# 'Friends' contribution to infidelity



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

My thread is here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/46264-headspinning.html in case anyone wants to read it and basically as a latest update we’re planning ahead for a year apart (she’s already moving into a new 6 month rental next w/end) so for me I can see divorce will inevitably be the result.

Since she was gone in the last 6 weeks of course I have time to reflect on things and have a couple of major points one about our respective friends.

Her friends are long standing who were there since before me and when I arrived just started giving up on her with her mental problems that had pushed her to suicide. So there was always a huge “poor ?” (name withheld) element to their support.

Along I came, we fell in love and although, lover, later husband I largely I took over that role of ‘carer’, which has helped her change into the much stronger ‘different’ person she is now who can easily pull off all the terrible things she has in recent years.

Obviously we all have friends from before we were married. My point here is how have these ‘friends’ affected your marriage especially the infidelity side of things?. I know some of them have encouraged her and to their credit some only a couple have said “what on earth are you doing you crazy woman – that’s all wrong” tbh. I’m surprised that not more of them have been honest but it seems their need to “support her” makes them not be honest with her. 

A year or so ago ago one of them was actively telling her she should leave and go off with whoever etc etc. Their loyalty seem such that they actually don’t ever do the real honest thing themselves and say ‘NO. stop it. I’ll support you but you are destroying the lives of your kids your husband and with every married man you have an affair with those lives too - Now stop.

They seem to roll into this type of (sorry girls) this teenage girlie type of dripping gossipy excitement and want to know the details of who my wife is having now – today, with all the news! And of course that has fueled it.

Is this what any of you have experienced? 

For my own part I have lost very close friends in the past when although supporting them I have drew the line at say actively ‘helping them (with alibis) and tbh I have found it very easy to say “look I love you as a mate but what you doing now cheating, lying, deceiving - that is simply the a wrong thing to do to somebody you love and have had a great marriage with - now sort your head out and stop hurting people” 

Personally I do not find it difficult to separate the loyalty friendship thing and the reality of the pain it causes and it has never stopped me being truthful even if it hurts.

These friends have a huge effect imo and often give the WS the validation they need to keep on with it.

Is this the general case for most of you too? Have yours or your spouse’s ‘friends’ in a real way contributed to the downfall of your marriages.

Also can you be honest with your own friends if they are a wayward spouse? nomatter how loyal you want to be?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OK, so let's look at this from a different perspective. Would a real, true friend encourage someone to wreck their marriage?

No. A real, true friend would not. But jealous, nasty people who really want to see your wife crash and burn (for whatever reason) they would encourage someone to wreck their marriage. Just a thought...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My wife and I were treating ourselves to a McDonalds the other day (It's the American Classic Burger season!) and there were a group of people at the table next to us.

They were all young professionals who worked for the same company (accountants or similar, I thought) and they were talking about a colleague who I presumed, from what they were saying, was married. They were of the opinion that he was "boring" so they had taken it into their heads to set up some accounts for him on some "dating" sites so that he could get some fun into his life.:wtf:

I thought: "With friends like that, he needs no enemies!"


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Many, many women are toxic as hell.
It seems to be the default.

I went to my wife's job the other day for her to pick up her check.

Her co-workers have never met me and I waited outside.
One co-worker my wife hangs with a lot saw me through the plate glass window and asked who I was.

My wife told her "That's my husband".
The co-worker (who never met me ) replied "since when do you hang out with him?" in a disparaging tone.

My wife replied "I always hang out with him."

There was no need or reason for this exchange besides the fact that apparently to this bitter divorcee all husbands suck and she just can't fathom why you'd have anything to do with them.

I see a lot of this among women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonymouskitty (Jun 5, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> OK, so let's look at this from a different perspective. Would a real, true friend encourage someone to wreck their marriage?
> 
> No. A real, true friend would not. But jealous, nasty people who really want to see your wife crash and burn (for whatever reason) they would encourage someone to wreck their marriage. Just a thought...


:iagree:

With friends like these who needs enemies???:scratchhead:


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

Divorce leaves a lot of bitterness in its wake, and lack of faith in marriage as a long term valuable commitment, it's not only applicable to divorced women...


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I honestly don't see the reaction in men in the same way.

Bitter men just seem to warn any other man away from marriage in general.

It appears as if the female drive for socialization exasperates this phenomena.

"gossip"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Many, many women are toxic as hell.
> *It seems to be the default*.


