# Not so sure Alpha vs Beta matters much in relationships



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I stumbled on to this board a few months ago because I was looking for a way to help a friend who was going through a divorce. He literally gave his wife and family all of himself, and she woke up one day and told him she wasn't attracted to him anymore and that was it. 

After looking at all of the discussion on being Alpha and not being a "nice" guy, I immediately thought that this description sounded like my friend in his relationship. I told him to look into some of the resources on this site so that he could "man up". Well....it hasn't really worked out so good. I now realize that he is who he is. He can't just make himself more Alpha, it almost seems like he is focusing on it too much now instead of just being himself. I almost feel sorry for the next women he dates because she will probably end up paying for the first wife's mistake.

I'm starting to think that a lot of men that believe that their relationship issues are caused by Beta behavior could be incorrect. Perhaps they are in relationships with unappreciative selfish spouses. I say this because when I look around me I see plenty of guys that most on here would classify as Beta in happy marriages with loving spouses (at least it appears this way on the outside). 

A lot of men on here that have experienced infidelity or are in sexless marriages are looking for a solution instead of divorce. I can't fault them for trying a change in attitude. But doesn't it make more sense to assume that your spouse has/is mistreating you because of some issue or flaw that they have instead of because you are showing beta characteristics?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Very well stated.

We should all take a step back and try to keep things simple. If a spouse cheats or refuses intimacy maybe the issue is with them. It makes sense.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> A lot of men on here that have experienced infidelity or are in sexless marriages are looking for a solution instead of divorce. I can't fault them for trying a change in attitude. But doesn't it make more sense to assume that your spouse has/is mistreating you because of some issue or flaw that they have instead of because you are showing beta characteristics?


No, I don't think it does because I don't think it makes sense to assume anything. Self analysis is critical to life. Merely because your spouse is selfish does not relieve you of the duty to clean up your own side of the street.

Nothing is going to prevent cheating if that is what your spouse wants to do. There are things that can lessen the likelihood, but that is about it. It that sense, it is like cancer - while you can do things to reduce your risk, at some point it is out of your control. But that does not mean you stop taking care of yourself.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> No, I don't think it does because I don't think it makes sense to assume anything. Self analysis is critical to life. Merely because your spouse is selfish does not relieve you of the duty to clean up your own side of the street.
> 
> Nothing is going to prevent cheating if that is what your spouse wants to do. There are things that can lessen the likelihood, but that is about it. It that sense, it is like cancer - while you can do things to reduce your risk, at some point it is out of your control. But that does not mean you stop taking care of yourself.


I do agree that self analysis is important if you are obviously the cause of problem, but I'm not so sure we are talking about the same thing. Is behaving more Alpha like really that beneficial if its against your nature? I guess what I am getting at in my post is that a lot of hurt men out there seem to be beating themselves up for not being Alpha enough. I feel like they should free themselves from this line of thought and just find someone who loves them as they are. In other words just be yourself and not have to worry about how Alpha you are being.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

When it comes to a wayward...THEY are the reason for the cheating. THEY are the broken ones.

Can the betrayed make themselves better? Of course. However, the betrayed one, in the end, is never the cause of the infidelity as that lies solely in the broken wayward's heart.

I can carry a gun but that doesn't necessarily mean I won't get mugged or robbed. I might have defense against it...but I can't stop what someone wants to do.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I understand the point that you are trying to make, RH. I hate the alpha-beta stereotype, too. Context is crucial to this issue. What is the dynamic of the marriage? 

Rather than talk about being alpha, I think about this issue as enforcing boundaries. No one should allow their spouse to speak disrespectfully to them. No one should allow their spouse to spend more than they have. No one should carry all of the weight of the relationship. I see it as a distinction between being assertive and being aggressive.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I do agree that self analysis is important if you are obviously the cause of problem, but I'm not so sure we are talking about the same thing. Is behaving more Alpha like really that beneficial if its against your nature? * I guess what I am getting at in my post is that a lot of hurt men out there seem to be beating themselves up for not being Alpha enough.  I feel like they should free themselves from this line of thought and just find someone who loves them as they are. In other words just be yourself and not have to worry about how Alpha you are being.*


And what exactly would prevent them from repeating the exact , same mistake in choosing another woman?
Wash, rinse, repeat?
Quite a lot of betrayed men on this site thought they had found women who had loved them as they are.
What if part of the problem in the relationship, is in _who they are_?
Using your logic, if a man is a doormat and his wife walks all over him, he should continue being a doormat because that_ who he is_.

And who has the final say on who or what a person is ?
Is it not that person himself?
Would you allow anybody to tell you who you are , or do you determine that yourself?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Using your logic, if a man is a doormat and his wife walks all over him, he should continue being a doormat because that who he is.


I certainly don't advocate someone staying in an emotionally abusive relationship. I am just having a hard time seeing the connection between Alpha behavior and avoiding infidelity and the ILYBINILWY speech.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

I think alpha vs beta is too simplistic, which is why I use the 3 roles model.

A married female has 3 roles: wife, mother, and woman.


The wife part of her needs her spouse to be a good husband
The mother part of her needs her spouse to be a good father
The woman part of her needs her spouse to be a man (masculine, not just male)

The problem is society has drummed it into everyone's heads that married males need to focus on 1 and 2 (heck, being a masculine man is even politically incorrect), so that's what married males do. They focus on being good husbands and fathers, and forget about being masculine men.

Unfortunately, they married women, and deep inside every woman is a primal attraction to masculine men (as well as its inverse--a primal feeling of repulsion for non-masculine men). 

This isn't to say women don't appreciate a guy being a great husband and father. Far from it. You can be Mr. super-alpha, but if you are a lousy husband and/or father your wife will probably also dump you.

My points is that married males have to be well rounded, complete individuals--good husbands, good fathers, and masculine men. They (just like females) have three roles to play in marriage, and have to make sure they excel at all three roles.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I certainly don't advocate someone staying in an emotionally abusive relationship. * I am just having a hard time seeing the connection between Alpha behavior and avoiding infidelity and the ILYBINILWY speech.*


In my opinion, there is no connection.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

We live in a society that is increasingly selfish. Many people have lost sight of how good they have it. There is more focus on "me" and what have you done for "me" lately, and less focus on teamwork and support of the spouse you have committed to spend your life with. When one spouse is committed and the other spouse is too worried about what they are getting out of the marriage it will eventually fall apart. It has to be a fully shared experience to be successful


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I certainly don't advocate someone staying in an emotionally abusive relationship. I am just having a hard time seeing the connection between Alpha behavior and avoiding infidelity and the ILYBINILWY speech.


So what do YOU recommend?

BTW., the connection is right there.
But if you can answer my question honestly, then I would show you the connection.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> I certainly don't advocate someone staying in an emotionally abusive relationship. I am just having a hard time seeing the connection between Alpha behavior and avoiding infidelity and the ILYBINILWY speech.


To me, it is about maintaining balance in your life with that goal that it will meet your spouses needs. Most men who come here are out of balance to the beta side - too many of those behaviors that lead to being passive and a doormat. Thus, focusing on some more "alpha" behaviors helps them regain themselves and can help the relationship. But there are folks here (and I am sure elsewhere) who had too many "alpha" behaviors that caused problems, including cheating.

But even if you do everything right and are true to yourself, there is no guarantee. I can do everything possible to meet my wife's needs and avoid behaviors that push her into bad situations and yet I am still powerless to control her. At the end, she is responsible for her choices.

Which is why working on yourself to be the man that you want to be has to be for yourself. Anything else is futile.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

One advantage to saying that you are who you are and cannot make adjustments is that you can put blame completely elsewhere for the things that happen in your life. You can be lazy, naive and ambivalent and pretty much say, hey ... I'm good. This does suit certain personality types. 

However this does not fit all folks for sure. Some folks have the abiltiy to adapt and learn and make decisions in life that improve their chances of success. The problem is that this takes work and accountabiltiy and many folks would rather just not do that.

If your marriage is your #1 priority then you would be more willing to invest effort into it. Many folks are flat just naive and it is not about them trying to be someone they are not. But indeed becoming a better you is I feel a worthy thing to pursue. Working to meet your spouses needs and to maintain their attraction is far from evil.

The other part that this plays is that many guys are way too passive and they are not doing their job in looking out for their spouse. Yes this takes a level of intimacy that many are not prepared to seek out. 

The overwhelming majority of situations one faces when dealing with infidelity is NOT the spouse that just decides I am going to be a cheater. It is when they bond in an EA. The brain chemicals flow. The damage to the marriage happens during the inappropriate times when the people in the budding affair think they are just friends. The damage though is that they are bonding with others and the connection they have with their SO bleeds away. So by the time there may be actual unfaithful behavior and truly bad choices from the marriage perspective their relationship with their spouse is already damaged. This damage was not intentional but a result of naivete and poor boundaries.

Ok so either this is understood or it is not. Some folks just want to believe that if someone wants to cheat they will cheat and I feel they do themselves an incredible disservice because while this applies to some folks it does not apply to most folks and certainly not all folks. That said if someones spouse did just that then they are convinced this applies to all folks. Ok fine. I wish I could help those folks. In time they may have a broader view. BUT what I am saying is that Alpha / Beta aside, some men flat enable affairs and live in utter fear to act. They get called Beta. For good reason.

I think it would be irresponsible to not encourage men who are afraid to not assert their boundaries to not "man-up". To assume they cannot man-up is disengenuous and disrespectful. They come here for help. Saying you cannot adapt must feel like a warm cuddly blanket.

So I am very sorry that some folks just hate the Alpha / Beta stuff. I for one believe knowledge is power. I am a person who believes in self determination. I believe we all can adapt. We are as humans have the capacity to evolve and adapt. Those that cannot or refuse to adapt become cannon fodder. Am I just Alpha? I would argue that I have a very high amount of Beta traits for sure. I am just not passive.

So the example given here is that a marriage had a problem. A guy tried to man-up and it dod not work. As an Engineer I can tell you that only means that it did not work for this guy in this case. But if it only worked 10% of the time then I would say it is valid. I would go on to say that he waited too long. 

I would also go on to say that while there are no garauntees in choosing a spouse that a man needs to know who he is marrying. IF she had a history of being turned on and partying with guys that are very different from you, you have to ask yourself is she settling for the good guy, the stable guy ... Is she trading sexual attraction for other qualities. 

I end as I always do on Alpha / Beta. A quality man has a blend of ttraits. Life is dynamic. Darwinian. If you cannot adapt ... you will perish. YMMV.

If a spouse cheats it is 100% on them. However, if you enable them in a way that nurture EAs you are not doing what is in your marriages best interest.

I imagine some are seeking peace in their hearts and need to know they could not have done anything to rpevent their spouse from cheating. I get it. I feel for you and who knows. But I think that it is NOT just about cheating. Marriages are damaged by EAs and may not even be seen as the root cause of complete unhappiness, sexless marriages or eventual divorce. 

His Needs Her Needs is what I would suggest as required reading if you care about your marriage enough to put in some pro-active effort. It covers boundaries. IF you cannot assert your boundaries then you, for your own benefit may need to do some soul searching as to why you are unable to stand up for yourself. Just giving up seems ... so very sad. Fight or flight.

The biggest thing that holds us back in life is FEAR. Have courage ... let it go.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am just having a hard time seeing the *connection* between Alpha behavior and avoiding infidelity and the ILYBINILWY speech.


At the heart of that connection, were there to be one, we would have to accept that:

... if only the BS had done something (become Alpha/manned up) the infidelity wouldn't have occurred.

I'm not buying that either.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> At the heart of that connection, were there to be one, we would have to accept that:
> 
> ... if only the BS had done something (become Alpha/manned up) the infidelity wouldn't have occurred.
> 
> I'm not buying that either.


And you're DEAD Wrong.
Manning up has absolutely nothing to do with preventing your spouse's infidelity.
Manning up has everything to do with what you are prepared to do _about_ your spouse's infidelity.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Blue Firefly said:


> I think alpha vs beta is too simplistic, which is why I use the 3 roles model.
> 
> A married female has 3 roles: wife, mother, and woman.
> 
> ...


Very nice. This is why I have decided these are my priorities.

1) To be my wifes exclusive lover.
2) To be my wifes best male friend
3) To be my wifes husband

Now they all co-exist but I insist on #1 and will not settle for #2 and #3 without #1.

I married my wife to be in a life long love affair with her and to share my life with her.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> And you're DEAD Wrong.
> Manning up has absolutely nothing to do with preventing your spouse's infidelity.
> Manning up has everything to do with what you are prepared to do _about_ your spouse's infidelity.


I would say that asserting boundaries can prevent EAs from happening or at least catch them early and destroy them. You can view this as dealing with a spouses inappropriate behavior and see it as falling into your last statement.

Too many guys are ok with risky behaviors period. They are afraid to be called jealous, insecure and controlling more than they are about keeping the integrity of their marriage. Now indeed IF the spouse had good personal boundaries this would be less of an issue.

This is becoming more and more of an issue because young wives are under pressure to assert their independence by their peers. So the boundaries can get pushed under the agenda of pushing the envelope. Being a viable independent person is awesome. However too often folks confuse this and in the name of independence they lesson the marriage.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> And you're DEAD Wrong.
> Manning up has absolutely nothing to do with your spouse's infidelity.
> Manning up has everything to do with what you are prepared to do _about_ your spouse's infidelity.


Your talking post-infidelity. I'm talking pre-infidelity. 

I've noticed in most marriages start heading south when there a breakdown in communication. A Beta trait, no?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> Your talking post-infidelity. I'm talking pre-infidelity.
> 
> I've noticed in most marriages start heading south when there a breakdown in communication. A Beta trait, no?


No.

Most marriages start heading south when there is no vision or direction in it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> Your talking post-infidelity. I'm talking pre-infidelity.
> 
> *I've noticed in most marriages start heading south when there a breakdown in communication. A Beta trait, no?*


I would say that what you are saying is NOT a Beta trait per se. It could also be an Alpha trait.

I think this could be a man who has lost his Alpha / Beta balance. 

Communication can suffer for all sorts of reasons. Communication is awesome. Intimacy trumps this however. Intomacy will nurture communication at higher levels. Intimcay interestingly enough takes a blend of traits. On the one hand it is Beta. Oxytocin ( Beta ) is important here. But dopamine ( Alpha ) drives Intimacy to passionate levels. So I want this mixed combination. Not just one or the other with my wife. I deserve it. She deserves it. It is up to me as her husband to seek this in our marriage. It is not up to some other man.

Meeting each others needs is both Beta AND Alpha.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> *Too many guys are ok with risky behaviors period. They are afraid to be called jealous, insecure and controlling more than they are about keeping the integrity of their marriage. *
> .


Right ^^^there is where most marriages start heading south.

A lot of men are mortally AFRAID of their wives. Women do not respect men who are afraid of them. 
They respect a man who respects himself enough not to accept bad treatment from ANYBODY.
They respect a man who respects them enough to tell them the truth when they need it.
They respects a man who knows exactly how to treat
 his woman.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I get a little mixed up sometimes as to what is alpha and beta. It seems to change depending on who you are conversing with on this board.

It seems to range from;

Alpha = borderline woman hating knobhead through to self assured, confident man who takes charge and is a team leader. And is a big strong Mr Muscles Johnny Bravo type.

Beta = complete wuss who lets wifey walk all over him while he cries and whinges through to self assured confident man who is family/domestic orientated and tends to be a team player. And is a weak, soft namby pamby milktoast.

It even changes from one website to another. I've seen a website, can't remember the URL, which categorises the alpha as the leader of the group, but categorises the beta as basically only one step removed from the alpha, still a leader type, but almost subordinate to the alpha.

As Lovesherman said the problem is not so much about being alpha or beta in a relationship but more about respecting your SO and encouraging respect for yourself.

I know my wife respects me, and I'm pretty sure I'm a poster boy for beta behaviours. However I look after myself, keep fit and active and try to look 'good'.

I am also prepared to draw that line in the sand and not take unnecessary shet.

I know I've posted this before but it always gives me a chuckle, my wife calls me her C0cky Balpha cook.
Because I am a bit c0cky, I'm *her* perfect mix of beta and alpha and I love cooking.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Communication is awesome. Intimacy trumps this however. Intomacy will nurture communication at higher levels. Intimcay interestingly enough takes a blend of traits. On the one hand it is Beta. Oxytocin ( Beta ) is important here. But dopamine ( Alpha ) drives Intimacy to passionate levels. So I want this mixed combination. Not just one or the other with my wife. I deserve it. She deserves it. It is up to me as her husband to seek this in our marriage. It is not up to some other man.
> 
> Meeting each others needs is both Beta AND Alpha.


I agree with the idea of blending traits and balance. Intimacy is (non-verbal) communication.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

WyshIknew said:


> I get a little mixed up sometimes as to what is alpha and beta. It seems to change depending on who you are conversing with on this board.
> 
> It seems to range from;
> 
> ...


