# Can spouses have friends of the opposite sex...



## Cee Paul

.....that they still hangout with and do stuff with while married or in a serious relationship? Well with some people that have totally open minds they can still do that, but the minute that let's say Bob(fake name)starts getting in the way of my time with my wife and interrupting our plans - there's gonna be a huuuuge problem with that!


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## gav

Cee Paul said:


> .....that they still hangout with and do stuff with while married or in a serious relationship? Well with some people that have totally open minds they can still do that, but the minute that let's say Bob(fake name)starts getting in the way of my time with my wife and interrupting our plans - there's gonna be a huuuuge problem with that!


No.


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## Entropy3000

No


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## frazaled

Not any more but until he cheated on me with one of our mutual friends I never had a problem with it ...how silly was I. :scratchhead:


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

No


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## Gratitude

They can but it's a risk. I don't believe in opening that gateway. Protect your marriage at all costs.


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## Ittakestwo

I do not think that it is a healthy thing for a relationship to have either partner/spouse spending alone time with a friend of the opposite sex. If they come over to the house when both spouses are home or they all go out together...maybe as long as it is not taking time away from the time the marriage needs to be healthy. 

I feel that each spouse deserves the respect of not having any situation that could appear to be an affair or the possibility of one. 

IMHO


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## seekinghelpnow

I agree with it takes two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash.

No.


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## Numb in Ohio

I agree with the majority.. No way


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## Jeff/BC

Heh... Somewhere in the human genome is this compulsion to tell other people what to do... how life works... how to run their lives... to control them.

How about you let me worry about what works in my life?


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## LovesHerMan

Add my voice to the chorus here. You are giving your time, emotional energy, and affection to a friend. It is way too easy to cross that line into an EA and then a PA. I do not do anything with, or confide in any guy except my brother, and I would not want my husband to have a female friend.


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## LovesHerMan

Jeff/BC said:


> Heh... Somewhere in the human genome is this compulsion to tell other people what to do... how life works... how to run their lives... to control them.
> 
> How about you let me worry about what works in my life?


This puzzles me. The forum is a place for advice. You take what applies to you, and discard the rest. No one is controlling anyone else here.


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## Cee Paul

When I met my ex she had a couple of male "friends" that she was hanging out and going places with, and she said it was all platonic and that she had known them for several years. So when we got together and got engaged I of course wanted to spend more and more time with her, and I evntually moved in like most people tend to do. But when these male "friends" kept wanting to hang around and one was meeting her for lunch because they worked in the same company, this became a biiiig problem and I finally stepped in and put a stop to it which ended up in several fights later on over it, and she accused me of being "controlling" at least 50 times during those several arguements.


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## Dollystanford

yep, I've got male friends that I've had since I was 18 who I adore but have no sexual feeling for in any way, never have had

my H never had a problem with them, their girlfriends/wives never had a problem with me - they've never needed to


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Jeff/BC said:


> Heh... Somewhere in the human genome is this compulsion to tell other people what to do... how life works... how to run their lives... to control them.
> 
> How about you let me worry about what works in my life?


lolz


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Dollystanford said:


> yep, I've got male friends that I've had since I was 18 who I adore but have no sexual feeling for in any way, never have had
> 
> my H never had a problem with them, their girlfriends/wives never had a problem with me - they've never needed to


funny how these sneak up on people before they realize, just takes the wrong moment.


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## Entropy3000

This has been covered a bunch on the forum. Ok, ladies maybe you can friend zone guys and keep it that way. But whether you want to accept it or not those guys are there ready and willing to fill the gap your hubby or you leave. Guys do not invest time in women unless they are at some fundamental level interested. Not saying that is all they are there for but they do enjoy dating you even though you are married. Friends meet our needs. That is why they are friends. We bond with them. That is all well and good but if the boundaries are unclear then you are taking a huge risk.

*Spouses may come and go but friends are forever.* :scratchhead: This is a choice of priorities. Somewhat self fullfilling perhaps.

It is one thing to have oppositie sex friends. It is another when they are competing for time with your spouse. When you hang out with them. Have lunch, coffee and movie dates. Don't get me wrong I have not doubt it would be all sorts of fun to be able to have the benefits of marriage and get to date other people too. I just know that can't work for me. It does work for folks that have a more open view of marriage. And that is just fine.

So is it ok for a spouse to have one on one movie dates at the other persons house? You know just hangout late and maybe sleep on the couch if they have too much to drink.

I am just trying to find out where the boundaries are.
If it is ok to have these friends where are the boundaries? Is the boundary just what ever feels right? Is it ok to discuss marital and sexual issues.

Is it ok to leave a note for hubby telling him you are over at your friends house and for him not to wait up? Or tell him oh babe sorry you made time for me today but I am going out with Dave. He is having some trouble with Laura and needs some advice. Besides he gives such great back massages. LOL.


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## unbelievable

A woman I could never have sex with would hold my interest about as much as a bowl of plastic fruit. If I know they are off-limits, what's the point in hanging out with them?


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## Entropy3000

*Mystery Sock Puppet Theatre 3000*

"Hey dude, what are you doing Friday night?" 

"Oh I am going to meeting up with Bob's wife, get something to eat and we are going back to my place. Watch a movie maybe. We get together a lot and talk. She feels I am her soulmate."

"I heard Bob was a controlling [email protected]"

"Yeah, would you believe he kept calling her last Saturday wondering where she was and who she was with? She just told him she was out with her friends. She finally just turned her phone off. That is one insecure guy with jealosy issues."

"But here is the kicker, he shows up at my place around 3am. So I call the cops on him. His wife was livid. I have no idea why she would put up with such a controlling guy like that. I have been telling her that I would never treat her that way. I am always there for her whenever she needs me."

"I mean he is not her dad! He does not own her. She is so great he just does not want to share her. It is great she is starting to see him for what he is."


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## Dollystanford

it's not like we're in each other's pockets, any more than I am with my female friends

but I've been mates with these people for nearly 20 years now, we've all been through various spouses and boyfriends/girlfriends...and never once has there been anything between us

in fact when H walked out two months ago I saw one of them, he gave me a hug, we had a drink and a smoke and a long chat and then his girlfriend came home from work and we all had dinner, I've just never seen the problem!!


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## Entropy3000

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> Hold on there. Fruit can be useful.
> 
> Oh wait, you said plastic, never mind.


Some men can tell the fake ones from a mile away.

Others have to have a feel to be sure. I like natural fruit.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Entropy3000 said:


> Some men can tell the fake ones from a mile away.
> 
> Other have to have a feel to be sure. I like natural fruit.


my mindset exactly


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## Entropy3000

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> My dh loves my melons, I adore his cucumber, and well, we've pretty much covered bananas.


Vegetables are sensual


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## CandieGirl

Jeff/BC said:


> Heh... Somewhere in the human genome is this compulsion to tell other people what to do... how life works... how to run their lives... to control them.
> 
> How about you let me worry about what works in my life?


...I predict a long life of you being single with an attitude like that...


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## Cee Paul

There might be absolutely nothing going on but that's not how others will perceive it if they see your spouse always hanging out with another dude or another woman, and to me perception means a lot if it becomes a constant headache and something that makes you feel uncomfortable answering a lot of questions about your spouse.


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## jenniferred

It sounds like I am going to be going against the crowd here but I think the answer is yes, however not always. It depends on the people involved.

I grew up 100% tomboy and will always be one. I became a volunteer firefighter at the age of 16. During high school my friends were mostly guys. I could hang out with the girls too but tended to have a lot more in common with the guys so therefor I tended to have more fun with them. 

My husband (soon to be ex for other reasons) has a female friend that he has on occasion been alone with. It does not bother me one bit. I've seen how they interact and there is nothing there. He has a very specific physical type of woman that he likes and she is not it. I have also watched this woman interact with her husband. They are clearly in love. I don't see her as a threat. It does not bother me at all.

I had a male friend that I was very close to. He is significantly older than me. I guess it was kind of like a big brother / little sister relationship. He used to come by here a lot. He chatted with my husband and we all had a great time. Unfortunately, him and his wife went through a rough patch. She became very insecure and started suspecting an affair between her husband and I. My friendship with him was clearly causing issues in their marriage. I spoke with him and made the decision that I would no longer contact him. I miss our friendship but his marriage is more important. I did not want to be any part of an argument between him and his wife. My point.... If the it is truly a friendship and nothing else, it may still cause a problem if someone is insecure. 

Conclusion...It depends. I have and feel other can have a friendship with someone of the opposite sex that is completely innocent and non-sexual. I'm fine with my man being friends with certain other women. He's fine with me doing the same. If however, if any party involved becomes uncomfortable with the situation than the friendship needs to change. Perhaps only visit and speak to this friend in the presence of your significant other.


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## lovelygirl

My mom has a lot of guy-friends but I don't think that's a problem as long as she has never/doesn't cheat on my dad. 
So really, there's no problem about having friends of the opposite sex as long as they are not interferring in the status of your marital life.


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## NextTimeAround

lovelygirl said:


> My mom has a lot of guy-friends but I don't think that's a problem as long as she has never/doesn't cheat on my dad.
> So really, there's no problem about having friends of the opposite sex as long as they are not interferring in the status of your marital life.


I agree with the above. The problem here though is that we never know when a "friend" is going to jump the track and follow their own rules. I used to think that everyone in a situation would behave properly. I have been sorely disappointed. I might allow my SO to have this or that female friend, but these days, the first late night text, inappropriate hug or moment when I am the last to know about something and.......no I am gone. If my SO thinks that he can get his needs met by his female friends, then I am gone.


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## Entropy3000

So anyone who is actually going to stay married to their spouse fall on the side of opposite sex friends?

Anyone who is not in an open marriage scenario ok with this kind of dating?
I am stressing the dating because we are talking about scheduling one on one time with people of the opposite sex in isolation from thier spouses. How is this not a date? You can claim intent if you would like. Then we would have to read the minds of folks who are doing the interacting.


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## Browneyedgurl020610

Married couples and serious couples can absolutely have friends of the opposite sex. Me and my husband both do. We both have trust for each other. I know in my heart he loves me and would never cheat on me. Same goes for me. I love him with all my heart and would never cheat or do anything that would jeopardize my marriage.


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## Entropy3000

I have opposite sex friends but I do not schedule time with them for one on one time. Does anyone see the difference here with this? Does having friends of the opposite sex mean you will be scheduling one on one time together?


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## Browneyedgurl020610

Entropy3000 said:


> I have opposite sex friends but I do not schedule time with them for one on one time. Does anyone see the difference here with this? Does having friends of the opposite sex mean you will be scheduling one on one time together?


We do both. Me and my hubby spend time with them together and sometimes we spend times with them apart. Granted I have more male friends then he does female friends, but that really is not a major factor. It is all about trust. If you don't trust your partner alone with someone, then something very wrong.


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## Entropy3000

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> We do both. Me and my hubby spend time with them together and sometimes we spend times with them apart. Granted I have more male friends then he does female friends, but that really is not a major factor. It is all about trust. If you don't trust your partner alone with someone, then something very wrong.


I believe marriage is about love and respect and that trust is a by product. When I was 24 I believed the same as you. Experience has taught me much. I was very naive and idealistic.

I would never trust my wife nor myself to date others.

But I do appreciate you actually coming out and saying this because it is really not about having opposite sex friends per se. It is about scheduling one on one time with others.

What boundaries have you guys agreed to around all of this? Are the boundaries based on complete trust and knowing that nothing inappropriate can occur?

I believe what usually happens is that friends start meeting needs and they slowly fall into an EA. They do not go into it intending to cheat. Their personal boundaries slide based on how they feel.

But you may also have some boundaries around this. What are they? Is it ok for you to go over to a friends place and hangout? Or are these lunch get togethers? What activities are ok and what are not? Just trying to get where you are coming from here.


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## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> I would never trust my wife nor myself to date others.


Just because you can't trust yourself or wife, doesn't mean others can't.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you can't trust yourself or wife, doesn't mean other can't.


Others can and do all too often. It is common to see young folks have an ideal of total trust is what marriage is about. Not always young but very common.

There is no one on this planet I trust more than my wife. I trust her not to date other men. 

So you feel that as long as a couple have complete trust in one another they should be ok with their spouses scheduling alone time with others.

That a spouse who does not have this total trust in their spouse and these other players is jealous, insecure and controlling?

Is this not dating other people? Someone please tell me what the difference is. Intent?

What boundaries do you feel are required? None? Just total trust in your spouse AND these other people to do what feels right?

So certainly if others wish to be ok with their spouses dating as part of their marriage then of course by definition it is ok. It would not be cheating if spouses agreed to this.

So no my wife and I have always had a hard boundary of no dating other people. That would absoltely be absurd for us.

So can we just put some boundaries here? Dating is ok as long as there is no sexual activities? I am assuming that cuddling is out. Holding hands is out. Hugs for longer that two minutes are out. Minimal kissing. No crying together. No sharing of marital issues. Just positive chatter about the spouses. Home by 2am on a weekend and midnight on a school night.
Drinking alcohol is ok. No dressing up too sexy. Just throwing a frisbie and exchanging recipes.

I guess this reminds me of a college life style more than a long term marriage. But folks are free to define thier marriage in any way they wish. It is really only a problem when the assumed views turn out to be different.

I remember someone telling me that being married does not mean you are off the market. I was insulted at first but came to realize what they meant. Not that people will purposely cheat but that there is no magical barrier around us when we are married. We have to enforce boundaries that are right for us.


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## Numb in Ohio

My H would go play golf with guys on a golf league... yet he would call his female "friends" on his way there or way home (that I didn't know about of course).

So can I say that if he wanted to go golf with female friends instead of guys and I knew about it, that I should be ok with it? Uh ,, no freakin way. My H can't walk past a woman without "checking her out",, so no wouldn't trust him alone with a woman for anything.

I thought I had full trust in him also, and now I feel like I have "FOOL" across my forehead.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you can't trust yourself or wife, doesn't mean other can't.


arent you playing both sides here? :scratchhead:


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## Browneyedgurl020610

I am not "dating" my friends....I don't understand you. They are my friends. Yes I am young and like to hang out, have dinner, play games ect. I have done this since I was in my teens. I am in a happy and loving marriage with my husband, but I also have friends that I have been friends with since high school. Same as him and I would never tell him who he can and can not be friends with UNLESS so called friend was being all flirty and what not. That is where I draw a line. I am sure some of my guy friends may find me attractive or what not, but they also know I am married and happy and would never do anything to jeopardize that. My husband trusts me completely and I trust him. I dont spend more time with my friends then I do my husband, but I do live with him, see him all the time and it is nice sometimes just to be with friends and it is also nice for me and him to hang with friends.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you can't trust yourself or wife, doesn't mean other can't.


Also, I have read your other threads about virginity, dancing and flirting. All great topics.

Take this as a compassionate comment. When you finally marry. Protect your marriage in the same manner you have protected yourself. That includes looking out for your husband as well as you.

Realize that people can fall in love. It starts as a friendship. Marriage is tough enough without inviting troubles. It is great to have friends but dating others? Really? Date your spouse. Have friends that are friends of the couple. Alone time with others? Dangerous in my opinion. Why risk what is the most important thing?


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## Entropy3000

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> I am not "dating" my friends....I don't understand you. They are my friends. Yes I am young and like to hang out, have dinner, play games ect. I have done this since I was in my teens. I am in a happy and loving marriage with my husband, but I also have friends that I have been friends with since high school. Same as him and I would never tell him who he can and can not be friends with UNLESS so called friend was being all flirty and what not. That is where I draw a line. I am sure some of my guy friends may find me attractive or what not, but they also know I am married and happy and would never do anything to jeopardize that. My husband trusts me completely and I trust him. I dont spend more time with my friends then I do my husband, but I do live with him, see him all the time and it is nice sometimes just to be with friends and it is also nice for me and him to hang with friends.


By dating I mean one on one time with guys. No one else. Private time at his place. Going to movies. Out to dinner and so on. Usually a scheduled time to meet and do some activity separate from others. I am clear that to you they are friend zoned. If a guy invests time in a woman at some level he is interested. Your hubby is no exception if he is a guy and he has any testosterone going on. That does not mean he intends to cheat. It means he could very well fall head over heels in love with someone he spends time with. The pressure really begins when there are stresses within the relationship. That is inevitable. The stress that is.

When I hear hanging out with friends it has the connotation of a group of folks. If my wife said I am going to go hangout Saturday evening with friends I do not imagine that as one on one private time with another man.

