# Is there any hope



## hopefulhubby

Hello friends,

This is my first post. It is amazing to see all the caring people in these forums. Thanks in advance for anything that may come back from this post. 

I came to this forum hoping to get some advice on how to save my marriage. I am desperate for some hope, even the smallest chance, but after reading all the advice in all these forums, I think it may be totally hopeless and I need to face the painful reality. Maybe my post is now to seek advice in helping me through divorce rather than how to save my marriage but if there is any hope at all - no matter how small, please let me know.

We started having problems in Nov last year (end of 2013). Our entire marriage (and lives) collapsed in less than 2 months. We had close to the perfect marriage for 18 years. We have been together for 25 years. We have had our ups and downs like everyone, but never anything serious - not even close. We loved each other dearly. We have never once even had a really serious fight in all those years. We have 2 beautiful children (boy 12 and girl 14) and so many amazing memories. I have thousands of hours of happy home videos with memories, birthdays, Christmas and our home was always filled with friends and joy. Her scrapbooks alone tell a total fairy tale story of our happy lives.

We are financially very comfortable. I make 150k and she has her own small on-line business and makes about 50k to 70k varying from year to year - almost all of her money is leisure money as I take care of 100% of all expenses. We have no debt.

We became really close in the last few years since the kids have grown up a bit. We have travelled and had date night every week and spent a lot more time together. In fact, we have never been closer and totally in love. Our friends and family constantly comment on how devoted I am to her and the kids and how I have spoilt them. I love her (and our children) more than life itself and I would do anything for them.

So what on earth happened?

The short version is she has fallen deeply in love with someone else.

This is not a mid-life crisis or anything like that. This is not because of a lack of attention - she gets a lot of romance and attention from me. She was pampered by me almost daily. I give her plenty of physical attention, touch, and intimacy. Gosh, we held hands in public and private after 25 years together. I also spoil her materially with cars, clothes, money, overseas trips, gifts, etc. She gets anything she wants and more. She deserved it all. She was an amazing wife, mother, lover and friend. I was so happy with her, I actually began writing a book called “the art of happiness” about our amazing life and love. How ironic.

We had a big circle of friends and we have Friday night socials and dinner parties with all our friends, we camped and traveled and had loads of fun. One couple that was part of our friendship circle became really good friends. We camped any BBQ’ed with them often and had lots of great times together. They have kids (a little older than ours) but even our kids got along great.

Little did we know, but he was a predator. He is a good looking guy and he goes after woman. He went after my wife and she completely fell for him in the worst way imaginable. They were only seeing each other for a few weeks until I found out in Nov last year, but by then it was too late. The butterflies were intoxicating and she had fallen madly in love with him. 

When I found out, I was quite upset. I asked him to meet my wife and me at a local sports bar and I told him to stay away from her. He point blank told me “No way” - right to my face in front of her. I could not believe it. We ended up having a shouting match at the sports bar causing a bit of a scene and had to leave rather quickly.

We drove home and we had a big argument (the first of so many). I asked her to please stay away from him forever. We were at a restaurant the next day and she told me she can’t stop seeing him. These words were such a shock to me that I suffered a massive panic attack. I have never had my body convulse completely out of my control and I had no idea what was happening to me. (I now know what it must be like for people that suffer seizures or fits). I was hyperventilating, causing a bit of a scene in the restaurant, so I ran into the bathroom to try and control myself, but it got worse, so I dashed out to the car and began convulsing out of control for about 30 minutes. It was a horrible experience. I could not talk and was folding in half gasping for air for about 20 minutes. When I finally came to, she told me I am just upset about work. What? It was at this point that I realized that he has complete power over her. She could not even have sympathy for what had just happened to me. It dawned on me that she is completely in love with him. I wept uncontrollably for many hours.

I was in a daze for a day or two and had some suicidal thoughts. I was in a situation over which I had zero control. It was the worst feeling in the world. What made it hard was that we had not done anything or had any problems, this just came out of nowhere.

He has incredible power over her and unless you see it, it is almost impossible to believe. He tells her what to do and completely controls her. When she sees him she melts and begins to cry. 

Of course when his wife found out about them, she left him and shortly after filed for divorce. Their divorce will be final in a few weeks.

So I have been trying to work with my wife for months to try and sort this out. We have tried everything you can imagine - therapy, arguing, debating, pleading, begging. She just has no control over the situation. She lies and sneaks around and does the most unbelievable things just to be with him. She just can't help herself. She is in a really strange state of mind, almost like a compulsive drug addict. Her only defense is to say she had no choice but to find happiness with someone else because I have many faults. Its completely bizarre. (Even though I do have many faults).

As you can imagine, it has been killing me to see her like this. I will try not to speak of what it has done to me over the months. Suffice it to say that the panic attack I described earlier is merely the tip of the iceberg. After months and months of ill treatment and quite frankly pure cruelty towards me, I asked her to please stop or she will have to leave since it is destroying her and starting to have quite a bad impact on our children. (It had long ago destroyed me and our marriage) but I could not bear to to see her continue on such a destructive path. We are now the gossip topic for our entire friendship circle and we no longer have social events or BBQs. We are no longer invited to camping trips. We have basically been rejected by everyone. We have lost all our friends. Our best and closest friends came to tell me that my wife is embarrassing herself because every time “he” comes over, she quickly makes an excuse and they sneak out together. This was the last conversation I had with my once best friend nearly 6 months ago. By now, we have lost every single one of our friends - this is not an exaggeration - we do not have one single friend. I have over 300 contacts in my phone and I have not had a single text message or phone call from anyone in months. We have not been to a BBQ or dinner or even a social visit for many months and no one has come over or even called. (Hardships reveals your true friends - sadly, to our astonishing discovery we had no “true” friends. We were always each others best and closest friends).

About 3 weeks ago, she left home. She came back from a trip to NY and she was being particularly mean to me with criticism and when I asked her why she was being so cruel, she told me she no longer cares for me. The next morning, she said she was going out to see her “friend”. I told her that if she continues with this behavior, she can no longer stay at home and she will have to leave. That was very hard for me, knowing the state she is in, but perhaps some tough love would help her come to her senses. Of course this backfired and she went running straight to him. I asked her why she is not taking the time apart to reflect on what our situation has come to. She says that since I "kicked her out", she has the right to now be with him openly. 

But unfortunately, he is not interested in looking after her - even though he has a huge house all to himself since his wife left. So my wife had to stay with one of her girl-friends. In fact, her lover actually has another girlfriend and so he just wants to mess around with my wife on the side, which she is happy to take as long as she can just be with him. I know this seems impossible, like I am making this up. (I wish that were true). Like I mentioned before, unless you see the complete power he has over her, you won’t believe it. No amount of reasoning, pleading or therapy can get her to come to her senses. She is powerless. She is in a free fall and is throwing her marriage away. She has hardly any money and no place to live, but she just wants to be available for him when he feels like her. It is a truly tragic situation. 


After 3 weeks of seeing her on this destructive path, I asked her to come back home. I wrote an email to him asking him to break off with her for the sake of our children. A week later she came back and gave me a long list of conditions for her return. It's basically all an act for our kids. She told me that she is still seeing him. She is being particularly hurtful since she has been back (4 days) she has gone off to see him twice, snubbing me in conversations and making sure we do not touch at all, even trying to avoid brushing against me. I asked her if we could go to couples therapy - she said emphatically "No!". She has had some counseling, but she dismisses the session quickly and does not want to go back as she does not want them to tell her she is doing anything wrong - she knows it, but can't help herself. So, sadly, we have not had any couples counseling. 

On Sat, she made up all sorts of reasons about us going to a parade for work reasons. It sounded like fun, so we went as a family, but it was so she could see him as she knew he would be there. I only realized afterwards. We saw him with his girlfriend and my wife cried when she saw them together. She truly longs for him and loves him so much. It's like she is under a spell.

I too have been to therapy to try and cope - I have seen several therapists in fact and each one of them say the same thing: “What are you still doing there?” I bet some of you might be wondering the same thing. (I sometimes do - but like I told you earlier, I love her more than life itself). I bet you are in total disbelief about this and think this cannot be true. Believe me, I have spared you from much ugliness, but sadly, this is not a bad dream, this has happened and is happening.

I am trying not to blame her. I guess this could happen to anyone. I wish she could somehow break the bond that is trapping her. I know she is in a lot of pain and turmoil, especially since he does not want her (except on the side). She believes this is the only thing that can make her happy. Her feelings are all messed up. She is not coping too well.

So now what. I will be honest, I don't know what to do. I don't even really know how to cope. I have not slept in months. The long debates and discussions have stopped. The days and nights are long, quiet and very lonely. Therapy has not helped me at all. Now that she is back, its like living with a roommate who despises you does not want to talk to you. It has been extremely hard to call my parents each week and pretend like everything is ok. My best friend from high school and his wife and his family came to visit (passing through town) while she was away and I was dying to to tell someone, anyone, just to talk about - but I did not say a thing. I told them we got the of their visit dates wrong and that my wife was visiting with a friend. They left and I never said a word. So no-one knows anything - until now. Now you all know.

In this forum I have read some advice to others along the lines of: "Stop begging - its unattractive" - I wish I had tried that, I have stopped pleading with her now, but I guess it's too late.

So now what? How do I spare my children from pain? Is it better for me to just move to another state and get away from it all? She can have everything. I am at my end - I can't sleep or function. Any advice will be most welcome. Thanks in advance.


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## Willowfin

When something seems hopeless - I always ask myself - Where would I like to be in a year from now? So mentally and emotionally - where would you like to be? 
Please stop making excuses for your wife - 'She seems helpless' etc etc. She is a grown woman and will seem 'helpless' as long as you are giving her a safe haven. She has lost all respect for you (and herself it would seem). This won't change anytime soon unless you change your behaviour and tolerance levels.

I appreciate that you feel a certain responsibility towards her (after spending so many years together - but also because you love her) but use it wisely. Let her move out and stay with her female pal. Make sure that she is ok for money etc - but leave it at that. 

Friends that were once in abundance might just not want to get caught in the cross-fire, or else are highly aware of this guy's behaviour. 
You can ease the eventual pain on your children, by being honest, after all they are adults. 
Do not run away to another state - and letting her have everything is just simply foolish, as she'll probably waste it and you (both) will regret it.


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## 3Xnocharm

She is in the affair fog. She is going to have to hit bottom to get out of it. Of course he didnt take her in, he is a low life player. I feel terrible for his (ex) wife. 

You should not have let her come back. She will not hit that necessary bottom as long as you are taking care of her and supporting her. Tell her she needs to leave. File for divorce, you can always stop it at any point. You need to do the 180 on her, and detach. This is for you, not her. You need to face the fact that you may have lost your wife for good, and be prepared to continue life without her. 

If separation, filing, and detaching actually snaps her out of the fog, then she is going to have to do the heavy lifting to save your relationship. She will need to break all contact with the OM, and be transparent in all aspects of her life with you. You will need to do marriage counseling. Of course, you would need to decide if you really want to work on things after all of this, too, but it will be up to her to make it move forward. 

Honestly, your post scares the crap out of me. It sounds like you had an amazing relationship, and you still got cheated on. Makes me want to crawl back under my rock. 

I wish you the best.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi Guys,

Thank you so much for reading my story and offering advice. It's time for me to "man up" and deal with this situation. I borrowed some your phrases and here is the letter I am sending her today...

---
My Dearest M,

I will always love you. But it is now up to you to start making changes.

You came home with conditions. I did not want to give you a hard time about it. I wanted to support you and help you and I was extremely hopeful that you would come to your senses. Unfortunately, you have shown very little desire to reconcile. You do not want to go to counseling. You do not even want to talk about it.

While I let you continue to take advantage of me, you have no respect for me (or yourself for that matter). So here is what needs to happen.

Fix your life. You are a grown woman. I will no longer tolerate your behavior. You are in an affair fog and you probably have to reach rock bottom before you get out of it. You will not hit that necessary bottom as long as I am supporting you and your behavior. 

You need to go stay with Elaine again (or some other "girl" friend). For heavens sake, do NOT assume this is a license to go and sleep around and ruin our marriage. This is your chance to fix your life and save our marriage before it is too late.

If you want to save our relationship, then you are going to have to do the heavy lifting. You will need to break all contact with OM. You will need to be transparent in all aspects of your life with me. You need real counseling, even if you don’t think so. What happened was was no accident. Of course people will fall out of love with each other when they constantly lie to each other. We had complete honesty and complete trust and that is why we were so deeply in love 10 months ago. We can have it again, but it is it is up to you. 

Don’t be fooled into thinking that there is an escape hatch or a clean start or that you can just get away from it all and start over or that you you do not have to face and deal with your problems. There is no easy answer. Unfortunately, you are going to have to to do the hard work that is needed to fix your life.

Come right and then come home. I will always love you no matter what.

---


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## thunderstruck

Just me...I'd leave off those "I will always love you..." lines at the top and bottom, b/c I would leave zero doubt about me serving as Plan B in her little fantasy world. And I know that it would be a lie, at least it would be for me. I couldn't love someone who blew up my family for some POSOM.


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## BrockLanders

hopefulhubby said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> Thank you so much for reading my story and offering advice. It's time for me to "man up" and deal with this situation. I borrowed some your phrases and here is the letter I am sending her today...
> 
> ---
> My Dearest M,
> 
> I will always love you. But it is now up to you to start making changes.
> 
> You came home with conditions. I did not want to give you a hard time about it. I wanted to support you and help you and I was extremely hopeful that you would come to your senses. Unfortunately, you have shown very little desire to reconcile. You do not want to go to counseling. You do not even want to talk about it.
> 
> While I let you continue to take advantage of me, you have no respect for me (or yourself for that matter). So here is what needs to happen.
> 
> Fix your life. You are a grown woman. I will no longer tolerate your behavior. You are in an affair fog and you probably have to reach rock bottom before you get out of it. You will not hit that necessary bottom as long as I am supporting you and your behavior.
> 
> You need to go stay with Elaine again (or some other "girl" friend). For heavens sake, do NOT assume this is a license to go and sleep around and ruin our marriage. This is your chance to fix your life and save our marriage before it is too late.
> 
> If you want to save our relationship, then you are going to have to do the heavy lifting. You will need to break all contact with OM. You will need to be transparent in all aspects of your life with me. You need real counseling, even if you don’t think so. What happened was was no accident. Of course people will fall out of love with each other when they constantly lie to each other. We had complete honesty and complete trust and that is why we were so deeply in love 10 months ago. We can have it again, but it is it is up to you.
> 
> Don’t be fooled into thinking that there is an escape hatch or a clean start or that you can just get away from it all and start over or that you you do not have to face and deal with your problems. There is no easy answer. Unfortunately, you are going to have to to do the hard work that is needed to fix your life.
> 
> Come right and then come home. I will always love you no matter what.
> 
> ---


Too passive IMHO.


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## C3156

I have to agree with the therapists, why do you put up with her behavior? She is a grown woman and fully capable of making her own (poor) decisions. She made her choice and left. Although you don't agree, let her go.

Time to take steps to protect yourself, your money, and your children. Even if you don't eventually divorce, take some action.

- Use the internet and research your state's divorce statutes. Make yourself smarter on your rights. There are websites out there for divorcing Dad's with great information.

- Interview a few family lawyers in your area. Compare the information with your research. Find one that is father friendly. I would put one on retainer just to get the paperwork started. 

- Start keeping a journal of your activities with your children. Document what you do for them and the time you spend with them.

- Make copies of all your important documents and store them in a safe location.

