# No More Mr. Nice Guy - Do I talk it out with Wife?



## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Hi, first time poster, long time lurker...

Early 40's here been married 9 years and I am a "nice guy."
I just recently completed the book NMMNG.
Though I was aware of the book for a long time, never gave it the time or credence to fully listen/learn.

Of course having now "read it," there is NO doubt that it fits me to a "t."

Where early in the book I was feeling empowered and a bit comforted to have an "answer," now all the way through it I admit I feel lost and a bit overwhelmed (harder to admit, but I do feel a bit hopeless)

The real question here is at this point should I discuss with my wife what I have learned (or truly AM learning), or do I work on changing this behavior/mind set with the belief that WE as a couple will improve as I improve?


What brought this all on was a lack of sex/intimacy in our marriage but I now see that the "sex/intimacy issue" is a symptom of the LARGER issue, my flawed/skewed thinking.

Half of me says that by not "including my wife" in this, I am continuing down the "nice guy path" of trying to "fix everything myself" and as well that by NOT "including my wife" I am further trying to hide/dismiss my shortcomings, flaws and fear.

But the other half of me says "hey, your thinking is flawed and wrong."

So what is the "right" thing to do here?
Appreciate anyone's thoughts/opinions and as well if anyone has a personal "nice guy journey" and how they started it, would love to hear that too.

Thank you


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I recommend some IC.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Yeswecan said:


> I recommend some IC.


Thank you for the suggestion, it is something I have considered.
This, in effect, would be "sharing with my wife" I figure, as I would surely want to tell my wife that I would be starting IC...

Again, something I have considered but admittedly something I am NOT super keen on.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

PretzelLogic said:


> Hi, first time poster, long time lurker...
> 
> Early 40's here been married 9 years and I am a "nice guy."
> I just recently completed the book NMMNG.
> ...


NO! Change yourself without the need for her approval. Don't stop with this book there are so many that can help you. Just looking at my book shelf have you read?

The married mans sex life primer 
The mindful attraction plan
The way of the superior man 
Hold on to your nuts
she comes first
passionate marriage
Get anyone to do anything
Get inside her
Models
Being the strong man a woman wants
How to win friends and influence people 
The seven principles to making a marriage work
5 love languages
Hold me tight 
non violent communication 

Also how about the sticky in the mens section?

Keep working on you. Don't share your work, only share the new you. The one who is fine with or without her!

"I am continuing down the "nice guy path" of trying to "fix everything myself" and as well that by NOT "including my wife" I am further trying to hide/dismiss my shortcomings, flaws and fear."

Trying to fix everything yourself is fine. Just stop trying to fix her problems focus on your own exclusively. 

Putting on display your flaws, fears, and shortcomings in a sexless marriage is only going to compound the problem. This is all displays of low value from you at this point. Include some men in your life to help you not her! As a nice guy you need to focus on growing a pair, confidence, strength, not being influenced by her moods, not people pleasing, not displaying low value, and running the sex and romance departments. Keep up the good work! For your current wife or your next.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I have never read the book in question but based on what I heard of it, I'd assume that the advice the book would be: "never give the game away".


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

482 said:


> Putting on display your flaws, fears, and shortcomings in a sexless marriage is only going to compound the problem. This is all displays of low value from you at this point. Include some men in your life to help you not her! As a nice guy you need to focus on growing a pair, confidence, strength, not being influenced by her moods, not people pleasing, not displaying low value, and running the sex and romance departments. Keep up the good work! For your current wife or your next.


Thank you for the entire reply, but the above quoted part highlights why I was unsure about sharing this with my wife, so thank you for that. I know that I have made myself less-attractive through my actions/behaviors and while we still have a "good relationship" (with improvement needed) I, certainly, DO NOT want to slide further.

I have read some of the titles you listed, but looks as though I need to continue on with my "education" and improve me first-and-foremost. 

I am truly the "nice guy" right down to the lack of friends, so I am a bit alone in this which makes it feel that much "tougher."

Thank you again for the response, it is appreciated


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Yeah, no doubt you've already "shared" your concerns with your wife haven't you?
Asked, tried, begged, been passive aggressive, tried to do typical nice meals, bath runs etc etc... nothing

The goal of the book as others said is to do you. Truth is you might not get laid by this woman again, even if you did improve yourself with a complete 180 degree turn. Work on self, and work to get rid of those nice guy isms and maybe when she broaches the subject with you, you can have that frank talk where your lay everything out in the open and work together towards intimacy without resorting to game playing and leading the horse to water antics.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

toblerone said:


> I have never read the book in question but based on what I heard of it, I'd assume that the advice the book would be: "never give the game away".


Well I dont know that its so much a "game" as it is being honest with who you are and in particular being "honestly male" in your wants/needs/relationship.

Married Mans Sex Life Primer, felt more like a "game" than NMMNG, which I think is why it opened my eyes a bit more.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

PretzelLogic said:


> I am truly the "nice guy" right down to the lack of friends, so I am a bit alone in this which makes it feel that much "tougher."


You have the men here on TAM, you can message me anytime. You must have men in your family. Reconnect with your old male friends from school. I know it requires that you be vulnerable to them and that may hurt at first. This is who you should be vulnerable too though not your wife, not now. Find a hobby that will put you around other men. Shoot, race, play sports, hunt, etc. Do man ****! Focus on displays of high value, it works, hands down. 

Just be careful you are not inviting men into your life as a sounding board that are also "nice guys" you need initiated men that have already made this journey or never need to make it in the first place. 

Did you read "hold on to your nuts" and "the way of the superior man"? If not I would make them your next two reads.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

PretzelLogic said:


> Thank you for the suggestion, it is something I have considered.
> This, in effect, would be "sharing with my wife" I figure, as I would surely want to tell my wife that I would be starting IC...
> 
> Again, something I have considered but admittedly something I am NOT super keen on.


Share nothing. Look for ways to improve yourself. The new you. Learning to say "no".


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Thank you for all the responses, you all have perhaps "spared me," as I was pretty set on spilling my guts this evening, though I have been saying that for the last number of days.

I will plow forward and work on myself, without dumping it on my wife.
So much of it just feels like " holy crap, this is ALL my fault." Of course that is oversimplifying it and not to say that my wife is perfect and has no "hand" in our current situation.

Good thing is I have plenty to work on, so no worries there :smile2:

Thanks again, its good to at least talk some of this out, if only across the internet.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You don't need to be a gamer, you need to be the best you. 

Be A Better Man, Be A Better Partner

8 Tools That Will Change Your Life

Hold on to Your NUTs: The Relationship Manual for Men 

Boundaries in Marriage -- or -- Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life


Welcome, @PretzelLogic

Talk to us anytime. Use the men's section too.



Best


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

PretzelLogic said:


> Well I dont know that its so much a "game" as it is being honest with who you are and in particular being "honestly male" in your wants/needs/relationship.
> 
> Married Mans Sex Life Primer, felt more like a "game" than NMMNG, which I think is why it opened my eyes a bit more.


game works. Basically your MAP in MMSLP is how you up attraction. Take what you think will make you better, ignore the rest. DO NOT LET YOUR WIFE KNOW YOU ARE DOING THIS. It is a huge knock in her view of you.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Actually, one of the things I believe that Glover suggests is that you DO share it with your wife or SO. He also says that the results may not be what you had hoped for, but even that is for the best.
But having said that, regardless of whether you share it or not, the sole purpose for following his guide is to allow you to focus on you. In doing so you may discover that the woman you married is not the right person for what you want out of life. Or she may discover that what you want out of life is not something she can abide with. Either way, you need to focus on you and not on the relationship.
So would I share it with my wife? Yep, and then it would be up to her to accept it or not. I think in part, my own divorce was caused by me not recognizing how much a nice guy I had become. I too fit the description to a T. I lived my life to make every one else happy at the expense of my own happiness. She lost all respect for me. I do not know if she might have gained some had I been more assertive or if she might have decided that at that time, a door mat was what she wanted and left earlier. It doesn't matter, because the past is the past.
Now, however, I am much more assertive and make clear my intentions and wants. If some woman is off put by that, it is cool. She has just self identified as some one I do not want or need in my life. There are no hard feelings, it just is what it is.
I think if you apply what you have read to your everyday life. You will see some ups (getting what you want, which is happiness) and possibly some downs (loosing the woman you thought you loved). Needless to say complete recovery takes awhile and will not happen over night. You have a life time of thought habit to overcome. Which is something I tend to suffer from every so often. But if you persevere you will overcome it and have a better life.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

PretzelLogic said:


> Thank you for all the responses, you all have perhaps "spared me," as I was pretty set on spilling my guts this evening, though I have been saying that for the last number of days.
> 
> I will plow forward and work on myself, without dumping it on my wife.
> So much of it just feels like " holy crap, this is ALL my fault." Of course that is oversimplifying it and not to say that my wife is perfect and has no "hand" in our current situation.
> ...


I have a different view. I don't think you fix marital relationship problems by yourself. Sure you might bag her a few extra times but some of these "manosphere" books are just smoke and mirrors. When the game wears out you'll be even more frustrated having put in such tremendous efforts and STILL not getting the sex and intimacy you are seeking in your relationships.

More often than not...this type of independent studying leads a man to become even more frustrated AND more interested in trying out his new found seduction skills on other women. These books move men away from their wives and achieve the opposite of intended results. 

Consider that Dr. Glover specifically wrote NMMNG over the 6 years that he cheated on his 1st wife, got caught, tried to reconcile with her, continued the affair and then ultimately divorced her and married his coworker affair partner {even dedicating the book to her and her children} is a pretty good indication that it's all just wayward rationalizations and justifications bullcrap about why it wasn't his fault he'd violated his vows and abandoned responsibilities. See, he was a 'nice guy' jerk then, but now he's not and he's going to tell you how he got to this point. Problem is, shortly thereafter, he divorced his second wife to move on to more and more other women. You see the meat market is pretty endless for 50-60 year old bald and ugly single DOCTORS so it's not so much that he suddenly found 'game' - wealthy doctors just tend to be able to do better at that age then when they were 20-25 year old book nerds. 


