# Turns out, it's much worse than a sexual problem



## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

Well I hardly know where to start, with everything that's been happening in this house since I first joined on here, and have been talking with all of you, my fellow foxhole buddies...it's a little crazy, the stuff i'm starting to see.

My husband came home this week. He'd been away for a month on a job; I did nothing but soul-search while he was away. And I'm starting to take a good hard look at things.

Someone else on here commented on how people join here writing about a certain subject, and then before you know it, the layers peel away and you see what the issues TRULY are. You ain't lyin'!

I've been so frozen in a state of confusion, not trusting my own feelings, that lately all I've been clinging to is my prayer which says, PLEASE REVEAL WHATEVER NEEDS TO BE REVEALED, AND HEAL WHATEVER NEEDS TO BE HEALED.

Well. All sorts of things are coming to the surface. In retrospect I would change the title of my original post, about 'bad in bed/no chemistry' with my husband- because I think we have much bigger problems than that. That's only a symptom. I was so baffled and lost when I first came on here that all I could think to do was start with the basest, most primal ache I was having, being sad about our sex life. But shovels-full of dirt have been lifted away since he came home and I have to rethink what might actually be going on with us.

So, I have never enjoyed sex with my husband; from the wedding night on, something was just OFF. But I loved and admired and respected him so I ignored it and/or hoped for the best. But it's only become increasingly awkward over the years, for me anyway (his level of interest, which on the Enthusiasm Scale I'd rank about 1-2) has stayed the same. And i've swung back and forth between wishing like crazy he was into me more as a person, so that he'd be into me more sexually, and not even caring any more, because the sex is so agonizingly unfulfilling. 

The fight last month before he left was the one that finally started to break my heart. It's the one I wrote about before, when I first joined on here- the one where I was just in total despair over feeling no sexual connection with him, that he never initiates anything with me and when it does happen, every month or two, he is really unenthusiastic about it and it lasts two minutes. I just don't feel close to him at all sexually, and completely unfulfilled physically, and beyond lonely emotionally. I was getting to that crossroads again, where I'm struggling to see our future, and I worked up all my nerve and went to him. I told him I missed him, that I needed him, that I ached for him, and we need to talk about it, that I feel like I'm dying inside.

For the first three minutes he was ok, calmly responding that the truth of the matter was that for him, although he finds me physically attractive and even sexy, he is "not spiritually attracted to me" and that if I was closer to God, we'd have the bond I was looking for.

I was crushed, of course, but in a weird way at least glad he was giving me a reason. (A reason I thought was completely preposterous since I'm a devoted Christian too, but at least it gave us something we could talk about.) I did start to cry, because hearing this is upsetting and confusing- and asked him to tell me what he meant, and to pinpoint what I could be doing differently. It went downhill fast from there. The shouting got louder and louder, and my crying got louder and louder, and everything I said to try to explain or defend myself just enraged him. Some of what he screamed at me:

(when i said i missed him and needed him: ) "WELL YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO NEED ME, YOU'RE ONLY SUPPOSED TO NEED GOD!!"

(when I said, i'm so lonely i dont know what to do: ) "ANYTHING YOU LACK IN THIS MARRIAGE IS BECAUSE OF YOU!!"

(when I said, you're my husband, you're the only one I can come to about this: ) "WHEN ARE YOU JUST GOING TO OWN IT, THAT YOU HAVE ISSUES WHEN IT COMES TO MEN, AND THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM, NOT MINE!"

(when I sobbed that I don't know what he means, and I don't know what to do: ) "YOU NEED TO GET YOURSELF RIGHT WITH GOD IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A FUTURE. I'VE DONE THE WORK, I'VE DONE IT ALONE (seeking God, he means- ) AND NOW IT'S YOUR TURN. THIS IS ON YOU. YOU DECIDE"

and repeatedly, at different points: "DON'T YOU PUT YOUR ISSUES ON ME. THIS IS BETWEEN YOU AND GOD".

(when I beg him to stop yelling, and I even tell him I'll receive his words better if he's not yelling: ) "YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO PUSHES ME TO THIS POINT! THIS IS BECAUSE OF YOU! YOU ARE SO PRIDEFUL AND WILLFUL AND SELF-CENTERED THAT THIS IS THE ONLY WAY I CAN GET THROUGH TO YOU!!"

My reactions through all this run the gamut; I cry of course, sometimes quietly, sometimes a full-on wail, which seems to fan the flame but I can't help it; I always try to calm him down, saying Please can we just talk like normal people, please don't yell: i beg him every time, and tell him I cant take it when he yells at me like that; other moments I get angry back and try to defend myself, I yell too just so he can hear what I'm saying... 

But by far the worst part(!) and he has always done this, and I absolutely cannot take it any more- I start a sentence and I get about three words in and he SCREAMS OVER TOP OF ME finishing the sentence for me with what he THINKS I was going to say- and he's not even close half the time!- and I shout PLEASE LET ME TALK! YOU HAVE TO LET ME TALK! and he just goes ballistic, screaming, "I ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY AND IT'S BULL****/A LIE/I DON'T EVEN NEED TO HEAR IT!" (Take your pick, he alternates between the three - every argument, for years.) He will not stop doing this no matter how many times I beg him and say, 'I deserve to be heard too, please let me have a voice'. makes no difference.

I am clearly an idiot, or just very determined to save us- I tried again a few nights ago to talk about this again, again very gently and non-confrontational, but you can imagine right where it went, Except this time I came right out and told him the stakes were very high- that i dont know if i can do this any more- and all that did was make him more immovable than ever that everything is on me, and that if he has to lose me he will, if that's what it takes to save me. whaaaaaat 

No sleep that night. my eyes were so swollen from crying I looked like I'd gone two rounds with Mike Tyson and yet the tears kept coming. THIS ISNT RIGHT, THIS ISN'T NORMAL, I kept telling myself. So the sad desperate online search began, I was so desperate for answers or advice. It yielded some revelations, by the time it was all over, like this-

"most women don't take to a (verbal) abuser, sexually, once he shows his controlling side. Most who are abused are too traumatized to regain the level of trust necessary for physical intimacy."

OMG. Is this what's been happening???

I'm thinking back to everything he has said to me over the years. Sometimes in exact words, a lot of the time through repeated themes…That I'm not spiritual enough, that I'm 'not capable of making good decisions', that he 'knows me better than I know myself', and her;s what I am/what I'm not...that I need to believe everything he says because he's here to protect me, and that he only speaks the truth. I've been told during many arguments, in response to standing my ground, times that I am immature, insecure, and unstable. 

