# Friends with Opposite Sex



## sscygni

So after reading this forum for a short while, I must say that I am very surprised how many posters believe that a spouse should effectively have zero contact with members of the opposite sex (outside of professional) after marriage. Perhaps it is because I am reading a lot in the infidelity forums where trust is an issue, but is that really what people think? That getting married means that half of the Earth's population is now off limits as a friend? That it is impossible to have a friendship with a member of the opposite sex without it becoming more? That seems like pretty paranoid and immature thinking to me.

Comments welcome.


----------



## jdawg2015

Been debated her at length.

Does not mean you don't talk to OSF.

But it means you don't text men/women, you don't go out to dinner and lunch with them.

OSF are friends of BOTH people. 

For most this is natural and if you feel you can't just let that guy/gal go from your life and will keep even if your spouse is uncomfortable with it then you have to question yourself.

This short video is pretty good summary of how it works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xMtGdEjqYI

And for you women who think you have a guy who is really just a friend. You should watch and listen. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLqK0DTevxA



sscygni said:


> So after reading this forum for a short while, I must say that I am very surprised how many posters believe that a spouse should effectively have zero contact with members of the opposite sex (outside of professional) after marriage. Perhaps it is because I am reading a lot in the infidelity forums where trust is an issue, but is that really what people think? That getting married means that half of the Earth's population is now off limits as a friend? That it is impossible to have a friendship with a member of the opposite sex without it becoming more? That seems like pretty paranoid and immature thinking to me.
> 
> Comments welcome.


----------



## MrsAldi

Before I would have agreed with you, but having had a lot of male friends, a lot of them hit on me when their relationships were going bad etc. 
Guys in work, my husband's married friends & even a gay friend who turned out to be bisexual. 




Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

80% of affairs start as friendships.

A lot of people bury their heads in the sand on this one.


----------



## sscygni

Sorry for rehashing, but at this point, haven't MOST topics been discussed at length? I did not see anything recent to read, so instead of incurring wrath by reviving an old thread I decide just to start one.

First video: I totally agree that keeping details from your spouse is toxic, as is persisting in behaviors that your spouse finds uncomfortable. I am more thinking about totally in the open friendships, that the spouse is fully aware of. However, I think there is a strong potential for a little cause and effect shifting if you are asking an infidelity coach about OSFs. I agree that many, if not most, affairs start as OSFs, however I don't agree that most, or many, OSFs become affairs.


----------



## NoChoice

I think the fundamental issue here is the defining of the word friend. IMO a friend is someone in whom you can confide, trust implicitly, share intimate thoughts and feelings with and be yourself, completely. In so doing there develops an emotional attachment and then "love". Why would one want to engage in such an arrangement where the possibility of physical attachment can occur with someone other than their spouse?

Now if we use the word acquaintance, which denotes no emotional involvement then that is a different matter.


----------



## BioFury

It's a matter of priorities. If your marriage is of the utmost importance to you, then you'll be less inclined to risk it's health.

To some people, a friendship is worth the risk.


----------



## The Middleman

sscygni said:


> So after reading this forum for a short while, I must say that I am very surprised how many posters believe that a spouse should effectively have zero contact with members of the opposite sex (outside of professional) after marriage. Perhaps it is because I am reading a lot in the infidelity forums where trust is an issue, but is that really what people think? That getting married means that half of the Earth's population is now off limits as a friend? That it is impossible to have a friendship with a member of the opposite sex without it becoming more?


I absolutely feel that opposite sex friends have no place in a marriage, with all my heart, and have lived my marriage by that rule for the last 30 years. It was something my wife didn't really agree with in the beginning, but she has lived by as well. No opposite sex, close, personal friends for either of us. Whenever we are with opposite sex friends (really acquaintances), they are part of other couples and we see them as a couple. That's it, end of discussion. I'd rather cut out half the population as potential friends than risk either one of us getting too close to a member of the opposite sex and potentially hurting our marriage or each other. If that makes me paranoid and immature, then I'll wear that as a badge of honor.



sscygni said:


> That seems like pretty paranoid and immature thinking to me.
> 
> Comments welcome.


Actually, I think that suggesting that OSFs are not an issue in a marriage is immature and naive. Here is an blog that can explain why you are so hopelessly wrong much better than I can. Maybe it will open your mind a little.

https://danielmiessler.com/blog/on-spending-time-with-the-opposite-sex/


----------



## Marc878

Ignorance is bliss until it isn't.

The most lies told are he/she is JUST a friend.

Usually starts at work, reunions, old acquaintances on Fvckbook, etc.


----------



## WonkyNinja

BioFury said:


> It's a matter of priorities. If your marriage is of the utmost importance to you, then you'll be less inclined to risk it's health.
> 
> To some people, a friendship is worth the risk.


And many people have no problems with OSFs without risking the health of the marriage. You can be friends with someone for the pleasure of their company and intellect without having to have sex with them, outside of the Bonobo kingdom it can be done.

Yes, it is possible that some people start out as friends and end up having an affair but some people go out to the grocery store and end up dying in a car crash, however you still need to get groceries so you try and drive safely.

If any of my OSFs started saying anything negative about my wife they would cease to be Fs.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Marc878 said:


> 80% of affairs start as friendships.
> 
> A lot of people bury their heads in the sand on this one.


Data source?


----------



## jdawg2015

As they stay there's a fine line between the brave and the stupid.

Im a guy with vast majority of my friends long term married. not one of them text OSF or hang out with them 1:1

Not ONE. 

And this covers Americans, Europeans, and Asians.

If I were talking to you as a friend I would tell you stop bull****ing me and stop lying to yourself.

It's not just about sex.



WonkyNinja said:


> BioFury said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a matter of priorities. If your marriage is of the utmost importance to you, then you'll be less inclined to risk it's health.
> 
> To some people, a friendship is worth the risk.
> 
> 
> 
> And many people have no problems with OSFs without risking the health of the marriage. You can be friends with someone for the pleasure of their company and intellect without having to have sex with them, outside of the Bonobo kingdom it can be done.
> 
> Yes, it is possible that some people start out as friends and end up having an affair but some people go out to the grocery store and end up dying in a car crash, however you still need to get groceries so you try and drive safely.
> 
> If any of my OSFs started saying anything negative about my wife they would cease to be Fs.
Click to expand...


----------



## jdawg2015

Quick search shows 60%

Of the people I know that cheated almost all were work affairs.

It's a lot. Link below. Maybe you'll learn something.

http://facts.randomhistory.com/affairs-facts.html




WonkyNinja said:


> Marc878 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 80% of affairs start as friendships.
> 
> A lot of people bury their heads in the sand on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> Data source?
Click to expand...


----------



## Married but Happy

We both have plenty of OSFs - always have, always will. All are friends to us both, and we will usually all do things together - but, we can and do get together sometimes without the spouse. We find it easy to establish and maintain boundaries - because our marriage is so important, we aren't tempted to cross them. Even though we have an open relationship, that just means the boundaries need to be very clear and are very important, and open communication is paramount. We've never had any problems in over 16 years.


----------



## GusPolinski

As w/ all things, the details matter.

Having and maintaining a friendship w/ an OSF isn't in and of itself a bad thing, so long as certain boundaries are in place.

Maintaining an OS friendship w/ an _ex_, though? I can imagine that most would view that w/ a certain level of scrutiny.

*Changes* in the way that OS friendships are viewed also has to be taken into account. Let's say, for example, that a given person had never really been known to have OS friendships outside of casual workplace relationships, "my friend's spouse/SO" relationships, couples/mutual friends relationships, etc, and then -- all of a sudden -- started talking about this new friend of the opposite sex. I'd imagine that would raise some eyebrows as well, even if only slightly.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

This is why you discuss it. 
I'd dump you the minute I heard you say accept him or I'm gone.

Because you would be telling me I have no choice. So I would then say here's my choice: Buh-bye.



spinsterdurga said:


> sscygni said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after reading this forum for a short while, I must say that I am very surprised how many posters believe that a spouse should effectively have zero contact with members of the opposite sex (outside of professional) after marriage. Perhaps it is because I am reading a lot in the infidelity forums where trust is an issue, but is that really what people think? That getting married means that half of the Earth's population is now off limits as a friend? That it is impossible to have a friendship with a member of the opposite sex without it becoming more? That seems like pretty paranoid and immature thinking to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Comments welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most people here are paranoid.
> 
> My best friend is a guy that I've known since I was 8. There is no way I'll ditch him.
> 
> I think that it's okay to have OSFs as long as there are boundaries. My friend has been there for me, and I love him as a brother.
> 
> Honestly, I'd see a man who demand that I end my friendship as insecure and a potential ex.
Click to expand...


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

Your best friend is supposed to be your spouse.

I can't imagine when I was married to my wife of 20 years her telling me her best friend was another guy.

There are a lot of men who won't take your deal. If I'm not my ladies number 1 then she's gone.

honey, let me ask my best friend Mikey what he thinks about where we are going for our anniversary. Ok dear tell me if he approves. /sarcasm

Honey I'm going to dinner tonight with my best friend Mikey don't wait up. Ok dear enjoy your date. /sarcasm

Dad, I was walking by Applebee's and I saw mom and some guy having dinner. It's ok daughter, it's just some guy friend taking mom on dinner dates. /sarcasm

Perception matters too...

I'm not insecure. I have enough self respect to not intertwine my life with someone who would put me as second option. 




spinsterdurga said:


> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why you discuss it.
> I'd dump you the minute I heard you say accept him or I'm gone.
> 
> Because you would be telling me I have no choice. So I would then say here's my choice: Buh-bye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good riddance?
Click to expand...


----------



## tech-novelist

sscygni said:


> Sorry for rehashing, but at this point, haven't MOST topics been discussed at length? I did not see anything recent to read, so instead of incurring wrath by reviving an old thread I decide just to start one.
> 
> First video: I totally agree that keeping details from your spouse is toxic, as is persisting in behaviors that your spouse finds uncomfortable. I am more thinking about totally in the open friendships, that the spouse is fully aware of. However, I think there is a strong potential for a little cause and effect shifting if you are asking an *infidelity coach* about OSFs. I agree that many, if not most, affairs start as OSFs, however I don't agree that most, or many, OSFs become affairs.


Can you get a certification in *that*? What is the practicum like? >


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

When people can't discuss the issue the attack the messenger.

I think they video has it spot on. So many times when you go deep inside one or the other of the "friends" has some level of attraction. If your spouse is complaining about a relationship youre having with an OSF and don't care the. that speaks volumes.



tech-novelist said:


> sscygni said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for rehashing, but at this point, haven't MOST topics been discussed at length? I did not see anything recent to read, so instead of incurring wrath by reviving an old thread I decide just to start one.
> 
> First video: I totally agree that keeping details from your spouse is toxic, as is persisting in behaviors that your spouse finds uncomfortable. I am more thinking about totally in the open friendships, that the spouse is fully aware of. However, I think there is a strong potential for a little cause and effect shifting if you are asking an *infidelity coach* about OSFs. I agree that many, if not most, affairs start as OSFs, however I don't agree that most, or many, OSFs become affairs.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you get a certification in *that*? What is the practicum like?
Click to expand...


----------



## jdawg2015

It's not a threat.

I just don't have relationships with women who need more than one man intricately in their life.

You don't need to ditch them. But too many times I've seen "guy friend" not respect the relationship.

Guys hang around women they want to fxck. Fact. 

If you bf or husband gets a bad vibe then you better listen or your guy friend will keep 

If i am dating you there are things that guy friend has to respect. And too often they cross lines.

If you have a super close guy friend I'll pass on you. Most relationship material women don't do it.

Woman I'm dating now does not and we're aligned on the bull**** of "friends". And I don't have lady friends in chit chat small talk messaging behind her back either.

Go watch that Steve Harvey video I linked above. Hopefully sinks into you. 



spinsterdurga said:


> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your best friend is supposed to be your spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have 4 best friends (3 girls & 1 guy). So I'm supposed to not have a best friend until I get married? My spouse can (and will) be my best friend but it doesn't mean that I need to ditch the people who were there for me BEFORE him.
> 
> It's crazy to me to feel threatened for no reason.
> 
> 
> 
> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perception matters too...
> 
> I'm not insecure. I have enough self respect to not intertwine my life with someone who would put me as second option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we'll agree to disagree. You can't police a cheater into not cheating. I see needing to be your spouse's only best friend as an insecurity.
Click to expand...


----------



## foolscotton3

I think opposite friends arent an issue as long as you do not have direct lines of communication that cannot be viewed publicly or at least by your spouse.

So if you have opposite face book friends that you want to make plans with, leave your Facebook open for your spouse to see. Share passwords etc.

At no time do I think it is appropriate to be planning or spending alone time with an OSF, meeting for drinks, dinner, movies, and the like.

Hang out in groups, chat openly, and you can enjoy your friendship as much as you want without giving place for confusion or betrayals.

Oh and never confide in your OSF about your relationships, unless you never want your SO to confide in you again. 

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


----------



## jdawg2015

These women who have male friends as their "bestie" will have "guy friend" who will have no qualms about inserting his opinion, thoughts, and commentary on any guy that comes along. Essentially he has insight to any and everything in your relationship.

And when a woman says she's already a package deal with her male friend, count me out.

These male friends essentially become frenemies from day one. I went through this with my exF. And way too many times at some point a woman will have done at least kissing with guy friend from the sexual tension that exists. You really can't every trust a woman's story about the history of her and guy friend.

You can be sure guy friend will have access and be able to comment on the relationship. Whereas if you tell your lady, I'm not too keen on guy friend then you are insecure and mean to my friend. Lose-lose.

It's a cuckold.

Guys, these kind of women about are NOT relationship material. They should come with a warning label attached to their forehead. 



foolscotton3 said:


> I think opposite friends arent an issue as long as you do not have direct lines of communication that cannot be viewed publicly or at least by your spouse.
> 
> So if you have opposite face book friends that you want to make plans with, leave your Facebook open for your spouse to see. Share passwords etc.
> 
> At no time do I think it is appropriate to be planning or spending alone time with an OSF, meeting for drinks, dinner, movies, and the like.
> 
> Hang out in groups, chat openly, and you can enjoy your friendship as much as you want without giving place for confusion or betrayals.
> 
> Oh and never confide in your OSF about your relationships, unless you never want your SO to confide in you again.
> 
> Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> Guys hang around women they want to fxck. Fact.


Some guys. Not all.


