# The Placebo Effect



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

My wife and I don't keep secrets from each other. Now I'm facing a quandary after digesting the knowledge dispensed in this forum. From what I gather, the advice given almost always depends on the WS being ignorant of the tactics being deployed against them. There's a lot of game-theory principles in play too. The Shock and Awe Effect, IMO, won't be nearly as effective if the WS knows all of the moves and tactics and recognizes them for what they are. Filing for D because one must be willing to lose the marriage in order to save the marriage can work to shock the WS back to reality, but it's often times not actually a fait accompli which results in divorce, when the WS accepts the filing at face value, is shocked, then a reconnection may result and the D is delayed or aborted. 

However, if the WS knows the playbook, then the couple are engaged in a game of Chicken, who will flinch first? If both stick to their guns, then D happens. The shock effect never arrives.

The 180. If both spouses put that into effect, there is no bridge back to the marriage.

The surveillance techniques. The cheating forums are working to neutralize any advantage that a BS could gain from intel gathering.

So, I'd love to be sharing many of the comments and stories found here with my wife, simply to bring home the real trauma of infidelity, but to do so would also expose her to real world tactics that I don't want neutralized if I ever find myself in this horrible place in my life. So, I'm going to rationalize this away as being no different than material I read in my professional journals, it's not secret knowledge I keep from my wife, It's just material I don't really talk about with her, just like she doesn't fill me in on the minutia of the health-related professional journals she reads.

I am left wondering though if there is any advice for folks who find themselves matched against a spouse who is forewarned of all of these tactics. Is there anyway which can dispel The Fog when the WS knows what you're trying to do?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

For the most part, the advice given here is not meant to encourage any game playing, "chicken" or any other type of dare game. In general, the advice is meant to provide a route to self-healing, protection for the BS and his/her kids and an assurance that things will get better. The game that you refer to is part of the self-healing part where the BS needs to know the truth and is trying to get to it by any means possible (surveillance, snooping, shock-awe etc).

In the case where the BS is not sure or does not have sufficient evidence, this last part is useful. However, gut feeling and circumstantial evidence can also go a long way to discovery.

You may think that the purpose of all of this is marriage recovery or reconciliation, but my own experience here is that most cases of infidelity lead to divorce and separation and the purpose of the forum is to enable this to happen in a protected way and as quickly as possible. At the end of the day it is often down to the courts and lawyers to try and make this happen.

So if in the case of a WS being forewarned and forearmed, it would accelerate very quickly to the law courts and legal system. The rest is for the mental and physical well being of the BS.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

manfromlamancha said:


> For the most part, the advice given here is not meant to encourage any game playing, "chicken" or any other type of dare game. In general, the advice is meant to provide a route to self-healing, protection for the BS and his/her kids and an assurance that things will get better. The game that you refer to is part of the self-healing part where the BS needs to know the truth and is trying to get to it by any means possible (surveillance, snooping, shock-awe etc).
> 
> In the case where the BS is not sure or does not have sufficient evidence, this last part is useful. However, gut feeling and circumstantial evidence can also go a long way to discovery.
> 
> ...


My intent was not to portray the advice given as game playing, rather to portray the advice as being effective in generating a desired response. So many husbands try to "nice her" back into the marriage. They come here and come to learn that this doesn't work. What do they WANT? Isn't it a fair observation to note that most of these personal stories begin with the BS, who is still committed to the marriage, wanting their WS to come back to the marriage? 

The ultimate outcome comes into focus later in the process, divorce. What many remark on is that relations and feelings went down the toilet from the repeated gaslighting and lying and the prolonged affair. My understanding is that the initial desire, to avoid divorce, is best accomplished when the WS snaps back quickly and minimizes the downstream damage which comes from TT, gaslighting, lying, and the other ego-defense tactics deployed. A lot of the advice given, if implemented, does work to snap the WS back to reality. File already. Do the 180. Expose to the OM/OW. Destroy the fantasy. 

What is the core dynamic of exposing the OM/OW? To remove the AP from the life of the WS because the AP will be busy *reconciling* their own marriage. What is at the core of BS's reluctance to expose? They don't want to blow up the AP's marriage and thus free the AP, via divorce, to commit to the WS. So right here we see reconciliation as the opening gambit being played out in the AP's own marriage. The BS believes/fears exposure will lead to divorce in the AP's marriage while simultaneously hoping to reconcile their own marriage. The advice to expose is predicated upon the dynamic of the AP focusing on saving his own marriage, not divorcing.

