# The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R



## MEM2020

In an LTR the ideal emotional temperature is one that BOTH people are comfortable with. Couples often “fight” for decades over the “thermostat” setting. He likes it really warm and constantly shows and wants to be shown love. She is likes it cooler and dislikes constantly being barraged with “love” as it makes her feel emotionally crowded. She starts seeing him as “clingy and insecure” and she withdraws. He clings harder, she pulls back further feeling ever more crowded. Sex dies and he frantically tries to raise the temperature using an ever increasing stream of love. She loses respect and ends it or has an affair. 
When you overheat someone with too much love, THEIR natural reaction is to try to “cool off” by giving you less love and less OR by provoking conflict to get you to go BACK UP. And they often reduce/stop having sex with you because when they already feel overheated/claustrophobic the LAST thing they want is the intense closeness of sex. Below is an example of badly mismatched thermostat settings.

The WARM/HOT partner wants to “raise” the temperature so they:
1.	Are almost always saying ILY or IAILWY first
2.	Typically initiate calls/texts/emails when apart/one or both are at work
3.	Make “peace” after a fight even when your partner clearly wronged you 
4.	Walk around visibly angry/VERY angry after a fight (this comes across as “I am furious that you – the person I LOVE SO MUCH – is doing x,y,z to ME
5.	Anxiously keep trying to make up when you were in the wrong because you cannot bear having them angry with you
6.	Are mostly/always initiating physical contact (hugs, kisses, touches, groping)
7.	When anxious you initiate “talks” about the R, typically to “fix” them/their behavior 
8.	Do MORE, sometimes WAY MORE than your fair share of housework
9.	Put their needs ahead of yours whenever there is a priority conflict
10.	Are constantly seeking their approval
11.	Show anxiety or fear when they are angry/frustrated with you
12.	Initiate sex when their body language radiates a “lack” of interest/desire, pout/sulk get angry when they tactfully decline sex
The COOL partner wants less warmth so they:
1.	React irritably/with hostility to HOT behaviors such as:
a.	Discussions about the R
b.	Requests for sex. An irritated “NO” when asked for sex is an attempt to throw a bucket of ice water on a painfully overheated moment
2.	Often behave more and more disrespectfully to their warmer partner and often steadily deprioritize both the partner and the R hoping to lower the temperature
3.	Provoke their partner to create conflict and space

The Warm partner thinks they are repeatedly conveying “I LOVE YOU” with all this activity. The Cooler partner actually hears it as a question, repeated over and over ad nauseum: “Do YOU love ME”? Imagine if you replaced every loving act by literally asking “Do you love me”? How well do you think THAT would fly. 

The core message this thermostat mismatch sends to the cooler partner is: I DON’T DESERVE YOU. And over time your behavior convinces them you are right.


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## credamdóchasgra

MEM...

Switch the "he" and "she."

does this still apply?

IF you find yourself as the "warm/hot" partner in this mismatch, (in some but not all of the ways that are listed), what do you do to change the dynamic?

One more question:
What is "IAILWY" ?


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## MisterNiceGuy

MEM so timely for me. This hits me dead on and it make me want to puke...

Can we make this a sticky?


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## MEM2020

Creda,
YES. 

I am about to do a post on "changing the temperature".




credamdóchasgra said:


> MEM...
> 
> Switch the "he" and "she."
> 
> does this still apply?
> 
> IF you find yourself as the "warm/hot" partner in this mismatch, (in some but not all of the ways that are listed), what do you do to change the dynamic?
> 
> One more question:
> What is "IAILWY" ?


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Me too.

I'm the HOT partner and that's what I'm trying to pull away from. It's erie how accurate your list was. To do this I'm:

1. Not saying ILY first. In fact, I haven't said it in a week and neither has he.
2. I have not initiated any calls in almost two weeks.
3. After our last spat, I did not call to apologize or try to make up, he was clearly in the wrong and it wasn't up to me to do the making up.
4. After the last spat, I came home in a good mood and acted like nothing had happened even though I was upset.
5. Not doing it anymore
6. Trying to detach from that also. Not initiating the "goodnight" kiss, or the hug first, or any type of touching FIRST.
7. Not initiating any more "talks" about the R. If he has issues, he knows where I am, this one-sided marriage is not working for me anymore.
8. We already had this worked out. I do INSIDE, he does OUTSIDE (we have 2 acres). So no issues here, never has been.
9. This I have trouble with, but working on it. Like the other day when he invited me to lunch, told him I was busy, in the past I would have dropped what I was doing and joined him.
10. I'm still working on this too. I'm trying to figure out why it's so DAMN important to me that I get his approval - I didn't need it before I met him.
11. I get a knot in my stomach when he is upset with me - this will take time to figure out in counselling.
12. Boy with this one - you sound like you were sitting on my shoulder. I can't read his body language anymore and am afraid to even initiate and yes, I do get pissed when he rejects me - though I should be used to it by now. But rejection moves me back to #11 and #10. But - working on it.

And the COOL partner could describe my husband to a "T". 


This is a timely thread, at least for me, and I would be happy to entertain additional suggestions, other than what I'm already doing to change this dynamic...permanently, to save my sanity and our relationship.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> YES.
> 
> I am about to do a post on "changing the temperature".


Great - I'm waiting on it too...

Any good websites that discuss this further will help also.

Now, if you could wave your magic wand and fix his "porn issue", I would LOVE you forever, don't tell your wife...


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## credamdóchasgra

The HARDEST one for me is:

make peace after a spat.

Why is this so hard?

1. I like peace.
2. The spat was stupid, shouldn't have happened in the first place, so let's just clear it up and move on, shall we?
3. I'm afraid that if I don't step in to facilitate that peace, he won't, and he prefers the hostility/space/distance.
4. I want to show him how nice the alternative can be (clarifying, having peace, understanding)---if you want to throw the Codependent card at me, have at it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

MW,
You really are doing all the right things. And it is also true he might ultimately prove to be a selfish/bad enough partner that you leave him. That said, at the point you leave you will have much less anguish/remorse because you will have known you did everything you could. 

I will post a few more suggestions in the next day or so but mainly they will be along the lines of:
- After a fight - if you can detach and not let the "argument" become your emotional universe that is a big big help
- Fighting itself should become less emotional and more "rational" - are they willing to "commit" to doing/not doing specific things. 
- Certain behaviors are just not acceptable to you and if they continue you will do x, y, z (you have to be willing to follow through)

A calm question that you insist on a clear answer to - and a firm/calm/determined statement of consequence for future bad behavior are all "low" temperature means of conflict. They are the hallmark of someone who will not stay in an emotionally toxic relationship because the other person is so "wonderful" on paper......




MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Me too.
> 
> I'm the HOT partner and that's what I'm trying to pull away from. It's erie how accurate your list was. To do this I'm:
> 
> 1. Not saying ILY first. In fact, I haven't said it in a week and neither has he.
> 2. I have not initiated any calls in almost two weeks.
> 3. After our last spat, I did not call to apologize or try to make up, he was clearly in the wrong and it wasn't up to me to do the making up.
> 4. After the last spat, I came home in a good mood and acted like nothing had happened even though I was upset.
> 5. Not doing it anymore
> 6. Trying to detach from that also. Not initiating the "goodnight" kiss, or the hug first, or any type of touching FIRST.
> 7. Not initiating any more "talks" about the R. If he has issues, he knows where I am, this one-sided marriage is not working for me anymore.
> 8. We already had this worked out. I do INSIDE, he does OUTSIDE (we have 2 acres). So no issues here, never has been.
> 9. This I have trouble with, but working on it. Like the other day when he invited me to lunch, told him I was busy, in the past I would have dropped what I was doing and joined him.
> 10. I'm still working on this too. I'm trying to figure out why it's so DAMN important to me that I get his approval - I didn't need it before I met him.
> 11. I get a knot in my stomach when he is upset with me - this will take time to figure out in counselling.
> 12. Boy with this one - you sound like you were sitting on my shoulder. I can't read his body language anymore and am afraid to even initiate and yes, I do get pissed when he rejects me - though I should be used to it by now. But rejection moves me back to #11 and #10. But - working on it.
> 
> And the COOL partner could describe my husband to a "T".
> 
> 
> This is a timely thread, at least for me, and I would be happy to entertain additional suggestions, other than what I'm already doing to change this dynamic...permanently, to save my sanity and our relationship.


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## MEM2020

Does he ever admit he was wrong? Say he was sorry?




credamdóchasgra said:


> The HARDEST one for me is:
> 
> make peace after a spat.
> 
> Why is this so hard?
> 
> 1. I like peace.
> 2. The spat was stupid, shouldn't have happened in the first place, so let's just clear it up and move on, shall we?
> 3. I'm afraid that if I don't step in to facilitate that peace, he won't, and he prefers the hostility/space/distance.
> 4. I want to show him how nice the alternative can be (clarifying, having peace, understanding)---if you want to throw the Codependent card at me, have at it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> Does he ever admit he was wrong? Say he was sorry?


Sometimes.

If he does it without me initiating the peace-making, it seems more genuine to me.

Yesterday for example, he started yelling over me and telling me what I had meant by some opinion I expressed.
I responded in a calm and quiet tone, "that is not what I meant by that."
he said "my mistake."

But lately, for the most part, when he gets reactive and explosive, he is inconsistent as to whether he'll see, own, and apologize for it without me trying to make peace.
I get the sense he still sees me as the "cause" of his overreactions.

The best MO I can imagine, aside from adjusting my temp and staying calm, is to not point fingers at him when we go to MC, back off in there, and let the counselor lead our sessions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Is it possible he is just "in general" tense/edgy? 

How often do you talk about "what he did wrong" as opposed to "what you would like him to do differently next time"?

Is he generally volatile with people or just with you?




credamdóchasgra said:


> Sometimes.
> 
> If he does it without me initiating the peace-making, it seems more genuine to me.
> 
> Yesterday for example, he started yelling over me and telling me what I had meant by some opinion I expressed.
> I responded in a calm and quiet tone, "that is not what I meant by that."
> he said "my mistake."
> 
> But lately, for the most part, when he gets reactive and explosive, he is inconsistent as to whether he'll see, own, and apologize for it without me trying to make peace.
> I get the sense he still sees me as the "cause" of his overreactions.
> 
> The best MO I can imagine, aside from adjusting my temp and staying calm, is to not point fingers at him when we go to MC, back off in there, and let the counselor lead our sessions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> Is it possible he is just "in general" tense/edgy?
> 
> How often do you talk about "what he did wrong" as opposed to "what you would like him to do differently next time"?
> 
> Is he generally volatile with people or just with you?


it's generally his personality.
Yes, I knew that before I married him. But I can honestly say it has gotten worse.
And even though it's "just how he is," I get the brunt of his hard edge, I'm guessing because i'm closest to him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TrueGentleman

Wow, MEM, it feels like you've been looking directly into my mind. Everything on your list strikes very close to home, other than #12. When my wife first slipped into depression, she had a really difficult time getting aroused and asked me not to initiate sex and to let her do it. Years later I've been so well-trained to not initiate that even after we've discussed it and I no longer "have" to wait for her to initiate, I still find myself mostly unable to do it. That probably has a lot to do with the fact that I am very good at reading her body language and unless she is initiating, her body language is radiating "no."

Excellent post though. I have to admit that I have built up some degree of resentment over the years, feeling a bit "ripped off" that I don't get the level of affection that I give and that overall I feel that I've been more emotionally invested in our relationship. When I've talked to her about wanting more affection that she was giving me, she basically told me that I was being too needy and that if I backed off and stopped wanting it so much that she'd feel more inclined to give it to me. I got angry about this, because she was going off of her anti-depressants at the time and for 3 or 4 months had been rather cool towards me, criticizing me and taking out her anger on me on a near-daily basis. I had the whole martyr thing going; I'd been patient and tolerant and loving, doing everything that she asked me to do, and all I wanted was a little more affection -- and she treated me like dirt instead?

Now, the part about me needing to back off and stop asking for her to be affectionate was absolutely true, and is an important part of this whole "man up/nice guy" stuff. At the time, it just felt like something else that she wanted me to do, and that was how it was taken. It didn't seem fair that I even had to ask for her to be more affectionate -- it should have just been a given that she would return my affection. I understand now that I need to not ask for her to be affectionate, but that is because I need to be responsible for my own happiness and it is not simply yet another request of hers in a seemingly endless stream of them. Of course, she didn't tell me that I also needed to back off and demonstrate less love and affection towards her, but it is clear to me now that this is the other half of the equation.

When she's feeling emotionally crowded or overwhelmed and as a result isn't emotionally available to me, I need to cool down both the level of affection that I expect to receive from her and the level of affection which I am demonstrating. She was emotionally overwhelmed and had nothing left to reciprocate, and I just amped up the amount of affection that I was demonstrating towards her.

And I understand now that this is at the core of the whole "nice guy" problem. When our partner pulls back on what they are contributing the the relationship -- be it affection, sex, demonstrations of love, housework, or whatever -- our natural response is to contribute even more in the hopes that it will somehow motivate them or convince them to do likewise. I see clearly now not only that this doesn't work, but that this actually makes it worse and perpetuates a cycle.


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## MEM2020

TG,
I noticed something utterly fascinating watching a show called "Bill and Guliana" - Bill Rancik was Trumps first apprentice. 

This is what I noticed:
- Bill is the nice guy
- Guiliana is the alpha in their marriage

I watched an interview with Guiliana after the show launched and this is what she said "It was really eye opening WATCHING myself with Bill. I interrupt him a lot and don't treat him as well as I should". 

If you put a hidden cam/tape recorder in your kitchen your W would legitimately get upset. BUT you can accomplish "almost" the same thing in certain situations. 

Wife: Snaps at you
You: Quietly look at her until she is looking at you or you say something like "hey" to get her to look at you
You: Repeat what she said in as close to perfect tone/pitch and definitely verbatim on the words
You: Look at her silently with some body language that makes it perfectly clear "that" type treatment is not going to fly. 
If she starts to argue - gets aggressive - just hold up your hand and firmly shake your head. Do not say anything - she understand perfectly what is happening. This interaction is NOT about communication, it is about bullying your partner. Her attempting to bully you. This will silently convey that "there is no WAY in hell are you going to get away with doubling down on this". If she continues just walk away and do NOT make the peace on this. 

You need to get your W to UNLEARN the habit of taking her bad days out on you. 

If you back off enough - while remaining fun/playful maybe even a little edgy SHE will come to you. And she will love you MORE. She wants an equal. 

No matter WHAT you do with her. Practice a blend of very few words and reinforcing body language. 

Do NOT talk about your feelings about HER behavior even if she asks. Her behaviors are all:
- respectful/disrespectful
- acceptable/unacceptable
- not ideal - followed by a brief/brief suggestion as to how you would prefer she handle that situation in the future

"You are better than that" is the adult version of parent/child guilt. Works like magic - if not overused.

When she asks "what is happening" just smile. 





TrueGentleman said:


> Wow, MEM, it feels like you've been looking directly into my mind. Everything on your list strikes very close to home, other than #12. When my wife first slipped into depression, she had a really difficult time getting aroused and asked me not to initiate sex and to let her do it. Years later I've been so well-trained to not initiate that even after we've discussed it and I no longer "have" to wait for her to initiate, I still find myself mostly unable to do it. That probably has a lot to do with the fact that I am very good at reading her body language and unless she is initiating, her body language is radiating "no."
> 
> Excellent post though. I have to admit that I have built up some degree of resentment over the years, feeling a bit "ripped off" that I don't get the level of affection that I give and that overall I feel that I've been more emotionally invested in our relationship. When I've talked to her about wanting more affection that she was giving me, she basically told me that I was being too needy and that if I backed off and stopped wanting it so much that she'd feel more inclined to give it to me. I got angry about this, because she was going off of her anti-depressants at the time and for 3 or 4 months had been rather cool towards me, criticizing me and taking out her anger on me on a near-daily basis. I had the whole martyr thing going; I'd been patient and tolerant and loving, doing everything that she asked me to do, and all I wanted was a little more affection -- and she treated me like dirt instead?
> 
> Now, the part about me needing to back off and stop asking for her to be affectionate was absolutely true, and is an important part of this whole "man up/nice guy" stuff. At the time, it just felt like something else that she wanted me to do, and that was how it was taken. It didn't seem fair that I even had to ask for her to be more affectionate -- it should have just been a given that she would return my affection. I understand now that I need to not ask for her to be affectionate, but that is because I need to be responsible for my own happiness and it is not simply yet another request of hers in a seemingly endless stream of them. Of course, she didn't tell me that I also needed to back off and demonstrate less love and affection towards her, but it is clear to me now that this is the other half of the equation.
> 
> When she's feeling emotionally crowded or overwhelmed and as a result isn't emotionally available to me, I need to cool down both the level of affection that I expect to receive from her and the level of affection which I am demonstrating. She was emotionally overwhelmed and had nothing left to reciprocate, and I just amped up the amount of affection that I was demonstrating towards her.
> 
> And I understand now that this is at the core of the whole "nice guy" problem. When our partner pulls back on what they are contributing the the relationship -- be it affection, sex, demonstrations of love, housework, or whatever -- our natural response is to contribute even more in the hopes that it will somehow motivate them or convince them to do likewise. I see clearly now not only that this doesn't work, but that this actually makes it worse and perpetuates a cycle.


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## credamdóchasgra

Seriously, if the H were the moody snapper in the above scene, would those steps be as effective if roles were reversed?
Or is it different with a moody angry man, because men are naturally more intimidating physcally etc.?
Considering differences between the sexes, how effective could that be if the wife is the one who stays calm and the H is hot-tempered?
He has no idea how much it is eroding my respect for him, but I guess that's beside the point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

You can be as "soft" or as "firm" in approach style as you wish. All I know is with an angry guy he IS angry - get him to tell you why and he may start working on himself. Poke at him when he is already torqued and you likely won't learn anything and neither will he. 

How "generally" angry is he that you aren't working?




credamdóchasgra said:


> Seriously, if the H were the moody snapper in the above scene, would those steps be as effective if roles were reversed?
> Or is it different with a moody angry man, because men are naturally more intimidating physcally etc.?
> Considering differences between the sexes, how effective could that be if the wife is the one who stays calm and the H is hot-tempered?
> He has no idea how much it is eroding my respect for him, but I guess that's beside the point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> You can be as "soft" or as "firm" in approach style as you wish. All I know is with an angry guy he IS angry - get him to tell you why and he may start working on himself. Poke at him when he is already torqued and you likely won't learn anything and neither will he.
> 
> How "generally" angry is he that you aren't working?


I don't think he is angry that I'm not working.
I'm finishing a degree and defending in March, and I offered to work part-time (I had 2 opportunities), but maybe he resents it under the surface and doesn't even realize it.
He prides himself on being so supportive of me while I take a year off to finish my degree, and I know he's stressed about the inconsistency of his employment (free-lance IT support).
He's never made me feel bad about it.
Since the whole "provider" thing is important to him, I could see how it plays a role in his stress.
---but isn't it an example of "taking it out on me" to get all irate with me in our conversations?
I'd much rather he TELL me he's resentful of carrying all the $ responsibility; I could understand.
Instead, he just snaps over other things and tells me I'm the problem. 
And I'm sick of him getting away with losing his temper over small things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coops

Very good thread Mem


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## credamdóchasgra

Here's an interesting thing:

when he has one of those mini-tantrums, the consequence is that my temp cools down within the next day or so.
As a freaking survival defense mechanism.

I just don't cozy up warm and sweet to the guy who screams, cusses, and makes irrational threats.
The guy who can communicate rationally will get a good rogering from a happy, smiling wife.