----------



## notmyrealname4

```


----------



## straightshooter

Sorry OP
You are correct on one thing and that is it is unrealistic unless you are locked in the house to avoid interactions with men who are not your husband or partner. But this is crap thatr these relationships do not have to CHANGE significantly when you are married.
The facts is if you read ANYTHING about infidelity is that most affairs do not occur between strangers, but they occur between "friends" or acquaintances that head down a slippery slope. How about reading the book "Not Just Friends".

Your statement or others that they are like brothers may be true but these forums are crammed full of affairs with "friends" of the opposite sex.

It never ceases to amaze me how women on here think their husbands or boyfriends should be just fine with then hanging out alone with other men, going to their houses and even sleeping over alone, or going away for trips with another man, and then tell their spouse he is just a "FRIEND"

Now, probably 90% of folks who enter into an affair would make the statement that it was NEVER supposed to happen, and if you read threads by WW they very often start with thie following statement

"I never thought I would cheat. But the OM just kept showier ing me with compliments and I could not resist the ego kibbles"

Of course, you think you are unique or different. But you are not.

There is NOTHING wrong with having ACQUAINTANCES of the opposite sex. But your husband is no Neanderthal for not accepting you running around alone with another man whenever the urge strikes you. And your past with the OM is meaningless. 

If you want to not change anything when you are married, you need to talk to your husband about non monogamy. You are not going to find the majority of men on this planet happy with their spouse or partner with a make best friend.


----------



## NextTimeAround

spinsterdurga said:


> Most people here are paranoid.
> 
> *My best friend is a guy that I've known since I was 8. There is no way I'll ditch him. *
> 
> I think that it's okay to have OSFs as long as there are boundaries. My friend has been there for me, and I love him as a brother.
> 
> *Honestly, I'd see a man who demand that I end my friendship as insecure and a potential ex*.



This is the interesting irony about a socalled friend for whom you would readily dump your husband.

So while you would expect your husband to:
1. stop dating and having sex with other women
2. put up with your family members especially during precious holiday time
3. integrate finances, maybe you even expected your husband both before and after marriage to pay for the dating / social expenses......

you would still expect him to let you call the shots with "just friends." While of course, your good friend is able to:
1. date and have sex with whomever and whenever he pleases
2. is able to turn down invitations to hang out with you or you and your family
3. maintains his own finances; may even insist on going dutch with you......

It would still be more important to keep him in your life than your husband........

Your friend has a sweet deal. Wonder how his future wife is going to organize you into their life when she comes on the scene.......


----------



## NextTimeAround

notmyrealname4 said:


> I had a workplace osf at one time.
> 
> I thought he did not view me sexually because I'm really only average looking, and at that time, kind of a toothpick physically. Plus, I had a bf. (My current H),
> 
> Well, it turned out I was wrong . And my reputation at work took a bit of a hit. I never so much as held the guys hand, but everyone was.assuming otherwise. *Apparently, the gossip was that I was going to dump my bf, and perhaps marry osf.*
> 
> Never again in a million years. Even if you don't think you are pretty enough, or smart enough to have that sort of effect on a random guy friend.



Your work buddy probably instigate and encouraged those rumors.


----------



## Married but Happy

It's very simple, IMO. If my spouse is trustworthy, then it doesn't matter who they have as a friend, or even when or where they see that friend. A trustworthy spouse will maintain boundaries, and even end a friendship where the friend can't respect boundaries. If they are not trustworthy, it still doesn't matter, because they will not remain my spouse - why would I want to keep them, or try to control someone I can't trust? I will find out sooner or later (probably sooner), if boundaries aren't being observed.


----------



## foolscotton3

I'm trying to even figure out why I would even want a female best friend.

Maybe my sister, I don't mind sticking my nose in her drama and stirring the pot, so-to-speak, but it's more of a love hate relationship.

I don't have the patience, motivation, or energy to warrant a OSF.

If we were to be more than just friends, I might find some time to "hang out, and chill."

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


----------



## NextTimeAround

Married but Happy said:


> It's very simple, IMO. If my spouse is trustworthy, then it doesn't matter who they have as a friend, or even when or where they see that friend. A trustworthy spouse will maintain boundaries, and even end a friendship where the friend can't respect boundaries. If they are not trustworthy, it still doesn't matter, because they will not remain my spouse - why would I want to keep them, or try to control someone I can't trust? I will find out sooner or later (probably sooner), if boundaries aren't being observed.



I agree with you and will take it a step further....... a trustworthy person who is AND wants to appear to be trustworthy will avoid situations that are or even just look inappropriate in the first place.

So, yea, having good standards and boundaries means that you can get rid of a non trustworthy person before any real problems arise.


----------



## jdawg2015

Yes, I forgot that your father and brother don't count so it's not all guys.

Just all guys that are not relatives.

Guys are friends with women only to hope to someday get laid. It's natural law.



Wazza said:


> Some guys. Not all.


----------



## Wolf1974

I am one of the few that don't seem to have a problem with it, I have several female friends. Yes my GF has met all of them, no she isn't jealous of any of them, I give her no reason to be. I will hang with them alone or we go out as couples. I wouldn't be with someone who ever tried to define my relationships with other people. It's not my job to coddle insecurity.

That said I do agree we are products of our past. My X cheated on me with a co-worker she only knew for a month. Had it been a long time friend I may feel different on the matter.


----------



## Rowan

I would never try to tell a partner that they were not allowed to have an opposite sex friend. That said, I also would not have a relationship with a partner who insisted on maintaining close, personal, intimate friend relationships with members of the opposite sex. That's not about controlling them, that's about what I find I'm personally willing to tolerate in a relationship. I'd be incompatible with that person's values and outlook on life. No harm, no foul, we're just not a good match. 

To me, the tolerance for opposite sex friendships in a relationship is a point of compatibility. Those who want to maintain opposite sex friendships are just basically incompatible with those who do not accept opposite sex friendships while in a committed relationship, and vice versa.


----------



## Married but Happy

NextTimeAround said:


> I agree with you and will take it a step further....... a trustworthy person who is AND wants to appear to be trustworthy will avoid situations that are or even just look inappropriate in the first place.
> 
> So, yea, having good standards and boundaries means that you can get rid of a non trustworthy person before any real problems arise.


You're right. We both avoid situations that could become inappropriate - i.e., where we think we might have to assert a boundary with a friend who may not know just where that boundary is - yet. They learn fast, though, if they want to remain a friend. On the other hand, we don't care if anyone else thinks our friendships look inappropriate (e.g., if they see us out with a friend), as long as we know the truth. I've occasionally run into a neighbor or other friends when out with an OSF. I just introduce them, and tell them to tell Mrs. MbH that they ran into us while out.


----------



## EllisRedding

GusPolinski said:


> As w/ all things, the details matter.
> 
> Having and maintaining a friendship w/ an OSF isn't in and of itself a bad thing, so long as certain boundaries are in place.
> 
> Maintaining an OS friendship w/ an _ex_, though? I can imagine that most would view that w/ a certain level of scrutiny.
> 
> *Changes* in the way that OS friendships are viewed also has to be taken into account. Let's say, for example, that a given person had never really been known to have OS friendships outside of casual workplace relationships, "my friend's spouse/SO" relationships, couples/mutual friends relationships, etc, and then -- all of a sudden -- started talking about this new friend of the opposite sex. I'd imagine that would raise some eyebrows as well, even if only slightly.


My thoughts are similar to @GusPolinski. I wouldn't be concerned for example if my W has an OSF (not an ex) that was part of her life before we met. Naturally though there would need to be some sort of boundaries (the closer/more personal that friendship is the bigger a problem it could be, so that needs to be factored in).

However, since we have been together neither one of us has really had OSF (aside from mutual friends). That would be a big red flag IMO if suddenly my W befriended a guy (and likewise, I am sure it wouldn't sit well with my W if I did the same with a gal). 

That being said, right now my W and I get very little time together, so if any friend (same sex or opposite) started eating up more of that time that would probably become an issue. I guess I can put this to the test, show up at home with my hot new female friend from the gym 

This got me thinking, talking about the equivalent in a gay relationship, would the same sex friend be the one looked negatively at or the OSF b/c of the potential for switching teams???


----------



## jdawg2015

Several people have alluded to not wanting their partner to be alone with OSF as being insecure.

It's just the opposite. I know what boundary I can accept and having a wife or girlfriend who wants to hang out with some other guy tells me she is a cake eater. Plenty of women out their who have the exact same values to not being alone 1:1 with the opposite sex when in a committed relationship.

It's actually not common amongst long term married couples. 

What is funny is how often the "bestie" is usually single too. I bet many of those female friends will end up with H's who say no way to having you in the picture.

Live by the sword die by the sword.





Wolf1974 said:


> I am one of the few that don't seem to have a problem with it, I have several female friends. Yes my GF has met all of them, no she isn't jealous of any of them, I give her no reason to be. I will hang with them alone or we go out as couples. I wouldn't be with someone who ever tried to define my relationships with other people. It's not my job to coddle insecurity.
> 
> That said I do agree we are products of our past. My X cheated on me with a co-worker she only knew for a month. Had it been a long time friend I may feel different on the matter.


----------



## jdawg2015

Friends of your partner say a lot.

If her friend was engaged in an affair I'd expect her to avoid being out with them, etc.

If friend was disparaging of me or doing things detrimental to the relationship such as encouraging divorce or coaxing her to do shady things. Even same sex friends can be toxic and damage the marriage.

This is why during the dating phase it's so important to align on this. Any woman who says, "I have this great guy named Joe ********* I want you to meet him he's my best buddy". That means get up from your chair and run like heIL. 



EllisRedding said:


> This got me thinking, talking about the equivalent in a gay relationship, would the same sex friend be the one looked negatively at or the OSF b/c of the potential for switching teams???


----------



## Married but Happy

jdawg2015 said:


> If friend was disparaging of me or doing things detrimental to the relationship such as encouraging divorce or coaxing her to do shady things. Even same sex friends can be toxic and damage the marriage.
> 
> *AGREE. That is one of our boundaries.*
> 
> This is why during the dating phase it's so important to align on this. Any woman who says, "I have this great guy named Joe ********* I want you to meet him he's my best buddy". That means get up from your chair and run like heIL.


*Disagree.* I'd would (I did!) meet her best buddy. He became a good friend of mine, and he has always been a friend of our relationship. It doesn't even matter that he was a former bf - he has the same boundaries that we do. Likewise, my wife met my best female friends (former gfs), who have become her friends as well. They know how to respect boundaries and be friends of our marriage, too.


----------



## staarz21

I don't think it's fair to call people paranoid. Maybe that's the technical correct word, but it still sounds hurtful/rude. Many people have been burned by the "OSF" line. Don't we all learn from our past experiences? So, if someone has experienced the OSF affair, it's totally normal for them to reject their next partner for having OSFs and for them to be suspicious of OSF of their next partner. It has NOTHING to do with how trustworthy that partner is. It has to do with you, personally, not wanting to be hurt again....which is completely understandable. People who have been hurt take precautions to not get hurt again. Does it always work? No, we can't prevent it completely, but there are ways to minimize the risk. 

Not everyone takes those precautions even after being burned. It's all personal preference. I've been hurt my whole life. There is not a single person on this planet that I trust. At all. I will never trust anyone. That's just been my life experience. Everyone is out to get something and they will use you to get it. It's unfortunate, but that's the life I had. 

So, for example, since I've been burned (She's just a friend, she doesn't mean anything, she's ugly so I don't think of her that way...blah, blah, blah), I absolutely would not accept someone with OSFs. That's completely okay as there are PLENTY of people who feel the exact same way. Likewise, there are PLENTY of people who don't feel that way and they can gravitate to each other as well. 

That's the whole purpose of weeding potential mates, isn't it?


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

I have a simple rule I follow... if my wife could read about my social conversations and behaviors on the front page of the newspaper and have no concerns, I am thinking clearly.

Gender matters not, but with workplace opposite sex interactions, that rule is applied twice as a boundary check with great success.

There is an Irish saying, "When mistrust comes in, love goes out", I never want my wife to be in a position to have reason to mistrust me.

Early in my workplace days (23 years here), we hung with a group of 6 couples and had "great" friendships doing things.

My wife questioned several boundaries of those couples and pretty much said these people will cause us grief if we continued. I was puzzled as I could not see this but as time went on the couples were removed from our social side.

Today, we are the only couple still married.

If you have friends of the opposite sex, know your boundaries and listen to understand, not reply when there are concerns.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Marduk

It's quite simple.

Either opposite sex friends are friends of the marriage, or they aren't.

Which means that you don't date them (dinner, drinks, trips, etc alone), you don't share intimate details about the marriage with them, you're 100% transparent with your spouse about it, and you don't flirt with them. And if they don't support the marriage, they're gone.

The end.


----------



## jdawg2015

I am bilingual. I speak English and Mandarin.

But if you think talking to your friend in another language in front of your spouse/partner is respecting him, I can't think of a more idiotic thing to do.

You won't win this debate with me. I've got the experience to see the risks and problems created FAR, FAR, FAR, exceed the potential benefits.

He may be you friend but they way you talk about him why not marry him? You are willing to put him about your bf or husband. I feel sorry for sucker who takes that deal.

I'm just thankful the majority of people in relationships see hanging out alone or messaging all the time with their opposite sex "bestie" as disrespectful. 

Have you every asked your guy friend if he'd date you or have sex with you?



spinsterdurga said:


> My friend is respectful. The funny thing is that I don't speak English with him, so a guy will have to trust what I translate since most Americans only speak English.
> 
> Lol at the last sentence!


----------



## jdawg2015

Mirrors what I have seen in all my years.

Tight couples don't go on dinner dates with other people.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> I have a simple rule I follow... if my wife could read about my social conversations and behaviors on the front page of the newspaper and have no concerns, I am thinking clearly.
> 
> Gender matters not, but with workplace opposite sex interactions, that rule is applied twice as a boundary check with great success.
> 
> There is an Irish saying, "When mistrust comes in, love goes out", I never want my wife to be in a position to have reason to mistrust me.
> 
> Early in my workplace days (23 years here), we hung with a group of 6 couples and had "great" friendships doing things.
> 
> My wife questioned several boundaries of those couples and pretty much said these people will cause us grief if we continued. I was puzzled as I could not see this but as time went on the couples were removed from our social side.
> 
> Today, we are the only couple still married.
> 
> If you have friends of the opposite sex, know your boundaries and listen to understand, not reply when there are concerns.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

Because I'm making my point that having boundaries is not being insecure. In fact is just shows I don't lower my standards or compromise my values.

I'm not sure why you want to have relationships with multiple men in your life if in a committed relationship. Maybe you're an attention ho? 

For all the men I know, you aren't going to last. Hope bestie gives you that shoulder to cry on when yet another guy dumps you or you have your next break up.




spinsterdurga said:


> No one is asking you to put yourself in a situation that apparently makes you insecure. I'm confused. You're against OSFs yet you're saying that I don't need to ditch him? Anyway, our friendship is based on respect. I've always respected his relationship and vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So he wanted to **** me since he was 7?
> 
> If there's concrete evidence of him being disrespectful to the relationship, of course I'll end our friendship. However, I won't end it because of a partner's insecurity. I've known him for 15 years so I know him more than my partner.
> 
> My friend is respectful. The funny thing is that I don't speak English with him, so a guy will have to trust what I translate since most Americans only speak English.
> 
> Lol at the last sentence!


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## sscygni

Wolf1974 said:


> I am one of the few that don't seem to have a problem with it, I have several female friends. Yes my GF has met all of them, no she isn't jealous of any of them, I give her no reason to be. I will hang with them alone or we go out as couples. I wouldn't be with someone who ever tried to define my relationships with other people. It's not my job to coddle insecurity.
> 
> That said I do agree we are products of our past. My X cheated on me with a co-worker she only knew for a month. Had it been a long time friend I may feel different on the matter.


That is likely the problem with asking this question here. A disproportionate number of people in TAM have experienced infidelity. It no doubt changes your, lets say, risk tolerance.

Sure, many affairs start with OSF's, but most OSF's do not become affairs. Why? Because it takes more than an OSF to lead to an affair. There needs to be something wrong with the relationship in the first place. 

The best analogy I can think of is sweets. Some people have low self control when it comes to eating sugar. If it is around, they will eventually consume. Others have no problems maintaining self control with a house full of the stuff. If you are in the former group, it is best to avoid temptation. If not, whats the problem? If you are concerned that your partner has cravings, it is natural to feel threatened by OSFs, but the deeper question is why do they have those cravings in the first place.

For the record, I neither have nor really want an OSF at the moment, I just find the strong opinions odd.


----------



## norajane

My fiance and I have OSF's and it is not a problem for us. I would not think to ask him to dump long standing friendships, and I sure wouldn't dump mine. We prefer not to police each other, and our friends aren't a source of conflict, so this never comes up.

Every couple needs to decide this for themselves.


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> Yes, I forgot that your father and brother don't count so it's not all guys.
> 
> Just all guys that are not relatives.
> 
> Guys are friends with women only to hope to someday get laid. It's natural law.


Some guys.

You were wrong the first time you said it, and repeating it doesn't make it true.


----------



## Wazza

sscygni said:


> That is likely the problem with asking this question here. A disproportionate number of people in TAM have experienced infidelity. It no doubt changes your, lets say, risk tolerance.
> 
> Sure, many affairs start with OSF's, but most OSF's do not become affairs. Why? Because it takes more than an OSF to lead to an affair. There needs to be something wrong with the relationship in the first place.
> 
> The best analogy I can think of is sweets. Some people have low self control when it comes to eating sugar. If it is around, they will eventually consume. Others have no problems maintaining self control with a house full of the stuff. If you are in the former group, it is best to avoid temptation. If not, whats the problem? *If you are concerned that your partner has cravings, it is natural to feel threatened by OSFs, but the deeper question is why do they have those cravings in the first place.*
> 
> For the record, I neither have nor really want an OSF at the moment, I just find the strong opinions odd.


I agree with most of what you have written, in particular the notion that this is an exercise in risk management. The only thing I would hesitate a bit with is the bolder bit. I think it is wise to accept your spouse might find things in themselves they didn't know were there.

While I don't agree with Jdawg that guys are just after sex, the sex drive can and does assert itself in all sorts of ways. It pays to draw the boundaries erring on the side of caution.


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> Because I'm making my point that having boundaries is not being insecure. In fact is just shows I don't lower my standards or compromise my values.
> 
> I'm not sure why you want to have relationships with multiple men in your life if in a committed relationship. Maybe you're an attention ho?
> 
> For all the men I know, you aren't going to last. Hope bestie gives you that shoulder to cry on when yet another guy dumps you or you have your next break up.


Having boundaries is good. No one is asking you to lower yours, but we are asserting that different boundaries might work for different people.

As to your second paragraph. I am a fairly private person, and could count on one hand the number of really close friendships I have had in my life. And all bar one of those have been OSF. 

I can see that it wouldn't work for you because in the back of your head you are contemplating sex with any woman you associate with, if I understand you correctly. Knowing how I feel when a woman attracts me in that way, I can see why you draw the line you draw, and it seems totally right for you. 

My head works differently. Different boundaries work for me. Including backing off a bit if things seem to be moving from friend zone. Or backing off a lot if needed. And avoiding situations where something could happen. And being accountable to what my wife is comfortable with. But it is possible to do all that and still have friendships.


----------



## Wazza

staarz21 said:


> I don't think it's fair to call people paranoid. Maybe that's the technical correct word, but it still sounds hurtful/rude. Many people have been burned by the "OSF" line. Don't we all learn from our past experiences? So, if someone has experienced the OSF affair, it's totally normal for them to reject their next partner for having OSFs and for them to be suspicious of OSF of their next partner. It has NOTHING to do with how trustworthy that partner is. It has to do with you, personally, not wanting to be hurt again....which is completely understandable. People who have been hurt take precautions to not get hurt again. Does it always work? No, we can't prevent it completely, but there are ways to minimize the risk.
> 
> Not everyone takes those precautions even after being burned. It's all personal preference. I've been hurt my whole life. There is not a single person on this planet that I trust. At all. I will never trust anyone. That's just been my life experience. Everyone is out to get something and they will use you to get it. It's unfortunate, but that's the life I had.
> 
> So, for example, since I've been burned (She's just a friend, she doesn't mean anything, she's ugly so I don't think of her that way...blah, blah, blah), I absolutely would not accept someone with OSFs. That's completely okay as there are PLENTY of people who feel the exact same way. Likewise, there are PLENTY of people who don't feel that way and they can gravitate to each other as well.
> 
> That's the whole purpose of weeding potential mates, isn't it?


I really like what you wrote.

I've been where you are on trust at one stage. I won't thread jack (much). Just wanted to say that if you can figure out what motivates someone, you can form a view on where to trust them and where to be careful. 

And I see no problem with drawing the boundaries where you think they should be. If someone cares for you they will respect your boundaries, even when those boundaries differ from theirs.


----------



## Wolf1974

jdawg2015 said:


> Several people have alluded to not wanting their partner to be alone with OSF as being insecure.
> 
> It's just the opposite. I know what boundary I can accept and having a wife or girlfriend who wants to hang out with some other guy tells me she is a cake eater. Plenty of women out their who have the exact same values to not being alone 1:1 with the opposite sex when in a committed relationship.
> 
> It's actually not common amongst long term married couples.
> 
> *What is funny is how often the "bestie" is usually single too. I bet many of those female friends will end up with H's who say no way to having you in the picture.
> *
> Live by the sword die by the sword.


Nope.. My two good female friends, I married them both to their husbands... I am ordained, and still good friends with their families and we often all go out together.

You are right that you get to have imposed whatever boundry you want for you life and get to live it anyway you want. But I will be doing the same and if someone I was dating said no OSF then she would be the one who has to go.


----------



## notmyrealname4

---


----------



## ReidWright

notmyrealname4 said:


> I
> 
> I've noticed that some folks participating in the thread say that osf's are okay,_ as long as_:
> 
> No conversations about the more personal stuff in your romantic relationship
> 
> No going out for dinner
> 
> No trips
> 
> Don't have alcoholic drinks with them
> 
> Don't say anything with them that couldn't safely appear on the front page of a newspaper
> 
> 
> Etc, etc. But that's not much of a "friendship", is it?



one of the big indicators of an emotional affair is "would you be comfortable if your spouse heard and saw you with your 'friend' secretly, or in other words, would you act the same if your spouse was there?

many consider dinner to be 'date-like'...

and drinking alcohol alone with them, is again, "date-like", and asking for trouble if the guy is looking to do more than 'chat'


----------



## jdawg2015

Please do not state that because you are "ordained" make you incapable of having and affair. 



Wolf1974 said:


> Nope.. My two good female friends, I married them both to their husbands... I am ordained, and still good friends with their families and we often all go out together.
> 
> You are right that you get to have imposed whatever boundry you want for you life and get to live it anyway you want. But I will be doing the same and if someone I was dating said no OSF then she would be the one who has to go.


----------



## jdawg2015

They are self admitting what we're saying. OSF brings a lot of complication and I necessary drama.

Common friends, couple friends, etc are fine.

Going out for drinks and dinner with an OSF 1:1 is way beyond societal norms.

I see more people on TAM saying it's ok than I ever see in real life. A trend to why they ended up here? Yes I think it's part of a bad mindset.

My large social circle does not have a single couple who would be doing the 1:1 thing with OSF.

I did not get cheated by my exF but she was at first very casual about OSF. And she had a history of an affair, all her friends had affairs. It's a character issue. 





notmyrealname4 said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, the gossip was that I was going to dump my bf, and perhaps marry osf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NextTimeAround said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your work buddy probably instigate and encouraged those rumors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It turned out that, yes, he did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed that some folks participating in the thread say that osf's are okay,_ as long as_:
> 
> No conversations about the more personal stuff in your romantic relationship
> 
> No going out for dinner
> 
> No trips
> 
> Don't have alcoholic drinks with them
> 
> Don't say anything with them that couldn't safely appear on the front page of a newspaper
> 
> 
> Etc, etc. But that's not much of a "friendship", is it? If you have to carefully screen out activities that are normally part of most friendships. Consider the reverse; for most hetero same sex (ss) friendships:
> 
> You confide to your ss friend that you and your SO had a fight about chore division (again), and you're feeling down about it
> 
> You get together for dinner once a week, or so
> 
> Occasionally, you may take a trip to a nearby city to see a concert with a ss friend. (Music that your SO isn't really into).
> 
> If you drink booze, almost all ss friends go out for a drink at least once a week.
> 
> You confide thoughts and ideas to your ss friends that you would *cringe* with embarrassment if they appeared on the front cover of a newspaper; even if it's something intimate, yet silly--"I believe the lost continent of Atlantis lies under the Bermuda Triangle, it acts as an underwater base for UFO's"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, if you have to police your osf's so carefully, as to avoid crossing these lines; doesn't that indicate that they are a possible source of a lot of trouble?
> 
> I realize I'm not gonna change any minds, just sharing my thoughts.
> 
> 
> @Wolf1974 you're ordained, wow, I would never have seen that coming, I didn't think you were religious at all. Fascinating.
Click to expand...


----------



## jdawg2015

You're young and explains some of your thoughts.

I am telling you right now, you'll learn the hard way. Go read the other poster saying exactly what I'm saying... the couples still married dont' give away their time or their spouses time to someone of the opposite sex. They are pairs. the go and hang out together. 

Think what you want but your "bestie" is going to cause you relationship problems. Trust me most men are not going to accept him based on how you've referred to him.

Your long term childhood friend wants to F you. Count on it.



spinsterdurga said:


> No one is asking you to put yourself in a situation that apparently makes you insecure. I'm confused. You're against OSFs yet you're saying that I don't need to ditch him? Anyway, our friendship is based on respect. I've always respected his relationship and vice versa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So he wanted to **** me since he was 7?
> 
> If there's concrete evidence of him being disrespectful to the relationship, of course I'll end our friendship. However, I won't end it because of a partner's insecurity. I've known him for 15 years so I know him more than my partner.
> 
> My friend is respectful. The funny thing is that I don't speak English with him, so a guy will have to trust what I translate since most Americans only speak English.
> 
> Lol at the last sentence!


----------



## norajane

> Going out for drinks and dinner with an OSF 1:1 is way beyond societal norms.


Maybe that's true in _your _society. Certainly not true in mine.


----------



## john117

Marc878 said:


> Ignorance is bliss until it isn't.
> 
> The most lies told are he/she is JUST a friend.
> 
> Usually starts at work, reunions, old acquaintances on Fvckbook, etc.


If that was the case I would have affairs coming out of my pockets. 

Lots of OSF's IRL and on social media, lots of cute interns at work...


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> You're young and explains some of your thoughts.
> 
> I am telling you right now, you'll learn the hard way. Go read the other poster saying exactly what I'm saying... the couples still married dont' give away their time or their spouses time to someone of the opposite sex. They are pairs. the go and hang out together.
> 
> Think what you want but your "bestie" is going to cause you relationship problems. Trust me most men are not going to accept him based on how you've referred to him.
> 
> Your long term childhood friend wants to F you. Count on it.


Ehhh... not so much. When I was growing up, my best friend was a boy. Even into college, we were still close. He married a girl we grew up with. Neither of us ever entertained the thought of hooking up, and neither of us would ever do that now. I am not anywhere near as young as @spinsterdurga, so I can honestly say, with confidence, that this does not hold true for every "bestie" OS friendship.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jdawg2015

You can take the wisdom someone is sharing or blow it off.

Um, like dude, having and building a life with a partner where you start a family, work towards life goals..... if you want to keep another guy close to you while your husband is the actual support network good luck with that.

You don't and won't get it.

I suspect you'll have to learn the hard way. If you were to ask "bestie" about if he wanted to have sex or was attracted to you I'll bet my left foot he will eventually admit it.



spinsterdurga said:


> Just because some posters agree with you doesn't mean you're right. Um I have a life now and plan to keep that even after I'm married.
> 
> What's wrong with how I've referred to him?
> 
> I disagree he doesn't.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm not after a ring. I could careless if I don't get married. If a man wants to be with me, he's going to have to accept that I had people before him in my life mad won't ditch them for him.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

Do realize how many times on TAM we have women who end up finally realizing that the long term guy friend actually was attracted after all? Even in this thread woman end up say, "Yup, I learned". Go watch the Steve Harvey link I put above. Welcome to the male brain. 

I forget the poster but after a 25 year "friendship" the guy finally spilled the beans that he was always in love with her even though they had both gone off and gotten married.

99.9% of men maintain friendship because of something they want. Or because that woman replaces something his spouse doesn't have or appear to have. 

Nothing is impossible, but the odds that your guy friend does not harbour hidden attraction is quite low.



Maricha75 said:


> Ehhh... not so much. When I was growing up, my best friend was a boy. Even into college, we were still close. He married a girl we grew up with. Neither of us ever entertained the thought of hooking up, and neither of us would ever do that now. I am not anywhere near as young as @spinsterdurga, so I can honestly say, with confidence, that this does not hold true for every "bestie" OS friendship.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## *Deidre*

Honestly, this is just me, but there's really no reason for me to be hanging out with married men, without their wives present. What's the purpose? He'd be leaving his wife behind, to hang out with me? Text me? Talk on the phone with me? 

Not saying you can't have friendships with the opposite sex once you're married, but...there's really no reason I can think of to spend my time with married men, when their wives aren't around.


----------



## jdawg2015

If you are single, it's not a problem. In a relationship if I had a gf keeping a guy friend around who was interested in her, that's a non-started. That's called cake eating. It's also seeking attention and validation. Which means you aren't relationship material.

When you enter into a relationship, you should tell your partner the full situation. But I bet you'll withhold that information right? 

"Bestie" guy friends create a problem for any guy you want to date. Even if my spider sense detects it, you are so gullible that if I were to tell you I think he's got a crush on you you'd dismiss it. Then play the whole you're jealous baloney.

Go read about how many times the "bestie" friend passively sets-up issues for the new boyfriend who comes along. He texts just a little too much, He flirts just below the limit. He makes passive comments. So the new boyfriend can't make a single disparaging comment about bestie and he has to accept and play along -or- he objects and then is called insecure or jealous. And bestie pretends as if nothing happened.

You'll learn the hard way.



spinsterdurga said:


> What's wrong with him wanting to have sex with me?


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> Do realize how many times on TAM we have women who end up finally realizing that the long term guy friend actually was attracted after all? Even in this thread woman end up say, "Yup, I learned". Go watch the Steve Harvey link I put above. Welcome to the male brain.
> 
> I forget the poster but after a 25 year "friendship" the guy finally spilled the beans that he was always in love with her even though they had both gone off and gotten married.
> 
> 99.9% of men maintain friendship because of something they want. Or because that woman replaces something his spouse doesn't have or appear to have.
> 
> Nothing is impossible, but the odds that your guy friend does not harbour hidden attraction is quite low.


And I am here to tell you, you are completely and utterly wrong about my friend. I am so confident that I would bet my own life on it... and I have no plans to die in the near future. There are very few things I am 100% confident about in this life. But this one? Absolutely. You. Are. Completely. Wrong. When it comes to my friend. I don't need to watch a video by a celebrity or anyone else for that matter. This one, I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## WonkyNinja

NextTimeAround said:


> This is the interesting irony about a socalled friend for whom you would readily dump your husband.
> 
> So while you would expect your husband to:
> 1. stop dating and having sex with other women
> 2. put up with your family members especially during precious holiday time
> 3. integrate finances, maybe you even expected your husband both before and after marriage to pay for the dating / social expenses......


That seems fine since this is the person you are dating, being intimate with and marrying.



NextTimeAround said:


> While of course, your good friend is able to:
> 1. date and have sex with whomever and whenever he pleases
> 2. is able to turn down invitations to hang out with you or you and your family
> 3. maintains his own finances; may even insist on going dutch with you......


What is the irony? You are not dating this person so his sex life, invitations and finances are none of your concern.



NextTimeAround said:


> It would still be more important to keep him in your life than your husband........
> 
> Your friend has a sweet deal. Wonder how his future wife is going to organize you into their life when she comes on the scene.......


I still don't see what the issue is. You have one relationship with your spouse and a totally different one with your friends. One involves sex and intimacy and the other doesn't. I would assume that when your friend meets his "someone special" you would be pleased for him and look forward to meeting them.


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> Your best friend is supposed to be your spouse.
> 
> I can't imagine when I was married to my wife of 20 years her *telling me her best friend was another guy*.
> 
> There are a lot of men who won't take your deal. If I'm *not my ladies number 1* then she's gone.
> 
> * honey, let me ask my best friend Mikey what he thinks about where we are going for our anniversary. Ok dear tell me if he approves. * /sarcasm
> 
> Honey I'm going to dinner tonight with my best friend Mikey don't wait up. Ok dear enjoy your date. /sarcasm
> 
> Dad, I was walking by Applebee's and I saw mom and some guy having dinner. It's ok daughter, it's just some guy friend taking mom on dinner dates. /sarcasm


I fully agree that your best friend is your spouse but that doesn't mean they are your only friend.

The examples you gave, in bold, aren't examples of a married person with a friend they are examples of a married person with no judgement of the differences between a friend and a spouse.



jdawg2015 said:


> You don't need to ditch them. But too many times I've seen "guy friend" not respect the relationship.
> 
> If a friend doesn't respect your relationship with your spouse then they aren't a friend.
> 
> 
> 
> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guys hang around women they want to fxck. Fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Not fact, your opinion. Putting the word 'Fact' at the end doesn't change anything.
> 
> Some guys see more in their OSFs than wanting to fxck them, it is possible.
Click to expand...


----------



## TRy

jdawg2015 said:


> I see more people on TAM saying it's ok than I ever see in real life. A trend to why they ended up here?


 :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
I will say it again, "I see more people on TAM saying it's ok than I ever see in real life. A trend to why they ended up here? " QFT!!!!


----------



## EllisRedding

*Deidre* said:


> Honestly, this is just me, but there's really no reason for me to be hanging out with married men, without their wives present. What's the purpose? He'd be leaving his wife behind, to hang out with me? Text me? Talk on the phone with me?
> 
> Not saying you can't have friendships with the opposite sex once you're married, but...there's really no reason I can think of to spend my time with married men, when their wives aren't around.


That is definitely where boundaries come into play, or more importantly, both people in the relationship have to be in agreement on the boundaries. 

Similar to you, I honestly couldn't imagine for instance going out to eat with a female friend solo just to hang out, and likewise wouldn't view it positively if my W wanted to go out to eat with a male friend solo (I view these as dates). 

No right or wrong though, as I mentioned, as long as both people are on the same page.


----------



## *Deidre*

jdawg2015 said:


> If you are single, it's not a problem. In a relationship if I had a gf keeping a guy friend around who was interested in her, that's a non-started. That's called cake eating. It's also seeking attention and validation. Which means you aren't relationship material.
> 
> When you enter into a relationship, you should tell your partner the full situation. But I bet you'll withhold that information right?
> 
> "Bestie" guy friends create a problem for any guy you want to date. Even if my spider sense detects it, you are so gullible that if I were to tell you I think he's got a crush on you you'd dismiss it. Then play the whole you're jealous baloney.
> 
