# Old but telling article about men doing housework (UK)



## BigBadWolf

The men transforming into female hybrids (and dab hands at dusting) | Mail Online


From the article:



> She added: 'It's not entirely our fault, because the demands of the workplace have changed us, and brought out our more masculine side.
> 'But unfortunately we're taking that home with us every evening into the domestic sphere, and often bullying our men into submission.
> 'Many of us are so focused, decisive and assertive, that the only role left for our husbands is one where they comply and let us take charge - traditionally feminine traits.
> 'But the irony is, we don't actually want men like that, and we end up eventually resenting them for not being more dominant and fearless.'
> 
> 
> Read more: The men transforming into female hybrids (and dab hands at dusting) | Mail Online


'But the irony is, we don't actually want men like that, and we end up eventually resenting them for not being more dominant and fearless.' 

Good men, read this last part as many times as it takes to sink in!


----------



## greenpearl

If a woman works, it is sweet that her husband helps her out with house chores. But she shouldn't force him to do it. He should understand that his wife also helps paying the bills, it is just fair for him to share house chores. She shouldn't force him or order him, he is her husband, he should still be the head, if she thinks that she has to order him to do things, then it is sad. A woman should be sweet to her husband, her husband should be sweet to her. 

It is not fair that she has to work, pay the bills, and do all the house chores. 

BBW, please don't tell me that you agree that a man shouldn't do anything at home. I'll lose respect for you if you think like this. I support the idea of men need to grow balls, but they also need to be loving and considerate. 

If a woman is a stay at home mom, he still should spend time with their kids. I think the woman should make sure the house and kids are well looked after. 

How can people find balance? 

Balance is what men and women need!!!!!


----------



## greenpearl

I teach 22 hours a week, my husband teaches 20 hours a week. His salary is higher than me. 

We share house chores. I never need to force my husband to do house chores, he just feels it is important for him to help me. I would still do everything since I am traditional. But his help makes me really appreciative of him. I don't think it is fair for me to work and do everything at home, I wouldn't be happy. A man can have balls and not let his woman step on him, but he shouldn't be an axxhxxe, take his wife for granted. 

How come I am so bothered after reading that article. 

I think men and women should really have a big conference meeting and discuss the details. 

Women, don't crush your men's balls, you are a boss at a company. You are still a woman in front of your man. He is your head. No matter how powerful you are in front of other men or women, at home, he is your MAN.

Men, be loving and considerate of your wives, women are the weaker vessels, it is your responsibility to care for them and protect them. 

Why is this world so complicated? In history, women were bullied, now, women start to bully men. Why can't there be something in between???????


----------



## AFEH

I remember my dad talking about the “old days” when things were much better. As I grew older I started doing the same thing. Recalling times like when young women used to hitch hike to get to where they want to go with no fear associated with the activity. The times when if a little girl was lost and crying any man would walk up to her, pick her up and comfort her and then look to find her parents. None of those types of things happen these days. The world has indeed changed and not necessarily for the better.

I was a child of the 50s and 60s. Born into an extended family whose husbands had recently returned changed men from WW2. The wives of those men are legend. The man they married was not the man that came back from the war. Almost without exception those wives stayed with their husbands until either one of them passed away in old age. In my extended family 100% of the couples stayed together.

But to romanticise those times is in my mind very wrong. Sure there was “strong division of labour” in the marriage and the man thought he was the boss. How many men are mistaken in that thought I wonder. But each and every one of the marriages had their problems. Big problems. Perhaps the problems then were different than the problems there are today, but nonetheless there were still big problems.

In all the marriages the wives out lived the husbands. I was really surprised to learn from my mother and a few of my aunts that they didn’t really appreciate their husbands until a few years after they’d passed away and one of their biggest regrets is that they can never tell them. Funny old life sometimes.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Greenpearl, there are about 16,000 people who’ve joined up to this forum. Let’s say 90% of those joined up when their marriage was in trouble, let’s say 14,000 people. Now that’s hardly representative of the world’s population of marriages. It’s hardly “happy times” when our marriage is in trouble is it? Wouldn’t we look a little crazy if we were running around with a smile on our face when our marriage is crumbling?

So if you are looking for “happy people” then you are looking in the wrong place. Famous olde English saying lol.

Out of those 14,000 a huge percentage of them will have experienced joyful and happy times in their marriages. I most certainly did and I feel forever blessed for that. People who have joyful and happy marriages, in general, don’t join forums like these and make posts. In a little way this place is a little like an intensive care unit in a hospital. The patients in trouble, no place to laugh and joke, it’s time to get serious and down to business … about life.

I’m sorry Greenpearl I don’t want to join you in a debate about the direction the world is taking. If I wanted to do that I’d have joined a philosophical type of forum.

You do bring a “lightness” to the forum but on the other hand you’re running around saying just how perfect your marriage is. It doesn’t bother me I find it a bit amusing. Carry on being with the children, there’s a lot of joy and happiness there.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH

I am sorry if I have made you upset. I didn't mean to. 

I just wanted to tell you what was on my mind. 

I know TAM is a forum for people who have problems, and I really respect Chris for what he did and is doing. And I feel bad I am not a doctor. I wish I could help people, but I know I myself need help too. 

I didn't mean to hurt anybody, especially not you. Not only on TAM, all the other forums I went were the same. I only see problems, which makes me confused. Are people on this world really this bothered by their life. And we discussed this, we agreed that a lot of people don't go on forums, and we agreed that people who are happy don't need to come to forums to talk about their problems, so I am one of the discontented one, because I need to go on forums. 

Again, I didn't want to debate, I never like to debate. Especially we are taught to be respectful to our elders(please don't be upset with me again). I wasn't trying to debate, I just told you what was in my mind. 

Sorry if I have offended you.


----------



## AFEH

Greenpearl, maybe it would help you to think of the forum as a transition place. Maybe like waiting in an airport lounge for a connecting flight. For example I came here looking for some answers and help and I got them. And I’m grateful for that. I’ve stayed a while to help others out if I can.

But the forum is just that, somewhere to transition from one place to the next. It’s a bit of a sad airport lounge because that’s the nature of it. Out of the 16,000 members something like 2,000 are active. What happened to the other 14,000? They came, maybe stayed a while, got their answers and then went on their way.

I didn’t take any offence at what you said or what you’ve posted elsewhere, if I came across that way I’m sorry. I was actually concerned that I may have upset you.

Take me. I’m grieving the loss of my wife. I can’t believe that I can be walking a long and tears just come in my eyes. But I’m doing my best. I’m out and about with friends, walking and sports and suchlike and I can be happy in their company and I can be happy by myself. So this forum doesn’t fully represent either the happiness or sadness in my life.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> Greenpearl, maybe it would help you to think of the forum as a transition place. Maybe like waiting in an airport lounge for a connecting flight. For example I came here looking for some answers and help and I got them. And I’m grateful for that. I’ve stayed a while to help others out if I can.
> 
> But the forum is just that, somewhere to transition from one place to the next. It’s a bit of a sad airport lounge because that’s the nature of it. Out of the 16,000 members something like 2,000 are active. What happened to the other 14,000? They came, maybe stayed a while, got their answers and then went on their way.
> 
> I didn’t take any offence at what you said or what you’ve posted elsewhere, if I came across that way I’m sorry. I was actually concerned that I may have upset you.
> 
> Take me. I’m grieving the loss of my wife. I can’t believe that I can be walking a long and tears just come in my eyes. But I’m doing my best. I’m out and about with friends, walking and sports and suchlike and I can be happy in their company and I can be happy by myself. So this forum doesn’t fully represent either the happiness or sadness in my life.
> 
> Bob


I won't think too much about what had happened. As long as you are not upset with me, I am glad.

What you said is very true, this forum doesn't fully represent either the happiness or sadness in your life. I have to remember that. I have to remember that people in real life are different. 

What you see on the forum is not 100% of me either. Outside I am happy happy happy, but deep down in my heart I know I have a lot of tears, I got them in the past, but it is still there. I can't read sad stuff, I don't like to talk about sad stuff, because they bother me. I want to stay happy, so I avoid talking about sad stuff. There is only one person I share my sadness with, that's my husband. I have tears, a lot of tears, I cry easily, my first 30 years was very rough. The reason I studied life so hard because I needed help. 

Still, I have a strong personality, I don't let life beat me, I beat life.


----------



## BigBadWolf

greenpearl said:


> BBW, please don't tell me that you agree that a man shouldn't do anything at home. I'll lose respect for you if you think like this. I support the idea of men need to grow balls, but they also need to be loving and considerate.
> 
> If a woman is a stay at home mom, he still should spend time with their kids. I think the woman should make sure the house and kids are well looked after.




Early in our marriage a few times my wife pursued work outside the home, and those times absolutely did I step up to either do things around the house and make sure the children were assisting as well.

She appreciated it, but she admitted eventually she really did not like the idea of others doing what she viewed as her realm.

It was decided, yes, that her preference was to take care of the traditional areas, for the rest of us to help or be responsible as needed or requested.

And yes absolutely I get my hands dirty around the house.

For instance, for routine cleaning duties I am responsible for the master bathroom, and my younger son has the hallway bathroom. 

We are often in fierce competition to have the more spotless area, and we will verbally challenge and mock the other for any deficiencies.  

So in this way, certainly any man can help with the housework, but the point of all this, to not forget himself in doing so.



> How can people find balance?
> 
> Balance is what men and women need!!!!!


As long as good men learn, know, and remember what women find attractive in them, that is the mere point of this article.

The good man needs a lot less "yes dear" in his contributions, and to never hold back to have as much ownership, competition, and humor in whatever he chooses to do, even in housework, but to NEVER stop being who he is, to be a good man in everythign he puts his hand to as a man. 

When a good man remembers to always be who he is, then between him and his woman they will find the balance together.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> Early in our marriage a few times my wife pursued work outside the home, and those times absolutely did I step up to either do things around the house and make sure the children were assisting as well.
> 
> She appreciated it, but she admitted eventually she really did not like the idea of others doing what she viewed as her realm.
> 
> 
> My husband does a very good job washing the dishes and doing the laundry, so I am very happy he takes that part. I cook and clean up the apartment, so our house chores are about to be par. Hey, he spends more money, too. He feels bad that I don't buy anything, and he has bought quite a few expensive gadgets this year. I just don't know what I want. Like I said, my wonderful husband is the most thing I want, for other material stuff, I am just not interested. Feel good to make him feel guilty.
> 
> It was decided, yes, that her preference was to take care of the traditional areas, for the rest of us to help or be responsible as needed or requested.
> 
> And yes absolutely I get my hands dirty around the house.
> 
> Good boy!
> 
> For instance, for routine cleaning duties I am responsible for the master bathroom, and my younger son has the hallway bathroom.
> 
> We are often in fierce competition to have the more spotless area, and we will verbally challenge and mock the other for any deficiencies.
> 
> 
> Do you always win??? Or you let him win on purpose???
> 
> 
> So in this way, certainly any man can help with the housework, but the point of all this, to not forget himself in doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as good men learn, know, and remember what women find attractive in them, that is the mere point of this article.
> 
> The good man needs a lot less "yes dear" in his contributions, and to never hold back to have as much ownership, competition, and humor in whatever he chooses to do, even in housework, but to NEVER stop being who he is, to be a good man in everythign he puts his hand to as a man.
> 
> When a good man remembers to always be who he is, then between him and his woman they will find the balance together.


My opinion, it is important to MAN UP right at the beginning of the marriage, not after many years of being "yes dear", when a person is very sick, it is difficult to cure. When a woman is used to a "yes man", suddenly you want to MAN UP, I don't know what kind of result it is. I think they just resent you more. 

MAN UP right at the beginning, don't let your woman step on your head. But always remember that being faithful and loving is important to win a woman's heart.


----------



## MEM2020

And in this way your son learns that a ferocious focus on quality is critical no matter what the job itself is. And that in the company of honest, strong willed people with high standards you should expect to be mocked for anything less than excellence. And THOSE lessons will serve anyone well but especially a man. 

When I graduated college and started working I always tried to identify the people at work who produced excellent products. Whether those were technical reports, sales presentations or software itself. And I worked hard to be useful to those people so they would teach me. And I would always ask the same question when something was complete: "How could this be done better next time?" And they would tell me. And one day many years later I was at work and I realized that "I" was the guy the college grads were coming to and asking "can you teach me how to do xyz?" And BBW - I liked your answer about competing with other men. For a woman I would compete directly with a man. But other than that, I compete only with myself. 





>>>>>
We are often in fierce competition to have the more spotless area, and we will verbally challenge and mock the other for any deficiencies.  





BigBadWolf said:


> Early in our marriage a few times my wife pursued work outside the home, and those times absolutely did I step up to either do things around the house and make sure the children were assisting as well.
> 
> She appreciated it, but she admitted eventually she really did not like the idea of others doing what she viewed as her realm.
> 
> It was decided, yes, that her preference was to take care of the traditional areas, for the rest of us to help or be responsible as needed or requested.
> 
> And yes absolutely I get my hands dirty around the house.
> 
> For instance, for routine cleaning duties I am responsible for the master bathroom, and my younger son has the hallway bathroom.
> 
> We are often in fierce competition to have the more spotless area, and we will verbally challenge and mock the other for any deficiencies.
> 
> So in this way, certainly any man can help with the housework, but the point of all this, to not forget himself in doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as good men learn, know, and remember what women find attractive in them, that is the mere point of this article.
> 
> The good man needs a lot less "yes dear" in his contributions, and to never hold back to have as much ownership, competition, and humor in whatever he chooses to do, even in housework, but to NEVER stop being who he is, to be a good man in everythign he puts his hand to as a man.
> 
> When a good man remembers to always be who he is, then between him and his woman they will find the balance together.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363;193402 said:


> And in this way your son learns that a ferocious focus on quality is critical no matter what the job itself is. And that in the company of honest, strong willed people with high standards you should expect to be mocked for anything less than excellence. And THOSE lessons will serve anyone well but especially a man.
> 
> 
> It is OK to laugh at ourselves, if we take ourselves too seriously, it is tiring for others and us. IMO
> 
> When I graduated college and started working I always tried to identify the people at work who produced excellent products. Whether those were technical reports, sales presentations or software itself. And I worked hard to be useful to those people so they would teach me. And I would always ask the same question when something was complete: "How could this be done better next time?" And they would tell me. And one day many years later I was at work and I realized that "I" was the guy the college grads were coming to and asking "can you teach me how to do xyz?"
> 
> You learn only by being curious and asking questions.
> Students who pay attention in class learn the best. Please don't ask questions I just explained. I get annoyed by students who don't pay attention in class and then ask this and that, I ask them to ask other smart students.
> 
> 
> And BBW - I liked your answer about competing with other men. For a woman I would compete directly with a man. But other than that, I compete only with myself.
> 
> Live our own life, do our best, always view others superior and be respectful and friendly towards them. It is very easy to respect people who are knowledgeable and humble. I learned my hard lesson. I used to be very haughty!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>>
> We are often in fierce competition to have the more spotless area, and we will verbally challenge and mock the other for any deficiencies.


----------



## Conrad

greenpearl said:


> My opinion, it is important to MAN UP right at the beginning of the marriage, not after many years of being "yes dear", when a person is very sick, it is difficult to cure. When a woman is used to a "yes man", suddenly you want to MAN UP, I don't know what kind of result it is. I think they just resent you more.
> 
> MAN UP right at the beginning, don't let your woman step on your head. But always remember that being faithful and loving is important to win a woman's heart.


Greenpearl,

While that may be ideal, it's never too late.

Wolf's testimony indicates he was a "nice guy" at one point too.

My experience indicates that's the road to hell.


----------



## greenpearl

Conrad said:


> Greenpearl,
> 
> While that may be ideal, it's never too late.
> 
> Wolf's testimony indicates he was a "nice guy" at one point too.
> 
> My experience indicates that's the road to hell.


Conrad

Some women are easy to deal with, some women are difficult to deal with. Some women are easy to please, some women are difficult to be content. 

Sometimes I think: how about going to the countryside and look for simple girls?


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Greenpearl, maybe it would help you to think of the forum as a transition place. Maybe like waiting in an airport lounge for a connecting flight. Bob


Call me crazy, but I would have thought that people having trouble with their marriage would value input from people who weren't. You can get good information on what NOT to do from people who have not succeeded. But you can also learn from people who have and/or are succeeding. (OR seem to be at the moment.)

That is certainly what I wanted when I went to a usenet group all those years ago (before the death of usenet). THE most helpful people there for me were the ones who were succeeding at their marriages.


----------



## Mom6547

BigBadWolf said:


> 'But the irony is, we don't actually want men like that, and we end up eventually resenting them for not being more dominant and fearless.'
> 
> Good men, read this last part as many times as it takes to sink in!


You've probably guessed from other posts that I think this gender generalization stuff is largely useless... 

I think the house work issue is a red herring, a kind of cultural expectation that men and women are going to fight about it.

I remember when DH and I were first married, he was totally unaccustomed to doing any housework. His mother had done it all for him. One of the sage pieces of advice I got from a group I belonged to at the time was that I don't get to determine for HIM what the standard for housekeeping should be. His desire to allow it to be messy was just as valid as my desire to be more neat. He does not OWE me housework to MY standards. BUT I also did not owe him free maid service. I took care of the housekeeping that *I* wanted to take care of. I did not begrudge him what he did not do. We both worked. No kids.

I will never forget the day he came to me irate because he had no clean underwear. I asked him if he remembered where he had left the laundry machine! Did he think I was his maid? Oh yah. I guess I wasn't. If I was going to work a professional job, out earn him by a boat load, why was *I* expected to do all the housework?!?

That said, I wasn't as ******* about it. I made dinner, it is not like i made it just for me. When I cleaned the shared spaces, I would put his stuff in a basket for him...

I live in a fairly progressive place. I know SAHDs who do the housework while Mom the lawyer brings in the bacon. 

Some of us just don't think in these gender stereotypical terms. Or maybe learn to get over them as they do seem to be all over the place in USAian culture.


----------



## Conrad

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Call me crazy, but I would have thought that people having trouble with their marriage would value input from people who weren't. You can get good information on what NOT to do from people who have not succeeded. But you can also learn from people who have and/or are succeeding. (OR seem to be at the moment.)
> 
> That is certainly what I wanted when I went to a usenet group all those years ago (before the death of usenet). THE most helpful people there for me were the ones who were succeeding at their marriages.


The definition of "expert" is one who has made every possible mistake.


----------



## Scannerguard

I think there is a useful generalization here but it's hidden.

I think if housework starts to be a "Main Role" of a husband, yes. . .women will resent it eventually and find it unattractive.

But if a husband can define his roles elsewhere in the relationship and let that define him mostly, a woman will tolerate a little mopping and dusting and appreciate it.

Hey, I also admit I wouldn't want my woman mowing the lawn.

They don't do it right when they try. They miss grass on the turns and they don't apply the chemicals in the right combination and such.

Just like men don't do the laundry correctly but we can do a load of towels or something. Don't ask us to fold it neatly either although I have gotten better at foldign underwear over the years when I was henpecked.


----------



## Conrad

My ex secretly followed me around and "re-did" the laundry.

That was an easy problem to solve.

Of course, when I'd find mildewed laundry forgotten in the machine, there were a few anxious moments.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> I think there is a useful generalization here but it's hidden.
> 
> I think if housework starts to be a "Main Role" of a husband, yes. . .women will resent it eventually and find it unattractive.


I find this positively amazing that you are telling *women on this board* what *women* will and won't find attractive! Or maybe you are just talking to the other neanderthal men.



> Hey, I also admit I wouldn't want my woman mowing the lawn.


Your manhood would be challenged by MOWING?!?

Boy are you a piece of work.


----------



## Conrad

Neanderthal?

Next you'll decry violence while throwing knives.


----------



## Trenton

Another thread where stereotypes abound! I can't imagine how limited my life would feel if I lived so confined.

My husband and I do the yard work together. I've mowed the lawn and done a fine job, he is better at laundry than me but I do most of the cooking while he does all the desserts. Now it's great because our daughter does the lawn for $10 and she does a fine job too. It's really not rocket science.

The more I read from men who claim that their lack of dominance is what caused the end of their relationship, the more I want to vomit. It's not that you were a nice guy. You don't come off as nice at all. You come off as bitter, sex stalking, selfish, stereotyping jerks that aren't open enough to receive love from anyone.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> Another thread where stereotypes abound! I can't imagine how limited my life would feel if I lived so confined.
> 
> My husband and I do the yard work together. I've mowed the lawn and done a fine job,


You could not POSSIBLY! You are far too stupid to learn something like ... mowing. 


> he is better at laundry than me but I do most of the cooking while he does all the desserts.


Did his unit fall off from doing laundry?


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Another thread where stereotypes abound! I can't imagine how limited my life would feel if I lived so confined.
> 
> My husband and I do the yard work together. I've mowed the lawn and done a fine job, he is better at laundry than me but I do most of the cooking while he does all the desserts. Now it's great because our daughter does the lawn for $10 and she does a fine job too. It's really not rocket science.
> 
> The more I read from men who claim that their lack of dominance is what caused the end of their relationship, the more I want to vomit. It's not that you were a nice guy. You don't come off as nice at all. You come off as bitter, sex stalking, selfish, stereotyping jerks that aren't open enough to receive love from anyone.


But let's not generalize, ok?


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> But let's not generalize, ok?


The irony is not lost on me.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> You could not POSSIBLY! You are far too stupid to learn something like ... mowing.
> 
> Did his unit fall off from doing laundry?


Ah me, his unit is still intact! 

I like lawn mowing. The smell of grass and gas mixed with the beauty of summer. It's true, quite a sight to see when I pull on that string with the black plastic handle and hold back the larger metal handle to get things started. sigh.


----------



## Nekko

I still don't get why you're so annoyed by anything that men want to call a "man's thing". If most men find lawn mowing a masculine thing and don't want their women to do it, what's the problem? I'd be completely turned off by my man putting on make-up, for example. yes, it's pretty extreme but maybe that's how some men feel about their women mowing the lawn. If your men don't that's ok. Just don't make others feel bad by thinking that, they're entitled to their opinions. 

Having said that, i've drilled holes, built furniture with my guy, helped him detail his car. He, on the other hand has cooked, cleaned up the house and did the laundry (including my underwear). And vice versa. We're still doing most of that. As long as we keep our femininity and masculinity intact so that we keep attracting eachother (meaning he on occasion proves dominant, confident, manly, whatever and i on occasion prove loving, sweet and flirty or whatever he thinks is womanly - generally have to ask your partner on how he/she feels about this). 

But keep in mind that two years ago we didn't encourage any gender differences at all ( i was the "i can do anything a man can kinda gal) and it did lead to a year where there was no sex or attraction whatsoever on both our parts. I still wanted sex for the sake of it, he didn't want it at all. So from a personal experience, completely ignoring gender roles might in some occasions render you a sexless, passionless marriage.


----------



## AFEH

Nekko said:


> I still don't get why you're so annoyed by anything that men want to call a "man's thing". If most men find lawn mowing a masculine thing and don't want their women to do it, what's the problem? I'd be completely turned off by my man putting on make-up, for example. yes, it's pretty extreme but maybe that's how some men feel about their women mowing the lawn. If your men don't that's ok. Just don't make others feel bad by thinking that, they're entitled to their opinions.
> 
> Having said that, i've drilled holes, built furniture with my guy, helped him detail his car. He, on the other hand has cooked, cleaned up the house and did the laundry (including my underwear). And vice versa. We're still doing most of that. As long as we keep our femininity and masculinity intact so that we keep attracting eachother (meaning he on occasion proves dominant, confident, manly, whatever and i on occasion prove loving, sweet and flirty or whatever he thinks is womanly - generally have to ask your partner on how he/she feels about this).
> 
> But keep in mind that two years ago we didn't encourage any gender differences at all ( i was the "i can do anything a man can kinda gal) and it did lead to a year where there was no sex or attraction whatsoever on both our parts. I still wanted sex for the sake of it, he didn't want it at all. So from a personal experience, completely ignoring gender roles might in some occasions render you a sexless, passionless marriage.


Yes. It’s people expressing their own values and beliefs, their opinions about life. In fact it’s a whole kaleidoscope of opinions. It’s interesting to see and sometimes learn from.

But getting that annoyed and irate? Even something to learn from there. Like respect for another’s opinions no matter how different they are from ours and as importantly I think to accept people for who they are.

I think it really good to see different opinions and life styles, ways of being. Here we can walk a while and chat to people we’d never come across in any other way. Maybe have even deeper conversations than normal simply because we’re more or less anonymous.

There’s even an additional benefit. Trenton posted in another thread “Ironically, I didn't realize how good our sex life was till coming to this forum or how poorly I was treating him. It's opened up unexplored lines of communication between the two of us and I've started exploring some new things with him. So, being here has helped me as well but for different reasons”.

Surely that happens to many here? Hearing other’s stories sometimes wildly different from our own with those different opinions about life can make us truly appreciate what we have? I bet Trenton and her husband’s already benefited from it!

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Nekko said:


> I still don't get why you're so annoyed by anything that men want to call a "man's thing". If most men find lawn mowing a masculine thing and don't want their women to do it, what's the problem?


I am not annoyed. I like conversation. I am on this board because my weekdays tend to be boring. I am procrastinating because as soon as I leave, I am going for a run. We live in a very hilly place. So ... the longer I hang out here, the longer I can put off an evil run.

He said that women CAN'T mow. If you LET a woman mow, she screws it all up. Yah I guess that strikes me funny.





> I'd be completely turned off by my man putting on make-up, for example. yes, it's pretty extreme but maybe that's how some men feel about their women mowing the lawn. If your men don't that's ok. Just don't make others feel bad by thinking that, they're entitled to their opinions.


Of course they are entitled to their opinions. Like I am in a position to change their opinion. But this is a place to discuss opinion, is it not? What would be the point if we all agreed.


----------



## AFEH

Bring back the days when women weren’t even allowed into the golf clubhouse, unless they were cleaning, let alone out on the hallowed course itself. When women retired to the drawing room after a meal and the men got down to the real business at hand!!!

No wonder the worlds in the mess it is. It all when wrong when we gave them the vote!!!

Bob


----------



## less_disgruntled

FWIW.

My mom was born late in her parents' marriage--her brother and sister were 13 and 15 years old at the time. She didn't do much in the way of chores, cooking, etc. It was only until a few years ago she actually learned how to cook decent food. My dad left home when he was 15, and lived in some very isolated areas doing work like mineral surveying. That meant he had to clean dishes and do laundry himself.

I modeled a lot of my dad's behaviors. Mostly because I had to, it was the kid's job, not my mom's, to clean the kitchen after dinner. I clean up the yard, work on the cars and do the laundry and dishes. My brother and sister, though, are lazy as hell around their respective houses. Likewise I lived on my own for years. I mean if I didn't wash my dishes--i didn't have anything to eat from. I don't do this crap b/c I'm a "nice guy." I do it b/c I don't like coming home and finding out that there are no clean drinking vessels in the house. When I do the laundry it's b/c I only own five pairs of underwear, not b/c my wife is "making" me do it. I can't wait for her to get it done. Seriously how much time does it take to load a washing machine? One minute? Two? I know, I know, "GROW A PARE MAKE UR WIFE DO IT", if I don't call her when she's two hours away at a meeting and demand that she come rinse some pots and pans for me and make me a sandwich I'm not a real man.

