# How many times can you accept these excuses?



## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm too tired
My stomach kinda hurts
Raincheck for tomorrow?(never follows thru)
I feel bloated
General coldness, obvious disinterest

These are what I get more and more often these days. I have told her just tell me you are not interested, you don't need to lie to make me feel better. She does not like this.

The other day I told her, franky, "OK, well, when you are interested and feeling good let me know." In a, I don't plan on trying this anymore until I get some positive feedback manner. This also went over very poorly... with a "Oh stop it!"

I've talked to her several times about her interest levels, what the issues might be, what if anything I can do to help, it's all left with "well I just don't like initiating..." which is not a problem, b/c I initiate without any problems... 

I don't feel as close anymore, and find myself just fading into my own interests more and more, excluding her on several occasions. I have tried some of the tips in the Man Up section, she seems to like this in terms of her mood, but in the bed it's no different. It's almost as if she thinks I'm happier how I'm acting and will be fine with no intimacy that day, week, etc.

Introspectively last night I spent a good while thinking about the outside the bed intimacy... and I precipitate almost all kissing. She will hug, hold hands... but kisses is all me. She also will just kiss as long as I instigate, and it stops immediately when I stop. It was not a happy realization to make.

Outside this, all else is perfect. There are no EAs, no PAs. Of this I am absolutely certain.

She has never been overtly sexual, but this is an all time low... and she's mid 30s, I feel like it should be opposite based on hormones and gender as we age. I don't know if I can live my entire life like this.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Have an honest conversation with him and decide if this is a deal breaker. It is for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Her sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Quit mentioning it. She wants to be left alone? Be cheerful about it but find something else interesting to occupy your time, preferably something that also includes numerous attractive ladies. Whistle, wear a grin, give her a little peck on the cheek and pat on the butt and let it be. Make sure you look extra nice, smell extra nice, and act extra happy. I bet she'll arrive at the conclusion on her own that she needs to start acting interested.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

I do keep my hygiene in check, and I do hit the gym 3-4 days a week.

I can try again to just act like I'm fine, but after a while it wears me down. I am tempted to completely immerse myself in my fitness. If for no other reason than to keep myself tired, and endorphins running high.

It's hard to never mention since I'm the only instigator in the entirety of our relationship. If I don't, we don't.

I don't have women friends, or places to go to see them sans the gym but I'm not there to chat. I'm becoming a beaten man. I'd rather be with her with these limitations than without her right now. Things change I guess.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

Also her parents are very keen on us having kids, meaning I have to listen to it all the time from them. 

I am very reluctant to add this to the relationship as it stands now. I have visions of myself in the basement rolling solo far too many times.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

How many times can you accept these excuses?

The answer to that is up to you. You will accept them as many times as you accept them. Any behavior of hers is up to you to accept or not accept. If you settle for these excuses you will get them forever.

Tell her what you want, what you want your marriage to be and what you will settle for. Let HER be on the end of deciding if she can accept it. Why do you feel you deserve to be the one to accept something?

Absolutely don't have kids and tell your wife that you will not have any kids until this is solved. I would also not hesitate to tell the in-laws that you feel it's wrong to bring a child into a non-intimate, non affectionate and non sexual marriage. Let someone argue with that one.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

Hicks said:


> I would also not hesitate to tell the in-laws that you feel it's wrong to bring a child into a non-intimate, non affectionate and non sexual marriage. Let someone argue with that one.


Setting off this atom bomb has gotten close before. Oh lord that would be something to behold.

Great points elsewhere too, it's the advice I try to give myself and try to act upon. I don't know why I feel like I must accept certain situations and excuses. Fear of being alone, rocking things to the core, etc. That's the truth I imagine.

Thanks


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## wemogirl (May 31, 2011)

Cadmus said:


> I'm too tired
> My stomach kinda hurts
> Raincheck for tomorrow?(never follows thru)
> I feel bloated
> ...


