# Wife hates my mom with a passion



## uncool

My wife hates my mother so bad that she hasn't seen my folks in many years. My mother said something that offended my wife 14yrs ago and she just festers over it. My mom apologized for it and everything. My folks live 2hrs away. The other day my mom called to say that they were on the way to our house to drop off some christmas presents. My wife found out they were comming and hurried and left so she wouldn't be here when they got here. It's very difficult for me to tell my folks that they are not allowed in our house. It's not fun to go to family reunions and christmas parties anymore because everyone can't understand why my wife's not there. My wife still encourages me to take our 4 kids to be with their grandparents though. I've begun to despise christmas now because I can't stand going stag to my family's events with my aunt's and uncles asking where my wife is. I can't just say "she hates my mom so she doesn't come" because then they'll ask why and I don't want to get in to it. I feel like a single dad. I don NOT put my mother ahead of my wife. This year I decided to taked the kids to thanksgiving dinner at my relatives. (after avoiding thanksgiving invites for the past 8yrs) while my wife stayed home by herself. I've made it very clear I choose my wife over my mother. I see my mom maybe 3 times a year. When my grandparents died she wouldn't attend the funerals because she knew my mom would be there....and I kinda needed a wife's support at the time but I just powered through it. The problem is that it hurts my mom so much (she really likes my wife and want's my wife to like her in return) The deep level of hate and unforgiveness that my wife is teaching my kids is concerning. In fact my teenage daughter asked me the other day why mom hates grandma so bad. Very difficult to answer.
But I have to be fine going to my wife's folks whom she loves.

My wife and I already have a rocky marriage that I've been trying to fix for years. I think she associates me with the hate she has for my mother. How do I start mending this?


----------



## EleGirl

What was it that your mother said all those years ago that got your wife so upset?


----------



## Cosmos

I have to echo EleGirl, what exactly was it that your mother said to your W?

Thank goodness, however, that your W doesn't try to prevent you or your children from seeing your mother, because this is often the case when there is a rift between DILS and MILS - which is an indicator to me that your W is perhaps not just acting vindictively towards your mother.


----------



## richie33

All that hate your wife has for your mother is pretty unhealthy. She is not being a good role model to your children.
14 years is a long time not to forgive someone. My mother law did something horrible to my wife. I was angry for many 
years but after a while I knew I had to let it go. I forgave but didn't forget.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbelievable

All of us are human and need forgiveness from time to time. If your wife is perfect and never needs forgiveness, she must be a real treat to live with. It's hard for me to imagine what your mom might have said to piss your wife off permanently. If my in-laws hired a hit man and tried to bump me off, that'd be a little hard to get over. Molesting or murdering my kid would be a deal-breaker. It's been 14 years. It's time to get over it or put the two in a cage together and let them fight it out to a resolution. Maybe with garden implements.


----------



## KathyBatesel

I'd be the same way as his wife if she'd said she didn't like me. Shrug. 
My mother told me I'd never been anything but a problem to her. I don't anticipate ever speaking to her again. There are just some relationships that I know will always have unspoken, toxic stuff and I simply won't participate in that. 

I imagine my husband would love to meet my mother, but nope... not gonna happen, at least, not with my help. 

I certainly wouldn't require her to plan murder for me to feel justified in writing her out of my life, but I'd hope to weigh the benefit of that against the difficulties it causes for the people I *do* love.


----------



## uncool

KathyBatesel said:


> I'd be the same way as his wife if she'd said she didn't like me. Shrug.


but my mother never said she didn't like my wife. It's the opposite. My mother really likes my wife and feels bad that my wife hates her so bad.


----------



## Cosmos

uncool said:


> but my mother never said she didn't like my wife. It's the opposite. My mother really likes my wife and feels bad that my wife hates her so bad.


OP, you haven't told us what your mother said to your W?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

My father hated his father for leaving my grandmother for another woman. This happened when my father was 14. He never spoke to him again. His father died maybe 10-15 years ago (I heard through the grapevine) but my father never even acknowledged his death. I've never even seen a picture of him so I don't know anything about him, other than he cheated and left. That kind of hate consumes a person. My dad has lived with depression his whole adult life and I'm sure this has something to do with it.


----------



## Cosmos

WorkingOnMe said:


> My father hated his father for leaving my grandmother for another woman. This happened when my father was 14. He never spoke to him again. His father died maybe 10-15 years ago (I heard through the grapevine) but my father never even acknowledged his death. I've never even seen a picture of him so I don't know anything about him, other than he cheated and left. That kind of hate consumes a person. My dad has lived with depression his whole adult life and I'm sure this has something to do with it.


It's very sad when children become drawn into this sort of thing. No matter what happened between your grandparents, it shouldn't have been allowed to affect either of their relationships with your father. Any chance of getting your dad to talk things out with a counselor, WOM?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

My dad is 70 years old. As far as he's concerned, his father died when he was 14.....56 years ago.


----------



## Wiserforit

uncool said:


> but my mother never said she didn't like my wife. It's the opposite. My mother really likes my wife and feels bad that my wife hates her so bad.


You've been asked numerous times what it was your mother said to the wife and each time you have ignored the question it highlights the oddity of your refusal to address it.

This is, after all, the key question in determining whether your wife's resentment was either reasonable or ridiculous at the outset. 

She didn't think her hat was attractive? She thought your wife was a dirty gutter prostitute? What is the reason for you needing to conceal what the wife took offense at?


----------



## Chris Taylor

I come from a very sarcastic family... my parents and brothers are always taking jabs at each other, all in good fun.

My wife comes from a very "proper" family. No one made fun of anyone else in their family.

A couple of times my mother said something sarcastic to my wife. Either I didn't hear them or heard them as kidding, funny, joking around types of comments. My wife was deeply offended.

What she was most mad about was that I didn't defend her. She stopped going to family affairs (and since most of her family had passed away, it was only my side that had parties.

I, too, felt uncomfortable trying to make up excuses as to why my wife wasn't there. Eventually we landed in marriage counseling.

Our marriage counselor explained to my wife that the reason she should go to these parties is to be with me. They were important events in my life and part of being a spouse is to support the other spouse.

The other part of it was that my wife's actions were putting me in the middle of my parents and her. This isn't to diminish the feelings she had, but by not going to these functions she was basically telling me to choose between her and my parents. This was something I never did with her parents when they were alive. I did more for her parents than their own son, and never made it an issue (and, therefore, never put my wife in the middle).

My job was to be aware of the comments that might be made and be prepared to defend my wife should the occasion arise. 

It was a good compromise and it has worked.

So...

1 - You have to acknowledge your wife's hurt.

2 - You have to assure her that if something is said, you will be there for her. Maybe even promise NEVER to leave her side at these parties.

3 - Let her know that she is putting you in uncomfortable positions, too and that if you are willing to stand by her, she should stand by you.

4 - It may be that while your mother has apologized, did she apologize directly to your wife? Maybe at the next event, your mother should call your wife, explain that she would like to renew their friendship and ask her personally to come to the event. It may be something that only those two can work out.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> This year *I decided to take the kids to thanksgiving dinner* at my relatives. (after avoiding thanksgiving invites for the past 8yrs) *while my wife stayed home by herself. I've made it very clear I choose my wife over my mother*


To me.....that seems like a contradiction. Did you, your wife, and children celebrate your own Thanksgiving (on a different day)........or was your wife completely left out of any celebration?

I don't understand how some people perceive avoiding relationships that are thought to be personally toxic as being "hateful". How can no contact be "hateful"?

And.....I'd *also* like to know what was said. Sometimes one sentence (or sentiment) can negate any kindness that had been shown in the past. It can also ruin trust for the future.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

mkgal1 said:


> To me.....that seems like a contradiction. Did you, your wife, and children celebrate your own Thanksgiving (on a different day)........or was your wife completely left out of any celebration?
> 
> I don't understand how some people perceive avoiding relationships that are thought to be personally toxic as being "hateful". How can no contact be "hateful"?
> 
> And.....I'd *also* like to know what was said. Sometimes one sentence (or sentiment) can negate any kindness that had been shown in the past. It can also ruin trust for the future.


I don't care what was said (within reason), if his mother has apologized, it's time for the wife to FRIGGING GROW UP and be an adult. His family IS her family. They have kids. She can't keep doing this to her family because she's THAT PETTY and can't let go of a grudge. At SOME point, you have to mend fences in a family (unless something truly disturbing happened like abuse).


----------



## canttrustu

One last attempt- WHAT EXACTLY did your mother say to your wife and did you PERSONALLY witness the apology???


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I agree with the others. The fact that he's not willing to say what was said implies that it must have been pretty unforgivable. And the fact that he continues to go there for holidays, abandoning his wife, seems to say that he values his mother much more than his wife.


----------



## EleGirl

Dad&Hubby said:


> I don't care what was said (within reason), if his mother has apologized, it's time for the wife to FRIGGING GROW UP and be an adult. His family IS her family. They have kids. She can't keep doing this to her family because she's THAT PETTY and can't let go of a grudge. At SOME point, you have to mend fences in a family (unless something truly disturbing happened like abuse).


:iagree:


----------



## Prodigal

uncool said:


> My wife and I already have a rocky marriage that I've been trying to fix for years. I think she associates me with the hate she has for my mother. How do I start mending this?


You can't. Fix it yourself, I mean. And your OP doesn't add up. Here's what I've come away with: your wife hates your mother. HATES her. You mother likes, or wants to like your wife. Your mother said something 14 years ago that was the catalyst for your wife to cut all ties with your parents. You either don't know what was said, got it second-hand from your wife, or don't want to repeat what was said.

You can't fix a rocky marriage by yourself. Somebody isn't being honest in this scenario. But all anyone can do at this point is spitball because you refuse to divulge what was said. 

So you are speculating that your wife is projecting some of the hate she harbors for your mother onto you. Then I'll assume your wife kinda hates you too. If that's the case, without your wife's participation in helping an ailing marriage, I think you are going to be a lonely man.


----------



## mkgal1

Another thought I had is.........I'm not sure how the conclusions were drawn about your wife "hating" your mom.....and your mom "liking" your wife. It's a pretty common tactic for a person that doesn't have true remorse to be the one to say things like....."I sure do miss Sally Sue......" when they (not saying your mom does this....just that it's possible)....are the ones that caused the rift in the first place and are the very reason that Sally Sue doesn't feel safe to come around the group any longer. 

It sounds like your mom has loads of support (including you....OP)....but, who has your wife's back? It seems that your wife has become the scape goat.


----------



## canttrustu

mkgal1 said:


> Another thought I had is.........I'm not sure how the conclusions were drawn about your wife "hating" your mom.....and your mom "liking" your wife. It's a pretty common tactic for a person that doesn't have true remorse to be the one to say things like....."I sure do miss Sally Sue......" when they (not saying your mom does this....just that it's possible)....the ones that caused the rift in the first place, are the very reason that Sally Sue doesn't feel safe to come around the group any longer.
> 
> It sounds like your mom has loads of support (including you....OP)....but, who has your wife's back? It seems that your wife has become the scape goat.


EXACTLY what my MIL did until my H finally wised up.


----------



## Wiserforit

Dad&Hubby said:


> I don't care what was said (within reason), if his mother has apologized, it's time for the wife to FRIGGING GROW UP and be an adult. His family IS her family. They have kids. She can't keep doing this to her family because she's THAT PETTY and can't let go of a grudge. At SOME point, you have to mend fences in a family (unless something truly disturbing happened like abuse).


Well, obviously you are a reasonable person. 

What is not reasonable is the husband who is currently telling this story to start in the middle instead of the beginning. You also have all the intermediary development on what the "apology" was, exactly. 

"I'm sorry you're such a worthless daughter in law who can't take a joke, and I miss you so terribly because we like to make fun of how retarded you are..." 

*mkgal1* Made another catch I missed. Leaving the wife at home and going to the family dinner alone is not showing that you put the wife first. But then again, I say the same thing when I fly with my mistress to the carribean: I make it clear that my wife comes first. 

I really don't know how to call this with such a sketchy accounting. If a person really wants help from others, they pour out the details. 

On the other hand when we try to paint someone as bad, we often provide a stylized framing that omits game-changing details.


----------



## SunnyT

He went to Thanksgiving dinner after 8 years of not going... so ya, he supported wife.


----------



## Thundarr

I'm all for choosing "wife" when it come to wife versus mom but this is confusing. Fourteen years is a long long time when one of the parties wants to reconcile. Plus wanting you and the kids to see grandma yet having such disdain is puzzling to me.

There has to be other signs in her life where similar behavior has appeared. Tell me there is or I'll be even more puzzled. I'm thinking maybe some form of OCD where not seeing your mother is the compulsion.

Curious indeed.


----------



## EleGirl

I'm posting this because of the speculation and negative remarks that are starting because uncool (the OP) has not posted what his mother said.

Uncool is not trying to hide anything.

He PM'd me and told me what his mom said. What was said is related to something very private to the entire family, his extended family and his immediate family, and he's concerned about posting it here. I have suggested that he post it so he's thinking about doing that.

I can understand his reluctance to post but think it would be beneficial for him if he does.

It's not my place of course to divulge what was told to me in private.

I will hold of on any other comments until he does or does not post.


----------



## Wiserforit

EleGirl said:


> Uncool is not trying to hide anything.


My eyes are working perfectly, thanks. Yes, he is. See how right we were? 

Having "reasons" for it doesn't change the fact he is hiding it. 

You can't have it both ways: asking for input but concealing something relevant. If you aren't prepared to tell the full story, then don't be asking for input.


----------



## Thundarr

Wiserforit said:


> If you aren't prepared to tell the full story, then don't be asking for input.


Or expect uninformed and speculative and frustration responses at the very least.


----------



## mkgal1

canttrustu said:


> EXACTLY what my MIL did until my H finally wised up.


Glad he finally saw it.......that's such a subtle way to give the impression of "I'm the kind and innocent one" .....and the other person "just has a chip on their shoulder and continues to harbor a grudge against poor innocent me." Sometimes we ought to dig a bit deeper to get to the truth (like it sounds like your husband did).


----------



## Prodigal

Wiserforit said:


> You can't have it both ways: asking for input but concealing something relevant. If you aren't prepared to tell the full story, then don't be asking for input.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

And I don't see what the point is of announcing to those who took the time to respond that one poster KNOWS the inside details from a PM. A PM means PRIVATE. Sorry, but I-know-something-you-don't-know sounds unnecessary.

Fine by me. If the information is that priviledged, then the OP should consider going to the private members forum or seeing a professional counselor. This is a public internet site.


----------



## EleGirl

Prodigal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> And I don't see what the point is of announcing to those who took the time to respond that one poster KNOWS the inside details from a PM. A PM means PRIVATE. Sorry, but I-know-something-you-don't-know sounds unnecessary.
> 
> Fine by me. If the information is that priviledged, then the OP should consider going to the private members forum or seeing a professional counselor. This is a public internet site.


I don't think he realized when he posted here that people would ask for detail. Not everyone lives on forums an realizes how other posters will jump on anything and just start twisting it.


----------



## EleGirl

Wiserforit said:


> My eyes are working perfectly, thanks. Yes, he is. See how right we were?
> 
> Having "reasons" for it doesn't change the fact he is hiding it.
> 
> You can't have it both ways: asking for input but concealing something relevant. If you aren't prepared to tell the full story, then don't be asking for input.


I don't think wanting to keep some things private and not post them to the entire world is hiding something.

The OP posted his interpretation of what is going on and was hoping for help in how to mend his family. We often take peopel at their word here. AFter all we seldom get the 'rest of the story'. We get one person's side and that's it.

Well he posted his side of the story and wants help.


----------



## EleGirl

SunnyT said:


> He went to Thanksgiving dinner after 8 years of not going... so ya, he supported wife.


:iagree:


----------



## PBear

EleGirl said:


> I'm posting this because of the speculation and negative remarks that are starting because uncool (the OP) has not posted what his mother said.
> 
> Uncool is not trying to hide anything.
> 
> He PM'd me and told me what his mom said. What was said is related to something very private to the entire family, his extended family and his immediate family, and he's concerned about posting it here. I have suggested that he post it so he's thinking about doing that.
> 
> I can understand his reluctance to post but think it would be beneficial for him if he does.
> 
> It's not my place of course to divulge what was told to me in private.
> 
> I will hold of on any other comments until he does or does not post.


So you're a reasonable person, and likely respected in these parts. If he gives you permission to comment, would you say the MIL comments were grudge-worthy? 6 months worth? 6 years worth?

Just wondering...

C


----------



## EleGirl

PBear said:


> So you're a reasonable person, and likely respected in these parts. If he gives you permission to comment, would you say the MIL comments were grudge-worthy? 6 months worth? 6 years worth?
> 
> Just wondering...
> 
> C


I'll send him a PM and ask if it's ok is I give my opinion on here.


----------



## Wiserforit

EleGirl said:


> I don't think wanting to keep some things private and not post them to the entire world is hiding something.


You are free to think whatever silly thing you want. 

He's not posting to the entire world. He is posting anonymously to less than .00000000001% of the world. 

For practical purposes his entire life is private, and will remain so even after divulging whatever this is. Nobody here knows who he is, so this is a ludicrous position. 

It is manipulative to start a thread and then enlist support through PM's to people who value petty privilige of secret information. My response to that would be to ask that if they can't give people the truth, then delete the thread.


----------



## EleGirl

Wiserforit said:


> You are free to think whatever silly thing you want.
> 
> He's not posting to the entire world. He is posting anonymously to less than .00000000001% of the world.
> 
> For practical purposes his entire life is private, and will remain so even after divulging whatever this is. Nobody here knows who he is, so this is a ludicrous position.
> 
> It is manipulative to start a thread and then enlist support through PM's *to people who value petty privilige *of secret information. My response to that would be to ask that if they can't give people the truth, then delete the thread.


So now I"m someone who values "petty privilige".

Thanks for that :scratchhead:


----------



## northernlights

This message board might not have many viewers, true, but isn't anyone else creeped out by the "share" button in the corner? Do you know how many times I've almost accidentally clicked that and posted something to Facebook? I understand the OP's reluctance to share identifying details. That "share" button would have driven me away by now if there was any other place with such great, marriage-wise people to go to!


----------



## Cosmos

mkgal1 said:


> Another thought I had is.........I'm not sure how the conclusions were drawn about your wife "hating" your mom.....and your mom "liking" your wife. It's a pretty common tactic for a person that doesn't have true remorse to be the one to say things like....."I sure do miss Sally Sue......" when they (not saying your mom does this....just that it's possible)....the ones that caused the rift in the first place, are the very reason that Sally Sue doesn't feel safe to come around the group any longer.
> 
> It sounds like your mom has loads of support (including you....OP)....but, who has your wife's back? It seems that your wife has become the scape goat.


This sounds very familiar to me...

I remember seeing my ex-MIL from hell after about 20 years at my son's graduation. She was sweetness and light towards me in front of my son, but the minute his back was turned she deliberately started trying to provoke me. My son loved and defended her to her death, telling me how she only ever praised what a good mother I'd been etc...

I'm not saying that this is the case with the OP's mother, but some people are very clever at keeping a rift going without appearing to be the instigator.


----------



## EleGirl

northernlights said:


> This message board might not have many viewers, true, but isn't anyone else creeped out by the "share" button in the corner? Do you know how many times I've almost accidentally clicked that and posted something to Facebook? I understand the OP's reluctance to share identifying details. That "share" button would have driven me away by now if there was any other place with such great, marriage-wise people to go to!


On popular forums like these, there are hundreds, it not thousands, of 'guests' reading for every member who is on line at any one time.


----------



## canttrustu

BINGO!!!!! Then she'd tell him how rude I'd been to HER and he'd be pissed at ME. UFB how manipulative she was for years. He finally caught on but not before she did it to HIM. In front of him she'd smile at me and use the sweetest of voices, the minute he left the room she'd turn her back on me and refuse to acknowledge my existence or she would directly insult me then when I'd respond she'd pretend to be offended and tell him how rude I was to her. I stopped attending family functions as well.


----------



## Cosmos

canttrustu said:


> BINGO!!!!! Then she'd tell him how rude I'd been to HER and he'd be pissed at ME. UFB how manipulative she was for years. He finally caught on but not before she did it to HIM. In front of him she'd smile at me and use the sweetest of voices, the minute he left the room she'd turn her back on me and refuse to acknowledge my existence or she would directly insult me then when I'd respond she'd pretend to be offended and tell him how rude I was to her. I stopped attending family functions as well.


It's very difficult to win with people like this because they play the game so well.


----------



## canttrustu

Cosmos said:


> It's very difficult to win with people like this because they play the game so well.


Yep. It only took 17 yrs but he finally caught on. I had stopped attending family functions with him a couple of years before that. And yes, it irritated me every time he went but on the other hand I understood it. The part that made me so mad was that he would get mad at me for not going. Well, then deal with your mother. EVERY time there was an issue between the two of us- it ALWAYS fell on me from him bc he wouldnt say anything to his mother. That built some resentment from me toward him for not defending me to her. 

He now sees that he should have. Live and learn, right?


----------



## Thundarr

Cosmos said:


> It's very difficult to win with people like this because they play the game so well.


I dont think MILs play it well normally. Everyone else around them has just come to accept that's how they are. Well a child can accept his mother's flaws and minimise them but a self respecting SIL/DIL doesn't have to accept anything less than decency and respect from thier MIL. Mohters have a way of thinking they are queen B in their children's marriages. Good luck seeing the grandkids often when they are like that.

But still I'm curious about OP because 14 years is a long time. I could see once every few years that she tries and then get's pissed again.


----------



## Cosmos

canttrustu said:


> Yep. It only took 17 yrs but he finally caught on. I had stopped attending family functions with him a couple of years before that. And yes, it irritated me every time he went but on the other hand I understood it. The part that made me so mad was that he would get mad at me for not going. Well, then deal with your mother. EVERY time there was an issue between the two of us- it ALWAYS fell on me from him bc he wouldnt say anything to his mother. That built some resentment from me toward him for not defending me to her.
> 
> He now sees that he should have. Live and learn, right?


It's good that your H finally saw through his mother, but sad that it was necessary for him to do so. Do you think she'll mend her ways? Hopefully, her son is more important to her than point scoring and playing games with you.


----------



## KathyBatesel

Wiserforit said:


> You are free to think whatever silly thing you want.
> 
> He's not posting to the entire world. He is posting anonymously to less than .00000000001% of the world.
> 
> For practical purposes his entire life is private, and will remain so even after divulging whatever this is. Nobody here knows who he is, so this is a ludicrous position.
> 
> It is manipulative to start a thread and then enlist support through PM's to people who value petty privilige of secret information. My response to that would be to ask that if they can't give people the truth, then delete the thread.


Wiser, I think you're being unfair and unnecessarily rude to Elegirl and to uncool. It's ok for someone to decide how much of a situation to reveal on a public forum that will float around in cyberspace forever, just like it's ok to believe that it's anonymous and always will be. 

I can't understand why you'd feel hostile over it?!?!


----------



## canttrustu

Cosmos said:


> It's good that your H finally saw through his mother, but sad that it was necessary for him to do so. Do you think she'll mend her ways? Hopefully, her son is more important to her than point scoring and playing games with you.


No. She will not. She is PA and sees nothing wrong with anything she does and always plays the victim. Thats what Im saying to OP- perhaps the side of your mother youre seeing isnt the side she's showing your wife???? Just a thought.

My MIL swore she'd apologized to me for something when in reality what she said was "im sorry you took it that way".....THAT is NOT an apology. Especially when she followed it up with sticking to her original statement....

So OP just bc your mother is sweet and gentle with you(and perhaps manipulative) it doesnt mean thats the way she treats her DIL. In fact, she could feel threatened by being dethroned by your wife as queen B as Thundarr said. She could be being very PA when you arent looking. Is that possible?

ANd nothing against Elegirl-but I think its a crock to come tell half the story and expect any intelligent responses. JMO.


----------



## Starstarfish

Well - given that I don't know what the trigger comment was, like most of the other posters, it's difficult for me to And though I know I'm stepping into potential flame territory from the "just get over it" folks - I'll comment, I'm in OPs wife's shoes. 

I am a DIL who no longer sees my in-laws, nor have I seen them for I guess about two and half years now. But for me, it wasn't one single comment. It was a series of them from the first time we met. Every single time I was around her, she said something or did something incredibly hurtful and disrespectful - which while some might seem quite petty to a casual observer, they all combined to make it painfully clear that I was not welcome or accepted. That I indeed was not part of the family, that I was only begrudgingly allowed to be around. 

Which for me was compounded by the fact that when these comments were made, my husband never said anything. And thus not only did I feel shunned and embarrassed by the public ridicule, but then abandoned to fend for myself as well. If and when we have discussed it, I got the "she can't help it, it's just the way she is" thing - telling me he saw nothing wrong with it. Or - that it didn't matter it was wrong - she had an excuse.

Which - if your wife is angry at you in connection with your mother's comments, it's possible that she has the same feelings. Which yes, not visiting is supporting her in one way, but - it's different. It's different than supporting her in the moment. So how did you react when this original exchange was made from your mother to your wife? How did everyone else react? Was this done in front of your entire family? When she no doubt talked to you about it after the fact, what did you say? Did you tell her "it's not that big a deal" or "it's just how she is" - which could be interpreted as dismissing her feelings as invalid. 



> Can't blame my dad for sticking up for his woman... as I'd do the same if I were him.


So - did you do the same? What was your participation in this original row? Which you might not want to get into either, but - this might be what spoke volumes to your wife more than what your mother said. It was how you were or weren't going to support her in their presence. That it caused a breech in trust between you - that she couldn't trust for you to "have her back." Which isn't something that is easily "just gotten over."

Without more information though, it is indeed difficult to surmise, that's one possible string of thought though.


----------



## mkgal1

Cosmos said:


> I'm not saying that this is the case with the OP's mother, but *some people are very clever at keeping a rift going without appearing to be the instigator*.


Exactly. Well put.


----------



## mkgal1

Cosmos said:


> It's very difficult to win with people like this because they play the game so well.


So true.........so, typically the only good solution is to have no contact. You shouldn't be accused of being rude when you aren't even present (but, even *that* ----her absence----is being spun as "treating my mom like crap").


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> But I have to be fine going to my wife's folks whom she loves.


I just caught this from the OP. What do you mean by this, Uncool? Do you resent going to your wife's parents events?

How many years have you been married, BTW? There seems to be this "your family" and "my family" thing going on. That seems odd to me after many years of marriage (and four children).

......and this:



> My folks live 2hrs away. *The other day* my mom called to say that they were on the way to our house to drop off some christmas presents. My wife found out they were coming and hurried and left so she wouldn't be here when they got here. *It's very difficult for me to tell my folks that they are not allowed in our house.*


So.....because it's "difficult"......it seems that you don't say anything about them coming into your home? Instead.....your wife has to scurry out of her own home ("own" with you and your children, of course)? And it sounds as if you're blaming your wife for leaving (her home).........why not consider that from two hours away, your parents could have respected your wife and maybe offered to meet you somewhere like a coffee shop---somewhere where your wife wouldn't be inconvenienced or run out of her own home.


----------



## Thundarr

Every one of us have seen the dynamic (either lived it or seen it) where MIL just doesn't mind her business. If not with the spouse then it's with the grandkids. We (men) don't see the passive aggressive cat fight and slights as they occur. I've been fortunate in this arena that my wife is viewed as a catch by my mom. She didn't get to see the kids as often though because she flat out couldn't follow rules. I may be her child but I make the rules with my own children. Off soap box.

OP, will your wife and mom not set down with you? Would there be any point in this or would it end with mom denying transgression or not getting true misinterpretation out in the open and wife saying well then screw you.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

canttrustu said:


> Yep. It only took 17 yrs but he finally caught on. I had stopped attending family functions with him a couple of years before that. And yes, it irritated me every time he went but on the other hand I understood it. The part that made me so mad was that he would get mad at me for not going. Well, then deal with your mother. EVERY time there was an issue between the two of us- it ALWAYS fell on me from him bc he wouldnt say anything to his mother. That built some resentment from me toward him for not defending me to her.
> 
> He now sees that he should have. Live and learn, right?


And you also have the wives/husbands who do the same. My ex-wife told my mother to her face, the DAY OF THE WEDDING (obviously not in front of me). "I'll never be part of your family. I already have a family and I'm going to take your son away." And over 3 years of manipulations, she did. I finally woke up and that's where the marriage came to an end (among other things). I wasn't a husband to love. I was a husband to control to my ex-wife.

So before we judge one side or another, lets wait for the facts.


----------



## Starstarfish

I could also be going way out in left field here, but - part of the bigger problem here seems to be an underlying current in your original post, OP about embarrassment and a desire to not address problems head on. As your post notes in quite a few places how "it's difficult" and "it's uncomfortable" and "I don't want to get into it." 