- Open your own bank account and pay all the bills from that account. Don't mix money with your wife any longer.

- Hire a PI to gather information on your wife's activities. Such evidence can be used in court for divorce. Although most states are no-fault, adultry is still on the books in a lot of places and can be used against her.

- TAKE CARE OF YOU! Stop beating yourself in the head about your wifes actions, they are her choice. Go to the gym and work out, ride a bike, whatever. Eat right and get a good nights sleep. Go out and find some new friends, join a divoce group, get into a new hobby (not drinking), get out of the house and have some 'you' time. 

- Be honest with your kids, they are smarter than you think. They know something is up between you and mom, why not just tell them? It can be as simple as "Your mom and I are not in a good place. I am not sure if we can fix it." If they ask if you are getting a divorce, be honest and admit it might happen.


Believe it or not, the heart has the capacity to love more than one person. You can get through this and move on in life and love. You love her right? Sometimes to have to let something go and see if it comes back to you.


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## mablenc

Don't give her the letter yet;

Start reading here
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

And here
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

And maybe Chump lady's blog:
Chump Lady — Leave A Cheater, Gain A Life
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulhubby

OMG - people - thank you. I almost sent that letter/email and after reading through the links and advice, I certainly need to re-consider. Not quite sure hat I am going to do just yet, but I will be doing lots of reading. Thanks again in advance.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi everyone, here is an update. I read forums all day and got some great advice to be more assertive. I re-wrote this letter and emailed her from work. 
Here is the letter I sent.
---
_You came home with conditions. I did not want to give you a hard time about it, but I am not accepting those conditions at all. Furthermore, you have shown very little desire to reconcile. You do not want to go to counseling. You do not even want to talk about it.

So here is what needs to happen. You will need to fix your life. You are a grown woman. I will no longer tolerate your behavior. You are in an affair fog and you probably have to reach rock bottom before you get out of it. You will not hit that necessary bottom as long as I am supporting you and your behavior. 

Don’t be fooled into thinking that there is an escape hatch or a clean start or that you can just get away from it all and start over or that you do not have to face and deal with your problems. There is no easy answer. You are going to have to do the hard work that is needed.

To face reality, here is the challenge that lies ahead of you. In trying to leave him you will experience many of the same withdrawal symptoms that people have when they try to stop using addicting drugs -- intense feelings of anxiety and depression.

You may be so depressed that you feel like dying. You cannot imagine leaving your lover, nor can you imagine leaving your family. You may see no hope. You know you are causing the children and me unbearable pain, yet you cannot stop the affairs. You try to rationalize by thinking that the kids and me will do just fine, but deep down you know that your pleasure is destroying the lives of the ones you love, so you may even consider the unthinkable as a way out of the mess you are in.

The solution is simple. Force an end to all contact with him for life. I may even decide we need to move to another city or state as the only sure way to avoid contact. The bottom line is that he should never be seen again. The temptation to return to the emotional and physical affairs is simply too great to resist.

If you want to save our relationship, then you are going to have to do the heavy lifting. You will need to be transparent in all aspects of your life with me. You need real counseling, even if you don’t think so. What happened was was no accident. Of course people will fall out of love with each other when they constantly lie to each other.

I want to to meet all your emotional needs. If you want me to to do that, then get help and come right. Until then, you need to leave and go stay with your girl friend again. For heavens sake, do NOT assume this is a license to go and sleep around. This is your chance to fix your life and possibly save our marriage before it is too late.
_
----

After an hour, I texted and asked if she received my email. She told me that she was thinking about my email and has contacted a marriage counselor. She said my email was threatening and came across as an ultimatum. I drove home from work and we spoke for a while. I told her to re-read the email and that there are no threats or ultimatums - merely a call for her to end behavior which I will no longer tolerate and its up to her to get help and make changes. She said she cant make the changes I am asking for but wants to be home for the kids whilst not having any relationship with me and wants to continue seeing him on the side. I told her this is unacceptable and she will need to leave until she can decide what she wants to do. I said she is in a fog and I, nor anyone, could ever accept her conditions as what she is asking for is essentially not a marriage. I told her that marriage counselors will tell her the same thing even though she may not want to hear it. She began packing. I carried her suitcase to the car and I asked her to try and get help before rushing into any decisions to throw it all away. She never said a word and then drove off.

I realize my last words to her was one last desperate effort to salvage our marriage - desperate times calls for desperate measures - but I think I need to face reality.

Thanks again in advance for all the advice.


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## LongWalk

File for divorce and ignore her. Stop promising to love her and hold the door open. Cut off her money. As to intimacy and affection, what good is pity or duty sex from a cheater who has romantic feelings for you?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## thunderstruck

LongWalk said:


> File for divorce and ignore her. Stop promising to love her and hold the door open. Cut off her money.


^^THIS. That letter...too much talking, explaining, etc. Your best shot at saving this is to become one cold mofo. File. Cut commo with her to a min.  Kids and the divorce process...at this point, that is all you have to talk about with her. 

Your actions up to now imply that you're willing to be plan B, while she test drives your replacement. Blow up that mindset.


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## cdbaker

Yeah man... I'm sorry but I think you are continuously digging your own grave here, like literally making most every move wrong...

That letter, even the revised one, is still pleading with her, begging. This other guy sounds like an alpha male who can manage a harem quite effectively, and you keep trying to play the beta card that won't enforce anything you've said to her and are repeatedly begging her. When she is in an affair fog and comparing you and him, how do you think that makes you appear? The inexplicable attraction she has to him, even with him dating other women and just using her, is her pure unadulterated lust for him. He acts like an alpha male, while you keep presenting yourself as a beta male. She even proves that she see's you that way by her agreeing to come home only under conditions that a pathetic man would accept, and you accepted them! (Yes I understand you eventually got her to leave via passive-aggressive letters and begging, but allowing her to stay for even a minute under those terms was pathetically beta)

Don't get me wrong, a good man needs to be able to employ beta behaviors from time to time, but a guy who will put up with what you have allowed is attractive to NO woman. Go out and read "The Married Man's Sex Life Primer 2011" as quickly as you can, like right now.

I'm not saying you need to run out and file for divorce right this moment, though I would certainly say it is not a bad idea. Typically the divorce process takes a long time, and can easily be dragged out via continuances, to buy you some time if you think it worth it. But you need to lay down the law, pointedly, in few words. The LAW is that you won't accept her behavior. You won't accept her cheating or having any contact with him whatsoever. No lying. You both need to be in MC and she probably needs to be in IC. Period! These should be clear boundaries that have no flexibility! (I mean, unless you get off on being a cuckold. Go ahead and google the term)

My letter to her would have read:

"M

I'm made a lot of mistakes in the last year or so, but I have now decided to correct these mistakes. I allowed you to cheat on me, disrespect me, use me and ultimately make a fool out of me. Certainly it was my great love for you that led me to that pathetic behavior and indeed makes this difficult for me because I do love you, but this state of affairs has gone on for too long and I will not tolerate it any longer.

Put simply, I will not accept my wife lying to me habitually, cheating on me, using me or seeking to make a fool of me. The fact that this other guy is a scumbag is really irrelevant at this point. You're a big girl and can make your own decisions and face the consequences alone, without my support. I have tolerated and supported your behavior long enough. I will no longer provide for you, lie for you, cover for you or allow you to use me in support of your adulterous behaviors. 

You know full well what myself and others believe you need to do if you decide you want to change course, but understand that the above boundaries are not flexible. This is not an ultimatum, I am merely choosing to enforce a boundary I have long allowed to be violated repeatedly, boundaries that any respectable man would demand. I will be taking time to focus on myself and my own happiness, and I will find healing. In the meantime, I do not wish to see you or communicate with you outside of exchanging necessary information regarding the kids. I ask that you respect that boundary."


Honestly, I would also be meeting with attorneys. In most states, there are genuine benefits to being the first to file for divorce, and you need to be aware of what those are. It might in fact be a very good idea to file quickly in order to protect yourself, and make an enormously powerful point to your wife, and then just take your time to see how she responds to it. I speak from experience too, as I did exactly this when my wife fell for another man and moved out to pursue him fully. Ultimately we did not divorce, and are back together several years later.

Also worth noting, you need to stop trying to tell her what is wrong with her. Coming from you, that will only push her away further. Saying she needs help, she needs to hit rock bottom before she'll wake up, that she needs therapy, that she is in a fog and is being ridiculous, etc. will only serve to piss her off and leave you looking like an *******. That's because she IS in that fog and therefore none of that will make any sense to her. So your words will make you sound like a weak man who has lost his control over her and is trying to make her believe these lies so that she'll need him again and not ever be happy. You (and others I'm sure) have already made these points to her, so repeating them won't do any good and will only make things worse.

It's never too late to turn things around, trust me. I too responded to my wife in all the wrong ways, I was a pathetic fool, but you can turn it around. Either way you WILL be better off for it too. Putting her in a situation where you aren't protecting her from the consequences of her choices, where she can see her choices clearly with no wiggle room, where keeping you as a back-up is no longer an option, are all GOOD THINGS. Either she is crazy and will choose to walk away (though she'll likely return later, be careful of that) or she'll wake up and realize she wants to come back (in which case you need to remain firm and not let her back right away). Right now you might feel that supporting her all this time, being there fore her, repeatedly begging or trying to show her love, etc. has kept you "in the game" in some way, like you are improving your position relative to the OM and might eventually win her back, but it's a fantasy. Her entire focus is on the OM and seeking to please him, win him, be ready for him, etc. She is ABLE to focus her whole being on him PURELY because you have enabled her to do so by taking care of everything else in her world, including her need for security that she so desperately wants the OM to take on.

Taking away that fall-back plan, that security, she'll likely panic. She'll be angry, scared, and desperate, but she has to make a decision. You can't just wait for the OM to fully reject her or for her to decide to give up on him and accept plan b in you, because even if that happens it will only be a matter of time before she finds someone new to latch on to. I know that from experience as well, as my wife engaged in four affairs over a two year period while seeking what she wanted, and latched on to two of them just as inexplicably as your wife has to the OM. One was a married, habitual cheater who did it for fun but had no interest in ending his marriage. (Similar to your OM. She kept going back to him, being available for him, desperately hoping she could convince him to run away with her) The next was a drug addict/alcoholic $9/hr security guard who was twice her age, divorced three times, with no money due to his numerous kids and child support. I share that because the other guy being a scumbag or worthless or whatever doesn't make a difference.

Again, go read the Married Man's Sex Primer 2011 like right now.

If you don't want to at least start the divorce process, at least make yourself aware of the cost of not doing so from a legal perspective. I can perfectly understand a desire to be vulnerable for her, but don't take it too far. If she is going to wake up and figure it all out, it'll happen before the divorce can be finalized anyway.

Best of luck to you man.


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## hopefulhubby

Thank you for the candid advice. I am taking action. No more mr. nice guy. Thanks for reminding me I am not a ***** - even though I have been acting like one. This lion is about to roar!


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## temperance

Your gut turns when the thought of her leaving you forever out of your life, that you are losing her forever, aren't you? 

I am so sorry you are here, like each and everyone of us. It is good that you are able to keep yourself clear headed although I know you must be feeling like you are going through hell. Unfortunately, there's nothing anybody can do other than her and her alone. Like an addict, no one can tell them what they are in is hurting herself and everyone else around her, until the addict admit they have a problem and decided they want to get out. At this moment, no one, especially not you can do anything. And I know it kills you even more when. No amount of begging or expressing how she is hurting you and that it hurts to also see that she is hurting herself, and that nothing you can do about it. Don't try to do anything about it to 'help her'. Tough love. Maybe you can go through a separation, really just kick her out so she can be alone and figure herself out. Do not take her back until she really 'not in love' with this man anymore. For some reason everyone sees separation as a divorce... separation is a separation, maybe after a few months, a year or however long it needs to take to give this marriage a chance? Divorce is divorce, marked the end of a marriage, mentally and legally. That for me, means no trying, no negotiation, no deal anymore. 

Just curious, what was her 'conditions' to you? For her to 'fall in love' with someone else so deeply, she must have feel that there are some needs missing that you are not satisfying her and that the other guy might had.


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## hopefulhubby

Thank you for the advice. You are absolutely right - it does feel like my gut is turing.
Her conditions were that she came home for the kids and not for me. She said that she wants to continue being friends with OM but not sexually. So we are basically room mates. I probably never should have let her back under those conditions, but I thought there might be some hope if she can get counseling. She went to see OM the very next day and told me she does not want to do counseling - I then told her that she can never see him again even if we have to move to another city. She said she can't accept that and thats when I said I am not accepting her conditions and she would have to leave again, so she packed a bag and left.


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## cdbaker

Good for you. Remember it isn't about trying to control her or deliver ultimatums (I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if she tries to accuse you of those things), it is about you setting boundaries for YOU. You won't accept a wife who is willfully cheating on you. You won't allow yourself to be married to a person who feels that any contact with a former (or, despite what she may say, CURRENT) adulterous partner is acceptable. She is an adult and can do what she pleases, but you don't have to go along for the ride.

So what has happened since she left? And what steps have you taken? Feel free to share and seek advice for the small things as well as the large ones.


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## hopefulhubby

Thanks again - the support from this forum has been unbelievable.
Since she left I have been reading the materials and links people have sent and in my own mind beginning/trying to man up, saying angry things to myself like "why are you such a pusseey, why did you let her get away with it that long, why did you let her treat you like that, she is a f***ing wh***, why do you even want a person in your life that treats you like sh***, etc. etc."
I sent her the email cdbaker suggested (see earlier response) almost verbatim. She replied with one word: "Understood"
We have had no communication since. I have contacted 2 attorneys to set up an initial consult - but have not met with anyone yet. I finally confided in a close friend from work who went thru divorce last year - this is the first person I have told - not even my family have any idea. He referred me to a mediator who can help us reach agreement outside of the courts. I contacted the mediator and he told me he was a divorce layer for many years and now only does mediation and consulting and can work with both of us and come to an agreement allowing the the courts / judge stay out of our business. He said that if I file, then we will be inundated with court requirements and procedures and things will basically be out of our control, but in the control of the courts. He said he would send a letter to us describing his services and if she agrees, we can have set up an initial meeting with him.


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## cdbaker

Wow, good for you in working on everything you can. Really though, don't beat yourself up intentionally like that. Women and society beat it into us guys that we should all be beta males, and it is confusing when the reality is that women don't actually want that at all. You did the things you did because you love her and didn't realize the harm it was doing.

As far as the legal stuff... yes a mediator can be very helpful and can make things a lot easier if you both end up traveling down the divorce path. With that said, there are protections that some with the courts as well that you should be aware of too, so make sure you consult with the attorneys before you agree to anything. Also, I would suggest not letting her know anything about your plans to meet with these people, as that could scare her right to the courthouse, letting her file first, which will usually put you at a legal disadvantage. (Even at best, you become the passenger instead of the driver) Also realize that the moment she thinks you are planning to divorce, or even taking steps to consider it, she could very likely go on the warpath. That's the natural reaction for a lot of people who find out that their security is crumbling and that their spouse is willing to move on. Even if she ultimately wants divorce and has done everything she can to piss all over the marriage, she'll still feel angry and betrayed.

The lawyers might suggest you file in order to protect yourself. That will likely put her on the warpath for a while but you'll have time to see how things shake out before actually having to decide on divorce. Or you might feel secure enough to not file and see how things play out a bit before you make your decision. (I myself did both in my marriage) Either way, I think you've made some great moves and hopefully she will wake up soon. If not, you'll be better off for letting her go and finding someone worthwhile.


