# Emotional Affairs are just as bad.



## Indy (Dec 6, 2014)

Hi. First post-I'm so glad I found this place.

My wife and I have been married for 18 years. She was married before and admitted cheating on her husband with two different men while he was away at sea; she was a Navy wife. When we were dating, she admitted this and expressed regret. She began to attend church with me and had a spiritual experience, saying that she was sorry of the life she once led. We were engaged for about a year and then we married. Yeah, I know...I knew all of these things going in but I truly believed that she had changed. She is the only woman I've been with and I'll admit to being naive. 

Things seemed to be going fine. We moved to another state, got good jobs etc. and started our life together. Then we started with Classmates and eventually got onto Facebook. Then things started to change. 

About five years ago, she left open her chat box without logging off of Facebook. She found one of her old lovers. They were talking dirty and she even sent a pic of herself to him (sent one to me also) of her in a sexy outfit....no lingerie but a school-girl type outfit. I confronted her that evening. She began to cry and make excuses about how I was wrapped up with work and hard to approach and how he paid attention to her....He's married, too. I told her that if she loves him that she's free to go break up his marriage and be with him but our child stays with me. So she ended up deleting her FB page for a while and then reactivated it later. 

About two months ago, I found that another old lover (the other lover) and her had been talking on the phone and chatting. In her defense, it seemed innocent but he was calling her sexy etc. I found these texts and called him on the phone. It was funny to see how nervous he got but I told him to leave her alone. She got angry with me, saying that they were just old friends and if I knew him I'd know that he is just that way with everyone-saying what he wants. Then she blasted me for being hard to get along with and being not trusting enough of her and that I was holding that previous chat issue (from five years ago) against her-trying to make me feel like the bad guy. Our argument cooled down and she texted him back saying that he can't chat sexy with her anymore or they will break contact. 

This whole thing takes away my attraction to her. I still love her but I don't trust her anymore, making me wonder if I'm still IN love with her. I don't feel like I deserve any of this as I've been nothing but faithful to her and tried to make her as happy as possible. 

Sorry for the long post but it's a detailed story. 
Any advice on how to handle this?:scratchhead:


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Hi Indy 

Myself I would at this stage insist that boundaries need to be set that you both agree on as a marriage is about growing together as we change through life, understanding of each others wants and needs have to be addressed so that BOTH are comfortable with the actions of their partners
If both talk through any concerns on any topic so that BOTH understand the appropriate action there should be no disagreement or more importantly resentment


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

As a general rule, it's just not a good idea to maintain any sort of contact w/ a former lover (unless you just have to because of kids, etc). Some people have no trouble w/ it, but many do. Considering your wife's history in this regard, I'd say that this probably should be a hard line in the sand for you. 

So my advise for you would be two-fold...

1) Communicate ^this^ to her; tell her that maintaining contact w/ anyone w/ whom she's previously had _any_ sort of romantic relationship -- whether adulterous or not -- constitutes a dealbreaker for you, and will result in divorce. (And, obviously, if she and her first husband have any children together, he'd be an exception to this rule.)

Be prepared for her to break out a few bullsh*t "controlling" comments when you hit her w/ this. When she does this, here is the correct response...

"That's bullsh*t, and you damn well know it. I can't 'control' you, and that's fine, because I wouldn't want to even if I could. The only one of us that has any 'control' over your words and deeds is YOU. So, I'm telling you now -- if you can't bring yourself to refrain from being in contact w/ former lovers, then I'm going to 'control' the only one of us over whom I likewise have any sort of 'control', and I'm going to file for divorce. Period."

2) Gird your loins and pucker up.

Just curious... are either of these guys someone w/ whom she cheated while in a previous relationship? If so, her talking w/ them is all the more inappropriate.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Indy said:


> She was married before and admitted cheating on her husband with two different men while he was away at sea; she was a Navy wife.


I'm a Navy brat and joined the Air Force when I grew up. I'm sorry to say that two men is most likely an understatement. Remember the rule of 3, and that's being conservative. The wives do did cheat when their husbands were deployed, did so on a regular basis. They would be at the enlisted or officers club hooking up with all kinds of guys. Only 2 guys? I don't think so, once she crossed the line, it gets easier and easier to cross it each time. Especially when she had all these toxic friends doing the same thing. 



Indy said:


> When we were dating, she admitted this and expressed regret.


If she was truly regrettful, then why this?