Which, is the same attitude on the thread - that it's a private matter and you don't want to talk about here. Which, is fine ultimately. But - I think this is is one of the core reasons that for 14 years, this issue has never been properly addressed. It's a big open secret - everyone knows the truth (how many people in your family do you feel actually don't know the background at this point) - but no one really talks about it. It almost seems to be a test about what excuse you'll make up about why she's not there, so no one has to get to the heart of the matter - as that would be embarrassing and unpleasant. 

Which I'm wondering (again could be totally wrong)- is this a recurring theme in other parts of your life? Do you and the wife have difficulty communicating, because you don't like to have "difficult" or "uncomfortable" conversations - are you avoidant? Is this part of your "rocky" marriage?


----------



## Cosmos

Dad&Hubby said:


> And you also have the wives/husbands who do the same. My ex-wife told my mother to her face, the DAY OF THE WEDDING (obviously not in front of me). "I'll never be part of your family. I already have a family and I'm going to take your son away." And over 3 years of manipulations, she did. I finally woke up and that's where the marriage came to an end (among other things). I wasn't a husband to love. I was a husband to control to my ex-wife.
> 
> So before we judge one side or another, lets wait for the facts.


Yes, this is the other side of the coin and it's very sad indeed. It seems to be more prevalent amongst women, and I've never been able to understand it. IMO, if you love someone you're not going to try to test their loyalty by creating mischief in the husband/wife or mother/son relationship.

For some reason, there are some mothers and DILS who see themselves in competition with one another, and the person who ends up being hurt the most is the person they're both supposed to love. :scratchhead:


----------



## canttrustu

Dad&Hubby said:


> And you also have the wives/husbands who do the same. My ex-wife told my mother to her face, the DAY OF THE WEDDING (obviously not in front of me). "I'll never be part of your family. I already have a family and I'm going to take your son away." And over 3 years of manipulations, she did. I finally woke up and that's where the marriage came to an end (among other things). I wasn't a husband to love. I was a husband to control to my ex-wife.
> 
> So before we judge one side or another, lets wait for the facts.


EVERY word of this is MY experierince. NOT once have I said this IS ABSOLUTELY the way it is for OP. In fact we dont know bc he's disappeared. Wont tell us what she said to his wife. So Im merely saying to him what happened in MY experience when MY H thought his mother was the innocent one. 

Of course it happens the other way around. No one doubts that. But we are left to speculate and can only speak of our own experiences bc Op is gone w/o telling us what was said. 

Sorry you had this experience with your wife. I would not do this. He was/is free to go and see his family whenever he wishes. I am not obligated to do so nor do they care. NONE of the in laws are accepted in the family. So again, I was merely suggesting that OP CONSIDER rather or not there could be more to the story than his mother is giving. Thats all.


----------



## Thundarr

Dad&Hubby said:


> So before we judge one side or another, lets wait for the facts.


Unfortunately we won't have those. It's one side after all plus he has personal information about what was said not exposed.

In the end though one person sets in the middle and has the most opportunity to fix this. It's OP. He should let mother know that wife comes first and then let wife know that she's number one and she needs to be there for him. If she's treated with disrespect then they both leave. If he sets the tone then everyone knows he and wife are a package deal (including MIL and wife). Where's one of those alpha threads to point to when you need it  just kidding.


----------



## janefw

Cosmos said:


> This sounds very familiar to me...
> 
> I remember seeing my ex-MIL from hell after about 20 years at my son's graduation. She was sweetness and light towards me in front of my son, but the minute his back was turned she deliberately started trying to provoke me. My son loved and defended her to her death, telling me how she only ever praised what a good mother I'd been etc...
> 
> I'm not saying that this is the case with the OP's mother, but some people are very clever at keeping a rift going without appearing to be the instigator.


I have had a similar experience (ongoing) with my MIL. With her son (my h) she is the most reasonable, kind, sweet person and never puts a foot wrong, but she has made the most deadly comments and criticisms during the period of our marriage, including in the very early days when I overheard her talk to her daughter about me. She never apologizes, never even seems phased by any of it. At the same time, she has a lapdog in my husband, who slides into role of _only son_ as soon as she come son the radar. It's really creepy and unhealthy. 

As the OP isn't willing to talk about what actually happened, I'm not willing to accept that the comment was minor. I can only assume that it was really horrible, and that the apology was not honestly given. (Apologies such as 'I'm sorry that you took it that way' are _NOT _apologies, for instance.)


----------



## janefw

canttrustu said:


> "im sorry you took it that way".....THAT is NOT an apology. Especially when she followed it up with sticking to her original statement....


I swear I didn't read your post before I wrote mine. Maybe we have the same MIL? LOL.


----------



## canttrustu

janefw said:


> I swear I didn't read your post before I wrote mine. Maybe we have the same MIL? LOL.


Could be- as Ive said, she doesnt like ANY of the in laws. AND he has brothers soooooo.


----------



## uncool

You all are right. It's hard to share some things on a public forum but I will if there isn't too much flaming involved. I'll put this as delicately as I can.
14 yrs ago my 13 year old brother confessed out of guilt to my father that he had inappropriately touched my 2 yr old daughter during a diaper change. It was tragic for all. My father told me and I told my wife. My mother called the cops and he never did anything like that again. My brother apologized to me the best a 13yr old can. He also wrote my wife and I a letter of apology. I am not saying this should have fixed everything. 
The problem is a year or so after ...my mother asked my wife if she was ready forgive and move on so everyone could heal from this. I'm not sure if my wife thought my mom just wanted it for her own social gain or something or what. Yes my mother was an idiot for mentioning such things at that time and should have been more tactful. My mother was wrong. My wife yelled at my mother and called her lots of nasty names. While it hurt to see my mother yelled at... I didn't interject because I felt she deserved it. The my dad didn't like his wife crying so then he got upset that somebody is treating his woman like crap.. and wow... instant mess. (my dad and I reconciled and are very close again) So yeah I'm not standing by my mother. I'm standing by my wife. I've told my wife this many times so she knows. I'm just tired and sad that this will never be resolved and also sad that it's affecting my marriage somehow (I live in a sexless marriage). My wife somehow relates me to my mother. (even though I'm adopted and look and act nothing like my mother)

My brother is now 30 years old and has wife & kids of his own. Do I ever associate and hang out with my brother and his family? NO I do not.

Some may agree this gives my wife a free pass to hate everyone on my side of the family for ever and ever. There is no hope that things will ever be mended. The whole reason for my thread is I need help coping with the eternal hatred my wife has for my side of the family. I've had both my grandparents and an uncle pass away recently and I was chosen to give the eulogy at their funerals. I was extremely close to my grandmother on my fathers side. My wife stayed home. It wasn't even on my mothers side of the family and she still absolutely refuses to be a part of anyones life. My now 17yr old daughter asked me the other day why mom hates grandma so much. I told her I wasn't sure (which wasn't a lie). I'm Mr. tough guy most of the time but I need a wife who stands by her husband and supports him at least some of the times in his life when needs her.


----------



## Cosmos

This sort of thing can be very hard to deal with, OP, and it's a pity that there hadn't been some sort of family counseling at the time...

Perhaps your M was insensitive saying what she did to your W, and I'm sure it angered your W a lot, but it's just very sad that all this wasn't put to rest years ago.

Have you considered MC?


----------



## Rosemary's Granddaughter

uncool said:


> You all are right. It's hard to share some things on a public forum but I will if there isn't too much flaming involved. I'll put this as delicately as I can.
> 14 yrs ago my 13 year old brother confessed out of guilt to my father that he had inappropriately touched my 2 yr old daughter during a diaper change. It was tragic for all. My father told me and I told my wife. My mother called the cops and he never did anything like that again. My brother apologized to me the best a 13yr old can. He also wrote my wife and I a letter of apology. I am not saying this should have fixed everything.
> The problem is a year or so after ...my mother asked my wife if she was ready forgive and move on so everyone could heal from this. I'm not sure if my wife thought my mom just wanted it for her own social gain or something or what. Yes my mother was an idiot for mentioning such things at that time and should have been more tactful. My mother was wrong. My wife yelled at my mother and called her lots of nasty names. While it hurt to see my mother yelled at... I didn't interject because I felt she deserved it. The my dad didn't like his wife crying so then he got upset that somebody is treating his woman like crap.. and wow... instant mess. (my dad and I reconciled and are very close again) So yeah I'm not standing by my mother. I'm standing by my wife. I've told my wife this many times so she knows. I'm just tired and sad that this will never be resolved and also sad that it's affecting my marriage somehow (I live in a sexless marriage). My wife somehow relates me to my mother. (even though I'm adopted and look and act nothing like my mother)
> 
> My brother is now 30 years old and has wife & kids of his own. Do I ever associate and hang out with my brother and his family? NO I do not.
> 
> Some may agree this gives my wife a free pass to hate everyone on my side of the family for ever and ever. There is no hope that things will ever be mended. The whole reason for my thread is I need help coping with the eternal hatred my wife has for my side of the family. I've had both my grandparents and an uncle pass away recently and I was chosen to give the eulogy at their funerals. I was extremely close to my grandmother on my fathers side. My wife stayed home. It wasn't even on my mothers side of the family and she still absolutely refuses to be a part of anyones life. My now 17yr old daughter asked me the other day why mom hates grandma so much. I told her I wasn't sure (which wasn't a lie). I'm Mr. tough guy most of the time but I need a wife who stands by her husband and supports him at least some of times in his life when needs her.


Yes, this is an awkward situation, and I understand why you hesitated in posting the details.

It seems to me that your mother did the right things initially--she even called the police on her own 13-year old son. I don't understand the level of hatred coming from your wife for a simple question, especially when that question was about coming to a peaceful resolution. From everything I've read (I've read some of your other posts about your wife), it seems your wife has issues that you cannot resolve alone. If she refuses therapy, there may be no chance for change, especially after so many years. 

From this perspective, I don't think that there is any advice anyone here can give beyond, "Cut your losses". I do not take divorce lightly, but based on the deep grudges your wife holds, I think you are in a no-win situation.


----------



## canttrustu

Something here still just isnt adding up. So bc your brother inappropriately touched your daughter 17 yrs ago-your W basically hates you and your MIL????? Thats really what youre saying here. I can most certainly understand her having NOTHING to do wiht your brother-EVER. But I dont understand what that has to do with cutting you off sexually or never speaking to your MIL again???? 

Surely there is some filler here.....


----------



## NewM

I checked your other thread and it seems like you are in sexless marriage for at last 3 years.
I think you should divorce you as you are in sexless marriage and she refuses to tell you what is bothering her.


----------



## mkgal1

This is just conjecture on my part, but I don't think it's just that incident that erupted years ago that's the main issue. I think it's probably an overall feeling that no one is on your wife's side and that she's always expected to "get over it" and "move on". It seems to me that typically the people that suggest that ("let's just move on and get past that") are often the ones that are causing most of the damage. 

You talk about this as if it all goes back to 14 years ago......but, you already mentioned a recent encroachement (your mom coming to your home, and your wife being judged for leaving). If there's been pressure for fourteen years that your wife, "just get over the past and move on"......while she is being disrespected (in the present).........that doesn't give a person much security that the future would be any different than the past ever was. To me......it seems that the fourteen year period has only given your wife *more* reason to believe that things aren't going to improve unless someone (hopefully you, OP) stands up for her and understands her perspective.


----------



## canttrustu

uncool said:


> You all are right. It's hard to share some things on a public forum but I will if there isn't too much flaming involved. I'll put this as delicately as I can.
> 14 yrs ago my 13 year old brother confessed out of guilt to my father that he had inappropriately touched my 2 yr old daughter during a diaper change. It was tragic for all. My father told me and I told my wife. My mother called the cops and he never did anything like that again. My brother apologized to me the best a 13yr old can. He also wrote my wife and I a letter of apology. I am not saying this should have fixed everything.
> The problem is a year or so after ...my mother asked my wife if she was ready forgive and move on so everyone could heal from this. I'm not sure if my wife thought my mom just wanted it for her own social gain or something or what. Yes my mother was an idiot for mentioning such things at that time and should have been more tactful. My mother was wrong. My wife yelled at my mother and called her lots of nasty names. While it hurt to see my mother yelled at... I didn't interject because I felt she deserved it. The my dad didn't like his wife crying so then he got upset that somebody is treating his woman like crap.. and wow... instant mess. (my dad and I reconciled and are very close again) So yeah I'm not standing by my mother. I'm standing by my wife. I've told my wife this many times so she knows. I'm just tired and sad that this will never be resolved and also sad that it's affecting my marriage somehow (I live in a sexless marriage). My wife somehow relates me to my mother. (even though I'm adopted and look and act nothing like my mother)
> 
> My brother is now 30 years old and has wife & kids of his own. Do I ever associate and hang out with my brother and his family? NO I do not.
> 
> Some may agree this gives my wife a free pass to hate everyone on my side of the family for ever and ever. There is no hope that things will ever be mended. The whole reason for my thread is I need help coping with the eternal hatred my wife has for my side of the family. I've had both my grandparents and an uncle pass away recently and I was chosen to give the eulogy at their funerals. I was extremely close to my grandmother on my fathers side. My wife stayed home. It wasn't even on my mothers side of the family and she still absolutely refuses to be a part of anyones life. My now 17yr old daughter asked me the other day why mom hates grandma so much. I told her I wasn't sure (which wasn't a lie). I'm Mr. tough guy most of the time but I need a wife who stands by her husband and supports him at least some of the times in his life when needs her.


Here's my question- When do you support and stand by her???? You said they argued and you didnt interfere...does that mean you stood there and let your mother dress your wife down over this very sensitive issue????


----------



## Thundarr

Let's assume the worst and say your wife took something said as some form of acusation. Maybe implication that she neglectfully let her 2 years old be alone with your brother or something like that.

Even with that assumption, why is she married to you if everything about your whole family disgust her so much. Maybe she has been biding her time until the kids are grown which is rediculous to me. As the excape time approaches, she just stops trying.

I hadn't looked at your other threads but my thoughts are a marriage with no sex is only a contract that hasn't been dismantled yet. I don't know if she knows this but the older children get, the more problems they have with mom and dad splitting. Little ones adapt more than big ones. Their whole belief system gets shaken when they're older it seems.

Here I am assuming a lot about your wife's intentions but for the life of me I can come up with any reason why she's been 100% absent from your whole family unless it's been her intent to cut and run when the kids are grown.


----------



## mkgal1

> My brother is now 30 years old and has wife & kids of his own. Do I ever associate and hang out with my brother and his family? NO I do not


Why don't you associate with your brother? Do you mean he's not at family gatherings.....like Thanksgiving and Christmas? Or do you mean you don't speak to him when he is there? *When* did you cease contact with him?


----------



## canttrustu

mkgal1 said:


> Why don't you associate with your brother? *When* did you cease contact with him?


Ummmmmm- because he touched his 2 yr old inappropriately.


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> To me.....that seems like a contradiction. Did you, your wife, and children celebrate your own Thanksgiving (on a different day)........or was your wife completely left out of any celebration?


In the past 8yrs I was trying to be Mr. nice guy and respect my wifes feelings by having thanksgiving at either her folks house or stayed home and had it alone with our little family. Having it at my grandmothers house has been out of the question.
Well I was sick of my wife's attitude in our marriage over the last year. No sex for 6 months. The refusal to acknowledge or participate in our anniversary etc. And I was tired of her parents thinking nothing was wrong and that their daughter is a perfect angel.
I was also sick of not being able to see any of my cousins, aunts, uncle, nieces, nephews etc for years and years. So I mentioned to my wife that I'd like to take my kids down to great grandmas for thanksgiving and that she was invited also. (I felt I had nothing to loose) She didn't say anything to me until it was time to leave. She just said she wasn't going. 

After we left (3hr drive) I called my wife's parents from my cel phone and told them that she was home alone and refused to come with us to thanksgiving. I asked if they'd please invite her over for thanksgiving with them. So yes she wasn't alone. I want her to be happy. She enjoyed the holiday with her family like she does every year. I was SOOOOO glad that I opened up the can of worms with her parents asking me why she wasn't going with me. I just told them to ask her. I then found out that for the past 10yrs every other year they thought she was with my side of the family for thanksgiving. They were shocked when I told them she hadn't seen anyone on my side of the family for the past 9yrs. No longer will I lie and walk on eggshells for her.


----------



## mkgal1

canttrustu said:


> Ummmmmm- because he touched his 2 yr old inappropriately.


Well......yes. What I'm getting at is that he understands ceasing contact with someone (and has done so).....but, isn't offering the same understanding to his wife. 

That was a one-time incident of an adolescent (that willingly confessed), and I assume hasn't had any problem with any repeat offences. I see that as different than an adult that's characterized as (again....this is speculation)....possibly not seeing things from another's perspective and who disrespects them (continually).


----------



## uncool

canttrustu said:


> Here's my question- When do you support and stand by her???? You said they argued and you didnt interfere...does that mean you stood there and let your mother dress your wife down over this very sensitive issue????


my mother didnt dress my wife down. My wife chewed my mothers butt off one day over the phone. My moms ear had to have been bleeding it was so bad. My wife said my mother was crying. I overheard it all. 
When haven't I stood by my wife's side? maybe I dont understand what you're saying.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> In the past 8yrs I was trying to be Mr. nice guy and respect my wifes feelings by having thanksgiving at either her folks house or stayed home and had it alone with our little family. Having it at my grandmothers house has been out of the question.
> Well I was sick of my wife's attitude in our marriage over the last year. No sex for 6 months. The refusal to acknowledge or participate in our anniversary etc. And I was tired of her parents thinking nothing was wrong and that their daughter is a perfect angel.


The thing is.....there's a difference between "playing the role" of Mr. Nice guy.....and truly understanding and supporting your wife. It (to me) sounds like a points earning thing. I wonder if you remind her of this often (in ways like, "well......I haven't been able to go see my relatives for YEARS because of YOU.") 




> I was also sick of not being able to see any of my cousins, aunts, uncle, nieces, nephews etc for years and years. So I mentioned to my wife that I'd like to take my kids down to great grandmas for thanksgiving and that she was invited also. (I felt I had nothing to loose) She didn't say anything to me until it was time to leave. She just said she wasn't going.


That doesn't sound like true support over the years. I'm sorry to be so blunt. It just sounds like a heap of resentment festering.



> After we left (3hr drive) I called my wife's parents from my cel phone and told them that she was home alone and refused to come with us to thanksgiving. I asked if they'd please invite her over for thanksgiving with them. So yes she wasn't alone. I want her to be happy. She enjoyed the holiday with her family like she does every year. *I was SOOOOO glad that I opened up the can of worms with her parents asking me why she wasn't going with me. I just told them to ask her*. I then found out that for the past 10yrs every other year they thought she was with my side of the family for thanksgiving. *They were shocked when I told them she hadn't seen anyone on my side of the family for the past 9yrs*. No longer will I lie and walk on eggshells for her.


It sounds like they didn't have to ask her, because you had already filled them in (happily so.....because then you could give them the glasses in which to perceive their daughter).


----------



## canttrustu

mkgal1 said:


> Well......yes. What I'm getting at is that he understands ceasing contact with someone (and has done so).....but, isn't offering the same understanding to his wife.
> 
> That was a one-time incident of an adolescent (that willingly confessed), and I assume hasn't had any problem with any repeat offences. I see that as different than an adult that's characterized as (again....this is speculation)....possibly not seeing things from another's perspective and who disrespects them (continually).


Gotcha.


----------



## canttrustu

uncool said:


> my mother didnt dress my wife down. My wife chewed my mothers butt off one day over the phone. My moms ear had to have been bleeding it was so bad. My wife said my mother was crying. I overheard it all.
> When haven't I stood by my wife's side? maybe I dont understand what you're saying.


Ok. Thats not the way I understood what you wrote. I must need to re read it. My apologies. And btw- no sex for 6 mos is ridiculous under most ANY circumstances IF she wants a marriage at all. JMO.


----------



## alte Dame

I think your W has painted herself into a corner after all these years and it's possible that her pride will never let her mend the rift with your family. This is, in my opinion, disrespect on her part after all these years. What your brother did was egregious, but her dispute with your mother could easily have been addressed once the wounds weren't so fresh. She should have tried that for your sake.

I think you have a general problem of dug-in, established attitudes. The sexless marriage also points to serious problems.

You can draw a line in the sand and insist that she go to counseling and that the counseling result in real solutions (or at least good faith effort at solutions). 

You have real problems here.


----------



## uncool

Cosmos said:


> This sort of thing can be very hard to deal with, OP, and it's a pity that there hadn't been some sort of family counseling at the time...
> 
> Perhaps your M was insensitive saying what she did to your W, and I'm sure it angered your W a lot, but it's just very sad that all this wasn't put to rest years ago.
> 
> Have you considered MC?


wife won't go to MC. She will only see our bishop (church leader who councils people). The problem with our relationship is she would't speak to me or communicate with me at all about our marriage. So we went to one session together with our bishop (church leader). I was accused of not being a good listener. So I agreed in advance to have a "roasting" session so to speak. Where she could just lay it all on me while I listened. It was brutal. She told me she's been so cold to me for years hoping that I'd leave her. So I did leave her after that then she begged me to come back. I'm back now but she's being cold again. Topic for another thread. I still love my wife but am learning to fall out of love with her. It's hard but you gotta do it.



canttrustu said:


> Something here still just isnt adding up. So bc your brother inappropriately touched your daughter 17 yrs ago-your W basically hates you and your MIL????? *yes* Thats really what youre saying here. I can most certainly understand her having NOTHING to do wiht your brother-EVER. But I dont understand what that has to do with cutting you off sexually or never speaking to your MIL again????
> 
> Surely there is some filler here.....


yes I don't get it either. I was I had more information of "filler" for you. That's why I'm on this website.



mkgal1 said:


> This is just conjecture on my part, but I don't think it's just that incident that erupted years ago that's the main issue. I think it's probably an overall feeling that no one is on your wife's side and that she's always expected to "get over it" and "move on". It seems to me that typically the people that suggest that ("let's just move on and get past that") are often the ones that are causing most of the damage.
> 
> You talk about this as if it all goes back to 14 years ago......but, you already mentioned a recent encroachement (your mom coming to your home, and your wife being judged for leaving). If there's been pressure for fourteen years that your wife, "just get over the past and move on"......while she is being disrespected (in the present).........that doesn't give a person much security that the future would be any different than the past ever was. To me......it seems that the fourteen year period has only given your wife *more* reason to believe that things aren't going to improve unless someone (hopefully you, OP) stands up for her and understands her perspective.


 no, my wife is not being judged or disrespected by my mother. I felt I have stood up for her. If I was wrong and I haven't done it good enough, then how should I have done it?



canttrustu said:


> Ummmmmm- because he touched his 2 yr old inappropriately.


 3 reasons:
- he violated my kid and me (since it was my own blood)
- He's not all "there" in his head and is a weirdo. He operates on about a 12yr old level and isn't someone I relate with. 
-because it wouldn't look good to my wife to be buddies with someone who fondled her kid.


----------



## canttrustu

uncool said:


> wife won't go to MC. She will only see our bishop (church leader who councils people). The problem with our relationship is she would't speak to me or communicate with me at all about our marriage. So we went to one session together with our bishop (church leader). I was accused of not being a good listener. So I agreed in advance to have a "roasting" session so to speak. Where she could just lay it all on me while I listened. It was brutal. She told me she's been so cold to me for years hoping that I'd leave her. So I did leave her after that then she begged me to come back. I'm back now but she's being cold again. Topic for another thread. I still love my wife but am learning to fall out of love with her. It's hard but you gotta do it.
> 
> 
> yes I don't get it either. I was I had more information of "filler" for you. That's why I'm on this website.
> 
> no, my wife is not being judged or disrespected by my mother. I felt I have stood up for her. If I was wrong and I haven't done it good enough, then how should I have done it?
> 
> 3 reasons:
> - he violated my kid and me (since it was my own blood)
> - He's not all "there" in his head and is a weirdo. He operates on about a 12yr old level and isn't someone I relate with.
> -because it wouldn't look good to my wife to be buddies with someone who fondled her kid.


.....HER kid?????


----------



## Thundarr

mkgal1 said:


> The thing is.....there's a difference between "playing the role" of Mr. Nice guy.....and truly understanding and supporting your wife. It (to me) sounds like a points earning thing. I wonder if you remind her of this often (in ways like, "well......I haven't been able to go see my relatives for YEARS because of YOU.")
> 
> That doesn't sound like true support over the years. I'm sorry to be so blunt. It just sounds like a heap of resentment festering.
> 
> It sounds like they didn't have to ask her, because you had already filled them in (happily so.....because then you could give them the glasses in which to perceive their daughter).


That comment seems one sided and harsh to me. Fourteen years is too long for two adults not to find common ground. I would have never made it this long in marriage without some kind of compromise between mom and wife.


----------



## mkgal1

Starstarfish said:


> I could also be going way out in left field here, but - part of the bigger problem here seems to be an underlying current in your original post, OP about embarrassment and a desire to not address problems head on. As your post notes in quite a few places how "it's difficult" and "it's uncomfortable" and "I don't want to get into it."
> 
> Which, is the same attitude on the thread - that it's a private matter and you don't want to talk about here. Which, is fine ultimately. *But - I think this is is one of the core reasons that for 14 years, this issue has never been properly addressed*. It's a big open secret - everyone knows the truth (how many people in your family do you feel actually don't know the background at this point) - but no one really talks about it. It almost seems to be a test about what excuse you'll make up about why she's not there, so no one has to get to the heart of the matter - as that would be embarrassing and unpleasant.
> 
> Which I'm wondering (again could be totally wrong)- *is this a recurring theme in other parts of your life? Do you and the wife have difficulty communicating, because you don't like to have "difficult" or "uncomfortable" conversations - are you avoidant? Is this part of your "rocky" marriage*?


This is what adds up in my mind (and in speculating). It also seems that there's a lot of criticism and judgement for how she (uncool's wife) responds to things. That makes sincere communication difficult (and could be part of the Bishop's conclusion that was drawn about him being a poor listener.)

Time *doesn't* heal all wounds.......actual resolutions do (validation and a halt to damaging behaviors).


----------



## uncool

I know it's long but here's my time line.

1994 -my wife was great horny girlfriend and dated a year before we got married
-wife quit being horny after wedding never to be horny again but still acted like she loved me for a while
-had kids
1997-mother offended my wife after incident.
1999-wife appeared to get over it a year or so later and attended events with my mother and family for a few years. 
2003-had kid#4 wife distanced her self from me emotionaly and physically. 
-said it was because she was afraid she would get pregnant again
-2004 bought her a 10yr copper IUD birth control... still nothing
-2006 turns me down for simple weekend dates. told me it was because I was around her to often with my home office
-2007 moved out to an expensive office and was rarely home hoping she'd miss me more. Didn't miss me at all. 
-2008 said she hated sex cause she felt fat at 140lbs & wasn't comfortable with her body
-2009 wife started working out twice a day and eating healthy.
-2010 wife is now smoking hot at 106lbs and wears size 1-2
-wife finally says she feels preasured for intimacy and that sex is all I want. I get the message loud and clear and back off completely. I don't touch her for 6-8months
-wife see's a private councelor about her issues. Wife won't even talk to me at all for any reason. I'm broken hearted.
-wife ignores our anniversary and stands me up for the third year in a row. I go out to dinner at her favoriet restaurant alone and give her dozen red roses to the homeless lady on the streat.
-with nothing else to consider but divorce. I am desperate so I sneak a peak at her journal she always writes in for some clue to whats going on with my marriage. She writes that as soon as the last kid is out of the house then she's leaving me. that she can't stand being married and wants to be a single mom. Also writes how happy she'd be if my brother and mother died.
-2011 I get an apartment and move out. Wife doesn't know I've even left for over a week after I'd gone. Didn't even notice all my stuff was gone. I mail her a letter about why I left
-I'm at the deepest low in my whole life.
-single ladies at my new apartment complex take immediate notice in me and start flirting and inviting me over for dinner. It was great! I found out that I wasn't really an unattractive man after all! I still had it! Women were still attracted to me !
-wife cries and begs me to come back
-I move back home
-wife starts acting horny. I don't buy it. I'm disgusted in her
-sex stops after 2 months.
-2012 no interest in sex any more again
-I invite her out on a simple date to go get an icecream. declined. Says she's glad I'm back but not in love with me again yet.
-I get join a program for broken husbands that shows them how to get their wives to like them again. Not working
-wife is still nice and pleasant to me in conversation... just no affection.
-wife is diagnosed with a medical thyroid issue called hashimoto's disease. One of the side effects listed on the disease is "decreased libido". She then says this is why she hates affection. I don't buy it. I think it's an excuse because her sister has hashimotos also but is always affectionate with her husband even in public. She's always kissing and hugging him and take trips w/each other.
-comes to bed with her clothes on even though I have no plans to touch her. Says it's cause she's cold even though I offer to snuggle w/her and warm her up
-tells me the only reason she wanted me to move back in was so the kids wouldn't freak out.
-old girlfriend from highschool contacts me on facebook and tells me she's divorced. Starts sending me private messages hinting how she'd love to find another man. Starts flirting with me in eamil. I enjoy this but I shouldn't right?
-2013 I start posting on this forum again weighing my options


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> This is what adds up in my mind (and in speculating). It also seems that there's a lot of criticism and judgement for how she (uncool's wife) responds to things. That makes sincere communication difficult (and could be part of the Bishop's conclusion that was drawn about him being a poor listener.)
> 
> Time *doesn't* heal all wounds.......actual resolutions do (validation and a halt to damaging behaviors).


