# Wife's past destroying my peace of mind...



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

Hi Everyone,

I am 39 now and feel so helpless in my current marriage as my wife's sexual past is destroying my present but I am trying everything in my power to preserve our future together. I was 19 when I met my met my wife who was 20 at the time. She was definitely a "10" without a doubt. We started dating and I was upfront with her and within a few months into the relationship let her know that I am a virgin & would like the same in my partner. She started crying and told me a story of how she was a virgin and was raped a few months before we met. I hugged her and told her that it wasn't her fault and we continued to build our relationship. Fast forward to Jan. 2014 and we have been happily married for 20 years now with 4 beautiful kids. Life is going perfectly but out of nowhere, someone who knew my wife before we were together provides me with shocking information about her past. At first I don't believe it but then I decide that I need to confront her and she breaks down and tells me that what I was told is all true. My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me. I was heart broken. Everything we had built was on a lie. It's so hard for me to type this because my hands are shaking. I can't even put into details some of the things that she was doing in the past before me. Since I found the truth out, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't stop crying but I keep trying because I am so deep in love with her. She has been the perfect wife & mother for the past 20 years but thoughts of her sexual escapades are haunting me to where I can't keep my focus on anything. I keep imagining her naked with someone else doing all kinds of sexual things in different positions. Another guy pleasuring her, her pleasuring him, oral sex, different places without protection. It disgusts me to find out what she had done before me. It makes me sick to my stomach. If I push myself to eat something then I feel as if I want to throw up. I love her but can't get over this lie. I miss our sex life but can't bring myself to that point. It's almost as if I have to push myself to bring myself to make love to her and it's a constant battle for me to fight off these images of her with another. She tells me that I am the only one that she has ever loved and that her past was just all physical attraction. I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. I am not some disgusting animal. I feel like I am slowly dying inside and have constant thoughts of suicide but I have 4 kids that need me. I'm trying to be strong and look at all of my wife's positives but that 1 negative (her past) is SO strong that it keeps holding me back. Our sex life was nothing less than perfect but now I can't even look her in the eyes. I feel ashamed and I feel SO dirty. I hug her tightly and tell her that I love her but I feel myself slowly slipping away. I am trying to help her cope but I don't know how to help myself. I am so deep in love with her that I can't even walk away from our loving marriage. I feel as if I am *broken beyond repair*. I am hoping that time will heal this scar someday but I know that there are no guarantees in life. I hope that someone can provide me with some advice. I am willing to listen.


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## Hicks

I would recommend you see a therapist.

Alot of very nice people **** others for the hell of it. And not many people think of people who have causaul sex as disgusting animals.

I"m not trying to jump all over you... but I think you need a professional sounding board to sort through why you feel the way you do, and whether you life is a) better or b) worse when you allow these feeling to take over.


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## Cletus

I have no experience with, but have heard people discuss cognitive behavioral therapy. It's purported to be a way to recondition the way you think about something. 

Don't know if it really works, but your situation is certainly screaming out for just such an approach if you can't tell yourself to get past it with some success.


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## treyvion

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am 39 now and feel so helpless in my current marriage as my wife's sexual past is destroying my present but I am trying everything in my power to preserve our future together. I was 19 when I met my met my wife who was 20 at the time. She was definitely a "10" without a doubt. We started dating and I was upfront with her and within a few months into the relationship let her know that I am a virgin & would like the same in my partner. She started crying and told me a story of how she was a virgin and was raped a few months before we met. I hugged her and told her that it wasn't her fault and we continued to build our relationship. Fast forward to Jan. 2014 and we have been happily married for 20 years now with 4 beautiful kids. Life is going perfectly but out of nowhere, someone who knew my wife before we were together provides me with shocking information about her past. At first I don't believe it but then I decide that I need to confront her and she breaks down and tells me that what I was told is all true. My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me. I was heart broken. Everything we had built was on a lie. It's so hard for me to type this because my hands are shaking. I can't even put into details some of the things that she was doing in the past before me. Since I found the truth out, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't stop crying but I keep trying because I am so deep in love with her. She has been the perfect wife & mother for the past 20 years but thoughts of her sexual escapades are haunting me to where I can't keep my focus on anything. I keep imagining her naked with someone else doing all kinds of sexual things in different positions. Another guy pleasuring her, her pleasuring him, oral sex, different places without protection. It disgusts me to find out what she had done before me. It makes me sick to my stomach. If I push myself to eat something then I feel as if I want to throw up. I love her but can't get over this lie. I miss our sex life but can't bring myself to that point. It's almost as if I have to push myself to bring myself to make love to her and it's a constant battle for me to fight off these images of her with another. She tells me that I am the only one that she has ever loved and that her past was just all physical attraction. I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. I am not some disgusting animal. I feel like I am slowly dying inside and have constant thoughts of suicide but I have 4 kids that need me. I'm trying to be strong and look at all of my wife's positives but that 1 negative (her past) is SO strong that it keeps holding me back. Our sex life was nothing less than perfect but now I can't even look her in the eyes. I feel ashamed and I feel SO dirty. I hug her tightly and tell her that I love her but I feel myself slowly slipping away. I am trying to help her cope but I don't know how to help myself. I am so deep in love with her that I can't even walk away from our loving marriage. I feel as if I am *broken beyond repair*. I am hoping that time will heal this scar someday but I know that there are no guarantees in life. I hope that someone can provide me with some advice. I am willing to listen.


You know. This is something that happens. It's why I'm a fan about not lying about it. You shouldn't give every specific and detail. But no one out in the world should know more about you than your spouse. It's not right. It allows the others to look at the spouse like he's not "in". They all know the secret and he's just a good old boy who's going to be good and reliable.

Not good.


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## RClawson

BBR,

Have you seen the PM I sent you? Have you considered. Hicks is right. Do not wallow in this because you will be here 2 years from now going in the same circle. And I know this how? Because we are cut from the same thread. 

Your story has been the most therapeutic thing I have ever read on this site. You have allowed me to see how damaging I have been to myself by letting past indiscretions of my wife (before I knew her) consume me. 

I am not making light of your circumstances but I am warning you that you if you continue down the road you are on you will end up more bitter than you are now and quite possibly never fully recover. 

Has your wife asked you to forgive her? What has she done to show you that she is contrite for her mistake? Are you willing to forgive her? To me she sounds like an excellent wife and mother who saw something years ago (you) that would be more fulfilling than what she had experienced before. That is no small thing. I hope you can give it careful consideration.


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## lifeistooshort

Well if you had known this about her back then would you have dumped her? You make a point to mention that she was a 10, so clearly that had an impact on you. .Would you have passed up this 10? .As far as other guys pleasuring her, you give them way too much credit; young women in their teens don't get as much out of sex as you think. A lot of them, particularly the really beautiful ones, have been sent the message their whole life that they're beautiful and that's their value. Even you, you describe her as a 10 but nothing else; not that she was smart, wonderful, or caring. Not that you didn't think those things but clearly her beauty was what stood out, so often women like that will be very sexual because in their minds what else do they offer? But young women usually aren't comfortable in their own skin and don't know what they want, so sex doesn't do a lot until we hit our 30's.
As far as any men before you, none of those idiots are anything compared to you; you've been 
her loving husband for 20 years! Don't give men from 20 years ago so much power; I'm on my second marriage and I had kids with the ex, and a past before him, but as far as I'm concerned nothing mattered before my hb. I bet your wife feels the same way, though I'm a little perplexed as to why she would tell you now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc

I'm sorry, as a person who shares your waiting until marriage beliefs, I can't even begin to imagine how hurt you are. I would reflect on how your marriage has been until now. Is it a good marriage? Maybe she felt you would not marry her and lied, not justifying her. At her age then she was immature and scared, she should have told you then. She robbed you of a choice. If your marriage has been good and she has been a good wife, I'd suggest you get some MC. If not get some individual counseling so you can filter through your feelings before you do anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> My main problem is that I can't get rid of these haunting images of her performing these perverted sexual acts with others.


[From another thread]

Between this and the animals comment, it doesn't sound to me like you have a very healthy view of human sexuality. This looks like an area where you might be able to do some serious work yourself.


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## EnjoliWoman

This is why I have said before to not put virginity on a pedestal. She gave into a NATURAL desire to have sex, and then regretted it when she realized you had a very limited all or nothing mentality.

She LOVES YOU. She did then and she does now. It wasn't right that she lied but if she told you the truth you would have missed out on the best 20 years of your life.

IC/MC is a must as a way to move on. We ARE animals. That does NOT make us filthy. Intimacy wasn't something you wanted with anyone else. Once she met you, it wasn't something SHE wanted with anyone else. 

Shift your view point. You'll never know what you are 'missing'. She KNOWS she isn't missing anything at all.


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## 6301

So what are you going to do? Are you going to scrap your 20 year marriage? Has she ever given you any reason to believe that she's been unfaithful?


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## F-102

How have things been between you two since the "D-day"? How has she been reacting to you?


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## Machiavelli

BBR, you were married under false pretenses. Basically, defrauded. Yours is a common problem. I don't know what your religious beliefs are but this experience is usually only a problem for Christian men. You certainly are justified in seeking divorce under any belief system.


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## Plan 9 from OS

I fell for you because you were married under false pretenses. Easier said than done, but you need to weigh how your wife treated you during the marriage vs her lie to get you to the altar. Also, was it a great marriage overall or was it all a facade that you built for yourself? I ask because in another thread you have a couple of red flags about possible cheating. 

Is part of your pain related to things your wife did for past lovers that she refused to do for you? This has happened to men before where a woman has wild sex with "bad boys", settles down and acts like a wholesome wife who provides her nice husband with "wholesome" sex.


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## kitty2013

Your wife loves you. She lied to you so that she could continue to be with you. All is fair in love and war. You can divorce your wife and find a virgin to marry, but I can assure you that it is not easy to find a woman that makes you feel "happily married" for 20 years.


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## nuclearnightmare

real love requires intimacy. Intimacy requires honesty. Let's get real on just how wonderful a wife she is. She told him a huge lie and couldn't even bring herself to clear things up after 20 years with him. He shouldn't just walk away but my vote is that she is the one that needs therapy.


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## nuclearnightmare

Hicks said:


> I would recommend you see a therapist.
> 
> Alot of very nice people **** others for the hell of it. And not many people think of people who have causaul sex as disgusting animals.
> 
> I"m not trying to jump all over you... but I think you need a professional sounding board to sort through why you feel the way you do, and whether you life is a) better or b) worse when you allow these feeling to take over.


The OP seems to be in significant pain. I don't think he is trying to insult those that do not share his personal views on sex 

I on the other hand am not dealing with such a personal crisis right now. So when I tell you that I cannot recall ever meeting any (what I thought were) nice people who "****** others just for the he'll of it" you know that I am indeed challenging you, and your definition of "nice."


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## 2ntnuf

Don't throw it all away. Go talk to a therapist and see what they can do to help you figure out if you are making a bigger deal than need be. Also, the therapist can help you to get to a place where you can figure out what you really want and what's most important in your life.

It's wrong for her to have lied like that. She did cheat you out of an honest decision. We don't throw the baby out with the bath water. So, it's important, after all these years to know what you really want and what is best for you. 

Please see someone before you make a terrible mistake. Don't harm what you have any further than it has been. I do understand what it feels like to have someone else tell you about your wife. I didn't get great detail, but it hurt our marriage, all the same. Get help before you ruin what might be the best thing that ever happened to you.


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## RClawson

nuclearnightmare said:


> real love requires intimacy. Intimacy requires honesty. Let's get real on just how wonderful a wife she is. She told him a huge lie and couldn't even bring herself to clear things up after 20 years with him. He shouldn't just walk away but my vote is that she is the one that needs therapy.


No they both need therapy.


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## tryingtobebetter

BBR

Thank you for starting your own thread.

I wonder if the following may help you.

We all of us carry within us an 'emotional' and an 'intellectual' part of our brain. Many men, within their emotional part, carry a jealous streak with regards to 'our woman' having sex with other men. In evolutionary terms this makes sense because we do not want to put effort into raising other men's children at the expense of our own genealogical children. This applies to the present so that we get upset if we think our wives may be cheating or thinking of doing so or other men are angling to bring that about.

It also has a retrospective element because of course when we first meet our wives it is always possible she might be carrying some other man's child and we would not want to raise that as ours (I know this does not always work this way in real life as many men can be good stepfathers/adoptive fathers but I think that basic instinct still lurks). The only 100% protection against this is if she has not (recently) had sex with another man. This, I think, gives many of us a tendency to prefer to have a woman without previous sexual experience (other things being equal).

Now of course this is not rational as there is only a risk of raising some other man's child if the sex with another took place in recent months. But the emotional part of the brain is not rational.

What I think the recent discovery of your wife's past has done in part to you is to trigger all sorts of insecurities that are rooted in this part of your brain.

Part of the problem I think you are facing is that the emotional part of your brain is very upset, for all sorts of reasons. The question you face is whether your future happiness (and that includes the happiness of your family) will be best served by 'sticking out' your present unhappiness or walking away. Whatever you decide, I firmly believe the pain you are currently feeling will reduce in time.

I do not know you or your family, so am advising on the basis of only partial knowledge but I think most on this site will advise you to take time and allow the rational part of your brain time to sort through this in 'conversation' with the emotional side. I think it will probably tell you that your long term happiness will be best served by staying together.

One think I will dare predict, is that, if you do, and have told your wife about the pain you have gone through, but stick with her, she will probably love you more than ever before.

I hope this helps. I am not sure I have worded it as well as I could have, but need to go off to advise my daughter on something!

Best wishes


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## syhoybenden

Married under false pretenses. 
She was never the girl she pretended to be. 
Can you live with that? 
Could you ever have fallen in love with her knowing what you now know?
I know I'd have a problem with it.
Maybe you need some distance and time apart to find out how you really feel.


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## LongWalk

Fortunately, you have 20 years of living with your wife to judge her character. Is she a good person? Reliable? Kind and generous to you? Is she a passable or better than average mother?

She is not the same person today that she was back then.

What is disturbing is the rape lie. Why did she feel compelled to make that up?

Who told you this information?

Could they have an ulterior motive?

Have you considered bringing this up with your wife? What do you think will happen if you do?

Have you ever talked about sex?

Do you have a good sex life?

She is a 10. That is part of the explanation for her sexual experience. She was pursued hard and could not resist. However, once she had matured she chose to be monogamous with you. Did she make a bad choice?


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## john117

Perhaps the OP would like to trade positions for a wife that had zero sexual experience before meeting me, one that gave 25 good years and two daughters, and all of a sudden developed a serious personality disorder. 

Of course had we gone deeper into her family's medical history while dating the risks would have been obvious to any psychology undergrad student (like me :lol but any strange events the few times I met her parents were brushed off to culture (both of us are foreign born students when we met)

So, OP, there's misrepresentation and then there's misrepresentation... Trust aside there's no permanent things that need fixing. Seek counseling and talk to her about it all and you will get thru this.


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## SimplyAmorous

EnjoliWoman said:


> This is why I have said before to not put virginity on a pedestal. She gave into a NATURAL desire to have sex, and then regretted it when she realized you had a very limited all or nothing mentality.


 I am sure this right here is what kicks him in the gut again & again..... that what he felt was sacred just between the 2 of them...what sex represented to her (saving herself for 1 man, her husband, someone worthy of her ALL)....ya see... this was not important to her...as it was TO HIM ... your words speak volumes here...*AND THEN SHE REGRETTED IT.*... 

Really...she may not regret it at all [email protected]# and secretly thinks he is being ridiculous (as many posters here feel).....but ya see...THIS WAS IMPORTANT TO HIM....and It pains me when others belittle this so often... this is why He spoke up as he did while dating.. he cared a great deal.. he DID nothing wrong.......

The sad thing is in these "learning after the fact stories"......there is no way to know - if she is just pandering to him NOW...speaking what he wants to hear...that she'd do anything to take it back, why was she so stupid... bla bla bla.... (but maybe she doesn't feel that way at all & just thinks he is too up tight- trying to save herself again)....it's the reality HE must face... Learning to trust again in someone's words is an uphill mountain climb after something like this..

This is why our actions speaks louder than our words... And it's best to not lie when we are dating...he was honest, she wasn't. I can see both sides but I won't belittle HIS in the process....

It was very important to me to find a man who viewed the sacredness of sex the same as I ... so I understand this poster... also I don't feel this is unreasonable in our teens..he was 19 yrs old, he wanted to marry young...he wanted a woman who was on the same page....as we all should.... 1sts are important to some of us...and there is nothing wrong with that...


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## SimplyAmorous

> *Broken.Beyond.Repair said:* Life is going perfectly but out of nowhere, *someone who knew my wife before we were together provides me with shocking information about her past.* At first I don't believe it but then I decide that I need to confront her and she breaks down and tells me that what I was told is all true. My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me. I was heart broken.* Everything we had built was on a lie. *It's so hard for me to type this because my hands are shaking. I can't even put into details some of the things that she was doing in the past before me.


 This person who shared this information with you... someone new in your lives...and old friend who suddenly wanted to spill some truths.... what do you feel his or her *motivation* was in telling you NOW.... Surely this person knew this would put a Dagger into your marriage, that he/she was dropping a Loaded BOMB.

It is good she came clean when confronted...I would think she is furious with this old friend though.


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## jld

BBR, your wife has given you four children and 20 happy years. Yes, it was wrong of her to lie to you. But could you not forgive her? Could you not try to understand? A scared young woman who knew she could, she would, be a good wife to you? And has been? So many men here would love a woman like that.

And she confessed when confronted, and felt obvious remorse.

BBR, people are not perfect. Or at least some of us are not. Are you?

Count your blessings. You have many.


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## samyeagar

SimplyAmorous said:


> This person who shared this information with you... someone new in your lives...and old friend who suddenly wanted to spill some truths.... what do you feel his or her *motivation* was in telling you NOW.... Surely this person knew this would put a Dagger into your marriage, that he/she was dropping a Loaded BOMB.
> 
> It is good she came clean when confronted...I would think she is furious with this old friend though.


I know a lot of people here are familiar with my own struggles with this very issue...without the lying. It is entirely possible that BBR, had he known all of this up front, would have continued with the relationship depending how far down the road to being in love with this woman he was.

I know that the mind movies weigh just as heavily as the lying would, are just as difficult to deal with. Some of us are just wired that way, and I make no apologies for feeling the way I do, and to be completely honest, a lot of people simply can't relate in any sympathetic or empathetic way, and frankly have no idea what they are talking about when they give advice. You SA are NOT one of them 

Addressing what you said in this post, I know from personal experience that there may not have been any kind of motive at all. Many of the people in my STBW's life have a very casual mindset when it comes to sex, and it has always been that way. It is not uncommon to hear at least mentions of past partners with no second thoughts at all. The people in my life are very different when it comes to that. So in BBR's case, it is entirely possible that someone could have casually mentioned something with no thoughts at all, or knowledge that his wife had lied.

This is why I am very thankful that my STBW has been very open and honest with me. She knows about my felings and mind movies and does her best to help. Giving me heads up when there is a possibility of being in an awkward situation, answering any and all questions openly and honestly, even when she knows her answer is something I don't want to hear.

She knows as well as I do that the past always has a way of coming back when you least expect it, in ways you'd least expect.


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## richie33

20 years in a wonderful marriage should carry a lot of weight in this matter. Hopefully you can get past this. 
Whoever told you this information is scum. I couldnt imagine anyone saying to me after 20 years of marriage and children that my wife was sleeping around before we meet.....he would be picking his teeth off the ground.


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## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> *BBR, your wife has given you four children and 20 happy years. Yes, it was wrong of her to lie to you. But could you not forgive her? Could you not try to understand? A scared young woman who knew she could, she would, be a good wife to you? And has been? So many men here would love a woman like that*.


 Jld...knowing your story -your honesty before your own husband when you 1st got together...... scared as you were.. you were painfully honest with him.. you poured it all out in tears...*.I am betting had this poster experienced THE vulnerable truth & openness in this raw manner ...he would have been moved....and this could have been sorted out 20 some yrs ago*....you are a fine example on this account. 

Maybe I am wrong, but speaking of *remorse*... I feel it comes off far more believable -flowing from our hearts...when we come forth on our own - as opposed to when we have been "found out"..."caught"... 



> *BBR, people are not perfect. Or at least some of us are not. Are you?*


 expecting perfection from anyone is setting ourselves up for a mighty fall..on a daily basis even!..... However .... expecting to be told the truth by someone we may go on to marry.. is not asking too much. 

Shared this story with my husband last night, wanted his take......his thoughts -* it's the Lying, the hiding all of these years.*..this is the betrayal.... He felt, even if she was terrified to share at 1st....how could she live with it, at least after a few years, she should have come forth..


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## EnjoliWoman

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am sure this right here is what kicks him in the gut again & again..... that what he felt was sacred just between the 2 of them...what sex represented to her (saving herself for 1 man, her husband, someone worthy of her ALL)....ya see... this was not important to her...as it was TO HIM ... your words speak volumes here...*AND THEN SHE REGRETTED IT.*...
> 
> Really...she may not regret it at all [email protected]# and secretly thinks he is being ridiculous (as many posters here feel).....but ya see...THIS WAS IMPORTANT TO HIM....and It pains me when others belittle this so often... this is why He spoke up as he did while dating.. he cared a great deal.. he DID nothing wrong.......
> 
> The sad thing is in these "learning after the fact stories"......there is no way to know - if she is just pandering to him NOW...speaking what he wants to hear...that she'd do anything to take it back, why was she so stupid... bla bla bla.... (but maybe she doesn't feel that way at all & just thinks he is too up tight- trying to save herself again)....it's the reality HE must face... Learning to trust again in someone's words is an uphill mountain climb after something like this..
> 
> This is why our actions speaks louder than our words... And it's best to not lie when we are dating...he was honest, she wasn't. I can see both sides but I won't belittle HIS in the process....
> 
> It was very important to me to find a man who viewed the sacredness of sex the same as I ... so I understand this poster... also I don't feel this is unreasonable in our teens..he was 19 yrs old, he wanted to marry young...he wanted a woman who was on the same page....as we all should.... 1sts are important to some of us...and there is nothing wrong with that...


It is true I don't know for sure she regretted it. The fact she didn't tell him the truth shows she was ashamed of it back then. 

I also understand those firsts carry different weights for different people and he was living a lie all of these years from the standpoint that he thought these experiences were something only the two shared. 

But, I think that 20 years of actions overshadow keeping up this one lie from the past for 20 years. I bet she hardly even thinks about it anymore. He has become her one and only.

I just think as long as there were no other lies, nothing since then - that they can get past this with help. Although I'm divorced, I am a huge advocate of working it out whenever possible. He loves her, she loves him. That's a good place to start.


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## SimplyAmorous

richie33 said:


> 20 years in a wonderful marriage should carry a lot of weight in this matter. Hopefully you can get past this.
> *Whoever told you this information is scum. I couldnt imagine anyone saying to me after 20 years of marriage and children that my wife was sleeping around before we meet.....he would be picking his teeth off the ground*.


Maybe it was a woman who felt he should know ...

And that's another thing.. some people would rather NOT KNOW (be spared the pain)....some want to KNOW even if it might kill them....

I do wonder if BBR could rewind these past couple weeks, if he would rather have remained in the dark -and they sailed off into the sunset together in old age...ignorance can be bliss...

I am the type if you don't tell me... I'd want to take you by the throat when I learned... horrendous betrayal to me...I don't care what it is or how bad it was, I WANT TO KNOW..... so long as you're not an Ax murderer, a pedifile.. .I think we could get past it... But the truth can have "Losses" along the way... the power of forgiveness and reconciliation is always worth this fight though!..... 










A book like this can help you wade through your feelings....



> The Art of Forgiving: Lewis B. Smedes: Books
> 
> If you are ready to make peace with those who have hurt or betrayed you, there can be no finer road map than this thoroughly practical book. Lewis Smedes brings true forgiveness, "Gods own gift," within the capacity of every wounded person, even in circumstances when only hate seems possible. With inspiring words, he leads you through the three stages of forgiveness and helps you understand:
> 
> 
> *** Why we forgive (often the person who benefits most is the forgiver)
> ** *What we do when we forgive (perhaps not what we expect)
> *** Whom we forgive (only those who directly wrong us)
> *** How we forgive (we start by owning our pain)
> 
> Using many dramatic examples drawn from life, this wise author illuminates, step by step, the healing path to peace and freedom.


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## Theseus

Machiavelli said:


> BBR, you were married under false pretenses. Basically, defrauded. ...You certainly are justified in seeking divorce under any belief system.





nuclearnightmare said:


> He shouldn't just walk away but my vote is that she is the one that needs therapy.



I don't see how either of these is constructive advice. When they got married, the OP was only 19 and his wife 20. That is too young for people to marry, IMO, but that's another issue. Immaturity does carry a price however, and not being fully honest about sexuality is one of the risks you take when you marry so young. 

And let's look at just what she lied about. She said she was raped, but in fact, she had consensual sex. So it doesn't bother the OP that she had sex per se, it bothers him that she lied to him and is actually capable of enjoying sex with a person other than him. The former is understandable, the latter is not. I don't think it's healthy for a person to believe that he/she is such a unique snowflake that their spouse should never be sexually attracted to anyone else on earth. It's akin to the threads on TAM where wives are hysterical that their husbands actually enjoy looking at other women in porn. 

OP, if she's really been a great wife for 20 years, then you have a rare wife indeed. Count your freaking blessings and enjoy your next 20 years! If you can't get past this on your own, then therapy, as many have recommended, is one option. If you don't want to do that, then just take a break from her! Go on a fishing trip by yourself, or do something that's good for you. Being away from her for a little while might make you appreciate what you have at home.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EnjoliWoman said:


> *I also understand those firsts carry different weights for different people* and he was living a lie all of these years from the standpoint that he thought these experiences were something only the two shared.


 This is more often judged over understood I am afraid... just as is Theseus last comment is about those who may PREFER to marry younger to that special person they have found and waited to have sex with. 



> *But, I think that 20 years of actions overshadow keeping up this one lie from the past for 20 years. I bet she hardly even thinks about it anymore. He has become her one and only.
> 
> I just think as long as there were no other lies, nothing since then - that they can get past this with help. Although I'm divorced, I am a huge advocate of working it out whenever possible. He loves her, she loves him. That's a good place to start*.














> *Theseus said* : *When they got married, the OP was only 19 and his wife 20. That is too young for people to marry, IMO, but that's another issue. Immaturity does carry a price however, and not being fully honest about sexuality is one of the risks you take when you marry so young.*


 Some are more mature in their late teens/ early 20's over some in their 40's ..surely we have met the immature & irresponsible (not to mention liars) at every stage of life....I know I have...

It's purely an individual thing ...depending on many factors... how one was raised, their beliefs...what type of lifestyle they want, self control, self awareness....I would never discriminate on age alone.. it is so much more.



> And let's look at just what she lied about. She said she was raped, but in fact, she had consensual sex. So it doesn't bother the OP that she had sex per se, it bothers him that she lied to him and is actually capable of enjoying sex with a person other than him. The former is understandable, the latter is not. *I don't think it's healthy for a person to believe that he/she is such a unique snowflake that their spouse should never be sexually attracted to anyone else on earth.* It's akin to the threads on TAM where wives are hysterical that their husbands actually enjoy looking at other women in porn.


 There is a grave difference over being physically attracted to the opposite sex, even enjoying some porn for that matter.. over a man sticking his appendage in you and experiencing the deep throws of intimacy & pleasure binding you together.. wouldn't you say??? 

There is something so freaking AWESOME about sex ...that no other act on the face of this planet carries as much WEIGHT...nothing has caused as much jealousy, as much pain, as much delight, it is the deepest of intimacies - but also carries the highest of betrayals when we share with another...worthy of DIVORCE itself.. and most would not hesitate.. Your comparison does not hold.


----------



## LongWalk

It is for sure disappointing to learn that there is something really false on someone's CV. Suppose someone got a job under false pretenses. They say they are a civil engineer but really dropped out of college after two years and picked up whatever skills they have on the job. Should they be fired? In big companies it ought to lead to dismissal.

There is a big difference here though. People who are dating, don't have a legal obligation to elaborate about their romantic past. When the OP sprang the question, his wife was probably not prepared. She panicked and coughed up lie. This was an impulsive act. Should someone be condemned for such a one time occurrence?

Perhaps the OP had extensive discussions about the rape.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Whether you believe she is a great wife or not, after reading all of these posts, please do not skip going to counseling. These folks are all telling you justifications for staying. They make great points. The most important point I am trying to make is, none of them know what you feel. Neither do I. 

If you brush this off and just accept without thinking through it within therapy, it WILL come back to bite you in the arse. Don't do that. Talk with someone. Just don't rip apart your family until you've talked to a trained professional within therapy. It will take time for you to absorb the information and understand enough to make the best decision for you and your family.


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Perhaps she was hoping that 20 years a good wife, and hoping that her past wouldn't would nullify those things she wished she hadn't done. I am in a similar situation in discovering that my wife had some 12 lovers, some before, some during our marriage and most while we were separated. We have been married for 39 years and have been reconciled nearly 11 years. Since the confession I have had the mind movies, the triggers and wonder if I am her Plan *
(or rather, Plan [l]). I told her how I felt we cried a bit, and she is helping me to work it out. What I would say, is that if your wife loves you, is remorseful about and ashamed of her past and she has been 20 years and four children in a good marriage that it behoves the two of you to work on it together, find a good therapist and get through this bump. You can't change the past, but you have the future. How would you feel if ten years from now you realize that you threw away the wife and family that you loved most. Good luck to you, I sincerely hope you can work it out and do what's best for both of you. I would also add that you can never underestimate the strength of the heart, to absorb hurt, to forgive and to love again.*


----------



## nevergveup

You need to talk to someone so you can better deal with
your finding out the truth about her past.

Do I think I could forgive my wife if she did the same thing?
Yes I could.Where only human and we have all made mistakes.

If your wife has been a good mom and a faithful honest
wife for the whole marriage this is what counts.

She was young and possibly naive and never met husband
material until you came along.She possibly lied because
she was embarrassed and possibly ashamed for sleeping
around.

If all this happened before you where with her,and she 
has been faithful and loving to you,its all in the past.

Be that strong and loving partner she married.
Its you that rocks her world.Comparing yourself
to other males is always a loosing battle.

If your marriage has been good for 20yrs you and her have something special and its you she choose to have your children
and spend her life with you.

I know it is not easy finding out now,but you need to
forgive her and let this go.

Good Luck


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thinkitthrough said:


> Perhaps she was hoping that 20 years a good wife, and hoping that her past wouldn't would nullify those things she wished she hadn't done. I am in a similar situation in discovering that my wife had some 12 lovers, some before, some during our marriage and most while we were separated. We have been married for 39 years and have been reconciled nearly 11 years. Since the confession I have had the mind movies, the triggers and wonder if I am her Plan *
> (or rather, Plan [l]). I told her how I felt we cried a bit, and she is helping me to work it out. What I would say, is that if your wife loves you, is remorseful about and ashamed of her past and she has been 20 years and four children in a good marriage that it behoves the two of you to work on it together, find a good therapist and get through this bump. You can't change the past, but you have the future. How would you feel if ten years from now you realize that you threw away the wife and family that you loved most. Good luck to you, I sincerely hope you can work it out and do what's best for both of you. I would also add that you can never underestimate the strength of the heart, to absorb hurt, to forgive and to love again.*


*

I'm not picking on you, but there is more than one problem here that is serious. He likely doesn't trust her now. That's a big one because it will affect everything in their relationship. Next, he probably doesn't trust himself. He believed her and trusted his gut. Now, he is presented with this, twenty years later. 

Usually, we trust ourselves when we can't trust others. Take both away, and it's a disaster. He needs to see a therapist to help him trust himself first, then, if he can do what you and most others suggest, he can learn to trust her again. 

There is also the little thing of, hey, I was really proud of myself for winning such a beautiful, lovely woman, who was low exposure to sex, but was quite willing to try new things with me and learn with me. Guess what? She taught him how to have sex. So, all those years, when he thought she was a lovely understanding wife, were all bull crap, because she was patronizing him. Or at least, I'm betting he feels that way. And now, he's wondering if he is good enough for her. 

So yeah, drop it and move on? No freakin' way that will happen. None. He has to get therapy, now. He has to become a new man who believes in himself or his marriage is doomed. Don't believe me? This has fundamentally changed how he thinks about himself. I bet he has a hard time looking his children in the eyes. It has less to do with the sex and the number of partners than what he believes about himself being, "the man", who won a prize and has something no one else could have. 

Delusional thinking? Yes, but he's in trouble, now. It's partly his wife's fault. Is she worth staying with? I don't know. I think, but I don't know. In any case, that's for him to decide. If folks divorce over one instance of infidelity, this IS a huge deal, because it has damaged who believes he is and if he is not able to repair that, he's done anyway.*


----------



## samyeagar

I keep seeing suggestions that his wife may be, or should be ashamed of her past, but I don't think thats right either. I think it is also quite likely that his wife hasn't given her lie a second thought for most of the time they have been together. When she said what she said, she probably didn't think it would ever come up, I mean why would it? From his description, she has been a great wife and mother, love him dearly, and that rightfully out weighs pretty much anything else.

In dealing with my own issues with this, one thing I have discovered is that many people use the lie as a rationalization for being upset when it is the mind movies that keep playing over and over, not allowing you to move past it. If it was a lie told 20 years ago that did not have mind movies associated with it, it would be so much easier to move past, and may not be much of an isue as all, especially if the lie had no real long term consequences, as this one did not.


----------



## 2ntnuf

samyeagar said:


> *I keep seeing suggestions that his wife may be, or should be ashamed of her past,* but I don't think thats right either. I think it is also quite likely that his wife hasn't given her lie a second thought for most of the time they have been together. When she said what she said, she probably didn't think it would ever come up, I mean why would it? From his description, she has been a great wife and mother, love him dearly, and that rightfully out weighs pretty much anything else.
> 
> In dealing with my own issues with this, one thing I have discovered is that many people use the lie as a rationalization for being upset when it is the mind movies that keep playing over and over, not allowing you to move past it. If it was a lie told 20 years ago that did not have mind movies associated with it, it would be so much easier to move past, and may not be much of an isue as all, especially if the lie had no real long term consequences, as this one did not.


I hope you don't mean me, because, if you do, you do not understand what I am saying. You really don't.


----------



## Thundarr

New flash BBR...... Her past is not the problem. It's not the root cause of why you're obsessing either.

Deceit is the problem and the actual betrayal. In your mind BBR, her keeping this secret from you bring her honesty and integrity in question.

I understand being ashamed makes people hide their past which is probably why she didn't tell you back then. Betrayal is more damaging the the actions behind it. Anyone who thinks it's not a big deal is missing the point.

BBR, try to understand she was ashamed and afraid she'd lose you and that's probably why she made this terrible mistake. It was a terrible mistake no doubt. That doesn't make her a terrible person though.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thundarr said:


> New flash BBR...... Her past is not the problem. It's not the root cause of why you're obsessing either.
> 
> Deceit is the problem and the actual betrayal. In your mind BBR, her keeping this secret from you bring her honesty and integrity in question.
> 
> I understand being ashamed makes people hide their past which is probably why she didn't tell you back then. Betrayal is more damaging the the actions behind it. Anyone who thinks it's not a big deal is missing the point.
> 
> BBR, try to understand she was ashamed and afraid she'd lose you and that's probably why she made this terrible mistake. It was a terrible mistake no doubt. That doesn't make her a terrible person though.


I really don't think he truly thinks she IS a terrible person. That's just part and parcel to losing all the self-respect he had. It's a symptom.


----------



## samyeagar

2ntnuf said:


> I hope you don't mean me, because, if you do, you do not understand what I am saying. You really don't.


Nah, I get what you are saying.

About her lying because she was ashamed, I don't think her feeling ashamed, or regretted her past had much to do with why she lied. I think it was likely that she was falling in love with him, knew that he likely couldn't deal wth hearing it even though it had nothing to do with him at all, and had no actual, physical bearing at all. Much like if she had told him she had never been to Paris, then come to find out 20 years later, she lived there for three years. She was young and dumb, and in love.

My STBW and I have talked about her past a bit to help me understand, and one thing she does not do is feel generally ashamed. Sure, there were specific instalnces she is both ashamed of and regrets, but not the totality of it. His wife is likely the same. The only regret she really has is that she sees how her past is affecting me, and is so completely in love with me, that if she knew then about now, she might have made some different decisions, but then again, she was young and dumb and thought she could find love.


----------



## 2ntnuf

samyeagar said:


> Nah, I get what you are saying.
> 
> *About her lying because she was ashamed*, I don't think her feeling ashamed, or regretted her past had much to do with why she lied. I think it was likely that she was falling in love with him, knew that he likely couldn't deal wth hearing it even though it had nothing to do with him at all, and had no actual, physical bearing at all. Much like if she had told him she had never been to Paris, then come to find out 20 years later, she lived there for three years. She was young and dumb, and in love.
> 
> My STBW and I have talked about her past a bit to help me understand, and one thing she does not do is feel generally ashamed. Sure, there were specific instalnces she is both ashamed of and regrets, but not the totality of it. His wife is likely the same. The only regret she really has is that she sees how her past is affecting me, and is so completely in love with me, that if she knew then about now, she might have made some different decisions, but then again, she was young and dumb and thought she could find love.


Nope. Let's let him respond.


----------



## NovellaBiers

OP I think you are exaggerating. Her past has nothing to do with you. She is still the same woman who has been the perfect wife for 20 years like you mentioned.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I am sorry to read your pain in this thread and I cannot really say why she did not tell you although a lot of potential reasons have already been covered. And as for the lying part of it, I guess it is closely linked to the reason for not telling you e.g. if she was ashamed or whatever. However, I will tell you this:

I would much rather have a wife that had a very colourful past before she met me but was a loving, loyal and good wife during our marriage then have a wife that was a veritable saint before she met me but then turned out to be a lying, cheating scumbag.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I don't think it's her past. It's THEIR past. He has to come back and let us know.


----------



## norajane

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I feel like I am slowly dying inside and have constant thoughts of suicide but I have 4 kids that need me.
> 
> I feel as if I am *broken beyond repair*.


Please find a therapist to help you with these constant thoughts of suicide. They aren't magically going to go away no matter what kind of advice is given to you on an internet forum. You need some professional help.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Lifeline

Thank you, norajane. I apologize, Broken.Beyond.Repair. Don't give up. This too, shall pass, one way or another.


----------



## Thor

BBR, I've only been through the first 2 pages of your thread so far.

I can relate somewhat to your situation. I was a virgin when I met my wife, she had 3 previous boyfriends she admitted to. She portrayed it as she held off a long time with each before having sex with them. She also minimized a lot of the details, omitting some important information.

Then 29 years later I started to learn the truth. Some from her, some from other sources such as her high school yearbooks. Though I have little in the way of specifics, I know her history was more extensive and casual than she ever revealed to me. She did recently describe herself as "promiscuous as a teen".

I have a lot to say but not enough time right now. The first thing I'd suggest is you consider a sex moratorium with her. Perhaps 30 days where you both agree no sex. You can, and should, have other physical affections such as hugging, holding hands, even kissing. Just don't do anything to do with genitals.

This is not punishment nor setting up to leave the marriage. It is to take the issues of sex out of the mix as much as possible. Sex can be confusing, and it can cause all kinds of emotions.

Secondly, I think you should report to your wife how this feels and what you are thinking. Do it in a non-accusatory way. This is not to make her feel bad, it is to help her have perspective on how you feel and why you might have certain behaviors. For you, this is all new information, whereas for her it is very very old. She may not understand what is going on inside you.

You could tell her that you feel betrayed, or that your marriage was based on lies. You might wonder what other lies or major deceptions are out there you don't know about. You might feel she manipulated you. You might feel disappointed in her for lying all those years. You might wonder what her core values really are.

Whatever is accurate for you, you should report to her. I would preface the conversation with you are not attacking her with these things, you are simply telling her what your thoughts are. I would also state that you love her and you value your marriage to her.

You might want to look into a few books. No More Mr. Nice Guy by R. Glover is the first one that comes to mine. 5 Love Languages is another you might benefit from in the short term.

I believe a good marriage counselor could help you. You have every right to your feelings about what happened. And she has every right to have been sexual. What was wrong was lying to you. It is a betrayal, and it needs to be properly processed. Not swept under the rug. Talk it out. She has to show remorse and make amends to you. You have to find a way to, eventually, come to terms with it. And then you can move forward.

Another book which may help is "After the Affair" by J. Spring. While this is not an affair, many of the same principles will apply to both of you.


----------



## larry.gray

NovellaBiers said:


> OP I think you are exaggerating. Her past has nothing to do with you. She is still the same woman who has been the perfect wife for 20 years like you mentioned.


I predict your stay on this forum will not be long.

You need to learn some empathy for others. Just because it's no big deal to you doesn't make it less important to him. Just because you don't think it should be makes it less important to him.

Yes, it think it'd be better in the end to forgive her. But telling him to quit isn't going to do squat.


----------



## Thor

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not picking on you, but there is more than one problem here that is serious. He likely doesn't trust her now. That's a big one because it will affect everything in their relationship. Next, he probably doesn't trust himself. He believed her and trusted his gut. Now, he is presented with this, twenty years later.
> 
> Usually, we trust ourselves when we can't trust others. Take both away, and it's a disaster. He needs to see a therapist to help him trust himself first, then, if he can do what you and most others suggest, he can learn to trust her again.


:iagree: 100%


----------



## Theseus

larry.gray said:


> I predict your stay on this forum will not be long.
> 
> You need to learn some empathy for others. Just because it's no big deal to you doesn't make it less important to him. Just because you don't think it should be makes it less important to him.
> 
> Yes, it think it'd be better in the end to forgive her. But telling him to quit isn't going to do squat.



I disagree. We are talking about a lie the woman told *20 years ago*, about something she did before she even met her future husband. 

It isn't about something important. And that is relevant. If the OP was this upset because his wife lied about kissing someone else when she was younger, would the issue be just as serious?


----------



## Thundarr

NovellaBiers said:


> OP I think you are exaggerating. Her past has nothing to do with you. She is still the same woman who has been the perfect wife for 20 years like you mentioned.


NovellaBiers the thing is honesty up front would have prevented this to begin with. No one likes to feel that their personal choices were taken away and especially by someone you love. It makes people feel tricked and betrayed.



Theseus said:


> I disagree. We are talking about a lie the woman told *20 years ago*, about something she did before she even met her future husband.
> 
> It isn't about something important. And that is relevant. If the OP was this upset because his wife lied about kissing someone else when she was younger, would the issue be just as serious?


There again missing the same point. You're right the lie is about something insignificant. The lie it's self was a somewhat significant but not correcting it for twenty years is the most significant part.


----------



## Thor

Thundarr said:


> I understand being ashamed makes people hide their past which is probably why she didn't tell you back then. Betrayal is more damaging the the actions behind it. Anyone who thinks it's not a big deal is missing the point.
> 
> BBR, try to understand she was ashamed and afraid she'd lose you and that's probably why she made this terrible mistake. It was a terrible mistake no doubt. That doesn't make her a terrible person though.


I would not assume she ever felt ashamed of what she did. Man, so much of this comes down to personal belief systems, too. She may simply felt that he would not accept her past, and so she lied about it. It could be that simple and that contained. She may not have felt shame, but in the intervening years she may never have had a thought to stray, and may never have thought back "fondly" upon her previous experiences.

It is easy to project onto her various things which may or may not be accurate. Us and the OP have to be careful what is a known fact vs what is conjecture. Mind movies are conjecture. Assuming she feels guilt or shame now, or she felt them in the past, is conjecture. Assuming she enjoyed those experiences is conjecture.

OP, take care of yourself. You're in crisis right now. Once this settles down a bit you can start on the healing process. Eat healthy, avoid alcohol or other substances. Walk a lot. Get whatever exercise you can consistent with your health. Sleep. If you're feeling depressed take 50 or 100mg of 5-HTP twice per day (once mid afternoon, once late evening). It is an amino acid and thus safe to take. (See the book "Mood Cure" for more info).


----------



## Thor

Thundarr said:


> NovellaBiers the thing is honesty up front would have prevented this to begin with. No one likes to feel that their personal choices were taken away and especially by someone you love. It makes people feel tricked and betrayed.


:iagree: X 1 Billion


----------



## sidney2718

LongWalk said:


> It is for sure disappointing to learn that there is something really false on someone's CV. Suppose someone got a job under false pretenses. They say they are a civil engineer but really dropped out of college after two years and picked up whatever skills they have on the job. Should they be fired? In big companies it ought to lead to dismissal.
> 
> There is a big difference here though. People who are dating, don't have a legal obligation to elaborate about their romantic past. When the OP sprang the question, his wife was probably not prepared. She panicked and coughed up lie. This was an impulsive act. Should someone be condemned for such a one time occurrence?
> 
> Perhaps the OP had extensive discussions about the rape.


I agree with LongWalk. But I'd go a bit further. When one marries one does not own their partner. Nor do they own their partner's past. Especially in sexual matters.

It is not enough to teach young people morality. One also has to teach them reality. And the reality is that folks will lie to keep a relationship with someone who they know will judge them harshly if they are honest. It was a gamble on his wife's part -- and probably a hasty choice as LongWalk says -- and it worked for 20 years. And in that 20 years the OP's wife turned into a wonderful wife and mother, I'm sure in part due to the OP's aid and moral support.

I know that the OP will have trouble getting past it. But I'm sure his religion teaches forgiveness as well as sexual purity. And I'm sure he is good enough to be able to forgive.


----------



## Thor

Theseus said:


> I disagree. We are talking about a lie the woman told *20 years ago*, about something she did before she even met her future husband.
> 
> It isn't about something important. And that is relevant. If the OP was this upset because his wife lied about kissing someone else when she was younger, would the issue be just as serious?


To the OP, sexual history and virginity were very important. Thus her lies about it are important.

Sure, there have been 20 years now of her being a good wife and mother. It does not erase the fact that this is an important basic value to the OP which she lied about.


----------



## larry.gray

Theseus said:


> I disagree. We are talking about a lie the woman told *20 years ago*, about something she did before she even met her future husband.
> 
> It isn't about something important. And that is relevant. If the OP was this upset because his wife lied about kissing someone else when she was younger, would the issue be just as serious?


How exactly is this supposed to help him?

You're trivializing how he feels. All your post is going to do is incite arguments.


----------



## 2ntnuf

When it gets bad and you don't know how to cope, try this. It may help to get you through the worst of the depression. 

USE FOR ANXIETY ATTACKS:
CLOSE YOUR EYES, LISTEN FOR 5 DISTINCT SOUNDS AND IDENTIFY THEM... THEN OPEN YOUR EYES, LOOK AROUND AND NOTICE 4 THINGS... THEN CLOSE YOUR EYES AGAIN AND THINK OF THREE THINGS YOU CAN FEEL (LIKE YOUR PULSE, YOUR FEET TOUCHING THE FLOOR, THE TENSION IN YOUR MUSCLES), THEN DO 2 THINGS YOU CAN HEAR, AND FINALLY ONE MORE TIME SOMETHING YOU CAN SEE.


----------



## larry.gray

Thor said:


> I would not assume she ever felt ashamed of what she did. Man, so much of this comes down to personal belief systems, too. She may simply felt that he would not accept her past, and so she lied about it. It could be that simple and that contained. She may not have felt shame, but in the intervening years she may never have had a thought to stray, and may never have thought back "fondly" upon her previous experiences.


:iagree:

People seem to be in two camps on this. We don't know where she stands. The only way he's going to know is to ask her. The problem is that trust is short right now because of the past lie. 

BBR needs to rebuild trust. He hasn't said if there are any other hints she's lied. I'm sure he's replaying the whole marriage, wondering what other lies there are. Her coming clean without any trickle truth is a good first start.

I'd suggest he let her know that his biggest issue is the loss of trust. I'd suggest that he tell her that the thing she's got to do the most is be always honest. Never tell him what she thinks he wants to hear, or what gets her the least trouble. Also add that any further lie no doubt will get caught down the road, the best policy is to just be honest.

That said, I think the first questions he wants answered are what her views on the subject are. "Does she feel ashamed of what she did?" Tell her it's OK to answer no if it's the truth - that what she can feel bad about is how it made BBR feel, but that's not the same as internalized shame.


----------



## 2ntnuf

When I read that, Larry, it made me think that she really doesn't trust him. It's a different perspective and supports his thoughts that he is less than the man he thought he was.