I'm so confused. How does this line up with the other half of him? He's not one of those cruel control-freak monsters who screams if dinner is burned or if his socks aren't arranged like he likes them. He takes things in stride half the time, someone can cut him off in traffic and he barely bats an eye. He thanks me for taking good care of him, He tells me how much he loves me and is thankful for me and would be lost without me. But there's something about him having to maintain control of he and I that seems to be a major trigger for him. We get along ok if everything in our relationship is going his way, I'm noticing. He's really sweet and gentle and writes me beautiful love letters and buys me everything I could want, and is genuinely tender with me. Takes me for surprise romantic picnics. Remembers what all my favorite things are and brings them home to me whenever he can. THIS IS THE REAL HIM. He can totally melt my heart and not by being a snake charmer; Those other jerks are actually rotten to the core and the sweet side is the fake side- but my husband is a genuinely loving man, the part of him that isn't damaged. But… well… even in our day to day stuff, I have to admit… he makes me feel bad ALL the time, and I've questioned for years if that's what it's supposed to feel like. He snaps at me over stuff and tells me if I'm hurt, it's because I'm too sensitive. I've trusted him so much and for so long it never occurred to me that he could be wrong when he makes everything my fault, and that I end up apologizing constantly, over things he's just hurt my feelings over. Something sticky spills in the fridge that i didnt even know about, it's immediately, "What did you do??!" and he's so aggravated. At my office Christmas party last year, when I was so excited to have everyone meet him for the first time, he was so pissed because I was mistaken, I told him it was a dressy night (and half the staff showed up casual, we were dressy) that he acted like a complete ass the entire night, being stand-offish to all my friends, and to my doctor boss, and I was so mortified, and kept trying to be extra-cheery and laugh it off in front of everyone, but he insisted we leave early, and yelled at me the whole way home. And I ended up crying and apologizing like crazy .

I understand where it comes from, i really do, and it's awful. he was severely beaten by his father as a little boy and even worse, verbally tormented to a degree few of us can understand. He says he's made peace over it and forgiven his father, and he talks bout it with no bitterness so I've believed him, I've chosen to believe him.

But knowing this doesn’t make it any easier when it's turned towards me. He tells me I drive him to it. He screams until the veins in his neck are bulging out and he's hitting the walls with his fists and stomping and stabbing his finger in my face while he punctuates each point about what I need to fix or change spiritually about myself. I mentioned, not during a fight, about the emotional wounds from his father, and he agreed that I have the same effect on him that his father does. (GAHH! I don't understand how or why! His father was a monster, and I don't even nag! How are we the same?? ) But if that's how he feels then oh my goodness, what are we supposed to do?

And here's the thing, I don’t believe that every critique of me is wrong. I don't believe for a second that I'm perfect. I have a huge amount of flaws, I AM insecure, I do need help seeing clearly through my emotions sometimes, I DO want to see my issues and face them and work on them, and I AM grateful for someone who helps me not hide my head in the sand. I WANT to do better and be better. I've thanked him for helping me see things. But I find myself wishing more and more lately for a relationship where you're INSPIRED to be better, not bullied into it. I don't know if I should fight like crazy to get us both healed and healthy, or just go find someone else who maybe loves me in a whole different way. I daydream about that more and more lately. I just don't want it to always feel like this. Someone please offer guidance- marriage is hard, lord knows everyone on here knows how much work it takes. But is love supposed to feel like this? I cry all the time, wondering what it would be like to be with someone who thinks I'm great, and maybe gets a kick out of me, and wants to make passionate love to me sometimes.

I know a miracle could happen and things could change… maybe I'll become a spiritual super-star and earn my husband's admiration and sexual hunger, and maybe he'll learn to speak to me with love even when he's upset, instead of the verbal pummeling. But I'm increasingly sad thinking maybe I should just get out. I don't know. I admit I've cried every single day for the last six weeks and even though I love him more than I've ever loved any man, I'm losing my will to stay. it's hard to know if by leaving, I'd be making a terrible mistake, or saving myself. I'm just ready to be loved a different way.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Dear Tired...

Please please get yourself to a domestice abuse shelter to talk to the people there or at the very least call a domestic abuse hotline and tell them all you have written here. Please do not hesitate.

Your husband is a verbal and emotional abuser. If he is hitting walls with his fists at this point, he will be hitting you next. He shows all the classic signs of taking his abuse of you to a physical level if he hasn't already. If what you describe is accurate he sounds like he has serious mental issues. His twisted use of God and blaming you for all his problems is seriously frightening.

Please do a search on the internet or look for a book on domestic abuse and educate yourself on what it entails. You don 't deserve to be treated like this. Please be courageous and take steps to protect yourself from this man.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

Child, you are with someone who has an awful, terrible secret. And whenever you get within a country mile of that secret, all hell breaks loose. 

He does NOT like sex. This whole bit about spirituality is pure and complete misdirection. 

And I'll tell you how I know that for certain. 

He's being deliberately vague about what he needs you to do. That's so he can always claim you haven't done it.

He creates intense emotional chaos whenever you approach this topic because he cannot change the fact that he dislikes sex. 

His day to day cruelty is intended to keep some space between you. 

Your marriage is dead. The only question is whether you are going to let it drag you into the abyss...




tiredofbeingsad said:


> Well I hardly know where to start, with everything that's been happening in this house since I first joined on here, and have been talking with all of you, my fellow foxhole buddies...it's a little crazy, the stuff i'm starting to see.
> 
> My husband came home this week. He'd been away for a month on a job; I did nothing but soul-search while he was away. And I'm starting to take a good hard look at things.
> 
> ...


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I feel for you......


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## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

Have you read your own words here... a couple of times? Why do you devalue yourself so much that you allow your husband to severely mistreat you? I haven't read all your other threads..so I don't know if you are in counseling yet, but you desperately need help seeing clearly and gaining some perspective. 

Surely, as a christian you must see that this very un-Christlike behavior. You are being emotionally abused!! This is worse then physical abuse because it's confusing and there are doubts and your mind gets so fuc$&ed up you don't know what's going on. I know.. I have been there. I didn't go a year and half with my husband because he was so emotionally wretched to me and used sex as a weapon. Get out. There is life after abuse.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Have you done individual counseling? You should.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I read your other thread specifically to see what advice Youve already been given, because it seems to me your situation is really a no brainer. You've got to leave him. He is abusive. He is emotionally fractured. He has built a fortress around his fracture and installed defenses to keep even the most determined, vulnerable, and loving wife out and away. 

So I ask myself, why would she post again, here is SIM, if she has already been told her future with this man, very bleak and barren, and if she already sees the writing on the walls?

I can only think the reason why you posted another thread and brought it here is, you're not ready to swallow the truth.

I don't have any idea what will make you ready. Maybe just time? honestly, I don't want to think about what your emotional state might be by the time you're ready to go. Maybe you still have a shred of hope?

Is your husbands brand of Christianity such that he eschews therapy unless it is with another Christian? I hope not. Probably doesn't matter because I'd bet my house he would refuse to go.

Can you get yourself into therapy? How difficult would that be for you? You need to get your head on straight in order to fix this, in order to see how you might fix this, in order to see how you can't fix this.

