# Why would a woman accept a marriage but then accept no sex from H?



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Yes, this is total threadjack from the other similar thread, but I think women living in loveless/sexless marriages is a greater mystery. 

For many men, I can understand it..... it's harder for most men to get a good sex life in the first place and when they do get with someone that at least at one time appeared to consent to sex with them,, it's hard to walk away when that dries up because they had a very hard time finding someone in the first place. And now that they are balder and fatter and more set in their ways, starting over often appears particularly daunting if not even near impossible task. (I'm not necessarily saying that it is impossible for men to start over.. in many ways it's much easier for a mature man in their 30s, 40s and beyond than in their younger days. But I am saying to the individual man, it may seem very daunting at the time)

So unless a guy is a star athlete, rock star, celebrity, very rich or unusually good looking, sex is always a challenge for men. So I kind of get why men may settle into sexless marriages. 

But women???? Women have to fight off sexual advances from puberty on. We have to teach women self defense and rape awareness to keep from having sex forced upon them against their will. 

A woman can download a phone app and have a hook up arranged in less than an hour. 

A woman can walk into any bar in any town at any of the hour day or night and hook up right there in the bathroom or parking lot. 

Now yes yes yes, I get it... not many if any women will actually choose to do that - but my point is THEY CAN. 

Another difference between the boys and the girls is men won't care that a woman is married if he has a chance to score and there is at least a slight chance he won't get caught and beat up or a chance that he may not get an STI. Men will line up to some WWs boytoy. 

Conversely, very few women will knowingly be some married guy's side piece. The old radio talk show host Mancow used to have a saying - "Do you know which men cheat on their wives?? Answer = "the ones who can." 

So yes, when I read these stories of men who's wives haven't touched them in literally years and yet they stay with them, I do ask myself how they can tolerate that and accept that. But a part of me does kind of get it because I understand the struggle of the Average Joe. 

But what truly boggles my mind is when we have women here that have been denied and rejected for years. First off I can't understand any man turning down his wife ever but that's a whole other topic. 

But when someone is being denied something that is so easy for the Average Jane to get is a whole other level of mystery. 

Now I certainly understand the issue of kids and bills and that many of the husbands are the primary breadwinner etc etc. But something that is so easy as a phone app where you can meet someone on the way to the grocery store, the real question we need to be asking is why WOMEN tolerate it.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I"m not in a sexless marriage. But I can assure you that if we were sexless due to him and I still felt loved I wouldn't leave or stew. I feel loved many ways other than sex.


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

Frankly, I think most men place a higher priority on sex in a relationship than most women do (I say "most" because there are always exceptions of course). And I'm saying this as a woman who DOES like sex, and who has a fine collection of lingerie and a satisfied boyfriend. But I think that if you had a bunch of people list their top 10 priorities in a healthy relationship, men would put sex at the very top, whereas for a lot of women it would come in at #5 or #6 or #7 on the list. That doesn't mean these women want to live in a sexless marriage, but it does mean they might be more willing to look past the lack of sex than most men are, especially if other things in the relationship are working.

From some of the threads I've read here, posted by unhappy husbands, it seems there are women who don't even have sex on their list at all.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> I"m not in a sexless marriage. But I can assure you that if we were sexless due to him and I still felt loved I wouldn't leave or stew. I feel loved many ways other than sex.


Ok that is a very safe narrative that makes you look like a good and kind and understanding person. 

But let’s be real, If a man is denying and rejecting his wife sexually, he’s probably not doing anything else to show his love either.

He may be paying bills and providing a roof and food (and obviously for some women that is enough to stay) but would a man who rejects his wife physically, really express love in any other meaningful ways???

And I’m not really talking about ED here as there are lots of other ways to please and satisfy someone besides PIV. 

I’m talking about actual rejection and denial. 

If a man is sexually rejecting his wife, there is at least a 95% he is rejecting and denying her in many ways.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Ok that is a very safe narrative that makes you look like a good and kind and understanding person.
> 
> But let’s be real, If a man is denying and rejecting his wife sexually, he’s probably not doing anything else to show his love either.
> 
> ...


Ok first off you are changing the target. Maybe I'm not initiating. No one said he was rejecting me. But I know men particularly men of your vein have a hard time believing this but I"m responsive desire. I can go from having sex 5-10 times a week to nothing and after about 3 days it just doesn't really cross my mind too much.

My husband does all kinds of loving things. If he stopped being loving then yes I would then be upset but it would have nothing to do with sex.

And that's the differences between the sexes. Men don't think of the other things women do as loving if they aren't getting sex. I am also fully aware there are many women who wouldn't put up with it either. We have women on this board who have had this trouble and divorced over it.

ETA: I'm not trying to be good and understanding. It just isn't a requirement for me.
I am fairly high maintenance so it isn't like I would just put up with anything. It's just that isn't my line in the sand.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ok first off you are changing the target. Maybe I'm not initiating. No one said he was rejecting me. But I know men particularly men of your vein have a hard time believing this but I"m responsive desire. I can go from having sex 5-10 times a week to nothing and after about 3 days it just doesn't really cross my mind too much.
> 
> My husband does all kinds of loving things. If he stopped being loving then yes I would then be upset but it would have nothing to do with sex.
> 
> ...


I guess I’m not sure what men of my vein are. I didn’t know I even had a vein LOL 😆 

But anyway I guess my point is that while I understand that actual sex may not be your line in the sand, I’m willing to bet that a man that would reject his wife sexually, isn’t even on the beach with her in terms of doing other loving things with/for her. 

If a guy rejects a woman sexually, he will likely reject her in many other ways as well.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I guess I’m not sure what men of my vein are. I didn’t know I even had a vein LOL 😆
> 
> But anyway I guess my point is that while I understand that actual sex may not be your line in the sand, I’m willing to bet that a man that would reject his wife sexually, isn’t even on the beach with her in terms of doing other loving things with/for her.
> 
> If a guy rejects a woman sexually, he will likely reject her in many other ways as well.


Again that isn't the question. For instance this thread is one that is made to 'be equal' with the lack of sex for a man thread.

Many women who don't sleep with their husbands still make them lunch, dinner, clean the house, cook them special treats, make sure they eat healthy, bug them to go to the doctor when they are sick because they love them. This is how many women show love. Men just only 'hear' it when it's sex.

If my husband still made me coffee in the morning, listened and talked to me about my day and his day, participated in our shared hobbies/life then no sex would be ok.

On the other hand if the quit being loving then yeah we'd have a problem. You see you changed the goals. You are talking about just being a bad husband not just lack of sex.

ETA: how many men who come say they love their wife and everything is great except the sex? So in their mind their wives are being complete biotches but they also aren't having their needs met.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Yes, this is total threadjack from the other similar thread, but I think women living in loveless/sexless marriages is a greater mystery.
> 
> For many men, I can understand it..... it's harder for most men to get a good sex life in the first place and when they do get with someone that at least at one time appeared to consent to sex with them,, it's hard to walk away when that dries up because they had a very hard time finding someone in the first place. And now that they are balder and fatter and more set in their ways, starting over often appears particularly daunting if not even near impossible task. (I'm not necessarily saying that it is impossible for men to start over.. in many ways it's much easier for a mature man in their 30s, 40s and beyond than in their younger days. But I am saying to the individual man, it may seem very daunting at the time)
> 
> ...


I just cant agree. Men can get casual hooks up just as much as women can, especially now with things like tinder. Female prostitutes are much more plentiful than male ones as well. If that is what people wants they can get it. 

I actually came across a woman on a forum abour 10 years back. Her husband wasnt intetested in sex, yet other than that they loved each other very much and had a strong marriage. He treated her very well. He spent 6 months of every year at sea because he was a merchant seaman, then 6 months at home. It did occur to a couple of us that he may be gay, she said not but who knows. 
She focused her energencies on hobbies and crafts and didnt want to end their quite long marriage. 
Personally I wouldnt leave a men for lack of sex unless we were young and I wanted children. Sex is important in marriage but there are many other important acpects. I would rather be with a great man with no sex than a not so great one with sex.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Again that isn't the question. For instance this thread is one that is made to 'be equal' with the lack of sex for a man thread.
> 
> Many women who don't sleep with their husbands still make them lunch, dinner, clean the house, cook them special treats, make sure they eat healthy, bug them to go to the doctor when they are sick because they love them. This is how many women show love. Men just only 'hear' it when it's sex.
> 
> ...


If I make her morning coffee, there's going to be sex when she wakes up. That's a 90 percenter, unless we're dealing with family stuff.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> If I make her morning coffee, there's going to be sex when she wakes up. That's a 90 percenter, unless we're dealing with family stuff.


Not even sure what this is supposed to do with the topic you started. You aren't going to be a man in a man sexless marriage so.....


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Not even sure what this is supposed to do with the topic you started. You aren't going to be a man in a man sexless marriage so.....


You stated....if my H still made my coffee in the morning it would be ok if we didn't have a sex life.

Morning coffee contrast shown, morning coffee can have different meanings.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

I posted part of my situation on the other thread. My reasons for staying is what Anastasia outlined. As far as I knew (while I was unaware of the cheating), he was a good husband.

We were cuddling and sleeping the morning he jumped up to take a call from "work" and I cornered him. He was affectionate, always had a reasonable explanation and appealed to my sense of fairness. After all, sex wasn't possible for me at times (illness, surgery). 

Do you just throw everything out because it's not 100% of what you want when you truly love someone and are committed to your marriage? I decided I could live without sex for him.

Btw, I'm no model, but certainly not a troll. I could have replaced him at any time, if all I wanted was sex.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> I posted part of my situation on the other thread. My reasons for staying is what Anastasia outlined. As far as I knew (while I was unaware of the cheating), he was a good husband.
> 
> We were cuddling and sleeping the morning he jumped up to take a call from "work" and I cornered him. He was affectionate, always had a reasonable explanation and appealed to my sense of fairness. After all, sex wasn't possible for me at times (illness, surgery).
> 
> ...


Yep. I can honestly say I have the best husband in the whole world (at least from my small world view). I'd never give him up because of sex. Until a few years ago when I came to TAM, I wouldn't even have been suspicious.

Now I can say that I'd would trust but verify there was no cheating. I'm sure I'd wonder if it was me. If I was too old or too ugly. I know I'd turn it inward.

But barring something like infidelity. I'm gonna be right here until the day he dies.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yep. I can honestly say I have the best husband in the whole world (at least from my small world view). I'd never give him up because of sex. Until a few years ago when I came to TAM, I wouldn't even have been suspicious.
> 
> Now I can say that I'd would trust but verify there was no cheating. I'm sure I'd wonder if it was me. If I was too old or too ugly. I know I'd turn it inward.
> 
> But barring something like infidelity. I'm gonna be right here until the day he dies.


Are you planning his demise? (Humor, 🙂🙂)


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Are you planning his demise? (Humor, 🙂🙂)


LOL actually I have made him promise more than once I get to die first. I have no idea how I'd go on without him.

I have thought about it as we are middle age and I"m the planner for retirement. I can say I have no idea. We are both horrible or in my opinion wonderfully co-dependent. He's my best friend. I can't get enough time with him.

I know that if he died say soon. I'd probably date or something but I just can't see it. All the other men in the world look so small in comparison. I don't worry too much about getting a date. I am older and such but you know I've always attracted men. I'm sure there would be one out there. I'm also sure most of them just wouldn't be what I wanted.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yep. I can honestly say I have the best husband in the whole world (at least from my small world view). I'd never give him up because of sex. Until a few years ago when I came to TAM, I wouldn't even have been suspicious.
> 
> Now I can say that I'd would trust but verify there was no cheating. I'm sure I'd wonder if it was me. If I was too old or too ugly. I know I'd turn it inward.
> 
> But barring something like infidelity. I'm gonna be right here until the day he dies.


That was my thought process. 

Btw, we did try MC, since he had an EA with another gamer online around the time we stopped having sex. Ironically, I never saw the woman as competition, bc I didn't think she was attractive or intelligent enough to be any kind of threat, and she was married with 3 children. The MC thought we could come back from that, and both of them made me feel it wasn't a huge deal, since it wasn't really cheating.

Maybe I was too gullible and naive. It didn't compute to me that someone could swear they love you, beg you to stay and pretend to be a good husband but not really want me. It shocked everyone in our social circle when we split, we were inseparable, the "dream team".

Btw, you're never too old or ugly to find a relationship if you want one. I had an uncle who got remarried at 70, they spent 10 good years together before he died.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> That was my thought process.
> 
> Btw, we did try MC, since he had an EA with another gamer online around the time we stopped having sex. Ironically, I never saw the woman as competition, bc I didn't think she was attractive or intelligent enough to be any kind of threat, and she was married with 3 children. The MC thought we could come back from that, and both of them made me feel it wasn't a huge deal, since it wasn't really cheating.
> 
> ...


Yes but after so many years of filet mignon do you really want to eat baloney?

I know I probably would for companionship but maybe I'd just find some good girlfriends. I like sex (I like it a lot with my husband) but I don't think sex after my husband would be... worth it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But women???? *Women have to fight off sexual advances from puberty on*. We have to teach women self defense and rape awareness to keep from having sex forced upon them against their will.


That is just not true. There are many women who are below average looks who never get any attention. Fat women rarely get any attention. Women with neither a pretty face nor good boobs rarely get any attention. Women over a certain age, unless they have been great beauties in their time and are aging well, are invisible to most men. Men in the middle age are still many times just looking at young women, not that it will do any good probably. 

You also have to consider that attractive women who are aging would many times rather do without than be with a guy they don't find attractive. They find attractive what they found attractive when younger, just like a lot of men do, whatever that may be. Women in general (exceptions always) aren't desperate enough for sex to just pick whoever will have sex with them. They're not like men, most of them. Women who just have to be living with someone and hate being alone are the women who will mostly take whatever they can get, and those are out there; however, by then, most of them have children and aren't alone until adult kids move out, and then often they still have a lot of company with them and grandkids, if they are that sort of woman. 

Women do not get hit on from cradle to grave. That's complete BS. And to me, it tells me that the only women you consider women are the above average ones, and even then, unless they have a stellar personality, single over a certain age is going to be very limited options for them. The few women I've seen who are attractive to men, say, 50 and up, are vivacious, colorful outgoing women with big boobs. And it's not like they are really being pursued regularly. It's like they are very outgoing and make it happen, and that is rare. Most women aren't that way.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Well I was 'good looking' in my youth. I have a small waist and large breasts even now that I don't weigh 105 anymore. But I can say before Covid and I became a hermit. I still occasionally get hit on even while being older, and over weight. I think if you are friendly and open then people are attracted and I think men will also hit on anything they think might (even the smallest might) say yes. Of course that doesn't mean they want to date you or be with you but face it men actually will hit on almost anything if they think they can stick their penis in it. * caveat* Not all men. 

I started getting hit on and sexually harrassed in 6th grade. I can't say that improved my view of sex. Men wonder why women think they only want sex.....


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes but after so many years of filet mignon do you really want to eat baloney?
> 
> I know I probably would for companionship but maybe I'd just find some good girlfriends. I like sex (I like it a lot with my husband) but I don't think sex after my husband would be... worth it.


You never know, there could be a surf n turf special as a choice, filet mignon with lobster to boot. 
Just kidding. I get you. That is super.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That is just not true. There are many women who are below average looks who never get any attention. Fat women rarely get any attention. Women with neither a pretty face nor good boobs rarely get any attention. Women over a certain age, unless they have been great beauties in their time and are aging well, are invisible to most men. Men in the middle age are still many times just looking at young women, not that it will do any good probably.
> 
> You also have to consider that attractive women who are aging would many times rather do without than be with a guy they don't find attractive. They find attractive what they found attractive when younger, just like a lot of men do, whatever that may be. Women in general (exceptions always) aren't desperate enough for sex to just pick whoever will have sex with them. They're not like men, most of them. Women who just have to be living with someone and hate being alone are the women who will mostly take whatever they can get, and those are out there; however, by then, most of them have children and aren't alone until adult kids move out, and then often they still have a lot of company with them and grandkids, if they are that sort of woman.
> 
> Women do not get hit on from cradle to grave. That's complete BS. And to me, it tells me that the only women you consider women are the above average ones, and even then, unless they have a stellar personality, single over a certain age is going to be very limited options for them. The few women I've seen who are attractive to men, say, 50 and up, are vivacious, colorful outgoing women with big boobs. And it's not like they are really being pursued regularly. It's like they are very outgoing and make it happen, and that is rare. Most women aren't that way.


But have any of your 50 year old friends thought of walking into a bar late at night and start waving their butts in the air like a cat in heat?

Men can't do that... They just get beat up...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But have any of your 50 year old friends thought of walking into a bar late at night and start waving their butts in the air like a cat in heat?
> 
> Men can't do that... They just get beat up...


Bahahaha!!! I almost spit out coffee, laughing.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But have any of your 50 year old friends thought of walking into a bar late at night and start waving their butts in the air like a cat in heat?
> 
> Men can't do that... They just get beat up...


Women could but most don't because we aren't just out for sex. We in general want to be connected to our partners. Hence yet another difference between men and women. Of course there are examples of the opposite on both side but .....

ETA it could also be a big difference in sex. I don't know about every woman but I do know that I and lots of other women don't experience an orgasm with many partners because many men aren't actually as good as they think in bed. 

If I could go out and have earth shattering orgasms then when my husband died sure I might go pick someone up. But many men are duds. 

Many women even after being married don't get orgasms. That is maybe one of the reasons we just aren't obsessed with sex.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes but after so many years of filet mignon do you really want to eat baloney?
> 
> I know I probably would for companionship but maybe I'd just find some good girlfriends. I like sex (I like it a lot with my husband) but I don't think sex after my husband would be... worth it.


I completely understand, that sounds like what I've always wanted for myself. I've stayed on TAM to understand what it takes to achieve that, and how to recognize it when you find it. 

I'm cautiously optimistic that I've found something with potential to be like that.
My bf and I have a fantastic sex/love life. Actually, I appreciate and treasure him even more after reading some men's perspective on here 😂. 

He is lower drive than me, but I appreciate quality and variety over quantity. While sex is important to him, it is not his number 1 priority, he wants a life partner. In fact, he thought I saw him as a talking penis and held back until he was sure I wanted more 😆.
So, I think prioritizing sex is more an individual than a man/woman thing.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> But have any of your 50 year old friends thought of walking into a bar late at night and start waving their butts in the air like a cat in heat?
> 
> Men can't do that... They just get beat up...


No, as far as I know, none of my friends, at any age, did that.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> I completely understand, that sounds like what I've always wanted for myself. I've stayed on TAM to understand what it takes to achieve that, and how to recognize it when you find it.
> 
> I'm cautiously optimistic that I've found something with potential to be like that.
> My bf and I have a fantastic sex/love life. Actually, I appreciate and treasure him even more after reading some men's perspective on here 😂.
> ...


LOL yes TAM has actually made me treasure my husband more as well and convinced me if he dies I'll be the lonely widower.

I have sex with my husband as often as we can. He has back problems and hip problems and an 8 hour refractory period. 

I hope the boyfriend works for you. I know that I'm amazed at how many marriages are just hung up on all the wrong things and how many are unhappy. 

There are men looking for life partners but the men of TAM seem to be focused on sex partners. It mostly makes me sad. 

With your prior experience you should probably be able to determine if you two are compatible.

To me it isn't he or she has to be this...... It is more like your crazy broken parts have to match up with his crazy broken parts. Cause all this talk about finding a mature well balance stable person.... well I'll let you know if I ever meet one of those. AND that person sure a **** wouldn't be right for me cause I'm crazy.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

There are a lot of men that love/adore their wives and yet, no longer have sex with them..There are guys that give up on their wives sexually after childbirth(some experts even suggest that from a sexuality standpoint, it's a bad idea for a guy to witness the birth of his children)...Many women gain a lot of weight and guys lose interest in the bedroom...Even if they still have interest, no one wants to have sex with someone that can't stand their own naked body...That sucks.....But it doesn't have to be all encompassing....again, as I stated in the other thread...its about compartmentalizing...

