# Old evidence of infidelities



## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

So I decided to rearrange some dresser drawers. At the bottom of the drawer I start with, I find a price tag that was removed from a book about the kama sutra that has never been involved in my marital life.

My wife had an affair last year, which ended far too slowly between November and April. We've been in MC since April.

I am unbelievably upset by this. For one, because I'm pretty sure it was involved in my wife's extramarital love life and two, because I would have loved to have shared that learning experience with my wife.

She's at work right now and will be home in approximately 20 minutes. I think I will say, "I stumbled across something that we need to talk about."

Opinions would be appreciated.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> So I decided to rearrange some dresser drawers. At the bottom of the drawer I start with, I find a price tag that was removed from a book about the kama sutra that has never been involved in my marital life.
> 
> My wife had an affair last year, which ended far too slowly between November and April. We've been in MC since April.
> 
> ...


What is the date on the price tag or what I assume is a receipt? 

I am not sure what you mean by a slow ending affair? Did she give the OM a NC letter? If not she needed to do that, and it would have been done. Quick, no delay. If not, you should suspect that she is still in contact with the OM. 

If you are going to have honesty and start to trust her, you need to confront her on more than just this receipt. How about access to her phone, computer, etc passwords. If the A is truly over, she should have no problem surrendering access. 

It is not you but her that needs to go the extra mile to gain trust and meet you more than half way to come to any R, if any is possible. She broke your trust and not the other way around.

Do you have any family and trusted friends involved? If not, get someone involved who can help. Just avoid anyone who is in for purely voyeuristic purposes. 

As my father once told me, you don't just marry her, you marry her family... I have found this to be true. If she cheats, she cheats on the family too, thus they need to be involved.

I wish you the best.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Im not sure what you'll be questioning her about, why she didn't use position's from kama sutra to you or why she used it for others?

Are you sure she's not in an affair currently?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

abuginarug said:


> I am unbelievably upset by this. For one, because I'm pretty sure it was involved in my wife's extramarital love life and two, because I would have loved to have shared that learning experience with my wife.


And that is exactly what you tell her.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

How'd that conversation go? I would have handled it a little differently (more alpha) than just putting it out there. What was her response?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Thats wierd you would be so worried about talking to your wife about the tag you found. I mean its not like the affair is a secret any more.

It sucks that its a trigger and its even worse that it would still be going on. It sound like the tag has been there for a while so I'll figure its old news.

With that said, it odd that you can't talk bout it.

I mean when I found empty packages of chicks underwear deep in the bowls of our walk in closet I told my wife what I found and asked were the panties were, she told me she left them in the hotel room or the guys house..."they were dirty".

Granted this was a year after d-day, but my point is I wasn't going to keep this to my self no matter how painful it was for us to talk about.

Sure I wanted to see my wife in those panties and it was a trigger just like it was humiliating for her to answer the question. Lesson learned here is what my wife did not so long ago still has consequences today.

As painful as it is you have to face this evil head on and at all times.

A few days later she went to the panty store and bought a nice pear for me to take off.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Went well. She was concerned about the right things, and didn't avoid blame. She explained where it came from and I believe her. It had nothing to do with him. DawnD, I did exactly as you suggested - told her the reasons it was upsetting to me.

Machiavelli, what is "more alpha" than calmly discussing something that is upsetting?

She is not currently engaged in an affair. I have access to everything of hers. I don't blindly trust her.

It made me nervous because we are not in reconciliation; we are not having sex. (Our counselor has us in a holding pattern while we are both doing IC work) Talking about sex in our relationship is difficult. It's something we haven't been good at since we were much younger. From my perspective, we need practice discussing sex - constructive practice, not destructive practice.

I am also still learning to trust myself with my reactions. I tend to escalate to rage quickly when I'm upset.

Moral of the story - confront.


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## Jibril (May 23, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> How'd that conversation go? I would have handled it a little differently (more alpha) than just putting it out there. What was her response?


Not to derail the topic, but I'm kinda curious - how _would_ you have handled it?


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Jibril said:


> Not to derail the topic, but I'm kinda curious - how _would_ you have handled it?


I don't think that question derails at all! It's right on target.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Anger management did wonders for me. I stop fighting and no loger push my wife around.

Can I say I think your MC is nuts, but I'm just the guy typing on this keyboard.

I mean sex is the glue and so is intamcy, that holding pattern seems like it counter productive. 

Since the end of the affair have you guys had any HB (hystirical bounding)?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Jibril said:


> Not to derail the topic, but I'm kinda curious - how _would_ you have handled it?


Since there is no sex, no HB, then my "alpha" idea won't work. I was thinking it would be nice to send a message by arranging her into as many K-S positions as possible in the shortest amount of time and see if that rung any bells on her part.

Bug, do you want reconciliation?


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

I have spent the last 2 or 3 years disengaged from my marriage and my relationship with my wife. The reason I'm in MC is because I don't know if I want reconciliation. I see many benefits both ways and I'm too logical to make a decision; I'm too emotional to make a decision. I know a lot more about what I want now than I did when I asked her to marry me, but I feel like don't know her well enough to know if she is what I want. I know she has made me happy in the past. I'm really picky, and that's an understatement.