Indy said:


> About five years ago, she left open her chat box without logging off of Facebook. She found one of her old lovers. They were talking dirty and she even sent a pic of herself to him (sent one to me also) of her in a sexy outfit....no lingerie but a school-girl type outfit. I confronted her that evening. She began to cry and make excuses about how I was wrapped up with work and hard to approach and how he paid attention to her....He's married, too. I told her that if she loves him that she's free to go break up his marriage and be with him but our child stays with me. So she ended up deleting her FB page for a while and then reactivated it later.


There is never any excuses for an affair, she was just trying to justify to herself. Been there, done that. My fWW started when she got on facebook and reconnected with an old boyfriend. Then she claimed we had grown apart? WTF? That was the made up reason she used to justify it to herself, which is was your WW did.



Indy said:


> About two months ago, I found that another old lover (the other lover) and her had been talking on the phone and chatting. In her defense, it seemed innocent but he was calling her sexy etc. I found these texts and called him on the phone. It was funny to see how nervous he got but I told him to leave her alone. She got angry with me, saying that they were just old friends and if I knew him I'd know that he is just that way with everyone-saying what he wants. Then she blasted me for being hard to get along with and being not trusting enough of her and that I was holding that previous chat issue (from five years ago) against her-trying to make me feel like the bad guy. Our argument cooled down and she texted him back saying that he can't chat sexy with her anymore or they will break contact.


Don't fall for this. You have EVERY right to be upset and she has absolutely NO RIGHT to be angry with you, none at all. Give her past, and the EA she had previously, you have every right to be upset with what she's doing.

To top it off, she's not remorseful at all, not one single bit. What she's doing is called BLAMESHIFTING. Trying to shift the blame to you for her cheating. 

Either she goes NO CONTACT (NC) with this OM, or you end the marriage, simple as that. No sexy chat, no nothing anymore. Completely NC. And if she violates that, then you should divorce this serial cheater. 

Frankly, I'm surprised you're even tolerating this second round of cheating. My fWW had our 25th anniversary this July, and I will not EVER tolerate a second EA. I don't give a sh!t if we are financially ruined, the house gets foreclosed, we go into bankruptcy, etc. If she EVER cheats again, its automatically over. 

And it seems this second affair is even deeper than the first one since she's actually blameshifting this time and not even pretending to be remorseful. Look at this table and read the links in my signature. Where does she stand?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

If you don't put a stop to this now, it could quickly end up like this:



F-102 said:


> It may have gone something like this:
> 
> They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"
> 
> ...


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Indy said:


> She was married before and admitted cheating on her husband with two different men while he was away at sea; she was a Navy wife. When we were dating, she admitted this and expressed regret. *She began to attend church with me and had a spiritual experience, saying that she was sorry of the life she once led.*


There are many men in the world. If she’s so sorry why did she pick those two men. Not only has she had sex with them but they had no problem having sex with a married woman. 

Now she paints a picture of them being nice guys that are just old friends. If they were random guys on the internet or old friends that she never dated, she might have a point. What she did was bad but not that bad. With these guys it was poison.

If I was ashamed of something I had done in my life I would avoid people that saw me do it must less than people that helped me do it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Graywolf2 said:


> There are many men in the world. If she’s so sorry why did she pick those two men. Not only has she had sex with them but they had no problem having sex with a married woman.
> 
> Now she paints a picture of them being nice guys that are just old friends. If they were random guys on the internet or old friends that she never dated, she might have a point. What she did was bad but not that bad. With these guys it was poison.
> 
> If I was ashamed of something I had done in my life I would avoid people that saw me do it must less than people that helped me do it.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Well said!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

yeah. Innocent. 

Ummmm... No.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Indy said:


> Any advice on how to handle this?:scratchhead:


Hi Indy, let me be the ghost of infidelity future. Find my thread and read the first couple of posts then skip toward the end.........

I won't ruin the surprise but your actions and inaction's not withstanding will produce the same results.

Once you do this, no more redundant posts, no more denial, no more defending her past good quality's, no more doormating. It starts today, and it starts with you. If this thread makes it to page 5 it will be too late.

Prepare for a battle sir, your future will depend on it.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Is she contacting any other men? If not, contacting those two guys is not random. She’s reminiscing about the fun she had cheating on her first husband. Do those guys live close to you?


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

LM - "To top it off, she's not remorseful at all, not one single bit. What she's doing is called BLAMESHIFTING. Trying to shift the blame to you for her cheating."