Sure, women can more easily get sex, but the point a lot of guys don't get when they think of this aspect, is what type of sex are they really getting? Some guys dirty secret??, some guy that is only using them until something better comes along.etc??...That's not fulfilling or even considered an advantage....Ask women and they'll gladly tell you this..

IME women love to nest...If they can have that, in many cases, their lives are complete...Women often have HUGE female support systems in place for a variety of issues that arise, so the lack of sex becomes a very small issue for many women that have all the other things they need emotionally....Again, mileage may vary...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No, as far as I know, none of my friends, at any age, did that.


But they all know they could. 

I understand that most women aren’t going to walk into a bar and say, “here it is, come and get it boys!!” I realize that’s not what women are after (thank God or society would fall for sure!)

I also get that middle aged women aren’t getting hit on brazenly day and night even if they are good looking. 

That’s because most men have learned how to control and conduct themselves appropriately and a lot of places such as work places and gyms and what not have actual rules against it as well and just general rules of polite society. 

But as I stated in my OP, in less than one hour on Tinder, ANY woman could have a hook up lined up. .....and you all know that. 

And your point about men using Tinder isn’t really valid because statistically the vast majority of men do not get any responses at all. 

Which brings me back to my original question - why would a woman accept a sexless/loveless relationship when sexual attention and opportunity comes so easily to them? 

I realize sex and love are not necessarily the same thing for women. But if something is so easy to obtain, why go without?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But they all know they could.
> 
> I understand that most women aren’t going to walk into a bar and say, “here it is, come and get it boys!!” I realize that’s not what women are after (thank God or society would fall for sure!)
> 
> ...


But do you realize sex and love aren't the same because you are conflating them.

For women sex is easy to come by. Orgasms not so much. I wonder how focused men would be on sex if they got an orgasm 1 out of 10 times and were expected to enthusiatically service their partner who was already getting orgasms? They had to be pretty enough, thin enough, vocal enough, dominate enough or submissive enough or adventerous enough .......

Love is much harder to come by and very different for women. Why would I give up love for sex?


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## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

A lot of women aren't interested in sex without some kind of emotional connection, and you can't set that up in 20 minutes on tinder.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But they all know they could.
> 
> I understand that most women aren’t going to walk into a bar and say, “here it is, come and get it boys!!” I realize that’s not what women are after (thank God or society would fall for sure!)
> 
> ...


No. That just isn't true. I can't believe you actually believe that! I didn't say anything at all about Tinder, by the way, so that was someone else you must be referring to. But no, all women can't just get sexual interest on demand. That's really warped, OS.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anastasia6 said:


> Women could but most don't because we aren't just out for sex. We in general want to be connected to our partners. Hence yet another difference between men and women. Of course there are examples of the opposite on both side but .....
> 
> ETA it could also be a big difference in sex. I don't know about every woman but I do know that I and lots of other women don't experience an orgasm with many partners because many men aren't actually as good as they think in bed.
> 
> ...


And most women, if all they want is an orgasm, can have one in about 2 minutes practicing at home alone. I only have known one woman desperate for sex like so many men are (when I say desperate, I mean feeling an intense need to get it), and she was bipolar and also diagnosed narcissistic, in need of constant attention, and she did some desperate measures, but she's an anomaly. And most of her need was really for attention more than just orgasm, which she would regularly get with her toy she kept handy. Aside from prostitutes, she was the most overt in soliciting attention and sex I ever knew. And she did it whispering, but also by trying to be hugely entertaining and laughing to get attention focused her direction. She didn't have much luck in her older years, even though she was a big-boobed blond.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anastasia6 said:


> LOL yes TAM has actually made me treasure my husband more as well and convinced me if he dies I'll be the lonely widower.
> 
> I have sex with my husband as often as we can. He has back problems and hip problems and an 8 hour refractory period.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I hope so too! My bf's been divorced for over 12 years, and could take or leave marriage but wants to live with a partner. He broke off his last relationship due to incompatibility although his sexual needs were met. I'm still wrestling my demons, so not leaning towards marriage atm (if ever).

Interestingly, none of the men I've had serious relationships with prioritized sex, I guess I attract the sensitive types. We had a sex discussion very early on. I explained my former situation and made it clear I was not interested in a sexless relationship again, especially while I'm still young enough to enjoy a varied less mainstream sex life.

Although our drives aren't matched, (he's good with twice a week, 12 hr refractory, I'm an everyday gal) our dynamic satisfies me. He's always willing to accommodate my needs with toys, etc, is incredibly affectionate and we have a lot of fun together. He's a Southern gentleman and I amuse myself trying to shock him 😉

I need physical touch to feel loved and connected, but that doesn't necessarily mean sex. I wouldn't turn it down if it's on the menu though 😋, but it better be more than 5 minutes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Chaotic said:


> A lot of women aren't interested in sex without some kind of emotional connection, and you can't set that up in 20 minutes on tinder.


But yet women are hooking up on Tinder every day.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No. That just isn't true. I can't believe you actually believe that! I didn't say anything at all about Tinder, by the way, so that was someone else you must be referring to. But no, all women can't just get sexual interest on demand. That's really warped, OS.


Ooops, yes the Tinder was something Diana brought up. 

But getting back to the topic, I can't believe that you actually believe that women can't get sexual interest on demand. You don't really think that do you?? I can understand someone being uncomfortable with that fact, but you really don't believe that there are women out there that would not be able to hook up if they so wanted do you?

Let's separate some things to make it fair. I understand that there are women that may find it challenging to marry a tall, handsome, executive with six-pack abs that will marry her and completely support her for life. 

But sexual attention???? C'mon. At least be reasonable.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think, to the point my girls here have made, it depends on where sex falls on the list of priorities and what else you have in the relationship. I do think in general women value it less then men, but it's also dependent on other things like where you are in life and how you feel about yourself.

For me sex is far more importance now then it was when I was younger. My kids are grown and I understood my sexuality much better, and with my endurance training I'm in great shape. At this point in my life I'm not with my kids father and don't have a long life built with someone so if we can't have a sexual relationship I'm not interested. There are plenty of men who want one, and I'm quite independent financially so I certainly don't need one to pay my bills.

I haven't found it to be the case that middle aged men all want younger women. It could be the circles I run in but most of the middle aged and older guys are either with or looking for partners close enough in age to share experiences with. I know runners in their 50's and 60's that are running around with bf's, and there are almost no single women in the cycling clubs. If you're single and don't want to be there are a ton of men looking, and all of the cycling couples I can think of are comparably aged.

My 56 year old bf very much wants sex so we have a great time. But at this point the relationship is more then sex, so if he starts to have medical issues I wouldn't dump him. If he started actually rejecting me sexually beyond medical issues I suspect bigger problems would be involved. If we end up parting ways I have zero interest in someone who doesn't want a sex life with me, but I am only 47 so that could change the older I get.

But as much as I like sex I have no interest in a bar hookup.....I need some kind of connection and exclusivity.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> But do you realize sex and love aren't the same because you are conflating them.
> 
> 
> Love is much harder to come by and very different for women. Why would I give up love for sex?


I do realize that they can be two different things. 

And if a woman can pull off live without sex, I can see that some will accept that. 

But the point I was trying to get across to is in real world practice, If a guy is denying sex to his wife, he’s likely not very loving in other ways either.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But the point I was trying to get across to is in real world practice, If a guy is denying sex to his wife, he’s likely not very loving in other ways either.


And the follow up question that immediately comes to mind is if a man is physically capable of having sex but is denying his partner anyway - Is he actually loving AT ALL?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I do realize that they can be two different things.
> 
> And if a woman can pull off live without sex, I can see that some will accept that.
> 
> But the point I was trying to get across to is in real world practice, If a guy is denying sex to his wife, he’s likely not very loving in other ways either.


And what I"m pointing out is that isn't necessarily true.

You didn't know what I meant by your vein in one of my earlier comments. It is the vein of men that just can't fathom love being separate from sex. Sex is your number one priority. Sex is God, sex is king. 

It isn't a bad thing or a good thing but it isn't the only thing for all men.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> And the follow up question that immediately comes to mind is if a man is physically capable of having sex but is denying his partner anyway - Is he actually loving AT ALL?


And to you the ONLY way to express love is sex.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Ooops, yes the Tinder was something Diana brought up.
> 
> But getting back to the topic, I can't believe that you actually believe that women can't get sexual interest on demand. You don't really think that do you?? I can understand someone being uncomfortable with that fact, but you really don't believe that there are women out there that would not be able to hook up if they so wanted do you?
> 
> ...


Dude, I AM a woman. Who do you think has a better perspective on it, me or you? I like you, OS, but you are deluded!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> LOL actually I have made him promise more than once I get to die first. I have no idea how I'd go on without him.
> 
> I have thought about it as we are middle age and I"m the planner for retirement. I can say I have no idea. We are both horrible or in my opinion wonderfully co-dependent. He's my best friend. I can't get enough time with him.
> 
> I know that if he died say soon. I'd probably date or something but I just can't see it. All the other men in the world look so small in comparison. I don't worry too much about getting a date. I am older and such but you know I've always attracted men. I'm sure there would be one out there. I'm also sure most of them just wouldn't be what I wanted.


I already know that I wouldn't date again if my husband died first, but we are older, in our 60's, so that may make a difference.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Dude, I AM a woman. Who do you think has a better perspective on it, me or you? I like you, OS, but you are deluded!


Hear me roar!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Dude, I AM a woman. Who do you think has a better perspective on it, me or you? I like you, OS, but you are deluded!


Actually being man in this case may be more relevant. You don't think every woman could get a hook up on demand, but that is you aren't on the hunt for women. Take it from a man, if a woman wants a hook up there will be a man willing to help her out.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Actually being man in this case may be more relevant. You don't think every woman could get a hook up on demand, but that is you aren't on the hunt for women. Take it from a man, if a woman wants a hook up there will be a man willing to help her out.


If a man wants a hook up he will be able to do the same.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> If a man wants a hook up he will be able to do the same.


That one is not true. That's a big overestimation of a male's ability to get sex from a female.

The only men that can hook up with a woman on any given night are the men that are in the top 20% of the population.
The bottom 80% have to wait until marriage before they have the opportunity for any extensive sexual experiences.

The only exception to that is if a man shells out the cash for an escort. 
Mind you. I think the cost of an escort and a dinner date is about the same.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

I’m just here for the comments from men who know all about women. 🤷🏻‍♀️

As for men rejecting wives, it’s heartbreaking for the women. And very strange. As for the ones who are actively rejecting the woman beside them, because they may be cheating I’d say the cheating is a front for some other latent issues. I bet in that man’s lifetime… any women who slept with them will tell you they had issues in bed. Sit all the women together over a few decades, and they’d all tell a strange story.

A man chasing too many women, online and here and there, yet not putting out at home, smells a bit funny to me.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I in part left 2 relationships due to no sex from a partner. I have no idea. It wasn't that I wanted nonstop sex. It was that I wanted a partner who acknowledged the importance of sex to a partnership and was willing to work on it with me. And enjoyed sex. Once divorced my experience has been very similar to the comments I have read on here about single moms i. E. Everyone assumes I'm looking for a replacement parent for my son, or sugar daddy, or am otherwise a bad deal. It is definitely not easy to find a halfway decent guy who doesn't think I am out to fleece him and who has some basic dating skills and is willing to deal with my cranky a$$ in the morning before coffee  For them to enjoy sex as well and want to do that regularly with me? I have not met that unicorn yet.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Luckylucky said:


> As for men rejecting wives, it’s heartbreaking for the women. And very strange.


Not all sex is created equal. In what may come as a surprise to some here, any sex is not necessarily sex worth pursuing. It has to be good for us men, too, not just available. 

If your husband is no longer interested in you sexually, it might be that you suck (or don't, as the case may be) in bed.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Actually being man in this case may be more relevant. You don't think every woman could get a hook up on demand, but that is you aren't on the hunt for women. Take it from a man, if a woman wants a hook up there will be a man willing to help her out.


No. But see, those women don't go out where hookups would even happen because they would just get made fun of, just like guys who are 5'0" tall. They are the bespectacled acne'd flatchested pudgy bookworm in school with no detectable personality who are not making themselves a target because they have gotten so much abuse and jeering already. They don't WANT just a hookup from some random creep anyway, so what does this hypothetical prove except that some of you guys think some guys would absolutely have sex with anything or anyone, which I think I've known most of my life, having heard about beastiality and holes in the bathroom wall at a fairly early age. That's a pretty sad commentary on men. 


This just circles back to another thread wherein someone said women could go in the middle of a room and hold her arm up asking for sex and I said, "But they wouldn't." So it's a useless hypothetical, and in my lifetime like in college days, there were girls no guy would go near for fear someone might 1) think they actually were attracted to her or 2) SHE would think he was actually attracted to her. 

Fun fact: Did you know that even before internet porn, a significant percentage of rapists brought magazine porn with them to the scene of the rape? It's something that is never made public because it's too disgusting, but first I heard of it it was something I worked on decades ago (typing it), a soccer mom raped behind a dumpster at a school about dawn while out jogging.  He put the magazine on the ground and watched it while he raped her. After that, I asked around about it to profilers online and found out it was very common. So yeah, there are some men who will use anyone and anything to get off any way they can, and IMO, they're somewhere on the sex offender scale. But I literally have never known or even heard about any women who will in 69 years.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Luckylucky said:


> As for men rejecting wives, it’s heartbreaking for the women. And very strange. .


I wouldn't say that it was necessarily strange if the dynamic was that the woman was regularly rejecting his advances. 
Once a man becomes acclimatized to a relationship with no sex, he may not want to have sex at all. 

It's not surprising, if a man is rejected much of the time that he might lose interest should the woman decide to do him a favour.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I am not a woman, but I can't imagine some times how difficult it could be, esp at the beginning of a relationship to "give themselves up" to a person that could in fact kill or maim them at a drop of a hat....I know thats a bit dramatic, but this kinda stuff happens every day all over the world ...I would have absolutely no conception of what that feeling could be like....

So all this talk of women being so easily sexed and all the available options they have make kind of no sense....Sure it's options, but so many variables....

Heck, most guys know a woman is deeply into them when they agree to hit the sack....With women there is so much to doubt and be concerned about...


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> If a man wants a hook up he will be able to do the same.


Sorry, but that's just not true.


jonty30 said:


> The bottom 80% have to wait until marriage before they have the opportunity for any extensive sexual experiences.


But I don't think this is accurate either.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I am not a woman, but I can't imagine some times how difficult it could be, esp at the beginning of a relationship to "give themselves up" to a person that could in fact kill or maim them at a drop of a hat....I know thats a bit dramatic, but this kinda stuff happens every day all over the world ...I would have absolutely no conception of what that feeling could be like....
> 
> So all this talk of women being so easily sexed and all the available options they have make kind of no sense....Sure it's options, but so many variables....
> 
> Heck, most guys know a woman is deeply into them when they agree to hit the sack....With women there is so much to doubt and be concerned about...


Maim is a good choice of words, I have a couple of friends who are lovely and so loyal, I’ve known them since childhood. Their husbands actively reject them and when those silent tears fall during a girl’s talk, it’s simply devastating to watch that woman’s pain. 😣🙁


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

bobert said:


> Sorry, but that's just not true.
> 
> But I don't think this is accurate either.


I'm not saying the bottom 80% are completely absent of sexual experiences, but they cannot just go out on any given night and take a girl home with them. Their advantage in the sexual marketplace is their willingness to commit in exchange for sex. If a girl is not looking for a commitment, the bottom 80% will generally not be considered by the top 60% of women.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Dude, I AM a woman. Who do you think has a better perspective on it, me or you? I like you, OS, but you are deluded!


How many women have you been married to? How many women have you had sex with and long term sexual relationships with?

Actually being a man gives me a different perspective on men sexually rejecting/denying women as well as perspective on how men respond to women sexually. 

Now there are probably some women that are so gross that they can't get a guy to have sex with them. But they are probably as allusive as Bigfoot and would have to basically look like a sasquatch as well. 

now as far as a satisfying, full-service relationship - sure, that is a whole other topic and a whole other set of challenges. but sex? No way. ANY woman can get sex at the touch of a phone screen. 

It may not be her first choice or umpteeth choice,, but there will be countless options and opportunities.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> If a man wants a hook up he will be able to do the same.


some can but many cannot.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

As someone who stayed for years in a sexless marriage I feel qualified to answer the question as asked.

I stayed because leaving seemed way to overwhelming. I had 3 very small children, my mother lived in an in-law apartment in my house, and it seemed easier to pretend the problem didn’t exist than yo uproot my mother and my kids. I also wasn’t all that satisfied with the little bit of sex I was getting so it didn’t seem like such a loss. my sex drive was pretty low after having 3 kids so quickly.

At that time my ex was still giving me intimacy in the form of attention, hand holding, cuddling, quality time together. That went away when he started to worry I’d ask for sex if he did those things. Ironically, if he hadn’t also withheld those forms of intimacy we’d still be together. Once my kids were mostly grown and my mother had passed my reasons for staying we’re gone.

It all worked out…I’m now with someone who gives me all that, wants all that from me as well, and has a very compatible sex drive to mine. Life is good.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anastasia6 said:


> And to you the ONLY way to express love is sex.


You are skirting around the issue by trying to poke at me. But It's not about me at all. 

Now if your position to the original question of why a woman would accept a sexless marriage is because she may be OK with expressions of love and such from other means, then OK that is a fair answer. 

But how often do you think in real-world practice that a man that is physically capable of sex, but actively rejects his wife sexually is actually loving in those other ways?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jonty30 said:


> That one is not true. That's a big overestimation of a male's ability to get sex from a female.
> 
> The only men that can hook up with a woman on any given night are the men that are in the top 20% of the population.
> The bottom 80% have to wait until marriage before they have the opportunity for any extensive sexual experiences.
> ...


Most men have a fair amount of sexual experience before they marry. 
I just don't go with what you say at all.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> some can but many cannot.


Same for women though.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

notmyjamie said:


> As someone who stayed for years in a sexless marriage I feel qualified to answer the question as asked.
> 
> I stayed because leaving seemed way to overwhelming. I had 3 very small children, my mother lived in an in-law apartment in my house, and it seemed easier to pretend the problem didn’t exist than yo uproot my mother and my kids. I also wasn’t all that satisfied with the little bit of sex I was getting so it didn’t seem like such a loss. my sex drive was pretty low after having 3 kids so quickly.
> 
> ...



Thank you for actually addressing the question posed.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> Most men have a fair amount of sexual experience before they marry.
> I just don't go with what you say at all.


Not as much as most women.

Women have more sexual partners than men do (iol.co.za)
*CMV: Women are only attracted to the top 20% of men. : PurplePillDebate (reddit.com) *

It's reality. Women, looking for casual experiences, will generally only do it with the most attractive men they can get. It is only when they are looking for men that they can trust and be committed to do they start looking below Mount Olympus.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Same for women though.


I simply don't believe that. I do not believe that to be true at all. At least not in the same sense as men. 

Some women may struggle to find satisfactory relationships and marriages with the men they actually want. 

But I don't believe that a statistically significant number of women would not be able to have sex if they wanted to. 

Some women may need to assure the guy that they would not try to pursue a relationship and not hold it against them if no relationship were to occur. Some may need to promise to keep it discreet. 

But I don't believe many women would have any trouble getting sexual engagement at all.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> LOL actually I have made him promise more than once I get to die first. I have no idea how I'd go on without him.
> 
> I have thought about it as we are middle age and I"m the planner for retirement. I can say I have no idea. We are both horrible or in my opinion wonderfully co-dependent. He's my best friend. I can't get enough time with him.
> 
> I know that if he died say soon. I'd probably date or something but I just can't see it. All the other men in the world look so small in comparison. I don't worry too much about getting a date. I am older and such but you know I've always attracted men. I'm sure there would be one out there. I'm also sure most of them just wouldn't be what I wanted.


