# Strange thing happened along the way..



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

So I've been trudging through this sex in marriage thing for years. Posting on several websites like TAM, got kicked off of one, read several books and did everything I could to change myself and be a better husband.

I used to be an angry, impatient, needy, fat, insecure, lousy lover and husband.
After doing all that I could do to change the sexual dynamic in my 25 year marriage a strange thing happened along the way.

My worst negative in regards to attaining quality sex with my wife was my overt neediness. As the years have gone by while implementing all the changes, I realized that I was no longer needy. I stuffed that neediness and held it in till it almost killed me. Some of the hardest emotional wrestling I have ever done.

As you all probably know, since I don't stop talking about it, we have scheduled sex every Tuesday and Friday. Been that way for over a year. This past week my wife had a very bad period and has gotten sick with some kind of virus.
Confronted with her overall unwellness, I kindly suggested that we wait to have sex until she felt better.

My wife was shocked at my reaction. She could tell that it made NO difference to me one way or the other. I could just as easily wait to have sex or have it. Whatever. 

I feel that I have reached a milestone. In the past I would fret and expose my inner neediness to my wife, figuratively begging to have sex. Realizing that I now have control over my neediness and am VERY confident in my sexual abilities gives me the luxury of not really caring if we have sex or not. I have become the one in control and my wife can sense this. I have nothing to prove to my wife.

The better I get at controlling my self, the better I actually get at sex, the less I NEED sex to affirm my manhood. My wife could not believe it and offered a BJ or handjob to hold me over. I brushed it off and said I would rather wait to have great PIV sex when she got better. I think this is the first time in my entire life that I said this and actually *MEANT* what I said.

It is wonderful to see that in some ways my wife actually wants sex more than I do. What a switch!!

After 25 years of marriage, enduring humiliating starfish sex for countless years, I consider our current situation a miracle. I won't take all the credit because I have been praying daily that my marital situation would change.

Well, it has changed and I thank God.

Don't give up hope! Let us help married Americans have great sex again!!


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Good post UMP. Sex is great validation that you are loved and lovable. However in the past I think I have confused sexual desire with a need to be needed. Not needing that external validation is something I believe we all have struggled with at some point in our lives but it is well worth the effort of getting there. There is hope indeed!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For me it is realizing that I don't *need* sex with my wife, but recognizing that her behavior is selfish. I stay with her for other reasons despite her selfishness, not because it doesn't exist. I've also decided that I don't need to convince *her* that she is selfish since her behavior is not going to change. 

We have our routine "sex" on schedule. Its better than nothing, so I don't turn her down, but I haven't asked for sex in nearly a year.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

This is some sort of epiphany? 

If she clamped her legs shut for a year would you not care? Bet not .


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

messed up again


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

anonmd said:


> This is some sort of epiphany?
> 
> If she clamped her legs shut for a year would you not care? Bet not .


Epiphany? Yes.

The more you *need* sex from your wife, the less she will want to give it freely. The more you don't *need* sex from your wife, the more she will want to give it freely. 

What I wanted most in my marriage (quality, passionate sex) was not attainable until I got myself to the point of not "needing" it to be content as a man.

In other words, the way up is actually down and the way down is up, grasshopper.:grin2:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

double post


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

UMP said:


> My wife could not believe it and offered a BJ or handjob to hold me over. I brushed it off and said I would rather wait to have great PIV sex when she got better. I think this is the first time in my entire life that I said this and actually *MEANT* what I said.


I'll congratulate you, but at the same time I'll knock on wood (my desk, not my Jimmy)!

@UMP Every time I think I have reached a milestone and feel very positive about things, I'll come back to revisit a moment like this and discuss it with my wife only to find out that it made her feel sexually rejected and ugly that I would not be interested in a BJ or handjob from her and that waiting for "great PIV" made her feel like she would be forced to enjoy sex the next time we have it regardless if she was into it or not. 

Hopefully in your case you continued to give her some TLC and left the option open for some oral or a hand job if that was something she was motivated to do for you as a way to cheer herself up by seeing you happy. 

All I am saying, is without fail, every time I think something great has happened it is only because I am momentarily confused and soon find myself in a world of hurt. It never fails to surprise me how sexuality is something that thrives out of emotional conflict in ways you would never expect it to.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

UMP said:


> Epiphany? Yes.
> 
> The more you *need* sex from your wife, the less she will want to give it freely. The more you don't *need* sex from your wife, the more she will want to give it freely.
> 
> ...


Do you think that your new experience may just be that you know for sure you will have sex when she feels better on your next scheduled day. How would you feel if she keeps telling you she still doesn't feel good for weeks and that then drags out to a month or more. Then she kind of gets used to not having sex and reverts back to her old self. Would you still be OK with that?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

badsanta said:


> I'll congratulate you, but at the same time I'll knock on wood (my desk, not my Jimmy)!
> 
> @UMP Every time I think I have reached a milestone and feel very positive about things, I'll come back to revisit a moment like this and discuss it with my wife only to find out that it made her feel sexually rejected and ugly that I would not be interested in a BJ or handjob from her and that waiting for "great PIV" made her feel like she would be forced to enjoy sex the next time we have it regardless if she was into it or not.
> 
> ...


Can't win for losing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I'll congratulate you, but at the same time I'll knock on wood (my desk, not my Jimmy)!
> 
> @UMP Every time I think I have reached a milestone and feel very positive about things, I'll come back to revisit a moment like this and discuss it with my wife only to find out that it made her feel sexually rejected and ugly that I would not be interested in a BJ or handjob from her and that waiting for "great PIV" made her feel like she would be forced to enjoy sex the next time we have it regardless if she was into it or not.
> 
> ...


I disagree.

Even if my wife felt such and such regarding my postponement of sex, it does not matter. What does matter is that I CLEARLY showed that I did not NEED to have sex. Whatever negative she perceives will be wiped out after we have sex because she will have a roaring orgasm and will clearly see mine as well. 

