# Note to my Wife



## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Hey there peeps. I have not posted in a while, mainly because things have been getting better. However, I think we have gotten to a spot where we have stopped improving our relationship and there are still the same fundamental issues we need to work on. 

I continue to do a lot of soul searching on what I really want in life and I am learning a lot about what I need and deserve. I feel I need to challenge my wife to change/progress, usually with success. we are to the point we need a baseline our expectations. 

Also, she is really wanting to have another baby. It is something that I don't really "need" but am OK with the idea as long as there is a commitment to our relationship and improving it. I am compelled to get our relationship to a point of near Nirvana and set the expectation to make it a goal to keep it there should we decide to go for #4.

With that, I am sending her a note to ponder followed by a heavy discussion on what we really want in life...I wanted to get the thoughts of the enlightened folks here on TAM:

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Babe,

I love you very much and look forward to living a long and fulfilling life with you. While we think about adding another little one to our family, it is a good time to reflect on what we need to make sure our life together is what we each want.

I think it is important that we baseline our core expectations in life. For me, I expect to have mutual respect with those I associate with. I have one more expectation with the person I choose to have a romantic relationship with; mutual sexual fulfillment. I live life according to these fundamental rules while at the same time having fun in the process. Everything else is completely secondary and in some sense unimportant when compared to these principles. 

While we have come a long way in improving our relationship, I am not yet satisfied with these core needs.

*Mutual Respect* – for me this is being honorable, trusting, loyal, courteous (in tone and behavior) and empowered. Where I feel we fall short is the way we talk to each other and where we set boundaries. We need to set some firm boundaries around checking things and giving each other directions. I am not being respected if I participate in a checking ritual with you. I understand that this is very difficult for you and not completely under your control. A compromise would be if I continue to participate but you need to be OVERLY respectful to me in other areas to create a balance. I also DO NOT like being told what to do or how to do something. Pick the few things are important to you and I can adapt my natural behavior. Once adapted there will be no need for direction.

*Mutual Sexual fulfillment* – for me this is both of us enthusiastically and passionately giving each other sexual pleasure frequently. A few things I think we need to work on:
 -_Frequency _– having sex (intercourse) at least every other day on average (I could do every day or twice a day)
-_Quality time_ – I feel we don’t give ourselves enough time to really enjoy ourselves, need to be more playful before (touching, kissing, etc) and spend more time on foreplay.
-_Mutuality _– Stated simply, I am not fulfilled unless you are fulfilled. That means my partner needs to enjoy and desire sex as much as I do. It is no fun when it seems like you are doing me a favor, that is not the place I am going to be in. Honestly, I need to have a partner that appreciates sex as a gift to each other and ourselves, not something I have to thank them for "giving to me". 
-_Variety _(place, positions, style) – I really hate the whole closet thing, really. We need to change it up more, be more spontaneous. I like the way you dress up sometimes, I like that we use toys. I need to be in control sometimes, I need to be able to initiate and be more assertive with you. Challenge yourself and be creative.
A few examples:

-On the bed, in the living room, in the kitchen, in a chair, on a table, in the bath/shower, in a pool, in the car, outside, in a palace garden. Forget to wear you panties. Slip you hand down my pants in public. Sneak away for a quicky at a party.
-Role playing, a little D/s, dirty talk – it is OK, encourage in fact, for you to be MY dirty ****, no one will know.
-It would feel much better if you take my cum in your mouth, you can spit or swallow...that is not the issue (imagine if I stop using my mouth/tongue before you cum).​
Maybe we can try to explore and agree on any hard boundaries we each have, then we are both free to take charge within those boundaries. I want to be more playful, daring, challenging, curious.

If I break it down into the simplest of ideas, I think you need to let go of some control, both from a personal respect and sexual standpoint.

Please know that this comes from a place of deep love and desire for you. I respect you completely. I also want to make sure I am doing all I can to fulfill your core/fundamental needs. We need to commit to meeting each other’s core needs. If we are unable to meet them today, we need to exhaust everything we can to make it happen. If we ultimately can’t meet them, we have a difficult decision to make.

I prefer having these conversations face to face, but wanted to be as clear as possible and give you a chance to absorb. Let's discuss when you are ready.

No matter what, I will always and forever love you.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

I think it sounds a bit demanding. And it looks a little long.

I haven't followed your story to know where your relationship is at exactly, but this sounds like if the relationship is in good shape you might get away with this and if the relationship is not in such good shape you would get a response of only thinking about yourself or only thinking about sex.

Sexually, she's going to enjoy it more if she's free to not enjoy it. K... If she's having sex with you because you want it, make it okay. Let her tell you. And when she tells you, don't try holding out to last a long time to impress her or try to get her to orgasm.

Your enjoyment doesn't depend on hers. Or it shouldn't. If you're making it that way, it's putting pressure on her that takes away from her enjoyment.

Overall, the note has a bit of a soft tone.

Well that's my responses I'll offer as a starting point.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks Will. A bit demanding with a soft/loving tone is the style is was going for. 

The relationship is in a decent place, best it has been since we got married (15 years ago), just not where it needs to be yet. 

I have to admit I am going through a bit of a selfish stage...trying to figure out and get what I need. Most of my life I have been a pleaser, to my detriment. I want to make it understood that I believe people should and are able to get what they need in life and it is our own personal responsibility to make it happen. 

I also want to make sure my needs and desires are crystal clear.

Those are my goals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I just skimmed the draft of your letter. I would suggest a couple of things:

1) In the letter, address your needs specifically in the context of the disruption caused by a baby. I'm assuming you would not be happy if she put you on the back burner once a new baby came along. If so, you should make that clear - tactfully. You could say "I realize that a new child will be an adjustment, but I would expect our sex life be back to normal within <X> months".

2) You need to tell her that her conduct has made you mistrust her and it will take a long period of time for you to believe that she is serious about meeting your needs.

3) If you are not open to another child without the requested changes, you need to be able to say so. Similarly (depending on how set she is on having another child), you need to anticipate that placing conditions on having another child may cause her to treat you badly or even threaten to leave, and be strong enough to hold your ground and deal with the fallout.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

hubby said:


> Thanks Will. A bit demanding with a soft/loving tone is the style is was going for.


I must not have been clear enough because I was seeing those as a bad thing.

When I said a bit demanding, I meant it seems a little lacking in respect for her.

When I said soft, I meant in a manner that is a bit contrary to that which creates attraction.

I think sex is just going to have to be something you want, and you're going to want to make it something enjoyable that you offer her to join into it with you and do it your way - take it or leave it. 

"Honey, I want to hammer my tool into something tonight. Get onto the kitchen table if you want it to be you."

You've had 3 kids, you should know this is a time when you can't get your way all the time, and if she says no and you fight it, it's only going to become a bigger no.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

I will say:

The idea that you could have another small baby to attend to...whilst maintaining an active sex life (and even elevating it to another level--as you seem to desire)...does not seem realistic.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

My 2 cents....

I thought the sex part was ok.... specific ideas of what you're wanting. But the "mutuality" part COULD be more about "us" and "our intimacy"....as opposed to your "partner" and what they need to do. That sounds kind of detached, not loving or intimate or sexy.... jmo. Then again, if you are only having sex in the closet then SOMETHING needs to change. I think you should say what you need (as you did) but also figure out HOW she would be most receptive to hear it. You know her. 

I didn't quite understand the respect part...but maybe SHE would? Cuz she knows you and knows what you are talking about. 

And that line at the bottom....about ulimately ...and hard decisions? Sounds like a line when the marriage is in trouble. Like "we need to straighten up right now or else". If you are in a fairly happy place in the marriage, that line would seem pretty harsh...like coming out of nowhere. I'd take that one out, at least til the discussion, and then SAY it if you feel the need to. 

I'd end it with something like "I just want our marriage to be as strong as it can be before we add a new baby to the mix."


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Very good feedback Sunny, thanks. 

On the respect part, my wife has OCD and she begs me (to the point of tears) to participate in her rituals. It is much better now and I would say I only spend 60 minutes a week on it, but that time just tears me appart. I feel completely controlled, treated like a child in hand cuffs. I am caught in a complete double bind where no decision I make is a good one. The obvious answe is for me to remove myself from the rituals...it is just not that simple. 

The other part of respect is that she simply expects me to have the same behaviors as her with regards to cleaning, checking, locking doors, etc. It ranges from her insisting on when and how long I wash my hands to the sequence of events required to turn off and lock up the car when I am with her. 

These may seem like trivial things, but when you accumulate each occurrence and the fury it creates in my soul, it is just something I can't live with. 

I also don't feel I have her complete trust as she throws the honesty card in my face from time to time. 

I am finally at a place where is can see my life long term, where I want it to go and what actions I can take to make it happen. 

Even though our relationship is in a better place, this newfound clarity has allowed me to see where we where when we first met, the person I was before her and the man I want to be. 

Honestly, i feel that if my wife can't be the person I need to have as a romantic partner, I am empowered to find that person. Life is too short and too awesome to do anything less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Ok....now I get it.

*I am finally at a place where is can see my life long term, where I want it to go and what actions I can take to make it happen.

Even though our relationship is in a better place, this newfound clarity has allowed me to see where we where when we first met, the person I was before her and the man I want to be. *

I really like this part. Because if you get yourself together then ya, you start figuring out what you want your life to look like. Good for you. But no offense here.... why add a new baby to this? It still sounds like a bit of a mess. And it sounds like you are still a bit up in the air about whether it's ever going to actually "get better", or be solid. 

My H is OCD... not as bad as your W tho. And we talked about it before I moved in with him. He said it drove his ex crazy, and that's how he learned he had a problem. The Dr. told him, if it's a problem for your family, those who have to live with you and deal with you... then YOU have a problem. Makes sense. But I told him...it's YOUR problem, if it is a problem. I am not participating. He doesn't have so many "riturals", it's more like doing things a certain way, and worrying about things (like the double checking). When it occurs, he apologizes for "my damn OCD"... but I don't mind it, cuz it's not imposing on me. 

All that is to say... there has GOT to be a way to extract yourself from her OCD issues. Of course you have to live with it, but it shouldn't be such a burden as to suck the life out of you... or the "self". 

I would think THAT has to be your next focus... to untangle yourself as much as possible from that issue. I can't imagine bringing another baby into it until you two get a few more things squared away.... and the OCD and the sex are REALLY big things.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

SunnyT said:


> Then again, if you are only having sex in the closet then SOMETHING needs to change.


It absolutely needs to change. Sex is only in the closet (literally) and only when she initiates. She does not like when I initiate, makes her feel pressured. 

She also has a tough time relaxing which makes it hard for her to orgasm. What ends up happening is that we rush through foreplay (I have to beg her to give her oral which she allows maybe once every other month). The whole process makes me fell bounded by rules and I am not free to express my true sexual self when we are together. After I finish I offer to finish her manually or orally, but she turns it down. About one out of four times she will break out the rabbit if she is areoused enough when we are done and it takes her another 30 mins or so to finish by herself. 

The whole thing is a bit absurd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

SunnyT said:


> . All that is to say... there has GOT to be a way to extract yourself from her OCD issues. Of course you have to live with it, but it shouldn't be such a burden as to suck the life out of you... or the "self".
> 
> I would think THAT has to be your next focus... to untangle yourself as much as possible from that issue. I can't imagine bringing another baby into it until you two get a few more things squared away.... and the OCD and the sex are REALLY big things.


Thanks for the encouragement. My gut tells me that I need to figure out a way to pull myself out of the crazy, I just need to make it happen. It also needs to be part of my communication plan. I guess it really is simple to do, it is just hard to deal with the emotional blackmail that ensues. I am left being told and felling that I am abandoning her mental health. I know what I am really doing is stoping the enabling cycle but rational thought is sometimes hard to keep a hold of when rubber hits the road. 

I will make it happen...one way or another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dm661 (Jul 1, 2012)

My first post here!

I'm a male, 42, married 19 years with 2 teenage kids.

I read your letter and almost thought it was a joke. I know that it isn't, but just thinking about writing something like that to my wife made me chuckle.

I'm a highly cynical dude when it comes to sex in marriage. I'm lucky to have sex with my wife a 2-3 times a month. When we do, it's pretty good, but it's when we don't that some real frustrations set in. 

I've been where you're at, wanting to reason with the other person, writing letters to communicate in some logical fashion, what you need and want out of life. After all, the feelings you have are real and your intentions are true. Your heart is in the right place and you want nothing more than for your wife to be happy.

I hate to break it to you, but based on the issues you're having and from what I can gather from the tone of your letter, you're doomed. I truly hope that your wife will read your letter and accept it wholeheartedly, perhaps go over a few things with you and compromise, etc., but that's just not likely to be the case. As another reply said earlier, you run a huge risk of positioning yourself as a selfish sex obsessed pig, no matter how well intentioned you are. "That's all you men want" and "That's the last thing on my list" are likely to be heard in this argument. 

She's talking about #4? That means she's dealing with 3. That's huge and if you believe that she's going to be able to flip a switch (like we can) and get horny for you like you do for her and give you what you want every other day, you're dreaming!

Again, I'm highly cynical and skeptical for you, only based on mine and many friends' experiences in life. 

If I were you, I'd either take it when it's offered (because you'll be sorely disappointed when she rejects you otherwise and you'll build a fair amount of resentment) and maintain with regular masturbation.

Trust me, that's the way it's gonna go. If it doesn't and you are successful in your plan, then more power to you as you are a master and part of a very few elite relationship guru.

Good luck.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Are you two in counseling? Either together or IC? 

