# Wife won't cum around me



## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

So basically, been married for 6 + years, have 2 kids under 6, son is a difficult child, at night wife has to lay with him for an hour before he sleeps etc.. then she comes to bed.

Wife and i have sex about 6 times a month. 

wife, without me knowing but i know masturbates with a clitoris vibrator 4-6 times a month. i assume she cums. i finally got her to admit to doing it occasionally but she won't admit frequency, she said orgasms are not even that big of a deal and aren't good since having kids now when she does it to herself (or maybe because you have a closed level of intimacy with your partner??? but she doesnt get that) 

wife and i have sex, i physically function fine, no issues there, i've made plenty of girls in the past cum from vaginal sex, and ones htat couldn't i'd use tongue etc.. no issues there.
wife doesnt like intimacy, though she allows me to have sex with her as the way she basically illustrates it. she will out of the blue without me pursuing her say 'i thought i'd let you squeeze it in tonight' or ' ok lets get this done'. so it seems like she wants it.
she makes me lube up though she doesnt need lube, because i've put a micro drop of lube on and went in and all was ready and wet. 

before sex, we will often watch tv together, no interaction, no foreplay, we seldom make out, she gives me a kiss here and there and lets me make out with her before sex. she seldom grabs my genitals, seldom gives me a blow job, there is no flirting so to speak. 

while under the covers watching tv, i've caught her what appears to be doing is rubbing her clit, and she was trying to hide it because she literally told me 'can you back up' when i was trying to cuddle with her. then after a few mins of that she'll want sex and be ready but still makes me put the lube on to mask the fact she is wet and aroused (my interpretation, not actual evidence that she is masking it, maybe she doesnt realize she doesnt need it?_)

so i have this issue of not feeling wanted or feeling like i am gratifying to her. 

then she'll roll over and say 'lets get it done'

I almost thinking she has some weird fetish where she gets off knowing that she provides me with no sign of her liking sex, it is that weird.


whenever i try to go down on her, she never lets me, she doesnt even let me finger her or really touch her with my hands. she just wants my penis in her and that is it.

i do feel her clitoris getting stimulated via my penis and i can feel her getting super wet and she grabs on to me tight, but unless there is an orgasm that exists that doesnt involve contractions, i don't think there is one and why wouldn't she just tell me ( iam to the point where it is a possibility she'd lie to me about it and say she didnt have one,but she doesnt acknowledge one way or the other). when i try to talk about this stuff she closes up. she never admits to having and orgasm nor admits to not having one either. I did say "well iw ant you to cum" and she just says "it is not something i can really do easily" 

I had a long discussion with her and she finally allowed me to explain to her my frustration. her only response was 'well i can't be this person you want me to be'. and i explained to her that i feel like there is a gap in our intimacy level and the intimacy level she may have had in hte past with some past lover and i don't feel like our marriage is hole. she admits at one time she may have been more sexual, but that's all she says about this.

She claims her life is to hectic to want anything.

We went on a vacation to france for a week in the fall a year ago, when we were there we had sex twice, same robotic sex though. we did spend a lot of time on the road, jet lag etc, so there was not a lot of relaxation, but still. we were in a fancy hotel and had nothing to do yet the sex part was very robotic.


Then, i opened up my can of worms on here recently. I told her "look, i feel like you don't even like me in a sexual intimate way, that you just married me because i am a good provider and father but not a good lover" she said i am a good lover, well duh what else would she say, but no elaboration.

Now i don't think it is physical mechanical issues, literally measured my penis (since this is the internet and no one knows who i am i will share, 6.5" long from top not pushing in the skin on pubic bone area, and 6.5" around at the widest point) so from what i read not the longest thing in the world, but it is quite wide from what i read, i don't go around staring at ****s and porn they don't really look bigger so ya big mystery, every girl has told me it was huge but i thought that's just what girls say, i know how to work it, i've made other girls cum etc.. i've looked into every possible thing on this. 


so the only possibility is that she doesn't love me in a lustful way because she is not physically attracted to me, my penis is my least of my concerns. I am somewhat solid 225 lbs, 6 feet tall, not the best shape but for in my 30s i'd say i am doing fine. she never complains about my weight etc.. my face, well i don't know anyone who can say if their own face is pretty, but i wouldn't say i am some super model either or some oger necessarily, so i would say above average face eyes, i got really nice thick hair no balding etc.. 

my guess is it has nothing to do with my looks so much as how she feels about me, and feelings, well they do strange things.

When we met she had a b/f she was on the last track with and wasn't really that serious commitment wise, she and i met while she was still dating and had a wild first night together, no sex but wild making out feeling each other etc.. then a week later she said he ended it with her. she was upset over that though and kind of started backing off from me at that point. Then he reached out to her and they started to get back togehter and i got mad, and she and him finally broke it off. we were not officially dating at this point, it was more like casual dating.

so part of me thought, maybe she felt like i pushed her into beign with me and she wanted this guy who was not ready to commit. maybe the fact he was cold towards her was the only reason why she even liked him, that was my belief. dude didnt look any more special than me, and he wasnt rich or anything so ya don't get what her fuss over him was, could be just better personality? I got a ton of friends and people thinki ma funny, maybe idon't treat mywife right? who knows.


but back to the point, so my frustration is she won't open up to me to even let her cum. i told her i knew she was masturbating when i am not around ,clearly stated i am 100% fine with htat, but i am not cool with the fact she won't open up to me about it or even do anything beyond basic robo-sex with me. i told her that i'd love to use the toys on her if that works or let her do it with me around.

one time she did it a long time ago, i thoguht it was cool, and then she did it with the shower head while we had sex in the shower and she seemed very uncomfortable with me being there during that.


So after opening up about all that it alked about up here, told her that iw as comparing in my head that maybe she had some wild history and that was bothering me that she cannot be open with me about stuff like this like she was probably at one time in hte past, etc.. she just said "well i can't be what you want" didn't try to quell my concerns by lying about it, just said that. she did say 'well i was never really htat crazy sexual person you think i was'. 


so possibilities in my head:
1) she doesn't like me in a lustful way as much as past people
2) she never has had much intimacy in her life, something i have huge trouble believing.
3) she some how wants to punish me by making it this way and making me feel bad about having sex, because she wants to use it to manipulate. "ok, so i'll act like i dont like it so that way i can use sex as leverage".
4) she used to be sexually intimate in the past, but now that she is older with kids she cannot be that way now. but we never had this intimacy level at all in our relationship since day one. Maybe i shouldn't have even married her? but at the time i didn't even know it was bothering me.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Yuck,

You are the safe plan b.
Shes just not that interested in you. Either accept it or move on


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

chillymorn69 said:


> Yuck,
> 
> You are the safe plan b.
> Shes just not that interested in you. Either accept it or move on


that is possible, but there are too many indicators that make me feel this is not necessarily the case. If i was with some girl i was not into i'd at least let her give me a bj, i know because i've had girls that liked me that i didnt give two craps about before i was married, i made it perfectly clear to them that i'd never really go anywhere with them etc.. just used them with knowing i was using them. so the issue at play here is she seems to have an intimacy issue.

she wasn't married for 12 years of her life and never really had a b/f she lived with before me. she seems to have kept herself walled off to the world. she lived in her own house, had her own job miss independent. i was the first guy she ever lived with and got along with. She was married to a guy back in college and lived with him by address only but never really was around him and was not into him at all. he was very ugly guy from what she told me. then she had a really good looking bf who she never would live with, and he wanted to marry her. he was built well, but she told me (When we first met and you go thorugh that talk about your life story phase) that she never was into him sexually. This guy was in great shape, athletic etc... 

also she wouldn't have married me if she was not into me. so i don't think it is that. i have gone down this path and thoguht maybe it was the case but it logically doesn't add up. 

Although this is an emotional issue, i am removing all emotion from it when doing my figuring out in my head.

So whatever connection she may have had with someone in the past it was due to an emotional well being issue.


Now what she has acutally told me when confronting her is that she is not at ease with her lfie right now, that the house is not in order with kids etc... but when on vacation nothing happens. there is no flare or spark.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> also she wouldn't have married me if she was not into me. so i don't think it is that.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: bwah ha ha ha ha ha!

Whew!

Sorry man. But you are so wrong. Women marry for reasons other than love and desire ALL the time. All the time. 

She's not into you sexually or physically. I'm sorry my friend.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I have no advice for you other than to live with it or make a change for yourself. She sure as heck has made it very clear that she is not going to change, nor does she seem to give a rat's a#* about being intimate with you.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Ok, say that you are correct, she just is not that into me. So my option is: suck it up deal with it, be glad i won the genetic lottery and got a hot wife and i am just some dude that got the hot wife, shouldn't feel bad about that. or be the hot husband with ugly bride and i'd be the one not into sex, or find someone who is less hot than my wife who i'd not be into because i'd be missing my wife. the easy option seems to be suck it up and stick with the wife and just have this hole in me for the rest of my life. I could also be an ass hole and have an affair to get my ego back. 

