# 98% ready to give up... although I guess I should be 100% at this point



## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

I pride myself on avoiding absolutes, but sharing the details of my situation I think would lead most to tell me 100% done is where I need to be.

I've had 10 months to mull over this, so emotions are not a motivator. Revenge and justice are avoided. I'm clear in my thinking and trying to do what is best for my children and ultimately my wife.

I feel I do need to share a brief summary of where I am at:
- 10 months ago I found an excessive amount of phones calls and texting on our phone records happening between my wife and a mutual friend of ours.
- Upon confronting her she downplayed it, but eventually admitted getting emotional support from him.
- I demanded she stop talking to him immediately, he needs to be removed from the equation. She reluctantly agreed.
(My intuition suspected a lot for the last 10 months and I was right almost every time)
- a week after the confrontation, I suspected she was with him after her night class. I called and caught her with him. Abandoned industrial building. Both said it was cause they wanted to say goodbye in person (riiiight).
- She got defensive and it took her 7 weeks to block him from facebook. MC (Marriage counselor) convinced her finally it was what she needed to do.
- A few weeks later I suspected she met him again, but she threw me off. Lied to my face (I misread her lie to my face, didn't know it was that easy). Now I know she did meet him again that night.
- She was committed to keeping our marriage in tact and was giving me just enough to not give up. I was in crisis mode doing everything I could to fix, and believe.
- Spring was difficult... a few more lies and I caught her venting to another friend I was suspicious of instead of coming to me. MC and both of us were working on building walls around our marriage. She painted the picture of doing this but was still seeking support outside and wanting attention from men to sympathize with her. Creating a fantasy that she was a victim in this. Lying to them, just as much as she lied to me.
- I slowly gave up on love ever reentering the equation and resigned to the fact that maybe she is really committed and we can move on for the sake of our kids (two young girls under age of 5)
- I became apathetic, to protect myself, but at the same time continued to work like hell to be supportive for her. To communicate better. I always felt it was fake on her side. I really was genuine... looking for something to hold onto... hope. My parents describe me as an eternal optimist. I always want to believe people are good and things will be better.
- A few weeks ago I noticed some things that concerned me. suspicions. I caused me to dig.

What I found is horrifying: (the last two days she turned 100% transparent - so she says... and she's openly talking about everything in a last ditch effort to get me to stay)
- When we were dating in college she was promiscuous, sleeping around with other guys. I had no idea. This continued even into our engagement.
- One one week period when we were on a break she freaked out about me spending time with a girl and got enraged. For the last 10 years she brings that up to guilt me. I can't believe looking back now that during the same period she was having sex with multiple guys... and she's pointing to my innocent exchange with a girl as I was looking for answers while my girlfriend asked for a break.
- 2 years after we got married my wife pursued a man while on vacation at the beach (5 hours away from our house). She had sex with him a few days after meeting him. She says she liked the attention and felt she didn't have a choice but to give him sex to keep him interested. This happened while her and I were actively trying to conceive our first daughter. I'm horrified at the idea that my daughter could have ended up being someone elses. How reckless. She admits to it being unprotected sex. (I've been tested recently... no STDs thank God!). I know my daughter is mine. She looks exactly like me. I suppose I need to get my daughter tested also? She claims she knows for sure because she never had sex with the guy in the 3 month period around when she was conceived.
- 2 years later she had sex with this guy again. She says she went to visit him in an effort to prove she could stand up to him and not give in sexually. That she just wanted emotional support... but that it still lead to sex. She says after it she cried and he asked why. She said she couldn't help how she was and wanted to know why she seeks this attention. Why she never came to me with these problems baffles me. She faked to me being happy in our marriage. While telling these other men I was not giving her the attention she needed.
- Last fall she pursued this most recent guy (the one I thought was just an emotional affair). She admits now they met way more than she told me before. She also says that she desperately wanted it to turn physical with him also, but he pushed her away. She was trying to convince him she wanted to leave me to be with him and he wasn't buying it until she actually did. So he wouldn't allow her to kiss him, but they texted all the time and exchanged I love yous.
- I found out that in the 24 hours I gave her to say goodbye to him.. she created a fake account and continued to communicate with him for 5 months through our councelling and MC stuff. MC was telling me I needed to trust her, she had us both fooled. The whole time she was still telling this man she was planning to leave me. She desired to be with him. Eventually her therapist (who only found out about this man because I called and told her I hope they are talking about him; to which I got an ear full from my wife for violating her trust in trying to contact her therapist) convinced her she wasn't making a choice between him and me... it was a choice to either be married to me or not married to me.
- I think the stability I bring to her life scared her in losing that and she tried to come back to me, but she is so broken.
- For the last 10 months she'd lied to both our MC and even her personal therapist of 10+ years (she suffers depression)... neither one of them, or I, knew anything about the two men who's admitting to a physical affair with now. They also both didn't know about the emotional affair guy until I brought him up. She does a good job of playing the victim in all of this... seeking support from everyone from a "feel sorry for me" sort of way.
- I desired for her to seek help for herself. I want her to be a healthier person. It is clear to me now that it is too little too late to be open and transparent. In her transparency I see so much effortless lying that there is no way I can ever feel comfortable enough in this marriage to believe she has changed.

