# Is there a book that can help my WAW see clearly?



## eyesopen (Mar 16, 2012)

I have posted before on this forum.
My wife told me two months ago that she did not love me and wants a divorce (typical WAW, from what I can gather).
Granted, 100%, I have done many mistakes basically be neglecting her emotionally (no abuse, no arguments, nothing bad as such, you know the score).
She on the other hand (is 39) has undergone a personal transformation, mid life crises, and wants a new life for herself, to develop spiritually, achieve something, etc etc. 
So, she says that somewhere in the last two years she has stopped loving me and just now she really came to realize it and put it to words, and because of this there is zero willingness to reconcile, try, not even for sake of the kids, etc etc.
Now we are good friends, basically. Yes, there has been a lack of communication from both sides. Yes I made mistakes, etc etc. But I mean we also have a lot of good things.
Anyway, I am simply unable to break through her "But I don't love you any more" defence. It is the perfect armor.
So I was wondering, are there any books out there that talk about these situations maybe even give examples that I could give her (with the request/suggestion that she read) that might make her think and reconsider?
I know I know... you can't make someone love you. And for anything to work you have to have a willing partner. I just can't understand why she will not even try. 
OK sounding desperate now.. (which I am), so I will stop.
Any suggestions please?


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

Your situation is very close to mind. My wife won't try for me, the children, etc.

She doesn't have the love for me and "can't" get it back.

I don't think there are books on the WAW, exclusively. Google WAW Syndrome. Michele Weiner-Davis, who wrote Divorce Busters and Divorce Remedy has a good article about it. Those books detail what it is.

Her Divorce Remedy provisions, similar to the 180, are:

You can control your own actions/thoughts and emotions. And when you act a certain way, you can influence how your wife will respond. Her response causes you to react a certain way. Etc. Like a big circle.

So, while you can't make her love you, you can influence the environment by the way YOU act.


What's frustrating, is that I am so aware of every moment now, read, learn, open up etc., that I am willing to improve myself and my marriage (like I should have). Only, she is not giving me/us another chance to correct our wrongs.


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## Mtts (Apr 16, 2012)

Sorry to hear about both your stituations. 

I hope that both of your are able to find happiness even through this rough time. One thing you both can do and Jayb mentioned is work on yourselves. It's very satisfying to feel yourself improve. Honestly remove all the attention on saving the marriage/working as an "us." That part was gone quite some time ago, work on you. 

Make you the best you can. Take a class at a local community college(automtive repair, art, etc.). Go out and meet new people, find a group from work to do a tuesday night local bar/resturaunt night. Focus on your kids and supporting their extracircular activies. One of the fastest way to regain your others attention is by not trying for it. When they realize you've found your alright being, bettering and improving you and giving yourself the chance to be happy, they will want to be part of it. 

This isn't always true but in many cases the biggest mistakes we do is to try and improve a relationship that's failed. I told my own wife, I was sad our marriage failed, but it was an oppertunity to reinvision it. To recreate and try it a different way. I'm only 23 and fortunately don't have the heartache of putting kids through this but my STBXW is currently starting to try. She say me out having fun through mutual friends FB. She saw that I was enjoying myself and just trying to regain part of what I forgot in the hustle of married life. 

Becoming you and stopping the "us" will make you a much more attractive package. Your significant other will see, thats the man/woman I loved and might just start to realize that it wasn't always like this that they really had something there to want to make a life promise to you. 

Work on you and life falls into place. For better or worse don't try and convince, as all your doing is giving your significant other the power. Empower you by being happy and moving forward. I know it's hard but know you'll be better in the end,

Stay strong and keep in touch, I love reading and hearing about the good progress!


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## worrieddad (Nov 3, 2011)

There are lots of good books that could potentially do the job...a couple that spring to mind are "The 5 Love Languages" and "Love must be tough".

The big, giant problem however....is that the leaving spouse never wants to read books like that at the point they are at. They will just make them feel guilty. So as your reasoning is falling on deaf ears....so will the books and suggestions to read them.

The only thing you can really do, as is always said on here, time and time again....is to ultimately stop trying to work out the why someone other than yourself is thinking like they do (although DO check for evidence of an affair, if nothing else for your own peace of mind).

