# If you do this for me, we'll have sex later...



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Wife and I were talking about our upcoming plans for the weekend. We have a lot of things to work on over the weekend. Curiously, she said a phrase that I have never heard her state before in our marriage: "If you work hard on Saturday and complete all the things I want to get done, we can have sex tomorrow night". It made me chuckle because it's the first time she ever made a "quid pro quo" statement regarding sex. I'm not going to give it much thought and simply do what need to get done on Saturday. Honestly, if we don't knock it out on Saturday it will still need to be done on Sunday or the following week anyways.

I don't read anything into the statement and interpret her as saying "Let's work hard tomorrow so we can have some fun tomorrow night". I thought about this a little bit more and I'm curious about how everyone else would interpret a statement like this from their spouse. Would this be one of those sh!t tests that are talked about in NMMNG and MMSLP? I never read either book. 

Alternatively, if you are a spouse/SO that has used techniques like this in the past, were you dead serious about it or was it more in jest in good fun?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Ahhh...my STBW tried this in seriousness really early on in our relationship, and I let her know I don't pay to play.

She has playfully said the whole "I'll make it worth your while..." thing, and I'll respond with "I'd do it anyway." and she responds with "You'd get laid anyway." So it's all good


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

My husband frequently says "if you do this, this, and this I'll have sex with you later, maybe..."

Only later never comes.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

CW and Sam,
Sounds like both tried to use sex as bargaining chips. However, it seems sam's case may be more of a playful banter while CW's case is manipulation. It's funny (not laughing) how the same statement made in two different relationships can be so different in reality.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Sounds much better than my situation.

I am the one thinking that if I do this around the house and that around the house, that she will want to have sex. Most of the time I am disappointed. 

Would be nice to know beforehand that doing this and that would mean sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Well, early on in our relationship, it was actual bargaining on her part. That was how she was used to dealing with men in relationships. That's how she thought it worked.

The one incident that really set her straight and showed her I was serious that I did not play that game was when she had some friends over, and they were all talking, and now I can't remember exactly what she said, but it pissed me off, and I went into the bedroom. A few minutes later she came in there and tried to give me a blowjob. I told her no way. She was completely shocked.

To me, it was along the lines of how an abuser will bring flowers or jewelry to make it better...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds much better than my situation.
> 
> I am the one thinking that if I do this around the house and that around the house, that she will want to have sex. Most of the time I am disappointed.
> 
> Would be nice to know beforehand that doing this and that would mean sex.


I think that's referred to as a "covert contract". You make a secret agreement that only you are aware of, and if she doesn't "give up the goods", then you are sorely disappointed and think that she reneged on the deal.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Well, early on in our relationship, it was actual bargaining on her part. That was how she was used to dealing with men in relationships. That's how she thought it worked.
> 
> The one incident that really set her straight and showed her I was serious that I did not play that game was when she had some friends over, and they were all talking, and now I can't remember exactly what she said, but it pissed me off, and I went into the bedroom. A few minutes later she came in there and tried to give me a blowjob. I told her no way. She was completely shocked.
> 
> To me, it was along the lines of how an abuser will bring flowers or jewelry to make it better...


Man, I'm sorry if I started any triggers for you. It sounds like she was used a lot in prior relationship(s). I know she had some colorful issues in her past based on some things you wrote, but never read thru all your threads to discern what they were.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

If it's never happened before, maybe she - meant let's try and get this done so that we can have time to have fun?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Plan,
Hard to say. 

My gut reaction to that sort of thing is negative. As a 'one off' I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. But if it happened a second time - I would put her on the spot with a question: 
Do you think you need to bribe me with sex, to get a good faith effort from me? 

That said, if you are getting 'bossy wife' on Saturday - you need to shut that down. 

I do one of these things in that regard, using an even tone of voice:
- If I need your help, I'll ask for it 
- That's how you talk to a subordinate, not a life partner 
- Is this some incomprehensible version of - thanks for being so helpful today




Plan 9 from OS said:


> Wife and I were talking about our upcoming plans for the weekend. We have a lot of things to work on over the weekend. Curiously, she said a phrase that I have never heard her state before in our marriage: "If you work hard on Saturday and complete all the things I want to get done, we can have sex tomorrow night". It made me chuckle because it's the first time she ever made a "quid pro quo" statement regarding sex. I'm not going to give it much thought and simply do what need to get done on Saturday. Honestly, if we don't knock it out on Saturday it will still need to be done on Sunday or the following week anyways.
> 
> I don't read anything into the statement and interpret her as saying "Let's work hard tomorrow so we can have some fun tomorrow night". I thought about this a little bit more and I'm curious about how everyone else would interpret a statement like this from their spouse. Would this be one of those sh!t tests that are talked about in NMMNG and MMSLP? I never read either book.
> 
> Alternatively, if you are a spouse/SO that has used techniques like this in the past, were you dead serious about it or was it more in jest in good fun?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Man, I'm sorry if I started any triggers for you. It sounds like she was used a lot in prior relationship(s). I know she had some colorful issues in her past based on some things you wrote, but never read thru all your threads to discern what they were.


Nah. It's all good. Yeah, she had some very messed up relationships and situations, but through it all, she never lost sight of what she really wanted. What she always ran into was trying to fit the square peg into the round hole if you will.

What I said above in that situation, how it helped us grow as a couple is actually something I am pretty proud of, on both of our parts.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I think k it depends on the situation.. If she was doing the work along side of you and working together, that would be fine... Work hard, play hard.

Don't think was a $hit test....maybe just to reward the both of you...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Plan,
> Hard to say.
> 
> My gut reaction to that sort of thing is negative. As a 'one off' I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. But if it happened a second time - I would put her on the spot with a question:
> ...


Thanks for the input MEM. I'm 99% sure it was a one off. One thing my wife and I do is communicate. Whenever she does get b!tchy, I will respond in kind. It will be something I'll address if she says something like that again.

When she did say that to me today, I did respond to it right away. I completely forgot what I said o), but it was something along the lines of asking if she was trying to buy me off or something of that sort. I did it with a feigned shock and outrage ))


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Trickster said:


> I think k it depends on the situation.. If she was doing the work along side of you and working together, that would be fine... Work hard, play hard.
> 
> Don't think was a $hit test....maybe just to reward the both of you...


We work side by side when it comes to the weekend chores. Either we're doing the same task together or we divide and conquer. I'd never call my wife lazy.


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## StayInIt (Jul 27, 2012)

I have traded sex for chores before and honestly I don't think it was inappropriate. I needed help with outside chores I am not physically capable of doing and having sex was the way to get help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> If it's never happened before, *maybe she - meant let's try and get this done so that we can have time to have fun?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's how I interpreted it TBH. 

One of the things I'm curious about when it pertains to other relationships is whether something like this is defined as a sh!t test or is it a way for a spouse to try to "train" their SO.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> We work side by side when it comes to the weekend chores. Either we're doing the same task together or we divide and conquer. I'd never call my wife lazy.


Wasn't a $hit test...I think it was just a way to motivate the 2 of you... Like going out to get ice cream with my daughter if we clean her room... I like ice creme just as much ad she does...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

StayInIt said:


> I have traded sex for chores before and honestly I don't think it was inappropriate. I needed help with outside chores I am not physically capable of doing and having sex was the way to get help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How did you get stuck with the outside chores if you aren't physically capable? Also, if it's both yours and your SO's place where you live together, wouldn't he/she be affected by it too?

Sucks that you would have had to resort to using sex for favors - for the both of you IMHO.


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## StayInIt (Jul 27, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> How did you get stuck with the outside chores if you aren't physically capable? Also, if it's both yours and your SO's place where you live together, wouldn't he/she be affected by it too?
> 
> Sucks that you would have had to resort to using sex for favors - for the both of you IMHO.