Someone put it a good way. I read this to my wife and she agreed:
"She has low self esteem. That explains her need for attention and the sexual abuse as a child makes that attention sexualised. On some level she thinks you are more than she deserves and appears to be subconsciously sabotaging the relationship. "

I've heard my wife say too many times that she wants to work on us... but she is a selfish person, admittedly. She has baggage and I never want to blame her for who she is. I cannot live with the lies. I don't mind helping someone get better, but she won't even do the things to help herself (how can she not talk about this stuff to her own therapist of 10+ years! Instead she lies to the therapist about me, making up stories about how she feels I don't give her attention... while coming home and telling me "You can't fulfill me, stop trying to be so involved in my life.") I cannot live with the idea that my wife has shared a bed with multiple men while putting on a smile with me. I cannot live with the idea that while telling me "oh honey, we're not in love now, but if we have kids we'll be more in love" in response to my question "I'm scared to have kids with you because I feel there isn't enough love here. Do you think that is going to change?" While she was telling me this she was sexting this guy... and having sex with him.

the lies all the way through this "healing"..

Right now she is in crisis doing everything she can to hold us together. She's being transparent (she says...) I think even if she gets help... I can't ever be ok in this marriage again. Even if she really fixes herself, I'll always feel insecure with her. I'll always be looking over my back. I hung in there for the kids... I don't want my girls growing up seeing a mother who disrespects their father. I don't want them to learn that is ok.

How do I move on in the healthiest way. I don't want her to get nasty and destructive. I don't want to either... I am a very accommodating guy - I can put up with a lot. I can keep my emotions in check, even through this. She's always going to be the mother of my kids... and involved in their lives. How do I get to mediation without her lawyering up? I'm not trying to manipulate her, at all. I feel like if I leave RIGHT NOW... she's going to equate being truthful and forthcoming with facts with being hurt by her husband leaving. Do I need to pretend for the next few months I'm trying... maybe I should really try? I don't want to fall into this trap again. I'm scared. I need her to realize that my decision to leave is based on our incompatibility (indirectly the choices she's made)... not because she's suddenly being honest with me and it is horrifying. 

Can she screw me if I leave now. Can the state (Virginia) say that I'm abandoning if she is saying she wants to continue to work on this, and I'm not? I have a text from the guy confirming the physical affair. I know the courts don't care about the infidelity, or emotions involved. I know that the courts favor the mother... how do I protect all of our assets (I don't mind her having half... we had nothing when we got married... now we have about half a million in assets between us. I'm not vengerful or out to screw her. I want her to get on her feet and be as healthy as she can for the sake of our kids). In a weird twisted way I feel like being separated from her she'll actually take my advice and confide in me more. Is that weird? While married, I'm someone to keep at a distance, separated we'll fall back into friends... both recognizing our kids need us to play nice? Wishful thinking? Why do I feel we're different there? Doesn't seem to be the reality in most divorces, does it? If it matters we were best friends growing up. We used to talk about everything. I knew her in HS. We never dated. We knew eachother for 8 years before we ever dated. We were closer then. Once we got married a wall went up with her. She became more and more distant. I feel like I married my best friend... and now I'm married to my worst nightmare.

She doesn't have a job... stay at home, but she has a college degree. I want to just split 50-50 and move on. Find a loving mother/wife someone who can be positive for my girls. I know she's going to get child support, and I don't mind that. I want my girls provided for. How do I avoid alimony? Do they even do that anymore? So many questions.

I suppose I need to schedule a consultation. Just looking for answers while I research who to see...

I'm so apathetic at this point it almost scares me. I laugh about it. I'm sad for my girls. I'm hopeful that a silver lining will present itself in this separation (and eventual divorce).

She still thinks we have hope. Do I need to be frank with her that I don't see that? Right now she knows I'm dealing with a lot of new information and evaluating. She is doing her best to be as pleasant as possible. For the first time in 10 years she wrote me a love letter today... and made me a lunch for work... and called me twice to tell me she loves me and the girls. Is this is emotional manipulation? Is her reality that she feels she's is really going to get better with me? I refuse to fall into the trap again.

Looking for advice to make this as positive as possible moving forward. My goal is to leave.


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## southernsurf (Feb 22, 2013)

Sounds like BPD, or blend of cluster B PD. So how many is the final count? You can not fix her. Unfortunately I went through something similar and all you can do is round up to 100 and get out and move on. Yes its very hard but you may be able to get the kids. Life will get better, normal people do exist! Get to a lawyer, get the facts down on paper and talk to a lawyer and put a plan in place, separate your finances now – not later. Do not tell her what you are doing or thinking. You will never make sense of it. How old are you, yrs married?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you in counseling?


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm 31... we've been married 8 years.

I have gone to counseling but found I don't really need it. A therapist just gets me to talk about all the things I'm already thinking about anyways. I don't suppress feelings or anxieties, I always have met them head on myself. Depression is something that runs in my family but luckily for me I have never once experienced it.