As I note in another thread, I'm very skeptical of reconciliation, but this seems to be the hand that most people want to play at the beginning of their personal hell playing out. We should also recognize that these tactics, if deployed early and effectively, can bring the WS back to the marriage before they cross some unforgivable line, so in many cases the advice/tactics are really part of a game-theory experiment playing out in real people's lives. If you can stop the texting before the sexting and "ILY" begin, then damage to the marriage may be minimal. A lot of this, IMO, depends on the WS being ignorant of what the BS is implementing.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

When a BS starts to suspect infidelity, the first reaction often is to try and nice the WS back into a relationship (particularly when the BS is a man). Exposure is sometimes seen to help with this goal by shining a light on the illicit relationship and hopefully ending the infidelity. It also serves to achieve what is morally right in letting the other BS know. In the case of men, it serves to help their primal need to reclaim what is theirs. In the case of women, it is an attempt to return to stability while working out what to do next. However, these can both be applied to both sexes.

In general ending infidelity through exposure is not a bad thing as it speeds up the end result whatever that may be.

As you have noted, the end result is divorce more often than not. And when it doesn't end in divorce, it is usually rugswept only to rear its head later on. Exposure lines up all ones ducks in readiness for this. It also reduces the humility of being in a marriage while infidelity is still on-going and the BS is trying to resolve feelings and plans and actions.

A BS attempting to save a marriage is reluctant to expose because they are worried about ruining the reputation of the spouse (who may also be a parent) going forward especially since they are planning to stay together.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Lance Mannion said:


> What is at the core of BS's reluctance to expose? They don't want to blow up the AP's marriage and thus free the AP, via divorce, to commit to the WS.


I suppose this is why I had no reluctance to expose. Her AP already "committed" (according to her) .... if he got free to take her off of me, I would have danced an Irish jig (and I'm not even an Irishman). They so richly deserved each other, far be it from me to stand in their way......



manfromlamancha said:


> A BS attempting to save a marriage is reluctant to expose because they are worried about ruining the reputation of the spouse


I couldn't possibly have made her reputation any worse than she already had.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


Lance Mannion said:



Filing for D because one must be willing to lose the marriage in order to save the marriage can work to shock the WS back to reality, but it's often times not actually a fait accompli which results in divorce,

Click to expand...

*I find this to be such a pitiful, desperate move on the part of the BS, just to try to get their WS to stop what they're doing.

Seriously, if I have to file divorce papers in order to get his attention or to get him to temporarily stop what he's doing, then he ain't worth it.

*



The 180. If both spouses put that into effect, there is no bridge back to the marriage.

Click to expand...

*The only time I'd engage in that game play is when I'm waiting for my new place to become available and I'm stuck living with my cheater until it is. Way too many BS's engage in the 180 in the hopes of winning their cheating prizes back. Yeah...that's a hard pass from me. Who wants a cheater back?

*



I am left wondering though if there is any advice for folks who find themselves matched against a spouse who is forewarned of all of these tactics. Is there anyway which can dispel The Fog when the WS knows what you're trying to do?

Click to expand...

*LOL. Someone's been reading at Surviving Infidelity. They love feeding that myth about a magical 'fog' to all their followers. They love to blame this 'fog' for the **** behavior of their cheaters because I think it makes THEM feel better that their cheater isn't really making these horrible decisions because they're under the influence of some evil 'fog' that's doing it for them. Would you rather believe your wife is choosing to cheat on you because she wants to and because some guy rocks her world, or would you rather think she's in some kind of "fog" that's causing her to make bad decisions she wouldn't normally make?

Like most of them, you'd probably choose the 'fog' explanation because it makes you feel better.

Do yourself a favor. If you ever ARE in this situation, don't make excuses for her unacceptable behavior by telling yourself she's in a 'fog' that's influencing her. It's her crap *CHOICES *and her crap *BEHAVIOR* and her complete *LACK* of a moral compass you'll need to blame, not that magic 'fog' BS's love to blame.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Would you rather believe your wife is choosing to cheat on you because she wants to and because some guy rocks her world, or would you rather think she's in some kind of "fog" that's causing her to make bad decisions she wouldn't normally make?


1.) Guy rocks her world. By this standard Affair Partners should ALWAYS be an improvement over the BH. Older, fatter, stupider, poorer, shorter, etc guys should not be in the mix, yet affairing-down seems to be quite common.

2.) There is some element of random spark at play, really not much different than what single people experience with "love at first sight." Once that spark is lit, then it becomes a matter of how strongly the WS can exercise impulse control. It's easy to extinguish that spark if they want to, much harder if they let that spark continue developing. Same damn thing with a pick-up/flirtation at the bar. Totally easy to shut it down right after the opening line. The more invested the recipient becomes in the seduction, the harder it becomes to end it, and so the deed is done, THEN regret arrives. Impulse control battles against those neurochemical flushes which produce the tingles.




> Like most of them, you'd probably choose the 'fog' explanation because it makes you feel better.