I am right. Just follow what I say and you are golden. LOL.

Balance is key.

But you can also equate the following :

Alpha -- dopamine

Beta -- oxytocin

A man who rushes into a burning building to save a child must be :

1) Beta enough to put his life in danger for the child. He cares.

2) Alpha enough to have the courage to do so. He is decisive and will take risks.

Either extreme and the child burns up. A pure Alpha would not care enough to risk his life. He is selfish. An extreme Beta will feel for the child and perhpas cry about it. But they will be paralyzed in fear or at least expect someone else more capable than they to actually do something about it.

A good husband and father has a balance of traits.

And FWIW a man with a blend will dominate a pure Alpha. Yes really. Why? Because it is a value proposition. An Alpha will take easy sex from a married woman. However, he can be run off by a man with a balance. The man with the balance cares and is all in. The Alpha will move on. He does not really care.


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

Blue Firefly said:


> Unfortunately, they married women, and deep inside every woman is a primal attraction to masculine men (as well as its inverse--a primal feeling of repulsion for non-masculine men).


This is incorrect. Some women are attracted to feminine women or androgynous men or women. Also, alpha and masculine are not the same thing.

I agree with the original post. If you can't be who you are with your spouse, what's the point? You shouldn't have to change yourself.

You can forget all the alpha/beta crap if you are attractive enough. In that case you can act however you like and the ladies just follow you around. Yes life is just easier for pretty people.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> I agree with the idea of blending traits and balance. Intimacy is (non-verbal) communication.


I think intimacy is way more than non verbal. It is a deeper level of communication that includes the physical. But bonding is intimacy. A connection.

Indeed it is said that women require a connection to have sex and men have sex to get connection. I see this as part of intimacy. This is a general / typical statement.

So I say a deep level of communication is intimacy. Moreover this intimacy encourages transparency. A couple needs a certain level of intimacy to be embrace full transparency. Those that need to be private are at a lesser level of intimacy.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

michzz said:


> How about being a decent human being who cares about himself, the people he loves, and the greater community and chooses to not harm others, enhance the lives around him?
> 
> Screw labels.


But isn't being a " decent human being " also a label?
Isn't that also something that people can aspire to or could it also be considered " in authentic? "

In other words, what make it ok to aspire to be a decent human being , and not ok to aspire to no longer be a " nice guy" whom his partner takes advantage of?

Will aspiring to be a decent human being guarantee attracting the right behaviours from your partner?

And what if my partner thinks that me being a decent human being means accepting whatever treatment they dish out?

Is there a way to correct that , if its wrong?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

michzz said:


> I believe you are overthinking my commentary.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that anyone be a marshmallow. What I am trying to introduce is that the binary terminology bandied around endlessly is too confining. I think the use of it loses sight of the qualities needed in life to succeed.
> 
> Use whatever terms you must, but for me they do not work.


Appreciate your response, and yes , I may be overthinking it.
Its in my nature ,or my Mech. Eng. background. I tend to analyze everything logically.

So my argument is that if someone can aspire to be a decent human being , then surely, asserting themselves by attempting to adopt certain types of positive character traits can be achieved with some effort, somewhere along that continuum ?

In other words,is the idea of becoming a decent human being and adapting positive leadership traits incongruous, and if not ,highly achievable if one so desires?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> So what do YOU recommend?
> 
> BTW., the connection is right there.
> But if you can answer my question honestly, then I would show you the connection.


If a guy found himself in a relationship where he was emotionally abused or there were intimacy issues. I would recommend that he talk to his wife about how and she is treating him that why. If that doesn't work do couples counseling. If he is still being mistreated he would need to make a decision on whether or not he wants to live the rest of his life this way, or get divorced and find happiness with someone else. Is this the right answer?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> If a guy found himself in a relationship where he was emotionally abused or there were intimacy issues.* I would recommend that he talk to his wife about how and she is treating him that why. If that doesn't work do couples counseling.  If he is still being mistreated he would need to make a decision on whether or not he wants to live the rest of his life this way, or get divorced and find happiness with someone else. * Is this the right answer?


This ^^^ right there is exactly what " manning up " entails.
It simply means taking responsibility for whatever situation you're in and doing something positive about it.

Therin lies the connection.

There's no " right or wrong answer. Everything in this, is relative to the personalities involved.

That's why " being yourself " cannot be the best response to anyone in that type of negative relationship dynamic. Them " being themselves " is partially responsible for their situation anyway.
Like the one of thee moderators said on another thread ;
".._nothing changes if nothing changes_.."


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

michzz said:


> The labeling of positive character traits as has been done endlessly as A and negative character traits as B is something I have found to be nonuseful to me personally. I see it as having a hammer and found it good for smacking nails. Suddenly everything seems like a nail to be hit by a hammer.
> 
> End of threadjack.


Not sure I agree that this completely true. Many here recognize that "Alpha" and "Beta" traits can be both positive and negative. Beta is typically associated with negative on this board because the type of man who comes here most often is out of balance with too many "beta" traits. Men with too many "alpha" traits tend not to come here. 

That said, I agree it is a tool. Like any tool it has its strengths and weaknesses. Just because a hammer makes a poor screw driver does not make it useless as a tool.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What we call it doesn't matter. I don't care about the words used. Unfortunately, using words to define or describe an aggregate of behaviors, and interpersonal circumstances, people find the decriptors helpful.

The tenor of this issue has been discussed before, you will get an idea if you peruse the first few pages of posts: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/16221-how-about-them-apples.html

At it's simplest, I often refer to these sets of behaviors as 'Paying Attention'. But that really doesn't help much when it comes to descriptive advice.

I say it all of the time, I don't care what it's called or how it's referred to, I care if it works.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

michzz said:


> I believe you are overthinking my commentary.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that anyone be a marshmallow. What I am trying to introduce is that the binary terminology bandied around endlessly is too confining. I think the use of it loses sight of the qualities needed in life to succeed.
> 
> Use whatever terms you must, but for me they do not work.


Alpha and Beta are only binary to those that want to envision it as so.

I see it not only as a blending continuum but with magnitudes. A pure Alpha and a pure Beta do not exist in nature.

But think of it as a faucet. 

Alpha : flow equals X in magnitude

Beta : flow equals X in magnitude 

We have balance

Alpha : flow equals X in magnitude

Beta : flow equals X + Y in magnitude.

Various ways to get balance here. He can up the Alpha by + Y, or he can reduce the Beta by - Y. Since beat is not inherently bad I would suggest if he can that he ups his Alpha. BUT indeed he could adjust both. Add a little Alpha nad reduce a little Beta. Not binary at all.

So as in a faucet full on hot ( Alpha ) will harm the baby. Full on cold ( Beta ) will harm the baby. How about adjusting the temperatures and maginitudes in a balance that is more positive. I prefer to be Beta most of the time and invoke Alpha as needed to meet the situation.

Then of course there is fuel / air mixture at a given pressure.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Great...now I gotta do math!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Topical storm (Mar 30, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I certainly don't advocate someone staying in an emotionally abusive relationship. I am just having a hard time seeing the connection between Alpha behavior and avoiding infidelity and the ILYBINILWY speech.


Alpha means many different things to many people. There's a lot of threads of people debating what alpha means and alpha vs beta. Many people have variances of their defintion of what alpha means to them. It's hard to have a strict definition because it because many people use it in different contexts , and shape their own meaning behind it. I think there are many degrees to alpha and it's not a one size fits all type of word.

With that said, alpha might have a meaning different for me than you. But to me a person who is alpha, cannot 100% avoid infidelity, but he can instill boundaries and let his potential wife or wife that if she was to ever cheat, cross boundaries, or present herself as single of any variation then there would be swift and harsh consequences for her actions.

To me the most important part is just picking the right woman. I don't know if this has anything to do with being alpha or beta, but I would say if you choose the right woman, then you're at least 75% good. (assuming the woman has good morals, no psychological or emotional issues, two parent household etc, or all the qualities that you deem good). The other 25% is on you to be a good husband and instill boundaries so that there isn't a cause or context for her to cheat.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SomedayDig said:


> Great...now I gotta do math!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Sorry.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

75% ... a gentlman's 'C' when it comes to successfully choosing a great long term partner.

Kind of depressing when we view it that way ...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Topical storm said:


> Alpha means many different things to many people. There's a lot of threads of people debating what alpha means and alpha vs beta. Many people have variances of their defintion of what alpha means to them. It's hard to have a strict definition because it because many people use it in different contexts , and shape their own meaning behind it. I think there are many degrees to alpha and it's not a one size fits all type of word.
> 
> With that said, alpha might have a meaning different for me than you. But to me a person who is alpha, cannot 100% avoid infidelity, but he can instill boundaries and let his potential wife or wife that if she was to ever cheat, cross boundaries, or present herself as single of any variation then there would be swift and harsh consequences for her actions.
> 
> To me the most important part is just picking the right woman. I don't know if this has anything to do with being alpha or beta, but I would say if you choose the right woman, then you're at least 75% good. (assuming the woman has good morals, no psychological or emotional issues, two parent household etc, or all the qualities that you deem good). The other 25% is on you to be a good husband and instill boundaries so that there isn't a cause or context for her to cheat.


Excellent post.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Both men and women can exercise boundaries in relationships and it makes neither one of them the dominant actor. 

One of the dangers in discussing cult mythology is adopting the cult's terminology in order to debate with them, which concedes the field by virtue of validating nonexistent concepts at the outset.

The other danger is falling into the analogy trap. Science does not use analogies when it is defining its basic concepts. It is a symptom of pseudo-science when people resort to saying it is "like this" or "like that". If it cannot be described in its own straightforward, concrete terms, and if every cult member has their own special definition, description, and analogy for talking about it - then what is the point of talking about it?

Seriously, does everyone have their own definition of what water is? To some, it is H20. But to others it is H2SO4. And to another it is the wind passing through the trees. To another it is "like" the lillies in the field or a blade of grass. Or maybe a dream... The fact one begins with a statement like "everyone's definition of water is different" tells you that you cannot have a logical discussion. Words do not even have meanings that are the same from one person to the next.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> No, I don't think it does because I don't think it makes sense to assume anything. Self analysis is critical to life. Merely because your spouse is selfish does not relieve you of the duty to clean up your own side of the street.
> 
> Nothing is going to prevent cheating if that is what your spouse wants to do. There are things that can lessen the likelihood, but that is about it. It that sense, it is like cancer - while you can do things to reduce your risk, at some point it is out of your control. But that does not mean you stop taking care of yourself.


Right,

We may not be able to totally prevent it, but we can make it a lot less likely due to awareness and making an active effort.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> But isn't being a " decent human being " also a label?
> Isn't that also something that people can aspire to or could it also be considered " in authentic? "
> 
> In other words, what make it ok to aspire to be a decent human being , and not ok to aspire to no longer be a " nice guy" whom his partner takes advantage of?
> ...


Maybe if you make the correct selection in relationship partner, you won't be "taken advantage" of even if you are in a position for this to occur...


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## Topical storm (Mar 30, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Both men and women can exercise boundaries in relationships and it makes neither one of them the dominant actor.
> 
> One of the dangers in discussing cult mythology is adopting the cult's terminology in order to debate with them, which concedes the field by virtue of validating nonexistent concepts at the outset.
> 
> ...


Ok so who is the cult and what terminology do you propose?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Deejo said:


> The tenor of this issue has been discussed before, you will get an idea if you peruse the first few pages of posts: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/16221-how-about-them-apples.html


Very enlightening and a far more mature discussion, I'd venture. Thanks.



Wiserforit said:


> One of the dangers in discussing cult mythology is adopting the cult's terminology in order to debate with them, which concedes the field by virtue of validating nonexistent concepts at the outset.


Quite.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Topical storm said:


> Ok so who is the cult


Dammit!! Flashback!!

Cult of Personality




My most humble apology. I just couldn't help it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Topical storm said:


> Alpha means many different things to many people. There's a lot of threads of people debating what alpha means and alpha vs beta. Many people have variances of their defintion of what alpha means to them. It's hard to have a strict definition because it because many people use it in different contexts , and shape their own meaning behind it. I think there are many degrees to alpha and it's not a one size fits all type of word.
> 
> With that said, alpha might have a meaning different for me than you. But to me a person who is alpha, cannot 100% avoid infidelity, but he can instill boundaries and let his potential wife or wife that if she was to ever cheat, cross boundaries, or present herself as single of any variation then there would be swift and harsh consequences for her actions.
> 
> To me the most important part is just picking the right woman. I don't know if this has anything to do with being alpha or beta, but I would say if you choose the right woman, then you're at least 75% good. (assuming the woman has good morals, no psychological or emotional issues, two parent household etc, or all the qualities that you deem good). The other 25% is on you to be a good husband and instill boundaries so that there isn't a cause or context for her to cheat.


This^^^just nailed it!
No complex logic , no mathematical equation , nothing like that.
Just common sense and a willingness to think outside of your psychological comfort zone aka , " _thinking outside the box_ ."


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Maybe if you make the correct selection in relationship partner, you won't be "taken advantage" of even if you are in a position for this to occur...



And you are correct.
But how many men were luck like me to have made the correct selection?
How do you know she is the correct selection?
How many men thought they had made the correct selection only to be faced with thee types of problems?

The reality is ,
Neither man nor woman can know for sure.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Right,
> 
> We may not be able to totally prevent it, *but we can make it a lot less likely due to awareness and making an active effort.*


:iagree:

My point exactly.
Work on yourself first of all.
Work on your marriage, it needs constant work. This
" just be yourself " stuff only works in theory.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Topical storm said:


> Ok so who is the cult ?


I see cross-pollination from the PUA/Game/Alpha arenas, with the common core being how to get women under your spell. So it is, in a way, a sexual sorcery. There are aspects of it that draw from emotional manipulation for sure, so to say it is mystical would be an overstatement. 

It is clearly pop-psychology. 



> and what terminology do you propose?


What a silly question. As if I were to suggest some completely new vocabulary instead of plain, pre-existing english. 

But then again, the money is in the invention of a new pseudo-science so maybe I should re-think that.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> I see cross-pollination from the PUA/Game/Alpha arenas, with the common core being how to get women under your spell. So it is, in a way, a sexual sorcery. There are aspects of it that draw from emotional manipulation for sure, so to say it is mystical would be an overstatement.
> 
> It is clearly pop-psychology.


And what , may I ask is the science behind the :
" 180 for the betrayed spouse ?"

Isn't all that stuff " emotional manipulation " too?

Just asking!


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> And you are correct.
> But how many men were luck like me to have made the correct selection?
> How do you know she is the correct selection?
> How many men thought they had made the correct selection only to be faced with thee types of problems?
> ...


Well men and women can agree that it has to be more than sex.

It's also more than a strong amount of attraction and sparks.

We try our best and hope that they also feel we were a good choice.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My point exactly.
> Work on yourself first of all.
> ...


Be yourself I think about myself.

Well it's not going to work well if you work hard to maintain an area of compatibility that you really don't like to have to maintain. So it will die down over time, unless you make it part of you.

Perhaps being yourself just realizes that there are certain personality types that you don't work well with.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> *Be yourself I think about myself.*


lol,
You're waxing philosophical now!


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Regardless of whether the alpha/beta issue is good/bad right/wrong... I just hate the idea of some trying to be someone their not. Self improvement is fine.. but not trying to change who you are to please someone else.

The mental picture I ALWAYS get when I hear (beta) men saying they are trying to 'alpha up' is that image of the little dog acting and strutting like he's thinks he's Rottweiler. It just looks silly.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

waiwera said:


> Regardless of whether the alpha/beta issue is good/bad right/wrong... I just hate the idea of some trying to be someone their not. Self improvement is fine.. but not trying to change who you are to please someone else.
> 
> The mental picture I ALWAYS get when I hear (beta) men saying they are trying to 'alpha up' is that image of the little dog acting and strutting like he's thinks he's Rottweiler. It just looks silly.


Little man really alpha'd up in that image. I'm sure the big dog really likes him and doesn't want to upset the little guy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ReformedHubby said:


> I stumbled on to this board a few months ago because I was looking for a way to help a friend who was going through a divorce. _*He literally gave his wife and family all of himself, and she woke up one day and told him she wasn't attracted to him anymore and that was it*_.
> 
> After looking at all of the discussion on being Alpha and not being a "nice" guy, I immediately thought that this description sounded like my friend in his relationship. I told him to look into some of the resources on this site so that he could "man up". Well....it hasn't really worked out so good. * I now realize that he is who he is.* He can't just make himself more Alpha, it almost seems like he is focusing on it too much now instead of just being himself. I almost feel sorry for the next women he dates because she will probably end up paying for the first wife's mistake.
> 
> ...


I do happen to THINK like this ...so many of these threads I allow to get under my skin .... Because I'm married to a *Genuine Nice Guy.*..he is what HE is.. this man is not going to change from the affectionate more introverted peace loving Gentleman that HE is/ and has always been even from his teens.....to some electrifying ALPHA whose strutting himself around causing a stir everywhere he goes.. 