I am absolutely trying to nail down the gray areas here as to what is meant by hanging out and to what level of isolation this infers. It sounds like dating. I know I must be wrong.

The thing is that when there is isolation you may not pickup on what is going on until there is a big problem. You might.

I get that these are friends from high school. Have you ever dated any of these folks before you were married?

Instigation. Isolation. Escalation. The isolation is the key to go from instigation to escalation. This is the prime directive. Not saying all guys will pursue this but they will if they see the green light for sure.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Entropy3000 said:


> Why risk what is the most important thing?


that depends on what they see as the most important. obviously some see the friendship as the most important.


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## Entropy3000

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> that depends on what they see as the most important. obviously some see the friendship as the most important.


Yes, that has just really dawned on me.

I do see folks saying that their friends are too important. That they have seen each other through spouses and other issues. I get it.

This seems an important point worth noting!

I do feel like an @$$hole telling Virginia there is no Santa Claus. I do feel like a jerk pushing an agenda. It really is that I am trying to tell them the bridge they are hoping for up ahead has been washed away.

I would just hate to have them telling their hubby something like, "you know that @$$hole on TAM told me you would pull something like this!"

All one can hope for is that when some of these things start to happen they might go, "wait a minute, that jerk on TAM said something about this. I better cut this guy off before it goes too far."

Trying to be the "slippery when wet sign" I guess.


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## VostroDH

Well, I think it depends on how much two people trust each other and the health of the relationship. My husband has always had women friends and I have male friends but generally speaking we didn't go out with them alone unless the other had given the ok. The husband was the one to fall prey to an EA and that was because our relationship started going downhill.


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## Entropy3000

VostroDH said:


> Well, I think it depends on how much two people trust each other and the health of the relationship. My husband has always had women friends and I have male friends but generally speaking we didn't go out with them alone unless the other had given the ok. The husband was the one to fall prey to an EA and that was because our relationship started going downhill.


Sometimes a chicken an egg thing. Does one fall into an EA because there was a problem or is there a problem because one falls into an EA? I suspect it is a spiraling thing. We see EAs in good marriages and bad. But for sure when a marriage has stress having opposite sex friends to save the day is a double edged sword. For sure they will be there. Ready to comfort.

ALL marriages go through stress. It is a normal cycle of dealing with what life throws at us.

Was his EA with someone from his work or one of those friends?


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## that_girl

That's called dating.

No, hubs won't be dating anyone while married and neither will I...unless it's each other.


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## Jeff/BC

Entropy3000 said:


> Anyone who is not in an open marriage scenario ok with this kind of dating?


OK, Carol and I are in a "sort of open" marriage now. But really, it's more open for me than her. Still, I'd have no compunctions about her watching movies at a male friends house or <insert plausible scenario you dream up here>.

The same has been true long before our marriage turned weird. We started out pretty normal but this sort of thinking has never been a feature of our marriage.


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## Jeff/BC

Entropy3000 said:


> Others can and do all too often. It is common to see young folks have an ideal of total trust is what marriage is about. Not always young but very common.


You REALLY need to let this go. So Carol and I are 57 and 48 respectively. We've been a couple for 17 years and married for 15 of them. Things seem to be getting better and better year by year. At what age and at how many years of marriage do we gain credibility?

Why can't you believe that this sort of thinking just has no place in our marriage or our brains? We both agree that if we even STARTED to think like this our marriage would already be so broken that divorce would be a great choice.

Everyone is not you.

*edited to add*
Note that I do not necessarily think that other couples can or should do what we do. That's not the point. The point is that just because YOU can't imagine my marriage doesn't mean that it cannot exist.

And adding further, I gave Carol the most outlandish scenario I could think of that didn't directly involve sex. "What if the model gorgeous 30 year old at work invited me and me alone to go nude hot tubbing with her at her private cottage in the woods." Carol's response? "It'd be good for you. You need to do more things like that." Note that her response has nothing to do with our alternative and semi-open marriage. The same would've been true pretty much any time after the first year or two.. maybe even before then.

By the way, I'd be fine with the similar situation in reverse and again, having nothing to do with any open-ness.


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## Entropy3000

Jeff/BC said:


> OK, Carol and I are in a "sort of open" marriage now. But really, it's more open for me than her. Still, I'd have no compunctions about her watching movies at a male friends house or <insert plausible scenario you dream up here>.
> 
> The same has been true long before *our marriage turned weird.* We started out pretty normal but this sort of thinking has never been a feature of our marriage.


I had you in mind when I posted this. LOL.


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## Entropy3000

Jeff/BC said:


> You REALLY need to let this go. So Carol and I are 57 and 48 respectively. We've been a couple for 17 years and married for 15 of them. Things seem to be getting better and better year by year. At what age and at how many years of marriage do we gain credibility?
> 
> Why can't you believe that this sort of thinking just has no place in our marriage or our brains? We both agree that if we even STARTED to think like this our marriage would already be so broken that divorce would be a great choice.
> 
> Everyone is not you.


I had you in mind in particular but also others in general when I posted this.

I am 57. Been married 35 years. I made my worst choices at your stage in marriage. That was just me. I learned from them. I was younger when I made them. I do not dwell on your marriage. You are just outspoken about your views about being sort of open.

Realize that at least one of the people posting this is not married and claims to still be a virgin. Others are getting divorced for other reasons and still another had their husband fall into an EA. Anoher never admitted to dating. Just hanging out with friends.

It is very common with young folks who are still hanging out with high school friends yet "married" to be very naive about what marriage is. Some may indeed want an open marriage. So they could say my spouse and I have an open marriage but these are our boundaries. 

So indeed no I will not get off of this. The fact is that having experience in life and in a real marriage is quite different from imagining what it should or might be. It is naivete and idealism. In your case you should indeed know better. So you have made your choices with eyes wide open.

Most young couples are still in their infancy of figuring it out. I agree that we never figure it out altogether.

Lets make note that you go on record ( in a sort of open marriage ) see no problems with what some would refer to dating others. Hanging out with members of the opposite sex is ok.

That said, you have also gone on record that when your wife is propositioned she is to have them call you and explain what they wish to do with your wife and ask you permission to do so. If I have this wrong I sincerely apologize.

I just want to be clear we are not just talking about having friends. We are talking about what amounts to dating other people. A couple choosing to that is cool but lets not be vague about what is going on. Lets not call it hanging out with friends. That is unclear. Lets call it hanging out with an opposite sex friend and spending one on one private time with them.

You are hosest to admit to this. That is very cool. Others kinda kibitz and use vague wording when they really are wanting to cake eat a bit.

But to answer your question. I think you gain credibility over time. Not being married has pretty much zero credibility. It takes a few years to wise up. Sometimes it is more about dealing with events than time itself. I think once a couple has gone through soem tough times that gain some real credibility. Rough times does not mean marriage trouble per se. It is common for single friends to have all sorts of advice for their married friends concerning marriage. Kinda like giving advice to an astronaut about going into space.

Smart people learn from their mistakes. Really smart people learn from others mistakes.

I also think what you do in your marriage is fine for you. But it is good for folks to be able to see what your marriage is all about in the context of your advice.

It makes sense that you would agree to couples dating. So I get it.


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## Love Song

I speak from experience when I say that a platonic friendship of the opposite sex can work while in a marriage.

When it comes to my male friends I have clear boundaries. There are things I could do with a female friend that I can not with a male friend. But I truly enjoy having both for the reason that guys are such different friends than women are. 

I may or may not discuss things about my marriage with a guy friend. It honestly depends on how well I know and trust the guy and how well I know what his intentions are. I have to be sure I always make myself clear (so that I am not misunderstood) that however frustrated I may be with my husband, I still want to work through it with my husband. Sometimes I will mention to a guy friend something my husband does and ask his opinion from a males perspective why my husband is the way he is. Taking this approach has helped me to understand my husband better.

That being said I know that there are some guys who will never have truly platonic friendships with a woman because they don't fell that they can. That type of guy might pretend to want a friendship but in my experience these are the guys that have ulterior motives. They say you are just a friend but are really waiting for the right opportunity. I've come to see a pattern of being more clingy from these guys. Not all of them but usually they are. 

Now even though I do have male friendships they NEVER come before my husband just as my female friendships do not. I will not cancel a date with my husband to do something with a male friend. 

Also I am very transparent in my friendships with guys. My husband can ask me anything about what we talk about, when I see him, etc. He knows all of this information. And sometimes he will try to warn me "I think this guy likes you" and because we are a team I will have my guard up with this person. And when this person starts dropping hints, I drop them. 

I'm a very social person and thankfully my husband has not tried to change me. That would only cause problems. But I have strong boundaries and my husband always comes first.


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## Entropy3000

An in your case it was actually your husbands best friend who groped you and wanted a threesome with you. So he has been friend challenged for sure. We know this was not your fault. Your husband had an idiot for a best friend.

Does your husband know before you are going to go out to see one of your male friends? I see he is free to ask about it, but does he know up front?

To be clear what are those activities? Lunch. Dinner. Hang out at his place? Are these single guys? Most of us have opposite sex friends. But it varies in the interactions.

You indicate you would not cancel a date with your husband for your friends, but have you ever told your hubby not you cannot go because you are going over to Bob's house and hangout?


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## Love Song

Entropy3000 said:


> An in your case it was actually your husbands best friend who groped you and wanted a threesome with you. So he has been friend challenged for sure. We know this was not your fault. Your husband had an idiot for a best friend.


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## Jeff/BC

Entropy3000 said:


> But it is good for folks to be able to see what your marriage is all about in the context of your advice.


I totally agree. I've said about as much about my the weirdness in my marriage as is appropriate here. I've at least tried to offer disclosure within the boundaries that would be acceptable here.

My point remains though. The elements you're discussing here have nothing to do with our alternative arrangement. That started maybe 11 years into the marriage. We had a decade when such things were unthinkable. But still, this concept of "trust" that you're talking about is not how we see it.

Even further, while it's true that certain situations portrayed here don't directly apply to us, there are still lots and lots of ways in which we can cheat... act with significant dishonor betraying the trust of our partner. We're not living in some wild wild west, no-rules free-for-all scenario. We are still bounded by things like love, honor and commitment. There are plenty of ways to betray.

Neither of us believe those ways are likely enough to worry about. We both think lightning strikes and asteroid impacts are of significantly greater concern.

Not everyone has to see the measure of trust the way you do. Everyone who disagrees is not necessarily either naive or too alternative to count. Again, the same was true of us long before any weirdness.

Some of us.. me in particular... might choose betrayal over your concept of trust. I could survive betrayal -- it would hurt, I'd down a few gallons of ben & jerrys, but eventually I'd cope. I could never endure a marriage with the kind of trust you talk about.


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## Entropy3000

Jeff, I never said anyone has to see it as I do. You seem to be a bit challenged by this forum. But I do wish to share my perspective. I also wish to understand other peoples perspectives.

It is Talk About Marriage. This particualr topic is very fundamental and important. It is a nice break from talking to people who have already been in the train wreck.

It is my way to ask questions. There is a broad range between asking are opposite sex friends ok and a full blown open marriage. They are infinitley different questions. There is a broad swath in between. So I ask questions about the shades of gray because people can say very similar things and be envisioning quite different things. Folks use vague terms like hanging out with friends. So is this a a way of winking and indicating that there is dating going on? I don't think so. But I could be wrong. It could be that what folks are saying works for them is indeed dating. I am not judging them but I am asking them to be clear about what they mean. I think this is all about real marriages and where folks put their boundaries. So what is ok with opposite sex friends and what is not? Big territory to choose from. Is this not a good forum for folks to clearly state what their boundaries are? That could be very helpful for other folks.

So what does hanging out really mean? I could construe that to mean going over freinds house and cuddling up on the couch together. In a brotherly way of course. But it could be just meeting for lunch. It could mean sleeping on the couch overnight. It could mean meeting with a group of friends.

I do not have to agree with you and you do not have to agree with me. In many ways we validate each other.


----------



## Love Song

Entropy3000 said:


> An in your case it was actually your husbands best friend who groped you and wanted a threesome with you. So he has been friend challenged for sure. We know this was not your fault. Your husband had an idiot for a best friend.
> 
> Does your husband know before you are going to go out to see one of your male friends? I see he is free to ask about it, but does he know up front?
> 
> To be clear what are those activities? Lunch. Dinner. Hang out at his place? Are these single guys? Most of us have opposite sex friends. But it varies in the interactions.
> 
> You indicate you would not cancel a date with your husband for your friends, but have you ever told your hubby not you cannot go because you are going over to Bob's house and hangout?



Does my husband know before I go for an activity (not sex) with a guy? 

It depends. If it was planned then yes my husband will know beforehand. Another reason I like to tell him beforehand is so that if he has a problem with the activity or anything I can change plans. My husband has actually said to me before "I would like to be able to do that with you first." So he may not have a problem with the particular person but regardless there is usually a time to talk about it before the activity. 

But sometimes things come up unexpectedly like having lunch at work with (I've had that happen before when I was working) a male coworker. My husband didn't know this beforehand but I told him after. He had a few questions as he always does and that was that. 

What are the activities??

I've done lunch, non romantic dinners with several people, concerts, hanging out at his place. For me it's not strictly about the activity, it's about who all is there. Some things are ok to do one on one but other activities are not. And yes some of my guy friends are single and some are married. One guy that I met was involved but the relationship didn't last so he is now my single friend. I talk to a lot of people so it varies. 

Have I ever told my husband that I cant go do such and such with him because I'm going to do something with Bob?

No and this is another reason he needs to know my plans in advance. I expect him not to plan anything when I already have plans, the same with my female friendships and plans with them. 

For male and female friendships while married, I think the key is communication. If ever my husband has an issue with any thing about it he can talk to me and he knows he can. He knows I put him first and he has no reason to feel there is a threat from anyone. Once he asked me to just not go out so much. He said that he missed me and that he would like me to stop going out so much. He wanted to do more with me. I slowed down because for me my marriage is first and what he was asking wasn't unreasonable.


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## Entropy3000

Love Song said:


> Does my husband know before I go for an activity (not sex) with a guy?
> 
> It depends. If it was planned then yes my husband will know beforehand. Another reason I like to tell him beforehand is so that if he has a problem with the activity or anything I can change plans. My husband has actually said to me before "I would like to be able to do that with you first." So he may not have a problem with the particular person but regardless there is usually a time to talk about it before the activity.
> 
> But sometimes things come up unexpectedly like having lunch at work with (I've had that happen before when I was working) a male coworker. My husband didn't know this beforehand but I told him after. He had a few questions as he always does and that was that.
> 
> What are the activities??
> 
> I've done lunch, non romantic dinners with several people, concerts, hanging out at his place. For me it's not strictly about the activity, it's about who all is there. Some things are ok to do one on one but other activities are not. And yes some of my guy friends are single and some are married. One guy that I met was involved but the relationship didn't last so he is now my single friend. I talk to a lot of people so it varies.
> 
> Have I ever told my husband that I cant go do such and such with him because I'm going to do something with Bob?
> 
> No and this is another reason he needs to know my plans in advance. I expect him not to plan anything when I already have plans, the same with my female friendships and plans with them.
> 
> For male and female friendships while married, I think the key is communication. If ever my husband has an issue with any thing about it he can talk to me and he knows he can. He knows I put him first and he has no reason to feel there is a threat from anyone. Once he asked me to just not go out so much. He said that he missed me and that he would like me to stop going out so much. He wanted to do more with me. I slowed down because for me my marriage is first and what he was asking wasn't unreasonable.


Thank you for your candor and not getting upset with my question. We have a much better view of what you are talking about now of what works for you guys.


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## Love Song

Entropy3000 said:


> Thank you for your candor and not getting upset with my question. We have a much better view of what you are talking about now of what works for you guys.


Your welcome Entropy I didn't mind at all.


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## Jeff/BC

Entropy3000 said:


> I do not have to agree with you and you do not have to agree with me. In many ways we validate each other.


Agreed. In fact I sincerely doubt either of us can be said to be "right" or "wrong". It's merely two different life experiences with two people evaluating things differently.

I don't argue you're right to see things as you choose -- for you. But when it goes further than that... when it begins to read like your viewpoint is the only sane and sensible one... that's when I stepped in.

I do have an alternate viewpoint regarding trust and I'm willing to plant the flag in that ground and defend it. I don't need to deny your flag in your ground but I'm not abandoning mine.