You know, there's a lot of things you and I don't agree on (based upon numerous comments by both of us) but I just wanted to tell you the guy you're with is lucky. You sound totally devoted to this guy and very loyal. Very rare what the two of you have. Cherish it (and I know you do)!!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> How many women have you been married to? How many women have you had sex with and long term sexual relationships with?
> 
> Actually being a man gives me a different perspective on men sexually rejecting/denying women as well as perspective on how men respond to women sexually.
> 
> ...


That's just crazy.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> That one is not true. That's a big overestimation of a male's ability to get sex from a female.
> 
> The only men that can hook up with a woman on any given night are the men that are in the top 20% of the population.
> The bottom 80% have to wait until marriage before they have the opportunity for any extensive sexual experiences.
> ...


That is just not true. All kinds of guys get laid. It has more to do with confidence and being realistic than anything else.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That is just not true. All kinds of guys get laid. It has more to do with confidence and being realistic than anything else.


The only guys who can match women, by choice, are the top 20%.
Everybody else is, to one degree or another, less.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> I'm not saying the bottom 80% are completely absent of sexual experiences, but they cannot just go out on any given night and take a girl home with them. Their advantage in the sexual marketplace is their willingness to commit in exchange for sex. If a girl is not looking for a commitment, the bottom 80% will generally not be considered by the top 60% of women.


They can if they are realistic about their own attractiveness level.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> You are skirting around the issue by trying to poke at me. But It's not about me at all.
> 
> Now if your position to the original question of why a woman would accept a sexless marriage is because she may be OK with expressions of love and such from other means, then OK that is a fair answer.
> 
> But how often do you think in real-world practice that a man that is physically capable of sex, but actively rejects his wife sexually is actually loving in those other ways?


I thought instead of it being the only way he could express love, that it was the only way he could feel love.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> They can if they are realistic about their own attractiveness level.


The top 60% don't want them, unless the women want marriage. 

Oh sure,$20 to a crack addict and he'll get all the experience he wants.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> The top 60% don't want them, unless the women want marriage.
> 
> Oh sure,$20 to a crack addict and he'll get all the experience he wants.


Seriously if you just date and socialuze within your own attractiveness level, it will do wonders for your sex life.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> I am not a woman, but I can't imagine some times how difficult it could be, esp at the beginning of a relationship to "give themselves up" to a person that could in fact kill or maim them at a drop of a hat....I know thats a bit dramatic, but this kinda stuff happens every day all over the world ...I would have absolutely no conception of what that feeling could be like....
> 
> So all this talk of women being so easily sexed and all the available options they have make kind of no sense....Sure it's options, but so many variables....
> 
> Heck, most guys know a woman is deeply into them when they agree to hit the sack....With women there is so much to doubt and be concerned about...


Keeping the serial killers out of the equation, giving up sex to a woman is very valuable to them….how valuable you ask? About $100-150 for a street ***** who will rock your world. And no doing the dishes or mowing the lawn, or buying dinner at the gate. So it may not be as valuable as some think.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Seriously if you just date and socialuze within your own attractiveness level, it will do wonders for your sex life.


According to women, and how they rate men, those 80% of men are below their station and they should be vying for the bottom 40% of women,.
Crack addicts and $20 at a love hotel.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> According to women, and how they rate men, those 80% of men are below their station and they should be vying for the bottom 40% of women,.
> Crack addicts and $20 at a love hotel.


Well you don't have to depend on whatever propaganda you've read about women or surveys or whatever. If you're consistently not attracting the women you're trying to attract, then you are overestimating your own attractiveness and if getting six is your number one priority then in order to get it you're going to need to take yourself down a peg.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well you don't have to depend on whatever propaganda you've read about women or surveys or whatever. If you're consistently not attracting the women you're trying to attract, then you are overestimating your own attractiveness and if getting six is your number one priority then in order to get it you're going to need to take yourself down a peg.


DownbtR -- the thing you are missing is that dating has changed a lot over the past four decades. The 1950s and the Clevers are long gone. When women have more options, this is what happens. Monogamy was the greatest system in the world for the average to below-average man when Providing was the overriding consideration as it was in the early 20th century. 

Women go up and they can do it easily when they are putting out. Average women are able to get the sexier - even whole package- guys. Less so in clubs and IRL but with social media, the avg woman's chances have increased exponentially. What they cant get is commitment from them. The rub is that average women who sleep with a bunch of hotter guys now think they are entitled to the higher-tier man. How come he won't commit she cries. They don't want those guys in their lane until maybe much later in life when she feels stuck. Jonty is making some accurate statements.

The average guy can't go up, can he? Can average Joe get the hotties? Now he can't even stay in his lane. His option is to go down and apparently that's not going so well either. He better have some bucks and a will to take crap in his 30s or game over for him. Many of these guys are very smart and have elected to bypass the ladies who feel stuck and now seek marriage with them. Why? because they finally are understanding the female mating strategy. It's just the way it is.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

manowar said:


> DownbtR -- the thing you are missing is that dating has changed a lot over the past four decades. The 1950s and the Clevers are long gone. When women have more options, this is what happens. Monogamy was the greatest system in the world for the average to below-average man when Providing was the overriding consideration as it was in the early 20th century.
> 
> Women go up and they can do it easily when they are putting out. Average women are able to get the sexier - even whole package- guys. Less so in clubs and IRL but with social media, the avg woman's chances have increased exponentially. What they cant get is commitment from them. The rub is that average women who sleep with a bunch of hotter guys now think they are entitled to the higher-tier man. How come he won't commit she cries. They don't want those guys in their lane until maybe much later in life when she feels stuck. Jonty is making some accurate statements.
> 
> The average guy can't go up, can he? Can average Joe get the hotties? Now he can't even stay in his lane. His option is to go down and apparently that's not going so well either. He better have some bucks and a will to take crap in his 30s or game over for him. Many of these guys are very smart and have elected to bypass the ladies who feel stuck and now seek marriage with them. Why? because they finally are understanding the female mating strategy. It's just the way it is.



I dunno.....

When I think about the couples I know where the woman is very attractive, in a lot of cases the guy they are with(and have been for decades, had children with, etc) is not the typical Chad...In fact most look like average guys on the street....

They may have other positive attributes, but they aren't leaders of industry, entertainment moguls, pro ball players, or anything like that...

I've always been amazed at how many truly good looking women don't really care all that much about what their partner looks like..I like to joke that it's like they have permanent beer goggles...I mean, none of them would want a troll or a slob, but all this talk guys like to bang on about that women are only selecting the "top tier" of guys is just crazy, IMO....

Lets face it, and maybe I am saying this as a hetero guy, but if you lined up a hundred men and a hundred women off the street and graded them for attractiveness physically, the women would outnumber the guys 5:1 or more...Point being if all attractive women(and even unattractive) did was select equally attractive men, then there would never be enough men to go around...


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Seriously if you just date and socialuze within your own attractiveness level, it will do wonders for your sex life.


That sounds good on the surface, but the problem for men is what Manofwar pointed out - women typically don’t date/hook up at their own level. 

An woman can have sex with a much more attractive guy. She may not be able to secure an exclusive relationship with him, but she can hook up with him. 

A female 4 can hook up with male 6s and 7s and possibly even 8s and higher at the clubs and off of apps. They just can’t secure relationships with them. 

So the male 4s and 5s don’t really have a chance in their own lane. 

And even with the 3s and 4s, the competition will eventually get stiff because there are a whole lot of male 4-6s out there. 

This is why I said in my OP that I kind of understood why men will often accept a sexless marriage. They just see the competition as too stiff out there and not many options for them (I’m not saying it’s a true reality, but at least how they see it). 

But women on the other hand, have lots of sexual opportunity, not only at their own level, but for several degrees higher as well.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno.....
> 
> When I think about the couples I know where the woman is very attractive, in a lot of cases the guy they are with(and have been for decades, had children with, etc) is not the typical Chad...In fact most look like average guys on the street....
> 
> ...


If a woman wants to have an exclusive LTR/marriage and have a home and family with a guy that is committed to her and will support her and feed the kids etc - She usually has to settle for someone less physically attractive than herself because men that are more attractive than her won’t settle for her and will want to be banging other chicks. 

And most male humans are simply not pretty to look at.

In the animal kingdom, it’s usually the males that have the bright colors and the antlers and spectacular plumage etc and the females are plain.

In humans that is reversed. There are very few really good looking men. And the ones there are, are not going to be anxious to settle with one mate because they can get with lots of chicks.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno.....
> 
> When I think about the couples I know where the woman is very attractive, in a lot of cases the guy they are with(and have been for decades, had children with, etc) is not the typical Chad...In fact most look like average guys on the street....
> 
> ...


A lot of what you said I agree with. OS answered it above. 

You are right - there simply are not enough Chads or 'whole package' guys to go around that satisfy the love/provider split. This is the ideal.

So what is it then?



hamadryad said:


> In fact most look like average guys on the street....


Right. it's about having access to the average man's resources. Women select on three criteria: Looks, Status, Money.
You might want to download the Manipulated Man by ester villar. Written by a woman in the 1970s. Read it. Let me know what you think. I don't make this stuff up. It's out there. Guys just don't know. 

Look up the lover/provider dichotomy. Women eventually have to choose. There are men who they really want to be with and then there are guys who are marriage material That's what you are describing. They love the husband, I'm certain, but not in the same way their husband loves the wife. Its how we differ. It just is. This is nature. Its always been this way. Its not about Hallmark or Fairy tales though the lady would like one and too many men believe in them. 

When it comes to Life woman tend to be idealistic and Men pragmatic; when it comes to relationships it is women who are pragmatic and men who are idealistic. 

Chad is usually a crappy provider, poor with finances, not the greatest family man. not stable and predictable like the guys that they marry. Think it through man. Human psychology supports this stuff. Forget the crap you've been blasted with from the time your mom sat you in front of a tv. And forget what your clergyman told you. This is the female mating strategy template. Why the hell do you think they reject so many guys when they are younger.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> That sounds good on the surface, but the problem for men is what Manofwar pointed out - women typically don’t date/hook up at their own level.
> 
> An woman can have sex with a much more attractive guy. She may not be able to secure an exclusive relationship with him, but she can hook up with him.
> 
> ...


What constitutes a 3 or 4 is highly subjective.

Most people fall within the range of average, thus the definition of average. A lot of things within one's control can move someone up to a 6-8....ie fitness/grooming. So in effect the guys who are 3-4 and decide that competition isn't worth it have decided that the effort to up their appeal for more sex isn't worth it.

The issue with the argument that women can get hookups any time they want is that lots of people who like sex don't want hookups. Tinder hookups and relationship sex are two very different things.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> They can if they are realistic about their own attractiveness level.


Doesn't this somewhat contradict your assertion that not all women can get a hook up anytime they want? Couldn't they too just be realistic about their own attractiveness and find someone to hook up with?


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> So in effect the guys who are 3-4 and decide that competition isn't worth it have decided that the effort to up their appeal for more sex isn't worth it.



Good points and yes they can. An ugly guy becomes the founder of Alibaba (check this guy out lol) for instance or Amazon. Their status skyrockets. Looks - Status -- Money. 

But it's in the face. An average guy with a poor face has problems with the ladies. Nothing can be done about the face, because it has to do with bone structure, except perhaps plastic surgery. I believe some guys are now going this route but I'm not sure. these are hard pills to swallow for some. But it is what it is. 

A guy with a great face has smooth sailing with the ladies....Can this be denied?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> If a woman wants to have an exclusive LTR/marriage and have a home and family with a guy that is committed to her and will support her and feed the kids etc - She usually has to settle for someone less physically attractive than herself because men that are more attractive than her won’t settle for her and will want to be banging other chicks.
> 
> *And most male humans are simply not pretty to look at*.
> 
> ...


I think you are being biased by your sexual orientation. Quite often I look at a man that is widely considered very handsome, sexy or whatever adjective you like, and I just don't see it. Just this morning I saw an ad with Brad Pitt. I thought, "you know I just don't see it, is he really good looking?" I have no attraction to men, so it is difficult for me to tell if they a attractive. Now, Chris Hemsworth, he's definitely a hunk  Women on the other hand, I find something attractive in almost all women I see. I don't think you can discount our sexual orientation and how it affect our view on this.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

manowar said:


> Monogamy was the greatest system in the world for the average to below-average man when Providing was the overriding consideration as it was in the early 20th century.


I heard a great saying just the other day -

“Monogamy is the mating Affirmative Action for the common man.” 

There is a lot of truth to that. Monogamy is the distribution of mates to people that would not otherwise be able to get them in natural selection.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I heard a great saying just the other day -
> 
> *“Monogamy is the mating Affirmative Action for the common man.”*
> 
> There is a lot of truth to that. Monogamy is the distribution of mates to people that would not otherwise be able to get them in natural selection.


 Bingo. that's a good one. Again because the emphasis is placed on the Provider category and enforced by the societal structure.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

So wow this thread went to **** fast.

First all people are infuenced by a persons looks. But most women I know after about age 20 start looking at many other qualities. I know what attracted me to my husband was his drive and his compassion. I had just graduated college with a degree in engineering and he was still at Junior college so there goes the money argument plus I had already had richer guys offer to marry me including an 2 engineering majors.

I think many women are influenced by how they are treated. Which explains why many of hot women end up with 'lesser' numbers. You see many of deebs think of I treat her great but she won't give me the time of day so she just doesn't like me due to looks.... No she doesn't like you because you drool over her and treat her no different than a lot of other guys that just want to touch her boobs. Or you treat her nice and never make a move you don't have some manly qualities. I mean I don't need all the **** some act like you need but you do need some manly qualities.

Once a woman find someone who is compatible and she feels loved and safe then thats going to matter more than sex.

This thread has had me thinking about this a lot. Society says..... I he loves you he won't need or demand sex (to teenage girls). How do you think that effects us in the long run..... 

I think for many of us it detaches sex from love as women. And may even explain how wives who love their husbands don't see sex as needed and feel icky when a husband demands sex...

Think about it. I mean actually think don't just red pill vomit every where.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think you are being biased by your sexual orientation. Quite often I look at a man that is widely considered very handsome, sexy or whatever adjective you like, and I just don't see it. Just this morning I saw an ad with Brad Pitt. I thought, "you know I just don't see it, is he really good looking?" I have no attraction to men, so it is difficult for me to tell if they a attractive. Now, Chris Hemsworth, he's definitely a hunk  Women on the other hand, I find something attractive in almost all women I see. I don't think you can discount our sexual orientation and how it affect our view on this.


That’s one of the major differences between the girls and the boys.

Most men find most women at least somewhat attractive. Most men would have sex with most women if it didn’t cost them anything and there was no risk.

Most women do not find most men the least bit attractive. To women, most men are just drones that take up space. 

A lot of women can go there entire lives with only a few men that really soak their panties. 

An typical woman may only encounter a few men in her lifetime that she has genuine burning desire for and few of those women actually marry and ride off into the sunset with 
those men. 

A typical man on the hand will find several women a day very desirable, but he will just be part of the landscape to her.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> That’s one of the major differences between the girls and the boys.
> 
> Most men find most women at least somewhat attractive. Most men would have sex with most women if it didn’t cost them anything and there was no risk.
> 
> ...


I'm curious about how you are able to so clearly understand what women are thinking? Women may not be ripping their panties off for every guy they see, but how do you know they don't find them attractive?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Back to the topic at hand, I think for the same reasons male sexual pursuers stay with their SO. Apparently when there is a libido difference the literature says 20% of the time it is a female sexual pursuer and 80% of the time it is male.

Reading deadbedrooms a while back, they seemed to highly over index on women sexual pursuers there and aside from societal norms their stories were very similar to men’s stories. Not feeling loved or wanted, feeling like a roommate, etc…

I can say in my case being worried about not being able to find someone else to have sex with was not something that popped into my mind at all. In fact it’s a logical first thing to consider. If I like my SO and everything about her, but she won’t have sex with me, why not outsource that?

If you’re not wired for that then it won’t work. It wouldn’t have worked for me.

What I never thought was, woe is me hypergamy and stuff.

When you want to have sex with your SO specifically you’re not concerned with the concept of male/female interaction overall you are literally after exactly one person. 

In this case it’s someone that you were happy with at one point, or you should have been; otherwise committing to them was unwise.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I think where a lot of guys get confused is most women often give guys "extra credit" for intangibles in a man....Men look at tits/asses and hip/waist ratio....A truly attractive woman could be as dumb as a stump and still move to the front of the line...

It's not all about money, status, etc..Heck, a homely and broke guy could be an animal rights activist and make a lot of very attractive women fall head over heels...

If you all don't believe me, just go anywhere that there are couples congregating....You will clearly see mismatched couples in terms of attractiveness..

Rather than whine about this, I think guys should be very thankful that women aren't that particular.. Look at all the crap women have to do to prevent getting old and out of shape, etc...They know that unlike men, a lot of their worth, in terms of attractiveness, becomes directly tied to how far their breasts sag or what their mid section looks like...Stop and be thankful, if you are a man that you don't have to go through all that crap...it must be miserable...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

manowar said:


> Right. it's about having access to the average man's resources. Women select on three criteria: Looks, Status, Money.
> You might want to download the Manipulated Man by ester villar. Written by a woman in the 1970s. Read it. Let me know what you think. I don't make this stuff up. It's out there. Guys just don't know.
> 
> Look up the lover/provider dichotomy. Women eventually have to choose. There are men who they really want to be with and then there are guys who are marriage material That's what you are describing. They love the husband, I'm certain, but not in the same way their husband loves the wife. Its how we differ. It just is. This is nature. Its always been this way. Its not about Hallmark or Fairy tales though the lady would like one and too many men believe in them.
> ...


So then based on your belief in this theory, why do you think that women who truly desire and enjoy regular sex would stay with men who don't want to have sex with them anymore?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

manowar said:


> Good points and yes they can. An ugly guy becomes the founder of Alibaba (check this guy out lol) for instance or Amazon. Their status skyrockets. Looks - Status -- Money.
> 
> But it's in the face. An average guy with a poor face has problems with the ladies. Nothing can be done about the face, because it has to do with bone structure, except perhaps plastic surgery. I believe some guys are now going this route but I'm not sure. these are hard pills to swallow for some. But it is what it is.
> 
> A guy with a great face has smooth sailing with the ladies....Can this be denied?


Sure, a nice face is great. But speaking for myself I've seen very few faces that are terrible. Most of the time the issue is bad teeth/hygiene or a bad hairstyle/facial hair
I'm not a fan of model type faces anyway...I like a more rugged look.

If the dental hygiene is good and the hair (whatever hair their is) is decently styled (I'm including facial hair) whatever flaws a face might otherwise have are usually able to be overcome with good fitness. I see guys with average faces with women all the time but the other stuff is there.

I would think short height is much more prohibitive for a guy and unfortunately nothing can be done about that.

We should all do the best we can with what we've got.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

hamadryad said:


> I think where a lot of guys get confused is most women often give guys "extra credit" for intangibles in a man....Men look at tits/asses and hip/waist ratio....A truly attractive woman could be as dumb as a stump and still move to the front of the line...
> 
> It's not all about money, status, etc..Heck, a homely and broke guy could be an animal rights activist and make a lot of very attractive women fall head over heels...
> 
> ...


That is a great point. For a lot of us women there is something about a man who handles things and makes us feel safe that is very sexy. I'm sure it's related to our vulnerability in the wild.

Men don't have this mindset....theur needs in the wild are different.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> If the dental hygiene is good…


This is a big one for me too. You can take a 10/10 lady and she opens her mouth and her teeth are all mangled, not good.

Teeth are also an indicator of social status. They’re expensive to maintain and keep especially if you’re unlucky and have bad gums/bone density. Keeping them straight for some people is also a pain.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Above is about pre-marriage and selection. often the woman may never have wanted to marry chad (at least in this lifetime) because she knows he's a terrible family man. The wife never expected the DB. Probably family, children, established life are all part of it. And some wives love the husband in all other aspects of their life together. 

