy, restless, missing passion and romance from your mundane life. You started to search for something to fulfill this hole. You then met a man that made you feel alive again. He told you all these things you wanted to hear, and you casted all hear expectations on him. And again, it didn't turn out how you wished. He took advantage of you, and you committed adultery. When it was over, you were happy to have survived. Your thankful that your husband forgave you, maybe you wish he showed more struggle/hurt/emotion but he didn't. None the less your happy he forgave you. But that little piece of hope of what could have been with the OM died as well. So you had to grieve not the actuality of the OM but the life that could have been. Now years later you find yourself in the same position you were before the affair. Bored, restless, searching for more, yearning more something. Your unhappy but you can't put your finger on why. Your husband although he isn't perfect, he's still wonderful and he can't be the reason your unhappy. So then you think about the affair... well you did go through a lot, maybe that is the reason for your unhappiness. Then you re-open what happened in an attempt to "deal" with it, to "get over it". Even though your husband forgave you and doesn't want to talk about it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ok Ella do not be offended by this... I'm am just trying something out here... I'm trying to read you here...
> 
> You were a young, innocent, sweet, naïve, fairy tale optimistic young girl. You married a man that you perceived as your Prince Charming. You castes all these expectations on him and your life together. When the honeymoon phase ended, you came to know marriage for what it really is, not what you had hoped and dreamed. It wasn't a fairy tale. You felt bored, unhappy, restless, missing passion and romance from your mundane life. You started to search for something to fulfill this hole. You then met a man that made you feel alive again. He told you all these things you wanted to hear, and you casted all hear expectations on him. And again, it didn't turn out how you wished. He took advantage of you, and you committed adultery. When it was over, you were happy to have survived. Your thankful that your husband forgave you, maybe you wish he showed more struggle/hurt/emotion but he didn't. None the less your happy he forgave you. But that little piece of hope of what could have been with the OM died as well. So you had to grieve not the actuality of the OM but the life that could have been. Now years later you find yourself in the same position you were before the affair. Bored, restless, searching for more, yearning more something. Your unhappy but you can't put your finger on why. Your husband although he isn't perfect, he's still wonderful and he can't be the reason your unhappy. So then you think about the affair... well you did go through a lot, maybe that is the reason for your unhappiness. Then you re-open what happened in an attempt to "deal" with it, to "get over it". Even though your husband forgave you and doesn't want to talk about it.


That's pretty much it, yes. To be clear, though, I am not thinking about finding a new AP or, gods forbid, contacting OM. Just the thought of him makes me feel ill. The only difference, I'd say, is that I don't want to "re-open" anything. It just happened all of the sudden.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> So you had to grieve not the actuality of the OM but the life that could have been. Now years later you find yourself in the same position you were before the affair. Bored, restless, searching for more, yearning more something. Your unhappy but you can't put your finger on why. Your husband although he isn't perfect, he's still wonderful and he can't be the reason your unhappy. So then you think about the affair... well you did go through a lot, maybe that is the reason for your unhappiness. Then you re-open what happened in an attempt to "deal" with it, to "get over it". Even though your husband forgave you and doesn't want to talk about it.


The lesson is not to grieve what life could of been, it's that life isn't Disney. If you spend your life trying to make it a fairy tail you are going to end up in the very same position over and over. Disappointed. 

God save us from young people who grow up and think their life is going to be Disney. No one grows up and thinks their life is going to be Star Wars. It would be just as silly to think so.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The lesson is not to grieve what life could of been, it's that life isn't Disney. If you spend your life trying to make it a fairy tail you are going to end up in the very same position over and over. Disappointed.
> 
> God save us from young people who grow up and think their life is going to be Disney. No one grows up and thinks their life is going to be Star Wars. It would be just as silly to think so.


It'll be alright. I learned the last time I felt this way that I have to create my own magic, like the date I had on new year's eve. That was magical, and I planned the whole thing myself. I'll figure out a way to make my own magic. I'm not sure quite how, especially with the memories interrupting my thoughts, but I'll figure out how to make things alright again. I know I will. Maybe tea will help. Or a good book.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That's pretty much it, yes. To be clear, though, I am not thinking about finding a new AP or, gods forbid, contacting OM. Just the thought of him makes me feel ill. The only difference, I'd say, is that I don't want to "re-open" anything. It just happened all of the sudden.




You should let the memories come and go. Don't breath life into them by talking about it. You need to stop talking about the affair and deal with the real issues.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It'll be alright. I learned the last time I felt this way that I have to create my own magic, like the date I had on new year's eve. That was magical, and I planned the whole thing myself. I'll figure out a way to make my own magic. I'm not sure quite how, especially with the memories interrupting my thoughts, but I'll figure out how to make things alright again. I know I will. Maybe tea will help. Or a good book.




Life is more than those surfacey "magic" moments. Your unrealistic expectations are hijacking your happiness. 
You can still be a hopeless romantic but in a realistic way. The real beauty and romance in marriage is in the small things. Not the grand gestures. 

Another thing Ella... are you still a full time student? Do you take online classes or traditional classes? What's your normal day-to-day like? Do you have any friends that you spend time with outside of the Internet? Don't take the to be mean but sometimes when I don't have much going on and I get bored my mind looks for trouble.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm not sure quite how, especially with the memories interrupting my thoughts, but I'll figure out how to make things alright again. I .




You need to realize that things ARE alright.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It'll be alright. I learned the last time I felt this way that I have to create my own magic, like the date I had on new year's eve. That was magical, and I planned the whole thing myself. I'll figure out a way to make my own magic. I'm not sure quite how, especially with the memories interrupting my thoughts, but I'll figure out how to make things alright again. I know I will. Maybe tea will help. Or a good book.


Enjoying the magic is easy, it's learning the love the day to day that makes a good marriage.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Another thing Ella... are you still a full time student? Do you take online classes or traditional classes? What's your normal day-to-day like? Do you have any friends that you spend time with outside of the Internet? Don't take the to be mean but sometimes when I don't have much going on and I get bored my mind looks for trouble.


I am usually a full-time student, but I took this semester off because I'm nearly finished with my degree and the only classes I needed this semester were in a completely different campus. I'll see if they have the same classes at a closer campus next semester, if I sign up as soon as enrollment starts. I don't really have non-internet friends. I do Skype and facetime with my internet friends all the time.

Therapy was well and good. My therapist thinks that the answer to my obsessive thoughts- about eating and about the OM- is better self-care. She says I'm having a bit of a spiral because things feel out of control in my life what with me not being in school, and I used the eating disorder to cope with the thoughts of the OM and the general feeling of disappointment in myself for skipping a semester. She told me I need to get a self-care routine, to make a list of things I'm going to do to look after my psyche. And then, of course, do them. She said she's at least happy that over the last few days I've been better with that.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Honestly Ella... I don't think that you are allowing yourself to be happy.


There's a lot of truth to this. You have even admitted that you struggled when things seem to be on an even keel. I see this as the same type of thinking that landed you in your Affair to begin with.

Things feel flat. 

Ella begins to feel uncomfortable.

Ella looks for new emotional input.

The most important question you can answer for yourself, Ella, is why you are unable to be still.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> There's a lot of truth to this. You have even admitted that you struggled when things seem to be on an even keel. I see this as the same type of thinking that landed you in your Affair to begin with.
> 
> Things feel flat.
> 
> ...


Why are you unable to (happily) accept sex once a month, far?

Different people, different needs.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> There's a lot of truth to this. You have even admitted that you struggled when things seem to be on an even keel. I see this as the same type of thinking that landed you in your Affair to begin with.
> 
> Things feel flat.
> 
> ...