I applaud you for working on it, and instigating these conversations. But do you think it will work? As in, be effective? It just seems like these two issues are way bigger than one person, or for that matter, the two of you. 

I think, if I were you... and if you haven't already.... I would read every article I could find about "extricating myself from my spouse's OCD rituals"... before I have this conversation. Because then, you'd have a few more concrete ideas in your pocket. Figure out HOW you're going to make it happen before you confront her about changing things...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

DM, I will make it happen, either with her or someone else. 

Ultimately in my heart I know she will do whatever she can possibly do to make hit his work, she just likes status quo and needs to be challenged to change. In the end she will reap the benefits as well. 

I was once in a sexless marriage but it was not until I had one foot out the door and laid down the hammer that she changed. We now have some sort of sexual bonding about 3-4 times a week. It is just not the quality sex I need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Wait -- you literally have sex in the closet?

Just when I think I've heard it all...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

SunnyT said:


> Are you two in counseling? Either together or IC?
> 
> I applaud you for working on it, and instigating these conversations. But do you think it will work? As in, be effective? It just seems like these two issues are way bigger than one person, or for that matter, the two of you.
> 
> I think, if I were you... and if you haven't already.... I would read every article I could find about "extricating myself from my spouse's OCD rituals"... before I have this conversation. Because then, you'd have a few more concrete ideas in your pocket. Figure out HOW you're going to make it happen before you confront her about changing things...


Neither of us are in counseling. We did go a few times together a few years after we married. She dropped it after about three sessions and I continued with IC for about a year. When things came to a head a few years ago I again suggested MC, but she wanted to try it on our own first. We were able to pull ourselves out of a disaster but now it is time to bring it to the finish line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

lamaga said:


> Wait -- you literally have sex in the closet?
> 
> Just when I think I've heard it all...


I know, it is crazy. At first I rationalized it as better than nothing, but now I know I deserve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dm661 (Jul 1, 2012)

hubby said:


> DM, I will make it happen, either with her or someone else.
> 
> Ultimately in my heart I know she will do whatever she can possibly do to make hit his work, she just likes status quo and needs to be challenged to change. In the end she will reap the benefits as well.
> 
> ...


That's the key, either with her or without her.

I did same about 12 years ago, moved out for about 6 months. She was very affected and turned on a dime. She changed drastically and sex was very hot, etc. At first I thought that it was the beginning of a change, something good. But, alas, things went back to the way they were slowly but surely.

My experience has shown that women do change over time, especially when they have babies or once they found a man that will take care of them. I'm not saying all women are like this but I do think that most are. It's stereotypical, but true.

My wife is like that. I love her to death, but she is not capable of realizing just how much I can give her if she just allowed me to. In many cases, she's her worst enemy. Sometimes it's good, most of the time it's not all that good. Hormones affect their emotions like nothing else. As men, we're at the mercy of these hormones and how they change our beloved wives. We may not realize it but we're under their control most of the time.

Your letter is a desperate move, but I understand where you are.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

*Ultimately in my heart I know she will do whatever she can possibly do to make hit his work, she just likes status quo and needs to be challenged to change. In the end she will reap the benefits as well. *

I think...that she would LIKE to do whatever she can, it just seems like she needs professional help. She may not be capable of making the changes that need to be made. And I think YOU need help to figure out how to untangle, and how to deal with the fall-out that HAS to happen. 

But for sure.... you cannot bring a baby into this, if you have an inkling of this not working.


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## dm661 (Jul 1, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> I think...that she would LIKE to do whatever she can, it just seems like she needs professional help.


Insinuating she needs professional help is like opening a package marked with a radioactive symbol.

:gun:


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

You are asking a lot in the sex department. Once every 2-3 days is better then every other day. Don't get me wrong, I'd like it 2-3 times a day somedays. My drive is higher then my husbands, but I never expect sex. He didn't expect from me when my libido was low either. We are both very respectful. If your willing to compromise, cool. 

One thing, I regret fully not having another baby while I had the opportunity. It's too late now. I can't take time back. We can not have anymore children. Hubby got the V since I'm unable to physically care for a child, plus our age is not on our side for childbearing.

Good luck. I'm glad things are looking up. Compromise is very good. My husband and I are able to compromise about everything.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Agreed, I am asking for a lot. But if you don't ask you will never get. 

I also see this as a bit of a negotiation. There is something she really wants and there is something I really want. This time she will need to give me mine first. 

Did I say I am going through a very selfish stage . I actually like it and don't feel the least bit guilty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

My H (aka "Monk") had a few ideas:

1. Does W know how OCD she is? Does she know how it affects you? 

2. She should see a psychiatrist... there are meds for this. (He's used them, they aren't forever and don't have crappy side effects)

3. There are quizzes online for OCD. They tell you if it fits (in case she doesn't know) and how severe it could be. 

4. She's compulsive, she can't help it.... without getting help. And YOU can't fix her. If she won't get help, then there is nothing you can do. Well, you either learn how to cope or leave. Both those choices suck, but you can't make her get help.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

SunnyT said:


> My H (aka "Monk") had a few ideas:
> 
> 1. Does W know how OCD she is? Does she know how it affects you?
> 
> ...


Thanks! It is great to hear from someon who understands and is willing to help. My wife loved Monk 

She knows she has OCD. She saw a psychiatrist after we got married. She was on Luvox, it zapped her sex drive and turned her into a zombie. She stopped both after a year. 

She has done the workbooks and is now convinced that she can manage on her own. To her the drugs do more harm than good and the doctors won't be able to tell her anything she does not already know. 

I am willing to giver her an ultimatum of trying the docs again or divorce if that is what it takes. 

The irony is that it is so much more under control today than before,mat least at the surface. Where it is still impact us is at more of a subconscious level. I think it impacts the little things which I am becoming more perceptive of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

hubby said:


> Agreed, I am asking for a lot. But if you don't ask you will never get.
> 
> I also see this as a bit of a negotiation. There is something she really wants and there is something I really want. This time she will need to give me mine first.
> 
> ...


Please don't use a baby as a negotiating tool. That would not go well for either of you. You want creative, energetic sex every other day with four kids??? Your wife would have to get through a pregnancy, childbirth, and months of sleep deprivation with a newborn. If she is anything like me (or most of my friends with new babies) "creative SLEEP" will be at the top of her list. Maybe your wife is more energetic than I am.

I am not trying to discourage you from having another child. I have four kids, and I wouldn't have it any other way. But I would feel completely overwhelmed and bewildered if I received a letter like that from my husband. Sex is a priority for us, but that is because we both understand each other's needs. And we also both understand that we have four children that constantly require our attention and that we have to care for. 

If your wife is desperate for another child, she will probably try to meet your needs as outlined in the letter. But she will only be able to maintain your requests for so long. There is really only so much that one person can do (especially a mom of four children). If you want another child with your wife, have one. But don't agree to it because she agrees that she will somehow give you more spontaneous, creative sex.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Thanks momtwo4, I think you said better than I the message I wanted to convey based on my experience.

Sex should be its own thing and not tied to other things because it's so based on attraction, and holding other things hostage is only a recipe for resentment.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

WillK said:


> Thanks momtwo4, I think you said better than I the message I wanted to convey based on my experience.
> 
> Sex should be its own thing and not tied to other things because it's so based on attraction, and holding other things hostage is only a recipe for resentment.


As a woman... that deep sexuality, being able to initiate, wear sexy clothes, do all the things you so want from your wife, can be simply a matter of being comfortable and trusting in your partner. 

At this point, she isn't even able to relax enough to orgasm, and you can't even initiate because it makes her uncomfortable.

Would it be fair to say that at this point... she's having sex a few times a week out of obligation? It sounds that way.

IMO, telling her it's okay to be your own personal dirty xxx whatever, would be a HUGE mistake. That might be JUST what she is afraid of, right now. 
If she has NEVER had full blown multi orgasmic sex with you, and talked dirty to YOU... she's not comfortable.

A woman's mind.
Fear of being used for sex.
Fear of being left alone pregnant, or with kids.
If I don't put out, he will leave me.
If I go along with something I don't feel comfortable with, will it escalate to something else? 

All said, it's what you want. And there is nothing wrong with that. But if you word it as a goal for the future, a wish list, not a MUST DO, you might get a more honest response.

She may laugh at the sex part of it. She may tell you to get a hooker. Just sayin. Her mind is on having another baby. She's in mommy mode. Keep that in mind. Mom's don't behave that way.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks Dee and Mom2. Good feedback.

I totally understand that intimacy may slow down during pregnancy and the first year or so. 

What I am really trying to do here is see if we can even get to a level of intimacy that I need. Our relationship is the strongest it has ever been right now. We have less to worry about now (finances, job security, etc) and she is more in touch with her sexuality than she has ever been. So if we cant make it happen now then I don't think we ever will. If we can make it happen now, then I have faith we can get there again after things settle down with #4.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I was thinking, another alternative to this which may work is just taking action without the note. I just start being more sexually assertive and making it happen without giving her a list of requests. That would at least build a bit more attraction if she is receptive. Then if it does not work I lay it all out in a discussion/note. 

I know that she has it in her. Just a few weeks ago we were on vacation and visited a palace in Europe that had huge, secluded gardens. There was a cave like area in the back and I took advantage of the opportunity. Panties were off, hands were all over the place and my jeans unzipped for the warm up...but we heard some people talking nearby so we stopped, at that point we had just enough time to collect ourselves and get back to the tour bus before it left us. I am sure if we had more time it would have gotten very interesting. We were so affectionate on the vacation we were known as the honeymoon couple by the others on the tour even though we have been married 15 years. She brought day up a few times since.

Same goes with the respect issue, I can choose to just stop being involved in her rituals and make sure I speak my mind when I am disrespected. 

It might be a bit easier for her to deal with as she will see specific examples of what I need in action and it will not be such a big pill to swallow at once.

Maybe writing it all down was just a good exercise of self-exploration.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Fire in the hole!

I decided to go with a simpler and more philosophical note. This gives her more perspective on where I am coming from and my intentions. It also gives her time to think outside the box on what changes are needed without limiting it to a list. Hopefully this will instigate some healthy discussion.

I woke up a little early this morning and had some time to think about this with a clear head. One thing is for sure, I know what I want and I have a lot of determination to make sure I live a fulfilling life.

--------------------------------------------------
Good morning babe,

I have been doing a lot of soul searching the last month and the vacation really helped clear my mind as well. Thinking about the man I am, the man I want to be and how I envision a fulfilled relationship. I am ready to make a transformation in our marriage with you. Ironically I think our relationship is the strongest it has ever been and that is exactly what has enabled me to see clearer than I ever have. I also think that we are both the strongest we have ever been as individuals which will help us to have the courage and determination see this change through. That said, we can always seek the help of counselors (individually or as a couple) if that is what is needed. 

I am certain of the areas that I need to change in our relationship and I encourage you to think and communicate what you need. I am hopeful that you will see this as a positive step so we can work together.

For me, I have two areas of focus in our relationship: respect and sexual fulfillment. At the basic levels these are my goals:
*Respect *- Complete and open honesty and trust with each other. Respect each others needs, desires and boundaries. Leadership and empowerment. 
*Sexual fulfillment* - Uninhibited expression (verbally/physically) and dedication of our best ability to fulfilling our deepest and core sexual desires.​
I will give you some time to digest, let me know when you are ready to discuss. 

I love you always and forever,


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Well that flew like a lead brick. She quickly wanted to know exactly what I needed (specifically listed) as it was giving her too much anxiety to wait. 

She felt defeated and that she has already been giving me so much of herself the last few years (before that it was just plain sexless). She feels happiness on the surface with a deep layer of a lack of security or foundation.

This was the first time I felt that she actually rationalized that she could not change anymore and that we may be better off apart. I would fight like hell to make this work, but if we go our own ways I could accept that.

I am looking for counselors now. Unfortunately I am no longer a very patient man and look for results quickly. 

I am not sure how this will play out but I know I will be a happier man a year from now either way.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

hubby said:


> I know, it is crazy. At first I rationalized it as better than nothing, but now I know I deserve better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can I ask why she will only have sex in the closet?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I think she does not want to get the sheets dirty and the bed makes her too hot. She is in perfect physical health...not like she has a sweating issue.

I don't think we have EVER had sex in the bed. We had a sexless marriage since we moved into the house and when we started having sex again it was always in the closet. Maybe we did it once in the bed and maybe once in the living room.

Depressing...


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Good luck.

I understand that sex is important to you, but it really seems like that is all you are focusing on at the moment. I'd be really ticked off if my husband pursued me this much about sex and my drive is higher then his. I know how frustrated it can be. Sex really consumes the mind when the drive is so high. I would of never known if I wasn't going through it myself.

My husband is constantly meeting my needs. He has always put me first. It's been this way since the day we met 13 years ago. In return, I must do the same for him. Including not pushing or over pursuing him in the sex department. I told him what I needed, but his stress level is pretty high right now with his career and volunteer activities. My husband has always been involved in the community raising money for different facilities. So, I will wait. I will be patient.

It sounds like you need an answer now and are rushing things. Maybe you've waited long enough. I really don't know. Like I said before, good luck.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

Oh really? how about throwing a towel down on the bed, doesn't matter then if she gets hot and sweaty? Sex IMO is supposed to be messy, thats part of the fun for me, we were just laughing the other night about a wet patch that happned and who was responsible for it, lol.

