# Manning Up?



## Mr_brown

Staying consistent? How do you respond to not getting the ten second kiss without her ”pretending to like it”? 
I'm trying to implement the ten second kiss and she's not letting herself enjoy it. She won't even open her mouth, I come back with a devilish grin and say ”you need to pretend to like it” and she says ” that was a ten second kiss” so what is the correct way to respond.

I generally just go about MY business, next day ten second kiss same thing! I feel like I should keep on trying, it's only a kiss. No response, go about my business. Is this, in the manospheres eye, the correct response?


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## Mistys dad

Tell her ahead of time that you are going to kiss her.

Do the 90/10 grab. (go 90% of the way, pull her in the other 10%)

Pin her lightly against the counter when you do it.

Make sure that the other areas of the MAP are working for you. Clothes, breath, attitude, physical shape etc. 

and yes, if she chooses not to respond, that is her issue, not yours. Go about your day and keep trying until you decide that her non responce doesn't warrant your attention any more.


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## Mr_brown

She comes in just not into it... Still a mouth shut kiss


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## WorkingOnMe

You don't get the 10 second kiss. You give it.


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## Mr_brown

I give 90 she should bring it home


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## OhGeesh

Mr_brown said:


> I give 90 she should bring it home


Really I don't get these mind games some of you play. Stay in shape, be honest, dependable, put your family first, and make sure she knows that you love her more than life itself and you will be fine! 

Communication is key mind games, tricks, witholding for a desired response, that's highschool!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Mr_brown said:


> Staying consistent? How do you respond to not getting the ten second kiss without her ”pretending to like it”?
> I'm trying to implement the ten second kiss and she's not letting herself enjoy it. She won't even open her mouth, I come back with a devilish grin and say ”you need to pretend to like it” and she says ” that was a ten second kiss” so what is the correct way to respond.
> 
> I generally just go about MY business, next day ten second kiss same thing! I feel like I should keep on trying, it's only a kiss. No response, go about my business. *Is this, in the manospheres eye, the correct response?*


Absolutely not.

What you do is find out what it is that is so fundamentally wrong about you and/or your wife.

For example it may be that your wife is just a dead fish who’s passion is long dead. It may be that she has no passion inside her for you yet another man could bring it out of her. It may be that the way you go about things turns her off instead of turning her on.

Some women are just “cold” and will not (and I believe in some cases cannot) give out love and affection in the way you want your wife to.

What I don’t get is why you are demeaning yourself trying to kiss a woman who doesn’t want you to kiss her. And it sounds like you keep on doing it.



Some women are so exceedingly passive that they wont tell you that she has a problem with you. But she demonstrates that there is a very big problem with you by not kissing you back! You are just not getting that no matter how many times she “tells” you by not kissing you back.

I think this is somehow wrapped up with this Nice Woman thing. In that if she were to tell you WHY she doesn’t like you, it would make her look “Not Nice” the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil thing.

This kissing thing between you and your wife is just an indicator (probably one of many that you are missing) that there are serious and deep rooted problems in your marriage.


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## AFEH

It may be that your wife is saving her passion for a lover in her life (sorry buddy but it’s obviously not you).

It may be something she’d do for him that makes their relationship special, but not you. You should check it out, see if she has another man in her life. I wouldn’t confront directly, do it by snooping.


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## FormerNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> I wouldn’t confront directly, do it by snooping.


This is bad advice. Being so insecure that you resort to snooping is not going to improve your sex life.

You can't control the wife. 

You can control you.

She is not responding. Accept it and quit trying.

You can live for a little while without sex and intimacy from your wife.

Focus on yourself. Improve yourself. Take up a hobby, get a promotion, start a business and don't care what the wife thinks about it. Do it for you.

Detach the emotional hose from your wife. Put your passion into something that gives you a return.

Be in the moment.

Take these steps not to punish your wife, but to improve yourself. 

You need to find yourself in a place where you love your wife AND know that you can live without her. This is the paradox of lasting love.

She will either respond or not. 

Either way, you will be OK.

P.S. You don't need to understand anything about your wife or your relationship. Don't overthink - act in a congruent and authentic manner and you will do fine.


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## AFEH

FormerNiceGuy said:


> This is bad advice. Being so insecure that you resort to snooping is not going to improve your sex life.


I had an excellent sex life for 42 years, full of passions and desires, wants and needs. There were many reasons for that. None of which included ANY of the advice so far given in this thread.

My advice to snoop does not come from any sense of insecurity whatsoever. You are very wrong in that. My advice to snoop comes from the sort of knowledge only first hand experience can bring.

For me your comments are exceptionally naïve, but some just like me must learn our lessons in life the seriously hard way.


OP’s sex life will never be like he wants it to be if his wife desires another man and gives her passions to him.


If you are that great a man that your wife never desires another and you can keep it that way for four or five decades then very well done and very good luck to you.


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## Drover

Mistys dad said:


> Make sure that the other areas of the MAP are working for you.


This. What's your situation and how long have you been running the MAP? You can't just read the book and expect that your wife who hasn't wanted sex with you in months will just succumb to the 10-second kiss. Likewise, you can't just run the MAP for a week and expect her to fall into your arms.


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## FormerNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> My advice to snoop does not come from any sense of insecurity whatsoever. You are very wrong in that. My advice to snoop comes from the sort of knowledge only first hand experience can bring.


I am not here to debate you. We all have our opinions and mine are as based in experience as yours are.



AFEH said:


> For me your comments are exceptionally naïve, but some just like me must learn our lessons in life the seriously hard way.


That is nonsense. Did I hurt your ego by disagreeing with you?



AFEH said:


> OP’s sex life will never be like he wants it to be if his wife desires another man and gives her passions to him.


You are right. 

But guess what, spending a bunch of time playing Magnum PI to try and figure it out is wasted effort. She is a grown woman who will do what she wants to do. 

He needs to pay attention to her actions and work on himself.

AFEH, I don't know your story, but reading between the lines, I am guessing your wife left you for another man?


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## AFEH

FormerNiceGuy said:


> This is bad advice. Being so insecure that you resort to snooping is not going to improve your sex life.
> 
> You can't control the wife.
> 
> You can control you.
> 
> She is not responding. Accept it and quit trying.
> 
> You can live for a little while without sex and intimacy from your wife.
> 
> Focus on yourself. Improve yourself. Take up a hobby, get a promotion, start a business and don't care what the wife thinks about it. Do it for you.
> 
> Detach the emotional hose from your wife. Put your passion into something that gives you a return.
> 
> Be in the moment.
> 
> Take these steps not to punish your wife, but to improve yourself.
> 
> You need to find yourself in a place where you love your wife AND know that you can live without her. This is the paradox of lasting love.
> 
> She will either respond or not.
> 
> Either way, you will be OK.
> 
> P.S. You don't need to understand anything about your wife or your relationship. Don't overthink - act in a congruent and authentic manner and you will do fine.


Some of you guys take this you can only work on yourself thing waaaaay too far.

Not getting the passion and affection you want from your wife? First two things to check out: (1) Is she resentful? And if she is resentful is she withholding her passion by way of punishment through passive aggression. (2) Is she in an affair? She will not give you her passion if she is giving it to another man.

In both of the above cases your wife will NOT tell you of the problem! But in the case of the affair she is keeping you “onside” with her passionless kiss and it’s the same with her resentment.

Of course the above is true if (a) your wife is capable of passionate and affectionate acts and (b) you have been the beneficiary of her passion and affection before.

No amount of NMMNG, MAP or anything else is going to work for you if your wife is big time resentful or she is in an affair. Sometimes she’s both and then you really haven’t a hope in hell until those problems are sorted!

Start out with the assumption that every single woman on the planet knows what a sexy and passionate kiss is! Sometimes you may have to reawaken that in later life and long term marriages but that will never happen if she’s resentful and/or if she’s in an affair!


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## Drover

AFEH said:


> Not getting the passion and affection you want from your wife? First two things to check out: (1) Is she resentful?


Yeah, this is where I am. She's resentful. Suggestions?


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## AFEH

FormerNiceGuy said:


> I am not here to debate you. We all have our opinions and mine are as based in experience as yours are.


That's rubbish! You were and are in direct opposition to my advice. In fact you were and are exceedingly confrontational and demeaning wrt what I said. But you are not in a debate?

And although you’ve gone right into confrontation with me and I’ve reasserted my position, all of a sudden you are not in a debate! If that’s not got Nice Guy written all over it, I don’t know what has!

“Former”NiceGuy? Look. These things don’t happen over night. It’s an evolution within your own life time.


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## AFEH

FormerNiceGuy said:


> That is nonsense. Did I hurt your ego by disagreeing with you?


You make such a demeaning comment and you think my ego isn’t going to be hurt?

Wow.

What did you expect me to do? Roll up in a ball like a hedgehog or something? Believe me, that is not my way.


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## AFEH

FormerNiceGuy said:


> But guess what, spending a bunch of time playing Magnum PI to try and figure it out is wasted effort. She is a grown woman who will do what she wants to do.


Well that just sounds like really stupid behaviour (or lack of it) you're recommending there. Where on earth are you getting your values and beliefs from?

A Man is his own Sentinel. He makes absolutely certain his borders haven’t been breached and remain secure. If his borders have been breached no way does he tolerate it as you seem to be suggesting. He gets it sorted.


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## AFEH

Drover said:


> Yeah, this is where I am. She's resentful. Suggestions?


I think resentment is the number one problem within marriages. Yet it is the most difficult to resolve and maybe least spoken about. I also believe it’s what brings most marriages down. Basically because it’s enactment is the withdrawal of loving actions by way of passive aggression.

Actively aggressive people are rarely resentful people. Because they get the problem sorted at source. Passives let it sit and simmer, sometimes for decades.

Resentment is suppressed anger and dislike. And it comes out in acts of passive aggression. Aggression is designed to hurt and cause pain. Passive aggression is designed to be covert such that you don’t know the hurt and pain you are feeling is intentional.