All set back to zero.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Always Learning said:


> Do you think that your new experience may just be that you know for sure you will have sex when she feels better on your next scheduled day. How would you feel if she keeps telling you she still doesn't feel good for weeks and that then drags out to a month or more. Then she kind of gets used to not having sex and reverts back to her old self. Would you still be OK with that?


My carrot is now a bit too tasty for that to happen.
Remember, I got a HELL of a lot better at having sex too.

As they say, "money talks and bullshiit walks." If I had nothing exciting to offer her in the sex department, I would agree with you.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I suppose at this age (as a fellow 5x'er  )you've got a 1/2 way decent chance of it lasting long enough that when it ends you truly won't care.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

UMP said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Even if my wife felt such and such regarding my postponement of sex, it does not matter. What does matter is that I CLEARLY showed that I did not NEED to have sex. Whatever negative she perceives will be wiped out after we have sex because *she will have a roaring orgasm* and will clearly see mine as well.
> 
> All set back to zero.


If THAT works for you two, then great! As for me, I have a similar dynamic. It is not so much that I need to demonstrate that I do not "need sex" and that I can remain loving if my wife tells me that it is not a good time... What is more important is that I no longer feel the need to make sure my wife has a roaring orgasm in order to feel that sex was mutually satisfying. She can have as many as she wants, or she can have none at all, and afterwards I am happy. I actually find myself more happy when she does not have one, because I now appreciate that she cares about my desire for her and that she is willing to nurture that. 

In our relationship she now enjoys sex when SHE wants to enjoy sex. Knowing that I am more than willing to oblige, she now has the confidence to ask for what she wants when she wants it! That has been a very exciting thing for me to experience, but I never know when it will happen. I just turn around at my desk to find her standing behind me and she shoves my face in her boobs, and then drags me smiling to the bedroom!

Badsanta


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## NothingsOriginal (Sep 23, 2016)

My trick is to give up the opportunity for sex, but replace it with some other form of intimacy. A massage, an intimate dinner by candlelight cooked (mostly) by me from scratch, preparing her a bubble bath and just sitting in a chair next to her as she soaks.

I don't "need" sex. But I crave intimacy. I learned this here on TAM


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

UMP said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Even if my wife felt such and such regarding my postponement of sex, it does not matter. What does matter is that I CLEARLY showed that *I did not NEED to have sex*. Whatever negative she perceives will be wiped out after we have sex because she will have a roaring orgasm and will clearly see mine as well.
> 
> All set back to zero.


I am so glad you came to this realization, UMP. More and more men and women are reporting similar "lightbulb moments" these days regarding sex. It actually _surprises_ (mostly) men once they reach this realization. 

But once they DO come to that realization, they also realize how much _pressure_ they've been putting on themselves AND their spouse/partner. Once they remove that pressure, they have reported having a _better_ relationship all around, and that when they DO have sex, it is _quality_ sex. 

Sexual neediness is never pretty. In fact, it's a huge turn-off. 

I really wish more people would get to this point.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> The more you *need* sex from your wife, the less she will want to give it freely. The more you don't *need* sex from your wife, the more she will want to give it freely.:


Not universally true. If the partner cares, true, but not in all cases. 

The premise is also incompatible with the idea of a serious relationship. One does not "give" sex to their spouse any more than they "give" them money if they're not working. It's a shared experience.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

UMP said:


> The more you *need* sex from your wife, the less she will want to give it freely. The more you don't *need* sex from your wife, the more she will want to give it freely.





john117 said:


> Not universally true. If the partner cares, true, but not in all cases.
> 
> The premise is also incompatible with the idea of a serious relationship. One does not "give" sex to their spouse any more than they "give" them money if they're not working. It's a shared experience.


I'm going to agree with @john117 on this one as at many times in my marriage I adjusted my behaviors so that I no longer *needed* sex hardly any, and the only impact it would have is that I would find my wife thinking that I no longer desired her. So I experienced a damned if you do (she feels used) and damned if you don't (she feels undesired) scenario.

So for young grasshopper wanting to believe you must go up to get down or down to get up, you are setting many poor souls up for a world of hurt. 

Badsanta


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Not universally true. If the partner cares, true, but not in all cases.
> 
> The premise is also incompatible with the idea of a serious relationship. One does not "give" sex to their spouse any more than they "give" them money if they're not working. It's a shared experience.


If a spouse doesn't "give" sex to a partner, then I suppose that a spouse also doesn't "need" it _FROM_ a partner. 

Right...?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> If a spouse doesn't "give" sex to a partner, then I suppose that a spouse also doesn't "need" it _FROM_ a partner.
> 
> Right...?


Is it ok to need non sexual intimacy with your partner? Notice I say with, not from .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Is it ok to need non sexual intimacy with your partner? Notice I say with, not from .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Need", no.

"Want", YES!!

Too often, people can turn 'want' into 'need' and 'need' into _greed_.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> "Need", no.
> 
> "Want", YES!!
> 
> Too often, people can turn 'want' into 'need' and 'need' into _greed_.


I get that, but at some point the number of unmet "wants" can spell death to a relationship. So in that regard, couldn't you say that it's a need for the relationship to remain intact?

If my wife "wants" me to treat her with respect and love, but I don't deliver on that and she leaves me, isn't that really because she needed respect and love in the context of the relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> I get that, but at some point the number of unmet "wants" can spell death to a relationship. So in that regard, couldn't you say that it's a need for the relationship to remain intact?
> 
> If my wife "wants" me to treat her with respect and love, but I don't deliver on that and she leaves me, isn't that really because she needed respect and love in the context of the relationship?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wants and needs are primarily OK when they work the way the lyrics do in the Cheap Trick song.

_I want you to want me
I need you to need me
I'm begging you to beg me_

Otherwise it just comes across annoying and as harassment. We all ask ourselves how do we get someone to want us? Some understand the dynamics of marketing themselves confidently in a relationship, while others put themselves on clearance and just get pissed of about sitting unused on the shelf.