Turning to a bunch of {dorkster} men and manosphrere books isn't going to help you get more sex from your wife when your wife is actually one of the top two most important persons in that decision tree.

Here's something I'd suggest: 
How Can a Husband Achieve the Sex He Needs In Marriage?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Ynot said:


> the sole purpose for following his guide is to allow you to focus on you. In doing so you may discover that the woman you married is not the right person for what you want out of life. Or she may discover that what you want out of life is not something she can abide with. Either way, you need to focus on you and not on the relationship.


Precisely....this is NOT a marriage book. This guide is about YOU and not the relationship, whereas sex occurs between TWO people and is about both of you ---- in a relationship.


Intimacy and compatibility are fluid and can either be created or destroyed. 

Here's a one page summary of NMMNG that was written long before Dr. Glover's female colleague was a twinkle in his eye. Only this concept applies to both women and men.

The Giver and the Taker


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Quality said:


> I have a different view. I don't think you fix marital relationship problems by yourself. Sure you might bag her a few extra times but some of these "manosphere" books are just smoke and mirrors. When the game wears out you'll be even more frustrated having put in such tremendous efforts and STILL not getting the sex and intimacy you are seeking in your relationships.
> 
> More often than not...this type of independent studying leads a man to become even more frustrated AND more interested in trying out his new found seduction skills on other women. These books move men away from their wives and achieve the opposite of intended results.
> 
> ...


NMMNG isn't about "seduction skills". And fixing marital problems is the least of this guys worries. He needs to save himself before he can even worry about a marriage or any relationship for that matter. Marriage builders is a very pro-marriage site, as if marriage is the holy grail of life. Sometimes marriages are toxic and sometimes the people in it are toxic as well.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Quality said:


> Precisely....this is NOT a marriage book. This guide is about YOU and not the relationship, whereas sex occurs between TWO people and is about both of you ---- in a relationship.
> 
> 
> Intimacy and compatibility are fluid and can either be created or destroyed.
> ...


You are correct it is NOT a marriage book. It is a book about the individual. It is two individuals who make up a marriage and if one or both is broken they need to be fixed first before any thought can be put into fixing a relationship. The relationship may not survive if one or both of the individuals in it change. Which is why we shouldn't even be discussing the marriage. So rather than focusing on the marriage, perhaps you should focus on the individual who is currently not happy in his (the OP) and has discovered his own issues.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

PretzelLogic said:


> .....Early 40's here been married 9 years and I am a "nice guy."
> I just recently completed the book NMMNG.
> 
> .....The real question here is at this point *should I discuss with my wife what I have learned* (or truly AM learning), or do I work on changing this behavior/mind set with the belief that WE as a couple will improve as I improve?
> ...


As a former Nice Guy in a sex starved marriage I want to congratulate you on seeing the light.

My advice is SORT OF.

NMMNG is about understanding your own co-dependence on your wife and your need for her validation. It is about stopping all those covert contract things you have probably been doing and becoming an independent strong and integrated man.......the kind that women find absolutely fascinating. 

So telling your wife that you have had a revelation about yourself and your personality and are going to be working on making some changes to your life is an important step. If she asks, I would tell her it is about you and changing yourself it is not about trying to change her. 

Tell her that you want to become a stronger more integrated person. that you have looked at your life and that you want to be more than you are. Tell her that you have missed doing some things you use to do when you were younger. I told my wife that when I got married I gave up mountain climbing, running and some other things that I use to do with male friends. She remembered when I had done things like that prior to our getting married. I told her that I valued her and our time together, but that I needed to physical challenge of hard activities. I also said that I intended to hit the gym much more as getting back in shape was important to not hurting myself when I got back into these activities.

I told her that I valued her and was also intending on spending more quality time with her in addition to some quality time with myself and old friends.


I would not tell her this is a revelation after reading the book NMMNG. Most women and many men assume that the book is all about becoming a "Jerk" as opposed to becoming an independent strong integrated man.

Good luck. There are some other great book suggestions. I would echo two. Chapman's 5 Languages of Love, M.W. Davis, the Sex Starved Marriage (really a companion book of sorts for NMMNG), and I would avoid the Red Pill book on uping your sex status so as to make your wife compete for your affection.

Yes, with luck, hard work and a lot of change and confidence in myself (and the help of a great sex therapist marriage counselor) my wife and I rebuilt our marriage.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Ynot said:


> NMMNG isn't about "seduction skills". And fixing marital problems is the least of this guys worries. He needs to save himself before he can even worry about a marriage or any relationship for that matter. Marriage builders is a very pro-marriage site, as if marriage is the holy grail of life. Sometimes marriages are toxic and sometimes the people in it are toxic as well.


You mean toxic people like Dr. Glover and most of the men that I've ever met that read this crap and take it to heart.

Pretzel has FIVE posts - how the heck did you figure out "fixing his marital problems is the least of this guys worries" from anything he's said before. 

I had plenty of sad and horrible sex with way too many women prior to marriage and I'm ashamed of that today. Most married men that are trying to fix their sex lives with their wives want more and BETTER sex. It's not a matter of poking her a few more times and SURE taking a more manly role in your marriage and asserting your "taker" a bit more will might be helpful but ultimately sex in marriage is fixed by both the husband and wife working together to accomplish a more frequent and QUALITY sex life.

I've been doing this in real life a lot longer than I've been helping online and I've never met a man say that NMMNG saved their marriage or helped him actually achieve more sex from his long term wife but these and other forums are covered up with divorced guys convinced they got divorced because they were just awful nice guys that need to now be selfish jerks {because all the Geordie Shore birds really dig the jerks}. 

Again...you can't fix a relationship problem focusing on yourself ---- less ME, ME, ME and more US, US, US.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Quality said:


> You mean toxic people like Dr. Glover and most of the men that I've ever met that read this crap and take it to heart.
> 
> Pretzel has FIVE posts - how the heck did you figure out "fixing his marital problems is the least of this guys worries" from anything he's said before.
> 
> ...


Dude, you should read the OP instead of robotically spouting off about Dr Harley. Here is what the OP stated "What brought this all on was a lack of sex/intimacy in our marriage but I now see that the "sex/intimacy issue" is a symptom of the LARGER issue, *my* flawed/skewed thinking." In other words when he took the time to think about it, instead of just reacting as you have done, he realized there was a more fundamental issue than simply not getting enough sex. He actually took the time to consider that HE might have a problem and proactively made the effort to fix HIS issues.
And again, to repeat myself, it takes two INDIVIDUALS to make a relationship work. Applying any of Dr Harley's band aids to a relationship made up of one or more broken individuals is simply a recipe for more misery. 
Maybe it worked for you, but it won't, can't and doesn't work for every one regardless of how much you wish it would.
Also if you bothered to read the book instead of just repeating things you have been told about it. The book is not about becoming a "selfish jerk" but about becoming an integrated aka whole man.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

PretzelLogic said:


> Where early in the book I was feeling empowered and a bit comforted to have an "answer," now all the way through it I admit I feel lost and a bit overwhelmed (harder to admit, but I do feel a bit hopeless)


The reason this occurred is Dr. Glover was able to identify a big problem in his marriage. He was a big jerk. But as he continues the book he gets short on answers because, in real life, he just doubled down on being an even bigger jerk and compounding the mistakes of his life by abandoning his God-given wife and trying to find his masculinity in the arms of a series of loose women willing to sleep with married men.

The book contains no research. It's just his opinions and, in the end, utilizing his ideas most men become bigger jerks just like Glover.

Read all the manosphere books you want but don't try to use the information to get more sex from your wife. Muster any strength, assertiveness and resolve gleaned from such books to, in as manly a way as possible, request and ultimately demand, communicating you're UNsatisfied with your relationship and you are willing to work on it with her or the cage door is open and she's free to leave. Then your wife and you work a marital recovery plan like marriage builders or maybe even a weekend marriage retreat with Focus on the Family to build intimacy and, reciprocally, learn how to meet each other's emotional needs.


I always presume that when one spouse isn't happy in the marriage, neither is the other one. Without explanation pulling away from being that husband that was nice 95% of the time and passive aggressive and grumpy the other 5% of the time isn't going to be anything other than annoying to your wife, which, of course, will further convince you {and probably her} it's just not working out.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PRetzel, just in case you haven't figured it out, Quality does not believe there is such a thing as a Nice Guy. Despite you saying you see a lot of yourself in the book, he is going to try to convince you the book is worthless.

Doc Glover actually says in the book to discuss it with your wife. However I do not know a single man who has done so and had positive results. I think it frequently comes across as seeking approval, which makes you look like a little boy asking mom for a pat on the head. Or, she assumes the book is all about being a "jerk".

Don't tell your wife about the book.

However, do talk to her about things which affect her. For example, if you are unhappy with your sex life you should discuss that with her. It would be the honest thing to do. And it would be fine for you to tell her you realize that you have had an unhealthy attitude about sex if that is true. Or you could tell her that you realize you haven't approached conflicts in a productive way because you can be passive aggressive. Or whatever it is you realize has been unhealthy in your attitudes or behavior.

IC can be very helpful. However, you should find a therapist who doesn't fit the stereotypical modern feminized millenial male. Being masculine is not always supported in modern society, so choose your IC carefully. I would call and ask a few questions, including if they are familiar with the book.

If you do go for IC, you should tell your wife but she is not your therapist. You should be somewhat vague about what you're covering. "I'm working on having better boundaries", "I'm working on dealing with conflicts with less anxiety". Chances are she is going to worry about what you're discussing, thinking it might be about her. You can limit her questions with "It's stuff about me, nothing for you to worry about. It will all be good".