Have you tried having sex in the shower/bathroom with her? Do you think that you've both just got into a habit of having it in the closet?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Star said:


> Oh really? how about throwing a towel down on the bed, doesn't matter then if she gets hot and sweaty? Sex IMO is supposed to be messy, thats part of the fun for me, we were just laughing the other night about a wet patch that happned and who was responsible for it, lol.
> 
> Have you tried having sex in the shower/bathroom with her? Do you think that you've both just got into a habit of having it in the closet?


We have done the towel thing when we are on vacation in hotels. I hate that though. It is not like she is squirting all over the place or sweating like pigs.

Not much going on in the shower/bathroom.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> It sounds like you need an answer now and are rushing things. Maybe you've waited long enough. I really don't know. Like I said before, good luck.


Thanks IILWMH. 

I would say my patience is gone. I think only having sex with my wife a handful of times the first 11 years of marriage may have done some permanent damage.


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## OneLoveXo (Jun 5, 2012)

I think it's a pretty good letter, if I go it I would not be upset, but it would be a reminder for me to not forget about my SO needs and my own.

As for spicing up your sex life, you should do what I did. I googled all the different types of fetishes that are out there (everything I could think off). I printed copy for my bf and one for myself, we each went over it highlting it in blue if it's something I would like to try/something I want to so (and/or also watch in porn so we can act it out). Using that same list we marked it with letter P if it's something we only want to watch (not act out) from porn. When we are done filling out we compare our lists, there are some things I didn't mark off on my list that I would mind trying, plus gives you a great idea on what your partner is REALLY into, but remember there can be no judjments and both of you have to be honest.

I also made a list of BDSM, huge long list. Each of us has different copy, again we over it and heighlighted those we want to do/try, and starred those that we REALLY BADLY want to try. Than we compare the lists, it's amazing how much oyu find out you have in common, sometimes you just forget things or too embarrased to share them; but making a list gives you all the posibilities, you don't have to act out on all of them, but many you both will enjoy.

Also I suggest making a check off list or role play idease you can find on internet, don't delete any, list them all, you never know what she might be into. I did this with my bf, each of us checked off which role plays we would like to try and than we compared lists.

Also you can make other lists, or questions you have for her. Every couple months my bf and I each fill out a Q&A I put together. It asks what you can do differently to please your partner; What new things you want to try or do. What can you do to please your partner emotionally? Is there anything you stop/change to make things better. We had about 15 questions on ours, so we do it every 3-4 months to make sure both of our needs are met. Its ALWAYS easier to ask and answer on paper, cause you don't have to see their expression, so there is no pre-judgment, just honesty.

I also suggest making a list of different things you can do for dates, google it, you will find millions of idease. Print those out, and every week or twice a week pick a date idea from that list and schedule it (so you don't cancel it).

Sometimes it takes scheduling to put things in motion. My bf and I often schedule our sex exploration days, or days we do anal or BDSM, etc. Sometimes when you don't put it on schedule (and promuise to stick to it) you often will over look it or forget to do it b/c you are so bussy or w/e.

So first find out exactly what her need and your needs are. Having those filled out papers also gives you something to go back to, one week she can pick something of your list, and another week u pick something of her list. And schedule your quality time, sometimes it's just necessary, and isn't any less romantic, in fact it gives me something to look forward to 

Wish you best of luck 
Through the months things change, sometimes you need something more off or less of.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The reason she treats you disrespectfully is that you let her. 
At least one major contributor to your lacking sex life is that she doesn't respect you because you don't demand it

The OCD checking thing - her comfort correcting you so often - is a respect thing.
This was all over the map
No matter what I will love you forever 
There was a semi threatening or at least ambiguous comment about marital viability. 
Not sure about having another child with me







hubby said:


> Hey there peeps. I have not posted in a while, mainly because things have been getting better. However, I think we have gotten to a spot where we have stopped improving our relationship and there are still the same fundamental issues we need to work on.
> 
> I continue to do a lot of soul searching on what I really want in life and I am learning a lot about what I need and deserve. I feel I need to challenge my wife to change/progress, usually with success. we are to the point we need a baseline our expectations.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the ideas OneLove, I will try that.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

hubby said:


> Thanks IILWMH.
> 
> I would say my patience is gone. I think only having sex with my wife a handful of times the first 11 years of marriage may have done some permanent damage.


Well, I didn't realize it was this sparse. You married a very LD woman. Unless she wants to make the change herself, it's not going to happen. No wonder why you are fed up. 

I do know going from nothing to every other day is too big of a jump. She will most likely not be able to. 2-3 times a week is more realistic.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Well, I didn't realize it was this sparse. You married a very LD woman. Unless she wants to make the change herself, it's not going to happen. No wonder why you are fed up.
> 
> I do know going from nothing to every other day is too big of a jump. She will most likely not be able to. 2-3 times a week is more realistic.


It is better now. I had to threaten walking out at the 11 year mark. It is up to about 2 times a week now. However, it always seems like it is a favor or gift to me. She even asks me to thank her sometimes...pretty big blow to the ego. She does not want to take the time she needs to warm her up so she never has an orgasm.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Inlovewith,
You should re-read the thread. She has OCD, has aggressively pulled him into her "check to make sure everything is closed/locked/clean/in the right spot.
She is constantly correcting him on minutia - OCD plus a lack of respect
AND the sex thing - the other stuff plus sexless to sex only in the closet.

A different spin: she is very high needs but is not grateful to him for meeting those needs. And she barely acknowledges his right to have ANY needs.

Not to thread jack but: Sunday we had an intense conflict at home. I felt depriorotized, and insulted. Instead of using humor (should have) I got angry. My W - who thought what I wanted was "silly" attempted to make resolution painful. After a mix of fury and cold silence we reached a meeting of the minds. All that should have been handled with a little humor and a little guilt - because she was really not able to explain why it was ok for everyone else on a planned vacation trip should get what they want - except me. If she had said "you are asking too much" I would not have accepted that. 



UOTE=I'mInLoveWithMyHubby;878230]Good luck.

I understand that sex is important to you, but it really seems like that is all you are focusing on at the moment. I'd be really ticked off if my husband pursued me this much about sex and my drive is higher then his. I know how frustrated it can be. Sex really consumes the mind when the drive is so high. I would of never known if I wasn't going through it myself.

My husband is constantly meeting my needs. He has always put me first. It's been this way since the day we met 13 years ago. In return, I must do the same for him. Including not pushing or over pursuing him in the sex department. I told him what I needed, but his stress level is pretty high right now with his career and volunteer activities. My husband has always been involved in the community raising money for different facilities. So, I will wait. I will be patient.

It sounds like you need an answer now and are rushing things. Maybe you've waited long enough. I really don't know. Like I said before, good luck.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Now I'm seeing the bigger picture. Holy cow, really? Your wife needs to learn how to respect you. 

I can't imagine any passion in there with someone who thinks this is a duty of service rather then a passionate pleasure. 

I really don't know what to say. I can't imagine her being emotionally connected to you by her actions. Best wishes to you.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Inlovewith,
> You should re-read the thread. She has OCD, has aggressively pulled him into her "check to make sure everything is closed/locked/clean/in the right spot.
> She is constantly correcting him on minutia - OCD plus a lack of respect
> AND the sex thing - the other stuff plus sexless to sex only in the closet.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

I'm getting that now. Your right, she needs to learn respect.

My youngest daughter has an OCD. It is really tough to understand unless you've lived through it. We are doing our best to help her control it. I do hope it's not an issue as she ages. Her OCD is everything needs to be in its spot. My daughter at 9, needs everything to be spotless also.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I am trying to look up counselors and have asked her to have a few sessions with me. She still refuses to go to a marriage counselor. She feels that our communication is open enough and she knows what I need and she is trying to meet my needs. In her own words, she fears the embarrassment of a third party telling her that "she is the one with problems and I am not". She admits she has problems, but does not think a therapist will help. 

In her eyes the only option is for her to try her best to meet my needs. She has almost already admitted defeat that she cant meet them and that if she cant it is up to me to decide what I need to do. Indeed it is.


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> It is better now. I had to threaten walking out at the 11 year mark. It is up to about 2 times a week now. However, it always seems like it is a favor or gift to me. She even asks me to thank her sometimes...pretty big blow to the ego. She does not want to take the time she needs to warm her up so she never has an orgasm.


I wonder if the fact that she's not orgasming is the reason she doesn't want to have sex more often. I have not had an orgasm with my husband in many months and absolutely dread having sex with him because of it (and for other reasons).

Also, she may not want to take the time to warm up because of some unresolved anger/resentment she has towards you. I know that i need foreplay in order to orgasm from sex with my husband, but i do not feel "safe" enough with him to allow foreplay or intimate touching, therefore i don't orgasm, therefore i don't won't sex. Does that make sense lol. I'm sure he just sees it as me being frigid though...

Also, and i mean this with absolutely no harm or malice, but maybe you're not very good in bed in your wife's opinion? I know with my husband and I, i absolutely hate him trying to give me oral because he is awful at it and always has been. I would prefer to do anything, over him going down on me. The funny thing is that he thinks i just don't like receiving oral sex, and is always trying to convince me to "give it a try", but the reality i just don't like it with him. With other partners, receiving oral sex is my fave because i know its a sure fire guarantee that i"ll orgasm and it makes me feel like such a goddess to have someone interested in being so intimate with my most sensitive and private spot.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

floxie said:


> I wonder if the fact that she's not orgasming is the reason she doesn't want to have sex more often. I have not had an orgasm with my husband in many months and absolutely dread having sex with him because of it (and for other reasons).
> 
> Also, she may not want to take the time to warm up because of some unresolved anger/resentment she has towards you. I know that i need foreplay in order to orgasm from sex with my husband, but i do not feel "safe" enough with him to allow foreplay or intimate touching, therefore i don't orgasm, therefore i don't won't sex. Does that make sense lol. I'm sure he just sees it as me being frigid though...
> 
> Also, and i mean this with absolutely no harm or malice, but maybe you're not very good in bed in your wife's opinion? I know with my husband and I, i absolutely hate him trying to give me oral because he is awful at it and always has been. I would prefer to do anything, over him going down on me. The funny thing is that he thinks i just don't like receiving oral sex, and is always trying to convince me to "give it a try", but the reality i just don't like it with him. With other partners, receiving oral sex is my fave because i know its a sure fire guarantee that i"ll orgasm and it makes me feel like such a goddess to have someone interested in being so intimate with my most sensitive and private spot.


I follow both of your points. There very well may be some deep issues with me she is harboring that is holding her back. It could also be her OCD that does not let her "lose control".

On the second point, trust me I have thought about that being the issue. I have no problem asking her what feels good and I have no problem going the distance until my tongue is numb. I can get her there after about 10-15 minutes of direct and consistent pressure/movement on her clit and g-spot if she really concentrates. But most of the time "it is too much work" in her words. Also, sometimes I can get her really close but we just can't get it over the wall and she gets frustrated. I know how to tease, alternate, use my hands at the same time. I can read her body language and know when to "just keep doing that". 

Even the once or twice she has her O a month, she generally says it is too much work afterwords. It takes too long and she has to tense up so much that is just not worth it. She has told me many times that she thinks my O is much better than hers by my reactions. It only serves to relieve any frustration that would result if she did not release. She would rather not get worked up in the first place...that way no frustration and no effort.

I have read many, many pages on improving my technique and I had no problem bringing my ex's to orgasm in less time than it takes with her. There was much less baggage and a lot more heat in those relationships though.

So in your case, how would you suggest your hubby improves his technique?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Also, I am not sure if she knows if I am good in "bed" or not. No bed in the closet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> I follow both of your points. There very well may be some deep issues with me she is harboring that is holding her back. It could also be her OCD that does not let her "lose control".
> 
> On the second point, trust me I have thought about that being the issue. I have no problem asking her what feels good and I have no problem going the distance until my tongue is numb. I can get her there after about 10-15 minutes of direct and consistent pressure/movement on her clit and g-spot if she really concentrates. But most of the time "it is too much work" in her words. Also, sometimes I can get her really close but we just can't get it over the wall and she gets frustrated. I know how to tease, alternate, use my hands at the same time. I can read her body language and know when to "just keep doing that".
> 
> ...


I don't know much about ocd but i could definitely see how an obsessive personality would make it difficult for her to just relax and enjoy. Maybe it is a mixture of both resentment and the ocd? That seems plausible to me...

If it is difficult for her to achieve orgasm i can see how that would frustrate her and make her shy away from sex as well. Can you imagine putting lots of energy and effort into attempting to achieve a goal and still not being able to achieve it? Very frustrating for sure

In regards to my husband... My husband saw a lot of escorts before he and i married. And i think he picked up his techniques from them as he started seeing them at a very young age, 19 or so. I think the escorts were probably over zealous and made it seem as though the slightest touch from him sent shivers down their spine. This gave him too much confidence sexually imo. Unwarranted confidence.

He has sex with me the way he likes me to have sex with him. Rough, Aggressive, lots of positions. I like (LOVE) soft sex and to him "no one can cum from that". But slow, soft missionary does it for me like nothing else. He gives oral sex too aggressively as well, pushes his lips and face too much into my va jay jay, flat tongue up and down, fumbling hands trying to finger me at the same time. All of that just makes me feel uncomfortable, i would prefer just some gentle suckling on my clitoris and a hand teasing my nipples, soft and easy.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

So what does your DH say when you tell him how you like it Floxie?

Just discussed the counselor topic again and she said she would not do it. She was even put off when I said it was a marriage counselor that I would go to if I went alone. She would rather me go to just talk about my issues. 

