# Still Down



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't know if I'm whining, venting, or looking for advice. But...

I had posted here 10 or so years ago, asking for typical "sexless marriage" advice, and generally flogging myself for being a low-self-esteem doormat.

At that time, I began making exit plans. I had all the information I needed, had found an apartment, and was ready to go. In the end, I did not. Financially it would have been hard, as W wasn't working then. My children were 3,5,5, and 13 at the time. I decided that I would stay for them. I tucked my head down, and dove into being the best parent for them I could. I shifted my full time work schedule such that I could be the primary parent after school, and on weekends. Took care of house duties, cleaning (where I could - W is a borderline hoarder), cooking, child activities, appointments, soccer-dad, gymnastics-dad, plus all the normal yard maintenance "guys" are supposed to do. I can't say I was happy, but I was too busy to notice. My wife also worked, took care of laundry, shopping, and handled the bills. (Duty) sex maybe 3-4 times a year, no shared interests, or activities. It is your stereotypical Roomate/co-parent situation.

My oldest is now 22, and living on their own. The twins are 15, and youngest is now 13. As they have required less time, I have again noticed my unhappiness.

In April, we were due for a new car. I wanted to get ahead of the game, and have an idea of what to look for. I looked at our finances for the first time in a LONG time. I discovered my wife had run up over $50k in credit card debt. My name is on $38k over 4 cards (2 joint, 2 in my name only). The remainder is on cards in her name only - I've found 10 so far, but I think there are a few I've missed so I say "over" 50k. I haven't used a credit card myself in over 10 years. I've operated cash-only on a small amount I would take from each paycheck (~$100/week for gas/incidentals). Technically she wasn't hiding it. All CC payments were made from a joint bank account. So while I couldn't see the CC statements, if I had looked I could have seen the payments. I've spent the past few months reverse-engineering what I know of our financial position from our bank statements. W is evasive when I try to bring up finances with her.

So that's were I am. I just turned 50. Sexless marriage ("It's not you, it's me" when confronted). Roommate marriage, Soul-crushing CC debt, resulting trashed credit rating. I'm lonely, frustrated, resentful, and feel completely financially trapped. Still with some conflict-avoidance issues. Though I have been working on those...which of course increases the tension I feel at home.


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## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

well if it makes you feel any better i'm in the same boat

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Knowing this board, I have no doubt you received responses suggesting various books to read and that you should get counseling. So I'm wondering why you didn't get counseling or read the books. If you did, it really doesn't look like it. I can certainly understand leaving would have been too difficult, but leaving wasn't your only option. What most people don't realize when they come to boards like this one with their complaints or looking for advice is that the answers lie within themselves and they, themselves, have to do any changing they want to take place. You can't change your situation if you're not willing to change yourself. You didn't change yourself and so your situation not only didn't change but it got worse. You discovered your wife has buried you in debt, but you're too afraid to confront her about it. From 10 years ago, counseling and many books could have helped you over your conflict-avoidance issues, and she would never have done this. But she knows you well and since you haven't changed yourself, she knew she could do whatever she wanted, and so she did.

I'd be awfully curious to know what she did with the money. Maybe just kid and household stuff, but I would want to know there isn't someone else she put me in debt for. So, call the card companies for detailed summaries and activities over the years, or at least as far back as their records maintain.

That's all the advice I have that could be useful to you. The only thing now is for me to ask what are you willing to do to bring about change your life and marriage? If you're not willing to do anything, that's fine. I know the prospect can seem daunting and too hard to tackle, so I get it if you're still not willing to do anything. But there's no point in offering suggestions or advice to a person who isn't willing to try. 

So is there anything that you want? And is there anything you're willing to do to make it happen?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I feel your pain. I stayed with my husband for 14 years after finding out he was seeking out men for sex. He had sworn he was just "curious" and for various reasons I stayed. But about 9 months ago I decided I'd had enough. We had been essentially sexless for about 6 years and completely sexless for 2 years. There's much more to the story that I won't bore you with here. 

When I finally left I learned that he had hid thousands of dollars of debt from me. I owe thousands on my credit cards and he owes thousands on his. We can show nothing for this debt except some vacation pictures over the years. Everything else was just "stuff" that we probably never even needed. I suspect its the same for your wife's spending. If she's a hoarder, it's was spent on all the crap cluttering up your home. I'd start selling off whatever you can to get some of that money back. Send that money straight to the credit cards.

I have separated our money at this point and I'm just waiting for our mediation appointment before I start paying back my half in earnest. If I start doing it now, he'll reap the benefits of that as it will just make our "joint" debt lower and not the part that I'm responsible for so I'm waiting. Once we have that settled, I will send every last dime I can to get out of debt in the next 2 years. 

I will never again have a joint account with someone. I will never again let them do all the bills alone. I'm learning very quickly that I am WAY better at budgeting and bill paying then he ever was...he was good at hiding how bad he was at it though. We'd charge something, new fridge for example, to get the rewards but then when the bill came he couldn't make himself write out that big of a check so he'd carry the balance. Nope, not how I plan to do things, ever. 

Does your wife work now? If not, it's time she get a job to start paying off this debt. I'd see a lawyer now and learn your rights and what you can expect if you divorce. I'd say it's LONG past time you get your life back. We only have one life to live so we should do whatever we can to make sure it's not a miserable one. If you aren't in therapy I think you should start.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm not sure how legal it is, but you can pull her credit report from the government free credit report site. I'm not going to post the link since you shouldn't trust a link given by an internet rando. Lookup the official site and you can easily pull the credit report for both of you. Pull yours first so you can see what questions it will ask. She may have opened up cards in your name as well. Put a credit block on your account so she can't open any cards in your name. You can also put blocks on her credit account so that she can't open up anymore cards. 

Take the advice to heart--there's no point in trying to fix the sex after all this time. I suppose you can force the issue and get some sort of duty sex, but there's probably no chance of creating true passion or desire from her. Even if she gives you sex, you'll know in your heart that she doesn't care about it or desire you.

At 50, this is a great time for you to start over. It only gets harder the older you get. Of course divorce is hard on kids, but you don't have to sacrifice all your happiness to keep the family together. The kids will learn to manage. I think they can find happiness in two homes and you would likely be much happier.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

wilson said:


> At 50, this is a great time for you to start over. It only gets harder the older you get. Of course divorce is hard on kids, but you don't have to sacrifice all your happiness to keep the family together. The kids will learn to manage. I think they can find happiness in two homes and you would likely be much happier.


I 100% agree with this!!! I left my husband when I was 50. It was scary as **** thinking about being on my own. I'm SO much happier now. And I've met a guy who was dealing with a lot of the same stuff as you...no sex, hoarding, excessive spending, etc. We are having a blast together. There are women out there looking for a good guy who likes sex and wants someone to share his life with and aren't looking for a guy who will drop tons of cash on them. We do exist, I promise.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

@DownButNotOut

At 53 I just got out of a similar financial situation, though I didn't have the kids to consider.

