# How to hold women accountable



## Rrr (Dec 15, 2019)

Recently had a talk with my wife.
Went like this:

"We currently earn just enough to get by. I can't save. Or make investments for our comfort.
I can't even afford a bed. We need 400 € more a month. You could easily earn that, by going and take a mini-job."

Wife answered:
"I have written applications."

I: "How many did you write this month?"

W: "None, but I have done so."

I: "Why don't you work in the place I do? You know they are looking for more hands."

W: "I have written an email to them."

I: "Nothing is stopping you from going there. And then you would get a job right away."

W: Silence

I call this dialogue the excrement of bovine.

The wife would NEVER act like this if it was only the two of us being together.

She surely must realize that she doesn't have a job because she doesn't want to.
And that I also know that.
Yet, she persists in her slothfulness.

How to feel like being married to a sane person again?

PS: Being a permanently-tired human is one thing. But this clear dissonance in logic is unlike my normally quite sharp wife.
I have the feeling she is shirking her duty, 
because she knows I won't leave her
Due to the trauma, it would cause to our daughter.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How to hold women accountable? This is not about women, it's about one woman, your wife.

It sounds like your wife is depressed. 

What sorts of things do you and your wife do together for quality time, just the two of you?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"because she knows I won't leave her"

This is your problem. Not hers - yours.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

How old is your daughter?

You said in your other post that your wife goes to work.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

You keep asking the same questions in new creative ways and you keep getting the same answer. Your wife sounds horribly depressed and she needs professional help. Asking again in a different way won't change the answer. 

I'm sorry you've been saddled with a wife with a medical problem. In dealing with my teenage daughter's depression I know how hard it is to treat. But doing nothing means nothing changes and both you and your wife are miserable...and that's a pretty crappy environment for your daughter to grow up in. 

Do you just not love your wife enough to help her or are you incapable of grasping that she can't help what she's going through right now? Instead of posting new threads with the same question, spend that time googling "depression" and educate yourself.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Rrr

You write (all over the forum):



> wife lets herself go
> complains about her belly fat, yet never works out
> sleeps in the morning, where we might have time to spend together
> goes to work
> ...





> No oral sex for 2 years
> (yet you said it's a "decade-old grief")
> accute need
> Wife: "Its due to my teeth."
> ...





> When I was younger I used to masturbate until the member was sore bled in places. Once actually had an operation scar burst open because of masturbation.
> 
> It's not fair to take away from me what I enjoy when the rest of the time I commit to being a good father, husband, bread-winner, and (reluctantly) maid.





> She works, but not enough. Part-time is considered 20 hrs a week here. She gets paid 12 hrs a week.





> wife prepares daughter for school
> goes back to sleep
> gets up 2 hours later
> cooks lunch for herself, me and daughter
> ...





> She surely must realize that she doesn't have a job because she doesn't want to.
> And that I also know that.
> Yet, she persists in her slothfulness.
> 
> How to feel like being married to a sane person again?





> I have the feeling she is shirking her duty,
> because she knows I won't leave her
> Due to the trauma, it would cause to our daughter.


Based on your writing, you view yourself quite highly because YOU work full-time, do all the housework, and you are owed the kind of sex you want when you want it, whether your wife wants it or not. Based on your writing, your wife is fat, lazy, insane, has bad teeth, is poor at sex, is neither a career-woman nor a housewife, and is essentially worthless. You are OWED oral sex because you earn the money, and she's not dishing it out, so you think "I didn't sign up for this" and would leave her ... "_if it weren't for your daughter._" 

I'm sorry but I think this is horrible. If she is so worthless, just leave her. Don't subject her to your demands and control any longer. If you don't love her *exactly as she is right now*...seriously let her go. Yeah, she may suddenly be unable to pay rent, but you know what? She'll figure it out. Despite how you describe her I don't think she's stupid. I think she's just sick and tired of being called fat, lazy, and worthless! I think she's tired of being unappreciated, nitpicked, and constantly wrong! I think she may be depressed but it's probably because everything she ever hears about herself is NEGATIVE!

