# A REAL example of what "alpha" really is...



## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

I was talking with my GF about the past, and was reminded about a situation several years ago when I was still with my XW. This was a couple of years pre-D-day.

My oldest son was maybe 16 at the time, and was constantly pushing the boundries (as teeanagers do, wanting independence). He's a great kid, but even so would occasionally lash out.

One day he lashed out at his mom about something while I was sitting beside her.

I stood up, walked over so I was looking him in the eye, and firmly said, "If you ever speak to _my woman_ like that again, I'll rock your world."

Needless to say, he didn't.

The side benefit was that she rocked my world that night - almost couldn't wait.



> Both of them were expecting me to say, "your mother," but when I said "my woman," I was treating him as another male invading my territory. That's extremely alpha behavior, without the "mean" aspect that so often is mistakenly associated with alpha. Just thought a specific example might be good to help understanding
> 
> Unfortunately for me, I displayed very few alpha traits back then.


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## UnwantedWife (Dec 5, 2011)

Your reaction is exactly what I would hope my husband would do in that situation. Stand up for me not just because he wanted to teach our son to respect me as a mother, but because he wants all people to respect me as HIS WOMAN. Its that sort of statement that makes a woman feel validated and protected by her spouse- why wouldn't she want to jump your bones after this?


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I have goosebumps.:smthumbup:


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My older daughter's father did that with our daughter a few months ago. We went out for her birthday lunch and she smarted off to me and he was up and in her face saying, "You DO NOT disrespect her like that. EVER!" She was shocked and apologized. *I* was speechless as he'd never done anything like that before.

There's hope for him yet :lol:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I don’t agree with that type of behaviour as far as a father is concerned. All you did was demonstrate you could be bigger and more aggressive than he was. He was bullying your wife, all you did was show you are a bigger bully. That’s not what being Alpha is about.

You’d have done far better going for a very long walk with your son. And letting him know the various stages a man goes through in their lives and what stage he’s at the moment and the best things he can do as he’s going through it. The result you really should have gone for was a very big apology from your son to his mother and his word as a Man that he would never repeat the same behaviour no matter what the circumstances.

All you did was meet aggression with aggression. That’s all you did and being the bigger of the two you “won”. If you are blessed and get a second opportunity do it very differently.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> I don’t agree with that type of behaviour as far as a father is concerned. All you did was demonstrate you could be bigger and more aggressive than he was. He was bullying your wife, all you did was show you are a bigger bully. That’s not what being Alpha is about.


:iagree:

In one.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I don’t agree with that type of behaviour as far as a father is concerned. All you did was demonstrate you could be bigger and more aggressive than he was. He was bullying your wife, all you did was show you are a bigger bully. That’s not what being Alpha is about.
> 
> You’d have done far better going for a very long walk with your son. And letting him know the various stages a man goes through in their lives and what stage he’s at the moment and the best things he can do as he’s going through it. The result you really should have gone for was a very big apology from your son to his mother and his word as a Man that he would never repeat the same behaviour no matter what the circumstances.
> 
> All you did was meet aggression with aggression. That’s all you did and being the bigger of the two you “won”. If you are blessed and get a second opportunity do it very differently.


You are SPOT on Bob. Alpha isn't about being the loudest mouth or the intimidator. It is about being the leader. A walk (as you suggested) would in my opinion have done far more to teach this boy about respect, not only for others but for himself.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I don’t agree with that type of behaviour as far as a father is concerned. All you did was demonstrate you could be bigger and more aggressive than he was. He was bullying your wife, all you did was show you are a bigger bully. That’s not what being Alpha is about.





> Alpha isn't about being the loudest mouth or the intimidator.


Alpha is as f--ked up as beta in my opinion. Both have good and bad traits to them, we shouldn't want to become one or the other, but to learn the good things of both, and get rid of the bad things.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It depends if the boy has been doing this and the dad stated already NOT to do it...and the boy continues.

There's a time and place for everything. Sometimes being the loudest is necessary. We don't know the backstory on their family life, so it's really hard to tell. At the time, he thought this was best, and it's a hell of a lot better than saying nothing, which leaves the boy to think it's ok.


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

I respect the intent.

As for the action, it depends on the severity of the sons behavior.

I also quibble that that is alpha but only if it indeed was over board

Glad you got a piece.

Id suggest you take that walk today and have that conversation with your son as suggested by others above.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

My son is now 21 and we have a great relationship.

I'm very soft-spoken. I didn't raise my voice nor get aggressive with him. I just let him know as a young man that he'd better understand that he was messing with "my woman."