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## Keepin-my-head-up

Stay on your path.
She chose when she left.
There was no doubt when she packed up and walked out knowing her family was on the line.
The flaw is in her not you.
its not that this other man is any better, its that she is so screwed up she cannot see your qualities and what makes you a great person.

So grieve the loss but know that the person you grieve for was never really the person you had in your mind all along.
It was a person who could fool you for awhile but not anymore!

Stay strong my brutha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wtf2012

hopefulhubby said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> This is my first post. It is amazing to see all the caring people in these forums. Thanks in advance for anything that may come back from this post.
> 
> I came to this forum hoping to get some advice on how to save my marriage. I am desperate for some hope, even the smallest chance, but after reading all the advice in all these forums, I think it may be totally hopeless and I need to face the painful reality. Maybe my post is now to seek advice in helping me through divorce rather than how to save my marriage but if there is any hope at all - no matter how small, please let me know.
> 
> We started having problems in Nov last year (end of 2013). Our entire marriage (and lives) collapsed in less than 2 months. We had close to the perfect marriage for 18 years. We have been together for 25 years. We have had our ups and downs like everyone, but never anything serious - not even close. We loved each other dearly. We have never once even had a really serious fight in all those years. We have 2 beautiful children (boy 12 and girl 14) and so many amazing memories. I have thousands of hours of happy home videos with memories, birthdays, Christmas and our home was always filled with friends and joy. Her scrapbooks alone tell a total fairy tale story of our happy lives.
> 
> We are financially very comfortable. I make 150k and she has her own small on-line business and makes about 50k to 70k varying from year to year - almost all of her money is leisure money as I take care of 100% of all expenses. We have no debt.
> 
> We became really close in the last few years since the kids have grown up a bit. We have travelled and had date night every week and spent a lot more time together. In fact, we have never been closer and totally in love. Our friends and family constantly comment on how devoted I am to her and the kids and how I have spoilt them. I love her (and our children) more than life itself and I would do anything for them.
> 
> So what on earth happened?
> 
> The short version is she has fallen deeply in love with someone else.
> 
> This is not a mid-life crisis or anything like that. This is not because of a lack of attention - she gets a lot of romance and attention from me. She was pampered by me almost daily. I give her plenty of physical attention, touch, and intimacy. Gosh, we held hands in public and private after 25 years together. I also spoil her materially with cars, clothes, money, overseas trips, gifts, etc. She gets anything she wants and more. She deserved it all. She was an amazing wife, mother, lover and friend. I was so happy with her, I actually began writing a book called “the art of happiness” about our amazing life and love. How ironic.
> 
> We had a big circle of friends and we have Friday night socials and dinner parties with all our friends, we camped and traveled and had loads of fun. One couple that was part of our friendship circle became really good friends. We camped any BBQ’ed with them often and had lots of great times together. They have kids (a little older than ours) but even our kids got along great.
> 
> Little did we know, but he was a predator. He is a good looking guy and he goes after woman. He went after my wife and she completely fell for him in the worst way imaginable. They were only seeing each other for a few weeks until I found out in Nov last year, but by then it was too late. The butterflies were intoxicating and she had fallen madly in love with him.
> 
> When I found out, I was quite upset. I asked him to meet my wife and me at a local sports bar and I told him to stay away from her. He point blank told me “No way” - right to my face in front of her. I could not believe it. We ended up having a shouting match at the sports bar causing a bit of a scene and had to leave rather quickly.
> 
> We drove home and we had a big argument (the first of so many). I asked her to please stay away from him forever. We were at a restaurant the next day and she told me she can’t stop seeing him. These words were such a shock to me that I suffered a massive panic attack. I have never had my body convulse completely out of my control and I had no idea what was happening to me. (I now know what it must be like for people that suffer seizures or fits). I was hyperventilating, causing a bit of a scene in the restaurant, so I ran into the bathroom to try and control myself, but it got worse, so I dashed out to the car and began convulsing out of control for about 30 minutes. It was a horrible experience. I could not talk and was folding in half gasping for air for about 20 minutes. When I finally came to, she told me I am just upset about work. What? It was at this point that I realized that he has complete power over her. She could not even have sympathy for what had just happened to me. It dawned on me that she is completely in love with him. I wept uncontrollably for many hours.
> 
> I was in a daze for a day or two and had some suicidal thoughts. I was in a situation over which I had zero control. It was the worst feeling in the world. What made it hard was that we had not done anything or had any problems, this just came out of nowhere.
> 
> He has incredible power over her and unless you see it, it is almost impossible to believe. He tells her what to do and completely controls her. When she sees him she melts and begins to cry.
> 
> Of course when his wife found out about them, she left him and shortly after filed for divorce. Their divorce will be final in a few weeks.
> 
> So I have been trying to work with my wife for months to try and sort this out. We have tried everything you can imagine - therapy, arguing, debating, pleading, begging. She just has no control over the situation. She lies and sneaks around and does the most unbelievable things just to be with him. She just can't help herself. She is in a really strange state of mind, almost like a compulsive drug addict. Her only defense is to say she had no choice but to find happiness with someone else because I have many faults. Its completely bizarre. (Even though I do have many faults).
> 
> As you can imagine, it has been killing me to see her like this. I will try not to speak of what it has done to me over the months. Suffice it to say that the panic attack I described earlier is merely the tip of the iceberg. After months and months of ill treatment and quite frankly pure cruelty towards me, I asked her to please stop or she will have to leave since it is destroying her and starting to have quite a bad impact on our children. (It had long ago destroyed me and our marriage) but I could not bear to to see her continue on such a destructive path. We are now the gossip topic for our entire friendship circle and we no longer have social events or BBQs. We are no longer invited to camping trips. We have basically been rejected by everyone. We have lost all our friends. Our best and closest friends came to tell me that my wife is embarrassing herself because every time “he” comes over, she quickly makes an excuse and they sneak out together. This was the last conversation I had with my once best friend nearly 6 months ago. By now, we have lost every single one of our friends - this is not an exaggeration - we do not have one single friend. I have over 300 contacts in my phone and I have not had a single text message or phone call from anyone in months. We have not been to a BBQ or dinner or even a social visit for many months and no one has come over or even called. (Hardships reveals your true friends - sadly, to our astonishing discovery we had no “true” friends. We were always each others best and closest friends).
> 
> About 3 weeks ago, she left home. She came back from a trip to NY and she was being particularly mean to me with criticism and when I asked her why she was being so cruel, she told me she no longer cares for me. The next morning, she said she was going out to see her “friend”. I told her that if she continues with this behavior, she can no longer stay at home and she will have to leave. That was very hard for me, knowing the state she is in, but perhaps some tough love would help her come to her senses. Of course this backfired and she went running straight to him. I asked her why she is not taking the time apart to reflect on what our situation has come to. She says that since I "kicked her out", she has the right to now be with him openly.
> 
> But unfortunately, he is not interested in looking after her - even though he has a huge house all to himself since his wife left. So my wife had to stay with one of her girl-friends. In fact, her lover actually has another girlfriend and so he just wants to mess around with my wife on the side, which she is happy to take as long as she can just be with him. I know this seems impossible, like I am making this up. (I wish that were true). Like I mentioned before, unless you see the complete power he has over her, you won’t believe it. No amount of reasoning, pleading or therapy can get her to come to her senses. She is powerless. She is in a free fall and is throwing her marriage away. She has hardly any money and no place to live, but she just wants to be available for him when he feels like her. It is a truly tragic situation.
> 
> 
> After 3 weeks of seeing her on this destructive path, I asked her to come back home. I wrote an email to him asking him to break off with her for the sake of our children. A week later she came back and gave me a long list of conditions for her return. It's basically all an act for our kids. She told me that she is still seeing him. She is being particularly hurtful since she has been back (4 days) she has gone off to see him twice, snubbing me in conversations and making sure we do not touch at all, even trying to avoid brushing against me. I asked her if we could go to couples therapy - she said emphatically "No!". She has had some counseling, but she dismisses the session quickly and does not want to go back as she does not want them to tell her she is doing anything wrong - she knows it, but can't help herself. So, sadly, we have not had any couples counseling.
> 
> On Sat, she made up all sorts of reasons about us going to a parade for work reasons. It sounded like fun, so we went as a family, but it was so she could see him as she knew he would be there. I only realized afterwards. We saw him with his girlfriend and my wife cried when she saw them together. She truly longs for him and loves him so much. It's like she is under a spell.
> 
> I too have been to therapy to try and cope - I have seen several therapists in fact and each one of them say the same thing: “What are you still doing there?” I bet some of you might be wondering the same thing. (I sometimes do - but like I told you earlier, I love her more than life itself). I bet you are in total disbelief about this and think this cannot be true. Believe me, I have spared you from much ugliness, but sadly, this is not a bad dream, this has happened and is happening.
> 
> I am trying not to blame her. I guess this could happen to anyone. I wish she could somehow break the bond that is trapping her. I know she is in a lot of pain and turmoil, especially since he does not want her (except on the side). She believes this is the only thing that can make her happy. Her feelings are all messed up. She is not coping too well.
> 
> So now what. I will be honest, I don't know what to do. I don't even really know how to cope. I have not slept in months. The long debates and discussions have stopped. The days and nights are long, quiet and very lonely. Therapy has not helped me at all. Now that she is back, its like living with a roommate who despises you does not want to talk to you. It has been extremely hard to call my parents each week and pretend like everything is ok. My best friend from high school and his wife and his family came to visit (passing through town) while she was away and I was dying to to tell someone, anyone, just to talk about - but I did not say a thing. I told them we got the of their visit dates wrong and that my wife was visiting with a friend. They left and I never said a word. So no-one knows anything - until now. Now you all know.
> 
> In this forum I have read some advice to others along the lines of: "Stop begging - its unattractive" - I wish I had tried that, I have stopped pleading with her now, but I guess it's too late.
> 
> So now what? How do I spare my children from pain? Is it better for me to just move to another state and get away from it all? She can have everything. I am at my end - I can't sleep or function. Any advice will be most welcome. Thanks in advance.


What's weird to me is that as crazy as she is for him, you are for her. Both of you are letting another person totally use you and treat you like crap. As much as you think she is crazy right now for how she is acting, people are looking at you thinking you are crazy for letting her behave this way to you. 

You were doing so much better when you kicked her out. If you read enough of these stories you will know nothing snaps affair fog like filing for divorce and no contact. But why do you want to save this? 

I get that you put her on a pedestal and your life was awesome. You now have to learn the extremely difficult lesson that the person you married no longer exists. The person who looks, sounds, and smells like you wife is a stranger. She doesn't love you. She did and it was awesome. Take the memories, but stop the pain. You really need to cauterize this wound.


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## tulsy

Ya, no more begging her to love you....you just come off pathetic, and it is the most unattractive quality for any man...she has lost all respect for you, which is why she treats you like chit and has no feelings for you anymore. The reason she is attracted to the other guy is because the way he acts...like how he won't take chit and acted alpha in your face when you confronted him...you cried instead, so you came off incredibly weak and pitiful. 

Just chalk it up to how much you loved her, that's what drove you to be a puzzy for a while....and now move on.

Definitely divorce, 180, start working out like mad, lift weights and cardio, eat incredibly healthy foods, get good hobbies, join a hot yoga class (lots of women there, and a great place to both workout and relax in tranquility), start riding your bike again, etc.

It's done...she ended it and you have moved on...keep telling yourself that. You tried your best, but she's shown you the worst part of herself...that part she hid from you forever. You had a very big moment of weakness, but so what...it was traumatic! 

You just have to move forward from here man. No turning back, no contact, complete 180.


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## Chaparral

What kind of business is the posom in?

Write nothing but the truth but put him on cheaterville.com. Hopefully you can include a picture of him. 

I would also get a pi to do a background check on him. See if you can get a RO against him for your kids. 

Download the two books linked to below asap.


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## lifeistooshort

There is ZERO hope as long as you keep acting like a pathetic doormat. Geez, she can screw this guy right under your nose and still stay in the house with you? Are you kidding me? So she can screw him as long as she wants and still come back to you? What dirtbag wouldn't take a deal like that? Get rid of her, if you're in any kind of decent physical shape you'll have great women all over you. Once this scumbag gets tired of her it'll be her that has limited options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 6301

There should be a law that allows a man or woman to beat the hell out of the OM or OW. Call it justifiable ass whipping.


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## cdbaker

Has their been any update on this Hopefulhubby?


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## hopefulhubby

Hi cdbaker - thanks for checking in. There have been no major updates. I have not spoken with my wife since asking her to respect my boundaries (other than some email communication about kids school). Since I have no idea what she is thinking, I have started to get my life in order. I have taking lots of advice about taking care of myself, riding my bike and spending loads of time with my kids, etc. I have been doing lots of reading - especially about the consequences of about being a nice guy. Next time I hear from her I can get sense of what she is thinking - but until then, I am focusing on myself. Thanks again for the support. I will keep this forum posted if anything develops and hopefully get some more good advice - you guys have all been really helpful. Thanks.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi Guys - I really need advice. Wife dropped kids of a few minutes ago and asked me if I want to go see a counselor with her on Fri. I was considering filing right away - should I wait. Up until she stopped by, I was ready to file and move on - but now I am a little rattled. I asked her what she is thinking and she said she does not know. I asked her if she has been seeing OM and she said no - but I am not sure I believe her.

I asked her if she wants to talk - she said it's no use as we keep going in circles. I asked what she wants to accomplish with the counselor - and she said she said she went to see counselor on Fri she is supposed to make a list of pros and cons and do a few things - one of them is to go to go see a counselor together. I said she needs to tell me what she is thinking as I am not changing my position at all. She said "she does not know" - but its up to me if I want to go with her. What should I do?


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## cdbaker

If you ask me, agreeing to go with her is not a sign of weakness or a sign that you are willing to compromise on the key positions involved. I'd suggest that you agree to go, but remind her that your position hasn't changed as it relates to her behavior and it will not change. If the counselor is even remotely good at his/her job, he or she will fully support that as well. So I don't think you have anything to lose. Really whether she is seeing the OM or not right now, you don't have to believe her.

And really, even if she has decided to stop reaching out to the OM, the real issue going forward would be whether she could resist his reaching out to her, which are two entirely different things. The influence he has had over her, the feelings he created within her, those memories don't just disappear. And since most people suddenly find people more desirable once they realize they can't have them, it's very likely that he will try to reach out to her at some point in the future, like when he tires of this other woman he's seeing.

But either way, I'd tell her you'll go with her, in as emotionless way as possible. The message being that you're willing to hear her out is all. Don't ask her to tell you what she wants to accomplish or why she is wanting to go now. That too is a show of weakness and makes you sound overly hopeful. Besides, she won't be able to answer you anyway if she feels that she needs a 3rd party professional there to help facilitate the discussion. Just restate that your position is firm, but if she has something to say, you're willing to listen.

(It sounds like she's being a little more respectful and less demanding here. Remember that would be a natural consequence of your new attitude towards her and behavior, and a good thing.)


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## cdbaker

If you can, see if you can get her to tell you that she would like for you to go. Re-reading your post again, I don't like the last part of her saying something like, "It's up to you if you want to go or not." as that sounds very dominant to me, as if she's baiting the hook and doesn't care if you decide to take it or not. I think what needs to happen is that she needs to clearly state that she would like for you to go with her to this appointment. So another way of responding might be something like:

"Look I'm not opposed to attending a counseling appointment with you, but my positions here aren't going to change."

Her response would have to be something like, "I understand, but..." or "Well, nonetheless...", etc. followed by a request. I really think it'd be best if she is directly asking you to attend with her, not just tossing it out there as an option and saying you can take it or leave it.