To put it bluntly, that's my perdictacement, and this assumes divorce is a great easy solution like flipping an off switch. 

so i need to deal with the fact she is not into me, but likes me enough to put out. some men pay money for that service, so it can't be that bad. i mean it costs me money too, i probably spend 3k a month having a wife and 2 kids.

Does anyone have equal parity in a relationship? men with less attractive wives look at porn, those women come on here and ***** about the porn, the men with hot wives ***** about the wife's lack of intimacy, if this is this simple then everyone should be upset. OR people hide it and live their lives. 

Since i went all KGB and figured this out, i know too mcuh maybe?

Did i discover nature's dirty secret? One partner is always going to be wanting someone or something better? 

I think not, i think this is not the way it is supposed to be.

Now i am not revealing my true age because i don't want my wife finding htis with a google search trying to solve my own problem, but she is a bit older than me, being a younger guy my stock value goes up, hers goes down. So she couldn't ever trade up from me to a better looking guy unless she likes old dudes which she doesnt hence she went for me in the first place. Or perhaps she doesnt feel safe with an older guy and i am that safe manipulated young guy.


***patiently awaiting *** the female response to all of this. it will be some complex emotional stuff that us simpel minded men don't get. we think like men, women do think a lot like us but there is more to it.

Should i just go on a work out binge and get in good shape, if it is just looks? 

also the one b/f i discuss she never searches for him on her computer or anything, and i can get around the history delete, like i said i went full KGB, so it's not like she misses this guy. 

I don't think it has anything to do with looks, women are not as visual. The one guy who dumped her was the only guy to ever dump her, she left all the ohter guys before. 

She also was really into me the night we met, granted she had a couple of beers, but she was very complimentary of me etc.. maybe the problem is my personality? maybe i am not romantic enough? that is what i am thinking is the issue. men it's "boobs are not good, face is ugly , ass is too big flabby stomach etc" women it is like "he doesnt make me feel special " or "he just doesnt have that i dont know whaT" and they dont even know whati ti s.
Maybe it is pheromones? who knows


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

Well tough to hear but regardless of your sexual bio you are giving your wife is not satisfied with you either in the bedroom or out. 

If she's getting off in bed next to you but is not wanting mine blowing sex it tells me she's not shut off from sex but sex with you. M

Stop focusing on if you are big down there enough, what you done for other partners your looks. Lots of women that's not important but could be other things. 

Are you doing foreplay during the day or leading up to sex or are you just getting into bed at night going let's get it on? Are you doing enough non sexual stuff for her. Doing things for her clearly showing you are doing it for her not to get laid? You helping with the house, kids whatever? Are you dating her? Flowers for just cause, taking her out so she feels like a woman not just a mom and wife? 

Really look deep in yourself in this. Have some honest talks with her. I hope you get answers cause from what your saying something is blocking her with you. Your wife wants sex or at least wants to get off but not with you. 

Good luck.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

She tolerates you because you are dependable and safe. If my partner said the crap your wife says to you, I would not be with that partner any longer. Telling you to rub one out in her and to "get it over with" is insulting and disrespectful. 

She may have body image issues. She may not like having sex with you in particular. There could be a hundred reasons. But none of those reasons give her the right to treat you with disrespect. 

Download "Married Mans Sex Life Primer". It's a good read and can give you advice on how to become more attractive to her. Another good read is "No More Mr. Nice Guy" which could be very helpful in helping you become more emotionally independent and decisive and can help boost your self esteem. Women respond to men who have confidence and decisiveness. 

If you suck in bed...well...I can't help you there.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> She tolerates you because you are dependable and safe. If my partner said the crap your wife says to you, I would not be with that partner any longer. Telling you to rub one out in her and to "get it over with" is insulting and disrespectful.
> 
> She may have body image issues. She may not like having sex with you in particular. There could be a hundred reasons. But none of those reasons give her the right to treat you with disrespect.
> 
> ...


ya i think it is my lack of self esteem, that must be the issue.

One point of contention is i have a super high sex drive, and when i was 20 it was only slightly higher htan now and back then i'd haev sex twice a day most days. so it might be my issue which leads to a negative feed back loop. right now i am crashing the plane with htis issue.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Eagle3 said:


> Well tough to hear but regardless of your sexual bio you are giving your wife is not satisfied with you either in the bedroom or out.
> 
> If she's getting off in bed next to you but is not wanting mine blowing sex it tells me she's not shut off from sex but sex with you. M
> 
> ...


well the other day i made the day as best possible. helped aroudn the house, took kids outside to play, i did my own thing for part of the day as it was nice out adn i had to get things done for my own hobbies. then i got a sitter and we went to a nice restaurant, after we had sex but still it was akward for her and i felt like she was being this way to be nice. we made out but she said "making out is for kids, lets get this going". maybe i am just crazy and my perception is foggy and she is trying to be sexy to me.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> well the other day i made the day as best possible. helped aroudn the house, took kids outside to play, i did my own thing for part of the day as it was nice out adn i had to get things done for my own hobbies. then i got a sitter and we went to a nice restaurant, after we had sex but still it was akward for her and i felt like she was being this way to be nice. we made out but she said "making out is for kids, lets get this going". maybe i am just crazy and my perception is foggy and she is trying to be sexy to me.


Have you told her to her face how disrespectful that is for her to say that kind of stuff?

I dunno brother. I think she is using you for a paycheck and to help around the house. She acts like she was raised in a barn. What were her parents like? What was her home life like? 

Has she always been this coarse and rude?


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## Eagle3 (Dec 4, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> well the other day i made the day as best possible. helped aroudn the house, took kids outside to play, i did my own thing for part of the day as it was nice out adn i had to get things done for my own hobbies. then i got a sitter and we went to a nice restaurant, after we had sex but still it was akward for her and i felt like she was being this way to be nice. we made out but she said "making out is for kids, lets get this going". maybe i am just crazy and my perception is foggy and she is trying to be sexy to me.


Well that's great maybe keep at it and you will see results. But if this is the case doing this one time isn't gonna cure what's the issue. Rome wasn't built in a day. 

You need to get some honest communication going at some point. Really see what he needs are. She obviously knows your needs. Find out what turns her on in a sexual way. 

One thing you have going for you now is she has a sexual appetite which is better than most on here. You just got to get her hungry for you.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Was it always no foreplay, kissing, intimacy etc? 

She's still having sex with you but you want to see her having some pleasure/lust for you. 

Would you mind her using toys with you there or is this something that offends you or is she just shy about it? 



Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Maybe a stupid question, but you haven't told your wife about all these other "girls" (I'm assuming you mean "women") that you had no problem getring off have you?

Talking about exes is a great way to turn a partner off.

Just have to ask.


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

You really need to get her to open up. Maybe a relaxing safe evening with no intention for anything physical and some alcohol to loosen her up. I know I can talk easier with some wine.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe a stupid question, but you haven't told your wife about all these other "girls" (I'm assuming you mean "women") that you had no problem getring off have you?
> 
> Talking about exes is a great way to turn a partner off.
> 
> Just have to ask.


never have i brought up exes at least not since we met. it was very minor no details.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This might be a good situation for counseling. It seems that she can O by herself, but doesn't want to with you (assuming you have offered to use a vibrator on her during sex). It sounds like you are willing to do what she wants in bed but she turns you down. She is "willing" to have sex but not enthusiastic. 

Its an unusual situation. 

Has she always been like this?


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

MrsAldi said:


> Was it always no foreplay, kissing, intimacy etc?
> 
> She's still having sex with you but you want to see her having some pleasure/lust for you.
> 
> ...



oh i've asked to use toys and she said she didnt want to go through all of that. 

she hides the fact she uses them when i am not around. she just uses a vibrator on the clit thing.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

uhtred said:


> This might be a good situation for counseling. It seems that she can O by herself, but doesn't want to with you (assuming you have offered to use a vibrator on her during sex). It sounds like you are willing to do what she wants in bed but she turns you down. She is "willing" to have sex but not enthusiastic.
> 
> Its an unusual situation.
> 
> Has she always been like this?


it seems like since we started dating it started early on. back then i was young and might not have been as carrying for her needs.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Lizzyb said:


> You really need to get her to open up. Maybe a relaxing safe evening with no intention for anything physical and some alcohol to loosen her up. I know I can talk easier with some wine.


i finally got her to open up, but sadly when i go off the deep end i go hard. i got pretty sad. my main emotion is expressing sadness, i never really get mad that easily.

she admits her faults, and she said the problem is that she feels so secure with our relationship that she just hasn't had to try for so long and takes me for granted. i am too nice too her, that is the problem literally, i don't give her something to chase after. i never have refused sex or gave her an option to even pursue me much.


she also reminded me that i never called her whe nwe started dating at first, she was the one to call me after the night we met, the one to call me after we had called it a quits at first etc.. so she insists that she wanted me.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> So basically, been married for 6 + years, have 2 kids under 6, son is a difficult child, at night wife has to lay with him for an hour before he sleeps etc.. then she comes to bed.
> 
> Wife and i have sex about 6 times a month.
> 
> ...