When will he EVER get that message?

So yes, I'm playing it cool right now on the thermometer, but I'd rather be warm in a mutual way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

WHY is a request to spend time doing something "free" triggering an outburst? Find out. Something doesn't make sense.




credamdóchasgra said:


> Here's an interesting thing:
> 
> when he has one of those mini-tantrums, the consequence is that my temp cools down within the next day or so.
> As a freaking survival defense mechanism.
> 
> I just don't cozy up warm and sweet to the guy who screams, cusses, and makes irrational threats.
> The guy who can communicate rationally will get a good rogering from a happy, smiling wife.
> 
> When will he EVER get that message?
> 
> So yes, I'm playing it cool right now on the thermometer, but I'd rather be warm in a mutual way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TrueGentleman

MEM11363 said:


> If you put a hidden cam/tape recorder in your kitchen your W would legitimately get upset. BUT you can accomplish "almost" the same thing in certain situations.


On several occasions, I have thought of recording one of our interactions so that I could show her just how inappropriately she was behaving. It could easily backfire though, so I haven't.



MEM11363 said:


> Wife: Snaps at you
> You: Quietly look at her until she is looking at you or you say something like "hey" to get her to look at you
> You: Repeat what she said in as close to perfect tone/pitch and definitely verbatim on the words
> You: Look at her silently with some body language that makes it perfectly clear "that" type treatment is not going to fly.
> If she starts to argue - gets aggressive - just hold up your hand and firmly shake your head. Do not say anything - she understand perfectly what is happening. This interaction is NOT about communication, it is about bullying your partner. Her attempting to bully you. This will silently convey that "there is no WAY in hell are you going to get away with doubling down on this". If she continues just walk away and do NOT make the peace on this.


I definitely have to work on the body language part, as it seems like it would be very easy to come across as threatening without meaning to.

Sometimes when she snaps at me, I try to give her a look that says "WHAT did you just say to me?" and not say anything. It is usually interpreted as a blank, vacant, uncomprehending look and she then gets pissed about that. At which point I tell her that it is extremely offensive and insulting to assume that I'm giving her a blank look just because I don't say anything. Probably not the best response on my part.

I have to be very careful about repeating what she said back to her, because she will pick apart my wording as not being exactly what she said. This happened last night, actually. We were purchasing something online and she was holding the baby so I put the transaction through for her. I didn't see an option to change the Paypal payment type, so I finished the transaction. 

She flipped out because it was going to go to her bank account instead of her credit card, and then snapped at me that "I shouldn't have let you do it." 

My first response was "no, I guess you shouldn't have," with more than a hint of anger in my tone. 

As soon as the words get out of my mouth, I said "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have responded like that. You told me that 'I should never have let you do it.' I would never say such a thing to you, so please don't say it to me."

Her first response was "I didn't say that I _never_ should have let you do it, I just said that I shouldn't have..."

I didn't let her get any further with it. I said that "it amounts to the same thing, and I'm not going to argue over exact wording. The message was the same."

She paused for a moment, and then said "you're right. I'm sorry that I snapped at you and said that."

Within the next half hour, she apologized to me two more times for "being a b*tch" to me (her words, not mine).



MEM11363 said:


> You need to get your W to UNLEARN the habit of taking her bad days out on you.
> 
> If you back off enough - while remaining fun/playful maybe even a little edgy SHE will come to you. And she will love you MORE. She wants an equal.


I feel like this is already starting to happen. I've been taking this approach for a little over a week, and I've diffused every potential situation with either a bit of humor (showing that it just rolled off of me like water off a duck) or by calling her on her behavior and not letting myself get emotional. In the former situation, she often acted like nothing happened, and in the latter, she'd sometimes get distant for a few minutes but then be back to "normal" shortly thereafter.

The power balance in the relationship already seems to be shifting back in favor of balance. I haven't truly been tested yet, so I'm not going to get too full of myself. I think that she is starting to realize that I'm not reacting the way that she's used to.



MEM11363 said:


> No matter WHAT you do with her. Practice a blend of very few words and reinforcing body language.
> 
> Do NOT talk about your feelings about HER behavior even if she asks. Her behaviors are all:
> - respectful/disrespectful
> - acceptable/unacceptable
> - not ideal - followed by a brief/brief suggestion as to how you would prefer she handle that situation in the future
> 
> "You are better than that" is the adult version of parent/child guilt. Works like magic - if not overused.
> 
> When she asks "what is happening" just smile.


Great advice. If I don't catch myself, I'll turn everything into an in-depth discussion and analysis and I'll end up saying way too much.


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## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> WHY is a request to spend time doing something "free" triggering an outburst? Find out. Something doesn't make sense.





MEM11363 said:


> WHY is a request to spend time doing something "free" triggering an outburst? Find out. Something doesn't make sense.


It's not about whether it's free. I understand it sufficiently for my own satisfaction:

it was playing cards.
He has a weird anti bias against 3 things:
1. Things his parents did (play cards on Friday nights with friends)
2. Things that he thinks "waste time."
3. Things that my family loves to do together

he's kind of judgmental about things that weren't "his idea."
plus he thought I was nagging, because I repeated myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra

And p.s. These are things I figured out on my own after his strong reaction, and when I thought about it in the big picture of his reactions to his parents, to dealing with his in-laws, etc...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Thanks Coop




coops said:


> Very good thread Mem


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## MEM2020

Hmmm.

Early on my W displayed a tendency towards "relentless" focus on her goals. REGARDLESS of what I told her I wanted/did not want. 

Sadly (disclaimer this was BAD behavior on my part) I quickly adopted the following posture:
- Enthusiastic support of anything I WAS ok with 
- ONE time I would say 'no' to something and briefly explain why. When it came up again I EXPLODED. And then there was rarely a third time - but if there was I just get exploding. 

I do not do that anymore but I am much older/calmer now.




credamdóchasgra said:


> It's not about whether it's free. I understand it sufficiently for my own satisfaction:
> 
> it was playing cards.
> He has a weird anti bias against 3 things:
> 1. Things his parents did (play cards on Friday nights with friends)
> 2. Things that he thinks "waste time."
> 3. Things that my family loves to do together
> 
> he's kind of judgmental about things that weren't "his idea."
> plus he thought I was nagging, because I repeated myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Early on my W displayed a tendency towards "relentless" focus on her goals. REGARDLESS of what I told her I wanted/did not want.
> 
> Sadly (disclaimer this was BAD behavior on my part) I quickly adopted the following posture:
> - Enthusiastic support of anything I WAS ok with
> - ONE time I would say 'no' to something and briefly explain why. When it came up again I EXPLODED. And then there was rarely a third time - but if there was I just get exploding.
> I do not do that anymore but I am much older/calmer now.


I'm reading between your lines...
Repeating myself is part of what leads to his explosions? (I already know this.)
but I still don't think it justifies an explosion.

Did I read you right?

Here's how it goes:
me: "we should xyz!"
him: "my parents used to do that! We're going to do that with your sisters and parents on holidays! I'm not a person who does that for hours and hours on end every weekend!"
me: "okaaayy...but once in awhile it could be fun."
him: "grouse gripe grouse."
me: "geez, chill out, i'm not telling you to join a friggin league." (ok I didn't say that, I was more mellow.)
him: explosion.

A positive/neutral "sure, honey" would shut me up.
But he has to get on some soapbox jumping to conclusions about all prospective extreme scenarios surrounding card-playing.
It's exhausting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

You are not in the wrong here. 

Have you tried to have a conversation with him about the compromises inherent in a healthy marriage?

I think he should be willing to commit to doing stuff like that once or twice a month purely to show you that YOUR needs matter. 

If you asked him "Do you feel like I sometimes prioritize YOUR needs ahead of mine"? If he says no - gently give him some examples where you do. 

Then ask him - "as a sacrifice for ME, would you be willing to do X - if I promise not to ask you to do it more than Y times a month"?




credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm reading between your lines...
> Repeating myself is part of what leads to his explosions? (I already know this.)
> but I still don't think it justifies an explosion.
> 
> Did I read you right?
> 
> Here's how it goes:
> me: "we should xyz!"
> him: "my parents used to do that! We're going to do that with your sisters and parents on holidays! I'm not a person who does that for hours and hours on end every weekend!"
> me: "okaaayy...but once in awhile it could be fun."
> him: "grouse gripe grouse."
> me: "geez, chill out, i'm not telling you to join a friggin league." (ok I didn't say that, I was more mellow.)
> him: explosion.
> 
> A positive/neutral "sure, honey" would shut me up.
> But he has to get on some soapbox jumping to conclusions about all prospective extreme scenarios surrounding card-playing.
> It's exhausting.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> You are not in the wrong here.
> 
> Have you tried to have a conversation with him about the compromises inherent in a healthy marriage?
> 
> I think he should be willing to commit to doing stuff like that once or twice a month purely to show you that YOUR needs matter.
> 
> If you asked him "Do you feel like I sometimes prioritize YOUR needs ahead of mine"? If he says no - gently give him some examples where you do.
> 
> Then ask him - "as a sacrifice for ME, would you be willing to do X - if I promise not to ask you to do it more than Y times a month"?


what's funny is that he's always willing and happy to do "my" things with me or with my family.
We spend every holiday with them, he's taken up golf to spend time with my dad, we visit my sisters occasionally, etc.

It's this judgmental attitude that creeps up and surprises me out of the blue like I describe above.
It's like he does all these things with a smile, but under the surface he has some issue or resentment.
And he has NO desire to visit his own family---bad relationship there.

I think at the heart of a lot of it, honestly, is he doesn't know how to fit into this family he married into.
So he gets critical because he doesn't have control over things and doesn't feel entirely comfortable, although he *really* seems to.
I can have compassion when I see it that way.

We don't do "his" things or put his needs first in terms of how we spend our time.
But I think there are feelings and resentments he buries, that I don't hear about, and they come out in nasty ways instead of just talking to me about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## credamdóchasgra

And if there were things of "his" that he wanted to do, I'd happily do them!

I do...we go to his church and spend time with his friends an equal amount of time as mine.

But if he had something he was really into that he wanted me to join him for, I would.

I don't know...sometimes it just seems like he'd rather just be negative, and I don't get why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove

MEM11363 said:


> MW,
> You really are doing all the right things. And it is also true he might ultimately prove to be a selfish/bad enough partner that you leave him. That said, at the point you leave you will have much less anguish/remorse because you will have known you did everything you could.
> 
> I will post a few more suggestions in the next day or so but mainly they will be along the lines of:
> - After a fight - if you can detach and not let the "argument" become your emotional universe that is a big big help
> - Fighting itself should become less emotional and more "rational" - are they willing to "commit" to doing/not doing specific things.
> - Certain behaviors are just not acceptable to you and if they continue you will do x, y, z (you have to be willing to follow through)
> 
> A calm question that you insist on a clear answer to - and a firm/calm/determined statement of consequence for future bad behavior are all "low" temperature means of conflict. They are the hallmark of someone who will not stay in an emotionally toxic relationship because the other person is so "wonderful" on paper......


Thanks - I am trying and have seen small nuggets of positive behavior from him in response. 

The one I have extreme difficulty with is acceptable behaviors and consequences when they aren't met. I'm terrible at issuing ultimatums and following them through and unfortunately, he knows it. His medical issues don't help - he knows perfectly well that I'm not the type of person to abandon somewho who is sick.

He, for some reason, doesn't believe I love him and am only staying with him because I feel sorry for him because he's sick, but that's actually not true. I wouldn't stay with anyone because I felt sorry for them - I truly love this man and don't know what I'm doing wrong that he believes that I don't love him - maybe this is the root of the problems sexually - he doesn't believe I'm with him for the right reasons - but that's BS, I am there for the right reasons but apparently I'm not showing that in my actions and I don't know what I'm doing wrong, honestly - have tried to figure out why he would think this and I can't put my finger on anything.

Looking forward to your future post(s).

Maybe I could hire you as my shrink...what do you charge per hour? :smthumbup:


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

credamdóchasgra said:


> It's not about whether it's free. I understand it sufficiently for my own satisfaction:
> 
> it was playing cards.
> He has a weird anti bias against 3 things:
> 1. Things his parents did (play cards on Friday nights with friends)
> 2. Things that he thinks "waste time."
> 3. Things that my family loves to do together
> 
> he's kind of judgmental about things that weren't "his idea."
> plus he thought I was nagging, because I repeated myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unfortunately a lot of men HATE IT when we repeat ourselves. I have this problem too and have diligently worked on it and am much better. We do this because we don't think WE'RE BEING HEARD, so we continue to repeat ourselves until we feel that the person we're talking to really HEARD us.

And remember, while his anti-bias might be "weird" to you, it's perfectly normal to him. Sometimes we have to accept those things we don't understand/agree with, simply because they are not that big of deal in the scheme of things.

Do you really want to ever start or be in the middle of a disagreement about the fact that his parents used to play cards on Friday night?

I know its hard, and I've been there - but quit obsessing about those things that aren't within your control and those things that you don't own. While what happens in our past molds our future behavior, let go of those things that aren't deal breakers. Put them in his "weird habits" column and carry on - we all have them.


----------



## MEM2020

MWIL,
I hate ultimatums also. I only go there after exhausting every other option. 

How "different" is your H's "overall" behavior now when you compare it to what it was like before the TMI? 




MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Thanks - I am trying and have seen small nuggets of positive behavior from him in response.
> 
> The one I have extreme difficulty with is acceptable behaviors and consequences when they aren't met. I'm terrible at issuing ultimatums and following them through and unfortunately, he knows it. His medical issues don't help - he knows perfectly well that I'm not the type of person to abandon somewho who is sick.
> 
> He, for some reason, doesn't believe I love him and am only staying with him because I feel sorry for him because he's sick, but that's actually not true. I wouldn't stay with anyone because I felt sorry for them - I truly love this man and don't know what I'm doing wrong that he believes that I don't love him - maybe this is the root of the problems sexually - he doesn't believe I'm with him for the right reasons - but that's BS, I am there for the right reasons but apparently I'm not showing that in my actions and I don't know what I'm doing wrong, honestly - have tried to figure out why he would think this and I can't put my finger on anything.
> 
> Looking forward to your future post(s).
> 
> Maybe I could hire you as my shrink...what do you charge per hour? :smthumbup:


----------



## bluesky

I am a man, and the warmer one. She is cooler.

2.	Typically initiate calls/texts/emails when apart/one or both are at work
3.	Make “peace” after a fight even when your partner clearly wronged you 
4.	Walk around visibly angry/VERY angry after a fight (this comes across as “I am furious that you – the person I LOVE SO MUCH – is doing x,y,z to ME
6.	Are mostly/always initiating physical contact (hugs, kisses, touches, groping)
7.	When anxious you initiate “talks” about the R, typically to “fix” them/their behavior 
8.	Do MORE, sometimes WAY MORE than your fair share of housework
9.	Put their needs ahead of yours whenever there is a priority conflict
10.	Are constantly seeking their approval
11.	Show anxiety or fear when they are angry/frustrated with you
12.	Initiate sex when their body language radiates a “lack” of interest/desire, pout/sulk get angry when they tactfully decline sex

The COOL partner wants less warmth so they:
1.	React irritably/with hostility to HOT behaviors such as:
a.	Discussions about the R
b.	Requests for sex. An irritated “NO” when asked for sex is an attempt to throw a bucket of ice water on a painfully overheated moment

I have shown the applicable ones above.
I think this dynamic is even worse when the MAN is the warmer one. 
At this point, after so many years.....I don't know if I want to even change it.
It is useful for a future relationship however.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Unfortunately a lot of men HATE IT when we repeat ourselves. I have this problem too and have diligently worked on it and am much better. We do this because we don't think WE'RE BEING HEARD, so we continue to repeat ourselves until we feel that the person we're talking to really HEARD us.
> 
> And remember, while his anti-bias might be "weird" to you, it's perfectly normal to him. Sometimes we have to accept those things we don't understand/agree with, simply because they are not that big of deal in the scheme of things.
> 
> Do you really want to ever start or be in the middle of a disagreement about the fact that his parents used to play cards on Friday night?
> 
> I know its hard, and I've been there - but quit obsessing about those things that aren't within your control and those things that you don't own. While what happens in our past molds our future behavior, let go of those things that aren't deal breakers. Put them in his "weird habits" column and carry on - we all have them.


All of what you say is true.
AND...
1. A simple "sure" or "I see what you mean" or "I see yiur point" would SHUT ME UP.
NOT an unreasonable request.

Goal in counseling tomorrow:
how can we *both* have opinions at the same time, and it is not a "competition"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Why not steadily ease up - lower the temperature. I bet she would really like that. 

When she asks you "why didn't you" - call/text/email - etc? 

Why didn't you ....,.... - that you usually do the answer is:

"Oh - I got busy doing X" - said in a friendly way. 

You are NOT angry you are just not "chasing/crowding". 

If she gets cranky with you about the change in behavior, often the best answer is: "If you wanted X, why didn't you call/text/email .... me"?

The next squabble you have that clearly is NOT your fault. Don't apologize. You don't need to demand SHE apologize. But stop encouraging her to treat you like this.






bluesky said:


> I am a man, and the warmer one. She is cooler.
> 
> 2.	Typically initiate calls/texts/emails when apart/one or both are at work
> 3.	Make “peace” after a fight even when your partner clearly wronged you
> 4.	Walk around visibly angry/VERY angry after a fight (this comes across as “I am furious that you – the person I LOVE SO MUCH – is doing x,y,z to ME
> 6.	Are mostly/always initiating physical contact (hugs, kisses, touches, groping)
> 7.	When anxious you initiate “talks” about the R, typically to “fix” them/their behavior
> 8.	Do MORE, sometimes WAY MORE than your fair share of housework
> 9.	Put their needs ahead of yours whenever there is a priority conflict
> 10.	Are constantly seeking their approval
> 11.	Show anxiety or fear when they are angry/frustrated with you
> 12.	Initiate sex when their body language radiates a “lack” of interest/desire, pout/sulk get angry when they tactfully decline sex
> 
> The COOL partner wants less warmth so they:
> 1.	React irritably/with hostility to HOT behaviors such as:
> a.	Discussions about the R
> b.	Requests for sex. An irritated “NO” when asked for sex is an attempt to throw a bucket of ice water on a painfully overheated moment
> 
> I have shown the applicable ones above.
> I think this dynamic is even worse when the MAN is the warmer one.
> At this point, after so many years.....I don't know if I want to even change it.
> It is useful for a future relationship however.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

credamdóchasgra said:


> I don't think he is angry that I'm not working.
> I'm finishing a degree and defending in March, and I offered to work part-time (I had 2 opportunities), but maybe he resents it under the surface and doesn't even realize it.
> He prides himself on being so supportive of me while I take a year off to finish my degree, and I know he's stressed about the inconsistency of his employment (free-lance IT support).
> He's never made me feel bad about it.
> Since the whole "provider" thing is important to him, I could see how it plays a role in his stress.
> ---but isn't it an example of "taking it out on me" to get all irate with me in our conversations?
> I'd much rather he TELL me he's resentful of carrying all the $ responsibility; I could understand.
> Instead, he just snaps over other things and tells me I'm the problem.
> And I'm sick of him getting away with losing his temper over small things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is losing his temper because this is the only way he knows how to handle the "emotions" within him as he is a man and we all know, generally, that they suck at displaying their feelings/emotions. While the issues are small to you - they might be gigantic to him. Different strokes - he's not you, he's him.

It's evident that he's not going to TELL YOU that he's resentful. Since you know this, ignore anything that comes out of that frustration and inability to express himself. 