Just a couple of thoughts here. I don't know how much I can add since right now I tend to have a fairly high drive but in the past (after having 2 kids in 12 months) I could have gone months w/o being intimate with my DH and been fine with it. My low libido issues were hormonal and then later, from the meds I was on. 

If you don't think there's a physical problem with your wife, I would sit down and tell her you miss the emotional closeness that comes from the physical closeness of sex. I just read His Needs Her Needs and it says that sexual fulfillment is usually a man's highest emotional need. It's how he feels a close connection to his wife. Maybe you've already told her this, I don't know. But I think you need to let her know that she's pushing you away emotionally when she pushes you away physically.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Cadmus,

The idea is not for you to go to places with other women so you can chat with them or have an affair. The idea is for Miss Dontgiveadamn to figure out that she isn't the center of the universe and for her to have a reason to take some initiative. I would not even consider making kids with her until steps up to the plate and acts like a real partner for a sustained period of time. In any negotiation, the party with the greatest need takes it in the shorts. You have positioned yourself to be the party with the greatest need. You always initiate. She doesn't have to because she knows you will. She doesn't have to exert herself because she experiences no ill consequences for not exerting herself. If folks at your place of business were paid equally whether they performed or not, I suspect many wouldn't bother to come to work. You might try one last time to verbalize your plight something like this: "Intimacy with you is very important to me. I miss it and it's not something I'm willing to live without. I didn't get married to be someone's buddy or to have a roomie to share expenses with. I will attend counseling with you, go to the doc with you, make animal sacrifices or dance naked under the moonlight if it would help us recapture our lost intimacy. I will not force myself upon you and I won't bug you about this again. See you when I get back. Don't feel you have to wait up. "


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

Sorry for the long response...

I am not proud to say it, but this was me about 4 years ago. Even today, I can't really pinpoint what the exact problem was for me. I love my husband with all of my heart as I always have, but intimacy was just on the bottom of my long list of things to deal with and I was just so exhausted at the end of the day. Even before I had the baby, I had a stressful job that zapped my energy. I did use those excuses you mention above quite often. Most of the time, I was telling the truth. What is bad is that I would use my excuse and then after he would show his disgust, we would both roll over upset. In the end, I got less sleep than if I had just tried to get in the mood. His reaction made me resentful and actually made the situation worse.

My husband believes that the birth control pills that I was taking were hindering my sex drive and to some extent, I believe that to be true. As soon as I was off of them a couple of months, I saw a tremendous change in my libido. I also had a terrible body image problem. I have never been "overweight" but I am 5'3 with a tiny frame, so even a little bit of weight made me feel unattractive. What I didn't know is that my husband loved my body, but he just didn't take the time to tell me that. Once he started telling me the things he liked about me, I started to feel more confident and thus more sexy. I have lost the weight that made me feel uncomfortable because I am just hard-headed, but now I enjoy buying and trying on different lingerie for him. 
We now have the opposite problem because we have 2 small children that make it a little harder for us to fit in the time, but we do even if it is in the middle of the night. Trust me, even though he has to go to work the next morning, he doesn't complain.

Your wife needs to know how serious you feel about it before you start getting too resentful. You need ask her what you can do to help her feel more sexy. If she isn't openly sexual, try getting her think about it for a few days and write down what she believes is the problem. It could be anything from having too much responsibility and stress to being resentful to you for something or a combination. I am much more open to my husband in writing. I can't tell you why that is, but it works well for us. Be prepared, some of it will be your fault.

Try to be patient and understanding. I am still coming around in several areas, but because my husband works to make me feel confident, I am constantly working to get rid of my inhibitions. 

In the end, she has to be willing to meet you in the middle or neither of you will ever be happy and it will eventually lead to someone really hurting the other.