Like everyone else has told you already...he is an abuser and he won't change. The best thing you can do is to get yourself some help so you are no longer vulnerable to his blaming shifting, excusing, and minimizing.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

It's GREAT that you realize that this pattern is the problem. Your husband is verbally abusive. My first husband had the same problem, including using God against me, and I know that I had a hard time leaving because this pattern had left me with zero self-confidence and severely depressed. What finally convinced me to leave was a therapist telling me that as my children grew up, my husband would be verbally abusive to them as well. 

You don't say if there are kids involved, but I wonder if there are, how is he with them? Either way, if you can't get yourself to leave him right now, do something for you - find yourself a therapist and / or call an abuse hotline. It's helpful to have an objective perspective because I'm sure a lot of the time you think you're making a mountain out of a mole-hill. You aren't.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I agree with the others. Your husband is acting like a monster, not a christian. Notice I say he's not necessarily a monster. beneath that facade there may be a kind loving man, but the monster comes to the surface. 

Would Jesus act like he does. I've read the gospels dozens of of times and I can assure you the answer is a resounding NO!
Shame on him for cloaking his neurosis in a spiritual put on.
If he's going to act like this at least leave God out of it. 

I agree with some of the others too that he is hiding from himself.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tired, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., strong verbal abuse, frequent temper tantrums, always being "The Victim" (i.e., blaming you for every misfortune), black-white thinking, rapid flips from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you), and lack of impulse control -- are some of the red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).



tiredofbeingsad said:


> He was severely beaten by his father as a little boy and even worse, verbally tormented to a degree few of us can understand.


Most abused children do NOT develop BPD or another personality disorder. Such abuse nonetheless GREATLY raises the risk of doing so. Moreover, when abuse is particularly severe -- as you describe -- there is a very strong association of it with BPD. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults (pub. 2008 ) found that 70% of the BPDers reported they had been abused or abandoned during childhood.

What is believed to occur is that the child's emotional development is frozen at the age of the abuse. In order to survive, the child holds on so tightly to the primitive ego defenses that he never lets go of them to acquire the more mature ego defenses the rest of us learn. Hence, when the abuse occurs before age five -- as typically happens with BPDers -- the child becomes fully reliant throughout life on those primitive ego defenses available to young children. These include projection, denial, magical thinking (e.g., I know God's true intent for you), black-white thinking (e.g., you are with me or against me), and temper tantrums -- the type of childish behaviors you are describing here.



> He screams until the veins in his neck are bulging out and he's hitting the walls with his fists and stomping and stabbing his finger in my face.


The inability to manage one's own emotions and lack of impulse control is one of the hallmarks of BPD. What you're describing is a childish temper tantrum. In BPDers, these rages typically last a few hours.

If your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), he never learned a number of important emotional skills: e.g., how to do self soothing, how to trust others, how to control his own emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts," and how to stay in the present moment instead of escaping into the past or future. In most major cities, there are excellent treatment programs for teaching those skill sets to BPDers. But, sadly, it is rare for BPDers to be willing to do the necessary therapy.



> But is love supposed to feel like this?


Yes, when you're raising a 3 or 4 year old child. He will absolutely adore Mommy when you bring out the toys but will suddenly hate Mommy when you take one of them away. Young children flip back and forth between loving and hating you because they are too emotionally immature to integrate those conflicting feelings into a cohesive perception of the whole person. Hence, if your H really does have strong BPD traits, your relationship is not that of wife/husband but, rather, parent/child.



> I've been so frozen in a state of confusion.


If you've been married to a BPDer for over ten years, consider yourself lucky if you only feel "confused." A large share of the abused spouses feel like they may be going crazy. Indeed, of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds.



> He's really sweet and gentle and writes me beautiful love letters .... THIS IS THE REAL HIM. He can totally melt my heart and not by being a snake charmer.


Yes, if he does have strong BPD traits, those feeling of love and caring are genuine (albeit in the immature way that a child is able to love).



> I'm so confused. How does this line up with the other half of him?


If you are living with a BPDer, you likely will feel like you're living with a man who flips back and forth between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you). Moreover, the flips will occur so rapidly -- often in only ten seconds -- that you will mistakenly think that YOU have done something terribly wrong because you are so certain the man truly does love you. 

The result is that caregivers like you (and me) will spend years nearly driving themselves crazy -- always convinced that, if they can only figure out what THEY are doing wrong, they can restore their spouse to that wonderful person they saw at the beginning. It therefore is common for the abused spouses to feel like they are living with a person who is half way to having a "multiple personality" disorder. 

Hence, if your H is a BPDer, what you're seeing is called "dissociation" or "splitting." Because a BPDer is so emotionally immature, he never was able to integrate the good and bad aspects of his own personality. This means that, in interpersonal relationships with loved ones, he cannot tolerate experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas. He therefore will force everyone into a black or white box so he knows how to deal with them.

This is why BPDers categorize everyone at polar extremes -- e.g., as "with me" or "against me" and as "all good" or "all bad." Moreover, a BPDer will recategorize someone -- in only ten seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based solely on a minor comment or action. Not surprisingly, BPDers usually have no long-term close friends unless they live a long distance away. But they may have many casual friends as long as those friends do not try to draw too close.



> He's not one of those cruel control-freak monsters who screams if dinner is burned or if his socks aren't arranged like he likes them. He takes things in stride half the time, someone can cut him off in traffic and he barely bats an eye.


The vast majority of BPDers can be caring and considerate all day long with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. Those people pose no threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment.



> He thanks me for taking good care of him, He tells me how much he loves me and is thankful for me and would be lost without me.... my husband is a genuinely loving man, the part of him that isn't damaged.


If he is "genuinely loving," you can rule out narcissistic PD and sociopathy (Antisocial PD). Those folks are incapable of truly loving themselves or anyone else.



> So, I have never enjoyed sex with my husband; from the wedding night on, something was just OFF.


With BPDers, their fear of engulfment is so strong that they quickly develop a feeling of being controlled and suffocated during intimacy. It therefore is common for sexual activity to go off a cliff right after the wedding, if not before.

The vast majority of BPDers, however, are able to enjoy intense, passionate sex during the infatuation period because that infatuation holds their two fears at bay, convincing them that you pose no threat to engulfment or abandonment. A typical BPDer relationship, then, is very passionate for 4 to 6 months at the beginning -- and occasionally thereafter when the BPDer starts splitting you white again.

I mention this to point out that, if your H is a BPDer, his strong aversion to sex during the honeymoon period cannot be explained by BPD alone. Instead, it would be due to some other factor. This would not be surprising, however, because nearly all BPDers also suffer from one or two co-occurring
disorders.



> He agreed that I have the same effect on him that his father does.... How are we the same??


If he is a BPDer, you and his father are "the same" in that you both are very close to him. With a BPDer, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. He has been carrying enormous hurt, anger, and shame inside from early childhood. You therefore only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of the anger and hurt that is always there deep inside. As I noted above, the vast majority of BPDers are not triggered by strangers and casual friends but, rather, by the loved ones who draw close. This is why a BPDer typically can be kind and caring all day long to complete strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him. Like his father, you pose a threat of engulfment and abandonment.