When young men want to be treated as men, at some point they have to learn that part of being a man is respecting women. I reminded him that he wasn't simply disrespecting his mother (which he'd heard from both of us before), but that he was treating *my woman* in a way that I wouldn't tolerate.

Also, he didn't bully her. He verbally lashed out. I wouldn't let a strange man talk to my "woman" (GF/wife) that way. I was telling him that he'd crossed a line a _man_ shouldn't cross.

I stand by calling this alpha.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

At what point does the baton get passed between a father's (waning) physical advantage over his son and his superior experience and leadership?

I would think it would be well before sixteen, but maybe that's a generational thing.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Bob,

Ypur response smacks me of how we all want to pu$$y around the behavior of kids nowadays. Don't give them fails in school be ause it's bad for thier self esteem. Don't punish them because they get sad. Et al. 

The kid crossed a line. It's just good his dad wasn't the kid beating type. And just used his words. Because if he the kid did that in the "real" world, he'd get fired or the shat kicked out of him by....well..a stronger alpha protecting his woman.

Throughout the entire men's forum, we NEVER say....hey....take your wife out for a long walk and talk about how her EA/pa is disrespectful. This is so far from alpha I'd puke if I didn't actually do this weakling thing before I found myself.

So...I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I was sassing my mom once, when my drunken dad heard it and backhanded me across the face.
Reflexively, I punched him out, leaving him bloodied. I was 15. He stopped drinking after that, for good. 25 years of sobriety and becoming a decent guy all from my alpha smackdown.
It was pretty strange, finally , after years of abuse, pounding the guy.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Bob,
> 
> Ypur response smacks me of how we all want to pu$$y around the behavior of kids nowadays. Don't give them fails in school be ause it's bad for thier self esteem. Don't punish them because they get sad. Et al.
> 
> ...


If it were a sixteen year old on the street disrespecting say an old lady then sure step in and create a barrier between the two of them such that the disrespect stops immediately. I’ve done that a few times, kids speeding around car parks that sort of thing and I’ve put a stop to it.

But with a son it’s very different. With a son it’s time to be Mr Cool Dude and use the event as an opportunity to teach him some life lessons. In this case it would be about emotions, where they come from and how to control and manage them. About how anger in a man can rise within 0.1 of a second, why nature has made us men that way, how to recognise when our anger is rising and how to calm ourselves so we can really understand what’s happening inside and outside of us

All OP demonstrated was that his hurt and anger was greater than his sons. He won the day because he was the bigger of the two. For me there’s nothing at all Alpha about that.

As a sixteen year old it was big exam time for my eldest. It was late one night and all I said was don’t you think it’s good to go to bed because of your exams. I was standing by the door to the sitting room, he stood up and as he walked past he shouldered me. I counted to 10 and took another five minutes out and went upstairs and quietly knocked on his door. We had a sit on his bed and a very quite chat, no threats whatsoever. I just explained he is growing up and he will challenge his parents, it’s all part of it. But there’s no room in the home for physical or verbal abuse and I just asked him to keep it all under control. Two years later he was off to uni and in that time we never had another clash, it was the first and the last.

I think there’s enough bullying in the world without fathers bullying their sons. Rather if fathers taught their sons about their emotions and how to control and manage them for me the world would be a much better place to live in.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> Bob,
> 
> Ypur response smacks me of how we all want to pu$$y around the behavior of kids nowadays. Don't give them fails in school be ause it's bad for thier self esteem. Don't punish them because they get sad. Et al.
> 
> ...


It's a great example of "alpha" in the sense of showing dominance and chucking your weight around. It's a p*ss-poor demonstration of showing actual strength of character and being a "better man". And it's a f*cking godawful showing of what it means to be a father.

By this example, the topmost alpha behaviour would be to have waited until the son turned his back and then broken a chair over his head.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

AFEH said:


> All OP demonstrated was that his hurt and anger was greater than his sons. He won the day because he was the bigger of the two. For me there’s nothing at all Alpha about that.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I think there’s enough bullying in the world without fathers bullying their sons. Rather if fathers taught their sons about their emotions and how to control and manage them for me the world would be a much better place to live in.


+1. Anyone using violence, or the threat of violence, be it physical or psychological, as a parenting tool, has got serious problems of their own.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> +1. Anyone using violence, or the threat of violence, be it physical or psychological, as a parenting tool, has got serious problems of their own.


He wasn't parenting at the time. That's why he didn't say "your mother". He was parenting when he tried to teach the young man to respect women, elders, his mother, etc. Parenting time was over and it was time to let him know the consequences of his actions.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> +1. Anyone using violence, or the threat of violence, be it physical or psychological, as a parenting tool, has got serious problems of their own.


