# Toddler sleep issues and marriage



## John Lee

We have a 3-yr-old and a baby due in July. 

We've always tried extra hard to establish good sleep routines and habits with the 3-year-old, but it has still been a source of some tension in our marriage. We have a regular, reasonable bedtime, we have a routine we stick to, and she sleeps in her own bed.

However, I am currently staying next to her until she falls asleep, and sometimes wind up having to go back into the room multiple times a night, either to briefly reassure her, or occasionally to stay for longer. 

The problem is that this takes away time for me to spend with my wife -- my wife falls asleep much earlier than I do, and if it takes my toddler a long time to fall asleep, my wife will be asleep by the time I get back to our bedroom.

We have tried "cry it out"/Ferber type methods multiple times. The first time we did it (around 6 months) it went on for almost a month and didn't really work. Later she learned to sleep on her own, but then it wore off again and she started wanting someone to be in the room with her.

Recently we tried to do "sleep-training" again, but it led to her just being more anxious about going to sleep, not wanting to go to bed at all, and coming into our room multiple times per night. We reached our current arrangement (me staying until the toddler falls asleep) because we felt it was very important to at least make sure our toddler already understands that she sleeps in her own room, in her own bed, when the new baby comes.

Has anyone had similar problems? Is this just a phase that's going to work itself out? Any tips? I just really miss the limited time with my wife every evening, and it makes me feel more distant from her -- it's really our main time together during the week.


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## unbelievable

I'd limits naps, increase their outdoor playtime, decrease stimulation in the evenings, implement a regular meal schedule, regular peaceful evening routine that naturally ends up with a tired youngun in bed. I'd quit sleeping beside the child. If the kid's crying ends up with mom sleeping beside them, that's rewarding behavior you don't want.

My stepson was about 3 when I married his mom. He'd been used to sleeping with her the first three years of his life. He cried a lot the first few nights but the drama eventually ended and he was just fine. Reward the behavior you like, don't reward what you don't want. Kids are high energy creatures, designed to run and play in the day and sleep at night. Get them outdoors and let them blow off all that steam. In my house, TV and all electronics went off at a certain hour, supper was a sit down affair at the same time, followed by baths, then time to get in jammies, then time for bedtime story, followed by prayers, then sleep. Most nights, they didn't get through story time before they were asleep. On the rare nights they were still awake when I kissed them "goodnight" and shut the door, they knew that all the crying in the world wouldn't change the fact that it was bedtime. Nobody persists in an activity that doesn't produce a reward, so it didn't take long for them to quit the crying and quit trying to figure out excuses to get out of bed. My house. I make the rules and kids follow them. They never win. Not tiny battles, not major battles. I'm "Dad" and they aren't. End of story.


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## batsociety

You're probably just going to have to ride this one out, dude. 

One of my sons (but not his twin brother, weirdly) was similar at this age. Couldn't fall asleep alone, freaked out if he woke up during the night (which was often). We tried a million and one things for him, and the only things that really worked was like, sleep deprivation (get him up early and don't let him nap - slept right through the night) and putting the TV in his room (I think the light+conversational noises on the shows calmed him). Obviously neither of these are terribly healthy options, so we abandoned them. 

Eventually, he just grew out of it. I think he needed some time to adjust to the changes that were happening in his life. That 2 - 4 age bracket is just crazy with progress. 

The best advice I could give you would be for you to just start your current routine earlier, before your wife even thinks about going to bed (that's assuming she's going to bed at a normal human time and not like, 8-9PMish). At least then you guys will have some time together before she wakes up again and needs more attention.


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## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> We have a 3-yr-old and a baby due in July.
> 
> We've always tried extra hard to establish good sleep routines and habits with the 3-year-old, but it has still been a source of some tension in our marriage. We have a regular, reasonable bedtime, we have a routine we stick to, and she sleeps in her own bed.
> 
> However, I am currently staying next to her until she falls asleep, and sometimes wind up having to go back into the room multiple times a night, either to briefly reassure her, or occasionally to stay for longer.
> 
> The problem is that this takes away time for me to spend with my wife -- my wife falls asleep much earlier than I do, and if it takes my toddler a long time to fall asleep, my wife will be asleep by the time I get back to our bedroom.
> 
> We have tried *"cry it out"/Ferber* type methods multiple times. The first time we did it (around 6 months) it went on for almost a month and didn't really work.


Cry it out is not really Ferber's main point. Many people don't really know what Ferber was on about. They just associate crying with Ferber. He had a very specific technique for solving a very specific problem, one which your toddler very well may have. Sleep association. You should read the first several chapters of the book. It is a very easy read.