Interestingly, you've said nothing so far to suggest a fear of abandonment. I suspect you've seen it many times but have simply overlooked it. It would be evident, for example, in irrational jealousy or in very controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from your close friends and family members. Significantly, if your H does NOT have a great fear of abandonment, he is NOT a BPDer -- i.e., is not exhibiting a strong pattern of BPD warning signs.



> But if that's how he feels then oh my goodness, what are we supposed to do?


If he really does exhibit strong BPD traits, there is nothing "WE" can do about it. It is something he must fix on his own and, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to be willing to see a therapist about it. And, even when a BPDer does seek therapy, it is rare for him to stay in therapy long enough (many years) to make a real difference.



> I'm thinking back to everything he has said to me over the years.... that he 'knows me better than I know myself', and here's what I am/what I'm not.


As I noted above, other people seem very simple to a BPDer because he forces everyone to fit into a black or white box. This is one reason why BPD is said to constitute a "thought distortion." Significantly, BPDers see physical reality just fine and, for this reason, are not crazy or psychotic. What is distorted is their perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

If that distortion seems strange, please keep in mind that it happens to you every time you experience intense feelings toward another person -- e.g., every time you feel infatuated or very angry with that person. Those intense feelings will distort your perception of his intentions and motivations. 

This is why, by the time you were in high school, you already knew you cannot trust your own judgment when you experience intense feelings. Well, BPDers are like that too -- only more so because, being unable to manage their emotions, they experience intense feelings far more frequently and deeply.



> I've been told during many arguments... that I am immature, insecure, and unstable.


If your H is a BPDer, those three characteristics describe HIS behavior. Hence, if he has strong BPD traits, his subconscious is protecting his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting his feelings of shame and hurt and his bad thoughts onto YOU. 

Because the projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, he will _consciously _believe that the immaturity, insecurity, and instability are truly coming from YOU. This is why BPDers usually are convinced that the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true. And a week later, when they are claiming the exact opposite, they will be just as convinced that is true too.



> There's something about him having to maintain control of he and I that seems to be a major trigger for him. We get along ok if everything in our relationship is going his way.


The same can be said for nearly every four year old. You will get along fine with a young child as long as he always gets his own way.



> For the first three minutes he was ok, calmly responding....then everything I said to try to explain or defend myself just enraged him.


If he is a BPDer, you were lucky to get the 3 minutes of calm. As I mentioned earlier, a BPDer is carrying enormous rage inside. A release of that rage can be triggered in only ten seconds. This is why it usually is impossible to have a calm, rational discussion of any sensitive subject with a BPDer. That is, you are always just ten seconds from an outburst if you mention it.



> "WELL YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO NEED ME, YOU'RE ONLY SUPPOSED TO NEED GOD!!"


This is a good example of magical thinking -- i.e., I don't have to meet any of your needs because that is God's problem. It is also a good example of the total lack of empathy BPDers will exhibit while splitting you black. Hence, if your H has strong BPD traits, this use of magical thinking and lack of empathy is to be expected when he is angry with you. BPDers nonetheless are capable of enormous empathy while splitting you white.



> He makes me feel bad ALL the time.... he makes everything my fault.


A BPDer is convinced he is "The Victim," always "The Victim." Hence, if your H is a BPDer, you will be allowed to stay married to him only as long as you play one of two roles: Savior or Perpetrator. During the honeymoon period, for example, a BPDer perceives of you as the near-perfect woman who has come to save him from unhappiness. The implication of his "being saved," of course, is that he must be "The Victim" in need of saving.

Following the honeymoon, a BPDer will increasingly split you black, at which time you will be perceived as the "Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of his every misfortune. Again, the implication is that he must be "The Victim." In this way, a BPDer is able to continually "validate" his false self image of always being "The Victim." The reason this is so important to him is that, otherwise, he really has no idea who he is. A person whose emotional development froze at age four never managed to develop a cohesive sense of who he is.



> But by far the worst part(!) and he has always done this -- I start a sentence and I get about three words in and he SCREAMS OVER TOP OF ME finishing the sentence for me....


Like I said, you're describing a parent/child relationship and he is NOT the parent. You also are describing a lack of impulse control, which is another hallmark of BPDer behavior.



> Something sticky spills in the fridge that i didnt even know about, it's immediately, "What did you do??!"


Your willingness to keep apologizing for these imagined transgressions, so as to keep him calmed down, is enabling behavior that is harming BOTH of you. By protecting him from having to suffer the logical consequences of his own actions, you are preventing him from being forced to confront his own issues and learn how to manage them. Your efforts to calm him and avoid triggering his rages are called "walking on eggshells." You should stop doing that. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._



> I know a miracle could happen.... I don't know if I should fight like crazy to get us both healed and healthy, or just go find someone else?


I agree with the other respondents advising you to divorce him if he is unwilling to seek therapy. Significantly, if his BPD traits are strong, MC almost certainly will be a total waste of time because, until he's had years of therapy to address his more serious issues, teaching him better communications skills would only make him better at manipulating or controlling you. What is needed is IC with a psychologist but it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength needed to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference. If he is a BPDer, the chances of such "a miracle" happening likely are very small.

I therefore suggest you see a good psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you're dealing with. Importantly, BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether he exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits them at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as strong verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde.

I therefore suggest that, while you're searching for a psych, you read more about BPD red flags to learn what to look for. An easy place to start is my list of red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Tired.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Uptown spots it again.

Therapy, with a PhD level education. Not a LCSW. You're going to need an expert in your corner.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Uptown spots it again.
> 
> Therapy, with a PhD level education. Not a LCSW. You're going to need an expert in your corner.


Uptown is probably right. BPD / NPD flags all over the forums this week.

Don't remember if I raised it early in one of Tired's other threads but certainly, when the later revelations appeared, attempting to get her to see the potential for imminent violence became a priority. The hubby only has THAT escalation left to go.

Better she gets out and lets the fùcker worry about his own disorder cuz, it seems to me, her trying to persuade him to get help would only endanger her.

Then, of course, you have to factor in the BPDs reluctance to go cuz "there's nothing wrong with me. It's you." and that they typically quit therapy when the shrink doesn't see it their way.

If Tired's gonna persuade him to get help, I'd prefer she did it from a safe distance,, by phone or e-mail, ideally from a secret / secure location.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Tiredofbeingsad
I'm not a doctor but this sounds much more than controlling / abusive. This sounds like mental illness, or possibly some deep sexual problem: CSA, repressed homosexuality etc.

I agree with others. For your own safety get out now. He can to to therapy, or for a psychiatric evaluation to try to understand what is going on, but this sounds dangerous to me.

If it is not mental illness or some repressed sexual problem, then he is a HORRIBLE and abusive person and you should leave anyway.

At this point the best thing you can do for him is to get somewhere safe and convince him to seek medical help.

As always, people read stories like this their own way, filling in the gaps between the words with imagined images and sounds.