I'm kind of always struggling. I can have good days, but they're good _days_, not good weeks or months. It might be a stressful situation or it might be just my anxiety and depression, but usually my "average" mood is somewhere between mildly upset and painfully upset. I have learned how to live like this, sort of. I vent on the internet a lot. I drink tea and have bubble baths and meditate. My "normal" and my "okay" are probably very different than yours. I can consider it a "good day" if I only cry once that day or don't have any flashbacks. I consider the day a success if I take my medicine, eat something at least once, and get dressed.

I'm usually fairly successful in school, with 3.7 GPA, so many days are okay for me.

But never have I had a day where I was 100% free of intrusive thoughts of some kind, or panic attacks, or depression, or general restlessness. That just doesn't happen for me. It hasn't for at least 13 years now. I'm used to it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm kind of always struggling. I can have good days, but they're good _days_, not good weeks or months. It might be a stressful situation or it might be just my anxiety and depression, but usually my "average" mood is somewhere between mildly upset and painfully upset. I have learned how to live like this, sort of. I vent on the internet a lot. I drink tea and have bubble baths and meditate. My "normal" and my "okay" are probably very different than yours. I can consider it a "good day" if I only cry once that day or don't have any flashbacks. I consider the day a success if I take my medicine, eat something at least once, and get dressed.
> 
> I'm usually fairly successful in school, with 3.7 GPA, so many days are okay for me.
> 
> But never have I had a day where I was 100% free of intrusive thoughts of some kind, or panic attacks, or depression, or general restlessness. That just doesn't happen for me. It hasn't for at least 13 years now. I'm used to it.


Ella, you have cerebral palsy, correct? You are unable to do much physical activity?

Do any of your internet friends also have this condition? Do you belong to any CP Internet forums?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, you have cerebral palsy, correct? You are unable to do much physical activity?
> 
> Do any of your internet friends also have this condition? Do you belong to any CP Internet forums?


No. I wish I did; that would be quite refreshing. Many of my friends are disabled, though, and/or chronically ill. I do know people who very much "get it" in terms of executive functioning not being where it should be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> No. I wish I did; that would be quite refreshing. Many of my friends are disabled, though, and/or chronically ill. I do know people who very much "get it" in terms of executive functioning not being where it should be.


Are there CP boards?

I just think it might be comforting for you to talk with people who completely understand some of the challenges you face every day.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm kind of always struggling. I can have good days, but they're good _days_, not good weeks or months. It might be a stressful situation or it might be just my anxiety and depression, but usually my "average" mood is somewhere between mildly upset and painfully upset. I have learned how to live like this, sort of. I vent on the internet a lot. I drink tea and have bubble baths and meditate. My "normal" and my "okay" are probably very different than yours. I can consider it a "good day" if I only cry once that day or don't have any flashbacks. I consider the day a success if I take my medicine, eat something at least once, and get dressed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is how you are all the time correct? Even before the affair?


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Why are you unable to (happily) accept sex once a month, far?
> 
> 
> 
> Different people, different needs.




That's different. His wife is withholding sex from him. Ella is self sabotaging herself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> That's different. His wife is withholding sex from him. Ella is self sabotaging herself.


No, it is not different. Her husband is withholding sharing his feelings from her. If Ella is self-sabotaging, then so is far.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> No, it is not different. Her husband is withholding sharing his feelings from her. If Ella is self-sabotaging, then so is far.




No he's not. They addressed it when it happened, he forgave her and he put it to bed so to speak. 

Some people, like myself like to address an issue, deal with it then and there, and are finished with it. And they don't want to hear it again. That's actually healthy. You don't need to bring sh*t up from the past... hey remember when I cheated on you... yea that was something.

Not every man has a ton of feelings to share. Your asking something out of him that isn't realistic. Leave the man alone. In his eyes he's done and over with it. But why isn't she over it? What does she need to hear from him? Aren't actions louder than words? 

If my husband cheated on me, I would address it and be done and not want to think or talk about it again. And if he kept bringing it up to me... I don't think I would be able to handle it. At the end of the day I would cough it up to...he made a stupid mistake and he learned his lesson. No need to speak on it again because it was a stupid mistake. But if he kept bringing it up... then it must of meant way more to him, then it wasn't a stupid mistake.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

@jld what does she need to get over and deal with exactly?

She was unhappy and anxious before the affair. And she's unhappy and anxious after the affair. So why do you put so much emphasis on talking about the affair? The affair isn't the issue... it's her unhappiness to have the affair to begin with that's the issue.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> No he's not. They addressed it when it happened, he forgave her and he put it to bed so to speak.
> 
> Some people, like myself like to address an issue, deal with it then and there, and are finished with it. And they don't want to hear it again. That's actually healthy. You don't need to bring sh*t up from the past... hey remember when I cheated on you... yea that was something.
> 
> ...





katiecrna said:


> @jld what does she need to get over and deal with exactly?
> 
> She was unhappy and anxious before the affair. And she's unhappy and anxious after the affair. So why do you put so much emphasis on talking about the affair? The affair isn't the issue... it's her unhappiness to have the affair to begin with that's the issue.


Katie, the issue has not been put to bed for her. She needs to work through it more. And she wants to work through it with him, since they are the two most hurt by the whole experience. 

Maybe your way works for you, though I am not sure. Your thoughts and methods seem awfully simplistic to me. I definitely do not think they would work for Ella.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Katie, the issue has not been put to bed for her. She needs to work through it more. And she wants to work through it with him, since they are the two most hurt by the whole experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe your way works for you, though I am not sure. Your thoughts and methods seem awfully simplistic to me. I definitely do not think they would work for Ella.




What issue? What does she need to work through?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> What issue? What does she need to work through?


The whole thing, probably. I don't think she ever got closure on it, especially as relates to her husband.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I find it strange that you or Ella cant verbalize the "issue". She had an affair, and he forgave her. What else is there?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

She doesn't love the OM, she doesn't miss the OM, she loves her husband, her husband loves her. He forgave her. She may have bad memories from it which is normal. What else is there?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> I find it strange that you or Ella cant verbalize the "issue". She had an affair, and he forgave her. What else is there?





katiecrna said:


> She doesn't love the OM, she doesn't miss the OM, she loves her husband, her husband loves her. He forgave her. She may have bad memories from it which is normal. What else is there?


No one may know yet, Katie. But if Ella and her husband can have an openhearted conversation, or better yet, the beginning of many, it may come out.

Not everything can be known in advance. But if each is willing to open up and be vulnerable to the other, many things may emerge that lead to deeper understanding and communion.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ella, first off i want you to know i understand your background and feel compassion. I have been there you have no idea. I feel you have had a rough road in life and for that i am sorry.

But if you want honest opinions i am going to give them in this. I come from a caring and great place of support. But i feel you are not fully happy with your marriage and husband and it will come to a halt at some point.

I feel you love your husband for your emotional fix and needs. He is there to hold you, caress you, tell you sweet things that you need for that. But part of you has a desire for the physical or something of a take charge attitude and your husband is not that guy. 

You want the nice guy to hold and tell you all is well, but there is a part of you that yearns for the take charge guy. The guy to sweep you off your feet. This is why you went to the OM. Problem is your H is not that guy. So i feel you are fixated on talking about your affair to deal with that. You have a need for both type of men but your H is only one of them. I feel you will seek the other part out soon.

I mean your H accepted you telling him you wanted a life with another man. Now you want him to talk about it more. Why? He has forgiven you that is big in enough. I know why cause he doesn't give you the other part of what you crave.