First, know that everything WILL work out, one way or another. You won't end up homeless or in jail.

Some of this credit card debt is on cards that are in your name only. Do you have the ability to transfer that to cards in her name? (I imagine they're full...) In the event of divorce, you probably owe half the debt regardless. But now is the time to stop the bleeding.

I would freeze all cards that are in your name. You can go online and do it. The joint cards will depend who the primary card holder is, if it's you, you can have her name removed and the card frozen or closed.

You probably need to talk to an attorney ASAP to learn the best way to handle this. And maybe a credit specialist. In my case we had about $55K of debt that he ran up -- same thing, I didn't check the accounts and he was evasive when I asked him. If the payments are too much for you even once the credit is frozen, a credit specialist may be able to help you negotiate a settlement with the bank. That will hurt your credit though. 

I'd get into a new home ASAP because to rent or buy they will run a credit report.

THE GOOD NEWS
You are down BUT NOT OUT. 50 actually IS a great time to start over. My dad started over at 50 with basically nothing in his pocket, today he's in a VERY stable financial situation. All kinds of people on here and people I know IRL have done the same. 50 doesn't even seem old at all anymore.

I just got divorced at 53 and YES there are single people out there looking for love -- they know a lot more about what they want and how to behave in a relationship than they did at 20. I have less money than ever digging myself out of his debt, but I'm the happiest I've been since I was a care free teenager.

A mentally stable 50 year old man who doesn't use credit cards and is responsible and loves his children and does a lot to help out? Trust me, you will be a HOT commodity.

I'm in the best relationship of my life ever right now.  (I knew how to pick better and conduct myself better by this point.) Also -- I'm having more great sex than ever, and I'd convinced myself I didn't even really like sex by the time I got divorced. ;-)

My marriage was ruining me financially. Beyond that, it was one of those situations like yours where day to day everything was "ok" but overall, I was sad, frustrated, and unfulfilled. The divorce was HARD and SAD, but my only regret is getting married in the first place and staying as long as I did.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

What you describe financially is not uncommon. From the beginning, my ex-husband handled our finances. I'll never know exactly how much money was funneled elsewhere over time but it's my fault for not being more involved. Now I'm divorced and there's great peace of mind knowing that only I make the decisions about my money. 

Letting someone else have control over your money is asking for trouble.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

See an attorney. Put a rejoinder on her, not allowing her to create more debt.

Cancel all cards, consolidate those you are responsible for -or- go for broke and go bankrupt. 
With teenagers at home you should not do that to them (bankruptcy).

My only questions are:

a) Why did she run up the debt?

b) What did she spend the money on? Mostly, the children?

Was it for worthwhile things, things she felt were needed and you would not approve of?
Life is expensive, children will bankrupt ya!


KB-


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> I 100% agree with this!!! I left my husband when I was 50. It was scary as **** thinking about being on my own. I'm SO much happier now. And I've met a guy who was dealing with a lot of the same stuff as you...no sex, hoarding, excessive spending, etc. We are having a blast together. There are women out there looking for a good guy who likes sex and wants someone to share his life with and aren't looking for a guy who will drop tons of cash on them. We do exist, I promise.


ABSOLUTELY! My guy doesn't make a ton but he's 100% financially stable, no debt and we have MORE FUN doing inexpensive things than I've ever had in my adult life. Going to the river. Sex. Taking a walk or serious hiking. Sex. Watching a movie on TV. Sex. Making dinner together. Sex. Grabbing an inexpensive breakfast or lunch. Sex. Sitting around the campfire with friends chatting. Sex (after they leave, of course).

I could be bitter over all the spilt milk in my life, but I'm too damned happy living my inexpensive, downsized, stable, fun, secure life with my sweetheart.

BTW NotMyJamie - it's great to hear you've found someone to have a blast with. WELL DESERVED.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

WorkingWife said:


> ABSOLUTELY! My guy doesn't make a ton but he's 100% financially stable, no debt and we have MORE FUN doing inexpensive things than I've ever had in my adult life. Going to the river. Sex. Taking a walk or serious hiking. Sex. Watching a movie on TV. Sex. Making dinner together. Sex. Grabbing an inexpensive breakfast or lunch. Sex. Sitting around the campfire with friends chatting. Sex (after they leave, of course).
> 
> I could be bitter over all the spilt milk in my life, but I'm too damned happy living my inexpensive, downsized, stable, fun, secure life with my sweetheart.
> 
> BTW NotMyJamie - it's great to hear you've found someone to have a blast with. WELL DESERVED.


I don't want to be bitter either... and I am not really. Sometime I think about all the wasted years, but...

You know, sometimes I am amazed with how happy life is, esp with Fiancé. For me, I think as corny as it sounds, just being really loved is such a huge thing... I never knew.

It scares me to get too used to it, I know that is crazy. But I have never really had this I don't think. She is decorating, cleaning cooking, gardening, and all of it is for us, and she is loving it. She is retired as of this summer and she has some type of love/retirement energy that I have never seen. 

Sometimes I don't know how to feel. I always wanted love, I know that now, but it makes me feel funny, it is hard to explain... I always took care of everyone, I did the cooking, and still worked and fixed everything, some of this is unsettling for me...

You know, I don't have a ton of money but Fiancé and I live well. But it is defiantly not all about money. 

First off, I have never had much money to start off with so it is not a big deal to me. I always had enough to make it. I raised 3 kids and 1 Wife until I divorced her... 

But now, with the two of us together, her and me together, it is a lot overall... 

I really don't know what I am trying to say, so I am stopping now...


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

WorkingWife said:


> I could be bitter over all the spilt milk in my life, but I'm too damned happy living my inexpensive, downsized, stable, fun, secure life with my sweetheart.
> 
> BTW NotMyJamie - it's great to hear you've found someone to have a blast with. WELL DESERVED.


Thanks. I feel a little weird that my divorce isn't final yet and I'm already dating someone but I spent 14 years (well, really 25 but I only knew it the last 14) with a husband who didn't want me so I finally said 'screw it" and went for it. And we are much like you and your guy...choosing inexpensive things to do together. It's amazing to me how much fun just cooking a dinner together and watching a funny movie afterwards can be and how it makes your whole day. It's just so nice to know that someone WANTS to spend time with me. We talk about SO much and I love it. We both have children to support and debt from our exes to pay off so we find inexpensive stuff to do together...and I'm finding that those things usually make it easier to talk and really enjoy each other's company more. And I won't lie...having someone I really like who really likes me to snuggle up with to watch a movie is heavenly.

I, too, don't want to be bitter. I just want to move on and be happy and so far so good :smile2:
@DownButNotOut this could be you too...if you just put yourself first for a change!!!!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So WHERE THE HELL DID THE MONEY GO?? Look around, do you SEE anything that she could have possible added up to over $50K? Does she have some kind of shopping or gambling addiction? Has she been having an affair? You should have gotten out back ten years ago, I find it unlikely that your current financial situation is better that whatever you were dealing with then. Close out all the cards, ASAP, if you have not done so already. 