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## wemogirl (May 31, 2011)

Hicks said:


> How many times can you accept these excuses?
> 
> The answer to that is up to you. You will accept them as many times as you accept them. Any behavior of hers is up to you to accept or not accept. If you settle for these excuses you will get them forever.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Hicks said:


> Absolutely don't have kids and tell your wife that you will not have any kids until this is solved. I would also not hesitate to tell the in-laws that you feel it's wrong to bring a child into a non-intimate, non affectionate and non sexual marriage. Let someone argue with that one.


I second this! You say everything else is perfect. It is not so- you feel youreself slipping away, this will affect everything in your marraige. Sexual intimacy may be less than 10% of the relationship but when you aint getting it & feeling rejected at every turn, it becomes magnified to 90%. Do not put your head in the sand. 

You have every right to expect an affectionate, passionate wife -especially before you bring kids into the fold ! You will be expected to be on even MORE of a back burner -you can add another 20 things to that "not in the mood" list once a baby enters the picture. 

Sorry to be so glum, but many a men have been where you are, and wish they got out sooner, most especially if you are very HIGH drive. You need a woman who will allow herself to be aroused when you are wanting it, not pushing you away. 

Some things truly are deal breakers.


If she is talking hormonal birth control pills, these can really hurt her sexual desire, so that is something to consider.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I suspect it's important to her that you do certain things. Pick the most important thing she expects of you and then ask yourself how she would react if you refused because you felt bloated.


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## Nickitta (May 12, 2011)

You need to "grab the bull by the horns" and address this situation. As your partner does not care about sex, this could go on for years. A relationship without sex is a "friendship". As the years go by, it will turn into a brother-sister relationship and you deserve better than this. You are far too young to settle for this. One of my acquaintance has been in a sexless marriage for the last 20 years and his only regret is that he didn't get out of it sooner.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

Good tips and ideas all. 

She has told me she is unwilling to go off BC until we actively decide to have children. I have told her I would like to see her off it now b/c of the hormonal implications(I did not directly say sex drive).

Work stress is indeed on the list too I forgot to add that. In fact it's one of the largest. However, I'm stressed from work too! Hell intimacy is one of my best ways of alleviating stress.

Lingerie is off the table, anything sexy is. It's athletic shorts and shirts every night. I'm a boxers only kinda guy. It doesn't bother me, or make me less interested... but her comfort is paramount and that's my resentment to a degree.

I've thought about NOT initiating at all for as long as it takes, not with the expectation that she will initiate, but at what point would she at least bring up that I have not initiated perhaps... at least then I know it crossed her brain and she cared enough to mention it. My fear is I will be celibate for some time. 

I almost want to do it as ammo to have when we do talk, in a jerky, mean way. I don't like to feel that but I do.

I fear I will be destroyed if she opens up honestly and decides to tell me she just doesn't want to, somehow not attracted to me or even out of love. I don't think love is missing from her to me, altho at this point what do I know. 

Would a self-imposed abstinence as an experiment be crappy?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Cadmus said:


> Setting off this atom bomb has gotten close before. Oh lord that would be something to behold.
> 
> Great points elsewhere too, it's the advice I try to give myself and try to act upon. I don't know why I feel like I must accept certain situations and excuses. Fear of being alone, rocking things to the core, etc. That's the truth I imagine.
> 
> Thanks


What you really need to know is that being bold enough to state the truth is something that will cause her to be more attracted to you. 

She knows she is trading in your fear of being alone, and that fear you emote is no different than a horrible stench you could be emitting (in terms of sexual attractiveness).


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Women, and I suspect most men, if they simply never get turned on and never want to get turned on, trying to outwait them is a pointless game. The first few years after my wife announced the love shack was closed, repo'd, demolished and paved over I thought she'd come around. I was willing to accept that because of her health issues at the time, it was inevitable, at least initially. But after a while it was painfully obvious that had her medical circumstances been entirely different it would not have made any difference at all. And there is zero point in pursuing the matter further. 