Our counselor suggested separation, my wife and I countered that a separation would inevitably lead to divorce. I would lose interest in her if I made myself avoid her - my attention span is too short. I wouldn't act like a married man if I were to separate from her; what is the point in purposely forcing yourself to be lonely when it is not what you want?

The reason divorce is not ideal is our children. They are beautiful, amazing, sensitive, and innocent.

Hysterical bonding...I had to read about it. I don't think we have this in any way. We are, however, more intimate now than we have ever been, but there is no sex and no mouth kissing. I have already made it clear to her and our MC that a nonphysical relationship will not satisfy me. The hold ends in 2 months, at which point I will make a decision about our marriage.

We're both trying to figure out what we want. I know more about me now than I ever have, but I am very glad for the 2 more months.

If anyone else has opinions on how to deal with old evidence, please chime in.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I just find it so wierd that the kids are growing up watching mom and dad have no effection for each other. No disrespect here.

I mean I grow up and never saw my folks kiss and hug each other and it really screwed up my own marriage. Having been accused by both the MC and my own wife that I don't show love.

I just wish I had a better examble of a healthy relationship when I was growing up. 

It wouldn't suprise me when your kids get to an age were they start dating and move to a serious relationship that the SO will wonder why their not effectionate.

I guess I would have rather grown up in a broken happy home rather then have two parents give me a crappy examble of a marriage.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think you should burn the book or toss it in the garbage since it isn't for use in your marriage.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

@The guy: my wife and I are very affectionate. We snuggle on the couch and in bed, we do long hugs at home and in public, we hold hands, I massage her, and we do all of this in front of our children. We just are not sexual.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> *The guy, my wife and I are very affectionate.We snuggle on the couch and in bed, we do long hugs at home and in public, we hold hands,* I massage her, and we do all of this in front of our children. We just are not sexual.


This just stumped me for a second before I remembered *the_guy*


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

cozy threesome??????? stumped me too for a couple of seconds


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Based on your old thread, you should separate or divorce if things haven't progressed by much. You cannot force her to reconcile. If she cannot do it on her own, there is a danger of it happening again. You cannot be a guard for the rest of your life. What does she bring to your marriage?

Tell us a bit about the OM. Where is he now?


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

keko said:


> Im not sure what you'll be questioning her about, why she didn't use position's from kama sutra to you or why she used it for others?
> 
> Are you sure she's not in an affair currently?


:iagree:

Gahhh!


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> The guy, my wife and I are very affectionate. We snuggle on the couch and in bed, we do long hugs at home and in public, we hold hands, I massage her, and we do all of this in front of our children. *We just are not sexual.*





abuginarug said:


> *I have spent the last 2 or 3 years disengaged from my marriage and my relationship with my wife.* The reason I'm in MC is because I don't know if I want reconciliation. I see many benefits both ways and I'm too logical to make a decision; I'm too emotional to make a decision. I know a lot more about what I want now than I did when I asked her to marry me, but* I feel like don't know her well enough to know if she is what I want.* I know she has made me happy in the past. I'm really picky, and that's an understatement.
> 
> Our counselor suggested separation, my wife and I countered that a separation would inevitably lead to divorce.* I would lose interest in her if I made myself avoid her* - my attention span is too short. I wouldn't act like a married man if I were to separate from her; what is the point in purposely forcing yourself to be lonely when it is not what you want?
> 
> ...



You have detached. You can touch her, massage her, hold her. But, you dont get sexually excited. The desire is gone.

She has gone out of the marriage for sex. You know she's capable of doing so. She has proven it to you already.

Do you know if she is having sex outside the marriage now? Do you care?

You have friend-zoned her in a way. That sexual need for her is gone. Eventually you'll find that your sexual desire is still there except it's not for her. You'll understand what I mean when it happens to you (if it hasnt already).

She killed the marriage. The fault is 100% hers when she took up a lover.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

@Aug: you're misunderstanding me. I am incredibly attracted to my wife! I want sex with my wife. I want romantic sex, playful sex, hot sex,spontaneous sex, explorative sex, tender sex. I love being sexual, and I'm very focused and creative. My desire and stamina are both very, very high.

Our lack of sex is at her insistence. She maintains that she does not enjoy being sexual, and that it one of the largest reasons why I'm unsure of our marriage. Yes, she was (apparently) happy to try to sexually satisfy two men for months, but now is claiming no interest - I have told her I think that is hypocritical. 

I honestly believe she is LD, and views sex as an act of bonding or duty; she feels that she's already bonded to me or is doing me a large enough favor by not contacting the OM.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

You're in false R. She's probably still weaning off the affair drug but she has entitlementitis, a congenital disease but its so easy to cure. You're not begging for all the intimacy, are you?


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Based on your old thread, you should separate or divorce if things haven't progressed by much. You cannot force her to reconcile. If she cannot do it on her own, there is a danger of it happening again. You cannot be a guard for the rest of your life. What does she bring to your marriage?
> 
> Tell us a bit about the OM. Where is he now?