You are unhappy and this is no way for a decent man to live. Stop throwing yourself on the sword and divorce the selfish shrew already!


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm lovin' the Happy Stories!! Brings tears to my eyes--great example to OP. I've been afraid to try again to find someone who really loved me, but admire y'all, even in my old age.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Thank you for sharing the positive stories. I've followed a number of people since I started lurking here again. 

A few more bits. I'm 99% sure there is no affair. At least her phone, facebook, etc. are all clean. I believe much of the credit cards are a shopping problem with clothes, both for herself and the kids. And vacation costs that I believed were being paid with cash. Many of her individual cards are those awful retail cards to individual shops. Her hoarding is primarily clothing, and periodicals - newspapers, magazines.

I do plan on contacting a lawyer soon. I wanted to have as much information as possible before hand to not waste either of our times.

The things keeping me back are, to be honest, fear.

Fear of change
Fear of alienating my kids
Fear of being "the bad guy" (stupid I know! )
Fear of leaving her unable to support herself

Financially I am in much better shape now than 10 years ago, even with this debt. I had come into an inheritance that allowed me to own our house outright - no mortgage. I still have a small inheritance nest egg that has never been a part of marital property. Hopefully enough to take care of legal fees, about half of my share of debt, and moving expenses. The youngest being 13 really changes child support equations. And now, her income is 35-40% of mine which is much better than a decade ago. The house equity plus her retirement savings is very close in value to my retirement savings.

Support-system wise, I'm in worse shape. I no longer have any living relatives. Living like I have been has caused me to isolate myself from others. A few years ago I started participating in local community theater, so have a number of aquaintances, but no close friends to lean on.

I feel caught in a catch-22 with money though. I feel like I have to move out to fix it, but can't have good enough credit to move out until I fix it. I could blast some of that nest egg at the cards now to improve credit rating. But the consequences of that are something I think I need to run by a lawyer first.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

DownButNotOut said:


> Living like I have been has caused me to isolate myself from others.


That's one of the dangers of continuing to live in this environment. It's toxic. It's like living in a radioactive environment. The longer you are in it, the worse you feel and the sicker you get. You have less confidence to pull yourself out of it. The negative feelings can become comforting since they are so predicable. You may feel you don't deserve to be happy. It becomes a re-enforcing downward spiral and it's harder to pull yourself out.

If you look at your emails or social media from 10 years ago, do you seem happier and more hopeful? Do you recognize that guy as being you? In 10 more years, how will you look back at today? Will you be farther down the spiral and wishing you could get back to today? Or will you be happy and enjoying life and glad you pulled yourself out?

I'm sure you're concerned about your kids, but keep in mind that they are looking at you for examples of how they should live their life. If they were in your situation, would you want them to slog along feeling this way or would you want them to do what is necessary to be happy? If you divorce, you're probably giving them a positive message to end a relationship if it can't be fixed.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

That is so awesome. It is so nice to be loved - as you are. And bizarre, I know the feeling. It is scary too -- at this age the fear is more about someone dying, I have no fears re cheating or leaving with this guy -- but one thing I believe now, is that even if something happened to this guy, even if I'm 70 or 80 at the time, IF I wanted love back in my life I could find someone. I just have much better skills for it now. A widow friend of my parents who would be 87 now, just suddenly met and fell in love with a woman his age a year ago. He was giddy and asking "Is this silly? At my age?" I said "Heck no." They are just SO HAPPY to have each other.

I've always been an optimist, and I'm so happily divorced that maybe I am biased, but for the OP it's important that he knows there is life after divorce at any age, if you want it. Even if his current wife has dug a deep debt hole for him and even if his assets and income are reduced by divorce. If he's really unhappy, he should just GET. OUT. The first year or two will be rough for sure, divorce is painful. But so is letting your life pass by without any joy.



BluesPower said:


> I don't want to be bitter either... and I am not really. Sometime I think about all the wasted years, but...
> 
> You know, sometimes I am amazed with how happy life is, esp with Fiancé. For me, I think as corny as it sounds, just being really loved is such a huge thing... I never knew.
> 
> ...


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> Thank you for sharing the positive stories. I've followed a number of people since I started lurking here again.
> 
> 
> The things keeping me back are, to be honest, fear.
> ...


I had all those same fears. I think everyone contemplating divorce does. I was mostly worried about my children and money. Well, my children are doing great. They even know I'm dating and have met him at their request. They are just happy that I'm finally happy.

As for the debt, I have found that now that I'm in control of my half of it I feel much better about it. I have already made out a budget and have a good plan in place to reduce the debt as much as possible. I'm hoping to be credit card debt free in under 2 years. I don't live extravagantly and I don't care...knowing I'm in control of my own money makes it worth it to me. 

It's not stupid to not want to be the bad guy. If you try to do things as amicably as possible hopefully there won't be a bad guy. 

Talk to a lawyer to learn what will happen financially if you divorce. It might help allay your fears considerably.

Good luck!!


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> Thanks. I feel a little weird that my divorce isn't final yet and I'm already dating someone but I spent 14 years (well, really 25 but I only knew it the last 14) with a husband who didn't want me so I finally said 'screw it" and went for it.


Same here. I'm divorced now, but I met my guy early in the divorce process. Honestly, it felt tacky to me to be dating while I was still disentangling from my marriage, but like you, I'd been unhappy so long. I was done putting my happiness on hold. In YOUR case, Hasn't your ex been dating for years? So, too bad.



notmyjamie said:


> And we are much like you and your guy...choosing inexpensive things to do together. It's amazing to me how much fun just cooking a dinner together and watching a funny movie afterwards can be and how it makes your whole day. It's just so nice to know that someone WANTS to spend time with me. We talk about SO much and I love it. We both have children to support and debt from our exes to pay off so we find inexpensive stuff to do together...and I'm finding that those things usually make it easier to talk and really enjoy each other's company more. And I won't lie...having someone I really like who really likes me to snuggle up with to watch a movie is heavenly.
> 
> I, too, don't want to be bitter. I just want to move on and be happy and so far so good :smile2:
> 
> @DownButNotOut this could be you too...if you just put yourself first for a change!!!!


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

WorkingWife said:


> Same here. I'm divorced now, but I met my guy early in the divorce process. Honestly, it felt tacky to me to be dating while I was still disentangling from my marriage, but like you, I'd been unhappy so long. I was done putting my happiness on hold. In YOUR case, Hasn't your ex been dating for years? So, too bad.


I know he was online looking to hook up with strangers when I caught him 14 years ago. Since then I have no idea and I don't really care. He never wanted me as a husband should want a wife. It feels SO good to know that this new man actually wants to be with me. I have no idea if it will last but for now I'm just enjoying the time we have together. He's a nice, generous, fun, funny and all around good guy. I'm sure there are flaws...I just hope they are the kind I can live with and still be happy.