Edit: I don't believe she thinks that way. It's just what I, "heard", in my head when I read that.


----------



## larry.gray

2ntnuf said:


> When I read that, Larry, it made me think that she really doesn't trust him. It's a different perspective and supports his thoughts that he is less than the man he thought he was.


Well we have the problem that only BBR is here and she's not so we can't suggest it to her; but she's going to have to now.

She did this by telling him what she thinks he wants her to hear. If she does this again, it may be the end of their marriage, because this time he'll figure out faster. 

If she's thinking this is a situation to 'manage' just like she did last time, she's mistaken. This is going to dog him for a while, and if she tries 'management' (lying more) he's going to figure it out. Each caught lie makes this marriages survival less likely. 



2ntnuf said:


> Edit: I don't believe she thinks that way. It's just what I, "heard", in my head when I read that.


I'd say probably not. Never coming clean makes me think that.


----------



## Thor

larry.gray said:


> I'd suggest he let her know that his biggest issue is the loss of trust. I'd suggest that he tell her that the thing she's got to do the most is be always honest. Never tell him what she thinks he wants to hear, or what gets her the least trouble. Also add that any further lie no doubt will get caught down the road, the best policy is to just be honest.


My wife didn't believe me when I told her those things over the past 2.5 yrs. It is going to be the cause of the end of our marriage.


----------



## Thundarr

Thor said:


> I would not assume she ever felt ashamed of what she did. Man, so much of this comes down to personal belief systems, too. She may simply felt that he would not accept her past, and so she lied about it. It could be that simple and that contained. She may not have felt shame, but in the intervening years she may never have had a thought to stray, and may never have thought back "fondly" upon her previous experiences.


That's actually what I meant even though I used the word "ashamed". There's grey area between fear of judgement, embarrassment, and shame. The contributing factors make her lie and that's the problem. The dishonesty is the problem.


----------



## 2ntnuf

larry.gray said:


> Well we have the problem that only BBR is here and she's not so we can't suggest it to her; but she's going to have to now.
> 
> She did this by telling him what she thinks he wants her to hear. If she does this again, it may be the end of their marriage, because this time he'll figure out faster.
> 
> If she's thinking this is a situation to 'manage' just like she did last time, she's mistaken. This is going to dog him for a while, and if she tries 'management' (lying more) he's going to figure it out. Each caught lie makes this marriages survival less likely.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say probably not. Never coming clean makes me think that.


I agree. He needs to beat the depression first, or he won't see what you just stated is true. He will hang around, hoping for change. She will do as you suggest is best not to do, thinking she is helping him get over it. 

I think Thor is right, but can't remember if he stated this. BBR has to beat the depression before he will be able to think clearly and make good decisions. 

Unfortunately, this is conjecture, too, without further input. I keep sprinkling the thread with help with depression, hoping he will start there. This is really sad. 

Fortunately, I didn't get a bunch of detailed, gory information which undermined my trust completely, or my wife justifying and saying sorry, that would have made it worse. I made the mistake of thinking I could handle even just a little. It takes some counseling to understand and accept, it has nothing to do with her past. It's what's inside you, BBR. I'm sorry for you and your family, BBR.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

samyeagar said:


> *I keep seeing suggestions that his wife may be, or should be ashamed of her past, but I don't think thats right either. *


 I was trying to address the reality of this... her NOT feeling ashamed ..no regrets and what that REALLY MEANS TO HIM... in post #23.....if no regrets the truth is...their values and belief systems were way off... it's not a little thing...it's a part of us, our foundation even... it meant she was willing to separate love & sex - just for consensual FUN & excitement... Theseus is never going to "get it' ...now he wants to equate kissing with intercourse.. He is a "PLAIN SEX, SEX IS JUST SEX, just like kissing" man! 

And BBR was / still is...very much against this sort of casual- ness.... judge it as you will.. he had higher standards... I don't see them as hangups -though that loves to be thrown around here... so long as one finds a partner who feels the same -*which was his intention at the outset*... They can be happily hung up and revel in all of their 1sts together..this was his ideal... Broken record here..this was stolen from him...



> * I think it is also quite likely that his wife hasn't given her lie a second thought for most of the time they have been together. When she said what she said, she probably didn't think it would ever come up, I mean why would it? From his description, she has been a great wife and mother, love him dearly, and that rightfully out weighs pretty much anything else*.


 This depends too, someone with a conscience, knowing they secretly lied about something that meant a great great deal to HIM (even if it didn't to HER)...how does one DO THIS......how could it not eat at you.... she told a story of being Raped .... did she replay this over ....as to make sure it always lined up -IF it came up again... this is a divided mind... I think it's more telling ...if it Didn't bother her over the years...


----------



## RClawson

samyeagar said:


> I keep seeing suggestions that his wife may be, or should be ashamed of her past, but I don't think thats right either. I think it is also quite likely that his wife hasn't given her lie a second thought for most of the time they have been together. When she said what she said, she probably didn't think it would ever come up, I mean why would it? From his description, she has been a great wife and mother, love him dearly, and that rightfully out weighs pretty much anything else.
> 
> In dealing with my own issues with this, one thing I have discovered is that many people use the lie as a rationalization for being upset when it is the mind movies that keep playing over and over, not allowing you to move past it. If it was a lie told 20 years ago that did not have mind movies associated with it, it would be so much easier to move past, and may not be much of an isue as all, especially if the lie had no real long term consequences, as this one did not.


Whether or not she is ashamed about her past is not the point. She should absolutely be ashamed for not being forthright with him and lying to him about the circumstances. Been there lived that and it sucks..................still.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Thundarr said:


> NovellaBiers the thing is honesty up front would have prevented this to begin with. No one likes to feel that their personal choices were taken away and especially by someone you love. It makes people feel tricked and betrayed.
> 
> There again missing the same point. You're right the lie is about something insignificant. The lie it's self was a somewhat significant but not correcting it for twenty years is the most significant part.


How is she different now then? She is is still the same person. She has not done anything illegal just *living a normal life* and sex belongs to that.

I don't think the lying was right but seeing nightmares of her having sex with other men over 20 years ago as a teenager before she even knew him? You are making a mountain out of a molehill.


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## treyvion

RClawson said:


> Whether or not she is ashamed about her past is not the point. She should absolutely be ashamed for not being forthright with him and lying to him about the circumstances. Been there lived that and it sucks..................still.


Those old friends should not have been able to say that to him without him knowing. Because at least then he knew and it wouldn't really affect him.


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## larry.gray

SimplyAmorous said:


> And BBR was / still is...very much against this sort of casual- ness.... judge it as you will.. he had *higher standards*... I don't see them as hangups -though that loves to be thrown around here... so long as one finds a partner who feels the same -*which was his intention at the outset*... They can be happily hung up and revel in all of their 1sts together..this was his ideal... Broken record here..this was stolen from him...


As someone who's on the same page as you, I respectfully suggest you don't use the phase "higher standards."

Try "different standards."

"Higher standards" implies moral superiority. Much of the ire that brings those with differing views here is because they feel they are being judged. I'd rather 'they' go away unless they are here to offer _constructive_ advice to BBR. We have several here to just argue that you, I and BBR shouldn't have the standards that we do.


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## larry.gray

treyvion said:


> Those old friends should not have been able to say that to him without him knowing. Because at least then he knew and it wouldn't really affect him.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Do you mean that her friends should be sure about her level of revealing her past before letting him in on it? Or that she should have been honest so them revealing wouldn't matter?


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## Thor

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was trying to address the reality of this... her NOT feeling ashamed ..no regrets and what that REALLY MEANS TO HIM... in post #23.....if no regrets the truth is...their values and belief systems were way off... it's not a little thing...it's a part of us, our foundation even... it meant she was willing to separate love & sex - just for consensual FUN & excitement... Theseus is never going to "get it' ...now he wants to equate kissing with intercourse.. He is a "PLAIN SEX, SEX IS JUST SEX, just like kissing" man! .


I probably won't explain this very well but I want to expand on what you wrote. For reference, I was a virgin when I met my wife, though _for me_ it was not a religiously based sort of higher moral standard. Yet, _for me_ sex was something special and not just a casual moment of impersonal pleasure. I'd had some physical experience with a serious girlfriend, but never anything approaching intercourse. I would have been fine with having sex with multiple _serious_ girlfriends before marriage.

For my entire life, the only person I have ever had sex with is my wife. She is the only person I have ever shown that part of me to, emotionally speaking. She is the only person who has ever seen me in that state of vulnerability. She is the only person I have given that gift of such a personal act to.

It is literally impossible to ever have that relationship with another human again. Even if I were to meet a soul mate and we have mind blowing sex for the next 30 years, sex will never be _exclusive_.

I knew my wife was not a virgin, so I didn't have the image that for her she felt the same way about sex with me. And, honestly, it did bother me on one level. For her, it was just sex with another male body when she had sex with me. Hopefully there was love or emotion involved when she had sex with me, but I know for a fact she felt love and emotion when she had sex with her previous boyfriends. Idk details about casual encounters, though they did happen, but there wouldn't have been love involved.

It takes a lot of the specialness out of the sex we have to know it is "just sex" to her.

I think OP may be dealing with this as a big part of his mind movies. Not being the only one she has _enjoyed_ sex with, that is a big contrast to believing it was as special for her as it was for you.


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## SimplyAmorous

larry.gray said:


> *As someone who's on the same page as you, I respectfully suggest you don't use the phase "higher standards."
> 
> Try "different standards."
> 
> "Higher standards" implies moral superiority.* Much of the ire that brings those with differing views here is because they feel they are being judged. I'd rather 'they' go away unless they are here to offer _constructive_ advice to BBR. We have several here to just argue that you, I and BBR shouldn't have the standards that we do.


Point well taken Larry.Gray ...you are RIGHT.. different standards...different boundaries if you will...This is good. :smthumbup: 

But really...we are so in the minority... many do not understand nor care to, we are seen as too sensitive, too hung up....we are put down for pedestalizing sex, and spoken of -in ways that refer to us as too religious, or living in the 19___'s....you know it goes both ways.... 

I hate it sometimes.. but it is what it is... Just hoping what BBR is dealing with / his feelings, that they won't be trivialized in this way.


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## larry.gray

SimplyAmorous said:


> But really...we are so in the minority... many do not understand nor care to, we are seen as too sensitive, too hung up....we are put down for pedestalizing sex, and spoken of -in ways that refer to us as too religious, or living in the 19___'s....you know it goes both ways....


When you give them the respect they are unwilling to give you, then you are taking the higher moral ground


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## 2ntnuf

Thor said:


> I probably won't explain this very well but I want to expand on what you wrote. For reference, I was a virgin when I met my wife, though _for me_ it was not a religiously based sort of higher moral standard. Yet, _for me_ sex was something special and not just a casual moment of impersonal pleasure. I'd had some physical experience with a serious girlfriend, but never anything approaching intercourse. I would have been fine with having sex with multiple _serious_ girlfriends before marriage.
> 
> For my entire life, the only person I have ever had sex with is my wife. She is the only person I have ever shown that part of me to, emotionally speaking. She is the only person who has ever seen me in that state of vulnerability. She is the only person I have given that gift of such a personal act to.
> 
> It is literally impossible to ever have that relationship with another human again. Even if I were to meet a soul mate and we have mind blowing sex for the next 30 years, sex will never be _exclusive_.
> 
> I knew my wife was not a virgin, so I didn't have the image that for her she felt the same way about sex with me. And, honestly, it did bother me on one level. For her, it was just sex with another male body when she had sex with me. Hopefully there was love or emotion involved when she had sex with me, but I know for a fact she felt love and emotion when she had sex with her previous boyfriends. Idk details about casual encounters, though they did happen, but there wouldn't have been love involved.
> 
> It takes a lot of the specialness out of the sex we have to know it is "just sex" to her.
> 
> I think OP may be dealing with this as a big part of his mind movies. Not being the only one she has _enjoyed_ sex with, that is a big contrast to believing it was as special for her as it was for you.


Get out of my head, it's scary. 

Edit: I was a virgin with my first wife, not my second. I had no where near the experience or similar thoughts, my second wife had. It was all so close to what you wrote, I can't believe it. I didn't think there were others who understood this.


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## SimplyAmorous

Thor said:


> I probably won't explain this very well but I want to expand on what you wrote. * For reference, I was a virgin when I met my wife, though for me it was not a religiously based sort of higher moral standard. Yet, for me sex was something special and not just a casual moment of impersonal pleasure. *


 you sound just like my husband, he was never religious either (could care less)... though everyone automatically thinks that's the problem.. it sounds you hold the Romantic view of sexuality...explained  Here  ... along with the *Covenant view*, *Procreative*, *Plain sex view*, *Power view *and *Expressive view*.. (3 of these believe in exclusivity / love & Commitment as a string... 3 do not require it)... 



> *3. ** Romantic View *~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "save yourself for the one, your beloved"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> Sex should be reserved for those who are deeply in love with the strings of emotional attachment/commitment. Loveless sex is not appropriate, People should be sexually faithful as long as love lasts. Those who hold the romantic view often talk in terms of sex as sacred, as a Gift to be preserved & given to someone of profound significance.
> 
> Romantic view holds that sex should be connected with a thirst for deep psychological & bodily knowledge, Mutually reciprocated gift-giving & intimacy are it's purpose.
> 
> The feeling of being in love is a feeling that one’s beloved is an irreplaceable soul mate.
> 
> Complications arise, however, when romantic feelings do not last or when someone who has made a commitment to sexual exclusivity finds himself or herself in love with someone else.
> 
> The romantic view emphasizes interpersonal intimacy, but sees the duration of commitment as contingent. Commitment lasts for as long as romantic love lasts. But commitment is a must. A one-time encounter with a stranger may be consensual -but it would not be appropriate for those who hold the Romantic view.





> *Thor said*: *For my entire life, the only person I have ever had sex with is my wife. She is the only person I have ever shown that part of me to, emotionally speaking. She is the only person who has ever seen me in that state of vulnerability. She is the only person I have given that gift of such a personal act to*.


 I would think any wife would be so honored to have THIS.. by the way you speak, maybe she didn't show this to you ...or you felt it...

I wanted an inexperienced male...I wanted to explore all of that awkward vulnerability together....I know how much this meant -and still means to my husband.....

You effectively have put into words ...just how this may feel/ the struggle - for those who have walked in a similar situation....this is probably why so many men pat you on the back.. just go get laid son...have a good time!... to avoid this sort of thing... I just know my husband wasn't this type of man.. None of our sons seem to be either....what can you do! 



> *I knew my wife was not a virgin, so I didn't have the image that for her she felt the same way about sex with me. And, honestly, it did bother me on one level. For her, it was just sex with another male body when she had sex with me. Hopefully there was love or emotion involved when she had sex with me, but I know for a fact she felt love and emotion when she had sex with her previous boyfriends. Idk details about casual encounters, though they did happen, but there wouldn't have been love involved.
> 
> It takes a lot of the specialness out of the sex we have to know it is "just sex" to her.*


 She married you Thor, surely you have re-written what was, the emotionally connected years you must have felt at one time....


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## treyvion

larry.gray said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Do you mean that her friends should be sure about her level of revealing her past before letting him in on it? Or that she should have been honest so them revealing wouldn't matter?


No. The husband shouldn't have been the "outsider", he should've known and known more about the friends than they know about her and him.


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## Machiavelli

Theseus said:


> I don't see how either of these is constructive advice. When they got married, the OP was only 19 and his wife 20. That is too young for people to marry, IMO, but that's another issue.


Mother Nature would seem to be in disagreement with you, since the prime years for reproduction are 14-30, with 13-14% of women already reaching infertility by age 29. Up until 150 years ago it was common for women to be married at the traditional age of the first stage of adulthood: youth. That would be 13 years of age. My own MIL was married at 14. Boys were married at the same age or a couple of years later, depending on the culture, with some notable exceptions like the Greeks (not that there's anything wrong with that). 



Theseus said:


> Immaturity does carry a price however, and not being fully honest about sexuality is one of the risks you take when you marry so young.


I would say reinstating traditional marriage ages would solve the problem.



Theseus said:


> And let's look at just what she lied about. She said she was raped, but in fact, she had consensual sex.


False rape claim.



Theseus said:


> So it doesn't bother the OP that she had sex per se, it bothers him that she lied to him and is actually capable of enjoying sex with a person other than him. The former is understandable, the latter is not.


Ummm, no. OP got treated to the old "bait and switch." That's illegal. While the OP may have some odd or constrained views on sex, we don't really know what the OP's lying wife was into, since he didn't say. Trains, dogs, who knows? But it doesn't matter, OP was looking for a diamond and he got a rock. Now, maybe she's turned into a diamond by her exposure to the OP, and OP needs to consider that, but we really don't know what kind of rock she was or is. OP doesn't even know if this has been continuing behind his back this whole time.



Theseus said:


> I don't think it's healthy for a person to believe that he/she is such a unique snowflake that their spouse should never be sexually attracted to anyone else on earth. It's akin to the threads on TAM where wives are hysterical that their husbands actually enjoy looking at other women in porn.


And of course that's not the problem here. The problem is the OP's lying wife is a lying wife. OP has been scammed.



Theseus said:


> OP, if she's really been a great wife for 20 years, then you have a rare wife indeed. Count your freaking blessings and enjoy your next 20 years!


This is quite true, but he has no idea who his wife is. He hasn't even had a chance to do the DNA yet.


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## Machiavelli

LongWalk said:


> It is for sure disappointing to learn that there is something really false on someone's CV. Suppose someone got a job under false pretenses. They say they are a civil engineer but really dropped out of college after two years and picked up whatever skills they have on the job. Should they be fired? In big companies it ought to lead to dismissal.
> 
> There is a big difference here though. People who are dating, don't have a legal obligation to elaborate about their romantic past. When the OP sprang the question, his wife was probably not prepared. She panicked and coughed up lie. This was an impulsive act. Should someone be condemned for such a one time occurrence?
> 
> Perhaps the OP had extensive discussions about the rape.


False rape claims carry a criminal penalty when they are made to the police. This is a civil matter, it can be hashed out in family court if the plaintiff wishes.


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## 2ntnuf

> This is quite true, but he has no idea who his wife is.


You may as well scrap the first twenty years. He doesn't know her. He know's how she acts. Is that good enough? Maybe.


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## Machiavelli

2ntnuf said:


> You may as well scrap the first twenty years. He doesn't know her. He know's how she acts. Is that good enough? Maybe.


Here's the thing: once the ride has been broken in, you can never really know how many miles the thing has on it. In this case, the odometer was even rolled back. Outright fraud.


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## treyvion

2ntnuf said:


> You may as well scrap the first twenty years. He doesn't know her. He know's how she acts. Is that good enough? Maybe.


I disagree. The her that she is around him, could be HER at this point. It is her identity.

The old identity could have fallen off and should have if she's been a good wife.

I still think she shouldn't have hid that against the husband.

Like for example. What if a man screwed half the ladies in a particular bar... Then he takes his gf or wife into the bar and these ladies are coming up. They know the wife is an "outsider" because the husband didn't tell. They get to look at her like they had him before her... She doesn't know, but something feels weird and they are awfully close to him...

It's not right. You tell your significant other, so they aren't blindsided.


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## Thor

Machiavelli said:


> Here's the thing: once the ride has been broken in, you can never really know how many miles the thing has on it. In this case, the odometer was even rolled back. Outright fraud.


One doesn't want to find out many years later that they married the town bicycle (the one everyone took for a ride) when they thought they were getting factory new.


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## Machiavelli

Thor said:


> One doesn't want to find out many years later that they married the town bicycle (the one everyone took for a ride) when they thought they were getting factory new.


That's really not something you even want to think about.


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## Machiavelli

treyvion said:


> I disagree. The her that she is around him, could be HER at this point. It is her identity.
> 
> The old identity could have fallen off and should have if she's been a good wife.
> 
> I still think she shouldn't have hid that against the husband.
> 
> Like for example. What if a man screwed half the ladies in a particular bar... Then he takes his gf or wife into the bar and these ladies are coming up. They know the wife is an "outsider" because the husband didn't tell. They get to look at her like they had him before her... She doesn't know, but something feels weird and they are awfully close to him...
> 
> It's not right. You tell your significant other, so they aren't blindsided.


Here's the thing: in general (note: I'm talking about the fat part of the bell curve and the leading edge, not 100% of women on the earth) women, even most Christian women don't really care about the number of girls her man has been with before her. This is the _preselection_ function in action. On the other hand, men (wittols excepted) have a very strong biological reason to want the number to be zero.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> One doesn't want to find out many years later that they married the town bicycle (the one everyone took for a ride) when they thought they were getting factory new.


Oh, my...


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## LongWalk

When men and women are surveyed about the number sex partners they have had it is well known that women are likely to understate the number. I'll bet they even do it when it is anonymous. Women often see sex as something they give or bestow. They would like it to lead to some positive emotional experience. When it doesn't they may wish to deny it happened.

I suspect men and women class their sexual experiences into all sorts of different categories: 

1) loss of virginity
2) ugly, stupid or strange person, what was I thinking
3) drunk on drugs
4) STR that I wished had continued
5) LTR that I wished had ended sooner or lasted longer or lead to marriage
6) coerced, date raped
7) gave me STD
8) pregnancy disaster
9) safe versus condom free sex
10) vacation sex 

One personal observation: several women I slept actually wanted to talk about their former boyfriends. It felt like they wanted to share that information, not for my benefit, but to unload all their pent up emotions.


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## Machiavelli

LongWalk said:


> When men and women are surveyed about the number sex partners they have had* it is well known that women are likely to understate the number. I'll bet they even do it when it is anonymous. *Women often see sex as something they give or bestow. They would like it to lead to some positive emotional experience. When it doesn't they may wish to deny it happened.


Actually, the greater the anonymity, the higher their body count grows. This has been shown in a couple of studies. I can add some anecdotal to this where a guy found out his wife was on A.M. and had gotten it on with about 25 dudes. He asked her how many men and she was really, truly sure it was just 8, even though she knew he was getting ready to get into her account. She was shocked and appalled to find the true number. This reinforced something I had come to believe already.


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## Thundarr

NovellaBiers said:


> How is she different now then? She is is still the same person. She has not done anything illegal just *living a normal life* and sex belongs to that.
> 
> I don't think the lying was right but seeing nightmares of her having sex with other men over 20 years ago as a teenager before she even knew him? You are making a mountain out of a molehill.


She's not different but the foundation of their trust is different and therefore their relationship is different until they get past it. That's the part he's dealing with IMO even if he doesn't know it yet. You and I both agree (I think) she shouldn't have lied and that the deception is the real problem. Hopefully time will dull the sharpness of him feeling betrayed. I think it's the part that will stick around longer.


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## treyvion

Machiavelli said:


> Actually, the greater the anonymity, the higher their body count grows. This has been shown in a couple of studies. I can add some anecdotal to this where a guy found out his wife was on A.M. and had gotten it on with about 25 dudes. He asked her how many men and she was really, truly sure it was just 8, even though she knew he was getting ready to get into her account. She was shocked and appalled to find the true number. This reinforced something I had come to believe already.


Women will drop one night stands and ones they don't want to remember out of their bodycount...


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## Thundarr

Seems like extremes views on both sides of this.

Yes it was a terrible mistake but it's one that many people make. I suspect she'd do it differently in retrospect. At least I hope so. That's something BBR is probably wrestling with now. He's wondering just how good she can keep secrets. That's a scary thing to wonder about your partner. 

But I don't think it's the type of thing to bring down a marriage by it's self. There are many years that have to be counted for something.


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## larry.gray

treyvion said:


> No. The husband shouldn't have been the "outsider", he should've known and known more about the friends than they know about her and him.


Very, very good point! That goes to primacy with your spouse. Your spouse should know you better than anybody else.


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## Theseus

larry.gray said:


> How exactly is this supposed to help him?
> 
> You're trivializing how he feels. All your post is going to do is incite arguments.


And telling people they won't last on these forums long isn't going to incite arguments?


----------



## Theseus

SimplyAmorous said:


> Theseus is never going to "get it' ...now he wants to equate kissing with intercourse.. He is a "PLAIN SEX, SEX IS JUST SEX, just like kissing" man!


No, that's not the point I was making at all. The point is, to those who keep saying the *lie* is the real issue here, then what if the lie was only about kissing someone else before marriage? What if the lie was about never having tasted alcohol before? What if this lie was about never having a boyfriend before? Would that be just as serious?

The point is, I just don't think this lie is the real issue here, because I don't think anyone would be so up in arms if the lie was about anything other than sex. I just think many people in this thread have an unhealthy view about it. Understand that?


----------



## Theseus

Machiavelli said:


> I would say reinstating traditional marriage ages would solve the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> False rape claim.
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm, no. OP got treated to the old "bait and switch." That's illegal. While the OP may have some odd or constrained views on sex, we don't really know what the OP's lying wife was into, since he didn't say. Trains, dogs, who knows? But it doesn't matter, OP was looking for a diamond and he got a rock.



Machiavelli, outside the Middle East, I don't see attitudes like yours very much. Let's just say you and I are at polar opposites on this one. 

I have a question though. Can you honestly say you have never lied to your spouse about anything?


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

lifeistooshort said:


> Well if you had known this about her back then would you have dumped her? You make a point to mention that she was a 10, so clearly that had an impact on you. .Would you have passed up this 10? .As far as other guys pleasuring her, you give them way too much credit; young women in their teens don't get as much out of sex as you think. A lot of them, particularly the really beautiful ones, have been sent the message their whole life that they're beautiful and that's their value. Even you, you describe her as a 10 but nothing else; not that she was smart, wonderful, or caring. Not that you didn't think those things but clearly her beauty was what stood out, so often women like that will be very sexual because in their minds what else do they offer? But young women usually aren't comfortable in their own skin and don't know what they want, so sex doesn't do a lot until we hit our 30's.
> As far as any men before you, none of those idiots are anything compared to you; you've been
> her loving husband for 20 years! Don't give men from 20 years ago so much power; I'm on my second marriage and I had kids with the ex, and a past before him, but as far as I'm concerned nothing mattered before my hb. I bet your wife feels the same way, though I'm a little perplexed as to why she would tell you now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I would have known the truth about her past back then, I would have passed up this "10" in a heartbeat and she knew this. Her looks initially attracted me to to her but her caring nature, her unconditional loving ways and she's quite frankly one of the most down to earth and smartest human beings that I have ever met which is part of why it makes it so hard to conceive what she was capable of before she met me. I learned of her sexual past from a third party and confronted her the same day. At first, she would not admit it and then she began to ask me, "Who told you?" After 15 minutes of denials, she broke down and confessed. As I listened to her, I felt as if I had been with a stranger for the past 20 years of my life. I am still so deep in love with her but I really don't want to dwell in this sadness too much longer. I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman. I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

6301 said:


> So what are you going to do? Are you going to scrap your 20 year marriage? Has she ever given you any reason to believe that she's been unfaithful?


She's NEVER given me a single reason in 20 years to question her in anyway and I know 100% that she's been completely faithful to me without a doubt. As dirty as her past is, I know that she has the cleanest soul that I have ever known. I have made it clear to her that her love & our marriage mean everything to me but my only problem is getting rid of these thoughts that just won't get out of my head.


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## ForBetter

Now there is truth between you...a chance for your marriage to become better than it ever could have been with this old secret in the way.

Having an affair would not make you feel better about anything. You would only lose respect for yourself. Please don't act out your distress-- talk it out instead, with counselors.


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## EntirelyDifferent

If she's never been anything to you but a wonderful, caring wife, how is cheating on her going to solve anything?

If you don't want to be with her because of this, do the honorable thing and divorce her. But sleeping around just because she did stuff you don't approve of BEFORE you met isn't going to fix this or help your mental state.


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## Broken.Beyond.Repair

F-102 said:


> How have things been between you two since the "D-day"? How has she been reacting to you?


Since "D-day" she's been treating me like a baby. She's been showering me with compliments like "handsome" , "sexy" etc... She's been waiting on me hand and foot doing anything and everything she can. Here is a text that she sent to me while I was at work:

*It's funny how I still get butterflies in my stomach when I think about us. I am falling all over in love with you. My heart goes fast when I think about u. It feels like when I first met you for the first time. I feel all wooozy inside. Can't wait to see you tonight. It feels like Heaven in your arms. I love you too much!!!*

She has been calling and texting me constantly as if we were teenagers again. She has been wearing sexy lingire for me for the past week and given me the wildest sex imaginable but as we were having sex, the thoughts kept bothering me. I'm trying hard to participate in our marriage but I feel like a part of me died that day.


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## Thundarr

Theseus said:


> No, that's not the point I was making at all. The point is, to those who keep saying the *lie* is the real issue here, then what if the lie was only about kissing someone else before marriage? What if the lie was about never having tasted alcohol before? What if this lie was about never having a boyfriend before? Would that be just as serious?
> 
> The point is, I just don't think this lie is the real issue here, because I don't think anyone would be so up in arms if the lie was about anything other than sex. I just think many people in this thread have an unhealthy view about it. Understand that?


Absolutely to me the deception is the lasting problem and not her history. She cheated him of choice by presenting a false truth regarding something she knew would be a possible deal breaker. It turns out that being honest up front almost always makes is a small issue and lying about is almost always makes is a big issue. I respect your opinion Theseus but you should know honesty is high on the list of needs for many people. There's no way to present a falsity to a partner and it not be a real betrayal.


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## 2ntnuf

Did you ever think of doing things with her that she's never experienced before? Maybe starting your own little list of secret accomplishments? I mean, what if you had a bunch of things you could think of when these thoughts come to you, about your time with your wife? 

It was just a thought that popped into my head.


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## Thundarr

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> If I would have known the truth about her past back then, I would have passed up this "10" in a heartbeat and she knew this. Her looks initially attracted me to to her but her caring nature, her unconditional loving ways and she's quite frankly one of the most down to earth and smartest human beings that I have ever met which is part of why it makes it so hard to conceive what she was capable of before she met me. I learned of her sexual past from a third party and confronted her the same day. At first, she would not admit it and then she began to ask me, "Who told you?" After 15 minutes of denials, she broke down and confessed. As I listened to her, I felt as if I had been with a stranger for the past 20 years of my life. I am still so deep in love with her but I really don't want to dwell in this sadness too much longer. I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman. I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.


BBR, separate the issues please. Getting even has nothing to do with cheating. She didn't cheat on you dude. She didn't cheat on you. She didn't cheat on you. Now that's been said , what she did was deceive you. She intentionally hid part who she had been. Truthfully she should have either told you point blank or be with someone else who she felt comfortable with telling. Deception is the enemy of relationships.


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## tom67

Thundarr said:


> BBR, separate the issues please. Getting even has nothing to do with cheating. She didn't cheat on you dude. She didn't cheat on you. She didn't cheat on you. Now that's been said , what she did was deceive you. She intentionally hid part who she had been. Truthfully she should have either told you point blank or be with someone else who she felt comfortable with telling. Deception is the enemy of relationships.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
She lied about her past before you. She did not cheat.
What she did was wrong but get some ic asap please.
She sounds like she is trying to be there for you right now.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Thor

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman. I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.


No, it won't solve your problem at all. It will make it worse for you.


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## SimplyAmorous

Theseus said:


> No, that's not the point I was making at all. The point is, to those who keep saying the *lie* is the real issue here, then what if the lie was only about kissing someone else before marriage? What if the lie was about never having tasted alcohol before? What if this lie was about never having a boyfriend before? Would that be just as serious?


Would it be just as serious....well.. in my view of your questions here.....If a person so casually outright LIES over normal dating questions as you list here....then they are surely a suck up and a serial LIAR..at that point...literally nothing that comes forth from their mouth should or could be trusted.... really lies of any nature would not be working for me.. 



> The point is, I just don't think this lie is the real issue here, because I don't think anyone would be so up in arms if the lie was about anything other than sex.* I just think many people in this thread have an unhealthy view about it. Understand that?*


 Well you don't know me..if I catch someone in the smallest of BSing to me...which makes no sense why they are trying to hide something .. that makes mole hills into mountains..... I will think such a person is even MORE of a screw up...and they need tossed. 

Sex is Important [email protected]#$% I believe I understand you it's just as I have been saying all along - you feel we are UPTIGHT, you dismiss our views of sexuality -you just said it here again...*you feel many on this thread have an unhealthy view about sex*....

Now do you really want me tell you what I think of casual sex?? 

We are different...our expectations are different, our boundaries are different... 



> *Can you honestly say you have never lied to your spouse about anything?*


You didn't ask me this... but I don't lie to my husband.... I have a tendency to be on the brutally honest side though he's told me many a times.....he wouldn't change me... he knows he can trust what comes out of my mouth...he'll happily take the good with the "I may need to brace myself" for a moment.


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## Thor

It sounds like a big part of your agony is you feel inferior to her. you're a man and you've slept with fewer people than your wife has. Or perhaps you feel like she knows something which you don't, so you are not up to her level yet. If you sleep with another woman you would gain that secret knowledge and be her equal.

I get the part about the deception. And I get the part above. Realize that one of them is your wife's issue, and the other is your issue.

Your wife has to make amends for her deception. Read the book "After the Affair", it really will help both of you. See a good marriage therapist to work through the trust issue. This is your wife's cargo to haul, making the amends. You have to work with her because you are the one who has lost trust in her.

But you have to come to grips with the difference in experience level. That's your cargo to haul. BTDT, and in some ways you don't ever get over it. With counseling and with time you can knock it down to a minor background issue which you don't think about often.

Even if your wife gives you the green light to go have sex with another woman, don't do it. It is not the cure you are looking for.


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## JCD

Machiavelli said:


> BBR, you were married under false pretenses. Basically, defrauded. Yours is a common problem. I don't know what your religious beliefs are but this experience is usually only a problem for Christian men. You certainly are justified in seeking divorce under any belief system.


Crud! Frozen crud on a cracker.

MOST cultures have a very elevated view of virginity.

Right off the top of my head: Muslim Culture, many African cultures, Chinese culture.

It seems that in his WIDE experience, Machiavelli hasn't heard of 'Honor Killings' where HER family will murder her if she isn't a virgin on her wedding night.

But yeah...only Christian men...sure...


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## 2ntnuf

Thor said:


> It sounds like a big part of your agony is you feel inferior to her. you're a man and you've slept with fewer people than your wife has. Or perhaps you feel like she knows something which you don't, so you are not up to her level yet. If you sleep with another woman you would gain that secret knowledge and be her equal.
> 
> I get the part about the deception. And I get the part above. Realize that one of them is your wife's issue, and the other is your issue.
> 
> Your wife has to make amends for her deception. Read the book "After the Affair", it really will help both of you. See a good marriage therapist to work through the trust issue. This is your wife's cargo to haul, making the amends. You have to work with her because you are the one who has lost trust in her.
> 
> But you have to come to grips with the difference in experience level. That's your cargo to haul. BTDT, and in some ways you don't ever get over it. With counseling and with time you can knock it down to a minor background issue which you don't think about often.
> 
> Even if your wife gives you the green light to go have sex with another woman, don't do it. It is not the cure you are looking for.


I agree with this. I posted about you doing things with her that were your secrets alone. These new things, jut might help you feel better. If you become the best that you can be in sex with your wife, you may feel a little better. 

I do think she betrayed you, but it's not the standard affair type. It still hurts, though. I don't mean to minimize your feelings. 

I do think she will have to make some sort of amends. Although, it sounds like she's been trying. So, what is it you want her to do to make meaningful amends? Are those realistic compared to her, "crime"? I guess this is best worked out in counseling. 

I do think you need counseling. 

I agree with Thor. Infidelity will make your situation a thousand times worse. It will not help your self-esteem. It will only justify that you are an ass, to your wife. She will jump ship and leave you in the dust, if you don't get a grip on this and take some action to get it all straightened out. 

I hope you move on counseling fast. She probably has lots of options. Do you?


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## Cletus

Let's just say the more I read of BBR's responses, the more I understand his wife's choice.


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## larry.gray

Theseus said:


> The point is, I just don't think this lie is the real issue here, because I don't think anyone would be so up in arms if the lie was about anything other than sex. I just think many people in this thread have an unhealthy view about it. Understand that?


What I get is you don't value the pain this guy is feeling. You'd rather belittle those that are capable of understanding where he's coming from than look to help him.


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## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> Let's just say the more I read of BBR's responses, the more I understand his wife's choice.


Then why did she choose him? She had other options if she's as good looking as she says. Her choice was to lie to catch him. That doesn't sound very loving.


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## larry.gray

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman. I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.


If you ever did this, it will go down as one of your deepest regrets of your life. 

You can read many reports from men here who've had a revenge affair when their wife cheated. They universally report that it was exactly that. 

It won't help you one bit, and will hurt a lot.


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## SimplyAmorous

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> *If I would have known the truth about her past back then, I would have passed up this "10" in a heartbeat and she knew this.*


 Yet you say all these wonderful things about her....you know you really put her in an awful position..... I'm gonna have to agree with some of the others....your rigidity was TOO MUCH here...as one who cared myself ....it wouldn't have been the end all...I don't think people should throw Reason to the wind and dismiss all these other wonderful qualities you listed here in a potential partner....

It's so obvious...you came on too strong -and she knew it was LIE or BE DUMPED/ Goodbye forever to the man of her dreams....

Agonizing comes to mind...what some may DO for love....

I would advise any young man in your position to NOT come on this strongly as they are nearly asking to be lied too... except for a handful with impeccable integrity - it's just not a wise way to go.. 

Better to be approachable in all things with a potential partner, if nothing else... so they can feel comfortable to BE who they are, share where they have been ...to avoid this very unfortunate scenario.


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## JCD

larry.gray said:


> What I get is you don't value the pain this guy is feeling. You'd rather belittle those that are capable of understanding where he's coming from than look to help him.


Belittling isn't good. But let's get some perspective here.

He has had a marriage of the ages, to hear him tell the tale. He likes superlatives, our BBR. He's 'broken BEYOND Repair'. She's a TEN. She is PERFECT in every way. 

This black and white thinking is his enemy. Everything is roses or crap for him. The enemy of the good is the perfect.


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## Theseus

Thundarr said:


> I respect your opinion Theseus but you should know honesty is high on the list of needs for many people. There's no way to present a falsity to a partner and it not be a real betrayal.


Oh please let's get off our high horses. There are degrees of lying. They are not all the same. Honesty is important to me too, but I don't think it's reasonable to get extremely upset over small things. For example, I'm not going to freak out if my wife lied to me one time about cheating on her diet and having a bowl of ice cream. I'm sure as heck not going to freak out about something that happened over 20 years ago, before we met, and has absolutely no bearing on events today (except what the OP is creating himself). 



Thundarr said:


> BBR, separate the issues please. Getting even has nothing to do with cheating. She didn't cheat on you dude. She didn't cheat on you. She didn't cheat on you.


On this part, you and I agree. And I would add that even if she did cheat on him, a revenge affair wouldn't be the solution anyway! Either way, it would just make things worse.


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## TopsyTurvy5

Can I ask why was it so important that she was a virgin?


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## JCD

TopsyTurvy5 said:


> Can I ask why was it so important that she was a virgin?


So he doesn't need to worry about his sexual performance not living up to someone else's. He wants to be the only sexual metric she's ever seen. Because his ONLY value to her is how good he is at sex....

Now that isn't so and he has mental images of her imagining her lovers of days gone by as better than him.

Plus he is justifiably worried that her 'one time' was actually 'many times'. So now he wonders if he has to compete with the football team.

He is stuck in the male mindset. Men want sex all the time and will say yes frequently when offered.

So if wifey is a 10 and she gets lots of offers, she MUST have said 'Yes!' a lot of times, Q.E.D.

Except that men are not women and women do not say yes to every offer that comes down the pike.

Yes, he should be upset at her lie. Yes, she needs to grovel a little bit over this (and she appears to be doing just that). Yes, if there are other signs of lies and cheating, he should OBJECTIVELY examine them.

And yes, he should not throw out the babe with the bathwater and get some Perspective and some IC or he is going to ruin a 'marriage for the ages' because he's overly insecure.

I am not sure why he is insecure about a teenaged romp. I very much doubt that a teenager could have rocked her world better than a person with 20 years of history and experience. But if you are worried, BBR, get a book.


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## LongWalk

treyvion said:


> Women will drop one night stands and ones they don't want to remember out of their bodycount...


:iagree: One woman told me that she never had sex with men on the first date, but if she, she would never see them again. In other words, a guy who scored so easily would not be likely to commit to a relationship. He would just come round for sex. She might want sex, too, but she did not want to disconnect the two. Thus, a principle of being loose for a night.

I don't think she was promiscuous. But evolution must have given women an strong desire to pick the right mate because 9 months of pregnancy and a child are a major commitment.

Birth control has changed opportunity but not instinct.


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## NovellaBiers

This thread is basically just another form of slvt shaming. Because she wasn't a virgin she is not a "10" anymore apparently...


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## 2ntnuf

No, it's a compatibility problem. It doesn't matter if she was a virgin or not. They had such different life experience, it's come between them because he didn't know. He feels like he wasn't given the chance to honestly decide if he wanted her, because he was duped. He's not wrong in that. He is letting her past ruin a really great twenty years, though. It's a shame, but lying causes stuff like that sometimes.


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## tryingtobebetter

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> She's NEVER given me a single reason in 20 years to question her in anyway and I know 100% that she's been completely faithful to me without a doubt. As dirty as her past is, I know that she has the cleanest soul that I have ever known. I have made it clear to her that her love & our marriage mean everything to me but my only problem is getting rid of these thoughts that just won't get out of my head.


If she has the cleanest soul you have ever known, then at your time in life you should recognise you are unlikely to meet any one to match her.

Please read again my post earlier in the thread. It is the emotional side of your brain giving you ideas of revenge (which will not help in all likelihood). You need to give yourself time to calm down and see matters rationally.

Do you not see how lucky you are ? You have a '10' throwing herself at you, serving you hand and foot. That is most men's dream fantasy.

Calm down. Give yourself time. This will take months.

And yes, if you can find a good counsellor, go to him.


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## seasalt

If you are having a hard time imagining the guys who came before you twenty years ago, just imagine the guys who would gladly replace you if you push your loving, faithful 10 of a wife away.

Just sayin',

Seasalt


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## JCD

seasalt said:


> If you are having a hard time imagining the guys who came before you twenty years ago, just imagine the guys who would gladly replace you if you push your loving, faithful 10 of a wife away.
> 
> Just sayin',
> 
> Seasalt


More to the point, if you decide you are going to throw her away, what are the chances of you pushing 40 on finding a girl who has only had two partners in her life at this stage of the game?

It's POSSIBLE...and you might even find a 40 year old virgin...but she probably has more issues than a newspaper stand.

Is her replacement going to be any better?

**

Twenty years of marriage and AFTER the vows, you think you are justified to have 'revenge'. Is it 'revenge' or are you taking advantage of the opportunity to spread some seed yourself?

There is nothing to revenge. This was BEFORE you.


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## samyeagar

Theseus said:


> No, that's not the point I was making at all. The point is, to those who keep saying the *lie* is the real issue here, then what if the lie was only about kissing someone else before marriage? What if the lie was about never having tasted alcohol before? What if this lie was about never having a boyfriend before? Would that be just as serious?
> 
> The point is, I just don't think this lie is the real issue here, because I don't think anyone would be so up in arms if the lie was about anything other than sex. I just think many people in this thread have an unhealthy view about it. Understand that?


This is what I was getting at earlier. Everbody keeps coming back to the lie, and I really suspect it is more than just the lie. As I used in my example...what if she had denied ever visiting Paris, and he found out 20 years late she had actually lived there for a few years. Would this be as big of a deal? I highly doubt it. I think in large part, it comes down to the sex, the mind movies, and what others have touched on...him being around other peope who are in the know while he is on the outside. The lie certainly plays into this, but I think it is in part just a rationalization so as not to feel irrational. Look at what people are saying here, and usually do in cases like this. It was jst sex, she married you, she chose you...basically telling the OP he is wrong in how he is feeling, but the lie...people are latching onto that and supporting, justifying his feelings...so no wonder the lie becomes the focal point.

I know in my case, and I suspect it is very similar for others in this situation, that the mind movies are huge. That if the lie came without the movies, it would be realy easy to move on. I have felt everything described here, being the one not in the know, the mind movies, just another guy, nothing special, but I never had the lie, and STILL felt those things. My STBW has been very good at helping me deal with things. Always telling me the truth, making sure I don't walk into a situation where I am not in the know, showing me just how special I am to her, that I am not just another man to her.


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## NovellaBiers

This is clearly an insecurity issue as was demonstrated by OP and another poster in this thread.


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## samyeagar

I posted the above before I had gotten to BBR's reply. So it appears that it is indeed about the mind moveis far more than the lie that he needs to work through, and she appears to be doing everything his wife can think of to help him. It appears that she indeed loves him very much, and still sees the value in him that she did from the very first day.

I am not sure that much beyond time and continued action on her part can help with those mind movies. My discomfort with my STBW's past does not come from a place of insecurity at all. I don't judge her, I don't think any less of her, in fact, intellectually, I feel retty neutral about it, but that doesn't stop the movies from time to time. I knw I am the best she's ever had by a long shot, and she shows me that in word and deed.

I think the best first step for BBR is to work on seperating the rational and irrational thoughts. The rational being the past 20 wonderful years, and the irrational being the mind movies. Once those are seperate, it becomes easier to deal with the issue.


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## samyeagar

NovellaBiers said:


> This is clearly an insecurity issue as was demonstrated by OP and another poster in this thread.


I disagree entirely. It is not about insecurity at all. It seems that the OP is very secure in his relationship. He doesn't have any fear at all that his wife is anything but comletely attracted, in love and devoted to him in every way.

I don't have any insecurity in my relationship with my STBW. She is completely mine in every way, in ways no man has ever had her, and it shows. Still doesn't stop the mind movies from time to time...


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## samyeagar

Of course, now comes the fun part in that anything discussed sexually is going to be seen through a new, less pleasant light. The other night, my STBW showed me an article posted on Facebook about oral sex on women, and she pointed out the fallacy that women are better at giving to women simply because they have the same parts. Mind movie trigger for me as I know she had a few threesomes with other women in an attempt to control her husbands cheating. I drive pretty close to where one of the women live on my way home from work, and triggered the next day.

The thing is, it does get easier with time. What hapened here is that her past, a past she has had years to process and put in her past has become his immediate present. All of it, all at once, and that's a lot to deal with.

BBR, about having an affair...let those felings wash over you. Don't worry about feeling them, but work on controlling them and putting them out of your mind. You know that would violate you at a core level, and you would end up even more broken.

One thing I have learned is that in rash, drastic actions there are always unforseen consequences, unintended effects that are rarely good. Consequences that you never even dreamed of. My STBW did something similar, and it blew up her world. She got what she was after...hurt her ex husband, but it almost cost her her relationship with her daghter, severely damaged her relationship with her son, and she is still dealing with the fall out. To her, the cost was not worth it, and she regrets it.


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## Nucking Futs

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's so obvious...you came on too strong -and she knew it was LIE or BE DUMPED/ Goodbye forever to the man of her dreams....


The woman of his dreams was a virgin. By lying to him to secure the man of her dreams, she denied him the opportunity to find the woman of his dreams.


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## Theseus

Nucking Futs said:


> The woman of his dreams was a virgin. By lying to him to secure the man of her dreams, she denied him the opportunity to find the woman of his dreams.



People keep saying that he thought he married a virgin. That is incorrect. She told him she had sex before. *The lie was that she was raped, not about virginity.*


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## samyeagar

And if you try and have that affair, you'd be so emotionally charged that you most likely wouldn't be able to get it up, and think of how that would feel..


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## samyeagar

Theseus said:


> People keep saying that he thought he married a virgin. That is incorrect. She told him she had sex before.
> 
> *The lie was that she was raped, not about virginity.*


And the issue for the OP is not really about the lie...


----------



## Cletus

larry.gray said:


> Then why did she choose him? She had other options if she's as good looking as she says. Her choice was to lie to catch him. That doesn't sound very loving.


Possibly she made two mistakes at once. Overlooking someone with a huge sexual hangup, and lying about her past.

You know, the sort of human error that makes this forum so popular.

When people use the term bait and switch around here, how often is the outcome 20 years of magnificent marriage and sex with a "10"?