When I reflect on the first years of our marriage, it's clear she never had any discernible sex drive at all and was merely going through the motions, however limited and poorly executed out of shear willpower to keep me around to conceive children and maintain her otherwise. But to be fair, no one can fake it forever and when it became opportune for her to simply admit it, that's what happened. Given the almost nil frequency of sex beforehand, it wasn't really that much of a loss or a sacrifice. The thing that stings more than not having sex is the realization that there will never be sex in this relationship. If I stay married, I will go to my grave essentially becoming celibate at age 34 and even that, having had sex maybe 10 times outside of our planned conceptions, in the 13 or 14 years prior to that.

And I would correct Nickitta on one point. Utterly sexless marriages do not devolve into friendships. The devolve into a heavily armed truce.


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

I really think that punishing yourself just to spite her is not going to help the situation at all. Spite should never be used as a marriage tactic as it can make a bad situation much worse.

Your comment about what she wears to bed is a little disheartening. I miss the days when we didn't have children and clothing was optional. Probably wasn't fair to my husband now that I think about it. Wearing next to nothing and turning him down. By wearing a tshirt and shorts to bed, she is already telling you she isn't interested in sex. My husband would have never accepted wearing anything like that to bed. Are you sure she doesn't have any issues with her body image? Frumpy clothes are a sign that she is hiding her body from you.

Have you tried to buy her any pajamas that are both sexy and comfortable? You could try something silky or send her one of those pajamagram things. 

I understand your fear of finding out what she may be thinking, but no matter what you do, even if you 'withhold', you are eventually going to have to face her real feelings on the matter.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Kricket said:


> Have you tried to buy her any pajamas that are both sexy and comfortable? You could try something silky or send her one of those pajamagram things.


My wife figured out how to defeat that by constantly claiming she's cold. Hiking sox, check, sweatpants, check, thermal t-shirt, check, hoodie, check. I imagine she's wearing panties as well or even thermal underwear but I haven't seen her that unclothed in 20 years so who knows?

Yesterday it was in the 90's. By bedtime the house was an acceptable 75-6 or thereabouts. Fans, OFF, extra quilt LOCKED AND LOADED.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

Kricket said:


> Have you tried to buy her any pajamas that are both sexy and comfortable? You could try something silky or send her one of those pajamagram things.


Good points again... I quote the above b/c I did indeed do this, a pajama set that was tasteful, and I complimented her when she wore it... the one time. Didn't happen again.

She has always worn those clothes to bed, even when things were more "heavy." I had never considered it an obvious no signal, but perhaps that's the message being sent.

She does always run "cold" like RLD notes. I wear boxers and no covers and she has tops bottoms and sheets going.

She is a bit sensitive body wise, but I try to reassure her by touching and complimenting spots she would deem "bad". I guess I can add that to a topics list should I muster up.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> My wife figured out how to defeat that by constantly claiming she's cold. Hiking sox, check, sweatpants, check, thermal t-shirt, check, hoodie, check. I imagine she's wearing panties as well or even thermal underwear but I haven't seen her that unclothed in 20 years so who knows?
> 
> Yesterday it was in the 90's. By bedtime the house was an acceptable 75-6 or thereabouts. Fans, OFF, extra quilt LOCKED AND LOADED.


If I'm overstepping, say the word... but, why do you stay? You may have answered this a million times elsewhere on here but I would really appreciate insight.


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

Cadmus said:


> If I'm overstepping, say the word... but, why do you stay? You may have answered this a million times elsewhere on here but I would really appreciate insight.


Being new here, I was wondering the same thing.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's complicated.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> It's complicated.


No, it's simple - you CHOOSE to.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> No, it's simple - you CHOOSE to.


Totally agree.
You get what you accept. This is relevant to the OP. You can allow your marriage to degrade into Dog's by forever saying it's too complicated to fix, or you can nip it in the bud now. It does get way more complicated once kids come along.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My kids are grown.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Cadmus,

I think you married my wife.. everything you describe is pretty much my life to a T. We have good days and bad days. I do think she is trying, but not hard enough. I am far from giving up because I believe she really wants to get better. There are lots of success stories from people like us that give me hope, but it just sucks sometimes.