So either start thinking of her and figuring out how to love her and act in a loving way toward her (as you stated you would do in your vows until you died), OR let her go. If you can't put aside your own selfish "NEED" for a wife to work full-time, at your work, and do all the housework, and give you oral sex whenever you demand it...and think of what she needs, and what she would like, and how she feels loved and appreciated, let her go! If you can't learn to know her and discover her love language and figure out what she needs to feel loved, let her go! If you can't take all that you've learned about her and act toward her in a way that says she is appreciated, valued, worthy and LOVED, let her go! 

You aren't doing this for your daughter. I call :bsflag: You are using your daughter as an excuse to try to force your wife to be who you want, how you want, when you want. You want us to give you the magic words to *make her* work full time (or she's slothful), to think like you (or she's insane), and to give you oral sex when you want it (or she's got issues). There are no such magic words to "make" someone do something--that's because that is manipulation and control!! Not love!!

And here's a thought: how would you feel if this is how she thought about and treated you? Would you be okay with her trying to FORCE you to work her hours at her workplace? Would you feel cared for if she tried to FORCE you to ignore household chores? Would you feel loved if she demanded you do some sexual act that she loves and you find demeaning or traumatic? So if YOU would not be okay with this kind of treatment, what in the world makes you think SHE would be okay with being treated like this--because she's your wife?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

How do you hold women accountable?

The exact same way you hold men accountable.

You're all over the map here, man. Just shotgun posting stuff. I suggest you focus on one topic for a while, until you get that one sorted out. Then move to the next one.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Rrr said:


> Recently had a talk with my wife.
> Went like this:
> 
> "We currently earn just enough to get by. I can't save. Or make investments for our comfort.
> ...


I am mixed on this.

This is an individual case, and you writing in general terms about women will alienate many reading this. It also lets you two off the hook, as it stops it being an individual issue.


My ex-wife would not do housework or work out the house and we did not have children. Many on here called her as depressed, but she would do hobbies and socialise. THe problem was being lazy.

If she can motivate herself to do fun stuff, then she is being respectless and does not want to contribute anymore than she is doing. If you will not leave, then accept it. She helps with the housework and with raising a kid, very many people have to worse.

If she is depressed, then approach that.


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## Rrr (Dec 15, 2019)

Affaircare said:


> @Rrr
> You write (all over the forum):


Considering this is my first time in a relationship forum, I still recognise this is poor form. Confident I can get better in sorting out this in future though.



Affaircare said:


> Based on your writing, you view yourself quite highly


Everyone should. But I realise in my case this was probably for the wrong reasons.



Affaircare said:


> I'm sorry but I think this is horrible.


Me too, that's why I had to share it. Or do you think I appreciate my monkeymind taking me on rides like that? To the point, I even consider sharing this in a forum, for the world to read?



Affaircare said:


> If she is so worthless


She isn't. Only by vowing to spend my life with her the universe actually materialized her into my life. That's why this is all so conflicting.



Affaircare said:


> If you don't love her *exactly as she is right now*


I am fine with that. Still, is it normal to feel sometimes you are missing out?



Affaircare said:


> Yeah, she may suddenly be unable to pay rent,


The question remains, what if I am suddenly unable to pay rent? Cause you never know what's around the corner health-wise, once you go on a path of emotional healing.



Affaircare said:


> but you know what? She'll figure it out.


I have mixed feelings about this.



Affaircare said:


> Despite how you describe her I don't think she's stupid.


I married her precisely because her mind is sharp as a razor blade. That does not explain her behavior.



Affaircare said:


> I think she's just sick and tired of being called fat, lazy, and worthless!


Anyone would feel bad being criticized. Currently running a trial where we thank each other for feedback, no matter how painful and embarrassing it is. Makes things more polite, even brought about a few laughs.