Oh, because while I can do gardening and so forth, I wasn't able to move some big rocks and stumps on my own. Since we rent, my husband doesn't particularly care how the outside looks. He works 14 hour days and the last thing he wants to do is stuff around the house. I stay at home, so the house is my responsibility. Frankly I think its a fair trade. I bet he would prefer not to work so much but he does for us. I don't mind putting out if it means I don't have to hire out help. Dude, life sucks sometimes. Better to just get one with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I thought about this a little bit more and I'm curious about how everyone else would interpret a statement like this from their spouse.


My response would be "A blow job now will be a sufficient retainer for my services!"


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm not of the bargaining mind set at all. I suspect your wife is not either because she never was before. If she is not a manipulative person, she is unlikely to become one suddenly. 

If you are concerned, wait and see if there is a reoccurrence. I don't think saying anything about it now would be good. It might make her feel that you don't trust or really know her after all the years you have been together. Assume the best for now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

SAD...but hey at least she is bargaining for the possibility of sex after work is done.... she must really like it deep down with you OP to negotiate your labor.

The difference is I will work hard tomorrow on the yard (my wife asked me to do a several things) and likely not get sex. Nothing new. Not sure how I would take my wife bargaining apart from you have to be kidding and filing for divorce the next day


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I suppose I have a double standard here. If DH said that to me I would feel belittled.

However I just said this to him today! I live in a old house with a creepy basement and told him I'd give him a blowjob if he went down there for more laundry detergent and paper towels.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> I suppose I have a double standard here. If DH said that to me I would feel belittled.
> 
> However I just said this to him today! I live in a old house with a creepy basement and told him I'd give him a blowjob if he went down there for more laundry detergent and paper towels.


Some women do have a double standard about sex as you illustrated. For me to flip that around that would be the equivalent to me saying if you cook me dinner I will give you a big hug and listen to your day. Now in some cases, such as the one you gave, it's in fun and flirty. If my Gf said that to me I would laugh and go get the stuff and get my BJ. However if she never gave them and this was a constant "reward" for being a good little boyfriend than I would not be ok with it. I think a lot depends on the context in my view. I'm ok with the flirty have fun type of statement. Not in the real work application of using sex as a reward or bargaining chip.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Playing around, I wouldn't mind.

If my wife said that seriously though, then I'd make sure what she wanted done Saturday wouldn't get done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

My wife promised me we would never do this before we got married. A month after we were married, guess what?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Interlocutor said:


> Playing around, I wouldn't mind.
> 
> If my wife said that seriously though, then I'd make sure what she wanted done Saturday wouldn't get done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I tend to agree. Although for a first offense, I would do what needed to be done and then turn down the sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Likw myself, I think Plan 9 is in a different situation from many other people here in that we both have decent sex lives to begin with. My STBW and I have sex 10-15 times a week, so daily plus, with blow jobs and other thing thrown in there too, so sex is obviously not a bargaining chip.

As I said, my STBW has obviously and playfully said similar on the rare occasion, and thinking back on it, I have as well. As I also said, she DID try it in seriousness very early on, and I DID shut it down immediately.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Amplexor said:


> My response would be "A blow job now will be a sufficient retainer for my services!"


Amp, you're awesome.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

Wife: "If you do (random chore) we'll have sex"
Me: "What if I don't do it"
Wife: "Then we'll just have sex"

Win win.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ok I hate to admit this.... but I wasn't the brightest bulb back in the day....in my stupidity and cluelessness.....there were times I tried to bribe him saying .."oh If you do this ...I'll make it worth your while"... and promised I'd give him a BJ... and you know what, I never even finished him off.. I was uncomfortable down there... and really needed to work on that...so I was , in effect....awful !.... 

And looking back...why did he let me do that, he had a right be .... but he never showed it... Boy if the shoes were reversed -He would not want to deal with me ! .. I just can't relate to patience like that... 

I really feel.. when women don't GET a man's incessant sex drive ....we don't understand how these little comments can wound or the man plays them up in his mind.. 

Personally I feel THIS is the best say to deal with such things.. bringing humor and a condition of your own to counter her.....


Amplexor said:


> My response would be "*A blow job now will be a sufficient retainer for my services!"*


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## WayUpNorth (Dec 14, 2013)

I was promised an evening of wild sex with her wearing stockings because I labored for days clearing some land for her. Never happened. Disappointed with that.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok I hate to admit this.... but I wasn't the brightest bulb back in the day....in my stupidity and cluelessness.....there were times I tried to bribe him saying .."oh If you do this ...I'll make it worth your while"... and promised I'd give him a BJ... and you know what, I never even finished him off.. I was uncomfortable down there... and really needed to work on that...so I was , in effect....awful !....


I did similar things. If Doug Anderson of usenet land is out there from 2 decades ago, thank you for beating some sense into me!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

The other thing that strikes me. If I ask my husband to do something, if he can, he will. If he can't, he will ask me if I think it is worth prioritizing things differently. He WANTS to help me.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

My ex-husband did this, but from the opposite perspective. If he "helped" me with something, he expected to be "paid" for his efforts. Early in the marriage it was all covert contracts, but I eventually figured out that the vibe was there. Later, he would actually tell me outright that if I wanted X or needed help with Y, I'd need to make it worth his while. He was absolutely serious.

I don't think I was ever able to get him to understand why I disliked his approach and found it a turn-off.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Rowan said:


> My ex-husband did this, but from the opposite perspective. If he "helped" me with something, he expected to be "paid" for his efforts. Early in the marriage it was all covert contracts, but I eventually figured out that the vibe was there. Later, he would actually tell me outright that if I wanted X or needed help with Y, I'd need to make it worth his while. He was absolutely serious.
> 
> I don't think I was ever able to get him to understand why I disliked his approach and found it a turn-off.


Alot of us don't like to keep giving or expending energy on a literal black hole. So you may have expected to him, that you appreciate his kindness and show it in different ways, but it's not always going to be sex.

But to have this guy slaving for you and for him to never expect nothing in return, I think is "wrong". That's just me, to me it's using someone.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Well, we got everything done on the list and then some more. The wife was very happy that we got so much accomplished. It was a team effort for sure. We made sure the kids pitched in. I think my wife enjoyed seeing me putting our son to work with tasks that she didn't think of getting accomplished today.

We ended up having our fun early, so no wait until tonight. I was barely out of the shower and just toweled off when she came into the master bath to start making out with both of us fully naked. I didn't say a word to her the whole time, pointed to the bed and "told" her where I wanted us to do the deed. We kissed like crazy while standing and I then did this little 'twist throw' to get her onto the bed and we went at it right away. Very hot and she was definitely ready. 

Her statement about offering sex for chores was much ado about nothing. Definitely was nothing more than her telling me, in a funny way, to "let's knock out our chores so that I will be excited for us to have fun together because we don't have to worry about getting this stuff done". I figured as much, but since I never heard her "make an offer" like that before, it intrigued me enough to see what others had to say and experience in their relationships. 

Learned something interesting today. My wife gets a rush trying to sneak sex during the day while the kids are all up and about. For how HD I'm supposed to be, I don't get that same rush. Not that I wasn't horny as hell and ready to go, but I would have went quicker if I knew that the kids were not on the cusp of interrupting us at any moment. BTW, we were interrupted - once - where we both had to run into the master bath and hide. At some point I may start a new thread to discuss why some people feel the rush at the risk of getting caught and what ways people get this rush (cheating not included).

I'm a very happy man right now!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

My wifee used to do this almost all the time. But after years of this, I wised up and got a pair, and I told her, not in the mood then and I relived myself. Of course, she didn't like that lose of control and the next night, she had crazy sex with me, whether the chores were done or not. Don't ever let your spouse tell you, if you do this or that, maybe sex later......that's absolute crap and abuse on their part. Put a stop to it and man or woman up or continue to be used.


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## omgitselaine (Sep 5, 2013)

Guilty as Charged 

I used to offer him a BJ with a " no jump up and spit policy " which he of course enjoyed ............. little did he know so did I so it was a WIN WIN for me  ssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!


