# New User Warning: May Contain Copious Amounts of Venting



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Hi Everyone,
I am new to this forum and was hoping to get a few things off my chest and hopefully get some advice or support. I post on a number of other boards around the web but I'm not ready to air my dirty marriage laundry where anyone knows me. I've been reading through some of the threads here and there seems to be a lot of supportive posters and a lot of you with problems similar to mine. Hopefully, this post won't be too much of a rant but I have been holding things back for a few years, so no promises! 

Basically, I feel like when our marriage was younger, I could handle his personality better but now I'm starting to feel crushed under the weight of his criticisms and outbursts. 

It's hard to articulate exactly what the issues are so maybe a few anecdotes will illustrate things. I'm almost embarrassed to post these. I feel like the person you marry (or choose to have a relationship with for really any period of time) is a reflection of yourself. When I think about some of the things I've experienced over the past 15 years and the fact that I am still with him, I start to think that something is wrong with me for sticking around for so long. That being said, however, I have the two most awesome children ever and even though my husband is very tough on them, he is a very loving father. Thinking about our family breaking up leaves me breathless, literally. I would never want to take my boys away from their father but I don't know if we are going to make it. 

What prompted me to start talking about this was an incident that just happened this weekend. We were about 45 minutes into a 6-hour trip. One of my sons was with us and we were on our way to pick up our other son from camp (he'd been gone for a month and my husband was beyond excited to see him again). We started talking about the stock market and how much stocks cost and how much you would gain if a stock went up, so some math questions came up. Well, apparently my son and I were not answering his math questions quickly enough and he started getting really mad. I tried to explain that sometimes I actually have to, you know, put some thought into doing mental math. And he was like "why do you have to think about a problem like 6 x 3?" and I was like "that was absolutely not the question you asked. you asked about stocks going up in value meaning you have to know what the original investment was, how many shares you own and how much you earned when it went up". He said "it's the same thing! they are both just as simple." And here is the basic problem: he thinks he said A and when I say "I heard B", he totally blows up at me (or my boys) and says that we don't listen to him. He was screaming at me and eventually turned the car around and took himself back home (my son and I went on the trip without him). Now I know that he felt bad because when we got home, he had done a bunch of chores around the house (which he rarely does). However, the bottom line is that I cannot take his yelling over stupid **** anymore. And yes, that was all over a math problem. He basically called me stupid, too. 

Then this morning he got all bent out of shape because I asked him to do me a favor. Frankly, I rarely ask him to do anything because he complains about it so much. He doesn't like to go out (his increasing reclusiveness is also becoming an issue) but in this case, he was already going to the store where I needed to return something. This was something that I bought for our son who was going with him. Seems like a no-brainer to save me a trip. But then he starts asking all these questions about why it needs to be returned and what's wrong with it and did you google this or google that. It was pretty clear he just didn't want to do it. So again, he's basically berating me for not having every detail about exactly why I need this thing returned. Why can't he just ****ing return it for me when he's going to be at the store anyway?! 

The other problem I have (which may be mine - I'm not sure but I could use some insight) is that I am the one who works and he doesn't and I really don't feel like he does enough around the house given that he doesn't work. I work from home so I am always here, which means that I have the time (usually) to help with chores and errands. But if I don't have the time, he still expects me to do it. So I do all the grocery shopping (because of the aforementioned aversion to leaving the house), I cook all the meals, I take care of all shopping (like right now, it's back-to-school time and I am taking both boys shopping for all their clothes and supplies), I make sure all the bills are paid, I take care of any kind of service appointments (lawn care, pest control, appliance repair, etc.), I take the boys to anything they need (practice, doctor's appointments, friend's houses). I just feel like I deserve a little more consideration for the fact that I have a job. Now I know that I could just ask him to do all these things but I've given up. He gives me so much **** about it that I've stopped asking. I think he's got some serious social anxiety issues. He used to see a therapist but she made him wait one time, so he stopped going (he's all about giving up on people after one mistake). 

I'm not really sure where to go from here. I don't want us to break up but I really feel like we have a serious communication problem. The more I bring it up, the more upset he gets. Then I end up capitulating and then feeling like crap because things never change. 

At least I feel better having said all this.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

What is the reason he doesn't have a job?


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Social anxiety is quite crippling. The thought of leaving the house when you aren't mentally prepared to do so can send a person with SA into a tizzy. They will get angry and combative if they feel forced. He may have wanted to go get your son from camp deep down, but his anxiety kind of took over and getting into a fight with you got him out of it. Picking fights is a manipulative tool to avoid people.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Hicks said:


> What is the reason he doesn't have a job?


Good question. He used to work but when our first son was about a year old, he was laid off. Then I was offered a position that would pay a lot more money but would require travel. (I don't work for that company anymore, and I don't have to travel anymore either.) So he decided to stay home. Financially, we can afford it (although it would be nice to have more money, but isn't it always!). I think the reason he doesn't go back to work is that he just cannot deal with people. He is easily excitable and easily stressed. I cannot imagine him sticking to a work schedule. He's pretty inflexible. This has all gotten worse since he's been at home. If I can get him out of the house and talking to people, he can enjoy himself. But before he even leaves to do anything, he's convinced himself that he will be surrounded by idiots and jerks and then just doesn't go anywhere. So he can't get a job because he's sure his boss will be an ass or they will ask him to do something he doesn't want to do and he'll have to quit or they won't let him work when he wants to. And then I will have to listen to him rant and rave every day (he does this a lot already) when he comes home (I know he's not yelling about me but it still feels like he is yelling at me and it's emotionally draining). And yes, these are all things that 99% of us deal with every day, but it's just too much for him. 