No there's not been any criticism or judgement at all besides my posts on this forum. 
Communication? I only wish she' communicate with me. I mostly resort to guessing mind reading but it's kinda hard. 
Yes she told the bishop I was a poor listener. I told him I'd do whatever it took to get her back. So he set up the meeting for me to "listen" to her. Like I said it was brutal. But I heard her complaints and sat there listened to her w/out speaking back. I took one punch after another. After that session I was even accused of not listening again. I said I heard and comprehended everything she said. I then found out that her definition of listening really meant "agreeing" with her. So the session was mildly successful. I told her I'd work hard at listening to her and thanked for for telling me where to start. And she agreed to talk and communicated with me more so I would know what was going on with her. After a few weeks I asked her for a report of how I was doing and she said I was doing a lot better. (even though I felt I hadn't done anything different than before)


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> -wife starts acting horny. I don't buy it. I'm disgusted in her
> -sex stops after 2 months.


I doubt you kept that hidden (even if you wanted to). What'd you come back for, if you weren't going to accept her invitations for sex?


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> No there's not been any criticism or judgement at all *besides my posts on this forum.*
> Communication? I only wish she' communicate with me. I mostly resort to guessing mind reading but it's kinda hard.
> Yes she told the bishop I was a poor listener. I told him I'd do whatever it took to get her back. So he set up the meeting for me to "listen" to her. Like I said it was brutal. But I heard her complaints and sat there listened to her w/out speaking back. I took one punch after another. After that session I was even accused of not listening again. I said I heard and comprehended everything she said. I then found out that her definition of listening really meant "agreeing" with her. So the session was mildly successful. I told her I'd work hard at listening to her and thanked for for telling me where to start. And she agreed to talk and communicated with me more so I would know what was going on with her. After a few weeks I asked her for a report of how I was doing and she said I was doing a lot better. (even though I felt I hadn't done anything different than before)


I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that attitude eeks out into your everyday life and interaction with her. This too (I bet she can sense the attitude):



> old girlfriend from high school contacts me on Facebook and tells me she's divorced. Starts sending me private messages hinting how she'd love to find another man. Starts flirting with me in eamil. I enjoy this but I shouldn't right?


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> I doubt you kept that hidden (even if you wanted to). What'd you come back for, if you weren't going to accept her invitations for sex?


mkgal I'm sure you're a valuable asset to this forum but I believe you jump to conclusions to easily.
My wife and I were both virgins until after we got married. Somebody can be horny and not have sex. Are you still disgusted with my wife now ?



.


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say that attitude eeks out into your everyday life and interaction with her. This too (I bet she can sense the attitude):


You can think that all you want. But I know inside myself that I'm not. I'm actually a pretty mellow quiet guy. I'm the one who's been pretty quiet while i've had to put up with attitude from my wife. My wife is the controlling type that can't control her mouth most of the time.



.


----------



## Prodigal

Everyone here has a right to their opinions. I may not agree with them, but they have a right to say what they feel.

uncool, I feel for you. You sound like a stand-up, decent man. What your brother did was reprehensible. Your mother did the right thing in reporting it to the police.

What bothers me so much is your brother committed this disgusting act. Nobody else did. He alone owns that; not your entire family.

Okay, your mom might have said the wrong thing at the wrong time. But your wife is holding some extremely deep resentments, IMO. You've mentioned several times that your wife has seen the bishop. I'm making an assumption that you are a member of a Christian denomination. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So, uncool, are you committed to staying in a sexless marriage with your wife? Please believe me ... if you are, I'm not going to rag on you. Your life. Your choices.


----------



## uncool

Prodigal said:


> EI'm making an assumption that you are a member of a Christian denomination.... are you committed to staying in a sexless marriage with your wife? Please believe me ... if you are, I'm not going to rag on you. Your life. Your choices.


yes christian

not so much that I love a sexless marriage.. but that I keep thinking it will change. She keeps giving me little glimmers of hope leading me on I guess. Yes I suppose its the price I'm paying for trying to keep my family together.


----------



## Starstarfish

This is a really deep problem. And - like other posters I seriously doubt this is solvable without counseling - both marriage counseling and potentially individual counseling. 

Also - if the daughter previously mentioned was the abused child, and when she asks why her mother dislikes grandma and you said you aren't sure - does this mean this hasn't been discussed with her? As a lot of people can attest to on this thread - previous sexual abuse can crop up later. Has this been considered? Who knows the age at which people remember those kinds of things. 

Also - with the new information, you have a lot more going on here than your wife not liking your mother. You two don't communicate, you don't have sex, and don't seem to basically like one another. You are moving towards potential EA territory with your now divorced ex on Facebook, you enjoyed telling her parents how awful she is. 

This sounds like kind of a mess, and unless you are both willing to go to counseling and/or in other ways look to address it - I'm honestly unsure what else can be done.


----------



## uncool

Starstarfish said:


> This is a really deep problem. And - like other posters I seriously doubt this is solvable without counseling - both marriage counseling and potentially individual counseling. *Agreed*
> 
> ...You two don't communicate *oh I communicate plenty, but yes there's not a normal 2-way communication where she participates*
> 
> You are moving towards potential EA territory with your now divorced ex on Facebook *no i wouldn't have sex w/anyone unless I was married to them*
> 
> you enjoyed telling her parents how awful she is. *huh ? well I'd like to but no I haven't done that*


answered u in bold


----------



## Prodigal

uncool said:


> .. but that I keep thinking it will change. She keeps giving me little glimmers of hope leading me on I guess.


I hear ya. I've lived with shreds of hope for years. The thing is, I finally realized that hoping things will change is wishful, what-if thinking.

We are dealing with the here and now. That is what-is thinking. You have a wife who is consumed with hurt, which has metastasized into hatred for your entire family. 

My gut instinct is telling me that when you assert yourself and say, "Enough!" she backs down and wants you to be with her. As soon as she's comfy again, she kicks you back to the curb.

That is her agenda. And it doesn't sound particularly healthy. I lived with my alcoholic husband for years. I thought I was a total failure as a wife if I left, so I stayed and witnessed him decend into the depths of his addiction. It was lonely, scarey, and a no-win situation.

He didn't want help. He still doesn't want help. Assuming your wife identifies herself as a Christian, I'm sure you realize her behavior is anything but. So, that puts the onus of responsibility on your plate. There are times we have to confront.

You have an undiapered elephant in your living room. It stinks. No, I'm not saying your wife has to forgive your brother. But she has to find healing and peace. Apparently, that isn't forthcoming.

I think you may want to reconsider moving out again and not coming home until she gets solid help for her issues. Don't get sucked in if she offers sex or improved communication. Let her get help. If she refuses, live apart.


----------



## alte Dame

Marriage is supposed to be a loving and supportive environment. This you definitely do not have.

Marriage is not supposed to be an emotional prison. This you do have.

If you were my brother or son, I would urge you to leave and find some happiness for yourself. There's only so much you can do to lead your W to a better marriage. She isn't owning her part of your problems.

This is sad beyond belief. You leave your W and she doesn't notice for a week? The issue with your mother is all connected in your W's mind, no doubt, but I absolutely don't believe it's something that you can fix. You keep trying to fix yourself, but she's the one who is broken.

I would leave and urge her to get counseling.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> mkgal I'm sure you're a valuable asset to this forum but I believe you jump to conclusions to easily.
> My wife and I were both virgins until after we got married. Somebody can be horny and not have sex. Are you still disgusted with my wife now ?
> 
> 
> 
> .


Those were your words. I hadn't said *I* was disgusted.....you said *you* were. This was all posted in post #81:



uncool said:


> 2011 I get an apartment and move out. Wife doesn't know I've even left for over a week after I'd gone. Didn't even notice all my stuff was gone. I mail her a letter about why I left
> -I'm at the deepest low in my whole life.
> -single ladies at my new apartment complex take immediate notice in me and start flirting and inviting me over for dinner. It was great! I found out that I wasn't really an unattractive man after all! I still had it! Women were still attracted to me !
> -wife cries and begs me to come back
> -I move back home
> -wife starts acting horny. I don't buy it. I'm disgusted in her
> -sex stops after 2 months.
> -2012 no interest in sex any more again


----------



## Starstarfish

You don't need to have sex to have an emotional affair, you can read all about them on here - and many no doubt started out as harmless flirting. 

As for the parents thing, I took that from this comment:



> I was SOOOOO glad that I opened up the can of worms with her parents asking me why she wasn't going with me.


The over-emphasis there made me see that as a bit of a "neener-neener told you so" kind of moment. 

Which - I don't know, part of me wonders if it isn't the slightest bit possible that there is some transference going on. Is it possible that your wife was possibly abused as a child and that the event with your daughter set her off thinking about it? Is she transferring her feelings about it to your mother because addressing it otherwise is indeed, too difficult?

But again, if she isn't willing to see someone and talk about it, it might be impossible to get to the bottom of all this.


----------



## EleGirl

Uncool,

Here’s my take on this situation.

You and your wife have every right in the world to be upset with your brother and since you know him, you two can of course decide if you think he’s grown beyond something very bad he did as a 13 yr old. 

But your wife’s many year hate of your mother, who did the right thing in calling the police, makes no sense at all really. Her attacking your mother in the manner you describe was also out of hand. But I think your wife has learned that this anger is very useful to her. It’s a big club that she gets to beat you up with often and she can control you and your world with it.

Your wife has used this incident with your mother to not only stop all of her contact with your family but to make it near impossible for you have relationships with anyone in your family. 

When a person clings to anger, it’s usually because the anger gives them some kind of power or control. Her is directed at your mother (and thus your entire extended family) and you. She’s also negatively influencing your friendships. The net effect is that this gives her tremendous control/power. She is controlling you, keeping your tied to her because you have lost a lot of your external support system. This is something that emotionally abusive people do. Once you are isolated she can mistreat you and you have not one to turn to for support. Her control is complete. 

She’s done a good job of this as well. She’s mean, cold, withholds all sex and affection, etc etc. And you stay because you have been beat down by this.

The reason that she will not tell you what’s going on with her, won’t go to counseling, won’t work to improve things is that she likes this isolated world she controls. She’s in her comfort zone.

I think what you did on the holidays was a very good thing. When a person is as disrespectful and mean to their spouse as your wife is, they should be exposed to the world in a similar manner that we often advise people to expose their WS. Generally when a person is mistreated by their spouse they hide it to the world. They tell no one. This actually helps the disrespect and mistreatment to continue. So your wife has been cutting you off from your extended family for years. But she hid it from her family, even to the point of misleading them into thinking that you both were spending the holidays with your family. She does not want her family to know what she’s doing. This is a very telling thing.

Your wife is not going to stop this behavior. You cannot change her. You can only change the way you interact with her. 
There are several things that I see that make me think that divorcing her is your best bet. She refuses to even discuss the problems, much less work on them. Her disrespect and abuse of you is getting worse as time goes on. Your marriage is now sexless.. this is a form of spousal abuse by her. She has written things in her diary that make it clear that she is just using you for support right now. And you are profoundly unhappy. These are all good reasons to leave. 

Also you say that in her diary she talks about leaving you when the children are out of high school. That translates to “she will stay around and barely put up with you” until our marriage is considered long term by the courts. Then she will get lifelong spousal support. What a deal for her. Not such a good deal for you.

I don’t know what state you live in, but in some of them if you have been married over 20 years then lifelong spousal support is reality. Does she work outside the home? If so what % of the joint income does she earn? In some cases you could end up having to give her 1/3 to ½ of your income for the rest of your life while she would not be required to work at all. 

This is a woman who does not seem to have any love for you. Why would she stay uncles there is a gain for her in doing so?


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> Those were your words. I hadn't said *I* was disgusted.....you said *you* were. This was all posted in post #81:


ok gottcha and I apologize for thinking you meant something else

yes I was disgusted at her sudden fake sex drive just to get me back. I had to explain to her that orgasm isn't why I left her.




.


----------



## uncool

Starstarfish said:


> ...part of me wonders if it isn't the slightest bit possible that there is some transference going on. Is it possible that your wife was possibly abused as a child and that the event with your daughter set her off thinking about it? Is she transferring her feelings about it to your mother because addressing it otherwise is indeed, too difficult?
> 
> But again, if she isn't willing to see someone and talk about it, it might be impossible to get to the bottom of all this.


transference is possible I guess.
No, I don't believe she was ever abused as a child. Our bishop told me he already asked her this.


----------



## uncool

EleGirl said:


> You and your wife have every right in the world to be upset with your brother and since you know him, you two can of course decide if you think he’s grown beyond something very bad he did as a 13 yr old. *yes he has grown beyond. In fact his newborn is in the NICU center right now at the hospital and I've heard how this has affected him. My wife even got christmas presents for his kids and wife (but not him). So yes pointing out to my wife that her daughters abuser has changed would NOT work well in my favor. It would show I have sympathy for the abuser. So I'll just keep it to myself
> *
> But your wife’s many year hate of your mother, who did the right thing in calling the police, makes no sense at all really. Her attacking your mother in the manner you describe was also out of hand. But I think your wife has learned that this anger is very useful to her. It’s a big club that she gets to beat you up with often and she can control you and your world with it. *agreed*
> 
> Your wife has used this incident with your mother to not only stop all of her contact with your family but to make it near impossible for you have relationships with anyone in your family.
> 
> When a person clings to anger, it’s usually because the anger gives them some kind of power or control. Hers is directed at your mother (and thus your entire extended family) and you. She’s also negatively influencing your friendships. *well sort of. She doesnt really tell me who I can hang with* The net effect is that this gives her tremendous control/power. She is controlling you, keeping your tied to her because you have lost a lot of your external support system. *I see where you're going with this, butl I do have people to support me... she's just said that our marriage is none of their business and has banned me from talking to them about it. Which I agree with to a degree.*
> 
> She’s done a good job of this as well. She’s mean, cold, withholds all sex and affection, etc etc. And you stay because you have been beat down by this. *yes*
> 
> The reason that she will not tell you what’s going on with her, won’t go to counseling, won’t work to improve things is that she likes this isolated world she controls. She’s in her comfort zone.
> 
> I think what you did on the holidays was a very good thing. When a person is as disrespectful and mean to their spouse as your wife is, they should be exposed to the world in a similar manner that we often advise people to expose their WS. Generally when a person is mistreated by their spouse they hide it to the world. They tell no one. This actually helps the disrespect and mistreatment to continue. So your wife has been cutting you off from your extended family for years. But she hid it from her family, even to the point of misleading them into thinking that you both were spending the holidays with your family. She does not want her family to know what she’s doing. This is a very telling thing. *true*
> 
> Your wife is not going to stop this behavior. You cannot change her. You can only change the way you interact with her.
> There are several things that I see that make me think that divorcing her is your best bet. She refuses to even discuss the problems, much less work on them. Her disrespect and abuse of you is getting worse as time goes on. Your marriage is now sexless.. this is a form of spousal abuse by her. She has written things in her diary that make it clear that she is just using you for support right now. And you are profoundly unhappy. These are all good reasons to leave.
> 
> Also you say that in her diary she talks about leaving you when the children are out of high school. That translates to “she will stay around and barely put up with you” *good point and I agree* until our marriage is considered long term by the courts. Then she will get lifelong spousal support. What a deal for her. Not such a good deal for you.
> 
> I don’t know what state you live in, but in some of them if you have been married over 20 years then lifelong spousal support is reality. *year #19 right now yikes..I'll have to check what my states rules are* Does she work outside the home? If so what % of the joint income does she earn? *about 25%* In some cases you could end up having to give her 1/3 to ½ of your income for the rest of your life while she would not be required to work at all.
> 
> This is a woman who does not seem to have any love for you. Why would she stay unless there is a gain for her in doing so?


I agree with most everything here.. but she does encourage me and my children to see my family members. Just not with her.
as usual your post is very helpful to me and will consider a lot of things you've mentioned
thank you


----------



## uncool

So I appreciate the insights and takes on what to do with my marriage. And you're right my wife is a real biznatch to me most of the time. I've bought in to a program over at marriedandhappy.com that teaches men how to be attractive to their wives again. It teaches us guys how to recognize and treat unacceptable behavior on the spot... and how women actually start respecting men who do so. It's sort of working but usually takes about a year so they say depending on how stubborn the wife is. 
A few days ago my wife yelled at me in front of the kids something that was rude and totally uncalled for. I stopped her on the spot and told me she wasn't allowed to speak to me like that especially in front of the kids. She shut her mouth and shunned away... still steaming... but she stopped. Yesterday morning she apologized to me for yelling at me. This might not seem like a big deal to some. But I can't remember the last time she apologized. Last night my wife was a real sweetheart and spoke pleasantly to me and brought dinner to me at my office and laughed and joked with me and actually came and sat next to me watching TV last night. I don't know if some of you were praying for me or her or what but that's a milestone accomplishment in my eyes. Of course she still sleeps with her clothes on and won't snuggle or touch me w/a 10ft pole... but I've put that concern off to the side right now and hope that will come later...because I really want my marriage to work and I believe baby steps are the key

My original post talks about how I need ideas on how to mend the relationship between my wife and mother. This is still what I'd like to get out of my thread. Any Ideas?

I believe somehow if I can start accomplishing this that my marriage could get back on track.


----------



## richie33

Uncool life is too short. Find happiness. You deserve it, seem liked you lived a real bumpy ride with this woman.


----------



## alte Dame

uncool said:


> My original post talks about how I need ideas on how to mend the relationship between my wife and mother. This is still what I'd like to get out of my thread. Any Ideas?
> 
> I believe somehow if I can start accomplishing this that my marriage could get back on track.


You want concrete comments on how to deal with the rift between your W and your mother. I've already said that I think your W needs professional help. As far as what a spouse can do, my impulses are probably not what you would do. 

FWIW, I would read her a short and sweet riot act. I would say:

"This has gone on long enough and I won't tolerate it anymore. I don't want a spouse who can behave this way and put me in such an embarrassing, painful position year after year. I believe you never stop to think what this does to me. So, it stops now or we don't go on."

People are different, I know, but that's what I would do.


----------



## uncool

alte Dame said:


> You want concrete comments on how to deal with the rift between your W and your mother. I've already said that I think your W needs professional help. As far as what a spouse can do, my impulses are probably not what you would do.
> 
> FWIW, I would read her a short and sweet riot act. I would say:
> 
> "This has gone on long enough and I won't tolerate it anymore. I don't want a spouse who can behave this way and put me in such an embarrassing, painful position year after year. I believe you never stop to think what this does to me. So, it stops now or we don't go on."
> 
> People are different, I know, but that's what I would do.


thanks !


----------



## Starstarfish

Unfortunately, Uncool - you cannot force your wife to like your mother, nor to forgive her. And personally, I'd work on improving your immediate family dynamic (you/wife/kids) before I'd work on her getting along with your mother. Perhaps eventually if your dynamic improves, your wife might be at the point to let it go. But if you don't fix the problems between you and the wife first, and try and press the matter, you are likely to just entrench her opinion further, and reverse any progress the two of you are making. 

You and your kids see your family. She doesn't stop you from doing so, nor demand that you don't. While people might ask questions and it might be uncomfortable and leaves you feeling a bit lonely. If you want to see them more often - work on seeing them more often. Decide beforehand what answer you'll give people, "Me and x, y, z (your kid's names) are here, and looking to enjoy your company, let's leave it at that and have a good time." 

If they love and respect you, they'll accept that and let it go, rather than stir the pot.


----------



## janefw

Starstarfish said:


> Unfortunately, Uncool - you cannot force your wife to like your mother, nor to forgive her. And personally, I'd work on improving your immediate family dynamic (you/wife/kids) before I'd work on her getting along with your mother. Perhaps eventually if your dynamic improves, your wife might be at the point to let it go. But if you don't fix the problems between you and the wife first, and try and press the matter, you are likely to just entrench her opinion further, and reverse any progress the two of you are making.
> 
> You and your kids see your family. She doesn't stop you from doing so, nor demand that you don't. While people might ask questions and it might be uncomfortable and leaves you feeling a bit lonely. If you want to see them more often - work on seeing them more often. Decide beforehand what answer you'll give people, "Me and x, y, z (your kid's names) are here, and looking to enjoy your company, let's leave it at that and have a good time."
> 
> If they love and respect you, they'll accept that and let it go, rather than stir the pot.


From reading the rest of the thread, I agree that the marital relationship is more important than the wife/mil issue. 

This was a great post, very very good advice. :smthumbup:


----------



## Hicks

You found out what works.

Leaving.

Defective people cannot always be fixed.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> ok gottcha and I apologize for thinking you meant something else
> 
> yes I was disgusted at her sudden fake sex drive just to get me back. I had to explain to her that orgasm isn't why I left her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Didn't you say you had come back......and, that she was "horny" and you weren't "buying it"? Why'd you assume it was fake and with ill motive? Maybe it was sincere?

What I had asked is.....why did you come back if you were going to reject her and were "disgusted" by her? (I apologize if I have the timing of the events off). I just don't believe that contempt (which is what disgust is) can possibly reside with genuine love. It's a hostile environment.....and something has to give or else it's just going to continue to be more of the same. I'm not attacking you.....but, I sincerely believe it should begin with you. In all honesty, your posts don't read that you are putting your wife's emotions and needs above your family of origin.

May I ask you something? It seems that your father is overbearing and doesn't allow for his wife (your mom) to get upset (speculating again....I admit I can be off). Were you allowed to express yourself growing up? If you thought rules were unfair (or harsh)...........could you discuss that with your parents? Did you feel "heard" and understood?


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> Didn't you say you had come back......and, that she was "horny" and you weren't "buying it"? Why'd you assume it was fake and with ill motive? Maybe it was sincere? *it's because I found out it was fake and it did disgust me. She was on a rant last month and told me the only reason she asked me to come back was so the kids wouldn't freak out with me gone. So I felt that meant me moving back wasn't for her at all.*
> 
> What I had asked is.....why did you come back if you were going to reject her and were "disgusted" by her?* i wasnt planning on rejecting her at all. At that time I felt it was genuine but found out later it was a ploy* I just don't believe that contempt (which is what disgust is) can possibly reside with genuine love. *you're right* It's a hostile environment.....and something has to give or else it's just going to continue to be more of the same. I'm not attacking you.....but, I sincerely believe it should begin with you. In all honesty, your posts don't read that you are putting your wife's emotions and needs above your family of origin. *sorry it appears that way. How does it come across that way?*
> 
> May I ask you something? It seems that your father is overbearing and doesn't allow for his wife (your mom) to get upset *no, she can get upset... trust me I grew up with her and have learned to repect her* Were you allowed to express yourself growing up? *sort of as long as i didn't disrespect either of them* If you thought rules were unfair (or harsh)...........could you discuss that with your parents? *yes to a degree* Did you feel "heard" and understood? *yes*


 My parents were both very loving and told me they loved and appreciated me a lot while I was growing up. (just like their parents did to them) Very close knit & religeous family. My father was always very protective of my mother which isn't a bad thing. Whereas my wife's family seems to be similar but has streaks of bickering, disowning and hate on other relatives who cross them which is part of where my wife learned bad behavior. She thinks her parents are angels and has a hard time when I explain their short comings.
I had been hurt in previous dating relationships before I was married which is part of the reason I waited for a year before I agreed to marry my wife. I wanted to take a step back and make darn sure she was what I wanted and that her family wasn't too weird. All seemed good at that time.


----------



## janefw

uncool said:


> My parents were both very loving and told me they loved and appreciated me a lot while I was growing up. (just like their parents did to them) Very close knit & religeous family. My father was always very protective of my mother which isn't a bad thing. Whereas my wife's family seems to be similar but has streaks of bickering, disowning and hate on other relatives who cross them which is part of where my wife learned bad behavior. She thinks her parents are angels and has a hard time when I explain their short comings.


It seems to me that you believe that your parents are wonderful, and hers not so much, and you haven't hesitated to open her eyes to her parents shortcomings. It's a shame that no matter how wonderful your parents are, it didn't stop your mom from crossing the line when it came to advising your wife how to react to the abuse of her grandchild. 

You can't force forgiveness. It is freely given, or not at all. If your wife isn't willing to forgive - which evidently she isn't - you have to move on from there in your marriage, which means fixing your marriage, and not your wife's relationship with your mom.


----------



## Thundarr

uncool said:


> Whereas my wife's family seems to be similar but has streaks of bickering, disowning and hate on other relatives who cross them which is part of where my wife learned bad behavior. She thinks her parents are angels and has a hard time when I explain their short comings.


My wife's family (first marriage) was like that. It was a competition to see who in the family could hold their nose higher without drowning. And they didn't need much to be proud of either. It felt to me like they truly wanted the others to be broken or else they couldn't be happy. My wife included.

I'm gonna pat myself the back for not being where you are uncool and for not repeating the same disaster the second time around. Genuinly nice and respectful is so underrated. Even on TAM there are many who say they're nice to hubby or wife as if it's a prize. Isn't that what we are normally supposed to be. You need to be with a good hearted nice respectful person who's even more respectful to you.


----------



## Created2Write

EleGirl said:


> Uncool,
> 
> Here’s my take on this situation.
> 
> You and your wife have every right in the world to be upset with your brother and since you know him, you two can of course decide if you think he’s grown beyond something very bad he did as a 13 yr old.
> 
> But your wife’s many year hate of your mother, who did the right thing in calling the police, makes no sense at all really. Her attacking your mother in the manner you describe was also out of hand. But I think your wife has learned that this anger is very useful to her. It’s a big club that she gets to beat you up with often and she can control you and your world with it.
> 
> Your wife has used this incident with your mother to not only stop all of her contact with your family but to make it near impossible for you have relationships with anyone in your family.
> 
> When a person clings to anger, it’s usually because the anger gives them some kind of power or control. Her is directed at your mother (and thus your entire extended family) and you. She’s also negatively influencing your friendships. The net effect is that this gives her tremendous control/power. She is controlling you, keeping your tied to her because you have lost a lot of your external support system. This is something that emotionally abusive people do. Once you are isolated she can mistreat you and you have not one to turn to for support. Her control is complete.
> 
> She’s done a good job of this as well. She’s mean, cold, withholds all sex and affection, etc etc. And you stay because you have been beat down by this.
> 
> The reason that she will not tell you what’s going on with her, won’t go to counseling, won’t work to improve things is that she likes this isolated world she controls. She’s in her comfort zone.
> 
> I think what you did on the holidays was a very good thing. When a person is as disrespectful and mean to their spouse as your wife is, they should be exposed to the world in a similar manner that we often advise people to expose their WS. Generally when a person is mistreated by their spouse they hide it to the world. They tell no one. This actually helps the disrespect and mistreatment to continue. So your wife has been cutting you off from your extended family for years. But she hid it from her family, even to the point of misleading them into thinking that you both were spending the holidays with your family. She does not want her family to know what she’s doing. This is a very telling thing.
> 
> Your wife is not going to stop this behavior. You cannot change her. You can only change the way you interact with her.
> There are several things that I see that make me think that divorcing her is your best bet. She refuses to even discuss the problems, much less work on them. Her disrespect and abuse of you is getting worse as time goes on. Your marriage is now sexless.. this is a form of spousal abuse by her. She has written things in her diary that make it clear that she is just using you for support right now. And you are profoundly unhappy. These are all good reasons to leave.
> 
> Also you say that in her diary she talks about leaving you when the children are out of high school. That translates to “she will stay around and barely put up with you” until our marriage is considered long term by the courts. Then she will get lifelong spousal support. What a deal for her. Not such a good deal for you.
> 
> I don’t know what state you live in, but in some of them if you have been married over 20 years then lifelong spousal support is reality. Does she work outside the home? If so what % of the joint income does she earn? In some cases you could end up having to give her 1/3 to ½ of your income for the rest of your life while she would not be required to work at all.
> 
> This is a woman who does not seem to have any love for you. Why would she stay uncles there is a gain for her in doing so?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## KathyBatesel

I read through until pg. 6 when it seemed like things were devolving, so I may end up repeating something someone else has said. If so, I apologize. 

It sounds to me like you have two things going on. One is your wife's resentment over you, and one is your wife's reaction to what happened to your child. 

Because she resents you, it will make progress on the second matter difficult. 

I'll go out on a limb and say that it also sounds to me like your wife was touched inappropriately by someone and that she wasn't well-supported but instead, was told to move on and forget about it. 

It's not really your mom that she's angry about. It's about her own feelings of helplessness. Staying away and being hostile help her feel like she has some control over something that is simply TOO BIG for her to deal with directly. 