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## CharlotteMcdougall (Mar 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> The other thing that strikes me. If I ask my husband to do something, if he can, he will. If he can't, he will ask me if I think it is worth prioritizing things differently. He WANTS to help me.


:iagree:

My husband helps me quite cheerfully. I do the same for him.

I know that my hubby would not accept me using sex as a bargaining tool. He despises manipulation.


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## CharlotteMcdougall (Mar 15, 2014)

CuddleBug said:


> M*y wifee used to do this almost all the time. But after years of this, I wised up and got a pair, *and I told her, not in the mood then and I relived myself. Of course, she didn't like that lose of control and the next night, she had crazy sex with me, whether the chores were done or not. *Don't ever let your spouse tell you, if you do this or that, maybe sex later......that's absolute crap and abuse on their part. Put a stop to it and man or woman up or continue to be used*.


:iagree::iagree:


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Alot of us don't like to keep giving or expending energy on a literal black hole. So you may have expected to him, that you appreciate his kindness and show it in different ways, but it's not always going to be sex.
> 
> But to have this guy slaving for you and for him to never expect nothing in return, I think is "wrong". That's just me, to me it's using someone.


Hmmm, yeah, that was totally it. Poor beleaguered [email protected] So sad to have a wife who worked full time, did 100% of the house work, all the cooking, all the childcare, had no problem with him having "guy's night" 1-2 times a week, supported his hobbies, was an excellent hostess for his business associates, partied with his friends, likes football, and was enjoying hot sex 5+ times a week. So, certainly, asking him to get up with the baby once or go with me to see my dying grandfather in the hospital was just me being a black hole of neediness with absolutely no return for him. And heaven forbid I wanted to have a date night that I didn't have to "pay for" with sex upfront and money at dinner. I mean, what in the hell could I have possibly been thinking to be so selfish.

I was totally using him. I mean the poor man was completely justified in trying to trade effort for sex, even though if I'd done that it would be completely unacceptable. :slap:


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## StayInIt (Jul 27, 2012)

I have never explicitly stated I will do x for you of you do y for me. Here is how it goes: with his schedule, he only really has time for chores on the weekends. If I initiate with him during my daughter's nap time, afterwards he will go outside and work for about an hour. Since we have a tiny lot, that is a big help for me. If I don't he will either watch TV, read or go to the gym. Honestly, I didn't really think this was a d**k move. I just figured it put a tired man in a good mood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Glad to see it turned out to be just playful banter :smthumbup:

My EXW tried to use sex as bartering chips and after the first few times of being blown off so to speak it was a done deal, would rather go fishing and shooting with my pals and then whack one off in the shower than slog it in the yard a whole day on a promise only to be let down.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

My STBW and I talked about this a little bit last night, and she gave me an interesting perspective on the playful side of this. There are indeed some times from HER point of view that it is still transactional in a sense. Apparently there are things that I do, non sexual things, that really get her turned on. She'll ask me to do them knowing full well that she is going to want to jump me, so her saying that she'll make it worth my while...well, I've already made it worth her while 

What we ran into early in our relationship was indeed very serious and she learned very quickly that I did not work like the social conditioning said I should simply because I'm a man...the old addage of Belly Full, Testicles Empty. Her own life experiences had only reinforced that, and unfortunately, there are a lot of men who verbalize that as well, which is a huge disservice to men. To be blunt, I think that a man who that truly applied to is at one of the lowest rungs of quality as that precludes any drive to be self sufficient, proud, provider, any of that.

It was quite a jolt for her when she discovered that I am not at all transactional when it comes sex and have no problems turning her down. I don't attach any strings to sex. I think knowing that has actually helped her open up even more sexually


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

If a woman says this: "If you do this for me, we'll have sex later... "
I would be like... "FK off!" As sex shouldn't be a bloody chore/reward/favor, it should be desired by both parties, if I find the desire isn't mutual FK IT!

If a woman says this: "Let's work hard tomorrow so we can have some fun tomorrow night"
MUCH MORE appropriate! As she has expressed her desire for sex and desire to get everything done so we can actually have some time to play!

Personally if I was in your shoes I would be p-ssed enough to just get whatever needed to be done, done... and then reject her just to make a point but that's just me 

Besides, she said the former, not the latter - though you WISH she said the latter yes? You imagine that she did but she didn't


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> If a woman says this: "If you do this for me, we'll have sex later... "
> I would be like... "FK off!" As sex shouldn't be a bloody chore/reward/favor, it should be desired by both parties, if I find the desire isn't mutual FK IT!
> 
> If a woman says this: "Let's work hard tomorrow so we can have some fun tomorrow night"
> ...


I get what you are saying here, but I think context is really important. In the case of my STBW, we have a long standing sexual track record of 10-15 times a week, many of those days, we haven't done a damn thing all day except have sex. So it is a reasonable assumption that we are going to have sex regardless of what she says. It is something she has very obviously playfully said only a couple of times are the incident I brought up earlier, and when she has, I play along, but get the clarification by saying something along the lines of how she'd get laid anyway.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Guess its in the spirit of 'how' it is said rather then 'what' is said then in that case


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

I think Plan 9 had context on his side, and the result showed. 

Plan 9, the next time this happens, push the alpha on it. Flip it right back on her "Oh really? Just for that little comment we're going to do it regardless and your going wear the trashy panties. If you don't finish, you get a spanking and we're still doing it". Then the rest of the day keep nudging her if she wants her spanking or not. 

Example of a **** test: your both sitting on the couch, and she says "I'm thirsty can you get me a drink?" It's to test your betaness. She sitting there doing nothing like you, but wants you to get the drink. Possible correct answers are, do nothing, laugh and say "hehe your funny". Tell her "get it yourself". Or say "I'm thirsty too, get me something while your in there." The wrong answer is to get her something.


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## Jamestone (Mar 30, 2014)

Not real sure of the context this was done in. But if it was a serious trade she can take her payment sex somewhere else. Thats a huge turn off for me to think I have to earn sex. No thanks. If you dont want sex for the pleasure and enjoyment of it I would much rather do without. Some people may think I am crazy and sex is sex. Not to me. If my partner is not doing it because they desire it the I will pass.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

U.E. McGill said:


> Example of a **** test: your both sitting on the couch, and she says "I'm thirsty can you get me a drink?" It's to test your betaness. She sitting there doing nothing like you, but wants you to get the drink. Possible correct answers are, do nothing, laugh and say "hehe your funny". Tell her "get it yourself". Or say "I'm thirsty too, get me something while your in there." *The wrong answer is to get her something.*


On the face of it, this happens from time to time in my marriage and I guess I fail it regularly. It doesn't happen everyday, but sometimes we'll be laying in bed and my wife will ask me to get her a drink of water. I'll get her one. But I will also ask her to do something for me and she'll do what I ask. I think within the context of my marriage that this is not an actual sh!t test for me. But I'll give full disclosure up front: I've not read MMSLP nor visited the forums there either.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Once M2 gets in bed at night I don't expect her to get up. I bring her a club soda every night and get the lights etc. 

I wake up almost every morning with a hot mug of tea on my dresser. 

That said, M2 sometimes will ask me a google type question when we are both sitting down with our iPads. And I just smile at her and tilt my head. If need be I ask her if her ipad is broken. 

I like doing nice things. As for the sh!t tests - they are simply fodder for amusement and a good wrestling match....




Plan 9 from OS said:


> On the face of it, this happens from time to time in my marriage and I guess I fail it regularly. It doesn't happen everyday, but sometimes we'll be laying in bed and my wife will ask me to get her a drink of water. I'll get her one. But I will also ask her to do something for me and she'll do what I ask. I think within the context of my marriage that this is not an actual sh!t test for me. But I'll give full disclosure up front: I've not read MMSLP nor visited the forums there either.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

OS,
Good love begets kindness of the type you describe below. 

Bad love promotes weakness. 

You handled this weekend great. Especially leadership with the kids. 