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## Cletus

Hope you have a sense of humor, BBR. Perhaps you could use a laugh right now.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/01/24/opinion/food-chains-extra-virgin-suicide.html


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## SimplyAmorous

Nucking Futs said:


> *The woman of his dreams was a virgin. By lying to him to secure the man of her dreams, she denied him the opportunity to find the woman of his dreams.*


 Believe me , I get this....I am trying to see both sides...Our oldest son's ideal is this too, and I've warned him THIS very scenario could play out for him if he is not careful & shows a strong rigidity here too fast ...I don't want him passing on a good woman because of it.. or her feeling backed into a corner of "He will never accept me"....

I shared this story with him -found this shortly after I came here... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ifes-sexual-past-lies-about-being-virgin.html ... We had an in depth talk about these things... and ya know ...he agreed with me... he could see how taking too harsh of a stand could set a girl up for lying...and he *wouldn't* want this.......

He went further ...and changed his thinking also...it's about WHERE she is *NOW*....her beliefs/ values NOW...when they get together... *not where she has been.*.. of course it'd still be his ideal.... but he is realistic..has his feet on the ground... of how unlikely this will be to find in today's society.......and would not want to pass up on a good woman that could make a wonderful wife -despite something she could not take back...

He is a christian & maybe rare, but believes strongly in waiting till Marriage (many on here would find that laughable.. but that's fine...he is actually very secure in himself)....

So I am speaking out of a little more than friendly advice here..it is something I would advise my own sons... and true, if he still felt as strongly as he did ...after he was more approachable... to here the truth (not having her KNOW that SHE WOULD BE BANISHED FOREVER) - at least the truth is more likely to come forth while dating.. I do believe what they say , that men UP their #'s and women generally DOWN theirs - as to be more accepted by the opposite sex. 

I really feel we need to BE who we are and come forth with the truth -only in this..lies "TRUE acceptance" of another anyway.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Indeed I just now noticed she did not even claim she was a virgin. *OP knew he was not marrying a virgin beforehand*.

Why are everyone even discussing about this?


----------



## Thundarr

Theseus said:


> Oh please let's get off our high horses. There are degrees of lying. They are not all the same. Honesty is important to me too, but I don't think it's reasonable to get extremely upset over small things. For example, I'm not going to freak out if my wife lied to me one time about cheating on her diet and having a bowl of ice cream. I'm sure as heck not going to freak out about something that happened over 20 years ago, before we met, and has absolutely no bearing on events today (except what the OP is creating himself).


There is no horse. You find it trivial that BBR's wife lied to him about something important to his belief system. A lie specifically to change his perception of her and then she kept that secret years. Telling those of us who think "deception is a big deal" that we are on high horses speaks volumes about how you value other peoples opinions. It makes sense then that you don't have a clue as to why her fooling him in this way was selfish and wrong on her part in a big way.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

NovellaBiers said:


> Indeed I just now noticed she did not even claim she was a virgin. *OP knew he was not marrying a virgin beforehand*.
> 
> Why are everyone even discussing about this?


You completely understand the situation entirely. The OP wanted to marry someone who felt sex was a sacred act between husband and wife only. It had nothing to do with whether she was a virgin or not. Granted, having this view AND being a virgin go hand in hand (they're NOT mutually exclusive). Therein comes the lie about being raped. If the OP's wife NEVER had intercourse, but she had oral sex with a lot of guys, the OP would be in the same boat today. So it's not about being a virgin technically, it's the perception of how his wife viewed sex WHILE THEY WERE COURTING. The truth is, his wife did not view sex as a sacred act between married people. 

Sure, she could have told him the truth but then explained how she regretted giving herself away and "now" realizes that sex is sacred. However, in real life actions speak louder than words. So she ended up having sex for an extended period of time with one (maybe more?) boyfriends before the OP. Does that sound like a woman who viewed sex in the same way as the OP - that it is sacred? By her actions, of course not. 

The bottom line is how important is this to the OP? Before you guys rail over the OP throwing away 20 years of bliss, you need to consider how seriously he takes his faith. People always have circuit breakers in all things. If this is his conviction, then it might be his circuit breaker. It will be up to him to weigh this and decide what he wants to do. One thing I know for sure if I was in his shoes. My wife MUST figure out a way to make this up to me, because frankly living a lie for 20 years is HARD TO STOMACH. JMHO.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NovellaBiers said:


> Indeed I just now noticed she did not even claim she was a virgin. *OP knew he was not marrying a virgin beforehand*.


 Being raped = a victim..something was taken from her against her will... many do not see this in the same light as willfully engaging in casual sex ...which speaks to one's specific views/ beliefs on sex & what it represents to them.... which can render a couple incompatible ... it is a violation that was should have never been.. some still consider these virgins also. 

I am beginning to wonder about this story, BBR is not sharing any new information or detail...did he question the rape story -who when, why...wasn't he ANGRY as hell l.. and wouldn't their sex life has suffered some trauma if this was true... he never wondered...

He has not spoken anything really on how she is dealing -some details to go on -despite repeated asking.. if he could do it all over again, would he have dumped her..no answer... .run away thread.. with no poster -is he just playing a game with us.... come on BBR...up the details.. show yourself.


----------



## NovellaBiers

SimplyAmorous said:


> Being raped = a victim..something was taken from her against her will... many do not see this in the same light as willfully engaging in casual sex ...which speaks to one's specific views on sex... and whether a couple will be compatible or not.. it is a violation that was should have never been.. some still consider these virgins also.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder about this story, BBR is not sharing any new information or detail...did he question the rape story -who when, why...wasn't he ANGRY as hell l.. and wouldn't their sex life has suffered some trauma if this was true... he never wondered...
> 
> He has not spoken anything really on how she is dealing -some details to go on -despite repeated asking.. if he could do it all over again, would he have dumped her..no answer... .run away thread.. with no poster -is he just playing a game with us.... come on BBR...up the details.. show yourself.


There is no mention of her having casual sex in OP's story. Obviously they are very compatible if she's been the perfect wife for 20 years don't you think? But now she suddenly isn't anymore. :scratchhead:

What do the people who insist on virginity do if they get divorced and are seeking a new spouse? No one will accept you because you're not a virgin anymore, AKA Higher Standards, right? On the other hand you can't accept anyone over the age of, say 18 because most are not virgins at that age anymore.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

NovellaBiers said:


> On the other hand you can't accept anyone over the age of, say 18 because most are not virgins at that age anymore.


I guess you could look in another country if it mattered that much to you. Behaviour patterns seem to vary quite a lot around the world.


----------



## Machiavelli

BBR

Any marriage contract (vows) you made to your wife was induced by fraudulent misrepresentation. From Cornell Law School website:

_Under contract law, a plaintiff can recover against a defendant on the grounds of fraudulent misrepresentation if (1) a representation was made; (2) that was false; (3) that when made, the representation was known to be false or made recklessly without knowledge of its truth; (4) that it was made with the intention that the plaintiff rely on it; (5) that the plaintiff did rely on it; and (6) that the plaintiff suffered damages as a result._

So, there you go; your case meets all 6 tests. So, you're certainly justified to seek redress.

That can be via divorce or some other method that you choose. But, whatever you decide you need in order to be made whole, you need to be upfront with your wife about what the payback is going to be. 

Here are some alternatives to divorce:

If you're a Christian or a Jew, you might say, "We are now reverting to Biblical marriage. My two new wives arrive tomorrow."

If you're a pagan, you can say, "We are now reverting to pagan Greek marriage. My three new concubines arrive tomorrow."

Or you can just tell her, "The old contract is null, the new contract is I do who I want, when I want. You stay home."


----------



## Thundarr

NovellaBiers said:


> Obviously they are very compatible if she's been the perfect wife for 20 years don't you think? But now she suddenly isn't anymore. :scratchhead:


I agree a lot with this part NovellaBiers. They were compatible and they still are. It'll take him a little time to get past the hurt of her deceiving him but then he'll see that twenty years of happy marriage trumps the mistake. Still though It's not a trivial insignificant mistake. It was a big one. A little bit of honesty early on would have prevent this altogether.


----------



## Theseus

Thundarr said:


> There is no horse. You find it trivial that BBR's wife lied to him about something important to his belief system.


Actually, *YOU* said I found it "trivial". I never used that word. I only said you have to put these things in the proper perspective, that's all. And that's not unreasonable. The OP is describing severe depression, suicidal thoughts and plans to have a revenge affair. That's way over the top for finding out your wife had consensual sex 20 years ago before you even met her, and I'm not going to pretend otherwise just to humor him. 



> _you don't have a clue as to why her fooling him in this way was selfish and wrong on her part in a big way_.


I addressed the OP's concerns here, and I agree he needs help. But I'm not going to give his anxieties more fuel by telling him how horrible his wife was. That's your solution? Exactly how does that help him now?


----------



## Theseus

Machiavelli said:


> Here are some alternatives to divorce:
> 
> If you're a Christian or a Jew, you might say, "We are now reverting to Biblical marriage. My two new wives arrive tomorrow."
> 
> If you're a pagan, you can say, "We are now reverting to pagan Greek marriage. My three new concubines arrive tomorrow."
> 
> Or you can just tell her, "The old contract is null, the new contract is I do who I want, when I want. You stay home."


:scratchhead: Why are you bringing religion into this? Not to mention there are far less extreme remedies available!!

Or is this major sarcasm, and I'm just not clued in?


----------



## JCD

Theseus said:


> :scratchhead: Why are you bringing religion into this? Not to mention there are far less extreme remedies available!!
> 
> Or is this major sarcasm, and I'm just not clued in?


Mach has an issue with religion, particularly Christianity.


----------



## JCD

Thundarr said:


> I agree a lot with this part NovellaBiers. They were compatible and they still are. It'll take him a little time to get past the hurt of her deceiving him but then he'll see that twenty years of happy marriage trumps the mistake. Still though It's not a trivial insignificant mistake. It was a big one. A little bit of honesty early on would have prevent this altogether.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but a bit of honesty earlier would have lead to them never being together in the first place.

Maybe in some alternate reality, he turns his snooty nose up at the honest version of this woman and goes for Abigail, who made him miserable for the next twenty years.

Just something to think about.


----------



## Machiavelli

Theseus said:


> :scratchhead: Why are you bringing religion into this? Not to mention there are far less extreme remedies available!!


Well, for one, the whole legal operation of monogamous Western marriage has as its ultimate source Greece and Rome, via the good old Roman Catholic Church, as modified by the C of E in the case of the English speaking world.

Now, who in the Anglosphere worries about virginity in this day and age if they aren't a Christian or an Orthodox Jew? 

Perhaps someone who is worried about getting d!ck cancer from an HPV infection his fiancé picked up at the swinger's club?

If he just wanted to break in virgins, you certainly don't need to be married to do that.



Theseus said:


> Or is this major sarcasm, and I'm just not clued in?


Affirmative.


----------



## JCD

Plan 9 from OS said:


> The bottom line is how important is this to the OP? Before you guys rail over the OP throwing away 20 years of bliss, you need to consider how seriously he takes his faith. People always have circuit breakers in all things. If this is his conviction, then it might be his circuit breaker. It will be up to him to weigh this and decide what he wants to do. One thing I know for sure if I was in his shoes. My wife MUST figure out a way to make this up to me, because frankly living a lie for 20 years is HARD TO STOMACH. JMHO.


You are correct. It is perfectly valid for him to hold to whatever values he wants and no one should ding him on that.

However it is also a trope of fiction that a man mindlessly holding to his principles can cause himself a tragedy.

From what I recall (and yes, I will inject a bit of religion here) if the OP is a Christian, he might want to think less of 'purity' at this point and focus more on forgiveness...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NovellaBiers said:


> There is no mention of her having casual sex in OP's story. Obviously they are very compatible if she's been the perfect wife for 20 years don't you think? But now she suddenly isn't anymore. :scratchhead:
> 
> What do the people who insist on virginity do if they get divorced and are seeking a new spouse? No one will accept you because you're not a virgin anymore, AKA Higher Standards, right? *On the other hand you can't accept anyone over the age of, say 18 because most are not virgins at that age anymore.*


Ist I want to say I feel BBR =









But I'll take the time and answer your question in the eyes I see it... I feel when we are young, in our teens, we have TIME on our side to dream for that one special Romance/"sex is sacred " / saving ourselves relationship... if this is OUR DREAM...(Romantics are generally geared this way --but do they have the discipline to hold out & wait for LOVE & commitment, many succumb -and it's surely understandable.. LUST is powerful and electric!)...

I was a girl who wanted to marry YOUNG... I wanted to grow with my husband..have children younger too (No regrets...I married at 22).. I wasn't the partying type...I knew what I wanted to a T....

When I found my husband, he was geared as me.....Maybe we were just LUCKY... NOW.. having said this.. lets say I didn't meet this wonderful guy...but a bunch of horny toads who wanted to "test drive" me.... I'd hold out for so long, tell them to hit the road (I had a boundary at intercourse)...but this would start waning on me -maybe if I hit age 21 ish with no real prospects ...being dumped time & time & time again over my sexual views.... .I'd start loosing HOPE in one of those honorable men... 

And basically I'd have to get the hell over myself and kiss my dreams GOODBYE cause I'd feel like I was missing a vital part of living not enjoying sex....time to change course...

I often FEEL my husband spared me this fate, given the way so many men talk on this forum , after all I would have been looked upon as a woman with "hangup's" , "pedestalizing sex"...throw her back! she must be a religious prude!.... 

BUt yeah..after a certain age, it just becomes WEIRD...the 30 yr old virgin is not attractive, ...we are supposed to lust for intimacy...this is a huge part of us.. it's just I believed in specific boundaries ..... I figure there is no rush in our teens to jump in any sacks.. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## sparkyjim

After reading through this whole thread I am of the opinion that the OP backed himself into a corner with his dogmatic beliefs about virginity and she found some wiggle room and got around him. 

Gee, let's think about this... a male, close minded about female sexual activity.... hmmm...THAT has never happened before.

She was young when she made those decisions. I would give her a pass, myself. I don't know that I have ever expected someone I was with to be a virgin. As I recall from back then we used to think that having a virgin was not all that much fun.

I think the OP's wife is a good woman. I think she is better than a 10. But I think that the OP is too black and white in his thinking and will probably allow this disclosure to ruin the relationship he has with her.


----------



## JCD

Machiavelli said:


> If he just wanted to break in virgins, you certainly don't need to be married to do that.


True...but he better be very rigid on checking ID for birth dates.


----------



## 2ntnuf

JCD said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but a bit of honesty earlier would have lead to them never being together in the first place.
> 
> Maybe in some alternate reality, he turns his snooty nose up at the honest version of this woman and goes for Abigail, who made him miserable for the next twenty years.
> 
> Just something to think about.


BBR,

Read this again and again. Then, go get some counseling, immediately.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I don't think most on here fully grasp the viewpoint of a Christian who takes his/her faith VERY seriously. Think about this: If you were a hardcore believer, and you understand that 60, 70, 80 or even 100 years of life on earth is equivalent to a gnat in the universe when you consider that EVERYTHING is geared towards the afterlife, it puts a whole new perspective on the OP's situation.


----------



## JCD

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I don't think most on here fully grasp the viewpoint of a Christian who takes his/her faith VERY seriously. Think about this: If you were a hardcore believer, and you understand that 60, 70, 80 or even 100 years of life on earth is equivalent to a gnat in the universe when you consider that EVERYTHING is geared towards the afterlife, it puts a whole new perspective on the OP's situation.


Why? Is he going to Hell for not marrying a virgin? Does one lie BEFORE 20 years of going to Church with him suddenly make her a pagan?

I get how it violated what he wanted. I do. I really do. I get his mental movies. He is hurt. But banging someone else certainly isn't a 'Christian' response to this.

Divorce her (stupid) or

Forgive her (much more in keeping with his avowed principles)


----------



## NovellaBiers

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'd hold out for so long, tell them to hit the road (*I had a boundary at intercourse*)...


I knew it. You know sex is not defined as having intercourse anymore. IF you had oral, digital/manual etc. sex before that, you were not a virgin actually.


----------



## pink_lady

Machiavelli said:


> Now, who in the Anglosphere worries about virginity in this day and age if they aren't a Christian or an Orthodox Jew?
> 
> Perhaps someone who is worried about getting d!ck cancer from an HPV infection his fiancé picked up at the swinger's club?


Something like 90% of the sexually active public has HPV. Just sayin'.


----------



## pidge70

NovellaBiers said:


> I knew it. You know sex is not defined as having intercourse anymore. IF you had oral, digital/manual etc. sex before that, you were not a virgin actually.


From Dictionary.com
 
vir·gin
[vur-jin] 
noun
1.
a person who has never had sexual intercourse.


----------



## Machiavelli

JCD said:


> True...but he better be very rigid on checking ID for birth dates.


I meant back in the day, whenever that was. In my day, it wasn't much of a problem and it was a one way street.


----------



## Machiavelli

pink_lady said:


> Something like 90% of the sexually active public has HPV. Just sayin'.


And maybe that's why he was looking for someone who wasn't sexually active. He hasn't said why he wanted a virgin, exactly, but that's his business.


----------



## pidge70

*This*



> Originally Posted by Broken.Beyond.Repair
> I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman. I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.


*Does not match this*



> I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. I am not some disgusting animal.


----------



## JCD

Machiavelli said:


> And maybe that's why he was looking for someone who wasn't sexually active. He hasn't said why he wanted a virgin, exactly, but that's his business.


Who heard of HPV twenty years ago?


----------



## Accipiter777

Your wifes past is not whats destroying your peace of mind...
YOU are destroying YOUR OWN peace of mind with her past.


----------



## pink_lady

You are in pain, so feel the pain. But at some point, agonizing over it and creating your own drama to star in (suicide, cheating etc.) becomes self-indulgent and a waste of precious life.

Get some perspective by reading other people's stories that are 1,000 times worse than this one. Go out and help people in your community who have nothing. 

Then go to joint and/or individual counseling. Either the fact that your wife lied about something important 20 years ago is a dealbreaker now, or it isn't. You're the only one that can answer that question.

You may find that a therapist can help you to see your wife as a human- not a pristine angel in white, not a wanton devil in red. Just a person.


----------



## 2ntnuf

pink_lady said:


> You are in pain, so feel the pain. But at some point, agonizing over it and creating your own drama to star in (suicide, cheating etc.) becomes self-indulgent and a waste of precious life.
> 
> Get some perspective by reading other people's stories that are 1,000 times worse than this one. Go out and help people in your community who have nothing.
> 
> Then go to joint and/or individual counseling. Either the fact that your wife lied about something important 20 years ago is a dealbreaker now, or it isn't. You're the only one that can answer that question.


I agree.


----------



## Coffee Amore

NovellaBiers said:


> I knew it. You know sex is not defined as having intercourse anymore. IF you had oral, digital/manual etc. sex before that, you were not a virgin actually.





pidge70 said:


> From Dictionary.com
> 
> vir·gin
> [vur-jin]
> noun
> 1.
> a person who has never had sexual intercourse.


That sounds like the Bill Clinton definition of sex. He had oral sex with Monica Lewinsky, but it wasn't "sex" because there wasn't any vaginal penetration? :scratchhead:

To me oral, anal, digital ...that equals sex.


----------



## sparkyjim

> *This*
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Broken.Beyond.Repair
> I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman. I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.
> *Does not match this
> *
> Quote:
> I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. I am not some disgusting animal.


Not only doesn't it match... but I find it a bit disturbing, and maybe the tip of the iceberg as to why the OP is so upset at the revelation that *HIS* wife could willingly have sex with "disgusting animals..."


----------



## larry.gray

JCD said:


> Belittling isn't good. But let's get some perspective here.
> 
> He has had a marriage of the ages, to hear him tell the tale. He likes superlatives, our BBR. He's 'broken BEYOND Repair'. She's a TEN. She is PERFECT in every way.
> 
> This black and white thinking is his enemy. Everything is roses or crap for him. The enemy of the good is the perfect.


:iagree:

Mocking the guy and his views won't help. Explaining things and showing some compassion to what the guy is going through will.


----------



## larry.gray

JCD said:


> More to the point, if you decide you are going to throw her away, what are the chances of you pushing 40 on finding a girl who has only had two partners in her life at this stage of the game?


He didn't offer up a count, but his post made it sound like she was FAR more experienced than just one before him.


----------



## 2ntnuf

sparkyjim said:


> Not only doesn't it match... but I find it a bit disturbing, and maybe the tip of the iceberg as to why the OP is so upset at the revelation that *HIS* wife could willingly have sex with "disgusting animals..."


Jealousy rears it's ugly head. I think he's in conflict with his own morals, which were not his decision. They were instilled in him and now he is conflicted because those moral beliefs are in direct opposite of his natural desires and society's beliefs. 

Can you imagine being trapped like that, within your own mind? The issue still exists, though. She took away his choice when she lied. He was probably on the fence and would have tried out other ways of sexual gratification with different women. However, one came along when he was almost convinced there were really none out there. He believed her and this is the issue, isn't it? How would anyone feel under these circumstances? Just think about it. Ultimate betrayal comes to mind.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

NovellaBiers said:


> I knew it. You know sex is not defined as having intercourse anymore. IF you had oral, digital/manual etc. sex before that, you were not a virgin actually.


Well the French have a word for this - demi-vierge - which translates as half-virgin.


----------



## larry.gray

NovellaBiers said:


> There is no mention of her having casual sex in OP's story. Obviously they are very compatible if she's been the perfect wife for 20 years don't you think? But now she suddenly isn't anymore. :scratchhead:.


Most people here are on the same page. They're hopeful they can work this out, because they've clearly had a good mariage by BBR's description.

So what's your advice? You appear to want to shame and belittle him and others who understand his pain. Is that going to help him?



NovellaBiers said:


> What do the people who insist on virginity do if they get divorced and are seeking a new spouse? No one will accept you because you're not a virgin anymore, AKA Higher Standards, right? On the other hand you can't accept anyone over the age of, say 18 because most are not virgins at that age anymore.


You get to the crux of his problem. 20 years later he can't dump her and find another. 20 years ago he could have. She's taken his choice away.

Now he's got to make the best of it, and I think the best is to stay together.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NovellaBiers said:


> I knew it. You know sex is not defined as having intercourse anymore. IF you had oral, digital/manual etc. sex before that, you were not a virgin actually.


There are a variety of views on this... Tradition is more intercourse related (Penis in Vagina) ..but yes.. the word has been redefined given our casual sex climate today.. ..Each of us is likely to settle on our own interpretation.... and that's fine...you are entitled to your opinion... but I am as well.. 

I know one thing.. Most red blooded young men are not going to settle on Heavy Petting with a woman but throw her to the curb so to equate one on the same bar as the other -as much as we are put down for this boundary... ...I'm going to call







on that...

We never touched oral sex till after we were married. 

A post on another thread


> Ok...I did some research...for definitions, for interpretations , Traditional and Modern ..of said *"virginity"*...
> 
> 
> Taken from Virginity - Wikipedia
> 
> 1. *The traditional view* is that virginity is only lost through vaginal penetration by the penis, consensual or non-consensual, and that acts of oral sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation or other forms of non-penetrative sex do not result in loss of virginity. A person who engages in such acts with no history of having engaged in vaginal intercourse is often regarded among heterosexuals and researchers as "technically a virgin"....
> 
> Go ask Alice gave a variety of views.... Definition of virgin? | Go Ask Alice!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frustrating as it may be, the simplicity of your question belies the complex definition of the term "virgin."
> 
> *1.* To some, a virgin is someone who hasn't had sexual intercourse (that is, penis-to-vagina intercourse).
> 
> *2. *To others, a virgin is a person who has not engaged in any intimate acts, including deep kissing, genital touching, and oral, vaginal, or anal sex.
> 
> *3. * Still others may allow certain intimacies, like kissing and touching below the belt, while excluding other sex acts.
> 
> *4.* Some people believe they are a virgin until they have sex with someone of the opposite sex, while many believe that people who exclusively have same-sex partners can and do lose their virginity.
> 
> *5.* Finally, some believe that people who have been sexually assaulted, but have not had consensual sex, are still virgins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the variation? Definitions of virginity are often deeply personal and stem from religious, cultural, historical, and family influences that emphasize different values. Some people want to remain a virgin for religious or cultural reasons, some relate the concept of purity to being a virgin, others simply don't want to have sex..... I agree with Alice's words here ...it can be deeply personal to what it means to us ...the why, for what reasons we wait for intercourse....and TRUE...there is a handful of ways to view the term, or discredit it as some wish....feeling such women are no different from those who engage in PIV sex... One thing not addressed in any of these definitions was the whole component of "are they in love/ committed to each other" ?? ...
> 
> So we have the more Traditional definitions (casual sex was not the norm back then)...to how Modern Society is redefining these meanings due to these effects....read an article today that states there is no such thing.. .it's all A BIG LIE...like the term should just go
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... Interesting....so it may be a " " on this one... .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Found this on a forum...just a Posters thoughts on some of the differences..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1. **Super Duper Virgins* ...
> Straight out of the 1950s and 1960s, the super duper virgin is the quintessential untouched, unsullied forbidden fruit (namely the cherry) that all would love to pop. Such virgins have never even kissed a man, let alone played with his flute. Now it’s an accepted fact that such women maintain their virginal state either out of choice or out of compulsion.
> 
> So if you happen to be dating a hardcore virgin who hasn’t allowed you to come any closer than letting you hold her hand then you what you need is a lot of patience ……or a wedding ring.
> 
> *Advice*: Date a super duper virgin, only and only if you have made up your mind to marry her.
> 
> *2.* *Super virgins* ....These virginal wonders have had a few boyfriends but never allowed them to prod her in any of her orifices. But here’s a twist. She has engaged in some pretty heavy kissing and cuddling a couple of lucky guys got to caress her breast when opportunity presented itself. So if you play the part of a nice caring boyfriend for long enough you will in due course get the opportunity to explore her uncharted waters.
> 
> *Advice*: You can have nice good time with her relishing the soft-core action, while preparing her all the while for the imminent no holds barred .
> 
> *3.* *Adventurous Virgins* ....Okay, you will enjoy this one. These are virgins who have allowed themselves to be coaxed into giving their boyfriends and occasional oral and also let him to finger her as a special treat.
> 
> Technically speaking, as long as they have not experienced THAT, they are virgins. But what about the experience she has gained. If she squirms and cries when your insert junior, but has no compunctions in playing on it like a pro, can she really be classified as a virgin. It’s really your call.
> 
> *Advice*: Think about it from the point of view of a recruiter interviewing a bunch of people. Would you rather hire an absolute fresher with no experience whatsoever or someone with several years of experience? Or would you rather go for someone who has worked as an intern at a couple of places but is yet to collect her first pay cheque. Some one who can be moulded and guided. Some who will do exactly as she is taught? To each his own!
> 
> *4.* *The Lying Virgin*....There are some lucky women, whose vaginas if they don’t have sex for while, shrink back to their normal size. So if these women don’t engage in regular intercourse can easily pass the virginity test with flying colors, for there is a fair chance that they will bleed as well.
> There is absolutely no way you can be sure that the woman you are bedding is actually a virgin or she is just faking it.
> 
> *Advice*: Any which way, virginity as a concept is outdated and overrated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Planned Parenthood Defined...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is Virginity? - Planned Parenthood...*Who's a virgin, and who’s not?*
> 
> Most people would say that a virgin is someone who's never had sex — and by "sex," they often mean penetration of the vagina by the penis. This dictionary definition sounds simple enough, but it leaves a whole bunch of people out of the picture.
> 
> There are a lot of straight people who don’t think of themselves as virgins because they’ve had lots of other kinds of sex, like oral sex and anal sex. And then there are all the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people who may never have penile-vaginal sex, but who hardly think of themselves as virgins.
> 
> Many people define sex in broader terms.
> 
> *** For some, "sex" means vaginal, oral, or anal sex...
> 
> *** while for others, it could mean mutual masturbation, manual stimulation (“hand job”), dry humping, or using sex toys to penetrate the vagina or anus. Lots of people feel that they "lose it" the first time they share an intimate sexual experience with someone else — not simply the first time penetration happens.
> 
> *** Some also believe that people have to give consent to lose their virginity — that virgins who are raped, for example, do not lose their virginity.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then we have the "Technical" virgins...Urban Dictionary is already on that ... Technical virgin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1.* A technical virgin is a girl who has been fvcked up her a$$, but not in her poon-tang, leaving them technically a virgin still.
> 
> *2.* A supposed "loophole" way for Christian girls to have anal and oral sex but remain "pure" and still call themselves a "virgin". Ridiculous and hypocritical, some girls who are only technically virgins themselves look down on other girls who have vaginal sex before marriage, even though they have let a guy put his penis in their a$$.
> 
> *3. * A man/woman, who by definition is a virgin due to non-existence of sexual intercourse in their life, but who has otherwise sexually gratified the other gender (or the same gender) with the use of their hands, mouth, or buttocks.
> 
> *4.* When a girl has been told all her life by her friends and family that sex is bad and unnatural... and she has a boyfriend who wants sex... she usually takes the easy way out by doing everything except the actual act. This usually means the said boyfriends penis will go in her hands, up her ass, and in her mouth, anything to get the boy to pleasure her back. All women are weak. They know they cant call themselves virgins, so they go by this term, always using that little loophole to get the pleasure they desire.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: Wife's past destroying my peace of mind...*



2ntnuf said:


> ***Usually, we trust ourselves when we can't trust others. Take both away, and it's a disaster.***
> 
> He needs to see a therapist to help him trust himself first, then, if he can do what you and most others suggest, he can learn to trust her again.
> 
> <snip> And now, he's wondering if he is good enough for her.
> 
> So yeah, drop it and move on? No freakin' way that will happen. None. He has to get therapy, now. He has to become a new man who believes in himself or his marriage is doomed. Don't believe me? This has fundamentally changed how he thinks about himself. I bet he has a hard time looking his children in the eyes. It has less to do with the sex and the number of partners than what he believes about himself being, "the man", who won a prize and has something no one else could have.
> 
> Delusional thinking? Yes, but he's in trouble, now. It's partly his wife's fault. Is she worth staying with? I don't know. I think, but I don't know. In any case, that's for him to decide. If folks divorce over one instance of infidelity, this IS a huge deal, because it has damaged who believes he is and if he is not able to repair that, he's done anyway.


Awesome post.

This gets at the heart of so many issues with people.

They build a world around an idea, ideal, belief or something they hold true and they feel safe. All is well. I'm smart, made good decisions and from those things, all good has flowed.

In this, his wife has not changed. She did these things, lied, and went on to be a wife that still fit in with the belief system. 

What changed is him.

His knowledge. Eating from the tree as it were. 

This revelation has knocked out his foundation.

She can apologize forever but as with any kind of betrayal, it is up to the betrayed to figure out how to fixthings.

She can't fix this.

Grief and anger have to be allowed to pour out. He lost something.

It was an idea. A belief. It wasnt the foundation of his marriage until he learned it wasn't the foundation of his marriage, if that makes sense.

Grieve the loss. It is ok.

And do seek help. Guided grieving mat lead to saving your marriage.

I think the lie is huge. I was lied to before marriage and I don't believe I would have married him had I known. I have made the terrible mistake of being unable to let it go and it has clouded everything.

Gandhi said something like "once you question a man's motives, everything he does is tainted."

That's where I am. 

Don't let yourself get to that place.

She seems otherwise alright. Is she?

I know.

You don't know.

How can you know?

Did you really, really trust her fully before this? Never any inkling? Nothing else come up to cause insecurity that this new info set on fire? No secret need to knock her off her pedestal?

If all was truly well, it is probably because you chose well. She didn't disappoint you. Good wife. Good mum. Good partner.

So your self-trust seems rewarded. Nobody gets everything right. You missed something you couldn't have seen.

I think exploring the loss is good. Go slow.

Seek counseling. 

Then go together.


----------



## 2ntnuf

That was beautiful, ClipClop2. 

It was so good, it made the anger, which I had pushed back and thought I got rid of, well up inside me. It's a fury, just under the surface. Very good.


----------



## manticore

NovellaBiers said:


> This is clearly an insecurity issue as was demonstrated by OP and another poster in this thread.


I am amazed of how many users are minimizing the OP's feelings as if is just his problem just because they don't share the same vision about sex as him.

once I was like him, in middle school I told my friends (I, in elementary school went to a catholic school just for males, this changed in middle school) that I wanted to marry being virigin to a virgin girl to share a special bond (not exactly those words but that was the message), of course I was ridiculed and for years the friends that I still contacted from that gang keep bringing the subject back even in our middle 20's.

the OP holded dear that kind of bond he wanted to live under that philosophy where a person give each other willingly for firts time and kept that bond forever, and that is not wrong, I bet that if all people in the world would share that kind of vision, CWI would not exist or at least infidelity will be much less common.

In his own way, he had a DDay and his feelings and symptoms are not that different from someone who was cheated in his marriage 20 years ago and after that his wife became the perfect spouse.

- the very foundations and trust under what the marriage was built were destroyed.
- he was lied, deceived and manipulated.
- he probably wonders in what else his wife has lied duing all those 20 year of maqrriage if she could deceive him for that long without suspecting
- he have mind movies
- he probaly feel a fool as he problably shared his beliefs with persons who knes his wife's past.

so trying to say, "OP, not being virgin when you marry is normal so get over it", is unrealistic, *who will not feel insecure in his/her marriage if he/she founds that the very foundation and bound under which it was constructed is a lie.*

that said, having an affair just will mess worst your whole marriage, if your wife is as loyal, lovely and commited as you said, your affair will wound her and hurt her as nothing in her life and will change her vision of you forever, even if she get over it she may resent you and break your marriage.

OP is your wife is really as you said please reflect before acting, there are many persons that will give anything to have a relationship with their spouses as you describe yours.

my advice, go to IC, maybe even MC *but* the counselor has to be emphatic with you vision of marriage and the bond that you felt was destroyed, not someone who would just tell you "how not marrying being virgin is common", also give it time to see how you feel after a year, if you really can not get over it then maybe divorce is an option but is sounds like you will ruin a good thing that many people spend their all live seaching (of course I still don't condone her actions for lying at the beginnig of the relationship)


----------



## larry.gray

manticore said:


> my advice, go to IC, maybe even MC *but the counselor has to be emphatic with you vision of marriage* and the bond that you felt was destroyed, not someone who would just tell you "how not marrying being virgin is common",


:iagree:

Helpful advice there. (I extended the bold).

Yes, you're going to find counselors with understanding of both points of view. You need to have one that is at least empathetic to your point of view.


----------



## NovellaBiers

SimplyAmorous said:


> There are a variety of views on this... Tradition is more intercourse related (Penis in Vagina) ..but yes.. the word has been redefined given our casual sex climate today.. ..Each of us is likely to settle on our own interpretation.... and that's fine...you are entitled to your opinion... but I am as well..
> 
> I know one thing.. Most red blooded young men are not going to settle on Heavy Petting with a woman but throw her to the curb so to equate one on the same bar as the other -as much as we are put down for this boundary... ...I'm going to call
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> on that...
> 
> We never touched oral sex till after we were married.
> 
> A post on another thread


How do you suppose gays have sex then? It was common and _normal _ in Roman Empire over 2000 years ago, before Jesus was even born, for two men or two women have sex with each other. I think your definition is the new, redefined one.

Could you ask a lesbian couple with straight face that have they lost their virginity yet by having sex with a man?


----------



## NovellaBiers

manticore said:


> so trying to say, "OP, not being virgin when you marry is normal so get over it", is unrealistic, *who will not feel insecure in his/her marriage if he/she founds that the very foundation and bound under which it was constructed is a lie.*


You need to read the first post again. She didn't actually claim to be a virgin and OP knew this. The lie was that she was raped but she had consensual sex instead apparently.


----------



## sidney2718

Theseus said:


> No, that's not the point I was making at all. The point is, to those who keep saying the *lie* is the real issue here, then what if the lie was only about kissing someone else before marriage? What if the lie was about never having tasted alcohol before? What if this lie was about never having a boyfriend before? Would that be just as serious?
> 
> The point is, I just don't think this lie is the real issue here, because I don't think anyone would be so up in arms if the lie was about anything other than sex. I just think many people in this thread have an unhealthy view about it. Understand that?


Agreed. But for me it is worse than that. Ignoring the point that virigns are these days often called "unicorns" because of their rarity, did the OP tell his future wife early on that he was only interested in virgins? No he did not. He allowed the relationship to become quite serious before he chose to mention the qualifications necessary.

This is, to be nice about it, bait and switch. And while I understand his discomfort with his new knowlege, he should also acknowlege that she's been a good and faithful wife all this time.

Why do I take this harsh point of view? Because in our society there is no general expectation of virginity at the time of marriage and there hasn't been for at least the last 50 years. So folks with uncommon needs do need to make them known early in the dating game.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NovellaBiers said:


> You need to read the first post again. She didn't actually claim to be a virgin and OP knew this. The lie was that she was raped but she had consensual sex instead apparently.


Even this, though true, minimizes what he says she did. It wan't just with one guy. If she lied and it was consensual sex with one guy, that might even have been overlooked more easily. It was much more than that. Therein lies the gravity of the lie, itself. Now add that he didn't have a choice to do the same because he believed her, due to his upbringing, and you have one hell of a mess in his head.


----------



## NovellaBiers

2ntnuf said:


> If she lied and it was consensual sex with one guy, that might even have been overlooked more easily. It was much more than that.


And you know this by how? The OP has not told us the whole story.


----------



## sidney2718

larry.gray said:


> Then why did she choose him? She had other options if she's as good looking as she says. Her choice was to lie to catch him. That doesn't sound very loving.


Perhaps it is because the OP's requirements were stated after she'd already fallen in love with him. I've reread his original post and that's a very plausible reading. Since he was the one with the unusual request, perhaps he should have stated it earlier in the relationship?


----------



## NovellaBiers

larry.gray said:


> So what's your advice?


Obviously the OP needs to get into IC to help him get over this. There is nothing his wife can do to change what has happened over 20 years ago.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NovellaBiers said:


> And you know this by how? The OP has not told us the whole story.


Very true. It could have been one man or boy. It could even have been a woman or girl. I based my opinion on this quote in the opening post. My assumption could be wrong, but it does seem unlikely that one boy in his teens would have great experience. Although, I know, when I was a teen, I had plenty of sex with one teenage girl. She became, the mother of my children. 



> My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me.


Like me, how would you know it was not more than one? Please provide a clue.



Edit: While you are at it. Please provide proof that this story is even real.


----------



## larry.gray

NovellaBiers said:


> Obviously the OP needs to get into IC to help him get over this. There is nothing his wife can do to change what has happened over 20 years ago.


Then why don't you suggest that instead of ridiculing him?

Also, do you have advice for her?


----------



## sidney2718

Cletus said:


> Possibly she made two mistakes at once. Overlooking someone with a huge sexual hangup, and lying about her past.
> 
> You know, the sort of human error that makes this forum so popular.
> 
> When people use the term bait and switch around here, how often is the outcome 20 years of magnificent marriage and sex with a "10"?


I would bet that if he'd have married a virgin he'd not be nearly as happy as he is now. The blind leading the blind and all that...


----------



## larry.gray

NovellaBiers said:


> And you know this by how? The OP has not told us the whole story.


Her is what the OP said:



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me.


I fully acknowledge it is a presumption, but _VERY sexually experienced_ doesn't usually mean experience with one guy, particularly at 19 y/o.


----------



## larry.gray

sidney2718 said:


> Perhaps it is because the OP's requirements were stated after she'd already fallen in love with him. I've reread his original post and that's a very plausible reading. Since he was the one with the unusual request, perhaps he should have stated it earlier in the relationship?


I don't accept that it is 'unusual.' 

People on both sides of the isle on this need to be honest. 

Just because the hookup culture is accepted as universal by hollywood and a sizable portion of the culture doesn't mean that those who aren't are 'unusual.'


----------



## larry.gray

sidney2718 said:


> I would bet that if he'd have married a virgin he'd not be nearly as happy as he is now. The blind leading the blind and all that...


I did just fine, thank you. And so did SA and her husband.


----------



## NovellaBiers

larry.gray said:


> I did just fine, thank you. And so did SA and her husband.


That makes two then. I bet there are more BHs here whose WW was a virgin when they married and decided to see what they missed. It's actually quite common theme on this forum.


----------



## manticore

NovellaBiers said:


> You need to read the first post again. She didn't actually claim to be a virgin and OP knew this. The lie was that she was raped but she had consensual sex instead apparently.



you are the one who needs to reread my post again that is why I wrote:



manticore said:


> the OP holded dear that kind of bond he wanted to live under that philosophy where a person give each other *willingly* for firts time and kept that bond forever, and that is not wrong, I bet that if all people in the world would share that kind of vision, CWI would not exist or at least infidelity will be much less common.


I read the part of the rape, and if anything for someone who shared his vision of sexuality long ago, that made the bond even stronger, she was a victim who was saving her virginity for the one she loved (according to her), he overlooked the rape thinking that even if in real life she was not a virgin in her heart she was (I would have seen it like that), which just make the realization of the truth even more brutal.

those who know me as user knows that before posting I always read all the thread (and all previous threads) from the OPs, otherwise you end giving your apinnion without the proper knowladge.


----------



## NovellaBiers

The fact is she was not a virgin and the OP knows this. You can twist it anyway you want but it does not change that.


----------



## larry.gray

NovellaBiers said:


> That makes two then. I bet there are more BHs here whose WW was a virgin when they married and decided to see what they missed. It's actually quite common theme on this forum.


Firstly, your statistics are off. Spouses who are more likely to be loyal if they are their partner's 'only.'

Secondly, I think part of what brings those BH here is that the destructiveness of their WW's infidelity is more profound because they've destroyed more.

None of that makes me wish my wife had laid pipe with another guy though....


----------



## NovellaBiers

larry.gray said:


> Firstly, your statistics are off. Spouses who are more likely to be loyal if they are their partner's 'only.'
> 
> Secondly, I think part of what brings those BH here is that the destructiveness of their WW's infidelity is more profound because they've destroyed more.
> 
> None of that makes me wish my wife had laid pipe with another guy though....


Really? What are your statistics then. Maybe you can post the real numbers you have gathered in this thread?


----------



## Coffee Amore

larry.gray said:


> Firstly, your statistics are off. Spouses who are more likely to be loyal if they are their partner's 'only.'


Are there statistics on this? I haven't seen any data and I'd be interested in seeing valid studies, if there are any.


----------



## manticore

NovellaBiers said:


> The fact is she was not a virgin and the OP knows this. You can twist it anyway you want but it does not change that.


no, the fact here is that she claimend that the first man with who she shared the bed willingly was her husband which was a lie.

*this is not about biology*, about if she had hymen or not, this is about bonds, feelings, foundation of trust and marriage, beliefs, I can not believe that you don't see it, it could not be more clear that that is what is bothering the OP.

otherwise he had not married his wife because she was not virgin, the moment he is talking about the rape and how that did not bother him at all, meant that is not biology is foundations of his marriage what is important here (like that or more clear?)


----------



## 2ntnuf

Run dudes. She has an agenda. It has nothing to do with helping this guy. Get out and let her help him with all her wise opinions.


----------



## manticore

Coffee Amore said:


> Are there statistics on this? I haven't seen any data and I'd be interested in seeing valid studies, if there are any.


I have read many articles about how the less sexual partners you have in live the more easy is monogamy for the person, (like 3 articles about it), I think there is even a chick flick about it, but let me see if I find them again.

(not exactly as Larry said it, but very close to it)


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

NovellaBiers said:


> The fact is she was not a virgin and the OP knows this. You can twist it anyway you want but it does not change that.


Then you're purposefully being ignorant in order to ridicule people of faith. This is all about how the OP's wife represented her views of sexuality to her husband. She told him that she viewed sex as sacred and exclusive to marriage. So if she was raped, in the OP's mind his wife had pure intentions but some criminal took that choice to remain a virgin away from her. That is very different from a woman who is technically a virgin, but was highly sexual by engaging in mutual masturbation, giving/receiving oral and other sex acts that do not involve penetration.

No doubt the OP would prefer a chaste person who was raped vs a woman who was never penetrated and had oral sex regularly. If you cannot understand the difference, then there is something wrong with you, or you are dense...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NovellaBiers said:


> How do you suppose gays have sex then? It was common and _normal _ in Roman Empire over 2000 years ago, before Jesus was even born, for two men or two women have sex with each other. I think your definition is the new, redefined one.
> 
> Could you ask a lesbian couple with straight face that have they lost their virginity yet by having sex with a man?


 I don't care how one wants to express their sexuality...getting into these specifics nor the personal interpretation anyone has has on the word "virginity"... to each their own..For the record... I have nothing against lesbians or homosexuals.. one of my favorite bosses back in the day was.. Loved him! 

I really enjoyed the gracious post by *manticore* ...I sometimes feel a little sick clicking on these threads KNOWING my views will be belittled after I share....so it's nice to come across those expressing an understanding , someone who "gets it" and doesn't resort to putting us down...because we aren't jumping on the casual sex train ......frankly I could give a rat's a$$ about the word "virgin" - how you see it, or want to tell me how I view it wrongly.....it's just NOT what any of this is about anyway.....

..It has EVERYTHING to do with HOW WE FELT, what we shared...*what sex represented to us* , and the boundaries WE agreed on together....it's a very personal thing.....it's very obvious the word carries much disdain in today's society anyway...we have sl** shaming...and now we have "VIRGIN BASHING"... it's just as prevalent...and growing.... 

A quote I especially like that should satisfy us all..even in our differences.....



> " *The key to enjoying our own sexuality is to remember that it’s not about what ‘people’ would think, but what we think. How great sex makes us feel, what a healing, bonding joy it is.
> 
> Set the boundaries you feel comfortable with and play within them. And for the sake of love, don’t be too hard on yourself..Embracing our sexuality is a life-long journey towards self-discovery; get yourself a First Class ticket to ride*."


----------



## manticore

2ntnuf said:


> Run dudes. She has an agenda. It has nothing to do with helping this guy. Get out and let her help him with all her wise opinions.


yes, I also feel that there is an agenda here, and no useful advices for the user, your advice is wise, she don't see worried about helping the OP.


----------



## Coffee Amore

manticore said:


> I have read many articles about how the less sexual partners you have in live the more easy is monogamy for the person, (like 3 articles about it), I think there is even a chick flick about it, but let me see if I find them again.
> 
> (not exactly as Larry said it, but very close to it)


A chick flick wouldn't mean anything. 

The only data I've seen is a "study" by the Heritage Foundation and the Heritage Foundation is a well known conservative research/think tank, so not exactly unbiased.


----------



## clipclop2

Something is very wrong on TAM lately. The anger. 

The personal issues stomping all over other people's threads.

This has got to stop.


----------



## NovellaBiers

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't care how one wants to express their sexuality...getting into these specifics nor the personal interpretation anyone has has on the word "virginity"... to each their own..For the record... I have nothing against lesbians or homosexuals.. one of my favorite bosses back in the day was.. Loved him!
> 
> I really enjoyed the gracious post by *manticore* ...I sometimes feel a little sick clicking on these threads KNOWING my views will be belittled after I share....so it's nice to come across those expressing an understanding , someone who "gets it" and doesn't resort to putting us down...because we aren't jumping on the casual sex train ......frankly I could give a rat's a$$ about the word "virgin" - how you see it, or want to tell me how I view it wrongly.....it's just NOT what any of this is about anyway.....
> 
> ..It has EVERYTHING to do with HOW WE FELT, what we shared...*what sex represented to us* , and the boundaries WE agreed on together....it's a very personal thing.....it's very obvious the word carries much disdain in today's society anyway...we have sl** shaming...and now we have "VIRGIN BASHING"... it's just as prevalent...and growing....
> 
> A quote I especially like that should satisfy us all..even in our differences.....


Are they virgins or not to you or do you think they need penetration from a man? You are very good at avoiding answering tough subjects and questions. At least I'm being honest about my opinions and don't hide behind long posts with pretty pictures and colors...

In fact even between you two people of faith (I presume), you have a different view what is a virgin. Manticore said it's about the idea of who she will give herself first in her mind and you say it's about physical penetration with a man's penis AKA PIV intercourse. Which one is it?


----------



## clipclop2

Please take this elsewhere.


----------



## sidney2718

One last thing, here's the quote from the OP's first post here:


> We started dating and I was upfront with her and within a few months into the relationship let her know that I am a virgin & would like the same in my partner. She started crying and told me a story of how she was a virgin and was raped a few months before we met.


Note that it was "a few months" before the OP brought up the subject of virginity. And the implication of the soon-to-be wife's response indicates that she had already fallen for the OP.