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## hopefulhubby

Thanks cdbaker - you certainly provide good advice. I will send her an email stating that and let you know what she says.
I have an appt. with an attorney this week - Do you think I should file anyway before the counseling session on Fri - will it reinforce my stance or do you think it will drive a nail in the coffin on her side for attempting any change?


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## Chaparral

I think you should play along. If she does an about face you have something to work with. If not, go ahead and file.

If money is no issue you could go ahead and file. It depends on what effect you think it would have. Hopefully , the fog is finally lifting. 

Are you sure you could handle taking her back?

Have you read mmslp? Her om understands the book perfectly.

Have you put him on cheaterville.com?


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## cdbaker

I would say keep your appointment, have the lawyer begin drawing up paperwork if he/she has everything from you that is needed, (and as long as you can afford to waste the money it costs him/her to do that if it comes to not needing it) but don't actually file the paperwork until after this latest... whatever it is that your wife is trying to do with the counselor appt., has played itself out. That leaves you ready to move forward if you reach that point and can do so with confidence if she remains uncommitted.


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## hopefulhubby

Thanks guys for the advice. It confirms in my mind what I was thinking was the right move. Money is not an issue. I will meet with the attny this week and get things ready. The appointment with counselor is on Friday afternoon - I will let you know what happens. 
I sent her a one line email "M - I am not opposed to attending a counseling appointment with you, but my positions aren't going to change as it relates to your behavior." She has not replied.
Chaparrel - thanks for your input. I am not sure I am ready to take her back - I just started reading mmslp - (it arrived yesterday from amazon) I have finished reading no more mr. nice guy. I have not put him on cheaterville. I am pretty solid when by myself, but I am all thumbs when she is around - I really need to get my game face on for Friday - hopefully I will have read most of mmslp by then. 
Thanks again for the support - you guys have been really helpful.


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## cdbaker

Just curious, has there been any response from her yet?


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## hopefulhubby

Hey cdbaker - thanks for checking in. I have had no no direct response, but I had to give her a quick call while driving last night to discuss pickup with the kids and at the end of the call, I said: "so do you still want me to come Friday?" and she said "yes - its at 3pm". So my read is she does want me to go, but is not reaching out. 
We usually communicate via email about the kids but the reason for the call was because she had made arrangements with the kids and one of their friends without informing me. During the call, I calmly told her not to make arrangements again with the kids or their friends without clearing plans with me first, she said "ok, sorry" - I have never heard her say that in a respectful way - I don't want to read too much into that - but it certainly seemed different.

p.s. I have been reading mmsp - it makes me feel like a total schmuck  Each time in the book he warns that things are serious i.e. it may be too late, then it feels like he is talking about me. The only difference for me is the reason why this happened - I am only one third thru the book but he talks about guys dropping a sex rank or letting themselves go etc. In my case, I don't think I gave her a real reason to cheat - I'm in great shape and have lots of Alpha and Beta qualities (I need a lot more - thats true) but in general I am reasonably balanced (except of course the way I reacted to her this whole thing - thats when I crumbled into a total wimp - perhaps too late - but I am taking a stand now!). Our sex life was great - everything was great - it's true the OM is total alpha and I can understand she was so attracted to him - but I still feel like she had no real reason to go the way she went - at some point you can't out-alpha everyone on the planet - surely there needs some trust that your partner will have some integrity. (Of course I am not perfect, but maybe I am just feeling so betrayed that I can't see if I really had any real part in deserving any of this - I am definitely not ready to take her back - maybe never). No matter how strong dopamine is - surely any woman with an ounce of integrity should be able to resist - or is every woman going to cheat under the influence of dopamine and we are simply powerless against it - he certainly did not force her - whats the alternative - lock your woman up so she will never run into some alpha out in the world?

I understand you get bored with your partner after so many years and others start looking appealing - no matter how well you take care of yourself - thats normal and for me too - I too look at out other woman - but I never cheated. I don't like this book - it has great information and is certainly very helpful, but if that's really the way woman are, then why do we show we them even an ounce of respect - are they all simply f*** who***r**e**s that will open their legs to any alpha that come along.

I have no idea whats going to happen on Friday or what I should say in the session. I do want to play it cool and be steady - like when I am alone - but the truth is I get rattled when she is around and I become that total wimp again.
Thanks again for the support - any advice would be most welcome.


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## JLinJapan

Wow.. Im speechless after reading your post. I can't believe that one person (that loser guy she loves) can completely ruin a happy home.. I'm also so angry that she can not see you or remember what you two had. She is and became a different person.. 

There will always be predators.. That guy is wrong to date your wife but she is even more wrong. She should not have created a situation like that in the first place. 

You tried enough and suffered enough. She lost her chances. I am truly sorry for what you are going through.


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## cdbaker

Well I think we can give most women more credit than that. Remember for them they value things like security, reliability, stability, etc. Honestly I think guys like the OM only have a chance when a married woman has gone a long stretch of time not feeling loved/valued by her husband. I think it takes a lot for most women to walk away from their place of security (assuming they have security in their existing relationship) to jump ship for an alpha fling.

I think you are thinking in the right direction though. Regardless of what happens with your wife, you should be looking back and trying to find areas where you maybe let her down or didn't fulfill your responsibilities the way you should have. Certainly this mess isn't all your fault, but it is wise to assume that you had a share in it, and even more wise to spend time determining what those things were that you messed up. Think back to way before the affair to all the things she complained about or was unhappy about. Think about the books you've read, what areas could you have done things differently?

You don't have to necessarily answer me here, lol. Just stuff to think about, whether for your wife if there is a reconciliation, or your future spouse. Stay firm in the counseling session, but feel free to be honest about how you feel.

Also, yes I think the "ok, sorry" that you got from her is awesome. I think it's a small sign of respect. That she did something wrong (even though it wasn't a big deal), realizes she did, but most importantly she now respects you enough to show that you are worth apologizing to. If she didn't care or respect you at all, you might have gotten an excuse or a "whatever" or something like that. It's a small thing, but good!


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## hopefulhubby

Hey cdbaker - I agree with you and I am not claiming innocence in any of this, but but there is no doubt she was loved by me and had all the security in the world. I completely took care of her emotional needs, as well as physical and material needs. My real fault was not standing up in the beginning - but crying like a baby and begging her to stop seeing him.
She did not go looking for a fling - she had no reason - we were friends with OM and his family - very good friends in fact. We got comfortable with them over time as our friendship grew - little did I know about his pursuits on my wife (so there is my first lesson - I was way too trusting). I don't think she was planning to walk away from her place of security to jump ship for a fling. As the friendship grew, so must have their affections and they crossed the line at some point - who knows, but the emotional bond with him was set - from then on she just became another person - she began to slowly despise me - possibly for begging her to stop - I certainly looked weak and pathetic. I finally got the dreaded ILYBANILWY speech.
If I look back - here is what I should have done differently. When I found out and confronted him in the bar, when he gave me attitude, I should have smashed his face in right there - but I reacted badly - I was in such shock and so hurt - I guess I was in the fog (not her as I assumed).
We kept talking about it for months and that was my next mistake - which probably made me look even more pathetic - i.e. not fighting like a man for my marriage, but appealing to her senses - its was like I was talking to a 13 year old saying she cant have sex with OM and she kept saying I am ruining her life - I should have stopped talking and acted back then - but I just kept begging and trying to get her to see reality. Then the lies and sneaking around began. As the months drew on, it just got worse to a point where she could not stand me any more and asked for the open marriage thing - thats when I threw my toys and kicked her out and finally started taking action. So all in all for almost 20 years up to the affair, 9 months ago - there really was no compelling reason - she probably did not think we would end up here.
At this point - she is madly in love (even though I think he may have dumped her by now). I am guessing that she might be weighing up her security options, the kids and our history, she might want to come back to a room-mate type of deal for the kids only, but she has made it clear that she has no feelings left for me.
Yes - there are many other changes I can make to improve - I certainly have my faults, but anyone that knows can attest that I was the best husband who gave her everything - except enough dopamine it would seem. I will keep thinking back to before the affair and try and figure out what she complained about - but truth is nothing jumps out. In fact - I would almost guess that since I gave her everything and loved her so completely, I honestly believe she may have thought I would let her have this - I know that sounds bizzare - but all those nights of her telling me "Dont you want me to be happy. Dont you care about my feelings. Dont you care that this is just on the side and it wont affect us - we can still have it all and be happy. Dont you see how this makes me in a good mood and then I can be a good wife to you yada yada yada." I dont know why I even tried to reason with those arguments as if I could just get her to see how crazy she was - it was all pointless trying to talk sense to her. When I told her I would not do that to her, she said that it would not affect her and maybe I should get a girlfriend on the side, then we could both have a side thing. No amount of sensible reasoning or talk help anything - she could rationalize her way out of anything just so she could be with him.


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## Chaparral

Put him on cheareville.com. The whole point is to piss him off at you AND your wife. You send him a link. You can escalate from there by sending others, I.e. his work , his parents etc. , the link if he does not cut contact with your wife.

Surely he won't want everyone to know what he does.

Be sure to state the cheaterville post as accurately as possible, to avoid the possibility of legal action. If what you post is what you believe you are fine.


The best part of cheaterville is how google will point it out anytime his name is googled. Let him know that too. Hopefully you can get a picture of him for the post.


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## SurpriseMyself

Reading your post, I keep thinking she's nearly gone insane. And you've lost so much so quickly, I'm sorry for you. It's hard to look at it this way, but you did have a life many would envy. Hold on to those memories and accept that time of your life has come to an end.

The folks on here are right, at least in my view. Begging, writing letters, etc., won't change things. I think she's gone off the deep end and there may be no way to pull her back.


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## cdbaker

Definitely right about a cheater's ability to find ways to rationalize anything they want to do, to themselves anyway.

I'll share another portion of my story that might apply here.

With my wife's 3rd OM, the first one to really become an ongoing "affair", she really fell hard for the guy. Unfortunately she met him when they found one of our old long since abandoned profiles on a swinger site and contacted us because we lived nearby. I was a moron and, despite having long since decided that swinging was a BAD idea, started communicating with him and his wife, then shared this with my wife. They started talking to her more and my wife wanted to hang out with them sometime, especially when we found out we had kids in the same school. We did, I didn't like their vibe at all, but she wanted to be friends with his wife. He started reaching out to her on his own after I made it clear that swinging wouldn't be happening, and then the mess started.

The affair started in late July, and I caught them about two months later when she came home drunk one night from being out with a friend (I had to go pick her up at the bar). She was mean as hell to me while doing so, and I knew that something was wrong with her/us during the prior two months and couldn't figure out why but desperately was trying to make her happy. After her horrible attitude towards me that night, I decided to check her cell phone which she had been coveting for weeks. She hadn't had a chance to delete her texts that day, and discovered that they were professing love for each other and had had sex in her car that very afternoon in a grocery store parking lot and were discussing running away together.

I let her sleep off the alcohol and confronted her in the morning. For the next week she apparently tried to convince him to leave his wife and run away with her, but couldn't. He of course was full of ****. Getting his jollies off seducing other men's wives on the side, enjoying the fog of new fun with new women and how wrong it was, and knowing that his wife would forgive him since he allowed her to sleep with other men if she wanted to as well. She eventually agreed to come home and work on the marriage, but it was clear her heart wasn't in it.

Before returning home she bought a pre-paid phone so that she could stay in contact with the OM without my ability to keep an eye on the bill. It was only a few weeks later that his wife contacted me to tell me she'd discovered his pre-paid phone with their texts on it and thought I should know. (I had decided not to inform her about the affair initially, figuring they had 3 young kids together and i didn't want to be involved in splitting them up) So she was busted again. She spent the day frantically trying to convince him to again run away with her, to leave his wife, etc., just as he had promised her repeatedly that he would do. When he didn't, she returned to me in tears, begging me to take her back and smashed her pre-paid phone with a baseball bat right in front of me.

I took her back. She went to counseling, but it was killing her inside. She was so in love with him, that she had a friend come and take her car from her every day so that she wouldn't drive off to find him. She cried for days, mostly ANGRY at him for having deceived her and not followed through on his promises. That lasted for about a week, then she got another pre-paid phone. A few weeks later, she convinced our marriage therapist that she needed time apart from me to figure herself out. He had us to a separation plan, which would last 30 days to start, swapping out who stayed at home every other week, and included a signed promise that she would not involve herself with any other man during that time, the OM specifically. We both signed, then she went over to his house and ****ed him again, just as she had been for weeks.

Ultimately it took about another month for her to realize that he was an ******* and wouldn't follow through on anything. I found out about the renewed affair about a week into the separation, but really couldn't do anything about it. We ended the separation and were together again, back in counseling. She still grieved over him, and resented me for my past behaviors, the swinging stuff, and of course now I was the living embodiment of why she was unhappy, because I wasn't him. It only took about three weeks before she met a new guy, the old man pedophile I have already described, and started that affair which would last several years.

My point is that my marriage was going to heck for at least two years before getting involved with other men. The problems were mostly related to my bad behaviors and views, not valuing/loving her properly. (I did love her, completely, and I took care of all of her needs, provided for her, never yelled or used unkind names/insults, never hit/pushed/grabbed her, etc.) But I left her feeling unloved for a variety of reasons that caused her to be incredibly vulnerable to any man who would say the kindest of words to her. Those words would be like a glass of water in the desert, she was so desperate for love/affection/attention.

So it wasn't this particular guy that had a magic touch that managed to somehow reel in an otherwise happily married woman. Nor was it the pedophile afterwards, or the two other guys who got her into a few "one night stand" scenarios prior. It didn't matter who they were, they had her at, "Hey, you look amazing." So again my thought is that if your wife/marriage is anything like mine, I wouldn't be surprised if your wife wasn't as happy as you think she was and that maybe this guy isn't as good as he appears. That maybe he just happened to take advantage of a really perfectly ripened opportunity that came his way with your wife. Not saying she sought it out, as I don't believe my wife did either, but that maybe she was vulnerable to him.


I'm not sure if any of that makes any sense, and you have already said that you'll spend some time trying to think of where things went wrong before the affair. It might even be worth asking her again sometime, though it might be tough to get a fair answer now that the fog has reprogrammed her memories of the past a bit.


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## MEM2020

Hopeful,
Showing love while being publicly emasculated is EXACTLY the same weak, pathetic, needy behavior that your wife exhibits towards her lover. 

Being loud, angry, aggressive with her is just a different way of showing love. 

The ONLY way to maximize your chance of regaining your OWN sanity is to:
- kick her out of the house (get a fuvking lawyer immediately)
- prevent her from communicating with you about a anything other than kids/custody and schedules 
- REFUSE to engage with her emotionally about anything until she ends the affair and commits to 100 percent transparency.
- In the meantime, refuse to answer any questions she has about where you are, who you are with and what you are doing. 

You are a textbook example of being a cheating spouses 'Plan B', and she will DEFIANTLY chase lovers and butterflies open ended in you let her because she knows you are waiting at home praying for scraps. 

BTW: Her lover is high alpha - and you are about as close to zero alpha as you can be. 

Your wife's ability to control you is a HUGE turn off. 
Just as her inability to control her lover is a HUGE turn on. 






hopefulhubby said:


> Thank you for the candid advice. I am taking action. No more mr. nice guy. Thanks for reminding me I am not a ***** - even though I have been acting like one. This lion is about to roar!


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## MEM2020

Hopeful,
No - you can't 'out alpha' every man on the planet and obviously you know that. 