I don't feel like a bad person. I have a healthy outlook on this.

The marriage counseling has helped. For 10- months I've cherry picked people to talk to about this who are only positive in helping me stay in this marriage. I've avoided anyone holding me accountable for jumping from the sinking ship. This seems to have turned in the last couple days. I'm seeking healthy support, from people I can trust. 

I honestly desire what is best for her... and I. I realize that once the cord is cut, her selfishness is going to lead her to grab for whatever she can take. That is her nature. Mine is the opposite. In knowing that I need to protect myself. That is why I'm here. To get facts. To avoid screwing myself for being such a nice guy...


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

southernsurf said:


> Sounds like BPD, or blend of cluster B PD. So how many is the final count? You can not fix her. Unfortunately I went through something similar and all you can do is round up to 100 and get out and move on. Yes its very hard but you may be able to get the kids. Life will get better, normal people do exist! Get to a lawyer, get the facts down on paper and talk to a lawyer and put a plan in place, separate your finances now – not later. Do not tell her what you are doing or thinking. You will never make sense of it. How old are you, yrs married?


Final count that she's admitted to...
Three guys
Sex with two of three (attempted with all three).
None of them knew about the others... two overlapped.

She's very good at juggling all of these relationships. In a way I'm impressed. I can't begin to imagine how incredible stressful that had to be for her... maybe that is just me in her shoes? I couldn't have done it. Maybe she enjoys the rush of hiding these things?

BDP sounds right. I told her the other day that I feel like she is schizophrenic (she laughed... I meant it as a joke and glad she received it that way), but I was half serious. It's like she wants to be this happy stay at home mom 90% of the time, but needs this single promiscuous party girl life the other 10%.

I can't even rationalize that... because the 90% she's at home she's dysfunctional with me. She is very sharp about things. It is hard to ever connect. I understand some of that is just in our personalities conflicting. 

FWIW, for anyone who knows Myers Briggs.... she is an ESFJ and I am and INTJ. Over the last 10 months I've researched personality profiles a lot. It has made me healthier as a person and understanding how I interact with others. Not expecting them to interact with me the same way... we are all different. Tolerance is necessity. I suppose I'm a bit too tolerate with her. I've been trying to shove a square peg into a circle hole for far too long (no pun intended).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In reading your story, it's clear you are in the throes of codependence. If you'd had sufficient self-love, you'd have never put up with her crap all these years. Even the idea that you're 98% done (after all you've discovered) indicates unhealthy attachment to her well-being.

If you're not willing to root out your personal demons with a safe person who can help you examine what's going on, you'll find there are many more damsels in distress than you imagine. And, your subsequent relationships will be plagued by this same dynamic.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

Good insight. I do recognize that I got into this marriage to 'save her'... I always figured I'd be appreciated for that. It is unhealthy.

I need to learn to be a bit more selfish. If it makes sense I am certainly too giving. Allows me to be taken advantage of.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

fwiw, the 98% done is really just my idea that I hate to be absolute. I don't want to be judged. I guess that is a defense mechanism. Writing is on the wall at this point... if that isn't obvious.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

One thing I've recognized is that I avoided talking about almost all of this with my parents (happily married for 35 years). I felt like a failure and didn't want to burden them. Foolish of me... trying to fix something at my own expense. I see now this was never about me... it is her.

In the last week I've shared the details and they are supporting me in leaving her. I was shocked... because I thought my family always had a "divorce is never an option" stance. I grew up seeing my parents support and stand by each other through everything. I think that gave me the mindset that I would do the same.

It's an eye opening thing to see them telling me that my girls will be healthier (and me too) away from this woman.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Truth,

I am living alot of what you have written. We married very similarly broken women.

I recommend having at least one legal consultation. You need to know what to expect in terms of custody, alimony, etc. Additionally, there may be steps you can take before telling your wife you are divorcing to ensure the best outcome for your kids.

I recommend getting a good counselor for yourself. You need to find one that specializes in bordeline and/or PTSD from childhood sexual abuse. This isn't primarily to help you heal. It is to help you navigate your interactions with your wife. Someone who deals with emotionally broken people alot will be invaluable in you endeavor to become independent in the most healthy way for everyone.

From what you have written, I strongly suspect your wife has borderline tendencies if not full blown BPD. When you try to leave it will get ugly. Your best intentions cannot stop a bloodbath if that what she goes for. By leaving her you are going to trigger her abandonment feelings. 

My guess is she will not be able to deal the emotional fallout. Often times BPD individuals will do anything they can to regain some semblance of control. Expect craziness from her...hypersexuality, false domestic abuse claims, using the kids. Be prepared for the worst. How you go about this can make a huge difference in the process and outcome. But you have to do your homework and eat some sh1t sandwiches.

Don't expect her to do what is in her (or the kids) best interests. If she could have done that up to this point, she wouldn't have made the same choices. She feels worthless, ashamed, and empty on the inside, and my guess is she will subconsciously destroy whatever gestures or concern you exhibit during this process. She wants to hurt herself, and she thinks that is what she deserves.