At the end of the day, to use the tired cliche....you can only work on yourself - and that is what you must do now.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

worrieddad said:


> There are lots of good books that could potentially do the job...a couple that spring to mind are "The 5 Love Languages" and "Love must be tough".
> 
> The big, giant problem however....is that the leaving spouse never wants to read books like that at the point they are at. They will just make them feel guilty. So as your reasoning is falling on deaf ears....so will the books and suggestions to read them.
> 
> ...


I was/am guilty of trying to work on us and ceding all of the power to her. Anything she did or didn't do caused me upset. Why? Because I had given power to someone over how I individually feel. 

I only have control of ME. My thoughts, actions, emotions. I get upset because I allow someone to make ME upset.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

When someone musters up the guts to tell you a deep, ugly, hurtful truth?

Believe them.

She doesn't want to work it out. And the more you insist on it? The LESS she will even want to consider.

She isn't going to read what you give her. She isn't going to consider what YOU want. If she says yes to counseling, it will be to bring you onboard with the notion of her leaving ... not to consider reconciling. She has to WANT those things ... and you can't make her want them.

To me, there is a difference between WAW and your run-of-the-mill, the 'grass is greener' elsewhere. And in my experience, almost always, at a point in time when a woman is telling you she's done, and she doesn't love you ... that is code for there is someone else already in the picture.

You don't have to believe that. Most don't, and in the end, it really doesn't matter.

You want a shot at recovery? Then make it crystal clear that her leaving will be ugly and painful. Cede nothing. Fight her every step of the way. This will make clear very quickly, how 'sold' on the idea of leaving she truly is. Odds are 70/30 she still leaves.

Or ...

Work on yourself, accept her choice and peacefully put your marriage to sleep.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

Deejo said:


> When someone musters up the guts to tell you a deep, ugly, hurtful truth?
> 
> Believe them.
> 
> ...


The bolded areas were true for me.

I escalated the bickering when I filed for D. fighting over every second of child scheduling. Cursing, hating each other. That got nowhere, fast.

The 2nd option is the road I'm on. It's just taking me a long time to walk it. 

I may be more over my stbx than I think, because when someone asked me if I would want her back right now, I added several conditions/requirements before I would accept. Afterall, there is an initial reconciliation, meaning both are committed at working together. However, immediately after, there is the hard work at addressing issues that caused the marriage to fail.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> And in my experience, almost always, at a point in time when a woman is telling you she's done, and she doesn't love you ... that is code for there is someone else already in the picture.


I have to respectfully disagree with this. I believe that many times (certainly not ALWAYS) there is NO ONE ELSE in the picture.

There is not a man I'm running to, or even looking for. I have my OWN issues to deal with first. There is the *HOPE* that one day (who knows when?), I MAY meet a man who will make me feel like the most important choice in his life. IF that happens, I want to be sure I am ready for a GREAT relationship by fixing my own sh*t FIRST.

It seems to be a common belief on these boards, by the person being left behind (both men AND women) that there MUST be someone else. He/she MUST be leaving me for someone newer, younger, better-looking, sexier, thinner, etc. But oftentimes there is not. Sometimes the 'leaver' is 'leaving' behind an older, unhappy life and looking for a new life...not a new 'lay.' (Although most of us wouldn't mind some of that eventually!)

As a 'leaver,' I'm not sure I can explain it to a 'being left;' but it's kind of like an immigrant leaving the old life for the promise of a better life in the new country. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But the dream of what COULD be is worth the risk of taking that chance.

Don't know if that helps explain it at all, but it's the best I can do.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with this. I believe that many times (certainly not ALWAYS) there is NO ONE ELSE in the picture.


"Almost always" may be better suited to "Usually", regardless, in my personal experience, and on these boards, I would say that 80% of the time that a spouse makes it clear, relatively out of the blue ... that they no longer love you, and want out ... right now ... is because they are indeed looking forward to something new, with a new partner. They just want to hide that fact to make the leaving more palatable.

I don't doubt that in your circumstances, or others that one partner just hits threshold and needs to be done.



> There is not a man I'm running to, or even looking for. I have my OWN issues to deal with first. There is the *HOPE* that one day (who knows when?), I MAY meet a man who will make me feel like the most important choice in his life. IF that happens, I want to be sure I am ready for a GREAT relationship by fixing my own sh*t FIRST.


