# First Visit Since



## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Yesterday was my first visit to "their" home since I moved out last week. Had a lot of fun playing with my son. In the meantime, my wife had her own attorney's visit.

This is still so surreal. My wife is acting so calm, cooperative and caring...if she had been like this the last 3 years, we wouldn't be where we are now. Where has this woman been all my life? Why did it take me moving out?

She's committed to making the divorce "work" and to not be at each others' throats the whole time. But I can see a few cracks showing sometimes in her resolve. I can tell this is more emotional for her than she's letting on.

And yet, she holds part of the answer. She's more committed to having an amicable divorce than she is to working on her issues that have brought us to this point. She would rather make the divorce "work" than admit she ***MIGHT**** have some serious issues that make intimacy impossible. She won't even go see a counselor of her own.

I'm feeling a little bit weak right now to see her behaving so sane, rational, and acting a little bit vulnerable. She seems like the woman I married.

Where has she been all these years?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What was her childhood like?


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## teewhy (Jun 9, 2012)

hurtnohio said:


> I'm feeling a little bit weak right now to see her behaving so sane, rational, and acting a little bit vulnerable. She seems like the woman I married.
> 
> Where has she been all these years?


Hiding, waiting on you to leave...


I don't trust it (then again I don't trust much from stbx's these days)...sounds like a little mind phuckery to me, my friend! 


just my opinion

I honestly think my stbxw was saving some for the next guy...:scratchhead:

Kinda sad though regardless; One moment of sanity from the ex can make us forget about months, even years of madness.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

teewhy said:


> Hiding, waiting on you to leave...
> 
> 
> I don't trust it (then again I don't trust much from stbx's these days)...sounds like a little mind phuckery to me, my friend!
> ...


T-Why,

It's not a conscious thing. She's just wired wrong.

Whereas we're looking for deep connection, she's thrilled with hundreds of superficial encounters where she can grab/use a bit from everyone.

That's not nearly as scary - for her.

Of course, it's horrifying for anyone trying to get close to her.


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## teewhy (Jun 9, 2012)

Yeah Conrad, that makes a lot of sense... Pretty weak and shallow way to live though... All women CAN'T be wired this way though. 

(can they?)


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> What was her childhood like?


I would call it an emotionally abusive environment. 

Her parents are good people who mean well. But they had issues of their own.

Her mom was being sexually abused by an uncle when she was a teenager. Her grandfather (my MIL's dad) refused to confront the situation as forcefully as he should have. 

Not sure why, since I never met the man. I do know he was a well-known minister in his demonination and put a lot of stock in his reputation and the image his family portrayed. He also had a stubborn belief that blood is thicker than water and that issues like this should be addressed within families, rather than resorting to outside authorities like the police. 

My wife's mom and dad started dating in high school (he was 17, she was 16). They eloped, primarily to get her mom out of that abusive environment. They got pregnant almost immediately after marrying. So here my wife was born to a teenaged mother who had only gotten married when she did to escape sexual abuse, for which she had never gotten any validation or counseling. What a way to start....

Also, my wife was a twin. So here these two teenage, broken parents are, trying to raise TWO baby girls! 

I think they did as good as they knew how, but that wasn't much. My wife has shared some of her most vivid memories:

- Her dad getting mad at her when she was a little girl and refusing to talk to her for days on end, in an effort to punish her
- The day they put all three girls (she has a younger sister, too) in the car and drove to a hill overlooking the women's prison in Ohio and lecturing the girls about how if they didn't behave and listen to mom and dad, they'd end up in there.
- Her parents refusing to let her participate in extracurricular activities because she might excel at one and then get a big head...better to not try at all than run the risk of becoming conceited by success.
- Her mother cornering her coming back from one of the few outings with friends that she was permitted to attend and badgering her for hours until my wife provided the answer her mother was looking for (even if it wasn't the truth)
- A sense of isolation...her parents moved a lot, and frequently found a place way out in the country because they couldn't trust "city people."
- And yet, they somehow always managed to end up living next to someone who was crazy (hmmm....if every time you move, you end up with bad neighbors.....?)