When my son loses his cool with my wife, I just very directly tell him that he can do better, because he is a man. I remind him that only boys and weak, ineffective men need to resort to lashing out, so its time for him to choose the path that he will stay on.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Kobo said:


> He wasn't parenting at the time. That's why he didn't say "your mother". He was parenting when he tried to teach the young man to respect women, elders, his mother, etc. Parenting time was over and it was time to let him know the consequences of his actions.


How on earth teaching a son aggression is good in that example is way beyond me. But not only that, additionally a fantastic opportunity to use a real life example to teach his son by way of example, by how we behave, about what being a Man is all about is totally lost when the father responds with anger and aggression. The guy missed a good opportunity to teach his son about his emotions, about how to be patient and tolerant, about empathy and compassion, understanding and forgiveness.

The OP hasn’t a clue what being Alpha is all about within the context it’s spoken of here plus he was bragging about how as a man he put down a sixteen year old who just happened to be his son and how it got him sex that night. That’s what he needs to look into and do something about.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Alphaomega, first off a sixteen year son is still a child whereas a wife is an adult. That obviously goes without saying but surely a man treats the two differently.

Your son is young as yet. As time goes by you will find yourselves in situations when you can be a real teacher to him. Getting angry with him will teach him nothing other than it’s ok to be angry. Not only that but it’s ok to be angry with your son. So it’s likely he too will be angry with his son and that is how behaviour is inherited down the generations.

Angry fathers beget angry sons, who become angry men, who become angry fathers, who beget angry sons. It is the way of the world.

Anger blocks out everything else, that’s what it does. And in that way anger is a temporary insanity. And all that’s remembered from the incident is anger and nothing is really learned.

What an opportunity the father had to teach his son so many things other than anger. Anger is easy. So easy in fact that anyone can do anger. It’s the other stuff, patience, tolerance, empathy, compassion, understanding etc. that is the hard stuff that as men we learn as we go along.

For example. I taught my sons about their mother’s menstrual cycle when they were about five and eight years old. My wife suffered quite a bit from it so I taught my sons to duck and not respond when she poked during those times. The effects were almost instant as they understood what was happening and why and didn’t do anything to aggravate the situation. Eventually my wife saw what was happening and she really reigned herself in so the poking actually stopped. You miss all that stuff and opportunities to teach and mentor your sons when you get angry.


But hey sure. Our schools seem to be a nightmare for teachers and students because they can no longer discipline their pupils.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

AFEH said:


> ...plus he was bragging about how as a man he put down a sixteen year old who just happened to be his son and how it got him sex that night. That’s what he needs to look into and do something about.


You don't know me at all Bob. I'm sorry that's all you got from my OP.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OOE said:


> You don't know me at all Bob. I'm sorry that's all you got from my OP.


Then I don't get why you posted what you posted. What was your motivation? Father’s have a lot to teach their sons. You lose a lot when you get angry with them and what do they learn other than anger?

Don't get me wrong there's no way I did everything right, mostly I have the benefit of hindsight. I think a home should be an anger free zone, even to the point of putting a sign on the door. I think you’ll find that Alpha male never does anger, he finds other ways of achieving the results he wants. Most especially with his family.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

AFEH said:


> How on earth teaching a son aggression is good in that example is way beyond me. But not only that, additionally a fantastic opportunity to use a real life example to teach his son by way of example, by how we behave, about what being a Man is all about is totally lost when the father responds with anger and aggression. The guy missed a good opportunity to teach his son about his emotions, about how to be patient and tolerant, about empathy and compassion, understanding and forgiveness.
> 
> The OP hasn’t a clue what being Alpha is all about within the context it’s spoken of here plus he was bragging about how as a man he put down a sixteen year old who just happened to be his son and how it got him sex that night. That’s what he needs to look into and do something about.


He wasn't trying to set an example. This wasn't parenting. He responded to someone disrespecting his wife. The only issue people have is that he did this to his son. In this instance the son was not acting like a son and got treated as such. I don't see him as the bad person you and others are trying to make him out to be because of one situation that we have limited back story on.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Kobo said:


> He wasn't trying to set an example. This wasn't parenting. He responded to someone disrespecting his wife. The only issue people have is that he did this to his son. In this instance the son was not acting like a son and got treated as such. I don't see him as the bad person you and others are trying to make him out to be because of one situation that we have limited back story on.


Our children learn by mimicking our behaviour. That’s how they learn. They don’t learn from what we preach to them, they learn from what we do with them and to them!