Female perspective 1: you're a nice guy so she has zero motivation to do squat. 
Female perspective 2: stop giving in to her lame sex. you're communicating that this kind of sex is good enough for you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Download those two books I mentioned and read them. Learn the MAP. Don't tell her about them.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Do you know how to take control in the bedroom? It sounds like you are letting her call the shots instead of being the one in charge. Do you pull her hair, spank her, tie her up, etc???


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> then she'll roll over and say 'lets get it done'


ew.

My response would be "lets not".


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> i finally got her to open up, but sadly when i go off the deep end i go hard. i got pretty sad. my main emotion is expressing sadness, i never really get mad that easily.
> 
> she admits her faults, and she said the problem is that she feels so secure with our relationship that she just hasn't had to try for so long and takes me for granted. *i am too nice too her, that is the problem literally, i don't give her something to chase after. i never have refused sex or gave her an option to even pursue me much.*
> 
> ...


There we go. Glad she's made it crystal clear now.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Have you told her to her face how disrespectful that is for her to say that kind of stuff?
> 
> I dunno brother. I think she is using you for a paycheck and to help around the house. She acts like she was raised in a barn. What were her parents like? What was her home life like?
> 
> Has she always been this coarse and rude?


when we met i was living at home with my dad and starting off my career making not as much as i do now, she agreed to marry me when i was a broke ass. 

i talked ot her about this, i think you hit the nail on the head with me being too nice. i let her walk all over me. she even admits that.

so now phase II, i start being more assertive and confident, either she'll have to try to please me now or she'll get frustrated and leave me. and at this point i don't even care, if it comes to that so be it, i'll get a replacement, doubt i'd haev to go that route.

When i quassi dumped her when we first started dating, she pursued me hard and things were a lot more intimate, so it's like she needs a chase. i am sure all girls are like this, just i forgot that i have to play these stupid games and cannot just be me. maybe a little b it of these games will get her back in gear and we can be normal. I am too open and don't hide things, i am too blunt with my emotions and don't hold anything back.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> ew.
> 
> My response would be "lets not".


OP this is exactly what your response should be, every single time.

While I didn't say any of the crap your wife said, I gave my ex this kind of sex. I lost a little more respect for him every time he took it. Ugh I couldn't believe he was that desperate (OP this is what your wife is thinking when you're "accepting the sex she gives you")

I've told my current partner not to ever give in if I ever try that bs with him.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> Do you know how to take control in the bedroom? It sounds like you are letting her call the shots instead of being the one in charge. Do you pull her hair, spank her, tie her up, etc???


no i do not. i am weird in that i like parity in dominance, my wife is pretty dominant person, very independant, i am in my career and life very dominant person, but i feel like i am taking advantage of someone if i am dominant and that makes me feel weird.


one thing we used to do when we were first dating was she'd wake up in the middle of the night all hot and heavy and want me to do her really bad, so i would obviously. and we stopped doing that a long time ago. 

Perhaps the issue is she wants to feel like i am taking advantage of her, i almost get that hint but i am afraid to piss her off. she almost hinted that she wanted me to do her while sleeping. weird.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Keke24 said:


> OP this is exactly what your response should be, every single time.
> 
> While I didn't say any of the crap your wife said, I gave my ex this kind of sex. I lost a little more respect for him every time he took it. Ugh I couldn't believe he was that desperate (OP this is what your wife is thinking when you're "accepting the sex she gives you")
> 
> I've told my current partner not to ever give in if I ever try that bs with him.


Playing devil's advocate, you may not know that you're in for lousy sex until things are underway. HOWEVER, when she outright says it up front----yeah....I'd be grossed out and ticked off.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

To expand on my remarks above--I think there's really a benchmark that needs to be met. If you're unwilling to do for me better than I can do for myself---pass.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> When i quassi dumped her when we first started dating, she pursued me hard and things were a lot more intimate, so it's like she needs a chase.* i am sure all girls are like this, just i forgot that i have to play these stupid games and cannot just be me.* maybe a little b it of these games will get her back in gear and we can be normal. I am too open and don't hide things, i am too blunt with my emotions and don't hold anything back.


There we go with that same nice guy mentality that got you into this mess in the first place. Just like my ex when I finally told him he was too nice: "so you want me to be a jerk, FINE!" Um, no that is not the idea...

Women NEED men who exude strength. Being a nice guy does not communicate that at all. It makes the woman feel like her partner is weak. Weakness in women may be attractive to men because of their protective nature but it is an absolute turn off for a woman.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Keke24 said:


> There we go with that same nice guy mentality that got you into this mess in the first place. Just like my ex when I finally told him he was too nice: "so you want me to be a jerk, FINE!" Um, no that is not the idea...
> 
> Women NEED men who exude strength. Being a nice guy does not communicate that at all. It makes the woman feel like her partner is weak. Weakness in women may be attractive to men because of their protective nature but it is an absolute turn off for a woman.


boom, there in lies the problem.

and then i dont actually like 'nice girls' maybe i am a freak, but i hate weak girls, i like nice girls, let me rephrase that but i dont like weak girls. ive had really nice submissive girls in the past and i always felt like a jack ass when around them and took advantage of them. 

i like parity, but maybe the problem is my definition of parity is th at i am rolling over and taking it too much.

It's almost like my weakness is my high sex drive so i fall for ****.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> no i do not. i am weird in that i like parity in dominance, my wife is pretty dominant person, very independant, i am in my career and life very dominant person, but i feel like i am taking advantage of someone if i am dominant and that makes me feel weird.
> 
> 
> one thing we used to do when we were first dating was she'd wake up in the middle of the night all hot and heavy and want me to do her really bad, so i would obviously. and we stopped doing that a long time ago.
> ...


She wants to feel like you're in charge and absolutely yes, the feeling of being taken advantage of is also appealing to women (ever wonder why the most common female fantasy is being raped? ditto). She wants you to do her while she's sleeping because it helps fulfill that fantasy for her.

The woman is literally begging for you to take control! She's basically told you what the underlying problem is but you haven't been listening at all, smh.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> boom, there in lies the problem.
> 
> and then i dont actually like 'nice girls' maybe i am a freak, but i hate weak girls, i like nice girls, let me rephrase that but i dont like weak girls. ive had really nice submissive girls in the past and i always felt like a jack ass when around them and took advantage of them.
> 
> ...


She sounds bored.

Try this:
https://www.amazon.com/Mating-Capti...491341595&sr=8-1&keywords=mating+in+captivity


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

keke, another weird thing my wife does "i was thinking we would have sex tonight but i am so tired now" and then the "i wanted to have sex last night b ut you were gone" (when i am working late or something). i don't initiate this convo, she'll out of the blue just say this stuff.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> no i do not. i am weird in that i like parity in dominance, my wife is pretty dominant person, very independant, i am in my career and life very dominant person, but i feel like i am taking advantage of someone if i am dominant and that makes me feel weird.
> 
> 
> one thing we used to do when we were first dating was she'd wake up in the middle of the night all hot and heavy and want me to do her really bad, so i would obviously. and we stopped doing that a long time ago.
> ...


Just because your wife is dominant in real life doesn't mean she wants to be the one that is dominant in the bedroom. And just because you are dominant in your life doesn't mean you can't learn to be dominant in the bedroom. It's a challenge to change a pattern once it's already established, but it can be done. I know it's too late now but it is generally a lot easier to establish good patterns in the beginning, so you don't have to worry about those issues.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> keke, another weird thing my wife does "i was thinking we would have sex tonight but i am so tired now" and then the "i wanted to have sex last night b ut you were gone" (when i am working late or something). i don't initiate this convo, she'll out of the blue just say this stuff.


She's just rubbing this in your face in the hopes that it will piss you off enough so you just take her right then. Please take the hint.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Read the books I mentioned. They will spell all this out for you.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife requires being dominated. Luckily for her, she met me. I take what I want, whenever I want it. She absolutely loves it that way. I never hurt her.

I do think a woman's needs must be met. I love my wife very much. I strive to ensure my wife's needs are always met. I tell her I love her, every day. I thank her for dinner. But I never asked her what she wants. I never ask her permission for anything. Especially when it comes to tossing her on the bed and stripping her pants off her and having my way with her.