Then you're doing the right thing. Many folks prefer to avoid acknowledging, or dealing with their sh!t at all. That's what makes starting a relationship prematurely such a common practice.



> It seems to be a common belief on these boards, by the person being left behind (both men AND women) that there MUST be someone else. He/she MUST be leaving me for someone newer, younger, better-looking, sexier, thinner, etc. But oftentimes there is not. Sometimes the 'leaver' is 'leaving' behind an older, unhappy life and looking for a new life...not a new 'lay.' (Although most of us wouldn't mind some of that eventually!)


Indeed it is ... because here? That is the more prevalent circumstance than yours. But ... what most also acknowledge is that it is seldom for someone younger, better looking, sexier, or more successful, which is interesting in it's own right.



> As a 'leaver,' I'm not sure I can explain it to a 'being left;' but it's kind of like an immigrant leaving the old life for the promise of a better life in the new country. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But the dream of what COULD be is worth the risk of taking that chance.
> 
> Don't know if that helps explain it at all, but it's the best I can do.


It think it's great that you chimed in. And I certainly believe you. I often equate that the pain of staying in the relationship has to outweigh the pain associated with leaving ... if that is the point that you got to in your marriage, then I applaud you for your choice ... and how you conducted yourself.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I can't imagine how difficult it is to be left with many unanswered questions!

I have had other posters inquire of me WHY their spouse left; as though there is ONE ANSWER that is going to be correct. I can posit some possible scenarios, but that's it. I tell them they will probably never know WHY (unless leaving spouse can sit down and explain calmly, but I doubt this happens often...too much raw emotion on both sides, unless they've both checked-out.)

Sorry I can't help eyesopen better.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Eyesopen,

As long as you are focused on her and what she's doing or not doing, you're screwed.

It's really that simple.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Yes. It really is.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I have to respectfully disagree with this. I believe that many times (certainly not ALWAYS) there is NO ONE ELSE in the picture.
> 
> There is not a man I'm running to, or even looking for. I have my OWN issues to deal with first. There is the *HOPE* that one day (who knows when?), *I MAY meet a man who will make me feel like the most important choice in his life. *IF that happens, I want to be sure I am ready for a GREAT relationship by fixing my own sh*t FIRST.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the opposing view. I think this may be why my wife is leaving. And, it sucks. Because, I'm willing to crawl on glass to change personally as well as devote myself to improving the marriage (addressing past issues, etc.). However, for whatever reasons, I am not being given a chance. She holds no hope, the misery lasted too long. She "tried." What if? I'm a great father and person, but, she's just not in love with me. Etc.

I could better understand it, if I were resistant. However, I am willing to do all those things needed to save a relationship. But to hear the no, for me, for our 12 year marriage, for our children, just so that she can enjoy her independence, is something that does not compute. I don't understand.

Yes, on a base level, I get it. She chose to stop loving me and chooses not to at this time. So, time for me to move on to love myself and maybe find someone who will love me.

I'm not there yet.


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## gear1903 (Apr 2, 2012)

JayB, i've seen a lot of your posts and i think we are in very similar situations. i can't claim to have a single answer to the question of 'why is she leaving and not willing to give me a chance', but based on long talks i've had with my stbxw, it boils down to a couple things:

- she feels i had many years to change, and i did not. now that divorce is on the table, she sees me saying i would change and that i would do anything to improve my part in the marriage and it upsets her because she doesn't understand why the threat of divorce is what finally gets me to shape up and she has trouble trusting that i can change when she's had so many years of 'evidence' to the contrary.

- she has been feeling hurt, and now numbness, for months, maybe years. because of this, it upsets her that i think just by changing now that i can expect her to accept me in a matter of weeks. it took years to get this point. it could take years to get back to where it once was, and to expect her to give me a chance in less than 2 months is, in her mind, unfair.