On a side note (and another rant I warned you all about), he likes to tell me how I should handle things at work. He doesn't seem to understand that as the only person with an income in this family, I don't have the luxury of calling a coworker an ass****.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> Social anxiety is quite crippling. The thought of leaving the house when you aren't mentally prepared to do so can send a person with SA into a tizzy. They will get angry and combative if they feel forced. He may have wanted to go get your son from camp deep down, but his anxiety kind of took over and getting into a fight with you got him out of it. Picking fights is a manipulative tool to avoid people.


Yes! This! I do think that he was very emotional about going to pick up our son and it came out as anger. Although this was not a forced situation which is why I was so concerned when that all happened. What you are saying above makes a lot of sense in situations where I ask him to do me favors (although I shouldn't call them favors since I don't feel like grocery shopping for the family should be considered a favor to me).

I guess the question is what to do about it. I'm not sure he will go to therapy (although I really think he needs it) and I don't know how much longer I can continue to do everything around here. Plus, it's lonely. I feel like a single mom a lot of times because I am the only one who ever goes to events with the boys, and he never wants to go out with us. Going to dinner as a family is very trying because the first time someone drops a fork, he's all on edge because now everyone is looking at us!


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

He isn't in a controlled environment, which is what he prefers, when he leaves your home. I'm sure it's frustrating. Unless he gets some professional help, you will need to be excruciatingly patient with him.

I had a Grandmother like this (minus the anger, I never saw her flip out). She hardly EVER went anywhere. My Grandfather did all the shopping... and when us grandkids were around she was happy to send us out on errands for her. Hosting things in her home was something she preferred.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> On a side note (and another rant I warned you all about), he likes to tell me how I should handle things at work. He doesn't seem to understand that as the only person with an income in this family, I don't have the luxury of calling a coworker an ass****.


LOL.

I would probably not share work issues with him because really, he's not going to be sympathetic in the way you would like him to be. He handles things with aggression (with you and the kids) and to him that's a way to get control. Well the world we live in doesn't bend the way we want just because we said so. Hostility and anger put people off and can get you into some hot water. He doesn't live in the real world. The house is his environment and much easier to control and determine outcomes in.


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

If he doesn't have a job and doesn't do anything around the house, what does he DO all day? What are you getting out of this marriage? What is he doing to take care of you?


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It sounds like he is mentally ill.
I would recommend you get some individual counseling, where a professional can make a better judgement of whether he is ill or not, and what your moral code then requires in such a situation.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> LOL.
> 
> I would probably not share work issues with him because really, he's not going to be sympathetic in the way you would like him to be. He handles things with aggression (with you and the kids) and to him that's a way to get control. Well the world we live in doesn't bend the way we want just because we said so. Hostility and anger put people off and can get you into some hot water. He doesn't live in the real world. The house is his environment and much easier to control and determine outcomes in.


Absolutely!


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

justonelife said:


> If he doesn't have a job and doesn't do anything around the house, what does he DO all day? What are you getting out of this marriage? What is he doing to take care of you?


He surfs the web and works out. I don't expect him to take care of me. I do expect him to be supportive, which can be hard to come by sometimes. When he's in a good mood (which is less often these days), he's funny, charming, he's intelligent and we have lots of good conversations, we have the same taste in movies, he's a great father, he spends a lot of time with the boys. I love that he has strong principles and isn't afraid to be honest and direct (although sometimes he's too direct!). He encourages me to be strong and stand up for myself. 

He just has a tendency to go to extremes and he is easily swayed to the negative (someone cut him off in traffic, I forgot something at the grocery store, someone left their clothes in the dryer and he needs to do laundry). When he's positive, he's very positive (I'm the smartest, sexiest woman he knows). When he's negative, he's very negative (I'm just like everybody else, which is the worse insult he could hurl at me considering how he feels about "everybody else"). I'm very middle-of-the-road and even-keeled. It gets exhausting riding this roller coaster with him. But I feel like my only other option (so that I don't get incredibly upset over his temper tantrums) is to just not care and I don't like feeling like I don't care about him or his feelings.


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

You can care, just not get so sucked in when you see him going off the rails. It's a healthy distance. It's to protect you when he's not being his usual loving self.

How long do his ill moods last? That would give me an idea on how hard you want to push getting some help. If it's a mood for a few hours, you probably can let it slide and give him space. If it's days at a time? You couldn't live with that long term, and no one should.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> You can care, just not get so sucked in when you see him going off the rails. It's a healthy distance. It's to protect you when he's not being his usual loving self.
> 
> How long do his ill moods last? That would give me an idea on how hard you want to push getting some help. If it's a mood for a few hours, you probably can let it slide and give him space. If it's days at a time? You couldn't live with that long term, and no one should.


It's generally a few hours. I used to spend a lot of energy crying and trying to get him to snap out of his mood, but then I realized that he was going to feel better when he felt better regardless of what I did. So I decided it was way too draining for me to worry about it. 