This is one reason why a lot of wives cheat right. The compartmentalization of a double life. The hilton hotel guy and husband. Two roles/two men.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> For a lot of us women there is something about *a man who handles things* and *makes us feel safe* that is very sexy. I'm sure it's related to our vulnerability in the wild.


this is huge and incredibly important


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Sure, a nice face is great. But speaking for myself I've seen very few faces that are terrible. Most of the time the issue is bad teeth/hygiene or a bad hairstyle/facial hair
> I'm not a fan of model type faces anyway...I like a more rugged look.
> 
> If the dental hygiene is good and the hair (whatever hair their is) is decently styled (I'm including facial hair) whatever flaws a face might otherwise have are usually able to be overcome with good fitness. I see guys with average faces with women all the time but the other stuff is there.
> ...



all valid points. yeah you like the more masculine guys. In your selection process, the dandy is out of luck.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

manowar said:


> Above is about pre-marriage and selection. often the woman may never have wanted to marry chad (at least in this lifetime) because she knows he's a terrible family man. The wife never expected the DB. Probably family, children, established life are all part of it. And some wives love the husband in all other aspects of their life together.
> 
> This is one reason why a lot of wives cheat right. The compartmentalization of a double life. The hilton hotel guy and husband. Two roles/two men.


Arguably that's the reason a lot of husbands cheat...the compartmentalization of two lives. Plenty of them still have sex with their wives..they just want strange too. And they like having a family and a wife to do for them.

But breaking up one's life is hard, and the risks are great. Maybe that's the gist of why people who want sex with their spouse but don't get it stick around. They have lives built together which are very hard to break up. And if that life is otherwise a good life it's very risky to break it up for sex. From a woman's perspective you have no idea what you'll find beyond dudes willing to bang you, and that's not satisfying for a lot of us.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

manowar said:


> all valid points. yeah you like the more masculine guys. In your selection process, the dandy is out of luck.


But lots of women like dandies 😀


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Just this morning I saw an ad with Brad Pitt. I thought, "you know I just don't see it, is he really good looking?"


He is good looking to women who like that type of look. Personally, I would take a Charlie Bronson over the baby face type. Although, I really wouldn't want to get with a Charlie Bronson (there's just so much craggy I can take).


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well you don't have to depend on whatever propaganda you've read about women or surveys or whatever. If you're consistently not attracting the women you're trying to attract, then you are overestimating your own attractiveness and if getting six is your number one priority then in order to get it you're going to need to take yourself down a peg.


It's how hypergamy works. 

For 80% of the men, that means leaving the top 60% alone and focusing their opportunities on the bottom 40%.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> I dunno.....
> 
> When I think about the couples I know where the woman is very attractive, in a lot of cases the guy they are with(and have been for decades, had children with, etc) is not the typical Chad...In fact most look like average guys on the street....
> 
> ...


I think the smart women think in terms of what they might look like at age 50 and consider marrying a man that looks ok at 50, if he takes care of himself, because men don't really change much if they are taking care of themselves between 25 and 50.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> If a woman wants to have an exclusive LTR/marriage and have a home and family with a guy that is committed to her and will support her and feed the kids etc - She usually has to settle for someone less physically attractive than herself because men that are more attractive than her won’t settle for her and will want to be banging other chicks.
> 
> And most male humans are simply not pretty to look at.
> 
> ...


It's symmetry of face that indicates the health of the male.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Just this morning I saw an ad with Brad Pitt. I thought, "you know I just don't see it, is he really good looking?"


There was a meme that I saw ages ago, that said, 'Men you shouldn't find attractive, but do', and one of them was Alan Rickman. And it was true (for me). 

He was in shape. He had an amazing voice, and I will totally watch a movie solely because he's in it.

I'm still sad that he died so young. 😢


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well you don't have to depend on whatever propaganda you've read about women or surveys or whatever. If you're consistently not attracting the women you're trying to attract, then you are overestimating your own attractiveness and if getting six is your number one priority then in order to get it you're going to need to take yourself down a peg.


All the studies back up what I'm saying. Women can sleep in an upward direction, but they have to come down for a committed relationship. It used to work because less attractive men still could have a committed marriage. Now they can't, so the marriage minded men are opting out of marriage altogether, because there is nothing about a marriage that is of use to a man anymore, period. The men are realizing that when a woman decides to marry, she has very little to offer the men. Look at how many of the men here say the wife won't have sex with them more often then the blue moon.

Consequently, the number one question that thirty year old women are asking, "Where are the men?"

Why Men are Opting Out of Marriage | TRC TRC (thereformedconservative.org)
Why Men Opting-Out Should Make You Angry | HuffPost Communities


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> What constitutes a 3 or 4 is highly subjective.
> 
> Most people fall within the range of average, thus the definition of average. A lot of things within one's control can move someone up to a 6-8....ie fitness/grooming. So in effect the guys who are 3-4 and decide that competition isn't worth it have decided that the effort to up their appeal for more sex isn't worth it.
> 
> The issue with the argument that women can get hookups any time they want is that lots of people who like sex don't want hookups. Tinder hookups and relationship sex are two very different things.


Yes, tinder hookups are the sex that women have with the top 20% of men.
Relationship sex is the maintenance sex that most beta men get comparatively little of.

Consequently, the marriage minded men are foregoing the occasional maintenance sex. There is no point in second place or third place sex.

Why Men Opting-Out Should Make You Angry | HuffPost Communities


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

manowar said:


> DownbtR -- the thing you are missing is that dating has changed a lot over the past four decades. The 1950s and the Clevers are long gone. When women have more options, this is what happens. Monogamy was the greatest system in the world for the average to below-average man when Providing was the overriding consideration as it was in the early 20th century.
> 
> Women go up and they can do it easily when they are putting out. Average women are able to get the sexier - even whole package- guys. Less so in clubs and IRL but with social media, the avg woman's chances have increased exponentially. What they cant get is commitment from them. The rub is that average women who sleep with a bunch of hotter guys now think they are entitled to the higher-tier man. How come he won't commit she cries. They don't want those guys in their lane until maybe much later in life when she feels stuck. Jonty is making some accurate statements.
> 
> The average guy can't go up, can he? Can average Joe get the hotties? Now he can't even stay in his lane. His option is to go down and apparently that's not going so well either. He better have some bucks and a will to take crap in his 30s or game over for him. Many of these guys are very smart and have elected to bypass the ladies who feel stuck and now seek marriage with them. Why? because they finally are understanding the female mating strategy. It's just the way it is.


See, again with guys, you're all about resentment because you can't get women hotter than you. You could get laid if you'd be realistic about your own attractiveness. Trust me you're doing these women a favor by not committing to them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> That sounds good on the surface, but the problem for men is what Manofwar pointed out - women typically don’t date/hook up at their own level.
> 
> An woman can have sex with a much more attractive guy. She may not be able to secure an exclusive relationship with him, but she can hook up with him.
> 
> ...


No, a below-average woman cannot hook up with a real attractive man. Again, you guys are all hung up and bitter because you can't all have the hotties. You could get laid if you'd be realistic about your own attractiveness level.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> See, again with guys, you're all about resentment because you can't get women hotter than you. You could get laid if you'd be realistic about your own attractiveness. Trust me you're doing these women a favor by not committing to them.


No. We're resentful because we get the leftovers in all ways imaginable.

It's why men, in general are checking out, and women are asking where the men to marry are. We are becoming done with the idea of being sacrificial lambs.
The Movement That Has Men Dropping Out of Society in a 'Sexodus' | HowStuffWorks

The number one question that single women are asking, "Where are the men to marry?"
Why Women Are Frustrated and Confused About Men and Dating - PairedLife

Why straight men are boycotting marriage (dailylife.com.au)


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No, a below-average woman cannot hook up with a real attractive man. Again, you guys are all hung up and bitter because you can't all have the hotties. You could get laid if you'd be realistic about your own attractiveness level.


For hookups, yes she can. Unless she has a hump, a man is not as particular when it comes to hooking up.
According to all the studies, 80% of men are no more attractive than the bottom 40% of women.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Doesn't this somewhat contradict your assertion that not all women can get a hook up anytime they want? Couldn't they too just be realistic about their own attractiveness and find someone to hook up with?


If you go to Walmart you'll see that a lot of unattractive people do manage to get together. I thought you guys already understood that women don't care as much about hooking up as men do anyway. I also already made the point that girls have been teased because they're not good-looking their whole life aren't likely to be out sticking their necks out trying to get laid. 

If you really think that unattractive men can't get laid, go to Walmart on the weekend and look at all the couples, many of whom are no one you would touch with it 10 foot pole on online dating. Men who can't get laid either don't have the confidence to try or are grossly overestimating their own attractiveness level and clinging to their self-proclaimed entitlement to someone way more attractive than they are and sitting around making excuses for why they can't get them such as this thread blaming women for it. 

Many men want hookups with women way more attractive than they are and lie and anything else they have to do to get them and pretend to care long enough to get it. I have zero sympathy for that. Those men have trouble coupling up because of their bad attitudes, unrealistic expectations, general smarminess, and they get what they deserve. 

Those kind of men can keep railing against reality their whole lives, or they can take an honest look in the mirror and grow the hell up.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> No. We're resentful because we get the leftovers in all ways imaginable.
> 
> It's why men, in general are checking out, and women are asking where the men to marry are. We are becoming done with the idea of being sacrificial lambs.
> The Movement That Has Men Dropping Out of Society in a 'Sexodus' | HowStuffWorks
> ...


I'm so sorry that you can't deal with reality, Jonty.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If you go to Walmart you'll see that a lot of unattractive people do manage to get together. I thought you guys already understood that women don't care as much about hooking up as men do anyway. I also already made the point that girls have been teased because they're not good-looking their whole life aren't likely to be out sticking their necks out trying to get laid.
> 
> If you really think that unattractive men can't get laid, go to Walmart on the weekend and look at all the couples, many of whom are no one you would touch with it 10 foot pole on online dating. Men who can't get laid either don't have the confidence to try or are grossly overestimating their own attractiveness level and clinging to their self-proclaimed entitlement to someone way more attractive than they are and sitting around making excuses for why they can't get them such as this thread blaming women for it.
> 
> ...


Or we can say, "Screw the women. We don't need them."

Why straight men are boycotting marriage (dailylife.com.au) 

Men live for purpose, not love. 
There is more purposes than leftover and rare and third rate sex.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Wow ... this thread degenerated to yet another battle of the sexless sexes. I was hoping to see why other women chose to stay and see what people thought of that. I really don't want to repeat that situation, and it was hard to revisit. 

Do you red pillers **** all over sexless men too? It seems like some men blame all women for all their woes when they forget they have agency and are making choices, even by inaction. I'm sorry for whatever pain you're dealing with in your personal life, but the bitterness is palpable and very unattractive.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> It's how hypergamy works.
> 
> For 80% of the men, that means leaving the top 60% alone and focusing their opportunities on the bottom 40%.


If your pool is the bottom 40%, then you yourself are in the bottom 40% percent. And I can pretty much guarantee you that at least part of that is your bad attitudes and gross entitlement that makes you unattractive


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> No. We're resentful because we get the leftovers in all ways imaginable.


Do you consider your wife a leftover? 😳


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If your pool is the bottom 40%, then you yourself are in the bottom 40% percent. And I can pretty much guarantee you that at least part of that is your bad attitudes and gross entitlement that makes you unattractive


No. The top 60% of women circulate themselves around the top 20% of men for casual sex. I can post dozens of links backing this up. Women can sleep in an upward direction than a man can. But she has to come downward in order to find a mate to marry.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

minimalME said:


> Do you consider your wife a leftover? 😳


It's a fact of life that married sex is not as adventurous as tinder sex.

And, most times, the married woman does not want to share those experiences with her husband.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

jonty30 said:


> It's a fact of life that married sex is not as adventurous as tinder sex.
> 
> And, most times, the married woman does not want to share those experiences with her husband.


By not answering, you answered. I feel very sad for your wife. You think you're better than her.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> It's a fact of life that married sex is not as adventurous as tinder sex.
> 
> And, most times, the married woman does not want to share those experiences with her husband.


Just because YOUR wife doesn't want to blow you or take it up the ass, but did with previous partners, doesn't mean all women are like that.

I have never had Tinder sex but aside from the newness of each partner, married sex can be just as exciting and adventurous. 

Your experience is not everyone's.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> No. The top 60% of women circulate themselves around the top 20% of men for casual sex. I can post dozens of links backing this up. Women can sleep in an upward direction than a man can. But she has to come downward in order to find a mate to marry.


Dude, surveys made up by millennials and later don't trump a lifetime of real life experience. You will literally stoop to anything to try to validate your own horrible attitude. Why would I respect whatever you dig up on the internet to support that?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

minimalME said:


> By not answering, you answered. I feel very sad for your wife. You think you're better than her.


She'd be wise to run.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

minimalME said:


> By not answering, you answered. I feel very sad for your wife. You think you're better than her.


Not at all. I'm good with my situation, but I'm commenting on what most men will experience. 
Would you like to show you the documentation of where sex goes once a man marries?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> Or we can say, "Screw the women. We don't need them."
> 
> Why straight men are boycotting marriage (dailylife.com.au)
> 
> ...


Please do. You'd be doing all of us a favor.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Dude, surveys made up by millennials and later don't trump a lifetime of real life experience. You will literally stoop to anything to try to validate your own horrible attitude. Why would I respect whatever you dig up on the internet to support that?


There are only about a thousand studies, each showing parallelisms to this phenomena. It's how it works and recognizing it and stating it factually does not make for a horrible attitude.
I'm not one to not be willing to state facts to spare feelings or pride.

Your feelings in light of facts is not my concern.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Please do. You'd be doing all of us a favor.


I have no problem doing that and so are increasing numbers of men choosing to live for themselves then be taken advantage of by women.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> She'd be wise to run.


She's fine.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Please do. You'd be doing all of us a favor.


70% of men are choosing to not marry, because any incentive to marry has been removed from men. It is likely that it will 70% or grow to even greater numbers over time. 

The women ask, "Where are the men?"

Bachelor Nation: 70% of Men Aged 20-34 Are Not Married | CNSNews


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No, a below-average woman cannot hook up with a real attractive man.



I hope you don’t have a straight face while you’re typing that out.

More importantly, I hope you don’t actually think that and aren’t really that naive.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> Wow ... this thread degenerated to yet another battle of the sexless sexes. I was hoping to see why other women chose to stay and see what people thought of that.


Yes, I just read 7 pages of _almost_ nothing...  I don't have an opinion on this. My love life hasn't been a standard one and I had to deal with mental issues all my life, from my parents and my brother to my wife... from cradle to divorce...  But I do get the impression that women are more incline to "forget" sex if the rest of the relationship is fine. Very often, touch and the emotional connection are sufficient to support the couple.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I hope you don’t have a straight face while you’re typing that out.
> 
> More importantly, I hope you don’t actually think that and aren’t really that naive.


She's not taking into account that there is no risk for a male to have sex with an unattractive female, but a females has risks if she sleeps with an unattractive male.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I hope you don’t have a straight face while you’re typing that out.
> 
> More importantly, I hope you don’t actually think that and aren’t really that naive.


I do see a lot of very attractive men with below-average women....all I can think of is, well, she must be very good in bed and a very good cook... only joking...


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I do see a lot of very attractive men with below-average women....all I can think of is, well, she must be very good in bed and a very good cook... only joking...


Shotgun weddings. 

To each his own, when it comes to marriage. However, for a sexual encounter, men can get it up for just about anybody if there are no strings attached.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> No, a below-average woman cannot hook up with a real attractive man.


To get back to this - yes just about any woman can hook up with an attractive man as long as she doesn’t ask anything else of him than his d1ck. 

As long as she agrees to not pursue a relationship and doesn’t boil him bunny or key his car etc or try to get him to meet her friends or family and promises not to tell anyone etc a woman can hook up with an attractive guy.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

minimalME said:


> Do you consider your wife a leftover? 😳


I was wonder the same thing when he mentioned left overs for the married guys.



jonty30 said:


> It's a fact of life that married sex is not as adventurous as tinder sex.
> 
> And, most times, the married woman does not want to share those experiences with her husband.


What do you base this on? I know your experience is your wife gave BJs to past lovers, but not you. That doesn't mean all women are like that.



DownByTheRiver said:


> If you go to Walmart you'll see that a lot of unattractive people do manage to get together. I thought you guys already understood that women don't care as much about hooking up as men do anyway. I also already made the point that girls have been teased because they're not good-looking their whole life aren't likely to be out sticking their necks out trying to get laid.
> 
> If you really think that unattractive men can't get laid, go to Walmart on the weekend and look at all the couples, many of whom are no one you would touch with it 10 foot pole on online dating. Men who can't get laid either don't have the confidence to try or are grossly overestimating their own attractiveness level and clinging to their self-proclaimed entitlement to someone way more attractive than they are and sitting around making excuses for why they can't get them such as this thread blaming women for it.
> 
> ...


I get it that most women aren't just looking for a NSA random hookup. I think the point being made by many, certainly @oldshirt , is that if they wanted to they could. I know they may not have the confidence to put themselves out there, but assuming they did it there would be a man that would gladly help them out. It is exactly what you are saying here. That guy you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole is probably with a woman most men wouldn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole, but sure enough there is a man with her.

We are going in circles with you saying not all women can get a hook up on demand, but men can. Then we have the guys saying the opposite. Honestly I think both sexes could get a hookup if they dropped all standards. However, I think the guy will still have to work harder at it than the woman. I bet a vey homely woman could set up a profile on OLD and say she open for NSA ONSs and she would have multiple options almost immediately, while the same would be far from true for a man. Another example is sex workers. Men pay for sex about 50 times more often than women. That has to be an indicator that women have a much easier time finding a sexual hook up than a man. I don't think it can be disputed that any woman looking for a NSA hookup will have an easier time and many more options than a man looking for a NSA hookup. Looking for some to enter a LTR is a whole different thing.


Also, for the record I want to say I think women are awesome! No hate here. I have a daughter and I want her to have everything she can, professionally, in her romantic relationships and life in general.


----------



## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

minimalME said:


> By not answering, you answered. I feel very sad for your wife. You think you're better than her.


You should feel sorry for his wife and not just this post.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> To get back to this - yes just about any woman can hook up with an attractive man as long as she doesn’t ask anything else of him than his d1ck.
> 
> As long as she agrees to not pursue a relationship and doesn’t boil him bunny or key his car etc or try to get him to meet her friends or family and promises not to tell anyone etc a woman can hook up with an attractive guy.


A young man doesn't have to even think she's attractive to be willing to bang her. Young men get boners from even slight brushes of friction.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> I do see a lot of very attractive men with below-average women....all I can think of is, well, she must be very good in bed and a very good cook... only joking...


A lot??????

Sure it can happens and probably even does now and then. 

I think I saw a couple in Michigan a few years back where the guy was notably better looking. 

I heard there was another sighting of one in Arizona awhile back but I don’t know if that was ever confirmed LOL


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

minimalME said:


> There was a meme that I saw ages ago, that said, 'Men you shouldn't find attractive, but do', and one of them was Alan Rickman. And it was true (for me).
> 
> He was in shape. He had an amazing voice, and I will totally watch a movie solely because he's in it.
> 
> I'm still sad that he died so young. 😢


Alan Rickman definitely has a voice that offsets some shortcomings in looks. It is very smooth and sexy, and I'm a guy, lol.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> To get back to this - yes just about any woman can hook up with an attractive man as long as she doesn’t ask anything else of him than his d1ck.


I don't consider myself particularly attractive, but I'm very shallow and I can't date women I don't find attractive. But then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> A lot??????


In my circle of friends, I know at least 5 couples. And I see a few in the wilderness too. Maybe a lot is an exaggeration, but there are more than you think.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> I don't consider myself particularly attractive, but I'm very shallow and I can't date women I don't find attractive.