Ask yourselves: did the "good old days" really exist? b/c something tells me that all those "real men" out on cattle drives and farms and in tenement buildings did a big share of women's work. Or actually I guess they just called their wives on their cell phones and told them to get on a train then a horse to scrub the cast-iron skillets in time for dinner, right? Just because you old farts have idolized your ridiculous father-knows-best / feminine-mystique view of 1950s middle class comfort and acted like it exists for all time doesn't mean that crap is in your genes. ("Good Old Days: Only Valid 15 August 1945 to 1 January 1960").

OTOH, I did sometimes cook dinner for us b/c I missed having heavy, simple meals (my wife thinks tofu and steamed vegetables with some overwrought french-style sauce are adequate), but it became clear to me that my wife didn't respect that, so I stopped. But then she asks why I don't help with dinner anymore. So I think misery might just be human.


----------



## AFEH

You can't even get the food you want on your plate. Think about it.

Bob


----------



## Zammo

> The more I read from men who claim that their lack of dominance is what caused the end of their relationship, the more I want to vomit. It's not that you were a nice guy. You don't come off as nice at all. You come off as bitter, sex stalking, selfish, stereotyping jerks that aren't open enough to receive love from anyone.


This is shaming language and is used to avoid a rational discussion on the matter. In fact, when the response is anger or shaming language, it's a very strong indicator that the original point was correct!

The problem is that housework has been savagely politicized over the years. Doing a man's laundry is no longer a generous act from a devoted and caring wife. Doing a man's laundry is his oppression and a manifestation of the evil patriarchy!

Additionally, certain words and phrases have been politicized. Dominance implies submission and the word "submission" is completely anathema to the modern woman because it implies... you guessed it... oppression by the evil patriarchy!

Political correctness has intruded into the very nature of how wives and husbands interact. So a wife might truly want her husband to take the lead in the relationship and running the household but the current social expectation is that the wife should be completely and utterly equal to her husband, hence, score keeping. How's that working in the age of a 50% divorce rate with women filing over 70% of divorces?

Couples need to find their own marital balance without social pressures interfering. Housework ain't oppression. A man's desire to take the lead ain't the patriarchy at work. A woman's desire to let the man be a man is perfectly reasonable. Men aren't neanderthals, they are men and it's high time that wives let their men be men.


----------



## Deejo

Don't get me started on cooking.

Is teaching young girls to cook now considered somehow sexist?


----------



## AFEH

My hobby horse is sex education for 10 years olds and above. I read recently they’re contemplating starting at 7.

The end result of this over the past 25 years is that England has the highest birth rate of under 16s and the highest number of single parent families in Europe, I think the world as well but I’m not certain. A lot of mothers have children by three or four different men, none of them knowing their father. Along with sex education came the ban on the morning assembly and religious instruction to “not offend the minorities”. So these youngsters have no moral code to live by either. It’s a time bomb just waiting to go off. And there’s nothing to be done about it as it has now gone on for a few generations and has become a way of life for so many people.

The financial cost to those living in “normal families” is massive. Latest reports say that out of 4.5 million households in England without a wage earner, 33% of them are single parent families. The next at 22% is people living by themselves.

It’s liberalisation/feminism gone mad. Bring back the cane! Never did me or my mates any harm. Maybe we’d get some order back in the classroom so that those who want to learn can.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> Don't get me started on cooking.
> 
> Is teaching young girls to cook now considered somehow sexist?


No! Teaching young PEOPLE to cook is a good life skill. They also need to learn how to do laundry, etc... Well not learning how, because laundry is not exactly hard. But that they are expected to maintain themselves is a lesson everyone should learn!


----------



## Mom6547

Zammo said:


> Political correctness has intruded into the very nature of how wives and husbands interact. So a wife might truly want her husband to take the lead in the relationship and running the household but the current social expectation is that the wife should be completely and utterly equal to her husband, hence, score keeping. How's that working in the age of a 50% divorce rate with women filing over 70% of divorces?


Oh! Fun! The blaming feminism for divorce nonsense. Joy.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> No! Teaching young PEOPLE to cook is a good life skill. They also need to learn how to do laundry, etc... Well not learning how, because laundry is not exactly hard. But that they are expected to maintain themselves is a lesson everyone should learn!


“Young PEOPLE”. Yeh Righto.

Believe it or not there's a lot of difference between boys and girls from the earliest possible age. The difference comes 2 weeks after conception when testosterone is added to the mix, by the mother bearing the child of course. From that time on there’s a massive difference no matter how much some people want to neuter the boys. Young people indeed. My goodness you have been well and truly brainwashed. You actually believe what you are saying.

Schools spend way too much time being liberal and politically correct. Now teach a young son the workings of the internal combustion engine and watch his interest grow. Give him girly things to like “bake fairy cakes” just what do you end up with? Next it’ll be changing nappies on dolls. Oh they do that nowadays in school.

And when all this has gone full term where are all those millions of men going to be? You know all those men in the great wars who picked up guns and went of to kill to stop their women being raped by foreigners? You’ll want your man to be a man then surely. Or will you pick up a gun and kill to protect your children?

Plenty of time for a man to learn how to cook later in life, when needs dictate or he takes a liking to it.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

vthomeschoolmom said:


> No! Teaching young PEOPLE to cook is a good life skill. They also need to learn how to do laundry, etc... Well not learning how, because laundry is not exactly hard. But that they are expected to maintain themselves is a lesson everyone should learn!


Nope. I meant girls.

I know how to cook. My dad is a great cook. So is my mom for that matter. I see it as a family thing that gets passed down. Just wondering if it doesn't get passed down now that many mothers simply don't have time.

My ex doesn't.

My SIL doesn't.

My nieces don't.

My GF doesn't.

Few years back my father bought my spouse and SIL cookbooks for Christmas. They sheepishly chuckled - but still never opened them.

Don't suppose it can be sexist given that the top chef's in the world are men.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I normally agree with me but your post made my jaw drop. So it's one or the other. A man can either cook or weild a gun and by teaching boys cooking skills that makes them fruity/sissies and women exposed to rape? wth? Hmm, tell that to an Eagle Scout. Or my gun weilding professional chef next door neighbor. 
And for what it's worth, yes, I can protect my own children just fine. Most mother's can. Some can even lift up cars to do so.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
It should be a family thing, agreed. Both my boys are EXCELLENT cooks. But then again, so am I. What I think Trenton was saying is that the women shouldn't be the only ones taught to cook.


----------



## Deejo

AFEH said:


> “Young PEOPLE”. Yeh Righto.
> 
> Believe it or not there's a lot of difference between boys and girls from the earliest possible age. The difference comes 2 weeks after conception when testosterone is added to the mix, by the mother bearing the child of course. From that time on there’s a massive difference no matter how much some people want to neuter the boys. Young people indeed. My goodness you have been well and truly brainwashed. You actually believe what you are saying.
> 
> Schools spend way too much time being liberal and politically correct. Now teach a young son the workings of the internal combustion engine and watch his interest grow. Give him girly things to like “bake fairy cakes” just what do you end up with? Next it’ll be changing nappies on dolls. Oh they do that nowadays in school.
> 
> And when all this has gone full term where are all those millions of men going to be? You know all those men in the great wars who picked up guns and went of to kill to stop their women being raped by foreigners? You’ll want your man to be a man then surely. Or will you pick up a gun and kill to protect your children?
> 
> Plenty of time for a man to learn how to cook later in life, when needs dictate or he takes a liking to it.
> 
> Bob


I'll have you know Bob, I make a mean "fairy cake". Half butter and half vegetable shortening, that's the key to a light, airy, and friggin delicious fairy cake. 

I do fairy cake like nobody's business.

I also make an outstanding 'Angry Chicken Soup' which incorporates Thai Chili Sauce. Kills colds dead.


----------



## Trenton

How many men are great Chefs?

As for my comment...it was said out of frustration, not some "irate" place of anger. I have this image in my head of a crazed woman yelling at her keyboard and it's humorous. I'm not that impassioned on this topic. 

The fact that I made generalizations was not lost on me though and although there is a kernel of truth to my words, odds are just as likely they are flawed because of the generalizations. Still, just as my unpopular adversary point of view might be frustrating for some, it is very hard for me to talk to others who are complaining all the time that they know what women want but at the same time complain so much about them while also saying they want the very thing they are complaining about.


----------



## Trenton

I see I'm a little late on the Chef thingy. haha

I don't see cooking as feminine at all. I think that's an outdated view that men broke the glass ceiling on a long time ago but Deejo I know many amazing female cooks as well. I think it's become a hobby or career for many and is equal parts science and creativity so it's a great one to have.


----------



## Zammo

> Oh! Fun! The blaming feminism for divorce nonsense. Joy.


The two are certainly related! But the fix is not to turn back the clock but to educate men and then to re-tool the entire concept of marriage.

Athol Kay's blog is an excellent primer in educating men about women and should be required reading for potential grooms.

As for re-tooling the concept of marriage, that discussion has barely started.


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> “Young PEOPLE”. Yeh Righto.
> 
> Believe it or not there's a lot of difference between boys and girls from the earliest possible age. The difference comes 2 weeks after conception when testosterone is added to the mix, by the mother bearing the child of course. From that time on there’s a massive difference no matter how much some people want to neuter the boys. Young people indeed. My goodness you have been well and truly brainwashed. You actually believe what you are saying.


My son cooks really, really well. He is 9. My husband is a fantastic cook. Well maybe as good as I am. But it is hard to say because we have different specialties. But I tell you what. I will never order alfredo in a restaurant again!

Of course men and women are different. We are the same (legs, arms, eyes) and we are different. Viva la difference! But what does that have to do with teaching your children how to live. I sure don't want my kids dependent on some man/woman to do for them what they can do for themselves!



> Schools spend way too much time being liberal and politically correct.


Well you won't get any argument out of me that schools spend too much time doing useless things. Notice my handle?



> Now teach a young son the workings of the internal combustion engine and watch his interest grow. Give him girly things to like “bake fairy cakes” just what do you end up with?


YES! Teach our children according to their interests! And watch my daughter take a sincere interest in wood working. And my son in hip hop and break dancing. Both in yoga. Both in math. 

But EVERYONE should learn the basics of taking care of themselves IMO.



> Next it’ll be changing nappies on dolls. Oh they do that nowadays in school.
> 
> And when all this has gone full term where are all those millions of men going to be? You know all those men in the great wars who picked up guns and went of to kill to stop their women being raped by foreigners? You’ll want your man to be a man then surely.


Well certainly my husband knows how to operate a fire arm. But then so do I. I would rather make sure my children know how to take care of themselves. Damned straight my son and daughter are going to learn self defense and how to safely use arms.




> Or will you pick up a gun and kill to protect your children?


Of course. 


> Plenty of time for a man to learn how to cook later in life, when needs dictate or he takes a liking to it.
> 
> Bob


Why would you hobble your children by not teaching something just because someone somewhere labeled it for girls? or boys? They enjoy cooking NOW. I think we will roll with it.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> It should be a family thing, agreed. Both my boys are EXCELLENT cooks. But then again, so am I. What I think Trenton was saying is that the women shouldn't be the only ones taught to cook.


That wasn't me but since we both have strong viewpoints I can see that many are confusing me with vthome even though we don't agree on everything. I can live with this though since I consider her articulate, intelligent and strong willed. I hear she has a smoking hot body and is drop dead gorgeous and has been able to move mountains to do her bidding as well.


----------



## Deejo

I imagine both of you as capable, independent, fiery and hot. Kind of like Jennifer Beals from Flashdance, leg-warmers and all.

No offense. Just grant me the damn fantasy ...


Heeelloooo Alex ...


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I imagine both of you as capable, independent, fiery and hot. Kind of like Jennifer Beals from Flashdance, leg-warmers and all.
> 
> No offense. Just grant me the damn fantasy ...


Leg warmers, eh?


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> Don't suppose it can be sexist given that the top chef's in the world are men.


Oh are you saying that feminist ideals have made females not look to their own learning? Well of course I agree with you there. I think all good notions have the ability to go overboard. I do feel that feminists themselves can be their (notice I say their and not our, I certainly don't identify as a feminist) worst enemy. 

I think that there is definitely a rejection of all "roles" that are viewed as feminine. Sort of like the pendulum swinging too far, in a reactionary fashion, in the other direction. I think that is just dumb. I remember in high school, I had taken all the advanced Math, all the advanced science, french and latin. I wanted to take typing. My Mom would not let me for fear that it would lead to ideas of my becoming a secretary. (Normally my Mom is really sensible. Not sure what happened there.) But seriously... how stupid is that?

But kids not learning to cook or clean has less to do with gender roles and feminism than systemic crappy parenting in my opinion. Parents seem to think it is their job to make sure little johnny and sarah are never challenged to think, do, contribute, learn... But that is another rant.


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> I imagine both of you as capable, independent, fiery and hot. Kind of like Jennifer Beals from Flashdance, leg-warmers and all.
> 
> No offense. Just grant me the damn fantasy ...


Without the 80s hair? Please?


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I normally agree with me but your post made my jaw drop. So it's one or the other. A man can either cook or weild a gun and by teaching boys cooking skills that makes them fruity/sissies and women exposed to rape? wth? Hmm, tell that to an Eagle Scout. Or my gun weilding professional chef next door neighbor.
> And for what it's worth, yes, I can protect my own children just fine. Most mother's can. Some can even lift up cars to do so.


Hi Brennan I’m glad you normally agree with yourself, typos can be funny.

I was giving some illustrations, intentionally emotive illustrations. But that’s what happens isn’t it? When push comes to shove. Now if you can get an army of 4 million women together to go and do battle with the enemy then that’s fine by me, I’ll stay at home.

For me boys and girls are exceptionally different and that difference starts out in the womb two weeks after conception. As far as I understand it, it’s the testosterone that turns what would have been a clitoris into a penis. Apparently we were all born female, the difference comes two weeks after conception. But it’s not just the organs that are different. It sometimes feels like it’s two different species who can successfully mate and then try to get along with one another, sometimes like ships passing in the night. Sometimes we just see the lights, not what’s inside.

To call them “young people” as opposed to calling them the boys and girls they really are is I think to do them disservice and everything else that follows along with it.

Of course this is the Men’s Club. I could go onto say that the majority of the world’s renowned chefs are men. Some like shooting. I could go and say that all the worlds greatest philosophers, poets, artists, composers, scientists, pharmacists etc. etc. are men and that there are far many more of them than there are women. But I do that at the cost of being seen as “sexist” by some people.

Men should be proud to be a Man in the true sense of the word. As women should be proud to be Women in the true sense of the word. At one time both men and women knew what that was and what they could be proud of. I think this whole thread is about that, the changes in the gender roles in marriage. Some things have been gained while others have been lost.

Bob
PS: My eldest son is a Man and he cooks. I’m not saying it’s wrong by any means. Should have seen him doing a Christmas goose dinner, it was both fabulous to watch and to eat. He’s also with an exceptionally beautiful woman who does everything a man does, well almost. But I can’t see her ever wearing the pants in the relationship. If she does she’ll want to be off and I know my son will never “cave in”, no matter what.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> I hear she has a smoking hot body and is drop dead gorgeous and has been able to move mountains to do her bidding as well.


Whoever said that, I want to meet him or her. I will be his or her love slave forever!


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Men should be proud to be a Man in the true sense of the word. As women should be proud to be Women in the true sense of the word.


I guess I don't really understand this. When I accomplish, I am proud. I am not super proud to be part of some random group. Some groups to which I am belong:
- human
- female
- mother
- daughter
- sister
- soccer coach
- dancer
- would-be yogi
- would-be runner
- would-be weight lifter
- cook

But BEING those things gives me no pride. Doing WELL gives me pride. What it means to me to be a good WOMAN would be, surviving child birth (not trivial), learning to nurse my babies despite difficulty... Those seem to me to be particularly female things to do. 

But being proud of being a woman... I don't know why that would give me particular pride. 



> At one time both men and women knew what that was and what they could be proud of. I think this whole thread is about that, the changes in the gender roles in marriage. Some things have been gained while others have been lost.


Well I think I can agree with that, though I am not 100% certain we would agree with what was lost. 



> Bob
> PS: My eldest son is a Man and he cooks. I’m not saying it’s wrong by any means. Should have seen him doing a Christmas goose dinner, it was both fabulous to watch and to eat.


Well I would LOVE an invitation to THAT.



> He’s also with an exceptionally beautiful woman who does everything a man does, well almost. But I can’t see her ever wearing the pants in the relationship. If she does she’ll want to be off and I know my son will never “cave in”, no matter what.


No one really wants a weenie, male or female. Confidence is good. What if there are no pants in the relationship? What if the issue of "control" just wasn't an issue?


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Hi Brennan I’m glad you normally agree with yourself, typos can be funny.
> 
> I was giving some illustrations, intentionally emotive illustrations. But that’s what happens isn’t it? When push comes to shove. Now if you can get an army of 4 million women together to go and do battle with the enemy then that’s fine by me, I’ll stay at home.
> 
> For me boys and girls are exceptionally different and that difference starts out in the womb two weeks after conception. As far as I understand it, it’s the testosterone that turns what would have been a clitoris into a penis. Apparently we were all born female, the difference comes two weeks after conception. But it’s not just the organs that are different. It sometimes feels like it’s two different species who can successfully mate and then try to get along with one another, sometimes like ships passing in the night. Sometimes we just see the lights, not what’s inside.
> 
> To call them “young people” as opposed to calling them the boys and girls they really are is I think to do them disservice and everything else that follows along with it.
> 
> Of course this is the Men’s Club. I could go onto say that the majority of the world’s renowned chefs are men. Some like shooting. I could go and say that all the worlds greatest philosophers, poets, artists, composers, scientists, pharmacists etc. etc. are men and that there are far many more of them than there are women. But I do that at the cost of being seen as “sexist” by some people.
> 
> Men should be proud to be a Man in the true sense of the word. As women should be proud to be Women in the true sense of the word. At one time both men and women knew what that was and what they could be proud of. I think this whole thread is about that, the changes in the gender roles in marriage. Some things have been gained while others have been lost.
> 
> Bob
> PS: My eldest son is a Man and he cooks. I’m not saying it’s wrong by any means. Should have seen him doing a Christmas goose dinner, it was both fabulous to watch and to eat. He’s also with an exceptionally beautiful woman who does everything a man does, well almost. But I can’t see her ever wearing the pants in the relationship. If she does she’ll want to be off and I know my son will never “cave in”, no matter what.


Your stats will change with time as in women now earn 57% of all college degrees (stated this in another thread). Women need some time to catch up. Although I doubt women would walk to war and imagine them instead calling for peace, this is not politically correct either. 

The founder of Kiva, Jessica Jackley, has eradicated poverty from the lives of millions through her work. I work with hundreds of strong women who change the world for the better every day. I work with some men too but the majority are women. Watch Jessica, her emotions at the end...the source of weakness and strength for women...beautiful. Perhaps we need to celebrate the differences in our gender rather than criticize as well as be willing to embrace our similarities.

Jessica Jackley: Poverty, money -- and love | Video on TED.com


----------



## AFEH

Maybe there’ll come a day when in schools they’ll teach the difference between boys and girls, men and women from an early age. And I mean far more than the difference in the organs. Far more than that. Maybe they’ll even go into the evolution of the species and how men and women “came to be different”. And just maybe that very difference will be truly celebrated in the way it should be. Just maybe our differences will be amplified, instead of all mixed up.

I think that would have been very easy at one time, up until two or three decades ago. It would have been “clear cut” who do what and why kind of thing.

Any historian trying to sort out in a hundred or thousand years time what happened and why re the gender roles over the past few decades is I think going to have one almighty headache.

But it is a sea change so it will be noted by historians of the future. Where that sea change is going to take us who knows? Right now we can get married in five minutes at minimal legal cost, and divorced often tortuously at massive legal cost. Right now divorce rates are higher than they’ve ever been historically and right now there are more single mothers bringing up children by themselves than ever before.

Something changed. What was it?

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

How has anything changed? Watch Saturday morning cartoon commercials. The message is clear: boys build things and create things, girls bake and dream of being princesses. Then if there just happens to be a girl who might want to build something with, let's say, Legos, they have an entire different line for them. Not a rocket ship, not a boat.....pink and purple bricks to build a house, a kitchen, a crib. The message is still alive, loud and clear.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton,
You had me at Kiva. I think I love you. Best damn organization out there and what I give for gifts to every single person in my family. It truly is the gift that keeps on giving. Well that and re-gifted fruitcake.


----------



## Trenton

What changed was women didn't want to be in such limiting roles. They recognized that men did have all the control and were taking advantage of it. 

There are places where women are still stoned to death, with the father of the woman throwing the first stone, if she commits adultery. Places where young girls are married off at the age of nine and live a life of voiceless repression. Places where young girls are held down by their mothers as their clitorises are cut off so that they will be more appealing to a possible mate. We are all presently aware that there are places where women must hide all of their femininity so as not to tempt men. 

Oh I could go on and on and on and on. There are truly important reasons why women have stood up for themselves and men have also stood up for them. We need to continue to.

_Back on topic...
One thing I read here all the time...that both parties are responsible for the end of their marriage, troubles in the marriage as well as success in their marriage. Don't you think the same is true in regards to divorce rates and everything else currently in our society? We are all responsible for this._


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> You had me at Kiva. I think I love you. Best damn organization out there and what I give for gifts to every single person in my family. It truly is the gift that keeps on giving. Well that and re-gifted fruitcake.


I honestly can't think of a better organization. She and others have now begun Profounder which allows entrepreneurs to seek funding with forms, business plans and terms from friends and family. I was thinking recently that it might be interesting to bring Kiva to the USA. If you set up a mentor-ship plan with Small Business Association and streamlined the business plan model it would be possible to offer small investors to invest in at home success stories. Was hashing this out with my husband last night. I think it would be exciting!


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Something changed. What was it?
> 
> Bob


Sometimes change is good.


----------



## less_disgruntled

AFEH said:


> You can't even get the food you want on your plate. Think about it.
> 
> Bob


No, my wife is an excellent cook, and will make everything except for kidneys, liver and brains if I ask. Hell, I'd start to think that was downright unseemly for a woman to eat pork skin. She will go out of her way to make starchy foods for me. I mean that I have a different idea about style and presentation. I've got no problem with "health food" either (b/c in America anything resembling a vegetable must be something terrorists introduced). I mean that I didn't know what arugula or au pav sauce were before I met her and I may be the only person on earth who thinks hog fat is a vitamin. You know, some people see a pig and think of the movie Babe, other people see a supermarket on legs.


----------



## less_disgruntled

AFEH said:


> Maybe there’ll come a day when in schools they’ll teach the difference between boys and girls, men and women from an early age. And I mean far more than the difference in the organs. Far more than that. Maybe they’ll even go into the evolution of the species and how men and women “came to be different”.


That's right, I forgot about the all-important "dishwashing gene" that evolved on the African Savannah.


----------



## Deejo

less_disgruntled said:


> That's right, I forgot about the all-important "dishwashing gene" that evolved on the African Savannah.


...Which led to wet hands and males being able to produce armpit farts. Males find armpit farts hysterical. I know I do. Females do not share this humorous fascination.This is how the dishwashing gene was suppressed in Australopithecine males.

Poop flinging was always good for a laugh too, until the random hominid got hit with their mouth open. Females most certainly were not amused by this antic, it did not attract hot monkey women, so was later abandoned as a pick-up technique. This is also why we wash our hands.

I really don't have an excuse for any of this. It's late in the day, and I'm off Adderall. Boy I hope this isn't a thread killer ...


----------



## Mom6547

My daughter loves armpit farts. She definitely thinks they are hysterical!


----------



## Deejo

vthomeschoolmom said:


> My daughter loves armpit farts. She definitely thinks they are hysterical!


Please nurture and accept the joy she gets from potty humor.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> How has anything changed? Watch Saturday morning cartoon commercials. The message is clear: boys build things and create things, girls bake and dream of being princesses. Then if there just happens to be a girl who might want to build something with, let's say, Legos, they have an entire different line for them. Not a rocket ship, not a boat.....pink and purple bricks to build a house, a kitchen, a crib. The message is still alive, loud and clear.


Well let's agree to differ on that one. Must be my age. Any boy seen cooking or baking when I was at school would have been taunted and called a sissy. Not saying it’s right, it’s how it was. The boys places were in metalwork and woodwork classes, never did see a girl in there. But then along came, wait for it “Domestic Science”. Ha! What a cover up that is. It is a massive change. I’m glad my sons hung onto their balls even through that lot. Some don’t make it though.

Reckon there’s a big conspiracy with you women, teach the men while they’re young to do your jobs lol. But when men do it seems to me most women don’t like it. It’s quite a serious treading on their turf. Plus they want a man to do what a man should do. Women can understand that even though it can infuriate the heck out of them at times.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

I feel so sorry for you, Bob. Life is gonna pass you by because you can't or won't adapt. Life IS change.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I feel so sorry for you, Bob. Life is gonna pass you by because you can't or won't adapt. Life IS change.


That’s nice but there’s no need to feel sorry for me, no need at all. If I peg it tomorrow I’ll go a happy man. I’ve had a very fulfilling life and one with exceptionally few regrets. I still have a very fulfilling life and occasionally pinch myself to make sure I’m not in a dream. I’m 61, play tennis and squash and a bit of badminton for the social side of things. My BMI is spot on and I’m as fit as I was when I was 30. Every day I go for a walk along one of the three beaches I live by. I spend time in cafes with a coffee just talking with friends and anyone who’s around. I flirt a little which is nice. My bedroom balcony overlooks the most spherical bay in the world. I live amongst the most friendly, genuine people I’ve ever known and I lived in a few different countries to get where I am. I eat local grown fruit and veg and cook all my meals and eat out when I want. I’ve a lady that bakes me cakes and so many friends around me I feel truly blessed. I recently helped organise a 60s night out and 70 friends and acquaintances came along and we were up until 2 in the morning. I’m as busy as I want to be with fixing computers, taking and selling photos printed on canvas plus some other things and I’m learning a new language, which is proving somewhat difficult. I’m planting fruit trees, lemon, orange, peaches, cherries, figs in my garden to make an orchard and I’m thinking about getting chickens in to keep the weeds down. I have little money worries. I struggle at times having separated from my wife of 40 years. I saw the image of her this morning walking up the hill to my home and tears just came to my eyes but I get through. And joy of joy my younger son is coming up from Lisbon next month to stay with me for a while. He loves his mother very deeply and it’s a really big thing for both of us. I pray that the two of us can now have a truly meaningful relationship.

At 61 I’m by myself for the first time ever and not once in the past year have I felt lonely. But I’m getting to think that way but I’m not ready as yet for a new woman in my life. I don’t know that I ever will be, I can’t see anybody replacing my wife and the thought doesn’t worry me. I don’t really want to let anybody in. 

“Life is change”. That used to be my motto, my mantra. Very much the adopter and not the adapter, very much ahead of the curve. Sometimes I was so far ahead when I looked around there was no one there lol. Always stepping way outside my comfort zone for new challenges and to learn. Not now though. Now it’s consolidation time. Make what I have safe and secure, it’s already very comfortable. I’m still ahead of the curve as one of the new breed who divorce in their 60s after a lifetime of marriage! I didn’t want to do it. It wasn’t my dream but I didn’t like what I saw ahead of me one little bit. Brave new world and all that.


No vthomeschoolmomt there’s no need to feel sorry for me. It’s nice of you but a wasted emotion on me.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

I am glad to hear that. You seem a genuinely nice person.