I realized lately that I am lonely, don't have enough friends outside the house, so I come straight home and I am just in her face way too often. I want her to miss me and look forward to me coming home, so in order to do that I think I need to get out of the house more than I do now. I play in one band now.. I might try playing in, say 2 or 3 bands so I always have something going on.

We've only been married 7 months and we have a 4 month old, so I think about 75% for us is just adjusting to drastic changes within a very short period of time.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Runs like a Dog,

Heavily armed truce? That's a pretty apt description. It's like patrolling the Korean border every day. I doubt there is any way a unilaterally sexless marriage becomes a friendship. How can you like someone who starves you? How could you like someone who doesn't have the guts to kill you outright but doesn't mind destroying your spirit? Can't bring themselves to take a knife and castrate you, but will do so passively, sadistically, each and every day for years? Cast a blind eye to your pain daily for years and actually have the nerve to smile at you or call you "Sweetie"! Such a person doesn't get friendship, love, respect, and they'll only get minimally decent treatment through great effort. Luckily, men in sexless, loveless marriages generally have mercifully shortened lives.


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Cadmus,

Read MEM's thermostat threads and start using them. I can tell you firsthand that once you have children it will get worse. Eventually resentment will kick in and it will destroy the marriage. I am struggling everyday with dealing with it.

-Bill


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Women, and I suspect most men, if they simply never get turned on and never want to get turned on, trying to outwait them is a pointless game. The first few years after my wife announced the love shack was closed, repo'd, demolished and paved over I thought she'd come around. I was willing to accept that because of her health issues at the time, it was inevitable, at least initially. But after a while it was painfully obvious that had her medical circumstances been entirely different it would not have made any difference at all. And there is zero point in pursuing the matter further.
> 
> When I reflect on the first years of our marriage, it's clear she never had any discernible sex drive at all and was merely going through the motions, however limited and poorly executed out of shear willpower to keep me around to conceive children and maintain her otherwise. But to be fair, no one can fake it forever and when it became opportune for her to simply admit it, that's what happened. Given the almost nil frequency of sex beforehand, it wasn't really that much of a loss or a sacrifice. The thing that stings more than not having sex is the realization that there will never be sex in this relationship. If I stay married, I will go to my grave essentially becoming celibate at age 34 and even that, having had sex maybe 10 times outside of our planned conceptions, in the 13 or 14 years prior to that.
> 
> And I would correct Nickitta on one point. Utterly sexless marriages do not devolve into friendships. The devolve into a heavily armed truce.


:iagree:

I'm with ya. I went the "Let's see how long she can go" route. Working on about 15 months now...with no letup in sight. Outside of the obvious COMPLETE lack of affection, love and caring....we have a great relationship. :rofl: Seriously, though...we are like a good team, raising two kids. Good teamwork. We don't NOT get along....we just don't have a relationship anymore. I'm 48 (married for 12 years)....and going down the same celebacy track.

I assume, at least for me...at some point....I'll have the cajones (not to mention the financial basis) to finally leave her. But...two kids really complicates the issue. Without them...I'd have been long gone.

So....I agree ...don't have kids until/unless this is resolved. Having kids just traps you even further, if it is a bad relationship. God help me...I love my kids. They keep me going. But that can't be enough to spend the rest of my life without love/affection/sex.......{sigh}.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Runs like Dog:

I too have seen many of your posts and almost feel angry on your behalf. What what I don't get is most of your posts are logical, well though out and articulate. Clearly you are a very inteligent person with a dry sense of humour. What I don't get is armed with all of that why do you accept this situation as it is? Is there nothing you can do to invoke change in her? Can you not leave and find happiness? I couldn't accept those terms. Wouldn't even consider it, regardless of kids, finances, etc.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It's important to point somethign out.
"Not accepting" is not the same as leaving her.
It is asserting your needs in the marriage and creating the marriage you want. That is a turn on to your wife, whereas accepting it is a turn off.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

There was some progress made last night, I mustered up some courage b/c of this forum so a large ty to all. It wasn't all great, but it wasn't terrible, I didn't hear the things I was afraid of.