And while I know you have read enough of MMSL to believe that you can add up a bunch of 'alpha traits' and give your 'per affair' self a good score, you don't really understand what 'alpha' means yet. 

Alpha is power. No more, no less. It is totally uncorrelated to other traits (kind, cruel, sane, insane). Churchill - Hitler. Bill Gates, Al Capone. 

For some men, they ARE alpha at work but not at home. 

In this type situation YOUR inability to:
- control your emotions 
- control your outward expression of destructive/weak emotions 

Has resulted in:
- an ever more aggressive wife
- your temporary isolation from a large social network who could help you (because they are tired of you whining, complaining and enabling an out of control wife)

My wife is more alpha AND has a higher risk tolerance than I do so I grasp the concept of feeling afraid of 'intense conflict' with your spouse. 

But to date, I have managed my fear enough to ruthlessly focus on the outcome I want. I do the 'textbook' thing and accept that I am maximizing the odds of a positive outcome. So far - my W has consistently responded the way the 'textbook' says she will. 

You have proven you can't 'nice' her out of this 5150 state. You have tried. Time to do a 180. 


QUOTE=hopefulhubby;3940418]Hey cdbaker - thanks for checking in. I have had no no direct response, but I had to give her a quick call while driving last night to discuss pickup with the kids and at the end of the call, I said: "so do you still want me to come Friday?" and she said "yes - its at 3pm". So my read is she does want me to go, but is not reaching out. 
We usually communicate via email about the kids but the reason for the call was because she had made arrangements with the kids and one of their friends without informing me. During the call, I calmly told her not to make arrangements again with the kids or their friends without clearing plans with me first, she said "ok, sorry" - I have never heard her say that in a respectful way - I don't want to read too much into that - but it certainly seemed different.

p.s. I have been reading mmsp - it makes me feel like a total schmuck  Each time in the book he warns that things are serious i.e. it may be too late, then it feels like he is talking about me. The only difference for me is the reason why this happened - I am only one third thru the book but he talks about guys dropping a sex rank or letting themselves go etc. In my case, I don't think I gave her a real reason to cheat - I'm in great shape and have lots of Alpha and Beta qualities (I need a lot more - thats true) but in general I am reasonably balanced (except of course the way I reacted to her this whole thing - thats when I crumbled into a total wimp - perhaps too late - but I am taking a stand now!). Our sex life was great - everything was great - it's true the OM is total alpha and I can understand she was so attracted to him - but I still feel like she had no real reason to go the way she went - at some point you can't out-alpha everyone on the planet - surely there needs some trust that your partner will have some integrity. (Of course I am not perfect, but maybe I am just feeling so betrayed that I can't see if I really had any real part in deserving any of this - I am definitely not ready to take her back - maybe never). No matter how strong dopamine is - surely any woman with an ounce of integrity should be able to resist - or is every woman going to cheat under the influence of dopamine and we are simply powerless against it - he certainly did not force her - whats the alternative - lock your woman up so she will never run into some alpha out in the world?

I understand you get bored with your partner after so many years and others start looking appealing - no matter how well you take care of yourself - thats normal and for me too - I too look at out other woman - but I never cheated. I don't like this book - it has great information and is certainly very helpful, but if that's really the way woman are, then why do we show we them even an ounce of respect - are they all simply f*** who***r**e**s that will open their legs to any alpha that come along.

I have no idea whats going to happen on Friday or what I should say in the session. I do want to play it cool and be steady - like when I am alone - but the truth is I get rattled when she is around and I become that total wimp again.
Thanks again for the support - any advice would be most welcome.[/QUOTE]


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## hopefulhubby

Hi guys - Thanks again for being so candid. You guys are right (as always). I have no clue about alpha or anything. I am 44 years old and have been a terrible "nice guy" my whole life. How can I expect to know anything after reading a few books and some online forums in just a few weeks. I have so much to learn about life and relationships.

I am trying to follow text book now. I am doing 180. She remains kicked her out of the house. I have done exposure (following instructions to the letter - this has an amazing side effect of seeing who your true friends are). 

I know you are all sick of me - but one final question if I may:
The 180 step about "All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)." Does this include filing? My paperwork with the lawyer is filled out and ready to go - one quick email from me and it's done and she will be notified within 24 hrs. My state (Colorado) has a 91 day cooling off period after filing. Do I wait for the dust to settle from the exposure - or do I do it while the storm is raging around here - (believe me the storm is currently raging around her - she has sent me some nasty notes, which I am just 180 ignoring).

I can't even trust my own thoughts about what possible future outcome I would want - I don't even know or even care at this point - I just want to follow the book as anything I have tried has failed (as you all know).

Thanks again for putting up with me - you guys are all strangers to me, but you have shown more compassion and shared so much of your own personal stories and admonished me when necessary have given me more real advice and support than any friend or family member (even though I failed to follow much of the advice). I truly am indebted to this forum and all of you on this thread. Thanks again.


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## cdbaker

Hello again. No need to worry about asking more questions, that's what this forum is here for. (also, it's very beta to apologize for asking questions or to assume that we're all "sick of you." Lol.)

I see no one else has responded to this last one yet, and I wouldn't be surprised if it is due to the gravity of the question. I feel somewhat uncomfortable advising someone to "Yes, pull the trigger" or "No, do not pull the trigger" due to the seriousness of that answer. I think you have to make that one for yourself.

I was about to say that I am leaning towards going ahead and filing now, but I still am not sure about it. How did you friday appointment with her go? What have been your interactions with her since Thursday? (Are they all just raging angry texts? Are they spread out or all at one time?) What kinds of things is she angry about in particular?

Remember, you manning up and standing up for yourself will 100% mean that she cannot have her cake and eat it too anymore. He means she won't be able to use you anymore, won't be able to maintain you as plan B anymore for the sake of her sense of security. From her perspective, your shift in attitude towards her is a 100% negative thing for her. With that said, she also knows deep down that what she is doing is wrong, and she has absolutely no reasonable way to combat your new attitude. She can't go to her friends and family and rant about how you're being an ******* or anything, she can't logically make a case to you, nothing. Therefore the only natural response is anger and frustration. Like a child whose eaten a whole box of cookies and then gets her hand slapped away when reaching for the second box. It's not like she's starving and only more cookies will keep her alive, it's not like she was promised dessert and hasn't had any yet, there is no rational argument available, so being angry and IRRATIONAL is the only option left.

Usually the spouse will then resort to other formerly tried and true tactics. Maybe making new promises (usually lies) or crying, or asking for help, or committing to more MC, etc, hoping to crack you into submitting again. You can't give in to ANY of these moves while she is still freely violating your boundaries, or still feels free to do so. Remember those are tests that you need to pass!

Back to your question... If her raging is just the result of your new attitude towards her and her behavior, then it is possible that she'll get past it soon, or move on to the new tactics discussed above. If so, it might not be a good time to threaten her security even more with a divorce filing.

Otherwise, it's probably best to just file and force her to start making her decisions one way or the other. A divorce petition is going to anger her either way, so it might be a good idea to just get it over with while she's already angry. As you said, the divorce process will take some time. They probably wouldn't get your case on the docket for closer to four months after you file, which usually just becomes a hearing where the judge makes recommendations/orders further steps like mandated mediation, temporary child support/custody arrangements, independent testing if problem behaviors are brought into question (like drugs/alcohol/bad parenting/etc.) So the divorce wouldn't have to be finalized for another 5-6 months I'm guessing. It gives you both a lot of time to figure out what you want. Since you seem to know that you'd like her back if she can commit herself and you can stand up for yourself, then that means time for her to wake up and make a decision, while knowing that you are clearly very serious in your willingness to move on without her.

Also, it's worth noting, that in most states there are very real benefits to being the one who files first. If she is angry enough, she might be making plans to file ahead of you. So it might be a good idea to errr on the side of filing if you aren't sure?

Really though, how was the MC appointment and how has it been with her since?


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## hopefulhubby

Hey cdbaker - Thanks again for the reply - yes I know thats beta, but I realized it's gonna take me a few years to get to even 1% alpha - I am working on it 
So much has happened over the weekend since the counseling session - I will need to write a long reply - I will do so tonight - I am at work now and I need to switch off my emails for a few hours to try and focus - its been hard to stay focussed - but I really have to try and follow that damned 180 text book 
Chat Later.


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## cdbaker

It won't take you years to get to "1% Alpha". I think your goal should be 50% Alpha. Some beta is a good thing, you just can't let it get out of control.


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## Iver

Sorry to say this but you need to get tested for STD's. Let your wife know you are doing this as well. 

Also let her know if there was to be any reconciliation she'd need to give you her test results in writing. 

Your question re filing for divorce? The best way I can answer that is to ask you to imagine that it's 30 years down the road and one of your now adult children comes to you and tells you they are in the exact same situation you are in now. They ask you what you think they should do.

I think you would have no problem telling them to immediately file for divorce.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi guys - here is an update of the past weekend (although some of these details may make you ill and I am not proud). 
She dropped the kids after school at 1 on Friday - our session was scheduled for 3. As she pulled up, I said "you still want me to go today" and she said yes. I then said do you wanna have lunch or something beforehand - she politely said no. I said "ok - I will see u there". She drove off.
She pulled up in front of the counsellors office and we walked in together and sat in the lobby a few mins. I said what you been up to - she said work etc. She did not want to make conversation. After a minute or so of awkward silence, I then said - why are we doing this? This is stupid. Lets just put this all behind us and start over - clean slate - this is destroying us and the kids. She just said: "its not that easy". I replied - I know it will be hard and lots of healing will be required, but we can do it. The counselor then called us in. We went in and the counselor's opening question to me almost before I even sat down was "So you think this marriage is salvageable". I blurted out: "absolutely - anything is fixable".
Then the counselor asked me what needs to occur and I rambled off my usual position - "she just needs to break all contact with OM and find some healing and I know it will be hard, but yada yada yada...." My wife just sat there listening. (From the little I understand about alpha - I think she is total alpha - even more than the OM).
Then it was her turn to talk and as I sat there listening I could not believe what I was hearing. She rambled on again about her needs and what she wants in life and how I never really fulfilled her etc. etc. and then she said that she sees no road back and is planning on being with OM but she said she hasn't decided yet. I said, but what about his girlfriend and she said thats just temporary. I then said does he love you and she said that he has said he loves her. Then I thought either she has gone totally insane or they have been planning this all along. His divorce is final and and now its her turn to make her move. If this is true, I feel sorry for his girlfriend being a pawn in their game plan. 
I stayed calm through the entire session and never responded - I was totally bewildered. The session ended I just calmly got up and walked out. She called after me and said don't you want to discuss anything. I turned and said - its pointless, the counselor mediating was helpful but we just keep going in circles. She said - I still haven't decided anything. I just I walk off calmly and did not respond.
The rest of the next 2 days my mind was blank and I just had no idea what to do - I think I hit my rock bottom - I cried a lot.
On Sunday morning I hit this forum again and re-read your message about the text book and decided to do it all 180, exposure, etc.
I wrote 2 exposure letters following the template - one for family and one for friends. I got my email lists ready and face book friends all lined up to cut and paste - ready to do exposure before any interference.
I took my kids out of town for the night and we spent a night together at a hotel. I told them to leave all electronics at home so I had their full attention. When the time was right, I gently and carefully told them why mommy had left. (My son is 12 and daughter 14). I only said the most caring words about their mother. I told them we are trying to get her help and now the family, uncles aunts and grandparents and friends are now going to try and help her.
They took the news surprisingly well. I made an appt with a really good counselor for both kids.
After they fell asleep - I emailed family first and then any and all friends that knew us both or may have influence over either her or OM. 
I tried to sleep - but to no avail - it was a long night. The next morning she began calling and texting. "What have you done. Did you make a public announcement? Please tell me who you told I am getting messages from cousins etc. I ignored her calls and texts for a while and then I replied and told her I had to tell kids and family and all our old friends. I told her I did not include any of her or OM's customers or work acquaintances as I do not want to incur any financial trouble for anyone. I sent her the list of email addresses and told her to check my facebook friends list for our mutual friends that we know in real life. I told her I did nothing publicly - these were all private messages to individuals.
She sent a message to everyone on the email list I gave her and asked them not to contact her, saying this is a private matter.

The next day I got so many supporting emails and texts. Half of them saying we are praying for you guys and the other half: "you deserve better" - it was all day Monday Labor day - I spent the day with the kids and ignored all emails and texts till late Monday night and sent a few replies and thank yous.
My wife picks up kids from school and drops them off she texted today and asked if she could take them to McDonalds on her way home from school. I replied yes. (Interestingly, she has taken them there a few times on her way home from school before and has never texted to ask).
This afternoon I got an email from the counselor and asked if I and my wife could meet her before our sons session to go over some parenting issues. My wife had set this up.

We got there this evening and waited a few minutes and I was chatting with the kids, my wife stayed back a ways looked really sheepish and broken.

We went in and I told the counselor of the situation and then all hell broke loose. My wife began accusing, crying and spouting all sorts of nasties. She read my email to the counselor. It was all crazy. I reacted a few times against false accusations, but tried hard to stay calm. I think I did well by my standards, but I was not cool or in control the whole way. (I was impressed with the counselor for handling such a tense situation). A few times she during the spouts my wife blurted "I kept saying to him I have not made a decision yet, but now he can forget it."

It was hectic - we actually took the whole time slot and my poor son did not get to go and see the counselor. My kids were waiting in the car the whole time.

We came out and she hugged the kids goodbye. I came home and spent the rest of the evening just chatting and hanging with the kids.

I am about to email my attny. This is really hard guys. Wish me luck.


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## Chaparral

Its too early to make a big decision. You have really just ,bbegun to fight for your marriage. They always say that after exposure. It means nothing at this point. She will calm down. She is also on a roller coaster. Give it a few days, her little secret world hacks been destroyed.

You can file or not, the important thing is to man up and let her know she is not the only one to make a decision. You are in the drivers seat now, buckle up.


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## Chaparral

Its too early to make a big decision. You have really just ,bbegun to fight for your marriage. They always say that after exposure. It means nothing at this point. She will calm down. She is also on a roller coaster. Give it a few days, her little secret world hacks been destroyed.

You can file or not, the important thing is to man up and let her know she is not the only one to make a decision. You are in the drivers seat now, buckle up.


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## 3Xnocharm

Did she really think that you were going to just sit there and WAIT on her, while SHE decided between you and another man?? It amazes me that cheaters do that. Good for you for exposing her! Now go ahead and file for the divorce. You can always stop it at any point if the two of you decide to work on things. She has been slapped with reality, its time to deliver the knockout punch.


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## tom67

3Xnocharm said:


> Did she really think that you were going to just sit there and WAIT on her, while SHE decided between you and another man?? It amazes me that cheaters do that. Good for you for exposing her! Now go ahead and file for the divorce. You can always stop it at any point if the two of you decide to work on things. She has been slapped with reality, its time to deliver the knockout punch.


:iagree::lol:


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## tom67

If you can pay back the om through exposure have at it he ruined your marriage time for him to pay the piper.


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## Chaparral

Have you put the om on cheaterville yet?

Why can't you make him own what he has done?


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## karole

File for divorce now and have her served at work.


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## cdbaker

Not a whole lot of time to reply in depth but...

I think you did the right thing. And I think you should continue to try to avoid contact with her as much as possible, and definitely don't let her lure you into any form of conflict. Yes she reacted in a completely normal way. She really thought that saying, "I haven't decided yet" would keep you complacent long enough for her to complete the switch from you to him, make sure that she indeed could win him over from the girlfriend or anyone else, and have time to fully paint the picture that she wants everyone else to see of the situation.