He's still volunteering at her place of employment. It's a nonprofit, and he's on a committee. Her therapist thinks it's fine. I don't, but I don't know everything her therapist knows. I've already made it clear to her, her family, and OM that it will become a very public issue if there is any contact not related to work. No phone, Facebook, email for any reason.

As to what she brings to the marriage...I am struggling with that right now. She does the finances and she makes the majority of our household income. We co-parent very effectively. She brings music to the family.

I just don't know what a real marriage is like. I don't think I've ever seen one. 

She is my best friend. We're closer emotionally and spiritually now than we have ever been. Separation seems counterproductive, but maybe we'll have to revisit it at our next MC session.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

He's not in reconciliation at all. He admits this. I'm trying to understand what the hell kind of MC puts a sex life on hold. Myself, I'd force a decision immediately. You either want to be in a FULL marriage with me or you don't. No sex, I'm gone.

So while your sex life is on hold, do you get to have your needs met elsewhere? She sounds like a cake eater to me. And the MC is an enabler.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> @Aug: you're misunderstanding me. I am incredibly attracted to my wife! I want sex with my wife. I want romantic sex, playful sex, hot sex,spontaneous sex, explorative sex, tender sex. I love being sexual, and I'm very focused and creative. My desire and stamina are both very, very high.
> 
> Our lack of sex is at her insistence. She maintains that she does not enjoy being sexual, and that it one of the largest reasons why I'm unsure of our marriage. Yes, she was (apparently) happy to try to sexually satisfy two men for months, but now is claiming no interest - I have told her I think that is hypocritical.
> 
> I honestly believe she is LD, and views sex as an act of bonding or duty; she feels that she's already bonded to me or is doing me a large enough favor by not contacting the OM.



Oh sigh. I completely misread what you wrote. I suppose I am not good at reading your undercurrent.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> He's not in reconciliation at all. He admits this. I'm trying to understand what the hell kind of MC puts a sex life on hold. Myself, I'd force a decision immediately. You either want to be in a FULL marriage with me or you don't. No sex, I'm gone.
> 
> So while your sex life is on hold, do you get to have your needs met elsewhere? She sounds like a cake eater to me. And the MC is an enabler.


Forcing anything would mean a bitter marriage or a divorce. I'm hoping for emotional development, personal growth, and a happy marriage.

I agree that the counselor is enabling. I don't think sex is our MC's specialty.

And no, my desires are not being met. A significant part of my desire is emotionally based. I'm not interested in empty orgasm or pleasure. I need the emotional part, too.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> Our lack of sex is at her insistence. She maintains that she does not enjoy being sexual, and that it one of the largest reasons why I'm unsure of our marriage. Yes, she was (apparently) happy to try to sexually satisfy two men for months, but now is claiming no interest - I have told her I think that is hypocritical.
> 
> I honestly believe she is LD, and views sex as an act of bonding or duty; she feels that she's already bonded to me or is doing me a large enough favor by not contacting the OM.


This could be just a shot in the dark, but was your wife sexually abused as a child? It just sounds familiar, she is wanting to be "wanted" without the sex...


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

To an outsider, it would seem that your wife doesn't feel any sexual attraction towards you and only views you as her friend and the father of her children. Be honest for a minute, if the children were not a factor, what would be your decision?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Or she is staying loyal to the OM by not having sex.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> You're in false R. She's probably still weaning off the affair drug but she has entitlementitis, a congenital disease but its so easy to cure. You're not begging for all the intimacy, are you?


I don't beg, pout, or plea, but I have told her that I'm a very sexual person and that the physical part of a marriage relationship is very important to me. 

When we are close, and she feels my erection I am not apologetic, I just don't try to initiate. It's something that I'm still trying to get used to.

I would pout about sex before in our marriage. She still brings that up. When she does I wink and say, "It's like I'm a new guy, huh?"


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

morituri said:


> To an outsider, it would seem that your wife doesn't feel any sexual attraction towards you and only views you as her friend and the father of her children. Be honest for a minute, if the children were not a factor, what would be your decision?


Honestly, I need sex to be happy in a marriage. I honestly hope for a happy marriage with my wife, and I will honestly file for divorce if she continues to treat me like a live-in friend, roommate, and father of her children.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Numb in Ohio said:


> This could be just a shot in the dark, but was your wife sexually abused as a child? It just sounds familiar, she is wanting to be "wanted" without the sex...


I've wondered this, our counselors have wondered this, she insists she was not abused as a child.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Or she is staying loyal to the OM by not having sex.


Since I know they promised each other they wouldn't have sex with anyone else ever again after I found put about the affair, I'm pretty sure you're at least partially right. But then she had sex with me less than 2 weeks after making the promise. I found out about the promise when she started crying after...

I have not been a great husband for most of marriage. I am showing her that I am loving and patient and devoted and honest at my core. If she isn't worth it, I will leave.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> Since I know they promised each other they wouldn't have sex with anyone else ever again after I found put about the affair, I'm pretty sure you're at least partially right.


Wut?


The more I read, the more it seems that you are delaying the inevitable.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> Since I know they promised each other they wouldn't have sex with anyone else ever again after I found put about the affair, I'm pretty sure you're at least partially right.


