# Anyone with experience about Borderline Personality Disorder?



## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

4.5 years ago my family suffered a terrible blow with some devastating news about something that happened to his son from his first marriage. My husband essentially shut down and then started lashing out at myself and my teenage daughter from my first marriage. He has since admitted that he lashes out at her because she's "normal" and now his son is not. Two years went by and then I realized that anger and lashing out can be a symptom of depression. Took him to the doctor and he was diagnosed, given meds and advised to get counseling. He lied and made excuses about taking the meds properly, put off counseling with all kinds of interesting lies and excuses and then this past summer, I had enough. 

I told him his illness was his, and not mine. I had made excuses and lived on eggshells for years and whether or not he treated his illness properly was his choice. However, I would no longer tolerate the symptoms being directed my way or towards the kids. Thought there was progress...he made an apointment to get back into counseling and straightened out his meds.

Yet, he still isn't quite "right". He has had several of what I call "episodes" (disproportionate anger that he's almost obsessive about, sometimes for days) and simply cannot take responsibility for it. Always excuses. Talking to a coworker who is also a counselor, she brought up Borderline Personality Disorder and I began researching it. It actually fits more than depression, but my husband won't consider getting checked out for it. Says the doctor and counselor both think he's "doing fine" and even want to scale back his meds. In themeantime, things are terribly tense. The latest episode (which btw, occur probably every 3- 8 weeks at least for the past 4 years) was bad enough to make me feel the need to flee the house at 1:30 in the morning. I asked him to stay away (he has places to stay and I'm here with the kids) until we could see a counselor together next week to make some sense of it, and he has chosen to not respect that and came home this past week. I put some rules on the table, and a suggestion that we take all expectations of each other off the table and make one request of each other to avoid all of the resentments of past hurts. It was a success, but everything I said or did was met with the assumption it was somehow against him and a "dig" came my way. 

I have barely scratched the surface here, but I really want him to see a psychiatrist to see about the BPD. I don't know anyone with experience with this illness and would like to find out anything I can (beyond what I've been able to Google, that is). 

I have been reading these boards like crazy since finding my way here, and hope that someone can help. I don't want to lose my marriage, but I'm in danger of losing my daughter if I don't take a stand, and have begun losing myself, it seems like.


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## manilikefuff (Nov 17, 2010)

Hiya, I can give abit of advice.. though I will point out I could be competly wrong, Like you said, You've mearly scratched the surface with details.. But in 1998 my mum was diagnosed with Phycotic depression and had been on tablets since.. but me and my brother knew she wasnt "quite right".. though the doctors thought she was fine (But they've obviously only known her for a couple of weeks that she was in the hospital so they never know when she's better) ... She has never stuck to her tablets, she'll make up any excuse she can so that she doesnt have to take her meds and she's always having her episodes in which she ends up back in hospital, The last one (about a month ago) included her getting extreamly violent with my brother and trying to throw a boiled kettle at him(she had convinced herself he was the devil), before that she got very aggresive towards me and kicked me out of the house (I was 15) I moved back in about 6 months later but then when I was 18 she stopped taking them again and she changed competly, she tried kicking me out of the house (bearing in mind I wasnt even living with her then) and accused me of stealing £200 out of her bank, (She never has any money in her bank because she has an addiction to buying blessed jewellry from tibet) which may seem stupid but I think it might be a symptom, she genuinly thinks these 3.99 peices of fake gold are helping her, she is buying hundereds of them and then wondering where all her money goes.

...Back to my original point though, when she went to the hospital about a month ago (she was there for 3 weeks, but thought she was in there for months, does your partner get confusedd about times?).. they actually discovered she has quite a serious condition of phycotic skitsofrenia (Though they have still let her leave the hospital because they find that keeping her somewhere like that will only make her worse) 

You may want to get onto this quite soon if its the same thing.. 

Just a few things about my mum that might be similar,

-She is Very forgettful
-Shes extreamly over emotional, which does then lead to anger
-Her anger gets over the top if she doesnt get her own way, eg My mum has to fetch her own medication personally but she tried to send my brother, he went anyway but didnt get given the prescription obviously, to which she then went into my brothers old room and threw EVERYTHING out of the window that belonged to him, threw him out of the house whilst throwing things at him and told everyone that he woudnt go to the doctors for her.
- Simple things like not having any cigerettes will set her off, she'll automatically assume somebody has stolen them from her, and it doesnt even have to be cigarettes, if she just misplaces something she will blame anyone but herself..
- She mimics aswell, Im currently pregnant and obviously get backache, and I rock slightly when Im sitting down because it eases the bottom of my back, Just before she went into hospital she came round my house when I was doing this (I tend not to do it in public!!) and she started copying off me, The next day is when I find out she went into hospital and when I went in to speak to the doctor he was onabout that my mum had been saying that she is pregnant, then when they told her she wasnt she said it was with spirit babies..