You're exposing her and the OM completely threw a wrench into the whole thing. So now she is angry at being shamed in front of her friends and family, and is probably terrified that the OM will be put off by the whole thing as well as he is now labeled a cheater, a home wrecker, etc. She said "I TOLD HIM I hadn't decided yet but now he can forget it!" because that is her last chance to try to bring you back into complacency and do as she wants you to do. You can't buy into it. It might get even worse too.

Ok, I'll add more later, gotta go...


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## Iver

Until you exposed the affair your wife has been calling all the shots. You derailed her plans in a big way by doing that. 

Good for you. You did the right thing.

Now her private little fantasy is starting to look like as it really is - sleazy and pathetic.

File for divorce and have her served. This kind of frontal assault is the only thing that is going to give you a chance to save your marriage...if that is what you really want. 

(It's hard to believe now but I think little by little your wife is going to start to repulse you.) 

Remember - It's always better to Act rather than React. By exposing you Acted - do the same with the filing.

Lastly if she thinks the OM wants a middle aged woman with two kids for anything beyond a fling/free sex she is in for a rude awakening.


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## Iver

Here's a good link & website to review.
She calls it like it is.

The Humiliating Dance of ‘Pick Me’!


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## tom67

Iver said:


> Until you exposed the affair your wife has been calling all the shots. You derailed her plans in a big way by doing that.
> 
> Good for you. You did the right thing.
> 
> Now her private little fantasy is starting to look like as it really is - sleazy and pathetic.
> 
> File for divorce and have her served. This kind of frontal assault is the only thing that is going to give you a chance to save your marriage...if that is what you really want.
> 
> (It's hard to believe now but I think little by little your wife is going to start to repulse you.)
> 
> Remember - It's always better to Act rather than React. By exposing you Acted - do the same with the filing.
> 
> Lastly if she thinks the OM wants a middle aged woman with two kids for anything beyond a fling/free sex she is in for a rude awakening.


Can't like this enough.:iagree:


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## cdbaker

At this point I would agree that it is probably the right time to go ahead and file for the divorce. You'll remember that yesterday I was uncertain if now is the right time to file, but after hearing what she used the Friday MC appointment for, and how you responded well to it all, I definitely think now is the time.

Note, I am not saying that I think you need to necessarily go through with the divorce, but I do think it's the right time to send the message that you will not accept her behavior. She could say, "But I told you I haven't made my decision yet!" all day long, but the message you need to send is "I choose to not be married to a woman who believes that this is acceptable behavior. I choose not to be married to a woman who has so little respect for me that she feels entitled to my acceptance of such a decision in the first place." 

She is angry because she thought she was in a position to pick and choose what she wants and now you've taken steps that have A. Made her preferred choice much more costly (feeling the shame/guilt of her friends, family and maybe children), B. Made her preferred choice a little less likely to happen (OM feeling the heat might be even less inclined to want her), and C. her back up plan (you) now appears to be walking away as well. She sincerely believed that her holding that tiny sliver of a chance over your head as a carrot would be sufficient to keep you on the hook. By standing up to her, you are reacting completely out of character, and that angers her for a number of reasons.

So now is the time to go ahead and have her served with the papers. Show that you aren't backing down, that you will not be her back up plan. I'm convinced that she is fooling herself in thinking that the OM would take her and really only felt comfortable in pursuing him anyways ONLY because she was so confident that you would put up with it. Exposing her adultery, after having given her every chance in the world to walk away from it, was absolutely the right thing to do. Now you just need to finish the message with the divorce papers.

Remember that she will likely rage even harder and behave even more recklessly. She will despise you for making it harder for her to get what she wants and declining to be her back up plan. I'm talking temporary white-hot hate. She'll become desperate with the OM as well, and desperation is just as unattractive to us men as it is for women, so she'll just push him away even more than she was before. She'll find herself with no options at all. Ultimately, I'd say the odds are very good that she'd come crawling back to you, willing to make any number of promises left and right. But you can't take her back like that. It's a new opportunity for you to show her an all new man.


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## Iver

There's only one real answer to "But I told you I haven't made my decision yet!" Her getting served with divorce papers. 

You can always stop the process...you can even get remarried if it comes to that.

The actuality of the situation is she has made a decision. That is to pursue another man while married to you. 

You being a decent self-respecting man with two children are now filing for divorce.

Don't ever forget that your children are absorbing much more of this than you realize. They can now see what a man with character does in this situation. 

Be clear on this - what you do now will impact their character for the rest of their lives. Make sure it is a positive lesson.


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## Chaparral

There is a MAP plan in MMSLP that you can follow if you still want to reconcile. Personally, I don't think she is worth it. Can You imagine how many good women there are out there. Something is wrong with your wife, she has so little sense, her background must have screwed her up.

Have you looked up the symptoms of any personality disorders? Bpd and narccissim come to mind.


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## Chaparral

There is a MAP plan in MMSLP that you can follow if you still want to reconcile. Personally, I don't think she is worth it. Can You imagine how many good women there are out there. Something is wrong with your wife, she has so little sense, her background must have screwed her up.

Have you looked up the symptoms of any personality disorders? Bpd and narccissim come to mind.


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## Iver

Not to be a downer but has your wife seen her physician for a full examination to rule out any medical issues? 

It is in the realm of possibility that she has a neurological condition i.e. brain tumor/cancer. That would explain the out of ordinary behaviors.

Sad to say it does happen to people.


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## hopefulhubby

Hey Guys - Thank you for the advice and support. This update is not pretty and I am not sure if I should be sharing this.

Wed was the worst day of my life. I cant explain why or what, but a darkness came down on me like I have never experienced. I could barely move a muscle. I was in serious agony all day. I was out of control, sobbing for hours in the fetal position. I cried and wailed and thought of my children and everything and my wife going ballistic in the counsellors office the night before. "What's happening to to me?" I kept calling out. About midday I called my counselor and said I have to see him. I barely had the strength to drive to his office. I just kept saying "I don't know what to do". He asked me if I felt guilty about the exposure. I said no - as much as it killed me, I had no choice. She was about to move in with him and be one of his girlfriends openly - my kids and the world was about to find out. Plus all the email responses I got - many people already knew or suspected. (I will paste one email I got from the OM's brother below - I will edit out the names - I don't know if I am allowed to use my name on this forum but I cant afford to get banned).
----------------------
<My Name>,

I convey my condolences to you and your family in regards to this horrid situation. It is inexcusable. Let me assure you that <OM> and I walk very different (basically opposite) paths in life. I only recently caught wind that something might be happening, but I believed <My wifes name> to be a better person than that. <OM> never confides anything of that nature with me, because he knows that both <brothers wife> and I vehemently disagree with that kind of behavior. I am greatly troubled and disturbed by this. Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone has any influence over his behavior. He answers only to himself and no one else. He serves two gods, sex and money. That’s it. He doesn’t care who gets hurt along the way. Friends are generally a means to an end and he usually burns through them quickly.

I don’t understand what <My wifes name> fascination is with him, especially when she knows he’s also very involved with <OM girlfriends name> and has no interest in a monogamous relationship. The only hope to save your marriage is for <my wifes name> to regain her senses, but <OM> may have tainted her too much at this point for that to happen. 

<My name>, I know this has got to be killing you inside. I can’t speak to the weaknesses in your marriage with <my wifes name> that led to this, but the roots of the problem may be deeper than you think, and the damage irreparable. It’s obvious you are very concerned about your children and that you are trying to save the marriage in part because of them, but if she does not repent of this; you will be fighting a losing battle. 

I don’t know that there is much I can do to help restore your marriage, but if you want to talk, you can reach me at <phone nr.>.

If nothing else, I suggest you get counseling for you and your kids and suggest using a licensed Christian counselor if you’re so inclined.

My sympathies,

<OM's brother>
---------------

I slept through the night on Wed - first time in months. Thu I was feeling much better. I have been ok since that awful Wed. I managed to get some work done. When my wife dropped the kids off Thu afternoon she walked in to pick up some clothes. She was dressed up for a football party, she was cheerful and made some small talk about the Broncos game she was going to that evening. She seemed in a good mood - a total opposite from the crying panicking scene in the counselors office on Tue. She marched out with a handful of clothes and called out thanks and just drove off. She did not even say good bye to the kids. I just ignored her the whole time and did not say a word but kept staring into my laptop as if I was doing something important.

This morning - Friday - I dropped the kids at school and made my decision. I drove straight to my lawyers office without an appt. They were helpful. I re-dated and signed the petition asked them to file immediately. I just got an email from my lawyer saying its done and that they had called my wife to notify her and my wife said "first she heard of this". My phone immediately began ringing from her - I did not answer. She did not leave a msg. A few minutes later, she sent me a one line message saying "We can avoid high legal fees by using a mediator".

Its almost weekend and I am going to try and have some fun with the kids (after the laundry and other single-dad chores of course  

Thanks again for all the support guys. Much appreciated.


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## utah987654321

Just spent the past 30 minutes reading this story. Behind you all the way. Appalled at your wife's behavior and so glad you are taking cdbanks advice. Just joined myself and he has already given me plenty of insight!


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## cdbaker

So sorry to hear all of this. I typically am not on this forum much on the weekend but will try to reply better if I can maybe later tonight.

With that said, I think you've done the right thing.


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## Iver

cdbaker said:


> ...With that said, I think you've done the right thing.


Not just the right thing but really the only thing you could do.

Maybe she'll come to her senses sooner rather than later but who knows? You've gone above and beyond putting up with this disgraceful behavior.

I don't think this will end well for her but at this point that's not your problem. You need to take care of your children and yourself. 

I'd be worried at how vicious she'll be in the divorce. Be prepared for the worst - her asking for the house, kids, child support and alimony. Make sure your lawyer is prepared for this.

False accusations are also something you should be prepared to defend against. It might be prudent to get a VAR when with her.

While child custody is normally 50-50 in divorce there is a chance she will grant you 100%. Children don't seem to be a good fit for the lifestyle she looks to be pursuing these days.

Also don't hesitate to see your G.P. for something for anxiety & sleeplessness.


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## cdbaker

Yep. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst at this point.

Record all of her phone calls. Seriously, if you have a smartphone (iPhone or Android in particular) there are lots of apps available that could help you with recording calls with her. Save your texts too. If you can get letters from any friends/family who are close to her voicing their support for you as a parent, and perhaps their concern for her as a parent, that might be a good idea too. Keep an account of her spending if possible, if she is being reckless about it. Get your kids into IC, and after a couple of sessions, ask the counselor what his/her opinion is regarding custody. I wouldn't be surprised if he/she felt that residing primarily with you would be in their best interest.

My thought is that you should go for 50/50 overall custody, but 100% residential custody. That just means she has 50% of the major decision making like medical decisions, which schools they'll go to, whether they can move or not, etc. but they will live with you 100% of the time except for times designated as her visitation. At least early on, I think she should get no overnight visitation, only day time, probably not more than 3 or so days per week.

Further down the road, one way or the other, she'll probably wake up and realize how badly she has screwed up. The OM will not be her long term happiness. Maybe THEN can she be a responsible parent who deserves more input and responsibility for her kids, but not at this time. Right now she is just way too focused on herself and could not make responsible decisions for her kids independently.

I haven't mentioned it before, but I think it's pretty awesome for the OM's brother to come out in your support like this. I mean, no one would condone their behavior here, but he didn't have to reach out to you like that, so that's pretty respectable. I'd suggest staying in touch with him as much as you can. I bet he will have lots of information about what your wife has been up to that could be very useful if everything continues towards divorce. He might also be willing to write a letter for the court regarding his perception of your wife being out of her mind right now and incapable of properly caring for her children.


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## Decorum

hopefulhbby,

I hope you don't mind my just jumping in here.

I would like to add my voice to the chorus of others saying you did the right thing to file.

And don’t feel bad about your time grieving and crying, sometimes as men we have to grieve in the garden so we can face our cross later.

One thing I would like to mention is something I have seen before. 

Sometime after the husband files, could be sooner could be later depending, The wife will come back with a false repentance. This usually messes with the BS head, because it gives them false hope.

Some posters think this is an attempt to keep you as plan B, and I don’t doubt that, but there is another facet to it.

Women don’t just think their thoughts they feel them. It is quite possible for your wife to feel true guilt and regret for what she has done while at the same time having NO intention of changing her will in the matter.

It is a very double minded state of mind.

Don’t be fooled.

Often they come back to “talk” and they say they know it has to be hurting you and how bad they feel, and how they never meant for this to happen, and they cry and you cry, and then they will go back to Om feeling better and you will sit there thinking “maybe there is still hops, I feel so bad for her, she was the helpless girl in pain that I loved so much”.

Don’t, just don’t!

Your wife has lost her core, she has no firm root in herself.

If you don’t mind I will give a suggestion of how you might respond, “I cannot be your shoulder to cry on you have chosen another, you are full of guild and regret I get that, but you are also full of lust and a stubborn willingness to find happiness at other peoples expense and I cannot give you any comfort while you are on that path”.

A decent person finds happiness in an honorable way, not at the expense of others.

What would you expect to see if she had true remorse?

Asking “What can I do, I’ll do anything”?

Saying “I have completely broken it off with Om and I want to prove that I was wrong and will never go there again?

Saying “I have made an appointment with a counselor to try and work through the reasons I would do something like this to you and my children.

Anything less, is less than nothing.

Actions and consequence are the things that help someone who is in such a thick fog.

Stay strong, stand your ground, don’t second guess yourself!

Take care!


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## cdbaker

Decorum puts it very well. I just said something similar in my last PM, but certainly it seems very possible that she could wake up one of these days when she finds the divorce papers in her lap, the likely custody/property settlement orders aren't looking good for her, she's still sleeping at her mom's house because the OM continues to not be willing to commit, half of her friends refuse to support her along with some members of her family, etc. that she might show up on your porch with tears in her eyes.

As Decorum mentioned, she might come with true remorse and a desire to change course, or she might come just hoping to clear her own conscious a little bit by apologizing, crying with you, make a bit of peace with you, then go back to the OM feeling a little less guilty.


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## lifeistooshort

Fwiw, I wouldn't use a mediator with someone like this. As my dad told me when my divorce started, she is now your enemy and should be treated as such. Mediation is for two reasonable people, something you don't have. Play hardball with this one or she will exploit every weakness you have, both real and perceived. Pay the lawyer what it costs and think of it as the cost of getting your life back. You're a great catch and many women will be interested; on a side note your ex will lose her mind when you find someone else so be prepared. A good woman will not be interested in ex drama
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Iver

cdbaker said:


> Decorum puts it very well. I just said something similar in my last PM, but certainly it seems very possible that she could wake up one of these days when she finds the divorce papers in her lap, the likely custody/property settlement orders aren't looking good for her, she's still sleeping at her mom's house because the OM continues to not be willing to commit, half of her friends refuse to support her along with some members of her family, etc. that she might show up on your porch with tears in her eyes.
> 
> As Decorum mentioned, she might come with true remorse and a desire to change course, or she might come just hoping to clear her own conscious a little bit by apologizing, crying with you, make a bit of peace with you, then go back to the OM feeling a little less guilty.


She seems to have gone pretty far into Crazy Town. 

Hopefully she will come back to sanity once she's hit with the reality of her situation as noted above and especially when her fantasy life with the OM crashes and burns.

If she showed up then truly remorseful, well, who can say. I certainly wouldn't consider taking her back unless there was significant therapy involved.

Reconciliation as an option only because there's children involved. Otherwise this would be a no-brainer.