:wtf:

Showing loyalty to an OM would be an immediate deal breaker for me. It should be for you too. 



abuginarug said:


> I have not been a great husband for most of marriage. I am showing her that I am loving and patient and devoted and honest at my core. If she isn't worth it, I will leave.


I'm kind of sick of hearing this excuse. Who the hell is a perfect husband here? Absolutely no one. Get this: even if you were the perfect husband, she still would have cheated on you because she needs validation from other men.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Wut?
> 
> 
> The more I read, the more it seems that you are delaying the inevitable.


The only thing that is inevitable in my life is death. I know I would regret divorcing her before trying everything I could to save our marriage. 

In case you haven't realized this, I'm very pro-marriage. Life is never perfect, neither is love. Marriage, to me, should help support both.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> :wtf:
> 
> Showing loyalty to an OM would be an immediate deal breaker for me. It should be for you too.
> 
> ...


For better or for worse, I have more patience than you. 

She wouldn't have cheated on me if I had acted like her husband. She would not have had the opportunity.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> The only thing that is inevitable in my life is death. I know I would regret divorcing her before trying everything I could to save our marriage.
> 
> In case you haven't realized this, I'm very pro-marriage. Life is never perfect, neither is love. Marriage, to me, should help support both.


Not attacking you but your comment immediately reminded me of brain dead person kept artificially alive for several years by relatives through misplaced sense of responsibility.

Can you tell a bit more about the no sex pact ? I don't understand!!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> For better or for worse, I have more patience than you.
> 
> She wouldn't have cheated on me if I had acted like her husband. She would not have had the opportunity.


How old are you ? Why is divorce so forbidden in your mind ? Religious or is it something to do with your childhood?


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Can you tell a bit more about the no sex pact ? I don't understand!!


I don't press her for sex or try to initiate. I don't ask for sex, but I wouldn't say no if she expressed interest.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> For better or for worse, I have more patience than you.
> 
> She wouldn't have cheated on me if I had acted like her husband. She would not have had the opportunity.


None of us are really making any money by giving you good advice you know. If you hang around this forum for a few months you'll know that there are thousands of others and there will be thousands of others that will come about asking for advice and then not take the advice being given because they know better. You'll see the same ones coming back in a few months, their situations worse.

The veterans here speak from experience, its sad that people who ask for advice seldom take it. You fail to understand the cardinal rule for a BS, her cheating is not your fault in any way shape or form. If a cheater really wanted to cheat, they'd create the opportunities. 

Maybe you should look at your thread from a neutral perspective. You'll realize how bad your position is for yourself


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> I don't press her for sex or try to initiate. I don't ask for sex, but I wouldn't say no if she expressed interest.


No I meant about this.



> Since I know they promised each other they wouldn't have sex with anyone else ever again after I found put about the affair,


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> None of us are really making any money by giving you good advice you know. If you hang around this forum for a few months you'll know that there are thousands of others and there will be thousands of others that will come about asking for advice and then not take the advice being given because they know better. You'll see the same ones coming back in a few months, their situations worse.
> 
> The veterans here speak from experience, its sad that people who ask for advice seldom take it. You fail to understand the cardinal rule for a BS, her cheating is not your fault in any way shape or form. If a cheater really wanted to cheat, they'd create the opportunities.
> 
> Maybe you should look at your thread from a neutral perspective. You'll realize how bad your position is for yourself


If not anything, he might think his situation is unique. OP, just hang around and read the posts if nothing. Countless here have problems similar to yours. Only you know what is right for you, maybe not right now but eventually you will reach there(staying or divorce). Good luck!!


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> How old are you ? Why is divorce so forbidden in your mind ? Religious or is it something to do with your childhood?


I'm 30. It has everything to do with faith, not so much to do with religion. My dad divorced once before he married my mom. 

I see marriage as something that shouldn't be dissolved unless there is abuse involved. I'm also a hopeless romantic. I've only had sex with my wife, I'm very proud of that considering I have been asked by many other women (before marriage). Divorce would hurt that pride, and yes I'm starting to deal with the reality that I will likely have to swallow that pride.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

I have a feeling your pride is going to be hurt in other ways before it takes the course of Divorce which would further hurt your pride.

But I wish you luck, who knows what tomorrow holds.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

ReturnOfTheKitty said:


> Maybe you should look at your thread from a neutral perspective. You'll realize how bad your position is for yourself


I'll try. I have a hard time being objective with this.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> *I'm 30. It has everything to do with faith, not so much to do with religion. *My dad divorced once before he married my mom.
> 
> *I see marriage as something that shouldn't be dissolved unless there is abuse involved.* I'm also a hopeless romantic. I've only had sex with my wife, I'm very proud of that considering I have been asked by many other women (before marriage). Divorce would hurt that pride, and yes I'm starting to deal with the reality that I will likely have to swallow that pride.


By faith I assume you are referring to the idea that you are a bible believing Christian and do not put any thought into the organized religions.