But you are the target of your wife’s resentment and subsequent aggression. It may well be passive, but it is still aggression and it’s designed to hurt. And because of all that, you are not the one who will be able to get your wife on the path of healing.

Believe me I tried everything with my wife but she hung onto her resentment as though her very life depended on it.

What I didn’t try was The Marriage Course - Explore Alpha Marriage Course | Alpha USA. I only discovered it by talking with the MC parents of my sons buddy after I'd separated from my wife. It was a very nice chat and they told me some couples enter the programme “back-to-back” (know what I mean?) and as the sessions go by warmth re-enters the relationship and the couple turns round and take affectionate looks at one another.

When you look at the contents (Alpha USA : Find Out More About the Course) of the sessions, you may imagine why this happens. 

I see resentment and an affair as malignant cancers in a marriage. But unlike FormerNiceGuy (I am having a go at you, just to try and wake you up and out of your slumber) I believe these will bring down the marriage if there is not an intervention.

With resentment, this intervention is far better undertaken by a surgeon (an MC in this case) who knows what he is doing when he tries to remove the cancer that it is.


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## anonymouskitty

Nip her lips gently, shock her into opening up for you and then RAVISH THAT CAVERNOUS MOUTH OF HERS......aggression is the key to illicit a response my friend, especially when they're playing hard to get.


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## alphaomega

IMO.....

Both afeh and fmng advice is correct.

Even in the nnmg book, it states that no amount of the MAP will work if your wife is resentful or in an affair.

Personally, after my own experiences, I would never snoop again. I found it life draining. I think I've grown past that. Me....if my so wasn't responsive, then I would decide wether it's worth it to keep pursuing her. If not, then I would just end it. But perhaps some would need to find out why, for closure sake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

anonymouskitty said:


> Nip her lips gently, shock her into opening up for you and then RAVISH THAT CAVERNOUS MOUTH OF HERS......aggression is the key to illicit a response my friend, especially when they're playing hard to get.


I don’t know where you guys get these ideas from.

A man “can” take a woman. BUT ONLY EVER WHAT SHE WANTS TO GIVE!

Step over that barrier and you are on immensely DANGEROUS ground for her and for you.

He needs to find out WHY she does not WANT to give herself to him. She’s not even setting herself up for him to “take” her and because of that what you recommend is exceedingly dangerous.


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## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> IMO.....
> 
> Both afeh and fmng advice is correct.
> 
> Even in the nnmg book, it states that no amount of the MAP will work if your wife is resentful or in an affair.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh come on Alphaomega. FNG and myself are in absolute and complete opposite values and beliefs in these things at the most fundamental levels, yet you say we are both correct? Some of you guys are so very complicated.

I haven’t read NNMG or MAP.


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## alphaomega

Well....

Fmng is trying to utilize the MAP and is giving advise based on the strategy of the book. If you paraphrase, basically I can see that he's stating be the man. Be confident. Be attractive and the woman will follow if you choose to lead. 

You state that if there is an affair, then no amount of the manning up strategy will work. ...or deep resentment. Same thing. There is a deep rooted flaw that is destroying the marriage.

Both are correct. But, The MAP will work ONLY if she wants to give...and of course...follow your lead. If she doesn't want to give....then no amount of the MAP will work.

I think the confusion is that these strategies....such as the seven second kiss....isn't a game to make your wife fall in love with you. It's designed to illicit passion. But if your wife isn't into it, then it's not going to work anyways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Absolutely. If a wife is filled with resentment or in an affair nothing will bring forth her passion from her. At least nothing her husband does. If either of those two things exist, trying to elicit passion and affection from a wife is equivalent to trying to start a car that’s got an empty tank. It ain’t never going to happen.

Some woman “talk” to their husbands with their behaviour and body language. They don’t assert themselves and confront their husbands with words to communicate to them.

But some husbands (I was one of them) are totally deaf to what their wives are telling them with their body language.

For example OP’s wife, from her point of view may be SCREAMING at him with her behaviour and body language either (a) Can’t you see I don’t like you enough to do that because of what you did to me! or (b) Don’t you know I’m in an affair!

And the more a husband just doesn’t get his wife’s messages she sends by way of her behaviour and body language, the more she sees him as dumb and she loses even more respect for him.


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## anonymouskitty

AFEH if its one thing I've observed, your comments are too direct and too condescending where others are concerned, you're sex life may be amazing even after 42 years, I may not be as wise or experienced as you oh noble one but I just added my 0.02$ to this discussion as did FMNG. 

My advice is my own and i am not forcing it upon you or Mr_brown.

To Mr_brown, try it out once and if she still doesn't respond, you can work on whats ailing your marriage, but i wouldn't endorse AFEH's advice about going into super spy mode unless you genuinely notice certain red flags or you want to just for the heck of it. Paranoia can drive you mad, trust me I'm speaking from experience


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## AFEH

anonymouskitty said:


> AFEH if its one thing I've observed, your comments are too direct and too condescending where others are concerned, you're sex life may be amazing even after 42 years, I may not be as wise or experienced as you oh noble one but I just added my 0.02$ to this discussion as did FMNG.
> 
> My advice is my own and i am not forcing it upon you or Mr_brown.
> 
> To Mr_brown, try it out once and if she still doesn't respond, you can work on whats ailing your marriage, but i wouldn't endorse AFEH's advice about going into super spy mode unless you genuinely notice certain red flags or you want to just for the heck of it. Paranoia can drive you mad, trust me I'm speaking from experience


From my experience his wife NOT RESPONDING to his kiss is a MASSIVE red flag. That is why I spoke out strongly against your advice.

Your good self, just like most of the others, tell him to keep going. Yet you went further and encourage him to do even more!

What is it about you guys that you put yourselves up for so much rejection?

Do you not know that it really does take two to tango in these things?

Do you not know that your wives should actually “want” you and if she doesn’t, there is something deeply and seriously amiss that no “technique” is ever going to resolve?


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## Deejo

Frankly, there isn't enough information to give you input on what you're asking for.

Checked your other posts, but nothing jumped out in terms of what the origin, or present status of your marriage is.

So ... in summarizing the overall consensus here, if your wife isn't into you ... for the myriad reasons offered, then the 10 second kiss is an utter waste of time, and if anything, can be a vehicle for further resentment.

If it ain't working ,,, then stop. What then becomes important is what other behaviors do you modify in conjunction ... specifically ones that she approves of and takes for granted, or advantage of.

And as usual, I respectfully disagree with OhGeesh. I admire his marriage. Can't argue with results. But ... as odd as he may find it, he already implements a working strategy. One that works for he and his wife.

If tomorrow his wife shut down communication, withheld love, affection, and sex ... he is left with the same 2 options as any other guy that finds themselves in these circumstances.

Modify what you are doing in order to reestablish the relationship or hold fast to your personal code and boundaries, and if she violates them without regard ... then you leave.

Quite simply, it's all good ... until it's not all good.


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## AFEH

anonymouskitty said:


> AFEH if its one thing I've observed, your comments are too direct and too condescending where others are concerned, you're sex life may be amazing even after 42 years, I may not be as wise or experienced as you oh noble one but I just added my 0.02$ to this discussion as did FMNG.
> 
> My advice is my own and i am not forcing it upon you or Mr_brown.
> 
> To Mr_brown, try it out once and if she still doesn't respond, you can work on whats ailing your marriage, but i wouldn't endorse AFEH's advice about going into super spy mode unless you genuinely notice certain red flags or you want to just for the heck of it. Paranoia can drive you mad, trust me I'm speaking from experience


Body Language!

The OP’s wife’s closed mouth is a BOUNDARY. She keeps it closed such that he cannot get in. If she wanted him in she would open her mouth and let him in.

And you advise him to force entry. Not good that.


I ALWAYS check my paranoia out. Face it directly. Mostly it’s a figment of my imagination. It’s not paranoia but real.

If you don’t check it out as you suggest, you’ll never know the difference between paranoia and reality.


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## anonymouskitty

With all due respect AFEH(aka super alpha dude) I'm sure your wife is well past her menopause but some wives are young, the post ovulation week makes them moody. I merely gave OP my advice on how to get a response, that being a swat on the cheek for the improper use of OP's wife's person in which case I'm pretty sure you'd sit in a corner and cry yourself to sleep and start investigating about the reasons or as i believe OP will do just laugh it off.
Or you could get an intense response leading to a sizzler.

Listen M_B if she rejects sex then thats a red flag, if she's acting aloof simply remove your attention from her.

AFEH no need to assert your dominance over this thread, you are a winner my friend, and just to set the record straight my wife who is sitting beside me as i type this ( biting my head off because we're late for our jog) wishes to inform you that "she" does want "me" and then some and thanks you for the advice you've given us with regards to technique and the alpha attitude. Good day Sir fair thee well


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## AFEH

anonymouskitty said:


> With all due respect AFEH(aka super alpha dude) I'm sure your wife is well past her menopause but some wives are young, the post ovulation week makes them moody. I merely gave OP my advice on how to get a response, that being a swat on the cheek for the improper use of OP's wife's person in which case I'm pretty sure you'd sit in a corner and cry yourself to sleep and start investigating about the reasons or as i believe OP will do just laugh it off.
> Or you could get an intense response leading to a sizzler.
> 
> Listen M_B if she rejects sex then thats a red flag, if she's acting aloof simply remove your attention from her.
> 
> AFEH no need to assert your dominance over this thread, you are a winner my friend, and just to set the record straight my wife who is sitting beside me as i type this ( biting my head off because we're late for our jog) wishes to inform you that "she" does want "me" and then some and thanks you for the advice you've given us with regards to technique and the alpha attitude. Good day Sir fair thee well


Is that how you see it?

Check out your paranoia. You may not like what you find there, but it's the only guaranteed way I know of ensuring you are not deluded.

You may then well take your mask off and live in reality.


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## AFEH

Deejo said:


> So ... in summarizing the overall consensus here, if your wife isn't into you ... for the myriad reasons offered, then the 10 second kiss is an utter waste of time, and if anything, can be a vehicle for further resentment.


