# What are the signs of going underground?



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Okay, I deleted my prior threads on here because they were stale. Quick recap - wife had deep EA, no PA with a long time friend that I also knew. Caught it myself, she lied several times. She is in NC with the OM and we are doing better than I ever expected. About 5 weeks past DDay.

At first she felt "violated" that I was checking on her after the NC. Since then we have had umpteen productive talks, sex for 6 nights in a row, gone on a couple of dates, and the phone records are clear. She really seems to "get it" every time we discuss our marriage, what happened, and where we need to go from here. Really good stuff, actually.

Last night she said, "you know, if you really need to check up on me to feel better about all this, I want you to go ahead and do that. I love you and want you to heal."

Part of me thinks YET ANOTHER BREAKTHROUGH, YAHOO! The other part of me is suspicious that she has opened her heart to this door because she found a new underground method to talk to the OM.

What are the signs things have gone underground? She knows how I caught her before. Things have been so good and I really have no reason to suspect her right now but I want to be a little bit guarded still.


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## maxter (May 24, 2011)

I say exercise extreme caution. I think she's changed to much to fast. It's only been 5wks! I don't think the fog can have cleared for her in this short of a time. Sorry to be pessimistic. But just reading your enthusiasm and her responses sets my 'gut' alarm off.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

We've been very open - I may call her out on her change of stance and see what she says. But we'll be geographically separated for a few days, I may wait to hit that subject when that period ends. Our kids are gone too - with their grandparents for awhile.

She does know that if she breaks the NC, I will file for separation. I have made that very clear. She is on her last strike. Something funny - during these next few days where we will be apart (and I'll have no kids with me either), she said to me last night she was more worried about what I might do, like pick up some woman at a bar, let my mind go crazy thinking about everything etc, and has reiterated to me several times that I have nothing to worry about with her.

She acknowledged that her words don't hold a lot of water right now given the lies from a few weeks ago. But I do sense that she gets it, and the fog is lifting. Just being cautious, like you said.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

It's always hard to say as some WS are very good at hiding that is has gone deeper, key for you is to be vigilant, look at the behaviours , meet her unexpectantly for lunch. What you can't do is spend your life spying on her , I will strongly suggest you load a mobile phone spyware and look out for a spare phone, often a VAR in the car catches them .

I have had a case where the husband caught his wife after three months after is supposedly ended ,her behaviour was perfect , great in bed. He hid a couple of VAR's and loaded a keylogger. There were no indications of an ongoing affair other than his gut feeling and her recovery being to quick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StrugglingMan (May 20, 2011)

I am right there w/you. My wife has also expressed concerns that even though i have committed to R, that I will change my mind and suddenly leave.

She's also concerned that I would go out for a revenge fling. 

I don't know how common that is, but it's not even on my radar. 

If you spot any warning signs on going underground, please post what they are. I'm running into a lot of the same things you are so I'll be comparing notes w/you a lot!


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Another way is to ensure the process of working on the marriage does not give time for an affair. Draw up a list of suggested extraordinary precautions that your wife should follow e.g she calls you when she leaves work, you activate the tracker on her phone so you know her movements etc. There may be some examples on the marriage builders site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I understand your concern, I was the same way. After my wife and I both ended our affairs and agreed to commit to each other, we were both going through what you are.
It takes time, but until you feel comfortable, check up on her.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I understand your concern, I was the same way. After my wife and I both ended our affairs and agreed to commit to each other, we were both going through what you are.
It takes time, but until you feel comfortable, check up on her.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

It's understandable to feel that way. We call it "trust but verify."

Others can probably help you with specific signs of going underground. One that I experienced was similar to yours: she appeared to become more open in discussing that her EA partner had tried to contact her through her work email, but she ignored him and put him on her blocked senders list. I wish I could tell you exactly what it was...it was part just a gut feeling and part following "trust but verify" that led me to check her work email. She was working from home at the time, so had a work computer. She'd also set up a new yahoo ID to allow IM with a long-time friend we work with who'd offered to serve as a resource for helping her iron out kinks in her work from home system. I checked her work email and found that, yes, her EA partner was indeed on her blocked senders list...AND the safe senders list. And there were a few emails in both directions that appeared to just be tests to make sure having him on both lists would still allow emails to go through. I also saw a yahoo IM pop up before I left for work one morning, from someone not on her contact list, which she quickly closed.