Plan 9 from OS said:


> On the face of it, this happens from time to time in my marriage and I guess I fail it regularly. It doesn't happen everyday, but sometimes we'll be laying in bed and my wife will ask me to get her a drink of water. I'll get her one. But I will also ask her to do something for me and she'll do what I ask. I think within the context of my marriage that this is not an actual sh!t test for me. But I'll give full disclosure up front: I've not read MMSLP nor visited the forums there either.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

U.E. McGill said:


> I think Plan 9 had context on his side, and the result showed.
> 
> Plan 9, the next time this happens, push the alpha on it. Flip it right back on her "Oh really? Just for that little comment we're going to do it regardless and your going wear the trashy panties. If you don't finish, you get a spanking and we're still doing it". Then the rest of the day keep nudging her if she wants her spanking or not.
> 
> Example of a **** test: your both sitting on the couch, and she says "I'm thirsty can you get me a drink?" It's to test your betaness. She sitting there doing nothing like you, but wants you to get the drink. Possible correct answers are, do nothing, laugh and say "hehe your funny". Tell her "get it yourself". Or say "I'm thirsty too, get me something while your in there." The wrong answer is to get her something.


Did you get this out of a book? It sounds verbatim "how to pretend you're a tough idiot for no reason". Do you actually do this in your marriage or are you parroting stuff you've read? 

Seriously, you wouldn't get your wife a drink if she asked you to? I get my husband tea or whatever every night while we're sitting together, sometimes I'm tired and he gets it instead. Usually he doesn't have to ask.

He asks me for drinks of water often and I get them. I ask him for things often and he gets them. If I asked my husband politely to get me something when we were both not busy and he responded in any of the ways you set out above you can believe I'd be thinking twice before getting him anything ever again.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Did you get this out of a book? It sounds verbatim "how to pretend you're a tough idiot for no reason".


What an awesome title for a book. :woohoo:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Don't assume problems fit into some simple pattern that you read out of a book. Also, I find that my relationship is dynamic, depending on what's happening in our lives. 

I'd be unhappy if all of my actions had to be filtered through a simple sieve. I don't remember if I have ever asked my husband to get up and get something for me. It wouldn't have occurred to me to do so. 

I don't think he would tell me to get it myself. That's a bit hostile, we are not enemies. Maybe something like "did you break your leg or something" in a joking way, if he did not feel like getting up.

To me, you can't tally things up day by day. Look at the general tone of your relationship over a period of time. If you have had years of mutual respect and caring attitude, why let one statement distort what you know. 

If things are bad most of the time then you'll need more that a blow by blow verbal exchange to fix things. You need a new attitude. What you say and do will be consistent with who you are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dh brought me dinner in bed Fri night, while I was typing here on TAM. We had a big day in the city, and he and the boys made dinner. He very kindly brought it in to me, and then came back to pick up the plate. I thought it was super considerate of him, and told him so.

There are reasons some marriages are not sexless.


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## CharlotteMcdougall (Mar 15, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> I think Plan 9 had context on his side, and the result showed.
> 
> Plan 9, the next time this happens, push the alpha on it. Flip it right back on her "Oh really? Just for that little comment we're going to do it regardless and your going wear the trashy panties. If you don't finish, you get a spanking and we're still doing it". Then the rest of the day keep nudging her if she wants her spanking or not.
> 
> Example of a **** test: your both sitting on the couch, and she says "I'm thirsty can you get me a drink?" It's to test your betaness. She sitting there doing nothing like you, but wants you to get the drink. Possible correct answers are, do nothing, laugh and say "hehe your funny". Tell her "get it yourself". Or say "I'm thirsty too, get me something while your in there." The wrong answer is to get her something.


This is ridiculous. Married couples who are in love do not mind taking care of each other. When I make dinner, I put a plate of food on the table for my husband to eat. I also bring him some water. He will often grab me drinks as well. 

There is a difference between being alpha and being a jerk. Men who are confident in themselves, do not need to be selfish and rude to their partners.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> This is ridiculous. Married couples who are in love do not mind taking care of each other. When I make dinner, I put a plate of food on the table for my husband to eat. I also bring him some water. He will often grab me drinks as well.
> 
> *There is a difference between being alpha and being a jerk. Men who are confident in themselves, do not need to be selfish and rude to their partners*.


:iagree:


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

How I take the OP, is not that it was a trade offer for sex...but perhaps a veiled attempt to bring in more sex into the relationship. The fact that sex was had BEFORE chore day, seems to me that communication was achieved. 

Stress, for some women, get in the way of sex...and maybe OP wife really wanted sex, but stress of housework was a hindrance...and a verbal assent of support was all that was needed to clear the runway. :smthumbup:


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Did you get this out of a book? It sounds verbatim "how to pretend you're a tough idiot for no reason". Do you actually do this in your marriage or are you parroting stuff you've read?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you learn how to read out of context from a tough idiot guide? I said it was an example. Offered up for discussion what a **** test would be, and written in the first person as a matter of literary license. It has nothing to do with getting the water or doing nice things for each other. Relax and don't get all "save his wife from him" on me. 

My SIL is famous for making my BIL jump through hoops to see if he would, not because "they do nice things for each other". Thats the essence of a **** test. 

Personally, sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn't. If she says "would you?" and I say no, well she did ask me right? It's implied I have the right to say no.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

How did I read out of context? I read the example you provided in the context you provided. 

If it was a bad example, then that's on you isn't it. And I bet it *was* verbatim copied from a book because I have read that exact example from various alpha wannabes on this board. 

The fact that MEM, an actual alpha, who knows exactly how to handle his high-maintenance wife agreed with my post should tell you all you need to know about the kind of "advice" those types of books offer.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Dh brought me dinner in bed Fri night, while I was typing here on TAM. We had a big day in the city, and he and the boys made dinner. He very kindly brought it in to me, and then came back to pick up the plate. I thought it was super considerate of him, and told him so.
> 
> *There are reasons some marriages are not sexless*.


Right there is the implied exact quid pro quo being discussed...


ETA: I am absolutely NOT suggesting that what you described was an intentional quid pro quo on your part, but when people describe something like that, and then imply that his being nice, doing something special for you is why you had sex for him, that does suggest and perpetuate the thought that quid pro quo is how it works, the two things were tied directly together.

My husband served me, therefore I have sex with him.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Right there is the implied exact quid pro quo being discussed...
> 
> 
> ETA: I am absolutely NOT suggesting that what you described was an intentional quid pro quo on your part, but when people describe something like that, and then imply that his being nice, doing something special for you is why you had sex for him, that does suggest and perpetuate the thought that quid pro quo is how it works, the two things were tied directly together.
> ...


A lot of marriages have that cause/effect look when it comes to sex. In a healthy marriage, I think it's not so much the acts of service themselves that result in sex it's the thought that each spouse expresses love to each other that opens up the intimacy. I think this is the crux of the 5 love languages idea. You want to have sex because you feel love for your spouse. You feel love for your spouse because your spouse shows you that love - by acts of service, physical touch, words of affirmation, etc. It all depends on how your spouse interprets loving acts. My wife never took the 5 love languages test, but I'm almost positive that her love language is acts of service first.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> A lot of marriages have that cause/effect look when it comes to sex. In a healthy marriage, I think it's not so much the acts of service themselves that result in sex it's the thought that each spouse expresses love to each other that opens up the intimacy. I think this is the crux of the 5 love languages idea. You want to have sex because you feel love for your spouse. You feel love for your spouse because your spouse shows you that love - by acts of service, physical touch, words of affirmation, etc. It all depends on how your spouse interprets loving acts. My wife never took the 5 love languages test, but I'm almost positive that her love language is acts of service first.


I understand and agree with what you are sating here, but depending on how it's framed...

