# RT's Ultimate Affair Plan



## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

1. *Introduction*

Those that have experienced the trauma of an affair find it to be one of the most traumatic events of their lives. Both partners lives are instantly upended, as well as those immediately close to them, such as children. The betrayed/injured/rejected partner is left with their world no longer making sense to them, displaced by grief, anger, resentment, and sadness (2). The partners often engage in bitter disputes, sometimes physically so, as they deal with the immediate ramifications of the disclosure. But, what about the one that disclosed the affair? They suffer as well, with feelings of guilt, indignation, detachment, righteousness, sadness, fear, etc.

I am only concerned with what is proven to work, which is going to encompass what clinicians employ as they encounter infidelity in their practices Whether one disagrees with a specific approach, the reason behind it or has their own pet approach, we have to align ourselves with the published research, not because being a scientist makes them correct, but because the scientific method discovers what works and what doesn't. Bad research is addressed within the community of researchers, meaning that research evolves to correct upon the downfalls from previously published research and to introduce new hypotheses, which may end up as working theories. Good science implies asking a question, testing it and determining what the truth is.

A common theme throughout this thread will be tackling the following (1):


> Sexual fidelity is a normative assumption for most romantic relationships despite data suggesting that substantial numbers of persons in assumed monogamous relationships cheat.


I will introduce the reasoning behind the necessity for individuals to align themselves with objective reality, rather than with ideals (normative assumptions). In life, we have laws for how the world works. We can fight with all of our might, but we still cannot eliminate subdue the laws of physics, for example. We have only the option of working with immutable laws, meaning that we can receive the benefits, or reality can impose punishments. The target of this thread is the question, what are you going to do about it. Victimhood will be exposed for the punishments it imposes on individuals and what they may do about it; this is a very key element to the UAP. Much of the information will stem from CBT (various waves).

Throughout this thread, one will see the following:

A.)Why individuals cheat- I tripped/A Cry for Help
B.)Statistics
C.)Types of affairs
D.)Affair differences men/women (including perceptions)
E.)How to address an undisclosed affair (pre)
F.)How to address a disclosed affair (post)
G.)What NOT to do
H.)Understanding the betrayed
I.)Understanding the unfaithful
J.)Individual healing
K.)Understanding THE affair
L.)Rebuilding the relationship
M.)Boundaries
N.)Trust
O.)Choosing to end it
P.)Keeping it affair-proof
Q.)Preventing an affair
R.)Mindfulness
S.)Emotional Intelligence
T.)Victimhood
U.)Forgiveness
more may follow


-*Purpose*:

To compete with commonly held myths regarding infidelity, and to generally educate. The only thing that matters is that individuals find efficacious solutions to their problems, yielding the healthiest outcomes. One must always consider the ramifications for their thoughts, behaviors, and actions, including positive and negative externalities. Infidelity is a delicate subject, meaning that lives are on the line in a number of ways. This topic is one in which individuals have hardened stances on, making it a perfect candidate to receive attention.

-*Limitations*:

I will only be using scholarly sources for this thread.
I have other professional demands on my time, leaving this specific undertaking to a few hours per week.

-*Bio*:

I am a coach that lives for research and helping individuals. I am certified to coach. Coaching is a process that requires extensive work on my part to make it efficacious. This means that I have spent (and will continue to) incredible amounts of time to research the various aspects that involve relationships. My greatest interests are in sexual dysfunctions and infidelity. I have this interest to help others, because of the incredible pain I suffered in the past. I greatly desire to help others not feel the pain I felt.

One might ask why the heck I bother on forums, then. I do need some challenges and disagreements in my life. The relationship between coach and client does not present as much skepticism as I feel is required, leaving me to continuously test my knowledge with you. I learn by having what I say challenged. Being challenged forces me to consider things from alternate points of view, creating the demand for better arguments on my behalf. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. 

I am thirty years old, engaged, and have a great little boy.

*My Experience*

I was cheated on a long time ago. I have felt the worst feelings and thought the worst things. I approach infidelity with the understanding of how it works and what it feels like, but with the understanding that we have no choice but to move on and eliminate the trauma that we feel. Through my incredible suffering, I learned an incredible amount about how emotions work. I spent absurd amounts of time to heal and understand the common pitfalls. I then realized that I could help others heal in the same manner that I did. 

To be continued...........



1. Walters, A., & Burger, B. (2013). 'I Love You, and I Cheated': Investigating Disclosures of Infidelity to Primary Romantic Partners. Sexuality & Culture, 17(1), 20-49. doi:10.1007/s12119-012-9138-1
2. Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

While I understand your desire to talk about reality and dealing with it, there are also some simplifying assumptions that can be made. So although it's true that people cheat, it's also true that promiscuity and swinging from tree to tree can be fun. And if the one stipulation one makes when forgoing all others is to demand the same of their spouse, then violating that stipulation completely ends the one thing that artificially binds a couple. For that reason, many need not even try to understand the WS... it immediately becomes irrelevant as the bond is broken and there is no more spouse. No need for analysis, hand-wringing, understanding, etc. Anger, resentment and grief from loss are ok, and I suppose that warrants a discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

*BD's Ultimate Affair Plan.....* 

Immediate divorce and NEVER look back.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

RT,
You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic. 

A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
- Treats them great during the marriage has a brief affair and immediately ends it and works to recon when discovered
Or
- Doesn't really treat you well, but never cheats on you 

Almost no one would answer the question as asked. 

The sad thing is - the second spouse is sort of chronically breaking their vow to 'love'. 





Relationship Teacher said:


> 1. *Introduction*
> 
> Those that have experienced the trauma of an affair find it to be one of the most traumatic events of their lives. Both partners lives are instantly upended, as well as those immediately close to them, such as children. The betrayed/injured/rejected partner is left with their world no longer making sense to them, displaced by grief, anger, resentment, and sadness (2). The partners often engage in bitter disputes, sometimes physically so, as they deal with the immediate ramifications of the disclosure. But, what about the one that disclosed the affair? They suffer as well, with feelings of guilt, indignation, detachment, righteousness, sadness, fear, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> *BD's Ultimate Affair Plan.....*
> 
> Immediate divorce and NEVER look back.


Yep, its a choice to cheat, there is no excuse. I certainly wouldn't waste any time with anything that tries to justify cheating, or the one who cheats. 
Its wrong and cruel, period.
Some can stay after it, and some cant. Some stay our of fear of being alone or of being a single parent.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> RT,
> You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic.
> 
> A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
> ...


I will answer you, neither.
There is a third option, be single.
I would rather be single than live with a man who treats me badly OR who cheats. For me cheating is a complete no no. The trust is gone and so has the intimacy. I have seen so many peoples/children's lives ruined by it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

But that's not what actually happens. 

You have most of your adult life invested with someone and then they get tempted. 

Many folks don't WANT to toss an overall good marriage over a single betrayal. And plenty of marriages recon successfully. 

Hey - it's not for everybody, but lots and lots of folks recon and there is no repeat of the affair. 

The unfortunate tone of TAM is that the BS gets a total and 100 percent free ride for whatever happened leading up to the affair. 

In some cases they may deserve that, in others not.




Diana7 said:


> I will answer you, neither.
> There is a third option, be single.
> I would rather be single than live with a man who treats me badly OR who cheats. For me cheating is a complete no no. The trust is gone and so has the intimacy. I have seen so many peoples/children's lives ruined by it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> RT,
> You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic.
> 
> A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
> ...


Why would I answer this question, I don't accept the premise of that this is the choice. It's like saying would you rather get shot or hit by a car. Um no. I choose no, or neither. I choose to be respected and not cheated on because the two can not exist together. So the answer to your question is C. You don't get to do either if you are with me.

This is the same reason this post is meaningless to me. I really don't care to understand infidelity, I choose to not accept it in my life. Just like I choose not to accept violence in my life. That is the best answer.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is the same reason this post is meaningless to me. I really don't care to understand infidelity, I choose to not accept it in my life. Just like I choose not to accept violence in my life. That is the best answer.


Pretty much sums up the reason your posts about infidelity are meaningless. You've never had to ACTUALLY choose whereas I and many other knowledgeable and experienced posters have. 

When it's really happening to you and not some exercise of the imagination or "Sophie's Choice" it's not so "meaningless" and there's a big difference between speculating, even with emphasized certainty, in advance, "I CHOOSE to not accept it in my life" to when the woman you love and married, committed your life to and have children with is actually putting you in the position to have to choose. 

That's not to say you can't CHOOSE divorce. It would be your biblical right and some people lack the ability, personality and maybe empathy to ever forgive and continue the way God would prefer, if possible. The biblical out was given to us as an escape from relational pain. It's not a requirement and God was clear when He said he hated divorce. 

"For I hate divorce!" says the LORD, the God of Israel. "To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "So guard your heart; do not be unfaithful to your wife." - Malachi 2:16 NLT​


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> The unfortunate tone of TAM is that the BS gets a total and 100 percent free ride for whatever happened leading up to the affair.


What? Not by a long shot.

The BS is responsible for his/her part of the marriage before the affair. They can work on whatever shortcomings they had if they decide to R or D. The WS is responsible for 100% of the affair because they knowingly and willfully chose to cheat instead of working out problems with their partner or divorcing first. Cheating is NOT in any way, shape or form, the solution to the problems in a marriage.

And I'm pretty sure you remember those threads where a BS comes here and admits to domestic violence or prior cheating,etc, and the members here let them have it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> RT,
> You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic.
> 
> A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
> ...



It is a rather "Sophie's Choice" type question begging for an alternate choice.

I'm long recovered and happily married and my wife and I share our testimony with many other couples all the time. Some have endured infidelity and others have much more insignificant issues to overcome and find inspiration in our story because it gives them the "if they can have a great marriage after THAT, then certainly we can address and fix our issue". 

My wife's affair open my eyes to a whole new way of life, understanding and thinking that I very much doubt I, personally would or could have obtained any other way. I was just as vulnerable to an affair as my wife at that time in our lives and had I found myself in Satan's snare, I believe I lacked the ability my wife had to pull myself out of it, repent and commit myself to rebuilding a great marriage AND even if I could, my wife probably couldn't have done what I did. I harbor no resentment over the affair. It's as far as the east is from the west and being able to share ourselves with other couples is God's plan for us. Her affair wasn't "of God". It was certainly evil and the natural consequences of our ignorance and sins; but that hasn't stopped the angels from singing as we both repented/repent for our sins and glorify Him through redemption and reconciliation of our truly biblical marriage. 

So to kind of answer your question, I would rather have what I have now including the history that my wife committed adultery two decades ago than to have had a faithful wife all these years that treated me poorly.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Pretty much sums up the reason your posts about infidelity are meaningless. You've never had to ACTUALLY choose whereas I and many other knowledgeable and experienced posters have.
> 
> When it's really happening to you and not some exercise of the imagination or "Sophie's Choice" it's not so "meaningless" and there's a big difference between speculating, even with emphasized certainty, in advance, "I CHOOSE to not accept it in my life" to when the woman you love and married, committed your life to and have children with is actually putting you in the position to have to choose.
> 
> ...



The question was asked of me, you don't have to like my answer. 



"if a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death." - Leviticus 20:10​

Going by old testament law the adulterer is dead no need for divorce. Your point is moot.

God hates divorce it's true, but he puts to death the adulterer so divorce is not applicable in this case. By the way, that meant in the old testament you didn't even get a chance to R, because God overruled you and ordered your WS put to death. I wonder why that is, maybe God like me thinks for the most part it's pointless.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> RT,
> You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic.
> 
> A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
> ...


Well what you are asking is would you rather eat dog shyt or cat shyt.

I don't eat at either restaurant. I have other choices.

I would never put up with an unsatisfactory marriage or my woman fvcking another man.

Just me. Some would honestly choose one of your options but I don't have limited choices and I require more.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Quality said:


> Pretty much sums up the reason your posts about infidelity are meaningless. You've never had to ACTUALLY choose whereas I and many other knowledgeable and experienced posters have.
> 
> When it's really happening to you and not some exercise of the imagination or "Sophie's Choice" it's not so "meaningless" and there's a big difference between speculating, even with emphasized certainty, in advance, "I CHOOSE to not accept it in my life" to when the woman you love and married, committed your life to and have children with is actually putting you in the position to have to choose.
> 
> ...


While I appreciate your thought out posts, but inferring that folks who divorce over infidelity possibly do it because they lack ability, personality or empathy for forgiveness is myopic and arrogant.

I have forgiven much over the years and would forgive my wife her infidelity if she strayed. She would however, not be my wife afterwards.

God hates sexual immorality as well as divorce and saying He hates divorce far more than adultery is not accurate.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

So when are you going to finish writing that guide, and will you include advice for wayward spouses on soothing tower betrayed beloved, and on helping themselves process and recover from their own guilt?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The question was asked of me, you don't have to like my answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well under the new law God doesn't put adulterers to death, nor did He put to death all of us humans whom murdered His son {though we are dead in spirit absent repentance and faith in Him}.

He still hates divorce.

Again ~~~ what you "think" is pointless is no where near as relevant {since you've never experienced infidelity} as what I and many others here and everywhere have actually experienced whether happily divorced or happily reconciled.

As ChrisH {forum adminstrator} posted as guidelines to this sub-forum:



Chris H. said:


> The Coping With Infidelity forum is an area for both betrayed and wayward spouses to post about, and discuss the circumstances and very powerful emotions surrounding infidelity.
> 
> For those that choose to participate in or contribute to these discussions, it is very important to be aware of your own circumstances in relation to, or how they differ from others.
> 
> ...


You were neither a betrayed nor wayward spouse and have no direct knowledge of such "circumstances". You post and contribute with seeming unawareness of your own circumstances in relation with others here and their circumstances and you continually deny Chris's basic premise that relationships can, and do recover from affairs while being completely unsupportive of those considering and/or choosing to make that effort.

Finally, since I KNOW you are not sinless yourself ~~~~>>>


"There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you" James 2:13 NLT​


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thing is - this is more of a - we all marry expecting our partner to treat us great AND remain loyal. 

Obviously it doesn't always play out like that. 

Anyway it's fine - for those of you who would walk. I'm cool with that. Its just been my experience that most folks who say that, find it much harder to walk away when faced with the actual situation. 





ConanHub said:


> While I appreciate your thought out posts, but inferring that folks who divorce over infidelity possibly do it because they lack ability, personality or empathy for forgiveness is myopic and arrogant.
> 
> I have forgiven much over the years and would forgive my wife her infidelity if she strayed. She would however, not be my wife afterwards.
> 
> God hates sexual immorality as well as divorce and saying He hates divorce far more than adultery is not accurate.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> While I appreciate your thought out posts, but inferring that folks who divorce over infidelity possibly do it because they lack ability, personality or empathy for forgiveness is myopic and arrogant.
> 
> I have forgiven much over the years and would forgive my wife her infidelity if she strayed. She would however, not be my wife afterwards.
> 
> God hates sexual immorality as well as divorce and saying He hates divorce far more than adultery is not accurate.


Good points. I used the word "possibly" because I don't know. I'm not trying to disparage those that choose to divorce nor the many that divorce without any chance or choices whatsoever as those persons may be the most able, strong, empathetic, forgiving persons ever yet still be divorced. I have a constitution that has enabled me to be forgiving, empathetic and merciful and I believe that was/is pleasing to God. Your opinion and experience may vary. 

I'm not better than any betrayed spouse that ended up divorced. I was absolutely convinced that's where I was headed myself at one time through little fault of my own {neither of us were good at marriage back then}. I've also helped many betrayed husbands through the divorce process after a noble attempt at trying to save their wives and families from the consequences of divorce and spiritual death. I'm not anti-divorce. 

I also am not trying to indicate that God hates divorce MORE than adultery. Just indicating He hates divorce as well as emphasizing His message of faith, hope, love along with mercy, repentance and forgiveness.

"Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 NLT​


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Well under the new law God doesn't put adulterers to death, nor did He put to death all of us humans whom murdered His son {though we are dead in spirit absent repentance and faith in Him}.
> 
> He still hates divorce.
> 
> ...


First off your premise of mercy and forgiveness has nothing to do with staying in the marriage. I believe whole heartedly that the BS should and is commanded to forgive. I believe that command is for the BS benefit more then the WS. Living with hate and unforgiveness will kill you. It is useful though at first to get out of adultery. 

Besides that before if they cheated they were dead now they get to live, sounds like mercy to me. I think people who repent should be able to start over, I just don't think it is healthy for the BS, besides that that wasn't even what the post was about. It was about the silly hypothetical that was posted that I rejected outright. I admit it was rude of me to jump all over the teachers post though. I can be kind of an ass at times. 0 

Second since you want to talk scripture (you brought up) God is the same yesterday, today and forever, as I am sure you know as it is used all the time for other things, that leads me to believe he has absolutely no problem with you leaving for Adultery since he was basically going to kill the WS. Again in the old testament you didn't even get to stay with your WS you were COMMANDED TO STONE THEM TO DEATH. (that seems very harsh to me, but can't deny it says it there) 

In the new testament he give you the mercy of staying if you want, but the preponderance of evidence (since the WS was dead in the OT) is that God doesn't expect you to stay because he hates divorce. Same yesterday, today and forever right. So it doesn't make sense that now that we have the new covenant he expects the offended party to live with a worse deal then you did before. Name any other way where the new covenant works that way? Nope the mercy in this case is to the WS, and the BS if they should choose to stay together. The old testament commandment and not have to put there WS to death is void. You know kind of like how we can now eat pork. You don't have to kill you cheating spouse now. You can just divorce them. Seems like a good deal. 

Um an Quality I don't care if you think what I say has pointless or not. I don't care if you think that just because I wasn't married when I was cheated on I didn't feel the same pain or have to make the same difficult choice. I know my own mind and married or not I would have made the same choice, even more so since I survived the first time. Finally I am not writing to convince you. If you feel differently that's fine, but quit trying to invalidate my opinion. I have a right to it just as you have yours.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Well what you are asking is would you rather eat dog shyt or cat shyt.
> 
> I don't eat at either restaurant. I have other choices.
> 
> ...


See, it's so hard with the written word because I could {but I don't} take equal offense to these counter-implications.

I didn't have limited choices. I didn't really WANT to divorce but had we, I'd have been fine and found happiness. It was my wife and the mother of my chidrens' life I was more worried about at the time. 

I and many other betrayed spouses that reconciled DID require more as well. I didn't rug sweep the adultery and just go about our young marriage as it previously existed. I got a new and better marriage. One that I didn't even know was possible and do not currently believe I had the ability, empathy, etc to have achieved any other way. The idiom it is better to give than receive is applicable here. I learned and have received countless blessings due to having been forgiving, loving and merciful towards my wife.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I


MEM2020 said:


> Thing is - this is more of a - we all marry expecting our partner to treat us great AND remain loyal.
> 
> Obviously it doesn't always play out like that.
> 
> Anyway it's fine - for those of you who would walk. I'm cool with that. Its just been my experience that most folks who say that, find it much harder to walk away when faced with the actual situation.


I have seen, helped and approved of many recons after infidelity.

As we have discussed and I have appreciated, your input, I am very good at being me.

Others need to play to their strengths and protect their weak side as well.

My best friend reconned successfully and I helped him.

He has different gifts and strengths than I. We admire in each other what we don't possess or need to develop.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Quality said:


> See, it's so hard with the written word because I could take equal offense to these counter-implications.
> 
> I didn't have limited choices. I didn't really WANT to divorce but had we, I'd have been fine and found happiness. It was my wife and the mother of my chidrens' life I was more worried about at the time.
> 
> I and many other betrayed spouses that reconciled DID require more as well. I didn't rug sweep the adultery and just go about our young marriage as it previously existed. I got a new and better marriage. One that I didn't even know was possible and do not currently believe I had the ability, empathy, etc to have achieved any other way. The idiom it is better to give than receive is applicable here. I learned and have received countless blessings due to having been forgiving, loving and merciful towards my wife.


I wasn't actually addressing any real case of infidelity.

I was addressing his hypothetical question.

When asked which evil do I choose? The answer is no.

My best friend is wired differently than me and reconciled with his very wayward wife with my help and approval even though I would not have taken his path.

I pretty much affair proofed my marriage from the start though having seen far too much harm from people treating their families and marriages like sewage and even themselves through infidelity.

It wasn't going to enter my marriage unaware or unchallenged.

I have seen many that just didn't protect against it so it occurred.

But having laid my groundwork and after a lifetime of pain, I will not stay with an unfaithful woman though I know, and hope, adulterers can change.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Um an Quality I don't care if you think what I say has pointless or not. I don't care if you think that just because I wasn't married when I was cheated on I didn't feel the same pain or have to make the same difficult choice. I know my own mind and married or not I would have made the same choice, even more so since I survived the first time. Finally I am not writing to convince you. If you feel differently that's fine, but quit trying to invalidate my opinion. I have a right to it just as you have yours.


Ah, so you WERE betrayed. Explains a lot. I say this out of compassion for you: You have absolutely *got* to let go of your bitterness. Not necessarily to your wayward fiancee; you've a right to be angry with her if you wish.

I know you're in a pain that I can't even imagine. I'm sure you've been in that pain for years, and your pain rises up in a righteous fire every time you see or hear anything to do with Wayward spouses. That's understandable. You were traumatized by the one person you should have been able to trust. That is an immense burden to bear. But spreading this resentment to every Wayward spouse in the world is just not healthy. You're not going to be able to love or accept another woman in your life until you recognize and understand that not all waywards are the same. Far more importantly, you need to recognize that your bitterness will not protect you from further hurt.

There is a possibility that you could meet someone you think is safe, marry her, and be betrayed again in the future. Hating Wayward spouses as a group cannot prevent that from happening. And even if the unthinkable does happen someday, your wayward wife might not be like your wayward fiancee.

What if you got cheated on, and your wayward wife confessed to you, offered to take a polygraph, gave you ALL her info, went to IC, comforted you, answered every question, never defended herself, and basically made "How to Help your Spouse" her Bible? What if she did absolutely everything right? Would you deny yourself and her the opportunity to have a marriage with someone who truly and honestly wants to help you more than anything else in the world? 

True remorse is rare, but It well may be that there is no marriage partner safer than the perfectly remorseful Wayward spouse. I'm not there yet, not in any sense of the imagination. But that is my goal: to be one hundred percent safe for my BH. 

Anyway, the point of this rant is that you mustn't let your bitterness hurt you anymore. Harboring resentment does nothing to protect you. It only prevents you from seeing the hope in what could lie ahead.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> First off your premise of mercy and forgiveness has nothing to do with staying in the marriage. I believe whole heartedly that the BS should and is commanded to forgive. I believe that command is for the BS benefit more then the WS. Living with hate and unforgiveness will kill you. It is useful though at first to get out of adultery.
> 
> Besides that before if they cheated they were dead now they get to live, sounds like mercy to me. I think people who repent should be able to start over, I just don't think it is healthy for the BS, besides that that wasn't even what the post was about. It was about the silly hypothetical that was posted that I rejected outright. I admit it was rude of me to jump all over the teachers post though. I can be kind of an ass at times. 0
> 
> ...


Here's a decent article on the subject of the supposed commandment to put adulterers to death by stoning. It certainly happened but it wasn't universal nor was it ever actually carried out by God {that we know of}. There are "commandments" to stone people working on the sabbath and for heresy. I'm sure there were even courts back then that would have convicted any one of us for looking and lusting at porn at any point in our lives as evidence of adultery of the heart. LINK

As far as requesting that I quit posting posts invalidating your opinion I simply request that you maybe try to make them less invalidatable. Saying recovery from infidelity is pointless and always unhealthy is ridiculous and appear to be counter to the premise {or rules} of this sub-forum. You certainly have the right to your opinion but either one of us sharing it here is at the courtesy of the owner{s} and their tremendously wise moderators.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> Here's a decent article on the subject of the supposed commandment to put adulterers to death by stoning. It certainly happened but it wasn't universal nor was it ever actually carried out by God {that we know of}. There are "commandments" to stone people working on the sabbath and for heresy. I'm sure there were even courts back then that would have convicted any one of us for looking and lusting at porn at any point in our lives as evidence of adultery of the heart. LINK


I love it when church people do this. Oh that commandment was never really used (but this other one, that was used all the time). convenient. By the way there was lots of times where the law was not obeyed, every time God brought judgment, it's very convenient that somehow this commenter knows that this one law was OK to disobey. Using your logic Quality I could just as well say do not murder is not really valid, after all I am sure not all murderers were stoned. I mean you can't be arguing that can you?

Whoever does not obey the law of your God and the law of the king must surely be punished by death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment. -Ezra 7:26 There are like 100 of these scriptures you know, doesn't say, well but maybe this one is a little harsh. 





Quality said:


> As far as requesting that I quit posting posts invalidating your opinion I simply request that you maybe try to make them less invalidatable. Saying recovery from infidelity is pointless and always unhealthy is ridiculous and appear to be counter to the premise {or rules} of this sub-forum. You certainly have the right to your opinion but either one of us sharing it here is at the courtesy of the owner{s} and their tremendously wise moderators.


I don't care what you post. 

That's the other thing you do all the time, try to get the moderators to ban me. There is a word for people who try to silence people who say stuff they don't like. Doesn't invalidate my argument though. 

I never intended to post on this thread, until that stupid question was asked. I answered then Quality attacked me as he usually does when when people say R is a bad idea. If he is going to say my posts were meaningless and invalidated everything I say because I wasn't married when I was cheated on and then he quote a scripture at me. I am going to defend myself and point out where he is scripturally wrong. I am not bitter, I am not angry but I have a right to say the question is dumb and not get attacked for it. 

I will leave this thread though as we are way off point as usual. 

@MattMatt feel free to delete all this garbage so Teacher can continue to teach.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> But that's not what actually happens.
> 
> You have most of your adult life invested with someone and then they get tempted.
> 
> ...


Being tempted isnt the issue, its what you do with the temptation that matters. They know that they may loose their spouse and family if they do it, but they do it anyway. 

I know a few marriages that did make it work after an affair, but its never the same. I know far more that ended. I know that I couldn't trust again after an affair, after the lying and deceiving, and I know that I couldn't have sex with him again after an affair, so for me the marriage would be over. Its a massive betrayal, it shatters the marriage and destroys the promises made. No matter how long you have been married the effects are terrible, and in fact the longer the marriage the greater the pain. 

Whatever has happened in the marriage cheating is wrong. My husband didnt have a very happy first marriage. The sex was limited and controlled by his wife . A lady at his work was recently divorced and giving him rather too much attention. It would have been easy for him to cheat(and take advantage of that ladies vulnerable state) but he didn't. He made it clear he wasn't interested and got on with his work. He made that choice to keep his promises and be faithful to his wife.Its all about the integrity of the person. As my DH says, the cheating isn't worth the pain and devastation it causes.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

About forgiveness. Its so important for our own well being, BUT it doesnt have to mean that you remain in the marriage. Its not the same as reconciliation. The adultery has serious consequences, and one of them may well be that you loose you marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> See, it's so hard with the written word because I could {but I don't} take equal offense to these counter-implications.
> 
> I didn't have limited choices. I didn't really WANT to divorce but had we, I'd have been fine and found happiness. It was my wife and the mother of my chidrens' life I was more worried about at the time.
> 
> I and many other betrayed spouses that reconciled DID require more as well. I didn't rug sweep the adultery and just go about our young marriage as it previously existed. I got a new and better marriage. One that I didn't even know was possible and do not currently believe I had the ability, empathy, etc to have achieved any other way. The idiom it is better to give than receive is applicable here. I learned and have received countless blessings due to having been forgiving, loving and merciful towards my wife.


For me the marriage could never be better after an affair. It would never be the same, something would be lost, the trust would be shattered, and the intimacy gone. 
Forgiveness doesn't have to mean reconciliation.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> For me the marriage could never be better after an affair.


Yet, my experience indicates the exact opposite, by leaps and bounds. Our marriage sucked prior to the affair but through my wife's repentance and my mercy and forgiveness, God blessed us both with a much more meaningful, loving and purposeful marriage. To be clear, it was because of the affair, but of God.




Diana7 said:


> It would never be the same, something would be lost, the trust would be shattered, and the intimacy gone.



That's kind of my point, it's not the same, it's better. Blind trust and naivete might be lost but it was never real to begin with. We're all capable of committing grave sins against our fellow man. Some struggle with sexual immorality while others struggle with other demons and sins. I've yet to meet a couple that didn't have any struggles. I've accepted our character and our destiny. I/we can't change the past so onward we go ~~ simply doing and being better.


“To live, to err, to fall, to triumph, to recreate life out of life. A wild angel appeared to him, the angel of mortal youth and beauty, an envoy from the fair courts of life, to throw open before him in an instant of ecstasy the gates of all the ways of error and glory. On and on and on and on!”

*- James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man*



Diana7 said:


> Forgiveness doesn't have to mean reconciliation.


No one is arguing otherwise. In fact, my wife believes I forever retain the biblical right to divorce her based upon her long ago ~~ repented for ~~ and forgiven ~~ adultery. I don't know if intellectually/hypothetically/spiritually I agree with "forever". Could I {or any betrayed spouse} really file for divorce NOW based upon something that happened over 20 years ago? I suppose if I was still truly struggling with it and it was legitimately based upon that; but, God will know your heart and if you truly put out your spouse for any reason other than that {despite what you might indicate to the world} you will likely have to answer for that? Fortunately I don't ever anticipate having to discern the question in real life.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Why would I answer this question, I don't accept the premise of that this is the choice. It's like saying would you rather get shot or hit by a car. Um no. I choose no, or neither. I choose to be respected and not cheated on because the two can not exist together. So the answer to your question is C. You don't get to do either if you are with me.
> 
> This is the same reason this post is meaningless to me. I really don't care to understand infidelity, I choose to not accept it in my life. Just like I choose not to accept violence in my life. That is the best answer.


Yep, I have a zero tolerance policy myself. I haven't really been able to understand why you would be willing to stay after being cheated on. I know that people who have stayed have expressed why they have here on TAM but no reason I have read to date really wouldn't hold any water with me.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> Pretty much sums up the reason your posts about infidelity are meaningless. You've never had to ACTUALLY choose whereas I and many other knowledgeable and experienced posters have.
> 
> When it's really happening to you and not some exercise of the imagination or "Sophie's Choice" it's not so "meaningless" and there's a big difference between speculating, even with emphasized certainty, in advance, "I CHOOSE to not accept it in my life" to when the woman you love and married, committed your life to and have children with is actually putting you in the position to have to choose.
> 
> ...


So you're saying that if someone refuses to stay with an adulterer, that they lack empathy?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> About forgiveness. Its so important for our own well being, BUT it doesnt have to mean that you remain in the marriage. Its not the same as reconciliation. The adultery has serious consequences, and one of them may well be that you loose you marriage.


This, I agree. 

I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I will answer you, neither.
> There is a third option, be single.
> I would rather be single than live with a man who treats me badly OR who cheats. For me cheating is a complete no no. The trust is gone and so has the intimacy. I have seen so many peoples/children's lives ruined by it.


Agree, and kids also pick up if their parents are doormats for the other, that is how marriage should look. Marriage takes two, not one person carrying the entire thing, while the other sleeps with others. That's not a marriage. If only one person is doing all the ''heavy lifting,'' and the other is sort of coasting along, that's not a marriage. I'm not married (getting married this year), but my parents have served as pretty great role models, and it was always a two way street.

Divorce wouldn't be easy, but staying with a spouse who chose to lie about what they were doing when not with you, sleeping with someone else, while you keep the marriage going...that would be easier than accepting to stay with someone that reckless. Imagine if you get a STD because your spouse was sleeping with others? No thanks...I think people can make mistakes, but having a full blown affair and chronic lying aren't mistakes. They are character flaws, and all too often, the person gets caught, and comes running back to their marriage because they fear losing their marriage. They wanted to keep having the affair, but didn't want to lose their nice lifestyle, and all that. Again, divorce is hard and not ideal, but what are you gaining by staying with someone who treats you like this? I'm a Christian, but I don't believe God would be angry over people leaving abusive relationships. This kind of treatment is emotionally abusive, to me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> Yet, my experience indicates the exact opposite, by leaps and bounds. Our marriage sucked prior to the affair but through my wife's repentance and my mercy and forgiveness, God blessed us both with a much more meaningful, loving and purposeful marriage. To be clear, it was because of the affair, but of God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To expect our spouse to be faithful is not 'blind trust' or 'naivety'.Its what marriage is all about, trust, faithfulness, keeping the vows made. Thats why I married a man with very strong moral values and integrity, one who never cheated despite his long unhappy first marriage. I know a lovely lady who took her life due to deep depression caused by her husbands very long affair, its one of the worst things you can do to someone.There is no excuse. 

I have a good marriage. I know that after an affair, all that is important to me about that marriage would be lost. That's why Gods punishment for adultery was so dire, He knows what it does to us. He knows the seriousness. That's why he allows divorce for adultery. 

Yes we all have weaknesses, but adultery is a not just a weakness, its a very serious sin, one that often destroys people and marriages. You are still married, that's your choice, many people cant stay and that's right for them.
In a marriage after adultery, something so important has been lost and you can never get that back again. Complete trust and intimacy just between you has gone.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> Agree, and kids also pick up if their parents are doormats for the other, that is how marriage should look. Marriage takes two, not one person carrying the entire thing, while the other sleeps with others. That's not a marriage. If only one person is doing all the ''heavy lifting,'' and the other is sort of coasting along, that's not a marriage. I'm not married (getting married this year), but my parents have served as pretty great role models, and it was always a two way street.
> 
> Divorce wouldn't be easy, but staying with a spouse who chose to lie about what they were doing when not with you, sleeping with someone else, while you keep the marriage going...that would be easier than accepting to stay with someone that reckless. Imagine if you get a STD because your spouse was sleeping with others? No thanks...I think people can make mistakes, but having a full blown affair and chronic lying aren't mistakes. They are character flaws, and all too often, the person gets caught, and comes running back to their marriage because they fear losing their marriage. They wanted to keep having the affair, but didn't want to lose their nice lifestyle, and all that. Again, divorce is hard and not ideal, but what are you gaining by staying with someone who treats you like this? I'm a Christian, but I don't believe God would be angry over people leaving abusive relationships. This kind of treatment is emotionally abusive, to me.



You are a wise young lady and congratulations on your forthcoming marriage. I think you are right that someone who cheats has a character flaw. If they have done it once they can do it again, and often do, especially if they have been no consequences to their cheating. 
No divorce isn't easy at all, but that is a consequence of such a deep and serious betrayal.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> This, I agree.
> 
> I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.


Yes, its pointless unless the one who cheats takes full responsibility for what they did, and is prepared to do everything that can to try and restore the trust. If they have sex again with another person, then its probably pointless. 
Maybe more people could stay if the affair was a one off thing, but many affairs last for weeks, months or years, with deception and lying all that time. If a cheater can do that, then to me they are capable of anything, and should never be trusted or believed again.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

You choose to marry and you choose to cheat. 

As I get older, I think the idea that 'monogamy is a myth' is a cop-out. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying it is an excuse.

Beyond the obvious reasons it is an excuse: there's also the whole fact that people generally don't marry the first five or six people they've dated and had sex with. Serial monogamy, if you will. That situation still fulfills the desire of humans to bang everything, and allows them to be monogamous with one person.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

toblerone said:


> You choose to marry and you choose to cheat.
> 
> As I get older, I think the idea that 'monogamy is a myth' is a cop-out. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying it is an excuse.
> 
> Beyond the obvious reasons it is an excuse: there's also the whole fact that people generally don't marry the first five or six people they've dated and had sex with. Serial monogamy, if you will. That situation still fulfills the desire of humans to bang everything, and allows them to be monogamous with one person.


Yes I hear that idea that men especially are 'wired to have sex with as many women as possible' and that also is an excuse. 
The idea that you have to 'sow your wild oats' before you marry is wrong as well. There are many men who don't do that who are happily married.
I believe that we are made to be in a family unit, made to be faithful and exclusive.
As you say, its a decision to cheat, especially if the affair is longer. Each time you have sex with that person you are making that decision again and putting your selfish lusts before your spouse and children.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.

But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).

Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> This, I agree.
> 
> I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.


I think you could substitute BS for WS, and it could be just as true.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen to that.

So - I met Cindy (not her real name) through work. 

She was in her early 40's, married 10+ years and the main breadwinner (it was a 65% - 35% split on income). Her H committed financial infidelity and totally erased their net worth. He took them from 600K to zero. 

And just to be clear - Cindy had created half their net worth through hard work and savings, and she had inherited the other half. So her H erased capital he didn't create. 

This is what she said to me: Sure I could divorce him BUT:
1. He is a great dad, always has been
2. That will only increase our costs and decerease our ability to save as he will need to rent a place to live

Adding: If he had cheated on me in the usual way, sure I would be angry and hurt, but I would get over that. There is no recovery from this. He has permanently fvcked us. 

------------







jld said:


> I think you could substitute BS for WS, and it could be just as true.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Amen to that.
> 
> So - I met Cindy (not her real name) through work.
> 
> ...


Yep. Lots of ways to betray a partner. Not just the one way TAM folks seem fixated on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,

Yes. That is exactly what bothers me about this. It sort of goes like this:
- Sexual infidelity 
- Physical violence 
- Addiction to (gambling, drugs, alcohol, ...) that disrupts day to day life

Those are valid reasons for divorce. Maybe even seen as righteous reasons for divorce - meaning that staying with such a person is 'wrong/bad'. 

I personally see it differently. I far prefer a terrific partner who may on occasion err, than a mediocre partner who avoids any 'major' sins. But that's just my preference. 

And - I am fully aware that the opposing view is a terrific partner who doesn't err. 





jld said:


> Yep. Lots of ways to betray a partner. Not just the one way TAM folks seem fixated on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thing is, you marry a single human, not a bell curve. 

The statistics say: 
- In general men are less forgiving of an affair
- And are more likely to cheat

Me personally - I'm wired pretty well for monogamy. And forgiveness. M2 would never forgive an affair. She might stay with me, but she'd never really forgive me. 






toblerone said:


> Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.
> 
> But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).
> 
> Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

toblerone said:


> Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.
> 
> But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).
> 
> Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.


yes and I read recently that man who has many partners before marriage is more likely to cheat.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Yes. That is exactly what bothers me about this. It sort of goes like this:
> - Sexual infidelity
> ...


A terrific partner who doesnt err(cheat) is the only thing I would settle for(and have got). I would rather be single that be with a man who abused or cheated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Yes. That is exactly what bothers me about this. It sort of goes like this:
> - Sexual infidelity
> ...


If you are happy with who you are with, MEM, that's good enough for me.

I do think there are people who would be happier with a different partner. But they have to come to that on their own. And maybe not in this lifetime.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Diana,
And many people marry a good person who is faithful for life. And I sincerely hope that you achieve that result. 






Diana7 said:


> A terrific partner who doesnt err(cheat) is the only thing I would settle for(and have got). I would rather be single that be with a man who abused or cheated.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Thing is, you marry a single human, not a bell curve.
> 
> The statistics say:
> - In general men are less forgiving of an affair
> ...


I remember @EleGirl saying once that men are 7 times more likely to leave a cheater than women. Do you remember where you read that, Ele? I think it was in the summer of 2014 I read that.

I don't think I could ever have an affair on Dug. I am too transparent. I just do not feel right hiding anything. And he reads me so well.

If he met someone he liked better than me, I think we would just have to get divorced. If the other person is a better fit, I think you have to let go. Marriage is not supposed to be a prison.

Dug thinks that an affair is a sign of trouble in the marriage. I know he would examine his conscience long and hard if I were to be unfaithful.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jld said:


> I remember @EleGirl saying once that men are 7 times more likely to leave a cheater than women. Do you remember where you read that, Ele? I think it was in the summer of 2014 I read that.
> 
> I don't think I could ever have an affair on Dug. I am too transparent. I just do not feel right hiding anything. And he reads me so well.
> 
> ...