All that said, I have a really bad feeling about this. Please get out and let us know that you are safe.


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## cool12 (Nov 17, 2013)

ugh. i wouldn't want to have sex with him either. he sounds awful.
you have some difficult times ahead of you but i can tell you have the strength to get thru it and find peace and happiness waiting for you. time for a plan.


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## mace85 (Mar 12, 2012)

Simply put your husband is a piece of trash. Sure he was abused, and it undoubtedly left scars. But he is abusing you and that makes him trash. 

The problem is your not "right with God". Sure, that's got to be it. He sounds like a piss poor Christian. I hate when people use religion as the reason to treat other people poorly. 

Leave him now. Do not try to fix this, do not try to ride it out. Pack your stuff, leave the house, and work on recovering from this disaster.


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## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

allwillbewell said:


> Dear Tired...
> 
> Please please get yourself to a domestice abuse shelter to talk to the people there or at the very least call a domestic abuse hotline and tell them all you have written here. Please do not hesitate.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for worrying about me, that means so much to me you don't even know. After hearing similar concerns from other people on here, I had that Patricia Evans book rush shipped to me, The Emotionally Abusive Relationship, desperate for more insight. I ended up more frustrated than ever. 

In all the hypothetical scenarios in that book, it's the same kind of man over and over- a deliberately cruel man who gets his rocks off by causing his partner pain, a man who practically strokes his beard and goes "I'll control you if it's the laaaaaaast...thing.... I dooooo, Mwah ha ha ha." And the same kind of 'victim', a timid, mousy woman who stammers and cowers. I don't want to diminish these poor women at all, it breaks my heart that that is so real, but these scenarios are not my situation. I don't feel like a victim, and I cant in good conscience put him in the same category as those cavemen either. But the frustration is growing. Trying to put labels on this and finding they don't quite fit is making me feel crazier than ever...!


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## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

mace85 said:


> Simply put your husband is a piece of trash. Sure he was abused, and it undoubtedly left scars. But he is abusing you and that makes him trash.
> 
> The problem is your not "right with God". Sure, that's got to be it. He sounds like a piss poor Christian. I hate when people use religion as the reason to treat other people poorly.
> 
> Leave him now. Do not try to fix this, do not try to ride it out. Pack your stuff, leave the house, and work on recovering from this disaster.


He's not a piece of trash.  He's a messed up guy who is blind to what he's doing to me. That being said I don't feel obligated to stay, I am wearing out quickly. But he's not a monster or I would have been out the door years ago. He's just disappointed me too many times by not being the emotional safe harbor I wish he was.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Labels NEVER fit like lycra.

If he can control you with his moods, he doesn't need to go 'caveman'. Make no mistake though,, you are one of those poor women. You're hurting every bit as much as they do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> Child, you are with someone who has an awful, terrible secret. And whenever you get within a country mile of that secret, all hell breaks loose.
> 
> ...


THIS post hit me hard. This sounds about as right as any assessment could be... yes, yes, it's what Ive been wondering too..!

_"He creates intense emotional chaos whenever you approach this topic because he cannot change the fact that he dislikes sex."_

ohmygosh yes. I swear I've been trying to listen to the things he's been saying, even though they've rattled me, and saying to myself, Ok, don't be proud, take a good look at yourself, is there any truth to what he's saying is wrong with you... and Ive concluded, NO THERE ISN'T! So what is really going on here??

HE has serious intimacy issues. And what better defense than to turn it on the other person and tell her SHE's the one repelling the intimacy... ughhhhhhhhhhh i can't hear that one more time

I may have insecurities. Yes. I may even have DADDY issues from my youth, yes! But to yell these those things at me, when I have the nerve to say I'm sad about separate bedrooms or about only having sex every two months, that is a serious mind game being played. And I dont even think it's a conscious thing on his part, this thing runs very deep, to places he doesn't want to look. He has just come up with a way to transfer the shame from him to me.

Whatever it is, I am heartbroken for him, I wish I could go back to his childhood and punch every adult who ever scarred that little boy right in the face. But what is my role as an adult wife who is suffering now too because of it. 

_"He's being deliberately vague about what he needs you to do. That's so he can always claim you haven't done it."_

This part, my friend, made me cry and cry. Because that realization is exactly why my heart is breaking- it has been dawning on me even before the confirmation of seeing your words on the screen, That yes, that is how it will always be. And I don't know that I can live like that any more, no matter how much we love each other.

Thank you.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

tired,

You mentioned that your husband has gone through steps to forgive his abusive father and heal. I don't see that has actually taken place...perhaps in words and intention...but his healing has likely only been surface deep. As the saying goes: "Hurt people hurt people."

It sounds to me that your husband is wrapped very tightly concerning the areas that test his vulnerability...for example, sexual intimacy and being embarrassed/looking foolish. This is someone who does not tolerate his own perceived weaknesses and expects you to only supply him with feedback that he is perfect, manly, worthy of love...basically using you as a scapegoat or a dog to kick if he feels his image is less than stellar.

His whole self-composure is built up around how he is perceived and that, my friend, is a house of cards. He acts tough, but it seems like his seld-esteem is only paper thin, yet will never admit to it, can never talk about it, and demands that you pretend and help him hold up his house of cards.

He can't handle or take the blame, probably because deep-down he probably despises himself...and this is why that my guess is that he has not dug deep and rooted out the lies he believed about himself when he was being abused as a child. Stuff like that sticks...and re-experiencing any of it sends him back in those horrible moments of his past. 

So basically, he is a grown man with the emotional growth of a five year old, evidenced by tantrums, outbursts, irrational blamshifting. This is the area where he needs to let God in. This has nothing to do with you...

...so what you do is stand your ground and do not allow yourself to take the brunt of something that is his issue but is trying to pass off as your issue.


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## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

cool12 said:


> ugh. i wouldn't want to have sex with him either. he sounds awful.
> you have some difficult times ahead of you but i can tell you have the strength to get thru it and find peace and happiness waiting for you. time for a plan.


Thank you for saying you think I have strength. I needed that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

There was a woman, she was almost engaged to this guy. He sounded like your guy. 

If you want, I can post you her thread. 

She was attractive - I'm guessing that you are. So she had absolutely no experience with a man not desiring her. 

I gave her some suggestions. Explained what he would do if I was wrong, and what he would do if I was right.  

It took her less than a month to confirm that he just didn't like sex. 

He did however want to marry her and have kids. He just didn't want to have sex with her. And he was very deceitful in his avoidance tactics. 





tiredofbeingsad said:


> THIS post hit me hard. This sounds about as right as any assessment could be... yes, yes, it's what Ive been wondering too..!
> 
> _"He creates intense emotional chaos whenever you approach this topic because he cannot change the fact that he dislikes sex."_
> 
> ...