Also search for posts on TAM by Uptown. He is a wealth of knowledge on BPD.

Sorry you are going through this.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TheSearchForTruth said:


> Looking for advice to make this as positive as possible moving forward. My goal is to leave.


Truth, I agree with the excellent advice already given by WTF, SouthernSurf, and Conrad. As WTF observes, the D is going to get nasty really quick if your W has strong traits of BPD as you suspect. I therefore offer several suggestions:

*As an initial matter,* although you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Second,* I suggest you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ It was written by Randi Kreger.

*Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and "Parenting after the Split" board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. If you would like to read more about what it's like to live with a BPDer spouse, an easy place to start is my description at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522.

Significantly, about 3/4 of BPDers also suffer from at least one other PD as well. Hence, if your W really does have strong BPD traits as you suspect, she likely has another PD too (together with a clinical disorder like depression or anxiety). I mention this because many of the behaviors you describe are classic traits of Histrionic PD (e.g., the attention seeking and seductive behaviors) and, to a lesser extent, Antisocial PD (e.g., the repeated unabashed lying and serial cheating).

*Fifth,* I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your two daughters are dealing with -- and how likely it is your W may pass the BPD traits on to them. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. 

Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of their disorder. Hence, relying on your _W's therapist_ for that information would be as foolish as relying on _her attorney_ for candid advice during the divorce. It is important you obtain candid advice from a professional who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your W.

*Sixth,* I suggest you carry a VAR in your front pocket to record temper tantrums and rages. And be sure to call the police if physical abuse occurs. The objective is to acquire a body of evidence that can be used during the child custody battle. If you acquire enough, the judge may even be willing to order a psychiatric evaluation of your W. 

Meanwhile, try to avoid being arrested yourself -- a situation that commonly occurs when a BPDer is being divorced or fearing abandonment. My BPDer exW, for example, had me thrown into jail for three days on the bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. Because a BPDer is always convinced she is "The Victim," she will regard having her spouse arrested as the ultimate proof, i.e., the equivalent of earning a Harvard PhD in victimhood.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Your thread has already attracted over 300 views in just two days.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

Update: 
I am seeing a Family Law Attorney that specializes in special needs children. I didn't explain the details above, but our 2 year old has a congenital heart defect (HLHS). She spend 4 months in the ICU under the age of 6 months. She has one more major open heart surgery to go in the spring. She is a champ, but required an incredible amount of health care. Luckily I have great insurance who covered 99% of the $1.7 million in medical bills we've received to this point.

I am being very cautious about this but wanted to throw out what has happened between us in the last few days. I think most will say to avoid talking to her all together... I think that will cause her to go crazy (maybe she will regardless). What I've actually seen appears to be the opposite.

I told her I wasn't comfortable with physical contact, except hugs for the moment. I explained to her that because she didn't see an emotional breakdown or outburst from me upon hearing the news that she had had a physical affair is evidence that I have emotionally detached from this over the last 3-4 months after seeing her not putting a real effort into the marriage counseling. 

She has since been extremely pleasant, even in her emotional crying, towards me. She says she feels I'm transitioning back into the role I was in for her in HS and college (before we dated and got married). That I'm offering her personality support and guidance in being a better person. She says she appreciates it. She says she knows she needs to get help and recognizes that the bridge between us may be unrecoverable. I confirmed that for her... saying you never know about the future... but I feel that I will always have an insecurity being vulnerable to her again after what has happened. 

Last night she said "I'm getting healthy for myself, and in that I hope it makes me a better person for you... or whoever comes next in my life." Sounds like she understands separation and divorce is coming, even though I'm purposefully being a bit ambiguous about it until I see the lawyer tomorrow (she doesn't know about).

I explained to her that if she could remove herself from this situation and look at where we are "do you recognize that most of your choices have been self serving?" to which she agreed. She said that she sees I'm a great man and knows I'll always be her friend. She said that maybe in that we'll actually end up better parents apart.

I recolonize that there may be some crazy and emotional outbursts coming when we sees this is a reality. My feel right now is she's holding on to hope for the sliver of possibility that I'll change my mind seeing she's working on her. 

I know it is playing with fire to try and console and help her help herself at this point. I can't help but try as long as I don't put myself in a worse spot. Most of those questions will be answered tomorrow.

Should I stop sleeping in the same bed as her?
I have a trip for work coming up that I simply cannot miss (leaving for 5 weeks 3 weeks from now). It could be really bad for my career to cancel this? Could she use that against me?
How exactly does separation work? 
How exactly does the money stuff work (we have all shared accounts and cards)
What about our $900K house we JUST moved into 10 days ago!
(I'd assume we'll hold onto it through the separation period and split time there with the girls... we both have family in the area that we could stay with in the other times).

I need to avoid worst cases that I hope never come up. Protect myself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

TheSearchForTruth said:


> She said that she sees I'm a great man and knows I'll always be her friend.