I understand your partner probably wont say this, but maybe mimic smaller things? if someone is abit ill or if someone has an unusual physical tick? 

Good luck either way I really hope things get better and I really hope your partner gets better too


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Michelle, I would be glad to discuss BPD with you if you are still around. How long have you been married and how old is your H? I ask because BPD traits are something that you should have started seeing after about six months, i.e., after the honeymoon period started fading. BPD is believed to be firmly in place by the age of five and usually is established by three or four. The traits show strongly about age 16 when the person is starting to date and form relationships outside the home. Although the traits do get worse with added stress, I have never heard of them manifesting suddenly in midlife due to a trauma like losing a son.

In your other thread, you mention him getting upset about a trash bag not being set within a few inches of the exact spot he wants it on in the garage. That level of obsession could be a symptom of something else that accompanies BPD but it does not sound like a bevavior that BPD itself would cause. BPD rages typically arise from an action or comment that triggers the fear of abandonment or engulfment -- or from a comment that the BPDer misperceives to be demeaning or insulting. 

Another possibility is a head injury which can cause angry outbursts. Did your H suffer a blow to the head (e.g., a fall or auto accident) about 4 and a half years ago? Incidentally, I am not a psychologist but, rather, a man who lived for 15 years with a BPDer.


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## argentina (Nov 29, 2008)

Michelle, I reckon I have just about investigated every psychological disorder there is, trying to find some diagnosis for my husband. You comments about disproportionate anger and him perceiving your comments in the wrong way sounds exactly like my husband. You might like to read my post "Is it more than depression". 
It feels very lonely when you are living with someone who is "just not normal" but you haven't really got a true diagnosis
My husband tries to use recent events as the excuse for his behaviour, but the truth is that I believe it stems from way back before I even met him. The situation with your husband's son may just have been the "icing on the cake" to tip him over the edge psychologically.
He may not be ready to go forward with further investigation, but I reckon you should consider seeing a counsellor for your own peace of mind. I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with you, but it can be a big help to have someone "neutral" to talk to who can help put it into perspective.


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## 76Trombones (Jun 2, 2010)

Borderline personality disorder is something that arises from childhood. It is essentially maladaptive coping mechanisms that are developed from childhood to deal with things that are going on (abuse, neglectful parents, not being taught healthy coping mechanisms as a child, etc). If your husband had this then he would have been like that since day one. And you would have really known about it - people with this disorder are really, really hard to live with! Their maladaptive coping mechanisms are deeply ingrained into their personality and will be there for life if they do not receive treatment.

It sounds like your hubby's behaviour relates to the trauma of what happened to his son. He definitely sounds like he has not come to terms with what happened, and these things he is saying/doing are reactive actions. I was thinking maybe he has not gone through the grieving process and may benefit from seeing a therapist to do this, and to talk out and deal with what has happened. If the hurt sits there and festers, it often comes out in negative ways, like how he is acting out as you described.

Also, seeing a psychiatrist is not a good idea because psychiatry deals exclusively with medication. Medication does not cure the root cause, it just stifles the symptoms. It would be much better if your husband were to go to a therapist and get in there and deal with the root cause.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

Haven't been back here in awhile, and I am going to try to answer some of the questions posed.

Uptown, I know that normally bpd shows itself earlier than with what it did with my husband. But, I think he could be what I've seen termed "high functioning" which means there were small things in his personality that were a little bit "off" but he was able to function quite well until he became depressed, and then he reverted to what he "knew" from his own childhood...which was lashing out from his own Dad (one example...my husband was beaten so badly by his Dad, and had his head smashed onto the pavement at age 13 that he was hospitalized and child welfare authorities became involved). Since the onset of his depression (which I believe also triggered the bpd tendencies that I've seen), it's like a vicious circle...he acts out because he feels bad, then he feels guilty for what he says or does while he has raged which further drops his self esteem and makes the next blow up easier to occur. 