So she's caught in a trap. Admit the truth and be dumped by a guy she had feelings for or lie and possibly marry him. She's got maybe 4 seconds to make a choice.

My view is and has been that the OP is a lucky man to have found such a wonderful and loyal wife. Four childbirths is a lot of serious pain. She did that for him. I'd say to the OP, mistakes were made. Reality has shown that you've made a good choice. Better to live with that than to have to live with a bad choice.


----------



## Thundarr

JCD said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but a bit of honesty earlier would have lead to them never being together in the first place.
> 
> Maybe in some alternate reality, he turns his snooty nose up at the honest version of this woman and goes for Abigail, who made him miserable for the next twenty years.
> 
> Just something to think about.


It's speculation to assume either I suppose. To me this is a conversation that normally comes up after things get serious. After the two people know how much they like/love each other already. That's the time when people want to make it work the most.


----------



## Machiavelli

2ntnuf said:


> Run dudes. She has an agenda. It has nothing to do with helping this guy. Get out and let her help him with all her wise opinions.


She should sell used cars. High mileage ones.


----------



## clipclop2

Take it elsewhere. Please.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Machiavelli said:


> She should sell used cars. High mileage ones.


Typical beta male behavior.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NovellaBiers said:


> Are they virgins or not to you or do you think they need penetration from a man? You are very good at avoiding answering tough subjects and questions. At least I'm being honest about my opinions and don't hide behind long posts with pretty pictures and colors...
> 
> In fact even between you two people of faith (I presume), you have a different view what is a virgin. Manticore said it's about the idea of who she will give herself first in her mind and you say it's about physical penetration with a man's penis AKA PIV intercourse. Which one is it?


I am not trying to avoid anything...and I am more than happy and willing to explore this further ...do some back & forths.... though given your making fun of my posts, saying I hide, using pretty pics & colors, it's very clear to me you don't LIKE me ... so what is your agenda here NovellaBiers...

PM me... tell me why you care ... why you want to pick my brain.. and I promise you ..I will respond..


----------



## NovellaBiers

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am not trying to avoid anything...and I am more than happy and willing to explore this further ...do some back & forths.... though given your making fun of my posts, saying I hide, using pretty pics & colors, it's very clear to me you don't LIKE me ... so what is your agenda here NovellaBiers...
> 
> PM me... tell me why you care ... why you want to pick my brain.. and I promise you ..I will respond..


Well, you managed to avoid answering once again with the excuse that I don't like you, which is not true! Of course I like you. :cat::fish::flowerkitty::bunny::butterfly:

Hmm, why do you feel I want to pick your brain?


----------



## Thundarr

From the outside looking in, it's hard to deny something works well after twenty years of happy marriage. BBR could offer advice to a lot of TAMERs under different circumstances. First let's give his wife credit for being a good wife over the years.

Now let's acknowledge that she messed up big time and they're both paying for it. If she's the good wife and person BBR say she is then she knows this and she'd be the last person to want people making excuses for her on TAM.

Good luck BBR. I believe the good will far outweigh the bad given time. That's assuming you don't do anything too harsh while your emotions are raw. Uncertainty will amp up anxiety and fear and lack of self confidence. Give yourself time to think about it.


----------



## larry.gray

NovellaBiers said:


> Well, you managed to avoid answering once again with the excuse that I don't like you, which is not true! Of course I like you.


You do know why she made that presumption, don't you?

You've been busy bashing the men that feel the same way she does. Your disdain for us has been obvious. She gave you the benefit of the doubt and presumed that it was her views that you disliked. If you're OK with her yet don't like these men who hold the same view, then it's just misandry and not principles.


----------



## Nucking Futs

sidney2718 said:


> One last thing, here's the quote from the OP's first post here:
> 
> Note that it was "a few months" before the OP brought up the subject of virginity. And the implication of the soon-to-be wife's response indicates that she had already fallen for the OP.
> 
> So she's caught in a trap. Admit the truth and be dumped by a guy she had feelings for or lie and possibly marry him. She's got maybe 4 seconds to make a choice.
> 
> My view is and has been that the OP is a lucky man to have found such a wonderful and loyal wife. *Four childbirths is a lot of serious pain. She did that for him.* I'd say to the OP, mistakes were made. Reality has shown that you've made a good choice. Better to live with that than to have to live with a bad choice.


Wait, this is a new concept for me. I had no idea that women gave birth for their husbands, I thought they wanted children too. That's quite a sacrifice to make just to make a man happy, I'm surprised the human race hasn't died out.


----------



## clipclop2

Geez. This is so screwed up.

Peeps, move on.


----------



## happyman64

SimplyAmorous said:


> This person who shared this information with you... someone new in your lives...and old friend who suddenly wanted to spill some truths.... what do you feel his or her *motivation* was in telling you NOW.... Surely this person knew this would put a Dagger into your marriage, that he/she was dropping a Loaded BOMB.
> 
> It is good she came clean when confronted...I would think she is furious with this old friend though.


I wouldn't call a person that dug up this past sexual history after 20 years a friend at all.

What good could possibly come from it?

Why none at all.

Look at the mess it has created.......


----------



## Csquare

I wonder if OP is not quite as satisfied with his marriage as he professes. Maybe a big part of his satisfaction with his marriage was his belief that he was her only chosen lover. 

My husband of 26 years and I are each other's one and only, and that gives me a confidence in him and trust that elevates my satisfaction with him even during times of stress and turbulence. He chose me and only me and so even if we have vehement disagreements, our bond is secure and unfrayed.

If my H had lied (although difficult to hide our awkward intimate fumblings in our early marriage) and had touched others the way he touched me, and later revealed the truth, I would feel like I had been played, big-time.

My H and I were discussing OP's dilemma and H wondered at OP's credulity about the wife's claim of rape. Did he ask her what were the circumstances of that event? Was it a stranger or date rape? Was alcohol involved? Did she ever report it? Etc. 

Seems OP was deceived, but maybe he chose to be deceived. (Heck, she was a 10, after all. Why ask so many questions and ruin the illusion?). He needs to own up to his part in the story. Maybe then he will feel more empowered in the marriage and less like a dupe.


----------



## manticore

NovellaBiers said:


> Well, you managed to avoid answering once again with the excuse that I don't like you, which is not true! Of course I like you. :cat::fish::flowerkitty::bunny::butterfly:
> 
> Hmm, why do you feel I want to pick your brain?


What is wrong with you, really?, I wonder if this is the right kind of forum for you, it seems that you are more focused in bashing and attacking other people's beliefs and thinking, than making any useful contribution.

you accuse others of being intolerant, making insinuations, but the really intolerant is you, whoever have an opinion different to yours is attacked, now you are trying to ridiculize a user that since the first time I began to read TAM has not been but respectful and honest have always post with nothing but the best intentions within her insights, unlike you that the only advice or insight that you gave in this thread was that the user had to go to IC and that was after being directly asked by Larry if you had an advice or you were only giving negative comments.


----------



## Thundarr

SimplyAmorous said:


> This person who shared this information with you... someone new in your lives...and old friend who suddenly wanted to spill some truths.... what do you feel his or her *motivation* was in telling you NOW.... Surely this person knew this would put a Dagger into your marriage, that he/she was dropping a Loaded BOMB.
> 
> It is good she came clean when confronted...I would think she is furious with this old friend though.


All it takes is one wrong statement followed by an awkward look of shhhhhh. It was probably a dumb slip but really keeping other people's secrets from their spouse is not a position to be put in. Especially when you don't know it's a secret. It's just more proof that secrets are the problem and not necessarily how they slip out.


----------



## treyvion

happyman64 said:


> I wouldn't call a person that dug up this past sexual history after 20 years a friend at all.
> 
> What good could possibly come from it?
> 
> Why none at all.
> 
> Look at the mess it has created.......


He might have saw how happy she is and how "good" she is and trying to fill the guy in to pour salt on him.

If this is the case, he should just love his wife and be happy that she gave her life to him.


----------



## Thor

SimplyAmorous said:


> He went further ...and changed his thinking also...it's about WHERE she is *NOW*....her beliefs/ values NOW...when they get together... *not where she has been.*.. of course it'd still be his ideal.... but he is realistic..has his feet on the ground... of how unlikely this will be to find in today's society.......and would not want to pass up on a good woman that could make a wonderful wife -despite something she could not take back...


Just a point of info for you and your son.

The Mormon culture is pretty strong and definitely promotes virginity. Young adults are under a lot of peer and church pressure to remain virgins.

What I hear from my LDS coworkers is that the kids do everything, and a lot of it, except PiV. They are every bit as sexually active as non-LDS, maybe even more so, but they are officially virgins.

The "V" designation may not mean as much as one might think.


----------



## Cletus

manticore said:


> I have read many articles about how the less sexual partners you have in live the more easy is monogamy for the person, (like 3 articles about it), I think there is even a chick flick about it, but let me see if I find them again.
> 
> (not exactly as Larry said it, but very close to it)


I'm going to take a wild guess here and postulate that this completely inverts the cause/effect relationship between these two facts.


----------



## NovellaBiers

manticore said:


> What is wrong with you, really?, I wonder if this is the right kind of forum for you, it seems that you are more focused in bashing and attacking other people's beliefs and thinking, than making any useful contribution.
> 
> you accuse others of being intolerant, making insinuations, but the really intolerant is you, whoever have an opinion different to yours is attacked, now you are trying to ridiculize a user that since the first time I began to read TAM has not been but respectful and honest have always post with nothing but the best intentions within her insights, unlike you that the only advice or insight that you gave in this thread was that the user had to go to IC and that was after being directly asked by Larry if you had an advice or you were only giving negative comments.


There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not even seeing an IC or taking pills. Fortunately you can't dictate what kind of forums I visit. I think YOU are the one attacking me and my views and beliefs along with your pals. In fact your main contribution to this thread is picking on me. Maybe you have a problem with people who are brutally honest and not afraid to say what they really think.


----------



## Cletus

Coffee Amore said:


> A chick flick wouldn't mean anything.
> 
> The only data I've seen is a "study" by the Heritage Foundation and the Heritage Foundation is a well known conservative research/think tank, so not exactly unbiased.


I don't care if the foundation underwriting the research is biased as long as they publish the methods and data for their research. 

All kinds of interesting findings come from biased research all the time - as long as it's intellectually honest.


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## Cletus

clipclop2 said:


> Geez. This is so screwed up.
> 
> Peeps, move on.


Having any luck controlling the forum?


----------



## clipclop2

No.


----------



## Thor

NovellaBiers said:


> You need to read the first post again. She didn't actually claim to be a virgin and OP knew this. The lie was that she was raped but she had consensual sex instead apparently.


My wife was sexually abused as a young girl. To me, this has zero, zip, nada to do with sex. She was the victim of an assault, a crime, of violence.

Rape victims typically do not consider it to have been sex.


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## Thor

I will go out on a limb and state that the definition is very specifically PiV.

PiV is not the same as oral, anal, manual stim, kissing, or groping. PiV is PiV. There is a name for someone who has not done PiV, and it is Virgin.


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## manticore

NovellaBiers said:


> In fact even between you two people of faith (I presume), you have a different view what is a virgin


sadly I am not really a person of faith like I once was, but that is a subejct for another day.

I think you misunderstood the whole idea of my initial post, which was to remark the importance of the bond the OP felt he had with his wife, which turned to be a lie, and that just because we don't live under op's philosophy (including me) we can not minimize what he hold dear and what he felt what was lost.

to clarify something, I have had many sexual partners (I hope it does not sound like I am bragging) and I am single at 31, is true that I once shared that vision (when I was very Young), but I have not remember the experience that I related in my post in many years, the fact that I respect and even kind of admire those who live under that ideology have nothing to do with my religious beliefs, is because I acknowledge that a person may decide to lead his/her life with different principles and ideologies and as long as those don't affect a third party I can respect them, and also because inside I am a romantic and even if I was not able to conduct my life in that way I still find worth of respect those who could hold to their principles.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Thor said:


> I will go out on a limb and state that the definition is very specifically PiV.
> 
> PiV is not the same as oral, anal, manual stim, kissing, or groping. PiV is PiV. There is a name for someone who has not done PiV, and it is Virgin.


That's only your personal religious opinion and not everyone share your limited view. It seems your definition contradicts with your post above though.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Thor said:


> Just a point of info for you and your son.
> 
> The Mormon culture is pretty strong and definitely promotes virginity. Young adults are under a lot of peer and church pressure to remain virgins.
> 
> What I hear from my LDS coworkers is that the kids do everything, and a lot of it, except PiV. They are every bit as sexually active as non-LDS, maybe even more so, but they are officially virgins.
> 
> *The "V" designation may not mean as much as one might think*.


There is so much I could say on this... and I HEAR you..and agree with you... 

The word can be ABUSED like anything else can, therefore rendering it's intentional meaning to basically = WORTHLESS.. as far as speaking of a woman's character / personal values..... why I offered that Virginity post with the WIDE Range of views - including the whole "*Technically speaking*" - oh she has her hymen, but basically she is still as promiscuous as everyone else.... 

Amazing amount of Leeway there... so really one can let loose blowing all the Frat boys but just refuse penetration...she can do mutual masturbation and spread it around too... this can be DONE VERY CASUALLY EVEN.. no love strings... Really, she could even be a stripper and work in a massage parlor ... 

Now contrast something like that...with another girl who was penetrated (intercourse /hymen broken) by her BF for yrs dating, its only been the 2 of them they plan to get married.. Love strings firmly & romantically attached / high emotional involvement ... ....she's never been with another man .... yeah..how dare the one who was in love would be looked upon as LESS PURE ..or with more judgement over the girl who was sucking 10 plus guys randomly... something is very F'ed up about that picture.. isn't it??

...This is why our sexual beliefs NEED to be talked about, not based purely on *a WORD*... . you won't have any disagreement with me. 

Now about our son...he is not a Mormon and frankly In my opinion, he is TOO STRICT with his beliefs... Religion can be a mind Kill on sexually don't you think? .. 

I have as much told him if his father was like HIM... we would have never lasted..we had OUR FUN....and although the church may have frowned on what we did...we felt good about it and our boundaries, we had something new to bring to our wedding night.. I was a christian back then and yeah- one could say we rode the fence a little.. I wouldn't take any of that back. I feel the church's rules are far too strict.. though I would argue it is BEST to not go there with someone you wouldn't want to spend a life with, have a child with. 

4 yrs ago now (I've been here too long!)... I did a thread on the "Silver Ring Program" - I feel it sets our teens up for failure....it's too stringent ... when we are battling our hormones.... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...r-silver-ring-thing-purity-ring-movement.html.

My son agrees with all of that.. what can you do.. he is kinda stubborn - like his Mother.. 

The truth is...this is a case where Mom is telling son to bring a Chick home and have a little fun... and son is telling Mom "You are corrupt".. he is waiting for LOVE...it's really quite ridiculous... but NO, he is not GAY...he struggles with Porn.... he is , however, very choosy... In my opinion, too much. Some of the girls who have liked him, many would have jumped to BANG.

** As a side note, Novella Biers has NOT sent me a pm- as I have asked... that's a shame because I have constructed an answer for her.


----------



## NovellaBiers

SA, I don't feel the need to judge either one of those women in your examples. However, do you consider the first woman is still a virgin just because the only thing she's not done is PIV intercourse? I don't and I think we actually agree on this...


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## samyeagar

This is the problem with arguing the spirit vs the letter and getting hung up on symantic. The dictionary definition is often rendered completely useless when addressing real life situations.

As a society, we have agreed on certain definitions of words. Sometimes the letter of definition changes over time, sometimes the spirit changes over time and it becomes difficult to agree when one supports the letter and the other supports the spirit when there is only one word to cover both.


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## NovellaBiers

I could imagine someone using that definiton saying: "Honey, it was just an anal intercourse and a blowjob. We didn't have sex and I'm still a virgin. What's the big deal?"


----------



## samyeagar

NovellaBiers said:


> I could imagine someone using that definiton saying: "Honey, it was just an anal intercourse and a blowjob. We didn't have sex and I'm still a virgin. What's the big deal?"


You don't need to imagine it.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> I will go out on a limb and state that the definition is very specifically PiV.
> 
> PiV is not the same as oral, anal, manual stim, kissing, or groping. PiV is PiV. There is a name for someone who has not done PiV, and it is Virgin.


I think if someone says they haven't "had sex" it would mean PIV, Oral or Anal.

If they had oral, they would say "i had oral sex but I'm a virgin".

Not sure about anal, crazy that someone is not a virgin anal but a vaginal virgin.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Theseus said:


> I don't see how either of these is constructive advice. When they got married, the OP was only 19 and his wife 20. That is too young for people to marry, IMO, but that's another issue. Immaturity does carry a price however, and not being fully honest about sexuality is one of the risks you take when you marry so young.
> 
> And let's look at just what she lied about. She said she was raped, but in fact, she had consensual sex. So it doesn't bother the OP that she had sex per se, it bothers him that she lied to him and is actually capable of enjoying sex with a person other than him. The former is understandable, the latter is not. I don't think it's healthy for a person to believe that he/she is such a unique snowflake that their spouse should never be sexually attracted to anyone else on earth. It's akin to the threads on TAM where wives are hysterical that their husbands actually enjoy looking at other women in porn.
> 
> OP, if she's really been a great wife for 20 years, then you have a rare wife indeed. Count your freaking blessings and enjoy your next 20 years! If you can't get past this on your own, then therapy, as many have recommended, is one option. If you don't want to do that, then just take a break from her! Go on a fishing trip by yourself, or do something that's good for you. Being away from her for a little while might make you appreciate what you have at home.



these are fair comments, in particular the inherent risks of marrying at such young ages. But a few things to consider are:

1. it was his desire to seek out someone that shared his values on sexual morality and who had abstained up to that point...so that the sex they shared as husband and wife would be special, in that regard. those things were important to him. he had every right to seek them out.

2. thinking about it again - ok - not clear whether or not she actually needs IC. but she does owe him a tremendous effort working with him in MC, which I think they will surely need. 

3. no matter how immature she was when they married, there is just no good excuse for her to maintain this lie for 20 years of marriage. setting aside the sexuality issues, she told him she had been raped, even though she had not. wow.......


----------



## nuclearnightmare

jld said:


> BBR, your wife has given you four children and 20 happy years. Yes, it was wrong of her to lie to you. But could you not forgive her? Could you not try to understand? A scared young woman who knew she could, she would, be a good wife to you? And has been? So many men here would love a woman like that.
> 
> And she confessed when confronted, and felt obvious remorse.
> 
> BBR, people are not perfect. Or at least some of us are not. Are you?
> 
> Count your blessings. You have many.


but she didn't feel enough remorse per her lies to sit him down a long time ago and clear the air. that would have shown real remorse, IMO.


----------



## 2ntnuf

nuclearnightmare said:


> but she didn't feel enough remorse per her lies to sit him down a long time ago and clear the air. that would have shown real remorse, IMO.


She waited till she figured he'd never leave her because he didn't have the, "ranking", he once did. 

Don't they call that, "hedging your bet"?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Thor said:


> It sounds like a big part of your agony is you feel inferior to her. you're a man and you've slept with fewer people than your wife has. Or perhaps you feel like she knows something which you don't, so you are not up to her level yet. If you sleep with another woman you would gain that secret knowledge and be her equal.
> 
> I get the part about the deception. And I get the part above. Realize that one of them is your wife's issue, and the other is your issue.
> 
> Your wife has to make amends for her deception. Read the book "After the Affair", it really will help both of you. See a good marriage therapist to work through the trust issue. This is your wife's cargo to haul, making the amends. You have to work with her because you are the one who has lost trust in her.
> 
> But you have to come to grips with the difference in experience level. That's your cargo to haul. BTDT, and in some ways you don't ever get over it. With counseling and with time you can knock it down to a minor background issue which you don't think about often.
> 
> Even if your wife gives you the green light to go have sex with another woman, don't do it. It is not the cure you are looking for.



:iagree:

BBR - I think you having an affair would sow the seeds of destruction of your marriage, which sounds like something you don't necessarily want to do. At minimum hold off on this idea as a very last resort type of thing.

I can understand how you feel though. my wife and I were both our firsts. am sure I would have similar feelings in your circumstances. e.g. I would obsess that she could compare me to other guy(s) but that I could not compare her to anyone - that could really eat at me.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

tryingtobebetter said:


> If she has the cleanest soul you have ever known, then at your time in life you should recognise you are unlikely to meet any one to match her.
> 
> Please read again my post earlier in the thread. It is the emotional side of your brain giving you ideas of revenge (which will not help in all likelihood). You need to give yourself time to calm down and see matters rationally.
> 
> Do you not see how lucky you are ? You have a '10' throwing herself at you, serving you hand and foot. That is most men's dream fantasy.
> 
> Calm down. Give yourself time. This will take months.
> 
> And yes, if you can find a good counsellor, go to him.


He is NOT lucky! her background is nothing like she claimed! If you want to call somone lucky there are plenty of guys in good marriages, no infidelity, and no false rape claims and an honest, initimate discussion of her sexual history pre-marriage. find one of those guys to call lucky.

every single guy on this thread would be thrown by what happened to BBR. only a matter of degree......


----------



## nuclearnightmare

NovellaBiers said:


> Indeed I just now noticed she did not even claim she was a virgin. *OP knew he was not marrying a virgin beforehand*.
> 
> Why are everyone even discussing about this?


??

*She started crying and told me a story of how she was a virgin and was raped a few months before we met.*

did I miss something? did BBR retract this somewhere? seriously, its not hard to miss important details in these rapidly spinning threads.....


----------



## Thor

NovellaBiers said:


> That's only your personal religious opinion and not everyone share your limited view. It seems your definition contradicts with your post above though.


No it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a very long history of the definition of the word Virgin.  Virgin has for thousands of years meant not having had sexual intercourse.

There are many sex acts. It is possible to engage in sexual behavior without it being PiV. There is no word to describe not having experienced those other acts though.

I am just going by the historical definition of the word.


----------



## treyvion

Thor said:


> No it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a very long history of the definition of the word Virgin. Virgin has for thousands of years meant not having had sexual intercourse.
> 
> There are many sex acts. It is possible to engage in sexual behavior without it being PiV. There is no word to describe not having experienced those other acts though.
> 
> I am just going by the historical definition of the word.


Virgin would mean she has never participated in vaginal intercourse.

But one who has avoided this, but done anal... I mean, I don't know what to call it.


----------



## Thor

SimplyAmorous said:


> There is so much I could say on this... and I HEAR you..and agree with you...
> 
> The word can be ABUSED like anything else can, therefore rendering it's intentional meaning to basically = WORTHLESS.. as far as speaking of a woman's character / personal values..... why I offered that Virginity post with the WIDE Range of views - including the whole "*Technically speaking*" - oh she has her hymen, but basically she is still as promiscuous as everyone else....
> 
> Amazing amount of Leeway there... so really one can let loose blowing all the Frat boys but just refuse penetration...she can do mutual masturbation and spread it around too... this can be DONE VERY CASUALLY EVEN.. no love strings... Really, she could even be a stripper and work in a massage parlor ...
> 
> Now contrast something like that...with another girl who was penetrated (intercourse /hymen broken) by her BF for yrs dating, its only been the 2 of them they plan to get married.. Love strings firmly & romantically attached / high emotional involvement ... ....she's never been with another man .... yeah..how dare the one who was in love would be looked upon as LESS PURE ..or with more judgement over the girl who was sucking 10 plus guys randomly... something is very F'ed up about that picture.. isn't it??


My best friend in college, and my best man at my wedding, was like your son. He was/is quite religious (Christian). I saw him turn down girls offering him bj's and PiV sex. After graduation he finally found a woman who matched his values and they've been happily married now almost 30 years. 

His twin brother married the girl who would go to the frats on weekends and blow the brothers. She was looking for her MRS degree. In fact, that is how they met, she was making the rounds at his frat.

They, too, have been married happily for nearly 30 years!!!

I have no idea what the moral of the story is other than one had best find a mate who matches closely in values.

One comment about your son's situation, because I think my S17 is currently in a similar place. Being a virgin and marrying a woman who is not a virgin carries some definite risks and challenges. It is even tougher if she has had numerous lovers, not just one long term relationship. For our sons, they will learn to be better at relationships if they have more of them. They will also learn to pick better for their wife if they have more relationships first.

Not that they must have multiple sex partners to pick a good wife. 

Statistically, though, their chances of finding a virgin at say age 21 to 27 are very low. This definitely reduces their odds of finding the right girl, unless her virginity is an absolute 100% requirement.


----------



## bild-a-loco

That is a pretty big hurdle to get over - believing something for 20 years only to find out the most important person in your world had lied to you about it? That is a big one to look past. 

I wish I had some good advice for you, but unless you somehow develop an amazing gift of forgiveness and can somehow block this from your mind, I don't know how it goes away. There has to be a really smart therapist out there somewhere who's dealt with this before, and I too don't understand the guys who are dismissing this rather lightly - I agree, this is a pretty big deal. Good luck.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NovellaBiers said:


> *SA, I don't feel the need to judge either one of those women in your examples. However, do you consider the first woman is still a virgin just because the only thing she's not done is PIV intercourse? I don't and I think we actually agree on this.*..


 Let me address the judging for a minute here....

Can I tell you - I LIKE PORN (soft only)...we rented it for a time... I've joined my hubby going to a strip club too....So I got the Christians coming against me on this end, then I got the casual sex crowd irritated with me on the other end.. I can't win...but this is who I am... 

I've sat & talked to strippers.. we had a friend who was a swinger...we talked about his experiences... did I judge him... try to change him. NO.. I didn't... We are open minded people.... in what others want for their own lives, given their own situations... if that is what floats their boat... 

BUT ... and hear me closely... I wouldn't want to marry or date a man who can separate Love & sex..(nor would my husband want a woman who can)..... now if you see that as judgement, I am not sure what I can do about that... I respect that we are different and deeply care about *different things*.. 

I got on my knees at age 15 & Prayed for a man like my husband... Who would respect me and understand *my wishes* for saving myself till marriage, not throw me away as men are HORNY and flighty..had enough of those trying to get into my pants....you don't know my story, what I witnessed growing up to shape how strongly I feel...and why....what lasting Love means to ME.....just as I do not know your story or what shaped you.. so please try to understand when some of us do not feel the same.

This is all I ask...

If I sleep with a man and blow him, I will tell you right now what is going to happen... I am going to want to tie myself to him, and share every deep nauseating mushy sappy dream I have ever dreamed, I am going to want the sweet afterglow laying in his arms with "I love you's" in the air... emotionally I am in DEEP.. I don't share my body unless these things come 1st .. I believe in being friends - best friends before Lovers...

Some feel that is counter productive to passion. .to each their own...

Now do you really think a man who just wants to "get off " wants to deal with someone like me... HELL NO! -- he'd want to throw me out the freaking window...and I would be so hurt.. I am a sensitive woman after all... but I don't feel this is a blight on my character, I feel this is something beautiful so long as I am smart enough to not waste it on the wrong men!

So understand --some of us are Geared Romantic ...we want those 1sts..they are deeply meaningful to us-like a treasure, something worth waiting for.... we revel in what that means ...we are those who SEEK a soul mate to share it ALL, body , soul and spirit... 

It's not that I judge the casual sex user - as again, I LOVE PORN... But for a lifetime partner.. the man I want to have children with...we would not at all be compatible.. does this make sense .. can you accept this -without feeling judged ??



NovellaBiers said:


> *I could imagine someone using that definiton saying: "Honey, it was just an anal intercourse and a blowjob. We didn't have sex and I'm still a virgin. What's the big deal?*"


 The attitude of ANYONE who would talk LIKE THIS -speaks much , doesn't it.. When we do things against our own beliefs, and the term "virgin" should carry some pureness to it..some elevation of being "set apart" - anyone with any brains knows this... I think we'd all agree.. but if there is no shame in disgracing what it it supposed to mean... what is there to be said.. 

Now...I felt guilty and shame for what WE did in our teens.. but lust is very very strong, I remember when we 1st got together, I was thinking to myself.. "How in the hell are we NOT going to go there" -every fiber in my body wanted to... but I was just 15.. we found the self control.. but to not touch each other..








.. not going to [email protected]#$ Heck if I would have listened to the church, I would have grown to resent God, felt he was nothing but a pure Kill Joy...while we went home to masturbate like a fiend thinking about each other.. How exciting that would [email protected]#

So we touched ... we enjoyed... our emotional connection grew....he knew I wasn't Low drive, capable of orgasms...and we weren't going stark raving mad. 



treyvion said:


> *I think if someone says they haven't "had sex" it would mean PIV, Oral or Anal.
> 
> If they had oral, they would say "i had oral sex but I'm a virgin".
> 
> Not sure about anal, crazy that someone is not a virgin anal but a vaginal virgin*.


 My brain also registers like this.. for instance... if a man hasn't stuck his twanger in a woman yet..and a couple guy friends learn this.. I can just hear the outcry...>>" what the hell is wrong with you man, Take her, throw her down in the bed & Bang her".. ya know.. that is what many see as becoming *a MAN*.. going *all the way*... the others are missing the mark somehow.... You haven't arrived yet. Also I've read a # of these "Retroactive jealousy "threads..the mind movies are of another MAN DOING HER.. it's 95% about intercourse.. Maybe Samyeagar can tell me what the real statistics are. 

There is just Something about SEX !


----------



## pidge70

I think it is funny that people are still going on about this when the OP hasn't even posted since page 7 and the thread is 18 pages long. Not to mention, he apparently last logged on this morning at 10:55 but, didn't feel a need to comment further........:scratchhead:


----------



## sidney2718

Thor said:


> My wife was sexually abused as a young girl. To me, this has zero, zip, nada to do with sex. She was the victim of an assault, a crime, of violence.
> 
> Rape victims typically do not consider it to have been sex.


But sexual abuse and rape often affect the victim's sex life.


----------



## Coffee Amore

pidge70 said:


> I think it is funny that people are still going on about this when the OP hasn't even posted since page 7 and the thread is 18 pages long. Not to mention, he apparently last logged on this morning at 10:55 but, didn't feel a need to comment further........:scratchhead:


That's what happens with these threads that get people all worked up. An original poster, usually someone without any posts here, throws in a hand grenade of a post then walks away probably amused by the reaction of those who post here.


----------



## samyeagar

Coffee Amore said:


> That's what happens with these threads that get people all worked up. An original poster, usually someone without any posts here, throws in a hand grenade of a post then walks away probably amused by the reaction of those who post here.


I have found some of the most interesting and generally informative dialogue has happened on just these kinds of threads though.


----------



## Deejo

pidge70 said:


> I think it is funny that people are still going on about this when the OP hasn't even posted since page 7 and the thread is 18 pages long. Not to mention, he apparently last logged on this morning at 10:55 but, didn't feel a need to comment further........:scratchhead:


Was looking at that very thing myself.


----------



## manticore

Coffee Amore said:


> That's what happens with these threads that get people all worked up. An original poster, usually someone without any posts here, throws in a hand grenade of a post then walks away probably amused by the reaction of those who post here.


Probably, but the threads are still useful for many people that at one `moment in their life could be going through similar experiences as the OP and want to see third parties opinions about it


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *manticore said*: Probably, but the threads are still useful for many people that at one `moment in their life could be going through similar experiences as the OP and want to see third parties opinions about it


I think he was playing us all .... but whatever.. is anything really lost just cause we gathered here and shared some personal thoughts and our opinions....doesn't bother me... do I think BBR is REAL ....and this story... probably not.


----------



## samyeagar

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think he was playing us all .... but whatever.. is anything really lost just cause we gathered here and shared some personal thoughts and our opinions....doesn't bother me... do I think BBR is REAL ....and this story... probably not.


I also don't really mind when zombie threads are resurected. If the topic doesn't interest me, I move on. No hard felings. Some of those can be quite useful for the same reasons, and I likely never would have found them if someone else hadn't already done the work for me


----------



## Thundarr

Deejo said:


> Was looking at that very thing myself.


but you're always LOOKING at stuff aren't you. Moderation must induce many head scratching moments.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

SimplyAmorous said:


> This person who shared this information with you... someone new in your lives...and old friend who suddenly wanted to spill some truths.... what do you feel his or her *motivation* was in telling you NOW.... Surely this person knew this would put a Dagger into your marriage, that he/she was dropping a Loaded BOMB.
> 
> It is good she came clean when confronted...I would think she is furious with this old friend though.


This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation. I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere". This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least...


----------



## clipclop2

She feels attacked and unprotected. I know it is hard to comprehend, but she feels abandoned by you andshe is very hurt.

If you want to save your marriage, you must proceed very carefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation.* I'm not sure of his motivation* but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere". This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least...


He probably didn't like being falsely accused. I wouldn't like it.

I imagine a scenario where you were really emotional and stressed and she said it was none of your business out of desperation. Hopefully that's the case. We (TAMERS) really don't know the details of the escalation. I hope she didn't really mean it. It's just a little out of character for a women who's been "perfect" and a marriage that's been "happy for twenty years".


----------



## clipclop2

Her response right now can very well be based solely on the situation.

OP, please seek help locally with people who know you both and are friends of the marriage.

I do not like what she did one bit.

But being here right now is NOT conducive to recovering yourmarriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> *This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation.*


Oh this is getting HEATED NOW... so an old friend of hers.. how long has this man been in your lives ? and YOU KNEW this was the man... didn't you want to haul off and deck him a long time ago.... or did she leave out who he was ....I can't imagine a man of your character allowing that to just slide ..any man would be furious......

Did *he* know all of these years she told YOU he raped her ? 



> I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. *Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere". This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up.* Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least..


Ok ...confused .... just 2 days ago (post #100).. you said this 



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Since "D-day" she's been treating me like a baby. She's been showering me with compliments like "handsome" , "sexy" etc... She's been waiting on me hand and foot doing anything and everything she can. Here is a text that she sent to me while I was at work:
> 
> *It's funny how I still get butterflies in my stomach when I think about us. I am falling all over in love with you. My heart goes fast when I think about u. It feels like when I first met you for the first time. I feel all wooozy inside. Can't wait to see you tonight. It feels like Heaven in your arms. I love you too much!!!*
> 
> She has been calling and texting me constantly as if we were teenagers again. She has been wearing sexy lingire for me for the past week and given me the wildest sex imaginable but as we were having sex, the thoughts kept bothering me. I'm trying hard to participate in our marriage but I feel like a part of me died that day.


You said in another post, she does NOT want this to come out...but now she is telling you -"you can go find happiness elsewhere", putting up a wall... is this because you let it rip (not exactly slip) that you were thinking of evening the score and sleeping with anther woman ?


----------



## larry.gray

Have you considered inviting her here BBR?


----------



## tom67

pidge70 said:


> I think it is funny that people are still going on about this when the OP hasn't even posted since page 7 and the thread is 18 pages long. Not to mention, he apparently last logged on this morning at 10:55 but, didn't feel a need to comment further........:scratchhead:


:iagree:
He needs to work things out with himself and digest the info.

Lastly I'll say to op, take your time and please go to some ic sessions then make a sound decision.
I wish you the best.


----------



## larry.gray

Deejo said:


> Was looking at that very thing myself.


Oh look, you got him to come back


----------



## tom67

larry.gray said:


> Oh look, you got him to come back



When he "comes back" he says many things and is to the point.
JMO.


----------



## RClawson

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation. I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. *Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere".* This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least...


Seriously? Time to move on.


----------



## manticore

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation. I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere". This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least...


for her the lie was 20 years ago so she had 20 years to get over the guilt for lying to you, your wife is taking the same stance that FWW take when they are caught of cheating many years ago.

they have many years to analyze, rationalyze and get over what they did, but for you is new and is not different that feeling it as if it happened the day you knew the truth.

as other users say, it could be benefical for you to brought her here, to see that she can not minimize her actions, and that actions that were made years ago feel as just as recently done for those who uncover the truth aboout the deceit.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

OP

You and and your wife both need to find really good counselling without any delay.


----------



## JCD

Coffee Amore said:


> That's what happens with these threads that get people all worked up. An original poster, usually someone without any posts here, throws in a hand grenade of a post then walks away probably amused by the reaction of those who post here.


Or are scared away by the posters who posit that the wife is seeing biker gangs or being filmed by the guy he is slightly jealous of...

OR

Guy suddenly has a ton of posters scream at him for NOT throwing his wife out of the house NOW, you wimp!


OR

He comes in and says 'I am OUTRAGED that my wife did this INCREDIBLY AWFUL THING' and the reaction of most posters is 'Say what?' Not getting that validation of their feelings that they feel they deserve.

Lots of reasons for drive by posters besides troll.


----------



## Caribbean Man

JCD said:


> Or are scared away by the posters who posit that the wife is seeing biker gangs or being filmed by the guy he is slightly jealous of...
> 
> OR
> 
> Guy suddenly has a ton of posters scream at him for NOT throwing his wife out of the house NOW, you wimp!
> 
> 
> OR
> 
> He comes in and says 'I am OUTRAGED that my wife did this INCREDIBLY AWFUL THING' and the reaction of most posters is 'Say what?' Not getting that validation of their feelings that they feel they deserve.
> 
> Lots of reasons for drive by posters besides troll.


Sometimes the poster remains throughout the thread and he is still called a troll ...


----------



## barbados

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation. I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere". This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. *Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now.* Sad to say the least...


OH, the awful sounds of trickle truth ! This may be the tip of the iceberg. She remembers. Maybe not every last thing, but she remembers enough.

You said in a previous post that you are 100% sure of her fidelity during your marriage. Well what about now ? 

Remember, this is a person who FALSELY CLAIMED RAPE ! 

She claimed rape to avoid telling you she had a sexual past!!

Sorry, that is not just some little tidbit. That is F'ed up ! 

Could this have something to do with why this guy from the past now tells you this stuff from 20 years ago now ? I sure as hell know that if I found out some woman from my past was telling people that I raped them, I would be out setting the record straight the best I could.


----------



## Cletus

RClawson said:


> Seriously? Time to move on.


Seriously? Never had a heated argument with your spouse?


----------



## treyvion

manticore said:


> for her the lie was 20 years ago so she had 20 years to get over the guilt for lying to you, your wife is taking the same stance that FWW take when they are caught of cheating many years ago.
> 
> they have many years to analyze, rationalyze and get over what they did, but for you is new and is not different that feeling it as if it happened the day you knew the truth.
> 
> as other users say, it could be benefical for you to brought her here, to see that she can not minimize her actions, and that actions that were made years ago feel as just as recently done for those who uncover the truth aboout the deceit.


She feels like you are gutting her to get the information out of her. It really is holding onto a lie, where she could choose to NOT protect her ego and out of love fill you in at a high level.

She will feel a little diminished letting it out, but as long as you don't slam her to the ground with the info and you love her you can grow together and she will be allright.

She doesn't feel like you have a right to know that, but the others do...


----------



## RClawson

Cletus said:


> Seriously? Never had a heated argument with your spouse?


Seriously? You discover your wife has lied to you for your entire marriage and her response is BFD get over it? Yes game over. Her words speak loudly in regards to her character which is hardly in question at this point.


----------



## Blonde

Seems similar to Granny7's thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-you-still-love-your-spouse-start-affair.html

Both are struggling with resentment @ a decades old offense. One difference the situation BBB is upset @ happened before they were married.

For both of them,my question is, "do you *LOVE* your spouse?"

_"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, *it keeps no record of wrongs.* " _ 1 Cor 13: 4-5


----------



## 2ntnuf

Blonde said:


> Seems similar to Granny7's thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-you-still-love-your-spouse-start-affair.html
> 
> Both are struggling with resentment @ a decades old offense. One difference the situation BBB is upset @ happened before they were married.
> 
> For both of them,my question is, "do you *LOVE* your spouse?"
> 
> _"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, *it keeps no record of wrongs.* " _ 1 Cor 13: 4-5


I lurv these passages, but they are ideals that we all aspire to fulfill. The thing is, forgiveness must take place or love cannot enter in a manner that the object will perceive as love. 

I don't mean forgiveness of the spouse alone. That comes after and is enabled by forgiveness of self. If we don't have it in us to figure out what we did that we need to forgive, how can we have the capability to truly and honestly forgive another? It's a tough concept to understand, but it's well worth considering.

In granny's case, we don't know for sure what she is harboring guilt about. We do know she is harboring resentment. Generally, resentment, while justifiable, is caused by blaming another because we can't see what we did as important enough to have caused any issues that would affect something so important to us. In her case, that important thing is fidelity. It's important to me, too, I may not have had to write that, but this transcends more than fidelity and is the foundation of all resentments. 

Justification causes us to turn a blind eye to our own failings and keeps us from hurting more by looking inward. It needs to be removed for any true healing and understanding to occur. Understanding leads to a different perspective. A different perspective leads to consideration of the spouse's opinion and feelings. 

Personal values, boundaries, religious beliefs, societal beliefs, can either justify, inhibit, or enhance our ability to find forgiveness and all the other things I wrote above. No one can convince another when they cannot convince themselves. Each has different goals and life experiences. Sometimes, what seems a minor problem for one, is a major problem for another. 

This is all evident in this thread and many others. If she does not allow herself to open up her thoughts, she will be stuck there for a long time. That doesn't mean she needs to reconcile and forgive. We only forgive what we are capable of. Does granny really know what she is capable of forgiving or is she stuck? I think she is stuck. We don't have to forgive everything someone else did to us, but it's healthy to forgive ourselves. One leads to the other, though. It's vicious. 


Edit: There has to be change, also. Personal change is all we can work on. We can't change anyone else. I forgot to include that. That is as much a key to a better, happier life, also.

Edit2: This is why I encouraged her to get counseling. They can help her with many things I don't understand how to help. They can make certain she is addressing herself and then her marriage relationship and beliefs. Not that her beliefs are wrong. It's just checking to make sure there is nothing to hamper a good solid decision she can live with.


----------



## RClawson

Blondie,

I subscribe to the principles that you are sharing but in a relationship both individuals have to be making steps in this healing process. I do not see much if any evidence of a "broken heart and a contrite spirit" on her part as long as you are going to apply Christian principles.

Of course my advice would be the the OP do all he can do to heal himself and his marriage but that supposes that his SO recognizes the great wrong she committed, seeks forgiveness and seeks to restore the harmony in the relationship. She needs to do a great deal of heavy lifting.

What it sounds like has happened is she got caught felt a bit badly and a week later wants DH to "just get over it".

Speaking as someone who has dealt with a very similar situation for over 25 years it is not that easy. Christian or not.


----------



## Blonde

It's a totally different analysis if the offense continues. eg the offense is fresh and ongoing if BBB's W is now in an EA/PA with this OM who shared this titillating bit of gossip.

If the offense is decades old, hanging onto resentment winds up hurting oneself. This is why they say forgiveness is not for the sake of the perpetrator but *for your own well being*.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Blonde said:


> It's a totally different analysis if the offense continues. eg the offense is fresh and ongoing if BBB's W is now in an EA/PA with this OM who shared this titillating bit of gossip.
> 
> If the offense is decades old, hanging onto resentment winds up hurting oneself. This is why they say forgiveness is not for the sake of the perpetrator but *for your own well being*.


Don't know if that was in response to my post or not. What you just said, is what I was trying to convey. Forgiveness is for the one who forgives. She must look within and forgive herself, then forgive him in as much as she can. She may not have done anything, but I bet she blames herself for something. She must find that to release resentment for him making her do something she regrets or something else. There is something. None of us is perfect. 

What her husband did was wrong and he is not remorseful, in the least. He needs to do the heavy lifting. She only needs forgive herself and what she can of his actions. That may mean, she just comes to a satisfying conclusion that she has to leave. It may mean she shows him what he does not understand. He is in denial about the events which led to her pain. He needs counseling as much as she does. He needs perspective. How do you suppose we work on him? Or, do you believe we can only work on ourselves and those here, open to suggestions?

Counseling is in order for all. I don't know how to help her get him there unless she sees an attorney, knows her rights and accepts what she will lose if this doesn't work, files for divorce, throws him out or gets her own place, and forces him, thereby, to look at what he might lose. Her family sides with him, so they won't be any help. Therefore, she must take the bull by the horns and do the only thing she can, work on herself.


----------



## RClawson

2ntnuf said:


> Don't know if that was in response to my post or not. What you just said, is what I was trying to convey. Forgiveness is for the one who forgives. She must look within and forgive herself, then forgive him in as much as she can. She may not have done anything, but I bet she blames herself for something. She must find that to release resentment for him making her do something she regrets or something else. There is something. None of us is perfect.
> 
> *What her husband did was wrong and he is not remorseful, in the least. He needs to do the heavy lifting. She only needs forgive herself and what she can of his actions. That may mean, she just comes to a satisfying conclusion that she has to leave. It may mean she shows him what he does not understand. He is in denial about the events which led to her pain. He needs counseling as much as she does. He needs perspective. How do you suppose we work on him? Or, do you believe we can only work on ourselves and those here, open to suggestions?*
> 
> Counseling is in order for all. I don't know how to help her get him there unless she sees an attorney, knows her rights and accepts what she will lose if this doesn't work, files for divorce, throws him out or gets her own place, and forces him, thereby, to look at what he might lose. Her family sides with him, so they won't be any help. Therefore, she must take the bull by the horns and do the only thing she can, work on herself.


Are we reading the same thread? What has he done to her?


----------



## sidney2718

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation.


Whoa! Slow down here. Are you telling us that you've known her supposed rapist for YEARS? And never did anything?

And how did you come to be talking to him about your wife's supposed rape? I could just be being very stupid, but there seems to me to be something curious here.



> I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere".


So after a week of continuously badgering her about this after she'd come clean and admitted she'd had a wild life before meeting you, she's had enough and snaps at you. And you are surprised? 

You two were not married when this happened. And you show every indication of NEVER EVER dropping the subject. What did you expect her to say that she's not already said? I don't get it. 



> This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know". It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least...


In other words she told you the truth and you keep questioning her over and over again, as if she could do something about the past. Or are you waiting for more titillating information from her?

If you want to keep your marriage, sit your wife down and in a non-accusatory voice tell her that you are sorry that you keep on questioning her and that it will stop. Then remind her (gently) that you were very upset about her sin of omission 20 years ago. And that's it.

But I do hope that you explain to us how this conversation with the "rapist" ever came about. It seems very strange that you would discuss such intimate information with someone outside the marriage. Or did he bring it up and if so, why and why did you even talk to him?


----------



## Blonde

RClawson said:


> Are we reading the same thread? What has he done to her?


nother thread @ BBB's female counterpart, Granny 7. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private...rt-affair.html


----------



## 2ntnuf

RClawson said:


> Are we reading the same thread? What has he done to her?


If you want specifics, I think you should ask her. This is perspective, again. What is not important to you, is to her. That's where she and he need counseling. They need to find out if it is important enough to ruin their marriage, and possibly, the rest of their lives.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

sidney2718 said:


> Whoa! Slow down here. Are you telling us that you've known her supposed rapist for YEARS? And never did anything?
> 
> And how did you come to be talking to him about your wife's supposed rape? I could just be being very stupid, but there seems to me to be something curious here.
> 
> 
> 
> So after a week of continuously badgering her about this after she'd come clean and admitted she'd had a wild life before meeting you, she's had enough and snaps at you. And you are surprised?
> 
> You two were not married when this happened. And you show every indication of NEVER EVER dropping the subject. What did you expect her to say that she's not already said? I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words she told you the truth and you keep questioning her over and over again, as if she could do something about the past. Or are you waiting for more titillating information from her?
> 
> If you want to keep your marriage, sit your wife down and in a non-accusatory voice tell her that you are sorry that you keep on questioning her and that it will stop. Then remind her (gently) that you were very upset about her sin of omission 20 years ago. And that's it.
> 
> But I do hope that you explain to us how this conversation with the "rapist" ever came about. It seems very strange that you would discuss such intimate information with someone outside the marriage. Or did he bring it up and if so, why and why did you even talk to him?


I'm wondering the same thing here.

This doesn't make sense AT ALL.

So your wife's supposed rapist is still in her life? Really?

So you either knew that this man supposedly raped your wife and you allowed him to remain in your life? :scratchhead:

You didn't know that this man was the one who supposedly raped your wife, but your wife did and accused him but kept him in her life? :scratchhead:

What's the deal here. This detail throws this thread into a whole new area.

PS if a man raped my wife (regardless of before us meeting) I would want to rearrange the twig and berries of the man, even if I was 80.