Never agree with her on this (in your heart)

This is to assuage her guilt.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

TheSearchForTruth said:


> Update:
> I am seeing a Family Law Attorney that specializes in special needs children. I didn't explain the details above, but our 2 year old has a congenital heart defect (HLHS). She spend 4 months in the ICU under the age of 6 months. She has one more major open heart surgery to go in the spring. She is a champ, but required an incredible amount of health care. Luckily I have great insurance who covered 99% of the $1.7 million in medical bills we've received to this point.
> 
> I am being very cautious about this but wanted to throw out what has happened between us in the last few days. I think most will say to avoid talking to her all together... I think that will cause her to go crazy (maybe she will regardless). What I've actually seen appears to be the opposite.
> ...


So alot of these questions can only be estimated by an attorney for your locale. Hopefully your meeting will go well.

As for sleeping in same bed, I wouldn't recommend it if it was me. I would have a hard time if you know what I mean. It's crazy how I can disdain my wife, but still want to roll in the hay sometimes. Also BPDs are notorious for using their sexuality to get what they want. Plus if you want to communicate that you are done with the marriage, nothing says done like not sleeping with you. YMMV

If you can provide her some emotional support, it may ease things quite a bit. My excellent therapist has recommended that I offer very limited emotional support to my STBXW if I can. I have found that when I do this, things are smoother between us. But it was impossible for me to find the right balance between protecting myself and supporting her. Plus she really pi$$es me off how she behaves and sees the world now. It was really hard to listen to my STBXW talk about other guys, so I stopped engaging almost completely with her. If it ain't about the kids, then I don't give a $hit. It really has been the best for me.

You may get some guys screaming "codependent" at you on her for "helping" her like a "white knight." But the bottom line is you care(d) about her and she (probably) is the mother of your children. She is going through a rough time, and if she has any clue she is thinking it's about to get rougher. I can totally see why you have the desire to help her if you can. Just be very careful with your own feelings. You need to be the stable one for yourself, your wife (because she can't), and your kids. If it feels like a roller coaster, hit the brakes. Also your help may be the best thing for the kids. Your wife sounds broken. Broken people usually don't have their sh!t together. Broken people are often deficient in some ways as parents. Yes, people need to hit bottom to change, but I have reservations about letting the kids go for the ride. I hope you can find the right balance.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

TheSearchForTruth said:


> I'm 31... we've been married 8 years.
> 
> * I honestly desire what is best for her... and I. I realize that once the cord is cut, her selfishness is going to lead her to grab for whatever she can take. That is her nature. Mine is the opposite. In knowing that I need to protect myself. That is why I'm here. To get facts. To avoid screwing myself for being such a nice guy..*.


Wow, you are SO YOUNG! Way to young to have to be dealing with such a heavy burden! 

In regards to what I have bolded above... Please be prepared/aware that once you do split, and are finally divorced, that she is going to continue trying to turn to you to help her. You are going to have to deal with her about your kids, so going no contact wont really be an option, but you will need to decide, and stick to, boundaries, when it comes to her. If you help her out even once, she will keep coming at you, give an inch, she'll take a mile. I went through this with my ex husband and his ex, so I know. It destroyed us. So, its good to keep this in mind in the likely event you will have other relationships in the future.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

I know this is a public forum. I've removed names involved, but because I may use this as evidence at some point I'd appreciate if people here do not quote directly from the following texting exchange. Basically please refrain from quoting between the * lines. Thanks.

**************please do not quote****************

edit: (removed by poster)

***************
(Reminder again, please do not quote sections above in response. If anyone thinks I should delete this now to protect myself please let me know. I'm trying to get insight into how helpful or not this will be when I'm guessing my wife plays dumb to her admissions later). From what I understand in VA, adultery is grounds for no spousal support. I hear mixed things though. Some say since she is a SAHM she can counter it anyways?
Maybe this should just stay between lawyer and me?
Advice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm wondering if I should text this guy again about more specific details that I now know from my wife's transparency? She described the sexual encounters to me in detail. Every event that lead up to them. I coyly asked my wife after to put it in an email to me, to which she responded "why would you want that?"... I wasn't thinking. Looking back that was a stupid request, my guess is she knew I hadn't thought that through before asking, but I'm sure it still stuck with her and she'll be defensive against it now. She was just being so open about it I figured it was the right thing to ask at the time.

I'm not sure if this is even smart or helpful but can I ask her as a sign of good faith moving forward that she write something out and sign it so that I can feel more comfortable that she won't do it again. Implication being that if she's truthful sorry and wants us to get better, it'll ease my mind knowing I have that later to use? Sounds manipulative and I'm sure that can backfire right? Again, I'm just trying to be smart. I want to follow what the law says... If it says I don't owe spousal support than I can't help but be mad later if she denies the affairs in an effort to get it. If the law does protect that for her for whatever reason then I'm going to pay it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Truth, I suggest you delete post #16 above. The only point of revealing that much detail to us is to obtain legal advice, which we are not qualified to give. You should be speaking to a good VA divorce attorney about the value of this information in court.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Truth, I suggest you delete post #16 above. The only point of revealing that much detail to us is to obtain legal advice, which we are not qualified to give. You should be speaking to a good VA divorce attorney about the value of this information in court.


I would delete it also.

You still seem to want to know "why" a disordered person does disordered things.