Some women are like that. And woe to any man who would be so weak as to need to ask for permission. She said to add ANY man who would be stupid enough to ask for permission would be totally outta luck. (She did not say totally, but they don't want me to use what she said)


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> My wife requires being dominated. Luckily for her, she met me. I take what I want, whenever I want it. She absolutely loves it that way. I never hurt her.
> 
> I do think a woman's needs must be met. I love my wife very much. I strive to ensure my wife's needs are always met. I tell her I love her, every day. I thank her for dinner. But I never asked her what she wants. I never ask her permission for anything. Especially when it comes to tossing her on the bed and stripping her pants off her and having my way with her.
> 
> Some women are like that. And woe to any man who would be so weak as to need to ask for permission. She said to add ANY man who would be stupid enough to ask for permission would be totally outta luck. (She did not say totally, but they don't want me to use what she said)


if i try to go down her she tells me she doesnt want to and pushes me back, should i just take what i want in this case?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> if i try to go down her she tells me she doesnt want to and pushes me back, should i just take what i want in this case?


Nope.

Here's the thing. If she wants you to take her, she wants you to take what she secretly wants for herself. That way she's absolved of any responsibility. Taking her and doing stuff that she doesn't really enjoy isn't going to stoke her fire.

Mental gymnastics, but there you are.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Fozzy said:


> Nope.
> 
> Here's the thing. If she wants you to take her, she wants you to take what she secretly wants for herself. That way she's absolved of any responsibility. Taking her and doing stuff that she doesn't really enjoy isn't going to stoke her fire.
> 
> Mental gymnastics, but there you are.


so figure out what she wants without her knowing i figured it out. so read the hints and signs.


she definitely wants to be dominated, i am seeing this now. she always says "do you want me to flip over" and she likes it that way but doesnt really tell me that. when i flipped over and did it that way she really got excited. this was in the past week or so. 

i am starting to remember the good times that i forgot about in my depressed mind death spiral i was going through.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

It's a tough call. In my case, in that exact situation, I ignored my wife's pushback. It turned out that's exactly what my wife wanted. I did what I wanted, and she loved it. But it's a tough call.

At that time my wife did not have a safe word. I actually had to assign her one. She didn't want one, but as things got more to her liking I worried she might actually need one. I never do anything which might hurt her, but she loves to be restrained. While restraints aren't dangerous really, I insisted she have a safe word to go with them.

After she got her safe word, my wife became empowered to resist and freely say no, without ever meaning it. Then she felt free to occasionally playact the poor maiden. She does tone down her performance from what she would like because I cannot perform if I feel it is too realistic. I want to console her, and I loose my erection. It's just something she likes to do once in a while, probably because I am not up for it. Pun intended. She laughs about it later. We have a lot of fun with sex, and it doesn't bother either of us.

However, I married her, and by God, it is for better or for worse. We go where her responses lead us.

I cannot possibly say what your wife really wants. 

On the dark side, maybe she wants to set you up for a charge of spousal rape. 

But maybe she wants to feel that powerlessness, but won't say it. Maybe she has wanted to try it at least once, and is so sick of the banal she is just tired of waiting.

I knew what my wife liked because we started reading erotic literature together while I massaged her soon after I met her, back in 1973. We spent hours every day exploring what we liked about each other and sex. Life is about exploration.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> so figure out what she wants without her knowing i figured it out. so read the hints and signs.
> 
> 
> she definitely wants to be dominated, i am seeing this now. she always says "do you want me to flip over" and she likes it that way but doesnt really tell me that. when i flipped over and did it that way she really got excited. this was in the past week or so.
> ...


See what happens is, a woman falls for you because you have traits that turn her on. But at the same time, some women see their husbands as projects to be worked on. So they train their husbands to be the "perfect mate". But a few years down the road they realize that their husbands no longer display those traits that attracted them in the first place, because they have trained those desirable aspects out of them. 

Messed up isn't it?


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I believe that you should be up front. Let her know that you have caught her masturbating and let her know that frankly it hurts you. Let her know that you believe that intimacy between the two of you is lacking and you are concerned. Let her know that you consider sex at this point mechanical and do not forget to tell her that her little phrases like "necking is for kids" or "lets get this going" say to you that she considers herself a convenience for you and her interest is limited to you finishing and leaving her be.

Next, you tell her that you will be exploring greater intimacy with her. You intend on possibly seeing a sex therapist and want a fully intimate sexual relationship with her on a go forward basis. Her reaction to all of this will tell you where her head is at. She will come at you with the same stupid stuff like she doesn't like the house messy. (Sorry, I've messed up several houses in my time with a lot of sex in different rooms), or the kids or she's down on herself. Point out, or let the therapist point out that those arguments are spurious, given that she is getting herself off with a vibrator without you. My sense is that she is either not into sex or into you. A sex therapist, or the threat of same should shake some of the real reasons loose.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> See what happens is, a woman falls for you because you have traits that turn her on. But at the same time, some women see their husbands as projects to be worked on. So they train their husbands to be the "perfect mate". But a few years down the road they realize that their husbands no longer display those traits that attracted them in the first place, because they have trained those desirable aspects out of them.
> 
> Messed up isn't it?


lmfao. they want a minivan that can be a 911, so they end up with a porsche Cayenne, but they wanted a porsche 911 and a mini van but cannot settle for a Cayenne and are not allowed to have both. so they spend years converting their porsche 911 into a cayenne and then they want a 911. 

so we have to be chameleon and change forms.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> It's a tough call. In my case, in that exact situation, I ignored my wife's pushback. It turned out that's exactly what my wife wanted. I did what I wanted, and she loved it. But it's a tough call.
> 
> At that time my wife did not have a safe word. I actually had to assign her one. She didn't want one, but as things got more to her liking I worried she might actually need one. I never do anything which might hurt her, but she loves to be restrained. While restraints aren't dangerous really, I insisted she have a safe word to go with them.
> 
> ...



I need to figure out what it is she likes, i need to dig into what she reads. i dont read books hardly ever, and she reads a lot, maybe the answer is right under my nose.

a concern is she did say to me a long time ago her first time having sex was basically her b/f raping her. so that is a huge red flag to me that she wants me to be cautious.

she also jokingly accused of me raping her once when she was sleeping. she initiated the sex, she woke me up half asleep and wanted it. maybe that was a hint i missed.

if she starts to push me back and get physical i am not going to fight her back but at hte same time if i talk about this it might not spark it in her mind because she'll know i am just acting. 

how do i approach this? i don't want to make her feel vioalted, hurt, abused etc.. police really cannot prove spousal rape, that is about hte most difficult damn thing to prove and i hihgly doubt she'd even go there. i've never laid a hand on her or ever really yell at her.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

what if i caught her pleasing herself wiht hidden camera and presented her with the evidence, what do you thinkt hat reaction could go like. i have the know how on how to do this, but i'd have to go get stuff from amazon.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I have to say, if she is a woman who likes to be dominated, you will get yourself into worse trouble by trying to talk nice with her.

My wife says at this point, if that was her, she would just sneer at you and walk away if you tried to make nice with talking.

Some women just see all that talking as a sign of weakness. I know, you think you should be able to have a discussion, but sex is really weird.

I had my wife read this thread before I posted, because it seemed like the answer was appropriate to her particular inclinations. She warns you not to spend time trying to be a nice guy.

However, I have to say I have always been a nice guy for my wife. I just never let her know it, or talk to her about it, or ask her about it. I just have to know what she needs to put her over the moon, and make it happen. But like I said, I had her read erotic literature to me while I massaged her. Her responses told me everything I needed to know.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> what if i caught her pleasing herself wiht hidden camera and presented her with the evidence, what do you thinkt hat reaction could go like. i have the know how on how to do this, but i'd have to go get stuff from amazon.


My wife says she would either divorce you or kill you. Stop with the trying to make her talk with you about it. That's my wife's warning.

Hey, I guess I knew she didn't talk much before I married her. I asked her once about 10 years after we got married why we almost never talked to each other. She thought about it a while and told me, "Everything I needed to say to you I said before we got married."

Anyway, if your wife likes Dominant/submissive stuff, take it from my wife, you do not want to keep poking the hornets nest with all this "talk to me" mamby-pamby nonsense.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

A couple of hard points to the groin.

She is very picky when it comes to men. She values their appearance [potential genes for children] more that for sex.

She likely cannot have an orgasm from PIV. If she does it is rare. So, it is not only you that has left her unsatisfied. Some studies say that 25% of women never can "O" from PIV and another 50% can, but infrequently. She knows this, and does not want to waste any more time and effort trying to "fix" this "problem". She has accepted this as her lot in life.

She lived 12 years without a lot of dates. and without a lot of sex from any one man. Again, [for her] men are for the other creature comforts , not for getting an "O". She does not want to admit to you that you cannot get her off. This is embarrassing to her. And she does not want to hurt your feelings.

Yes, she gives you duty sex. Too bad she is not doing a "bang up" job at it. 

She has gotten very used to pleasuring herself. She does not need men to get her off. She is in the habit of offing herself. Repeat, she does not need a man.

She has accepted this fact. I suspect she has had at least 10 partners or so and none could do the deed. 