> Go read about how many times the "bestie" friend passively sets-up issues for the new boyfriend who comes along. He texts just a little too much, He flirts just below the limit. He makes passive comments. So the new boyfriend can't make a single disparaging comment about bestie and he has to accept and play along -or- he objects and then is called insecure or jealous. And bestie pretends as if nothing happened.
> 
> You'll learn the hard way.


I dated a guy once who told it like this...''no guy wants to be just your friend. ''Friend'' is code for hanging out on the porch pretending to like that, but he's waiting for you to let him into the house.'' It went something like that lol


----------



## WonkyNinja

Rowan said:


> I would never try to tell a partner that they were not allowed to have an opposite sex friend. That said, I also would not have a relationship with a partner who *insisted on maintaining close, personal, intimate friend* relationships with members of the opposite sex. That's not about controlling them, that's about what I find I'm personally willing to tolerate in a relationship. I'd be incompatible with that person's values and outlook on life. No harm, no foul, we're just not a good match.
> 
> To me, the tolerance for opposite sex friendships in a relationship is a point of compatibility. Those who want to maintain opposite sex friendships are just basically incompatible with those who do not accept opposite sex friendships while in a committed relationship, and vice versa.


:iagree:

For me the bolded is the boundary of a friend situation.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## *Deidre*

EllisRedding said:


> That is definitely where boundaries come into play, or more importantly, both people in the relationship have to be in agreement on the boundaries.
> 
> Similar to you, I honestly couldn't imagine for instance going out to eat with a female friend solo just to hang out, and likewise wouldn't view it positively if my W wanted to go out to eat with a male friend solo (I view these as dates).
> 
> No right or wrong though, as I mentioned, as long as both people are on the same page.


Exactly. It depends on the couple for sure. But, it really points to what a person is deriving out of taking time away from their marriage, to spend it with a person of the opposite sex. Couples getting together with other couples, that's cool. Now I have a lot of guy friends, having said this, and most guys I've dated, have women as friends. It never was an issue - but the OP is talking about married people more specifically. Hanging out with married people of the opposite sex alone, when you're married or single, just seems like a bad idea.


----------



## jdawg2015

I will state it again.

Men only stay friends with women they want to fu<k. Fact.

It's men 101. 




WonkyNinja said:


> I fully agree that your best friend is your spouse but that doesn't mean they are your only friend.
> 
> The examples you gave, in bold, aren't examples of a married person with a friend they are examples of a married person with no judgement of the differences between a friend and a spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need to ditch them. But too many times I've seen "guy friend" not respect the relationship.
> 
> If a friend doesn't respect your relationship with your spouse then they aren't a friend.
> 
> 
> 
> Not fact, your opinion. Putting the word 'Fact' at the end doesn't change anything.
> 
> Some guys see more in their OSFs than wanting to fxck them, it is possible.
Click to expand...


----------



## *Deidre*

I've known a few women who are single, who are ''friends'' with married men, and they eat up the attention. The married men seem lonely in their marriages, probably having marital issues, but instead of working on those problems with their wives, they hang out with their women ''friends.'' The women friends love the attention, and feed off these men's misery. In a strange way, I can't help but wonder if these married men feel single for a moment, by hanging out with these women. That's what comes to mind when I see married people clamoring to spend time with friends of the opposite sex.


----------



## notmyrealname4

---


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> I will state it again.
> 
> Men only stay friends with women they want to fu<k. Fact.
> 
> It's men 101.


Fact. You are wrong. Not every man (or woman) fits into your (or Steve Harvey's  ) cookie cutter mold. Period.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> Mirrors what I have seen in all my years.
> 
> Tight couples don't go on dinner dates with other people.


I agree. Having lunch and going on a date, or a dinner date, are completely different things.



jdawg2015 said:


> Guys are friends with women only to hope to someday get laid. It's natural law.


My initial comment said "outside of the Bonobo kingdom it can be done" it is not natural law at all. 

If the only reason you can see to be friends with a woman is the hope that someday you will get laid then I think the boundary problem is your own. If that's all you can see in them then you seem to have a very low opinion of women.


----------



## TRy

WonkyNinja said:


> Some guys see more in their OSFs than wanting to fxck them, it is possible.


 You are right that "Some guys see more in their OSFs than wanting to fxck them, it is possible", but it is also true that some guys use being an OSF as a way to see more of an OSF that they want to fxck. The problem is that it is very difficult to tell the difference between the two, and studies show that the number of male OPS friends that secretly want to fxck their supposed "platonic friend" is high, with the relationship status of the OSF not being a factor.


----------



## *Deidre*

Truthfully, if you're married, all ''friends'' should understand that your marriage comes first. If you don't understand that, then you shouldn't be married. Now a loving spouse should not want to break up healthy friendships, but a true friend won't want to become a wedge in your marriage. If that happens, you know that person isn't really a 'friend.' Just sayin.'

I've read threads on here where people are fighting like crazy in their marriages, over an opposite sex friend. This shouldn't be happening. To allow a friend, any friend, to drive a wedge between a marriage, just seems like either a) you shouldn't be married or b) your friend isn't a friend at all. Facebook ''friends'' included. lol Many marriages are destroyed over opposite sex ''friends'' who just want to ''stay in touch.''


----------



## jdawg2015

I agree and this topic is very important yet often not discussed when people are dating and it rears its head later.

But on here when we say it's a deal breaker, people wrongfully want to paste labels of insecurity.

I'm just not going to be sitting next to my wife/gf while she texts away to her guy friend. Or do my own thing while she's out to dinner with another guy. If a woman wants that, she's not going to be in a relationship with me and I will dump her as soon as I realize she wants that kind of deal.

I do think there's a correlation to the people on here fighting. One of the posters in this thread who is a proponent of OSFs is in an OPEN freakin' marriage. Come on folks, wake up. 



EllisRedding said:


> That is definitely where boundaries come into play, or more importantly, both people in the relationship have to be in agreement on the boundaries.
> 
> Similar to you, I honestly couldn't imagine for instance going out to eat with a female friend solo just to hang out, and likewise wouldn't view it positively if my W wanted to go out to eat with a male friend solo (I view these as dates).
> 
> No right or wrong though, as I mentioned, as long as both people are on the same page.


----------



## WonkyNinja

sscygni said:


> That is likely the problem with asking this question here. A disproportionate number of people in TAM have experienced infidelity. It no doubt changes your, lets say, risk tolerance.
> 
> Sure, many affairs start with OSF's, but most OSF's do not become affairs. Why? Because it takes more than an OSF to lead to an affair. There needs to be something wrong with the relationship in the first place.
> 
> The best analogy I can think of is sweets. Some people have low self control when it comes to eating sugar. If it is around, they will eventually consume. Others have no problems maintaining self control with a house full of the stuff. If you are in the former group, it is best to avoid temptation. If not, whats the problem? If you are concerned that your partner has cravings, it is natural to feel threatened by OSFs, but the deeper question is why do they have those cravings in the first place.
> 
> For the record, I neither have nor really want an OSF at the moment, I just find the strong opinions odd.


I agree completely. 

Many of the posters take the opinion that because it happened this way once, or more, it will happen that way in every similar situation.

Saying that 60% of affairs happen with an OSF does not mean that 60% of OSFs will have an affair. If you are heterosexual and looking for an affair then it is pretty likely that you will be looking for OS.


----------



## jdawg2015

Logical fallacy.




WonkyNinja said:


> I agree. Having lunch and going on a date, or a dinner date, are completely different things.
> 
> 
> 
> My initial comment said "outside of the Bonobo kingdom it can be done" it is not natural law at all.
> 
> *If the only reason you can see to be friends with a woman is the hope that someday you will get laid then I think the boundary problem is your own. If that's all you can see in them then you seem to have a very low opinion of women*.


----------



## jdawg2015

Get your numbers right.

The 60% was in reference to workplace affairs.

Those "harmless" after work dinners and happy hours lead to a lot of bad boundaries and betrayals. But if your marriage is not that meaningful too you keep giving attention to people not your spouse. Brilliant idea!




WonkyNinja said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> Many of the posters take the opinion that because it happened this way once, or more, it will happen that way in every similar situation.
> 
> Saying that 60% of affairs happen with an OSF does not mean that 60% of OSFs will have an affair. If you are heterosexual and looking for an affair then it is pretty likely that you will be looking for OS.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Maricha75

notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, you know Maricha, beyond a shadow of a doubt, _as far as any human can know what goes on in the heart and mind of another_. So, that does leave at least a teeny-tiny chance that you might not realize it? :wink2:


In this case, no. Not even that teeny tiny chance. Like I said, I would stake my life on it. And I don't say that lightly.



notmyrealname4 said:


> IIRC, your first boyfriend ended up marrying your cousin at some point later on? If I've got you mixed up with someone else, sorry.


Yes, that is correct. I dated him when I was 15 and when I was 22, he married my cousin. His brother married her sister.



notmyrealname4 said:


> But if I'm right, then maybe your family and friends ARE a very close knit circle; so much so that family and friends are seen as the same. Do you live in a more rural area; which has that small-town feel, "everyone knows everyone" type of thing.


I did grow up in a more rural area. Oddly enough, though, I didn't view family and friends as the same. Family is family, and friends are friends. At least, the friends I grew up around in our town. Friends downstate (Detroit area), however, were more like family. And, no, they didn't live in a small town near Detroit, either lol. Still, my point is that friends in my hometown were friends, not family.



notmyrealname4 said:


> Which is wonderful (and rarer and rarer as time goes by). But your situation with your long term friend may be an outlier; and not the best example of how these situations *usually* work out.


Didn't say it wasn't "outlier". Didn't say it was the way most work out, either. I never made *that* claim, at all.



notmyrealname4 said:


> I mean all this respectfully, I'm not discounting your view. I'm just suggesting that your particular circumstances aren't usually what is going on with the osf set up.


The only thing I have said in my posts is that it doesn't *always* work out the way jdawg said. I was only refuting his assertion that it is *always* this way between men and women as friends. I know for a fact that it is not *always* this way. That was all I said.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> You're young and explains some of your thoughts.
> 
> I am telling you right now, you'll learn the hard way. Go read the other poster saying exactly what I'm saying... the couples still married dont' give away their time or their spouses time to someone of the opposite sex. They are pairs. the go and hang out together.
> 
> Think what you want but your "bestie" is going to cause you relationship problems. Trust me most men are not going to accept him based on how you've referred to him.
> 
> Your long term childhood friend wants to F you. Count on it.


If I remember correctly she is somewhere in her 20's, not some little preteen whose opinion you can just blow off due to her age. Suggesting that she must be wrong due to her youth and that your seemingly jaded prediction is the only possibility is both patronizing and insulting.

Since you don't know either her or her friend then your statement of his intent towards her has no basis whatsoever.



jdawg2015 said:


> You can take the wisdom someone is sharing or blow it off.
> 
> Um, like dude, having and building a life with a partner where you start a family, work towards life goals..... if you want to keep another guy close to you while your husband is the actual support network good luck with that.
> 
> You don't and won't get it.
> 
> I suspect you'll have to learn the hard way. If you were to ask "bestie" about if he wanted to have sex or was attracted to you I'll bet my left foot he will eventually admit it.


Many people can be friends with others for purposes other than sex but it seems that you don't and won't get it.



jdawg2015 said:


> Do realize how many times on TAM we have women who end up finally realizing that the long term guy friend actually was attracted after all? Even in this thread woman end up say, "Yup, I learned". Go watch the Steve Harvey link I put above. Welcome to the male brain.
> 
> I forget the poster but after a 25 year "friendship" the guy finally spilled the beans that he was always in love with her even though they had both gone off and gotten married.
> 
> 99.9% of men maintain friendship because of something they want. Or because that woman replaces something his spouse doesn't have or appear to have.
> 
> Nothing is impossible, but the odds that your guy friend does not harbour hidden attraction is quite low.


TAM isn't the real world, it's a board where the majority are resentful and betrayed spouses. It's rather like asking a question on gun control at the NRA convention.

There isn't anything that 99.9% of men behave or react the same way to. Making up statistics doesn't give your opinion any sort of concrete validity.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Maricha75 said:


> Fact. You are wrong. Not every man (or woman) fits into your (or Steve Harvey's  ) cookie cutter mold. Period.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


It's a sad day when Steve Harvey, the man muted on more waiting room TV's than any other and who can't read the name correctly off a card becomes a relationship expert. Actually he's probably a better one than Dr Phil.


----------



## TRy

WonkyNinja said:


> Some guys see more in their OSFs than wanting to fxck them, it is possible.


 You are right that "Some guys see more in their OSFs than wanting to fxck them, it is possible", but it is also true that some guys use being an OSF as a way to see more of an OSF that they want to fxck. The problem is that it is very difficult to tell the difference between the two, with a university study showing that the number of male OPS friends that secretly want to fxck their supposed "platonic friends" was high, with the relationship status of the other party not being a factor. This university study showed that it was common for women to be unaware that their male supposed "platonic friends" felt this way about them.


----------



## sscygni

jdawg2015 said:


> I will state it again.
> 
> Men only stay friends with women they want to fu<k. Fact.
> It's men 101.


As has been stated previously, your predilection for writing the word "Fact" after a statement of opinion does not make it true. FACT.

I understand you have been burned, and I understand that the above may well be true for YOU in your interactions with the opposite sex, but that alone does not make it a universal truth. 

What would happen in your world if you got serious with somebody with bisexual tendencies? No friends allowed at all?


----------



## sscygni

jdawg2015 said:


> Get your numbers right.
> 
> Those "harmless" after work dinners and happy hours lead to a lot of bad boundaries and betrayals. But if your marriage is not that meaningful too you keep giving attention to people not your spouse. Brilliant idea!


I am interested in what you mean when you continually bring into the conversation your aversion to having your SO spend time with or pay attention to others. You frequently don't specify OSF's in your language. Do you believe that married people should spend all of their time together? Should not have any social interaction apart from their SO? 

Do you have any male friends? Grab a beer with them after work?


----------



## jdawg2015

Of course I socialize with friends and have dinner after work.

Many of us take dive trips and road trips with our bikes.

But I don't ask Susie from the office if her and I should go out for drinks or dinner.
Group setting only.

As for hanging out when I was married to my ex we did most things as a pair when it came to socializing.

Our solo hobbies were with same sex friends. I am a triathlete and do lot of training. I also am into cars and race. None of those things are done 1:1 with women.

Kayaking? If wife was not there then done with guy friends.

Let me ask you this. Say you have a toddler at home with husband. Then he decides he wants to go over to female friends house to help her with project. That going to sit well with you?

And every time she has relationship problem she comes to him. 

There will be a point you hit that limit.



sscygni said:


> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get your numbers right.
> 
> Those "harmless" after work dinners and happy hours lead to a lot of bad boundaries and betrayals. But if your marriage is not that meaningful too you keep giving attention to people not your spouse. Brilliant idea!
> 
> 
> 
> I am interested in what you mean when you continually bring into the conversation your aversion to having your SO spend time with or pay attention to others. You frequently don't specify OSF's in your language. Do you believe that married people should spend all of their time together? Should not have any social interaction apart from their SO?
> 
> Do you have any male friends? Grab a beer with them after work?
Click to expand...


----------



## jdawg2015

And yet you can't refute what he said but what he said in that video is so spot on. He even references how women discount it and are incredulous when told guy friend actually wants to play hide the bone.

It's the way it is.

The video I posted about opposite sex friends, that women also talks about MEN having a better sense of how it works than you do. She's right.

My es FIL and MIL were married 40 years before she died of cancer. They would never have been out 1:1 with an OSF. Ever.



WonkyNinja said:


> It's a sad day when Steve Harvey, the man muted on more waiting room TV's than any other and who can't read the name correctly off a card becomes a relationship expert. Actually he's probably a better one than Dr Phil.


----------



## SunCMars

MrsAldi said:


> Before I would have agreed with you, but having had a lot of male friends, a lot of them hit on me when their relationships were going bad etc.
> Guys in work, my husband's married friends & even a gay friend who turned out to be bisexual.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


And that Folks...is the problem.

If a man is in close proximity to a women [or vice-versa] on a regular basis... they talk and enjoy each others opinions and company....things can go awry.

It is a natural phenomenon. It is a risk that monogamous partners need to avoid.

Two magnets do not attract each other if they are "Out of Range".


----------



## Wolf1974

jdawg2015 said:


> Please do not state that because you are "ordained" make you incapable of having and affair.


I didn't say that Nor would I. Character is the reasoning I will
Never have an affair
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Celes

My husband and I share great trust in each other. I couldn't imagine it being any other way. My husband is more of a homebody. I like to go out and socialize. I get along with both men and women. I've been in a male dominated field most of my career. I have often gone to lunch with male coworkers, sometimes in a group and sometimes one on one. My husband has absolutely no issue with it. I even went to a work trip with a male coworker to Las Vegas. We had dinner together. I asked my husband first to make sure he was ok with it. He thought I was being silly for even asking. 

The thing is, I am totally transparent. I don't hide anything from my husband. I've never acted inappropriately with any of these guys. None of them have behaved inappropriately with me either, or I wouldn't hang out with them. It's not an every day thing either, but once in a blue moon maybe. My husband trusts my judgment and that I'll do the right thing. I wouldn't have married him if he didn't. Ive never even dated any insecure men. I remember I went on one date with a guy in college. Next day he started asking questions about every single guy he saw me talk to or so much as wave at. There was no second date after that.


----------



## jdawg2015

Fully agree.

I've seen and heard to much with OSFs and the problems they present to ever change my position on this.




SunCMars said:


> And that Folks...is the problem.
> 
> If a man is in close proximity to a women [or vice-versa] on a regular basis... they talk and enjoy each others opinions and company....things can go awry.
> 
> It is a natural phenomenon. It is a risk that monogamous partners need to avoid.
> 
> Two magnets do not attract each other if they are "Out of Range".


----------



## jdawg2015

Not one of us would have suggested such mentality and you are mixing topics. Big difference between true insecurity and those with certain values and character. They only thing I would say is if you have a _pattern_ of boyfriends all having questions about your friends then you need to look introspectively.

If your husband is completely blasé about you going on a road trip 1:1 with another guy and not thinking about who/what/circumstances and just blindly says whatever... I'd question that. Seriously. Guess you like that your husband doesn't care what you do.... 




Celes said:


> My husband and I share great trust in each other. I couldn't imagine it being any other way. My husband is more of a homebody. I like to go out and socialize. I get along with both men and women. I've been in a male dominated field most of my career. I have often gone to lunch with male coworkers, sometimes in a group and sometimes one on one. My husband has absolutely no issue with it. I even went to a work trip with a male coworker to Las Vegas. We had dinner together. I asked my husband first to make sure he was ok with it. He thought I was being silly for even asking.
> 
> The thing is, I am totally transparent. I don't hide anything from my husband. I've never acted inappropriately with any of these guys. None of them have behaved inappropriately with me either, or I wouldn't hang out with them. It's not an every day thing either, but once in a blue moon maybe. My husband trusts my judgment and that I'll do the right thing. I wouldn't have married him if he didn't. *Ive never even dated any insecure men. I remember I went on one date with a guy in college. Next day he started asking questions about every single guy he saw me talk to or so much as wave at.* There was no second date after that.


----------



## TX-SC

I have friends of the opposite sex but they are not close friends. My wife is the same way.


----------



## jdawg2015

Fact. Heterosexual males with a penis want to use that penis. 

Without fail one or the other OSF has or does harbour sexual feeling for you.

The exceptions are rare. Such as a neighbor with an elderly neighbor, etc. Or the friend is physically/mentally disabled etc.

Ask your friend if he's every been sexually attracted to you or wants to date you.

I'm trying to imagine a time I would go hang out 1:1 with any of my friends or coworkers wives. Does not compute. And I know many of them personally but they are friends by extension. 



Maricha75 said:


> Fact. You are wrong. Not every man (or woman) fits into your (or Steve Harvey's  ) cookie cutter mold. Period.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## SunCMars

notmyrealname4 said:


> I had a workplace osf at one time.
> 
> I thought he did not view me sexually because I'm really only average looking, and at that time, kind of a toothpick physically. Plus, I had a bf. (My current H),
> 
> Well, it turned out I was wrong . And my reputation at work took a bit of a hit. I never so much as held the guys hand, but everyone was.assuming otherwise. Apparently, the gossip was that I was going to dump my bf, and perhaps marry osf.
> 
> Never again in a million years. Even if you don't think you are pretty enough, or smart enough to have that sort of effect on a random guy friend.


You may have a toothpick figure, an average face and complexion, but if you have a pretty smile and a twinkle in your eye, your pheromones will pull the handsomest moth to the flame. 

It is the chemistry and the closeness that facilitate licit and illicit relationships.

Never underestimate the luring power that is in your kind words and actions. 

Your PERCEIVED intentions may fuel OSF's fantasies and foster hope for conquest.


Oh, never forget the player who is only interested in yet another notch on his flesh pistol. They will do and say all the right things. No longer a grab-and-snatch crime...............now its grab-the-snatch and count coup.

I agree with some of the posters.....platonic friendships can safely endure. I see them occurring with certain personality types. One or both OSFs are likely cool-headed, cool-blooded and maybe......LD.

Just a thought.


----------



## southbound

There is so much reference here about respecting "boundaries." The idea is that it's ok if you respect boundaries. I don't usually think about boundaries between myself and something that isn't dangerous in the first place. I don't need boundaries with a baby kitten, but I sure as heck better respect boundaries with a full grown tiger, and even if i respect them to the best of my abilities, I'm still likely to end up as his lunch.

Just the fact that you need boundaries should speak volumes about OSFs.


----------



## foolscotton3

There is a difference between only being friends with somebody because of the possibility of sex, and only being friends with somebody you would have sex with.

I think that might be the cause of confusion.

The best analogy I can think of is this:

I'm not looking for people to fight for me or always stick up for me, because I'm not looking for trouble nor need people to fight for me as I can fight for myself, but I couldn't see myself being friends with someone If I knew that they wouldn't stick up for me.

So, for the OSF debate, sorry, I don't find unattractive-boring-females all that interesting, therefore I do not befriend unattractive-boring-females.

Also, just because I find someone sexually appealing, doesn't mean I am hoping to have sex with them.

However, I know how people, ALL PEOPLE test boundaries, ALL BOUNDARIES, and momentarily put discretions aside. Therefore I think it is best for me and my relationships to avoid the situation completely by not putting ourselves into OS friendships where those boundaries are even required.

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


----------



## Personal

jdawg2015 said:


> You're young and explains some of your thoughts.
> 
> I am telling you right now, you'll learn the hard way. Go read the other poster saying exactly what I'm saying... the couples still married dont' give away their time or their spouses time to someone of the opposite sex. They are pairs. the go and hang out together.
> 
> Think what you want but your "bestie" is going to cause you relationship problems. Trust me most men are not going to accept him based on how you've referred to him.
> 
> Your long term childhood friend wants to F you. Count on it.


Sigh,...

Being middle aged I'm not young, yet I have had other sex friends (as does my wife), all through being happily married for over 17 years to my wife who has been my monogamous sexual partner for the last 20 years.

Of my other sex friends, I have been particularly close to one of them for over 24 years (she's single with no kids as always). Until my wife and I moved from our home city 5 years ago, I would often go out one night a week with my friend to catch up, have dinner, have a drink and do some nude life drawing together (the models would be either male or female) or catch a movie or whatever and then I would usually drop her home.

When my wife and I moved I only caught up with my friend once, because we were a long way from where we once lived. Now having moved back we still catch up although less frequently since we aren't nearby anymore. Now that our kids are older and we can leave them at home without a babysitter my wife can catch up with her more often as well.

My wife has never had a problem with her or my relationship with her, to the point that when we started dating we sometimes double dated together. Likewise my wife knows that before we met I have slept in the same bed with her on one occasion 21 years ago (no euphemism just sleep no sex). While she also knows I have also had sex with another woman with her their, in her bedroom at a party 24 years ago (all of us were somewhat inebriated). My wife has also told me from the moment she met her through to now, she has seen no sexual vibe between us at all.

I simply don't want to have sex with my friend. If sex was on the cards between us, through 24 years we would have already done it by now.

As a man who has turned down all explicit offers of sex from a few different (attractive) women throughout my 20 year monogamous sexual relationship with my wife. And has also turned down some offers of sex from some women while I was single, separated and divorced. I have to say that not all men want to or will have sex with any women they know just because they can.

In your mind men and women cannot have successful faithful long term marriages if they have other sex friends. Yet in my real life I have a successful faithful long term marriage while my wife and I have other sex friend.


----------



## jdawg2015

Your activities and frequency far, far, exceed that of normal societal norms, definitely in the places I've lived.

Weekly dinner, drinks, going to the movies. Sounds more like a side girlfriend to me. I think even many of our OSF supporters on TAM would have issues with what you describe.

If your wife if ok with it and it works for you great. 

But I have to go, sigh. Why are you married if you have another women so integral into your life?

Does your wife have the same level of interaction with her male friends? Is she playing rodeo with them while you are out with your girlfriend? 



Personal said:


> Of my other sex friends, I have been particularly close to one of them for over 24 years (she's single with no kids as always). Until my wife and I moved from our home city 5 years ago, I would often go out one night a week with my friend to catch up, have dinner, have a drink and do some nude life drawing together (the models would be either male or female) or catch a movie or whatever and then I would usually drop her home.


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> Your activities and frequency far, far, exceed that of normal societal norms, definitely in the places I've lived.
> 
> Weekly dinner, drinks, going to the movies. Sounds more like a side girlfriend to me. I think even many of our OSF supporters on TAM would have issues with what you describe.
> 
> If your wife if ok with it and it works for you great.
> 
> But I have to go, sigh. Why are you married if you have another women so integral into your life?
> 
> Does your wife have the same level of interaction with her male friends? * Is she playing rodeo with them while you are out with your girlfriend?*


Where did the "playing rodeo" come from?

You seem to have this need to escalate all friendships into sexual ones to back up your arguments. I get that you don't understand how people can be friends with OS on an intellectual level but not everyone is the same as you and we don't all have to live by your rules.


----------



## Personal

jdawg2015 said:


> Your activities and frequency far, far, exceed that of normal societal norms, definitely in the places I've lived.


My wife and I follow our own path, our relationship isn't predicated upon what others choose to do.



jdawg2015 said:


> Weekly dinner, drinks, going to the movies. Sounds more like a side girlfriend to me. I think even many of our OSF supporters on TAM would have issues with what you describe.


Side girlfriend... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

If I were having sex with her, maybe. The thing is I'm not, never have, never gone there and am not interested in going there.

For a time it was weekly because my friend likes drawing and painting as well (as noted in my previous post), at other times it is less frequent. Sometimes we don't chat for a few months, sometimes we chat a few times a week and on and on etc.

In your mind, it must be so nefarious for someone to catch up after work at a pub grab a feed have a glass of something, then do some life drawing with a group who all pitch in for a model for a couple of hours with a friend, then drop that friend home once it's over all in the time it takes to do exactly that. All while for the rest of that week, they then date their spouse through two weeknights plus through almost all of the weekend as well while having sex with that spouse 4-6x or more a week and also walking together for 30 minutes through to an hour on most evenings.

It really isn't a big deal at all.



jdawg2015 said:


> If your wife if ok with it and it works for you great.


It is great, we have both chosen well.



jdawg2015 said:


> But I have to go, sigh. Why are you married if you have another women so integral into your life?


My friend is no more or less integral than one of my other close male friends from school and a few other male friends from my former military service.

We are married because we love each other, enjoy each others company, enjoy having lots of sex together, and wish to share our lives with each other.

That said neither of us desire to be attached to the hip, wear matching clothes and do absolutely every single thing together all of the time.



jdawg2015 said:


> Does your wife have the same level of interaction with her male friends?


No she doesn't only because she isn't as close to them, that said on occasion my wife will sometimes catch up with male friends in my absence for lunch though.



jdawg2015 said:


> Is she playing rodeo with them while you are out with your girlfriend?


No she isn't. Generally my wife had been at home looking after the kids on the occasions I caught up with any of my friends male or female. Which also applied to her with respect to her friends as well. 

Now that the kids are older and don't require parental supervision all of the time, we are both now able to catch up with those same friends as a couple more often than not.

With the exceptions being when we are not interested in an activity, like when my wife recently saw Gloria Steinem talk and I caught up with her after that event. Or since I am an accomplished illustrator and enjoy doing life drawing, my wife will not come with me because she has no interest in drawing or painting.


----------



## NextTimeAround

One problem with women being friends with men including married men is not that they want to have sex with the guy, quite often far from it.

It's that they like the one upmanship that goes with being some married man's bestie. That they know,they think, in any case, the man better than his wife does; that, as some women will say, he treats her better than he does his wife; and, so on; and then takes pleasure in treating the wife like some kind of irritation, either major or minor.

If you don't believe that this attitude is possible, then just read this thread here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...481-female-refuses-let-male-have-friends.html


----------



## jdawg2015

It's in the same vein of playing the insecure and jealous card. See how it works?



WonkyNinja said:


> Where did the "playing rodeo" come from?
> 
> You seem to have this need to escalate all friendships into sexual ones to back up your arguments. I get that you don't understand how people can be friends with OS on an intellectual level but not everyone is the same as you and we don't all have to live by your rules.


----------



## jdawg2015

And then we end up with a spouse on TAM on here complaining about how their partner has a friend that's creating a rift in the relationship.

Rinse. Lather. Repeat.



NextTimeAround said:


> One problem with women being friends with men including married men is not that they want to have sex with the guy, quite often far from it.
> 
> It's that they like the one upmanship that goes with being some married man's bestie. That they know,they think, in any case, the man better than his wife does; that, as some women will say, he treats her better than he does his wife; and, so on; and then takes pleasure in treating the wife like some kind of irritation, either major or minor.
> 
> If you don't believe that this attitude is possible, then just read this thread here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...481-female-refuses-let-male-have-friends.html


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> Fact. Heterosexual males with a penis want to use that penis.
> 
> Without fail one or the other OSF has or does harbour sexual feeling for you.
> 
> The exceptions are rare. Such as a neighbor with an elderly neighbor, etc. Or the friend is physically/mentally disabled etc.
> 
> Ask your friend if he's every been sexually attracted to you or wants to date you.
> 
> I'm trying to imagine a time I would go hang out 1:1 with any of my friends or coworkers wives. Does not compute. And I know many of them personally but they are friends by extension.


Well, here's the problem. You already told @Wolf1974 that being a pastor/minister/priest (etc) does not exclude someone from this. I am telling you, flat out that there are men, whether clergy or not, who do not harbor those feelings towards their opposite sex friends. You even have *men* on this thread, telling you the exact same thing. Just because *you* are this way, doesn't mean every single man on the planet fits your little mold. Yes, my friend is a pastor. Yes, I understand that does not mean, in and of itself, that he does not harbor such feelings for me, nor any other woman. However, I reiterate, I know him better than you do. He never wanted to have sex worn me, nor I with him. Now, I don't do things one-on-one with him, nor any other man. Not because I believe they want to have sex with me, but because people like you will jump to *that* conclusion. It is to avoid the *appearance* of impropriety, nothing more. And it is because people like you insist one *always* wants to have sex with the other. You are wrong. Period.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## The Middleman

> On Spending Time With the Opposite Sex
> 
> Home » Blog » Culture » On Spending Time With the Opposite Sex 30/11/2012 | Culture
> 
> I don’t believe men and women in relationships should spend much time with people of the opposite sex. It sounds very 1950s, but it isn’t. Let me explain.
> 
> I think humans are designed to fall in love with each other. Quickly. We’re geared to be around someone in the clan or village who smiles nicely, who you share a joke or two with, or who you see getting upset or excited about something, and you bond. Instantly.
> 
> We do this because that bond quickly leads to courtship, and that quickly leads to babies. This is good because humanity doesn’t die. We’ll put that in the plus column. Basically, our genes want to survive, so they make us grow attracted to almost anyone around us with blinding speed.
> 
> The way this materializes today is you’ll have your girlfriend or wife hanging out with some guy in a very harmless way, and after a few days of this she’ll start bringing up this other person constantly in conversation:
> 
> Jason thinks…
> 
> Whoa. Jason? Who’s Jason? Oh, just this guy. This happens once, great. A few times, no issue. But soon it becomes apparent that this other human is basically imprinting his essence onto your woman, just through casual conversation and getting to know each other. And it has nothing to do with him, or with her. They’re both great people.
> 
> But if you were to be sent to Madagascar for nine months on a job while they “just hung out”, this would soon be a problem. And the more personal they were with each other, i.e. work drama, family drama, etc–again, all harmless–the faster it will happen.
> 
> This is how “forbidden love” forms, where a guy falls in love with his girlfriend’s friend. They just hang out too much. He’s pretty cool. She’s pretty cool. And they just bond because that’s what people do. The problem was thinking it was ok for them to interact that much in the first place. That has an expected outcome.
> 
> Some people believe everyone is trying to shag everyone else, so you have to lock up your girl and your man. That’s not it. That’s defensive and insecure and juvenile.
> 
> The problem is precisely that it’s not intentional. It sneaks up on you because that’s what it’s supposed to do. It’s a human instinct to bond with people of the opposite sex who are near to you, and to do it very quickly. And the deeper the exposure, the quicker the bond.
> 
> This is why the best pickup lines in the world are based around,
> 
> Tell me your problems…I’ll just listen.
> 
> It’s intimate. It forms bonds within minutes. It’ll seem like a simple conversation, and then the victim will find herself thinking about him constantly until the spell wears off.
> 
> It’s also why movie stars can’t stay committed. They leave their loved ones and go of on some exotic trip with another movie star, and then go through extremely emotional acting scenes with them–for weeks at a time. And they wonder why they suddenly fall in love with them. If you were on a remote island with a movie start (or anyone else) doing acting scenes with them, you’d do the same thing.
> 
> So, when my girl says she wants to go learn some kind of intimate dancing style (her girlfriend is into it), the answer is simple: we do it together or we don’t do it. It’s not because she’s untrustworthy (she’s extremely honest and loyal); it’s because she’s a girl, and rubbing crotches and laying your head on another man’s chest for hours per week while learning a physical skill is bad for current relationships.
> 
> I told her I’d learn the dance as well, but not with another female partner. Why? Because talking to that girl, and having her rub her stuff all on me, would instantly get me thinking things I shouldn’t. I know this. I’m aware of it. So I defend against it by limiting contact. Brain over…well, just use your brain.
> 
> So what’s the takeaway?
> 
> Simple: be aware of the time your SO spends with other women/men. Notice the level of intimacy in the communication. Monitor for signs that the other person is on their mind. And if it becomes obvious that this person is bonding with him/her, pull it back. It really is that simple.
> 
> Don’t go ape **** if he mentions that this girl at work likes the song that’s playing. And if your girl mentions some guy at work, or wants to go hang with friends and there are guys there–no problem. Even if the guys are single and probably going to pursue her.
> 
> No sweat. If you’re not insecure and she’s a good woman, there’s nothing at all to stress. Don’t become a bloody neanderthal.
> 
> Just watch for multiple/constant interactions with people of the other gender. Don’t spend lots of time with your friends’ smart, attractive partners, for example. And don’t rely on trust when your SO is spending more and more alone time with “just a friend”. They won’t make a mistake, the mistake will happen to them.
> 
> Respect the evolutionary biology, and don’t be surprised by natural outcomes you have all the tools to anticipate. That’s all I’m saying.


https://danielmiessler.com/blog/on-spending-time-with-the-opposite-sex/


----------