Another superb book for the Nice Guy is "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty". It is far more than the title suggests. It dovetails with NMMNG several ways. First it gives you some verbal tools you are likely lacking. Second and more important is it models Integrated thought processes and interactions. Just read it!


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Do you actually *want* to improve your sex life with your wife? People could make the assumption that you are reading that book in order to do so, but are you really? Is this something you are still working on figuring out?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I'm another man who really saw a lot of myself in the book, and found it very helpful.
(And I have met up with other men who used it and found it helpful). 
I recommend you to actually *do the exercises* in the book - not just read it. 
You can tell your wife about the book if you want, but the danger is that you then communicate to her that the problem is all you, which is not a helpful place to start. You will have to judge whether she is a person who will use that idea against you.

The book cautions against the danger, which several have mentioned, of wrongly supposing that the cure for trying to maintain a mask of "nice", is to become a jerk. The cure really is to become more open about who you really are. Less shame-filled and more authentic. 

If I have a criticism of Glover and his book, it is that he has taken some concepts from mainstream psychology, and re-branded them specifically to apply to men. In fact the same "people pleasing" or "shame" or "overfunctioning" behaviours apply equally to women (of course), and are pretty standard, not some big new idea. But the book is aimed at men, so it does appeal unfortunately to men who want to blame women/feminism for their problems. I would caution against that. Sometimes when men discover the book, they can become bitter about all that time spent doing what they thought was a good thing, being "nice", or really, pretending to be nice. 

If you can find a therapist or counsellor who knows the book, so much the better, but otherwise you can talk to them about shame and inauthenticity and people-pleasing, and they will certainly be familiar with those concepts.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Woman here. I escaped a 20 year sexual deadsville marriage about 7 years ago. I am with a “man’s man” who fits all the criteria here, bar none.

Trust me when I say: LISTEN TO THE ADVICE YOU ARE GETTING HERE.

The only way out of this rat maze is to man up, grow a pair, and don’t be spineless and wimpy. The fastest way to drive a woman off is to be emotionally needy, clingy, a super male orbiter. No flowers, no baths, no dinners, no begging, no housecleaning and tackling chores - WAY too late for that.

As others have pointed out, it may be too late for this relationship, but you’ll be a dynamo in the next one. Be your own best friend. Do it for YOU.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I don't imagine there are many women who, upon hearing the name of that book, would imagine following its precepts is going to be a good thing for a relationship.

Plus, part of your problem may be that you make decisions based on your wife's opinions more than you do on your own. So to overcome that, the first thing you want to do is ask your wife about the method you have chosen to do it?

Place value on your opinions.
Develop and express confidence in your abilities.
Bring your needs/wants up to equal importance with your wife's needs/wants and balance them instead of neglecting yourself.
Learn the difference between being 'nice and being 'kind.' (Nice expects reciprocity in some form. Kind is because it is the right thing to do.)

I like that Giver/Taker dichotomy linked above, though I only read the first page. But I think it's more than one person being the Giver for so long that the Taker gets fed up and takes charge. I think if you are a Giver too much, you train your spouse to be a Taker. While you might eventually realize you are too much Giver for balance in the marriage, you can't just become Taker for a while and expect everything to work out. Your spouse won't be able to automatically react with Giver behaviour in return - you'd end up with two Takers hating each other.

So I think change has to be done in small ways, rather than drastically. Give your wife time to get used to one facet of the new 'you' before introducing another one.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't imagine there are many women who, upon hearing the name of that book, would imagine following its precepts is going to be a good thing for a relationship.


That;s exactly the problem. Those who *only read the title* of the book, imagine it must tell men to become jerks. This is not a good message for a wife to receive. Better to tell her you are working on having better boundaries, or being less passive aggressive, for example, if those are the aspects of the book that chimed with you.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I don't imagine there are many women who, upon hearing the name of that book, would imagine following its precepts is going to be a good thing for a relationship.


I’ve read the book. I liked it. The title is a bit misleading (caution - don’t judge a book by its cover).

I’ve also been on the receiving end of a “Nice Guy.” I can tell you that it absolutely sucks.

Read the book(s).


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Thor said:


> Quality does not believe there is such a thing as a Nice Guy.


I don't believe in "Nice Guy SYNDROME" like it's some sort of psychological ailment. It's just people trying to do their best and going about getting things they'd like the wrong way sometimes. 

Likewise, I wouldn't believe in "Unappreciative or Unreciprocating Wife SYNDROME" some woman are just more in touch with their takers and better negotiators. 
.


The poster above mentioned that 'nice guys' train their wives to be takers. I think people born and then socialized to be a little higher or lower on the taker and/or giver side. Just about everyone has both. the spouse with the higher taker is always going to be the spouse that is harder to convince to work on the marriage. To them it means "GIVING" in. So while training yourself on your own and making changes to increase your own taker behaviors and becoming more assertive with your taker might make you more attractive to a NEW relationsihp were you single {or about to be single}, it doesn't work on your current wife who is perfectly comfortable continuing to take and take and take from the "nice guy" she married. Unless there is a "buy in" and benefit for her {other than other woman finding you more assertive, attractive and masculine}, she's unlikely to appreciate it, believe it or whatever. She'll cut through the act in two second flat. 

And before you say the key is for it not to be "an act" - new behaviors and habits take time and practice and it would be inappropriate to practice them on other woman and hanging out more with other men surely isn't the key to improving your already struggling marriage. Marriage builders is just one program that's convenient and available on the internet but nearly every medium to large church in every city in the world is running marriage small groups, marriage conferences and marriage workshops. Just get involved in those types of marital activities and be together MORE, not less, and see what happens. 

Nobody dates, falls in love and gets married by spending less time together and handing out with their guy|girlfriends. Looking to improve your marriage???? DATE YOUR WIFE AGAIN. If she won't date you, then keep trying for a couple months and if she refuses to work on the marriage then separate until she does agree to make your marriage great with you or she divorces you.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

The previous poster is so wrong on so many levels. They refuse to understand the other men and women who have posted about Nice Guy syndrome. It is real, it is a fact. It is no more quackery than the Dr Harley's ideas. Some things work for some people and some things don't. What works for one, does not work for all. I only wish the previous poster could grasp this concept instead of rebleating his Marriage Busters crap ad infinitum.
OP listen to what the majority have advised you on this thread. You may not like it in the short term. But in the long term it sure as heck beats the living the rest of your life unhappy


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Quality said:


> I don't believe in "Nice Guy SYNDROME" like it's some sort of psychological ailment.


I'm not a psychiatrist or doctor, so I don't know whether this use of the word syndrome is appropriate, but I am happy to agree that the ... thing ... pattern of behaviour ... that the book describes, is not a mental illness or psychological ailment. 



> It's just people trying to do their best and going about getting things they'd like the wrong way sometimes.


Yes, exactly. That's what the book describes. The so called "nice guys" who do it, think they are doing the right thing. 



> the spouse with the higher taker is always going to be the spouse that is harder to convince to work on the marriage. To them it means "GIVING" in. So while training yourself on your own and making changes to increase your own taker behaviors and becoming more assertive with your taker might make you more attractive to a NEW relationsihp were you single {or about to be single}, it doesn't work on your current wife who is perfectly comfortable continuing to take and take and take from the "nice guy" she married. Unless there is a "buy in" and benefit for her {other than other woman finding you more assertive, attractive and masculine}, she's unlikely to appreciate it, believe it or whatever. She'll cut through the act in two second flat.


In my experience, that's sometimes the case, but far from always - and you don't mention any *other* way of dealing with a wife who's an excessive "taker" - what I'd call selfish. If you _are_ dealing with one of those, then "date your wife" is not going to fix it either. Seriously, what do you believe works with a wife who you describe as happy to "take and take and take" ? The NG book says cut down on doing it, and set some boundaries. What do you recommend?

But in many, perhaps most, cases, wives of nice guys are *not* enjoying the "niceness" at all, and are pleased and welcoming when it diminishes. When I tell a "nice guy" in the consulting room, in front of his wife, to stop some of those behaviours, she typically shouts "yes! yes!" because she finds them annoying.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Wow... Thank you all for the further responses, to address a few...

I appreciate and don't mind opposing views to Glover and NMMNG and in fact I did find it a bit of an eye-opener to read about Glover's "personal life." It doesn't change the fact that I saw myself in "much of" NMMNG, but it does serve as a reminder that it is a "book written by another fallible human" and perhaps not even a "good person." Which ultimately does not make them wrong, but a caution to myself to not just assume THIS is the one true answer.

Some one previously asked what I really "want" from my marriage and this book...
Well, yes, I DO want better intimacy and sex, but with that I really just want to feel honest and free to be "me."

The lack of intimacy/sex has been a ~5-year issue, with it really coming down to the last-year-and-a-half being sexless. And to that, YES I have discussed this with my wife, though last time was roughly 6-months ago and I DID NOT clearly communicate my position/feelings in that moment. Ultimately, we reaffirmed our love and commitment to each other but did nothing to progress our situation and its been a stalemate since then.

My wife has her issues, no doubt. But her issues have always been there, have been known and made clear. I on the other hand have always played the "together guy" role and not admitted (or even recognized) my "issues."

I recognize that the "power is significantly more in my hands" to improve the situation.
But that ol' demon "fear" still holds me back....
I fear that she no longer wants to be intimate with me.
I fear that she has lost significant attraction and respect for me. (even now I had to type in "significant" rather than say "complete")

This inst a marriage that's been riddled with infidelity, but rather one that has eroded from where we once were.
There is undoubtedly love between my wife and I, but we are BOTH holding back our "feelings" and BOTH are "assuming" what the other is "thinking/feeling" and we BOTH are assuming "negatively" here, rather than just be open and let the other say what they need to.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

PretzelLogic said:


> Wow... Thank you all for the further responses, to address a few...
> 
> I appreciate and don't mind opposing views to Glover and NMMNG and in fact I did find it a bit of an eye-opener to read about Glover's "personal life." It doesn't change the fact that I saw myself in "much of" NMMNG, but it does serve as a reminder that it is a "book written by another fallible human" and perhaps not even a "good person." Which ultimately does not make them wrong, but a caution to myself to not just assume THIS is the one true answer.
> 
> ...