I have since learned a LOT about my own part in the "disfunctional dance" and have made some changes including learning how to validate his feelings (even if I don't agree with the reasons behind them) and being stronger about my own boundaries in relation to what I will and will not allow myself to be subjected to. But I'm well aware that my own changes won't help him other than maybe helping things not escalate like they have. 

So, I do think if not full blown bpd, I think he's exhibiting definite traits. He exhibits or has exhibited 7 of the 9 traits and only 5 are required for a diagnosis. When he was "high functioning" he exhibited only 4 or 5.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Michelle, thanks so much for returning to give us an update. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of reading about BPD and know what traits to look for. In my case, I lived with my BPD exW for 15 years. I spent a small fortune sending her to 6 different psychologists in weekly visits throughout that whole period. All to no avail. I wish you much better luck. Because his progress (if any) will be totally out of your control, you will have to deal with terrible feelings of helplessness -- which is very painful for caregivers like us. And then there is the extreme difficulty of determining whether his therapy is having any effect whatsoever. That said, I wish the best for both of you.


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

That's exactly what I've been doing...reading a TON on BPD and what I can do to help. I understand that it's not something that can be easily "cured" without a huge commitment on his part, and he is opening the doors at this point, which I appreciate. We had 2 marriage counseling apointments in the past month, and in the 2nd, the counselor zeroed in on his inability to regulate his emotions and spoke to him about his emotions being HIS and not my or anyone else's "fault". I think that was hard for him to hear.

At the same time, in my reading, and with the counselor I was seeing about my own resentments, I've learned the importance of taking better care of myself, and disengaging enough to be able to not be so affected by his ups and downs. It's working, which is good. I'm still plagued by resentments, but not as much, and I'm learning about something called "radical acceptance" which is also taking some of the pressure off me. 

But the biggest help I think is working on validating his emotions (I had absolutely been invalidating because I was so caught up in what was BEHIND the emotions). He doesn't dissolve into rages as much now because I am doing better at this. And I expect to get more help from the marriage counselor when we go back next week. 

Thanks for your reply once again. It's nice to talk to someone who understands.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Michelle, normally I recommend against going to marriage counselors because effective therapy requires a clinical psychologist with specialized skill in treating this illness. They cannot cure it but they can teach him the skills of self soothing and how to better manage his emotions and challenge his feelings before acting on them. Until he gets those skills -- a process that may require several years before you see a substantial difference -- learning the skills of better communication may only make him better at trying to manipulate you.

That said, you nonetheless may have made a wise choice in starting with the MC if she is successful in persuading him to begin weekly therapy with a psychologist. Also, I am impressed with your MC for telling you about validating his feelings -- the only thing I've ever heard that the Non partner can do to help at all.

As to the ups and downs, BPD rages are event triggered and thus typically start within 10 seconds when you say or do some innocuous thing that triggers his engulfment fear or abandonment fear. They start so quickly because you don't have to create the anger. It has been lying there since early childhood and only needs a trigger. The tantrums typically last 5 hours and rarely as long as 36 hours.

In contrast, the ups and downs caused by bipolar typically take two weeks to form (not ten seconds) and last several weeks (not five hours). Moreover, bipolar moods rarely occur more often than 4 times a year, which is considered "rapid cycling." As you know well, BPD tantrums can easily occur that frequently in two days. I mention this because these two illnesses sometimes co-occur in individuals, leading physicians to confuse the two. My foster son has bipolar and my exW has BPD. 

If you ever feel a need for emotional support from someone who has been there and done that, please feel free to PM me or return to this thread. In addition, you may want to check out the nine message boards at BPDfamily.com, which is the largest and most active forum targeted solely to the Non partners of BPDers. The board that may be most helpful to you is the "Staying" one where there are many folks who have chosen to stay with their sick partner. Not surprisingly, the "Undecided" and "Leaving" boards are far more active. Again, best wishes. Please be sure to take care of yourself -- a task that is difficult for us caregivers.