## NextTimeAround

Maricha75 said:


> Well, here's the problem. You already told @Wolf1974 that being a pastor/minister/priest (etc) does not exclude someone from this. I am telling you, flat out that there are men, whether clergy or not, who do not harbor those feelings towards their opposite sex friends. You even have *men* on this thread, telling you the exact same thing. Just because *you* are this way, doesn't mean every single man on the planet fits your little mold. Yes, my friend is a pastor. Yes, I understand that does not mean, in and of itself, that he does not harbor such feelings for me, nor any other woman. However, I reiterate, I know him better than you do. He never wanted to have sex worn me, nor I with him. Now, I don't do things one-on-one with him, nor any other man. Not because I believe they want to have sex with me, but because people like you will jump to *that* conclusion. It is to avoid the *appearance* of impropriety, nothing more. And it is because people like you insist one *always* wants to have sex with the other. You are wrong. Period.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Our minister was married when he had sex and a baby out of wedlock.


----------



## Maricha75

NextTimeAround said:


> Our minister was married when he had sex and a baby out of wedlock.


Point being? Again, I will state it. Not everyone conforms to this mold. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> Well, here's the problem. You already told @Wolf1974 that being a pastor/minister/priest (etc) does not exclude someone from this. I am telling you, flat out that there are men, whether clergy or not, who do not harbor those feelings towards their opposite sex friends. You even have *men* on this thread, telling you the exact same thing. Just because *you* are this way, doesn't mean every single man on the planet fits your little mold. Yes, my friend is a pastor. Yes, I understand that does not mean, in and of itself, that he does not harbor such feelings for me, nor any other woman. However, I reiterate, I know him better than you do. He never wanted to have sex worn me, nor I with him. Now, I don't do things one-on-one with him, nor any other man. Not because I believe they want to have sex with me, but because people like you will jump to *that* conclusion. It is to avoid the *appearance* of impropriety, nothing more. And it is because people like you insist one *always* wants to have sex with the other. You are wrong. Period.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I do need to set the record straight. I am no pastor or priest. I was ordained online only to perform marriage ceremonies in the state of Colorado. Have no religious affiliation and is ceremonial only. Both my friends are also non religious so this worked. Hell in this state you can marry yourselves as odd as that sounds lol. Character is why I wouldn't cheat and never have.

And really I have looked at it this way. Friends with the opposite sex means friends to their marriages and relationships which I respect. If I was sexually attracted to them I would be their friend at all. I just don't view them that way.


----------



## Maricha75

Wolf1974 said:


> I do need to set the record straight. I am no pastor or priest. I was ordained online only to perform marriage ceremonies in the state of Colorado. Have no religious affiliation and is ceremonial only. Both my friends are also non religious so this worked. Hell in this state you can marry yourselves as odd as that sounds lol. Character is why I wouldn't cheat and never have.
> 
> And really I have looked at it this way. Friends with the opposite sex means friends to their marriages and relationships which I respect. If I was sexually attracted to them I would be their friend at all. I just don't view them that way.


Wolf, my only reason for mentioning you in that regard was because jdawg said it in the first place. Of course I know that *some* ministers have affairs. And of course I know *some* men cannot be around women without having sexual thoughts about them. And I also know that these two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However, I also know that *some* men have the integrity not to act on those thoughts, just as I know for *some* men, those thoughts don't even enter into their heads. As with everything else, when it comes to human interaction, there are *always* exceptions to what most perceive to be the "norm". And, just because one man always wants sex with any woman with whom he regularly interacts, does not mean every man is like him... no matter how much he wishes it to be so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> Wolf, my only reason for mentioning you in that regard was because jdawg said it in the first place. Of course I know that *some* ministers have affairs. And of course I know *some* men cannot be around women without having sexual thoughts about them. And I also know that these two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However, I also know that *some* men have the integrity not to act on those thoughts, just as I know for *some* men, those thoughts don't even enter into their heads. As with everything else, when it comes to human interaction, there are *always* exceptions to what most perceive to be the "norm". And, just because one man always wants sex with any woman with whom he regularly interacts, does not mean every man is like him... no matter how much he wishes it to be so.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I know and I agree with you. I just didn't want people thinking I am a pastor or a minister when on this same website I have talked about my sorted past lol :wink2:


This is one of the TAM arguments that constantly goes around and around here that is most amusing. You have two opposing views and neither of us are going to change the others mind. What I find amusing is that while I know what I believe and what boundrys I will have I am OK with others having a different viewpoint. But their always seems to be one or two posters on the other side who want to make this so personal and tell you how wrong you are lol. Always amusing 

If my honest viewpoint was I wanted to sleep with every female on the planet I guess I couldn't be friends with them, but I don't, so It has never been an issue


----------



## Married but Happy

I have OSF whom I find sexually attractive, even spend time alone with them, and I have chosen not to do anything and continue to CHOOSE not to act on the attraction or even flirt with them. I have boundaries, self-control, and ethics, and also do not wish for a friend to be the slightest bit uncomfortable around me, because I value the shared intellectual interests and activities. Even in my first marriage where I had LOTS of motivation to cheat on my ex, I didn't, and I had attractive OSF then, too. They have no idea, and I would have no difficulty turning them down if they made a move on me, either. Some people can't do this (obviously, some who even preach the high ground without ever attaining it) - I understand that, and for those people different boundaries may be appropriate. But I'm not them, and my wife is like me in her ability to keep platonic friendships platonic.


----------



## jdawg2015

You mean the posters who call other posters jealous and insecure for having more conservative values are the ones making it personal, right?

Thought so.



Wolf1974 said:


> Maricha75 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wolf, my only reason for mentioning you in that regard was because jdawg said it in the first place. Of course I know that *some* ministers have affairs. And of course I know *some* men cannot be around women without having sexual thoughts about them. And I also know that these two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. However, I also know that *some* men have the integrity not to act on those thoughts, just as I know for *some* men, those thoughts don't even enter into their heads. As with everything else, when it comes to human interaction, there are *always* exceptions to what most perceive to be the "norm". And, just because one man always wants sex with any woman with whom he regularly interacts, does not mean every man is like him... no matter how much he wishes it to be so.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> I know and I agree with you. I just didn't want people thinking I am a pastor or a minister when on this same website I have talked about my sorted past lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the TAM arguments that constantly goes around and around here that is most amusing. You have two opposing views and neither of us are going to change the others mind. What I find amusing is that while I know what I believe and what boundrys I will have I am OK with others having a different viewpoint. But their always seems to be one or two posters on the other side who want to make this so personal and tell you how wrong you are lol. Always amusing
> 
> If my honest viewpoint was I wanted to sleep with every female on the planet I guess I couldn't be friends with them, but I don't, so It has never been an issue
Click to expand...


----------



## jdawg2015

And this is precisely the type of person you should NOT be associating with. It means you are testing boundaries every time. In fact these are specifically. I also have self control but a woman I am sexually or emotionally attached too, IMO, would be totally disrespecting of the relationship to continue associating with that person. 

You are also in an open marriage and most of what you do in your marriage is not applicable to what people view as a marriage by having sex with someone other than your spouse....
Personally I find that lifestyle repulsive. It's your life, but my opinion.



Married but Happy said:


> I have OSF whom I find sexually attractive, even spend time alone with them, and I have chosen not to do anything and continue to CHOOSE not to act on the attraction or even flirt with them. I have boundaries, self-control, and ethics, and also do not wish for a friend to be the slightest bit uncomfortable around me, because I value the shared intellectual interests and activities. Even in my first marriage where I had LOTS of motivation to cheat on my ex, I didn't, and I had attractive OSF then, too. They have no idea, and I would have no difficulty turning them down if they made a move on me, either. Some people can't do this (obviously, some who even preach the high ground without ever attaining it) - I understand that, and for those people different boundaries may be appropriate. But I'm not them, and my wife is like me in her ability to keep platonic friendships platonic.


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> I will state it again.
> 
> Men only stay friends with women they want to fu<k. Fact.
> 
> It's men 101.


I am a man. Its not true for me. Therefore it cannot be a universal truth.

Why don't you repeat it a few dozen times more and see if it suddenly becomes true. In the absence of any real evidence, that seems like your best shot


----------



## jdawg2015

And since the majority of men don't do or act like you I stand by the FACT that it's atypical behavior.

Call it what you want but most women I know won't put up with their man going on dinner dates with other women. FACT.

It's like trying to deny the truth that the vast majority of married couples do not do some of the behavior highlighted on TAM. 




Wazza said:


> I am a man. Its not true for me. Therefore it cannot be a universal truth.
> 
> Why don't you repeat it a few dozen times more and see if it suddenly becomes true. In the absence of any real evidence, that seems like your best shot


----------



## southbound

Maybe it's a cultural thing. I can certainly say that people having OSFs to the point that they go out together is not done where I'm from. I don't know anybody that does it. It would be the weirdest thing to see a married man in a restaurant with another woman.

I have women that i consider friends. I've worked with one married lady for 20 years and we get along great, but we don't go to the movies together or go out and eat together. I don't go over and keep her company when her husband is on a business trip. I don't call her to chat and have laughs, because all that would just seem inappropriate. 

I wonder if most people's OSF is an attractive person by most people's standards? If I had to guess, I'd say yes. I doubt any man has a smoking hot wife, but also has an OSF that he enjoys spending time with that is hideous. 

I can't understand why a person who is married to someone they are in love with and care about would even want an OSF that close. It's not always about trust or sex. I heard a lady once say that she didn't worry about her husband having an affair just because he talked with other women, but she said what bothered her was that he could have more laughs and look like he's enjoying himself more in 10 minutes with some women than he does her in a month. That can lead to resentment. 

Let's say for the sake of argument that an affair won't happen. Is sex the only thing that separates a marriage from friends anyway? When I was married, I always saved all the dinners out, movies, laughs and good times for my wife, not divide it with other women. Anytime you are out with an OSF, you could be enjoying time with your wife. 

For those who claim they have had OSFs for years and things have been ok, well, I'll take your word for it, but it reminds me of stories i see sometimes about "unlikely animal friends" where, for some unknown reason, a lion has befriended an antelope. It looks all cute and cuddly, but it is so unusual that it also makes one cringe, and one has to wonder at what point the lion will decide it's snack time.


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> And since the majority of men don't do or act like you I stand by the FACT that it's atypical behavior.
> 
> Call it what you want but most women I know won't put up with their man going on dinner dates with other women. FACT.
> 
> It's like trying to deny the truth that the vast majority of married couples do not do some of the behavior highlighted on TAM.


See, now you're changing what you were saying. Before, you were adamant that *all* men do this, and even cited a Steve Harvey video to make your point. The only thing some of us have been saying is what you just said above. The majority may have this problem, but there are *some* who don't. That's all. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> And since the majority of men don't do or act like you I stand by the FACT that it's atypical behavior.
> 
> Call it what you want but most women I know won't put up with their man going on dinner dates with other women. FACT.
> 
> It's like trying to deny the truth that the vast majority of married couples do not do some of the behavior highlighted on TAM.


So it's gone from "all" to "the majority". Nice to get that concession but it is still an unproven assertion.

I think you and I agree that boundaries are necessary with members of the opposite sex, and I have no problem with your boundaries, for you. Different boundaries seem to work ok for me.

But if it makes you feel better, I've not done a dinner date with an OSF.


----------



## Celes

jdawg2015 said:


> Not one of us would have suggested such mentality and you are mixing topics. Big difference between true insecurity and those with certain values and character. They only thing I would say is if you have a _pattern_ of boyfriends all having questions about your friends then you need to look introspectively.
> 
> If your husband is completely blasé about you going on a road trip 1:1 with another guy and not thinking about who/what/circumstances and just blindly says whatever... I'd question that. Seriously. Guess you like that your husband doesn't care what you do....


I like that my husband is a very confident and secure man. I find it very sexy. He's not a man who fears anything, and he certainly doesn't fear I will cheat. Not that he wouldn't be hurt if I did, he's just not afraid I'll do it. It's not that he doesn't care what I do, he knows I'm head over heels for him and he trusts me. He also knows that people who want to cheat will find a way to cheat, so why bother trying to chain me to the kitchen. Jealousy does not equate to care or love, contrary to what you believe. My husband is a very logical man and it's why I married him. I don't do well with overly emotional, clingy men. It's just an instant turn off for me.


----------



## Married but Happy

jdawg2015 said:


> And this is precisely the type of person you should NOT be associating with. It means you are testing boundaries every time. In fact these are specifically. I also have self control but a woman I am sexually or emotionally attached too, IMO, would be totally disrespecting of the relationship to continue associating with that person.
> 
> You are also in an open marriage and most of what you do in your marriage is not applicable to what people view as a marriage by having sex with someone other than your spouse....
> Personally I find that lifestyle repulsive. It's your life, but my opinion.


My open marriage is irrelevant to this discussion, and has no bearing on my platonic OSFs. 

FYI, boundaries are not being tested - they just exist and are observed.

And, while you could completely trust me with your wife or gf (whether or not you trust them!), your lack of ability to handle an OSF implies that you could not be trusted to have an OSF with my wife. It's good that you know you need more restrictive boundaries - you need them.


----------



## jdawg2015

Yes, ALL men with the exceptions I gave. I'll even go so far as to call some men liars.

Vast majority, ALL, parse and play semantics. But far, far, far, majority of men, 99.9% of us will not go to dinner, hang-out, or socialize with women we are not attracted too.

It's not just me. This conversation has been had so many times in my life well before I knew what TAM was.

Think about all the caveats even the pro OSF friends throw out about boundaries.

I've been in the military, three degree programs, lived in numerous countries. Not in any single case have I met a person who's wife or husband goes out 1:1 with their OSF buddy. And the vast majorority of my social network are married, most long term.

I have a very good data sample. I just know for me it's a deal breaker.



Maricha75 said:


> See, now you're changing what you were saying. Before, you were adamant that *all* men do this, and even cited a Steve Harvey video to make your point. The only thing some of us have been saying is what you just said above. The majority may have this problem, but there are *some* who don't. That's all.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

southbound said:


> I wonder if most people's OSF is an attractive person by most people's standards? If I had to guess, I'd say yes. I doubt any man has a smoking hot wife, but also has an OSF that he enjoys spending time with that is hideous.


I actually don't care where my friends are on the attractiveness scale. I guess if I was sizing up people like that I would have to do things differently.


----------



## jdawg2015

I'm wise enough to know that someone I find attractive, with enough time and socializing can become an issue when in a . Time and proximity with someone not my partner is not my cup a tea. Obviously I have self-control. But I've also been around the World too many times to watch how one glass too many and even the stongest of wills end up getting broken and marriages ruined. I have watch guys you'd never ever think would cheat and up in doing so. I'd rather stay away from risk rather than testing it.

Every time you hand out with your lady friend you want to shag is tempting fate. Right mixture and problem... Say what you want as I've watched it time after time after time.

As for your wife and knowing her alternative lifestyle could not be a bigger turnoff. You can have her. I'm curious, do you or your wife have sex with married people who are cheating on their spouse?



Married but Happy said:


> My open marriage is irrelevant to this discussion, and has no bearing on my platonic OSFs.
> 
> FYI, boundaries are not being tested - they just exist and are observed.
> 
> And, while you could completely trust me with your wife or gf (whether or not you trust them!), your lack of ability to handle an OSF implies that you could not be trusted to have an OSF with my wife. It's good that you know you need more restrictive boundaries - you need them.


----------



## jdawg2015

wazza, I'm having to really refrain from being blunt.

But your description has me wondering if you are a nerdy or Steve Urkle/feminine type of guy?

My friends are all more on the alpha side. Not trying to bash you but your "I just want to pal around with women" as friends rings a bit on the feminine side.

Not ONE of my friends does or would every say what you say.....



Wazza said:


> I actually don't care where my friends are on the attractiveness scale. I guess if I was sizing up people like that I would have to do things differently.


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> Yes, ALL men with the exceptions I gave. I'll even go so far as to call some men liars.
> 
> Vast majority, ALL, parse and play semantics. But far, far, far, majority of men, 99.9% of us will not go to dinner, hang-out, or socialize with women we are not attracted too.
> 
> It's not just me. This conversation has been had so many times in my life well before I knew what TAM was.
> 
> Think about all the caveats even the pro OSF friends throw out about boundaries.
> 
> I've been in the military, three degree programs, lived in numerous countries. Not in any single case have I met a person who's wife or husband goes out 1:1 with their OSF buddy. And the vast majorority of my social network are married, most long term.




For crying out loud, jdawg, just give it up already! You have already conceded that it isn't *all* men, but a majority. No one is even arguing about the word *majority* either. I disagree with your arbitrary "99.9%", though. Maybe 95%, but I certainly disagree that only 0.1%of men fall outside your mold. 

So, I guess my next question is who you believe to be liars...you know, the "I'll even go so far as to call some men liars."... who is lying? Oh, let me guess, the men who don't want to have sex with their friends, right? 



jdawg2015 said:


> I have a very good data sample. *I just know for me it's a deal breaker.*


And that's fine... for you. But you are not the entire population of the world. You have your boundaries, others have theirs. 

Fwiw, I do know men who think the way you do. And those are the men I *completely* avoid being alone with, for any reason. One was a neighbor of my parents a few years ago. I completely avoided him, as much as possible. 

I trust my own neighbor. I have done school related things with him, at the school our kids attend. He doesn't have a license and his wife just had a baby two weeks ago. He needed either me or another neighbor to drive him to the store to do their grocery shopping yesterday. I declined. Not because I don't trust him, but because it would be awkward, shopping with another woman's husband. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

Commenting on some of your items.... (It was an interesting list)



notmyrealname4 said:


> You confide to your ss friend that you and your SO had a fight about chore division (again), and you're feeling down about it


Not something I talk about, I don't let off steam in that way.



notmyrealname4 said:


> Occasionally, you may take a trip to a nearby city to see a concert with a ss friend. (Music that your SO isn't really into).


If it's just a concert, I wouldn't see a problem. Staying over is not something I would rush to do.



notmyrealname4 said:


> If you drink booze, almost all ss friends go out for a drink at least once a week.


I drink, but I never go out to a bar just to drink, and I wouldn't drink in public to the point where it affected me. Lots of my friends are the same. We would go out for a meal and may have a drink with the meal.



notmyrealname4 said:


> You confide thoughts and ideas to your ss friends that you would *cringe* with embarrassment if they appeared on the front cover of a newspaper; even if it's something intimate, yet silly--"I believe the lost continent of Atlantis lies under the Bermuda Triangle, it acts as an underwater base for UFO's":nerd:


I wouldn't be hung up on something like that. My good friends know me, and I don't feel much need to hide myself around them.

Might is be that we hang around with people who are more or less like us? Therefore when Jdawg says "All my friends do (whatever)" or you say "Almost all ss friends go out for a drink" it's true for the people you hang out with?


----------



## jdawg2015

LOL, you just stated my position in the last paragraph and conceded that the vast majority of men and women if left to hang out a lot creates problems. Both real and perceived.

Yet you want to needle if there is really much difference between 95% or 99.9%. OMFG.


It's the freaking overwhelming lion's share of men. Fact. As I said before. Your post confirms what I've been saying.. Thanks.



Maricha75 said:


> For crying out loud, jdawg, just give it up already! You have already conceded that it isn't *all* men, but a majority. No one is even arguing about the word *majority* either. I disagree with your arbitrary "99.9%", though. Maybe 95%, but I certainly disagree that only 0.1%of men fall outside your mold.
> 
> So, I guess my next question is who you believe to be liars...you know, the "I'll even go so far as to call some men liars."... who is lying? Oh, let me guess, the men who don't want to have sex with their friends, right?
> 
> 
> 
> And that's fine... for you. But you are not the entire population of the world. You have your boundaries, others have theirs.
> 
> Fwiw, I do know men who think the way you do. And those are the men I *completely* avoid being alone with, for any reason. One was a neighbor of my parents a few years ago. I completely avoided him, as much as possible.
> 
> I trust my own neighbor. I have done school related things with him, at the school our kids attend. He doesn't have a license and his wife just had a baby two weeks ago. He needed either me or another neighbor to drive him to the store to do their grocery shopping yesterday. I declined. Not because I don't trust him, but because it would be awkward, shopping with another woman's husband.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk

Married but Happy said:


> My open marriage is irrelevant to this discussion, and has no bearing on my platonic OSFs.
> 
> FYI, boundaries are not being tested - they just exist and are observed.
> 
> And, while you could completely trust me with your wife or gf (whether or not you trust them!), your lack of ability to handle an OSF implies that you could not be trusted to have an OSF with my wife. It's good that you know you need more restrictive boundaries - you need them.


Too simplistic. 

When my wife and I were dating, she had an OSF that I was cool with. We got into a fight, and who hit on her as soon as he found out? That guy.

Who, as it turned out, was just waiting in the wings. 

And the OSF doesn't even have to be doing it intentionally. Let's say boy and girl are friends, both in LTRs with other people. They both get into a fight at the same time, and commiserate together. 

What could possibly go wrong, right?


----------



## jdawg2015

marduk, it's precisely how these things go down.....

And guy friend can have YEARS to listen to all the things she wants to hear and knows exactly what tune to sing.

Taking a women who has a close guy friend is probably the worst deal any man would take. It's like walking in a minefield.



marduk said:


> Too simplistic.
> 
> When my wife and I were dating, she had an OSF that I was cool with. We got into a fight, and who hit on her as soon as he found out? That guy.
> 
> Who, as it turned out, was just waiting in the wings.
> 
> And the OSF doesn't even have to be doing it intentionally. Let's say boy and girl are friends, both in LTRs with other people. They both get into a fight at the same time, and commiserate together.
> 
> What could possibly go wrong, right?


----------



## Married but Happy

jdawg2015 said:


> I'm wise enough to know that someone I find attractive, with enough time and socializing can become an issue when in a . Time and proximity with someone not my partner is not my cup a tea. Obviously I have self-control. But I've also been around the World too many times to watch how one glass too many and even the stongest of wills end up getting broken and marriages ruined. I have watch guys you'd never ever think would cheat and up in doing so. I'd rather stay away from risk rather than testing it.
> 
> Every time you hand out with your lady friend you want to shag is tempting fate. Right mixture and problem... Say what you want as I've watched it time after time after time.
> 
> As for your wife and knowing her alternative lifestyle could not be a bigger turnoff. You can have her. I'm curious, do you or your wife have sex with married people who are cheating on their spouse?


You're wise enough to know that you can't do it. I'm wise enough to know when to distance myself if necessary. Most women who are sufficiently interesting and intelligent to be friends with are usually attractive because of those traits, and some are physically attractive, too. Just because it's (remotely) possible that something inappropriate could occur, isn't sufficient reason to ostracize half of the human race as potential friends. It's far more risky to drive to work every day than have an OSF - and the consequences may be far more severe, too, IMO.

As I said earlier, we have strong ethics, so no, we don't get involved with anyone cheating on their spouse. Even asking that just shows me how much of an a**hole you are.


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> LOL, you just stated my position in the last paragraph and conceded that the vast majority of men and women if left to hang out a lot creates problems. Both real and perceived.
> 
> Yet you want to needle if there is really much difference between 95% or 99.9%. OMFG.
> 
> 
> It's the freaking overwhelming lion's share of men. Fact. As I said before. Your post confirms what I've been saying.. Thanks.


No. You were *adamant* that **ALL** men were like this. The *only* thing I have said is that you are wrong that *all* men think this way. I never once said that the majority don't. Only that *all* don't. No matter the percentage, 100% is not "majority" or "vast majority". 100% is all. 100% is what you were adamantly stating until the last page or two. NOW, you are suddenly changing your position to "vast majority". So, in reality, you have conceded to *my* position. I gave an arbitrary 95% to throw you a bone. In reality, I do not believe it is even that high, but the percentage means nothing to me. The only thing that matters, now, is that you have been proven wrong... wrong because you originally stated *all* not *majority/vast majority*. And the funny part about that is you will not actually say "You are correct. Not all men think the way I do." Instead, you try to pretend that type position, all along, was that it is the majority of men. Lol to many read your earlier posts, jdawg. They know better. Just give it up already. 

ETA: And as for my last paragraph, you assumed I was saying that it would be awkward shopping with my neighbor because "he wants to have sex with me/all his female friends" :rofl: No, it was because I have no idea what they like to eat, and I *hate* driving. I hate it whether it's with my husband, my dad, my sisters, or a neighbor. In fact, I hate it so much, if I had a car, I would ask a friend to drive, rather than myself. That is why it would be awkward for me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> wazza, I'm having to really refrain from being blunt.
> 
> But your description has me wondering if you are a nerdy or Steve Urkle/feminine type of guy?
> 
> My friends are all more on the alpha side. Not trying to bash you but your "I just want to pal around with women" as friends rings a bit on the feminine side.
> 
> Not ONE of my friends does or would every say what you say.....


I'm glad you are refraining from being blunt. :grin2:

You have not correctly understood me, and I am not that unusual. Corollary - your experience of people may not be as broad as it needs to be before you can assert your values as universally applicable truths.

I'm glad they work for you though.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Goodness... there is nothing wrong with recognizing attractive people are attractive, it doesn't make one a creep (male or female).

It's all about respect, boundaries, and self-discipline... one is never a product of circumstances, use it or lose it.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

Using boundaries is what is highly recommend, not just for me but I would warn others that the longer you hang around a fire eventually you risk getting burned.

Too much time and proximity

Your car accident comparison is a strawman argument and a very poor analogy.

Even in a car, you can go the speed limit or slow down in bad weather to reduce risk. Or you can speed and still get to the same destination. I prefer the former to the latter..... 



Married but Happy said:


> You're wise enough to know that you can't do it. I'm wise enough to know when to distance myself if necessary. Most women who are sufficiently interesting and intelligent to be friends with are usually attractive because of those traits, and some are physically attractive, too. Just because it's (remotely) possible that something inappropriate could occur, isn't sufficient reason to ostracize half of the human race as potential friends. It's far more risky to drive to work every day than have an OSF - and the consequences may be far more severe, too, IMO.
> 
> As I said earlier, we have strong ethics, so no, we don't get involved with anyone cheating on their spouse. Even asking that just shows me how much of an a**hole you are.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## EllisRedding

spinsterdurga said:


> I have a question for those who are against OS. Your partner doesn't have free will? They can't turn down their OSF?
> 
> Isn't it tiring to police your SO and essentially treat them like a child who needs to be told who they can or can't hang out with?


Actually, I think this is why it is important that both people be on the same page. If both people are against OSFs, feel it just adds unnecessary possible stress, then great. Likewise if both people see no issues with OSF. 

I would guess you run into issues where maybe one person wasn't for OSF, didn't really verbalize this to their SO, and then eventually it blows up.

In terms of free will though, do you think it is that easy for someone to just turn off a connection they may build with an OSF? I am not talking about doing the tango in a taco bell parking lot with your OSF, but how many times do you hear about two people (guy/gal) falling for each other when they had no intention of.


----------



## jdawg2015

And your analogies are nothing more than false associations and false premises. 

There's nothing to police. If you share values with your partner that 1:1 with OSF, etc then that's all it takes. 

They can hang out with whoever they want... because they'll be SINGLE after doing so. A boundary is MY boundary of what I will accept. She wants to have guy pals out at the bar 1:1 for happy hour? Sure. Buh-bye.



spinsterdurga said:


> I have a question for those who are against OS. Your partner doesn't have free will? They can't turn down their OSF?
> 
> Isn't it tiring to police your SO and essentially treat them like a child who needs to be told who they can or can't hang out with?


----------



## Marduk

jdawg2015 said:


> marduk, it's precisely how these things go down.....
> 
> And guy friend can have YEARS to listen to all the things she wants to hear and knows exactly what tune to sing.
> 
> Taking a women who has a close guy friend is probably the worst deal any man would take. It's like walking in a minefield.


Yup.

Although, in this case, it was pretty funny to watch her torch this friend and leave him as a scorched mess.

She took it as a pretty big betrayal of her friendship and never spoke to him again after that.


----------



## Marduk

spinsterdurga said:


> I have a question for those who are against OS. Your partner doesn't have free will? They can't turn down their OSF?
> 
> Isn't it tiring to police your SO and essentially treat them like a child who needs to be told who they can or can't hang out with?


You don't.

You set a boundary that is mutually agreed to, or you don't have a relationship at all.

In our case, our boundaries were pretty much the same. Until she didn't want them to be the same. And then she crossed them.

And then we had a problem which would be resolved by her backing away from the boundary (A), or we agree to shift the boundary(B), or we don't have a relationship(C).

A is what she chose. B would have meant that we are both open to secretive emotional affairs which freaked her the hell out. C terrified her and we both agreed it was a last resort.

But there was no (D) the boundary is in one place for her and a different place for me.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

that's not what you said. You said a spouse having a boundary limits someone's freewill. You are making a strawman argument by doing so.

A person can do what they want but the spouse has the FREEWILL to respond to that action by dumping them.

The reality in the vast majority of couples is they agree on boundaries and most don't find it ok for 1:1. That's the way it works.



spinsterdurga said:


> But you keep making it universal. You previously said that "I'd learn the hard way " and "no man will put up with my friendship etc..." You're extending your boundary as a universal truth, yet I can't do the same?


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> I have a question for those who are against OS. Your partner doesn't have free will? They can't turn down their OSF?
> 
> Isn't it tiring to police your SO and essentially treat them like a child who needs to be told who they can or can't hang out with?


The illusion of "free will" is inseparably tied to intellect. An accident is a fools destiny. How many times do people, when asked why did you do that, answer with the classic human response "I don't know"?

How can any action be diverted or preempted if the underlying cause or motivation is unknown?

One can delude themselves into thinking they have free will but we are, each of us, slaves to our cognizant abilities or lack thereof.


----------



## Marduk

spinsterdurga said:


> Yes.
> 
> It can be easy for Adrian and hard for Dan for instance. What baffles me is that some people here aren't taking into account the individuality of everyone.
> My connection with my best friend can't/won't lead to a relationship/fling. I'm not attracted to him. He's like my brother.


Right now you're not attracted to him.

Go through enough ****/booze/emotional distress, and you might be. 

It just takes one night.

Let me give you an example. My best bud growing up had a younger sister my sisters age. And she always crushed on me but I was never attracted to her, even when we were both in her 20's.

And she went through a bad breakup and I went through a bad breakup and we were both laughing and drinking one night...

And she kissed me. And I very nearly ****ed her brains out. Because she was there and I was down it would have been easy and maybe even somewhat emotionally cathartic for both of us.

I didn't, but I almost did.


----------



## EllisRedding

spinsterdurga said:


> Yes.
> 
> *It can be easy for Adrian and hard for Dan for instance*. What baffles me is that some people here aren't taking into account the individuality of everyone.


Well, see, your post above is exactly the problem. Adrian is easy and Dan is hard, sounds like they shouldn't be OSF >



spinsterdurga said:


> It happens to some people. There are friends who end together because they developed feelings for each other while others remain friends.


Agreed, not every OSF is going to turn into a sex fest and not every OSF is going to be more brotherly/sisterly. As mentioned, boundaries do also play a big role in this, and naturally everyone will have different circumstances that will determine how they view OSF. With my W if either one of us suddenly started a friendship with an OS (not a mutual friend) it would be an issue, but this is simply b/c this would not be the norm in our relationship over the years.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## NextTimeAround

spinsterdurga said:


> I have a question for those who are against OS. Your partner doesn't have free will? They can't turn down their OSF?
> 
> Isn't it tiring to police your SO and essentially treat them like a child who needs to be told who they can or can't hang out with?


I don't police my husband. After our discussion about his special friend, he dropped her completely -- 5 years ago--. We just don't have OSFs that we constantly message, call, have private jokes with.

Ergo, we don't get ourselves into situations in which a socalled well meaning friend might give me or him some advice about relationship; or behave in ways that suggest that they should be prioritised over me or my husband as the case may be.

These things follow a script. As I learned more about my (future) husband's special friend, I was able to predict a few things. She did tell him to drop me because she was asking me questions like how was the date?' did she spend the night; and so on. And guess, what she told him we were'nt having sex often enough.

I also find that the same women who think that they have a special relationship with a married man will become territorial with their own husband. Never mind that she calls your husband whenever she feels like it; but as soon as you call her husband, she's in fighting mode. ie, My husband told me you called his cellphone.

Those who are unmitigatedly pro OSF, well, you either reap the benefits of OSFs ie free meals; the rush of one upmanship, ie knowing that you f+cked some guy's wife while you're having dinner at his house; and so on.

The point here is to stop name calling. People are not insecure for having boundaries and enforcing them. Even if that means opting out of certain partners. Isn't that what "we weren't right for each other" means.

In any case, the biggest indicator of insecurity is that you have to accuse someone else of it to feel good about yourself.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Marduk

OSF can also engender insecurity, secret keeping, deception, or a million other non-romantic things that can kill a marriage without it being sexual, or even romantic.

That's why for us now OSF are either friends with us as a couple, or not part of the picture.


----------



## jdawg2015

And he's telling you many who crossed the line once said your exact same words.

There is a fine line between the brave and the stupid. 

You see many on here telling you real world stories of stuff that can and does go down.

I live in a hotel for years and OMG the things I've seen. Even the most level headed the one you'd never think would mess up and too much booze and bam it happened. 

With good boundaries in place it would not have happened. time and proximity is putting fire next to the gas can.



spinsterdurga said:


> I'm not you. I have self control. I don't date/**** friends. It's really simple.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Wolf1974

jdawg2015 said:


> You mean the posters who call other posters jealous and insecure for having more conservative values are the ones making it personal, right?
> 
> Thought so.


Well you can take offense as much as you like. I have called no one here insecure so take that elsewhere.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> Can it be used to explain infidelity?


Ultimately.

How many times have you heard of a truly remorseful, repentant WS that exclaimed "having that affair was the smartest thing I've ever done"?


----------



## Marduk

spinsterdurga said:


> I'm not you. I have self control. I don't date/**** friends. It's really simple.


So it is totally inconceivable that any of your friends could ever be promoted in any circumstance?

I don't buy it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Marduk

spinsterdurga said:


> Can you expand on this?


In what way?

The way I mean is pretty much the same as when a married dude goes to the strippers with his buddies. 

He may not be doing anything wrong, but because of information assymetry and a lack of empathetic wisdom, it can damage the relationship. With little benefit or reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> So it is totally inconceivable that any of your friends could ever be promoted in any circumstance?
> 
> I don't buy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why? Because you haven't experienced it? You're smarter than that. I have never and would never date any of my female friends. I don't think of them that way and our personalities would never mix beyond friendship. Again if I thought of them in that way then they aren't friends to begin with. they would be in the reserve "friend zone" and those aren't friends my opinion.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> You'd be okay with "I don't know why I did it" ?