If he does this, I have sex with him
If he does this, it really makes me want to have sex with him

Similar statements, same end result, very different message conveyed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Lyris said:


> How did I read out of context? I read the example you provided in the context you provided.
> 
> If it was a bad example, then that's on you isn't it. And I bet it *was* verbatim copied from a book because I have read that exact example from various alpha wannabes on this board.
> 
> The fact that MEM, an actual alpha, who knows exactly how to handle his high-maintenance wife agreed with my post should tell you all you need to know about the kind of "advice" those types of books offer.



Call it coincidental but it's a **** test none the less. I'd give credit where credit is due. If you can find the source please do, because I bet you can't. If you're going to accuse me of plagiarism back it up. 

And yet you attack the writer, throwing subtle insults yet have not addressed the context of my or the op's statement. Just a statement about the lack of validity of some play book and a poster I don't know giving you a like. That's cool. If you want to roll that way, awesome. It's funny.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I'm not accusing you of plagiarism unless you are trying to claim that you yourself invented the concept of sh*t tests. I am pretty sure it was Athol Kay in his MMSLP which has been discussed exhaustively on TAM and it was during these discussions that I've read that same glass of water example. Plus all the you'll get a spanking cr*p. 

If it wasn't Athol Kay, then I would guess it was someone similar. Whoever wrote NMMNG for example. 

Is that specific enough for you?

As for the OP's situation, I hate the idea of any kind of bargaining for sex because it relies on the premise that women don't like sex, that they give sex as a gift, and that there is a transactional dynamic to sex between men and women that I find unacceptable. 

I have sex with my husband because I love and respect him, I love sex with him and it keeps us close. I would quickly lose love and respect for him if he responded to normal, polite requests with "get it yourself". 

As the OP's situation sounds like it was a one-off, then I wouldn't take it too seriously. Which Plan9 doesn't appear to be doing. Unlike you.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I'm not accusing you of plagiarism unless you are trying to claim that you yourself invented the concept of sh*t tests. I am pretty sure it was Athol Kay in his MMSLP which has been discussed exhaustively on TAM and it was during these discussions that I've read that same glass of water example. Plus all the you'll get a spanking cr*p.
> 
> If it wasn't Athol Kay, then I would guess it was someone similar. Whoever wrote NMMNG for example.
> 
> ...


Much of this gets to the heart of what I was saying. There IS a stereotype alreay that women are [email protected] with sex, and a lot of the Alpha things, Athol Kay, MMSLP, counts on that in part. As you said, hand in hand with that is the thought that women don't generally enjoy and want sex for sex's sake. So many women, even those in relationship with great sex have a hard time just saying I Love sex with my husband [email protected] well, it's freakin' awesome. They feel the need to rationalize it, to make it about him, when in fact they desire it just as much as he does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I understand and agree with what you are sating here, but depending on how it's framed...
> 
> If he does this, I have sex with him
> If he does this, it really makes me want to have sex with him
> ...


I agree. I think most healthy marriages are described by the latter while most of the troubled marriages are described by the former. This is just a generalization, but I think a good rule of thumb to keep in mind. I've read some of the 5 love language stuff and I'm a believer in it. It probably goes without saying, but you can feel love for someone who is doing something for you out of love while you feel put off by someone who appears to be "buying" your affections. I think the 5 love language material helps couples to express love in a way that each partner can understand it. As an example, if my love language is physical touch, I would feel more loved by my spouse when she is giving me hugs and kisses than when she's doing things for me. Maybe in this example, doing things for me would make me feel like she was trying to buy me off. Just a hypothetical and not an actual example of my marriage.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I'm glad it worked out for you,OP! I think when spouses do this in a playful way or as a motivator to get stuff done it's flirty and sweet. 
DH and I sort of do this to get motivated for our deep cleaning day. "ugh.ok if we get started now we can squeeze in some lovin before dinner!" or DH will say to me,usually when I'm not letting him get out of bed, "that's it...no sexy time for you if I don't get the grass mowed before noon!!"  He is immediately released,of course

At first,DH was straight from living w/his momma who did every darn thing for him as far as cleaning and laundry went. It drove me batty when he started living with me and assumed all women just lived to clean and wash clothes. When we were trying to figure out the chore situation I basically told him if he doesn't help me it will take twice as long to get stuff done.Then I will start to feel resentful which makes my sex drive drop.So I guess I used sex to get the help I needed.But I love sex more than he does so I'm not sure what it means I did.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Right there is the implied exact quid pro quo being discussed...
> 
> 
> ETA: I am absolutely NOT suggesting that what you described was an intentional quid pro quo on your part, but when people describe something like that, and then imply that his being nice, doing something special for you is why you had sex for him, that does suggest and perpetuate the thought that quid pro quo is how it works, the two things were tied directly together.
> ...


That kind of post is what plants the seed in a "nice guy's (TM)" head for a covert contract. Very dangerous.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I'm not accusing you of plagiarism unless you are trying to claim that you yourself invented the concept of sh*t tests. I am pretty sure it was Athol Kay in his MMSLP which has been discussed exhaustively on TAM and it was during these discussions that I've read that same glass of water example. Plus all the you'll get a spanking cr*p.
> 
> If it wasn't Athol Kay, then I would guess it was someone similar. Whoever wrote NMMNG for example.
> 
> ...



The very definition of verbatim is "in exactly the same words as were used originally." According to a quick google. You said out of a book verbatim. That is accusing someone of plagiarism. 

Sincerely kudos to you. That's a great attitude about sex and a real positive answer to the OP. 

I did say that Plan 9 had context on his side. I think it was definitively a one off. Like I said, I would have flipped it the other way. The subtle interplay of power is a huge sexual dynamic in my house. So that's what works for me. 

If my wife throws me a shît test, I'll oblige. If it's starting to get to bad behavior, I shut it down. Understand, I am NOT qualifying a polite request as a **** test. 

Here's a real life example of a **** test from my wife:

We were at the store, I said "hey Grab some Ben and Jerry's in case you need some ice cream therapy later this week". She was like "no I'm good"

2 days later we've put the kids down and I'm reading and she's watching the dvr. She looks over and asks "can you get me ice cream from the stop and rob?" 

My answer "no thanks."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Right there is the implied exact quid pro quo being discussed...
> 
> 
> ETA: I am absolutely NOT suggesting that what you described was an intentional quid pro quo on your part, but when people describe something like that, and then imply that his being nice, doing something special for you is why you had sex for him, that does suggest and perpetuate the thought that quid pro quo is how it works, the two things were tied directly together.
> ...


To be honest, I am not even sure we had sex Fri. night. It might have been Sat. am.

No, sex is not a reward here, and affection is not a reward, either. They are both part of our life. I am always looking for more affection, though. I am pretty much always available for sex, as, to me, it is another opportunity for affection and closeness, and who doesn't want that?

I think the more loving actions in the marriage, the more closeness both people feel, and the more likely sex and affection and other good things will happen.

I can't really relate to the discussion about exchanging things. I don't think this has ever been a big deal in our marriage, or at least it is not coming to mind. 

I think if I ever did try that, dh would laugh and just tell me he would give me what I wanted without there having to be a price to pay. He is generous. It's a pretty loving, if imperfect, union.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That kind of post is what plants the seed in a "nice guy's (TM)" head for a covert contract. Very dangerous.


Just for clarification, you were referring to the post I was responding to, and not my post correct?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> That kind of post is what plants the seed in a "nice guy's (TM)" head for a covert contract. Very dangerous.


Well, my dh just does things to be nice. He is a genuinely nice person. To everyone.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you,OP! I think when spouses do this in a playful way or as a motivator to get stuff done it's flirty and sweet.
> DH and I sort of do this to get motivated for our deep cleaning day. *"ugh.ok if we get started now we can squeeze in some lovin before dinner!"* or DH will say to me,usually when I'm not letting him get out of bed, "that's it...no sexy time for you if I don't get the grass mowed before noon!!"  He is immediately released,of course
> 
> At first,DH was straight from living w/his momma who did every darn thing for him as far as cleaning and laundry went. It drove me batty when he started living with me and assumed all women just lived to clean and wash clothes. When we were trying to figure out the chore situation I basically told him if he doesn't help me it will take twice as long to get stuff done.Then I will start to feel resentful which makes my sex drive drop.So I guess I used sex to get the help I needed.But I love sex more than he does so I'm not sure what it means I did.