I don’t think that’s shallow, that’s normal. I don’t know why you’d want to date someone you don’t find attractive.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, I just read 7 pages of _almost_ nothing...  I don't have an opinion on this. My love life hasn't been a standard one and I had to deal with mental issues all my life, from my parents and my brother to my wife... from cradle to divorce...  But I do get the impression that women are more incline to "forget" sex if the rest of the relationship is fine. Very often, touch and the emotional connection are sufficient to support the couple.


You're not alone there, I started dating at 40 and had to learn about dating the hard way. I can't speak for other women, just myself. I will say though, if the sex sucks, it seems more trouble than it's worth to keep asking about. The minute I asked for something different, the hotdog factory got shut down 😆. I don't know if it was insecurity or what, but I remember it clearly.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> I don’t think that’s shallow, that’s normal. I don’t know why you’d want to date someone you don’t find attractive.


Some would say that picking people with attractiveness as one of the main criteria is shallow. I heard it before.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

In Absentia said:


> Some would say that picking people with attractiveness as one of the main criteria is shallow. I heard it before.


Of course you did. From unattractive people.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Alan Rickman definitely has a voice that offsets some shortcomings in looks. It is very smooth and sexy, and I'm a guy, lol.


I still eye Professor Snapes up and down every time I watch Harry Potter 😆. His voices really was a huge part of his appeal.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> You're not alone there, I started dating at 40 and had to learn about dating the hard way. I can't speak for other women, just myself. I will say though, if the sex sucks, it seems more trouble.e than it's worth to keep asking abput. The minute I asked for something different, the hotdog factory got shut down 😆. I don't know if it was insecurity or what, but I remember it clearly.


I don't think I'm going to date again. I don't think I could cope with other people's weirdness/fixations. I'm too scared. I've been marked for life!


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> To get back to this - yes just about any woman can hook up with an attractive man as long as she doesn’t ask anything else of him than his d1ck.
> 
> As long as she agrees to not pursue a relationship and doesn’t boil him bunny or key his car etc or try to get him to meet her friends or family and promises not to tell anyone etc a woman can hook up with an attractive guy.


If that man is so attractive, then why wouldn't he just be having sex with his hot girlfriends? Is he just greedy?


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Some would say that picking people with attractiveness as one of the main criteria is shallow. I heard it before.


I look at it as cost of entry. Has to be there for me to even consider finding out anything else about the person.

Imagine if you didn’t do this. What are you supposed to be like, you know I really like you but you’re not doing it for me. Maybe if you could put a bag on your head or something?

This actually happened to a woman I know. Guy goes on a date with her and at the end says, “I really like you and you’re really funny but call me when you lose some weight.” No… Why waste people’s time?


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If that man is so attractive, then why wouldn't he just be having sex with his hot girlfriends? Is he just greedy?


It's a slow Wednesday? Closing time at the club?

Men have sex with who they can.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If that man is so attractive, then why wouldn't he just be having sex with his hot girlfriends? Is he just greedy?


If it's a hookup, he's compromising on choice in order to get quick sex.

If he was looking for a relationship, he would not be as compromising on looks.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I was wonder the same thing when he mentioned left overs for the married guys.
> 
> 
> What do you base this on? I know your experience is your wife gave BJs to past lovers, but not you. That doesn't mean all women are like that.
> ...


Men paying for sex is merely because men want sex way more than women do. And it's not because women can just get it whenever they want but because they just inherently aren't obsessed with sex like some men are. They aren't obsessed with their vaginas like some men are with their penises.


----------



## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> This actually happened to a woman I know. Guy goes on a date with her and at the end says, “I really like you and you’re really funny but call me when you lose some weight.” No… Why waste people’s time?


This happened to one of my daughters. Right after sex, he told her she needed to go to the gym. 😳


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men paying for sex is merely because men want sex way more than women do. And it's not because women can just get it whenever they want but because they just inherently aren't obsessed with sex like some men are. They aren't obsessed with their vaginas like some men are with their penises.


Women just have to show up. The reason why less women are willing to show up is because they know the consequences are greater for them, if it turns out badly. 
Men don't have to consider abortion or any diseases that could leave them sterile.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Are we finally getting to "Men and Women are different, and have different reproductive priorities?" on page 8?


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If that man is so attractive, then why wouldn't he just be having sex with his hot girlfriends? Is he just greedy?


He IS having sex with hot chicks as well.

That’s what we’ve been trying to tell you. 

Attractive men get with lots of women. Some are hot, some are not. 

A hot guy won’t commit to a relationship and be sexually exclusive with a less attractive woman, but he will add her into the rotation if he can.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> He IS having sex with hot chicks as well.
> 
> That’s what we’ve been trying to tell you.
> 
> ...


I remember an arguement between a man and wife. The wife needled the husband by telling him about a handsome man that once slept with her. 
The husband replied, "You were simply available. He didn't care about you."


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men paying for sex is merely because men want sex way more than women do. And it's not because women can just get it whenever they want but because they just inherently aren't obsessed with sex like some men are. They aren't obsessed with their vaginas like some men are with their penises.


Men paying for sex is a sign that it's so easy for women to get sex they can even charge for it.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Men paying for sex is a sign that it's so easy for women to get sex they can even charge for it.


Men always pay. I think the escort rate would approximate the same price as a movie and dinner.


----------



## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If that man is so attractive, then why wouldn't he just be having sex with his hot girlfriends? Is he just greedy?


Sometimes just lazy. For example a muscular guy at the gym can talk to the hot girls at the gym and get them. However he has to be on his game because he's competing against other buff guys as well. So if it's a Tuesday night it's easier for him to swipe on the chick with a few extra pounds.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I don't think I'm going to date again. I don't think I could cope with other people's weirdness/fixations. I'm too scared. I've been marked for life!


Never say never! I was terrified too, especially after reading people's experiences on the Singles and red pill threads. Be as picky as you want to be but realistic, the worst someone can say is no. From what I've seen on this thread alone, the only men complaining about women are the ones who are going after sex with low quality women who want what they can't offer.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> Never say never!


well, maybe... lol... I will have to find the courage to show my face in public again...


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

@DownByTheRiver you and Jonty are kind of talking circles around each and neither really connecting the dots with the other. 

Let me see if I can at least get you both onto the same chapter if not same page.

DBTR, you are correct in the sense that if a man can only get with 4s, then that means he is a 4 and that if he shopped in Aisle 4, he would have more success.

In a free-range environment where people interacted face to face and got to know each other organically (as it was done 30+ years ago) that would be largely true.

People, like water, would find their own level. There is probably still some truth to that when people meet in person and get to know each other organically.

HOWEVER, in today’s world with Tinder and Bumble and AFF and a whole alphabet soup of hook up and dating apps and websites- that has been skewed. 

Now a Plane Jane chick can post a little cleavage on an app, and she will literally have guys from other states and even other countries telling her how hot she is and inviting to fly her to them. 

If a hot guy catches her eye and she interacts with him at all, he’ll invite her over for midnight booty call if he has a full tank at that moment and his regular GF or other booty call girls are not available at that time.

So let’s say she is a 5 and this guy in question is an 8. 

She now thinks she’s an 8, or at least a 7, or if he really pours on the charm and flattery, she may even think she has some kind of special power and may think she’s even a 9 in certain catagories.

And this scenario will play out day after day, night after night, where hot guys way out of her traditional dating league as we used to know 30 years ago, are rolling out the red carpet for her to come over and get with them in the middle of the night. 

So what Jonty is trying to say, is now this 5, thinks she has a real shot at these 7s, 8s and 9a and maybe even traveling rock stars in town as long as she shows up, drops her panties and leaves. 

So is she really going to get with a male 5, if she knows she can hook up with 8s and thinks that if she just plays her cards a little better or just loses a few more pounds that she can actually land an 8?? 

That’s what Jonty is trying to say when you tell him he just needs to stay in his league.

He league is no longer a functional league because women of his actual league are chasing guys that are out of their league and are just hooking up with them. 

A male 8 will screw a female 5 or 6 if he’s horny and bored and it won’t cost him anything and he doesn’t have to put forth any effort.

Yes he is also screwing a variety of 7s and 8s and even some 9s and maybe even an occasional 10 if his game is on point and the 10 is ovulating and she feels snubbed by her pro athlete boyfriend or millionaire sugar daddy.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Sometimes just lazy. For example a muscular guy at the gym can talk to the hot girls at the gym and get them. However he has to be on his game because he's competing against other buff guys as well. So if it's a Tuesday night it's easier for him to swipe on the chick with a few extra pounds.


My BIL, who I really don't care for one bit and refuse to talk to, is reasonably attractive, as best as I can tell. He's in good shape, average height, hits the gym regularly, good job, drives a corvette, etc. Yet, he only seems to go for women that I would consider unattractive and overweight or obese. I'm positive he could get a better looking woman if he chose to make an effort, but when it comes to women he is lazy and looking for easy. I suppose he could really like that type, but I think it is solely because they are plentiful and easy for him to get. As best as I can tell he is one of those that would happily help out any woman looking for a hookup. He has 4, possibly 5 kids (more on that later) from all different women and all the same "type". The possible 5th kid is a married woman that cheated on her husband with him. He found out about 10 years after the fact that the kid may be his, but no paternity test was done. This woman was not attractive at all in my opinion. She was probably 5'2" and had to be pushing 300lbs. Her husband by my estimation isn't a bad looking guy. So this hideous woman was able to score two average to above average men at once. BTW, my BIL has been married twice, currently divorced, and had multiple LTR live in girlfriends. He cheated on every single one of them. He got divorced the last time because he slept with his wife's sister, both were obese and quite homely in my opinion. 

Bringing this back to the topic of the post, I don't know if her husband wasn't giving her sex and that was why she slept with my BIL or she just wanted something different. I do know that if she was able to find someone ready, willing and able to give her what she needs I can't imagine how unattractive a woman would need to be in order for her not to be able to get a hookup. I think most if not all women have the ability to get sex if they want it. Which means they are staying in a sexless marriage because sex isn't their top priority. What other explanation could there be?


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> He IS having sex with hot chicks as well.
> 
> That’s what we’ve been trying to tell you.
> 
> ...


Now you're saying "less attractive." That's still attractive.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> Men paying for sex is a sign that it's so easy for women to get sex they can even charge for it.


Do you seriously think sex workers ENJOY what they're doing? Wow, you really believe their facade. Amazing.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Do you seriously think sex workers ENJOY what they're doing? Wow, you really believe their facade. Amazing.


He didn’t say anything about enjoyment.

He said they can charge for it. 

And the fact there are millions of sex workers throughout every corner of the planet including places where the jons can be castrated and the women set on fire, proves that to be true.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> @DownByTheRiver you and Jonty are kind of talking circles around each and neither really connecting the dots with the other.
> 
> Let me see if I can at least get you both onto the same chapter if not same page.
> 
> ...


If the girl has cleavage, then that's all some guys care about. She's not universally unattractive. A 5 or 6 isn't unattractive, just average. You really don't have to convince me _some _guys will put their penis in whatever mouth will have them. But that's some guys. That's YOU. All guys are not turned on by anything that breathes and walks.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Do you seriously think sex workers ENJOY what they're doing? Wow, you really believe their facade. Amazing.


Holy leaps, batman! I don't care whether they enjoy it or not. That's not the point. The point is that it's so easy for a woman to get, they can just straight up ask for money. That's a pretty low bar to get over for any woman who wants it.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> All guys are not turned on by anything that breathes and walks.


At some point, most men go through a stage where this is their truth. There are a few disqualifying conditions, like obesity or true unattractiveness that will turn them away, but I think you underestimate the average young man's avarice.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Cletus said:


> At some point, most men go through a stage where this is their truth. There are a few disqualifying conditions, like obesity or true unattractiveness that will turn them away, but I think you underestimate the average young man's avarice.


In my younger days, my navy buddies would sometime play a game when out barhopping. Everyone throws in a $20, and the guy who hooked up with the ugliest girl that night won the pot. Never underestimate a young man's avarice indeed.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Holy leaps, batman! I don't care whether they enjoy it or not. That's not the point. The point is that it's so easy for a woman to get, they can just straight up ask for money. That's a pretty low bar to get over for any woman who wants it.


It is simple economics, supply and demand.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> All guys are not turned on by anything that breathes and walks.


We know who is though... I don't know many guys who would bang an ugly or obese woman, even in their younger days.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> In my younger days, my navy buddies would sometime play a game when out barhopping. Everyone throws in a $20, and the guy who hooked up with the ugliest girl that night won the pot. Never underestimate a young man's avarice indeed.


And I suppose you think that means the young men belonged on a higher level than the woman. That's a bunch of loser guys trying to make themselves not look pathetic for getting sex on the level they belong.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And I suppose you think that means the young men belonged on a higher level than the woman. That's a bunch of loser guys trying to make themselves not look pathetic for getting sex on the level they belong.


I know the caliber of girl they hooked up with on normal nights and the caliber of girls they married. Yes, they were slumming.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> I know the caliber of girl they hooked up with on normal nights and the caliber of girls they married. Yes, they were slumming.


That's because they belong in the slums.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> That's because they belong in the slums.


I find it so interesting that you refuse to believe what men tell you about men.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If the girl has cleavage, then that's all some guys care about. She's not universally unattractive. A 5 or 6 isn't unattractive, just average. You really don't have to convince me _some _guys will put their penis in whatever mouth will have them. But that's some guys. That's YOU. All guys are not turned on by anything that breathes and walks.


I’m sure some aspects of these discussions can be disheartening to women. 

I’m sure some of this can be uncomfortable and even upsetting to hear.

Just as it’s uncomfortable for us guys to hear women talk about how little they think of most of us. 

But as an open forum on relationships and dating, marriage, sexuality etc etc we can either discuss comforting lies or uncomfortable truths. 

But you also need keep in mind that the vast vast vast majority of men have great honor and reverence for their wives. 

Most men feel their wives are way above them and treat them well. 

A typical man may have sex with any number of women over the course of his life, but the vast majority will only marry and have a home and family with only one or two over the course of 80some years.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> The minute I asked for something different, the hotdog factory got shut down 😆. I don't know if it was insecurity or what, but I remember it clearly.


Lolol!!!! This is AWESOME!!!


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DownButNotOut said:


> I find it so interesting that you refuse to believe what men tell you about men.


I find it incredible that no matter how many times on this thread I have told you you don't have to convince me that some men will put their penis in anything including holes in the bathroom wall and animals, that you feel you still need to further convince me of it and continue to try to apply it to all men universally in order to make those smarmy guys seem normal.


----------



## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I find it incredible that no matter how many times on this thread I have told you you don't have to convince me that some men will put their penis in anything including holes in the bathroom wall and animals, that you feel you still need to further convince me of it and continue to try to apply it to all men universally in order to make those smarmy guys seem normal.


What you don't seem to get is that "high value" men are just as capable of it as any other man. You can tell yourself that "good" men don't do it. But it is simply not true. What you call "some" men is a far larger percentage than you seem to think it is.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> you feel you still need to further convince me of it and continue to try to apply it to all men universally in order to make those smarmy guys seem normal.


Let me put it this way - It’s not that smarmyness is the norm.

But normal guys can be a bit smarmy at times.

Just like normal women can be catty, vindictive, manipulative etc at times.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well I'm usually the one who gets accused of demonizing men on this forum, but if you insist they're all bad, then I'll pass the crown.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well I'm usually the one who gets accused of demonizing men on this forum, but if you insist they're all bad, then I'll pass the crown.


I’m not necessarily saying either men or women are bad. 

I’m saying none of us are saints and everyone can do some things that don’t get the Vatican’s stamp of approval at times. 

Real life isn’t a fairy tale or Disney movie for either gender.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Chaotic said:


> A lot of women aren't interested in sex without some kind of emotional connection, and you can't set that up in 20 minutes on tinder.


This exactly. 

I've dated and have friends in a wide age range and hear a theme too often to not be true At a certain age, they find most attention comes from guys who want to get laid. Single guys who want a relationship and have something to offer are hard to find.

As a result, they focus on other aspects of their lives and might just give up on romance. As far as just sex, it's not a plus if you don't like it.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not necessarily saying either men or women are bad.
> 
> I’m saying none of us are saints and everyone can do some things that don’t get the Vatican’s stamp of approval at times.
> 
> Real life isn’t a fairy tale or Disney movie for either gender.





DTO said:


> This exactly.
> 
> I've dated and have friends in a wide age range and hear a theme too often to not be true At a certain age, they find most attention comes from guys who want to get laid. Single guys who want a relationship and have something to offer are hard to find.
> 
> As a result, they focus on other aspects of their lives and might just give up on romance. As far as just sex, it's not a plus if you don't like it.


I agree with most of this. About sex, I would say most women like it if they're not asked to constantly service the guy doing things that aren't enjoyable to them. I think one reason there seems to be more dissatisfaction these days in that arena is guys watched too much internet porn and started having unreasonable demands. Once it becomes a chore, some women are going to eventually opt out. If they wanted to be sex workers, they'd already have gone that route. Once women find out their man's number one priority is his penis, they start looking for someone less self-involved or just give up on men entirely. That's just not at all what women seek.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

I’m getting a sense there’s a big MGTOW/incel crowd on here. There’s a lot of talk about Chads and how it was better when women couldn’t support themselves and only married for money because then they could get hotter girls, men are talking about women like they are livestock, not people. I thought this was a marriage forum where people talk about real relationships. If this is some forum for incels who are going to refer to women as [email protected]@T and talk about sexual redistribution then this isn’t the right place for me.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I’m getting a sense there’s a big MGTOW/incel crowd on here. There’s a lot of talk about Chads and how it was better when women couldn’t support themselves and only married for money because then they could get hotter girls, men are talking about women like they are livestock, not people. I thought this was a marriage forum where people talk about real relationships. If this is some forum for incels who are going to refer to women as [email protected]@T and talk about sexual redistribution then this isn’t the right place for me.


When women were more dependent upon me, it allowed a more even distribution of women for the men. That means otherwise undesirable men could still have wives. With the advent of greater economic freedom for women, it allowed women their natural tendencies of wanting to sleep with the best men they could. This resulted in a more uneven distribution of sexual partners, leaving more men being left out. 

Consequently, 70% of men, between the ages of 25 and over, are foregoing marriage altogether, which is resulting in more women not marrying or having to share the more desireable men amongst themselves.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I’m getting a sense there’s a big MGTOW/incel crowd on here. There’s a lot of talk about Chads and how it was better when women couldn’t support themselves and only married for money because then they could get hotter girls, men are talking about women like they are livestock, not people. I thought this was a marriage forum where people talk about real relationships. If this is some forum for incels who are going to refer to women as [email protected]@T and talk about sexual redistribution then this isn’t the right place for me.


There are some married incels,but they're more argumentative than rapey. You should be fine, just use your ignore feature when needed. 

Before you boyos get your asses chapped. Incel = involuntary celibacy. I'm being factual, not insulting.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> There are some married incels,but they're more argumentative than rapey. You should be fine, just use your ignore feature when needed.
> 
> Before you boyos get your asses chapped. Incel = involuntary celibacy. I'm being factual, not insulting.


Thanks. I’m pretty generous with “ignore”. I can’t listen to men talk about women like they’re mindless, interchangeable slaves that deserve to tortured, humiliated and beaten.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> When women were more dependent upon me, it allowed a more even distribution of women for the men. That means otherwise undesirable men could still have wives. With the advent of greater economic freedom for women, it allowed women their natural tendencies of wanting to sleep with the best men they could. This resulted in a more uneven distribution of sexual partners, leaving more men being left out.
> 
> Consequently, 70% of men, between the ages of 25 and over, are foregoing marriage altogether, which is resulting in more women not marrying or having to share the more desireable men amongst themselves.


Noted. Ignore. I don’t want to hear your child rape and torture fantasies becuase you’re mad it’s illegal to kill women.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Noted. Ignore.


I don't care if you ignore me. It doesn't change the truth of the matter. 
Women have a tendency to not like the truth about themselves.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Noted. Ignore. I don’t want to hear your child rape and torture fantasies becuase you’re mad it’s illegal to kill women.