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## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

"_He is emotionally fractured. He has built a fortress around his fracture and installed defenses to keep even the most determined, vulnerable, and loving wife out and away. _"

Wow, did that get to me - 

"_Can you get yourself into therapy? How difficult would that be for you? You need to get your head on straight in order to fix this, in order to see how you might fix this, in order to see how you can't fix this._"

Yes, I have my first appointment next week. I've had to wait weeks to get in, which has only opened cracks in my determination and let doubts start to creep in, UGhhh. I wish I could've talked to someone when my clarity was at its peak, brief as that was. 

well I guess I did, I talked to you all - which has been a godsend.


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## tiredofbeingsad (Oct 12, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> There was a woman, she was almost engaged to this guy. He sounded like your guy.
> 
> ...


Yes please! I'd be really interested in reading that actually.

Sounds egotistical of me and I hate that, I don't have an inflated view of myself, But yeah, I'd have to say that's my experience too, "no experience with a man not desiring her". Ugh, but yeah, I've said so many times to myself over the years, with such sadness, that my husband is the least into me of any man I've ever been with. 

Yes please do send that link, I'd really appreciate hearing her experience-

Thanks!


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Tired, be cautious. 

Record and document everything just in case you need a restraining order.

He is to volatile and will lose control. 

He seems fine as long there is no focus on him and his flaws.

As soon as you bring up any concern, especially pertaining to him, he loses self control.

It is not your job to fix him, he needs to seek it himself.

He doesn't cope like a healthy adult should.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

tiredofbeingsad said:


> THIS post hit me hard. This sounds about as right as any assessment could be... yes, yes, it's what Ive been wondering too..!
> 
> _"He creates intense emotional chaos whenever you approach this topic because he cannot change the fact that he dislikes sex."_
> 
> ...


I was in a very similar marriage for many years, and I am a man. Though I didn't have the same fears you might have (physical abuse, perhaps?) I was made to question myself and my sanity every single day.

Much like you, I tried to listen to what my ex wife said, and whether she was right. What if the problem was me? And I'll tell you, there were many areas in which I believed exactly that - it's me. It's my fault. I need to change. She's right, I'm wrong.

Abusers are convincing and believable, and because you love them (or loveD them), you want to believe them. You want to listen to them, act on what they're saying to you, etc.

Now, I didn't "get out". In fact, she left me for somebody else. Best damn thing that's ever happened to me. But I was (and still am) broken. My wife knows this and has patience with me. She understands a bit of what I lived.

On that note, I also don't blame my ex-wife for being a horrible person. She suffered her own abuse, and was brought up by two parents who, imo, should never have had children. One was absent and unavailable due to work and alcoholism, the other was emotionally unavailable. Her two siblings were equally broken.

My previous life doesn't compare to yours apples to apples, but it's the same basics at play.

Get out. You can't fix him, and you don't owe it to him to try. That's not out of spite, it's just the truth. He has his own demons, just like my ex wife did/does. You can't help him, only he can help himself. And you can't sit around waiting for him to change. In fact, the best chance he'll ever have to seek help is if the people he loves yet abuses all leave. It may be the wakeup call he needs. Or it may not and he'll die angry and alone. But that's not your concern.

"In sickness and in health" only applies when there's no threat to you, emotionally, mentally, physically or any combination.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tired,

It doesn't sound egotistical. When I read your posts I thought:
- Smart, excellent language skills, perceptive
- Likely attractive because the root cause (which was instantly obvious to me) of him not liking sex has NEVER happened to her before. Her prior partners desired her a LOT.

The thread below is a 10 minute read. I'm certain you will find many similarities to your situation. 

Lack of Affection... - LoveShack.org Community Forums







tiredofbeingsad said:


> Yes please! I'd be really interested in reading that actually.
> 
> Sounds egotistical of me and I hate that, I don't have an inflated view of myself, But yeah, I'd have to say that's my experience too, "no experience with a man not desiring her". Ugh, but yeah, I've said so many times to myself over the years, with such sadness, that my husband is the least into me of any man I've ever been with.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This post is key to the thread. 

Sometimes a bit of context is helpful:
- I have always been fascinated by human interaction and in particular patterns in conflict
- 22+ years into a very happy marriage consisting of a high drive male (me) and a far lower drive female (my wonderful W) I have a lot of direct personal experience in this area. We have a high level of candor and commitment. So along the way we have compromised on frequency. To be fair my W has met me way more than half way on the compromise.
- I have also done a lot of reading about pairings of high desire (HD)/ low desire (LD) folks in marriages and am writing this from the standpoint of:
o having several thousand marital sexual encounters
o many painfully honest discussions with my W along the way and 
o what I have learned reading many thousands of posts by people on one side or the other of this "challenge"

The posts, when read carefully have a relatively small set of "themes" that repeat. Both constructive and destructive themes regarding how people address desire imbalances. Nemo's beau unfortunately fits very much into the "destructive" theme bucket. 

I am going to summarize, without getting into a needlessly detailed analysis of everything he did. I think it is best to start with the idea of defining where each partner stands in terms of their baseline sexual "desire" for their partner. From best to worse:
1. Spontaneous: This means simply being in proximity to your partner causes you to want to connect with them sexually. 
2. Responsive: This means that you start to feel desire AFTER you and your partner begin to interact sexually. Maybe via light foreplay.
3. Minimally responsive: This means that it is hard for your partner to arouse you even if you relax and let them try. Alternatively you may feel some desire but there is something about your partner that makes the experience less than enjoyable. This board and others are full of male partners who are apparently able to bring their partners to climax consistently and YET - those same partners try hard to avoid sex. Oddly enough orgasm is not a consistently reliable barometer of overall enjoyment. 
4. Sexually averse: Sexual aversion is frighteningly powerful. Many men (this doesn't seem to be as common for women) with a sexual aversion are also very averse to non-sexual affection. I don't if this is fear that touch might arouse their partner and lead to an unwanted sexual advance, or if they simply don't like touch. Either way, the correlation is there. 

Sexual Candor:
Many otherwise honest people are incredibly deceptive where their sex lives are concerned. 
1. Proactive: These folks will share fantasies and honestly and fully answer their partners questions about all matters sexual.
2. Reserved: These people will talk about sex when approached in a careful and non-threatening manner. If you reach the point where they become anxious, generally they change the subject. They work hard to avoid being dishonest or deliberately misleading/inaccurate in their sexual communication.
3. Deceptive: These people work very hard to make sure you don't understand them sexually. And they are very mischievous and (if you are not well read) highly effective at manipulating their partners. 

There are many reasons that I believe Nemo made a great decision. Sadly the lower your partner is on the "desire" scale, the more incentive they have to be less candid. Generally they are (rightly) concerned that if their partner really understood how they felt about sex, the relationship would be jeopardized or worse (for them) abruptly terminated. 