Another thing that irks me is that she brings up "what about her needs". She tells me I am not meeting and I could not meet them. I beg her to list them out for me and I guarantee that I will make them happen or die trying. I would move mountains if that was one of her core needs. She will not list them for me. She tried to rattle a few very vague requests but when I asked for examples she could not give them. She then said one need is to not pressure her...how convenient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> So what does your DH say when you tell him how you like it Floxie?
> 
> Just discussed the counselor topic again and she said she would not do it. She was even put off when I said it was a marriage counselor that I would go to if I went alone. She would rather me go to just talk about my issues.
> 
> ...


I lol'ed at a "need for you not to pressure her". She sounds evasive lol. She definitely needs to see a counselor and hopefully he can help her figure out what her needs are and how to articulate them to you. I think someone women know that "something isn't right". Yet we can't quite say what it is. I wonder why she's so anti counseling?

I don't bring up how I like it with him anymore. It hurts his ego and I can tell so I just avoid that converstaion at all costs. If he atempts to do oral on me I just redirect it and offer it to him instead or say I'm feeling unclean, etc. its really hard to teach someone to be gentle and I find myself ofen fantasizing about past lovers when we are intimate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

She says she does not want to go because she knows they will just say that she will have to fix her problems. She feels that only she can fix her problems herself and anyone telling or suggesting to her what to do would be counter productive. She has major control and authority issues. 

I think she is deep down just terrified to actually face her issues head on. 

It is a moot point anyway. She won't go. Maybe if I have my foot out the door and the only way to stop me is counseling then she will do a session. Even then, she will only do one or two until she feels threatened and then she will shut down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ouch!!!!!!

That would hurt. Interesting how we get what we give. I mean your W - not you. 

You want to connect - to experience physical intimacy and sex as an expression of her love for you. I am the exact same. I love foreplay - long foreplay. I love touching my W. She is not always able to get to the rapture 
- menopause? 
- lack of raw lust for me?
- Some of both I think

But she comes to bed with a loving heart and when we finish I always say the same thing "thank you for loving me". And she replies "I looooooovvvvveeee you". 

But if she insisted on doing it in a closet, and kept it short - ugh - I would perceive it as "divorce avoidance" not a sincere expression of love. And I would not be able to say "thank you". What would I thank her for? Tolerating my touch for 10-20 minutes? Doing the minimum needed to retain her stay at home mother lifestyle? 

I guess I could say "thanks for doing the minimum needed to prevent a divorce". Not sure how that would be received. Guessing - not too well. 






hubby said:


> It is better now. I had to threaten walking out at the 11 year mark. It is up to about 2 times a week now. However, it always seems like it is a favor or gift to me. She even asks me to thank her sometimes...pretty big blow to the ego. She does not want to take the time she needs to warm her up so she never has an orgasm.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I would just leave. Seriously, your marriage sounds like hell. I don't see how you can ever expect your wife to be who you want her to be sexually, and if she won't even see anyone to try and deal with her OCD issues, then you clearly have no chance of getting her to a sex therapist. 

You want passionate, loving sex every second day. She won't even have sex with you in bed and finds having an orgasm too much work. You are asking her to change her whole personality and basic physiology. 

I think you should split up and work on being good coparents. Another child? That is insane. You might want to do some more soul searching to work out why you were attracted to such a damaged person in the first place, and why you enabled her dysfunction for so long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Howling - almost wet my pants. 

Triangulation, you:
- Got your ex's off consistently
- Are willing to put a LOT of effort into pleasing her
- Are empathetic to the frustration factor
- Are obviously committed to her emotionally 
- Have learned to read her body language, what she likes/dislikes
- Have a sense of humor about yourself - which is a big deal in this type situation
- Would a vibrator help? Just asking

The closet screams out: Sex is dirty - I don't want to "dirty the bed". This is her issue - but a kind coping mechanism would be for her to lay a blanket on the bed, have sex and throw the blanket in the laundry basket. 






hubby said:


> Also, I am not sure if she knows if I am good in "bed" or not. No bed in the closet.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Your wife is playing mind games with you. Why in the world would she tell you that you can not meet her needs??? Of course you can, your her husband. 

I'm starting to wonder why you are putting so much effort into this relationship when your not getting anywhere. Why would you be with someone you can not satisfy or fulfill them? What are her intentions in staying married to you?

I'm pretty sensitive. Luckily my husband is too. I know what I want from him and I make it clear. I don't ask for much, just time together and affection. My needs are very easy to meet. If my husband told me I could not meet his needs, I'd pack up my bags and leave. I would expect the same from him if I were to say something like that to him. Actually, I'd never treat him in that way ever. I do everything I can to make and keep him happy most days. We all have our bad days or weeks.

My husband and I do not control each other. It's wrong and it's a miserable life. I grew up with a controlling mother and my first husband tried to control my life. I'm not one to be controlled, I'm an adult and I do expect to be treated with respect. My husband is a very nice guy, and I do my best to treat him nice too. Never would I ever take advantage of him, which I do believe your wife is taking advantage of you.

Marriage should be her number one priority. If you asked her to go to MC, she should at least attempt to for your marriage. Now I fully understand why you want to be selfish. Maybe this is a wake up call for her. I do believe a person can change, but only if they want to.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

If your wife is not willing to work on her OCD issues, I don't see how your marriage will improve. Damaged people do not get better when they are enabled and coddled. I have experienced a great deal of abuse which left me with too many issues. When the problems spilled into my marriage, I sought therapy immediately. My husband would have left me if I refused to take responsibility. 

How do you think a new baby will help your sex life, when there are already so many problems in the bedroom? You already have three kids, so you know how pregnancy, birth and babies pose challenges for even the most sexual couple.

Looks like your wife is too comfortable with getting her way at all times. Tell her that the marriage will not be successful if she does not treat her OCD.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks Mem and Lryis. 

Honestly, I could stay or go right now. I am at peace with myself and that is all that matters. I laid it all on the line one last time. The ball is in her court. 

She even sent me a note saying the of we do split up that we need to be cordial about it and think of the kids and family. That actually reassured me a lot. One of my biggest fears was that she would literally go insane if we divorced. I envisioned everything from bashing me to our friends and families to us being in the 6 o'clock news as the latest murder-suicide. 

Seems like she has a few more marbles than I gave her credit for. 

I'll give it two months...9/3. If no major change by then I am gone. 

I will be drafting plan B "exit strategy" in the meantime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
Ah - sadly - you are quite practiced at this. You managed that conversation verbatim the way I would have - if ummm - I had to have that conversation. 

Kind of comical - the bit about how you should do IC - and not MC without her. 

VERY telling that she is avoiding counseling like the plague. It is almost always my observation that the "unfair" partner is adamant about avoiding MC. They fully grasp the extent to which the marriage is one sided - in their favor - and have no interest in being outed to a third party. 

As for the "not meeting her needs" - that was a sad attempt a misdirection. Not pressuring her - LMAO. Meaning: You are not allowed to have expectations of her. 

OK: Back to the catalyst. A fourth child. She may revisit that topic and claim it is a "need". She may want a fourth child simply to have a fourth child. It is also possible she wants a fourth child to "lock you in" longer. Maybe some of both. A fourth child will give her a way to justify reducing your sex life for at least a year or two. 

Do YOU want a fourth child? How can you be confident that anything she does to get you to agree, will last? Because it seems like she is focused on doing the minimum amount needed to avoid a divorce. 





hubby said:


> So what does your DH say when you tell him how you like it Floxie?
> 
> Just discussed the counselor topic again and she said she would not do it. She was even put off when I said it was a marriage counselor that I would go to if I went alone. She would rather me go to just talk about my issues.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

ImIn,
You are a good role model here. Your commitment to your marriage, your H, is a very pronounced and consistent theme in your posts. And from what I read, you are gender neutral in your comments, which is quite valuable in a place like this. 



I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Your wife is playing mind games with you. Why in the world would she tell you that you can not meet her needs??? Of course you can, your her husband.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder why you are putting so much effort into this relationship when your not getting anywhere. Why would you be with someone you can not satisfy or fulfill them? What are her intentions in staying married to you?
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Condoms put you in control. They aren't fun - but they are reliable. If she has an "accident" now and becomes pregnant - you will never know if it really was an accident. 

The first time you wear a condom - you will may get a sense of her "plans" from her reaction. 




hubby said:


> Thanks Mem and Lryis.
> 
> Honestly, I could stay or go right now. I am at peace with myself and that is all that matters. I laid it all on the line one last time. The ball is in her court.
> 
> ...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks again for the encouragement and advice guys. 

We closed the day in a better spot. First I called her on the whole "I am not meeting her needs" and she can't tell me her needs thing. She said that her needs are just constantly changing so she can not give me two or three that are her top and constant needs. She said one of her consistent needs is safety and security, again one I was not meeting at that particular time since we were literally talking about divorce logistics. Some days it would be affection, some days respect, some days security/protection, some days sex, etc. I don't necessarily buy that, I believe people have basic core believes, values and needs that don't change but daily. Over decades and life changing events, yes, but not with the wind. I will address that later. 

We then talks about my needs again, I told her that I needed to know now if she thought it was even possible for her to be the woman I need her to be. After hours of frank discussion I think we got there. She said while there might be one or two things on my list that she ultimately might not be able to meet, she gets the concept that these were just ideas and she can come up with actions on her own not on the "list" that helps satisfy the core need. We also came to and understanding that ther is a balance and trade off between the OCD management and sex. I told her if she coud be my sex freak I can tolerate other things more, that is just the ugly truth. She got it. 

We will see how it goes, will keep you posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

floxie said:


> I wonder if the fact that she's not orgasming is the reason she doesn't want to have sex more often. I have not had an orgasm with my husband in many months and absolutely dread having sex with him because of it (and for other reasons)..


Going back to the whole orgasm and sexual enjoyment from her side, this may be something that prevents us both from fully being being sexually fulfilled. Part of our discussion last night is that we need to spend more time on foreplay and exhaust every idea to help her to enjoy sex more. It even takes her about 30 minutes with a rabbit to get an orgasm. I know it only takes some women a minute with that toy. It has something to do with her ability to relax, let go of control and the chemichal/serotonin imbalance inherent with OCD. 

I did ask again if it was something wrong with my technique or approach ensuring her that my ego could handle the truth. She said no and she feels it is a blow to her ego as her inability to orgam without significant effort makes her feel sexually defective. 

I feel if we cant find a solution that has her truly enjoying sex to its fullest, neither of us will be happy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> Going back to the whole orgasm and sexual enjoyment from her side, this may be something that prevents us both from fully being being sexually fulfilled. Part of our discussion last night is that we need to spend more time on foreplay and exhaust every idea to help her to enjoy sex more. It even takes her about 30 minutes with a rabbit to get an orgasm. I know it only takes some women a minute with that toy. It has something to do with her ability to relax, let go of control and the chemichal/serotonin imbalance inherent with OCD.
> 
> I did ask again if it was something wrong with my technique or approach ensuring her that my ego could handle the truth. She said no and she feels it is a blow to her ego as her inability to orgam without significant effort makes her feel sexually defective.
> 
> ...


With my toys, it can take me up to 30 minutes sometimes as well. Particularly if I'm having a stressful day or have a lot on my mind. Does she watch porn?

Would you settle for her not neccesarily enjoying the sex, but enjoying the bonding aspect of sex instead? I feel that I am happiest when my husband is not pressuring me to "cum for him" and instead just focuses on himself. Since the sex is bad, its easier for me to just focus on his pleasure during sex, enjoy the bonding, and go masturbate later. If she was willing to "put on a good show" be engaging, playful etc, could you be happy wit that even if she wasn't neccesarily enjoying the sex?

Another thing, she is definitely not exually defective. I have read that many women are unable to orgasm at all. Orgasms may not be very important to her, kind of like how tampons are not very important to you lol. But I think if you two found a common ground where she didn't feel pressured to get satisfied/have an orgasm yet she was wiling to fulfill your sexual requests maybe you both would be happier. I do think every other day is a bit excessive honestly especially when your wife's desire is not very high. Maybe 2 or 3 times a week. That also would give her a little time between sessions to recharge.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

That is encouraging that it takes some effort with you as well. In the end it may just be a mater of taking more time, relaxing and enjoying the ride. 

Does she like porn, I don't think so. It took her a while to be OK with me watching porn. I have asked her a few times and she said she does not get off on porn. I know she looks at erotic pictures sometimes and she does a lot of reading of romantic books with very explicit sex sceens, I know that gets her going. 

As far as it being OK if she just has sex for me and "puting on a good show", no I am not OK with that. It will ultimately be a deal breaker for me if we dont figure that out. I need a parner who is enthusiastic, full of intense desire to have me and be taken by me. When I boil down this single most important basic desire in life, this is at my core. 

You may ask yourself how did I make through a sexless marriage for 11 years when this is so important to me. For some reason I felt for a person to be good they had to be a martyr, I think I developed a twisted view of religion. The more I suffered, the better person I was. My "selfish" needs were not important. 

It took me a very long time to see just how wrong I was and how much I was hurting myself and those I love. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

Well she definitely sounds sexual if she's readingb erotic lit and getting off from them, I think that's great. So she is clearly capable of enjoying sexualness. Have you read the books or looked at the photos that she likes. It may give you an idea of what turns her on and you could incorporate that into your sex lives somehow.