And in this case that type of learning goes exceptionally deep because of it’s emotional content and connection. Because of it’s emotional content it goes deep enough to become subconscious behaviour in the future! Another angry man is born. Or was he nurtured. Of course it was parenting and of course he was setting an example to his son.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

OOE said:


> I wouldn't let a strange man talk to my "woman" (GF/wife) that way.


What does that mean in practical terms? 

Here were I live, you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Every single adult you see on the street could potentially be armed and there's no way for you to know. (I realize this will shock people in the UK)

What this means is you never, ever respond to an insult even if it is directed at 'your woman.' And you sure as hell don't respond with anything that could possibly be construed as a reference to physical violence. 

(If I've misunderstood what "Rocking your world" means, I apologize)

In three of the four possible scenarios (You're armed, He's armed, You're both armed) it could end very badly for you if that line gets crossed.

I realize this was your son; that you love him and he loves you and you would never have really hurt each other. I also realize how irritating a mouthy sixteen year old can be.

But understanding that physical violence is only for the gravest extreme is an important lesson every young man should learn.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

A situation in which a sixteen year old kid has flown off the handle or has lost it, does not lend itself to a teaching moment.

The teaching moment comes after de-escalating the situation. And if THAT requires putting 'the fear' on him, then so be it.

If the kid thinks twice before losing his sh!t on his mother again regardless of whether it is fear of his fathers reaction, or thinking better of it as a result of a discussion about respect and personal conduct, then the lesson has value.

I didn't do chores as a kid because I thought it built character, I did them because I wanted to avoid the consequences of not doing them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Deejo said:


> A situation in which a sixteen year old kid has flown off the handle or has lost it, does not lend itself to a teaching moment.
> 
> The teaching moment comes after de-escalating the situation. And if THAT requires putting 'the fear' on him, then so be it.
> 
> ...


Thank you. 

Now would be a good time to have a talk with his son...to explain what happens. Or not. IT'S HIS KID.

People are just getting too personal here. *He didn't really ask for your opinion about what you all thought. *


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

AFEH said:


> You lose a lot when you get angry with them and what do they learn other than anger?


I never said I got angry with him. 

My motivation was trying to explain (by way of recollecting something that happened a LONG time ago) that alpha doesn't equal mean. Again, I think you read something into the interaction that wasn't there.

I was protective of my wife. I wasn't mean to my son. I didn't yell, bow up, push him, or anything like that. I simply told him he was crossing into my territory.

Unfortunately, a 3-4 paragraph post on a forum doesn't begin to explain the complexities of the relationship I have with my boys, nor even the depth of my personality. 

I was really trying to explain how the "protection" act was alpha. I think she even said something like "where'd _that_ come from?" afterwards - with a bit of awe. In 23 years with her, she very seldom demonstrated any respect towards me, so yeah, that interaction kind of stood out.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

my gawd, there are people on this very board complaining about men being beta, then complaining about a man being alpha

i am so confused!!!!

personally, i would have handled it the same way. the kid needed to be put in his place. i had my butt scared by an adult a few times when i deserved it, it modeled some of my later behaviors, like to respect others. i definately agree that after the incident some calm discussion should take place explaining things


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Lol. I had a chair smack before. The chair won. So did the beer bottle in the follow up smack.

I called some football players girlfriend a scuzzy Biotch in a bar once. It got alpha. I learned not to call any woman a beotch. Particularily Whn three hundred pound guys are standing next to them.

Bob, you have good follow up points for consideration.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

AFEH said:


> For example. I taught my sons about their mother’s menstrual cycle when they were about five and eight years old. My wife suffered quite a bit from it so I taught my sons to duck and not respond when she poked during those times. The effects were almost instant as they understood what was happening and why and didn’t do anything to aggravate the situation.


Ah, you taught your sons to be sensitive, kind, and respectful of their mother, with the presumed intention that they be sensitive, kind, and respectful of women in their lives in the future. Deferential and eager to please.

Thank you. You have demonstrated that you have no idea whatsoever what alpha behavior is about.

OP- my hat is off to you. Despite what the beta-boy chorus thinks, you handled it perfectly, and I think your son will remember how you handled the situation and use it himself sometime down the road.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

NotLikeYou said:


> *Ah, you taught your sons to be sensitive, kind, and respectful of their mother, with the presumed intention that they be sensitive, kind, and respectful of women in their lives in the future. *Deferential and eager to please.
> 
> Thank you. You have demonstrated that you have no idea whatsoever what alpha behavior is about.
> 
> OP- my hat is off to you. Despite what the beta-boy chorus thinks, you handled it perfectly, and I think your son will remember how you handled the situation and use it himself sometime down the road.