For her, it is all clitoral stimulation. And only she knows how to do it. It is a shame. This wife of yours is highly sexed, HD.

Going down on her, she does not like it? The clit is very sensitive. You are probably too rough doing this task. But, without guidance and advice from each individual women, how is a man supposed to know. She gets frustrated easy when it cums to sexual satisfaction. She is not being helpful. It is a sore subject......this V of hers. You said she is very dominant and in control. It is hard for her to let her guard down and let you play with her treasures.

She is a tiger. So is my wife. Approach carefully...or she will bite your head off. 

Do not let her bully you. Be more aggressive than she is. Works for me.

Why the lube when she is already wet? I would not be surprised if it is painful for her to have sex. There are a number of physical reasons for this. Could be mental too, such as childhood sexual abuse. She needs to go to her gyno and admit that PIV is painful.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> A couple of hard points to the groin.
> 
> She is very picky when it comes to men. She values their appearance [potential genes for children] more that for sex.
> 
> ...



i think we figuring this out. She probably just is a dominant one. she did more pursuing of me than i realize when i look back. i got emails from 8 + years ago and we used to email a lot. i remember blowing her off and she'd beg for me back. she liked the chase back then.

then she reformed me as others have said into her little perfect husband htat doesnt fit her heart's desire.

so now i gotta go back to my bad boy ways.


thinking maybe i'd just ambush her one day, have a baby sitter show up on a friday, take the day off (i work from home) and just get her in the car and take her to a hotel. i'll time it with her ovulation cycle so i know she'll be in optimal hormonal balance for sex. i almost NEVer take time off, no spontinaity. i'd obviously take her to lucnh first, but i'd surprise her with this.

then just go act like it was a lucnh date and i had to go back to work until i just pull up to a hotel, can't be a dirty one as she is a clean freak so an expensive one and if its only for an hour who cares, well worth it.


any other ideas on how i can corner this?

i want to do it non verbally, i've talked enough to her about it. 

she laughed and said "so this whole issue you have last few days is sexual? " and it almost seemed to be a relief to her that that's all it is. maybe her little pretending not to want sex is her way to feel dominated, but it is not doing it enough. she likes me knowing she doesnt want it so i take advantage of her.

she physically loves the sex once getting going, and then tells me no when i try to give her oral, and i've read on here some guys just have to do it. maybe i'll do it admits extreme passion, pull my dong out mid stroke and just attack her vagina like a beast with my mouth. i dont know how she'd react, at this point who cares, and i'll just do it and if she laughs yells just do it till she punches me in the nose.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

another thing is, i am dominant in life, socially, at work etc.. and i've seemed to have always had a thing for more assertive women, so perhaps the fact i am the only guy she has lived with, she did have a marriage out of convienience once due to bennefits as her b/f was in the military and she married him all that bs, but didnt live with him for more than a month or so. 

so perhaps she does like me, but i've lost my way. it is possible iw as the one dominant enough to actually settle her down, but she is still a wild tiger needing to be trained. and she secretly wants that form me.

hmm this seems to be a revelation, now i'll just ignore her for a few days, give normal attention, no pursuit of sex, ocne i get a sign from her, her nice subtle signs, then i['ll just go at it.

she seems to love it doggy style and when i grab her sexy hipps and hold on tight and pull her back and forth she seems to really respond well to htat.

also read my ancient emails and text messages. Yes i kept every text i've ever had with my wife, i am weird i know, but it's kind of sexy. the first text she sent me was about how i left marks on her. maybe she needs more teeth more so than tongue lol


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife says... are you sure you want to hear from an actual living submissive?

She says why are you wasting time on lunch!? Just walk her to the car, open the door, put her in, and take her to the room! NO TALKING! A nice bottle of booze you know she likes, and just do her. And do her again, and again. Then take her home.

AND DON'T TALK ABOUT IT!

What is interesting is this is the most I've ever heard my wife talk about this sort of thing, myself. Very interesting.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> what if i caught her pleasing herself wiht hidden camera and presented her with the evidence, what do you thinkt hat reaction could go like. i have the know how on how to do this, but i'd have to go get stuff from amazon.


Terrible idea. Don't do that.


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

You married her because you thought she was hot, number one. The problem is, you admit yourself that the two of you were never really "hot" together, that this awkwardness has always been present in your relationship.

I would seriously pressure her into marriage counseling. Let her know that you need a deeper intimacy with her. 

And please open your mind to maybe exploring kink. To me, it sounds like she might be bored with vanilla. Maybe she's a kinkster, waiting to be released!


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife wants me to post again to say she cannot overstate how important it is to not talk more than absolutely necessary. Don't ask if she wants to roll over. Don't ask her to roll over. Just grab her and roll her over if that's what you want. If you want her on all fours, just pull her up onto her hands and knees. Do not suggest it, do not ask her, do not even tell her what you want. Just put her into position.

Telling her what you want gives her a tacit permission to deny you. My wife would perceive that as weak.

In our case I am over 6 feet tall and did weight lifting since Junior High School. I doubled my wife's mass when I met her, and I can still toss her around with relative ease, and I do. But I do it very carefully now, slowly and very gently, because she has arthritis. She still loves it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

WilliamM said:


> My wife wants me to post again to say she cannot overstate how important it is to not talk more than absolutely necessary. Don't ask if she wants to roll over. Don't ask her to roll over. Just grab her and roll her over if that's what you want. If you want her on all fours, just pull her up onto her hands and knees. Do not suggest it, do not ask her, do not even tell her what you want. Just put her into position.
> 
> Telling her what you want gives her a tacit permission to deny you. My wife would perceive that as weak.
> 
> In our case I am over 6 feet tall and did weight lifting since Junior High School. I doubled my wife's mass when I met her, and I can still toss her around with relative ease, and I do. But I do it very carefully now, slowly and very gently, because she has arthritis. She still loves it.


I'd agree with this, but I'd also stress that if your wife gives you a "no", respect it. At least until you two have some understanding of what your dynamic is or isn't.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

A random assortment of thoughts:



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> she wasn't married for 12 years of her life and never really had a b/f she lived with before me. she seems to have kept herself walled off to the world. she lived in her own house, had her own job miss independent.


I think she got used to satisfying her urges herself, and that's just what she's habituated her body and thoughts to.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> well the other day i made the day as best possible. helped aroudn the house, took kids outside to play, i did my own thing for part of the day as it was nice out adn i had to get things done for my own hobbies. then i got a sitter and we went to a nice restaurant, after we had sex but still it was akward for her and i felt like she was being this way to be nice. we made out but she said "making out is for kids, lets get this going". maybe i am just crazy and my perception is foggy and she is trying to be sexy to me.


That's just doing your part around the house, it isn't foreplay, and isn't going to make her feel sexy.

As for her comment on making out being for kids, keep going and tell her she makes you feel like a teenager again!



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> i finally got her to open up, but sadly when i go off the deep end i go hard. i got pretty sad. my main emotion is expressing sadness, i never really get mad that easily.


That's your default state? Sad? That's not very powerful or attractive.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> one thing we used to do when we were first dating was she'd wake up in the middle of the night all hot and heavy and want me to do her really bad, so i would obviously. and we stopped doing that a long time ago.


Back in the day before children, and sleep was a much less precious thing? I'd guess she had a sexy dream and woke up horny, which probably happens a lot less now with two kids in the house!



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> Perhaps the issue is she wants to feel like i am taking advantage of her, i almost get that hint but i am afraid to piss her off. she almost hinted that she wanted me to do her while sleeping. weird.


Sounds like a great way to wake up to me, but definitely ask her what she thinks first before trying it. Get permission now, do it without consent later.

But, see above. She may value her sleep a lot more than sex now that she's a mom, and not be receptive.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> keke, another weird thing my wife does "i was thinking we would have sex tonight but i am so tired now" and then the "i wanted to have sex last night b ut you were gone" (when i am working late or something). i don't initiate this convo, she'll out of the blue just say this stuff.


Sounds like she's either trying to keep you hooked without having to put in real effort, making you believe she wants you when you're not available to really put it to the test, or her sexy moods do coincide with your absences.

You said she reads a lot. What kind of books? Erotica? Is she getting all worked up when you're not around, then life is getting in the way when you are?



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> what if i caught her pleasing herself wiht hidden camera and presented her with the evidence, what do you thinkt hat reaction could go like. i have the know how on how to do this, but i'd have to go get stuff from amazon.


No no no no no. Do not intrude on her private moments, or confront her about them later. She'll be mortified and it will be ten times harder to get her to discuss sex issues. But, if you 'happen' to catch her in person while she's at it, ask to watch, or to help, or to learn what she does, etc, while allowing her to finish WITHOUT turning it into sex for yourself. You might learn a lot.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> lmfao. they want a minivan that can be a 911, so they end up with a porsche Cayenne, but they wanted a porsche 911 and a mini van but cannot settle for a Cayenne and are not allowed to have both. so they spend years converting their porsche 911 into a cayenne and then they want a 911.
> 
> so we have to be chameleon and change forms.