I don't have fantasies of rape or child torture. Are you projecting your desires unto me?
Nobody randomly brings up dark stuff like that without there being a reason for it.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I’m getting a sense there’s a big MGTOW/incel crowd on here. There’s a lot of talk about Chads and how it was better when women couldn’t support themselves and only married for money because then they could get hotter girls, men are talking about women like they are livestock, not people. I thought this was a marriage forum where people talk about real relationships. If this is some forum for incels who are going to refer to women as [email protected]@T and talk about sexual redistribution then this isn’t the right place for me.


There are a few but honestly, just put them on ignore. Best thing for everyone, IMO. Any new poster who has a very high post count and posts garbage is suspect anyway and not worth your time.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

bobert said:


> There are a few but honestly, just put them on ignore. Best thing for everyone, IMO. Any new poster who has a very high post count and posts garbage is suspect anyway and not worth your time.


Thanks. I appreciate it.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

bobert said:


> There are a few but honestly, just put them on ignore. Best thing for everyone, IMO. Any new poster who has a very high post count and posts garbage is suspect anyway and not worth your time.


I have a lot of freetime.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

It shows how far apart we still are.




DownByTheRiver said:


> No, a below-average woman cannot hook up with a real attractive man. Again, you guys are all hung up and bitter because you can't all have the hotties. You could get laid if you'd be realistic about your own attractiveness level.


Old world thinking. Simply not accurate. We know better today. Data from OLD sites like Tinder and OK cupid support the claim women are hooking up with higher-tier men regularly. I don't blame these girls. Should they go on there and say "today I want a bottom 20% guy". Come on!! It's what their options allow. Dating sites won't even put this data out anymore since it's bad for business. They run a business model based on hope and the bottom 70/80 % generate nice monthly revenue on their revolving payment plans.



DownByTheRiver said:


> Many men want hookups with women way more attractive than they are and lie and anything else they have to do to get them and pretend to care long enough to get it. I have zero sympathy for that.* Those men have trouble coupling up because of their bad attitudes, unrealistic expectations,* *general smarminess, and they get what they deserve.*


This is an old mass media stereotype of men in general. Very similar to the standard stereotype that guys are playboys juggling numerous women when in fact it's usually the opposite. Except the ladies want to keep this on the hush. A woman loves a man who knows how to keep his mouth shut.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> I have a lot of freetime.


Yup, yet you claim that when you get home you focus on your wife and stay off the internet? 


jonty30 said:


> It's a great job. I can't state what the job is, but it allows me to focus on my home life when I get home without being tempted to be on the internet.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

manowar said:


> It shows how far apart we still are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well and what Jordan Peterson’s little acolytes don’t know is that it isn’t the fault of the “Chad” that they’re alone. Women DO have a choice. They can support themselves. So why on earth would a woman spend her life as an abused and tortured slave with someone who doesn’t even believe she has a brain? Those men don’t think women feel pain “like people do.” They believe that as they come of age, society should “give them a young, healthy, fit woman” to clean, cook and provide them with sex on demand. No interest at all in how the woman feels or IF she feels. That one I just put on ignore was saying he should have “access” to women and women need their human rights stripped away so he can “have access.” He fees entitled to a woman’s body. Doesn’t see her as a person, has no interest in who she is and would just as soon cut out her tongue so she can’t talk. And it never occurs to him that perhaps women would rather be alone than with someone who treats them like that. Typical beta. Nothing is ever their fault and there is no reason for them to ever make an effort. Those men have always existed and there was, in fact, NEVER a time in America when men like that were “given” a woman. They should all move to Pakistan where they will fit in.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

bobert said:


> Yup, yet you claim that when you get home you focus on your wife and stay off the internet?


I do just that, but I live in a small apartment.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well and what Jordan Peterson’s little acolytes don’t know is that it isn’t the fault of the “Chad” that they’re alone. Women DO have a choice. They can support themselves. So why on earth would a woman spend her life as an abused and tortured slave with someone who doesn’t even believe she has a brain? Those men don’t think women feel pain “like people do.” They believe that as they come of age, society should “give them a young, healthy, fit woman” to clean, cook and provide them with sex on demand. No interest at all in how the woman feels or IF she feels. That one I just put on ignore was saying he should have “access” to women and women need their human rights stripped away so he can “have access.” He fees entitled to a woman’s body. Doesn’t see her as a person, has no interest in who she is and would just as soon cut out her tongue so she can’t talk. And it never occurs to him that perhaps women would rather be alone than with someone who treats them like that. Typical beta. Nothing is ever their fault and there is no reason for them to ever make an effort. Those men have always existed and there was, in fact, NEVER a time in America when men like that were “given” a woman. They should all move to Pakistan where they will fit in.


And the result is 70% men are now avoiding marriage, because it's a waste of their time. 

The women can circulate around with whomever they want. But it means they will perpetually share men.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> I do just that, but I live in a small apartment.


That doesn't make any sense. You either stay off the internet or you don't, and clearly, you don't.


----------



## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> *Men paying for sex is merely because men want sex way more than women do*. And it's not because women can just get it whenever they want but because they just inherently aren't obsessed with sex like some men are. They aren't obsessed with their vaginas like some men are with their penises.


That may be but here's the real reason --- Men pay for sex because they don't want the hassle of dealing with woman. Jumping thru her hoops, the protocol, and who knows what will happen. It's chancy if he wants sex. A woman can get sex pretty much when she wants but not with whom she wants. Escorts simply level the playing field where a guy can get guaranteed sex. 

Ive gone on record that men in their 20s should not leave their sex lives up to the vagaries of 20 s/t women. These guys doing poorly on OLD, etc... should use escorts monthly imo. They will feel better, have great sex on occasion, increase their skills, confidence, and not be so fking thirsty.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> And it never occurs to him that perhaps women would rather be alone than with someone who treats them like that.



Hey you won't get any argument from me. that's no way to treat your woman. maybe the girl shouldn't have selected a Cro-Magnon


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

bobert said:


> That doesn't make any sense. You either stay off the internet or you don't, and clearly, you don't.


I'm always connected, true. I don't close my connection just because I'm doing other things.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> I'm always connected, true. I don't close my connection just because I'm doing other things.


You cannot possibly give your wife your full attention when you are also on your phone. So you don't do that, and you don't stay off the internet, what else have you lied about here?


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

bobert said:


> You cannot possibly give your wife your full attention when you are also on your phone. So you don't do that, and you don't stay off the internet, what else have you lied about here?


I do too. I'm usually bouncing back and forth.


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

jonty30 said:


> I do too. I'm usually bouncing back and forth.


Sure


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

manowar said:


> It shows how far apart we still are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Certainly not all women go on to hookup sites to begin with, so whatever their statistics are is not a sampling of all women.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Certainly not all women go on to hookup sites to begin with, so whatever their statistics are is not a sampling of all women.


I think it's a good sampling of the tendencies between the genders. No poll covers everybody, but the more consistent the results, the more likely that it is generally true.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> When women were more dependent upon me, it allowed a more even distribution of women for the men. That means otherwise undesirable men could still have wives. With the advent of greater economic freedom for women, it allowed women their natural tendencies of wanting to sleep with the best men they could. This resulted in a more uneven distribution of sexual partners, leaving more men being left out.
> 
> Consequently, 70% of men, between the ages of 25 and over, are foregoing marriage altogether, which is resulting in more women not marrying or having to share the more desireable men amongst themselves.


So, isn't this just natural selection at work? The woman can procreate from the better part of the gene pool?


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So, isn't this just natural selection at work? The woman can procreate from the better part of the gene pool?


Basically. The way I look at it is that we were created to have impulses to want the best progeny possible. That means, for women, they have two competing desire systems. The most healthy children they can have and the resources needed to ensure their survival so they can have progeny of their own eventually. That's why you see the women here, who don't really think about what they are saying when they say that there is tinder sex and there is relationship sex. That's how I interpret that statement, their competing desire systems are at work.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

This thread reads weird because apparently I already have one or more of the people on ignore. 🤣


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> This thread reads weird because apparently I already have one or more of the people on ignore. 🤣


I suppose you mean me, but that's ok. I'm not concerned with those who have weak mindset and constitutions and are easily offended.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I do too. I'm usually bouncing back and forth.


Jonty ol sport, those two statements are incongruent.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So, isn't this just natural selection at work? The woman can procreate from the better part of the gene pool?


They’re blaming women when they are the problem. They believe they are entitled to no-strings sex with any woman they see. They want to be abusive and cruel to rocket scientist supermodels. Even when women weren’t allowed to work and were forced to marry to survive, those women would marry a nice man who loved them and treated them well, not some wimpy beta who would beat them, cheat on them and treat them like slaves.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> This thread reads weird because apparently I already have one or more of the people on ignore. 🤣


I've had that happen on other threads. Sometimes the forum will generate a message asking me if I want to view the posts of someone I had on ignore. I usually can't resist and click yes!


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I've had that happen on other threads. Sometimes the forum will generate a message asking me if I want to view the posts of someone I had on ignore. I usually can't resist and click yes!


I did that yesterday. I blocked this hateful MGTOW incel who was posting about how horrible it is that women are allowed to work. He responded to some other posts and curiosity got the better of me. What he posted was of course vile and psychotic so I learned my lesson! 😉


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> They’re blaming women when they are the problem. They believe they are entitled to no-strings sex with any woman they see. They want to be abusive and cruel to rocket scientist supermodels. Even when women weren’t allowed to work and were forced to marry to survive, those women would marry a nice man who loved them and treated them well, not some wimpy beta who would beat them, cheat on them and treat them like slaves.


Nobody is blaming women for their inborn desires.


----------



## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I did that yesterday. I blocked this hateful MGTOW incel who was posting about how horrible it is that women are allowed to work. He responded to some other posts and curiosity got the better of me. What he posted was of course vile and psychotic so I learned my lesson! 😉


There is nothing psychotic about the truth.

All my comments are based on what is known about female and male sexuality in science.
There is no negativity, from me anyway, in what I'm saying.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Men paying for sex is merely because men want sex way more than women do. And it's not because women can just get it whenever they want but because they just inherently aren't obsessed with sex like some men are. They aren't obsessed with their vaginas like some men are with their penises.


Some women are.

Actually I've never paid for sex, overly concerned with morality and STDs I suppose.

Yes, someone will say if you ever wined and dined a woman then you did pay for it. Obviously two different things.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Livvie said:


> I've had that happen on other threads. Sometimes the forum will generate a message asking me if I want to view the posts of someone I had on ignore. I usually can't resist and click yes!


I have never done that. Blocked = dead to me.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> I have never done that. Blocked = dead to me.


Smart. I'm going to follow your example. There's a reason I blocked them, I need to keep it there. I'm brand new, joined yesterday, and this is such a fun, kind group except for the incel weirdos.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

CountryMike said:


> Some women are.
> 
> Actually I've never paid for sex, overly concerned with morality and STDs I suppose.
> 
> Yes, someone will say if you ever wined and dined a woman then you did pay for it. Obviously two different things.


Plenty of dating women have cooked and baked cookies or something like that for men, as well as shared the dinner bill. There's a valid reason why women need to know if men are solvent if they are looking for a husband or father for their children, and that is because well they are nursing the baby, for at least that amount of time, the man is going to have to be able to keep the lights on. 

Of course the other reason is that women have always made less money than men. 

Certainly there are gold diggers, but those are pretty easy to spot and I feel like the men who get with them do it because they're willing to pay for sex with someone more attractive than they are.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> I think it's a good sampling of the tendencies between the genders. No poll covers everybody, but the more consistent the results, the more likely that it is generally true.


I beg to disagree. People who go on a site like tinder to take one look at a person and then go hookup are not a sampling of the general population because most people don't do that.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ccpowerslave said:


> I have never done that. Blocked = dead to me.


Same with me. The only time it bothers me is when I go on the private member's section that talks about who got banned and I can't figure out who got banned because I can't see a comment that mentioned someone to ask if they were banned


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Plenty of dating women have cooked and baked cookies or something like that for men, as well as shared the dinner bill. There's a valid reason why women need to know if men are solvent if they are looking for a husband or father for their children, and that is because well they are nursing the baby, for at least that amount of time, the man is going to have to be able to keep the lights on.
> 
> Of course the other reason is that women have always made less money than men.
> 
> Certainly there are gold diggers, but those are pretty easy to spot and I feel like the men who get with them do it because they're willing to pay for sex with someone more attractive than they are.


I myself have never let a date pay for an evenings cost. Just old fashioned i suppose. 

And I wanted to make known right up front I'm financially solid and who pays for what trinkets or meal will never be a trivial problem she'll have to wonder about..


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> There is nothing psychotic about the truth.
> 
> All my comments are based on what is known about female and male sexuality in science.
> There is no negativity, from me anyway, in what I'm saying.


If you don't know by now that you can find absolutely anything you want to find on the internet to validate your own (wrong) opinions, then no one can help you.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There's a valid reason why women need to know if men are solvent if they are looking for a husband or father for their children
> 
> Of course the other reason is that women have always made less money than men.


The valid reason isn't always and really shouldn't be that they need money. It should be that he's a good man, a stable adult who will make a good husband and father, be faithful and honest and responsible. What man would want to be with a woman who just needed someone to pay her bills? What a sad and empty marriage that would be.

Oh, and not all women can't make a living. This fantasy that women can't be professionally successful is false. Women who make less do so because of choices we make, not because we're too dumb and helpless to hold down a job.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

CountryMike said:


> I myself have never let a date pay for an evenings cost. Just old fashioned i suppose.
> 
> And I wanted to make known right up front I'm financially solid and who pays for what trinkets or meal will never be a trivial problem she'll have to wonder about..


There's been a lot of change and a lot of it depends on locale and tradition. I think both men and women have a right to find out what the person is like financially, whether they are needy or solvent or hard-working or barely working if they're looking for an actual mate. When people are young and doing the most dating, they are usually both broke, and going out and spending a lot of money on big dates is foolish. But not everyone realizes that. 

When I first moved to Dallas in my mid-twenties, I took a huge cut in pay and was making minimum wage and starting all over again. I couldn't afford to take myself out to eat at all. But most of the guys I was meeting were also broke. They would ask me to lunch and I would tell them I can't afford it and asked if they wanted to come over for a bologna sandwich or beans or something because I lived very close by. Sometimes a few of them would take me to a restaurant and pool together to pay my bill which was so sweet and made me feel like I had a family in the new town. And once in a while they would come over for sandwiches. 

I never had kids, and in my entire lifetime, no man has ever paid any part of the rent or mortgage or bills for me. I always took care of my own bills. 

That said, I didn't mind broke guys at all, but I can't suffer a real cheapskate who doesn't have any reason to be that way, because I always like to do nice things and go nice places when possible. I certainly paid for most of that myself over my lifetime and in fact did most of it by myself over my lifetime.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The valid reason isn't always and really shouldn't be that they need money. It should be that he's a good man, a stable adult who will make a good husband and father, be faithful and honest and responsible. What man would want to be with a woman who just needed someone to pay her bills? What a sad and empty marriage that would be.
> 
> Oh, and not all women can't make a living. This fantasy that women can't be professionally successful is false. Women who make less do so because of choices we make, not because we're too dumb and helpless to hold down a job.


I didn't say they couldn't be professionally successful but they always got paid 1/3 less than men and that makes a huge difference in what you can afford. I can personally attest to that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I didn't say they couldn't be professionally successful but they always got paid 1/3 less than men and that makes a huge difference in what you can afford. I can personally attest to that.


That isn't my experience, but everyone has different experiences in life I guess. The "gender pay gap" is not a true statistic because you're not comparing apples to apples. That 77% stat comes from comparing all women, working or not, to all men. So you're including housewives with no income in the women column and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in the men column. The truth is, if a woman makes all the same career choices a man makes, she usually makes the same money the man makes. I can personally attest to that. I was 36 when I had my son, so I'd been working for a decade and was pretty much on par with the men with my same job. I pulled back when my priorities changed, so those guys have advanced and been promoted and I haven't. That is because they're willing to commit more time than I am because I made a choice to put my son first. (It is NOT a sacrifice, it's a choice. He's so much more important to me than my career) The reason there are fewer female CEOs isn't because of sexism, it's because getting to that career level requires a time commitment that would make you neglect your kids (if you have them). I mean, not everyone is the same, some people have more education, and sometimes the stars align for someone in a way they don't for others. (Nepotism is a thing, too, I have a friend who is a CFO because her Dad's college roommate owns the company, she's good at her job but got it with way less experience than normal). But in truth, while sure, sexism is a thing, it's not as bad as the media keeps telling us it is. I mean, I'm in Oil & Gas. Talk about good ol' boys. I've never had a single executive question my abilities because I'm a woman, it's only the lower level managers and beta males who do that.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That isn't my experience, but everyone has different experiences in life I guess. The "gender pay gap" is not a true statistic because you're not comparing apples to apples. That 77% stat comes from comparing all women, working or not, to all men. So you're including housewives with no income in the women column and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in the men column. The truth is, if a woman makes all the same career choices a man makes, she usually makes the same money the man makes. I can personally attest to that. I was 36 when I had my son, so I'd been working for a decade and was pretty much on par with the men with my same job. I pulled back when my priorities changed, so those guys have advanced and been promoted and I haven't. That is because they're willing to commit more time than I am because I made a choice to put my son first. (It is NOT a sacrifice, it's a choice. He's so much more important to me than my career) The reason there are fewer female CEOs isn't because of sexism, it's because getting to that career level requires a time commitment that would make you neglect your kids (if you have them). I mean, not everyone is the same, some people have more education, and sometimes the stars align for someone in a way they don't for others. (Nepotism is a thing, too, I have a friend who is a CFO because her Dad's college roommate owns the company, she's good at her job but got it with way less experience than normal). But in truth, while sure, sexism is a thing, it's not as bad as the media keeps telling us it is. I mean, I'm in Oil & Gas. Talk about good ol' boys. I've never had a single executive question my abilities because I'm a woman, it's only the lower level managers and beta males who do that.


I couldn't agree more with you career choices comment. I would say at least from the 90s on the pay gap is overblown and details about why some women make less get overlooked. They don't fit the narrative. In my professional experience I've never seen this wage gap. I work for a company with about $1B in annual revenue and our CEO is a woman. Naturally she makes more than all of us, but I also know she is on par with men in similar positions in our industry. She is married, but no kids. She chose career first and she exceled at it. I am in a fairly high level position with a lot of people in the organization that reports to me. I am fully aware of what everyone is being paid and I know there is not a gender pay gap in my organization and I'm sure that is true across the company. Same goes for my wife. Since she works in a unionized school gender has no bearing on your compensation, it can't. I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist and in some cases there are women being under paid, but my personal experience says that women can and do have equality in pay.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> The valid reason isn't always and really shouldn't be that they need money. It should be that he's a good man, a stable adult who will make a good husband and father, be faithful and honest and responsible. What man would want to be with a woman who just needed someone to pay her bills? What a sad and empty marriage that would be.
> 
> Oh, and not all women can't make a living. This fantasy that women can't be professionally successful is false. Women who make less do so because of choices we make, not because we're too dumb and helpless to hold down a job.


We've had this discussion here a lot.

Men openly admit they don't care about a potential partner's financial picture. They mostly care if she's hot or not.

However, they will complain to no end if a long marriage (to a low or NO earner) ends and they have to pay spousal support!!!

Solution: don't marry a woman who can't support herself or who makes substantially less than you do. If you do, don't complain about paying support in the event the marriage ends. There are no guarantees a marriage will last forever. 

Choosing hot over self sufficiency can have consequences.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Livvie said:


> We've had this discussion here a lot.
> 
> Men openly admit they don't care about a potential partner's financial picture. They mostly care if she's hot or not.
> 
> ...


I can say that I'm duty bound to do what I can to ensure she is provided for.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I can say that I'm duty bound to do what I can to ensure she is provided for.


What about if she's slept with several other men, then advises you she wants a divorce?