- perhaps most importantly, we were good friends before we got married. neither of us want to be bitter enemies if we split up. a major reason she doesn't want to give me a chance right now is because she fears that if i do all these things to change, it might make things better, but there is no guarantee it will be enough in her mind. it's not science. it's emotion. there is no way to say 'if i change 3 out of 4 things, she will fall back in love'. that's not how emotions work. so if i do change in a lot of ways but she still says it's over, she is afraid i will become so resentful that we will never speak again after we split. there is also that feeling of guilt that she may have about either insisting on splitting up even after she's seen i've changed in many ways or just settling by staying in the marriage because she feels bad that i tried so hard.

all these are reasons why the wife may not be willing to give a chance at this time.

she knows where i stand, and that i want to work it out. since she knows, i've stopped pressuring/begging/pleading. i'm working on myself and getting to enjoy being who i am, with small CONSISTENT changes that she may or may not notice over time. if she likes what she sees, she may reach out to see if we can work it out. if not, well, i'll be happier with who i am in any case.

keep strong man.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

gear1903 said:


> JayB, i've seen a lot of your posts and i think we are in very similar situations. i can't claim to have a single answer to the question of 'why is she leaving and not willing to give me a chance', but based on long talks i've had with my stbxw, it boils down to a couple things:
> 
> - she feels i had many years to change, and i did not. now that divorce is on the table, she sees me saying i would change and that i would do anything to improve my part in the marriage and it upsets her because she doesn't understand why the threat of divorce is what finally gets me to shape up and she has trouble trusting that i can change when she's had so many years of 'evidence' to the contrary.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your insight. I can see my wife giving the same reasons. And coupled with how she has changed over the years. 

You're right, it's emotions, not science. And, as much as I value commitment at high costs (since there were no typical marital transgressions), apparently, she overcame that resistance. 

I've made changes. Lost 25 pounds, still exercising, positive around her, attentive, etc. Maybe over time, she'll appreciate that. Probably not. I have to be ok with either. But, this whole experience places extreme doubts I have in people's integrity, vows, love. If people change and love dies, then what's the point? Just venting. I can't see myself entrusting my life to anyone ever again. The gamble isn't worth it. 

It'll be a constant reminder since we have children and will be interacting around them for a long, long time. 

From what I assume, my wife is so bogged down with guilt and regret, that she can't see how I could/would forgive her, or be so willing to own up to my own shortcomings in the marriage. At this time, she would rather live miserably by herself than to admit she made a mistake and come back to the marriage. Too hurt, too stubborn. She told me she's afraid of what would happen in a year or 2 from now if we reverted back to those times. We'd be back in the same place. So, I asked for more time. Stay separated, but withdraw the divorce. But, since we got as far as we got and spent so much money, she just wants to be done. In essence, I provided her the greatest favor by filing for D because if I hadn't, she may still not have.

It's hard to be told this and to just accept it. And, that's the pressure I feel either from her or myself, or others. The standard, "it's over, move on, do what will make you happy, you deserve better" mentality is not something I can take at this time. My emotions, life are still entangled with hers. It's very difficult for me to untangle.

She told me she tried. But, I'm at a different place now than I was then, so that "trying" rings hollow. Because I definitely know how I would try and understand trying right now.

We're at different places in this long journey.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

No, there are no books or instructional DVDs to my knowledge that will force a WAW to give you a second chance as her husband. And I've read just about every book on manipulation for both business and dating. You can't play any Jedi mind tricks here and any attempts to make her feel guilty may get you a few tears, but she won't admire you for being the one that upset her. You have to trust me on this one! 

If anything this situation borders closer to terrorist negotiations. She's already dropped the bomb on you, made her demands, and told you what's going to happen if you don't do what she wants next. She holds all the power and you're at her feet begging for second chances. If anything this attitude is making her feel a little guilty but she's just going to get meaner and more viscious to get you out of her life right now. Watch how she treats you when you do something nice and unexpected for her. 

You want all of this to stop? You want her back as a friend first and maybe a wife later on? Just agree with whatever BS she says that doesn't affect you.... and give her the divorce she thinks she wants. She's going to tell you a lot of lies to hurt your feelings so she doesn't have to take full responsibility of QUITTING this marriage. Be prepaired to hear promises thrown back in your face and fights from the past used as ammunition. Just control you emotions and know that she's only talking out of hurt. Let her have the last word during these arguments and walk away before things get worse..... hint: gong dark works better when you completely dissapear after your spouse says something nasty and uncalled for. And the greener pastures she's looking forwards to will dissipoint her in the future when you're out of the picture and she still holds fond memories of you at times. Do you want her to remember you as a whiny b*tch that fought her to the end and completely disrespected her decision of the strong man with the newsense of maturity that let her go but will still respond to her calls from time to time.