----------



## RClawson

sidney2718 said:


> Whoa! Slow down here. Are you telling us that you've known her supposed rapist for YEARS? And never did anything?
> 
> *She was not raped.*
> 
> And how did you come to be talking to him about your wife's supposed rape? I could just be being very stupid, but there seems to me to be something curious here.
> 
> 
> 
> So after a week of continuously badgering her about this after she'd come clean and admitted she'd had a wild life before meeting you, she's had enough and snaps at you. And you are surprised?
> 
> *Yes she completely misrepresented herself to him (absolutely understanding what his standard was) and he feels betrayed. Surprised?*
> 
> You two were not married when this happened. *And you show every indication of NEVER EVER dropping the subject. What did you expect her to say that she's not already said? I don't get it.
> *
> 
> *Lighten up Chester it has been a week. I think he expects her to show a bit of remorse for not being honest. If you do not get that then you may want to consider pondering it for just a little while longer.*
> 
> 
> In other words she told you the truth and you keep questioning her over and over again, as if she could do something about the past. Or are you waiting for more titillating information from her?
> 
> *Maybe who knows what she has hid now particularly with her current dismissive attitude about it all.*
> 
> If you want to keep your marriage, sit your wife down and in a non-accusatory voice tell her that you are sorry that you keep on questioning her and that it will stop. Then remind her (gently) that you were very upset about her sin of omission 20 years ago. And that's it.
> 
> *Thank you Dr. Brothers but I do not believe your diagnosis and prescription will do the trick. The "just get over it" approach from posters on this board is absurd and not helpful. "First see to understand and then seek to be understood". There's my prescription for you*
> 
> But I do hope that you explain to us how this conversation with the "rapist" ever came about. It seems very strange that you would discuss such intimate information with someone outside the marriage. Or did he bring it up and if so, why and why did you even talk to him?


*Hmmm maybe the "rapist" brought it up. Maybe he was throwing it in this guys face. Do we even know that he was the "rapist". Did his wife actually name her "fake rapist" and hubby and "rapist" were just hanging out tipping a couple of brews together? You suppose a great deal here.*


----------



## sidney2718

RClawson said:


> *Hmmm maybe the "rapist" brought it up. Maybe he was throwing it in this guys face. Do we even know that he was the "rapist". Did his wife actually name her "fake rapist" and hubby and "rapist" were just hanging out tipping a couple of brews together? You suppose a great deal here.*


I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the details. That would be a TJ. Let's just say that you and I don't agree about what was posted and let it go.


----------



## samyeagar

RClawson said:


> *Hmmm maybe the "rapist" brought it up. Maybe he was throwing it in this guys face. Do we even know that he was the "rapist". Did his wife actually name her "fake rapist" and hubby and "rapist" were just hanging out tipping a couple of brews together? You suppose a great deal here.*


How I pictured this latest revelation was she told him the rape story and never named names. They ran into this guy in some sort of social setting and the guy mentioned that he and the wife had been together. Maybe even in a way such as "Yeah, you're a lucky guy BBR, when we were together she wasn't ready to settle down at all." or something along those lines. Completely innocent. BBR went "Huh?" and asked his wife about it, and that is when it all started to fall apart.

Clearly I am just making the above scenario up, but my point is, this kind of thing does not have to have some sinister plot to it. Completely innocent, and even reasonable situation that can blow up a marriage because of one likely innocent lie told twenty years earlier.


----------



## Nucking Futs

2ntnuf said:


> I lurv these passages, but they are ideals that we all aspire to fulfill. The thing is, forgiveness must take place or love cannot enter in a manner that the object will perceive as love.
> 
> I don't mean forgiveness of the spouse alone. That comes after and is enabled by forgiveness of self. If we don't have it in us to figure out what we did that we need to forgive, how can we have the capability to truly and honestly forgive another? It's a tough concept to understand, but it's well worth considering.
> 
> *In granny's case, we don't know for sure what she is harboring guilt about. We do know she is harboring resentment. Generally, resentment, while justifiable, is caused by blaming another because we can't see what we did as important enough to have caused any issues that would affect something so important to us. In her case, that important thing is fidelity. It's important to me, too, I may not have had to write that, but this transcends more than fidelity and is the foundation of all resentments.
> 
> Justification causes us to turn a blind eye to our own failings and keeps us from hurting more by looking inward. It needs to be removed for any true healing and understanding to occur. Understanding leads to a different perspective. A different perspective leads to consideration of the spouse's opinion and feelings. *
> 
> Personal values, boundaries, religious beliefs, societal beliefs, can either justify, inhibit, or enhance our ability to find forgiveness and all the other things I wrote above. No one can convince another when they cannot convince themselves. Each has different goals and life experiences. Sometimes, what seems a minor problem for one, is a major problem for another.
> 
> This is all evident in this thread and many others. If she does not allow herself to open up her thoughts, she will be stuck there for a long time. That doesn't mean she needs to reconcile and forgive. We only forgive what we are capable of. Does granny really know what she is capable of forgiving or is she stuck? I think she is stuck. We don't have to forgive everything someone else did to us, but it's healthy to forgive ourselves. One leads to the other, though. It's vicious.
> 
> 
> Edit: There has to be change, also. Personal change is all we can work on. We can't change anyone else. I forgot to include that. That is as much a key to a better, happier life, also.
> 
> Edit2: This is why I encouraged her to get counseling. They can help her with many things I don't understand how to help. They can make certain she is addressing herself and then her marriage relationship and beliefs. Not that her beliefs are wrong. It's just checking to make sure there is nothing to hamper a good solid decision she can live with.


Maybe you'd like to explain where you're trying to go with this, because the part I bolded is pure blame shifting. I'm sure Granny7 is surprised to find out that it's her fault her husband cheated on her. Maybe you could give us some examples of something a bs could do that's worthy of being cheated on.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Nucking Futs said:


> Maybe you'd like to explain where you're trying to go with this, because the part I bolded is pure blame shifting. I'm sure Granny7 is surprised to find out that it's her fault her husband cheated on her. Maybe you could give us some examples of something a bs could do that's worthy of being cheated on.


I can't because that's not what I meant. I'm sure you know that a bad marriage can lead to a decision to cheat. That doesn't blame the BS, which I am one, for the decision to cheat. It does put some responsibility on the BS for the poor conditions in the marriage. This isn't in all cases, naturally. It is the case in many.


----------



## 2ntnuf

So, is BBR, Granny7's spouse? Is that what is going on here?


----------



## Cletus

Blonde said:


> For both of them,my question is, "do you *LOVE* your spouse?"


Not only do you love your spouse, but do you love your spouse as the fallible human that they are as much as the ideal which you thought they met? 

Finding out your spouse is imperfect is always tough. It is also inevitable and humanizing, for the both of you.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think someone needs to post the facts as they are right now, for clarity. I am seeing two stories merging into one. There needs to be some kind of explanation of what is going on. If Granny7's case has nothing to do with BBR, then it needs to be clarified. If it does, there needs to be a merge of both sides. 

This is ridiculous. Someone needs to get the guts to come out with all of the truth or this is going to end badly.


----------



## RClawson

Concur 100%


----------



## Nucking Futs

2ntnuf said:


> I think someone needs to post the facts as they are right now, for clarity. I am seeing two stories merging into one. There needs to be some kind of explanation of what is going on. If Granny7's case has nothing to do with BBR, then it needs to be clarified. If it does, there needs to be a merge of both sides.
> 
> This is ridiculous. Someone needs to get the guts to come out with all of the truth or this is going to end badly.


Granny7's case has nothing to do with BBR. Her case got mentioned when she commented on his case.


----------



## Blonde

2ntnuf said:


> So, is BBR, Granny7's spouse? Is that what is going on here?


No, they're twins!  

or they are just two TAM members with parallel stories...

I'm just very curious if all the men on this thread who sound so angry and hostile toward BBB's wife would be equally angry at Granny7's husband (for a 25 yo screw-up he can never live down...)???


----------



## 2ntnuf

Nucking Futs said:


> Granny7's case has nothing to do with BBR. Her case got mentioned when she commented on his case.


Thank you.


----------



## Cletus

Blonde said:


> I'm just very curious if all the men on this thread who sound so angry and hostile toward BBB's wife would be equally angry at Granny7's husband (for a 25 yo screw-up he can never live down...)???


I can only hope that they never fall off that white horse, lest they be held to the standard they apply here.


----------



## Blonde

2ntnuf said:


> . There needs to be some kind of explanation of what is going on. If Granny7's case has nothing to do with BBR, then it needs to be clarified. If it does, there needs to be a merge of both sides. .



So sorry, my fault! :smnotworthy:

I am a global thinker/ reader and saw parallels between how Granny 7 feels and how BBB feels about decades old offense(s) and got to wondering if the reaction from readers would depend on the gender of the offender?

/tangent

Back to BBB...

ETA: BBB, you should read Granny 7's thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-you-still-love-your-spouse-start-affair.html


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Blonde said:


> It's a totally different analysis if the offense continues. eg the offense is fresh and ongoing if BBB's W is now in an EA/PA with this OM who shared this titillating bit of gossip.
> 
> If the offense is decades old, hanging onto resentment winds up hurting oneself. This is why they say forgiveness is not for the sake of the perpetrator but *for your own well being*.


but this isn't an old offense. offense has been going on for 20 years, ended about a week ago.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Blonde said:


> So sorry, my fault! :smnotworthy:
> 
> I am a global thinker/ reader and saw parallels between how Granny 7 feels and how BBB feels about decades old offense(s) and got to wondering if the reaction from readers would depend on the gender of the offender?
> 
> /tangent
> 
> Back to BBB...
> 
> ETA: BBB, you should read Granny 7's thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-you-still-love-your-spouse-start-affair.html


That one response of mine was about what I think she needs to do. You or any others may not agree. That's fine. I don't have the answer for her. She must go to counseling, and an attorney, to figure out what is important, what she might lose, and what she can do to help her and her marriage. I hope she has done so. She will have to decide what is best for her. We cannot decide that. She will then have to follow her best guess and decisions to whatever she thinks is her happiness. Other than that, she can't forgive things she feels are very important to her. They are important to her. They are not, to her husband or children, apparently. She needs to decide for herself, to become a strong woman, like you, Blonde, and find out what she needs and what she is willing to do about it, and accept whatever results from her actions. She really needs counseling.


----------



## NovellaBiers

Blonde said:


> So sorry, my fault! :smnotworthy:
> 
> I am a global thinker/ reader and saw parallels between how Granny 7 feels and how BBB feels about decades old offense(s) and got to wondering if the reaction from readers would depend on the gender of the offender?
> 
> /tangent
> 
> Back to BBB...
> 
> ETA: BBB, you should read Granny 7's thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-you-still-love-your-spouse-start-affair.html


This seems to be a common practice on TAM. Female waywards or even normal posters who are women are treated way harsher than male ones. The only exception being the "OM" AKA the other man which gets harsh treatment usually.

ETA: you only need to look just below this post to see this in action.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NovellaBiers said:


> This seems to be a common practice on TAM. Female waywards or even normal posters who are women are treated way harsher than male ones. The only exception being the "OM" AKA the other man which gets harsh treatment usually.


Again, no clue, but make an inflammatory remark. This is not helpful to anyone. Please try not to do this.


----------



## Blonde

2ntnuf said:


> That one response of mine was about what I think she needs to do. You or any others may not agree. That's fine. I don't have the answer for her. She must go to counseling, and an attorney, to figure out what is important, what she might lose, and what she can do to help her and her marriage. I hope she has done so. She will have to decide what is best for her. We cannot decide that. She will then have to follow her best guess and decisions to whatever she thinks is her happiness. *Other than that, she can't forgive things she feels are very important to her.* They are important to her. They are not, to her husband or children, apparently. She needs to decide for herself, to become a strong woman, like you, Blonde, and find out what she needs and what she is willing to do about it, and accept whatever results from her actions. She really needs counseling.


Other than the bolded, I agree. Counseling and self evaluation would be very helpful

I disagree with the bolded because I have traveled that road (forgiving when the offender is not remorseful and does not understand how much it hurt and wants to rugsweep it). Forgiving was very freeing for ME so I know they are right when they say forgiveness is not for the offender but for my own well being.


----------



## treyvion

NovellaBiers said:


> This seems to be a common practice on TAM. Female waywards or even normal posters who are women are treated way harsher than male ones. The only exception being the "OM" AKA the other man which gets harsh treatment usually.
> 
> ETA: you only need to look just below this post to see this in action.


It's a lot of jilted males on here.

We used to have some feminist on here, that would take every opportune moment to bash male betrayed and sexless spouses.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Blonde said:


> Other than the bolded, I agree. Counseling and self evaluation would be very helpful
> 
> I disagree with the bolded because I have traveled that road (forgiving when the offender is not remorseful and does not understand how much it hurt and wants to rugsweep it). Forgiving was very freeing for ME so I know they are right when they say forgiveness is not for the offender but for my own well being.


You have to read the sentence after that along with it. Also, I forgave as much as I could, x2, because I really really effin' hated her very much. That was why it was good for me. I still hate her, but not like I did. Understand now?  

Edit: My hatred for her, was consuming ME. Justified or not, I had to forgive as much as possible to stop being consumed.


----------



## treyvion

2ntnuf said:


> You have to read the sentence after that along with it. Also, I forgave as much as I could, x2, because I really really effin' hated her very much. That was why it was good for me. I still hate her, but not like I did. Understand now?
> 
> Edit: My hatred for her, was consuming ME. Justified or not, I had to forgive as much as possible to stop being consumed.


That "hatred" for her and if you group "women" with her behavior towards you will keep you from moving on.


----------



## 2ntnuf

treyvion said:


> That "hatred" for her and if you group "women" with her behavior towards you will keep you from moving on.


Therefore, I had to consider what I did in the relationship, to screw up the marriage. Her screwed up mind made the choice to cheat, not mine. That is on her alone. I did not force her to cheat. My part, only forced her to make SOME decision. What that decision was, is HER choice.

Edit: I had to consider my own part, to be able to forgive her, for some of her part. I can only forgive the decision to cheat, if she says she is sorry, accepts responsiblity(edit) for that decision, and makes amends. That will never happen in my lifetime. It is possible, but extremely highly unlikely.

Edit2: Treyvion, I never hated all women, but I did have a growing mistrust for men and women, both. I could only trust a little, after I knew some for a while. That is not healthy, at all. I had to do something. I hope that makes sense. There are a few men AND women, I will not be able to forgive, unless they do the same as I suggested x2 would have to do for me to forgive her cheating.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Blonde said:


> So sorry, my fault! :smnotworthy:
> 
> I am a global thinker/ reader and saw parallels between how Granny 7 feels and how BBB feels about decades old offense(s) and got to wondering if the reaction from readers would depend on the gender of the offender?
> 
> /tangent
> 
> Back to BBB...
> 
> ETA: BBB, you should read Granny 7's thread. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...-you-still-love-your-spouse-start-affair.html


But isn't there a difference (based on my understanding of both)? Granny 7 has known about the offense for years. BBR just found out now. So while the offense was years ago, it is new to him. This is not him spending the last 20 years refusing to let something go. This is him learning about something now that occurred 20 years ago and trying to process it. 

This is not to say that he should not take his time and try to work through this with her help. Only that these two situations seem different to me.


----------



## Thundarr

Blonde said:


> I'm just very curious if all the men on this thread who sound so angry and hostile toward BBB's wife would be equally angry at Granny7's husband (for a 25 yo screw-up he can never live down...)???


I don't know the details of the other thread. I think I'd come to the same conclusion about either gender being deceptive about issues important to either. It's a big deal that she fooled him and it's new information to BBR since he just found out. One week is premature to decide she can never live it down.

I'm not in the "dump her" camp. I'm more in the "deception is a big deal" camp. I imagine how it would feel. I'd be hurt and disappointed and a little disconnected while gathering my thoughts about it. Then I'd be angry that I was tricked and didn't have a choice. In the end her thinking it was a trivial mistake and that I should just get over it would make things much worse. It would mean our principles are not in sync. The particular lie points to that here already. Probably wouldn't end a happy marriage over it though. I mean twenty years of marriage counts for a lot.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

NovellaBiers said:


> This seems to be a common practice on TAM. Female waywards or even normal posters who are women are treated way harsher than male ones. The only exception being the "OM" AKA the other man which gets harsh treatment usually.
> 
> ETA: you only need to look just below this post to see this in action.


relax. there is gender bias throughout our society, and thus not surprisingly all over TAM. female bias toward women, male bias toward men.


----------



## treyvion

2ntnuf said:


> Therefore, I had to consider what I did in the relationship, to screw up the marriage. Her screwed up mind made the choice to cheat, not mine. That is on her alone. I did not force her to cheat. My part, only forced her to make SOME decision. What that decision was, is HER choice.
> 
> Edit: I had to consider my own part, to be able to forgive her, for some of her part. I can only forgive the decision to cheat, if she says she is sorry, accepts responsiblity(edit) for that decision, and makes amends. That will never happen in my lifetime. It is possible, but extremely highly unlikely.


If it's going to be a distraction, degredation or future problem in your life you have to move on.


----------



## BradWesley

nuclearnightmare said:


> relax. there is gender bias throughout our society, and thus not surprisingly all over TAM. female bias toward women, male bias toward men.


That being said, it seems that many guys on TAM should trade in their trousers for a skirt.


----------



## 2ntnuf

treyvion said:


> If it's going to be a distraction, degredation or future problem in your life you have to move on.


If what's a distraction, degredation or future problem? I'm lost.


----------



## treyvion

BradWesley said:


> That being said, it seems that many guys on TAM should trade in their trousers for a skirt.


Many of the men where "white knights", so they would not support the man, but in cases an evil doing woman until it happened to them. When it happened to them, they supported other men in similar positions.


----------



## 2ntnuf

nuclearnightmare said:


> relax. there is gender bias throughout our society, and thus not surprisingly all over TAM. female bias toward women, male bias toward men.


What gender bias are you speaking of? I don't understand how two different sets of couples has anything to do with my remarks. 

Because I said Granny7 must forgive herself for things she holds against her? Read further to understand. We all do things that are not so good for a marriage. If you don't accept that, you would have to believe you are the perfect husband/wife.


----------



## BradWesley

treyvion said:


> Many of the men where "white knights", so they would not support the man, but in cases an evil doing woman until it happened to them. When it happened to them, they supported other men in similar positions.


You missed the whole point!


----------



## Thor

nuclearnightmare said:


> but this isn't an old offense. offense has been going on for 20 years, ended about a week ago.



:iagree:

I am in a somewhat similar situation to BBR, with my wife having made some significant deceptions and omissions from the beginning of our relationship. She chose not to clarify or correct the information. It is, in fact, an ongoing deception. Every single day is an opportunity to correct the record, to come clean, to confess to the lies.

Every day the lie continues is another nail in the coffin of the relationship. The lie does not get smaller with time, it gets bigger.

For BBR this is not only new information, but the information results in him questioning every moment of their relationship. What was ever true? What was ever real? If she was able to fool him so completely about those things, what else has she fooled him about which he doesn't know about yet?

Her attitude right now is one of "F.U. You have no right to know anything about me. I not only stand by what I did, but I would do it again".

Who knows if there is more still hidden from BBR?

Though this is not a PA, the emotional effects on BBR are exactly the same as a long term PA lasting the entire length of his marriage. The only way to recover is to go through exactly the same kind of process as R from such a PA, including her demonstrating remorse, full open honesty, and plenty of therapy for all involved.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NovellaBiers said:


> This seems to be a common practice on TAM. Female waywards or even normal posters who are women are treated way harsher than male ones. The only exception being the "OM" AKA the other man which gets harsh treatment usually.
> 
> *ETA: you only need to look just below this post to see this in action.*





2ntnuf said:


> Again, no clue, but make an inflammatory remark. This is not helpful to anyone. Please try not to do this.


My response here, above, to what you accuse me of in the edit makes no reference to you being a woman or a man. It only states you like to come into threads and drop a bomb. I'm certain the mods have seen this before. I've been in this thread for a long time, trying to participate and be helpful with my own experiences. What you have said here, has helped to sidetrack this thread, even further than it was. 

Novella, I'd appreciate it if you would back off. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings by telling you that you were not worthy of being stalked, in the P & R thread. It's time to let it go, don't you think? Look within yourself to realise what you did wrong and accept and make amends. I have done so here.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

2ntnuf said:


> What gender bias are you speaking of? I don't understand how two different sets of couples has anything to do with my remarks.
> 
> Because I said Granny7 must forgive herself for things she holds against her? Read further to understand. We all do things that are not so good for a marriage. If you don't accept that, you would have to believe you are the perfect husband/wife.


I was just responding directly to the last post by novellabiers. not meaning to reference any other posters remarks...


----------



## RClawson

sidney2718 said:


> I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the details. That would be a TJ. Let's just say that you and I don't agree about what was posted and let it go.


No lets just say you posted and overwhelming amount of conjecture. And that is the nice word for it.


----------



## RClawson

Thor said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I am in a somewhat similar situation to BBR, with my wife having made some significant deceptions and omissions from the beginning of our relationship. She chose not to clarify or correct the information. It is, in fact, an ongoing deception. Every single day is an opportunity to correct the record, to come clean, to confess to the lies.
> 
> Every day the lie continues is another nail in the coffin of the relationship. The lie does not get smaller with time, it gets bigger.
> 
> For BBR this is not only new information, but the information results in him questioning every moment of their relationship. What was ever true? What was ever real? If she was able to fool him so completely about those things, what else has she fooled him about which he doesn't know about yet?
> 
> Her attitude right now is one of "F.U. You have no right to know anything about me. I not only stand by what I did, but I would do it again".
> 
> Who knows if there is more still hidden from BBR?
> 
> Though this is not a PA, the emotional effects on BBR are exactly the same as a long term PA lasting the entire length of his marriage. The only way to recover is to go through exactly the same kind of process as R from such a PA, including her demonstrating remorse, full open honesty, and plenty of therapy for all involved.


Abso fn lutely!


----------



## RClawson

samyeagar said:


> How I pictured this latest revelation was she told him the rape story and never named names. They ran into this guy in some sort of social setting and the guy mentioned that he and the wife had been together. Maybe even in a way such as "Yeah, you're a lucky guy BBR, when we were together she wasn't ready to settle down at all." or something along those lines. Completely innocent. BBR went "Huh?" and asked his wife about it, and that is when it all started to fall apart.
> 
> Clearly I am just making the above scenario up, but my point is, this kind of thing does not have to have some sinister plot to it. Completely innocent, and even reasonable situation that can blow up a marriage because of one likely *innocent lie* told twenty years earlier.


I agree with everything but the bold is a bit of a stretch.


----------



## Csquare

Oh brother. Sounds like she is gas lighting him. BBR has a right to the details of her life that he needs, as her husband, to truly understand who she is.

Right now, he knows that she is a person of questionable character, who is willing to lie to the person closest to her. He believed he had married a woman with similar values to his, now he finds 20 years later she lied about those values. Seems fair that he should uncover the extent of their disjunction. Where else do they differ? In what areas are they truly compatible?

It would take some time to unravel all of this. For her to say "get over it" shows a callousness to his feelings. I don't think he can begin to *forgive* until he knows the extent of the breach.

BBR, take your time to figure this out. Breathe. Spend time loving your children. Maybe the bond of parenting is itself strong enough to help you overcome this crisis.


----------



## Cletus

So if upon hearing the news of his wife's past, had BBR laid on the floor, screamed at the top of his lungs, kicked and thrashed around, and soiled himself, would anyone stand up and say that is was a mature, loving, reasonable response to the bad news? 

Not every sin is equivalent. Not every reaction is defensible. 

Does his wife's heretofore unrelated past rise to the level of
1. Divorce?
2. Revenge?
3. Obsession/compulsion?

These are reasonable topics to discuss that don't minimize BBR's feelings. It's hard to change how you feel about something, but it's equally important to have some sense of proportionality and maturity in responding to the crime.

We don't remove limbs or impose capital punishment on petty thieves, at least not in the U.S.


----------



## sidney2718

samyeagar said:


> How I pictured this latest revelation was she told him the rape story and never named names. They ran into this guy in some sort of social setting and the guy mentioned that he and the wife had been together. Maybe even in a way such as "Yeah, you're a lucky guy BBR, when we were together she wasn't ready to settle down at all." or something along those lines. Completely innocent. BBR went "Huh?" and asked his wife about it, and that is when it all started to fall apart.
> 
> Clearly I am just making the above scenario up, but my point is, this kind of thing does not have to have some sinister plot to it. Completely innocent, and even reasonable situation that can blow up a marriage because of one likely innocent lie told twenty years earlier.


Since the thread jack this is probably going to be lost in the noise, but here goes anyway. 

Your hypothesis is possible. But I have a hard time with the OP and his wife running into this guy after 20 years and the other guy coming out with some comment on the wife's former "social life".

And if the OP was not with his life (which I think he implied in his original post) then I have even more trouble with the scenario.

What I'd like is for the OP to clarify what happened. It may just be my misunderstanding, but until it is clarified I'm thinking trollish thoughts.


----------



## samyeagar

RClawson said:


> I agree with everything but the bold is a bit of a stretch.


The reason I used the word "innocent" is because I see no indication of any malice. All indications are that she was simply young and dumb, in love and afraid to lose him. Probably had little experience in making a long term relationship work, and so really didn't know the long term consequences. Her behavior between then and when this blew up supports this because she was an exemplary wife, no bait and switch, no entrapment.


----------



## Blonde

Tall Average Guy said:


> But isn't there a difference (based on my understanding of both)? Granny 7 has known about the offense for years. BBR just found out now.


That is a good point!


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> That is a good point!


This is perhaps the most important thing people miss when it comes to a partners past, and why the way in which it is disclosed is so very important.

While it IS one partners past, they have had years to process it, live with it, accept it, move on. However, it becomes the new partners present. They haven't had the benefit of time, or even understanding of the emotional mindset the other had at the time.

The new partner should be afforded the same luxury of time to process it and deal with it.


----------



## Jung_admirer

We are all allowed to establish our own Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms (NUTs). I may not have the same NUTs as you, but I can respect your right to create your own. The OP had a NUT related to the sexual character of his chosen partner. We do not need to agree with this NUT, but if we respect the OP, we honor his right to create this boundary. NUTs are boundaries that we do not allow to be crossed. The OP's wife knew of this NUT, and chose to deceive to gain his consent to marriage .... this is betrayal pure and simple.

All betrayal must be addressed in a marriage. It is an attachment injury that will not heal on its own. There certainly is a long history of marital happiness that needs to be weighed by the OP. It seems clear to me that the OP feels a BS. We in TAM do not get to tell the OP how he should be feeling and I am profoundly disappointed with the number of rugsweeping suggestions.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

samyeagar said:


> The reason I used the word "innocent" is because I see no indication of any malice. All indications are that she was simply young and dumb, in love and afraid to lose him. Probably had little experience in making a long term relationship work, and so really didn't know the long term consequences. Her behavior between then and when this blew up supports this because she was an exemplary wife, no bait and switch, no entrapment.


I could buy this if she had lied about one drunken fumble that she deeply regretted. But calling it rape seems a step beyond, which will also like have garnered her sympathy as the victim. Or maybe not.

Heck, I don't know. Assuming this is legit, I think he needs some counseling, perhaps marriage counseling together, and her to explain to help them get through this. She has 20 years of being a great wife on her side. But he is looking at that anew in view of this pretty major lie. He needs to let his emotions calm and figure out whether he can deal with it.


----------



## Thundarr

Cletus said:


> So if upon hearing the news of his wife's past, had BBR laid on the floor, screamed at the top of his lungs, kicked and thrashed around, and soiled himself, would anyone stand up and say that is was a mature, loving, reasonable response to the bad news?
> 
> Not every sin is equivalent. Not every reaction is defensible.
> 
> Does his wife's heretofore unrelated past rise to the level of
> 1. Divorce?
> 2. Revenge?
> 3. Obsession/compulsion?
> 
> These are reasonable topics to discuss that don't minimize BBR's feelings. It's hard to change how you feel about something, but it's equally important to have some sense of proportionality and maturity in responding to the crime.
> 
> We don't remove limbs or impose capital punishment on petty thieves, at least not in the U.S.


heh. Nice analogies. I've said from early in this thread that this kind of lie is a big deal yet even I can see that two decades of marriage is a big deal too. The far left (forigive her man) and the far right (give her the boot man) seem to be missing that it's not a simple problem. If we were a fly on the wall then we'd have better answers .


----------



## Thundarr

Jung_admirer said:


> We are all allowed to establish our own Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms (NUTs). I may not have the same NUTs as you, but I can respect your right to create your own. *The OP had a NUT related to the sexual character of his chosen partner. We do not need to agree with this NUT, but if we respect the OP, we honor his right to create this boundary.* NUTs are boundaries that we do not allow to be crossed. The OP's wife knew of this NUT, and chose to deceive to gain his consent to marriage .... this is betrayal pure and simple.
> 
> All betrayal must be addressed in a marriage. It is an attachment injury that will not heal on its own. There certainly is a long history of marital happiness that needs to be weighed by the OP. It seems clear to me that the OP feels a BS. We in TAM do not get to tell the OP how he should be feeling and I am profoundly disappointed with the number of rugsweeping suggestions.


:iagree:
Profound wisdom hidden underneath NUT speech. It's a jewel.


----------



## Thor

Cletus said:


> .
> 
> Does his wife's heretofore unrelated past rise to the level of
> 1. Divorce?
> 2. Revenge?
> 3. Obsession/compulsion?
> 
> These are reasonable topics to discuss that don't minimize BBR's feelings. It's hard to change how you feel about something, but it's equally important to have some sense of proportionality and maturity in responding to the crime.


Wedding vows are supposed to mean something. While legally they don't any more, I took the words seriously.

Love, honor, cherish. To have and to hold. Forsaking all others.

As it turns out, BBR's wife was in violation of those words from the beginning. It is not an exaggeration to say the marriage contract was null from the start.

BBR certainly has every right to decide to stay with his wife now. He can look at the entirety of the marriage and decide things have been good. He can decide the family is strong.

But he would also be justified in determining, if he does, that she is not who she pretended to be and that he is not willing to continue a marriage with the real her.


----------



## Thundarr

Thor said:


> Wedding vows are supposed to mean something. While legally they don't any more, I took the words seriously.
> 
> Love, honor, cherish. To have and to hold. Forsaking all others.
> 
> As it turns out, BBR's wife was in violation of those words from the beginning. It is not an exaggeration to say the marriage contract was null from the start.
> 
> BBR certainly has every right to decide to stay with his wife now. He can look at the entirety of the marriage and decide things have been good. He can decide the family is strong.
> 
> But he would also be justified in determining, if he does, that she is not who she pretended to be and that he is not willing to continue a marriage with the real her.


This sounds so personal which I understand. Maybe it hits a nerve. Yet it could be an exaggeration to say his marriage is null since we weren't part of it and we don't know very much about it. I agree with a lot of what you said here but something feels angry and baggage driven rather than objective. I'm actually not disagreeing so much as noticing the gnarled teeth angry message that I get from it. What do I know though? Maybe it's not that way to anyone else.


----------



## syhoybenden

Quoted from another thread:

" Default Re: Why would I want to ask about my wife's sexual past?
Quote:
I understand why women wouldn't want pursue this subject. There's a negative attached to their past and a positive attached to ours (so it seems... don't blame me for noticing it). So don't ask, don't tell makes a lot of sense to the ladies. And it's pretty easy for us guys to ask about it for the same reasons. Women are judged for it while we are not.

I think it is 10 times more of a touchy discussion for women than it is men. Many women have been in pretty bad relationships with the 'bad boy' in high school / college which woke them up and they grew from it to finally meet a nice guy who can still be stern when need be.. but ultimately.. nice.

My aunt worked with teens--very much so with girls ages 16-24--and what I collected from her was that girls like bad boys and they don't realize how bad they are until they are completely in love with them. Girls will do just about anything to please these guys regardless if the girl enjoys it or not. Eventually, it takes a couple of these guys until it finally hits them that hey--I'm not a piece of ass and I deserve better.

And then in some cases on here, the nice guy that married her who really never pushes her to do things she doesn't like pops the question about her past. Now, she either has to lie or tell him in hopes that he won't flip out that she did anal, bj, faciel, etc etc (did not care for it) but did it anyway because that was her idea of pleasing someone then whereas it's different now.

Women normally have a pretty good idea of what there man was doing just based on him telling her if he was single or not. There is not even a need for a guy to tell his history.. for most men.. you can just imagine what the normal average guy did in his early years."

So maybe she feels "Alright so I got caught with my hand in the cookie jar 20 years later. So get over it already."

Maybe she's just that deep.


----------



## Thundarr

syhoy, just for clarity's sake. The first part of your quote is a snippet from a comment and not the entirety. Here is another snippet from the same quote 



Thundarr said:


> Double standard aside, we can't read minds. We can (and should) date long enough to know the person we're with before marriage but at some point there's still an expectation that our partner knows to mention anything that's just flat out crazy from their past. I chose to be direct and ask..... is there anything flat out crazy from your past that I should know about honey?


----------



## Deejo

Forgive me please, as I've admitted in the past, I simply cannot get my head around this issue. But I'm trying.

Of the cases of read, I have to say, the script looks remarkably similar. 

Otherwise wonderful woman, mother and wife of many years is found out to have not been forthcoming about her sexual history, more to the point, husband thought she was a virgin, or very limited experience, and effectively finds out that she wasn't a virgin, or had more experience than she indicated.

And is now utterly and completely emotionally devastated.

The term I've seen used is retroactive jealousy.

Honest question, is there any consideration on the part of the men affected by this that their spouse IS in fact the wonderful woman they married and have created a life with, and was quite simply young, and afraid of losing out on those things with YOU, if she told you the truth?

I guess all I'm saying is this seems to be an incredibly black or white situation for men struggling with this. She's a saint or a wh0re.

Just wondering if you can/do/want to see the simple truth; she's a person.

She made a grave error. One that arguably both parties seem to have benefited from tremendously.

If you can't forgive, then why stay and punish her? Punish yourself?

I'm not suggesting rug-sweeping, but quite simply of all of these stories I read, the men simply CANNOT let it go.

I can understand being angry and enraged and disappointed, but those aren't places that you can remain to focus on throughout the rest of your marriage.


----------



## Cletus

Jung_admirer said:


> We are all allowed to establish our own Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms (NUTs). I may not have the same NUTs as you, but I can respect your right to create your own. The OP had a NUT related to the sexual character of his chosen partner. We do not need to agree with this NUT, but if we respect the OP, we honor his right to create this boundary. NUTs are boundaries that we do not allow to be crossed. The OP's wife knew of this NUT, and chose to deceive to gain his consent to marriage .... this is betrayal pure and simple.


Those who don't wish to have their NUTS inspected ought not be posting in an advice forum, where we enjoy, nay revel, in telling others how they should behave and think.

How many posts start out with "Am I wrong", or "Am I overreacting". People want feedback from others in similar situations as a barometer against their own positions. 

No one is obligated to listen to the advice they encounter here, but anyone whose NUTS haven't changed and matured over a 20 year marriage has failed to grow - as a human, and as a spouse. Being brought up short to reflect on your NUTS once in a while is a good thing.


----------



## Thunder7

Deejo said:


> Forgive me please, as I've admitted in the past, I simply cannot get my head around this issue. But I'm trying.
> 
> Of the cases of read, I have to say, the script looks remarkably similar.
> 
> Otherwise wonderful woman, mother and wife of many years is found out to have not been forthcoming about her sexual history, more to the point, husband thought she was a virgin, or very limited experience, and effectively finds out that she wasn't a virgin, or had more experience than she indicated.
> 
> And is now utterly and completely emotionally devastated.
> 
> The term I've seen used is retroactive jealousy.
> 
> Honest question, is there any consideration on the part of the men affected by this that their spouse IS in fact the wonderful woman they married and have created a life with, and was quite simply young, and afraid of losing out on those things with YOU, if she told you the truth?
> 
> I guess all I'm saying is this seems to be an incredibly black or white situation for men struggling with this. She's a saint or a wh0re.
> 
> Just wondering if you can/do/want to see the simple truth; she's a person.
> 
> She made a grave error. One that arguably both parties seem to have benefited from tremendously.
> 
> If you can't forgive, then why stay and punish her? Punish yourself?
> 
> I'm not suggesting rug-sweeping, but quite simply of all of these stories I read, the men simply CANNOT let it go.
> 
> I can understand being angry and enraged and disappointed, but those aren't places that you can remain to focus on throughout the rest of your marriage.


To answer your question, yes, there is consideration that their wife is a wonderful person. That's one reason why someone approaching this from an adult perspective realizes this is 'my issue', not yours, when it comes to past experiences. That's where I am. I am looking at the BIG picture. And that is that my wife has been a fantastic wife and partner for many years. Do I suspect that she was not totally forthcoming with me regarding her past - yes. But, I am also not willing to throw away what we have because of it.

But, that brings us to the question of lying. And what is a lie. Is purposeful omission of information a lie, or just that, purposeful omission? And there are varying degrees of lying, as well. 
- 'I was raped before we met', but it never happened - HUGE lie, BIG deal. Speaks to overall trustworthiness and the potential for future deception.

- 'I was a virgin when we met', but it was untrue - Big lie, but, although bad, not quite as bad, IMO. Still a lie, though.

- 'I slept with X number of men before we met', when in actuality it was X x 2. Again, a lie. On par with the virginity thing.

- 'So, how many men have you been with?'. 'Oh, only a few', when in reality it could have been the entire HS or college football team. With no specifics given, or asked for, this is a deception. But, here's where we get into 'none of your business' territory. Does one party have the right to know this information, and does the other have the right to keep it from them. 

I know, some will say a lie is a lie is a lie. But these examples are all varying degrees of untruthfulness. I'm not sure this helps, or clarifies in any way.

Again, I fully realize this RJ thing is my cross to bear, not my wife's. We had the talk years ago and I was fine with it. Information came out later that may change the facts I thought I knew. But, is it worth my jeopardizing our relationship in the pursuit of this info? Thus far, I have decided it is not. So I haven't. But, understand, someone suffering with these RJ thoughts believes they were not allowed to make an informed decision on the person they chose to spend their life with. Facts or details were withheld that may have altered the initial course of the relationship. 'Being sold a bill of goods' is the expression I have heard used in these instances. 

Again, not sure if this helps. It just is. I am choosing not to be a slave to RJ. It is very difficult at times. Like now. Typing this puts it all in the forefront of my mind (trigger). I literally get the cold shakes when I delve deeply into this topic. Not fun. Believe me, Deejo, I wish I could process information like you do. It would make life much easier at times.


----------



## norajane

Thunder7 said:


> Again, I fully realize this RJ thing is my cross to bear, not my wife's. We had the talk years ago and I was fine with it. Information came out later that may change the facts I thought I knew. But, is it worth my jeopardizing our relationship in the pursuit of this info? Thus far, I have decided it is not. So I haven't. *But, understand, someone suffering with these RJ thoughts believes they were not allowed to make an informed decision on the person they chose to spend their life with. Facts or details were withheld that may have altered the initial course of the relationship. 'Being sold a bill of goods' is the expression I have heard used in these instances. *
> 
> Again, not sure if this helps. It just is. I am choosing not to be a slave to RJ. It is very difficult at times. Like now. Typing this puts it all in the forefront of my mind (trigger). I literally get the cold shakes when I delve deeply into this topic. Not fun. Believe me, Deejo, I wish I could process information like you do. It would make life much easier at times.


I guess I can understand that new knowledge tearing someone up inside if the marriage is bad. But in cases where the marriage is good, it seems like it wouldn't feel so much like being sold a bill of goods, since everything has been so good. It just seems like an extreme reaction in a marriage that has otherwise been so fulfilling.

If you've been happily living in a house for 20 years without issue, do you suddenly become extremely miserable because you found out the square footage was somewhat off what you were told when you fell in love with it and moved in? 

That's where I get lost with all this. YMMV.


----------



## 2ntnuf

It's only retroactive jealousy if he wants to do the things she did. I don't think he did. I don't think he does or he could divorce her immediately. He hasn't.

I think it's more about his perception of what he might have had an opportunity to get, which was what he thought he was getting, but didn't because of the lie. 

Yes, he did have a pretty dog-gone good marriage for twenty years or so. The thing is, he believed he got that woman of his dreams. What happened was, reality hit him smack in the face and shattered his perception. His perception was false. Few men or women are virgins as was discussed here and explained. Our definitions of virginity vary. 

So, OP thought he was investing in his idea of marriage, viginity, whatever. Because of the deceit, he really was not. 

He must change his perception of reality. That's a tall order for a man who justified all of his life, what he believed to be true. He must now determine if he can change his thoughts and beliefs. He must now consider if he can live with the truth and continue knowing that he believed a lie. Men like to base their pride in themselves on truth, not deception. I think he believes all things in his life, are now a lie. 

It's going to take quite a bit of thought and counseling to look at all the major things in his life from a different perspective and find reason different to his original beliefs, to know his is worthy of trusting.............himself.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

larry.gray said:


> :iagree:
> 
> People seem to be in two camps on this. We don't know where she stands. The only way he's going to know is to ask her. The problem is that trust is short right now because of the past lie.
> 
> BBR needs to rebuild trust. He hasn't said if there are any other hints she's lied. I'm sure he's replaying the whole marriage, wondering what other lies there are. Her coming clean without any trickle truth is a good first start.
> 
> I'd suggest he let her know that his biggest issue is the loss of trust. I'd suggest that he tell her that the thing she's got to do the most is be always honest. Never tell him what she thinks he wants to hear, or what gets her the least trouble. Also add that any further lie no doubt will get caught down the road, the best policy is to just be honest.
> 
> That said, I think the first questions he wants answered are what her views on the subject are. *"Does she feel ashamed of what she did?"* Tell her it's OK to answer no if it's the truth - that what she can feel bad about is how it made BBR feel, but that's not the same as internalized shame.


When she made the original confession, she was crying and explained to me that she was embarrassed and ashamed of her past and did not want to lose me. She also told me that the past 20 years of our marriage have been like a dream for her and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't feel the same way. You are right, I have been replaying the whole marriage wondering what other lies there could have been. We agreed on a fresh start but I told her to please let me know everything because I seriously cannot handle anymore surprises to which she replied, *"What you don't trust me anymore?"* I don't think that she realizes the full extent of her initial lie about being raped. The sad part is that we did discuss her rape in detail back then but come to find out that all of it was made up is pretty sad & sickening at the same time.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

It sounds to me that it is going to take her time, as well as you, to think this through clearly.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> We agreed on a fresh start but I told her to please let me know everything because I seriously cannot handle anymore surprises to which she replied, *"What you don't trust me anymore?"* I don't think that she realizes the full extent of her initial lie about being raped. The sad part is that we did discuss her rape in detail back then but come to find out that all of it was made up is pretty sad & sickening at the same time.


What was your response to her question?

What do you envision with this "fresh start"? What does she envision?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I told her to please let me know everything because I seriously cannot handle anymore surprises to which she replied, *"What you don't trust me anymore?"*


I hope your reply to this was something along the lines of "Of course I don't trust you, I just found out you looked me in the eye and lied to me apparently without remorse until you were caught. You made up a horrific story and assured me it was the truth, and you did it deliberately to fool me into doing something that you knew I would not do if I knew the truth. You perpetuated that lie for 20 years. I have no reason to trust you now."

That she could even say that shows she, like many of the posters on this thread, have no idea just how betrayed you feel.


----------



## treyvion

Let her apologize again for the rape scenario and deception. Let her explain why she did it, and that she wanted to impress you. That she has been faithful since this point.


----------



## clipclop2

People don't understand how a single lie can cast doubt on everything they have ever done and will ever do.

That's why someone's word, or good name, has always been stressed as invaluable. 

Maybe we need to be sure to raise this with our children more. We talk about it casually but then something like this occurs and you can really see how important it is.

She can't get it because she had all the info and feels she lived up to her vows and has made up for the lie by being the kind of wife she knew he wanted.

She isn't a *****.

But alleging rape is serious. Someone else's reputation was killed to save hers. At her own hand.

Is there any truth to that story? 

Does she make negative remarks about people in general? Is she a mean person? Angry?

Sexual abuse in her background?

I really think IC followed by MC would help.

She screwed up bad. There is probably background stuff for her to put to rest.

For the OP, why not ask her for a lie detector test? Clear up your big questions and heal. Live the next 20 in peace.


----------



## Thunder7

norajane said:


> I guess I can understand that new knowledge tearing someone up inside if the marriage is bad. But in cases where the marriage is good, it seems like it wouldn't feel so much like being sold a bill of goods, since everything has been so good. It just seems like an extreme reaction in a marriage that has otherwise been so fulfilling.
> 
> If you've been happily living in a house for 20 years without issue, do you suddenly become extremely miserable because you found out the square footage was somewhat off what you were told when you fell in love with it and moved in?
> 
> That's where I get lost with all this. YMMV.


And that's why I also said in this post that I refuse to be a slave to RJ. It's MY choice. Some days are harder than others. But, I get why sometimes things aren't fully disclosed. I have chosen not to bring it up or to make an issue of it. So far.


----------



## F-102

We agreed on a fresh start but I told her to please let me know everything because I seriously cannot handle anymore surprises to which she replied, *"What you don't trust me anymore?"* 

It sounds like there will be more "surprises" in store.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

clipclop2 said:


> People don't understand how a single lie can cast doubt on everything they have ever done and will ever do.
> 
> That's why someone's word, or good name, has always been stressed as invaluable.
> 
> Maybe we need to be sure to raise this with our children more. We talk about it casually but then something like this occurs and you can really see how important it is.


I did a thread on lying here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...s-why-people-lie-how-much-acceptable-you.html seems many justify white lying...or making excuses for their lies...(to spare someone else's feelings for example).. well I feel there are other ways - learning to be tactful will help.. articulating hard truths with some compassion.. but Lying.. I hate it..Though in saying this... It's paramount to not expect perfection from ANYONE...no matter who they are - could be the Preacher..(they sneak Porn too after all) ...lying and secrets -they carry power...and cause an emotional divide in our relationships, an inner turmoil holding on to them.. it's just not worth it. 

We NEED to be accepted in our imperfections too..

You mentioned kids here.. ...we must be careful to allow our kids to approach us with ANYTHING without flipping out... ...cause when you go there....they learn to hide , to act in whatever keeps the peace...why would they want Mom & Dad harping down their throat or a sermon.. 

Our 2nd son started lying in elementary school...a few things at home..fighting with siblings -but I knew it was HIM...this is how I handled it.. when there was a squabble & the answer wasn't clear -him or his brother....I let him know - I saw him as "the little boy that cried wolf " at that point.. why should I trust what he had to say.

I explained to him he will ALWAYS ALWAYS get in more trouble for LYING / covering something up (this taints the trust & I wanted to trust him)...over being HONEST before me & his dad... he started saying ...."*It was me Mom...I did it*"... I looked him in the eyes -I hugged him ...*I thanked him even*... he learned the value of doing the right thing- even when it is difficult..when he was GUILTY ...Lesson learned...this sort of communication is very dear to me. We don't expect perfection (none of us has a halo)... we even expect some unruliness at times...but honesty..YES!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Deejo said:


> Forgive me please, as I've admitted in the past, I simply cannot get my head around this issue. But I'm trying.
> 
> Of the cases of read, I have to say, the script looks remarkably similar.
> 
> Otherwise wonderful woman, mother and wife of many years is found out to have not been forthcoming about her sexual history, more to the point, husband thought she was a virgin, or very limited experience, and effectively finds out that she wasn't a virgin, or had more experience than she indicated.
> 
> And is now utterly and completely emotionally devastated.
> 
> The term I've seen used is retroactive jealousy.
> 
> Honest question, is there any consideration on the part of the men affected by this that their spouse IS in fact the wonderful woman they married and have created a life with, and was quite simply young, and afraid of losing out on those things with YOU, if she told you the truth?
> 
> I guess all I'm saying is this seems to be an incredibly black or white situation for men struggling with this. She's a saint or a wh0re.
> 
> Just wondering if you can/do/want to see the simple truth; she's a person.
> 
> She made a grave error. One that arguably both parties seem to have benefited from tremendously.
> 
> If you can't forgive, then why stay and punish her? Punish yourself?
> 
> I'm not suggesting rug-sweeping, but quite simply of all of these stories I read, the men simply CANNOT let it go.
> 
> I can understand being angry and enraged and disappointed, but those aren't places that you can remain to focus on throughout the rest of your marriage.