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## NobodySpecial

PLEASE read Ferber's books on the section on sleep association before you start sleep deprivation tactics. (PLease please please please)

Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems: New, Revised, and Expanded Edition: Richard Ferber: 9780743201636: Amazon.com: Books

I was a child care provider for some kids whose solution to sleep problems was to just keep their kids up until they dropped. These kids were a nightmare. They had a hard time staying awake all day. They were cranky.They were discipline problems. They had more trouble learning. 

Sleep is perfectly normal but for some reason scares parents. They have images of scared little babes needing Mommy and Daddy every minute. They don't. They are remarkably resilient creatures. They do, however, need sleep. Toddlers are old enough to have established habits. And sometimes habits need to be changed. Changing habits is hard even on grown ups. Of course it is hard for little kids. But it is a short term hard.

Good luck.


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## Anonymous07

You can also try other things that might work for your family. 

I have a friend who put her daughter's mattress on the floor in their room, so she didn't have to fight her all the time on sleep. It was less stressful for all involved and then within the year, as she was older and now more used to having a sibling, it was an easier transition to have her sleep in her own room again. 

You can also try changing her nap schedule and limiting it to no more than 2 hours. You can try something like this: Cloud B Tranquil Turtle Night Light | BabiesRUs

There are a lot of changes going on in her life right now and there are different ways to go about handling the situation. You just have to find out what will work best for all involved in your family.


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## SecondTime'Round

batsociety said:


> You're probably just going to have to ride this one out, dude.
> 
> One of my sons (but not his twin brother, weirdly) was similar at this age. Couldn't fall asleep alone, freaked out if he woke up during the night (which was often). We tried a million and one things for him, and the only things that really worked was like, sleep deprivation (get him up early and don't let him nap - slept right through the night) and putting the TV in his room (I think the light+conversational noises on the shows calmed him). Obviously neither of these are terribly healthy options, so we abandoned them.
> 
> Eventually, he just grew out of it. I think he needed some time to adjust to the changes that were happening in his life. That 2 - 4 age bracket is just crazy with progress.
> 
> The best advice I could give you would be for you to just start your current routine earlier, before your wife even thinks about going to bed (that's assuming she's going to bed at a normal human time and not like, 8-9PMish). At least then you guys will have some time together before she wakes up again and needs more attention.


I agree with starting earlier. When my kids were that age, their natural bed time, both of them, (not twins) was 6:30 PM! We didn't force that on either of them, but it did work since often we'd be able to have dinner after their bedtime. 

With that said, my daughter (older child) was like your 3 year old. She didn't sleep all night in her bed, consistently, until she was 4. She mainly would come into our bed, and after a while i just got tired of taking her back to her own bed. Her little brother was nothing like that and consistently slept all night as soon as he was weaned from breastfeeding around 7 months (for medical reasons, no flames for not continuing to a year please lol). All kids are different! Even with her sleep issues she was our easy baby/toddler and he was our super hard one. 

There's also the option of putting her back in a crib with a crib tent.....we had one for my son.


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## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> PLEASE read Ferber's books on the section on sleep association before you start sleep deprivation tactics. (PLease please please please)
> 
> Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems: New, Revised, and Expanded Edition: Richard Ferber: 9780743201636: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> I was a child care provider for some kids whose solution to sleep problems was to just keep their kids up until they dropped. These kids were a nightmare. They had a hard time staying awake all day. They were cranky.They were discipline problems. They had more trouble learning.
> 
> Sleep is perfectly normal but for some reason scares parents. They have images of scared little babes needing Mommy and Daddy every minute. They don't. They are remarkably resilient creatures. They do, however, need sleep. Toddlers are old enough to have established habits. And sometimes habits need to be changed. Changing habits is hard even on grown ups. Of course it is hard for little kids. But it is a short term hard.
> 
> Good luck.


I've read Ferber's book backwards and forwards. Some of the advice as been useful. We keep regular naps and reasonable bedtimes and certainly do not try to keep our child up until she drops. Definitely believe that sleep begets sleep. But at the same time so much of what the book says is contradictory. In fact the staying next to her started from Ferber's own advice about toddler sleep anxiety. The problem is it doesn't work as advertised -- Ferber makes it sound like you do it for a few weeks and the anxiety goes away, but that hasn't been the case.