There are two things you need to keep in mind if my above statement is correct. 1) St. Paul did write about marriage and that infidelity is grounds for divorce. 2) You may or may not believe in the concept of the 7 deadly sins, but pride is most assuredly one of them - in fact it's the deadliest of them all. As a bible believing Christian (if that is what you are), don't let your pride get in the way of living in a faithless marriage. Being prideful to this extent will only delay a very hard fall that I think you will eventually experience if you don't put severe pressure on your wife to get her head out of her ass or to get the hell out of the marriage.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> By faith I assume you are referring to the idea that you are a bible believing Christian and do not put any thought into the organized religions.
> 
> There are two things you need to keep in mind if my above statement is correct. 1) St. Paul did write about marriage and that infidelity is grounds for divorce. 2) You may or may not believe in the concept of the 7 deadly sins, but pride is most assuredly one of them - in fact it's the deadliest of them all. As a bible believing Christian (if that is what you are), don't let your pride get in the way of living in a faithless marriage. Being prideful to this extent will only delay a very hard fall that I think you will eventually experience if you don't put severe pressure on your wife to get her head out of her ass or to get the hell out of the marriage.


My faith is in purpose. I could have been more clear and could be clearer still, but this isn't a religious forum, and the outline of my beliefs would fill a book that would bore the thrill seekers that often lurk in these parts. 

The bible is a curiosity of mine, as is any other influential writing.

I see your point about pride. Thank you for sharing your insight. I'm not good at pride. I was just thinking about it last week, so it's amusing that it came up here...


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> @Aug: you're misunderstanding me. I am incredibly attracted to my wife! I want sex with my wife. I want romantic sex, playful sex, hot sex,spontaneous sex, explorative sex, tender sex. I love being sexual, and I'm very focused and creative. My desire and stamina are both very, very high.
> 
> Our lack of sex is at her insistence. She maintains that she does not enjoy being sexual, and that it one of the largest reasons why I'm unsure of our marriage. Yes, she was (apparently) happy to try to sexually satisfy two men for months, but now is claiming no interest - I have told her I think that is hypocritical.
> 
> I honestly believe she is LD, and views sex as an act of bonding or duty; she feels that she's already bonded to me or is doing me a large enough favor by not contacting the OM.


Hmmmm, not good. it sounds like she is no longer interested in the marriage. It is convenient and secure at the moment, but will not be if the opportunity comes for her to depart once again. Not sure what is said at MC, but it certainly is not bringing the marriage to R.

Sorry to hear all of this, wish you the best.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> I'm 30. It has everything to do with faith, not so much to do with religion. My dad divorced once before he married my mom.
> 
> I see marriage as something that shouldn't be dissolved unless there is abuse involved. I'm also a hopeless romantic. I've only had sex with my wife, I'm very proud of that considering I have been asked by many other women (before marriage). Divorce would hurt that pride, and yes I'm starting to deal with the reality that I will likely have to swallow that pride.



Infidelity is abuse. Just saying


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Infidelity is abuse. Just saying


As is refusing to have sex with you but wanting to stay married to you.


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## ReturnOfTheKitty (Aug 11, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> As is refusing to have sex with you but wanting to stay married to you.


Yep!! I don't remember them mentioning extended periods of celibacy when you take your vows, do they?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

IMHO, your not swallowing your pride by leaving her, your getting it back!


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> He's still volunteering at her place of employment. It's a nonprofit, and he's on a committee. Her therapist thinks it's fine.
> 
> Separation seems counterproductive, but maybe we'll have to revisit it at our next MC session.


Your WW will never defog from her affair feelings because ever time WW sees OM at work she gets an OM fix for her addiction.

This continued contact is keeping the affair alive. WW won't put out because she still needs to be faithful to the OM. Even if they are not being in a PA any more.

You need to get the book Survivng An Affair by Dr Harley.

You need to learn about NC. That means WW and OM can not work together now or ever.

You should consider selling the house and moving everyone far away from the OM.

You also need to learn how to do and effective exposure. This means at work.

Then I have to say your opinion of your counselor is dead on. Fire her. Only thing a separation that the counselor wants to happen is that it will make it easy for WW to restart her affair and end your marriage.

I know that if you follow the steps in Survivng An Affair you will kill the affair , defog your WW, recover your marriage, and get your joy stick wet again.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Agree with every word theroad. There is no such thing as reconciliation as long as there's still contact. No such thing as only business contact.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Therapist is a rug sweeper.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Therapist is nuts


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> @Aug: you're misunderstanding me. I am incredibly attracted to my wife! I want sex with my wife. I want romantic sex, playful sex, hot sex,spontaneous sex, explorative sex, tender sex. I love being sexual, and I'm very focused and creative. My desire and stamina are both very, very high.
> 
> Our lack of sex is at her insistence. She maintains that she does not enjoy being sexual, and that it one of the largest reasons why I'm unsure of our marriage. Yes, she was (apparently) happy to try to sexually satisfy two men for months, but now is claiming no interest - I have told her I think that is hypocritical.
> 
> I honestly believe she is LD, and views sex as an act of bonding or duty; she feels that she's already bonded to me or is doing me a large enough favor by not contacting the OM.