Yes. I’d be seriously p!ssed if someone tried to shove their tongue down my throat when I’d told them no many times.


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## Enchantment

Mr_brown said:


> Staying consistent? How do you respond to not getting the ten second kiss without her ”pretending to like it”?
> I'm trying to implement the ten second kiss and she's not letting herself enjoy it. She won't even open her mouth, I come back with a devilish grin and say ”you need to pretend to like it” and she says ” that was a ten second kiss” so what is the correct way to respond.
> 
> I generally just go about MY business, next day ten second kiss same thing! I feel like I should keep on trying, it's only a kiss. No response, go about my business. Is this, in the manospheres eye, the correct response?


Hi Mr_brown~

I'm not sure you should keep on trying. If your wife is so unwilling to indulge in a kiss with you, then continuing to force the kiss on her will just make her more irritated with it and with you.

I agree with AFEH that with her lips closed and her non-responsiveness to you, that she is setting a very clear boundary and statement to you.

If you're into the Athol Kay stuff (which is where I have seen references to the ten second kiss), I think that even he says that you need to have a partner that is willing. If they aren't, you don't continue to push it on them, handle with humor and walk away.

Best wishes!


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## AFEH

It is a rejection. But a passive rejection in that your wife waits until you try and do something with her before she rejects you. It could even be passive aggression, a premeditated act undertaken such that you feel hurt and wounded.

In an ideal world if she has problems with you then she would be up front, open and honest about them. She would confront you with her issues and work with you to resolve them.

But instead of talking openly with you she is using her behaviour and body language to communicate with you. This is what people like MEM and Deejo mean when they say take note of her behaviour more so than her words.

Women understand how to read behaviour (over time) and body language far better than your typical man. Often we are deaf and dumb to it. For example, how many times must your wife for all intents and purposes reject your passionate kiss before you get the message? In this case, with respect you are probably just being the dumb man, unable to “read” your wife.

Your wife may never tell you why she’s not into responding in kind with your passionate kiss because her reasons may well be a secret she does not want you to know about. See if you can get her in front of an MC. These people are good at reading body language and while your wife seems to be able to fool you easily it is not so easy to fool an MC.


I have of course assumed everything is ok in the mouth hygiene stakes.


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## FormerNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> You make such a demeaning comment and you think my ego isn’t going to be hurt?


AFEH - you make me laugh. I said it was bad advice and you call that "demeaning"? You are projecting.



AFEH said:


> A Man is his own Sentinel. He makes absolutely certain his borders haven’t been breached and remain secure. If his borders have been breached no way does he tolerate it as you seem to be suggesting. He gets it sorted.


You have been reading too much Sun Tzo while not paying enough attention to what I wrote. You are projecting.



AFEH said:


> But unlike FormerNiceGuy (I am having a go at you, just to try and wake you up and out of your slumber).


What gave you the delusional idea that I needed any help from you? 

You seem to have an issue with projecting.

Please, you work on you and I'll take care of myself.

Fondly, FNG


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## AFEH

FormerNiceGuy said:


> AFEH - you make me laugh. I said it was bad advice and you call that "demeaning"? You are projecting.
> 
> 
> 
> You have been reading too much Sun Tzo while not paying enough attention to what I wrote. You are projecting.
> 
> 
> 
> What gave you the delusional idea that I needed any help from you?
> 
> You seem to have an issue with projecting.
> 
> Please, you work on you and I'll take care of myself.
> 
> Fondly, FNG


:sleeping:


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## memyselfandi

Crossing over here...

It takes two to kiss. Either it's really good as she kisses you back..or it's mundane. Schmuch...schmuch....see ya.

The best kisses between two people are the ones that make your toes curl..your heart beat a mile a minutes..and ask for more and more.

Don't feel bad if the first kiss wasn't what you expected. Like I said...I takes two and being out of sync the first time doesn't mean you'll always be outta sync.


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## Sawney Beane

AFEH said:


> :sleeping:


This from a man who rails about how wrong it is for men to use smileys? Come on, you can do better than this!


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## AFEH

Sawney Beane said:


> This from a man who rails about how wrong it is for men to use smileys? Come on, you can do better than this!


:sleeping::sleeping:


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## anonymouskitty

You know AFEH sometimes i wonder if you're a teenaged troll


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## AFEH

anonymouskitty said:


> You know AFEH sometimes i wonder if you're a teenaged troll


And that from a guy called kitty wearing a mask. Masks are massively symbolic of deception. For example, are you male or female? Are you who you purport to be? You infer I’m a troll but you’re far too slow to get the irony.


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## MEM2020

FNG,
Mr. Brown has been posting for a long time now. Did you read any of his back story before giving him this advice? 





FormerNiceGuy said:


> This is bad advice. Being so insecure that you resort to snooping is not going to improve your sex life.
> 
> You can't control the wife.
> 
> You can control you.
> 
> She is not responding. Accept it and quit trying.
> 
> You can live for a little while without sex and intimacy from your wife.
> 
> Focus on yourself. Improve yourself. Take up a hobby, get a promotion, start a business and don't care what the wife thinks about it. Do it for you.
> 
> Detach the emotional hose from your wife. Put your passion into something that gives you a return.
> 
> Be in the moment.
> 
> Take these steps not to punish your wife, but to improve yourself.
> 
> You need to find yourself in a place where you love your wife AND know that you can live without her. This is the paradox of lasting love.
> 
> She will either respond or not.
> 
> Either way, you will be OK.
> 
> P.S. You don't need to understand anything about your wife or your relationship. Don't overthink - act in a congruent and authentic manner and you will do fine.


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## MEM2020

I agree with this. 

Sheesh - the second time my W responded that way I would just smile in a puzzled way and say: "I need you to kiss ME, the way you want me to kiss YOU". 

And if she was not willing to do that, I really wouldn't be ok with it. I just wouldn't. I think that kissing is a really big thing. 







Enchantment said:


> Hi Mr_brown~
> 
> I'm not sure you should keep on trying. If your wife is so unwilling to indulge in a kiss with you, then continuing to force the kiss on her will just make her more irritated with it and with you.
> 
> I agree with AFEH that with her lips closed and her non-responsiveness to you, that she is setting a very clear boundary and statement to you.
> 
> If you're into the Athol Kay stuff (which is where I have seen references to the ten second kiss), I think that even he says that you need to have a partner that is willing. If they aren't, you don't continue to push it on them, handle with humor and walk away.
> 
> Best wishes!


----------



## MEM2020

Unless my W was giving ME the look that initiates things, a 10 second kiss does not START with any tongue from me. 

When I initiate by surprise - slightly open mouth to slightly open mouth I WAIT until she responds to me physically before my tongue shows up. 

Penetration of a partner - mouth or otherwise - happens AFTER they respond to me. 

I freely conceded some women might be turned on my a super aggressive kissing style. 

And you learn that through the trial and error which happens in the beginning of the R - and gets revised every once in a while as needed. 






AFEH said:


> Yes. I’d be seriously p!ssed if someone tried to shove their tongue down my throat when I’d told them no many times.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> FNG,
> Mr. Brown has been posting for a long time now. Did you read any of his back story before giving him this advice?


Not much of a backstory there - 4 posts initiated by Mr. Brown, including the first where he acknowledges that he is a nice guy and trying to apply the teachings of NMMNG.

Was there a point?


----------



## MEM2020

He has tried or is in the process of trying everything you suggested - with one exception: I don't think he is fully grasping the nature of the dance. 

Meaning, there is some level of trial and error involved in this process. And the willingness to approach it that way demonstrates confidence or courage. 

It is also true that a certain failure rate causes a good listener/self - observer to step back and either:
- Ask for specific direction. Ideally have it demonstrated. or
- Stop repeating that particular behavior as it is causing consistent rejection of a type. 

Me - I do not like being repeatedly pushy - it feels wrong/bad to me. I am however DETERMINED to understand my situation if it appears to be bad. 

So the decision tree goes like this:
Me: Kiss ME the way you want me to kiss you
Her: Kissing me with a little/lot of passion - the way she wants me to kiss her
Me: (ok - now let me try) Kissing her back that way and watching the reaction. Playing around a bit - saying - not sure I have that right - I need some more practice.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Alternatively - the not so good outcome

Her: Kissing me with no passion at all. Going through the motions - barely. 
Me: Stepping back laughing - no no - that conveys you dislike kissing. So you have a choice, show me how you LIKE it when I kiss you OR
Tell me that you really dislike being kissed by ME, no matter how I do it. Is my breath bad? If so, I will fix that. If it is something core about ME, tell me what it is. 
Her: Silence
Me: (softly) If you won't tell me what it is, I accept that means you believe it is something I cannot change. Only you know if that is correct, still I accept it if that is where we are. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is a bad path to traverse unless you are well suited to handling the truth, however unpalatable. 

For me, no kissing would equal NO SEX. I choose not to have sex with someone who dislikes kissing me - not due to breath (which can be fixed) or technique (which can be changed) but because they don't like kissing ME. It would feel degrading to me.





FormerNiceGuy said:


> Not much of a backstory there - 4 posts initiated by Mr. Brown, including the first where he acknowledges that he is a nice guy and trying to apply the teachings of NMMNG.
> 
> Was there a point?


----------



## Lyris

anonymouskitty said:


> Nip her lips gently, shock her into opening up for you and then RAVISH THAT CAVERNOUS MOUTH OF HERS......aggression is the key to illicit a response my friend, especially when they're playing hard to get.


The only response my husband would *elicit* from me if he tried to force a kiss like that would be a good, sharp knee to the groin. Or at least a punch in the chest.

Mr_brown needs to find out why his wife is so angry that she has decided to punish him like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anonymouskitty

You don't hit the man parts !!! They're delicate little darlings
Punch in the chest is good enough i reckon,I'd probably say something like " How adorable you are when you do that" and then I'd go about enjoying my day, and i do agree with the investigation part if she's denying him sex

Oh and Mrs Lyris thank you for being my spell check, I shall enlist your services as and when required:smthumbup:


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> The only response my husband would *elicit* from me if he tried to force a kiss like that would be a good, sharp knee to the groin. Or at least a punch in the chest.
> 
> Mr_brown needs to find out why his wife is so angry that she has decided to punish him like this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everything else aside, that is a good example of actively asserting a boundary. But it is done with physical violence which has no place anywhere let alone within a marriage. As opposed to Mrs Brown’s passive assertion of her boundary which in it’s own way is emotionally violent and just as wounding.