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## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> I've read Ferber's book backwards and forwards. Some of the advice as been useful. We keep regular naps and reasonable bedtimes and certainly do not try to keep our child up until she drops. Definitely believe that sleep begets sleep. But at the same time so much of what the book says is contradictory. In fact the staying next to her started from Ferber's own advice about toddler sleep anxiety. The problem is it doesn't work as advertised -- Ferber makes it sound like you do it for a few weeks and the anxiety goes away, but that hasn't been the case.


Unless his advise has changed in recent years, he does not even speak about anxiety. Anxiety around sleep is externally created. He speaks of sleep associations. He did not advise staying with your child at all. He advise a short reassurance followed by leaving in incrementally larger intervals. Maybe his advise has changed in recent years.


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## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> Unless his advise has changed in recent years, he does not even speak about anxiety. Anxiety around sleep is externally created. He speaks of sleep associations. He did not advise staying with your child at all. He advise a short reassurance followed by leaving in incrementally larger intervals. Maybe his advise has changed in recent years.


You clearly didn't read the whole book.


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## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> You clearly didn't read the whole book.


Only like 8 times.


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## John Lee

NobodySpecial said:


> Only like 8 times.


well it's chapter 7 in my copy . But anyway, we did the "ferber method" with the graduated intervals of time, multiple times, so I know what it's about, and I know the sleep associations stuff too, but we're having a different problem. I also didn't find the "ferber method" as effective as he made it out to be -- the first time around it took way way longer than it was supposed to (a month) to set in. It was a painful month. I think kids are not all the same and the same work doesn't work with all of them.


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## scatty

I would reassure her a little less each time. Keep lights off. 

If she comes to your bed, be silent and put her back to bed. I had to do this every night for months for my youngest, so I feel your pain.

Another idea is that you can let her pick out some of those wall stickers to decorate her room and tell her it is her special place and no adults are allowed in after her bedtime. 

My first two slept through the night at 2 weeks and 3 weeks, so I lucked out, but that third one...oh boy. Good luck!


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## Anon Pink

My dad was way ahead of his time as a father in the 50's. He was hands on and nurturingly affectionate. When I became a mother he gave me the best advice ever!

"*Read everything the experts have to say, but follow your heart when it comes to your kids for no one loves them so well as you."
*

My youngest, unlike her older siblings, was the WORST sleeper EVER! From day one she was a temperamental light sleeper and even in deep sleep knew if an acceptable (first me only then my H or me only) were holding her, knew if she was being put into the crib, knew when we slowly slowly slowly backed out of her room. I have never been able to allow them to cry it out. I believe babies, like all humans, have varrying needs for touch and some need it more while others need it less. So I never ever allowed them to cry it out.

Having said all that, she was 8 before we finally got her to go to sleep in her own bed following 45 minute story time. Prior to that she slept in my bed with me and once my H came to bed he would slowly and carefully take her to her bed. And yes, it sucked!

However, from age 11 onward, she was totally independent with bed time. I never have to remind her to go to bed, ever. She goes on her own and usually earlier than I would insist. In fact sometimes I think she's on the computer only to discover she is sound asleep for the night.

There is no simple easy way to get a child into their own bed, alone, at a decent hour, especially if your child doesn't want to be away from you. They need enough time with you and that's all there is to it. Maybe falling asleep next to your wife in your bed will work, maybe it won't. Sometimes as parents we have to make decisions that are best for our kids and really bite for us.

Sorry...


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## jld

Our kids slept with us until they did not want to anymore. Makes it so much easier, all around. And eventually they all become ready to sleep independently.

When we had our second, we bought a king size bed. Might want to consider that, if you do not already have one.


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## PBear

jld said:


> Our kids slept with us until they did not want to anymore. Makes it so much easier, all around. And eventually they all become ready to sleep independently.
> 
> When we had our second, we bought a king size bed. Might want to consider that, if you do not already have one.


How was the intimacy in your marriage during that time? And I ask that sincerely, not trying to be an ass. 

C


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## jld

PBear said:


> How was the intimacy in your marriage during that time? And I ask that sincerely, not trying to be an ass.
> 
> C


Fine. My husband never complained. There are other rooms, you know?


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## NobodySpecial

John Lee said:


> well it's chapter 7 in my copy . But anyway, we did the "ferber method" with the graduated intervals of time, multiple times, so I know what it's about, and I know the sleep associations stuff too, but we're having a different problem.


It is possible that I don't remember the anxiety stuff since it is not what was affecting our family at the time.



> I also didn't find the "ferber method" as effective as he made it out to be -- the first time around it took way way longer than it was supposed to (a month) to set in. It was a painful month. I think kids are not all the same and the same work doesn't work with all of them.