Was talking about this thread tonight....he told me he has no desire to be anything like an Alpha......Balanced Alpha/beta is fine ....but any hint of too much ALPHA, he pretty much sees such men (his words)...as conniving Bas*ards who walk all over people to get ahead... and he doesn't like how they treat women either...

This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with him.

Even after going through "No More Mr Nice Guy" (I bought the book, I am the reader)....I showed him areas he missed it in our past.....he even agreed with me...

I told him he should have been been more assertive with his needs, told me "WHAT FOR" darn him ! - Laid it on the line... you know what he said to me.... he still said if he had to do it all over again...he wouldn't do anything to hurt me ! 

Now really...what do I do with that...this is just who he is.. should I have yelled at him and told him he is hopeless... Actually I did tell him he was "hopeless" putting my hands up in the air saying "What am I going to do with you!!" ...I can't say I was mad....but I realized in that...some men just ARE what they are...take them or leave them. He's always Liked who he was. 

I feel like I am constantly trying to defend something in these threads......but I fall short...

I'm not against the tweaking, the becoming a better man IF you are missing it somewhere, if you are a doormat (Of [email protected]#$%)....being more Responsible, gaining a little "EDGE" (all good !)..... but this whole idea these man can be transformed into some New Model... I just don't believe that.

Such men need to take what they ARE at their core ...acknowledge their GOOD traits and build onto those, weeding out the bad....but never to dismiss the good....trying to blacken them because BETA traits are slaughtered all over the internet in countless articles as weakness and pathetic... The truth is...Beta is beautiful too. 



> Originally Posted by* Topical storm*
> To me the most important part is just picking the right woman. I don't know if this has anything to do with being alpha or beta, but I would say if you choose the right woman, then you're at least 75% good. (assuming the woman has good morals, no psychological or emotional issues, two parent household etc, or all the qualities that you deem good). The other 25% is on you to be a good husband and instill boundaries so that there isn't a cause or context for her to cheat.


 Couldn't agree more with this ... 

It so does matter WHO these men attach themselves to.. 

I feel what sets me apart *for* these type of men...I've never wanted another over my husband since we married....and he is most definitely tipped Beta... 

But I would take a * Romantic * (BETA led) over *Excitement* (ALPHA led)....also I would choose *Transparency* & his being my Best friend (Beta ) over *Mystery* (Alpha)....we also wanted Family...shared similar beliefs / dreams, ideas on sex, we were very in sync. 

My husband is on the softer side.....the kids even LIKE him more than me -it's a running joke in our house....But he's still *THE MAN*.....he doesn't shirk his responsibilities... He is respected & well liked at work (of course he is easy to get along with- unlike some there...women aren't the only ones who cause DRAMA )......he's even the boss's favorite & he's not kissing his a$$ (but Go figure, the Boss needs Anger management - my husband's been the Peacemaker a # of times )....... The good guy, the one that isn't the life of the party, minds his own business...but is like a steady ROCK....can always be counted on...



michzz said:


> How about being a decent human being who cares about himself, the people he loves, and the greater community and chooses to not harm others, enhance the lives around him?
> 
> Screw labels.


 :smthumbup:This would be his motto...how he looks at life , family & living.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> One advantage to saying that you are who you are and cannot make adjustments is that you can put blame completely elsewhere for the things that happen in your life. You can be lazy, naive and ambivalent and pretty much say, hey ... I'm good. This does suit certain personality types.
> 
> However this does not fit all folks for sure. Some folks have the abiltiy to adapt and learn and make decisions in life that improve their chances of success. The problem is that this takes work and accountabiltiy and many folks would rather just not do that.
> 
> ...



This


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Of course it doesn't

Just as long as you're not a doormat you're fine


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

waiwera said:


> Regardless of whether the alpha/beta issue is good/bad right/wrong... I just hate the idea of some trying to be someone their not. Self improvement is fine.. but not trying to change who you are to please someone else.
> 
> The mental picture I ALWAYS get when I hear (beta) men saying they are trying to 'alpha up' is that image of the little dog acting and strutting like he's thinks he's Rottweiler. It just looks silly.


I had a friend with a dog like that.

But that dog was BAAAD!

The big dog was obedient, and only did what it was told to do.
However, the little dog was bada$$ , and would tear your shoes , flop flops , or anything he could get his teeth on to shreds if you got too close to his owner.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I do happen to THINK like this ...so many of these threads I allow to get under my skin .... Because I'm married to a *Genuine Nice Guy.*..he is what HE is.. this man is not going oto change from the affectionate more introverted peace loving Gentleman that HE is/ and has always been even from his teens.....to some electrifying ALPHA whose strutting himself around causing a stir everywhere he goes..
> 
> Was talking about this thread tonight....he told me he has no desire to be anything like an Alpha......Balanced Alpha/beta is fine ....but any hint of too much ALPHA, he pretty much sees such men (his words)...as conniving Bas*ards who walk all over people to get ahead... and he doesn't like how they treat women either...
> 
> ...



How can you be attracted to him as it seems he has no Care in the world about being more dominant and alpha. How can u even desire this man inside of you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> How can you be attracted to him as it seems he has no Care in the world about being more dominant and alpha. How can u even desire this man inside of you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol: :rofl:


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> How can you be attracted to him as it seems he has no Care in the world about being more dominant and alpha. How can u even desire this man inside of you?


Well I got from her posts that Simply likes her husband just the way he is. Both of them together are compatible in their marriage , so the marriage _works_.
She has more dominant personality traits than him.

Lets suppose he had the same type of traits as her , do you think the relationship would work the same way?
I doubt it.

Lets say she was an exact replica of him , do you think the same measure of compatibility would have existed?
Hardly likely.

I think many of you all looking at this in a vacuum. 
What is important is not what other people think, but what works for _your_ relationship.
Gaining the right mixture or balance of personality traits makes the relationship more compatible.
People are not only attracted to physical looks, but they also fall in love with personality traits.

Like Simply , I know what WORKS with my wife in our relationship.
If I decide to call it Alpha , Apple or Sugarcane, none of you can tell me that it doesn't work. Again, like Simply , she knows what WORKS in their marriage and none of you can tell her it doesn't.
lol,
That's how useless and pointless this entire argument is.

Call it man up , anti doormat , alpha ,real alpha , apples , cowboy , personality traits , wolfgang , silver back gorilla , inner she goddess , or whatever....

As Dejoo said earlier on, call it whatever you want to call it , what matters is what WORKS.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> How can you be attracted to him as it seems he has no Care in the world about being more dominant and alpha. How can u even desire this man inside of you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can tell you how as my guy is very similar to Mr. SA. I am aroused by his romantic nature. He has very deep feelings, and he makes me a priority in his life. He has an engineering background with the spirit of an old soul. The perfect combination for me. I respect and admire my husband. He possesses emotional strength without having to beat his chest about how dominant he is.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

waiwera said:


> Regardless of whether the alpha/beta issue is good/bad right/wrong... I just hate the idea of some trying to be someone their not. Self improvement is fine.. but not trying to change who you are to please someone else.


I would never advise changing to please anyone but yourself.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think many of you all looking at this in a vacuum.
> What is important is not what other people think, but what works for _your_ relationship.
> Gaining the right mixture or balance of personality traits makes the relationship more compatible.
> People are not only attracted to physical looks, but they also fall in love with personality traits.


A point that many seem to miss in their zeal to attack the idea of "alpha" or "manning-up" is that the man who is seeking advice is not happy in his relationship. It is not working for him, so he is looking for answers.

If things were going well, I would not advise changing the mix. SA is a good example. Their relationship works for both of them, so why change things? But if it was not, then perhaps a change would make sense.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel like I am constantly trying to defend something in these threads......but I fall short...


I think you do a fine job. It's just that a lot of people don't want to hear it because they are too wrapped up in the alpha fantasy.

My take on the alpha fantasy: the basic rock star fantasy gussied up in pseudo-scientific language by drunk adolescents with the narcissistic dream of being constantly in the spotlight, with everyone hanging on their every word and catering to their whims. Their primary goal seems to be "making panties wet", as though panties have their own sexuality independent of the women wearing them. Or getting what they want, no matter who they have to step on to get there.

And yes, some women might go for this, as they too share the dream. But it is far from universally admired and respected. And rightly so, to my mind.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> A point that many seem to miss in their zeal to attack the idea of "alpha" or "manning-up" is that the man who is seeking advice is not happy in his relationship. It is not working for him, so he is looking for answers.
> 
> If things were going well, I would not advise changing the mix. SA is a good example. Their relationship works for both of them, so why change things? But if it was not, then perhaps a change would make sense.


Going "Alpha", if you have been doormatted and cuckholded in a relationship is a viable strategy. Being supportive and loving is not, and will get you really hurt.

So I agree with some of the Alpha stuff and disagree with other parts of it.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> I can tell you how as my guy is very similar to Mr. SA. I am aroused by his romantic nature. He has very deep feelings, and he makes me a priority in his life. He has an engineering background with the spirit of an old soul. The perfect combination for me. I respect and admire my husband. He possesses emotional strength without having to beat his chest about how dominant he is.


I was trying to get you guys to say that. I know that some of you appreciate a man who makes you a priority and it makes you want him even more.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

waiwera said:


> Regardless of whether the alpha/beta issue is good/bad right/wrong... *I just hate the idea of some trying to be someone their not.* Self improvement is fine.. but not trying to change who you are to please someone else.
> 
> The mental picture I ALWAYS get when I hear (beta) men saying they are trying to 'alpha up' is that image of the little dog acting and strutting like he's thinks he's Rottweiler. It just looks silly.


Actually all dogs have the right to be respected and stand up for themselves.

So women should have not fought for equallity then? To try to be something they were not. I see. Indeed many men thought that was silly. That women should not worry their pretty little heads about such things. See how condescending that is? So lets keep these Beta men down. After all they can be controlled. They have been programmed. They need to know their place. They are the little dog and can never really be that Rottweiler. Really? 

Because what is missed in all this is that many many men have been programmed to be something they are not. What men are told with manning up is to look inside and be the man that they truly are. To adapt to society.

I was not always an Engineer. I became one. I was not always a teacher. I became one. I was not always a father. I became one. And so on.

So some folks just flat refuse to see that a man adjusting his Alpha / Beta balance is merely asserting hmself as the man he was.

Sometimes I think this just scares the heck out of some folks. Like OMG if a man asserts himself he is fighting the programming that he has been under to control his behavior. Society has programmed many men to be submissive. Just like society had trained many women to be submissive. 

So to me anyway, we are just telling men to decalre that they are people too. They have a right to be respected. We are telling them that they do not have to succumb to the you are being jealous. insecure and controlling programing that many of them have been indoctrinated by. We tell them that you are a man and have every right to have respect. That you matter. You are more than a work drone and a baby sitter.

The barrage on men to just suck it up and accept disrespect is unyielding.

It is not asking a man to be something he cannot be. A viable human being is not stagnate. They must learn, grow and adapt continuously. 

Men are guided in this way when they come here and are being disrespected. You cannot control others but you can control yourself. These are not men with balance.

So when a woman is being abused by her husband we tell her that she should not accept this disrespect. Becaue it is hooribly wrong. We do not say, we are asking her to be something she is not. We encourage her to stand up for herself and get help. To not accept the abuse. 

Many of the men who come here may or may not be physically abused. But indeed it is very common for them to be humiliated on a daily basis and they feel captive in not wanting to lose their children if they stand up for themselves. This is abuse. So when a man is in an abusive situation I think it it very appropriate to tell him that he deserves to be respected. That his wife being unfaithful to him should not be tolerated.

Also it is not a choice between Alpha and Beta. As has been stated. There is magnitude as well. A guy willl tons of Alpha can also have tons of Beta. A man can be very Beta in positive ways and then be able to invoke the Alpha when the need arrives. Beta traits are wondermous. But am I hearing that women want a weak man? Someone who is unable to satndup for himself? Or them? Really? Is that just adorable and cute?

So the advice is not going to the guys married to the woman who is sexually attrcted to her husband. It goes to guys who are very Beta and either in a sexless marriage or in a marriage where the wife is seeking out other men. This is a very different situation from a contented marriage. We can say he married the wrong woman and I would agree BUT if he has children with them it is unfair to ask him to walk away without working on himself and his marriage first.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I think you do a fine job. It's just that a lot of people don't want to hear it because they are too wrapped up in the alpha fantasy.
> 
> My take on the alpha fantasy: the basic rock star fantasy gussied up in pseudo-scientific language by drunk adolescents with the narcissistic dream of being constantly in the spotlight, with everyone hanging on their every word and catering to their whims. Their primary goal seems to be "making panties wet", as though panties have their own sexuality independent of the women wearing them. Or getting what they want, no matter who they have to step on to get there.
> 
> And yes, some women might go for this, as they too share the dream. But it is far from universally admired and respected. And rightly so, to my mind.


Interesting I wouldn't exactly say that my recently divorced friend's new attitude is to this extreme, but my wife has started jokingly referring to him as Shallow Hal. Keep in mind I know the types of women he used to date prior to getting married. I do think added confidence will help him as he gets back into dating, but to be honest I'm not so sure he is targeting women that are anywhere near his sex rank. I hope it works out for him but I am concerned that he is setting himself up to fail.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Actually all dogs have the right to be respected and stand up for themselves.


Yes! And this is precisely why the alpha/beta thing is so unhelpful. It doesn't matter if you are a rock star, captain of industry, mechanic, gardener, whatever. You deserve respect.



Entropy3000 said:


> Also it is not a choice between Alpha and Beta. As has been stated. There is magnitude as well. A guy willl tons of Alpha can also have tons of Beta. A man can be very Beta in positive ways and then be able to invoke the Alpha when the need arrives. Beta traits are wondermous. But am I hearing that women want a weak man? Someone who is unable to satndup for himself? Or them? Really? Is that just adorable and cute?


Beta does not equal doormat. Doormat is a special problem all unto itself. When we encourage people to be true to themselves, we are not encouraging them to sit idly by while others abuse them. This is not "themselves"; it is the context and circumstances they find themselves in. Women are being themselves when they fight for equality. Just because a few men disagreed and wanted to maintain the comfortable status quo doesn't mean that women's true nature is to be patronized.

Similarly men are not "themselves" when they are being taken for granted or unappreciated or downright treated badly. This is the situation they find themselves in. 

I agree with you 100% that we need to learn, adapt, and respond in new ways. That we should not just roll over and accept an awful situation. But this is also a part of being ourselves. We weren't born as fully autonomous adults, we had to do a lot of changing to get here, and will have to keep changing to stay afloat. I don't think any of this has anything to do with whether a person is alpha or beta. It has to do with finding ways to make the best of a bad situation.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I have always been very beta. That’s who I am…

A couple of years ago I started my 180…no infidelity… I just thought my wife wasn’t doing her part in the marriage. I didn’t feel loved or desired. I wanted to change that.

So I started to work out several times a week

I took up several hobbies running and sculling

I started to work later which actually helped my career


I stopped saying I LOVE YOU and my wife stopped saying that too. 

I realized that she was never the one to say it first.

I developed a couple of friends and started to get reacquainted with friends I didn’t see for a long time. Even happy hour.

I stopped initiating with sex which surprised my wife. I think for a while she was happy that we weren’t having sex. 

I stopped hugging her. 

Some nights I slept in the spare bedroom

I did all I was able to do to not get angry for lack of affection.

I still don’t know what my wife was thinking but she started to initiate sex like never before. I THINK she did so for the wrong reason. She is so LD, maybe even Asexual..I don’t know. I think she thought I had one foot out the door.

That hurt me more. I missed my daughter because I was away a lot and taking care of my other needs and I was acting like a whole different person. It was hard work and my wife wore me down.

Trying to be more Alpha didn’t get me the results that I was after. After 22 years together, deep down I am a nice guy as well as too trusting. I would rather not hurt my wife in any way.

The 180/Alpha personality did get several women to flirt with me more where I NEVER had that before. That was a little scary. 

Today I am more confident. My wife still initiates because I think she loves me, even though she still doesn’t say i I LOVE YOU. I think we have that balance now. Maybe I just accepted everything for what it is. My wife and I are still best friends. I think she like my beta personality more that me trying to be Alpha


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ReformedHubby said:


> I hope it works out for him but I am concerned that he is setting himself up to fail.


The result of which, can be the most valuable lessons life has to teach us.

If he's actively hurting people, call him on it.

If he gets hurt, let him figure it out and be there to support him.

This stuff is really, really, quite simple. If you don't like it or don't believe it? Don't do it.

Life certainly isn't static. It isn't supposed to be. Nor should we waste much time fretting about how others may think or feel about the decisions we make, as long as we are making them responsibly, and are prepared to accept the consequences of those decisions.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> So some folks just flat refuse to see that a man adjusting his Alpha / Beta balance is merely asserting hmself as the man he was.
> 
> It is not asking a man to be something he cannot be. A viable human being is not stagnate. They must learn, grow and adapt continuously.