That is not on him that is on you. You know what your H is and what you need. Either that is enough or not. I mean look at this thread. After what you did and your H is standing by you thru it you still cut him. You called him an emotional potato. So that shows me you dont want the soft compassion guy all the time.

I feel you are going to be in a constant struggle of wanting a guy that hugs you and says you are the best along with the guy that says get in the bedroom i am going to have you now. Problem is your H is only one part of that. You need to decide if that is enough. But you wanting to talk about the affair is only satisfying your need not his. 

Be honest with yourself and him. He deserves that much.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Katie, have you ever taken the MBTI? You strike me as an S. Ella seems like an N. That may explain why your thought process and resolution needs are likely different than hers.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@katiecrna... I think the bad memories themselves are the problem. People don't suddenly snap back to their surroundings and realize they haven't actually been processing any visual information- that their eyes were looking but not seeing- and that their brain had been spending the last thirty minutes replaying a conversation, and that they were muttering, "What do you mean you don't believe me?" and "What do you want from me?" and other snippets of their half of a conversation that took place three years ago. People don't wake up in the night after half an hour of sleep with their stomach so tense that rubbing menthol on their solar plexus makes them relax. People don't look at a picture of a necklace in a magazine and want to throw up because it reminded them of the time _he_ tried to use Pagan religious jewelry to literally make them a mindless slave. 

Why all of this decided to take up residence in my head again after a two-year dormancy, I don't know, but I want my husband to know I'm suffering and I want him to hold me and love me and _help me!!_


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @katiecrna... I think the bad memories themselves are the problem. People don't suddenly snap back to their surroundings and realize they haven't actually been processing any visual information- that their eyes were looking but not seeing- and that their brain had been spending the last thirty minutes replaying a conversation, and that they were muttering, "What do you mean you don't believe me?" and "What do you want from me?" and other snippets of their half of a conversation that took place three years ago. People don't wake up in the night after half an hour of sleep with their stomach so tense that rubbing menthol on their solar plexus makes them relax. People don't look at a picture of a necklace in a magazine and want to throw up because it reminded them of the time _he_ tried to use Pagan religious jewelry to literally make them a mindless slave.
> 
> 
> 
> Why all of this decided to take up residence in my head again after a two-year dormancy, I don't know, but I want my husband to know I'm suffering and I want him to hold me and love me and _help me!!_




Who f*cking cares what he did with the jewelry?!?!! I mean obviously you do... but why Ella?? You are giving him too much power. 
They take up residence after 2 years because you haven't let it go. Because you still talk about it.
Ella you are keeping it alive. But why???


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Katie, have you ever taken the MBTI? You strike me as an S. Ella seems like an N. That may explain why your thought process and resolution needs are likely different than hers.




No im pretty sure most people will tell her she needs to let it go. Which is why many people stop responding to this thread.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@Eagle3 

The potato comment was supposed to be clever, a joke. A bit of a jab, true, but it's the only thing I have to complain about regarding my husband. I really was typing it with a wry grin on my face. I don't begrudge him his poetic deficiencies, because he does try. And his eyes, better than his words, show he cares.

Just a few minutes ago I caught him staring at me, smiling.

I asked him what he was smiling about. He said, "I'm smiling at you."

"My sweet, do you want something from me?"

"No. I just like to look at you. I'm smiling because I have you."

<333


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> No im pretty sure most people will tell her she needs to let it go. Which is why many people stop responding to this thread.


This sounds like an S response. Probably SJ.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Thank you @Eagle3 I agree with what your saying.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Who f*cking cares what he did with the jewelry?!?!! I mean obviously you do... but why Ella?? You are giving him too much power.
> They take up residence after 2 years because you haven't let it go. Because you still talk about it.
> Ella you are keeping it alive. But why???



If I knew why I'd stop it. If I knew why, I'd be able to get to the root of the problem and put it to rest so I can get some sleep for once. But I can't. Even my therapist says she's not sure how long it will take to quiet the memories and fears and obsessiveness.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @Eagle3
> 
> The potato comment was supposed to be clever, a joke. A bit of a jab, true, but it's the only thing I have to complain about regarding my husband. I really was typing it with a wry grin on my face. I don't begrudge him his poetic deficiencies, because he does try. And his eyes, better than his words, show he cares.
> 
> ...




Why don't you go cuddle up to your husband and show him this thread. Seriously. If you need his help so much, then why don't you start by having him read this thread... and tell him it's important to you.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If I knew why I'd stop it. If I knew why, I'd be able to get to the root of the problem and put it to rest so I can get some sleep for once. But I can't. Even my therapist says she's not sure how long it will take to quiet the memories and fears and obsessiveness.




Stop making threads about it!!! Stop finding excuses to talk about it. That's what is keeping it alive Ella! I don't get how you don't get that.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

If I keep talking about something how do you think I'm going to stop thinking about it?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Why don't you go cuddle up to your husband and show him this thread. Seriously. If you need his help so much, then why don't you start by having him read this thread... and tell him it's important to you.


He really should be reading this thread, Ella, as well as your other ones. He much more than anyone here needs to know your thoughts and feelings.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Stop making threads about it!!! Stop finding excuses to talk about it. That's what is keeping it alive Ella! I don't get how you don't get that.


But the thoughts remain in my head even when I am silent about them. Actually, more so.

My husband and I are going to play our deep conversation game, "The And", later this evening. And then perhaps we'll take a walk.

Please wish us luck.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> Stop making threads about it!!! Stop finding excuses to talk about it. That's what is keeping it alive Ella! I don't get how you don't get that.


Katie, how many threads have you started complaining about your husband? 

Ella needs to talk things out. It is absolutely best that she talk to her husband. But that does not mean she does not have as much right as anyone here to share her thoughts and feelings.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But the thoughts remain in my head even when I am silent about them. Actually, more so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why don't you stop playing games and just have a real conversation with him Ella? 

Ella your very smart ok. Very smart. You have to drop the affair. You haven't been silent about it since it happened. The thoughts are in your head because you keep them alive in your writing and by talking about it. Your smart Ella and I know that you know that. But the truth is... you dont want it to go away for some reason. If you did, you wouldn't keep it alive.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But the thoughts remain in my head even when I am silent about them. Actually, more so.
> 
> My husband and I are going to play our deep conversation game, "The And", later this evening. And then perhaps we'll take a walk.
> 
> Please wish us luck.


You are right to keep trying to talk to him, Ella. You need to be able to share your heart with him. And he ultimately needs to open up to you, too.

What is not talked out will be acted out. So keep talking!


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Katie, how many threads have you started complaining about your husband?
> 
> 
> 
> Ella needs to talk things out. It is absolutely best that she talk to her husband. But that does not mean she does not have as much right as anyone here to share her thoughts and feelings.




But I am not self sabotaging myself. I can't believe that you can't see how destructive her behavior is to her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> But I am not self sabotaging myself. I can't believe that you can't see how destructive her behavior is to her.


I think whether or not you are self sabotaging could be debated.

Ella, keep sharing your heart. It needs to come out. Ideally it would be with your husband directly. 

But in a pinch, you can certainly share your thoughts here. Please just make sure your husband knows you want him, actually need him, to read everything you are writing here. He is in the marriage with you, not the rest of us.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ella can you answer my post about you at some point needing more.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@Eagle3 I have ultimately decided that if I will someday need more than he can provide, I can learn to give those things to myself, or form husband-approved friendships and vent to them.