We did ML, so that was a large positive on the night. I don't plan to try the waiting game, I have been reaffirmed quite positively it's not in her nature to be overt. This, I CAN accept. It's some of the finer points and interest that we are struggling to figure out, and will continue to I imagine.

I did throw down some lines relating to lack of intimacy meaning lack of closeness, lack of love, etc., and how I don't want that. Some things got responses, some got apologies from her, some got some trite responses. 

Work to be done on both sides. If I get reciprocal work from her as I work on myself great, but if it's one sided that will be it for me, she's either in it with me or we go our own ways. Put up or shut up.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Hicks said:


> How many times can you accept these excuses?
> 
> The answer to that is up to you. You will accept them as many times as you accept them. Any behavior of hers is up to you to accept or not accept. If you settle for these excuses you will get them forever.
> 
> ...


Very wise indeed.


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## Cadmus (Apr 11, 2011)

nader said:


> Cadmus,
> 
> I realized lately that I am lonely, don't have enough friends outside the house, so I come straight home and I am just in her face way too often. I want her to miss me and look forward to me coming home, so in order to do that I think I need to get out of the house more than I do now. I play in one band now.. I might try playing in, say 2 or 3 bands so I always have something going on.


Yep. This is me as well. I have lost touch with many Uni friends, and people I have met since working over the last couple years. My hobbies are mainly done at home, too!

If I travel for work for a couple days, coming home we are both usually far more amorous... relatively speaking. Absence and the heart. 

May benefit me to get out more, consistent social environments is something I used to do well with and keeps my mood up.

Having a child tho for you that has to be a huge difference, unless all of this persisted prior to having a kid.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

A resource I can personally recommend.

Married Man Sex Life


I an in a deep affair right now. This link helps me sustain and add richness to it.

The affair I am having is with my wife. 

This blog can help you out one way or another. Give it a try.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

We had great sex before the pregnancy and still do sometimes. That's part of what gives me hope. At her best she is very warm, passionate, sexy, and awesome at what she does. I wouldn't have stayed with her long enough to get her pregnant if it wasn't so! It is just life, frustrating but this forum gives me alot of perspective on how much worse it could be.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

eagleclaw said:


> Can you not leave and find happiness? I couldn't accept those terms. Wouldn't even consider it, regardless of kids, finances, etc.


Good question, I don't know. Probably my absolute in the basement lack of self esteem. I feel at the core of it I'm just a horrible ruined mess of a person who while, I might not deserve what happens to me, certainly wouldn't know what a normal loving adult relationship looks like and I'd screw it up disastrously. That's how I feel about it.


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## Kricket (May 10, 2011)

Cadmus said:


> There was some progress made last night, I mustered up some courage b/c of this forum so a large ty to all. It wasn't all great, but it wasn't terrible, I didn't hear the things I was afraid of.


So glad to hear something positive


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Good question, I don't know. Probably my absolute in the basement lack of self esteem. I feel at the core of it I'm just a horrible ruined mess of a person who while, I might not deserve what happens to me, certainly wouldn't know what a normal loving adult relationship looks like and I'd screw it up disastrously. That's how I feel about it.


You should start your own thread some time where we can try and figure out your situation and maybe improve upon it. I know where your thinking. I was having issues at home as well. It was effecting my overall moods and quality of life overall. A few of the posters here, marriedmansexlife and the general realization that it wasn't me only how I viewed myself based on my relationship turned me right around. And once I believed in myself and saw even the slightest change in my relationship - I had hope.