This is where she takes you for the ride and as a fool. Your self-esteem is intact as you your gut is telling you this is not acceptable. In my experience, I would not even bother to try reconciling. She seems "trashy" and without the required character traits to sustain a marriage. Please take no offense. It seems many cheater women like to marry inexperienced, innocent-type men they can take advantage of and "play".


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

I suppose the whole EA vs PA thing is entirely in the eyes of those affected. What hurts, hurts. I hate that anyone has to face this, for any reason. It ALL is Hell.

I have to mention, however, that if I were to have found out that my wife had an EA 20 years ago, that she walked away from, I would feel differently than I do today. I would feel shaken, maybe, but still be OK. 


Instead, I found out about a PA from 20 years ago that she walked away from, and am basically a wreck. The violation of the marriage is now so profound, and impossible to completely heal from.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

comparing EAs vs PAs is probably too simplistic. Many PAs also include the EA component. My list starting with the worst

PA with EA
EA
PA without EA


EAs require an enormous amount of time/emotional investment from the WS.........and usually include lying and deceit over a great length of time.........just my view of things of course.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Indy,
I regret that you are here and even more so what needs to be said. You said in your post that you "knew these things going in" but that you were convinced that she had changed. Do you have any idea how nearly impossible it is for people to change their character? It is their essence and the well from which they draw their emotions, their behavior and all the things that make them who they are. Changing that is a monumental undertaking wherein only a select few find success.

So your W has contacted or been contacted by both of the APs from her previous marriage that you are aware of. And she sees nothing wrong with reestablishing a friendship with those men in her current marriage even in light of what happened before? Does this sound prudent to you? Then when you call her out on it she cites your inattentiveness, your over involvement in your work and you being unapproachable as justifications for this contact. She is blameshifting in an effort to throw you off of the scent. She has now returned to the path that she knows so well.

As to how to handle it, you must show strength and fortitude. You must explain to her that there are boundaries that, once crossed, will have definite consequences. I do not suggest "forcing" boundaries on her but rather explaining to her that, in order to remain married to you, there are circumstances that will not be tolerated and that once done cannot be undone. For instance, rekindling a friendship with an old AP. Once she understands your limits then you must be willing to enforce your words with swift and decisive action if those boundaries are not honored.

Now the question you must ask yourself is is this worth it? Is this the life you want to live with this woman? Do you want to spend your life second guessing her motives and questioning her actions and wondering what goes on when you are not watching her?

Trust is a serious issue in any relationship and when it gets damaged in a marriage the burden of policing the other party can become all consuming. It can eventually erode the marriage to the point that one would question whether the marriage was worth it.

If it were me, I would first sit her down and explain how all of this makes you feel. Explain that your trust has been shaken and is significantly damaged and that you are now unsure of all the things you once took for granted. If she shows true concern and a desperate genuine desire to heal your trust, then you have something on which to proceed. If however, she makes excuses for her actions and suggests that you need to get over it and shows no real concern for the way you feel, then I see little on which to base forward progress with this woman. I wish you well in this.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

A drunken one night stand or a yearlong EA where someone gives their heart and soul to a lover, whilst giving little or no emotional support to their spouse.

Which is worse?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Forest said:


> Instead, I found out about a PA from 20 years ago that she walked away from, and am basically a wreck. The violation of the marriage is now so profound, and impossible to completely heal from.


 I won't be so arrogant to call you opinion wrong however your view of this is askew right now due to lack of perspective. An EA is by far and away more damaging than a PA since physical contact requires time, privacy and careful steps to avoid being caught lest they risk ending their little affair. 

An EA happens right in front of the BS, around the clock, during sex with their spouse until it is either stopped or graduated into an open relationship which means the goal was sex and the consequence was a Divorce. Often steps and due diligence can and does dissuade a caught wayward from continuing a PA since the WS knows they are being watched around the clock and will think twice about even trying to make contact let alone meet up.

An EA is disguised well by good intentions of the "Just friends" moniker to the point of little effort for the WS to convince their BS that they are the one with the problem. Even with proof, hard words or phone bills, etc, as EA can be camouflaged by the lack of that one last deed, extramarital sex, so it is not only easy to convince a BS, but the betrayed are eager to accept this often until it is too late. They are too muddled by the lies, thier gut feelings, and other red flags to make clear that an EA is a precursor to what people? Sex!!!