Of course. Anything else is just being a jerk. Much like OP's son was being.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Our children learn by mimicking our behaviour. That’s how they learn. They don’t learn from what we preach to them, they learn from what we do with them and to them!
> 
> And in this case that type of learning goes exceptionally deep because of it’s emotional content and connection. Because of it’s emotional content it goes deep enough to become subconscious behaviour in the future! Another angry man is born. Or was he nurtured. Of course it was parenting and of course he was setting an example to his son.


And there may come a time in this kids life that warrants that very reaction. Again, this is not something done daily and I'm guessing is not the only way the OP handles conflict.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> A situation in which a sixteen year old kid has flown off the handle or has lost it, does not lend itself to a teaching moment.
> 
> The teaching moment comes after de-escalating the situation. And if THAT requires putting 'the fear' on him, then so be it.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This works OK up to the point where the other person who you've put "the fear" on decides the only way to respond is to get their retalitation in first and when you turn your back they punch you in the base of the skull. I've seen / done the putting the fear bit on people - it doesn't always work the way you plan it



ocotillo said:


> What does that mean in practical terms?
> 
> Here were I live, you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Every single adult you see on the street could potentially be armed and there's no way for you to know. (I realize this will shock people in the UK)
> 
> ...


+1, especially in emotionally charged situations.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

NotLikeYou said:


> Ah, you taught your sons to be sensitive, kind, and respectful of their mother, with the presumed intention that they be sensitive, kind, and respectful of women in their lives in the future. Deferential and eager to please.
> 
> Thank you. You have demonstrated that you have no idea whatsoever what alpha behavior is about.
> 
> OP- my hat is off to you. Despite what the beta-boy chorus thinks, you handled it perfectly, and I think your son will remember how you handled the situation and use it himself sometime down the road.


"
Presumably being kind and respectful has no place if you're a "real man"? Bloody hell. All those years as a rifleman and a martial artist, I never got that at all...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

lol People are blowing this way out of proportion. Geeez.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Our children learn by mimicking our behaviour. That’s how they learn. They don’t learn from what we preach to them, they learn from what we do with them and to them!


And this is what the OP was doing. He was modelling real life reactions - in the relatively safe confines of the home with his son. OOE used his 'big boy' words to very clearly define a crossed line. 

Taken to the extreme, the son should not be given the message that if another man disrespects your woman (or any woman) you invite the guy for a long walk. Regardless of how much sharing may happen.

That said, perhaps the Father/Son long walk would have been a good follow up.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

OOE said:


> Unfortunately, a 3-4 paragraph post on a forum doesn't begin to explain the complexities of the relationship I have with my boys, nor even the depth of my personality.
> 
> I was really trying to explain how the "protection" act was alpha. I think she even said something like "where'd _that_ come from?" afterwards - with a bit of awe. In 23 years with her, she very seldom demonstrated any respect towards me, so yeah, that interaction kind of stood out.


I do think you showed her a side of yourself that will dramatically change the way she relates to you for a long time. That protective spirit, however, is commonly misunderstood in forums like this, but its awesome to see how she responded to this. 

My wife and I were talking about the subject recently. A coworker of hers went through conflict with her neighbor, and her husband treated her like the subject was a bother to him. My wife said that she likes knowing that when it really comes down to it, I'll be there to stand up for her. She admitted that it must be a challenge for guys in this day and age to walk a fine line of protecting versus being just viewed as a bully. I think that others might miss the context of how this wasn't previously something that would be a part of how you related, so the issue was that you were solidly establishing a boundary, for her protection. Hopefully, you'll continue to share new situations that arise.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Halien said:


> I do think you showed her a side of yourself that will dramatically change the way she relates to you for a long time. That protective spirit, however, is commonly misunderstood in forums like this, but its awesome to see how she responded to this.
> 
> My wife and I were talking about the subject recently. A coworker of hers went through conflict with her neighbor, and her husband treated her like the subject was a bother to him. My wife said that she likes knowing that when it really comes down to it, I'll be there to stand up for her. She admitted that it must be a challenge for guys in this day and age to walk a fine line of protecting versus being just viewed as a bully. I think that others might miss the context of how this wasn't previously something that would be a part of how you related, so the issue was that you were solidly establishing a boundary, for her protection. Hopefully, you'll continue to share new situations that arise.


I think you're absolutely right EXCEPT for one huge thing.