Do you see what you did here? You explicitly made it about the both of you. Same end result, having sex, but using it as a motivation for BOTH of you rather than a reward for him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

U.E. McGill said:


> Here's a real life example of a **** test from my wife:
> 
> We were at the store, I said "hey Grab some Ben and Jerry's in case you need some ice cream therapy later this week". She was like "no I'm good"
> 
> ...


Is it really a big deal, UE? Really? You couldn't turn it into a joke or something? 

How about telling her, "Get your coat and come with me. We'll have a drive under the stars!" And then kiss her and take her to the store.

And next time you go to the store, you just pick up the Ben and Jerry's, and when she protests, you just smile and kiss her on the forehead.

Sheesh, you guys are taking opportunities for romantic closeness and gentle, very sexy dominance, and _throwing them away._ 

Don't do that to yourselves, guys. Take advantage of what nature is bringing your way!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Do you see what you did here? You explicitly made it about the both of you. Same end result, having sex, but using it as a motivation for BOTH of you rather than a reward for him.


lol sex is a reward for both people here  How can it not be,ya know? You get to spend x amount of time focusing on each other and making each other feel amazing.Last night I got home after an insane 3 hour round trip drive to drop my son off w/his dad.I was in the worst mood and had a b**ching headache.I was like "yeah I reek.going to shower then start dinner." DH was like "uh how about shower then sexy time instead or are you not feelin it?" I had a choice at that moment.Turn him down or let him refocus my mind to more positive things. I chose sex.My whole night was better bc of it.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> To be honest, I am not even sure we had sex Fri. night. It might have been Sat. am.
> 
> No, sex is not a reward here, and affection is not a reward, either. They are both part of our life. I am always looking for more affection, though. I am pretty much always available for sex, as, to me, it is another opportunity for affection and closeness, and who doesn't want that?
> 
> ...


I'm not doubting you that sex is not a reward system for you. I just think it is very important to look at context, and how things are frames. You did frame it, unintentionally as it may have been, but you did frame it with your words as a reward of some sort.

I think it is important for people to remember that little things like that can have an impact. It is easy to assume your partner understands what you are saying, and in the context of the present, that is very valid, but perhaps the context changes, perhaps you hit a rough spot, and those types of things may be looked at through a new context.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, my dh just does things to be nice. He is a genuinely nice person. To everyone.



I'm not saying your husband has this problem. I'm saying that there are sexless men reading this forum who will read your post and think that if they do those same nice things that they'll get sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> lol sex is a reward for both people here  How can it not be,ya know? You get to spend x amount of time focusing on each other and making each other feel amazing.Last night I got home after an insane 3 hour round trip drive to drop my son off w/his dad.I was in the worst mood and had a b**ching headache.I was like "yeah I reek.going to shower then start dinner." DH was like "uh how about shower then sexy time instead or are you not feelin it?" I had a choice at that moment.Turn him down or let him refocus my mind to more positive things. I chose sex.My whole night was better bc of it.


Ok...this is just eerie...this sound just like my day yesterday...four hours of driving to get to spend 20 minutes with my son...headache, missing my son, all that. STBW gave me the opportunity to take the night off. We had sex, and the night got a whole lot better...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not saying your husband has this problem. I'm saying that there are sexless men reading this forum who will read your post and think that if they do those same nice things that they'll get sex.


Okay, to any sexless men reading this: Don't think in terms of exchanges. Just think in terms of being a genuinely good man, a man of integrity. Love your wife in the way she wants to be loved, just because it is the right thing to do.

If you do this, and she is a woman of integrity, she is going to be falling all over herself to please you. She won't be able to help herself. She will feel best when she is close to you, loving you and receiving your love.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not saying your husband has this problem. I'm saying that there are sexless men reading this forum who will read your post and think that if they do those same nice things that they'll get sex.


Yes,doing random nice things in hopes of getting laid in a sexless marriage is kind of idiotic.Instead,look for the answer for why there is no sex.
While you're trying to get to the bottom of the sexless issue,you can be a good husband still.You can do nice things but only if you're doing them bc you want to and not as a way to get sex.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Much of this gets to the heart of what I was saying. There IS a stereotype alreay that women are [email protected] with sex, and a lot of the Alpha things, Athol Kay, MMSLP, counts on that in part. As you said, hand in hand with that is the thought that women don't generally enjoy and want sex for sex's sake. So many women, even those in relationship with great sex have a hard time just saying I Love sex with my husband [email protected] well, it's freakin' awesome. They feel the need to rationalize it, to make it about him, when in fact they desire it just as much as he does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Very interesting point sir.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I'm not doubting you that sex is not a reward system for you. I just think it is very important to look at context, and how things are frames. You did frame it, unintentionally as it may have been, but you did frame it with your words as a reward of some sort.
> 
> I think it is important for people to remember that little things like that can have an impact. It is easy to assume your partner understands what you are saying, and in the context of the present, that is very valid, but perhaps the context changes, perhaps you hit a rough spot, and those types of things may be looked at through a new context.


Not to beat this to death, but I do think loving actions make for a loving relationship. The things we do for one another soften our hearts for one another, and build trust. We then just want to give to one another, and be close to one another.

And for sure, ongoing transparent communication is necessary. And it is probably a challenge for all of us.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

jld said:


> Is it really a big deal, UE? Really? You couldn't turn it into a joke or something?
> 
> How about telling her, *"Get your coat and come with me. * We'll have a drive under the stars!" And then kiss her and take her to the store.
> 
> ...


This type of dynamic happens in my marriage. Lately if someone suggests "why don't you go to the store and...", what usually ends up happening is one of us will say, "fine, but you're coming with me". The funny thing is that I don't recall exactly when it started, but I suspect the reason why we started doing this was because the kids became old enough to watch themselves. 

In U.E.'s marriage, they may have this sh!t test dynamic where the sexual tension builds. Maybe she likes seeing UE take stands on things and maybe she's intentionally pushing to see if he will stand up for himself. Honestly, that dynamic doesn't exist in my marriage. I would also caution others about when a spouse asks you to go to the store to pick up things. It may not be a sh!t test so much as a habit formed when the kids were young and someone HAD to stay behind to keep an eye on them.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not saying your husband has this problem. I'm saying that there are sexless men reading this forum who will read your post and think that if they do those same nice things that they'll get sex.


Good example of why context matters. JLD and her husband do these things outside of sex. For them, it's not a game of equivalence but two people showing love. One of the reasons why a sexless marriage, low frequency sex or "corpse sex" is an effect of an underlying cause. Trying to solve a lack of intimacy on it's own is a fools errand in many cases. If you address the underlying cause, the intimacy will follow. JMHO.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

jld said:


> Is it really a big deal, UE? Really? You couldn't turn it into a joke or something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually yes. It was a big deal. She was having a rough time for many reasons. I'd gone out at least once a week for a month on a ice cream run. I was proactive and told her to grab some, she said no. Then I ran around all night after work helping her. She knows at any point, I will go get something at the store, but chose 15 minutes after I sat down to ask me. We both can't go with 3 sleeping kids. So my answer "no thanks". 

You know what? She'll still ask me, but she knows to do it before I'm done for the night.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

jld said:


> And next time you go to the store, you just pick up the Ben and Jerry's, and when she protests, you just smile and kiss her on the forehead.


No, no, no. Tell her that ice cream makes her fat. And then spank her. 