> 
> *No, I was not.*
> 
> 
> There are many explanations other than "it was the smartest thing I've ever done "
> 
> *To explain what?*


----------



## NoChoice

marduk said:


> *OSF can also engender insecurity, secret keeping, deception, or a million other non-romantic things that can kill a marriage without it being sexual, or even romantic.*
> 
> That's why for us now OSF are either friends with us as a couple, or not part of the picture.


Absolutely, in fact is not a spouse merely an OSBFF



jdawg2015 said:


> And he's telling you many who crossed the line once said your exact same words.
> 
> *There is a fine line between the brave and the stupid*.
> 
> You see many on here telling you real world stories of stuff that can and does go down.
> 
> I live in a hotel for years and OMG the things I've seen. Even the most level headed the one you'd never think would mess up and too much booze and bam it happened.
> 
> With good boundaries in place it would not have happened. time and proximity is putting fire next to the gas can.


Imperceptible at times.


----------



## EllisRedding

The only thing I will add, which I think everyone can at least agree on. Having OSFs does increase the chance that things could be taken to the next level. Not saying it will or won't happen. If I am friends with a dude I can say with 110% certainty I will not develop any feelings for him beyond being a friend. If I am friends with a lady can I say with the same certainty I will not develop any feelings beyond friendship, no.


----------



## Aspydad

I don't care what anybody says, if the circumstances are right - and you end up with someone who you are attracted to (who is not your spouse) it is VERY VERY Hard NOT to act on IT.

This did happen to me, so I know all about it. Some will say that I am just someone who has no self control - a player - a cheat - but, I say that I am just HUMAN with the same internal drive that 100% of the world population has.

Before I met my wife I had a friend that was a girl - and she was actually VERY - VERY attractive. I was late teens at the time and she was a few years younger than me. Our parents knew each other and actually did things together - they would be over at our house and we would go over to their house. The thing is - this girl had along distance boyfriend because her family had moved to our town from far away. In summary - when I was between girlfriends - I would take this girl out as friends - and we did do this allot. I did know she was beautiful - but, because I knew she had a boyfriend - I did not lust after her - and she did not lust after me. After I met my wife to be - I let her know that I had promised to take this girl to prom as her boyfriend was not able to travel to do this - and my wife to be - had no problem with this. So I did take this girl to prom (even though I was feeling under the weather - I just took some strong meds and was able to do it) and if I was not a little sick - I think that maybe she was planning on getting closer to me in a sexual way - but, this did not happen as I was not feeling well.

Skip about fours years later - this girl was off at college and I actually had already graduated - I would hear about her from her parents and my parents - so I knew where she was. I was engaged to be married to my wife at the time. I had business right near her college - so I called her and asked if she wanted to get together - go out and have a few drinks and talk about old times - she was excited and told me yes. Now, she knew I was engaged - BUT, I did not know that she had broken up with her boyfriend - this had just happened a few months before we got together. So we go out - eat dinner, then she takes me to a fraternity party - where there is drinking and dancing to a live band. SO here I am - a guy friend who - is engaged, had been working and living 8 hours away from my wife to be for the last year - so I was the one now with the long distance relationship as my wife to be was in school getting ready to graduate and then marry me. SO this red blooded American boy is MIGHTY lonely to start with - is with this beautiful girl who just broke up with her boyfriend - and is having a great time with ME. So what could ever happen here?? I mean I am a christian guy - who loves his wife to be - and would never - ever cheat - right???

Well sorry - I guess I am just a loser - because when she came onto me - I COULD NOT STOP IT!!! So now I have to live the rest of my life knowing that I cheated on my my wife.

So can men and women ever just be friends??? NO (unless "caveat" - she is butt ugly) is my answer - I will never ever put myself in that situation again.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Why? Because you haven't experienced it? You're smarter than that. I have never and would never date any of my female friends. I don't think of them that way and our personalities would never mix beyond friendship. Again if I thought of them in that way then they aren't friends to begin with. they would be in the reserve "friend zone" and those aren't friends my opinion.


It's simple. It's logical and rational and in alignment with how the human mind actually works.

We cannot predict the future. We are not always equipped to make rational choices. We are, however, always equipped with reproductive organs and lymbic systems that want us to use them.

And we are built with this fantastic new neocortex which does many things well -- and rationalizing how our behaviour is rational is one of them. Making our behaviour actually be rational is not.


----------



## Marduk

spinsterdurga said:


> I meant can you expand on how it can engender insecurity?
> 
> I wouldn't care if my partner goes to the trippers.


Here's what it took a very good MC to get across to both of us.

When one of you does something without the other, there exists information asymmetry about what happend. One person has near perfect knowledge about what went on, the other _soley has the word of the other person._ Which is fine and good if you trust the person.

But every time you call on that trust and that trust only actually erodes the trust. And makes a person question it. Especially when it is actually reasonable or rational or logical to question the trust.

Let me give an example.

You put a blindfold on and have your spouse lead you around outdoors. You trust your spouse so this should be OK, right?

And the footing under your feet feels a bit loose. But your spouse says it's ok, don't worry about it. And then your spouse starts walking behind you instead of in front of you. But you trust your spouse, so you go along with it. And then feel wind on your face, and hear echos around you. You tentatively take a step and can't feel anything in front of you - no ground to step on.

But your spouse who is standing behind you says "don't worry, there's no cliff there, just jump."

Do you jump? Or do you pull up the blindfold and take a look because now you're just a little not sure?


----------



## southbound

Again, all this talk about 'boundaries." Why have boundaries if there isn't potential danger? My boundary would be to not have OSFs when married, but if a person goes beyond that boundary, then they have to have boundaries that get closer to the fire. 

I read once about couples with OSFs and their boundaries. One couple was ok with each other hanging out with their OSF, but they would never spend the night at each other's place without the spouse. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of some potential danger? I wouldn't have had an issue with my wife's uncle or brother staying the night without me there; I wonder why a couple needs that with OSF; why, because they are playing with fire.

Ive also read about people who have OSFs, and they basically have a date-like relationship. They call each other, eat out, call each other on birthdays, go to the movies, and go to activites that they share a like for. I guess I'm geared differently; I'm heterosexual, and I've never had a desire to spend that kind of time with a woman that I wasn't interested in things going further. 

Heck, if I was that interested in a woman, why not marry her? Being best friends is a huge part of a relationship anyway, and i can't imagine wanting to spend that kind of time with a woman and not being attracted to her.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> It's simple. It's logical and rational and in alignment with how the human mind actually works.
> 
> We cannot predict the future. We are not always equipped to make rational choices. We are, however, always equipped with reproductive organs and lymbic systems that want us to use them.
> 
> And we are built with this fantastic new neocortex which does many things well -- and rationalizing how our behaviour is rational is one of them. Making our behaviour actually be rational is not.


Then you and I have experienced life very differently. You talk as if you have no ability to really control yourself. That if stimulis AB are presented you're ok but If X is introduced then AB may not be controlled. I don't see it that way... I know who I am and what I am capable of. I have been tested and character proved me right. I know I won't cheat because that's not who I am or what I believe in. I can make that statement with more certainty that I could say I would never kill someone. Like I said earlier if I was attracted to them or had an inability to control myself then I would be concerned but in this area I have none.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Then you and I have experienced life very differently. You talk as if you have no ability to really control yourself. That if stimulis AB are presented you're ok but If X is introduced then AB may not be controlled. I don't see it that way... I know who I am and what I am capable of. I have been tested and character proved me right. I know I won't cheat because that's not who I am or what I believe in. I can make that statement with more certainty that I could say I would never kill someone. Like I said earlier if I was attracted to them or had an inability to control myself then I would be concerned but in this area I have none.


I have spent 25+ years doing martial arts and learning discipline.

But I have also spent a lot of time thinking, researching, trying to understand relationships. Mine, and others.

I know I won't cheat either, because I've been tested. But... I have to recognize that "knowing I won't cheat" is a belief like any other.

Your brain is not always rational. Even the rational bits are quite new. The lymbic bits are quite old.

Everyone makes poor decisions. Today I'm struggling to work out, even though I know I should. Last night we watched game of thrones knowing that it might make sex less likely. Etc.

If you eat bad, your brain chemistry may not support good decision making. If you're under emotional strain, you might act out in ways that surprise you. If you're sorely tempted and drinking, **** might happen. Social contexts have a heavier influence than we might be willing to admit. One doesn't have to look much further than watching a group of 30-45 year old conservative married women on a girls trip to Vegas to see how context is king. Or, this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment.

Better to just avoid temptation even if you're pretty sure, no? With a nice side dish of making your spouse more secure? Which is pretty nice.


----------



## EllisRedding

marduk said:


> Last night we watched game of thrones knowing that it might make sex less likely. Etc.


Good to see I am not alone in the struggle with this :grin2:


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> Again, all this talk about 'boundaries." Why have boundaries if there isn't potential danger? My boundary would be to not have OSFs when married, but if a person goes beyond that boundary, then they have to have boundaries that get closer to the fire.
> 
> I read once about couples with OSFs and their boundaries. One couple was ok with each other hanging out with their OSF, but they would never spend the night at each other's place without the spouse. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be because of some potential danger? I wouldn't have had an issue with my wife's uncle or brother staying the night without me there; I wonder why a couple needs that with OSF; why, because they are playing with fire.
> 
> Ive also read about people who have OSFs, and they basically have a date-like relationship. They call each other, eat out, call each other on birthdays, go to the movies, and go to activites that they share a like for. I guess I'm geared differently; I'm heterosexual, and I've never had a desire to spend that kind of time with a woman that I wasn't interested in things going further.
> 
> Heck, if I was that interested in a woman, why not marry her? Being best friends is a huge part of a relationship anyway, and i can't imagine wanting to spend that kind of time with a woman and not being attracted to her.


Boundrys are about comfort levels and not just about danger. I have boundrys on how we treat and respect each other... For example no name calling in fights or no making plans for the other person without checking in first...none of this is fear based.


I do have boundrys in this area just at a different level. I wouldn't be ok if my Gf has a friend who was an X boyfriend or husband. Even though I could reasonably rest assured they wouldn't get back together, otherwise why did they ever part right? To me once you establish that level of intimacy then you can never go back to friends. Others will disagree and have no problems with it. But that's a boundry line in the sand for me and it isn't fear based.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> I have spent 25+ years doing martial arts and learning discipline.
> 
> But I have also spent a lot of time thinking, researching, trying to understand relationships. Mine, and others.
> 
> I know I won't cheat either, because I've been tested. But... I have to recognize that "knowing I won't cheat" is a belief like any other.
> 
> Your brain is not always rational. Even the rational bits are quite new. The lymbic bits are quite old.
> 
> Everyone makes poor decisions. Today I'm struggling to work out, even though I know I should. Last night we watched game of thrones knowing that it might make sex less likely. Etc.
> 
> If you eat bad, your brain chemistry may not support good decision making. If you're under emotional strain, you might act out in ways that surprise you. If you're sorely tempted and drinking, **** might happen. Social contexts have a heavier influence than we might be willing to admit. One doesn't have to look much further than watching a group of 30-45 year old conservative married women on a girls trip to Vegas to see how context is king. Or, this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment.
> 
> Better to just avoid temptation even if you're pretty sure, no? With a nice side dish of making your spouse more secure? Which is pretty nice.


But there again compatability. I wouldn't be with a woman who has insecurity about this....we aren't compatable. I won't have my friends dictated to me.

You and I are on the same page with cheating, you know that. Here we just aren't going to agree. I don't see any danger with my OSF because if I did feel I was attracted or a line could be crossed then we are NOT friends in the first place. So I am already secure, as is my GF, in the position we are in.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> But there again compatability. I wouldn't be with a woman who has insecurity about this....we aren't compatable. I won't have my friends dictated to me.
> 
> You and I are on the same page with cheating, you know that. Here we just aren't going to agree. I don't see any danger with my OSF because if I did feel I was attracted or a line could be crossed then we are NOT friends in the first place. So I am already secure, as is my GF, in the position we are in.


Would you put your girlfriend in a position where rationality dictated that you were likely cheating, and solely your word to say otherwise?

And expect the relationship to be just fine?

When my wife and I started dating, I had lots of girls that were just friends. Even best-ish friends.

But when we became serious, they either became _our_ friends, or they got downgraded to aquaintences. Because even if everything's on the up and up... There's no point in making the relationship have cracks in the foundation pointlessly.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> @NoChoice Why they cheated


They cheated because they had no choice. Their cognizance was not sufficient to overcome whatever drive propelled them. Their inability to completely think through the process and project the devastating consequences (lack of forethought) coupled with their inability to self deny (selfishness) and their being unable to empathize (feel what their SO would feel). Any other "explanation" is extraneous.

My point with my previous post was to highlight the fact that lack of intellect (stupidity) is the underlying cause of virtually all infidelity.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> And since the majority of men don't do or act like you I stand by the FACT that it's atypical behavior.
> 
> Call it what you want but most women I know won't put up with their man going on dinner dates with other women. FACT.
> 
> It's like trying to deny the truth that the vast majority of married couples do not do some of the behavior highlighted on TAM.


OK folks we've been caught out. Putting "Fact" or "Fact!" after an opinion doesn't make it so however now that "FACT" has been capitalized that does mean that it is irrefutably correct.


----------



## WonkyNinja

NoChoice said:


> Ultimately.
> 
> How many times have you heard of a truly remorseful, repentant WS that exclaimed "having that affair was the smartest thing I've ever done"?


Some people make mistakes, that doesn't mean that everyone makes those same mistakes is that same situation.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> I agree slightly with everything except this. They had no choice? If they had no choice, then their partner shouldn't be upset since they had no choice.
> 
> They chose to cheat. We choose to act a certain way. It's a choice to kiss and have sex. It's not something that just happens without us choosing to.


And this is where the difficulty lies in understanding the root cause. A choice is a decision to act or not based on a set of variables much like a mathematical equation. What does 2+2 equal? How about 3+8+11? How about 12+27+16-3+9? How about 27+13*44+78/34-6+114/11*22+33/127?

You see as the equations get more and more difficult it requires more and more cognitive ability to solve> So let us assume that the right choice is NOT to cheat and the equation is 44 times 87 divided by 3 to the third power multiplied by the square root of 3452 plus 345 divided by Pi minus 144 to the fifth power times the square root of 19986. Now suppose you did not have a calculator and had to do this equation completely without assistance. Also consider that you are standing in the cold, soaking wet and it is raining. Would you cheat or not? (Cold, wet and raining representing alcohol, instinctual sexual desire and frustration)

Each of the variables in the equation equals a variable in the "decision" to cheat and without the ability to process the equation (mental calculator) what are the chances that the person will choose correctly? It moves from the realm of choice to the realm of inability to choose due to lack of processing ability.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> I will NEVER cheat. Cheating isn't a mathematical problem. People who cheat choose to do so. It's not a difficult mathematical problem.
> 
> Frankly, it's funny how you're trying to use math to excuse cheating. It's a choice.


You misunderstand. I do not excuse cheating I deplore it. What I am presenting is an understanding as to why it happens. You may indeed never cheat because one or more variables in your equation have equaled DO NOT CHEAT.

It is not so cut and dry for many. Imagine asking the first question I asked, what does 2+2 equal, to a 2 year old. Would they choose correctly. For you 2+2=4, end of story and done but for some with lesser maturity and mental development it is not so easy and the variables are much more complex.

This is why I have posted repeatedly that true R is extremely rare and difficult because it requires something of a cheater that the vast majority simply do not have the ability to do, grow up and think maturely.

Maturing at an advanced age is nigh unto impossible. Which is why the adage "once a cheater always a cheater" is, for the most part, accurate.

I actually pity my W in that I would be deeply troubled if my mentality was such that I would destroy something I held so dear. However, that brings into play another aspect of this very intricate web. In order to hold something in such high regard another complex set of variables must be processed and, sadly, she hasn't that ability either.

If you consider this carefully you will begin to see how it all intertwines together to make their "decision" more their fate than a choice. However, I have no desire to dissuade your beliefs, I offer this merely as food for thought.


----------



## southbound

I'm curious, how have some of you managed to suppress or eliminate feelings that seem natural for a lot of others. How do you hang out with an attractive person of the opposite sex in a date-like capacity and you pay no more attention to it than if you were hanging out with a piece of cardboard? You have an attraction that makes you want to spend time with them alone, but though thoughts of having sex with them turns your stomach?

I just have a different feel with women than I do with men. I understand that people need other friends. I get that us guys need to get together on occasion and tell some tough-guy stories, show each other how smart we are, do a little fishing, tell some bathroom jokes, and see who can grill the best steak. I guess there's something there that's different from what one gets with the opposite sex as far as the feeling goes. 

When I was married, however, anything I needed from the female side, I was fully satisfied in getting it with my wife, whether it was conversation, enjoying a movie, or whatever. Being with a woman is just a different feel than being with a man for me. I feel like the only reason I would want to hang out alone with another woman is if I was lacking something at home.


----------



## Married but Happy

southbound said:


> I'm curious, how have some of you managed to suppress or eliminate feelings that seem natural for a lot of others. How do you hang out with an attractive person of the opposite sex in a date-like capacity and you pay no more attention to it than if you were hanging out with a piece of cardboard?


Are you able to suppress your tendencies to sexually harass and molest women at work? Can you stop yourself from beating up or shooting some jerk you encounter in public? I'm sure you can. This is no different - it's self-control and awareness of circumstances and potential consequences.

Once you look at women simply as people, rather than as sex toys or sperm receptacles, it's pretty easy to treat them with respect, just like you'd treat a man. Yes, you can notice that they have these wonderful characteristics, but you don't need to dwell on it - or act on it. Besides, if you have integrity (which boils down to doing the right thing even when no-one who would care is watching), you won't put your existing committed relationship at risk, or potentially damage an enjoyable friendship for a cheap thrill.

If you can't maintain this perspective and integrity, then you may need to have more restrictive boundaries for yourself, and for those you don't trust any more than you trust yourself.


----------



## Wazza

Aspydad said:


> I don't care what anybody says, if the circumstances are right - and you end up with someone who you are attracted to (who is not your spouse) it is VERY VERY Hard NOT to act on IT.
> 
> This did happen to me, so I know all about it. Some will say that I am just someone who has no self control - a player - a cheat - but, I say that I am just HUMAN with the same internal drive that 100% of the world population has.
> 
> Before I met my wife I had a friend that was a girl - and she was actually VERY - VERY attractive. I was late teens at the time and she was a few years younger than me. Our parents knew each other and actually did things together - they would be over at our house and we would go over to their house. The thing is - this girl had along distance boyfriend because her family had moved to our town from far away. In summary - when I was between girlfriends - I would take this girl out as friends - and we did do this allot. I did know she was beautiful - but, because I knew she had a boyfriend - I did not lust after her - and she did not lust after me. After I met my wife to be - I let her know that I had promised to take this girl to prom as her boyfriend was not able to travel to do this - and my wife to be - had no problem with this. So I did take this girl to prom (even though I was feeling under the weather - I just took some strong meds and was able to do it) and if I was not a little sick - I think that maybe she was planning on getting closer to me in a sexual way - but, this did not happen as I was not feeling well.
> 
> Skip about fours years later - this girl was off at college and I actually had already graduated - I would hear about her from her parents and my parents - so I knew where she was. I was engaged to be married to my wife at the time. I had business right near her college - so I called her and asked if she wanted to get together - go out and have a few drinks and talk about old times - she was excited and told me yes. Now, she knew I was engaged - BUT, I did not know that she had broken up with her boyfriend - this had just happened a few months before we got together. So we go out - eat dinner, then she takes me to a fraternity party - where there is drinking and dancing to a live band. SO here I am - a guy friend who - is engaged, had been working and living 8 hours away from my wife to be for the last year - so I was the one now with the long distance relationship as my wife to be was in school getting ready to graduate and then marry me. SO this red blooded American boy is MIGHTY lonely to start with - is with this beautiful girl who just broke up with her boyfriend - and is having a great time with ME. So what could ever happen here?? I mean I am a christian guy - who loves his wife to be - and would never - ever cheat - right???
> 
> Well sorry - I guess I am just a loser - because when she came onto me - I COULD NOT STOP IT!!! So now I have to live the rest of my life knowing that I cheated on my my wife.
> 
> So can men and women ever just be friends??? NO (unless "caveat" - she is butt ugly) is my answer - I will never ever put myself in that situation again.


Not having her friendship is one possible boundary. Another might have been not to get drunk at a party with her.


----------



## southbound

Married but Happy said:


> Are you able to suppress your tendencies to sexually harass and molest women at work? Can you stop yourself from beating up or shooting some jerk you encounter in public? I'm sure you can. This is no different - it's self-control and awareness of circumstances and potential consequences.


So, you do admit, there is a level of "control" that is needed. In other words, you could have those feelings for an OSF if you just let yourself go, but you "control" yourself. 

That may seem like a duh statement, but some people do act as though being with an attractive person of the opposite sex that they enjoy being with is no different than being with your brother or sister. At least you admit there is some control that is needed, and that is what makes it a slippery slope. Sometimes, people's control button malfunctions.

And by the way, if you asked any woman I've ever encountered, they would say i treated them with respect at all times.


----------



## NextTimeAround

NoChoice said:


> They cheated because they had no choice. Their cognizance was not sufficient to overcome whatever drive propelled them. Their inability to completely think through the process and project the devastating consequences (lack of forethought) coupled with their inability to self deny (selfishness) and their being unable to empathize (feel what their SO would feel). Any other "explanation" is extraneous.
> 
> My point with my previous post was to highlight the fact that lack of intellect (stupidity) is the underlying cause of virtually all infidelity.


My exH's excuse was always "but I had to be nice" when he overlooked how nasty and dismissively his female friends treated me. Now there was a man who had no choice.


----------



## Wazza

southbound said:


> I'm curious, how have some of you managed to suppress or eliminate feelings that seem natural for a lot of others. How do you hang out with an attractive person of the opposite sex in a date-like capacity and you pay no more attention to it than if you were hanging out with a piece of cardboard? You have an attraction that makes you want to spend time with them alone, but though thoughts of having sex with them turns your stomach?


There are different sorts of attraction. Sexual is only one of them. And I can be attracted to a women sexually and not act on it, but still hang with her because she is attractive in other ways.

Hanging with someone doesn't have to be date-like. Not as I define dates, anyway.

But to be clear, there are situations where I wouldn't trust myself to act appropriately. I avoid those situations. So for example, lunch with an OSF in a well lit cafe, where my wife knows where we are is OK by my boundaries. Dinner for two, dancing and wine in a place with mood lighting would not be ok, because it might feed a mindset that would lead to things. For me.

It's not like I don't feel sexual temptation. It seems rather I can control it a bit more than you and Jdawg.

And really, we don't know which of us is typical. When Jdawg quotes numbers, what he seems to be saying is that this is what his friends are like. If his friends are not typical, than his numbers are wrong.



southbound said:


> I just have a different feel with women than I do with men. I understand that people need other friends. I get that us guys need to get together on occasion and tell some tough-guy stories, show each other how smart we are, do a little fishing, tell some bathroom jokes, and see who can grill the best steak. I guess there's something there that's different from what one gets with the opposite sex as far as the feeling goes.


It's great that this all works for you but not every guy likes to do that. We have different interests. I don't fish. I love a steak with a beer, but the conversation would be quite different from bathroom jokes and tough guy stories.



southbound said:


> When I was married, however, anything I needed from the female side, I was fully satisfied in getting it with my wife, whether it was conversation, enjoying a movie, or whatever. Being with a woman is just a different feel than being with a man for me. I feel like the only reason I would want to hang out alone with another woman is if I was lacking something at home.


I think the interesting thing is the strength of the male/female divide in your thinking.

When it comes to sex, I am completely and unashamedly hererosexual. But that's only one part of a person. If someone has interesting ideas, shared interests, or a sense of humour on my wavelength for example, these are attractive to me independent of their gender.

You are missing out on interesting interactions with half the population of the world because you are defining the whole person through one aspect.


----------



## jdawg2015

And some people listen and take heed at the path others have chosen. Being dismissive or pretending it can't happen just makes the situation even worse.

There are many people who have a lifetime of regret from that ONS while traveling for work, little to much to drink and having the great conversation with the cute person and lines gets crossed.

Happens every day.

Yes some of you want to pretend it's an impossible scenario or even partially admit that hanging around the cute guy or good looking woman could brew into trouble with the right circumstance.



I'd rather be with a person with similar values. I'd not be comfortable with a partner who spends time alone with the opposite sex.


WonkyNinja said:


> Some people make mistakes, that doesn't mean that everyone makes those same mistakes is that same situation.


----------



## Wazza

spinsterdurga said:


> I agree slightly with everything except this. They had no choice? If they had no choice, then their partner shouldn't be upset since they had no choice.
> 
> They chose to cheat. We choose to act a certain way. It's a choice to kiss and have sex. It's not something that just happens without us choosing to.


Yes, but we sometimes act on impulse. I think it's wise to assume that can happen, and set your boundaries far enough back that occasional lapses don't put you somewhere you don't want to be.

If you rely on yourself to always do the right thing, eventually you might disappoint yourself.


----------



## Wazza

NextTimeAround said:


> My exH's excuse was always "but I had to be nice" when he overlooked how nasty and dismissively his female friends treated me. Now there was a man who had no choice.


That sucks. You definitely shouldn't put up with that from him.

Anyone who hates or disrespects my wife is not my friend.


----------



## Married but Happy

southbound said:


> So, you do admit, there is a level of "control" that is needed. In other words, you could have those feelings for an OSF if you just let yourself go, but you "control" yourself.
> 
> That may seem like a duh statement, but some people do act as though being with an attractive person of the opposite sex that they enjoy being with is no different than being with your brother or sister. At least you admit there is some control that is needed, and that is what makes it a slippery slope. Sometimes, people's control button malfunctions.
> 
> And by the way, if you asked any woman I've ever encountered, they would say i treated them with respect at all times.


Sure, with some women I need to exercise a little control. They bring something very valuable in their friendship that makes the tiny risk worth the effort to keep the necessary distance. If the relationship needs to stay platonic, I will decide if I need to be more careful in how, when, and where I spend time with them. These are MY boundaries - I don't need anyone to tell me what they should be.

With most women who are my friends, there isn't sufficient attraction to need to exercise caution. Some I've previously dated, and know that we aren't suited - they're easy to have a platonic friends. And the longer I know even an attractive OSF, the less I need to think about keeping my distance - it becomes habitual, AS IF they were a sister. It becomes easier with time.

Some people will develop an infatuation, and won't pull back when they should. That's their problem to deal with, and they may need externally imposed boundaries if they can't create their own. I don't have an addictive personality, or other attitudes that increase my risk factors - quite the contrary. We are all different. What works for me may not work for you, and vice versa. My personality type is much more logic-driven than most people, so I may have an easier time with this.


----------



## jdawg2015

My advice to you is absolutely do not get married if you have that attitude.

When I was married to my exW, if she has something that bothered her there were many times I would do it for the purpose of making her voice heard

If you have a spouse saying, "babe Joe dingaling is giving me a vibe he's into you and I'm no longer comfortable with him around" and you just dismissed that as being insecure, THAT would be on you not listening to your spouse as a friend and partner.

You would immediately get a huge discount as to WHY you would want to continue to hang out with a guy likely attracted to you. Trust and respect would go out the window as it would show to me, that you value that friendship more than the marriage and I'd divorce you the next business day. What you'd be telling me is you don't trust my instincts and blow off my concerns.

Did you know it's been studied that your partner will detect someone attracted to you before you'll notice? It's primal instinct actually. Your partner will notice that little extra attention or focus on you during conversations that indicate interest by another party. I wish I could find the study but it's not some dreamed up phenomenon.

This is not insecurity at all. It's called having values and self-respect.

You have to ask yourself why you are willing to fight so hard for a friendship with another guy to the detriment of your marriage. What you are doing is setting up a potential marriage partner for a life of cuckhold. It's cake eating. If you need that much male attention it speaks more about being insecure and needing attention than a partner who can clearly define relationship boundaries.

Please, do a guy a favour and do not get married with your mindset.




spinsterdurga said:


> Your then boyfriend didn't have good boundaries. I don't talk to any of my friends about my relationship. From my perspective, the problem was with your then boyfriend because he tolerated what she was telling him.
> 
> *
> If a man tells me that I need to end my friendship with my best friend because he *probably* has feelings for me, I'd see him as an insecure man. *
> 
> Name calling is against the forum's rules, yet I'm still here so I guess I didn't engage in any name calling. Well, I didn't feel anything good or bad when I said that for me it's an insecurity if a guy tells ME to ditch my friend.?


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> Would you put your girlfriend in a position where rationality dictated that you were likely cheating, and solely your word to say otherwise?
> 
> And expect the relationship to be just fine?
> 
> When my wife and I started dating, I had lots of girls that were just friends. Even best-ish friends.
> 
> But when we became serious, they either became _our_ friends, or they got downgraded to aquaintences. Because even if everything's on the up and up... There's no point in making the relationship have cracks in the foundation pointlessly.


Well I have already stated that friends need to be friends of the relationship or they aren't Friends at all. I wouldn't have any person in my life who was undermining my relationship. That said yes the reverse is true. If my GF wouldn't accept my friends then we aren't going to last because I'm not dropping friends because she doesn't like their gender.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> I'm curious, how have some of you managed to *suppress or eliminate feelings *that seem natural for a lot of others. How do you hang out with an attractive person of the opposite sex in a date-like capacity and you pay no more attention to it than if you were hanging out with a piece of cardboard? You have an attraction that makes you want to spend time with them alone, but though thoughts of having sex with them turns your stomach?
> 
> I just have a different feel with women than I do with men. I understand that people need other friends. I get that us guys need to get together on occasion and tell some tough-guy stories, show each other how smart we are, do a little fishing, tell some bathroom jokes, and see who can grill the best steak. I guess there's something there that's different from what one gets with the opposite sex as far as the feeling goes.
> 
> When I was married, however, anything I needed from the female side, I was fully satisfied in getting it with my wife, whether it was conversation, enjoying a movie, or whatever. Being with a woman is just a different feel than being with a man for me. I feel like the only reason I would want to hang out alone with another woman is if I was lacking something at home.


this is the part that the otherwise refuses to see which is why it personally gives me a chuckle. i have never had feelings to suppress or eliminate. I never had feelings for my friends romantically. If I had then again they wouldn't be friends
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## southbound

Wazza said:


> It's not like I don't feel sexual temptation. It seems rather I can control it a bit more than you and Jdawg.


 I don't want to give the wrong impression that I'm like a ticking time bomb. I have great control I've never had an affair, and never 'almost" had an affair. If you were to ask anyone who knows me if they feel i would be inappropriate with a woman in any way, they'd probably laugh at the thought. I was just owning up to natural feelings. As these posts have went on, some of you have done the same and admitted that it takes control. So, I guess it just depends on who wants to walk the slippery slope. I have always chosen not to.

And it's not all about the fear of an affair with me. These kinds of relationships can hurt marriages even if sex doesn't happen. If I'm married or dating someone, I just feel like I owe them my time and not some other woman, and I would actually "want" to do that. 



Wazza said:


> It's great that this all works for you but not every guy likes to do that. We have different interests. I don't fish. I love a steak with a beer, but the conversation would be quite different from bathroom jokes and tough guy stories.


I was just throwing that out as a little toungue-in-cheek example. I realize every man isn't into those exact things.




Wazza said:


> But to be clear, there are situations where I wouldn't trust myself to act appropriately. I avoid those situations. So for example, lunch with an OSF in a well lit cafe, where my wife knows where we are is OK by my boundaries. Dinner for two, dancing and wine in a place with mood lighting would not be ok, because it might feed a mindset that would lead to things. For me.


I would just feel weird knowing I had a wife sitting at home, or doing whatever, and I'm out with someone having to make sure i keep my boundaries in line so i don't fall into the wrong mindset that might lead to something. That's just unusual for my neck of the woods. I've never in my life know anyone from my town that hangs out like that. I never walk into a restaurant and see a guy with a woman that isn't his wife and someone informs me that they are "just friends." Oh look, there's mom with her male friend.:surprise:



Wazza said:


> You are missing out on interesting interactions with half the population of the world because you are defining the whole person through one aspect.


I have plenty of appropriate interactions with women. i work with a lady that I went to high school with. We talk, laugh, and enjoy a friendship, but I don't go out with her and call her up to chat. I really don't think she or her husband would appreciate it.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> this is the part that the otherwise refuses to see which is why it personally gives me a chuckle. i have never had feelings to suppress or eliminate. I never had feelings for my friends romantically. If I had then again they wouldn't be friends
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm. When I was single and dating I had lots of girls that were friends that were cool and hot. And I just decided not to have sex with them. 

But my body sure wanted to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jdawg2015

Oh is that such an over simplification.

There is a choice. But the judgement and how people arrive at that choice is where lines get blurred. By the time you've become so invested in that "just a friend" it becomes very hard for people to emotionally withdraw and their judgement goes out the window. The classic fog of emotional and physical affairs. So rather than setting up the potential for that, I and the vast majority of society to not have partners who have close OSF. I hope you realize your idea of marriage and OSF relationships is atypical and not the inverse...

I have never cheated nor do I think I ever would. But I'm also very aware that given the right circumstances it could happen. Why? Because what I've seen to many other people. So I won't put myself in that situation and also give my gf the security of knowing I'm not being best pals with other women. 



spinsterdurga said:


> We either have a choice to cheat or we don't. Which is it?


----------



## jdawg2015

I was telling you for your own benefit. I could not care less if you marry. 

I've been around the block a time or two and have enough wisdom to see you have an attitude what will give you a lot of relationship problems.

My daughter would definitely not gel with you that's for sure.....
She's your age. I actually know her childhood friends as I know all of their parents. Never would a childhood friend be hanging out with her 1:1 while she's with her boyfriend. They may be on her Facebook but they don't private message or text. We've specifically had this conversation. And her bf show's her the same respect. Not surprising that I could see them eventually getting married.