PretzelLogic, I hear you. You have taken a great first step, one that I sincerely wish I had taken before things really spun apart in my marriage. I was unaware of my own issues. Looking back she had issues of her own, which like you, I tried to cover up by trying harder. As I have said, had I been aware sooner, I would have been more assertive of my needs instead of allowing them to rot into resentment.

It takes two healthy people to make a relationship work. It doesn't matter if you date her again, or romance her or follow some program to save your marriage. If one of you is broken, the relationship can never be healthy. Therefore you must fix you first and then worry about the marriage.

You are to be congratulated for recognizing your part in the situation you find your self in.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PretzelLogic said:


> I appreciate and don't mind opposing views to Glover and NMMNG and in fact I did find it a bit of an eye-opener to read about Glover's "personal life." It doesn't change the fact that I saw myself in "much of" NMMNG, but it does serve as a reminder that it is a "book written by another fallible human" and perhaps not even a "good person." Which ultimately does not make them wrong, but a caution to myself to not just assume THIS is the one true answer..


There is no single book which is "it". I saw a lot of things in NMMNG which applied to me, but some which didn't. Another oft mentioned book is "The Way of the Superior Man". About 10% of that book seemed relevant to me. Take what makes sense from a source, and ignore the stuff which doesn't.

While Nice Guy is not a DSM-5 specified disorder, the DSM contains disorders which licensed psychologists think should not be in there. Homosexuality used to be considered a diagnosable mental illness. I don't think anybody has claimed NGS is a chemical medical disorder, or that it should be a diagnosable mental illness. NGS is a constellation of behaviors and belief systems, and Dr. Glover has identified how they can cluster and cause dysfunction in our lives.

If we're going to dig into the personal lives of everybody and use that to reject their professional work, we likely wouldn't have any recognized experts! My xw is a licensed clinical psychologist, so I have been around a lot of psych professionals for decades. They are imo more messed up than the average person!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Nice Guys tend to pair up with dysfunctional women. While you are right to look at yourself, don't give your W a free pass. Her failure to respond to your talk about sexlessness speaks to some measure of dysfunction within her.

Do you know if she has any history of child sex abuse, sex assault after puberty, or other traumas as she was growing up?


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Thor said:


> Nice Guys tend to pair up with dysfunctional women. While you are right to look at yourself, don't give your W a free pass. Her failure to respond to your talk about sexlessness speaks to some measure of dysfunction within her.
> 
> Do you know if she has any history of child sex abuse, sex assault after puberty, or other traumas as she was growing up?


She comes from a dysfunctional home life/childhood occupied by absentee/alcoholic parents. She left home as soon as possible.
There has been sexual assault in her life, which she has/had openly discussed with me.
My wife IS Bi-polar, diagnosed long before we got together and made abundantly clear to me very early on. She owns this and has ALWAYS (aside form pregnancy) stuck to her meds.
I grew up with a bi-polar mother (or rather manic-depressive back then), so this isn't something new to me and nothing I have ever faulted or blamed my wife for, but again does play into my "nice guy/caretaker" role.
As well, I DO tend to take things (actions/words/etc) personally, especially from her. Which I believe is now more of the feeling of "lack of approval" which makes me feel "unloved, undesired" and the classic feeling of always being "reset to zero," with her.

One more key component here that precipitated the sexless state we are at now was ED.
Which ultimately has left my wife feeling "humiliated" and undesired by me.... which of course is so FAR beyond the truth.
I have spent the last 2-years working on this (the marriage, the sex, the ED) unfortunately I have done this on my own and much of that time has been miss spent.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

I can positively say that reading No More Mr. Nice guy, Hold on to your NUTS, Rational Male, and The married mans sex life primer ALL improved my married life and my sex life.
*
I went from physical intimacy 1-3 a month to 1-3 a week now. * Now... I have the benefit that I was already healthy and attractive, so i mostly had to do internal/communication adjustments. 

*I DID NOT tell her the books i read, or what i learned.* I just slowly incorporated behaviors and discipline in my life. 

She has asked me multiple times "what has happened to me" and my response has been "Ive had a eye opening experience and some books have helped me... I have a new perspective on things now... You will enjoy it." The one time she tried to pry some more i just said "im still trying to figure it all out, ill tell you when I can put it to words"

I did confess my problems with porn/masturbation as one of the long-standing issues with our sexual intimacy... My desire and initiation was low because i was on a constant porn/masturbation cycle.


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## TheOriginalAlphaOmega (Nov 16, 2017)

Don't share this with your wife. I read this book and it helped me greatly also. Subconsciously, you want to tell your wife for her "approval". To let her know that you are awesome for changing yourself. 

If you read into the true meaning of the book, it's all about being the "best you" that you can be. You know who you are. You can take rejection just as easily as approval; both slide off your back because you realize that other's opinions don't truly define you. You define you. If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you tonight, you are confident enough to not let that "covert" contract take over and then make you mad and passive aggressive. If your wife doesn't want to have sex with you for months and years, you are confident enough to know that the situation is not working out and you can determine what the next steps are, yourself.

Keep reading. Lots of great books. Look up Athol Kay on Youtube and watch his channel. Watch other videos about showing more "alpha qualities" and being more confident in yourself. 

Also get a hobby. Something you loved in earlier years that you gave up for the "wife" or family as part of your covert contract of acceptance and to show you were that "nice guy". Or take up a new one picked from your "bucket list"

Also, go lift weights or some other physical exercise. It's in a man's nature for picking up heavy sh!t, then putting it back down. Don't get obsessed with being "large". Be obsessed with being the best you. Weights are, by nature, a long game. But you'll be surprised by your vigor and stamina and endurance after working out.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PretzelLogic said:


> She comes from a dysfunctional home life/childhood occupied by absentee/alcoholic parents. She left home as soon as possible.
> There has been sexual assault in her life, which she has/had openly discussed with me.
> My wife IS Bi-polar, diagnosed long before we got together and made abundantly clear to me very early on. She owns this and has ALWAYS (aside form pregnancy) stuck to her meds.
> I grew up with a bi-polar mother (or rather manic-depressive back then), so this isn't something new to me and nothing I have ever faulted or blamed my wife for, but again does play into my "nice guy/caretaker" role.
> ...


I am not surprised at any of that. Nice Guys do tend to pair up with women who come from some kind of abusive background.

Your W needs therapy. Her alcoholic parents and their absenteeism are big issues. There is something called "Adult Child of an Alcoholic Parent", which is similar to NGS. I have also seen _similarities_ in some areas with the effects of CSA, and NGs tend to pair up with CSA survivors quite frequently. It is a bit of a Perfect Storm when that happens.

Her sexual assault may or may not be a big issue for her. Many assault victims (and CSA victims) will minimize or hide what's really going on. Plus, it seems there is little correlation between the apparent severity of the events to how it can impact the victim. Things which seem pretty minor can deeply impact the victim, yet some victims of terrible events shake it off quite well. The point is that your W's assault could be a bigger issue to her than you are aware of.

Have you noticed her doing any avoidance of sex or physical affection? During sex does she turn her head away from you? Has she asked you not to do things which are quite normal and innocuous (like avoiding certain positions)? Does she need the lights off, or does she need a few drinks first? These can indicate she is having emotional distress with touch or sex. Your ED could in part be psychological if you are picking up on such cues. Tie that to a typical NG view of sex and it can be a real cause of sexual dysfunction.

All of those things plus her bipolar indicate to me she needs good qualified therapy. It is for her, just like NMMNG is for you. Unfortunately she is going to have to voluntarily seek out therapy. The most you can do is suggest it as something which she might find helps her feel happier. Absent really bad behavior on her part (affairs, rages, abusing the kids) you aren't in a position to make it a nuclear boundary that she goes or you divorce.

One strategy could be to seek marriage counseling. MCs will generally see each of you individually once in a while. This may be a pathway to the MC suggesting to your W she should seek IC. The MC cannot do both MC and IC, though they can see you individually for the purpose of working on the marriage. While a lot of people see MC as for emergency use, there is benefit to seeing an MC when there are problems but you're not on the brink of divorce. Your marriage has a lot of issues which a professional MC might be able to help you with.

You should see your doc and get a good hormone workup. Low testosterone can be a factor in ED. I recommend an endocrinologist who specializes in hormone treatments, not a regular family doc or urologist. Low T is a somewhat complex thing, unlike say hypothyrodism. It is worth reading a bit if you haven't.

You've obviously picked up a lot from reading NMMNG. Good work! I experienced significant improvements in my marriage and with my kids (they were middle and high school age when I read NMMNG). However, my W didn't change her ways, which eventually led to divorce. But I am very pleased with the changes I've made and am certain my relationships with my adult children are so good because of the book.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Thor has given you some great advice. And as he has stated your ED issues may be some subconscious response on your part triggered by her actions. 
My ex had a similar background as yours - negligent abusive mom, no dad. Sexual abuse (which she never really discussed with me though). I was the white knight who rode into save the damsel in distress. As our marriage evolved I came to "know" that women do not like sex and only did it to keep peace (this is what I was told and accepted). I often felt guilty after we had sex because I felt as though she only did it for me, even though I tried to make sure she was pleasured every time. It didn't help when every so often she would tell me "you can have five minutes". 
Once I got divorced I still had to fight off those limiting thoughts and suffered from some ED of my own. I have since come to realize than many women really like sex and enjoy it as much as they can. That was a real eye opener to me. Because I came to realize that I wasn't being selfish, I was only being human to desire intimacy, passion and sex in my relationship.
It was part of my continuing journey from Nice Guy to becoming an integrated male.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Thor said:


> I am not surprised at any of that. Nice Guys do tend to pair up with women who come from some kind of abusive background.
> 
> Your W needs therapy. Her alcoholic parents and their absenteeism are big issues. There is something called "Adult Child of an Alcoholic Parent", which is similar to NGS. I have also seen _similarities_ in some areas with the effects of CSA, and NGs tend to pair up with CSA survivors quite frequently. It is a bit of a Perfect Storm when that happens.
> 
> ...