Surefire way of getting sex.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This type of dynamic happens in my marriage. Lately if someone suggests "why don't you go to the store and...", what usually ends up happening is one of us will say, "fine, but you're coming with me". The funny thing is that I don't recall exactly when it started, but I suspect the reason why we started doing this was because the kids became old enough to watch themselves.
> 
> In U.E.'s marriage, they may have this sh!t test dynamic where the sexual tension builds. Maybe she likes seeing UE take stands on things and maybe she's intentionally pushing to see if he will stand up for himself. Honestly, that dynamic doesn't exist in my marriage. I would also caution others about when a spouse asks you to go to the store to pick up things. It may not be a sh!t test so much as a habit formed when the kids were young and someone HAD to stay behind to keep an eye on them.


I guess I am just saying, don't make things into a big conflict if it can be resolved with a little humor, or communication, or something like that. Turning everything into a big deal makes a grown man look like a little boy. Jmo.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

U.E. McGill said:


> Actually yes. It was a big deal. She was having a rough time for many reasons. I'd gone out at least once a week for a month on a ice cream run. I was proactive and told her to grab some, she said no. Then I ran around all night after work helping her. She knows at any point, I will go get something at the store, but chose 15 minutes after I sat down to ask me. We both can't go with 3 sleeping kids. So my answer "no thanks".
> 
> You know what? She'll still ask me, but she knows to do it before I'm done for the night.


I have sympathy for this situation.yes it's great to be nice to your spouse and do things bc it makes you feel good when they smile.But they also have to be considerate and kind to you in return. This ice cream situation is a really good example of the wife not being considerate to the husband.It sounds like UE would have gotten the ice cream for her no problem had she not waited til he was settled down for the evening. I do anything for DH just to see him smile but even I would have trouble if he did this kind of crap to me.I know DH would take issue with it but then again,he'd never have that problem bc I'm too considerate to do that.

ETA it's like those people who see you in the kitchen doing things but don't ask you to fetch them a glass of water til you sit down.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MSP said:


> No, no, no. Tell her that ice cream makes her fat. And then spank her.
> 
> Surefire way of getting sex.


Lolol! That works, too!

This is what I mean, turn it around and have fun with it! 

So many guys here are so sensitive, just taking things that I bet were not meant in a bad way, so seriously. 

Try to relax a little and have fun with your wife!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> I guess I am just saying, don't make things into a big conflict if it can be resolved with a little humor, or communication, or something like that. Turning everything into a big deal makes a grown man look like a little boy. Jmo.


Absolutely, but the flip side of that is to always be mindful of the message you may be unintentionally sending, and while most of the time, there would be no misunderstanding, even on a subconscious level, why not make it clear to begin with?

I like how ScarelttBegonias put it...if it is really about both of you, why not make it clear that it is about both of you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, I'll ask dh if I am "sending a message," but I am sure he is just going to laugh and wonder what the controversy is all about.

Sam, dh is just not very sensitive and does not take things personally. He saw me working here Fri. night and just thought he would bring me some food. I appreciated that, and it made me feel even more loving to him. I just thought it was sweet. 

I just think lots of loving actions make for a loving marriage.

I am not married to a "Nice Guy." I don't think in those terms, I guess.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

jld said:


> Lolol! That works, too!
> 
> This is what I mean, turn it around and have fun with it!
> 
> ...



By the way, I've never actually spanked my wife. She doesn't dig it, but that's exactly my intention. Up the tension, add a little humor and turn it around on her.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Agree totally! Never to be placed within the context of the legal elements of a contract, sex should be a "both of you" thing ~ and not a "one of you thing!"

Offers made to the other partner in return for sex richly paints it in the latter category!*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It sounds like a lot of you have lived "sex as a trade," so maybe that is why you are so sensitive to it?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> It sounds like a lot of you have lived "sex as a trade," so maybe that is why you are so sensitive to it?


I'm sure that's true. Some of us however are aware that miscommunication is the root of a lot of problems in relationships, and feel that one should try and be self aware and make sure you are sending the messages you truly want to be sending, because that is all you have control over. You can't control how the other person receives it.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

jld said:


> Okay, to any sexless men reading this: Don't think in terms of exchanges. Just think in terms of being a genuinely good man, a man of integrity. Love your wife in the way she wants to be loved, just because it is the right thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> If you do this, and she is a woman of integrity, she is going to be falling all over herself to please you. She won't be able to help herself. She will feel best when she is close to you, loving you and receiving your love.



First paragraph is good. Second paragraph is again a covert contract.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> First paragraph is good. Second paragraph is again a covert contract.


WOM, it is a reality, a natural consequence. Who can resist consistent, selfless love?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

jld said:


> WOM, it is a reality, a natural consequence. Who can resist consistent, selfless love?


JLD, I think what WOM is getting at is that the statement still comes across as transactional. In your marriage it's not because to you and your husband both WANT to have a mutually satisfying sex life. 



> *If you do this*, and she is a woman of integrity, *she is going to be falling all over herself to please you.* She won't be able to help herself. She will feel best when she is close to you, loving you and receiving your love.


Not trying to pick on you, but what I put in bold is what most "Nice guys" that don't get much respect see. It reinforces their own instincts - which tend to be wrong - in that "If I do more, my wife will put out". 

I would rephrase it like this: "If your spouse feels that you love him/her, he/she will want to return that love to you". The intimacy is an effect of finding that deeper connection where the couple has a mutual respect for each other and of course love. 

I know what you mean, it's just that not all people are as understanding as you and your husband. For you guys (and for my wife and I), we would have no issues with that statement. For others, it's a potential recipe for disaster if their marriage isn't strong to start. You can't nice your way out of a bad marriage. I think that's the point WOM is trying to make.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> JLD, I think what WOM is getting at is that the statement still comes across as transactional. In your marriage it's not because to you and your husband both WANT to have a mutually satisfying sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or vacuum yourself into her panties...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Not trying to pick on you, but what I put in bold is what most "Nice guys" that don't get much respect see. It reinforces their own instincts - which tend to be wrong - in that "If I do more, my wife will put out".
> 
> I would rephrase it like this:* "If your spouse feels that you love him/her, he/she will want to return that love to you"*. The intimacy is an effect of finding that deeper connection where the couple has a mutual respect for each other and of course love.
> 
> I know what you mean, it's just that not all people are as understanding as you and your husband. For you guys (and for my wife and I), we would have no issues with that statement. For others, it's a potential recipe for disaster if their marriage isn't strong to start. You can't nice your way out of a bad marriage. I think that's the point WOM is trying to make.


The bolded is what I _thought_ I _was_ saying.

Plan, I really do appreciate your trying to explain this to me. I have read a lot about the Nice Guy syndrome here, but it probably is not really deeply sinking in.

"You can't nice your way out of a bad marriage?" Not really sure I get this. It means that you can't act nice and think the marriage will get better? 

Okay, it probably means that when you are not well-matched, you will have deeper issues that just being nice to each other will not solve. Is that it?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

jld said:


> The bolded is what I _thought_ I _was_ saying.
> 
> Plan, I really do appreciate your trying to explain this to me. I have read a lot about the Nice Guy syndrome here, but it probably is not really deeply sinking in.
> 
> ...


This situation normally involves a "nice guy" because it seems like it's the men that tend to fall for this trap. A nice guy gets married. Over time the wife loses her attraction for the man because he's too nice, i.e. always caves in, never stand up for himself and will do anything for anyone. When a nice guy sees a problem, he tries to be even nicer and that pushes the woman away even more.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

jld - the big problem for Mr Nice Guy - he makes covert contracts for things (i.e. wife doesn't know there is a contract), like if I buy her roses, we will have sex or if I do more housework, we will have sex. This behavior, per the author of NMMNG, leads to her finding him weak and less desirous, so they have less sex, which fuels Mr Nice Guy to doing more of the things that make him less desirable to the W.

So he works harder, gets less sex and he doesn't understand why.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> jld - the big problem for Mr Nice Guy - he makes covert contracts for things (i.e. wife doesn't know there is a contract), like if I buy her roses, we will have sex or if I do more housework, we will have sex. This behavior, per the author of NMMNG, leads to her finding him weak and less desirous, so they have less sex, which fuels Mr Nice Guy to doing more of the things that make him less desirable to the W.
> 
> So he works harder, gets less sex and he doesn't understand why.