And I was honest with my STBX. He is aware I am dating someone. He hasn't indicated that he cares at all about it.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

So she wasn't only racking up thousands in cc debt, but not making the payments either? Are you sure your credit rating is trashed?

If possible, what I would do is find out exactly how much is owed on credit cards, take out a consolidation loan to pay them all out, then destroy them and close the accounts. Put a block on your and your wife's credit so that she cannot take out any more cards or loans and then start selling off the junk cluttering up your house. If you have to sell her car do that too. Put all the money towards paying off the loan.

May sound harsh, but your wife did this to herself, she chose the action and every action has a reaction.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

No, she always made sure to make the minimum payment. I would have noticed late notices, I think. My credit is trashed because the utilization is 98% (effectively maxed). I started using a credit monitoring company when I first found the debt. I have my current credit rating at basically all times now. I can say it is well below what banks want to see for conventional loans.

I have requests for appointments out to several local family law firms to get the legal opinion on the situation, and hopefully retain counsel for possible divorce. Unfortunately I have travel for the next 2 weeks that can't be cancelled.

I know exactly how much is in my name from the credit monitoring (~38K). I don't know how much is in her name only, but it is at least ~18K. Getting her exact numbers is difficult, due to her evasion. I have the best info I can get from digging in the trash for discarded statements that I hadn't seen (she gets home before me, so has first access to the mail).

I did confront her when I found it all. But I didn't demand to take over the bills. She, of course, said she would do better. Since then, I've tracked spending much more closely. She is still using cards, and I confronted again telling her she had to stop all use of those cards. Today I found 2 new retail cards opened this month in her name only. Now I'm done. She can drown in her debt if that is what she wants. I'm not going down with her.

I don't want to fight these things out in front of the kids. Here is a good question: How do you find time for fights like this around 3 teenagers? One or the other always seems to be around during waking hours.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

DownButNotOut;19933945
I don't want to fight these things out in front of the kids. Here is a good question: How do you find time for fights like this around 3 teenagers? One or the other always seems to be around during waking hours.[/QUOTE said:


> Is there any point in fighting about it? If you are done, file for divorce so debt is frozen and anything new she racks up, she is solely responsible for. I think even if he cards are in her name only, they are a "marital" liability since she took them out during the marriage.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

DownButNotOut said:


> No, she always made sure to make the minimum payment. I would have noticed late notices, I think. My credit is trashed because the utilization is 98% (effectively maxed). I started using a credit monitoring company when I first found the debt. I have my current credit rating at basically all times now. I can say it is well below what banks want to see for conventional loans.


Sorry, but your wife is a complete piece of wet garbage for dragging you down into debt with her without your knowledge or permission. If my husband did that to me, his life would become the 7th Circle of Hell - every single day - until I found a way to pay it of off. I supposed one quick way to do that is with a life insurance check. :grin2:

But I digress.

The good news here is that a SPINE doesn't cost a dime, OP. I suggest you start rooting around and digging deep until you find yours and start using it - pronto. All I've read are silly, insipid excuses for why you're in the mess you're in, and they're all weak excuses for doing NOTHING. Come on, OP. Maybe there was a time you _*were*_ a victim, but you've been a *volunteer* for years. At least own your ****.

Keep doing what you're doing and you'll keep getting what you're getting. It ain't rocket science.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

You can get the statements from the cc companies. Set up online accounts and print out years of statements. File ASAP to get that part done and finances frozen-- any new debt will likely be hers alone-- sort out the details later.

In the divorce you can get all of the debt and balances disclosed and figure out who is paying what.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

So ... what things should I have ready for an initial consultation with a lawyer?


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## shortbus (Jul 25, 2017)

I'd see where you're at for getting your debt separated for the state you live in.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> So ... what things should I have ready for an initial consultation with a lawyer?


I'd ask about the debt, how much will you be responsible for? How to separate hers from yours keeping in mind she opened things in your name without your knowledge. Ask about alimony, child support, splitting assets, etc. 

Good luck!


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

@Taxman


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

DownButNotOut
You are the victim of financial infidelity. If, as you say, you have been operating on a cash basis for the long term, and your cards have been used by your spouse, then I would counsel you to have those balances transferred into her name only. Since I do not know your state or country of residence, I cannot speak in specifics. I am not an attorney, but from an emotional standpoint, I believe that you have little other alternative but to divorce. Get as much debt into her name as possible. Please, by all means, lawyer up, and rely heavily on the advice you will be given. In ideal circumstances, a divorce will move the debt into the responsible party's name and ensure that the spouse is not injured financially. This needs to happen. 

This is another form of infidelity. It is just as damaging as physical and emotional infidelity. This needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I got home Monday. I talked to a lawyer yesterday. The information wasn’t exactly good news. I have been married long enough that alimony is open ended. All of the debt is marital unless I could prove fraud or substance abuse/gambling caused the debt. Since it looks like stuff, vacations and such I’m on the hook even for the part in her name only. From what the lawyer said, with alimony, child support, and the share of debt I’d end up with I’m not sure I can afford to leave. So I’m crunching numbers looking for a scenario that would let me afford to do it. I have questions out to the lawyer on a few options.

So I’m feeling like I can’t afford to leave with this debt, and can’t deal with the debt while staying. It’s pretty depressing. I suppose plan B is autopilot until the kids are 18 and then go.

In the mean time D2 knows how close I am to leaving and is on a charm offensive. Which for her is a constant stream of “I love you” and blocking my way until I give her a hug. She won’t address or change the behavior I’m ready to leave over, just tries to paper over it with that.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Part of the problem with staying is that the debt won't necessarily stay the same. What's to stop her from getting more CC's and loans? In 5 years, will the situation be essentially the same but with 5 years more worth of debt to deal with?

Do most of the problems in the marriage stem from the lack of intimacy? If that's the biggest problem you have, it can be improved. You mentioned your own lack of self-esteem, which will be an issue in any other relationship you end up having. You can work on that, and there are ways that both of you can work on building a better marriage. If you generally like her and would like to be married to her, it might be worth trying to salvage what you have. But you'd have to take 100% control of the finances, be able to lock her credit, and do whatever is needed to pay off the debt and ensure that it can't happen again.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Yes, instead of batting her eyes and saying I love you, she needs to get a damn job and pay off the ridiculous debt she ran up. That would prove that she cares, that she is trying. It would be REAL effort. And just because she may be entitled to the open ended alimony doesnt mean your lawyer cant fight and get another arrangement made for you. Talk with a few more, dont take the word of just one attorney.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

DownButNotOut said:


> I got home Monday. I talked to a lawyer yesterday. The information wasn’t exactly good news. I have been married long enough that alimony is open ended. All of the debt is marital unless I could prove fraud or substance abuse/gambling caused the debt. Since it looks like stuff, vacations and such I’m on the hook even for the part in her name only. From what the lawyer said, with alimony, child support, and the share of debt I’d end up with I’m not sure I can afford to leave. So I’m crunching numbers looking for a scenario that would let me afford to do it. I have questions out to the lawyer on a few options.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you submit to playing this game by her rules, you will always be trapped and you will always lose.