Yes, both Carol and I can have friends of the opposite sex and that has nothing to do with alternative anything except, perhaps, for trust.


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## Goldmember357

In my experience no not at all it rarely rarely works. Now having friends that you and your spouse both hang out with and they are a couple that can work of course than there is a risk but if you two only meet them than it is different. 

Know Self Respecting woman who is worth something would keep set friends and continue to see knowing it hurts and bothers her spouse

and 

Know self respecting man who is worth anything would see set friend and continue to see them knowing it hurts the spouse. 


To fight over such a thing shows more than a platonic interest in set friend. However this in my opinion only works in marriages when you are dating unless a very long term relationship its rather hard to regulate control friends and nor should you as when you date you need to be open minded also dating is PROCESS OF ELIMINATION .


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## Goldmember357

Entropy3000 said:


> This has been covered a bunch on the forum. Ok, ladies maybe you can friend zone guys and keep it that way. But whether you want to accept it or not those guys are there ready and willing to fill the gap your hubby or you leave. Guys do not invest time in women unless they are at some fundamental level interested. Not saying that is all they are there for but they do enjoy dating you even though you are married. Friend meet our needs. That is why they are friends. We bond with them. That is all well and good but if the boundaries are unclear then you are taking a huge risk.
> 
> *Spouses may come and go but friends are forever.* :scratchhead: This is a choice of priorities. Somewhat self fullfilling perhaps.
> 
> It is one thing to have oppositie sex friends. It is another when they are competing for time with your spouse. When you hang out with them. Have lunch, coffee and movie dates. Don't get me wrong I have not doubt it would be all sorts of fun to be able to have the benefits of marriage and get to date other people too. I just know that can't work for me. It does work for folks that have a more open view of marriage. And that is just fine.
> 
> So is it ok for a spouse to have one on one movie dates at the other persons house? You know just hangout late and maybe sleep on the couch if they have too much to drink.
> 
> I am just trying to find out where the boundaries are.
> If it is ok to have these friends where are the boundaries? Is the boundary just what ever feels right? Is it ok to discuss marital and sexual issues.
> 
> Is it ok to leave a note for hubby telling him you are over at your friends house and for him not to wait up? Or tell him oh babe sorry you made time for me today but I am going out with Dave. He is having some trouble with Laura and needs some advice. Besides he gives such great back massages. LOL.


Well first of all "friend zone" does not exist its rather a myth and the fact some people use it or define it as some inescapable cruel zone women place men is ridiculous.


But yes i would agree with you

I feel most mature men and most mature women realize what you just said to be for the most part true. In addition many studies exist and research has found that people even women often almost always make close close friends with someone they find physically attractive and they can connect with on an emotional level. 

Is it any wonder why a huge huge portion/percentage of relationships start first as friendships? 

How often a friendship turns into dating?

How often a friendship turns into a relationship?

How often a friendship turns into a sexual relationship?

How often a friendship turns into Love?

How often a friendship turns into a marriage?

Most women make close friends with a male that fits their needs on an emotional level and at first more often than not they found him physically attractive. Most of the times "stereotypes FYI" the "hot" cheerleader will not be friends with the obese video game nerd) sorry but its true most of the time. Likewise most guy's are not going to become really really close friends with a girl unless they find her attractive on a emotional and physical level. The difference is that when it comes to not very close friendships women can and tend to easily be able to communicate and associate with males they consider "Friends" but not "close friends" they can mingle with the "friends" and never feel an attraction to them. This is because of many reasons and she has not selected him individually and chosen him to be the one to get closer to her on an emotional level. On the other hand most males who have a female friend but she is not a "very close friend".. The males who have the female who is "friend" But not close friend is a girl they put most of their time focusing on her looks. Since she has not divulged personal and deep stories and since they are not close on a very interpersonal level he could care less about her non deep and her casual talk he will only associate with her if she is attractive. 



Often when a female is first attracted to a male and she likes him but he does not initially like her she will always have those feelings if a relationship never ensues. So say a female likes a male and is of course physically attractive to him he eventually turns over and likes her they get to know each other and than they decide on a platonic relationship or a small short term relationship failed but they remain friends. Or for some reason she losses feelings really likes him and the emotional connection that ensues but she lost feelings for a relationship desire with him. Lets say they remain friends and he moves on and she moves on or they had a little thing that never materialized. Flash forward years' later these two are friends. Do you know what will eventually happen 9/10 times?

A relationship of some sort will ensue between these two as the feelings of pent up attraction to one another have been going on to long. Although they have remain detached likely from huge personal feelings and turned those away the constant connection and strengthening of an emotional connection as well as the fact they were previously very physically attracted to one another will cause the inevitable to happen. And what will that be?
The female realizes "wow, ____ and is a really really amazing guy i like him all these feelings i had before are back and its not like when we had our little thing or attraction i really like him"

The male realizes "wow ___is a great girl i cant believe i never initially liked her but now that i can see through her non verbal cues that she digs me and she is to confess it my feelings have returned, i have always been attracted to her but i lost the emotional connection" 



The only times i have seen a relationship that is so close remain purely platonic is friendships that date back from the sandbox days. That can only really occur to since kids are not sexually attracted to one another. However if a close friendship from High School or a close "ex" or "love" or friendship that never turned into the relationship both of you wanted but at different times" if any of those friendships carry over into a marriage and the people still meet you can more than likely bet on something happening between the two. 

I think its great friendship i am not opposed to that in dating but in a marriage its bound for trouble. Its obvious the older posters and those with more experience know this and yet some people want to remain in denial and play devil's advocate against what is widely the truth accepted and the norm. Of course there will always be individual rare differences but that is an anomaly.


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## NextTimeAround

I can talk about women who wanted to be "friends" with my husband. They were short with me. At parties, if I wanted to join my husband in conversation, they shut down. If they call the house, they want to be passed immediately to my husband. Then cellphones became more widespread, so they call more often on the cellphone and by pass me completely.

I learn about how my time has been committed through my husband. No joint discussion about the weekend with the female friend. A couple of times I would call them to finalise things, they call my husband to tell him that I called them. Now what can they do for me?

For whatever, reason, my (EX) husband seemed not to have a problem with this.


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## NextTimeAround

Goldmember357 said:


> Often when a female is first attracted to a male and she likes him but he does not initially like her she will always have those feelings if a relationship never ensues. So say a female likes a male and is of course physically attractive to him he eventually turns over and likes her they get to know each other and than they decide on a platonic relationship or a small short term relationship failed but they remain friends. Or for some reason she losses feelings really likes him and the emotional connection that ensues but she lost feelings for a relationship desire with him. Lets say they remain friends and he moves on and she moves on or they had a little thing that never materialized. Flash forward years' later these two are friends. Do you know what will eventually happen 9/10 times?
> 
> A relationship of some sort will ensue between these two as the feelings of pent up attraction to one another have been going on to long. Although they have remain detached likely from huge personal feelings and turned those away the constant connection and strengthening of an emotional connection as well as the fact they were previously very physically attracted to one another will cause the inevitable to happen. And what will that be?
> The female realizes "wow, ____ and is a really really amazing guy i like him all these feelings i had before are back and its not like when we had our little thing or attraction i really like him"
> 
> The male realizes "wow ___is a great girl i cant believe i never initially liked her but now that i can see through her non verbal cues that she digs me and she is to confess it my feelings have returned, i have always been attracted to her but i lost the emotional connection"


Interesting description that you put here as this is the "friendship" that my bf was having that brought me here. Because of course, anywhere else you go either IRL or on other relationship message boards, you be vilified for being immature, selfish and insecure. Oh dear.

Things are going well between me and my bf. HE cleaned house of her and she is well out of his life. However, I am always curious as to what was actually going on between them.

Before he met me, he knew her for about 4 months (max) and was trying to date her. The e-mails and text messages paint a rather sadistic woman ie "I don't know when I will be free, call me back next week....."

So he moved on. But he stayed in touch with her since I could see an FB private conversation between him and her that he started on the day of our first date. She texted him often by my standards, regularly two or three a day. Then he told her he met me and thinks I'm kind of nice. So she while professing to be his friend, she gets him to talk about me......from "friend to "confidant."

I went to visit my family for 3 weeks at this time. So for someone who is kind of lazy at making friends, he welcomed her invitations to hang out with her friends. 

I am really intrigued by the text messages between them. She was asking about me all the time. At first he acted cool about it, like don't worry about her since I don't know how I feel about her. Somehow she managed to convince him to take a trip with her and also to diss me the day I came back from my family visit. 

HE told her how many times we had had sex. Also about an incident where my bf hadn't emptied his trash so I was worried as to when that condom was used. But in hindsight, I also realise he turned down sex with me on a couple of occasions.

My bf tried to frame his dealing with her as "Just friends." And asked me do you mind if I go out with other women but "just as friends." 

I started going cool on him and then he started showing me more attention. According to him, there was a point at which he realised she wanted more than friendship and he was no longer interested in her that way.

I can see from the messages between them. She accused him first of leading her on. Then she mentioned that she was dating another guy who was really into her....she didn't want to lead him on....why don't she and my bf date again. Then she told him to drop me because obviously since we weren't having sex, I had no interest in him. 

I told my bf that that remark more than anything else is a good reason why I should never have to waste my time with her as once he came clean about her, he wanted to frame her as a friend. 

What is not clear to me and I know I will never get the answer from my bf, and that is, was he ever seriously considering dating her again and thought to use my presence as a way to increase her interest in him. 

And it is also possible that age and experience had some impact her. The "friend" in question was 29, so not that far away from a college coed lifestyle and beliefs. 

In any case, while I am trying to catalogue the acceptable behaviors and boundaries for opposite sex friends, it easy enough to see that that friendship would never make the cut.


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## Love Song

You know what I dont like? I dont like when people disguise themselves as "friends" when they really have other intentions. Because then it's the people who are honest who get a bad rap for it. People who know me know that I am a social person. When I go to a new place I have to explain myself to people all over again. 

My point?? Dont mistake dishonest intentions for the real thing. There is a difference. It would be nice if people stopped lumping us all together. 

You can write extremely long posts if you want to about why it wont work for SOME people. But there's a difference between someone with boundaries and good intentions and someone without. 

My $0.02


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## Cee Paul

For the record that I did not mention earlier; my wife and I do have opposite sex friends who are maybe co-workers or neighbors, but they are not people we just run around to the malls & go shopping with or to a ball game or ever hangout with apart from each other.


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## Love Song

Cee Paul said:


> For the record that I did not mention earlier; my wife and I do have opposite sex friends who are maybe co-workers or neighbors, but they are not people we just run around to the malls & go shopping with or to a ball game or ever hangout with apart from each other.


Well is it possible for you to go with them? Have you asked her? What does she think about it?


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## NextTimeAround

Love Song said:


> You know what I dont like?* I dont like when people disguise themselves as "friends" when they really have other intentions. *Because then it's the people who are honest who get a bad rap for it. People who know me know that I am a social person. When I go to a new place I have to explain myself to people all over again.
> 
> My point?? Dont mistake dishonest intentions for the real thing. There is a difference. It would be nice if people stopped lumping us all together.
> 
> You can write extremely long posts if you want to about why it wont work for SOME people. But there's a difference between someone with boundaries and good intentions and someone without.
> 
> My $0.02


So can you tell us how to differentiate between those who have sincere intentions and those who don't?


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## Entropy3000

The thing is that most situations that turn into issues are with two people with good intentions. I think having good boundaries can go a long way with this. I suspect for many of us those boundaries would be seen as overly restrictive to many. After all. We are just friends. When folks say this they do mean it at least early on. Sure there are predators but it is not this black and white. You basically have two people who care for each other. They bond. In a very natural way that feels innocent enough. I think those that should be most concerned are the loving, compassionate and caring people. They will be the most vulnerable to getting in over their heads. Then they start justifying their feelings.

I feel the disconnect here is when we say guys will only invest their time in women who interest them. This does not mean they intend to cheat. It makes them a "potential" predator. I guess that is a puzzle for some. It should not be. Attraction is normal. Close freindships are a strong bond and can become in conflict esepcially during marital stress. Marital stress happens. Friends start meeting more needs. There does not have to be an intent to take anything to the next level. The choices that are made are very subtle. Some people can handle this better than others.

I frankly do not have the time to invest in other close relationships beyond my wife and family. Folks in my situation would then be most vulnerable to a workplace EA.


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## Entropy3000

Cee Paul said:


> For the record that I did not mention earlier; my wife and I do have opposite sex friends who are maybe co-workers or neighbors, but they are not people we just run around to the malls & go shopping with or to a ball game or ever hangout with apart from each other.


So this is a good thing then. Right? Is this something you guys want to do?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

No, not in my marriage. My husband fully agrees.


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## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> So no my wife and I have always had a hard boundary of no dating other people.
> 
> .


Just because you meet / go out with a friend of yours [opposite sex] doesn't mean that you're dating her.
It all comes down to your definition of "dating".


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## Cee Paul

Love Song said:


> Well is it possible for you to go with them? Have you asked her? What does she think about it?


We both agree that it's inappropriate and can be a bad look for a marriage, and not something either one of us would be comfortable with. And we trust each other 1,000% but it's OTHER people no matter who they are that we don't trust, and so why put yourselves and others in an akward situation like that.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you meet / go out with a friend of yours [opposite sex] doesn't mean that you're dating her.


Yes. I am saying it is a date. What is the difference? Intent? How is it not a date? In fact another way of saying you are dating someone is to say you are going out with someone.

Realize that "we are just friends" is what we all say in an EA. And we mean it. To the people involved at least in the early stages they see nothing wrong with seeing each other.

Why would I as a married man want to hangout with a single woman at her apratment without my wife? What needs are being met that a male friend cannot meet? Folks will come up with a whole list of why women can be good friends. I get those needs met by my wife.

Realize also I am speaking as someone who was in an EA. And while everyone is different we can see these same choices being made again and again. I thought I was bullet proof. I thought my character was unbreakable. But what I learned was the power of the brain chemicals. They make you feel everything is ok. People can say, that they are different and take their chances. But look at the divorce rate. Look at the infidelity. Sure there are scummy people in the world. But it is very naive to think that the majority of these people are not just like you and I and made some very poor choices and have very poor boundaries. That said my wife is the one that called me on this, very early. She had every right to do so.

So why are we meeting up with single people? Why are we meeting up with married people? There are nuances to each situation.

Why are the spouses seeking out indiviuduals of the opposite sex for one on one isolated time? Again I have female friends but I do not go over to their homes for one on one time. In my marriage that would be Inapprorpriate, Unfaithful AND Cheating behavior. For some marriages it would be just either Inappropriate or unfaithful. I grant that this is fine in some marriages.

So as someone who is not yet married. Claims to be a virgin. What do you think is appropriate in a marriage? I call this dating but what are you talking about? Do we just call it going out? I guess I hear folks say hanging out.

So you are a wife. What activities are you talking about doing with a single guy? Is it ok for you to go over to his apartment in the evening and hangout? What will you two be doing and / or talking about? Why is he investing his time in you. Are you that awesome that instead of prusuing single women he needs to spend his time with you?


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## NextTimeAround

lovelygirl said:


> Just because you meet / go out with a friend of yours [opposite sex] doesn't mean that you're dating her.
> It all comes down to your definition of "dating".


Suppose your definition of dating and his definition of dating differ. Even on relationship message boards that don;t discuss infidelity, there is still a lot of confusion --even among single people "going out" with single people-- what a "date" is. Which then of course leads people to wonder if they're "leading someone on" and whether because of that "they owe that person" something. 

You keep assuming that you live in a perfect world where everyone has the same understanding as you do as well as the same intentions.


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## Entropy3000

I know young women can hangout with guys and consider them friend zoned. They can at the same time be dating ( in their minds ) others.

So I see how some women feel they can continue thier single behavior after marriage. 

But again what is this single guy doing hanging out with a now married woman? Alone with her.

So for those rare women at 24 who are no longer virgins, how many of thier close friends have had zero sexual interest.

Is it ok for a women to have "dated" a guy when single and then still hang out with him after marriage?

How about an ex lover? 

Is this ok as long as you tell your hubby you are just close friends because you feel that is true ... now?

How would a spouse know if a given friend has been an initmate friend in the past?

Then their are couples who "double date". Cool. Very common. Is it ok for the couples to schedule one on one time with the oppiste sex friend? Just another common scenario. I think there are people who would be ok with this and not with the non mutual friends. A lot of couple pull this off. But it can get very awkward too.