No, that's part of the problem. You're trying to change yourself into whatever you think she wants. What women really want is a man who is steadfast and being himself at all times, and confident about it. Feeling the need to change yourself all the time to please her demonstrates lack of confidence in yourself, which is unattractive.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

True.

I always respected no as an answer. My wife did say no to me one time regarding oral sex before we got married. But when I accepted her no as no, she changed her mind. That was when I began to suspect there was something odd going on.

Other little things happened along the way. We got married. Then after we were married a year or so is I decided her no really wasn't no. By then I felt I had spent so many hundreds of hours reading her I understood she didn't mean it. Like I said, it's a tough call.

And it was still several years before she was willing to accept a safe word. Even though a safe word is absolutely important. She said it was like knowing she could untie herself, and ruined her fun.

Submissives are much more in control than you might think. They use the Dominant one in the relationship as their toys, I swear. But I am not going to complain. The sex is endless, and very exuberant. And my wife always has a smile on her face.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

OP, you seem to be on the right track and have some "leads" so to speak of how to light the spark in your marriage sex life again. However, don't go full barrels, please!! Give her a little time to adjust. You said in one post that you were going to take a step back and focus on yourself instead of her for a few days....YESSSS...do THAT!!! Don't try any of these new ideas until you've backed off for a few days and truly just focused on yourself.

Let her be her, let you be you. Give up trying to control or coerce...and learn within yourself that you really ARE trying to control and coerce. So that can actually be a good thing later if she wants you to be dominating in the bedroom, so just shelve it for now. Realize that the way you were trying to control and coerce were not effective, and that you need a moment to adjust and find ways that are effective. Your old ways were attempts at manipulation. Your new ways have to be about authentically wanting to experience passion with her, and being open and wiling to find out what that really takes. Don't assume you know what it takes from the posts you've read here (though some may be accurate), but be willing to be wrong and find out where she actually might go with you.

Please do not ever film her masturbating or any other intimate type of picture without her knowledge. This is not ok until you've established with her what you each consider a boundary. What if it turns out she would rather walk in on you while masturbating or secretly film you?? These things must be discussed first in order for them to really work with our sexuality and sense of stability and safety. You will need to feel safe as well. Be open to the idea that the secret garden your wife has may include things that will challenge your sense of safety in ways you would have never anticipated.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> lmfao. they want a minivan that can be a 911, so they end up with a porsche Cayenne, but they wanted a porsche 911 and a mini van but cannot settle for a Cayenne and are not allowed to have both. so they spend years converting their porsche 911 into a cayenne and then they want a 911.
> 
> so we have to be chameleon and change forms.


Don't get hung up on this. Instead, think of it this way....

Your wife, like most people, has sexuality cues that are fluid. She can dip and dive into and out of various scenarios/ideas that arouse her. Or she can ignore those ideas and not dip into them and not be aroused. Or she can just barely dip into them enough to be aroused just enough for self pleasure and not much more.

You are not the minivan or the 911 or anything in between. You are the wild card. You are the provider of potential sexual arousal for her, but only if you do it in a way that actually gets her where it counts. 

Don't be hung up on the fact that you aren't sure where it counts for her yet. If you can discover it, it won't matter what kind of time has been lost. You two will be making up for lost time in ways you never dreamed of before.

But if you keep shaming her indirectly (for not being the sexual partner you wish she was and other things) and if you keep insisting that she "show you" her sexual pleasure with you in just this one certain way (orgasm) that you expect her to show you....then this means she knows you do not accept her sexuality at this time and she's certainly not going to show you more of it. She knows you hold these attitudes and don't accept her when she is authentic. She knows you are trying to control and coerce her, instead of really relax into knowing her intimately. You think you want to know her intimately, but you are trying to control how she shows that to you. Meaning, you don't want to actually know her you want her to follow a script you think is "the way" she must show you.

Forget all you know. Find out who your wife really is. Find out who you really are. Don't expect either of you to be just like the other, or like anyone else. Find that authentic place that only the two of you can hold.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Slowly and steadily become more dominant in areas of your life OTHER than the bedroom. She'll see it and it will tingle her brain. 

When I was dating Odo, he'd always do and act like he always got what he wanted. If his salad was made wrong, he'd return it and calmly but firmly direct the waitress to get it right, like he ordered. He bought some new hiking boots with me, and after paying, wore them out of the store. On the way out he stuffed his old shoes in the new box and tossed it in a garbage bin on the way out. I remember telling him "don't do that, what if you want to use them as an old pair?" and he answered, "I don't."..."But you can't just throw them out like that!"..."I can do what I want" and he grabbed my hand and led me out of the store. I had never been with a man like this. It was just a pair of shoes and he blew up my moment of attempted dominance. I'm a very headstrong woman because life shaped me this way. I'll never forget that particular event. As we were walking in the lot toward the car, I must have looked at him like I wanted to eat him. That evening was more than fun.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

What would she think if I showed up late or
Not at all on a night she wants to schedule sex. She does that sometimes "not in the mood tonight let's do it tomorrow"

Legit might go out with a friend Friday night and she wants to do it that night for example.

This might be more in the jerk department.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> What would she think if I showed up late or
> Not at all on a night she wants to schedule sex. She does that sometimes "not in the mood tonight let's do it tomorrow"
> 
> Legit might go out with a friend Friday night and she wants to do it that night for example.
> ...


Since you don't have this understood well enough yet to know the difference between not pandering to her and being a jerk, that's your cue to just CHILL for a bit and be yourself and stop focusing on HER and her reactions to you.

I don't mean ignore her, I mean pay attention to YOU.

Give this some time to settle.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> what if i caught her pleasing herself wiht hidden camera and presented her with the evidence, what do you thinkt hat reaction could go like. i have the know how on how to do this, but i'd have to go get stuff from amazon.


This deserves a face palm. DON'T DO IT!


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> if i try to go down her she tells me she doesnt want to and pushes me back, should i just take what i want in this case?


Maybe you aren't very good at it? Get the book She Comes First and it will help if you have a technique issue. If I was in your situation I'd handle it in one of two ways. Either I directly tell her what I 
want/expect or I'd tie her to the bed and take control. But for either of those to be effective you have a confident approach, and of course know what you are doing. You can't fake confidence and women have an uncanny sense of knowing if you are BS'ing them in that regard.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> OP, be open to the idea that *the secret garden *your wife has may include things that will challenge your sense of safety in ways you would have never anticipated.


:grin2:

OP, take this statement to the bank.......of the river. 

Do not jump in. If you do, you will drown in your own insecurities. Her fantasies may leave you stunned, stunted and soft as a latex glove.

You manliness can never compete with a dream..... a pipe dream, one flesh, in that form; her thoughts filled with images of virile men, who never tire and never go limp. In her fantasy, she is the center of attention and the men [women?] do her bidding in ways that can never be duplicated in the real world. In her fantasy, there are no words or personalities that get in the way.

Your wife's Secret Garden is not the one discovered by Mary Lennox.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Faithful Wife is giving excellent advice.

Satya and SunCMars have very good insights.

Listen to them.

Let me add being dominant has no relation to being rude or selfish or hurtful or playing mind games. You don't understand yet. It's not about one upmanship, or competition with your spouse. 

Listen to those other posters. They are doing great.

Good luck


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## RideofmyLife (Dec 18, 2015)

Yum! I love a man taking charge. Neediness is a big turn off.


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> What would she think if I showed up late or
> Not at all on a night she wants to schedule sex. She does that sometimes "not in the mood tonight let's do it tomorrow"
> 
> Legit might go out with a friend Friday night and she wants to do it that night for example.
> ...


You totally ignored a ton of helpful comments.


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## RideofmyLife (Dec 18, 2015)

WilliamM said:


> My wife says... are you sure you want to hear from an actual living submissive?
> 
> She says why are you wasting time on lunch!? Just walk her to the car, open the door, put her in, and take her to the room! NO TALKING! A nice bottle of booze you know she likes, and just do her. And do her again, and again. Then take her home.
> 
> ...


William, I'd love to meet your wife. She's got the right ideas. Okay, OP, next time your wife is sending you signals, ask her if your little b**** is in heat and order her to the bed on all fours, chest to the bed and ass in the air. Don't follow immediately. Make her wait, cause whatever you're finishing up at the moment is more important than her needs. Got it?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

We should move to Idaho.

New York is sounding boring. But there are very few places I can find work in my field. Darn it.

Mary would enjoy that scenario, I am sure.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

bandit.45 said:


> See what happens is, a woman falls for you because you have traits that turn her on. But at the same time, some women see their husbands as projects to be worked on. So they train their husbands to be the "perfect mate". But a few years down the road they realize that their husbands no longer display those traits that attracted them in the first place, because they have trained those desirable aspects out of them.
> 
> Messed up isn't it?