...ever since they left the kitchen.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> OK, so let's look at this from a different perspective. Would a real, true friend encourage someone to wreck their marriage?


:iagree:


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Mostly, People suck.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I honestly don't see the reaction in men in the same way.
> 
> Bitter men just seem to warn any other man away from marriage in general.
> 
> ...


As a woman, I'd like to be able to say you're wrong, but I can't. There does appear to be a greater 'need' to gossip and indulge in 'oil pouring' amongst (some) women :-(


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> As a woman, I'd like to be able to say you're wrong, but I can't. There does appear to be a greater 'need' to gossip and indulge in 'oil pouring' amongst (some) women :-(


Well that's interesting Cosmos because I was about to ask a few more woman to contribute to this thread and it does look like there is a basic difference with how the sexes manage this type of thing

Liike some of the guys above Ive often been in a situation where I was around woman at work and they do in my experience seem almost to egg each other on in an adrenalin type of way. 

Maybe that's more younger woman, I don't know. I do know that some of my wife's friends are of this mentality and it's certainly had some effect on how she behaves, perceives herself in respect of the attentions of other men


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Throughout my 54 years of life on this planet, I have found that the old Spanish saying *"Tell Me Who Your Friends Are and I'll Tell You Who You Are"* is so often spot on.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well that's interesting Cosmos because I was about to ask a few more woman to contribute to this thread and it does look like there is a basic difference with how the sexes manage this type of thing
> 
> Liike some of the guys above Ive often been in a situation where I was around woman at work and they do in my experience seem almost to egg each other on in an adrenalin type of way.
> 
> Maybe that's more younger woman, I don't know. I do know that some of my wife's friends are of this mentality and it's certainly had some effect on how she behaves, perceives herself in respect of the attentions of other men


:iagree:

And women in their 40s, too! We had one woman in our office who had married an older man and who had, she told us, during one particularly vigorous love making session, given him a heart attack that nearly killed him. 

After a while, she decided she needed to divorce him (she told me she felt guilty about the heart attack and the negative impact it had on his health, subsequently) and then admits that she went from "being a very good girl to being a very naughty girl indeed." (Her own words.)

She started to go to regular drunken party nights with female friends of a similar age where they all dressed up as school girls (Google ST Trinian films to see what I mean!) and she started sleeping around.

She was a very bad influence on some of the younger girls in the office and although I liked her as a person, I was quite pleased when she left to work elsewhere.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> OK, so let's look at this from a different perspective. Would a real, true friend encourage someone to wreck their marriage?
> 
> No. A real, true friend would not. But jealous, nasty people who really want to see your wife crash and burn (for whatever reason) they would encourage someone to wreck their marriage. Just a thought...


I exposed my best friend's affair to his BW. They R'd and he was thankful to me for setting him on the right path and he's still my best friend today. At the time though, my wife was getting on me about why I was interfering in his life. I said, "He's my friend. I can't let him do this"

To the best of my knowledge, it looks like my fWW didn't have any toxic friend that encouraged her EA. In fact most were in disbelief, and saying that I should forgive and move on. Yeah, right. She never told anyone about her affair, not even her brother and sister and mother whom she's very close to. Probably because they would immediately tell her what she was doing was wrong. 

In my first marriage, my exwife had a toxic friend that both enabled as facilitated her affair.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I am sure some of my XW's friends encouraged this and provided alibis. But, in really looking at my XW, she always had this within her. She had been involved with married men in the past, while single.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Well that's interesting Cosmos because I was about to ask a few more woman to contribute to this thread and it does look like there is a basic difference with how the sexes manage this type of thing
> 
> Liike some of the guys above Ive often been in a situation where I was around woman at work and they do in my experience seem almost to egg each other on in an adrenalin type of way.
> 
> Maybe that's more younger woman, I don't know. I do know that some of my wife's friends are of this mentality and it's certainly had some effect on how she behaves, perceives herself in respect of the attentions of other men


I don't even know that it's an age thing, because it's something I've noticed all my life, and I'm now middle-aged.

All woman aren't like this, of course, but I have found a tendency amongst some to almost thrive on another's relationship problems. I've found this particularly amongst women who aren't in relationships themselves, and it's almost as though they get a kick out of seeing someone else about join their ranks. Maybe it's more prevalent amongst women, because we tend to talk to one another more about relationship problems...