I can tell you, the answer is irrational fear.

Fear of abandonment. Fear of engulfment. Fear that she has no conscience. Fear of "not living" Fear of losing her attractiveness.

Trust me, trying to understand her in this won't help you.

Trying to understand YOU will help you a great deal.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. I feel myself more confident in what I already know needs to be done. I don't want to sway her from getting help, but I need to realize none of this is my burden to take on. The only obligation I have to her is to respect her in my children's eyes as their mother. She always will be.

I'm going in a few hours to see the attorney. I'm hoping to arm myself with information so that I don't make any stupid mistake, but my hope is that by tonight I will have a talk with her and lay it out. Tell her I wish the best and I am here to support her non emotionally, but what has happened is unrecoverable. Tell her that I admire her decision to seek help and improve herself and that who knows where that might lead... but that right now we must move towards separation. She'll get hysterical and cry... beg plead... then I'm sure she'll turn nasty for a period of time, maybe week or even months. My hope is to stay calm and explain to her we are doing this for the best interest of our kids. I need to avoid being an emotional outlet for her as she deals with the reality of this. I also need to avoid suggesting or guiding her in what to do... she needs to learn to take that on herself. 

Hopefully she'll take on that challenge in a constructive, and not destructive kind of way. That I cannot control.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

TheSearchForTruth said:


> Thanks for the advice. I feel myself more confident in what I already know needs to be done. I don't want to sway her from getting help, but I need to realize none of this is my burden to take on. The only obligation I have to her is to respect her in my children's eyes as their mother. She always will be.
> 
> I'm going in a few hours to see the attorney. I'm hoping to arm myself with information so that I don't make any stupid mistake, but my hope is that by tonight I will have a talk with her and lay it out. Tell her I wish the best and I am here to support her non emotionally, but what has happened is unrecoverable. Tell her that I admire her decision to seek help and improve herself and that who knows where that might lead... but that right now we must move towards separation. She'll get hysterical and cry... beg plead... then I'm sure she'll turn nasty for a period of time, maybe week or even months. My hope is to stay calm and explain to her we are doing this for the best interest of our kids. I need to avoid being an emotional outlet for her as she deals with the reality of this. I also need to avoid suggesting or guiding her in what to do... she needs to learn to take that on herself.
> 
> Hopefully she'll take on that challenge in a constructive, and not destructive kind of way. That I cannot control.


Quit talking so much.

Talk less, do more.

Don't tell her anything.

Lead.


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## southernsurf (Feb 22, 2013)

I’m also from Va and I can tell you get to a good lawyer. Child with needs, BPD issues with SAHM, to many issues here, get council you trust and believe has your best interest. She will do the same, if not already. It will get ugly fast, you will pay CS. Whether or not she hits you hard for alimony is the question. My guess, with what little I know about your situation, is yes, you will pay! Typically in VA the standard is ½ the length using the formula since you haven’t done anything wrong. Lawyer can help you there; you may be able to negotiate. It doesn’t matter too much what she did. Remember this – once the legal process starts she is not your friend. Do not tell her anything you are doing or thinking or give her any advice. You probably already tipped your hand in asking her to write down the facts of the A. You need to minimize the damage. She won’t admit guilt once this starts – and the facts will change. The best way to prove adultery to a court of law and compile evidence is while its happening in real time and when the W doesn’t know that the H knows about it. What she’s done in the past may not help you with an adultery claim. Its important info for you to make a final decison on the M, but the court may not care about the details. If she still sees OM then you may need a PI and require new evidence – probably too late for that and since the D process is starting. You will have to go with the evidence you have, adultery is hard to prove, you will be pretty much on your own going forward. Typically at this point no one tells or remembers anything. Again keep it to yourself, do not share advice with her. Keep all records especially all money transactions. Close joint credit cards and checking accounts. Open a new for you and give her an allowance – your lawyer will help you here. Keep records. Treat this like a business and she is a competitor. You pay the bills from the new accounts. Don’t write anything in an email that can hurt you! And yes, as others have said stop sleeping with her. Good luck, head up feet forward.


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## MSC71 (Aug 1, 2012)

Actions speak louder than words. Do what you need to do. No need to tell her anything at this point.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

I downloaded an app for my phone and put black screen on and records. Sat down on the couch tonight to "chat" where I recorded a 20 minute discussion about the details, dates, times, names of the physical affair. Even mention of when our daughter was with her and wasn't with her around this guy. Snuck in asking her to confirm her SSN at the beginning 'I had to fill out paperwork today, and I always forget."

Hopefully that will never need to be used. Going for no fault in an attempt for it not to turn ugly (better for the kids and both of us, as I'm told by the attorney)... if it does I am prepared.

So far so good. Wedding ring is off and I'm sleeping in the 4th bedroom upstairs. She had her mom come over to comfort her after I told her I wasn't in a position to provide that kind of support anymore. She ended up taking an anti-anxiety pill (xanax) and fell asleep.