As I turned out, she'd been using the new yahoo address to continue communication, as well as using the yahoo IM app on her phone for IM's (so as not to leave a trace on the computer).

Ultimately, I guess it just boils down to observation of patterns, staying vigilant and seeing what avenues of communication have been made available that might make it harder for you to trace. Not to mention, trust in your "Spidey-Sense"...it's usually right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

There ARE no signs of an affair going underground, if she's smart and got wise. That's why they call it going underground.

Btw. She could really be honest with you. Take that into consideration too. Your trust will take time to heal, so you will always think the worst.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yes. These posters seem to have it right. Trust, but verify.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

All makes sense. I want to believe her, and she's been so amorous, affectionate, lots of texts and checking up on how I am doing. We've talked about the future, etc, etc. It all really seems like R to me, but I'm just a bit concerned at the speed of it all. But at the same time, we've both gone through all the script stages at alarming speeds - so this might just be how we are working through it.

Last night we had a great time and talked about heavy stuff too, in a very mature way, unafraid, not withholding things. She divulged to me that one of her friends at first was very angry with me (my emotional neglect), but my wife defended me, and this friend seems to have turned around some. That was pretty telling, not just that she defended me, but that she told me about this. 

Everything is going alarmingly well but I am doubly afraid to get burned again.


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## Undertheradar (May 11, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Okay, I deleted my prior threads on here because they were stale. Quick recap - wife had deep EA, no PA with a long time friend that I also knew. Caught it myself, she lied several times. She is in NC with the OM and we are doing better than I ever expected. About 5 weeks past DDay.
> 
> At first she felt "violated" that I was checking on her after the NC. Since then we have had umpteen productive talks, sex for 6 nights in a row, gone on a couple of dates, and the phone records are clear. She really seems to "get it" every time we discuss our marriage, what happened, and where we need to go from here. Really good stuff, actually.
> 
> ...


Knowing me, I probably would have thrown her a curve with something like.... "I won't have to.... Because of everything we went through, I hired a private investigative service. They've been tracking you for months.
I'll probably have the report in a few days"

Watch her face, then laugh my ass off!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

LOL - funny, but not productive!

Thinking about it more, her telling me to just check on her if it makes me feel better tells me one of two things

1) go ahead, I have nothing more to hide, I am at peace now that I've moved on (whereas before she wasn't quite ready to stop)

or

2) go ahead, I've got a new way to talk to him that you'll never catch with your methods

I put the odds of #1 being true at maybe 75%.


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## StrugglingMan (May 20, 2011)

Our situations are so similar it's a little scary. Quick turnarounds by both of us, very loving and committed. She was very depressed for a while at the loss of the EA (she started EA, went PA, ended it and went back to EA until dday) but now seems very committed to pulling her share of the load. 

Honestly, it's the best our marriage has ever been and it scares the holy bejesus out of me. Hope it holds steady and we just keep solidifying where we are.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Undertheradar said:


> Knowing me, I probably would have thrown her a curve with something like.... "I won't have to.... Because of everything we went through, I hired a private investigative service. They've been tracking you for months.
> I'll probably have the report in a few days"
> 
> Watch her face, then laugh my ass off!


This reminds me of something I did that I'm maybe not so proud of, as I was asking "one final time" if there was anything else she wanted to tell me about 'how far it had gone physically'... she stood firm that I had all the details, and then I said, "Well I've got pictures that suggest otherwise, so before I go get them and end this entire thing, I will ask you once more".

She stayed firm - there was nothing else. Only then did I choose to believe her.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

This is a tough situation. Have you disclosed any of your investigation methods? Has she discovered how you were/are monitoring her? 

I understand her quick turnaround may seem to be a little to good to be true, and you know what they usually say about that. However, like others have said, it may really be that she is remorseful and transparent.