There's more, but I think that makes the point.

My wife spent a lot of the first part of our marriage worrying about what her parents think of her, hoping for a better relationship, etc. Then one night about 6 years ago, she and her parents sat down and aired a LOT of old issues. She seemed to come to some kind of resolution at that time. 

I was glad she found her peace with her parents, but I was also apprehensive that her getting too close to them might hurt US. I expressed this fear to her, and she assured me that we would be OK.

That's not how things have worked out. Maybe it's just me, but my perception is that the closer she's gotten to her parents, the more difficult a time we have. Also, her parents have slowly become more antagonistic toward me over the years.

Don't know if that was what you were looking for, but that's my perception!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

teewhy said:


> Yeah Conrad, that makes a lot of sense... Pretty weak and shallow way to live though... All women CAN'T be wired this way though.
> 
> (can they?)


I've heard they aren't

But remember, you must steamroll your own neediness out of your life before you'll be ready to find "the other kind"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> I would call it an emotionally abusive environment.
> 
> Her parents are good people who mean well. But they had issues of their own.
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised to hear her childhood home was filled with neglect, anger, and abandonment. What you describe of her behavior towards you (ie: the lack of commitment to doing anything different and the anger when not getting her way) screams of an emotionally broken person.

She's likely known what you've wanted for years, but has been secretly angry with you because she's simply terrified to actually commit/submit to a man. She likely distrusts all men and holds them in contempt. You see, people who should not have hurt her DID hurt her a long time ago. You are likely the stand-in for her anger towards them.

Marriage counseling is not what she needs.

Individual counseling IS what she needs - with a focus on her interactions with you - and how she can get past her own anger and the resulting dismissal of your needs in your relationship.

Keep in mind that some people actually attend therapy simply to nurse their own internal anger. Of course, this gets nowhere. Then they end up repeating the same old mistakes for the rest of their lives. They are miserable and they blame everyone but themselves.

The people that hurt her aren't here.

Now, she's paying it forward.

It can stop here. But, she's going to need to fix herself. She's the only one that can.

You taking her crap doesn't help her a bit. Most importantly, it does nothing positive for you.

So, quit thinking there's "something" you can do that will make her become who you want her to be. And, quit blaming yourself. Her issues are hers alone.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> I'm not surprised to hear her childhood home was filled with neglect, anger, and abandonment. What you describe of her behavior towards you (ie: the lack of commitment to doing anything different and the anger when not getting her way) screams of an emotionally broken person.
> 
> She's likely known what you've wanted for years, but has been secretly angry with you because she's simply terrified to actually commit/submit to a man. She likely distrusts all men and holds them in contempt. You see, people who should not have hurt her DID hurt her a long time ago. You are likely the stand-in for her anger towards them.
> 
> ...


After a year-and-a-half of therapy, I have slowly reached the same conclusion. Marriage counesling only made things worse. Until she quit going. Then she proclaimed she would go back, but only to a new therapist. Which sounds like "answer shopping" to me.

I strongly suspect Borderline Personality Disorder. I can clearly identify 7 of the 9 diagnostic criteria in her, and a possible 8th (she's never cut herself or attempted suicide, but she has spent hours in front of the mirror picking at blemishes on her face). The only one of the 9 she doesn't have is the promiscuity. And there is certainly a strong correlation between BPD and hurtful childhoods. Literally, in some of our arguments, I've felt like I was trying to reason with a 4-year old. Which I probably was in an emotional sense.

It was quite frustrating for years to hear well-meaning friends say, "Never go to bed until you talk out your disagreements." Which I'm sure works well for "normal" people. When one of the spouses is BPD, though, we tried talking things out, just made them worse, and lost a lot of sleep. We eventually quit trying to talk things out before bed because we'd just get worked up and couldn't sleep later. And forget about make-up sex. Or any kind of sex, sometimes for weeks after an argument.