Wow, sorry to say, but she is not LD, she is detached from the marriage. You both need the intimacy right now, it may end up getting worse. It's great that you are affectionate with each other, but seriously, she seems like she's got everything her way.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You need to realize the affair has not fully ended, and she has not returned to the marriage.

Continued contact is a major problem that is contributing to the affair continuing.

She is sexual, she was with two men. she is choosing not to be sexual with her husband, and it very much sounds like its out of loyalty to the OM.

Can you expose the affair to anyone ,especially the OM's Wife/gf?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The therapist is all about validating your wife's feelings and wants - NOT ABOUT SAVING YOUR MARRIAGE.

That's why she's fully endorsing the ongoing contact, because it's what you wife wants.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

theroad said:


> Your WW will never defog from her affair feelings because ever time WW sees OM at work she gets an OM fix for her addiction.
> 
> This continued contact is keeping the affair alive. WW won't put out because she still needs to be faithful to the OM. Even if they are not being in a PA any more.
> 
> ...


here here :iagree:


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I think abuginarug has checked out... apparently did not like the way the discussion was heading. Hope at some point in his life he comes to terms with the salient advice given him.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Still here. I'll check back when I have time to reply. Thanks for the advice thus far.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> For better or for worse, I have more patience than you.
> 
> She wouldn't have cheated on me if I had acted like her husband. She would not have had the opportunity.


Nothing to do with patience. It's about accepting reality, which is what you're having a problem doing. You, like most BSs, live in denial and are justifying the affair.

You claim that you would only divorce due to abuse. FYI, *infidelity is one of the most severe emotional abuse* that person can inflict on another. Experts have said the trauma from infidelity is worse than the death of a family member. That's why it takes 2-5 years to recover from infidelity. Then add the fact that your WW refuses to consummate the marriage because she's sexually loyal to another man, refusing the sexual and emotional intimacy that bonds a man and woman together in marriage.

Your WW did things with OM that she would never do with you, and apparently that upsets you. You will find that this is typical behavior for WWs in an affair. Look at this thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/35927-she-he-did-things-him-her.html

But if you can accept that your WW is faithful and loyal to an OM, then good luck with that.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

And if you want to have an idea of how she feels about having sex with you, then you should read this thread from the dark side.

Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Trying to have sex with H


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Bloody hell, those people have no souls


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> I honestly believe she is LD, and views sex as an act of bonding or duty;


It's not about her being LD. It's about her NOT being sexually/emotionally interested in you. Get it right please.




> she feels that she's already bonded to me or is doing me a large enough favor by not contacting the OM.


REALLY??? holy crap! 
Is this all she has to give? Is this her best for you?
Then I see no reason why you should stay married to her.

She's still staying faithful to the OM, not to you.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

This is a lot. 

On top of all of this, she treated me like **** yesterday. Because she was missing him. She told me she was missing him, and was angry at me for keeping them apart.

MC is going to be hell today.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Can you expose the affair to anyone ,especially the OM's Wife/gf?


He's divorced. His wife cheated on him. He lives alone. I could expose to his very mother or his daughter that's only a couple years younger than my wife...both those options sound petty.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> And if you want to have an idea of how she feels about having sex with you, then you should read this thread from the dark side.
> 
> Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Trying to have sex with H


Woah...that's a rough read, especially in my current mindset.

Oh well. I can say that I tried.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> It's not about her being LD. It's about her NOT being sexually/emotionally interested in you. Get it right please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, I agree with this now...and it's a hard pill to swallow.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

theroad said:


> Your WW will never defog from her affair feelings because ever time WW sees OM at work she gets an OM fix for her addiction.
> 
> This continued contact is keeping the affair alive. WW won't put out because she still needs to be faithful to the OM. Even if they are not being in a PA any more.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I need some time to consider all of this. Right now, I don't think recovering my marriage is in the cards.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> This is a lot.
> 
> On top of all of this, she treated me like **** yesterday. Because *she was missing him*. She told me she was missing him,* and was angry at me for keeping them apart.
> *
> MC is going to be hell today.




I would run away if I were you!
With all the disrespect she's showing she's not worth it!
She should move heaven and earth to make it up to you, instead she's blaming you for breaking her up from the OM!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> This is a lot.
> 
> On top of all of this, she treated me like **** yesterday. Because she was missing him. She told me she was missing him, and was angry at me for keeping them apart.
> 
> MC is going to be hell today.


You need to serve her divorce papers.
You're far too beta which is why she shows you zero respect.

To her the OM is a "real" man and the irony is she knows he'd never take the **** she's easily giving you.

Get a lawyer, have her served, see how she reacts.
Either way it's win/win for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

In the meantime. Read Married Man Sex Life and No More Mister Nice Guy. They can be downloaded. MMSL is not a sex manual but a relationship guide that will explain what has happened and why.

If you really want to keep her this is your best shot. MMsl has MAP plan for you to follow.

Get new counselors or file D.

Why hasn't she filed for divorce?

Since it is a volunteer job, she has to quit now.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> On top of all of this, she treated me like **** yesterday. Because she was missing him. She told me she was missing him, and was angry at me for keeping them apart.