Yep, it's a process.



> In the chapter of his autobiography titled “The Vigor of Life,” Theodore Roosevelt discusses his youth as “a sickly boy, with no natural bodily prowess.” He had a pivotal experience after being defenseless when two boys bullied him. Roosevelt took up boxing, which led to wrestling, horseback riding, and other athletic endeavors. While he never attained elite success in these sports, Roosevelt was a passionate athlete.
> 
> Theodore Roosevelt on Powerlifting


Should Teddy Roosevelt have simply accepted that he was sickly and that his fate was to be bullied by others?

I'm sure when he first took up boxing and wrestling that he was ridiculed as the sickly kid trying to act manly. He probably stood out as someone trying to be something he wasn't. Yet, he did finally achieve his goal. He turned himself from the a sickly punching bag for others into someone respected and admired by others.

I see the same process happening for guys trying to "alpha up." They may not quit get it or look the part at first, but that doesn't mean they eventually won't reach their goal.

Life's a process. You don't reach your final destination immediately; you don't achieve your goals in one step. You constantly improve. A little better today than yesterday. That's all it takes to get there. 

And, if people make fun of you along the way, because you aren't there yet--so what? There just trying to tear you down.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Do you guys not realize that it just sounds like you blame women for your own mistakes?

I'm all for manning up, I really am. It is truly just self-improvement, so I'm all for woman-ing up, too.

But if women went on and on about how men created the space they were in where they subjegated all their power to him, and how they were a good little wifey and the man just shoved her down and down until she was broken...and THEN she woman-ed up and part of that was learning about how men keep women down....do you see how that would come across?

Why can't we talk about individual self-improvement without blaming the other sex for being the reason we need it?

Our choices get us where we end up, and no matter why we made those choices, WE made them.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you guys not realize that it just sounds like you blame women for your own mistakes?
> 
> I'm all for manning up, I really am. It is truly just self-improvement, so I'm all for woman-ing up, too.
> 
> ...


Faithful wife.

No one here is blaming women. But in many of the cases on this board, if men were to remain in the positions that women put them into they would accept being subjugated, cuckholded and abused.

It's the same for the women on the board. Either you accept yourself in a cheated on position, you work it out or you leave.

I cannot defend a woman or man whose stance puts their spouse in a abused position. And some of these cases become life changing even violent.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> But if women went on and on about how men created the space they were in where they subjegated all their power to him, and how they were a good little wifey and the man just shoved her down and down until she was broken...and THEN she woman-ed up and part of that was learning about how men keep women down....do you see how that would come across?


I'm not trying to be a smart-alec ... ok I am.
Do you _really_ think there aren't threads exactly like you described above here?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Can you point me to one, Deejo? Honestly haven't seen one. I don't know of any books for women's (specifically) self-improvement that talk about how men hold them down and how they must resist the desire to be men pleasers. I totally agree there might be such books, and actually, I want to read them so I can be pissed about that, too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Daddy said: "...if men were to remain in the positions *that women put them into*..."

This is exactly what I mean. How does anyone else put YOU in any position? C'mon.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Trickster said:


> I have always been very beta. That’s who I am…
> 
> A couple of years ago I started my 180…no infidelity… I just thought my wife wasn’t doing her part in the marriage. I didn’t feel loved or desired. I wanted to change that.
> 
> ...


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know of any books for women's (specifically) self-improvement that talk about how men hold them down and how they must resist the desire to be men pleasers.


Did you miss the entire feminist movement of the last half century?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Blue...but I'm talking about NOW. Are there current self-help books for women that blame men for their problems? If there are, what are the names of those books? Honest question.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Blue Firefly said:


> Yep, it's a process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting you bring him up. He is my favorite president. I even call myself a Teddy Roosevelt Republican. I flat liked his style. He was a man of action. He even took on the Monopolies. Some say he was the inspiration for the Comic character Batman.

I guess I have spent my life in pursuit of being things that I wasn't. LOL. That is who I am. I am that person. The person who is always striving to better myself. I know I am not alone in this. I do this through affrimations. Very powerful stuff.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It isn't about blame. Certainly not to me ...

Have you read NMMNG Faithful? Glover devotes a chapter to the evolution of the Nice Guy, and women figure into it prominently, but to be clear ... there is no blaming of the women.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Daddy said: "...if men were to remain in the positions *that women put them into*..."
> 
> This is exactly what I mean. How does anyone else put YOU in any position? C'mon.


If you become cheated on and the wife will not allow you to touch her, has you sleep in a different bed, is not working with you anymore, is disruptive and disrespectful, over time it will affect your psychology.

And many times the woman can get other people in "on the action", so other males or family members will join in on the cuckhold joke.

You see at first, people might think it looks odd to see you in this subjugated position. Over time it becomes the norm and they think you like it. 

It's the same if a man does it to a woman.

It happens. Even to formerly Alpha's who may have fallen in love.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes I read NMMNG. Yes I totally understood the position of the author and agreed with the premise, and I know many men like this, AND I have contribued to that forum.

But men who are in that position frequently do blame women for where they end up. Do you disagree with that? (I see it everywhere).

MMSL definitely blames women, IMO. I read that one, too.

I am asking for the name of a book for women specifically?

- - - - - - 

Maybe instead of trying to debate me on this you could just see my point. That when READING these stories and responses by men, it SOUNDS like you are blaming women for your own mistakes.

"I only did this because it is what she said she wanted, then she lost attraction for me", sounds like "I made an error in judgment and I blame her for it because I was trying to please her instead of being self-validating".

Or "I am in a sexless marriage because my wife has a low sex drive" instead of "I was young and foolish and believed I knew what I was doing when I chose my wife, but now I see I ignored every red flag".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Daddy...if you or anyone subjegated yourself, that was YOUR choice.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you point me to one, Deejo? Honestly haven't seen one. I don't know of any books for women's (specifically) self-improvement that talk about how men hold them down and how they must resist the desire to be men pleasers. I totally agree there might be such books, and actually, I want to read them so I can be pissed about that, too.


The CWI is chock full of them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Point me to a specific one, please?


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Daddy...if you or anyone subjegated yourself, that was YOUR choice.


Armed with the current knowledge, yes I agree with you. But when you are younger and more ignorant, and following your "heart", you can get into a lot of trouble.

I don't want to cry on my situation on this board, because it's an old situation that's past.

I did just want to add, when it's done to men, a lot of times the men receive the blame and people will pile on top. Other men can testify to this.

With my current knowledge, if anyone wants to try to have me in such a position I would let them go very quickly and painlessly. Actions speak so much louder than words, that person does not love you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Daddy said: "...if men were to remain in the positions *that women put them into*..."
> 
> This is exactly what I mean. How does anyone else put YOU in any position? C'mon.


They need to man-up. They need to get some balance. Again the message is to those men. It is encourgaing them to be accountable for themselves. This IS the point. To not be passive.

But much of this is about social conditioning. In the same way that women have lived with social conditioning. They are brought up a certain way. Then in a relationship when they feel disresepected they are inundated with being told that they need to stop being jealous, insecure and controlling by many. They begin to doubt themselves. That something is wrong with them. That their wife seeking attention from other men is ok.

How many threads start with a guy coming on here, saying they know they have been controlling and are working on it but violated their wifes privacy and found that the wife was in an affair. They aks for advice on how to not feel so jealous. They apologize to their wife for violating their privacy and that they promise that they will work on themselves to not be so controlling and so on. They start doing more chores around the house. They take care of the kids so the wife can get more space and so on. Pitiful stuff.

So I guess we should just give them a virtual hug. Tell them they need to realize that they do not own their wife and that they need to stop violating their privacy. Some folks do advise this. They get told it is against the law to snoop and things like that.

So we tell them to man up and use a convention that relates to Alpha / Beta traits. This bothers some I guess.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> If you become cheated on and the wife will not allow you to touch her, has you sleep in a different bed, is not working with you anymore, is disruptive and disrespectful, over time it will affect your psychology.
> 
> And many times the woman can get other people in "on the action", so other males or family members will join in on the cuckhold joke.
> 
> ...


The toughest one of these for me to watch is the guy that has children and is essentially held hostage by this fact. He accepts humliation thinking that he must to be with his children.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> The toughest one of these for me to watch is the guy that has children and is essentially held hostage by this fact. He accepts humliation thinking that he must to be with his children.


That's what trapped me into the position that gave me all the knowledge of these situations.

However without going through the pain, I could not appreciate a good situation, to know how to take care of a good situation as well as I can today.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Perhaps it is just my thinking, but when I read or hear about a wife OR husband who has been crappy to their spouse, I just consider it like "yes, because people are crappy sometimes". I don't consider it like "yes, because MEN are like that" or "yes, because WOMEN are like that".

But when people group the gender together to sound this way...instead of individually blaming that individual crappy spouse regardless of their gender for their own crappy behavior....I don't get it.

Marriage is hard. Both genders really just want love and happiness. People make mistakes. Why focus on "the way women put men in such and such positon?"

Doesn't my point make any sense at all? You guys don't see it?

It is ok if you don't.

When I read about a woman who is in dire straights in her marriage, I assume she picked the wrong man....I do not think "yeah well stupid men if only they would be different and stop being horrible oppressors" or similar.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Point me to a specific one, please?


You are perfectly capable of doing this on your own.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

The problem is not the individual. There are good and bad in every group. The problem is when governmental and social agencies promote and favor one group over another. In the case of gender inequality for many years men were favored over women. Now the pendulum has swung the other way and women are overwhelmingly favored over men. What very few want to realize or admit is that so long as one group is given favorable treatment we all lose in the long run.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Entropy...I already read dozens of threads here every day, and I do not come across ones with the tone you guys are talking about...that is why I asked for a specific thread...if I've read over a 1,000 threads here so far and haven't seen it, how is it I am supposed to "find one"?

Deejo kindly PM'd me a couple and I am reading them now.

Entropy - it isn't that I doubt this occurs...it is that I haven't seen it yet. But like I said in my above post, perhaps I just don't read into things the way some of you do.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Ok so I need to man-up and get some work done.

All I can say is if you do not like the Alpha / Beta concept then do not use it.

One way or the other it is part of social conditioning.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy...I already read dozens of threads here every day, and I do not come across ones with the tone you guys are talking about...that is why I asked for a specific thread...if I've read over a 1,000 threads here so far and haven't seen it, how is it I am supposed to "find one"?
> 
> Deejo kindly PM'd me a couple and I am reading them now.
> 
> Entropy - it isn't that I doubt this occurs...it is that I haven't seen it yet. But like I said in my above post, perhaps I just don't read into things the way some of you do.


You specifically read in CWI?

Glad he is helping you. He is a good guy.


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## Topical storm (Mar 30, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> What a silly question. As if I were to suggest some completely new vocabulary instead of plain, pre-existing english.
> 
> But then again, the money is in the invention of a new pseudo-science so maybe I should re-think that.


What a silly assumption, as If I'm suggesting you to come up with completely new vocab, not in pre-existing english.

But isn't it sillier to seek out cult mythology discussions ad nauseam if one deems it a cult illogical at its base?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you point me to one, Deejo? Honestly haven't seen one. I don't know of any books for women's (specifically) self-improvement that talk about how men hold them down and how they must resist the desire to be men pleasers. I totally agree there might be such books, and actually, I want to read them so I can be pissed about that, too.


We can certainly discuss the ones I sent you via PM, or you can just go to the search function and search for 'feminist' 'feminism'

I'd prefer if we could avoid the rat-hole of whether or not there are women on the boards that think men hold power over them and 'want to keep them in their place'.

The pat advice I try to give either gender, is to not be a passenger in your relationship. Be proactive, be aggressive, steer it, nurture it, warm it up, cool it down ... and if necessary, be prepared to walk away from it once it becomes clear that your partner; isn't a partner at all.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Perhaps it is just my thinking, but when I read or hear about a wife OR husband who has been crappy to their spouse, I just consider it like "yes, because people are crappy sometimes". I don't consider it like "yes, because MEN are like that" or "yes, because WOMEN are like that".
> 
> But when people group the gender together to sound this way...instead of individually blaming that individual crappy spouse regardless of their gender for their own crappy behavior....I don't get it.
> 
> ...


Some people don't want happiness. There are "bad" people in this world too. People who want to debase, humiliate, control, dominate their relationship partner. To use them for all they are worth.

There are self centered people, the most hyper self-centered people have zero apathy towards others, and do not care how their actions affect you. In the worst case, the person may want to cause you pain and hurt intentionally.

And the more you cry, the more you point it out, the more their ego is fed behind it.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Deejo said:


> We can certainly discuss the ones I sent you via PM, or you can just go to the search function and search for 'feminist' 'feminism'
> 
> I'd prefer if we could avoid the rat-hole of whether or not there are women on the boards that think men hold power over them and 'want to keep them in their place'.
> 
> The pat advice I try to give either gender, is to not be a passenger in your relationship. Be proactive, be aggressive, steer it, nurture it, warm it up, cool it down ... and if necessary, be prepared to walk away from it once it becomes clear that your partner; isn't a partner at all.


I'm kinda scared these days to say or mention the "F" word... But keep in mind, there is degrees to it just like there is to anything else, and the worst degree of it thinks that all men should suffer endlessly.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

There are ALARMINGLY similar circumstances in many of the cases involving a spouse that is too 'nice' and 'accommodating', and tolerant, of a partner that doesn't reciprocate their love, devotion and affection and in fact actively rejects it, humiliates and de-values instead.

For all of our talk about individuals and circumstances, the behaviors, occurrences, and outcomes are quite literally almost cookie-cutter.

It's very unfortunate. But also helps illustrates why these things get lumped or grouped into the categories they do.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, those similarities are the reason why I don't see the need to box men OR women into the categories as "the mean ones", when the other was "the nice one".

I'm done with this point. Thank you for bantering with me. I see I will not be able to get anywhere with it but it doesn't matter...it is just an observation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm starting to think that a lot of men that believe that their relationship issues are caused by Beta behavior could be incorrect. Perhaps they are in relationships with unappreciative selfish spouses. I say this because when I look around me I see plenty of guys that most on here would classify as Beta in happy marriages with loving spouses (at least it appears this way on the outside).


Don't confuse alpha with chestbeater. Alpha merely means KNOWING what you will or won't accept in your life, your boundaries, and enacting consequences if someone else tramples those boundaries. It needn't be done in a loud voice or with anger or in a harmful way; more like you calmly say "I'm not ok with that" and enacting the consequence.

Your friend sounds more like someone who isn't beta so much as has low self esteem. Which means he will continue to PICK princesses, to fill that hole in him, the strong personality he wishes he was. (read Getting The Love You Want to understand this better)


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Entropy3000 said:


> Actually all dogs have the right to be respected and stand up for themselves.
> 
> So women should have not fought for equallity then? To try to be something they were not. I see. Indeed many men thought that was silly. That women should not worry their pretty little heads about such things. See how condescending that is? So lets keep these Beta men down. After all they can be controlled. They have been programmed. They need to know their place. They are the little dog and can never really be that Rottweiler. Really?
> 
> ...


Ummm... no that's not what I was saying at all.....


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Don't confuse alpha with chestbeater. Alpha merely means KNOWING what you will or won't accept in your life, your boundaries, and enacting consequences if someone else tramples those boundaries. It needn't be done in a loud voice or with anger or in a harmful way; more like you calmly say "I'm not ok with that" and enacting the consequence.
> 
> Your friend sounds more like someone who isn't beta so much as has low self esteem. Which means he will continue to PICK princesses, to fill that hole in him, the strong personality he wishes he was. (read Getting The Love You Want to understand this better)


What does "pick princesses" mean? It sounds like it's meant to be somewhat derogatory or that it's not the best choice.

Is it choosing someone who is going to be entitled by nature and having a lot of side action going on that he shouldn't be tolerating?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Some people don't want happiness. There are "bad" people in this world too. People who want to debase, humiliate, control, dominate their relationship partner. To use them for all they are worth.
> 
> There are self centered people, the most hyper self-centered people have zero apathy towards others, and do not care how their actions affect you. In the worst case, the person may want to cause you pain and hurt intentionally.


Ah yes, but this is also the alpha that is apparently so attractive, just viewed through a slightly different lens. 

The alpha list
Strong > Dominating, Overpowering
In charge > Controlling, Autocratic
Strategic > Calculating, Machiavellian
Not worried about others opinions > Selfish, Narcissitic
Independent > Aloof, Cold
Risk taker > Reckless, Irresponsible
Ambitious > Power hungry
Determined > Stubborn, Obsessed

In contrast, the poor beta often gets a bad rap:
Weak > Unguarded, Open
Passive > Easy-going, Accepting
Lazy > Relaxed, Unconcerned
Needy > Affectionate, Caring
Indecisive > Open-minded, Tolerant
Meek > Humble, Courteous
Follower > Team-player, Loyal


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Ah yes, but this is also the alpha that is apparently so attractive, just viewed through a slightly different lens.
> 
> The alpha list
> Strong > Dominating, Overpowering
> ...