----------



## Trenton

Bob, my dad is 60. He's not like you at all so age can't really be an excuse. He is a strong advocate for human rights including women and such a progressive thinking guy. If he spoke like you type I would fall out of my chair. Then again, he raised my sister and I to not be afraid to challenge long held beliefs, follow our dreams and fight for what we believe and he supported my Mom while she went to school to become the computer programmer she is today. I adore him and look up to him.


----------



## Mom6547

My Dad was the same as yours, Trenton. We all did the same stuff, boys and girls. And he considered himself old school Catholic! We all scrubbed toilets and went fishing.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> My Dad was the same as yours, Trenton. We all did the same stuff, boys and girls. And he considered himself old school Catholic! We all scrubbed toilets and went fishing.


Yep, might be because my Dad had two girls but we played sports and scrubbed toilets...haha. When he needed a fishing buddy one of us was there and we helped fix his boats, etc. Strangely he was also the one who cooked dinners in our house which mean a lot of spaghetti and pork and beans which is now a family joke. 

My family was fairly normal by all standards except that we did not have faith and instead were taught to believe in ourselves. There was zero religion which was confusing since we were raised in a small, Catholic town. Certainly where we come from shapes us somewhat.


----------



## AFEH

Ladies! A bit of decorum please or else you will be asked to leave the Club. Where's the steward. Stewaaaaard! Show them to the Ladies Lounge. My goodness gracious me, steward give them a spanking on the way out.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

We were a family of 7 children, boys and girls. Boys and girls scrubbed toilets. Boys and girls learned to fish etc.

Despite being Catholic, he was very liberal, even admitting to me through guilty eyes that he had doubts of his own.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Ladies! A bit of decorum please or else you will be asked to leave the Club. Where's the steward. Stewaaaaard! Show them to the Ladies Lounge. My goodness gracious me, steward give them a spanking on the way out.
> 
> Bob


I just laughed out loud!


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> We were a family of 7 children, boys and girls. Boys and girls scrubbed toilets. Boys and girls learned to fish etc.
> 
> Despite being Catholic, he was very liberal, even admitting to me through guilty eyes that he had doubts of his own.


Doubt is part of human nature. Try learning about religion as a teen/adult. All religions seem as unbelievable as the tooth fairy.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I just laughed out loud!


Magic, but I'm not available. I know it's a waste but there it is lol.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Magic, but I'm not available. I know it's a waste but there it is lol.
> 
> Bob


All the good ones are taken by something or other


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Awe, Bob....
We love you. I do love your insight and wisdom. I agree with you that generations have changed. Is this because of a mind shift per se or is it because of an economic shift. I don't know. Nearly everybody I know that is married works. I think perhaps the change might be because of that. It used to be Dad went off to work and Mom took care of everything else. Now, we all work so "the other stuff" gets split between two people. I really appreciate a man who splits the chores. My husband is fantastic in that regard. We are raising our sons to do this as well while maintaining their man status. We also taught them how to cook....well. Really well. Our eldest son made me pork tenderloin with a sour cherry red wine glaze, baby roasted potatoes and lemon butter grilled asparagus for my birthday. This was after he changed the oil in his car and re-hung a rain gutter. I do think people can be both.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> Doubt is part of human nature. Try learning about religion as a teen/adult. All religions seem as unbelievable as the tooth fairy.


My now 9yo looked at me one time all serious.. Mom. They are not real are they? Who, I asked. You know Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, God.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> My now 9yo looked at me one time all serious.. Mom. They are not real are they? Who, I asked. You know Santa, the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, God.


That is really cute!--and what did you say?


----------



## Mom6547

Cowardly. "What do you think?"


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Cowardly. "What do you think?"


I think you asked him to think. That's not cowardly that freeing.


----------



## AFEH

Now I know why men invented a little bag into which they put their balls, either a white or black one after they’d interviewed an applicant. Hence the term “Black Balled” came into being. And why those men got so frustrated by the idle chit chat of the women in the clubhouse and on the green.

Yep, it all started going very wrong once women where allowed onto the hallowed turf.

I am of course joking. I have to state that as some have taken me literally about women getting the vote etc. I never thought for one minute anyone would take me seriously with that, those guys died out long ago, didn’t they? Perhaps it’s an American/English thing, I can’t see many people taking me that seriously in England.

But think about it. There are a couple of women nattering here totally off topic and appear to be totally unaware that they are doing so. Have women in the States really encroached that deeply into the man’s world, so much so that they are totally unaware of it?

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Now I know why men invented a little bag into which they put their balls, either a white or black one after they’d interviewed an applicant. Hence the term “Black Balled” came into being. And why those men got so frustrated by the idle chit chat of the women in the clubhouse and on the green.
> 
> Yep, it all started going very wrong once women where allowed onto the hallowed turf.
> 
> I am of course joking. I have to state that as some have taken me literally about women getting the vote etc. I never thought for one minute anyone would take me seriously with that, those guys died out long ago, didn’t they? Perhaps it’s an American/English thing, I can’t see many people taking me that seriously in England.
> 
> But think about it. There are a couple of women nattering here totally off topic and appear to be totally unaware that they are doing so. Have women in the States really encroached that deeply into the man’s world, so much so that they are totally unaware of it?
> 
> Bob


Don't know about on the green or in the man's clubhouse as I've no desire to go there and be bored to death. I was blissfully unaware being off topic bothered you or I would have stopped the nattering. Men should learn to enjoy a good nattering.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Don't know about on the green or in the man's clubhouse as I've no desire to go there and be bored to death. I was blissfully unaware being off topic bothered you or I would have stopped the nattering. Men should learn to enjoy a good nattering.


I took a peek in the Ladies Lounge a while back and stumbled into shaving pubes with full descriptions. I soon got back out lol.

You still don’t seem very aware Trenton, like incognisant of it all. Unless of course you’re one very big tease lol.

The gender roles in my marriage were very well defined simply by default. I guess now we’d be called the “traditional gender role marriage” with a bit of progressivism thrown into the mix.

I can say one needs to be very careful with how sons are brought up. My two sons are very different to one another. My elder son is very much like me, masculine in the way he views the world and the way he behaves. My wife for some reason or another decided my younger son was going to be her emotional confident, that he was going to have curly hair as a kiddie, that is she treated him in the same way she would have treated a female, either a daughter or a friend. My younger sons outlook on the world and the way he behaves is not as masculine as my older son.

We do need to take care of how our sons are brought up in the world otherwise we’ll end up with a world of males who don’t truly know who they are and what they’re for.

She that rocks the cradle rules the world and all that. Women have immense influence, I'm just saying be very aware of what you're doing with it. Some don't even know the effects of the influence they have and that's a very dangerous situation.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> I took a peek in the Ladies Lounge a while back and stumbled into shaving pubes with full descriptions. I soon got back out lol.
> 
> You still don’t seem very aware Trenton, like incognisant of it all. Unless of course you’re one very big tease lol.
> 
> The gender roles in my marriage were very well defined simply by default. I guess now we’d be called the “traditional gender role marriage” with a bit of progressivism thrown into the mix.
> 
> I can say one needs to be very careful with how sons are brought up. My two sons are very different to one another. My elder son is very much like me, masculine in the way he views the world and the way he behaves. My wife for some reason or another decided my younger son was going to be her emotional confident, that he was going to have curly hair as a kiddie, that is she treated him in the same way she would have treated a female, either a daughter or a friend. My younger sons outlook on the world and the way he behaves is not as masculine as my older son.
> 
> We do need to take care of how our sons are brought up in the world otherwise we’ll end up with a world of males who don’t truly know who they are and what they’re for.
> 
> She that rocks the cradle rules the world and all that. Women have immense power, I'm just saying be very aware of what you're doing with it.
> 
> Bob


I am very genuine really. Maybe this comes off as unaware? Don't know. It might be every woman's problem or just mine. I have a compelling need to write exactly what I'm thinking at exactly that point. This drives even myself mad.

You think you can raise the son out of your son? I hope not. I'm a doting mother.


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> I can say one needs to be very careful with how sons are brought up. My two sons are very different to one another. My elder son is very much like me, masculine in the way he views the world and the way he behaves. My wife for some reason or another decided my younger son was going to be her emotional confident, that he was going to have curly hair as a kiddie, that is she treated him in the same way she would have treated a female, either a daughter or a friend. My younger sons outlook on the world and the way he behaves is not as masculine as my older son.


I find this thought process really interesting. (As an aside, making your child into your best friend/confidant is a BAD IDEA. But I will go on about parenting on some parenting forum somewhere and not waste your time here.)

I am trying to imagine the ways in which I treat my son and daughter differently. My son is not circed, so his hygiene needs to include special washing there. My daughter has different hygiene issues.

I don't really understand what it means to TREAT them according to gender. They do ACT differently some times. They have different interests. So if we expose both of them to a construction project, some of the projects are more interesting to him and some more interesting to her.





> We do need to take care of how our sons are brought up in the world otherwise we’ll end up with a world of males who don’t truly know who they are and what they’re for.


What are they for? 



> She that rocks the cradle rules the world and all that. Women have immense influence, I'm just saying be very aware of what you're doing with it. Some don't even know the effects of the influence they have and that's a very dangerous situation.
> 
> Bob


Believe it or not, I am not trying to be argumentative. I don't understand what you mean!


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I am very genuine really. Maybe this comes off as unaware? Don't know. It might be every woman's problem or just mine. I have a compelling need to write exactly what I'm thinking at exactly that point. This drives even myself mad.
> 
> You think you can raise the son out of your son? I hope not. I'm a doting mother.


The biggest thing I can do for my son is accept him for who is. I really want him to know that so he can open up to me and confide in me. Like two buddies. I actually believe that is now possible now I am no longer with his mother.

But he still has a massive emotional tie to her, neither have even wanted to cut the emotional umbilical cord let alone try and do it, but I have a feeling that’s what my son is trying to do and I hope I somehow discover that. You’ve got to have witnessed this sort of stuff to really know what I mean.

I fear for my younger son, I really do. He’s in his mid 30s without a home or a penny to his name. I know what happens to those types of people when they’re looking at their 50s. They’ve built nothing and they’ve got nothing so despair, depression and suicidal thoughts set in. He does though have many female friends that have some form of adoration for him. He Is truly a “nice guy” and it’s the mothers that do that to men. It’s the hand that rocks the cradle.

Now I’ll be watching to see how, if indeed at all, he has changed to the point where he’ll have concrete dreams and plans for himself that don’t include his beloved mother. I’m kind of hoping he’s grown up a bit and is now going to go off into a world that doesn’t include his mother and see what he is truly capable of. He has an immense amount of talent as a teacher, an artist, sculpture, poet and lyricist but he just doesn’t apply it.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> I took a peek in the Ladies Lounge a while back and stumbled into shaving pubes with full descriptions. I soon got back out lol.
> 
> You still don’t seem very aware Trenton, like incognisant of it all. Unless of course you’re one very big tease lol.
> 
> The gender roles in my marriage were very well defined simply by default. I guess now we’d be called the “traditional gender role marriage” with a bit of progressivism thrown into the mix.
> 
> I can say one needs to be very careful with how sons are brought up. My two sons are very different to one another. My elder son is very much like me, masculine in the way he views the world and the way he behaves. My wife for some reason or another decided my younger son was going to be her emotional confident, that he was going to have curly hair as a kiddie, that is she treated him in the same way she would have treated a female, either a daughter or a friend. My younger sons outlook on the world and the way he behaves is not as masculine as my older son.
> 
> We do need to take care of how our sons are brought up in the world otherwise we’ll end up with a world of males who don’t truly know who they are and what they’re for.
> 
> She that rocks the cradle rules the world and all that. Women have immense influence, I'm just saying be very aware of what you're doing with it. Some don't even know the effects of the influence they have and that's a very dangerous situation.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

This forum stands as testament to that unfortunate outcome.

By, "this forum", I mean those poor souls that come in with their first post basically admitting how they've dug their own grave in their relationship, but don't have any idea what to do about it.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> The biggest thing I can do for my son is accept him for who is. I really want him to know that so he can open up to me and confide in me. Like two buddies. I actually believe that is now possible now I am no longer with his mother.
> 
> But he still has a massive emotional tie to her, neither have even wanted to cut the emotional umbilical cord let alone try and do it, but I have a feeling that’s what my son is trying to do and I hope I somehow discover that. You’ve got to have witnessed this sort of stuff to really know what I mean.
> 
> I fear for my younger son, I really do. He’s in his mid 30s without a home or a penny to his name. I know what happens to those types of people when they’re looking at their 50s. They’ve built nothing and they’ve got nothing so despair, depression and suicidal thoughts set in. He does though have many female friends that have some form of adoration for him. He Is truly a “nice guy” and it’s the mothers that do that to men. It’s the hand that rocks the cradle.
> 
> Now I’ll be watching to see how, if indeed at all, he has changed to the point where he’ll have concrete dreams and plans for himself that don’t include his beloved mother. I’m kind of hoping he’s grown up a bit and is now going to go off into a world that doesn’t include his mother and see what he is truly capable of. He has an immense amount of talent as a teacher, an artist, sculpture, poet and lyricist but he just doesn’t apply it.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

I could have written this.

My adopted son is that way also.

He will live with his mother her entire life.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Believe it or not, I am not trying to be argumentative. I don't understand what you mean!


A person’s character made up of their core values and beliefs and the subsequent behaviour those two quite literally dictate for the rest of their life are almost fully formed by the time a child is seven or eight, in their “infancy”. What we learn by that age become our “traits”. Unlike attitudes, traits are exceptionally difficult to change even if we want to. In computer terms it’s hardwired behaviour, it can’t be changed, reprogrammed.

Blessings on the hand of women! 
Angels guard its strength and grace, 
In the palace, cottage, hovel, 
Oh, no matter where the place; 
Would that never storms assailed it, 
Rainbows ever gently curled; 
For the hand that rocks the cradle 
Is the hand that rules the world. 

Infancy's the tender fountain, 
Power may with beauty flow, 
Mother's first to guide the streamlets, 
From them souls unresting grow-- 
Grow on for the good or evil, 
Sunshine streamed or evil hurled; 
For the hand that rocks the cradle 
Is the hand that rules the world. 

Woman, how divine your mission 
Here upon our natal sod! 
Keep, oh, keep the young heart open 
Always to the breath of God! 
All true trophies of the ages 
Are from mother-love impearled; 
For the hand that rocks the cradle 
Is the hand that rules the world. 

Blessings on the hand of women! 
Fathers, sons, and daughters cry, 
And the sacred song is mingled 
With the worship in the sky-- 
Mingles where no tempest darkens, 
Rainbows evermore are hurled; 
For the hand that rocks the cradle 
Is the hand that rules the world.

William Ross Wallace



“The habits of the home in one generation become the morals of society in the next. As the old adage says: ‘The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.’”

“The full quote is "For the hand that rocks the cradle, is the hand that rules the world." It is from a poem by William Ross Wallace that celebrates Motherhood and the concept that what a person becomes in their life starts with what they learn from their mother and that ultimately, it is mothers that have the greatest influence on what we are or become”.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I could have written this.
> 
> My adopted son is that way also.
> 
> He will live with his mother her entire life.


Sad isn't it.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Don't know about on the green or in the man's clubhouse as I've no desire to go there and be bored to death. I was blissfully unaware being off topic bothered you or I would have stopped the nattering. Men should learn to enjoy a good nattering.


Bored to death? This is the sort of thing men talk about when we have our philosophical hat on and women aren't around. It ain't all about football, soccer, boobs and butts. Well not all. 

And yet here you are! Bored to death lol.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Bob, why didn't you answer me? WHAT is a boy supposed to be? Aside from a bunch of anti-female vitriole. Is that really all this is about? You being bitter about women? Do you know that not all women (or men for that matter) are retarded parents?

I think I am going back to feeling sad for you.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What are they for?


Men? Maybe we'll find that out when the thread comes to an end but no way we're all going to agree.

But I'm surprised you don't have your own definition. You probably do as you come across as a deep thinking woman. But you’re just not going to declare it, right? I always thought women had lists and it was the men who just “fell in love” no matter what.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Bob, why didn't you answer me? WHAT is a boy supposed to be? Aside from a bunch of anti-female vitriole. Is that really all this is about? You being bitter about women? Do you know that not all women (or men for that matter) are retarded parents?
> 
> I think I am going back to feeling sad for you.


You're so impatient, and you change your attitude at a whim, very unstable that. I do have other things going on. You were doing well but you've become clouded again by your bitterness and resentment and it shines through.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Men? Maybe we'll find that out when the thread comes to an end but no way we're all going to agree.
> 
> But I'm surprised you don't have your own definition. You probably do as you come across as a deep thinking woman. But you’re just not going to declare it, right? I always thought women had lists and it was the men who just “fell in love” no matter what.
> 
> Bob


I was interested in YOUR definition. I actually DON'T have a definition. 

I am the one who doesn't believe in gender roles, remember?


----------



## Conrad

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I was interested in YOUR definition. I actually DON'T have a definition.
> 
> I am the one who doesn't believe in gender roles, remember?


What do you believe in?


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I was interested in YOUR definition. I actually DON'T have a definition.
> 
> I am the one who doesn't believe in gender roles, remember?


Ah you’ll be a feminist fundamentalist then? If that's the case then you'll see me as your enemy lol.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Ah you’ll be a feminist fundamentalist then? If that's the case then you'll see me as your enemy lol.
> 
> Bob


I am not a feminist at all.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I am not a feminist at all.


Well you've just done my head in lol. You don't believe in gender roles ...... and you're not a fundamental feminist or a feminist at all? Is it really that far gone in the States?

This is 2nd or 3rd generation stuff.

“The habits of the home in one generation become the morals of society in the next. As the old adage says: ‘The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.’”

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> What do you believe in?


I will try. I see you are not willing to do the same... But here goes...


We are talking about gender roles not a dissertation on my entire belief system. 

Men and women have physical differences that may, at varying times, obviate different jobs or roles. Women are never going to be able to impregnate and men are never going to be able to carry, deliver and nurse babies for instance.

Back when we lived in nature as other animals do, these physical differences may have obviated other roles. A man's physical strength would have made him suitable for hunting the big game, for instance. Women might have been better for gathering, staying near whatever the domicile was. Tasks that allowed her to care for the young-uns. Also the strength of men may have determined the mating pecking order, with the strongest males achieving pick of the women as is the case with many other animals. This would have been good for the survival of the species.

As time moves on, we have adopted civilization and technology. Many of the roles based on physical attributes are no longer necessary but have been codified by religion (thank you Saint Paul. Many a woman has suffered due to your misogynistic writings) and by social convention. But these roles are no longer necessary. The serve no PURPOSE anymore.

Women CAN be successful CEOs. One of the best stay-at-home parents in my community is a big, strapping Dad. Men can cook, can pursue dance, can join the military, work in technology. Anything that they want. And this is a GOOD thing. Gay men can pursue careers in fashion! Or interior design! Women can pursue law, sculpture, dance, technology, domestic duties or child care.

I think people should pursue their own best attributes according to THEIR talent and interest. I believe that people's value comes from using their natural abilities with character and integrity, whatever those abilities may be.

As it relates to your wife making a child out of her grown son, that is another matter. I think that PARENTING by both mothers AND fathers is at a crisis of screwed-up-ness in the USA. (Can't speak to anywhere else since I don't live anywhere else.)

I think that we have developed a selfish, entitlement society. Parents nowadays seek to see how their children can serve THEM, as with your wife making a best buddy out of her son. We OWE our children an upbringing of both unconditional love and sensible discipline and learning. Our children do not desrve to be saddled with our problems. At the same time, they DO deserve to learn that they are responsible for their actions and the consequences therein. They do deserve to learn the physical, emotional skills necessary to live healthy lives.

And we sure owe them a hell of a lot more than stuffing the small kids into boxes while we go pursue our dreaaaammmmsss. 

I am not saying that no one is successful at pursuing 2-income households. But I am saying that focus needs to be put on the upbringing of the children rather than seeing children as an offshoot of pursuing one's own happiness. 

That is a start.


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> Well you've just done my head in lol. You don't believe in gender roles ...... and you're not a fundamental feminist or a feminist at all? Is it really that far gone in the States?
> 
> This is 2nd or 3rd generation stuff.
> 
> “The habits of the home in one generation become the morals of society in the next. As the old adage says: ‘The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.’”
> 
> Bob


Well if you start to see pigeon, feel free to stick me in a hole. I am a pragmatist. Read my other post and perhaps it will become clear. For my tastes, feminism has gone so far afield as to leave an ashy taste in my mouth. Nowadays feminists would have you believe all the nonsense that old school sexists would have you believe about women... only about men. Where is that right?


----------



## Conrad

>>I will try. I see you are not willing to do the same... But here goes...<<

Your thoughtful post would be admired without the snark.

I'm wondering why it's there - and for what purpose?


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I will try. I see you are not willing to do the same... But here goes...
> 
> 
> We are talking about gender roles not a dissertation on my entire belief system.
> 
> Men and women have physical differences that may, at varying times, obviate different jobs or roles. Women are never going to be able to impregnate and men are never going to be able to carry, deliver and nurse babies for instance.
> 
> Back when we lived in nature as other animals do, these physical differences may have obviated other roles. A man's physical strength would have made him suitable for hunting the big game, for instance. Women might have been better for gathering, staying near whatever the domicile was. Tasks that allowed her to care for the young-uns. Also the strength of men may have determined the mating pecking order, with the strongest males achieving pick of the women as is the case with many other animals. This would have been good for the survival of the species.
> 
> As time moves on, we have adopted civilization and technology. Many of the roles based on physical attributes are no longer necessary but have been codified by religion (thank you Saint Paul. Many a woman has suffered due to your misogynistic writings) and by social convention. But these roles are no longer necessary. The serve no PURPOSE anymore.
> 
> Women CAN be successful CEOs. One of the best stay-at-home parents in my community is a big, strapping Dad. Men can cook, can pursue dance, can join the military, work in technology. Anything that they want. And this is a GOOD thing. Gay men can pursue careers in fashion! Or interior design! Women can pursue law, sculpture, dance, technology, domestic duties or child care.
> 
> I think people should pursue their own best attributes according to THEIR talent and interest. I believe that people's value comes from using their natural abilities with character and integrity, whatever those abilities may be.
> 
> As it relates to your wife making a child out of her grown son, that is another matter. I think that PARENTING by both mothers AND fathers is at a crisis of screwed-up-ness in the USA. (Can't speak to anywhere else since I don't live anywhere else.)
> 
> I think that we have developed a selfish, entitlement society. Parents nowadays seek to see how their children can serve THEM, as with your wife making a best buddy out of her son. We OWE our children an upbringing of both unconditional love and sensible discipline and learning. Our children do not desrve to be saddled with our problems. At the same time, they DO deserve to learn that they are responsible for their actions and the consequences therein. They do deserve to learn the physical, emotional skills necessary to live healthy lives.
> 
> And we sure owe them a hell of a lot more than stuffing the small kids into boxes while we go pursue our dreaaaammmmsss.
> 
> I am not saying that no one is successful at pursuing 2-income households. But I am saying that focus needs to be put on the upbringing of the children rather than seeing children as an offshoot of pursuing one's own happiness.
> 
> That is a start.


Well said VT. There's a lot of depth there.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> >>I will try. I see you are not willing to do the same... But here goes...<<
> 
> Your thoughtful post would be admired without the snark.
> 
> I'm wondering why it's there - and for what purpose?


Conrad I thought that but chose to ignore it because what followed was absolutley fabulous. But it is indeed a good and valid question and maybe very helpful for VT.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> >>I will try. I see you are not willing to do the same... But here goes...<<
> 
> Your thoughtful post would be admired without the snark.
> 
> I'm wondering why it's there - and for what purpose?


I wasn't trying to be snarky! (Trust that you are not the only one to read my tone that way.) I was trying to poke you into answering my question because I AM curious. What are men/boys supposed to be that you feel that their upbringing by their mothers is not allowing them to achieve?


----------



## Conrad

In the case of my son? Independence. Leadership. Agency. Vision. and Courage


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I wasn't trying to be snarky! (Trust that you are not the only one to read my tone that way.) I was trying to poke you into answering my question because I AM curious. What are men/boys supposed to be that you feel that their upbringing by their mothers is not allowing them to achieve?


I had one goal for my sons VT. Emotional and financial independence by the time they were 18. That’s the one major goal I had for them. That’s how I was brought up. I was naïve in that goal, independence doesn’t come that easy. My eldest son more or less made it at 18 with a little help from his mother while at Uni and me a few years later. My youngest son? I have work to do there.

Bless you VT you have done and are doing truly really very well.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

bob,

I feel like my son and your youngest have much in common.


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> I had one goal for my sons VT. Emotional and financial independence by the time they were 18. That’s the one major goal I had for them. That’s how I was brought up. I was naïve in that goal, independence doesn’t come that easy. My eldest son more or less made it at 18 with a little help from his mother while at Uni and me a few years later. My youngest son? I have work to do there.
> 
> Bless you VT you have done and are doing truly really very well.
> 
> Bob


I am curious if you have any daughters? Do you wish something different for them? Or do you imagine you would wish something different for them if you had them?


----------



## Trenton

vthome I too agree with your well thought out post. It's exactly how I feel as well.


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> In the case of my son? Independence. Leadership. Agency. Vision. and Courage


That is a curious list. independence I can see as something you can teach and instill. And a derned good skill to have. But I would think that leadership is an inborn trait, difficult to teach. What would you do/ have you done if your son doesn't demonstrate that natural ability? 

I find agency a strange value to want to instill. Thanks for that, though, I had to look it up to find out precisely what you mean! I am guessing you mean this definition

the state of being in action or exerting power

Over what do you hope they exert power? Clearly themselves. That might be the natural companion trait to courage and confidence? 

Vision is another one I don't quite understand. What do you hope he sees?

I love talking about raising kids!


----------



## nice777guy

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I wasn't trying to be snarky! (Trust that you are not the only one to read my tone that way.)


You can add me to the list of those reading your tone as "snarky."

One of the reasons that I continue coming to this board is that I enjoy the conversations. I enjoy hearing differing opinions.

On a previous thread you nearly drove me insane by refusing to admit that there are "general" differences between genders. Then that thread became ugly and I just let it go.

When I first came to this board, I might have written something similar to your thoughtful post above, but without the snarky comment. I have two daughters, and part of me would LOVE to believe, for their sake, that physical differences are all that separate men from women, but it just isn't true.

I came here with problems - and with an open mind - looking for answers. My agenda was clear from the start. I wanted to know what to do to save my marriage. I'm not ready to write a book about my success story just yet - but my relationship with my wife is much better now than it was 6 months or a year ago. And a lot of that has to do with things that I learned from this board.

Although I welcome your opinions schoolmom - I don't understand why someone who is so sure that they are right and everyone else wrong comes to a discussion forum in the first place.

I think I "get" where you are coming from, but I don't feel like you are taking the time to try to understand the people who respond to you.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I am curious if you have any daughters? Do you wish something different for them? Or do you imagine you would wish something different for them if you had them?


No daughters VT. I know I would have behaved very differently with a daughter but I think my goal for her would have been the same, independence.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> On a previous thread you nearly drove me insane by refusing to admit that there are "general" differences between genders. Then that thread became ugly and I just let it go.


I am sorry you have a hard time reading for comprehension. And yes, now I *am* intending to be snarly. Don't blame me if you can't read. 

I never said that there was not a basis in truth for gender generalizations. 

So you know, we aren't even talking about GENERALIZATIONS. Now we have moved on to gender ROLES. 

I suggest that if you don't like my manner of post, don't read my posts.




> Although I welcome your opinions schoolmom - I don't understand why someone who is so sure that they are right and everyone else wrong comes to a discussion forum in the first place.