The only thing that's going to impress her and make her think twice about you is if you agreed with her and gave up. Seriously, give up to get rid of that angry b*tch that screams "I DON't LOVE YOU ANYMORE" and get back in touch with the peaceful girl you used to share long conversations with. In order for that to work without you boling over do to something stupid and blowing your promise you're going to have to work hard to take her off her pedestal and see that she wasn't perfect, and how you don't deserve to be treated like this anymore. And her kids deserve a mommy that is willing to try so they don't wind up f*cked up criminals and strippers.... do to this. I'm not asking you to grow hate in your heart for her but at least think twice about wanting to hug her when you see her again.

It's hard to explain but the "love" as you know it is only a final qualification after you have met a list of certain criteria she holds dear. All she's telling you in "ILYBINILWY" is that she cares about you but not enough to spend the rest of her life with you. These are also dangerous words that could indicate an affair but not always. So you've screwed up somewhere and have to start back where you left off..... Right away you lack CONFIDENCE because those "D-words" can completely destroy you for a good while, and without confidence you can't tell her so "back off" when she's trying to hurt you. And really, you have all the power in you to tell her "Stop It" when she's in your face and trying to tear you down..... you can command respect just as easily as she can. 

The second thing you've lost long ago while you became so confident in your marriage. Remember when you met her you had this attitude where you told her "I like you, but I don't need you to be happy". What happened to that attitude? You know that you'll see her again no matter what do to the kids, divorce paperwork, and that strange phenomena where divorced people keep running into each other or making excuses to talk years after the courts set you both free. What makes your wife so special that you need her in your life or you can not be happy. (And before you judge I was like this too. I nearly commited suicide over my W divorcing me but I toughened up)

If you can get to the point where you don't care if she stays or goes.... nothing she can say or do will hurt you the very least bit. And by not calling her all the time to hear her voice or crying to her.... basically refusing to play her game and let her know how hurt you are.... she will start to take interest in what's gotten into you to makes you indipendent again. It's at that point you have the chance to attract her back over the next two to four years. I say 2-4yrs realistically because you'll both be emotional wrecks for about a year after the D is final and the next year you'll be working at getting yourself back on track. And honestly, don't fret is she is having an affair because it won't last..... unless the guy is wonderful enough to counsel her and her children through this trauma and wait to make any full time commitments until she's better, it won't work. The only thing you have to worry about here is not wanting her when she's tossing you scraps of affection or trying to make you jealous.

Ok I retire, I can't string two thoughts together to save my life. I'll return her later after a few Zzzz's.


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## worrieddad (Nov 3, 2011)

Good post there NSweet - hit a lot of good points with that one.

Jayb and gear1903 - I'm basically in the same boat as you guys. The difference is that I'm just a step further on. These situations always read the same way....its always a collection of tales which basically equates to something like "She's been "trying" for years, She's been making all the effort, etc etc etc". Invariably, these tales of "misery" always seem to revolve around the partner who is "miserable" dropping hints etc to try and make the partner who is about to be dumped change in some way, to fit into their perfect version of life.

I've come to realize that, in situations such, it is just a total crock of 5hit. I _never_ asked her to change - while I wasn't happy with some aspects of the marriage, I was a committed and loyal husband. From my POV, I'd made plenty of compromises to try to make her happy - ironically however, it is this losing of oneself brought on by their attempts to "change" you that leads to their loss of respect for you - and to add insult to injury, then they just go ahead and quit, without giving it a good honest second chance. I blame our needy, demanding and quite frankly pathetic western societies to be honest - compared with other parts of the world, we really have it all here, yet its never enough for some people.

Never again will I commit emotionally to the level I did. To get myself through this, I have basically taken a leaf out of her book - if she can't be bothered to try, then I certainly can't. Quite honestly, the last month or so of this ordeal I've had an absolute whale of a time; I've done some things I never could have while trapped in that marriage. BUT - that is only because I've been making the best of the hand that was dealt me. I would have NEVER bailed on my marriage, I'd have never killed off our family unit, because I was totally and utterly committed.