As for me, I used to work in sales, so I know what it takes to get an eskimo all excited about ice cubes... But wait, there is more!










Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> If a spouse doesn't "give" sex to a partner, then I suppose that a spouse also doesn't "need" it _FROM_ a partner.
> 
> Right...?



If you're not interested in sex but play along for the sake of your partner, that's "give". It's ok but not as the main mode of intimacy. 

If you "need" but don't "give" for some reason or another that's a different problem as well


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## bilbag (Aug 3, 2016)

So previously you would have been upset if you had sex 102 times a year instead of 104? But now since you are not needy you can handle missing two sessions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

"starfish sex"??? is that a thing?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> Not universally true. If the partner cares, true, but not in all cases.
> 
> The premise is also incompatible with the idea of a serious relationship. One does not "give" sex to their spouse any more than they "give" them money if they're not working. It's a shared experience.


I will agree with your first point but disagree on your second.

I believe my wife and I have a "serious" relationship. 25 years together, basically my best friend and have gone through many ups and downs. Sex may be a shared experience in principle but in practice it's very different. There are so many hidden and mostly misunderstood emotions and agendas behind the scenes. In time these emotions and life desires come and go.

The fact of the matter is, sex is something that can be declined by either spouse. Neither one of us is the slave to the other. In an ideal perfect world and relationship I would agree with you that sex should be a perfectly symbiotic and shared experience. However, from my 25 year experience with it, it's more like a political race for power.

Don't worry, I'm a benevolent king. :grin2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Doesn't have to be perfect, but the notion of "give" often leads to a very slippery slope I feel. 

If it becomes a race for power, the game is lost altogether. Women have used sex for power since time immemorial, and it takes some effort to resist the sirens call. Can't say I blame them, given how men have acted in general since time immemorial  but this isn't Little House On The Prairie.


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## NothingsOriginal (Sep 23, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> "starfish sex"??? is that a thing?


Starfish just lay there during mating. No visible movement, no sound, no nothing. Yes it is a thing.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Is it ok to need non sexual intimacy with your partner? Notice I say with, not from .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a great question.
I originally thought that this was OK. However, I got to a point when I would say to myself "I've said I love you X number of times and she has only said it Y number of times." "She has not touched me today" etc. etc.

If I ever brought this up to my wife it turned out to be a massive negative.

I got rid of all this by making myself not "need" non sexual intimacy. I stopped the constant "I love you" and touching for touching sake and it has increased her attraction for me.

This may be a reflection on JUST my wife. You're mileage may vary.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I'm going to agree with @john117 on this one as at many times in my marriage I adjusted my behaviors so that I no longer *needed* sex hardly any, and the only impact it would have is that I would find my wife thinking that I no longer desired her. So I experienced a damned if you do (she feels used) and damned if you don't (she feels undesired) scenario.
> 
> So for young grasshopper wanting to believe you must go up to get down or down to get up, you are setting many poor souls up for a world of hurt.
> 
> Badsanta


You forget that all women are black belts in reading your REAL emotions and associated intentions. Never underestimate the strength of your much better looking and crafty opponent.
Unless the non neediness you portray is REAL and from the heart, you're screwed.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

bilbag said:


> So previously you would have been upset if you had sex 102 times a year instead of 104? But now since you are not needy you can handle missing two sessions?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Touche 

More like:

Previously I was upset at having shiiity starfish sex 102 times a year.
But now since I am not needy and confident I can handle missing two sessions because the sex is so friggen good I can't even remember a time that is was better. Missing two sessions of what I get is like crashing your uninsured Lamborghini when you've got 5 paid for Ferraris in the garage. It's a non issue.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> If it becomes a race for power, the game is lost altogether.


I disagree.

It depends how you use this power. As I stated before I believe I am a benevolent king.

Before, I was a needy servant. Women hate needy servants as husbands but admire and respect benevolent kings.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

UMP said:


> Touche
> 
> More like:
> 
> ...


When your wife was providing shiiity sex and you were a lousy lover being non-needy would not have made a difference. I say again, your observation is perhaps interesting but is meaningless in the grand scheme of things . :sleeping:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

anonmd said:


> When your wife was providing shiiity sex and you were a lousy lover being non-needy would not have made a difference. I say again, your observation is perhaps interesting but is meaningless in the grand scheme of things . :sleeping:


In my first post I mention a combination of factors involved.

As you reference, being non - needy in and of itself without the benefit of being a good lover is meaningless. However, combine the non-neediness with better developed sexual skills along with confidence, control of anger, loss of weight, etc. etc. you end up with something very meaningful. 

It's a long involved process. It takes time. It's taken me over 4 years.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> I disagree.
> 
> It depends how you use this power. As I stated before I believe I am a benevolent king.
> 
> Before, I was a needy servant. Women hate needy servants as husbands but admire and respect benevolent kings.


I was referring to women's use of sex for power, not men's.

If a woman has no innate use for sex, not an uncommon issue, you can rule or serve all you want and it won't change the dynamic. You can get them to agree to have sex, even enjoy the process, but desire can't be readily manufactured.

Also, never forget the power of self preservation neurons. They're pretty good in manufacturing desire.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> I was referring to women's use of sex for power, not men's.
> 
> If a woman has no innate use for sex, not an uncommon issue, you can rule or serve all you want and it won't change the dynamic. You can get them to agree to have sex, even enjoy the process, but desire can't be readily manufactured.
> 
> Also, never forget the power of self preservation neurons. They're pretty good in manufacturing desire.


Well, 
That's what I thought too. In fact, that was my reality.
If the quality of what the man has to offer in this specific scenario is not exciting and valuable to the woman, I must agree with you.

However, if you can somehow change the quality or the substance of what you are offering so that it indeed becomes attractive and desirable to the women, now you've got something with traction.

Is that possible in all situations? Probably not. I did not think it was possible in my own situation, but I tried anyway and it has worked.