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

A day before my ex moved out, I was desperate to save my marriage so I emailed a close female friend of hers asking if she could call me. Well, I waited and waited, and finally decided to call her work phone, which went to voice mail, so I left a message -- nothing specific, just asking if she could call me.

She finally responded to my original email stating that she was not going to act as a go between and telling me to seek counseling to try and work things out. WTF? I responded that '_In spite of what my ex has done, I still love her and want to stay married. She is obviously in a place where she's not thinking clearly -- not that she was thinking clearly while carrying on a two-year online and offline affair with her ex boyfriend (and having an affair with another.)'
_

Her response? *I'm not going to judge her.* A friend _*is*_ supposed to judge a friend on whether their actions are morally acceptable. This I-won't-judge-you-because-you're-my-friend culture is totally BS.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

In the process of using my VAR I recorded several conversations with my WW's friends. After dday I made it clear that she had to go NC with anyone including a few of her close friends who knew about the A. In my view if they knew and didn't tell me they were complicit and not a friend of the marriage. My WW actually agreed. It has taken a toll but also brought us closer b/c she pretty much has just me now. 

I harbor great disdain for all of them but I do realize they were being fed her lies about me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

"It has taken a toll but also brought us closer b/c she pretty much has just me now. "

Wow. Classic abuser behavior. Well done, Slater.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

lamaga said:


> "It has taken a toll but also brought us closer b/c she pretty much has just me now. "
> 
> Wow. Classic abuser behavior. Well done, Slater.


Ahh Not fair!

An abuser separates a victim from their friends family to purposely alienate them and destroy a healthy support system in order to better control them.

slater separated his wife from this support system because it was causing her and him harm and she wasn`t aware enough to see it.

An abuser seeks to keep their victim without friends/family/support system.

I don`t think slater would have a problem with his wife finding new and hopefully better friends

It may be classified as controlling (justified in this situation)behavior but I don`t think it`s comparable to abuse.


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## Biting Bullets (Jun 7, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> She never told anyone about her affair, not even her brother and sister and mother whom she's very close to. Probably because they would immediately tell her what she was doing was wrong.


Selective disclosure is all part of the WSs' PR campaign to convince themselves they're doing no wrong. 

While he was actively in his affair, my husband told only his best friend from high school what was going on-- a friend who'd been living with us for three months because he wanted to be sure his new job would be a good fit before getting his own place (gee, no commitment issues there). The guy's response? "Hey, whatever you need to do to be happy, man." Not, "What are you thinking getting ready to leave your pregnant wife and one year old?!" 

I've spent a lot of time being angry over this (especially since this "friend" was a groomsman at our wedding!), but in the end, we shouldn't have had to rely on anyone else to uphold our marriage vows. Lots of people suck, but my husband was the one who made a promise to me.


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## mackerel (May 22, 2012)

Friends are one of the top 3 factors in choosing a spouse. As is your spouse's family. I have seen so called "good girls" who had questionable friends and I let them know why would they ever hang out with these type of women. But I surely found out, that the girl was just a benign or holier version of the toxic friends. Basically a person is at least 50% of the person that they hang out with. 

Birds of a feather flock together. Toxic friends that are loose, and encourage friends to cheat need to be written a NC letter as well, If a WS has engaged in Infidelity.

Also, married people should have mostly married friends. Not a hard and fast rule, but being married should come with some boundaries.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

I s'pose much of this maybe defines for each of us individually what a close 'friend' really is.

For me, I need a friend to be honest with me when it really comes to the crunch, if I need to be told I'm being a twat about something then I know my closest friends will not shirk from that and I will hopefully, although maybe hurt, learn from it.

I certainly have told my own friends some unpleasant truths and they have actually thanked me for it.

Trouble is other types of friends do not do that they simply, just as in the Counts post below say "I will not judge her"

In my recent marriage collapse I have asked some of my wife's closest friends one simple question

"If you heard all these things about somebody and they were not a close friend of yours what would you think of them?"

The silence has been deafening!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> A day before my ex moved out, I was desperate to save my marriage so I emailed a close female friend of hers asking if she could call me. Well, I waited and waited, and finally decided to call her work phone, which went to voice mail, so I left a message -- nothing specific, just asking if she could call me.
> 
> She finally responded to my original email stating that she was not going to act as a go between and telling me to seek counseling to try and work things out. WTF? I responded that '_In spite of what my ex has done, I still love her and want to stay married. She is obviously in a place where she's not thinking clearly -- not that she was thinking clearly while carrying on a two-year online and offline affair with her ex boyfriend (and having an affair with another.)'
> _
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I told a good friend what I had done when my EA lurched toward a PA.