I think the difference is that now, I sometimes don't care if he snaps out of it and starts talking to me again. I'm thinking that's not such a good feeling to have towards your spouse.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Running Mom said:


> Good question. He used to work but when our first son was about a year old, he was laid off. Then I was offered a position that would pay a lot more money but would require travel. (I don't work for that company anymore, and I don't have to travel anymore either.) So he decided to stay home. Financially, we can afford it (although it would be nice to have more money, but isn't it always!). I think the reason he doesn't go back to work is that he just cannot deal with people. He is easily excitable and easily stressed. I cannot imagine him sticking to a work schedule. He's pretty inflexible. This has all gotten worse since he's been at home. If I can get him out of the house and talking to people, he can enjoy himself. But before he even leaves to do anything, he's convinced himself that he will be surrounded by idiots and jerks and then just doesn't go anywhere. So he can't get a job because he's sure his boss will be an ass or they will ask him to do something he doesn't want to do and he'll have to quit or they won't let him work when he wants to. And then I will have to listen to him rant and rave every day (he does this a lot already) when he comes home (I know he's not yelling about me but it still feels like he is yelling at me and it's emotionally draining). And yes, these are all things that 99% of us deal with every day, but it's just too much for him.
> 
> On a side note (and another rant I warned you all about), he likes to tell me how I should handle things at work. He doesn't seem to understand that as the only person with an income in this family, I don't have the luxury of calling a coworker an ass****.


I'm sorry but this does not sound like social anxiety...this sounds to me like an anti social jerk! Not an excuse in my book to not work. Both my first and second husbands were like this, they thought everyone else in the world were stupid a$$holes, when actually THEY were, but both worked their butts off. 

I'm sorry, but if this were me, I would not stay with this man. You are subjecting your kids to these raging outbursts, I am sure they feel like they are walking on eggshells unsure of what is going to set dad off next. Plus having to watch him treat you like crap. What is that teaching your boys? Its teaching them that THIS is how you treat women. Do you want them to grow up and treat their partners this way? 

He needs serious therapy. And you need to stand up for yourself and your kids, whether it angers him or not, and give an ultimatum. He gets help, gets a job, or he gets a divorce. Period. Life is too short to live with an angry man.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

He does sound mentally ill but that doesn't excuse his anger.

First, stop fighting with him. It won't "help" & it just causes you more grief.

You need to read "Co-Dependent No More" to learn to set boundaries with him. 

Trust me, all of his issues that you have stated here could have adverse affects on your children no matter how hard you try to insulate them from him.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

I'll throw out another book recommendation- Love Busters, by Dr Harley.

It sounds like your husband commits a lot of "Angry Outbursts" and "Disrespectful Judgments", which are love busters. You sound like you are going into the state of Withdrawal, due to many years of this. Very understandable!

Does your husband know how you feel right now? Are you able to speak with him, or does his anger/anxiety prevent you from having rational, adult conversations about therapy, your unhappiness, etc?


----------



## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

A human being should not sit home all day and do nothing. I dont see that he is contributing anything to the family really. You point out that he is loving to the boys, but is that all you really need in a father and husband?

He needs therapy, BIG TIME. And someone who says, either you work, or Im out. No more free rides from me.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Does he treat the boys the same as he treats you? Just trying to see how that fits in with "great father"...

Personally, I think he's mentally ill, or at least has major issues. And you're enabling him to continue without dealing with those issues. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I think it's a mental illness too, and because of that there's no way to rationalize his behavior. It's going to be erratic until he gets help. If nothing else, you could let him know when he has these angry outbursts that you will not sit there and tolerate him acting that way and disengage. Without an audience, he would only be ranting to himself and it's more likely that he would stop acting out over time. You have to manage him like you would a toddler, and he would have to feel consequences for his behavior. Walking away is very effective.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Running Mom said:


> He surfs the web and works out. I don't expect him to take care of me.


This is an interesting statement.

He expects you to take care of him. You working and taking full responsibility the financial wellbeing of your husband and family is “talking care of him”. On top of that you do housework, shopping, etc etc. Your husband is what is called a kept man. He has no responsibilities but all the benefits. What a deal he has.

A marriage is not one person taking care of the other and almost everything else. It’s a couple working together to take care of each other, their children and their home.

You have enabled his behavior by allowing this to go on. He can be an up/down emotionally, etc, as he wants to be because he does not have to deal much with the outside world. If he had to work, he’d figure out how to deal with others and he’d mellow more. He’d learn that this attitude has to change in order for him to keep a job.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> I'm sorry but this does not sound like social anxiety...this sounds to me like an anti social jerk! Not an excuse in my book to not work. Both my first and second husbands were like this, they thought everyone else in the world were stupid a$$holes, when actually THEY were, but both worked their butts off.
> 
> I'm sorry, but if this were me, I would not stay with this man. You are subjecting your kids to these raging outbursts, I am sure they feel like they are walking on eggshells unsure of what is going to set dad off next. Plus having to watch him treat you like crap. What is that teaching your boys? Its teaching them that THIS is how you treat women. Do you want them to grow up and treat their partners this way?
> 
> He needs serious therapy. And you need to stand up for yourself and your kids, whether it angers him or not, and give an ultimatum. He gets help, gets a job, or he gets a divorce. Period. Life is too short to live with an angry man.