The guy he stood up to and threatened to beat the snot out of wasn't just a.n.other f*ckwit from along the street / in a bar.

_He was their son_. Aside from being a p*ss-poor example of parenting AND leadership, the signal that a man is prepared to beat f*ck out of his wife's children may not necessarily send a signal she finds "hot".

Frankly I find the idea of a woman who is turned on by the idea of someone offering violence to her own child more than slightly disturbing.


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## OOE (Mar 17, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think you're absolutely right EXCEPT for one huge thing.
> 
> The guy he stood up to and threatened to beat the snot out of wasn't just a.n.other f*ckwit from along the street / in a bar.
> 
> _He was their son_. Aside from being a p*ss-poor example of parenting AND leadership, the signal that a man is prepared to beat f*ck out of his wife's children may not necessarily send a signal she finds "hot".


I'm sorry your father beat you, SB.

I have never laid a hand on either of my boys. They are very bright, and I've always found other well-thought-out punishments to be much more effective with them than spankings. 

I'm very slow to anger. When I have raised my voice towards my children it has been deliberate, not a reaction. I have gotten angry with my oldest son a couple of times in his life, but have never interacted with him from that frame.

This exchange was planned. I had heard/seen his inappropriate exchanges with his mother increase in frequency. We had both spoken with him about it. I considered the situation and knew exactly what I was going to say the next time it happened.

I meant it as a way to shock a change into a slightly rebellious teen, and it worked. He never again raised his voice like that to his mother. I'm sure he's been very conscious of the way he treats other men's women as well.

Since this tiny slice of our father-son relationship occured, my son became an Eagle Scout, has gone on to college, and overall is a well-adjusted young man. I don't think this interaction has caused him any scarring.

I wasn't trying to use this exchange as an example of how to raise a son. It certainly doesn't reflect my relationship with mine.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

OOE said:


> I'm sorry your father beat you, SB.


Purely out of curiousity, where did you get that idea?


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think you're absolutely right EXCEPT for one huge thing.
> 
> The guy he stood up to and threatened to beat the snot out of wasn't just a.n.other f*ckwit from along the street / in a bar.
> 
> ...


Sawney, I think it is possible to let a son know that he is progressing into dangerous territory without it being broadcast as a threat that it would automatically become physical violence. Regardless, his point was that he was protecting the wife from danger. Strongly implied that the wife felt threatened, then the threat was removed. Maybe the terminology used is interpreted differently in other places? Among the friends of mine, 'rock your world' in this context does not automatically mean violence - it just means that he's never dealth with that side of the OP before.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

that_girl said:


> lol People are blowing this way out of proportion. Geeez.


Ya think?


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

OOE said:


> I'm sorry your father beat you, SB.
> 
> I have never laid a hand on either of my boys. They are very bright, and I've always found other well-thought-out punishments to be much more effective with them than spankings.
> 
> ...



Most understand this was not a default reaction but one that the boy needed at the time.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I've been thinking about this thread. It's taken me awhile, but I do think I understand the OP's point of view in a way.

My objections were probably generational (A lot of my generation got a free basic education in how to kill starting at 18.) and regional (I live in an open carry/concealed carry state)

When you study martial arts or tactical pistol shooting or any other discipline where the objective is to kill or incapacitate, the one lesson that's continually drummed into your head is you never, ever respond to verbal abuse. 

But the flip side of that coin is you never, ever verbally abuse anyone else either and this is where I think the OP may have been coming from (?)

Most men do instinctively know that there's an invisible line beyond which another man is liable to explode. (This isn't to imply that this isn't true of women too, but I can't remember my daughters defining this line with their fists like my brothers and cousins regularly did when we were kids.)

I wouldn't have handled the situation like the OP, but then this wasn't my son, so it doesn't really matter what I think. If the lesson was learned and nobody was hurt, then it's all good.

Where I still disagree is the implication that this is a life lesson in how a man is justified in acting.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Nearly ALL of my male friends came head to head with their dad around the age of 17.

I don't see the big deal.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Nearly ALL of my male friends came head to head with their dad around the age of 17.
> I don't see the big deal.


--Depends on what you mean by 'Head to head' The first time I beat my father arm wrestling was between seventeen and eighteen and my father was not a small man. 

That's well past the point where we could have seriously injured each other.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Nearly ALL of my male friends came head to head with their dad around the age of 17.
> 
> I don't see the big deal.


That's more likely because you are not a man.

You really can’t see the big deal?