Of all the problems that I remember the checking at intervals was only applied to the sleep association one. I guess I might not be remembering as well as I thought.


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## Anonymous07

jld said:


> Our kids slept with us until they did not want to anymore. Makes it so much easier, all around. And eventually they all become ready to sleep independently.
> 
> When we had our second, we bought a king size bed. Might want to consider that, if you do not already have one.


I know co-sleeping works for many people(many of my friends cosleep with their children), but it never worked for my family, especially with my wild son. We tried it and it failed miserably, but we found other ways that worked. 

Our son started off in the rock'n play sleeper next to our bed as an infant, then we moved him to his crib(in his room) at around 5 months old. That wasn't working, so we moved him back in to our room with his crib in our room. We side carred the crib to our bed for a while(cheaper than buying a bigger bed, and each have your own space), then moved it a little farther away again after some months with the rail back on. Now he sleeps well in his own room. 

Every child is so different. My son never slept through the night until he was over a year old and trust me we tried everything. He needed the extra cuddles and closeness, which is why we just kept him in our room. My good friend's baby was sleeping through the night at 3 months old and he has never had an issue sleeping in his own room. 

It's a lot of trial and error to just find what works best for your family. If what you are doing now is not working, try something else.


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## luvinhim

my response will not be the popular one, but here goes.

When my children reached the age of 3 and I truly felt they
knew it was time to go to bed and sleep. i would give baths, brush teeth, tell story and send to bed. If they got up I would send them back with a warning that they will be punished for not going to bed.

If they got up again, i gave them a spanking and sent them to bed. They learned that when it is time to go to bed, it is time to go to bed.

I would always tell them, you do not have to fall asleep right away, you may even have a book for a while, but you MUST go to bed. Proble solved.

I believe parents negotiate with toddler and children too much.

Now if there truly is a problem. The child is truly afraid or sick then I would let them lay with me until they fell to sleep and off to their own beds to spend the duration of the night there.


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## turnera

Just watch SuperNanny. She deals with this with nearly every single family and they always seem to be able to 'get it' - in one or two nights.


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## Anon Pink

luvinhim said:


> my response will not be the popular one, but here goes.
> 
> When my children reached the age of 3 and I truly felt they
> knew it was time to go to bed and sleep. i would give baths, brush teeth, tell story and send to bed. If they got up I would send them back with a warning that they will be punished for not going to bed.
> 
> *If they got up again, i gave them a spanking and sent them to bed. *They learned that when it is time to go to bed, it is time to go to bed.
> 
> I would always tell them, you do not have to fall asleep right away, you may even have a book for a while, but you MUST go to bed. Proble solved.
> 
> I believe parents negotiate with toddler and children too much.
> 
> Now if there truly is a problem. The child is truly afraid or sick then I would let them lay with me until they fell to sleep and off to their own beds to spend the duration of the night there.



You're right, absolutely disagree with spanking a young child for needing more time with mom or dad. You are actually encouraging the development of fears when the only time you allow extra time is when they have fears. But maybe you can spank that out of them too.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

My daughter is just now getting past her sleep issues. I go in with her for about 30-45 minutes and then she'll sleep on her own the whole night. My son never had a problem. Some kids just need a little extra but they will grow out of it. I don't think any one method over the other is going to make a difference. They'll do it when they are ready.
I would just wait it out and be patient. At that age I was still co-sleeping which helped me get enough sleep.
Is there other times in the day you could have some downtime with your wife?


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## luvinhim

Anon Pink said:


> You're right, absolutely disagree with spanking a young child for needing more time with mom or dad. You are actually encouraging the development of fears when the only time you allow extra time is when they have fears. But maybe you can spank that out of them too.


nope, that did not happen. children are so slick. they will play you like a slot machine in las vegas just to see how far they can go.

i never abused my children. they know that i love them, they feel safe with me. children like boundaries and they like them to be enforced. makes them secure.

now if my children were truly afraid, scared, i let them sleep with me and dad. we would put up tents and even make if fun.

i believe in loving discipline always


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## Anon Pink

My goodness you give a lot of credit for manipulative sophistication for a 3 year old. This in itself is highly troubling. Do you feel that your children take advantage of you on purpose? Do you feel they have a sinister agenda against you?


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## luvinhim

Anon Pink said:


> My goodness you give a lot of credit for manipulative sophistication for a 3 year old. This in itself is highly troubling. Do you feel that your children take advantage of you on purpose? Do you feel they have a sinister agenda against you?