Since my husband's brain injury, his thought process, memory and some cognitive processes do not work right. Since I now know this and have been through extensive counselling and support groups to understand that things don't "fire right" inside his head, it's a lot easier to accept some behavior that while considered "not normal" in a marriage where there are no health issues, it's a "new normal" in my house. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it just is what it is. I've learned skills on how to deal with it and not engage in the issue, knowing that, for the most part, it's beyond his control.

Quit ENGAGING - if he loses his temper - walk away - it doesn't matter who is right/wrong, doesn't matter if it's over something small - just walk away - DISENGAGE - if you can't become a solution to the problem, don't become part of the problem. You become part of the problem when you ENGAGE when he loses his temper. If you just stayed calm, walked away and did not engage him in an argument, then this would indicate to him that this type of behavior "isn't working with you." When things don't work, we usually move on to something else.

My husband has also had temper issues since his brain injury. I used to take them personally - then, after extensive counselling realized that it's not personal - I just happen to be the person that is the closest to him and so I become the target - when it's really not about me. It's about his frustration and anger about what's happened to him. He is in a weekly anger management group and this has helped tremendously - maybe your husband could find a "free" group to deal with some of his issues - free groups are everywhere, you just have to find them.

I've read a lot of your posts throughout TAM and a common thread I find is that you both keep butting heads and trying to control each other and want to win in every single disagreement. Someone has to step back, doesn't make you less of a person or mean that your opinions/wants/needs don't matter, but someone has to disengage or you're going to keep going round and round and round and get nowhere, just like a gerbil on a wheel.

Why don't YOU be the person who disengages?


----------



## credamdóchasgra

MWIL, you're right that we're butting heads. 
But I'm afraid of setting this precedent:

he gets to the point where he loses his temper, yelling at me to shut up and get off his case already.
So I walk away. Disengage.
The lesson is: "if I yell at her to shut up and get off my case, she will. She will shrink away under my intimidating, inappropriate outburst. It worked."
me shutting up and shrinking away IS what he wants.
I don't want a pattern where he can shout me into silence. THAT'S what's not working for me.

Instead, things need to be caught and calm down before they hit that point, before he loses his cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## freeboro

This is exactly whats going on in my life right now. I'm the HOT one. Has the link been posted regarding how to counteract this?


----------



## MEM2020

Free,
What would happen if you simply began to make some minor alterations to your typical behavior:
1. Stop saying "ILY" first. Just stop doing it. For instance if you always say it when you leave the house in the morning you replace it with something friendly but less "hot". A simple "see you later" in an upbeat voice. That way you aren't leaving without saying "goodbye" you are just cooling the room a bit. In fact in every case where you currently say "ILY" first, replace it with something polite/but less "hot". And when your partner says it to you - just respond with "me to" or "love you too". 
2. Stop initiating communication during the day. And please don't keep doing it while telling yourself you had a "valid" excuse. It is very rare that some question/discussion cannot wait until tonight. When your partner reaches out to you be friendly but keep the interaction brief. If he/she sends you a text - you can reply but keep it short and/or funny/playful. But don't flirt - let him/her make things sexual with you.
3. Pick one night a week to do something for you. The gym is best. Cards with your friends is fine. Going to a bar - is not good. 
4. Do NOT do a lot more than your fair share of housework/cooking/errands. If you are, start making specific requests of your partner: Can you give me a hand cleaning the kitchen/folding the laundry/etc.
5. Ease up a bit on giving hugs - you don't have to stop - but ease up. Let them hug you/touch you. 

Make an effort to be in a good mood when together. And be playful - a little banter/teasing (not about sensitive subjects like weight) is good. And if it turns into a game of chase/tag/or even better a wrestling match over the remote control - that is good. But let your partner meet you halfway on that. 

When your partner 'challenges' you on this - do not explain and do not get defensive. 
Them: Why didn't you call me today?
You: What?
Them: You usually call.
You: Work was really busy. 
Them: Irritated - oh
You: I was thinking we might want to upgrade your cell phone plan?
Them: What?
You: So you can make "outbound" calls/texts when you want to get in touch with me
Them: Very funny
You: Quietly smiling




freeboro said:


> This is exactly whats going on in my life right now. I'm the HOT one. Has the link been posted regarding how to counteract this?


----------



## MEM2020

Two more things on you being less "hot" which is making her feel "crowded" which sadly is making her love you LESS. 
1. Talking about the relationship when YOU are initiating the talk. STOP doing that. If she brings it up you can listen and ask questions. But don't prolong it. Listen ask questions - and if she says stuff that is unfair/wrong about you just say "I hear you and I also disagree". Don't justify and don't explain. Just state your opinion.
2. Radiating a sexual vibe at her when she clearly does not want that. If she is tired/down/anxious or just plain showing no interest do not grope, leer, stare, make comments. In fact stop complimenting her appearance at all. UNLESS she asks. If she asks "do I look good/does this outfit look good" - just say "yes". Do NOT say "you look hot". 





freeboro said:


> This is exactly whats going on in my life right now. I'm the HOT one. Has the link been posted regarding how to counteract this?


----------



## This is me

I can see the wisdom in this, but some of it seems to go against the repairing methods that are encouraged by the Mort Fertel's emails. One specifically does encourage things that one spouse can do to repair which includes touching and complimenting.

Thoughts?


----------



## This is me

This is me said:


> I can see the wisdom in this, but some of it seems to go against the repairing methods that are encouraged by the Mort Fertel's emails. One specifically does encourage things that one spouse can do to repair which includes touching and complimenting.
> 
> Thoughts?


From one of Mort Fertel's emails:

"failed marriages eventually 
succeed because at least one spouse commits to 
doing SMALL THINGS in great ways over an extended 
period of time. 

Do you want REAL change in your marriage? Then 
establish the RIGHT HABITS and do them 
CONSISTENTLY. Talk and touch everyday, for 
example....."

This seems to be contrary to the thinking of what a warm partner should be doing to the cold one.


----------



## MEM2020

Let me summarize what Mort is suggesting:
- Try harder
- Be nicer/kinder/more considerate

If you are the "cool" partner it works like magic. Because maybe your "warmer/hot" partner is in the process of giving up. OR if you are the warm but clumsy partner who is always forgetting stuff, always giving them the type of gift they have told you they don't like - it can help. 

In a relationship where the "hot" partner has already been doing WAY MORE than their cooler partner, what Mort suggests simply makes the problem worse. Because at "core" the hot/cool interaction really means this:
Hot: I love you more than you love me. I NEED you to love me more than you do. 
Hot: YOU are more important than I am. You deserve a better partner than me, so I will try to make up for being the inferior partner by making more/much more effort than you do.
Cool: I feel smothered. WHY are you always crowding me? I don't really feel like saying ILY 5 times a day, but since YOU say it to me, I am pressured into responding in kind. BUT I DON'T WANT TO. 
Cool: The LAST thing in the world I want to do is have sex with you. I ALREADY feel smothered, and sex just amplifies that. And in general your clingy/constant presence irritates me and is a HUGE turnoff. 

Given that context:
The WORST thing the hot partner can do is get angry and act like a jerk. Because the cool partner sees that for what it is, the fury of rejection. 

The two things that produce the best outcome for the hot partner are to be:
- More attractive (go to the gym, work on your conversational skills, learn how to more effectively deal with conflict) AND
- Less available

And a big part of combining those two things is being fun/playful while ALSO being less "loving" in the 5 love languages. 



This is me said:


> From one of Mort Fertel's emails:
> 
> "failed marriages eventually
> succeed because at least one spouse commits to
> doing SMALL THINGS in great ways over an extended
> period of time.
> 
> Do you want REAL change in your marriage? Then
> establish the RIGHT HABITS and do them
> CONSISTENTLY. Talk and touch everyday, for
> example....."
> 
> This seems to be contrary to the thinking of what a warm partner should be doing to the cold one.


----------



## alphaomega

MEM,

Need some clarification. 

1. Say you approached your SO for intimacy, and she said...I'm too tired tonight babe. I will get you tomorrow. and you agree, because she did look tired.
Tomorrow comes, and you give her one of those 7 second kisses, and nod towards the bed, then she says...no way! It's 11 pm. 
And this after she finished watching 2 hours of those 30 minute celebrity news shows.

Ok. Bare with me...these all tie together...

2. So I turn down the temp. For a long time. Thinking maybe she's cold and I'm smothering. Although NOW I realized it was a fitness test; this was still pre separation days. Except my lower thermometer didn't work at all. 

So, my question is how long do you wait? I mean, there's only so long a high temp person can go cold before they reach absolute zero and just check out. 

I also don't get the part about NEVER talking about the relationship. I mean, there has to come a point where you just have do bring up the fact that needs aren't being met, etc? Waiting too long seems self destructive for the marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

In that specific scenario you deal with it in the moment:
Babe, you chose to watch 2 hours of tv just now. It is not my responsibility to manage your sleep schedule. When you commit to connecting with me I expect you to manage your schedule in a way consistent with your commitment. 

Now at that point you are going to learn something really important. Does she RESPECT you? If she does she admits she is in the wrong and either gets undressed or SWEARS tomorrow she will rock your world. And then tomorrow she does. 

If those things don't happen you turn the temp down in areas that are important to HER. And you start thinking about Plan B, because this is no way to go through life. 

And intermingled with all this - you consistently pass her fitness tests because your W was giving you a steady stream of them.





alphaomega said:


> MEM,
> 
> Need some clarification.
> 
> 1. Say you approached your SO for intimacy, and she said...I'm too tired tonight babe. I will get you tomorrow. and you agree, because she did look tired.
> Tomorrow comes, and you give her one of those 7 second kisses, and nod towards the bed, then she says...no way! It's 11 pm.
> And this after she finished watching 2 hours of those 30 minute celebrity news shows.
> 
> Ok. Bare with me...these all tie together...
> 
> 2. So I turn down the temp. For a long time. Thinking maybe she's cold and I'm smothering. Although NOW I realized it was a fitness test; this was still pre separation days. Except my lower thermometer didn't work at all.
> 
> So, my question is how long do you wait? I mean, there's only so long a high temp person can go cold before they reach absolute zero and just check out.
> 
> I also don't get the part about NEVER talking about the relationship. I mean, there has to come a point where you just have do bring up the fact that needs aren't being met, etc? Waiting too long seems self destructive for the marriage.


----------



## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> Let me summarize what Mort is suggesting:
> - Try harder
> - Be nicer/kinder/more considerate
> 
> If you are the "cool" partner it works like magic. Because maybe your "warmer/hot" partner is in the process of giving up. OR if you are the warm but clumsy partner who is always forgetting stuff, always giving them the type of gift they have told you they don't like - it can help.
> 
> In a relationship where the "hot" partner has already been doing WAY MORE than their cooler partner, what Mort suggests simply makes the problem worse. Because at "core" the hot/cool interaction really means this:
> Hot: I love you more than you love me. I NEED you to love me more than you do.
> Hot: YOU are more important than I am. You deserve a better partner than me, so I will try to make up for being the inferior partner by making more/much more effort than you do.
> Cool: I feel smothered. WHY are you always crowding me? I don't really feel like saying ILY 5 times a day, but since YOU say it to me, I am pressured into responding in kind. BUT I DON'T WANT TO.
> Cool: The LAST thing in the world I want to do is have sex with you. I ALREADY feel smothered, and sex just amplifies that. And in general your clingy/constant presence irritates me and is a HUGE turnoff.
> 
> Given that context:
> The WORST thing the hot partner can do is get angry and act like a jerk. Because the cool partner sees that for what it is, the fury of rejection.
> 
> The two things that produce the best outcome for the hot partner are to be:
> - More attractive (go to the gym, work on your conversational skills, learn how to more effectively deal with conflict) AND
> - Less available
> 
> And a big part of combining those two things is being fun/playful while ALSO being less "loving" in the 5 love languages.


I do appreciate the feedback and advice. This is helpful.

Just so I am clear (being the hot one), as long as she is not rejecting me or giving negative signs of a certain approach, it should still be good to continue, Example: no resistence to spooning in the morning, so OK. No negative feedback to me calling her at work to just say Hi hows the day going, both suggested by Mort. 

At the same time, be less available outside those moments?

I have been working out for months and actually although 51 she recently told me I look like I am in my 30's. Nice compliment.


----------



## Kevan

alphaomega said:


> Say you approached your SO for intimacy, and she said...I'm too tired tonight babe. I will get you tomorrow. and you agree, because she did look tired.
> Tomorrow comes, and you give her one of those 7 second kisses, and nod towards the bed, then she says...no way! It's 11 pm....And this after she finished watching 2 hours of those 30 minute celebrity news shows.


She should have honored her commitment. But I wonder why you didn't express your intentions to follow up earlier in the evening? Her two-hour junk-TV marathon sounds like a fitness test. Either she planned to outwait you until she had an excuse to deny (that it was too late in the evening), or she wanted to see whether you were interested enough to even suggest interrupting her stupid show. 

Just a thought.


----------



## MEM2020

Great point. 

I will often say at 7/8 - see you in bed at 10 - with a smile. 

If she comes to bed later than that it is her responsibility not to come to bed tired/listless/etc. But I have never gone to the tv room and turned off the tv at 10 sharp. Actually I think she would be fine with that - it just isn't my style to do that naturally. It seems too controlling. 



ManagingEditor said:


> She should have honored her commitment. But I wonder why you didn't express your intentions to follow up earlier in the evening? Her two-hour junk-TV marathon sounds like a fitness test. Either she planned to outwait you until she had an excuse to deny (that it was too late in the evening), or she wanted to see whether you were interested enough to even suggest interrupting her stupid show.
> 
> Just a thought.


----------



## alphaomega

ManagingEditor said:


> She should have honored her commitment. But I wonder why you didn't express your intentions to follow up earlier in the evening? Her two-hour junk-TV marathon sounds like a fitness test. Either she planned to outwait you until she had an excuse to deny (that it was too late in the evening), or she wanted to see whether you were interested enough to even suggest interrupting her stupid show.
> 
> Just a thought.


No reason. I dont care for those shows...waste of time. So I usually would go downstairs and practice my guitar or violin. It just happened in that particular instance I finished up when her shows were done. So it would have been good timing if it worked out for me. But....no. Plus I failed the fitness test.


----------



## This is me

Mem

Did you ever post Changing the temp? If so where is it?


----------



## MEM2020

I do have a post on that somewhere. But the gist of it is very straightforward. Cut back in all the areas where you are "initiating" and she is not responding in a consistently positive way. 

So change from saying "ILY" every time you talk on the phone or leave the house to a friendly "talk to you later/see you later". 

If she says it - say it back. But stop going first. Same with hugs. If she is "letting" you hug her, cut way back. Way back. I hug my W alot. She loves it. It is obvious. No need to cut back. If however she seemed neutral on it, I would do a lot less of it. A LOT less. 

At the same time work on whatever your annoying habits are. Not kidding about that. You have some. Do NOT tell her you are working on them. Just DO IT. And be fun/playful with her. But less direct expressions of love. Hugs, saying ILY. Kisses. Spooning. If she is "tolerating it" you are doing too much. 

Go to the gym. Be around less. 



This is me said:


> Mem
> 
> Did you ever post Changing the temp? If so where is it?


----------



## This is me

Thanks Mem!

I see some similarities in changing the temp to the 180.


----------



## MEM2020

Hold on a second. 

In a 180 you are doing a total shutdown. Here you are being friendly, upbeat but much less overtly expressive of love. 




This is me said:


> Thanks Mem!
> 
> I see some similarities in changing the temp to the 180.


----------



## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> Hold on a second.
> 
> In a 180 you are doing a total shutdown. Here you are being friendly, upbeat but much less overtly expressive of love.


When you look at the list from the 180, it does allow for you to interact in a pleasant way. Not a complete shut down. #19 reads show her someone she would want to be around. 13 be cheerful.... etc.


----------



## This is me

MEM11363 said:


> I do have a post on that somewhere. But the gist of it is very straightforward. Cut back in all the areas where you are "initiating" and she is not responding in a consistently positive way.
> 
> So change from saying "ILY" every time you talk on the phone or leave the house to a friendly "talk to you later/see you later".
> 
> If she says it - say it back. But stop going first. Same with hugs. If she is "letting" you hug her, cut way back. Way back. I hug my W alot. She loves it. It is obvious. No need to cut back. If however she seemed neutral on it, I would do a lot less of it. A LOT less.
> 
> At the same time work on whatever your annoying habits are. Not kidding about that. You have some. Do NOT tell her you are working on them. Just DO IT. And be fun/playful with her. But less direct expressions of love. Hugs, saying ILY. Kisses. Spooning. If she is "tolerating it" you are doing too much.
> 
> Go to the gym. Be around less.



I was just rereading this and thought how bizarre it is to be in this situation and talking about not telling my wife I love her or hugging her. And this is not a critique of the thermostat at all, just pointing out what a rotten marriage mine became. 

Alway imagined I would get the same love I was giving just like Paul McCartney sang. This all makes me hope and pray I can someday find true love as it should be. Unconditional!!!


----------



## MEM2020

Women love their children unconditionally - not their male partners. This is not a critique - just a statement of fact. 

The average male does not behave well when given unconditional love by his partner - and yes yes YMMV.



This is me said:


> I was just rereading this and thought how bizarre it is to be in this situation and talking about not telling my wife I love her or hugging her. And this is not a critique of the thermostat at all, just pointing out what a rotten marriage mine became.
> 
> Alway imagined I would get the same love I was giving just like Paul McCartney sang. This all makes me hope and pray I can someday find true love as it should be. Unconditional!!!


----------



## This is me

Ymmv?


----------



## MEM2020

This: ymmv is the universal acknowledgement that every one
Has a somewhat different situation it means your mileage may
Vary. 




is me;330481]Ymmv?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> This: ymmv is the universal acknowledgement that every one
> Has a somewhat different situation it means your mileage may
> Vary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is me;330481]Ymmv?


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Oh for hells sake I will post this. Not every woman out there is testing.  Lock yourself in a cave and all you see is what you want to see. The shadows are your reality. Not all women do tests or other bu!!****. You find a way in every situation to see it as a test. How about you just see your wife as a woman? Life isn't that flippin complicated. Fitness tests, pokes and other bull$hit? This website is rife with that bile. Hey, here's an idea..... stop making that complex. You go on and on about tests. Sometimes it isn't a test. It is just a bad day and should be allowed and not defined as some sort of marriage barometer.


----------



## Deejo

You continue to miss the entire point of the exercise. It is exactly about seeing your wife as just a woman ... instead of a perfect woman.

By your own statements, your husband does not love you the way you want to be loved ... for years. You are the hotter partner in your relationship. You experience the same kind of frustration felt by many men that want to love their wives, the way you want to be loved. 

It's disheartening to read that you claim to understand this one day, and utterly dismiss it as crap the next.

Everything ISN'T a fitness test. This thread isn't even so much about fitness testing. The irony is ... this thread is for you.


----------



## Deejo

BlackSand said:


> I just want to love my wife and have her love me back.


You do this thing and use it as a gauge. If it becomes apparent the wife you love is perfectly comfortable without any demonstration or reciprocation of love that is meaningful to you, then it is time to consider if this is the person you want as a wife.


----------



## This is me

BlackSand said:


> Thanks MEM for your insight, very helpful for me being the hotter one. It just sucks. I am a loving, affectionate, playful person and I have to shut it down. My only fear, which probably a lot us hot spouses have, is that she will just love it and not respond at all. It just sucks, I want to be myself but instead I have to shove it all down and become more aloof. Why does as this have to be so complicated. I just want to love my wife and have her love me back.


I could have wrote this! I am with you 100%, extremely frustrating. Love is the root of the relationship and having to shut down the expressions of love just to keep it alive for the cold one.