Thats interesting, because I think I would be far more likely to leave a cheater than my husband would. 

Like you I would/could never do it. I would not be able to live with myself. I am a very honest person, I could never lie like that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Diana,
> And many people marry a good person who is faithful for life. And I sincerely hope that you achieve that result.


 Well he never cheated on his ex who he was married to for 23 years, and wasn't very happy with, and he has never had sex outside marriage, so I know I have a good 'un. 
I wasn't going to get married again unless I found a very special man. :smile2:

We have had so many cheaters married to people in my family, and a few in the family, that I know I wouldn't put up with any of that stuff for myself.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> A terrific partner who doesnt err(cheat) is the only thing I would settle for(and have got). I would rather be single that be with a man who abused or cheated.


I find myself agreeing with your posts a lot today. 

There seems to be this idea that we all just need to sadly accept that cheating is a part of marriage. lol No, it really isn't.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I find myself agreeing with your posts a lot today.
> 
> There seems to be this idea that we all just need to sadly accept that cheating is a part of marriage. lol No, it really isn't.



Exactly, and if a man or woman knows that there will be no consequences to their affair(IE their spouse wont end the marriage), then they may well do it again. 
I know a man who forgave his wife for 2 affairs and didn't end the marriage, and then she cheated twice more, divorcing him for the 4th man and marrying that man. Sometimes we can enable others behaviour by not standing up to it. He did it for the right reasons, he didn't want the children hurt, but usually a leopard doesn't change its spots, as in her case.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> To expect our spouse to be faithful


Should be a requirement. It's the very, very least, the very base foundation of marriage. Nothing else. Because if you don't have that you don't really have a marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Should be a requirement. It's the very, very least, the very base foundation of marriage. Nothing else. Because if you don't have that you don't really have a marriage.


Polygamous societies might disagree with you . . .


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> So you're saying that if someone refuses to stay with an adulterer, that they lack empathy?



I said "maybe" and I expanded upon it already to Conan earlier. 


Empathy can be defined as the the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

The successfully recovered couples I've seen, helped and/or know seemed to include betrayed spouses that were able to understand and share the feelings of their wayward spouse. They were certainly hurt deeply but still able to understand that such feelings weren't facts and didn't/don't define them. They were able to take the focus solely off their own pain and recognize their own humanity through the failure of their spouse. An unrepented wayward spouse is DEAD, spiritually; and, if one of your loved ones is DEAD, the sympathetic and empathetic thing one may choose to do is to TRY to save them {whether you reconcile or not}. 

In my opinion only, throwing away your spouse {and other parent of your children ~ absent kids and a young marriage you should probably run} forever, post haste and without a second thought due to their sexual immorality {adultery} is to me indicative of someone that probably has less empathy.

Then again, maybe empathy is developed/modified/molded through the process of such reconciliation or really any trial and tribulation of life. Getting older, maturing, practicing Christianity all have their effect ~~ positive or negative. It's an interesting consideration as empathy appears to be multi-dimensional involving both cognitive and emotional elements which, in part, might explain some of our differences on this forum between the persons that have experienced the true emotions involved and those that have not but simply share their cognitive "empathy" {or lack thereof}. I don't know. I'm not an expert and don't claim to know it all and I'm just discussing this with you all.

I thought it would be really hard to evaluate and measure "empathy" but I just googled and apparently someone developed a {scientific} test called the Interpersonal Reactivity Index LINK

I tried to do a before and after comparing how I think I would have answered these questions as the young naive idealistic unrepentant married man I was and the man I am today. 

My scores: Me Then/Me Now ~~ Index Mean: Men/women

Perspective Taking Scale: 17/23 ~~ 16.78/17.96
Fantasy Scale: 16/19 ~~ 15.73/18/75
Empathetic Concern Scale: 16/22 ~~ 19.04/21.67
Personal Distress Scale: 12/9 ~ 9.46/12.28

Appears I'm NOW more empathetic than the average man on all indexes where I was at or below average years ago. 

Here's a bit about what the scores mean ~ LINK


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Yes I hear that idea that men especially are 'wired to have sex with as many women as possible' and that also is an excuse.
> The idea that you have to 'sow your wild oats' before you marry is wrong as well. There are many men who don't do that who are happily married.
> I believe that we are made to be in a family unit, made to be faithful and exclusive.
> As you say, its a decision to cheat, especially if the affair is longer. Each time you have sex with that person you are making that decision again and putting your selfish lusts before your spouse and children.


Humans are wired to do lots of things. We are wired to take stuff to eat when we want, but we don't if we don't own or pay for the food we eat. We are wired to go the bathroom whenever we want. But we don't because we believe in hygiene and such. Many of us are wired to sleep in or at least sleep as long as we want. But most of us hit the snooze button once or twice and then get up and go to work. 

Whenever I hear this idea that humans are not wired for monogamy my answer is always so what. When do we ever do anything in life just because we are wired to be that way? That is never been a good reason. Is a child wired to go to school? And no one ever forced someone to promise to be monogamous against their own free will. It's a dumb argument. If you don't want to be monogamous don't get married. There are no re-education marriage camps in the western world forcing people to put on rings. 

Besides, only the very religious believe you should stay in a marriage if you are terribly unhappy. I believe everyone if they had a choice would have their spouse tell them they were unhappy and leave before they had an exit affair. The feeling by me and I am sure many others is that the abuse is in the cheating, not leaving the marriage. It is not too much to ask that you honorably end one relationship before starting another. No one is entitled to two at the same time. 

Besides, at least half of the affairs you see are not even about leaving the marriage, the WS wants to say even when they are doing it. It is really about ego and endorphin rush.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Yep. Lots of ways to betray a partner. Not just the one way TAM folks seem fixated on.


We are not "fixated", these are the post that started on the board. I am sure if we had new financial betrayals posted almost daily, and exactly the same, the way sexual ones are we would be talking about them just as much and just as harshly. I personally see very little difference in the two. lying is lying.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I am fully aware that the opposing view is a terrific partner who doesn't err.


Yeah, basically your first part just sounds like settling. I would have just continued to look if I had to choose one of your two, or just be alone. I was actually quite happy alone before I met my wife.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> yes and I read recently that man who has many partners before marriage is more likely to cheat.


There is actually a study that showed women who have had many partners are also more likely to cheat. I just read it the other day. Maybe I am wrong but if you see sex is just something you do and don't place any more value to it then say having dinner, I would assume cheating wouldn't be seen as such a big deal either. Or at least not as big a deal as say someone who sees sex as sacred. 

I, being a person who has never had sex with someone I didn't at least have some emotional feeling for, never understood how your mindset before marriage could be, this is basically just another thing you do to get to know people and then after marriage it is a sacred magical bond. I am not judging when I say that, I am just saying I don't understand that. 

Then again I am a man who never had and never wanted to have a one night stand. Sex was just too personal to me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Polygamous societies might disagree with you . . .


I am talking about monogamous marriage. Polygamy and open marriage are a different animal entirely.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Should be a requirement. It's the very, very least, the very base foundation of marriage. Nothing else. Because if you don't have that you don't really have a marriage.


I agree, trust and faithfulness are vital for a marriage.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I find myself agreeing with your posts a lot today.
> 
> There seems to be this idea that we all just need to sadly accept that cheating is a part of marriage. lol No, it really isn't.


I/we are not promoting or advocating that cheating is just a part of marriage or that cheating is some kind of blessing. 

Unfortunately for my wife and I it's a historical part of ours but, despite FEELING as many of you that haven't actually experienced it did or my wife thinking she could/would "never", it did happen and we recovered and have a perfectly normal exceptional trusting marriage today. Many others couples have accomplished the same thing and, I would estimate, great majority of those would also indicate they felt cheating was a deal killer in marriage. 

The naivete I speak of is this notion that you're all somehow special and it's never going to happen to you and/or you're incapable of it. Maybe it's less likely for you and I can rattle off fifty facts and circumstances that make infidelity more or less likely for any particular couple {the fact you are even thinking and talking about it bodes well for you whereas most couples naively believe sexual exclusivity is just a given in their relationship and fail to protect themselves from Satans obvious traps} but no one can guarantee that they or their spouse are 100% never ever going to stray. 

Don't forget ~ old people with dementia and alzheimer's in nursing home environments do it all the time and before you start justifying and rationalizing ~~ well, i'd be sick and not responsible for my actions, consider that a significant portion of repentant wayward spouses were suffering from depression.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> I said "maybe" and I expanded upon it already to Conan earlier.
> 
> 
> Empathy can be defined as the the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
> ...


This is interesting, and I appreciate you sharing it. People who know me consider me empathetic/compassionate, but be careful where you place your empathy. Adding to what Diana said above, don't mistake enabling and codependence ...for empathy and forgiveness. That would be my advice to anyone dealing with someone cheating on them. Make sure that the person is remorseful, otherwise...you're just enabling them to keep 'sinning.'


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Quality said:


> I/we are not promoting or advocating that cheating is just a part of marriage or that cheating is some kind of blessing.
> 
> Unfortunately for my wife and I it's a historical part of ours but, despite FEELING as many of you that haven't actually experienced it did or my wife thinking she could/would "never", it did happen and we recovered and have a perfectly normal exceptional trusting marriage today. Many others couples have accomplished the same thing and, I would estimate, great majority of those would also indicate they felt cheating was a deal killer in marriage.
> 
> ...


I think this is true, I mean it's easy to say ''I would never tolerate this,'' being I've never been married. lol But, I've been in relationships, and I'm engaged now...and I wouldn't WANT to tolerate it. It would seem unnatural for me to accept this in my life. I could accept many things...''for better or for worse'' but not cheating. Not abuse. Those two things, would be deal breakers...and if I don't keep promises to myself, how can I keep a promise to someone else? Maybe some people feel that marriage is it, you say ''I do,'' and the person can cheat, lie, etc...and you will just tolerate it for the rest of your life. I would rather be alone, than stay married to someone who doesn't see my worth.

Having said all of that, I hear you though. lol  I think that what you're saying is valuable, and worth noting.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> RT,
> You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic.
> 
> A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
> ...


I'll take option number one, with a large lemonade. Oh, and easy on the ice. Thanks.


Quality said:


> Pretty much sums up the reason your posts about infidelity are meaningless. You've never had to ACTUALLY choose whereas I and many other knowledgeable and experienced posters have.
> 
> When it's really happening to you and not some exercise of the imagination or "Sophie's Choice" it's not so "meaningless" and there's a big difference between speculating, even with emphasized certainty, in advance, "I CHOOSE to not accept it in my life" to when the woman you love and married, committed your life to and have children with is actually putting you in the position to have to choose.
> 
> ...


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Thank you for the responses thus far. Some of your thoughts highlight the reason for why this thread was created. My intentions are to enable individuals to make their decisions and be happier about them, regardless of what they are. If one wishes to dispute the information I present, I only ask that they include an explanation with a positive claim as to what "is" correct then.


A.) Why individuals cheat (there will be future additions to the various aspects of the UAP, especially part A)

To understand what pre-empts this most traumatic instance (or series of), one must step into the mind (cognitive and emotional) of the distressed partner, not to say that only distressed partners seek extradyadic activity. In fact, one of the studies I will present today discusses surveyed reasonings and mindsets that foster adultery. So, for me to tell you to empathize with the unfaithful does not mean that you must feel for them, or that you are validating their behavior. Empathy is a basic component to Emotional Intelligence, something necessary for a successful life, at work and at home. What is empathy, then (1)?



> Recognizing emotions in others. Empathy, another ability that builds on emotional self-awareness, is the fundamental "people skill.".... People who are empathic are more attuned to the subtle social signals that indicate what others need or want.


To fail to empathize in this situation is analogous to not attempting to understand what cancer is and how it works. That said, one will be confronted with feelings and cognitions that are not necessarily commendable or resembling any reasonable amount of logic. But, the truth exists and it begs to be discovered so that workable solutions may be derived. In working with infidelity, one must look it as a symptom of the underlying relational dysfunction (2), that is, that disconnection, marital dissatisfaction and unmet relational needs are the reasons individuals fall prey to committing adulterous (extra-dyadic) behavior (additional contributions will be discussed, based on various published studies). Understanding this reality greatly enables individuals to heal from affairs, re-create a viable relationship, address the character flaws that allowed for adulterous behavior and to prevent any future infidelity. As such, an individual may impart great relational gains upon their relationship by understanding the various dynamics at play with infidelity.(3)



> Sexual infidelity occurs when the sexual and/or intimacy needs of one or both members of a couple are not being satisfied in that relationship and when the constraints against infidelity are either weak or nonexistent.


Let me finish today's addition by discussing boundaries, which will imply joint-responsibility for the "underlying relational dysfunction". Often, a young couple will seek out pre-marital counseling in an effort to ensure their long-term success is prepared for. Individuals may not clearly understand what they are getting into when they say "I do". Those that are still in the infatuation stage might take it for granted, not realizing that the rush of dopamine will soon end, leaving the actual relationship work in the hands of clear(er)-headed indviduals with different opinions. Boundaries tend to be under-established or over-established, depending on various factors related to backgrounds and the established power structure of the relationship. Understanding that we humans are fallible and tend to be more irrational than rational, it only makes sense that boundaries are established to police one another so that grievous mistakes aren't made. Too few boundaries leave potentially dangerous behavior to be viable. Too many boundaries might sabotage the relational connection, literally creating the basis for the desire to seek connection..... elsewhere. That explains the need for some type of pre-marital counseling so that boundaries are joint established, making them voluntary and the reason for the arrangement entirely voluntary.

Boundaries are necessary because individuals have weaknesses, and I am not different, regardless of what I know or how much I train my E-IQ. Individuals think that they will always have the ability to say yes or now with ease, not adequately planning for positive and negative emotional hijackings that drastically undermine this cause. When we confide (emotionally) with others, we form bonds with them. Think of this like the roots of a tree. When the roots of a bond are established, the activity of exploring the connection become rewarding, which encourages the thoughts and actions that back the behavior. One can be receptive to the roots of another individual, and vice-versa, even if the primary relationship is fundamentally healthy; That is where boundaries come in. Boundaries are self and jointly enforced, meaning that it requires a mindful approach to protect the relationship.

I don't blame the injured partner for the actions of their partner, but one should not be surprised due to the statistical realities of infidelity. Further, if we properly diagnose the symptoms to the relational dysfunction, then it implies that the relationship truly can be saved. If the assumed cause of the adultery was because "their spouse is just a bad person", then we leave no room for any forward movement to take place. That leads us to one prompt that we have for the injured partner, were you not enforcing the boundaries of the relationship, leaving your partners vulnerabilities to be exploited, assuming their self-enforcement mechanism failed? This could lead one to realize that their spouse might have had employment that imposed risks to their marriage, such as travel, work around members of the opposite sex, work with many single individuals, etc. There also could be instances where the spouse was often allowed to go off and do their own thing, like guy's or girl's night out. It is important to qualify what constitutes time spent away from the primary romantic partner. In that light, one should consider the opportunities that are not acted upon to maintain or build upon the primary connection. If one hangs out with their friends three times per week, then we are witnessing behavior that could impose risks of immediate adulterous behavior or long-term disconnection. Did your roots dwindle somewhat from your partner, as they established new ones with someone else? Have you considered the amplification of hormones in a newly-established relationship? Were you complacent? If you were the adulterer, how did you let the connection build to this new man/woman? Do you remember when it no longer became easy to say no but became easy to say yes?

In regards to boundaries, one must understand that they must be proactive while they still have full access to their rational portion of their brain. This implies to plan ahead before any emotional weakness is imposed on them. Putting a relationship back together after an affair requires much discussion about boundaries, but also to ensure that partners are actively working to build and maintain the underlying connection. If disconnection breeds adultery, then connection (primary) can be seen to make adultery easy to mitigate.


1. Goleman, D. (1995). Emotional intelligence (1st ed., p. 43). New York: Bantam Books.
2. Cheour, M. (2016). Affair Recovery (1st ed.). Zenith Miami Counseling and Coaching Center.
3. Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> I/we are not promoting or advocating that cheating is just a part of marriage or that cheating is some kind of blessing.
> 
> Unfortunately for my wife and I it's a historical part of ours but, despite FEELING as many of you that haven't actually experienced it did or my wife thinking she could/would "never", it did happen and we recovered and have a perfectly normal exceptional trusting marriage today. Many others couples have accomplished the same thing and, I would estimate, great majority of those would also indicate they felt cheating was a deal killer in marriage.
> 
> ...


I suffered from severe depression for many years in the distant past, why is that an excuse?If you REALLY have depression you struggle to even cope day to day, the last thing you will be thinking about is cheating. 

I don't agree with you, there are people who would never cheat no matter what. Their honestly and moral values just wouldn't allow them to.
In the end its a choice, and while you may trust you wife, after an affair I couldn't. We are all different.

I was betrayed by my first husband in a slightly different way, my husband was betrayed by his first wife, my dad had a long affair, both of my brothers wives cheated, so I for one am all too aware of the terrible effects it has, and that's why for me its something that I wouldnt accept or put up with and many marriages end because of it. I disagree that people who know its a deal killer for them will suddenly change their minds if it happens to them. I know far more marriages that ended because of adultery than didn't.
My husband knows how I feel about this. He hates cheating as well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Thank you for the responses thus far. Some of your thoughts highlight the reason for why this thread was created. My intentions are to enable individuals to make their decisions and be happier about them, regardless of what they are. If one wishes to dispute the information I present, I only ask that they include an explanation with a positive claim as to what "is" correct then.
> 
> Before I begin with the lesson, I would like to share that I will be interviewing a prominent Psychologist, specifically regarding infidelity. It will be posted here (audio) when I have completed the editing, perhaps in a week or so.
> 
> ...


I agree that boundaries with the opposite sex are very important. These need to be agreed between the spouses. For example, one may be no eating out alone with a member of the opposite sex. No personal texts. No sharing of personal issues. No long car journeys alone together. No meetings at work behind closed doors. Etc etc.
Many people have no boundaries like this.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I agree that boundaries with the opposite sex are very important. These need to be agreed between the spouses. For example, one may be no eating out alone with a member of the opposite sex. No personal texts. No sharing of personal issues. No long car journeys alone together. No meetings at work behind closed doors. Etc etc.
> Many people have no boundaries like this.


I am definately one of those persons without these type of boundaries in my marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> I am definately one of those persons without these type of boundaries in my marriage.


Maybe you and your wife could discuss it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I suffered from severe depression for many years in the distant past, why is that an excuse?If you REALLY have depression you struggle to even cope day to day, the last thing you will be thinking about is cheating.


It's not an excuse but rather a mitigating, perhaps empathy inducing factor a betrayed spouse may consider when making a decision whether they should attempt to recover or not.



Diana7 said:


> I don't agree with you, there are people who would never cheat no matter what. Their honestly and moral values just wouldn't allow them to.
> In the end its a choice, and while you may trust you wife, after an affair I couldn't. We are all different.


Yet, there are married old men and women having adulterous sex in nursing homes everywhere who maybe thought that they "would never cheat no matter what".

Hopefully you're never faced with the choice {to recover or not with a wayward husband} but since it's your second marriage, you haven't been married all that long and you have no children with your current husband I'd probably strongly and advise you to end it too and it really not the same decision I and most of the recovered betrayed spouses I've helped had to make. 



Diana7 said:


> I was betrayed by my first husband in a slightly different way, my husband was betrayed by his first wife, my dad had a long affair, both of my brothers wives cheated, so I for one am all too aware of the terrible effects it has, and that's why for me its something that I wouldnt accept or put up with and many marriages end because of it. I disagree that people who know its a deal killer for them will suddenly change their minds if it happens to them. I know far more marriages that ended because of adultery than didn't.
> My husband knows how I feel about this. He hates cheating as well.


Are you reconciled with your father? 

Maybe you are aware of more marriages that ended because of adultery because marriages that divorce as a result of infidelity are more likely to broadcast that fact whereas most marriages that recover from infidelity don't share their experience with everyone or as wide an audience???

My wife and I openly share our testimony with others and have been approached privately later by many couples sharing their private facts and circumstances of infidelity survival. It's really everywhere ~~ unfortunately and getting worse.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Maybe you and your wife could discuss it.


We have, but all those things suggest a lack of trust and we just aren't going down that path.

Omitting all of those activities would by no means prevent infidelity in any marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> It's not an excuse but rather a mitigating, perhaps empathy inducing factor a betrayed spouse may consider when making a decision whether they should attempt to recover or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My father is dead now, but yes, I was never estranged from him. I didn't really find out the full details until after he died, although he did marry the OW after mum died(suicide). They went on to have a son as well. 

I do know of some marriages where affairs happened and they stayed together, in the church you hear about things. People can be more open about such things(as you are) . You say its more common now, I wonder if fewer would do it if they know they would be serious consequences, and they would loose their spouse and deeply hurt their children? I am sure many would think that their spouse would have them back, and that lessens the risk. The thought of loosing my husband would be all the deterrent I would need, he is far too important to me to risk loosing. 

We have been married for 12 years this year, so not that short. Even though our children are adults now, my children especially would be hurt as he is the only dad they have now, they never see their blood father, so just because the children are not young, they are still affected. However they would understand if they knew why.

However I married a man who wouldn't have it in him to cheat, and could in no way lie, I would know immediately if he was hiding something or something is troubling him, I always do. I doubt I would divorce him if he was to, because I would not marry again, but the trust would be gone and there would be no more sex, so probably no point in being together. Maybe a separation would happen, who knows.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Polygamous societies might disagree with you . . .


Wouldn't matter what they did. Societies with polygamy as the foundation are far less developed and dependent on the inventiveness and industry of more advanced cultures.

If Saudi Arabia wasn't located on oil and convenient for political reasons, there development, by more advanced cultures, would not have come to pass.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> yes and I read recently that man who has many partners before marriage is more likely to cheat.


This is a blanket statement and has been said about women as well.

It is useless because it doesn't take the most important factors into consideration.

Mrs. Conan was promiscuous and cheated in both of her marriages before me and was the OW twice while single.

I was with 60 women before meeting her and it would have easily been closer to 300 if I wouldn't have been so picky.

I never knowingly had anything to do with a married woman or even someone's girlfriend BTW.

Yet we have been faithful to each other once we got going and committed to each other.

We did have some bumps in our first year dating but since then and definitely since vows were exchanged, no hint of infidelity.

I have known many folks who married as virgins that cheated. Some, tragically, after 20 years of great marriage. They were just butt stupid and didn't think themselves capable of it so didn't gaurd against it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Wouldn't matter what they did. Societies with polygamy as the foundation are far less developed and dependent on the inventiveness and industry of more advanced cultures.
> 
> If Saudi Arabia wasn't located on oil and convenient for political reasons, there development, by more advanced cultures, would not have come to pass.


Marriage means different things to different people.

Someone on TAM might not view a marriage as a "true" marriage if it is not monogamous. Plenty of other people might disagree. 

It is no secret that many marriages traditionally were based on economic advantages. Were they not "true" marriages? Does it not depend on the parameters being used to define "true" marriage?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Marriage means different things to different people.
> 
> Someone on TAM might not view a marriage as a "true" marriage if it is not monogamous. Plenty of other people might disagree.
> 
> It is no secret that many marriages traditionally were based on economic advantages. Were they not "true" marriages? Does it not depend on the parameters being used to define "true" marriage?


Well I obviously define it by the parameters of my God.

I definitely note partnerships inside polygamy and don't harbor ill will towards them, I'm actually friends with a couple, but I don't acknowledge them to be a "true" marriage. It doesn't really matter to them nor should it. They do not lay claim to the same God I do.

Now. Anyone claiming my God and promoting polygamy would be a legitimate target for my ire.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Well I obviously define it by the parameters of my God.
> 
> I definitely note partnerships inside polygamy and don't harbor ill will towards them, I'm actually friends with a couple, but I don't acknowledge them to be a "true" marriage. It doesn't really matter to them nor should it. They do not lay claim to the same God I do.
> 
> Now. Anyone claiming my God and promoting polygamy would be a legitimate target for my ire.


how about if they are promoting re-marriage after divorce due to infidelity?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> how about if they are promoting re-marriage after divorce due to infidelity?


Re-marriage to the person they divorced? I'm for it in certain circumstances though old covenant rules forbid, and I still take caution with old covenant scriptures, because new covenant rules supercede many, but not all by a long shot, old covenant rules.

Actually I'm somewhat mistaken anyway. Bad flu. But remarriage after divorce for a lot of reasons should be ok.

Though Paul wrote against divorce and promoted separation if necessary but this subject should probably be on someone else's thread.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Re-marriage to the person they divorced? I'm for it in certain circumstances though old covenant rules forbid, and I still take caution with old covenant scriptures, because new covenant rules supercede many, but not all by a long shot, old covenant rules.
> 
> Actually I'm somewhat mistaken anyway. Bad flu. But remarriage after divorce for a lot of reasons should be ok.
> 
> Though Paul wrote against divorce and promoted separation if necessary but this subject should probably be on someone else's thread.


i was just curious. i remember reading somewhere that re-marriage used to be classified a form of polygamy since back in the day, the church never recognized the divorce.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i was just curious. i remember reading somewhere that re-marriage used to be classified a form of polygamy since back in the day, the church never recognized the divorce.


Depends on the church.

Catholicism is far removed from actual biblical principles on many levels.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Well I obviously define it by the parameters of my God.
> 
> I definitely note partnerships inside polygamy and don't harbor ill will towards them, I'm actually friends with a couple, but I don't acknowledge them to be a "true" marriage. It doesn't really matter to them nor should it. They do not lay claim to the same God I do.
> 
> Now. Anyone claiming my God and promoting polygamy would be a legitimate target for my ire.


I agree, for myself as a Christian, monogamous faithful marriage is the right thing and the only thing I want.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> i was just curious. i remember reading somewhere that re-marriage used to be classified a form of polygamy since back in the day, the church never recognized the divorce.


Thats the RC church, they have divorces, but they get round it by calling it an annulment. Its hypocritical.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Depends on the church.
> 
> Catholicism is far removed from actual biblical principles on many levels.


seems to me that it was rooted in scripture...

Matthew 5:32
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, brings adultery upon her. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:9
Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery.

Mark 10:11
So He told them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.

Luke 16:18
Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

1 Corinthians 7:10-11
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.


Romans 7:2-3
For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Thats the RC church, they have divorces, but they get round it by calling it an annulment. Its hypocritical.


yep.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> seems to me that it was rooted in scripture...
> 
> Matthew 5:32
> But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, brings adultery upon her. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
> ...


Ok. If infidelity takes place, divorce is certainly a biblical option. These scriptures all point that way.

People can be forgiven, lets not forget, by God.

My wife was both cheated on and the cheater in both her marriages before me.

She obviously divorced them, not directly for the infidelity but from neglect in the first neglect and abuse in her second marriage and to protect her small child.

She made bad choices to marry those guys and bad choices before, during and after.

She has repented and received forgiveness. 

Since sexual immorality did occur in both her marriages and both her marriages did end, she was free to marry again especially after repenting and being forgiven.

Both her husbands cheated on her first BTW.

The full scripture surrounding the several single verses you listed also paints a bigger picture of what was being taught.

This is a TJ.

Not going to respond about this topic on this thread.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i started a thread on it in politics and religion.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> seems to me that it was rooted in scripture...
> 
> Matthew 5:32
> But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, brings adultery upon her. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
> ...


The word Jesus uses in Matthew is 'pornea'. This can mean many different types if sexual sin, its where the word porn comes from. Many think it just means adultery. Nearly all of the divorces I know of in the church were because of pornea, so those people were free to end the marriage and remarry later on if God led them to.
Even if the divorce wasn't for that, there is forgiveness and a new start and new beginning for any sin we commit. This includes divorce(if it was a sin).


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

How convenient.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> How convenient.


 So you dont think that people should be forgiven for past sins/mistakes if they are truly sorry?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> So you dont think that people should be forgiven for past sins/mistakes if they are truly sorry?


Well I was just thinking of how we come to pick and choose what portions of the bible's word we want to apply within our lives. 

But yes, anyone should be forgiven if they truly repent.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> Well I was just thinking of how we come to pick and choose what portions of the bible's word we want to apply within our lives.
> 
> But yes, anyone should be forgiven if they truly repent.


I dont know many christians who pick and choose though.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I dont know many christians who pick and choose though.


None of us do. We're pretty secretive about it most of the time, that's why.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> So you dont think that people should be forgiven for past sins/mistakes if they are truly sorry?


This is the kind of question where the phrase "should be" doesn't work because it implies that IF they are truly sorry they SHOULD be forgiven. A better (IMO) opinion way to frame the question is whether a person who is truly sorry/repents for past sins/mistakes DESERVE to be forgiven. I won't pick on your inclusion of the word "mistake" as it applies to infidelity as that's a different discussion. So it gets down to whether they "deserve" forgiveness and the cold, hard fact is that "deserve" has nothing to do with it. 

Some guys can forgive infidelity and others cannot. For those who can't it's not a question of whether his wife is truly remorseful & doing everything to repair the marriage - it's that he will not and/or can not forgive her. Sexual infidelity is something that many men simply will never heal from and thus never forgive. They don't always divorce but they never heal. They forever have this painful memory and awful images of her in bed with OM and the feeling of resentment toward her is inevitable. These men have decided that settling for their WW is better - for them - than divorcing her and there are many, many reasons for it. 99% of those reasons are rooted in simple fear of the unknown and clinical codependence and a small number are what most people would judge to be valid. The bottom line is that it is not up to the betrayer whether they are forgiven or not - it's the betrayed who decides for themselves. When a man knows he will never forgive the best path - for both of them - is divorce.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> This is the kind of question where the phrase "should be" doesn't work because it implies that IF they are truly sorry they SHOULD be forgiven. A better (IMO) opinion way to frame the question is whether a person who is truly sorry/repents for past sins/mistakes DESERVE to be forgiven. I won't pick on your inclusion of the word "mistake" as it applies to infidelity as that's a different discussion. So it gets down to whether they "deserve" forgiveness and the cold, hard fact is that "deserve" has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Some guys can forgive infidelity and others cannot. For those who can't it's not a question of whether his wife is truly remorseful & doing everything to repair the marriage - it's that he will not and/or can not forgive her. Sexual infidelity is something that many men simply will never heal from and thus never forgive. They don't always divorce but they never heal. They forever have this painful memory and awful images of her in bed with OM and the feeling of resentment toward her is inevitable. These men have decided that settling for their WW is better - for them - than divorcing her and there are many, many reasons for it. 99% of those reasons are rooted in simple fear of the unknown and clinical codependence and a small number are what most people would judge to be valid. The bottom line is that it is not up to the betrayer whether they are forgiven or not - it's the betrayed who decides for themselves. When a man knows he will never forgive the best path - for both of them - is divorce.


Both my husband and I were badly hurt and betrayed by our former spouses, and I agree, they dont 'deserve' forgiveness. The reason I have learnt that we need to forgive, is that unforgiveness and bitterness is so damaging to our well being and physical and mental health.We need to do it for ourselves. 

People also seem to forget that if we forgive, that doesn't mean we must remain in the marriage. I can fully understand why having sex again would be a massive issue for many, trusting again as well. Imagining them with someone else would be so painful. That's why many will leave despite the fears and challenges that come with a marriage ending. 

I don't know how they can trust again, I doubt I could, so if I did stay, it would be more as house mates rather than a married couple, and is there much point in that?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Today's addition to the UAP will discuss some statistics related to infidelity (B).

To catch up, here is the list of my posts, thus far.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html


(B) Statistics.

50-65% are in therapy due to infidelity (1)

20-40% of couples experienced infidelity (3)

25% of couples therapy is initiated by an affair, with 30% more being revealed in therapy (4).

15% of couples incorporate swinging into their relationships (2)

78% of men denied ever sexually cheating (3)

88% of women denied ever sexually cheating (3)

90% of those that did have an affair justified it due to unhappiness (4). This speaks to permissive attitudes and not specifically causation. They also found that women were twice as likely to cheat due to marital dissatisfaction, meaning that they are more predictable than men are.

Men that cheated tended to be older, used more "substances" and were sexually dissatisfied in the primary relationship (5).

Disclosing the affair resulted in 57% of relationships surviving, in the context of college dating relationships (6). Hearing about it or discovering it for themselves creates more damage.

Attitudes and their relation to infidelity (7) (Strong/Weak/ or no correlation(prediction):

-Permissive attitude to extramarital sex (strong correlation to actual affairs)
-Extra-marital activity permissiveness, such as hanging out with individuals of opposite sex in somewhat of an emotional/inappropriate context(strong)
-Intention to cheat (Strong)
-Jealousy, those that cheated reported less jealousy regarding possibilities from their partner/flirtation(Weak)
-Sex to please one's partner, versus to please themselves (predicted Fidelity)

How were affairs revealed (7):
-38% in person
-38% or over the phone
-12% other/3rd party
-6% email
-6% text


1 Atkins, Baucom & Jacobson, (2001). Understanding infidelity: correlates in a national random sample.
2: Mcginley R. (1995). History of Swinging
3: Blow, A. & Hartnett, K. (2005). Infidelity in committed relationships II: A substantive review.
4: Glass, S. & Wright, T.L. (1992) Justifications for extramarital involvement: The association between attitudes, behaviors, and gender.
5: Atkins, D.C. (2003. Infidelity and marital therapy: Initial findings from a randomized clinical trial.
6: Afifi, et. al (2001). Identity concerns following a severe relational transgression: The role of discovery method for the relational outcomes of infidelity.
7: Walters, A., & Burger, B. (2013). 'I Love You, and I Cheated': Investigating Disclosures of Infidelity to Primary Romantic Partners. Sexuality & Culture


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## jessikate (Feb 1, 2017)

Quality said:


> First of all ~~~ this is a substantially inadequate bio. I visited your meandering musings from the safe distance of a vpn just a couple days ago and have a couple questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I second all of this except the apologies. You are not a psychiatrist don't act like one. Don't dupe people into thinking you have the ability to help. You are using statistics to normalize unacceptable behavior. Makes me sick. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

> 15% of couples incorporate swinging into their relationships (2)
> 2: Mcginley R. (1995). History of Swinging


15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE. 

McGinley is so biased. He's a failed engineer that lost his government clearance in the 1970's after "swinging' with some military wives. He's founder and president of the North American Swing Club Association, sort of a AAA for wife-swappers. He organizes the annual Lifestyles convention, now in its 28th year. He owns the successful Lifestyles Tours & Travel agency. And he runs one of the country's oldest sex clubs, Club WideWorld of Buena Park, Calif., which opened its doors, appropriately enough, in 1969.

So he proceeds to get what appears to be a mail order Ph.D. in Psychology at the unaccredited ONLINE Newport International University (that was owned by some guy in Hong Kong in the 1990's and early 2000's and even Kenya in 2005 declared the degrees obtained from the University are invalid - and then Robert writes a delusional book self serving book rationalizing and justifying his incredible immoral life and wayward mindset. I have no idea what the actual percentage is but knowing what I know about Mr. McGinley, it's safe to assume it's far less than 15%.

Our investigation shows that Newport University (aka Janus University) is not and never was an accredited institution in the US. Therefore their degrees are worthless. The latest developments and their European location do not change that. LINK​
RT,

Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan". It could be an interesting conversation and there's probably much you can learn from many of the people here that have actually been married a long time and actually experienced infidelity. We might be able to really help you develop something that would truly be "The Ultimate Plan" instead of that nonsense you have posted on your website.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jessikate said:


> I second all of this except the apologies. You are not a psychiatrist don't act like one. Don't dupe people into thinking you have the ability to help. You are using statistics to normalize unacceptable behavior. Makes me sick.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nobody is going there or utilizing any of his stuff. His youtube videos had only a handful of viewers. 

It's why I asked him if he is on the autistic spectrum because he doesn't seem to relate well conversationally here at all and his odd {but shallow} obsession with this subject as a single dad who just married his baby momma seems odd {not that I'm an expert on autism at all}.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Quality said:


> 15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.
> 
> McGinley is so biased.


It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.



> RT,
> 
> Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan".


I told everyone that they need to make POSITIVE claims if they wish to dispute what I have said. Everything I have said, thus far, is straight out of a clinician's guide to couples therapy for infidelity.

I am a relationship coach as stated in the opening post and as you can see in my signature. Be a good citizen scientist and address what was said. Ad hominem attacks will surely be ignored. Because you have said nothing, I can do nothing to affirm or counter your world view.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> 15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.
> 
> McGinley is so biased. He's a failed engineer that lost his government clearance in the 1970's after "swinging' with some military wives. He's founder and president of the North American Swing Club Association, sort of a AAA for wife-swappers. He organizes the annual Lifestyles convention, now in its 28th year. He owns the successful Lifestyles Tours & Travel agency. And he runs one of the country's oldest sex clubs, Club WideWorld of Buena Park, Calif., which opened its doors, appropriately enough, in 1969.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, I have never met or heard of a single married couple who do this. The 15% figure is clearly grossly exaggerated.He is clearly trying to persuade people that it must be ok, because SO many do it. No its not, its horrible and disgusting behaviour. A man who did this would repel me. Ugh. 

No one will ever convince me that an affair is EVER justified. Its not. No matter what happened to my husband I would not cheat. Trying to justify it makes it even worse. Just because someone else acts badly, or isn't the perfect spouse, or even cheats on US, we should be different and act with decency and integrity.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> I think you could substitute BS for WS, and it could be just as true.


 Wow. What a horrible thing to say  You really haven't learned anything here, have you?



Relationship Teacher said:


> It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.
> 
> I told everyone that they need to make POSITIVE claims if they wish to dispute what I have said. Everything I have said, thus far, is straight out of a clinician's guide to couples therapy for infidelity.
> 
> I am a relationship coach as stated in the opening post and as you can see in my signature. Be a good citizen scientist and address what was said. Ad hominem attacks will surely be ignored. Because you have said nothing, I can do nothing to affirm or counter your world view.


Way to not answer anyone's questions. I've challenged you before and all you ever come up with are platitudes or deflections. If you're going to post crap about infidelity, we have every right to ask what exactly makes you an expert. So far I don't see anything that does.

THIS is pure and utter crap right here


Relationship Teacher said:


> In working with infidelity, one must look it as a symptom of the underlying relational dysfunction (2), that is, that disconnection, marital dissatisfaction and unmet relational needs are the reasons individuals fall prey to committing adulterous (extra-dyadic) behavior


 Bullpucky. You can't blame the cheating on the state of the marriage or whatever 'dysfunctions' it has. Find me a perfect marriage that DOESN'T HAVE any kind of dysfunction whatsoever. It doesn't exist. Many many people have marriages that totally suck and they never cheat. Unless you're willing to separate the marriage and the cheating, you'll never have a true understanding of the many many reasons people cheat. Using the state of the marriage as the reason is nothing more than a cop out.



Relationship Teacher said:


> Let me finish today's addition by discussing boundaries, which will imply joint-responsibility for the "underlying relational dysfunction". ......Too few boundaries leave potentially dangerous behavior to be viable. Too many boundaries might sabotage the relational connection, literally creating the basis for the desire to seek connection..... elsewhere.


 How do boundaries imply joint responsibility?? If anything they imply the opposite. If I don't enforce my boundaries that's my fault, but to say that creates ANYthing in my partner, including the 'desire to seek connection' is rubbish. My boundaries are for ME, not for him. He needs to have his own boundaries, and if they don't include methods of keeping himself in his pants that's all on him.




Relationship Teacher said:


> I don't blame the injured partner for the actions of their partner


 Yes you do, and if you actually counsel couples after infidelity I pity rhe BS's because you're doing more harm than good. WAY more harm than good.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

1. In every infidelity text I have ever read, the therapist (author) always calls "Infidelity" a symptom of the relational dysfunction. Individuals are unhappy and seek connection elsewhere. This is the reality.