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## Chaparral

Concisely, prepare for the worse case scenario. Women that have gone as far as your wife rarely come back. More than likely you will be turned into the reason everything has gone to hell. Even the OM can't handle her craziness. He has moved on to another woman already.

Did you put him on cheaterville? That would make her drama even that more repellent for him.


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## cdbaker

lifeistooshort said:


> Fwiw, I wouldn't use a mediator with someone like this. As my dad told me when my divorce started, she is now your enemy and should be treated as such. Mediation is for two reasonable people, something you don't have. Play hardball with this one or she will exploit every weakness you have, both real and perceived. Pay the lawyer what it costs and think of it as the cost of getting your life back. You're a great catch and many women will be interested; on a side note your ex will lose her mind when you find someone else so be prepared. A good woman will not be interested in ex drama
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Also good points, with one exception. I don't think you should ever treat your spouse, even a soon to be ex-spouse if that is the case, as an enemy. When there are no kids involved, I think everyone should play fair for their own sake. (I know friends/family who have played fair and they feel much better for it years down the road, even if they could have gotten more by fighting dirty) With kids in the picture however, you've got to play as dirty as she is willing to go. If she is not capable of being a good mother/parent right now, as I do not think she is, then you have to make a case for why and that will mean you and your lawyer need to paint an accurate picture of her multiple issues. It won't be pretty and it won't look fair, but it's the truth and it's necessary.

I agree on the mediation part. I don't think it will do any good because from her perspective, she hasn't really done anything wrong aside from cheat on you, which due to her having virtually no respect for you, she doesn't even think is very wrong. (In a "A man not worthy of respect is not owed loyalty." sense) Further, from her view, none of her selfish and destructive choices should have anything to do with her parenting ability. So honestly, you'd both come to the table with completely opposing demands that she will never willingly negotiate on. It's not like you want the boat but she thinks she's entitled to 50% of it, so maybe you can settle on her getting 25%.

Further, by revealing your cards in mediation, she'll quickly realize that lawyers are the only option and will prepare herself better for the fight. I found myself in a similar position three years ago with my wife. She was doing a lot of the same things your wife is, and she too was completely oblivious to how her behaviors impacted her parenting ability. She saw nothing wrong with not seeing her daughter for 30 straight days after moving out, not even ASKING for an overnight with her for over 9 months, etc. By the time she realized that she was going to end up with only visitation, she had made a fool of herself in the court system with astounding demands that she couldn't hope to support. Had she known more clearly how the rest of the world viewed her behaviors, and how that gave me a strong case for full custody, she likely would have been far better prepared to fight and maybe gotten a better "deal".

(Note, I canceled my divorce at the last minute, literally two days from likely gaining full residential custody + child support from my wife, even with my income being double hers)

So yeah... if you can afford it, I'd skip the mediation, and don't explain why. There is no reason to make this any easier on her anyway. She won't wake up until she hits rock bottom anyway, so letting her think this path could be easier won't help anything. And again, she very well might wake up and realize what she has done and have a true honest turnaround, so if you are still open to that, then just make this stage as unpleasant as possible from a financial/legal angle. (Don't be an **** to her or anything. Just cordial and non-emotional)


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## hopefulhubby

Hi All,

I do not really have any updates about our marriage - I have resigned myself to the fact that it is over and my focus now is about my kids and the divorce process. My lawyer told me that my wife went into their office and signed the "Waiver and Acceptance of Service of Process".

I am out of town traveling for business and will be gone for 3 nights - my wife is at home baby-sitting the kids until I get back. The advice you have all given me about how to proceed with the divorce is really helpful and also what to be aware of regarding her possible reactions.

I talked to her sister and asked her to suggest my wife go for a physical due to her un-explained behavior - but asked her to not to relay that this message came from me - else my wife will think its simply an anger or desperation thing rather than a genuine concern. Her sister agreed.

I spoke with our kids counselor and she told me that since the divorce is now underway, we need to start making joint parenting decisions. The counselor is still upset with me about the exposure and thinks I should have discussed this with my wife first before exposing to the children. I have been unable to convince the counselor the kids were about to find out anyway and that my wife would never have agreed - as her whole game was to keep the affair a secret from everyone, including the kids - so I had no choice, but I did it to protect and prepare my children from seeing what they were about to see. But the counselor is still thinks that my actions were harmful to my kids. I explained that there is close zero communication with my wife about anything related to children (or anything for that matter), other than one line texts or emails about kids pickup from school, so there is little opportunity to discuss or agree/disagree or compromise on anything, but I committed to try and begin communication with my wife via email. 

I am not comfortable with the cheaterville thing - but I did send a message that may cause him (and her) to feel the cost of their relationship. I sent my wife a message discussing some decisions about the kids we need to make - like when to tell them about the divorce, etc. I also said to her in the message that it is not in the best interest of our kids for her to be seeing the OM in front of our kids or to move in with him until the divorce is final. I also told her to ensure that OM has zero contact with our kids and told her to ensure that he does not come onto our property under any circumstances!
I then sent the OM a message saying that I can't trust her to relay the message to him accurately, so I pasted a snippet of the message so he could see exactly what I said. I also told him that this not a threat or anything like that and I am not planning anything, but that he needs to be clear that there is no limit to which I will go to to protect my children and the exposure was nothing compared to the lengths I will go to ensure their well-being.

I have had no response yet - but I am guessing she is contacting her counselor and possibly a lawyer.


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## Chaparral

The cheaterville thing is designed to break up the affair. What exactly are you uncomfortable about. If the shoe were on the other foot, would the other man hesitate to throw you under the bus?

There is a reason nice guys finish last.


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## Chaparral

Are you afraid he will threaten you again? He took your wife and you did nothing, I don't think he will take your warning about your kids seriously. As a matter of fact, he may be looking forward to being their step daddy.


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## Iver

I'm confused about the situation with the OM...he's living with his girlfriend now? If so, what makes you think your wife will be moving in with him then?

How does the girlfriend rate compared to your wife? Any kids on her side? Also does the OM have children?

Does the girlfriend know about your STBXW and her future plans?

Unless there's a threesome kinda thing going on where they both live with the OM it seems like your wife is delusional. 

Obviously if it ends up being a 3's company deal then I hope you'd get 100% custody.

What does your wifes sister say about this as well?


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## hopefulhubby

I am not sure how to respond the cheaterville comments yet - but for the other questions:
My posts have been long and some of the details may be lost in the weeds. 
I do not know all the specifics as there is no communication and I believe things might have changed since the exposure about a week and a half ago. Here is what I know.
OM's girlfriend does not live with him as she has her own house with 3 young kids. Even though the girlfriend is still married - she is separated from her husband - but OM and girlfriend are openly in a relationship and they go out in public together etc. and everyone knows including her husband. 
My wife is/was technically cheating on me AND the girlfriend as my wife only gets to be with OM when he can sneak away from his girlfriend.
Almost 2 weeks ago, my wife asked me to go with her to her counselor where she announced that she is planning on being with OM. I asked what about his girlfriend and my wife said that is just temporary. So my assumption was she was planning on getting the girlfriend out of the way so she could be exclusively with OM - I think my wife believed she would be moving in with him as she said he had told her he loves her. I did the exposure 2 days after the appt. at the counselor, and I included girlfriend in the exposure.
I doubt there is 3-some going on, but my wife gave me some angry words 1 week after whilst dropping kids off and told me that the exposure gave her some clarity and her and girlfriend are now tight (I suspect my wife might be playing the keep your enemies close game with the girlfriend - but who knows).
OM's youngest just left for college, so he is technically single, recently divorced kid-free empty nester.
My wife's sister is shocked and wanted to fly in to help rescue the situation and try talk sense to my wife. I told her to wait a while for the dust to settle from the exposure before doing anything. The whole family is shocked - but they are all far away - most of our friends that are local told me they already knew or suspected or were not surprised by the news in my exposure letter. (My wife was getting sloppy with hiding her shenanigans). One friend had actually told me she is embarrassing herself when they sneak off together - this was just before I kicked her out. She has been gone for about 2 months now staying at a friends house and thus no communication with me - kids are with me close to 100% of the time - she only picks up kids from school and drops them at home and and babysits 3 nights a month when I need to travel for work.
From a rating point of view - my wife out ranks the girlfriend by a pretty long shot in most ways (i.e. if this was a fair game and everyone was single, most guys would pick my wife over the girlfriend hands down). Except for her recent delusional behavior and ensuing drama, I can easily believe that OM may be in love with my wife - perhaps I am biased.
I hope this helps answer your questions.
We live in a no-fault state (Colorado), so getting full custody is close to impossible - and my wife is too intelligent in covering her tracks for me to make a real case against her. I almost need to hope she willingly grants me full custody as she has shown no interest in wanting to be with the the kids, except for minimum obligations - like picking them up from school and babysitting 3 nights a month when I need to travel for work - the rest of the time she is off doing her own thing. Although she is self absorbed, she cares about how the world (and our kids) perceive her - so she will make the effort to try and look somewhat innocent and blame me. (Even though that may sound bizarre).


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## cdbaker

I think the court would really REALLY frown on the fact that she only wants her kids 3 nights a month and for only minutes at a time on other days when helping with pick-up's. Do not rely on the hope that she'll grant you custody, because even if she isn't interested in being a full or half-time mom, she probably would not be interested in having to pay you child support, which is what would happen if you got full residential.

Also, don't underestimate the stigma associated with being a single mom who couldn't get her kids in the divorce. It is generally expected that single mom's get at least 50% custody and they usually get the majority of the residential custody. (Like maybe the man gets every other weekend + one weekday, while she gets the rest) So there is a stigma involved that if you are a woman and didn't get at least 50% custody and majority residential, that you must be a bad mom. So it's still very likely in my mind that when it comes time to go to court, she'll show up seeking at least 50% custody, majority residential custody, and child support, even if she's hardly been a mom at all to them for months.

Double check your state laws too, because I was initially told that my state is no-fault as well, but then later on I was told that it is technically both. You can file for an at-fault divorce, but it comes with a burden of proof (needing to prove that the spouse is primarily responsible for the divorce) and those cases can be very expensive to fight and win since the spouse has much more at stake and is more likely to want to fight. I was told that if I didn't have much in the way of wealth or assets, then there is absolutely zero benefit for an at-fault divorce.

As for your wife, she might be the more attractive pick over the other girlfriend, but I bet your wife has also become one of those women who are desperately in love and hover around just hoping and waiting for any little bone you throw their way. I'm not sure if you've ever been the man in that type of situation, but it is a huge turn off, just as it is for women with guy's behaving that way. The OM has another girlfriend because he knows he can and it won't scare your wife away. The OM's girlfriend is also an adulterous wife because he knows picking off lonely/neglected wives is easy business, he doesn't have to make promises of exclusivity (since they usually can't either), he doesn't have to open up his whole life to them like he would with a single girlfriend, he can pick and choose when he wants to see her, etc. Maybe he even likes your wife better, but she'll never "win" him the way she is behaving." Heck, she is sort of behaving the same way you did early on in allowing him to continue on with the girlfriend, or at least thinking that she is allowing him, when in reality she really has no control over that at all.

I really feel confident that her fling with him is going to crash and burn. She'll either come back to you in tears, or try to be steadfast and immediately go looking for another man as fast as possible. Mark my words!

Good idea with the wife's sister. Let things settle just a bit and then suggest she go see your wife. In fact, not just for the dust to settle, but for her to really realize that her aspirations for the OM are completely futile.

Remind me, does your wife work full or part time? Have you cut her off financially? And who is this friend that she is staying with that would support this kind of behavior?


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## turnera

Re your kids' counselor, can you go to another counselor and get a second opinion? I'm worried your stbx will try to use the counselor as a witness that you are harmful.


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## Iver

I've heard over and over documentation is critical when it comes to child custody. You should have clear proof you are carrying 98% of the child duties while your wife is out in La-La land.

I'd have a serious powwow with your lawyer to make sure he's up to speed on your situation.

While anything is possible I'd be quite surprised if the OM wants to have children in his home two weeks out of the month (assuming your wife gets the standard 50-50 split)

It's a long shot but consider getting a background check done on the OM - if there is any criminal activity it might help get a RO against him where your children are concerned.


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## turnera

Yeah, get a big year calendar and start marking out all the days you had custody in one color and all her days in another.


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## cdbaker

Turnera is completely right with both of his/her last posts!

And regarding a restraining order, you can't just get one because someone has a really bad background and you are concerned about your children being allowed around him/her. (at least in my state, but I imagine it's similar in others) When I filed one against my wife's OM, in order to get a final order there had to be not just one, but two clear instances of him initiating threatening behavior towards me, with at least one of those instances taking place AFTER officially making it clear to him that I wanted ZERO contact with him of any kind. In my case, his need to control/manipulate my wife was so strong, that I found him following me in his car one day. He followed me to my wife's work, and was waiting for me in the car just a few hundred feet away. He didn't realize that I knew what he and his car looked like and hid by sliding down into his seat. I confronted him and after playing dumb for a while, he threatened physical injury if he were to see me again.

All in all, it worked out wonderfully. By giving me cause to file for the protection order, I was able to include my daughter as a victim and bar him from going within 100 feet of her, my home or her school. Given that it turned out he is a pedophile, I think I did society a favor.

Nonetheless, it's a good idea to look into his background. I went down to the courthouse to check out the OM and found a boatload of court cases, failed marriages, criminal complaints, etc. All of that only made the wife's decision making and parenting ability at the time appear that much more questionable.

Document document document!


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## tdwal

cdbaker said:


> Turnera is completely right with both of his/her last posts!
> 
> And regarding a restraining order, you can't just get one because someone has a really bad background and you are concerned about your children being allowed around him/her. (at least in my state, but I imagine it's similar in others) When I filed one against my wife's OM, in order to get a final order there had to be not just one, but two clear instances of him initiating threatening behavior towards me, with at least one of those instances taking place AFTER officially making it clear to him that I wanted ZERO contact with him of any kind. In my case, his need to control/manipulate my wife was so strong, that I found him following me in his car one day. He followed me to my wife's work, and was waiting for me in the car just a few hundred feet away. He didn't realize that I knew what he and his car looked like and hid by sliding down into his seat. I confronted him and after playing dumb for a while, he threatened physical injury if he were to see me again.
> 
> All in all, it worked out wonderfully. By giving me cause to file for the protection order, I was able to include my daughter as a victim and bar him from going within 100 feet of her, my home or her school. Given that it turned out he is a pedophile, I think I did society a favor.
> 
> Nonetheless, it's a good idea to look into his background. I went down to the courthouse to check out the OM and found a boatload of court cases, failed marriages, criminal complaints, etc. All of that only made the wife's decision making and parenting ability at the time appear that much more questionable.
> 
> Document document document!


Wow, after my sons divorce during exchanges of my grandson the OM would stand inches away from his ex-wife and moved with her everywhere she went. It was really weird. I had to start going along with my son out of concern what this guy might do and to keep my son from reacting. It turns out he was an abuser and we were able to take full physical custody of my grandson away because of his abuse but he was obviously doing it to the ex and she looked scared all the time.

Protection orders are not always very effective as well, we got on against the ex's boyfriend, but the small town they lived in they all knew each other and the local authorities would not do anything. Our only recourse was to go to court.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi Everyone,
Thanks to all for following this thread and for all the support and advice. I haven't had much chance for an update, but I will when things settle down a bit. Too many things are changing too quickly, all I can say is the exposure, divorce filing and 180 seems to be doing its magic. When I have a clear update, I will post again. 
Thanks again.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi All,

I still don't have a clear update as things are changing daily, often several times per day. Its a confusing time and I just spent the evening reading through all my posts and responses I have received from all of you. It is quite remarkable that almost everything you guys have prepared me for has happened. All the warnings, possible reactions, contradicting words and actions. The text book stuff is working like a tried and true recipe - with just one small twist - but perhaps I will see that in the days ahead, its too early to tell...