Both extremes are a poor excuse for a man.

A quality man has a balance of traits. An Alpha / Beta blend. These are just off the cuff. But the bottomline is that while this man can be trusted, he is not to be trifled with either. He is the person you go to when the sh!t hits he fan. 

Strong > Willing to fight for those that cannot fight for themselves. i.e. SEAL Creed.
In charge > Competent. A Leader. Can also be a team player but not afraid to lead. They have the ability to play the needed role.
Strategic > Strategic thinking is all well and good but Tactics win.
Confident > Not arrogant. A confident person does care about others views. 
Independent > Will to fight for what is right even if alone. Comfortable in their own skin. Integrity. But this person can indeed choose to be part of a team. They make the team better just by being their
Risk taker > Willing to take risks based on the value proposition. 
Ambitious > A pioneer. Passionate.
Determined > Tenacious. If the stakes are high they wil never give up.
Compassinate > Cares about others and often will put themselves in harms way for them.

----------

On a personal level I am seeking to improve on these major virtues in my life which I consider to be important for a quality man that has balance of Alpha and Beta traits. 

Rectitude ( Justice / Integrity )
Courage ( Putting what is right over fear. To be willing to act in a just way, even if standing alone. )
Benevolence ( Benevolence / Mercy that comes form a position of strength is pure and honorable )
Respect ( Respecting others is not arrogant but confident )
Honesty
Honor
Loyalty ( A man's word is his bond. He is someone to be trusted. You can count on them. )


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Ah yes, but this is also the alpha that is apparently so attractive, just viewed through a slightly different lens.


But isn't that true for any quality? Any behavior taken to the extreme is problematic, regardless of what you call it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But isn't that true for any quality? Any behavior taken to the extreme is problematic, regardless of what you call it.


Sure. But my point isn't really about the extremes. It's to suggest that the alpha/beta thing isn't a continuum of strong to weak, where you just have to find the right mix. 

Instead it seems to me that the constant emphasis on the wonderfulness of alpha is essentially aspiring for a world full of narcissistic sociopaths. And dismissing the 'beta' as incapable of being attractive or appealing is just flat out wrong. And it's not because he "has the right mix of alpha" to balance it out. It's because the traits assigned to him are or can be attractive in and of themselves.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Rectitude ( Justice / Integrity )
> Courage ( Putting what is right over fear. To be willing to act in a just way, even if standing alone. )
> Benevolence ( Benevolence / Mercy that comes form a position of strength is pure and honorable )
> Respect ( Respecting others is not arrogant but confident )
> ...


A wonderful list of character traits! Don't see how thinking of any of them as alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, etc., helps even the slightest iota.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> What does "pick princesses" mean? It sounds like it's meant to be somewhat derogatory or that it's not the best choice.
> 
> Is it choosing someone who is going to be entitled by nature and having a lot of side action going on that he shouldn't be tolerating?


There's an amazing book called Getting The Love You Want. It talks about your childhood, and what things you missed in it. Like, if your mom never got down on the ground and played with you, or if your dad criticized you. If you missed out on a nonjudgmental dad, it's going to alter who you 'pick' subconsciously as a mate. You pick people who you think will 'heal' the part of you that your family messed up on. So if you grew up with plummeting self esteem and increasing doubt, you may seek out a strong partner who has those qualities you wish you had; you subconsciously think if you pick them, it will rub off on you or else you'll vicariously enjoy their strength. 

And we KEEP picking the same 'person' - until we get smart and start fixing ourselves so we no longer NEED that type of person.

[Note: This is a GENERALIZATION, folks, that may explain certain people's problems.]As a low-key man, you may fantasize about being stronger, or a stud, or whatever and thus will only pick women who fit THAT mold (think Brangelina). Unfortunately, you don't have the natural ability to DEAL with that strong a woman; so you become an appeaser, Giving more and more in the hopes she'll stay; and she becomes more and more entitled until, eventually, she becomes bored with you and goes looking for that strong man you wish you were.

Note that this man is different from a confident quiet man. 

Anyway, that's what I mean by picking princesses. I am NOT saying that's what OP did, just that it's a possibility. My brother was an excellent case study in this - 3 different women, all just like each other, all screwed up, all dragged him down in their neediness. Until he met his wife, in his 30s, who was COMPLETELY different from his 'type,' and thank God for that.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Both extremes are a poor excuse for a man.
> 
> ----------
> 
> ...


I personally really like this list. I can only add one thing which is a virtue of mine.

Integrity.

It's been my long standing belief in my "short" 45 years on this Earth, that if you do not have integrity, then you have nothing. I certainly don't mean that as a slight Entropy, because your list is solid. I merely wanted to add my final word to that list.

It's something that, if everyone could just grasp in the slightest, the world would be such a better f'ng place.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Sure. But my point isn't really about the extremes. It's to suggest that the alpha/beta thing isn't a continuum of strong to weak, where you just have to find the right mix.


Your post seems to suggest that alpha is always good and beta is always bad. By themselves these traits are neither good nor bad (assuming no extreme behavior). I think that misunderstands what I (and others) are trying to say. The mix that a man is comfortable with is the key. If things are not working, checking to see if you have 



> Instead it seems to me that the constant emphasis on the wonderfulness of alpha is essentially aspiring for a world full of narcissistic sociopaths. And dismissing the 'beta' as incapable of being attractive or appealing is just flat out wrong. And it's not because he "has the right mix of alpha" to balance it out. It's because the traits assigned to him are or can be attractive in and of themselves.


Again, that is in large part because of the type of folks who seek out this advice. They tend to be men who have gotten too far out of balance on the beta side. These types of men do need to add more "alpha" type behaviors. If those that were too "alpha" were the majority on this site, I know that I would recommend that they work on balancing things with more "beta" behavior.

Sure, "beta" traits are attractive. But if that is all a guy has, he is not likely attractive to any but a very small subset of women. SA refers to her husband as "beta" yet there are any number of "alpha" traits that he demonstrates daily. He in fact does have balance, even if the "beta" traits are what mainly attract her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or, it could look like this:
Strong > NOT Dominating, Overpowering, but rather speaks his piece and is confident enough not to have to dominate or overpower
In charge > NOT Controlling, Autocratic, but rather takes charge when others won't and creates a team of people to accomplish something
Strategic > NOT Calculating, Machiavellian, but rather doesn't just collect a paycheck or manipulate his wife, instead thinking things through and determining smarter ways to accomplish things
Not worried about others opinions > NOT Selfish, Narcissistic, but rather confident and understanding that it doesn't matter what others think, we are each responsible for our own happiness
Independent > NOT Aloof, Cold, but rather able to go play basketball while his wife goes out with her friends and show he loves her but doesn't have to be glued to her side
Risk taker > NOT Reckless, Irresponsible, but willing to up the stakes when he sees a better result
Ambitious > NOT Power hungry, but rather not expecting his family to be stuck on his minimum-wage earnings as in their first years of marriage
Determined > NOT Stubborn, Obsessed, but rather calmly and confidently sure of what he wants to get out of life for himself and his family


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> How can you be attracted to him as it seems he has no Care in the world about being more dominant and alpha. How can u even desire this man inside of you?


I'm assuming you are Joking here Daddy... 

But anyway....to prove your point is valid... just days ago on another thread...a female poster said to me she WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO STAND a man like my husband.... so Yeah.. many women DO feel THIS WAY...I'm really not ignorant of this fact... but true, what seems to turn many of these women ON... would be a turn OFF for me, hell ...even "deal breakers". 



DaddyLongShanks said:


> Going "Alpha", if you have been doormatted and *cuckholded* in a relationship is a viable strategy. Being supportive and loving is not, and will get you really hurt.


  When I post on here...It's NEVER to downplay that these men need helpful advice/ "aids" to help them save their marriages...Heck I even agree with Athol Kay's stance to use 
*Mild flirting* with other women to catch the wayward wife's attention (can't remember what that concept is called- women want to damn him for that..NOT I)... 

Some *jealousy* does the wayward GOOD and if not.... it's a sign the relationship is DEAD.....so just leave her in the dust....I also feel men should Divorce over a sexless marriage...Screw that... life is too short.... "*No More Mr Nice guy*" should be thrown at him... and so should "*Married Man's Sex Life*"....I have no problems with either of these books...Praise them in fact. 



> *DaddyLongShanks said:* Some people don't want happiness. *There are "bad" people in this world too. People who want to debase, humiliate, control, dominate their relationship partner. To use them for all they are worth.*
> 
> *There are self centered people, the most hyper self-centered people have zero apathy towards others, and do not care how their actions affect you. In the worst case, the person may want to cause you pain and hurt intentionally*.
> 
> And the more you cry, the more you point it out, the more their ego is fed behind it.


I am of the belief that the most "giving" of people...the "NICE" people....those kind souls among us....should be hyper vigilant to only marry others who are GIVERS, who have shown empathy in their walk with others....and a self awareness in how they deal with conflict/ issues....any red flags here...you could be in for a hell ride...and any sign of dishonesty in dating...... loose [email protected]#$%^ why do this to yourself ..  

It's these kinds of stories on here I want to .... cause my thoughts are always with the GIVING more loving spouse... too often they are TOO trusting and get BIT badly... It's very disheartening to me personally... I so want them to triumph...do better for themselves, as they deserve so much MORE...I have a thing for the underdog... 



Caribbean Man said:


> Lets suppose he had the same type of traits as her , do you think the relationship would work the same way?
> I doubt it.
> 
> Lets say she was an exact replica of him , do you think the same measure of compatibility would have existed?
> Hardly likely.


 One would be *TOO* ... 

And the other would be TOO uneventful / TOO CALM.... we've talked about this scenario a handful of times...... I also LOVE my husbands DRY sense of humor...many people's humor downright annoys me.. but his doesn't.... I eat it UP.... he also thinks I am a Riot...so we keep each other  anyway.



> I think many of you all looking at this in a vacuum.
> What is important is not what other people think, but what works for _your_ relationship.


 I get hung up on what others think at times.... I'm not going to say it's a sign of insecurity so much as ....I think I just like to argue and throw my 2 cents around (forgive me please!). At least...he could care less ...he's told me he doesn't care if someone called him a Pu$$y, he'd just say he was a happy pu$$y. He takes it all in stride. (and NO, this never happened, just an extreme example) 



lovesherman said:


> *I can tell you how as my guy is very similar to Mr. SA. I am aroused by his romantic nature. He has very deep feelings, and he makes me a priority in his life*. He has an engineering background with the spirit of an old soul. The perfect combination for me. * I respect and admire my husband.* He possesses emotional strength without having to beat his chest about how dominant he is.


 Love your post LovesHerMan...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

always_alone said:


> A wonderful list of character traits! Don't see how thinking of any of them as alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, etc., helps even the slightest iota.


Using generalizations to explain them appears to help some people. If true, then what is the problem in doing so?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ..Heck I even agree with Athol Kay's stance to use
> *Mild flirting* with other women to catch the wayward wife's attention (can't remember what that concept is called- women want to damn him for that..NOT I)...


I've been giving this advice for years to betrayed spouses: When your spouse comes to pick up the kids for their visit, be dressed to the nines. Have on perfume/cologne. Have your keys in your hand. Leave at the same time with a BIG FAT SMILE on your face. If you don't have friends to visit, go to the library or a movie - but GET OUT and do NOT tell them where you're going; just grin and say 'got plans!' and leave.

NOTHING bugs a cheater more than imagining YOU going out and getting more/better than THEY are.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> I can tell you how as my guy is very similar to Mr. SA. I am aroused by his romantic nature. He has very deep feelings, and he makes me a priority in his life. He has an engineering background with the spirit of an old soul. The perfect combination for me. I respect and admire my husband. He possesses emotional strength without having to beat his chest about how dominant he is.


Perfect example of an alpha male.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SomedayDig said:


> I personally really like this list. I can only add one thing which is a virtue of mine.
> 
> Integrity.
> 
> ...


And these things I listed are the seven virtues of the Bushido code. It is idealistic but it is something worthy IMO to aspire to.

Rectitude is actually defined as Justice / Integrity and is considered the most important virtue.

rec·ti·tude 
/ˈrektəˌto͞od/
Noun
Morally correct behavior or thinking; righteousness.
Synonyms
honesty - integrity - probity - straightforwardness

So we agree. Integrity IS the most important thing for a man ... for anyone. When we refer to a man finding his center we are talking about the essence of his being. He must maitain this integrity.

They spin it as rectitude because they feel that do what is right. What is just is critical to a man's integrity. Certainly what is right can be subjective of course.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your post seems to suggest that alpha is always good and beta is always bad.



:scratchhead: Not sure how you got this from reading my post ...
As I recall, I called the alphas narcissistic sociopaths.

Mostly, I was just trying to challenge this idea that 'alpha' is attractive and 'beta' is not because I think it's bs. 

But I don't really want to argue the point too much because I find the whole alpha/beta thing pretty incoherent and meaningless.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> Or, it could look like this:
> Strong > NOT Dominating, Overpowering, but rather speaks his piece and is confident enough not to have to dominate or overpower
> In charge > NOT Controlling, Autocratic, but rather takes charge when others won't and creates a team of people to accomplish something
> Strategic > NOT Calculating, Machiavellian, but rather doesn't just collect a paycheck or manipulate his wife, instead thinking things through and determining smarter ways to accomplish things
> ...


I totally agree. A quality man does not have to resort to these other weaknesses. Always having to be "in control" is a lack of confidence.

A quality man or woman can deal with situations because they have more tools to work with.

Well put.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Using generalizations to explain them appears to help some people. If true, then what is the problem in doing so?


I have nothing against helping people. I just think it would be a lot simpler to just say, "stop being a doormat and letting him/her walk all over you." 

Instead there's this whole dubious theory of personas, complete with detailed accounts of what is attractive and what is not that may or may not apply to any given individual. And ultimately the "man up" advice seems to boil down to "be confident, don't be doormat". None of the weak points of alpha are ever mentioned, and none of the spectacular traits assigned to betas (loyalty, teamwork, caring, conscientiousness, service) are ever acknowledged.

So what is the value add?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> And these things I listed are the seven virtues of the Bushido code. It is idealistic but it is something worthy IMO to aspire to.
> 
> Rectitude is actually defined as Justice / Integrity and is considered the most important virtue.
> 
> ...


I noticed that was Bushido. I, myself, have followed Iaido for many, many years. Like a modern sniper...one draw, one win.

I practice with my bokken daily and try to live a zen filled life.

Balance. It is all about balance.

I know it might be hard to see through my anti-"alpha" commentaries, but I do get the idea behind it. I simply think too many who push it only push. 

PS...one of the first commitments I made to my family upon deciding to move to Florida is that ALL of us will begin formal training of Wushu. Regret said she might prefer the Tai Chi training at the center, but at least we can all train together. The teacher at the school is King of Eagle Claw Kung Fu...a title no one else may claim while he is alive. I am excited for the opportunity.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> *Perfect example of an alpha male*.


See, I don't know that THIS Is true... we all define ALPHA in our own WAYS I suppose... getting back to Wysh's post (Below)- he made a good point....



WyshIknew said:


> I get a little mixed up sometimes as to what is alpha and beta.* It seems to change depending on who you are conversing with on this board.*
> 
> It seems to range from;
> 
> ...



.. IF *Integrity* & Lovesherman's post = ALPHA....Hey my man is right up there with hers....the leaders of the Pack....but ya know what... I can't do it ....

So here I stand defending the Betas yet again... TO me...*ALPHA* = when a man is DESIRED by many women tickling their panties... if this is lacking, he is not tipped ALPHA...as it's about "excitement"... NOT ROMANCE, not his priorities, not even Integrity....

Integrity does NOT cause EXCITEMENT... though we generally will RESPECT it in people, but then again, many abuse it.. if all those with integrity got all the women....OH what a different world we would be living in!! Can we all agree ?? 



Remember these definitions >>>> 



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.

I know with my husband...he has a Cool QUIET confidence...

*But* .... 

*1. *you couldn't PAY him enough to be a Boss (Leader) - not interested.... 

*2.* We are not "wealthy" - unless that = in spirit.. which it doesn't...it means CASH/ 6 figures/ drives the mercedes/ takes luxurious cruises / buys his woman diamonds... 

*3.* His Testosterone could be higher for his age, some of the older men at work are physically stronger (I know this bugs him) so NO "Beast" here...

*4..* He could give a rats ass about POWER ...success to him is a happy family life with all the bills paid, a few vacations a year... a Simple life will do. 

The only thing, in my opinion, he has going for him... is I think he is decently good looking (if he has his contacts in)....and I'm not going to say his genes are faulty...cause we have half a dozen very healthy children.