The only way I can think of to make any progress MIGHT be to sit down and tell your wife you want to support her the best you can as you ask for some support from her for your daughter and you. You can explain that her ongoing hostility has been noticed by daughter, and that it's putting you in a difficult position and you need your wife's input to address it. Explain that you don't know how to explain the hostility to your daughter, and ask her what she'd have you say. This can open the way to understanding where she's at. Ask a LOT of questions and dig into it as much as you can without passing judgment in any way. When you've exhausted the subject, tell her what you believe she's tried to explain using your own words. Once she feels that you understand, you can consider whether to leave things as they are or ask for some small step toward reconciliation.


----------



## janefw

KathyBatesel said:


> The only way I can think of to make any progress MIGHT be to sit down and tell your wife you want to support her the best you can as you ask for some support from her for your daughter and you. You can explain that her ongoing hostility has been noticed by daughter, and that it's putting you in a difficult position and you need your wife's input to address it. Explain that you don't know how to explain the hostility to your daughter, and ask her what she'd have you say. This can open the way to understanding where she's at. Ask a LOT of questions and dig into it as much as you can without passing judgment in any way. When you've exhausted the subject, tell her what you believe she's tried to explain using your own words. Once she feels that you understand, you can consider whether to leave things as they are or ask for some small step toward reconciliation.


I agree with this. This issue has to be sorted out between husband and wife, without all this family stuff constantly being intruded.


----------



## Blonde

> it's because I found out it was fake and it did disgust me. She was on a rant last month and told me the only reason she asked me to come back was *so the kids wouldn't freak out with me gone*. So I felt that meant *me moving back wasn't for her at all*.


I don't think it's a bad thing to put the children's needs above our own. If it was all about me, I would be long gone, but I feel that my children are better off with both of us under one roof and we will be sharing those children FOREVER- graduations, weddings, grandchildren... 

In my case as a Christian, when I was struggling really hard and wanted in the worst way to be out of my marriage, a verse of the Bible jumped off the page as if God was giving it to me as a personal message "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.” Mal 4:6


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

EleGirl said:


> I'm posting this because of the speculation and negative remarks that are starting because uncool (the OP) has not posted what his mother said.
> 
> Uncool is not trying to hide anything.
> 
> He PM'd me and told me what his mom said. What was said is related to something very private to the entire family, his extended family and his immediate family, and he's concerned about posting it here. I have suggested that he post it so he's thinking about doing that.
> 
> I can understand his reluctance to post but think it would be beneficial for him if he does.
> 
> It's not my place of course to divulge what was told to me in private.
> 
> I will hold of on any other comments until he does or does not post.


If its something this personal and bad, I can understand why the wife avoids the in laws. Words can really hurt and people mean what they say, especially when it slips out. 

I can't see how his parents like her now especially that she refuses to see them.

I've had family members do and say some pretty rotten things to me and I have really distanced myself from them.

I'm housebound and I rarely leave the house. This means I miss out on almost all family activities, including holidays. I'll stay home while hubby takes the kids. He's not at all upset since he understands what I go through day to day. It's been this way the last 5 years. This year and other years I spent Christmas Eve and Christmas Day alone. All other holidays are spent just with our own immediate family.


----------



## uncool

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I can't see how his parents like her now especially that she refuses to see them. *they don't hate her. They're not like that. They do however feel extremely sad and hurt when she constantly punishes them. They pray for her heart to be softened so that she can know they still love her*
> 
> I've had family members do and say some pretty rotten things to me and I have really distanced myself from them. *I supposed it depends on what they said to you. Have they paid the price yet? Do you plan on ever accepting them and socializing with them? or did they just plain old blow it with you?*


----------



## janefw

uncool said:


> I bet that poor bastard does not look forward to holidays or family functions.
> Have you asked him or has he told you about what he tells his family when they ask where you are or how his marriage is doing? or does he love you enough to lie for you and tell them that you're sick or something? Have any of your children asked him or been curious about why mom never comes? Do you still have a romantic relationship with him? or did you cut him off yet?


She said she is "housebound". Do you know what that means?


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> I don't think it's a bad thing to put the children's needs above our own. If it was all about me, I would be long gone, but I feel that my children are better off with both of us under one roof and we will be sharing those children FOREVER- graduations, weddings, grandchildren...
> 
> In my case as a Christian, when I was struggling really hard and wanted in the worst way to be out of my marriage, a verse of the Bible jumped off the page as if God was giving it to me as a personal message "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.” Mal 4:6


Am I selfish because I crave a normal relationship and my wife to cleave unto her husband? Have you told your husband that if you didn't have kids that you would have left him? or is that a secret? or is he still constantly trying to win your approval?

-------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 5:22
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands

Proverbs 21:19.
It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman.

1 Corinthians 7:1-40 (this isn't really a scripture so it doesn't count..it's just peices of a bunch of verses)
Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ...


----------



## uncool

janefw said:


> She said she is "housebound". Do you know what that means?


I thought I read household sorry


----------



## Prodigal

I'm going to suggest two book for you that may be of help. They are by Leslie Vernick - _The Emotionally Destructive Relationship_ and _How to Act Right When Your Spouse Acts Wrong_. Both books are available at Amazon, I believe. Mrs. Vernick completed her postgraduate work in biblical counseling and cognitive therapy.

Yes, you are quoting that wives are to submit to their husbands. I agree with this. However, men frequently misuse this verse and use it as a get-out-of-jail-free pass to abuse their wives. No, I don't think you are abusing your wife; on the contrary, she seems to be doing that to you. 

However (you knew that was coming, didn't you?), there are times when it is prudent to live separate if things really get bad. I'm not one to advocate divorce. That is up to the individual. But I gotta tell ya, uncool, I walked. I couldn't deal with the stonewalling, drama, and other lunacy I witnessed in my marriage. Divorce? No. But sometimes we have to remove ourselves from the situation in order to let God work at softening our partner's heart.

Just a suggestion you might want to chew on. And, P.S., I think Vernick's books might prove very helpful to you.


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> Am I selfish because I crave a normal relationship and my wife to cleave unto her husband? Have you told your husband that if you didn't have kids that you would have left him? or is that a secret? or is he still constantly trying to win your approval?


Nowhere in scripture is a wife told to "leave and cleave". That is only ever directed to husband. So you are putting the pants on your wife expecting that. It is your responsibility to leave your family of origin (FOO) and cleave to your wife (and "leaving" is much more than physically moving IMO. It means transferring your loyalty from FOO to wife) Your relationship with your mother versus your wife makes me question whether you have done this?

BTW Twas my husband who abandoned me and the children (went home to his mommy's, actually) and eventually came around and decided it was too much to lose. Long story and this is not my thread. But I stand by my opinion that your wife is right to stick with it for the sake of the children.

ETA: JFTR unlike your situation, we have never had a sexless marriage.


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> Nowhere in scripture is a wife told to "leave and cleave" *i didn't say that, you did* That is only ever directed to husband. So you are putting the pants on your wife expecting that.*so the Lord says that husbands are expected to cleave unto their wives.. but not vice-versa. This is not the teachings of the Lord I worship*
> 
> It is your responsibility to leave your family of origin (FOO) and cleave to your wife *and I have done that over and over and over again. I've now lived with my wife longer than I have ever lived with my parents*
> Your relationship with your mother versus your wife makes me question whether you have done this? *Can you please explain why you think this? What would make you think I'd rather be with my mom instead of a loving wife? what normal man would want that? I left when I was 18 never wanting to live there again not because I hated them and that they were awful people, but because I was now a man and wanted to go have my own life and family*
> 
> BTW Twas my husband who abandoned me and the children * no man would leave his wife for no reason which makes me wonder what you did to make him leave since you say you had a normal sexual marriage*. Long story and this is not my thread. But I stand by my opinion that your wife is right to stick with it for the sake of the children. *I wholeheartedly disagree that the wife should just fake it that she loves her husband just so the kids will have a father figure. This is a sick and abusive anti-husband and anti-marriage behavior *
> 
> ETA: JFTR unlike your situation, we have never had a sexless marriage *so you're doing him even though you don't love him anymore? does he know this?*.


I answered you in *bold* above

So you're saying women are to have their needs met by their husbands...and husbands are just there for their fathering skills only (aka sperm doners)



.


----------



## janefw

uncool said:


> .. and I have done that over and over and over again. I've now lived with my wife longer than I have ever lived with my parents


What do you mean that you have cleaved to your wife "over and over"? It should only take once. And living with your wife for however long is not the same as cleaving to her. It's a state of heart and mind, not a physical event.



> no man would leave his wife for no reason which makes me wonder what you did to make him leave since you say you had a normal sexual marriage


Seriously? You need to do some reading around on this forum alone, and you will see plenty of men leaving their wives. Whether they are leaving them because they don't want to be married, leaving them for another woman - whatever - there are reasons that have nothing to do with the wife "making him" leave.


----------



## uncool

janefw said:


> What do you mean that you have cleaved to your wife "over and over"? It should only take once. And living with your wife for however long is not the same as cleaving to her. It's a state of heart and mind, not a physical event.


 come on now I think most people know what I mean when I say I cleave unto my wife. I think we all know it's not a physical event.



janefw said:


> Seriously? You need to do some reading around on this forum alone, and you will see plenty of men leaving their wives. Whether they are leaving them because they don't want to be married, leaving them for another woman - whatever - there are reasons that have nothing to do with the wife "making him" leave.


 yes, I stand by what I said and I'll slightly rephrase it for you "no unretarded man would leave his wife for no reason" and I'm sorry you don't agree.


----------



## Blonde

> I wholeheartedly disagree that the wife should just fake it that she loves her husband just so the kids will have a father figure. This is a sick and abusive anti-husband and anti-marriage behavior


Hmmm. So that is what you think of your wife? No wonder her passion has died.

The scripture nowhere gives a wife the responsibility for agape love. That is only ever assigned to the husband. Again you are trying to put the pants on your wife!

Now, Titus 2 does talk about older women teaching younger women to be their husband’s friend. And I am my husband’s best friend. And I believe that as far as actions go, I have lived out love (Jesus ‘greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friend’) I have laid down my life in millions of ways, not the least of which is the wear and tear of bearing his 8 children.


----------



## Blonde

> .so the Lord says that husbands are expected to cleave unto their wives.. but not vice-versa. This is not the teachings of the Lord I worship


Well then I misunderstood you. I thought you went by the Bible not things you made up. 

I go by the Bible. The scriptures only ever tell husbands to leave and cleave, not wives. I think this is because women tend to have an inordinate clinginess toward their husbands. If you look for example, at cheating spouses on TAM, a woman who has been betrayed is much more likely to work through it and stay together than a man. We women are inordinately clingy which all started in Gen 3:16. God is too smart to add fuel to our sick clinginess by telling us on top of it that it is our responsibility for the “leave and cleave”.


----------



## Blonde

> no man would leave his wife for no reason which makes me wonder what you did to make him leave since you say you had a normal sexual marriage.


It was about like this:
Casting Crowns - American Dream (with lyrics) - YouTube

My husband’s job choice kept him chronically away from home for as long as 3 months at a stretch and the very first night at a hotel he dived right into internet porn, followed by strip clubs, then an affair. Accompanied by piles and heaps of neglect and abusiveness toward the children and I...

Slow Fade by Casting Crowns with lyrics - YouTube


----------



## mkgal1

Since you (uncool) quoted Scripture.....then, maybe this article will "speak" to you. 



> Are you struggling right now with one of your in-laws who has been intruding into your marriage? Or, have you allowed your own parent to interfere in your relationship with your spouse? If you are unsure about what I mean by these terms intruding and interfering, let me explain.
> 
> Are you the spouse that doesn’t understand why your mate has such an angry and resentful attitude when it comes to your parent’s influence in your marriage? If I’m speaking to you right now, please understand why your mate is so upset.
> 
> ..... he or she believes that your parents are invading private issues that should only be talked about or decided by you and your spouse alone.
> 
> Second, your mate views your unwillingness to stop these intrusions into your family as a betrayal. Your mate believes that every time you take your parents’ side or do nothing to stop your parents’ intrusion, you are betraying your vows to honor your mate above all others. Betrayal is one of the deepest offenses that can ever be inflicted upon the heart of your spouse. This betrayal will create tremendous anger and will drive you and your spouse further apart with each infraction.~Dealing With In-Laws


In my opinion.....this may be something good to share with your wife and ask her what she thinks of the article.....if it *does* express how she feels. It may be a good way for the two of you to be able to change the direction your headed.


----------



## uncool

dear Ms. Blonde.

Lets just agree to disagree. 

You think my wife has every reason to keep me in a sexless marriage for the soul reason we had kids together. And that she has every right not to love her husband anymore because you think the bible says it's ok. That's disgusting to me, I'm glad I don't go to your church where there's no hope for happiness among men. I disagree with your view.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> no man would leave his wife for no reason


Can't people be deceived by their own interpretations of something? Isn't that what "led astray" means?


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> So you're saying women are to have their needs met by their husbands...and husbands are just there for their fathering skills only (aka sperm doners)


Where did I ever say my husband meets my needs? I am his best friend but he is not mine. I have given up any expectations of him being able to meet my emotional needs. I have girlfriends for that.

As for fathering skills, to be brutally honest, the reasons I think it is better for our children for us to be under one roof has nothing to do with "fathering skills". I can protect them better when they are under my roof. I feel they are safer this way than off on "visitation" with a man who is capable of what he has done.


----------



## A Bit Much

> You think my wife has every reason to keep me in a sexless marriage for the soul reason we had kids together. And that she has every right not to love her husband anymore because you think the bible says it's ok. That's disgusting to me, I'm glad I don't go to your church where there's no hope for happiness among men. I disagree with your view.


I've been following this thread but this is my first time commenting.

Do you feel your wife is responsible for your happiness? Do you not feel free to seek that for yourself? I ask because in this last comment, it sounds like she's imprisoned you. You're a free man but you don't see yourself that way. Maybe I've misinterpreted you and if so I apologize.


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> dear Ms. Blonde.
> 
> Lets just agree to disagree.
> 
> You think my wife has every reason to keep me in a sexless marriage for the soul reason we had kids together. And that she has every right not to love her husband anymore because you think the bible says it's ok. That's disgusting to me, I'm glad I don't go to your church where there's no hope for happiness among men. I disagree with your view.


You have put words in my mouth. I think it is noble of your wife to lay down her life for her children.

But I also think a sexless marriage breaks the marriage vows and is grounds for divorce.

So, divorce her.
or, lay down your life for your children (if you think they are better of with both of you under one roof)


----------



## Thundarr

Blonde said:


> Where did I ever say my husband meets my needs? I am his best friend but he is not mine. I have given up any expectations of him being able to meet my emotional needs. I have girlfriends for that.
> 
> As for fathering skills, to be brutally honest, the reasons I think it is better for our children for us to be under one roof has nothing to do with "fathering skills". I can protect them better when they are under my roof. I feel they are safer this way than off on "visitation" with a man who is capable of what he has done.


uhh. You're depressing me Blonde. At least the thoughts of living in that environment sound grim for both of you. You know the interaction between you and your husband who you definitely have no respect for (maybe with good reason) is teaching your kids how to interact in relationships later on. It's a scary thought that they may repeat what they see in this case. That seems more dangerous than visitation.


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> the very first night at a hotel he dived right into internet porn, followed by strip clubs, then an affair. Accompanied by piles and heaps of neglect and abusiveness toward the children and I...


I'm sorry you married an un-normal retarded man. Seriously I do. If I were him I wouldn't even be tempted because I'd be looking forward to comming back home to you and would send you emails, phone calls, texts etc. to reinforce my devotion for you. 
There are better men out there. I encourage you to go find one.



mkgal1 said:


> In my opinion.....this may be something good to share with your wife and ask her what she thinks of the article.....if it *does* express how she feels. It may be a good way for the two of you to be able to change the direction your headed.
> Quote:
> Are you struggling right now with one of your in-laws who has been intruding into your marriage? *but she's not because there is no intrusion. I talk to my mother maybe 3 times a year tops*
> Or, have you allowed your own parent to interfere in your relationship with your spouse? *No, my mother doesn't touch or know anything about my relationship with my wife. Nor does she ever talk about it.*
> 
> Are you the spouse that doesn’t understand why your mate has such an angry and resentful attitude when it comes to your parent’s influence in your marriage? *again my parents have no influence on my marriage. They don't ask about it, they don't hint or imply anything about my marriage etc. They stay completely out of my marriage.*
> 
> 
> First, intrusive, pushy, interfering, and opinionated in-laws are upsetting to your spouse because he or she believes that your parents are invading private issues that should only be talked about or decided by you and your spouse alone. *Agreed, but luckily my parents aren't like that and don't ever say anything to either of us about our marriage. They both know that's a no-no *
> Your mate believes that every time you take your parents’ side *(I don't take my parents side)* you are betraying your vows to honor your mate above all others. *never betrayed my vows* Betrayal is one of the deepest offenses that can ever be inflicted upon the heart of your spouse. *agreed, and I do feel betrayed my my spouse* This betrayal will create tremendous anger and will drive you and your spouse further apart with each infraction *agreed*


yes I quoted scripture back to someone else who used it to reinforce their pro views to my sexless marriage


----------



## janefw

uncool said:


> come on now I think most people know what I mean when I say I cleave unto my wife. I think we all know it's not a physical event.


So, how can you have done that "over and over"?



> yes, I stand by what I said and I'll slightly rephrase it for you "no unretarded man would leave his wife for no reason" and I'm sorry you don't agree.


I don't understand why people feel the need to use the word "retard" in such a manner. Anyway .. yes, men leave for all kinds of reasons, and for no reason at all, other than they want to.


----------



## Thundarr

janefw said:


> So, how can you have done that "over and over"?


It's like anything else that people second guess and then have to reaffirm themselves. Every time he missed a family outing and was confused as to why 14 years later it's still not better, he had to reaffirm that wife comes before parents.

The same is true with other things like forgiveness. It's not a once and done thing. It rears it's head periodically at which point forgiveness diminishes and has to be reestablished.


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> I think it is noble of your wife to lay down her life for her children.
> 
> But I also think a sexless marriage breaks the marriage vows and is grounds for divorce.
> 
> So, divorce her.
> or, lay down your life for your children (if you think they are better of with both of you under one roof)


I don't believe it's an Either/Or scenario. I believe I could do both. If I found happiness elsewhere I could also be a good dad and "lay my life" down for them.
Keep in mind I started this thread to seek advice on how to deal with the discomfort I live with on a constant basis of my wife's harsh and rude disownment of my mother. The general consensus I got from posters was to work on my marriage first and that there'd be a chance my wife could cease her nastiness towards my mother later on. So this is what I'll focus on for now. 

you vote divorce. Got it


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> but she's not because there is no intrusion. I talk to my mother maybe 3 times a year tops


This issue itself is an ongoing "intrusion".....and it has to do with your mother. Maybe from *your* perspective there is no intrusion......but, sincerely, I would advise you to ask your wife how she feels about it. 

You already mentioned that a few days before writing this thread, your mom was coming from two hours away, and your wife "found out" she was coming......so, your wife left home (to be avoid your mother). Had you been the one to inform her? Why didn't you first ask your wife how she felt about your mother coming to your home? That is one example of an "intrusion" (regardless of how you see it......because I'm speculating your wife saw it as such. Most people don't like having to scurry out of their own home and having uninvited--by her---guests). Your home should be a "safe place" for all of you (you.....your wife.....your children).


----------



## janefw

Blonde said:


> So, divorce her.
> or, lay down your life for your children (if you think they are better of with both of you under one roof)





uncool said:


> you vote divorce. Got it


Such a disingenous response. You know perfectly well that's not what she said.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> Keep in mind I started this thread to seek advice on how to deal with the discomfort I live with on a constant basis of my wife's harsh and rude disownment of my mother. The general consensus I got from posters was to work on my marriage first and that there'd be a chance my wife could cease her nastiness towards my mother later on. So this is what I'll focus on for now.


That sounds like a great plan to me. I firmly believe that once your wife senses that you "have her back" and will not let others (including yourself) tear her down and tell her how she *should* respond to things........she will feel "safe" to go anywhere with you. The only reason she wouldn't is if there's too much damage that's been done. Fourteen years is a long time with unresolved conflict.


----------



## uncool

mkgal1 said:


> This issue itself is an ongoing "intrusion".....and it has to do with your mother. Maybe from *your* perspective there is no intrusion......but, sincerely, I would advise you to ask your wife how she feels about it.
> 
> You already mentioned that a few days before writing this thread, your mom was coming from two hours away, and your wife "found out" she was coming......so, your wife left home (to be avoid your mother). Had you been the one to inform her? Why didn't you first ask your wife how she felt about your mother coming to your home? That is one example of an "intrusion" (regardless of how you see it......because I'm speculating your wife saw it as such. Most people don't like having to scurry out of their own home) Your home should be a "safe place" for all of you (you.....your wife.....your children).


true, yes I didn't know they were coming. The were coming our way while they were going to catch a plane and thought it would be convenient to drop off the presents at the same time. They called me en route so that I could warn my wife. They then proceeded to dump the presents in the driveway so as not to intrude on or offend my wife (who wasn't there anyways)...


----------



## mkgal1

Uncool......you said this in response to the article speaking about not standing on your spouse's side is a betrayal:



> agreed, and I do feel betrayed my my spouse


Is it because you are in a sexless marriage that makes you feel betrayed? Or what?


----------



## uncool

see this is the crap I hate! (see my reply to post #141 above) 
I'm so sick of these huge giant @*^&# ing eggshells! its ridiculous, my kids think it's ridiculous and it has to stop!! If I were married to a loving wife who respected me and showed me love from time to time.. then I might have a different attitude! but she treats me like a freaking room mate AND expects me to put up with the disrespect she dishes out to anyone but her own family. My anniversary is coming again this month and I know she's going to blow me off again..... I'M DONE !


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> true, yes I didn't know they were coming. The were coming our way while they were going to catch a plane and thought it would be convenient to drop off the presents at the same time. They called me en route so that I could warn my wife. They then proceeded to dump the presents in the driveway so as not to intrude on or offend my wife (who wasn't there anyways)...


After they had called you to let you know they were on their way.....*how* did you wife find out they were coming by? It's not really up to them to not intrude......it's up to you to make sure they abide by boundaries that your wife feels comfortable with (not that your wife "rules"......but, it's her home as well.....and her privacy ought to be respected). Same thing about not inviting your brother to your home (alone with your children)....that's respecting everyone involved.


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> see this is the crap I hate! (see post #141 above)
> I'm so sick of these huge giant @*^&# ing eggshells! its ridiculous and my kids think it's ridiculous and it has to stop!! If I were married to a loving wife who respected me and showed me she respected me and loved from time to time.. then I might have a different attitude! but she treats me like a freaking room mate AND expects me to put up with the disrespect she dishes out to anyone but her own family. I'm done !


Then.....face it all head-on with your wife. Unravel it all.....get *all* the feelings out there in the open. It's not really "walking on eggshells" to value your wife's sense of privacy and security in her own home. 

You're using adjectives like, "loving wife" (and suggesting your wife *isn't*).....I think that's unfair. You seem to be gauging her love for you on how she accepts (or rejects) your mom (and your saying that's only 3 times/year). 

I imagine she feels the same way (that she'd like a husband that loves and accepts her as well). In order for it to be healed.....you *have to* go back to where the "infection" began----dig it out---expose it (discuss all the gory details....allowing each person to have their say, without judgment or criticism of how they feel....not arguing feelings)----and get rid of it (resolve things in a way where you have a plan that appeals to *both* of you).


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> They then proceeded to dump the presents in the driveway so as not to intrude on or offend my wife (who wasn't there anyways)..


This sounds passive aggressive.....and that actually provokes (naturally) anger in you (and......you in turn direct that anger towards you wife). That's not fair to her. You ought to be angry with them (for not handling that in a mature way that respects everyone----including YOU).


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> My anniversary is coming again this month and I know she's going to blow me off again..... I'M DONE !


"My anniversary"? Isn't it "our" anniversary?


----------



## EleGirl

mkgal1 said:


> This sounds passive aggressive.....and that actually provokes (naturally) anger in you (and......you in turn direct that anger towards you wife). That's not fair to her. You ought to be angry with them (for not handling that in a mature way that respects everyone----including YOU).


What is not mature about droping off presents and not coming into the house? Seems to me that he parents did respect his wife's wishes by not coming into the house.


----------



## janefw

Dumping gifts in the driveway? Extremely immature. Why not mail them? Why not request that the husband meet them at another location that was not his house? Surely they knew they had a plane to catch well in advance of that morning? That behavior is nothing short of petulant.


----------



## Thundarr

EleGirl said:


> What is not mature about droping off presents and not coming into the house? Seems to me that he parents did respect his wife's wishes by not coming into the house.


My first thought reading that is; another example of respect being shown by one side only. Repect from OP to disassociate from his family to a large degree, respect from the mother to want to get past this (if we believe that which I'm starting to), respect of the parents to bring the presents but not come in the home thier not welcomed in even though she wasn't there. That last one's called self respect by the way.

There's a lot more projection going on in this thread than I've seen in a while. I guess it makes sense as MILs are notoriously difficult and husbands are notorious for not standing by their wifes over mom. In this case though, we're talking about uncool, his wife, his mother, his family. Not other MILs who we all know can be impossible. We're also talking about an extremely long time to hold a grudge and a sexless marriage.

uncool, when you think in terms of NEVER (my kids will never have divorced parents, I'll never spank, I'll never fill in the blank) you set yourself up for disaster. There's a certain level of cooporation that's just needed by both partners and it can't be made up for by one trying extra hard. I think you need to be willing to lose your wife and very content that it may happen. If she and you are both willing to meet half way and if divorce on the table as an option then you have something to work with. As it stands, you've lasted longer than most would have expected.


----------



## Thundarr

janefw said:


> Dumping gifts in the driveway? Extremely immature. Why not mail them? Why not request that the husband meet them at another location that was not his house? Surely they knew they had a plane to catch well in advance of that morning? That behavior is nothing short of petulant.


Disrespectful to who? The lady who wasn't there who probably doesn't even know. Should they have her sign COD since it does indeed cost money to mail large packages.


----------



## A Bit Much

> when you think in terms of NEVER (my kids will never have divorced parents, I'll never spank, I'll never fill in the blank) you set yourself up for disaster. There's a certain level of cooporation that's just needed by both partners and it can't be made up for by one trying extra hard. I think you need to be willing to lose your wife and very content that it may happen. If she and you are both willing to meet half way and if divorce on the table as an option then you have something to work with. As it stands, you've lasted longer than most would have expected


:iagree: 100%


----------



## janefw

Thundarr said:


> Disrespectful to who? The lady who wasn't there who probably doesn't even know. Should they have her sign COD since it does indeed cost money to mail large packages.


Where did I use the word "disrespectful"? Regardless, they know the situation, they know that they aren't welcome, so they had plenty of time to find other options than "large packages" - and the OP never said they were large packages, btw, so that has just been invented out of thin air.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is as valid as yours.


----------



## mkgal1

Thundarr said:


> Disrespectful to who? The lady who wasn't there who probably doesn't even know. Should they have her sign COD since it does indeed cost money to mail large packages.


"The lady who wasn't there" gets the fall out, though. Like this: 



uncool said:


> see this is the crap I hate! (see my reply to post #141 above)
> I'm so sick of these huge giant @*^&# ing eggshells! its ridiculous, my kids think it's ridiculous and it has to stop!!


I think mainly it's disrespectful to their son (uncool). I was the one that used the word "disrespect". That (dumping the packages) makes the whole incident "abnormal" and sort of dramatizes things (IMO.....then, causing uncool to blame his wife for this odd situations). Situations that he says he's fed up with. 

Like it was suggested.....had they let him know ahead of time that they would be flying out near him......they could have made arrangements in advance to meet up with him for coffee/tea....whatever....and had a little visit (as well as exchange the gifts). That way.....it wasn't a rush.....it wasn't an imposition on his wife.....and it could have been pleasant for everyone (even uncool's wife).


----------



## mkgal1

EleGirl said:


> What is not mature about droping off presents and not coming into the house? Seems to me that he parents did respect his wife's wishes by not coming into the house.


He didn't describe it as "dropping off presents"....uncool used, "dumped them in the driveway". PA behavior is often ambiguous.......it's often anger disguised as kind.


----------



## Thundarr

janefw said:


> Where did I use the word "disrespectful"? Regardless, they know the situation, they know that they aren't welcome, so they had plenty of time to find other options than "large packages" - and the OP never said they were large packages, btw, so that has just been invented out of thin air.
> 
> You have your opinion, I have mine. Mine is as valid as yours.


I'm handy with synoymns in contexual sentences like that but "I don't find it immature" equally states what I meant by "I don't find it disrepsectful". so why is it immature?