To tell you the truth, I was in the exact same boat as you. My wife's attitude turn around pretty quickly after I got firm with her. I was suspicious for months, monitoring, but finding nothing. 

The thing is, her behavior has been consistent for months and hasnt changed. No unknown mood swings like being sad one day and then giddy the next. One would assume that if they got their "fix" from breaking NC, they would act happy, or they would be sad if they had contact and they suddenly havent been able to contact each other for a while.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Getting a phony name for the jerk she cheated with.

Tears.

Any words spoken.

Unusual errands to run that result in no purchases or far less than 4 hours would suggest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

She knows most of my methods of monitoring. 

I check browsing history (she doesn't know this)

I check phone records (she knows this)

Only once did I call Sprint about texting history (I told her this too, big mistake). Sprint doesn't release text info, but you can ask specific questions and they'll give you specific answers. FYI

I check her email (she assumes this since this is how I caught her)

I've popped in on her at work to make sure she's really there (she loved it that I popped in and thought it was a nice surprise - unaware of my motives).

Thing is, there is always a way to hide it. Alternate cell phone I would never know about, new email account (although my browsing history check would show this if she doesn't delete just select items from the history). I have not used a VAR or keylogger. I am of the opinion that if I have to do this I might as well just end it with her.

It all really has gone amazingly well. She tells me that I am now meeting her needs and she doesn't feel the need to go anywhere else. She says she is starting to fall back in love. 

We are going away for a 4 day trip just the two of us in 9 days. We are both totally looking forward to it and talk about it constantly. I just don't want to be a fool again, and my trust isn't fully healed yet.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Well. When you decided to reconcile, did you say....if I EVER catch this sh$t again, we are through. No question about it!

If you did that, she may have gotten the "hint", and understands your boundaries, but also realizes you mean business and won't hesitate to end things if it comes to that. And for her to realize that means she also realizes what's at stake for her to lose if she does continue with the EA. This may be a reason why your progression is going faster than average. 

Then, what you did was lay out the law. same reason why we all don't go out and rob banks. The risk of punishment is guaranteed if we get caught. 

Also...I wouldn't fear of getting burnt again. This is something you can't control. Sh either will or will not burn you. Tomorrow...or in five years. You just don't know. So, as much as you can, enjoy the moments now...and stop fearing the what If's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Alpha that is good advice actually. And yes, I did lay down that law. I probably did scare the sh*t out of her by doing so. Which is the point. Stay in your current life with the family unit (we have 3 kids) and keep the stability and recommitted loving husband, or, continue talking to the OM and lose all of that.

I think the choice is clear, and I think she does too. But I do know that EAs are hard to break, especially when it happens with a friend she's had for 20 years.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

So...speaking from experience....in about two or three months....because of the long friendship...expect the next part of the script to be fishing. But...it will most likely be from him. If that is a deal breaker...then fine. But you may just have to remind her again that this will be unacceptable. And...him too if your up to that.

The fishing will start out innocent enough....a quick hello...how are you doing. He may even say...I really miss you. Now she may just lay down the law too, and tell him it is inappropriate for any communication. That would be the best outcome, of course.

Not to kill your high....but I still think you should enjoy the now moments and strengthen your marriage as best you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

EAs aren't hard to break. As long as that is what she wants. And if she didn't get that full high from doing it, then there is less withdrawl. Thus, faster recovery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

She got the high. Guarantee it. I'm not disclosing all the details - just know the EA was pretty deep and she got the high. 

Thing is, the OM was a platonic friend for a very long time - a guy I got to know as well. And he's a bit strange, not my wife's type at all (not a loser or anything, just different). The EA was only at the very end, very recent, as she opened up to him about our marital issues. She fell in love with him because he "said all the right things and has always been there for me". But in reality, she knows he is uncomfortable around children, lives in a crappy apartment (we live in a 4 BR house), has a weird dark side, etc. I honestly think she just shook her head and came to her senses. 