There are many ways to skin a cat. The key is to figure out which one works for your wife. It may not be exactly what you imagined, but if it can produce desire and attraction from your wife, you'll still enjoy it.

I know you and I don't see eye to eye on this. I believe it is possible to create desire in the deadest of dead. You don't. However, I must be fair. I only did one experiment, I only have one wife.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@UMP I believe you are doing a great job overall and have come so far from where you began it is truly remarkable...and I know your wife is happier, too.

But I also agree with john....if sex is a power play, then eventually things break down. 

I know it is not exactly a power play with you and your wife anymore, but you still have that residual feeling about it.

I also understand how this happens...almost every man (and woman) learns that "men are always trying to 'get sex' from women and women are always trying to sort out who to 'give sex' to and who not 'give it' to" as we are coming of age. This is very unfortunate, IMO. It sets the stage for the power play you speak of.

If the power play can be done as a game and an act, then it can be very fun. But when it is truly a power play, it is a problem on both sides. Women don't want this "power". We want to feel sexual and sexy and have sex. But most of us have grown up without the skills necessary to own those qualities in ourselves and therefore, we don't know how to own our need and desires. So we play the game, too.

I am not necessarily speaking for myself here, as I kind of went through all of this differently than most women. I do own my sexuality and I do want sex and I want it with someone who also wants it with me....with no power play involved at all (unless it is a kinky game). I would not want to have sex with someone who felt I had to "give it" to them. Nor would I want it with someone who I felt had to "give it" to me. It is either something we mutually desire, or it is not. I know I cannot really express to you how much different this dynamic is compared to the power dynamic you speak of, but maybe if just for a thought experiment, you could go for the next week or so and try to think new thoughts about this....

Try to erase anything thought about her "giving you" sex as soon as you have a thought like that, and then replace it with the thought of you and your wife making love, or f*cking like bunnies. The bunnies are not having a power play. They both want it. They both sidle up and get theirs. No one is "asking" the other for sex, they are both ready for it and they go for it. The female is not coyly pretending to hold all the sexual strings and handing them to the male only when he has pleased her emotionally. Nope. She is backing her rump up to him saying "hop on and let's go for a ride, Thumper".

If you would play a little search and destroy mission in your mind of the thoughts that are of the old power dynamic and replace them with the thoughts of you and your wife both being over powered by your own bodies, your lust, and your desires for each other...rather than one of you being "in power" by holding the purse strings of your sex life....and just keep at this thought exercise for awhile, you might come to feel the sensation I am talking about.

You once described your wife as forever being an easily spooked little fillie but that you were perfectly happy to chase her endlessly and catch her when you can. I get that, I really do. And that attitude in itself is not necessarily the power dynamic that is a problem. In fact, what you are describing this way is simply the natural pursuit that occurs in male-female dynamics. It is not the "power" dynamic, though. The fillie knows you are going to catch her and she delights in it. While the "one in power" is more like, not necessarily happy if she "gives it up". See the difference?

It is very subtle. But if you can get a glimpse of it, you will change forever. It is essentially what you originally posted about on this thread. It is the non-needy part of sex. It is the knowing that you are two adult mammals and adult mammals HAVE SEX....one doesn't "give sex" to the other.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

UMP said:


> The more you *need* sex from your wife, the less she will want to give it freely. The more you don't *need* sex from your wife, the more she will want to give it freely.


That sure makes women sound like sh!tty people


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP, if one is a vegan, no matter how good the steak is, they won't eat it. Not everyone is like this but at our age you got to wonder.

Unless they have no other option that is as palatable.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> @UMP I believe you are doing a great job overall and have come so far from where you began it is truly remarkable...and I know your wife is happier, too.
> 
> But I also agree with john....if sex is a power play, then eventually things break down.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying and I agree with you.

Maybe I'm not being clear about my latter point about power.
It's not necessarily about sex alone, it's the whole package. When a man is needy regarding sex, it's not just about the sex it's about his entire being. He wants sex to make him feel better about being who or what he is. It is salve to his wounded soul.

Women don't like weak wounded men for sex. In other words, there is a MUCH bigger dynamic going on here that is much more than just sex. 

If I am confident in myself, in who I am and what I am, confident in what I have to offer my wife both sexually and otherwise, I will NOT be needy.

If all that other stuff is messed up I will be needy and my wife will not want me.

Getting the power I am talking about is not to attain power for power sake. It's about becoming the man that naturally garners respect and power because that's who he has become. He does not need to chase for power, he has it, naturally.

That's the ticket.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> UMP, if one is a vegan, no matter how good the steak is, they won't eat it. Not everyone is like this but at our age you got to wonder.
> 
> Unless they have no other option that is as palatable.


That's where you and I differ. I believe in the impossible.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> That sure makes women sound like sh!tty people


No, they are just different than we are.

Thank GOD for that!

We as men just need a lifetime to figure them out. Worth every minute, IMO.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

NothingsOriginal said:


> Starfish just lay there during mating. No visible movement, no sound, no nothing. Yes it is a thing.


wow, I was way off in left field! I was envisioning something between Japanese tentacle porn, and somehow getting 5 different arms on my junk! lol


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

UMP said:


> I will agree with your first point but disagree on your second.
> 
> Sex may be a shared experience in principle but in practice it's very different. There are so many hidden and mostly misunderstood emotions and agendas behind the scenes. In time these emotions and life desires come and go.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, sex is something that can be declined by either spouse. Neither one of us is the slave to the other.


Every time you've posted on this thread, you've written SOMETHING that causes me to shout at the computer,"Yes! Yes! YES!!! He's a man who FINALLY gets it!" :laugh:

My late husband once told me that it wasn't "fair" that if I declined sex, he couldn't do anything about it. He told me that *I* had more *power* than he did. I reminded him that HE had the same *power* as ME to decline sex. He then looked at me like I had two heads. 