Could this be the opposites attract (hot/cold) and we are just on the extremes of the temps?


----------



## This is me

Deejo said:


> You do this thing and use it as a gauge. If it becomes apparent the wife you love is perfectly comfortable without any demonstration or reciprocation of love that is meaningful to you, then it is time to consider if this is the person you want as a wife.


For me this is throwing away 17 years. I remember back to the days when she was the one asking me to say ILY and kiss her straight on the lips. The tables have completely flipped. How did that happen?


----------



## Deejo

This is me said:


> I could have wrote this! I am with you 100%, extremely frustrating. Love is the root of the relationship and having to shut down the expressions of love just to keep it alive for the cold one.
> 
> Could this be the opposites attract (hot/cold) and we are just on the extremes of the temps?


Depends. Is that where your relationship started?

Odds are there was a catalyst event. Either she came up to your temp to seal the deal, or your need to express love exceeded hers as the relationship progressed. Something in your relationship dynamic shifted, thus shifting her level of engagement, interest in, or attraction to you.


----------



## Deejo

This is me said:


> For me this is throwing away 17 years. I remember back to the days when she was the one asking me to say ILY and kiss her straight on the lips. The tables have completely flipped. How did that happen?


You over-delivered and/or under-performed. When is the last time your spouse articulated what she 'needs' from you? 

This generally comes about because somehow you feel your spouse slipping away and thus pursue her more ... only to have her pull away even further.

Or ...

You haven't been paying attention to what she has been telling you she needs from her partner. In other words, you haven't been a great husband.

I'm not accusing of one or the other, but those scenarios are generally where the cycle begins.


----------



## Deejo

This is me said:


> For me this is throwing away 17 years. I remember back to the days when she was the one asking me to say ILY and kiss her straight on the lips. The tables have completely flipped. How did that happen?


You want things to change? She needs to believe that you are willing to let it go. If she thinks you aren't going anywhere ... why would or should she need to think about her behavior?

This is why the change engine needs to be you. If you expect it to be her ... nothing at all will happen.


----------



## AFEH

BlackSand said:


> I freely admit to being too sensitive, impatient, etc. for most of my 20 year marriage, so I accept blame where blame is due. I am trying to be an emotional rock but the rejection is still painful. If I withdraw a lot, my wife will see it as me being manipulative and trying to punish her. My wife blames my mother for not giving me enough affection when I was a child. Great, just great.







BlackSand said:


> I worry I will reach a place that in order to cope, I just won't even care about her anymore.


I think it’s at this point when we begin to turn our love for our wife off. By giving our love, help, support etc. not only aren’t we getting anything positive back we get a whole bundle of pain as well. It’s a double whammy. It is the beginning of the end.


----------



## This is me

Deejo said:


> You over-delivered and/or under-performed. When is the last time your spouse articulated what she 'needs' from you?
> 
> This generally comes about because somehow you feel your spouse slipping away and thus pursue her more ... only to have her pull away even further.
> 
> Or ...
> 
> You haven't been paying attention to what she has been telling you she needs from her partner. In other words, you haven't been a great husband.
> 
> I'm not accusing of one or the other, but those scenarios are generally where the cycle begins.



I think you are on it here. Some of what you said seems to be what has been said and where she is at now. She does not communicate well and I likely do not listen well or pick-up on the signs. She told our MC she was giving me signs, and the MC told her that I am not a mind reader. 

The big question is what needs does she have and how can I get her to communicate them to me, so I can understand. She is likely telling everyone but me.


----------



## This is me

Deejo said:


> You want things to change? She needs to believe that you are willing to let it go. If she thinks you aren't going anywhere ... why would or should she need to think about her behavior?
> 
> This is why the change engine needs to be you. If you expect it to be her ... nothing at all will happen.


I have started the 180 this week as stated in other threads. Funny how she wanted to do lunch yesterday and spoon this morning, after I started. Two things she would not have done in months. 

Question is what is the balancing act of when to respond and when not to respond to her acts of initiation to make this a good change?


----------



## AFEH

This is me said:


> I have started the 180 this week as stated in other threads. Funny how she wanted to do lunch yesterday and spoon this morning, after I started. Two things she would not have done in months.
> 
> Question is what is the balancing act of when to respond and when not to respond to her acts of initiation to make this a good change?


You keep doing the 180 until you are certain your are not your wife's Plan B and that you are her Plan A.


----------



## This is me

Deejo said:


> Depends. Is that where your relationship started?
> 
> Odds are there was a catalyst event. Either she came up to your temp to seal the deal, or your need to express love exceeded hers as the relationship progressed. Something in your relationship dynamic shifted, thus shifting her level of engagement, interest in, or attraction to you.


Your words here hit the mark. Before she called for divorce and I started to pick-up on the signs she had changed her role, I directely used the words that "she was not engaged in our marriage" and asked her why. I never got an answer that registered. Now she has very little attraction to me. She would prefer not to have sex, but has. No interest in anything but letting me get some. Does not feel the way it should.

In another thread I talk about this guy she works with that came into the picture last year, who I know she does lunch and coffee with regularly. I am not blaming him as the reason things changed, but she is definitely interested in him by what I have learned. Much taller, over 10 years younger, ex pro-baseball player. She still emails him to do lunch even while we are going to a MC. This will be addressed next week.


----------



## This is me

AFEH said:


> You keep doing the 180 until you are certain your are not your wife's Plan B and that you are her Plan A.


How do I know if I am A or B?

Do I sound like an idiot or what??


----------



## This is me

BlackSand said:


> You should NEVER make comments such as "it has been too long" or treat it as a major event. Keep your cool!


Got it. I think I am understanding this better. I read the list several times a day to remind myself.


----------



## This is me

BlackSand said:


> We need to come up with a mantra for "nice" guys that we repeat everyday:
> 
> I will not be needy
> I will not be clingy
> I will be OK with or without this person
> My happiness does not depend on this person
> I can only be hurt by this person if I choose to
> etc.
> ...


This has been me and I am learning to turn down the heat. The thought of not being with her after all these years is a hard pill to swallow when thinking of being OK without, because that would be not only a painful process, but years of pain after. Not getting any younger.


----------



## AFEH

This is me said:


> How do I know if I am A or B?
> 
> Do I sound like an idiot or what??


You don’t sound like an idiot, I think you are doing well. I’ve read a little of your story re the coach at lunchtimes? And your wife talking about you and your marriage in negative terms to her sister? That could make the coach your wife’s Plan A and you her Plan B.

If that is the case then your wife will try and keep you on the hook as her Plan B BACKUP.

And it could be that she puts out “stuff” to you like spooning JUST TO KEEP YOU ONSIDE AS HER PLAN B!!! In case her Plan A coach doesn’t work out.

So if you are in 180 you don’t go there with reciprocation UNTIL YOU ARE CERTAIN YOU ARE HER PLAN A.

And of course you tell her that’s exactly what you are doing. In essence, getting on with your life until she’s made her mind up if you are her Plan A or not.


----------



## This is me

BlackSand said:


> I am right there with you brother. I am guilty of thinking I can't live without my spouse. I am working hard on changing that thinking. Living with this thought makes us weak and makes us put our spouse on a pedestal, which we should not do.


She certainly does not deserve to be on a pedestal. Just need to get my head straight, my courage up and hold true. I am with you!


----------



## This is me

AFEH said:


> You don’t sound like an idiot, I think you are doing well. I’ve read a little of your story re the coach at lunchtimes? And your wife talking about you and your marriage in negative terms to her sister? That could make the coach your wife’s Plan A and you her Plan B.
> 
> If that is the case then your wife will try and keep you on the hook as her Plan B BACKUP.
> 
> And it could be that she puts out “stuff” to you like spooning JUST TO KEEP YOU ONSIDE AS HER PLAN B!!! In case her Plan A coach doesn’t work out.
> 
> So if you are in 180 you don’t go there with reciprocation UNTIL YOU ARE CERTAIN YOU ARE HER PLAN A.
> 
> And of course you tell her that’s exactly what you are doing. In essence, getting on with your life until she’s made her mind up if you are her Plan A or not.



This is helpful. The talk will happen next week. Our MC said he would help me with how to approach this and like you point out, if I am not plan A, than time for me to make a change to my plan A.


----------



## Conrad

Wow - Quoted For Truth




Deejo said:


> You continue to miss the entire point of the exercise. It is exactly about seeing your wife as just a woman ... instead of a perfect woman.
> 
> By your own statements, your husband does not love you the way you want to be loved ... for years. You are the hotter partner in your relationship. You experience the same kind of frustration felt by many men that want to love their wives, the way you want to be loved.
> 
> It's disheartening to read that you claim to understand this one day, and utterly dismiss it as crap the next.
> 
> Everything ISN'T a fitness test. This thread isn't even so much about fitness testing. The irony is ... this thread is for you.


----------



## s0medude

Wow, what a great thread! Well, it's a great observation about "real" married life. Thanks for the suggestion MEM11363!

I'm hot and my wife is cool. So to make our marriage better (e.g. happier, more fulfilling, more satisfying, more passionate, etc etc), I need to cool down immediately, right? Is there a good guideline for how long I should try this approach? For the last couple of years, I have felt like I'm the only one who's trying to save this marriage. I go out of my way to do whatever it takes to make her realize that I'm a great guy and an even better husband. Why is that in order for us hot ones to win this game, that we have to be so cold with our SO? Why is it that if I cool down that she'll probably snap out of her coolness and come back to me?

I hate this game, but am going to give it a try. I might not play it to a tee, but can definitely give it a shot.

One thing that did happen for me recently. My wife & I have been fighting quite a bit, and she pissed me off really bad the other night. We then had to take my son to his tee-ball game, and I gave her the cold shoulder during the entire thing. I didn't talk to her unless she spoke to me, I didn't look at her, and I gave her no affection whatsoever (hand-holding, mild kisses, etc). I'll tell you that she kept trying to get my attention and then apologized later that night for being a jerk to me. We're still in a very bad rut, but after reading this I realized that this approach may work.

Just not sure how long or how hard I have to play the cold approach with her.


----------



## Sawney Beane

s0medude said:


> Just not sure how long or how hard I have to play the cold approach with her.


I supose that depends on whether 
a) she does all the psychological calculations and works out that you're "turning down the temperature" for MEM's reasons; or
b) thinks you're just an uncommunicative f*ckwit.


----------



## Erudite30

Deejo said:


> You do this thing and use it as a gauge. If it becomes apparent the wife you love is perfectly comfortable without any demonstration or reciprocation of love that is meaningful to you, then it is time to consider if this is the person you want as a wife.


Nice quote. If it is apparent that one is perfectly happy with a relationship that doesn't involve sexual (meaningful) demonstrations of love, are the only two options really reconsider marriage or an involuntary vow of celibacy?

On another note, what if the H and W are both the cool type, tending to run on the low side of the temp scale? Any good examples of how that might work?


----------



## MEM2020

Just curious - how often do you say "i love you" first? How often does she say it first? 

How often do you initiate physical contact? How often does she? 

Just as a point of reference. A temperature of zero means NOT doing things that are loving. 

This does NOT mean being a jerk, being deliberately inconsiderate or sarcastic. It is not the "presence" of bad behavior. Simply the total absence of loving behavior. 

If I did that, and it didn't cause my W acute distress, I would quickly and calmly file. Because I DO need a certain amount of love. I am not needy, but I have needs. And being with someone who is wholly indifferent to my love for them is not acceptable to me. That said, I/She only go into deep freeze mode with each other when we are in the midst of severe conflict which is thankfully rare. 

And when we come out of the deep freeze there is always a lot of heat right afterwards. Emotional and sexual. Normal stuff from what I have observed of standard human wiring. 

You might want to try some playful friction. I have a LOT of posts on different games my W and I play that escalate to a type of wrestling and that DOES turn her on. Turns her on A LOT. As does a mildly rough, dominant type of sex. She is not into leather or odd clothing/stuff like that. But she doesn't especially like soft gentle sex and I think she is very common in that regard. 







Erudite30 said:


> Nice quote. If it is apparent that one is perfectly happy with a relationship that doesn't involve sexual (meaningful) demonstrations of love, are the only two options really reconsider marriage or an involuntary vow of celibacy?
> 
> On another note, what if the H and W are both the cool type, tending to run on the low side of the temp scale? Any good examples of how that might work?


----------



## that_girl

Oh wow...I'm the warm one. he's the cold one.

Although he did say "I love you" last week (I haven't said it since he moved out 5 weeks ago). I was shocked.

He also apologized last week. Strange behaviour.


----------



## Erudite30

MEM11363 said:


> Just curious - how often do you say "i love you" first? How often does she say it first?
> 
> How often do you initiate physical contact? How often does she?
> 
> Just as a point of reference. A temperature of zero means NOT doing things that are loving.
> 
> This does NOT mean being a jerk, being deliberately inconsiderate or sarcastic. It is not the "presence" of bad behavior. Simply the total absence of loving behavior.
> 
> If I did that, and it didn't cause my W acute distress, I would quickly and calmly file. Because I DO need a certain amount of love. I am not needy, but I have needs. And being with someone who is wholly indifferent to my love for them is not acceptable to me. That said, I/She only go into deep freeze mode with each other when we are in the midst of severe conflict which is thankfully rare.
> 
> And when we come out of the deep freeze there is always a lot of heat right afterwards. Emotional and sexual. Normal stuff from what I have observed of standard human wiring.
> 
> You might want to try some playful friction. I have a LOT of posts on different games my W and I play that escalate to a type of wrestling and that DOES turn her on. Turns her on A LOT. As does a mildly rough, dominant type of sex. She is not into leather or odd clothing/stuff like that. But she doesn't especially like soft gentle sex and I think she is very common in that regard.


Playful friction sounds like the ticket here.

We both say the "I love you" line first about equally, with her probably initiating it more when in general conversation, such as on the phone, and myself initiating it more when I do something mischievous (cunning pranks, not crossing boundaries). I would say that we are not a temp of zero, rather a temp near 45 F (or approx 7 C), which is slightly higher than a refrigerator.

I definitely initiate physical contact more often, without doubt, but I consciously try to do so without any pressure to go further. A hug here, a slight brush of the hair there. If she responds, then great, if not, then I back off. I have even tried to not initiate touching her for a whole day to see if she will be motivated to demonstrate affection and take initiative. That usually fails to generate the desired outcome.

If and when we ever get to the point of sex... which at this point has not happened since early May, she likes very mild rough sex and generally expects that I will be dominant. I wish there was a lot of heat or passion after we come out of a deep freeze. It is more like, meh, let's try this sex thing and see how it goes. I like to please her and I try to elicit feedback so that I can make adjustments or improvements, but personally I don't think she knows herself well enough to provide decent feedback. How can the sex be "great" if someone doesn't want any?


----------



## MEM2020

True love means:
- I WANT to make you happy, largely because doing so makes ME happy
- I actively avoid doing things that make you unhappy because I feel bad when I cause you distress through my own actions or inaction
- I accept that to LOVE me, you have to respect me and that means I earn respect by (fill in the blank) and DEMAND respect when you are testing my strength of resolve and pushing my boundaries. 

When I say I LOVE you - it is truly a compound statement. It means I love WHO you are (your humor and intelligence, honesty and determination, courage and resourcefullness) AND I love how you TREAT me. 

If you are treating me poorly I stop saying ILY, because half of the statement is false. And love built on deception is destructive to both people.





Erudite30 said:


> Playful friction sounds like the ticket here.
> 
> We both say the "I love you" line first about equally, with her probably initiating it more when in general conversation, such as on the phone, and myself initiating it more when I do something mischievous (cunning pranks, not crossing boundaries). I would say that we are not a temp of zero, rather a temp near 45 F (or approx 7 C), which is slightly higher than a refrigerator.
> 
> I definitely initiate physical contact more often, without doubt, but I consciously try to do so without any pressure to go further. A hug here, a slight brush of the hair there. If she responds, then great, if not, then I back off. I have even tried to not initiate touching her for a whole day to see if she will be motivated to demonstrate affection and take initiative. That usually fails to generate the desired outcome.
> 
> If and when we ever get to the point of sex... which at this point has not happened since early May, she likes very mild rough sex and generally expects that I will be dominant. I wish there was a lot of heat or passion after we come out of a deep freeze. It is more like, meh, let's try this sex thing and see how it goes. I like to please her and I try to elicit feedback so that I can make adjustments or improvements, but personally I don't think she knows herself well enough to provide decent feedback. How can the sex be "great" if someone doesn't want any?


----------



## BigBadWolf

MEM11363 said:


> True love means:
> - I WANT to make you happy, largely because doing so makes ME happy
> - I actively avoid doing things that make you unhappy because I feel bad when I cause you distress through my own actions or inaction
> - I accept that to LOVE me, you have to respect me and that means I earn respect by (fill in the blank) and DEMAND respect when you are testing my strength of resolve and pushing my boundaries.
> 
> When I say I LOVE you - it is truly a compound statement. It means I love WHO you are (your humor and intelligence, honesty and determination, courage and resourcefullness) AND I love how you TREAT me.
> 
> If you are treating me poorly I stop saying ILY, because half of the statement is false. And love built on deception is destructive to both people.


MEM11363, very, very well said.


----------



## MEM2020

Wolf,
It took me a long time to figure this out. You are truly a high functioning "bad boy". Or a "bad boy" with no "dysfunction". Basically makes for the "ideal" H. Your W is very lucky. 




BigBadWolf said:


> MEM11363, very, very well said.


----------



## BigBadWolf

MEM11363 said:


> Wolf,
> It took me a long time to figure this out. You are truly a high functioning "bad boy". Or a "bad boy" with no "dysfunction". Basically makes for the "ideal" H. Your W is very lucky.


Years ago, I was poking fun concerning one of my wife's former "bad boy" boyfriends, she laughed at that assertion and proceeded to lay out a compelling case that without a doubt I was most notorious of all. :scratchhead:


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> True love means:
> - I WANT to make you happy, largely because doing so makes ME happy
> - I actively avoid doing things that make you unhappy because I feel bad when I cause you distress through my own actions or inaction
> - I accept that to LOVE me, you have to respect me and that means I earn respect by (fill in the blank) and DEMAND respect when you are testing my strength of resolve and pushing my boundaries.
> 
> When I say I LOVE you - it is truly a compound statement. It means I love WHO you are (your humor and intelligence, honesty and determination, courage and resourcefullness) AND I love how you TREAT me.
> 
> If you are treating me poorly I stop saying ILY, because half of the statement is false. And love built on deception is destructive to both people.


True Love?

At this point in time I’m more or less deciding that my stbxw “has my heart”. There’s a few reasons. The fact that I feel kind of empty where my heart should be being not the least of them. So I reckon she has it and took it with her.

If that’s true then I either need to grow and look after my own heart, or find another one to adopt! If I do the former, then I’ll be like one of those fish that can take care of themselves. I reckon I’m on the lookout for a new heart. This time it’ll be one that’s truly affectionate because I just love hugs and cuddles.


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

You're the prototypical alpha.

You love quite a bit more than the hugs and cuddles.


----------



## ItHappenedToMe

Mem's original post caught me off guard. I could see so much truth in it (I'm the hot one, and do see value in backing off because to not do so can be overwhelming to the recipient). 

But then, as I read the thread, it seems highly manipulative. One red flag are the thoughts on housework. One doesn't do it, and the other doesn't do it either, so what do you end up with...a huge mess? bugs? hoarding? And neither moving to a solution because they are being too stubborn?