Based on her posts, Nemo's beau was somewhere between minimally responsive and sexually averse. And he was highly deceptive in his behavior. A few dead give aways:
1. Blame shifting: He knows he is the issue and yet tried to make her feel that she was somehow abnormally/hyper-sexual towards him. Once a week for healthy folks in their late thirties - this is a big red flag. He was carefully trying to create some anxiety so she would ease up.
2. Ambiguous / deliberately confusing communication: Going through a third party almost always lowers the quality of communication. There is a sure fire "lost in translation" factor. But it ALSO gives him plausible deniability later if Nemo gets angry about what she hears from the intermediary. He will claim "I NEVER said that to ..intermediary..". Or. if the blame shifting message is accepted without conflict, he quietly walks away having somehow gotten his intermediary to convince Nemo that this is somehow her problem. 
3. Paradox rules: One of the most common tactics of the sexually averse partner is simple, often effective and incredibly cruel. It goes like this:
- I feel pressured when you convey in any manner that you want to have sex. 
- And the pressure kills my desire. 
- So the best way to ensure we have as much sex as possible is for you to never initiate, even in a low key manner.

In short: You are not allowed to initiate. The act of (you) initiating turns me off. At the extreme: By definition if you ask for sex "I will feel pressure which will turn me OFF, so I will reject you". 

And then the game begins. Time passes. The higher desire partner gets more and more anxious because the lower desire partner is not initiating even though they are being left alone as they asked. 

The HD partner, walking on eggshells begins to try gentle hints to convey their needs. The LD partner, keenly aware of exactly what is happening at every step does two things:
1. They pretend not to notice any of the hints
2. Just before their partner reaches full boil they throw a few obstacles in the way. "I am SOOO stressed about work". Hmmm - what an odd coincidence. Or "my stomach is upset, I have a headache, etc."
3. In some cases the HD partner does eventually initiate in frustration and often gets some version of blatantly mediocre/bad sex. Ironically they get better sex if they start to do things that destabilize the relationship because the LD is under duress. 

The sad thing about all this is that it is highly assymettric conflict:
1. The HD partner is being straight all along. And they incorrectly believe they are being given an honest picture of the LD's viewpoint. They are operating at a massive information disadvantage. 
2. The HD partner is also typically more anxious about this topic. Not always, but normally in the day to day they are. Part of this is a control thing. The LD partner is in control and can always choose to give in, and live to avoid sex another day. Or say no for any of a dozen believable reasons. The HD partner has been told they aren't even allow to express their needs. 
3. The result is a foregone conclusion. The HD partners self esteem takes a slow, brutal, relentless beating from all this implied/explicit rejection. And when they ask what is wrong (and they do, again and again), they get a never ending, always shifting list of reasons why sex isn't present in the marriage. And when they push hard they get promised a better, brighter tomorrow. Sadly, sexual preferences are fixed, so tomorrow never comes......

---------------









MEM11363 said:


> Tired,
> 
> It doesn't sound egotistical. When I read your posts I thought:
> - Smart, excellent language skills, perceptive
> ...


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

Just checking in to see how you are faring and to let you know I’m thinking of you. 

I hope you are still keeping your head up in these frigid seas or if you are drowning I hope that you have sprouted gills and are breathing water.


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## BeenThereBefore (Nov 11, 2014)

MEM11363, brilliant analysis of the problem, 

but it appears you left out the solution?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Been there,

The OP has described a Jeckyll and Hyde pattern. She has two choices:
1. Stay 
Or
2. Divorce 

If she stays than she might as well try to maximize Jeckyll and minimize Hyde. The way to do that is to tell him she's ok with however much or little sex he wants, and that she will never initiate or complain or even talk about sex again. HOWEVER she does require some amount of daily physical affection. She will NOT try to use that as a gateway to sex. Just pure non sexual affection (NSA) because it feels good. 

Scary thing is: He might not like affection - being touched - there are people like that. She'll find out quickly once she's separated NSA, from sex. If she finds him avoiding it, or getting irritable when touched, she will have her answer on that as well. 

*2. The only thing I would add here is that for her own physical safety, she should give him TOTAL certainty that she will never ever reference their sexual incompatibility with anyone during or after the divorce. She will stick like monster glue to: We drifted apart, we're still friends and he's a great guy. 

Because this topic is intensely volatile for him. Plenty of men have killed their wives for a lot less than 'harming their reputation / publicly humiliating them'. 

He has built his ENTIRE life around concealing this secret, and preserving his public image. And therefore might be willing to do just about anything to protect that image. *




BeenThereBefore said:


> MEM11363, brilliant analysis of the problem,
> 
> but it appears you left out the solution?


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

So, initially reading your words, you had me thinking the only time he is abusive is when you approach him about your sex life. But, reading further, I see he is ALWAYS abusive and not only has you thinking it is all your fault; that he can save you; that he can make you a better person; that you are severely flawed; that you have to do something to fix yourself that is not possible to accomplish; that you CAUSE him to say and do the things he says and does; that HE knows what you feel, what you think, what you are going to say; that you are always wrong no matter what you say, and all the other garbage, but he also has you thinking he is genuinely a nice guy.....except for THAT other part of him.

You're wrong to think the other abusive men you read about are "rotten to the core" but your husband is somehow different from them or better. For some reason, you have convinced yourself you know those other monsters. You are soooo wrong. Your husband is just like them. He is the typically narcissistic abusive monster. You are the typically abused woman. When you read about mentally and emotionally abusive men, did you also read about yourself - the women that they abuse? Because you are IT, Sister. You are so totally it.

I could link you to a thousand websites, and I hope you will read some and get help for yourself. Suffice it for me to say you KNOW for sure you are with a mentally and emotionally abusive man if:

1. You think your abusive jerk is "a genuinely loving man" and you think he is NOT like all the other abusive jerks that you hear and read about.

I need you to know that all of the good you think is "THE REAL HIM" is the exact same thing all other abusive women say. They ALWAYS say "He's a good man" and sing his praises, just like you did. You, like all the others, are completely fooled by the abusive man. What you don't realize is that is the way he WANTS you to think. They pour on the charm and the love.....so they have someone to abuse. Your husband has to keep you around so you are always available for his abuse. Had he yelled at you or put you down when you first met him, there is no way you would have fallen in love with him. If a physical batterer socked a woman in the face when he first met her, there is no way she would fall in love with him. Abusive men have to convince you to commit - fall in love, get married - so they can secure a permanent and available victim.

2. You are confused and unsure about leaving.

He has spent so long tearing down your self esteem and your confidence that you don't know who you are anymore. You're afraid to trust your instincts, and you're afraid to make the decision. I had my own narcissist who was just like yours and just like all the others. I didn't spend years allowing him to pummel me. I was gone in 3 months when I realized it made no sense for me to be so confused. I realized there was no point in trying to figure him out, or trying to get him to make sense, or trying to get him to explain the awful things he'd say to me. I realized there was no point in trying to understand because none of it mattered. I realized the only thing that mattered was that I didn't like it. The only thing that mattered was that I refuse to live like this. Stop living inside his tornado. You will never understand any of it and by being there, the only thing that can happen over and over and over again is that you get caught up in the centrifugal force of his neurosis.