We did play The And tonight, but only a half-round, with 5 questions apiece. I did end up telling him that I can't stop thinking about the past, including the affair, and some other traumatic things which I won't go into here. I told him I couldn't stop replaying the worst parts in my head. He told me, without my prompting him, what he does to relieve unwanted thoughts. He imagines the thought as a piece of paper that is then crumpled up and thrown away. He told me to try meditating. And he held me and said he was sorry I was feeling bad. 

I asked him if he was ever upset with me for feeling emotionally unstable. He said no, he wasn't frustrated with me. He doesn't really get exasperated over my mental state. He told me what he does do when I'm having a bad time and ask himself, "What is the worst-case scenario here and can I do anything to mitigate it?" 

I do not feel strong enough to ask him how he felt about the affair, to ask him to share his pain that he has learned to automatically put away. In fact I'm still quite in two minds about whether to ask to begin with. I just want to rest for now. Preferably with him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @Eagle3 I have ultimately decided that if I will someday need more than he can provide, I can learn to give those things to myself, or form husband-approved friendships and vent to them.
> 
> We did play The And tonight, but only a half-round, with 5 questions apiece. I did end up telling him that I can't stop thinking about the past, including the affair, and some other traumatic things which I won't go into here. I told him I couldn't stop replaying the worst parts in my head. He told me, without my prompting him, what he does to relieve unwanted thoughts. He imagines the thought as a piece of paper that is then crumpled up and thrown away. He told me to try meditating. And he held me and said he was sorry I was feeling bad.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you shared as much as you did with him, Ella. As you get stronger, I am sure you will be able to share more.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Why are you unable to (happily) accept sex once a month, far?
> 
> Different people, different needs.


This is a fair point.

What I feel is different with Ella is where she "goes" when the need is not met, which is not a healthy place.

She is taking a path that is trying to trigger emotions, even if they are negative.

This is not a healthy need.

Additionally, while sex a few times a month is more a reasonable need based on looking at people in general, maintaining a constant state of limerence through a lifetime of marriage is not just improbable, but likely impossible.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> This is a fair point.
> 
> What I feel is different with Ella is where she "goes" when the need is not met, which is not a healthy place.
> 
> ...


And when your needs are not met, you immediately go to a healthy place? Were you not mentioning being tempted by porn a while back?

Point is, far, not one of us here deals with everything perfectly. Not one is free from complaints or unfulfilled desires. We are all imperfect and just trying to figure out how to better cope with that, at least imo.

I disagree that she is trying to trigger emotions, and certainly not negative ones. The way I see it, she has a great need for emotional connection, including deep sharing. Considering that emotional connection is the main anchor of modern marriage, I would say that Ella is intuitively pursuing a very effective way to stabilize and nurture a long term relationship.

She is young and will eventually find a balance in all of this. Most of us in the 40+ age group can look back and remember some rather unrealistic ideas we may have had in our early 20s . . .


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> And when your needs are not met, you immediately go to a healthy place? Were you not mentioning being tempted by porn a while back?
> 
> Point is, far, not one of us here deals with everything perfectly. Not one is free from complaints or unfulfilled desires. We are all imperfect and just trying to figure out how to better cope with that, at least imo.
> 
> ...


You put it perfectly, as usual, @jld. I don't try to trigger myself; I get triggered and then try to talk about it or share it in some way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You put it perfectly, as usual, @jld. I don't try to trigger myself; I get triggered and then try to talk about it or share it in some way.


That is a very healthy way of dealing with your triggers, Ella.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I'm ecstatic! As Mr. Suaveterre and I were walking out the door, I said to him, "Hey... you know that marriage forum I post on?"

"Yeah?"

"Maybe tomorrow instead of playing The And, would you be willing to read a certain thread I've posted on there?"

"Yeah, sure. Tomorrow then."

My jaw almost hit the floor. "Really?!"

"Yep."

"You really want to read all my thoughts?? Really? I thought this conversation would be harder! I mean, I'm scared you don't _want_ to know what goes on inside my head and what I write about."

"Well I do. I don't see what's so unusual about it."

So, burden lifted. Tomorrow he reads this thread. Holy gods, I'm kinda nervous!!


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'm ecstatic! As Mr. Suaveterre and I were walking out the door, I said to him, "Hey... you know that marriage forum I post on?"
> 
> "Yeah?"
> 
> ...


A husband in love with his wife ALWAYS wants to know what she is thinking. That is part of an honest trusting relationship. What surprises me is that you are surprised.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

He's on his laptop. I think he's reading it. As in, right now. I'm nervous! Or maybe... I don't know whether I'm _nervous_ or actually _scared_. I've said a lot on here that we haven't spoken about in-depth in months or years, and I don't want to hurt him...

If you're reading this angel-dove, I love you!! <3

(If he comes over here and hugs me and says, "I love you too" I'll know he's read it!)


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi Mr EllaSuaveterre!!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

He read through some of my posts, but not more than one or two pages.

We had our conversation. It was bittersweet. 

On one hand, he does want me to move on from the affair and wants me to "get over it" too. He doesn't know what to suggest for the memories and trauma and problems in general, except to "keep taking your meds and going to therapy". He says, though, that it's well and good to talk about my experiences for the sake of helping those like me, which was my original intent. 

He also did end up telling me the tiniest bit about how he felt on D-day. In his words, "I don't cry a lot, but it was more than just the one tear." I accepted this, and treasured the information he did give me. I told him I was so very sorry for hurting him, and relieved to know he did feel something for me.

He also said that it sometimes made him feel insecure that there was one thing I seem to need as much as air- to be consoled- that he is by all appearances incapable of giving me most of the time. He does try much of the time to be verbally reassuring and talk me down, but he does so with logic and not sweet nothings. I've tried to teach him what I need to hear, but it just doesn't compute. He says he once had such wants that I couldn't meet, but they were never very important, not vital needs, and he's forgotten precisely what they were anyway.

We are just fundamentally different in the way we handle pain, and our individual coping styles have been with us so long it's impossible to change them now. I brood; he forgets.

At least we never have real quarrels. At least he never raises his voice. At least there is only one thing, just the one thing- emotional comfort- that I don't have from him. It could be worse. I am reminded once again, to my disillusioned dismay, that neither of us are one hundred percent what the other wants or needs them to be. maybe 95% or 99% or 93% but not perfect. 

I don't believe in love tonight. I held and kissed him anyway, because closeness and familiarity are a comfort in its own way when one is feeling neglected.

I just need to cry and have some tea.

I probably will believe again in a few days.

Just not right now.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Hi Mr EllaSuaveterre!!


There he is on his boat. He is ready to throw his net overboard and pull closer his shrimp.

That be you, shorty!


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ella you have to do one of two things. Accept and love him and learn to be happy with him. Not to wish he were different. OR leave him and go find your "true love".


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella you have to do one of two things. Accept and love him and learn to be happy with him. Not to wish he were different. OR leave him and go find your "true love".


I want to stay, because I recognise that even if I were to meet someone who could comfort me perfectly, that person would turn out to not be able to do other things that I don't even notice I need, because my husband does them flawlessly. No one has only the flaws you can overlook forever. One is bound to notice one's partner's insecurities and deficiencies someday.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The danger here.... for Ella dear......

If she finds a man so rare...

To dream and caress her soul with such care....

Then he "too" will wonder, as she wonders.....

Is there another lady who has even more jewels to gaze at....

Whose eyes, when viewed, have more storied floors and more of those wonders that I seek....

And when he wonders, he will let his mind wander, Fear Ye, that his flesh to follow....

When his soaring imagination soon to land it's feet flat on the tarmac of his yearning....

And his landing gear be one spear....thrust into another lady who lacks what you fear.....

Lacks what you fear in yourself.....