2. We know "why" individuals cheat......because they say why. Understanding their reasons/excuses does NOT remove any responsibility from their shoulders.

3. We live in a world that is not inherently out to get us, nor is the world there to support us. Lack of boundaries = more affairs. The relationship is a form of property that we must nurture and defend from outside forces. Humans are not always rational, meaning that we have to act in accordance.

4. Explanations and facts do not impose any blame. Individuals that cheat have the same amount of blame on their shoulders, even if their partner did not nurture the relationship. This means that the betrayed owns RESPONSIBILITY for their part of the disconnection, NOT the affair.

5. The betrayed ALWAYS has work to do after an affair (on themselves).

6. The injuring partner tends to have much more work to do.

I have 100% confidence that if you read a book on infidelity, you would be presented this same information. Grab Dr. Marie Cheour's book on infidelity that I referenced earlier on.

7. I only have this perspective on infidelity due to being betrayed several times when I was in my 20's.

If you disagree with my posts, then please post what IS correct and provide sources.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.

I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.
> 
> I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.


Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".

I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly

Thanks, FSJ.



p.s. I was politely asked to expound upon my bio. See the introductory post.


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

So I checked your webpage and looked into your certification. It requires no prerequisites in any sort of education. The certification can be obtained in 8 weeks versus years. You charge $100 for a phone session. Wow.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.
> 
> I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.


Word.

Is it possible that the relationship in question is significantly less than perfect?

It's more than possible -- it's damn near a mathematical certainty.

Still, infidelity requires nothing more than a partner lacking in -- or devoid of -- integrity.

That element will _always_ be there.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".
> 
> I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly
> 
> ...


How does one identify as "having it within them to cheat"?

That is a rather difficult control group to substantiate.

As to "character and the relationship", I agree that they will both need to be addressed. Where I think we will dispute is not only _why_ each must be addressed, but also in _what order_ they must be addressed, as well as _how_.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> How does one identify as "having it within them to cheat"?
> 
> That is a rather difficult control group to substantiate.
> 
> As to "character and the relationship", I agree that they will both need to be addressed. Where I think we will dispute is not only _why_ each must be addressed, but also in _what order_ they must be addressed, as well as _how_.


Your questions are fantastic and will be addressed, but do give me time. What I can say, at this time, is that one must consider themselves in different situations. Consider what I would do in various circumstances related to infidelity. I can extol my clean history of having never cheated, but perhaps I had it in me to cheat, but was never in those circumstances. Lets think about the aftermath of what I experienced. What if I, instead, disclosed my personal trauma to female coworkers/superiors and they used that opportunity to develop a connection with me. The ultimate point is that we are emotional creatures, specifically designed (or evolved) to be receptive to connection. I don't think there is an absolute way to eliminate the receptivity, but we CAN use and enforce emotionally intelligent boundaries. Ultimately, this is a deeply theoretical question, requiring a bio/psycho/social approach.


As far as what must be addressed (what,how and order), those are a primary theme to this thread. Those will be explained soon. Next up is more information on "why" individuals cheat, followed by "forgiveness".


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Relationship Teacher said:


> It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to understand, this is not the place to offer an opinion without expecting attack, nor is this a place to offer sources without a fair share of attempts to discredit.

We are in a society that values learning from books over developing skillls from actual experience. You could have saved 1,000 relationships... but if you don't provide 1 paper certificate, you'll be an outcast.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".
> 
> I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly
> 
> ...


Many wont cheat because they have good moral values and self control. Because they made promises to be faithful. For better and for worse is another promise of faithfulness no matter what happens. 
Those who refuse to do this no matter what have my utmost respect.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Word.
> 
> Is it possible that the relationship in question is significantly less than perfect?
> 
> ...


Absolutely, lacking self control, integrity and good moral values. Affairs are completely and utterly selfish and self centered. 
When you think that over half of married people never cheat, it shows that many still hold these values. Sadly many more don't.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> 1. In every infidelity text I have ever read, the therapist (author) always calls "Infidelity" a symptom of the relational dysfunction. Individuals are unhappy and seek connection elsewhere. This is the reality.
> 
> 2. We know "why" individuals cheat......because they say why. Understanding their reasons/excuses does NOT remove any responsibility from their shoulders.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree that all cheated on spouses need to work on themselves. or that they bear any responsibility for the affair. I know several lovely people whose spouses cheated. Some of the cheaters even admitted that there was nothing wrong in their marriage that made them cheat. As one said 'The opportunity came up and I took it'

My husbands former wife found another man. I have been married to him for 12 years this year and he is the nicest man you could meet and a lovely husband. 
Another lady I know (in my family) adored her husband so much and was a lovely caring wife. She ended up taking her own life after sinking into depression because of her husbands very long affair. Another member of my family had 2 wives who both cheated, one 4 times, he is the nicest most caring man you could meet. 

Sorry but the fault is always with the cheater. Yes we can do a lot to make sure that the marriage is strong, and we ourselves can have good boundaries with the opposite sex, but in the end we cant stop the other spouse if their moral values and integrity are not there.Such people will cheat no matter how lovely their spouse is, and they will nearly always blame shift and try and justify what they have done.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely, lacking self control, integrity and good moral values. Affairs are completely and utterly selfish and self centered.
> When you think that over half of married people never cheat, it shows that many still hold these values. Sadly many more don't.


Self control, integrity, good moral values... all these things can absolutely be present, but all it takes is an individual who can manipulate thier presence.

You are correct in that affairs are utterly selfish and self centered. It makes it that much easier to change someone's path, promises, or whatever you may call it, even if just temporary. 

A person who enters another person's life offering adventure and romance can't be resisted. It is the primary reason people fall in love and marry, as is it the primary reason people cheat.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Diana,
Certainly this is an important theme. Perhaps it is best to summarize my discussions on this topic with M2. 

First and foremost this is a topic I almost never raise. It is however a topic that M2 brings up periodically. When that happens she typically says some version of the following:
1. It's my (M2's) job to make sure you are happy in bed
2. And your job to speak up if you aren't 
3. And - I will injure/kill you if you cheat on me

The sort of interesting thing about this is that M2 is a very high functioning person. She consistently demonstrates self control and discipline. And yet, on this topic I have never doubted her. She appears to be entirely sincere. 

And while there is an element of dark humor in this type of conversation, the underlying intent is very real. 

So forgive me for being sexist for a moment. This - model/dynamic - wouldn't even be close to acceptable in reverse. But it has never once troubled me in our near 30 years together. Not because I don't take M2 seriously, I do. Rather because in reverse it would feel absolutely wrong to me. If M2 broke her vows, I would not strike or harm her. I wouldn't even desire such an outcome. 





Diana7 said:


> Well he never cheated on his ex who he was married to for 23 years, and wasn't very happy with, and he has never had sex outside marriage, so I know I have a good 'un.
> I wasn't going to get married again unless I found a very special man. :smile2:
> 
> We have had so many cheaters married to people in my family, and a few in the family, that I know I wouldn't put up with any of that stuff for myself.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> You need to understand, this is not the place to offer an opinion without expecting attack, nor is this a place to offer sources without a fair share of attempts to discredit.
> 
> We are in a society that values learning from books over developing skillls from actual experience. You could have saved 1,000 relationships... but if you don't provide 1 paper certificate, you'll be an outcast.


My certificate is posted on my website.

The information I present is the standard for therapy/counseling. Please check my sources. My main source will continue to be Peluso's.



Diana7 said:


> Many wont cheat because they have good moral values and self control. Because they made promises to be faithful. For better and for worse is another promise of faithfulness no matter what happens.
> Those who refuse to do this no matter what have my utmost respect.


That's true.



Diana7 said:


> I completely disagree that all cheated on spouses need to work on themselves. or that they bear any responsibility for the affair. I know several lovely people whose spouses cheated. Some of the cheaters even admitted that there was nothing wrong in their marriage that made them cheat. As one said 'The opportunity came up and I took it'


We all have flaws, implying the need for work. Our responsibility is to nurture the connection.


> Sorry but the fault is always with the cheater.


You aren't disputing what I said.

The actions of the unfaithful are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT on their shoulders.


> Yes we can do a lot to make sure that the marriage is strong, and we ourselves can have good boundaries with the opposite sex, but in the end we cant stop the other spouse if their moral values and integrity are not there.


Yes, we can. Good marriages keep individuals from cheating. 


> Such people will cheat no matter how lovely their spouse is, and they will nearly always blame shift and try and justify what they have done.


Some people will cheat, regardless of the quality of the relationship. This is the minority of cases.

The vast majority of cheating occurs in relationships that have dissatisfaction.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The first MC my husband and I went to totally separated the cheating from the marriage, so you're not correct when you say that all counselors have the same views as you do. And the fact that most do have the same views as you doesn't mean a thing, except that they are all wrong. If more counselors empowered BS's to take charge of things and not act like whipped little puppies who are scared to do anything for fear their spouse will do it again, I think more BS's would end up in a happy place and not stuck married to a serial cheater. And the first thing that needs to happen is that the WS takes 100% full and total responsibility for what they did. By saying that the state of the marriage contributed to them cheating, that doesn't happen. If a counselor thinks they must do their due diligence and address the state of the marriage as well, then it should be done at a later time. Not right at first. And it has to be separated from the cheating, as it's own entity. NO one is perfect, so of course every BS has work to do on themselves. But to say that contributed to them being cheated on is crap.

I don't care if you refuse to listen to me just because I refuse to spend inordinate amounts of time surfing the web just to come up with a bunch of links that support my view. Anyone can do that for any view they want to. I have better things to do thanks


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

This post digs into probably the most talked about question on this forum: why do people cheat? Followed closely by the question: why do some people not divorce after infidelity? And I suspect that the answer to #1 directly relates to #2. I wish I knew the answers.

What I have learned in my adult life regarding cheating and reconciliation amongst my friends and family is this: it is much easier for a female who is dissatisfied and has decided to escape the bounds of marriage to find a willing male AP. Almost all of the WWs I know of always wore their weddings rings and freely admitted they were married. And most spoke favorably about their husbands - even while the A was ongoing.

The males who wanted to cheat were not nearly as successful. Most had to either hide their marital status or severely downplay their happiness. And the number of willing female partners were limited, especially if they already knew you were married.

And my own reason for not divorcing after infidelity occurred is situational to me. Ultimately my W would probably end up dead (for a multitude of reasons) if I divorced her and left her life permanently, and I just couldn't live with that guilt. She needs me for the positive influence, support, and stability even though her past track record was not good at times.

This is based solely on personal experience and personal interviews with about 40 adults, mostly military couples.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> The first MC my husband and I went to totally separated the cheating from the marriage, so you're not correct when you say that all counselors have the same views as you do.


The symptomatic nature of affairs is supported by the community of experts researching infidelity. I am presenting what has been proven to work, not what I think makes sense.

Counselors will have different views! They can disagree with what the research I have provided, but they must do so in a scientific manner. We will be looking at a lot of Dr. Baucom & Dr. Worthington's research as time progresses. The community references them a lot.



> And the fact that most do have the same views as you doesn't mean a thing, *except that they are all wrong*.


You are disputing the established research that is presented to the psychological community, based on what?



> If more counselors empowered BS's to take charge of things and not act like whipped little puppies who are scared to do anything for fear their spouse will do it again, I think more BS's would end up in a happy place and not stuck married to a serial cheater.


That is nothing I have ever seen be advised. Expert advice entails discovering what led to the affair so that the injuring/unfaithful partner corrects the character flaws that led to the series of actions.

"What made you go to lunch with your co-worker and complain about your husband? That is very risky behavior and violates the marital boundaries."



> And the first thing that needs to happen is that the WS takes 100% full and total responsibility for what they did.


Total agreement.



> By saying that the state of the marriage contributed to them cheating, that doesn't happen.


I understand why you say this. I will work to add additional context for this particular concern.





> If a counselor thinks they must do their due diligence and address the state of the marriage as well, then it should be done at a later time. Not right at first. And it has to be separated from the cheating, as it's own entity. NO one is perfect, so of course every BS has work to do on themselves. But to say that contributed to them being cheated on is crap.


My very next addition will address this concern. I can give a short answer now.

If I start to become disconnected in my relationship, then there can be the emotional impulse to seek connection elsewhere, or I may be receptive to the connection from a "predatory" female. I may be entirely unaware that I am susceptible to bonding with a female that shows interest in me (extra-dyadic). Being unaware, the connection to the predatory female may develop, meaning that a bond was formed, even if no clear intention existed before-hand. At this point it becomes rewarding (dopamine/feel-good hormones) to participate in the behavior. In this example, none of the blame is shouldered by the wife, not even the predatory female.

"But, why didn't you (in this example) just try to fix the primary (marital) relationship, then?"

Exactly!

"So, individuals are excused of cheating because they couldn't help it due to not being happy and seeking connection elsewhere?"

No. My relationship duties are to nurture the connection, enforce boundaries, but to also ensure that no bond is able to be formed with another woman. As sane boundaries are violated/unenforced, the risk for extra-marital behavior rises.



> I don't care if you refuse to listen to me just because I refuse to spend inordinate amounts of time surfing the web just to come up with a bunch of links that support my view. Anyone can do that for any view they want to. I have better things to do thanks


I am asking individuals to provide sources for the information they provide. I have provided information from books and peer-reviewed research. 

I did not start at my conclusion and support it with random sources. This thread is born out of Peluso's guide to infidelity. I am entirely interested in what the therapists and counselors are trained to do. That said, not all get specific training in infidelity. There will be differences in opinion, but we are all well-advised to look at the research published in scientific journals.

Please do contribute, Hope.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> This post digs into probably the most talked about question on this forum: why do people cheat? Followed closely by the question: why do some people not divorce after infidelity? And I suspect that the answer to #1 directly relates to #2. I wish I knew the answers.


#1 is up next.

#2..... I know of some research that can probably shed some light on it. Additionally, some clinical reports may help to bolster the information provided.


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## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Both my husband and I were badly hurt and betrayed by our former spouses, and I agree, they dont 'deserve' forgiveness. *The reason I have learnt that we need to forgive, is that unforgiveness and bitterness is so damaging to our well being and physical and mental health.We need to do it for ourselves. *
> 
> People also seem to forget that if we forgive, that doesn't mean we must remain in the marriage. I can fully understand why having sex again would be a massive issue for many, trusting again as well. Imagining them with someone else would be so painful. That's why many will leave despite the fears and challenges that come with a marriage ending.
> 
> I don't know how they can trust again, I doubt I could, so if I did stay, it would be more as house mates rather than a married couple, and is there much point in that?


I agree with much of what you say as it is pretty much the standard advice regarding forgiveness. But it doesn't work this way for everyone. First off, there are many people I have never forgiven for wronging me and I feel fine about this. These are people I do not see often or maybe not at all so the fact that I don't - and never will - forgive them doesn't hurt me in any way. I'm fine with it. I know other people that are just like me so maybe we are a minority of people but we're out here. We don't forgive "so we can feel better" because we don't hold on to the negative feelings - we just cut those people out of our lives and let the memory fade away. 

The problem for me is that my wife cheated on me decades ago and I decided to stay with her but I will never forgive her. I can't cut her out of my life unless I can divorce her and completely detach from her and there are reasons this is not possible.

Being unable or unwilling to forgive someone doesn't necessarily damn you to physical & emotional torment.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html


Today's addition will discuss WHY individuals cheat. There will be more contributions to this subpart of the UAP. We will examine research published in the journal, Sexuality & Culture, titled "Understanding the Cheating Heart: What Determines Infidelity Intentions?"


A.) I would like to begin with a pretty explosive quote from this research. Remember, these are scientists that are working to understand behavior, not to cast judgment. Agreeing to what "should" or "should not" happen is unrealistic and often leads to an unfulfilling life. Instead, it is better to understand what does and does not happen and plan accordingly. Making full use of this information would imply that mate selection would be a more thorough process, involving an objective analysis of potential. Following mate selection, one would make better use of their emotional energy in the primary relationship, decreasing the chances of extradyadic behavior from their partner. A lot goes into nurturing the relational connection, and we can address that, in full, later. So, let's begin with our first quote (1).



> there are a few works that suggest infidelity may have some positive effects. For instance, early work by Buunk and Van Driel (1989) reports that individuals who
> were involved in extradyadic relations believe that such transgressions led to personal growth and increased self-esteem. Meanwhile, Jones and Burdette (1994)
> report that individuals who engage in affairs often think that their primary relationship improved due to their unfaithfulness. Finally, as suggested by Dainton
> and Gross (2008), for some individuals, engaging in infidelity may be perceived as a way to maintain a relationship by providing rewards not found in the primary relationship.


In this quote, we are not seeing the reports of individuals thinking that the affair saved their relationship, via finding a catalyst. Rather, we see evidence of men and women rationalizing their extradyadic behavior. Remember from previous posts that men are more likely to cheat out of sexual "needs not being met" and women are more likely to cheat out of lack of connection/dissatisfaction. Unfaithful men, often, report that "it's just sex", or that the primary relationship is only lacking sex, creating a need for sex-only cheating. In this mindset, the man feels that his behavior is justified, even beneficial. Think about it, if he didn't cheat, he would have to leave her, or so the logic goes. Women, on the other hand, do often succumb to infidelity out of being powerless in the primary relationship, or maybe just neglected of emotional needs. In this mindset, it is more about filling in a perceived gap, or flaw, with the attention of another man.

This research paper addresses many aspects of intentions, which I find to be somewhat of a quandary. It is my opinion that "intentions" are 99% of the problem at hand. Think about how many attempts are made to commit adultery, but the individual was rejected. There was that recent blow-up of that website promising individuals a guaranteed affair until it was hacked, exposing a list of the adulterous (mostly) men and (some) women. There were many radio shows getting reports of wives having been told by the husband that they signed up, but didn't do anything as if that was no problem. Many of you are challenging me pretty hard on the topic of blame and responsibility. Again, in a few weeks of posts, most of the context will explain why I have to say these things (logical consistency). As such, we can say that the intention to cheat is almost all of the way there, implying the same need for work on the relationship and hefty work on the one with the goal of adultery in mind. The ability to cheat, with ease, does determine (predictively) cheating, being a strong correlate.

(1)



> Intentions are indicators of the degree to which an individual is willing to try and how much effort he/she is willing to make in order to perform a particular behaviour and are thus viewed as the best antecedent of actual behaviour


The problem with infidelity is that it isn't as simple as one lusting after his secretary, consciously choosing to put his marriage certificate in the shredder and jump in the sack. In the introductory post, I hinted at other realities "I tripped" and "A cry for help", meaning that a lot of the time men are completely unprepared to turn down a predatory woman, and women sometimes cheat as a cry for help - to save the primary relationship. Boundaries and Emotional Intelligence are going to be key themes in understanding what went wrong and how to ensure cheating doesn't happen again. As such, it is understandable that individuals can look at this to understand whether their current relationship *is at risk* for extradyadic behavior. With statistically significant correlates, we can predict infidelity when looking at a wide enough sample of individuals.

The researchers go on, presenting three hypotheses (1)



> H1: Individuals with favourable attitudes towards infidelity will have a greater intent to be unfaithful.
> H2: Individuals with a social network that supports or condones infidelity will have greater infidelity intentions.
> H3: Individuals who think that it is easy for them to cheat will have higher infidelity intentions.


This will help us understand the attitude towards infidelity. We will then present information that explains how attitudes imply intentions and thus creates behavioral demand. We will conclude tonight's addition by using analogies given to us by an understanding of Economics. To understand behavior, we need look no further than how individuals spend their money. We have opportunity cost, subjective value, and individually rational behavior. Why does the individual run to the Chevrolet dealer and buy a Z/28 Camaro, eagerly handing over the money? That is easy to answer, that's because the individual values the car more than the money, assuming that the car will bring more satisfaction than having the cash and continuing to hold onto it. It makes sense to him; it feels good and he is rewarded with dopamine. We also have to understand that some of the subjective value placed on the Camaro comes from society, in general. That is, he desires the car that will make him appear cool in public. An uncool car will be subjectively less valuable. The same factors are at play for those considering infidelity. One might have a lot of friends or acquaintances with positive experiences with infidelity. This adds subjective value to cheating, whereas having many very religious friends would likely deduct much subjective value, due to anticipation of judgment and feelings of guilt. They may also be encouraged to cheat, as the wife isn't holding up her end, or so it may be claimed. Looking at the three hypothesis, one may infer that there are a lot of potential warning signs that we can look for in mate selection.


I will contribute more this weekend. TBC




1: Jackman, M. (2015). Understanding the Cheating Heart: What Determines Infidelity Intentions?. Sexuality & Culture, 19(1), 72-84. doi:10.1007/s12119-014-9248-z


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html

Continued from the previous post (123)

This research article discussed findings from dozens of other published research articles but also included a clinical survey of 512 individuals. Like any group of individuals, there is a lot we can learn from them, but we cannot extrapolate into other factors that weren't well-represented. This particular sample included mostly young, but well-educated individuals. They determined what factors were statistically significant (strong positive correlation with infidelity) based upon attitude, subjective norms (their environment/friends), and behavioral control, which involved perceived ease of being able to cheat.(1)



> Summing up, this paper suggests that greater infidelity intentions can be found among individuals who:
> • Have favorable attitudes towards infidelity
> • Display high levels of self-efficacy
> • Have a social network who would support their infidelity
> ...


Of those studied, 67% have been cheated on and 58% have cheated. Now I would be doing a poor job to not jump to the 5th bulleted conclusion. Does that not give credence to the "once a cheater, always a cheater" mantra? In terms of statistics across a sizeable sample, it would be something that one would be silly to not pay attention to, at minimum. That said, statistics only apply to those ........ that they apply to. If we use 10 factors to predict behavior, and we get a 90% success rate (think of Gottman's divorce prediction rates), then we can be relatively confident. What happens, then, if we use only 9 factors? The success rate would drop, implying that there are exceptions to the rule (once=always). Because of this, we can create some "exceptions" to look for to determine if someone has truly changed, or, perhaps, we can select the strongest correlates to test for. This would prove valuable to an injured (cheated-on) spouse or for an individual that is considering dating someone that they know cheated in the past. That particular development would be slated for a later date.

What I want to finish discussing about this paper is the nature of attitude towards infidelity, and a lot of this will flow well from my Economics analogy in the previous post. Keep in mind though, I am not here to make a claim that individuals have never cheated just because they are "less attractive" or because they fear punishment from others; I am not here to judge anyone, just to discuss statistics and the realities behind infidelity.

I find religion to be one of the more interesting factors here. There is no particular reason why religion should give anyone internalized morality that school or parents can't give, but the stats show, that across the sample, it has. Those that regularly attend and participate in church get wonderful lessons for life, and these are lessons that can be given anywhere, as long as we remove the religious context. If an individual grew up in an environment that had no negative light cast upon infidelity, then the only thing that exist may be decisions made in the moment. One has to learn right/wrong from somewhere and they don't pick it up from the glamorization that Hollywood casts on infidelity. A strong support structure from parents and close friends could easily fill the gap that religion occupies, per these statistics. But what about the subjective norms that correlate with infidelity, then?

I can tell you that I was often in environments that had many traditionally masculine males. Cheating was not denigrated, but promoted (at times). Because of this, many individuals feel that it isn't such a bad thing, almost as if there is no consequence to it. Even so, it is still one's responsibility to agree or disagree with the information they are presented with. Peer pressure and "subjective norms" may make something more palatable, but the same consequences exist for this poor behavior. We may get into a discussion of what biology would explain why individuals are so prone to cheating, but the idea is quite simple. Our species is programmed to pass on our DNA, meaning that individuals act in certain ways that tend to meet that end. A man is more prone to sexual promiscuity because it spreads makes more copies of his genes. A woman is less prone because she has to raise the children, meaning that she is more programmed to look for a high-quality male that can provide for her and stay around. There are many nuances to this narrative, however.

This particular research addressed attitudes and intention, but we still need to dive into why individuals agree to enter a committed relationship and break that promise. Are there not new subjective norms when a man leaves college, gets a good job and finds a good gal to marry? Does this not replace or compete with the supposed predispositions to cheating that he may have had?

One last note on the predisposition to cheat due to having cheated in the past. If you paid attention, those that were cheated on were less likely to cheat, and the authors explain that much of this was due to the incredible pain that the experience brought on them; they became scarred. It can also be that individuals that were cheated on are more sympathetic to others, regarding this particular notion, meaning that they wouldn't dare inflict on someone else the pain that they went through. It can also be an eye-opening experience for some. Think about it, infidelity may seem harmless, to some, until they experience it for themselves on the receiving end. What I would like to find out is why individuals continue to cheat, from a research-backed standpoint. My hypothesis is that they were likely not held accountable for what they did, leaving their attitudes and intentions in place. This is why the repair and reconciliation process is so critical. Reconciliation isn't a "turn-the-cheek" kind of forgiveness, but a new process of effort and data-gathering in an effort to determine the long-term viability of the primary relationship. 

This is why the element of forgiveness is so critical to the UAP. Forgiveness is so misunderstood by society, so it is no wonder we are in such trouble. The real process of forgiveness requires a real apology, otherwise, there is nothing to forgive. I absolutely advocate for forgiveness (especially for victims), but it requires a brutally strict process on the part of the relationship criminal. Forgiveness is the next post in the UAP, but let me end this by saying something critical about it. If one was cheated on and only received an "It'll never happen again", then one does not continue in the relationship, generally. We use my 3-phase plan to bring about change, maximizing the chances that the relationship criminal will make positive change.

1: Jackman, M. (2015). Understanding the Cheating Heart: What Determines Infidelity Intentions?. Sexuality & Culture, 19(1), 72-84. doi:10.1007/s12119-014-9248-z


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> Self control, integrity, good moral values... all these things can absolutely be present, but all it takes is an individual who can manipulate thier presence.
> 
> You are correct in that affairs are utterly selfish and self centered. It makes it that much easier to change someone's path, promises, or whatever you may call it, even if just temporary.
> 
> A person who enters another person's life offering adventure and romance can't be resisted. It is the primary reason people fall in love and marry, as is it the primary reason people cheat.


 People resist that sort of temptation ALL THE TIME. I cant believe that you think that we are all that helpless and weak. 

If strong morality and integrity are there, no one will be able to manipulate someone or make cheat.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> I agree with much of what you say as it is pretty much the standard advice regarding forgiveness. But it doesn't work this way for everyone. First off, there are many people I have never forgiven for wronging me and I feel fine about this. These are people I do not see often or maybe not at all so the fact that I don't - and never will - forgive them doesn't hurt me in any way. I'm fine with it. I know other people that are just like me so maybe we are a minority of people but we're out here. We don't forgive "so we can feel better" because we don't hold on to the negative feelings - we just cut those people out of our lives and let the memory fade away.
> 
> The problem for me is that my wife cheated on me decades ago and I decided to stay with her but I will never forgive her. I can't cut her out of my life unless I can divorce her and completely detach from her and there are reasons this is not possible.
> 
> Being unable or unwilling to forgive someone doesn't necessarily damn you to physical & emotional torment.


Well it is important to forgive even if you feel its not affecting you. I forgave my dad for things after he was dead. For a Christian its also what we are told to do.

I cant imagine what it must be like for you and your wife to live with unforgiveness and bitterness all these years.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> People resist that sort of temptation ALL THE TIME. I cant believe that you think that we are all that helpless and weak.
> 
> If strong morality and integrity are there, no one will be able to manipulate someone or make cheat.


A strong presence or morality and integrity are what sometimes make infidelity even easier. In my younger years, and before I was married, I had been involved with 6 different married women. I didn't pursue these women just for sh1ts and giggles. I set out to learn so much more about women that keeping within boundaries would have denied me. 

What I learned is that even if temporary, women long to play a different role than what society allows them. Women are suppose to be the decent, moralizing force in our culture. Feeling sometimes repressed, women devour romance novels and movies, stories in which women were adventerous, even taking on the capacity of good and evil as men can. 

Nobody in this world feels whole and complete. We have this gap in our character of something we want or need but we can't get on our own. If you are married, that is exactly how you fell in love. You met someone who seemed to fill those gaps. The process is usually involuntary. Once we meet that person, we take risks and hope they return our love. 

By paying close attention to someone, thier clothes, comments, gestures, their material style, looks in their eyes, their talk about past romances, past failures and past successes, future successes, etc... all these things slowly put together, start to outline their missing pieces and those gaps come into clear view. People are always giving out signals as to what they lack, whether an illusion of it or reality. 

If those things that they lack start to come from another person, that person has tremendous power over them, and they have no suspicions. If you believe having strong morals and integrity are affair buffers, you are mistaken. The keys to a willing infidelity are to lower suspicions and an ease of resistance. The easiest way to achieve this is to allow the other person to believe they are stronger, and more in control of things. If all this were untrue, there wouldn't be so many willing victims.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> A strong presence or morality and integrity are what sometimes make infidelity even easier. In my younger years, and before I was married, I had been involved with 6 different married women. I didn't pursue these women just for sh1ts and giggles. I set out to learn so much more about women that keeping within boundaries would have denied me.
> 
> What I learned is that even if temporary, women long to play a different role than what society allows them. Women are suppose to be the decent, moralizing force in our culture. Feeling sometimes repressed, women devour romance novels and movies, stories in which women were adventerous, even taking on the capacity of good and evil as men can.
> 
> ...


There may be many willing people, but there are also many unwilling ones.I know loads of people with strong moral values who would never cheat, many of whom are in long faithful marriages. 
The people I know who cheated were the ones who had the lower morals, who didn't value integrity or keeping promises made, who found is easy to lie and deceive. Its just not in many of us to be like that. 

I am sorry that you felt it was ok to risk breaking up all those marriages. Many people would never do that no matter what was happening in their lives or marriages. So what if many people have gaps, there is far more mess and pain after an affair.
There is such a thing as self control and having good boundaries.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> The people I know who cheated were the ones who had the lower morals, who didn't value integrity or keeping promises made, who found is easy to lie and deceive.
> 
> I am sorry that you felt it was ok to risk breaking up all those marriages. .


There are many more people you know (perhaps even those you deem with strong moral and integrity standards) that have been involved in affairs, they were just never exposed. Of the 6 women I was involved with, none of the marriages have broken apart. To my knowledge, none of these women ever discussed it with their husbands. In any case though, a willing single male in an affair has no vows, no promises, or obligations to the parties involved. What makes a guy like that so dangerous and driven, is that he has nothing to lose and so much to learn. 

Most of what I have learned from cheating, ironically, I've learned from women. Additionally, I learned how to establish, maintain, and neutralize an affair long before pagers, cell phones, GPS, e-mail, spyware, and electronic devices such as voice activated recorders even existed... essentially every tool TAM members suggest for everyone in detail for exposing suspicious acitivity and affairs. 

Women do not find it easy to lie and decieve. They just need a little help... without realizing they're actually getting it. 

The only personal path I have discovered which minimizes a woman to cheat has nothing to do with morals and integrity. It is simply not placing so many limitations and boundaries on her. I'm her companion, not her owner.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> There are many more people you know (perhaps even those you deem with strong moral and integrity standards) that have been involved in affairs, they were just never exposed. Of the 6 women I was involved with, none of the marriages have broken apart. To my knowledge, none of these women ever discussed it with their husbands. In any case though, a willing single male in an affair has no vows, no promises, or obligations to the parties involved. What makes a guy like that so dangerous and driven, is that he has nothing to lose and so much to learn.
> 
> Most of what I have learned from cheating, ironically, I've learned from women. Additionally, I learned how to establish, maintain, and neutralize an affair long before pagers, cell phones, GPS, e-mail, spyware, and electronic devices such as voice activated recorders even existed... essentially every tool TAM members suggest for everyone in detail for exposing suspicious acitivity and affairs.
> 
> ...



We will have to agree to disagree. I don't have it in me to lie ever, nor to cheat. I couldn't live with myself for a day if I did that. My strong conscience wouldn't let me. 
Strong moral values and sensible boundaries are in place for many marriages and people, and many don't cheat. 

if 50% of married people cheat, which is what I read recently, that leaves countless millions who never do. You clearly mixed with the wrong sort of people. 

My husband had a not very happy 23 year first marriage.He had opportunities to cheat. He never did despite his unhappiness. He has the strongest moral values of any one I know. Plus he can never keep anything from me, I know immediately if he is. He doesn't have it in him to lie. I know many more like him as well, good people who believe in keeping the promises they made to their spouses, who have a sense of responsibility towards their children and who know that being faithful is vital. 

I have no respect at all for men or women who go after other peoples spouses. Its the lowest of the low. :frown2: Their poor husbands.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. I don't have it in me to lie ever, nor to cheat. I couldn't live with myself for a day if I did that. My strong conscience wouldn't let me.
> Strong moral values and sensible boundaries are in place for many marriages and people, and many don't cheat.
> 
> if 50% of married people cheat, which is what I read recently, that leaves countless millions who never do. You clearly mixed with the wrong sort of people.
> ...


I dont know if 50% of married people cheat, but even assuming that is true, I agree that it is also true that millions more don't. That isn't to say they aren't capable of it, or that they are too strong, it is a solid possibility that the person strong enough to disarm them just hasn't crossed their path. 

And I wouldn't mind if you developed a negative opinion about who I am or who I was. Opinions are what help make us each individual. I encourage opinion. If I were to live my life confined to the limits and boundaries of other's, or if I was to concern myself much with the opinions of other's, those limits, boundaries, and opinions would then become mine and I would eventually disregard my own. I see how much it isn't working and I'd rather not live that way.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Great input.

We will dive into the psychology of the married infidels after the next post (forgiveness). We are going to introduce a lot of information that makes it a bit more complex than the typical narrative.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> There are many more people you know (perhaps even those you deem with strong moral and integrity standards) that have been involved in affairs, they were just never exposed. Of the 6 women I was involved with, none of the marriages have broken apart. To my knowledge, none of these women ever discussed it with their husbands. In any case though, a willing single male in an affair has no vows, no promises, or obligations to the parties involved. What makes a guy like that so dangerous and driven, is that he has nothing to lose and so much to learn.
> 
> Most of what I have learned from cheating, ironically, I've learned from women. Additionally, I learned how to establish, maintain, and neutralize an affair long before pagers, cell phones, GPS, e-mail, spyware, and electronic devices such as voice activated recorders even existed... essentially every tool TAM members suggest for everyone in detail for exposing suspicious acitivity and affairs.
> 
> ...


The bolded sounds very interesting, Apexmale. Could you elaborate, please?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> I dont know if 50% of married people cheat, but even assuming that is true, I agree that it is also true that millions more don't. *That isn't to say they aren't capable of it, or that they are too strong, it is a solid possibility that the person strong enough to disarm them just hasn't crossed their path. *
> 
> And I wouldn't mind if you developed a negative opinion about who I am or who I was. Opinions are what help make us each individual. I encourage opinion. If I were to live my life confined to the limits and boundaries of other's, or if I was to concern myself much with the opinions of other's, those limits, boundaries, and opinions would then become mine and I would eventually disregard my own. I see how much it isn't working and I'd rather not live that way.


The bolded seems quite truthful to me, and merits humble reflection.

Thank you for sharing it, Apexmale.


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## destroyd (Feb 20, 2015)

There's truth in the above about a person even with strong morals and healthy boundaries crossing paths with the "right" (or actually wrong) individual. I'm absolutely convinced if my WW's particular OM never came into her sphere we would not have had to take the trip down the road of infidelity. People on here always say, "if it hadn't of been him, it would have been someone else". Many cases that may be true, but in my case, this bastard OM just had my wife's number.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> The bolded sounds very interesting, Apexmale. Could you elaborate, please?


Which part?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> Which part?


This: "_The only personal path I have discovered which minimizes a woman to cheat has nothing to do with morals and integrity. It is simply not placing so many limitations and boundaries on her. I'm her companion, not her owner."_

In particular, the part about not placing so many limitations and boundaries.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> This: "_The only personal path I have discovered which minimizes a woman to cheat has nothing to do with morals and integrity. It is simply not placing so many limitations and boundaries on her. I'm her companion, not her owner."_
> 
> In particular, the part about not placing so many limitations and boundaries.


As children, our lives are mostly pleasure and play. As adults, women often have feelings of being cut off from this paradise, of being weighed down by responsibilities, roles, limits, and boundaries. Over time, this repression of a woman creates a hidden portion of who she is. That portion of themselves is dying to be overwhelmed. Every woman is oppressed by the role she is supposed to play in society. She is supposed to be the softer, moralizing force in society, and is told she is suppose to want lifelong loyalty and commitment. None of these things are her choice. Limits and boundaries placed on a woman start at a very young age. The majority of women conform to whatever is normal for them at the time. They play the role alloted to them by society. Beginning with her parents, then as they progress in life, friends and society impose rules in which she must follow to fit in. Conformity is a constant because humans are social creatures who are always imitating eachother. Too often, when a woman marries, it is the the norm that a husband places additional restrictions on her involving what she can wear, who she can talk to, where she can work, and how she carries herself as a married woman. Too often, her relationships and marriage give her nothing but routine and a husband who is demanding and always working. A woman then creates in herself a fantasy of having a man who commits himself to her in his entirety, free of expectations, he lives for her, he lusts for her, even if just for awhile. 

A woman is born with her own body. She always remains free to give that body to whomever she decides. Whether it goes to a man, or a woman makes no difference. The choice remains hers. When a man comes along and demands ownership, either through a simple relationship or through marriage, it's nothing more than a false claim. No man can own a woman and the very first chance she gets, she will prove it to him. These forums are full of stories of women who did just that. Being married made no difference. 

Husbands repress thier wives more than what she has already been repressed before they met. To a woman, fantasy is much more pleasurable to her than the reality she has already experienced. Some of the easiest examples come in the form of the care a woman takes with her hair, her make-up, her jewels, her wardrobes.... not much of these things that a man takes great notice in is the actual woman herself. The role a woman was given is not the role she has to always accept. She can always live out a role of her own creation and many times, it is directly tied to her repressed desires.

A man who understands this concept of lifting a woman's limitations and boundaries has a great appeal to a woman. By restoring a woman to her whole self, she will never feel more alive and never feel more of a committment to this man. Again, even if it's just temporary.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Apexmale said:


> As children, our lives are mostly pleasure and play. As adults, women often have feelings of being cut off from this paradise, of being weighed down by responsibilities, roles, limits, and boundaries. Over time, this repression of a woman creates a hidden portion of who she is. That portion of themselves is dying to be overwhelmed. Every woman is oppressed by the role she is supposed to play in society. She is supposed to be the softer, moralizing force in society, and is told she is suppose to want lifelong loyalty and commitment. None of these things are her choice. Limits and boundaries placed on a woman start at a very young age. The majority of women conform to whatever is normal for them at the time. They play the role alloted to them by society. Beginning with her parents, then as they progress in life, friends and society impose rules in which she must follow to fit in. Conformity is a constant because humans are social creatures who are always imitating eachother. Too often, when a woman marries, it is the the norm that a husband places additional restrictions on her involving what she can wear, who she can talk to, where she can work, and how she carries herself as a married woman. Too often, her relationships and marriage give her nothing but routine and a husband who is demanding and always working. A woman then creates in herself a fantasy of having a man who commits himself to her in his entirety, free of expectations, he lives for her, he lusts for her, even if just for awhile.
> 
> A woman is born with her own body. She always remains free to give that body to whomever she decides. Whether it goes to a man, or a woman makes no difference. The choice remains hers. When a man comes along and demands ownership, either through a simple relationship or through marriage, it's nothing more than a false claim. No man can own a woman and the very first chance she gets, she will prove it to him. These forums are full of stories of women who did just that. Being married made no difference.
> 
> ...


Um... That sounds really good, and briefs well, until one considers that men can only legally take from a woman but she is willingly giving away (and vice versa).