I know that I tend to make excuses for him. I do think he has social anxiety issues. And I do think he could still work. I haven't pushed the issue and since finances aren't a problem, the issue of him not having a job just hasn't been a major one. I've often used the term "walking on eggshells" with him. He says that it's always the same thing that sets him off (that we don't listen to him) so he doesn't see it as erratic or irrational behavior. I don't think I'm a stupid person but I honestly just don't always get why he is mad at me. But even if he's right and I'm not a good listener (which is possible - I'm not perfect), I would like him to express himself differently other than just yelling. I personally shut down completely when people yell at me and then he just gets angrier because he thinks I don't care that he is upset. We just react very differently to our environments and it's a source of conflict. 

I do stand up to him. We talk a lot about these things, well, as much as we can without him getting too upset. I don't think he has to get a job or get out. Sometimes I do just ask him to do something for me even if it means he will be in a bad mood about it. I just wish he didn't have to get so pissed off about seemingly trivial things. 

I guess what keeps me here is that he knows he has problems. He knows that he gets upset easily and doesn't always understand why. He says that he really tries not to let the little things get to him but he just isn't always successful. We talk to the boys about it a lot, as well. If he recognizes that he got too upset over something, he does apologize and admit that he didn't handle the situation well. If he gets legitimately upset, he explains why he is so upset so that the boys can try to understand that he's not trying to be angry just to be angry. I believe that he loves us and that ultimately, he has good intentions towards us. 

I think the worst part is that I really don't get what he has to be angry about. He does have a pretty sweet gig going here and we all love him very much. I'm sure there are some other deep-seeded issues going on that he doesn't recognize.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Emerald said:


> He does sound mentally ill but that doesn't excuse his anger.
> 
> First, stop fighting with him. It won't "help" & it just causes you more grief.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the book recommendation. I will definitely check it out.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> I'll throw out another book recommendation- Love Busters, by Dr Harley.
> 
> It sounds like your husband commits a lot of "Angry Outbursts" and "Disrespectful Judgments", which are love busters. You sound like you are going into the state of Withdrawal, due to many years of this. Very understandable!
> 
> Does your husband know how you feel right now? Are you able to speak with him, or does his anger/anxiety prevent you from having rational, adult conversations about therapy, your unhappiness, etc?


I will try this book as well. Thanks. 

As for talking to him, I have tried many times. I try to tell him how I perceive things and how I interpret what he says and he just says that I am interpreting things wrongly. Let's take the math problem fight from the OP, for example. He will ask a question and then if I don't answer quickly enough, he might be like "don't you know? why don't you know? come on! what is the answer?" and I perceive it as pressure on me and I start to slow down my thinking so that I can be sure I say just the right thing because I feel him getting anxious and I don't want to say something that will set him off. And then he's like "you don't care and you aren't even listening" and I try to explain that I'm thinking and he's like "what's the think about? it's a stupid math problem." 

He says that I am perceiving pressure that isn't there and therefore I'm wrong. So he's not going to change, I keep feeling the pressure and we end up arguing about stupid stuff. This has happened many times over our relationship but in the past, the arguments have been few and far between. In the past year or two, it's been happening more frequently. I think it's because I'm tired of trying so hard to not piss him off because it seems like everything pisses him off so I'm wasting my energy.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

inquizitivemind said:


> A human being should not sit home all day and do nothing. I dont see that he is contributing anything to the family really. You point out that he is loving to the boys, but is that all you really need in a father and husband?
> 
> He needs therapy, BIG TIME. And someone who says, either you work, or Im out. No more free rides from me.


I don't always see it as a free ride - an easy ride, for sure. And definitely one I would like (at least, the not working part - I like doing all the stuff around the house, I just don't like not having enough time to do it all and that is when I get resentful that he isn't more helpful). And it's not all I need in a father and husband but I think I get more out of him than most. It's hard to explain. It just seems like the other husbands I see around here*, they all seem kind of empty and dull. I don't want someone who is just concerned about the yard or the next car he's going to buy or what golf club he's going to join. I love that he wants to talk about national security issues and what the boys will be when they grow up and what I need to do to go faster in my next marathon and how we all need to eat better as a family. He wants us all the be the best we can be. And yes, it's ironic. He's the first to admit it, but he has a lot of good qualities that I want to see in my boys.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Being aware of an issue and having good intentions does not equate making an effort. He isnt going to change. Is this how you want you and your boys to live?


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

PBear said:


> Does he treat the boys the same as he treats you? Just trying to see how that fits in with "great father"...
> 
> Personally, I think he's mentally ill, or at least has major issues. And you're enabling him to continue without dealing with those issues.
> 
> ...


Yes, he does treat the boys the same way. He loves the boys and they love him unconditionally. They see him as the imperfect person that he is. After the fight in the car this weekend, I asked my son if he would ever want his father to go away and he immediately said no. My son said that my husband would get over it and eventually not be mad. I don't know if I should have asked him that but I had to know how he felt. I know they get upset with their Dad sometimes and I sometimes tell them to just ignore him which I probably shouldn't do. But is anyone perfect? Am I just making excuses?


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> I think it's a mental illness too, and because of that there's no way to rationalize his behavior. It's going to be erratic until he gets help. If nothing else, you could let him know when he has these angry outbursts that you will not sit there and tolerate him acting that way and disengage. Without an audience, he would only be ranting to himself and it's more likely that he would stop acting out over time. You have to manage him like you would a toddler, and he would have to feel consequences for his behavior. Walking away is very effective.