Again, children are manipulative, they really are. They are smarter and more resilent that parents want to admit. They know that crying will get them certain things and yes a 3 year old is capable of it.

Im not saying all children are manipulative but most are. I have worked with small children for over 20 years. I have been a volunteer counselor in a children's church ministry and I can tell
you some stories that are true. 

Parents can be punked out by their children. I had this one kid who would pull his mothers hair all the time. She seem helpless to stop his antics.

Well he was assigned to my group and tried to pull my hair. I told him in a firm loving authoritative voice that he will never pull my hair again, or there will be consequences to his behavior.
He was a mere 4 years old. Guess what. He never pulled my hair again.

He like boundaries that I gave him and he abided by the rules. 

Needless to say he continued pulling his mothers hair because she allowed it, and he knew she would accept his behavior.


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## ConanHub

I raised two little barbarian boys. Spanking was on the menu. They are splendidly civilized men today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

luvinhim said:


> Again, children are manipulative, they really are. They are smarter and more resilent that parents want to admit. They know that crying will get them certain things and yes a 3 year old is capable of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk-OfmmRaqs


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## Anonymous07

luvinhim said:


> He like boundaries that I gave him and he abided by the rules.
> 
> Needless to say he continued pulling his mothers hair because she allowed it, and he knew she would accept his behavior.


Boundaries are different than spanking a child for waking up at night. I can never imagine punishing my child, especially with spanking them, for waking up and coming to me. It's not manipulation, it's looking for a need to be met. They are children, not miniature adults. 

I'm actually not necessarily against spanking, but think it should be done in a healthy manner. I can understand spanking a child for running into the street, as they learn to associate the danger of running into the street with a spank, but do not believe in spanking a child for coming to me for comfort. I find that to be sad. 

My son woke up twice last night and I would never punish him for it. Sometimes he just needs that extra time/cuddles to feel comfortable and go back to sleep.


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## Blossom Leigh

I'm pretty adept at reading when my son needs comfort and when he is playing me. I will even tell him "don't manipulate me" if I sense he is "greasing the skids" to get away with something. So, no, it is not always about needing comfort. They do play around with boundaries. Paying attention is wise. I focus on managing the behavior that shows up. We too were co-sleepers and he just gravitated to his own room on his own. We talked about how cool his room was and that it was his very own and he became excited about sleeping in there. Makes him feel like a big boy.


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## Anon Pink

You can wrap up your spanking of a 3 year old for getting out of bed anyway you want but the fact remains that it is inappropriate to spank a 3 year old, period! Boundaries can be set without resorting to physical violence. Consequences can be placed without threats of physical violence. 

Any parent who can't tell the difference between a real cry and fake cry needs to spend more time with their child!

*Spanking is for lazy parents who don't know how to deliver effective behavior modification and appropriate consequences, or for parents who don't understand developmental stages and cognitive development.*

So lay it on me, tell me a scenario in which spanking a child for getting out of bed is appropriate and I can tell you several ways of dealing with it without spanking!


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## John Lee

So a good update: today was her 3rd birthday party, and she got herself pretty tired out. It also happened that we had folded up the mat I usually stay on (because of the party). So I had the idea that I would use the situation to start transitioning to her sleeping by herself. I told her in advance what was going to happen: I'd stay with her and tell her a story, and I'd sit with her for a bit after, but then I'd have to go to the other room. I'd come back if she needed me, but I wasn't going to stay. 

I also told her a story about a girl who was afraid to go to sleep because she thought her parents wouldn't come back, but then every time she cried she heard them call out and realized they were still in the house. And then in the morning they were still there.

Anyway, this worked! When it was time to go to sleep, she said "Ok daddy" and didn't cry! She did call me to come back to give her water, and I did, but then again she didn't cry when I left. So far so good at least, we'll see if it keeps up.


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## John Lee

Night 2 she put up a little more resistance, but it basically went ok. I decided to take the gentle-but-firm approach. I humored her but did not give in on actually staying in the room. She cried for a couple of mins but then calmed down and ultimately fell asleep on her own.


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## turnera

Yep. Just like SuperNanny!


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## John Lee

Just call me Mr. Supernanny then.


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## John Lee

So night #4 and she's still resisting a bit. She seems genuinely nervous about going to bed without me, so I just keep reassuring her but also insisting on leaving the room before she falls asleep. Hopefully soon it will just be second nature to her.


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## turnera

Just keep loving on her and above all, be consistent. The one key rule is that mommy/daddy make the rules. They want you to make the rules so they feel safe and secure. It'll work out.


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