No I cant recall any real avoidance behavior in sex or physical affection.
We, of course, had at one point a very fulfilling, varied sex/intimate life.
I DO feel that she avoids sex/sexual situations now, but that again is a symptom (I believe) of the place we are at now. And let me be clear I "FEEL she is avoiding," whether or not she truly is I am unsure.
But, I take every comment of "I'm tired" "long day" "the kids are terrible" etc. etc. as "I dont want sex."

A couple of years ago, she made a comment that at the time didn't stick but hits me now...
right after having sex, she said to me (along the lines of, not verbatim) "You know I dont really think about/desire sex, but once we are into it I REALLY enjoy it."


As for the ED, once it was an obvious problem I immediately saw a doctor. T levels were fine, doc told me it came down to stress, mental issue etc.
Gave me Viagra samples and a Cialis prescription... we did the Viagra thing once. But ultimately I know it boiled down, in her mind, "he doesn't want me, it takes drugs for him to desire me."
And then I started down the wrong path of just trying to have a constant boner, so I resulted to "secretive behavior" of trying any and every supplement, vitamin etc. that claimed to give erections. I even secretly took Cialis (a lot) to try and "fix" it on my own.
But then again, I heard every comment as "I dont want sex" (though she never said that) and in the end couldn't just "do it."

And of course I couldn't, I was being dishonest, hiding things etc. and I felt the shame, the guilt.
So I quit ALL that nonsense and tried another course, and another, and another and here I am.
And where I am now, feels "closer" to the real issues (mine) than I have been over the last two years.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

PretzelLogic said:


> But, I take every comment of "I'm tired" "long day" "the kids are terrible" etc. etc. as "I dont want sex."
> 
> A couple of years ago, she made a comment that at the time didn't stick but hits me now...
> right after having sex, she said to me (along the lines of, not verbatim) "You know I dont really think about/desire sex, but once we are into it I REALLY enjoy it."


The preemptive rejection. I called it the "pre-excuse". My x used to do that all the time. Rather than have to say no when I would try to initiate sex, she would preemptively give an excuse so that I wouldn't even try.

Is your W doing this, or is she just complaining a lot? That can be a tough call really. You can try to ignore her pre-excuses and just initiate anyway. If she frequently still turns you down, then yes she is trying to prevent you from initiating. My xw also engaged in physical pre-emption. She'd go to bed early if I looked like I was going to stay up, and she'd stay up if I was starting to get ready for bed. She'd get up early on a Saturday morning before I could make a move.

But if your W responds positively to your initiating, maybe she's just complaining not pre-excusing. Women can be "responsive desire", meaning they don't think about sex ahead of time, but once things get started in bed they do enjoy it. In which case she just feels tired or is annoyed about the kids during the day, so she verbalizes it, but it is not a signal that she doesn't want sex.

JBHO (Just Bend Her Over) is perhaps a bit crude, but the idea is to stop trying to read the tea leaves ahead of time. If you feel like having sex with her, just go for it. JBHO. (But in a respectful, politically correct manner with full consent :wink2


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Thor said:


> JBHO (Just Bend Her Over) is perhaps a bit crude, but the idea is to stop trying to read the tea leaves ahead of time. If you feel like having sex with her, just go for it. JBHO. (But in a respectful, politically correct manner with full consent :wink2


And therein lies a lot of my "issue."
I DO feel like this is one approach that I WANT to take and feel, perhaps, what she is looking for.
She has in the past (way past) asked me to be more "take charge" more "caveman" (her exact words)... but that was a while ago.

And now knowing that previous sessions with ED, made her feel "humiliated" (again her exact words), the pressure/fear is great to NOT leave her feeling that way (which is ultimately to Not try).

I am ALWAYS looking a "sign," anything to say to me "i am open to sex, I am available to you." When I DONT see/get any "signs" (and I never see any) I get discouraged, fearful, etc.

Two nights ago (as I had this NMMNG education running through my brain) as we were in bed getting ready for sleep, my wife got out of bed went to the bathroom and walked over to my side of the bed.
She handed me a pair of scissors and with her back turned to me, pulled the back of her pants away from her, toward me exposing her butt/panties and asked that I "cut off an annoying tag on her pants."
I froze.
I freaked
I cut the tag off, while looking longingly at her exposed body.
best I could muster was a slight, caress of her butt/panties, and off to sleep we went.

Should I have just cut the damn panties off and gone for what "I wanted," I dont know.
Was this an opening or was it simply an "annoying tag" that needed removed.. I dont know.

I can certainly drive myself crazy trying to guess and assume and hope. When what I obviously NEED to do is be clear with what I want, what I need and with what I expect but jeez this is where I "fail most."


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Would the two of you please stop talking about my past marriage!


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Ynot said:


> Would the two of you please stop talking about my past marriage!


Well, i am just pleased to be discussing my "present marriage," my first and hopefully with work, my ONLY marriage!


Again, for whatever ends up happening one way or another I cant express enough the thanks for everyones reading and replying... this is THE MOST I have ever shared about myself and my marriage outside my own head.
I feel better for it.

Thank you to all


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

PretzelLogic said:


> Well, i am just pleased to be discussing my "present marriage," my first and hopefully with work, my ONLY marriage!
> 
> 
> Again, for whatever ends up happening one way or another I cant express enough the thanks for everyones reading and replying... this is THE MOST I have ever shared about myself and my marriage outside my own head.
> ...


I wish you success.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

PretzelLogic said:


> A couple of years ago, she made a comment that at the time didn't stick but hits me now...
> right after having sex, she said to me (along the lines of, not verbatim) "You know I dont really think about/desire sex, but once we are into it I REALLY enjoy it."


That seems like a very clear description of what is referred to as "responsive desire", and it is not all that unusual in women.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

PretzelLogic

Responsive desire is very common among women, so when she tells you she doesn't thin about sex to begin with but she ENJOYS it go for the enjoy part big time.

She is describing herself and it had little to do with anything you did or didn't do. Think of what she said as she likes chocolate ice cream but doesn't think of it during the day. In other words she likes it but it does not occupy a lot of her mental time during the day.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hey, as a 50-60 year old non bald doctor (of philosophy ) I resent the remark. Not.

Spot on about the good doctor...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

drastic changes are more fun. I'm in week 2 of separation and feel fine. At 58 it's likely my future sex life will be about as good as my cat's (he's fixed, an offspring of national championship parents).

I don't care. The cat doesn't either.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

I thought I'd update my thread a lil after some time and weekend.
Though nothing major to update...

No real progress and in reality some "slippage" on my part over the weekend.
I found myself in a "funk" Sunday morning from not seeing any "immediate gains" over the weekend and as well was feeling shame/guilt as in lieu of trying to "initiate" Saturday night as I wanted/desired to, I succumbed to fear and masturbated instead of "trying to approach."
My wife could tell I was "off" on Sunday morning and asked "whats wrong?," I replied with "nothing... I'm good." (not true).
So no two ways around it, I lied, still not being HONEST.

I DID pick up my attitude and had a fine time overall the remainder of the day with the family.

But, I still am looking for "signs of interest" from my wife (CONSTANTLY) and feeling angry when I don't "see" anything.
I recognize that this "anger" is misplaced, but damn its hard to NOT think that way and I keep asking myself "why doesn't my wife understand/see I have NEEDS?"
Of course, what I am really asking is "why doesn't my wife assume that I have needs that are unspoken?" which is unreasonable.

As well, I did find myself this weekend rushing around the house to do things "for her" in hopes she would notice. 

So lots of work to go and I remind myself that "Working on me" is the best avenue, and that I cant simply be "result driven."


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Pretzel Logic, you need to stop looking for signs from your wife. Those are expectations in return for you doing x, y, or z. It is still a covert contract. So just stop, looking. You are looking for validation outside of your self, which is what Nice Guys do. Start looking for validation within, whether or not she responds is up to her and shouldn't matter to you at all. Move on with your plans, if she decides to join in great. If she doesn't? Great, because now she has identified that she isn't someone who you want to be a part of the new life you want to live.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Ynot said:


> Pretzel Logic, you need to stop looking for signs from your wife. Those are expectations in return for you doing x, y, or z. It is still a covert contract. So just stop, looking. You are looking for validation outside of your self, which is what Nice Guys do. Start looking for validation within, whether or not she responds is up to her and shouldn't matter to you at all. Move on with your plans, if she decides to join in great. If she doesn't? Great, because now she has identified that she isn't someone who you want to be a part of the new life you want to live.


Yep, I hear you and KNOW you are right.
While I want to "fix me" I know that a lot of my mindset is that I'm trying to "fix us," need to be more on the "me" side of that.

I have a little goal this week to quit smoking, which is something I need/want to do for myself.
I "had" been waiting for one more post sex smoke to quit... lol, may have been a misplaced "goal.":|

Why can't we as humans just get "reprogrammed?" would be much easier!


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

PretzelLogic said:


> I found myself in a "funk" Sunday morning from not seeing any "immediate gains" over the weekend and as well was feeling shame/guilt as in lieu of trying to "initiate" Saturday night as I wanted/desired to, I succumbed to fear and masturbated instead of "trying to approach."


Funny you say that, I felt the same thing after reading the book (and Hold on to your Nuts & Married man sex primer)

I started to make changes and was just sitting there waiting for her responses....