She said: "Oh, my God! You idiot! What were you THINKING?! You must tell your wife- NOW!"

So I did. My friend could have said: "Go for it!" But she didn't. She helped me save my marriage.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

lamaga said:


> "It has taken a toll but also brought us closer b/c she pretty much has just me now. "
> 
> Wow. Classic abuser behavior. Well done, Slater.


You are joking, right?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

slater said:


> In the process of using my VAR I recorded several conversations with my WW's friends. After dday I made it clear that she had to go NC with anyone including a few of her close friends who knew about the A. In my view if they knew and didn't tell me they were complicit and not a friend of the marriage. My WW actually agreed. It has taken a toll but also brought us closer b/c she pretty much has just me now.
> 
> I harbor great disdain for all of them but I do realize they were being fed her lies about me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well done! Those toxic friends who enabled the affair are not friends of the marriage and should be dropped. That's how you protect your marriage. She can always make friends with the kind of people that won't support cheating. :smthumbup:

If my fWW had toxic friends that enabled her affair, I'd have her drop them as a condition for R. But then, that would make my behavior abusive, no?


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

I cannot begin to fathom how a BS, already abused by his cheater and her friends, could be considered abusive in ejecting these a-holes from his life and that of his cheater.
Every website I visited advises that these are not friends of the marriage and have to go.
As was pointed out, a true abuser may isolate her/his victim, but this situation is totally different.


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

My H could have never has his A if it weren't for the help and encouragement of his toxic friend. Yeah people really suck and of course once the A was exposed, I gave him about 2 seconds to cut the toxic friend out of his life as well. He did. Never sent a NC letter to the friend, oh but I gave him an earful plus a few threats....we haven't seen or heard from him in years now.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> A day before my ex moved out, I was desperate to save my marriage so I emailed a close female friend of hers asking if she could call me. Well, I waited and waited, and finally decided to call her work phone, which went to voice mail, so I left a message -- nothing specific, just asking if she could call me.
> 
> She finally responded to my original email stating that she was not going to act as a go between and telling me to seek counseling to try and work things out. WTF? I responded that '_In spite of what my ex has done, I still love her and want to stay married. She is obviously in a place where she's not thinking clearly -- not that she was thinking clearly while carrying on a two-year online and offline affair with her ex boyfriend (and having an affair with another.)'
> _
> ...


Interesting and thank you for sharing. Sometimes that sort of thing happens between male friends as well.

My WS has a friend who was helping him at our home doing some home repair. When my WS went to the garage to get more material, the friend took me aside and asked me if we were having marital problems. I said not that I'm aware of, and he responded that my WS was an "a-hole".

At this particular time, my WS had just come home from an out-of-town "vacation" trip, which I was suspicious about. He had a work friend who lived in that State he was visiting, but I suspected more happened during that trip, as I found out later he had an EA with a woman who lived in that State.

The following weekend, again this friend was over, and my WS (who must have forgotten I was home) was discussing some other woman's problems with his "friend". The OW "had a controlling husband", "didn't drive", and showed a picture to his friend. I heard the whole encounter and documented what I heard on an email to my WS, indicating what I know I heard.

Anyway, after getting copies of WS cell phone calls, I starting checking phone numbers, one of which was this friend's cell number. So, I called him, told him I was checking on phone numbers. He was pleasant and understanding, but when I questioned him about his recollection of the discussion I overheard he hedged, claiming he didn't want to get involved.

My "gut" tells me that this friend knows more than I overheard and will protect my WS. I intend (if I have to) to call him as a witness in my D and/or at the very least get s sworn statement out of him.

So you see, on the one hand, the friend knows that my WS was wrong in his actions, even calling him a name. On the other hand, he doesn't want to get involved or put in the middle. Loyalty seems to work both ways.


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## slater (Feb 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Interesting and thank you for sharing. Sometimes that sort of thing happens between male friends as well.


Oh- totally happens b/w male friends. I travel with buddies to race sailboats, and they almost judge you negatively if you don't "close the deal" with a chick from the bar. Not me- never did, and now I have a new understanding/ perspective. I will not take part in the attitude at all.


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