----------



## Conrad

ItHappenedToMe said:


> Mem's original post caught me off guard. I could see so much truth in it (I'm the hot one, and do see value in backing off because to not do so can be overwhelming to the recipient).
> 
> But then, as I read the thread, it seems highly manipulative. One red flag are the thoughts on housework. One doesn't do it, and the other doesn't do it either, so what do you end up with...a huge mess? bugs? hoarding? And neither moving to a solution because they are being too stubborn?


Hire someone


----------



## ItHappenedToMe

Conrad said:


> Hire someone


LOL...treat the symptom and not the cause?


----------



## Conrad

ItHappenedToMe said:


> LOL...treat the symptom and not the cause?


Logical consequence. If either has a problem with that solution, negotiate. I'm certain it's more important to one of you.

You just have to figure out which.


----------



## WayTooAverage

This original post is excellent! I appreciate it and agree. I am the warmer part of the thermostat and my wife is the cooler one. I am afraid if I turned it off the rest of my life would be without affection, without sex, without anything. She's a very cold fish! I hate to say it but it's true!


----------



## Sawney Beane

WayTooAverage said:


> This original post is excellent! I appreciate it and agree. I am the warmer part of the thermostat and my wife is the cooler one. I am afraid if I turned it off the rest of my life would be without affection, without sex, without anything. She's a very cold fish! I hate to say it but it's true!


The ultimate idea of the thermostat is that in the final analysis it tells you you need to get out...


----------



## tseug

MEM11363 said:


> TG,
> Do NOT talk about your feelings about HER behavior even if she asks. Her behaviors are all:
> - respectful/disrespectful
> - acceptable/unacceptable
> - not ideal - followed by a brief/brief suggestion as to how you would prefer she handle that situation in the future
> 
> "You are better than that" is the adult version of parent/child guilt. Works like magic - if not overused.
> 
> When she asks "what is happening" just smile.


Can you clarrify: If my W did something that bothers me and I find unacceptable behaviour, how do I approach it by not talking about my feelings...so your saying don't act/get emotional, don't say how you feel, just tell her what she did that bothered you and how you would like her to act in the future?

P.S. Still learning the mens clubhouse stuff, great stuff


----------



## Conrad

tseug,

The key is to not even show anger or any emotion when addressing the situation. Total emotional control.


----------



## tiredandout

I sneaked a peak to this side, as this thread seems to have an interesting discussion going.

Reading it all through, however, I still don't know how to clearly define which of us — my husband or me — is truly playing the role of the hotter person.

I can see myself in a lot of the 'hot' behavior. I am naturally touchy, kind, as well as get very anxious when my husband is angry at me and am quick to accept blame to get over a fight. My husband shares some of these qualities though. He gets very upset if he feels I am not giving him the love he needs and he is generally the one to seem more 'clingy' in terms of keeping contact and spending time together. 

On the other hand, I am not good at talking about my feelings and he feels like I am distancing myself from him that way. This can at times make him so insecure that he starts to feel overly clingy — which makes me want to back off. At other times there are issues which I feel like he won't discuss with me — I feel like he is running away and I'm being pushy.

Basically we're just two bundles of quicksilver jumping up and down the scale? We are similar in character, which makes us great friends but then again a bad combination at times when we at the same time present our traits of being overly emotional and sensitive.


----------



## frizzo

I am new to this forum and have read this entire subject and its amazing how similar this is to my marriage. My wife is the cool one and i am the hot one, it used to be the other way around. I am going to try this method and see how it works out since I am out of ideas. One obvious question i do have is what if this doesnt work and she enjoys my aloofness and is thankful im finally leaving her alone? Does that mean its time to move on?


----------



## Thor

I am the hot one. I tried doing a 180 four years ago but it backfired with her seeing the temperature change as meaning I had checked out. So she checked out.

Dysfunctional relationships are so tricky to change!


----------



## frizzo

Ok, so i know this is an unlikely outcome and probably very specific to my relationship, but i turned my thermostat down for 2 days, and on the second day my wife came to me and initiated sex. Kind of surprising, but it worked. For the two days I was pleasant and kind, but stopped being loving and made no physical contact. Im going to continue this until i feel that she is back into the relationship 100%.


----------



## MEM2020

In an overall healthy relationship that is exactly how this should play out.

TE=frizzo;478699]Ok, so i know this is an unlikely outcome and probably very specific to my relationship, but i turned my thermostat down for 2 days, and on the second day my wife came to me and initiated sex. Kind of surprising, but it worked. For the two days I was pleasant and kind, but stopped being loving and made no physical contact. Im going to continue this until i feel that she is back into the relationship 100%.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SilverSiren

Mem- 
I believe your post would work for a warm husband/ cold wife. Sadly, I was a cold wife for a while and your suggestions would have helped me. My own self loathing was what brought around my change. Still trying to get hubby to stand up for himself.... more discovery to come...
Because men & women are not alike, my guess is that warm ladies with cold men need to take a different approach.


----------



## ffp20

I paid alot of attention to MEM and marriedinlove and what they suggested/tried. 4 weeks ago i started turning the heat down (im obviously the warm spouse).

i didnt say ily. if she said it i said "luv you too" or "you too". She was tired of my "smothering" with attention/affection. It got so bad for her that she couldnt stand me even touching/hold her at night in bed. So, i STOPPED showing physical attention/touch unless she initiated, at which point i reciprocated in kind. She complained i texted her and called her too much so i STOPPED that altogether. I stopped initiating kissing, i stopped all touch. I really made myself "less available" but i'd be there if i was needed. I wasnt mean though, i remained very cordial, talkative, and maintained my expressions of humor. 

Now at just over 4 weeks, i'd say it worked. within days she called ME at work, she comes up to me for hugs and really passionate kisses. She even asked why i'm now different toward her. I just said i needed to cool myself off a bit for her sake. She appreciated me saying that. Im trying hard to keep it up....


----------



## tseug

I thought my marriage after 8 yrs was in serious jeopardy of being over. I was directed to the men`s club and read the book no more mr. nice guy. I wondered how in the beginning how i was in control but until reading the book realized i changed and fell into the many characteristics of mr. nice guy. I stopped being the hot person and cooled down. I honestly noticed a change in my W within 2-3 days, I now go out at least 3 nights a week and do things for myself. I set boundaries within our marriage (from a situation that recently happened that lead me to think it might be over) and she was okay with it. So for now, 3 weeks into it, alot has improved. I stopped being a doormat (not meaning I`m being a **** now) and am more happy, which resulted in a better relationship so far. I know its early in, but if it doesn`t work out, I believe it wouldn`t have worked out if I didn`t man up...and it will help me in the future, with our without her since I will no longer be a doormat.


----------



## TheLostSheep

This post rocked my world. The thermostat idea just seems so spot on, but I seem to be in the opposite spot of most of the people on this thread; I am obviously the cold spouse and my wife is the hot one.

I love her, I really do, but when I'm deeply honest with myself, I don't feel like she is my equal. I've achieved a lot of professional success, hold a lot of interests/hobbies, enjoy a wide circle of friends and all in all feel like a pretty dynamic person.

She on the otherhand (at least from my POV), dislikes her job, is generally lazy (hates her body, won't work out // never does housework until she gets upset by how gross things are // etc.) and her world seems to revolve around me. She almost never goes out on her own and will rarely plan or initiate activities for us to do together - it's always me. I feel like I'm the center of her universe. I always thought I was a crazy person for disliking this but this thread really made me feel less alone.

My marriage really isn't terrible; generally we get along well, don't fight much and are reasonably affectionate. But we have basically stopped having sex. It's been 6 months and before that it was once a month at best. I often feel attacked for having professional ambition (long story and deep issue, but she feels - perhaps rightfully so - that my work is more important to me than her). This kind of stuff has obviously has put a strain on our relationship 

What I was hoping to get advice on is how to fix this situation if YOU are the cold one. I love my wife and I want to fix this situation, but I feel like if I suggested some of this stuff, she'd take serious offense. What I really want is for her to lose weight, develop some ambition and find interests that get her out of the house sometimes. But at this point I'd just take a little more distance. 

But again, as the COOL one in the relationship I feel like me suggesting her to COOL DOWN wouldn't really turn out well. 

Anyone have advice on how a COOL male married to a WARM woman can address this kind of dynamic?


----------



## Sawney Beane

TheLostSheep said:


> But again, as the COOL one in the relationship I feel like me suggesting her to COOL DOWN wouldn't really turn out well.
> 
> Anyone have advice on how a COOL male married to a WARM woman can address this kind of dynamic?


Whilst I see the warm / cool thing, it sounds more like you're bothered and she's apathetic. 

Is it the case that that the thermostat has allowed you to pinpoint the problem, but isn't necessarily the tool to fix it?


----------



## TheLostSheep

Sawney Beane said:


> Whilst I see the warm / cool thing, it sounds more like you're bothered and she's apathetic.
> 
> Is it the case that that the thermostat has allowed you to pinpoint the problem, but isn't necessarily the tool to fix it?


Sorry, I could see how it may seem like that, but no I would not say I'm bothered and she is apathetic. If anything, most days I'm probably more likely to just ignore the issue and kind of retreat into a video game or television show. She cares about the issues in our marriage and wants to fix them.

Small update - had a big chat with the W last night. We've decided to put a dedicated hour in our schedules twice a week where we do nothing but talk with each other about the relationship. I suggested MC, but she's always been very cool to that idea but at least this is us actively addressing the issue.

I saw on another thread in this forum that these kind of issues are often bred from festering resentment - I found this similarly enlightening to the temperature idea. I mentioned this to her and it was received well and sparked a good discussion.

I think a good bit of our weekly sessions could revolve around discussion our resentments. Any tips on how to keep positive momentum when we've decided to talk about our resentments of each other? Does anyone disagree that this is a good idea?


----------



## Enchantment

TheLostSheep said:


> Sorry, I could see how it may seem like that, but no I would not say I'm bothered and she is apathetic. If anything, most days I'm probably more likely to just ignore the issue and kind of retreat into a video game or television show. She cares about the issues in our marriage and wants to fix them.
> 
> Small update - had a big chat with the W last night. We've decided to put a dedicated hour in our schedules twice a week where we do nothing but talk with each other about the relationship. I suggested MC, but she's always been very cool to that idea but at least this is us actively addressing the issue.
> 
> I saw on another thread in this forum that these kind of issues are often bred from festering resentment - I found this similarly enlightening to the temperature idea. I mentioned this to her and it was received well and sparked a good discussion.
> 
> I think a good bit of our weekly sessions could revolve around discussion our resentments. Any tips on how to keep positive momentum when we've decided to talk about our resentments of each other? Does anyone disagree that this is a good idea?


If you are the much 'cooler' partner, you can help equalize the temperature in your relationship by becoming 'warmer' - by becoming more invested in your relationship and showing that to your spouse instead of always pulling away.

You might want to get the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and spend some time looking at the marriagebuilders.com web-site. It has an 'outline' and questionnaires of how you can go about determining what kinds of things fulfill you (called 'emotional needs') and want kinds of things don't (called 'love busters') that can aid you and your wife in your discussions.

Some articles from that site you may be interested in:

The Most Important Emotional Needs

Love Busters

Emotional Needs Questionnaire

Best wishes.


----------



## Sawney Beane

TheLostSheep said:


> Sorry, I could see how it may seem like that, but no I would not say I'm bothered and she is apathetic. If anything, most days I'm probably more likely to just ignore the issue and kind of retreat into a video game or television show. She cares about the issues in our marriage and wants to fix them.


OK, sorry. It just looked like you wanted to change something and she didn't. Based on what you've just said (and written above), you have the potential to take action, but can't be bothered, she wants things to happen but can't / won't make a move.

I'm not sure that the emotional thermostat quite describes this situation. Her smothering you doesn't seem to be coming from being over "hot" as much from having a basically empty (from her perspective) life, with only you in it.


> Small update - had a big chat with the W last night. We've decided to put a dedicated hour in our schedules twice a week where we do nothing but talk with each other about the relationship. I suggested MC, but she's always been very cool to that idea but at least this is us actively addressing the issue.


Communication ought to help, but beware the sort of discussions where all you do is reinforce your positions,.



> I saw on another thread in this forum that these kind of issues are often bred from festering resentment - I found this similarly enlightening to the temperature idea. I mentioned this to her and it was received well and sparked a good discussion.
> 
> I think a good bit of our weekly sessions could revolve around discussion our resentments. Any tips on how to keep positive momentum when we've decided to talk about our resentments of each other? Does anyone disagree that this is a good idea?


If you haven't seen it, have a read of this thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...like-newlyweds-heat-again-do-fugedabodit.html

Food for thought, if nothing else.


----------



## ltj7708

So this post hits me spot on right now. We just had a pretty big fight were she informed me that she was not sure if she was still in love with me. As the 'Hot' one in the marriage, I was really bothered. I have been doing a lot of reading and searching since then and I realize I need to change just as much, if not more, than she does. I have read NMMNG and am going to read Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. 

So I am really trying to 'cool off', but it is really difficult. I have not initiated any physical contact; I have not said I love you; I am trying to do things on my own; I am trying to be positive and upbeat...But I am having a real hard time with not having contact, or hearing her say I love you...I know that this is my insecurities and my "nice guy syndrome" getting to me...Any tips on how to make those voices stop?


----------



## Not Alone

Well I just stumbled onto this site and in particular this thread and it has described my marriage of late to a tee.
I am now trying to deal with a wife who has emotionally quit the marriage and thrown herself into her work and her relationship with her mother.
I tried the 180 techniques a few weeks ago and that made her even colder and accuse me of abandoning her! Perhaps somewhere in between (as these techniques seem to be) is a good approach.
My wife says she loves me and wants to work it out but does nothing to make it better. I did force the issue the other day and say she has to either go to a MC with me or seek professional help herself as her just being distant and no physical contact is not working for me at all and I cannot remain in that sort of relationship. My wife finds it hard to express emotions and even talk candidly about our problems and I am afraid I have let them go ignored for far too many years (as I am sure she has with problems she perceives with me)
We have been married 14 years and together 18, we have to wonderful children 8 & 4 which we both adore and are great parents to but this emotional abandonment is now affecting them as we now are sometimes arguing in front of them.
I am not looking for answers as I know each case is unique (although they all have much similarities) but to discuss it openly with people who have similar situations would be nice.


----------



## Po12345

1.	She will say she loves me, but never says she is in love with me. I find myself avoiding saying IAILWY because I don't want to feel hurt by the lack of similiar reply.
2.	I generally call or text first, but she does text or call me, usually if she needs something, hasn't for a long time just for 'no reason'.
3.	I'm always the one who is saying sorry, no matter what seems to happen. So scared to lose my marriage.
4.	She knows when I'm very upset, and in turn she ends up getting upset with me, even if I'm trying to keep it to myself.5.	I apologize profusely and repeatedly when I do something wrong, for the same reason as (3).
6.	Wife initiates a hug or peck on the lips from time to time but hasn't initiated sex in a long time. 
7.	Anxiety causes me to want to talk about and fix things, she swears that nothing is wrong. I back off 
8.	She does housework but has backed off a lot since I picked up workload a year ago, I wasn't really doing my share, but now I'm doing about 75% of everything inside, and 100% outside. In her defense she is in school full time and working at home most nights doing transcription.
9.	Her needs come first, usually I'll do just about anything to be close to her, I can't seem to get away from doing that. 
10.	I don't even know what she approves of in terms of me sometimes, other than getting a thank you for housework or taking care of the kids specifically.
11.	I'm incredibly anxious and fearful when she is mad at me.
12.	I do get upset when she does not initiate sex, however it is deeper than that, it is just that the sexual contact is where the focal point can be seen. The lack of emotional attachment to me is what is the driving force behind my frustration with that, lack of intimacy.



> The COOL partner wants less warmth so they:
> 1.	React irritably/with hostility to HOT behaviors such as:
> a.	Discussions about the R
> b.	Requests for sex. An irritated “NO” when asked for sex is an attempt to throw a bucket of ice water on a painfully overheated moment
> 2.	Often behave more and more disrespectfully to their warmer partner and often steadily deprioritize both the partner and the R hoping to lower the temperature
> 3.	Provoke their partner to create conflict and space


Yes, except 2 isn't really like her, and 3 isn't at all, she's more likely to shy away from any sort of conflict.



> The Warm partner thinks they are repeatedly conveying “I LOVE YOU” with all this activity. The Cooler partner actually hears it as a question, repeated over and over ad nauseum: “Do YOU love ME”? Imagine if you replaced every loving act by literally asking “Do you love me”? How well do you think THAT would fly.


 Yes, this is pretty big, been trying to not care so much about it but again intimacy, or lack thereof, is tough.



> The core message this thermostat mismatch sends to the cooler partner is: I DON’T DESERVE YOU. And over time your behavior convinces them you are right.


If this is true, I have to really do some things differently.


----------



## MEM2020

Po,
It really is ok if she never initiates sex. It is fairly common. The big question is: how often do you initiate and how often does she reject you?

As for the apologizing thing. Try something different. When you weren't in the wrong, don't apologize. Keep communication minimal for the rest of the day and start tomorrow fresh as if nothing had happened. 

Why do you think she might leave you?




Po12345 said:


> 1.	She will say she loves me, but never says she is in love with me. I find myself avoiding saying IAILWY because I don't want to feel hurt by the lack of similiar reply.
> 2.	I generally call or text first, but she does text or call me, usually if she needs something, hasn't for a long time just for 'no reason'.
> 3.	I'm always the one who is saying sorry, no matter what seems to happen. So scared to lose my marriage.
> 4.	She knows when I'm very upset, and in turn she ends up getting upset with me, even if I'm trying to keep it to myself.5.	I apologize profusely and repeatedly when I do something wrong, for the same reason as (3).
> 6.	Wife initiates a hug or peck on the lips from time to time but hasn't initiated sex in a long time.
> 7.	Anxiety causes me to want to talk about and fix things, she swears that nothing is wrong. I back off
> 8.	She does housework but has backed off a lot since I picked up workload a year ago, I wasn't really doing my share, but now I'm doing about 75% of everything inside, and 100% outside. In her defense she is in school full time and working at home most nights doing transcription.
> 9.	Her needs come first, usually I'll do just about anything to be close to her, I can't seem to get away from doing that.
> 10.	I don't even know what she approves of in terms of me sometimes, other than getting a thank you for housework or taking care of the kids specifically.
> 11.	I'm incredibly anxious and fearful when she is mad at me.
> 12.	I do get upset when she does not initiate sex, however it is deeper than that, it is just that the sexual contact is where the focal point can be seen. The lack of emotional attachment to me is what is the driving force behind my frustration with that, lack of intimacy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, except 2 isn't really like her, and 3 isn't at all, she's more likely to shy away from any sort of conflict.
> 
> Yes, this is pretty big, been trying to not care so much about it but again intimacy, or lack thereof, is tough.
> 
> 
> If this is true, I have to really do some things differently.


----------



## Bluemoon1

Are we married to the same woman? :smthumbup:

Or is it more correct to say there is a very neat template at play here!

I am in the early days of this journey and I really don't know where it will go, but I know I will come out of the other side a better person!

Remember work on yourself, become the best man you can become, if you need to get fit lose weight, stop being needy.

I was in the same situation about the contact, she never bothered contacting me, I was forever sending her silly texts and calling her, that was the first thing I stopped doing, it's hard at first because we have been conditioned (mainly by women and well meaning men) that's what women want, on the fluffy bunny level of pink hearts and running off into the sunset, but on a biological level it just does not work.

I am doing my own thing, looking after myself and in the best tradition of Athol Kay I am destabilising the marriage on purpose, if it lasts and gets better good, but if it ends I will be in a much better position. 