Both types of boundary protection are aggressive. That is, both assertions of the boundary are designed to inflict pain.

I have never understood how any partner believes that consciously and deliberately inflicting pain on their supposed loved one is a good idea or how they ever think it’s going to improve the situation and not make it far worse.

“I will not return your passionate kiss because ……….. …… …. ……… ….. …… ….” would enable Mr Brown to know exactly what the problem is and start working towards a solution. But hey, that would be far to easy and so the trench warfare continues.


Aggression of any sort, passive or active, has no place in a marriage and those that use it make matters one hundred times worse than they need be.


I totally agree that Mr Brown needs to discover why his wife is so very aggressive. It may be due to something he’s done in the past or she may be angry about something else and he’s the one getting it. Her passive aggression may not even be based on anger resulting from a wound. She may just be an emotionally aggressive woman, one who simply does not get angry at all but enjoys hurting people.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Unless my W was giving ME the look that initiates things, a 10 second kiss does not START with any tongue from me.
> 
> When I initiate by surprise - slightly open mouth to slightly open mouth I WAIT until she responds to me physically before my tongue shows up.
> 
> Penetration of a partner - mouth or otherwise - happens AFTER they respond to me.
> 
> I freely conceded some women might be turned on my a super aggressive kissing style.
> 
> And you learn that through the trial and error which happens in the beginning of the R - and gets revised every once in a while as needed.


MEM,
An aggressive act is an act designed to inflict pain and dominate! Great for the S&M folks but surely that is not what you speak of?

Within the context of the thread, surely you mean super Passionate kissing style, not super Aggressive kissing style?

Mr Brown wants his wife to respond to him with passion. Instead she’s responding to him with aggression. He needs to find out why.


----------



## Lyris

Well, I wasn't being entirely serious about the groin/knee thing. But I'm also not at all okay with a man being advised to use his greater physical strength to force a woman to submit sexually. I'm not referring to consensual dom/sub play here obviously.

Elicit and illicit have different meanings. So a spell check won't help, sadly.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> Well, I wasn't being entirely serious about the groin/knee thing. But I'm also not at all okay with a man being advised to use his greater physical strength to force a woman to submit sexually. I'm not referring to consensual dom/sub play here obviously.
> 
> Elicit and illicit have different meanings. So a spell check won't help, sadly.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well said.

Sometimes I wish the women here would help the men out with the things their wives are trying to tell them via their wives behaviour over time and their body language. Without attacking the man for being somewhat dumb and naïve about women.

Very much like Enchantment did.

Something like “Hey Guy, it probably matters not what your kissing technique is, if she was into you she’d kiss you right back. She’s obviously not into you, it’s better to find out why and get it sorted before you even try kissing her again”.

Some of the guys here are working from a manual, not experience. They have information, they don't have knowledge. They don’t seem to be aware they’re not trying to fix a car engine, not a relatively inert object. There’s a woman on the other end of what they are doing and to totally ignore her behaviour and the signals she’s sending him heads him for certain disaster with only one possible result. The exact opposite of what he’s trying to achieve.

It seems some of the guys deeply embrace the thought “Just work on yourself, as you can’t change anyone else”. Which to a large extent is true but by no means the whole truth.

But they seem to modify their behaviour without looking for any feedback on what they are doing. Much like trying to fix a car that wont start without actually listening to the engine. “Hey I keep doing this but it’s not working”. “Did you check the tank to see if there’s any fuel in there?”. “Where’s the tank? Why does it need fuel?”.

“Why didn’t the engine tell me it needs fuel?”. “It did!!!”.


----------



## AFEH

anonymouskitty said:


> You know AFEH sometimes i wonder if you're a teenaged troll





AFEH said:


> And that from a guy called kitty wearing a mask. Masks are massively symbolic of deception. For example, are you male or female? Are you who you purport to be? You infer I’m a troll but you’re far too slow to get the irony.


Of course you are projecting from behind that mask of yours. Which makes you the “teenaged troll”.

Trolls aren’t very welcome here. But as a troll you seem pretty harmless although I guess you’ll get better (at deceit) with experience. But what a way to spend a life.


----------



## Lyris

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

AFEH said:


> Well said.
> 
> Sometimes I wish the women here would help the men out with the things their wives are trying to tell them via their wives behaviour over time and their body language. Without attacking the man for being somewhat dumb and naïve about women.
> 
> Very much like Enchantment did.
> 
> Something like “Hey Guy, it probably matters not what your kissing technique is, if she was into you she’d kiss you right back. She’s obviously not into you, it’s better to find out why and get it sorted before you even try kissing her again”.
> 
> Some of the guys here are working from a manual, not experience. They have information, they don't have knowledge. They don’t seem to be aware they’re not trying to fix a car engine, not a relatively inert object. There’s a woman on the other end of what they are doing and to totally ignore her behaviour and the signals she’s sending him heads him for certain disaster with only one possible result. The exact opposite of what he’s trying to achieve.
> 
> It seems some of the guys deeply embrace the thought “Just work on yourself, as you can’t change anyone else”. Which to a large extent is true but by no means the whole truth.
> 
> But they seem to modify their behaviour without looking for any feedback on what they are doing. Much like trying to fix a car that wont start without actually listening to the engine. “Hey I keep doing this but it’s not working”. “Did you check the tank to see if there’s any fuel in there?”. “Where’s the tank? Why does it need fuel?”.
> 
> “Why didn’t the engine tell me it needs fuel?”. “It did!!!”.


This is so interesting to me.

I never really considered the idea that people could misunderstand what seem to me to be deafeningly clear physical communications of emotion. I can tell if my husband is feeling even slightly sexually inclined as soon as I get into bed, and not from any kind of, um, erectile signaling. Just from the way he is lying and the little muscle adjustments as we move closer or not. I can tell if he's feeling amorous, or loving, or tired or detached. 

Obviously resisting a kiss? Unless its part of a game, continuing to push is the absolute opposite of what anyone should do. How do people not know this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> This is so interesting to me.
> 
> I never really considered the idea that people could misunderstand what seem to me to be deafeningly clear physical communications of emotion. I can tell if my husband is feeling even slightly sexually inclined as soon as I get into bed, and not from any kind of, um, erectile signaling. Just from the way he is lying and the little muscle adjustments as we move closer or not. I can tell if he's feeling amorous, or loving, or tired or detached.
> 
> Obviously resisting a kiss? Unless its part of a game, continuing to push is the absolute opposite of what anyone should do. How do people not know this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now you are becoming Aware. And for me it’s fabulous to see, to witness.

You may like to read some books from Pease International - Body Language | Relationship Advice they explain things far better and in greater detail than I can.

Essentially women have a whole method of communication via body language and behaviour that men just don’t have.

It comes natural to women, it is most unnatural to men. Women’s brains are actually wired to communicate via body language, while men’s brains aren’t. We see speech as direct (although it can be deceptive), body language is so indirect we miss perhaps 90% of it in the worse cases.

One of the things I’ve seen is that some men will say their wives never initiate sex. Whereas often their wives DO initiate sex but they are quite literally blind to it, blind to their wives body language.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris, you communicate with your H in English? Lets say your spoken words are English but your unspoken words, your body “language”, is in Dutch.

The problem in these things some of the time is that not only can’t your H understand a word of Dutch, he doesn’t even know that you are talking to him!

Whereas if other women were observing what was going on 90% of them would interpret your body language correctly!

It’s how you can see what OP’s wife is telling him. We know she doesn’t want to either get passion from him or give passion to him. What we don’t know is why.


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
Passionate is a better word. 

Brown's wife is being aggressive. It is also true that Brown is attempting to amplify the sexuality in his marriage, and his W seems to not want that. 

Her reaction really might be to:
1. his technique/breath - something he can change or
2. the correlation she makes between responding to the kiss and his expectations regarding sex in the near future
3. maybe she truly does not like being intimate with him - including kissing - technique aside - lack of core attraction

What is tough for Brown is that he allowed himself to be starved for almost all the marriage. So at some level she really does not understand why all the fuss now.

And my guess is that if he had pushed this so hard at the beginning before they had any children, perhaps she might have chosen to end the marriage. 

At some level I am uncomfortable with the idea that:
- We had a status quo and during that time had many kids
- Now I insist we change the status quo

Sometimes it is the W demanding the end of a healthy sex life. Sometimes the H demanding the start of it. 





AFEH said:


> MEM,
> An aggressive act is an act designed to inflict pain and dominate! Great for the S&M folks but surely that is not what you speak of?
> 
> Within the context of the thread, surely you mean super Passionate kissing style, not super Aggressive kissing style?
> 
> Mr Brown wants his wife to respond to him with passion. Instead she’s responding to him with aggression. He needs to find out why.


----------



## Mr_brown

Wow... Want getting the emails for some reason... My wife is LD and handles a full workload and has plenty of wifey qualities aside from the sex, she is great but she's content, things were ”rock my world sex” at one point and I want that back. She is completely open and honest. She just has a low libido right now. I am doing my own thing with regards to joining a Men's Group and working out. She has the life, and she knows it. Just not the sex drive. There was one and I want it back. MC has come up and it might be in the near future. It was just a question on how to handle the kiss continue or back off? She just doesn't realize she is waisting her time with the way she shows she loves me!


----------



## AFEH

Mr_brown said:


> Wow... Want getting the emails for some reason... My wife is LD and handles a full workload and has plenty of wifey qualities aside from the sex, she is great but she's content, things were ”rock my world sex” at one point and I want that back. She is completely open and honest. She just has a low libido right now. I am doing my own thing with regards to joining a Men's Group and working out. She has the life, and she knows it. Just not the sex drive. There was one and I want it back. MC has come up and it might be in the near future. It was just a question on how to handle the kiss continue or back off? She just doesn't realize she is waisting her time with the way she shows she loves me!