Did you ever watch Star Trek? Ever hear of the Kobyashi Maru test?

The only way to win is to change the rules.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Not trying to thread jack but this is a good example of why putting your head down and staying in a bad relationship can really come back to bite you. OP, there is never going to be a good time, 10 years ago it was one thing now 10 years later when you thought it would be a better time it's another, even if you pay of the dept it will be another. Their is always pain in involved, but what you had by very definition is a sunk cost fallacy that has continued to run it's coarse.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> Yes, instead of batting her eyes and saying I love you, she needs to get a damn job and pay off the ridiculous debt she ran up. That would prove that she cares, that she is trying. It would be REAL effort. And just because she may be entitled to the open ended alimony doesnt mean your lawyer cant fight and get another arrangement made for you. Talk with a few more, dont take the word of just one attorney.


Hell yeah if she is not working then OP you are acting in a fatherly role to her which is death on a marriage. Your kids are grown time for her to adult too.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Does your wife work? What is her income compared to yours? Why does the attorney anticipate so much alimony? My state sure works differently than yours.

Doesn't seem like there would be that many years of child support, your kids are luckily teenagers now.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

are the lawyers saying that even if she opens up a card and accelerates debt its in both your name in resolving? how are you suppose to control that.

does she know you have one foot out the door? 

BBTW you can lock down your credit account so that any open new card has to be approved by you first, we have that with transunion.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Lostinthought61 said:


> if you wait it out for the kids, in that time will you be able to bring down the debt, in other words can you cancel all credit cards in both your names so that any credit cards she opens will only be in her name?


I don't think it matters whose name is on the debt. Marital debt is shared debt. Anyone in the audience know how to ensure certain debts are assigned to a certain spouse if they end up divorcing? Perhaps a post-nup could be created which said that in a divorce, debt would be split based on whose name is on it (his, hers or both).


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

wilson said:


> I don't think it matters whose name is on the debt. Marital debt is shared debt. Anyone in the audience know how to ensure certain debts are assigned to a certain spouse if they end up divorcing? Perhaps a post-nup could be created which said that in a divorce, debt would be split based on whose name is on it (his, hers or both).




In Canada, you can get a separation agreement that disentangles you financially and protects your assets from each other without being divorced.

Is there such a thing there?


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> Does your wife work? What is her income compared to yours? Why does the attorney anticipate so much alimony? My state sure works differently than yours.
> 
> Doesn't seem like there would be that many years of child support, your kids are luckily teenagers now.


Yes, she works. She makes about half what I do.

The lawyer was basing her statement off of that, and the length of marriage ( 27 years). Generally alimony is granted over 20 years, and it is generally until retirement or for life for marriages as long as mine.

I've been looking at different possibilities tonight, and am a bit more upbeat than my last post. What I started with was a worst case scenario that left me under water with the local real estate and rental prices.

I'm waiting to hear from my lawyer on a few options before a final decision now.

I feel very guilty over the whole thing right now. What I'm doing feels very selfish.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Marduk said:


> In Canada, you can get a separation agreement that disentangles you financially and protects your assets from each other without being divorced.
> 
> Is there such a thing there?


As soon as a divorce decree is filed, all marital assets are frozen. At that point, most new debt would be on the person who does it.

What I'm struggling with is that before that, if I dealt with any of the credit cards, nothing stops her from just opening a new card and running that up. If she can argue that the marriage benefits from what is bought then I'm still on the hook for it.

If I wait until after a divorce is done, finding living arrangements or securing a new home loan for my own place is hard because of what her credit use has done to my credit rating.

The main ways I have to reduce the debt right now are a home equity loan to consolidate the debt, take a loan against my 401k, or eat taxes and penalties to withdraw from 401k. Both are a part of asset division though. If I did it now, she could charge it up again. If I wait, I don't know how the division of assets is going to go so can't guarantee they are options in the end.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I’m pretty sure as soon as you separate, assets are frozen at that point, so if she were to run up any new credit card debt, that would be all hers. I would suggest at this point that you take no action toward paying them off, wait and see how the separation of assets and debt is going to play out. 




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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> I’m pretty sure as soon as you separate, assets are frozen at that point, so if she were to run up any new credit card debt, that would be all hers. I would suggest at this point that you take no action toward paying them off, wait and see how the separation of assets and debt is going to play out.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Check with your lawyer, but I'm pretty sure this^^^ is correct,
You should also ask your lawyer about bankruptcy.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Check with your lawyer, but I'm pretty sure this^^^ is correct,
> You should also ask your lawyer about bankruptcy.


Yes. That is what my lawyer said.

Bankruptcy actually isn't really possible. Even with the debt, assets are well above debts. My house has no mortgage on it.

Right now, I'm in a bit of a holding pattern. I want to tell the lawyer to proceed, but feel frozen on how to break it to D2. Tell her in advance, or have the papers ready to file first. I don't expect her to be difficult to deal with, I just expect her to be hurt. Her current charm offensive is because she knows I am thinking about leaving. We've done that before though, and I know it will fade in a month or so. Even then, her charm doesn't actually go as far as quality time, date-things, or sex. Just lots of "I love you" and forced hugs. *sigh*

edit: also, even though the debt is high, my income is able to keep up with at least minimum payments.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

My suggestion would be not to tell her in advance...have everything ready to go first. 


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I spent the weekend filled with anxiety. 

I took the time to declutter my personal things from the house, and take inventory. In the end, I could fit what is mine / important to me in just a few boxes.

1 box of mementos, pictures, yearbooks, etc.
1 box of books
2 boxes of misc. (mostly fishing gear)
1/2 closet of clothes.

2 guitars
2 amps
1 kayak.

I could fit my entire life into my car. It's crazy, and a little depressing to look at the amount of stuff in the house, and realize my footprint is so small in it.

I'm still waffling on what to do. She is very good at pushing my KISA buttons.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

The good thing is in another 5 to 7 years you'll loose your libido so living in a sexless marriage won't be so bad.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Marc878 said:


> The good thing is in another 5 to 7 years you'll loose your libido so living in a sexless marriage won't be so bad.


Not helpful. And not reality.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

IF you are feeling so bad, instead of dropping the bomb on her, sit her down, talk with her and explain your actions BEFORE you pull the trigger. Just don't let her BS you or *****-bomb you either.

Tell her about the secretive spending, the sexless life you've lead and how you were able to deal because you were so busy with the kids, and now you want to enjoy your own life.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Not helpful. And not reality.


Unless he makes a move which until now he hasn't been able to it is exactly his reality.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

The kids can figure things out for themselves. Has bankruptcy been proposed? If not, consider it, along with a D lawyer.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

DownButNotOut said:


> I'm still waffling on what to do. She is very good at pushing my KISA buttons.