Po12345 said:


> 1.	She will say she loves me, but never says she is in love with me. I find myself avoiding saying IAILWY because I don't want to feel hurt by the lack of similiar reply.
> 2.	I generally call or text first, but she does text or call me, usually if she needs something, hasn't for a long time just for 'no reason'.
> 3.	I'm always the one who is saying sorry, no matter what seems to happen. So scared to lose my marriage.
> 4.	She knows when I'm very upset, and in turn she ends up getting upset with me, even if I'm trying to keep it to myself.5.	I apologize profusely and repeatedly when I do something wrong, for the same reason as (3).
> 6.	Wife initiates a hug or peck on the lips from time to time but hasn't initiated sex in a long time.
> 7.	Anxiety causes me to want to talk about and fix things, she swears that nothing is wrong. I back off
> 8.	She does housework but has backed off a lot since I picked up workload a year ago, I wasn't really doing my share, but now I'm doing about 75% of everything inside, and 100% outside. In her defense she is in school full time and working at home most nights doing transcription.
> 9.	Her needs come first, usually I'll do just about anything to be close to her, I can't seem to get away from doing that.
> 10.	I don't even know what she approves of in terms of me sometimes, other than getting a thank you for housework or taking care of the kids specifically.
> 11.	I'm incredibly anxious and fearful when she is mad at me.
> 12.	I do get upset when she does not initiate sex, however it is deeper than that, it is just that the sexual contact is where the focal point can be seen. The lack of emotional attachment to me is what is the driving force behind my frustration with that, lack of intimacy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, except 2 isn't really like her, and 3 isn't at all, she's more likely to shy away from any sort of conflict.
> 
> Yes, this is pretty big, been trying to not care so much about it but again intimacy, or lack thereof, is tough.
> 
> 
> If this is true, I have to really do some things differently.


----------



## Po12345

Bluemoon1 said:


> Are we married to the same woman? :smthumbup:


Well, if we are then there is a whole new host of problems I'm going to be dealing with LOL



> Or is it more correct to say there is a very neat template at play here!
> 
> I am in the early days of this journey and I really don't know where it will go, but I know I will come out of the other side a better person!


This is where I'm at. At the beginning of this, a year ago in March, I kept thinking "I wish I could get back to being happy" but the idea of "I wish I could get back..." to anything is not the right way to approach this. I need to get better, that's it, that's all. A journey is never complete if you keep circling back around to where you were.



> Remember work on yourself, become the best man you can become, if you need to get fit lose weight, stop being needy.
> 
> I was in the same situation about the contact, she never bothered contacting me, I was forever sending her silly texts and calling her, that was the first thing I stopped doing, it's hard at first because we have been conditioned (mainly by women and well meaning men) that's what women want, on the fluffy bunny level of pink hearts and running off into the sunset, but on a biological level it just does not work.


My personality has always been quirky, the silly fun happy go lucky type guy. So when depression set in last year, and high anxiety (stress), I was not exactly prepared for it, and because my wife has anxiety/depression issues long term, leaning on her didn't help us both much. I think there was a period of time where, in some ways, she found comfort in the fact that I did love her enough that I would be hurt by the idea of us not being together, but she's really wanted me to get better so we can move beyond this. It is still VERY hard for me to NOT send her little texts, emails, a nice "hey you" phone call, for no reason other than to hear her voice and let her know I care.



> I am doing my own thing, looking after myself and in the best tradition of Athol Kay I am destabilising the marriage on purpose, if it lasts and gets better good, but if it ends I will be in a much better position.


I am not sure I follow the Athol Kay reference... I am trying now to just be a good husband and father, my attempts at a 180 are very difficult because I am a very giving and caring person, so the idea of laying in bed with my back to my wife, ignoring her, is quite foreign to me. But, it is a process, and I know that the 180 is designed not to just pull intimacy from someone who is taking advangage of you, but it is also designed to make you stronger by preparing you for what it would be like if you were NOT being intimate with this person, which of course is always a possibility.


----------



## Po12345

MEM11363 said:


> Po,
> It really is ok if she never initiates sex. It is fairly common. The big question is: how often do you initiate and how often does she reject you?


About half the time I initiate I get rejected, so a lot of times I take care of myself, if you know what I mean. I probably initiate 4 to 5 times a week and we actually have sex on average once every 4 or 5 days. So I would say most of the time I get rejected. But she also recognizes that I have a higher libido than she does, in her words "You are a twice a day kind of person, and I'm a twice a week". We have done some compromising, she likes when I take care of myself when I'm laying beside her, says it is a turn on, so about half the time I do that it ends up with us having sex. But being raised Catholic there is still that stigma about doing that in front of anyone else, the whole "shame" thing. So most of the time I handle things on my own, I do it in private. But when I do that, she says she feels like I don't find her attractive enough or something, which is frustrating. 



> As for the apologizing thing. Try something different. When you weren't in the wrong, don't apologize. Keep communication minimal for the rest of the day and start tomorrow fresh as if nothing had happened.


I have done this from time to time, I'll leave in the morning without much of a goodbye, then when I get home she seems far more communicative, especially if I walk in the door and don't say much, I can tell she gets concerned that something is wrong. But it is VERY difficult for me to work the 180 because of my personality, I love talking to her, I love her, she's my best friend. 



> Why do you think she might leave you?


She went to see an ex boyfriend a year ago, a guy that had totally screwed her over 12 years ago, they did not have sex but they were at his hotel talking for several hours, and she lied about it, then lied about the context of the event. I found out about it from a journal, after she said she wasn't sure she loved me or if she wanted to be with me, so I started snooping and found the journal. Scathing stuff written about me, and all of this banter going back and forth about this other guy, longing to be with him, then in the next journal post, cussing him out, then in the next one, chastising herself for even thinking about the other man. So she's incredibly conflicted, to the point that she actually put a pistol to her head when she got back from seeing him, she told me about that later.

To his credit he doesn't seem to be leading her on but he's still a piece of shxt, and apparently he's separating from his wife and is screwing around with at least one younger woman, maybe two. 

She tells me there is no way she would ever go to him, because of what he did to her, but then I see where she'll be searching him online all the time, pining over his pictures online, looking at his online personal pages at different social sites, like 5, 6, 7 or more times a day. That frustrates me greatly.


----------



## MEM2020

Po,
You need a very different type of help than an anonymous poster on the internet can provide. 

Your W is in love with someone else. Obssessed, thinking about how he will soon be divorced and maybe available. 

And you are allowing her to do this. 

This whole romantic love thing you have in your head: "I love her too much to enforce my boundaries" is going to end very badly for you. 

She loves you a lot LESS because you don't enforce boundaries. 





Po12345 said:


> About half the time I initiate I get rejected, so a lot of times I take care of myself, if you know what I mean. I probably initiate 4 to 5 times a week and we actually have sex on average once every 4 or 5 days. So I would say most of the time I get rejected. But she also recognizes that I have a higher libido than she does, in her words "You are a twice a day kind of person, and I'm a twice a week". We have done some compromising, she likes when I take care of myself when I'm laying beside her, says it is a turn on, so about half the time I do that it ends up with us having sex. But being raised Catholic there is still that stigma about doing that in front of anyone else, the whole "shame" thing. So most of the time I handle things on my own, I do it in private. But when I do that, she says she feels like I don't find her attractive enough or something, which is frustrating.
> 
> 
> 
> I have done this from time to time, I'll leave in the morning without much of a goodbye, then when I get home she seems far more communicative, especially if I walk in the door and don't say much, I can tell she gets concerned that something is wrong. But it is VERY difficult for me to work the 180 because of my personality, I love talking to her, I love her, she's my best friend.
> 
> 
> 
> She went to see an ex boyfriend a year ago, a guy that had totally screwed her over 12 years ago, they did not have sex but they were at his hotel talking for several hours, and she lied about it, then lied about the context of the event. I found out about it from a journal, after she said she wasn't sure she loved me or if she wanted to be with me, so I started snooping and found the journal. Scathing stuff written about me, and all of this banter going back and forth about this other guy, longing to be with him, then in the next journal post, cussing him out, then in the next one, chastising herself for even thinking about the other man. So she's incredibly conflicted, to the point that she actually put a pistol to her head when she got back from seeing him, she told me about that later.
> 
> To his credit he doesn't seem to be leading her on but he's still a piece of shxt, and apparently he's separating from his wife and is screwing around with at least one younger woman, maybe two.
> 
> She tells me there is no way she would ever go to him, because of what he did to her, but then I see where she'll be searching him online all the time, pining over his pictures online, looking at his online personal pages at different social sites, like 5, 6, 7 or more times a day. That frustrates me greatly.


----------



## Po12345

MEM11363 said:


> Po,
> You need a very different type of help than an anonymous poster on the internet can provide.
> 
> Your W is in love with someone else. Obssessed, thinking about how he will soon be divorced and maybe available.
> 
> And you are allowing her to do this.
> 
> This whole romantic love thing you have in your head: "I love her too much to enforce my boundaries" is going to end very badly for you.
> 
> She loves you a lot LESS because you don't enforce boundaries.


We have talked about it at greath length, she insists over and over that she's never going to him, that he "screwed me over", etc. They don't text/call one another, there is nothing sexual in the Facebook stuff, but yes this is a major problem. From time to time she has talked about how she's trying hard to get over him, she will delete him from Facebook, but then add him back later on. She always has some odd excuse about it too. I am not sure how deep a person can say this is in terms of an emotional affair as there is really no participation. The one incredibly WRONG thing that happened was them visiting one another.

I tried talking to her about it last night but the conversation got turned to something else, we were having a very good intimate conversation at dinner about some other issues so I didn't get it steered back to the other man, but it will, very shortly. I'm trying to work on what I'm going to say, because inevitably she first plays the ANGER card, says mean things to me, then she plays the MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T BE TOGETHER card, and finally breaks down crying with the I AM SUCH A BAD PERSON, I AM WORTHLESS card. 

I do NOT know why seemingly any conversation dealing with the deep issues that have hurt us ALWAYS seem to fall into this same spiraling argument, I try and defer, to deflect, to steer it back, and keep it sane and keep the emotions out of it as much as possible, but inevitably she gets all pissed off at me, and ends up turning my unhappiness into something I should apologize to HER for. 

Right now I'm working the 180 to build up my resilience and to show that I'm a strong MAN, and not some wimp who just allows his wife to love another man. The other man may have absolutely no idea how much she loves him, she may say that she would never ever go to him, she may even deny now that she does love him, but that doesn't make this any easier for me, to try and decide if this is worth the effort I am making to fix things.


----------



## MEM2020

The way to detach is to slowly and steadily spend less and less time together. At your current level of "attachment" you are completely unable to withstand a "face down". 

And a "face down" is:
Her: Maybe we should just break up
You: I agree
Her: (getting more aggressive) I really mean it
You: (firmly) Me too 
Her: Fine then maybe I should go pack now
You: (silent) because at this point further conversation is counter productive

But you are going to need a few months of steadily cutting back on time together and if it was me, I would completely stop initiating sex. You are letting her bully you. That isn't really about her, its about you. 




Po12345 said:


> We have talked about it at greath length, she insists over and over that she's never going to him, that he "screwed me over", etc. They don't text/call one another, there is nothing sexual in the Facebook stuff, but yes this is a major problem. From time to time she has talked about how she's trying hard to get over him, she will delete him from Facebook, but then add him back later on. She always has some odd excuse about it too. I am not sure how deep a person can say this is in terms of an emotional affair as there is really no participation. The one incredibly WRONG thing that happened was them visiting one another.
> 
> I tried talking to her about it last night but the conversation got turned to something else, we were having a very good intimate conversation at dinner about some other issues so I didn't get it steered back to the other man, but it will, very shortly. I'm trying to work on what I'm going to say, because inevitably she first plays the ANGER card, says mean things to me, then she plays the MAYBE WE SHOULDN'T BE TOGETHER card, and finally breaks down crying with the I AM SUCH A BAD PERSON, I AM WORTHLESS card.
> 
> I do NOT know why seemingly any conversation dealing with the deep issues that have hurt us ALWAYS seem to fall into this same spiraling argument, I try and defer, to deflect, to steer it back, and keep it sane and keep the emotions out of it as much as possible, but inevitably she gets all pissed off at me, and ends up turning my unhappiness into something I should apologize to HER for.
> 
> Right now I'm working the 180 to build up my resilience and to show that I'm a strong MAN, and not some wimp who just allows his wife to love another man. The other man may have absolutely no idea how much she loves him, she may say that she would never ever go to him, she may even deny now that she does love him, but that doesn't make this any easier for me, to try and decide if this is worth the effort I am making to fix things.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Po12345 said:


> She went to see an ex boyfriend a year ago, a guy that had totally screwed her over 12 years ago, they did not have sex but they were at his hotel talking for several hours, and she lied about it, then lied about the context of the event.


MEM is giving you some great advice, so follow it. I will only ask why you are so sure that they did not have sex. It is clear she lied about every other aspect of it, so why do you believe this? You really do need to detach.


----------



## Po12345

Tall Average Guy said:


> MEM is giving you some great advice, so follow it. I will only ask why you are so sure that they did not have sex. It is clear she lied about every other aspect of it, so why do you believe this? You really do need to detach.


I go off of the journal, she wrote some very personal and painful stuff in the journal, it seems to be the place where she went 100% honest about everything. And yes, I know, detaching, it is hard.

And to address the above post, this is my plan, and I think she knows it, that the next time she drops the "I'm leaving" card, I'm telling her to do so. I'm tired of that being used against me, it is incredibly mean and thoughtless.


----------



## MEM2020

Po,
I want you to picture that scene again and again in your head. She says "I am leaving". 

You don't get angry. You don't raise your voice. You don't say "good I want you to leave" - because that will sound angry. 

Instead you just reply with one word:
"Ok"

This signifies acceptance. Done well it represents indifference to her. It will produce the most effective response from her. 

She may flip out. If she does - get up and quietly leave the room. If she follows you, get your wallet and your phone and get in the car and go stay with a friend or at a hotel. Don't answer your phone when she calls. 

This is the only way to "break" this incredibly "her:aggressive/you:fearful and needy" pattern. 

Do NOT speak to her in any way when she freaks out. Do not engage. Just leave. NOTHING good will come from a conversation with her when she is melting down. It will make YOU look weak. Again. 





Po12345 said:


> I go off of the journal, she wrote some very personal and painful stuff in the journal, it seems to be the place where she went 100% honest about everything. And yes, I know, detaching, it is hard.
> 
> And to address the above post, this is my plan, and I think she knows it, that the next time she drops the "I'm leaving" card, I'm telling her to do so. I'm tired of that being used against me, it is incredibly mean and thoughtless.


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## Po12345

I drove off once and it made things significantly worse. However at the time I was VERY angry... and I had also said some things that were out of line. So perhaps that isn't the best indicator.


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## Drover

Not Alone said:


> Well I just stumbled onto this site and in particular this thread and it has described my marriage of late to a tee.
> I am now trying to deal with a wife who has emotionally quit the marriage and thrown herself into her work and her relationship with her mother.
> I tried the 180 techniques a few weeks ago and that made her even colder and accuse me of abandoning her! Perhaps somewhere in between (as these techniques seem to be) is a good approach.
> My wife says she loves me and wants to work it out but does nothing to make it better. I did force the issue the other day and say she has to either go to a MC with me or seek professional help herself as her just being distant and no physical contact is not working for me at all and I cannot remain in that sort of relationship. My wife finds it hard to express emotions and even talk candidly about our problems and I am afraid I have let them go ignored for far too many years (as I am sure she has with problems she perceives with me)
> We have been married 14 years and together 18, we have to wonderful children 8 & 4 which we both adore and are great parents to but this emotional abandonment is now affecting them as we now are sometimes arguing in front of them.
> I am not looking for answers as I know each case is unique (although they all have much similarities) but to discuss it openly with people who have similar situations would be nice.


I didn't see a response to this post, but it's similar to my situation. Wife checked out a long time ago, and when I tried something similar to a 180, I got the same response. She said I'm the one who checked out. And similarly she refuses to talk about our situation at all. Even when I talk in my calmest, most reasonable tones she acts like I'm attacking her.


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## okeydokie

i am on month 3 of turning down the temp but the situation was bad long before that. the only benefit i have seen is that the house is on cruise control. i dont have to speak with her much and for that i am already more calm day to day. we only speak about issues related to the kids and anything else having to do with the family. intimacy is gone and done, long discussions with no outcome are done and an ever increasing sense of freedom is creeping in. she would likely say the same thing so this isnt about one-upsmanship. it will be interesting to see how long we can stay in the same house.


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## thunderstruck

Interesting thread. I've somewhat done this a few times with my checked out W. In my case, with a W who suffers from severe depression/anxiety (and is possibly BPD), it mostly just puts her in a tailspin. I see that a few guys already mentioned it, but be cautious if you attempt this technique with an emotionally unhealthy spouse.


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## Drover

thunderstruck said:


> Interesting thread. I've somewhat done this a few times with my checked out W. In my case, with a W who suffers from severe depression/anxiety (and is possibly BPD), it mostly just puts her in a tailspin. I see that a few guys already mentioned it, but be cautious if you attempt this technique with an emotionally unhealthy spouse.


After a number of bouts with depression, my wife was recently diagnosed with BP after her first severe manic episode with psychosis. Fortunately she's now on treatment and got stable very quickly. Everyone says you have to create expectations for behavior regardless of her BP. But you also have to allow that the disorder and the medications she has to take will impact her behavior. As I said, the BP diagnosis is a recent thing for us (although her bad behavior isn't). How do you handle this stuff Thunderstruck?


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## thunderstruck

Drover said:


> How do you handle this stuff Thunderstruck?


My intro link is below.

It's tough, and that's an understatement. At least your W accepted pro help...mine won't. Tons of great advice at this forum...just keep in mind that in your case the normal rules may not apply.

I do agree with your statement about having expectations regardless of her emotional illness. I tried to walk on eggshells for years, and that worked for shyte. I learned how others deal with similar illnesses, what works, what doesn't work. Key is, of course, boundaries. Before I got smart on that, she ran all over me like a freight train.


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## Rogers

this is me and my partner right now. Im the hot one. It never used to be like that she was the hot one and would crack it if I didnt text her all morning whilst at work or said I never just phone her during the day unless were fighting. But now she wants space so she is the cold one and Im smothering her telling her I love her, doing the housework and anything else I can for her. So I know Ive got to stop doing all of that and hopefully she will come around.


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## Feelingdown

Very interesting read. Many of the warmer features describe me, and I guess the wife is definitely on the cooler side, though she doesn't really pick fights or say no to sex, but perhaps that's because it's still fairly early in our marriage?

Apologies if it's already been covered in the thread, but I've got a few questions.

1. If I become cooler will she become warmer as a result? Or will we both just become 'cool'? I don't think I'd like the latter...

2. If I become cooler in a noticeable way, might it not result in her thinking something is wrong?

3. I have, by my own initiative, tried to cool certain things down such as texting her or initiating kisses etc. But, I can't usually go long without reverting back to myself as she doesn't compensate for me cooling down right away... is sticking to it just a matter of will power or is there something to make it easier?


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## MEM2020

It is ok to be warmer. It is bad to crowd. It is easy to tell the difference:
- if your partner responds in a consistently happy, loving way to your overtures, keep doing them
- if they are neutral, or worse seem irritated, you should stop doing whatever it is that is causing their reaction

But here's the deal. If you think that the two of you should touch base by text 3 times a dsyb every day, and she does not, when you cut back to zero or one, she is not going to start chasing you.

And if you need that level of reassurance, go to IC


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## Feelingdown

I don't need her to text me everyday 3 times a day or while at work, infact I don't really do that myself anymore, though this was an issue before.