Because as of yet no one has said anything to change my mind.



> I think I "get" where you are coming from, but I don't feel like you are taking the time to try to understand the people who respond to you.


You have the right to that feeling.


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> No daughters VT. I know I would have behaved very differently with a daughter but I think my goal for her would have been the same, independence.
> 
> Bob


Are you willing to elaborate how and/or why you would have behaved differently? Thanks


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Are you willing to elaborate how and/or why you would have behaved differently? Thanks


No. You're way too snarky for me VT.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Positively strange. It is ok for Nice to repeatedly criticize me for ... things I never said. Accuse me of being... confident as if that were a fault. But I make a comment to that effect, I am too snarky. 

Nice chatting with you!


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Positively strange. It is ok for Nice to repeatedly criticize me for ... things I never said. Accuse me of being... confident as if that were a fault. But I make a comment to that effect, I am too snarky.
> 
> Nice chatting with you!


Men have to Man-up and women have to Toy-up. The definition of Toy-up being that in order to be listened to by a man and be a woman they must be able to keep looking at you as a woman so you must be coy and sweet if you are going to also be confident and bold. Basically, you have to be willing to be their toy or they have no reason to associate and converse. Sigh.

I like the word snarky though. I imagine Bob with a sexy British accent so I forgive him. Niceguy has a yellow Dyson vaccuum and an accounting ledger so I forgive him. Conrad I just see as bitter so far, waiting for some interesting characteristics to pop up.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Okay, this is getting a little ridiculous. I don't think that NG was attacking you in any way VT Mom. Perhaps I read that wrong but he seems really genuine. We are ALL here for one purpose and one purpose only: to try and make our marriage work. I appreciate insight from all, even if I don't agree with all of it. This is a forum after all of random people and their issues. I like this website. I like this place. We ALL have our own personalities and style. Can we just agree to at least listen without criticism? I get enough of that at home. 
And yes, Bob to me is a younger Anthony Hopkins (fantastic!!), Niceguy is Matthew McConnehy (awesome!!), Conrad is Frasier Crane (brilliant and articulate!!). Deejo is Johnny Depp (hilarious and balanced) All that is left is BBW and Scannerguard. Not sure yet.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Okay, this is getting a little ridiculous. I don't think that NG was attacking you in any way VT Mom. Perhaps I read that wrong but he seems really genuine. We are ALL here for one purpose and one purpose only: to try and make our marriage work. I appreciate insight from all, even if I don't agree with all of it. This is a forum after all of random people and their issues. I like this website. I like this place. We ALL have our own personalities and style. Can we just agree to at least listen without criticism? I get enough of that at home.
> And yes, Bob to me is a younger Anthony Hopkins (fantastic!!), Niceguy is Matthew McConnehy (awesome!!), Conrad is Frasier Crane (brilliant and articulate!!). All that is left is BBW and Scannerguard. Not sure yet.


I agree Brennan 
Scannerguard's name reminds me of an anti-virus software overall but I picture him as Mr. Clean...a horny, in search of a bimbo...Mr. Clean. Which is cool because at least he knows what he wants.

BBW I picture as the Big Bad Wolf, he didn't leave much up for imagination. 

What I like most is that those that frequently post here seem genuine and I appreciate that above and below disagreements.

We're all pretty much awesome in our non, half fledged or full fledged marriage crisis's. :smthumbup:


----------



## Trenton

Frasier Crane...really? Going to have to think about this.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton,
Conrad =Pharmacist = math, critical thinking, taking care of others = Frasier Crane = Awesome. 
Scanner is a CT dude = math, critical thinking = I am not sure. I used to think of him as Pierce Brosnan. Not the accent, as Scanner is from Jersey but the style of his posts.
BBW = Profession unknown = not known = ?? Regardless, his opinions matter to me. He presents a different style (for me) and I like it.


----------



## nice777guy

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Positively strange. It is ok for Nice to repeatedly criticize me for ... things I never said. Accuse me of being... confident as if that were a fault. But I make a comment to that effect, I am too snarky.
> 
> Nice chatting with you!


VT - Not sure if you are still around or not - actually hope you are. I've disagreed with you frequently - but only criticized you once that I can recall.

Trenton - no one has asked you or any other woman to "Toy Up". I've asked very similar questions (why are you here if you have such strong opinions and no problems) to both MEM and BBW.

And is it "Snarly" or "Snarky"?


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> VT - Not sure if you are still around or not - actually hope you are. I've disagreed with you frequently - but only criticized you once that I can recall.
> 
> Trenton - no one has asked you or any other woman to "Toy Up". I've asked very similar questions (why are you here if you have such strong opinions and no problems) to both MEM and BBW.
> 
> And is it "Snarly" or "Snarky"?


I didn't say you specifically asked me to toy up. I instead chose to generalize (heh) that men want women to toy up. Men and women classically are challenged by women who show confidence and strength of character. If vthome were a man her snarky attitude would be more acceptable. Conrad is hardly a delightful bowl of fruit but no one attacks him or refuses to converse with him. Before getting nasty with me in response for saying this, go back and re-read vthome and Conrad interactions in the "Crackin' Up" thread, he is putting short, un-related negative comments directed at her and then everyone accuses her of being snarky.

I have problems unlike mem and bbw and found this site when looking for marriage help out of frustration that my husband worked too often. I'm often frustrated, doubt my marriage and think about divorce from time to time. The last few days were bad ones for me although we talked about it last night and things are better, I know it's a temp fix. Reading the thoughts and advice of others has really helped me become a better communicator and I think appreciate my husband in a new light as well as see that he must feel a lot of pressure being the sole supporter of our family of five. This was a revelation for me. Well, enough about me...


----------



## nice777guy

Yeah - the Crackin Up thread was the one where I was frustrated, but wasn't taking it personally. By the time Amp came in and told people (Conrad and VT) to tone it down, it had become a pi$$ing match and was no longer very interesting at that point.

If you want to learn about men, this is a good place to read. I'm still amazed at the openness and depth of some of the discussions that have taken place here over the last month or two.

Oh - and my Dyson is a bluish purple - not yellow!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

NG,
Amazed in a good way?
For me, I often wonder if things I post will come back to haunt me.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> NG,
> Amazed in a good way?
> For me, I often wonder if things I post will come back to haunt me.


Yes - in a good way!

My wife (separated, but reconciling) knows I post and read on a marriage site, but letting her know my codename and the name of the site would be a bit much. Not sure what she would think if she ever found this site and read all of these posts.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

My husband read one post and that was the one that turned into Vikings and such. He laughed. I thought maybe that would segway in to him coming here but sadly, it did not.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> My husband read one post and that was the one that turned in Vikings and such. He laughed. I thought maybe that would segway in to him coming here but sadly, it did not.


So he knows about Dave from Accounting???

:rofl:

Probably not one of the more enlightening threads - but it was fun while it lasted!!!

Please tell him that we are truly capable of having real intellectual conversations that don't involve Vikings with pig tails! We are usually a very serious group here!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

See, I think that is what he is afraid of....the seriousness. Burying his head in the sand or laptop is easier. I asked him why he wouldn't come on a forum such as this and he said he didn't want to. He said opening up is hard for men. So I mentioned about all the men on this site and how they can open up. His response? They really are women posing as guys. wth?!

**Mind you, this guy was a chatterbox and visionary when we dated. He laid everything on the line. Never hid his feelings/thoughts. He's come a long way from that to the statement I just mentioned**


----------



## nice777guy

Opening up IS hard for men - especially with other men. That's what I meant earlier when I said I was "amazed" by some of these discussions.

In "real life" opening up to women seems to be a bit easier for some of us.

And I'm not a woman, but a 12 year old boy from India who likes to read the sex threads...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

What I cannot reconcile in my head is that it didn't used to be hard for him to open up at all. What happened? Me?


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> Okay, this is getting a little ridiculous. I don't think that NG was attacking you in any way VT Mom. Perhaps I read that wrong but he seems really genuine. We are ALL here for one purpose and one purpose only: to try and make our marriage work.


I was not feeling attacked. Yah I snarked at him. I am snarkalishiss like that. I do have a pet thing about repeatedly being told I am saying something other than what I am saying. Call me crazy. Is there an emotional need for that? Understanding?

For the record, I am not here to make my marriage work. I like discussions. I find marriage and parenting fascinating.


----------



## Deejo

I'm not a woman. But I do have magnificent breasts. 

This place is cathartic. My marriage is done. It was a tremendous help to me in reconciling and wading through months of very painful and confusing events. I don't stay to lament my marriage. I stay to learn, and to share, and of course to meet hot chicks ...


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> VT - Not sure if you are still around or not - actually hope you are. I've disagreed with you frequently - but only criticized you once that I can recall.


Feel free to criticize me! If I deserve it, I will own up. I hope. 




> Trenton - no one has asked you or any other woman to "Toy Up". I've asked very similar questions (why are you here if you have such strong opinions and no problems) to both MEM and BBW.
> 
> And is it "Snarly" or "Snarky"?


Snarky. I am not sure where this slang term came from. Depending on the usage is can mean ill humored or "A witty mannerism, personality, or behavior that is a combination of sarcasm and cynicism." But in most usages, I think it is about the same as the b word that will get asterisked out if I type it.

You and I have no quarrel that I know of. I am not going to agree to things I don't agree to, or "admit" things I don't agree to. And it sounds like you and I don't agree on things. Which is fine. As for thinking I am right, of course I think I am right. Or I would change my views! Who wants wrong views? You think you are right too. (For the record, when I took the which Lord of the Rings character test on Facebook, it said I was Elrond... And that I am rarely wrong... I mean, Facebook told me. It must be true! )


----------



## nice777guy

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I was not feeling attacked. Yah I snarked at him. I am snarkalishiss like that. I do have a pet thing about repeatedly being told I am saying something other than what I am saying. Call me crazy. Is there an emotional need for that? Understanding?
> 
> For the record, I am not here to make my marriage work. I like discussions. I find marriage and parenting fascinating.


If you weren't feeling attacked, then I guess I'm still acting too nice.



Brennan - I don't think most men need for their wives to change in order to clam up. I know I go through periods where I'm VERY antisocial - when I'd rather be alone than be around anyone. Then other times I find being around people can be a good thing. 

Going through this separation / EA stuff with my wife, I've bounced back and forth like a pinball. Kept it all in for a while - then started being very open - then clammed up again when I thought it was truly over. 

Even though things are better with us right now, I'm still very quiet about things - almost like I'm afraid I'm going to jinx things somehow.

Are there other things that could have triggered a change? Job loss or changes at work? Pending layoffs? Financial issues? Death in the family?

But I guess what I'm really saying is that me - personally - I'll just go into emotional hibernation on my own from time to time with no real rhyme or reason that I've figured out.

But this board is a bit different. Its almost more like an online journal - with feedback. And the more open I am here, the better the feedback will be.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> What I cannot reconcile in my head is that it didn't used to be hard for him to open up at all. What happened? Me?


I hear you struggling with this. The tendency to blame oneself is always present. Yet, we cannot own the response of another.

There's a wise saying that we teach others how to treat us. That also means we are free to change our response to them and to watch what happens in return.

It's also true that life has likely ground him down a bit. It truly happens to us all.

What he likely needs is what's called "psychological air". He'll sense that if he thinks you know how he's feeling.


----------



## nice777guy

vthomeschoolmom said:


> As for thinking I am right, of course I think I am right. Or I would change my views! Who wants wrong views? You think you are right too.


It just seems that you are very black and white with your thinking. Either we agree or we disagree. You think you are right and others wrong. 

I just think its hard to open yourself to new ideas with that way of thinking. Especially with relationships (and parenting), there are few absolutes. Most of the answers are somewhere in between the extremes - in that grey area between the black and the white.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> It's also true that life has likely ground him down a bit. It truly happens to us all.


Almost typed that myself - but didn't want to seem like a downer.

How old are you (Brennan and Hubby)? Maybe he's just hit a bit of that mid-life crisis - disappointed now that he realizes he'll never be president, or a pro baseball player - those things that you dream about being when you are young and idealistic.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

A little background here: I really think that years of resentment has built up in both of us. I think maybe he shut down because of that. I don't know though. He also gave up on his hobbies. I did ask him about that and why he stopped and he said "kids". I probed further and the truth came out.....that "I got upset when he was gone". I really don't remember that. I do remember feeling totally neglected by him. The solution though is not to give up on your hobbies and then sit around at home continuing to ignore your partner! Now his hobby is a laptop. I guess he feels being home makes him husband of the year. 

He is 39. Turning 40 in a few months. Don't think it is MLC. I think he is worn down (probably by me) but doesn't voice that. Instead he ignores and I become a task to be dealt with. It sucks.


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> It just seems that you are very black and white with your thinking. Either we agree or we disagree. You think you are right and others wrong.


I don't know what "black and white" thinking is or what the converse type of thinking would be.

I *do* believe in objective truth. And if something is true, it is likely demonstrable. If I don't agree with something, it is because I don't feel it has been demonstrated.



> I just think its hard to open yourself to new ideas with that way of thinking.


Tee hee. I disagree! Honestly, the only thing that makes me change my view is going to be an argument (think logical progression not fight) that convinces me of that truth. 


> Especially with relationships (and parenting), there are few absolutes.


Well, for one I didn't use any absolutes. But the reality with both parenting and marriage is that the proof is in the pudding.



> Most of the answers are somewhere in between the extremes - in that grey area between the black and the white.


[/quote]
You kind of just spoke in code. As a pragmatist, I confess it is hard for me to glean precisely what you MEAN by this post.


----------



## Mom6547

Brannan, have you guys done the stuff over at marriage builders? It sounds like neither of you are getting your needs met. I wonder... and this may well not be the answer you are looking for, if you put your focus and attention on HIS needs, might it engender reciprocity in him? Damned hard to do when you are already embroiled in a feeling of rejection, bitterness, and resentment.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> A little background here: I really think that years of resentment has built up in both of us. I think maybe he shut down because of that. I don't know though. He also gave up on his hobbies. I did ask him about that and why he stopped and he said "kids". I probed further and the truth came out.....that "I got upset when he was gone". I really don't remember that. I do remember feeling totally neglected by him. The solution though is not to give up on your hobbies and then sit around at home continuing to ignore your partner! Now his hobby is a laptop. I guess he feels being home makes him husband of the year.
> 
> He is 39. Turning 40 in a few months. Don't think it is MLC. I think he is worn down (probably by me) but doesn't voice that. Instead he ignores and I become a task to be dealt with. It sucks.


Playmate/companion

Many times, this is what's missing.

Did you two like to do something together other than go out to eat at restaurants?

Something that's been let slide?

Does he like motorcycles?


----------



## Trenton

Brennan get him on here and let us whip him into the man he wants to be but forgot how to be.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Ha ha Trenton. Tie him to a chair with a gun pointed at him?

No, we don't go out anymore Conrad. Last "date" was over a year ago. 

VTMom, that is great advice but very hard to execute. How do I do this?


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Ha ha Trenton. Tie him to a chair with a gun pointed at him?
> 
> No, we don't go out anymore Conrad. Last "date" was over a year ago.
> 
> VTMom, that is great advice but very hard to execute. How do I do this?


Is something stopping you from going out now?

Is there some area he was formerly interested in that you could suddenly "become" interested in?


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Ha ha Trenton. Tie him to a chair with a gun pointed at him?
> 
> No, we don't go out anymore Conrad. Last "date" was over a year ago.
> 
> VTMom, that is great advice but very hard to execute. How do I do this?


Seriously, try it. It will create some type of spark.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Is something stopping you from going out now?
> 
> Is there some area he was formerly interested in that you could suddenly "become" interested in?


One of the first things I did when my wife moved into her apartment was dig my old bass guitar amp out of the garage and move the bass into the living room next to the computer where all my music is.

And now - after 10 years of 'thinking about it' - I signed up for a Judo class. I come home with bruises all over my arms - my arm was hurting last night and kept waking me up - and I LOVE IT. Its challenging. Its manly. And the psychological aspect of finally doing something that I'd threatened to do for years is immeasurable.

But - it took my wife nearly leaving me to light the fire under my butt and make those changes. Like you said about your hubby - I thought I was being "good" by just being at home and agreeing to put my guitar and amp away because I'm a "grown-up" now - and they didn't fit the decor.

I thought I was making her happy but I found out the hard way that I was wrong.

I just don't know an easy way to force someone who is *comfortably unhappy *into making positive changes.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad,
Now we are in almost a punishment phase if you will. He knows I want to go out with him. He says "next week" and then next week roles around and it doesn't happen. Passive aggressive BS crap is what it is. The ignoring me part is also passive aggressive. He knows it hurts me and I think that is the point. This behvior didn't just happen over night. It is 17 years in the making of him feeling slighted, belittled and hurt. My resentment is 17 years in the making of being his lowest priority, constantly let down and totally ignored. So I would yell and say awful things to him. He essentially removed me from his life in turn. Hence the "death spiral" that Deejo talks about. Vicious vicious cycle. I don't know how to break it.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> Now we are in almost a punishment phase if you will. He knows I want to go out with him. He says "next week" and then next week roles around and it doesn't happen. Passive aggressive BS crap is what it is. The ignoring me part is also passive aggressive. He knows it hurts me and I think that is the point. This behvior didn't just happen over night. It is 17 years in the making of him feeling slighted, belittled and hurt. My resentment is 17 years in the making of being his lowest priority, constantly let down and totally ignored. So I would yell and say awful things to him. He essentially removed me from his life in turn. Hence the "death spiral" that Deejo talks about. Vicious vicious cycle. I don't know how to break it.


I apologize if you've answered this before.

Do you empathize with him?

Seriously, do you seek the feeling in his words and reflect it back to him?


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> Now we are in almost a punishment phase if you will. He knows I want to go out with him. He says "next week" and then next week roles around and it doesn't happen. Passive aggressive BS crap is what it is. The ignoring me part is also passive aggressive. He knows it hurts me and I think that is the point. This behvior didn't just happen over night. It is 17 years in the making of him feeling slighted, belittled and hurt. My resentment is 17 years in the making of being his lowest priority, constantly let down and totally ignored. So I would yell and say awful things to him. He essentially removed me from his life in turn. Hence the "death spiral" that Deejo talks about. Vicious vicious cycle. I don't know how to break it.


So - do you want it to work out or not?

If you do - set something up that you can do with or without him - but preferrably together. Invite him, but don't let it stop you if he backs out.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Let me tell you....I could write a LONG article about the issues in our marriage and it wouldn't start out with "Dear Penthouse Forum". It's way nastier.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad,
I need to empathize more. Right now, his words are just words. Listening makes for a difficult situation. Deejo also mentioned this. I need action. You can't tell me you love me as you twist the knife in my back at the same time. 

NG,
Yes, I want to work it out. I do think you correct about a hobby. I used to fence. It was awesome. Maybe I should start that again.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> One of the first things I did when my wife moved into her apartment was dig my old bass guitar amp out of the garage and move the bass into the living room next to the computer where all my music is.
> 
> And now - after 10 years of 'thinking about it' - I signed up for a Judo class. I come home with bruises all over my arms - my arm was hurting last night and kept waking me up - and I LOVE IT. Its challenging. Its manly. And the psychological aspect of finally doing something that I'd threatened to do for years is immeasurable.
> 
> But - it took my wife nearly leaving me to light the fire under my butt and make those changes. Like you said about your hubby - I thought I was being "good" by just being at home and agreeing to put my guitar and amp away because I'm a "grown-up" now - and they didn't fit the decor.
> 
> I thought I was making her happy but I found out the hard way that I was wrong.
> 
> I just don't know an easy way to force someone who is *comfortably unhappy *into making positive changes.


That is truly the right word, "comfortably unhappy"

Exactly how I was feeling prior to my daughter's suicide attempt.

Our partners became attracted to us because of who we WERE. The changes we make to accommodate and "not make her mad" turn us into the lifeless needy wimps they then despise. You may make those changes in response to nagging. It may be "for the kids". We're taught that men sacrifice for the greater good. Yet, sacrificing too much of ourselves puts the entire picture at risk.

Moderation in all things.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> I need to empathize more. Right now, his words are just words. Listening makes for a difficult situation. Deejo also mentioned this. I need action. You can't tell me you love me as you twist the knife in my back at the same time.
> 
> NG,
> Yes, I want to work it out. I do think you correct about a hobby. I used to fence. It was awesome. Maybe I should start that again.


Did he ever fence? I guess I'm thinking about something that could possibly bring you together. Like booking a weekend at a bed and breakfast - or just getting a sitter for dinner one night. If he cancels, you go to the BNB yourself and enjoy some alone time - or go to a bookstore instead of dinner (if you don't like to eat alone).

Fencing would be good for you - which could ultimately help the two of you - just not so sure.

I was at a point where i really didn't WANT to do anything with my wife. I finally did enough on my own that it scared her a bit and SHE started to lean in closer again.

Or maybe I've got it all wrong...you keep mentioning all of this "resentment"...

:scratchhead:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

NG,
He didn't fence. The resentment I mention causes him to not want to do anything with me or go anywhere with me. Many of you said some great advice...in essence, fake it until you make it. Is that the key? Play nice to him so he feels it's safe to poke his head back out? Again, he is passive aggressive and also a massive conflict avoider. Fight or flight response is flee, leaving me and the kids in the dust. Should I give him some "warm fuzzies", make is safer? It's hard to do when deep down I feel that's what he should have doing all along for me. Grrrr.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan,

I hate to do this.

When I was at the therapist by myself (yes, I'm telling you something from my autobiography), I said something very similar.

She looked at me directly and said, "Do you want it to work"?

I'll ask you the same thing.

I imagine you have some very compassionate parts of your personality. If you can get to them and use them in this pursuit, your chance for positive results improve greatly.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad,
Yes, I want it to work.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> Ha ha Trenton. Tie him to a chair with a gun pointed at him?
> 
> No, we don't go out anymore Conrad. Last "date" was over a year ago.
> 
> VTMom, that is great advice but very hard to execute. How do I do this?


Go over to marriagebuilders.com. Read about emotional needs, love bank and love busters. There are a bunch of quizzes and worksheets. If you do the emotional needs questionnaire, and he does too, you both can know better what you are aiming at.

Example in my life. My husband's love language is touch. He feels loved by drive by touches, hugs, squeezes. I have to FORCE myself to do this since it feels weird to me.

As it relates to work, I finally just decided to believe that, instead of him choosing work over me, that he was demonstrating excellent work ethic and providing for the family...I guess I decided to let him need to work... If that makes any sense. What wound up happening, was that the increased freedom from stress resulted in a willingness to try harder when I mentioned something was a REAL priority...


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> Yes, I want it to work.


Then doing your best to set aside resentment and reflect back observations on his body language.

Stephen Covey calls it "listening with your eyes"


----------



## Scannerguard

Okay, a little bird in my ear told me this thread became about me (for a little while)

I really stopped reading around page 3.

I was just kidding on the Women Can't Mow the Lawn thing. Wow. . .I can't beleive you women had a tissy on that. Of course some women can mow the lawn well. . .just not as well as me 

How can they be expected to understand complicted gas/oil mixtures, spark plugs, and blade sharpenings? I don't expect to understand the difference between a softboiled egg and a poached egg.

I think you women need to stop hanging out in the Men's Clubhouse and just need to all take a hot bubble bath and paint your toenails and you'll all feel better. Someone draw Trenton's and Vthomeschoolmom's bath water please. . .

Yes, Me Neandethal.

You cavewoman.

Hands off the mower. And the garage is my territory too. And the basement. I know this because I peeed on it to mark it.

And if you mount a challenge to MY territory, I WILL beat my chest like an ape.


----------



## Scannerguard

Oh, BTW, I do shave my head so the Mr. Clean analogy isn't that far off.

And I would like to date an uneducated woman one time (coming close) to see how we mix, how we get a long. I don't know. . .never dated a bimbo though. It may be fun. I mean, what the heck, right?

I don't have an earring (hoop or stud) though but I do look good in white.

And it's Dr. Clean please, I tell my patients.

I didn't go to 4 years of Mopping School to be called Mister.


----------



## Scannerguard

BTW, Vthomeschoolmom, Trenton, and maybe Brennan. . .

You take yourselves and your gender roles and the definition of them WAYYYYYYYY too seriously. You need to lighten up.

Heck, as Neanderthally as I am in my opinions, I don't take my Conservative viewpoint of division of labor as seriously as you take your liberal viewpoints.

I mean heck, I am newly divorced now. . .I'll be doing everything now to establish a "Bachelor Pad" for me and my 3 boys. . .cooking, cleaning, garage things, basement things, mowing lawns. 

And my years of being henpecked have readied me for this task.

I even saw my ex is getting better at mowing the lawn (doesnt' quite have the edging down but it looked pretty good the other day I have to say!).

I also have you know, being the Modern Man I am, that I am signing up for a cooking class too.

How about that?

I am hoping to meet a cute little Italian woman, oh about 35ish, divorced, who can cook there. I am sure the instructor will be pleased with me.

What could be more open and liberal than that? I am practically a male from Vermont, a virtual Phil Donahue or Alan Alda. You are casting me like some mafia dude from Jersey or something


----------



## Nekko

Scannerguard said:


> Yes, Me Neandethal.
> 
> You cavewoman.
> 
> Hands off the mower. And the garage is my territory too. And the basement. I know this because I peeed on it to mark it.
> 
> And if you mount a challenge to MY territory, I WILL beat my chest like an ape.


:rofl: Thanks. I needed that :smthumbup:


----------



## nice777guy

Very well said, Doctor Clean! 

Let us know if you get anywhere with that Bimbo!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Dr. Scanner,
I hope I don't come across as taking my gender role too seriously. Perhaps my opinions are different because I married a guy who doesn't take gender roles seriously. It's really blended. Part of me wishes it wasn't.

And forgive me good Dr. For some reason I thought you were from Jersey. I could have sworn when you said something about Michzz being from the West Coast that you said something about Jersey. Obviously I read that wrong. Never thought mafia though. Your writing is too good to be a "Vinny".


----------



## Scannerguard

I am originally from PA but I do live in Jersey now for 15 years.

I have been assimilated I suppose.

PS: Anyone know why Greenpearl was banned? I don't get it - she always seemed very respectful. I would hope I would be warned if I am becoming too "trollish" in my posts.

I welcome moderators moderating the posts here.

I don't mean to incite people here. 

Look. . .I don't mind housework or doing it. But no matter how much I did do it (and I thought I did a good job actually - cleaning toilets and stuff), I think BBW was right - 

A. It was never good enough, quite up to her standard.
B. She eventually resented me doing it.

I suppose with mowing the lawn, I was the same. I would resent my woman mowing the lawn. She could plant flowers or do any other lawn work (except hauling landscape rock - too hard on delicate hands). . .but mowing lawns. . .I mean jeez. . .this is small machinery. A woman can't be expected to know the basics of a small combustion engine.

Ahd a woman shouldn't smell like a 2:1 gas oil mix.

She should smell like flowers and vanilla.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I don't know about GP. I too fear that sometimes I come off as trollish here, which is NOT my intention.

Flowers and vanilla, huh? I always thought it was fresh baked cookies and pumpkin pie.


----------



## Mom6547

One problem I have with being perceived as a troll is that I ENJOY conversations of this type. Similar to my Mom and brother having an argument last weekend. My brother left thinking he had angered my Mom. She was flabbergasted! She had had a blast! Hearing challenging points of view are FUN. Discussing different attitudes, thoughts, reasonings, points-of-view are FUN. But people wind up thinking I am upset or super uptight or something and wind up labeled troll, though I have never gotten booted from anywhere.