Guess we'll see how Day 2 goes.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

Listened to the recording again this morning and it is extremely solid. I'm going to take it to the lawyer, but I'm sure we'll still move forward with a "no fault" because that is in the best interest of the kids (and ultimately me as well). This will just be evidence later, if the mediation doesn't work out. For the record I don't feel I owe her anything, but I do want her to get on her feet for the sake of our children. I know she will have them 50% of the time. Her language right now is that she is getting help for herself. That is critical, as the huge variable here for how the kids turn out is her mental and emotional well being moving forward. I'm resign to the fact that I cannot push her there, it's not my job to help her anymore... I'm just telling her I think that can only be good for her. Said, I'm happy to hear you're choosing to continue seeing our therapist that knows the details of this.

The recording I took sounds like a disposition. She confirms vaginal intercourse with the guy, and also gives his first and last name (spells it out). She describes how they first met and how they ended up having sex 3 days after the first encounter. She describes asking her mother to watch our daughter while she went to do this, willing participate planning in advance to be alone with him. She says there was really no talking that time, she just went there to have sex, then left. She also says her social security number in the recording, as well as describing how and when her feelings started to develop for the second affair guy (that was emotional not sexual).

In my state it is legal to record someone if you are a member of the discussion. Clearly the case here. At the end I get up to walk away and carry my phone (I guess normal behavior for me is to leave my phone on the couch instead of taking it with me to get water from the kitchen). She asked "Wait, you weren't recording that were you?" to which I didn't answer. Then she said "let me see your phone?" and I told her "no". She suspects I have this recording. Not sure if it is good or bad for her to actually know. I don't want to push her into a corner... maybe it'll have the opposite effect and convince her she really needs to work in mediation with an open mind.

Attorney said there is a 5 year SOL for the infidelity... we're past that on the 2007 sexual exchange between them. The second one she said she didn't remember if it was fall 2009 or spring 2010, but confirmed it happened and said she remembers them using a condom. I wonder what happens if the SOL deadline hits during the separation (since one year from now will be the 5 year point from that time)? 

She added new information that I hadn't heard before. Sometime after the 2010 sexual encounter they were skyping while our daughter was sleeping and he masturbated so she could see it. She said he was always trying to impress her. I could help but ask "was this like an American Pie thing? You encouraging him on?" her response "We weren't talking at all when it happened, I think he just wanted me to watch it."

Details are so odd. I'm glad this is all coming up while I'm emotionally detached. I can only laugh about some of this. I hope my daughters never have to walk in on something like that.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

How is it going truth?


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

I've been getting some good mentoring from a trusted source at work who has dealt with this a lot, a very smart guy who is thinking big picture. Best outcome is for wife and I to work civilly through this so that we end up respecting each other on the other side. Ultimately that'll be best for our girls. So far his advice has been working well. Seems to have been productive for my wife... she's actually in therapy instead of yelling, screaming and crying at me over why I'm leaving.

I'm definitely in the 100% done camp now. My wife still says she is changing for the better but I've made it clear to her that she is not changing or getting help for me. She is in therapy, with the marriage counselor who knows the whole story... they are working through her issues. I've stopped seeing that counselor because of the conflict of interest and a statement that I'm not longer working to resolve the marriage... I refuse to be a part of her getting help because then she'll ultimately be let down and vengeful for me not coming around after seeing her transformation - her goal/desire at the moment. She seems to understand this and I've been consistent and kind with the message. "You are getting yourself healthy, so that no matter what happens down the line (with me or without) you will be better equip to handle life stresses and struggles." Clearly we're only a week or so in, but it is getting easier on her. I'm still apathetic, no feelings reemerging... don't think that is possible at this point.

Hardest part is sharing time in the house right now. I'd rather be in my own place. Long story there... we just moved into a new house 3 weeks ago. Our budget is tight... it needs to be sold. She is horrified by this idea. She freaked out on me the other day when I contacted our realtor to tell them we wanted to explore options to sell and look at the most promising time frame (likely spring). I need to protect her from that I guess and get the info myself so that when this becomes a reality to her (it slowly is) we'll have the info to move head smartly.

So here is the gist of it at the moment:
I'm in the process of writing up separation agreement for my wife to review and sign - I'm writing it so that it can also be used as the divorce agreement. Our desire is for this to be a "no fault", wait 1 year through separation and move on with our lives. She isn't fully on board with this yet (understandably so because of the shock in my reaction to the news). She is holding out hope that just being the good wife will help me to "come around" and stay. I'm being extremely consistent in countering that. I'm very kind to her, but clearly emotionally detached... when she cries I leave the room. It's all business at this point. I told her I'm there to support her as a friend though and will always desire to be in that role for her if she needs me. No hugs, no emotions though. I'm sensing at some point she'll realize she doesn't have a choice and that fighting this will work counter to everything including our girls well being, financially, and the ugliness of outing this situation to our family and friends. Well, she does have a choice... but it is either sign and go for "no fault" or hold out and force me to file with her at fault presenting all the evidence of the multiple affairs.

We've been telling everyone "Wife and I are separated with the intent to divorce. We obviously wouldn't take this step lightly and respect each other too much to talk about the details. We appreciate the support and please know we're looking out for our daughters best interest."