I think the "young and immature" defense of her has some merit. My problem is that she still maintained the (huge) lie despite all her maturing in the meantime! why not clear the air with him a few yrs into the marriage......


----------



## 2ntnuf

nuclearnightmare said:


> I think the "young and immature" defense of her has some merit. My problem is that she still maintained the (huge) lie despite all her maturing in the meantime! why not clear the air with him a few yrs into the marriage......


Some might say, she did not tell him because she was insecure.

Some might say, she did not tell him because she couldn't control his reaction. 

She might say she was afraid of him.

Some might say, she was naive throughout her marriage and just wanted to love him and only him the best way she knew how.

Only she knows the answer. I don't know how knowing this will help, unless BBR wants to consider divorce as an option. I don't think he's considered that, only a revenge affair. I am against that choice. 

Ultimately, he has to decide what he wants to ask. He has to decide what is important to him. I personally think he should check into counseling and spend some time there. I think, once he gets his wits about him, he should see an attorney to know what the possible outcome would be. I think he should then consider all sides and see what might make him the happiest. I also think he should step away from her and do a very light 180, till he figures out what he wants. I don't think it would hurt to get out and spend time with male friends and enjoy himself a bit, while thinking about this. 

However, I do think he might be best served by friends of his marriage. Talking to other women might help him to know what his options are, but that isn't the best thing to do, unless the conversation is kept to topics not revolving around his marriage or his emotions. Something innocuous might be best. He would need very good friends of the marriage to pull him back if they think he is going too far.

I don't think that last paragraph is possible, but I thought I would put it out there to see what folks think. Go..........


----------



## sidney2718

F-102 said:


> We agreed on a fresh start but I told her to please let me know everything because I seriously cannot handle anymore surprises to which she replied, *"What you don't trust me anymore?"*
> 
> It sounds like there will be more "surprises" in store.


I can hardly wait to find out what the next chapter in this thrilling saga will bring!


----------



## Thor

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> We agreed on a fresh start but I told her to please let me know everything because I seriously cannot handle anymore surprises to which she replied, *"What you don't trust me anymore?"*


BTDT. My wife's words were "YOU have a trust problem!", as if there was something wrong with me.

I'd bet there is a lot more out there she hasn't told you about. It could be from before you met, it could be during your relationship. But there is more out there.

How do I know? She is being evasive. She is being defensive, and she is making accusations at you in order to derail you from pursuing conversation with her.

Twice I gave my wife the "get out of jail" card, where I told her we could work through anything, and so please tell me if there is anything more out there. I also told her if I found anything else other than from her, it was a deal breaker.

And she did not believe me. There were a couple more lies and deceptions, though they were of fairly minor proportions. Still not good, but in the grey area due to being minor or being old and possibly she didn't remember what she had told or not told me. Then some other bigger ones came along.

You've got to not be Nice about this with her. She has to know she screwed the pooch as bad as is possible. She has to know this has you on the edge of leaving the marriage. She has to know she made a choice to be dishonest with you.

Don't let her think this isn't a big deal, and don't let her think it wasn't her fault.

Are there other events during your marriage which _may_ have involved some form of deception or omission or lie?

IMO the only way for you to heal is for her to tell you everything. How many other men she was with, and when. This is exactly like a recovery from an affair. She has to understand how badly she messed things up, regardless of her motivations at the time.

(I am not convinced she is sorry at all for what she did. She shows no signs of remorse. She is upset at being caught, and she is embarrassed.)


----------



## larry.gray

:iagree:

You've got to tell her that what will destroy her marriage isn't what has or hasn't happened, but the lack of trust. Explain that hearing things down the road will set you right back, and the lies need to end.


----------



## larry.gray

I'll repeat the suggestion BBR: Have your wife signup and post here. I think it's worthwhile for her to read what people have said, because she isn't getting it yet.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yet you say all these wonderful things about her....you know you really put her in an awful position..... *I'm gonna have to agree with some of the others....your rigidity was TOO MUCH here...as one who cared myself ....it wouldn't have been the end all...I don't think people should throw Reason to the wind and dismiss all these other wonderful qualities you listed here in a potential partner....
> 
> It's so obvious...you came on too strong -and she knew it was LIE or BE DUMPED/ Goodbye forever to the man of her dreams....
> 
> Agonizing comes to mind...what some may DO for love....
> 
> I would advise any young man in your position to NOT come on this strongly as they are nearly asking to be lied too*... except for a handful with impeccable integrity - it's just not a wise way to go..
> 
> Better to be approachable in all things with a potential partner, if nothing else... so they can feel comfortable to BE who they are, share where they have been ...to avoid this very unfortunate scenario.


SA,

:iagree: You words are helping me see her reason for lying to me so long ago. You are so right in every aspect of this situation and yes there are NO limits to what one will do for love so I am starting to understand. This forum and everyone's advice/comments have been therapeutic for me to say the least. I think the time has come for me to change my name from Broken Beyond Repair to Broken But Repairable. Thank-you from the bottom of my heart. I truly do appreciate it.


----------



## JCD

Thor said:


> BTDT. My wife's words were "YOU have a trust problem!", as if there was something wrong with me.
> 
> I'd bet there is a lot more out there she hasn't told you about. It could be from before you met, it could be during your relationship. But there is more out there.


OR . . . she really doesn't want to talk about it for a wide variety of reasons which have nothing to do with infidelity. For one thing, OP seems sexually obsessive. If he is this strung up about a single incident BEFORE he was married, what do you want to bet that he has a raft of other sexual hang ups and issues. Does she _want_ to open that can of worms? Who would?




> You've got to not be Nice about this with her. * She has to know she screwed the pooch as bad as is possible. *She has to know this has you on the edge of leaving the marriage. She has to know she made a choice to be dishonest with you.
> 
> Don't let her think this isn't a big deal, and don't let her think it wasn't her fault.


Homey says WHAT!? There is so much wrong with this statement that is very hard to know where to begin.

Let's start with the superlatives: 'screwed the pooch as bad as is possible'.

Well, right off the top of my head:

1) she could have actually, you know, CHEATED instead of having a little sexual escapade BEFORE marriage. I think that would be worse.

2) She could run off with the kids with or without another man.

3) She could abandon her spouse and kids, emptying the bank accounts and setting up a new life somewhere else.

4) She could cut her husband off from all love, affection and intimacy both inside and outside the bedroom.

5) Considering his religious scruples, she could become a Satanist.

6) She could roundly humiliate and disparage our man Flynt's sexual prowess to all his friend's wives.

7) She could lie MULTIPLE TIMES about IMPORTANT ISSUES.

8) She could burn down the house.

9) She could cause one of their children to die.

10) She could tell him that she didn't love, she never loved him and the past 20 years was a barely palatable lie.

11) She could have told him, yes, she was a virgin, and taking his virgin ass to their honeymoon suite, had sex with him anyway. He wouldn't know what a virgin felt like. How would he? OR, he might be able to tell. But now they are married and it's consummated. What are you going to do now, Big Guy?

That is JUST off the top of my head and each is worse than telling *A* Lie from BEFORE marriage.

Just about every spouse lies, if nothing else, by sins of omission. That skirt she paid way too much for. A car bump which 'happened when she was shopping.' That bet on the Steelers which broke the budget. "I dunno where the money went, honey." 

Divorce over a single lie from twenty years ago? From a GOOD marriage? If he is foolish enough to do that, he gets all the joyless nights that he deserves.

So let's stop hyperventilating for a little while.



> Are there other events during your marriage which _may_ have involved some form of deception or omission or lie?


What a marvelous idea! Their marriage is already shaken. Let's have him second guess every second of 20 years to see if we can make things worse. 

Could YOUR marriage survive such scrutiny? Could anyone's?

Unless a host of other incidents IMMEDIATELY leap to mind, he shouldn't psychoanalyze his life like that. Ask any cop. People are poor witnesses and their memories cloud EASILY with the passage of time. The merest suggestion can make one alter memories quite easily. History rewriting: it's not just for Cheaters anymore.



> IMO the only way for you to heal is for her to tell you everything. How many other men she was with, and when. This is exactly like a recovery from an affair. She has to understand how badly she messed things up, regardless of her motivations at the time.



I agree, at least in part. I think he needs to have an idea of how dishonest she was. I am very sensitive to false rape allegations.

HOWEVER. If I were a woman and suddenly my hubby started GRILLING me about 'how many men? Huh? Huh? How many? Ten, twenty? Did you blow them? Did you do anal? Huh? What other sexual tricks do you know that you never did with me?' Guess what? I would not EVER share the details. Some guys can be obsessive and _creepy_ about this crap. And you know who is the worst about such things?

Guys who are obsessed about virginity in marriage.

Sorry, but it's true. There are GOOD ways to deal with this. Right now, she is feeling attacked. He can get the truth or he can (ahem) Badger her and weaken his marriage. Maybe they need to do ALL these revelations in front of a third party so he doesn't unintentionally go off the rails.

I think he should get information, but not details. TWENTY YEARS. A kid would be almost out of college in that amount of time. 




> (I am not convinced she is sorry at all for what she did. She shows no signs of remorse. She is upset at being caught, and she is embarrassed.)



Sigh. How often have you written this? If she is not a shivering blubbering wreck, offering her husband instant and total capitulation without a single shred of self respect, she is ALWAYS accused of not being remorseful.

Not everyone does things that way.

I am not attacking you, but this was, once again, TWENTY YEARS AGO. 

And frankly, it was BEFORE he had any business in her life. She could have and maybe should have, told him 'I am a good woman and want to marry you. That is all you need to know'

I feel sorry for this guy, and he's taken a blow. But it was A lie.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> SA,
> 
> :iagree: You words are helping me see her reason for lying to me so long ago. You are so right in every aspect of this situation and yes there are NO limits to what one will do for love so I am starting to understand. This forum and everyone's advice/comments have been therapeutic for me to say the least. I think the time has come for me to change my name from Broken Beyond Repair to Broken But Repairable. Thank-you from the bottom of my heart. I truly do appreciate it.


Bravo!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

JCD said:


> And frankly, it was BEFORE he had any business in her life. She could have and maybe should have, told him 'I am a good woman and want to marry you. That is all you need to know'


Actually, I am pretty sure the lie about being raped was while they were dating, so I think it did occur when he "had any business in her life." 

This isn't a small white lie or omission about the price of a dress she bought. Comparing it to that is no better than calling the the worst betrayal she could have done.


----------



## Blonde

JCD said:


> Ask any cop. People are poor witnesses and their memories cloud EASILY with the passage of time. The merest suggestion can make one alter memories quite easily. History rewriting: it's not just for Cheaters anymore.


^^ This is a big reason why these threads bother me. My memory for events so long ago is very vague.

Another reason they bother me is that I am aware of some of these situations where the wife is an acknowledged CSA victim. AND the H's they are dealing with come off sometimes as *extremely* angry and vindinctive.

Part of a CSA victim is quite frozen in childhood. An angry man is VERY scary and she is going to lie and probably be very conflict avoidant because that is the only way she knows of to feel safe.

Just sayin'


----------



## Thor

JCD said:


> OR . . . she really doesn't want to talk about it for a wide variety of reasons which have nothing to do with infidelity. For one thing, OP seems sexually obsessive. If he is this strung up about *a single incident* BEFORE he was married, what do you want to bet that he has a raft of other sexual hang ups and issues. Does she _want_ to open that can of worms? Who would?


We have no specificity about what happened before they were married, but I do not believe it was _a single incident_ given BBR's description in his first post. I don't believe she had PiV just once with just one man.



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me.


Secondly, to me, this has next to nothing to do with her not being a virgin. While there is some component of emotional distress for BBR with the mind movies, the bigger issue are the TWO BIG LIES themselves, both perpetuated over 20 years. These were big lies about big issues which have a very large importance to BBR.




JCD said:


> Divorce over a single lie from twenty years ago? From a GOOD marriage? If he is foolish enough to do that, he gets all the joyless nights that he deserves.


I don't advocate D at this time. I believe though that the wife in this scenario is showing the exact same behavior as an unrepentant cheater. BBR was betrayed deeply, which requires the same R process as if she had cheated. She definitely perpetrated an infidelity to her marriage vows.






JCD;6854137
What a marvelous idea! Their marriage is already shaken. Let's have him second guess every second of 20 years to see if we can make things worse.
Could YOUR marriage survive such scrutiny? Could anyone's?
Unless a host of other incidents IMMEDIATELY leap to mind said:


> I asked the question in such a way to get just that kind of response out of him. Either nothing comes to mind, or there are numerous things which have bothered him over the years but which seemed minor.
> 
> Did she make a single horrible decision all those years ago? If so, this is an outlier in her behavior. It is something which can be overcome _if she is able to participate in MC meaningfully_.
> 
> Or is this indicative of an underlying belief system of hers? Does she believe she has the right to use deception to manipulate or control him? Does she believe he has no right to know anything she doesn't want him to know? Does she believe _What He Doesn't Know Can't Hurt Her_? All of those are to me huge red flags that their value systems are in fatal conflict.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Broken.Beyond.Repair said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me.
> 
> 
> 
> HOWEVER. If I were a woman and suddenly my hubby started GRILLING me about 'how many men? Huh? Huh? How many? Ten, twenty? Did you blow them? Did you do anal? Huh? What other sexual tricks do you know that you never did with me?' Guess what? I would not EVER share the details. Some guys can be obsessive and _creepy_ about this crap. And you know who is the worst about such things?
> 
> Guys who are obsessed about virginity in marriage.
Click to expand...

It is his right to have his belief systems, including valuing virginity in his bride. It is his right to choose not to marry an otherwise 100% perfect and wonderful woman if she is not a virgin. It is his right to ask his bride to be any questions he wants to.

If her background or beliefs are in conflict with his, and she thus believes he would not marry her because of it, _she is probably correct_. That is, their value systems conflict to the point of making marriage impossible.

The right thing to do is not to lie to him in order to fool him into believing she is someone she is not. The right thing to do is to tell him the truth and see if he can deal with it.

I am not passing judgment on either BBR or his wife for their value systems about sex or virginity. They are both entitled to their own values, and they have free choice on sexuality.

But his wife did screw the pooch badly, as badly as having cheated on him during the marriage imho. She lied about her past in order to control him. She lied about being raped, which must have caused a lot of emotional distress through the years for BBR.


----------



## JCD

Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, I am pretty sure the lie about being raped was while they were dating, so I think it did occur when he "had any business in her life."
> 
> This isn't a small white lie or omission about the price of a dress she bought. Comparing it to that is no better than calling the the worst betrayal she could have done.


I am saying that calling THIS lie the worst betrayal she could engage in is to remove meaning from the term. 

I am saying that saying A lie can destroy a marriage's trust is a silly statement. People judge and weigh the grievousness of the lie regularly and see if it is a deal breaker or not.

This isn't a good lie. It is not a light lie. It is bad lie...BUT

It is also a lie that he needs to take in context. Yes, he gets to weigh all these mental movies which he is suffering from NOW.

BUT, if one was truly honest, one needs also measure the TWENTY YEARS OF GOODNESS this lie brought him.

That is a rather large spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. He needs to weigh his ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP, not just one thing said out of love, or shame, or...well...or from a while back.

Get to the bottom of it. Do it gently. There is hardly any sort of urgency on the matter two decades later.


----------



## JCD

You said this



Thor said:


> I don't advocate D at this time. I believe though that the wife in this scenario is showing the exact same behavior as an unrepentant cheater. BBR was betrayed deeply, which requires the same R process as if she had cheated. She definitely perpetrated an infidelity to her marriage vows.


But before you said this:



> She has to know this has you on the edge of leaving the marriage.


That sounded like you were advocating making a rather poorly thought out threat but maybe you meant it another way.

Let me offer you a slightly different perspective:

"I was wildly sexually promiscuous as a young woman (i.e. had more than two sex partners according to the mores of twenty years ago). I was sort of naïve, and fell into a bad crowd because I was pretty. So I did things that weren't such a good idea."

"Then I met this great guy who wasn't like them. I wanted to leave all the bad things I did behind. I didn't like all the things I was asked to do. But BBR wasn't like that. He seemed like a REALLY GREAT GUY. So I accepted his approaches and I started to fall in love."

"Then he lays on me that we can never ever be together because he won't let go of things I can't undo. And I can't change his mind either. I know him! So in the THREE SECONDS I had in this conversation, I panicked and told him a story. Once I did that, I got locked into it."

"Now I've spent the last twenty years, being the best wife I can to him. Twenty years of sweaty socks. Twenty years of breakfasts and vacuuming, and taking care of the kids. They haven't always been amazing and we've had our friction, but I worked my butt off to make him happy, because it also made ME happy."

"Now, this one little lie has my husband of twenty years, whom I treated like gold, whom I had children for, now he looks at me like a *****, throws questions at me constantly and tells me he wants to CHEAT ON ME. I owe it to him! And he asks me filthy questions about the things I'd rather forget."

I am not saying he should forget about it. There are two sides to every story and just characterizing it as 'evil woman' isn't going to get very far. Few people are evil.

Please note that this assumes she did a LOT. I'm guessing it wasn't all that much. But neither of us knows.


----------



## Thor

I still disagree with your conclusions if we take the wife's position as you proposed. She in fact did do things, according to your hypothetical quote, which BBR believed to be grossly incompatible with his value system. Which means that BBR would never have stayed with her, and never would have chosen freely to marry her.

Her lie wasn't just a cover up of her past behavior which she felt shame and guilt over. Her lie took away his free choice. 

Another possible path would have been she told him the truth when they first started having discussions. She may have said she regretted what she did, her values have changed. She may have explained her mindset at the time. She may have answered his questions honestly and completely. This path would have built trust and emotional intimacy.

He may or may not have been able to deal with it anyways. He may have chosen to leave the relationship upon finding out about her past. It would have been his right to choose either path.

I still very much oppose characterizing what she did as "one little lie". It was two lies, both of which are very large. BBR gets to define what his values are, not us and not her.


----------



## Nucking Futs

JCD said:


> You said this
> 
> 
> 
> But before you said this:
> 
> 
> 
> That sounded like you were advocating making a rather poorly thought out threat but maybe you meant it another way.
> 
> Let me offer you a slightly different perspective:
> 
> *"I was wildly sexually promiscuous as a young woman (i.e. had more than two sex partners according to the mores of twenty years ago). I was sort of naïve, and fell into a bad crowd because I was pretty. So I did things that weren't such a good idea."
> 
> "Then I met this great guy who wasn't like them. I wanted to leave all the bad things I did behind. I didn't like all the things I was asked to do. But BBR wasn't like that. He seemed like a REALLY GREAT GUY. So I accepted his approaches and I started to fall in love."
> 
> "Then he lays on me that we can never ever be together because he won't let go of things I can't undo. And I can't change his mind either. I know him! So in the THREE SECONDS I had in this conversation, I panicked and told him a story. Once I did that, I got locked into it."
> 
> "Now I've spent the last twenty years, being the best wife I can to him. Twenty years of sweaty socks. Twenty years of breakfasts and vacuuming, and taking care of the kids. They haven't always been amazing and we've had our friction, but I worked my butt off to make him happy, because it also made ME happy."
> 
> "Now, this one little lie has my husband of twenty years, whom I treated like gold, whom I had children for, now he looks at me like a *****, throws questions at me constantly and tells me he wants to CHEAT ON ME. I owe it to him! And he asks me filthy questions about the things I'd rather forget."*
> 
> I am not saying he should forget about it. There are two sides to every story and just characterizing it as 'evil woman' isn't going to get very far. Few people are evil.
> 
> Please note that this assumes she did a LOT. I'm guessing it wasn't all that much. But neither of us knows.


If she said what I highlighted this would probably all be over now. But she didn't. She said this:



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation. I'm not sure of his motivation but it feels shameful for me to know that another man knew more about my wife than I did. *Today, my wife told me that her past is "none of my business" and that "if I can't get over it, I should go find my happiness elsewhere".* This was very hurtful because it's only been a little over a week since I found out and already she seems to be giving up. *Since the original confession, she answers all my questions with either "I forgot" or "I don't know".* It was her lie but I feel as if I'm fighting to keep my marriage now. Sad to say the least...


----------



## JCD

Nucking Futs said:


> If she said what I highlighted this would probably all be over now. But she didn't. She said this:


She is resentful that twenty years of good service seem to mean nothing to him. It is perhaps not fair to him, but again, it probably isn't fully fair to her either.

I think he approached this badly, PARTICULARLY the 'Hey...now I get to sleep with someone else' thing.

How did we get THERE in one easy step? Makes her wonder how good her marriage is if he can so quickly step outside it.

This is glossed over. We get weak 'no, you shouldn't do that' without giving any thought to how it looks to the wife. He should have been taken to task a lot harder, not for thinking that, but for actually SAYING that.

Funny how something said thoughtlessly can have such a horrible impact on a marriage.

Where have we seen that before...?


----------



## JCD

Thor said:


> I still disagree with your conclusions if we take the wife's position as you proposed. She in fact did do things, according to your hypothetical quote, which BBR believed to be grossly incompatible with his value system. Which means that BBR would never have stayed with her, and never would have chosen freely to marry her.
> 
> Her lie wasn't just a cover up of her past behavior which she felt shame and guilt over. Her lie took away his free choice.
> 
> Another possible path would have been she told him the truth when they first started having discussions. She may have said she regretted what she did, her values have changed.  She may have explained her mindset at the time. She may have answered his questions honestly and completely. This path would have built trust and emotional intimacy.
> 
> He may or may not have been able to deal with it anyways. He may have chosen to leave the relationship upon finding out about her past. It would have been his right to choose either path.
> 
> I still very much oppose characterizing what she did as "one little lie". It was two lies, both of which are very large. BBR gets to define what his values are, not us and not her.


Okay, she HORRIBLY violated his value system.

Maybe now that the deed is done, his religion might have a few more guidelines with words starting with 'F' which may help him in this affair...unless he is only reading from the Second Book of Opinions.

All I am seeing you say is 'She's awful and she needs to be a wreck before you take her back.'

That isn't very helpful...or likely.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

JCD said:


> I am saying that calling THIS lie the worst betrayal she could engage in is to remove meaning from the term.


And I am saying that likening it to how much you paid for a skirt is to also remove meaning from the term.

I agree with the rest of what you say (though do think that a single lie can destroy trust in some instances). He should take his time, let his emotions settle and really work through everything.



> Get to the bottom of it. Do it gently. There is hardly any sort of urgency on the matter two decades later.


My issue is that it is not two decades old to him. It is right now to him. So yes do it gently and kindly to get understanding. But do it right away, because it is not trivial.


----------



## Nucking Futs

JCD said:


> She is resentful that twenty years of good service seem to mean nothing to him. It is perhaps not fair to him, but again, it probably isn't fully fair to her either.
> 
> I think he approached this badly, PARTICULARLY the 'Hey...now I get to sleep with someone else' thing.
> 
> How did we get THERE in one easy step? Makes her wonder how good her marriage is if he can so quickly step outside it.
> 
> This is glossed over. We get weak 'no, you shouldn't do that' without giving any thought to how it looks to the wife. * He should have been taken to task a lot harder, not for thinking that, but for actually SAYING that.
> *
> Funny how something said thoughtlessly can have such a horrible impact on a marriage.
> 
> Where have we seen that before...?


Where do you get that he said that? His post says he's thinking about it, not that he told her that.



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> If I would have known the truth about her past back then, I would have passed up this "10" in a heartbeat and she knew this. Her looks initially attracted me to to her but her caring nature, her unconditional loving ways and she's quite frankly one of the most down to earth and smartest human beings that I have ever met which is part of why it makes it so hard to conceive what she was capable of before she met me. I learned of her sexual past from a third party and confronted her the same day. At first, she would not admit it and then she began to ask me, "Who told you?" After 15 minutes of denials, she broke down and confessed. As I listened to her, I felt as if I had been with a stranger for the past 20 years of my life. I am still so deep in love with her but I really don't want to dwell in this sadness too much longer. *I've seriously been considering getting even with her (not to the extent of her sexual past) by having sex with just one other woman.* I know it will be very difficult for me as I have only been with my wife but I think that it might help me get over these feelings. I don't know if I can push myself to do this but I know that I have to do something or this sadness will consume me.


And by the way, this is my reply from the other thread to that:



Nucking Futs said:


> You feel your wife wronged you by lying to you about her sexual past, so you want to get even with her by cheating on her? Talk about giving up the moral high ground.
> 
> I agree that she wronged you by lying to you. That wrong would pale in comparison to what you're contemplating doing to her. It would be better for both of you for you to just divorce her rather than cheating on her, but it would be best to do neither and instead get counseling, both individual and marital.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think beliefs surrounding our personal value is what the issue is. He may now value himself and his marriage as less than what he payed for it. 

Anyway, no one knows for certain. 


I have thought about what Blonde mentioned. It does seem strange that there are few posts by BBR. If someone is trying to teach the group a lesson, it's not working so well. It will only work if we truly believe. The only way for that to happen is to experience life in the same way as the anonymous guide understands it. 

Does that mean a married man should separate and live the life they are trying to understand and believe in? 

I think something like that would be some odd sort of passive aggressive. There is no way to know what someone else believes. We must make a decision based on our individual values and beliefs. We must accept that decision when it is challenged by others. 

What's left then? Live with it. 

BBR, all the power is in your hands. You have the power to forgive, following your beliefs. You have the power to love and hate. You can choose what directions you take. 

I can't see destroying twenty years of a good life over a lie, but that depends on what you believe. It may easily be worth it to you and we don't have the right to try to force you to believe anything else. We do have a right to say that we don't want you to harm yourself or your wife and family in the process. I think we are all in agreement there. 

This was a great thread to try and help BS's find forgiveness and compassion. It's a bit strange, though, because there must be consequences for everything. That's just how the world works. I'm fairly certain, BBR could give examples of the consequences he's faced from his twenty years of marriage, for things he's said and done. 

I do think he needs to forgive her. He will have to find his own path. She had no right to determine what path his life should have followed, unless she is his guardian and he cannot or could not make his own decisions. 

If that is the lesson in this, then you have made your point. We don't choose the life for the other person by leaving them out of the decision. We let them make it with all the facts available. We give those we love, all the facts we can, because we love them and the very best love is that which is given freely. 

There's a lesson there for all of us.

EDIT: There's only one problem I have with all of this. Men and women must hold each other to the same standards. Ex.: If BBR is willing to forgive this and she doesn't forgive things equally, there will be issues down the road. We are all just grown up children, whether we believe it or not. We all struggle with the same childish ways we did while growing up. 

This forgiveness stuff can lead quickly to being a doormat. Men AND women, please take note. There is a balance that must be kept.


----------



## Thor

JCD said:


> This isn't a good lie. It is not a light lie. It is bad lie...BUT
> 
> It is also a lie that he needs to take in context. Yes, he gets to weigh all these mental movies which he is suffering from NOW.
> 
> BUT, if one was truly honest, one needs also measure the TWENTY YEARS OF GOODNESS this lie brought him.


:iagree:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> *SA,
> 
> :iagree: You words are helping me see her reason for lying to me so long ago. You are so right in every aspect of this situation and yes there are NO limits to what one will do for love so I am starting to understand. This forum and everyone's advice/comments have been therapeutic for me to say the least. I think the time has come for me to change my name from Broken Beyond Repair to Broken But Repairable. Thank-you from the bottom of my heart. I truly do appreciate it*


Wonderful to hear BBR..







..
....even if I was thinking you were a







..I played along....Honestly.. I spoke from the heart to something I damn well *don't want* to see happen to my own son....he takes enough ridicule for his ideals in today's society....being one who believes in waiting for 1 very special woman...

Reading here, story after story...has helped ME enlighten him on what is likely to happen ...if he doesn't show himself providing an atmosphere of comfort for any women he is interested ...to feel the freedom to share her past Openly / honestly before him ...showing understanding... only in THIS can we truly get to know another human being anyway...... being vulnerable is very hard for many people....it's important to help them trust in US to go there... without harsh judgement... 

I don't really believe anyone can be the perfect "10" package ..though once we fall deeply in love, even with their flaws, imperfect past, what ever it may be... if we have achieved that brand of vulnerability & connection with each other...they will feel like that  none the less.

I do so try to see every side... That is a great new Name... pm a Mod to change it...and I hope you stick around.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

BBR:

I believe I've read all your posts. but others raised a couple questions, good questions that have some of us confused.

1. has your wife gone really hot and really cold toward you this past week? in one post she'ss aying things like "i think I'm falling in love with you all over again" and in the next one she's telling you to leave her if you need to (i.e. she's not gonna answer any of your questions). how did she go from one extreme to the other?

2. how did you end up casually talking with the guy she told you had raped her? is he somone you both know, have stayed in touch with for 20 years, or....???


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

2ntnuf said:


> No, it's a compatibility problem. It doesn't matter if she was a virgin or not. They had such different life experience, it's come between them because he didn't know. He feels like he wasn't given the chance to honestly decide if he wanted her, because he was duped. He's not wrong in that. He is letting her past ruin a really great twenty years, though. It's a shame, but lying causes stuff like that sometimes.


:iagree:*EXACTLY!* I couldn't have said it any better myself. Thank-you


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

JCD;6774609
[B said:


> There is nothing to revenge. This was BEFORE you.[/B]


In complete agreement.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

samyeagar said:


> I disagree entirely. It is not about insecurity at all. It seems that the OP is very secure in his relationship. He doesn't have any fear at all that his wife is anything but comletely attracted, in love and devoted to him in every way.
> 
> 
> So very true samyeagar. I am and always have been very secure in my relationship. My wife never once gave me a reason not to be. We are planning a very special Valentines day now and trying to move forward. Slow and steady, taking it day by day but some days are harder than others.


----------



## sidney2718

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> SA,
> 
> :iagree: You words are helping me see her reason for lying to me so long ago. You are so right in every aspect of this situation and yes there are NO limits to what one will do for love so I am starting to understand. This forum and everyone's advice/comments have been therapeutic for me to say the least. I think the time has come for me to change my name from Broken Beyond Repair to Broken But Repairable. Thank-you from the bottom of my heart. I truly do appreciate it.


Good for you! I think that this is very important. There are the hopes and futures of two people involved in this, not just one. Or counting your children, six people, not just one.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

SimplyAmorous said:


> Being raped = a victim..something was taken from her against her will... many do not see this in the same light as willfully engaging in casual sex ...which speaks to one's specific views/ beliefs on sex & what it represents to them.... which can render a couple incompatible ... it is a violation that was should have never been.. some still consider these virgins also.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder about this story, BBR is not sharing any new information or detail...did he question the rape story -who when, why...wasn't he ANGRY as hell l.. and wouldn't their sex life has suffered some trauma if this was true... he never wondered...
> 
> He has not spoken anything really on how she is dealing -some details to go on -despite repeated asking.. if he could do it all over again, would he have dumped her..no answer... .run away thread.. with no poster -is he just playing a game with us.... come on BBR...up the details.. show yourself.


My wife explained to me in detail her story of rape from where it took place to who committed this horrendous act (a local man almost 10 years older than her). I was VERY angry and wanted to confront him back in 1994 when I first found out and I wanted her to file charges against him but she was adamant about keeping it quiet. "It hurts too much", she told me as we hugged. I respected her wishes and never spoke of it again and the rest is history. I never questioned her claim but now that I think back knowing what I know, I do question some of her sexual expertise. I honestly do feel a bit stupid now. If I would have known what I know about her past now, I would have remained only friends with her and nothing more because I know for a fact that I could not have dealt with it but now I have no choice but to deal with it and move forward.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

Machiavelli said:


> BBR
> 
> Any marriage contract (vows) you made to your wife was induced by fraudulent misrepresentation. From Cornell Law School website:
> 
> _Under contract law, a plaintiff can recover against a defendant on the grounds of fraudulent misrepresentation if (1) a representation was made; (2) that was false; (3) that when made, the representation was known to be false or made recklessly without knowledge of its truth; (4) that it was made with the intention that the plaintiff rely on it; (5) that the plaintiff did rely on it; and (6) that the plaintiff suffered damages as a result._
> 
> So, there you go; your case meets all 6 tests. So, you're certainly justified to seek redress.
> 
> That can be via divorce or some other method that you choose. But, whatever you decide you need in order to be made whole, you need to be upfront with your wife about what the payback is going to be.
> 
> Here are some alternatives to divorce:
> 
> If you're a Christian or a Jew, you might say, "We are now reverting to Biblical marriage. My two new wives arrive tomorrow."
> 
> If you're a pagan, you can say, "We are now reverting to pagan Greek marriage. My three new concubines arrive tomorrow."
> 
> *Or you can just tell her, "The old contract is null, the new contract is I do who I want, when I want. You stay home."*


Haha I love it. Machiavelli, you actually made me laugh out loud with this one. Perfect timing. It's been a while since I felt like I wanted to smile. Thank-you


----------



## Thundarr

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> My wife explained to me in detail her story of rape from where it took place to who committed this horrendous act (a local man almost 10 years older than her). I was VERY angry and wanted to confront him back in 1994 when I first found out and I wanted her to file charges against him but she was adamant about keeping it quiet. "It hurts too much", she told me as we hugged. I respected her wishes and never spoke of it again and the rest is history. I never questioned her claim but now that I think back knowing what I know, I do question some of her sexual expertise. I honestly do feel a bit stupid now. If I would have known what I know about her past now, I would have remained only friends with her and nothing more because I know for a fact that I could not have dealt with it but now I have no choice but to deal with it and move forward.


It's hard to know what choices you'd make because you didn't have the change to make them. Sometimes we see greatness in people who have been less than great in their past. It's a shame she didn't give herself credit and she didn't give you credit either to actually make that choice. Maybe you wouldn't be with her now but if you were then you'd be solid.


----------



## Blonde

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> My wife explained to me in detail her story of rape from where it took place to who committed this horrendous act (a local man almost 10 years older than her).


How old was she when this man 10 years older was having sex with her? If she was a minor, I would still call that rape even if she is confused @ it now.


----------



## Thor

How did her rape story affect you over the years?


----------



## larry.gray

SimplyAmorous said:


> ... something I damn well *don't want* to see happen to my own son....he takes enough ridicule for his ideals in today's society....being one who believes in waiting for 1 very special woman...
> 
> Reading here, story after story...has helped ME enlighten him on what is likely to happen ...if he doesn't show himself providing an atmosphere of comfort for any women he is interested ...to feel the freedom to share her past Openly / honestly before him .


This STILL is dangerous grounds to cover.

What he would need to do for a prospective wife to open up is to bury his strong stance to marry a woman who hasn't been with another man. To a degree, that's a form of dishonesty. 

You'd also really have to feel for a gal who falls in love with him, opens up and then is told "sorry... *NEXT.*


----------



## Machiavelli

larry.gray said:


> This STILL is dangerous grounds to cover.
> 
> What he would need to do for a prospective wife to open up is to bury his strong stance to marry a woman who hasn't been with another man. To a degree, that's a form of dishonesty.
> 
> You'd also really have to feel for a gal who falls in love with him, opens up and then is told "sorry... *NEXT.*


Naw. He can just tell them upfront. I dated some divorced girls, but I had an ironclad policy of not dating women with kids. Sure, some of them whined about it and I was told I was "unfair," but that was not my problem. 

The problem for SA's son is that he's going to have to focus on younger girls if he wants a virgin, but that's only a problem if you make it one.

I once heard a young girl was asked out by creepy old Hugh Hefner back in the sixties. She said, "But I've never dated anyone over 21." Hefner's answer was, "Neither have I."


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

pidge70 said:


> *This*
> 
> 
> 
> *Does not match this*


I am in a desperate situation my friend and feel confused. I have had thoughts about everything from A to Z but as time passes by, I remain true to my beliefs. I have self-respect and 4 kids that look up to me and I can't see myself suddenly changing who I am but this sadness is truly hard to overcome.


----------



## 2ntnuf

larry.gray said:


> This STILL is dangerous grounds to cover.
> 
> What he would need to do for a prospective wife to open up is to bury his strong stance to marry a woman who hasn't been with another man. *To a degree, that's a form of dishonesty. *
> 
> You'd also really have to feel for a gal who falls in love with him, opens up and then is told "sorry... *NEXT.*


I disagree that it's a form of dishonesty. Mainly because when you go out to buy something and finally get a look at it, you might change your mind and buy one of a different brand or model, or etc. 

We all go in with a thought in mind. As long as we are honest with ourselves and others, there is no issue. This thought actually ties back in with the thread. If BBR's wife would have been honest in the beginning, he would feel much differently about his decision to marry, etc. 

I think it will be tough to find what SA's son wants in a woman, but no tougher than anyone else. There are women out there who will fall into his general conditions. She's raising an intelligent son. He'll work it out with her help. Sometimes, we have to decide we want a red car instead of the blue, but we are still happy. In time, it will work out, SA. His and her happiness is what is most important.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

clipclop2 said:


> Awesome post.
> 
> This gets at the heart of so many issues with people.
> 
> They build a world around an idea, ideal, belief or something they hold true and they feel safe. All is well. I'm smart, made good decisions and from those things, all good has flowed.
> 
> In this, his wife has not changed. She did these things, lied, and went on to be a wife that still fit in with the belief system.
> 
> What changed is him.
> 
> His knowledge. Eating from the tree as it were.
> 
> This revelation has knocked out his foundation.
> 
> She can apologize forever but as with any kind of betrayal, it is up to the betrayed to figure out how to fixthings.
> 
> She can't fix this.
> 
> Grief and anger have to be allowed to pour out. He lost something.
> 
> It was an idea. A belief. It wasnt the foundation of his marriage until he learned it wasn't the foundation of his marriage, if that makes sense.
> 
> Grieve the loss. It is ok.
> 
> And do seek help. Guided grieving mat lead to saving your marriage.
> 
> I think the lie is huge. I was lied to before marriage and I don't believe I would have married him had I known. I have made the terrible mistake of being unable to let it go and it has clouded everything.
> 
> Gandhi said something like "once you question a man's motives, everything he does is tainted."
> 
> That's where I am.
> 
> Don't let yourself get to that place.
> 
> She seems otherwise alright. Is she?
> 
> I know.
> 
> You don't know.
> 
> How can you know?
> 
> Did you really, really trust her fully before this? Never any inkling? Nothing else come up to cause insecurity that this new info set on fire? No secret need to knock her off her pedestal?
> 
> If all was truly well, it is probably because you chose well. She didn't disappoint you. Good wife. Good mum. Good partner.
> 
> So your self-trust seems rewarded. Nobody gets everything right. You missed something you couldn't have seen.
> 
> I think exploring the loss is good. Go slow.
> 
> Seek counseling.
> 
> Then go together.


Very thoughtful advice ClipClop2, thank-you.:smthumbup:


----------



## tainted

This reminds of me an episode of King Of The Hill. 
Hank found out Peggy wasn't a virgin when they met. He was angry at her for lying to him all these years. In the end they solved it by having her get baptized to become a born again "virgin". 

I miss that show.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

sidney2718 said:


> Agreed. But for me it is worse than that. Ignoring the point that virigns are these days often called "unicorns" because of their rarity, did the OP tell his future wife early on that he was only interested in virgins? No he did not. He allowed the relationship to become quite serious before he chose to mention the qualifications necessary.
> 
> I actually let her know within the first 90 days of knowing her that I am indeed a virgin and would prefer to marry only a virgin at which point she gave me the story of rape but I do agree with you, it's hard to find a virgin nowadays but not impossible.


----------



## Cletus

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> sidney2718 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually let her know within the first 90 days of knowing her that I am indeed a virgin and would prefer to marry only a virgin at which point she gave me the story of rape but I do agree with you, it's hard to find a virgin nowadays but not impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot to say unimportant.
> 
> I know, I know, everyone is going to jump down my throat for making that statement, that you get to decide what's important, and that I should have no inclination to challenge that right.
> 
> So that statement is not to tell you you're wrong, but to get you to reevaluate the necessity of having a virgin bride. What would it have brought to you marriage that you do not already have? How would your life have been improved an any measurable, meaningful way?
> 
> For something to be THIS important to someone, there should be some tangible benefit. What would have been your benefit? Peace of mind is an answer, but a pretty weak one considering a 20 year successful marriage.
> 
> Is there any chance that perhaps you can see that your fascination and fixation on this one fact is no less a failing to your marriage than is your wife's deceit?
Click to expand...


----------



## Blonde

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I was 19 when I met my met my wife who was 20 at the time. S


People do not mature until age 25. Brain Maturity Extends Well Beyond Teen Years : NPR



> Originally Posted by Broken.Beyond.Repair
> My wife explained to me in detail her story of rape from where it took place to who committed this horrendous act (a local man almost 10 years older than her).


He was 10, count em, TEN years older than her. Again how old was she when this sleazebag DOM was taking advantage of her???

Even MORE sleazy and stalker-ish that he is the one who told you he had sex with your W.

Sorry dude, but I think you are a troll because you do not answer very relevant question @ your story.


----------



## Thundarr

Cletus said:


> You forgot to say unimportant.
> 
> I know, I know, everyone is going to jump down my throat for making that statement, that you get to decide what's important, and that I should have no inclination to challenge that right.
> 
> So that statement is not to tell you you're wrong, but to get you to reevaluate the necessity of having a virgin bride. What would it have brought to you marriage that you do not already have? How would your life have been improved an any measurable, meaningful way?
> 
> For something to be THIS important to someone, there should be some tangible benefit. What would have been your benefit? Peace of mind is an answer, but a pretty weak one considering a 20 year successful marriage.
> 
> Is there any chance that perhaps you can see that your fascination and fixation on this one fact is no less a failing to your marriage than is your wife's deceit?


He said that he preferred a virgin because he was too. When he found out she wasn't a virgin he didn't break it off or anything. She didn't really give him a chance to accept her so I'm not sure why he's the bad guy here. It's speculation that he'd kick her to the curb back then. Plus it's only been a week or two. Seems like we're not giving BBR a chance either.


----------



## Thundarr

Blonde said:


> Sorry dude, but I think you are a troll because you do not answer very relevant question @ your story.


Isn't that an annoying thought.


----------



## happyman64

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> sidney2718 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. But for me it is worse than that. Ignoring the point that virigns are these days often called "unicorns" because of their rarity, did the OP tell his future wife early on that he was only interested in virgins? No he did not. He allowed the relationship to become quite serious before he chose to mention the qualifications necessary.
> 
> I actually let her know within the first 90 days of knowing her that I am indeed a virgin and would prefer to marry only a virgin at which point she gave me the story of rape but I do agree with you, it's hard to find a virgin nowadays but not impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> I married a virgin. And my wife is a awesome, beautiful woman. But with that virginity until the age of 26 comes some sexual hangups.
> 
> They are her hangups.
> 
> So virginity is not everything that it is cracked up to be.
> 
> Keep working at it BBR. And judge her for the great years of love and loyalty she has given you.
> 
> And continue to support her as she works on the lie and do not let it define you, her or your marriage.
> 
> HM
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ntnuf

happyman64 said:


> Broken.Beyond.Repair said:
> 
> 
> 
> I married a virgin. And my wife is a awesome, beautiful woman. But with that virginity until the age of 26 comes some sexual hangups.
> 
> They are her hangups.
> 
> So virginity is not everything that it is cracked up to be.
> 
> Keep working at it BBR. And judge her for the great years of love and loyalty she has given you.
> 
> And continue to support her as she works on the lie and do not let it define you, her or your marriage.
> 
> HM
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to say that many women, not just virgins, have these sexual hangups. They don't go away very easily, no matter when a woman or man starts to have sex.
> 
> They would each be starting at the same place. Maybe that's not easy, but that's why many churches have counseling services. Have you seen, "The Marriage Bed", site?
Click to expand...


----------



## happyman64

2ntnuf said:


> happyman64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to say that many women, not just virgins, have these sexual hangups. They don't go away very easily, no matter when a woman or man starts to have sex.
> 
> They would each be starting at the same place. Maybe that's not easy, but that's why many churches have counseling services. Have you seen, "The Marriage Bed", site?
> 
> 
> 
> That is also true. But if a man or a woman are sexually active in a committed relationship prior to marriage at least the other spouse fully understands what sexual baggage is being brought into the marriage day one.
> 
> The same goes with the "lie". The unaware spouse is not aware of the baggage being brought into the marriage.
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ntnuf

happyman64 said:


> That is also true. But if a man or a woman are sexually active in a committed relationship prior to marriage at least the other spouse fully understands what sexual baggage is being brought into the marriage day one.
> 
> The same goes with the "lie". The unaware spouse is not aware of the baggage being brought into the marriage.


The quotes here are messed up. I don't know why. I may have done something. Sorry if I did.

Anyway, I think you are advocating sex before marriage. That's fine for some. I had sex before both marriages. It doesn't mean there wasn't problems with sex. I just never really talked about our issues in a real way that would work through them, because there was no marriage left to work on. The important part is, there will likely be issues in any sexual relationship if there is a lack of good communication. Somewhere along the line, communication breaks down. In the case of BBR, it happened with the lie before marriage. 

So, I may have misunderstood your previous post. Not sure, really.


This site is falling apart. The, "Purge", is on.


----------



## happyman64

I agree with good, honest communication. That is key to any successful relationship.

And as the father of 3 daughters I am definitely not advocating sex before marriage though I do not see anything wrong with it if two consenting adults are in a committed relationship.

I used to be one of those guys that was always "virgin" hunting.

But after going with a woman that successfully guarded her virginity from a wolf like me for 6 years I put myself in her shoes.

I learned that she was just as frustrated as me not being able to consummate our relationship.

I learned that she wanted to keep her promise to herself as well as be that "good" girl for herself and her parents.

I learned that she did not want to be in the "unwed pregnancy" shoes that her 16 year old sister found herself in.

I put myself in her shoes and learned that if she could be this loyal to herself then she could be this loyal to me, our marriage and our family.

And I have never been disappointed yet. And she still continues to surprise me.

HM


----------



## 2ntnuf

happyman64 said:


> I agree with good, honest communication. That is key to any successful relationship.
> 
> And as the father of 3 daughters I am definitely not advocating sex before marriage though I do not see anything wrong with it if two consenting adults are in a committed relationship.
> 
> I used to be one of those guys that was always "virgin" hunting.
> 
> But after going with a woman that successfully guarded her virginity from a wolf like me for 6 years I put myself in her shoes.
> 
> I learned that she was just as frustrated as me not being able to consummate our relationship.
> 
> I learned that she wanted to keep her promise to herself as well as be that "good" girl for herself and her parents.
> 
> I learned that she did not want to be in the "unwed pregnancy" shoes that her 16 year old sister found herself in.
> 
> I put myself in her shoes and learned that if she could be this loyal to herself then she could be this loyal to me, our marriage and our family.
> 
> And I have never been disappointed yet. And she still continues to surprise me.
> 
> HM


Wonderful story. I agree.


----------



## Cletus

Thundarr said:


> He said that he preferred a virgin because he was too. When he found out she wasn't a virgin he didn't break it off or anything. She didn't really give him a chance to accept her so I'm not sure why he's the bad guy here. It's speculation that he'd kick her to the curb back then. Plus it's only been a week or two. Seems like we're not giving BBR a chance either.


That point has been made ad nauseum here. I understand it.

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what about marrying a virgin was so important that it's worth all of this fuss. He admits they would have probably never gotten married back then, had he known the truth. If he has any ability at introspection at all, he also knows that this would have quite possibly deprived him of the ensuing 20 years of wedded bliss. 

What was so important then? If he thought a virgin was required for happiness, that's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a false premise. I won' guess as to the what, I'm not OP. But if I were him, I'd surely be reevaluating that requirement and it's importance to me today, and tempering my reaction accordingly.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> I'm asking what about marrying a virgin was so important that it's worth all of this fuss. If he has any ability at introspection at all, he also knows that this would have quite *possibly* deprived him of the ensuing 20 years of *wedded bliss*.
> 
> What was so important then?


The importance of it lies in what I highlighted above. It is compounded by the fact that he was lied to, but the truth was revealed twenty years later. 

The importance was not in virginity.

The importance was in the fact that she proved, by her lie, she really didn't trust him to make, the, "right", decision.

If you take that into account, how could a woman that young be wise enough to decide that he would not make the right decision? How could she know what is right for him? She would have to be inside his mind.

So, she made a decision for herself, not for them. It was selfish and did not consider him at all. 

That's not love. 

Does she really love him or have the last twenty years been about her?

That's what he's trying to figure out. Is it worth it to him to continue? Most of us, including me, think it is, but she put herself in this situation.