However, saying 4 positive things before 1 negative thing is still hard to reach the goal.
Then again, this whole situation is an improvement to the situation a year or two ago.



Affaircare said:


> I think she's tired of being unappreciated, nitpicked, and constantly wrong! I think she may be depressed but it's probably because everything she ever hears about herself is NEGATIVE!


Is there a cycle of depression each individual goes to, with the duty of the others in his family to support them until they snap out of it?



Affaircare said:


> So either starts thinking of her and figuring out how to love her and act in a loving way toward her


We talked about this today. That it would be smart that I take a point of view from her perspective, to figure out which things are important.



Affaircare said:


> (as you stated you would do in your vows until you died)


I have mixed feelings about this.



Affaircare said:


> If you can't learn to know her and discover her love language


She likes words of encouragement and gifts. I like acts of service and physical touch.




Affaircare said:


> and figure out what she needs to feel loved, let her go!





Affaircare said:


> If you can't take all that you've learned about her and act toward her in a way that says she is appreciated, valued, worthy and LOVED, let her go!





Affaircare said:


> You aren't doing this for your daughter. I call :bsflag:


Let us see what you say next.



Affaircare said:


> You are using your daughter as an excuse to try to force your wife to be who you want, how you want when you want.


She is free to be whoever she wants. She doesn't have the freedom to not receive feedback for her behavior. She is not a princess, I may be stiff and weird. But I am ok with the way I am. She doesn't seem to be.
Agreed a lot of what I wrote comes out way more frustrated than it usually is.



Affaircare said:


> You want us to give you the magic words


I asked how can I feel comfortable in all this, no one can control anyone else.
I look for suggestions to activate her self-directed behavior. 
Our daughter has it. Women I got to know had it. She seems to use it for certain necessary household activities, that's that. Why doesn't she create art and crafts as everyone else does? 
-- Thats a good question to ask her when she gets home.



Affaircare said:


> that's because that is manipulation and control!!


That's stating expectations and demands. Free to not make concessions. So no matter what choice people make when responding to this, resentment is created in either party.
It seems like a vicious circle. So communication needs to be adapted there as well. Good to know.



Affaircare said:


> Not love!!


I wonder if you could love to rarely do the things you love.



Affaircare said:


> And here's a thought: how would you feel if this is how she thought about and treated you?


That insight came to me this morning. Then I realized I need to be more kind to everyone, the more dysfunctional they are the more so. 
That triggers the feeling that I am the only one holding it together. How can I handle that feeling?



Affaircare said:


> Would you be okay with her trying to FORCE you to work her hours at her workplace?


Comparing apples to pears. She watches a dozen children during the afternoon. I take care of 4 dozen elderly and infirm during the night.
I ask her to take afternoon duty during the days she has off from her other job. Offered to teach her, taking the same shift for a while. I told her we make sure she doesn't have to do morning-shift, which is way more exhausting. And that she could train for night-shifts, which would bring the most income per hour, which meant fewer days she has to work in a month. That I would train her for night shifts as well.
Even started writing the 'algorithm' (all steps, but in modules, not in strict chronological fashion) for night-shifts, so it's easy to start.

Any guy would be flattered. I still have to wait for her to make up her mind... And then I feel impatient after a while. 



Affaircare said:


> Would you feel cared for if she tried to FORCE you to ignore household chores?


I absolutely don't understand what you mean. Preventing me from washing dishes?
So that they just stack? 



Affaircare said:


> Would you feel loved if she demanded you do some sexual act that she loves and you find demeaning or traumatic?


So, on my birthday she is ok with certain acts. And other times this is what, demeaning and traumatic?
How can I understand that?

I understand the point that I shouldn't ask for more than she is willing to comfortably give. Then I get impatient and bored because she doesn't even want to do stuff that puts her in charge of things.
I'd find that offer exciting. Just like I would find demands for intimacy repulsive.