Again context with OP stating they dumped the presents to mean they were something that can be dumped. You know not cards or such. So there's where the assumptions about presents. Maybe they aren't LARGE. It doesn't change the question though, if they don't drop them off should she pay for her family's presents COD? 

If I were in town and had presents for the grandkids and my son yet my DIL didn't want me there, I would likely drop of presents outside. Not guilting my son to let me in the home would be the clear sign of respect for personal boundaries and property. 



uncool said:


> true, yes I didn't know they were coming. The were coming our way while they were going to catch a plane and thought it would be convenient to drop off the presents at the same time. They called me en route so that I could warn my wife. They then proceeded to dump the presents in the driveway so as not to intrude on or offend my wife (who wasn't there anyways)...


What doesn't make sense to me is that OP has said his wife has avoided his whole family for his brother's terrible act for 14 years, which the mother called the police, and he has alienated himself from them for years, and his mother wishes they could get past it, and his children think it's ridiculous, and that he thinks it's ridiculous, and his wifes parents dont' understand it, and that there's not sex in the marriage, and that she doesn't respect him or love him....yet a couple of posters have made her to be the victom. If you think OP is just lying then fine but how do all of these thing not point away from her being the victom.

And anyone thinking it's a little over the top and makes no sense gets accusations of fabrications and misreading quotes. That's fine, I know these responses tend to pop up when logic doesn't support a position.


----------



## janefw

Thundarr said:


> I'm handy with synoymns in contexual sentences like that but I don't find is immature equally states that I don't find is disrepsectful. Ok then, why is it immature? Same question, if they don't drop them off should she pay for her family's presents COD?


Because they knew they were leaving, they know they're not welcome at the house, so it smells of immaturity to drive over, call on the way - giving no prior warning other than that - and then just "dump" (his word not mine) gifts on the driveway. There were alternative ways of getting those gifts to the family. 



> Again context with OP stating they dumped the presents to mean they were something that can be dumped. You know not cards or such. So there's where the assumptions about presents. Maybe they aren't LARGE.


They could have been small gifts. Who knows?



> If I were in town and had presents for the grandkids yet my DIL didn't want me there, I would likely drop of presents outside. Not guilting my son to let me in the home would be the clear sign of respect for personal boundaries and property.


Well I wouldn't. Who knows that they might get stolen? In such a scenario, I would have called my son a week or two beforehand and said I had gifts for the family and how could I get them to him. You know - acting the mature way.



> What doesn't make sense to me is that OP has said his wife has avoided his whole family for his brother's terrible act for 14 years, which the mother called the police, and he has alienated himself from them for years, and his mother wishes they could get past it, and his children think it's ridiculous, and that he thinks it's ridiculous, and his wifes parents dont' understand it, and that there's not sex in the marriage, and that she doesn't respect him or love him....yet a couple of poster have made her to be the victom. If you think OP is just lying then fine but how do all of these thing not build a different picture than her plight.


Bear in mind that the children don't know what happened 14 years ago. If the child in question knew - maybe she would have a different take on it. It's great that everyone wants to get over it. Good for them. Not everyone can dismiss abuse that easily.



> And anyone thinking it's a little over the top and makes no sense gets accusations of fabrications and misreading quotes. That's fine, I know these responses tend to pop up when logic doesn't support a position.


LOL. So you make things up, then turn it around to say that someone pulling you on making things up is because they have no logic? Okay. You just enjoy that position of superiority that you created for yourself.

It's a matter of opinion. I don't think the OP is telling the whole story. But I don't have to justify my opinion to anyone. :shrug:


----------



## KathyBatesel

Uncool, 

I sense that there's a LOT more at work in your sexless marriage than simply a case of mom and wife problems. 

Others seem to be targeting some of this, but it's coming off as hostile toward you. I know that's not their intent, but if I back off and try to see the big picture, I keep seeing a bunch of missing pieces to the puzzle. Here's what it APPEARS to be in my viewpoint: 

It sounds like you're like most people - unwilling to hear criticism about your loved ones. Even though you agreed that your mom "deserved" your wife's tongue-lashing, here's a piece of the puzzle that it seems to me you are missing: Your mother's home is not a safe place and you're taking your children there. 

As a mom, I would HATE it if I was in your wife's shoes! Even though your brother's now grown and gone, I'd believe that *something* taught him to have that deviant behavior, and it *could* be because of mom and dad. At the very least, it happened under their watch, so to speak. 

I'm not saying that that's a good attitude for your wife to have, but it's not an uncommon one. So then she has it out with your mom and you felt like you were supporting her by not intervening, but as others pointed out, she was all alone there and might not have felt supported. 

Now you take your children there. This may seem like even more evidence that you're not as supportive as she would like to see. 

When we add in the way you use words and seem to respond to other people, it also looks like you are very focused on your own perceptions and not willing to truly acknowledge what others see. It's almost like a "yeah, but" response to everything - completely meaningless and showing that you didn't actually *think* about it and just gave a knee-jerk response instead. 

No matter how many times you post, you cannot make progress on this or your other issues unless you get rid of that self-centeredness.


----------



## mkgal1

Another thing that I'm picking up on, and wanted to mention is that you (uncool) seem to relate natural consequences.....and choices that are made by others as "punishment". Earlier in this thread you made a comment like, "has he paid enough for what he's done wrong" or something to that effect. Each of us have our own unique limits......our own amount of how much we can take from a person.....and our own points in time where we will say...."that's it---that's the straw that's broken the camel's back, and I am not going to take it any longer". When a person makes that choice (not taking it any longer)......that's not "punishment".....that is them exerting their own ownership of their life (in order to protect themselves). That's healthy boundaries. Are you familiar with boundaries?

This (IMO) is a well summed up explanation of what I'm trying to get across:



> As I was reflecting on what to say in a short article about the essence of boundaries, I returned to that need that we felt 5 years ago. Simply stated, it is this: people have a need to be in control of their own lives, and they have a need to know that God is behind that idea.
> 
> This need is fundamental in the creation of mankind, according to the Bible. God created us to be free, and to act responsibly with our freedom. He wanted us to be in control of ourselves, and to have a good existence. He was behind that idea all along. But as we all know, we misused our freedom and as a result, lost it. And the big fruit of this loss of freedom was the loss of self-control. We have felt the results of that ever since in a wide variety of misery. Consider a few of the alternatives to self-control:
> 
> Controlling relationships where people try to control each other
> Faith that is practiced out of guilt and drudgery instead of freedom and love
> The replacement of love as a motivator with guilt, anger and fear instead
> The inability to stop evil in significant relationships and cultures
> The inability to gain control of out own behavior and solve problems in our lives
> The loss of control to addictive processes
> The generational cycle of sin unable to be broken
> 
> Freedom and Responsibility
> 
> Freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. As it was in the garden of Eden, God’s created order was that we were to be free moral agents, and to operate within the boundaries that He established for us. We wanted to use our freedom in any way that we chose, and as a result, we lost it. Now, God has returned us to freedom, and like in the beginning, we are to use it responsibly, or we become slaves all over again.
> So, with the freedom that Christ has given you, you have to be responsible for your life and existence. This means that in all areas of your life, you are accountable. Here are some of the areas that we think the Bible talks about:
> 
> Feelings
> Attitudes
> Behaviors
> Choices
> Limits
> Talents
> Thoughts
> Desires
> Loves
> Values
> All of these things lie within the property of your own soul, within your boundaries. And God has given you stewardship over that domain. But, He will also hold you responsible in the end. As Paul and Jesus both tell us, “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.” (Romans 14:12) On that day, there will be no blaming it on someone else, no excuses given such as “he made me feel that way,” or “she drove me to it.” It will be just us and Him, and we will be responsible. So, while freedom is a good thing, it has another side to it that is weighty indeed.~The Simple Scoop on Boundaries | Cloud Townsend Resources


----------



## turnera

mkgal1 said:


> This sounds passive aggressive.....and that actually provokes (naturally) anger in you (and......you in turn direct that anger towards you wife). That's not fair to her. You ought to be angry with them (for not handling that in a mature way that respects everyone----including YOU).


 Actually, that sounds like parents who know all too well they've lost their son AND their grandkids because their son's self-centered wife can't get her head out of her azz and act like a grownup, so they do the best they can to NOT aggravate their son's wife.


----------



## daisygirl 41

I believe they lost their grand kids because their son sexually molested one of them as a baby!
That is not the wife's fault. I can only imagine how much pain that must have caused her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

I understand that, and from I read, they did everything they could to make up for it. I'd be upset, too, if I was OP's wife - at the brother. I think she's taken it to the extreme, probably because it suits her to not have to deal with his family.


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> I understand that, and from I read, they did everything they could to make up for it. I'd be upset, too, if I was OP's wife - at the brother. I think she's taken it to the extreme, probably because it suits her to not have to deal with his family.


I agree and I feel really bad for OPs family (minus the brother). If I had to find a villian it would be the evil twins (uncool and his wife). They have sabotaged themselves and continues to. Children absorb these negative dynamics and have to overcome them throughout life. uncool could have been a stronger husband and his wife didn't have to hang onto this for so long.


----------



## EleGirl

Uncool, you said that you and your brother are adopted. How old were the two of you when you were adopted?


----------



## FalconKing

Wow did this thread give me a headache. I knew from the first few pages that some posters were fishing for negative things to say about the OP. And rather then hearing you fairly that would rather debate you because they would rather be right than helpful. To be honest, based on your timeline and the events of what's happened with you and your wife I think your wife may be romantically involved with someone else. Especially the weight loss and drop off in your sex life. She's using that traumatic experience I feel to gaslight you.


----------



## FalconKing

Whenever you start a thread with a title like, "Wife Mad......etc"

Some people are going to automatically assume her anger was justified and victimize her. They are going to look at their situation and think any woman in a bad marriage has a right to do horrible things to her husband because they are identifying with being misunderstood and mistreated by their own husbands. These last few pages were uncalled for. It was a battle of insults and misunderstandings that could have been avoided. So sad... Defending scriptures...what he meant with "cleave", the actual wording of leaving or dumping in a driveway??? That stuff is so petty and not meant to be helpful at all to the OP.


----------



## EleGirl

FalconKing said:


> Wow did this thread give me a headache. I knew from the first few pages that some posters were fishing for negative things to say about the OP. And rather then hearing you fairly that would rather debate you because they would rather be right than helpful. To be honest, based on your timeline and the events of what's happened with you and your wife I think your wife may be romantically involved with someone else. Especially the weight loss and drop off in your sex life. She's using that traumatic experience I feel to gaslight you.


You know.. I've wondered if she is cheating as well for the same reasons. Maybe the OP could adress this.


----------



## daisygirl 41

turnera said:


> I understand that, and from I read, they did everything they could to make up for it. I'd be upset, too, if I was OP's wife - at the brother. I think she's taken it to the extreme, probably because it suits her to not have to deal with his family.


Yes she has possibly, after all it appears the mother did everything she could to make the situation right at the time. 
Perhaps, as some have you have pointed out, there is more going on with the wife here than we know.
A difficult situation for the OP being stuck in the middle.

My Hs father is a very difficult man, he has done many things over the years to disrespect me and undermine my H. He lives about 300 miles away. I decided about 5 years ago that I would not be visiting him again, he is invited for Xmas, as he lives alone, but he never accepts and H visits him once every 6 weeks for a long weekend. We are fine with that arrangement. I don't feel like my H is disrespecting me by visiting his father. I know the circumstances are different, but I would never make him choose between us, he is his father after all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Wow did this thread give me a headache. I knew from the first few pages that some posters were fishing for negative things to say about the OP. And rather then hearing you fairly that would rather debate you because they would rather be right than helpful. To be honest, based on your timeline and the events of what's happened with you and your wife I think your wife may be romantically involved with someone else. Especially the weight loss and drop off in your sex life. She's using that traumatic experience I feel to gaslight you.


Nice post. I read back through the thread and uncool's timeline in post #84 screams of the gaslighting theory and is more telling than comments before and after it.


----------



## mkgal1

Thundarr said:


> Nice post. I read back through the thread and uncool's timeline in post #84 screams of the gaslighting theory and is more telling than comments before and after it.


Or.......an alternative explanation (one that makes sense in my mind) is that her not wanting to do anything with her MIL may have less to do with the actual incident 14 years ago, and more to do with uncool's response to it (and following run ins). That becomes a viscous circle that has no ending until there is an understanding.


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> I don't believe it's an Either/Or scenario. I believe I could do both. If I found happiness elsewhere I could also be a good dad and "lay my life" down for them.
> Keep in mind I started this thread to seek advice on how to deal with the discomfort I live with on a constant basis of my wife's harsh and rude disownment of my mother. The general consensus I got from posters was to work on my marriage first and that there'd be a chance my wife could cease her nastiness towards my mother later on. So this is what I'll focus on for now.
> 
> you vote divorce. Got it


Again, putting words in my mouth.

I am supportive of working on your marriage. That is what I did. But I don't think you should continue the marriage with a huge chip on your shoulder. In your posts, I hear resentment toward your wife and I also see how you have twice changed what I wrote to make it sound totally different. If you do it to me, I presume you do it to her and it is a communication/intercourse killer. 

I think you might consider going to IC to work on *yourself*. If you can change resentment and poor listening skills into kindness and consideration, you might have more success in the bedroom.

I also suggest Retrouvaille which helped my husband and I develop much better communication skills. Marriage Help Program For Couples


----------



## EleGirl

mkgal1 said:


> Or.......an alternative explanation (one that makes sense in my mind) is that her not wanting to do anything with her MIL may have less to do with the actual incident 14 years ago, and more to do with uncool's response to it (and following run ins). That becomes a viscous circle that has no ending until there is an understanding.


If it's the case that she's actually upset about his response to it then it's her responsibility to tell him and to work it out with him. This is something that she refuses to do. 

He has done things for years to support her like completely cutting off all contact with hs family. etc. He agrees with her that his mother should not have asked about healing a year after the incident. So it's not like he has not tried to be supportive of his wife.

We also need to keep in mind that his wife also has worked to cut all of his friends out of his life. It's not just his family that they she does with with.

So she has tried to isolate him not from his mother who she is upset with but his entire extended family.


----------



## turnera

Like I said - she doesn't want to be bothered with his peeps, so she keeps this active as a reason to not have to.

And he's too beta male to do anything about it.

OP, have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.?


----------



## Blonde

Ephesians 5- husbands (unilaterally) told repeatedly to agape love using imperative (command) grammar. God would not command something which He is not ready willing and able to empower you to do.

What does love look like?

1 Cor 13 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails.​


----------



## FalconKing

Blonde said:


> Again, putting words in my mouth.
> 
> I am supportive of working on your marriage. That is what I did. But I don't think you should continue the marriage with a huge chip on your shoulder. In your posts, I hear resentment toward your wife and I also see how you have twice changed what I wrote to make it sound totally different. If you do it to me, I presume you do it to her and it is a communication/intercourse killer.
> 
> I think you might consider going to IC to work on *yourself*. If you can change resentment and poor listening skills into kindness and consideration, you might have more success in the bedroom.
> 
> I also suggest Retrouvaille which helped my husband and I develop much better communication skills. Marriage Help Program For Couples


Maybe he does it to you because he doesn't find your posts helpful. Maybe he feels like you are attacking him and that he is mostly to blame for this bad marriage. He does have resentment. Things have been bad for years. I think preaching to him to have a more selfless attitude isn't going to work because his wife already has too much control and is indifferent to his existence. When he finally left she then was open to talking, however that wouldn't last. He can't love his wife out of this. She has heavy lifting of her own to do. 

And I don't think he is trying to pick a fight with you. I think he is just wondering what is your problem with him and probably got tired of trying to be polite.

That link is quite helpful though.


----------



## Blonde

EleGirl said:


> If it's the case that she's actually upset about his response to it then it's her responsibility to tell him and to work it out with him. This is something that she refuses to do.


Well, I'm ready to stop trying to communicate with him already after a handful of times because he twists around what I say to mean about the opposite. Sucks to be her!

Just sayin...


----------



## FalconKing

Blonde said:


> Well, I'm ready to stop trying to communicate with him already after a handful of times because he twists around what I say to mean about the opposite. Sucks to be her!
> 
> Just sayin...


Then why did you even post this


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> Or.......an alternative explanation (one that makes sense in my mind) is that her not wanting to do anything with her MIL may have less to do with the actual incident 14 years ago, and more to do with uncool's response to it (and following run ins). That becomes a viscous circle that has no ending until there is an understanding.


Uncool reiterated that he took his wife side and has even tried to be understanding to her. He even said that his wife hadn't seen his parents in 9 years. That's because of her wish. Obviously his wife has had most of the power in this marriage and I think she is using that horrible incident to manipulate her husband. His wife has to take some ownership for their problems. But I think there is(or was) someone else at a time. 



uncool said:


> I know it's long but here's my time line.
> 
> 1994 -my wife was great horny girlfriend and dated a year before we got married
> *-wife quit being horny after wedding never to be horny again but still acted like she loved me for a while
> -had kids*
> 1997-mother offended my wife after incident.
> *1999-wife appeared to get over it a year or so later and attended events with my mother and family for a few years.
> 2003-had kid#4 wife distanced her self from me emotionaly and physically.
> -said it was because she was afraid she would get pregnant again*
> -2004 bought her a 10yr copper IUD birth control... still nothing
> *-2006 turns me down for simple weekend dates. told me it was because I was around her to often with my home office
> -2007 moved out to an expensive office and was rarely home hoping she'd miss me more. Didn't miss me at all. *
> -2008 said she hated sex cause she felt fat at 140lbs & wasn't comfortable with her body
> *-2009 wife started working out twice a day and eating healthy.
> -2010 wife is now smoking hot at 106lbs and wears size 1-2
> -wife finally says she feels preasured for intimacy and that sex is all I want.* I get the message loud and clear and back off completely. I don't touch her for 6-8months
> *-wife see's a private councelor about her issues. Wife won't even talk to me at all for any reason.* I'm broken hearted.
> *-wife ignores our anniversary and stands me up for the third year in a row.* I go out to dinner at her favoriet restaurant alone and give her dozen red roses to the homeless lady on the streat.
> -with nothing else to consider but divorce. I* am desperate so I sneak a peak at her journal she always writes in for some clue to whats going on with my marriage. She writes that as soon as the last kid is out of the house then she's leaving me. that she can't stand being married and wants to be a single mom. Also writes how happy she'd be if my brother and mother die*d.
> -2011 I get an apartment and move out. *Wife doesn't know I've even left for over a week after I'd gone. Didn't even notice all my stuff was gone.* I mail her a letter about why I left
> -I'm at the deepest low in my whole life.
> *-single ladies at my new apartment complex take immediate notice in me* and start flirting and inviting me over for dinner. It was great! I found out that I wasn't really an unattractive man after all! I still had it! Women were still attracted to me !
> *-wife cries and begs me to come back*
> -I move back home
> -wife starts acting horny. I don't buy it. I'm disgusted in her
> -sex stops after 2 months.
> *-2012 no interest in sex any more again
> -I invite her out on a simple date to go get an icecream. declined. Says she's glad I'm back but not in love with me again yet.*
> -I get join a program for broken husbands that shows them how to get their wives to like them again. Not working
> -wife is still nice and pleasant to me in conversation... just no affection.
> -wife is diagnosed with a medical thyroid issue called hashimoto's disease. One of the side effects listed on the disease is "decreased libido". She then says this is why she hates affection. I don't buy it. I think it's an excuse because her sister has hashimotos also but is always affectionate with her husband even in public. She's always kissing and hugging him and take trips w/each other.
> -comes to bed with her clothes on even though I have no plans to touch her. Says it's cause she's cold even though I offer to snuggle w/her and warm her up
> *-tells me the only reason she wanted me to move back in was so the kids wouldn't freak out.*
> *-old girlfriend from highschool contacts me on facebook and tells me she's divorced. Starts sending me private messages hinting how she'd love to find another man.* Starts flirting with me in eamil. I enjoy this but I shouldn't right?
> -2013 I start posting on this forum again weighing my options


ok. With this and this:



uncool said:


> My wife is the controlling type that can't control her mouth most of the time....


I think first off that your wife probably had unrealistic expectations in marriage, if there was a sudden decline in her interest in sex after marriage baring no major changes in your lives. I think probably she expects you to make her happy and probably thinks little of your own happiness. Sadly many people go into marriage with this mindset. Since she wasn't happy she probably was doubting your ability as a husband. And when that horrible incident happened with your child and your brother it brought her fears into reality. Which is that you come from an unfit family and you yourself are incompetent as a provider/husband. Her unwillingness to discuss these things with you is because she doesn't see you as a husband and lover. Also, she does recognize the magnitude of how horrible the incident is. And she knows how badly you want to reconcile things between her and your family. That time after the incident when she was still meeting with your family I think she just pondering if she can or can not live with not seeing these people again. Now she has no desire to be cordial because she is trying to get out of this. So she is gaslighting you because she is manipulating things to at least make it manageable for her to stomach you until the kids are grown. I also speculate at some point your wife may have had an affair. The weight loss and the indifference to your presence and the refusal to share intimate things about what she is thinking tell me that. But...I don't know if she was having one now. I think you finding her diary was a passive aggressive attack because she knew at some point you would see it. She may have wanted you to pull the trigger on the marriage and you to have all the blame and responsibility. I think her jealousy got the best of her and her need to control you, and that is why she took you back. 

As for you. I think there were so many issues with the communication. Maybe not enough tough questions being asked in the beginning. Now you have let resentment build for so long that you yourself have checked out. You are starving for female attention and you are primed to have an affair. This is what you CAN control. This is you and your integrity. You know that other women have found you attractive and have expressed interest in you. But also it could all be in your head. Either way. IMHO this will only get better with rug sweeping and then it won't even be real. I don't see your wife being the kind of woman to let you into her heart completely. Well she could be that kind of woman, but I don't think she will be with you. Think of how bad this could look for you. Your wife will be telling everyone your child was sexually molested by your brother and that you cheated on her. The courts would destroy you. So if you get the wondering eye, I think you were right to try to end it the first time. I just don't think she wants you and at this point your resentment is sky high.


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> Like I said - she doesn't want to be bothered with his peeps, so she keeps this active as a reason to not have to.
> 
> And he's too beta male to do anything about it.
> 
> OP, have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.?


Beta, passive aggressive, nice guy? Who knows? We (Mk, Blonde, jane, you, me, Falcon, Ele, etc) have all bounced around trying to figure out OP. It's obvious he's playing some role along with his wife. Just hard to figure out the dynamic. It's pretty easy to see some things his wife is doing that a partner is not supposed to accept though.


----------



## turnera

The thing is, she has no reason to care about him, since he has just trudged along with whatever she wanted. The ONLY time she ever cares is when he makes himself scarce. So do what works. File for divorce.


----------



## EleGirl

FalconKing said:


> Think of how bad this could look for you. Your wife will be telling everyone your child was sexually molested by your brother and that you cheated on her. The courts would destroy you. So if you get the wondering eye, I think you were right to try to end it the first time. I just don't think she wants you and at this point your resentment is sky high.


I'm not sure what state uncool lives in. 

Most states are no fault. So any infidelity will not even come up. In no fault states she would not even be allowed to mention the infidelity. The courts do not care to sort out the nonsense people do to each other. 

In the fault states, she would have to prove beyond a doubt that he has committed adultry. In court EA's do not count. Only full out PA's count. If he's not had any affairs, she does not have this evidence.

On the issue of his 13 year old brother touching their daughter inappropriately. It was 15 years ago. He and his children have little to no contact with his now 30 year old brother. His brother has no police record as an adult. His parents look like very good people because the mother called the police and reported the molestation. What happened 15 years ago will have no impact at all on the custody arrangements. This is especially true since his children are no longer toddlers. What his brother did as a 13 year old child will not even be allowed as evidence.


----------



## mkgal1

EleGirl said:


> We also need to keep in mind that his wife also has worked to cut all of his friends out of his life. It's not just his family that they she does with with.
> 
> So she has tried to isolate him not from his mother who she is upset with but his entire extended family.


That's not what the OP said (or how he's describing things). This is from the OP, post #1:



uncool said:


> My wife still encourages me to take our 4 kids to be with their grandparents though.


----------



## FalconKing

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure what state uncool lives in.
> 
> Most states are no fault. So any infidelity will not even come up. In no fault states she would not even be allowed to mention the infidelity. The courts do not care to sort out the nonsense people do to each other.
> 
> In the fault states, she would have to prove beyond a doubt that he has committed adultry. In court EA's do not count. Only full out PA's count. If he's not had any affairs, she does not have this evidence.
> 
> On the issue of his 13 year old brother touching their daughter inappropriately. It was 15 years ago. He and his children have little to no contact with his now 30 year old brother. His brother has no police record as an adult. His parents look like very good people because the mother called the police and reported the molestation. What happened 15 years ago will have no impact at all on the custody arrangements. This is especially true since his children are no longer toddlers. What his brother did as a 13 year old child will not even be allowed as evidence.


What you say is right. And you could avoid the he said she said game. I guess I would just be worried if they went to court and she just wanted to gut him and keep the kids from him and started making all of these accusations. She could get hysterical about the incident and then mention how he was talking to other women while they were married. It's happened. I know a guy who wife cheated on him multiple times and would be gone for days. She even developed a drug habit. She made up these accusations about him abusing her. The judge gave her everything and he had to live in a truck until he found a place. He said he had police documentation of her drug abuse and the judge told him that even if he could prove she was on heroin he'd still give her the kids. Obviously that situation isn't normal. But still you never know how sympathetic a judge could be.


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> Uncool reiterated that he took his wife side and has even tried to be understanding to her.


He said that, yes......and I don't doubt that he believes that. It's just that he doesn't seem to be giving her the room to make her own choices as to whom she visits (and why). He *seems* to find it impossible to be kind to her unless she reconciles with his mother. His love shouldn't be dependent upon that (he's even said that it's only 3 times a year that he even speaks to his mother). 

Also....the incident with the packages.....that's not (IMO) his wife's fault. She did all she could to reduce any ill effects on uncool (she was the one that voluntarily left her house)......it was his parents that called en-route.....and dumped the packages in the driveway. Uncool's wife shouldn't take the fall for that.

I think the struggle is something that *can* be handled within himself. Once he accepts that it's up to his wife to go or not go to his family holidays he will feel much less frustration. Once he sees that allowing his mother to call at the last minute (causing his wife to leave their home) is disrespectful.......he may be on the path of seeing things through the eyes of his wife (and that's where their reconciliation can begin----if it's not too late).


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> -wife cries and begs me to come back
> -I move back home
> -wife starts acting horny. I don't buy it. I'm disgusted in her


She begged you to come back. She attempts to initiate sex and you are "disgusted in her"? :scratchhead: Way to discourage her from acting that way! If I was your wife, I would be very confused...





> -wife see's a private councelor about her issues. Wife won't even talk to me at all for any reason. I'm broken hearted.


She does not feel safe communicating with you.




> -single ladies at my new apartment complex take immediate notice in me and start flirting and inviting me over for dinner. It was great! I found out that I wasn't really an unattractive man after all! I still had it! Women were still attracted to me !
> -old girlfriend from highschool contacts me on facebook and tells me she's divorced. Starts sending me private messages hinting how she'd love to find another man. Starts flirting with me in eamil. I enjoy this but I shouldn't right?
> -2013 I start posting on this forum again weighing my options


"Weighing your options"? You have all those hot babes in the apartment complex "genuinely' interested in you and your FB friend hitting on you by PM. If you were a female poster pple would be raking you over the coals about your EA!

But you are male and there are Green green pastures out there. Just dump her- you'll get loads of support for that here on TAM. 

First, get some IC. Your wife may have issues, but you do too and your issues will go with you into the next relationship. 



> -wife finally says she feels preasured for intimacy and that sex is all I want. I get the message loud and clear and *back off completely. I don't touch her for 6-8months*


I'm just putting myself in your wife's shoes here. That feels like rejection to me. And thinking she was "disgusting" when she tried to initiate upon your moving back. And if she knew that you are PM'ing with a HS sweetheart and dreaming about replacing her with hot women at the apartment complex. Rejection. She's a "reject".

You feel rejected by her. But you communicate heaps of rejection to her. Sow and reap.

You might try a Phil 4:8 list of things you appreciate about her and try to focus on her good aspects (if you really want to make the marriage work).


----------



## Thundarr

Uncool's wife checked out of the marriage and doesn't like his family so she see's no reason to see them ever. This thread was started with a symptom of the problem and not the problem it's self. Projecting my need for family closeness and for my wife to hopefully love them but at the least to tolerate them has made it difficult to understand how this marriage survived.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> He said that, yes......and I don't doubt that he believes that. It's just that he doesn't seem to be giving her the room to make her own choices as to whom she visits (and why). He *seems* to find it impossible to be kind to her unless she reconciles with his mother. His love shouldn't be dependent upon that (he's even said that it's only 3 times a year that he even speaks to his mother).


Or maybe he's just tired of putting up with her extreme dislike of his family. Didn't she write in a journal that she wishes his mother would die? I would have a hard time free loving a woman who said that about my mother. This is resentment. 