I agree. I have tried this recently and it does seem to work. The more I shut down, the more he seems to realize how shi**y he's acting.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Well, you at least were honest about just venting here (which is fine). But until you decide to stop enabling him, he's not likely to change. And personally, I think you're risking damage to your boys by allowing this to continue. They're learning good things from him, but they're also learning the bad. And who knows what kind of damage is being done by having a parental figure yelling at them irrationally one moment and then apologizing the next, only to do it all over the next time. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> This is an interesting statement.
> 
> He expects you to take care of him. You working and taking full responsibility the financial wellbeing of your husband and family is “talking care of him”. On top of that you do housework, shopping, etc etc. Your husband is what is called a kept man. He has no responsibilities but all the benefits. What a deal he has.
> 
> ...


I know. Lots to think about . . . .


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Running Mom said:


> Yes, he does treat the boys the same way. He loves the boys and they love him unconditionally. They see him as the imperfect person that he is. After the fight in the car this weekend, I asked my son if he would ever want his father to go away and he immediately said no. My son said that my husband would get over it and eventually not be mad. I don't know if I should have asked him that but I had to know how he felt. I know they get upset with their Dad sometimes and I sometimes tell them to just ignore him which I probably shouldn't do. But is anyone perfect? Am I just making excuses?


Yes, you're rationalizing. And even people in physically abusive relationships will chose to stay in them. Doesn't make it any healthier for anyone involved. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Someone is bound to ask, so it may as well be me - how is your sex life? Frankly, I don't see how you could want to make love to someone who for all intents and purposes is your third child.

It won't be long until your sons surpass their father in the maturity department. Then you will really have problems.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Running Mom said:


> I will try this book as well. Thanks.
> 
> As for talking to him, I have tried many times. I try to tell him how I perceive things and how I interpret what he says and he just says that I am interpreting things wrongly. Let's take the math problem fight from the OP, for example. He will ask a question and then if I don't answer quickly enough, he might be like "don't you know? why don't you know? come on! what is the answer?" and I perceive it as pressure on me and I start to slow down my thinking so that I can be sure I say just the right thing because I feel him getting anxious and I don't want to say something that will set him off. And then he's like "you don't care and you aren't even listening" and I try to explain that I'm thinking and he's like "what's the think about? it's a stupid math problem."
> 
> He says that I am perceiving pressure that isn't there and therefore I'm wrong. So he's not going to change, I keep feeling the pressure and we end up arguing about stupid stuff. This has happened many times over our relationship but in the past, the arguments have been few and far between. In the past year or two, it's been happening more frequently. I think it's because I'm tired of trying so hard to not piss him off because it seems like everything pisses him off so I'm wasting my energy.


After you read the one on co-dependency, read *"Love Busters"* and *"His Needs, Her Needs".*

He is being belligerent but he's not going to be introspective and change? The way he treats you is called a love buster. After time it will destroy your love for him. 

You have a lot of power in this relationship, yet you ignore that and give him all the control. Why is that? 

It's "simple" (I know, I know). Tell him that either he learns to deal with his anger issues or he needs to move out. You will not subject yourself and your children to his angry outbursts. If he wants to be listened to, then he need to say things in a respectful manner. That's using your power.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Someone is bound to ask, so it may as well be me - how is your sex life? Frankly, I don't see how you could want to make love to someone who for all intents and purposes is your third child.
> 
> It won't be long until your sons surpass their father in the maturity department. Then you will really have problems.


We have sex about 3-4 times per month. I know it's not a lot. Part of it is because I have a low sex drive anyway. But there are definitely times when I am like "you haven't done s**t all week and now you want to lay in bed all morning and have sex?!"


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> After you read the one on co-dependency, read *"Love Busters"* and *"His Needs, Her Needs".*
> 
> He is being belligerent but he's not going to be introspective and change? The way he treats you is called a love buster. After time it will destroy your love for him.
> 
> ...


I'm looking at Love Busters on Amazon and it's coming up in the Christian book section. Is this book religious in any way?


----------



## Gruff (Feb 27, 2012)

It sounds like he has Borderline Personality Disorder, or at least features of it. Black and white thinking (which your description of him shows) is a feature of a disordered personality. He needs therapy!


----------



## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

OP do you think your H is bothered by the fact that you support the family? Or does it seem he feels that that is the way it should be?


----------



## bewilderness (Jun 11, 2013)

Wow. He has a lot in common with my husband, who has OCD.  

He needs therapy and medication. And even that may not be enough. 

You have my sympathy. Truly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bewilderness (Jun 11, 2013)

Are you non-religious, RunningMom? Just curious because that would be another similarity. Are you sure you aren't me?? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Gruff said:


> It sounds like he has Borderline Personality Disorder, or at least features of it. Black and white thinking (which your description of him shows) is a feature of a disordered personality. He needs therapy!


Yes, the black-and-white thinking is a big issue with us. 



pink_lady said:


> OP do you think your H is bothered by the fact that you support the family? Or does it seem he feels that that is the way it should be?


He is definitely bothered by it. He often says that he doesn't contribute anything to the family and gets down about it. But he's talking about money, whereas I would be happy if he just contributed more to the running of the house. 

I used to make fun of my sister for making a list of chores and assigning them to herself and her husband. That is exactly what my father did for us, and maybe I equate it to parenting rather than being married. I may just need to do it around here, though, because something needs to change.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

bewilderness said:


> Wow. He has a lot in common with my husband, who has OCD.
> 
> He needs therapy and medication. And even that may not be enough.
> 
> ...