She assuredly fills that lack, that what you cannot provide....

Her offering is what any 'different' being offers....a new flavor...a new beginning....

Emotional hunger can never be sated....by anyone... forever and a day.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I know you.... Brooder!


The answer: 

You need to occupy every second of your day with busy work.

Whether it be working long hours, or having many needy babies pulling at your skirts, pulling at your patience.

You need to shut down these thoughts of despair...fear of abandonment.

When you aren't doing something....go out and run. Run until your mental juice is converted to glucose. Glucose spent on leg movements not thoughts running amok...a-mud.

If you cannot run, then bike. Being a lady you cannot do these things alone, lest you be snatched off the street or the bike paths. Join groups. Invite Hubby Dear.

I too have this affliction, this brooding. I am chronologically old..now. However, my mind and body have been kept young by converting my extreme anguish [at life] into continual muscle motion.

I live as Peter Pan....while my Doddering Cohorts huff and puff... the last few dozen steps of their life.

I too will fall.....the cracks in the wall are forming. It will be the weakest child in my living, walking tree that slays me. As in a chain....the weakest link shall break...that link is stretching, as I speak.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ella do you want kids? What are your plans after you graduate?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella do you want kids? What are your plans after you graduate?


Not until we are both financially and emotionally ready, which we have discussed. We've both decided we can live with it if this 100% readiness never happens. As much as I value the happily evet after, having a child is so much more serious than getting married. If something goes seriously wrong, you can divorce. You cannot un-have a child, no matter how much you want to.

After I graduate I will endeavor to get a part time job, preferably somewhere where I can write or create.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

In thinking about some things in your thread Ella, it seems like you met your husband when you were a teenager? To me, very few relationships work out in those cases, where someone married their childhood love and they live happily ever after. I mean, a lot of marriages end and the people could have met later, but in your case, I see your issues as not related to your marriage or husband at all, and just that maybe you missed out on dating enough. No one knows who they are at 16, we might think we do, but we don't. And now that you've been married a while, I think it just comes down to you want to date others to see if you missed out. I think your husband should have known that being much older than you, and while he loves you, it's not enough...not because he isn't enough, but because you just became committed too soon, as a teenager. That's my take on your situation.

Not saying you should end the marriage, but you need to figure out if you really want to stay with your husband or if you feel like you missed out on dating more men.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> He also did end up telling me the tiniest bit about how he felt on D-day. In his words, "I don't cry a lot, but it was more than just the one tear." I accepted this, and treasured the information he did give me. I told him I was so very sorry for hurting him, and relieved to know he did feel something for me.


The above is very disturbing. It’s saying that you want to see his pain (at your affair) not as an opportunity to help him but as proof of his love for you. Sorry, but that is *not *love.

Are you going to deliberately hurt him again when you feel unloved in order to see proof of his love (i.e. his pain)?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Red Sonja said:


> The above is very disturbing. It’s saying that you want to see his pain (at your affair) not as an opportunity to help him but as proof of his love for you. Sorry, but that is *not *love.
> 
> Are you going to deliberately hurt him again when you feel unloved in order to see proof of his love (i.e. his pain)?


No. That was not why I got into the affair in the first place, and I would never hurt him deliberately so he could show he loved me. I AM relieved whenever he shows almost ANY passionate emotion towards me (except anger. Anger frightens me), because we all know indifference is the opposite of love.

Today was a much better day. I woke up late, with lines of salt still on my face, and went to the living room to see him. He was on his computer. I sat down on the floor near him. Soon enough, he came over and knelt near me and said, "I'm sorry you're upset." It was what I wanted most to hear that morning. He held me and kissed me and stroked my hair. And we continued on, as normal, as we do, with me being more certain he loved me, and him enjoying the stream of admiration, which had dried up last night, flooding back at full force.

I told him, true love should be able to withstand any conversation, and survive knowing who that person really is, and not who you wish them to be. He told me he had that sort of love for me. I said that, when it came down to it, I supposed I did, too. There are so many ways he tries to comfort me, bond with me, and make me feel safe that aren't verbal, and they are beautiful. I need to remember that.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@EllaSuaveterre, 

In some significant ways, you and MrSuaveterre sound like myself and Dear Hubby. I am an INFP as you are--and my Dear Hubby is INTP or INTJ (right on the verge--he has a few things that he sees in a black and white, right or wrong way). Anyway before I met my Dear Hubby I also rolled along with the emotions, basing my outlook and decisions on "feelings" and how it made me feel or how I felt about it. Now often people use "think" and "feel" interchangeably, but in this instance I honestly mean "Did ___ make me feel centered and in harmony?" or "Did ___ make me feel dissonant and in discord?" And I compared the harmony or "lack thereof" to my core values. Thus, "Did ___ feel harmonious to my core values or did it feel dissonant?" was basically the way I decided things. 

My Dear Hubby, on the other hand, is a very capital T for THINKER!! It's kind of funny, actually--he analyzes and contemplates and systematizes everything from every angle...and then makes a decision based on FACTS! To me, it sort of felt like a computer: data in --> calculate --> data out.  It also felt fairly cold and heartless, and what was very confusing to me is that I knew he was not a cold man. He was warm and loving and thoughtful! How is it possible for there to be such dichotomy in one man?

Anyway, the incident in our lives that lead to my affair was a tragedy that we dealt with very differently. We lost a child that we very much wanted, and then in the medical exams and whatnot afterward found out that we would not be able to have any more children. To us, that was a GIGANTIC double blow (we both adore children and wanted several more). So I dealt with it like an INFP would: I cried. I sorrowed. I wanted hugs and tenderness and gentle reassurance. I reached out. He dealt with it like an INTP would: he did not cry in public. He processed the grief internally. He was unaware there even WERE surroundings, much less others IN the surroundings. He withdrew to contemplate the loss, and once he figured out how to address it, he would come back.

At the time, I did not understand our different personality types, nor did I understand that he was grieving at all. From my point of view, I was dying with pain over the loss, and not only did he not notice, but also if he did notice he did not care! I needed support--he was not there. And we know what happened from there. 

But my point here is that after my affair, I did take the time to learn about our different personality types. It was encouraging to learn about INTPs (and INTJs) and what they are like, what they need, what they have has strong points, and what they have as weaknesses. I could not see that he was mourning because he mourned in a way that was DIFFERENT than me, but that didn't mean he didn't mourn! I just was not aware of it! So I learned about him. Likewise, it was a pleasure to share about INFPs and what we are like, what we need, what are our strong points, and what are our weaknesses. It was like a breath of fresh air to know and be known so fully! And I could tell he was interested--I think because when we talked about it, it was presented in a way that was factual and he LOVES facts! LOL

And in the great big picture, what I learned is that DIFFERENT is not the same as NOT LOVING. Just because he doesn't cry at every movie doesn't mean he is not emotionally moved by things. Just because he does not dredge up the past does not mean he is not hurt. Just because he lets go of things does not mean they didn't affect him. 

One of the best lessons I learned from Dear Hubby is how to recognize that my feelings can change easily: with hunger, when I'm tired, when it's a certain time of month, if I'm ill...all these things can completely change "feelings." Now that's not to say that emotions are not good, but just that they are not firm and steady...they're more like the waves on the ocean, ebbing and flowing and moving and liquid. Thoughts and facts are more steady and firm...they're more like a concrete foundation. A fact is still a fact even if you are hungry or horny! LOL So it helps to make decisions and choices based on things that aren't as transient whilst also recognizing that as someone who's intuitive sometimes I catch something really small and can't place my finger on it but "it doesn't feel right." 