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## kgregory1011 (Dec 2, 2010)

My husband has BPD,depression and anxiety.
My husband and I initially went to marriage counselling and over 3 months of going weekly our situation got worse. As his "bandaids" starting being removed he lashed out on me (nothing physical) but really nasty, moody and distant. He also started drinking. My mood depended on his mood, if he was happy I was happy etc .. 
He started seeing a psychiatrist in December, she change his meds and added a new one. 
We have been separated for a month now. He plans on living alone, He desires to live alone, this is where he is happy.
I continue to live day by day, I have so much hurt and pain. I did everything for this man. I was his rock. I wanted to be there for him. Unfortunately his desire to be alone outweighs his want to be with me. This is what hurts me the most. That is the part I will never understand. How can someone who loves me so much let me go? 
There are so many things to think about when you are with someone that has a mental illness. Will they every be "stable", will they work through it? I wonder these things daily. I truly miss him with all my heart, I miss the man I married. I do not miss this nasty, mean, unemotional and numb individual who is my husband today. I am starting to see that I deserve more than this. Why I am sitting at home crying it hurts that he is livinng his life like he always has. Good luck


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

KG, thanks so much for your update. I've been following your story with much interest ever since we shared experiences in your 12/16 thread.


> Unfortunately his desire to be alone outweighs his want to be with me. This is what hurts me the most. That is the part I will never understand. How can someone who loves me so much let me go?


If he has strong BPD traits, he is always in a lose-lose situation. He will be in pain both with you and without you, but for two different reasons. When he is alone, he is unhappy because he likely has little sense of who he really is. His self image is so unstable that he finds himself wanting to do one thing one week and then switch to completely different goals two weeks later. This is why you've seen him buy an expensive item, express great joy over using it for a week or two, and then bury it in the garage. 

Moreover, when he is in a room by himself, he is utterly alone in a way you've not experienced since the age of three. Think about it. Because he has little idea of who he is, he doesn't even have "himself" to keep him company. This is why BPDers (those with strong BPD traits) hate to be alone. They seek out a person with a strong self image who will ground them and help provide a sense of direction.

Yet, as soon as that happens and the honeymoon infatuation passes, they start feeling controlled and dominated. Having a weak self image, they also feel like they are not "whole" people -- as though they are merging into the mate's strong personality. It can be so frightening that it feels like one is evaporating into thin air. This outcome, then, is why BPDers are said to have a strong fear of engulfment resulting from intimacy. And this is why the worst rages and tantrums often follow within hours of the very best nights and weekends they ever had with their spouses. To get breathing room, BPDer push their spouses away by creating angry arguments out of thin air.

The result of this paradox, of course, is that a BPDer will push you away when the fear of engulfment becomes too strong and then pull you back later as the fear of abandonment becomes too intense when he is alone. Hence, the push-away and pull-back cycle is a hallmark of BPD traits. 

The twin fears of engulfment and abandonment create these powerful conflicted feelings within your H. And, due to his illness, he cannot tolerate being in touch with both of them at the same time (as you or I would be able to do). He therefore confronts only one set of feelings at a time, blocking off the other set with the splitting defense. With my BPD exW, for example, I watched her flip back and forth hundreds of times over 15 years. 

I mistakenly thought it would continue forever. I was wrong. What typically happens to us caregivers who stay with them long enough is that the BPDer grows increasingly resentful each year for our inability to fix them or make them happy. A therapist stated that this is why BPD relationships typically last 18 months (when the Non partner walks out) or 15 years (when the BPDer walks out).


kgregory1011 said:


> Why I am sitting at home crying it hurts that he is living his life like he always has.


Appearances can be very deceiving. You are the one doing the crying because you have the emotional strength and stability to tolerate being in close touch with your feelings. This means you will be the one to heal fairly quickly. In contrast, a BPDer husband often may be too fragile to tolerate the intense pain and shame of being in touch with those feelings. During such periods, he will draw upon the only emotional defenses available to him. As a BPDer, he likely is not skilled in the mature defenses. Instead, he will draw on the primitive emotional defenses available to ever child. 

One of these is splitting, wherein he can hold back the tears by painting you black and hating you. This is very effective at blocking the pain because it is done subconsciously, allowing his conscious mind to actually believe it for an extended period. There likely will be other periods, however, when he gets so depressed that he allows himself to explore the suppressed feelings too -- at which time he will become a crying, quivering heap on the floor. Remember, you can walk away from this pernicious illness. He cannot.


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## kgregory1011 (Dec 2, 2010)

Thank you for all that great information.

I found out today that my husband had joined "adult friend finder" he stated that he joined out of curiousity. He says he doesn't know why he does these types of things, I always get the generic answer "I dont know". 

Tonight was my breaking point. I can't go back. I am so hurt. His last text to me was so unemotional ..."

"you know, I have felt this way for years. I thought I could change with you. I could'nt. Im sorry" 

He states that he doesn't mean to hurt me, however he continues to sabotage and cause me pain. My heart is a mess..