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## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes. I am saying it is a date. What is the difference. Intent? How is it not a date? In fact another way of saying you are dating someone is to say you are going out with someone.


You and me have different definitions of the word "date"
When I say _going ou_t I meant - to have a drink as friends or to drink some coffee and just talk like friends do -- no matter if they are of the opposite sex. 
I DIDN'T MEAN TO GO OVER TO THE APARTMENT OF YOUR SINGLE LADY FRIEND. 
That would be very inappropriate to me and that's what I would call a DATE.

But just a single hang out or a coffee is not a date - as long as the intentions from both parties of the opposite sex are innocent and don't intent to go further than just being friends. 




> Why would I as a married man want to hangout with a single woman at her apartment without my wife? What needs are being met that a male friend cannot meet? Folks will come up with a whole list of why women can be good friends. I get those needs met by my wife.


that's what I call a date but I wasn't talking about this.
What I quoted here has nothing to do with "just being friends".




> So why are we meeting up with single people?


When you go out for a coffee/drink with your opposite-sex-friend neither of you has to do that as single people.
It all depends on how you treat / see each other while you're meeting up. [Which has to do with the intentions I mentioned above]




> I call this dating but what are talking about?


This thread is about FRIENDS of the opposite sex and not dating while married. 
Apparently, you see think that _dating_ is equal to _going out with a friend of the opposite sex_ - which IN MY OPINION is not always true. 



> So you are a wife. What activities are you talking about doing with a single guy? Is it ok for you to go over to his apartment in the evening and hangout? What will you two be doing and / or talking about? Why is he investing his time in you. Are you that awesome that instead of prusuing single women he needs to spend his time with you?


These questions are fair enough. 
Obviously, going over to his apartment would be considered as dating and I'm totally against it. BUT Going out for a coffee or something like that is not wrong in my opinion. 
It doesn't mean the guy has to be single. He could be married, just like me. 
As for what we'd be talking about, that really depends on the friendship and the "closeness" that we would have with each other. I guess there wouldn't be much to talk about and as a result the time spent with him alone at the bar wouldn't last more than 30 minutes. 
I'm not saying I'd meet him every day but once in a while would be okay.
If I'm his very good friend then he could talk to me about the single women he's dating and ask my opinion as a girl. I'm sure this topic would be very interesting to me and him. So yes, I could be THAT awesome that he wants my opinion as a woman about those ladies.


----------



## Entropy3000

But you see that this thread has run the gamut.

Some folks are talking about spending isolated alone time like in someones apartment.

You are talking about coffee in a public place.

Others are in a kinda open relationship.

This is a very wide range to which "can spouses have oppoisite sex friends" the answer for all is yes. Yet they are talking about completely different things. I say spouses can have opposite sex friends. I think it is unwise for them to be close friends. It is about where the boundaries are.

I suggest that for you and you only, not others on this thread, that it is very possible that when you get married you will probably not have the time or inclination to go have coffee with some single guy.
That said, your hubby may not be comfortable with even this level. Then again this may be fine. 

I suggest when you do decide to marry that you guys do His Needs Her Needs together and define these things. Because you both may be thrilled that having opposite sex friends is fine in your relationship. But perhaps what that means to each of you may be quite different. It is also very common for folks to want to have complete trust and all of that. Very idealistic and noble in the beginning of a marriage. Then as things go along one or the other realize that they are no so happy with what was agreed to. The couple then has to go back in and re-evaluate the boundaries.

Also how much FB and texting time will you be investing in these other men? Do you have a boundary around that? Usually this area is not very gray. In that the quantity of the exchanges become obvious. Sometimes it is the content that matters most but not always.

BTW. We have affairs with FRIENDS. OM / OW are usually friends. My wife is my best female friend. I am discounting those cheaters who go onto adult sites to hookup. They are not the people I am talking about. When we are dating we are dating friends. When we go out with someone they are a friend. There are also friends with benefits. And so on. The person who is going to challenge your husband for your attentions will be a friend of yours or a friend of his. Co-workers become friends.


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## RClawson

unbelievable said:


> A woman I could never have sex with would hold my interest about as much as a bowl of plastic fruit. If I know they are off-limits, what's the point in hanging out with them?


Thanks for the insight into your soul. I have more than a handful of female friends. They are women that I have met in the workplace. Over the space of twenty - five years I still have open communication with them, go to lunch every once and awhile and network with them frequently. I love and respect these women and their families. Some of them are quite attractive but guess what? I never wanted to get into their pants. 

My wife has never questioned it and if something crossed the lines I have no doubt she would let me know asap. If one of them came to me and said their husband was uncomfortable with us communicating then that would be the end of our interaction. After a couple of decades I am not expecting that to happen.


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## lovelygirl

You're totally right Entropy. I get your point perfectly well.
That's why I said I could meet my guy-friend once in a while (rarely) and he could meet his just as much because obviously in marriage [and in every other relationship] there's no time for everyone and you can't please everyone.
If your relationship/marriage is more important to you then other friends come in second/third place. 

Obviously, setting up boundaries for each other is very healthy for the relationship. If my husband wouldn't be okay with me meeting up with my guy-friend and if he HAS STRONG REASONS about why I should not meet up with this guy then I wouldn't meet him alone/at all.


----------



## Traggy

Wow, there are some pretty naive people here.

I know this has been said before and I just want to re-iterate this. 99% of the time the guy does not look at the relationship as platonic. Women can compartmentalize this stuff, guys want to breed. It is in our DNA.

You know what really bothers me? The word trust being thrown out here, like it is OK to hang out with the opposite sex because we trust one another. Yeah, in the early stages of marriage, when we are all very naive to these things and still very much in love without a lot of work, these things tend to work themselves out. 

But when things get ruff, the snake in the grass will pounce. The one waiting in the weeds being "just a friend" will make his move.

Come on people. Your spouse comes first and I swear to you, by telling him or her that "you don't trust me," when they get jealous with you hanging out with an opposite sex person, is a form of passive aggression mixed with some good old control.

It is called cake eating at its finest to me. Friends of the opposite sex do not work in marriages, when our DNA is telling us to BREED BREED BREED, every day and night. 

To each their own, I am sure we will see you down below in the divorce thread soon enough. 

Oh, my wife and her "just friends", whom has been around from the get go, are moving in together now.


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## cndmarriage

Having been in this very situation multiple times...I can honestly say......it depends on the person and whether they want to keep the friend at arms length or have it grow to more. My husband has had many friends that were girls. One of them who I absolutely trusted even went out one night with him alone after I was unable to go. However, this is not to be taken lightly. My husband also recently had a friend who was also married and it has turned into a huge mess. I had a problem with their relationship from the start and I was the one that was told it was ok because they were both married. He decided not to keep this one at arms length and I knew it. Yes, she would come over when we were both home but it didn't matter it was very obvious what was happening. My personal belief is yes, but both parties have to know ahead of time that you will keep them at arms length. Some people just aren't able to do that, or don't want to. There is a fine line and only you and your spouse can draw it. I believe that no one can tell the other person that they can't have a certain friend, all you can do is say that you are not comfortable with it and it is their choice on whether they respect you enough to respect your feelings. Always be open and honest without accusing and tell the other person how it makes you feel instead of saying "you" which puts anyone on the defensive.

I have guy friends but I don't spend alone time with them, I tell them up front I am a dedicated wife and I don't talk to them a ton.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

As a woman, I manage my male friendships always keeping in mind that yep they would like to take my pants off, it's no secret. Why would you want to be friends with someone who finds you unattractive? lol. Getting married doesn't change the way I would manage friendships, I would suppose that whether there is a ring on my finger or not my male friends would still like me to take my pants off for them. So, whatever. I think it's an issue if someone is naive enough to think that their male friends don't want to take their pants off, and mismanage boundaries...what I do is I am not friends with someone if we have nothing in common to talk about or do, that is not sex-based. So to have a kayaking friend or a friend who shares an interest in art, or in dance, or in movies, or someone who also programs in SQL or is starting their own business, or the kids are best friends and we sometimes go skiing or bicycling together...the thing is to have something of interest to distract from the pants coming off. Then you would continue to do that in a marriage or a relationship, and also use discretion in the setting, for instance if you are going to the movies together, meet at the movies, part ways at the movies.


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## NextTimeAround

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> As a woman, I manage my male friendships always keeping in mind that yep they would like to take my pants off, it's no secret. Why would you want to be friends with someone who finds you unattractive? lol. Getting married doesn't change the way I would manage friendships, I would suppose that whether there is a ring on my finger or not my male friends would still like me to take my pants off for them. So, whatever. I think it's an issue if someone is naive enough to think that their male friends don't want to take their pants off, and mismanage boundaries...what I do is I am not friends with someone if we have nothing in common to talk about or do, that is not sex-based. So to have a kayaking friend or a friend who shares an interest in art, or in dance, or in movies, or someone who also programs in SQL or is starting their own business, or the kids are best friends and we sometimes go skiing or bicycling together...the thing is to have something of interest to distract from the pants coming off. Then you would continue to do that in a marriage or a relationship, and also use discretion in the setting, for instance if you are going to the movies together, meet at the movies, part ways at the movies.


Do your male friends defer to your husband? Do they make it clear that they are inviting you out as a couple. Do your male friends only call/ text/ e-mail you on your own account or a shared account?


----------



## Bottled Up

This topic can be debated til' the end of time because the fact is there's no right or wrong answer to the question. The answers vary depending on what works for the individuals in each relationship. Some people are more protective about their territory and some are more carefree and/or trusting... we all have different methods that work for us. 

Some of the more trusting people can unfortunately get back-stabbed and that's an unfortunate end result of giving their gift of trust, but it's their risk to take in the first place. Others are minimal-risk takers and thus have more comfort in securing their world with tighter boundaries.

I myself am in an odd scenario where my wife is kind of introverted whereas I'm more of a social out-goer, so I have the advantage of my wife having only a few close girlfriends and no male friends whatsoever. Whereas for me I have always had a lot of female friends and co-workers who are females that I have hung out with in crowds before. But I never do one-on-one time with a female out of respect for my wife, despite her trust in me. She's never questioned me with another female and I've never abused her trust. It makes me feel good she trusts me, but I must say that since finding TAM and now understanding how easily and dangerously an EA can form sometimes right under one's nose, I am DEFINITELY more conscious of scenarios and environments around me and make darn sure I never place myself in a situation that would make my wife uncomfortable.

Let's just say I'm more "Awake" now. Thanks TAM!


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## scione

My wife had a friend of opposite sex, and then she cheated on me with him.


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## Entropy3000

I try to avoid the following but sometimes it happens when we travel.

I may for example have drinks with a female colleague at the airport while we wait for other colleagues. What I avoid is leaving with them, going back to the hotel and drinking in the lobbey bar just the two of us. Appearances matter here.

So typically if we are at the lobbey bar we try not to leave a man and a woman staying alone. Obviously they can if they choose. We try to make it a group of folks and limit the one on one in private.

Yes, keys get offered or the more subtle come up to the room for a drink.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> You're totally right Entropy. I get your point perfectly well.
> That's why I said I could meet my guy-friend once in a while (rarely) and he could meet his just as much because obviously in marriage [and in every other relationship] there's no time for everyone and you can't please everyone.
> If your relationship/marriage is more important to you then other friends come in second/third place.
> 
> Obviously, setting up boundaries for each other is very healthy for the relationship. If my husband wouldn't be okay with me meeting up with my guy-friend and if he HAS STRONG REASONS about why I should not meet up with this guy then I wouldn't meet him alone/at all.


His strong reasons may be that he is uncomortble with it. He may even say he finds it unacceptable. You are unlikely to get into specific reasons other than these. Some folks use the Policy Of Joint Agreement. Meaning then the other spouse has effectively veto power. Otherwise you get into a negotiation. Then you get into the ... trust me thing. Then he says I trust you but I do not trust the guy. Good times.

Now I will say that I have never had to have this negotiation with my wife. FWIW. She has had to have this with me. It comes down to integrity. At some point your boundaries are your boundaries.


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## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> His strong reasons may be that he is uncomortble with it. He may even say he finds it unacceptable. You are unlikely to get into specific reasons other than these. Some folks use the Policy Of Joint Agreement. Meaning then other spouse has effectively veto power. Otherwise you get into a negotiation.


He HAS TO explain why he finds it unacceptable or why he's not comfortable with it.
Sometimes partners have requests as "important" as whims or caprices which in my opinion should be ignored.


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## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Then he says I trust you but I do not trust the guy. Good times.


haha. yeah. Typical!


----------



## Entropy3000

Traggy said:


> Wow, there are some pretty naive people here.
> 
> I know this has been said before and I just want to re-iterate this. 99% of the time the guy does not look at the relationship as platonic. Women can compartmentalize this stuff, guys want to breed. It is in our DNA.
> 
> You know what really bothers me? The word trust being thrown out here, like it is OK to hang out with the opposite sex because we trust one another. Yeah, in the early stages of marriage, when we are all very naive to these things and still very much in love without a lot of work, these things tend to work themselves out.
> 
> But when things get ruff, the snake in the grass will pounce. The one waiting in the weeds being "just a friend" will make his move.
> 
> Come on people. Your spouse comes first and I swear to you, by telling him or her that "you don't trust me," when they get jealous with you hanging out with an opposite sex person, is a form of passive aggression mixed with some good old control.
> 
> It is called cake eating at its finest to me. Friends of the opposite sex do not work in marriages, when our DNA is telling us to BREED BREED BREED, every day and night.
> 
> To each their own, I am sure we will see you down below in the divorce thread soon enough.
> 
> Oh, my wife and her "just friends", whom has been around from the get go, are moving in together now.


I think a very good point here is that this may indeed tend to work early due to the in love dopamine we have with our spouse. It is strong and fresh. We want to keep that but invariably there are times that life intervenes and we are more vulnerable.

Excellent point.


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## NextTimeAround

Traggy said:


> Wow, there are some pretty naive people here.
> 
> I know this has been said before and I just want to re-iterate this. 99% of the time the guy does not look at the relationship as platonic. * Women can compartmentalize this stuff, guys want to breed. *It is in our DNA.
> 
> You know what really bothers me? The word trust being thrown out here, like it is OK to hang out with the opposite sex because we trust one another. Yeah, in the early stages of marriage, when we are all very naive to these things and still very much in love without a lot of work, these things tend to work themselves out.
> 
> But when things get ruff, the snake in the grass will pounce. The one waiting in the weeds being "just a friend" will make his move.
> 
> Come on people. Your spouse comes first and I swear to you, by telling him or her that "you don't trust me," when they get jealous with you hanging out with an opposite sex person, is a form of passive aggression mixed with some good old control.
> 
> It is called cake eating at its finest to me. Friends of the opposite sex do not work in marriages, when our DNA is telling us to BREED BREED BREED, every day and night.
> 
> To each their own, I am sure we will see you down below in the divorce thread soon enough.
> 
> Oh, my wife and her "just friends", whom has been around from the get go, are moving in together now.


And women value attention.

Even if a woman is not interested in "stealing" my partner lock stock and barrel, I also don't like that "low level" kind of distraction.

I don't want to find out that some woman is bragging that her male friend "treats her better than he treats his wife."

Or that he feels some kind of obligation to her whether that takes up his time, his finances, his social favors because they "are just friends" of some sort.....

LovelyGirl, have you ever wondered how sincere, pure, innocent your quest to have friends with men is? Do you have female friends at all? How's that going for you?

And when you are friends with men who have partners, how do you treat their partners?


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> He HAS TO explain why he finds it unacceptable or why he's not comfortable with it.
> Sometimes partners have requests as "important" as whims or caprices which in my opinion should be ignored.


Good luck with that. Why can't you just trust him? Trust them to help you protect the marriage. Err on the side of caution as opposed to risk.

You are not supposed to be at odds with your spouse. You should not ignore your spouse. They are supposed to be your number one concern. You are talking about a relationship you have with another man. Spouses have the right to feel the way they feel. If the marriage is the #1 priority then there is no issue.

Now you say this and yet you are not married and yet to have sex ... right? So you are not speaking from being in a realtionship and having a spouse. You just know that they will not control you and they have to have a reason for feeling certain way. Not that they would have any right to object?

It is one thing when a couple agrees to boundaries. It is another when they disagree. Something like this is so fundamental that doing HNHN before marriage is a good thing. If you cannot agree on this topic then I think getting married is a mistake.

So you are speaking from experience here or just in observing other married people?