Its either that, or they actually WANT a nice guy for a change and get with you. Then years later, the whole 'nice guy' thing has grown old, and they long for the days when they had the bad-asses in their life.

I can tell you that was exactly my ex wife's reason for being with me. Over time, she lost respect for me, then ultimately left me for a bad-ass. Shocking.

And I'm pretty much convinced my current wife has done the same thing. A string of *********s, then she meets me. That was attractive to her at that point. Being treated like **** grew old for her. Now she has me, I'm not going anywhere, I give her what she wants from a partner's perspective, but not a lovers.

I believe my wife's actually genuinely happy, believe it or not. She has a partner who provides for her, fills the gaps the other dudes wouldn't, and if she wants sex, she gets sex. She doesn't have to try. But there's little to no respect there, for my needs. At this point, there doesn't have to be any more. When you get to the point where one person in the marriage refuses to do something on occasion because they don't feel like it, you're in trouble, IMO. If my wife ever tried to cuddle up with me on the couch, and I said "no, I don't feel like it" and proceeded to remove her arm from me, then what would she be thinking? "WTF? What an *******!" and then probably days of feeling rejected and sad and angry at me. But she can say no, she doesn't feel like, to sex any time she wants, and not understand why I'm feeling rejected and sad and angry.

The need to mate guard often dies with the realization that they have a 'good man'. Whether we like to admit it out loud or not, women tend to use sex and sexuality to attract a mate. Nothing wrong with that, it's human nature. But at some point, they may decide it's no longer necessary (or as necessary).

Men and women want to have sex for different reasons, generally speaking. I believe my wife DOES actually like sex, despite her not being a sexual person. But there has to be a rudimentary attraction that goes beyond the physical. It's not even a sexual attraction in most cases. It's about the kind of man one is. It's the reason *********s and PUA's have more sex than I do.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@alexm nailed it. My wife wanted a "nice guy" after a string of jerks. Once she had a ring on her finger, being with nice guy got boring. So she lost all attraction for me. Real fast. Like during the wedding reception.

OP needs to stop being a doormat. As others said, does not mean be a jerk. But stop being co-dependent. Stop catering to her at all costs. Stop accepting poor treatment with no consequences. Stop kissing her butt. Start acting like she is just as lucky to be with you as you are to be with her. Maybe she is luckier!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Too damn complicated.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

so i had a massive revelation with my nuclear strike i did.

what did i do" my passion let out" i went completely insane, yelled at her (she never gets yelled at ) and scolded her. then i murdered her boy friend, ripped him to peaces with my bare hands, spread his rubber plastic and wires all over the bed. after that i flipped the bed over and broke some things.

she gets it now, things are better

at first she thought i was jealous of the vibrator, i said 'well i am the one who tries to use it on you, not hte one who goes into the corner like a teen age boy with a porno magazine by yourself'.


she had the fear of God in her, she looked so timid and fragile and i know she loves it. 

she needs time and i am giving her space but she couldnt keep her hands off of me.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Holdingontoit said:


> @alexm nailed it. My wife wanted a "nice guy" after a string of jerks. Once she had a ring on her finger, being with nice guy got boring. So she lost all attraction for me. Real fast. Like during the wedding reception.
> 
> OP needs to stop being a doormat. As others said, does not mean be a jerk. But stop being co-dependent. Stop catering to her at all costs. Stop accepting poor treatment with no consequences. Stop kissing her butt. Start acting like she is just as lucky to be with you as you are to be with her. Maybe she is luckier!


I'm in the (probable) minority of men who don't think women who do this, do it on purpose, however.

My wife does not need sex. She maintains she never has. I do believe her. Some folks are just built that way, much to the detriment of the rest of us.

But sex is what will get you a man, like it or not. And if you're a 'no sex before marriage' type, the _promise_ of sex will get you a man, one who's willing to wait for you. Win/win in that case.

So no matter what kind of dude you are, it's highly likely you're going to get sex for the first little while. And it's not disingenuous sex, either - they really DO want to make you happy, or really ARE attracted to you. They're not faking it.

We men are basically taught, or learn ourselves, that being a d-bag will get us laid. Being a nice guy will not. Being a nice guy will get us lots of female friends, and eventually a wife (when they get tired of d-bags), but it will never, never, ever get us laid - even in marriage. At best, we'll get sex at the beginning of a relationship - because that's, unfortunately, how women are conditioned to get a mate (barring religious convictions, of course). And if we luck out and marry a woman who needs sex (not just likes it), then we get sex, but likely not a need for _us_. (I was married to that woman once). Or, like many of us, we marry a woman who likes sex but does not need it, and as soon as that attraction to us/the relationship ends, then sex is infrequent because there's no need.

So the d-bag is desirable until he's not. The nice guy is desirable until he's not. Each are good for only one thing, and they're not the same. Neither guy 'wins' in life, as far as marriages go.

You not only have to find a middle ground, you have to tailor that middle ground to your partner. How much of a d-bag or nice guy can I be? How much is too much, or not enough? Will she be furious if I don't do always do laundry, or will she lose respect for me if I do laundry too often? What's the fine line between showing vulnerability and showing weakness? Do I look at other women in front of her, and if so, how often before mate-guarding jealousy turns into anger at being disrespected?

Everybody's different. But all women want a bad-ass AND a nice guy. And that's not an easy thing to do.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> so i had a massive revelation with my nuclear strike i did.
> 
> what did i do" my passion let out" i went completely insane, yelled at her (she never gets yelled at ) and scolded her. then i murdered her boy friend, ripped him to peaces with my bare hands, spread his rubber plastic and wires all over the bed. after that i flipped the bed over and broke some things.
> 
> ...


Who cleaned up the mess?


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

alexm said:


> Everybody's different. But all women want a bad-ass AND a nice guy. And that's not an easy thing to do.


Unless of course you get branded "Mr. *******" and, to her, that's what you are even if you are nice to her all the time. Then you can be both at the same time.


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Fozzy said:


> Who cleaned up the mess?


she did. 

and then all day it's been constant eye ball ****ing and tension with her and i, and kissing.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

alexm said:


> I'm in the (probable) minority of men who don't think women who do this, do it on purpose, however.
> 
> So no matter what kind of dude you are, it's highly likely you're going to get sex for the first little while. And it's not disingenuous sex, either - they really DO want to make you happy, or really ARE attracted to you. They're not faking it.


If they are honest. Most are not. That is, if you are a nice guy, your girlfriend and then fiance and then wife does not at any point on the spectrum admit "I don't find you attractive, but I do want to make you happy, so I will sleep with you to make you happy." They say that they DO find you attractive. Which is misleading. Because you assume they mean sexually but what they really mean is as a husband and father but not as a lover.

Some of us are very slow on the uptake to realize they did not mean what we heard. I am skeptical that most of them do not know they are running a con. They know they don't melt or get hot and sweaty for you like they did for the bad boys. They pretend that desiring you as a provider and co-parent is the same as desiring you as a sex partner. It isn't. Do you think most of women cannot tell the difference? Would love to hear from the gals about that.

But most of all I just want to slap the younger version of me upside the head and say "idiot, you have a mirror, how could you fall hook, line and sinker for the obvious lie that she found you physically attractive and enjoyed sex with you?"


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> If they are honest. Most are not. That is, if you are a nice guy, your girlfriend and then fiance and then wife does not at any point on the spectrum admit "I don't find you attractive, but I do want to make you happy, so I will sleep with you to make you happy." They say that they DO find you attractive. Which is misleading. Because you assume they mean sexually but what they really mean is as a husband and father but not as a lover.
> 
> Some of us are very slow on the uptake to realize they did not mean what we heard. I am skeptical that most of them do not know they are running a con. They know they don't melt or get hot and sweaty for you like they did for the bad boys. They pretend that desiring you as a provider and co-parent is the same as desiring you as a sex partner. It isn't. Do you think most of women cannot tell the difference? Would love to hear from the gals about that.
> 
> But most of all I just want to slap the younger version of me upside the head and say "idiot, you have a mirror, how could you fall hook, line and sinker for the obvious lie that she found you physically attractive and enjoyed sex with you?"



the same bad boy can become the provider though. they only want the bad boy because he is making bad boys. bad boys make more bad boys like rabbits, darwinism is programmed in our psyche.

i was the bad boy with many girls, i was the bad boy with my wife, then i became the provider. you gotta remind them you aer still the bad boy. htis is what i figured out.

i also figured out my wife is a tiger, and the reason why she is so difficult and why she loves me is the fact that other men crumble under her paw. she broke up with every guy she was with because she turned them into pussies. most was she dumped them, one guy she just decided to buy a house when he was talkking about buying a house because he didn't just do it. she never really lived with anyone prior to me. she was the elusive tiger, and i was the man that tamed her, but sometimes my tiger gets out of hte cage and i gotta grab the snare and i forgot how to do that after so long.

last night i snared the tiger and now she is a kitty that purrs at me all day.



i think women value looks, but there are far more doable men to them (provided they have the personality) than there are doable females for us. we are pickier with looks, and personality we just overlook. they wouldn't settle for a guy they were not attracted to, so i don't think it is a physical thing. it's not like a guy dating some super model then ending up with the plane jane ugly girl and missing the hot girl, it's more of the personaility and confidence and people can transition.

also this thread i see how men **** this up. we act like jerks instead of confident guys. w confuse confidence with ass hole.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> so i had a massive revelation with my nuclear strike i did.
> 
> what did i do" my passion let out" i went completely insane, yelled at her (she never gets yelled at ) and scolded her. then i murdered her boy friend, ripped him to peaces with my bare hands, spread his rubber plastic and wires all over the bed. after that i flipped the bed over and broke some things.
> 
> ...