Well...are you enjoying your life as it currently is? Have you BEEN enjoying it for the past howmanyyears?? If you change nothing, nothing changes.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Marc878 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Not helpful. And not reality.
> ...


No, it's really not. You commented that in 5 to 7 years he'll lose his libido, anyway. That's what I'm saying is not necessarily reality. Men into their 60s and 70s and when beyond can and do have a libido and can and do enjoy a full sex life.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

3Xnocharm said:


> Well...are you enjoying your life as it currently is? Have you BEEN enjoying it for the past howmanyyears?? If you change nothing, nothing changes.


I hear what you’re saying. I know I’m whining. I’m operating from a place of weakness, codependence, victim hood, beta. Call it what you will. It is a pattern over 20 years in the making. Breaking out of it isn’t easy but I’m trying. Yes, I’ve read NMMNG and am trying to change.

I have talked to a lawyer. She did not fill me with hope for a good divorce outcome. I have gathered records. I have crunched numbers until my eyes cross. I *think* I see settlements I can live with if I have the current full financial picture.

I don’t love her. I don’t really like her that much. But I still get the urge to rescue, or solve her problems. I still feel horrible for the hurt D would cause her. So I hesitate.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Consult with other attorneys, that way you get several opinions and you can hire one who you feel has your best interests in mind.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jlg07 said:


> IF you are feeling so bad, instead of dropping the bomb on her, sit her down, talk with her and explain your actions BEFORE you pull the trigger. Just don't let her BS you or *****-bomb you either.
> 
> Tell her about the secretive spending, the sexless life you've lead and how you were able to deal because you were so busy with the kids, and now you want to enjoy your own life.


Disagree.

They're no longer in any kind of partnership, financial or otherwise. Financially, she's his biggest threat.

And she needs to be treated accordingly. He needs to take any advantage he has with her, because she stopped playing by the rules a long time ago.

In this case, he likely has a first mover advantage.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Marduk said:


> Disagree.
> 
> They're no longer in any kind of partnership, financial or otherwise. Financially, she's his biggest threat.
> 
> ...


No arguments from me on this -- I think he should drop the bomb BUT he does have to live with himself also.
If he can't steel himself to do it, then a conversation may be the best way for him to do it -- AND hand her the papers at the same time.


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## shortbus (Jul 25, 2017)

What Marduk said.

There's absolutely no reason to stay in this any longer or prolong the inevitable.

File as soon as you can. This should freeze any new debt, or at least show it as her own.
Check with your lawyer, and I might add, I think you might want to talk to another, but since it's marital debt, it should be half hers to pay back, NOT ALL YOURS!

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T TAKE OUT A HOME LOAN OR START ON YOUR 401K


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I spent the week gathering together all of my financial information and setting up lawyer meetings. Wednesday night, D2 cornered me and in the discussion she point blank asked if I wanted divorce. I was honest, and said I was strongly considering it. It was one of the hardest things I've done with her. We talked late into the night and I laid out a lot of what I've been feeling, and neither of us slept much.

The past 2 days, she has been a complete mess. Thursday, she said she cancelled 3 of her cards. Two of those cards, I hadn't found yet. Today she handed over 3 more cards but hasn't cancelled them yet, one of which I hadn't found yet. All 6 were the $500 limit retail type cards. I started feeling like maybe she is truly remorseful.

Earlier tonight, I checked up on the pile of bills, like I've been doing since discovering the debt. And I found a bill for a card that she said she had cancelled a few weeks ago. At the time, she told me that she had opened it in the spring because she was worried her car was in need of work. But since she didn't need it she would cancel it. It turns out she used it to pay for expenses on our trip to see her parents at the first of this month. To the tune of almost $800. I also remember asking if we had the cash for the trip, she assured me we did then.

Earlier in the thread Taxman described financial infidelity as like physical infidelity. I discarded the comment at the time. Now I'm not so sure. Trying to deal with this feels horrible. I wish it was a physical affair, that would be more cut and dried.

In the mean time, the kids have picked up on her mood this week. They are upset with me at the moment. Wondering what did Dad do to upset Mom so badly.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow it sounds like she has a serious problem. Her lying about cancelling the one card proves that she has no intentions of taking you seriously and getting her spending habits under control. Make sure you cancel those cards she gave you. This is serious. I don’t feel that you should be responsible for paying any of those cards you didn’t know about in her name, should you divorce. Did you make a note of your initial confrontation about all this? Seems anything she spent after that she knowingly did behind your back. 


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I think you’re right. She has a serious problem with credit. It’s like if there is space on a card she can’t resist using it. It’s the same with space for stuff and free time. She has to fill it all up. I don’t know how to help her with it. I can’t stop it for her. She can always get access to new cards. I won’t spend the next X years as the money police, constantly looking for new cards.

Right now I’m just scrambling to try and protect my financial future. And I have serious feelings of failure for not finding this all sooner.

At the start of the year I might have been unhappy in a sexless, roommate marriage. But I consoled myself that at least it was financially strong. The shock of discovery completely knocked me out of that rut.

Next lawyer meeting is Thursday morning.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownButNotOut said:


> I think you’re right. She has a serious problem with credit.


I think it would be unwise to think like this, and it's kind of what you did before. Your wife has a serious problem of character, which means you can solve this problem with credit and it will probably move to some other issue. The dept is just a symptom of a much bigger problem. She is very selfish in her marriage, period. It's why you are in a sexless one and why she is willing to hide tens of thousands of dollars of dept from you. You need to get this, not just intellectually but emotionally and then proceed from there deciding how you want the rest of your life to go. 

All I know is marriage shouldn't and doesn't have to be like this.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I had a long meeting with my lawyer yesterday. It was a mixed bag. She did mention the idea of a post-nup if wanting to stay. Although how enforceable it would be hasn't really been tested in court here. Proceeding with divorce is risky. Alimony is still a wide-open unknown. Depending on how cooperative D2 is will be the difference between workable, and totally screwed financial shape.

Of course, I've been reading a lot of the horror stories here on TAM, so I'm a little freaked about what can go wrong at the moment.

We did talk about creative ways to handle separation. She was happy that I do have enough assets to have wiggle room for negotiation, and still deal with the debt. I thought she was going to slap me though when she heard about the house. See, I paid for it with inheritance and if I hadn't also added D2 to the title, it would NOT have been marital property since it was a direct cash purchase. I wish I would have realized that at the time!


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

DownButNotOut said:


> I had a long meeting with my lawyer yesterday. It was a mixed bag. She did mention the idea of a post-nup if wanting to stay.


Why on EARTH your lawyer would even _suggest_ you'd want to stay with the devil's sister is beyond me.

From everything I've read about her, she's nothing but a greedy, nasty, opportunistic, repulsive vampire. I hope you're able to rid yourself of this evil entity without losing every cent you own.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Why on EARTH your lawyer would even _suggest_ you'd want to stay with the devil's sister is beyond me.