I can definitey see a roadblock here. Sex is priority 1 for you, and maybe priority 10 or so for her and you want her to make it priority 1 and act like it. That may not be possible for her. My husband is not a very affectionate person, I am overly so and so all I expect of him is to accept my affection, return it and not reject it. I think it would be unfair of me to tell him to be as excited about being affectionate as I am. I'm not saying you don't deserve to have a partner that thinks sex is priority 1, becase you absolutely deserve that if its important to you, just that maybe you would have to get that in another relationship possibly


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I have read them. She is very into the misunderstood bad boy theme. The guy who is very successful, a playboy with lots of sexual experience and desired by all woman, is a bit damaged in some way but has a good heart and is desperately attracted to and protective of his heroin. Think 50 shades of grey, erotic twilight fan fiction (all the goodness of the perfection that is Edward Cullen, just that he is not a virgin, far from it). They all have this theme. It is also about the newness of first lustful love. She gets board of books after the couple have sex a few times and they start to settle down. She does not like of the story speens too much time in the "happily ever after" part. She loses interest once the conflict and mystery in the story is gone. 

There have been a several stories that have BDSM and kidnapping/Stockholm themes. 

When I asked if this is something she would like to incorporate in our sex play (BDSM or role play), she says that only turns her on in books, not real life. Now that is pretty frustrating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Floxie,
I think you have hit on something that is a drop dead requirement for Hubby's marriage to succeed:
- He needs to reach a higher level of ACCEPTANCE about certain aspects of his W
AND
- She needs to demonstrate a higher level of commitment to PLEASING him

Hubby,
Very short story: My W was doing something just for me. I started feeling self conscious that it was taking me so long to come. And that was the end - I could not get there. And it felt bad. 

A LOT of the time when we connect, my W can't get there, or is sure enough she can't that she doesn't want to try. I learned long ago not to pressure, not to ask about it, just to accept it. Because THAT is how she is wired. Like you, my track record with prior sexual partners was that I could get them off easily and consistently. That was true with my W until menopause. Now - not so much anymore. 

As long as my W clearly WANTS to be there with me, I am good. And just because she doesn't O, doesn't mean I don't touch her. I does mean she does not want certain things. But she likes to be touched, kissed, etc. AND she gets that I like/want/need long foreplay. 

As for our sex life - it IS one sided. And our non-sexual life is one sided in the other direction. And that makes for two people who would both say: My core needs are being met by my spouse, because they want me to be happy. 

Get a blanket for the bed. If she wants/needs to put down two layers of blankets - so nothing leaks through to the bed - let her. But get out of the closet. 




floxie said:


> With my toys, it can take me up to 30 minutes sometimes as well. Particularly if I'm having a stressful day or have a lot on my mind. Does she watch porn?
> 
> Would you settle for her not neccesarily enjoying the sex, but enjoying the bonding aspect of sex instead? I feel that I am happiest when my husband is not pressuring me to "cum for him" and instead just focuses on himself. Since the sex is bad, its easier for me to just focus on his pleasure during sex, enjoy the bonding, and go masturbate later. If she was willing to "put on a good show" be engaging, playful etc, could you be happy wit that even if she wasn't neccesarily enjoying the sex?
> 
> Another thing, she is definitely not exually defective. I have read that many women are unable to orgasm at all. Orgasms may not be very important to her, kind of like how tampons are not very important to you lol. But I think if you two found a common ground where she didn't feel pressured to get satisfied/have an orgasm yet she was wiling to fulfill your sexual requests maybe you both would be happier. I do think every other day is a bit excessive honestly especially when your wife's desire is not very high. Maybe 2 or 3 times a week. That also would give her a little time between sessions to recharge.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

hubby said:


> As far as it being OK if she just has sex for me and "puting on a good show", no I am not OK with that. It will ultimately be a deal breaker for me if we dont figure that out. I need a parner who is enthusiastic, full of intense desire to have me and be taken by me. When I boil down this single most important basic desire in life, this is at my core.
> 
> You may ask yourself how did I make through a sexless marriage for 11 years when this is so important to me. For some reason I felt for a person to be good they had to be a martyr, I think I developed a twisted view of religion. The more I suffered, the better person I was. My "selfish" needs were not important.


I had somewhat similar feelings. There is a problem with all of the above.

For a woman to orgasm, they have to want to orgasm and be able to achieve a sufficient comfort level. When there is an expectation from the partner of the woman orgasming, that is pressure which creates discomfort (perhaps performance anxiety) and prevents the orgasm from happenning.

A wife giving her husband sex when she is not in the mood is a wonderful gift, and should be appreciated as such. When you say it is not good enough, it is a message of rejection.

In the terms of 5 love languages, I think I've had a desire to have my sexual performance validated by my wife's enjoyment - but in a way this is more of a desire for affirmation as to our sexual prowess.


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> I have read them. She is very into the misunderstood bad boy theme. The guy who is very successful, a playboy with lots of sexual experience, is a bit damaged in some way but has a good heart and is desperately attracted to and protective of his heroin. Think 50 shades of grey, erotic twilight fan fiction (all the goodness of the perfection that is Edward Cullen, just that he is not a virgin, far from it). They all have this theme. It is also about the newness of first lustful love. She gets board of books after the couple have sex a few times and they start to settle down. She does not like of they speend too much time in the "happily ever after part.". She gets board once the conflict and mystery in the story is gone.
> 
> There have been a several stories that have BDSM and kidnapping/Stockholm themes.
> 
> ...


It seems that she feels very insecure in your relqationship. Do you know why that could be? You've posted that she says she needs to feel safe/secure and the fact that she's reading books about bad boys who would die to protect their woman makes me think she' s not feeling very safe for whatever reason.

I can totally understand her only being turned on in fantasy by the books/movie. Although I love slow, soft sex, the porn I watch is relatively aggressive, a strong alpha guy and submissive woman, he dominates her and the sex is totally about him being satisfied and her pleasing him. But if my hubby ever tried being that way with me, he would receive an earful and probably wouldn't get to have sex with me for a while. I never understood why I'm like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Yeah, I get the pressuring bit Will. My wife tells me as much. I would say there is a bit of a need for affirmation on my part. I also know that her inability to fully enjoy sex holds her back from experiencing deep desire and enthusiasm. I realize this part is much out of my control. Ultimately it will be a gut check for me as to how important it is to have a desirous partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

floxie said:


> It seems that she feels very insecure in your relqationship. Do you know why that could be? You've posted that she says she needs to feel safe/secure and the fact that she's reading books about bad boys who would die to protect their woman makes me think she' s not feeling very safe for whatever reason.
> .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are probably few things that make her feel insecure:
-I have played the divorce card probably at least a dozen times in our 15 year marriage, including last night
-I have not always been the dragon slayer she lusts for. Little things like telling the guy next to her in the movie theater to shut up, *****ing at the travel company when they mess up the itenerary, taking her side in family conflicts. I took me realizing my wife is 100X more important to me than anyone else, that I really don't care what anyone else thinks about what I do when my wife wants something. I have changed this behavior. 
-There was an occurance of sexual abuse as a child 
-Much of her OCD is about safety (locks, doors, windows)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hubby,
This is what your father would say - if you were having "that" type of conversation:

Every wife is also a daughter, and every man hopes that his child will marry a man who will love and protect her. Women are complicated, never more so than when they are in a bedroom. 

When a husband conveys that his happiness in bed may be tied to his wifes internal sexual response (over which she has little direct control), and that his happiness in bed is linked to his overall commitment to the marriage, he is creating a level of pressure that has no place in a loving marriage. And that type of pressure, is also more likely than not to produce the opposite of the desired outcome. 






hubby said:


> Yeah, I get the pressuring bit Will. My wife tells me as much. I would say there is a bit of a need for affirmation on my part. I also know that her inability to fully enjoy sex holds her back from experiencing deep desire and enthusiasm. I realize this part is much out of my control. Ultimately it will be a gut check for me as to how important it is to have a desirous partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

It is complicated indeed:
-Express your desire for what you want=counterproductive
-Don't express your desire=status quo
-Ignore your desire=emptiness

Only real solution is to either hope things change naturally over time or find a partner that fulfills your desires.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

On a separate note, one thing we touched on last night was the whole BJ ending thing. Before she was totally animate that it was something she could not do. Her problem it creates a strong feeling of uncleanliness. It is not that she thinks the act is a "dirty sex act" but rather it has a connection her germ OCD issues. 

I spent a good bit of time helping her understand how good it feels to me (by way of what relative importance/trade offs of other sexual acts) and how appreciative I would be. In the end she said she understood, would try it and would make sure it happened at least on special occasions. This is very good as I know from experience that once she gets used to the idea/activity, it does not bother her anymore and she actually starts to enjoy it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> It is complicated indeed:
> -Express your desire for what you want=counterproductive
> -Don't express your desire=status quo
> -Ignore your desire=emptiness
> ...


Expressing your desires is certianly not counter productive, its just that your desire is for her to change her desire, and its unlikley that that will happen. I know that's probably frustrating.

Consider that your wife wanted you to make her period priority 1. And she was upset with you when you didn't act like it was the most important thing. She wanted you to know when it startd and ended, what brand of tampons she liked, plastic or cardboard applicator, if she needed regular or super absorbency, what she used to treat any menstrual cramps etc. If she wasn't willing to "settle" for you simply listening to her and going tampon shopping with her, you'd get frustrated pretty quickly because her period is just not that important to you.

That may be how she feels about orgasms/sex. Its just not that important to her. And there's not a whole lot she can do about that. But if she was wiling to fulfill your sexual desires, be engaging and playful, and you were willing to accept that sex/orgasms were not that important to her, then maybe you both would be happier.

Side question: why do you think that her having an ogasm is important to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## floxie (Jun 22, 2012)

hubby said:


> On a separate note, one thing we touched on last night was the whole BJ ending thing. Before she was totally animate that it was something she could not do. Her problem it creates a strong feeling of uncleanliness. It is not that she thinks the act is a "dirty sex act" but rather it has a connection her germ OCD issues.
> 
> I spent a good bit of time helping her understand how good it feels to me (by way of what relative importance/trade offs of other sexual acts) and how appreciative I would be. In the end she said she understood, would try it and would make sure it happened at least on special occasions. This is very good as I know from experience that once she gets used to the idea/activity, it does not bother her anymore and she actually starts to enjoy it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great to hear, I'm glad you two were able to come to a compromise
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

floxie said:


> .
> 
> Side question: why do you think that her having an ogasm is important to you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A few things. It was very important for my prior partners. They got frustrated if I got a little selfish and forgot to finish them off. Also, I know how powerful a carrot an orgasm is to the sex drive of woman who are able to let go of comtrol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

hubby said:


> A few things. It was very important for my prior partners. They got frustrated if I got a little selfish and forgot to finish them off. Also, I know how powerful a carrot an orgasm is to the sex drive of woman who are able to let go of comtrol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should be erasing your prior partners out of your mind and focus on your wife if this is the road your going to follow.

I'd be devastated if my husband compared me to his exes. It would make me feel very insecure if he was thinking about his past sexual relationships. I'm sure he'd feel the same way if I did this too with him. What's in the past stays there.

As a woman, I do not orgasm every time, especially if it's frequent. I do not expect my husband to finish either if he chose not to. This is not important to me. What's important is that what I'm doing is satisfying my husband at the moment. 

My husband and I are very good at communicating. We both say what is on our mind at that given moment respectfully. We both are very clear on our feelings towards each other and hold nothing back. Both of us are very good at supporting one another with our desires, goals and dreams. We always focus on the future and leave the past behind. If I didn't do this, I'd become very depressed. I had a life changing event(massive neck injury) that disabled me physically. It wasn't until my own life slowed down I realized how much effort my husband puts into our marriage. His support towards me is phenomenal. 

I do write my husband letters, but of love and appreciation. I do not ever dwell on his flaws, nor does he of mine. We all have our issues and hang ups. We both stay as positive as possible.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It's fine to express your desires, but as others have said, your main desire seems to be that she change into someone else, sexually. You don't only want her to have sex with you, you want her to desire you desperately and for sex to be something she craves and is so important to her.

That's neither reasonable or possible. 

It also sounds like you have spent 11 years apparently content with no sex, and now suddenly that's changed. That's not really fair either. And threatening divorce over and over is a ****ty thing to do, no matter how bad things are.

Reading your last post, I actually feel a lot sorrier for your wife than I did before. She may be stubborn, obsessive and ****ed up, but it's pretty clear you've been passive aggressive and emotionally abusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Another example of the emotional minefield of a LD/HD dynamic. 



Lyris said:


> It's fine to express your desires, but as others have said, your main desire seems to be that she change into someone else, sexually. You don't only want her to have sex with you, you want her to desire you desperately and for sex to be something she craves and is so important to her.
> 
> That's neither reasonable or possible.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hubby.

OK - so - at risk of talking us into a cork screw of ever diminishing radius. 

Your focus needs to be on her actions. And on how those actions reflect her willingness and ability to prioritize your needs first, in areas that really matter to YOU. 

The tricky part of this is: It is no small thing for a person to give themselves sexually to a partner, when their raw desire (lust) is low. In fact, it is a big thing. Some people are more naturally - givers - they get pleasure from giving pleasure. 

But some of this can also be learned. For example: 
Every once in a while I board the "Resentment Express". It is a little train that drives me through a countryside populated with the memories of injuries my W has done me. 
And after a brief ride, I stop the train and get off. This is a conscious choice, and I start to think about all the loving things she has done for me. And I realize that I have a choice. I can focus on the small amount of bad stuff, and by doing so discount the massive amount of good stuff, or I can look at the overall and realize how lucky I am. 