All i can say is keep improving yourself... keep making yourself more desirable. Try to get more touchy with her (both physical and emotionally) but don't always do it as your first phase of sex... she needs to know that you DONT only do those things b/c you want to orgasm. I started by just kissing her more often (from behind when she was seated) or getting hugs... grab ass, etc.... Started to actually pay attention to her like "you look great today, i love XXX about XXX" - be specific

I read those books back in November and I just started to see changes in her... 
*First 1-3 weeks:* "Whats up with you lately?"
*Weeks 3-6:* Her going along with my new sex desires (being physical every other day on average)
*Weeks 8-Now:* "Whatever happened, i like it"
*Now (Like TODAY): * She was navigating sex toy websites with me for some new things to try. She knows that i want sex every other day (on average) without me having to do all the clues i did back when i was clueless

So hang in there... Even if you make immediate improvements, dont expect her to react immediately.. she needs to see if this is real, or just some fad diet that will go away after a week.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PretzelLogic said:


> But, I still am looking for "signs of interest" from my wife (CONSTANTLY) and feeling angry when I don't "see" anything.
> I recognize that this "anger" is misplaced, but damn its hard to NOT think that way and I keep asking myself "why doesn't my wife understand/see I have NEEDS?"
> Of course, what I am really asking is "why doesn't my wife assume that I have needs that are unspoken?" which is unreasonable.
> 
> ...


The good news is that you know what you're doing wrong and you know how to do better.

That's half the game right there.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Steve2.0 said:


> Funny you say that, I felt the same thing after reading the book (and Hold on to your Nuts & Married man sex primer)
> 
> I started to make changes and was just sitting there waiting for her responses....
> 
> ...


Thanks for that, I love hearing success stories...
I definitely need to get back into the habit of spontaneous kisses, affection etc.
I honestly can not remember the last time I just grabbed my wife and kissed her. We kiss often but its been relegated to specific times of the day and for the last couple of years it has been "peck kisses" about three in a row each time.

Though, there is a "Kiss issue" here, where she comes at me with "puckered, Kiss lips" pretty much making anything beyond a "peck" REAL hard.
As well, when I have "tried" to go beyond "peck kiss" or even when we "peck kiss" (in bed mostly, with me wanting to go further) she will pull away and say "It doesn't feel like you are kissing me" obviously bothered/upset by it.
Sometimes, I almost feel like I no longer know how to kiss her, but I also know its probably (maybe) my stress over the situation and trying to sub-consciously express EVERY want, need, emotion,etc. in a single kiss (peck too).

I as well used to do a fair amount of "grab ass" pats, spanks, grabs (as I dearly LOVE her ass), but stopped around June of last year, the last time I tried "discussing the issue."

The kisses, the grab ass, the general playful flirting IS something I really want (and need), so again I guess I gotta just "do it," unless of course she tells me to "stop."

I gotta get outta my head.
I'm feeling a little low today, but NOT defeated and nowhere close to giving up... but time, she slips, slips away!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

PretzelLogic

Don't grab ass.

You need to forgive your wife. Absolutely forgive her. 

It is totally up to her that she changes herself, if she can. It is not your job to force her to change. If she can't then your marriage will fail, through no fault of your own. You need to focus on your and living a good life that you are proud of and make you proud of who you are.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> PretzelLogic
> 
> Don't grab ass.
> 
> ...


First, thank you for the repose.
I read your response first thing this morning and it has been bouncing around my head...
You may be on to something in that I need to "forgive my wife."

I admit to feeling resentment, and while I try to recognize it as "moments of resentment," and try to make it more about resenting the "situation" rather than the person... perhaps I have built a little hill of resentment, that needs to be let go.

But, dumb question... How does someone forgive in this situation? What is forgiveness here? 
And to add to that, I HAVE NOT expressed my dissatisfaction, expectations, wants/desires etc, in about 7-months... 
So as of now, I am expecting (wanting) change to come purely through improvement to myself and a hope that my wife simply "comes along."

So is forgiveness here, me "letting go" of the issues of the last couple of years (knowing I MAY have been the major cause)?

I have been reminding myself that my wife is a "gift" and quite honestly the "greatest gift" I have ever been given.
And on a more positive side, the last two nights my wife and I have "snuggled" as we fall asleep and its been amazing and been a while since we have done so in earnest.
First night, she curled into me and had her hand on my chest (a touch that brings me arousal) and while I really enjoyed it I noticed a large amount of anxiety, to the point that my heart was racing and which I am sure she noticed. 

I'm pretty sure that all the problems are literally "in my head."
I have spent a lifetime living in my own thoughts, and I am TERRIBLE about having "conversations with my wife" in my head and you know what? They tend to turnout negatively.

Another day another issue (or two) to overcome.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PretzelLogic said:


> Hi, first time poster, long time lurker...
> 
> Early 40's here been married 9 years and I am a "nice guy."
> I just recently completed the book NMMNG.
> ...


The point of NMMNG is to figure out who you are - by yourself. Your wife -and your relationship with her - is the problem. So why would you think that talking to her would FIX anything?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PretzelLogic said:


> Should I have just cut the damn panties off and gone for what "I wanted," I dont know.


Yes


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

turnera said:


> Yes


Damn!
Kinda figured so 

Blech!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You wanna know how most women think and feel when it comes to the bedroom?

Go to the bookstore or library and pick up a couple romance novels. After a couple, you'll understand. Be strong, take my breath away, don't need me but be aware of me, take what you want, make it so I 'couldn't say no.' It's a psychological thing.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife likes to read romance novels. I took some out of her hands and read those.

Quite illuminating.

As a disclaimer, I've never been a nice guy. In fact I am very aggressive, always have been, and I have always just done what I wanted. If a woman said no, I stopped. I do respect a woman's right to say no. After I married my wife I learned no is not her safe word. We have had our problems, for sure, but sex has not been one of them.

But the romance novels were quite an eye opener. I wanted to chime in about that.

Does your wife read romance novels? If so, take one out of her hands and read it.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Im also finding, that implementing NMMNG (or the red pill theories) is a slow transition.

Just like the requirement to get fit and lift weights... which can take over a MONTH to even notice something in the mirror... all the internal changes you are making will take just as long to start noticing something.

You may feel great after going to the gym; I've been the guy checking myself out after just my first week at the gym... yet there is no real difference in my look. 

Its the same with all of this attitude stuff towards your wife... You may FEEL like you are a different person, but the actual changes take a while to 'build muscle'

Patience is the hard part for me...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

And, there will be occasional back sliding. As we learn new skills we sometimes fall back into old habits or thought patterns. Recognize it, correct it, move on. Don't beat yourself up for making occasional errors. Understand that you now are capable of recognizing the errors, whereas before you didn't even know what you were doing.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

And speaking of "back sliding".... here I am with an update in one word...."stalled."

My progress has hit the brakes here lately, due to the death of a family member.
This death, while anticipated nearly 48-hours prior to actually happening has taken a SEVERE toll on my wife.
I have NEVER seen her with this much emotion/depression.
Today is officially one-week of this "depression, and admittedly I am having a hard time with it.

...and by-the-by this death I speak of was the scheduled passing of a 20-year old pet.

I have been in full-on "Nice Guy" mode, helping to pick up her pieces and do ALL I can to ease it.
I am being hailed as her "rock."

Don't feel like a rock... perhaps pyrite...


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Since I know ALL were dying for one....

*UPDATE*

I DID end up telling my wife about reading NMMNG and how I believe I have these traits.
It all ended up coming out during a BIG 2-day fight we had ~2-weeks ago and in fact I was able to say some things I wanted/needed to say for a long time... to include that " I feel loved through sex" and that the lack of sex has had a "profoundly negative affect on my entire being/life"...


So... has this lead to me being less of a "nice guy?"
Has our sex life "improved?"

Maybe, no.

I am more focused on doing things for "me" not majorly but more so than I have in the past.
I have now been "cigarette free" for ~6-weeks, nicotine free for ~2.5 weeks.
I have been trying to get into better shape (which for me required gaining weight... which has been tough!)

My wife and I are doing more "snuggling" at bed time than we have in a long time (really are now falling asleep snuggled every night) and I even "got to" spoon with my wife "once" since this all happened (which hey is the closest my penis has been to her in a looooong time... and it was just really really nice, albeit frustrating)
This makes me "happy."
But also VERY aware that progress is slooooooow and obviously not going to progress if I am not the one driving it... admittedly I had hoped there would be some "effort on her part, for me." and I guess thats what the snuggling is.. but understand that the snuggling is NOT a veiled attempt at sex/sexual touch etc. but does feel like "here's what I'm offering take it or leave it."

Still having "kiss issues."

So all in all... Was telling here about NMMNG a bad/detrimental thing?... no I dont think so
but did it spark US into action?...no

I aint one to give up
I know what I want
Now, all I can do is pursue what I want, see where I get and decide if its "enough."
Hope does spring eternal...right?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

PretzelLogic said:


> Since I know ALL were dying for one....
> 
> *UPDATE*
> 
> ...


It _was_ a bad thing, because by telling her you drastically slowed down the effect. She sees the changes you're making and instead of wondering about it and worrying that you're getting ready to make a drastic change if she doesn't step up, she's thinking you're just following some book and waiting for you to decide the book is stupid and won't work and go back to the way you were. 

You began your race by shooting yourself in the foot and now you're *****ing because your pace is slow.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Why did you think telling her was in any way a good idea??? You are trying to manipulate her but you just told her that.

Anyway. Great name. Love Steely Dan.


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## Um Excuse Me (Feb 3, 2018)

Nucking Futs said:


> It _was_ a bad thing, because by telling her you drastically slowed down the effect. She sees the changes you're making and instead of wondering about it and worrying that you're getting ready to make a drastic change if she doesn't step up, she's thinking you're just following some book and waiting for you to decide the book is stupid and won't work and go back to the way you were.
> 
> You began your race by shooting yourself in the foot and now you're *****ing because your pace is slow.