My husband has a lot of OCD tendencies. I would like him to go back to therapy. It's worked for him in the past because he actually used to be angrier before I met him (and much more destructive). 



bewilderness said:


> Are you non-religious, RunningMom? Just curious because that would be another similarity. Are you sure you aren't me??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm an atheist. Maybe I'm your sock. Or you're mine!


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Running Mom said:


> I'm looking at Love Busters on Amazon and it's coming up in the Christian book section. Is this book religious in any way?


The book isn't religious. The author is religious, and his program is offered through some churches- I suspect this is why it is showing up in the Christian book section.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> The book isn't religious. The author is religious, and his program is offered through some churches- I suspect this is why it is showing up in the Christian book section.


Thanks!


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

I just posted this in another thread and it really got me thinking. In reviewing the list, there isn't much that is practical (having a job, doing chores, etc.) and these are the day-to-day issues that can make or break a marriage. Maybe that's my problem: the things I love about my husband aren't the things that would make him a good husband.


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Running Mom said:


> I just posted this in another thread and it really got me thinking. In reviewing the list, there isn't much that is practical (having a job, doing chores, etc.) and these are the day-to-day issues that can make or break a marriage. Maybe that's my problem: the things I love about my husband aren't the things that would make him a good husband.


I think that "What Makes a Good Husband" really is dependent on, and defined by, each individual wife- what you need for him to do to be a "good husband" will be different than what any other woman would need. (Vice-versa, too, thankfully!) 

No sane person will stay "walking on eggshells" for too long. Either they will get out early, or they will keep trying, and begin to lose their sanity in the effort and twisting that is required to stay. 

A co-dependent wants the "sick" person to be "well" so very, very badly that they will go to incredible lengths to help make it so. They make excuses for the other person, they push down their own needs, they put their entire focus on the other person. 

They watch the other person intently and base their own actions on what the other person is doing, how that person is behaving, what the person seems to need. Everything revolves around the other person.

This is how the co-dependent becomes just as sick as the person they are trying to help. They lose themselves. They become emotional pretzels, twisting, trying to support the other person's well-being. 

Yeah, been there, done that, and still have to watch myself to ensure I don't go there again! It's not a journey I recommend making if you don't need to! 

You sound like a strong person. From your posts, it sounds like you are on the edge- it can't continue like this with your DH, with you and your children so incredibly careful not to set your husband off. But where to go from here?

Well, don't go down that Co-Dependent rabbit hole if you can help it! Strengthen your boundaries: no twisting yourself up so that the unacceptable becomes accepted. If something is not acceptable, tell him so, as kindly as possibly but firmly and clearly.

So, it is Friday afternoon and I have a little time until my next meeting. I hope you don't mind if I do a little imaginative "scripting" of how it might go? 

From your posts, I am imaging a talk or a letter that goes something like:

Husband, i need to talk with you, and I need you to not say anything until I have said my piece. After I am done, I would love to hear your thoughts and discuss it with you.

I love you. I love talking with you, I love how intelligent you are, I love [Add your things here]. I love our children and the family we've created.

I treasure our marriage and our relationship. Because I treasure it, and want to preserve it, I need to be honest with you.

There are parts of your behavior that are destructive. Your anger has us all walking on eggshells. Your words are hurtful. You put down me, and your children, when you call us 'stupid' [give any other example].

Your words and your actions are slowly destroying my love for you. They are destroying the stability of the household we create for our children. 

Your anger, and your derision, have gotten to the point where they overshadow all the wonderful things about you. It can be very unpleasant to be with you. It's better, more peaceful, happier for me now, when you are not around. The kids and I had a better time at the party when you left us.

I never wanted that- I still don't want it- it breaks my heart to tell you this. 

However, I am telling you this because I want this to change. 

I want the relationship with the funny man, the kind man, the man I loved to spend time with and wanted to spend the rest of my life with- I want YOU back.

Will you work with me on this? Here the things I want to see happen. I want you to go back to therapy, and if recommended, go back on medication. I want you to consider anger management. I want you to go over some marriage materials with me and see if they have anything to offer us. I also want to hear anything that you think might be helpful."

This is a first shot, a warning shot. It tells him clearly that you love him, and also clearly explains that things need to change. There is no ultimatum, no "things change or ELSE" (I don't get the sense that you are at that point yet). 

He might try to argue with you, and tell you that you are perceiving things wrong, that he isn't being mean or derogatory. 
If so, this is where your boundaries come into play: "You might feel differently; that is fine. I am sharing how I feel"; "I am sorry you feel that my perspective is wrong-headed; I see things differently". 

And most of all, no fighting. If he picks a fight, or you start to get angry, "I need to leave this conversation now. I will return when I have calmed down/you are ready to discuss this without yelling/being derisive". 

Hopefully this is as far as you will need to go, and he will recognize the damage he's doing without you needing to get to the point of an ultimatum. 

Your tools:

Boundaries- what will create your safety, your comfort, your ability to discuss and lay it out there for him.

Personally, I have found Marriage Builders to pretty much cover all marriage bases and haven't read much beyond them, so I can only say again for books:

Love Busters- a great tool to explain/identify what behaviors are devastating to a relationship. 

His Needs Her Needs- a great tool for how to build romantic love between partners.