When it comes to sex, we have 2 choices:
1. Have sex
2. DON'T have sex (yes, I'm including masturbation as 'not having sex', because I see sex as involving at least 2 people)

When it comes to sex, BOTH genders have the same exact choices. Being horny does NOT mean that one MUST have sex in order to get that physical relief. They can masturbate or even distract themselves. 

The point is, that because we can _choose_ to have sex or not have sex, I don't see sex as a "need", but a "want". 

My late husband wanted sex constantly. But his reasons for wanting it so often had little to do with love. For him, it was about him feeling powerful, feeling "in control", feeling superior and feeling like he was a "man". 

It never occurred to him that I was having sex with him because *I* WANTED to and not because HE wanted ME to.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Vega said:


> Every time you've posted on this thread, you've written SOMETHING that causes me to shout at the computer,"Yes! Yes! YES!!! He's a man who FINALLY gets it!" :laugh:
> 
> My late husband once told me that it wasn't "fair" that if I declined sex, he couldn't do anything about it. He told me that *I* had more *power* than he did. I reminded him that HE had the same *power* as ME to decline sex. He then looked at me like I had two heads.
> 
> ...


I believe as men age we begin to need sex for validation.

It is difficult getting older, slower and uglier. Everything in the world can go to pot but you say to yourself "my wife still wants me." When even that goes to shiit you start to panic, which is the worst thing you can do. Needing sex from your wife for validation is a major turn off for women. 

I did not know this and I do not think most men know it. The problem is that the desire is similar to a drug addicts need for heroin. It's one of the hardest things I have had to do. I spent hours and hours and hours pacing in my man cave trying to rid myself of my neediness.

This past Friday my wife was still sick and I just assumed she did not want to have sex again. As it turns out, she got mad at me for not initiating. I asked her, when I could see she was upset: "you did not want to have sex tonight, did you?" To which she replied "YES I DO!" I still postponed to the next day and we had great sex while she was coughing. She even had an orgasm. What a CHANGE!!

The other thing I just realized the other day is that a husband should let his wife get upset. She needs to be able to get upset for whatever reason and know that her husband will not be angry just because she is angry. The sexiest thing I can do for my wife is to let her be upset for any stupid reason she chooses (it does not matter unless it is overtly disrespectful). If a man can look at his wife who is angry and smile as if it does absolutely nothing to him, she will eventually want to jump his bones.

IMO Women LOVE great emotional strength in a man. A man who does not show his neediness for sex and can let his wife be angry without retaliating WILL eventually have great sex with her. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

UMP said:


> I believe as men age we begin to need sex for validation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My wife needs calm from me. Even when she provokes me to behave otherwise. And especially when she is not calm herself. Otherwise, I'm not in control. Apparently, me being out of control is akin to ****ting the bed. Ain't no sex happening in a ****ty bed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

rich84 said:


> My wife needs calm from me. Even when she provokes me to behave otherwise. And especially when she is not calm herself. Otherwise, I'm not in control. Apparently, me being out of control is akin to ****ting the bed. Ain't no sex happening in a ****ty bed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


EXACTLY! 
You're not allowed to be provoked. A man must never be provoked to anger unless it's to protect his family. Oh well, no body said marriage was going to be easy. More like the hardest thing you've ever had to do in your life.:grin2:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

H2 is the same. She needs me to be calm and non-reactive. Now that we have given up on sex entirely, much easier for me to be that way. Not as much at stake in our relationship, so no reason to get upset at anything she says or does. And yes, I realize that indicates I mostly wanted her for sex. Well, duh!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> H2 is the same. She needs me to be calm and non-reactive. Now that we have given up on sex entirely, much easier for me to be that way. Not as much at stake in our relationship, so no reason to get upset at anything she says or does. And yes, I realize that indicates I mostly wanted her for sex. Well, duh!


That's why I like scheduled sex. When it's a Monday and things are not going well, I can take it in stride because I know sex is not going to happen until Tuesday. Let's just say that Tuesdays and Fridays I'm a bit more pleasant to deal with.>


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I don't think it is the schedule, exactly. I think the schedule is the manner in which your wife finds it acceptable to provide sex on a regular basis. And I think it is the regular sex that helps you remain calm in the face of her emotional storms. The key is that her getting upset does not cause the sex to disappear. Which is what would trigger you to get upset when she gets upset.

If her getting upset on Monday regularly caused the Tuesday session to be cancelled, or her to lie there only providing starfish sex (because she "has" to), I don't think you would be as impassive. To me, the "trick" here is that she has somehow found a way to be upset on Monday night or Tuesday morning but still be GGG with you on Tuesday night. THAT is what enables you to relax. If she can "bounce back" from being upset "because it is Tuesday" then she could bounce back any time because you are her husband and she loves you and she wants both of you to be happy. THAT is the key. Her realization that sharing sex with you on a regular basis is more important than whatever triviality she was upset about yesterday or this morning. That is the precious truth that too many spouses overlook. Is sex that important? Yes, if it is that important to your spouse, then if you want a happy marriage, it has to be that important to you too.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I don't think it is the schedule, exactly. I think the schedule is the manner in which your wife finds it acceptable to provide sex on a regular basis. And I think it is the regular sex that helps you remain calm in the face of her emotional storms. The key is that her getting upset does not cause the sex to disappear. Which is what would trigger you to get upset when she gets upset.
> 
> If her getting upset on Monday regularly caused the Tuesday session to be cancelled, or her to lie there only providing starfish sex (because she "has" to), I don't think you would be as impassive. To me, the "trick" here is that she has somehow found a way to be upset on Monday night or Tuesday morning but still be GGG with you on Tuesday night. THAT is what enables you to relax. If she can "bounce back" from being upset "because it is Tuesday" then she could bounce back any time because you are her husband and she loves you and she wants both of you to be happy. THAT is the key. Her realization that sharing sex with you on a regular basis is more important than whatever triviality she was upset about yesterday or this morning. That is the precious truth that too many spouses overlook. Is sex that important? Yes, if it is that important to your spouse, then if you want a happy marriage, it has to be that important to you too.