Your wife prefers the status quo, the current state of affairs. You want to change it.

You wont do that with a ten second kiss or the seemingly apathetic, indifferent and defeatist attitude you have. With that type of attitude she’s just not going to take you seriously.

To me it sounds like you don’t have enough passion in you, at least not enough to change the status quo. Maybe you are pushing down your passion in response to a lack of response from your wife. It happens but it’s a very dangerous thing (for you) to do.

I’ve over 40 years experience in these things. In going on for half a century in a relationship many things happen. Two things shout out at me re your situation. Your wife in an affair or her resentment of you. The “rock my world sex” you desire hasn’t a chance if either those two are in your marriage with you.

Think on it. Neither of these two things were present when you were courting or in your early years of marriage when you had the passionate love life you desired.


----------



## Lyris

AFEH said:


> Lyris, you communicate with your H in English? Lets say your spoken words are English but your unspoken words, your body “language”, is in Dutch.
> 
> The problem in these things some of the time is that not only can’t your H understand a word of Dutch, he doesn’t even know that you are talking to him!
> 
> Whereas if other women were observing what was going on 90% of them would interpret your body language correctly!
> 
> It’s how you can see what OP’s wife is telling him. We know she doesn’t want to either get passion from him or give passion to him. What we don’t know is why.


I am seriously floored by this. 

My husband and I have been together for more than 20 years, since we were 18. I would have sworn that we knew each other backwards and forwards and inside out. We are, mostly, very happy together, and certainly have plenty of chemistry. But there have definitely been times that I have been making what I considered to be very clear invitations to connect or maybe reconnect sexually after an argument and he hasn't responded. I thought he was deliberately ignoring me because he was still pissed off, but maybe he just wasn't getting the message. 

And just recently I had to tell him, plainly, that when I seemed distant or stressed that was the exact time I needed him to approach me and give me a hug, not to withdraw himself. 

I'm going to look at those books you mentioned AFEH. I don't generally lend much credence to the brain differences argument, I don't think the science is compelling or reliable, but I'm willing to give it more consideration. I guess it could just as easily be cultural anyway, in a way it doesn't really matter.

And to the OP, no, don't keep pushing the kiss. Find out if she's willing to address her LD issues. If she's on hormonal birth control, get her off it. Make sure she's getting enough sleep and exercise. Tell her she's beautiful and sexy. Maybe she'd like to read porn stories, there are thousands on the web. 

If you used to have a good sex life, then there's hope you might get it back.

Edited to add; AFEH, I'm going to disagree with you on the reasons for LD. There have been times in my marriage when my libido has been really low, and it had nothing to do with resentment or an affair. For me it was long term hormonal birth control ****ing with my hormones. My testosterone was really low, and it wasn't until that normalised that I felt spontaneous desire again. Prior to that i would still have sex, but only get into it once we started and my husband had worked pretty hard. And when I initiated, it was because I knew in my head that I'd enjoy it. it was such a gradual decline I didn't even really notice until a naturopath asked me about my libido when she read my hormone levels.

I've also read that women generally find it easier to get aroused by a new partner, men by a familiar one. I don't like biological determinism, but that one has a grain of truth in it I think.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Wow, how *****y men here can be. For what it is worth, listen long and hard to AFEH. I have sparred many, many times with him but boy are you missing the mark if you think a forced 10 second kiss is going to incite passion in a woman who resents the very ground you walk on. She is only mentally counting down in her head as to when it will end and will further resent you for forcing her to do something she didn't want to in the first place. Worse, she will lose the last ounce of respect she has for you in that you are so daft in not being able to see that she wants no part of you. 
I don't know exactly what the solution is but running a MAP is not one of them. By the time a woman gets to that point, she is already gone. MAP's might work for the short term but when all is said and done, it is really manipulation and trickery and women see right through that. Sorry Athol, you make some solid points in your book but I really disagree with the MAP concept and I highly doubt that it has long term benefits. I would argue it further dissolves the respect.


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
I do believe browns wife wants the status quo. Not to hurt him, but because she lacks bio-desire/lust and somehow the emotional "desire to please" is not a strong factor in her behavior.

As for you: If your wife's physical passion lasted 40+ years - all I can say is - wow. 


wife prefers the status quo, the current state of affairs. You want to change it.


You wont do that with a ten second kiss or the seemingly apathetic, indifferent and defeatist attitude you have. With that type of attitude she’s just not going to take you seriously.

To me it sounds like you don’t have enough passion in you, at least not enough to change the status quo. Maybe you are pushing down your passion in response to a lack of response from your wife. It happens but it’s a very dangerous thing (for you) to do.

I’ve over 40 years experience in these things. In going on for half a century in a relationship many things happen. Two things shout out at me re your situation. Your wife in an affair or her resentment of you. The “rock my world sex” you desire hasn’t a chance if either those two are in your marriage with you.

Think on it. Neither of these two things were present when you were courting or in your early years of marriage when you had the passionate love life you desired.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> I do believe browns wife wants the status quo. Not to hurt him, but because she lacks bio-desire/lust and somehow the emotional "desire to please" is not a strong factor in her behavior.
> 
> As for you: If your wife's physical passion lasted 40+ years - all I can say is - wow.
> .


She may well lack bio-desire/lust, but that's not the end of it. There are reasons for that which can be addressed, it's not necessarily, or even probably, a permanent state of affairs. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> I do believe browns wife wants the status quo. Not to hurt him, but because she lacks bio-desire/lust and somehow the emotional "desire to please" is not a strong factor in her behavior.
> 
> As for you: If your wife's physical passion lasted 40+ years - all I can say is - wow.
> 
> 
> wife prefers the status quo, the current state of affairs. You want to change it.
> 
> 
> You wont do that with a ten second kiss or the seemingly apathetic, indifferent and defeatist attitude you have. With that type of attitude she’s just not going to take you seriously.
> 
> To me it sounds like you don’t have enough passion in you, at least not enough to change the status quo. Maybe you are pushing down your passion in response to a lack of response from your wife. It happens but it’s a very dangerous thing (for you) to do.
> 
> I’ve over 40 years experience in these things. In going on for half a century in a relationship many things happen. Two things shout out at me re your situation. Your wife in an affair or her resentment of you. The “rock my world sex” you desire hasn’t a chance if either those two are in your marriage with you.
> 
> Think on it. Neither of these two things were present when you were courting or in your early years of marriage when you had the passionate love life you desired.


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

MEM,
Barring physical factors such as what has happened with your dear wife, women don't just lose their drive. It doesn't happen. She may tell you (not you) that she has but AFEH is correct. Deep down there is a ton of anger and resentment and because women typically need the emotional bond to feel sexual (notice I said typically not always), they shut down if they are feeling this way. Forcing a kiss on a woman who simmers with anger just furthers her anger. Frankly, I am shocked at the methods mentioned here. Changing your clothes or losing weight will only interest her in the short term, the underlying sore is still there. It is a Bandaid for a festering wound. 
I agree with AFEH. Once a woman has reached this point, there is no return.


----------



## AFEH

Of course there can be many reasons why Mrs Brown doesn’t want or need a passionate sex life. Hormones and whatever else.

Obviously Mr Brown is never going to discover what the problem is while he’s ego centric, self-centred and focused just on himself trying to get his tongue in her mouth! I was a bit over-the-top with that but only because that’s the impression he gave.

From my experience his wife is withholding. Mrs Brown KNOWS for certain what Mr Brown wants, yet she’s not giving it to him.

He needs to find out why. If he asks and she doesn’t tell him then he’s got a very big problem. If he asks and she tells him but she wont do anything about it, then he’s got a very big problem.


Personally I think he’s got a very big problem simply because there’s a very big problem in their marriage and his wife is not working on it with him!


----------



## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wow, how *****y men here can be. For what it is worth, listen long and hard to AFEH. I have sparred many, many times with him but boy are you missing the mark if you think a forced 10 second kiss is going to incite passion in a woman who resents the very ground you walk on. She is only mentally counting down in her head as to when it will end and will further resent you for forcing her to do something she didn't want to in the first place. Worse, she will lose the last ounce of respect she has for you in that you are so daft in not being able to see that she wants no part of you.
> I don't know exactly what the solution is but running a MAP is not one of them. By the time a woman gets to that point, she is already gone. MAP's might work for the short term but when all is said and done, it is really manipulation and trickery and women see right through that. Sorry Athol, you make some solid points in your book but I really disagree with the MAP concept and I highly doubt that it has long term benefits. I would argue it further dissolves the respect.


There are no ****ty men here on TAM. They don’t last long as do not ****ty women. There are some men here that are naïve and somewhat ignorant of life simply through their lack of experience. They are all trying to learn and improve themselves, to be better men. And for that they are to be applauded.

I will say this just once. I do not want you to associate me with any of your posts ever again.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> As for you: If your wife's physical passion lasted 40+ years - all I can say is - wow.


She was passionate right at the very end MEM. Looked utterly feminine and immensely desirable. Problem is the sex never solved a serious residual problem, it just buried it until the next time it raised its head and I’d had enough and called time after 42 years.

But I do know a lot about passion and desire in a long term marriage. And for sure it goes up and down but it should always be there somewhere ready to be re-ignited with not too much effort.


----------



## Mr_brown

First off there is no affair there is just a lack of lust. So why would she resent me? One could look at this as one big sh!t test that I failed miserably however I love my wife and I know that she loves me. She has stepped up to all kinds of scenarios which prove this fact of love. Just the lack of passion is what I'm trying to adjust. I figured ten seconds a day, give me that and we can go from there! 

There used to be several mentions of hot guys on tv or comments about cute girls etc... But now it's just gone? Start small, ten seconds that was my thought process.


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> I've also read that women generally find it easier to get aroused by a new partner, men by a familiar one. I don't like biological determinism, but that one has a grain of truth in it I think.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you don't believe in gender differences? Ha! Just joking. Believe me I think you are wrong in your thoughts about man and sex!