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## Threetimesalady (Dec 22, 2010)

kgregory1011 said:


> Thank you for all that great information.
> 
> I found out today that my husband had joined "adult friend finder" he stated that he joined out of curiousity. He says he doesn't know why he does these types of things, I always get the generic answer "I dont know".
> 
> ...


Hi kgregory: I have worked with this problem with people for the last few years...Please understand, he can't help himself...Even if he is medicated and seems normal, chances are that he will return to this place that he finds and feels complete...It's not that he doesn't love you....It's that he doesn't know how to love you....You both live in a different world...

Try to move on and find peace...I send you my best wishes....Take care...

Caroline


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Threetimesalady said:


> It's not that he doesn't love you....It's that he doesn't know how to love you....You both live in a different world...


Nice. Very nice. 3xLady, thanks so much for explaining this so concisely, articulately ... even poetically. At the websites targeted to "Nons," i.e., the nonBPD partners, the question they most want answered is "Was I really loved?" And they are divided on the answer, with most seeming to conclude that BPDers are incapable of loving. 

Like yours, 3xLady, my experience is that this view is so very wrong. BPDers are able to love and, indeed, can be very caring individuals. Yet, because their emotional development was frozen at the level of a four year old (if they have very strong traits), they are only able to love like a very young child does. It is the type of love that falls far short of what is needed to sustain a marriage of two adults. For that reason, no emotionally healthy adult is willing to settle for that impaired form of love in a marriage partner.

Moreover, I believe it would be a mistake to think of a BPDer as being himself while splitting you white and not being himself when splitting you black. Instead, he is being himself in both states. So the love for you is there all the time, regardless of whether he is in touch with it or not.

I also believe it would be a mistake to think his perception of you is less distorted when he is splitting you white. Instead, it may be equally as distorted as when he is splitting you black. I say this because, when you are being split white, he is projecting onto you all sorts of wonderful attributes (i.e., an ability to make him happy and fix him) that you cannot possibly have. He uses such "magical thinking" to temporarily escape his pain and feeling of emptiness.

Because his perception of you is seriously distorted much of the time, the important question is not whether he loves you but, rather, why you are willing to settle for such an impaired form of love. All of us experience this immature form of love every time we "fall in love" with a new person. It is extremely exciting but, of course, has no staying power. We call it "infatuation" to distinguish it from the mature form of love, which occurs months later and which requires that you love the real aspects of a person, not the projected and imagined aspects.

Being the recipient of infatuation is not God awful because, after all, it is exactly what you get for the first three months of any new romantic relationship. And it is similar to what you get when raising a young child, who is incapable of seeing the "real you" and is in a constant state of splitting, i.e., either adoring Daddy or hating Daddy, depending on whether Daddy is meeting the child's needs at that moment.

And how bad can that be? You don't see mothers and fathers run screaming from their kids because the kids cannot see the real people that constitute their parents. Not so awful. The parents are perfectly willing to settle for "I love you" knowing full well that it largely means "I desperately need you to love ME." Yet, that quality of love is not at all desirable in a relationship between two adults. This, at least, is my take on the experience.


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## Threetimesalady (Dec 22, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Nice. Very nice. 3xLady, thanks so much for explaining this so concisely, articulately ... even poetically. At the websites targeted to "Nons," i.e., the nonBPD partners, the question they most want answered is "Was I really loved?" And they are divided on the answer, with most seeming to conclude that BPDers are incapable of loving.
> 
> Like yours, 3xLady, my experience is that this view is so very wrong. BPDers are able to love and, indeed, can be very caring individuals. Yet, because their emotional development was frozen at the level of a four year old (if they have very strong traits), they are only able to love like a very young child does. It is the type of love that falls far short of what is needed to sustain a marriage of two adults. For that reason, no emotionally healthy adult is willing to settle for that impaired form of love in a marriage partner.
> 
> ...


I made a simple statement to a woman on this Forum...I did not read her entire thread.....I made it on the merit of her last post......

I, in my personal experience with this problem, (family member) have found a lack of loving...Nothing is their fault...Uncaring and prone to be hurtful...But, this is my experience and not yours....I don't care, nor will, get into a personal discussion on this subject with you...First, because this is not my expertise and second, because I just don't have the time......


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## Michelle27 (Nov 8, 2010)

Uptown, I have spent most of my "research" time on BPD Family, actually and it was there I learned about validation and what I had been doing wrong in my confusion and "FOG". It's not a magical fix, but it sure helps.


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