To me she's made her choice. Nuclear reaction by me. Let her reap the consequences. Game over. I'd spend all I have, substantial, to get custody of my kids.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> What about if she's slept with several other men, then advises you she wants a divorce?
> 
> To me she's made her choice. Nuclear reaction by me. Let her reap the consequences. Game over. I'd spend all I have, substantial, to get custody of my kids.


As long as she's committed to the marriage, I'm fine with making sure she is provided for. I work sometimes 84 hours/week to make that happen.
If she steps out, she's ended the marriage and I'm fine with her going her way. 
I'm with you on that.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I couldn't agree more with you career choices comment. I would say at least from the 90s on the pay gap is overblown and details about why some women make less get overlooked. They don't fit the narrative. In my professional experience I've never seen this wage gap. I work for a company with about $1B in annual revenue and our CEO is a woman. Naturally she makes more than all of us, but I also know she is on par with men in similar positions in our industry. She is married, but no kids. She chose career first and she exceled at it. I am in a fairly high level position with a lot of people in the organization that reports to me. I am fully aware of what everyone is being paid and I know there is not a gender pay gap in my organization and I'm sure that is true across the company. Same goes for my wife. Since she works in a unionized school gender has no bearing on your compensation, it can't. I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist and in some cases there are women being under paid, but my personal experience says that women can and do have equality in pay.


It's very frustrating for those of us who are real feminists (as opposed to the third-wave, victimhood-loving loonies running the movement today) when we've really achieved so very, very much to hear all that progress scoffed off. It's especially upsetting when people compare how women are treated here in the US with places like Pakistan, Afghanistan... that is so insulting to those poor women who are TRULY oppressed. Sure, there are jerks here and there but they are the exception and not the rule. Alpha men are fine with (and usually love) smart, strong women. But as we all know, victimhood is big business these days.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Livvie said:


> We've had this discussion here a lot.
> 
> Men openly admit they don't care about a potential partner's financial picture. They mostly care if she's hot or not.
> 
> ...


See, I'm feeling no sympathy for those men. They complain "she used me for money!" Well, you used her for her looks, you don't care about her or even see her as a person. Men who don't care about a woman's personality, her intelligence, her sense of humor, her work ethic... you're basically paying her to be a housekeeper and sex doll, you don't care if she lives or dies, she could be replaced and you'd barely notice. If you don't love and respect her, why on earth would she love and respect you? You get what you give in this life. Sure, sometimes good people get a bad deal, and that is awful and I hate when that happens. But if all you're looking for is someone who is hot, you need to expect her feelings for you to be as shallow as yours are for her.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> What about if she's slept with several other men, then advises you she wants a divorce?
> 
> To me she's made her choice. Nuclear reaction by me. Let her reap the consequences. Game over. I'd spend all I have, substantial, to get custody of my kids.


That is one thing I would NEVER tolerate. As much as I love my husband, if he cheated, I am gone. I won't keep him from his son, of course, he loves him and is a good father. But I'm not going to stay with someone who no longer loves me just so I'm not alone, and I certainly am not going to beg someone to stay with me. Besides, if someone cheats and you don't leave, you've given them permission to cheat by showing them you won't do anything if they do. No one deserves to be someone's consolation prize. If being faithful to you is too much to ask, she doesn't see how valuable you are and is therefore not worth your time. Scorched earth, baby. Enjoy the wasteland of your own making. 💥


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Livvie said:


> We've had this discussion here a lot.
> 
> Men openly admit they don't care about a potential partner's financial picture. They mostly care if she's hot or not.
> 
> ...


We were both broke when we got married. Who isn't at 18 & 21? At the time she didn't make much, but more than me. 30+ years later I literally make 10x what she does, but I owe that in large part to her and the freedom to pursue my career knowing the house and kids were all taken care of. As far as I'm concerned she's earned it to and would be entitled to half of it. That said I don't see our marriage ending any time soon. 



CountryMike said:


> What about if she's slept with several other men, then advises you she wants a divorce?
> 
> To me she's made her choice. Nuclear reaction by me. Let her reap the consequences. Game over. I'd spend all I have, substantial, to get custody of my kids.


Sexual contact with another man would make me go nuclear too and my wife knows it. She knows all of my hard boundaries and what the result would be.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> Solution: don't marry a woman who can't support herself or who makes substantially less than you do. If you do, don't complain about paying support in the event the marriage ends. There are no guarantees a marriage will last forever.


Livvie, I know we've gone around about this quite a bit. But your solution, to me, seems to ignore ... oh I don't know ... life.

You could just as easily say be prepared to divorce when your income difference becomes meaningful. Say when your business takes off, you make partner, or get that big promotion. Or at the first sign she wants to stay home with the baby? After all couples, especially young couples, don't often start off with big income differences. They don't often begin with ideas of her staying home. Those things happen as priorities change, and as babies enter the picture.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That is one thing I would NEVER tolerate. As much as I love my husband, if he cheated, I am gone. I won't keep him from his son, of course, he loves him and is a good father. But I'm not going to stay with someone who no longer loves me just so I'm not alone, and I certainly am not going to beg someone to stay with me. Besides, if someone cheats and you don't leave, you've given them permission to cheat by showing them you won't do anything if they do. No one deserves to be someone's consolation prize. If being faithful to you is too much to ask, she doesn't see how valuable you are and is therefore not worth your time. Scorched earth, baby. Enjoy the wasteland of your own making. 💥


I get you feel this is the way you would react, but don’t insult every person here that has decided to reconcile with a spouse that cheated by tossing out crap like “you are giving permission to cheat”. **** that noise. Reconciling doesn’t equal rolling over.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> Livvie, I know we've gone around about this quite a bit. But your solution, to me, seems to ignore ... oh I don't know ... life.
> 
> You could just as easily say be prepared to divorce when your income difference becomes meaningful. Say when your business takes off, you make partner, or get that big promotion. Or at the first sign she wants to stay home with the baby? After all couples, especially young couples, don't often start off with big income differences. They don't often begin with ideas of her staying home. Those things happen as priorities change, and as babies enter the picture.


Of course. I'm mainly talking about the woman who NEVER worked and also who doesn't work _even when the kids are older._ If you are a man and are okay with this situation then you are going to be paying spousal support in the event of a divorce. You just are. So then, just don't complain about it. You accepted that she didn't work for decades.

If someone's income takes off and you gotta split assets in a divorce that sucks, but if the other spouse worked and contributed as much as they could, you might not feel so bitter about it. If one person is out working hard and the other is basically living a full time life of leisure... just doesn't seem to be balanced, does it? She lives a life of total leisure while he works hard, just because she has a vagina? What?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That isn't my experience, but everyone has different experiences in life I guess. The "gender pay gap" is not a true statistic because you're not comparing apples to apples. That 77% stat comes from comparing all women, working or not, to all men. So you're including housewives with no income in the women column and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in the men column. The truth is, if a woman makes all the same career choices a man makes, she usually makes the same money the man makes. I can personally attest to that. I was 36 when I had my son, so I'd been working for a decade and was pretty much on par with the men with my same job. I pulled back when my priorities changed, so those guys have advanced and been promoted and I haven't. That is because they're willing to commit more time than I am because I made a choice to put my son first. (It is NOT a sacrifice, it's a choice. He's so much more important to me than my career) The reason there are fewer female CEOs isn't because of sexism, it's because getting to that career level requires a time commitment that would make you neglect your kids (if you have them). I mean, not everyone is the same, some people have more education, and sometimes the stars align for someone in a way they don't for others. (Nepotism is a thing, too, I have a friend who is a CFO because her Dad's college roommate owns the company, she's good at her job but got it with way less experience than normal). But in truth, while sure, sexism is a thing, it's not as bad as the media keeps telling us it is. I mean, I'm in Oil & Gas. Talk about good ol' boys. I've never had a single executive question my abilities because I'm a woman, it's only the lower level managers and beta males who do that.


Well, in my profession, men who were on a parallel path to me made literally twice what I was paid, like I got $30K and they got $60K. We were equally qualified, and in fact, I had more experience by 2-3 years. And I had some college, and the one making the most had no college.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Bluesclues said:


> I get you feel this is the way you would react, but don’t insult every person here that has decided to reconcile with a spouse that cheated by tossing out crap like “you are giving permission to cheat”. **** that noise. Reconciling doesn’t equal rolling over.


I don't mean to insult anyone. I disagree, but that's ok, people can disagree. I'm sure I've made decisions you wouldn't agree with, but I know they were right for me, and I don't feel insulted if someone doesn't make the same choices.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I did that yesterday. I blocked this hateful MGTOW incel who was posting about how horrible it is that women are allowed to work. He responded to some other posts and curiosity got the better of me. What he posted was of course vile and psychotic so I learned my lesson! 😉


Please hit the report button for very nasty posts, this way us mods can review it.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, in my profession, men who were on a parallel path to me made literally twice what I was paid, like I got $30K and they got $60K. We were equally qualified, and in fact, I had more experience by 2-3 years. And I had some college, and the one making the most had no college.


What did your boss say when you pointed that out?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Please hit the report button for very nasty posts, this was us mods can review it.


Will do, thanks.  I will use discretion, though, sometimes what I think is really nasty might not offend other people.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Please hit the report button for very nasty posts, this was us mods can review it.


She means me. I didn't say anything personal. I only said what has been well documented about female and male sexual patterns. 
Nothing to report, imo. 
I am always polite.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jonty30 said:


> She means me. I didn't say anything personal. I only said what has been well documented about female and male sexual patterns.
> Nothing to report, imo.
> I am always polite.


Contrary to what some might think we actually don't take action on many of the reports we get. We evaluate the post to see if it complies with forum rules. If it does then people are free to simply ignore it. I've reviewed many posts that I personally didn't like but did nothing because my dislike doesn't necessarily mean breaking forum rules.

But we can't be everywhere so reports are important.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> What did your boss say when you pointed that out?


I didn't point that out because to do so would have gotten the people who told me what they made in trouble.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Contrary to what some might think we actually don't take action on many of the reports we get. We evaluate the post to see if it complies with forum rules. If it does then people are free to simply ignore it. I've reviewed many posts that I personally didn't like but did nothing because my dislike doesn't necessarily mean breaking forum rules.
> 
> But we can't be everywhere so reports are important.


I understand. I was being completely honest, because my comments were made in good faith with no intention of being disrespectful or personal. 
By volunteering that she was meaning me, I was giving the opportunity for you to scan my comments and remove the ones that were inherently offensive and not factual.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> Of course. I'm mainly talking about the woman who NEVER worked and also who doesn't work _even when the kids are older._ If you are a man and are okay with this situation then you are going to be paying spousal support in the event of a divorce. You just are. So then, just don't complain about it. You accepted that she didn't work for decades.
> 
> If someone's income takes off and you gotta split assets in a divorce that sucks, but if the other spouse worked and contributed as much as they could, you might not feel so bitter about it. If one person is out working hard and the other is basically living a full time life of leisure... just doesn't seem to be balanced, does it? She lives a life of total leisure while he works hard, just because she has a vagina? What?


It sounds almost like you're advising to not marry at all? The only way to win is not to play?

Let's play it out a bit. He objects to her not working after the standard 12 weeks maternity leave. She insists. What are his options? Kick her out with his newborn? He goes along with it until pre-K. Now she again refuses. Kick her out with his toddler? Now her income has been zero for a few years. Men aren't wired that way. We're wired to provide for our families. Men of my generation and earlier were taught to take it as a point of pride. 

"If one person is out working hard and the other is basically living a full time life of leisure... just doesn't seem to be balanced, does it?"

How does forcing that hard worker to continue supporting the other after that other chooses to leave any more balanced?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> It sounds almost like you're advising to not marry at all? The only way to win is not to play?
> 
> Let's play it out a bit. He objects to her not working after the standard 12 weeks maternity leave. She insists. What are his options? Kick her out with his newborn? He goes along with it until pre-K. Now she again refuses. Kick her out with his toddler? Now her income has been zero for a few years. Men aren't wired that way. We're wired to provide for our families. Men of my generation and earlier were taught to take it as a point of pride.
> 
> ...


70% of men between 25 and 40 are opting out of marriage.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Livvie said:


> Of course. I'm mainly talking about the woman who NEVER worked and also who doesn't work _even when the kids are older._ If you are a man and are okay with this situation then you are going to be paying spousal support in the event of a divorce. You just are. So then, just don't complain about it. You accepted that she didn't work for decades.
> 
> If someone's income takes off and you gotta split assets in a divorce that sucks, but if the other spouse worked and contributed as much as they could, you might not feel so bitter about it. If one person is out working hard and the other is basically living a full time life of leisure... just doesn't seem to be balanced, does it? She lives a life of total leisure while he works hard, just because she has a vagina? What?


Agree. Respect is earned, not given. Staying home with little children is one thing; staying home because you don't want adult responsibilities, or staying home because your husband wants you to, is another. My mother stood by while my father beat us and her so that she wouldn't have to get a job. That has seriously colored my view of staying home, I could never, ever not have a job. I realize that's an extreme view and my father is CERTAINLY not representative of all men. But I hear a lot of men talk about wanting a "submissive wife" who then turn around and complain when she can't support herself. You can't ask her to give up her safety net and then complain when you're expected to hold up your end of the bargain even when she isn't young and cellulite-free any more.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I didn't point that out because to do so would have gotten the people who told me what they made in trouble.


Were you not able to find another job? Also, you could have told your boss you feel you deserve a raise without bringing up comparisons.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well, in my profession, men who were on a parallel path to me made literally twice what I was paid, like I got $30K and they got $60K. We were equally qualified, and in fact, I had more experience by 2-3 years. And I had some college, and the one making the most had no college.


How long ago was this?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> It sounds almost like you're advising to not marry at all? The only way to win is not to play?
> 
> Let's play it out a bit. He objects to her not working after the standard 12 weeks maternity leave. She insists. What are his options? Kick her out with his newborn? He goes along with it until pre-K. Now she again refuses. Kick her out with his toddler? Now her income has been zero for a few years. Men aren't wired that way. We're wired to provide for our families. Men of my generation and earlier were taught to take it as a point of pride.
> 
> ...


Well I realize that hindsight is always 20/20 but this is the kind of thing you should really hash out before you get married. But I also realize that sometimes people do and one person is lying. I do know a woman who told her husband before they married she would always work and then after the second child decided she wanted to stay home, despite having a nanny and sending the kids to daycare. They compromised, she worked part time, then deliberately got fired so she could stop working. Now she does... nothing. She completely tricked him, and with the way family courts are if he divorced her she would never let him see his children. In those kinds of cases, I don't think the man should have to support her.

But if a man wants a housewife and then decides when she hits 40 he wants a new housewife and just abandons her with their kids so he can marry a new 23 year old, that changes things. He lied to her, and made her give up her earning potential, and is now abandoning her. That isn't right either.

I'm pretty sure the argument she is making about balance is that both people need to contribute. I think you guys actually agree on this. I know I agree with that. Adults contribute. And if your kids are in school all day, you're not a SAHM, you're unemployed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> It sounds almost like you're advising to not marry at all? The only way to win is not to play?
> 
> Let's play it out a bit. He objects to her not working after the standard 12 weeks maternity leave. She insists. What are his options? Kick her out with his newborn? He goes along with it until pre-K. Now she again refuses. Kick her out with his toddler? Now her income has been zero for a few years. Men aren't wired that way. We're wired to provide for our families. Men of my generation and earlier were taught to take it as a point of pride.
> 
> ...


If a woman is out of the workforce until a couple of kids are in first grade, spousal support shouldn't be for too long. If you are married to a woman who outright refuses to get a job once the kids are older and refuses to come to a mutually agreed upon solution, then it's a crap relationship and you should get divorced sooner rather than later anyway, then it WON'T be decades!! of no work history. If you choose to stay with and fully support someone for decades, there are consequences to that choice. Then don't complain about it!!

I'm saying...deal with your choice to stay in a marriage with a woman who won't work (which will mean suport payments if you divorce).

Or perhaps men should choose more carefully and instead of mostly the hot factor, CHOOSE an educated woman who VALUES contributing financially to the marriage. 

Your last sentence is just silly. If someone hasn't worked in a couple is decades they won't have the ability to support themselves. In that case it's fair to provide support payments.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well I realize that hindsight is always 20/20 but this is the kind of thing you should really hash out before you get married. But I also realize that sometimes people do and one person is lying. I do know a woman who told her husband before they married she would always work and then after the second child decided she wanted to stay home, despite having a nanny and sending the kids to daycare. They compromised, she worked part time, then deliberately got fired so she could stop working. Now she does... nothing. She completely tricked him, and with the way family courts are if he divorced her she would never let him see his children. In those kinds of cases, I don't think the man should have to support her.
> 
> But if a man wants a housewife and then decides when she hits 40 he wants a new housewife and just abandons her with their kids so he can marry a new 23 year old, that changes things. He lied to her, and made her give up her earning potential, and is now abandoning her. That isn't right either.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the argument she is making about balance is that both people need to contribute. I think you guys actually agree on this. I know I agree with that. Adults contribute. And if your kids are in school all day, you're not a SAHM, you're unemployed.


The problem is that all men are treated like your second paragraph by family court. Regardless of situation, or who filed. (Note: 70% of filings are done by the wife.)


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> 70% of men between 25 and 40 are opting out of marriage.


Can you just stop with the really ridiculous data that isn't true.




__





Explore Census Data







data.census.gov




There is a link to census data in the US.

Here's the bottom line. Now since some of those people are going to be women. Dug into the table it represents people 15 and up. So not too many 15 years are married. You can see how crazy saying 70% of men....
Marriage is on the decline but you need to get off those redpill sites that lie and make stuff up.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Can you just stop with the really ridiculous data that isn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All right. 66.1% of men will never marry. You got me!

Does that still sound like the majority of men are planning to marry women to you?
Does that sound like to you that the majority of women can expect a husband anytime in their life?

Bachelor Nation: 70% of Men Aged 20-34 Are Not Married | CNSNews


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

now if you want to narrow that from 20 to 34 you are getting closer to a good argument.

However tons marry from 35 and up. So maybe they are just doing what people recommend dating and making sure they are stable.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> All right. 66.1% of men will never marry. You got me!
> 
> Does that still sound like the majority of men are planning to marry women to you?
> Does that sound like to you that the majority of women can expect a husband anytime in their life?
> ...


First off Bachelor nation isn't a better newsource than the US Census. Here's a snip from said data that show by the time a guy reaches 65 only 6.2% of them have never married. Geeze again get some better data. What this data below shows is that men are marrying later from 35 to 65. Not that they never marry.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> now if you want to narrow that from 20 to 34 you are getting closer to a good argument.
> 
> However tons marry from 35 and up. So maybe they are just doing what people recommend dating and making sure they are stable.


The older the male, the less likely they will marry. 
Habits are hard to break. 

After 35, I'm concerning myself with retirement, not kids. 
There is no reason to marry after 35.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Of course what this thread shows is some people shouldn't marry.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> The older the male, the less likely they will marry.
> Habits are hard to break.
> 
> After 35, I'm concerning myself with retirement, not kids.
> There is no reason to marry after 35.


but you claim you are already married.??


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Of course what this thread shows is some people shouldn't marry.


I'm not concerned about that.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> but you claim you are already married.??


I'm only stating the stats. I'm not stating it on a personal level.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> The problem is that all men are treated like your second paragraph by family court. Regardless of situation, or who filed. (Note: 70% of filings are done by the wife.)


Who normally does the paperwork in pretty much everything? The woman. If a man cheats, or hits her, he probably doesn't WANT a divorce, but that doesn't mean she should have to stay. It's fun and easy to blame women alone for the divorce rate, or for 70% of the divorce rate, but that's not representative of the actual reality. Statistics will say whatever you want them to say, you can always find some statistic or another to support an argument. Without the details of the underlying data, however, statistics are pretty meaningless.