My concern is that because they were friends for so long, the fishing element could come into play with innocent intentions at first.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> So...speaking from experience....in about two or three months....because of the long friendship...expect the next part of the script to be fishing. But...it will most likely be from him. If that is a deal breaker...then fine. But you may just have to remind her again that this will be unacceptable. And...him too if your up to that.
> 
> The fishing will start out innocent enough....a quick hello...how are you doing. He may even say...I really miss you. Now she may just lay down the law too, and tell him it is inappropriate for any communication. That would be the best outcome, of course.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Fishing is usually the next part of the script after NC has been established alright. In my case, OM fished about 3 weeks after DDay, he sent a PM to my WWs secret facebook account. Thing is he obviously didn't know that I had already had the password, changed it, and had full control over it. Saying stuff like, How Are You, Are You Ok, I love you, I miss you, I will always think about you, etc,. Pissed me off. Showed it to the WW and had her reply in front of me to never contact her again. OM even tried fishing again 10 days later leaving a voice mail on her phone, which I already controlled. Same thing. Nothing since. 

I checked religiously using keyloggers and a VAR for months after that. Why? For my own sanity and I began to feel safe and feel trust again. If NC is broken, she knows the deal, and she's knows of the financial devastation it will bring. She has no idea how I monitored her but she knows how high tech I am, so she never asked. Trust but verify is my mantra, and I won't be caught unawares again. Now I'm comfortable to the point where I even forget to check sometimes, or when the last time I checked was. The gut feeling has gone away.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I like your insight Alphaomega! 

Agree to be watchful for the fishing Gabriel. The OW fished for the first time about 4 months after d-day. She tried calling my H at work, but didn't leave a message. He saw the caller id and kind of freaked. He was really surprised and worried it was about something important, like maybe they were going to be called into HR for their affair or something. 

The best thing is to be supportive of your wife if she says the OM attempted contact. It could leave her a mess emotionally, even I noticed my H needed a little hand holding to deal with it. The fishing sucks by the way. The DS feels vulnerable because they're unsure if we'll ever forgive them, guilty for what they did to us, and added guilt for ditching the OW/OM on a dime. It's very overwhelming and when the OW/OM fishes, it makes the DS feel worse for ignoring them or being cold. As my H said, he doesn't want the OW to think he's an a-hole and used her. I nicely pointed out, you were an a-hole and in a way you did use her, it's best for everyone if she does hate you. Someone with self-esteem issues HATES the idea of anyone in the world thinking ill of them. He knows it's just something he'll have to live with if he wants to be with me.

By the way, these types of conversations with my H are helpful in making me feel like he has not gone underground. Otherwise, why would he risk pi$$ing me off by mentioning he feels bad by ignoring or acting cold to the OW's fishing? It hurts to hear, but it makes sense and is understandable given the circumstances. He knows this situation hurts me more than her, so of course he's going to stick to NC, but he admits it's hard to act like he doesn't care at all about how she's doing.

Good luck and I hope all of us are not dealing with DS that has gone underground. My H knows, I'd be done too. I couldn't handle any more betrayal at this point. It's already a struggle building trust and another betrayal on that magnitude would be too much.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

If your wife has friends, that are down on you, for trying to keep your mge., than those type of friends need to be gone---they are just enabling her, and stabbing at your back----once again it becomes what does she want her friends, or her mge., and family.

In all actuality there are no real ways to check on your wife if she decides to go deeply underground, as she will implement her contact with things that you will never no exist----all you can really do is look for changed plans, things that are out of the ordinary---or put a PI on her---otherwise there is really nothing you can do, if she wants to make contact it will happen, so you don't find out----It boils down to trust, and at this point I doubt if you have very much


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> My concern is that because they were friends for so long, the fishing element could come into play with innocent intentions at first.


And that's all it takes.

"Are you okay?"

"Are you alright?"

"Just wanted to check up on and see if you were okay because I haven't heard from you"

Well then, you already said that if you have to use a keylogger and a VAR, then you might as well end it right? You also said that there are ways to hide it, never mind that the keylogger and the VAR are tried and true methods of countering them. It's basically up to you what you want to do. Would you be ready for a DDay#2 and the realization that you might be in False R? Or you can verify that your WW is true to her word and that OM is not fishing right now, and if he does, you are ready for it and ease your concern. You can't put a price on peace of mind.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Saffron - that is fantastic advice (it all is, but this post really hit home). Being proactive with her, telling her that it's okay to tell me if he fishes, that it's natural for her to have guilty feelings about using him, that the need to see if he is okay is a natural reaction to all of this, but to support her in staying strong. I will bring this up to her next week when we are geographically reunited.