I understand you allowed your W to insist on a long period of sexlessness. And that creates a bad context. But it is best for you to own that. You let her do it. So going forward you get her to understand that your need is for her to come to bed with the mindset that this is where SHE gets to show YOU how special you are to her. And that you are happy to please her to whatever extent she wants or doesn't want. As for her showing you how much she appreciates YOU as a man you are asking specifically that she:
- go from closet to bed
- create a schedule such that she can come to bed with plenty of energy left for you 
- Radiate a vibe that means - I WANT to take my time and really make you crazily turned on: none of this "hurry up" vibe
- She needs to find a way to want to be there. If she wants to do IC - to help with that - she can. If she wants to see a sex therapist - she can. 

If you make it as fun as possible for her sans the pressure to "O", you should feel good about that. I give my W killer full body massages. I scratch her back. Like you - I wish I could do more. 

As for my W - since lust is often not her motivator - what is: She likes it that I consider her to be incredibly good in bed. She likes being close to me. She likes being a good wife. And yes - she likes me being more relaxed and happy. 

As for frequency - you need to weigh quantity vs quality. There is a frequency at which the list above will become much harder for her. No one - including your W - knows what that is yet. And it will vary a bit over time. 
Given her reading preferences, she likely wants you to be dominant/maybe aggressive in bed. You might have already played around with that piece of it in your routine. And you might just have talked to her about it enough to kill the sense of fantasy. On some of this stuff - best to just do it and see what happens. 
IMO: In tandem with this bedroom stuff, you need to be every bit as firm about her tendency to get anxious and be disrespectful to you in day to day life. That is not ok. And that DOES impact your sex life. In the short term, standing very firm might mean a few days to a week without sex. But in the longer term allowing her to interact with you that way contributes to a dynamic where HER needs matter and yours don't. 

There is a terrifying similarity between:
1. When I am angry or anxious I am not going to make the effort to control my emotions, my tone of voice and choice of words when speaking to my husband. It is just easier to be able to say what I want/vent my anger at him directly. 
AND
2. I am not going to make the effort to think about all the kind things my H does for me before bed. I am not going to have sex with him tonight even though I know he wants to, because I don't feel like it. 

Encouragement vs. Conflict:
When it comes to sex - encouragement works best for me:
With my W - me initiating a little playful activity during the day - pinning her to the wall and lightly biting her ear lobe - letting go and walking away. Or a kiss - sometimes with a dip - for fun - lets her know what I want. Often she says "tonight?" and I just nod smile and nod. Sometimes I play a little game and say flat tone "tonight - I will take whatever I want, however I want". And then go back to doing whatever I was doing in the first place. 
If I have to, I am willing to use a different phrase: Babe, I want you. 
Worst case I use: Babe, I am dying (I don't use this unless it has been a lot longer than our usual interval)
That last bit means we are in the frequency red zone. I don't say it angrily. I say it emphatically. If I stopped saying I love you to my W for 5 days - she would be very agitated. Not exactly the same thing - but the concept is valid. 
For disrespectful behavior the pattern is different for us. 
Your mileage may vary WILDLY - (YMMVW): When my W is speaking to me in a tone that is not even close to acceptable, I have a set of choices that reflect varying levels of response intensity. Part of this is that my W acknowledges that she likes a good brawl now and then. She finds fighting cathartic. That’s ok – I love her good qualities enough to try to manage this part of the puzzle. 
Responses that work for me
Low 
- Really? (said as a question - she and I have an understanding that when she is being a bltch - this is a trigger word for her to ask herself if that is really how she should be speaking to her husband)
- Easy (tone is low key - similar to really except it kind of directly requests that she ease up and is being harsh/disrespectful)
- You are getting a free "do over" on that last comment - would you like to use it now? (this is said in a friendly tone - it is intended to be light banter/humorous - so I use it when I believe she is able to grasp/respond to a humorous approach)
- Hey (said in a surprised tone - to get her to focus on me and look at me directly) Followed by body language/facial expression that asks (why are you talking to me that way?)
Medium
- I didn't understand that last comment (soft voice - means I have no idea why you think you can speak to me that way and have a good outcome)
- I am going to pretend that was an email for now (meaning I will ignore the tone and respond to the content of the words. "For now" means that this is going to get addressed later when we have time) 
- Why would you think I would be ok with THAT? (this is mainly for ludicrous requests/comments that are made without a belligerent tone) 
- Would you really be ok if I did that to you? (variant of above - though if pushed enough I am capable of taking the response to this question literally)
- You just "sucker punched me" (this is when she suddenly and without any external stimulus did something very aggressive/mean/hostile. Works best if you can somehow stay calm)
- I need you to give me a minute (this means I am to angry to respond effectively and am counting to ten - if on the phone I might say "I need to call you back". If we are physically together I might leave the room briefly. When I return I ask "now where were we?" 

High (this is for behavior that is either relentlessly repetitive despite many prior conversations - or really bad stuff) 
- We must have a bad connection, could have sworn I just heard "repeat what they said back to them". This can be a humorous way to defuse or not - depending on their response. (and the bad connection comment works just as well in person as on the phone)

A jerky partner will say "yes", or "so", or even worse "whatever". 

That one is going in your "Top 50/40/10" hits. Hits being the operative word here. After this exchange, the less you say the better. You have left the realm of the "golden rule" and are now in pure contest of wills. The more you argue in those situations, the worse the outcome. Better to just drop the temperature by killing the conversation. 

- Respond to the comment with dead silence and don't say another word until after she breaks that silence. If on the phone - after a painful period of silence you may get an irritated "hello" or "did you hear what I said?". I reply to those with "I am here", or "yep" respectively. If the silence continues I say "I need to jump" and end the call. 

- THAT wouldn't even fly as an email (this means the content was a serious problem)
The beauty of this statement is that it is a bit like a fish hook. If your partner wants to argue you are being too sensitive - whip out that smart phone, smile and say "maybe it reads better than it sounds - lets see" - as you type it in. 
In a way this sounds very aggressive, I don't see it that way. If it isn't that bad, then they have no reason to get agitated. If it WAS really bad, they should not stonewall you. I personally am not ok with someone saying "it is no big deal and then freaking out while I type it"
Because their bad behavior is not predicated on the belief that it is fair, it is based on bad habits you have tolerated. 

- And of course the ultimate gold: That is not acceptable to me (this means something very specific - use sparingly)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
None of the stuff above is worth the paper it is printed on IF you are unable to tolerate sustained conflict. Most people who can't end up teaching their partner this: I will ALWAYS try to make peace with you very quickly, so even if you treat me badly, you can get away with it because I will soon apologize for YOUR bad behavior if that is what is needed to end the conflict. 

This means that you prize peace above all else including:
- your self respect
- THEIR respect for you
- THEIR respect for the marriage (like it or not, the kids are involved in this type of dynamic - monkey see, monkey do) 
- YOUR respect for the marriage 

Why does the injured party seek to make peace with a spouse who has clearly and knowingly treated them badly? Treated them in a manner that the offending party would NOT tolerate in reverse. 
Often, this type of fighting is not about logic, fairness, or decency. It is actually about emotional stamina. If a partner learns how to key into your anxiety response they get YOU to spin yourself up into a bad state where you hemorrhage emotional energy. Not only do you feel awful "in the moment" but the longer it lasts the more exhausted you are afterwards. And that causes you to learn it is better to make peace quickly. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
So you find a response pattern - that conveys in the moment" feedback to your partner - WITHOUT getting you spun up. And you focus on things they do to TRY to get you spun up. Expect, anticipate and prepare yourself to not get wound up. 
And then you drop the temperature until they either apologize or you feel comfortable you have made your point. I do not believe escalation is a good path. I do believe that if your partner keeps doing variations on the same unacceptable stuff, you have no choice unless you are ok being a doormat. 
I also believe that if you have a partner who "doesn't believe in apologies" you can give them a choice: 
- They can accept that you are fine with that provided:
1. They understand that you are occasionally going to suggest behavioral alternatives that you strongly prefer (when X happens in the future, I really prefer that you do Y, instead of Z) , and you expect some effort to do so over time. 
2. They recognize that there will sometimes be a consequence for their behavior. And that fighting you on the consequence, or trying to pretend they did nothing wrong means they do not respect you. 
The classic version of this is a HD/LD dynamic that is just as scary as it is simple. 
Low drive spouse (LDS)
High drive spouse (HDS)
LDS: Does something really wrong, refuses to admit it, tries to blame shift and ultimately says "you are too sensitive"
HDS: Reduces communication, stops doing nice extras for a few days
LDS: Invokes the self righteous posture of: I am angry at you because you are angry at me. 
HDS: Returns to normal mode after 3-4 days
LDS: Proceeds to punish the HDS spouse via sexual deprivation/rejection for some period of time

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can't describe the sequence above in a structured manner. And there is a world of difference between an LDS who needs a short time (a day?) to resume relations, and an LDS who is weaponizing the sexual dynamic in order to punish the HDS for asserting their boundaries. 
While it can't be described in a formula, the HDS spouse recognizes it, if they are on the receiving end of it. 
Generally speaking, this is either caused by:
- An avoidance based sex life (LDS is constantly finding reasons to avoid sex, this is one of many)
- A means of maintaining greater control of the whole marriage




hubby said:


> It is complicated indeed:
> -Express your desire for what you want=counterproductive
> -Don't express your desire=status quo
> -Ignore your desire=emptiness
> ...






hubby said:


> A few things. It was very important for my prior partners. They got frustrated if I got a little selfish and forgot to finish them off. Also, I know how powerful a carrot an orgasm is to the sex drive of woman who are able to let go of comtrol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

*It seems that she feels very insecure in your relqationship*

She is very insecure about EVERYTHING. At least she is open to discussion, and trying to have a more MUTUAL pleasing marriage.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Good lord MEM, what kind of stuff does your wife say to you? And how often? 

I can't imagine living with someone who was evil enough to me often enough to need that kind of well-thought out, perfectly phrased, escalating flow chart of a response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
LOL - you asked

On the plus side:
- very smart - would have made an excellent lawyer
- playful 
- funny - exceptional sense of humor both giving and getting
- musical laugh is my favorite sound
- pretty and fit, casual but excellent sense of style in dress
- did I say fit - very fit
- mildly reserved - low affect (this makes the contrast in bed so hot)
- aggressive (this is good and then not so good)
- adventurous and risk taking 
- loves to read - reads about half my books
- highly skilled conversationalist
- athletic
- excellent with money
- LD - but incredible in bed - still doing clever new variations in year 23
- super affectionate 
- great design sense - the house is absolutely beautiful
- keeps a great house/bills/etc...
- painfully honest when you ask
- loves conflict and competition (if I make sure the Tiger gets a lot of emotional exercise, it is less likely to get edgy and bite me - yes she likes to bite)

Cons:
- Has a touch of BPD - maybe more than a touch. This is a bit like living with a generally well behaved tiger. The ramp from irritation to full throttle claws on your throat can be rather brief. 
- Seems to have a need to take the marriage right to the edge about once a year. Always has. I even have a name for it - precipice dancing. And I have a script for it: 
a. Turn on low affect mode 
b. Accept all the observations about why you have x,y and z flaws/faults and made mistakes that made her feel bad
c. Within a half day - to a day - she wears herself out. At which point - in a soft voice I start asking questions. Within a few hours she is apologizing and asking forgiveness. And sure - I could be a prik about this. But it doesn't feel like emotional abuse - more like temporary insanity. 
d. And then she has a few days to a week of anxiety and I just banter with her and put her at ease. 
- She does a very "light" version of crazy every 4-8 weeks (sometimes I lose my temper with those)
- And she does something mischevious once a week. But the mischief - I am so practiced at that - the cycle from start to finish is about 10 minutes and rarely raises my blood pressure.
- Has a narrow comfort zone - I call it plus or minus one degree. At 75 she is comfortable. 74 cold - 76 hot. Kind of amusing in a way.
- Has a LONG list of quirks - harmless as long as you know what they are. 
- AFTER any type BPD incident, weekly, monthly, yearly - she is fully capable of reasoned conversation and has enough self awareness and humor about herself to "get it"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I accept that our marriage is 95% great - and 5% difficult to completely crazy. At least she isn't violent when crazy. She is only playfully violent and that is ok as I have such a large strength advantage. 






Lyris said:


> Good lord MEM, what kind of stuff does your wife say to you? And how often?
> 
> I can't imagine living with someone who was evil enough to me often enough to need that kind of well-thought out, perfectly phrased, escalating flow chart of a response.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, sounds like she met her match in you. It also sounds like she needs really careful handling, for want of a better word. Doesn't that get exhausting?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
Just for clarity. My W uses sex as a means of bonding - not a means for control. She doesn't withhold to punish me. Never has. I believe she correctly realized early on that trying to use sex as a control mechanism would harm or kill the marriage. We never have sex while "in" conflict. I have never wanted to and for sure she wouldn't be willing to. But I don't believe I have ever once apologized for anything because I wanted to have sex. Every once in a while we deadlock and one of us realizes that we are both certain we are right - we have argued to a draw - and so that person makes peace even though they feel wronged. But that doesn't happen often, it only happens after a few days of limited communication, and I would say we do it about equally. Much more often we each apologize for our part in the fracas. Once it is over - it is completely over - and normal relations of all types resume. 

When I mentioned my W LIKES conflict, and sometimes NEEDS combat - I meant it. But she is sometimes killer funny about it. So at last count she was up to 6 non-apologies. 

And I am laughing as I type because I "outed" her in front of our teenage daughter last week. She came up with a "new" non-apology and I mentioned to our daughter that her mom is constantly creating new verbal constructs in a determined but ultimately futile effort to achieve total domination of the house, and it's inhabitants. 

OK - I get how this sounds. The thing is - she is REALLY clever and funny. And I am so used to her mischief and her boundary pushing that it is like a type of entertainment / game / puzzle. 