Very well said, NF.....Very well said....


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Nucking Futs said:


> It _was_ a bad thing, because by telling her you drastically slowed down the effect. She sees the changes you're making and instead of wondering about it and worrying that you're getting ready to make a drastic change if she doesn't step up, she's thinking you're just following some book and waiting for you to decide the book is stupid and won't work and go back to the way you were.
> 
> You began your race by shooting yourself in the foot and now you're *****ing because your pace is slow.


Perhaps... but I aint *****ing. Slow pace is better than "no pace."
And in fact I pretty much told my wife that I think the book is stupid, but that I am indeed unhappy with a lot about myself and "our" relationship and that changes ARE in motion no matter.

So however it took me to get there... I am there.
And quite frankly, one major issue I have is not being open, honest and feeling the need no "hide things."

So I am certainly NOT going to be defeatist over being honest.

Time will tell though, cards falling where they may, cookies will crumble. etcetera


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Why did you think telling her was in any way a good idea??? You are trying to manipulate her but you just told her that.
> 
> Anyway. Great name. Love Steely Dan.


Steely Dan IS great 

and really NOT trying to manipulate my wife...
Rather be honest about being flawed.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear PretzelLogic;

Getting rid of your Nice Guy card is about becoming a more integrated and fascinating person to women. 

You are working at getting healthier and that is great. Do things that bring you happiness and a sense of accomplishment. Do things that change who you are (in your mind and others) and the way your wife looks at you. 

Earlier this year my wife and I were on vacation and were at a play in London. A lady with her adult daughter sat down next to us and started talking about the play and asked where we were from. I said we were from the US and she asked if we had been in the UK long. My wife said we just got there, I said I got there about a week ago and had finished a 400 mile bike ride and just joined my wife the other day. She and her daughter then proceeded to ask all kinds of questions and think it was just marvelous that I would/could do something like that. My wife couldn't help but view me as something a bit special.

I was doing the long rides because I wanted to; not to manipulate my wife, but it did ultimately change the way my wife viewed me. Ultimately, she had to admit that I was a different person and continuing to change and transform myself. Which meant she needed to be careful about treating me in the same old way she always had, as that wasn't me anymore. Actually she now sometimes takes pride in my accomplishments.

Good luck. Stay the course. She will either come around, or you will get tired of her and find that others are out there that want to take her place. If that happens, do the right thing and don't cheat on her. 

Remember that covert contracts are what Nice Guys do. Long term spouses can spot a covert contract a mile away. As such you aren't really micro manipulating your wife if you have dropped all covert contracts.

If you a snuggling and spooning your wife because it feels good and not as a prelude to sex, then you are fine, but always check your motivation.  There will come a time when you can honestly tell her that you would like to have sex with her. She may say no, in which case, you need to let it go and silently say "your loss." Then again there will also be a time where she will likely say yes, in which case you need to enjoy it for what it is, something you both want to do at a particular moment and not assign any special meaning to it. 

Good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you really read the book? Because if you had, you'd know NOT to tell her about it, and that you should start ACTING like an alpha male and at the very least, STOP TALKING. Just DO.


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Man its a tough crowd... 
No I DID NOT read the book.
But I listened to the audio book.

And trust me "talking" is not something I do a lot of.
As I said.. I AM doing more of what "I want" I have stated what "I want" "what I need" and how I intend to "improve for me."
During our BIG fight, I dint back down and go for the "apology to end the fight" as I always did, I held my ground... so from my perspective I am indeed being more Alpha.
Could I do more, sure... I was under the impression this was a process.

Yeah I clued her into what I "read," and know what it got her to admit to what she is feeling, going through and to admit that she too wants improvement and that SHE has a part in that too.

So if the prevailing thought here is that I have simply "shot myself in the foot," then I will sit back and tend my wound.
One size DOES NOT fit all

Thanks for the support y'all.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You are right, @PretzelLogic, not all cases are alike. Though most don't advise it, Dr. Glover says you should have that conversation. It's inevitable to happen. How could such change not be noticed? 

Each step is like an experiment, what works for you may not for others. What's best about your stich is that you are taking steps to move forward and not standing still. You will have missteps, as long as you correct them you will continue to move forward... wherever that leads. 

Best


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I don't know about NMMNG. I love the one I'm married to. We had a patch we a lower sex rate. That's because he was too nice and I'm not assertive in the bedroom.

I'm responsive desire there are plenty of days I'll tell him I'm tired. Because I am. I'm stressed, because I am. It doesn't mean that if he puts in a little foreplay that I won't be totally into it, glad we did, would rather have sex than sleep. But he spent a while thinking touching my shoulder was initating and had earlier heard me say I was tired so if I didn't roll over and basically initiate then he'd give up ( like you). Now because we've talked he knows unless I say it ain't happening ( which I'll do occasionally and feel comfortable doing cause we are in the same page now), to just keep rubbing, better parts than my shoulder and I'll warm right up.

Overall I guess nice guy syndrome hurt our sex life some but now we have all kinds of good sex and he's still a nice guy. Women do usually want the guy to be in charge in bed and many are shy about what they want like or need. Don't assume I'm tired is anything more than communication of a state of energy.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

PretzelLogic said:


> Since I know ALL were dying for one....
> 
> *UPDATE*
> 
> ...


I suspect you'll continue to be in a sexless marriage and will stay right there. She's figured out she can do as she pleases and you'll do nothing about it. That's the big problem. Deep down you are to cowardly to act on what you want/need.

Probably a bad case of codependency.


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## biwing (Feb 2, 2017)

Quality said:


> I have a different view. I don't think you fix marital relationship problems by yourself. Sure you might bag her a few extra times but some of these "manosphere" books are just smoke and mirrors. When the game wears out you'll be even more frustrated having put in such tremendous efforts and STILL not getting the sex and intimacy you are seeking in your relationships.


I totally agree with this!! Communication in a relationship is paramount to it's success! I say this as I've been married for 49 years now and after I learned this fact it has been the best years of my life, with no regrets.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

OP, the basic honest truth is that there are nice guys, and then there are cowardly floor-mats who lack the testicular fortitude to stand up for themselves, have zero confidence in themselves as a man, and continually do whatever they think will get the most approval from others.

I'm thinking you're the latter.

Your wife no doubt sees you as weak and needy and that's about as unattractive as a man can possibly get in my book.

I've known plenty of "nice guys" who were genuinely nice and caring men - treated their wives well, respected their mothers, would stop to help a stranger with a flat tire, donated to charity, etc. etc. etc. However, they weren't afraid of their own shadows and didn't back down to everyone because they were too afraid to open their mouths. That's not a 'nice guy.' That's just being a wimp.

The term 'nice guy' is really just a kinder way of saying 'wimp.' It's the same principle as calling an extremely overweight woman a "BBW." I mean..come on.

How about you STOP pandering to your wife by trying to point out what a 'man' you're becoming in the hopes of getting sex? That's just so pitiful but more so, just makes you look needy and weak.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> The term 'nice guy' is really just a kinder way of saying 'wimp.'


Yeah, but it's more than that, it's "manipulative wimp". It's "dishonest wimp".


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

OP, I disagree with those saying you shouldn't tell your W. As someone else has said communication is the key to almost every marital issue. However, I sincerely hope you are being truthful and did not tell her in an attempt to manipulate her somehow. But now it is on you to follow thru and continue your focus on yourself. She has been advised of what you are doing. Now it is up to her to step up. If she doesn't? That is her problem at that point. But you will always be able to say you tried. As a stronger, more self-focused, integrated male, it may come to the point where you next tell her to crap or get of the pot. If she doesn't start to make any movement towards you, you might need to cut her loose and find a better spouse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post below is a mixed bag. It contains some useful observations and it also includes one piece of terrible advice. 

The terrible advice is to ‘discuss this’ with your wife. 

And that is because doing so combines two ‘nice guy’ traits that women loathe and I mean loathe:
1. Is substituting talking for action
2. Asking her approval to do things that you absolutely know you should be doing - and yes - one subtext of talking to her is approval seeking

This type conversation is inherently dishonest because what you will be seeking - by having it - is her to reassure you that this self improvement program is a good idea and that she won’t divorce the ‘real you’ whoever that turns out to be. 

I have news for you - she isn’t going to like it. You’ve set a terrible precedent where she usually/always gets her way and she is comfortable with that and with the status quo. She isn’t initially going to like these changes. If you do it right AND you are a decent fellow - she will love you more at the end of the process. And yes that means she will desire you more. 





Ynot said:


> Actually, one of the things I believe that Glover suggests is that you DO share it with your wife or SO. He also says that the results may not be what you had hoped for, but even that is for the best.
> But having said that, regardless of whether you share it or not, the sole purpose for following his guide is to allow you to focus on you. In doing so you may discover that the woman you married is not the right person for what you want out of life. Or she may discover that what you want out of life is not something she can abide with. Either way, you need to focus on you and not on the relationship.
> So would I share it with my wife? Yep, and then it would be up to her to accept it or not. I think in part, my own divorce was caused by me not recognizing how much a nice guy I had become. I too fit the description to a T. I lived my life to make every one else happy at the expense of my own happiness. She lost all respect for me. I do not know if she might have gained some had I been more assertive or if she might have decided that at that time, a door mat was what she wanted and left earlier. It doesn't matter, because the past is the past.
> Now, however, I am much more assertive and make clear my intentions and wants. If some woman is off put by that, it is cool. She has just self identified as some one I do not want or need in my life. There are no hard feelings, it just is what it is.
> I think if you apply what you have read to your everyday life. You will see some ups (getting what you want, which is happiness) and possibly some downs (loosing the woman you thought you loved). Needless to say complete recovery takes awhile and will not happen over night. You have a life time of thought habit to overcome. Which is something I tend to suffer from every so often. But if you persevere you will overcome it and have a better life.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The book is stupid but it is accurate about me not being happy with myself or how you treat me but I kind of need you to sign up for your part (subtext: either feeling passion for me or at least tolerating sex even if you don’t feel passion).