Again, she is free to act in any way she wants. I can still get annoyed or frustrated.



Affaircare said:


> So if YOU would not be okay with this kind of treatment, what in the world makes you think SHE would be okay with being treated like this--because she's your wife?


Any kind of treatment that I would not ok with, she can't be subjected though, I got that.
The point seems to be, the treatment I was subjected to in the past seems to reflect on how I treat others.
After all, having been treated like that means it's ok to treat others like that, right?
Which is, of course, only what your nervous system might make you feel.

So when you can't trust your gut-feeling about you are justified to say or think certain things, how do you know what to think and feel stronger when you feel it?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

What did your relationship look like a year ago?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Hold women accountable? opening statement?

Get ready for the fall out on that statement.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

OP who keeps you accountable? 
We are all adults, we do what we want. If you don’t like it leave. You can’t control people. It sounds like you guys both need each other, so you will accept whatever weird, toxic dynamic you have.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

The minute she knows you won’t leave her, you lose all leverage. Ask me how I know. Guess what? I left her. Stop complaining and start thinking about your exit plan for you and your child.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

OP, accountable for what?
I don't think you mean accountable. I think you mean act responsibly.
How do you do that? ....You need to act in such a way that spurs her interest.
Quit talking to her about it. It's a waste of your time and effort. 
Change the way to act and live, hit the gym, make more money, etc.....
Get her attention back.
She will respond to your positive change in a positive manner.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> OP, accountable for what?
> 
> I don't think you mean accountable. I think you mean act responsibly.
> 
> ...




He doesn’t want to do that. He isn’t willing to do that. He wants to work less. He’s not trying to gain the respect of his wife. He is trying to do the bare minimum so get by in life. They both are.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> OP, accountable for what?
> 
> I don't think you mean accountable. I think you mean act responsibly.
> 
> ...




Double post


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> He doesn’t want to do that. He isn’t willing to do that. He wants to work less. He’s not trying to gain the respect of his wife. He is trying to do the bare minimum so get by in life. They both are.


He needs to realize his performance defines his existence in her eyes.
She has little respect for him.
She demands his respect by default.
He has no real understanding of the intersexual dynamic...most of us men struggle with this.
We say "I will never understand women" ....what we really mean is "I don't know how to interpret intersexual dynamics in a way that would benefit me"
What benefits him, benefits her, benefits them both.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> He needs to realize his performance defines his existence in her eyes.
> She has little respect for him.
> She demands his respect by default.
> He has no real understanding of the intersexual dynamic...most of us men struggle with this.
> ...




I agree with you. But this doesn’t fit for the OP. He has no respect for his wife. None. You need to respect someone to WANT to win the respect of them if that makes sense. This guy thinks he is a catch and she should be lucky. Even though he doesn’t think he is lucky to be with her.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> I agree with you. But this doesn’t fit for the OP. He has no respect for his wife. None. You need to respect someone to WANT to win the respect of them if that makes sense. This guy thinks he is a catch and she should be lucky. Even though he doesn’t think he is lucky to be with her.


Respect is earned, Man to Man.
Not Man to Woman. "You need to respect someone to WANT to win the respect of " ...How a woman's respect process works. That's respect by default.
He doesn't understand that.
He's applying his rationale to his wife. 
That doesn't work.
He thinks his concept should be the only acceptable concept and therefor rejecting his concept is rejecting its legitimacy.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Why be with someone you don’t respect? The things he said about his wife are horrific. I would die if my husband were to say anything like that about me.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> Why be with someone you don’t respect? The things he said about his wife are horrific. I would die if my husband were to say anything like that about me.