> Also....the incident with the packages.....that's not (IMO) his wife's fault. She did all she could to reduce any ill effects on uncool (she was the one that voluntarily left her house)......it was his parents that called en-route.....and dumped the packages in the driveway. Uncool's wife shouldn't take the fall for that.


I agree that it's not his wife's fault. But I just thought the banter of the parents tossing the packages OR dropping them off was just gaslighting him.



> I think the struggle is something that *can* be handled within himself. Once he accepts that it's up to his wife to go or not go to his family holidays he will feel much less frustration. Once he sees that allowing his mother to call at the last minute (causing his wife to leave their home) is disrespectful.......he may be on the path of seeing things through the eyes of his wife (and that's where their reconciliation can begin----if it's not too late).


I disagree with this. I think too much of the blame is put on him. You don't know what his wife is thinking but you are defending her. She obviously did some bad things her self. Maybe you could just see some things from the OPs side too.


----------



## FalconKing

Blonde do you think all the problems in a marriage start and end with the man? 

Personally, do you trust men?


----------



## mkgal1

uncool said:


> wife finally says she feels pressured for intimacy and that *sex is all I want*. I get the message loud and clear and back off completely. I don't touch her for 6-8months


Sorry to say that you *didn't* get the message loud and clear. When a woman says, "all you want is sex".....she *isn't* saying...."don't ever touch me again".....she's saying she needs some emotional intimacy. She needs to be listened to........thought of as a complete person with her own valuable opinions and thoughts. 

To me....that sounds as if you were trying to punish her ("Ill show HER.....I'm not going to touch her ever again"---and that lasted eight months). Playing with sexual intimacy like that is an intimacy (not just sex) killer. It back fires on you (as you've experienced).


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> Sorry to say that you *didn't* get the message loud and clear. When a woman says, "all you want is sex".....she *isn't* saying...."don't ever touch me again".....she's saying she needs some emotional intimacy.
> 
> To me....that sounds as if you were trying to punish her ("Ill show HER.....I'm not going to touch her ever again"---and that lasted eight months). Playing with sexual intimacy like that is an intimacy (not just sex) killer. It back fires on you (as you've experienced).


Let's ignore that he never felt punished by her. Matter of fact let's ignore anything she ever did to him wrong in the marriage, some of you are doing that anyway.


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> Let's ignore that he never felt punished by her. Matter of fact let's ignore anything she ever did to him wrong in the marriage, some of you are doing that anyway.


You can if you want to. However, I'm not ignoring anything that's been shared with us.


----------



## mkgal1

.


----------



## turnera

mkgal1 said:


> Once he sees that allowing his mother to call at the last minute (causing his wife to leave their home) is disrespectful


I see your point, BUT them coming by DID NOT CAUSE her to leave the home. She CHOSE to leave the home.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> You can if you want to. However, I'm not ignoring anything that's been shared with us.


Well maybe not. But you don't seem to like acknowledging that his wife did unhealthy things. And when you do acknowledge it, it seems to be a reaction to what he's done. So that makes everything she does bad to him, his fault.

He was the bigger person at one time. Now he doesn't know what he wants and he's angry. 

If a woman posted her and her husband was doing to her what his wife had done to him, I seriously doubt some of you would say the same things. At the least, you'd have more understanding and probably tell the woman her husband was being abusive.


----------



## EleGirl

EleGirl said:


> We also need to keep in mind that his wife also has worked to cut all of his friends out of his life. It's not just his family that they she does with with.
> 
> So she has tried to isolate him not from his mother who she is upset with but his entire extended family.





mkgal1 said:


> That's not what the OP said (or how he's describing things). This is from the OP, post #1:





uncool said:


> My wife still encourages me to take our 4 kids to be with their grandparents though.


Uncool clarifies this in later posts. In earlier years she did not encourage him to take the 4 kids to be with their grandparents. This is a new thing she has done since he put his foot down recently.

In the past uncool, his wife and kids spent holidays one year at her mothers and then the next year in their own home. He did not got to his parents’ home on holidays for years because his wife did not want him to.

His wife also mislead her own parents, letting them think that on alternate years the uncool family was spending it with his family instead of at their own home.


----------



## EleGirl

FalconKing said:


> What you say is right. And you could avoid the he said she said game. I guess I would just be worried if they went to court and she just wanted to gut him and keep the kids from him and started making all of these accusations. She could get hysterical about the incident and then mention how he was talking to other women while they were married. It's happened. I know a guy who wife cheated on him multiple times and would be gone for days. She even developed a drug habit. She made up these accusations about him abusing her. The judge gave her everything and he had to live in a truck until he found a place. He said he had police documentation of her drug abuse and the judge told him that even if he could prove she was on heroin he'd still give her the kids. Obviously that situation isn't normal. But still you never know how sympathetic a judge could be.


This is true. Sometimes judges do things that make no sense. Was this in a fault state?

It has a lot to do with the lawyer one has as well.

I was in a divoce hearing not too long long ago in California, a no fault state, (not my divorce)and the wife tried to get the husband for fabricated stuff. You could see the wife building up to her little plan. She was just sitting there sobbing like a victim. It was so hard not a laugh at her since I knew the story on both sides. 

Then at one point when things were not going her way she stood up and just started listing all the things she wanted to get him for and to use to get more out of him. When she got done. The judge said "I hope you feel better now that you got that out of your system." Then he turned to the whole court room and said "Now lets get back to the topic at hand."

She was so obviously livid that her little plan did not work. I could almost see steam coming out of her ears. The judge just ignored her nonsense. She got only what the law allowed. Nothing more.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Well maybe not. But you don't seem to like acknowledging that his wife did unhealthy things. And when you do acknowledge it, it seems to be a reaction to what he's done. So that makes everything she does bad to him, his fault.
> 
> He was the bigger person at one time. Now he doesn't know what he wants and he's angry.
> 
> *If a woman posted her and her husband was doing to her what his wife had done to him, I seriously doubt some of you would say the same things. At the least, you'd have more understanding and probably tell the woman her husband was being abusive.*


Reversed the wife would get more supportive comments. Family is important, he's controlling, abusive, passive aggresive, having affairs.


----------



## EleGirl

mkgal1 said:


> He said that, yes......and I don't doubt that he believes that. It's just that he doesn't seem to be giving her the room to make her own choices as to whom she visits (and why). He *seems* to find it impossible to be kind to her unless she reconciles with his mother. His love shouldn't be dependent upon that (he's even said that it's only 3 times a year that he even speaks to his mother).


His attitude towards his wife is wrapped up in years of her rejecting him, saying she does not want to be with him, a sexless marriage, her yelling and using foul language when talking to him, her refusing to work on the marriage. Gee he now has trouble seeing her as the love of his life and is harsh. I was married to a man a lot like his wife. I can tell you that over time it wears you down until you no longer can take it. That I believe is what is going on with him.



mkgal1 said:


> Also....the incident with the packages.....that's not (IMO) his wife's fault. She did all she could to reduce any ill effects on uncool (she was the one that voluntarily left her house)......it was his parents that called en-route.....and dumped the packages in the driveway. Uncool's wife shouldn't take the fall for that.


When he said that they ‘dumped’ off the presents it means that he went out to the driveway and got the presents from their car. You are over working op’s choice to use the word ‘dump’ instead of ‘deliver’ or ‘drop off’. They dropped off the presents. There was no need for her to leave the house when the in laws had no intent to enter the house. What? The in-laws cannot even come into the neighborhood or dive on their street? Get real.



mkgal1 said:


> I think the struggle is something that *can* be handled within himself. Once he accepts that it's up to his wife to go or not go to his family holidays he will feel much less frustration. Once he sees that allowing his mother to call at the last minute (causing his wife to leave their home) is disrespectful.......he may be on the path of seeing things through the eyes of his wife (and that's where their reconciliation can begin----if it's not too late).


And you are right that he if he chooses to stay with her he does need to accept her refusal to have anything to do with anyone in his family. He also needs to stand his ground now that he and the children will have as much to do with his family as he chooses. For years he supported her and gave into her on this topic. But it’s time that he has the relationship he wants with his family.

His wife needs to realize that while she can control who she spends time with, she cannot control who he spends time with. And she sure cannot control who drives down her street and even drops presents off for her husband to carry into the house.

With your way of thinking, how many feet/yards must his parents stay away from the street in front of the house before the wife has a right to get bent out of shape?


----------



## Chris Taylor

Why are we still discussing this. uncool wrote:

"-with nothing else to consider but divorce. I am desperate so I sneak a peak at her journal she always writes in for some clue to whats going on with my marriage. She writes that as soon as the last kid is out of the house then she's leaving me. that she can't stand being married and wants to be a single mom. Also writes how happy she'd be if my brother and mother died."

It's obvious why she wanted him back... he's a paycheck until divorce (probably after, too). She's gone. Finished.

Why should she reconcile with uncool's mother? Mom will just hate her after the divorce anyway so why go through the facade of reconciliation with either uncool or his mother?

Uncool can read her the riot act, demand counseling (real counseling, not Bishop stuff), demand unity in the families but I think it's only a matter of time before she's gone, baby, gone.


----------



## EleGirl

Chris Taylor said:


> Why are we still discussing this. uncool wrote:
> 
> "-with nothing else to consider but divorce. I am desperate so I sneak a peak at her journal she always writes in for some clue to whats going on with my marriage. She writes that as soon as the last kid is out of the house then she's leaving me. that she can't stand being married and wants to be a single mom. Also writes how happy she'd be if my brother and mother died."
> 
> It's obvious why she wanted him back... he's a paycheck until divorce (probably after, too). She's gone. Finished.
> 
> Why should she reconcile with uncool's mother? Mom will just hate her after the divorce anyway so why go through the facade of reconciliation with either uncool or his mother?
> 
> Uncool can read her the riot act, demand counseling (real counseling, not Bishop stuff), demand unity in the families but I think it's only a matter of time before she's gone, baby, gone.


In a later post he says that he wants to try one last time to make it work. He's looking for a way to change his marriage in hopes that he does not have to bail.


----------



## EleGirl

uncool said:


> wife finally says she feels pressured for intimacy and that sex is all I want. I get the message loud and clear and back off completely. I don't touch her for 6-8months





mkgal1 said:


> Sorry to say that you *didn't* get the message loud and clear. When a woman says, "all you want is sex".....she *isn't* saying...."don't ever touch me again".....she's saying she needs some emotional intimacy. She needs to be listened to........thought of as a complete person with her own valuable opinions and thoughts.


There have been women who have posted here to say that all their husbands want is sex and them clearly state that they hate sex with him (or maybe in every way) and do not want to have to have sex.

You are guessing at what she meant when she said that. She might have meant that she does not want any sex with him. Remember that she says she does not love him and is only staying until the children are grown. She might very well not want sex with him. To complain to someone that all they want is sex is a huge rejection and extremely hurtful. Obviously he does not only want sex. He works to support the family, he’s home every night to be with the family. 

She is a grown up. She needs do say exactly what is on her mind, not to make hurtful hints in the hope that he guesses what she means. It’s not his job to guess what she means.


mkgal1 said:


> To me....that sounds as if you were trying to punish her ("Ill show HER.....I'm not going to touch her ever again"---and that lasted eight months). Playing with sexual intimacy like that is an intimacy (not just sex) killer. It back fires on you (as you've experienced).


It’s been 8 months and she has not initiated sex with him. Do you presume that it’s his job alone to initiate sex? He learned something very important. If he does not initiate she does not care enough to have sex with him to initiate.

I’ve been through this. When I realized that I was the only one initiating sex or a long time I stopped initiating assuming that my husband would realize it and start to initiate. It’s been about 6 years. He’s never initiated. We have not had sex since. The fact that he did not initiate is a clear sign that he does not want sex with me.

It’s the same with uncool’s wife. She’s a grown woman. If actually wanted sex with him she would have initiated long before the 8 month mark was met. I guess by your way of thinking she is punishing him because she has not initiated sex. She has apparently not even mentioned the lack of sex in the marriage now. So she obviously does not want sex.


----------



## uncool

I had to escape this thread for couple days. It was too overwhelming to try to defend each and every post while staying employed at the same time.

Had to pop a giant bowl of popcorn reading the posts. I'll do my best to answer a few questions

*I'm 100% positive my wife hasn't & isn't having an affair

*wife fully encourages me to associate the kids with my mother and relatives. I'm the one uncomfortable doing this sometimes because they all ask me where my wife is. I lie for her because I love her but it's getting old

*wife has not set any boundaries for my folks or relatives.

*when I went for 6-8months without touching my wife... it wasn't a punishment to her. It was a gift and she loved it and still loves not being touched. I want her to be happy and this appears to make her happy.


----------



## uncool

FalconKing said:


> Wow did this thread give me a headache. I knew from the first few pages that some posters were fishing for negative things to say about the OP. And rather then hearing you fairly that would rather debate you because they would rather be right than helpful.


agreed



turnera said:


> And he's too beta male to do anything about it.


hmm Interesting maybe so. Is there anything besides early divorce that an alpha would have done differently?



FalconKing said:


> Maybe he does it to you because he doesn't find your posts helpful. Maybe he feels like you are attacking him and that he is mostly to blame for this bad marriage...I don't think he is trying to pick a fight with you. I think he is just wondering what is your problem with him and probably got tired of trying to be polite.


 bingo



Thundarr said:


> It's pretty easy to see some things his wife is doing that a partner is not supposed to accept though.


 besides divorce, how would I "not" accept?



mkgal1 said:


> he doesn't seem to be giving her the room to make her own choices as to whom she visits (and why). *say what?* He *seems* to find it impossible to be kind to her unless she reconciles with his mother.*huh? I am kind to her almost all the time. In fact I've been so kind that I think it's a fault of mine and have been practicing "spine-ful" skills and responses for the past couple years now.*
> Also....the incident with the packages.....that's not (IMO) his wife's fault. She did all she could to reduce any ill effects on uncool (she was the one that voluntarily left her house)......it was his parents that called en-route.....and dumped the packages in the driveway. Uncool's wife shouldn't take the fall for that.* you act as if this was some huge "no-no" by my wife. fyi ... I was the one bothered by this. My wife could care less. It wasn't an inconvenience for her to go shopping. She had a good few hrs notice and didn't say it bothered her*
> 
> Once he accepts that it's up to his wife to go or not go to his family holidays he will feel much less frustration. Once he sees that allowing his mother to call at the last minute (causing his wife to leave their home) is disrespectful....*you're right, I don't see this as disrespectful and neither does my wife. Mkgal is the only one being offended here*...he may be on the path of seeing things through the eyes of his wife (and that's where their reconciliation can begin----if it's not too late
> *mkgal, I'm concerned about how you think and your over- analyzations. You seemed bothered by this more than my wife is. Could it be that you're putting yourself in the shoes that you think my wife is wearing? Could it be you're associating or fantasizing yourself as being married to me? maybe you imagine me as someone who has hurt you in the past?*


----------



## Thundarr

uncool said:


> hmm Interesting maybe so. Is there anything besides early divorce that an alpha would have done differently?


hmm. Standing up setting boundaries for your core principles like the value of family and for respect of the people around you are key to being someone that your wife can respect. You give her and yourself something to admire. It's not an alpha/beta thing at all as plenty of women are married guys of each type. Guys that hold themselves, their friends, their wives, their children accountable for being respectful. Beta guys and Alpha guys who flat out aren't willing to be treated disrespectfully and who return it. Generally these are guys who love their wife but would be willing to move on if their wife doesn't treat them right. I think they are the guys the wife comes running back to because she feels like he makes her a better person, holds her to a high standard, loves her with a high standard. Guys who want awesome and not just good enough.


----------



## Aunt Ava

This is not love, and I can't imagine how soul destroying this relationship is for you. Don't you feel like a hostage? This can't be a healthy environment for your children.

Your wife certainly can hold a grudge, but after 14 years she is just being unreasonable. Your mom apologized and made the effort. If your wife loved and honored you she would accept it and move forward. So she is getting something out of keeping it going. Huge red flag that her family wasn't aware of any of this and that she misled them about the holiday situation.


----------



## Thundarr

Aunt Ava said:


> This is not love, and I can't imagine how soul destroying this relationship is for you. Don't you feel like a hostage? *This can't be a healthy environment for your children.*
> 
> Your wife certainly can hold a grudge, but after 14 years she is just being unreasonable. Your mom apologized and made the effort. If your wife loved and honored you she would accept it and move forward. So she is getting something out of keeping it going. Huge red flag that her family wasn't aware of any of this and that she misled them about the holiday situation.


How this has to affect the kids is the most disturbing part of this thread to me.


----------



## FalconKing

uncool, what kind of person was your wife when you dated her? What would you say were her positives and negative? Who would you say was more of the pleaser?


----------



## mkgal1

MKgal said:


> he doesn't seem to be giving her the room to make her own choices as to whom she visits (and why).





uncool said:


> say what?


The entire premise of this thread, and what seems to be the main obstacle in your marital intimacy (and I don't mean "sex" when I use "intimacy".....I mean "oneness"......."acceptance"......."understanding"......."genuine Love".




MKgal said:


> He *seems* to find it impossible to be kind to her unless she reconciles with his mother.





uncool said:


> huh? I am kind to her almost all the time. In fact I've been so kind that I think it's a fault of mine and have been practicing "spine-ful" skills and responses for the past couple years now.


Condemning her for not associating with your mom......and calling it "holding a grudge"........blaming her for things that she has no control over.......are all not examples of "being kind". If you want your marriage to turn around, there's going to have to be change. Otherwise.......it's going to only continue to be more of the same (although maybe escalated and worse).




MKgal said:


> Also....the incident with the packages.....that's not (IMO) his wife's fault. She did all she could to reduce any ill effects on uncool (she was the one that voluntarily left her house)......it was his parents that called en-route.....and dumped the packages in the driveway. Uncool's wife shouldn't take the fall for that.





uncool said:


> you act as if this was some huge "no-no" by my wife. fyi ... I was the one bothered by this. My wife could care less. It wasn't an inconvenience for her to go shopping. She had a good few hrs notice and didn't say it bothered her


She's probably grown to accept that this is going to be the arrangement, and that leaving is her only way of dealing with it without being rude herself. It was you that seemed to think that whole incident was her (your wife's) fault. It seems that the only acceptable (in your eyes) response for her to have would be to stay put, and pretend that she was happy to see your folks. That's not fair to her. She should be allowed her own feelings (even if they are separate from yours). I realize that you were the one bothered by this incident, which is why I originally said that your parents were ultimately being disrespectful to *you* (and your wife is getting the fall out from it). What would have been *your* ideal outcome in all that? How would you have liked for everyone to have behaved? 



MKgal said:


> Once he accepts that it's up to his wife to go or not go to his family holidays he will feel much less frustration. Once he sees that allowing his mother to call at the last minute (causing his wife to leave their home) is disrespectful...he may be on the path of seeing things through the eyes of his wife (and that's where their reconciliation can begin----if it's not too late.





uncool said:


> you're right, I don't see this as disrespectful and neither does my wife. Mkgal is the only one being offended here...mkgal, I'm concerned about how you think and your over- analyzations. You seemed bothered by this more than my wife is. Could it be that you're putting yourself in the shoes that you think my wife is wearing? Could it be you're associating or fantasizing yourself as being married to me? maybe you imagine me as someone who has hurt you in the past?


LOL.....I'm not offended at all. I'm only putting myself in your wife's place and imagining how it must feel (based on what you've shared). It's called "empathy".....and I typically do pretty well at it. Like I said earlier.......if you continue to have the same attitudes and perspectives, you are going to continue getting the same response. You need to (IMO) get off this path (if you do want marital healing).....and that may take a different way of seeing things. If you only want to hear an echo of your own voice......that's not going to get you anywhere good. You don't have to worry......I am *not* fantasizing in the least about being married to you. I'm not "over analyzing" either........it's just that I have a different perspective than you . Perhaps (since this is *your* marriage we are talking about) you should maybe analyze a bit more?


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> LOL.....I'm not offended at all. I'm only putting myself in your wife's place and imagining how it must feel (based on what you've shared). * It's called "empathy".....and I typically do pretty well at it. *Like I said earlier.......if you continue to have the same attitudes and perspectives, you are going to continue getting the same response. You need to (IMO) get off this path (if you do want marital healing).....and that may take a different way of seeing things. If you only want to hear an echo of your own voice......that's not going to get you anywhere good. You don't have to worry......I am *not* fantasizing in the least about being married to you. I'm not "over analyzing" either........it's just that I have a different perspective than you . Perhaps (since this is *your* marriage we are talking about) you should maybe analyze a bit more?


Only for women apparently.


----------



## mkgal1

Uncool.....when you say you normally only speak to your family 3 times per year.......is that typically during the holidays and birthdays? Will things sort of "simmer down" now that the holidays are over (for now)?


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> Only for women apparently.


What are you saying.......that men aren't capable of empathy? (Because I highly disagree).


----------



## FalconKing

Mkgal1, If I were to assume that you believe that this is all his fault and everything done to him by his wife is a reaction of something he did to her, would I be correct in that assumption? 



mkgal1 said:


> Condemning her for not associating with your mom......and calling it "holding a grudge"........blaming her for things that she has no control over.......are all not examples of "being kind". If you want your marriage to turn around, there's going to have to be change. Otherwise.......it's going to only continue to be more of the same (although maybe escalated and worse).


His wife was the first to hold a grudge. She also wrote that she wished his brother and mother die. Can you imagine doing something like that to your husband? If so, would you feel that you were wrong or that he made you do it? If you are in a relationship and you do something bad to a man, do you always feel he made you do it? Do you feel that women are inherently good and men are evil? If a woman wrote here that her husband wrote in a journal he wished her family members die would you be as understanding for him as you are for this man's wife? And what if she was also trying to have sex but he didn't want it? And then he cried when she was pregnant with another one of their children?




> She's probably grown to accept that this is going to be the arrangement, and that leaving is her only way of dealing with it without being rude herself. It was you that seemed to think that whole incident was her (your wife's) fault. It seems that the only acceptable (in your eyes) response for her to have would be to stay put, and pretend that she was happy to see your folks. That's not fair to her. She should be allowed her own feelings (even if they are separate from yours). I realize that you were the one bothered by this incident, which is why I originally said that your parents were ultimately being disrespectful to *you* (and your wife is getting the fall out from it). What would have been *your* ideal outcome in all that? How would you have liked for everyone to have behaved?


She has been rude. Many many times to him. I don't think he wants her to pretend. I think he wants her to communicate and be kind. And you are right. She should be allowed to have her own feelings. So let me also ask you this. If a woman posted here that her husband was angry about her parent showing up and dropping off packages in the driveway would you tell her he has a right to be angry about that. What if his feelings were that of anger or just indifference towards her? Is he right to feel that too?


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> What are you saying.......that men aren't capable of empathy? (Because I highly disagree).


No. I was just curious about your capacity to have empathy for men. Especially if they are in conflict with women.


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> No. I was just curious about your capacity to have empathy for men. Especially if they are in conflict with women.


This isn't about sides.....or blame......or gender.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> This isn't about sides.....or blame......or gender.


:scratchhead:

Are you serious?


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> Only for women apparently.


Untrue.


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Are you serious?


Yes.....I'm serious. Uncool is on here asking for how he can deal with this.....and I am offering my suggestions. If I were to only agree with him (and I'm *not* disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing)....but, he'd have no knew perspective. He'd also stay stuck.....right where he is. I don't think that's where he wants to be.

My wanting for uncool's marriage to be healed (not ending in divorce) isn't a lack of empathy for him.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> Yes.....I'm serious. Uncool is on here asking for how he can deal with this.....and I am offering my suggestions. If I were to only agree with him (and I'm *not* disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing)....but, he'd have no knew perspective. He'd also stay stuck.....right where he is. I don't think that's where he wants to be.
> 
> My wanting for uncool's marriage to be healed (not ending in divorce) isn't a lack of empathy for him.


What empathy have you shown him? Everything you have suggested victimizes his wife and gives her a pass for her behavior. Are you not going to answer my questions from my other posts? You don't have to. I would understand


----------



## ravioli

You're in a tough one buddy. Word of advice, some women are always going to take the wife's side no matter what. In this case going tit for tat with some posters is an exercise in futility.


----------



## brokenbythis

Dad&Hubby said:


> I don't care what was said (within reason), if his mother has apologized, it's time for the wife to FRIGGING GROW UP and be an adult. His family IS her family. They have kids. She can't keep doing this to her family because she's THAT PETTY and can't let go of a grudge. At SOME point, you have to mend fences in a family (unless something truly disturbing happened like abuse).


HELL NO it's not petty if the MIL continues to insult her. Take my crazy MIL for example. She suffers from borderline personality disorder. She is also passive aggressive. The woman has caused so many rifts and toxic sludge to flow through every part of my husband's family. We stopped seeing her about 8 yrs ago. She has not seen our son since he was an infant.

Forgiveness is one thing, but when they are mentally ill, refuse to get treatment or take meds, and assault people mentally on a daily basis, its not petty to stay away.


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> Mkgal1, If I were to assume that you believe that this is all his fault and everything done to him by his wife is a reaction of something he did to her, would I be correct in that assumption?


Actually.......no, you are *not* correct. If I had to place "blame".....I'd say it is his mother's "fault" and that she is being divisive and passive aggressive and he (uncool) doesn't recognize it, because he grew up with it. 

He was frustrated about the presents being dumped in the driveway....and, I said that his mother is disrespecting him (uncool). He seems afraid to put blame on her (his mother)....and I wonder if that has to do with how his father has a firm boundary around "disrespecting" his mother.


----------



## FalconKing

brokenbythis said:


> HELL NO it's not petty if the MIL continues to insult her. Take my crazy MIL for example. She suffers from borderline personality disorder. She is also passive aggressive. The woman has caused so many rifts and toxic sludge to flow through every part of my husband's family. We stopped seeing her about 8 yrs ago. She has not seen our son since he was an infant.
> 
> Forgiveness is one thing, but when they are mentally ill, refuse to get treatment or take meds, and assault people mentally on a daily basis, its not petty to stay away.


Uncool never said his mother was mentally ill or abusive. You are using an extreme situation to counter a valid reasoning. Also, _Dad&Hubby_ had in parenthesis 


> unless something truly disturbing happened like abuse


So you don't really disapprove what he is saying. I think you just wanted to get off your chest how crazy your MIL is. That's cool


----------



## EleGirl

brokenbythis said:


> HELL NO it's not petty if the MIL continues to insult her. Take my crazy MIL for example. She suffers from borderline personality disorder. She is also passive aggressive. The woman has caused so many rifts and toxic sludge to flow through every part of my husband's family. We stopped seeing her about 8 yrs ago. She has not seen our son since he was an infant.
> 
> Forgiveness is one thing, but when they are mentally ill, refuse to get treatment or take meds, and assault people mentally on a daily basis, its not petty to stay away.


From what Uncool has said, his mother did not insult his wife. His mother has never insulted his wife.

You story has nothing to do with uncool's situation.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> Actually.......no, you are *not* correct. If I had to place "blame".....I'd say it is his mother's "fault" and that she is being divisive and passive aggressive and he (uncool) doesn't recognize it, because he grew up with it.
> 
> He was frustrated about the presents being dumped in the driveway....and, I said that his mother is disrespecting him (uncool). He seems afraid to put blame on her (his mother)....and I wonder if that has to do with how his father has a firm boundary around "disrespecting" his mother.


You are saying whatever you can to not acknowledge his wife's destructive and disrespectful behavior. It's so obvious that you have problems acknowledging negative things women do in marriages. This is probably why uncool will never take your advice. Why would anyone take advice from someone who at least can not even acknowledge that something bad has been done to them. She has to be accountable for her actions just as much as you are trying to make him. There are two sides to every story but if someone gave very obvious examples of a spouse treating them like crap I would at least acknowledge their feelings and frustration.


----------



## Thundarr

Many of the posts that I look back on that seem helpful just dissapear amongst he said/she said context. I haven't heard much in response to them.

OP do you think your marriage even has a chance? It seems like she checked out in 02 or 03 and like you've checked our for a few years as well. If so then maybe this topic is really about if people should be together and miserable purely for the sake of the kids.

To have any chance at all you guys have to both decide it's worth attempting. Then try something like His Needs/Her needs together. If you're not both on board to attempt it then you're waisting time and teaching terrible lessons to the kids. Thus far they're learning to stay in a loveless marriage.

So Uncool. *If you could rename this thread, what would the new name be? Surely you don't still think wife/mom drama is the real problem.*


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> You are saying whatever you can to not acknowledge his wife's destructive and disrespectful behavior. It's so obvious that you have problems acknowledging negative things women do in marriages. This is probably why uncool will never take your advice. Why would anyone take advice from someone who at least can not even acknowledge that something bad has been done to them. She has to be accountable for her actions just as much as you are trying to make him. There are two sides to every story but if someone gave very obvious examples of a spouse treating them like crap I would at least acknowledge their feelings and frustration.