That's a bit harsh. I don't think she is that evil. Self-centered, bad with money, happy with a roommate husband sure. But not evil. Not when I've read some of the stories told on here. :surprise:

My lawyer brought it up in the context of "if the rest of the marriage is ok, and money is the one issue this might be a way to protect yourself without divorcing" if D2 would go along with it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I’m sorry but not divorcing makes zero sense to me. I would suggest you consult a few more attorneys. 



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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Well. I'm still holding off at the moment. I really have no idea why though. Fear? Guilt? I really can't figure it out. Maybe emotional attachment to the house, since the bulk of my inheritance is in it, and that is all I have left from my folks. 

Moving out will be a challenge. Apartments are few and far between in my area. Especially ones big enough to provide space for the kids in shared custody and it kills me to throw money away in rent that could be used to finance a mortgage. The financial split has to happen before I can get my credit up to where a new mortgage is possible.

Everything is set on the lawyer front. She has all the information she needs, and is ready to proceed on my word.

D2 is controlling her card use right now. I can't trust it to continue though. It's easy to change for a month or two when she knows I'm watching everything. She is also acting clingy in front of the kids, physically blocking my way demanding hugs in front of them knowing I won't make a scene then. Then warning me that 'they suspect something' after. I don't know if it is her intent, but it feels like she is playing the "don't do this to the kids" card to guilt me into doing nothing. Even when I've explained that even on my off weeks I'd be willing to do everything for them that I do now. I mean, I know the kids will be hurt in this. I feel guilty enough about it already. But I'll be across town (I wouldn't move out of the school district). I'll pay for their phones. And the twins will be driving soon.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Moving out is always a challenge. Don’t let it stop you, you can work it out somehow. Keep posting and we will keep encouraging. 



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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks, 3X. I appreciate it.

I’m a bit all over the place right now and questioning myself. I’ve always been the type to not jump unless I knew it was the right thing to do. So now am I being selfish? Unreasonable? Overreacting? 

Then I look at the spreadsheet of the debt she made and get sick all over. In perspective, it is enough to pay for one child’s college. If I were still In the Navy, my clearance would have been revoked and I would have lost my job as a security risk. Minimum monthly payments could fund a McMansion mortgage. And instead of ever saying this is a problem we need to solve, she was still opening new credit. 

I have always been soft on boundaries. But if this isn’t one I don’t know what would ever be.


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## DoesItGetBetter? (Aug 16, 2019)

DownButNotOut - Your wife has abused your family's finances, and she has betrayed your trust by hiding it from you. As such, you need to set a firm boundary with credit cards with her to prevent this from happening again, possibly ruing you all financially. 

1) Demand that she cancels all her cards and follow up until this is complete. 

2) Put her on cash-only, like you are, budgeting using envelopes every month for expected spending categories (groceries, out to eat, clothing, etc.) for the amount that your family can sustain, with her input. 

3) Freeze her credit. Simply contact the three major credit bureaus and have them freeze her credit. This will prevent her from opening new credit lines without your knowledge. 

If she refuses to do any of these simply and easy steps, you know that she has no intention of stopping the spending or deceit, and a divorce is the likely solution. Of course, tell her in advance explicitly that these demands of yours must be met or you will divorce her. The sexless part would really be a problem for me, as well as the financial problem. I’m sorry that you are in this situation.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Are you planning on having the kids go to college? There should be ways to re-structure the debt in a manner that will make you look more "college-aid" eligible. If you haven't yet, make yourself familiar with FAFSA calculations. With twins about to turn 16, you probably have to make any changes to your financial situation by the end of this calendar year for it to have a helpful impact on college situation. (FAFSA does a double-year look-back.) Also, if there's anything you can do to accelerate your income into this year and take lower income next year, that would likely help your college aid situation tremendously.

Have you considered taking a loan against the house, paying off all the debt? At least some of the interest would be tax-deductible. Only way you stay together in the short-term is if you freeze her credit profile and get notification of any unfreeze. Let's say you hang around another three years to get twins out of the house, you get a divorce and house is sold as part of the divorce process. Debt is gone, but at least the remainder of your inheritance nestegg remains.

At the very least, a consolidation loan will whack down the interest rate and let you start chipping away at the principle of the debt. 

Your job now is to triage the situation and stop the financial bleeding. You can lament past missteps, but the whining is hollow if you don't take active steps now. Get the debt under control and minimize its damage as best as possible. Then make financial fidelity a boundary for marriage moving forward. Freeze her credit as a condition for staying - with you being notified if she tries to unfreeze. Once you get things under control, then you consider to plusses/minuses of divorce once the smoke clears. 

Also, any inheritance on her horizon? You could make a condition of sticking around is that first chunk of that inheritance goes to paying off the home consolidation loan you are about to take out.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Again I thank God that my xwife ran off with the friend/neighbor! Married 30 years I was devestated but at least I was forced to act. Forced to start over. Way better than watching a grown man contemplate what he needs to do for 10years, then complain that his **** situation only got worse over those years. Paid off home? Wow. So you sell it, pay off your debt (whatever that amount my be) then maybe have to rent for a while. Not the end of the world. 

I dont think you will do anything, there will always be a good reason why you dont. Your choice, your life. Just do me a favor, when you are older and bitter, remember who put you there. You.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

@DoesItGetBetter? - yes. The sexless part is also a problem. I was already on the fence over that as well. Finding the financial problems on top of that finally got me to a lawyer. IF I chose to stay, I like your ideas. Of course that comes with having to police spending behavior until I could trust again. I don’t know if I can accept that. I won’t give an ultimatum “do X or divorce”. At best I believe it compels behavior through fear and damages the relationship going forward. D2 did that to take control of the finances. When I gave in on that years ago I told her that was her one use of that play. It shaded every choice I’ve made since. I’d rather just pull the plug than use divorce as a bargaining chip.

@MarriedTex huh. FAFSA is an argument for divorce. It only uses the custodial parent’s income. So the best move for college aid is divorce and make sure D2 counts as the custodial parent. I could use home equity or a 401k withdrawal to deal with the card debt. But I know a man who did that and found himself right back in the same spot a few years later when his wife did the same thing. All the lawyers I know also have client war stories of the same thing. The only way to 100% protect myself is to legally separate finances - divorce. She does have inheritance coming in the next few years.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

[/QUOTE]
@MarriedTex huh. FAFSA is an argument for divorce. It only uses the custodial parent’s income. So the best move for college aid is divorce and make sure D2 counts as the custodial parent. I could use home equity or a 401k withdrawal to deal with the card debt. But I know a man who did that and found himself right back in the same spot a few years later when his wife did the same thing. All the lawyers I know also have client war stories of the same thing. The only way to 100% protect myself is to legally separate finances - divorce. She does have inheritance coming in the next few years.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I believe they've changed FAFSA rules in recent years to count both parents' income, regardless of marital status. The parameters on FAFSA change with regularity, so it's dangerous to assume what may have held five years ago is the case now. I'm no expert certainly, and have no skin in the FAFSA game and no need to keep up with the rules changes anymore with my kids now graduated. 