Anyway, I hope some of this is helpful. Hang in there!


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

*RoseAglow*, thank you so much for the thoughtful and helpful post. I'm getting choked up just reading that conversation script. That's exactly what I would like to say to my husband and I get nervous just thinking about it. We've talked about his issues before but never in such concrete terms, i.e., this is what needs to happen next. 

You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you!


----------



## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Running Mom, I am glad you found it helpful. 

The love you have for your husband has really come through on your posts. Maybe consider expressing it all to him in a letter, rather than a talk? This would give him time alone to read it and think about it, if he is so inclined, and I think it might be easier on you as well.

Hopefully he would take it all to heart and agree, and/or suggest other actions as well.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Last night we talked a little bit. I wasn't completely prepared for it so I didn't have RoseAglow's script ready! I don't think we resolved anything but at least he stayed relatively calm. Ever since Monday (which is when I asked him to return something for me), he's been very distant and quiet (which is totally not like him - he's very much a talker). I kept asking him what the problem was but he kept saying nothing was wrong. Whenever I tried to chit chat with him about stuff, he was clearly not interested in talking. I had a few conversations with the back of his head (which I find really irritating and hurtful) but I tried to give him his space. Last night we were watching a baseball game on TV (which we all usually do together) and he didn't want to watch with us. I said "don't you want to hang out with your family?" and he was like "why would I want to do that?". 

As it turns out, we had the same fight we always have. No one around here ever, ever, never, never listens to one single word that he says. He says he's just "this guy" who lives in this house and he has no effect on anyone because no one listens. I said that I didn't think he was being totally honest by saying we never listen and he was like "what difference does it make? the bottom line is that you all don't listen to me enough to make me feel like it's worth my time to talk at all." 

I agree that we don't always listen to what he says. And I told him that. And I told him that when it comes to the boys, they don't listen to a lot of what I say either. I told him that the problem I have is that his reaction is to just give up on us - that it's all or nothing with him - we either listen to everything or he's not going to talk. Whereas I feel like I'm more realistic (and here is where you all can tell me whether or not I'm crazy, or making more excuses for myself and my boys) in recognizing that most people don't listen to others 100% of the time and that most people can accept that. 

By the way, when we talk about listening, there are two things in play: firstly, it's the basic in-one-ear-and-out-the-other, which I know can be infuriating but it's not like we do it in every conversation and I've been trying to work on it both for myself and for the boys; secondly, it's taking his advice. He says he doesn't expect us all to do everything he says but he clearly doesn't like it when we don't. For example, he tells the boys that if they want to be really good baseball players, they should do extra work like hit off a tee in the backyard, throw the ball every day, etc. But they don't do it. I'm guessing it's because they are 9 and 11 and would rather ride bikes with their friends. He says it's because they are lazy and don't want to put in the work. Well, fine. They might say they want to be major league baseball players, but what little leaguer doesn't? Why can't they just play and enjoy it and know that it won't be their career? 

He was like, why should I talk when I don't even know if you are listening. And I said "well, how can I let you know that I am listening?" and he says "why are you putting this all on me? why is it my problem to fix you?" Gah!! I told him I was just trying to find a way for us to communicate better. I also told him that even though I have been trying to do better, chances are this will be an issue for the rest of my life because I'm not perfect. (I need to remind him that he's not perfect either but I accept him and love him and want him to be part of this family. He doesn't seem to want to do the same for us.) 

As I said, I don't think we really resolved anything. He will get over this but I really hate that we go through this all the time. I feel like he doesn't recognize that we try and that we aren't doing these things to purposely hurt him. He said that he was just going to keep his head down and his mouth shut for the next 25 years and then he will die and we will all be happy. I tried to tell him that he clearly isn't happy and that is not the way to raise a family or be in a marriage. And also that there is really no way I'm going to stay married to him for 25 more years if this is how he's going to act (but I didn't say that last night).

I was also thinking this might be a good way to start a conversation about how he could contribute more to the family. He says that if we aren't going to listen, then he has nothing to contribute. I was thinking that I could tell him there are other ways he could contribute (go grocery shopping, cook dinner, do more yard work, get a job outside the house, etc.). But I don't want him to think that I'm like "well, the listening thing that is so important to you is never going to change so why don't you just go get a job instead" which seems like I might be trying to avoid his bigger issues with us. What do you think?


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So, he thinks giving unsolicited advice is a major contribution? He feels insulted that people don't act on his unwanted advice?

Why am I channeling Yul Brynner in a vest and harem pants?


----------



## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm sorry but why would I take any advice from a man with no job and nothing to contribute around the house? I would have no respect for him and therefore, no reason to listen to a thing he says. But that's just me.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> So, he thinks giving unsolicited advice is a major contribution? He feels insulted that people don't act on his unwanted advice?
> 
> Why am I channeling Yul Brynner in a vest and harem pants?


The advice isn't necessarily unsolicited. If I say I want to run faster, I would like his input because he knows a lot about strength training. But yes, he does get insulted when we don't act on it. Not all of it, but a lot of it. It sort of makes sense, i.e., why would I say I want to run faster if I don't actually want to do the things I need to do to get faster. 

And I do consider his advice a contribution to the family. He's smart and has good ideas. If he didn't talk to us and give us advice, we would miss it. Although I would like him to do other things as well, like do more work around the house. 



justonelife said:


> I'm sorry but why would I take any advice from a man with no job and nothing to contribute around the house? I would have no respect for him and therefore, no reason to listen to a thing he says. But that's just me.