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## Conrad

lovelygirl said:


> He HAS TO explain why he finds it unacceptable or why he's not comfortable with it.
> Sometimes partners have requests as "important" as whims or caprices which in my opinion should be ignored.


Are you willing to have him ignore yours?


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> haha. yeah. Typical!


And exactly the truth. I trust my wife plenty. I trust no man with her that is not her close relative.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> He HAS TO explain why he finds it unacceptable or why he's not comfortable with it.
> Sometimes partners have requests as "important" as whims or caprices which in my opinion should be ignored.


If you are not commited to your partner then do not get married. If my wife feels strongly about something I listen to her. I thought she was wrong when I was in my EA. I listened to her however because I loved her and trusted her. She is my wife. The last person I wish to hurt is my wife. I did however do just that, but thankfully I was not so far gone and listened to her about it. I was foolish and ended up hurting her. Don't be foolish and hurt your husband over this stuff. After going through withdrawal I saw she was right. Sometimes we need to listen to our spouse. We get cranialrectumitis otherwise. Spouses can see danger where we do not. Choose as best you can a spouse who is not a jerk. If you do no trust your spouse to not be cruel to you how can you trust them with opposite sex friends? Or better yet, why would someone stay married to a toxic spouse at all?

All this said, yes communication is key. The couple should talk it through. Yes you should ask for the reason. This is good because his issue may be something that can be dealt with. It may just be a further definition of a boundary. Maybe that is all that is needed. So certainly discuss this. I am just saying be prepared for this to come down to something that the other spouse feels crosses their boundaries. But at some point one has to wonder what type of bond does the spouse have with another person that they wish to risk their marriage over?


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## NextTimeAround

Entropy3000 said:


> I you are not commited to your partner then do not get married.





lovelygirl said:


> He HAS TO explain why he finds it unacceptable or why he's not comfortable with it.
> *Sometimes partners have requests as "important" as whims or caprices which in my opinion should be ignored*.


Well hopefully, you will find a partner who does not have a problem treating you with the some disdain.


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## CandieGirl

Jeff/BC said:


> You REALLY need to let this go. So Carol and I are 57 and 48 respectively. We've been a couple for 17 years and married for 15 of them. Things seem to be getting better and better year by year. At what age and at how many years of marriage do we gain credibility?
> 
> Why can't you believe that this sort of thinking just has no place in our marriage or our brains? We both agree that if we even STARTED to think like this our marriage would already be so broken that divorce would be a great choice.
> 
> Everyone is not you.
> 
> *edited to add*
> Note that I do not necessarily think that other couples can or should do what we do. That's not the point. The point is that just because YOU can't imagine my marriage doesn't mean that it cannot exist.
> 
> And adding further, I gave Carol the most outlandish scenario I could think of that didn't directly involve sex. "What if the model gorgeous 30 year old at work invited me and me alone to go nude hot tubbing with her at her private cottage in the woods." Carol's response? "It'd be good for you. You need to do more things like that." Note that her response has nothing to do with our alternative and semi-open marriage. The same would've been true pretty much any time after the first year or two.. maybe even before then.
> 
> By the way, I'd be fine with the similar situation in reverse and again, having nothing to do with any open-ness.


Perhaps Carol has a screw loose...not many people I know would be OK with that scenario, even if it is just fantasy planning. Some people I know would get into an argument just speaking of it hypothetically!


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## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> Perhaps Carol has a screw loose...not many people I know would be OK with that scenario, even if it is just fantasy planning. Some people I know would get into an argument just speaking of it hypothetically!


Fantasies aside my wife telling me she is going to do some nude modeling for a guy friend of hers is a non starter. Just an example.

Or her saying she is going over Bob's house and try out his new hot tub with him and his buddies and BTW they will all be in the nude. Ummm. How about freaking no. But thanks for bringing this up and not just doing it.

But the actual act of suggesting this would be a big problem in itself. For some folks no big deal.

Hokey Smokes!


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## CandieGirl

I'm thinking that outside of the TAM community, those of us who don't believe in op/sex friendships are in the minority.

After all, what's wrong with it if they're just friends? I can't tell you how many times I've heard this.


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## lovelygirl

NextTimeAround said:


> LovelyGirl, have you ever wondered how sincere, pure, innocent your quest to have friends with men is? Do you have female friends at all? How's that going for you?
> 
> And when you are friends with men who have partners, how do you treat their partners?


I have both female and male friends.
With some of my male friends their intentions were more than just friendship and with some other male friends it was pure frienship so that's why I believe in a pure frienship between male and female though it's very rare.


As for male friends who have partners, their partners feel jealous when I'm around because I'm very easy-going, friendly, smiley and such so I've learned to keep distance because my actions were misinterpreted. 
As for the way I treat their partners, I treat them the same way that I treat my male friends - I try to be friendly with their partners as well so that they won't think I'm hitting on my male friends.

EDIT: I never flirt with a guy who's already in a relationship - whether he's my friend of not. I try to respect their relationship.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> I have both female and male friends.
> With some of my male friends their intentions were more than just friendship and with some other male friends it was pure frienship so that's why I believe in a pure frienship between male and female though it's very rare.
> 
> 
> As for male friends who have partners, their partners feel jealous when I'm around because I'm very easy-going, friendly, smiley and such so I've learned to keep distance because my actions were misinterpreted.
> As for the way I treat their partners, I treat them the same way that I treat my male friends - I try to be friendly with their partners as well so that they won't think I'm hitting on my male friends.
> 
> EDIT: I never flirt with a guy who's already in a relationship - whether he's my friend of not. I try to respect their relationship.


So will there be any changes when you get married?


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> You are not supposed to be at odds with your spouse. You should not ignore your spouse. They are supposed to be your number one concern. You are talking about a relationship you have with another man. Spouses have the right to feel the way they feel. If the marriage is the #1 priority then there is no issue.


You're right, I agree.


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## lovelygirl

NextTimeAround said:


> Well hopefully, you will find a partner who does not have a problem treating you with the some disdain.


Why are you wishing this on me? 

I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> So will there be any changes when you get married?


What do you mean?

Changes in the way that I'll treat my male friends?


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Spouses can see danger where we do not. Choose as best you can a spouse who is not a jerk. If you do no trust your spouse to not be cruel to you how can you trust them with opposite sex friends? Or better yet, why would someone stay married to a toxic spouse at all?
> 
> All this said, yes communication is key. The couple should talk it through. Yes you should ask for the reason. This is good because his issue may be something that can be dealt with. It may just be a further definition of a boundary. Maybe that is all that is needed. So certainly discuss this. I am just saying be prepared for this to come down to something that the other spouse feels crosses their boundaries. But at some point one has to wonder what type of bond does the spouse have with another person that they wish to risk their marriage over?


I agree. Communication is the key, not jut in marriage but in every type of relationship.


----------



## NextTimeAround

lovelygirl said:


> Why are you wishing this on me?
> 
> I wouldn't wish it on anyone.


You said:



lovelygirl said:


> He HAS TO explain why he finds it unacceptable or why he's not comfortable with it.
> *Sometimes partners have requests as "important" as whims or caprices which in my opinion should be ignored.*


You don't call that disdainful behaviour. I do. It seems like you're happy to wish it on your long term partners.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Changes in the way that I'll treat my male friends?


Sure.


----------



## lovelygirl

NextTimeAround said:


> You said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't call that disdainful behaviour. I do. It seems like you're happy to wish it on your long term partners.


NO! I wasn't wishing it on my partner! You got me wrong.
I just said sometimes partners have some strange requests on their partners but if things are discussed and communicated then they could come to a good conclusion.


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Sure.


I don't know but I think I'll try to be friendly as long as my husband won't mind it and at the same time hopefully my male-friend's partner won't mind it too.

EDIT: If they mind it, I'll keep distance.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> *I don't know* but I think I'll try to be friendly as long as my husband won't mind it and at the same time hopefully my male-friend's partner won't mind it too.
> 
> EDIT: If they mind it, I'll keep distance.


Good answer. 

It is hard to predict sometimes what we will and will not do in certain circumstances. We can have one thing clear in our minds and when the time comes we have to see things in that context. So I think your answer is a fair one. 

It may be that you will be less interested in these other guys. We also tend to outgrow certain relationships. We don't feed them so much of often. They may still exist long term but they find a better place in our lives. We see folks seeking out old friends all the time on FB.

Having children can make a big difference.

So are any of your friends of a romantic interest to you at all? Is it a shades of gray?

The thing is that we all go through rough spots in marriage from time to time. It is natural to start leaning on our friends. That is when the friendship is put to the test. That is when feelings can come out that were never expressed. I also understand that folks like attention from the opposite sex by people other than their spouse.


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> So are any of your friends of a romantic interest to you at all? Is it a shades of gray?.


The thing about my guy-friends is that I see them just AS FRIENDS and nothing more.
Someone either strikes me at first sight or he doesn't. 
When they don't strike me then they remain my friends and until now there has never been any guy friend for whom I've developed intimate feelings. Whenever I've imagined myself becoming intimate with any of them I've felt disgusted by it. So, none of my guy-friends is sexually attractive to me or potentially enough to be in a relationship with me.
Even though they are good looking guys I don't see myself becoming sexually intimate with any of them. [I should add looks is not everything but it's enough to create some sexual fantasies for that person.]
I don't have any gray shades with for any of my guy-friends. One of them though, wanted to be in a relationship with me but I didn't want to take this friendship further. 

I should add that my personality is often misunderstood by guys because they think I flirt with them all the time but that's not true and maybe they might have taken wrong signs. 

But as I previously said, if my partner had a problem with me going out with any of my guy-friends I'd do anything to make him feel comfortable and would stop going out with that person if needed.

***
Let me tell you that I've been only in one relationship and my now (ex)-boyfriend was overly-jealous even when I would talk to my guy-classmate or some other guy whom I had known for years and who was JUST A FRIEND. 
My ex wanted me to stop talking to _any guy on the phone_. 
That's why earlier I said that sometimes partners have some capricious requests because it's impossible to NOT talk to any guy-friend on the phone EVER. 
I work, I go to school, I have guy friends ... I mean...how is it possible to interrupt every contact with all my guy friends?
For his overboard jealousy I had to break up. I was very very loyal and faithful to him but he didn't appreciate it and would get jealous over nothing. So that's why I said, unless there's a strong reason for why you ask me not to talk to any guy then I'll keep talking to them because I won't isolate myself from the rest of the world just because you want me to.

That's my point.


----------



## Love Song

Cee Paul said:


> We both agree that it's inappropriate and can be a bad look for a marriage, and not something either one of us would be comfortable with. And we trust each other 1,000% but it's OTHER people no matter who they are that we don't trust, and so why put yourselves and others in an akward situation like that.



Weather it's awkward or not is up to your wife as she is the one with a connection to both of you. It depends on how you guys are introduced, etc. My guy friend who is in a relationship I asked him about her so when I finally met her we had something to talk about. And I am mindful of how I am introduced, in what setting, etc. 

It can be awkward moment but awkward can be avoided if done correctly.


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## Love Song

lovelygirl said:


> The thing about my guy-friends is that I see them just AS FRIENDS and nothing more.
> Someone either strikes me at first sight or he doesn't.
> When they don't strike me then they remain my friends and until now there has never been any guy friend for whom I've developed intimate feelings. Whenever I've imagined myself becoming intimate with any of them I've felt disgusted by it. So, none of my guy-friends is sexually attractive to me or potentially enough to be in a relationship with me.
> Even though they are good looking guys I don't see myself becoming sexually intimate with any of them. [I should add looks is not everything but it's enough to create some sexual fantasies for that person.]
> I don't have any gray shades with for any of my guy-friends. One of them though, wanted to be in a relationship with me but I didn't want to take this friendship further.


It sounds like you have clear boundaries. THis is what is necessary for a male and female relationship to actually be true. Not all people understand that the boundaries should not just be based around what you do with that person but what you feel for that person as well. 

Like you, I don't let my mind go there. I have strong boundaries. 





lovelygirl said:


> I should add that my personality is often misunderstood by guys because they think I flirt with them all the time but that's not true and maybe they might have taken wrong signs.


I have had this experience too. I have learned that I can not be as cheerful when I am with guys. Not all guys I have encountered take it that way but some do. Some take it as flirting because that's what they want to believe. Others take it as flirting because they don't know women well enough to know the difference. 

Just as there are rules you follow with your female friends, there are rules you follow with your male friends.


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## PrincessMarie

The answer is a big fat no.


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## Cee Paul

Love Song said:


> Weather it's awkward or not is up to your wife as she is the one with a connection to both of you. It depends on how you guys are introduced, etc. My guy friend who is in a relationship I asked him about her so when I finally met her we had something to talk about. And I am mindful of how I am introduced, in what setting, etc.
> 
> It can be awkward moment but awkward can be avoided if done correctly.


To each his/her own and do whatever feels comfortable to you is my motto on this but it's not our cup of tea, and it was a big issue with my ex because she did not care one bit that I was uncomfortable with her 2-3 guy friends she wanted to continue hanging out with regularly(which is one of several reasons why she is now my - ex).


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## Entropy3000

For those that feel it is positive in a marriage to have close opposite sex friends. i.e. friends that we schedule one on one time with. Hangout with regularly and share personal feelings with. 

Is it ok to add new opposite sex friends? Many folks claim to have many lifelong friends. Once you are married is it ok to continue to gather additional opposite sex friends. Is is ok for married people to meet new folks and exchange contact information? I am talking about folks you may meet at a convention, at a concert, dancing, gym or just in general meet and say, hey they seem to be a great person. They share some of my interests. I will continue this contact by giving them my phone number, email and or friend them on facebook. Or will you choose from a pool of people at work that you know for a long time before you bring them into your circle?

Is this ok? 

I guess they would not be a close friend right away or would they? Is it ok to meet someone at a gym and then start meeting up with them to work out? Or someone you meet dancing and then plan to meet them their next time. Is it ok for these new friends to be scheduled in for one on one time? Maybe meet someone and then say hey lets do lunch. Or lets meet for coffee. Just wondering where the boundaries are. Maybe you meet someone in class. Is it ok to schedule one on one time at thier place to study together?


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## Cee Paul

All I know is that since I have been married I see a whole lot less of my MALE friends I've known for many years, so don't even go there with any female friends(because I never really had many to begin with anyway).


----------



## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> For those that feel it is positive in a marriage to have close opposite sex friends. i.e. friends that we schedule one on one time with. Hangout with regularly and share personal feelings with.
> 
> Is it ok to add new opposite sex friends? Many folks claim to have many lifelong friends. Once you are married is it ok to continue to gather additional opposite sex friends. Is is ok for married people to meet new folks and exchange contact information? I am talking about folks you may meet at a convention, at a concert, dancing, gym or just in general meet and say, hey they seem to be a great person. They share some of my interests. I will continue this contact by giving them my phone number, email and or friend them on facebook. Or will you choose from a pool of people at work that you know for a long time before you bring them into your circle?
> 
> Is this ok?
> 
> I guess they would not be a close friend right away or would they? Is it ok to meet someone at a gym and then start meeting up with them to work out? Or someone you meet dancing and then plan to meet them their next time. Is it ok for these new friends to be scheduled in for one on one time? Maybe meet someone and then say hey lets do lunch. Or lets meet for coffee. Just wondering where the boundaries are. Maybe you meet someone in class. Is it ok to schedule one on one time at thier place to study together?


No. I don't think it would be fair enough for a married person to hang around regularly with his/her knew friend of the opposite sex. It's totally different when it comes to a long-time friend whom this married person has known BEFORE marriage but getting to know new people AFTER marriage changes things.
I wouldn't want my husband to go out regularly with his new female friends and I wouldn't hang around with my new male-friends after marriage. I don't think it's okay to start frequenting other new people after marriage.


----------



## the guy

LG, I wish everyone had these kinds of boundries, there would be a lot less poeple in the CWI forum.