Nobody has said ditch your "friend" entirely. But if in a committed relationship that friendship must change. If you are sharing the relationship details, if you are spending time with him 1:1, texting him about life, etc then you're going to find a lot of men have issues with it. That's they way it is.


spinsterdurga said:


> Sorry to disappoint you I will get married if I find the right person.
> 
> I need tangible proof... A vibe isn't tangible. I'd love to read the study that was done. Can you post a link?
> 
> We're going to agree to disagree. My friend has never bee disrespectful to me or any of my relationships. A man who would have an issue with him based on vibes might be experiencing the insecurity vibe.
> 
> Lol I don't need attention. I refuse to end a friendship that I've had since I was 8 for no reason.
> 
> Sadly, I'll probably get married.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> Hmm. When I was single and dating I had lots of girls that were friends that were cool and hot. And I just decided not to have sex with them.
> 
> But my body sure wanted to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are different .. That's kinda my point. I have had these friends prior to meeting my GF. I was single when they were and had many a drunk night. Never anything happened because we were friends only and still are. If I thought they were hot and I wanted them I wouldn't be able to have them as friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WonkyNinja

jdawg2015 said:


> Your car accident comparison is a strawman argument and a very poor analogy.
> 
> Even in a car, you can go the speed limit or slow down in bad weather to reduce risk. Or you can speed and still get to the same destination. I prefer the former to the latter.....


So you accept that travelling in a car has the potential for an accident and therefore you take steps to avoid that happening. That makes total sense.

Stating that you will never go in a car, your spouse may never go in a car and assuring others with total certainty that if they go in a car they will die does not make sense.



jdawg2015 said:


> Fact. Heterosexual males with a penis want to use that penis.


They may also be totally happy with the way their penis is used at home and wish to use other parts of their body, such as intellect and humor, to have lunch with a friend. Back to the difference between Human beings and Bonobos.



jdawg2015 said:


> And some people listen and take heed at the path others have chosen. Being dismissive or pretending it can't happen just makes the situation even worse.
> 
> There are many people who have a lifetime of regret from that ONS while traveling for work, little to much to drink and having the great conversation with the cute person and lines gets crossed.
> 
> Happens every day.
> 
> Yes some of you want to pretend it's an impossible scenario or even partially admit that hanging around the cute guy or good looking woman could brew into trouble with the right circumstance.


You cannot imagine how much it hurts to admit this, but I agree with you. 

I'm not pretending it can't happen or that people don't make mistakes that they regret and no one is pretending that it is an impossible scenario. But that is nowhere near the same as stating it to be a certain outcome because men cannot think of anything other than sex. 

There are many things that can and do happen but in the vast majority of cases can't and won't.

People win the lottery but I can state as fact that I won't, even if I do buy a ticket. 

The difference between zero chance and 1:175,000,000 is negligible. If I do ever win I promise I'll come back here and make a thread stating that I was wrong. It will be by WiFi from a remote island somewhere while my wife and I sit with drinks in our hands but I'll do it.

The divorce rate is supposedly 50% so would you suggest that anyone who gets married is an idiot because their life will be ***d up.

The problem we are having is that you want to take something that does happen in a minority of instances and state that it is a certainty to all.


----------



## jdawg2015

I stopped reading once I saw that analogy. The rest of the post is assume gibberish.


You don't need to be out 1:1 with other males/females when married.

In most of society unless you are the Unabomber or a complete recluse you either need to be in a car or at least some form of transportation. To make that comparison is at a level of intellect I don't find your discussion to be engaging or someone I could ever gain any new perspective from. I actually do listen to both sides. 

And nobody said cut out people ever to be seen again. You made that illogical conclusion.

When I hear OSF, to me, that means a person with whom you spend time alone with and engage in deeper conversation that would be off limits once in a relationship. The childhood friend who makes comment on Facebook etc is not what most of us are concerned about. It's that close and personal interaction that is typically reserved for the romantic partner that most of us have issues with.

Many of the OSF proponents are being obtuse and discounting the obvious. OSF present a lot of challenges and create issues that would not be present with a same sex friend (assuming hetero couple). 




WonkyNinja said:


> *Stating that you will never go in a car, your spouse may never go in a car and assuring others with total certainty that if they go in a car they will die does not make sense.
> 
> *
> .


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

As a male I have far more insight into what your friend thinks that you realize.

Look at the words even the pro OSF crowd has stated. Some are even mentioning about having attraction but the just don't show it. That's EXACTLY what was stated in the two videos I linked above.

Do you really think all of "insecure" people would be stating this stuff if there was not any nuggets of wisdom to learn?
Ignorance is bliss.




spinsterdurga said:


> You called me an attention ho, not relationship material and seeking attention from men and were condescending yesterday.
> You're right. I have an attitude. Just because you have been around the block doesn't mean that you have greater inside into my best friend's mind.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## NoChoice

Are we to draw any distinction here between romantic attraction and purely sexual attraction. IMO sexual attraction is instinctual whereas romantic attraction is more cognizant. Instinctual sexual attraction has to be countered with intellect because it it spontaneous. Romantic attraction, even though it can lead to sex, requires more deliberate thought.

I have never felt romantic attraction to another woman since my marriage, until just recently due to my W's betrayal, but I digress. I have felt raw sexual attraction to another female and simply out thought it. I am unfamiliar with having zero raw sexual attraction for a female I find attractive. That part of my brain literally has a mind of its own. My cognizant mind however has control over that portion of my brain.

Again, IMO, if a male is having romantic thoughts about a female then that implies a desire to not only have sex with her but to consciously pursue it since romantic thoughts are driven by cognition. Then it is dangerous. Raw sexual thoughts, although intense at times, are still subject to the cognitive part of the psyche. It is when you begin to involve the cognitive portion in the raw thoughts that trouble follows.


----------



## jdawg2015

Firstly, even gay means nothing as he could be bisexual. Everything we've discussed has been about hetero.

Men don't hang around women they don't want to fugk. Don't forget that FACT.



spinsterdurga said:


> Oh you do? So you know whether he's straight, a player? What he's like?
> 
> 
> Just because you think it doesn't mean it's a fact.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> We either have a choice to cheat or we don't. Which is it?


Actually, those with high cognition, as you express to have, cannot cheat, you have no choice either for to do so would destroy everything you believe in and honor. For such individuals 2+2=4 (4=not cheating) and it always will. They cannot make 2+2=5 or 9 or any other number because they know the answer is 4.

However, for those who do not see 4 it is a different matter altogether. Since they do not see the correct answer they are destined to answer wrong.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Wazza

spinsterdurga said:


> We either have a choice to cheat or we don't. Which is it?


We have a choice, but we also face temptation, and sometimes choose it.


----------



## Wazza

southbound said:


> I don't want to give the wrong impression that I'm like a ticking time bomb. I have great control I've never had an affair, and never 'almost" had an affair. If you were to ask anyone who knows me if they feel i would be inappropriate with a woman in any way, they'd probably laugh at the thought. I was just owning up to natural feelings. As these posts have went on, some of you have done the same and admitted that it takes control. So, I guess it just depends on who wants to walk the slippery slope. I have always chosen not to.
> 
> And it's not all about the fear of an affair with me. These kinds of relationships can hurt marriages even if sex doesn't happen. If I'm married or dating someone, I just feel like I owe them my time and not some other woman, and I would actually "want" to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just throwing that out as a little toungue-in-cheek example. I realize every man isn't into those exact things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would just feel weird knowing I had a wife sitting at home, or doing whatever, and I'm out with someone having to make sure i keep my boundaries in line so i don't fall into the wrong mindset that might lead to something. That's just unusual for my neck of the woods. I've never in my life know anyone from my town that hangs out like that. I never walk into a restaurant and see a guy with a woman that isn't his wife and someone informs me that they are "just friends." Oh look, there's mom with her male friend.:surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> I have plenty of appropriate interactions with women. i work with a lady that I went to high school with. We talk, laugh, and enjoy a friendship, but I don't go out with her and call her up to chat. I really don't think she or her husband would appreciate it.


There is a lot you write here that I agree with. Your high school friend is probably not all that different from my OSFs. For example, I used to work with one close friend, and we would sometimes do lunch at a local cafe. Maybe you wouldn't do that, but in a scenario where nothing can come of it, with my wife's knowledge, I don't see a problem. But I wouldn't take her to dinner and a movie.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Wazza

spinsterdurga said:


> "We CHOOSE temptation" I guess we agree that people choose to cheat.


Anyone who gives into temptation is making a choice in a sense. I think it's prudent to assume you might get tempted and be cautious though. Southbound described the whole thing as a slippery slope. I think the way he put it nailed how I see it, even though I set a different boundary than what he would choose.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

spinsterdurga said:


> "We CHOOSE temptation" I guess we agree that people choose to cheat.


Absolutely...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Wazza said:


> Anyone who gives into temptation is making a choice in a sense. I think it's prudent to assume you might get tempted and be cautious though. Southbound described the whole thing as a slippery slope. I think the way he put it nailed how I see it, even though I set a different boundary than what he would choose.


I really can't see this "in a sense" thought unless you are willing to accept compromised values... but then compromised values are still a choice.

If you are willing to lie to yourself, you are willing to lie to anybody.

If I respect myself, others will be rewarded.


----------



## southbound

Wolf1974 said:


> We are different .. That's kinda my point. I have had these friends prior to meeting my GF. I was single when they were and had many a drunk night. Never anything happened because we were friends only and still are. If I thought they were hot and I wanted them I wouldn't be able to have them as friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand why you are different; you had different situations. I believe marduk said his friends were cool and hot, you are saying that your friends were not hot. If your OSFs are not attractive, I suppose that does make a huge difference.


----------



## thefam

We don't have OSF's in our marriage. I told my H I could not handle it, being in a position to know first hand that he f'kd most of his OSF's before we started dating. For his part, he found that lifestyle totally empty and unfulfilling after a certain point, and wanted to get away from it. 

However, even if that were not his background, I could not imagine my H with an OS bestie. Anything that he would be sowing into maintaining that "bestie" status would be time away from strengthening our relationship. Someone, I think it was @Personal described his relationship with his OSF and the kinds of things they did together. I could not be with a man who needed to share that much of himself outside of our marriage. I strongly suspect that somewhere down the line one of the partners in these marriages where they go out on dates with their bestie will get their feelings hurt somewhere down the line over that bestie. But if you manage to make it through until one of you dies, then great.

Spinster, if I were you I would not box myself into such a corner as to say you will never give up your bestie for any man. You just might meet the guy with whom the chemistry and compatibility is off the chart, but he doesn't go for the OSF scene. You have boxed yourself into a corner and have no choice but to call him insecure and dump him. And then you realize down the road that you really let who could have been the love of your life get away. There are very, very, very few relationship in which the two have found the person for whom they can build a wonderful relationship and family with, and for whom the passion burns for each other until they grow old. They start out very young, but instead of growing apart as they mature, they grow closer together. They are still in love after being together for many years. It happens. But not very often. But guess what? That person might feel a certain type of way about OSF's and you let them go because you boxed yourself into that corner before you even developed the relationship. I would urge you to think outside that box but I know you probably won't.


----------



## jdawg2015

Excellent post and mirrors my feelings.

Her rigidness is probably the issue I also take exception too. It shows an unwillingness to even consider the other side.


thefam said:


> We don't have OSF's in our marriage. I told my H I could not handle it, being in a position to know first hand that he f'kd most of his OSF's before we started dating. For his part, he found that lifestyle totally empty and unfulfilling after a certain point, and wanted to get away from it.
> 
> However, even if that were not his background, I could not imagine my H with an OS bestie. Anything that he would be sowing into maintaining that "bestie" status would be time away from strengthening our relationship. Someone, I think it was @Personal described his relationship with his OSF and the kinds of things they did together. I could not be with a man who needed to share that much of himself outside of our marriage. I strongly suspect that somewhere down the line one of the partners in these marriages where they go out on dates with their bestie will get their feelings hurt somewhere down the line over that bestie. But if you manage to make it through until one of you dies, then great.
> 
> Spinster, if I were you I would not box myself into such a corner as to say you will never give up your bestie for any man. You just might meet the guy with whom the chemistry and compatibility is off the chart, but he doesn't go for the OSF scene. You have boxed yourself into a corner and have no choice but to call him insecure and dump him. And then you realize down the road that you really let who could have been the love of your life get away. There are very, very, very few relationship in which the two have found the person for whom they can build a wonderful relationship and family with, and for whom the passion burns for each other until they grow old. They start out very young, but instead of growing apart as they mature, they grow closer together. They are still in love after being together for many years. It happens. But not very often. But guess what? That person might feel a certain type of way about OSF's and you let them go because you boxed yourself into that corner before you even developed the relationship. I would urge you to think outside that box but I know you probably won't.


----------



## tech-novelist

notmyrealname4 said:


> You confide thoughts and ideas to your ss friends that you would *cringe* with embarrassment if they appeared on the front cover of a newspaper; even if it's something intimate, yet silly--"I believe the lost continent of Atlantis lies under the Bermuda Triangle, it acts as an underwater base for UFO's":nerd:


I thought everyone knew that!


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Wolf1974 said:


> We are different .. That's kinda my point. I have had these friends prior to meeting my GF. I was single when they were and had many a drunk night. Never anything happened because we were friends only and still are. If I thought they were hot and I wanted them I wouldn't be able to have them as friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How about them being "hot" and not wanting them?

Why wouldn't that be an option?

Desire does not have to be uncontrollable... and I believe that when one looks at friends as lusty pleasure puppets, respect has taken a nosedive.

Why would I want to diminish who I am for that?


----------



## Wazza

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I really can't see this "in a sense" thought unless you are willing to accept compromised values... but then compromised values are still a choice.
> 
> If you are willing to lie to yourself, you are willing to lie to anybody.
> 
> If I respect myself, others will be rewarded.


Of course, giving in to temptation is a choice. Not putting yourself in a situation of strong temptation can mitigate the risk of it. 

Where I agree with the non-OSF crowd is that sex is a powerful drive that you can't always control.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Wazza said:


> Of course, giving in to temptation is a choice. Not putting yourself in a situation of strong temptation can mitigate the risk of it.
> 
> Where I agree with the non-OSF crowd is that sex is a powerful drive that you can't always control.


Ok, so one accepts the weakness... you don't grow by avoiding it though.

No doubt lack of control is what destroys... is all thrown out for animalistic behaviors?

Why are we so willing to be fearful of our own desires?

My work friends are attractive, if were to ever be asked I can honestly say as such to them.

That absolutely does not mean in a situation that I was advanced on that I would be stripping off clothes in progressive sexual congress or any abbreviation therein.

There lies the respect... respect and love for me first, that I would not want that loss of control. 

Respect for my wife second, that I love her and would never betray her nor her trust. 

Respect for the friend third, that I would never reduce our friendship for a fleeting sexual gratification that would change everything that was critical to be friends.

If I have lost all that, I have lost myself...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

spinsterdurga said:


> I have boundaries with my friend whether I'm in a relationship or not is irrelevant since I won't date/sleep with him. I wrote in previous pages that I ended a friendship with a guy who had feelings for me. I'd do the same with my best friend if he had feelings for me.
> 
> You want me to consider ending/restricting contacts with him because he has a penis.
> 
> 
> Anyway, everyone should do whatever works for them.


:thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Wolf1974

Emerging Buddhist said:


> How about them being "hot" and not wanting them?
> 
> Why wouldn't that be an option?
> 
> Desire does not have to be uncontrollable... and I believe that when one looks at friends as lusty pleasure puppets, respect has taken a nosedive.
> 
> Why would I want to diminish who I am for that?


Because I don't believe that it's a true friendship if you have sexual desires for them. I'm sure my friends are hot. After all 2 of 3 are married. I just don't think of them that way but their husbands do


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> I understand why you are different; you had different situations. I believe marduk said his friends were cool and hot, you are saying that your friends were not hot. If your OSFs are not attractive, I suppose that does make a huge difference.


I'm sure they are I just don't see them that way or think of them as such. I'm sure my daughters will be one day and I also won't think of them as such. I mean if people really can't make the distinction here I kinda pity them.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Wolf1974 said:


> Because I don't believe that it's a true friendship if you have sexual desires for them. I'm sure my friends are hot. After all 2 of 3 are married. I just don't think of them that way but their husbands do


It seems it matters to what role you place the definition in.

"Hot" to me simply means attractive or the recognition of being attractive.

"Hot" to you seems to mean sexual desire...

That said, sexual desires are lust, that is a step beyond recognizing attractiveness.

I guess actions are the proof in this pudding, that is the source of true friendships.

All comes back to respect.


----------



## NextTimeAround

NoChoice said:


> And this is where the difficulty lies in understanding the root cause. A choice is a decision to act or not based on a set of variables much like a mathematical equation. What does 2+2 equal? How about 3+8+11? How about 12+27+16-3+9? How about 27+13*44+78/34-6+114/11*22+33/127?
> 
> You see as the equations get more and more difficult it requires more and more cognitive ability to solve> So let us assume that the right choice is NOT to cheat and the equation is 44 times 87 divided by 3 to the third power multiplied by the square root of 3452 plus 345 divided by Pi minus 144 to the fifth power times the square root of 19986. Now suppose you did not have a calculator and had to do this equation completely without assistance. Also consider that you are standing in the cold, soaking wet and it is raining. Would you cheat or not? (Cold, wet and raining representing alcohol, instinctual sexual desire and frustration)
> 
> Each of the variables in the equation equals a variable in the "decision" to cheat and without the ability to process the equation (mental calculator) what are the chances that the person will choose correctly? It moves from the realm of choice to the realm of inability to choose due to lack of processing ability.



Or what people do to justify their choices is to create excuses.

If someone is contemplating cheating on their partner, they will start finding fault with him / her. What was once endearing is now annoying. Any blame you can settle on your partner, you will. You may even shift your values and memory of things to justify the (relative) inferiority of your partner, and therefore, it's somehow ok to cheat or to flat out dump your partner.

The first year of my relationship with my (future) husband, was he still contemplating getting back with his just a friend ex. I noticed he made some rather petty complaints about me. And now I know why.

ETA: One specific was that I saw the text message from his just friend ex that suggested that I am probably dating / f^cking someone else so it was ok for them to hang out and to take a trip together. He never once asked me about that but admitted, effectively, that he used that as an excuse to continue to see his friend.


----------



## Maricha75

jdawg2015 said:


> Men don't hang around women they don't want to fugk. Don't forget that FACT.


 

And we're back to that OPINION... Though there were some MEN who refuted this already. *MOST* men, not all, jdawg. You just can't let that one go. Most =/= all, no matter how much you wish it to be so. You say @spinsterdurga is rigid in her position on the subject... so are you! You are correct *only* about your PERSONAL observations (and those who have had similar). However, your experience =/= that of the entire population of the world, as has been stated by many people, including men. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Ok, so one accepts the weakness... you don't grow by avoiding it though.
> 
> No doubt lack of control is what destroys... is all thrown out for animalistic behaviors?
> 
> Why are we so willing to be fearful of our own desires?
> 
> My work friends are attractive, if were to ever be asked I can honestly say as such to them.
> 
> That absolutely does not mean in a situation that I was advanced on that I would be stripping off clothes in progressive sexual congress or any abbreviation therein.
> 
> There lies the respect... respect and love for me first, that I would not want that loss of control.
> 
> Respect for my wife second, that I love her and would never betray her nor her trust.
> 
> Respect for the friend third, that I would never reduce our friendship for a fleeting sexual gratification that would change everything that was critical to be friends.
> 
> If I have lost all that, I have lost myself...


Lust does take over. Affairs do happen. If you fall, and cheat, it's not just you that gets hurt. Do you have a right to expose you're spouse to that risk as well as yourself?


----------



## Wolf1974

Emerging Buddhist said:


> It seems it matters to what role you place the definition in.
> 
> "Hot" to me simply means attractive or the recognition of being attractive.
> 
> "Hot" to you seems to mean sexual desire...
> 
> That said, sexual desires are lust, that is a step beyond recognizing attractiveness.
> 
> I guess actions are the proof in this pudding, that is the source of true friendships.
> 
> All comes back to respect.


I do recognize they are probably attractive and sexually attractive I just don't think of them that way. Feelings can determine that perception. My X wife is a perfect example. At one time when married I thought she was the most beautiful woman on the planet. I really did and my feelings toward her helped to paint that picture. After she cheated and we divorced I find her now sexually repugnant and give her the nickname the anti-hardon. Nothing has changed with her, still virtually looks the same I'm sure, but I don't think of her in that way at all anyway.


----------



## NoChoice

spinsterdurga said:


> *sight* Dude, I can't answer you without being mean, so whatever makes you sleep better at night.


You cannot choose to respond nicely? Are you saying you have no choice?


----------



## Wolf1974

So while this boggles the mind I will ask this question that I asked in the last thread about this subject that went pretty much the same way. So if you won't have OSF because you feel you may loose control what do you do about the female co-worker, the female bank teller, the service waitress. I mean just as many affairs start that way as OSF that probably were never really friends in the first place. So do you just not go out? Are you not allowed to talk to them? Cheaters are going to cheat that is the only really FACT here and cheaters will find a way if that is the intention they are going for


----------



## NoChoice

Wolf1974 said:


> I do recognize they are probably attractive and sexually attractive I just don't think of them that way. Feelings can determine that perception. My X wife is a perfect example. At one time when married I thought she was the most beautiful woman on the planet. I really did and my feelings toward her helped to paint that picture. After she cheated and we divorced I find her now sexually repugnant and give her the nickname the anti-hardon. Nothing has changed with her, still virtually looks the same I'm sure, but I don't think of her in that way at all anyway.


I believe that this is a key element in understanding "hot" as it pertains to creating desire. In the raw thoughts the only requirement is attractiveness or looks. For some that is all that is necessary to copulate with someone.

However, to someone with more thought, the process morphs to include other characteristics beyond physical attractiveness such as personality, hygiene, availability (married or single), and a host of other considerations that are necessary for that individual to desire to perform coitus.

So then, even though the person may be seen as "attractive" initially, once the additional traits are thought out their "attractiveness" as a sexual partner diminishes.

Again, all of this is dependent on how much thought is involved and therefore requires a higher level of cognizance.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Wolf1974 said:


> So while this boggles the mind I will ask this question that I asked in the last thread about this subject that went pretty much the same way. So if you won't have OSF because you feel you may loose control what do you do about the female co-worker, the female bank teller, the service waitress. I mean just as many affairs start that way as OSF that probably were never really friends in the first place. So do you just not go out? Are you not allowed to talk to them? * Cheaters are going to cheat* that is the only really FACT here and cheaters will find a way if that is the intention they are going for


This reminds me of a guy that I dated in college. I was sharing an apartment with a (female) friend. He spent the night. I had a class the next morning but he did not have any morning plans. And I being the nice person that I am told him that he could stay after I left, let himself out but remember to close and lock the window in my bedroom We were on the ground floor.

He neglected to close and lock the window. And then lectured me about how it didn't matter because if anyone wanted to burglaise our place, they would do it anyway......

these days, anyone who gives me a lecture has just chosen, inadvertently, to never again be a part of my life......

1. so locking doors and windows don't make a difference ...... telling that to the insurance companies..

2. being careful online doesn't matter, I guess, hackers are going to hack no matter how many times you change your PW........ ok, try to convince your bank that.......

3. and cheaters are going to cheat........ Let's tighten that up...... Serial cheaters are going to cheat with the waitress, the bank teller and so on ....... as Wolfe says. I bet waitresses and bank tellers would not be happy to learn that you think that they -- as a group -- willing homewreckers. but I digress. 

There are a lot accidental cheaters who just would not have done it if the opportunity had not arisen.


----------



## Married but Happy

Wazza said:


> Lust does take over. Affairs do happen. If you fall, and cheat, it's not just you that gets hurt. Do you have a right to expose you're spouse to that risk as well as yourself?


Yes, I have that right. Why? Because we've talked about OSF, and agree about them. The risk is very minimal compared to the benefits.

Using your argument, you should never drive with your spouse in the car - actually, you should never drive at all, with our without your spouse! If you fail and have an accident, it's not just you that gets hurt. Do you have a right to expose your spouse to that risk as well as yourself?

Living you life based on the fear of what could happen isn't living your life. The only reason you do some things and not others is ignorance of the true risk exposure. Your risks from heavy drinking, smoking, eating raw oysters or undercooked food, etc. are far greater and even provide far less benefit than having OSF.

Let me add this: If you know you're a poor driver, then you should either not drive, or greatly limit your driving. If you're an alcoholic, you should avoid alcohol. If you have poor impulse control, you should avoid gambling. If you easily experience uncontrollable lust, or know you'd take an opportunity to cheat, you should avoid OSF other than in public settings with your spouse present - or not have any. It's not a simple yes/no decision - just as the other examples aren't. There is a spectrum of risk/reward, and you have to decide on your own balance based on your own tendencies and circumstances.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Wazza said:


> Lust does take over. Affairs do happen. If you fall, and cheat, it's not just you that gets hurt. Do you have a right to expose you're spouse to that risk as well as yourself?


Quite true, lust obviously can take over, but it doesn't have to. As I was reading spinsterdurga's exchange with her points, this is what I drew from her words and agree whole heartedly where true friends overcome this unhealthy desire and be simply friends, regardless of the gender, as a person's attractiveness is a very small percentage outside and a very large percentage inside.

Funny how too often that gets twisted to opposites.

As I understand your point above, those addicted to lust have to remove themselves from friends they find too "desirable" in order to stay right in their mind and deed.

To answer your question, you have a duty to better yourself so both you and your spouse never has to fear that risk in you.

Think of all the quality you miss in people around you by not applying this boundary in yourself?

Myself, I choose healthy self-control as many do... reflecting on openness and recognition that life is all about a healthy approach, thus why I apply my rule of looking at my life as reading the front page of a newspaper in my interactions with friends and life in general. If my friends think me attractive, that is very kind of them, but if my friends find me desirable with lust and cannot refrain from threatening our friendship with said unhealthy desire, that is very unkind of them and I would have to reevaluate our friendships.

I am sure we are not done, but thank you for the great conversation!


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> So while this boggles the mind I will ask this question that I asked in the last thread about this subject that went pretty much the same way. So if you won't have OSF because you feel you may loose control what do you do about the female co-worker, the female bank teller, the service waitress. I mean just as many affairs start that way as OSF that probably were never really friends in the first place. So do you just not go out? Are you not allowed to talk to them? Cheaters are going to cheat that is the only really FACT here and cheaters will find a way if that is the intention they are going for


Although I follow where you are trying to go with this, there is a big difference IMO between getting money from a female bank teller and having an actual friendship (unless this bank teller is slipping me extra money  ). No one is saying that you can't talk to the OS, just that you need to have boundaries (or maybe more important understand how easily you can maintain your boundaries, which will vary from person to person). If someone understands that maybe they have a harder time enforcing their boundaries, then shouldn't they be extra careful?


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> Although I follow where you are trying to go with this, there is a big difference IMO between getting money from a female bank teller and having an actual friendship (unless this bank teller is slipping me extra money  ). No one is saying that you can't talk to the OS, just that you need to have boundaries (or maybe more important understand how easily you can maintain your boundaries, which will vary from person to person). If someone understands that maybe they have a harder time enforcing their boundaries, then shouldn't they be extra careful?



I'm
Really not being snarky. My x cheated with a co worker not a friend and yes she had major boundary and character issues. But that is my point that if you can't control yourself in one situation how do you have confidence you can control yourself in any situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> I'm
> Really not being snarky. My x cheated with a co worker not a friend and yes she had major boundary and character issues. But that is my point that if you can't control yourself in one situation how do you have confidence you can control yourself in any situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not all situations are created equal.Hopefully the person understands that and adjusts their behavior. For example, if someone says that they have no issues controlling their actions/boundaries UNLESS there is alcohol involved, well then you adjust your behavior to hopefully avoid those situations.


----------



## Wolf1974

NextTimeAround said:


> This reminds me of a guy that I dated in college. I was sharing an apartment with a (female) friend. He spent the night. I had a class the next morning but he did not have any morning plans. And I being the nice person that I am told him that he could stay after I left, let himself out but remember to close and lock the window in my bedroom We were on the ground floor.
> 
> He neglected to close and lock the window. And then lectured me about how it didn't matter because if anyone wanted to burglaise our place, they would do it anyway......
> 
> these days, anyone who gives me a lecture has just chosen, inadvertently, to never again be a part of my life......
> 
> 1. so locking doors and windows don't make a difference ...... telling that to the insurance companies..
> 
> 2. being careful online doesn't matter, I guess, hackers are going to hack no matter how many times you change your PW........ ok, try to convince your bank that.......
> 
> 3. and cheaters are going to cheat........ Let's tighten that up...... Serial cheaters are going to cheat with the waitress, the bank teller and so on ....... as Wolfe says. I bet waitresses and bank tellers would not be happy to learn that you think that they -- as a group -- willing homewreckers. but I digress.
> 
> There are a lot accidental cheaters who just would not have done it if the opportunity had not arisen.


Wolfe ? how childish. 

Also your comparison is ridiculous and backwards. A comparisons of cheaters are going to cheat is not the same as comparison to lock a house it prevent burglaries. It's a comparison of saying a criminal burglar is going to commit a crime and get into your house if they really want to. Since I teach prevention of this that is actually very accurate. Deterrence is a system of placing as many obstructions between the burglar and his/her target. But no mater what you do things can be defeated and bypassed. If they really want to do it and make the choice to do it they will. Same with cheaters 

Accidental cheaters? What the heck is that. The fell into an affair? Affairs are choices and generally speaking a series of wrong choices .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> Not all situations are created equal.Hopefully the person understands that and adjusts their behavior. For example, if someone says that they have no issues controlling their actions/boundaries UNLESS there is alcohol involved, well then you adjust your behavior to hopefully avoid those situations.


This is true and I have no issue with how you are presenting it. Just curious for those who say no choice is involved. Well then wouldn't it stand that they couldn't make the right choice in any situation. I mean ultimately aren't we really talking about character here. 

I have no issue with anyone or any couple who makes the choice to not have OSF. Just the holier than thou attitude sometimes associated from the other side of the argument Because to me it reads like this" when I drink alcohol I can't control myself from flirting with women, therefore that must happen to everyone so no one should drink alcohol "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman

Look, in the end, it boils down to what the partners in the relationship agree to and live with. This is one of those areas where that has to be an agreement, not just one of the parties going along for the ride. If each person isn’t 100% on board, or at least can live with the arrangement without resentment, the divide in the relationship will be deep. So if both partners are cool with OSF’s or at least can live with the friendship without resentment, then there is no issue, and the risks are what they are and the parties have to live with any consequences of their decisions. If both partners agree that there should be no OSF’s, then that’s cool too. It’s whatever works for the couple.

In my case, I am adamantly opposed to close, personal OSF’s in a long term committed relationship and for me it’s a deal breaker. For my wife, she doesn’t quite see it my way, but she has said that she can live with the arrangement without resentment. She didn’t have any male besties that she had to give up when we got married and she cut ties with most male acquaintances. She did have to adjust to not being able to have/make any male friends in the future. As for me, my close friends were all male and after marriage we weren’t as close any more. This “agreement” has worked for us for a long time with only one little test of it (sort of) several years ago. I can honestly say that I don’t think I could have married/stayed married to my wife if she had insisted on keeping a close male friend … and I’m willing to bet that if I developed a close friendship to a woman, she would have an issue. This is what works for us, it might not work for others.


----------



## jdawg2015

The more I read your posts the more I start to wonder if you get off on having your guy friend held in place and having power over him. Even how you refer to him almost seems as if you are dominant in the situation. For some reason there's women that like to have these kinds of situations.

I'm not the typical guy. I've travelled the world and been in situations that the average guy who just goes to home, the gym, and work won't encounter. I've been in both male and female dominated companies. So while you can bury your head if you were to know me in person you'd probably heed my advice. 

When you travel a lot you really see the test of boundaries and how people handle them. 

You are very idyllic. When you finally get burned by an OSF relationship you'll be too prideful to come back and tell us how the crow tasted.




spinsterdurga said:


> You mean unwillingness to consider what you're saying?
> 
> Calling me an attention ***** turned everything you said afterwards into a joke.
> 
> 
> Anyway, I don't get the issue. I have the right to not want to be with someone who is against my relationship with my best friend. A man who is against it isn't compatible with me. I've always mentioned it on the first two dates.
> 
> 
> Some people think that not having an OSF is a preemptive measure against cheating. I disagree. If your spouse wants to cheat, they're going to cheat. I mean there are people here who cheated or have been cheated on with people who were not their spouse's friend.
> 
> I have boundaries with my friend whether I'm in a relationship or not is irrelevant since I won't date/sleep with him. I wrote in previous pages that I ended a friendship with a guy who had feelings for me. I'd do the same with my best friend if he had feelings for me.
> 
> You want me to consider ending/restricting contacts with him because he has a penis.
> 
> 
> Anyway, everyone should do whatever works for them.


----------



## southbound

Wolf1974 said:


> So while this boggles the mind I will ask this question that I asked in the last thread about this subject that went pretty much the same way. So if you won't have OSF because you feel you may loose control what do you do about the female co-worker, the female bank teller, the service waitress. I mean just as many affairs start that way as OSF that probably were never really friends in the first place. So do you just not go out? Are you not allowed to talk to them? Cheaters are going to cheat that is the only really FACT here and cheaters will find a way if that is the intention they are going for


Honestly, I don't not believe in OSFs because I think I will l will lose control, it's just not the way things are done in my town. It's just considered tacky. People know what can happen when the opposite sex gets together, but I guess we just aren't as culturally advanced as other areas. 

As for the waitress and bank teller, I don't have a relationship with them other than money transactions and getting food. I might notice they are attractive, but I'm not going to attack somebody over the roast beef platter just because I notice she's physically attractive. As we all know, there is more to attraction than just looks. Attraction usually gets deeper when two people start to have a relationship of some kind. 