But when she's away (goes to stay with her mum as she has now for example) I do miss her and text her random stuff or at least to say goodnight. She on the other hand can barely be bothered to respond (usually one word replies) and rarely ever initiates a text and calls in a pattern of every 2 days, almost like a routine rather than any real desire to talk.

Now I don't take this personally, she's even worse with her friends in regards to this, and I also get that she's busy catching up with her family who she hardly ever see's anymore, but something to let me know she's thinking of me, even a goodnight text, would be nice, 

In terms of her response, I guess it switches between happy and neutral, which I guess suggests I should refrain or cut back from doing what I'm do?


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## MEM2020

The main driver isn't what happens during the infrequent visits to family. The main driver is what happens during the day to day when you are together. And generally if she is never initiating:
- touch
- time together
- compliments 

You will eventually end up in a bad place.


----------



## Rogers

So just wondering when trying to cool down what about things like kissing your partner goodnight, good bye, hello when you get home from work etc. Should you still do these things or stop them as well?


----------



## MEM2020

Advice without context is usually of poor quality. 

This is a high level overview of the spectrum. 

In general if your partner is often angry, irritable or cold to you, that could be a case of them feeling smothered. 

If they react with irritation/anger or coldness to your overtures, stop making those overtures. 




Rogers said:


> So just wondering when trying to cool down what about things like kissing your partner goodnight, good bye, hello when you get home from work etc. Should you still do these things or stop them as well?


----------



## In Absentia

Sorry, but this will only work if your wife is still interested and hasn't checked out. I see this 'game' as a way of establishing if your wife still cares about you to a certain extent, by becoming warmer towards you. If she doesn't, then you are screwed.

I did get cooler and my wife was actually happy. She didn't feel overcrowded and didn't mind much. I think the only thing she minded was the feeling of being rejected, in a way, but she is too selfish to do anything about it, so she just gets along with it. I'm sure she doesn't like the fact I checked out, but that is, again, a selfish thing, because she can't help but feeling guilty about it. 

What MEM doesn't mention is that your marriage must still be on track. If you feel the need of getting cooler, your marriage is already screwed, believe me. So, all in all a good way to check if your wife is still into it or not. But don't complain when you have the epiphany...


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## MEM2020

In Absentia,
Great point. 

The "premise" is that you are actually a good partner and that at least at some point in the past your partner loved you. If those two things are not BOTH true, than this approach is not going to improve your marriage. It may allow you to gradually learn to be independent but it won't improve your marriage. 




In Absentia said:


> Sorry, but this will only work if your wife is still interested and hasn't checked out. I see this 'game' as a way of establishing if your wife still cares about you to a certain extent, by becoming warmer towards you. If she doesn't, then you are screwed.
> 
> I did get cooler and my wife was actually happy. She didn't feel overcrowded and didn't mind much. I think the only thing she minded was the feeling of being rejected, in a way, but she is too selfish to do anything about it, so she just gets along with it. I'm sure she doesn't like the fact I checked out, but that is, again, a selfish thing, because she can't help but feeling guilty about it.
> 
> What MEM doesn't mention is that your marriage must still be on track. If you feel the need of getting cooler, your marriage is already screwed, believe me. So, all in all a good way to check if your wife is still into it or not. But don't complain when you have the epiphany...


----------



## In Absentia

MEM11363 said:


> In Absentia,
> Great point.
> 
> The "premise" is that you are actually a good partner and that at least at some point in the past your partner loved you. If those two things are not BOTH true, than this approach is not going to improve your marriage. It may allow you to gradually learn to be independent but it won't improve your marriage.


Did you say this in all your posts? You might have done, but these days I have the attention span of a gold fish. If you have, I apologise, if you haven't, I think it was worth pointing it out. Good job, anyway.


----------



## Feelingdown

MEM11363 said:


> The main driver isn't what happens during the infrequent visits to family. The main driver is what happens during the day to day when you are together. And generally if she is never initiating:
> - touch
> - time together
> - compliments
> 
> You will eventually end up in a bad place.


She does all of those things really, just not as frequently as I do or as frequently as she used to, except for time together which she still insists on.

Guess it's just more of a case of me being warmer than her so to speak, rather than her being cold, which is fine.

Thanks for the feedback MEM.


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## credamdóchasgra

MEM,
What's your take on this: when the typically warmer spouse (A) cools down in response to the typically cooler spouse's (B) poor behavior, and the cool spouse clearly doesn't like it--but shows that dislike by calling spouse A "passive aggressive!" ?

My husband has taken to calling me passive aggressive when he doesn't like that I am quiet and/or withdraw in the aftermath of an argument. I find this very unfair and inaccurate. I have a right to go into my head while things cool down for awhile, in fact it's probably somewhat healthy and definitely healthier than continuing a fight.


----------



## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> MEM,
> What's your take on this: when the typically warmer spouse (A) cools down in response to the typically cooler spouse's (B) poor behavior, and the cool spouse clearly doesn't like it--but shows that dislike by calling spouse A "passive aggressive!" ?
> 
> My husband has taken to calling me passive aggressive when he doesn't like that I am quiet and/or withdraw in the aftermath of an argument. I find this very unfair and inaccurate. I have a right to go into my head while things cool down for awhile, in fact it's probably somewhat healthy and definitely healthier than continuing a fight.


Surely that’s just bad conflict resolution skills between the two of you? When you withdraw it is known as stonewalling, which is one of the 'The Four Horseman' of marriage apocalypse http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/44442-negative-patterns-predict-divorce.html


Reckon you both need much better conflict resolution skills. Take a look at Alpha USA : Find Out More About the Course most especially …

_3. Resolving Conflict – In this session we look at how couples can increase their intimacy by expressing appreciation to each other, recognising their differences, learning to negotiate disagreements and praying for each other (if they feel comfortable doing so).
_

It sounds like neither of you have good models in your head re how to create a Happy and Healthy Marriage. If you attend the course you will for sure have a good model to work to in the future and you’ll both be on the same page. It sounds like you are both in love with each other, do the course before its too late and things are beyond repair.


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## credamdóchasgra

Actually, what i'm doing is entirely in line with this whole thermostat adjustment approach. i know what stonewalling is, and it's not what i'm doing when i cool my temp down. i do not offer up silent treatment. what i do is read a book, do some work, keep conversation minimal until enough time has passed that i feel i can open up--never longer than an hour. not stonewall.


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## AFEH

credamdóchasgra said:


> Actually, what i'm doing is entirely in line with this whole thermostat adjustment approach. i know what stonewalling is, and it's not what i'm doing when i cool my temp down. i do not offer up silent treatment. what i do is read a book, do some work, keep conversation minimal until enough time has passed that i feel i can open up--never longer than an hour. not stonewall.


What you are doing at these times is commonly known as “taking time out”. It’s a way for you to become calm before continuing with the “argument”. That is not what MEMs thermostat is about, unless I’m massively mistaken.


Your husband has interpreted your “time out” as passive aggression. I think I would too if my wife were to read a book while I have a need to resolve an issue. Also reading a book can clearly be interpreted as stonewalling as to whether you call it that or not.

Communication is a massive thing in a marriage and it’s probably very much more complex than in any other part of a person’s life. The complexity is massively affected by the stake each has in the marriage, the love they feel for one another and all the conflicting emotions they go through while they are in conflict.

Personally, all the communication skills I learnt as an engineer, consultant, sales and business person never once helped me in my marriage. Not once. I’ve been on communication courses, read many books on the topic and again none of these ever helped me in my marriage.


You’ve both proven yourselves over what the past 18 months totally unable to resolve the differences between you in a healthy way. You need the help of a communication expert/counsellor/therapist/coach. It wont do any good just one of you learning these things, you both need to learn together.


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## credamdóchasgra

He doesn't have the need to resolve it.
We're in therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Credam 
I think it is fair to tell him in conversation or if easier for him to digest in an email. You can emphasize that a normal cooling off period consists of multiple phases:
- actively angry (not able to constructively problem solve in this phase many people elect silence as it eliminates the potential for saying things you regret later) 
- calm but not yet ready to initiate peace. I have many people are willing to accept an olive Branch in this phase, and but not willing to extend one
- ready to move forward with or without an apology or direct resolution of the conflict

That last bit is tricky. It took me/us a long time to realize that it is more important to agree how a particular situation will be resolved in the future than to get an apology. 

I really hate it when you do.... 

Sure sounds different than 

The next time this situation arises it would mean a lot to me if you could....


----------



## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> Credam
> I think it is fair to tell him in conversation or if easier for him to digest in an email. You can emphasize that a normal cooling off period consists of multiple phases:
> - actively angry (not able to constructively problem solve in this phase many people elect silence as it eliminates the potential for saying things you regret later)
> - calm but not yet ready to initiate peace. I have many people are willing to accept an olive Branch in this phase, and but not willing to extend one
> - ready to move forward with or without an apology or direct resolution of the conflict
> 
> That last bit is tricky. It took me/us a long time to realize that it is more important to agree how a particular situation will be resolved in the future than to get an apology.
> 
> I really hate it when you do....
> 
> Sure sounds different than
> 
> The next time this situation arises it would mean a lot to me if you could....


I totally agree that it's more important to look forward and learn from whatever derailed us. I have tried "the next time this arises..." with mixed results.

And he has concurred that yes, sometimes silence is better for a period of time until we can talk without fueling a fire. He's just not *consistent* in his understanding and acceptance of this. Sometimes he's accepting of it, other times it ticks him off.

Bottom line: he goes quiet too sometimes when he's in any of the phases you describe. He just doesn't like it when I do. And why should he? When one of us does that, it means we're not happy. To be honest, I don't like it when he does it either. 

If it were up to me, there'd be no quiet. We'd talk to resolution, with negotiations and compromises. If it were up to him, tenuous topics would never get discussed. I've taken to getting quiet, *in response* to his previous complaints that I "pushed" for more conversation than he wanted. Temporary quiet to gather our thoughts and/or cool our jets is sometimes the only way to meet in the middle.


----------



## MEM2020

Lol
Lmao
Rotfl

Sorry I just - I just don't understand how this stuff works for anyone else. I have one pattern that I know. When she and I stop talking, we are almost always certainly done until she is ready to talk. But maybe that is because I am difficult. I have no idea. I only know that I am ok with a half day or two days of cool down. 

Doesn't happen often. I totally respect her desire to not discuss something until she is ready, largely because when we do she will be sane and I constructive.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

MEM11363 said:


> Lol
> Lmao
> Rotfl
> 
> Sorry I just - I just don't understand how this stuff works for anyone else. I have one pattern that I know. When she and I stop talking, we are almost always certainly done until she is ready to talk. But maybe that is because I am difficult. I have no idea. I only know that I am ok with a half day or two days of cool down.
> 
> Doesn't happen often. I totally respect her desire to not discuss something until she is ready, largely because when we do she will be sane and I constructive.


I'm missing the humor, maybe there's a disconnect, but anyway: 

Yes, one thing I've learned is the difference between a "good" time to talk about something, and the definitely WRONG time. 

Lest anyone misunderstand: it's not that he'd rather discuss something, but PA old me is refusing to talk. It's that he doesn't want to discuss it, but wants me to be immediately "over it" and cheerful.

I don't ignore elephants in the room. He does. That's tricky, but believe it or not, we're getting better.


----------



## MEM2020

The humor is about him not being able to "interact" with you for one whole hour. Wow. One hour. 

You are allowed to be angry at your spouse. While it is not ok to be abusive to them when angry, it absolutely is ok to be angry, and to insist on having a period of time during which you can cool down. It is a negation of your feelings to be asked to act as if everything is fine - just because your spouse doesn't like it when you are angry at them. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm missing the humor, maybe there's a disconnect, but anyway:
> 
> Yes, one thing I've learned is the difference between a "good" time to talk about something, and the definitely WRONG time.
> 
> Lest anyone misunderstand: it's not that he'd rather discuss something, but PA old me is refusing to talk. It's that he doesn't want to discuss it, but wants me to be immediately "over it" and cheerful.
> 
> I don't ignore elephants in the room. He does. That's tricky, but believe it or not, we're getting better.


----------



## credamdóchasgra

True. We do allow each other that time, don't get me wrong.
What I'm running into, and my original point was, that later on if we get into conflict again, he sometimes refers back to my previous quiet as "PA" after the fact. That's annoying. And hypocritical. 
But he never pressures or pushes me to talk if im still not ready to. He gives me my space if I need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

When he does that I would respond this way: - I feel our marriage is stronger than it used to be partly because we both use cooling off periods to avoid destructive escalation. I am grateful that you choose to do that when you get upset - instead of yelling at me or saying something hurtful in anger. 

Do you think I am being quiet to regain my composure and calm or to try to upset you?


----------



## Rogers

Well this certainly worked for me. My partner said she wanted time and space todecide if she wants to be in a relationship with me. She told me not to smother her so much so for one day I didnt show her any affection but was nice and polite in conversation. That night she was angry and told me she was sleeping in the spare room but wouldnt tell me what was wrong. When I got home from work the next day she was all over me.
A day later shes in a mood and tells me once again to stop smothering her so I back off. Next night she asks me why I only show her affection when it suits me. I reminded her that she asked me not to smother her and she said yes but you dont have to stop completely.
So appears she does want to work things out with me but is stubborn and just needs time.


----------



## Athena1

This is a well supported thread! Usually when I finally find a relevant thread on an internet forum, it has been abandoned for a long time. I see this one's running strong for a year. 

Anyways. This post is so true for my husband and I. I would love, LOVE for him to practice this cool-down. I want to have to chase him, sometimes. I am a strong woman, but I still want my man to show me his strength and self-confidence. 

He is currently trying to "care less." He went a couple of days with less contact, which definitely made me start to contact him more, but... he got upset before the plan could really take effect. Now he's asked me to initiate all contact for a while, which doesn't actually take the pressure of at all, just means I'm supposed to guess when he wants to hear from me. Which is ALL THE TIME. 

Additionally, I am loath to propose dates because I do know he'll drop absolutely everything to meet with me, even if all I want is a short coffee and he's leaving an important meeting for it. I'd like to know that he'll look out for his own interests as well as mine. Pressure's too high! 

I love that he loves me this much, but man I'd love it if he'd cool down! 

As the cool partner, what can I do to influence my husband to just relax? He regularly works himself into a state about how I care less than he does. And I do try to do better after that... but then it's too late because it seems insincere to him. (Which, in honesty, it is at that point.) 

I've been trying to pre-empt him, to make sure I indicate my love for him before he has a chance to feel neglected, but I always seem to have missed some facet. Also... it's a bit too late because I think he knows I'm trying to make up for lost time, so again, it feels insincere to him. 

I know he's being smothering because he's trying to up the temperature. I want it to go wayyyyy down. 

What's my next step here? I'm at a loss.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Athena1 said:


> What's my next step here? I'm at a loss.


Get him a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy. I suspect, based on what you are saying, that he gets a lot of his self validation (in addition to his marriage validation) from you. He needs to work on validating himself through himself. Ideally, he comes across the book on his own, but getting him a copy may be what you need to do.


----------



## Athena1

Tall Average Guy said:


> Get him a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy. I suspect, based on what you are saying, that he gets a lot of his self validation (in addition to his marriage validation) from you. He needs to work on validating himself through himself. Ideally, he comes across the book on his own, but getting him a copy may be what you need to do.


Thanks! He's being super hard on himself these days, so I'm loathe to give him a book on self-improvement because it'll seem like a criticism. But maybe I'll do so once he's levelled out a little. 

I'm also wondering if there are any behaviour modifications I can do myself, as the wife, to help him to feel confident enough in our relationship and in himself to chill the eff out! 

I see a lot of threads on here about giving the husband his own power and responsibility instead of taking on his role. But I'm thinking more in terms of this hot-cold thing, not the husband/wife roles. 

Again, thanks for the reply and the book suggestion. I think it would help him for sure, just not sure of a diplomatic way to give it to him yet.

Athena


----------



## MEM2020

Athena 
Since this concept makes sense to you I am going to extend it a bit. 

In a healthy marriage there is sufficient overlap to find compromise. 

I am the 'naturally warmer' partner which is exactly what I wanted. I wanted to be the one who loves more. In my prior relationships I felt claustrophobic when my partners chased me too much. 

But if you watched us you would see a very balanced interaction. I basically let her set the temp however she likes everywhere but in the bedroom. If it gets too cold in there I cool the rest of the house down until nature takes its course. 
But indifference is not sitting next to her quietly sulking - THAT - is very hot behavior. 

Cooler is ratcheting up outside activities like sports and hobbies and coming home late, happy and tired ready for a quick shower and sleep. 

It is true we have had conflict over desire imbalance, but we make an effort to meet in the middle. And frankly this stuff applies more strongly in that area than elsewhere. 

A low affect, light edge both in terms of being mildly rough physically, a little mocking humor (never mean spirited), mildly amused by her overly controlling nature, allows for low temperature sex. 

This is like having sex outside on a blanket in the fall when it is 55 farenheit - incredible. 

Versus having sex outside mid summer when it is 90 and humid. It doesn't feel good. 

This is why still 'in love' in year 23.


----------



## Athena1

Thanks for taking the time for such an in-depth response, MEM! 

Your point that sitting on the couch sulking is not cool behaviour seems like it should've been obvious to me, but it wasn't. It's hard to see clearly from the inside. 

I'm still dealing with a husband that is making me insane with the heat he's currently putting out, but I think I may be able to apply your system in reverse. 

My current plan, put in lots and lots (and lots) of extra relationship effort in the hopes that he'll feel like he doesn't need to overcompensate. I think I'm seeing the initial signs of cool-down on his end. 

I like the sounds of your marriage. I hope we can get to a consistent system like that too, once our marriage has matured a bit more. Here's hoping...

Thanks again,
Athena


----------



## just got it 55

Childish head games . All of it


----------



## mets21

Hi mem.. this is my fisrt post.. ive been reading all the others and its helped identify some of my own things I need to change. Im also the Hot one. Hence why all the hot ones are on this post. I am having the same problems everyone has. My wife once was very communicative to me and showed affection. Weve only been married 4 years and weve hit the rut everyone else has no affection, always disagreeing etc. Ive tried to switch the the things I do to much but she takes it even worse and makes me feel worse after I slow down the things I normally do. So im stuck with what to do and how to approach fixing o I r issues. Any help? Ask any questions youd like
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Do you have kids? 
How old are the two of you? 
What outside interests do you have? What about her?





mets21 said:


> Hi mem.. this is my fisrt post.. ive been reading all the others and its helped identify some of my own things I need to change. Im also the Hot one. Hence why all the hot ones are on this post. I am having the same problems everyone has. My wife once was very communicative to me and showed affection. Weve only been married 4 years and weve hit the rut everyone else has no affection, always disagreeing etc. Ive tried to switch the the things I do to much but she takes it even worse and makes me feel worse after I slow down the things I normally do. So im stuck with what to do and how to approach fixing o I r issues. Any help? Ask any questions youd like
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kiera88

Hello! I know that this is an older thread, but it's so incredibly relevant to my situation right now! In my marriage, I'm the warmer spouse and my husband is the cooler one. We're a young couple, but we've been together for nearly a decade since we started dating as teens. 

I feel that overall we have a very good relationship, however, sometimes I feel that my "clingy" behavior does really irritate him and put him off. For example, when we first started dating, I wasn't clingy simply because I didn't know him that well. He would hold my hand in public, be extremely affectionate and touchy-feely. Once we fell in love, I reciprocated those feelings, but it seems over time he just becomes more and more resistant and annoyed by my constant loving words and affectionate gestures. He always jokes that I like to suffocate him with love, but I think this is more truth than humor on his part.