The big deal is in the way these things are handled. Everything a father does is a lesson for his son as to whether it’s meant to be a lesson or not. So if down the line OP’s son finds himself in the same situation with his son he is likely to handle the situation in the same way his father did. That’s how our sons learn, they learn from what we do. It’s “imprinting” and it’s how our mind gets its values, beliefs and rules that dictate our behaviour. It’s called behavioural inheritance. 

If however OP’s son thinks his father handled the situation badly, then he will handle his own similar situation differently. And the more emotion the son feels wrt his father’s “lesson” the deeper and longer lasting it will be. And so it goes on. As men some of the things we do we do because our father did them or we do the opposite of what our father did.

My elder son is 39 this week. He not only looks like me but he has the same mannerisms and some of the exact same behaviour as I do. He spent a weekend with old friends of mine that haven’t seen him in over 30 years. They were totally struck at just how similar we are and said it was like being with me. As an aside he’s coming out to spend time with me over Christmas. I’m looking forward to him walking into the shops and cafes here ahead of me and then seeing the reactions of my friends there when I follow along behind.


Some of the men here say OP wasn’t giving his son a lesson. Well from my perspective and experience they are wrong and I think it will be helpful for them to at least consider that every single thing they do is a lesson to their sons. It may help to think of them in some ways as a parrot, not in derogatory terms but our sons can and do imitate at least some of our behaviour and that imitation can be instinctual and not thought through at all.

It’s to do with those games Deejo talks about. As sons we quite simply adopt and use the games of life our father played. Very often this is all done very unconsciously. Some of those games are good and some bad. At other times we swear to ourselves even as children that we will never play the same particular game our father played. As men some of us spend a lot of time and effort “unlearning” the bad games our father taught us.

So our sons will pick up and run with both our good traits and our bad traits. Earlier this year as a father I sat with my son and his partner and watched him behave in exactly the same way in the same circumstance I used to with my wife. I knew where he’d got that behaviour from, it was not a pretty sight at all. I am very proud of my son in many ways but if I accept he’s a very good man in part because of the way I raised him, then I must also accept the not so good parts of him are down to me as well.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I think AFEH watches too many Lifetime movies.

If any of my kids were to disrespect their mother in such a way I`d give the same exact "lesson" the OP did.

Taking a teen for a walk and talking to them is about as useful as taking your dog out to discuss his toilet habits.

Trust me, the kid in the OP learned a lesson and a more ingrained lesson than any "talk" would have taught him.

You need to train your kids for the real world not the make believe one the self-help industry has created.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

tacoma said:


> You need to train your kids for the real world....


Do you think this is appropriate conduct in the "Real world?" 

You do realize that when the person in question is not your minor child, a stated intent of physical violence can justify drawing a weapon?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Do you think this is appropriate conduct in the "Real world?"


Most definately.
Nobody disrespects my wife, that includes her children.
However in the real world it would have resulted in immediate violence from me instead of a warning.

Which is exactly why the OP taught his son correctly.
If he pulled that with somebodies woman in the real world what do you think the chances are the man in question would have a "talk" with him compared to the chances he`d just kick his ass?

One day his son could have mouthed off to the woman of a man like me and found himself hospitalized.



> You do realize that when the person in question is not your minor child, a stated intent of physical violence can justify drawing a weapon?


I don`t make "statements of intent" of physical violence "in the real world".
It`s idiotic to give your opponent warning.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Nobody disrespects my wife, that includes her children.
> However in the real world it would have resulted in immediate violence from me instead of a warning.


Fair enough. 

Penalties for assault vary from state to state. Here's how it works where I live: 

Assuming you're unarmed and don't hurt the person beyond simple "playground" injuries, what you just described is a Class 1 misdemeanor punishable by six months in prison and a pretty stiff fine

For most misdemeanor offenses, prison here is a wonderful place called "Tent City" which is a bunch of military surplus tents set up in full sun with no relief from the heat ever. 

If you actually injure the person or are armed, it's a Class 3 felony punishable by 5 - 15 years in prison. A felony sentence of this length would be served in an actual penitentiary

On the flip side of the coin, pretty much anything the person manages to do to you, up to and including killing you is likely to be viewed as self defense. 

It sounds like a lose/lose proposition to me, but I guess everybody has to make up their own mind what a point of honor is worth.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

As far as I’m concerned the only thing OP taught his son is how to settle something if you are a bigger person. With all the men with the macho talk here none would behave the same if the offending guy were the equivalent of a Mike Tyson.


To my mind he’d been much better off teaching his son empathy, compassion, respect, patience, understanding etc. for his mother because those sort of lessons last a life time.

And men do need to learn when their anger is rising, how to assess the cause and what it means. How to calm themselves before taking any action at all, most of all hitting out at their mother let alone anyone else.