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## Love Song

Entropy3000 said:


> For those that feel it is positive in a marriage to have close opposite sex friends. i.e. friends that we schedule one on one time with. Hangout with regularly and share personal feelings with.
> 
> Is it ok to add new opposite sex friends? Many folks claim to have many lifelong friends. Once you are married is it ok to continue to gather additional opposite sex friends. Is is ok for married people to meet new folks and exchange contact information? I am talking about folks you may meet at a convention, at a concert, dancing, gym or just in general meet and say, hey they seem to be a great person. They share some of my interests. I will continue this contact by giving them my phone number, email and or friend them on facebook. Or will you choose from a pool of people at work that you know for a long time before you bring them into your circle?
> 
> Is this ok?
> 
> I guess they would not be a close friend right away or would they? Is it ok to meet someone at a gym and then start meeting up with them to work out? Or someone you meet dancing and then plan to meet them their next time. Is it ok for these new friends to be scheduled in for one on one time? Maybe meet someone and then say hey lets do lunch. Or lets meet for coffee. Just wondering where the boundaries are. Maybe you meet someone in class. Is it ok to schedule one on one time at thier place to study together?




Yes it is fine to develop new relationships (after your married). 

As far as how far you go with that person, that is only something you can say on an individual basis. I cant speak for anyone else when I say what I do and feel comfortable with. 

I like to try to have my actions speak for my intentions. So when I first meet a guy I don't want to do anything with him alone (for the most part). Because I think doing so might encourage him to have bad intentions in regards to myself. 

It's hard to say actually. I have run over to his house before while no one was there to drop something off. But for extended periods of time? I just wouldn't see why I would want to do that so I guess I have to say no. Even if he wanted to talk he could come over my place (where my husband will be) or we could meet someplace public. 

Now if we have already had the 'where is this going talk' and boundaries have already been set verbally and I've never been made to feel like he likes me and I don't think if he gets me alone he'll try to rape me and and and... than yes I would hang out with him alone (meaning no one else invited), just not at his house.

I have a male friend I've been friends with for 15+ years. I am ok with being alone with him but I also know his sister and I know where he stands in relatioships. He knows how important my marriage is to me and how much I love my husband. There was several experiences I had with him over long periods of time where he gained my trust before we reached the level of one on one time. 

You have to remember, all of this time I am talking to my husband about almost everything. He gets a say but at the same time he understands that I am a social person and doesn't try to change that about me. I've told him I don't have a problem with him having female friends. But as we are opposites and he is more of a homebody he just does not want those types of friendships. But I know that if he did I would have say over who it is (and where) just as he does. 

He never tells me no but he does ask me to be careful around this person and he knows from experience that that's just what I am going to do.

Some people don't want to go through all of the loops I go through to maintain my friendships but my friendships (both female and male) are important to me. Sometimes I deal with really shady and dishonest people on both sides (female and male) but that's apart of the process. I do what I have to do to protect myself and my marriage. 

Anyway I hope this makes sense. I know this isn't common and I try to put it in a way that made sense.


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## NextTimeAround

Love Song said:


> <b>Now if we have already had the 'where is this going talk' </b>and boundaries have already been set verbally and I've never been made to feel like he likes me and I don't think if he gets me alone he'll try to rape me and and and... than yes I would hang out with him alone (meaning no one else invited), just not at his house.


If one or both members of the budding friendship is already married, I don't see why this question should even come up. To have the need to discuss this issue with a new person that you have just met, shows tenuous the concept of marriage is for you.


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## Love Song

NextTimeAround said:


> To have the need to discuss this issue with a new person that you have just met, shows tenuous the concept of marriage is for you.


I strongly disagree.




NextTimeAround said:


> If one or both members of the budding friendship is already married, I don't see why this question should even come up.


I dont bring it up the first time i meet someone but its better to be clear about this than to leave the other party guessing as we all know that some pretend to want friendships when they really want more. 

YOU can play that game if YOU want to but I wont.


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## Dr. Rockstar

I think it's okay to hang out one-on-one with opposite sex friends, as long as _your spouse is friends with this person, too. _ If you're hanging out alone with a friend from work, that's a no-no. And if your spouse ever asks you to back off from that person, you respect his or her wishes and back the hell off.


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## Entropy3000

Cee Paul said:


> All I know is that since I have been married I see a whole lot less of my MALE friends I've known for many years, so don't even go there with any female friends(because I never really had many to begin with anyway).


Yeah, I don't have a whole lot of time to spare period. I don't meet up with my male friends very often either. Family or work takes up a bunch of time. I think friends time is important but I have to be smart about how I spend it. I priotitize time with my wife for sure. But other folks may have time that I don't.


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## Entropy3000

lovelygirl said:


> No. I don't think it would be fair enough for a married person to hang around regularly with his/her knew friend of the opposite sex. It's totally different when it comes to a long-time friend whom this married person has known BEFORE marriage but getting to know new people AFTER marriage changes things.
> I wouldn't want my husband to go out regularly with his new female friends and I wouldn't hang around with my new male-friends after marriage. I don't think it's okay to start frequenting other new people after marriage.


Interesting. I get it. You can see where there may or may not be a boundary with this as opposed to established long term friends. 

You can also see where some folks would put a boundary on all the friends being joint friends or at least well know to the other.

Glad I asked this question about new friends.

New friends add a whole additional level to things.


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## Browneyedgurl020610

Entropy3000 said:


> Fantasies aside my wife telling me she is going to do some nude modeling for a guy friend of hers is a non starter. Just an example.
> 
> Or her saying she is going over Bob's house and try out his new hot tub with him and his buddies and BTW they will all be in the nude. Ummm. How about freaking no. But thanks for bringing this up and not just doing it.
> 
> But the actual act of suggesting this would be a big problem in itself. For some folks no big deal.
> 
> Hokey Smokes!


Wow. Just hanging out and getting naked for someone are 2 completely different things.


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## Browneyedgurl020610

My guy friends that I hang out with I have known for like 8-10 years. Bringing in new male friends may be a bit different. I would certainly let them know I am happily married, introduce him to my husband, and it would all depend if they got along or not.

I was friends with my first love for a long time after I got married. They knew each other and did not like each other. In my mind I still wanted to be friends with him because I had known him since I was 15. But when he started acting disrespectfully to my husband and then eventually me, I had to cut ties. 

It all depends on the situations.


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## Entropy3000

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> Wow. Just hanging out and getting naked for someone are 2 completely different things.


Yes indeed. There is a whole continuum of things. If you look at all the posts you will see many folks with opposite sex friends. However you will see the definition of hanging out broadly defined from getting a cup of coffee in a public place to having one on one private time at a guys apartment to naked people in a hot tub. So the details matter here it seems. 

We also see that some folks are cool with pre-marriage friendships while others continue to gather new friends that are not friends of the couple per se.

So hanging out is kinda vague is it not? It means different things to different people. Just like the word hooking up is very vague. Often these words are pruposely vague. So I might hookup with a female friend and that means we got a cup of coffee. But it could also mean we got a motel room. The urban dictionary even states this is a purposely vague word. 
So as with hanging out. What the heck do you do with opposite sex friends that would require you hang out? That could be going to an art museum or it could mean sitting around talking and drinking wine or whatever.

Also there is hanging out with a group of male / female friends and then there is hanging out with an opposite sex friend in public or privately.

All of these nuances require there own consideration and represent a large variety of boundaries. Boundaries in these can get very complex. 

Some of us choose to keep it simple and not hangout one on one at all with opposite sex friends. Others do not mind dealing with the complexities as for them the rewards outweight the risks and the efforts.

So it is just not quite as simple to say that some percentage of folks have opposite sex friendships or not. I have opposite sex friends. I do not hangout with them one on one. 

I do think this discussion is a good one because to me anyway this is real live marital stuff. Two folks coming to agreement on what level of opposite sex friends they should have and where the boundaries are or are not.

So how do you define hanging out? What does that mean to you? Where are the boundaries?


----------



## Entropy3000

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> My guy friends that I hang out with I have known for like 8-10 years. Bringing in new male friends may be a bit different. I would certainly let them know I am happily married, introduce him to my husband, and it would all depend if they got along or not.
> 
> *I was friends with my first love for a long time after I got married. *They knew each other and did not like each other. In my mind I still wanted to be friends with him because I had known him since I was 15. But when he started acting disrespectfully to my husband and then eventually me, I had to cut ties.
> 
> It all depends on the situations.


WOW. Yeah, you bring up a great point. Previous friends bring a varied history. Ex lovers are forever a challenge to a marriage. Once you have been intimate with someone despite intentions there is always the risk of this rekindling and turning into an affair in zero time. Many folks require NC with previous lovers. Of course if a spouse does not reveal this information it is hard for the other to know except in their gut by observation.

So you wanted to stay friends. Did this mean that you would hangout with them? I mean have one on one time or was this more at arms length?

My thinking is that having one on one time with an ex lover, especially your first would be over the top. I can't imagine what your hubby was thinking about this. He may have not complained but surely this bothered him.


----------



## Numb in Ohio

Entropy3000 said:


> WOW. Yeah, you bring up a great point. Previous friends bring a varied history. Ex lovers are forever a challenge to a marriage. Once you have been intimate with someone despite intentions there is always the risk of this rekindling and turning into an affair in zero time. Many folks require NC with previous lovers. Of course if a spouse does not reveal this information it is hard for the other to know except in their gut by observation.
> 
> So you wanted to stay friends. Did this mean that you would hangout with them? I mean have one on one time or was this more at arms length?


Glad this was brought up. My H had let me know about his ex high school girl friend. I had only met her once at his 25th hs reunion.... which she had to go somewhere to check on a building to move the party to, and I let my H go with her... when we left that night, he said I was a fool... I never understood why,,until months ago when i found out he has been talking to her the whole 10 years we've been together/married.... and then revealed that they had slept together back in 99 ( 1 year before we got together).... Boy was I the fool.... but says they are "just friends". Then why would he have to hide the fact of talking to her.... ?? Guess he hoped I'd be just as naive as I was the fool... Not!!


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## Browneyedgurl020610

Entropy3000 said:


> WOW. Yeah, you bring up a great point. Previous friends bring a varied history. Ex lovers are forever a challenge to a marriage. Once you have been intimate with someone despite intentions there is always the risk of this rekindling and turning into an affair in zero time. Many folks require NC with previous lovers. Of course if a spouse does not reveal this information it is hard for the other to know except in their gut by observation.
> 
> *So you wanted to stay friends. Did this mean that you would hangout with them? I mean have one on one time or was this more at arms length?*
> 
> My thinking is that having one on one time with an ex lover, especially your first would be over the top. I can't imagine what your hubby was thinking about this. He may have not complained but surely this bothered him.


I did once hang out with my ex one on one and this was before we got engaged. It was weird and awkward...my husband (bf) at the time really did not like it and I understand why. Didn't do it again. If I ever did see him again it was with mutual friends. I still talked to him from time to time via AIM or Facebook.

I always wanted to stay friends with him because he was very important to me at one time and I hoped we could stay friends, but it didn't work and it had really nothing to do with my husband. He just became an ass and changed so much I didn't want to be around all that negative. I have other exes I am friends with but I really don't see them often and my hubby knows about all of them and doesn't care because he knows I love him and want to be with him.


----------



## Entropy3000

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> I did once hang out with my ex one on one and this was before we got engaged. It was weird and awkward...my husband (bf) at the time really did not like it and I understand why. Didn't do it again. If I ever did see him again it was with mutual friends. I still talked to him from time to time via AIM or Facebook.
> 
> I always wanted to stay friends with him because he was very important to me at one time and I hoped we could stay friends, but it didn't work and it had really nothing to do with my husband. He just became an ass and changed so much I didn't want to be around all that negative. I have other exes I am friends with but I really don't see them often and my hubby knows about all of them and doesn't care because he knows I love him and want to be with him.


There are all kinds of people so generalization does not work across the board. BUT, most guys who have been intimate with a woman do not want to remain just friends. If they go along with it there is usually the expectation of becoming initmate again. Women should know this. No doubt some guy with post and say he has no problem being friend zoned in this way. Whatever.


----------



## Browneyedgurl020610

Entropy3000 said:


> most guys who have been intimate with a woman do not want to remain just friends. If they go along with it there is usually the expectation of becoming intimate again. r.


You are probably right, but he was dating around and such after we broke up and HE broke up with ME so yeah.


----------



## Entropy3000

So my own cue from the other thread about single friends, I think I would like to point out from my personal level what bothers me about opposite sex friends in a marriage. Close friends. I have female friends. I am talking about close friends who you would schedule time with in public and especially in private.

We make much of sexual tension and all of that. That exists at some level. BUT, what is the much bigger kryptonite for me is not the pure base sexual energy. It is the emotional connection. The bonding. The feelings of affection. I may be unique here. But I will tell you that it is within my nature to be compassionate. I like women on more than one level. I am attracted to femininity. If you are my close friend and we meet needs for each other and we become emotionally intimate ... I am going to have some level of love for you. You should love your friends. I have love for my male friends. But even in a plutonic sense the love I will have for a woman is not exactly like that of my male friends. Part of their persona is being feminine. I am not just talking about sexual tension. I can develop feelings for a woman because she is feminine. I think this is natural. I do think this gets clouded with the sexual tension in a confusing way. At least for me.

So a man may not have predatory interest in a woman. There is still sexual tension. But the issue is really more about the emotional connection. That is what makes EAs folks. I know many want to dwell on pure sexual attraction but they completely miss the boat on that one. This is how spouses fall in love with people who seemingly are not as attractive as their spouses. These are not people looking to cheat. They have a friends love for someone that slowly turns into an inappropriate intimacy. That intimacy feels good and right even when it is not. This is why some folks will put their marriage in jeopardy over opposite sex friends. In their minds this is just a close friendship. It is often a level of intimacy and the meeting of needs and strong love they have for the other person. Yes love. This innocent love can morph into a fantasy which is unfaithful. But to be sure these in love feelings are not entirely different from when the couple were dating each other and they fell in love.

So, this is why I call this type of thing dating. If you really insist on having opposite sex close and intimate friendships you are looking for that love with these folks. I am not saying this is wrong. It is a great feeling. The question is to how risky this is for you. Can you AND the other person handle this?

If a woman tells a man she is having trouble with her husband, it is less about him being predatory and more about his compassion for her and him developing protective feelings for her. She sees his compassion and feels closer to him. It is a dance that pulls people together ... inappropriately I think but natural.

So not everyone is like me. I know I risk developing feelings for another woman if I spend time with her and we gain emotional intimacy. My character flaw I guess. The thing is that our spouse may not be like me, but if just one of their friends is, you can have a problem. Do the math.

This has nothing to do with judging anyone else. I am suggesting that people look at this at an emotional level and not just at the obvious. A high character great guy can indeed fall in love with a married woman IF he has poor boundaries. A predator is not likely to fall in love. BUT he will manipulate the situation to bed her. The more common scenario is the legitimate friend and feelings develop. YMMV.


----------



## MmHo

Not in my book...NO WAY!!
I have always been very easy going about this kind of stuff. But now my STBXH has over stepped the mark for the second time... Its over.
He was "friends" with 2 women when I met him, but it transpired that they had been more than friends. To cut a very long and laborious story short he did the same again with one of these women and now we are getting divorced. 
I have to hand it to him, he almost had me believing it was always their fault all the way along. Lucky for me I got some "new glasses".
And saw him for what he really was a liar and a cheater... took a while though!!
He's a bit annoyed with me at the moment because he can no longer manipulate me.... Oh dear never mind!!LOL


----------



## RClawson

Entropy3000 said:


> So my own cue from the other thread about single friends, I think I would like to point out from my personal level what bothers me about opposite sex friends in a marriage. Close friends. I have female friends. I am talking about close friends who you would schedule time with in public and especially in private.
> 
> We make much of sexual tension and all of that. That exists at some level. BUT, what is the much bigger kryptonite for me is not the pure base sexual energy. It is the emotional connection. The bonding. The feelings of affection. I may be unique here. But I will tell you that it is within my nature to be compassionate. I like women on more than one level. I am attracted to femininity. If you are my close friend and we meet needs for each other and we become emotionally intimate ... I am going to have some level of love for you. You should love your friends. I have love for my male friends. But even in a plutonic sense the love I will have for a woman is not exactly like that of my male friends. Part of their persona is being feminine. I am not just talking about sexual tension. I can develop feelings for a woman because she is feminine. I think this is natural. I do think this gets clouded with the sexual tension in a confusing way. At least for me.
> 
> So a man may not have predatory interest in a woman. There is sexual tension. But the issue is really more about the emotional connection. That is what makes EAs folks. I know many want to dwell on pure sexual attraction but they completely miss the boat on that one. This is how spouses fall in love with people who seemingly are not as attractive as their spouse. These are not people looking to cheat. They have a friends love for someone that slowly turns into an inappropriate intimacy. That intimacy feeling good and right. This is why some folks will put their marriage in jeopardy over opposite sex friends. In their minds this is just a close friendship. It si often a level of intimacy and the meeting of needs and strong love they have for the other person. Yes love. This innocent love can morph into a fantasy which is unfaithful. But to be sure these in love feelings are not entirely different from when the couple were dating each other and they fell in love.
> 
> So, this is why I call this type of thing dating. If you really insist on having opposite sex close and intimate friendships you are looking for that love with these folks. I am not saying this is wrong. It is a great feeling. The question is to how risky is this.
> 
> If a woman tells a man she is having trouble with her husband, it is less about him being predatory and more about his compassion for her and him developing protective feelings for her. She sees his compassion and feels closer to him. It is a dance that pulls people together ... inappropriately I think. It is natural.
> 
> So not everyone is like me. I know I risk developing feelings for another woman if I spend time with her and we gain emotional intimacy. My character flaw I guess. The thing is that our spouse may not be like me, but if just one of their friends is, you can have a problem. Do the math.