I don't think you can overlook all of the behavioral evidence supporting The Fog hypothesis. Sudden, turn on a dime, changes in behavior, one week your spouse is totally in love with you, the next week you're getting the ILYBINILWY speech. What is the catalyst? Some other person entered the picture and something in the WS's brain switched.



> Do yourself a favor. If you ever ARE in this situation, don't make excuses for her unacceptable behavior by telling yourself she's in a 'fog' that's influencing her. It's her crap *CHOICES *and her crap *BEHAVIOR* and her complete *LACK* of a moral compass you'll need to blame, not that magic 'fog' BS's love to blame.


Thanks for the advice, but I'll be making choices to enhance my own welfare. The CAUSE of her behavior is totally irrelevant to my decision because irrespective of the cause, her behavior would have changed what I got out of the marriage and how I look at her and there's no going back.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Personally, when I give advice to cut loose it means just that - cut loose and get out. I have no intention of promoting reconciliation and in fact warn against reconciliation due to the permanent damage when it comes to trust. 

However, despite my own views I've seen reconciliation happen here on CWI as well, and each time it follows a very narrow path. The wayward spouse accepts ALL responsibility, accepts ALL consequences, with the ball completely with the betrayed spouse to call it quits or not. It's not something I would ever do even if a spouse is that repentant, as trust is something I can't personally compromise but it is what it is.

You are correct to call it as a game of chicken if the 180 is 'played' as a means to repair the relationship. No, you can't do the 180 looking back to see if your wayward spouse follows. You do the 180 without looking back with the full intention of divorce and only if the wayward spouse makes the effort to chase after you and lay everything down at your feet - and I mean everything, then you may consider if you want to continue a relationship with something you can no longer trust.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Deleted. Missed premise.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> 2.) There is some element of random spark at play, really not much different than what single people experience with "love at first sight." Once that spark is lit, then it becomes a matter of how strongly the WS can exercise impulse control. It's easy to extinguish that spark if they want to, much harder if they let that spark continue developing. Same damn thing with a pick-up/flirtation at the bar. Totally easy to shut it down right after the opening line. The more invested the recipient becomes in the seduction, the harder it becomes to end it, and so the deed is done, THEN regret arrives. Impulse control battles against those neurochemical flushes which produce the tingles.


I think there is definitely limerence at play, the flood of hormones and and infatuation at what most people consider “love”. But this is what the cheater is after, those hormones and that “high” which is so easy to achieve with anyone, but isn’t realistic or sustainable. That said, they know what they are doing. They mindf#ck themselves into making it ok to abuse their spouse, but they know 100% at the end of the day exactly what they are doing. They just don’t give a sh!t. 

And in my case, he saw what the first discovery did to me, he saw the pain, the sadness the anger and the complete devastation of what he did... and he went and met her again! Can’t use the “I didn’t know it would hurt you that much!” Excuse on that. The only logical conclusion is that the cheater doesn’t actually give any sh!ts about anyone but themselves. Not even the affair partner, because having an affair is not something that has benefits, it’s destructive in every facet.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think the goal needs to shift to making the BS face reality that his marriage isn't working and let it go.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Deleted. Silly exercise.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@Lance Mannion , do you already have a couple books published, anything on Goodreads?

Not condemning, you're coming across as invested in learning facts, opinions, and human nature. 

I've got to say as a newer member you write very well.

Best,


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @Lance Mannion , do you already have a couple books published, anything on Goodreads?
> 
> Not condemning, you're coming across as invested in learning facts, opinions, and human nature.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'm more of a patent guy than a copyright guy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> My wife and I don't keep secrets from each other. Now I'm facing a quandary after digesting the knowledge dispensed in this forum. From what I gather, the advice given almost always depends on the WS being ignorant of the tactics being deployed against them. There's a lot of game-theory principles in play too. The Shock and Awe Effect, IMO, won't be nearly as effective if the WS knows all of the moves and tactics and recognizes them for what they are. Filing for D because one must be willing to lose the marriage in order to save the marriage can work to shock the WS back to reality, but it's often times not actually a fait accompli which results in divorce, when the WS accepts the filing at face value, is shocked, then a reconnection may result and the D is delayed or aborted.
> 
> However, if the WS knows the playbook, then the couple are engaged in a game of Chicken, who will flinch first? If both stick to their guns, then D happens. The shock effect never arrives.
> 
> ...


The above is 6 paragraphs of game playing and manipulation.

If I find out my spouse is cheating, I’m not playing games or trying to manipulate her into ending the affair and staying together with me.