If I don't have a relationship with a woman, I may just notice they are physically attractive and that's it. However, if I start talking, sharing interests, and hanging out, that could deepen the feelings.


----------



## NoChoice

Wolf1974 said:


> So while this boggles the mind I will ask this question that I asked in the last thread about this subject that went pretty much the same way. So if you won't have OSF because you feel you may loose control what do you do about the female co-worker, the female bank teller, the service waitress. I mean just as many affairs start that way as OSF that probably were never really friends in the first place. So do you just not go out? Are you not allowed to talk to them? *Cheaters are going to cheat* that is the only really FACT here and cheaters will find a way if that is the intention they are going for


That does not sound like they have a choice.



Wolf1974 said:


> This is true and I have no issue with how you are presenting it. Just curious for those who say no choice is involved. *Well then wouldn't it stand that they couldn't make the right choice in any situation*. I mean ultimately aren't we really talking about character here.
> 
> I have no issue with anyone or any couple who makes the choice to not have OSF. Just the holier than thou attitude sometimes associated from the other side of the argument Because to me it reads like this" when I drink alcohol I can't control myself from flirting with women, therefore that must happen to everyone so no one should drink alcohol "
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Many cannot. However, there are more variables at play especially when instinctual urges are involved. For instance, if one is tempted to steal something that does not belong to them would they be more tempted to steal a staple gun or food? And let us assume, for the sake of this question, that they have little use for a staple gun but they are very, very hungry.

So, the allure of the staple gun may be insufficient motivation for them to risk being caught but the gnawing pain in their stomach may be sufficient to urge them to take food. There are many layers of complexity involved.

However, for some even the allure of an item they really do not need is sufficient to make them "choose" to do wrong. There thought process is flawed.


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> Honestly, I don't not believe in OSFs because I think I will l will lose control, it's just not the way things are done in my town. It's just considered tacky. People know what can happen when the opposite sex gets together, but I guess we just aren't as culturally advanced as other areas.
> 
> As for the waitress and bank teller, I don't have a relationship with them other than money transactions and getting food. I might notice they are attractive, but I'm not going to attack somebody over the roast beef platter just because I notice she's physically attractive. As we all know, there is more to attraction than just looks. Attraction usually gets deeper when two people start to have a relationship of some kind.
> If I don't have a relationship with a woman, I may just notice they are physically attractive and that's it. However, if I start talking, sharing interests, and hanging out, that could deepen the feelings.


It is interesting how different people live in different areas of the country and have different experiences, I can't think of a person I know who doesn't have OSF. Now the level of those vary but everyone I know of or at least can think of sitting here has them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

NoChoice said:


> That does not sound like they have a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> Many cannot. However, there are more variables at play especially when instinctual urges are involved. For instance, if one is tempted to steal something that does not belong to them would they be more tempted to steal a staple gun or food? And let us assume, for the sake of this question, that they have little use for a staple gun but they are very, very hungry.
> 
> So, the allure of the staple gun may be insufficient motivation for them to risk being caught but the gnawing pain in their stomach may be sufficient to urge them to take food. There are many layers of complexity involved.
> 
> However, for some even the allure of an item they really do not need is sufficient to make them "choose" to do wrong. There thought process is flawed.


Completely disagree

Making a wrong choice is just that a choice. Yes you could argue extremes of mental illness where they don't process information the same way but I'm not referring to the extreme. I am talking about the choices we all make every day. Our character is the sum total of the choices we make in life . Cheating is a choice. And yes it can be a choice to realize your own weakness to avoid situations such as having a OSF. But that doesn't change that just because some people can't handle that the others have no issue with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> We are different .. That's kinda my point. I have had these friends prior to meeting my GF. I was single when they were and had many a drunk night. Never anything happened because we were friends only and still are. If I thought they were hot and I wanted them I wouldn't be able to have them as friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> Why?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why what? Wouldn't I be a friend with someone I secretly wanted to date instead? Because then we wouldn't really be friends. I would be the guy in the friends zone. No thanks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Why what? Wouldn't I be a friend with someone I secretly wanted to date instead? Because then we wouldn't really be friends. I would be the guy in the friends zone. No thanks
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, why can't you be friends with someone who's hot?

There are many hot women that I don't want to date, or choose not to. But they're still cool people that I like as friends.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> No, why can't you be friends with someone who's hot?
> 
> There are many hot women that I don't want to date, or choose not to. But they're still cool people that I like as friends.


Really? Well guess we are different again. If I have the hots and sexual feelings toward them then by my definition we aren't friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Aspydad

Wolf1974 said:


> So while this boggles the mind I will ask this question that I asked in the last thread about this subject that went pretty much the same way. So if you won't have OSF because you feel you may loose control what do you do about the female co-worker, the female bank teller, the service waitress. I mean just as many affairs start that way as OSF that probably were never really friends in the first place. So do you just not go out? Are you not allowed to talk to them? Cheaters are going to cheat that is the only really FACT here and cheaters will find a way if that is the intention they are going for


I actually have a women in my office that has tried to get close with me beyond work. She is very attractive (since I am not dead yet, I do notice this even though I am happily married) and if I was not taken - and she was not taken, I certainly would pursue her. Due to my position, we do interact two to three times a week and spend time together. She used to always ask about my kids and wife which I thought was fine - but, then she started bringing things that were happening in her life (she would talk bad about her husband) into our conversations - and to me, I really did not feel comfortable discussing personal things with her - so I have completely shut this down - I can just sense there is a mutual attraction between us - even though we are both married - so I, by choice, have shut this down as I know - I need boundaries. 

AS I stated earlier - I don't think that a married person should have a close personal relationship with the opposite sex when they are married.

I will say - my wife is probably not good at setting those boundaries. She is a school teacher - and I know for a fact that she discusses personal things with members of the opposite sex - and she does form a bond with them at work. But, she does not go out with them alone - does not communicate with them after work - although one guy did try to do this - I told her not to respond and to just discuss at work - and she agreed. My wife lives with her iPhone attached to her - and she keeps the sound on just in case one our girls needs her - so I know whenever she gets a message. Some things are just not appropriate and she does understand boundaries are important - she just has a hard time not connecting on a very personnel level with the people she works with - it is just in her nature.


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Really? Well guess we are different again. If I have the hots and sexual feelings toward them then by my definition we aren't friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being friends with hot women was my primary dating strategy and taught me more about women than dating ever did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## southbound

Wolf1974 said:


> It is interesting how different people live in different areas of the country and have different experiences, I can't think of a person I know who doesn't have OSF. Now the level of those vary but everyone I know of or at least can think of sitting here has them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cultural differences in different areas interest me too. I think that's why we often have such debate with various topics here. There are certain things done a certain way in our culture, and I guess we assume everybody gets it. So, we make one post explaining ourselves and think everybody gets it. Them we end up repeating ourselves, scratching our heads, and feeling puzzled that others don't understand. I guess this is one of those topics.

As for nobody you know not having OSFs, do you mean that they all at some point will be with that person without their spouse at an activity, eating out, and calling them up to chat? 

I'm not saying that I ignore all women who are married. I have a lot of married women that I am around that I consider as a friend, but I don't go out with them alone and get all chummy with them. For example, I like going to concerts. If I discovered that one of my female friends loved concerts and her husband hated them, and I asked if she wanted to attend one with me, she would consider that inappropriate, and I assure you her husband wouldn't care for it either. That's just not how things are done in my area. Heck, teenagers who are dating don't even do that here. 

Some people said they didn't consider what they did with their OSFs to be date-like. I live in a rural area, and going to the movies and out to eat is date-like in my town. 

I also mentioned once that you don't see people together with someone besides their spouse and hear that they are just friends. I will say, however, that I have seen people out with someone besides their spouse, and it's not long until I hear, "Oh, he cheated on his wife with her, they're getting divorced."


----------



## NoChoice

Wolf1974 said:


> Completely disagree
> 
> Making a wrong choice is just that a choice. Yes you could argue extremes of mental illness where they don't process information the same way but I'm not referring to the extreme. I am talking about the choices we all make every day. Our character is the sum total of the choices we make in life . Cheating is a choice. And yes it can be a choice to realize your own weakness to avoid situations such as having a OSF. But that doesn't change that just because some people can't handle that the others have no issue with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you believe that, aside from people with mental illness, we all process information the same way?


----------



## notmyrealname4

---


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> It is interesting how different people live in different areas of the country and have different experiences, I can't think of a person I know who doesn't have OSF. Now the level of those vary but everyone I know of or at least can think of sitting here has them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the difference I see is that people around me who have OSFs, they are friends of the couple, not just specifically the guy or girl. If they were hanging out, it would be with the couple, not going out to dinner without the spouse. Hard to say though, all the people I am around are all married adults with youngish kids, so this probably makes more sense.


----------



## Wolf1974

marduk said:


> Being friends with hot women was my primary dating strategy and taught me more about women than dating ever did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I could never make that leap. If I was interests in a woman and she wasn't in me we parted ways. Not ok with being in the friends zone. I have learned some from my OSF though


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> I think the *difference* I see is that people around me who have OSFs, they are friends of the couple, not just specifically the guy or girl. If they were hanging out, it would be with the couple, not going out to dinner without the spouse. Hard to say though, all the people I am around are all married adults with youngish kids, so this probably makes more sense.


that is no difference that's exactly what I have also stated is they need to be friends of the relationship


----------



## Wolf1974

NoChoice said:


> Do you believe that, aside from people with mental illness, we all process information the same way?


Process no, understand the difference between right and Wrong yes


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> that is no difference that's exactly what I have also stated is they need to be friends of the relationship


Maybe we are crossing paths here. I got the impression you seem fine if let's say you went out to dinner with your OSF without your SO (even if she is a friend of the relationship). Not sure, but I think some here are interpreting OSF as someone you are spending time without outside of your relationship (regardless of whether or not they are a friend of the relationship itself)


----------



## Wolf1974

southbound said:


> Cultural differences in different areas interest me too. I think that's why we often have such debate with various topics here. There are certain things done a certain way in our culture, and I guess we assume everybody gets it. So, we make one post explaining ourselves and think everybody gets it. Them we end up repeating ourselves, scratching our heads, and feeling puzzled that others don't understand. I guess this is one of those topics.
> 
> As for nobody you know not having OSFs, do you mean that they all at some point will be with that person without their spouse at an activity, eating out, and calling them up to chat?
> *No not necessarily*
> I'm not saying that I ignore all women who are married. I have a lot of married women that I am around that I consider as a friend, but I don't go out with them alone and get all chummy with them. For example, I like going to concerts. If I discovered that one of my female friends loved concerts and her husband hated them, and I asked if she wanted to attend one with me, she would consider that inappropriate, and I assure you her husband wouldn't care for it either. That's just not how things are done in my area. Heck, teenagers who are dating don't even do that here.
> *So this is a good example of difference then because I would ask and yes he husband would be ok with it. However we don't share the same taste in music and her husband does so that wouldn't work for me but I do get your point :grin2:*
> 
> Some people said they didn't consider what they did with their OSFs to be date-like. I live in a rural area, and going to the movies and out to eat is date-like in my town.
> *Maybe that's the difference then, I live in a major metropolitan area and happens here all the time *
> I also mentioned once that you don't see people together with someone besides their spouse and hear that they are just friends. I will say, however, that I have seen people out with someone besides their spouse, and it's not long until I hear, "Oh, he cheated on his wife with her, they're getting divorced."


*Hmmm. I'm not disputing that sometimes an affair can start from a friendship but most I know of personally were actually co-worker situations or bar hookups /one night stands. Could also be a difference in our area *


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> Maybe we are crossing paths here. I got the impression you seem fine if let's say you went out to dinner with your OSF without your SO (even if she is a friend of the relationship). Not sure, but I think some here are interpreting OSF as someone you are spending time without outside of your relationship (regardless of whether or not they are a friend of the relationship itself)


I do. Last time we had dinner was months ago my Gf was busy with Boy Scouts and her husband was working late. Text came in, I have the kids and we are going to itz's. (Like a chucky cheese) want to come, sure meet you there. We all ate, kids played, we left. 

My gf and my friend have hung out. I go fishing with my friends husband. We are all friends of each other


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> I do. Last time we had dinner was months ago my Gf was busy with Boy Scouts and her husband was working late. Text came in, I have the kids and we are going to itz's. (Like a chucky cheese) want to come, sure meet you there. We all ate, kids played, we left.
> 
> My gf and my friend have hung out. I go fishing with my friends husband. We are all friends of each other


OK, so that lines up with my post of where I see the difference. The people I know around me would not go out with an OSF without their spouse.

Not saying one way is right and one is wrong, just what I notice on my side of the coast


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> OK, so that lines up with my post of where I see the difference. The people I know around me would not go out with an OSF without their spouse.
> 
> Not saying one way is right and one is wrong, just what I notice on my side of the coast


But you also said they need to be friends of the couple My friends are that so that's where I said we have no difference :wink2:


----------



## WonkyNinja

EllisRedding said:


> Maybe we are crossing paths here. I got the impression you seem fine if let's say you went out to dinner with your OSF without your SO (even if she is a friend of the relationship). Not sure, but I think some here are interpreting OSF as someone you are spending time without outside of your relationship (regardless of whether or not they are a friend of the relationship itself)


My interpretation of OSF is Opposite Sex Friend. Similar to a same sex friend (SSF) but of the opposite sex. If we meet in the evening it will most likely be with our respective SO as a 4 but if we meet for lunch then we get away from work and have lunch.

I would most probably greet my SSF with a handshake or a hug but I would greet my OSF with a hug, shaking hands with an OSF would just be weird.

If my OSF texts or messages me then I'd text or message back. My wife knows all my friends, she hasn't met them all yet but we're getting there, and she knows when and where we would be meeting. If she were nearby then she'd join us for lunch and greet us both with a hug, hopefully I'd get a kiss as well.

I wouldn't go bad mouthing my spouse or sharing intimate relationship details to a same sex friend nor would I to an OSF. 

That is how I'd define friends. A date is totally different.


----------



## WonkyNinja

NoChoice said:


> Do you believe that, aside from people with mental illness, we all process information the same way?


Oh G*d I hope not. This would be a very boring and uncreative world if we all processed information the same way. I think we all process the same information differently. 

Just look at America at the moment, some people hear Donald Trump speak and think he is the future others hear the same speech and think it's like pre WWII Germany repeating itself.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Wolf1974 said:


> I do. Last time we had dinner was months ago my Gf was busy with Boy Scouts and her husband was working late. Text came in, I have the kids and we are going to itz's. (Like a chucky cheese) want to come, sure meet you there. We all ate, kids played, we left.
> 
> My gf and my friend have hung out. I go fishing with my friends husband. We are all friends of each other


You are a good man. 

Any friend of mine inviting me to Chuck Cheese would be dining alone, not because I wouldn't want to meet an OSF but because I couldn't deal with the headache that follows a visit to Chuck E Cheese. :grin2:


----------



## WonkyNinja

southbound said:


> I'm not saying that I ignore all women who are married. I have a lot of married women that I am around that I consider as a friend, but I don't go out with them alone and get all chummy with them. For example, I like going to concerts. If I discovered that one of my female friends loved concerts and her husband hated them, and I asked if she wanted to attend one with me, she would consider that inappropriate, and I assure you her husband wouldn't care for it either. That's just not how things are done in my area. Heck, teenagers who are dating don't even do that here.


I enjoy concerts but some of the bands I like my wife doesn't, even so she'll come with me. If an OSF offered to go with me to a concert that she doesn't like she'd probably celebrate and give my OSF a big kiss. :smile2:


----------



## Wolf1974

WonkyNinja said:


> You are a good man.
> 
> Any friend of mine inviting me to Chuck Cheese would be dining alone, not because I wouldn't want to meet an OSF but because I couldn't deal with the headache that follows a visit to Chuck E Cheese. :grin2:


Hey the **** we do for our kids right. Lol


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> The more I read your posts the more I start to wonder if you get off on having your guy friend held in place and having power over him. Even how you refer to him almost seems as if you are dominant in the situation. For some reason there's women that like to have these kinds of situations.
> 
> I'm not the typical guy. I've travelled the world and been in situations that the average guy who just goes to home, the gym, and work won't encounter. I've been in both male and female dominated companies. So while you can bury your head if you were to know me in person you'd probably heed my advice.
> 
> When you travel a lot you really see the test of boundaries and how people handle them.
> 
> You are very idyllic. When you finally get burned by an OSF relationship you'll be too prideful to come back and tell us how the crow tasted.


In deciding how much weight to attach to your life experiences, I have only what I have seen in this thread. And I don't see you listen or learn. Instead, you keep trying to steamroll with your dogma. When pushed you start to make concessions, then go back to pushing the same dogma. FACT. When I didn't fit your argument and you had nothing else left, you resorted to calling me Steve Urkle's nerdy sister. The fact that I don't feel as you do about sex apparently is not reason to reexamine whether your view is wrong or incomplete, it's proof that I am defective. I'm not the only one. You also personally attacked SpinsterDurga, calling her an attention ho. And just now, wondering if she gets off on the power she has.

You described yourself as alpha, and yes, I think this is alpha behaviour, but not in what I consider a good way. It doesn't sway me to your point of view. It causes me to assume that this behaviour of ignoring facts that don't fit your opinions is your modus operandi, and therefore that, even though you appear to be intelligent, your opinions may be shaped more by your preconceptions than your life lessons.

Others who share your basic view (Southbound and Middleman) are engaging with the discussion and developing ideas. NextTimeAround is offering some great examples from her life. I don't have to agree with their conclusions to appreciate their input and learn from them. Maybe you could do the same. For example, share some of the things you have seen while travelling? Maybe we could learn from your experiences? I'd just find that a more compelling argument from you.


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> But you also said they need to be friends of the couple My friends are that so that's where I said we have no difference :wink2:


Very true, probably wasn't completely where I was going but can see how it came across that way lol.


----------



## notmyrealname4

.


----------



## Wazza

Married but Happy said:


> Yes, I have that right. Why? Because we've talked about OSF, and agree about them. The risk is very minimal compared to the benefits.
> 
> Using your argument, you should never drive with your spouse in the car - actually, you should never drive at all, with our without your spouse! If you fail and have an accident, it's not just you that gets hurt. Do you have a right to expose your spouse to that risk as well as yourself?
> 
> Living you life based on the fear of what could happen isn't living your life. The only reason you do some things and not others is ignorance of the true risk exposure. Your risks from heavy drinking, smoking, eating raw oysters or undercooked food, etc. are far greater and even provide far less benefit than having OSF.
> 
> Let me add this: If you know you're a poor driver, then you should either not drive, or greatly limit your driving. If you're an alcoholic, you should avoid alcohol. If you have poor impulse control, you should avoid gambling. If you easily experience uncontrollable lust, or know you'd take an opportunity to cheat, you should avoid OSF other than in public settings with your spouse present - or not have any. It's not a simple yes/no decision - just as the other examples aren't. There is a spectrum of risk/reward, and you have to decide on your own balance based on your own tendencies and circumstances.


The risk is to be managed. We agree. Life is to be lived, and that involves some level of risk. Again we agree. 

The extra point I am making is, when you figure out what your boundaries are for managing the risk, consider assuming you might get them wrong, and err a little on the side of caution. It just gives you an extra failsafe if things don't go to plan. 

Because the risk, should it materialise, is devastating.


----------



## southbound

notmyrealname4 said:


> After reading the thread, a couple of things I suspected all along have been confirmed for me.
> 
> And that is that people DO have osf's that they KNOW are sexually attractive. It's just that they "enforce boundaries" and "control themselves", in order to prevent the relationship going physical at some point.
> 
> For me that's enough. If my H hangs out with a woman, who he readily admits is good looking, and that he notices it all the time when he is with her; end of story. I don't want my husband getting a charged, sexy feeling from spending time with other women.
> 
> I believe it was @spinsterdurga at some point who said "why would it bother me if my osf was sexually attracted to me". I'm paraphrasing, but that was the general gist of the statement.
> 
> So, I think these relationships serve as a stroke to the sexual ego. "I hang out with attractive people other than my SO". Yes, so there's always a bit of a "charge" in the air. The charge of sexual tension.
> 
> If there is zero sexual attraction; well, you can only claim that from *your* side. You don't know what the other person is thinking, you just don't. And if you admit that the other person might be attracted to you, and so what? Then I think you love the attention and idea of getting lots of sexual attention from as many people of the opposite sex as you can.
> 
> If you both are single, that's harmless for the most part. But if either one of you are in a relationship, it's disrespectful.
> 
> If you are a very physically unattractive person. Or if your osf is very physically unattractive; that might be an exception. We're not talking about exceptions, we're talking about the general rule.


Very well put. I've come to the same conclusion: People DO have osf's that they KNOW are sexually attractive. It's just that they "enforce boundaries" and "control themselves", in order to prevent the relationship going physical at some point.

Why would you want your husband hanging out with a woman if he's getting a bit of a charge of sexual tension, even if he is enforcing boundaries and controlling himself? I understand that completely. 

I have to take people's word for it, but it's difficult for me to understand finding a woman interesting enough that a guy wants to be with her, but there is zero sexual attraction, and I doubt that a lot of people's OSFs are ugly. 

I understand that we aren't all attracted to the same thing, I get that, but there are people that tend to appeal to a wider audience of the opposite sex than others. If a guy hangs out with a woman that he thinks is great, they have common interests, enjoy each other's company, and she happens to look and dress like Eva Longoria, it's just difficult for me to imagine that there isn't some sexual tension with the guy, even if he does control it; and why would a woman want her husband to be around that? I just thought that is how humans were wired. 

As I said before, there is more to a relationship and sexual desire than one's looks; I guess that might be all someone cares about if they are just looking for a one-night stand, but the enjoyment of the interaction and communication would do more to charge the sexual tension for me than just the looks. So, if a woman is physically attractive, and then I start hanging out with her and enjoying myself with her, that's probably just going to lead to deeper feelings. I'm probably one of the most appropriate acting guys around women that you will ever meet, but I'm just being honest, I'm not denying what i thought was natural feelings between the opposite sexes.

I agree with your assessment; it creates sexual tension, and it's a stroke to the sexual ego because you can hang out with an attractive person other than your spouse.


----------



## Wazza

notmyrealname4 said:


> @Wazza
> 
> jdawg has linked to outside sources,_ and_ shared some of his life experiences.


You make a fair counterpoint, and I want to respond, but I don't want to get into a protracted discussion about Jdawg. 

My fundamental issue is the insistence that all guys just want sex, when I know it's not true because I know myself. Combined with what I see as attacks on those who disagree. (I tried not to make my post attacking, but it was hard).

Or take the first of his 65 interesting facts. 


> A 2011 study found that in half of the patients admitted to the hospital for fractured penises, they occurred during an affair. Researchers believe that a man may be extra excited during an affair and he may be having sex in an awkward place.


If you follow the references, you don't get to anything scientific. It's pop. If the link at the bottom of the referenced article had been the study discussed, rather than "7 Surprising reasons for erectile dysfunction" I would take it more seriously. Other "facts" in that list cite such authorative sources as Woman's Day, the Huffington Post, and a certain well known cheating website that TAM won't let me name. 

But you are right. I still think he hasn't made his argument, but he has done more than I gave him credit for. Thank you for making the point.


----------



## WonkyNinja

Wolf1974 said:


> Hey the **** we do for our kids right. Lol


I know. It's not so much the noise it's the "Daddy, daddy look at the toy I got for free with all my tickets" and the Mom and Dad close to tears looking at the 25c toy that just cost $20+ in plays!!


----------



## norajane

southbound said:


> Cultural differences in different areas interest me too. I think that's why we often have such debate with various topics here. There are certain things done a certain way in our culture, and I guess we assume everybody gets it. So, we make one post explaining ourselves and think everybody gets it. Them we end up repeating ourselves, scratching our heads, and feeling puzzled that others don't understand. I guess this is one of those topics.
> 
> As for nobody you know not having OSFs, do you mean that they all at some point will be with that person without their spouse at an activity, eating out, and calling them up to chat?


In my world, yes. I don't know anyone who goes to movies, to be honest, but I would invite my OSFs over to my place to watch Game of Thrones whether my fiance was here or not. My fiance gets together with his OSFs at his place or theirs as well.

We might grab a bite every now and then with an OSF friend without our partners, but getting food is not seen as a "date" around here, because it's a big city and eating out is common and nothing to write home about. I would go to lunch with co-worker friends without a second's thought, and do the same for dinners and whatnot during business trips and conferences. My fiance does the same.

These are not secret OSFs; they have been in our live "forever" and will continue to be. These are not secret meetings; there is nothing secret about them. Sometimes our OSFs join us when we are together, and sometimes when we are alone. 

It really, really, really isn't anything more than friendships and no one thinks they are anything more than that. No conflict whatsoever. This is how it's been years and years, no anxiety on anyone's part because there is nothing to be anxious about. I mean, these are people who have spare keys to our homes and vice versa; these friends have become family over the years.


----------



## southbound

norajane said:


> In my world, yes. I don't know anyone who goes to movies, to be honest, but I would invite my OSFs over to my place to watch Game of Thrones whether my fiance was here or not. My fiance gets together with his OSFs at his place or theirs as well.
> 
> We might grab a bite every now and then with an OSF friend without our partners, but getting food is not seen as a "date" around here, because it's a big city and eating out is common and nothing to write home about. I would go to lunch with co-worker friends without a second's thought, and do the same for dinners and whatnot during business trips and conferences. My fiance does the same.
> 
> These are not secret OSFs; they have been in our live "forever" and will continue to be. These are not secret meetings; there is nothing secret about them. Sometimes our OSFs join us when we are together, and sometimes when we are alone.
> 
> It really, really, really isn't anything more than friendships and no one thinks they are anything more than that. No conflict whatsoever. This is how it's been years and years, no anxiety on anyone's part because there is nothing to be anxious about. I mean, these are people who have spare keys to our homes and vice versa; these friends have become family over the years.


To each his own I suppose. If it has worked for you and yours for years, I can't argue with your specific situation. Personally, I don't have any women friends that have always been in my life that I hang out with alone and enjoy going to activities alone with; if there were, I'd probably be dating or married to them. So, I guess that's one difference. My way makes perfect sense to me due to having grown up in that lifestyle and it continuing to be the culture where I'm from, but I know it can't be explained so that others understand.

When something is so different in various ways of life, some often think it comes with a struggle to be that way. I'm sure some think, "Wow, nobody in your town has OSFs that they occasionally hang out with alone? How do you manage that?" 
They probably think we have "Say No to OSFs" on all our billboards and teach it as part of the curriculum in school, but it's not something that is drilled into our heads, it's just the norm where I'm from. My parent's didn't sit me down and have an OSF discussion when I was growing up or before I married, but it's just the way everyone is here. I guess you could say it just "goes without saying."


----------



## Marduk

Wolf1974 said:


> Yeah I could never make that leap. If I was interests in a woman and she wasn't in me we parted ways. Not ok with being in the friends zone. I have learned some from my OSF though


When I split from my ex wife, I purposefully made friends with some really smart, tough, cool women. Because they could really help me grok wtf was going on with me, and with what women wanted. 

And some of them were hot, really hot. But they were either dating friends of mine, or other guys. But as I clued into the value of these kinds of relationships, I kept expanding the circle. And specifically didn't try to sleep with them. I friend zoned myself. Because I was getting a lot of value from the friendships, but also because I realized that if a woman likes you as a friend, and you're single, she's gonna try to hook you up with all her single friends.

Hell, I even had some of these friends that were girls tell me exactly how to ask out these girls, how to get them into the sack, and what they liked there. Because girls seem to share everything.

Holy crap I learned a lot. And as long as I was really honest, and didn't try to be a ****, it kept happening. I would be honest about not wanting a serious relationship. I would be honest about dating multiple women. I would break up with women really forthrightly -- and often get advice on how to do it.

And it was all super awesome.


----------



## jdawg2015

I'll reply later to this I'm surfing web in airport and pain to type on phone. It's also why my posts always have so many typos 

My premise is many on here that are pro OSF have not been tested as much as they think on boundaries and too much time and contact even the mighty can fall. Seen it so many times.

I'll give you exact examples of what I've seen and dealt with in my life and working career.



Wazza said:


> notmyrealname4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Wazza
> 
> jdawg has linked to outside sources,_ and_ shared some of his life experiences.
> 
> 
> 
> You make a fair counterpoint, and I want to respond, but I don't want to get into a protracted discussion about Jdawg.
> 
> My fundamental issue is the insistence that all guys just want sex, when I know it's not true because I know myself. Combined with what I see as attacks on those who disagree. (I tried not to make my post attacking, but it was hard).
> 
> Or take the first of his 65 interesting facts.
> 
> 
> 
> A 2011 study found that in half of the patients admitted to the hospital for fractured penises, they occurred during an affair. Researchers believe that a man may be extra excited during an affair and he may be having sex in an awkward place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you follow the references, you don't get to anything scientific. It's pop. If the link at the bottom of the referenced article had been the study discussed, rather than "7 Surprising reasons for erectile dysfunction" I would take it more seriously. Other "facts" in that list cite such authorative sources as Woman's Day, the Huffington Post, and a certain well known cheating website that TAM won't let me name.
> 
> But you are right. I still think he hasn't made his argument, but he has done more than I gave him credit for. Thank you for making the point.
Click to expand...


----------



## Married but Happy

Wazza said:


> The risk is to be managed. We agree. Life is to be lived, and that involves some level of risk. Again we agree.
> 
> The extra point I am making is, when you figure out what your boundaries are for managing the risk, consider assuming you might get them wrong, and *err a little on the side of caution*. It just gives you an extra failsafe if things don't go to plan.
> 
> Because the risk, should it materialise, is devastating.


Absolutely! We do err on the side of caution.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

You're young. You'll learn.

Patience grasshopper.



spinsterdurga said:


> Well well @notmyrealname4 I actually said in my answer above what you just quoted.. So what was the point? I see you don't have anything else to say .


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

southbound said:


> Very well put. I've come to the same conclusion: People DO have osf's that they KNOW are sexually attractive. It's just that they "enforce boundaries" and "control themselves", in order to prevent the relationship going physical at some point.
> 
> Why would you want your husband hanging out with a woman if he's getting a bit of a charge of sexual tension, even if he is enforcing boundaries and controlling himself? I understand that completely.
> 
> I have to take people's word for it, but it's difficult for me to understand finding a woman interesting enough that a guy wants to be with her, but there is zero sexual attraction, and I doubt that a lot of people's OSFs are ugly.


It's not the wrestling match it sounds, put aside the ego and this isn't hard at all.



southbound said:


> I understand that we aren't all attracted to the same thing, I get that, but there are people that tend to appeal to a wider audience of the opposite sex than others. If a guy hangs out with a woman that he thinks is great, they have common interests, enjoy each other's company, and she happens to look and dress like Eva Longoria, it's just difficult for me to imagine that there isn't some sexual tension with the guy, even if he does control it; and why would a woman want her husband to be around that? I just thought that is how humans were wired.


So, are poor behaviors resulting from sexual tension the result of poor wiring, or is poor wiring the cause of poor behavior from sexual tension?

There is that dreaded "Choice" word again...




southbound said:


> As I said before, there is more to a relationship and sexual desire than one's looks; I guess that might be all someone cares about if they are just looking for a one-night stand, but the enjoyment of the interaction and communication would do more to charge the sexual tension for me than just the looks. So, if a woman is physically attractive, and then I start hanging out with her and enjoying myself with her, that's probably just going to lead to deeper feelings. I'm probably one of the most appropriate acting guys around women that you will ever meet, but I'm just being honest, I'm not denying what i thought was natural feelings between the opposite sexes.
> 
> I agree with your assessment; it creates sexual tension, and it's a stroke to the sexual ego because you can hang out with an attractive person other than your spouse.


Natural feelings have their place, if sexual tension is that overwhelming hanging with an OSF then what is missing to create such a thing that you would need to fill that desire in such a way?

I am sure we are better than this even if we do not act better than this... not sure why we are so often insecure and with little faith in ourselves.


----------



## jdawg2015

You are assuming I have to prove my opinion and how I view you. I don't. I've seen some women who seem to have power over guys such that if you tell them jump they do it. Not for me to explain it but I've seen the dynamic before. Especially if a women is better looking than the guy can typically get. So she gets to have lot of power over him. It's called the beta orbiter.

I've been around more than you and you just have to live with the fact that others have seen , been exposed too, and heard more than you. You can choose to ignore what people are telling you. That's on you.

I will reply to wazza later with more info that he asked for.

By the way, as you've come to find out people took exception to being called insecure. And even had someone spell out in a post how that was a wrong description and label.




spinsterdurga said:


> jdawg2015 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're young. You'll learn.
> 
> 
> 
> Patience grasshopper.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha that's the best you can come up with?
Click to expand...


----------



## NextTimeAround

norajane said:


> In my world, yes. I don't know anyone who goes to movies, to be honest, but I would invite my OSFs over to my place to watch Game of Thrones whether my fiance was here or not. My fiance gets together with his OSFs at his place or theirs as well.
> 
> *We might grab a bite every now and then with an OSF friend without our partners,* but getting food is not seen as a "date" around here, because it's a big city and eating out is common and nothing to write home about. I would go to lunch with co-worker friends without a second's thought, and do the same for dinners and whatnot during business trips and conferences. My fiance does the same.
> 
> *These are not secret OSFs; * Because, of course, it's better to hide in plain sight they have been in our live "forever" and will continue to be. These are not secret meetings; there is nothing secret about them. Sometimes our OSFs join us when we are together, and sometimes when we are alone.