Differing points of view being what they are, I thought gp was a simpering suck up. But that doesn't strike me as a good reason to get banned.

But Scannerguard, I don't have any problem with YOU wanting a vanilla scented woman. I prefer cinnamon, myself.


----------



## Scannerguard

Okay, I am worried the women here ganged up on her or something. 

She's not a suck-up! 

You women could learn a thing or two from her. She reminds me of a woman I had a deep, DEEP crush on in college and recently had insight with years later.

She was from the South (texas) and knew exactly, EXACTLY how to emotionally entangle me. Women used to get so jealous of her because she knew how to get her meat hooks into men with exacting precision but honestly, I never got physical with her and was emotionally entangled with her for years.

I emailed her years later (right after I separated) and told her, "I guess you knew I was head over heels in love with you, right?" and she said (and I had to laugh in nostalgia):

"Oh my! I could have never presumed your affections, Scannerguard."

This was a girl (woman now) who used to come around my lifeguard chair and bat her eyelashes at me.

Whoever banned Greenpearl made a mistake. There are qualities in Greenpearl that men find attractive, and wives who are in trouble here could learn about those qualities and I don't mean the Big 2 - boobs and butt.

But. . .I have ridden the "ragged edge" on forums before. On a forum specific to my profession, I am pretty much the Forum Antagonist and I do definitely write my posts in a way to antagonize and needle you, esp. when I see someone getting in a tizzy.

So, I can tone it back. I don't want to be Forum Antagonist here.

But they put up with me and keep me around because I guess I say something interesting every once in awhile, like that guy who got fired from NPR for saying, "Every time he gets on a plane and sees a Muslim, I get scared."

The only crime that guy did was

A. Tell the truth
B. Say something interesting for discussion

But then again he was probably more fired for his affilation with Fox News, which is pretty much Conservative Entertainment and not investigative reporting.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Opening up IS hard for men - especially with other men. That's what I meant earlier when I said I was "amazed" by some of these discussions.
> 
> In "real life" opening up to women seems to be a bit easier for some of us.
> 
> And I'm not a woman, but a 12 year old boy from India who likes to read the sex threads...


I’d put that another way NG. Opening is hard for introverts. Opening up is easy for extroverts. Both are a “way of life”. The former internalises, the latter externalises. Introversion/extroversion is not gender based. The world needs both.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Okay, I am worried the women here ganged up on her or something.
> 
> She's not a suck-up!
> 
> You women could learn a thing or two from her. She reminds me of a woman I had a deep, DEEP crush on in college and recently had insight with years later.


No offense, but the idea of seeking to emulate someone on whom you had a crush is not a super motivator for me. I am getting the sense that you and I would not exactly be compatible! I would love to have a beer with you, though.



> She was from the South (texas) and knew exactly, EXACTLY how to emotionally entangle me.


Ew. Now I feel soiled. 



> Whoever banned Greenpearl made a mistake. There are qualities in Greenpearl that men find attractive, and wives who are in trouble here could learn about those qualities and I don't mean the Big 2 - boobs and butt.


SOME men! Geesh. We sure haven't gotten very far! 



> So, I can tone it back. I don't want to be Forum Antagonist here.


I, personally, find it fun to discuss in that vein. I recognize, though, that I am in the minority.



> But then again he was probably more fired for his affilation with Fox News, which is pretty much Conservative Entertainment and not investigative reporting.


Shock jockage.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> I’d put that another way NG. Opening is hard for introverts. Opening up is easy for extroverts. Both are a “way of life”. The former internalises, the latter externalises. Introversion/extroversion is not gender based. The world needs both.
> 
> Bob


Agree with most of it, but I DO think that women open up a bit more quickly with each other than men do.

I'm an introvert but I can enjoy sitting quietly in the corner listening to others. I just don't hear men openly discussing sex or relationship problems. Maybe impersonal things, like sports or politics. While women seem to be much more open with each other - and its seems they open up quicker than we do as well.

Maybe my perception is slanted by my wife being a pretty big extrovert.


----------



## Trenton

Scannerguard, text is a misleading interpretor. I'm not a very serious person in real life. A strange fidget really but I, like vthome, really enjoy the conversations here. Maybe you take me too seriously but that would be on you Dr. C.

As you know I'm from Jersey as well...how many Snooki costumes do you think there will be this year? 

I would never gang up on anyone with anyone else intentionally including Green Pearl. I was wondering why she was banned myself. Either way, my opinions and thoughts stand alone. I found Green Pearl to be a weird woman and I didn't believe her stick. She was all about bowing to the men which is why you liked her perhaps. I wouldn't want to learn anything from her as I wouldn't want to date a guy who wanted me to be like her.

If you want a bimbo or want to date an uneducated women all the more power to you. I only offer my opinion. I don't care if some of the men here want to date animals, bimbos or classy women. It's not my life. Just enjoying some interaction in-between school Halloween parades and party preparation. I am not being Snooki though I'm going as Snow White but an educated, opinionated one


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I *do* believe in objective truth. And if something is true, it is likely demonstrable. If I don't agree with something, it is because I don't feel it has been demonstrated.



VT, maybe think on this, your objective truth is subjective.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Whoa Scanner! I didn't see women gang up on her. I liked her and I defended her. 
We all have different points of view. I didn't always agree with hers or others but I doubt there is a group of women on this forum with pitchforks that bombarded Swedish, Mommy22 or Amplexor with requests to ban her because of differing viewpoints. You never know what might have gone on behind the scenes. PM's and such. I am certain the mods/Chris have access to that too. 
The finger pointing is not appreciated.


----------



## Trenton

I just typed...wanted to date an uneducated women...funny!


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> VT, maybe think on this, your objective truth is subjective.
> 
> Bob


Bob, if you have a point, I sure wish you would make it. You are about as direct as the river near my house. Playing Old Mr. Sage or something? There was a guy on another group who used to say "Seek truth within, grasshopper" every time he had nothing actually useful to say. Weird.

Someone's interpretation or attempted understanding of objective truth is always going to be subjective. The truth is still objectively out there waiting to be learned.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> Whoa Scanner! I didn't see women gang up on her. I liked her and I defended her.
> We all have different points of view. I didn't always agree with hers or others but I doubt there is a group of women on this forum with pitchforks that bombarded Swedish, Mommy22 or Amplexor with requests to ban her because of differing viewpoints. You never know what might have gone on behind the scenes. PM's and such. I am certain the mods/Chris have access to that too.
> The finger pointing is not appreciated.


Seems to me if anyone ganged up on someone THEY would get banned, not the one getting ganged up on.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Whoa Scanner! I didn't see women gang up on her. I liked her and I defended her.
> We all have different points of view. I didn't always agree with hers or others but I doubt there is a group of women on this forum with pitchforks that bombarded Swedish, Mommy22 or Amplexor with requests to ban her because of differing viewpoints. You never know what might have gone on behind the scenes. PM's and such. I am certain the mods/Chris have access to that too.
> The finger pointing is not appreciated.


*puts pitchfork away and whistles* 
No, no of course not.


----------



## nice777guy

Greenpearl almost seemed a bit too good to be true in some ways. Not surprised her stay was very short lived.

I'm not sure that she was "trolling" - but I think that a woman who comes to a marriage forum and brags about how perfect they are and how much they love sex is likely to get some private attention.

I kind of expected her to get called out on this at one point during one of our discussions about a "need" for friends of the opposite sex. She was going on and on about how she felt a need to talk to men, and that her husband had approved of her coming to this board to meet that need.

I kept expecting SOMEONE to pop up and challenge the need for a woman who is SOOO happily married to need to talk to other men so badly.

In other words - I think she had a need for male attention, knew this was a good place to find it, and likely got some thrown her way privately.

Don't get me wrong - we all enjoy that type of attention - but if I start spending most of my time discussing my Greatness in the Women's Lounge, I'm guessing my days would be numbered...

This is all theory - I know nothing of the truth.


----------



## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> One of the first things I did when my wife moved into her apartment was dig my old bass guitar amp out of the garage and move the bass into the living room next to the computer where all my music is.
> 
> And now - after 10 years of 'thinking about it' - I signed up for a Judo class. I come home with bruises all over my arms - my arm was hurting last night and kept waking me up - and I LOVE IT. Its challenging. Its manly. And the psychological aspect of finally doing something that I'd threatened to do for years is immeasurable.
> 
> But - it took my wife nearly leaving me to light the fire under my butt and make those changes. Like you said about your hubby - I thought I was being "good" by just being at home and agreeing to put my guitar and amp away because I'm a "grown-up" now - and they didn't fit the decor.
> 
> I thought I was making her happy but I found out the hard way that I was wrong.
> 
> I just don't know an easy way to force someone who is *comfortably unhappy *into making positive changes.


That's fabulous NG. Magic.

Happiness is an art .

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> Now we are in almost a punishment phase if you will. He knows I want to go out with him. He says "next week" and then next week roles around and it doesn't happen. Passive aggressive BS crap is what it is. The ignoring me part is also passive aggressive. He knows it hurts me and I think that is the point. This behvior didn't just happen over night. It is 17 years in the making of him feeling slighted, belittled and hurt. My resentment is 17 years in the making of being his lowest priority, constantly let down and totally ignored. So I would yell and say awful things to him. He essentially removed me from his life in turn. Hence the "death spiral" that Deejo talks about. Vicious vicious cycle. I don't know how to break it.


Forgive.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> VT, maybe think on this, your objective truth is subjective.
> 
> Bob


:iagree:


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> Forgive.


Bob - not trying to start your fan club here, although it kind of feels that way.

I started to type this yesterday - that Forgiveness is the cure for Resentment.

I had just kind of reached that point where I felt I was typing too much and had reminded myself how bad it would be if someone would mistake me as someone who actually knows whats going on around here!


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Don't get me wrong - we all enjoy that type of attention - but if I start spending most of my time discussing my Greatness in the Women's Lounge, I'm guessing my days would be numbered...
> 
> This is all theory - I know nothing of the truth.


My husband always jokes that people who don't sound quite right are really 500lb men living in the mother's basement getting their kicks on the 'net.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Greenpearl almost seemed a bit too good to be true in some ways. Not surprised her stay was very short lived.
> 
> I'm not sure that she was "trolling" - but I think that a woman who comes to a marriage forum and brags about how perfect they are and how much they love sex is likely to get some private attention.
> 
> I kind of expected her to get called out on this at one point during one of our discussions about a "need" for friends of the opposite sex. She was going on and on about how she felt a need to talk to men, and that her husband had approved of her coming to this board to meet that need.
> 
> I kept expecting SOMEONE to pop up and challenge the need for a woman who is SOOO happily married to need to talk to other men so badly.
> 
> In other words - I think she had a need for male attention, knew this was a good place to find it, and likely got some thrown her way privately.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - we all enjoy that type of attention - but if I start spending most of my time discussing my Greatness in the Women's Lounge, I'm guessing my days would be numbered...
> 
> This is all theory - I know nothing of the truth.


Test it out! That would be entertaining.

She seemed too good to be true to me as well. I told myself that it might be the cultural difference that maybe as an American I couldn't relate to her. I don't know. Her posts were always like: 

Listen to BBW and Mem and all men because they are always right. I looooooooove my husband and when he spanks my butt I loooooooove that too and I love to get all sexy and bounce because my husband likes it but no girls like me because they are soooooo jealous because I am hot and skinny perfect!!!!!!


----------



## Mom6547

AFEH said:


> VT, maybe think on this, your objective truth is subjective.
> 
> Bob


Oh WAIT! Why am I arguing with this?!? I get to have my very own truth?!? Cool. Never had that before.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Dr. Scanner,
> I hope I don't come across as taking my gender role too seriously. Perhaps my opinions are different because I married a guy who doesn't take gender roles seriously. It's really blended. Part of me wishes it wasn't.
> 
> And forgive me good Dr. For some reason I thought you were from Jersey. I could have sworn when you said something about Michzz being from the West Coast that you said something about Jersey. Obviously I read that wrong. Never thought mafia though. Your writing is too good to be a "Vinny".


It is ironic that so many guys here write about having them removed, and so many women here write about how they wish - somehow - to re-attach them.

I think the seriousness associated with gender roles has something to do with it.


----------



## Conrad

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Oh WAIT! Why am I arguing with this?!? I get to have my very own truth?!? Cool. Never had that before.


Might be a fancy word for a fully-formed opinion/conviction.

But, what the hell.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Listen to BBW and Mem and all men because they are always right. I looooooooove my husband and when he spanks my butt I loooooooove that too and I love to get all sexy and bounce because my husband likes it but no girls like me because they are soooooo jealous because I am hot and skinny perfect!!!!!!


I love to quote things out of context.

Appears that Trenton has been converted!!!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
Since you started with "you women could learn a thing or two", I will do the same. "You men could learn a things or two" from Nice777Guy. His read on her is dead on. I felt this from the beginning and still stood up for her. I think alot of other women got this vibe.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I love to quote things out of context.
> 
> Appears that Trenton has been converted!!!


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> Might be a fancy word for a fully-formed opinion/conviction.
> 
> But, what the hell.


How do you know how my convictions are formed? I think we have some folk who are just annoyed by a person, perhaps a woman, being confident in an opinion. I am not sure why that would be annoying.

Do you feel you should be wishy washy about YOUR opinion? If NG just repeats over and over that I am wrong, I should say Oh gee Big Mr Man, you must be right!


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> How do you know how my convictions are formed? I think we have some folk who are just annoyed by a person, perhaps a woman, being confident in an opinion. I am not sure why that would be annoying.
> 
> Do you feel you should be wishy washy about YOUR opinion? If NG just repeats over and over that I am wrong, I should say Oh gee Big Mr Man, you must be right!


I wonder if we couldn't declare our sexes if the forums would play out differently. I think everyone at first assumed I was a guy because Trenton is masculine but I picked it because it was the first NJ city that came to mind and I'm not that creative with usernames.

I also wonder if it would make a difference if you posted a profile picture of your beautiful self. Would men be kinder to an opinionated woman if they knew she was gorgeous?


----------



## Mom6547

What makes you think I am gorgeous?!? Don't I just WISH! The men would fall before me. BWaahhaaaaaahhhhaaaa


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Might be a fancy word for a fully-formed opinion/conviction.
> 
> But, what the hell.


Conrad and VT - 

I'm not even sure what Conrad's quote here means. I don't read the idea of that having fully formed opinions or convictions as a bad thing. Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm - or maybe VT is reading too much sarcasm into it.

The opposite would be to have poorly thought out, weakly formed thoughts that you don't even feel that strongly about anyway. THAT would be an insult.

And VT - I've only truly called you out directly ONCE. We've expressed differing opinions, but that's kind of the point here, right?


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What makes you think I am gorgeous?!? Don't I just WISH! The men would fall before me. BWaahhaaaaaahhhhaaaa


I don't know. I just make up appearances to go with the attitude. If I were a guy I'd most likely picture you as ugly because I would equate confidence/forthrightness with ugly but since I'm a woman and I equate confidence/forthrightness with beauty I assume you're beautiful.

I'm just making assumptions really and you know what they say about doing that...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> Greenpearl almost seemed a bit too good to be true in some ways. Not surprised her stay was very short lived.
> 
> I'm not sure that she was "trolling" - but I think that a woman who comes to a marriage forum and brags about how perfect they are and how much they love sex is likely to get some private attention.
> 
> I kind of expected her to get called out on this at one point during one of our discussions about a "need" for friends of the opposite sex. She was going on and on about how she felt a need to talk to men, and that her husband had approved of her coming to this board to meet that need.
> 
> I kept expecting SOMEONE to pop up and challenge the need for a woman who is SOOO happily married to need to talk to other men so badly.
> 
> In other words - I think she had a need for male attention, knew this was a good place to find it, and likely got some thrown her way privately.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - we all enjoy that type of attention - but if I start spending most of my time discussing my Greatness in the Women's Lounge, I'm guessing my days would be numbered...
> 
> This is all theory - I know nothing of the truth.


 I just want to say, I do know "the story", as me & her Facebooked each other shorty before the ban. I have a few friends on this forum how know who I really am. It is nice to see a face, so long as we are hush hush about our identities (on facebook) here at TAM !!!! 

I do NOT believe she was bragging, she was not a troll, I had a # of private conversations with her and as I understand, in her country it is totally taboo to talk to the opposite sex. And she is a very Open minded woman so she has much curisoity. So her only outlet for learning is talking & sharing on forums, this her husband is comfortable with, he has a Username on here also, read one of his posts, sounds VERY intellgent indeed. I do believe they are happily married. The reason for her ban was rather funny. That is all I will say, it will soon be up and she just might be back !!


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton and Brennan - thought you were both gay males speaking about your "partners"...

Not that there's anything wrong with it...


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Would men be kinder to an opinionated woman if they knew she was gorgeous?


I would. For a few minutes anyway ... then the opinions would invariably get in the way again. A shrew is a shrew whether she's hot or not. 

Although this wouldn't prove much. Studies have been done using infants and adults - we generally have more favorable responses towards people that are attractive.


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Trenton and Brennan - thought you were both gay males speaking about your "partners"...
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with it...


Too funny!!!


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I would. For a few minutes anyway ... then the opinions would invariably get in the way again. A shrew is a shrew whether she's hot or not.
> 
> Although this wouldn't prove much. Studies have been done using infants and adults - we generally have more favorable responses towards people that are attractive.


So you think a woman with an opinion would equal shrew or you're assuming that the strong opinions you disagree with?


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Conrad and VT -
> 
> I'm not even sure what Conrad's quote here means. I don't read the idea of that having fully formed opinions or convictions as a bad thing. Maybe I'm missing the sarcasm - or maybe VT is reading too much sarcasm into it.


I wasn't reading ANY sarcasm into it. I think he was saying that my convictions are stuck in my head in a manner that cannot be changed. They arrived fully formed and there they will stay. Forever.



> And VT - I've only truly called you out directly ONCE. We've expressed differing opinions, but that's kind of the point here, right?


Yup. Based on that one call out, I think I am being told that I am intractable in my thinking. I am merely responding that no one has said anything to change my mind. No biggie.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

NG,
I'm about as gay as you are. **wink**


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Trenton and Brennan - thought you were both gay males speaking about your "partners"...
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with it...


I just aspirated and passed a piece of apple through my nose from laughing. Wish I had video to share.


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> I would. For a few minutes anyway ... then the opinions would invariably get in the way again. A shrew is a shrew whether she's hot or not.


:scratchhead: Did I just get called a shrew?!? Ok, I have been called LOTS worse.


----------



## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just want to say, I do know "the story", as me & her Facebooked each other shorty before the ban. I have a few friends on this forum how know who I really am. It is nice to see a face, so long as we are hush hush about our identities (on facebook) here at TAM !!!!
> 
> I do NOT believe she was bragging, she was not a troll, I had a # of private conversations with her and as I understand, in her country it is totally taboo to talk to the opposite sex. And she is a very Open minded woman so she has much curisoity. So her only outlet for learning is talking & sharing on forums, this her husband is comfortable with, he has a Username on here also, read one of his posts, sounds VERY intellgent indeed. I do believe they are happily married. The reason for her ban was rather funny. That is all I will say, it will soon be up and she just might be back !!


You know I'm tempted to Facebook friend her now


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> So you think a woman with an opinion would equal shrew or you're assuming that the strong opinions you disagree with?


I don't understand the question, can you please send me a picture?


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> I don't understand the question, can you please send me a picture?


LOL! THAT was funny.


----------



## AFEH

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Bob, if you have a point, I sure wish you would make it. You are about as direct as the river near my house. Playing Old Mr. Sage or something? There was a guy on another group who used to say "Seek truth within, grasshopper" every time he had nothing actually useful to say. Weird.
> 
> Someone's interpretation or attempted understanding of objective truth is always going to be subjective. The truth is still objectively out there waiting to be learned.


It’s ok, you already knew. As did grasshopper. The difference is you haven’t as yet accepted it.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I don't understand the question, can you please send me a picture?


Hahahahaha!


----------



## nice777guy

SA - I would be surprised if you haven't been hit on in PMs frequently. You come across as a bit more "human" than GP - with flaws and such - so you don't seem to be bragging so much.

I could be wrong. I don't think GP was a "troll" either - just not the right word.

The only person I know who got banned was just being VERY opinionated and probably hurt a few feelings - likely some newbies.




SimplyAmorous said:


> I just want to say, I do know "the story", as me & her Facebooked each other shorty before the ban. I have a few friends on this forum how know who I really am. It is nice to see a face, so long as we are hush hush about our identities (on facebook) here at TAM !!!!
> 
> I do NOT believe she was bragging, she was not a troll, I had a # of private conversations with her and as I understand, in her country it is totally taboo to talk to the opposite sex. And she is a very Open minded woman so she has much curisoity. So her only outlet for learning is talking & sharing on forums, this her husband is comfortable with, he has a Username on here also, read one of his posts, sounds VERY intellgent indeed. I do believe they are happily married. The reason for her ban was rather funny. That is all I will say, it will soon be up and she just might be back !!


----------



## Deejo

vthomeschoolmom said:


> :scratchhead: Did I just get called a shrew?!? Ok, I have been called LOTS worse.


No, no dear. You're more of a harpy. Big difference.


----------



## nice777guy

OK then VT - from now on I will assume that your opinions are NOT fully formed - but instead are merely random fragments of thoughts that have NO basis in reality! I will assume that when you emphasize things using CAPS that you just have a faulty keyboard and not any true convictions.

My apologies...

(sarcasm intended)


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> SA - I would be surprised if you haven't been hit on in PMs frequently. You come across as a bit more "human" than GP - with flaws and such - so you don't seem to be bragging so much.


 Thank you so much Nice Guy for this comment, cause Sometimes I FEEL I am coming off as "bragging" and I really don't want to do that. Being on a forum, you really have no idea who is telling the honest truth about themselves, their marragies or what their agenda really is. I Want to be Real, showing MY flaws as well, so If others can see that & can appreciate it , I am happy for this.


----------



## nice777guy

I'm starting to fear that we'll ALL be banned - all of us on this thread.

Or maybe they'll just ban us TO THIS THREAD. We'll be able to read what others are posting, but we'll be stuck HERE - only allowed to post on a thread that was started as a satirical comment on gender roles. THIS will be our punishment. 

Welcome to hell boys and girls!


----------



## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you so much Nice Guy for this comment, cause Sometimes I FEEL I am coming off as "bragging" and I really don't want to do that. Being on a forum, you really have no idea who is telling the honest truth about themselves, their marragies or what their agenda really is. I Want to be Real, showing MY flaws as well, so If others can see that & can appreciate it , I am happy for this.


The sexy avatar doesn't exactly help you know!


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just want to say, I do know "the story", as me & her Facebooked each other shorty before the ban. I have a few friends on this forum how know who I really am. It is nice to see a face, so long as we are hush hush about our identities (on facebook) here at TAM !!!!
> 
> I do NOT believe she was bragging, she was not a troll, I had a # of private conversations with her and as I understand, in her country it is totally taboo to talk to the opposite sex. And she is a very Open minded woman so she has much curisoity. So her only outlet for learning is talking & sharing on forums, this her husband is comfortable with, he has a Username on here also, read one of his posts, sounds VERY intellgent indeed. I do believe they are happily married. The reason for her ban was rather funny. That is all I will say, it will soon be up and she just might be back !!


I agree with that SA. GPs ok. Like most of us trying to sort stuff out. May not be her marriage but other things going on inside her.

Bob


----------



## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you so much Nice Guy for this comment, cause Sometimes I FEEL I am coming off as "bragging" and I really don't want to do that. Being on a forum, you really have no idea who is telling the honest truth about themselves, their marragies or what their agenda really is. I Want to be Real, showing MY flaws as well, so If others can see that & can appreciate it , I am happy for this.


Mind if I ask - do you get hit on a lot with PMs?

I could see a lot of lonely newbies who don't quite get how legitimate this site is that would go straight for that avatar.

And yes - I think I am flirting with your avatar with all of these compliments.


----------



## Crypsys

nice777guy said:


> Mind if I ask - do you get hit on a lot with PMs?
> 
> I could see a lot of lonely newbies who don't quite get how legitimate this site is that would go straight for that avatar.
> 
> And yes - I think I am flirting with your avatar with all of these compliments.


Hmm, based on SA's post count now, she's the Anti-Christ... 










:lol::rofl:


----------



## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you so much Nice Guy for this comment, cause Sometimes I FEEL I am coming off as "bragging" and I really don't want to do that. Being on a forum, you really have no idea who is telling the honest truth about themselves, their marragies or what their agenda really is. I Want to be Real, showing MY flaws as well, so If others can see that & can appreciate it , I am happy for this.


Yes, during your first pm I was afraid to friend you on Facebook because I was afraid you were actually a man trying to trick me. After reading you for awhile and friending you I was happy to find you are exactly who you type you are. It's refreshing.


----------



## Deejo

I got hit on A LOT using this avatar ...


----------



## Crypsys

Deejo said:


> I got hit on A LOT using this avatar ...


Same for me. Too bad all of the people who hit on me are some real Apes.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo - I'm at work - please don't do that! I don't get in trouble for sudden loud bursts of laughter, but people sure do look at me weird!

I was hoping you'd send me a pic of your magnificent breasts sometime!

Crypsys - when you noticed that 666, were you staring at my favoriate avatar?


----------



## Deejo

By the way, have we settled this little kerfuffel that men vacuuming naked is not nearly as attractive as when women do it?

Assisting with housework if the fair lady asks, or if you know she is out straight makes you hero. Preemptively deciding to dust and wax as a form of foreplay does not.

That is all.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> The sexy avatar doesn't exactly help you know!


 I chose such an Avatar & "SimplyAmorous" cause it embodies how I "FEEL" these days. As anyone who has read any of my posts know, It was not always this way!! Husband likened me to a NUN for many years. When I came here, I was wondering if I had a sexual addiction or something, I was buying endless lingerie on Ebay at the same time, even joined a Sex addiction board for a short time. I was MAD about spicing my sex life up. So when I seen that avatar in an image search, I just said to myself - that is me ~~~~ a newly awakened Seductress (but only for my husband of coarse). 

I will surely laugh about these things some day.


----------



## Deejo

This one would work too, particularly if you think of yourself as a hyper-sexual killer cyborg Seductress.

This was the character I immediately thought of when coming across your av for the first time:











Link to gigantic hyper sexual killer cyborg seductress.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton thought you were a guy trolling for sex!?!?!?!



SimplyAmorous said:


> I chose such an Avatar & "SimplyAmorous" cause it embodies how I "FEEL" these days. As anyone who has read any of my posts know, It was not always this way!! Husband likened me to a NUN for many years. When I came here, I was wondering if I had a sexual addiction or something, I was buying endless lingerie on Ebay at the same time, even joined a Sex addiction board for a short time. I was MAD about spicing my sex life up. So when I seen that avatar in an image search, I just said to myself - that is me ~~~~ a newly awakened Seductress (but only for my husband of coarse).
> 
> I will surely laugh about these things some day.


----------



## Scannerguard

Okay, it appears I have stimulated more discussion - Greenpearl.

Look:

A. I wasn't saying I had a crush on her. I just say her mannerisms are what a lot of men find attractive. Women from the South US and yes, Asian women (as cultural and subcultural generalizations) seem to know how to talk to men in a way that make them feel special or I am not sure what it is.

They present a good mood and they present admiration.

Women want love. Men want admiration. 

Like the male bird flashing it's colors to impress the female. Modern women don't get impressed too much I guess.