Now you say that the discovery of an EA is more preferable than the PA you unfortunately found out. Granted no sex would've been involved but she would have wanted to and if she did not pursue this endeavor what caused her to stop or not go thru with it? You'd be pressed to find the ones who stopped it willingly vs the ones who simply had the lack of opportunity to facilitate their then emotional need.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

Forest, any betrayal is devastating. A 20 year PA strongly suggests a serious EA. Been there, although in my case it's 6-10 years. Why they could not let each other go for so long? At this point, I quit trying to figure it out, so I let the WS go (along with his paraphernalia).


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Calibre1212 said:


> Forest, any betrayal is devastating. A 20 year PA strongly suggests a serious EA. Been there, although in my case it's 6-10 years. Why they could not let each other go for so long? At this point, I quit trying to figure it out, so I let the WS go (along with his paraphernalia).


Just for clarity, the PA lasted only 1 year, but it occurred 20 years ago. He had the good sense to flatter her constantly. Ultimately, of course, she realized he was just a spineless jerk. Lucky me.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Indy said:


> Hi. First post-I'm so glad I found this place.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for 18 years. She was married before and admitted cheating on her husband with two different men while he was away at sea; she was a Navy wife. When we were dating, she admitted this and expressed regret. She began to attend church with me and had a spiritual experience, saying that she was sorry of the life she once led. We were engaged for about a year and then we married. Yeah, I know...I knew all of these things going in but I truly believed that she had changed. She is the only woman I've been with and I'll admit to being naive.
> 
> ...


And yet apparently you're ok with her still having contact with an old "lover?" I predict more bad times for you.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Forest said:


> I suppose the whole EA vs PA thing is entirely in the eyes of those affected. What hurts, hurts. I hate that anyone has to face this, for any reason. It ALL is Hell.


:iagree:



Forest said:


> I have to mention, however, that if I were to have found out that my wife had an EA 20 years ago, that she walked away from, I would feel differently than I do today. I would feel shaken, maybe, but still be OK.
> 
> Instead, I found out about a PA from 20 years ago that she walked away from, and am basically a wreck. The violation of the marriage is now so profound, and impossible to completely heal from.


As Forest wrote "the whole EA vs PA thing is entirely in the eyes of those affected." I for one would react exactly like Forest.

I think that there is a very primitive reason some men feel that a PA is much worse than an EA. Women have always known that their children were biological theirs. Men have never had that luxury. In order not to go crazy men put their special woman on a pedestal. Other women may cheat but not theirs. They can go about their business and not worry about what their wife is doing. This is compounded when the man doesn’t cheat. If he doesn’t cheat with testosterone pounding away at him certainly his woman wouldn’t cheat. 

His mate having sex with another man is the ultimate betrayal and makes him feel like a fool for blindly trusting her.

People here have a fit about affairs exposing spouses to STDs. How about exposing your spouse to giving their emotional and finical support to another person’s child for the rest of their lives? Before anyone jumps me I think adoption is great. No one is tricked into adopting.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> I'm a Navy brat and joined the Air Force when I grew up. I'm sorry to say that two men is most likely an understatement. Remember the rule of 3, and that's being conservative. The wives do did cheat when their husbands were deployed, did so on a regular basis. They would be at the enlisted or officers club hooking up with all kinds of guys. Only 2 guys? I don't think so, once she crossed the line, it gets easier and easier to cross it each time. Especially when she had all these toxic friends doing the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

What you should do is get a divorce without trying to do anything.

If you don't want to to that you should tell her to choose No contact whatsoever with this guy and no friendships with men or divorce.


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## Indy (Dec 6, 2014)

Graywolf2 said:


> Is she contacting any other men? If not, contacting those two guys is not random. She’s reminiscing about the fun she had cheating on her first husband. Do those guys live close to you?


No, they're states away but I think it definitely would have gotten physical if they'd been close. That, and I'd probably have battery charges.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Indy said:


> No, they're states away but I think it definitely would have gotten physical if they'd been close. That, and I'd probably have battery charges.


Indy,
Some things your W can take from you and there is little you can do about it but some things you sacrifice on account of her. Do not let her take your freedom by assaulting someone.

The world is replete with men of reprehensible character and you cannot pummel each one of them. You will likely have no interaction with the vast majority of them save the ones your wife allows to become part of your lives. It's not their fault that they are in your life. They would have been content to be excluded from your marriage if your wife had not allowed them in. The fault is theirs for being a dirtbag but her's for allowing them into your marriage.

All blame here has to be placed on the one giving them opportunity. Regrettable but true.


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