When it comes to Beta traits... however...every trait listed....he embodies ... no lack.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> *Life's a process. You don't reach your final destination immediately; you don't achieve your goals in one step. You constantly improve. A little better today than yesterday. That's all it takes to get there. *
> 
> And, if people make fun of you along the way, because you aren't there yet--so what? There just trying to tear you down.


:iagree:

I LOVE this!
Its one of my personal credo.
I call it 
" Linear progression," and whenever the opportunity arises , seize it.
In a game of cards, every hand can either be a winner or looser.
It depends on probabilities , chance and how you take advantage of it.
Life can be compared to that in some ways. 

I firmly believe in reaching out a helping hand to anybody who's struggling.

Sadly though, one of the most important lesson I have learnt in life is that whenever a person decides to seriously work on himself and leave old habits behind in a effort to improve and change himself, there would arise layers and layers of resistance by people they know.
Phalanx of nay sayers , trying to discourage him.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Hmmm... since I'm no longer married or in a relationship I can only use my work-life to reflect on my status, so hmmm...



> Strong > NOT Dominating, Overpowering, but rather speaks his piece and is confident enough not to have to dominate or overpower


At work I know when to pull the boss card, but most of the time I prefer to maintain my open door policy and flat management structure, does that make me weak?


> In charge > NOT Controlling, Autocratic, but rather takes charge when others won't and creates a team of people to accomplish something


I'm only autocratic with casual staff/new workers, permanent staff know their jobs so I'm more democratic.


> Strategic > NOT Calculating, Machiavellian, but rather doesn't just collect a paycheck or manipulate his wife, instead thinking things through and determining smarter ways to accomplish things


You have to be strategic and calculating in business 


> Not worried about others opinions > NOT Selfish, Narcissistic, but rather confident and understanding that it doesn't matter what others think, we are each responsible for our own happiness


You have to worry about others opinions especially the real boss; customers so lol


> Independent > NOT Aloof, Cold, but rather able to go play basketball while his wife goes out with her friends and show he loves her but doesn't have to be glued to her side


If I have to do everything myself at work which happens when people chuck sickies I'll do it alright but I'll be p-ssed!


> Risk taker > NOT Reckless, Irresponsible, but willing to up the stakes when he sees a better result


I gamble and I win 


> Ambitious > NOT Power hungry, but rather not expecting his family to be stuck on his minimum-wage earnings as in their first years of marriage


Not really ambitious anymore, now I really can't be f--ked even making money since the seperation.


> Determined > NOT Stubborn, Obsessed, but rather calmly and confidently sure of what he wants to get out of life for himself and his family


Nope, don't really care about anything anymore.

Wonder if in my current state I'm beta?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> There are self centered people, the most hyper self-centered people have zero apathy towards others, and do not care how their actions affect you. In the worst case, the person may want to cause you pain and hurt intentionally.
> 
> And the more you cry, the more you point it out, the more their ego is fed behind it.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
The playing field is not always level.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I know with my husband...he has a Cool QUIET confidence...
> 
> *But* ....
> 
> ...


SA, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post a while back about your husband not being aggressive/rough (i.e. alpha) enough in the bedroom, and that it was a point of frustration in your marriage?

I saw a documentary on the rock band "The Who." Roger Daltrey was lamenting the death of Keith Moon, and said if Moon's personality hadn't of been so wild and reckless that he probably wouldn't not have overdosed and died. Then Daltrey said something profound. Moon's drumming style (which was highly unconventional) was an extension of his personality. You could not have had one without the other. 

A Keith Moon with a more responsible personality would have lived longer, but he would have never been a great drummer. Moon's irresponsible personality was certainly responsible for him dying young, but it was also the key factor in him being one of rock's great drummers. 

I'm trying to tread lightly here, as I don't mean any insult of any kind. I'm sure your husband is a great guy, but it is slightly ironic that you use him as an example of why a man can be beta and still be a perfect husband when it's probably the beta aspects of his personality that prevent him from being more aggressive in the bedroom in the ways you desire.

If he worked to become more alpha in his life in general, then being more aggressive in the bedroom would probably come more naturally to him. But, since he is more beta in his everyday life, being more laid back in the bedroom comes more naturally to him, and he finds being aggressive to be more difficult.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> And we KEEP picking the same 'person' -* until we get smart and start fixing ourselves so we no longer NEED that type of person.*


OP,
This^^^is the nexus between the " Alpha - Beta " personality traits theory and interpersonal , dysfunctional relationships .


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SomedayDig said:


> I noticed that was Bushido. I, myself, have followed Iaido for many, many years. Like a modern sniper...one draw, one win.
> 
> I practice with my bokken daily and try to live a zen filled life.
> 
> ...


What has always impressed me most is the spiritual side of martial arts. For a brief period in my life I studied under a hachidan. He stressed very much the traditional aspects. I was drawn to this. I have since felt I can apply this is other pursuits. I feel the philosophy of the "way of the warrior" can have value in ones life. At least for me. It has certainly validated much of my approach to my earlier life. It resonates with me. I do see a real balance to it.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I knew there was something I liked about you Entropy. It comes through in your writings. The spiritual side of martial arts to me is most important. Without it you are merely a fighter. Maybe even a good one. However, without that balance...without that "do", you won't be whole as a martial artist.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blue Firefly said:


> SA, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you post a while back about your husband not being aggressive/rough (i.e. alpha) enough in the bedroom, and that it was a point of frustration in your marriage?


 Yes I did, a few threads in fact, it's not just one.... You are absolutely Correct ~ and I thank you for bringing it up -- because it FEEDS into the very heart & meaning of this thread ....Why I had to agree with Reformed Hubby with his opening thoughts.

But I must mention... for the 1st 19 yrs of our marriage, I never cared about this, didn't even enter my brain... perfectly content with him & our sex life - trust me, when I am not content, I can cause some trouble... Never did. Let's just say, an increase in Hormones & Mid life can do strange things to a woman...so I've learned. 

Don't worry about treading light with me.. go for it...say what you [email protected]# I will be honest in my reply- even if it makes me look bad. 

Should I divorce him over this 1 little thing - when everything else about him I love, adore, and feel on the clouds about.......I have an orgasm every single encounter, I eat up the Romance, his sensitive nature in giving... he never turns me down, no man could love me more...should I trade this in for a wicked roll in the hay with a Keith Moon. 

Wouldn't that make me a selfish wi*ch ya know... I've taken HEAT on this forum for wanting him to UP the ALPHA here...because I have been reminded THIS IS NOT WHO HE IS.... that I AM expecting too much....accept him for what he gives and how he loves.... 

So tell me... fellow TAMers....who is right ?? 

To weight this issue....I'd surly be a FOOL to leave a good man who shines in everything else under the sun over the fact he has trouble pushing me up against a wall and throwing me down on the bed and TAKING me..... I do those things to him...(and he loves [email protected]#)... but yeah.. he struggles... I throw a hissy fit now and then....then we have Hot make up Sex....it's our way.. call us whacked if you will. He still adores & loves me -has even told me he WOULDN't Change me, cause then I wouldn't be "ME"... 

I can not explain to you why this is difficult for him... other than it's just NOT WHO HE IS... 

I can NOT, however, say he isn't willing to TRY TO be what I want... Even last night he said something to me about wanting to BE everything I want... I know he means it from the bottom of his being....I can't trample this... but the struggle is obvious. 

... I can easily do this stuff cause I have a naturally aggressive personality .... Ask me to be patient/ passive.. ...Now THERE is MY struggle...Can't freaking do it very well without a contorted look on my face if I am angry...I'm a dead give away...

Guess what, he can easily put up with me ... and I can put up with HIM... our differences allow this somehow... so yeah, he misses the mark in THIS one thing I crave....where I miss it in some ways.. are we perfect... NO! But why downplay how much we love... it's not a LIE or fabrication either, there is a well of gratitude for what we have....

Ya know....a little ALPHA in bed... once in a while might be FUN.. He is purely a "Making LOVE" man... He doesn't even like the word "F**k", would never use this in the bedroom. Goes against who he is. 



> Then Daltrey said something profound. *Moon's drumming style (which was highly unconventional) was an extension of his personality. You could not have had one without the other.*
> 
> A Keith Moon with a more responsible personality would have lived longer, but he would have never been a great drummer. Moon's irresponsible personality was certainly responsible for him dying young, but it was also the key factor in him being one of rock's great drummers.


 I agree with everything said there..and just imagine Moon trying to be Meek calm and laid back.. HA HA HA.... I bet he was wicked & almost dangerous in bed to.... would I want a man like THAT in my life...absolutely HELL freaking NO!.... I can not STAND wrecklessness ... He would far irritate me more than turn me on.... But yeah....great drummer! Personality a HUGE part of it... absolutely. 



> I'm trying to tread lightly here, as I don't mean any insult of any kind. I'm sure your husband is a great guy, but it is slightly ironic that you use him as an example of why a man can be beta and still be a perfect husband when it's probably the beta aspects of his personality that prevent him from being more aggressive in the bedroom in the ways you desire.


 Again... when should we accept someone for who they are? Many men who are aggressive in the bedroom struggle with the qualities that MY Husband shines in/ comes as naturally as breathing to him..... so if I had to choose one or the other...I know I am with the type that would satisfy me the most...I would overwhelmingly still choose ROMANCE, the "making love"- his being turned on by the aggressive IN ME (as a majority of aggressive men want* subtle* in their woman - I'd feel I had to push a part of myself down in order to turn them on...screw that [email protected]#$ 

As you can see, I have weighed ALL sides of this.... I have no desire to zap or take away any of his sensitive loving nature / his being my "best friend" / what a great listener he is/ and doting Father...in order to UP some aggressiveness in him.... We simply can't BE it all...

I don't believe every man is perfectly balanced, no matter how their wives want to say they are (they are overlooking something out of love -just as I do- except I don't skimp on admitting he is more Beta)....we all struggle somewhere... I don't think any of us has "arrived"....



> If he worked to become more alpha in his life in general, then being more aggressive in the bedroom would probably come more naturally to him. But, since he is more beta in his everyday life, being more laid back in the bedroom comes more naturally to him, and he finds being aggressive to be more difficult.


 I did a thread about making a "spice jar" .... to give him snippets of things I want him to DO to me... to work this out......we agreed that's a viable PLAN......he keeps asking me when I am going to get to it.....obviously it's not even THAT HUGE of a thing for me cause I never even started it yet!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> So we agree. Integrity IS the most important thing for a man ... for anyone. When we refer to a man finding his center we are talking about the essence of his being. He must maitain this integrity.


This from the man who said that "be yourself" is bad advice ...

Is it the "just' you object to (i.e. 'just be yourself') because it gives the impression that it's sufficient to do nothing even if you happen to be a dirtball slimebag?

But do we ever mean that when we advise people to "be themselves"?

I guess the question then becomes how we view the self. In this biological determinist age, we tend to reduce to random firings and basic drives. But even neuroscientists and animal ethologists are finding out otherwise.

Sorry to wax philosophical and go off-topic, but it strikes me as interesting and somehow relevant ...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

always_alone said:


> :scratchhead: Not sure how you got this from reading my post ...
> As I recall, I called the alphas narcissistic sociopaths.
> 
> Mostly, I was just trying to challenge this idea that 'alpha' is attractive and 'beta' is not because I think it's bs.


Poor posting on my part, as I meant to say what you posted above. Alpha is not always attractive. 



> But I don't really want to argue the point too much because I find the whole alpha/beta thing pretty incoherent and meaningless.


LOL. And yet here you are arguing it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

always_alone said:


> I have nothing against helping people. I just think it would be a lot simpler to just say, "stop being a doormat and letting him/her walk all over you."


Sure. But that is a goal, not a process. Merely stating a goal does not work all that well for most people. People need help to understand the process, and think out steps. Telling my 12 year old to go to college is not very helpful. Walking him through the steps and thought process is.



> Instead there's this whole dubious theory of personas, complete with detailed accounts of what is attractive and what is not that may or may not apply to any given individual. And ultimately the "man up" advice seems to boil down to "be confident, don't be doormat". None of the weak points of alpha are ever mentioned, and none of the spectacular traits assigned to betas (loyalty, teamwork, caring, conscientiousness, service) are ever acknowledged.


Again, you seem to assume that your selective interpretation is all that there is. The weak points alpha are mentioned, but as I have noted before, the people who come here generally don't have the problem of too many alpha traits. They are door mats who need to stand up for themselves and make decisions. There natural timidness prevents them for implementing a lot of the "alpha problems." Further, the good points of "beta" are mentioned. I and many others talk about balance - maintaining much of those great beta qualities while adding some alpha to the mix. 

You, and others, continually dismiss this advice because may not apply to everyone. True enough. Do you dismiss all other advice for the same reason? Does a theory need to work for 100% of the population to be useful? Again, it is a tool. Just because a screw driver makes an awful saw does not mean it is a worthless tool.



> So what is the value add?


It provides a framework with some basic categories so that they can understand and start the process. Introductory physics in high school is technically inaccurate in a lot of areas. It deals in approximations and simplifies a lot of theories. This is done because the students need to understand broad principles and theories before diving into the details.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Or "I was young and foolish and believed I knew what I was doing when I chose my wife, but now I see I ignored every red flag"._

:smthumbup: Who you choose is key. 

The Alpha/Beta advice is useful and I see the point of most of it, but the thought of having to use, as G. Bush once said "strategery" to keep a wife interested, depresses me.

How about the couple having love, mutual respect, good boundaries with the opposite sex, commitment to the vows and being the best people they can be?

Sometimes the answer is simple: One or both of the people in the marriage/relationship chose badly and no amount of working at the marriage or on ourselves is going to fix it.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Integrity.

It's been my long standing belief in my "short" 45 years on this Earth, that if you do not have integrity, then you have nothing. I certainly don't mean that as a slight Entropy, because your list is solid. I merely wanted to add my final word to that list.

It's something that, if everyone could just grasp in the slightest, the world would be such a better f'ng place_

Yes. And a well developed conscience. If you marry someone without those two qualities, whatever letter of the greek alphabet you are isn't going to matter one bit.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I have nothing against helping people. I just think it would be a lot simpler to just say, "stop being a doormat and letting him/her walk all over you."


Of course its a lot simpler to say " stop being a doormat " especially when one does not understand the intricate and complex workings of the human mind , nor has ever been in the unfortunate position of being a doormat.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I will disagree. Most of us don't come as a completely healthy package with no FOO issues. You can SAY you just want a person with integrity. But what if that person is conflict avoidant? What if he is manic depressive? What if he's a closet cross-dresser? Angry? Integrity and consciences are great, but if your or your spouses's FOO stuff overrides it, you still have a crappy relationship.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SA, have you and your H ever gone to a sex therapist? They can help with this issue you're having.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> _Or "I was young and foolish and believed I knew what I was doing when I chose my wife, but now I see I ignored every red flag"._
> 
> :smthumbup: Who you choose is key.
> 
> The Alpha/Beta advice is useful and I see the point of most of it, but the thought of having to use, as G. Bush once said "strategery" to keep a wife interested, depresses me.


You don't use strategery to court your wife? You don't look at what she likes and plan a fun time or a gift based on that? You don't observe her moods, words and actions and try to figure out what is going on when things are off? I suspect you do, all of what are part of what you say you don't want to do.



> How about the couple having love, mutual respect, good boundaries with the opposite sex, commitment to the vows and being the best people they can be?


All great goals. But merely stating goals, with no plan on getting there, is not usually all that helpful.



> Sometimes the answer is simple: One or both of the people in the marriage/relationship chose badly and no amount of working at the marriage or on ourselves is going to fix it.


Absolutely correct. But to know if this is the case, you usually have to try (and fail at) other solutions first.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

always_alone said:


> This from the man who said that "be yourself" is bad advice ...
> 
> Is it the "just' you object to (i.e. 'just be yourself') because it gives the impression that it's sufficient to do nothing even if you happen to be a dirtball slimebag?
> 
> ...


The persona that people perceive may or may not be a true reflection of ones self. I believe one should strive for these being fairly in sync. Now I really do mean fairly in sync and not continuosly exactly the same. Why? Because I believe in the journey, the struggle, the pursuit of the next level of who we are becoming. I call it a struggle but at times this is a joyous pursuit. We should never stop evolving. We all have flaws and always will have flaws. We are human that way. The challenges of life do not stand still. They are relentless. They are both static and ever changing at the same time. Meaning there are recurring themes that challenge us in varied ways in varied combinations.

So there are times we must center ourselves. To draw our inner strength and who we are and who we can be inside. We decide in the self our goals and aspirations. But there is always a delay in the physical world of putting thought into exact action. As they say it starts with the first step. First comes the affirmation. Think of it as where you look is where you go. We form a mental image of the person we wish to be. Then we live that vision. Overtime we become that version of ourself. I have done this most of my life. I think many of us do this naturally without realizing it. That said I learned of this formally as part of a class way back in the 80s.