I do feel sad that she can't see the benefit of staying together - the benefits of the family unit to stick through all times thick and thin. But again, our society these days has no respect for that - its all about ME. I still get on with my stbx - but talk about a losing of respect.....I'll now always view her as a quitter. Whatever evil things I did in the marriage (like not wipe down the countertops for the millionth time, fold the clothes correctly or empty the dishwasher frequently enough), I never quit - that's all on her.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

gear1903:

I am so glad that you have heard and understood your wife's POV. Your perceptions are right on the money. This is a relationship that will be helpful/supportive to you both in the future (and if there are any children, will lead to loving, cooperative, supportive co-parenting.)


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

@Worrieddad, you touched on something there with the W's need for changes and misery, but not making any changes herself. We do change ourselves when that happens..... we become more vulnerable to her threats of leaving and more submissive to her attitude. After we've spent so long developing the healthy ballance of push/pull in dating it just doesn't make sense for so many husbands to give into nagging, give her everything she wants, and actually care about being cut off for sex. 

All relationships encourage dependency...... one thought I've been paying with is that during the 'honeymoon phase' a lot of boundaries are allowed to be overstepped to please the other person. For ex. you'll call each other annoying pet names and have more sex than you do close conversations.... but when one person reaches the 'power control phase' and starts setting boundaries all of a sudden they start calling all the shots from the get go. 

And if they feel uncomfortable with all the affection and requests for qualificatiers like saying "I love you" every ten minutes then they tell the ther person the relationship is moving too fast and call the shots saying "We need a break". The couple will ultimtely take turns with control of the relationship as it grows older, but as I see it is with women that they have techniques to manipulate power in their control learned from as early as childhood. Not to offend women but you know you still use "that face". Yeah, don't lie! 

The reason they say they stop loving us even though at those times they claim it happened they are very loving and joyful to be RECEIVING is that we are not a challenge anymore. If you're wife asked you for a foot rub after work and you said you were too tired to do it immediately, she would probably start nagging about how you never help her out and that she does everything for you until she either hits a nerve and manipulates you into doing it out of guilt or tells you she changed her mind and doesn't want to ever be touched by you again, "I can do it myself!". Either way you have lost your callenging attitude by falling over yourself to please her when she wouldn't even try to negotiate with you. 

The same goes for sex... Do you think for one minute the OM sleeping with a cheating wife would settle for the boring missionary possition she gives her H? NO! He challenges her and asserts himself constanly just testing her to see what he can get away with ALL THE TIME. Let that same woman come home to her vulnerable H.... He fawns all over her looking to please her and yet she walks all over him because he's lost his masculinity she fell in love with. The only tim she's going to see that man again is when he's getting @$$ from another woman and won't even give her the time of day because she doesn't deserve it.

Take for example the cute redhead I was just talking to for a while before I met my wife and married her. We had phone sex a few times and when I finally got the chance to see her she pushed my away and kissed my friend. A few weeks later she confessed that she slept with some guy at a party, so I let her go relieved to be rid of her. Not a big let down to me bu I never wanted to see her again after that... but I wasn't going to be cruel. Three weeks after we broke up which I was glad we did, I gave her a birthday card with $50 for her little daughter. After that I did my own thing and I ignored her every chance I got when I was talking to my W. I let her know the day of when I got married and she stalked me for nearly two years constantly sending me fully clothes pics and "hey" mesages. I finally told her off before my wife found out and made it an issue. I think I tried to tell her about it but she didn't see it as big of a problem as I knew it was. Finally one day it stoped for nearly four months until one day I just started thinking about her like crazy. Now I had no reason to, didn't like her and didn't ever want to see her again but all of a sudden that week I got a text from her wanting to meet. I was like WTF?! I with my wife an told her I guess we could do lunch the next weekend but only as friends. She just got creepier after that! Turns out she had just married her baby's father and he went to Iraq with the Army. She insisted on seeing me so bad all these red flags went up in my head and I shot her down.....
And all because I ended things on good terms with this ex and showed her I didn't need her anymore and nothing she could do would charm me back. Just goes to show the power of not needing.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> No, there are no books or instructional DVDs to my knowledge that will force a WAW to give you a second chance as her husband. And I've read just about every book on manipulation for both business and dating. You can't play any Jedi mind tricks here and any attempts to make her feel guilty may get you a few tears, but she won't admire you for being the one that upset her. You have to trust me on this one!
> 
> If anything this situation borders closer to terrorist negotiations. She's already dropped the bomb on you, made her demands, and told you what's going to happen if you don't do what she wants next. She holds all the power and you're at her feet begging for second chances. If anything this attitude is making her feel a little guilty but she's just going to get meaner and more viscious to get you out of her life right now. Watch how she treats you when you do something nice and unexpected for her.
> 
> ...