Your assumption in this post opines that:

1. Women have no agency to either prevent it from happening or to say something when it has happened.

2. Male spouses are systematically setting about to restrict their female partners.

It reads like a cliched script from a bad Lifetime movie, and while it no doubt does happen, I would argue that it is much more the exception than the rule.

If a woman has to hide herself from her husband, either she has problems with communication or she chose poorly her husband.

Additionally, I would further argue that better than half (and likely closer to three quarters) of the cases that present themselves here and sites like SI are because of a lack of boundaries in a relationship.

Yes, children seek out pleasure and play. Adults have to make adult decisions, which includes making sacrifices. There ain't no free lunch; marriage is no different. If a man running roughshod over a woman in a marriage is so prevalent, why is NMMNG recommended to nearly every male poster that sets foot in this site? 

Frankly, there needs to be less emphasis on trying to figure out why both men and women make poor choices, and more time spent emphasizing taking back their agency. With agency comes responsibility. When we understand that we are responsible for our decisions, and all of the consequences that come along with them, suddenly there is a greater emphasis on making the right ones. This is why we see over and over and over again the effectiveness of showing any wayward spouse, whether male or female, consequences for their choice to cheat.

But then again, that requires that we grow up. And going back to your original post, there's almost a suggestion that women don't want to. I'm not necessarily buying that, as there was just a post earlier today by @turnera suggesting that wives have to wait for their husbands to grow up. So, which is it?

The more I think about it, and the longer I'm here, I believe more and more that it comes down to the fact that the world is filled with selfish jerks. We make decisions that hurt people because we're selfish. That's not a man or a woman thing, but a people thing. Anything else anybody sells trying to be gender-specific often smells like the stuff I periodically shovel from my barn.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_If a man running roughshod over a woman in a marriage is so prevalent, why is NMMNG recommended to nearly every male poster that sets foot in this site? _
@farsidejunky

Remember, this site attracts a certain type of man, usually men who feel victimized by women. So while NMMNG might be a helpful read for these men, it may not fit other men.

It is like a board for men having gluten issues. Those men need specific advice for dealing with it. But if the majority of men do not suffer from it, they likely have no need for that advice.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> _If a man running roughshod over a woman in a marriage is so prevalent, why is NMMNG recommended to nearly every male poster that sets foot in this site? _
> 
> @farsidejunky
> 
> ...


So, following that same logic, should I also point out to @turnera that this site only attract certain types of women, and tell her she's wrong as well?

And just what is that certain type of woman that this site attracts?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> So, following that same logic, should I also point out to @turnera that this site only attract certain types of women, and tell her she's wrong as well?
> 
> And just what is that certain type of woman that this site attracts?


Do you think it does attract only one type of woman?

Just because something may be true for one sex does not mean it will necessarily be true for the other. I think relationship forums may attract a variety of types of women, but only a narrow range of men.

Jmo.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Do you think it does attract only one type of woman?
> 
> Just because something may be true for one sex does not mean it will necessarily be true for the other. I think relationship forums may attract a variety of types of women, but only a narrow range of men.
> 
> Jmo.


I spell confirmation bias.

ETA:

I believe there is a range for both sexes. I believe it men impacted by infidelity are more likely to come to a site than women simply because we are typically not as good at maintaining social networks in real life.

So I will agree there are trends, but I believe your assessment of a narrow range of men is confirmation bias.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I spell confirmation bias.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> ...


How do you see confirmation bias?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> A man who understands this concept of lifting a woman's limitations and boundaries has a great appeal to a woman. By restoring a woman to her whole self, she will never feel more alive and never feel more of a committment to this man. Again, even if it's just temporary.


Could you elaborate on these ideas, please, Apexmale? I am not quite following you.

How do you "lift a woman's limitations and boundaries"? 

How exactly is a woman "restored to her whole self"? 

How does that cause a commitment to a man, and why would it just be temporary?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Um... That sounds really good, and briefs well, until one considers that men can only legally take from a woman but she is willingly giving away (and vice versa).


I can only speak from what my personal experience has taught me. My personal experience includes relationships with 6 different married women in my younger, single days. And I learned a hell of a lot.

And you are right in that men can only take what willing women will offer. The goal, is to get her to offer what you want. And if sex is the goal, lifting boundaries and limitations has been (for me), the key. Knowing these things as a married man serves no other function than to understand how to protect my own marriage.



farsidejunky said:


> Your assumption in this post opines that:
> 
> 1. Women have no agency to either prevent it from happening or to say something when it has happened.


Aren't parents the first to begin dictating to daughters what is acceptable behavior and what is not? This process is unpreventable. We all become obliviois to the process and we continue it well into adulthood. Individual repression continues into womanhood a lot longer than it does for men.



farsidejunky said:


> 2. Male spouses are systematically setting about to restrict their female partners.


Do husbands not tell thier wives, either directly or indirectly, what she can wear, who is acceptable to converse with, where she can work, and what activity she can partake in to name a few?

Read around these forums about men having difficulty with what their spouses have worn or what their spouses are now wearing. 

Read around these forums about disgruntled men whose wives are having conversations that they deem "inappropriate" behavior.

Read around these forums about jealous husbands who are having difficulty with activity at their wives place of employment.

Read around these forums about men who are discussing the difficulty in "allowing" their wives out dancing with her friends or even staying out late.

It's my experience, that I support my own wife in whatever she wants to wear, wherever she wants to wear it, and however she wants to wear it. If it's low cut, a short skirt, or even if it involves Daisy Dukes... the choice is hers nonetheless. And I tell you, I'm happy she does sometimes! It's also my experience that if she wants to go clubbing with her friends, she can. If she wants to stay out late on "girls night out", she can. The minute I begin to tell my wife what she can and cannot do, I risk another man crossing her path reiterating to her she really can.





farsidejunky said:


> If a woman has to hide herself from her husband, either she has problems with communication or she chose poorly her husband.


Every man and woman hides a portion of themselves from the other.





farsidejunky said:


> When we understand that we are responsible for our decisions, and all of the consequences that come along with them, suddenly there is a greater emphasis on making the right ones. This is why we see over and over and over again the effectiveness of showing any wayward spouse, whether male or female, consequences for their choice to cheat.


As a single male, and as stated earlier, there were no consequences for me. I had no vows to anyone, no promises, and no obligations. I had nothing to lose, and so much to learn. 

You know that sound you sometimes hear of something falling inside the cubbard when you close the door? That is the sound of someone else's problem.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Additionally, I would further argue that better than half (and likely closer to three quarters) of the cases that present themselves here and sites like SI are because of a lack of boundaries in a relationship.


But why are the boundaries breached, far? Isn't that the more important question? 

If your wife does not actually cheat, but burns in her heart for another man, does that really make you feel better?



> Frankly, there needs to be less emphasis on trying to figure out why both men and women make poor choices, and more time spent emphasizing taking back their agency. With agency comes responsibility. When we understand that we are responsible for our decisions, and all of the consequences that come along with them, suddenly there is a greater emphasis on making the right ones. This is why we see over and over and over again the effectiveness of showing any wayward spouse, whether male or female, consequences for their choice to cheat.


Is that what we really want, though, people who do not cheat because they are fearful of the consequences? Does that really make either of them feel loved and safe in the relationship?

Is the simple absence of cheating _enough_?



> But then again, that requires that we grow up. And going back to your original post, there's almost a suggestion that women don't want to. I'm not necessarily buying that, as there was just a post earlier today by @turnera suggesting that wives have to wait for their husbands to grow up. So, which is it?


Why would it have to be just one or the other? 



> The more I think about it, and the longer I'm here, I believe more and more that it comes down to the fact that the world is filled with selfish jerks. We make decisions that hurt people because we're selfish. That's not a man or a woman thing, but a people thing. Anything else anybody sells trying to be gender-specific often smells like the stuff I periodically shovel from my barn.


Far, if you do not think there are differences between men and women . . . then I just do not know what to say.

Some people purposely do things to be hurtful. Some people simply do not realize what they are doing. Some people get in over their heads. And there can be combinations of all of these.

Life is messy. Humans are complicated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> Individual repression continues into womanhood a lot longer than it does for men.


I think RT addressed that when he said that men are often congratulated for having affairs, while women do not usually get that sort of affirmation. Is that correct, @Relationship Teacher?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> I can only speak from what my personal experience has taught me. My personal experience includes relationships with 6 different married women in my younger, single days. And I learned a hell of a lot.
> 
> And you are right in that men can only take what willing women will offer. The goal, is to get her to offer what you want. And if sex is the goal, lifting boundaries and limitations has been (for me), the key. Knowing these things as a married man serves no other function than to understand how to protect my own marriage.
> 
> ...


This is just mumbo jumbo from a wanna be player who could only score with married women who were having problems in their marriages and vulnerable to some would be pick up artist.How did you fare out with single women of your own age.I wouldn't think you did very well.Trying to justify ruining someone's marriage because you have the amazing abilities to spot a vulnerable woman isn't that impressive dude.You do realise that these women were playing you as much if not more than you were playing them.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> This is just mumbo jumbo from a wanna be player who could only score with married women who were having problems in their marriages and vulnerable to some would be pick up artist.How did you fare out with single women of your own age.I wouldn't think you did very well.Trying to justify ruining someone's marriage because you have the amazing abilities to spot a vulnerable woman isn't that impressive dude.You do realise that these women were playing you as much if not more than you were playing them.


I had plenty of "regular relationships". Not enough in my opinion and too many in my wife's opinion.

You can believe it's all mumbo jumbo, in fact it's required for the process. Men who deny themselves the reality that mindsets of that type, such as mine in my youth, exists in men is what is so crucial to be that much more effective.

And as stated before, none of the marriages broke apart and to my knowledge, none of the women discussed thier activity with their husbands.

And yes, these women played me too. I was quite alright with it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> I had plenty of "regular relationships". Not enough in my opinion and too many in my wife's opinion.
> 
> You can believe it's all mumbo jumbo, in fact it's required for the process. Men who deny themselves the reality that mindsets of that type, such as mine in my youth, exists in men is what is so crucial to be that much more effective.
> 
> ...


In my younger days I slept with a hell of a lot of women,I'm not boasting it's just a fact.I never knowingly hit on a married or engaged woman and quite frankly,these conquests of yours just seen a sad young man who was afraid of girls his own age and they fancied a bit of young c*** so you were as good as anyone else. Don't make yourself out to be some sort of Don Juan,you were as much in need of company as they were.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> *In my younger days I slept with a hell of a lot of women,I'm not boasting it's just a fact.*I never knowingly hit on a married or engaged woman and quite frankly,these conquests of yours just seen a sad young man who was afraid of girls his own age and they fancied a bit of young c*** so you were as good as anyone else. Don't make yourself out to be some sort of Don Juan,you were as much in need of company as they were.


Far, do you see the bolded? Do you think women here would say this? Or do you think they would feel lots of pressure to hide their partner count?

You really do not believe there are differences between the sexes?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> In my younger days I slept with a hell of a lot of women,I'm not boasting it's just a fact.I never knowingly hit on a married or engaged woman and quite frankly,these conquests of yours just seen a sad young man who was afraid of girls his own age and they fancied a bit of young c*** so you were as good as anyone else. Don't make yourself out to be some sort of Don Juan,you were as much in need of company as they were.


As I also stated before, I sought out a woman of interest as all men do. Difference was that I did not discriminate. I learned a hell of a lot. As I'm older and married, I no longer depend on my youthfull experiences to gain more experiences, I use them in order to be able to defend my marriage from those individuals who are the most dangerous to it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> As I also stated before, I sought out a woman of interest as all men do. Difference was that I did not discriminate. I learned a hell of a lot. As I'm older and married, I no longer depend on my youthfull experiences to gain more experiences, I use them in order to be able to defend my marriage from those individuals who are the most dangerous to it.


We had a name for guys like you.
Granny snatchers.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> We had a name for guys like you.
> Granny snatchers.


I'll take on any name. Name calling was the least of my concerns.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> I can only speak from what my personal experience has taught me. My personal experience includes relationships with 6 different married women in my younger, single days. And I learned a hell of a lot.
> 
> 
> Every man and woman hides a portion of themselves from the other.
> ...


Oh...there were certainly consequences to your adulterous behavior. There's always consequences to sin. With you, it's evidenced clearly in your completely wayward thinking and inability, as you describe above, to share yourself intimately or even expect intimacy in your own marital relationship. Your previous predatory behavior on weak women you somehow double speak into providing them {and yourself} a gift of escapism and fantasy only they didn't know you were pretending to give them what they didn't know they wanted. You just preyed upon their loneliness and disillusion. 

Was your current wife married when you met her??? I just surmise because it would be consistent with your 'enlightened' thought pattern.

On August 19, 2016 you wrote the following and I wonder if this is still true? That you mean to give others advice about infidelity, marriage and commitment, while poking fun at our silly and close-minded notions of monogamy and rebuilding our marriages when you really just came here for information about destroying yours: 



Apexmale 8/19/2016 said:


> I come to TAM to learn HOW to cheat. The knowledge posted in these forums is crucial to planning and conducting a successfull affair.


IMO, being an unregretful unrepentant OM 6 times over {especially still bragging about it years later} is about as "Beta" as a {person pretending to be a man} can get. I'm also speaking from experience. I was never an OM {that I know of} but I certainly lived a portion of my life defining myself by money, power and women. It's tough to look back and see it for the disgusting vile vulgar behavior it truly was and realize how much it messed you up. The resulting consequences to me were inevitable just as they currently are to you. You're 41 years old ~ time to grow up.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> I think RT addressed that when he said that men are often congratulated for having affairs, while women do not usually get that sort of affirmation. Is that correct, @Relationship Teacher?


That is going to be part of "subjective norms". To best explain this topic, we need to look at traditional masculinity and traditional femininity. A lot of these aspects I research as they relate to sexual dysfunction, which implies there is room for us to venture into it in the context of infidelity. I have some plenty of research that I can bring to the table, but I think I need to look in a bit of a different direction to best address the disparity.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> That is going to be part of "subjective norms". To best explain this topic, we need to look at traditional masculinity and traditional femininity. A lot of these aspects I research as they relate to sexual dysfunction, which implies there is room for us to venture into it in the context of infidelity. I have some plenty of research that I can bring to the table, but I think I need to look in a bit of a different direction to best address the disparity.


Thank you for your response, RT.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> As I also stated before, I sought out a woman of interest as all men do. Difference was that I did not discriminate. I learned a hell of a lot. As I'm older and married, I no longer depend on my youthfull experiences to gain more experiences, I use them in order to be able to defend my marriage from those individuals who are the most dangerous to it.


How the heck do you THINK you are "defending" your marriage?

No limits, no boundaries, no rules, no expectations, no accountability and no intimacy.

She can do whatever she wants and lie if she wants to because with absolute trust and freedom she's supposedly less likely to want to stray because she's got it so good with you.

I saw you mention concepts like:

"Progress drives happiness, not emotions"
"Familiarity is the death sentence of seduction"

So despite being married 4-8 years it appears you're still playing by "pick up artist" rules as though your wife was some single woman to be manipulated and seduced.

I also read your fixation with portraying your wife as your companion and that you don't own her but, to me, I have to wonder how your youthful experiences as a manipulative OM, help you defend your marriage now. I have to imagine that you simply seek to provide her with the "escape and naughty fantasies" you provided to those desperate women years ago on a regular intermittent basis such that she doesn't have any need to seek it ever herself. That you "attach" and "detach" with regularity to avoid familiarity. But you can never truly replicate the depravity of an OM and an active wayward wife in a truly loving relationship and playing PUA games into your 40's with your wife is just sad. It's not real and if she seems to like this, she probably has just as much fear of intimacy as you. If this is how you are protecting your marriage, your wife might just end up leaving you because your marriage lacks maturity, depth and character. 

Please don't have children until you sort this all out.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> Oh...there were certainly consequences to your adulterous behavior. There's always consequences to sin. With you, it's evidenced clearly in your completely wayward thinking and inability, as you describe above, to share yourself intimately or even expect intimacy in your own marital relationship. Your previous predatory behavior on weak women you somehow double speak into providing them {and yourself} a gift of escapism and fantasy only they didn't know you were pretending to give them what they didn't know they wanted. You just preyed upon their loneliness and disillusion.
> 
> Was your current wife married when you met her??? I just surmise because it would be consistent with your 'enlightened' thought pattern.
> 
> ...


Did you just quote me on an entire paragraph, half of it in which I did'nt author? Such an emotional man. Mistakes are made when you're filled by emotions. You see how easy that was? Thanks for helping me prove my points.

Anywho, none of the women were weak, I would have learned nothing had it been so. 

My wife was single when I met her.

I can teach infidelity from my experience as having played the OM. If you have never been the OM, you have absolutely nothing to teach from that position and clearly everything to be mad about. So, be mad at me I guess. 

I am not bragging about being the OM, what I am doing is sharing my experiences with those who want to arm themselves with additional insight on how to defend themselves against one. I do brag though, that I am a one time husband. 

Whether your feelings get hurt when I share my negative experiences concerns me none. I've never been good at consoling other men when dealing with their hurt feelings, and I'd rather not get that experience. Next thing you'll be angry about is my refusal to give you a hug. Have a nice day guy.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> How the heck do you THINK you are "defending" your marriage?
> 
> No limits, no boundaries, no rules, no expectations, no accountability and no intimacy.
> 
> ...


Less limitations and less boundaries requires a higher level of trust. I don't expect you to understand that judging by your last 2 responses. 

And women will do what they choose anyhow. That is because they have their own minds and make their own choices. Read these forums, you'll see the endless stories of adults doing what they wanted to do despite limits and boundaries. 

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> Did you just quote me on an entire paragraph, half of it in which I did'nt author? Such an emotional man. Mistakes are made when you're filled by emotions. You see how easy that was? Thanks for helping me prove my points.
> 
> Anywho, none of the women were weak, I would have learned nothing had it been so.
> 
> ...


Have you thought about starting a thread on your experience, and how other men and women could learn to avoid these problems in marriage, too?

Sorry if you have already done this. Just thought it would be a way for others to learn from your experience. I appreciate what you have said here, but it might be worth its own thread.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on these ideas, please, Apexmale? I am not quite following you.
> 
> How do you "lift a woman's limitations and boundaries"?
> 
> ...


By convincing her to ignore the things for which she is responsible; family, children, chores, and such that she has chosen to bring into her life.

Simply put, this is the selling of the fantasy of the affair. All those things get left behind, and the only thing that's left is pleasure... get her attention establish rapport, wedge, sell, flatter, close. It worked more times than I can count, to include multiple times with at least two married women, long before I was ever married the first time in 1999. 

It isn't hard if you know what to look for.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> But why are the boundaries breached, far? Isn't that the more important question?
> 
> If your wife does not actually cheat, but burns in her heart for another man, does that really make you feel better?
> 
> ...


Several reasons. Resentment, poor communication on the part of the wayward, no buy in, boredom, attention-seeking, escapism, poor character Tom the list goes on.

The nature of today's world makes it impossible for one to prevent a wayward spouse from cheating. There are too many available means and methods.

Apex male is making the point that gaming his spouse with certain extent reduces the likelihood. I don't disagree with that necessarily, but is at the expense of emotional intimacy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> By convincing her to ignore the things for which she is responsible; family, children, chores, and such; she has chosen to bring into her life.
> 
> Simply put, this is the selling of the fantasy of the affair. All those things get left behind, and the only thing that's left is pleasure... get her attention establish report, wage, sell, flatter, close. It worked more times than I can count, to include multiple times with at least two married women, long before I was ever married the first time in 1999.
> 
> It isn't hard if you know what to look for.


He was talking about how to have an affair with a woman? I thought he was talking about how a husband could _prevent_ his wife's having an affair.
@Apexmale, could you address this, please?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> Have you thought about starting a thread on your experience, and how other men and women could learn to avoid these problems in marriage, too?
> 
> Sorry if you have already done this. Just thought it would be a way for others to learn from your experience. I appreciate what you have said here, but it might be worth its own thread.


I decided against it long ago. 

Where women in these forums are more receptive to learn, men are not. Women would learn how to easier identify a guy who has targeted them when he is in their presence.

Men though, are presented with the only platform in which to confront the "OM" and do so without giving themselves an opportunity to learn. Men are very uncomfortable being hurt, and are much more comfortable being angry. Hence the reaction you see here.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Several reasons. Resentment, poor communication on the part of the wayward, no buy in, boredom, attention-seeking, escapism, poor character Tom the list goes on.
> 
> The nature of today's world makes it impossible for one to prevent a wayward spouse from cheating. There are too many available means and methods.
> 
> Apex male is making the point that gaming his spouse with certain extent reduces the likelihood. I don't disagree with that necessarily, but is at the expense of emotional intimacy.


Okay, maybe I misunderstood him. I thought he was trying to _promote_ emotional intimacy in marriage, through the development of trust, rather than trying to control a spouse.

Again, @Apexmale, could you address this?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> He was talking about how to have an affair with a woman? I thought he was talking about how a husband could _prevent_ his wife's having an affair.
> 
> @Apexmale, could you address this, please?


Exactly! I am talking about my personal experiences and how they help me better defend my own marriage. 

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> Did you just quote me on an entire paragraph, half of it in which I did'nt author? Such an emotional man. Mistakes are made when you're filled by emotions. You see how easy that was? Thanks for helping me prove my points.


What are you talking about. I don't see a quoting error. I've made quoting errors before but where above did I misquote you? Your post from August 2016 is accurate. I just double checked.



Apexmale said:


> Anywho, none of the women were weak, I would have learned nothing had it been so.


They fell for your OM "game" ~ that's pretty weak but I suppose it's all relative. You weren't exactly behaving that manly at the time either so I can see from your wayward perception you might have thought these women were so very brave and courageous stepping out on their husbands and kids to have adulterous sexual fuax-intimate aduterous sexual relations with you. 



Apexmale said:


> My wife was single when I met her.


Then you might want to learn how real "defended" monogamous relationship work in the real world. Your "experiences" with depraved weak wayward wives in the past didn't teach you how to be a better husband. Instead, you seem to now be dwelling on the experiences as your enlightening unique perspective on relationships. This is not healthy for you {or your marriage} to be constantly thinking and talking about. You are not an OM anymore {though you still sound like one and that's not a good thing}. 



Apexmale said:


> I can teach infidelity from my experience as having played the OM. If you have never been the OM, you have absolutely nothing to teach from that position and clearly everything to be mad about. So, be mad at me I guess.


Kind of like a rapist teaching me how to have satisfying aggressive sex. 



Apexmale said:


> I am not bragging about being the OM, what I am doing is sharing my experiences with those who want to arm themselves with additional insight on how to defend themselves against one. I do brag though, that I am a one time husband.


Again, a predatory self-confessed rapist providing insight how to protect our wives from getting manipulated and raped. It's vulgar, IMO, but that's just me. I'm not a moderator or pretending to be one. Just sharing my experience as an offended former betrayed husband.




Apexmale said:


> Whether your feelings get hurt when I share my negative experiences concerns me none. I've never been good at consoling other men when dealing with their hurt feelings, and I'd rather not get that experience. Next thing you'll be angry about is my refusal to give you a hug. Have a nice day guy.


"negative experiences"? I thought you didn't regret them and celebrated all you've learned from these 6 wonderful wayward wives? 

Again, I'm just here sharing my experiences. It's been two decades since my wife cheated and we've long since recovered so my feelings aren't hurt and I don't need a hug {you'd probably just try to manipulate me into bed anyway}. I just think it's vulgar and your experiences as an OM seem rather inapplicable to "RT's ultimate affair plan" which, I believe, is intended to eventually help couples RECOVER from the interference and manipulations of men like you. I don't think it's a guide to help regular couples avoid falling into traps of infidelity or protecting/defending your spouse from interlopers other than as a function of recovery, at which time most aren't going to be very happy taking advice from a perpetrator discussing ways to manipulate married women. Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> Okay, maybe I misunderstood him. I thought he was trying to _promote_ emotional intimacy in marriage, through the development of trust, rather than trying to control a spouse.
> 
> Again, @Apexmale, could you address this?


My wife is free to be who she wants to be. We have a great marriage with everything functioning as required. We have an uncommon intimacy level that comes from being able to trust without set parameters. The concept of trusting one another, while at the same time setting up limits and boundaries for one another, is alien to us. In fact, it would be damaging.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> I decided against it long ago.
> 
> Where women in these forums are more receptive to learn, men are not. Women would learn how to easier identify a guy who has targeted them when he is in their presence.
> 
> ...


There is a lot of truth to what you say here, Apexmale, sadly.

I would just like to ask you, humbly and sincerely, to consider starting a thread, maybe in Ladies' Lounge, where women could learn from you. Men would not have to pay attention to it, since it would not be meant for them. But I bet some women would appreciate learning how to avoid predators. Like it or not, predators are out there. And women are vulnerable. Or at least some are.

It might be possible to get mod protection if you think some people would harass you. Again, the purpose is to become aware of infidelity traps and learn how to avoid them. And you could be a resource for that.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> What are you talking about. I don't see a quoting error. I've made quoting errors before but where above did I misquote you? Your post from August 2016 is accurate. I just double checked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You see jld? What we have here is an angry man. Lol

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> My wife is free to be who she wants to be. We have a great marriage with everything functioning as required. We have an uncommon intimacy level that comes from being able to trust without set parameters. The concept of trusting one another, while at the same time setting up limits and boundaries for one another, is alien to us. In fact, it would be damaging.


Yeah, Dug and I are not big on "limits" and "boundaries," either. It sounds very controlling.

We are huge on transparency and empathy, though. I don't think there is anything I could say or do that would stop my husband from loving me. He is very strong.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> Yeah, Dug and I are not big on "limits" and "boundaries," either. It sounds very controlling.
> 
> We are huge on transparency and empathy, though. I don't think there is anything I could say or do that would stop my husband from loving me. He is very strong.


Transparency is paramount.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> You see jld? What we have here is an angry man. Lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


I think you are right. One of the mods here, @MEM2020, a very kind and understanding man, has said that anger covers fear and pain. Angry people often mask their fear and pain with aggression.

It would be nice to foster an environment here where people could express their fear and their pain without feeling the need to resort to aggression.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> It would be nice to foster an environment here where people could express their fear and their pain without feeling the need to resort to aggression.


Ah, now you're talking about fantasy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> Transparency is paramount.


I totally agree. I cannot imagine my marriage without transparency. 

And you know what, Apexmale? I feel so much safer with transparency. No matter what I have done, no matter what I have even thought, I do not want any filters, any barriers, between my husband and me. I want him to know everything.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> Ah, now you're talking about fantasy.


I'm an idealist.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> I totally agree. I cannot imagine my marriage without transparency.
> 
> And you know what, Apexmale? I feel so much safer with transparency. No matter what I have done, no matter what I have even thought, I do not want any filters, any barriers, between my husband and me. I want him to know everything.


BOOM. That right there, is a marriage that will last.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Apexmale said:


> BOOM. That right there, is a marriage that will last.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Okay, maybe I misunderstood him. I thought he was trying to _promote_ emotional intimacy in marriage, through the development of trust, rather than trying to control a spouse.
> 
> Again, @Apexmale, could you address this?



But his OM experiences are the antithesis of "emotional intimacy" and he is using those as a defeatist example that, apparently ALL women have these secret desires and fantasies {think like sex with a cop in uniform ~ apexmale used to be a cop}, so in order to actually have trust in marriage you have to let your spouse do whatever they want, whenever they want, with whomever they want without any regard to the riskiness of such behavior because to do otherwise is an exercise in control and will only make them MORE interesting in breaking the chains and rules and cheating.

Complete freedom to cheat is seemingly being proffered as truly the only way to prevent cheating.

Sad thing is ~ it's how I used to think. 

What it actually demonstrates is a total lack of care. It's neglectful. It's not the behavior of a man that cherishes his wife. If you don't hold your spouse accountable for their behavior {and they yours}, who will hold anyone accountable for anything? 

My wife and I now hold each other accountable. I appreciate it and so does she. We don't "own" each other anymore than I "own" my left leg or right arm. We are intimately intertwined as "one flesh" and it's a concept and closeness that was so lacking from our early marriage when we both thought we were so progressive, cool and safe while similarly blindly trusting each other.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Please do not confuse anger with resolve and principles.



Apexmale said:


> I decided against it long ago.
> 
> Where women in these forums are more receptive to learn, men are not. Women would learn how to easier identify a guy who has targeted them when he is in their presence.
> 
> ...


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> I totally agree. I cannot imagine my marriage without transparency.
> 
> And you know what, Apexmale? I feel so much safer with transparency. No matter what I have done, no matter what I have even thought, I do not want any filters, any barriers, between my husband and me. I want him to know everything.


Here is another point to transparency and trust: Cell phone passwords and Facebook.

My wife and I both have FB accounts. Niether of us know each other's passwords. In fact, we are not even on each other's network. We both own phones that are password protected, and niether of us know each other's passwords as well.

This amazes other couples and they would never venture into that territory. But, here is what they don't know... we still have free access to our profiles. Here is how we do it:

Both our cell phones are password encrypted. Niether of us know each other's cell phone password and are unconcerned about having them. We own smartwatches and cell phones equipped with a feature called Smart Lock. Both my smartwatches are paired to my cell phone. Smart Lock provides for the adding of "Trusted Devices" which mean that as long as my wristwatch is in the vicinity of my cell phone, my cell phone remains unlocked. The moment I move too far away from my cell, the pairing is lost, I am notified, and my cell phone automatically requires a password log-in. Under the Smart Lock feature, we also added our home address as well... which means the instanct we arrive back home and the entire time we are here, our phones remain unlocked and always available. 

People fight about cell phone transparency and social media access without realizing there are options a couple can consider. Options like that help lift the require limitations and boundaries that so many other couples implement.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> ... so in order to actually have trust in marriage you have to let your spouse do whatever they want, whenever they want, with whomever they want without any regard to the riskiness of such behavior because to do otherwise is an exercise in control and will only make them MORE interesting in breaking the chains and rules.....


Thanks for the help!

Here is a man who believes women do not share the free will that men do.

Women will do as they please with or without a man's permission. To think otherwise, is actually fantasy. 



Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

In any case, if my wife cheats, the marriage is over. What she enjoys, is the freedom to make her own decisions. Every one of them.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> My wife is free to be who she wants to be. We have a great marriage with everything functioning as required. We have an uncommon intimacy level that comes from being able to trust without set parameters. The concept of trusting one another, while at the same time setting up limits and boundaries for one another, is alien to us. In fact, it would be damaging.


But this description of your marriage is in direct opposition to your post here last August.

I'll quote it again {you can click on the little arrows to take you to the actual post you made}

8/19/2016 :


Apexmale said:


> I come to TAM to learn HOW to cheat. The knowledge posted in these forums is crucial to planning and conducting a successfull affair.


I also don't know how your experiences as an OM helped teach you {or others here} that having limits and boundaries for one another is a bad idea, let alone harmful. Every wayward wife cries to their OM's about how controlling and possessive their husband's are. Even mine did and I actually used to think much more like you and thought we were special snowflakes that didn't need those silly limits and boundaries at all. It's a wayward lie. The husbands only became "controlling" once they figured out there was a fox in the henhouse. Did you ever consider that the husbands of married women you were cheating with actually should have been MORE attentive, suspicious and had stricter boundaries and limits such that you wouldn't have even had the opportunity to weasel your way into their heads in the first place. I mean, we are talking about verified unfaithful cheating women here whose husbands SHOULD HAVE BEEN untrusting. It's a complete history rewrite to indicate that maybe their wives wouldn't have cheated with you had they just been a little more trusting of them and blind trust is therefore the best policy to prevent infidelity. 

Deflecting responses with "he's so angry" is just another example of your seeming inability to have a conversation about genuine intimacy in a marital relationship. 

How is "accountability" in marriage or really any relationship, IN FACT, damaging?


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> If you don't hold your spouse accountable for their behavior {and they yours}, who will hold anyone accountable for anything?


WOW! The only behavior I, as a grown man and husband, am accountable for are my childrens. 

My wife is solely responsible for her behavior. And I am solely responsible for my own behavior. 

That is the equivalent of Quality catching a charge for Driving While Intoxicated... but expecting his wife going to jail.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> As children, our lives are mostly pleasure and play. As adults, women often have feelings of being cut off from this paradise, of being weighed down by responsibilities, roles, limits, and boundaries. Over time, this repression of a woman creates a hidden portion of who she is. That portion of themselves is dying to be overwhelmed. Every woman is oppressed by the role she is supposed to play in society. She is supposed to be the softer, moralizing force in society, and is told she is suppose to want lifelong loyalty and commitment. None of these things are her choice. Limits and boundaries placed on a woman start at a very young age. The majority of women conform to whatever is normal for them at the time. They play the role alloted to them by society. Beginning with her parents, then as they progress in life, friends and society impose rules in which she must follow to fit in. Conformity is a constant because humans are social creatures who are always imitating eachother. Too often, when a woman marries, it is the the norm that a husband places additional restrictions on her involving what she can wear, who she can talk to, where she can work, and how she carries herself as a married woman. Too often, her relationships and marriage give her nothing but routine and a husband who is demanding and always working. A woman then creates in herself a fantasy of having a man who commits himself to her in his entirety, free of expectations, he lives for her, he lusts for her, even if just for awhile.
> 
> A woman is born with her own body. She always remains free to give that body to whomever she decides. Whether it goes to a man, or a woman makes no difference. The choice remains hers. When a man comes along and demands ownership, either through a simple relationship or through marriage, it's nothing more than a false claim. No man can own a woman and the very first chance she gets, she will prove it to him. These forums are full of stories of women who did just that. Being married made no difference.
> 
> ...


Quoted for truth. Say it louder for the people in the back! :grin2:

I always knew my destiny- and the only way I could survive in this world- was to find a man who would look after me. At age sixteen, I found him. I was living out the fantasy of being the heroine of my own Disney movie. 

I happen to like, need, and depend upon my gilded cage as it were. When it's that or literal starvation, you learn to like it. I keep that hidden part of me satisfied by planning grand elaborate romantic gestures for my husband, because he doesn't often have the inclination to plan them for me. I also have friends- male and female- who provide me with the emotional support that doesn't come naturally to my husband to give. My husband knows of all my male friendships, monitors them occasionally, and allows them.

Many women don't take well to societal repression. Many women cheat because they want out of said cage. Still others cheat because they simply want to re-live those moments of finding their prince, with someone new, someone they haven't lived life with, that they can still fantasize about.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> 8/19/2016 :


That August posting was a smart remark. It was in response to all the information some members post on what to use to catch a cheating spouse. I promise you that predators out there frequent these forums, and their goal is to keep up to date with what methods and tactics spouses are deploying to uncover infidelity. 



Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> I decided against it long ago.
> 
> Where women in these forums are more receptive to learn, men are not. Women would learn how to easier identify a guy who has targeted them when he is in their presence.
> 
> ...



You're a self confessed unregretful serial marital rapist, posting on a tread about recovering marriages after the trauma of infidelity on a sub-forum populated largely by betrayed spouses and you want to complain that your posts describing in detail how you tricked and manipulated 6 women into cheating on their husbands are truly helpful and an opportunity for all of us to take in your wisdom about blind trust? 

Dontcha think women, most particularly married woman, would be best off avoiding you completely.

If they need help identifying a guy that is targeting them, I can do that ~~ it's Apexmale {I hope you aren't private messaging with any of the women here ~ might be a good boundary for you to enforce yourself to protect your wife from your wayward proclivities}.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> You're a self confessed unregretful serial marital rapist, posting on a tread about recovering marriages after the trauma of infidelity on a sub-forum populated largely by betrayed spouses and you want to complain that your posts describing in detail how you tricked and manipulated 6 women into cheating on their husbands are truly helpful and an opportunity for all of us to take in your wisdom about blind trust?
> 
> Dontcha think women, most particularly married woman, would be best off avoiding you completely.
> 
> If they need help identifying a guy that is targeting them, I can do that ~~ it's Apexmale {I hope you aren't private messaging with any of the women here ~ might be a good boundary for you to enforce yourself to protect your wife from your wayward proclivities}.


Anger, anger, anger. 

Emotions cloud better judgement folks. Here is your prime example.

It appears I understand the women who have responded. That only happens by learning of women, from other women. You may be angry, but no one seems interested in understanding that. Angry men are just way to common anyways. Chill out. For your wife atleast, its close to bedtime.

Playing the OM was decades ago... what concerns me now is my current marriage. Sharing my past experiences will help some couples, not all. And all I need to know is what's working for the women I have.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Okay, maybe I misunderstood him. I thought he was trying to _promote_ emotional intimacy in marriage, through the development of trust, rather than trying to control a spouse.
> 
> Again, @Apexmale, could you address this?


Here is where we reignite the debate that boundaries=controlling.

They are only controlling to the spouse that does not want said boundaries. If both agree, is it controlling?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> Thanks for the help!
> 
> Here is a man who believes women do not share the free will that men do.
> 
> Women will do as they please with or without a man's permission. To think otherwise, is actually fantasy.


Nice try. 

Our boundaries are reciprocal. 

We value our relationship and family and mutually choose not to gamble with it. 

It's really not that intrusive to either of us.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> Nice try.
> 
> Our boundaries are reciprocal.
> 
> ...


These forums are full of infidelity where limits and boundaries where reciprocal.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Here is where we reignite the debate that boundaries=controlling.
> 
> They are only controlling to the spouse that does not want said boundaries. If both agree, is it controlling?


That is a good question, but best answered by the female audience.



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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> These forums are full of infidelity where limits and boundaries where reciprocal.


rubbish.

hardly anyone getting married these days knows anything about proper and healthy limits and boundaries in a marital relationship

Cheating takes a willing person and opportunity.

some struggle more than others with thought {and past behavior} habits/patterns that make them more susceptible or not to infidelity {and RT discussed some of these earlier}. Even professions like cops, doctors, lawyers, etc, have the varying risks. Actually, your posts about the 6 married women you manipulated into affairs is a perfect example of "willing, susceptible" persons { and the more naive and immune they think they are the easier it is for a cunning "other person" to sneak up on them like you did} ~~~ thus, if anything, your experiences should have taught you that in addition to working on making your marriage great, transparent and mutually satisfying, that, just in case, you should implement some reciprocal boundaries to wisely minimize the second part of the equation, "opportunity" just in case. I mean, are you really just OK with some guy like you making the moves on your wife with such nefarious intentions?

For example, why do I need more than 2 drinks of alcohol when my wife isn't with me? It wouldn't serve my marriage for me to put myself in the position of being drunk outside of her presence ever. It's an easy rule to live by and doesn't impede my life whatsoever. It's just wise. Why must one tempt fate time and again when you and your spouse can simply acknowledge that infidelity exists out there and that you both don't ever want it to happen to your marriage and come up with a plan together to minimize the odds. 


I mean, consider the married women you seduced. You didn't just run up to them and start kissing them. They'd have rejected you outright. Instead you groomed them for months or even years. You ingratiated yourself on them and worked diligently to sell them on the proposition that you had something different and better to offer that was worth throwing away their character and integrity for. Their husbands should have "seen you coming" and "cherished" their wives by putting their proverbial foot down on such inappropriate opposite sex friendships with a single man and their wives would have loved them MORE for demonstrating such love and care. 

When temptation comes knocking, four eyes on the lookout are better than two.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Apexmale said:


> That is a good question, but best answered by the female audience.


Why?

You have boundaries in your marriage as well, they are just far less restrictive. The very vows we take at the altar are in fact boundaries. 

I would assume that cheating would be a deal breaker? Physical abuse? Financial infidelity? Obviously I am stabbing in the dark he as I hardly know you.

The aforementioned are more extreme examples, but all marriages have boundaries. Even most open marriages have them.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Why?
> 
> You have boundaries in your marriage as well, they are just far less restrictive.
> 
> ...