That’s why the H needs to be creative! But to continue to be creative he needs a wife who responds to his creations. There are many ways to passionate sex in a marriage, but the guy does need a willing wife.

When I read of all the “no sex” problems here and think on my marriage in comparison I’m quite astounded. And for sure I couldn’t have tangoed so much without my wife as a willing partner.

I am a romantic, a lover. I am very passionate in many ways. I am a lover of sex and got plenty of it. I was with a woman who had immensely good values, beliefs and rules as a person and as a wife. One of her values was sex in her marriage. And to fulfil that value one her rules was to never deny me sex no matter what the situation between us was at the time. There are very many reasons why she was by my side for 42 years!

Some women use sex as a weapon in their marriage. My wife never did. Believe me I knew how blessed I was and I truly counted my blessings.


----------



## AFEH

Mr_brown said:


> First off there is no affair there is just a lack of lust. So why would she resent me? One could look at this as one big sh!t test that I failed miserably however I love my wife and I know that she loves me. She has stepped up to all kinds of scenarios which prove this fact of love. Just the lack of passion is what I'm trying to adjust. I figured ten seconds a day, give me that and we can go from there!
> 
> There used to be several mentions of hot guys on tv or comments about cute girls etc... But now it's just gone? Start small, ten seconds that was my thought process.


I could say all sorts of things. Chase her round the house, put her over your knee, take her for a walk through the woods or for a picnic under a tree in a cornfield. Romance her, you know all those things you used to do when you were courting. But I don’t know you and I don’t know your wife.

Test your wife! By asking her to go with you to see a sex therapist. If she says no she failed your test and you know for a fact have a seriously big problem on your hands that no “technique” will ever solve.

But at least you will know you have a problem that is nothing to do with technique.


----------



## Lyris

AFEH said:


> But you don't believe in gender differences? Ha! Just joking. Believe me I think you are wrong in your thoughts about man and sex!
> 
> That’s why the H needs to be creative! But to continue to be creative he needs a wife who responds to his creations. There are many ways to passionate sex in a marriage, but the guy does need a willing wife.
> 
> When I read of all the “no sex” problems here and think on my marriage in comparison I’m quite astounded. And for sure I couldn’t have tangoed so much without my wife as a willing partner.
> 
> I am a romantic, a lover. I am very passionate in many ways. I am a lover of sex and got plenty of it. I was with a woman who had immensely good values, beliefs and rules as a person and as a wife. One of her values was sex in her marriage. And to fulfil that value one her rules was to never deny me sex no matter what the situation between us was at the time. There are very many reasons why she was by my side for 42 years!
> 
> Some women use sex as a weapon in their marriage. My wife never did. Believe me I knew how blessed I was and I truly counted my blessings.


How am I wrong? On the body language? I'm intrigued, what other things am I wrong about? That's why I like coming here, all my other forums are pretty well entirely female.

I have a similar philosophy on sex in marriage as your wife. Some of the things I read on here astound me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Lyris said:


> How am I wrong? On the body language? I'm intrigued, what other things am I wrong about? That's why I like coming here, all my other forums are pretty well entirely female.
> 
> I have a similar philosophy on sex in marriage as your wife. Some of the things I read on here astound me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wasn’t about body language. It was your comment about men finding it easier to get aroused by a familiar partner.

There is a massive difference between having sex with the woman you are in love with and committed to and a woman you are not in love with and not committed to.

But I think a lot of men are ready to go most anytime with a woman they find attractive and desirable. If they’re married it’s what they value about their wife that stops them.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

Mr_brown said:


> She has stepped up to all kinds of scenarios which prove this fact of love. Just the lack of passion is what I'm trying to adjust. I figured ten seconds a day, give me that and we can go from there!


Mr. Brown -

Lots of conclusions based on very limited information in this thread and I don't see much good advice.

Since you read NMMNG, you understand the whole concept of being attached to the outcome. Right now, you are totally attached to an expectation that a 10 second kiss is going to reignite your wife's passion. Let go of the outcome.

You can't force your wife to feel passion for you. You can make yourself more desirable by being authentic and having integrity.

You can become safe enough that your wife might tell you more about what is bothering her. It sounds like something is.

Back off of the kissing game and take a genuine interest in your wife. Can you have a conversation with her about passion and your relationship without her becoming defensive?

Lastly, do you resent your wife because of the decrease in passion? I know you said you quit whining - any resentments need to go as well.

Good luck.

FNG


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> There are no ****ty men here on TAM. They don’t last long as do not ****ty women. There are some men here that are naïve and somewhat ignorant of life simply through their lack of experience. They are all trying to learn and improve themselves, to be better men. And for that they are to be applauded.
> 
> I will say this just once. I do not want you to associate me with any of your posts ever again.


There are plenty of *****y men on TAM. I (sadly) agreed with you but because I was the one to agree, suddenly this is about naive men and ignorant life, nevermind that you hurled the insults at those so called naive men.

You are a bully and I am regretful that I even agreed with you. Must be the radiation making me fuzzy headed. I should have known the level you'd go to. Don't worry about me associating myself with you ever again. You are so far beneath me.


----------



## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> There are plenty of *****y men on TAM. I (sadly) agreed with you but because I was the one to agree, suddenly this is about naive men and ignorant life, nevermind that you hurled the insults at those so called naive men.
> 
> You are a bully and I am regretful that I even agreed with you. Must be the radiation making me fuzzy headed. I should have known the level you'd go to. Don't worry about me associating myself with you ever again. You are so far beneath me.


You have proven time after time that you cannot abide by boundaries asserted by other people. I predict that they will yet again have to be enforced on you. Fortunately by way of your own behaviour it will not take long. You will never learn. People like you never do.


----------



## the guy

Mr. brown,
You will be surprised how open there mouth gets when you pull their hair back. I have found that hand cuffs will help save your cheek, but if your quick enough you can avoid the slap without the cuffs....LOL


----------



## Lyris

AFEH said:


> Wasn’t about body language. It was your comment about men finding it easier to get aroused by a familiar partner.
> 
> There is a massive difference between having sex with the woman you are in love with and committed to and a woman you are not in love with and not committed to.
> 
> But I think a lot of men are ready to go most anytime with a woman they find attractive and desirable. If they’re married it’s what they value about their wife that stops them.


Oh, okay. That was just something I read about, I think it was in this book, www.sexatdawn.com. It offers it as an explanation as to why so many women go off sex in long term relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Bright,
It dissolves respect when applied without regard to feedback. When someone is absolutely not responding to your sexual initiation - they are ASKING you to stop via their non-response. 

In those situations:
- It seems you aren't respecting their desire not to
- You lack the self control to step back, assess and change your approach

I think many men find the idea of asking their wives - do you like this better, or "that" better, to be some foolish exercise in self emasculation. 

Funny thing though, when my W first used that giving me a full body massage long ago I LOVED it. At least in western culture, giving someone a non-stop set of instructions in how to touch you - feels very awkward. But when your partner is saying "I love you and want to make this an incredible experience for you - so TELL ME - what you like best. Hell that isn't awkward, that feels like being on top of the world. 

And of course I reciprocated. Everyone has different touch pattern preferences just as they have different food preferences. Funny thing there - I ALSO don't feel emasculated when I cook something and ask my W if she likes it more/less cooked, more or less spicy, etc. 

Since when is making the effort to learn your partner a lack of masculinity? 

And these situations are ALL asymmetric. Meaning it is FAR harder for her to volunteer feedback when it is not asked for than it is for her to answer a sincere question. 




Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wow, how *****y men here can be. For what it is worth, listen long and hard to AFEH. I have sparred many, many times with him but boy are you missing the mark if you think a forced 10 second kiss is going to incite passion in a woman who resents the very ground you walk on. She is only mentally counting down in her head as to when it will end and will further resent you for forcing her to do something she didn't want to in the first place. Worse, she will lose the last ounce of respect she has for you in that you are so daft in not being able to see that she wants no part of you.
> I don't know exactly what the solution is but running a MAP is not one of them. By the time a woman gets to that point, she is already gone. MAP's might work for the short term but when all is said and done, it is really manipulation and trickery and women see right through that. Sorry Athol, you make some solid points in your book but I really disagree with the MAP concept and I highly doubt that it has long term benefits. I would argue it further dissolves the respect.


----------



## MEM2020

Bright,
I really, truly do think he should ask her. I agree he should not continue this behavior. 

And thank you for being so tactful with me. I wish I knew why my W's desire is so low. No - not that - it used to be low but she really did get hot within 5-10 minutes. I wish I knew why she rarely gets aroused now. 

She does wish to get to the point we can resume regular sex and saw a specialist (without any prompting from me) who recommended a set of dilators. They start small and get slowly larger. He also told her that some women start out prone to this problem. For instance - she could never use tampons - even as a teen - they hurt. 

If you wish a quick chuckle - her version of sex is tennis. She is crazily addicted. I mistakenly rejected her request the weekend before last and her fury was that of a man denied sex when he has been "led on" and was fully expecting to have it. She gets a huge dopamine rush from it. 

So she refers to our "date nights" - which is every night I am home - as tennicourse. More accurate to call it tenni-job. Oh well....

If she hurts an ankle/knee/etc. I am going to have to find some other means of providing her a dopamine rush else I will choose to reduce our horizontal schedule.

I know this may sound odd but by now I guess I have posted so many odd things:
1. The tennis thing creates a positive dynamic that emerged within her head without any feedback from me. She looks forward to it all day - is totally addicted. AND she is highly sensitive to our somewhat different skill levels. So she worries (which is mostly silly) that I am bored/going to get bored of playing with her because I am a better player. The truth is she is fun to play with, and I love the exercise. And she is good enough that I am NOT bored. But after tennis she feels a desire to please me. 

So tennis is the main flavor of foreplay in MEMhouse these days. 

2. She still seems REALLY into me. And I am REALLY into her. The sex thing makes me a bit insecure - and with rare exception I keep that to myself as it (insecurity) is my problem, not hers. 