Man, I did some serious head nodding...

Thanks for this.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

worrieddad said:


> Good post there NSweet - hit a lot of good points with that one.
> 
> Jayb and gear1903 - I'm basically in the same boat as you guys. The difference is that I'm just a step further on. These situations always read the same way....its always a collection of tales which basically equates to something like "She's been "trying" for years, She's been making all the effort, etc etc etc". Invariably, these tales of "misery" always seem to revolve around the partner who is "miserable" dropping hints etc to try and make the partner who is about to be dumped change in some way, to fit into their perfect version of life.
> 
> ...


Part of the bitter pill I have to swallow. She quit on our children. In order to be "happy." And, I'm sure her "friends" encourage her to be "happy." Although, all of her friends/our mutual friends, her "advisors" remain married, albeit some more miserable than others!!!

I own every inch of my failures in the marriage. Every one, and be willing to improve or correct them. Because I so value the institution of marriage and family. Her? Not so much.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> @Worrieddad, you touched on something there with the W's need for changes and misery, but not making any changes herself. We do change ourselves when that happens..... we become more vulnerable to her threats of leaving and more submissive to her attitude. After we've spent so long developing the healthy ballance of push/pull in dating it just doesn't make sense for so many husbands to give into nagging, give her everything she wants, and actually care about being cut off for sex.
> 
> All relationships encourage dependency...... one thought I've been paying with is that during the 'honeymoon phase' a lot of boundaries are allowed to be overstepped to please the other person. For ex. you'll call each other annoying pet names and have more sex than you do close conversations.... but when one person reaches the 'power control phase' and starts setting boundaries all of a sudden they start calling all the shots from the get go.
> 
> ...


Again, thanks. You hit some nerves with me. I think we both acted and responded to one another. I didn't catch her vibe, I responded. She took my response and reacted. I responded to her reaction. On and on. circle after circle. Most of it unconsciously. Until then...........choices were made. Decisions were made. Then, consequences, fallout.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Simply put, both of our wives quit what would have been a woderful marriage with a little work and counseling. They both gave up and ran away from their responsibilities. Mine left behind a huge family and little sister that needed her most to be with a complete loser that couldn't even compare to me and won't do neary half the nice things I did for her. And after years together in a military marriage where I did more than my share to keep her hppy. Nothing can be that much better that justifies a wife having to sit there night after night and lie to a young one about what a bad man you were or that she doesn't need you and doesn't want to keep talking about you. That child is going to grow up with so many relationship problems all because a childish mother couldn't sit there and say "let's make a few compromises"... "Maybe my nagging and criticizing I learned from my mother isn't helping this marriage as I once thought".

The best thing to do now is to show yourself you can do better than this and give her the walking papers she asked for along with every reminder of your marriage. I tend to believe now that the WAW should be given every pic of you two, every love note, card, and sentimental gift back to show that you're not reserving a place for her should she change her mind and that you have the power to completely reject her should she want to return when her greener pastures do not pan out. This also will burn her just as much a the papers did you by reminding her of how much she's given up on. And if you're anything like me you did do a lot more for her at times than your W ever did for you.

I don't care what kind of sissy advice they have out there where you have to agree with her in the form of a letter an thank her for some BS after she's divorced you, hoping maybe she'll want to reach out to you again. You're not going to soften her heart and get her to respect you like she once did because you're still sucking up to her. The only way that's going to work is by showing her "I completely accept this divorce..... here's your things to prove it!".... just like with a break up. And you letting her no there's no hard feelings and I thank you for all your time but this company is going to replace you and not even try to remember you. Maybe with an affirmative action minority who will work harder at this relationship and cook with more spices than Mr. Lawry's and Mrs. Dash. 