> 
> It really, really, really isn't anything more than friendships and no one thinks they are anything more than that. No conflict whatsoever. This is how it's been years and years, no anxiety on anyone's part because there is nothing to be anxious about. I mean, these are people who have spare keys to our homes and vice versa; these friends have become family over the years.


I used to be more open-minded like that as well. But then I noticed that women, sometimes women who started life as my friend but they met my husband, would be come dismissive of me. Would only want to make plans with my husband. Two, one whom I met on my own and the other a former co-worker (of 6 months) of my exH, told me that they only want to makes plans if my husband was joining.

At the time, I wondered if I was doing something wrong. Yeah, kind of, I was being too accommodating. When I looked at how other women behaved with their husbands, I was obviously missing something. 

For example, I was friends with a woman and we had done some double dates. She was married and I had a boyfriend. I noticed that just going to the theatre / cinema a challenge of logistics. I noticed that while she was cool sitting next to my boyfriend, she did not want me anywhere near her husband. 

At one point I got an interview with her husband's employer. When I asked if I could chat with him about the company, she immediately dismissed it with "there's nothing useful he can tell you." 

OTOH, when I went away for a week, she asked me for my bf's contact details so that she invite him to dinner with her and husband. now why couldn't her husband send me that e-mail.

For the record, that was 2005 to 2006 that these things were happening. Since I know her through an expat, I know that they are still together and had a child about 7 years ago.


----------



## Personal

jdawg2015 said:


> My premise is many on here that are pro OSF have not been tested as much as they think on boundaries and too much time and contact even the mighty can fall. Seen it so many times.


Tested, hmmm let's see...

Here are a few examples.

1994 I'm with my third longest term sexual relationship partner at a university graduation dinner and pub after party. Through that night a few different women approach me some of them offered to snog me while two of them just ask if I want to f**k them (if I were unattached, I would have had sex with the pair). Attractive though they were I turn them down (even though I was drinking plenty of alcohol) because it's poor form to do otherwise.

1998 I've been dating my now wife for 2 years I live in an inner city share household of which I am hardly there, because outside of work I am mostly at my future wife's place. Anyway we have a new housemate who happens to be an attractive Japanese woman who is staying in Australia for a year. I am home and in my room she knocks on the door and asks if she can look at my music, after awhile she then asks why haven't I made a pass at her, she then asks me to have sex with her. I tell her no thanks I'm not interested (if I were unattached I would have had sex with her). She then tells me I'm gay, I laugh... she leaves my room, not long afterwards I tell my girlfriend, mostly because I thought it was funny she said I was gay.

It is also worth noting that from 1996 through to the first half of 2004 because of my Army service, it was not uncommon for me to often spend weeks through months away at a time from my now wife, and again although sometimes faced with offers and opportunity I always turned them down.

2004 I was playing a stay at home dad for a bit where I made friends with this woman (she was attractive and I liked her) from playgroup. So we set up a play date for my kids and her son, I turn up to her house she shows me around her very large place and then shows me her bedroom reveals some flesh and asks if I want to. I turn her down (if I were unattached, I would have had sex with her), she shrugs, I end the play date soon after that and choose not to see her again.

And on and on etc with me still sometimes traveling for a few days through to a week at a time.

I figure following 27 years of frequent explicit testing, all while being inebriated or sober my wife has nothing to worry about. That said if I want to cheat on my wife I will do exactly that (without being so hard up that I need to make an arse of myself with my platonic friends), since I choose not to cheat I don't, it is really is that simple.

Marital infidelity is always a choice, it never happens by accident!

At the end of the day following more than two decades of not cheating on any woman, I figure I'm not likely to start doing it now.

Other sex friends are a red herring, the only threat to marital fidelity is the married person who chooses to cheat. Absent the actual cheater there is no marital infidelity. The other friends premise is as ridiculous as someone saying: "It was an accident, I tripped over and my penis accidentally fell into her vagina repeatedly!"



jdawg2015 said:


> You're young. You'll learn.
> 
> Patience grasshopper.


I'm not young and have been around a lot of blocks, your claims are little more than hysterical hyperbole.


----------



## southbound

Emerging Buddhist said:


> So, are poor behaviors resulting from sexual tension the result of poor wiring, or is poor wiring the cause of poor behavior from sexual tension?


I never really thought of it as poor wiring. It's just my nature to be attracted to females; I assumed that was correct for all heterosexual males.



Emerging Buddhist said:


> Natural feelings have their place, if sexual tension is that overwhelming hanging with an OSF then what is missing to create such a thing that you would need to fill that desire in such a way?


Who knows, there could be something missing from some people's marriage. Would you recommend spending time with OSFs if that were the case? Suppose a marriage has become a little stale, that could make it more tricky. Or, what if a OSF is a super model and the wife is, not so much? Does that change anything? It's difficult to believe things are always ideal and the field is always equal? In other words, both the wife and the OSF are super models and the marriage is rock solid. Maybe that evens things, but I'll bet that's not always the case. 

I agree with the poster who said she believes it's a stroke to the sexual ego; they get a buzz from being able to hang out with other attractive people. I think the physical attraction is part of the enjoyment of having OSFs.

It's just difficult for me to imagine that a guy has a beautiful wife that he's madly in love with, but he likes spending time with a woman he thinks fell from an ugly tree and hit every limb on the way down just because they share an interest in the art museum.

Also difficult for me to believe that the OSF ranks higher than the wife in the physical attractiveness arena, but heck, he didn't notice, all he sees is a woman who loves white water rafting just like him.


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> It's called the beta orbiter.


I suspect the whole alpha / beta thing is one of your underpinnings, and it's an idea I don't agree with. I think there is some truth in it, but it isn't sophisticated enough, at least as normally described. For example, your firm belief that guys only hang with women they want to have sex with. I know guys like that, and it is good that women be aware (I know women like that too!) 

But it's not everyone. If you can't understand other motivations, how can you hold a complete view on the subject?



jdawg2015 said:


> I've been around more than you and you just have to live with the fact that others have seen , been exposed too, and heard more than you. You can choose to ignore what people are telling you. That's on you.


This is the alpha thing I commented on earlier coming out again.

I think I am about the same age or slightly older than you, so I have been around more. I have travelled. I have my own rich set of experiences spanning multiple careers and life circumstances.

I also, by the way, have a marriage that survived a protracted infidelity several years ago, giving me a keen focus on how to avoid affairs. (And answering the obvious question, no it wasn't an OSF that went too far. It was a professional relationship that suddenly became very unprofessional).

So, are we now on a p1ssing competition as to who has seen more? If I p1ss higher, would you abandon your opinions in favour of mine?

That was my central point before. I'm happy to consider facts you put forward, but I am not happy to believe what you say just because you say it.


----------



## Wazza

southbound said:


> Who knows, there could be something missing from some people's marriage. Would you recommend spending time with OSFs if that were the case? Suppose a marriage has become a little stale, that could make it more tricky. Or, what if a OSF is a super model and the wife is, not so much? Does that change anything? It's difficult to believe things are always ideal and the field is always equal? In other words, both the wife and the OSF are super models and the marriage is rock solid. Maybe that evens things, but I'll bet that's not always the case.


No one relationship can have everything. I think there will always be gaps in a marriage, and you are right, they create a potential vulnerability. It's something to be very careful about.

But you seem to focus on looks more than I do. When I am close to someone, I will find things I like about them. Their smile. Their eyes. Their laugh. The sound of their voice. And that's what I see. They don't have to be a supermodel to have real attraction, and a supermodel can quickly become ugly to me if all they have is "that look", particularly since it is often achieved by highly artificial means. May as well lust after a life size Barbie doll.

I wonder if that explains some of the differences in how we see things.

And a side question. If you are focussed on what the media tells us is beautiful, it typically include youth. How do you avoid the temptation to trade in on the younger hotter model if that is how you view the world?




southbound said:


> I agree with the poster who said she believes it's a stroke to the sexual ego; they get a buzz from being able to hang out with other attractive people. I think the physical attraction is part of the enjoyment of having OSFs.
> 
> It's just difficult for me to imagine that a guy has a beautiful wife that he's madly in love with, but he likes spending time with a woman he thinks fell from an ugly tree and hit every limb on the way down just because they share an interest in the art museum.
> 
> Also difficult for me to believe that the OSF ranks higher than the wife in the physical attractiveness arena, but heck, he didn't notice, all he sees is a woman who loves white water rafting just like him.


I get that stroke to the sexual ego when a woman is interested, but it's quite different from the OSF thing. If the two were combined for me, then I think I might feel exactly as you do about OSFs.

I'm saying this next bit to try and explain how I feel, not to invalidate how you feel. I think a lot of men and women probably feel as you do. But for me, approaching attraction as you describe it would feel shallow, and even cheap. Vaguely repugnant. It's just not how I am wired.

I guess it's the differences that make us interesting,


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## jdawg2015

It's my opinion of YOU.

Don't try and twist and contort. You'll lose.

And you'll one day realize that 45 is not old. Again, you'll learn. 

I would ask you some questions (like your upbring and if had two parents, etc) but your answers could not be trusted. I see many things in your posts but I'll let you see for yourself as you're unwilling to heed the advice of others.

OSF friendships are a minefield. Your "bestie" as you describe, and referring to him as an absolute package deal for any guy who comes along is going to create problems for you. It's like you are saying, "he's a part of me you must accept." That whole premise is wrong. You're not your own person if he is so integral to your life. I could write a lot about this topic alone but you have a childish tone and boring so I won't. 



spinsterdurga said:


> Ah as long as it's an opinion and not a fact you don't have to prove it. It's good you finally realized that what you're saying is an opinion and not a fact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who hasn't seen women like that? Who here doesn't know what a beta orbiter is? Teacher, I didn't learn anything from your post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL! Look, I get it you're old. Again, just because you're old doesn't mean that you're right. Sorry!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> 
> Someone wrote this: "If you are a very physically unattractive person. Or if your osf is very physically unattractive; that might be an exception. We're not talking about exceptions, we're talking about the general rule."
> 
> Hmmm OSFs are okay as long as one party is unattractive .


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

southbound said:


> I never really thought of it as poor wiring. It's just my nature to be attracted to females; I assumed that was correct for all heterosexual males.
> 
> Who knows, there could be something missing from some people's marriage. Would you recommend spending time with OSFs if that were the case? Suppose a marriage has become a little stale, that could make it more tricky. Or, what if a OSF is a super model and the wife is, not so much? Does that change anything? It's difficult to believe things are always ideal and the field is always equal? In other words, both the wife and the OSF are super models and the marriage is rock solid. Maybe that evens things, but I'll bet that's not always the case.
> 
> I agree with the poster who said she believes it's a stroke to the sexual ego; they get a buzz from being able to hang out with other attractive people. I think the physical attraction is part of the enjoyment of having OSFs.
> 
> It's just difficult for me to imagine that a guy has a beautiful wife that he's madly in love with, but he likes spending time with a woman he thinks fell from an ugly tree and hit every limb on the way down just because they share an interest in the art museum.
> 
> Also difficult for me to believe that the OSF ranks higher than the wife in the physical attractiveness arena, but heck, he didn't notice, all he sees is a woman who loves white water rafting just like him.




Attracted (you can choose the place where this applies) does not mean lustful... what I was trying to have considered in your post was that if sexual tension created poor boundaries and choices, and it is wiring, what can be done so that these things do not lead to such?

I am not sure why one couldn't put it aside with an OSF and enjoy the person within.

Ranks higher than the wife?

Really?

Sounds like quite a shallow way to place attractiveness... if you start comparing OSF's to your spouse then something seems amiss to me.

No, my wife is not on a pedestal, but I do give her the utmost respect, even when she is not at her best.

Comparing her to OSF's would be inconsiderate to us both.


----------



## Wazza

jdawg2015 said:


> Your "bestie" as you describe, and referring to him as an absolute package deal for any guy who comes along is going to create problems for you. It's like you are saying, "he's a part of me you must accept." That whole premise is wrong. You're not your own person if he is so integral to your life.


I don't think "the whole premise is wrong". But, like any choice, it has ramifications, and could easily create problems, as you say. They are worth considering carefully.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


----------



## southbound

Wazza said:


> But you seem to focus on looks more than I do. When I am close to someone, I will find things I like about them. Their smile. Their eyes. Their laugh. The sound of their voice. And that's what I see. They don't have to be a supermodel to have real attraction


I agree 100%. I only used the supermodel to use a term everyone could relate to meaning very attractive; everyone has their own opinion of what very attractive is, so everyone can fill in their own blank. 



Wazza said:


> , and a supermodel can quickly become ugly to me if all they have is "that look", particularly since it is often achieved by highly artificial means. May as well lust after a life size Barbie doll.


I agree again 100%. 



Wazza said:


> I wonder if that explains some of the differences in how we see things.


It helps.



Wazza said:


> I'm saying this next bit to try and explain how I feel, not to invalidate how you feel. I think a lot of men and women probably feel as you do. But for me, approaching attraction as you describe it would feel shallow, and even cheap. Vaguely repugnant. It's just not how I am wired.


I know, it's difficult to put into typed word what I'm really trying to say. I feel like I've explained it, but I come off sounding like a guy who can't have a conversation with a woman unless my tongue is on the floor and my eyes popped out of socket, which makes me seem like I behave very immaturely, and I really don't mean that at all; and it's difficult for me to get anything from the opposite opinion other than, "I see attractive women and I don't even notice; it's no different than if I'm hanging out with my 80 year old aunt," but I know that's not quite what the opposite opinion is either. 

I just know that deeper feelings can often creep up on people when they really weren't looking for it originally. As I've said before, looks alone doesn't mean everything, or anything for that matter unless someone is just looking for a one-nighter; and as you said, a supermodel can become ugly if looks is all she has. However, if they have a great personality, it's the communication, sharing interests, and getting to know them better that can generate and deepen the feelings. That's the way with dating. Usually, a person doesn't just meet someone and immediately want to get married. They like to get to know them first, share interests, and communicate.

As you said, I'm not trying to invalidate your views, but just trying to explain mine. 

Here i go with looks again, but i often picture a guy's wife at home in picture one, while he's having a bite of lunch with his OSF, which is number two.


----------



## jdawg2015

It's not just the looks but the personal connection and bonding. So that wifey who is at home doing the boring things of keeping up a household doesn't look as good as the chick who can do stuff with the hubby sans all the domestic duties.




southbound said:


> Here i go with looks again, but i often picture a guy's wife at home in picture one, while he's having a bite of lunch with his OSF, which is number two.


----------



## EleGirl

jdawg2015 said:


> Because I'm making my point that having boundaries is not being insecure. In fact is just shows I don't lower my standards or compromise my values.
> 
> I'm not sure why you want to have relationships with multiple men in your life if in a committed relationship. Maybe you're an attention ho?
> 
> For all the men I know, you aren't going to last. Hope bestie gives you that shoulder to cry on when yet another guy dumps you or you have your next break up.





jdawg2015 said:


> It's my opinion of YOU.
> 
> Don't try and twist and contort. You'll lose.
> 
> And you'll one day realize that 45 is not old. Again, you'll learn.
> 
> I would ask you some questions (like your upbring and if had two parents, etc) but your answers could not be trusted. I see many things in your posts but I'll let you see for yourself as you're unwilling to heed the advice of others.
> 
> OSF friendships are a minefield. Your "bestie" as you describe, and referring to him as an absolute package deal for any guy who comes along is going to create problems for you. It's like you are saying, "he's a part of me you must accept." That whole premise is wrong. You're not your own person if he is so integral to your life. I could write a lot about this topic alone but you have a childish tone and boring so I won't.


----------



## Personal

southbound said:


> Here i go with looks again, but i often picture a guy's wife at home in picture one, while he's having a bite of lunch with his OSF, which is number two.


I am not married to a women that resembles your first picture.

My wife (46) is an elegant, world traveled, bilingual, slim and tall career woman. Who has various tertiary qualifications including a STEM degree, that is employed in government senior-management roles.

My before mentioned friend (51) is an elegant, world traveled, slim and short career woman. Who also has various tertiary qualifications, and works in the social services field.

If I am having lunch with my friend absent my wife, it is likely my wife could be at lunch elsewhere with one or more of her friends, so perhaps you might instead picture the following.


----------



## Maricha75

Oh, jdawg, you are correct that 45 is not old. At (almost) 41, I can certainly attest to that. But spinsterdurga has a few 40somethings agreeing with her position. You made it sound like you were 60+, which doesn't mean you are unequivocally correct, mind you. 

Hopefully, this ban will help cool you off. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

Maricha75 said:


> Oh, jdawg, you are correct that 45 is not old. At (almost) 41, I can certainly attest to that. But spinsterdurga has a few 40somethings agreeing with her position. You made it sound like you were 60+, which doesn't mean you are unequivocally correct, mind you.


Age.......

I'm in my 50s. In some ways that means I have different values about gender roles, marriage and relationships to a 20-something. It seems like the60y have less notion of duty and obligation, and more notion of staying with the marriage while it is mutually satisfactory, than I was brought up with.

Which means, when people talk about hotter models, or the wife whose attraction is diminished because you deal with her for day to day business, my answer is "But that's not what you do. You stay committed because it's what you promised, not because it's the best offer currently on the table!"

That has some obvious impacts on what we are discussing. Does such an idea make me old?? (Hint, affordable options are to answer "no" it remain silent!)


----------



## Wazza

southbound said:


> I just know that deeper feelings can often creep up on people when they really weren't looking for it originally. As I've said before, looks alone doesn't mean everything, or anything for that matter unless someone is just looking for a one-nighter; and as you said, a supermodel can become ugly if looks is all she has. However, if they have a great personality, it's the communication, sharing interests, and getting to know them better that can generate and deepen the feelings.


This is the key point. I agre it's a danger. Not having OSF is one way to handle it. Not the only way IMO, but you may disagree. 

I think you see one on one with OSF as basically dating. Is that right? I don't (obviously) though I think you need to be careful.


----------



## southbound

Wazza said:


> This is the key point. I agre it's a danger. Not having OSF is one way to handle it. Not the only way IMO, but you may disagree.
> 
> I think you see one on one with OSF as basically dating. Is that right? I don't (obviously) though I think you need to be careful.


I understand that there is a different mind-set between dating and one on one with OSFs; I call it date-like. After giving it some thought, I guess i compare it more to the "first few dates" of a growing relationship where the two are getting to know each other enjoying other's company, and going to some activities together, which often leads to a deeper bond. 

Again, it's probably about individual culture and what's available in a town. If for example, my lady friend from work that I went to high school with asked me to hang out one evening. Lets say I went along. We'd probably go eat, talk, laugh, maybe see a movie, or go to a local event, which is basically the same thing I'd do on a first date. That's why it seems date-like to me. If a person's idea of a real date is to be a lot more intimate, then I understand the difference.

I guess it's like ranching and farming; some people would say they are totally different, and some would say they are very similar.


----------



## NextTimeAround

southbound said:


> I understand that there is a different mind-set between dating and one on one with OSFs; I call it* date-like.* A


I had to use that expression with my (future) husband. Any discussion I tried to have about his just friend ex got derailed with "she's just a friend." Fortunately, he was not a very neat person and he left receipts and credit card statements around. And yes, I decided to look at his e-mails and his FB account.

So I was able to go toe to toe with many things he did with and for her which sadly sometimes showed how he was shortchanging.

How can you say that you care more about someone when you don't even care whether they safely got on the bus (which you don't pay for) at the end of a date but will make damned sure that you get to a cash machine to pay for your friend's taxi fare when she arrives for one of your (date-like) outings.

No, I didn't make a lot of money at that time going from to contract. She told him, he told me, that she made GBP40,000 a year. (this is the UK) She also put him up to asking me how much I made I guess so that she find some spin on whatever that I made to make herself look more attractive. She had already compared herself favorably to me on that basis of age (21 years younger), state of health (well, at least it's not cancer).

I think because there has been a lot written on whether women who are "properly" dating a guy should go 50/50 on a date or at least help out more often than not, it makes men more keen to have that discussion with a woman they are dating.

But when it comes to the female friend, there must still be an element of wanting to impress the woman which sometimes comes out as "well, I had to do it, it would have been rude otherwise." "I suggested hanging out, not her......" ... and so on.......


----------



## EllisRedding

Yikes, with everyone stating their age I didn't realize this was a thread for a retirement home ...


:surprise:


----------



## southbound

NextTimeAround said:


> I had to use that expression with my (future) husband. Any discussion I tried to have about his just friend ex got derailed with "she's just a friend." Fortunately, he was not a very neat person and he left receipts and credit card statements around. And yes, I decided to look at his e-mails and his FB account.
> 
> So I was able to go toe to toe with many things he did with and for her which sadly sometimes showed how he was shortchanging.
> 
> How can you say that you care more about someone when you don't even care whether they safely got on the bus (which you don't pay for) at the end of a date but will make damned sure that you get to a cash machine to pay for your friend's taxi fare when she arrives for one of your (date-like) outings.
> 
> No, I didn't make a lot of money at that time going from to contract. She told him, he told me, that she made GBP40,000 a year. (this is the UK) She also put him up to asking me how much I made I guess so that she find some spin on whatever that I made to make herself look more attractive. She had already compared herself favorably to me on that basis of age (21 years younger), state of health (well, at least it's not cancer).


I can see where it would cause problems, and it's just difficult for me to believe that OSFs are healthy for a marriage. I can see where it could cause resentment at the very least.

Another reason I'm not for it is simple personality. Some people are thrill seekers and risk takers, but that's not my personality. I like to play it safe. I know that sounds as boring as watching paint dry, but everyone is different. Some will argue that the percent of OSFs that lead to cheating isn't very high. They may be right, but if it does happen, the cost is high.

If I invest $100 in something and it fails, that's not devastating to me, but the cost of a bungee jump gone wrong could be devastating. Some people will do that for the thrill, and I'm sure the percentage of people that get hurt compared to the number that do it is low. But if it goes wrong, the price is high, and to me, it wouldn't be worth the thrill of the jump. 

If i lived, I'd be lying in the hospital thinking, "Ok, I'm not lying here because I was fighting for my country or trying to rescue someone from a fire, I'm lying here because i tied a chord to my body and jumped off a bridge. How ridiculous! What was i thinking?"


----------



## southbound

EllisRedding said:


> Yikes, with everyone stating their age I didn't realize this was a thread for a retirement home ...
> 
> 
> :surprise:






I just celebrated my 110th birthday. :wink2:


----------



## Maricha75

EllisRedding said:


> Yikes, with everyone stating their age I didn't realize this was a thread for a retirement home ...
> 
> 
> :surprise:


Wait... didn't you say you were my dad's age? 😛

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## NextTimeAround

southbound said:


> Another reason I'm not for it is simple personality. Some people are thrill seekers and risk takers, but that's not my personality. I like to play it safe. I know that sounds as boring as watching paint dry, but everyone is different. Some will argue that the percent of OSFs that lead to *cheating* isn't very high. They may be right, but if it does happen, the cost is high.


Let's also remember that the problem with OSFs is not just cheating -- particularly when one uses the traditional meaning of cheating.

As others have mentioned, a lot of energy goes out of the marriage and into the relationship of an OSF. 

Men who feel the need to look like a provider at all times will think nothing of spending the household budget on "just a friend" and then will think nothing of saying "I don't even like her all that much..... now, will you forgive me for not being able to make the full mortgage payment this month........"


----------



## NextTimeAround

> If I invest $100 in something and it fails, that's not devastating to me, but the cost of a bungee jump gone wrong could be devastating. Some people will do that for the thrill, and I'm sure the percentage of people that get hurt compared to the number that do it is low. But if it goes wrong, the price is high, and to me, it wouldn't be worth the thrill of the jump.


yeah, you could try it on with one woman for example, only to be completely dissed out of that social circle. OTOH, there may be some women / couples who will give you a second chance.

This is why feel that when some people are aggressive with me -- or anyone else for that matter, it means they do't give a sh!t about a future relationship with that person.

my husband admitted to me that his just a friend ex stood him up for a concert they planned to go to. He bought the tickets on this occasion she agreed to pay for hers. didn't show up; didn't pay for the ticket. But 2 months later, they met up for another concert in which she had paid for both of tickets. He paid her for his even though she still hadn't paid him back for the one she stood him up on. 

Around this same time, while I was using his coffee grinder, it broke on me. A not so special appliance that he had had for 3 years already, did I break it or was it planned obsolescence? He was adamant that I replace it. To replace that coffee grinder was about the same price as a concert ticket. I was furious.


----------



## Wazza

Next, I totally agree that the things you are citing can be problems.

My "answer" is openness with my wife. Not keeping secrets. She has access to my phone, Facebook, emails, etc. I put "answer" in quotes because if I wanted to cheat, I could. So could she. But I think I would know, or at least know enough to be suspicious. 

Ummm...did you actually conclude that your husbands "friend" was more than a friend? I can't remember if you stated it, but faced with some of what you list, I would have wondered?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Wazza said:


> Next, I totally agree that the things you are citing can be problems.
> 
> My "answer" is openness with my wife. Not keeping secrets. She has access to my phone, Facebook, emails, etc. I put "answer" in quotes because if I wanted to cheat, I could. So could she. But I think I would know, or at least know enough to be suspicious.
> 
> Ummm...did you actually conclude that your husbands "friend" was more than a friend? I can't remember if you stated it, but faced with some of what you list, I would have wondered?



HE was trying to date / court her before he met me. With so much digital info, I can see that he and she became FB friends 4 months before he met me. He admitted that they had had sex a couple of times. but it wasn't great,he told me, of course.

But I did find a few message between them in which he was begging. The coup de grace came when she invited him -- the day of - to he b-day party and then told him to f^ck off when he arrived. I can see that discussion in their texting. 2 weeks later he was at a meetup activity where I was. He asked me out. He FB messaged her the night before our first date.

She told him at several points either "she was not looking for anything serious right now" OR that she was actively looking elsewhere. 

From my husband's point of view, it's possible that he was serious about her and used the friendship line to stay in touch with her. So I'm glad that before the end of our first year dating, I pointed out to him that if he needed her friendship, I would start dating other men again. 

I think from her point of view, she didn't like him enough to be serious about him. Because she was 29 at time, she felt, I think, that she still had a few more years before her bio clock dried up....... now that it's reported that women can have healthy babies even in their 40s.

Her attitude towards me went back and forth. One minute telling him that a relationship with me was good for him (possibly so that he would leave her alone for a change) to playing divide and conqure. ie, Having a table at paub for Superbowl, telling him that he's welcome to come but I'm not.

Yes, she did give him advice on our relationship. And my (future) husband shared some of that advice with me. I felt as felt as is our relationship was being moderated by a third party.


----------



## Personal

southbound said:


> I understand that there is a different mind-set between dating and one on one with OSFs; I call it date-like. After giving it some thought, I guess i compare it more to the "first few dates" of a growing relationship where the two are getting to know each other enjoying other's company, and going to some activities together, which often leads to a deeper bond.
> 
> Again, it's probably about individual culture and what's available in a town. If for example, my lady friend from work that I went to high school with asked me to hang out one evening. Lets say I went along. We'd probably go eat, talk, laugh, maybe see a movie, or go to a local event, which is basically the same thing I'd do on a first date. That's why it seems date-like to me. If a person's idea of a real date is to be a lot more intimate, then I understand the difference.
> 
> I guess it's like ranching and farming; some people would say they are totally different, and some would say they are very similar.


I've no doubt culture plays a role, yet I've experienced the same attitude as my own with different women of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. In my social circles, no one seems to care what others do within their own consenting adult relationships.

I'm (almost 45) a British Australian dual national (atheist), who was raised in Australia by a (North Western) English parent (non-religious, mostly Scottish background) and an Anglo-Australian parent (lazy Protestant, mostly Scottish and English background). Most relatives in now in Australia, most of the rest in England, Scotland and the United States.

My wife (almost 46) is an Australian woman (atheist) who was raised in Australia and Italy by Italian immigrants (entirely East Coast Sicilian, very Catholic with almost all relatives in Italy).

My before mentioned friend (51) is an English woman (atheist) raised in Southern England by non-religious Anglo-English parents. All relatives in England.

My ex-wife (43) is an English woman (badly practicing Catholic), raised in London by very Catholic Mauritian parents (black African and French background) most relatives in England and Mauritius. My ex-wife cheated on me with a man who wasn't an OSF, thus I immediately ended our marital relationship. She didn't happen to have OSF's, I did which was fine with her. Again despite the fact I had OSF's, I never cheated on her.

My other platonic OSF's and former sexual partners have mostly been (atheist) tertiary educated professionals. That are Australian, Russian, Polish, Cambodian, Spanish, French, Irish, Portuguese, Israeli, Japanese, Scottish, English and German women.

I can't recall any of them having any issues with having OSF's, being OSF's and catching up with OSF's alone or otherwise, to the point that it has never been talked about.

I also concur different experiences can lead to different things, I'm turning 45 soon and have been with the same woman for 20 years now. So my adult dating experience with others was a long time ago.

Yet through all of that dating (straining my memory here) I most often had sex on the first or second date, less frequently the third and once on the fourth. The only dating I have done that didn't lead to sex was on one occasion that went no further than the first date.

So for me catching up with other sex friends is not like dating, since there's no sexual tension, there's no having that feeling that sex is mutually wanted and can be easily had even if it will wait till the second date.

Even now when I frequently date my wife, we always flirt and still feel that sexual buzz. So for me catching up with my friends never feels like dating.

In all of my sexual relationships so far, I've never encountered the dramas that @NextTimeAround has mentioned.


----------



## southbound

Personal said:


> Yet through all of that dating (straining my memory here) I most often had sex on the first or second date, less frequently the third and once on the fourth. The only dating I have done that didn't lead to sex was on one occasion that went no further than the first date.
> 
> So for me catching up with other sex friends is not like dating, since there's no sexual tension, there's no having that feeling that sex is mutually wanted and can be easily had even if it will wait till the second date.


That explains a lot; our ideas of dating are different. It dawned on me in my last post that people's views of what constitutes a date probably varies widely.


----------



## WonkyNinja

NextTimeAround said:


> I had to use that expression with my (future) husband. Any discussion I tried to have about his just friend ex got derailed with "she's just a friend." Fortunately, he was not a very neat person and he left receipts and credit card statements around. And yes, I decided to look at his e-mails and his FB account.
> 
> So I was able to go toe to toe with many things he did with and for her which sadly sometimes showed how he was shortchanging.
> 
> How can you say that you care more about someone when you don't even care whether they safely got on the bus (which you don't pay for) at the end of a date but will make damned sure that you get to a cash machine to pay for your friend's taxi fare when she arrives for one of your (date-like) outings.
> 
> No, I didn't make a lot of money at that time going from to contract. She told him, he told me, that she made GBP40,000 a year. (this is the UK) She also put him up to asking me how much I made I guess so that she find some spin on whatever that I made to make herself look more attractive. She had already compared herself favorably to me on that basis of age (21 years younger), state of health (well, at least it's not cancer).
> 
> I think because there has been a lot written on whether women who are "properly" dating a guy should go 50/50 on a date or at least help out more often than not, it makes men more keen to have that discussion with a woman they are dating.
> 
> But when it comes to the female friend, there must still be an element of wanting to impress the woman which sometimes comes out as "well, I had to do it, it would have been rude otherwise." "I suggested hanging out, not her......" ... and so on.......





NextTimeAround said:


> my husband admitted to me that his just a friend ex stood him up for a concert they planned to go to. He bought the tickets on this occasion she agreed to pay for hers. didn't show up; didn't pay for the ticket. But 2 months later, they met up for another concert in which she had paid for both of tickets. He paid her for his even though she still hadn't paid him back for the one she stood him up on.
> 
> Around this same time, while I was using his coffee grinder, it broke on me. A not so special appliance that he had had for 3 years already, did I break it or was it planned obsolescence? He was adamant that I replace it. To replace that coffee grinder was about the same price as a concert ticket. I was furious.





NextTimeAround said:


> HE was trying to date / court her before he met me. With so much digital info, I can see that he and she became FB friends 4 months before he met me. He admitted that they had had sex a couple of times. but it wasn't great,he told me, of course.
> 
> But I did find a few message between them in which he was begging. The coup de grace came when she invited him -- the day of - to he b-day party and then told him to f^ck off when he arrived. I can see that discussion in their texting. 2 weeks later he was at a meetup activity where I was. He asked me out. He FB messaged her the night before our first date.
> 
> She told him at several points either "she was not looking for anything serious right now" OR that she was actively looking elsewhere.
> 
> From my husband's point of view, it's possible that he was serious about her and used the friendship line to stay in touch with her. So I'm glad that before the end of our first year dating, I pointed out to him that if he needed her friendship, I would start dating other men again.
> 
> I think from her point of view, she didn't like him enough to be serious about him. Because she was 29 at time, she felt, I think, that she still had a few more years before her bio clock dried up....... now that it's reported that women can have healthy babies even in their 40s.
> 
> Her attitude towards me went back and forth. One minute telling him that a relationship with me was good for him (possibly so that he would leave her alone for a change) to playing divide and conqure. ie, Having a table at paub for Superbowl, telling him that he's welcome to come but I'm not.
> 
> Yes, she did give him advice on our relationship. And my (future) husband shared some of that advice with me. I felt as felt as is our relationship was being moderated by a third party.


Since this is your (future) husband why are you still thinking of marrying him? What you've described here isn't an OSF it's a person that he seems hung up on and you are waiting around hoping he'll change.


----------



## WonkyNinja

southbound said:


> I have to take people's word for it, but it's difficult for me to understand finding a woman interesting enough that a guy wants to be with her, but there is zero sexual attraction, and I doubt that a lot of people's OSFs are ugly.


That is really quite sad.


----------



## NextTimeAround

WonkyNinja said:


> Since this is your (future) husband why are you still thinking of marrying him? What you've described here isn't an OSF it's a person that he seems hung up on and you are waiting around hoping he'll change.



We've been married for 2 years now. This problem occurred during the first year that we were dating.


----------



## WonkyNinja

NextTimeAround said:


> We've been married for 2 years now. This problem occurred during the first year that we were dating.


My apologies, I misunderstood the "(future)" part.


----------



## NextTimeAround

WonkyNinja said:


> My apologies, I misunderstood the "(future)" part.


Not to worry. I used the wowrd future there to mean that we weren't married at the time of the actions that I'm describing.


----------



## Miss Independent

.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Katiebird

I am a little late to this discussion but want to throw in a thought. Also - a disclaimer, I didn't read all 20+ pages of comments. 

To say that someone should NEVER call, text, have lunch or drinks with someone of the opposite sex is terribly limiting! I am involved in work and politics in which I am often the only female among a group of men. This often involves networking and discussions beyond a boardroom or workplace. Sometimes the discussion ends up being non-work related, but NEVER inappropriate. Sometimes about children, cooking, vacations, etc. Appropriate boundaries are ok, but we need to be realistic.


----------