Therealbrighteyes said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MEM,
Barring physical factors such as what has happened with your dear wife, women don't just lose their drive. It doesn't happen. She may tell you (not you) that she has but AFEH is correct. Deep down there is a ton of anger and resentment and because women typically need the emotional bond to feel sexual (notice I said typically not always), they shut down if they are feeling this way. Forcing a kiss on a woman who simmers with anger just furthers her anger. Frankly, I am shocked at the methods mentioned here. Changing your clothes or losing weight will only interest her in the short term, the underlying sore is still there. It is a Bandaid for a festering wound. 
I agree with AFEH. Once a woman has reached this point, there is no return.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> You make such a demeaning comment and you think my ego isn’t going to be hurt?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> What did you expect me to do? Roll up in a ball like a hedgehog or something? Believe me, that is not my way.


I expected you to :sleeping:


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I expected you to :sleeping:


That is so far off topic it's on the moon. It shows a total and absolute lack of respect for the OP and breaks forum rules.

Look. Your wingman has just got back from an extended ban and immediately you both resume with the exact same behaviours as before. Just doesn’t work playing the role of the rescuer/hero with people like you two no matter how good the intent. For goodness sake respect their decision and help and don’t let them down. Because I doubt she’ll ever get back again if she does.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> It dissolves respect when applied without regard to feedback. When someone is absolutely not responding to your sexual initiation - they are ASKING you to stop via their non-response.
> 
> In those situations:
> - It seems you aren't respecting their desire not to
> - You lack the self control to step back, assess and change your approach
> 
> I think many men find the idea of asking their wives - do you like this better, or "that" better, to be some foolish exercise in self emasculation.
> 
> Funny thing though, when my W first used that giving me a full body massage long ago I LOVED it. At least in western culture, giving someone a non-stop set of instructions in how to touch you - feels very awkward. But when your partner is saying "I love you and want to make this an incredible experience for you - so TELL ME - what you like best. Hell that isn't awkward, that feels like being on top of the world.
> 
> And of course I reciprocated. Everyone has different touch pattern preferences just as they have different food preferences. Funny thing there - I ALSO don't feel emasculated when I cook something and ask my W if she likes it more/less cooked, more or less spicy, etc.
> 
> Since when is making the effort to learn your partner a lack of masculinity?
> 
> And these situations are ALL asymmetric. Meaning it is FAR harder for her to volunteer feedback when it is not asked for than it is for her to answer a sincere question.


I think you misunderstood what I was saying or maybe I was unclear. What I am saying is using the 10 second kiss or other tactics to spark relations again in a spouse who has already shown they don't have any interest is wasted time. There is nothing and I mean nothing that will spark that again. You can MAP or do whatever but the bottom line remains that once a woman is done, she is done. 

You have never gotten to that point in your marriage so I don't think you could ever understand. I was at that point. When you are done, no kissing, no hand holding or no amount of love will change things. There is far too much water under the bridge if you will and the pain is too great. A set of circumstances have changed us and I am grateful I didn't throw my marriage away. Still, baring illness, when a woman is done....she is done.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> I really, truly do think he should ask her. I agree he should not continue this behavior.
> 
> And thank you for being so tactful with me. I wish I knew why my W's desire is so low. No - not that - it used to be low but she really did get hot within 5-10 minutes. I wish I knew why she rarely gets aroused now.
> 
> She does wish to get to the point we can resume regular sex and saw a specialist (without any prompting from me) who recommended a set of dilators. They start small and get slowly larger. He also told her that some women start out prone to this problem. For instance - she could never use tampons - even as a teen - they hurt.
> 
> If you wish a quick chuckle - her version of sex is tennis. She is crazily addicted. I mistakenly rejected her request the weekend before last and her fury was that of a man denied sex when he has been "led on" and was fully expecting to have it. She gets a huge dopamine rush from it.
> 
> So she refers to our "date nights" - which is every night I am home - as tennicourse. More accurate to call it tenni-job. Oh well....
> 
> If she hurts an ankle/knee/etc. I am going to have to find some other means of providing her a dopamine rush else I will choose to reduce our horizontal schedule.
> 
> I know this may sound odd but by now I guess I have posted so many odd things:
> 1. The tennis thing creates a positive dynamic that emerged within her head without any feedback from me. She looks forward to it all day - is totally addicted. AND she is highly sensitive to our somewhat different skill levels. So she worries (which is mostly silly) that I am bored/going to get bored of playing with her because I am a better player. The truth is she is fun to play with, and I love the exercise. And she is good enough that I am NOT bored. But after tennis she feels a desire to please me.
> 
> So tennis is the main flavor of foreplay in MEMhouse these days.
> 
> 2. She still seems REALLY into me. And I am REALLY into her. The sex thing makes me a bit insecure - and with rare exception I keep that to myself as it (insecurity) is my problem, not hers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEM,
> Barring physical factors such as what has happened with your dear wife, women don't just lose their drive. It doesn't happen. She may tell you (not you) that she has but AFEH is correct. Deep down there is a ton of anger and resentment and because women typically need the emotional bond to feel sexual (notice I said typically not always), they shut down if they are feeling this way. Forcing a kiss on a woman who simmers with anger just furthers her anger. Frankly, I am shocked at the methods mentioned here. Changing your clothes or losing weight will only interest her in the short term, the underlying sore is still there. It is a Bandaid for a festering wound.
> I agree with AFEH. Once a woman has reached this point, there is no return.


[/QUOTE]

MEM,

Know this, I would NEVER, EVER, laugh at you and your wife. You two are the very embodiment of love and devotion. You two have found a way to make it work and shine as an example of what true commitment means. 

I can assure you that she is in to you. No doubt. Any woman who isn't in to sex but still wants to make sure her husband is happy, is in to you and loves you. Trust me on this one MEM. You found a keeper and she did in you. In terms of tennis, you two have a deuce.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> That is so far off topic it's on the moon. It shows a total and absolute lack of respect for the OP and breaks forum rules.
> 
> Look. Your wingman has just got back from an extended ban and immediately you both resume with the exact same behaviours as before. Just doesn’t work playing the role of the rescuer/hero with people like you two no matter how good the intent. For goodness sake respect their decision and help and don’t let them down. Because I doubt she’ll ever get back again if she does.


Wingwoman, Bob, wingwoman!

However, my belief that you have no idea what you're talking about, project the crap out of everything, and are a typical man's man has never wavered. I'm just pointing that out. If the OP has an issue with that, I'd gladly delete it.


----------



## alphaomega

Trenton said:


> Wingwoman, Bob, wingwoman!
> 
> However, my belief that you have no idea what you're talking about, project the crap out of everything, and are a typical man's man has never wavered. I'm just pointing that out. If the OP has an issue with that, I'd gladly delete it.


Welcome back, Jersey!

Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Wingwoman, Bob, wingwoman!
> 
> However, my belief that you have no idea what you're talking about, project the crap out of everything, and are a typical man's man has never wavered. I'm just pointing that out. If the OP has an issue with that, I'd gladly delete it.


There you go. An absolutely flagrant, barefaced, deliberate, brazen, unashamed and deliberate disregard of forum rules on two counts.


----------



## Mr_brown

I really didn't expect this discussion to get that out of hand... I will take all of your comments and suggestions ” with a grain of salt” LOL... As stated earlier I think MC is the next step... Any thing else I've ever asked from her, and there have been pretty big gambles, she's come through and backed me 100%. My thought process was, it's ten seconds, somewhere to start and see where it goes. Well about 3 seconds in I was taken back by what I thought would happen. So I tried the next day and triedthe next day. This wasn't my only attempt I've ran through the five love languages and several other TAM recommendations... I like the NMMNG/manning up with a little Athol approach because it suits my personality and makes me a happier me!


----------



## AFEH

These things are mostly a journey, a journey of evolutionary transformation that doesn’t really have an end.

Darwin’s theory of evolution is applicable within one person’s life time. For example what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. At least that’s the theory.

You have a high level of awareness and a lack of ego centric behaviour. I don’t know if you’ll get much out of Anthony de Mello’s Awareness but if you read it he will at least confirm to you what’s going on and present you with a really big picture of the changes in a person’s life. There are no really quick fixes and we learn mostly by our mistakes and through trial and error.


----------



## Mr_brown

AFEH said:


> These things are mostly a journey, a journey of evolutionary transformation that doesn’t really have an end.
> 
> Darwin’s theory of evolution is applicable within one person’s life time. For example what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. At least that’s the theory.
> 
> You have a high level of awareness and a lack of ego centric behaviour. I don’t know if you’ll get much out of Anthony de Mello’s Awareness but if you read it he will at least confirm to you what’s going on and present you with a really big picture of the changes in a person’s life. There are no really quick fixes and we learn mostly by our mistakes and through trial and error.


That's why I thought perhaps I could chisel away at it ten second a day...looks like I need a different chisel.


----------



## MEM2020

I think browns wife loves him. They regularly have sex. 
So in that regard a 10 second kiss doesn't seem like it is a high risk or pushy thing.







Therealbrighteyes said:


> I think you misunderstood what I was saying or maybe I was unclear. What I am saying is using the 10 second kiss or other tactics to spark relations again in a spouse who has already shown they don't have any interest is wasted time. There is nothing and I mean nothing that will spark that again. You can MAP or do whatever but the bottom line remains that once a woman is done, she is done.
> 
> You have never gotten to that point in your marriage so I don't think you could ever understand. I was at that point. When you are done, no kissing, no hand holding or no amount of love will change things. There is far too much water under the bridge if you will and the pain is too great. A set of circumstances have changed us and I am grateful I didn't throw my marriage away. Still, baring illness, when a woman is done....she is done.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr_brown

MEM it's been a roller coaster


----------



## AFEH

Mr_brown said:


> That's why I thought perhaps I could chisel away at it ten second a day...looks like I need a different chisel.