Our outer persona is meant to adapt to the direction that our inner self commands it. This is why I say to many men AND women, look inside yourself and do not allow the world to dictate who you are. Lose your fear. Allow your outer persona to adapt to who you really are ... inside. We have fewer limits than many perceive. And at the same time we are as insignificant as any grain of sand. We are unique as a snowflake yet we are made up of the same things that everyone else is. Indeed we ARE stardust. 

This comes right back intrinsically to our previous discussion over how much impact we have on our own lives. Those that are empowered with this knowledge would seem to have a huge advantage. I believe we all bring something to the table. Some folks seem to have a greater ability to adapt than others. 

Feed the positive aspects of yourself. Deprecate the bad. Choose from whatever pallete you wish whether you call it the Alpha / Beta pallet or the galactic buffet. Blend as appropriate. Only you can choose which is which. We do change and yet we stay the same because change is part of who we are. Call it growth.

So does light consist of waves or particles? Both or neither? What is real? The bird is in your hands.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> _Or "I was young and foolish and believed I knew what I was doing when I chose my wife, but now I see I ignored every red flag"._
> 
> :smthumbup: Who you choose is key.
> 
> ...


Here is a simple thought :

Change. It happens. It is what we do to adapt to it that matters.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I will disagree. Most of us don't come as a completely healthy package with no FOO issues. You can SAY you just want a person with integrity. But what if that person is conflict avoidant? What if he is manic depressive? What if he's a closet cross-dresser? Angry? Integrity and consciences are great, but if your or your spouses's FOO stuff overrides it, you still have a crappy relationship._

I do SAY it and require it, and FOO issues are no excuse for bad behavior. If FOO issues "override it" then there is no integrity- RUN! A main part of The FOUNDATION of a relationship is integrity and a good conscience, of course not everything in life is predictable or controllable, but at least you need to see those two things IMO.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_All great goals. But merely stating goals, with no plan on getting there, is not usually all that helpful._

Obviously. It was just a general statement.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> _Integrity.
> 
> It's been my long standing belief in my "short" 45 years on this Earth, that if you do not have integrity, then you have nothing. I certainly don't mean that as a slight Entropy, because your list is solid. I merely wanted to add my final word to that list.
> 
> ...


Nature throws a huge curve into things. Most people it seems do not realize it exists until it happens to them. They have a scotoma to it.

EAs exist in marriage that are thought to be solid. Particiapants may be those of great conscious and character. In fact it is a prerequisite to assume that your character will keep you safe to even be in an EA.

Affairs are addictions. I am not talking about some low life that that intends to go get some strange. I am talking about real people. 

So no it is not enough to just have these qualities. One must be dynamically engaged in their relationship. ALL marriages have challenges. Having great character is a wonderful thing and a great start. It is NOT enough. Because people with great character react to lifes circumstances. They fall out of love with their spouses. They rationalize their feelings for others. I am not saying they cheat. They may just get divorced. And what they were missing was knowledge and skills to be in a marriage.

A good marriage also has passion. It must have good boundaries to protect its integrity. Just like the individual and marriage has a persona to the outside world. It has a center where the couple should reside in a bond. Yes they have their own identify but part of their identity is that they are in this alliance. The couple should look out for each other becuase we ALL have scotomas to the dangers that will attack our marriages. Character is not enough. Trust is a by product in a marriage. Marriage is about Love and Respect. To just trust and rely on character is some combination of laziness, ambivalence and / or naive. 

I wonder what the phobia is to the Greek alphabet?

So in male terms a quality man strives to meet the needs of his high character wife. She deserves this. He must be all in. He must fuel the passion. He strives to be attractive to her. To be her lover. To be her best male friend. To be her husband and father of her children. He looks out for her. Has her back. So he must nurture the marriage. But he also must be a protector of the marriage. This is all reciprocal of course. She must do the same. I mean how often will a women say "Wow, he has great character. I want him so bad." Staying in a bad marriage because you have character is torturing the soul. Bets to have good character and a passionate marriage. 

“_*Even the finest sword plunged into salt water will eventually rust.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

*_So even one with the highest character who allows oneself to live a given lifestyle will ultimately be effected by that lifestyle.

So if you have a spouse that is out seeking the attentions of other men and you feel the need to trust them becuase you know they have high character, I say they are already breaking trust. They are already chipping away at their ability to make proper decisions.

The marriage failed. Oh my spouse had poor character. Indeed maybe they did, however life is seldom this black and white. Best to be engaged and accountable. I do beleive in making the best choice in a life partner as one can. But life is about change. We need to deal with it to survive.

There are times a man must invoke his manliness and play the appropriate required role to run off poachers or assert boundaries. he msut also be meeting his spouses needs. These are manly too.

Alpha / Beta is certainly better IMO to talking about dominance and submission. Yes it does get into gender roles. I do not think it is good to relate this to a man being more male and less feminine either. So Alpha / Beta is actually a less inflammatory convention I think. I gues we could just tell the guys to stop being such a chick about things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have increbile integrity and conscience. Yet I have let a PA husband run my life for 35 years out of the fear instilled in me as a child. It has TAKEN me 15 years and tons of therapy to get the strength to change things. Your answer is cookie cutter and will not solve everything.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

After reading everyone's posts I think I am pretty much even more so convinced now that we are who we are. When I analyze myself I see a workaholic that is addicted to acquiring more money and power. I have tried so hard to be more of family man and spend more time at home. It works temporarily but inevitably I revert back to chasing the next deal and putting family on the back burner. My wife doesn't complain and to be honest I think she prefers it because her father is very similar. Its all she knows. What am saying is when it comes to who we are as people I don't think we can do a true 180. I think we can really only modify ourselves temporarily. Always reverting back to our true selves. That's why I agree with the posters that say selecting the right spouse is the most important thing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I disagree, sorry. I think we DO what makes us happiest. Your success is what makes you happy. But I'll submit that's only because your wife has gone along with it. If she were to suddenly decide you're not paying enough attention, and start going dancing every night to FIND that attention, I'll wager your priorities would shift really quickly, and you'd find that earning more money is NOT what makes you happiest.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> I disagree, sorry. I think we DO what makes us happiest. Your success is what makes you happy. But I'll submit that's only because your wife has gone along with it. If she were to suddenly decide you're not paying enough attention, and start going dancing every night to FIND that attention,* I'll wager your priorities would shift really quickly, and you'd find that earning more money is NOT what makes you happiest.*


:iagree:

Like Entropy said above:

"...*Nature throws a huge curve into things. Most people it seems do not realize it exists until it happens to them. They have a scotoma to it*..."

Yep, they are " blindsided " because they are not discerning or flexible enough.
Whatever life throws at you, there is absolutely no excuse for not working to improve yourself constantly.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

turnera said:


> I disagree, sorry. I think we DO what makes us happiest. Your success is what makes you happy. But I'll submit that's only because your wife has gone along with it. If she were to suddenly decide you're not paying enough attention, and start going dancing every night to FIND that attention, I'll wager your priorities would shift really quickly, and you'd find that earning more money is NOT what makes you happiest.


No need to apologize for disagreeing with me. I started the thread because I am myself conflicted and really wanted to see what everyone else thought. 

I see where you are coming from in your post but the example was extreme. If she started going dancing every night I couldn't handle that. I would be too angry all of the time to be around her and we would probably end up getting divorced. I really don't like it when other men give her attention. I am a bit of a neanderthal when it comes to that. With that said if she talked to me about my workaholic tendencies or gave me the silent treatment because of it. I would try my best to change, and I think I could for a little while, but I have zero confidence that I could keep it up long term.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_It is NOT enough. Because people with great character react to lifes circumstances. They fall out of love with their spouses. They rationalize their feelings for others. I am not saying they cheat. They may just get divorced. And what they were missing was knowledge and skills to be in a marriage._

If you cheat, you lack integrity and have a flawed character. People who fall out of love and don't want to fix it or work on it, so get a divorce, wait until final, then date. That shows a BIT of integrity. You don't have the skills and knowledge to be in a marriage, don't marry. If you already are married and lack those skills, a person with integrity will make whatever effort to acquire them. I hate excuses. Let's not make excuses for people. There is NEVER a need to cheat, it can NEVER be justified, regardless of life's circumstances. Tempted? Nobody has a gun to your head, reject the temptation and do the right thing.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I have increbile integrity and conscience. Yet I have let a PA husband run my life for 35 years out of the fear instilled in me as a child. It has TAKEN me 15 years and tons of therapy to get the strength to change things. Your answer is cookie cutter and will not solve everything_

Good for you. I assume you haven't cheated on him. That's great. He did cheat , so obviously he has the problem not you. People with true integrity and a conscience won't cheat. You evidently weren't the one to damage your marriage by cheating, so like you said, you have integrity and a conscience.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> After reading everyone's posts I think I am pretty much even more so convinced now that we are who we are. When I analyze myself I see a workaholic that is addicted to acquiring more money and power. I have tried so hard to be more of family man and spend more time at home. It works temporarily but inevitably I revert back to chasing the next deal and putting family on the back burner. My wife doesn't complain and to be honest I think she prefers it because her father is very similar. Its all she knows. What am saying is when it comes to who we are as people I don't think we can do a true 180. I think we can really only modify ourselves temporarily. Always reverting back to our true selves. That's why I agree with the posters that say selecting the right spouse is the most important thing.


And I would argue that is you. I am also a workaholic. My wife would live with it. But I have made an honest attempt to reign that in and have been successful. Not perfect, but I have changed.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> SA, have you and your H ever gone to a sex therapist? They can help with this issue you're having.


We've :rofl: about that notion a few times...how ridiculous it would sound to walk into the office & state this is what I want & he can't seem to do it... would LOVE to see what "take home" exercises that might consist of. 

He told me one night He might need "hypnotized" ~ why I started that last thread. He does appear to have a blocked mentality here. 

Through many heart to hearts in the last 4 yrs ( this desire has calmed considerably in me by the way).....Temperament Testing...coming to learn our Libido styles.... trying to figure out what makes him tick (cause ironically aggressive women is what turns HIM ON)....I have probably 35+ sex books on my shelf/ am a Psyche nut...I think I understand the root of his problem... 

The mindset he has is this....he doesn't feel any amount of "selfishness" should be involved in SEX ...he feels that is WRONG....at least on his end- it wars against his view of LOVE, he can not separate sex & love ..(but then again, I am similar to this also).......

In his mind, it has to BE a mutual thing...he gets off more on Pleasing me than getting his own... If I ever rejected this man, he would recoil & probably never touch me again. 

He gets really angry to see a rape scene on TV, and I think I already explained how he feels about MEN who throw their Power around & treat women badly... He thinks they are the scum at the bottom of the barrel.. so to get him to be more ALPHA in an aggressive way towards me - is probably like trying to get him to lick up vomit... so this should explain a little of his disdain for so called "rape fantasies"... just that word - destroys it for him...I would have to use another word to even get him to entertain the idea. 

And no, he has never been sexually molested or anything like that.. He was bullied in early High school some though. 

Part of a post I did on this in my last thread >>



> *SimplyAmorous said:* He's said a # of times..."*I'm a Lover not a Fighter*"... "*I'm a Making Love man"* ....he is not at all selfish in SEX.... He is a through & through Pleaser, this is what gives him Pleasure....this appears to be a huge part of his psyche, which brings me to THIS....
> 
> How Useful is a little SELFISHNESS IN SEX?? We've had this discussion before ....I've told him I'd like to feel some "selfishness" from him....in one of my Sex books (written by a Sex Therapist) said this is one area we WANT some selfishness......feeling our partners selfishly want gratified -just as we do - this is at the heart of LUST/ eroticism - it fuels something in us... doesn't it ??
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> With that said if she talked to me about my workaholic tendencies or gave me the silent treatment because of it. I would try my best to change, and I think I could for a little while, but I have zero confidence that I could keep it up long term.


Again, that is BECAUSE all she did was talk or give silent treatment. So what? That's a drop in the bucket compared to the feel-good you get from your success. WHO CARES if she's unhappy when YOU are so happy? Of COURSE you won't keep it up long term - YOU HAVE NO CONSEQUENCES.

What if she just up and moved out, as so many women do after 10, 20, 30 years? THEN would her happiness matter more than your success?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

maincourse99 said:


> _I have increbile integrity and conscience. Yet I have let a PA husband run my life for 35 years out of the fear instilled in me as a child. It has TAKEN me 15 years and tons of therapy to get the strength to change things. Your answer is cookie cutter and will not solve everything_
> 
> Good for you. I assume you haven't cheated on him. That's great. He did cheat , so obviously he has the problem not you. People with true integrity and a conscience won't cheat. You evidently weren't the one to damage your marriage by cheating, so like you said, you have integrity and a conscience.


Huh? My husband never cheated. And he is the most honorable and conscientious man I've ever met. He gave up his allowance so his sister could have a nicer dress. He let his mom and siblings move in when he bought a house at 19. He gave up trips he'd won because he won so many and another salesman hadn't. He is always helping people improve their business, at no benefit to him. But his FOO DYSFUNCTION has kept us from having a happy marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We've :rofl: about that notion a few times...how ridiculous it would sound to walk into the office & state this is what I want & he can't seem to do it... would LOVE to see what "take home" exercises that might consist of.


SA, that is EXACTLY what these specialists deal with. It wouldn't be ridiculous to _them_ at all. They see it day in and day out. And they know how to fix it.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

Alpha vs beta is total bs.

Simply because being either-or makes you an unhealthy person.

What I see here is a pissing contest over semantics tbh. 

Does any one think being a doormat is good? That simply represents too much emphasis on beta and burying the alpha.

Does anyone think riding roughshod is good. That is simply the opposite.

Caring is a beta trait. That's good. Too much of it and you have a caretaker. That is bad. 

Confidence is an alpha trait and is good. Too much of it and you have arrogance and that is bad.

I feel sorry for anyone that is too alpha and equally for anyone that is too beta. As some have said its balance.

We seem to advocate manning the F up on TAM to men a lot simply as a lot of us sorry souls that wash up here need that very advice. Our "self" becomes subjugated in the us and we lose ourselves. Doesn't mean its the woman's fault. A phrase I have grown to love since finding TAM is that people treat you the way you train them to.

Codependancy is the perfect example of too much beta. A man with insufficient alpha traits for whatever reason is unable to maintain his boundaries and gets run over. Meanwhile the man with too much alpha is probably off with a nice codependent of their own to run over.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Alpha / Beta is certainly better IMO to talking about dominance and submission. Yes it does get into gender roles. I do not think it is good to relate this to a man being more male and less feminine either. So Alpha / Beta is actually a less inflammatory convention I think. I gues we could just tell the guys to stop being such a chick about things.


Ugh. What a sorry ending to such a beautiful post. Yes, i would have to agree that alpha/beta is less inflammatory than the wretched alternatives you've given here, but I think we can do better still.

It is often assumed that the men who are coming here are too beta, and need to alpha themselves up. But look at all the self-professed alphas here that are still complaining about their sexless marriages and inability to capture their wives' interest. 

Don't get me wrong, I've seen posts where men have reported their happiness and success with their efforts to alpha up. But there are many where these efforts don't seem to make an iota of difference. How can that be? Either the diagnosis or the treatment must be wrong.

As the treatment (stay fit, eat well, look after your needs, and be all that you can be) is pretty much always good advice for both men and women, I submit that it may just be the diagnosis that is off.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Yet I have let a PA husband run my life for 35 years _

Sorry. Can I ask then what a "PA husband" means? I thought "physical affair". Whouda thunk it wasn't that? Stupid me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> SA, that is EXACTLY what these specialists deal with. It wouldn't be ridiculous to _them_ at all. They see it day in and day out. And they know how to fix it.


Well to be honest, I feel like that special time where this REALLY would have meant the world to me has passed me by... in this way, it's a little ... but the urge to GO NOW over it...it's just not enough of an issue to pursue... 

I've pretty much made peace with it... so long as he *desires *me - I'm happy .... Take this away...it could have destructed our marriage...though this was never an issue (except in my mind at one point)... 

If I trudge all this up again, it only makes him feel like I don't accept him for who he is - some things are not worth the hurt. Anyway, we agreed on the







.... I just need to get to it. 

If I have made him sound like a Lousy Lover...well.... that would be a horrible shame, cause if that were true...I wouldn't BE "Simply Amorous" who is always talking about







cause I enjoy it so darn much!  What he brings is at the roots of this passion in me....despite this little contention I mention from time to time.

Excuse the high-jack... and thanks Turnera !


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Don't get me wrong, I've seen posts where men have reported their happiness and success with their efforts to alpha up. But there are many where these efforts don't seem to make an iota of difference. How can that be? Either the diagnosis or the treatment must be wrong.

As the treatment (stay fit, eat well, look after your needs, and be all that you can be) is pretty much always good advice for both men and women, I submit that it may just be the diagnosis that is off_

Good points. Humans are very complicated. One poster said we're all "in our own universes", who knows what's going on in the mind of a WS? I don't think many of them even know themselves.