"Men must become, men must qualify, men must perform. As such, male respect is something that is almost always in flux.
Women’s respect just is, and thereby female respect is something more static. Automatic, deferential, but ultimately unmerited respect simply for being – female respect – is considered a useful tool," R.T.
And very useful to understand.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> "Men must become, men must qualify, men must perform. As such, male respect is something that is almost always in flux.
> 
> Women’s respect just is, and thereby female respect is something more static. Automatic, deferential, but ultimately unmerited respect simply for being – female respect – is considered a useful tool," R.T.
> 
> And very useful to understand.




Respect means recognizing that your partner is a whole person, and not just a way to get something you want. 

The OP doesn’t see his wife as a person but as a means to himself.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Of course, we're just ''judging'' your marriage based on the OP, but just going from that, it seems like you have a parent/child relationship with your wife, not an equal partnership. Sure, she could be depressed, but sounds like you have acted more like a father to her, scolding her, talking down to her, etc...than looking at her as an equal partner. She might like that set up, too.These ''arrangements'' don't happen overnight, but if you want her to step up and act responsibly, then you need to treat her as an equal.

Perhaps, that is where the conversations should go - unless you like the father/child relationship because it probably makes you feel powerful, when convenient. Now, it's not convenient.

So, maybe just think on the dynamic of your relationship and how it got to be this way. That will be helpful to see where to go from there.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Girl_power said:


> Respect means recognizing that your partner is a whole person, and not just a way to get something you want.
> 
> The OP doesn’t see his wife as a person but as a means to himself.


That's definitely a woman's perspective of respect.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

StillSearching said:


> That's definitely a woman's perspective of respect.


I find this a very disturbing viewpoint.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> That's definitely a woman's perspective of respect.




I googled respect in relationships and that is what came up.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

What I'd like to see us as a culture get away from, is making excuses for women's poor behavior or choices in general, but men are always accountable. Examples are - If a wife (from what I've seen on these forums) is treating her husband poorly, she must be depressed, or have issues that are unresolved, or he must have done something to deserve this. If a guy cheats or isn't interested in sex, or doesn't want to work - he is usually dubbed a villain. Double standards be strong on here lol

The idea that women are always victims and men are always the victimizers is really insulting to me as a woman, because if I make bad choices, it's on me. Sure, I could blame it on many things, and there are always reasons behind someone's behavior, but in the end, if I ''play dumb'' or treat my husband less than he deserves, it's on me. I remember a story on here last year maybe, whereby a wife cheated on her husband at a party with a guy that was there, and her husband left her at the party. Not sure where he went, but he couldn't stay, and so many people here blamed the husband for why his wife slept with the guy at the party. lol The excuses ranged from she probably didn't want to but the guy forced her, to the husband is a jerk for leaving his wife at a party alone, to she has problems and is afraid of telling people no, etc.

The interesting part is that the wife in the story admitted she was wrong, and asked for forgiveness, but so many people on here didn't believe her, and felt she was the victim. Granted, none of us were there, but the immediate reaction is my point - that women are usually victims, and shouldn't be held accountable.

Also, this constant coddling of women sort of diminishes those who are truly victims. Not everyone is a victim, sometimes, people...men AND women make bad choices.

So, OP - I stand by my first post, but your wife is an adult, and it's time for you to treat her as such, and her to act like such.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Marduk said:


> I find this a very disturbing viewpoint.


LOL!


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

*Deidre* said:


> What I'd like to see us as a culture get away from, is making excuses for women's poor behavior or choices in general, but men are always accountable. Examples are - If a wife (from what I've seen on these forums) is treating her husband poorly, she must be depressed, or have issues that are unresolved, or he must have done something to deserve this. If a guy cheats or isn't interested in sex, or doesn't want to work - he is usually dubbed a villain. Double standards be strong on here lol
> 
> *The idea that women are always victims and men are always the victimizers* is really insulting to me as a woman, because if I make bad choices, it's on me. Sure, I could blame it on many things, and there are always reasons behind someone's behavior, but in the end, if I ''play dumb'' or treat my husband less than he deserves, it's on me. I remember a story on here last year maybe, whereby a wife cheated on her husband at a party with a guy that was there, and her husband left her at the party. Not sure where he went, but he couldn't stay, and so many people here blamed the husband for why his wife slept with the guy at the party. lol The excuses ranged from she probably didn't want to but the guy forced her, to the husband is a jerk for leaving his wife at a party alone, to she has problems and is afraid of telling people no, etc.
> 
> ...