Sure our marriage has limits and boundaries. Such things involve drugs, alcohol abuse, spousal abuse, etc.

What works for us, is that I don't apply the common limits and boundaries that are placed on women. And that, I learned from other women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> rubbish.
> 
> hardly anyone getting married these days knows anything about proper and healthy limits and boundaries in a marital relationship
> 
> ...


So true, and whatever is said, the women he groomed and seduced didn't have good boundaries or good moral values. Many women I know would never cheat, full stop. They would never even be in that position where a man could groom them because they would never be alone with him.

We have read a good book on boundaries which is called 'Hedges-loving your marriage enough to protect it' by Jerry B Jenkins.Full of commonsense and wise advise. Hopefully more will be aware of this and protect themselves from these predators and home wreckers who have no conscience or integrity.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Apexmale said:


> That is a good question, but best answered by the female audience.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk





farsidejunky said:


> Here is where we reignite the debate that boundaries=controlling.
> 
> They are only controlling to the spouse that does not want said boundaries. If both agree, is it controlling?


 @Apexmale, since you asked for a woman's input, no, it isn't controlling _if both partners want it_. Some women thrive on strict boundaries. Some women translate jealousy and possessiveness as affection and passion. Why else would 50 Shades of Gray be so popular? 

And Twilight, that other infamous romance novel targeted at young women. The most romantic scene from that one was where he snuck into her room to watch her sleep for eight hours without so much as moving. The whole book was about the hero bringing pain and suffering to anyone who so much as looked at the heroine with danger or lust in their eyes. Protectiveness, if the woman happens to be into the protector, is sexy.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

Quality said:


> rubbish.
> 
> hardly anyone getting married these days knows anything about proper and healthy limits and boundaries in a marital relationship
> 
> ...


Establishing safeguards... such as being limited to 2 drinks works because it wouldn't serve your marriage and it provides security?

I can have 8, and not cheat. I don't limit my drinks because I believe they don't serve my marriage, I dont drink 8 because I don't want to call a cab.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> @Apexmale, since you asked for a woman's input, no, it isn't controlling _if both partners want it_. Some women thrive on strict boundaries. Why else would 50 Shades of Gray be so popular?


And there you have it!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Apexmale said:


> Sure our marriage has limits and boundaries. Such things involve drugs, alcohol abuse, spousal abuse, etc.
> 
> What works for us, is that I don't apply the common limits and boundaries that are placed on women. And that, I learned from other women.


Okay, now we are getting somewhere.

What you are talking about seems pretty normal to me. 

I would further argue that it is not just males that try to impose reasonable boundaries on females.

When I was recruiting for the military, my wife wanted me to have zero one-on-one interaction with females. That was an impossibility not only due to females joining, but that I also had a female subordinate in the recruiting station.

That was restrictive.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I have my own boundaries that I keep regardless. My husband is a very easy going laid back Aussie who wouldn't think to force or even suggest boundaries for me, but because of the mess and mahem that affairs and lies and deception have caused in most of the marriages in my family, I am so aware of the need for wise sensible boundaries with the opposite sex. I wouldn't call them strict at all, just sensible. My marriage is well worth protecting. 

My husband has different boundaries, his are that he would never cheat or get into any sort of one on one relationship with a woman. So no texting, no secret or private communicating, all above board and open. No meeting together with another woman alone etc.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Here is where we reignite the debate that boundaries=controlling.
> 
> They are only controlling to the spouse that does not want said boundaries. If both agree, is it controlling?


If they spring from the hearts of both people, do not come from a place of fear, are freely agreed to (not coerced in any way), and the consequences are roughly equal for each one, then maybe not.

Idk, far. If it comes to having to make rules for each other, I think the marriage is on shaky ground. Much better to have a marriage based on mutual trust and natural compatibility.

I just cannot imagine telling Dug how he may or may not interact with other women. And he surely feels the same about me with other men. 

I cannot imagine his ever "making rules" about my interaction with men. Just sounds terribly strange and unhealthy. And I would feel stupid and immature and controlling to try to do that with him, either. Not our kind of relationship at all.

We like being with each other and want to be together. That is the heart of our relationship.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> When I was recruiting for the military, my wife wanted me to have zero one-on-one interaction with females. That was an impossibility not only due to females joining, but that I also had a female subordinate in the recruiting station.


Wow, she was very fearful. Why is that, far?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

A combination of her knowing my resume with females, insecurity, our relationship not being in a very good place, 80 - 100 hour work weeks for me, her placing effort into controlling me verses trying to improve our relationship, and me keeping her at arm's length due to my inability to deal with her lousy behavior in a mature manner.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> A combination of her knowing my resume with females, insecurity, our relationship not being in a very good place, 80 - 100 hour work weeks for me, her placing effort into controlling me verses trying to improve our relationship, and me keeping her at arm's length due to my inability to deal with her lousy behavior in a mature manner.


Is this still an issue?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You know, I did not have a perfect history when Dug and I met. But he has never expressed any concern about my faithfulness. There has been total trust from the beginning.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> So true, and whatever is said, the women he groomed and seduced didn't have good boundaries or good moral values. Many women I know would never cheat, full stop. They would never even be in that position where a man could groom them because they would never be alone with him.
> 
> We have read a good book on boundaries which is called 'Hedges-loving your marriage enough to protect it' by *Jerry B Jenkins*.Full of commonsense and wise advise. Hopefully more will be aware of this and protect themselves from these predators and home wreckers who have no conscience or integrity.


This is a total aside, but I had his son in class many years ago. Very nice young man.

Back to the subject of the thread . . .


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Is this still an issue?


No.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> No.


How did you resolve it?

Specifically, how did you earn her trust, considering your "resume"?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The last 3+ years of work on our relationship and some maturity.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> The last 3+ years of work on our relationship and some maturity.


Far, I get the sense you do not want to go into detail. And maybe this thread is not the place for it. But it would be interesting to hear how a person does earn trust after an extensive "resume."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Far, I get the sense you do not want to go into detail. And maybe this thread is not the place for it. But it would be interesting to hear how a person does earn trust after an extensive "resume."


The hard part of this is being a moderator, yet participating in what could be considered a TJ. 

RT, if this is detracting from your thread, please say so.

Other than that, no I am not trying to be sparse in details. You have more knowledge of my last three years than nearly everyone else on this site so it seemed like it would be information already covered. 

That sounded rude...I was trying not to bore you with what you already know if that makes sense.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> The hard part of this is being a moderator, yet participating in what could be considered a TJ.
> 
> RT, if this is detracting from your thread, please say so.
> 
> ...


I understand about the t/j. Maybe later I will ask you on your thread. 

I do think people can learn from your experience, whether they have followed your journey or not. And my memory is not always 100%.


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## Apexmale (Jul 31, 2015)

jld said:


> I understand about the t/j. Maybe later I will ask you on your thread.
> 
> I do think people can learn from your experience, whether they have followed your journey or not. And my memory is not always 100%.


People can always learn from journey's others have experienced. The issue, is their willingness to learn.

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html


Today's topic will discuss forgiveness and its relation to the topic of infidelity. This first post will incorporate some research, as I broach the subject and keep it easy to read. Subsequent posts will involve the integration of more research. This first post introduces research from the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy.

Note: I do not advocate for turn-the-cheek acts or mindsets of forgiveness.

U.) Forgiveness

If I am being harassed/challenged on TAM, then it is likely for my approach in regards to forgiveness. Clients, however, struggle to act in an outwardly forgiving manner when presented with relationship crimes. Like anything, I absolutely must determine what the body of evidence from research indicates and make that my establishment. Research is expensive to have access to, so please be cognizant of the time and money invested in an endeavor like this. 

Forgiveness is one of the toughest things for individuals to tackle and this is very well understood in the psychological community. Individuals tend to be averse to newness and things that challenge them. Forgiveness is met with a barrage of resistance from the conscious and subconscious mind, usually along the lines of justice. What I am going to do is introduce you to a more practical approach and understanding to forgiveness, so much so that you'd be foolish to not benefit from it. 

What the heck is it, then? (1)



> Conceptually distinct from excusing, condoning, or denying prior transgressions, forgiving is a transformative process in which healing from past injustices takes place


I have a unique background as it applies to forgiveness. I didn't originally come at it from a research standpoint, but rather as one who struggled with the transgressions of others. We can be the victims of countless actions everyday. In time, these transgressions add up and if we don't forgive, then we are left with the burden of all of all that emotional trauma. I can tell you what my struggle was before I became a great forgiver. My inner voice deemed the actions of others as "bad" or "unforgivable" and I allowed that to be the conclusion, either by willfully acting upon it or by not letting myself get over it. The idea was that if I held onto the pain, the other person would:

-understand what they did wrong
-feel bad for what they did
-try to make it up to me

The problem is that this doesn't always work so well and many times, it backfires. Either way, we are guaranteed to endure pain until the labeled criminal reaches the goal post we have set. There are also countless examples in which a transgressor is very happy to elicit pain and sadness within us. This extends us to the disparity between what I call the traditional form of forgiveness and the "true" or practical form. Forgiveness is actually an internal process of letting yourself off the hook, rather than the the traditional manner of pardoning the relationship criminal or leaving them in solitary confinement. Of course, both individuals tend to hold to the traditional belief, meaning that the transgressor often continues to feel great sorrow and guilt until the injured partner "forgives them (the transgressor).

When a spouse does something that hurts the other, there can be forgiveness, even if the other person does nothing to address what they've done (not optimal, however). How can this be? To explain, I must give an example that will shed some light on the true definition.

There was an 80-something year old woman in a restaurant bathroom. A 30-ish-year-old man snuck in there to rob her but also had other things on his mind. This woman fought for her life and successfully fended off her attacker until help arrived. She was hurt, but not severely. Her attacker was convicted of assault, a few other things, and hauled off to prison. Even though this woman had been hurt, she made the effort to forgive him, even going so far as sending him a letter with a bible as a present. This man was in prison before and after she forgave him. He still has to suffer for what he did to her. There is one difference than in typical situations, though. She did not allow her life to be destroyed by his attack. She fought tooth and nail to protect her life and she did the same to ensure that she was not perpetually traumatized by what transpired. If she denied herself forgiveness, then she would only deny herself a happy life.

In a relationship, individuals get so focused on wrong-doings, that they forget to focus on the present moment and do what is necessary to engender improvements in relational intimacy. Forgiveness doesn't remove any of the need for the relationship to address character flaws and past transgressions. If infidelity is the concern, then the injured partner still has just as much need to forgive. Forgiveness doesn't imply that reconciliation must take place! One can forgive but still objectively evaluate the present-moment relationship, deeming it to be unviable. The reconciliation process that I coach others with is one that is strictly based on what is proven to work. Forgiveness IS an intrinsic element.


If you recall from the introductory post, I introduced empathy as one of the key or core components to this process, being one of the five elements of Emotional Intelligence (E-IQ). Empathy is so tied to forgiveness and luckily this some research explains how and why. (1)


> In other words, empathizing with the offender and modifying previously held attributions about the offender make forgiving more likely. Working from these conceptualizations of forgiveness, many clinicians attempt to promote forgiving in couple therapy by appealing to conscious, reason-based processes so as to encourage a reappraisal of the transgression and empathy toward the offender in question.


The following may be subconscious, automatic thoughts that one has when approached with an unfaithful partner:

"But, they don't deserve forgiveness."
"But, what they did was wrong."
"They are just a bad person."
"My spouse cheated because he/she doesn't love me and wanted to destroy the marriage."

When we work with couples to address their problems, we do so in a manner that does so objectively. This, in part, challenges the negative ruminations from the injured partner and it also holds the unfaithful partner accountable to something that cannot be explained away. Objective reality is there, whether or not we agree with it. Understanding why the unfaithful spouse cheated doesn't endorse the actions or condone them and it sure doesn't keep that person in the path of further cheating. In reality, it just cuts through the fog of subjective attributions, which are usually along very emotional lines. This highlights the underlying character flaws that led the unfaithful partner to their actions. Of course, there is often remorse on the part of the injured partner for not having done something sooner.

Now that we have a better idea of a workable approach to forgiveness, the next post (or two) will address the benefits of it and exactly how forgiveness is employed in the reconciliation process.


1: Kimmes, J. G., & Durtschi, J. A. (2016). Forgiveness in Romantic Relationships: The Roles of Attachment, Empathy, and Attributions. Journal Of Marital And Family Therapy, doi:10.1111/jmft.12171


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Forgiveness is vital for our own well being even if the other person never says sorry and never accepts responsibility.
However forgiveness isn't the same as reconciliation. You can forgive while knowing that remaining together is the wrong thing for you or is impossible. 
I have forgiven people who were either dead or who never apologised. It helped me, but they weren't even aware I did it. 
My husband forgave his former wife for having an affair and divorcing him. She has never said sorry.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html


Today's post will address some critical components to the reaction to infidelity in relationships. It will mainly address how to address a disclosed affair, but, in doing so, will greatly touch upon forgiveness and G to N (see introduction).

F.)How to address a disclosed affair

What we need to first address is the reality of authority versus knowledge. To do this, one must have a reasonable understanding of how logical fallacies work. That explanation is beyond the scope of the UAP. What I will say is that it is critical for individuals to not be so married to "what they know", which implies a certain amount of bias and defense against new or conflicting information. This is an intrinsic element in therapeutic models, especially in couples therapy. We have to look to what the evidence suggests the approach should be, but be open to new developments. One reality that has to be considered is whether or not the relationship expert has taken this approach, and done so specifically towards infidelity. Because I am presenting widely recognized peer-reviewed research, one may evaluate which relationship specialist they will choose. Many counselors and therapists don't have the specific training in infidelity, instead only using the general approach they were taught (2). I blame the late arriving research, not the body of experts. Because we are interested in results, I do advise one to ensure they are receiving tools that are proven to work in the highly complex aftermath of an affair. A final caveat is that I employ a specific definition of forgiveness. The body of research presents different ones, but they are not really mutually exclusive. Some forms of forgiveness incorporate elements of reconciliation; others are much more strictly limited to being a personal element. I am going to espouse one that blends elements of Lusterman (1998) and Spring (1996), resulting in what I feel is the most practical. Lusterman (1998) defines forgiveness as



> clearing up any secrets, letting go of the resentment and anger for the victim, and letting go of any guilt for the offender.


While Spring (1996) describes it as a slow process that evolves. As one can tell, this form of forgiveness is an interpersonal experience. I also must mention that there is energy used to maintain a grudge or resentment, towards unfaithful partner. Forgiving frees this energy so that one can heal (5). It is NOT a blank check, condonation, turning the cheek or anything of the like. Forgiveness is a process that requires actions (behaviors), and thoughts (cognitions). One can't read a book on how to drive. Driving requires performance to master.

FAQ (before we explore the therapeutic process to heal an affair-stricken couple)

-An affair is unforgivable. Why should there be anything that relieves the unfaithful partner?
1. Forgiveness has primary benefits for the victim. (1)



> forgiveness is positively correlated with several aspects of marital relationships such as intimacy, Facilitating forgiveness [positive]affect, attributions and marital satisfaction.


2. If the relationship continuing is desired, then forgiveness is mandatory. (1)



> In cases of infidelity, relationship healing and reconciliation cannot occur without forgiveness.


-The victim needs to gather every available piece of evidence to find out exactly what happened, right?
1. Affairs are traumatic events. It is not recommended to barrage the suffering victim with details backed by "the evidence". This will be explained.
2. I still have never seen this recommended in any of the research on infidelity.

-The cheating partner deserves some minimum level of compassion, right?
1. Yes, as we will see.

-The cheating partner has to confront what they've done, right?
1. Yes, as we will see.

Ready?
(1)


> Pingleton (1989) states ‘‘forgiveness is necessitated whenever individuals experience a violation of their sense of fairness, justice, or innocence’’ (p. 30). Forgiveness, consequently, can be considered a central component of therapy.



1. Crisis Management/ Immediate Aftermath. (6&7, Based on Diblasio's Infidelity Intervention Model)

When the affair first comes to light, both individuals are often faced with severe negative consequences. Because of this, there must be a focus upon ensuring that further damage isn't done. Lives are literally on the line, so this is not something to treat without extreme precaution. The delivery of bad advice can easily result in heightened and prolonged suffering on the part of the victim. Doing what may feel right in the moment is often not the right course of action. Individuals that are suffering from depression and (possibly) PTSD do not have full access to their cognitive abilities. Again, we rely upon the body of research because the externalities have been taken into account.

The initial stage presents the victim with something that shatters their foundation. There is stability in knowing that the relationship will thrive or fail based on the participation of only the two primary partners. The introduction of third (predatory) individual presents dynamic elements. Because of this, the victimized partner is left with a vast list of questions that demand to be answered. We have to be cautions because of the aforementioned concerns and understanding.



> Yet an excessive preoccupation with the details of the affair may hinder the process of healing for the betrayed partner and the couple. In order to help clients move from obsessive fact-finding to more healing behaviour, therapists may need to monitor and limit such questioning. Certain facts about the affair should be shared. However, to save the betrayed partner from further pain this information should be limited to the identity of the extramarital partner, the duration of the affair and the frequency and location of meetings (Weeks and Treat, 2001).


2. Disclosure 1

This step involves the unfaithful partner setting the table with what actually happened and how things got so far. Without disclosure, there can be no reconciliation and usually little to no healing/forgiveness. The offender withholds information for many reasons and they are not always of purely evil intention. They can do so because of empathy, sympathy, fear of judgment, embarrassment, and even to manage the power balance in their favor. This step is an early one that can begin to set the foundation for the future marriage.

3. Q&A

The victim is going to have questions and many of them. One of the most critical things to get to the point of forgiveness is to have everything on the table. How can an individual really forgive if they don't know what they are forgiving? How can they forgive if they don't have a partner that is remorseful and willing to work on the relationship? Again, it is very hard, but made significantly easier by following the process and being open to being challenged (often repeatedly) by the victim. Sometimes the victim will be incredulous. Other times they will blame themselves.

4. Disclosure 2

Now the victim goes into full detail as to how they feel, but also as to how they felt. There will be emotional disclosure early on, but it will be compromised by the trauma felt. Now that emotions have settled down, the victim can properly explain their side of the equation. We really want to see the exchange of empathy and sympathy in these disclosure sessions. There will be some level of concealment early on after the disclosure of the affair, requiring it to be approached a bit later on.

5. Boundaries and Relapse Prevention

The entire idea to this approach is to apply the research in a practical manner. There is always resistance, but it is expected and for good reason. We address how the couple heals and puts their relationship back together in a fashion that prevents further failure to occur. Infidelity may be the specific goal at the onset of treatment, but it is unwise to assume that there were not underlying causes that cause other types of relational failure. Marriages and relationships, in general, are contractual. Many times individuals don't make it known what their expectations are, and do so to their detriment. While it is late, it is better so than never. Couples usually come to the joint conclusion that they both had some interpersonal failings. As such, this implies a need for hammering a lot of the basics of conflict management, sparking romance and co-maintenance. A relationship is a system that should have measured in place to self-correct. Many of these measures involve explicit and implicit boundaries. Some couples may be safe in having one of the partners being able to have interactions with individuals of the opposite sex. There is a lot of context here! In the majority of situations, one-on-one interactions with those of the opposite sex include more stringent limitations. One of the most important boundaries that every relationship should have is for the couple to not partner-bash to or in front of others. It is a huge violation to a relationship and it tends to invite the establishment of emotional/sexual connection to the individual listening to the complaints. Got a problem? Address it directly.

1: Mamalakis, Phillip M. (2001) Painting a Bigger Picture: Forgiveness Therapy with Pre-Marital Infidelity: A Case Study. Journal of Family Psychotherapy
2: Butler, M. H., Harper, J. M. and Seedall, R. B. (2009) Facilitated disclosure versus clinical accommodation of infidelity secrets: an early pivot point on couple therapy. Part 1: couple relationship ethics, pragmatics, and attachment. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 35: 125–143.
3: Lusterman, D. (1995). Treating marital infidelity. In R. H. Mikesell, D. Lusterman, & S. H. McDaniel (Eds.), Integrating Family Therapy: Handbook of Family Psychology and Systems 
4: Abrahms Spring, J. (1996). After the affair: Healing the pain and rebuilding trust when a partner has been unfaithful. New York: HarperCollins Publishers.
5: Simon, S. and Simon, S. (1990) Forgiveness: How to Make Peace with Your Past and Get on with Your Life. New York: Warner Books.
6: DiBlasio, F. A., & Proctor, J. H. (1993). Therapists and the clinical use of forgiveness.The American Journal of Family Therapy, 21, 175-184.
7: DiBlasio, F. A. (1997, October). Healing after infidelity through the therapeutic use of forgiveness. Workshop presentation at the Annual American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy Conference, Atlanta, GA


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Update:

The next post will address why individuals in committed relationships resort to cheating. The goal is to understand the reasons and circumstances that predict/correlate/cause the behavior. It shouldn't happen. It doesn't make "logical sense", yet it still happens. ETC 2/14 or 2/15.

Following the next post, we will address what the unfaithful partner should do in the attempt to reconcile. The previous post addressed how the expert guides a couple through it, but we have to understand it from both individuals' POV.

Many of the comments on this thread have helped to guide the explanations given. For that, thank you.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It all seems incredibly complicated and long winded for something that happens because of lack of sensible boundaries, along with low moral values and no integrity.

For me as with many, its a complete no no. There would be no going back for me from such a terribly betrayal. With no trust and the intimacy shattered, what is left? Nothing.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> It all seems incredibly complicated and long winded for something that happens because of lack of sensible boundaries, along with low moral values and no integrity.


It isn't just a lack of boundaries and a person with low moral values. We just cannot boil down someone into an adjective or two based upon a small amount of what they do. While you may not agree with the need for an explanation, I would hope that you agree that there is a lot we can learn from understanding "what the hell they were thinking". The literature suggests (as you will see) that individuals don't act in a binary fashion (yes/no) in regards to the affair. Few set out to cheat, meaning that people that have the best of intentions, in this very moment, are going to end up as relationship criminals, convicted of 1st-degree adultery. This also means that some husbands and wives think their relationship is affair-proof, when it is actually on the path of divorce or adultery. Because it is rarely binary, couples need to take ample PREcaution.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> It isn't just a lack of boundaries and a person with low moral values. We just cannot boil down someone into an adjective or two based upon a small amount of what they do. While you may not agree with the need for an explanation, I would hope that you agree that there is a lot we can learn from understanding "what the hell they were thinking". The literature suggests (as you will see) that individuals don't act in a binary fashion (yes/no) in regards to the affair. Few set out to cheat, meaning that people that have the best of intentions, in this very moment, are going to end up as relationship criminals, convicted of 1st-degree adultery. This also means that some husbands and wives think their relationship is affair-proof, when it is actually on the path of divorce or adultery. Because it is rarely binary, couples need to take ample PREcaution.


 That's why I believe in good sensible boundaries with the opposite sex. Prevention is wise. 

It is a lot about good moral values and integrity though. My husband and I were both married before for 23 and 25 years. Neither of us had brilliant marriages, his was quite unhappy, but he didnt and wouldnt cheat and nor would I. 
He had a lady give him a lot of attention in a job he had during his first marriage. He just treated her with politeness but was cool towards her and made it clear he wasn't interested.

I don't agree that few set out to cheat, I know many who were very open to the idea, and who carried on cheating for many months and sometimes many years. It wasn't a once off terrible mistake, but a cold calculating series of lies, deceptions, arranging to meet over and over again, deciding to cheat over and over again.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> That's why I believe in good sensible boundaries with the opposite sex. Prevention is wise.
> 
> It is a lot about good moral values and integrity though. My husband and I were both married before for 23 and 25 years. Neither of us had brilliant marriages, his was quite unhappy, but he didnt and wouldnt cheat and nor would I.
> He had a lady give him a lot of attention in a job he had during his first marriage. He just treated her with politeness but was cool towards her and made it clear he wasn't interested.
> ...


I am going to introduce the line of thinking that differentiates your experience with that of the unfaithful. You are going to realize that the problem 90% of the time is a *lack *of "calculation".


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I am going to introduce the line of thinking that differentiates your experience with that of the unfaithful. You are going to realize that the problem 90% of the time is a *lack *of "calculation".


We will have to agree to differ on much of what you think.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> We will have to agree to differ on much of what you think.


I am not introducing what I think. I am telling you what Psychologists that research infidelity have discovered.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I am not introducing what I think. I am telling you what Psychologists that research infidelity have discovered.


 Its not what I have seen in the countless affairs I know about.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Its not what I have seen in the countless affairs I know about.


Not to mention you can find research to support pretty much any old hare brained idea.


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## Fielding (Feb 14, 2017)

Personally, I do not commonly see a link between alleged imperfections in the marriage and in the betrayed spouse and the cheating. I do not take issue that many marriages and betrayed people are imperfect, although I do think we have to look at the allegations from the cheater with a very jaundiced eye ( they are, after all, extremely invested in justifying their cheating due to both the cognitive dissonance it causes them and also in impression management). Cheaters are, by definition, liars and have less integrity.
So, while I do think that it is , theoretically, possible that a normal, fairly honest person could, under the right type of duress/abuse. resort to cheating as an escape, I think it is very uncommon.
Just reading the posts here from the betrayed, I get the impression that most who post here are thoughtful, emotionally available and decent folks, not the monsters that many cheaters seem to paint their partners.
I cannot imagine we would place much credence in their allegations.
I did read that one study, somewhere ( and I do not know how the researchers went about this) found that in looking at the marriages where infidelity had occurred, the cheater had always been the one less invested in the marriage and more likely to have caused the majority of the pre-affair problem. This has always made sense to me and seemed consistent with my own experience knowing a fair number of cheaters. 
In getting to know these folks, I have observed that their lack of integrity is not confined to the fidelity realm and often extends into finances, contracts in general, and an overall willingness to abide by the rules of society and one's moral obligation toward others.
So, I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that I highly doubt that addressing the pre-affair marital issues is going to change the basic nature of a person so limited in problem solving ability, so lacking in integrity and empathy, and so lacking in basic communication skills, so as to allow for trust and a decent relationship. 
Once someone cheats on you ( and if you found out, odds are there are other instances that you will never find), I think the best way to avoid further pain is to leave.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I am going to introduce the line of thinking that differentiates your experience with that of the unfaithful. You are going to realize that the problem 90% of the time is a *lack *of "calculation".


Passive choices are still choices.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As I see it, committing adultery is one of the worst things you can do to someone. I honestly don't care what people say to try and justify their actions, or what lies they tell these people who do these studies, its a horrible, cruel, selfish and inhuman thing to do, that causes untold pain and suffering, and in some case even the suicides of those who discover these betrayals.
It also causes immense pain and suffering for the children in those marriages, which can badly effect them all their lives. 

To claim that everyone is capable of this is very wrong and VERY demeaning to those countless people who would never act that way, no matter what their marriages were like, because they are decent, responsible husbands/wives and parents who actually think of others before themselves. Who put their families first, who have self control and maturity. Who are not prepared to risk loosing their families or cause such pain for a sordid affair with yet another person who has no decency or integrity. 

Its claimed that 50% of married people will cheat at some point, and while that is tragic, its still leaves half of all married people who NEVER cheat. Who are faithful and decent moral people who keep the promises they made to their spouses.Who actually care about their children's happiness and security. That's billions of people.

My husbands ex made up awful things about him to try and justify her affair. She said he was abusive, he hasn't got an abusive bone in his body. She said he didn't meet her 'emotional needs' whatever they are. Things that I knew were crazy after only having known him for a couple of weeks, and 12 years later, my complete faith in him has been proved right. She lied and deceived many with her lies, even the counselors they saw for a time were taken in by her.

I have no compassion or sympathy for any cheater, I don't care what lame excuse they give. I have seen the devastation they have caused to those around me among family and friends, and they deserve nothing. If their spouse stays despite what they did, then they are very very fortunate, but they know full well they are risking their marriages and their children's well being every time they lie, deceive and arrange to met with their equally selfish lover. 

They make that decision to cheat, in many causes hundreds and hundreds of times.They don't even care about their own children it seems.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> To claim that everyone is capable of this is very wrong and VERY demeaning to those countless people who would never act that way, no matter what their marriages were like, because they are decent, responsible husbands/wives and parents who actually think of others before themselves. Who put their families first, who have self control and maturity. Who are not prepared to risk loosing their families or cause such pain for a sordid affair with yet another person who has no decency or integrity.


Technically you are mistaken, being human affords everyone the capability. That said absent having the intent, capability is a non issue.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I am not introducing what I think. I am telling you what Psychologists that research infidelity have discovered.


Ha, the amount of real knowledge about the dynamics of infidelity I've seen and read about psychologists having could fit in the palm of the average 3 year old's hand.

Saying that 10% of them even have a half-assed working knowledge of it would probably be a stretch. We've seen it around here for years.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Diana,

M2 has an overlapping - but not identical - view of this. 

I gave M2 a scenario. Couple gets married - sex is good. They have 3 kids which was the 'plan'. Now this is a median income family - so money is tight. 

At this point, one of them - and in today's world it could easily be the man - but either way - one of them does what they intended all along. They stop having sex, which they never liked but accepted as a necessary evil up to this point. They won't discuss it and won't go to counseling. 

The other spouse goes to see a lawyer. Does the math and determines that divorce is gonna be a financial train wreck for them and the kids. 

So that's the scenario. And - I get that isn't the 'norm', that said it isn't as rare as people like to claim. So - given that scenario - is it 'wrong' for the refused spouse to cheat? 

Remember - I directed this question at M2 - whose general view of infidelity is - quite frankly homicidal. And she said: You intentionally jam someone up like that, can't be surprised when they find a way to get their needs met. 

I just nodded. 

And before anyone jumps to any general conclusions about my - frame of reference.....

In 2010 M2 had a medical condition which worsened during 2011. So we haven't had regular sex - since end of 2011. Hasn't caused any tension at all - much less opened the door to any thoughts or talk of 'outsourcing'. The standard set of vows while short, includes 'sickness' for good reason. 

Thing is - if you have someone jammed up financially - and demonstrate a pattern of indifference to their core needs, that's a breach of the first vow (and its first for a reason), you can't be all that surprised when the karmic hammer swings back round, walks you in the head pretty good. 




Diana7 said:


> As I see it, committing adultery is one of the worst things you can do to someone. I honestly don't care what people say to try and justify their actions, or what lies they tell these people who do these studies, its a horrible, cruel, selfish and inhuman thing to do, that causes untold pain and suffering, and in some case even the suicides of those who discover these betrayals.
> It also causes immense pain and suffering for the children in those marriages, which can badly effect them all their lives.
> 
> To claim that everyone is capable of this is very wrong and VERY demeaning to those countless people who would never act that way, no matter what their marriages were like, because they are decent, responsible husbands/wives and parents who actually think of others before themselves. Who put their families first, who have self control and maturity. Who are not prepared to risk loosing their families or cause such pain for a sordid affair with yet another person who has no decency or integrity.
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Personal said:


> Technically you are mistaken, being human affords everyone the capability. That said absent having the intent, capability is a non issue.


I am not capable of flying even if I did have the intent.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Diana,
> 
> M2 has an overlapping - but not identical - view of this.
> 
> ...


The spouse who refuses sex is being cruel, but commiting adultery isnt the answer, ever. I am not going to cheat even if my husband could never have sex with me again. 
I have been though a divorce, and I was very hard up financially, its is possible and better than committing adultery which will always have terrible consequences.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I am not capable of flying even if I did have the intent.


If you are talking about being a bird I concur you do not have the capability.

Being human, sometimes being in the proximity of others, breathing and having sexual organs etc, affords you the capability to cheat. Having no interest, desire and choosing not to cheat is a measure of your intent rather than your capability.

People who have intent yet don't have the capability to achieve their intent, will endeavour to gain the capability to fulfill their intent.

People who have the capability yet don't have the intent to undertake something, will not apply their capability to achieve that end.

In my experience, the determination of capability and intent is essential to threat assessment.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

3putt said:


> Ha, the amount of real knowledge about the dynamics of infidelity I've seen and read about psychologists having could fit in the palm of the average 3 year old's hand.
> 
> Saying that 10% of them even have a half-assed working knowledge of it would probably be a stretch. We've seen it around here for years.


How is that discrediting what I have said?

How is that discrediting the Psychologists that DO have in-depth knowledge about infidelity? I am presenting what your "10%" have discovered in research.

I have made the positive statement that infidelity research and specific treatment models are not where they need to be. Unfortunately there isn't the same demand as there is for to finding a cure Erectile Dysfunction.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Passive choices are still choices.


Another straw man argument.. Consciousness can be represented on a continuum, which has opposing extremes. You need to address the context of what I am saying. The claim was (and is prevalent on this forum) that infidels set out to cheat and are conscious of what they are doing. It is not that simple and we know it by understanding the human mind and by directly studying infidelity in relationships. It does an incredible disservice to those that suffer from infidelity to not attempt to be very cognizant of the factors that are at play. Infidels are guilty of the behavior that they exhibit. They are NOT guilty of behavior that we impose on them because of our disdain for what they have done. Stupidity, lack of employing Emotional Intelligence, etc., are going to be dominant elements for when it isn't "calculated". You can't treat an illness with a cure when they are misdiagnosed. Each case of infidelity is different, making it silly to boil it down to generalities.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If infidels (LOL nice term) don't know the end result of crossing boundaries, it's because they are lying to themselves or willfully ignoring it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

This BS reminds me of the drunk defense. "But I didn't know what I was doing because I was drunk" is SO much crap, and so is that cheaters don't know what they're doing. If they actually cared about their spouse, or stopped for one second to THINK, they'd know exactly. I'm also not a fan of the mental illness defense. If you have a mental illness that makes you do stuff, you're still guilty of DOING it. Maybe you shouldn't be in jail, maybe you should be in a hospital, but you still need to be locked up. Trusting that a mentally unstable murderer will take his meds for the rest of his life is like giving a toddler a loaded gun. But I digress.

Cheaters may not be CONSCIOUS of what they're doing, but they STILL DO IT. Just because they fail to think it through doesn't give them a pass. I can't run a red light and kill someone's kid because I was daydreaming. This free pass bu11sh1t is just that - bu11sh1t.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Another straw man argument...


LOL. Nope.



Relationship Teacher said:


> Consciousness can be represented on a continuum, which has opposing extremes. You need to address the context of what I am saying.


Blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Blah.



Relationship Teacher said:


> The claim was (and is prevalent on this forum) that infidels set out to cheat...


In some (maybe even _many_) cases, yes.



Relationship Teacher said:


> ...and are conscious of what they are doing.


In all cases, yes.



Relationship Teacher said:


> It is not that simple...


It really is.



Relationship Teacher said:


> ...and we know it by understanding the human mind and by directly studying infidelity in relationships. It does an incredible disservice to those that suffer from infidelity to not attempt to be very cognizant of the factors that are at play.


Eh... I can agree w/ that.



Relationship Teacher said:


> Infidels are guilty of the behavior that they exhibit. They are NOT guilty of behavior that we impose on them because of our disdain for what they have done. Stupidity, lack of employing Emotional Intelligence, etc., are going to be dominant elements for when it isn't "calculated". You can't treat an illness with a cure when they are misdiagnosed.


So let's say that my wife cheats.

Scratch that -- let's say that _I_ cheat.

After the fact, I hit her w/ all of this bullsh*t about falling into it and I didn't mean it and blah blah blah blah blah.

If I'm so unable to control myself -- so unable to employ some magically unattainable combination of common sense, integrity, or whatever -- that I can't be trusted to _not_ put our marriage at risk by engaging in behavior _that *puts* it at risk_, then what's the upside in doing anything other than divorcing me?



Relationship Teacher said:


> Each case of infidelity is different...


I'll agree w/ that. Hell, I've ever said it a time or two.



Relationship Teacher said:


> ...making it silly to boil it down to generalities.


And yet certain generalities will always be present.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Cheaters may not be CONSCIOUS of what they're doing...


They are.

Every single one of them, ever.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> So let's say that my wife cheats.
> 
> Scratch that -- let's say that _I_ cheat.
> 
> ...


It isn't magically unattainable.

Reconciliation tends to occur in situations where the betrayed partner didn't contribute fully to the relationship. If you concluded that you are going to go cheat, then it is a very calculated decision, implying more fundamental problems with you. Fundamental characteristics imply the need for the person to change many core elements, something that is difficult and often fails. There are, however, many cases that involve situational/temporary weakness.

*Reconciliation is not a given.*


Lack of remorse implies lower chances of reconciliation.
Continuing to lie implies the same.
Not accepting responsibility implies the same.
Someone that willfully chooses to traumatize their partner...........implies the same.

Reconciliation is a brutal process of data-gathering, analysis, training and treatment.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Reconciliation tends to occur in situations where the betrayed partner didn't contribute fully to the relationship.


Makes a lot of sense, RT. 

Do you have a citation for this, btw?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> Makes a lot of sense, RT.
> 
> Do you have a citation for this, btw?


Part of this is derived from anecdotal evidence, based on personal experience and clinical reports.

Something more directly based on research (outside of phenomenological surveys) would be how the process of reconciliation is facilitated through forgiveness. 



Fife said:


> .Most cases of infidelity occur in a relational context in which the primary relationship is suffering and
> the affair may be a symptom of the relationship problems. However, although partners may be unhappy in the primary relationship, therapists must be clear with clients that this does not justify infidelity (Gordon et al., 2004). The exploration of the context of the affair can provide couples with an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of each other’s behaviour, thoughts and feelings, thereby facilitating empathy between them (Gordon et al., 2004). It also opens the door
> for both partners to seek forgiveness, as each may have contributed in some way to the suffering relationship. Both partners must be willing to accept responsibility for the harm they may have done to the relationship (Spring, 2004).


If one accepts that they have contributed to the "relationship problems", then the behavior of the unfaithful partner is more "understandable". "Understanding" greatly facilitates forgiveness.

Reference:
Fife, S., Weeks, G. & Filbert, J. 2013): Facilitating forgiveness in the treatment of infidelity: an interpersonal model. Journal of Family Therapy


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Those who cheat know exactly what they are doing, they make a conscious decision to do it, often dozens or even hundreds of times, and when questioned will nearly always blame their partner or the marriage or whatever rather than take responsibility.
I know more than one person who cheated who has actually said, 'it wasn't because of anything wrong in the marriage or with my spouse'. One said, 'the opportunity came up and I took it'. 
We should all have some self discipline and some self control, its a question of whether we chose to use those things or not. It depends on whether we put our spouses and children first before a selfish fling with an equally selfish person. Also whether we are responsible mature people or not, whether we choose to keep the promises we made or not.
To excuse behaviour because someone was apparently 'mentally ill' doesn't wash. Many who have mental illnesses dont cheat. Many in unhappy marriages never cheat.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Part of this is derived from anecdotal evidence, based on personal experience and clinical reports.
> 
> Something more directly based on research (outside of phenomenological surveys) would be how the process of reconciliation is facilitated through forgiveness.
> 
> ...


Forgiveness is possible without understanding why they cheated, but forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same and don't have to be the same. 
We can forgive while still knowing that the marriage covenant has been shattered and the trust gone. While sadly ending that marriage.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Forgiveness is possible without understanding why they cheated, but forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same and don't have to be the same.
> We can forgive while still knowing that the marriage covenant has been shattered and the trust gone. While sadly ending that marriage.


see: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/365265-rts-ultimate-affair-plan-15.html#post17329386


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> see: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/365265-rts-ultimate-affair-plan-15.html#post17329386


I have forgiven terrible things, as have people I know, yes I know what forgiveness is and the benefits of doing it. We don't need to understand why someone did something to forgive, we never will understand in some cases. 