Entropy this is solid insight and I think it clarifies the issue in a very sensible manner. 

I think so many people do not understand the power of emotional intimacy and many, particularly men, cannot relate to it in the slightest. The thing I hate about the threads on this topic is the knuckle drager comments from men that might as well be like this "if it is wearing a skirt I'm gonna hit that stuff if I can ever get a chance". 

I grew up with no sisters. My Mom is a fantastic women but unconventional to say the least. I think it is safe to say that it took me a long time to get with the program as far as the fairer sex is concerned (Late Bloomer here). I used to think that I missed out as a teen because of it but now I look on a slow and steady course to dating and marriage as a blessing. Let me explain further to illustrate.

My first real girlfriend was an incredible individual I met at my first year of college. She was a couple years older, extremely attractive, well spoken and very clever. I was attracted in ways that I had never been and somehow I got the nerve to ask her out and to this day I still cannot believe she said yes. She taught me so much about relationships and what I really wanted in a partner for life. Our relationship was physically limited to some affectionate kissing and cuddling. The emotional intimacy was off the charts. We would go our separate ways after that year but she completed the foundation of how I perceive women, what kind of women I wanted to associate with and what kind of woman I would want to marry.

I guess what I am trying to get at is that I respect women to much to let what you are talking about happen. I guess if one of my close female friends began to complain about her spouse (this has never happened) then I would listen to that first conversation and suggest my therapist who I so highly regard. If one of them was being abused by their husband I would do everything I could to make sure she was safe. This would not include me confronting any husband because I think they could kick my a$$ with one hand tied behind their backs.

Entropy I love women. My value of femininity is off the charts. I respect women who value femininity so much but I also believe femininity is diminishing. It is a sad thing. When I hear men talk in forums like these about how if they ever had a chance with the women that consider them friends they would have their pants off in a second it saddens me deeply. Let's face it though over the past 40 years women and society (generalizing here) have done so much to diminish the beautiful thing that femininity is. If you do not believe me drive to you local high school today and park in the parking lot. Then roll down your window and listen to the girls talk. The bulk of their conversations would make sailors blush.

I am sorry I am ranting about this but we talk about boundaries so much that I am always so surprised that people have such a difficult time defining them outside of their oown marriages. I am not stupid. I am completely aware of when I am vulnerable to someone and when that flag goes up that is when the brakes go on. After 25 years of marriage and a lifetime of working in female dominated industries I can say no affairs, no EA's and dozens of incredible relationships with women and their families that I hope to cherish for the rest of my life.


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## CandieGirl

RClawson said:


> Entropy this is solid insight and I think it clarifies the issue in a very sensible manner.
> 
> I think so many people do not understand the power of emotional intimacy and many, particularly men, cannot relate to it in the slightest. The thing I hate about the threads on this topic is the knuckle drager comments from men that might as well be like this "if it is wearing a skirt I'm gonna hit that stuff if I can ever get a chance".
> 
> I grew up with no sisters. My Mom is a fantastic women but unconventional to say the least. I think it is safe to say that it took me a long time to get with the program as far as the fairer sex is concerned (Late Bloomer here). I used to think that I missed out as a teen because of it but now I look on a slow and steady course to dating and marriage as a blessing. Let me explain further to illustrate.
> 
> My first real girlfriend was an incredible individual I met at my first year of college. She was a couple years older, extremely attractive, well spoken and very clever. I was attracted in ways that I had never been and somehow I got the nerve to ask her out and to this day I still cannot believe she said yes. She taught me so much about relationships and what I really wanted in a partner for life. Our relationship was physically limited to some affectionate kissing and cuddling. The emotional intimacy was off the charts. We would go our separate ways after that year but she completed the foundation of how I perceive women, what kind of women I wanted to associate with and what kind of woman I would want to marry.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to get at is that I respect women to much to let what you are talking about happen. I guess if one of my close female friends began to complain about her spouse (this has never happened) then I would listen to that first conversation and suggest my therapist who I so highly regard. If one of them was being abused by their husband I would do everything I could to make sure she was safe. This would not include me confronting any husband because I think they could kick my a$$ with one hand tied behind their backs.
> 
> Entropy I love women. My value of femininity is off the charts. I respect women who value femininity so much but I also believe femininity is diminishing. It is a sad thing. When I hear men talk in forums like these about how if they ever had a chance with the women that consider them friends they would have their pants off in a second it saddens me deeply. Let's face it though over the past 40 years women and society (generalizing here) have done so much to diminish the beautiful thing that femininity is. If you do not believe *me drive to you local high school today and park in the parking lot. Then roll down your window and listen to the girls talk.* The bulk of their conversations would make sailors blush.
> 
> I am sorry I am ranting about this but we talk about boundaries so much that I am always so surprised that people have such a difficult time defining them outside of their oown marriages. I am not stupid. I am completely aware of when I am vulnerable to someone and when that flag goes up that is when the brakes go on. After 25 years of marriage and a lifetime of working in female dominated industries I can say no affairs, no EA's and dozens of incredible relationships with women and their families that I hope to cherish for the rest of my life.


Don't do that...someone will call the cops on ya! But nice to hear that you have a handle on your op/sex friendships. Because I truly believe that it's a lot tougher than most people realize to keep things on a strict friendship basis; almost always, lines get blurred, whether it's admitted or not. All of those who think "Oh, not my friend, it's not like that at all!", that's only because you have no way of seeing into your friend's mind...often it's exactly like that.


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## Jeff/BC

Entropy3000 said:


> There are all kinds of people so generalization does not work across the board. BUT, most guys who have been intimate with a woman do not want to remain just friends.


As you say... no generalization is accurate in the specific. For me personally, I can't see myself wanting someone as a friend that I already rejected as a lover. Not... at least... without a substantial period of time having elapsed (5+ years). I can't see myself wanting to get re-intimate with that person under any circumstances.


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## Jellybeans

Entropy3000 said:


> BUT, most guys who have been intimate with a woman do not want to remain just friends. If they go along with it there is usually the expectation of becoming initmate again.


Noted.

And that is exactly why I should have stayed FAR away from the guy I had an A with. Looking back, we were never "just friends." It was an emotional affair for a lot longer than I ever thought now that I look back. Hindsight is always 20/20.


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## Entropy3000

> I guess what I am trying to get at is that I respect women to much to let what you are talking about happen. I guess if one of my close female friends began to complain about her spouse (this has never happened) then I would listen to that first conversation and suggest my therapist who I so highly regard. If one of them was being abused by their husband I would do everything I could to make sure she was safe. This would not include me confronting any husband because I think they could kick my a$$ with one hand tied behind their backs.


I could never have strong feelings for a women who I did not repsect. So I would just say, now that I have learned from my choices and am wiser for the experience, I repsect my wife too much to put myself at risk.

Lets just chalk this up to the fact that I am a very passionate individual about a lot of things. My example about a wife being mistreated was just an example about a man having protective instincts. 
About having feelings for the person. 

Also you are in a female dominated industry. I was in the reverse for a long time. But to be sure workplace EAs are abundant. They are about people spending time together and meeting each others needs. That is my point.

I think ultimately you and I are on the different side of the bellcurve here. Both good people. But with different levels in emotional areas. 

Again, if an opposite sex friendship comes in between a husband and wife, it is likely IMHO less about one being jealous, insecure and controlling and more about emotional boundaries. Not that being controlling does not occur. Just saying we are just friends and I am not going to give them up should raise an eye brow. Blaming the spouse for their concern is a bit naive in most cases. It comes down to priorities. If this works for you then great. But I am not hearing that your wife objects so you are ok. You do not generate strong feelings for your female friends even when you spend private time with them. That is must for sure if you choose to do this. I know the person I am and I have strong feelings about a lot of things.


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## RClawson

Entropy3000 said:


> I could never have strong feelings for a women who I did not repsect. So I would just say, now that I have learned from my choices and am wiser for the experience, I repsect my wife too much to put myself at risk.
> 
> Lets just chalk this up to the fact that I am a very passionate individual about a lot of things. My example about a wife being mistreated was just an example about a man having protective instincts.
> About having feelings for the person.
> 
> Also you are in a female dominated industry. I was in the reverse for a long time. But to be sure workplace EAs are abundant. They are about people spending time together and meeting each others needs. That is my point.
> 
> I think ultimately you and I are on the different side of the bellcurve here. Both good people. But with different levels in emotional areas.
> 
> Again, if an opposite sex friendship comes in between a husband and wife, it is likely IMHO less about one being jealous, insecure and controlling and more about emotional boundaries. Not that being controlling does not occur. Just saying we are just friends and I am not going to give them up should raise an eye brow. Blaming the spouse for their concern is a bit naive in most cases. It comes down to priorities. If this works for you then great. But I am not hearing that your wife objects so you are ok. You do not generate strong feelings for your female friends even when you spend private time with them. That is must for sure if you choose to do this. I know the person I am and I have strong feelings about a lot of things.


Well said and if my wife ever told me she was not comfortable with any of my female friends on any level that would be the end of the relationship.


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## Entropy3000

RClawson said:


> Well said and if my wife ever told me she was not comfortable with any of my female friends on any level that would be the end of the relationship.


We are awesome people!!


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## RClawson

Entropy3000 said:


> We are awesome people!!


Concur


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

NextTimeAround said:


> Do your male friends defer to your husband? Do they make it clear that they are inviting you out as a couple. Do your male friends only call/ text/ e-mail you on your own account or a shared account?


My partner had a brain hemorrhage and he is in rehabilitation. I am very happy to have male friends because the provide the sort of social environment for me and personal support and small boosts to self-esteem and feelings of security (to a point) that my partner would be providing, were he able.

We talked about opposite sex friendships, because of our interests and activities we do have them. Mostly I go out with male friends that we both know, or I go to social events or activities arriving and leaving by myself, where these male friends will be, often we will share a meal after and conversation, and part with hugs. I do have a couple male friends that are my own alone, he has not met them because he is in the facility, but I talk about them with him, and fill him in, and I talk about him with my friends.

How do I manage boundaries? One guy I met told me flat out he wanted a relationship with me, that he was attracted to me. I informed him that what he was attracted to was most likely the reflected love and light from my relationship with my guy, and that messing with that would destroy what it was he wanted in the first place. That if the boundaries were crossed, I would be a different person, unattractive, losing self-confidence, light diminished or extinguished, he can hang around in that light, but he better be in moth mode and understand that getting too close is going to extinguish the flame he sees. I told him it is not a choice, but that is the way it is. As a Quaker I have an inclination to learn from any relationship, I don't censor because I trust that given any situation I will be able to discern what is going on, and communicate to achieve balance and understanding. He asked me flat out what he could expect from a social date, and I told him, lunch and conversation. It's up to him to accept or decline, he is the one who has the thing for me. If my heart didn't belong to my guy, maybe I would give him more than that, maybe not, because I'm not in that situation, I don't know how I would feel. I'm in the situation I'm in, and what I feel is that I don't want to be with anyone physically or intimately emotionally but my guy, but I am okay with sharing lunch and conversation, even with someone who has propositioned me. What, am I supposed to dine with someone who thinks I am ugly, unattractive, and dull?

Let's put it this way, I've been eating lunch on my own at the hospital, and the director of cardiology who is married came to share my table with me. We ate lunch together and chatted, I was a graduate of a medical program he knew about, we talked about my ideas, my guy who was in the hospital, my kids, etc. Avoided his work because he only gave me his first name and put his name tag inside his pocket...no biggie. I enjoyed the conversation, I know who he is, whatever. If I'm attractive and look like a good conversationalist and someone wants to share a table with me over others because the patio dining is crowded on a hot spring day, sure, choose me! The funny thing is earlier that week I'd dined with a stranger at a restaurant because we were hanging around waiting for the same person, who never showed. Exchanged phone numbers, I know where he lives, he is 80 years old...what's the issue? I also have a sort of relationship with my guy's old roommate, who is still in the hospital, old guy with no apparent family, my kids and I bought him slippers and visited him even after my guy went to a rehab facility, when I was up there for my daughter's appt.

Intent is everything. I'm a spiritual person, a Quaker. When I talk to someone, it's not with the intent of getting it on, it's with the intent of communicating. Guys have the same issues deep inside as women, everyone wants to learn from life, life involves other people, other people might hold clues to what you need to know to move forward in your life. It's a path, a crossing, a conversation or time spent together. It doesn't imply commitment, it doesn't imply that the natural course of a relationship is to end up in bed. I think a lot of people make the assumption that any relationship between a man and a woman is heading towards sex/bed...but change that perception to one of spiritual understanding, and you get a whole different framework for your relationship, and your conversation.


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## CandieGirl

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> My guy friends that I hang out with I have known for like 8-10 years. Bringing in new male friends may be a bit different. I would certainly let them know I am happily married, introduce him to my husband, and it would all depend if they got along or not.
> 
> I was friends with my first love for a long time after I got married. They knew each other and did not like each other. In my mind I still wanted to be friends with him because I had known him since I was 15. But when he started acting disrespectfully to my husband and then eventually me, I had to cut ties.
> 
> It all depends on the situations.


The above is a good example of why in most cases, it's not a good idea. Even though you wanted friendship, it appears quite obvious that the two guys did not. Not with each other. Not with you.


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## Love Song

CandieGirl said:


> The above is a good example of why in most cases, it's not a good idea. Even though you wanted friendship, it appears quite obvious that the two guys did not. Not with each other. Not with you.


Yep it's all about boundaries. Thinking you can maintain a friendship with an ex isn't strong boundaries IMHO.


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## CandieGirl

Love Song said:


> Yep it's all about boundaries. Thinking you can maintain a friendship with an ex isn't strong boundaries IMHO.


The point is, you may have the strong boundaries, but the ex may not. Case in point: my husband had an ex who texted him around Xmas; this had been a bone of contention for us for a long time, and we agreed that in our marriage, exes were not welcome. For a woman who claimed to only want friendship, she sure went apesh!t on him when he told her that we'd agreed (in OUR marriage) not to communicate with people from our pasts...


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

As for talking about issues with relationship with members of opposite sex. Generally speaking if I have a problem with one friend I work it out with that friend. So if I have a problem with my partner I work it out with my partner. This boundary of conversation is no different than any other conversation. I don't use my friends for therapy for relationship issues, except if I am dealing with a conflict, then I talk about the conflict but it's not about the other person, it's about how I feel, and it would be a third party, someone who is not a friend, maybe like a work situation or whatever, not an intimate relationship whether a love relationship or a friendship, that has to be worked out between the two people, regardless.


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## Love Song

When you have strong friendship boundaries it means that you don't befriend an ex. Why? Because that ex was someone you were romantic with or had romantic feelings for. So by your own experiences you can not be friends with this person. Those romantic memories will always be there. So those who try to tell themselves that they are just being friends with an ex are just fooling themselves. It is not possible. Once you cross that friendship line you can not go back.

If someone decides to play the friendship role with an ex, it is surely their choice but it isn't a true friendship. This is why I said that people who try to become friends with an ex do not have strong boundaries.


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## CandieGirl

Marriage / relationships are tough enough. Why throw in exes? To me at least that much is a no brainer. Other opposite sex friendships? A little tougher to define sometimes. Personally? I just stay away.


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## Browneyedgurl020610

I have other exes I am friends with. I was just more in love with this one and intimate with so yeah it's a little more complicated. Point is, my husband knew, didn't like him, but trusted me enough to know nothing would happen and it never did. You CAN be friends with exes depending on the time frame you broke up, if you have someone else or not and if it was a strong friendship from the beginning. What about if you guys have kids together? He is still your ex. So wouldn't it be wise to try and be friendly with one another?