Like that woman on Designing Woman who was kind of ****ty - other than the money chasing she did, yes, that's the kind of woman I would like to date.

All I am saying is women are finding their relationship on the rocks, they could learn a thing or two about women who know how to talk to men that way.

I am sure the liberal psychobabblists will have a field day with it - stroking the male ego, whatever. . .call it that if you will. I don't really care. Psychobabble away on me!

B. I wasn't accusing anyone here of directly having her banned. I know she participates over in the sex forum a lot and it could have been people over there (or the moderator, which is his/her right of course).

I would hope they would be more inclined to exercise a suspension and warnings before an out and out ban.

C. Let's all remember there are "internet personalities" and "real personalities." Sometimes they are the same and sometimes not.

For instance, in real life I am an interesting, humorous guy who's a stud in bed and well, on the internet I am that too. Well, okay, let's skip this part. . .next. . .

D. Far be it from me, after 42 years on this earth to suggest women have a way of being catty with each other. I am not sure how I got that crazy generalization in my brain that searches for patterns.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Women want love. Men want admiration.


:slap:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

If we are getting turned on by avatars then I think Chris's is by far the hottest. "I'm your huckleberry". Wew, pass me the smelling salts.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> Mind if I ask - do you get hit on a lot with PMs?
> 
> I could see a lot of lonely newbies who don't quite get how legitimate this site is that would go straight for that avatar.


I can't say that men are Pming me thinking I am up for something at all. I do recall 1 that was a little frisky -asking me many sexual questons, but of coarse these things didnt go anywhere. I am happily married. 

I have PMed way more people 1st -than has Pmed me 1st. Even here, I am usually the "aggressor", it seems. 

If I really LOVE someone's advice-even to another, touched by it, I may let them know privately, or to encourage someone behind the scenes, if I find something intregeing, curious for more info (women with lower test husbands for example), bothered by it -any old thing. I pmed BBW a long time ago cause the stuff he was saying was getting under my skin, I felt he was insulting my husband so I wanted a better understanding with him- cause I really loved much of what he was saying but it also ATE at me. We have come a long way. 

Once this guy Pmed me and wanted MY specific advice on his particular situation with his wife-and gave me the link, he told me he read alot of my posts and felt I could help. That was very touching. And another lady here picked me out for some reason & wants me advice from time to time , always says it helps. 

A few of my friends in real life feel I would make a good "Life Couch" / "Relationship Coach" cause I ENJOY this kind of thing so much, but I think I will surely have to ditch "SimplyAmorous" & that seductive Avatar & start fresh if so, though one posting Life couch on here feels I wouldnt have too, I found that very interesting.


----------



## Conrad

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I wasn't reading ANY sarcasm into it. I think he was saying that my convictions are stuck in my head in a manner that cannot be changed. They arrived fully formed and there they will stay. Forever.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. Based on that one call out, I think I am being told that I am intractable in my thinking. I am merely responding that no one has said anything to change my mind. No biggie.


There's quite a bit of irony in this discourse.

However, my opinions are fully formed as well.

We would likely argue over politics and many other things. But, if you have facts to back up your views - instead of only political correctness and emotionalism - then it's all to the good.

I do find your reading of my words quite defensive. I believe Brennan and Trenton may have had that reaction at first, but you seem most determined in reading me that way.


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad, that sounds like fun!


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> I do find your reading of my words quite defensive. I believe Brennan and Trenton may have had that reaction at first, but you seem most determined in reading me that way.


Tone often doesn't carry well in digital media.


----------



## Crypsys

......Post removed....


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I stand corrected. That was NOT the context of GP's post. Apologies to all!!! It's been a crappy day for me.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

And for the record, my very first post was about oral sex in the sex forum. Who am I to judge. Like I said, bad day.


----------



## Scannerguard

Yes, Vthomeschoolmom,

men do want admiration and women want love.

I'm telling you all. . .you can't pay enough money for these gold nuggets and pearls of wisdom I offer to you all for free.

Remember that one.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
In all sincerity, how do you show admiration to a man? I do know I want love and I know hubbie wants to be admired. How do I show this? Compliments? This is a serious question that I love to hear your pearls of wisdom on and other guys as well.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Scanner,
> In all sincerity, how do you show admiration to a man? I do know I want love and I know hubbie wants to be admired. How do I show this? Compliments? This is a serious question that I love to hear your pearls of wisdom on and other guys as well.


Scanners quote sounded real good the first time I read it.

Then you start thinking about your question - and I come up with a very short list:

Listen
Compliment
Treat him - and his values - respectfully

But then I think that these are also applicable to women. If not more so. Especially the Listen and Compliment parts.

So - is Love really more important to women than it is to men?


----------



## Scannerguard

Well, ever do any acting on stage? I did a lot in high school.

Wow. . .you would have never guessed it but I am kind of a ham. 

Anyway, I would say when you act on stage, you almost have to "overact" as compared to TV and movies as there is no close-up. Otherwise, the audience doesn't get it. They don't see facial expressions and nuances of verbal tone.

It's the same way with men.

While images of Delta Burke (I think that was her name from Designing Women) being all flirty and obvious with men may make you wince, I think that's exactly what you have to be with a man.

Like if he lifts something heavy, admire his strength and say, "Oh my! I just can't beleive what a big and strong man I married! I am so happy to have that around me!" And be sincere (lol!)! Show yourself getting all hot and bothered by that, even if it's just a moment of wetness and then you clear your brow.

That's just one example that can be extrapolated to all departments - finances, for instance.

"I don't think I could ever understand the world of investing like you do. I am so happy you handle that for me!!!"

Not for nothing, this will work. 

You'll then get your "lovin", if you give "admiration."

It's biological. We fluff our feathers and want to be noticed from the women in nest with just brown and white feathers.

Now, if you would just tell me how much I make you laugh so. . .I'll give you your lovin'


----------



## nice777guy

That actually happens a lot when we get into these gender discussions. When speaking generally, things sound really good. 

Then you break them down into specifics, and you see that neither gender wishes to be taken for granted, ignored, etc., etc.,

What woman doesn't want to be told how "hot" she looks before going out on a date with her husband? 

And they want to hear it with the same enthusiasm that Delta Burke would use.

And if I ever heard a woman say that they couldn't possibly understand the complicated world of accounting - I would think they were being sarcastic - or trying to get something from me...


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

The first few years we were married I used to nag my husband about helping around the house. 

He finally shut me up with this:

"I know how to vacuum, I'm a great cook and I can work a washer and dryer and if I wanted to still be doing all that I would have remained single."

Now - blunt and to the point - but it made his point.

So now, the INSIDE is mine, and the OUTSIDE is his - no more arguing, no more control issues and no confusion about who does what.

Works for us.


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> Scanners quote sounded real good the first time I read it.
> 
> Then you start thinking about your question - and I come up with a very short list:
> 
> Listen
> Compliment


I don't know about other people. But if I was attempting to compliment my DH and it came out ... even a little bit contrived, it would have the polar opposite effect.

Just a risk to consider.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> While images of Delta Burke (I think that was her name from Designing Women) being all flirty and obvious with men may make you wince, I think that's exactly what you have to be with a man.


See this is an example. It may be how YOU would like it. But I am pretty sure that if you did that with my DH, he would happily take you home and f*** you, but he wouldn't want to date or marry you... assuming he was free to take you home and ... you know.



> Like if he lifts something heavy, admire his strength and say, "Oh my! I just can't beleive what a big and strong man I married! I am so happy to have that around me!"


:rofl:Literally. 

We make a joke about that. I just keep him around to lift heavy things. I make gushing noises when he lifts.... as a joke!

SINCERE appreciation comes when he enters the house wearing a tool belt. He never gets anything done with his tool belt on.


> "I don't think I could ever understand the world of investing like you do. I am so happy you handle that for me!!!"


Is this humor? Like the mowing?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

All good talking points but my husband is more cerebral. What I mean is he couldn't give a crap if I told him he can lift well. The finance part is out as he doesn't take care of them, I do. Former stockbroker and now work in accounting. He would die laughing if I complimented him on finances. Anything else? Take an interest in his gaming? I mean this guy is really really intelligent. Yes, Mensa member, I kid you not. I think he might see this as pandering to him. I don't know. Throw anything else out there guys, keep 'em coming.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Crypsys said:


> . A thread about penis length doesn't stand out (to me at least) as all that odd. Then again, I never saw the thread in question, so I may be speaking from a incomplete picture of the situation..


 I tried to help GreenPearl out, told her about this DVD I rented about a year ago (couldn't believe Netflix & Blockbuster carry this), if they have this in her country, maybe her curisoity will be satisfied. 

Private ****s: Men Exposed DVD Rental, Rent Private ****s: Men Exposed Movie Online


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan, one thing that my DH likes is for me to listen to him about his work. We share the same field, or at least we did before I left to school the kids. My husband is also Mensa, so I don't try to keep up with his thinking. If he were to try to explain a game or puzzle, I would be lost. But I CAN recognize when he solved a software problem elegantly, handled a customer or managed his boss with grace and aplomb. On the flip side, if I think he acted like a touch of a bone head, I don't say anything. 

For me it is not really admiration that I am trying to show. I am thinking scannerguard has to be kidding with all that big hunky man meat stuff. But genuine *appreciation* never goes awry. (And when I first started doing it, I had to look pretty hard for things to appreciate if you want to know the truth.) Now it is very easy. Thank you so much for making (insert kid's name here) costume. I never would have been able to make that as well. True dat. Wow I was really stressing out about that birthday cake. Thanks for making it. Oh boy, our friends really enjoyed that meal. It was nice for me to get to sit and socialize. Thanks for cooking! Oh Lord honey, thanks for that massage. That is just what I needed.

Just a thought.


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan - is there some way you can become involved in his gaming? Aren't some of those games almost "social" in nature now? Don't know anything about it, but I've seen several posts around here where people start having EAs through World of Warcraft. Sounds strange to me - but I guess its a reality. So - depending on what he's playing - it could possibly be a way for you to connect.

I have to admit that I kind of like my wife showing "concern" over the bruises I get from Judo. And yes - if I lift something heavy and get a compliment - the ego goes up.

And there have been a few times when I've stretched my comfort zone on home repairs when I DIDN'T get a compliment when something was a bit harder than it looked. Fixing a switch on the washer for example. Wasn't too hard - but I was proud that I even tried it. But my wife just kind of glossed over it.

What do you admire about your husband?


----------



## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> What do you admire about your husband?


THAT is the best question yet.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

VT
Those are all fantastic ideas! Hubbie is also in software. Clearly, he knows more about it than I ever could/would. It's not my passion. One day I did come to him and ask about something software related and his eyes lit up. He talked with me for over 30 minutes about it and while parts alluded me, it was pretty interesting. He appreciated that. I think I need to get back to that. Thank you again, VT. Any other suggestions from others? I really do want to show appreciation (not worship) to him. I want this marriage to work.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> VT
> Those are all fantastic ideas! Hubbie is also in software. Clearly, he knows more about it than I ever could/would. It's not my passion. One day I did come to him and ask about something software related and his eyes lit up. He talked with me for over 30 minutes about it and while parts alluded me, it was pretty interesting. He appreciated that. I think I need to get back to that. Thank you again, VT. Any other suggestions from others? I really do want to show appreciation (not worship) to him. I want this marriage to work.


That's playmate/companion stuff. 

Stay with it. Think of other things where he's reacted that way.

How about football?


----------



## Mom6547

DH likes it when I ask him to fix things computer related. I could do it myself. But he likes it. Or to find me a solution to problem X.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> That's playmate/companion stuff.
> 
> Stay with it. Think of other things where he's reacted that way.
> 
> How about football?


Conrad - you are so CONCISE - I have trouble understanding you sometimes.

Are you saying playmate/companion stuff is good? As in being a good friend and being "playful"? 

At first I pictureed a playboy playmate in my head - which makes me think of a woman trying to be a fake or too perfect - fantasy-like.

Thx


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Conrad - you are so CONCISE - I have trouble understanding you sometimes.
> 
> Are you saying playmate/companion stuff is good? As in being a good friend and being "playful"?
> 
> At first I pictureed a playboy playmate in my head - which makes me think of a woman trying to be a fake or too perfect - fantasy-like.
> 
> Thx


NG,

Remember Scanner's post about how men want to have fun?

There is no one they'd rather share their expertise/fun with than their wives.

My heart sinks everytime we get into one of my areas and my wife simply checks out of the discussion.

Stuff like motorcycle riding, darts, football, ping-pong, etc.

Think of the beer commercials with all those beautiful gals out in the woods.

We WANT them to be our playmates.

It fills a need.

So many neglect that part of the relationship - and then wonder why their man emotionally shuts down.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> Remember Scanner's post about how men want to have fun?
> 
> There is no one they'd rather share their expertise/fun with than their wives.
> 
> My heart sinks everytime we get into one of my areas and my wife simply checks out of the discussion.
> 
> Stuff like motorcycle riding, darts, football, ping-pong, etc.
> 
> Think of the beer commercials with all those beautiful gals out in the woods.
> 
> We WANT them to be our playmates.
> 
> It fills a need.
> 
> So many neglect that part of the relationship - and then wonder why their man emotionally shuts down.


:iagree:

Gotcha - thx


----------



## nice777guy

That post just kind of made me think about something that I'm sure seemed small to my wife, but that has stuck in my head for 20+ years.

I remember the first time I heard Pearl Jam in college - thinking they were brilliant - and trying to get my wife to listen to them. 

She didn't give it much of a chance - until some other guy convinced her about how cool they were.

Of course the other guy is long gone - but that memory sticks with me for some odd reason...

Being heard and allowing us to share things with you are very important.

have a good weekend guys and gals!


----------



## Scannerguard

I kid you not on this stuff about gushing over hunky stuff with lifting a heavy object or fixing a lawnmower or something even cerebral.

And yes, you don't think it would work on your man, as he may see it as contrived. But admiration, genuine, works in getting the love women seek.

That's easily solved, the contrived part. . .just use a disclaimer.

"This may seem awfully contrived but oh my. . .I just get all flustered inside when you lift a heavy object like that, makes my knees wobble. . ." and just grin and go back to washing the dishes, as if you off fantasizing about him.

You could also admire his sexual prowess as another example.

My ex-gf used to say, "It's a good thing you are so good in bed. . ."

and i would say,

"I know, baby. I know."


----------



## Trenton

Brennan, is your husband a gaming freak? There is a game Ultima Online and you can play on private shards that are adult only (not sexual in nature although they do have some of that). You actually have to write a character story and apply to be accepted on the shard and in the game you actually stay in character. I found this so overwhelmingly fascinating. You wrote the story in text and uploaded it and then the story came to life through interaction both in game and on the text boards. 

You don't have to be experienced you can be a noob. I had never played any other game before this game but a friend had suggested it to me. I don't play anymore as this type of forum chit chat or Facebook chit chat where I can type on/type off really quick is much easier for me with the three kids and our schedules. 

If you're interested in doing this with your husband if he's into that type of thing I really, really think you'll love it. Let 
me know and I'll send you a link.

Either way, showing a common interest with your husband and being willing to step into his world could do wonders for your relationship. It could also do wonders for you. My husband and I always had music and we still attend concerts and things like that together. It's the major thing that brought us together years ago.


----------



## Scannerguard

Brennan:



> I really do want to show appreciation (not worship) to him. I want this marriage to work.


Not "show appreciation" (although definitely that's good, definitely!) - show ADMIRATION.

A slight difference, a slight nuance but important nonetheless.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> Remember Scanner's post about how men want to have fun?
> 
> There is no one they'd rather share their expertise/fun with than their wives.
> 
> My heart sinks everytime we get into one of my areas and my wife simply checks out of the discussion.
> 
> Stuff like motorcycle riding, darts, football, ping-pong, etc.
> 
> Think of the beer commercials with all those beautiful gals out in the woods.
> 
> We WANT them to be our playmates.
> 
> It fills a need.
> 
> So many neglect that part of the relationship - and then wonder why their man emotionally shuts down.


Is the man in the relationship doing the same for her? As long as it's a two way street, I totally agree with you.


----------



## Trenton

Scannerguard said:


> I kid you not on this stuff about gushing over hunky stuff with lifting a heavy object or fixing a lawnmower or something even cerebral.
> 
> And yes, you don't think it would work on your man, as he may see it as contrived. But admiration, genuine, works in getting the love women seek.
> 
> That's easily solved, the contrived part. . .just use a disclaimer.
> 
> "This may seem awfully contrived but oh my. . .I just get all flustered inside when you lift a heavy object like that, makes my knees wobble. . ." and just grin and go back to washing the dishes, as if you off fantasizing about him.
> 
> You could also admire his sexual prowess as another example.
> 
> My ex-gf used to say, "It's a good thing you are so good in bed. . ."
> 
> and i would say,
> 
> "I know, baby. I know."


You're such a cheese ball.


----------



## Scannerguard

Guilty.

As charged. 

And as cheesy as the last exchange felt, was and is. . .who do you think got the most of out the exchange?

The ex-GF? Or me?

Meditate on that.


----------



## Trenton

Scannerguard said:


> Guilty.
> 
> As charged.
> 
> And as cheesy as the last exchange felt, was and is. . .who do you think got the most of out the exchange?
> 
> The ex-GF? Or me?
> 
> Meditate on that.


You'd have to bring her to the boards so we could find out.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Brennan:
> 
> 
> 
> Not "show appreciation" (although definitely that's good, definitely!) - show ADMIRATION.
> 
> A slight difference, a slight nuance but important nonetheless.


I guess if I were married to such a man, I would think he must be a terrible weakling to need such ... fawning.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

What do I admire? This is in not in order, just what came to my mind:
First: His intelligence. Despite dyslexia, he overcame so much and graduated high school number 1 in his class. He went on to graduate from a top notch university and then get his MBA. He is also a member of Mensa. IQ: 162. There isn't a problem he cannot solve.
Second: He is very good looking. Always has been. Nearly 40, full head of hair, not a wrinkle on his face and looks like Tom Brady. 
Third: The most awesome father in the world. It is because he came from a family that prided themselves in parenting. On Mondays and Wednesdays he gets to work at 5:00 am (and gets up at 4:00) so he can leave work early to be Head Coach of our youngest son's soccer team. He is a hero to every boy on that team. He has coached nearly all of them for 9 years. Both our boys have deep, close connections with him. Our oldest (almost 18) called him at work when he thought his gf might be pregnant and asked for advice. She wasn't, but that stood as a testament to their relationship and the closeness they have. Our son felt safe that his father wouldn't yell, scream or berate him. Hubbie listened and then calmly said he would pick up a pregnancy test on his way home and not to worry, everything would work out. It did.
Fourth: He is loyal with every fiber of his being. He has 4 friends that he has known for over 25+ years. If you are his true friend, you are his friend for life, no matter what happens. He is the glue that holds them all together. He is also loyal to me. We have problems, BIG problems but it would never, ever enter his mind to cheat. Ever. He has often said that if things felt so bad between us that he needed to step out on me, he would divorce me. He would never degrade himself or me by sneaking around, lying and cheating. Ever. He has a certain moral code that he holds himself to. He does not, nor will he ever waver from that.
Fifth: He has never, ever made me feel stupid or small. Despite him graduating (literally) top of his class and going to a top ranked university and later getting his MBA, meanwhile I dropped out of college because I got pregnant. He always comes to me for information. Be it the news, politics, celebrity crap (rarely) or anything else...I am his go to person for information. He stopped wanting/seeking out learning, per se, when he graduated. He doesn't watch news shows or read up online about much. He knows I do though, so he asks me about it. He also knows that I have always felt inadequate about my lack of higher education (a bimbo as Scanner would put it, GRRRR.) and therefore I pride myself in constantly learning. He knows this and takes advantage of it, in a good way. His 4 closest friends are (in order) a named partner at a law firm, a journalist for a top ranked financial newswire, a number 9 employee at Google and a founder of a 7 state construction equipment leasing company. Yeah, one of them is retired now (at the age of 38)....you can guess which one. LOL. Anyways, he still comes to me for information and has told me in no uncertain terms that I am the smartest person he has ever known. A huge honor considering the company he keeps. 
Sixth: He knows all the words to Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start The Fire". Literally ALL of them and never messes up, ever!! This man could care less about the beat of music and his dancing abilities reflect that but boy does he pay attention to the lyrics. I have never met another human being who knows ALL the words to that song. Most of us (me) just start singing at "We didn't start the fire" and stop and let Billy take over on the historical diatribe.


----------



## Scannerguard

> I guess if I were married to such a man, I would think he must be a terrible weakling to need such ... fawning.


And you'd be wrong to to think that. That's all.

I would be rightly thinking:

"Why doesn't a woman act like a woman that she is supposed to?"

Women are supposed to admire their men and men are supposed to love their women.

It's the natural order of things.

Just like me pointing out when you are flawed in your thinking.


----------



## Scannerguard

> Fifth: He has never, ever made me feel stupid or small. Despite him graduating (literally) top of his class and going to a top ranked university and later getting his MBA, meanwhile I dropped out of college because I got pregnant. He always comes to me for information. Be it the news, politics, celebrity crap (rarely) or anything else...I am his go to person for information. He stopped wanting/seeking out learning, per se, when he graduated. He doesn't watch news shows or read up online about much. He knows I do though, so he asks me about it. He also knows that I have always felt inadequate about my lack of higher education (a bimbo as Scanner would put it, GRRRR.) and therefore I pride myself in constantly learning. He knows this and takes advantage of it, in a good way. His 4 closest friends are (in order) a named partner at a law firm, a journalist for a top ranked financial newswire, a number 9 employee at Google and a founder of a 7 state construction equipment leasing company. Yeah, one of them is retired now (at the age of 38)....you can guess which one. LOL. Anyways, he still comes to me for information and has told me in no uncertain terms that I am the smartest person he has ever known. A huge honor considering the company he keeps.


Well, here's a good one.

I would now "overact" it.

Say something like (and it needs some polish, talk to a Southern woman or an asian woman or a woman with the "knack"):

"You always make me feel so smart and I just know I am not as a smart as you! You know so many things about x, y, and z that I would just never know!"

Yes, you have to "overact it" a bit, but that's why I used the stage acting analogy. It's all in the non-verbal. Do it in a way of sincerity, but also of like Sally Brown having little hearts gushing out of her for Linus on Peanuts.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
I hear you but what if I AM as smart as he is and he knows it. He would be the first person to say that I am smarter than him. On paper, no. Life experiences and common sense, yes. Why would a man of his caliber come to me for advice and information if I wasn't? I don't think he would be amused if I suddenly came home and said "I am not as smart as you". In fact, I think he would be repulsed. He cannot stand unintelligent women and patronizing him would be viewed as an insult....I think. I don't know though.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan, maybe you can’t show your husband how much appreciate him because of your bitterness and resentment towards him.

Might not be your case, but I certainly felt it was the case with my wife. For example, she wrote me an “email of appreciation” for things I’d done for her that went back over the past 5 years or so after we’d decided to split. She was quite detailed about it. Maybe it was the thought that we were to part that freed her up from her resentment and allowed her to open up about her appreciation for me. It was really weird, she obviously had it all stacked up, all thought out to be able to write the email. She called it “closure”. I told her it was a waste of time and deleted the email because our marriage was dead. She may as well stood over my grave and told me, it fell on deaf ears.

Brennan we never know what tomorrow will bring, we seriously don’t. My mother said she wished she told my father how much she appreciated him, years after he’d passed away. It is way to late then.

This is want resentment can do in an extreme case, these are the personal boundaries I have now for my wife “I will never see her again under any circumstances. Weddings, funerals, Christenings etc.”. “I will never help her no matter what situation she finds herself in”. “I will make the divorce as amicable as I possibly can”. “I will act with integrity about the financial settlement”. “I will never criticise their mother to my two sons”.

That’s a complete turn about for me, an absolute turn about. I made those boundaries to protect myself from her.

If you really want to know how to show and demonstrate appreciation and the benefits of it buy the book “How To Win Friends And Influence People”. The titles a bit misleading, the book has sold over 18 million copies for a reason.

Hope this helps

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
You are a wise, wise man. My husband wants NOTHING more than for us to move on past the previous crap and move forward towards OUR new future. He called me 2 hours ago and said that he loved me and do I see a future with him? I had to think about that for a minute as my anger got the best of me. I told him I would call him back. I then went in to the bathroom and cried for 20 minutes. The most cathartic cry I think I have ever had. I called him back and said "Yes".


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> You are a wise, wise man. My husband wants NOTHING more than for us to move on past the previous crap and move forward towards OUR new future. He called me 2 hours ago and said that he loved me and do I see a future with him? I had to think about that for a minute as my anger got the best of me. I told him I would call him back. I then went in to the bathroom and cried for 20 minutes. The most cathartic cry I think I have ever had. I called him back and said "Yes".


Now that you've said yes.

Next time you see him... put your hand in his and tell him how much that call meant to you. (I'm welling up thinking about it)

When he responds, watch his body. If he softens, say something like, "This really touched you" or.... "I wish we had more moments like this one"

You'll be amazed at what starts to happen.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Is the man in the relationship doing the same for her? As long as it's a two way street, I totally agree with you.


Someone has to go first.

If we insist on I will if you will, neither will.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> Yes, during your first pm I was afraid to friend you on Facebook because I was afraid you were actually a man trying to trick me. After reading you for awhile and friending you I was happy to find you are exactly who you type you are. It's refreshing.


I just wanted to explain why I seeked you out on TAM, it goes back to this 1 thread you started about honesty, I sent you a PM way back then just saying "Hi", maybe you dont remember, but I thought to myself -that lady thinks JUST LIKE ME!! 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/16587-there-anyone-youre-honest.html 

Then I couldn't help but notice how much you stood up for Nice guys (I felt kind of alone on that), you had no qualms about taking BBW to task/challenging him a little, , I felt a kinship with you there, plus you are like me in the respect you desire alot of Attention from your husband. And your enjoyment of this board. 

So i thought, why not, we had an awful lot in common.


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> he is putting short, un-related negative comments directed at her and then everyone accuses her of being snarky.


NG! I think I was accusing YOU of things that Conrad had said! I apologize! Now I realize why you kept saying you only called me out once. NG, NG I hope you read this. Sorry!


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> And you'd be wrong to to think that. That's all.


How can I be wrong to feel something? You say "women" resent housework? Trust me when I tell you that I would resent having to puff up his ego with nonsense a whole lot more.

There is nothing wrong with appreciating even admiring for things worthy of appreciation or admiration. But the stuff about big mr strong hunky man meat? That's just silly.




> "Why doesn't a woman act like a woman that she is supposed to?"


Well I guess I would say to myself.... run screaming from this man since he seems to think he knows how *I* am supposed to act. I would be my bottom dollar that a man such as this would never listen to ME and learn about me. But instead expect me to be a pidgeon and fit in some hole.

My advice to you on the next go 'round would be not to chose anyone to bright, too highly educated or too liberal. Girls aren't all taught to flutter at mr man anymore.



> Women are supposed to admire their men and men are supposed to love their women.
> 
> It's the natural order of things.
> 
> Just like me pointing out when you are flawed in your thinking.


Well I suppose if you keep repeating it, you think it will increase my sense that it is true. You have asserted nothing compelling here except to repeat something undemonstrated. I continue to think you are wrong.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> I don't think he would be amused if I suddenly came home and said "I am not as smart as you". In fact, I think he would be repulsed. He cannot stand unintelligent women and patronizing him would be viewed as an insult....I think. I don't know though.


My husband would be exactly the same. He would say something like... why would I marry a stupid woman. I married you because you ARE smart.