One aspect too is that he likes to control when we have intercourse - for me being the warmer partner, I've never turned him down, but whenever I like to be forward or initiate, he seems put off and usually always turns me down. This, of course, happened around the same time that I noticed him getting irked with my "clingy-ness".

So, after coming upon this thread, I employed the "cooling down" method. My hubby is a truck driver but is home on the weekends, so a lot of our contact is via phone. I used to call him multiple times a day or send him little cute stuff on Facebook, but it got to the point where he was actually ignoring my calls to talk to his buddies instead. That hurt - not only that, this past weekend when he came home, we went out to dinner and I tried to be playful/affectionate in public, and he barked at me to stop. That's what has led me here!

I haven't called him since he left on Sunday (unless he requested that I call him, for example, to call me back when I get out the shower or something of that nature). My husband is a loving person - I don't worry about him loving me, but I do feel that there is a level of disrespect for my affections. Naturally, he called me right away when he noticed that I hadn't called, seeing how I was doing, etc, etc. He's also sent me some cutesy text messages, something he never does. Today, I think he was testing me, because he didn't call me until around 4:30 in the evening; I know that he is suspicious about my sudden change in attitude. I think he wanted to see how long I would "hold out" before I caved in and called him. Didn't work! :ezpi_wink1:

So I guess my question is, what do I say to him when he asks why I'm not calling him like I always do and why I'm not acting affectionate like always? When he comes home this weekend, I don't plan to make any loving gestures unless he initiates (i.e. hugging, kissing). This is a BIG change from how I normally act - I'm also not telling him I love him unless he says it first, which he faithfully does, but I know he notices the difference. Any advice would be soooo appreciated!

ETA: I just wanted to add that I'm NOT being cold or mean to him when he calls, I'm being happy and cheerful as always, which I think is confusing him more, haha. XD


----------



## MEM2020

Kiera,
Well done. 

It is very good that you are responding warmly to him when HE initiates contact/affection/sex. When you encourage/support that type of behavior, generally you get more of it. 

If he presses you on 'why' you are doing this, just say:

I love you enough to not smother you.



QUOTE=Kiera88;6847785]Hello! I know that this is an older thread, but it's so incredibly relevant to my situation right now! In my marriage, I'm the warmer spouse and my husband is the cooler one. We're a young couple, but we've been together for nearly a decade since we started dating as teens. 

I feel that overall we have a very good relationship, however, sometimes I feel that my "clingy" behavior does really irritate him and put him off. For example, when we first started dating, I wasn't clingy simply because I didn't know him that well. He would hold my hand in public, be extremely affectionate and touchy-feely. Once we fell in love, I reciprocated those feelings, but it seems over time he just becomes more and more resistant and annoyed by my constant loving words and affectionate gestures. He always jokes that I like to suffocate him with love, but I think this is more truth than humor on his part.

One aspect too is that he likes to control when we have intercourse - for me being the warmer partner, I've never turned him down, but whenever I like to be forward or initiate, he seems put off and usually always turns me down. This, of course, happened around the same time that I noticed him getting irked with my "clingy-ness".

So, after coming upon this thread, I employed the "cooling down" method. My hubby is a truck driver but is home on the weekends, so a lot of our contact is via phone. I used to call him multiple times a day or send him little cute stuff on Facebook, but it got to the point where he was actually ignoring my calls to talk to his buddies instead. That hurt - not only that, this past weekend when he came home, we went out to dinner and I tried to be playful/affectionate in public, and he barked at me to stop. That's what has led me here!

I haven't called him since he left on Sunday (unless he requested that I call him, for example, to call me back when I get out the shower or something of that nature). My husband is a loving person - I don't worry about him loving me, but I do feel that there is a level of disrespect for my affections. Naturally, he called me right away when he noticed that I hadn't called, seeing how I was doing, etc, etc. He's also sent me some cutesy text messages, something he never does. Today, I think he was testing me, because he didn't call me until around 4:30 in the evening; I know that he is suspicious about my sudden change in attitude. I think he wanted to see how long I would "hold out" before I caved in and called him. Didn't work! :ezpi_wink1:

So I guess my question is, what do I say to him when he asks why I'm not calling him like I always do and why I'm not acting affectionate like always? When he comes home this weekend, I don't plan to make any loving gestures unless he initiates (i.e. hugging, kissing). This is a BIG change from how I normally act - I'm also not telling him I love him unless he says it first, which he faithfully does, but I know he notices the difference. Any advice would be soooo appreciated!

ETA: I just wanted to add that I'm NOT being cold or mean to him when he calls, I'm being happy and cheerful as always, which I think is confusing him more, haha. XD[/QUOTE]


----------



## Kiera88

That's an excellent reply! Thanks so much! ^_^


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> Women love their children unconditionally - not their male partners. This is not a critique - just a statement of fact.
> 
> The average male does not behave well when given unconditional love by his partner - and yes yes YMMV.


I need some conditions to keep my attraction. That's not to say I want to work my butt off. It's just nice to know what I want is not something everyone else can easily have, too. 

That's honesty and I don't know if that is so good. It doesn't seem so while reading other threads concerning sex. 

Maybe my thinking is off? I've been called out a few times on this and I have always felt misunderstood.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Deejo said:


> You over-delivered and/or under-performed. When is the last time your spouse articulated what she 'needs' from you?
> 
> This generally comes about because somehow you feel your spouse slipping away and thus pursue her more ... only to have her pull away even further.
> 
> Or ...
> 
> You haven't been paying attention to what she has been telling you she needs from her partner. In other words, you haven't been a great husband.
> 
> I'm not accusing of one or the other, but those scenarios are generally where the cycle begins.


And desperation sets in. How do you avoid this desperate feeling and the ensuing, "begging-style", behavior? I think that's the tough part, when one is in love. Maybe, it's just the fact that we need to up the respect of ourselves, and thereby know we deserve better? I suppose doing things for ourselves, that are away from the marriage and accomplish small goals of our own, will stymie this?


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> True love means:
> - I WANT to make you happy, largely because doing so makes ME happy
> - I actively avoid doing things that make you unhappy because I feel bad when I cause you distress through my own actions or inaction
> - I accept that to LOVE me, you have to respect me and that means I earn respect by (fill in the blank) and DEMAND respect when you are testing my strength of resolve and pushing my boundaries.
> 
> When I say I LOVE you - it is truly a compound statement. It means I love WHO you are (your humor and intelligence, honesty and determination, courage and resourcefullness) AND I love how you TREAT me.
> 
> If you are treating me poorly I stop saying ILY, because half of the statement is false. And love built on deception is destructive to both people.


Quoted for emphasis.


----------



## 2ntnuf

tiredandout said:


> I sneaked a peak to this side, as this thread seems to have an interesting discussion going.
> 
> Reading it all through, however, I still don't know how to clearly define which of us — my husband or me — is truly playing the role of the hotter person.
> 
> I can see myself in a lot of the 'hot' behavior. I am naturally touchy, kind, as well as get very anxious when my husband is angry at me and am quick to accept blame to get over a fight. My husband shares some of these qualities though. He gets very upset if he feels I am not giving him the love he needs and he is generally the one to seem more 'clingy' in terms of keeping contact and spending time together.
> 
> On the other hand, I am not good at talking about my feelings and he feels like I am distancing myself from him that way. This can at times make him so insecure that he starts to feel overly clingy — which makes me want to back off. At other times there are issues which I feel like he won't discuss with me — I feel like he is running away and I'm being pushy.
> 
> Basically we're just two bundles of quicksilver jumping up and down the scale? We are similar in character, which makes us great friends but then again a bad combination at times when we at the same time present our traits of being overly emotional and sensitive.


hmmm...I somehow can really relate to this. My marriage is over, a long time ago, but, so similar....uncanny. At least, this is what I thought it was like. 

Love and time can play tricks on the mind, though. Maybe I am not remembering correctly, but this was how it comes back in my mind, at least in the beginning. Maybe it was just the normal honeymoon period? Who knows. 

So, my question is, what is dysfunctional about this, just from what you see here, MEM? What needs fixed and how?

There were other things, which came up later. I don't want to make you think this is all it was, but I know what those are and how to correct them. I just have to do the work.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> It is ok to be warmer. It is bad to crowd. It is easy to tell the difference:
> - if your partner responds in a consistently happy, loving way to your overtures, keep doing them
> - if they are neutral, or worse seem irritated, you should stop doing whatever it is that is causing their reaction
> 
> But here's the deal. If you think that the two of you should touch base by text 3 times a dsyb every day, and she does not, when you cut back to zero or one, she is not going to start chasing you.
> 
> And if you need that level of reassurance, go to IC


Sometimes, this shows indifference to a partner. I found that texting zero, was a bad thing during emotional times. I found that it reinforced her thoughts that I didn't desire her. It's a balancing act and a case by case basis. I think, anyway. 

I think some communication before going so far as to stop all texts, is necessary to keep from adding to insecurities. I do agree that IC or MC may be appropriate, depending on the couple.

I think then, the hot or cold method can be adjusted to fit each person's circumstances.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> When he does that I would respond this way: - I feel our marriage is stronger than it used to be partly because we both use cooling off periods to avoid destructive escalation. I am grateful that you choose to do that when you get upset - instead of yelling at me or saying something hurtful in anger.
> 
> Do you think I am being quiet to regain my composure and calm or to try to upset you?


I'd likely leave that last sentence out. hahaha 

So, why do you put it in? Is there something I'm missing? It seems provocative.


----------



## MEM2020

If you don't initiate any texts to her during the day - what happens?

Does she text you? 

Or does she get bltchy because you are ignoring her? 




2ntnuf said:


> Sometimes, this shows indifference to a partner. I found that texting zero, was a bad thing during emotional times. I found that it reinforced her thoughts that I didn't desire her. It's a balancing act and a case by case basis. I think, anyway.
> 
> I think some communication before going so far as to stop all texts, is necessary to keep from adding to insecurities. I do agree that IC or MC may be appropriate, depending on the couple.
> 
> I think then, the hot or cold method can be adjusted to fit each person's circumstances.


----------



## MEM2020

Fair point. Here's the thing:
1. One hour of cooling off is just that
2. Several days of cooling off is typically a type of passive aggressive warfare





2ntnuf said:


> I'd likely leave that last sentence out. hahaha
> 
> So, why do you put it in? Is there something I'm missing? It seems provocative.


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> If you don't initiate any texts to her during the day - what happens?
> 
> Does she text you?
> 
> Or does she get bltchy because you are ignoring her?


Well, I'm divorced, but still looking for some possible answers to what I did wrong and then correct them. 

At the time, she did and said nothing. I thought little of that, until time crept along. Then, I went into the worried clingy mode. I know that's bad. 

Probably a red flag that she was out of the relationship already, and didn't care?


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> Fair point. Here's the thing:
> 1. One hour of cooling off is just that
> 2. Several days of cooling off is typically a type of passive aggressive warfare


A few times, I was guilty of number two. My fault totally, I actually said I needed a couple of days to gather thoughts and come back to the discussion. As life and my peabrain would have it, sometimes I forgot. 

Nothing was mentioned to call me on it, usually, and I never thought of it again, or dealt with whatever it was properly. I take the blame for that. I knew better, but did not keep my word. It was not intentional, but the same harm was done as if it was.


----------



## 2ntnuf

By the way, thank you so much for this thread. It is very very good. 

I read the part about the 180 being similar to what you suggest to cool things off. It's what I mean when I suggest a mild 180. What you have posted is much more descriptive.


----------



## Horsa

A great thread Mem.
It's funny that I was the cool one when we dated and early year of marriage, and slowly began to change after our daughter was born. I was so happy being a father, and deeply moved by DW's sacrifices in pregnancy and labour. Maybe too much that I began to put her up on the pedestal. R went bad soon and headed to being worst in a year after our son was born. Her attempts to lower the temp made me feels so unloved.
I was about to walk away after 2 years of feeling unloved when I read your post about 180, and that got me to gave R one last try, and it did with very good result. But since I haven't worked on my inner issues, I got back to being hot again so many times. But I can say that I'm a lot better now. And this thread was a great add-on in my quest to be a better husband and man. Thank you so much Mem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

We keep the thermostat cranked up to 90 degrees, 24/7, year round. 

I'm really grateful that we both like it hot.


----------



## MEM2020

Nothing more beautiful than that. 

We've had 90 degree years and 60 degree years. When it's 60 I wear a long sleeved shirt.



Faithful Wife said:


> We keep the thermostat cranked up to 90 degrees, 24/7, year round.
> 
> I'm really grateful that we both like it hot.


----------



## MEM2020

Horsa,
Truly glad to be of service. Here's the thing. I truly do love M2. And part of loving her is knowing not to crowd her. 

I give her room to breathe and she loves me for it.....






Horsa said:


> A great thread Mem.
> It's funny that I was the cool one when we dated and early year of marriage, and slowly began to change after our daughter was born. I was so happy being a father, and deeply moved by DW's sacrifices in pregnancy and labour. Maybe too much that I began to put her up on the pedestal. R went bad soon and headed to being worst in a year after our son was born. Her attempts to lower the temp made me feels so unloved.
> I was about to walk away after 2 years of feeling unloved when I read your post about 180, and that got me to gave R one last try, and it did with very good result. But since I haven't worked on my inner issues, I got back to being hot again so many times. But I can say that I'm a lot better now. And this thread was a great add-on in my quest to be a better husband and man. Thank you so much Mem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bob1471

WOW. Just fouind this. Me and wife spot on.
Im the hot one and shes cold. Always been like it. More so after 20 years or so of marriage.

I never understand why she cant be more loving and sometime seems like she cant be bothered. Also she seems to push away at times as if Im getting too close. Very upsetting.

She seems happy to just be together and not need too much of the other stuff.

Seems its fairly common then.


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## Forest

Does anyone else find thinking of a thermostat as a barometer is like eating a sno-cone too fast?


----------



## MEM2020

Forest,

Well done. My - umm - poor choice of words has been bothering me almost from the get go on this thread. 

You are the first person to mention it. 

Perhaps better would be: The thermostat, the ultimate gauge of your relationship. 







Forest said:


> Does anyone else find thinking of a thermostat as a barometer is like eating a sno-cone too fast?


----------



## Forest

MEM11363 said:


> Forest,
> 
> Well done. My - umm - poor choice of words has been bothering me almost from the get go on this thread.
> 
> You are the first person to mention it.
> 
> Perhaps better would be: The thermostat, the ultimate gauge of your relationship.


No way. The therm/barometer thing is the Jenny Say Quah of the whole thread.


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## TheStranger

Well, this concept ultimately saved my sex life. Thank you MEM.


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## BioFury

I realize this is a zombie thread, but its the first time I've seen it too. Very interesting. If I may ask MEM, where did you come across this concept? A book? Article? I'm interested in reading more about it if more is available.


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## BioFury

MEM11363 said:


> Forest,
> 
> Well done. My - umm - poor choice of words has been bothering me almost from the get go on this thread.
> 
> You are the first person to mention it.
> 
> Perhaps better would be: The thermostat, the ultimate gauge of your relationship.


Alright, lets see if this works. See last post


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## MEM2020

BioFury,

Love that screen name. 

I read this article about the pursuer/pursuit model of romance. 

Than I read the 5 love languages. 

This concept is my synthesis of those two aspects of a LTR. 

And FWIW, co-managing the emotional temperature in the house has made for a very happy, loving marriage. 




BioFury said:


> I realize this is a zombie thread, but its the first time I've seen it too. Very interesting. If I may ask MEM, where did you come across this concept? A book? Article? I'm interested in reading more about it if more is available.


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## BioFury

MEM11363 said:


> BioFury,
> 
> Love that screen name.
> 
> I read this article about the pursuer/pursuit model of romance.
> 
> Than I read the 5 love languages.
> 
> This concept is my synthesis of those two aspects of a LTR.
> 
> And FWIW, co-managing the emotional temperature in the house has made for a very happy, loving marriage.


Thank you 

Ok, do you perchance recall the title of the article? I have the 5 love languages, but what I took from it was more about how people recognize love and accept love, rather than how "aggressive" people are in love, and how they react to their partners level of "aggression". Or to their partner trying to build up or strengthen the relationship. If that makes sense.


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## MEM2020

The best source of info on the pursuer/pursued is Ester 

Sample article below. 

In 'theory' some folks will say that spending tons of time with your partner and touching each other a lot non sexually creates more intimacy which will lead to more sex. 

That's not quite true for most couples. For MOST folks, seeing and touching each other LESS than they want to, creates sexual desire. 

The highest desire levels M2 and I BOTH had, were when I travelled for work 3-4 days a week. 

Obviously there are many other factors that feed into the equation but that is a big one. 

The closer the couple, the better the sex? Not so - Telegraph




BioFury said:


> Thank you
> 
> Ok, do you perchance recall the title of the article? I have the 5 love languages, but what I took from it was more about how people recognize love and accept love, rather than how "aggressive" people are in love, and how they react to their partners level of "aggression". Or to their partner trying to build up or strengthen the relationship. If that makes sense.


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## BioFury

MEM11363 said:


> The best source of info on the pursuer/pursued is Ester
> 
> Sample article below.
> 
> In 'theory' some folks will say that spending tons of time with your partner and touching each other a lot non sexually creates more intimacy which will lead to more sex.
> 
> That's not quite true for most couples. For MOST folks, seeing and touching each other LESS than they want to, creates sexual desire.
> 
> The highest desire levels M2 and I BOTH had, were when I travelled for work 3-4 days a week.
> 
> Obviously there are many other factors that feed into the equation but that is a big one.
> 
> The closer the couple, the better the sex? Not so - Telegraph


Yes, a man dying of thirst will appreciate a cup of water more than you or I. Thanks for the article


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## Horsa215

Great Thread. I stumbled upon this while searching how to live life for me. Im hot an the W is cold. Your description is of us almost perfectly. Heres the thing. About 6 months ago I caught my wife having an emotional affair with a guy at her work. She lied about it for 4 months and told me it was nothing till she got fired and needed me. When I found out I got real hot thinking I did something wrong. but in the end it wasn't me and I need to cool down now. We did the marriage counseling thing, and it just wasn't really going anywhere cause she lied to the consoler so I stopped going. Now we go to separated consolers. Fast forward we are working things out and things are better but she says Im passive. I also have the feeling I lost myself cause of paying so much attention to her. I recently started going to the gym and lost 30lbs got myself back together. Now I new her to get emotionally back to being warmer. So Im going to give this a try.. Any other advice would be great.


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## farsidejunky

Horsa215 said:


> Great Thread. I stumbled upon this while searching how to live life for me. Im hot an the W is cold. Your description is of us almost perfectly. Heres the thing. About 6 months ago I caught my wife having an emotional affair with a guy at her work. She lied about it for 4 months and told me it was nothing till she got fired and needed me. When I found out I got real hot thinking I did something wrong. but in the end it wasn't me and I need to cool down now. We did the marriage counseling thing, and it just wasn't really going anywhere cause she lied to the consoler so I stopped going. Now we go to separated consolers. Fast forward we are working things out and things are better but she says Im passive. I also have the feeling I lost myself cause of paying so much attention to her. I recently started going to the gym and lost 30lbs got myself back together. Now I new her to get emotionally back to being warmer. So Im going to give this a try.. Any other advice would be great.


 @Horsa215:

Lowering the thermostat is not necessarily what one wants to do exclusively in the wake of an affair.

I would suggest starting a thread in the Coping With Infidelity section. You will receive better advice that way.


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## anchorwatch

Hello, @Horsa215

Have you browsed the other sticky threads and recommended readings? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html


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