Lyris said:


> Good lord MEM, what kind of stuff does your wife say to you? And how often?
> 
> I can't imagine living with someone who was evil enough to me often enough to need that kind of well-thought out, perfectly phrased, escalating flow chart of a response.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sometimes - when she is being difficult - I feel fatigue. 

But I typically view her compulsive need to fitness test as a type of verbal/emotional wrestling match that is more entertaining than anything else. 

The way this goes is she begins a test without warning - typically this is by encroaching on one of my boundaries. The one certain way to pass is to blend calm, humor and a bit of aggressiveness into one response. 

Example. Wife wants us to ditch our land lines (2 of them) and just use our cell phones. I am very sensitive to background noise. I HATE bad telephone connections. So I love land lines and not so fond of cell phones. I told her she can kill our fax line but not our voice line. I have explained to her several times that just as she is hypersensitive to color I am that way to background noise. And FWIW - the cost of a land line is immaterial to us. 

We had 3 couples over for a holiday party. One couple mention they have no land-line and my wife immediately suggests that we follow suit and just use our cell phones. I stare at her in disbelief for just a moment and then proceed to tell the following story every word of which is true. 

We recently remodeled the bedroom and W did a wonderful job - it is beautiful - take a look after dinner. (at this point W is looking at me suspiciously). We got those Benjamin Moore sample paints - and tried a good 20 colors. I pause smiling and look at W - who just nods sheepishly. And after about 10 weeks we picked a nice gray color - partly because we were out of room on the walls to put up more sample colors. Actually she picked the color and I hesitantly said "that looks great" - because she had already changed her mind about the best color about a half dozen time and I was trying to avoid putting myself into a corner - yet again. So she asks me "Do you really like it? Tell me the truth. I reply - YES - firmly. She says - "you said that about the last 5 colors." I shrug. "Are you just saying that because you are tired of looking at sample colors?" "No" I quickly reply - "if you don't like this - do not get it." Thing is she DID like it. Well she THOUGHT she did. 

After the house painter put it on W noticed it had a hideous green tint to it - but only at night time. I had no idea it was so ugly - or that it was quickly driving her mad. So a couple nights after the painters finished, I came in to get in bed and just got hammered. I mean suddenly I could tell she was angry. Really, really angry - at ME. 

Angry because I was too stupid to realize what a total fuuking disaster the paint color was. Luckily I quickly recognized the error of my ways, and apologized for being so clueless by not recognizing "our" mistake, I said "no big deal - lets change it to what ever you want." And W looked at me dead pan - I swear to God and said - "ok baby but only if you really want to" which made me laugh so hard I almost wet the bed. 

Since we were tired of looking at paint, W decided to evaluate wall paper alternatives. Turns out there is an encyclopedia Britannica sized set of wallpaper sample books. But W went through them quickly, and picked a champ. So now we have this beautiful golden grass cloth wall paper. Really it looks great. And - hand on the bible I really do like it way more then the paint - even though the paint was fine. 

The point is that W is simply highly sensitive to color. As I am to static - on phone calls. I look down the table and say "Hey baby I have an idea - lets tear down the grass cloth - go back to that nice grey color that YOU selected. After we do that - we can switch to cell phones so we can both be miserable until you decide to put the wall paper back up. 

The guests are laughing - W is smiling and looking a bit rueful. 

This was a total test for fitness. The phone bill is a financial non issue for us. She KNOWS how I am with background noise. When the guests left she said - you were really "on" tonight - I hope you saved some energy for me. And proceeded to take me to bed and bang me senseless. 





Lyris said:


> Well, sounds like she met her match in you. It also sounds like she needs really careful handling, for want of a better word. Doesn't that get exhausting?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks for indulging my curiosity, MEM. 

Is that what people on here refer to as a "fitness test"? That is absolutely foreign to me, I don't understand it at all. What's the point of it? Why does she even care if you have landlines or not? In my house, it would be as simple as; my husband prefers the landline, it doesn't affect me in any way; end of story, thank you and goodnight. 

Anyway, I'll shut up now as this is a)none of my business and b) nothing to do with the OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Hubby,

First, I want to say how much I resented your letter. If you were my husband giving me that letter, it would be returned to you with signed divorce papers.

Secondly, I want to say I understand your frustration, and I can't believe I made it through all these 6 pages of reading. Well, I mostly just read your responses and skimmed over the rest. The only good thing I got out of it all is knowing where you are right now, mentally that is. It is a good and healthy place to be. However, I think you are wrong as can be to threaten your wife with divorce. I declare, it is some men's (even most men's) lucky stars (or blessing if you prefer) not to be married to me. I don't know how I got so lucky (or blessed if you prefer) to have met my husband. We simply don't have these kinds of problems.......and thank goodness for that. He is sexually happy (we both are), and I feel ultimately loved and respected. I worded it that way because sex is so much more often a priority to men, while women so much more often find themselves in an abusive marriage. You, on the other hand, have found yourself suffering both - lack of respect and lack of sex. Unfortunately, there is one reason for both of those. Although you are well aware of the reason, I don't believe you truly understand. You may tell us that you are well-read on the subject and well-versed in the implications. But, your actions tell me differently. You threaten to leave, yet you are aware of her security issues. How cruel to use it against her like that. Another thing, it is awful you will leave your family for sex's sake. Just awful. The children you brought into this picture mean nothing compared to your next orgasm and all your future-planned ones. 

As much as I'm sure it means to you that so many people are trying to help, I must interject here that their help will be futile, as are your threats. You say you have threatened many times, yet you reached the point where you felt you had to threaten again......AND, here you are again threatening. Will you soon, or ever, get the message that it doesn't work? Well, except for you to get a couple more orgasms until the affect wanes again. Still, it is a very cruel tool.

The point I'm getting to is to let you know that no advice from others and no amount of forcing, demanding, and threatening from you will change, fix, or transpose your wife. It may be ridiculous to you that she refuses marriage counseling, but she's right that not even they can change, fix, or transpose her. Therefore, her reasons for not going are legitmate. She doesn't want to be told what she already knows and is powerless to fix, and she doesn't want to be told what she already knows by people/doctors/counselors/etc. who are also powerless to help her.....because help for her condition does not come in the form of being told of the condition or talking about it.

I have an older sister who is paranoid/schizophrenic. Shortly after the evidence of initial onset became known, I asked a psychiatrist why it was not possible to talk to her, why it was not possible to make her see the logic. What he told me was that you cannot talk to or reason with a person who suffers a mental condition. They need medication, and that is the only thing that can help. This is the reason I know you have not absorbed the gravity of her condition. You would know that no advice, no letter, and no demands will get you very far with her. Certainly not on any long-term basis. Do you finally understand now?

I know you said your wife didn't like the medication and I understand why. Perhaps that means she will need to try a different medication and keep trying different ones and different dosages until she finds one tolerable with the least side effects. Unfortunately again though, the medications will always have an affect on her sex drive to some extent. So, you still won't get what you want, the way you want it, as often as you want it. But, this is the woman you married. And, this is the woman you will abandon for the sake of getting sex. This is the woman with whom you brought children that you will also abandon for sex. ??????

As I stated, you are in a good place mentally. It's a place you should have always been. But, whose fault is it that you weren't? At this point, you have created something and committed to it. There are lots of circumstances where I think people should divorce. Lots where I cannot figure out for the life of me why they don't have the good sense to leave. This situation is not one of them. Your children deserve better than that. They deserve a father who does not abandon his commitments just because he's horny. Frankly, this is even more than that because you admit things are better and sex is more frequent. It's just not all that you want it to be. They deserve a father who doesn't leave his ill wife. Life with her as you describe it is not so terrible. Of course, you must extract yourself and disengage from her rituals, but that's on you to do. You found a way (by threatening divorce) to temporarily control her on many occasions. You can find a way to relieve yourself of her neurosis. She will simply have to suffer that alone and not inflict her neurosis on you.

I'm not saying you should martyr yourself for the sake of her illness or for your children. I know you have this basic need like everyone else. I realize everyone needs to feel loved and needs passion in their sex life. I'm saying there may be other alternatives. One alternative is to consider outside help (if you know what I mean), just not as a threat. Sounds undesirable no doubt but may be worth discussing. Another alternative just might be some kind of herbal remedy to pharmaceuticals. They'd certainly have fewer adverse side affects. Particularly since her frequent inability to orgasm is directly related to her anxiety (unable to relax) and her anxiety is the cause of her disorder, you have that as your criteria for research - "herbal remedies for anxiety," or "herbal remedies for OCD". It's a win-win scenario because they'd like increase her libibo. I would begin reading and talking with a holistic practitioner.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

River,
If it gets to that point, I think your suggestion that they consider "outsourcing" this need in a controlled (paid for?) way, might be worth considering. Though - considering how aggressively she pressed him not to look at porn - EVEN when they were sexless - I would love to video tape that conversation. 

I do think that he only touched on the bit about the disrespectful way she interacts with him outside the bedroom? As a high functioning person with OCD - that is a choice she makes. 

I agree that her OCD makes sex less enjoyable for her - maybe it even makes her anxious in some ways (germs?). I also believe she has a choice to make in how she approaches it. And the main factor in that choice is some flavor of this: Outside the bedroom, for a lot of reasons including my condition, it is mostly ALL ABOUT ME. Inside the bedroom, I need to make it ALL ABOUT HIM. This is about being a loving partner. 

As for the initial catalyst - as the primary/sole breadwinner she is asking him to take on a huge additional financial commitment. Most/ALL that stress will fall on him. 

And I will add that he had no real boundaries for most of their first decade together. She "couldn't" do this or that - until he said the marriage was over if that were the case. Suddenly she could do lots of stuff. 

She had rules for him that didn't apply to her. So - yes - she has OCD. She is also capable of treating him very poorly if she can do so without consequence. 

Personally I think he is crazy to even consider a fourth child anytime in the near future but that is just me. 





River1977 said:


> Hubby,
> 
> First, I want to say how much I resented your letter. If you were my husband giving me that letter, it would be returned to you with signed divorce papers.
> 
> ...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Good post River, I always appreciate seeing a different perspective.

It turns out that the letter served its purpose and instigated deeper discussions/communication. I know that my needs are clearly understood and she is committed to meeting them so I am more optimistic now about our relationship than I ever have been. 

I do realize that I have threatened divorce too many times in our relationship, contributing to her insecurity. At those times I really was feeling very close to leaving the relationship as I felt that we were just not a good fit for each other. It was my responsibility to communicate that feeling and to give her the opportunity to discuss how to address it. I am now to the point that I know I need to make a decision and stick with it. The next two months will bear greatly on that decision.

She has flat out refused to go to marriage counseling, OCD counseling or take an medication. She has drew the line there firmly the other night. I need to accept that and make it part of my decision.

She refuses to communicate what her core needs are. Either they really do change daily, she does not know what they are, or she is afraid that if she tells me them and I meet them that she will feel even more guilty about not meeting mine.

I love my boys dearly and will be the best father that I can be for them. That means setting a good example of how a man should behave, how they should respect and be respected by others and how they should not settle for anything but what is the very best for them. I have two goals in life: 1) make sure my partner and I live the most fulfilling life we can (for me that is a fulfilling romantic relationship) and 2) give my boys all the tools they have to do the same. If I accept anything less than being fully respected and loved, I am setting a poor example for my kids. I have learned a lot in my first decade of marriage and I will do ANYTHING to make sure my kids do not go through that and learn from my mistakes. If my decision is to leave the relationship, it will mean that ultimately leaving would lead to a better life for my children. I would still support, love and care for them just as I do today. I would also be teaching them about love and respect and being a man.

On the "outsourcing", I assume you mean some sort of open marriage. My wife would never go for that. Like Mem said, she was not even OK with me watching porn when she withheld sex for years. I don't think I would be OK with it even if she was. It might work for a short time but I am sure I would just end up finding someone I fell in love with that I would want to devote all my energy to.

Good idea on looking for alternate remedies/treatments for OCD, I will do some searching. I sincerely hope that some day she will be open to trying different options in this regard.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
I think you have lost site of something: Your CURRENT situation is at best borderline acceptable to you. A lack of CORE respect drives: 
- Her deprioritizing you sexually (which makes you tense) - in terms of frequency and quality (location, lack of foreplay, etc)
- Her dysfunctional controlling behavior where she is "sharply" correcting you on how you do stuff around the house

Compounding this: The lack of sex makes you tense - which means when she is controlling in a sharp/harsh way you either suck it up - which leaves you resentful and lowers her respect or you get aggressively angry - which lowers her respect for you AND disrupts your already impaired sex life

All of this makes you resentful - but you don't know how to manage her. I wasn't thread jacking before. My behavioral response pattern is effective with this type of person. Yours is to let resentment grow until you threaten a divorce. 

Your desire to have a decent sex life and her desire to have a fourth child are DIRECTLY IN CONFLICT. Why not try being firm for a change - instead of threatening. 

Tell her that a 4th child is off the table until you say otherwise. Switch to condoms and don't budge. And in the meantime:
- Get out of the closet
- Directly tell her that she needs to WRITE DOWN detailed instructions on how she wants stuff done - stuff that you sometimes do. And if you are OK with the directions you will follow them. However, if she doesn't like how something is being done - she can either be silent or TAKE ON responsibility for doing whatever it is herself. And if the directions are ludicrous - either not clear - or impossible - just laugh and let her know she can take on that responsibility going forward. 

The fact that you are simultaneously entertaining the idea of a 4th child WHILE actively considering a divorce is testament to how conflicted you are. 