It takes years to get to where your at - but you would be suprised how fast you can turn it around and feel good about your self again. For me, somewhere along the way of self discovery - self improvement and talking with other men (in myself is was particularily the words of atholk and mem) that suddenly turned a switch on in my head. You just need to remember who you were before marriage.... and start there.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I was waaay more messed up before marriage. Being married initially, for me, was actually a refuge. I have felt profoundly unlovable and unworthy forever.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> I was waaay more messed up before marriage. Being married initially, for me, was actually a refuge. I have felt profoundly unlovable and unworthy forever.


But why keep trying to validate something that is obviously not true.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

You know in every other avenue of life, when everyone else tells you "A" and you say "B", they're probably right. When your parents never liked you your sib never liked you and your wife and kids think you're trash, you kinda have to with the majority. Sure, they suck too, but I know I'm not a good person.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Well even if that were true, which I doubt is the case - you can change that as soon as you decide you want to.

Figure out who/what you want to be - then make changes to work towards that goal. 

And by and large, from most of your comments here - you do not come across as a bad person....... just a little resentful and probably rightfully so.

The very fact that you are here and post regularily shows that:

1) you care
2) you desire change
3) you are intelligent and choose to aquire more information
4) you are social
5) you have an opinion and aren't afraid to share it

these are all good qualities and characteristics that we all share. These are some of my best qualities - and I like me as do most other people.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

And I actually look forward to your posts mainly because they are frightenly honest, to the point, often funny as hell, and sometimes say exactly what others might be thinking, but aren't brave enough to say.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

I had this exact problem. With encouragement from these boards, I put everything on the line and now my wife is halfway out the door, we are in counseling and I get laid every other day. Go figure


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Runs,
I like you. You have many good qualities. How do you get on with folks at work? What about social friends?
Truly you seem like a decent fellow albeit somewhat beaten down.


question, I don't know. Probably my absolute in the basement lack of self esteem. I feel at the core of it I'm just a horrible ruined mess of a person who while, I might not deserve what happens to me, certainly wouldn't know what a normal loving adult relationship looks like and I'd screw it up disastrously. That's how I feel about it.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Runs,
> I like you. You have many good qualities. How do you get on with folks at work? What about social friends?


I am, for lack of a better phrase, a cross between a Grand Inquisitor and the KGB directorate for internal state security at work. It's a fairly contentious role to be in but in terms of my co- 'counter intelligence' types, I get along fairly well. We're a naturally circumspect bunch. I actually get along far far better with external customers.

Social friends? Not very many. Mostly couples things or bowling leagues and such but socially I get along well. See I have zero tolerance to talking shop when not at work so I tend to stay away from people who do that. To be honest I'd rather spend the time down at the Food Bank or a homeless or women's shelter.


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## Red347 (Jun 12, 2011)

What most women do not understand is that porn is a way for a man to avoid being controlled by a woman. To men, sex is based on carnal thoughts, not love. Men do not have sex to show a woman he loves them. He provides for them, buys them gifts, remains loyal in the physical sense (because even he cannot control his mind), are ways men show love. Ladies...Honestly...How many times after sex does your husband roll over and go to sleep? Is there truly hugging and holding all through the night? I think not. Once the carnal thought-driven sex is over, a man is back in control of himself. Some men prefer to masturbate, just to rid themselves of these carnal thoughts. These thoughts are part of man's mind process, there are no way around them. At least with masturbation and porn, there are no infections and you still have your money in your pocket, and most importantly, a man is still in control of himself.

Another separate topic I'd like to address is that cheating not the same for men and women. Say for instance there is trouble in the marriage. The man cheats. In retaliation, the woman goes and gets bled out by a freak of nature. Afterwards they make up and reconcile. It wouldn't work out because she can never again have satisfying sex with her husband. This will lead to a level of discontent in her which in turn, will lead to disrespect. While on the man's side, maybe the cheating sex was lousy, and deep down inside, he wished he never done it. But he does not come back to the marriage physically changed forever, and unable to please his wife. Those are major differences.


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