The other major lesson I've learned from Dear Hubby--or really WITH him--is that he is who he is, and "who he is" is not the same as me! He does not think the same way I do; he does not feel the same way I do; and he does not reach the same conclusions I do. He does not do things the way that I do things. And guess what? His way is 100% just as viable and "right" as my way. He is ALLOWED to be "not the same." So when I need a hug and he's not giving me a hug, it is not because he's being unloving or doesn't love me. It's because he is not me! I can ask for what I need. I can make his life easier and just say, "Honey I am feeling so upset about that--could you give me one of those long, comforting type hugs?" That way he doesn't have to guess--he knows exactly what would help! And that's not all--if he doesn't want to give me a long, comforting type hug, he is allowed to say no! I'm not forcing him! But I do ask if he does say no that he would then say what he IS willing to do. So it might go like this:

"Honey I am feeling so upset about that--could you give me one of those long, comforting type hugs?"
"Oh I just can't right now, because I have car grease all over my hands. I would be willing to give you a hug when I'm done changing oil OR I'd be willing to stop right now if you really need it right now, but I'd like to go wash the grease off my hands first." 

Likewise, my Dear Hubby does not bring up my own affair very often and does not seem to show his pain on the outside, but I know during the time he did cry and he did feel pain. I saw it on his face! But for him, he made a decision to let go of it. To him that means he had the right to demand recompense for how I hurt him, and he could have chosen to hold onto it, but instead he made a conscious choice to release it. And to him releasing it means it is over...door closed...look to the future rather than dredging up the past. Now that doesn't mean he didn't ask questions or want "details" but rather than approach them as long "Spanish Inquisition" like interrogations, we agreed to have two questions a day at dinner time. He could ask ANY TWO QUESTIONS and I would answer them fully and in agonizing detail for one hour. After that, we stopped asking and re-started some cuddling or hugging in the present. So on his side, he always knew he could ask anything and I'd answer fully and honestly--and on my side I always knew it wouldn't degrade into one of those four-hour "relationship talks" that end up in a fight.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> We are just fundamentally different in the way we handle pain, and our individual coping styles have been with us so long it's impossible to change them now. I brood; he forgets.


I am going to tell you a little secret that no one really talks about. As far as your quote, welcome to marriage. Every marriage has things in it where the people are fundamentally different. Usually more then one, some big and some small. In a good marriage you learn to live with it, in a great one you learn to try to developed those skills a little bit and at least have empathy for your spouse even if you don't really feel the same way. Wow how lucky you are if you have someone who loves you enough to do that!

This is life. It's OK, the key to success is not in if you think the same way, that's easy and frankly a child's fantasy. The key to success and dare I say a great sign of love is when you absolutely don't and yet you attempt to do so precisely because you love the person. That goes against our very human nature, that is hard. Sounds like Mr. Suaveterre is trying to do that. Your marriage is young if you both keep working on it you will get better at it. 

Again you should be very happy that you have a man who cares enough about you to fight against his nature.

One more thing, I challenge you to think of this differently. If you felt exactly the same about everything as the person you married, why get married? Don't you want to learn and grow. Seriously if you felt the same you would basically be marring yourself. If you have kids part of the joy will be seeing how these kids grow into a human being that has parts of both of you. That is the point of marriage and having kids. Two into one, not clones into one. 

Life is a struggle, marriage is a struggle, everything is a struggle. The living is in the struggle. You are really good when you learn to get some joy out of struggling and eventually succeeding.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

Marriage is a crucible in which our "rough edges" are removed. And I use that word "crucible" purposely, because our former shape is "melted" and then reformed into a better, stronger, more healthy person. You become a better YOU by learning and growing within your marriage. Something new is created--two into one.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Ella I feel a sadness from you. I think that you are at the stage of your marriage where the honeymoon phase is over and the reality of marriage is setting in, and it's not how you thought it would be. 
You need to realize that you are ok, that things are ok. Life doesn't get easier, we just learn how to deal with things. 
It seems like you are so focused on this affair, and trying to get your husband to open up about it but my question to you is why? You know he loves you. And he is the type of person who likes to leaves things in the past. You need to respect that. The big crucial thing is why can't you leave it in the past and why do you need him to talk about it? I think that your focus should be on the future, and improving your marriage. 

I read this thread to my husband... and the only thing he said was... I feel bad for her husband, it's obvious she doesn't love him. 

I'm not sure if I agree with him or not. I think you want to love him. But you just seem SO unhappy. Unhappy and sad.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella I feel a sadness from you. I think that you are at the stage of your marriage where the honeymoon phase is over and the reality of marriage is setting in, and it's not how you thought it would be.
> You need to realize that you are ok, that things are ok. Life doesn't get easier, we just learn how to deal with things.
> It seems like you are so focused on this affair, and trying to get your husband to open up about it but my question to you is why? You know he loves you. And he is the type of person who likes to leaves things in the past. You need to respect that. The big crucial thing is why can't you leave it in the past and why do you need him to talk about it? I think that your focus should be on the future, and improving your marriage.
> 
> ...


I don't agree, she loves him. She is growing up, that is hard.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

^ I agree with that


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

@EllaSuaveterre let me ask you a question.

When is it easiest to love your husband?

When it is hardest? 

Now think of both. 

What is the stronger love? 

I mean really think about it. What does it mean by stronger? 

Is it the emotion you feel more powerful or is it the work that you have to do when you don't feel the emotions as easily?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Ella I feel a sadness from you. I think that you are at the stage of your marriage where the honeymoon phase is over and the reality of marriage is setting in, and it's not how you thought it would be.
> You need to realize that you are ok, that things are ok. Life doesn't get easier, we just learn how to deal with things.
> It seems like you are so focused on this affair, and trying to get your husband to open up about it but my question to you is why? You know he loves you. And he is the type of person who likes to leaves things in the past. You need to respect that. The big crucial thing is why can't you leave it in the past and why do you need him to talk about it? I think that your focus should be on the future, and improving your marriage.
> 
> ...



My husband hasn't disappointed me. It's the world that has. It's the very nature of the human mind that has. Everyone told me when I was 16, 17, and 18, that the love would change, that it would be hard, that limerence doesn't last. I didn't believe them. I was outraged that they would even suggest it. Deep inside, I was afraid. What if they were right?

Well, they were. Most of the time, I can make my life- and my love- fit into the shape that I want it to be. I learned to accept that I'd have to plan the grand romantic gestures, and I'd have to learn to see all the ways my husband does show love, and not the ways he can't. I usually take great joy in planning dates, in making him heartfelt things, in seeing his face light up. I take great pride when I can bring home a small amount of money for him, or buy him a gift with my own earnings, or do something for him before he notices it needs doing and rushes in to do it, or give him a _really good_ massage and cover him in kisses. 

I usually take great comfort in his hugs when I'm sad, in his simple, "Don't be sad. Be happy instead." pep-talks. Usually, I take incredible joy in the fact that I don't have to lift a finger without his offering to help or do it for me. I take pride in my husband's many accomplishments, and luxuriate in the knowledge that everything I own and cherish was a gift from a man who would do literally anything for me. I honestly think my marriage is better than 99% of all other marriages. He doesn't do anything "bad". He has no vices. He never raises his voice and if he does he's always the first to apologise. Everything he does and says is done and said where I can see, erasing any doubts I have as to his fidelity. I have seldom had a request denied to me. He handles my mental illnesses as a rock handles the tide- motionlessly, calmly, steadfast but unyielding. I could go on and on and on about the things my dear husband does right, the ways our marriage is perfect. 