Edit: What's funny to me is that so many don't understand. Many on this site, men mostly, talk about, "manning up". If you don't have boundaries or to use the older term principles established, that you believe in and follow, you have no idea of what you are manning up for. Each of us has slightly different boundaries or principles we live by. I think it's just a case of manning up and no one wants to give BBR credit for manning up when his principles are crossed. That's not very respectful. It's not, "manning up", unless what is meant by manning up is taking all the crap anyone throws at you because someone else said you should.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cletus said:


> That point has been made ad nauseum here. I understand it.
> 
> That's not what I'm asking. *I'm asking what about marrying a virgin was so important that it's worth all of this fuss.* He admits they would have probably never gotten married back then, had he known the truth. If he has any ability at introspection at all, he also knows that this would have quite possibly deprived him of the ensuing 20 years of wedded bliss.
> 
> What was so important then? If he thought a virgin was required for happiness, that's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a false premise. I won' guess as to the what, I'm not OP. But if I were him, I'd surely be reevaluating that requirement and it's importance to me today, and tempering my reaction accordingly.


You clearly have made a value judgement that marrying a virgin is not important. Is there any reason you would find acceptable, anything that would make you stop asking this over and over again and rejecting the answers as not good enough? If not, you might as well stop asking the question.

I suspect you keep asking this question because you feel it's not important but are unable to articulate a persuasive argument to support your view, so you're trying to get the other side to argue on your terms. Here's a suggestion, stop questioning and start persuading. Your not making any headway the way your going about it right now.

Note that I don't find virginity any great treasure in a woman, but I don't have any objection to someone having different values. I think op's wife's actions in deceiving him into marrying her when he had made it clear that she was not what he was looking for is reprehensible, and I don't think she "get's it" any more than you do. I don't think they should divorce, but I suspect that if they don't both get counseling they eventually will. He needs counseling to accept and recognize the good life he's had since then and let it go and she needs counseling to understand just how big a betrayal of trust she committed.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> The importance of it lies in what I highlighted above. It is compounded by the fact that he was lied to, but the truth was revealed twenty years later.
> 
> The importance was not in virginity.


At the time, it certainly was. 20 years ago. Not today. I'm working on the hypothesis that his wife sussed out the fact that admitting she wasn't a virgin was a deal breaker and lied accordingly.

Everything you mention is the fallout from that decision. I'm putting into the question the right-thinking of that spousal requirement at the time it was made, and tempering your response today based on the now established incorrectness of it. 

In short, I'm saying his wife made the empirically correct if morally questionable choice. I'm saying, in case it's not clear, that his 20 year old morals were not wrong but were misleading. OP seems to have put virginity on a pedestal (and let's not forget the depraved/animal/subhuman comments). I'd be thanking my wife were I him for calling my bluff and making me a happy man in spite of myself.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> *At the time, it certainly was.* 20 years ago. Not today. I'm working on the hypothesis that his wife sussed out the fact that admitting she wasn't a virgin was a deal breaker and lied accordingly.
> 
> Everything you mention is the fallout from that decision. I'm putting into the question the right-thinking of that spousal requirement at the time it was made, and tempering your response today based on the now established incorrectness of it.
> 
> In short, I'm saying *his wife made the empirically correct* if morally questionable choice.


These two things I highlighted are in direct opposition because he made the choice to marry her, even though she was not a virgin. 

There is a difference in mindset and felt emotion between thinking someone was forced to have sex and thinking they chose to have sex. 




Cletus said:


> I'm saying, in case it's not clear, that his 20 year old morals were not wrong but were misleading. OP seems to have put virginity on a pedestal (and let's not forget the depraved/animal/subhuman comments). I'd be thanking my wife were I him for calling my bluff and making me a happy man in spite of myself.


So, you might put sexual experience on a pedestal? I don't think either is wrong. I just think it's preference. 

Can you bring to light, these depraved comments? I just don't remember them. I'm sorry. I easily could have missed them or glossed over them. Those might be interesting and very important to my stance on this. They may also, just be a product of anger and betrayal. Not that we have seen any of that before.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

Cletus said:


> That point has been made ad nauseum here. I understand it.
> 
> That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what about marrying a virgin was so important that it's worth all of this fuss. ......
> 
> What was so important then?


Is it not that some things are important to some people and not to others? Apparently it is important to some women that a man be Caucasian, six foot with blue eyes (hey, I am a catch!), to others it matters not at all. Tall women often want taller men etc.

There is almost no limit to the rich variety of human nature.

I hope I have not over-edited your comment. I was trying to cater for those troubled by people who quote the whole comment. No offense intended.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> So, you might put sexual experience on a pedestal? I don't think either is wrong. I just think it's preference.


I would put sexual compatability on a pedestal. What my wife did before I came along is not completely irrelevant, but also not terribly important. No one learns without experimenting.



> Can you bring to light, these depraved comments? I just don't remember them. I'm sorry. I easily could have missed them or glossed over them. Those might be interesting and very important to my stance on this. They may also, just be a product of anger and betrayal. Not that we have seen any of that before.


All quotes from BBR. You may decide for yourself if this is someone who has a healthy view of human sexuality.

She tells me that I am the only one that she has ever loved and that her past was just all physical attraction. I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. I am not some disgusting animal.

Our sex life was nothing less than perfect but now I can't even look her in the eyes. I feel ashamed and I feel SO dirty. 

Her looks initially attracted me to to her but her caring nature, her unconditional loving ways and she's quite frankly one of the most down to earth and smartest human beings that I have ever met which is part of why it makes it so hard to conceive what she was capable of before she met me.

My main problem is that I can't get rid of these haunting images of her performing these perverted sexual acts with others.


----------



## Cletus

tryingtobebetter said:


> Is it not that some things are important to some people and not to others? Apparently it is important to some women that a man be Caucasian, six foot with blue eyes (hey, I am a catch!), to others it matters not at all. Tall women often want taller men etc.
> 
> There is almost no limit to the rich variety of human nature.
> 
> I hope I have not over-edited your comment. I was trying to cater for those troubled by people who quote the whole comment. No offense intended.


Me? I'm partial to 46 chromosomes. What can I say?

Does one not reevaluate how attached one is to his preferences when two decades of counter-evidence from his own life are considered? And how meaningful and predictive those preferences ever were in the past?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> I would put sexual compatability on a pedestal. What my wife did before I came along is not completely irrelevant, but also not terribly important. No one learns without experimenting.


Again, you have directly opposing views here. If it was not important at all, you would be in agreement with yourself.




Cletus said:


> All quotes from BBR. You may decide for yourself if this is someone who has a healthy view of human sexuality.
> 
> She tells me that I am the only one that she has ever loved and that her past was just all physical attraction. I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. *I am not some disgusting animal.*
> 
> Our sex life was nothing less than perfect but now I can't even look her in the eyes.* I feel ashamed and I feel SO dirty.
> *
> Her looks initially attracted me to to her but her caring nature, her unconditional loving ways and she's quite frankly one of the most down to earth and smartest human beings that I have ever met which is part of why it makes it so hard to conceive what she was capable of before she met me.
> 
> My main problem is that I can't get rid of these haunting images of her performing these perverted sexual acts with others.


1. Hurtful comment.

2. Feelings are neither, "right", nor, "wrong".

3. His sexual preferences are different from her's. Not sure I understand what's wrong with that. He formed an opinion, based on his values. Don't we ALL do that? :scratchhead:

4. He needs counseling to get rid of those images. It may also help him to understand. He doesn't have to accept anyone's opinion as, "right", as long as he doesn't force his on someone else, or harm someone with it. None of us can avoid hurting someone's feelings. We can avoid harming someone.


----------



## Thor

Cletus said:


> At the time, it certainly was. 20 years ago. Not today. I'm working on the hypothesis that his wife sussed out the fact that admitting she wasn't a virgin was a deal breaker and lied accordingly.
> 
> Everything you mention is the fallout from that decision. I'm putting into the question the right-thinking of that spousal requirement at the time it was made, and tempering your response today based on *the now established incorrectness of it*.


Perhaps the reason things have gone well for 20 years is because he believed she was a virgin. Perhaps, had he known the truth about her past, _his value system_ would have colored his assessment of her and would have changed some of his views of things which happened along the way.

Perhaps the next 20 years cannot go well because he now knows that her core values conflict with his.

Perhaps there have been other events which brought her values into question, but he based his judgments on believing the best of her because he was incorrectly informed from the beginning. Think of it as a "Truth Bias" situation, where his understanding of her values is the basis of his interpretations and judgments of her actions.

I agree that a lot of value needs to be placed on the apparently good 20 years they've had together. I also think that the damage to trust is going to be very deep and take a long time to re-establish. If she maintains the attitude he has no right to know about her past, and if she refuses to talk about it, the path to R does not exist.


----------



## Thor

Cletus said:


> Does one not reevaluate how attached one is to his preferences when two decades of counter-evidence from his own life are considered? And how meaningful and predictive those preferences ever were in the past?


Now let's imagine he had discovered she cheated on him at her bachelorette party. And then they had the fabulous 20 year marriage.

Sure there is 20 years of counter-evidence. She did something horrible but they had a great marriage before he found out.

Should he just accept the fact she shagged (hypothetically) a male stripper because of those good years?

To me, the situation is not any different in terms of honesty or in terms of her concern for his freedom to make an informed choice about marrying her.


----------



## Thundarr

Cletus said:


> That point has been made ad nauseum here. I understand it.
> 
> That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what about marrying a virgin was so important that it's worth all of this fuss. He admits they would have probably never gotten married back then, had he known the truth. If he has any ability at introspection at all, he also knows that this would have quite possibly deprived him of the ensuing 20 years of wedded bliss.
> 
> What was so important then? If he thought a virgin was required for happiness, that's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a false premise. I won' guess as to the what, I'm not OP. But if I were him, I'd surely be reevaluating that requirement and it's importance to me today, and tempering my reaction accordingly.


I've echoed most of the same points as you on this thread Cletus. I think so anyway. 

In this case though we don't know that virginity was the deal breaker you're saying it was (please read further). His actions and words indicate it was a preference but we're making his raw emotional response to the long term lie of it paint him as a rigid. 

He said she was VERY sexually experienced" before she met him. That's likely closer to the deal breaker rather than virginity. But all that means is she's been with multiple partners and he doesn't know how many. Who knows if it was a deal breaker but she kept it to herself.

EDIT: Also I think we should take some of BBRs first comments in context of a guy dealing with raw emotion. Not likely a completely accurate representation of who he is. That's speculation but on my part but it's also predicable emotional lashing out when trying to get our hands wrapped around a hurt.


----------



## sidney2718

Cletus said:


> That point has been made ad nauseum here. I understand it.
> 
> That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what about marrying a virgin was so important that it's worth all of this fuss. He admits they would have probably never gotten married back then, had he known the truth. If he has any ability at introspection at all, he also knows that this would have quite possibly deprived him of the ensuing 20 years of wedded bliss.
> 
> What was so important then? If he thought a virgin was required for happiness, that's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a false premise. I won' guess as to the what, I'm not OP. But if I were him, I'd surely be reevaluating that requirement and it's importance to me today, and tempering my reaction accordingly.


My comment here is a sidebar to the thread but I think it is instructive. The notion of the importance of female virginity seems to come from an age where males basically owned their wives and daughters. Worse, the notion back then was that women stored sperm so that once she had sex with someone other than her husband there is no telling who the real father of her children was.

Since nobody much cares about men being virgins (I have never in my long time on this earth heard a woman say she's sorry she didn't marry a virgin) it all seems very very unfair.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Good grief........

BBR,

I hope you're getting the info you need from your wife. I think that will help along with reading HisNeeds/HerNeeds and working through the exercises. I think, if you pledge yourselves to each other, once again, you may feel like newlyweds. Start working on that side of it. Get to know her like you never truly knew her. Ask her all kinds of stuff like you would when dating. Take her out and see what she wants and likes and needs, from you. 

Try to give her that stuff. Work together building a new marriage.

Edit: Read the five love languages book, also. Take your time with these books. Have fun exploring who she is. You might find new things to do that renew all of your feelings.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Cletus said:


> Broken.Beyond.Repair said:
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot to say unimportant.
> 
> I know, I know, everyone is going to jump down my throat for making that statement, that you get to decide what's important, and that I should have no inclination to challenge that right.
> 
> So that statement is not to tell you you're wrong, but to get you to reevaluate the necessity of having a virgin bride. What would it have brought to you marriage that you do not already have? How would your life have been improved an any measurable, meaningful way?
> 
> For something to be THIS important to someone, there should be some tangible benefit. What would have been your benefit? Peace of mind is an answer, but a pretty weak one considering a 20 year successful marriage.
> 
> Is there any chance that perhaps you can see that your fascination and fixation on this one fact is no less a failing to your marriage than is your wife's deceit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually I just now realized that the OP himself was a virgin -- how did I miss that!!
> 
> so in that case especially the value of marrying a virgin is to be able to share the act of sex with only the person you intend to commit your life too. Then sexual acts (I agree that an oral sex king or queen is no 'virgin' in any real sense) will indeed be very special, because everyone one of them you do you have done ONLY with the spouse. potentially a very strong physical bond and relationship. all the emotion involved shared only with that person etc.
> 
> Now, not to put too fine a point on this but, for a husband that also means your wife has not been 'pounded' ,say, a few hundred times by 9 or 10 other men. it means she has not, say, gotten 10-15 other men off through #### or by ****, that she has not seen 10-15 other guy's ********, that she has only seen yours.
> 
> So especially for a guy, there is none of this stuff in her past to have to 'deal with' or 'come to grips with' or feel insecure about or wonder about or worry about or to have to accept that "she likes sex and you're not the only guy to have ever turned her on or to have ever made her come" or any of the other ways people point that out on TAM.
> 
> do you get my drift on how someone might value this?? and like I say, this could indeed have more value when viewing it from a male perspective. But in case any male poster wants to respond something like......."well I guess it just never bothered me 'cause that's how secure I am", or "that's how mature I am"
> to that I would say "sure, but you're also full of sh*t"
> 
> (IDK should I have quit while I was ahead? after my first paragraph?  )
Click to expand...


----------



## Cletus

nuclearnightmare said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> 
> do you get my drift on how someone might value this?? and like I say, this could indeed have more value when viewing it from a male perspective. But in case any male poster wants to respond something like......."well I guess it just never bothered me 'cause that's how secure I am", or "that's how mature I am"
> to that I would say "sure, but you're also full of sh*t"
> 
> 
> 
> I can certainly see that many men do value it.
> 
> I do not pretend to understand it. Ok, yeah, I get that you might not want a girl who goes to a frat house to see now many hookups she can land in 12 hours.
> 
> But a woman who has had serious relationships in her life with men whom she respected, liked, and found sexually compatible? I would hope to hell that she'd been "pounded", as it were, that she'd seen them naked, had them in her mouth and any other orifice with which she was comfortable. As often as they deemed appropriate.
> 
> You see, I married a woman who is not comfortable with her sexuality, never got comfortable, and never will. She was not a virgin, but missed the cutoff by a single sexual event that she regretted greatly. I'll take the one with the capacity to enjoy herself who also thinks I'm the guy she was waiting for all of her life to settle down with.
> 
> If that makes me full of poo, then you better get out the bumwipe.
Click to expand...


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Cletus said:


> nuclearnightmare said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can certainly see that many men do value it.
> 
> I do not pretend to understand it. Ok, yeah, I get that you might not want a girl who goes to a frat house to see now many hookups she can land in 12 hours.
> 
> But a woman who has had serious relationships in her life with men whom she respected, liked, and found sexually compatible? I would hope to hell that she'd been "pounded", as it were, that she'd seen them naked, had them in her mouth and any other orifice with which she was comfortable. As often as they deemed appropriate.
> 
> You see, I married a woman who is not comfortable with her sexuality, never got comfortable, and never will. She was not a virgin, but missed the cutoff by a single sexual event that she regretted greatly. I'll take the one with the capacity to enjoy herself who also thinks I'm the guy she was waiting for all of her life to settle down with.
> 
> If that makes me full of poo, then you better get out the bumwipe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all I'm really saying (and once I got going i really couldn't stop myself....I was on a roll and everything just had to come out just the way I wrote it )
> is that it is clear why someone might value this, and crystal clear why a man would value this....and very crystal clear why a virgin man would value this.
> 
> ..and I was not aware of your particular challenges with the sexual relationship with your wife, and would not purposefully make light of any such problem in a marriage....or any other sexual problem in a marriage. sincerely..
Click to expand...


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> ...I do not pretend to understand it. Ok, yeah, I get that you might not want a girl who goes to a frat house to see now many hookups she can land in 12 hours.
> 
> But a woman who has had serious relationships in her life with men whom she respected, liked, and found sexually compatible?


Okay, just for me, what's the difference between having 10 or 15 relationships, or 10 or 15 frat house guys? This goes for men as well, because it's really bull crap to place this all on women. 





Cletus said:


> You see, I married a woman who is not comfortable with her sexuality, never got comfortable, and never will. She was not a virgin, but missed the cutoff by a single sexual event that she regretted greatly.


My guess is, someone talked her into it while she was drunk or somehow not able to reason well. Peer pressure? I don't want an answer. It's not my business.

How would that first encounter have been different, if she was with a man who loved her enough to be a virgin as well? Maybe it's the way it was done? If you knew she had an aversion, you might not have married her. She might have needed counseling to get over whatever happened. She probably feels dirty and what was it BBR said? 

Gee, maybe that can happen with men or women, because they are with someone who is so nonchalant about sex, they don't hold any value to it, other than physical release? 



Cletus said:


> If that makes me full of poo, then you better get out the bumwipe.


I don't think you're full of it. I just think you've forgotten your youth or never understood the value it can have to a man or a woman. You are sex starved because you married a woman who was traumatized somehow with her first encounter. You can't even blame her. 

Just in case you fart..........


----------



## Thundarr

Cletus said:


> You see, I married a woman who is not comfortable with her sexuality, never got comfortable, and never will. She was not a virgin, but missed the cutoff by a single sexual event that she regretted greatly. I'll take the one with the capacity to enjoy herself who also thinks I'm the guy she was waiting for all of her life to settle down with.
> 
> If that makes me full of poo, then you better get out the bumwipe.


Makes since. Lack of sexual experience is sometimes driven by sexual guilt or lack of desire. Those are risks. A thread like this seems to minimize long happy marriage. I have to agree that some comments are doing that.


----------



## Thundarr

2ntnuf said:


> Okay, just for me, what's the difference between having 10 or 15 relationships, or 10 or 15 frat house guys? This goes for men as well, because it's really bull crap to place this all on women.


If you don't think it's different then it's just not different to you. But I can say almost every man finds that a woman shagging a frat house to be more baggage to deal with than sex in relationships. Women have every right to choose what they judge men on as well. It has little to do with fair and more to do with individuals. It just so happens that men and women trend differently on this one. And it seems that women judge other women as much as men do for this type of stuff.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thundarr said:


> Makes since. Lack of sexual experience is sometimes driven by sexual guilt or lack of desire. Those are risks. A thread like this seems to minimize long happy marriage. I have to agree that some comments are doing that.


Dude, I boned the hell out of my first wife. We did it outside, in cars, at the drive-in, in the winter on her front porch, on my front porch in the summer, in her basement on the washing machine, and on and on. We experimented with toys and clothes and positions. 

If a woman or a man doesn't want sex, there are other factors present, when they are in good health. No one doesn't naturally want sex. Even, normal religious education, will not take that desire and willingness away. Something external has to step in a screw someone up. *It could be as little as someone lying about their past. *

I was a virgin and so was she, when we met. Your theory is possible, but unlikely in most cases.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> My guess is, someone talked her into it while she was drunk or somehow not able to reason well. Peer pressure? I don't want an answer. It's not my business.
> 
> How would that first encounter have been different, if she was with a man who loved her enough to be a virgin as well?


Who says he wasn't?



> Maybe it's the way it was done? If you knew she had an aversion, you might not have married her. She might have needed counseling to get over whatever happened. She probably feels dirty and what was it BBR said?


Her sexual proclivities are not the result of her single episode of premarital sex. They are part of her personality. 



> Gee, maybe that can happen with men or women, because they are with someone who is so nonchalant about sex, they don't hold any value to it, other than physical release?


You're free to hypothesize to your heart's desire. 



> I don't think you're full of it. I just think you've forgotten your youth or never understood the value it can have to a man or a woman. You are sex starved because you married a woman who was traumatized somehow with her first encounter. You can't even blame her.


Oi. I was 16 for my first true sexual encounter with my then 15 year old girlfriend who fully and completely understood the value of a good sex life. I tried to be chivalrous, taking the high road, not being too eager until I got jumped on the lawn one warm summer day. I remember my youth, oh how I remember my youth...

Value in marrying a virgin? There's no such thing.


----------



## Cletus

Thundarr said:


> Makes since. Lack of sexual experience is sometimes driven by sexual guilt or lack of desire. Those are risks. A thread like this seems to minimize long happy marriage. I have to agree that some comments are doing that.


Exactly. Chastity was important to my wife in part because sex was so unimportant.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> If a woman or a man doesn't want sex, there are other factors present, when they are in good health. No one doesn't naturally want sex. Even, normal religious education, will not take that desire and willingness away. Something external has to step in a screw someone up. *It could be as little as someone lying about their past. *


This is the part where you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thundarr said:


> If you don't think it's different then it's just not different to you. But I can say almost every man finds that a woman shagging a frat house to be more baggage to deal with than sex in relationships. Women have every right to choose what they judge men on as well. It has little to do with fair and more to do with individuals. It just so happens that men and women trend differently on this one. And it seems that women judge other women as much as men do for this type of stuff.


If two individuals are the same age, and one has fifteen one night stands and one has fifteen relationships, and they both started at the same time, and there were three years in between, I don't see a difference.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> This is the part where you are absolutely and unequivocally wrong.


If you say so.


----------



## 2ntnuf

> Her sexual proclivities are not the result of her single episode of premarital sex. They are part of her personality.


Are you saying she is not healthy, mentally?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> Exactly. Chastity was important to my wife in part because sex was so unimportant.


How is it, you didn't know this before you got married? When did you find out? Why isn't it a deal-breaker? I read your words and you say it is. If you had children, did she change after the children were born? If not, why did you have children with her? You see what I mean? You can divorce, for any reason. Even if you are a Christian, there are reasons that you can divorce.


----------



## Thundarr

2ntnuf said:


> Dude, I boned the hell out of my first wife. We did it outside, in cars, at the drive-in, in the winter on her front porch, on my front porch in the summer, in her basement on the washing machine, and on and on. We experimented with toys and clothes and positions.
> 
> If a woman or a man doesn't want sex, there are other factors present, when they are in good health. No one doesn't naturally want sex. Even, normal religious education, will not take that desire and willingness away. Something external has to step in a screw someone up. *It could be as little as someone lying about their past. *
> 
> I was a virgin and so was she, when we met. Your theory is possible, but unlikely in most cases.


2ntnuf, I'm happy just reading this. Outside, cars, drive-in, porch, basement, washing machine, toys, clothes, positions, etc. AWESOME...........

I was merely saying that being a virgin is not always from self control. Sometimes it's due to just not wanting it to begin with. I'm glad your experience was not that case. I suspect you enjoyed reminiscing about it (I would for sure).

In Cletus's case however it likely turned out to be the opposite. His wife's lack of experience was probably due to her sexual guilt or lack of interest. Both are possible obviously but you have to admit that many who are driven by hormones; give in to sex; whereas many who are not; avoid it. So virgins would statistically have a higher percentage of people with sexual fear or dysfunction than would non-virgins.


----------



## Thundarr

2ntnuf said:


> If two individuals are the same age, and one has fifteen one night stands and one has fifteen relationships, and they both started at the same time, and there were three years in between, I don't see a difference.


As I eluded to, it's not different to you and that's perfectly fine. I assure you I'm not going to think they are the same weight if I were evaluating. I imagine you would assure me that they are the same weight to you if you were evaluating. We do disagree on this particular point.


----------



## Csquare

Guess I raised the bar beyond what was almost humanly possible as a 22 yo virgin wanting a man who also had the self-discipline to wait for the right woman. You'd think my condition would be impossible to meet except by someone perhaps too pathetic and grotesque to attract any woman. 

In fact I found a gorgeous, sexy, loving 21 yo man who was holding out for the same experience I was - which was the joy of discovery of physical pleasure with someone who would pledge to be my lifetime mate. 

I knew it would not be easy to find such a man. I knew that someone unscrupulous could misrepresent his experience to me for selfish reasons. But innocence (or inexperience, if you prefer) is hard to fake. Once you've done "it", you have a *knowing aura*, and I got to the point where I could intuit whether someone was experienced or not. 

I wonder if deep down BBR chose to overlook signs of his wife's *knowingness*.

Still, it's quite appalling her bald-faced lies to him about the "rape". And the fact that she lied for so long. What else has she lied about in order to make him"happy" for 20 years: child-rearing issues? Finance issues? Talking to friends about his secrets issues? 

A good marriage requires trust and trustworthiness. He has every right to insist that she come clean. And if she has any integrity at all, you'd think she would want to be honest with him.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

pidge70 said:


> I think it is funny that people are still going on about this when the OP hasn't even posted since page 7 and the thread is 18 pages long. Not to mention, he apparently last logged on this morning at 10:55 but, didn't feel a need to comment further........:scratchhead:


I've been reading, analyzing and understanding. I've also taken up extra hours at the hospital to try to get my mind back on track and my life back in focus. I do however log on from work every chance that I get to read the posts because believe it or not, some of them are helping me immensely. I don't have thoughts of suicide anymore which is good and the tears have dried up but every once in a while I get lost in my thoughts especially on my long drive to and from work. I seem to have lost that happiness that was such a big part of me and I can feel myself fighting this sadness every second of everyday. I listen to songs which once use to make me happy but they seem to depress even more. Sometimes I want to comment but just feel at a loss for words.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

Coffee Amore said:


> That's what happens with these threads that get people all worked up. An original poster, usually someone without any posts here, throws in a hand grenade of a post then walks away probably amused by the reaction of those who post here.


Not true at all Coffee Amore. I'm not amused at all and you're right about the hand grenade part because that's what I feel was thrown at me.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think he was playing us all .... but whatever.. is anything really lost just cause we gathered here and shared some personal thoughts and our opinions....doesn't bother me... do I think BBR is REAL ....and this story... probably not.


SA, playing you all, not in the slightest but I do feel as if I was played in a very big way. Sometimes I wish that this was just a story that I made up and then I wake up to find myself in this twisted reality but your words have helped me so I do thank-you from the bottom of my heart.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

Thundarr said:


> He probably didn't like being falsely accused. I wouldn't like it.
> 
> *I imagine a scenario where you were really emotional and stressed and she said it was none of your business out of desperation. *Hopefully that's the case. We (TAMERS) really don't know the details of the escalation. I hope she didn't really mean it. It's just a little out of character for a women who's been "perfect" and a marriage that's been "happy for twenty years".


I think you're probably right. She is trying to save me from more heartache.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

SimplyAmorous said:


> *Oh this is getting HEATED NOW... so an old friend of hers.. how long has this man been in your lives ? *
> 
> Apparently an old bf of hers who knew her past lifestyle a lot better than I did. He had not been in our lives at all for the past 20 years but just my luck, he walks in with his wife and son into the hospital where I work.
> 
> *and YOU KNEW this was the man... didn't you want to haul off and deck him a long time ago.... or did she leave out who he was ....I can't imagine a man of your character allowing that to just slide ..any man would be furious......*
> 
> 20 years ago, I wanted to find him and shoot him in the head but my wife wanted to leave this behind her and bury her so-called "Rape secret". Now I know why.
> 
> *Did he know all of these years she told YOU he raped her ? * He had no idea about the rape story that she had told me..
> 
> 
> 
> Ok ...confused .... just 2 days ago (post #100).. you said this
> 
> 
> 
> You said in another post, she does NOT want this to come out...but now she is telling you -"you can go find happiness elsewhere", putting up a wall... is this because you let it rip (not exactly slip) that you were thinking of evening the score and sleeping with anther woman ?


I guess it's my fault. I've been sarcastic with her and pushing her buttons in all the wrong ways. She's been trying hard to make me happy but I've been somewhat of an ass. She told me that she would do anything to make me happy again and my reply to her was, "I want to F**K another woman so I can feel what another P***Y feels like" I'm still beating myself up for saying that to her but I have the right to be somewhat angry. She tries to give me a blow job everyday and it seems kind of awkward and almost forced. I enjoy sex with her but it seems like every time that she sees me a bit depressed, she strips down and I can't say no but I feel like we need to talk more rather than "do more". She's trying everything that she knows makes me happy from my favorite food, compliments to ofcourse sex. Physically I keep going but emotionally, I feel drained.


----------



## norajane

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I guess it's my fault. I've been sarcastic with her and pushing her buttons in all the wrong ways. She's been trying hard to make me happy but I've been somewhat of an ass. She told me that she would do anything to make me happy again and my reply to her was, "I want to F**K another woman so I can feel what another P***Y feels like" I'm still beating myself up for saying that to her but I have the right to be somewhat angry. She tries to give me a blow job everyday and it seems kind of awkward and almost forced. I enjoy sex with her but it seems like every time that she sees me a bit depressed, she strips down and I can't say no but I feel like we need to talk more rather than "do more". She's trying everything that she knows makes me happy from my favorite food, compliments to ofcourse sex. Physically I keep going but emotionally, I feel drained.


I say this with the best of intentions - you can't change the facts, so all you can control now is how you choose to move forward. At some point, maybe not right now, but at some point, if you want to stay married, you have to choose to stop feeling sorry for yourself and let this go. 

How? You actively focus on the positives - and there should be many of those during this 20 years of a great marriage. Every time you start thinking and getting upset, re-focus your thoughts to something else, like when your kids were born, or when your wife was there for you during a time of need or a family trip you took. You have to take that action yourself to stop wallowing in your anger and hurt, and help yourself heal. Unless you plan to leave her, you will have to do this.

Take a few days off if you can, go away for the weekend with your wife. Reconnect. I know you're seeing her now as though she's the spawn of Satan and not worthy of being married to you, but really, she's the same woman who stayed up all night taking care of the kids when they were sick, the same woman who kept house and home with you for the last 20 years, and the same woman you've gone to bed with every night for the last 20 years. 

Maybe she's not exactly the woman you _thought _she was, but she is most certainly the same woman you have actually been with and loved for the past 20 years, and who has loved you in the best way possible for all that time.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I guess it's my fault. I've been sarcastic with her and pushing her buttons in all the wrong ways. She's been trying hard to make me happy but I've been somewhat of an ass. She told me that she would do anything to make me happy again and my reply to her was, "I want to F**K another woman so I can feel what another P***Y feels like" I'm still beating myself up for saying that to her but I have the right to be somewhat angry. She tries to give me a blow job everyday and it seems kind of awkward and almost forced. I enjoy sex with her but it seems like every time that she sees me a bit depressed, she strips down and I can't say no but I feel like we need to talk more rather than "do more". She's trying everything that she knows makes me happy from my favorite food, compliments to ofcourse sex. Physically I keep going but emotionally, I feel drained.


This would be very difficult for me. The fact that she lied about her sexual activity with other men before you were married and continued to keep that secret from you until you found out from another source tells me that her deceiving you is a basic part of your marriage, and that leads me to this question: Is this lie the only lie she's told you about her sexual activity with other people?

I think you need to go with a polygraph. A few simple questions could put to rest any doubts about whether she's been faithful during your marriage, and once you have laid that issue to rest you should be able to talk it all out in MC. She can't fvck the doubts out of you, particularly when her fvcking is what you have doubts about. Her avoiding talking about it is not going to help you rebuild trust in her.


----------



## samyeagar

Seriously, I really think this is one of those things that she told the lie way back then, but there hasn't been any kind of sinister plot to keep the truth hidden. She told it because she was in love, didn't want to lose him, didn't want to hurt him, and she had probably long forgotten even telling it.

Yes, she lied. Lying about rape is never OK, but she was young and naive. She lied about her past number of partners. That wasn't right, but that is a very common lie people tell. None of that makes it right, but to me, it is al least understandable.

I really don't think that this is a 20 year pattern of deception on her part. There is no reason to believe that she has been lying about everything under the sun since. Is this something that happened in the first few months of the relationship, and then never revisited? How often did he ask her for more details about her past? Is this a lie that she actively maintained, and kept telling when things came up? Or did it never come up again, and they moved on? Again, lying is bad. It's wrong, it's not good, and any other superlatives you want to throw in, but in the grand scheme of things here, I just don't see this as the most eggregious thing a person could do wrong.


----------



## samyeagar

Let me tell, you. I understand where you are coming from in this. I really do. The mind movies are awful. I have a two hour commute to work and two hours home every day, so I have a lot of time to think, and sometimes my mind goes places it shouldn't. My STBW has some very unpleasant things things in her past. Some she regrets dearly, others not so much. Sometimes, I wish she HAD lied to me about some things, but in the end, she is a fantastic woman who is completely and totally in love with me, would move heaven and earth for me, respects me, adores me, cherishes me and that in large part is BECAUSE of her past, not in spite of it.

Oh, and one thing for sure about the patterns in her past, and her sexuality in general...I am never going to have a sexless marriage


----------



## Thor

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I think you're probably right. She is trying to save me from more heartache.


No, she is trying to keep secrets from you because she worries if you knew the truth you might not choose to stay in the marriage.

If she really was trying to protect your heart she would say she will answer everything fully, but she first wants you to take some time to be sure you want to hear it, because once heard it cannot be unheard. She would tell you she will go to marriage counseling and give it a genuine strong effort. She would easily tell you details which you don't yet know but which aren't so bad. She would verbalize regret at lying to you and offer some form of self analysis of what her mindset was at the time, and how she now views that mindset as defective.

One option for you now is to start writing down a list of questions you have. Brainstorm it, don't hold back anything. Then sit on it for a week, or better yet take it to your IC and discuss it. Take it to your MC and discuss it. You'll come to see what some of your fears are. You'll also see that you have some very legitimate questions in there.

At that point your wife should willingly and fully answer those questions you still want answered.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

larry.gray said:


> *This STILL is dangerous grounds to cover.
> 
> What he would need to do for a prospective wife to open up is to bury his strong stance to marry a woman who hasn't been with another man. To a degree, that's a form of dishonesty.
> 
> You'd also really have to feel for a gal who falls in love with him, opens up and then is told "sorry... NEXT.*


I wish you all knew him.. he is not like this...4 yrs ago now.. this was the thread.... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ifes-sexual-past-lies-about-being-virgin.html I was glued to TAM.. he was sitting in the room, I did some posts on here because I actually FELT the awful position this girl was in.. me & son had a long talk that very day, I made him read this thread.....I told him I didn't want to see that happen to him.. Now he is a very reasonable person... a thinker like me....we debate all the time.. love it.

YES.. it's true...ultimately this is what he would like to find in life.. a girl who feels as he does...and has waited.. but he's not a fool.. this is asking for a pipe dream in today's society & he may as well scratch 95% of all good looking women (and yeah he is picky here )... He heard my wisdom... and many times since that day....we'd talk about things like this..( he is a psyche major after all )... he's made it very clear that what is important to him is *WHERE THE WOMAN IS NOW --not where she has been..* 

So No, he is not the type that would say... "NEXT".. if this is how my post came off.... it wasn't meant to...

Heck one of his best friends , a Youth Pastor, used to be in jail, nasty womanizer, he thinks the absolute world of this guy.. He is far from judgemental of a person's past.. most of his friends came from some real sh** to be honest. 

But in the same breath.. this is how he feels and he is not going to go bed a bunch of chicks just cause society states this is what makes you a A MAN.. the big Stud. He lives his values .. I will respect him in his choices...even if I Razz him every now & then he needs to get LAID... You'd just have to know us.



> *Machiavelli said*: *The problem for SA's son is that he's going to have to focus on younger girls if he wants a virgin, but that's only a problem if you make it one.*


 There is one from our church who is only 16 ...her Mom loves him too...but he is not home enough to pursue her & she is young....also the church he is at now.. the Pastor's daughter is a potential.. I would assume she still is...and very pretty ...they did the "Everything Skit" together..they look great together too... but she is leaving for college in another state.... he hasn't tried to move in on her... I must admit he doesn't put himself out there like he should.. a bit like his dad in this way.... 

What my son has going for him is ..he's good looking.. .he is happy, well liked.. but he is not a BAD BOY...and never will have anything in common with those types of men, and if the woman turns her nose to Christianity & wants to belittle his beliefs.. he wouldn't be interested. 



> *2ntnuf said*: *I think it will be tough to find what SA's son wants in a woman, but no tougher than anyone else. There are women out there who will fall into his general conditions. She's raising an intelligent son. He'll work it out with her help. Sometimes, we have to decide we want a red car instead of the blue, but we are still happy. In time, it will work out, SA. His and her happiness is what is most important.*










and I hope so, his attitude is.. if he can't find the one that floats his boat and rocks his world upside down, he will keep chugging along -he'd like to find her soon, but he isn't going to settle ....even if he remains alone... he feels he would be happy... When I was younger I wanted romance badly enough to pray at a young age for "the ONE"... so I cant relate to his enjoying single hood like this... but I am not going to mock it.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Cletus said:


> Does one not reevaluate how attached one is to his preferences when two decades of counter-evidence from his own life are considered? And how meaningful and predictive those preferences ever were in the past?


Here we go: 

OP: I will not marry any woman who does not have "Z".
Wife: I do not have Z, but I will deceive the OP into understanding why I don't have Z. 
They marry and have 20 yrs of happy marriage. 

Cletus is arguing that this is prima facie evidence that Z has not proven to be important. Everyone else is arguing .... IT DOES NOT MATTER what Z was, the deception was a betrayal. 

You can not argue what you do not know. If the OP's wife had told the truth, the OP might have found a marriage partner that brought him true bliss or utter destruction. The point is: the OP will never know, this choice was made for him. I assume you do not allow people to make choices for you? 

The OP's wife adopted a persona 20 yrs ago that has recently collapsed. Poor character can improve, liars can become trustworthy, and controlling people can surrender. The OP has a lot to consider and I wish him well. 

It may very well be that Z is no longer important to the OP. Does that mean her betrayal is moot? Can you imagine what that means ... betray everyone about everything, and if they never find out, it wasn't important. Sounds like a narcissist's dream ... count me out.


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## Thor

Jung_admirer said:


> Cletus is arguing that this is prima facie evidence that Z has not proven to be important. Everyone else is arguing .... IT DOES NOT MATTER what Z was, the deception was a betrayal.


I am in the latter camp, because of personal experience, where the deception is by far the big betrayal.

However, Z has not been proven unimportant. OP believed she had Z, and thus he believed they had common experiences and common values. Perhaps OP's incorrect beliefs aided him in having a good 20 years. Perhaps had he known she "didn't have Z" it would have changed his perceptions all during those 20 years.


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## SimplyAmorous

2ntnuf said:


> *So, you might put sexual experience on a pedestal?* I don't think either is wrong. I just think it's preference.


 I agree 2ntnuf....We all have our own said pedestals....and preferences don't we.. can we try not to belittle others wants and desires, even if we Don't understand them....and find it wholly foolish.

Were any of us the perfect specimen of a man at 19 yrs old - had the wisdom of the ages.... My dear husband wanted a virgin too... I'm freaking happy he was sensitive and was geared that way -GOD BLESS HIM ...this , in my eyes, satisfied the Romantic in me.. which is probably something I put on a damn pedestal... and frankly I'd be fool to marry a man who wasn't geared the same as I .... if he so much told me Romance was over rated, I'd want to slug him....No, that wouldn't have lasted. .I'm afraid.... 

To be self aware enough to know what you really want.. helpful if you can spell it out.. that's a beautiful thing ...not saying BBR was like this.. but hey....in stead of putting our heads in the sand....never having these conversations, that LOVE will conquer all.. those are the ones I'd be more worried about..

Look the man has seen the folly of his rigidness.. but downing his caring for what he wanted.. doesn't sit well with me... so I stand in defense of him on that... 

I've known women how have the wallet on the pedestal.. some will bash the virgins & say "What the he**would you want that for .. they're all prudes dude, move on!"..... to each their own..



> *tryingtobebetter said*: *Is it not that some things are important to some people and not to others? Apparently it is important to some women that a man be Caucasian, six foot with blue eyes (hey, I am a catch!), to others it matters not at all. Tall women often want taller men etc.
> 
> There is almost no limit to the rich variety of human nature.*


 Amen..I got lots of deal breakers and they are NOT what some other women would have at all....we each have the right to feel as we do... at any measure of any scale as we choose as well......so long as we represent *the TRUTH *while getting to know someone.. if they think we are too uptight, they can move along. 



sidney2718 said:


> *My comment here is a sidebar to the thread but I think it is instructive. The notion of the importance of female virginity seems to come from an age where males basically owned their wives and daughters. Worse, the notion back then was that women stored sperm so that once she had sex with someone other than her husband there is no telling who the real father of her children was*.


 these things are also embedded in the Romantic view of sexuality..saving yourself for your soul mate.... you can't just dismiss all of us that easy ... 



> *Since nobody much cares about men being virgins (I have never in my long time on this earth heard a woman say she's sorry she didn't marry a virgin) it all seems very very unfair*.


I cared....I even PRAYED FOR ONE ... I wanted to share in every awkward thrilling vulnerable moment with one special man, me being his 1st and his being mine.. It wouldn't have been a deal breaker by any means.. but having the choice.. Oh yes.. this is what I deeply wanted.. I also wanted Young love though...while most want to Party hardy in their youth.


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## sidney2718

Csquare said:


> Still, it's quite appalling her bald-faced lies to him about the "rape". And the fact that she lied for so long. What else has she lied about in order to make him"happy" for 20 years: child-rearing issues? Finance issues? Talking to friends about his secrets issues?
> 
> A good marriage requires trust and trustworthiness. He has every right to insist that she come clean. And if she has any integrity at all, you'd think she would want to be honest with him.


I don't recall the OP saying that she "lied for so long". I understood the situtation to be that she lied when she was first asked and had to give a quick answer, and that it was never discussed again until DDay here.

That does not make her a serial liar or financially untrustworthy. On the other hand having *four* children does, in my opinion, count in her favor.


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## sidney2718

Broken.Beyond.Repair said, a fair while back that:



> This person who shared this information with me was the one that she had accused of rape 20 years ago but he had a very different story to tell which she corroborated after a heated confrontation.


Several of us then asked for further explanation. No explanation has been forthcoming, which concerns me greatly.

1) The person who spilled the beans on BBR's wife was the one she accused of rape 20 years ago? You KNOW this person? How did you happen to be talking to him? I'd have expected a fist-fight. Rape IS A CRIME, isn't it?

2) So you are talking all nice like to this guy you think raped your wife and then he tells you a story about your wife's ****ty behavior before you and she married? YOU LISTENED TO THIS and believed it? WHY? Why would you believe a story told to you by a man you believed to be a rapist?

3) Then you run home and confront your wife with the story. I can hear it now: "Wife, I just ran into your rapist on the street and we were standing around talking and he said that back 20 years ago you were a very ****ty girl. That's right, isn't it?"

None of this makes any sense to me. At best you are leaving out parts of the story that are crucial for us to understand what is going on and at worst would reveal this whole thread as a sham.

Please, please address this issue. Tell me how wrong I am. Explain how it actually went down.


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## 2ntnuf

sidney,(BBR and everyone else)

That's why I keep coming back. I just don't believe it's real. It's interesting though, from my own perspective of things in my last marriage. Now, if anyone thinks I personally have had some revelation because of this, you're wrong. I have always believed as I have written here. There is nothing new. I've always given the benefit of the doubt. However, I do have my own personal preferences and no thread is going to make me go out and pick up a woman who I might be interested in marrying and believe what she tells me. (Much of the rest of this post is toward everyone, more than just sydney. sydney just made me think about this enough to write. Okay, I'm blame-shifting. Tough.)

I don't expect her to believe me, either. I've encountered that here and in real life as well. Most folks can't even imagine that a person would have such preferences in place they would not consider sex, in and of itself, so important, that they would overlook other things, even just to have a ONS. I'm not that way. I think that's how these attitudes are created. When we have serious relationships and do try the best we can to know the person before having sex, we at least show that we are looking for a steady partner. 

I cannot seem to wrap my head around doing it just because it's fun and we need it. I just can't. I wish, sometimes, that I could. I would like to go out and have sex with the first woman who I find mutually attractive and willing. I've had opportunities and turned them down. I guess for me, it's not knowing who that person is inside, that turns me off. It's also about their habits. I just always believed, before knowing the terms like, "the fog", "infatuation love", etc., that there was a bond made through sex. I was told this and I experienced it. 

I never thought I could counter what came naturally. This infatuation love does come naturally. It is built into our brains and bodies. I don't want to change that. It's there for a reason. It's there, in my opinion, to draw us together and keep us close, while still not know each other. It's there, I imagine, to protect each of us. 

I've wrestled with, "How do I overcome this? How do I keep myself from falling in love with a woman, just from sex? How do I keep myself from having a broken heart all the time?" I just don't know the answers to these questions. I can't seem to find them. Maybe I feel more than most folks? I don't know. I don't think I place the high value on women that makes me the typical, madonna sex syndrom candidate. I don't even come close to the definition. I've looked it up.

What I do know is, I value sex with another human being, in my case women, as something more than just the coming together of two bodies. I think of it as a merging of minds, emotions, and if you are religious, souls. I do think we leave a part of us with that person we have sex with. I don't want to share that with everyone I have an opportunity with. 

It's not that I think I am too good to share, it's the value I place on, "OUR", union, the couple within that sexual encounter. Hell, I've talked about what I've done, some of it anyway, within this very thread. It's not the act of sex. None of you know what it's like to be with me. Okay, I can hear the, "Thank God's", and the, "There's no way in hell's". I'm actually smiling while I type that. We probably feel the same way. 

That's not to say you aren't worth it. It's just to say that we aren't compatible, in many cases. That's a good thing. You all have boundaries and so do I.

In any case, I don't see the big deal about what a person likes to do, or doesn't, in most cases. We all have our limitations, though. Nothing wrong with that. What is bad is deception. What is bad is not knowing ourselvess

I do think BBR, if he is real, is going to have to somehow reconcile his personal beliefs with the reality he lives every day. Like one member said, he may not be able to do that. He'll be lying to himself. How can he be happy with that? 

I don't think BBR should go out and have sex with other women while he is married. However, I know his remark was based partly in truth. He didn't lie to her about that part. I would think and do think the same thing many times, when I've considered what it would take for me to reconcile. Don't worry. It won't happen. I've just tried to understand what it might take. I don't think I could do it. 

When folks talk about past partners, I think about how I felt in my second marriage. I didn't like it, but I just let it go, because it's not helpful and it was before me. Now, I'd have to recognise that x2 did know me and was with me. She made the conscious decision to have sex with someone else and that would be in my mind each time we had sex. That would be a life of hell. 

I wonder if that is what BBR is having trouble with? I don't know. He has not been very forth-coming with those types of thoughts. That's what makes me think, either he's gone through this or is trying to teach others a lesson. It would be wrong to lie about this, but it would be a type of revenge, if his wife came here and was told not to tell him and he found out. Unlikely, I know. It did cross my mind. 

Anyway, my conclusions are, if I had to reconcile or wanted it, I'd have to go have sex with others. I might have to do it after we got back together, as well. I would want her to know that I might do it. I would want her not to do it, but afford me the right to my thoughts as I am her's when we slept together again. Yes, that may be a bit sick, but it's tough to get around. We don't know what anyone is thinking. 

I guess it's a form of revenge, also. I don't like that. I don't know how BBR might get around that issue. It would be tough to just let it go, no matter what is going on. I do think he has a right to it, which disturbs me as much as what I wrote about myself above. I don't like that at all about myself. I know it's a factor in me moving forward, among many others, but it is part of the damage of betrayal. 

Notice, I did not write, "infidelity". I wrote, "betrayal". There is a difference, although for some, may be very subtle. It is a definite difference for me. I wonder if it is for BBR, as well?


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

larry.gray said:


> Have you considered inviting her here BBR?


Larry.Gray, I have no intentions of inviting her here for the plain and simple fact that this forum is the only thing in my life that I have kept secret from her and I need this privacy from her. I have been so open with her in life that she knows everything about me but on the other hand, I knew very little about her and I'm pretty sure that there's A LOT more that I don't know. I don't know if this makes sense but in a way this is my time away from her.