The very quote that you used of mine *is* acknowledging his frustration.....and I am saying it's a negative thing a woman is doing that's disrespectful to *him* (that's why he has the frustration---it's healthy to feel like that when you are being disrespected and one is bringing unnecessary conflict upon you). Ironically......I'm kind of standing alone in even believing he was disrespected in that way (yet I'm being accused of lacking empathy for him?). What his mother is doing is called "crazy making". It's subtle....and often deflects the blame away from the instigator.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> The very quote that you used of mine *is* acknowledging his frustration.....and I am saying it's a negative thing a woman is doing that's disrespectful to *him* (that's why he has the frustration---it's healthy to feel like that when you are being disrespected and one is bringing unnecessary conflict upon us). Ironically......I'm kind of standing alone in even believing he was disrespected in that way (yet I'm being accused of lacking empathy for him?). What his mother is doing is called "crazy making". It's subtle....and often deflects the blame away from the instigator.


You are lacking empathy for him in relation to how his wife is treating him. And you still don't admit his wife was wrong. I think you really grasped for straws about that theory on his mother. You are choosing to speculative theory over the obvious examples of bad things his wife has done. You don't hold the wife accountable for her actions. You never will. You are standing alone for that reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mkgal1

FalconKing said:


> You are lacking empathy for him in relation to how his wife is treating him. And you still don't admit his wife was wrong. I think you really grasped for straws about that theory on his mother. You are choosing to speculative theory over the obvious examples of bad things his wife has done. You don't hold the wife accountable for her actions. You never will. You are standing alone for that reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy. I'm just giving my honest (and unbiased) perspective.


----------



## Thundarr

mkgal1 said:


> Wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy. I'm just giving my honest (and unbiased) perspective.


In that case we have yet to hear your alternate theories where uncool's wife has actually perpetuated or caused their failing marriage. That would be the alternate perspective. Of course no one has a completely unbiased perspective.


----------



## FalconKing

mkgal1 said:


> Wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy. I'm just giving my honest (and unbiased) perspective.


I really should leave this alone. But you most certainly have been biased. And the fact that you refused to see it saddens me. No man should take ALL responsibility for the bad things done to him by his wife. Men can be victims too. Did you ever say the wife was wrong for some of the things she did? I don't recall. It's like those counselors that try to convince someone it's partly their fault when a partner has an affair. The OP knows you think this is all his fault or his mother(apparently). Maybe you have a need for unwavering love and affection in your life. But you can't treat a man any kind of way and then say its all his problem to fix. You expect that from a child. Not an adult in a committed relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chris Taylor

uncool said:


> *when I went for 6-8months without touching my wife... it wasn't a punishment to her. It was a gift and she loved it and still loves not being touched. I want her to be happy and this appears to make her happy.


Again, I go back to my post where I said it's over. She's biding her time and ANYTHING you try to do is just spinning your wheels.

if you want to find out now, rather than have her dump you when the kids are out of school, tell her you agree with the divorce and start the paperwork. See how she reacts.

But if you can't take the hint from her accepting celibacy, insults, coldness and thoughts from her journal as an indication it's over, you never will (until she walks out the door).


----------



## uncool

Thundarr said:


> hmm. Standing up setting boundaries for your core principles like the value of family and for respect of the people around you are key to being someone that your wife can respect. You give her and yourself something to admire. It's not an alpha/beta thing at all as plenty of women are married guys of each type. Guys that hold themselves, their friends, their wives, their children accountable for being respectful. Beta guys and Alpha guys who flat out aren't willing to be treated disrespectfully and who return it. Generally these are guys who love their wife but would be willing to move on if their wife doesn't treat them right. I think they are the guys the wife comes running back to because she feels like he makes her a better person, holds her to a high standard, loves her with a high standard. Guys who want awesome and not just good enough.


 considered and well spoken thanks. Past 2yrs I've been in the process of turning from beta to alpha and my wife knows it. It's not an easy process. It has been very emotional to me to quit being as madly in love with her as I was. I believe this was a fault of mine. 



mkgal1 said:


> Condemning her for not associating with your mom..*Nope haven't condemed her for it*....and calling it "holding a grudge"...*oh yes she is the champion grudge holder of all time.*....blaming her for things that she has no control over...*nope I haven't done that either*....are all not examples of "being kind". If you want your marriage to turn around, there's going to have to be change. *but you're idea for my change is being submissive and telling her it's all my fault. This would be lying and shoving myself deeper in to "beta male" mode*......it's going to only continue to be more of the same (although maybe escalated and worse). *no because she's learning that I will move on and that she can be replaced with a better woman. She knows now but is very stubborn to give up her little control dynasty*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's probably grown to accept that this is going to be the arrangement, and that leaving is her only way of dealing with it without being rude herself. *the door is wide open for her to leave* It was you that seemed to think that whole incident was her (your wife's) It seems that the only acceptable (in your eyes) response for her to have would be to stay put, and pretend that she was happy to see your folks. *I just want her to be an adult. My inlaws are total weirdo's and practice terrible things like disowning their own kids, backbiting relatives etc... but I'm an adult about it and participate in her family functions without throwing a silent temper tantrum because I love and support my wife. Calling her mom and dad a bunch of loosers is not the way to strengthen my marriage or increase affection with my wife *She should be allowed her own feelings (even if they are separate from yours) *yes and they are. I just want her to be respectful to those who don't mean to offend her.* I realize that you were the one bothered by this incident, which is why I originally said that your parents were ultimately being disrespectful to *you* (and your wife is getting the fall out from it) *no you just assumed that...remember?.* What would have been *your* ideal outcome in all that? How would you have liked for everyone to have behaved? *It would have been nice if I felt comfortable enough to invite my folks in to my own house (since my wife has set no boundaries) and to have my wife be muture enough to handle them comming inside for a second to wish everyone a merry christmas. Just like I'm mature enough to handle my own inlaws childish behavior. Which I do it for my wife because I love her and try to show a little respect. *





mkgal1 said:


> Uncool.....when you say you normally only speak to your family 3 times per year.......is that typically during the holidays and birthdays? Will things sort of "simmer down" now that the holidays are over (for now)?


yes and kind of. It's the hardest time of year for me because it's a season to be "Christ-like" whereas family is closer to each other and has family events. I feel I sacrifice a lot for her and receive nothing back.



Thundarr said:


> OP do you think your marriage even has a chance?


 yes or I wouldn't be still trying. The last few days have been extremely good. We made love, then she's been flirting with me and nice to me for the past few days. She even slept next to me and snuggled up to me! It's been many months and that's huge! I'm just trying to make it last a little longer. I'm trying to get it to have staying power and analyze the events that led up to this and try to do a repeat. It's hard because she usually fades so quickly.


Thundarr said:


> It seems like she checked out in 02 or 03 and like you've checked our for a few years as well. If so then maybe this topic is really about if people should be together and miserable purely for the sake of the kids.


 yes it has gone off topic, but no, I'd have started another thread if that's what I was shooting for.



Thundarr said:


> To have any chance at all you guys have to both decide it's worth attempting. Then try something like His Needs/Her needs together.


 that's a book you're talking about right? yes, I own that book and she refuses to read it.


Thundarr said:


> If you're not both on board to attempt it then you're waisting time and teaching terrible lessons to the kids. Thus far they're learning to stay in a loveless marriage.


 agreed. She says she's trying even though it's hard to see. She keeps blaming stuff on her medical conditions. Just when I'm ready to throw in the towel (like when I started this post the other day, she springs back with decency for a few days.



Thundarr said:


> So Uncool if you could rename this thread, what would the new name be?


 I see where you're going about if maybe I fix my marriage then my wife will be nice to my mom again. I have no faith that will happen. So the thread name is just fine


Thundarr said:


> Surely you don't still think wife/mom drama is the real problem


 yes it's still a real problem that I'd like this thread to be focused on. She told me during our mini-therapy session that her feelings toward my mother have effected her feelings towards me. Making me the victim. I have other threads dealing with my marriage mostly written during my more "beta" male times. I think that if I were to somehow magically get my wife to fall madly in love with me again that she would still hate my mother to the core because of her stubborn-ness and lack of forgiveness. I think I started this thread to get ideas on how to handle it and what "not" to put up with and how. Thanks for your posts buddy. I appreciate them and the insights gathered from everyone here.


----------



## uncool

Chris Taylor said:


> But if you can't take the hint from her accepting celibacy, insults, coldness and thoughts from her journal as an indication it's over, you never will (until she walks out the door).


yes and I whole heartedly agree with with you and I did take that hint. Only "I'M" the one who walked out the door. I got that hint called a divorce attorney and moved my ass out. Yep I left her after reading that.


----------



## Thundarr

Thanks for replying and answering questions and speculations uncool.

Maybe this seems like a tiny thing but what I noticed in that post with so many answers and points is that you actually have material that MAY help yet she's unwilling to even read it. That just feels unacceptable. It seems very similar to being unwilling to even try to make amends with your mother. She's got to help here. Good luck.


----------



## Prodigal

uncool said:


> I feel I sacrifice a lot for her and receive nothing back.
> 
> ... if maybe I fix my marriage then my wife will be nice to my mom again. I have no faith that will happen. ... She told me during our mini-therapy session that her feelings toward my mother have effected her feelings towards me. Making me the victim. ... I think that if I were to somehow magically get my wife to fall madly in love with me again that she would still hate my mother to the core because of her stubborn-ness and lack of forgiveness. I think I started this thread to get ideas on how to handle it and what "not" to put up with and how.


Let's say, for the sake of speculation, that your wife fell madly in love with you once again. Would that be enough, since she would still hate your mother "to the core"?

Can you be comfortable with someone who acts like this?


----------



## Prodigal

uncool said:


> I think I started this thread to get ideas on how to handle it and what "not" to put up with and how.


uncool, I hope you come back and respond to my questions. If you don't, I would understand, considering your thread was hijacked for a number of pages while other posters argued semantics ...

I just wanted to know if your supposition that your wife would continue to hate your mom would be something you could not put up with. If choose to focus on your marriage and make your wife's issues with your mom secondary, I wanted to know how you would consider handling it.


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> yes and I whole heartedly agree with with you and I did take that hint. Only "I'M" the one who walked out the door.* I got that hint called a divorce attorney and moved my ass out. Yep I left her after reading that.*


and




uncool said:


> -2011 I get an apartment and move out. *Wife doesn't know I've even left for over a week after I'd gone. Didn't even notice *all my stuff was gone. I mail her a letter about why I left


A wife not even noticing that her husband is gone says to me that you were not very involved and engaged with your marriage and family at all.

Now you are saying "it's been better" and you are trying to analyze why? Could it be that you are spending more time with her? The Policy of Unidivided Attention


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> It has been very emotional to me to quit being as madly in love with her as I was. I believe this was a fault of mine.


I don't think what you had was "love" by the biblical definition.



uncool said:


> She keeps blaming stuff on her medical conditions. Just when I'm ready to throw in the towel (like when I started this post the other day, she springs back with decency for a few days.


It might be nice if you were compassionate about her Hashimoto's. My 17 yo daughter has that and it is treatable. I certainly hope it doesn't cripple DD's future (I was worried she wouldn't ever have children because she doesn't menstruate but apparently your wife was able).

Anyway, eventually it would be nice to be a team being supportive of one another dealing and addressing medical issues that affect your marriage instead of what I hear as "shame on you for having hashimoto's and low libido".


----------



## FalconKing

Blonde said:


> I don't think what you had was "love" by the biblical definition.
> 
> 
> 
> It might be nice if you were compassionate about her Hashimoto's. My 17 yo daughter has that and it is treatable. I certainly hope it doesn't cripple DD's future (I was worried she wouldn't ever have children because she doesn't menstruate but apparently your wife was able).
> 
> Anyway, eventually it would be nice to be a team being supportive of one another dealing and addressing medical issues that affect your marriage instead of* what I hear as "shame on you for having hashimoto's and low libido".*


A prime example of hearing what you want to hear I suppose. Welcome back to the thread Blonde. I would like to pose the same questions to you that I asked before.

Do you think all problems in a marriage start and end with the man?

Personally, do you trust men?


----------



## Prodigal

Blonde and FalconKing ... I see the validity of both your points of view. However, do you think you could take your disagreement to another post or to PM's? uncool has already stated he is uncomfortable with the back-and-forth arguing on HIS thread. You are hijacking the original thread with your disagreement(s).

Again, I see the validity of your posts, but you may have chased the OP away ... and isn't the main point of this thread to address the OP and not the different perspectives we have?


----------



## Vrs

So many times it's the opposite, with the mother not approving of the daughter-in-law. My sister has disliked everyone of her sons wives. She's always opinionated and questions why they do things the way they do and tells them how she would do it, and expects them to change and be like her I guess. To me that's the worst way you can possibly be. Why wouldn't I want to be on the good side of one of my kids spouses? Why add stress to their marriage and put this strain between them? 

It's not as common (don't know any stats to back that up, I'm just going on my own observations) for the daughter-in-law to have such disdain for their husbands parent. It's usually one of the parents being overly controlling.

It's also a form of disrespect for the husband. That's his mom she's hating. She should attempt to get along well with the in-laws just out of respect for her husband. And definitely for their kids. Yes, it's good she's ok with them seeing their grandparents, but it's a huge issue for her to cut his parents out of her life. What's probably going to happen is someday one of her kids will marry and their spouse will do the same thing to her. Then she'll know how it feels.


----------



## FalconKing

Prodigal said:


> Blonde and FalconKing ... I see the validity of both your points of view. However, do you think you could take your disagreement to another post or to PM's? uncool has already stated he is uncomfortable with the back-and-forth arguing on HIS thread. You are hijacking the original thread with your disagreement(s).
> 
> Again, I see the validity of your posts, but you may have chased the OP away ... and isn't the main point of this thread to address the OP and not the different perspectives we have?


If you see my posts you would see that I was trying to help. But I felt that some posters weren't recognizing that uncool was hurt by his wife actions. I have not offered him any resistance on that front. I think that is what drove him off. Perhaps you are trying to shame me to stop this. But I'm just not going to ignore someone giving advice that would only to be helpful to the person hurting the one who asked for it in the first place. You could PM the OP yourself. Don't get annoyed with me just because he hasn't responded to your post yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Plus uncool wears big boy pants so back and forth only ran him off if he chose it. I think he'll chime back in sometime.


----------



## Prodigal

Y'know, I just came on here in the hope to get the thread back on track. I'm not ticked off, defensive, or annoyed that uncool hasn't returned. Honestly. 

I am just some schlub in cyberspace. If anyone thinks I'm being a jerk, it's no skin off my nose. Not my side of the street. 

Life is too short. You people want to get all personal about this sheet, fine by me.

uncool, I hope you come back. I'm rooting for ya!


----------



## FalconKing

Prodigal said:


> Y'know, I just came on here in the hope to get the thread back on track. I'm not ticked off, defensive, or annoyed that uncool hasn't returned. Honestly.
> 
> I am just some schlub in cyberspace. If anyone thinks I'm being a jerk, it's no skin off my nose. Not my side of the street.
> 
> Life is too short. You people want to get all personal about this sheet, fine by me.
> 
> uncool, I hope you come back. I'm rooting for ya!


Awesome post. Thanks for taking the time to say how NOT bothered you are. You go girl!:smthumbup:


----------



## uncool

Prodigal said:


> Let's say, for the sake of speculation, that your wife fell madly in love with you once again. Would that be enough, since she would still hate your mother "to the core"?
> 
> Can you be comfortable with someone who acts like this?


 yes because I don't live with my mother. I would sacrifice my relationship with my mother for my wife. I would do this for her if she would start being my wife. Would I like this? not so much but it's a lot better than what I have now.
Ideally yes I'd like a wife who repects me and my mother but I'm not being picky at the moment.



Prodigal said:


> I just wanted to know if your supposition that your wife would continue to hate your mom would be something you could not put up with. If choose to focus on your marriage and make your wife's issues with your mom secondary, I wanted to know how you would consider handling it.


 I have been focusing on my marriage for many years now and yes I've made the issues with her and my mother secondary. I felt I've done exactly this. I would do this for her and gladly sacrifice my mother to have a wife who is in love with me again. Absolutely. 
Does it pain me when she treats my mother like crap and talks negatively about her? yes it does. Do I reprimand her? no because I feel that would show her that I choose my mother over her... which I don't.


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> A wife not even noticing that her husband is gone says to me that you were not very involved and engaged with your marriage and family at all.


 *how in the crap do you arrive at this twisted conclusion?* seriously? I am very involved the best way I know how with my wife and I spend oodles of time with each of my 4 children every single day. 



Blonde said:


> Now you are saying "it's been better" and you are trying to analyze why? Could it be that you are spending more time with her?


 nope not at all. She makes not indication that she likes to spend any time with me? In fact she makes it very very well known that she likes space from me. I try whole heartedly to give this to her and make her as happy as I can.
In fact just this weekend I mentioned that I'd like to take her out on a mini date to get some frozen yogurt. She blew me off and changed the subject. We haven't gone on even a simple date for longer than I can remember. I'd jump on the opportunity though if she were to hint that she'd like to spend time with me.


----------



## Prodigal

uncool said:


> She makes not indication that she likes to spend any time with me? In fact she makes it very very well known that she likes space from me. I try whole heartedly to give this to her and make her as happy as I can.
> In fact just this weekend I mentioned that I'd like to take her out on a mini date to get some frozen yogurt. She blew me off and changed the subject. We haven't gone on even a simple date for longer than I can remember. I'd jump on the opportunity though if she were to hint that she'd like to spend time with me.


uncool, I'm glad you returned. I know you stated in an earlier post that you were becoming more alpha. But now I don't see that. JMO, mind you. I'm not living inside your head, so I can only give opinions based on what I read. Please correct me if I'm off track.

I understand you want to make your wife #1. No problem with that. But I think she gets kinda aggressive about her dislike towards your mother. I don't think it's alpha to not call her out on her behavior. See, it's not WHO she's treating like crap, it's HOW she's doing it. I don't think reading someone the riot act, holding grudges, and being a bit of a beyotch is acceptable behavior towards other folks, regardless of who they are.

And you mentioned that she projects her dislike of your mom onto you. Also unacceptable, IMO. She wants space. She doesn't want to go out with you. Frankly, it sounds like she doesn't particularly like, or respect, you.

My overall feeling, from reading everything you've posted thus far, is that your wife thinks her family and their ways are somehow better than (or superior) to your family. Like I said, it's not WHO she aims her hostility at, it's the fact that she hangs onto it. I hope what I'm saying makes sense.

It doesn't sound particularly alpha, to me at least, that you are bending over backwards to make her happy; even if her "happy" means to get the heck outta her way so she can have space. And the fact that she blew you off when you asked her to do something with you. I dunno, uncool, but your wife doesn't sound as if she likes or respects you.

Where do you see this marriage going? 'Cause it sounds like you are currently dealing with lots of hopes for improvement, but there's not much of that happening.


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> I don't think what you had was "love" by the biblical definition


 Yes but that's what she wants. 




Blonde said:


> It might be nice if you were compassionate about her Hashimoto's


 and it might be nice if you knew I was very compassionate about her medical issues. What gave you the idea that I wasn't compassionate over my wifes medical issues? What I'm saying is that she's using it as a new crutch as to why she can't be in love with me or even try to work on our relationship.


Blonde said:


> My 17 yo daughter has that and it is treatable


 yes you can shrink some of it's effects with proper diet but there's no cure


Blonde said:


> I certainly hope it doesn't cripple DD's future


 it shouldn't impact the love life your daughter has with her future husband at all. My wife's sister has hashimoto's and she can't keep her hands off of her husband. I almost have to look away and tell them to get a room they're so affectionate.



Blonde said:


> it would be nice to be a team being supportive of one another dealing and addressing medical issues that affect your marriage instead of what I hear as "shame on you for having hashimoto's and low libido".


 again you're pulling from your backside. How do you even get to this conclusion that I am the one not wanting to make a team effort. I am very supportive of her medical issues. I have not once shamed her for a having her medical issues. 
This would be rude and uncalled for as a husband. You are hearing only what you want to hear. Hashimoto's disease does not mean she has a free pass to ignore her husband or marriage. 
My friends wife has a low libido and they hold hands in public and they've kissed more than once a year, and she's accepted his invitation to go on a simple date, and she's given him a valentines gift more than once in a decade, and she's given him the chance to try foreplay once in a while, and she's shown him little slices of affection both in public and in private, and she blushes, smiles and stares in to his eyes when he praises her and vice versa, and she tells him that she loves him. She has her mom watch the kids while they go away for their 20th anniversary, and she's in love with her husband. She loves him and respects him as her husband.
I don't have any of that so you can take the hashimoto's excuse and flush it down the toilet


----------



## uncool

Prodigal said:


> uncool, I'm glad you returned. I know you stated in an earlier post that you were becoming more alpha. But now I don't see that. JMO, mind you. I'm not living inside your head, so I can only give opinions based on what I read. Please correct me if I'm off track.*yes I am being more alpha than beta the past year or so. I corrected her on the spot the other day when she disrespected me in front of the kids. I just don't want the definition of alpha to mean divorce. *
> 
> I understand you want to make your wife #1. No problem with that. But I think she gets kinda aggressive about her dislike towards your mother. *yes, if i ever question it she gets right in my face and tells me how evil she is* I don't think it's alpha to not call her out on her behavior. *you're right, I probably need help knowing what to say back to her. I sometimes get nervous and draw a blank on what to say in those situations* See, it's not WHO she's treating like crap, it's HOW she's doing it. I don't think reading someone the riot act, holding grudges, and being a bit of a beyotch is acceptable behavior towards other folks, regardless of who they are. *agreed*
> 
> And you mentioned that she projects her dislike of your mom onto you. *yes she told me this a few months ago after denying it for years* Also unacceptable, IMO. She wants space. She doesn't want to go out with you. Frankly, it sounds like she doesn't particularly like, or respect, you. *yes I agree. now how to turn that around*
> 
> My overall feeling, from reading everything you've posted thus far, is that your wife thinks her family and their ways are somehow better than (or superior) to your family. *yes even though her family has serious issues within themselves like disowning family members who offend them * Like I said, it's not WHO she aims her hostility at, it's the fact that she hangs onto it. I hope what I'm saying makes sense. *yes, crystal clear*
> 
> It doesn't sound particularly alpha, to me at least, that you are bending over backwards to make her happy; *yes but I'm mostly describing the past in some of my posts* even if her "happy" means to get the heck outta her way so she can have space. *so do I stay then and annoy the hell out of her? *And the fact that she blew you off when you asked her to do something with you. I dunno, uncool, but your wife doesn't sound as if she likes or respects you. *yes, you're right  and it's hard to fix*
> 
> Where do you see this marriage going? 'Cause it sounds like you are currently dealing with lots of hopes for improvement, but there's not much of that happening.


yes, you're right. but I'm a persistant type of guy and have 18yrs invested in my marriage.. I just can't go file for divorce this easily. I wan't to try to save my family and won't give up till all avenues are exhausted.


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> Yes but that's what she wants.


I don't think she wants rejection. I think she wants to be loved.

I got the impressions I did from the way you wrote about her disease and its effects and from your testimony that you withdrew affection from her for 6 months as a consequence of her sexual rejection. And what was that word you used when she tried to be more sexual for you despite her limitations? Was it "disgusting"? IIRC

Her libido may be low d/t hashimotos but that does not mean she doesn't want love and affection.

The Importance of Non-Sexual Affection | Refresh | MarriageToday


----------



## Blonde

uncool said:


> My friends wife has a low libido and they hold hands in public and they've kissed more than once a year, and she's accepted his invitation to go on a simple date, and she's given him a valentines gift more than once in a decade, and she's given him the chance to try foreplay once in a while, and she's shown him little slices of affection both in public and in private, and she blushes, smiles and stares in to his eyes when he praises her and vice versa, and she tells him that she loves him. She has her mom watch the kids while they go away for their 20th anniversary, and she's in love with her husband. She loves him and respects him as her husband.


She is responding to the nurturing atmosphere her husband provides. Eph 5:29


----------



## Prodigal

I understand you want to try everything possible to save your marriage. But it sounds like your wife isn't on board with that plan. Getting in your face? Nope. You don't need a special answer. You tell her it's unacceptable and disrespectful behavior. You leave the room. You leave the house. You make it clear she is crossing a boundary.

Doing a 180 and becoming alpha is for you. It may bring about change in her, it may not. Ultimately, nobody has the power to change another person, unless they choose to change.

If your staying around your wife - and I assume you are not behaving like a needy whimp when she wants "space" - is annoying the hell outta her, then I get the sense she just doesn't like having you around all that much.

I'm all for saving a marriage, but when only one party is sincerely invested in doing that, I don't think it has much hope. I was married to a man who didn't treat me with respect. I hung in there for a long time. Then I realized that no matter how tolerant I was, or patient, or whatever, HE wasn't going to change. I eventually left.

If you see evidence that your wife is willing to change, or meet you halfway, then keep trying.


----------



## Hortensia

I can't understand those of you who put your wife above your mother. 
It is the mother who gave you life, raised you with love, made sacrifices for you to lack nothing. It is your mother who took care of you when you've been sick, forgave you for your worst behaviour, put her needs above her own. It is the mother who will always love you unconditionaally, despite your flaws, despite distance, despite anything. 
what did your wife do to equal all that? You may wake up one day and find your wife has cheated, or/ and stopped loving you and no longer wants to be with you. You will then remember your mother, and go cry on her shoulder. And she would still be there for you, and forgive you for putting her on the second place. 
You can find a xxxxx number of women/ men that could become your spouse. But you only have one mom.
I'm not saying all wifes are bad or will end up disappointing you
. But even so, how can she ever be more worthy than your mom? It's sad to think that you raised a child, dacrificed all for him, and when you're old and most need him, when is his turn to take care of you, his wife comes first and all you've done is forgotten. What's the point in having kids then...
I love my hubby more than my own life but i cant say i put him above my mother. If my mom dorsnt like him, she needs to respect my choice. It is me who live with him. But i would never tolerate my husband to speak ill of my mother, restrict my time with her or my choices of how to take care of her. I would treat him and his parents with the same consideration in return. 
Asking your spouse to choose, or affirming your spouse is more important than your mother...that is just sad, and wrong...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

Not everyone had that kind of relationship with their mother - Hortensia. Some never put their own needs above yours, some never raised you with love, and never sacrificed anything for you. So - if you did, awesome - but you shouldn't assume everyone else had the same. 

As to this..


> my choices of how to take care of her.


What exactly does this mean? Does this mean moving her into his house without his permission? Are you planning on taking his parents in as well? 

I'd argue what's the point of getting married if the only point is to have another person who can help you take care of your parents.


----------



## Thundarr

Hortensia said:


> If my mom dorsnt like him, she needs to respect my choice. It is me who live with him. But i would never tolerate my husband to speak ill of my mother, restrict my time with her or my choices of how to take care of her. I would treat him and his parents with the same consideration in return.
> Asking your spouse to choose, or affirming your spouse is more important than your mother...that is just sad, and wrong...


It's pretty simple isn't it. I don't understand how this isn't obvious and I sure don't know how to make someone who doesn't see it understand. It's not supposed to be a learned thing. It's part of my humanity.


----------



## Hortensia

Starstarfish said:


> Not everyone had that kind of relationship with their mother - Hortensia. Some never put their own needs above yours, some never raised you with love, and never sacrificed anything for you. So - if you did, awesome - but you shouldn't assume everyone else had the same.
> 
> As to this..
> 
> What exactly does this mean? Does this mean moving her into his house without his permission? Are you planning on taking his parents in as well?
> 
> I'd argue what's the point of getting married if the only point is to have another person who can help you take care of your parents.


No, i'm not saying taking her to live with us - married couples need their own space. But i would not accept him telling me that i visit her too often ( about every 2 days, we live in the same city), or that i spend too much on her if she was ill and needed special care. Thats what i meant by choices of how to take care of her.
I wouldnt accept that he disrespected her in my presence , speak ill of her, or the " your mom or me" ultimatum. I find that as an absurd request.
I'm talking here about normal relationship with moms. Not about moms who gavee you up when you were little, ran away with a guy and left their children, or was basically tooo drunk, negligent and selfish to be a mom. I'm reffering to the majority of mothers who have been good mothers...why should they be put beneath the wives/ husbands ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## uncool

Blonde said:


> I don't think she wants rejection


 I have never ever rejected my wife


Blonde said:


> I think she wants to be loved


 nope you're wrong. She absolutely does not want love from me. My wife is a different female for sure. I think she just wants to be room mates.



Blonde said:


> I got the impressions I did from the way you wrote about her disease and its effects and from your testimony that you withdrew affection from her for 6 months as a consequence of her sexual rejection.


 unfortunately no, I did this as a gift to her. She made it known every way possible that she does not want any affection comming from me. 