And I'm attached to him. His smile, all the love in his eyes, our inside jokes and our secret language and his smell and his taste and his body and his heart... all of it feels like a warm cozy blanket on a winter morning. It warms me, secures me, makes me feel happy and content.

But every once in a while, it all just kind of falls in on itself, because I honestly believed in all the fairy tales. And now mine is... cracked. Not broken, just cracked. No longer pristine. And I was sold perfection. And there is no perfection. No amount of staying, of teaching, of leaving, of dating, of sleeping around... no second or third or fourth or fifth marriage will EVER give me the whole entire package... because love without cracks doesn't exist. In fact it _can't_ exist, due to the biochemistry of the brain and the way our brains process the happiness chemicals. Love will never be perfect. Four years ago, I believed it would. The way of the world betrayed me.

So yes, I am sad. Sometimes, I am sad. Today, I am sad. Soon, I'm sure, I will be content again and able to let go of all the things that aren't perfect, and hold tighter to all the things that are, and I'll be happy and content again. But for now, I cannot help but be sad.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> @EllaSuaveterre let me ask you a question.
> 
> When is it easiest to love your husband?
> 
> ...


It is easiest to love him when he does everything right.

It is hardest to... well, no it's not.

It's never hard to love him. Even when I feel miserable and am questioning my life decisions, I still love him so, so very much. As much as I do on good days. That never changes. I know because on bad days, I sulk, and I brood, and I cry into my pillow. I cry rivers. I sob bitterly. No woman has ever shed a tear for a man she does not love.

I know that love is supposed to be more "powerful" when you have to really strain yourself to express it. It's not really. It's much weaker in fact, but it's supposed to be more _meaningful_ because it's a choice and not a feeling. I suppose I get it. It takes effort to support a woman financially, emotionally, and often physically. And the fact that he actively does so must mean _something_. But if I knew my husband had to _CHOOSE_ to love me, had to get out of bed every day and think to himself, "Here we go, old chap. Let's talk to her and try not to scream in utter exasperation," I'd be devastated. How terrible it must be when love is fully a choice, never an instinct.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But if I knew my husband had to _CHOOSE_ to love me, had to get out of bed every day and think to himself, "Here we go, old chap. Let's talk to her and try not to scream in utter exasperation," I'd be devastated. How terrible it must be when love is fully a choice, never an instinct.


I can only speak for myself. In the areas where we are different even the ones that cause problems or a hard for me, I know that these differences are not a character issue. This is just my wife's style. Some of those are why i married her. I knew some of the things she is on top of that I am not would be good for me and vice a versa. I actually admire those differences. Sometimes they are hard because they force me to go out of my comfort zone, but that also force me to grow as a person. I would hope she feels the same way.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My husband hasn't disappointed me. It's the world that has. It's the very nature of the human mind that has. Everyone told me when I was 16, 17, and 18, that the love would change, that it would be hard, that limerence doesn't last. I didn't believe them. I was outraged that they would even suggest it. Deep inside, I was afraid. What if they were right?
> 
> Well, they were. Most of the time, I can make my life- and my love- fit into the shape that I want it to be. I learned to accept that I'd have to plan the grand romantic gestures, and I'd have to learn to see all the ways my husband does show love, and not the ways he can't. I usually take great joy in planning dates, in making him heartfelt things, in seeing his face light up. I take great pride when I can bring home a small amount of money for him, or buy him a gift with my own earnings, or do something for him before he notices it needs doing and rushes in to do it, or give him a _really good_ massage and cover him in kisses.
> 
> ...


I suggest you think differently. In this sense love is not a vase but a muscle. Just like a person trying to build up muscle will intentionally lift more and more weight in order to microscopically tear the muscle so that it can grow back stronger. This is also how a good marriage and long term love works. You are building something. That is the Disney that is the romantic part of it. 

As someone who read your posts I think this one is one of the best things you ever posted. It was time for you to get over your magic thinking. Every adult has to. You will be fine. But in the same respect you are the person who is at a 3 course mean and has eaten the bread and is so sad there is no more bread left they they lose interest in the rest of the meal. You have the whole meal to eat. Long term love is SO much greater then short term love. 

Do you know I don't even need to talk to my wife about stuff. I know what she is going to say, what her opinion is. I know what her reaction will be. The only other person I am close to that way is my parents. I didn't have a choice in those relationships, and I wasn't the primary force behind them. In this case I choose to be close enough to someone in this world that I can read her mind. She has shaped my life enough that my primary decision making is affected just by her presence in my life. That to me is so much more profound then whether I we danced and they played our song. 

This is marriage. This is true love. True love is being so close to the person that it is natural for you to think of them as just a part of you. You are working very hard to get to that place with your husband. And he is trying as well. But you need to really start looking at this differently. Ella, that is the dream. That is what you should strive for. The 35 years later with possible kids and a lifetime experiences that only you two share. That is romance. 

_1 Corinthians 13:11

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me._


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My husband hasn't disappointed me. It's the world that has. It's the very nature of the human mind that has. Everyone told me when I was 16, 17, and 18, that the love would change, that it would be hard, that limerence doesn't last. I didn't believe them. I was outraged that they would even suggest it. Deep inside, I was afraid. What if they were right?
> 
> Well, they were. Most of the time, I can make my life- and my love- fit into the shape that I want it to be. I learned to accept that I'd have to plan the grand romantic gestures, and I'd have to learn to see all the ways my husband does show love, and not the ways he can't. I usually take great joy in planning dates, in making him heartfelt things, in seeing his face light up. I take great pride when I can bring home a small amount of money for him, or buy him a gift with my own earnings, or do something for him before he notices it needs doing and rushes in to do it, or give him a _really good_ massage and cover him in kisses.
> 
> ...




You say the world failed you but it didn't. You need to learn what real love is, not superficial fairy tale love. 

You and I are very similar in some areas but very different in others. I am a hopeless romantic as well. But your idea of love and romance couldn't be more different than mine. And I think you need to reevaluate what love really is vs what you think it is. Because the world didn't fail you, your mind failed you. Your false expectation of what love is, is what is preventing happiness. 

Love is not grand gestures. These are superficial, outward acts of kindness that literally anyone can do to you. 
I am incredibly pro marriage. I think marriage is incredibly romantic, but not in the way you define romance. So here is my take on marriage.... In the Bible, there is only one relationship that has a covenant with God, and that is husband and wife. Not kids and parents. But husband and wife. You choose one person to spend the rest of your life with... it's incredibly romantic. You choose someone to go through life with. And life is hard. You become a family. You create life together. Your grow and age together. You are together for the toughest times in life... like having kids, watching your parents age and decline and then die. I couldn't imagine doing this without a spouse. A partner. You are a team. You may be different and you may argue, but you are together in this crazy life. You get to know them so intimately, you probably know how they will respond to situations before they happen. And then when one eventually gets sick... it's like nothing in the world matters, the arguments, the affair that happened 40 years ago, it all goes out the window. And all you wish you had was more time, and you wish you spent the time you had together differently. Appreciating each other, not nick picking about stupid stuff. And when they die, you miss THEM, who they truly are, quirks and all. You don't miss who you wish they were, (we're constantly trying to change our spouses to what we want, but when they are gone, your going to miss the annoying things they do probably more than the good.) 

So I'm sorry to be sad, but that's the reality of marriage and life. The good stuff you look back on are not the superficial grand gestures, but the small kindness of day to day, especially when really bad things happen. The good stuff is the little stuff... like how he talks in his sleep, like how he pretends to hate our pet rabbit but he secretly sneaks her food when no one is watching (haha). It's the little things that make him him, and that only you know about. So yes, I am a hopeless romantic. But it's because I think sticking it out with each other day after day is what makes it romantic. That choosing to come home to me everyday for the rest of our life is romantic. For not giving up when things go bad. 