...and your response was? This woman is treating you like a complete doormat. The next time she treats you like ****, walk over, stand tall, and tell her in a calm voice to go F**K herself. Then STFU and walk away. What do you have to lose at this point? 

I'd file on her azz.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> This is a lot.
> 
> On top of all of this, she treated me like **** yesterday. Because she was missing him. She told me she was missing him, and was angry at me for keeping them apart.
> 
> MC is going to be hell today.


WTH is this masochistic sh!t? What does she even think of you to say that to your face? What are you saving here?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

abuginarug said:


> He's divorced. His wife cheated on him. He lives alone. I could expose to his very mother or his daughter that's only a couple years younger than my wife...both those options sound petty.


Not petty. Just do it in a respectful way.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

tacoma said:


> You need to serve her divorce papers.
> You're far too beta which is why she shows you zero respect.
> 
> To her the OM is a "real" man and the irony is she knows he'd never take the **** she's easily giving you.
> ...


Hearing about beta vs alpha gets real old. OM is an absolute beta. Completely spineless. The moment I confronted him, he melted. He's a passive aggressive lying pos, and she knows this.

Alpha vs beta is oversimplifying any human interaction. I could make any "alpha" prick cower socially or physically, unless he's just a legit retard. I'm quick-witted, educated, coordinated, 6' and a solid 210lbs. It's just not a game I play.

Should I play that game, I would lose respect for myself. For real, there are some intense idiots that posture around here like "alpha for life" and play tough guy. Guaranteed, "alpha" guys are cheated on as much as "beta" guys. You just don't see as many alpha guys posting their sob stories here for various psychological and social reasons.

I don't know everything. I've done things wrong. I'm not a doormat at this point.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> WTH is this masochistic sh!t? What does she even think of you to say that to your face? What are you saving here?


She has zero close friends. She had all her eggs in one basket with him. I can't make friends for her, but I can be an ear.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> Hearing about beta vs alpha gets real old. OM is an absolute beta. Completely spineless. The moment I confronted him, he melted. He's a passive aggressive lying pos, and she knows this.
> 
> Alpha vs beta is oversimplifying any human interaction. I could make any "alpha" prick cower socially or physically, unless he's just a legit retard. I'm quick-witted, educated, coordinated, 6' and a solid 210lbs. It's just not a game I play.
> 
> ...


Ok, calm down... I know you think folks around here are picking on you. You have it all wrong, we are not against you. We are on your side, however you have to understand that being on your side does not mean we let you act like a doormat. You say you are not a doormat, fine, but your actions describe someone who is a doormat. 

No one is advocating that you physically confront the OM... But just look at what your have indicated about your WW: And, what I see is someone who obviously does not love you, is not attracted to you, does not respect you, is only married to you at the current moment out of sense of staying "dry" until the opportunity arises for her to get up and go. 

These are simply things you have stated (maybe not directly), in so many words. It really needs to start with your own internal search. You know it, you are angry about it, you don't like other realizing what you already know. 

We are faceless individuals, we don't have to live your life. It is not I or anyone else here who needs to take action, but you. This is not picking on you, this is a matter of you coming to terms with reality. 

I would like to continue to the drumbeat of others: you need to get a lawyer and serve her divorce papers... I would do it very very very soon.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> He's divorced. His wife cheated on him. He lives alone. I could expose to his very mother or his daughter that's only a couple years younger than my wife...both those options sound petty.


Op who cares about petty. This guy is killing/has killed your marriage. Is your marriage a petty thing to you? Do what you have to do. Anything and everything.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

theroad said:


> Your WW will never defog from her affair feelings because ever time WW sees OM at work she gets an OM fix for her addiction.
> 
> This continued contact is keeping the affair alive. WW won't put out because she still needs to be faithful to the OM. Even if they are not being in a PA any more.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't normally quote a response twice in one thread. But this one turns out to be that good.

I am reading the book, and I asked her to read it as well. It's tone is very respectful, but direct with both parties of an affair. We very well may end up separating soon, but I'm still convinced this book should be standard issue along with a marriage certificate. I don't know if it will end up helping my current marriage, but I hope it helps someone else's.

The counselor was much more direct with my wife in our session yesterday. It wasn't a rug sweeping session.

Another thing that I hope is read by someone in time to help them: ask a potential counselor about their experience with affairs. If they waver *at all*, it's not a positive sign. I do believe we are training my current therapist to help heal marriages afflicted with affairs. I enjoy teaching people, but not at my expense.


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

Malaise said:


> Op who cares about petty. This guy is killing/has killed your marriage. Is your marriage a petty thing to you? Do what you have to do. Anything and everything.


My honor is actually more valuable than my marriage. I currently have honor, and believe I would like to maintain it. I do not have a marriage.

OM's wife moved out unannounced while the rest of the family was at teenage daughter's birthday party. The same daughter had actually discovered the affair when her mom had given her an old phone; the phone had explicit pictures of mom with mom's lover. Mom has not contacted her daughter in 4+ years. That poor girl...I can't help but feel really sad for her.