Blonde said:


> And what was that word you used when she tried to be more sexual for you despite her limitations? Was it "disgusting"? IIRC


 yes i did use that word, and yes it was disgusting at the time. The reason why it was disgusting is because she was using what I call "weaponized sex". Whereas she was only "acting" sexual at that time for one reason only... and that was so I'd come back home. Shortly thereafter she quit being intimate because she had me back. You see she only values my man skills; I'm a handy man, a computer technician, a car mechanic, an interior re-modeler, a paycheck provider and a good father. I've been providing these needs and services to her for all these years without her ever having to provide for her husbands needs. My needs require far less effort. How hard is it to love your man once in a while? to let him know you love and appreciate him? is it really that hard? So yes, it was very disgusting to me at the time because she showed me that my benefits were the only thing valuable of me her.



Blonde said:


> Her libido may be low d/t hashimotos but that does not mean she doesn't want love and affection.


 but she absolutely does NOT want any love and affection at all. Period. Yes, you're right, this doesn't have anything to do with hashimoto's disease.




Blonde said:


> She is responding to the nurturing atmosphere her husband provides. Eph 5:29


 NO !!!! thats the problem, she's not responding to it at all. This is the problem. I'm nice to her, I try to flirt with her all the time, I rub her shoulders and neck and feet, I clean the bathroom, I do the dishes. I make dinner when her hashimotos kicks up and her energy is drained. I make special trips to the store in big snowstorms at all hours of the night to get her favorite chocolate and diet sodas. I encourage her to tell me how she'd like her kitchen remodeled. I help the kids with their homeworks while she watches tv. Today I got all the kids ready for church and made sure the car was nice and warm for her when she was ready to go.. I encourage her to tell me what she needs and wants to make her happy. 
I know you're trying to find some way that I suck. Truth is I'm not perfect... but damn... throw me a bone here lady !


----------



## Prodigal

Here's what I'm hearing now: your wife just isn't into you. Frankly, and this is only my opinion, she sounds like a pretty miserable, unhappy person. Life is too darned short for me to horse around with this type of sheet. Yes, I realize you have a great deal emotionally invested in your marriage. You love your children. You want your wife to be happy.

But you are NOT being alpha. In fact, it sounds like you are getting frustrated and disgusted trying to make your wife happy. I'm not saying you should act like a d!ck, but I'd quit with being Mr. Nice Guy. She doesn't appreciate it. You feel unloved. 

You can't breathe life into a corpse. And, like it or not, you've got a lot of resentment built up over trying to please a beyotch of a wife. Nothing wrong with giving it your all, but maybe it's time to pull the plug.

You left, she used sex to get you back. Make-up sex is one thing, but it doesn't sound like that was her intent. As I say over and over again ... when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving, you will leave. 

I think you might want to consider doing more of a 180. I just don't see this marriage as having much life left in it. And I'd quit trying to make your wife happy. Sorry, but I think her showing such disrespect towards your mom sucks. And, as I noted before, it's not that it's your mom, per se. It's just the grudge-holding that I couldn't tolerate.


----------



## FalconKing

Hortensia said:


> No, i'm not saying taking her to live with us - married couples need their own space. But i would not accept him telling me that i visit her too often ( about every 2 days, we live in the same city), or that i spend too much on her if she was ill and needed special care. Thats what i meant by choices of how to take care of her.
> I wouldnt accept that he disrespected her in my presence , speak ill of her, or the " your mom or me" ultimatum. I find that as an absurd request.
> I'm talking here about normal relationship with moms. Not about moms who gavee you up when you were little, ran away with a guy and left their children, or was basically tooo drunk, negligent and selfish to be a mom. I'm reffering to the majority of mothers who have been good mothers...why should they be put beneath the wives/ husbands ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What if your husband found a great job in another city and that was his passion and offered you guys more financial freedom? Would you refuse to go if it meant being away from your family? i'm just curious. My job requires a lot of moving to promote. I've seen many guys divorce because their wives didn't want to leave their families.


----------



## FalconKing

uncool said:


> I know you're trying to find some way that I suck. Truth is I'm not perfect... but damn... throw me a bone here lady !


:iagree:. And hiding behind bible versus to protect your bias perspectives is a passive aggressive tactic. Now I understand why you protect his wife so much. Maybe you can relate to how she thinks. I'm still waiting on your response to my questions too.


----------



## inarut

FalconKing said:


> What if your husband found a great job in another city and that was his passion and offered you guys more financial freedom? Would you refuse to go if it meant being away from your family? i'm just curious. My job requires a lot of moving to promote. I've seen many guys divorce because their wives didn't want to leave their families.


My heart is going out to uncool at the moment. I have only read the last few pages or so of this thread so I may have missed a lot but your question interests me. I love my very dysfunctional family. I say all the time how I would love to leave and live in a completely different enviroment. It would be tough but I could do it (I think) given the right circumstances. Except, now that I am divorced I've got a 35 mile radius to work within so its a done deal..


----------



## Hortensia

Falconking, if my hubby found a great job in another city i would relocate without problems as long as my mom is still on her feet and in moderately good health. If she wasn't i dont know, we would have to find a solution coz i would not abandon her or put her in an institution. Im the only child so i could never do this. Same goes for his mom- she is widow and my hubby checks on her and does her shoppings, fix things, etc. I just don't think that we should abandon our parents when they are old and just go on with our lives and our new families. I'm not a mother yet, but if and when will be, would not want this from my child.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## inarut

Hortensia said:


> Falconking, if my hubby found a great job in another city i would relocate without problems as long as my mom is still on her feet and in moderately good health. If she wasn't i dont know, we would have to find a solution coz i would not abandon her or put her in an institution. Im the only child so i could never do this. Same goes for his mom- she is widow and my hubby checks on her and does her shoppings, fix things, etc. I just don't think that we should abandon our parents when they are old and just go on with our lives and our new families. I'm not a mother yet, but if and when will be, would not want this from my child.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would be a tough situation. Very personal and many factors to consider.


----------



## FalconKing

Hortensia said:


> Falconking, if my hubby found a great job in another city i would relocate without problems as long as my mom is still on her feet and in moderately good health. If she wasn't i dont know, we would have to find a solution coz i would not abandon her or put her in an institution. Im the only child so i could never do this. Same goes for his mom- she is widow and my hubby checks on her and does her shoppings, fix things, etc. I just don't think that we should abandon our parents when they are old and just go on with our lives and our new families. I'm not a mother yet, but if and when will be, would not want this from my child.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You sound like my father. Who is a good man(although I know you are a woman). I had an opportunity to live in another country and he guilt tripped me about abandoning the family and being selfish. He ordered me not to go and I did any way. It was the greatest experience of my life. So my views are that of not holding my child back. I will know my child loves me but I will not want to be a burden to them nor ask them to sacrifice opportunities in life just so I can see them everyday. I am not disrespecting your views. This is just where I am coming from.


----------



## inarut

FalconKing said:


> You sound like my father. Who is a good man(although I know you are a woman). I had an opportunity to live in another country *and he guilt tripped me about abandoning the family and being selfish.* He ordered me not to go and I did any way. It was the greatest experience of my life. So my views are that of not holding my child back. I will know my child loves me but I will not want to be a burden to them nor ask them to sacrifice opportunities in life just so I can see them everyday. I am not disrespecting your views. This is just where I am coming from.


Ahhh yes, the guilt and being accused of selfishness, some are pros at it. Ultimate mind game by those who I believe dont even realize what they are doing.


----------



## turnera

uncool said:


> I NO !!!! thats the problem, she's not responding to it at all. This is the problem. I'm nice to her, I try to *flirt with her* all the time, I *rub her shoulders* and neck and feet, I *clean the bathroom*, I *do the dishes*. I make *dinner* when her hashimotos kicks up and her energy is drained. I make *special trips to the store in big snowstorms* at all hours of the night to get her favorite chocolate and diet sodas. I encourage her to *tell me how she'd like her kitchen remodeled*. I *help the kids* with their homeworks while she watches tv. Today I got all the kids ready for church and made sure the *car was nice and warm for her* when she was ready to go.. I encourage her to *tell me what she needs and wants* to make her happy.
> I know you're trying to find some way that I suck. Truth is I'm not perfect... but damn... throw me a bone here lady !


 No, the problem IS that you're nice to her. you DO suck (no offense) as a good husband. You're a Giver, and you married a Taker, and you're too ... whatever ... to get off your butt and learn to change yourself. Good husbands don't become doormats and givegivegivegive and then just wait and hope they get something. They SAY what they want, they give consequences if they're getting walked on, they STOP giving if it's not reciprocated. Instead, you just keep giving more and more and more, thinking that what you are doing just needs to be done more - instead of EDUCATING yourself on why what you're doing isn't working.

I know it's been said before, but in case you missed it: Women have to respect their men. Women _despise_ weak men and refuse to do anything for them. It's biological, caveman days, and if you can't stand up for yourself, if you can't respect yourself, why should she?


----------



## uncool

turnera said:


> you DO suck (no offense) as a good husband. .... Women _despise_ weak men and refuse to do anything for them. If you can't respect yourself, why should she?


point taken and thank you for your female perspective. (at least I think you're female)
During our mini therapy session a year or so ago she complained I didn't do enough around the house. I was just glad she was communicating at all. (my wife has communication issues and I'm stuck guessing most of the time)
This is a tough line to walk for me. She tells me the house is a mess most of the time because of her lack of energy with her hashimoto's disease. Do I just let her do everything and let the house go because I should be more alpha? Would this not be insensitive of me because of her condition? Yes I can be a total **** I guess if that would attract her more to me. What do you guys think ?


----------



## Thundarr

Thundarr said:


> If I had to find a villian it would be the evil twins (uncool and his wife). They have sabotaged themselves and continues to. Children absorb these negative dynamics and have to overcome them throughout life. uncool could have been a stronger husband and his wife didn't have to hang onto this for so long.





Thundarr said:


> Beta, passive aggressive, nice guy? Who knows? We (Mk, Blonde, jane, you, me, Falcon, Ele, etc) have all bounced around trying to figure out OP. It's obvious he's playing some role along with his wife. Just hard to figure out the dynamic. It's pretty easy to see some things his wife is doing that a partner is not supposed to accept though.





turnera said:


> No, the problem IS that you're nice to her. you DO suck (no offense) as a good husband. You're a Giver, and you married a Taker, and you're too ... whatever ... to get off your butt and learn to change yourself. Good husbands don't become doormats and givegivegivegive and then just wait and hope they get something. They SAY what they want, they give consequences if they're getting walked on, they STOP giving if it's not reciprocated. Instead, you just keep giving more and more and more, thinking that what you are doing just needs to be done more - instead of EDUCATING yourself on why what you're doing isn't working.
> 
> I know it's been said before, but in case you missed it: Women have to respect their men. Women _despise_ weak men and refuse to do anything for them. It's biological, caveman days, and if you can't stand up for yourself, if you can't respect yourself, why should she?


Tunera, you plainly state the conclusion I've came to eventually. This is classic and it can't be fixed with nice. Nice guy is the definition.


----------



## Prodigal

uncool said:


> Do I just let her do everything and let the house go because I should be more alpha? Would this not be insensitive of me because of her condition? Yes I can be a total **** I guess if that would attract her more to me. What do you guys think ?


JMO, but I think you should contact local cleaning companies in your area and hire a team to clean your house every week or two weeks. If she b!tches about that, she can blame it on the cleaning service rather than you. (I'm assuming you can afford it.)


----------



## turnera

uncool said:


> This is a tough line to walk for me. She tells me the house is a mess most of the time because of her lack of energy with her hashimoto's disease. Do I just let her do everything and let the house go because I should be more alpha?


You Nice Guys think that the only other way to be is to be an *******. Why is that? 

What you do is communicate. If she won't, that's her problem. You bring home a posterboard and a marker, and you sit down with her and you write out everything that has to get done around the house. You tell her you can't work full time AND do all the housework AND be good to her; something's gotta give. So here are all the things that have to be done around the house, which ones will she be responsible for? Let her choose first. Do NOT take on 80% of the chores. If she's that sick (and it doesn't sound like it, at least not 90% of the time), then get some outside help. If she is NOT that sick, her becoming responsible for the house again will raise your value in her eyes.


----------



## LFlower

Without knowing both sides of the story it's easy to judge, so all I will say is that I think it's absolutely healthy to cut people out of your life that do nothing for you. If your mother was hurtful to your wife, apology or not, perhaps your wife has decided that she does not want or need toxic people around her. I am glad she encourages you to see your mother, maybe that is the best she can do. The other things you speak of make me feel like you need to do some deep soul searching. The problem here I feel isn't really the mother/wife thing, it's something else. This is merely a topic. Sounds like your marriage is a **** storm (sorry to be rude).


----------



## FalconKing

turnera said:


> No, the problem IS that you're nice to her. you DO suck (no offense) as a good husband. You're a Giver, and you married a Taker, and you're too ... whatever ... to get off your butt and learn to change yourself. Good husbands don't become doormats and givegivegivegive and then just wait and hope they get something. They SAY what they want, they give consequences if they're getting walked on, they STOP giving if it's not reciprocated. Instead, you just keep giving more and more and more, thinking that what you are doing just needs to be done more - instead of EDUCATING yourself on why what you're doing isn't working.
> 
> I know it's been said before, but in case you missed it: Women have to respect their men. Women _despise_ weak men and refuse to do anything for them. It's biological, caveman days, and if you can't stand up for yourself, if you can't respect yourself, why should she?


I completely disagree with this. You have already admitted that for years you catered to your wife and that didn't make things better. So then you moved beyond that and started to make your own needs known WHILE making an effort to meet her needs. That didn't work either. So people telling you are being nice or a doormat is irrelevant because you have already gotten into the mode of taking action. Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to believe you have approached this from multiple ways and your wife just didn't do her part. You know what I think? I think sometimes when you do things for the sake of the marriage or for the one you love, that person will appreciate that and in turn will make an effort to do the same for you. But some people don't want to do that. Somewhere along the way they feel their needs come first. Which is not a bad thing. But when they feel their needs come at the sacrifice of yours then that is the problem. And often people that do this loss a capacity to acknowledge their SO needs and only see you as a tool. When you make an effort to work on your flaws or shortcomings...while others would appreciate this, they hate this. They hate that you need attention, they hate that it's harder to find things about you they don't like. Because they don't want the effort of trying to give to you. Maybe to somebody else. But not you.
I dont think you are a weak man. I think you were trying to be loving and understanding and know that you must be willing to give to get. Nice guy is subjective. Maybe in the course of the marriage your wife became really bitter and selfish and doesn't know what she wants and doesn't want you to fix it. At one point you and her had a great relationship. Do you really think you being nice to her ruined it? Only if she is selfish and manipulative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Being nice to THAT extreme is detrimental to BOTH of them.


----------



## FalconKing

LFlower said:


> Without knowing both sides of the story it's easy to judge, so all I will say is that I think it's absolutely healthy to cut people out of your life that do nothing for you. If your mother was hurtful to your wife, apology or not, perhaps your wife has decided that she does not want or need toxic people around her. I am glad she encourages you to see your mother, maybe that is the best she can do. The other things you speak of make me feel like you need to do some deep soul searching. The problem here I feel isn't really the mother/wife thing, it's something else. This is merely a topic. Sounds like your marriage is a **** storm (sorry to be rude).


I see where you are coming from but since his mother raised him and has been a big part of his life, his wife cutting her out of her life is not healthy at all. You know what's healthy? Having a heart to heart and trying to reconcile. And he did say that his mother has tried to apologize to his wife. I agree there are deeper issues though. Her encouraging him to be around his mother is not her being the bigger person. Her side of the family didn't even know what was going on with all of that. It sounds like you haven't read all of the post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> Do you really think you being nice to her ruined it? Only if she is selfish and manipulative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





turnera said:


> Being nice to THAT extreme is detrimental to BOTH of them.


I do think it can ruin it. Allowing yourself to be taken for granted and disrespected and not taking up for your self over time can easily make a person despise you and hate the site of you. Even someone who's capable of treating a partner with respect and admiration. That is a partner who doesn't take crap. (doesn't take crap means more then acting mad, it means letting someone go if they can't treat you right). This is not marriage issue. How many pandered spoiled enabled children hate their parents. A bunch.


----------



## FalconKing

Thundarr said:


> I do think it can ruin it. Allowing yourself to be taken for granted and disrespected and not taking up for your self over time can easily make a person despise you and hate the site of you. Even someone who's capable of treating a partner with respect and admiration. That is a partner who doesn't take crap. (doesn't take crap means more then acting mad, it means letting someone go if they can't treat you right). This is not marriage issue. How many pandered spoiled enabled children hate their parents. A bunch.


You are right. But i'm just assuming that people are real and just trying to avoid confrontation. I would rather encourage someone to be honest about how they feel then have them have no qualms about being argumentative with me. But I am assuming a lot I suppose. I'm assuming that everyone is looking for the same thing as a partner and probably i'm projecting what I deem as healthy in a relationship. So with that, and looking at this situation it makes my blood boil that someone tries to be understanding and accommodating to a person and their feelings and the person just doesn't reciprocate or respect that individual. My dad is very selfless and usually the one that diffuses my mother. But he is also a leader. I see all the things he does and he doesn't ask for appreciation. But if I imagine someone openly not appreciating his efforts I would see them as unreasonably selfish.


----------



## Prodigal

I've been reading this thread since its inception. uncool, this is about a whole lot more than your wife hating your mother, even though it started out as that. It is tragic that a child was abused. But I think something else would have been the catalyst for your wife to behave as she does if the abuse had not occurred.

I feel for you. I really do. But you are NOT being an alpha. Yes, you may be a work-in-progress, but I'm speaking as a woman. You sound like you want to make your wife happy. It's not working.

She needs to cut the crap. But you need to attack your marital problems from a different stance, because what you have been doing thus far isn't working.

I DO sympathize with your situation. But turnera was quite insightful in observing that Nice Guys think they have to turn into a douche bag in order to pull a 180. Not so. Just a suggestion ... perhaps you should take some of your issues over to The Men's Clubhouse. I've learned a lot about how men think and operate by reading what the guys on TAM have to say. And I respect their insights. Just a thought ...

I hope your marriage is salvageable. But I sincerely believe you have to change your M.O.


----------



## uncool

FalconKing said:


> I think sometimes when you do things for the sake of the marriage or for the one you love, that person will appreciate that and in turn will make an effort to do the same for you. Do you really think you being nice to her ruined it?


 I think this is true in other marriages besides my own. Yes being nice might have ruined it.



turnera said:


> Being nice to THAT extreme is detrimental to BOTH of them.


 I'm not as nice as you might think. I think you got my nice-ness from a post where I was merely accused of being a selfish a$$hole and not paying attention wifes needs... where I was defending myself. She's pretty good at keeping up on laundry whereas the rest of the house including the kitchen is always a mess. I probably do 30-40% of the housework which in my eyes is pretty good considering I run a company and work full time.



turnera said:


> You Nice Guys think that the only other way to be is to be an *******. Why is that?


 no I don't think that. I'm helping her by being mindful of her medical condition. When she doesn't feel well and there's a mountain of dirty dishes and no clean ones left or the garbage needs to be taken out or frost scraped off her car windows so she can get the kids to school... that's just called being a responsible husband in my eyes. So yes anything less would be considered a jerk in my eyes. I can be a jerk if I want.. ..don't get me wrong. So yes I agree there's a fine balance between being a jerk and an overly nice guy to where your wife looses attraction and respect for you. I just don't view myself as some sick extra gooey nice guy that is ruled around by his nazi wife. 



LFlower said:


> I think it's absolutely healthy to cut people out of your life that do nothing for you.


 hmm welcome to the forum with your very first post of advice.... have many friends? 


LFlower said:


> If your mother was hurtful to your wife, apology or not, perhaps your wife has decided that she does not want or need toxic people around her.


keep in mind my wife is hurtful to my mother ... not the other way around. And no my mother is not toxic 


LFlower said:


> Sounds like your marriage is a **** storm (sorry to be rude).


 Gee aren't you just a breath of fresh air...LOL !


Thundarr said:


> I do think it can ruin it. Allowing yourself to be taken for granted and disrespected and not taking up for your self over time can easily make a person despise you and hate the site of you.
> Even someone who's capable of treating a partner with respect and admiration. That is a partner who doesn't take crap. (doesn't take crap means more then acting mad, it means letting someone go if they can't treat you right).


true
yes this was me before I moved out. I was so deeply in love with her and so deeply hurt when I read in her diary that she wanted to be a single mother and that she planned on leaving me that it caused a deep hurt within. This was the lowest point in my life. It took some soul searching to finally come to the point where I decided to fall out of love with her was the only way. So I did. How could I be in love with somebody who treated me like a piece of crap. Ever since I moved out and back in... whenever I look at her now I think "I can be out of here tomorrow and find another woman if I have to"
Sadly you guys are right... I think she senses that in me and has been extra nice this past year.... just no form of affection or intimacy. I've bought a bunch of books and stuff and this is what I'm working on next.


----------



## FalconKing

uncool said:


> I think this is true in other marriages besides my own. Yes being nice might have ruined it.
> 
> I'm not as nice as you might think. I think you got my nice-ness from a post where I was merely accused of being a selfish a$$hole and not paying attention wifes needs... where I was defending myself. She's pretty good at keeping up on laundry whereas the rest of the house including the kitchen is always a mess. I probably do 30-40% of the housework which in my eyes is pretty good considering I run a company and work full time.
> 
> no I don't think that. I'm helping her by being mindful of her medical condition. When she doesn't feel well and there's a mountain of dirty dishes and no clean ones left or the garbage needs to be taken out or frost scraped off her car windows so she can get the kids to school... that's just called being a responsible husband in my eyes. So yes anything less would be considered a jerk in my eyes. I can be a jerk if I want.. ..don't get me wrong. So yes I agree there's a fine balance between being a jerk and an overly nice guy to where your wife looses attraction and respect for you. I just don't view myself as some sick extra gooey nice guy that is ruled around by his nazi wife.
> 
> hmm welcome to the forum with your very first post of advice.... have many friends?
> keep in mind my wife is hurtful to my mother ... not the other way around. And no my mother is not toxic  Gee aren't you just a breath of fresh air...LOL !
> 
> true
> yes this was me before I moved out. I was so deeply in love with her and so deeply hurt when I read in her diary that she wanted to be a single mother and that she planned on leaving me that it caused a deep hurt within. This was the lowest point in my life. It took some soul searching to finally come to the point where I decided to fall out of love with her was the only way. So I did. How could I be in love with somebody who treated me like a piece of crap. Ever since I moved out and back in... whenever I look at her now I think "I'm can be of here tomorrow and find another woman not blink an eye"
> Sadly you guys are right... I think she senses that in me and has been extra nice this past year.... just no form of affection or intimacy. I've bought a bunch of books and stuff and this is what I'm working on next.


See....I never got the idea in your post that you were the overly nice weak husband. Guys like that who post here wouldn't even have anything bad to say about their wives. They would talk about how perfect she is, and how they are inadequate and wonder why she doesn't love them. Every indicator you gave of being nice was in defense of people saying you weren't nice enough. And to be honest, to me all those things sound like a decent husband. You seem quite fair and reasonable to me. I just don't think your wife is interested in trying with you. Some people are saying you were selfish and didn't show your wife enough love. And some are saying you didn't have a strong enough backbone. You are getting polar opposite responses but i'm shooting for somewhere in the middle. Whatever the case may be you can't do this alone. And the fact still remains your wife is unwilling to do any kind of heavy lifting. I suggest you just keep reading your books and document your progress and post here for feedback.


----------



## Thundarr

FalconKing said:


> See....I never got the idea in your post that you were the overly nice weak husband. Guys like that who post here wouldn't even have anything bad to say about their wives. They would talk about how perfect she is, and how they are inadequate and wonder why she doesn't love them. Every indicator you gave of being nice was in defense of people saying you weren't nice enough. And to be honest, to me all those things sound like a decent husband. You seem quite fair and reasonable to me. I just don't think your wife is interested in trying with you. Some people are saying you were selfish and didn't show your wife enough love. And some are saying you didn't have a strong enough backbone. You are getting polar opposite responses but i'm shooting for somewhere in the middle. Whatever the case may be you can't do this alone. And the fact still remains your wife is unwilling to do any kind of heavy lifting. I suggest you just keep reading your books and document your progress and post here for feedback.


There was a lot to decipher but in the end though, a (non-nice) guy would have told us how he handled a problem with his wife and mother not getting along instead of asking us for advice. Clearly a fourteen year grudge has either a mother problem, a wife problem, or both, and uncool sets right in the middle of it. He should not only know which one is the problem (the wife in this case) but he should be telling us how he stood his ground and now things are better. Or maybe he'd be telling us how you can't change people but you can change yourself.

Fact is this fourteen year grudge is not called for. It wouldn't fly with me anyway and I'm not very nice. That's why I say he's been tolerating intolerable behavior for many years and his wife subconsciously knows what she's doing and she know he hasn't stepped up and forced resolution. It makes her have no respect.


----------



## turnera

When your wife is healthy, since YOU work and she doesn't, let HER do 90% of the housework. Hold her to it. When she's feeling bad, step in for a week and let her recuperate. Can you do that?


----------



## serenitycat

I am uncomfortable around my soon to be husbands family and would rather not go to their house also. They haven't really said anything to me and I have invited them to my house. They come once a year for christmas dinner to my house. They still have pictures up with him and his ex wife on the wall and I feel uncomfortable sitting under them. I feel that they don't accept me and in alot of ways I feel its my fiances fault. That he isn't supportive of me.


----------



## uncool

Thundarr said:


> Fact is this fourteen year grudge is not called for. It wouldn't fly with me anyway and I'm not very nice. That's why I say he's been tolerating intolerable behavior for many years and his wife subconsciously knows what she's doing and she know he hasn't stepped up and forced resolution. It makes her have no respect.


Actually you're right. I have be tolerating intolerable behavior.
My question is "HOW" (besides divorcing her) do I not put up with her treatment towards my mother?

Whereas if I divorced her because she's being mean to my mother... I'd have to ask myself if this wouldn't look like I'm choosing my mother over my wife. Then I'd be a mama's boy... which I am not. 

She knows very well I hate the way she treats my mom. She will not suddenly be nice to my mother again just because I want her to. She doesn't love me enough to do this for me.

The only way i know how to NOT tolerate this is to get ready for a big fat divorce. Keep in mind I'm trying to keep my little family together here. This is my main priority. I want to be able to still be with my kids and possibly have a wife that falls in love with me again. This is why I'm still in my marriage and on this forum. I've come here for advice because I'm at my wits end. The advice I like was to work on my marriage first to see if this would resolve the wife/mother issues. And also to be a bit more alpha. So this is the direction I'll go unless someone gives me good reasons otherwise.





.


----------



## turnera

Have you read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. yet? It's an awesome book, quick read, which really just logically shows you how to stop being a Nice Guy and instead be a regular guy who is nice but who also expects, and gets, respect.


----------



## Thundarr

uncool said:


> Actually you're right. I have be tolerating intolerable behavior.
> My question is "HOW" (besides divorcing her) do I not put up with her treatment towards my mother?
> 
> She knows very well I hate the way she treats my mom. She will not suddenly be nice to my mother again just because I want her to. She doesn't love *(change that to respect)* me enough to do this for me. The only way i know how to NOT tolerate this is to get ready for a big fat divorce. Keep in mind I'm trying to keep my little family together here.


You see the delima. Fear of divorce is what's got you to this stage because fear is normally a self fulfilling prophecy and it's a slow decay. Without that fear you would either be happily married with her respect or you would be divorced. It's a victor/spoils thing. My gut says your marriage is not salvagable at this point but what do I know.



uncool said:


> Whereas if I divorced her because she's being mean to my mother... I'd have to ask myself if this wouldn't look like I'm choosing my mother over my wife. Then I'd be a mama's boy... which I am not. This is why I'm still in my marriage and on this forum. This is a priority of mine. I've come here for advice because I'm at my wits end. The advice I like was to work on my marriage first to see if this would resolve the wife/mother issues. And also to be a bit more alpha. So this is the direction I'll go unless someone gives me good reasons otherwise.


Her being mean to your mother is a symptom and not the problem. If you follow advice you like about alpha and fixing your marriage then there is no wife/mother issue. It's my opinion that your wife being civil the your mother who you love is required purely out of respect to you and doesn't have anything to do with your mom so these issues are connected.


----------



## uncool

agreed on the respect issue. Now where to start


----------



## FalconKing1

I know this is an old post but I have the same issue and now the mother in law has joined in against my mum. My mum has does nothing wrong and loves my kids. This sort of problem erodes your relationship, our marriage is also not the best either, its easier not talking to her then arguing or having it out. If I say anything it is alway taken the worst possible way. If it was not for my baby and young daughter I would be out of there. Us blokes are in between a rock and a hard place when it comes to women. My advise to any guy who thinks about getting married to a woman with depression or other problems is to turn around and run a f-ing mile.


----------