GREAT post!
I agree completely.

She did tell me years ago that she could not take my anger and emotional ups and downs anymore.
I did tell her that I wanted "real" sex at least twice a week.
We both did our part. She gave me the sex and I took away the anger. Win-win.

However, it makes me wonder what I would be like if my wife were unable to have sex. I still think you're the strongest person on this forum.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

UMP said:


> However, it makes me wonder what I would be like if my wife were unable to have sex. I still think you're the strongest person on this forum.


No, just one of the more damaged and weak enough to turn to the dark side rather than fighting for truth and goodness. I now get my affirmation from negative outcomes rather than positive ones. Not anything to be proud of.

Darth Vader was arguably the strongest Jedi for decades while he was defending the Emperor and killing all the remaining Jedi. Being strong in the service of evil is not admirable.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> No, just one of the more damaged and weak enough to turn to the dark side rather than fighting for truth and goodness. I now get my affirmation from negative outcomes rather than positive ones. Not anything to be proud of.
> 
> Darth Vader was arguably the strongest Jedi for decades while he was defending the Emperor and killing all the remaining Jedi. Being strong in the service of evil is not admirable.


It's not evil, you're just dealing with the cards you've been dealt.
Yes, I would have picked a different way which would have meant leaving my wife.
You, on the other hand have chosen to stay with her, even in sickness.
Nothing "evil" about that.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@UMP: One more swipe at the dead horse.

You are the strong one. You hit the gym and explored meds to help you perform better so you could make sex better for your wife. You were brave and made yourself vulnerable and invested time and effort and brought the petrified log back to life. You are the admirable one here.

I am weak and fearful. I have abdicated my responsibility as a husband. I assume I will never be able to please my wife. I assume I will fail if I try. So I don't try. I save myself from the humiliation of performing poorly by not having sex at all, even when my wife is willing. I quit on her. And on myself. I gave in to my fear. That is not strength. That is weakness. And you will never convince me otherwise.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> @UMP: One more swipe at the dead horse.
> 
> You are the strong one. You hit the gym and explored meds to help you perform better so you could make sex better for your wife. You were brave and made yourself vulnerable and invested time and effort and brought the petrified log back to life. You are the admirable one here.
> 
> I am weak and fearful. I have abdicated my responsibility as a husband. I assume I will never be able to please my wife. I assume I will fail if I try. So I don't try. I save myself from the humiliation of performing poorly by not having sex at all, even when my wife is willing. I quit on her. And on myself. I gave in to my fear. That is not strength. That is weakness. And you will never convince me otherwise.


Now you changed the subject. You originally said you were evil. Now you say you are weak. Big difference between evil and weakness.

We are all weak, including myself. 

Staying with your sick, LD wife is NOT evil, it's admirable regardless of how you got there. You are pleasing your wife, you are the husband. Maybe sex for you consists of holding hands. So be it. She beat you into the ground and you're still there. Still taking care of her and still by her side. 

End of story.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

peacem said:


> Good post UMP. Sex is great validation that you are loved and lovable. However in the past I think I have confused sexual desire with a need to be needed. Not needing that external validation is something I believe we all have struggled with at some point in our lives but it is well worth the effort of getting there. There is hope indeed!


This struck a chord with me, as it's not something I ever logically considered about myself. I have some work to do.

I don't consider myself a generally needy person, as a whole. But when it comes to sex, I can clearly see that I am. When I stop and think about it, I think I desire validation from my wife, more than sex with her. As she's responsive desire, it never comes to me, so to speak. It's something I have to go and get. And for that relatively brief, 15, 20 minutes a week, I get that validation - even though it's technically false. I sought it out, it wasn't given to me. It's the equivalent of fishing for compliments.

Over the past few years, I've consciously tried to divert my brain away from this, with varying degrees of success for short periods of time. There have been times where I've consciously decided "I'm not going to initiate" on days where it would otherwise have been an expectation (for both of us) to do so. Then I inevitably fall back into the same-old, same-old.

The sad thing is, I'm quite certain my wife would respond in some way if I maintained this for a certain period of time. I think to her, it's become such an expectation that I want it and will seek it out, that I will simply continue to do so.

Like UMP said in the OP, it was hard for him to resist this urge to be needy, and I know that first-hand. I suppose the real trick is to not make it seem like it's being done on purpose, out of spite or anger, or that you're trying to prove a point. Tough to do.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> This struck a chord with me, as it's not something I ever logically considered about myself. I have some work to do.
> 
> I don't consider myself a generally needy person, as a whole. But when it comes to sex, I can clearly see that I am. When I stop and think about it, I think I desire validation from my wife, more than sex with her. As she's responsive desire, it never comes to me, so to speak. It's something I have to go and get. And for that relatively brief, 15, 20 minutes a week, I get that validation - even though it's technically false. I sought it out, it wasn't given to me. It's the equivalent of fishing for compliments.
> 
> ...


The one thing that really helped me out was scheduling sex AHEAD of time. I concluded that the minimum frequency that I would be happy with was twice per week. My wife agreed to this and now every Tuesday and Friday we have sex. What this does is completely take away my neediness. If it's a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday or Sunday I KNOW with 99.9% certainty that sex is NOT going to happen, therefore the neediness just disappears. Maybe at first it's difficult, but your body gets used to a routine.

When Tuesday and Friday arrive I simply go on as if sex is 100% certain. No initiation necessary, no guessing, no wondering, no neediness.

Try it out. I think it might work wonders for you.

BTW: My wife is nearly 100% responsive desire. She sometimes starts sucking on me while she is talking about something COMPLETLEY unrelated and NON sexy.
No matter, in a matter of minutes I can get her moaning.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

UMP said:


> The other thing I just realized the other day is that a husband should let his wife get upset. She needs to be able to get upset for whatever reason and know that her husband will not be angry just because she is angry. The sexiest thing I can do for my wife is to let her be upset for any stupid reason she chooses (it does not matter unless it is overtly disrespectful). If a man can look at his wife who is angry and smile as if it does absolutely nothing to him, she will eventually want to jump his bones.
> 
> IMO Women LOVE great emotional strength in a man. A man who does not show his neediness for sex and can let his wife be angry without retaliating WILL eventually have great sex with her.