But five years ago, I was watching FAFSA like a hawk, looking for any little edge. If you pay close attention now, it's something that could save you (and/or your kids) tens of thousands of dollars down the line. (I became quite expert at making myself look as poor as possible - on paper, at least. But my knowledge is largely obsolete now.) Of course, the twins will be quite "FAFSA-friendly" as you know, just because they'll both be going at the same time-splitting the size of the expected family contribution for each. 

Assuming that your remaining inheritance resides outside retirement, you have some tough decisions to make soon. Big chunks of free / non-retirement savings can cost you dearly in FAFSA calculations. From a FAFSA perspective, if you are still married then, you would be best positioned if you use savings to pay off unsecured debt. (Savings increase college bill, while unsecured debt has no impact- I believe) Of course, you don't want to sink inheritance dollars into paying off her half of the debt if you don't remain married. 

I don't envy you. A lot of conflicting factors to consider. But just encouraging you to become a FAFSA ninja because that may be the biggest variable (aside from potential divorce, of course) that will shape your financial position over the next five to seven years.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

The absence of sex, in my opinion, makes the divorce decision a done deal. That in itself is a divorceable offense. Add in this blatant disrespect and disregard for your family’s well-being... hell no. You deserve a bette life and a real partner. 




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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

I worked with my bank today. The good news is Credit Karma's credit rating was completely wrong. My credit is fine at the moment. In fact it is better than D2's. We pulled my credit report and went over it all together. Of course that means that using home equity to consolidate the credit card debt ends up cheaper if I don't add her to the loan. Gah!

So Door 1: I stay. Take the $60K loan. Give up on any kind of regular intimacy. Play credit police for the foreseeable future.

Door 2: Leave. Still probably end up with the $60K loan in my name. AND cough up $300-350K to get out without alimony. OR Cough up $250K and expect 800-1000/month alimony for life. And only 50/50 custody of the kiddos. But then be free to live my life on my terms.

A darned hard pill to swallow either way. 

The other bright news is that I hadn't considered that I qualify for a VA home loan if needed. This helps lock in a lower rate, means no PMI, and frees up money that would otherwise be needed for a downpayment. It makes it easier to negotiate a no-alimony settlement.

There are currently no 3br rentals available in my area. There are a few homes in my price range.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Thinking........


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Is there any way check with your lawyer about a public posting for as of this day for you would not be responsible for spouse debts. And makes her go nutso to a point she wants out then you only offer way less than what you just wrote.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Is 60k the amount AFTER the debt is split with W?? You shouldnt assume you have to do this in the divorce scenario, because the debt will be split, and most likely SHE will end up with all debt that is solely in her name. If you do this and you stay with her, she will just run more debt up at some point, this is just who she is.

Guess you need to figure out what is the most important thing to you... your money or your life.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

@Tilted 1 - She (my lawyer) talked about using a post-nup for what you are talking about. It would be freezing marital assets now, separating assets/debts like divorce, and keeping finances separate from then on. However, she also stressed that the enforceability of post-nups have never been tested in the courts in my state. So they may be as strong as tissue.

60K is the total credit card debt. I've been running a lot of scenarios with and without alimony. I think in order to get 0 alimony, I would have to be willing to assume her share of credit debt. If alimony is on the table, then I wouldn't accept the full debt load, and would insist on more of the house equity. Basically trade equity now for no lifetime obligation.

So we had another talk last night to bring D2 up to speed with the bank information. She had lots of tears, 'I'm sorry"s , I'll never do it agains. And she asked if I wanted a divorce. My answer was that I wanted to never be in this situation again. She then started focusing on the kids. How they don't deserve this. How I would be blowing up their world. That's the part that hurts. Because it hits at my biggest fear over the whole thing - how will the kids be.

I hate this.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

DownButNotOut said:


> @Tilted 1 - She (my lawyer) talked about using a post-nup for what you are talking about. It would be freezing marital assets now, separating assets/debts like divorce, and keeping finances separate from then on. However, she also stressed that the enforceability of post-nups have never been tested in the courts in my state. So they may be as strong as tissue.
> 
> 60K is the total credit card debt. I've been running a lot of scenarios with and without alimony. I think in order to get 0 alimony, I would have to be willing to assume her share of credit debt. If alimony is on the table, then I wouldn't accept the full debt load, and would insist on more of the house equity. Basically trade equity now for no lifetime obligation.
> 
> ...


Hold on brother, I can't remember everything about your thread, but what I do know is that you did not cause this, she did. 

So the part about the kids is complete and utter BS. She blew their world up not you... And you might freaking remind her of that the next time that she says something so stupid...


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"She then started focusing on the kids. How they don't deserve this. How I would be blowing up their world. That's the part that hurts. Because it hits at my biggest fear over the whole thing - how will the kids be."

This is pure unadulterated manipulation on her part. She knows your triggers, and is hitting everything she can to not have you divorce her and just rug sweep.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Update:

I decided that the best way forward was to go through with the home equity loan, and move the debt there. In my mind, this doesn't change the asset distribution. It gets me a "free" home appraisal through the bank. And it fixes my credit rating.

Once that closes, I can look at my finances again and see how doable divorce will be.

In the meantime, I have good and bad days. Some crazy anxiety at times. I've tried to get D2 to sit down to talk finances, she has been putting me off a bit about it.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Your next *best investment* is a divorce attorney.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Your next *best investment* is a divorce attorney.


I have an attorney picked, and her retainer set to go.

The point of this credit move is to stop it being a reason to stay. I know I've used my lack of credit rating, and the crazy minimum payments on those cards as a reason to feel trapped in limbo. It's a move forward, and one that I am controlling. 

Everything is moving at the speed of Banking right now though. It is hard to keep my resolve through the waiting. Right now what I most need is to keep getting reality checks. Since I don't have a RL support system, TAM has to be the go to. Thanks.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Well, the bank is finally almost ready to close the home equity loan. The bad news there is that my home appraisal came in about $25K lower than I thought it would. It shouldn't change the loan, only the value of all assets. I expected to be well past this point by now. 

It also means my anxiety level is rising again. I'm struggling with the best way to make the next step.

Sign a lease on one of the very few appts in my area, and move out early.

Have the lawyer file first

Try to talk about it all again with D2 before filing

Ideally I'd like to start with not renting, and purchase my new home. But I'm not sure how the timing of that will work out. I would think a loan is difficult to get mid-divorce?


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## jlcrome (Nov 5, 2017)

Kick the can for another 12 years by then maybe you be on "ssi" ssi can't be garnished by creditors. Just pay minimum amount enough too keep them happy. Ok ok I'm throwing a hail mary here lol 12 years is a very long time.
Have you joined the MGTOW club??


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