As you say above, all we can do is our best and control our own behavior. There is no cookie-cutter remedy, because we can't diagnose.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

turnera said:


> Huh? My husband never cheated. And he is the most honorable and conscientious man I've ever met. He gave up his allowance so his sister could have a nicer dress. He let his mom and siblings move in when he bought a house at 19. He gave up trips he'd won because he won so many and another salesman hadn't. He is always helping people improve their business, at no benefit to him. But his FOO DYSFUNCTION has kept us from having a happy marriage.


Sounds like you have a very GIVING Husband that goes out of his way for others....very big ... 

*I missed what FOO stands for?? *I would agree any psychological dysfunction (??) could reac havoc on a marriage, and the happiness of a partner... .this too, is learning to "accept" people for where THEY ARE...

If none of us did this... none of us could remain married. 

Learning...even struggling to find the "beauty among the ashes" is a worthwhile pursuit... If one finds it is not "enough"... I wouldn't blame anyone for divorcing though ... but that is just ME.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

maincourse99 said:


> _Yet I have let a PA husband run my life for 35 years _
> 
> Sorry. Can I ask then what a "PA husband" means? I thought "physical affair". Whouda thunk it wasn't that? Stupid me.


Sorry, passive aggressive.

And FOO is family of origin. Like if your mom kept threatening to leave you at the police station if you didn't behave, you'd have an inordinate fear of being abandoned and grow up to be a person who never upsets ANYONE. That's your FOO affecting the person you turn out to be.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> After reading everyone's posts I think I am pretty much even more so convinced now that we are who we are. When I analyze myself I see a workaholic that is addicted to acquiring more money and power. I have tried so hard to be more of family man and spend more time at home. It works temporarily but inevitably I revert back to chasing the next deal and putting family on the back burner. My wife doesn't complain and to be honest I think she prefers it because her father is very similar. Its all she knows. What am saying is when it comes to who we are as people I don't think we can do a true 180. I think we can really only modify ourselves temporarily. Always reverting back to our true selves. That's why I agree with the posters that say selecting the right spouse is the most important thing.


I have been a workaholic for much of my life. 

In recent years I have for the sake of my marriage changed much of my behavior.

Do not confuse habits /addictions with who you are. As I point out one can change habits by making positive affirmations. 

You may be passionate abou your work. That is fine. But you do not have to be a slave to this.

You may be OCD like me. 

These things are addctions. Just like affairs.

Saying you can only change your behaviors temporarily is being defeatest. And LOL, maybe that is who your are. I hope not. 

No change requires effort. It is much is easier in life to say, I can't do that.

I guess "I can do that" is who I am. But I got the can do attitude when I was in an F-14 squadron.

But hey. It is about the choices we make. Indeed choosing a good spouse is key. I have a character flaw in that I tend to look as various factors and not just one thing. I try to make a series of choices that could work in my favor. 

But back to the thread. Making a good choice of a partner while key is NOT the end. It is the beginning. It matters what we do with our partner. The goal is NOT to just avoid PIV sex. To have someone who will not betray us. That is a given. We want to meet this wonderful persons needs. Be actively engaged as the husband. Trust me having a wife passionatley involved in the marriage is infinitley sweeter than one who is there out of obligation alone.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> _It is NOT enough. Because people with great character react to lifes circumstances. They fall out of love with their spouses. They rationalize their feelings for others. I am not saying they cheat. They may just get divorced. And what they were missing was knowledge and skills to be in a marriage._
> 
> If you cheat, you lack integrity and have a flawed character. People who fall out of love and don't want to fix it or work on it, so get a divorce, wait until final, then date. That shows a BIT of integrity. You don't have the skills and knowledge to be in a marriage, don't marry. If you already are married and lack those skills, a person with integrity will make whatever effort to acquire them. I hate excuses. Let's not make excuses for people. There is NEVER a need to cheat, it can NEVER be justified, regardless of life's circumstances. Tempted? Nobody has a gun to your head, reject the temptation and do the right thing.


I agree. But the focus of my point is that the marriage fails even with no cheating.

The measuerent of a marriage is not that there is no overt cheating. A marriahe on life support without cheating is no marriage at all. 

I am talking about raising the bar. 

I think it comes down to motivation. We can develop skills. But many folks will not put in the effort.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I agree. But the focus of my point is that the marriage fails even with no cheating.

The measuerent of a marriage is not that there is no overt cheating. A marriahe on life support without cheating is no marriage at all. 

I am talking about raising the bar. 

I think it comes down to motivation. We can develop skills. But many folks will not put in the effort_

I'm with you on this. What's needed is two people who are motivated to stay together, and often it's only one, which doesn't work. 

There are legitimate reasons to end a marriage, for instance, abuse (physical & emotional), willful nonsupport, and of course adultery.

But like you say, many won't put in the effort, and leave for "greener pastures" that usually are not any better than where they were. Many times they end up far worse off.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Ugh. What a sorry ending to such a beautiful post. Yes, i would have to agree that alpha/beta is less inflammatory than the wretched alternatives you've given here, but I think we can do better still.
> 
> It is often assumed that the men who are coming here are too beta, and need to alpha themselves up. But look at all the self-professed alphas here that are still complaining about their sexless marriages and inability to capture their wives' interest.
> 
> ...


Not at all. I was providing closure and context to this thread. I was bringing this full circle.

Name some guys who claim to be Alphas on this site?

What Alphas would be posting on a marriage site?

I have had to deal in life with Alphas. On two occasions with a .357 magnum in their face. They thought it was ok to beat and abuse women. Complete losers. But they also fit the mold of charming looking men. 

In my realm in my profession I am an AMOG. But I am also a leader. Good leaders have to have a blend of traits. 

Extreme Alphas spend time behind bars.

All I can tell you is good for you. This works for many. Again this advice is typically for men. Sometimes the guys who get this advice need to up their T-levels I agree. I am sure much of this can be applied to women but that is not my intent for using Alpha / Beta. I use it in reguards to men.

I do not assume when a guys posts here he is too Beta. It becomes very evident from their posts that they are beat down. This is not a slam on TAM ... but I have never seen so many guys ... so Beta ... anywhere at one time. I suggest that many who do post as such are having us on or are merely posting their fetish stories. I wonder if there is not a link here from bang my wife dot com. So many of these stories just go down the hotwife story line. I fear way too many are real though.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> _I agree. But the focus of my point is that the marriage fails even with no cheating.
> 
> The measuerent of a marriage is not that there is no overt cheating. A marriahe on life support without cheating is no marriage at all.
> 
> ...


Right. I found my marriage had fallen into a bad rut where my wife and I were focused on our careers. This was not making me happy. So I began to seek ways of changing this. I did it in the geek way that I am. Research. 

I reached a point where I sat my wife down and told her we needed to head in a better direction. She was afraid I would start on this path and then fall back into shutting down and giving focus elsewhere. I assured her I would not do that and I was going to make changes. Note that I was telling her what I was going to do. I was not controlling her. But indeed she has followed my lead.

I did NOT only focus on being more Alpha. I strive to up the positive aspects in a blend. But I did try some things considered more Alpha. They have worked very well. But I did not kill the Beta. if anything I have raised that too.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Not at all. I was providing closure and context to this thread. I was bringing this full circle.
> 
> Name some guys who claim to be Alphas on this site?
> 
> ...


Have you ever thought that getting into one of these situations in the first place would beat someone down?

It's not like we signed up to be in these positions.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> *Have you ever thought that getting into one of these situations in the first place would beat someone down?*
> 
> It's not like we signed up to be in these positions.


I thought that is what I have been saying all along.

That just to say these guys are the way they are is a wrong way to look at it. But yes you are right to emphasize this part. This is about helping some folks who have been beaten down and are overwhelmed. I am not religious per se but I do like the "but for the grace of God there go I" view. Becuase it is very true in that fortune can deal us a bad hand. Most often some just trusted their heart with someone else and they crushed it. Not the guys fault at all. I can only assume I would be totally devastated by most of these situations. If you are all in, you take a risk.

That at their center they are men. That the help we give them is to reach their center and to help them rediscover who they really are. That these circusmtances have indeed beat them down.

Combine this with other social conditioning and agendas designed to throttle a strong male.

This is what I am saying. That the guys who come here deserve support. That the extreme situations are not likely the result of who these men are at their center.

Notice that there are some different reason for why this Alpha / Beta topic comes up at all. Sexless marriages, infidleity, boundaries and ideally just taking a good marriage to the next level. The last category is my personal focus. But I would say few marriages have adapted their boundaries well enough to keep pace with technology and the changes that have occured over the past so many years. You can only adapt so fast. Helping men get back their self respect is a noble and honorable endeavor to say the least. Helping is Beta. This is a good thing. Guys do not always have resources for such help. But they can get it here.

---------

I also believe that those 12 men who died in West Texas had great honor. Now you do not have to die to have great honor but they had to have plenty of Beta and Alpha to do what they did. Most of them were volunteers. How very responsible and Beta. But also Alpha to attack that blaze. To save others lives. Quality men with great courage. Whe I talk about a blend of traits these type of men are in my mind.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Have you ever thought that getting into one of these situations in the first place would beat someone down?
> 
> It's not like we signed up to be in these positions.


Daddy Shanks,

Have you ever used that product in your avatar?
It's called Alpha Male done by a company called Biotest.
Its a really good Testosterone booster.
Really potent stuff.

Your'e pumping iron?


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Daddy Shanks,
> 
> Have you ever used that product in your avatar?
> It's called Alpha Male done by a company called Biotest.
> ...


Yes.

I've used Alpha Male a couple of years ago. It was ok. 

I just had to use the avatar because of all the Alpha talk we have around here.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Yes.
> 
> I've used Alpha Male a couple of years ago. It was ok.
> 
> I just had to use the avatar because of all the Alpha talk we have around here.


Well, if you have used it, that means that you are a regular on
T- NATION,
And if you are a regular on t-nation,then your'e a serious lifter.

Yes?

Reason I'm asking is that its always nice to meet another serious lifter..:smthumbup:


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## Adex (Aug 1, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I stumbled on to this board a few months ago because I was looking for a way to help a friend who was going through a divorce. He literally gave his wife and family all of himself, and she woke up one day and told him she wasn't attracted to him anymore and that was it.
> 
> After looking at all of the discussion on being Alpha and not being a "nice" guy, I immediately thought that this description sounded like my friend in his relationship. I told him to look into some of the resources on this site so that he could "man up". Well....it hasn't really worked out so good. I now realize that he is who he is. He can't just make himself more Alpha, it almost seems like he is focusing on it too much now instead of just being himself. I almost feel sorry for the next women he dates because she will probably end up paying for the first wife's mistake.
> 
> ...


Many relationship problems can be solved if the man acted more alpha. It also helps if the woman is more beta. It could work the opposite way where the woman is alpha and the man is beta. Either way, one always has more power in the relationship and this is to this person's advantage.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Adex said:


> Many relationship problems can be solved if the man acted more alpha. It also helps if the woman is more beta. *It could work the opposite way where the woman is alpha and the man is beta. Either way, one always has more power in the relationship and this is to this person's advantage*.


 this coming from ADEX.. I am so impressed. So long as the wife RESPECTS her tipped Beta husband, this can work...plus she's still attracted to him physically...

I'm not above my husband even if my ROAR is a little louder at times ...we always Brainstorm together...


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## Adex (Aug 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> this coming from ADEX.. I am so impressed. So long as the wife RESPECTS her tipped Beta husband, this can work...plus she's still attracted to him physically...
> 
> I'm not above my husband even if my ROAR is a little louder at times ...we always Brainstorm together...


To clarify, I think it's best when the man is alpha and the woman is beta. It's the ideal situation for a man. However, if a man is married to a dominant woman and he's more beta and he gives the power to the woman, it could work out. I just don't think it's the best situation for the man. I've said that before.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

The man would have to be truly beta though. Not an insult but that would have to be who he was happy being.

Second half of myarriage I allowed my beta traits to run amok and we became aplha wife, beta husband.

I'm not naturally overtly beta though. My conditioning made me go against my nature, to save a situation that really needed me to actually be me, and only became so bad because by rolling over and not fighting the right fights, I became weak and unattractive in appearance, if not at my core. All while resenting my loss of power even though I gave it away rather than it being taken. Resentment is a marriage killer and a key marker of out of balance beta traits I think.

If I found TAM 4 yrs ago I might not be heading for D. I am that man that loses balance and needed to be told, quite bluntly at times to man the F up and stop being a doormat.

Sometimes the alpha trait message needs to be spelled out SLOWLY and with no sugar coating for it to sink in. Simple fact of dealing with most men. We don't take subtle hints on board too well imo. Maybe it is the delivery rather than the message that makes some see it negatively. For me the delivery was needed to get the message through in the first place though.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

K.C. said:


> The man would have to be truly beta though. Not an insult but that would have to be who he was happy being.


 I know YOU don't mean this in a bad way K.C.... but yeah....It always seems to come off as insult to me when people talk about Betas here......It's always 2nd best...such men are feminized by other men, even women....that is all I seem to see on here....and if you are a natural...what the hell is wrong with [email protected]#$%^ 

My husband is A NATURAL....that is who he is ....I don't feel he is any less of a MAN....He has enough ALPHA to keep me entertained. He has more honorable traits than any man I have ever met in my lifetime.....this is not a small thing...and just for the record, I can be pretty judgemental on people for their character flaws, many things I'd never put up with.... guess that's the ALPHA in me... 

We talked about this last night..and many times over since I found this forum , realized he was tipped Beta ...& see the term beat to hell & back...He is HAPPY the way he is... Now if he married another who ended up abusing the situation ... I won't deny ....he wouldn't be happy..in fact miserable would best describe that... and hopefully he'd have enough balls to loose the bi*ch...being so naturally GIVING , and unselfish... if he had kids, he'd likely hang on... I don't know.... If he was my friend, I'd sure he after him to "MAN the F UP". 

I also feel those who take advantage of other people, I look just as poorly on them...in fact more so, than the person with the honorable Beta traits.... but that's just MY way of looking at LIFE...I have a thing for the Underdog....and I try to be very *self aware* in my dealings with others......

I will look at MY OWN Behavior before I go blaming my husband for something...when he was doing RIGHT by me. I may mess up at times, but I always come back and make it GOOD.... make it up to him. That's why He can be a "Happy Beta" I suppose. 

I really need to stay off these threads! 




> Second half of my marriage I allowed my beta traits to run amok and we became aplha wife, beta husband.
> 
> I'm not naturally overtly beta though. My conditioning made me go against my nature to save a situation that really needed me to actually be me and only became so bad because by rolling over and not fighting the right fights, I became weak and unattractive in appearence if not at my core while resenting my loss of power even though I have it away rather than it being taken. Resentment is a marriage killer and a key marker of out of balance beta traits I think.
> 
> ...


It's good you got the message for your future.. we all NEED to be who we are - (meaning striving to be the Best version of our true selves)....be comfortable in our own shoes...and stand tall....even Beta men... just make sure you find a compatible match who compliments your personality.....I guess you need a tipped Beta female... As Adex says...this will give you a smoother ride.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

SA he is who he is and you are who you are. It works so screw the labels. I'm a little jealous though. 

Your right I didn't mean it negatively. Nothing wrong with beta traits, without them you have an a44hole. Nothing wrong with being more beta than alpha if we stick with these labels.

The thing is a lot of us here aren't lucky enough to be married to a SA of our own, our beta tendencies get ran over by a SO that takes advantage or we simply do it for them out of fear. Some of us find we need to man the F up, not because beta is bad but simply as we have swung too far in that direction and lost any sense of ourselves as men.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

K.C. said:


> Some of us find we need to man the F up, not because beta is bad but simply as we have swung too far in that direction and lost any sense of ourselves as men.


My point^^^exactly, in this entire discussion.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> My point^^^exactly, in this entire discussion.


I guess In simple terms, if Beta is ALL you are doing, you need to up the Alpha balance.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> I guess In simple terms, if Beta is ALL you are doing, you need to up the Alpha balance.


:iagree:

If a man finds himself in a position where he can't say no , or stop, or he cares about other people to the point where they take advantage of him, then he needs to adjust his behaviour to achieve a better more functional balance in life / relationships.

There is no " one size fits all" prescription to this.
It's relative to the dynamics of the relationship.

I even believe that if a man is in a relationship where his wife is the dominant one , sometimes she may need to curb some of her dominant traits in order to bring the desired balance in the relationship.
Like I said, I think its relative and can work both ways.

I also believe its something both parties can work on together , as part of their self awareness and creating a stronger bond.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> If a man finds himself in a position where he can't say no , or stop, or he cares about other people to the point where they take advantage of him, then he needs to adjust his behaviour to achieve a better more functional balance in life / relationships.
> 
> ...


Who "gets" to be the dominant one?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

DaddyLongShanks said:


> Who "gets" to be the dominant one?


Relationships are more complex than that , sir.


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## DaddyLongShanks (Nov 6, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Relationships are more complex than that , sir.


Agree


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