Yeah, but I think there must be more to it than that. She could always just say hey, did you really do that just to have sex with me? She could just confront him, you know?

There must not be much honest communication going on there, I think.

And I am probably not ever really going to get the whole thing, because I am not married to a "nice guy" and I have not lived sexless marriage.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

agree, but mr nice guy also avoids upsetting the woman on the pedastal. If you read the book, it is easy to see how messed up it is, but if you live it and don't know it, it makes sense, I guess?

After reading the book, i realized I was getting frustrated by covert contracts. Nowhere near as bad as portrayed in the books.. Actually I figured it out from MMSLP, but it was reinforced by NMMNG. It is on the man, for the most part, though I think women take a free pass from these authors, primarily, because the man needs the help and you can't fix your spouse as easy as fixing yourself.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

BTW - I think the wife figured out why I made changes about covert contracts in not so many words and that has helped her understand my needs better. Still a work in progress.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

jld said:


> Yeah, but I think there must be more to it than that. *She could always just say hey, did you really do that just to have sex with me? She could just confront him, you know?*
> There must not be much honest communication going on there, I think.


The problem, of course, is that she often doesn't know he's doing things just to get sex. He does something nice for her, she thinks 'Hey, that was really nice!' but whatever it was doesn't turn her on sexually. He, meanwhile, is over there brooding and steaming because whatever it was didn't get her all hot and bothered. Rather than just communicating that he would like to have more sex in the relationship, he tries to "nice" her into it without ever saying anything. Then he's mad - at her and himself and the situation - when she doesn't magically "get it". So he does something else nice thinking that if he repeats it often enough, she'll figure it out and reward him with sex. For something she doesn't see as being really related to sex. 

Please forgive this analogy, but it's like giving your dog no command, just handing him a treat, then being pissed off that he didn't sit or roll-over. So you give him another treat, thinking that eventually, he'll guess what you want. Meanwhile, he just thinks you like giving him treats. 

It can be sort of crazy-making to be on the receiving end of covert contracts. You've got a guy doing way more than you asked for, and more than you need or want, who is simultaneously seething with resentment and rage - and won't talk about it. Ever. Even when you ask. And if you actually do have what you think is a pretty good sex life for working parents of a small child, it can take years to figure out what's going on.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

Sex for chores seems a bit weird, turning sex into a commodity. 

On another level it would be great to get sex for everything I do now already rather than a drought.

Also I would find it a turn on to be offered sex blatantly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rowan said:


> The problem, of course, is that she often doesn't know he's doing things just to get sex. He does something nice for her, she thinks 'Hey, that was really nice!' but whatever it was doesn't turn her on sexually. He, meanwhile, is over there brooding and steaming because whatever it was didn't get her all hot and bothered. Rather than just communicating that he would like to have more sex in the relationship, he tries to "nice" her into it without ever saying anything. Then he's mad - at her and himself and the situation - when she doesn't magically "get it". So he does something else nice thinking that if he repeats it often enough, she'll figure it out and reward him with sex. For something she doesn't see as being really related to sex.
> 
> Please forgive this analogy, but it's like giving your dog no command, just handing him a treat, then being pissed off that he didn't sit or roll-over. So you give him another treat, thinking that eventually, he'll guess what you want. Meanwhile, he just thinks you like giving him treats.
> 
> It can be sort of crazy-making to be on the receiving end of covert contracts. You've got a guy doing way more than you asked for, and more than you need or want, who is simultaneously seething with resentment and rage - and won't talk about it. Ever. Even when you ask. And if you actually do have what you think is a pretty good sex life for working parents of a small child, it can take years to figure out what's going on.


That's a good explanation, Rowan. Thank you.

So she has to tell him, hey, be honest with me. Let's talk about it. And be open and patient until he is able to?

Maybe he will feel trust in her and reveal his feelings to her? And then she can reassure him that they can have sex just to have sex, and not related to doing jobs around the house?

She really has to be a mature, responsible leader, skilled in communication. And so patient and committed.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

QFT

JLD I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment below. 

It's equally true that it's a bad idea to ignore a steady stream of minor bad behavior. 



jld said:


> I guess I am just saying, don't make things into a big conflict if it can be resolved with a little humor, or communication, or something like that. Turning everything into a big deal makes a grown man look like a little boy. Jmo.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> QFT
> 
> JLD I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment below.
> 
> It's equally true that it's a bad idea to ignore a steady stream of minor bad behavior.


Okay, what would you call minor bad behavior?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Minor bad behavior:

Definition: Every bit as difficult to define as it is easy to recognize when encountered. 




jld said:


> Okay, what would you call minor bad behavior?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay.

MEM, not that it's my business, but do you think maybe you are a little bit controlling with your wife?

Just a question.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's a fair question. 

Mostly not. 





jld said:


> Okay.
> 
> MEM, not that it's my business, but do you think maybe you are a little bit controlling with your wife?
> 
> Just a question.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

One clarification: The minor bad behavior I speak of is intentional.

When M2 is just being difficult, well that provokes no response other than focused assistance and some level of amused banter. 

Being difficult is entirely different than being bltchy. One is just being yourself. The other has directionality to it. 




jld said:


> Okay, what would you call minor bad behavior?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks for answering my questions, MEM.


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## Fordsvt (Dec 24, 2010)

Thound said:


> Amp, you're awesome.


Yup was thinking the same,,,,,,!
Covert Contracts don't work. I use to have them too. It makes the person look weak, unattractive, and lame. 
Been done with that bs for awhile


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

StayInIt said:


> Oh, because while I can do gardening and so forth, I wasn't able to move some big rocks and stumps on my own. Since we rent, my husband doesn't particularly care how the outside looks. He works 14 hour days and the last thing he wants to do is stuff around the house. I stay at home, so the house is my responsibility. Frankly I think its a fair trade. I bet he would prefer not to work so much but he does for us. I don't mind putting out if it means I don't have to hire out help. Dude, life sucks sometimes. Better to just get one with it.


I see your point. But, somehow I'm concerned that you felt the need to offer sex as the bait rather than just be with him and let the good feelings coming from that drive him to want to helpl.

You said he works really long hours, and you know he does it to benefit the entire family. Does that not help create an attraction where you would just want to be with him? If not (and I am guessing that's the case) does that concern you?


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## StayInIt (Jul 27, 2012)

DTO said:


> I see your point. But, somehow I'm concerned that you felt the need to offer sex as the bait rather than just be with him and let the good feelings coming from that drive him to want to helpl.
> 
> You said he works really long hours, and you know he does it to benefit the entire family. Does that not help create an attraction where you would just want to be with him? If not (and I am that's the case) does that concern you?


It's not a question of me being attracted to him. I don't understand what you mean by this. I have crappy health issues that make it impossible to get aroused much less get off sometimes. But just because I am not 100% doesn't mean I can't pleasure him, especially if it means he is in good enough spirits to put aside his justifiable fatigue long enough to help out with the odd chore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

I always pay in advance.

Seems to work out fine for us.


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## MisterGadget (Feb 13, 2014)

HA HA HA.
That old trick.
do this or that and later ill do this or we will do that tonight.

I used to fall for that trick years ago and nothing ever came of it every time.

Ive found it only happens when the full moon is out and the stars are aligned on a cloudless night along with a meteor shower.


Bribes dont work with me.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"If you work hard on Saturday and complete all the things I want to get done, we can have sex tomorrow night"

Probably wasn't intended to be, but in a inverse sort of way it's a pretty sexy thing for a wife to say.

If it were me, it do the chore and have a boner while thinkin about it.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

jorgegene;8947226If it were me said:


> That shows how fewer times you have been held to ransome and robbed of sex and yet all the while held on a promise that she has no intention of fulfilling.
> 
> ExW tried it a few times, when she wouldn't entertain I quickly caught on, whacking off in the shower was way better than mowing the lawn


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