I think Scannerguard's advice would work on some people, I suppose people like him. If your husband is anything like mine, if I took sg's advice to the letter, DH would have me in to the psych ward by the end of the day.


----------



## Mom6547

Conrad said:


> Someone has to go first.
> 
> If we insist on I will if you will, neither will.


Conrad is 150% right on this, in my opinion.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> You are a wise, wise man. My husband wants NOTHING more than for us to move on past the previous crap and move forward towards OUR new future. He called me 2 hours ago and said that he loved me and do I see a future with him? I had to think about that for a minute as my anger got the best of me. I told him I would call him back. I then went in to the bathroom and cried for 20 minutes. The most cathartic cry I think I have ever had. I called him back and said "Yes".


That’s good Brennan, seriously good. Those types of tears are a cleansing type of tears. They clean something out inside of us and afterwards we get an inner peace and relaxation. I think it to do with the lymphatic system suddenly releasing something inside us that shouldn’t be there. I think of them as tears of solace, they could have been a long time coming.

Depends how far you want to go. You may want to tell your husband you’ve forgiven him unconditionally. If you do and you really mean it you may get a big emotional response.

Bob


----------



## Mom6547

On the natural order of things... That men are *supposed* to act one way and women another.

It seems to me that if this were the case, there are a LOT of people acting outside of the natural order. One need only look to gay and lesbian people. While many a christian would like to tell you that homosexual behavior is outside the natural order, there is too much evidence within the animal kingdom of homosexual behavior to believe that that is true. Some scientists suggest that homosexual behavior is nature's built in population control mechanism.

I am pretty sure that no one would suggest that the behavior of a gut worm is anything but within the realm of what nature intended, if nature was sentient and had intention. 

So I am not buying the natural order business.


----------



## Scannerguard

> Trust me when I tell you that I would resent having to puff up his ego with nonsense a whole lot more.


Oh, I agree with that. Like some women resent having sex with their husband. Or they resent he didn't do this, didn't do that years ago.

When it comes to resentment and opinions surrounding what caused that resentment, the XX genotype is stuff that legends are made of.

I totally believe you are capable of developing resentment in having to please your husband with admiration, if it were mandated.

You don't have to sell me on that.



> It seems to me that if this were the case, there are a LOT of people acting outside of the natural order. One need only look to gay and lesbian people. While many a christian would like to tell you that homosexual behavior is outside the natural order, there is too much evidence within the animal kingdom of homosexual behavior to believe that that is true. Some scientists suggest that homosexual behavior is nature's built in population control mechanism.
> 
> I am pretty sure that no one would suggest that the behavior of a gut worm is anything but within the realm of what nature intended, if nature was sentient and had intention.
> 
> So I am not buying the natural order business.


There is some latin name for this flaw of logic

argumentum ad verecundiam - 

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Scientists opining on matters of philosophy don't sway me one way or the other.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> I totally believe you are capable of developing resentment in having to please your husband with admiration, if it were mandated.


MANDATED?!?! Ok I am going to ignore that you just implied I am just a *****y woman. Well no I am not.


> Scientists opining on matters of philosophy don't sway me one way or the other.



Nature is a matter of science. But then you don't WANT to be swayed because then you would be just another sexist dork.


----------



## Scannerguard

> My advice to you on the next go 'round would be not to chose anyone to bright, too highly educated or too liberal. Girls aren't all taught to flutter at mr man anymore.


I think that's good advice (although I am positive your advice is not offered in a spirit of kindness but rather sarcasm and an attempt at insult). Some other man can date a PhD or a MS/MA/MBA and have stimulating discussion into Alzheimers with her.

The next time I definitely not seeking an opinionated woman. It's okay at first, kinda stimulating, but after awhile, it becomes unattractive when your woman starts having opinions on everything from Aardvarks to Zebras. I just want to drink my beer as she talks.

It's not so much that the volume of opinions or the variety of opinions that gets to me as much as opinionated women take themselves wayyyyyy too seriously. I have a volume of opinions but I don't take them as nearly as seriously as opinionated women do.

I'd rather have fun and connection than intellectual stimulation.

If I want intellectual stimulation, there's the internet.

Oh. . .I was the first one doing the "implying?"

Turnabout is fairplay, Vthomeschoolmom.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> I think that's good advice (although I am positive your advice is not offered in a spirit of kindness but rather sarcasm and an attempt at insult).


Of course it is. I bear you no ill will. Why would I? 

I think the only thing ANYONE can do is try to find someone with whom they agree on the big stuff. I wonder if you live down south. I think you are more likely to find a woman who agrees with you in the south than up here in New England.



> I just want to drink my beer as she talks.


Good luck! I hear that religious, particularly fundamental christians are good for that. But I further hear they tend to be persnickity in the bedroom. But I don't know any personally.



> Oh. . .I was the first one doing the "implying?"
> 
> Turnabout is fairplay, Vthomeschoolmom.


I didn't imply. I called you a neanderthal to your face.


----------



## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just wanted to explain why I seeked you out on TAM, it goes back to this 1 thread you started about honesty, I sent you a PM way back then just saying "Hi", maybe you dont remember, but I thought to myself -that lady thinks JUST LIKE ME!!
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/16587-there-anyone-youre-honest.html
> 
> Then I couldn't help but notice how much you stood up for Nice guys (I felt kind of alone on that), you had no qualms about taking BBW to task/challenging him a little, , I felt a kinship with you there, plus you are like me in the respect you desire alot of Attention from your husband. And your enjoyment of this board.
> 
> So i thought, why not, we had an awful lot in common.


Love that you are who you are and love that we connected.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I didn't imply. I called you a neanderthal to your face.


heh


----------



## Scannerguard

Vthomeschoolmom:

I am not sure what your beef is with Christians (fundamental or otherwise) that you felt compelled to interject *that *into the discussion (yes, I know from past threads you hate Catholic doctrine/Catholics. . .I don't even subscribe to all, maybe most, of it - I just study it, am educated on it, and am fascinated by it if you are labeling me fundamentalist; I label myself as an Intelligent Designer if you need a quick label).

If you need to insult people (directly or implied) or persons to try assert your viewpoint, it denotes your position is very weak and you are simply getting all female-emotional with the subject, rather than just finding my opinion interesting and exploring it, like Brennan did.

The fact you overreacted to my Neanderthallness tells me that I think you just need to go draw a bubble bath, have a melon Wine Cooler, paint your toenails and you'll be just fine. You can even have a good cry in there and just get it all out. You see. . .if I were a Neanderthal, I wouldn't understand women so much like I do.

And in the future, try not to concern yourself so much with these subjects and explore more appropriate subjects. . .like the color of the living room drapes matching the furniture and how to get that ugly stain out of the carpet.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Alright guys....I took a step in the RIGHT direction and it felt great. Had a soccer game today. Hubbie is coach. He has been getting alot of **** from one irate set of parents and I just got fed up with it. They snicker and ***** on the sidelines and don't do a damn thing in a sense of volunteering or offering any constructive criticism, they just play armchair quarterback and have for years. After the game I walked up to both the Mom and Dad and told them in no uncertain terms that my husband is a wonderful coach, admired by his players, admired by the other parents and volunteers his time doing this and has for 9 years and what the hell have they ever done to contribute. I then told them if they think they can do better, then next year they are free to start their own team and give it a go. That shut them up really quickly and an apology came next. I told them that there is no sense in apologizing to me, it is HIM you owe it to. I had no idea but my husband heard the entire thing. They did apologize to him and before we hopped in the car, he spun me around, grabbed me and gave me a huge hug. He said "you were awesome out there, thank you" and he had a huge smile on his face.


----------



## Scannerguard

There ya go! How proactive of you!

The only thing I could have added was telling them all he could kick your husbands ass any day of the week and twice on Tuesday and pointed to his arms saying, "Meet the Sherriff" and then to his other arm, "And this is his deputy!"

But. . .had you done that, he may have been escorting you to the bubble bath to soak


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Vthomeschoolmom:
> 
> I am not sure what your beef is with Christians (fundamental or otherwise) that you felt compelled to interject *that *into the discussion (yes, I know from past threads you hate Catholic doctrine/Catholics. ...


I don't hate anyone. My only real beef with fundamentalist christians is that they vote.



> If you need to insult people (directly or implied) or persons to try assert your viewpoint,


This is the end of my conversation with you. I was not insulting anyone. I converse with other home schoolers. Among the fundamentalist christians, it is part of some of their doctrine to be submissive to the husband. Since that is what you sound like you like, that is what 

I don't know why you want attribute nasty motives to me. God FORBID you should take my words as written.

Peace. I am done with you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Scannerguard said:


> You see. . .if I were a Neanderthal, I wouldn't understand women so much like I do.


 I want to put in a  for Scanner here. We've had a few conversations in the past, he is a Good hearted guy, even humble sometimes! He seriously means no harm. I think he understands women for the most part, very well.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
These parents are real jerks and after every game the Dad walks up to my husband and tells him everything he did wrong. Hubbie stands his ground but doesn't ever fire back, which I think has allowed this to continue. I in essence stood up for him and I think this will help him the future in dealing with these idiots. There are alot of things I admire about my husband (as I have posted) and his dedication and ability to lead is one of them. I'll be damned if two non-contributors question those qualities in him. Grrrr. And yes, I wanted to slap the taste our of her smirking mouth. LOL.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I converse with other home schoolers. Among the fundamentalist christians, it is part of some of their doctrine to be submissive to the husband.


Oh I KNOW what you are talking about here, you R definetly in the minority of Moms who Home school -being outside the Faith. I know alot of home schooling Moms, this is a trend at my Church-that I barely go too. I met a Mom who homeschoold that was an Atheist, we had a great conversation about the things she deals with -with the fundamentalists.


----------



## Scannerguard

Brennan,

I think the lesson here to be learned was that I had a point (maybe I am not entirely right in my position (no actually, I think I am  ) but just had a point) entirely that you did something that Southern Women and Asian women seem to understand intuitively or are raised that way culturally (I am from Joisey/PA BTW):

*You stood by your man.*

Vthomeschoolmom says women aren't raised that way and yes, I do beleive that is correct.

Too bad then; mothers are failing their daughters then (and I would say this falls 80% to moms - a mom showing admiration for dad is a great model).

Men can say they don't like that, that they don't respond to it, and I am oh-so-Modern and my husband is oh-so-Modern but I don't buy it any more than a Woman who says she doesn't want the door held for her and for a chair to be held for her. (in that a Southern gentlemen may understand women better).

I think this is a huge miscommunication of the sexes.

You are looking for "love", right? So you *assume *that your guy is looking for love too,right? In fact, you kind of roll your emotional dice on it and it comes up craps. No, he is looking for admiration. We don't seek the same thing for some reason, a gender difference, but the love will springforth from the admiration you give him.

And this may become a case of "Where you fake it until you make it." Yes, it will seem contrived at first but I bet you actually start having these feelings in due time. Like when you put on a new outfit and change your outward appearance, you start to feel better about yourself. You transform from the outside in.

If you examine failed relationships and successful ones (like SA's and Greenpearl), these are women who exist in awe of their husbands, who may really just be kinda average guys to you or me, a guy who is a tire salesman or something. But. . .but. . .I bet they are like Sally Brown around the house with them, hearts coming out and it's genuine.

In my failed relationship, it was yearrrrrssss since I remember her expressing any admiration for me other than, "He's a good father" And after awhile that just seemed to be a line like, "You suck but here's a consolation prize. . .you're a good parent - you know how to change a diaper.

But I don't think of you like a man."

Now I know what I want in a woman.

Are SA's and Greenpearls' marriage's perfect? I really doubt it. But they seem strongly founded.

I think you may have some direction and some foundation for rebuilding. Now if you give and give admiration and don't get love back, at least a little. . .then the ball's in his court IMO and we'd have to see what's up with him. But the hug in the car was a great sign IMO.

Circle around. . .try again.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

The book I ordered for hubbie arrived a few hours ago. "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I told him that I had ordered it a few days ago, not certain he would even look at it. He is reading it right now! 
I have ordered "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" for me and will read it when it arrives.
Just in reading the preview to that book, it left me with so many questions. In essence it states that men are simple creatures and women are emotional/overthink certain things.....again that was my take from the preview. Are men really that simple? I have heard men are happy with a beer and a bj and while I know that's a joke, it gives me pause. Maybe he IS that kind of guy but doesn't know that yet. He seems way more complicated to me than I am. So my question is: what makes a guy tick? I don't mean what makes him happy in a marriage but rather what gets his gears going, sort of speak? I am certain it is different for all men but wouldn't there be some sort of common denominator?


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Alright guys....I took a step in the RIGHT direction and it felt great. Had a soccer game today. Hubbie is coach. He has been getting alot of **** from one irate set of parents and I just got fed up with it. They snicker and ***** on the sidelines and don't do a damn thing in a sense of volunteering or offering any constructive criticism, they just play armchair quarterback and have for years. After the game I walked up to both the Mom and Dad and told them in no uncertain terms that my husband is a wonderful coach, admired by his players, admired by the other parents and volunteers his time doing this and has for 9 years and what the hell have they ever done to contribute. I then told them if they think they can do better, then next year they are free to start their own team and give it a go. That shut them up really quickly and an apology came next. I told them that there is no sense in apologizing to me, it is HIM you owe it to. I had no idea but my husband heard the entire thing. They did apologize to him and before we hopped in the car, he spun me around, grabbed me and gave me a huge hug. He said "you were awesome out there, thank you" and he had a huge smile on his face.


Now multiply that kind of exchange (between you and him) by 20 times a week and you can see how turning the tide actually starts to look easy.

I used to say to my ex, "You know what makes me sad? We aren't all that far away from being exactly where we need to be."

In any given moment or interaction you can move closer to, or further away from your partner.

This is exactly the kind of little thing that offsets all of those corrosive little things that we talked about before.

Good for you. Feels good, doesn't it?


----------



## AFEH

Scanner, personally I think it’s going a bit overboard to talk of admiration. I think of admiration as being idealising and idolising. Bit like the admiration a person may have for Nelson Mandela, Gandhi etc. We can admire them from afar, we don’t live with them. And because we don’t live with them we don’t live with their faults, don’t even know their faults, so we can admire them from what we do know about the good in them and what they’ve done with that good.

Living with someone we know both their good side and bad side, which surely everyone on the planet has, including Nelson Mandela and Ghandi. I’m much more in tune with “appreciation”, it truly is nice to be appreciated by our wife for what we do for them, what we give to them. Without that appreciation then we don’t feel valued and if we don’t feel valued we don’t feel loved, no matter how many times we’re told “I love you”, “I do you love”, “I’m in love with you” etc. The I love you's come down to meaningless words.

Without the recognition of what we do for our wives by them telling us what they appreciate us for then we feel insecure in the marriage. It’s as though we have no value for them and if we have no value we can be dropped at any time.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
It did feel great, well maybe not as great as slapping the taste out of their mouths but still good. 
I just posted a question and am curious about your thoughts? Are men really THAT simple? I think my husband is alot more complicated than me, but maybe that's delusion talking. LOL.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I really think you are on to something here. I think my husband would prefer appreciation rather than admiration. I think. For me, Scanner mentions love for women and admiration for men but rather than tell me you love me (which hubbie does often), I would prefer appreciation. It is an action vs. word sort of thing. I am however going to try all things to get this right. I don't think my husband wants to be put up on a pedestal by me....but I could be totally wrong on that. I do think that my actions today might have shown a bit of both though, appreciation AND admiration. So I am not sure which one meant the most. I don't even know if HE knows which meant the most.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Alright guys....I took a step in the RIGHT direction and it felt great. Had a soccer game today. Hubbie is coach. He has been getting alot of **** from one irate set of parents and I just got fed up with it. They snicker and ***** on the sidelines and don't do a damn thing in a sense of volunteering or offering any constructive criticism, they just play armchair quarterback and have for years. After the game I walked up to both the Mom and Dad and told them in no uncertain terms that my husband is a wonderful coach, admired by his players, admired by the other parents and volunteers his time doing this and has for 9 years and what the hell have they ever done to contribute. I then told them if they think they can do better, then next year they are free to start their own team and give it a go. That shut them up really quickly and an apology came next. I told them that there is no sense in apologizing to me, it is HIM you owe it to. I had no idea but my husband heard the entire thing. They did apologize to him and before we hopped in the car, he spun me around, grabbed me and gave me a huge hug. He said "you were awesome out there, thank you" and he had a huge smile on his face.


You quite literally demonstrated to your husband and the others just how very much you APPRECIATE what he does for the team. The fact you did it not directly to your husband but to a third party while at the same time standing up for him greatly multiplies the affect of your appreciation to your husband. It’s magically coincidently that he overheard you. And yes that is the response that you will get for genuinely appreciating your husband. And you’ll get more and he’ll walk taller and be very happy deeply inside.

You couldn’t have faked that level of appreciation, it was truly genuine and your husband knows it.

Resentment has exactly the opposite effect of appreciation. Resentment and appreciation are polar opposites. Resentment is demotivating, appreciation is motivating. Resentment is the dark side, appreciation the light side. Resentment is hate, appreciation is love.

I’m so pleased for you Brennan.

Bob


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I really think you are on to something here. I think my husband would prefer appreciation rather than admiration. I think. For me, Scanner mentions love for women and admiration for men but rather than tell me you love me (which hubbie does often), I would prefer appreciation. It is an action vs. word sort of thing. I am however going to try all things to get this right. I don't think my husband wants to be put up on a pedestal by me....but I could be totally wrong on that. I do think that my actions today might have shown a bit of both though, appreciation AND admiration. So I am not sure which one meant the most. I don't even know if HE knows which meant the most.


Yes it’s a tricky one.
Admire: to respect and approve of someone or their behaviour.
Appreciate: to recognise or understand that something is valuable, important or as described.

Maybe admiration is for the person as a whole? Appreciation is for the individual things they do for us?

“I really admire my husband because he will not do anything to compromise his credibility and integrity. I know where I stand with him and because of that our marriage is authentic”. “I really appreciate my husband for nursing me and taking really good care of me when I was ill”.

Mute points? Semantics?

Bob


----------



## Scannerguard

No, I don't think I am going overboard with admiration. If you scroll back, way back, I did say appreciation was good too. I am not poo-pooing it at all. Yes, by all means show appreciation.

But I think women respond to and need appreciation more than men. I think men for the most part know we are supposed to do what we do, do our duty and don't expect as much gratitude as a woman expects. And that's okay. . .that's why we are different.

That's why you don't see wounded vets expected to see a thanks everyday. There is a stronger sense of just doing things for the sake of duty.

Given a choice between seeing your woman happy and in a good mood and her showing you appreciation, we'd take the good mood. Now, admiration, we'd go for that, maybe even over good mood.

Beleive me, I am NOT saying that once in awhile a little appreciation isn't warranted. 

Nobody wants to be totally unappreciated.

But again, to be repetitive, I am specifically talking admiration (which yes taken out to the extreme is idoltry)

And the difference is maybe slight between appreciation and admiration but I think it's an important one for meditation.

As far as what makes guys tick, yes, it's pretty simple and when you come down to it, the PhD in Philosophy ain't that much different than beer swilling ditch digger. And get this. . .the ditchdigger who swills beer ain't that much different than the PhD in philosophy when it comes to "masculinity."

This is why you will see a PhD drinking with a ditchdigger sometimes whereas women socially stratify themselves more. Woman are capable of more wonderous variety. Men are more fairly uniform. Even our formal dress indicates that - suit and tux, that's it. Women though - they have dresses of all different colors and fashion. The only difference in men is a little more education will have him express himself better.

But at the end of the day, we drink beer, watch football and fart.

Yes, I would definitely keeping entertaining the idea your hubby is simple.

This is not to be confused with a simpleton.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Thank you, Bob!
I ordered a book and will read it when it arrives. I also know that there are two paths I can take: be angry and resent or let go and move forward. He literally has told me "let's forget about the past and move forward". I doubt he will ever forget the hurt I caused him (again, no infidelity but lot's of verbal stuff) however he is able to move forward. I find myself stuck and I have so many "triggers" if you will about things. A commercial can come on the television and the first thought in my head is "He never did that for me". I know that sounds ridiculous but it kind of sends me right back to square one. I know resentment is a choice. I need to make the choice to let go and I think I have. It will be very difficult to put it in to action. What I really need is that device from the movie Men in Black that zaps your mind of past memories or in my case, painful ones as I would like to keep the good ones. I wish that device existed. LOL.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
Do you think hubbie saw appreciation from me or admiration from me today? 

Secondly, your post about what makes a man tick didn't clear things up for me. My take away from it was essentially that men will drink with anybody, yet women are more picky. It didn't really clarify anything for me. Any more insight?


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Thank you, Bob!
> I ordered a book and will read it when it arrives. I also know that there are two paths I can take: be angry and resent or let go and move forward. He literally has told me "let's forget about the past and move forward". I doubt he will ever forget the hurt I caused him (again, no infidelity but lot's of verbal stuff) however he is able to move forward. I find myself stuck and I have so many "triggers" if you will about things. A commercial can come on the television and the first thought in my head is "He never did that for me". I know that sounds ridiculous but it kind of sends me right back to square one. I know resentment is a choice. I need to make the choice to let go and I think I have. It will be very difficult to put it in to action. What I really need is that device from the movie Men in Black that zaps your mind of past memories or in my case, painful ones as I would like to keep the good ones. I wish that device existed. LOL.


“I doubt he will ever forget the hurt I caused him” surely that’s projection Brennan. Because you never forget the hurt he caused you, you assume he will never forget the hurt you caused him. That is psychological projection. It’s unhealthy, it’s not seeing the person for who they really are, it’s not letting them be, in your head, who they really are.

You could ask your husband “Do you ever dwell on the hurt I caused you". He sounds like a really good guy and one who will give you an honest answer. You may be surprised by his answer. Most men are forward thinkers and planners. We’re so busy looking into the future and planning we just don’t have time to dwell on the past. That stuff comes at MLC time.

I don’t think anybody actually forgets very much in their life. Look at hypnosis, under hypnosis all sorts of memories can be recalled. Look at photographs of when you were a child and you will recall things you have “forgotten”. But they weren’t forgotten were they? They were just waiting there to be recalled from long term memory into short term memory.

The difference in two people when they look back is one just sees the good things and the other just sees the bad things. I know which one I prefer to be. It’s seriously not good to dwell on past offences and mistakes, not good at all. Write down everything you are resentful for. Take a personal pledge of forgiveness, go out into the garden and set light to the paper and then forget about it.

Bob


----------



## Scannerguard

Bob,

I think you were right on with the last post.

Brennan:

I don't know, probably a little bit of both. Probably your content of your diatribe when you flew off the handle showed appreciation of his volunteerism and activism in his kid's life, but your emotion during your diatribe (finger wagging, arm waving, whatever you did) made him feel admiration, you know?

When he sees and feels the emotion, he's probably thinking, "Wow, she really loves (admires) me. Yeah, about damn time! Yeah, I got it!!!"

You see, to the guy, ADMIRATION is LOVE. Of course it isn't but it feels that way to us. Just like sex feels like love to us. But we know it isn't.

Remember, it's biological, the natural order of things. . .men want to strut and posture and be admired. Are we all fluff? 90%. That's why male animals in the animal kingdom go through all the song and dance but 90% of the time it doesn't come to blows. The one who postures wins and the other flies away to posture for another day.

You are allowing him to "posture" by rightfully humiliating the chuckleheaded parents.

Him Coach.

You Chuckleheaded Parents.

Know thy place.

You don't have to overanalyze it though. . .you can accept AFEH's interpretation or mine. . .just do ATW. . .Anything That Works.

I'll be interested in the 2nd and 3rd time. I'd wait 3-4 days and then do something smaller. Then 3-4 days later. . .jump his bones, LOL.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
What I was trying to say is that despite the fact that he won't forget, he will forgive. I am however stuck at the forgiving part. I know I need to, I just don't know how. I am not a forgiving person at all and I freely admit that. Is that healthy? No. I guess the more appropriate statement to make would be that I can forgive if someone is genuine in their apology and actions. He has apologized many many times but his actions don't back it up. So I go back to square one. Having said that, I think he is showing some action. Reading this book (to me) shows action. A willingness to look within himself and figure out what is broken. As I mentioned, I have a book that I ordered and once it arrives I will read it cover to cover. I am trying to figure out our dynamic.


----------



## Scannerguard

> Secondly, your post about what makes a man tick didn't clear things up for me. My take away from it was essentially that men will drink with anybody, yet women are more picky. It didn't really clarify anything for me. Any more insight?


Yeah, I guess I was rambling there. . . correct of you to call me out onto the carpet on that one.

But could you narrow the question a little more about what makes us "tick?" You mean what makes us happy? What do we want out of life? What motivates us?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
I had to laugh at chucklehead! Besides "The Peanuts Gang" who uses that word anymore?!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
I think my question was a bit open for interpretation, sorry about that. I have thought about it some more and am changing my question: What makes a man happy in marriage? What are the true needs?


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> What I was trying to say is that despite the fact that he won't forget, he will forgive. I am however stuck at the forgiving part. I know I need to, I just don't know how. I am not a forgiving person at all and I freely admit that. Is that healthy? No. I guess the more appropriate statement to make would be that I can forgive if someone is genuine in their apology and actions. He has apologized many many times but his actions don't back it up. So I go back to square one. Having said that, I think he is showing some action. Reading this book (to me) shows action. A willingness to look within himself and figure out what is broken. As I mentioned, I have a book that I ordered and once it arrives I will read it cover to cover. I am trying to figure out our dynamic.


Well Brennan you may just be setting yourself up for a personality disorder. It’s called PTED Post Traumatic Embitterment Disorder. It’s being proposed by a German psychologist who’s been dealing with East Germans. It’s in the “extreme”, they are seriously embittered people.

Maybe there truly isn’t anything you can do about your bitterness and resentment for your husband and you will have PTED. Maybe you just can’t do it. My wife couldn’t with me. I came to see that her resentment was hard wired and that if she let go of it she simply wouldn’t know who she was anymore. She simply could not imagine herself living without her resentment for me. When I recognised and accepted that it was the end for me.

And just like me, maybe your husband will come to truly resent your resentment. And maybe just like me it will be the end for him as well. When a man like me makes up his mind, there is absolutely no going back. Why? Because he’s far happier without a bitter and resentful wife by his side.

Bob
PS: I got no appologies from my wife for her offences against me. I still forgave because that's who I am and how I like to do things.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,
I think there is a difference between wanting to let go of resentment and not. I WANT to. So my question is, how do I do this? Is there a 12 step program? Books?


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I think there is a difference between wanting to let go of resentment and not. I WANT to. So my question is, how do I do this? Is there a 12 step program? Books?


I'm learning to focus more on the present and less on the past. A lot of it has been a matter of being busier - I don't have the time to sit around and fret about things lately.

Also, focus on what forgiveness will do for YOU. When you are angry with someone, YOU carry that burden - not them. And that anger takes a toll on you.

Forgiveness will take place inside your own head and your own heart. You don't even *have* to say anything to him.

Just skimming today - but one thing about what happened at the ball game was that you not only showed your love to him, but you did it in front of other people. What a great opportunity - and really awesome that you took advantage of it!!!

(VT - saw your post - no problems...)


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I got Sunflowers!!!!!! Hubbie came back from the florist with our son's corsage for his gf (tonight is homecoming) and I got my favorite flower!!!!


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> I think there is a difference between wanting to let go of resentment and not. I WANT to. So my question is, how do I do this? Is there a 12 step program? Books?