I need to run these papers by my lawyer and just be prepared for responding to whatever her reaction is. I'm not sure if she'll actually sign them. 

Despite what she's done I don't desire to leave her without anything. Half of everything is hers (law)... and I'm offering up spousal support ($30K a year) to allow her to not work for 3 years until our youngest is in school. I personally feel this is just the right thing to do, and believe it'll provide the best situation for my girls. Obviously I'm adding in the obvious that if she gets a job or remarried/engaged that it stops. There is a risk if she doesn't sign that in litigation she'll get nothing (Virginia takes adultery into consideration for negating spousal support). And I have her own confession to it on tape with details.

I'm trying to write this as though if she took it to her own lawyer he'd say "really? He's offering you this? You would barely get that best case even if you fought him, and you have a lot to lose in doing so... Sign it." Best for all involved to leave litigation out of this.

Oddly there is a sense in the last week that wife and I have reverted back to our HS habits... before we ever dated. Like we're acting as friends and actually respecting each other. Communicating better. emotional pulling and manipulation seems to have vanished. I'm seeing my part in that was to be a doormat... now that I'm not she is respecting me more? Must be a lot to psychoanalyze there. I know I haven't felt respected by her in over 10 years. This is not clouding my judgement moving forward... it is giving me hope in the kind of relationship we'll have moving forward with this divorce. The relationship our daughters need. She joked the other day "we'll be that cool ex couple who gives each other a high five when we pass off the kids!" - lets hope she maintains that mindset!

1 week in - So far so good.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

One week is too soon.

This thing is a process. Your feelings will come up for her at sometime.

You sound like you are making the best of a bad situation. You sound like you are doing the right things. Make sure that rcording is backed up in several places. 

My advice FWIW.

Don't expect her to act in her best interest.

Get this agreement done now while she is being nice.

Have a lawyer go over everything before you give it to her.

Awesome job on limiting the emotional support.

Awesome job on the consistent, no drama, calm communication.

Expect her lawyer to complicate things.

Be optimistic but prepared for the worse.

When I made the first separation offer (with as PHT Lump says "cash and prizes") including a new car, rehabilitative alimony, slightly less than 50/50 co parenting time, I told my attorney I want to accomplish 3 things with this offer:
1. I want to feel like I am doing the right thing
2. I want you (my attorney) to think I am an idiot for being so generous
3. I want her attorney to tell her there is now way you are getting better than this offer in court.

My attorney told me I was being too generous.

What I got for this generosity was a completely unrealistic counter offer that there is no way I can afford.

Turns out my nonworking, cheating, BPD STBXW knows her living conditions are about to take a tumble. Her thought is she will just drag this thing out for as long as possible to avoid having to support herself. 

Don't believe what she is saying right now. She sounds very invested in her breadwinner, and she will put on a big act to try and keep you. If she does have BPD or strong BPD tendacies, it will get crazy, contentious, and painful when you really start separating.

Thoughts are with you, and keep us posted.


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## TheSearchForTruth (Sep 27, 2013)

Great advice and insight. Thanks!


Can't get in to see the Lawyer until Tuesday (hurry up and wait) to try and get some last questions answered about my separation agreement before I put it in front of her to sign...

Anyway, while I wait I thought I'd ask here. Can't hurt, right? 

At the risk of jumping way to far ahead of myself... If a husband records his wife at home (in Virginia) confessing to a crime (adultery) and the wife asks in the middle of the recording if she is being recorded and he answers "no", can the recording still be used as evidence in court to prove guilt of the confessed crime?

Virginia law is fairly clear that as long as one person involved in the conversation between two is consenting to the recording (me, I am!) then it is legal. I'm freaking out when I probably don't need to because of some wiretapping laws stating it is a felony to record someone in what is deemed a "private setting"... but also some verbiage in there about oral as well. I'm suspecting this is talking about recording two people when you are not involved (the difference between public, vs. private and not getting consent from either). However, I would hate to bring this out in court and have it come back on me as a felony... that would ruin my life...

Virginia Recording Law | Digital Media Law Project




> The wiretapping law covers oral communications when the speakers have an "expectation that such communication is not subject to interception under circumstances justifying such expectations," Virginia Code § 19.2-61, But absent the speakers' justified expecation, the law does not apply. See Belmer v. Commonwealth. Therefore, you may be able to record in-person conversations occurring in a public place, such as a street or restaurant, without consent. However, you should seek the consent of one or all of the parties before recording any conversation that an ordinary person would deem private.
> 
> Violation of the Virginia law is a felony, punishable by imprisonment and fine. See Virginia Code § 18.2-10 for more details. In addition, while recording a telephone conversation with the consent of only one party is legal in Virginia, a lawyer’s recording of a telephone conversation without the consent of all parties was found to be unethical under the Virginia Rules of Professional Conduct (United States v. Smallwood).


My assumption is this is talking about consent to record two other people. Am I correct that in Virginia, no matter what, as long as I am involved in the conversation and the other person is in Virginia also with me... I can record it.


Again, hoping this is never needing to be used. Best to be prepared if she leaves no other choice.


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