Thanks but no thanks. I'm not going to put up with irrational and possibly abusive behavior in order to get laid. And I think it's a little insulting (to both genders) to hold women to a lower standard of behavior than men.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> Thanks but no thanks. I'm not going to put up with irrational and possibly abusive behavior in order to get laid. And I think it's a little insulting (to both genders) to hold women to a lower standard of behavior than men.


Where in the world did I mention "irrational and abusive behavior?" I even qualified it with the word "disrespectful" as being the limit.

"Lower standard" ???? "Little Insulting" to both genders ???? You MUST be joking.

If I allow my wife to get upset without retaliation I am holding to a higher standard. To err is human, to forgive is divine. Certainly no "lower standard" or "insult" there.

Love covers a multitude of errors and I might add will get you laid more and better than shining a spotlight on those errors, especially considering that regardless of gender, no one is perfect.

Although, maybe you are.

IMO: all these non idyllic episodes are simply tests to see what kind of man you're made of. Getting angry at that is simply shooting oneself in the foot. Trust me on this, I've learned the hard way.

The "red" pill is fine, but if you want to digest it, you need to chase it with a touch of reason.

Proceed as you wish.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

UMP said:


> The other thing I just realized the other day is that a husband should let his wife get upset. She needs to be able to get upset for whatever reason and know that her husband will not be angry just because she is angry. The sexiest thing I can do for my wife is to let her be upset for any stupid reason she chooses (it does not matter unless it is overtly disrespectful). If a man can look at his wife who is angry and smile as if it does absolutely nothing to him, she will eventually want to jump his bones.
> 
> IMO Women LOVE great emotional strength in a man. A man who does not show his neediness for sex and can let his wife be angry without retaliating WILL eventually have great sex with her.
> 
> That's my story and I'm sticking to it!




@jld would probably agree with this, I think.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> @jld would probably agree with this, I think.


Let me be specific on what I am saying, so there is no confusion.

I am talking about simple life issues. The LAST thing any husband should want is his wife to tip toe around him worried about setting off his angry disposition. 

Let's say my wife had a bad day and was snubbed by her sister when she came in town. She NEEDS to let off some steam and be a bit angry. That's ok and is a + 1 for the man that listens and sympathizes.

Let's say my wife throws in a little nag about me smoking my ecig in front of her sister because she thinks it's a bit uncouth. Who cares? I just smile and not let it bother me.

Let's say she's upset at me because I'm totally fine with my oldest being away at college and she broods and complains about how she feels. No problem.

Let's say my wife makes a snide remark about me not cleaning up my clothes off the dresser. Should I get upset? Nope. If I just smile, she later realizes maybe she was a bit nasty and ends up being nice as pie the rest of the day.

Let's say she's having a bad period and those hormones are making her a bit cranky. Who cares. Give her some space.

I have learned that every single time I turn the other cheek, it comes back to me tenfold. Every time I fight back on silly things, it always comes back to bite me. Marriage is difficult enough, why make it harder than it has to be?

In the 25 years I have been married I honestly believe my wife has never purposely disrespected me.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Okay, fine.

It just reminds me of jld's signature statement; that's all.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Okay, fine.
> 
> It just reminds me of jld's signature statement; that's all.


Yes, agree.

Where the hell has she been anyway?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> The one thing that really helped me out was scheduling sex AHEAD of time. I concluded that the minimum frequency that I would be happy with was twice per week. My wife agreed to this and now every Tuesday and Friday we have sex. What this does is completely take away my neediness. If it's a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday or Sunday I KNOW with 99.9% certainty that sex is NOT going to happen, therefore the neediness just disappears. Maybe at first it's difficult, but your body gets used to a routine.
> 
> When Tuesday and Friday arrive I simply go on as if sex is 100% certain. No initiation necessary, no guessing, no wondering, no neediness.
> 
> ...


I think you and I have had this convo here in the past! 

I couldn't get on the schedule program because it's not what I'm after. Like I said, it's not the sex I want, it's everything else (the sex is a bonus!). For me, and my situation, scheduling it would - to me - compound what I'm missing.

I fully admit that I am needy in that way. I believe most of us are. Not to the point of begging or grovelling, but it's most definitely something I know I require. I want my wife to _want_ me, in a similar way that I do her. What I want is a normalcy to each of our sex drives. I want it, she wants it, sometimes we both want it at the same time. What it is, as said above, is validation. Validation of my sexuality, as a man, as an object of desire in _that_ way, among other things.

What scheduled sex would do, quite frankly, is compound those feelings 10-fold. It would become a, I don't want to say "chore", but... along those lines.

The thing is, I have never _really_ experienced this type of desire before. When I have, it's been fleeting moments. Now, I'm not an unattractive guy, physically, nor was I when I was younger. Up until my mid-teens, I couldn't be bothered with girls. I matured physically faster than anybody I knew, so it wasn't hormones. It was more priorities. I was a serious athlete, I went to school, and I had jobs. My summer vacations consisted of pursuing my sport of choice, and working. It wasn't until I turned 16 that I discovered beer, cigarettes and girls - I had no experience with girls up until that point. Zero. My first girlfriend an I lasted for 3 years. I was 19 and had only known one girl, found myself single, and had no game. I was also a rather sullen, quiet teenager for no particular reason.

I just never really put myself into positions where women could notice me, or be attracted to me. I know that now. I'm not autistic, but I might as well have been back then. No game, no presence of mind to pick up on signals. Just in my own world. Met my ex wife soon there after, and sex with her was a major mismatch, both physically and emotionally. 14 years with her, and the realization that we were really just great friends hit us both (her first).