When I mentioned all this to our counselor (whom I continue to see on my own), she implied that she agreed. She's too good a counselor to agree outright, but she did tell me to trust my instincts. She's also given me a lot of advice since then that was prefaced by, "If we're really dealing with a personality disorder here....." So I'm pretty sure I know what the therapist thinks.

I have sadly concluded that this is probably the end of the road. But at the same time, I still wonder....is there any way I could have put up with it any longer? Did I do enough? Could I have just manned up and stuck it out a little while longer?

I feel weak. I almost feel guilty for trying to take care of myself. There were specific things that pushed me in this direction....

- The day I went to "my" room to try to disengage from her yelling and I hear my 3-year old ask her in a quiet voice, "Did Daddy do something wrong?"

- The day she refused to quit a heated argument when our son was present, despite my repeated requests for her to do so. Two days later, my son asked me if the "tone" that Momma had hurt me.

I realized this (and a hundred othe conversations) are affecting our son. Regardless of whether I can endure abuse - or should even have to - I don't want his little spirit to be effected by this chaos.

I do not believe in divorce. But even more so, I do not believe that spouses are obligated to stay in verbally and emotionally abusive situations. So even though I despise divorce, I believe it is the less evil of all the options in front of me.

But I still feel like a failure. I understand with my head that, even with my faults and failings, I did not cause this. I know that in my head.

But my heart isn't so sure. It still hurts from the failed attempt to make things work.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And, it really bothers you that all of a sudden here is the rational left-brained woman you thought you married.

But, all her energy and drive now is in trying to get away from you.

What's her financial situation?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> And, it really bothers you that all of a sudden here is the rational left-brained woman you thought you married.
> 
> But, all her energy and drive now is in trying to get away from you.
> 
> What's her financial situation?


She currently receives disability checks for fibromyalgia. 

(Side note...there's some research that indicates a high correlation between having fibromyalgia and personality disorders. My family doctor told me that after he confirmed she had told him I was bugging the phones). 

She's a licensed school teacher in Ohio, so does have a profession. Teachers aren't exactly rolling in job opportunities in Ohio right now, but she does have professional experience.

Given the length of our marriage, I'm sure spousal support will be part of our agreement.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If you could see the chaos in her head, you'd understand why her body hurts. Overwhelming stress and anxiety lead to physical symptoms.

I guess I was asking if you are paying her bills right now.

Are you?

How much cash does she have access to in marital accounts?

Did she always handle finances?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> If you could see the chaos in her head, you'd understand why her body hurts. Overwhelming stress and anxiety lead to physical symptoms.
> 
> I guess I was asking if you are paying her bills right now.
> 
> ...


I am maintaining the family home. We're trying to pay down our credit card debts. For now, my pay continues to go into our joint account, she continues to pay the bills, and she allocates money to me for my new quarters, my PO box, and my storage unit.

I do have my own account set up, and if she ever becomes abusive in how the money is handled pending the divorce, I can quickly change my direct deposit to my new account. But for now she has actually shown a willingness to work with me on the financial front, so I'm letting that one go for now. 

We don't have a sizeable amount of money in the bank. Our biggest assets are our houses (1 family home, 1 rental property), and our retirement accounts. Her retirement account is more sizeable than mine, but they are in mine or her name only, respectively.

As I said, I have my own checking account and am ready to switch my paycheck over to it if the situation deteriorates.


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> If you could see the chaos in her head, you'd understand why her body hurts. Overwhelming stress and anxiety lead to physical symptoms.
> 
> I guess I was asking if you are paying her bills right now.
> 
> ...



My daughters mother has Chronic Pain all day everyday from the inner stress she puts on her life.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

So, you pay for everything without living there.

If you were her, would you view that as you being "nice" or being a doormat?


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