I don't take his advice on work because he doesn't have a job. That is true. But I don't equate his not doing a lot of work around the house with not listening to anything he says. I think these are separate things. Although he may not "do" much now, he has done a lot in his life (just not lately) and has a lot of experience that does lead to good advice. 

Although when I get frustrated with him, it's easy to say that I don't want to listen because he doesn't do anything around the house. 

We actually had a really good talk this weekend. We also had sex, which helps. I know he feels like "no one listens to me and my wife doesn't even want to have sex with me so what's the point of being here." I get that. And since we were talking and having some good discussions, I warmed to him more so than I had all week. As for the discussions, we talked a lot about why he gets frustrated and how we can both communicate better so that we don't blow up/shut down over stupid stuff. I feel like this has been one of our better discussions when we get into these kinds of arguments so I'm feeling good. We haven't really addressed his anger issues yet but baby steps . . . when it comes up again, I will deal with it.


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Satya said:


> Running Mom, I haven't read every single post so I apologize if anything I say is a repeat of advice you may have already received.
> 
> I would bet that there is something very deep rooted and very shameful that he is hiding, and that his anxiety is creating a convenient cover. This could be severe depression, this could be a secret that he feels he can't share (or live with comfortably). It could be anything, but he's doing everything to avoid addressing it head-on and blowing it out of the water.
> 
> My ex H was agoraphobic and he did everything possible to make it look like I was the most stupid, unloving, selfish person every time I tried to be understanding. This had nothing to do with communication problems and everything to do with him avoiding telling me the truth and blameshifting. I can't help but see a similar pattern from reading your story.


I think some of it is just his personality (he's told me stories of his grandfather behaving in ways that are very similar to his, i.e., getting easily frustrated and angered over little things like loud noises). I also think it's related to his father. When my husband was 7, his father killed himself. My husband remembers his father very well and vividly remembers what it was like after his father died. He hates his father pretty intensely and has a lot of anger over his suicide. He was in therapy as a young adult and he really felt like it helped him. It may be time for him to go back. But I think this also adds to his frustration with our boys because he often says that he didn't have anyone to teach him anything when he was younger, so he wishes the boys appreciated him more (they do, immensely, but I guess just not in every way he would like but again, I think that may just be a kid thing (i.e., not listening to your parents who are telling you to do things that are good for you)).


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

He needs counseling on the growing agoraphobia...you think it's bad now...imagine how worse it will be when you both start aging. Plus the Therapist can help him channel his loss of Father and having no one to teach him anything...Therapist can help him figure out how to do it (teach and show his children things that his father didn't show him) without going overboard.

He needs to work to get some self-worth back...my guess is he is passively aggressively resentful that he isn't out doing ANYTHING...and in turn this cycle of anxiety because he hasn't been out there in a long time...how will he fit in, can he do it, will they like me, can I do the job...he's stressed and it is percolating, bubbling up in snippy angry little spat fights and tantrums (drove home after spat)

He should be sharing in the household chores period.
And at least seeking a part-time job to get him back into the swing of normal adulthood....with a CLEAR set agenda for figuring out what he wants to do for a living. The kids are in school, he should be working period.
He doesn't feel like a man or an adult really and is lashing out his resentments. You'll need to help him, but you can't nag and complain and demand. Take a look at how you handle things in the viewpoint of someone who is hurting. 

After reading all these posts, you re-affirmed to yourself that you have indeed enabled him to act and behave in these ways. Having a Parent-Child relationship between spouses is a sure fire slow and miserable death of the union. 
You'll need to look at things in a different way and watch your facial expressions, be a mate/spouse not a Mother. (I get that he is forever acting the child, but you can't control him you CAN control your own behavior and how you react to things)

Plus, people get sick of each other 24/7/365...how many years has this been going on? You both need a break. Him getting a job outside the home would fix several things that are irking you and in turn will help his self-worth. You both need to pull your own weight as the adults and parents in the household. You are BOTH role models for your children...what are you showing them?

Things to think about anyway right?

I have a feeling that you can work things out. I don't get the vibe or intuition that yours is over darling. I'd take baby steps at first and fix the things that are wrong/no longer working. 
I'm rooting for you to heal the bruised places and emerge a happy family.


----------



## Zora (Aug 2, 2010)

I have read your posts and would like to offer another suggestion. Two websites devoted to highly sensitive persons and OCPD are The Highly Sensitive Person
The Gift of OCPD | Understanding how obsessive-compulsive personality disorder is a gift that just needs a little grace
Reading these has helped open my eyes to the possible cause of my husband's and daughter's behavior.
The first site offers a self test.
In my opinion you have received some good advice here. Reading and learning helped me to be compassionate but, personal boundaries are crucial in any relationship.
Good learning and good luck.
-Zora


----------



## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

Zora said:


> I have read your posts and would like to offer another suggestion. Two websites devoted to highly sensitive persons and OCPD are The Highly Sensitive Person
> The Gift of OCPD | Understanding how obsessive-compulsive personality disorder is a gift that just needs a little grace
> Reading these has helped open my eyes to the possible cause of my husband's and daughter's behavior.
> The first site offers a self test.
> ...


Thank you for the links! You've definitely given me something to think about.


----------