And again OP would, in my mind, have served his son (and his wife) better by demonstrating how a man calms his anger, gets to the root of a problem by considering all participants points of view and works to resolve it calmly.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Let's discuss reality for a change.

Here's a scenerio

A young man walks up to an woman accompanied by a man at a party, bar, function.
He publicly insults her, *****, ****, *****...whatever.

Just take an educated guess at what the reaction of her escort is most likely to be.

A: Her escort will calmly attempt to diffuse the situation by having a rational discussion with the angry offensive young man.
B: Her escort will kick the **** out of the angry offensive young man.

Once you've truthfully answered this question doesn't teaching option A to the young man actually misinform him and indeed put him in danger?

You can teach your children Lifetime movies morality all you like but what you're doing is teaching falsehoods to your children and in fact keeping them from understanding the actual world they find themselves in.
I'll continue to teach my children reality no matter how unsavory it is and in fact I'll teach it BECAUSE of how unsavory it is.

The OP's son undoubtedly knows now that you simply don't **** with another mans woman AND he didn't have to be hospitalized to learn it.

I'd say that was well done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Nearly ALL of my male friends came head to head with their dad around the age of 17.
> 
> I don't see the big deal.


A lot of fathers would have handled it very poorly. 

If the OP got angry, started throwing stuff, threatened physical violence, the kid would get scared and and turn to fight or flight, and possibly learn that intimidating others works.

It sounds to me like the OP maintained a calm demeanor and informed the son of a rock solid boundary he'd be foolish to cross. Body language and tone have a role to play in how the message is recieved, regardless of the specific words used to convey the message. I agree with the OP, especially because I could see my own father reacting by having a "**** fit" and becoming incredibly agressive, not keeping his cool like OP.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Massad Ayoob devoted about eight pages to this topic (i.e. How a man should respond to an insult) in the book, _In The Gravest Extreme. _

Ayoob has spent almost his entire life teaching law enforcement agencies the finer points of pistol shooting, so his perspective is naturally that of an expert in the use of deadly force. His position is that the willingness to endure an insult is the price that anyone with formal training in how to kill people must pay. 

It's an interesting read and even if one doesn't really agree with it, I wouldn't call it unrealistic. Ayoob has been assaulted a couple times in his life and it didn't go very well for the attackers at all.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Let's discuss reality for a change.
> 
> 
> A: Her escort will calmly attempt to diffuse the situation by having a rational discussion with the angry offensive young man.
> ...


The reality is that if you decide that option B is your preferred option, and that you throw a punch, the other guy could very well respond with a broken bottle, knife or even a gun. Or if you have seriosly misread the situation and your first punch doesn't settle it, and he decides to throw you on the ground and jump up and down on your ribcage. Or six of his friends work you over outside when you leave.

If you want to go that way, that's fine - but be very clear that there CAN be consequences. Some of which you can't learn anything from.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Massad Ayoob devoted about eight pages to this topic (i.e. How a man should respond to an insult) in the book, _In The Gravest Extreme. _
> 
> Ayoob has spent almost his entire life teaching law enforcement agencies the finer points of pistol shooting, so his perspective is naturally that of an expert in the use of deadly force. His position is that the willingness to endure an insult is the price that anyone with formal training in how to kill people must pay.
> 
> It's an interesting read and even if one doesn't really agree with it, I wouldn't call it unrealistic. Ayoob has been assaulted a couple times in his life and it didn't go very well for the attackers at all.


I've not read Massad Ayoob, but he comes highly recommended. I'd point out that large part of riot control training in the Army involved learning about NOT simply shooting some f*cker no matter how richly you felt their insulting words and behaviour merited it.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

tacoma said:


> The OP's son undoubtedly knows now that you simply don't **** with another mans woman AND he didn't have to be hospitalized to learn it.
> 
> I'd say that was well done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Completely agree w/ tacoma and OP. I give my sons rational, quiet father/son lessons when they curse excessively, break the law, get angry and put a hole in my wall, act like slobs, etc etc. These are teachable moments. I do not get angry. I tell them that I am disappointed and expect better from them. 

But my kids, teens now, know where my boundaries are. Insulting my wife, their mother is something that I will not tolerate and will be in their face over it. Each son learned this lesson 1 time and we have never had to repeat it. No violence was involved. But I said something quite like what OP said. It's what a man is supposed to do and be. 

The women on this board may act all appalled. But if their husband did the same thing they would get all jelly legged and have a new respect for the man. My wife was very happy that I did what I did.


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