Hi Brennan,
There’s links below to websites about resentment and how to overcome it. They all say resentment is a marriage killer and the way to overcome it is through forgiveness. If you Google “marriage "overcome resentment"” or other phrases I think that’s what you are going to find. If you find something else perhaps you’ll let me know.

If you can’t forgive then you just can’t forgive. My wife and mil (note the lower case, I don’t like that woman at all lol) are like that. My wife’s mother as an 80 year old would talk with extreme embitterment about things that happened when she was 7. Can believe that? Her sister flew up from Australia to visit her and within an hour of getting together mil started tearing into her about something that happened 40 years ago!

I was truly amazed just how concrete reinforced with iron bars these things were in my wife’s psyche, truly amazed. It stunned me. She took the choice when I gave it to her as an ultimatum to hold onto her resentment rather than stay with the man she said she loved. I don’t think she believed for one minute that I wouldn’t try and get her back.

How to Overcome Resentment

Handling Resentment | LIVESTRONG.COM

Forgiving Your Spouse | My Distant Love

http://ezinearticles.com/?3-Ways-to-Get-Rid-of-Resentment-in-Your-Marriage&id=4267800

Resentful Feelings Can Ruin Your Marriage | Olive Articles - The Best Article Directory


----------



## AFEH

Brennan, I’ve given up on the resentment and forgiving with you. Not you’re getting it. Maybe someone else can help you out. I hope for you and your family you get there.

Magical with the flowers.

Bob


----------



## Scannerguard

You see? Now is the time to soften your heart.

He brought you flowers.

That's how you get out of resentment. . .soften your heart. I think you need to retrace. . .once the resentment is gone, they'll be the original hurt there but now you can talk about your hurt and heal. I mean, not dwell on it - but talk about it for an hour or two or however long and then move on. Just don't go backwards back into resentment.

I know Dr. Phil says a lot, "To get to forgiveness, you have to acknowledge."

If he's not acknowledging how he hurt you, then he needs to do that. After he acknowledges and comprehends, then he can ask for forgiveness and then the ball is in your court entirely.

Has he asked to be forgiven and acknowledged his wrongs?

But you know, sometimes we can all psychobabble away here but this may be better punted to a member of the clergy - a priest, minister or rabbi. 

They specialize in the subject of forgiveness and sometimes a faith-based intervention can really help - to realize and beleive there is actually something greater out there than you, than even both of you. That can help you heal.

If you have a pastor, why don't you give him a call? Just like doctors they know that men don't like to go but if he's been at it awhile, they are used to the brush-off, if your hubby wouldn't be up for it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
Odd that you mention church. We met in church, at 9. We loved that church. We married in that church, both boys were baptized in that church. We moved away and haven't found anything even close to that....so we stopped looking. We haven't set foot in a church in 12 years despite us having deep religious beliefs. We are Lutheran, so it's pretty relaxed to begin with but it was a sanctuary if you will being there. My husband also feels this loss. It was a safe haven (for us) filled with love and peace and tolerance. 
Maybe I am fooling myself in to thinking we can find this kind of sanctuary again. Where we live, "mega churches" rule. It's disgusting. And a tax haven.


----------



## Scannerguard

Yeah, no doubt church is big business and I winced a little as I wrote that - throwing you two out to the "wolves" so to speak.

I don't know what to say other than it's your marriage, your spirituality - you don't like a pastor or church, take your business elsewhere.

I think there is a balance between a Mega-Church and a small church. If you get too small of a church with a great pastor, it's all personality dependent. .. go too big and it just seems like you are part of a conglomerate, putting in time and money to support the institution.

A mid-sized church with a few spiritual leaders to choose from is probably best for you and your husband based on what I know of Lutherans.

If you guys miss it, you probably need to get back to it. Maybe you'll luck out on a local Lutheran church.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Scanner,
> Odd that you mention church. We met in church, at 9. We loved that church. We married in that church, both boys were baptized in that church. We moved away and haven't found anything even close to that....so we stopped looking. We haven't set foot in a church in 12 years despite us having deep religious beliefs. We are Lutheran, so it's pretty relaxed to begin with but it was a sanctuary if you will being there. My husband also feels this loss. It was a safe haven (for us) filled with love and peace and tolerance.
> Maybe I am fooling myself in to thinking we can find this kind of sanctuary again. Where we live, "mega churches" rule. It's disgusting. And a tax haven.


There are Lutheran forums, here’s an extract from one of them on resentment …

“Oh it is so much simpler then that, who's side are you on, satans or Gods, satan is the accuser, you hold a grudge, cant forgive then you are on satanbs side, for He can go to God abs say, so and so has sinned, then if God says, no they have not, well satan just says, oh but i have proof, so an so has not forgiven them, now if you really are a christian, then you would go to Jesus and ask GHim to help you forgive the person, no matter how hard it is, because you wont want to be standing in front of Him, when He might say, Why should I forgive you when you havnt forgiven so an so. Just read teh Lord prayer.

Forgive us as we forgive...

In His Love”

Here’s the link … What are the parameters of forgiveness?.

Bob


----------



## Scannerguard

The more I think about it, the more I think the two of you are good candidates for faith-based assistance.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Anybody want to take a stab at the question I posed? What makes a man happy in a relationship/marriage?


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Anybody want to take a stab at the question I posed? What makes a man happy in a relationship/marriage?


Who’s the man you have in mind lol?

I could tell you what made me happy in my marriage and that would the same as telling you why I was in love with my wife … and what made me sad.

But I’m a very different man to your husband. One man’s meat is another man’s poison and all that. The only way to know what your husband’s meat is, well to ask him.

I’m guessing he’ll answer you honestly which can be difficult to do depending on what the two of you have been through. It’s also kind of dropping his guard making himself vulnerable for “withdrawal” of what he likes. She that giveth can also take away kind of thing. So it can be a delicate thing, just depends where you two are at.

You wont get anywhere until you’re rid of your resentment. While you’ve got that and he knows you’ve got it he is highly unlikely to make himself vulnerable to you. I reckon you both have your guards up and therefore cannot be truly vulnerable to one another. Not good that.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Anybody want to take a stab at the question I posed? What makes a man happy in a relationship/marriage?


Knowing without a doubt that your woman is into you. I don't care what you call it or how you express it.

This was the beginning of the end for me. Her inability or lack of desire to express admiration, appreciation, respect, love, passion, or plain old flirty playfulness. For me personally, laughter and playfulness is big. I suppose you might call it expressive joy. Joy, that here we are still doing what we do, and it can still make us joyful.

Replace all of those with their negative counterparts, expectation, disappointment, resentment, ambivalence, disrespect and malaise. It got to the point where it was impossible for me to feel happy about the relationship when the message I consistently got was associated with negativity.

Even where sex is concerned. If you can't be enthusiastic, passionately aggressive, or playful then don't bother. It ain't supposed to be a chore that you put up with. It's supposed to be something you desire to do ... that you desire to do with _me_. Make me feel like a hero in the bedroom, and I will march through the gates of Hell for you.

It just seems so obvious to me ... express and practice the emotions you want to cultivate in your partner. That's simply the way people work. And if your partner simply refuses to let the good in ... then you are wasting your time and your life


----------



## AFEH

See how we're all different. I just wanted a wife who'd give me a million pounds to leave her, now that would have made me really happy lol. Sorry Dejo, I know how serious this stuff is and somehow wish it wasn't.

No two men are the same, in the same way no two women are the same. We all have different values, beliefs and motivations. If 100 men were to get together and list their top 10 things that "make them happy" then sure there'd be a commonality somewhere.

But one persons top 10 items could be totally different to anothers top 10. And I reckon it's highly unlikely that two men's top 10 would be exactly the same and in exactly the same order of priority. That ain’t never going to happen unless it’s between identical twins.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I guess the question is a bit ridiculous. Everybody is different. I am however trying to find a common denominator among the responses. So far I think it is Love, Admiration and Respect. Hopefully I am not too off on that. 

One good point for me today is that my husband is on page 76 of No More Mr. Nice Guy and I am eagerly awaiting the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. I think both of us reading both those books will help us redefine our relationship.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Ok, what the heck is a "man trip"? In his reading this book it strongly suggests a trip by himself for up to a week. He says he is planning to do it yet doesn't know when and where yet. What is this all about?!


----------



## Scannerguard

A man trip is a trip by yourself (or maybe with 1 buddy) into the wilderness to be alone with your thoughts. A journey. A trek. An escape (this is what I imagine anyway).

Hunt some animal.

It's a cat thing, lol.

I personally like to go away and do 3 day fasts and be one with the ocean. Not really a hunting and fishing kind of guy. More a surfer dude/beach bum.

Anyway, yes - no man is alike but she is looking for generalizations here so I'll take a stab:

1. A woman in a good mood.

I know I am repeating myself (which makes it true  ) and I suppose this would be true of both sexes. Who wants to come home to a grump or a *****? But when a woman is in a good mood, a man loves it. It's such an aphrodesiac and immediately elevates his mood.

2. Sex

Yes, I think it's a fair generalization, esp. at our sexual peaks in our 20's and 30's. It's how we are able to feel love and feel human.

3. Some peace in the house.

A home is somewhat a retreat for guys, not really meant to be an expression of himself or anything. It's like where you hole up to recharge.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Scanner,
Thank you for clearing up the man trip. Did you read that book too? For some reason alot of the parts in that book have me nervous. Don't know why. 

I think in my husband's case, sex isn't as important as "physical touch", which I am really bad at. I have mentioned before that he had a terrible first experience that involved using the woman for nothing more than sex. She was a close friend of his and he hurt her terribly. He never got over that and now, he cannot separate love/emotion from sex....or rather, he choses not to. Perhaps his lack of a sex drive is wrapped around our relationship being rocky? 

Agree with you about the house. This is the one place he loves to be. We have worked hard to make it ours and have spent countless hours doing it ourselves. Paint, new flooring, new fence, french drain, you name it. I also think it is a source of pride for him although he would freely admit he didn't want to do any of that as he is NOT a DIY home repair kind of person. He wasn't raised that way, I was. I even have my own set of tools. LOL


----------



## Deejo

AFEH said:


> See how we're all different. I just wanted a wife who'd give me a million pounds to leave her, now that would have made me really happy lol. Sorry Dejo, I know how serious this stuff is and somehow wish it wasn't.
> 
> No two men are the same, in the same way no two women are the same. We all have different values, beliefs and motivations. If 100 men were to get together and list their top 10 things that "make them happy" then sure there'd be a commonality somewhere.
> 
> But one persons top 10 items could be totally different to anothers top 10. And I reckon it's highly unlikely that two men's top 10 would be exactly the same and in exactly the same order of priority. That ain’t never going to happen unless it’s between identical twins.
> 
> Bob


The question isn't ridiculous. Nor do I think that it needs to be all that serious. Different for everybody? No. Not the core stuff. And the core stuff is no where near 10 items. There are going to be shades of different with everyone. I used to buy the whole snowflake mantra when it came to people and relationships. But when you grab a handful of unique and individual snowflakes, what you are looking at and what you have to deal with in no uncertain terms ... is snow. It may be powdery, slushy, or icy but it's still snow. Keep it cold and it stays snow. Hold it in your hand for a while and it won't stay snow. It becomes something entirely different. No matter how unique, all of those snowflakes behave and react in very predictable ways. 

Just like people.

Desire is a core trait. We pursue relationships in the first place because of it. We emulate behaviors that we hope continue to make us desirable.

If anyone wants to sit there and tell me that they _don't_ desire or want to be desired by their partner, then I guess my question is, then what the hell are you bothering for?


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Scanner,
> 
> I have mentioned before that he had a terrible first experience that involved using the woman for nothing more than sex. She was a close friend of his and he hurt her terribly.


She lived. She grew. She got over it. She chose to give him sex, odds are he didn't make her do anything against her will, and here's the important piece that's easy to overlook when you're more comfortable basking in your own angst:
_She had sex with him to hold onto him, believing if she gave him what he wanted, he would stick around._ And that dear friends, is manipulation based on expectation.



> Perhaps his lack of a sex drive is wrapped around our relationship being rocky?


This wouldn't surprise me. We read about this scenario all the time, usually the genders are reversed with this behavior.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> I guess the question is a bit ridiculous. Everybody is different. I am however trying to find a common denominator among the responses. So far I think it is Love, Admiration and Respect. Hopefully I am not too off on that.
> 
> One good point for me today is that my husband is on page 76 of No More Mr. Nice Guy and I am eagerly awaiting the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. I think both of us reading both those books will help us redefine our relationship.


Respect is first.


----------



## Mom6547

SimplyAmorous said:


> I want to put in a  for Scanner here. We've had a few conversations in the past, he is a Good hearted guy, even humble sometimes! He seriously means no harm. I think he understands women for the most part, very well.


SOME women. God help the women who come here not fitting the typical stereotypes. They are going to get some crap advice.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> SOME women. God help the women who come here not fitting the typical stereotypes. They are going to get some crap advice.


Pro man, anti woman. As if I am supposed to believe making my dominant, strong man first will make for marital bliss. Nuh uh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## greenpearl

Around this world, there are a lot of irresponsible men, there are a lot of irresponsible women. 

There are also a lot of good men and women.

I feel sad for those women whose husbands abuse them, mistreat them, and cheat on them. 

I feel bad that a lot of good men are being taken advantage of by their goodness. 

I am not with either side.

I side with people who are responsible and who know how to be men and women.


----------



## Trenton

Welcome Back GreenPearl


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Welcome Back GreenPearl


Thank you, Trenton!

Life in jail is actually not bad.

Very peaceful and pleasant!

Learned a lot also.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Thank you, Trenton!
> 
> Life in jail is actually not bad.
> 
> Very peaceful and pleasant!
> 
> Learned a lot also.


Yes, I've learned as well. Seems I might have misjudged you. I hope you can forgive me for that and then we can move on. I pegged you as simplified and over enthusiastic towards men. Forgive my assumptions but please appreciate my honesty.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Yes, I've learned as well. Seems I might have misjudged you. I hope you can forgive me for that and then we can move on. I pegged you as simplified and over enthusiastic towards men. Forgive my assumptions but please appreciate my honesty.


Trenton,

I am very easy going. I am disappointed when people don't understand me. But how can people understand me just by reading a few of my posts, so I won't blame you. And I do like it a lot when you take the initiative to make up and let go of our disagreements. 

My father is a very selfish man. I was hurt a lot by his selfishness. When I was a teenage girl, my father told me that a daughter is like water poured on the ground when she gets married, there was no need to send me to school. I quit school not long after he told me this. For many times, my father cheated on my mother. It was like a sword stabbing my heart when my mother told me this. My mother is a very loving woman, but because of her unhappy marriage, she is very insecure and miserable, her only happiness is from her children, and she only finds protection from her children. Isn't this sad? A woman can't find any comfort from her man! I send money home every year because of my mother. I want my mother to have a good life. I have chosen to forgive my father, only by choosing to forgive him, I bring peace to my heart. I would still send him money if my mother passes away first. 

I see a lot of Chinese and Taiwanese women are being mistreated by their husbands. Cheating is so common in this world. When those men have some money, the first thing they do is to go out and look for women. In a city in China, women actually go to temples to pray that their men don't become rich. I see a lot of men are so wrapped in their business world, they tell their wives that they work hard for the family. Is that really the truth? Do women really want their men to stay out day and night? The men are working hard so they feel great among men. We want love, we want attention, we want time, we want our husbands. 

Very often men don't understand their women, women don't understand their men. Actually the sad part is that a lot of people don't know what can really make them happy. They are looking for the wrong direction!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I am very easy going. I am disappointed when people don't understand me. But how can people understand me just by reading a few of my posts, so I won't blame you. And I do like it a lot when you take the initiative to make up and let go of our disagreements.
> 
> My father is a very selfish man. I was hurt a lot by his selfishness. When I was a teenage girl, my father told me that a daughter is like water poured on the ground when she gets married, there was no need to send me to school. I quit school not long after he told me this. For many times, my father cheated on my mother. It was like a sword stabbing my heart when my mother told me this. My mother is a very loving woman, but because of her unhappy marriage, she is very insecure and miserable, her only happiness is from her children, and she only finds protection from her children. Isn't this sad? A woman can't find any comfort from her man! I send money home every year because of my mother. I want my mother to have a good life. I have chosen to forgive my father, only by choosing to forgive him, I bring peace to my heart. I would still send him money if my mother passes away first.
> 
> I see a lot of Chinese and Taiwanese women are being mistreated by their husbands. Cheating is so common in this world. When those men have some money, the first thing they do is to go out and look for women. In a city in China, women actually go to temples to pray that their men don't become rich. I see a lot of men are so wrapped in their business world, they tell their wives that they work hard for the family. Is that really the truth? Do women really want their men to stay out day and night? The men are working hard so they feel great among men. We want love, we want attention, we want time, we want our husbands.
> 
> Very often men don't understand their women, women don't understand their men. Actually the sad part is that a lot of people don't know what can really make them happy. They are looking for the wrong direction!


That is sad. Culture can sometimes be vicious to the sexes and to our humanity. Happiness is illusive for sure. In American culture we are inundated with media that dictates what should make us happy. It is hard to recognize that something is wrong when so many believe it is right in your society. I guess it comes down to courage and self discovery.

My husband works long hours from time to time. When he does we argue. When he doesn't things are great. He just got done with a week or so stretch of long hours that meant I whined and cried a lot but now his pitch is over and things are better again. I wish he could find balance. He knows I want him home as much as possible but I respect that he feels an obligation to provide for us. Life is difficult and beautiful both at the same time.

A lot of wisdom in your words.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> That is sad. Culture can sometimes be vicious to the sexes and to our humanity. Happiness is illusive for sure. In American culture we are inundated with media that dictates what should make us happy. It is hard to recognize that something is wrong when so many believe it is right in your society. I guess it comes down to courage and self discovery.
> 
> My husband works long hours from time to time. When he does we argue. When he doesn't things are great. He just got done with a week or so stretch of long hours that meant I whined and cried a lot but now his pitch is over and things are better again. I wish he could find balance. He knows I want him home as much as possible but I respect that he feels an obligation to provide for us. Life is difficult and beautiful both at the same time.
> 
> A lot of wisdom in your words.


My husband always tells me if a lot of people think it is right to do, then we have to watch out. For example, a lot of people in the world now believe in " enjoy first, pay later", so a lot of people put themselves into debt. 

I remember there is a scripture in the Bible, it told us to choose the narrow road, not the big road. Maybe it is talking about finding our way to heaven, but I interpret it in a different way, We choose to walk on the narrow road, we choose to live a simple life. 

I can understand your husband's pressure as being a responsible husband and father for his family, and a responsible manager for his company. He is a responsible man. It is not easy for him when he has a lot to balance! It is good that he knows spending more time with you will make you happy. For that, as women, we are really the same. We want our men to be with us. 

So when they do have time with us, cherish every moment of it, make the best use of it! The more pleasant time they get to spend with us, the more they want to be with us!

Happy! For all of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## less_disgruntled

vthomeschoolmom said:


> SOME women. God help the women who come here not fitting the typical stereotypes. They are going to get some crap advice.



Well, I have to admit, i just read a post where a woman who said that she herself doesn't clean complained that her husband was a "wimp" for not "contributing" to the mess. When I see BS like that, I about blow a gasket, but then find myself wondering,

"Is it true? Does my wife think I'm less of a man because when she's not home and I need a clean saucepan to make myself food in I wash it?"

Because it sure would for a lot of women here... to border on misogyny, I think many of the women posting here are looking for men who will smack them around, but then will call the cops, then wonder why he's in jail and not being "man enough" to provide for the family. Then cry about how emotionally unavailable their husband is. Then post here wondering why he's doing a 15-year sentence and has a relationship with his cellmate, no wonder he beat her he was gay all along, I have proof b/c I caught him ironing his own shirt collars before he went to work one morning, OMG can I get a divorce etc. 

What I mean is that there's a lot of silliness here, but it helps to vent sometimes.

*Then* I start worrying about the crap I actually enable. Like letting her get a dog that she largely refuses to take responsibility for.


----------



## nice777guy

less_disgruntled said:


> Well, I have to admit, i just read a post where a woman who said that she herself doesn't clean complained that her husband was a "wimp" for not "contributing" to the mess. When I see BS like that, I about blow a gasket, but then find myself wondering,
> 
> "Is it true? Does my wife think I'm less of a man because when she's not home and I need a clean saucepan to make myself food in I wash it?"
> 
> *Then* I start worrying about the crap I actually enable. Like letting her get a dog that she largely refuses to take responsibility for.
> 
> Because it sure would for a lot of women here... to border on misogyny, I think many of the women posting here are looking for men who will smack them around, but then will call the cops, then wonder why he's in jail and not being "man enough" to provide for the family.


The stuff you enable - like the dog - may lead to a lack of respect. Or you may eventually become very resentful about doing things like this for her. Especially if this is an ongoing theme for you.

The women who want to be smacked around are generally in the sex forums.


----------



## less_disgruntled

nice777guy said:


> The stuff you enable - like the dog - may lead to a lack of respect. Or you may eventually become very resentful about doing things like this for her. Especially if this is an ongoing theme for you.


Yeah, I am naive in many ways and don't see these things ahead of time, like the dog. It's harder to tell what are things I'm enabling, what is just my wife's total self-absorbed-ness and what are things that come out of both of us having involved schedules. I don't see dirty dishes as a test of my masculinity and assertiveness... It feels to me like a lot of things are traps. You say "no" to something, and it's not being responsible or in control, it's being a callous *******. You don't understand the question and you have neurological problems. You say yes, and you're not "man enough". I do all three! Apparently I am a callous ******* who has some deep-seated psychiatric issues who is also completely emasculated! But then you act "manly", i.e., stone-faced and responsible, and it's back to being a neurologically-damaged ******* who is too unmanly to be married to.





> The women who want to be smacked around are generally in the sex forums.


I figured that, but judging by the attitudes around here I'd imagine they'd be like that girl I dated who complained b/c I didn't hit her enough.


----------



## Trenton

less_disgruntled said:


> Yeah, I am naive in many ways and don't see these things ahead of time, like the dog. It's harder to tell what are things I'm enabling, what is just my wife's total self-absorbed-ness and what are things that come out of both of us having involved schedules. I don't see dirty dishes as a test of my masculinity and assertiveness... It feels to me like a lot of things are traps. You say "no" to something, and it's not being responsible or in control, it's being a callous *******. You don't understand the question and you have neurological problems. You say yes, and you're not "man enough". I do all three! Apparently I am a callous ******* who has some deep-seated psychiatric issues who is also completely emasculated! But then you act "manly", i.e., stone-faced and responsible, and it's back to being a neurologically-damaged ******* who is too unmanly to be married to.
> 
> I figured that, but judging by the attitudes around here I'd imagine they'd be like that girl I dated who complained b/c I didn't hit her enough.


Women are moody or at least most are and so it makes us appear complicated. Men are fixers so I think sometimes they look at us like...just tell me how to fix it but the problem is that there is no solution.

I've done one worse than your wife in that I purchased a dog on impulse...spent $1,200 at the puppy store and then they wouldn't actually give me the dog because I used my husband's debit/visa card and our signatures didn't match. Later decided we didn't want the dog and I was a compulsive freak but they told us we had to have the dog. Months later we are out $1,200 and no dog. D'oh. Yeah, seriously, even I admit that I've done some stupid, stupid things.

We laugh about it now and re-tell it to friends and family as listen to the latest stupid thing Michele did...

I think each relationship is delicate and trying to pigeonhole yourself into a simple category or expecting a simple fix it attitude or dominant attitude to make everything good is wrong. Focusing on your spouse, communicating with your spouse and remembering your sense of humor are more important in my humble opinion but I'm just a woman so...


----------



## nice777guy

If you need to eat - wash a dish. Wash all of them if they're all dirty. Starving isn't real manly. 

Just don't cook dinner, clean the table, take care of the dog, AND wash the dishes while your wife chats on the phone or plays on Facebook.

That old GF of yours - that just ain't right.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

I, as a woman, do all the cleaning, cooking, washing, paying bills, running errands, taking care of all 3 cats, AND work a full-time 40 hour a week job (after already retiring from another job). Its the way I was raised, to take care of your family - does it make me weak and not one of my sisters - hell no - it makes me a good wife and mother IMO.

When the kids were young, I did ask for help, but didn't really get it as my husband is a macho-man and believed that inside work was a woman's - did it irritate me - yes, but outside is his and I don't have to do anything outside my front door (which is great, I hate yardwork).

So in my house the roles are definitely norm - inside woman, outside man. Works for us and I don't feel shortchanged - my mom did it, I'm doing it and my daughter was taught the same. I believe in woman's lib as much as anyone, but even I, as a woman believe there are some things that are inherently gender drive or gender specific. Call me old-fashioned, but...


----------



## Trenton

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I, as a woman, do all the cleaning, cooking, washing, paying bills, running errands, taking care of all 3 cats, AND work a full-time 40 hour a week job (after already retiring from another job). Its the way I was raised, to take care of your family - does it make me weak and not one of my sisters - hell no - it makes me a good wife and mother IMO.
> 
> When the kids were young, I did ask for help, but didn't really get it as my husband is a macho-man and believed that inside work was a woman's - did it irritate me - yes, but outside is his and I don't have to do anything outside my front door (which is great, I hate yardwork).
> 
> So in my house the roles are definitely norm - inside woman, outside man. Works for us and I don't feel shortchanged - my mom did it, I'm doing it and my daughter was taught the same. I believe in woman's lib as much as anyone, but even I, as a woman believe there are some things that are inherently gender drive or gender specific. Call me old-fashioned, but...


Are you happy? Isn't this nice guy syndrome reversed?


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Probably. I'm happy everywhere except our sex life and that's a whole other story.

But as far as taking care of my family and doing all those things - it makes me happy to take care of my family - I enjoy those "acts of service" if you will, they make me feel better.

My hubby is definitely spoiled, he'll even admit that.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> but I'm just a woman so...


Don't listen to her, and don't give her your debit card.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
Where's my spatula? 50 whacks!!


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Don't listen to her, and don't give her your debit card.


Yes, OK, I deserved that. heh


----------



## Trenton

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Probably. I'm happy everywhere except our sex life and that's a whole other story.
> 
> But as far as taking care of my family and doing all those things - it makes me happy to take care of my family - I enjoy those "acts of service" if you will, they make me feel better.
> 
> My hubby is definitely spoiled, he'll even admit that.


If you're happy I think that is the key. I'd think he'd be all over you since his needs are met but the fact that he isn't points even clearer to the whole nice guy syndrome in reverse.


----------



## greenpearl

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I, as a woman, do all the cleaning, cooking, washing, paying bills, running errands, taking care of all 3 cats, AND work a full-time 40 hour a week job (after already retiring from another job). Its the way I was raised, to take care of your family - does it make me weak and not one of my sisters - hell no - it makes me a good wife and mother IMO.
> 
> When the kids were young, I did ask for help, but didn't really get it as my husband is a macho-man and believed that inside work was a woman's - did it irritate me - yes, but outside is his and I don't have to do anything outside my front door (which is great, I hate yardwork).
> 
> So in my house the roles are definitely norm - inside woman, outside man. Works for us and I don't feel shortchanged - my mom did it, I'm doing it and my daughter was taught the same. I believe in woman's lib as much as anyone, but even I, as a woman believe there are some things that are inherently gender drive or gender specific. Call me old-fashioned, but...


I am doing a lot of the stuff you are doing too, I am happy, very happy that I am a responsible woman and I can make our life organized. My husband is also very happy that his wife is very organized.


----------