3. You are incredibly sad and heart broken all the time.

You live in an abyss of misery and you're not really sure why because of your total confusion and your lack of being able to get anything understood or resolved. This will never end. You have to get out. Climb your way out. Claw your way out. Don't even bother to make the decision to end this. Just leave. Stop thinking about it. Stop being sad about it. Stop trying to MAKE yourself believe you need a reason to leave. Stop thinking you have to believe you're NOT making a mistake by leaving or that you have to somehow totally get rid of your will to stay. None of it matters. You will NEVER have those answers because none exist. It's not even possible to make sense of the hell you live in. You will NEVER be able to reconcile leaving the wonderful man he has convinced you he is. The only thing that matters is you don't like it. The only thing that matters is you cry your eyes swollen every day. The only thing that matters is you have to be determined you are NOT going to live this way anymore.

You'l find your Jekyl and Hyde in this article and book.....

Romeo Is Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong
Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net

Why Does He Do That? 
Inside the minds of angry and controlling men.
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quot...inside-the-minds-of-angry-and-controlling-men

And, honestly, I think your husband is a closeted homosexual. He might not even be willing to admit that to himself.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The forecast calls for emotional imbalance with a good chance of him being brainwashed at a young age by some "religious" teaching or another.

In any conversation when God comes as a witness for the prosecution the argument is lost. God is a conceptual being, not someone he can blame shift.

It appears the guy has a lot of unresolved issues, and as MEM wisely pointed out, a bit of Jekyll and Hyde to go with it. Us of the psycho-terminology clan call it emotional imbalance with a serious lack of empathy and pretty good size disconnect from reality. 

I won't name my favorite personality disorder here but it would seem that there's a few of them he could earn a merit badge for.

It also seems he's trying to get some "revenge" from you for things he perceives you did in the past. Par for the course.

I know it's difficult to think straight when he tag teams the Almighty against you but try to talk to him in very discrete, very concrete sentences - not conceptual exercises. Write down what you have an issue with him in a list - prioritize and select the top 10. Ask him to do the same. A therapist would likely have you do the same drill. Only talk about one entry at a time, do not stray from the subject, and take notes. 

If he's unable or unwilling to go thru this at home or during MC then start looking for an exit plan.

He talks like a politician, always blaming someone else without owning up on his faults - or taking credit for what he did right...


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

tiredofbeingsad said:


> Yes please! I'd be really interested in reading that actually.
> 
> Sounds egotistical of me and I hate that, I don't have an inflated view of myself, But yeah, I'd have to say that's my experience too, "no experience with a man not desiring her". Ugh, but yeah, *I've said so many times to myself over the years, with such sadness, that my husband is the least into me of any man I've ever been with*.
> 
> ...


But, that's your clue right there. This isn't about desiring you or not desiring you. It's not about you at all, so it's nothing personal. If he prefers men (though doesn't admit that to himself), then it isn't about you. You simply aren't built right. If he prefers being controlling in this manner, then it isn't about you. You just happen to be the one that fell for his act. If he has zero desire for sex, then it isn't about you. He wouldn't desire anyone. If you think about it, you are his wife. No less, you are his ready and willing wife - regular and convenient as any man could possibly want you to be. If he had desire, he'd take advantage of that fact whether he desires YOU specifically or not. Just that he needs to and just that he can is all the reason he would need. But he doesn't. Can you see this isn't anything for you to try to figure out?

You're internalizing his actions needlessly, and that's common. Like I said, you're caught up in the centrifugal force of his neurosis. But, you'll never have any answers and never have any real understanding. All you can do is continue being sad and in pain....and driving yourself up a wall in search of answers and understanding.



tiredofbeingsad said:


> In all the hypothetical scenarios in that book, it's the same kind of man over and over- a deliberately cruel man who gets his rocks off by causing his partner pain, a man who practically strokes his beard and goes "I'll control you if it's the laaaaaaast...thing.... I dooooo, Mwah ha ha ha."


Again, you think you know the monsters and don't see your husband as being one of them. But, what makes you so sure? Do you realize you are on the inside? You don't see yourself as the victim but from my vantage point - based, of course, on what you told us - I see your husband very clearly.....and he is clearly one of the monsters.

What I see is he has controlled you, and you don't realize that. I see that he was pummelling you even before he began yelling the words. I see that he has often *corrected* your personality flaws. I see that has usually had you thinking there was something wrong with you that needed to be fixed. I see that he has been the typical and charming Jekyll and Hyde that IS every narcissist. I see that he gradually, expertly, and very cleverly pulled you down into this abyss. This is just from what I can recall of your post because I know I don't remember all of it.

And, just food for thought, you don't know that he's NOT _a deliberately cruel man who gets his rocks off by causing his partner pain, a man who practically strokes his beard and goes "I'll control you if it's the laaaaaaast...thing.... I dooooo, Mwah ha ha ha_. You only know you don't feel like he is, but no other woman feels their monster is either.....until she finally does.....and that doesn't normally happen until therapy if she ever gets any therapy to help her see the light. 

I think he is precisely that cruel person, but my point is you have no idea that he isn't. You can't know if he has sexual desire. You don't know if he masturbates in the shower, or when you think he's taking a dump, or when he's in the men's room at work. All you know is he doesn't come to you. You can't know if he is deliberately causing you all this pain. Think about it: You have been in incredibly pain over this, and what he does is yell at you, blame you, and charge you with impossible tasks whenever you try to discuss it with him. How do you KNOW it is not his way of punishing you? After all, you are not spiritual enough, remember?

I keep saying "you think you know the monsters" because you seem to want there to be a mold that they were all made from and they all fit into. But there is no mold because there are too many disorders that abusive people are possessed of, so you can't know which anyone conforms to until you study the traits and characteristics of several. I'm thinking your husband is narcissistic, but he could be borderline since he exhibits traits of both. But I can't know with certainty because I don't live with him and I'm no therapist. You live with him, so study up on those because he IS one or some of both.



tiredofbeingsad said:


> And the same kind of 'victim', a timid, mousy woman who stammers and cowers. I don't want to diminish these poor women at all, it breaks my heart that that is so real, but these scenarios are not my situation. I don't feel like a victim, and I cant in good conscience put him in the same category as those cavemen either. But the frustration is growing. Trying to put labels on this and finding they don't quite fit is making me feel crazier than ever...!


Every.single.word spoken by a typically abused woman. You don't see yourself as a victim.....and you are, once again, defending him. I don't know where your term "cavemen" came from. That has never been the impression I got from any account that I read but to play on your terminology, how is a caveman described? Controlling? Like your husband?

I think you take exception because your husband has been so subtle in his manner, so you don't recognize that to be controlling and abusive. Plus, you don't think him cruel because he's not cruel all the time and seemingly not cruel often. He's not outwardly cruel except the few occasions he felt threatened (by you broaching the sbuject of sex) and felt he had to so bitterly and ferociously protect the topic. Those few occasions WERE very cruel though, and he became vicious to shut you down. He succeeded despite your best efforts. Other instances were handled in his expert manner, so you didn't feel he was being cruel, but they were cruel too. Read your original post here again. He has been cruel all the long.


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