However reconciliation is another issue altogether and one doesn't equate with the other.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I have forgiven terrible things, as have people I know, yes I know what forgiveness is and the benefits of doing it. We don't need to understand why someone did something to forgive, we never will understand in some cases.
> 
> However reconciliation is another issue altogether and one doesn't equate with the other.


That is about what I said in the linked post.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Those who cheat know exactly what they are doing, they make a conscious decision to do it, often dozens or even hundreds of times, and when questioned will nearly always blame their partner or the marriage or whatever rather than take responsibility.
> I know more than one person who cheated who has actually said, '*it wasn't because of anything wrong in the marriage or with my spouse*'. One said, 'the opportunity came up and I took it'.
> We should all have some self discipline and some self control, its a question of whether we chose to use those things or not. It depends on whether we put our spouses and children first before a selfish fling with an equally selfish person. Also whether we are responsible mature people or not, whether we choose to keep the promises we made or not.
> To excuse behaviour because someone was apparently 'mentally ill' doesn't wash. Many who have mental illnesses dont cheat. Many in unhappy marriages never cheat.


Ultimately this is true. Bad marriages don't produce affairs and good marriages are not affair proof. Really the marrriage may or not be a contributing factor at all. What is a factor is the character of the people involved, the choices they are presented with, and more so the choices they actually make that determine affairs or not.

This is really why affair prevention plans seem extremely silly to me. You can do all the right things and still be betrayed and divorced, I know first hand and I'm not the only one. If you want any kind of affair proof chose your partners well based on their character.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Ultimately this is true. Bad marriages don't produce affairs and good marriages are not affair proof. Really the marrriage may or not be a contributing factor at all. What is a factor is the character of the people involved, the choices they are presented with, and more so the choices they actually make that determine affairs or not.
> 
> This is really why affair prevention plans seem extremely silly to me. You can do all the right things and still be betrayed and divorced, I know first hand and I'm not the only one. If you want any kind of affair proof chose your partners well based on their character.


I agree, but I am very pro sensible wise boundaries. After all the marriages destroyed in my family by affairs, I am pretty strict with myself and what I will and wont do when it comes to other men. I am not going to let any temptation get in, even if I am very sure I wouldn't cheat. No point in walking on thin ice when you can go round it. Many may think I am being too careful, but my marriage is worth it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't think there is any such thing as an affair-proof marriage. And people are deluding themselves if they think that THEIR actions are going to prevent their partner from cheating OR push them towards it. If I am the hugest b!tch on the planet and my husband cheats on me rather than divorcing me, that's still on him, NOT me. Maybe I deserve to be cheated on, but that is also beside the point. HE cheated. NOT me. HIM. And if he actually wants to R with me, even though I am the biggest b!tch on the planet, well then he's just an idiot.

People think this way in all aspects of their lives, though. The idiotic lawsuits we see sometimes are proof of that. No one wants to, or thinks they have to, take responsibility for themselves.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I don't think there is any such thing as an affair-proof marriage. And people are deluding themselves if they think that THEIR actions are going to prevent their partner from cheating OR push them towards it. If I am the hugest b!tch on the planet and my husband cheats on me rather than divorcing me, that's still on him, NOT me. Maybe I deserve to be cheated on, but that is also beside the point. HE cheated. NOT me. HIM. And if he actually wants to R with me, even though I am the biggest b!tch on the planet, well then he's just an idiot.
> 
> People think this way in all aspects of their lives, though. The idiotic lawsuits we see sometimes are proof of that. No one wants to, or thinks they have to, take responsibility for themselves.


Well apparently 50% of married people never cheat. 

I think you can agree sensible boundaries together as a married couple, as to how you act with the opposite sex. This may help prevent some situations from happening, but of course both have to want to do this and be committed to being faithful.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Well apparently 50% of married people never cheat.
> 
> I think you can agree sensible boundaries together as a married couple, as to how you act with the opposite sex. This may help prevent some situations from happening, but of course both have to want to do this and be committed to being faithful.


Sensible boundaries - definitely. The thing is, there's a difference between having them because you need them, or having them because you both want your marriage to look that way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Sensible boundaries - definitely. The thing is, there's a difference between having them because you need them, or having them because you both want your marriage to look that way.


Its a preventive thing as far as I am concerned. Sort of like eating healthily and not smoking will help prevent illness.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Its a preventive thing as far as I am concerned. Sort of like eating healthily and not smoking will help prevent illness.


I know, but it's one thing to bring up the conversation and to both agree that it's sensible, and to both truly want it to be that way because that's what you would have done anyway. It's quite another to find out your wife likes to kiss guys on GNO and you have to impose a ban on it because you don't trust her, and she grudgingly agrees, meanwhile she's biding her time till you relax and she can start up again.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post221.html

Another post will follow this one to address causation, blame, and responsibility. It is written and in review.



This particular inquiry was prompted by a poster in this thread who just wanted to know why cheaters participate in unfaithful behavior. What the heck were they thinking!? An additional question might be whether they were actually "thinking". Either way, I will present information that exposes what the heck they were thinking, before, during and after the affair. The limitation to the published literature is obvious: we are looking at what individuals self-report. Researchers do their absolute best to not introduce any noise into the data stream, but there can still be some noise introduced by the unfaithful individual. Being objective, I must always question if the infidel has done post-hoc analysis, attributing their affair to xyz after the fact. Even if this is present, we still gain vast insight into the mind of the infidel, specifically in how they rationalize their behavior (again, post-hoc). The purpose of the paper was to objectively understand subjective experiences in how an affair began.



Zapien said:


> Often both parties would be equally confused as to how one could promise fidelity and then betray that promise without, what was perceived to be, ample consideration of the spouse and sufficient restraint.


Is this not a prevalent notion on this very forum?

It is commonly stated that the relationship is in some type of trouble when the affair begins (1). This is a general statement and is contested by some published research (2). I am in a medium-term process of weeding through the many studies to provide a thorough understanding of the statistical "causes" or justifications. There are issues of dueling contexts, so until I provide a unifying narrative, I will present the former (1, now) and latter studies (2, later). The exact type of marital dissatisfaction varies in type and severity. "Marital Distress" describes a certain level of relational strife. The absence of said term does not imply that the primary relationship has no "trouble". The focus of the trouble is upon lacking areas, such as intimacy, novelty, passion and sexual satisfaction (1). Now, this is where we get into couples dynamics and communication. Every couple has some amount of dissatisfaction and differing needs. 

One partner might have a normal sex drive and the other might have a very high drive, but it is the ability of the two to work as a team to resolve the disparity. I often use Ohm's law to teach concepts like this to individuals. In this, the wife's sexual drive (voltage) might be 1 volt, while the husband's might be 2 volts. Given a fixed amount of resistance, say 1 ohm, we can discern that we have 1 Amp of current flow, due to the difference in voltage divided by the resistance (I=V/R). This difference in sexual drive could be perceived as a lack of sex on the part of the male partner, being a cause of much strife. To ensure that both partners remain happy in a relationship that has differing needs, each partner must contribute something. It could be as simple as having a discussion that engenders understanding and coping from the male partner. In the case of a (partially) dysfunctional relationship, we see the absence of this perpetual problem being resolved. What most couples have a problem with are the after-effects of the initial attempts to resolve this issue. Often, as you will see, the complaining partner will give up the attempt to resolve the issue, but they will still have the complaint, possibly resenting the other partner. The other partner just might be cognizant enough of the full implications to having their romantic partner left with perpetual complaints. This might be the wife's complaint of not getting enough "ear time" of her husband, while a husband's complaint might be an insufficient amount (or variety/novelty) of sex. The full gravity of these unresolved complaints is often not obvious until hindsight sheds new light. This implies a lot for the betrayed spouse and the unfaithful spouse, especially in terms of personal responsibility.

To some, there is no excusing away infidelity (regarding severity and forgiveable/unforgiveable). To the betrayed, they may accept some blame for their contribution to the lacking marriage. They may also assume little to none. The situations that exhibit ardent stances are less able to reconcile. If reconciliation happens, it is less complete.




> The view of the one who begins the affair is that he or she has an appetite that is inherently greater than that of the spouse for novelty, passion, and sexual contact in sexual and romantic relationships. The one who begins the affair views the self as a good spouse (e.g. having tried to improve the situation, having an inherent sexual vitality, and remaining married despite the challenges of having greater sexual desires that remain unmet) and the spouse is viewed as bad (e.g. withholding, willful, boring and deficient, lacking sexual vitality) and these are understood as fixed and inherent characteristics.


This is textbook victimhood. I am outspoken on this topic because of its implications for relational connection, but also for self-happiness. There are dynamics of victimhood that I have rarely seen considered. My enlightenment on this topic only came after traumatic life events, necessitating deep introspection and self-improvement. The gist of it is that if I am the victim of everyone else's actions, and I can do little to nothing about them, then my emotional state is out of my control. In this example of infidelity, we are looking at one partner (betrayed) that doesn't listen well or doesn't engage in sex "enough". This person may be very argumentative on these subjects, becoming annoyed and dismissive.

"I am busy and providing for this family. I don't have time to listen to you all day."
or
"All you want is sex."

These are maladaptive responses to the perpetual distress that ensure nothing will be resolved. The greatest worry is when the complaining spouse stops complaining, but still secretly holds a grudge. The (to be betrayed) spouse may even change their ways and be very compassionately proactive in trying to look after their partner, but the damage is already done. Further attempts to resolve the issues might be met with distrust and a willingness to avoid the potential for an argument. 

The previous quote was a bombshell and will surely be met with a lot of surprise or indignance. As you see, I am not here to excuse behavior, only to describe it. If we understand it, then we can act proactively to mitigate the problems before they are terminal. My overarching point is for both partners to rethink their form of victimhood. When I studied bullying, it was very obvious that bullies feel that they are the primary victim. In studies, participants tended to side with the one externalizing negativity (the bully), assuming they were the victim. This means that the one complaining focuses on how they were wronged and society often agrees.

As I explained, the (to be) infidel concludes that the situation is perpetual and without resolution. They might look for what they see as lacking or they might "fall upon" it. A lot don't like this attribution, but it is common for the infidel to cheat, not having intended to. It usually starts as a friendship with one outside of the relationship (predatory male/female) and progresses (seemingly) without harm. It then becomes rewarding with hormones encouraging the exploration of this new relationship. Think about it, did much make sense when you were falling for your (now) spouse? It progresses like this and the affair is not obvious until it is too late. The person will often employ excusing behavior so as not to be in the light of their own subjective value judgments, similar to how one behaves when pulled over for speeding.



> At the same time there is largely a lack of curiosity about the spouse in this particular experience—what he or she may deserve, want, feel or be experiencing or what the consequences may be for the spouse of these constituents.


This really underpins my urgent call for there to consistently be empathy employed in romantic (interpersonal) relationships. These lacking or distressed relationships imply some amount of a failure to address each spouse’s concerns, desires and needs. The unfaithful will act on that in a way that is hypocritical: acting in a manner that fails to consider the impact of their actions. The lack of empathy, evident in a lack of intimacy, will be a great indicator for couples that have yet to experience an affair. Absent of proactively managing and protecting the relationship, we are left with personal weakness that can result in harmful behavior.



> The beginning of an affair then occurs as the one who begins an affair meets someone outside the marriage and experiences the self, compelled by curiosity and interest toward another who is also curious and interested about the one who begins an affair. This mutual interest is not necessarily understood as erotic or sexual at this particular moment in time, nor is there a sense of this becoming a potential affair. Instead there is a reciprocal reinforcing sense of curiosity and interest for the other and the other for the self that deepens and develops the connection fueling each other into further escalating interest, until a point when eroticism or passion is experienced in an act that has sexual significance. This is not experienced as a choice or a decision. It is experienced as passion overriding judgment.


This is the part that has been recently challenged on this very thread. How is it possible for this unfaithful person to commit this behavior? “They are entirely of conscious volition”, one proclaims. (I’ll present a reasonable explanation for this in a week or two as one of the sources I will include happens to explain it as well as the principal topic.) Again, we can put this (conscious volition) on a continuum, which has opposing extremes. There are countless things that take us out of being able to think rationally, in fact, most of our behavior is emotionally driven. Most of our behavior is (part or whole) constituted of subconscious factors. A lot goes into being able to do something as an arithmetic equation. As I stated early on, we CAN fault the person’s emotional intelligence, as individuals with higher E-IQ are more proactive and more able to shrug off temporary urges. This, too, would be evident before an affair occurred. 

As will be stated in a following post, explaining/describing behavior or understanding elements that weaken our ability to use critical thinking does not write off our culpability. Cheating isn’t any less of a crime, regardless of the elements at play. A person that ends the life of their attacker does have mitigating circumstances that excuse the behavior (situationally dependent).



> This occurs the moment that a clear and undeniable physical/active line is crossed for the one who begins the affair. In retrospect, however, there is a reflection and recognition that there were many small actions in which the one who begins the affair actively willfully participates that occurred prior to the moment of recognition of the affair, to facilitate the development of the affair, that can be categorized as erotic.


This really gets to the heart of my view on intentions and commitment. In the “affair website” blow-up/hacking, many individuals were exposed as “attempting” to have an affair, but didn’t for various reasons. These individuals have just as much need to get help as those who go through the act. There isn’t a clear line that signifies when an affair has occurred. This may be seen as a challenge, but my view simplifies it and dramatically helps individuals guard themselves from behavior that may precipitate affair behavior. It is safer to say that cheating occurs any time that a partner violates marital boundaries. This includes confiding in a person of the opposite sex (heterosexual) or even doing the same for another married person. I would NOT call these “small actions” as does the author I am quoting, but we have to understand the contextual differences.

It may be lack of critical thinking that allows a dangerous friendship to be established, later on resulting in an affair. It also may be a lack of critical thinking for the man that can’t say no to the offer of sex from a predatory female. In the latter case, many men have not done the prep-work necessary to guard against potential threats, like these. Assuming that values and morals are the criteria obfuscates the statistical reality of infidelity. We are emotional creatures, meaning that no person should assume they are affair-proof. Thought experiments are helpful.

I won’t elaborate too far on the individual statements from the participants of the research. Much of what is needed to be understood can come from the first disclosure.



> participant #1 describes, I’d already been really unhappy. . . . like our sex life was nonexistent. . . . I was sick of waiting around for this to happen. . . . I realized how much I missed sex and how much I missed intimacy and physical connection. . . . we went for counseling for awhile . . . and there was no chance for us.
> 
> Similarly, participant #2 notes, My relationship with my wife was damaged. We had certainly reached an impasse. I love passion and I love beauty and I love intimacy. I’m a person who is pretty easily bored by people. There is a monotony to a relationship with anybody.
> 
> Participant #3 mentions: I was totally miserable. There was no fulfilling sex whatsoever, not to mention the emotion on every level. . . . I would consider myself pretty battered.


Participant 1 was a woman in a boring marriage, underscored by a husband that had too little time for her, due to “his” hobbies and work. P2 doesn’t seem as if he was prepared to fulfill his promise to fidelity, are we in agreement? P3 was similar to #1, but was abused. Regardless of the situation, each infidel was “stuck” in the relationship. The opportunity cost to divorce was seen as higher than doing nothing or cheating. It is not so simple to assume that all unhappy (to be unfaithful) individuals could take the route of divorce, especially as they fear negative emotional reactions from their spouse, friends, family and church. Again, individuals fall upon what is in the immediate future and postpone long-term critical thinking and planning. P2 might be an ESTJ, which their boredom is a shining characteristic. They are known to “need” to be reminded of why they are in the committed relationship on a day-to-day basis. Personality factors are a bit more fixed, implying questions about mate selection for P2 and his spouse.

A factor we already noted was the desire for novelty, or newness. This tends to translate to the person feeling the need for the hormones present in young/new relationships. Men (usually) often fantasize about the sexual experiences that they witness in video pornography, meaning that they think porn acts are normative, and not the carefully scripted acts that they are (for the male audience). Again, we can look at this to identify potential failings in our relationships. Do we conclude that only new relationships can be romantic and characteristic of certain infatuation elements? Perhaps we can include these elements perpetually, although the effortlessness is not going to be there.



> This is attributed to the perception of inherently fixed capacities in the self and other related to: sexuality, eroticism, passion, romance and novelty. These capacities are considered in tact in the self but insufficiently developed in the spouse. This view is particularly important because it does not allow for an alternative understanding of the experience as being a relational phenomenon, or related to contextual factors, or changeable aspects of the self or other. Choice is not a prominent consideration with respect to developing these capacities. Further, the participant holds another set of fixed views of the self and other that includes a moral judgment. The self is viewed as a good person and the spouse is viewed as bad as the assumption is that he or she does not have these desires or does not act on them within the sanctioned structure of marriage where these should be, and therefore is perceived as having deliberately and punitively withheld love or affection or/and as being sexually or erotically deficient.


Certainly, we can blame the betrayed spouse (sometimes) for not contributing fully to their marriage (not as a direct cause of affair). You can see, though, that the more the lack of xyz is, the more subjectively deserving they are to find it elsewhere. This may not be directly caused by the “fixed” views, but we have to understand the interplay between them. This is no minor point. If one holds fixed views, then they are doing the same as individuals that fail to perform critical thinking. One of the hallmarks of science is questioning the individual’s conclusions and evaluating claims that counter them. The same actions are needed in romantic relationships that are needed in scientific research, albeit of a different flavor.

“Hrmm, maybe I am wrong.”
“What if my husband has unmet needs that I am responsible for?”
“Am I giving my wife enough emotional attention and romance?”

If one (like the participants), instead, conclude that they are the victim and their spouse is fixed, then there is no possible change of the circumstance. This runs counter to the critical thinking element of pondering causal factors from this spouse, but also to question each side of the equation in an objective fashion. Likewise, the (to be unfaithful) individual may assume that the infatuation experiences are permanently gone, meaning no romance, low sexual intimacy and a permanent roommate-ship. Remember, it is all subjective. Like the spouse that “only” sees when the chore is not done (when it is actually a 70% success rate), the spouse that assumes that their partner “never” does this or that is equally flawed. A lack of sex may only be a lack from the standpoint of a man with a high sex drive, when, in fact, their spouse may have a perfectly normal (non-dysfunctional) sex drive.

There is one last point I intend to make and elaborate on; it relates to the mindlessness or lack of critical thinking employed by infidels. The research goes on further, but the phenomenological psychology is too academic for the purpose of this thread.



> There is a transcendent quality of the self, a giving over to a larger force outside of the self and other.


In this, the affair participants principally describe themselves only as “we” or “us”, including the affair partner. They often fail to mention themselves, entirely. This can be seen as a way that they direct away the spotlight off of their actions. Think about it in the way that a narrator tells a story, doing so in a third-person fashion. The researcher notes that they describe themselves as subjects in the experience, seemingly orchestrated by some outside force (1). The experience happened to them, rather than it being the direct assumption of responsibility that we often desire to witness. But, really, we are not seeing much difference in the way that individuals first fall in love with that of how they may go on to cheat.

This post was more garnered towards explaining the mindset of the married individual and their subjective experience in the affair. What the heck were they thinking? Well, now you have a better idea. One participant (#2) is probably one of the more feared scenarios, as he didn’t note much of a problem with the relationship (objectively), but was living more in an egoic fashion. While the dynamic nature of his experience could seem to be hard to detect, I would predict that his behavior/personality would be evident in other ways. The other two were pretty common examples of a spouse that desired/needed more and eventually set out to be satisfied.

Reference:

1: Zapien, N. (2016): The Beginning of an Extra-Marital Affair: A Descriptive Phenomenological Psychological Study and Clinical Implications. Journal of Phenomenological Psychology
2: Pittman, I. S., & Wagers, T. P. (2005). Teaching fidelity. Journal Of Clinical Psychology, 61(11), 1407-1419.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I agree, but I am very pro sensible wise boundaries. After all the marriages destroyed in my family by affairs, I am pretty strict with myself and what I will and wont do when it comes to other men. I am not going to let any temptation get in, even if I am very sure I wouldn't cheat. No point in walking on thin ice when you can go round it. Many may think I am being too careful, but my marriage is worth it.


I think it's commendable that you recognize the need for boundrys. Some people do need that to stay on the path. Not just with cheating but with all aspects of life.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> I know, but it's one thing to bring up the conversation and to both agree that it's sensible, and to both truly want it to be that way because that's what you would have done anyway. It's quite another to find out your wife likes to kiss guys on GNO and you have to impose a ban on it because you don't trust her, and she grudgingly agrees, meanwhile she's biding her time till you relax and she can start up again.


yes I agree, and that's why its best to communicate about boundaries early on before anything happens. 
Also why its important to marry someone who has similar standards and values and boundaries as we do.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17342489-post221.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17380730-post261.html

Thus far, I have presented many elements to a topic that is extremely complex in nature. I think that the biggest hang-up people have is in causality and intentionality. This is something that is hard to address in a fashion that pleases everyone. That is not exactly possible, but we can be technically accurate and explain it in a way that a great amount of individuals would agree with. The best starting point is to evaluate personal responsibility. I am an ardent advocate for an extreme point of view regarding the aforementioned aspect.* In this light, every single thing I do is on my shoulders. There are, of course, factors that contribute to or exacerbate my actions, but they do always end up being 100% mine. If I break my diet by eating pizza, then the dominant question would be why I walked into the pizza restaurant. Another factor might be if pizza was put on a plate and placed in front of me. In one aspect I allowed myself to get into a situation that almost guaranteed doing something wrong, or I failed to consider the ramifications. The other aspect was one in which the actions of another person acted to reduce my inhibitions. STILL, if I put the pizza in my mouth, then that action is on my shoulders. I should have done the following:

-Stepped away from the temptation
-Informed the other person of their mistake

My job as a person is to be proactive, mindful and considerate of the world around me. If I enter into the promise of fidelity, legally and morally, then it requires actions and thoughtfulness, in advance. Because I am not perfect, a relationship needs two individuals that work to support it. An organization is only as strong as.......... its weakest part, meaning that there are many reasons for one's partner to participate in the same manner as I described, but to also ensure, via boundaries, that I am doing the same. If I don't establish and support boundaries in my relationship, then I am allowing for a statistically significant increase in the chance of infidelity to occur. Significant factors that predict infidelity are marital distress, which tends to be implied as pretty severe in the research, along with immaturity, lack of emotional intelligence, lack of boundaries, sex addiction and other psychological problems. I presented research that explained the mindsets of many twenty-something individuals regarding their view of infidelity. Those that cheated had views that tended to support that behavior. That said, not all affairs occur in relationships that are on the path or verge of divorce. A couple could be relatively happy, but may present with a distinct lack of sexual intimacy. S/he may have a friend at work that they confide in or directly work with on a project. Harmless at first, there seems to be nothing wrong or perceptible violation of the primary relationship. In time, they become close and the urge to have sex feels right and will be very rewarding. This same scenario could occur in a marriage that had no distinct elements that were missing. Either way, there are many boundary violations that are evident! These violations exist even if s/he does not go on to have sex. Because of the presented research, we still look at this as a case that requires this person to undergo a process of self-development that is similar to those that infidels go through. This person's primary partner has to look inward, too. For example, why is the betrayed (or potentially) partner participating in a fashion that presents statistically significant risks of an affair? They would not go to relationship jail for their partner's offenses, but they (often) had ample opportunity to reduce those risks. That is what I expect from my partner.

To those that say the infidel is 100% to blame and the betrayed is 0% to blame, I beg to differ. To illuminate, consider a thought experiment. Go to the bank and withdraw 10 100 dollar bills from your account. Next, hold those bills behind your back and go into a crowded market. What will happen is going to surprise no person. Participating in a situation like this implies plenty of fault on the behalf of (you) the one that was robbed. That said, the robber is still going to be guilty of the same crime, requiring the same prison sentence as if s/he had swiped one's wallet from their pocket. It is up to us as individuals to decide whether we want to be the victims of others character flaws, especially when our actions expose them. Assuming zero fault by the victim/betrayed implies condonation of statistically significant risks.

What about the nearly perfect partner who is not complacent, then? You might have predicted right. Their decision to reconcile is going to be much harder and the infidel is likely more fundamentally flawed than one who cheated in an abusive relationship. Assuming there can be no reconciliation is as absurd as assuming there must be. The rest of it is subjective and our subjective values only go so far. How to recover on an intrapersonal level (post-affair) is quite feasible, assuming one uses viable tools. In the statistics post, I showed that the majority of couples reconcile after the exposure of an affair, and this wasn't exclusive to those that went through couples counseling. The mindsets of some preclude the possibility of forgiveness, but it is not universal, meaning that many betrayed spouses choose to reconcile and are actually happier than they were before the affair.

This thread has wonderful implications for minimizing the risk of an affair occurring in their relationship, along with marital satisfaction, in general.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

My story with infidelity:

I thought it would help to shed some light on my personal experience. What I say (on this forum) is often denounced, under the assumption that I would "know better" if I had, myself, experienced infidelity. I am not here to prove individuals wrong, but to show that there is a viable path forward. Too often, I see proferred advice that demands the unfaithful spouse to be perpetually punished for their actions. Not doing this (somehow) implies rug-sweeping. That's a false dichotomy. An astute reader might have gathered that I am explaining how to achieve the following:

-healing of the betrayed
-coming to terms with the affair
-successful and lasting reconciliation

(2nd and 3rd involve serious change from the unfaithful)

I will elaborate on it when I conclude my story, but I can say emphatically that I did not understand infidelity until I studied it.

On to me.......


I was married and in the military. We had gotten married young, before being sent around the world. I had not lived with my wife until nearly 2 years into the marriage. Honestly, the stress of military life left me with little emotional energy at the end of the day. Add on top of that a near-phobia to spending money. Needless to say, I wasn't the most fun to be married to. I had it in my mind that we needed to sacrifice for a few years so that we could own our home in full. She was a pretty outgoing person, needing some routine stimulation from other individuals. I am more on the introverted side, preferring to have very strong bonds with a few individuals. Most of my social needs were met while at work, and she needed more. Things were still going pretty well 1 year after living together and we sealed the deal by marrying in the church. Soon after, she became close friends with a girl from work who happened to also be married to an Army guy. They quickly became best friends and desired to hang out with her pretty often. I had no concerns with and made no resistance to it. Within a month or two, she desired me to meet her new group of friends. To be honest, I didn't like (or necessarily dislike them). Individuals here with military experience could likely understand why because of some social structures of the military. For that reason and having my time at night to re-energize, she ended up spending a lot more time away from home and with them.

At this time, I had been spending a lot of effort to get promoted and advance in my career. I earned promotion to Sergeant very quickly and had a number of new training efforts to go through. I was the prototypical good soldier and was the highest regarded in my unit at the time. One of the bigger reasons for the regard was due to my PT performance. Something started happening to me, though. Initially, I would feel an occasional deep and sharp pain in my left hip while running. Soon after being promoted, I was experiencing chronic pain and a progressive difficulty to walk and run. Being a stubborn soldier, I initially refused going to the clinic for evaluation. Besides, soldiers tend to be looked down on for being hurt or sick. I finally go to the clinic, but was told by my primary care physician that I am not active enough. Mind you, I was participating in morning PT and I was conducting PT for the overweight individuals; that is 2+ hours per day. There was a gap in her ignorance, as she did make a referral to have me evaluated by a physical therapist. It amounted to tens "therapy", which did nothing for me. At this time, my pain was constantly a 5+. This is where things get more interesting for this post.

I was sent off to Sergeant training, which is an incredibly stressful endeavor. It must have been on day 1 or day 2 that I called my wife and we got into an argument. I just hung up the phone. The next day, we had to go to the field for 4 days of training and evaluation. By the time I got over the disagreement, my phone was dead. I prepared myself to eat the crow that I deserved. We got back and I called her when I could. She was very cold, distant and unforgiving. I apologized, but the conversation didn't progress and it quickly ended. Later that night, I called her again and it was pretty brutal. She was inconsolable and it seemed as if I was written off. She sounded very erratic and told me she had to go to her friend's house. The next day, I graduated and prepared to go home with flowers. Again, the gestures did nothing and probably irritated her more. Luckily, things were smoothing over as the day was ending. After some rekindling of romance, it seemed that things were back to normal.

Did I mention that I ate crow? I realized I had made mistakes and wasn't holding up my end fully. I quickly became the model husband that I knew I needed to be. Over the next couple of weeks, things seemed pretty good. However, I did start to notice some changes. The first thing was that her sex drive was ^^. It was never a problem (before), but it did take me by surprise. And then there were the over-emphasized I love yous. Besides a raised eyebrow, things felt pretty right. After those first two weeks, I just felt like an affair was in the midst. I would periodically just ask her if she was cheating on me. She said no and I believed her enough. But then little disagreements turned into her having very big emotional hijackings. One time, she had to go to "the library" at 7 or 8 at night. And then I noticed peculiar cell phone usage. One night, her phone vibrated and she announced the need to go to the restroom. It felt wrong and I soon opened the door to the restroom. I saw her texting and she was very startled, immediately coming up with excuses. At this time, I knew there was something going on, but it wasn't fully registered in my conscious mind. That night, she was showering and left her phone out. I couldn't take the urge to not look. I didn't read any messages, but did look at the pics. One of the pictures was of a male friend of her work girlfriend, one who she previously referred to as ugly. All of a sudden he was in her phone and in an adorable pose. I still didn't "know" it. At this time, I was periodically in too much pain to meet her heightened sexual demand.

I forget some of the specifics of the next week or so, but she continued to distance herself and began shunning any kind of intimacy. So, my friend's birthday comes along and his wife organized a surprise birthday party for him. We would all be there and surprise him when he came back home. Me and the wife came, and so did many of my friends and acquaintances. There was no shortage of liquor here. The problem is that I very rarely drank and still don't. I have only been drunk a few times in my life and that night was one of them, and by far the worst of the few. I had 4 beers and one shot of liquor. While I was engaging with friends, wifey decided that the selection of food was undesired, so she said she was going to Mcdonalds. A couple of acquaintances began wondering or getting suspicious and she finally came back hours later..... with a bag full of uneaten food. Her story was a silly excuse that is not worth repeating. Now, I am not quite drunk yet and am outside watching my friend play beer pong and I see her inside on the couch..... texting and smiling. I suppose it felt like my wife had been stolen and all of that energy was going elsewhere. I "knew" it. I got upset and was asking her where she was. She went outside and I followed asking the same questions. Then she left. Afterward, I went back inside and had that shot of liquor I mentioned. Soon after, I was nearly unable to move. Luckily, one of the wives was a nurse and they induced me to vomit. I had no ride home, but someone did call her to come get me, leaving my vehicle there. All I remember was sleeping draped over the side of the bathtub. 

The next day, we had to go retrieve our other vehicle at my friend's house. She was pretty quiet on the way there and we got in separate cars. As we arrived home, I looked in my rearview mirror and I saw her smiling. Soon after, we were going to head up to visit a dog rescue to evaluate adopting a blind dog. On the way there, she finally came out and said what was on her mind. She spilled the beans and was still smiling. Mind you, I was driving on the highway when my stomach hit the pavement below us. I recall being short of breath and traumatized. I also remember asking if she loved him, to which she said no, but she was requesting 6 months to date him so that she could decide between us. In my trauma, we still went to the rescue and adopted said dog.


to be continued..


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

In the immediate aftermath, I finally heard the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" line. It felt like a tool used to forcibly disconnect from me, keeping me from trying. Even so, I had managed to have her agree to no contact and no visiting him. I was weary, so I had blocked facebook from the computer, which she only just started using to contact him. The agreement worked decently well, but not entirely. Further, she was asking to move out to have her own place. We didn't have that kind of money, so she moved into her work friend's house. Also, she refused to comply with the no contact agreement on her gal friend's birthday, so I told her I was coming. Could you imagine the discomfort of watching them interact with one another? Yes, I was a lot more physically capable than OM, but I didn't want to get in various forms of trouble by fighting. And then on Thanksgiving, we went back to my friend's house to eat, but she made sure to tell me that she was going to her friend's house to say hi, but would only go there once he was gone. She got a text and she was gone so quick, it'd make your head spin. Why? She made sure to get there in time to see him off, supposedly. However, she was there for at least 2 hours.

Soon after, she moved into her friend's house and this is when I became clinically depressed. I was suffering from my orthopedic issues and from the trauma of the affair and possibly losing everything I knew. My work performance took a hit, of course. She was at her friend's house for a month or two total, and only planned on seeing me to decorate the Christmas tree and to exchange gifts. By the time Christmas came, she pretty much had decided to return to me. And she did move back within a week or two.

That all said, the whole time I had no advice and no direction to solve this issue. I resorted to weak and manipulative behavior to try to get her back. I begged. I pleaded. I promised. I took all of the blame for what she had done. Had I resorted to anger and punishment, she would have left for good. Like I mentioned in the previous post, there are many other alternatives that I didn't know about. Frankly, I didn't have the E-IQ competencies developed enough to follow a good plan for personal healing and possible reconciliation. It wasn't until months later that I was able to really affect any sympathy for the trauma induced. In the months that followed, the relationship returned back to how it had been. The underlying issues that drove the affair were still there. The relationship was mostly good, but it is that last 10 or 20 percent that can make or break a couple.

My story is actually a lot longer than this. There were more affairs. We temporarily separated after the next affair (after affair 2 reconciliation). Eventually, we had grown apart and the threats of divorce would come after the smallest disagreement. At this point, I was already finally making a lot of the lasting changes that were needed from me. After so many threats of divorce, I finally said okay, but did soon after ask if she wanted to try counseling. Ultimately, I don't blame even 1% of the breakup on the affair. I blame the underlying dysfunction in the relationship for what had happened. She never sought out to cheat, she was just subconsciously seeking connection. How this happened is well explained in the information that I have already presented in the UAP. She was weak and couldn't resist the urge to connect with someone, even if it was another man.

To wrap this story up, none of it truly made sense until I formally began studying infidelity. The greatest thing that it has given me, personally, is closure. The affair doesn't bother me the least bit. It is in the past and I wish her well, hoping that she addresses her underlying flaws that allow for this to occur. My story should be quite obvious to many here. This doesn't have to be any person's story. We can make susceptible relationships rather affair-proof. If a couple is recovering from an affair, then there are proven methods to heal and make sure the relationship is on sound footing. Also, the treatment models for infidelity can be used by relationships that have not experienced an affair. They do include many tools to bring individuals closer together, engendering a stronger emotional/physical/sexual bond. That didn't happen to me. Ultimately, weakness drove this conflict-avoidant affair. She was weak and I was weak. Anger, indignance, and dismissal are not characteristically strong. The same things that I teach and coach, I use at home. It isn't always easy, but they really do work. I am grateful that I am able to use the tools from the best and brightest psychologists we have. My hope is that individuals don't ever feel what I felt. I also hope that individuals use the proven tools that actually make BOTH partners in a relationship happier. Do realize that you will have to learn a lot, and it is going to challenge what you already know.

As a final point to this post, I hope that individuals DO check my sources and make sure that what I am saying is what I claimed. One can't read one of the research articles or books on infidelity and not benefit from it.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Teaching Fidelity

Hello, wonderful people. Let's talk today more about reconciliation, but more directed toward the unfaithful. We will draw wisdom from Frank Pittman, a notable figure in the literature regarding infidelity. He is the firmest figure that I have seen in the Psych community, regarding his putting the infidel in their place.

To start off, we will look at some prudent quotes from F.P. that illuminate the complex realities of affairs. There is no such thing as a relationship that must end due to an affair revelation, nor is there a must for divorce. It could be an established boundary violation that trips the "you got served" alarm. It also may be in the context of a couple that married young and had no established boundaries, no solid, basic relationship skills, and, although they feel violated, they feel enough to give reconciliation a chance.



Frank Pittman said:


> Actually, in our experience [of 45 years], even if all hell breaks loose,
> if no one behaves too unforgivably when the secret hits the fan, the marriage has
> a good chance of recovery..............


What shocked me the most about the statistics of infidelity were the rates of successful reconciliation. We tend to think very simplistically, making binary decisions without too much further thought. However, once we are in a specific situation, we often give ourselves or others gray area to mitigate the harshness of a blunt yes/no. If affairs were as simple as is often claimed, the reconciliation rate would be near zero, but (as you saw in the statistics post) the majority of relationships continue to go on and "with effort, survive affairs if the affairs are exposed—and can even be better for it." 

You also saw the post about the counseling/therapeutic process that (after the initial crisis) the most important thing was to get the partners to begin speaking to each other. To many, it isn't something that is readily accepted, but the reality is that understanding (via empathy) greatly helps the healing process. A great number of unknowns exist for those that were betrayed. It is these unknowns that do the most damage to the person's emotional state of being. In fact, it is THE principle that underlies Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). Thoughts drive emotions. What most don't understand is the interplay between "automatic" thoughts and what I call directed thoughts. Left unchecked, the automatic thoughts tend to wreak havoc.

Yes, we are going to challenge the thoughts that the unfaithful partner is "evil". We are going to challenge the thoughts that they never loved the betrayed. What we will instead do is insert the most likely objective truth in its place. To facilitate this, we need the unfaithful to spill the beans. To most effectively realize these ends, we postpone this type of dialogue until cooler heads are prevailing. "Therapy must make it safe for embarrassing secrets to come out. Talking about life’s crises as they come along brings couples closer together and keeps crises from driving them apart. Of course, that works only if the conversation is polite and friendly." By making the environment safe, the unfaithful can explain what the heck they were thinking when they ran off with the milk man/maid. The affair is going to look more insignificant (to the infidel) and sillier. The hormonal drive that helped facilitate the affair will no longer be there to rationalize certain thoughts and behaviors.

As the unfaithful partner, it is your duty to put your failings on the table. In fact, a revealed affair is more likely to result in a reconciliation than a hidden affair. Secret-keeping is the antithesis to "intimacy". It isn't as if the affair can be considered a one-off event, or a 3-month pleasure cruise that did no damage, so long as it is kept a secret. There are collateral costs to this type of behavior, especially if relational distress was the excuse for the affair. So, we put the affair on the table, just as with any relationship problem. They are either resolved or not, leaving the couple to cope or dissolute. Your partner is going to feel some of the worst feelings imaginable. Whether or not you (at this time) desire reconciliation, it is critical to help the betrayed through their crisis. Nothing will make sense while emotions are running high, so the focus has to be purely on tending to the hurt caused by the revelation. This is not the time to be asking for forgiveness, as it is impossible for the betrayed to do so in this phase.

The betrayed is likely to feel depressing feelings. Their energy level will be weakened, which exacerbates the negative emotional cycle. They need company and polite nudges to stay active to fight the trauma. Staying active helps to keep the mind away from rapid ruminations about the affair. I can recall a few friends and acquaintances that greatly assisted me in the depths of my depression. Just having someone to talk to and be understood is such a help for the betrayed. If this helper can't be you (the unfaithful), then it is prudent to seek the assistance of a friend or family member. A mental health professional can do wonders. Knowing that the feelings will come and go does bring certainty to the healing process.

to be continued


Resource:

Pittman, F. (2005), Teaching Fidelity. Journal of Clinical Psychology


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Teaching Fidelity part 2

We have recently discussed the immediate trauma of an affair revelation and the needs for disclosure. However, we do need to add to disclosure somewhat.

In the post-affair recovery period, both partners are uneasy and possibly holding their cards closely. An unfaithful partner could even be refusing to end the affair, using it as a bargaining tool. In my opinion, this highlights the utter lack of true emotional closeness (intimacy) between affair partners. Of course, this is only true for that type of affair. Regardless of the answer, the unfaithful really needs to explain what happened and what led to it. If the conversation is mediated by a professional, then they might challenge subjective elements that are a bit too kind (lacking criticism). Often, the unfaithful uses language that paints a story of how they "fell in love" with the affair partner or were overcome by desire. Please do note the choice of words closely. Using this language is, often, a tool to partially excuse the behavior of the unfaithful. It becomes something that happened *to* them, rather than something they chose to do or some mistake they allowed to happen. The post that referenced the Journal of Phenomenological Psychology greatly explains this behavior. The source is a must read for those interested.