I suppose that if he fishes, she should just say, "I'm doing great. Please don't contact me again."

I also need to stress how innocent fishing on her end to make sure he is okay in the aftermath is just reopening doors. I did say this to her in an indirect way.

And no, trust is not there yet. I feel better than I did a couple of weeks ago, but I would be a fool to blindly trust so soon.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

NZ - that's reasurring. Thanks. How far past DDay are you now? Did problems surface after 5-6 weeks for you, or was it pretty smooth after that?


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Glad my post was helpful Gabriel! I should add that MC helps both of us deal with all these crazy emotions and feelings. I'm lucky we have an excellent therapist, her primary goal is help us both become better and more mature people.

Our MC agrees that there really is no such thing as "closure", it's just an attempt to satisfy selfish needs to make yourself feel better. She warned my DS that his idea of what closure may achieve is just that, an idea. Telling the OW whatever it is he feels the need to say, may not have the desired response he's looking to get. He may be looking to relieve guilt and find peace, but it just might make her sad or angry. So then when my H would try to come up with good responses to the OW's fishing in therapy, our MC reminded him that "No" is a complete sentence. Good advice for everyone and something to teach our children too for that matter.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Thing is, there is always a way to hide it. Alternate cell phone I would never know about, new email account (although my browsing history check would show this if she doesn't delete just select items from the history). I have not used a VAR or keylogger. I am of the opinion that if I have to do this I might as well just end it with her.


Select items from the history can easily be deleted. I used the checking the history feature for a while and found some stuff. After that, she obviously deletes certain items. Even things that aren't off, just all her history. 



Gabriel said:


> It all really has gone amazingly well. She tells me that I am now meeting her needs and she doesn't feel the need to go anywhere else. She says she is starting to fall back in love.
> 
> We are going away for a 4 day trip just the two of us in 9 days. We are both totally looking forward to it and talk about it constantly. I just don't want to be a fool again, and my trust isn't fully healed yet.


I hope it is as it seems on the surface. You asked for signs of underground. Which level do you want? Underground 1, 2, 3, or 4? lol

Changes in patterns - moved from taking walks during the day with the kids to taking walks at night alone. (Yes, she did have a prepaid phone. I believe that was the second one.)

Someone else mentioned unreasonable shopping trips - just had to go to Wal-Mart to buy son some clothes with no function or anything in the immediate future. I do believe that was the night the second prepaid phone was purchased.

Your gut. It is probably the most powerful. 

You don't want to go with the electronic surveillance. Just go on faith, then. As my counsellor told me, truth and time are on the same side. IF she is underground, it will come out sooner or later.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Gabriel said:


> I have not used a VAR or keylogger. I am of the opinion that if I have to do this I might as well just end it with her.


I just want to put a thought in your head. Maybe reset your thinking, or at least have you circle back and take another look...

Are you of the opinion if you have to lock the doors or put the alarm on at your home, you should just sell the house and move? 

What if you had been broken into already? your most personal things had been violated?

Sounds like you decided to "keep the house", and it sounds like a GREAT house... But you no longer have the benefit of being nieve, even if it was just random and likely would never happen again... bad things have happened in this neighboorhood. 

Maybe you would sleep easier (and might not be asking the question you ask in this thread) if you locked up and considered getting a guard dog?

Not implying anything, you sound like you guys are doing great and I wish you continued hapiness.

Again, it was just a thought.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Pit, I hear you. I'm just not wanting to go VAR/keylogger drastic, yet. 

I will say this, I called Sprint tonight, and asked them to verify no texts between her number and his, and it's been clean since the NC.

She knows I have checked this before, so I take it with a grain of salt, but it was nice to get this verification nonetheless.

Feeling pretty good, just cautious.


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