Believe it or not you will run into your exes everywhere you go, but it's not always the same person. While ex husbands and wives do run into eachother every once in a long while and you have a better chance of running into her again do to the children.... People can and do change, yadda yadda. But what I mean in dopplegangers.... I met an three different girls in three different cities who where exactly the same as an ex. And it was after meeting those girls that I realized I couldn't hold a grudge because even if they looked like her they didn't deserve the cold shoulder. The same goes for your W.... if she fell off a ladder and forgot everyting about the D, should you still treat her harshly? I submit to you the act of punishing the bad behavior and rewarding the good. Ignore your W when she plays games or just calls to temp you into chasing her by ignoring her and reward her when she shows you that glimmer of the woman you married.


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## gear1903 (Apr 2, 2012)

nsweet, jayb,

i'm beginning to go down the slippery slope of resentment. i listed the reasons why i understand that she doesn't want to give me a chance to change, but every day that goes by without resolution makes me angrier and we can't move on anything while she is out of the country for a month.

jayb, like you mentioned, she did go through similar pain, but at least i was with her while she coped slowly over several years, so now she's able to get along 'fine' without me. meanwhile, we're trying to cope by ourselves without support and it's all compressed in a matter of weeks/months! 

and like someone else said on another thread (synthetic, i think), the WAW is putting aside a known, certain thing (and an improved thing, as the 'left-over' spouse will certainly become a better person after this trauma) for a pie-in-the-sky ideal which will most likely come crashing down after a few months. i wish i could just fastforward several years after she's come to that realization...

the days are getting harder...i thought i was past the worst part.


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## worrieddad (Nov 3, 2011)

gear1903 said:


> and like someone else said on another thread (synthetic, i think), the WAW is putting aside a known, certain thing for a pie-in-the-sky ideal which will most likely come crashing down after a few months.


I have to say, this still galls me too. It only gets worse when you think that sooner or later, someone else will get introduced into your kids lives as well.

The whole "Right to be Happy" thing sure comes with huge costs. I can understand it when there are truly serious problems in the relationship and real, serious unhappiness as a result (abuse, infidelity, utter laziness etc), but all too often these days, the notion of what "Happy" is is totally skewed. 

It seems this pursuit of "Happiness" - which as we often hear about and as you have said here - is often relatively short lived, featuring such things as new cars, houses, new lover, "excitement" and so on. Once these short term fixes are done with....then the cycle begins again.

Yet in the wake of this individual selfish pursuit is left a broken family, a seriously emotionally hurt spouse who never asked for their world to be blown apart yet had no choice, and uncertain effects on the kids.

As I've mentioned, I'm doing really well with the whole situation that I had no choice about. However at times, the resentment is only just a hairs breadth away.


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## gear1903 (Apr 2, 2012)

worrieddad, glad to see that you are doing well. i hope to get to that point some day, though i understand the resentment will always be lurking underneath, at least for the foreseeable future. 

the notion of happiness is so different for so many people, and has certainly been skewed by popular media/culture. i just don't know how my stbxw can understand that unless she goes out there and finds out for herself. i just feel like at this point, she will always wonder and even if we R for a while, she may jump at the next chance or moment she feels unhappy. so i'm trying to let go.


i also fear something that jayb mentioned, which is an inability to truly open up in the future after being burned so badly. i don't know if i'll ever trust anyone again, and that kills me.


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## Jayb (Mar 6, 2012)

worrieddad said:


> I have to say, this still galls me too. It only gets worse when you think that sooner or later, someone else will get introduced into your kids lives as well.
> 
> The whole "Right to be Happy" thing sure comes with huge costs. I can understand it when there are truly serious problems in the relationship and real, serious unhappiness as a result (abuse, infidelity, utter laziness etc), but all too often these days, the notion of what "Happy" is is totally skewed.
> 
> ...


Pretty much exactly what I am thinking. Thing is, I'm a product of divorce and tried to warn my wife about the consequences on our children. 

I can't imagine another man in my children's lives. Hopefully, that won't occur, but if it does, way on down the road. Interesting, that some other guy may get 50% timesharing, along with my 50%, if he happens to move in with my wife. That fact alone makes me furious. Of course, my wife throws it back onto me, using the same example. 

Most likely, my wife will trade 1 set of issues (me) with another (new man's children, ex-wife, etc.).


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