Short for: I need your approval to improve myself




PretzelLogic said:


> Perhaps... but I aint *****ing. Slow pace is better than "no pace."
> And in fact I pretty much told my wife that I think the book is stupid, but that I am indeed unhappy with a lot about myself and "our" relationship and that changes ARE in motion no matter.
> 
> So however it took me to get there... I am there.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

As averse as the OP has been to provide a clear picture of his marital dynamic - he has shared one very useful fact. 

He ALWAYS apologized (until this last fight which he provides zero info about) when they had conflict. 

Weakness is a turn off, and apologizing when you both know the other person was in the wrong is pretty overt weakness. 

And surprises me a bit when people bring up the whole theme about how - marriage is about communication. 

Of course that’s true. Also true that most of my sexual communication is non verbal. That can’t just be me. 

And I fail to see how it helps to talk round in circles. I read this book and it is kind of stupid but kind of accurate and I’m kind of going to follow it and maybe you can think about if you might sort of feel like having sex with me some day. 

Point being you should only talk if you are actually good at talking. 






Thor said:


> Nice Guys tend to pair up with dysfunctional women. While you are right to look at yourself, don't give your W a free pass. Her failure to respond to your talk about sexlessness speaks to some measure of dysfunction within her.
> 
> Do you know if she has any history of child sex abuse, sex assault after puberty, or other traumas as she was growing up?


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Contrary to popular belief people (men/women) dont know what subconsciously turns them on. A man can see a fit women walk buy and it fires all his 'desire' guns.... but that man could not articulate, with words, exactly what is making him desire that women (except maybe nice ass/breasts)

Married women seem to have this same confusion about what fires their 'desire' guns.... They think its a helpful nice guy who gives emotional support but those arent the things that get them really wet.

A few months ago, as i was initiating sex with my wife she made the comment that she 'wasnt in the mood because I didnt provide her the emotional connection she needed" > Which was bull**** because I had been an active listener all day, gave her some attention, etc..... (none of which was covert contracts)

A few days ago she was on instagram before bed time and i rolled over and said "well if your not going to go to sleep..." and pulled down her pants and underwear... She was VERY interested.... No pre-built emotional requirements or anything. 

Anyway, you need to start implementing more of the "NMMNG" and less of the chatty nice guy. The talks about lack of sex just drive a bigger wedge between you and her desire for you.

I would also recommend reading books... audio books might be good for mindless background noise, but you need to really READ the words and absorb them... dedicate the time to consume the book... If you listen during rush hour traffic you are guaranteed to miss pieces while changing lanes, etc..

Your next book needs to be "Married Man Sex life Primer" and "Mindful Attraction Plan"

There is also a reddit forum called "marriedredpill" and "askmrp" - i suggest you read some more about it

Also, anything you read on these topics have a top priority of joining a gym and lifting weights... have you done this critical first step?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Doc Glover also makes a strong point that you cannot simply read (or listen to) the book. You have to actually DO the exercises in it.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> The post below is a mixed bag. It contains some useful observations and it also includes one piece of terrible advice.
> 
> The terrible advice is to ‘discuss this’ with your wife.
> 
> ...


Despite your opinion that the book is stupid, the fact is, none the less, is that the OP has chosen to read it and employ its methods. One part of those methods includes urging the reader to discuss the fact that they have read the book. Not for the reasons you stated in your opinion, but simply from the standpoint of informing them. One shouldn't be asking permission, nor attempting to manipulate a reaction, not using it as a substitute for action. In fact it is part of the action that you are undertaking. Glover cautions that the reaction from the spouse may not be a positive one and could end up resulting in the end of the relationship. But the book isn't about saving a relationship. It is about saving yourself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I figured it was obvious from context that I was paraphrasing the OP. 

I have never read the book. So just to clarify my point, since perhaps it was not well made. 

The OP informs his wife that he has read this book and is about to embark on a program of self improvement. He then tells us that he told her the book was kind of stupid but it also has a bunch of good ideas. And that he isn’t happy with himself or their lack of sex. 





Ynot said:


> Despite your opinion that the book is stupid, the fact is, none the less, is that the OP has chosen to read it and employ its methods. One part of those methods includes urging the reader to discuss the fact that they have read the book. Not for the reasons you stated in your opinion, but simply from the standpoint of informing them. One shouldn't be asking permission, nor attempting to manipulate a reaction, not using it as a substitute for action. In fact it is part of the action that you are undertaking. Glover cautions that the reaction from the spouse may not be a positive one and could end up resulting in the end of the relationship. But the book isn't about saving a relationship. It is about saving yourself.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I figured it was obvious from context that I was paraphrasing the OP.
> 
> I have never read the book. So just to clarify my point, since perhaps it was not well made.
> 
> The OP informs his wife that he has read this book and is about to embark on a program of self improvement. He then tells us that he told her the book was kind of stupid but it also has a bunch of good ideas. And that he isn’t happy with himself or their lack of sex.


Well it wasn't obvious, because the post that you quoted was from me and not the OP. Otherwise I would generally agree with you. I am merely pointing out that Glover recommends a talk with your SO. The OP did not do himself any favors by being ambivalent in his actions


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

Again, I DO appreciate everyone comments (good, bad or otherwise)...
And I definitely have left large portions of my marriage out of the details, more for brevity than to mislead.

But, I can definitely say while I DO have Nice guy tendencies I am by no means a "doormat." 
And the Nice Guy tendencies really revolve around my interactions/relationship with my wife, and no where else really as much.
But that is the crux isnt it...

I am STILL at it, not smoking (wife still smokes), I am exercising more, doing more activities that I want to do, including getting back into a hobby I abandoned years ago... opted to do "other things" this weekend than what my wife would have had me do, of course still taking care of what needs taken care of. 
I am actually feeling a level of "success," relative success but success all the same and truly I know my wife deeply respects the person I am.. room for improvement, always and I certainly am not afraid of a challenge.

Someone further recommended I read other books, such as MMSLP... I actually did read that book a couple years back.
Read it, not listened.
That booked irked me a bit, in that a LATE chapter in the book talks about situation where the book (and the authors advice) may not work...
One of those situations was if your wife is Bi-polar... well, ****... my wife IS bi-polar, perhaps good points to place earlier in the book...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

He$$, you're married 9 years, tell her what you're reading unless you specifically want to try things, then don't. This has to be your call. You're the only one here that knows the condition and dynamics of your marriage. *I might, or I might not, myself, talking about books in general. I have shared some, not shared but not hidden, others. 

Now that's clear as mud 😊.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pretzel,

Sounds like progress. 

I think you will find that fixing your sex life will require a very significant shift in your mindset. 

So far you have followed a pattern of posting that we often see here on TAM. That pattern is very highly correlated with a result best described as ‘marital status quo’. Meaning that your core dynamic won’t change much, either in or out of the bedroom. 

In the interest of being constructive, I will share some specific patterns that tend to result in mediocre results:
1. infrequent posting - a low engagement level with the interactive element of the process. While reading books can be helpful - reading is unidirectional and the books are not specific to your circumstance. 
2. an ego protective posting style - this has several sub components including: (a) avoidance of responses to specific posts and instead making generic thank you type replies to everyone. (b) avoidance of difficult topics such as the actual conflicts you have with your wife (c) the blanket use of excuses such as the bi polar label. I know some bi polar folks and they apologize to and have sex with their partners
3. major contradictions between your depiction of events and your assessment of the situation such as: you assert that your wife has a very high level of respect for you, despite the fact that she never apologizes and never has sex with you

In my experience the no sex no apology template has a low correlation to the high respect dynamic

I have never once seen anyone protect their ego and improve their sex life. Not once and I have been at this a decade.




PretzelLogic said:


> Again, I DO appreciate everyone comments (good, bad or otherwise)...
> And I definitely have left large portions of my marriage out of the details, more for brevity than to mislead.
> 
> But, I can definitely say while I DO have Nice guy tendencies I am by no means a "doormat."
> ...


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## PretzelLogic (Jan 16, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> I think you will find that fixing your sex life will require a very significant shift in your mindset.


Which is what I am "attempting" to work on and why I came here in the first place...
I get that I may be "fitting the mold" of previous posters who got "no where," but please understand I have NO ego to protect here and only want for improvement.
That's it...

I am an optimistic person by nature.. but I know that hope alone aint going to get me where I want to be...
In the meantime I AM doing more, saying less.
I AM open to any questions, advice etc. anything anyone can add to further my progress.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pretzel,

The post below - your first one - was excellent. Incredibly honest summary finished with a very specific request for advice. 

And then I kept reading and kept liking your posts. Raw - unfiltered - honest. 

Mostly I think the combo of the month absence and the talking to wife about book - mentioning a huge fight without explaining it drove my comments. 

As for the ED meds - you need to be blunt and unapologetic. My delivery would be: 

This isn’t about a lack of desire, it’s the combination of aging (smoking didn’t help you any when you smoked) and anxiety. And fwiw - some of that anxiety is identical to yours - I don’t feel like you have a lot of desire for me. We are going to break this cycle we are in and I am going to use meds to help and you are not going to make that choice ‘about you’ because it isn’t about you, it’s about me. And fwiw (part 2) if some day you need to use lubricant so sex isn’t painful - I am not going to take it personally and refuse you sex. (Calm delivery and then do not debate this - at all - if she complains - just don’t reply).

—————
In the meantime - playfully wrestle with her. M2 and I wrestle. It’s fun and a type of foreplay. 




PretzelLogic said:


> Hi, first time poster, long time lurker...
> 
> Early 40's here been married 9 years and I am a "nice guy."
> I just recently completed the book NMMNG.
> ...


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