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## Entropy3000

Browneyedgurl020610 said:


> I have other exes I am friends with. I was just more in love with this one and intimate with so yeah it's a little more complicated. Point is, my husband knew, didn't like him, but trusted me enough to know nothing would happen and it never did. You CAN be friends with exes depending on the time frame you broke up, if you have someone else or not and if it was a strong friendship from the beginning. What about if you guys have kids together? He is still your ex. So wouldn't it be wise to try and be friendly with one another?


If you have children you are forced to have some contact but you are not close friends that you spend time with even then unless you wish to risk something happening. Exes are forever a threat to a marriage. These are people you have been intimate with. This never goes away no matter how bad the breakup. So if there are no children there really is no excuse.


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## lovelygirl

Entropy3000 said:


> If you have children you are forced to have some contact but you are not close friends that you spend time with even then unless you wish to risk something happening. Exes are forever a threat to a marriage. These are people you have been intimate with. This never goes away not matter how bad the breakup. So if there are no children there really is no excuse.


Totally! Exes are a threat!

I used to date a guy who was my age but had 2 kids and was divorced. 
Whether we wanted or not, he HAD to keep in touch with his ex wife because of the kids and that would bother me a lot.
I don't want any ex around my partner so that's why I wasn't comfortable with it and I had to get away from him before things started getting more serious.


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## Floret

No. Me and my husband do not approve opposite sex friendship crap. No drama, no potential to cheat; its just two of us and we are happy that way.


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## NextTimeAround

Entropy3000 said:


> If you have children you are forced to have some contact but you are not close friends that you spend time with even then unless you wish to risk something happening. Exes are forever a threat to a marriage. These are people you have been intimate with. This never goes away not matter how bad the breakup. So if there are no children there really is no excuse.


A friend of mine is married to a divorce. His divorce was well behind him when they met and his daughter was 14. My friend found out that for many years when he did visitation, he agreed to go with the mother in tow as if they were still together. Even though over the years she had had a bf here and there.

So when my friend came on the scene, the mother got the daughter to speak for her. And pretty much told him, that if he couldn't do visitation with the mother together, then he wouldn't get visitation at all. That was about 8 years ago. The daughter has still decided to stay away from him.


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## CandieGirl

Generally, Browneyed, the exception to the rule is if you have kids with an ex. Thereby one should maintain civility and nothing more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## saf0317

Cee Paul said:


> .....that they still hangout with and do stuff with while married or in a serious relationship? Well with some people that have totally open minds they can still do that, but the minute that let's say Bob(fake name)starts getting in the way of my time with my wife and interrupting our plans - there's gonna be a huuuuge problem with that!


I don't think so. Before meeting my husband, I had many male friends. Men are easier to get along with for some women. And vice versa. But, my husband explained to me that men are almost incapable of not imagining sexual encounters of some sort with women...even the ones they say they are just friends with. Now, I don't know if this is true or not. But, I do know IF one spouse feels threatened by or uncomfortable with ANY relationship the other spouse is having with someone of the opposite sex...that relationship is inappropriate and needs to end. If your wife is defending her relationship with 'Bob' at the expense of YOUR feelings and security in the marriage...then there is likely more going on. As husband and wife...your marriage is the relationship she should be making that her priority and defend it against all else. 'Bob' be damned!


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## Onmyway

My wife and I used to be ok with opposite sex friends, there were never any problems for 13 years.

Now? Not really going to be ok with the idea for the forseeable future.


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## hurtbeyondmeasure

i have male friends that yes i have dated. we have remained friends and when i met my husband we talked about this and he told me he did not mind as long as i did not cheat on him. well i have never cheated on him. some of them call to see how me and my husband are doing but that is only like every 3-4 months. but now after 2 yrs, it has become a HUGE problem for him. he told me that if my attitude does not change then he is leaving me. he has been so mean to me to the point i am scared to say anything to him. im afraid he is gonna fly off the handle. he has me thinking our marriage problems are my fault and that i do not know how to love anyone. so i deleted all my men friends numbers and no i do not have any in my memory. he says i have bad mood swings and he is tried of dealing with them. so i told him i would seek counceling to find out what is wrong with me. but the more i think about it, he needs to see one also because he has a BAD anger problem. i am at a loss right now.


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## Entropy3000

hurtbeyondmeasure said:


> i have male friends that yes i have dated. we have remained friends and when i met my husband we talked about this and he told me he did not mind as long as i did not cheat on him. well i have never cheated on him. some of them call to see how me and my husband are doing but that is only like every 3-4 months. but now after 2 yrs, it has become a HUGE problem for him. he told me that if my attitude does not change then he is leaving me. he has been so mean to me to the point i am scared to say anything to him. im afraid he is gonna fly off the handle. he has me thinking our marriage problems are my fault and that i do not know how to love anyone. so i deleted all my men friends numbers and no i do not have any in my memory. he says i have bad mood swings and he is tried of dealing with them. so i told him i would seek counceling to find out what is wrong with me. but the more i think about it, he needs to see one also because he has a BAD anger problem. i am at a loss right now.


Early in a relationship people often have looser boundaries as they are caught up in their head over heals in love feelings for their spouse. They may not understand boundaries well either. They just know they want to prevent and end result. Sometimes this is them compromising their real boundaries. A big mistake IMO. But I think this may be a matter of your husband realizing what his boundaries really are ... now. He may have found out in practice he is not ok with opposite sex friends. Boundaries do have to be reviewed over time. His original boundary of anything goes but do not cheat was not a very realistic boundary or at least relatively loose that gave no leeway for error. I am betting he did not give this much thought to begin with. My views on these things has changed over time for sure.

Who knows what changed his mind? There could be more going on here but we cannot tell from what you have posted. But he is probably not good with these exes contacting you at all. He may feel you should have put up your own boundary there. He was probably counting on you to handle it. What we don't see in the above is anything about the interaction between you and your hubby. I sense, you may have justified the contact from the exes and that upset him. But we can only guess. 

But the take away for me is that opposite sex friends can become an issue for a spouse when there are stresses on the marriage. ALL marriages have stress from time to time. Your issues seem above and beyond opposite sex friends. But this may put extra pressure on things.


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## hurtbeyondmeasure

he has let it build up to where he exploded 2 weeks ago. he has been under alot of stress. he is disabled and he told me that i was treating him like a room mate instead of a husband. i told him in my heart i felt the love for him. he says actions speak louder than words, which is true. since him and i have been together i have never met any of my male friends. they knew i was married and happy. but i have deleted all numbers from my phone to prove to him that i am serious about our relationship, but he has already expressed he does not care anymore. but i do have 1 thing on my side right now, he still loves me.,


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## NextTimeAround

hurtbeyondmeasure said:


> he has let it build up to where he exploded 2 weeks ago. he has been under alot of stress. he is disabled and he told me that i was treating him like a room mate instead of a husband. i told him in my heart i felt the love for him. he says actions speak louder than words, which is true.* since him and i have been together i have never met any of my male friends.* they knew i was married and happy. but i have deleted all numbers from my phone to prove to him that i am serious about our relationship, but he has already expressed he does not care anymore. but i do have 1 thing on my side right now, he still loves me.,


Why is that? I think if my husband had female friends that he spoke to regularly 3 or 4 times a year but we never see them, I would wonder what's the point. Do they live in the same city as you do? Why have you chosen not to introduce your husband to your male friends? And has your husband met your female friends? Did you have a wedding? If so what made you decide to not invite these guys to your wedding which would have appropriate.

From your post above, it does seem as if something else is going on.


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## hurtbeyondmeasure

yes we had a wedding and yes i invited them and no they did not come. yes he has met my female friends. he did meet one ex bf. we were invited to his wedding by his g/f. i would have loved to introduce him but like i said we never hung out. he has met all the men i work with. we have actually been out with them. but like i said, this issue will not come up anymore. i have destroyed my marriage over exes and i not gonna let it go on.


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## NextTimeAround

hurtbeyondmeasure said:


> yes we had a wedding and yes i invited them and no they did not come. yes he has met my female friends. he did meet one ex bf. we were invited to his wedding by his g/f. i would have loved to introduce him but like i said we never hung out. he has met all the men i work with. we have actually been out with them. but like i said, this issue will not come up anymore.* i have destroyed my marriage over exes and i not gonna let it go on*.


do you mean a past marriage or this one?


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## hurtbeyondmeasure

my current husband


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## NextTimeAround

hurtbeyondmeasure said:


> my current husband


You're still married, so I would think that there is hope. What kind of social life does your husband seem to like? And does he contribute to socialising for the two of you? 

I think it helps when both spouses are reasonably happy with the social life they are able to create on their own and then what they share with their spouse. OTOH, if he feels that you get more attention than he does or what's warranted in his opinion, then there is a problem.

Based on what you have written, I would have tried to have a party so that my husband could meet my friends and so that he can invite friends and other people that he wants to get to know better. Is that something that you could do over the next year.


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## Entropy3000

Ok, so totally contrived situation. Food for thought.

For the ladies that have some number of close male friends. Lets say three. These are men you would feel comfortable staying at your place while your hubby was off on a business trip. You have been friends with them for 15, 10 and 5 years respectively.
To keep this simple they are not married or in a LTR now.

Now you would never actually do this as these are platonic friends as far as you are concerned.

But, how would they react if after the end of a great evening and having a little wine that when you went into change you came back out nude or in a sexy nightgown and grabbed their hand to walk them to bed with you? 

1) They would refuse and leave as they value your friendship too much. 

2) They would refuse as they would not sleep with you because you were married.

3) They would refuse because they just do not feel sexually attracted to you.

4) They go to the bedroom with you and enjoy the FWB. It's just sex with a dear friend.

5) They pick you up and carry you to bed and ravage you like they have been waiting for you to come to your senses since they have known you.

6) Other -- you explain

I suspect most women would insist that all three of these guys would pass on the opportunity.

What do you think they would do? What do you think your real male friends would do?


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## lovelygirl

hurtbeyondmeasure said:


> but now after 2 yrs, it has become a HUGE problem for him. he told me that if my attitude does not change then he is leaving me. he has been so mean to me to the point i am scared to say anything to him..


During these 2 years, have you given him any reason for why he changed his attitude? 
Have you gotten closer to your male friends? 
Have you shown less affection to him?


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## galian84

I used to be okay with opposite sex friends, in past relationships. Now, not so much, and my boyfriend feels the same way, fortunately.

My first relationship was destroyed by cheating...my ex was good friends with a girl, who he talked about a lot. A few months later, he came to me crying saying he had made out with her at a party and was sorry. I never trusted him again after that. My last relationship, which lasted 5 years, my ex would always fight with me on the topic, and accused me of not trusting him, that the girls were "just friends" (of course...). He used to stay out until 3AM "studying" with other girls, having lunch/dinner with them alone, and picking them up/dropping them off at home late at night. Now, though I believe he never physically cheated, if I knew him, I still never felt that it was "normal".

My current boyfriend and I agreed that neither of us want the other to have close friends of the opposite sex. Acquaintances and friends of the couple are fine. Both of us know we'll have to associate with the opposite sex at work, and we're okay with that as long as it never continues past the workplace, or school. 

Before we began dating, he was quite close to a female coworker of his, and I was quite close to a male classmate, as well as my exes. Since we have grown more serious in the relationship, we greatly minimized our contact outside work/school with them out of respect for each other. I'm of the mind that there is nothing that a male friend can give me that my boyfriend or girlfriends can't, and so is he.

And we agreed that if anybody made the other uncomfortable, we would listen to each other and respect the other's wishes. As my boyfriend always says to me..."Lead us not into temptation" So we prefer to keep ourselves out of those situations in the first place.


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## stoney1215

this is a simple one . ask yourself , can you have a friendship with a person of the opposite sex ? if you answered yes , then what would make you think that your spouse could not . if you answered no , what is the reason for this ? do you think that your spouse has the same issues with the opposite sex that you do ? if you answered no then obviously you do not consider your spouse a friend . does your spouse know his ? 
to make a long story short ... of course they can . although men and women do not usually develope friendships it is mostly due to differences in interests and thought processes . nothing else .


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## stoney1215

if these friends were women , would you have stepped in and put a stop to it ? would you have had a biiiig problem with it ? seems to me like you did not trust your partner . i personally could not consider having a relationship with someone i dont trust . i am with my wife because i want to be with her . i am faithful to her because i choose to be fithfull to her . i would not cheat on my wife . it does not have anything to do with anyone other than me . if you are a cheater , you are a cheater , if you are not , you are not . it has nothing to do with anyone other than you .


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## stoney1215

i would feel disrespected , and be offended if my wife tried to prevent me from having a friendship with who ever i wanted to be friends with .
i am a grown man , i am fully capeable of deciding for myself who i am and am not friends with . if my wife does not trust me and believe in me enough to know that i do not want anyone but her and would never even consider cheating on her then she needs to reassess her relationship with me . 
i have no interest in controling my wife . she is a grown woman . she is my partner not my property . if i for even one second thought that my wife would cheat on me it would mean to me that i do not trust her completely . if i ever felt that i did not trust my wife then there would be no reason for me to continue being married to her .


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## stoney1215

whether or not you want to remove their pants should not be an issue . whether or not you would cheat on your spouse is the issue . if you would cheat on your spouse it doesnt matter if it was someone that was a friend or someone you worked with or someone you just met in a bar . you would cheat on your spouse because of you , not the other person .


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## stoney1215

i am confused can your husband have friends of the opposite sex because you trust your husband ? or can your husband have friends of the opposite sex because you trust the woman ? i could not tell for sure but it seemed to me like it is because you trust the other woman . 
if this is the case i have a couple questions trust her to do or not do what ? what do you trust this woman to do or not do more than you trust your husband to do or not do ? and most importantly ....... if you trust your husband then what does the other woman have to do with anything ? would you cheat on your husband with a man he did not trust or not cheat on him because he trusted the man ? or would you not cheat on your husband because you would not cheat on him ? dont you think the same applies to him ? 
i dont know just seems logical to me ........


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## Bambusa

My husband I both have friends of the opposite sex. 

We both trust each other enough to behave appropriately and we do not feel threatened by it..

Oh and for the record. We do NOT have an open relationship.


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## NextTimeAround

For me the test would be how does that person address our relationship? If I feel that she's doing everything to bypass contact with me, that would be a red flag. IF I felt that plans were being made without my input, red flag and so on. So yeah, while I am open to opposite sex friendships in a marriage, I definitely want both male and female friendships to address the marriage.


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## stoney1215

i agree with everything you said . but the begining and end is and should be your relationship and trust with your spouse . he/she would not continue or even allow those scenarios to happen and if he/she did that is a definite RED FLAG not about the woman , but about your relationship .


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## Bambusa

I put this one to my husband last night and we're both on the same page with this one. He said he couldn't imagine having to think about having to set boundaries for me or vice versa. Trust is a big thing for him too and if he had to think about what boundaries to put in place in case I 'might' cheat he'd rather not be in the relationship to begin with.


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## NextTimeAround

stoney1215 said:


> i agree with everything you said . but the begining and end is and should be your relationship and trust with your spouse . he/she would not continue or even allow those scenarios to happen and* if he/she did that is a definite RED FLAG not about the woman , but about your relationship *.


Agreed when my partner does nothing to discourage this behaviour. But even when he does, the fact that someone would even try it on would make me want to excise her completely from our lives. I'm really tired of giving people second chances. If they don't understand certain social protocols, they will have to learn them somewhere else.


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## fishfast41

Hmmm just read through a lot of, but not all, of this thread. I see a lot of ifs,ands, or buts,and some rationalizing as well. Bottom Line...OS friends one on one is a danger to any marriage.Might turn into an affair, might not, but why risk the marriage? One more point.. If it's ok to, in effect, date another person, is this really a marriage? As far as I'm concerned..an open marriage isn't really a marriage at all..Isn't the exclusivity of the relationship on this level a huge part of what makes it a marriage?


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## jaquen

My wife and I don't police one another's friends. We were best friends long before we got with one another, and as long as we've known one another we've both had mixed sex friendships. It would seem completely absurd to us to suddenly try and bring a hammer down over opposite sex friend after being in each other's lives for damn near 20 years.

I can hang out with whomever I chose, and my wife has the exact same freedom. If your spouse is going to cheat on you, they're going to cheat on you, period. It won't be because they were allowed to have friends of the opposing sex.


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