Be assertive - about the 4th - about her controlling behavior AND about your sex life. If she can't deal - part friends. Stop giving her massively conflicting messages like: We can have a 4th if I don't decide to dump you. 





hubby said:


> Good post River, I always appreciate seeing a different perspective.
> 
> It turns out that the letter served its purpose and instigated deeper discussions/communication. I know that my needs are clearly understood and she is committed to meeting them so I am more optimistic now about our relationship than I ever have been.
> 
> ...


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Update: 

Sex three days in a row (including the night of the bug talk) with a lot of enthusiasm. Once was in the bed and other two in the closet. Working on ways that make her fell more comfortable in the bed. Turns out it is a combination of getting the bed dirty and the shaking bed making her dizzy. We'll figure it out. I will probably get a dedicated "sex blanket" or something.

On the respect/control/OCD side, that is improving a lot too. We have ct my involvement down about 90%. I have thanked her for her hard work, let her know how appreciative I am but also tell her how I honestly feel during the remaining time I do get involved. This helps me feel less resentful and also let's her know where I stand. 

I am hopeful. I am going to see how things improve over the next two months befor we even discuss the possibility of a another baby. 

Mem, I do appreciate your feedback. Know that I have been quite a bit more assertive and clear with my feelings and intentions the last few months. I have learned to control my temper when my wife uses emotional communication vs logical communication. I still have a lot of learning to do but we are both moving in the right direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
I sincerely wish you luck. You are "in the woods" so you see only the "trees", as I view the forest, it looks very different to me. You have been here before. After almost a decade of being ignored, you drew a line in the sand. Still your wife ignored you. It wasn't until two of her female friends told her that they would sleep with you if she didn't - that she stepped up. And yes - she really stepped up. You were posting about your daily frequency back in 2010. And between then and now things steadily regressed. 

The forest is you holding the marriage and possibility of child 4 in your hands. The forest is a wife who for such a long time rejected you, told you she wouldn't tolerate porn - while she viewed her own type of porn and used her rabbit. And yet you fear to hold off on a child for more than 2 months. The reason your wife treats you badly is that you are unable to assert yourself. Go get some IC. Print your posts from here - a sample spread over time. Because until you gain control of your emotions, and learn to understand what YOU need to do in order to have an equal say in the marriage, this is going to be a short lived honeymoon. 

And I need to emphasize something: I do NOT think your wife is a bad person. I simply believe that you have not learned how to prevent her from controlling your emotional state, and through that your behavior. I expect you will discover she is NOT happy about it if you do IC. She likes being in control. Who wouldn't? You say you want to find out if your W is committed to YOU? Not your paycheck. Not her lifestyle - YOU. And yet here you are, already having agreed to a timescale that shows just how one sided the relationship is.

The stuff she does to make you angry, and then anxious, leaving you feeling drained, has a very pronounced pattern to it. Learn the pattern. Condition yourself to react in a controlled manner. This is the emotional gym - same concept - different muscles. Without that, you will be back here in 2 years, losing your mind back like you were in 05,06,07,08,09...








hubby said:


> Update:
> 
> Sex three days in a row (including the night of the bug talk) with a lot of enthusiasm. Once was in the bed and other two in the closet. Working on ways that make her fell more comfortable in the bed. Turns out it is a combination of getting the bed dirty and the shaking bed making her dizzy. We'll figure it out. I will probably get a dedicated "sex blanket" or something.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

hubby said:


> Update:
> 
> Sex three days in a row (including the night of the bug talk) with a lot of enthusiasm. Once was in the bed and other two in the closet. Working on ways that make her fell more comfortable in the bed. Turns out it is a combination of getting the bed dirty and the shaking bed making her dizzy. We'll figure it out. I will probably get a dedicated "sex blanket" or something.
> 
> ...


I hate to say this but I am the only thinking that she has had sex the last three nights probably because of fear of losing you? I don’t mean to put a downer on you but people do not change overnight and I’d say that you are experiencing her knee jerk reaction to your talk/note as perhaps she feels threatened or insecure by what was said and that she now feels she has to do X,Y,Z straight away or face consequences so I’m not convinced the sex is out of true desire but out of fear/pressure.

You also mention that her OCD/respect/control is improving? That sure is quick too, I’d be suspicious at fast changes in a short space of time but that’s just me and if I were you I’d leave it nearer 6+ months before having the additional kid talk because if she has truly changed her ways I think you’d have a better idea if it was the real deal after this length of time.

Don’t get me wrong I wish you both the best but just remain grounded and don’t get too excited at overnight changes that’s all I’m saying.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

I agree Star, she changed quicker than I even expected. Still some work to do but huge progress.

The initial change is the hard part from her end. The hard part on my end will be consistent communication from my end to keep it at this level and keep the relationship strong.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Not being intimate with your spouse is a form of abandonment too, River1977. People leave marriages over sex because it is more important that others care to admit. It looks like you think the OP is terrible for placing importance on sex. Why should his wife get all the understanding while he gets nothing? Isn't marriage supposed to be a two way street? Don't you think she is using lack of sex to control him as well?

On TAM, most members take the side of the LD spouse when someone posts about sexual problems. It is not all about one partner. The OP's needs are important too and shaming him for wanting to leave over sex solves nothing. 

An open marriage rarely works in the best of circumstances. I don't think someone with untreated mental illness could handle a situation like that.


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

dm661 said:


> Again, I'm highly cynical and skeptical for you, only based on mine and many friends' experiences in life.
> 
> If I were you, I'd either take it when it's offered (because you'll be sorely disappointed when she rejects you otherwise and you'll build a fair amount of resentment) and maintain with regular masturbation.
> 
> ...




Well that just sounds horrible... You think its oks for the wife to not keep her end of the maritial contract? Really? Because thats what it is in reality and the Nice Guy epidemic just allows this to be accepted and "just how it is". 

I dont agree. Maybe he needs to be with somone that can keep the marriage contract and fulfill his needs and she can go find someone that doesnt care about sex and everyone can live happy. Just seems to damn passive to me and is what makes marriage fall apart later. 

She has needs he must fill. Even if its washing his hands and checking locks on doors 30 times a day. He loves her and agreed toi fullfill those needs. 

He has needs she must fill. Even if its weanting sex more than once a week... She loves him and agreed to fullfill those needs. 


When needs are not met, the marriage is hurting and has a good chance of falling apart. Period


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks again for the feedback. 

Right now the goals are:

-continue on the recent improvements and make sure we don't slip back
-seek individual counseling. I am also looking into OCD support groups to see if that would be beneficial for spouses of OCD suffers. I am not going to push her to seek counseling or look into medications. I will likely reminder her of this option from time to time but it is ultimately her choice.
-I am going to continue to encourage her to communicate her needs and fantasies. I have asked her several times to let me know what her core needs are and she is pretty evasive. She has mentioned safety/security and honesty several times so that may be them. I have also asked for her to share her sexual fantasies and desires...what turns her on. I have no clue there other than my guesswork. She just says she does not have any which I find hard to accept.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

hubby said:


> Thanks again for the feedback.
> 
> Right now the goals are:
> 
> ...


Hi hubby ~

If she's not willing to go to counseling, and not really willing to discuss it, would she be willing to work together with you on some questionnaires to figure some of these things out?

This could involve using some of the tools like the Emotional Needs Questionnaire/Love Busters Questionnaire at Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice in order for you two to start communicating these needs.

There are also similar tools for sexual preferences online that can start some discussions on the sexual front: Questionnaire

Or even picking up something like the following... I picked up this book at the bookstore when I saw it a few months ago. It's just a list of questions about all sorts of topics (including sex) that can spur conversations and understanding: Amazon.com: Tell Me Honey...2000 Questions for Couples (9781451501896): Vikram Chandiramani: Books

Best wishes.


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks Enchantmant. I will check them out. 

Had a little talk with DW this afternoon. She indeed was struggling to keep up with my requests. It was not natural for her. We'll see where that takes us. 

She did try to get me wrapped up in he emotional style of communication and asked if everything is OK. I told her I don't know, it has only been three days. She asked if I was happy with the way things were before and I said no. She was not happy with the answer but it was the truth and that is one of her basic needs. 

I also tried again to coax out what her sexual desires and fantasizes are. I tried really hard this time. I pushed through the normal dismissals. However, I got the same answer, she has no desires or fantasies. She says her mind is too busy to stop and fill it with fantasies. Her mind is always busy with either what task she is doing or what tasks she needs to do. About the closest to fantasy she has is if she sees some lingerie or or sexy costume, she can imagine it being hot to wear it during sex with me. She says I already fulfill her sexual needs so she does not need to fantasize. 

This is all so confusing and dificult. I guess that is what makes life interesting. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

Another awesome day. She played out one of her fantasies with me this morning. She got in her tight little secretary outfit and it most of it stayed in the whole time. I did not realize how many mirrors we had in the bathroom either. Good times. 

That was followed up later in the afternoon by our quickest exit and entrance into the house (one of the last remaining OCD rituals). 

The outlook looks good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dm661 (Jul 1, 2012)

So it's been nearly a couple of years since the last post here and it seemed like things were progressing, any updates?


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## hubby (Aug 10, 2009)

dm661 said:


> So it's been nearly a couple of years since the last post here and it seemed like things were progressing, any updates?


Hmm, last time I updated was mid 2012. Things have only gotten better since then. Quite amazing actually. Communication and respect is at an all time high. We are having lots of fun together and make it a point to carve out a lot of 1:1 time without the kids. Traveling a lot. 

The sex life is pretty good. She takes care of me and keeps it fun. Only real issue is that I know she is doing more for me than for herself. She loves the feeling of closeness it gives us but she rarely has an orgasm. I have come to accept that.

Thanks for asking!


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## edgya1234 (Apr 10, 2014)

hubby said:


> Hmm, last time I updated was mid 2012. Things have only gotten better since then. Quite amazing actually. Communication and respect is at an all time high. We are having lots of fun together and make it a point to carve out a lot of 1:1 time without the kids. Traveling a lot.
> 
> The sex life is pretty good. She takes care of me and keeps it fun. Only real issue is that I know she is doing more for me than for herself. She loves the feeling of closeness it gives us but she rarely has an orgasm. I have come to accept that.
> 
> Thanks for asking!


Dear Hubby,

I am glad for you. However I want to tell you something. I suffer from GAD (which is a general anxiety disorder + panic attacks + depression). Anyhow I wanted to work things out for me even before I've met my husband. So counseling lasted for 4 years, different therapists. 
However what I want to say that although I enjoyed sex a lot I hardly ever had an orgasm. Until I've met my husband. So this is one of the reasons I married him Anyhow if before him I was content, with him I understood that women need a man that makes them feel totally safe and in control in order to let go. And I was also secure that he loves me for me not just my looks. You are putting a lot of effort in but maybe not in the right direction, forgive me for saying it, she might be able to feel good but keep looking for the trigger. By the way, a sex toy without a man in my bed does not do it for me either
Best of luck


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hubby did you have the 4th child that your wife wanted? 

I am happy that things have improved for you but you may be headed for trouble in the future. You mentioned that you threatened to leave her in order to get her to change in 2012. Is she under the same threat? 

I think it is important that you don't accept that she rarely orgasms. It's important that sex is high quality for her or she is not likely to remain enthusiastic no matter how much you assume that she is doing it for you. 

You said she takes care of you and makes things good for you. If that is the case then you might be running in the red. You are not giving as much as you get. 

That goes against the laws of satisfying human relationships. Have you read "His needs her needs"?

I think you should both take her lack of orgasms more seriously. Work as hard on her pleasure as you have worked on your pleasure. 

Look at it as an investment for the future. Did she tell you that her lack of orgasms was ok? 

Did you both read books on male and female sexuality, consulted a sex therapist, tried getting her to explore her body to learn how to orgasm or use a toy? 

Does she have clitoral or vaginal orgasms? How long is foreplay, how long do you last?


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## Uglee70 (Jan 2, 2009)

hubby said:


> Hey there peeps. I have not posted in a while, mainly because things have been getting better. However, I think we have gotten to a spot where we have stopped improving our relationship and there are still the same fundamental issues we need to work on.
> 
> I continue to do a lot of soul searching on what I really want in life and I am learning a lot about what I need and deserve. I feel I need to challenge my wife to change/progress, usually with success. we are to the point we need a baseline our expectations.
> 
> ...


It's just my opinion here, but it looks like you're begging her to give YOU what YOU want. Don't be surprised if she crumples it up and throws it in your face.


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## xxxooo (Apr 29, 2014)

I wish my husband would write a note to me

about sex

and read it to me

naked


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Uglee70 said:


> It's just my opinion here, but it looks like you're begging her to give YOU what YOU want. Don't be surprised if she crumples it up and throws it in your face.


*cough* Post is almost 2 years old.


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## Uglee70 (Jan 2, 2009)

GusPolinski said:


> *cough* Post is almost 2 years old.


Oh no, thats ok... I live in another time zone


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Uglee70 said:


> Oh no, thats ok... I live in another time zone


There is an update 4/14
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

This is an amazing thread, not least because it showed so many banned posters. 

There many sexless threads on TAM. Bet they would read this with great interest.

What percentage of the time does your wife orgasm?


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

I love it when there's a good update. People need to see that things can be worked out. I also appreciate a less than wonderful update so people can see the truth.

The thing I find interesting is he gives a good report that has just been improving for almost 2 years and there are still people sure it is about ready to implode!:scratchhead:


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

hubby said:


> The sex life is pretty good. She takes care of me and keeps it fun.


Still doing it in the closet?


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