Wow aren't you the big man? You throw a fit of rage and then take pleasure in making your wife fearful, timid and fragile. 

You need help, probably from a prison psychiatrist.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> so i had a massive revelation with my nuclear strike i did.
> 
> what did i do" my passion let out" i went completely insane, yelled at her (she never gets yelled at ) and scolded her. then i murdered her boy friend, ripped him to peaces with my bare hands, spread his rubber plastic and wires all over the bed. after that i flipped the bed over and broke some things.
> 
> ...


What would you say to a woman whose husband uses porn, so she destroys his computer and/or cell phone? And then makes him clean it up?


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## FORTIFIEDORANGE (Mar 27, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> What would you say to a woman whose husband uses porn, so she destroys his computer and/or cell phone? And then makes him clean it up?




If i wasn't having intimacy with her, and was wanking off to porn all day i'd deserve it. i almost never even look at porn anyway. i have good imagination, good visual memory and can think of my wife. 

she didnt even care about the destruction. 


she also claims no one has ever been with her while she has had an orgasm (except the one to 2 times she has used a vibrator with me, and those times she was super nervous and not at ease), not sure if i believe that but it makes more sense now. It makes more sense that she has never opened up with anyone because in all of this time she has never really opened up with me. she won't let me go down on her long enough to finish her, and doesn't give me instruction of what is needed and i can feel her getting close but she won't let me finish. so there is some kind of mental block. she and i both want to work on this issue now, before she didn't even want to discuss it. 

first step; use vibrator while sitting next to me more often, perhaps after some good PIV mid course, just stop and use vibrator. then perhaps use it while PIV, then perhaps let me use it on her etc..

I am a guy, i remember when i was younger no amount of blow jobs could get me to cum, i was nervous and clammed up, it took me with my g/f at hte time a long time to get me to do that and open up. some guys get Premature EJ when nervous, i am opposite. still get a hard on no issue at all, but i remember that b ack then when i was clammed up.

I think this lack of intimacy during sex was causing her to be upset all the time. she'd demand to have no one be home and whenever that happend she'd use her vibrator and need her 'alone time' because to her that was the only intimacy she could feel.

i had to destroy that barrier with force because any attempt to get near it would get met with a claw at the face.


as for the others who say i intimidated my wife, i didn't do it in a way where she felt in danger, she knows me well enough to know i'd never hurt her, i am so gentle to her always in verbal and all other forms that she knows i'd never hurt her. i can't even spank my own kids. i also have extremely good anger control and never cause confrontation. her seeing me this way made her realize i am strong and that makes her feel safer not the other way around. it's hard to describe in words how i did this but the after effect is clear; she feels better now, i feel better we opened up.

we had great passionate sex, probably best we've had ever at least i can remember. we were all exhausted so it wasn't a quick 10 minutes of extreme passion. and it wasn't her 'faking it' because she doesnt have it in her to fake anything. no orgasm, but she came close i could feel and she was a monsoon down there.


If anything my main personality weakness is i don't like to hurt people, so i do everything to avoid confrontation and control of others. Ironically, my job is all about being dominant and controling of others and taking charge, so maybe the problem is when i get home from work i don't want to boss people around anymore and i want to just let it be. I had been letting my wife take charge and she didn't like that.

women want the man to drive the car, woman want the man to pick the restaurant the woman wants to go to eat at, but it better be the right restaurant lol. Why is this? because women feel safer when their man has balls. They don't want an ass hole or jerk, or control freak, but they want a man who can be confident. I hadn't been showing my true self, i thought she wanted mr. nice guy because that's what iw ant 'mrs. nice', i have to remember women want what women want not what men want. 

I give my wife a ton of freedom and flexibility. I knew she was masturbating all those times i left the house and thought maybe it'd open her up more. I purposely let her do it because i knew she needed to get it off of her chest. The sex life was improving that time, but now it's time to have her do it with me, she has had enough time to explorer her sexuality.

once she is comfortable around me to get herself off routinely, i'll encourage her to masturbate again.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator note:*

TAM does not and will never tolerate the expression of viewpoints that abuse (verbal or physical) within a relationship -by whatever sex- can be justified.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> what did i do" my passion let out" i went completely insane, yelled at her (she never gets yelled at ) and scolded her. then i murdered her boy friend, ripped him to peaces with my bare hands, spread his rubber plastic and wires all over the bed. after that i flipped the bed over and broke some things.


If my husband behaved like this, it would not be tolerated. 

This isn't the behavior of a mature man, this is a the behavior of a toddler. Completely childish. 

Therapy, book an appointment, as soon as possible. You need anger management.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

While you got the reaction you wanted from your wife, you got it for the wrong reason. Do you understand that there is a big difference between having a woman that wants to submit and give herself to you, and a woman that is afraid of you and is trying to appease you? Disappointing behavior on your part and unlikely to get you where you want to be. Please take some time and do the reading that has been suggested. It will be a lot more beneficial for you.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> so i had a massive revelation with my nuclear strike i did.
> 
> *what did i do" my passion let out" i went completely insane, yelled at her (she never gets yelled at ) and scolded her. then i murdered her boy friend, ripped him to peaces with my bare hands, spread his rubber plastic and wires all over the bed. after that i flipped the bed over and broke some things.
> *
> ...





FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> last night i snared the tiger and now she is a kitty that purrs at me all day.


Even a tiger will cower when it has no escape and knows that it will get beaten with the big stick.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> i had to destroy that barrier with force because any attempt to get near it would get met with a claw at the face.


To use an english expression that might get past the censoring, until Matt Matt reads it of course "What a load of complete and utter bollocks.". You have some serious issues, I'm not surprised she can't be intimate with you.




FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> as for the others who say i intimidated my wife, *i didn't do it in a way where she felt in danger*, she knows me well enough to know i'd never hurt her, *i am so gentle to her always in verbal and all other forms that she knows i'd never hurt her.* i can't even spank my own kids. *i also have extremely good anger control and never cause confrontation.* her seeing me this way made her realize i am strong and that makes her feel safer not the other way around. it's hard to describe in words how i did this but the after effect is clear; she feels better now, i feel better we opened up.


By your own words - she had the fear of God in her, she looked so timid and fragile. Again you are talking total bollocks, you are simply trying to justify your anger outbursts.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> we had great passionate sex, probably best we've had ever at least i can remember. we were all exhausted so it wasn't a quick 10 minutes of extreme passion. and it wasn't her 'faking it' because she doesnt have it in her to fake anything. no orgasm, but she came close i could feel and she was a monsoon down there.


Oh the poetry in your language, it's so touching.



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> once she is comfortable around me to get herself off routinely, i'll encourage her to masturbate again.


Sorry I misjudged you. That's such a wonderful thing to do for her, encourage her to masturbate once you are OK with it.[/SARCASM] 

You need help.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > What would you say to a woman whose husband uses porn, so she destroys his computer and/or cell phone? And then makes him clean it up?
> ...


You did not answer my question.

There are plenty of men who seldom or ever have sex with their wives because they prefer porn. I asked you if what you would say about these women doing something similar to what you did… break the equipment they use porn on, break a few things around the house…..

What would you say to a woman who did this in a fit of rage?

Further, do you think this would make her husband want to finally have sex with her?



FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> she didnt even care about the destruction. .


You lack empathy, don’t you? I doubt that she did not care about the destruction. As you said, “she had the fear of God in her, she looked so timid and fragile and i know she loves it. she had the fear of God in her, she looked so timid and fragile and i know she loves it.”

You interpret her looking timid and fragile as her loving you? That’s fear, not love.

And now you want to tell her when and where she can masturbate? Do you realize that she does not need a vibrator to do that?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

FORTIFIEDORANGE said:


> her say 'i thought i'd let you squeeze it in tonight' or ' ok lets get this done'. so it seems like she wants it.


Umm no. No she doesn't.

This level of sexy talk must be so exciting you must literally be jumping.... away from the bed....

"ok let's get this done!" :grin2:


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

Well, this certainly took a dramatic turn.


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