Met my now wife, and things seemed great, sexually, until it slowly dawned on me this whole thing about responsive desire. Something that tends to not pop up until well into a serious relationship. So whatever desire I felt was happening, turned out to be fake, for lack of a better term. She quite honestly even told me that, not thinking it would have hurt my feelings. Turns out she had always been responsive desire, but just didn't know what it was. Never in her life had she been sexually attracted to somebody. Sex was just what you did when you were with somebody. Now, she LIKES sex, truly (she says this herself), she just has no desire for it, whatsoever. She's gone periods of 18-24 months without sex before me, and it didn't bother her in the least. She understands she's 'different', and she figured that out when she was 14 or 15, she says. When all her friends were boy-crazy, and 'this guy is so hot' and all that - she didn't get it. She even went through a period of about a year, when she was single and 18 or so, where she hooked up with a number of guys casually. Not in the 'experimental' way most people do around that age, but more because she knew she was different, and tried to, I guess, spark that desire. Didn't work, obviously.

All that to say, I'm now in my early-40's, and do not generally know what it feels like to be sexually desired by somebody - or at least somebody I can be with. Over the course of this marriage and my previous one, I have had several women say to me things like "if you weren't married..." or "too bad you're married", that sort of thing. But it's not my wife (or my ex wife, or ex girlfriend(s) ) saying that to me, and that's what I want - the person I love, and who loves me back, to desire me.

So yeah, scheduled sex, while perfectly fine for some, would not do a darn thing for me, unfortunately.

Besides, ironically enough, Saturday night is "sex night". It's not _planned_, and it doesn't always happen, but nonetheless, it's an expectation, for both of us. Sigh.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

UMP said:


> Yes, agree.
> 
> Where the hell has she been anyway?


Busy with my family. 

Totally agree it builds trust, at least imo, when a man does not react emotionally to a woman. When he does not take her emotions personally, but genuinely seeks to understand her pov, he starts to earn her trust.

And it probably works the same way in reverse. If the female is the dominant in the relationship, and does not take the man's emotions personally, but sees past them to what is really bothering him, he can relax and start to trust in her emotional strength.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> I think you and I have had this convo here in the past!
> 
> I couldn't get on the schedule program because it's not what I'm after. Like I said, it's not the sex I want, it's everything else (the sex is a bonus!). For me, and my situation, scheduling it would - to me - compound what I'm missing.
> 
> ...


I don't think my wife is as responsive desire as yours but similar. The "I want you" only happens while we are having sex. Actually happens about mid way through. I learned to just accept that and go with it.

The way I figure is if I can see she REALLY wants me sexually, even if it's only for a few minutes, if it's genuine, I'll take what I can get and be satisfied with that.

Sure, I would love my wife to come chasing me, grope me, send me sexy texts and bust our sex schedule up because she just can't wait. I wish my first daughter wasn't mentally handicapped either. However, just like with my daughter, I learned to accept the cards I have in my hands, yet play them in a way that maximizes their abilities.

For example, my wife hates talking about sex in any way shape or form. I had to accept this. As it turns out, not even inferring to sex except for the 2 evenings a week, and only then when we actually start having sex, is fun. It increases the anticipation. She likes new things but I cannot talk about it ahead of time. I must implement on the go. In a strange weird way, it ends up being exciting. 

Another example is my daughter. She is 22 years old, yet still has the functioning mind of a 5 year old. However, every now and again she will say something so wise, so insightful that it gets you thinking. "Wow", she really does have an interesting mind, even though it's not what I would have initially ask for.

I have genuinely learned to love and enjoy sex with my wife JUST the way she is.
I also pray every single day that God give me more "lust" for my wife and I pray that she "lust" 'after me more and more, every day.

Your validation must come from within your soul. The world will let you down, no matter what. Once that validation is solid, you might be surprised how "sexy" your wife might find you, even if it's just for a few minutes.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> You think you would; but maybe not.
> 
> Have you ever considered that part of the reason that you are so crazy about your wife; and want her sexually more and more----is that she is elusive. You can never quite get all you want. In a sense, she is always a bit out of reach. Kind of intoxicating and fascinating.
> 
> ...


That is very insightful! Great point. However, I would be more than willing to try it out and see for myself.>


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

notmyrealname4 said:


> You think you would; but maybe not.
> 
> Have you ever considered that part of the reason that you are so crazy about your wife; and want her sexually more and more----is that she is elusive. You can never quite get all you want. In a sense, she is always a bit out of reach. Kind of intoxicating and fascinating.
> 
> ...


Those are excellent points, and very logical 

I think, for me, and possibly for UMP, it's more that our wives do not even _talk_ about sex, never mind desire it. Frankly, I am quite fine with my current once-a-week (occasionally twice). It's not a chore, it's not starfish sex, she's right into it 99% of the time, blah blah blah.

So from my POV, my sexuality is, essentially, removed and non-existent for 7 days minus 20 minutes. I have no outlet with the sole person I should be able to share my sexuality with. I don't want to HAVE sex every day, but I do want to be allowed to be a sexual person. To talk, joke, flirt, touch, or otherwise not be made to feel like I'm crossing some crazy boundary that I'm not even sure really exists. I'm not talking 24 hours a day, or even whenever I get the urge. It isn't about me, and me alone. I can't even squeeze her butt or kiss her properly (ie. not just a peck), without her pulling away. If a hug lasts for more than 5 seconds she thinks something's up and ends it. No matter how much I tell her these things aren't (necessarily) going to lead to sex, it doesn't register. There's a line she's created in her mind that she will not cross, unless the planets have aligned and/or it's Saturday night.

So for me and many others, our partners have literally and figuratively separated sex from, basically, anything else even remotely romantic or emotional or intimate. For 6 days, 23 hours and 40 minutes a week, I may as well be her brother, or friend, or room mate, or co-worker. Even when _she_ snuggles with _me_, it lasts no more than a few minutes.


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