It's 2019 get with the program...... *tongue in cheek*


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

StillSearching said:


> It's 2019 get with the program...... *tongue in cheek*


Yea, I mean sure there are situations in which either men or women could be true ''victims,'' through no fault of their own. But, I keep hearing about how depressed women are...as if this is an inevitable default position for most women when they mess up. 

I rarely if ever see these excuses given to men as a pass for why they don't want to have sex, or why they are cheating, or why they're unemployed. If men don't want to have sex, they must be cheating, or addicted to porn, or having a secret life, or are just jerks.

If women don't want to work, or don't want to have sex...they are somehow a victim of the husband...or the husband is controlling...of they have unresolved issues...or they're depressed.

Sure, all of those things could be true, but none of those things could be true, as well.

My dad is a sexist, and thinks women are not as strong as men when it comes to making decisions, that we need men to fend for us, etc. I worked hard to get away from that mentality, so maybe this stuff just jumps out at me, when I see it.

ETA - I've noticed so many stories on here where the wife is downright emotionally abusive to her husband, and the husband is posting looking for advice...so much of the advice, is how to become a better husband, what he might be doing wrong, how he can try harder, etc. 

No, if a good man has a horrible wife, he should leave her...and stop bending over backwards to take the blame for why the entire marriage is in ruins. Even the men who are being abused make the same excuses for their wives' behaviors. 

If we women want equality, then we should expect to be responsible for our actions, even if the culture tells us we have a million reasons why we don't have to be. I just want a different narrative.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I don’t know what’s more ridiculous - someone asserting that all women view respect in the same misogynistic way, or a man claiming to speak for all women in the first place.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Marduk said:


> I don’t know what’s more ridiculous - someone asserting that all women view respect in the same misogynistic way, or a man claiming to speak for all women in the first place.


Yea, I liked Girl_power's post.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderation note:- *

Please knock off the threadjacking, OK?


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## vincent3 (May 31, 2018)

OP, did you and your wife have any discussions before marriage about these kinds of expectations? If you didn't, is it reasonable in your community for her to assume you would shoulder the full financial burden?

Instead of reading up on depression, get recommendations for a family counselor who isn't biased and let the counselor make any such diagnoses. If she is depressed, what is causing the depression? Is she depressed because she doesn't feel exactly like post-pumpkin Cinderella? Whatever the reason, don't buy into any tripe about you being automatically to blame for her depression. Accept any blame that is reasonably yours, and reject any blame that isn't.

Until things improve, you might consider going celibate. She's obviously of the mindset that it's your male duty to fully be the financial provider, and she most probably doesn't like sleeping with a man who expects her to work. Some women have written about going through with it just for the transaction. Are you okay with it happening under those circumstances?

Deirdre, I appreciate your post about women who are failing in their marriages being shielded with a lay-diagnosis of depression. That's insulting to men and women both.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> "*because she knows I won't leave her*"
> 
> This is your problem. Not hers - yours.


THIS right here is your downfall. Why the hell would she put in effort she doesnt want to? Unless she has even a small fear of losing you, she sees no reason to change up her status quo. You are shooting yourself in the foot.


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## NickitaXenon (Nov 27, 2020)

I try to make my family happy. This is how I make myself happy. Find your favorite business and then it will not be a problem for you at all


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Oh my god. ‘Support them til they snap out of it’???

People don’t snap out of depression. They recover, or stay the same, and they can even commit suicide.

It’s an illness. A serious illness.

I could hold you accountable for her illness.

But I won’t.


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