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## Broken.Beyond.Repair

manticore said:


> for her the lie was 20 years ago so *she had 20 years to get over the guilt for lying to you, your wife is taking the same stance that FWW take when they are caught of cheating many years ago.
> 
> they have many years to analyze, rationalyze and get over what they did, but for you is new and is not different that feeling it as if it happened the day you knew the truth.
> *
> as other users say, it could be benefical for you to brought her here, to see that she can not minimize her actions, and that *actions that were made years ago feel as just as recently done for those who uncover the truth aboout the deceit.*


Manticore, that's* EXACTLY *how I feel.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

sidney2718 said:


> Whoa! Slow down here. Are you telling us that you've known her supposed rapist for YEARS? And never did anything?
> 
> And how did you come to be talking to him about your wife's supposed rape? I could just be being very stupid, but there seems to me to be something curious here.
> 
> 
> 
> So after a week of continuously badgering her about this after she'd come clean and admitted she'd had a wild life before meeting you, she's had enough and snaps at you. And you are surprised?
> 
> You two were not married when this happened. And you show every indication of NEVER EVER dropping the subject. What did you expect her to say that she's not already said? I don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> *In other words she told you the truth and you keep questioning her over and over again, as if she could do something about the past. Or are you waiting for more titillating information from her?
> * Yes, I pressed her for details about her sexual past trying to comprehend her state of mind back then which would allow her to do the things that she did because it's very difficult for me to grasp this reality about my wife.
> 
> 
> *But I do hope that you explain to us how this conversation with the "rapist" ever came about. It seems very strange that you would discuss such intimate information with someone outside the marriage. Or did he bring it up and if so, why and why did you even talk to him?*


Well I won't call him a "rapist" because he wasn't one. I had never met the guy but I knew his name. His son was my colleague's patient and went inside to have the procedure done with his mother. Apparently he recognized me because he greeted me by saying, "you're (my wife's name) husband right?" As soon as he said this, his last name clicked in my head as it is not a common name. I felt my head getting hot as if it was going to blow. I turned around and said, "Yes and you are?" He introduced himself by saying his name and that he use to date my wife. His wife was inside with his son and my colleague, the waiting room was empty and I started shooting questions at him which he didn't mind answering at all. He gave me honest & explicit answers to everything that I wanted to know about my wife and I guess the rest is history.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

Dad&Hubby said:


> I'm wondering the same thing here.
> 
> This doesn't make sense AT ALL.
> 
> So your wife's supposed rapist is still in her life? Really?
> 
> So you either knew that this man supposedly raped your wife and you allowed him to remain in your life? :scratchhead:
> 
> You didn't know that this man was the one who supposedly raped your wife, but your wife did and accused him but kept him in her life? :scratchhead:
> 
> What's the deal here. This detail throws this thread into a whole new area.
> 
> PS if a man raped my wife (regardless of before us meeting) I would want to rearrange the twig and berries of the man, even if I was 80.


This man has NEVER been a part of my life or my wife's married life as far as I know. Infact, I didn't even really know what he looked like until I came face to face with him just recently. Soon after getting married, my wife and I moved 2 hours away to a small town but my work would bring me back to the city on a regular basis.


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## SimplyAmorous

Thundarr said:


> Makes since. Lack of sexual experience is *sometimes* driven by sexual guilt or lack of desire. Those are risks.





> Both are possible obviously but you have to admit that many who are driven by hormones; give in to sex; whereas many who are not; avoid it. So virgins would *statistically have a higher percentage *of people with sexual fear or dysfunction than would non-virgins.





Cletus said:


> Exactly. Chastity was important to my wife in part *because sex was so unimportant.*


I appreciate the "*sometimes"* / *the statistically higher*...not painting all such women or men for that matter with the same brush......It disheartens me that so often women who wait today are put down so fast, assumed to be __________ or ___________ sure a man needs to be ever careful he marries a woman who wants sex, craves it...is highly attracted to him even....so he will not suffer in marriage... it's VITAL to his happiness... I wouldn't wish those things on my worst enemy even!! 

Some of us had other reasons for not wanting to go all the way.. I was a horny chick..masturbating, hot fantasies since I was 11 or so, Loved the boys too... ..if something brushed up against me in the middle of the night... it was ON... even if I felt kinda dirty about it (girls never talked about masturbating!)..

Yet...I was turned completely off .... how carelessly sex was used by young people...bonking each other all over the freaking place , watching my friends crying.. heartbreak... a couple pregnant, the guy was GONE...how utterly devastating..... not to mention how my mother was treated, different men using her..& how it fcked up her life..... I wanted NO PART of these things... Not every girl who wants to wait is plagued with Low drive.. we can have other reasons paramount in our minds ...(and our hearts)

If a girl shuns being touched at all though...as the relationship grows strings... I would think something was terribly amiss ..... RED FLAGS ....yes....I could never never never relate to that, I was burning with LUST.... yet we held our boundaries.. ... Shouldn't there be some boundaries depending on where a couple is in a relationship.... Don't answer.. for most, it's just "put a condom on it" - have fun...I know.. 

I've always initiated my husband...after so many days I would chase him down...and boy oh boy....he better give it to me when I want it too..he's never let me down...... My inexperienced "didn't stick it in" till age 25 husband...he's always known what to do with me....sexual pleasure the greatest of Joys in his world. 

It's just not always a nightmare or a sob story to marry someone inexperienced. ... excuse me - I just wanted to say this. 



2ntnuf said:


> I hope you're getting the info you need from your wife. I think that will help along with reading HisNeeds/HerNeeds and working through the exercises. I think, if you pledge yourselves to each other, once again, you may feel like newlyweds.


Best marriage book I've ever come upon and I seem to collect them... 
His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage  ~ these are the Core Emotional Needs addressed in that book....



> 10 Emotional needs:
> 
> 
> 1. *Admiration*
> 2. *Affection*
> 3. *Conversation*
> 4. *Domestic support*
> 5. *Family commitment*
> 6.* Financial support*
> 7. *Honesty and openness*
> 8. *Physical attractiveness*
> 9. *Recreational companionship*
> 10. *Sexual fulfillment*










 Emotional Needs Questionnaire


----------



## Jung_admirer

Thor said:


> I am in the latter camp, because of personal experience, where the deception is by far the big betrayal.
> 
> However, Z has not been proven unimportant. OP believed she had Z, and thus he believed they had common experiences and common values. *Perhaps* OP's incorrect beliefs aided him in having a good 20 years. *Perhaps* had he known she "didn't have Z" it would have changed his perceptions all during those 20 years.


Perhaps is nice isn't it? It's painful growing up and accepting responsibility for our decisions and our deeply held beliefs (right or wrong). The OP was denied this opportunity when he was deceived.

*Perhaps* when the OP's wife said she didn't have Z, this could have begun a dialogue. *Perhaps* this discussion would have been just what the OP needed to grow? I guess we'll never know.


----------



## Thor

Jung_admirer said:


> *Perhaps* when the OP's wife said she didn't have Z, this could have begun a dialogue. *Perhaps* this discussion would have been just what the OP needed to grow? I guess we'll never know.


The future will be some indicator. If the marriage survives and the couple becomes closer as a result of this, it suggests an honest discussion all those years ago would most likely have resulted in them staying together. If the marriage fails due to the issue of her not being a virgin, it means his values are immovable and incompatible with hers.

The third option is the marriage fails due to the crisis of the deception.


----------



## Jung_admirer

OP, you are feeling the pain of betrayal, and your thoughts concerning a revenge affair are ABSOLUTELY NORMAL when the BS has not shown the remorse you need to experience. The truth of the matter is that you get to decide what you need from her remorse. 

If you accept my opinion that betrayal inside a marriage creates an attachment injury. So how do you fix an attachment injury? You can lookup "Hold me tight, attachment injury". In summary, you express your deep feelings, your partner validates those feelings and is not defensive/rationalizing. You are allowed to transfer some emotional pain associated with those feelings and your partner empathizes. I can't explain this ... there is something transcendent about actively sharing this pain that allows both people to begin to heal. This process affected me so deeply I can hardly explain. Other than a sociopath, human emotional memory is profoundly affected by this process. After sharing this pain, I will NEVER inflict this upon another. 

Jung would say this process bring consciousness to an unexpressed portion of your shadow. It is a very naked communion, profoundly intimate.


----------



## Thor

Fixing an attachment injury does require the betrayer to participate.


----------



## clipclop2

OP,

So the guy introduced himself and you started asking him questions about your wife's sexual past?

How about you share what you actually asked? Did it begin with a cordial, "Hey, I hear you raped my wife."?


----------



## sidney2718

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Well I won't call him a "rapist" because he wasn't one. I had never met the guy but I knew his name. His son was my colleague's patient and went inside to have the procedure done with his mother. Apparently he recognized me because he greeted me by saying, "you're (my wife's name) husband right?" As soon as he said this, his last name clicked in my head as it is not a common name. I felt my head getting hot as if it was going to blow. I turned around and said, "Yes and you are?" He introduced himself by saying his name and that he use to date my wife. His wife was inside with his son and my colleague, the waiting room was empty and I started shooting questions at him which he didn't mind answering at all. He gave me honest & explicit answers to everything that I wanted to know about my wife and I guess the rest is history.


Thank you. That was very helpful. About the only thing that I still don't quite get is, knowing you were married to the woman, why he would spill the beans the way he did.

But folks are funny and I wasn't there to understand the dynamic involved.


----------



## sidney2718

Thor said:


> The future will be some indicator. If the marriage survives and the couple becomes closer as a result of this, it suggests an honest discussion all those years ago would most likely have resulted in them staying together. If the marriage fails due to the issue of her not being a virgin, it means his values are immovable and incompatible with hers.
> 
> The third option is the marriage fails due to the crisis of the deception.


You may be right. But an honest discussion now involves two people both 20 years older. We all change with time. I know I've become more liberal about some things and more conservative about others. So it may not have a simple resolution. The genii will not go back into the bottle.

Still, as BBR said, the subject didn't come up again for 20 years. That has to mean something.


----------



## samyeagar

sidney2718 said:


> Thank you. That was very helpful. *About the only thing that I still don't quite get is, knowing you were married to the woman, why he would spill the beans the way he did*.
> 
> But folks are funny and I wasn't there to understand the dynamic involved.


That is one of those things I don't get either, but it is just the way some people are, and their attitude towards sex. Many of my STBW's friends are that way as well, and she is too to a certain extent. They have no problems talking about past partners, even when they all know them, and have shared some of them at various times. It is a more recreational view of sex. Myself, someone with a far more emotional view of sex, it is difficult to to understand the casual view.


----------



## Csquare

Interesting Mrs. BBR is trying to f0ck the issue away. Does she placate crying kids with candy as well?


----------



## samyeagar

Csquare said:


> Interesting Mrs. BBR is trying to f0ck the issue away. *Does she placate crying kids with candy as well*?


A husband isn't a kid...at least he shouldn't be...

It's not surprising that she would. They've had a great sex life, and the issue for BBR has just as much, if not more to do with the past sex than it does the lie. In her mind, she is probably trying to reassure him that sex with him is what she wants, and her past des not change that at all. Imagine the message it would send if she pulled back on sex, and where BBR's mind would go then.


----------



## 2ntnuf

No. The sex won't help as much as you think. The better she is at it, the more it will make him think about her sexual past. The worse she is, the more he will think about the lie.

In the end, she's best off, just being herself. He has to work through this and ask questions. He has to reevaluate his decisions, based on what he believes is most important. He has to reconsider his past, to some extent and see how much she had duped him and how much he agreed with and just let happen. 

He has to realise he let things happen and it wasn't all her deception. He did have responsibility to himself and his happiness along the way. If she didn't please him, he would probably not be there now, to go through this. 

Still, he has to rebuild his trust in himself and her. He has to realise, he cannot trust anyone completely. He has to give her an opportunity to earn his trust. 

Like I posted before. they need to almost, start the whole thing over. That's why he needs to learn who she is. I'm surprised there weren't more books posted on how to learn about a spouse and grow with them.

Edit: Above all, she has to be honest with him in everything. If she is embarrassed to talk about something, she needs to say that and not be deceptive. He will have to let her know if he needs to know whatever that is or not. She, because of that lie and the ensuing lack of trust, will have to find the inner strength to talk about it, at least some. He will have to understand how tough that is for her.


----------



## jaharthur

I plowed through all of this thread. People are all over the place in their reactions, some unnecessarily cruel, I thought (especially one whom I am glad to see was banned). As someone currently dealing with RJ--although with no deception at issue, just late discovery--I started with compassion for BBR. Then some of his statements seemed extraordinarily rigid and vindictive. Then the pendulum swung the other way and he seemed to become more understanding of the plight he may have put his wife in 20 years ago and the value of 20 years of her being a perfect wife.

But I have to admit I find it hard really to evaluate the whole situation because I'm not sure what BBR meant when he wrote that his wife was "to put it lightly, very sexually experienced." Everything that has been said is consistent with her having had just one partner, the guy who didn't rape her. It could also be consistent with 25 partners.

The reason I'm curious is because it would shed light on whether it's the lie or the experiences with one guy or experiences with many guys that bother BBR. The answer could affect my reaction and suggestions.

I guess we will never know.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Maybe BBR will elaborate for us and answer your question.

HM


----------



## treyvion

jaharthur said:


> I plowed through all of this thread. People are all over the place in their reactions, some unnecessarily cruel, I thought (especially one whom I am glad to see was banned). As someone currently dealing with RJ--although with no deception at issue, just late discovery--I started with compassion for BBR. Then some of his statements seemed extraordinarily rigid and vindictive. Then the pendulum swung the other way and he seemed to become more understanding of the plight he may have put his wife in 20 years ago and the value of 20 years of her being a perfect wife.
> 
> But I have to admit I find it hard really to evaluate the whole situation because I'm not sure what BBR meant when he wrote that his wife was "to put it lightly, very sexually experienced." Everything that has been said is consistent with her having had just one partner, the guy who didn't rape her. It could also be consistent with 25 partners.
> 
> The reason I'm curious is because it would shed light on whether it's the lie or the experiences with one guy or experiences with many guys that bother BBR. The answer could affect my reaction and suggestions.
> 
> I guess we will never know.


It's curious whether that she had one partner where she became very experienced or several dozens and had a real carefree attitude about the entire thing.

The only thing that really hurts, is that the outsider gets to tell the husband this and he had no clue... It makes the husband almost the outsider to the situation.


----------



## samyeagar

treyvion said:


> It's curious whether that she had one partner where she became very experienced or several dozens and had a real carefree attitude about the entire thing.
> 
> *The only thing that really hurts, is that the outsider gets to tell the husband this and he had no clue... It makes the husband almost the outsider to the situation*.


That right there is one of the main reasons I want to know certain things about my STBW's past, as unpleasant as they may be for me to hear. I don't want to be the outsider on an inside joke...


----------



## Thundarr

samyeagar said:


> That right there is one of the main reasons I want to know certain things about my STBW's past, as unpleasant as they may be for me to hear. I don't want to be the outsider on an inside joke...


That's really a simple concept and it's NOT driven by judgement.


----------



## samyeagar

Thundarr said:


> That's really a simple concept and it's NOT driven by judgement.


You are correct, it's not driven by judgement, and that is one of the things that really irritates me about people who have no idea what RJ is really about.

I make no judgements on my STBW's past. I don't think of her as any less wonderful at all. I fell completely in love with her knowing a lot, and more does come out from time to time. She isn't trickle truthing me at all. That implies intent. What it really means is that she just doesn't think about things because she has already processed it and moved on. She is however completely honest with me, even when she knows I won't like it, and always tries to give me a heads up if she thinks I need one. She gets it, even though she has no idea how it feels to me because she feels very differently about certain things.


----------



## Thundarr

It's just dumb to keep secrets like this yet still live in the same area.


----------



## treyvion

Thundarr said:


> It's just dumb to keep secrets like this yet still live in the same area.


People will do it all the time. Not realizing or not caring that their spouse unaware is being seen in a dimmer light for not being in the know. It might make some sense to do some snooping on your partners life to see what they were doing before you.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Well, I found out lots in a bar with x2. NO idea in the world what was going on. I did not know what to say. It was out of the blue. She could have warned me, but she let me react. I was there to have a good time. I liked the people there and it was homey for me. That really smacks you in the face when you're unprepared. Especially when it's someone you know and have a little history with and trust, when you find out. "Barkeep? Bring me a triple Jameson with a pitcher of beer for a chaser, would you please?" hahahaha Not quite, but it did quickly cross my mind.


----------



## Blonde

jaharthur said:


> I'm not sure what BBR meant when he wrote that his wife was "to put it lightly, very sexually experienced." Everything that has been said is consistent with her having had just one partner, the guy who didn't rape her. It could also be consistent with 25 partners.


The guy that was TEN years older than her was her pimp and she was an underage prostitute...

...which would make her feel guilty even though it* is *statutory rape

...and would explain why she would revert to prostitute behavior when treated like crap



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I guess it's my fault. I've been sarcastic with her and pushing her buttons in all the wrong ways. She's been trying hard to make me happy* but I've been somewhat of an ass*. She told me that she would do anything to make me happy again and my reply to her was, "I want to F**K another woman so I can feel what another P***Y feels like" I'm still beating myself up for saying that to her but I have the right to be somewhat angry. She tries to give me a blow job everyday and it seems kind of awkward and almost forced. I enjoy sex with her but it seems like every time that she sees me a bit depressed, she strips down and I can't say no but I feel like we need to talk more rather than "do more". She's trying everything that she knows makes me happy from my favorite food, compliments to ofcourse sex. Physically I keep going but emotionally, I feel drained.


Just "somewhat"? 

Your wife needs IC so she can grow a backbone, develop some self respect, and forgive herself for mistakes she made when she was a teenager.


----------



## samyeagar

Blonde said:


> The guy that was TEN years older than her was her pimp and she was an underage prostitute...
> 
> ...which would make her feel guilty even though it* is *statutory rape
> 
> ...and would explain why she would revert to prostitute behavior when treated like crap
> 
> 
> 
> Just "somewhat"?
> 
> Your wife needs IC so she can grow a backbone, develop some self respect, and forgive herself for mistakes she made when she was a teenager.


With all due respect, I think this misses the mark entirely...unless it was all said in sarcasm...


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

clipclop2 said:


> People don't understand how a single lie can cast doubt on everything they have ever done and will ever do.
> 
> For the OP, *why not ask her for a lie detector test? * Clear up your big questions and heal. Live the next 20 in peace.[/QUOTE
> 
> A lie detector test sounds like a great idea because I honestly feel that there is A LOT more that I don't know about her. I am going to ask her to do this for me and I'm pretty sure that she will refuse which will make things ever harder for me. :scratchhead:


----------



## clipclop2

I think you are making things worse by staying here and beating this into a lather.

If you want a,happy future, leave TAM, seek local MC and never come back here again.


----------



## larry.gray

I think he's gotten a mix of good and bad here.

Several people have given pretty good advice.

Several have ridiculed him and his beliefs, and I certainly don't see that as helpful. Thankfully the obnoxious one was banned.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

JCD said:


> You said this
> 
> 
> 
> But before you said this:
> 
> 
> 
> That sounded like you were advocating making a rather poorly thought out threat but maybe you meant it another way.
> 
> Let me offer you a slightly different perspective:
> 
> "I was wildly sexually promiscuous as a young woman (i.e. had more than two sex partners according to the mores of twenty years ago). I was sort of naïve, and fell into a bad crowd because I was pretty. So I did things that weren't such a good idea."
> 
> "Then I met this great guy who wasn't like them. I wanted to leave all the bad things I did behind. I didn't like all the things I was asked to do. But BBR wasn't like that. He seemed like a REALLY GREAT GUY. So I accepted his approaches and I started to fall in love."
> 
> "Then he lays on me that we can never ever be together because he won't let go of things I can't undo. And I can't change his mind either. I know him! So in the THREE SECONDS I had in this conversation, I panicked and told him a story. Once I did that, I got locked into it."
> 
> "Now I've spent the last twenty years, being the best wife I can to him. Twenty years of sweaty socks. Twenty years of breakfasts and vacuuming, and taking care of the kids. They haven't always been amazing and we've had our friction, but I worked my butt off to make him happy, because it also made ME happy."
> 
> "Now, this one little lie has my husband of twenty years, whom I treated like gold, whom I had children for, now he looks at me like a *****, throws questions at me constantly and tells me he wants to CHEAT ON ME. I owe it to him! And he asks me filthy questions about the things I'd rather forget."
> 
> I am not saying he should forget about it. There are two sides to every story and just characterizing it as 'evil woman' isn't going to get very far. Few people are evil.
> 
> Please note that this assumes she did a LOT. I'm guessing it wasn't all that much. But neither of us knows.


It amazes me how well you put everything into precise perspective. It almost feels as if my wife wrote this to me.


----------



## larry.gray

JCD said:


> Please note that this assumes she did a LOT. I'm guessing it wasn't all that much. But neither of us knows.


I missed this before. That is a very real possibility. 

What you wife may not realize is just how active and creative men's minds can be about sex. I'd tell her that you're imagining all sorts of nasty things, and you'd bet there are things you're thinking of that she didn't do.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

larry.gray said:


> I missed this before. That is a very real possibility.
> 
> What you wife may not realize is just how active and creative men's minds can be about sex. *I'd tell her that you're imagining all sorts of nasty things, and you'd bet there are things you're thinking of that she didn't do.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> I told her exactly this to which she replied, "If I told you every single thing that I did then I could never look you in the eyes again, I could never be with you". After she said this to me, I backed off a bit about asking her anymore questions because I don't want to lose her.


----------



## larry.gray

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> I told her exactly this to which she replied, "If I told you every single thing that I did then I could never look you in the eyes again, I could never be with you". After she said this to me, I backed off a bit about asking her anymore questions because I don't want to lose her.


Interesting response. That pretty much crushes the "I don't remember" line of response. It also shows she's has regret about doing them. I think my biggest fear if I was in your shoes would be that she had more fun with these other guys - that she had a blast doing it - is not your worry.


----------



## manticore

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> A lie detector test sounds like a great idea because I honestly feel that there is A LOT more that I don't know about her. I am going to ask her to do this for me and I'm pretty sure that she will refuse which will make things ever harder for me. :scratchhead:


BBR when you said *"I honestly feel that there is A LOT more that I don't know about her"*, what are you talking about?.

if you are talking about sexual partners, yes, she probably had more, but don't torture yourself about it, as you saw in my posts, I don't minimize your feelings through this situation, but the way you described your marriage when you first arrived it sounds like you have a great thing there.

you probably are in your right to know, but analyze if at this point this is healthy for you to keep diging about what happened before you came in to the picture, if your wife is a great partner, good mother, supportive and commited to you then focus on that, you need time to grieve what you feel lost, but you also need to focus in the person she is now thanks to your influence in her life, as I told you before there is a lot of people that wish a marriage like the one you described that you have with your wife.

Go to IC try to bond in a emotional level with your wife again, for what you described in these last days since the finding she is desesperate to get in your good side and she is focusing in the sexual part for fear that you would decide to go and look for other women, but you seems to need more her emotinal support than physical fullfilment, be honest and said that to her.


----------



## Broken.Beyond.Repair

manticore said:


> BBR when you said *"I honestly feel that there is A LOT more that I don't know about her", what are you talking about?.*
> 
> if you are talking about sexual partners, yes, she probably had more, but don't torture yourself about it, as you saw in my posts, I don't minimize your feelings through this situation, but the way you described your marriage when you first arrived it sounds like you have a great thing there.
> 
> you probably are in your right to know, but analyze if at this point this is healthy for you to keep diging about what happenbed before tou came in to the picture, if your wife is a great partner, good mother, supportive and commited to you then focus on that, you need time to grieve what you feel lost, but you also need to focus in the person she is now thanks to your influence in her life, as I told you before there is a lot of people that wish in a marrige like the one you described that you have with your wife.
> 
> Go to IC try to bond in a emotinal level with your wife again, for what you described in these last days since the finding she is desesperate to get in your good side and she is focusing in the sexual part for fear that you would decide to go and look for other women, but you seems to need more her emotinal support than physical fullfilment, be honest and said that to her.


Her ex mentioned their involvement in a "gang bang" with her as the only female but I haven't had the guts to ask her about this. Another issue was being "pimped out" which is another point which is hard for me to swallow. She asked me several times, *"What did he exactly tell you about me?" * to which my response is: "I only want to hear what you have to tell me." I made it clear to her yesterday that I have NO plans on breaking up our marriage and NO plans of cheating on her. I have been reminding her of all the good times that we have had together and I also told her that I want to grow old with her. Yes, you are absolutely correct, I do need that emotional support from her more than the sexual part.


----------



## manticore

I have to accept that those actions are very hard truths to swallow, and even a person with no problems regarding previous partners could find this disturbing and a reason to not begin a serious relationship with a woman with that kind of past.

I will also have to question the intetions of the person who shared this information with you, I could understand the fact of clearing his name about he not being a rapist but disclosing that information to a husband of a woman who was in his past, it looks like his intetions were far from helpful and he wanted to disrupt your life by sharing those details, to be honest with you although giving you that information make his character far for honorable I don't think he lied about it (no reason to do it unless he is going after your wife and is looking to damage your relatainship with her).

I guess that I would focus in finding from her is she still have any kind of contact with any of the men that were in his past (not to find the all the details, just to know if she is still in any kind of contact with one of those people), you never know what kind of gossips or comments they can said around your family, friends or kids.

still does not change the fact tha if she really has behaved as the perfect GF/wife from the moment you got together, you should try to focus in the person you have known since you meet her and no the one that she was before you entered in her life.


----------



## Emptyshelldad

I myself always need total honesty. And if she didn't feel comfortable sharing this with you, then it's a major problem for me. 

But your severe judgement is not going to make her want to open up to you bud. I think she is is saying that if you knew all she did, you would leave her. This is not love. If you truly love her, then you want her to be open and honest with you as to avoid a wedge being between you where you don't know each other heart and soul. But there is no way she is going to share with you while you are acting the way you have been. 

I suggest making it clear to her that you need total honesty. And if she won't give it, then I suggest talking with her about what a separation would look like. She is afraid if she tells you, you will leave. So by not telling you, she has a chance that you'll stay.

You need to let her know that the only chance she has at keeping you is if you can know and love all of her. I can the love you have in your posts. So love her.....all of her. She may have been broken and you fixed her.....it's a beautiful story.....soooo soooo great. Don't ruin it with your judgement. It's you who took this women and made her pure again and The Lord will hold you in very high regard for it. 

So if she sees that she is about to lose you because of this lie she wants to keep between you, then she will likely come around but only......and i stress only if she is totally and completely comfortable with the idea that you will love her no matter what so long as she can be honest with you. 

She has lied and that is a huge betrayal and her unwillingness to come clean (though I can't blame her as no one would with the way you have been handling it) has made it far worse. 

Are you a Christian , is this why the whole purity thing was and is so important to you? If yes, then remember that Jesus loves us so deeply and so fully that he would forgive and purely love us despite our horrible past choices. You have taken a women formerly broken and with your love and grace, you have helped to make her pure again. She loves this. She worries that you will not look at her the same if you knew the real her. So I challenge you to this.....lover her....like Jesus loves her, and like he loves you.


----------



## Mr The Other

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am 39 now and feel so helpless in my current marriage as my wife's sexual past is destroying my present but I am trying everything in my power to preserve our future together. I was 19 when I met my met my wife who was 20 at the time. She was definitely a "10" without a doubt. We started dating and I was upfront with her and within a few months into the relationship let her know that I am a virgin & would like the same in my partner. She started crying and told me a story of how she was a virgin and was raped a few months before we met. I hugged her and told her that it wasn't her fault and we continued to build our relationship. Fast forward to Jan. 2014 and we have been happily married for 20 years now with 4 beautiful kids. Life is going perfectly but out of nowhere, someone who knew my wife before we were together provides me with shocking information about her past. At first I don't believe it but then I decide that I need to confront her and she breaks down and tells me that what I was told is all true. My wife was NOT raped but rather to put it lightly, "VERY sexually experienced" before she met me. I was heart broken. Everything we had built was on a lie. It's so hard for me to type this because my hands are shaking. I can't even put into details some of the things that she was doing in the past before me. Since I found the truth out, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't stop crying but I keep trying because I am so deep in love with her. She has been the perfect wife & mother for the past 20 years but thoughts of her sexual escapades are haunting me to where I can't keep my focus on anything. I keep imagining her naked with someone else doing all kinds of sexual things in different positions. Another guy pleasuring her, her pleasuring him, oral sex, different places without protection. It disgusts me to find out what she had done before me. It makes me sick to my stomach. If I push myself to eat something then I feel as if I want to throw up. I love her but can't get over this lie. I miss our sex life but can't bring myself to that point. It's almost as if I have to push myself to bring myself to make love to her and it's a constant battle for me to fight off these images of her with another. She tells me that I am the only one that she has ever loved and that her past was just all physical attraction. I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to F**K people just for the hell of it. I need LOVE for me to have sex with someone. I am not some disgusting animal. I feel like I am slowly dying inside and have constant thoughts of suicide but I have 4 kids that need me. I'm trying to be strong and look at all of my wife's positives but that 1 negative (her past) is SO strong that it keeps holding me back. Our sex life was nothing less than perfect but now I can't even look her in the eyes. I feel ashamed and I feel SO dirty. I hug her tightly and tell her that I love her but I feel myself slowly slipping away. I am trying to help her cope but I don't know how to help myself. I am so deep in love with her that I can't even walk away from our loving marriage. I feel as if I am *broken beyond repair*. I am hoping that time will heal this scar someday but I know that there are no guarantees in life. I hope that someone can provide me with some advice. I am willing to listen.


I am sorry you had to find it out like this.

What you have to do is straight forward, but difficult. Forgive without reservation, accept that it happened, accept that it is hard to come to terms with, but she is still deserving of love.

Good luck.


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## tryingtobebetter

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> clipclop2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> People don't understand how a single lie can cast doubt on everything they have ever done and will ever do.
> 
> For the OP, *why not ask her for a lie detector test? * Clear up your big questions and heal. Live the next 20 in peace.[/QUOTE
> 
> A lie detector test sounds like a great idea because I honestly feel that there is A LOT more that I don't know about her. I am going to ask her to do this for me and I'm pretty sure that she will refuse which will make things ever harder for me. :scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds to me like your (very understandable) anger talking here, so I would be cautious about proceeding down this route at the present, because I doubt decisions made in anger will be wise. I have said earlier to try to calm yourself. That is not going to be easy but it will happen with time and it is essential.
> 
> You have had a lot of good advice, in my opinion, as well as some comments which probably have been unhelpful.
> 
> It sounds to me as though your wife, when she was a child, really, was a victim of the society we live in and you did indeed rescue her. Be proud of that.
> 
> We in the West live in what I think are often very foolish societies where people make decisions without considering the long-term consequences, where we allow our young to be subjected to peer pressure to behave in all sorts of foolish ways. The sad thing is we are doing ourselves a lot of harm as societies but we cannot see it, or, if we can, seem unable to do anything about it.
> 
> You could always ask your wife the question -' if you knew then what you know now, would you have waited for me?' If she says 'yes' then I think you will have much of what you need.
> 
> I would not ask for details. The general view is that does not make for increased happiness. Especially after 20 years which - from what you first said - seem to have been golden.
Click to expand...


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## MelodyAnn

I think it's sad on more than one level. Sad because no-one likes to be deceived by a life partner, even if that deception occurred over 20 years ago. I can sympathize. But it is even sadder that you can be so consumed by the past, a life she had before she even knew you existed. If you can forgive her for the lie, then reflect on the following questions that are pertinent to your life together:
1. Has she been sexually faithful in your marriage? Meaning she has not had sex with anyone since being with you?
2. Has deception been a habit or pattern? Meaning does she lie about other things that are important to you?
3. Is there emotional intimacy in the marriage? Meaning does she share her thoughts and feelings with you. Does she open up to you, and lean on you for comfort? Is she honest with you emotionally?

If you can answer no to the first two and yes to the third, then you have a wonderful marriage! It would be a shame to throw it away if you cannot learn to forgive. Forgive the one deception. If deception and dishonesty are not her habitual patterns, do not get stuck on this one lie and allow your entire marriage to pivot upon it. Forgiveness is part of love. While it doesn't justify deception, can you understand that the lie was uttered out of fear - the fear of losing you whom she loved very much, and couldn't bear the thought of living without? Would you have thrown her away years ago if she had told you the truth? Perhaps, and she may have sensed/feared that, and you would have cheated both of you out of many years of a happy and loving marriage and happy life as you describe. Even though you are quite correct in pointing out that it was your choice to make - to stay with her or leave her if she had told you the truth in the beginning, can you appreciate how it seems pretty shallow to throw away someone you are in love with because of relations they had before you came into their life? Is it a religious belief that premarital sex is sinful that makes this so hard for you to get over, or is it something else, like the sense that some individuals have that our spouse is a possession, something that we own? 
Everything that happened sexually before she knew you doesn't count for your relationship! Your relationship began the day it began, and everything was new from that point on. Everything prior to that point is washed away. Why obsess over men who are nothing more but the faintest and most distant of memories for your wife? She doesn't give them a passing thought in her day to day life, and hasn't for twenty years, until you have made it the focus of your marriage now. The thoughts of them are intrusive and frequent throughout your day. This is where I think cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) may help. You can find books on the technique too if you aren't ready to consider the time/cost of counseling. It's worth a try. Re-training your brain may help interrupt the obsessive thought patterns that are making you miserable. It is certainly not healthy for you, and very draining for your marriage. 
Please understand, I can respect religious beliefs that many grow up with that sex before marriage is a sin, but aren't sins forgivable? I suspect this has to do with more than just religious beliefs. For some men, I believe, it pertains to a macho view of women that sees a woman as tainted or impure if someone touched her before you. She was not an object you bought at the market, not a possession you purchased. She is not "used" like a used car. If you absolutely must think of a woman in terms of a possession, although I don't agree with objectifying women at all, then just think of the analogy of a brand new vehicle that was test-driven. It's still brand new. Your wife, although no object, is as fresh as brand new the day you committed to her. Unless she caught some contagious STD from her teen dating days, there is absolutely no lasting mark from sex that occurred before you.
If you love your wife, and she has been honest and faithful to you during your marriage, then you must get over this feeling that she is somehow used, and stop obsessing over the ancient past. If you don't get over it, it will destroy your marriage and you will lose the person you love.


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## F-102

One thing that you have to consider is THE SOURCE OF THE DAMAGING INFO. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's the bigger the mouth, the lower the I.Q. 

This guy is, IMHO, just a troublemaker who likes drama. Perhaps he has an axe to grind, perhaps his own lousy life sucks so much that he just can't stand to see a woman that he still thinks that he has some control over with a good life, husband and family.

Or perhaps there's something more sinister here: he wants your W back in his life, but there's no way he can do that with a man like you in the picture, so he starts trouble. He tells you something that he knows your W would not be proud of, starts doubt in your mind, and hopefully, knowing that your a decent man, you will leave her. Then he can move back in on her, because she is so devastated that she lost you and her family, then he is the "old chum" that she can once again rely on. And of course, he'll try to wear her down (if he hasn't already) with lines like "Once a wh*re, always a wh*re, right" and "You'll never do better than me... you had a good man, but you f*cked that one up, just like everyone said you would!"

It's like the old story of the woman with a "past" (drugs, prostitution, illegal activities) who successfully goes straight and leaves all of that behind, only to have one of her old partners in crime catch up with her some years later. He then blackmails her: "Alright, sweetie...you think that you could get away from who you REALLY are so easy? This is what's gonna happen: you're gonna take this package over to this house, and if you go to the police or tell anyone, well...you wouldn't want your H and kids, his family or all of your new friends and coworkers, finding out about your past, right? Face it, sweetie: I'm back in your life, and you ain't getting away from me this time."

I know, I'm a little overly imaginative on some things, but I'm suspecting that this guy who told you the info fancies himself a pimp, thug, badass, whatever, and is trying to start a small rockslide that will end up in the avalanche of divorce.

A good man who made some mistakes and is trying to do the right thing, clear his conscience or even clear his name?

I don't think so.

A troublemaker who thinks (or wishes) that he still has some sort of Svengali-like hold on women, and is trying to get back with your W?

I THINK SO!


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## larry.gray

I suspect the truth may lie somewhere in the middle. This guy sounds like a predator, one who seeks out naive young women, ones he can manipulate into sex traffic. He may not have 'raped' her in the classic sense where he used violent force or pointed a gun at her to get her to do it, but he most likely manipulated her.

I think the good sign is that your wife has managed to move past what has happened on her own. Many women are troubled for life by this kind of thing happening to them. Her 'therapy' appears to be devoting herself to you and the kids, trying to be a good wife and good mother.


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## Broken.Beyond.Repair

Emptyshelldad said:


> I myself always need total honesty. And if she didn't feel comfortable sharing this with you, then it's a major problem for me.
> 
> But your severe judgement is not going to make her want to open up to you bud. I think she is is saying that if you knew all she did, you would leave her. This is not love. If you truly love her, then you want her to be open and honest with you as to avoid a wedge being between you where you don't know each other heart and soul. But there is no way she is going to share with you while you are acting the way you have been.
> 
> I suggest making it clear to her that you need total honesty. And if she won't give it, then I suggest talking with her about what a separation would look like. She is afraid if she tells you, you will leave. So by not telling you, she has a chance that you'll stay.
> 
> You need to let her know that the only chance she has at keeping you is if you can know and love all of her. I can the love you have in your posts. So love her.....all of her. She may have been broken and you fixed her.....it's a beautiful story.....soooo soooo great. Don't ruin it with your judgement. It's you who took this women and made her pure again and The Lord will hold you in very high regard for it.
> 
> So if she sees that she is about to lose you because of this lie she wants to keep between you, then she will likely come around but only......and i stress only if she is totally and completely comfortable with the idea that you will love her no matter what so long as she can be honest with you.
> 
> She has lied and that is a huge betrayal and her unwillingness to come clean (though I can't blame her as no one would with the way you have been handling it) has made it far worse.
> 
> *Are you a Christian , is this why the whole purity thing was and is so important to you? * If yes, then remember that Jesus loves us so deeply and so fully that he would forgive and purely love us despite our horrible past choices. You have taken a women formerly broken and with your love and grace, you have helped to make her pure again. She loves this. She worries that you will not look at her the same if you knew the real her. So I challenge you to this.....lover her....like Jesus loves her, and like he loves you.


Very good advice thank-you. Yes, I am Christian and she is Muslim.


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## F-102

larry.gray said:


> I suspect the truth may lie somewhere in the middle. This guy sounds like a predator, one who seeks out naive young women, ones he can manipulate into sex traffic. He may not have 'raped' her in the classic sense where he used violent force or pointed a gun at her to get her to do it, but he most likely manipulated her.
> 
> I think the good sign is that your wife has managed to move past what has happened on her own. Many women are troubled for life by this kind of thing happening to them. Her 'therapy' appears to be devoting herself to you and the kids, trying to be a good wife and good mother.


Agreed, lg. What happens if this guy is indeed trying to get back with her, and starts trying to blackmail her? He could start making up all sorts of sordid lies, because bbr now has doubt in his mind (coupled with his W alluding to the fact that there is more, and that he'd leave her if he knew), and he is liable to believe the worst.


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## Broken.Beyond.Repair

F-102 said:


> One thing that you have to consider is THE SOURCE OF THE DAMAGING INFO. If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's the bigger the mouth, the lower the I.Q.
> 
> This guy is, IMHO, just a troublemaker who likes drama. Perhaps he has an axe to grind, perhaps his own lousy life sucks so much that he just can't stand to see a woman that he still thinks that he has some control over with a good life, husband and family.
> 
> Or perhaps there's something more sinister here: he wants your W back in his life, but there's no way he can do that with a man like you in the picture, so he starts trouble. He tells you something that he knows your W would not be proud of, starts doubt in your mind, and hopefully, knowing that your a decent man, you will leave her. Then he can move back in on her, because she is so devastated that she lost you and her family, then he is the "old chum" that she can once again rely on. And of course, he'll try to wear her down (if he hasn't already) with lines like "Once a wh*re, always a wh*re, right" and "You'll never do better than me... you had a good man, but you f*cked that one up, just like everyone said you would!"
> 
> It's like the old story of the woman with a "past" (drugs, prostitution, illegal activities) who successfully goes straight and leaves all of that behind, only to have one of her old partners in crime catch up with her some years later. He then blackmails her: "Alright, sweetie...you think that you could get away from who you REALLY are so easy? This is what's gonna happen: you're gonna take this package over to this house, and if you go to the police or tell anyone, well...you wouldn't want your H and kids, his family or all of your new friends and coworkers, finding out about your past, right? Face it, sweetie: I'm back in your life, and you ain't getting away from me this time."
> 
> I know, I'm a little overly imaginative on some things, but I'm suspecting that this guy who told you the info fancies himself a pimp, thug, badass, whatever, and is trying to start a small rockslide that will end up in the avalanche of divorce.
> 
> A good man who made some mistakes and is trying to do the right thing, clear his conscience or even clear his name?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> A troublemaker who thinks (or wishes) that he still has some sort of Svengali-like hold on women, and is trying to get back with your W?
> 
> I THINK SO!


:iagree:


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## Blonde

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Her ex mentioned their involvement in a* "gang bang"* with her as the only female but I haven't had the guts to ask her about this. Another issue was being *"pimped out"* which is another point which is hard for me to swallow.


So (if this is a real story ) she was a teenage prostitute...

which means she was sexually abused and exploited. Being gang banged IS rape IMO. 

TBH I think you should feel sorry for your wife and angry about what was done to her rather than "jealous".

Are any of your children girls? How would you feel about* YOUR teenage daughter being gang raped and pimped out by a DOM?*


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## Nucking Futs

I think you should insist on the polygraph, but assure her that you will only be asking about events while you were married. You need to know that she was faithful during your engagement and marriage, and you need to know if she has had any interaction after the wedding with anyone she slept with. 

I think the theory that she was exploited is probably right and you should drop the inquiries about before she accepted your proposal. None of what she did before that is part of your marriage, only what she did after. She needs to understand that your trust in her has been badly damaged but passing a polygraph showing that she's been faithful to you will go a long way towards repairing that faith.

That lie would be a big deal for me. I would not trust her at all until she's proven to me that she hasn't continued to lie to me since.


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## 2ntnuf

Well, she was a prostitute, while you were datiing her? She somehow got you to believe she was a virgin for a while, and then told you she was raped(which technically was the truth), then her former pimp and rapist, told you she was his *****, probably laughing and/or at least telling you what a fool you are and him and plenty of other men were where you are. He raised concerns that she was truthful in the rest of her marriage and you might even be considering whether or not the money she used to purchase something for you or the children was ill-gotten gains? I would guess that's going through your head.

You two need counseling really badly. You don't need this place for help unless it's to vent. Get off the internet and get into counseling.


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## Blonde

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Very good advice thank-you. Yes, I am Christian and she is Muslim.


Another plot twist 

Maybe she was a prostitute for a terrorist sleeper cell? :scratchhead:


Muslim cleric who advised 9/11 hijackers liked hookers and pizza, new documents show - NY Daily News


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## manticore

he never said she was a prostitute, for what we know, she maybe slept with guys that could bought her nice things and pay her bills (no different from what many young attractive women do) and then ExBf Exaggerated the way things happened.


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## 2ntnuf

This thread is so convoluted, if BBR and his story are real, which I greatly doubt, he really needs to delete it and start a new one with ALL of the truth presented. He can't get much in the way of help at this point. I don't think he cares, though. It's been a fun experiment.


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## Blonde

Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Her ex mentioned their involvement in a "gang bang" with her as the only female but I haven't had the guts to ask her about this. Another issue was being "pimped out" which is another point which is hard for me to swallow.


=prostitute

and this was BEFORE they met each other when she was age 20 

--> teenage prostitute


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## F-102

So, she was a good girl, then a liar, then she was "pimped out", and now she's a Muslim, married to a hard-line Christian?

I'm sorry, bbr... but your story is getting to be a little too much to digest.


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## manticore

the reason people say is a troll thread is because it got a lot of attention in Little time but the situation from my point of view is not that uncommon, I know of real cases very similar to op's case (maybe not with the sexual promiscuity factor of the wife, but the same in regards of women with multiple partners claiming being virgins).

I have a friend who saw himself twice in this situation but with GFs, first time caught him of guard (when he also found about an xbf of his GF), second time (other GF) he already knew she was no virgin although she keep claiminmg she was (BTW she cheated on him). If I post his story, people will think is a troll thread, the second gf even con him 5k


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## manticore

blonde, I saw the "pimped out" part, if you didn't notice it, that information was released while I was communicating with him and I was the first to comment about it.

but we are working here with the information of a person with dubious intentions while sharing the past of op's wife (I mean the XBF), pimped out maybe is even a exageration of the description wrote by the OP in his state of mind, if you have doubts of the veracity of the thread you are more than welcome to report it and you can go to the troll thread and comment about it, but if you are going to just come a ridiculize the situation that the OP is going through please reflect in your behaviour for the posibility of him being a real person.


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## 2ntnuf

manticore, 

Whether it is a false thread or not, it's a great learning experience for posters and members trying to help. It teaches us all a lesson. I do know it could be true. In the end, BBR's trickle truth has messed things up for him and his wife more than if he would have just presented all the facts in the beginning. It's a lesson to be learned. We need to ask more questions and limit input until the whole truth comes out. That may take time and as long as no one invests any of themselves in the OP's words, we can all be objective in our responses. 

In the end, we did learn quite a bit about the feelings of men and women on sex before marriage, which was probably what this was about. Someone was just trying to get folks to think about the value of a woman who has a lot of varied experience and it got out of hand because of questions asked. They needed to be asked way back in the beginning, but the subject always elicits strong emotional reactions and posts. 

Moral of the story? Make sure you know who you are marrying. Make sure you know what you will or can tolerate. Make sure you stand firm within your boundaries. Make sure you ask the OP plenty of questions. Make sure to keep perspective when responding to a thread. Make sure you know anyone can be duped. Walk away when you think it's a non-productive thread. Remember, the OP got him/herself into the marriage and it really isn't our problem to get them out. Don't be a doormat to an OP.


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## Blonde

manticore said:


> if you are going to just come a ridiculize the situation that the OP is going through please reflect in your behaviour for the posibility of him being a real person.


If you look back at my posts I have asked questions and posted advice based on the scenario.

Right up front OP stated their ages on meeting as age 19 and 20. I have children in those age ranges and, TBH, they not very mature. To hold teenage mistakes against someone 20 years later...:slap:

And as the story builds, turns out she was victimized by a DOM.

One more observation for OP which I withheld previously but I'm going to put it out there. This:



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> She told me that she would do anything to make me happy again *and my reply to her was, "I want to F**K another woman so I can feel what another P***Y feels like"*


is emotionally abusive IMO.

when you knew she was pimped and gang raped?

If she was here, I'd tell her to head for the door, get IC, and get her man picker fixed.


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## manticore

Blonde said:


> And as the story builds, turns out she was victimized by a DOM.


*Again*, you are assuming that what other users said is the true, the OP never said she was victimized by her EXBF, the other users are the ones suggesting or inferring that the EXBF manipulated her and made her a forced Wh*re, but OP never said that. 


he even stated before:



Broken.Beyond.Repair said:


> Well I won't call him a "rapist" because he wasn't one.


so, for he until this moment all her actions were consented, is other users who are depicting her as a victim and OP may come to see it like that, but he had never said that.

and that is my problem with your statements, you are more focused in what other users wrote that seeing what the OP is communicating


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## Blonde

manticore said:


> *Again*
> 
> 
> so, for he until this moment all her actions were consented, is other users who are depicting her as a victim and OP may come to see it like that, but he had never said that.
> 
> and that is my problem with your statements, you are more focused in what other users wrote that seeing what the OP is communicating


Not at all. Reread my posts.

I was focused on the TEN, count em TEN year difference in age between the girl and the grown man who was "pimping" her out and subjecting her to "gang" sex (by OP's account).

This happened to this girl when she was <20yo and maybe a MINOR. OP did not answer my question @ her age. (But a girl does not magically transform into an evil slvt when she turns 18.)

Based on her poor boundaries with BBR by his own account (tolerating emotional abuse, and reverting to prostitute-ish "servicing" him even when he is hostile), and "the rest of the story" @ gang rape and being pimped out, I surmise that our heroine is a CSA victim. 

CSA victims can have pleasure from and blame themselves for their abuse so she would be confused @ it being "rape".


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