So don't waste time wishing things were different. Don't think the world failed you. You just need to realize the important and good stuff.


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Ok here's what I think. Ella I do believe you love your husband and know all he gives you. But it's not 100% on what you need or want. And it's not a slight on you just you are growing up more.

I feel you need and want the guy that showers you with emotional love. The telling you you are loved, the holding and hugging, the caressing and stroking of hair. You want the guy that will love you with all your faults, the guy that is devoted to you. Your H provides that. 

Problem is that is not fully satisfying for you. I think part of you wants the other type of guy at times. Instead of Prince Charming that whispers he loves you, holds you, you want the guy that shows it. Tells you by grabbing you and taking charge. 

But I don't think your husband is that guy. He's the caring guy. You want both. Why I think even though your H has forgiven your affair and is willing to move forward you pick at the wound. 

I think you do it so it lets you feel there is part of you that desires little of the non caring type. What you need to figure out can you live with the other? 

Right now you are making your husband take these tests that you keep changing the answers to.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I know I've not been on in a while, but I just want to announce that I am having a rather hard go of it lately, especially on the self-compassion aspect of things. It has been very difficult to eat and sleep on a regular basis this week, let alone engage in any therapy or self-help or self-care. I've lost 10 pounds in two weeks. If I don't start eating more my husband's not going to be pleased. I feel guilty because on bad days, the onus of keeping me alive usually falls to him. Not that I ask him to step in; he just does. I am incredibly lucky to have a man by my side as good and as caring and as responsible as he is. I don't know what I did to deserve him. I love him so much. 

I'm tried of the memories. More than tired. I think I've stopped eating because at least when I'm starving I can't think about anything else, bad memories included. I don't see my psychologist until the 17th. I'm going to talk to her then about seeing her more frequently but she doesn't seem to think it's a good idea for whatever reason. For the last six months or so she's insisted that every other week is the way to go.

If you know of any way to self-care when doing the opposite is the only way to numb your mind, or of any way to get out of a slump when your strongest inclination is to lay in bed staring at the ceiling for an eternity and a half, let me know.

Meanwhile, as it's after midnight, I suppose I'll take a sleeping pill and crash.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I know I've not been on in a while, but I just want to announce that I am having a rather hard go of it lately, especially on the self-compassion aspect of things. It has been very difficult to eat and sleep on a regular basis this week, let alone engage in any therapy or self-help or self-care. I've lost 10 pounds in two weeks. If I don't start eating more my husband's not going to be pleased. I feel guilty because on bad days, the onus of keeping me alive usually falls to him. Not that I ask him to step in; he just does. I am incredibly lucky to have a man by my side as good and as caring and as responsible as he is. I don't know what I did to deserve him. I love him so much.
> 
> I'm tried of the memories. More than tired. I think I've stopped eating because at least when I'm starving I can't think about anything else, bad memories included. I don't see my psychologist until the 17th. I'm going to talk to her then about seeing her more frequently but she doesn't seem to think it's a good idea for whatever reason. For the last six months or so she's insisted that every other week is the way to go.
> 
> ...


Ella, why are you torturing yourself? Why are you in so much pain? You have to let this go my friend. You are safe and your husband loves you. I think all of us here respect your earnest need to become a better you. But you are a good person with an innocent heart. You are so young, you have your whole life ahead of you. Isn't it time to let go of the past and now move into the future? Everything is going to be OK my friend. It really is.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Ella, why are you torturing yourself? Why are you in so much pain? You have to let this go my friend. You are safe and your husband loves you. I think all of us here respect your earnest need to become a better you. But you are a good person with an innocent heart. You are so young, you have your whole life ahead of you. Isn't it time to let go of the past and now move into the future? Everything is going to be OK my friend. It really is.


Thank you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I know I've not been on in a while, but I just want to announce that I am having a rather hard go of it lately, especially on the self-compassion aspect of things. It has been very difficult to eat and sleep on a regular basis this week, let alone engage in any therapy or self-help or self-care. I've lost 10 pounds in two weeks. If I don't start eating more my husband's not going to be pleased. I feel guilty because on bad days, the onus of keeping me alive usually falls to him. Not that I ask him to step in; he just does. I am incredibly lucky to have a man by my side as good and as caring and as responsible as he is. I don't know what I did to deserve him. I love him so much.
> 
> I'm tried of the memories. More than tired. I think I've stopped eating because at least when I'm starving I can't think about anything else, bad memories included. I don't see my psychologist until the 17th. I'm going to talk to her then about seeing her more frequently but she doesn't seem to think it's a good idea for whatever reason. For the last six months or so she's insisted that every other week is the way to go.
> 
> ...


Ella, did your husband ever express any remorse for not seeing the trouble you were heading into with that priest? Did he ever feel racked with guilt for not preventing that?

I think all the reading you have done about waywards is messing up your thinking. There is too much guilting of waywards on most of these infidelity forums, and not enough rational discussion of responsibility on both ends.

Also, have you thought about switching counselors? You are the customer, after all. If she is not meeting your needs, you could look for one who does.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, did your husband ever express any remorse for not seeing the trouble you were heading into with that priest? Did he ever feel racked with guilt for not preventing that?
> 
> I think all the reading you have done about waywards is messing up your thinking. There is too much guilting of waywards on most of these infidelity forums, and not enough rational discussion of responsibility on both ends.
> 
> Also, have you thought about switching counselors? You are the customer, after all. If she is not meeting your needs, you could look for one who does.


He did express that he was sorry it happened and that he would have been able to prevent it if only he'd known. I don't think he ever felt guilt. He shouldn't have, either. It wasn't his fault. I'm trying to believe it wasn't wholly mine.

I do agree with you that the reading I've done has skewed my mind a bit. And yes, I have considered switching counselors, but I'm not sure if there are any available that I didn't already see as a child or teenager. Maybe they'd be better for me since they know me, in that sense.

It's a much better day today. I woke up feeling less tearful, and texted my beloved good morning. He texted that he loved me very, very much. <3 I love how affectionate he is. I can't wait for him to get home. The only thing I want in the world right now is to curl up in his strong, loving arms with a mug of hot cocoa.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> He did express that he was sorry it happened and that he would have been able to prevent it if only he'd known. I don't think he ever felt guilt. He shouldn't have, either. It wasn't his fault. I'm trying to believe it wasn't wholly mine.
> 
> I do agree with you that the reading I've done has skewed my mind a bit. And yes, I have considered switching counselors, but I'm not sure if there are any available that I didn't already see as a child or teenager. Maybe they'd be better for me since they know me, in that sense.
> 
> It's a much better day today. I woke up feeling less tearful, and texted my beloved good morning. He texted that he loved me very, very much. <3 I love how affectionate he is. I can't wait for him to get home. The only thing I want in the world right now is to curl up in his strong, loving arms with a mug of hot cocoa.


I'm glad he meets your needs in many ways, Ella. I do wish he would work on being more open to deep communication, though. I think that could be very helpful.

Also glad you are recognizing the limits of some of the advice given to waywards and betrayeds. Infidelity is not necessarily a simple situation with a one size fits all solution.

As to guilt . . . I would feel guilty if I married a teenager ten years younger than myself, and he were emotionally manipulated and very nearly physically exploited by a woman over twice his age who said she was a priest of his religion. I would ask myself how in the world I missed all of that. Truly, I would be conscience-stricken.


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