I knew most of the above back story when he and my wife started to become social, and actually consciously decided that it made their relationship a "safe" one. Obviously that shows that I was naive about m/f relationships.

My last contact with OM was to tell him of my intention to inform his daughter of his relationship with my wife if he reaches out to my wife ever again. I'm giving his family a chance to heal from the results of an affair so that he may respect my desire to heal my family.

If he contacts my wife, I won't hold back. I'll send his family the details, including all the disgusting text messages I downloaded off my wife's phone.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Yes, another book that all MC's should read is Not Just Friends, linked in my signaure. If they're unfamiliar with Dr. Glass and Dr. Harley, they basically need remedial training. Unfortunately, many MCs have no more knowledge about infidelity than the average layperson. It would amount to malpractice in any other profession.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think you are misguided about the intentions to expose an affair. You think it is a spiteful, childish and a petty thing, just done out of revenge? What if there are other reasons to expose an affair ? Would you expose the OM if it would improve your chances of R ?

I am also concerned if your wife is just stalling in fear of your exposure(not her, the OM). Alos does her/your family know about her affair?


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## abuginarug (May 20, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> I think you are misguided about the intentions to expose an affair. You think it is a spiteful, childish and a petty thing, just done out of revenge? What if there are other reasons to expose an affair ? Would you expose the OM if it would improve your chances of R ?
> 
> I am also concerned if your wife is just stalling in fear of your exposure(not her, the OM). Alos does her/your family know about her affair?


Exposing his role in my wife's affair will devastate his children. As I think about it objectively, it's too manipulative to be a very successful strategy in the long term. The only thing that can honestly improve my "chances" of R is my wife, and I guess I'm trying to buy her time to remember that I'm actually the guy she married. I can't make her want to be in a marriage with me, regardless of her access or lack of access to OM. I am acting exactly true to myself lately, and if I'm not the man she wants to be married to then so be it. It just would've been more convenient for both of us if she had talked to me about it more directly before falling into another man's arms.

Our parents know about the affair; the emotional depth, the physical level, and the duration of the affair. Our siblings won't need to know of the affair unless we split, or if we R and decide to talk to them about it. (I would like to talk to my siblings about it regardless, to help them if they're ever married - I don't think they'd be able to stay quiet about it though. That's all very delicate at the moment...)

I've been afraid of her stalling all along. This past weekend was really rough on my emotional bond to her. Events that have unfolded since make it even more challenging. If she's not all in very soon, I'll be out. I may be stubborn, but even stubborn runs out of gas eventually.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Telling the truth shoud never ever be seen as a vengeful or petty action.

It's the truth.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Of course she is stalling. She is worried about his children too. The only parties that aren't worried about them are the actual parents of these kids. Shame on them. 

Look at the exposure this way. The damage was already done when their father decided to cheat. That is truth regardless of whether you tell them or not. The children will have to come to terms to that someday or the other. You are just helping him perpetuate the lies. I would say it is time you tell them. 4 years is a long time. They will survive. *You are in some ways following the same logic as your wife. What you don't know won't hurt you(like her affair). You are making decisions for them. *. 


I say this with much empathy but I feel extremely bad for you. You are setting yourself for more humiliation and disappointment . Wish I could shake you out of the delusions you are in. You think you can nice your way out of her affair ? By taking her crap and abuse ? Don't you see anything wrong with what you are doing?(and renaming it stubborn and commitment?) Why are you so content with the tiny scraps of acknowledgement(not even affection) you get once in a while ?

Wondering how your wife will react if you expose it to the kids?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

abuginarug said:


> Exposing his role in my wife's affair will devastate his children. As I think about it objectively, it's too manipulative to be a very successful strategy in the long term. The only thing that can honestly improve my "chances" of R is my wife, and I guess I'm trying to buy her time to remember that I'm actually the guy she married. I can't make her want to be in a marriage with me, regardless of her access or lack of access to OM. I am acting exactly true to myself lately, and if I'm not the man she wants to be married to then so be it. It just would've been more convenient for both of us if she had talked to me about it more directly before falling into another man's arms.
> 
> Our parents know about the affair; the emotional depth, the physical level, and the duration of the affair. Our siblings won't need to know of the affair unless we split, or if we R and decide to talk to them about it. (I would like to talk to my siblings about it regardless, to help them if they're ever married - I don't think they'd be able to stay quiet about it though. That's all very delicate at the moment...)
> 
> I've been afraid of her stalling all along. This past weekend was really rough on my emotional bond to her. Events that have unfolded since make it even more challenging. If she's not all in very soon, I'll be out. I may be stubborn, but even stubborn runs out of gas eventually.


So, don't take this the wrong way but you are weak... you are allow her to call all the shots and come to you when she is ready. Your last paragraph sounds good, but between the lines of information it completely contradicts your first paragraph. If you have not run out of patience by now, then when... "I will let her stall some more..." and "some more" 

I know you want to be a nice guy and not get the OM children involved, how noble. But, guess what, they will find out sooner or later. You like the later, because you want someone else to do it. I stand by my statement of you want others to call all the shots. Fine, then that means your marriage is OVER...


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