Investigating the Behavioral Elements

Getting to the point of deciding to make an attempt to reconcile is hard enough, but think about it in another way. If we completely excuse their behavior as something that they were not able to control, then what does this say about the relationship in the future? This is why I harp on logical consistency so much. If X is true, then what else follows. It is the antithesis to the non-sequitur. Regardless of the affair, the unfaithful partner has A LOT to learn and add to their list of self-development. Affairs should not happen. The alternatives are to, either, cope or move towards ending the relationship and then meeting someone new. Again, the aforementioned article delves greatly in this topic, as well.

In looking inward (introspection), we also don't want to make the fundamental attribution error, labeling ourselves as bad, worthless, or something else. There are a lot of elements to "who we are", and even a 6 month affair doesn't become the entirety of who we are. What the unfaithful need is to make an objective assessment of what happened. Usually, they are going to realize that they were violating marital boundaries long before any outright affair actually occurred. Even if it weren't tied to the possibility of a future affair, we also have to consider where intimacy was in the primary relationship. Often, we are talking about an affair relationship developing between co-workers. Too often, however, this growing relationship is not known and understood by the (to be) betrayed partner. That alone (lack of intimacy) could be a dominant sign of an impending divorce.

The unfaithful will see that they kept this new friendship a secret, possibly due to fear of judgment. Keeping secrets like that is not allowing the primary partner to enforce sane marital boundaries, something that no partner would want to happen to them. This type of behavior is what allows so many affairs to begin and continue. Failing to address it would likely result in some deja vu, for a number of previously unfaithful partners. Instead of taking the passive-aggressive route of diverting emotional and sexual energy to another man/woman, the unfaithful needs to address how they failed to engender positive relational developments in their primary relationship. Being afraid, unheard, or ignored is simply not a good enough excuse. I've been the stubborn guy. I've been with the stubborn gal. There are proven ways to address the concerns that might be driving the desire to cheat. If they never are addressed (using valid tools), then one simply moves towards dissolution in a slow and patient manner.

Often, the unfaithful partner will realize that the affair stemmed from weakness. They might have had a felt need to be praised and admired. They, also, might have feared ending the primary relationship due to the fear of how it would be received by friends and family. Really, to teach fidelity implies the need to teach Mindfulness and build Emotional Intelligence. Doing so makes it impossible for one to not take complete ownership of every action they take. It also puts objective reality on the table, and does so for every decision, so long as it is employed.

As the one who was unfaithful, you will be guilty for many things that led to it. Separate that which drove the affair (lack of sex, etc.) from the things you need to improve on. Think about it, you have to grow, regardless of whether or not the primary relationship survives. The betrayed partner has some improving of their own to do, but this is a separate issue. To me, there is an uplifting feeling to identifying personal flaws and mistakes made. To get to this point, one must put the reward in front of them. That is, you will see the benefits of being a much better person for having made the improvements. You get to be happier and healthier. You will have better tools to address _your_ relationship concerns. Taking responsibility for what you have done and what you do means that you have power over the path your life is on.

to be concluded in part 3


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Teaching Fidelity part 3

This part deals more with how to reconcile than the first parts did. I teach and coach a 3-phase plan to bring about positive improvement in a relationship, but for the unfaithful, we will have to look at it from the outside. Once the crisis period has ended from the affair revelation, it is time to work towards reconciliation (if desired). This is not an easy road for either individual. The betrayed partner is going to be struggling with getting over affair revelation, but also as to what the objective impact is on the future for all affected.

I have already mentioned the need for empathizing with the unfaithful partner early in the UAP. It is going to be as critical to empathize with the betrayed partner and to do so for a long time. Individuals often feel a certain way and immediately act on it. They, alternatively, might have an automatic thought that they act upon. Either way, the betrayed partner is going to be suffering from cognitive and emotional (affective) elements for some time. Their actions are going to be a bit unpredictable, even under the best circumstances. How you, as the unfaithful partner, approach reconciliation will drastically affect the resulting relationship that remains once the dust has settled.

One can be too desperate, driving the betrayed away or giving up all of the power in the relationship. Neither are valid options. It is better to see it as a relationship that doesn't have to be saved, which is the basis of acceptance.  It doesn't mean to let go, but simply means to participate in the challenge and not force a conclusion. While I said to not be too desperate, the betrayed partner is not going to be as capable to put in their share in the relationship. Even if the betrayed agreed to, they are going to be limited by the pain they feel and the need to evaluate your (the unfaithful) actions.

The betrayed will likely need a bit of hand-holding through this period. This is where you show them the changes that have been made. It helps to borrow some tools from the depression treatment toolbag, like keeping them active with positive activities. They might be quiet, dismissive, or even completely disconnected, making this matter quite difficult. Like any reconciliation, the hurt partner is likely going to need a lot of the feelings to come back before their participation in the relationship is obvious or back to normal. We do this by using subtle gestures of loving kindness. I call it 'outgoing love'. Expect resistance, but it tends to melt away. Being passive is a sure way to allow the relationship to end. You might have to apologize a few dozen times, but the point is not to draw out forgiveness. You take your licks by accepting the necessary changes and giving to the betrayed what every lover deserves.

I mentioned forgiveness in a few of the posts, especially as part of the actual therapeutic plan, but we are looking at it from the other side now. I tend to urge individuals to not rush to forgiveness, as we can not consciously choose our feelings. What always happens is that the betrayed forgives, but ends up struggling with what has happened for some time. Of course, I only advocate true forgiveness. The affair will be held against you (the unfaithful) for some time, but hopefully it will not be done so specifically for the purpose of winning an argument or hurting your feelings. Because of this, your partner might forgive you, but I would tell you to anticipate that it is not going to be the end of it. Expect some further challenges from the trauma that the affair had on each of you.


Fidelity

I will be making a future post on boundaries, but this is a great time to address the unfaithful's self-enforced boundaries and how to look out for potential violations and urges to cheat.

The best way to ensure that you remain successfully committed to your beloved is to look to objective standards. You see, when individuals cheat, they rationalize their behavior via subjective standards. What one can do is look at a short list of risks and pose a question or two to determine if the action is worth taking or not. For me, it is critical to evaluate my behavior, questioning myself as to what my romantic partner would feel if she knew what I was doing. If the answer is "what the hell is he doing", then I am positive that I should not take the pondered action. I can also ask myself how I would feel if the roles were reversed. I.e., how would I feel if she was having lunch with a male co-worker? 

Secondly, we need to evaluate how satisfied our relationship is and how many unfulfilled needs we have. Think about it, if I am walking about the street with the "I just need to get laid" urge, then I am posing a risk to the relationship, even if I have no intentions of cheating. Many individuals have these kinds of urges, but don't think they are receptive or at risk of cheating. Further, look at the desire and imagine that a perfect desired man/woman corners you and promises you discreet sex. Are you even prepared to handle this situation? Many individuals are not or they might even exacerbate the problem with alcohol. Individuals will express sexual or relational interest in individuals that are in committed relationships. They might even do it under the guise of befriending them first.

A relationship is, often, an informal contract and should be treated as such. There are certain elements that only the committed partner should be allowed to fulfill. There are some couples that are extremely durable and open to normal boundary risks, but those have to be viewed separately. For the rest of us, myself included, there are various avenues through which physical, emotional, and sexual connection may be established. Once the connection is there, it starts feeling right, which helps rationalize the behavior and avoids the guilty feeling that is expected to keep individuals faithful.

The goal isn't to protect against your pants falling off, but to protect yourself from connecting with a person that is not your primary partner. It could be as simple as someone just trying to be nice and attempting to help, noticing you in distress from an argument from last night. Connection to 3rd parties is not something that we consciously switch on and off. It is best seen as an automatic switch with numerous triggers, via external elements, like your night light. Staying faithful requires consciously protecting yourself, so that you can protect the relationship.

Again a much more thorough explanation will come in the boundaries post. A list of boundary violations and risks of infidelity will be included.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Well apparently 50% of married people never cheat.


Not sure where you get that number from. It's probably closer to 10%, but most will never know their partner stepped out.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Not sure where you get that number from. It's probably closer to 10%, but most will never know their partner stepped out.


It was a very large study done. I know may who have never cheated and never would.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Not sure where you get that number from. It's probably closer to 10%, but most will never know their partner stepped out.


Do you honestly believe that 90% of committed exclusive relationship partners cheat? 

I know you didn't get that from any sort of study, it just sounds good or something, or maybe validates your wayward wife's actions in your own mind or because it's been your own personal experience you project this onto others. But it's completely untrue.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> It was a very large study done. I know may who have never cheated and never would.





browser said:


> Do you honestly believe that 90% of committed exclusive relationship partners cheat?
> 
> I know you didn't get that from any sort of study, it just sounds good or something, or maybe validates your wayward wife's actions in your own mind or because it's been your own personal experience you project this onto others. But it's completely untrue.


The numbers are all over the place in regards to how many cheat. I've talked about it a lot in this thread, referencing the most widely cited research (Glass & Wright). It is safer to be VERY specific in how one qualifies "cheating". In _Treating Infidelity_ (Weeks, et. al, 2003), we see this dilemma brought up. If we are going to reference statistics, then lets describe what they mean. 20-70% is the range. The higher end includes more types of cheating. The low end of the range is exclusive of a lot of things. Consider it like you would a definition. Then there are the many studies that present statistics of about half of all married couples include an instance of an affair. The ultimate answer is very hard to know. Researchers can fail to get the accurate number for a lot of reasons, even if their methods are sound.

For me, it is best for each couple to make their own definition of what constitutes cheating and set appropriate boundaries. Solo masturbation could be cheating to one couple. "Soft-swapping" could be harmless to another.

That said, I have seen higher numbers than 70%, but that has only been from blogs or articles. Those sources might reference the published journal literature, but be taking it out of context or misquoting it. They also might reference some online survey done, which isn't really scientifically valid, given the inability to get a representative sample.

I have briefly referenced the statistics. If more information about them is desired, please make a specific request so that I can look through my library.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> The numbers are all over the place in regards to how many cheat. . 20-70% is the range.


So in summary, from your research, the statistics are useless.

Got it.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

browser said:


> So in summary, from your research, the statistics are useless.
> 
> Got it.



The low end of the range (20%) is going to be mostly only looking at sexual affairs.

The high end of the range (70%) is going to be looking at sex, kissing, watching pornography, flirting, etc.

The cleanest, most digestible number is around 50%, which includes a definition of cheating that the median individual can understand and relate to.

All I can say is that we have to understand what the statistics tell us and be very specific in doing so.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> The low end of the range (20%) is going to be mostly only looking at sexual affairs.
> 
> The high end of the range (70%) is going to be looking at sex, kissing, watching pornography, flirting, etc.


Where do foot massages fit into this whole thing? I'm asking for a friend.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

A final note to the unfaithful partner. Keep in mind that the process tends to be circular, needing to be repeated.

Have you apologized to the betrayed?

Did you acknowledge the extent of the infidelity? This involves disclosing details which allows the betrayed a lot of closure and understanding.

Have you demonstrated remorse?

Have you exhibited a willingness to change?

Have you cooperated to build safeguards to ensure behavior change?




Reference: _Treating Infidelity_, Forgiveness is a systemic phenomenon, p. 132 (Weeks, et. al., 2003)


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> The low end of the range (20%) is going to be mostly only looking at sexual affairs.
> 
> The high end of the range (70%) is going to be looking at sex, kissing, watching pornography, flirting, etc.
> 
> ...


While flirting etc isnt right its not cheating in the real sense. 
I have heard that about 50% of married people will cheat at some point. Sounds about right from my experience of the many I have known.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> While flirting etc isnt right its not cheating in the real sense.
> I have heard that about 50% of married people will cheat at some point. Sounds about right from my experience of the many I have known.


I agree with your 50% comment.

As far as what is and is not cheating, it is best for the individual couple to come up with what constitutes a violation of marital boundaries in terms of "cheating". This way we eliminate the excuses like the following:

-it was just sex
-it didn't mean anything
-we only kissed
-I wasn't going to sleep with him/her


The more difficult to address are those that take away energy from the relationship but aren't the typical type of cheating. This tends to concern the male partner diverting sexual and emotional energy to porn. There is a professional battle about how to define cheating, infidelity, and affairs, so I may present the results of this to help clarify terms for everyone here.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17342489-post221.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17380730-post261.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17428281-post265.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17430634-post266.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17457914-post267.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17467010-post268.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17491674-post269.html


Today's post is highly interactive and can be very rewarding to every single couple. That said, I urge every couple to consider implementing the contents of this post, although it seems to be written for newer couples. Most couples don't go through a formal process of setting boundaries and examining them, making this very helpful to do at any time. 

I was pondering for weeks as to how to approach boundaries in the UAP, but I ultimately decided to go a practical route versus being informative. Part of this is because the scientific literature doesn't single out boundaries that much. This is no stretch. What they do single out are risk factors. I give clients a real good lesson on boundaries, especially in self-enforcement, but for this forum I want to make it more couples-oriented.

The best source I found was from the Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, entitled Affair-Proofing Questions: Discussion Questions for Couples. The article is very straight forward, offering the typical prototype and explanation of an affair. The meat of the article is to help guide couples through a process of discovery, which ultimately brings them closer to one another. In a relationship, it is common for rules or expectations to be left unsaid, which leaves the other partner with too much of a leash. They often find themselves rationalizing bad behavior because it was never prohibited by their partner. 

All of these questions are directly from the research article. Discuss them with your beloved. When having this conversation, use my 80/20 rule, paraphrase and ask questions for understanding, and be honest. (80/20 means listening 80 percent of the time when its the other partner's turn). Save the disputes and arguments for later. This exercise is all about engendering mutual understanding. Coming to an agreement on the terms of the boundaries will be hashed out after each person's position is understood.

Enjoy!

Affair-proofing part 1 (1)

1. *How do you define infidelity?*

(my comments: It may be necessary to specifically ask about different aspects of infidelity, such as dinner with person of opposite sex, kissing, flirting, etc.. Make no assumptions)

2. Sophie has gotten close to a man she knows from work. Her husband, Ted,
knew nothing about the relationship until he discovered some flirtatious
emails between them. Ted is furious that Sophie is communicating with this
man. Although the man lives in a neighboring state, Ted cannot help but
wonder if they have been seeing each other during business trips. Sophie
says that the emails mean nothing —she was just joking around, and Ted
has nothing to worry about. *How can Ted and Sophie handle this situation?
What do they need to do next?*

3. A woman caught her partner downloading pornography from various
websites. The woman is outraged by what she sees as “sick behavior” and
feels betrayed. She cannot understand the “need” to use pornography. Her
partner is embarrassed and feels ashamed about getting caught but says,
“It’s no big deal. I was just curious.” *Is this a problem? What should the
woman do? What should her partner do?*

4. *Assuming a couple wants to stay together, what can they do to get beyond
an affair?

*

5. *Do you have to fully trust your partner to begin healing your relationship
after an affair? Can you really trust someone who has cheated on you?
How do you rebuild trust?*

6. A couple has been together for eight years and has three children together.
Recently, it was discovered that one of the partners had an emotional
affair that eventually turned into a sexual affair. The unfaithful partner
is scared, confused, and unsure about ending the affair. *How can this
couple handle this situation? What do they need to do?*

7. Jim had an affair two years ago and Lisa is still grieving and angry at him.
According to Jim, she brings up the affair 5 to 6 times each day. She still
feels mad or upset most of the time, even though Jim says it is over, that he
is sorry, and that he has stayed faithful. *How can Jim and Lisa handle this
situation? What do Jim and Lisa need to do next?*

8.* How do affairs negatively affect children?*

9. *What can you do to affair-proof your relationship?*


I will post the affair-prevention plan next. It is another activity for the couple.



Reference:

1). Piercy, F., et. al (2011). Affair-Proofing Relationships: Discussion Questions for Couples. Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, 10:345–362, 2011


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17342489-post221.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17380730-post261.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17428281-post265.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17430634-post266.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17457914-post267.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17467010-post268.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17491674-post269.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17553186-post280.html

Affair proof your relationship. This is a simple exercise meant to increase understanding and awareness on the topic, but to also come up with a more formal plan on what constitutes the relational boundaries. Discuss with your partner all of these questions, each coming up with a response as it relates to you, your partner, and the relationship.



• What behaviors would you consider to be infidelity and why?
• What guidelines do you and your partner want to agree upon around
socializing and communicating with others?
• What understandings and expectations do you and your partner have
around computer use, pornography, and chat rooms?
• What can you and your partner do to prioritize and nurture your relationship?
• Are you willing to promise to your partner that you will remain faithful?
Consider making that promise together at a special time and place.
• What can you and your partner do to nurture emotional intimacy in your
relationship?
• How might you and your partner show appreciation and love to one another
on a regular basis?
• What can you and your partner do to keep your sex life alive?
• How will you celebrate your love, anniversaries, birthdays, and other special
occasions?
(my added questions)
• What will you do to protect the relationship from boundary violations relating to your behavior?
• What will you do to protect the relationship from boundary violations relating to my behavior?
• What do you consider boundary violations.?

Reference:

1). Piercy, F., et. al (2011). Affair-Proofing Relationships: Discussion Questions for Couples. Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, 10:345–362, 2011


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17342489-post221.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17380730-post261.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17428281-post265.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17430634-post266.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17457914-post267.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17467010-post268.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17491674-post269.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17553186-post280.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17569978-post281.html
*
What is infidelity?*

I have received a lot of questions and a bit of challenges on this topic, so it would do me well to give a good explanation. The most important thing I can possibly tell you about this topic is that there is a lot of subjectivity to it, meaning that it is not a black and white subject with only one definition. Infidelity means different things to different people and this requires a cohesive approach to every relationship to navigate these issues and to set meaningful boundaries. When in doubt, ask. Never assume that something is or is not a boundary violation. Even if it isn't "infidelity", it can still erode trust and hurt your partner.

For the definition of these matters, I will be using _Treating Infidelity_ (Weeks, et. al, 2003).

A definition that I usually use focuses on the fact that it is a deviation of physical and emotional energy away from the primary relationship. Even if a husband had sex with his secretary, came home, and kissed his wife on the cheek, we are still going to witness a loss of energy to his wife. Shaw (1997) say as much, defining it as "Emotional and/or physical intimacy secretly diverted from the primary relationship." This definition helps us snag the "it was just sex" or "it was nothing, I can't tell my spouse" crowd.

Additional criteria include (p. xiv):

-A betrayal of partner's trust (Glass & Wright, 1997).
-Deception to circumvent discovery of boundary violations (Pittman, 1989).
-Secrecy and lies to create confusion and pain in the partner (Brown, 1991b.)
-Threat to the security of the relationship (Spring, 1996).

Can include:
-sex
-flirting
-touching
-internet activity (porn, instant messaging, emailing)
-"more than friends"

Extramarital sex is defined as: "Genital sexual involvement outside the marriage without express knowledge or consent of one's partner."

What constitutes an emotional affair (p. xvi)?

-A great deal of intimacy. [intimacy includes sharing personal information]
-A strong sense of commitment.
-Sharing of thoughts and feelings that are not revealed to one's committed partner. [If what you are doing is not wrong, then you'd be able to tell your partner.]
-Powerful urges to spend time with the affair partner.
-Secrecy surrounding the relationship.
-A sense in the betrayed partner that matters that are private to the couple are being discussed with the affair partner.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

> Extramarital sex is defined as: "Genital sexual involvement outside the marriage without express knowledge or consent of one's partner."


Just doesn't seem like a very accurate definition of the word/phrase, does it?? Did you jot this down from one of those journals wrong.

Think about it ~~~

If my wife has express knowledge of it *OR* consents to it, my having genital sexual involvement" with someone besides her would somehow magically become not "extramarital sex"????

I looked up "express knowledge" and this is what I got: 



> *Express* *notice* is actual knowledge or notice given to a party directly. It implies real delivery of information to a party. It does not arise from any inference.


The way this is written, if accurate, means any wayward spouse that walked out of the house telling their betrayed spouse in no uncertain terms or by say, text or email, that they are off to bang bang their affair partner that, due to such marital partner having EXPRESS KNOWLEDGE of the genital sexual involvement, it is no longer "extramarital sex".

The more I think about this I just think you made a mistake.


Wikipedia:Extramarital sex occurs when a married person engages in sexual activity with someone other than his or her spouse. From a different perspective, it also applies to a single person having sex with a married person 

Really, a single person having sex with anyone at all since they'd be unmarried, would be "extramarital".


An even shorter definition: Sexual relations occurring outside marriage. {add the word "Genital" if you like}


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Catch up on the UAP
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
> ...


Good list of questions, RT. I suspect Dug and I will have all the same answers, but will ask him, anyway.

I think it is good that you are sharing all this research-based info. While experience is also a good teacher, it can be highly subjective and greatly influenced by emotion.

Have you come across anything in your research that describes the way others outside the marriage perceive the infidelity in a marriage, and how that feedback can be helpful to the two people in the marriage, if they can hear it?

For example, sometimes I read an experience of infidelity here, and I am just amazed the man or woman waited as long as they did before cheating, or even wanted to reconcile afterwards. But I often hesitate to share that, as the person telling the story often seems unlikely to appreciate the perspective. 

And yet, if they could hear it, it seems to me it could give them a chance to reconsider their own perceived victimhood (which my therapist once said is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to recovery for betrayed spouses, as they can get stuck in it). Being able to hear a different perspective than their own could offer them an opportunity for empowerment, to make changes that could perhaps prevent infidelity, either with the current partner, or in a future relationship.

Anyway, just wondering if there is any actual research on this, as opposed to simple opinion. And thanks again for trying to bring some objectivity and science into this highly emotionally charged subject.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@jld:

I am curious if your counselor would hold the same opinion of victimhood towards a rape victim.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> @jld:
> 
> I am curious if your counselor would hold the same opinion of victimhood towards a rape victim.


I don't think so, far. Rape is a crime of violence.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I will grant you that violence distinguishes rape from infidelity.

Yet there are many parallels. The emotional trauma from both is indisputable. PTSD is not uncommon for both victims of rape and infidelity. Where I struggle with your (and your counselor's) stance is that BS's are in fact victims. Not saints; but victims nonetheless. Both have actions in the lead up to the event that could be considered contributory, yet one is viewed as such, while the other is not. Why? Where is the consistency?

To suggest that they should simply remove themselves from the victim chair without properly working themselves through the emotional trauma of infidelity is reckless at best, and completely lacking in empathy at worst.



jld said:


> I don't think so, far. Rape is a crime of violence.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I will grant you that violence distinguishes rape from infidelity.
> 
> Yet there are many parallels. The emotional trauma from both is indisputable. PTSD is not uncommon for both victims of rape and infidelity. Where I struggle with your (and your counselor's) stance is that BS's are in fact victims. Not saints; but victims nonetheless. Both have actions in the lead up to the event that could be considered contributory, yet one is viewed as such, while the other is not. Why? Where is the consistency?
> 
> To suggest that they should simply remove themselves from the victim chair without properly working themselves through the emotional trauma of infidelity is reckless at best, and completely lacking in empathy at worst.



She is a very nice lady, far, about 60, with decades of experience in counseling. I am sure she offers a lot of empathy to all her clients.

But she was very clear that day that betrayed spouses can get stuck in victimhood. That is her quote, not mine (although I do agree with her). I had shared with her something I had read here on TAM, and she made that comment quite emphatically.

Here is another thing she once shared with me: she said she would really like to level with her clients sometimes on how she thinks they are holding themselves back from their own healing in one way or another (on various issues, not just infidelity). But she said if she feels they are not ready to hear it, she generally does not do it.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> Good list of questions, RT. I suspect Dug and I will have all the same answers, but will ask him, anyway.
> 
> I think it is good that you are sharing all this research-based info. While experience is also a good teacher, it can be highly subjective and greatly influenced by emotion.


Thank you, JLD.


> Have you come across anything in your research that describes the way others outside the marriage perceive the infidelity in a marriage, and how that feedback can be helpful to the two people in the marriage, if they can hear it?


There is a lot of this in the research literature. I will look in my research library to see if there is a specific study about the external perspective. Either way, I will come back with something.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Thank you, JLD.
> 
> There is a lot of this in the research literature. I will look in my research library to see if there is a specific study about the external perspective. Either way, I will come back with something.


Thank you, RT.


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## DepressedDiva (Mar 23, 2017)

jld said:


> Have you come across anything in your research that describes the way others outside the marriage perceive the infidelity in a marriage, and how that feedback can be helpful to the two people in the marriage, if they can hear it?


🙄 public opinion has generally not been helpful for me - My friends have all told me to divorce my husband & my (christian) family members have told me to stay. My husbands friends generally have supported him saying that I'll come around 😡



jld said:


> *For example, sometimes I read an experience of infidelity here, and I am just amazed the man or woman waited as long as they did before cheating, or even wanted to reconcile afterwards. *But I often hesitate to share that, as the person telling the story often seems unlikely to appreciate the perspective.


That comment amazes me - Why be amazed that the man or woman waited to cheat or wanted to reconcile? As if cheating and/or leaving was there only option?? I am glad you 'hesitated' to share that perspective with betrayed spouses. 

When I read the stories here I am amazed at how selfish & awful the wayward spouses generally are. And I am not saying that the betrayed spouse should not be divorced/left but I am saying that when you chose to make a commitment with another person then you have the responsibility to let them know that the relationship isn't working & the commitment is over *before* engaging with another person.



jld said:


> And yet, if they could hear it, it seems to me it could give them a chance to reconsider their own perceived victimhood (which my therapist once said is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to recovery for betrayed spouses, as they can get stuck in it). Being able to hear a different perspective than their own could offer them an opportunity for empowerment, to make changes that could perhaps prevent infidelity, either with the current partner, or in a future relationship.


I know everyone's circumstances are different but my husband was a thousand miles away and I couldn't be with him because I was ill and also caring for our young children. He chose to remain in the military while I was sick, How could I give him what he apparently 'needed' if he's gone & I am ill?? I admit that our sex life wasn't the best the year before he left but we did have sex at least weekly despite me feeling like death the entire time (and being at death's door the entire time).

I have no idea what I could have done to stop him from cheating  I assumed we were exclusive after 15 years together at the time and he called me *EVERY* day, several times a day. As far as I'm concerned yes I am a victim - I guess I should have left our kids or made them move temporarily for 7 months to guard his 🍆 24/7??!! 😤 I guess I shouldn't have gotten sick :scratchhead: stupid me!

Yup he should do nothing while I have to move heaven & earth to be with his cheating a$$


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

DepressedDiva said:


> 🙄 public opinion has generally not been helpful for me - My friends have all told me to divorce my husband & my (christian) family members have told me to stay. My husbands friends generally have supported him saying that I'll come around 😡
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like it has been a very challenging and painful year for your family, DD. 

Has any of the research presented on this thread offered you some insight into your situation?

My understanding of this thread is that it is meant to be a more academic discussion of the research that social scientists have done on the subject of infidelity. That would seem to make it a bit separate and unique from most of the other threads in this subforum, which may perhaps be described as individual case studies with commentary often high in affect.

While perhaps drier in presentation, this thread does seem to offer the opportunity for a more dispassionate look at this subject.

Is that accurate, RT? Or have I misunderstood the purpose of the thread?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Anyone who thinks there can be a 'dispassionate' discussion about infidelity on TAM, or anywhere BS's congregate, is delusional. And anyone, including all of you with initials for nicknames, who really thinks BS's need to share the blame for being cheated on, doesn't belong in CWI.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Anyone who thinks there can be a 'dispassionate' discussion about infidelity on TAM, or anywhere BS's congregate, is delusional. And anyone, including all of you with initials for nicknames, who really thinks BS's need to share the blame for being cheated on, doesn't belong in CWI.


The blame is for the contribution to the underlying relational dysfunction. In addition, intersystemic approaches explain the contributions of one's actions to those of another's.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> Thank you, RT.


I have a research article in my library that discusses your question. As suspected, it is in a social psychology journal. I'll discuss the article's findings within a week.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> Sounds like it has been a very challenging and painful year for your family, DD.
> 
> Has any of the research presented on this thread offered you some insight into your situation?
> 
> ...


The research is critical for understanding the complex nature of affairs and how to successfully heal from them, whether or not a reconciliation occurs. Many individuals seek out a counselor that has no specific training and has never researched infidelity. An overview of this thread is a way that a couple could broaden their understanding and be successfully selective in getting appropriate help.

My goal here is, ultimately, to give individuals an idea as to what the best course of action is. There are ways to ensure one forever suffers from being cheated on and there are ways to heal. It can (and often is) a tough path, but I would choose the path that leaves me feeling happy and healthy at the end.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I know of 3 cheating spouses myself who admitted that their spouse had done nothing wrong, and it wasn't that their marriage was bad that led them to do this. Many will just cheat because the opportunity comes up and they have no boundaries or moral values. Others will have opportunities but will reject them because they are aware that faithfulness is vital and they refuse to hurt those they love. In the end it comes down to the character and integrity of the person. 

There are the very occasional cases where one spouses refuses to have any intimacy for years where you can sort of understand, but even then cheating is wrong. They should have faced the issues in their marriage first, and if nothing could be done, then ended that marriage. 

I have seen far too many lives in my own family devastated by cheating, the ONLY one who is responsible is the one who does it. Unless they take FULL responsibility and not blame everyone but themselves, then there cant be any chance of healing and moving on. 

For many the betrayal is too much and the only solution is to legally end what is already destroyed by the infidelity.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> The research is critical for understanding the complex nature of affairs and how to successfully heal from them, whether or not a reconciliation occurs. Many individuals seek out a counselor that has no specific training and has never researched infidelity. An overview of this thread is a way that a couple could broaden their understanding and be successfully selective in getting appropriate help.
> 
> My goal here is, ultimately, to give individuals an idea as to what the best course of action is. There are ways to ensure one forever suffers from being cheated on and there are ways to heal. It can (and often is) a tough path, but I would choose the path that leaves me feeling happy and healthy at the end.


 My husbands first wife cheated after 23 years of marriage and divorced him. He knows that adultery is a complete no no as I do, and he also knows that he wasn't responsible for what she did. He also healed pretty quickly and we met within months. We have been married for 12 years this year, he is the nicest, most easy to please, and easy going man I have ever met and my family loves him. 
I am still totally amazed and puzzled as to why she did what she did and rejected such a lovely guy. Some people just don't seem to appreciate what they have and no one will ever be good enough for them. Needless to say her relationship (with a three times divorced man), only lasted till just after the divorce was completed and all these years later she is still alone.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

On the issue of affair proofing one's marriage a surprising adherent/practitioner arises from the smoke of the adulterous Trump administration:

MIKE PENCE DOESN'T DINE ALONE WITH OTHER WOMEN OR ATTEND EVENTS WITH ALCOHOL WITHOUT HIS WIFE OR WORK LATE/ALONE WITH WOMEN STAFFERS


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/30/mike-pence-doesnt-dine-alone-with-other-women-and-were-all-shocked/?utm_term=.a89e0851357a


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Quality said:


> On the issue of affair proofing one's marriage a surprising adherent/practitioner arises from the smoke of the adulterous Trump administration:
> 
> MIKE PENCE DOESN'T DINE ALONE WITH OTHER WOMEN OR ATTEND EVENTS WITH ALCOHOL WITHOUT HIS WIFE OR WORK LATE/ALONE WITH WOMEN STAFFERS
> 
> ...


He is a wise and godly man. This is also the rule that Billy Graham had. Many others also, including us. 

Many, especially women, have attacked him for it which is very sad.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I have a research article in my library that discusses your question. As suspected, it is in a social psychology journal. I'll discuss the article's findings within a week.


Thanks for taking the time to do a search of the literature, RT. Your efforts are appreciated.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> The blame is for the contribution to the underlying relational dysfunction. * In addition, intersystemic approaches explain the contributions of one's actions to those of another's*.


This sounds reasonable, yet may be very challenging for some people to hear. It may be one of the most difficult ideas for counselors to explain and for some of their clients to accept. 

But for those who can, it surely expedites healing.

If you have specific references to this you have come across, it could be interesting to see them, RT.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Quality said:


> On the issue of affair proofing one's marriage a surprising adherent/practitioner arises from the smoke of the adulterous Trump administration:
> 
> MIKE PENCE DOESN'T DINE ALONE WITH OTHER WOMEN OR ATTEND EVENTS WITH ALCOHOL WITHOUT HIS WIFE OR WORK LATE/ALONE WITH WOMEN STAFFERS
> 
> ...


Maybe he does not trust himself alone with either alcohol or women.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

​


jld said:


> This sounds reasonable, yet may be very challenging for some people to hear. It may be one of the most difficult ideas for counselors to explain and for some of their clients to accept.
> 
> But for those who can, it surely expedites healing.
> 
> If you have specific references to this you have come across, it could be interesting to see them, RT.


Indeed, you have identified one of the hardest things the betrayed could hear. 

1. We are responsible for everything we do.

2. We are responsible for the decision to not do.

3. A combination of 1 and 2 increase or decrease the likelihood of an affair occurring within almost every relationship (some individuals would never cheat).

In the context of an affair resulting from dysfunction and dissatisfaction, "If the infidelity is viewed as a symptom of the couple's dysfunction, then it can be proposed that both parties share some responsibility for allowing the relationship to deteriorate.....at the same time, the therapist must help the partner who had the affair to accept personal responsibility for it without being judgmental or blaming." (Weeks, et. al, 2003, p117-118)

"Circularity

The concept of circularity is a quintessential component of systems thinking. It presupposes that spouses react to each other and in doing so influence their partners by their own actions. Thus, the behaviors are reciprocal or interlocking. To encourage systemic thinking in the couple, ask the partners to observe how their behaviors fit together, even when it is not obvious at first glance. They are to look for the impact that their conduct has on the other person and vice versa, keeping track of the process as it unfolds. Help them to see the nonlinear nature of communication, emphasizing that there are no beginnings and endings--instead, their interactions occur within a loop or circle in which one stimulates the other, and so forth. Circularity is one of the most difficult concepts for a couple to grasp, and they need much direction from the systemic therapist to use this powerful idea." (Weeks, et. al, 2003, p189-190)


I am in a long-term process of trying to qualify what the "non-dysfunctional" relationship looks like to determine the myriad reasons for an affair to occur. There is gray area between healthy and dysfunction and that is the focus of my long-term inquiry. I have yet to see research that examines it in this manner. Some partners are simply prone to cheating and I will be able to provide systematic advice for how to identify those risk factors, especially in the context of mate selection.


Reference:
Weeks. G., et. al, 2003. Treating Infidelity: Therapeutic Dilemmas and Effective Strategies.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> ​
> Indeed, you have identified one of the hardest things the betrayed could hear.
> 
> 1. We are responsible for everything we do.
> ...


This seems so true. So painfully true. And so very hard to face, when we are being honest with ourselves.



> In the context of an affair resulting from dysfunction and dissatisfaction, "If the infidelity is viewed as a symptom of the couple's dysfunction, then it can be proposed that both parties share some responsibility for allowing the relationship to deteriorate.....at the same time, the therapist must help the partner who had the affair to accept personal responsibility for it without being judgmental or blaming." (Weeks, et. al, 2003, p117-118)


Very reasonable conclusion.



> "Circularity
> 
> The concept of circularity is a quintessential component of systems thinking. It presupposes that spouses react to each other and in doing so influence their partners by their own actions. Thus, the behaviors are reciprocal or interlocking. To encourage systemic thinking in the couple, ask the partners to observe how their behaviors fit together, even when it is not obvious at first glance. They are to look for the impact that their conduct has on the other person and vice versa, keeping track of the process as it unfolds. Help them to see the nonlinear nature of communication, emphasizing that there are no beginnings and endings--instead, their interactions occur within a loop or circle in which one stimulates the other, and so forth. Circularity is one of the most difficult concepts for a couple to grasp, and they need much direction from the systemic therapist to use this powerful idea." (Weeks, et. al, 2003, p189-190)


Also very reasonable.

Sometime back I was upset with Dug about something, and let him know it, very clearly and very emotionally (loudly ). He listened patiently, and then calmly and quietly made a logical, thought-provoking point.

Completely turned the situation around.



> I am in a long-term process of trying to qualify what the "non-dysfunctional" relationship looks like to determine the myriad reasons for an affair to occur. There is gray area between healthy and dysfunction and that is the focus of my long-term inquiry. I have yet to see research that examines it in this manner. Some partners are simply prone to cheating and I will be able to provide systematic advice for how to identify those risk factors, especially in the context of mate selection.
> 
> 
> Reference:
> Weeks. G., et. al, 2003. Treating Infidelity: Therapeutic Dilemmas and Effective Strategies.


Sounds like research well worth doing, RT. I look forward to your sharing it with us.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Update:

1. I am working on putting a narrative together regarding the impact of social influences on the recovery from an affair. I have several research articles that touch the subject, but I want a bit more so that I don't have to fill the gaps myself. I am communicating with some Psychologists to see if there is more out there that I haven't found.

2. There is a wonderful "to do" list covered in some of the research for both the infidel and the betrayed. I recently offered lengthy several posts for the infidel, but the next post in this context will be much more succinct and action-oriented.

3. I have briefly touched on the subject of "why" one should take the expert advice, regardless of how wrong or hard it sounds to do. I have several research publications that tell us exactly what happens when we don't. I greatly look forward to writing the post on this subject.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Relationship Teacher said:


> The blame is for the contribution to the underlying relational dysfunction. In addition, intersystemic approaches explain the contributions of one's actions to those of another's.


Then you're talking about the state of the marriage, not the cheating. One has squat to do with the other. Keep your intersystemic approaches where they belong.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Maybe he does not trust himself alone with either alcohol or women.


Maybe he has seen far too many affairs and idiots making complete fools of themselves when they drink.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Then you're talking about the state of the marriage, not the cheating. One has squat to do with the other. Keep your intersystemic approaches where they belong.


Hope, what I say is purely based on the body of infidelity research. If *you* have a problem with the empirical realities, then I suggest you publish an article that proves them wrong or publish an article that explains how your view is correct.

The "intersystemic" approach is not mine, it was developed by this man https://www.unlv.edu/people/gerald-weeks

"Circularity" is part of "systems theory", also. Systems theory is something you can't avoid if you go to therapy or counseling.



Do you, Hope1964, have a single piece of evidence that disputes "Circularity"?

Can you explain how a lacking marriage has nothing to do with the decision to cheat *in the real world*?

Do you have evidence that dispels the extremely strong (positive) correlation between lacking marriages and infidelity?

If they have "squat" to do with one another, then tell me how *you* can more successfully predict who cheats and who doesn't.

What is your proposed plan to help victims of infidelity? Does it work?

I know from the link in your signature that you own at least one book on infidelity. What does it say?


Hope1964, people need real solutions to their real problems. I understand what you have been through, but that doesn't mean that we have to coddle victims of infidelity to the point of denying reality to them. If we did that, then we can reliably predict a sustained likelihood of them being further victimized. The entire body of research would have to be wholly overturned for your view to be the reality. Instead, we must take the approach to maximize helping victims of infidelity based on what is proven to work.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Duguesclin said:


> Maybe he does not trust himself alone with either alcohol or women.


Possibly. Or he doesn't want to give the impression of impropriety.

I don't go to church, am not part of a faith, and I practice that rule. I pretty much always have. To not do so gives the wrong impression. It's not about my lack of self control. It's about not even bothering to put yourself in situations that are bound to appear negative.

Dinner dates with non-family of the opposite sex probably should go out the window when you're married.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

RT, there was an episode of Law and Order SVU on a couple weeks ago that made me think of your thread because it was about people looking for reasons to not be responsible for their horrific crimes. 