I will file, pack my bags and leave because I would no longer want to be with her and I would move on with my own life leaving her to her own life.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> The above is 6 paragraphs of game playing and manipulation.
> 
> If I find out my spouse is cheating, I’m not playing games or trying to manipulate her into ending the affair and staying together with me.
> 
> I will file, pack my bags and leave because I would no longer want to be with her and I would move on with my own life leaving her to her own life.


Would you say that your behavior is what is typically seen in the confessions which are posted here?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> Would you say that your behavior is what is typically seen in the confessions which are posted here?



Definitely not. 

Most of the BH’s that post here are initially trying desperately to do the “Pick Me! Dance” to get their WW to end the affair and stay with them. 

Now to be fair, my marriage is already on pretty shaky ground and I have already reached the end of my rope on a number of things and finding out that she is involved elsewhere would just be the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

But if I had discovered an affair out of the blue 10 years ago, I probably would’ve have been Pick Me Dancing until my legs fell off. 

I think most BHs that post here, are in shock and are desperate to get things back to when they were good. Many think there is some kind of magic phrase or grand gesture that will make her fall madly back in love with him and forget all about OM. 

It’s not until they have been ground into the mud and kicked in the teeth a number of times or until they are on their 3rd or 4th DDay that they see the futility.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Definitely not.
> 
> Most of the BH’s that post here are initially trying desperately to do the “Pick Me! Dance” to get their WW to end the affair and stay with them.
> 
> ...


Right. And so we see in many of the stories which play out here, the newly arrived BH is in shock, he is being given advice, he ignores it because his marriage is so special, he has the children to think about (like no one else has children and no one else has ever wanted an intact family) and so he trusts his gut and does his own thing, follows his own plan, and his plan doesn't work, the situation escalates, and some guys still keep trusting their gut and then the marriage ends and later he comes back and confesses that he should have followed the advice he was given, now he sees the wisdom.

So what I'm saying is that much of the advice here, while it works, it mostly depends on the WS being ignorant of what the BS is putting into play. Some of this advice, like with Bagelon(?) (the fellow with the WAW who followed advice given here and slowly began to reengage his wife into the marriage) can result in saving the marriage if implemented before the WS crosses the Rubicon. What though if the WS knows the same principles as the BS and so knows his chess moves? What then?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> So what I'm saying is that much of the advice here, while it works, it mostly depends on the WS being ignorant of what the BS is putting into play. Some of this advice, like with Bagelon(?) (the fellow with the WAW who followed advice given here and slowly began to reengage his wife into the marriage) can result in saving the marriage if implemented before the WS crosses the Rubicon. What though if the WS knows the same principles as the BS and so knows his chess moves? What then?


You’re still going off the presumption that all of this is some kind of game to get someone back. It’s not. 

When we tell a BS to pack up and move on, it’s not to game the WS into coming back into the fold. It is to advise them it’s over and to actually move on.

I don’t care if my spouse has read every single post on her and has read every book and listened to every podcast. If she cheats I’m packing my stuff and moving on. It doesn’t matter what she knows or how she tries to play it.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> You’re still going off the presumption that all of this is some kind of game to get someone back. It’s not.
> 
> When we tell a BS to pack up and move on, it’s not to game the WS into coming back into the fold. It is to advise them it’s over and to actually move on.
> 
> I don’t care if my spouse has read every single post on her and has read every book and listened to every podcast. If she cheats I’m packing my stuff and moving on. It doesn’t matter what she knows or how she tries to play it.


Of course it's a game if you employ the moves BEFORE a line has been crossed. AFTER the line is crossed then the same moves are working to deliver you to a different outcome. People can clue into the red flags at any point after the first pops up. The line-crossing doesn't necessarily happen at the first red flag.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Right. And so we see in many of the stories which play out here, the newly arrived BH is in shock, he is being given advice, he ignores it because his marriage is so special, he has the children to think about (like no one else has children and no one else has ever wanted an intact family) and so he trusts his gut and does his own thing, follows his own plan, and his plan doesn't work, the situation escalates, and some guys still keep trusting their gut and then the marriage ends and later he comes back and confesses that he should have followed the advice he was given, now he sees the wisdom.
> 
> So what I'm saying is that much of the advice here, while it works, it mostly depends on the WS being ignorant of what the BS is putting into play. Some of this advice, like with Bagelon(?) (the fellow with the WAW who followed advice given here and slowly began to reengage his wife into the marriage) can result in saving the marriage if implemented before the WS crosses the Rubicon. What though if the WS knows the same principles as the BS and so knows his chess moves? What then?


Knows the chess moves?

What about leaving a cheater, period? No chess required.

I absolutely do not understand why someone would want to stay with a cheater. I absolutely can't relate. I have tried. And tried. And tried. 

I guess it's not in my DNA. I'd never stay with someone who was involved --- emotionally, physically, or both-- with another.


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