It really does take two to tango. Maybe explain to your wife that you need an outlet for your passions and desires and ask her if she'd like to be your lover so you can romance her and have fun together. You do need an outlet for your passion and it may help if you install a little uncertainty in her. It’s good that you have her feeling so exceedingly secure in your relationship with her, but that does have its down side as well. One of them being she wont return a kiss!

At the same time never underestimate the cancerous like properties resentment brings to a marriage. You do need to know if its there in yours.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> There you go. An absolutely flagrant, barefaced, deliberate, brazen, unashamed and deliberate disregard of forum rules on two counts.


You're really good with those synonyms aren't you?


----------



## heartsbeating

Mr_brown said:


> Staying consistent? How do you respond to not getting the ten second kiss without her ”pretending to like it”?
> I'm trying to implement the ten second kiss and she's not letting herself enjoy it. She won't even open her mouth, I come back with a devilish grin and say ”you need to pretend to like it” and she says ” that was a ten second kiss” so what is the correct way to respond.
> 
> I generally just go about MY business, next day ten second kiss same thing! I feel like I should keep on trying, it's only a kiss. No response, go about my business. Is this, in the manospheres eye, the correct response?


I have read most of this thread. There's some interesting and helpful responses here! And then there's mine lol.

I don't know your back-story, but props for having the balls to attempt change. I understand being jovial with your response, and I do not mean this in criticism of you, rather it's an observation of perhaps where she is at ......it kind of struck me "you need to pretend you like it." 

Seems to me, with resentment on board, the very thing that may first need to happen is for her to let go of any pretenses. She will need to deal with her resentment, partly with you, and mostly within herself. Do you know why she's resentful?


----------



## Mr_brown

Hearts... I've never thought about the resentment until this thread and I'm not sure. She is very content with our situation. And I am as well to an extent. I want more physically. The pretend you like it is from Athol's website. We have been through a lot but we have come out on top, right where we both want to be. Looking closely at her behavior, she trends to focus on little details where I focus on the big picture which results in us complimenting each other perfectly. But I think somehow these little details to her are overwhelming? But I'm not sure? It just seems like she always has something else on her to do list until she's exhausted. I don't want to say that I just thought of this. I get her gifts like massages and whenever she needs a break to get her nails done or go out with friends it's no big deal she allows me the same treatment, but being physical is the last thing on her mind.

Just trying to remind her that marriage is physical.


----------



## heartsbeating

Mr_brown said:


> Hearts... I've never thought about the resentment until this thread and I'm not sure. She is very content with our situation. And I am as well to an extent. I want more physically. The pretend you like it is from Athol's website. We have been through a lot but we have come out on top, right where we both want to be. Looking closely at her behavior, she trends to focus on little details where I focus on the big picture which results in us complimenting each other perfectly. But I think somehow these little details to her are overwhelming? But I'm not sure? It just seems like she always has something else on her to do list until she's exhausted. I don't want to say that I just thought of this. I get her gifts like massages and whenever she needs a break to get her nails done or go out with friends it's no big deal she allows me the same treatment, but being physical is the last thing on her mind.
> 
> Just trying to remind her that marriage is physical.


Aha...... apologies, I thought I read in here there was resentment from her. Thanks for filling me in on the 10-second rule and the jovial reply part. 

The positive in your relationship sounds ...well, positive! Has she always been this way with regards to being physical? Based on what you wrote it sounds like there is avoidance on her part. Through her filling her time, and neglecting your need in that way. Perhaps not consciously, but it's there. I like AFEH's suggestion of telling her you want to be her lover and share in romance and fun. If there's something preventing her from sharing that with you, the motivation, it does seem to me that'd need to be addressed. The spouse would need to be somewhat open and willing I'd imagine?


----------



## Mr_brown

@hearts, 
No she has not always been like this. We used to have a really really good time together. Over time it has dwindled and as stated before it's roller coaster like, the highs are no where near the highs that they were and the lows are lower and longer dry spells.


----------



## AFEH

Mr_brown said:


> @hearts,
> No she has not always been like this. We used to have a really really good time together. Over time it has dwindled and as stated before it's roller coaster like, the highs are no where near the highs that they were and the lows are lower and longer dry spells.


Believe me your wife knows if she is resentful or not. And for certain she knows exactly why she’s not returning your passionate kiss.

Have you asked her why?

You may also want to ask her if she is resentful. Resentment is something some woman hide for “future use”. They are secret it about so even if she isn’t resentful she may well not answer you honestly. So watch her closely when you ask the question to see if she’s being honest with you.

If she is resentful and honest about it, truthful in her answer, then you could quite well open up a whole can of worms. But the can does need opening because your wife’s resentment of you will slowly but surely kill your marriage because withholding her passion is just a beginning of what’s to come.

It’s what passive aggressive, resentful people do. They withhold their love, their loving actions. And the withholding of a passionate kiss is a massive withholding of a loving action.

It may not be resentment. She may have a lover who she releases her passion with. Her passion may be in at “low tide” at the moment as women do go through these things.


----------



## alphaomega

Brown...

Let's assume your wife isn't resentful or thinking about someone else. Try this.....

Do the ten second kiss for a week. Even if she doesn't return it....don't let it bother you. Be jovial and happy. When she turns away, give her a playful smack on her butt.

After a week, stop doing the 10 seconds. Just do it for maybe two seconds. But always be happy and upbeat. Still give her a playful bum smack once in a while. Or walk up behind her in the kitchen, grab her waist, and kiss the back of her neck, and then walk away. Keep doing little things like that for a further week or two. Once in a while you can just grab her azz and pull her in for a kiss. Then let it go. Walk away. Smiling.

Always remember to be upbeat and happy all the time. See if her behavior changes after a few weeks. It may not be resentment but it may be something else on her mind. I don't know your history, but the goal is to make her feel relaxed and comfortable again. See if her passion starts to return.

Hell...after a few weeks, just go up to her and say..."upstairs, now!". With a smile on your face.

Of course, if this doesn't work, then maybe there is something deeper going on in her state of mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> Brown...
> 
> Let's assume your wife isn't resentful or thinking about someone else. Try this.....
> 
> Do the ten second kiss for a week. Even if she doesn't return it....don't let it bother you. Be jovial and happy. When she turns away, give her a playful smack on her butt.
> 
> After a week, stop doing the 10 seconds. Just do it for maybe two seconds. But always be happy and upbeat. Still give her a playful bum smack once in a while. Or walk up behind her in the kitchen, grab her waist, and kiss the back of her neck, and then walk away. Keep doing little things like that for a further week or two. Once in a while you can just grab her azz and pull her in for a kiss.  Then let it go. Walk away. Smiling.
> 
> Always remember to be upbeat and happy all the time. See if her behavior changes after a few weeks. It may not be resentment but it may be something else on her mind. I don't know your history, but the goal is to make her feel relaxed and comfortable again. See if her passion starts to return.
> 
> Hell...after a few weeks, just go up to her and say..."upstairs, now!". With a smile on your face.
> 
> Of course, if this doesn't work, then maybe there is something deeper going on in her state of mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don’t think that all that will do is re-enforce his wife’s negative behaviour and make her even more entrenched than she is now?

Don’t you think he needs to find her positive behaviour and re-enforce that? Why on earth keep going for known negative responses?


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## alphaomega

Think of this as a test, in a way. He's trying to determine why his wif is acting the way she is. This has the potential to get her relaxed and comfortable assuming the behavior isn't something more entrenched in her current state of mind. Call it using a soft sell. 

There comes a time, though, when he will have to decide upon rolling a hard six if her behavior doesn't change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

But surely to keep on trying to do something that the other person very obviously doesn’t want you to do is an act of aggression?


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## alphaomega

It's his wife. He's supposed to do things like this. Assuming the relationship is healthy. It's her not changing her behavior that he wants to keep an eye on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartsbeating

I'm of the opinion that if she's resisting/uninterested in the 10-second kiss, it has the potential for her to feel resentful about the kiss itself. If he's ignoring that she's not into it but keeps doing it anyway, that doesn't sound healthy to me. I'd be more inclined to suggest the opposite in this case. I get why the 10-second rule is encouraged but if it feels forced and she's unwilling, that doesn't seem to equate to positive emotional association to me. 

I think open the can of worms, if there is one. 

H and I were at the market over the weekend. We were talking about what else we needed to get. I was saying "We need to get bread and milk..." And he said "OH! You know what we need to do right now?!" Surprised by his tone, I asked "What?" He said "Kiss!" And pulled me in close. It was a short kiss, amidst the crowds, but the element of surprise in that moment left me smiling.


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## MEM2020

AO,
He is supposed to do things which create passion - yes. Her response to his kiss is 180 opposite of passion. What I find astonishing in these situations is the extreme resistance to asking simple questions of your spouse to learn them better.




alphaomega said:


> It's his wife. He's supposed to do things like this. Assuming the relationship is healthy. It's her not changing her behavior that he wants to keep an eye on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Yes, stir the desire in your wife and arouse the passion within her. Gotta find her hot buttons, what turns her on and gets those juices flowing. Sounds like a ten second kiss is a big turn off for her, having the exact opposite effect. But then again it could be a turn on for her but she’s darned if she’s going to let it happen. Could well be a shet test, an action design to wound and cause pain.

We all have things called erogenous zones, hot buttons, areas of the body able to feel pleasure. Two of my wife’s were her shoulders, she’d more or less melt when caressed the right ways and believe it or not her throat. For me to put the palm of my hand across the front of her throat was a big turn on for her and an exceptionally intimate thing to do.

It is every husband’s duty to be the Romantic Lover and discover all of his wife’s erogenous zones. What a chore!


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## Lyris

Hey, has anyone seen the new episode of Louie with Louis CK? There is an hilarious illustration of male/female communication in the first five minutes.

I've been thinking about unspoken communication, and usually I am really good at reading how my husband is feeling, but in recent years there's was a long stretch where I totally misinterpreted everything and missed some really big signs. I think it was because I was focussed on what I was going through and pretty well obsessed with myself. Luckily I woke up in time and we pulled it out of the fire.

Sorry for the hijack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr_brown

No problem lyris... Hopefully it's on demand, I'll check it out


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