"Genes"	March 22, 2017	1815	5.19[31]
A woman comes to SVU saying she was raped by a man. When the detectives go to arrest the man, he claims that he has a rape gene, which he can't help. The case becomes very controversial and causes extreme tension in the squad room between the detectives and attorney's office. The man's claim causes Benson to think back to both her and Noah's rapist fathers, making her worry, albeit briefly, if Noah has any chance of following in his footsteps.

You can say all you want about what people SHOULD take from your theories, but what many WILL take is that hey, my marriage was ****ed up and that's why I cheated. No matter how you spin that, it's wrong. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, so what you're doing is giving every cheater a free pass, whether you think that's what you're doing or not. Sadly you're not the only one here doing that either.

I'm not going to play "post a link to back yourself up" with you. And I certainly won't ever be seeking your services out. I hope my posts on here result in others not doing so as well, because your theories will be damaging to a lot of them. I've been pretty consistent over the years here about the fact that the cheating and the marriage need to be treated as two separate entities.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Then you're talking about the state of the marriage, not the cheating. One has squat to do with the other. Keep your intersystemic approaches where they belong.


This is getting “when” and “why” mixed up. A person who is prone to cheating is someone who sees that as an option and would do it under certain circumstances. When something happens within those circumstances, that person will cheat. This isn’t why they cheat, it is when they cheat.
Their cheating is not because there was a problem in the relationship or in their personal life. It is because they are at heart the kind of person who sees it as an option and that is when it will become a problem.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> You can say all you want about what people SHOULD take from your theories, but what many WILL take is that hey, my marriage was ****ed up and that's why I cheated. No matter how you spin that, it's wrong. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, so what you're doing is giving every cheater a free pass, whether you think that's what you're doing or not. Sadly you're not the only one here doing that either.


:scratchhead:

#1 Read what I actually wrote.

#2 I will be presenting the Gottman and Glass interpretation on infidelity in a week or so. Because the words and quotes I have provided have been distorted beyond belief, I will, instead, provide screen shots of important passages (with context) from 

https://www.amazon.com/Not-Just-Fri...d=1491871859&sr=8-1&keywords=not+just+friends

and

https://www.amazon.com/Seven-Princi...e=UTF8&qid=1491871874&sr=8-1&keywords=gottman

#3 I am authoring this thread as a side project to the immense research I am performing. As I research another question, I present information here that can help individuals understand infidelity and how to recover from it, whether or not that includes a reconciliation. These aren't "links" or internet articles that I am providing information from. This is research in prestigious peer-reviewed journals that, unfortunately, the common individual doesn't have access to without spending inordinate amounts of money.

#4 These aren't my theories. 

#5 Individuals should take this advice because it is expert advice. If I never existed, the advice that I have presented in this thread would still be there. Those same psychologists would still have written those same words. The research would still have been cited in relationship books and books on infidelity, as well as in training materials for practicing clinicians. I have provided citations for every paraphrase and quote I have made. It is all verifiable.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17315226-post124.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17329386-post219.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17342489-post221.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17380730-post261.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17428281-post265.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17430634-post266.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17457914-post267.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17467010-post268.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17491674-post269.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17553186-post280.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17569978-post281.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17626489-post282.html

Thanks @jld for the idea for this post. It was an intriguing question that was asked and, honestly, I spent many hours looking for information to hopefully answer it. The unfortunate thing is that little, if any, has been said on the topic. I have a ton of research that the field experts provide to explain how couples recover, specifically, pertaining to the process. For whatever reason, the scope of much of that research comes from the counselor's point of view and they don't ever mention social support or negative social factors.
*
What is the effect of "others" in the post-affair revelation period. *

I conversed with a number of Psychologists to see if they knew of some research directly on it. I received many emails telling me "sorry, I can't say that I do." Luckily, some had touched on the subject and they sent me their research (Thank You!). The "limitation" or caveat to this post is that because little direct research has been done, we don't know enough; that is, this post will only shed some light and should be taken with a grain of salt, with the expectation that more information would come in the future that could more fully answer the question.

The first source comes from the Journal of Family Issues titled, What Helps Couples Rebuild Their Relationship After Infidelity? This was interesting because they looked at determining "why" couples stayed together after infidelity, meaning, that the ones covered in the research were those that had chosen to work on the relationship and it paid off. 



Abrahamson said:


> The key themes acknowledged by participants as reasons for maintaining the relationship were motivation to stay together, treasuring acts of kindness, meaning making, and *social support.*





Abrahamson said:


> Support. Exclusive and nonexclusive partners experienced the role of support from others in very different ways. Exclusive partners were generally consoled by family and friends for their partner’s infidelity. However, this was experienced as a conditional support. They knew from listening to the media that societal norms were often in favor of ending the relationship. They expected that they would be cautioned against deciding to stay in the relationship and work things out, and perhaps judged for it. One of the exclusive informants described feeling judged for staying in the relationship: My family and friends thought I was mad [crazy] to even contemplate staying with the bastard. (Cheryl)





continued said:


> On the other hand, the nonexclusive partners found that they were criticized for their infidelity, and they received much less support from family and friends. Instead, they found others were skeptical that they would be able to change their behavior. For example, one nonexclusive partner said, I told my parents and siblings. One of my sisters was very critical of me which hurt a lot. My mother showed understanding as she had been unfaithful 12 years before, but my father found it difficult as it took him back to his own pain. Maybe, he identified with my wife more than me. However, he said he could understand how it happened, especially as my wife was not emotionally there for me. (Anton)


Note: In this research pub., exclusive means the faithful one, nonexclusive means the unfaithful one.

It was very interesting to see the multiplexed/layered/diverse responses that each partner encountered. What would also be interesting would be to see some research for the more religious community. I have worked with some women who were being pressured into staying in their relationship for religious and reasons relating to family pride. That view wasn't captured in this research. From my own experience, I didn't seek help from family. In fact, no one in my family knows of the multiple affairs that my ex had. I did seek help from co-workers, but they didn't try to push me one way or the other.

How do others play into this? Well, ultimately, it depends upon a number of factors, including their experience of having cheated or being cheated on. We know that those that have cheated before are more accepting of those that have been "observed" cheating (Sharpe, et. al, 2013). We can see this in Anton's experience with his parents. His father was there for him, but couldn't identify with Anton due to the prior trauma that the father experienced. The mother more readily identified with him.

In line with Cheryl's experience, Smith, et. al (2014) found that the betrayed's social group exerts the same pressure to end the relationship. Much of it has to do with identifying the act as "unforgivable", demanding justice. But the main highlight of the research was how the group perceived the response to a betrayed partner, under the assumption that the infidel apologized. The group has "shared values" (Smith, et. al, 2014), meaning that there is a supposed mutual understanding as to how to respond to the experience of infidelity. Also, it is assumed that forgiveness is a weak act that damages the status of the one employing it (in this context) and thus the group, as well. I would hypothesize that similar dynamics are at play in family circles as that that Smith, et. al (2014) found. 

We have our social circles and there is a general price for admission. In no way do I mean that this is always a bad thing. Smith, et. al (2014) also found that it individuals were advised against forgiving too early, making it one of the ultimate forms of weakness identified. Regardless of the source or background of the advice, every model for recovering from infidelity urges couples to not forgive prematurely. Sometimes the betrayed partner needs a push in the right direction and is unable to do so on their own. Given that Smith, et. al (2014) and Abrahamson, et. al (2012) identified conditional support, it could be ascertained that the support groups for the betrayed individuals do exert statistically significant sway. However, the extent to which an individual or group determines the outcome needs to be qualified by specific research. 

References:

Abrahamson, I., et. al, 2012. What Helps Couples Rebuild Their Relationship After Infidelity? Journal of Family Issues

Sharpe, D., et. al, 2013. Effect of Cheating Experience on Attitudes toward Infidelity. Sexuality & Culture

Smith, H., et. al, 2014. The cost of forgiveness: Observers prefer victims who leave unfaithful romantic partners. European Journal of Social Psychology


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Individuals should take this advice because it is expert advice. If I never existed, the advice that I have presented in this thread would still be there. Those same psychologists would still have written those same words. The research would still have been cited in relationship books and books on infidelity, as well as in training materials for practicing clinicians. I have provided citations for every paraphrase and quote I have made. It is all verifiable.



You're still likely come in contact with a lot of confirmation bias both in the information you glean as relevant and important as well as the published researchers and their peers that supposedly reviewed these "scientific" journals.

1. Way earlier in the thread you quoted a supposed "expert" with a Ph.D. from an unaccredited online uneducation institution who for years was the president and publisher of some national swingers club and surprise, his research made positive statements about couples that swing;

2. This is a very soft science and measuring "success" is very difficult = what is success in this type of counseling let alone research?

3. Marriage counselors are notoriously are high risk of divorce, infidelity and marital disatisfaction;

4. Wayward marriage counselors are some of the worst researchers in this field ~~ if they'll cheat on their spouse, why would we expect their "soft science" research to not be fudged a bit here and there too?;

5. Gottman is mostly considered a leading expert in his field because that's the way he presents himself ~ I believe he worked with Hendrix was it, developing imago therapy for years only to run a study basically "proving" {as much as anything can be proved in this field} that imago therapy was no better than doing absolutely nothing {I liked this conclusion ~ no more listening sticks and teaching active listening conflict resolution ad naus} ~ Gottman also spent years trying to develope a way to ascertain whether a couple would divorce or not by observing them having an argument and after decades trying, he failed as did the guy 
that owns Eharmony.com as well as the esteemed David Olson of University of Minnesota, Owner of Prepare and Enrich. Gottman left his wife for a lab assistant I believe and Karen Olson is David Olson's 4th or 5th wife. These guys are failed wayward researchers that couldn't "save" a marriage if their life depended on it because they see little wrong with infidelity ~~ since they are lifelong adulterers who've abandoned spouses and bore children that don't even speak to them.

6. Despite Gottman "proving" and publishing peer reviewed research claiming it sucks, Hendrix still claims expertise and sells his imago therapy as a "highly effective" marriage and relationship counseling technique ~ then again, Gottman is a wayward and maybe Hendrix offended him somehow so he set about debunking Hendrix for sport??? 

So whatever "immense research" you are doing better include researching every author's marital and behavioral history {to the extent you can} to determine their confirmation bias and, really, reliability. The amount of infidelity among these "researchers" is astounding.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks for looking into that, RT. 

It is interesting that while Anton's dad was understandably triggered by his son's non-exclusivity, he was able to separate his personal emotions from the situation enough to recognize that his daughter-in-law had not been emotionally supportive of his son, and may have contributed to his vulnerability. (His own conscience may have wrestled with that, too.) I think that is the kind of reality check that friends and family can offer, if it can be heard.

Again, thank you for the effort you are putting into this thread. I am sure it seems thankless sometimes. But some of us truly do appreciate the research perspective.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Quality said:


> You're still likely come in contact with a lot of confirmation bias both in the information you glean as relevant and important as well as the published researchers and their peers that supposedly reviewed these "scientific" journals.


Supposedly?

"Scientific"?

It is commonly purported that only 10 percent of submissions to these journals actually get published. It is a rigorous process and it speaks volumes if the work is valuable enough to do so.


Sure, there is bias. The hallmark of science is that it is a process that roots it out.



> 1. Way earlier in the thread you quoted a supposed "expert" with a Ph.D. from an unaccredited online uneducation institution who for years was the president and publisher of some national swingers club and surprise, his research made positive statements about couples that swing;


I mentioned a statistic that was from his book. You are not telling the truth. In no way did I puff up his credentials. The statistic presented ONLY had to do with the number of marriages that incorporate swinging. It is a figure that is of little use to this thread but I included it because it was interesting. 



> 2. This is a very soft science and measuring "success" is very difficult = what is success in this type of counseling let alone research?


Success = it works. They test their hypothesized model for treating infidelity and it becomes established when it is proven to work. In general, we are looking at quality of life and relationship indications over years. I don't choose what happens to work.


> 3. Marriage counselors are notoriously are high risk of divorce, infidelity and marital disatisfaction;


That is an ad hominem argument. The last time I looked, their divorce rates were right with the rest of us. As far as infidelity....you'd have to show me what your source is. If you want to throw out what they do, then I'd ask what you intend to replace it with. I have plenty of criticism for many individual factors, but we overcome that by looking at as much research as possible.



> 4. Wayward marriage counselors are some of the worst researchers in this field ~~ if they'll cheat on their spouse, why would we expect their "soft science" research to not be fudged a bit here and there too?;


I won't comment on them cheating.

Fudging research? I am sure some do, but it won't do any good. Research has to pass the smell test, it has to survive peer scrutiny, and then it has to be reproduced by multiple other research teams. We will always steam roll over the bad science. 


> 5. Gottman is mostly considered a leading expert in his field because that's the way he presents himself ~ I believe he worked with Hendrix was it, developing imago therapy for years only to run a study basically "proving" {as much as anything can be proved in this field} that imago therapy was no better than doing absolutely nothing {I liked this conclusion ~ no more listening sticks and teaching active listening conflict resolution ad naus} ~ Gottman also spent years trying to develope a way to ascertain whether a couple would divorce or not by observing them having an argument and after decades trying, he failed


Everyone cites Gottman, meaning that the field of experts finds his work reputable. As far as his predictions, he has multiple models that predict whether a couple will divorce at rates exceeding 80 percent.

No comment on Imago therapy.



> as did the guy
> that owns Eharmony.com as well as the esteemed David Olson of University of Minnesota, Owner of Prepare and Enrich. Gottman left his wife for a lab assistant I believe and Karen Olson is David Olson's 4th or 5th wife. These guys are failed wayward researchers that couldn't "save" a marriage if their life depended on it because they see little wrong with infidelity ~~ since they are lifelong adulterers who've abandoned spouses and bore children that don't even speak to them.


No comment. 


> 6. Despite Gottman "proving" and publishing peer reviewed research claiming it sucks, Hendrix still claims expertise and sells his imago therapy as a "highly effective" marriage and relationship counseling technique ~ then again, Gottman is a wayward and maybe Hendrix offended him somehow so he set about debunking Hendrix for sport???


No comment.


> So whatever "immense research" you are doing better include researching every author's marital and behavioral history {to the extent you can} to determine their confirmation bias and, really, reliability. The amount of infidelity among these "researchers" is astounding.


I will not. This is a serious endeavor that I intend to submit to a journal for publishment. The goal is to answer a question that is not sufficiently given in the existing body.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Relationship Teacher said:


> I mentioned a statistic that was from his book. You are not telling the truth. In no way did I puff up his credentials. The statistic presented ONLY had to do with the number of marriages that incorporate swinging. It is a figure that is of little use to this thread but I included it because it was interesting.


I was not trying to indicate you "puffed up" his credentials or that using anything of his blew your whole thread to smithereens. My point is you just that you referenced him without any regard or discernment about the supposed "expert" you were presenting a statistic from.

If you want your paper to be considered seriously by a panel of experts, you might not want to quote anything from some well-known pseudo-expert. 



Relationship Teacher said:


> Success = it works. They test their hypothesized model for treating infidelity and it becomes established when it is proven to work. In general, we are looking at quality of life and relationship indications over years. I don't choose what happens to work.


I happen to think besides the obvious happily reconciled couples, "success", in the area of infidelity advice, includes a betrayed spouse "successfully" divorcing their unrepentant wayward spouse and moving on in a contented manner to healthier relationships.

I also know couples that might be called a "success" just because they stayed married but they remain miserable together after having rug swept the affair. 

I know there are marital satisfaction evaluation tests out there, but measuring "success" is still a very subjective determination.




Relationship Teacher said:


> That is an ad hominem argument. The last time I looked, their divorce rates were right with the rest of us. As far as infidelity....you'd have to show me what your source is. If you want to throw out what they do, then I'd ask what you intend to replace it with. I have plenty of criticism for many individual factors, but we overcome that by looking at as much research as possible.


I just went and grabbed the first thing I could find off google. I'm sure you can find a journal or two with better information but it's been a pretty well known fact in the business that counselors, overall, have higher resiliency rates and higher divorce rates. Infidelity rates I just presume based upon what I know and have seen/heard but it makes sense considering their higher resilience scores. Doesn't mean they are all wayward horrible people that don't know anything about marriage and relationships. Just means consumer beware and ask questions. 

Researchers McCoy and Aamodt compiled the divorce rates for 449 occupations in the United States. They stated 16.96% reported that they “had been in a marital relationship, but were no longer with their spouse [separated or divorced]” (p. 3). This number is the average of each occupation’s average, which may account for the low number. The current employment status of the sample was not given.​There was not a specific occupation listed as Marriage and Family Therapist in the same study, however, there were multiple occupations in which a Marriage and Family Therapist may fall. McCoy and Aamodt listed the occupation “Therapists, all other” as having a divorce/separation rate of 24.20%, “Sociologists” as 23.53%, “Social workers” as 23.16%, “Counselors” as 22.49%, “Miscellaneous social scientists and workers” as 19.65%, and “Psychologists” as 19.30%. Each one of these categories had a divorce/separation rate well above the national average for all occupations of 16.96%.​Granted, 22-24% is not nearly as high as the rate for Bartenders and Massage Therapists (38%) but it's significantly higher than, say, clergy or optometrists coming in at 4%.​*McCoy, S. P., & Aamodt, M. G. (2010). A comparison of law enforcement divorce rates with those of other occupations. Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, 25, 1-16.​
What would my alternative be? Research and find a good MARRIED marriage counselor that's, preferably, never been a wayward spouse. I think wayward counselors shouldn't be allowed to present themselves as legitimate marital counselors but the alternative to that is more likely that they should be required to disclose, upfront, their marital history. Clients should certainly ASK ~ but many don't and wayward therapists will lie anyway. Unfortunately, I believe the best way to recover is becoming your own expert TOGETHER and reading/researching/applying the literature on your own instead of relying on weekly trips to some counselor to "fix" it. Even a good counselor is merely a tool and a part of an overall plan, not the cure by him or herself. 




> Fudging research? I am sure some do, but it won't do any good. Research has to pass the smell test, it has to survive peer scrutiny, and then it has to be reproduced by multiple other research teams. We will always steam roll over the bad science. Everyone cites Gottman, meaning that the field of experts finds his work reputable. As far as his predictions, he has multiple models that predict whether a couple will divorce at rates exceeding 80 percent.


I was mistaken, Gottman's on his third wife. He's just your run of the mill wayward admiration junkie.

His models are bogus. The four horsemen are simply symptoms, not the cause of divorce in much the same way hair loss is a symptom of cancer, but you can't cure cancer with Rogaine. Correlation {especially correlation determined in hindsight by a wayward researcher} is NOT causality. Gottman has never actually tested his models on new populations of couples nor predicted a single divorce.

A dissection of John Gottman's love lab.



> I will not. This is a serious endeavor that I intend to submit to a journal for publishment. The goal is to answer a question that is not sufficiently given in the existing body.


What's the question again? I might be able to either give you the answer or direct you to the some good sources.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Quality said:


> I was not trying to indicate you "puffed up" his credentials or that using anything of his blew your whole thread to smithereens. My point is you just that you referenced him without any regard or discernment about the supposed "expert" you were presenting a statistic from.
> 
> If you want your paper to be considered seriously by a panel of experts, you might not want to quote anything from some well-known pseudo-expert.


My research will only include journal publications, so there is no possibility of using phonies.


> I happen to think besides the obvious happily reconciled couples, "success", in the area of infidelity advice, includes a betrayed spouse "successfully" divorcing their unrepentant wayward spouse and moving on in a contented manner to healthier relationships.
> 
> I also know couples that might be called a "success" just because they stayed married but they remain miserable together after having rug swept the affair.
> 
> I know there are marital satisfaction evaluation tests out there, but measuring "success" is still a very subjective determination.


I don't "disagree". My research is going to end up touching on the subject of post-affair reconciliation, but I am not sure it will fully qualify that concern of yours. However, a major requirement for my research is to qualify what differentiates "unhappy", "pretty happy" and "very happy". I am not satisfied with much of the research's assumptions about this. My problem is that there is the assumption that "pretty happy" or "very happy" means that nothing is wrong (generally). A relatively happy male could be completely lacking any semblance of a sex life with his wife, which is all that is needed for him to drop his pants with Susie from accounting.


> I just went and grabbed the first thing I could find off google. I'm sure you can find a journal or two with better information but it's been a pretty well known fact in the business that counselors, overall, have higher resiliency rates and higher divorce rates. Infidelity rates I just presume based upon what I know and have seen/heard but it makes sense considering their higher resilience scores. Doesn't mean they are all wayward horrible people that don't know anything about marriage and relationships. Just means consumer beware and ask questions.


I want nothing more than for individuals to take everything with a grain of salt. A counselor or therapist still has personal flaws, failures to think critically, and lacks of understanding about issues. So, analogously, we try to find a good mechanic, even though the 10 we are looking at are all ASE certified. I recommend evaluating them against what they are supposed to be and do. It can be hard to discern between good and bad, especially for the average guy/gal, but I do have excellent resources that can help someone make this process easier if they need them. For instance, if John is trying to reconcile with Jane, he might ask me for the aforementioned resource, which is just a 15-30 page publication on the process of therapeutic treatment for couples in regards to infidelity. Because not all are trained in infidelity, they don't all follow a model for treatment of infidelity. My advice is to find someone that uses an established model. 




> Researchers McCoy and Aamodt compiled the divorce rates for 449 occupations in the United States. They stated 16.96% reported that they “had been in a marital relationship, but were no longer with their spouse [separated or divorced]” (p. 3). This number is the average of each occupation’s average, which may account for the low number. The current employment status of the sample was not given.​There was not a specific occupation listed as Marriage and Family Therapist in the same study, however, there were multiple occupations in which a Marriage and Family Therapist may fall. McCoy and Aamodt listed the occupation “Therapists, all other” as having a divorce/separation rate of 24.20%, “Sociologists” as 23.53%, “Social workers” as 23.16%, “Counselors” as 22.49%, “Miscellaneous social scientists and workers” as 19.65%, and “Psychologists” as 19.30%. Each one of these categories had a divorce/separation rate well above the national average for all occupations of 16.96%.​Granted, 22-24% is not nearly as high as the rate for Bartenders and Massage Therapists (38%) but it's significantly higher than, say, clergy or optometrists coming in at 4%.​*McCoy, S. P., & Aamodt, M. G. (2010). A comparison of law enforcement divorce rates with those of other occupations. Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, 25, 1-16.​


That is about what I recall.



> What would my alternative be? Research and find a good MARRIED marriage counselor that's, preferably, never been a wayward spouse. I think wayward counselors shouldn't be allowed to present themselves as legitimate marital counselors but the alternative to that is more likely that they should be required to disclose, upfront, their marital history. Clients should certainly ASK ~ but many don't and wayward therapists will lie anyway. Unfortunately, I believe the best way to recover is becoming your own expert TOGETHER and reading/researching/applying the literature on your own instead of relying on weekly trips to some counselor to "fix" it. Even a good counselor is merely a tool and a part of an overall plan, not the cure by him or herself.


That is sound advice.


> I was mistaken, Gottman's on his third wife. He's just your run of the mill wayward admiration junkie.
> 
> His models are bogus. The four horsemen are simply symptoms, not the cause of divorce in much the same way hair loss is a symptom of cancer, but you can't cure cancer with Rogaine. Correlation {especially correlation determined in hindsight by a wayward researcher} is NOT causality. Gottman has never actually tested his models on new populations of couples nor predicted a single divorce.
> 
> A dissection of John Gottman's love lab.


I would not word it that way if I were explaining it. In general, he gathered data and found patterns in the data. Is it correlation or causation? Well, that doesn't mean it is useless, even if he only found correlations. The "real" causation could be incompatibility that drives the four horsemen. Even so, I would argue that the predictive capacity is there and the existence of the horsemen still means something significant.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> ven so, I would argue that the predictive capacity is there and the existence of the horsemen still means something significant.


Could you elaborate on this, please?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on this, please?


Sure.

This kind of dispute is well explained within the realm of Economic thinking. I thought about it more since @Quality posted, so this will be of value to those interested.

The dispute, it seems, is over what we say "causes" divorce. Quality astutely points out that Gottman's grand models make predictions based upon the existence of certain relational factors. 

In The 7 Principles for Making Marriages Work, Gottman (2014, CH.3) lists and explains the "signs" that lead him to predict a couple's trajectory:

1. Harsh Start-up
2. The Four Horsemen (Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling)
3. Flooding
4. Body Language
5. Failed repair attempts
6. Bad memories

@Quality points out that the existence of these does not necessarily imply that these are the cause. This might be similar to the widely disputed "bad relationships = infidelity" claim. What if, instead, 'A' (the 6 aforementioned signs) and 'B' (Divorce) are not causally related, but instead are both affected by 'C' (Incompatibility, Personalities, fill-in-the-blank). In this light, an astute researcher could still come to the correct conclusion 91% of the time about the divorce trajectory.

Is that enough?

Is there, instead, a caveat to be made?

The answer depends on what the couple intends to do with the information. Let's assume that 'Jim' and 'Susie' read Gottman's book and said, "all 6 signs exist every single day with us." If we assume that 'A' (6 signs) and 'B' (divorce) are causally related, then the couple could falsely assume that all they have to do is *eliminate* the 6 signs and all will be well. This would be how correlation and causation can be confounded and the result would be misapplied effort.

My argument would be that Jim and Susie are missing the point and ignoring how they should interact with another. Avoiding negative expressions to one's partner is an entirely different skill than active listening, empathizing, we-ness, romance and committed behavior. In fact, Jim and Susie could be too focused avoiding the negatives, being hyper-vigilant to their presence. This might be symbolized by making too many complaints.

My advice would be that if the 6 signs symbolize one's relationship, then the next step would be to learn positive placeholders. If they just eliminate some or all of the 6 signs, then there is still a vacuum left. It is more efficacious to replace the maladaptive behaviors with ...... adaptive and healthy ones. So let's call the predictive model a fire alarm, not necessarily the fire.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Relationship Teacher in Black
Quality in Red



This kind of dispute is well explained within the realm of Economic thinking. I thought about it more since @Quality posted, so this will be of value to those interested.

The dispute, it seems, is over what we say "causes" divorce. Quality astutely points out that Gottman's grand models make predictions based upon the existence of certain relational factors. 

In case anyone missed reading the article I linked in my last post, but Gottman's "grand models" never actually MADE predictions based upon the existence of certain "signs" and relational factors {and subjective body language} RATHER, Gottman, in hindsight, created models by P-Hacking the data, that WOULD HAVE, with somewhere around 90% percent accuracy, predicted which of the exact 57 couples he videotaped and analyzed 6 years prior, would divorce. 

In The 7 Principles for Making Marriages Work, Gottman (2014, CH.3) lists and explains the "signs" that lead him to predict a couple's trajectory:

1. Harsh Start-up
2. The Four Horsemen (Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling)
3. Flooding
4. Body Language
5. Failed repair attempts
6. Bad memories

@Quality points out that the existence of these does not necessarily imply that these are the cause. This might be similar to the widely disputed "bad relationships = infidelity" claim. What if, instead, 'A' (the 6 aforementioned signs) and 'B' (Divorce) are not causally related, but instead are both affected by 'C' (Incompatibility, Personalities, fill-in-the-blank). In this light, an astute researcher could still come to the correct conclusion 91% of the time about the divorce trajectory.

Again, no researcher or statistician has verifiably come anywhere close to predicting the future divorces of individual couples within a significant homogenous population of couples anywhere near 90% accuracy. I don't even think 50% accuracy has been achieved or is achievable. Any study of what HAS happened to marriages/divorces, just doesn't apply to what will happen in the future to future marriages. Other than maybe being within one standard deviation of one another in intelligence, I don't think compatibility has all that much to do with the illusory factor 'C', personality probably has implications as does their religious beliefs, practices and|or values. Culture and generational differences along with world events, war, recessions, depressions have a big impact. Porn usage past|present will become an even larger factor correlating to divorce and, perhaps to a lesser extent, the amount of online gaming and other online escapism. Resiliency scores can have an impact as well as race, ethnicity, education, age and income/income potential in the population sense ~ not compatability sense. The list goes on and on and while it's fairly easy to say "contempt" leads to divorce ~~ eventually, you and I deal with couples all the time that START OUT with contempt for one another and find themselves fighting back, learning and adapting new skills and practices and loving one another again, in time. Marriage is, after all, a commitment to love another "in good times, and bad ~ sickness and health" and most every mature happy couple I know can report a season of "criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling" in their marriage, thus, since any "method of prediction" can only be applied to and assessed in a moment or short period of time of measurement, it will always miss it's mark when it just happens to be a rather "good" season for a couple that ultimately divorces or a "bad" season for a couple that sticks it out and later thrives. 



Is that enough?

Is there, instead, a caveat to be made? 

Yes, perhaps add: "BUT, THERE IS HOPE ~~ the past doesn't have to be your future. 

The answer depends on what the couple intends to do with the information. Let's assume that 'Jim' and 'Susie' read Gottman's book and said, "all 6 signs exist every single day with us." If we assume that 'A' (6 signs) and 'B' (divorce) are causally related, then the couple could falsely assume that all they have to do is *eliminate* the 6 signs and all will be well. This would be how correlation and causation can be confounded and the result would be misapplied effort.

My argument would be that Jim and Susie are missing the point and ignoring how they should interact with another. Avoiding negative expressions to one's partner is an entirely different skill than active listening, empathizing, we-ness, romance and committed behavior. In fact, Jim and Susie could be too focused avoiding the negatives, being hyper-vigilant to their presence. This might be symbolized by making too many complaints.

My argument would be what the heck is a couple trying to work on their marriage doing reading a book about predicting divorces. They are presumably unhappy in their marriage {no other reason to read a monotonous Gottman book}, so they are certainly likely to identify examples of all of Gottman's "signs" and feel hopeless. I've only read portions of the book myself, but from what I've seen it's more about Gottman glorifying and justifying his models than actually helping a couple overcome such labels. He does train counselors to help couples with affairs, but I find his notions that we should leave our judgment of such abhorrent behavior at the door a bit disingenuous considering his background as an adulterer himself. 

My advice would be that if the 6 signs symbolize one's relationship, then the next step would be to learn positive placeholders. If they just eliminate some or all of the 6 signs, then there is still a vacuum left. It is more efficacious to replace the maladaptive behaviors with ...... adaptive and healthy ones. So let's call the predictive model a fire alarm, not necessarily the fire.

Sounds a little like the Dr. Harley's lovebank/lovebusters behavior modification therapy model???  THE LOVE BANK


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

@Quality,

There are other researchers that make predictions about the future path of a couple. One study did so by evaluating "how" the couple dated. For the life of me I cannot recall the authors or title. In regards to Gottman's self-gratifying book...... it goes on and on and on about "what to do". Because marital happiness is a main feature of the research I am performing, I, invariably, must evaluate Gottman's other research, namely in his analyses of what constitutes "stable" and "happy" couples. He identified one "stable" type of marriage that was inclusive, seemingly needing, of a bit of volatility.

My second point is that I totally sympathize with the notion that one could read Gottman's book and feel hopeless. In fact, it is one of the biggest challenges that I, personally, face. I have no choice but to digest a massive amount of literature to expand my understanding and context. I always come across information that forces me to re-evaluate the past and present in a new light. Sometimes it hurts a great deal. I tend to think that many distressed spouses will read the aforementioned book and (via pareidolia) conclude that their relationship is in a lot worse shape than they had previously thought.



quality said:


> Sounds a little like the Dr. Harley's lovebank/lovebusters behavior modification therapy model??? THE LOVE BANK


Teaching couples new (more healthy) ways to interact is a staple across many therapeutic models. I can't comment too much on Dr. Harley. I disagree with a lot of his approach, especially as it relates to infidelity.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
Introduction
Why They Cheat 1
Statistics
Why They Cheat 2
Why They Cheat 3
Forgiveness
Address a Disclosed Affair - Diblasio's Infidelity Intervention Model
What The Heck Were They Thinking
My Story 1
My Story 2
Teaching Fidelity
Teaching Fidelity 2
Teaching Fidelity 3
Interactive "What is Infidelity" Lesson
Interactive "Affair-Proofing" Lesson
What is Infidelity
Recovery Process: Social Factors

This post will begin to cover Gottman's 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work and Not "Just Friends". The former will be easy to address because it briefly touches on the subject. The latter is better thought of as an infidelity bible, covering everything conceivable, really. 




Gottman said:


> Some people leave a marriage literally, by divorcing. Others do so by staying together but leading parallel lives. Whatever the route, there are four final stages that signal the death knell of a relationship.
> 
> 1. The couple see their marital problems as severe.
> 2. Talking things over seems useless. Partners try to solve problems on their own.
> ...


Again, we see the notion that infidelity is "symptomatic" of a lacking relationship. This notion is challenged by some researchers and clinicians, sometimes calling it naive. Invariably, my position has to stand with the consensus of all of the evidence. Is it really naive? Yes and no. The reason why depends upon how the "it's symptomatic" notion was concluded by the individual researcher. Some make that argument based upon the unfaithful partner's post-hoc reasoning. Some data suggest that unhappy relationships are extremely predictive of unfaithful behavior. The caution I urge is that much more data has to be collectively analyzed before that becomes a confirmed conclusion. The author of the second book to be covered has a somewhat dissenting argument than that of Gottman's. 

I did not own Dr. Shirley Glass' book until recently, but I am very familiar with her and Dr. Wright's research. They are heavyweights in the field of infidelity research, mainly, due to their 1985 and 1992 publications. So as not to do a disservice to the book and their research, in general, it is probably best that I unpack it in at least two posts. So, let's continue with at least the following:

1. "Good people in good marriages are having affairs.(Glass, p.1, 2003)

This is literally the first sentence in the book and we need to look at Dr. Glass' explanation.

2. What do we do about #1.

3. An exploration into Dr. Glass' research.


to be continued


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Gottman said:


> When a couple get to the last stage, one or both partners may have an affair. But this betrayal is usually a symptom of a dying marriage, not the cause.


As you perform this meta-analysis, you might begin to see why it's important to know the marital and infidelity history of the researcher. This "conclusion" Gottman makes is completely self-rationalization and self-justifying his two divorces. His betrayal was just a symptom of an already dead marriage and his infidelity was a predictable and natural result of that {supposed} fact. It couldn't be that the fourth most highly rated family and marital therapist of the last century failed fixing his two previous marriages. They were simply unfixable {especially how intolerant such wives were of him constantly flirting and likely having sex relationships with his female graduate assistants in their "Love Lab"}.




Gottman said:


> The end of that marriage could have been predicted long before either spouse strayed.


Still, nearly impossible to predict absent making the prediction AFTER one of the spouses hires an attorney. Hopefully you've helped enough couples yourself to know that it's entirely impossible to write off a couple seeking your help, even though you are so sure it's utterly pointless in that situation, only to see the couple turn it around thereafter. Conversely, couples I see as relatively easy fixes end up eventually divorced. 





Gottman said:


> Too often, couples begin to seek help for their marriage after they've already hit troubled waters. The warning signs were almost always there early on if they had known what to look for. You can see the seeds of trouble in (1) what partners actually say to each other (the prevalence of harsh start-up, the four horsemen, and the unwillingness to accept influence, (2) the failure of their repair attempts, (3) physiological reactions (flooding), or (4) pervasive negative thoughts about their marriage. Any of these signs suggests that, unless there is change in how the couple interact, emotional separation and, in most cases, divorce may only be a matter of time.


Again, almost every long term "successful" loving couple goes through a season or two of this. Some went about fixing it and others just stuck it out {marriage ethic} and didn't blow it up {cheating}. Every conflict doesn't have to be solved and most people in the real world don't want to endure marital therapy consisting of rehashing every historical dispute the couple ever had while practicing their active listening skills. Especially men {for the most part}. I'm so fortunate my wife is in total agreement with me on this and we can just have our own little party off on our own as we sit through some conference somewhere with yet another well-meaning counselor trying to get us all to comprehend and adopt the newest conflict resolution technique. To us {and we believe, the population of couples at large} all those mirroring, validation and active listening techniques are unscriptural garbage. The biggest reason I don't like them ~~ they feminize and subjugate men, making them LESS attractive to their spouse. Woman want to be cherished and have a husband they can trust with their respect who will lead their family. Hard to love a guy that has to beg his wife for his turn with the listening stick. {sorry, kind of off on a rant here ~ not saying you advocated such}.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Catch up on the UAP
Introduction
Why They Cheat 1
Statistics
Why They Cheat 2
Why They Cheat 3
Forgiveness
Address a Disclosed Affair - Diblasio's Infidelity Intervention Model
What The Heck Were They Thinking
My Story 1
My Story 2
Teaching Fidelity
Teaching Fidelity 2
Teaching Fidelity 3
Interactive "What is Infidelity" Lesson
Interactive "Affair-Proofing" Lesson
What is Infidelity
Recovery Process: Social Factors
Gottman & Glass

First, an apology for the delay in getting to this next post. I was busy with clients and also unsure as to how to narrate this post in a way that added unique value to this thread.

Glass' Boundaries

What I wanted to focus on was the idea of good people in good marriages still being susceptible to affairs. What is "good" is a critical element to my research and it conflicts with Dr. Glass somewhat. To me, "good" allows for plenty of lacking elements, which we will illustrate with Dr. Glass' analogies.

Do good people have affairs? Do bad people not have affairs? What is the glue that keeps partners faithful to one another? What is the solvent that dissolves the glue of fidelity? It would be fair to say that love could be that glue but many individuals could (rightly) point out all of the times that they have seen loving couples cheat on one another. Does that mean that love is not the binding agent that I claim is fair to mention? Perhaps there are various forms and applications of love. Perhaps there is an "applied" love, a friend's love, and the love better characterized as caring.

I mentioned that Dr. Glass used some analogies and one, in particular, got me thinking in a new way. She mentioned that she tells her clients that "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" - when it isn't you having to mow that grass. :wink2: In this sense, a partner is potentially idealizing an individual outside of the relationship while only noticing the flaws and lack in their own. And it isn't enough to have a fence as a barrier if the gate is left unlocked and allows for a predatory male/female to enter with ease.

Fences, boundaries actually, are better illustrated by thinking of them as electric fences. Imagine that you are a farmer. You have valuable livestock and crops on the interior of the fence. Hostile forces exist on the outside of the fence that would enter without mindful regard to the health of those that reside within. So, what do you do when these forces threaten all that you hold to be valuable, you maintain the boundary's presence and see the threat for what it is. At the same time, even though you are being protected from external forces by the boundary, the boundary can hurt you as well. Dr. Glass notes that one of the very real risks is that basic feeling of attraction. Regardless of the quality of the relationship, if the fence has that easily trespassed gate, then it should be expected that there will be philandering in some instances.

She goes on to compare the affair-proofing quality of new love to the deeply dedicated and mature lovers, for they see those external factors as being dangerous to the relationship that they hold so dear. I hope this narrative has adequately spelled out what this means for the common man and woman. Love isn't what you feel. Love isn't "not wanting" something bad to happen to another. Love isn't a fondness. Love is what you do. Love entails recognizing the warning signs of a developing emotional connection with a (for now) friend. Love entails clueing the romantic partner into pertinent details so that they can do their part to enforce the boundaries as well.

So, when you feel that urge that demands you go into the arms of another, remember the barrier. Feeling for another can feel harmless in the beginning but once feelings get involved, the affair seems right because it feels right. Don't wait for that eventuality. See your feelings as the property of the relationship and your partner. Any deviation from the relationship only means to do you harm. Dr. Glass mentions that 75% of affair partners wind up getting divorced. One of my college textbooks indicates that only 4% of affairs end up in a marriage. Put the two together! I am a person that loves science and statistics. I don't like those odds, being that an affair has a 1% chance of succeeding happily ever after. The affair means to do you and your valuable relationship harm. Ask yourself what you would do in the face of those odds and then take the advice every single day.


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