When I got back from my once-per-month 3 day business trip 1 week ago, she had moved back in un-announced into the guest room. I tried to ask her to leave, but have no legal options to force her out. It was heated for a day or two, but my wife has calmed down after the exposure and divorce filing and she is responding in all the ways expected. She is being cordial and reflecting on her life and the kids etc. She is slowly coming back to reality from la la land as you guys phrase it. I am even seeing some remorse and guilt. The only twist is that she is giving me zero. Zero repentance, zero apology, zero hope, zero anything. She is cordial, sometime even pleasant with me, but all her coming back is for her own life and the kids. She is accepting the divorce process and following procedure, collecting financial docs for the lawyers, finding her own place to live, etc. She is still holding out for the OM and is still totally in love with him - from what I can tell, even more deeply in love with him that she ever was with me. It almost looks like she is giving OM the 180 in hopes that OM will leave his girlfriend for her. Like I said, I am not sure of whats going on, but there are big changes are happening in her. 
I am not hoping or even wanting her to want me back or even apologize or anything - I think I have accepted the situation and I don't believe I could take her back - even if she did show interest. But the truth is I don't really know - I am just mesmerized by all her changes. Who knows where this will go. 

Personally, I am doing pretty good. I am sleeping through the night most nights, but not all. I don't cry anymore - well maybe a little, but certainly no more sobbing. I am getting work done. I still have a ways to go before getting back to fully normal (or whatever normal is after a journey like this). I have been getting some good support from friends. I feel I might just be able to survive whatever may come down the road. I am taking one day at a time. I would never have got this far without you guys. Thanks again. I mean it from the bottom of my beta heart 
(I will keep posting as things unfold).
Peace.


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## AVR1962

HopefulHubby, I did not read everyone's advise to you but I can speak from some experience on this. My first husband is the very predator you have described in your post. He was the type that would knock the socks off any women, he doted and said all the right things to anyone he was wanting to get in bed with. These types are very powerful and very dangerous. These men collect women and their experiences with them to satisfy their own insecurities, to make them feel worthy.

It doesn't matter what you did or didn't do. She has been, and is being manipulated and she cannot see it right now. She just thinks her prince charming has jumped out behind a bush and found her. 

I watched as my ex-husband played his lover who he left me for, she eventually dumped him. I watched as he pursued his second wife and cheated on her in the same way he did me. His second wife ended up divorcing him. Now he is with yet another sweet victim and I am watching as this all plays out too. She left her husband of 20 years to be with my ex and while it is new it will be intense but he will tire of her soon enough and be looking for someone else.

My advise to you, and this is very very hard, let her experience this for herself. She is not listening to you and she will not hear you. If anything you could easily turn her totally against you the more desperate you become to convince her to return to the family.

We each have a journey in our lives and no one can tell us what is right or wrong for us or what we need to do with our lives. We all have choices. I know this is not easy, trust me, I was like you, I could not sleep, I fell into a deep depression. I had two small children depending on me and I was a mess. Detach, go thru the pain of giving your wife her freedom. I had to tell myself over and over again, "I love him enough to let him go, "there was nothing I could do and same is true for you.

Whether you are religious or not, you might find the serenity prayer of some help, I taped it to my fridg and read it over and over again. You have to find your strength, find a focus, let her go find her way, detach emotionally.

If then she comes back to you and admits her mistake and you still love this woman, realize she was brainwashed by this creep. Her head was manipulated and she wasn't thinking on her own.

I do wish you the best.


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## Iver

I suspect her roommate got tired of her and gave her the boot, hence the return home. I do see moving in with the OM wasn't in the works either.

What AVR1962 says so well is true. "_She is not listening to you and she will not hear you." _

My experience with someone who went to Crazy Town bares this out. Nothing I could say or show or explain or plead (or yell) made an iota of difference. Nothing.

It's hard to truly internalize this truth but once you realize this it can be a relief, almost as if you are putting down a heavy burden you have been carrying.

I'm sorry but it's over (as you knew intellectually at the get go and now know emotionally)

If children weren't involved this would be very black and white - divorce & split assets and then adios. Turn your back on her and never cross paths again. Good Riddance. Too bad it's not going to be that easy.

I still have a hard time believing she'll end up living with the OM, especially if she has 50-50 custody. I don't want to make a bad situation seem worse but based on what you've written about this man I would have real problems with having your daughter near him. I think you know what I mean. 

Crazy Town is not a good place for children to be. Try for full custody if at all possible.


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## hopefulhubby

Thanks again for the truthful words and sharing some of your own struggles - it's really helpful. I discovered she came back to show interest in the kids on the advice of her lawyer. She was worried about losing custody. Since she has been back, she started looking for her own place and has found a townhouse suitable for the kids and will be moving out at the end of the week. We have been discussing 50/50 custody and setting up a calendar, etc. (as if we are already divorced and the process has only just begun).
She has been cordial, but there are too many signs she is pretending - she slips up all the time her true colors peek out.

I suggested we sit the kids down on Saturday morning to give them the official "Divorce" news together. I said we could possibly all have breakfast together with the children and then afterwords we could break this dreadful news to them. She replied to to email "thats a great idea". It made me sick to read that - how could this be a "great idea". Its tragic. 

Its a sad sight to see - I can see how it is affecting the kids - their demeanor is sinking day by day with all the changes and packing going on. She has not even made them a single meal since being back 2 weeks. I don't have much legal recourse - she does the minimum to cover herself. I think the kids are her plan B as she is setting herself up to be available for OM. 

It seems like this is all a game for her. She is pretending to be interested in the kids and taking them to soccer practice once or twice, but when the OM calls, she abandons the kids and dashes off to be with him - no matter the hour of day or night. We had a long argument this evening as I called her since she did not pick up my son from school - she kept lying saying she was in a business meeting, as it turns out she was with OM. I was in the front yard and I saw him drop her off at the corner of our street and she began walking home. When she saw me, she waved to him to take off quickly - tires screeching as he sped off. I was mad as hell and told her - what if the kids saw this and told her that if he ever sets foot on our property or comes near my children, so help me...

Personally, I think I am emotionally detached enough to not even care about her anymore - let alone ever wanting her back. I am just worried about my children and their well being. I have been reading up on NPD and she has about 80% of the text book symptoms. 
I am looking forward to her being out of the house by weeks end, but I am dreading see my children go stay with her every other week. I cant protect them from this OM showing up and being around them. I have made it abundantly clear he is not allowed near them, but she keeps telling me I can't stop it when she is in her own place. I have even asked her to consider the words of her counselor and lawyer that it is not good for the kids to see her with someone else so soon - but like you guys say, she is not listening to me and does not hear me.

It's a confusing time and I think I am emotionally dead. I am trying to just take this one day at a time. Just when I began to see some changes afoot - not necessarily hopeful change - but something different from the hell I have been through, more surprises rear their ugly head. I should probably change my screen name to gobsmacked. Some of you have warned me to be prepared for the worst. I guess as the divorce process unfolds, things will prove even more revealing - who knows how evil she really is. How I wish there were things we see that we could somehow un-see.


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## Chaparral

Did you put him on cheaterville? Mass exposure has helped in many cases. At minimum it keeps a homewrecker from getting off scott free.

Check with your attorney to see if you can force her to be psychologically evaluated in regards to custody.

I hope you are keeping a record of every lie, slight to to the kids, etc. Lying about being at work and not picking up kids, not fixing but two meals in two weeks.

Make sure you can get a run down on what goes on from the kids, without putting them in the middle of course.

Many people have been able to get their attorney to stop the om from being around their kids until after the divorce. If you can do that, drag out the divorce.


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## 3Xnocharm

Her behavior is disgusting. Shame on her for thinking that it will be ok for the kids to be exposed to her AP, this is going to be difficult enough for them without throwing THAT in their faces so soon. Remind us how old your kids are?


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## turnera

Why don't you fight for more than 50/50, if she's not paying attention to them?


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## Iver

This is where your lawyer earns their money. 

If your children are not fed or abandoned while in her care you need to know exactly what the law/child protective services will allow you to do.

Have you also discussed with your wife her just giving you 100% custody? It sounds like she really isn't interested in them so this would actually make life easier for her.


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## hopefulhubby

My kids are aged 12 and 14 (boy and girl respectively). I have mentioned to my wife and lawyer about giving me 100% residential custody and we can have 50/50 decisions about medical decisions, schools, etc.
My wife said "no" - she cares that family, etc. including OM perceive her as a good mother that cares for her children, even though her actions demonstrate the opposite. She does the minimum. We live in Colorado and my lawyer also said I have no chance of getting more then 50% custody short of her being in jail or moving out of state.


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## 3Xnocharm

hopefulhubby said:


> My kids are aged 12 and 14 (boy and girl respectively). I have mentioned to my wife and lawyer about giving me 100% residential custody and we can have 50/50 decisions about medical decisions, schools, etc.
> My wife said "no" - she cares that family, etc. including OM perceive her as a good mother that cares for her children, even though her actions demonstrate the opposite. She does the minimum. We live in Colorado and my lawyer also said I have no chance of getting more then 50% custody short of her being in jail or moving out of state.


Well, your kids are old enough that they can do whatever the hell they want. I cant imagine the court assigning custody that goes against the wishes of your kids at this point. So even if it works out as "50/50", I pretty much guarantee that your kids wont follow it.


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## turnera

Maybe she just wants money? Give her the money and let them live with you.


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## Iver

hopefulhubby said:


> My kids are aged 12 and 14 (boy and girl respectively). I have mentioned to my wife and lawyer about giving me 100% residential custody and we can have 50/50 decisions about medical decisions, schools, etc.
> My wife said "no" - she cares that family, etc. including OM perceive her as a good mother that cares for her children, even though her actions demonstrate the opposite. She does the minimum. We live in Colorado and my lawyer also said I have no chance of getting more then 50% custody short of her being in jail or moving out of state.


What are your children's wishes? They are certainly old enough to have an opinion about this situation.

If you haven't done so be sure that they know the truth about the situation (I know you've discussed it with them but not to what degree.) 

Make sure they know the OM is a predator and to act accordingly.


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## hopefulhubby

Hi Guys - Just a quick update. We start 50-50 parenting next week and the kids will be with her in her new place. They have not been with her for in about 3 months, so beginning next week, a new chapter begins. 
I have told the kids exactly what the deal is and that they have zero contact with OM. I have made my position crystal clear to her. She says that she will comply for now, but she tells me to get over it as at some point they will be seeing her with him. I cant control this and will just have to deal with it. We are under strict orders not to let the kids believe they have any say in the matter - colorado law does not allow kids under age 19 to make decisions - only professionals are allowed to make recommendations to the court - but court date is still a few months away. I am documenting everything in the meantime. She is being forced to take responsibility for the kids and there are signs showing that she wants to begin doing that - but its hard for me to tell if her heart is really in it just yet. I will see how the next few weeks unfold.


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## Iver

Are your children in counseling at present? I imagine at their age this must be really traumatic for them. (vs. just plain ole traumatic for you.) How are they taking this? Especially in light of your wife's shabby behavior?

Do you think you can find activities you can do with your children? I know of a Father & Son taking MMA together for example. 

Even if that's not a realistic you should find something you can do that's a positive for the times you don't have custody. (drinking by yourself doesn't count)
Maybe CrossFit or something similar? 

Also, per your wife's statement: _...at some point they will be seeing her with him_. You should be prepared to deal with this starting ~15 minutes after they arrive at her new place...


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## hopefulhubby

Hi All,
My kids are both in counseling - it is traumatic for them and they are taking this as expected - its not easy. I am in several activities with them - biking, camping, soccer, etc. but maybe I should do something more formal like a class together or something like that. 
I am taking care of myself as much as possible, making new friends, etc. and definitely no drinking alone 
I have asked my lawyer if there is anyway from preventing him from having contact with the kids, but have not heard back yet - I am preparing for the worst.
Thanks again for the advice and ideas.


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## Tron

Not much you can do. 

Move out of state, maybe.


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## terrence4159

boy they were not kidding when they said colorado is the new california...in idaho at the age of 13 the kid can decide with what parent they want to live with.


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## Chaparral

Kids under 19?


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## utah987654321

I've been gone for awhile, so just catching up on your story. Sorry to hear of your worries. I don't have children, but if I did I think I would just about drop dead at the sight of them with my husband and another woman playing house. My heart goes out to you.


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## firebelly1

Not sure what to say but I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's got to be devastating.


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## LongWalk

Hi Hope,

How are things going?

People always say that punching OM is not worth it, prison, police blah, blah. I figure it would have saved you a world of trouble. He probably wouldn't wanted it to go court, where his cheating would have been exposed.

But our hesitance to resort to violence is so ingrained.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## DavidWYoung

There is no training for this. You did make a lot of mistakes but that is just the way it is. Good for you on starting the divorce paper work. Two more things, NEVER speak with her unless you have a VAR on! Forgive her and yourself and NEVER, I mean NEVER speak of this while on a date. Put all of this hurt and pain in a room in your mind, shut the door and walk away from that room. Just my 2 cents. Been there, done that! David


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## hopefulhubby

Hi All,
Thanks for the encouraging support and feedback. I have been away from the forums in a while and getting my life sorted out. I have learned a lot about myself and all my mistakes and I really feel like I am at a whole new place - almost an optimistic place in many ways. I wish I had done some things earlier - it feels I wasted so many months - almost a year agonizing and hoping for something that was long gone - I realize that now and I have let it all go and put that entire mess into its long overdue grave. I actually feel free and strangely optimistic about my future. I have had zero contact with her and it feels good to have her out of my mind and my life. I don't miss her or even think about her anymore. In fact I was dreading seeing her at our 1st court hearing yesterday and she did not even bother to show up - relief for me, but the judge was a little pissed. Thoughts of her now seem to make me sick. My strength is back, my work is blossoming again and I have made a few new friends. This may seem weird, but in a strange way, I feel that this was a good thing that happened - I was stuck in the vortex of a woman who was suffocating me - and now I am breathing for the first time. I get to do what I want, when I want and how I want and it feels kind great. I would never have gotten here without this forum - thats for sure. Support is vital - even with strangers or vertrans facing similar battles - so thanks again to all of you. I will be back - but its time to change my screen name from hopefulhubby to something more freedom oriented. Suggestions welcome 
DavidWYoung - thanks for the tip about "NEVER speak of this while on a date" - I have been getting friends trying to hook me up on dates, but I have declined up to now - just not interested - being a little selfish with my time and life - but I know that sooner or later things may go that way, so thats a great tip - thanks.
I am a software engineer and we have this joke at work when the boss asks how the projects going, we say "its all done - its just a matter of coding now"  and this is how I feel about my marriage - its totally done - its just a matter of some legal paperwork. (ok geek humor - sorry). Thanks again friends.
Peace.


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## Iver

_I wish I had done some things earlier - it feels I wasted so many months - almost a year agonizing and hoping for something that was long gone - I realize that now and I have let it all go and put that entire mess into its long overdue grave_.

Don't beat yourself up for trying to salvage your marriage and family...you did what you needed to do and you can look back and say you gave it 100%. You'll never wonder if only you had just tried harder or made just one more try maybe the marriage could have been saved.

That being said if you ever experience this again I'm positive on Day #1 you'll drop kick the problem out the front door.


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