That said, you are SO right. The family courts are a mess, they're completely unfair. I love Texas, but this is a BIG problem here. The mother ALWAYS gets preferential treatment regardless of the situation, and bio parents are always favored. Plus we have that nightmare with that poor little boy whose mother is forcing him to dress and live as a girl even though he doesn't want to and the courts won't let his father save him. We need to clear out the family courts and STOP hurting dads.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> First off Bachelor nation isn't a better newsource than the US Census. Here's a snip from said data that show by the time a guy reaches 65 only 6.2% of them have never married. Geeze again get some better data. What this data below shows is that men are marrying later from 35 to 65. Not that they never marry.
> View attachment 79701


These numbers will most likely shift, a 65 yr old today was brought up in a very different time. Also you'd have to compare data sets when you are talking about population trends. Current data alone says nothing. The trend is your friend.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> The older the male, the less likely they will marry.
> Habits are hard to break.
> 
> After 35, I'm concerning myself with retirement, not kids.
> There is no reason to marry after 35.


What about people that wait and get married and start a family in their mid to late 30s?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

With the courts today, a man would be better off risking all his assets on the tiger king token than risking them in family court.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What about people that wait and get married and start a family in their mid to late 30s?


If an older male marries and is wanting children, he's going to focus on younger females. 
Our society has made getting married too dangerous for the guy. Men are acting on the incentives that are there.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What about people that wait and get married and start a family in their mid to late 30s?


That's what I did. I was 33 when I got married and 36 when I had my son. I had a stable career and waited until I found a man with the same values I have. It look a loooong time.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> With the courts today, a man would be better off risking all his assets on the tiger king token than risking them in family court.


Or, in celebration of the wedding, putting it into a big pile and setting it on fire.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> All right. 66.1% of men will never marry. You got me!
> 
> Does that still sound like the majority of men are planning to marry women to you?
> Does that sound like to you that the majority of women can expect a husband anytime in their life?
> ...


How do you do math? She posted census data said 33.9% of people never get married. How does that work out to be 66.1% of men never marry? That makes no sense, or am I missing something?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How do you do math? She posted census data said 33.9% of people never get married. How does that work out to be 66.1% of men never marry? That makes no sense, or am I missing something?


That's how it is right now, but that's not the trendline. The trendline for males marrying is downward.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How do you do math? She posted census data said 33.9% of people never get married. How does that work out to be 66.1% of men never marry? That makes no sense, or am I missing something?


 90% of all statistics are made up.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> These numbers will most likely shift, a 65 yr old today was brought up in a very different time. Also you'd have to compare data sets when you are talking about population trends. Current data alone says nothing. The trend is your friend.


Yes the trend is your friend I agree. marriage is on the decline I agree. But I also know a big trend is to 'date' live together, shack up for 10-13 years and marry after the 2nd child. Sound wayyy to familiar. Many men are marrying after 34. You really think that at 65 (in 40 years ) that 70% of the men will have never married? Do you think that's what we are going to see?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> 90% of all statistics are made up.


Statistically speaking 73.6% of stats are made up


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Don't most of these 'men' have to figure out how to stop living in mama's basement before they can marry?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Yes the trend is your friend I agree. marriage is on the decline I agree. But I also know a big trend is to 'date' live together, shack up for 10-13 years and marry after the 2nd child. Sound wayyy to familiar. Many men are marrying after 34. You really think that at 65 (in 40 years ) that 70% of the men will have never married? Do you think that's what we are going to see?


In 40yrs the legal definition of marriage will most likely change. You might be able to marry a jump rope by then.

However if it did stay static I think it's reasonable to see the current number double or triple over the next 4 decades.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> That's how it is right now, but that's not the trendline. The trendline for males marrying is downward.


As usual you didn't answer the question. How does 33.9% of people never getting married = 66.1% of men never getting married? I guess the answer is you just make it up, so it must be true, no?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Statistically speaking 73.6% of stats are made up


Well ya know math has never been my strength.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> In 40yrs the legal definition of marriage will most likely change. You might be able to marry a jump rope by then.
> 
> However if it did stay static I think it's reasonable to see the current number double or triple over the next 4 decades.


sure and triple would be that by 65 18% would have never married


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> As usual you didn't answer the question. How does 33.9% of people never getting married = 66.1% of men never getting married? I guess the answer is you just make it up, so it must be true, no?


Math. 100-33.9


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> sure and triple would be that by 65 18% would have never married


Only 65 years or older. It also triples for all other age groups.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> sure and triple would be that by 65 18% would have never married


So that must mean by 65 82% of men never married married, right @jonty30 ?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Here's the data for women. You can see a few more women marry younger (big surprise). But by that arguement 61% of women are refusing to marry and by 65 6% have never married. Only a 0.2% difference


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> Only 65 years or older. It also triples for all other age groups.


so your really good at statistics then cause you just implied that 210% of men age 20-34 wouldn't be married

Ok and with that I'm out. I have to get back to teaching AP statistics to the young folk so this doesn't happen more often.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So that must mean by 65 82% of men never married married, right @jonty30 ?


That's if I'm a bit mistaken, but it is still a downward trend, because there is no benefits to marriage for the male in society.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Math. 100-33.9


Dude, that means 66.1% GOT MARRIED. How can the density level be so high?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> That's if I'm a bit mistaken, but it is still a downward trend, because there is no benefits to marriage for the male in society.


I hope your job doesn't require any math skills


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Only 65 years or older. It also triples for all other age groups.


Yeah, with common core maths maybe.

With normal math the attrition would just slow so that there would be more unmarried remaining.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Just for fun here's a currently married chart for men


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Just for fun here's a currently married chart for men
> View attachment 79703


Overall half. 

Trendline downward as the age gets younger. 

It will be interesting 5 years from now.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> If a woman is out of the workforce until a couple of kids are in first grade, spousal support shouldn't be for too long. If you are married to a woman who outright refuses to get a job once the kids are older and refuses to come to a mutually agreed upon solution, then it's a crap relationship and you should get divorced sooner rather than later anyway, then it WON'T be decades!! of no work history. If you choose to stay with and fully support someone for decades, there are consequences to that choice. Then don't complain about it!!
> 
> I'm saying...deal with your choice to stay in a marriage with a woman who won't work (which will mean suport payments if you divorce).
> 
> ...


I hear you. But why are the consequences only one way? If you choose to not work for decades the consequences to you are to continue to be supported? That makes no sense either.

In those early years, the concern isn't so much financial support, but becoming estranged from your children. I know you've read stories here, and elsewhere about men denied access to their children while ex's new boyfriend fills his role. It's a lose-lose choice. 

You seem very focused on the idea that the only contributions to a marriage are financial. I cannot support that idea. I do think a marriage works best with a division of the duties and responsibilities. But I also think that as long as those duties and responsibilities are being upheld, divorce should not be possible. There should be some assurances that as long as you are upholding your end you won't be hit with a no-fault walk away spouse and all that entails.

Since that is not the case, I'd have to ask what possible benefit marriage is to men? On those grounds, as you know from previous chat, I'm a proponent of going your own way.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Marriage today is an unconscionable contract for most guys. I presented similar terms in a business setting I'd be laughed out of the room. If I ran a business on such terms I'd be treated like Bernie Madoff


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Marriage today is an unconscionable contract for most guys. I presented similar terms in a business setting I'd be laughed out of the room. If I ran a business on such terms I'd be treated like Bernie Madoff


I expect the feminists to apply the Roman solution to single men. Severe taxation penalties for singlehood. 
That way, it is better to get married, even though marriage for the male is not good. Not good single. Not good married.

The life of the male in the matriarchy.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> I expect the feminists to apply the Roman solution to single men. Severe taxation penalties for singlehood.
> That way, it is better to get married, even though marriage for the male is not good. Not good single. Not good married.
> 
> The life of the male in the matriarchy.


Actually that would be a great idea. All you'd have to do is to identify as two different genders and marry yourself lol.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Were you not able to find another job? Also, you could have told your boss you feel you deserve a raise without bringing up comparisons.


It wouldn't have made a difference if I'd found another job. Women didn't get paid good money at that time.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> I hear you. But why are the consequences only one way? If you choose to not work for decades the consequences to you are to continue to be supported? That makes no sense either.
> 
> In those early years, the concern isn't so much financial support, but becoming estranged from your children. I know you've read stories here, and elsewhere about men denied access to their children while ex's new boyfriend fills his role. It's a lose-lose choice.
> 
> ...


The problem I have is how do you determine who decided to not work? How do you differentiate between a wife that didn't work because she was lazy or a wife that stayed at home as a family decision? How would a court sort that out?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> How long ago was this?


That job that I'm especially thinking of was in the 80s but there were more.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Anyone can read the stats on working people and what they make and there is still a big inequality between women and men salaries. It's better than it used to be, and the stats aren't skewed if you read the right stats because they're people who work, not taking into consideration people who don't work like the former poster said, at least not any I've ever seen


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It wouldn't have made a difference if I'd found another job. Women didn't get paid good money at that time.


Gosh, when was that? 

I ask because the hardest, most unnatural feeling thing I ever had to do was make demands at work. It is so hard for me to ask, especially for money. But I did it, and when I asked, I got it. But if you never ask, they'll let you work for way less. In my experience, when men get paid more it's because they are better at negotiating. Bottom line, if there was some kind of standard by which women got paid less, no men would have jobs, they'd just hire us for 2/3 the money. It's hard but you only get what you demand.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Anastasia6 said:


> Don't most of these 'men' have to figure out how to stop living in mama's basement before they can marry?


There it is. The misandry is strong.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Actually that would be a great idea. All you'd have to do is to identify as two different genders and marry yourself lol.


I identify myself as two people 

That's a great idea.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It wouldn't have made a difference if I'd found another job. Women didn't get paid good money at that time.


Oprah didn't get the memo. Her show started in 86.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> There it is. The misandry is strong.


My commentary is nothing more than how society is, not anything personal by me. 
I try to keep my personal opinion to myself.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Anyone can read the stats on working people and what they make and there is still a big inequality between women and men salaries. It's better than it used to be, and the stats aren't skewed if you read the right stats because they're people who work, not taking into consideration people who don't work like the former poster said, at least not any I've ever seen


The example you gave from you job in the 80's is straight up sex discrimination. I do think it has gotten much better. What I never see address in the stats is how do you account for things like a woman leaving the workforce to raise kids then jumping back in. I wonder if they are really able to normalize all variables and get an accurate comparison.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That isn't my experience, but everyone has different experiences in life I guess. The "gender pay gap" is not a true statistic because you're not comparing apples to apples. That 77% stat comes from comparing all women, working or not, to all men. So you're including housewives with no income in the women column and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in the men column. The truth is, if a woman makes all the same career choices a man makes, she usually makes the same money the man makes. I can personally attest to that. I was 36 when I had my son, so I'd been working for a decade and was pretty much on par with the men with my same job. I pulled back when my priorities changed, so those guys have advanced and been promoted and I haven't. That is because they're willing to commit more time than I am because I made a choice to put my son first. (It is NOT a sacrifice, it's a choice. He's so much more important to me than my career) The reason there are fewer female CEOs isn't because of sexism, it's because getting to that career level requires a time commitment that would make you neglect your kids (if you have them). I mean, not everyone is the same, some people have more education, and sometimes the stars align for someone in a way they don't for others. (Nepotism is a thing, too, I have a friend who is a CFO because her Dad's college roommate owns the company, she's good at her job but got it with way less experience than normal). But in truth, while sure, sexism is a thing, it's not as bad as the media keeps telling us it is. I mean, I'm in Oil & Gas. Talk about good ol' boys. I've never had a single executive question my abilities because I'm a woman, it's only the lower level managers and beta males who do that.


I didn't have kids and I worked two jobs most of my life to make up for the pay deficit. No one questioned my ability.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The example you gave from you job in the 80's is straight up sex discrimination. I do think it has gotten much better. What I never see address in the stats is how do you account for things like a woman leaving the workforce to raise kids then jumping back in. I wonder if they are really able to normalize all variables and get an accurate comparison.


Most income differences is due to the type of jobs each gender tends to choose. 
Men also are willing to work longer hours, which has an effect on how much money they make overall.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That isn't my experience, but everyone has different experiences in life I guess. The "gender pay gap" is not a true statistic because you're not comparing apples to apples. That 77% stat comes from comparing all women, working or not, to all men. So you're including housewives with no income in the women column and Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos in the men column. The truth is, if a woman makes all the same career choices a man makes, she usually makes the same money the man makes. I can personally attest to that.


I am glad you are willing to stand up and say that. 

Everywhere I have worked the pay scales do not differentiate between men and women. 

Sure, if you are going to make a sweeping generalization comparing the Average income of men vs women as a whole, then yes, the men will probably have the statistical higher number because men generally not out on maternity leave and typically do not go part time until the kids all reach a certain age. 

You have to compare apples to apples. 

Any time someone brings up a gender pay gap, you need to ask if male nurses and male hairdressers make more than female nurses and hairdressers for the same hours of work.

You need to ask if female neuro
surgeons are making less than male neuro surgeons for the same hours of work or female union steel workers making less than male union steel workers. 

Now there are abuses in the world. Somewhere in corporate American there is a nephew of a board member making more than his peers.

But I am will to bet my last dollar that somewhere else is the niece of a board member making more than her peers as well. 

That crap does go on unfortunately, but I see that as gender neutral as well since that is just plain ol’ corruption and shi++yness.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Al_Bundy said:


> Oprah didn't get the memo. Her show started in 86.


You can pretend you haven't seen all the statistics on it but you all have and know it's true. Oprah would be the first to tell you.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownButNotOut said:


> There it is. The misandry is strong.


So you don't think that the millienial trend of living with parents while working or not working gig jobs or going to college for 10 years is effecting the marriage rate?

You view that as misandry only?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I am glad you are willing to stand up and say that.
> 
> Everywhere I have worked the pay scales do not differentiate between men and women.
> 
> ...


Most of the income difference in the same job can be explained that men are willing to work more hours. If the hourly wage is the same, that's going to result in men receiving bigger paycheques.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you don't think that the millienial trend of living with parents while working or not working gig jobs or going to college for 10 years is effecting the marriage rate?
> 
> You view that as misandry only?


I told you. Men are opting out. 

You just now confirmed what I've been telling you.
Men are acting in accordance to the incentives that they have and there are more short-term benefits to dropping out than preparing a future.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The example you gave from you job in the 80's is straight up sex discrimination. I do think it has gotten much better. What I never see address in the stats is how do you account for things like a woman leaving the workforce to raise kids then jumping back in. I wonder if they are really able to normalize all variables and get an accurate comparison.


The standard is equal pay for equal work. There have already been measures taken to give women time off to nurse their baby, who has two parents, and presumably the other one does some things for the child to that require some time and attention. But they're not docked for it. They're also not docked for going to play golf together during work hours or having three hour lunches together or spending half their day standing by the cute receptionist desk talking to her instead of working.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The problem I have is how do you determine who decided to not work? How do you differentiate between a wife that didn't work because she was lazy or a wife that stayed at home as a family decision? How would a court sort that out?


You get rid of no-fault divorce. He is guilty of marital misconduct? (cruelty, infidelity, abandonment) He pays.

She was guilty? She gets nothing.

Neither guilty? No divorce, work it out.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> I told you. Men are opting out.
> 
> You just now confirmed what I've been telling you.
> Men are acting in accordance to the incentives that they have and there are more short-term benefits to dropping out than preparing a future.


And you think only men are living at home? Only men are working gig jobs?

ETA: and you think women are beating down the basement doors to get married to these 'men'? or that men are particularly attracted to the sloth women? I will give you that some men are attracted to any woman who will have them but be realistic. There are way more reasons for a lower marriage rate in the lower ages than just some massive boycott by men for the reasons you are stating.


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## jjj858 (Jun 18, 2021)

Not sure where the conversation is now as I’m late to the party here. But to reply to the original post. Yes it’s very easy for just about any woman to find sex if they want it. But a married woman in her forties in a sexless marriage might be staying for other reasons such as financial stability, a certain level of comfort and lifestyle, etc. If they leave the marriage is finding sex a problem? No. But finding a man willing to provide that same level of financial support they enjoyed? Unless they are very attractive it could be hard to find again. There are also plenty of guys who will promise the world just to get in your pants and then peace out once they get what they wanted.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Anyone can read the stats on working people and what they make and there is still a big inequality between women and men salaries. It's better than it used to be, and the stats aren't skewed if you read the right stats because they're people who work, not taking into consideration people who don't work like the former poster said, at least not any I've ever seen


How much of that disparity is because of their gender and how much is because women don't negotiate higher salaries like men do? That would honestly be impossible. I also need to remember I'm not like other women. I've always been stubbornly independent because of my childhood and it's not fair to compare other women who weren't motivated the same way I was. I'd rather take a risk on asking for a raise than take the risk of not having my own money. My greatest fear is a lack of control.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> And you think only men are living at home? Only men are working gig jobs?


I'm just talking about the men. The university system favours women, so more women are getting post-secondary degrees.
At most colleges and universities, the majority of students are women.

Consequently, because the educational achievements of men are lower, it results in a lowering standard of living for men, which affects their ability to marry and get good paying jobs.
There are no incentives for men to improve this, so they don't.
The men are generally fine with the arrangement.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> I'm just talking about the men. The university system favours women, so more women are getting post-secondary degrees.
> At most colleges and universities, the majority of students are women.
> 
> Consequently, because the educational achievements of men are lower, it results in a lowering standard of living for men, which affects their ability to marry and get good paying jobs.
> There are no incentives for men to improve this, so they don't.


Ok so now it isn't in a man's best interest to make more money?

Doesn't he have his own life to pay for whether he marries or not?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> The standard is equal pay for equal work. There have already been measures taken to give women time off to nurse their baby, who has two parents, and presumably the other one does some things for the child to that require some time and attention. But they're not docked for it. They're also not docked for going to play golf together during work hours or having three hour lunches together or spending half their day standing by the cute receptionist desk talking to her instead of working.


What company gives 3 hr lunches??? That's a line usually used by people outside the corporate world. The reality is that you usually work through your lunch. Lunch is eating at your desk if you're lucky.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ok so now it isn't in a man's best interest to make more money?
> 
> Doesn't he have his own life to pay for whether he marries or not?


Why does he need to make more money, when he is making enough for himself?

Men, without women, tend to only do what they need to do and not much more than that. 
Men can be happy with a single room apartment and a bean bag chair to sleep in. 

It is women that want homes.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Anastasia6 said:


> So you don't think that the millienial trend of living with parents while working or not working gig jobs or going to college for 10 years is effecting the marriage rate?
> 
> You view that as misandry only?


I read it out of context.

Knee-jerk reaction when I see men in scare quotes.

But yes, I do in a bigger sense. These young men have been failed by a society that tells them from a tender age that they are inherently bad, and from households that have no male role models teaching them how to be men. America has a boy crisis.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DownButNotOut said:


> I read it out of context.
> 
> Knee-jerk reaction when I see men in scare quotes.
> 
> But yes, I do in a bigger sense. These young men have been failed by a society that tells them from a tender age that they are inherently bad, and from households that have no male role models teaching them how to be men. America has a boy crisis.


the men is in quotes because these are little boys. And while there are some that have no role models. There are PLENTY of millenials that live at home that have two hard working parents. It's a failure of a whole generation not as simple as men being told they are bad or missing a dad.

America has a work ethic crisis it isn't confined to boys.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I am glad you are willing to stand up and say that.
> 
> Everywhere I have worked the pay scales do not differentiate between men and women.
> 
> ...


The truth that third wave feminists to NOT want to hear is that there is equality of opportunity. Equality is a measure of value. It does NOT mean "same." If women make the same choices, they make the same money, full stop. And most pay disparities between men and women with the same job come down to negotiating skills. For example, I work from home. That is, in my estimation, part of my salary. I would forgo more money to be able to keep working from home, because that is more valuable to me. So are there others with my job who get more money? Possibly. Are some of them men? Likely. Why do they get more money? Probably more than one reason, but what I do know for absolute sure is that the configuration of my reproductive organs is NOT one of those reasons. It is simply not true that women cannot be paid the same as men. And victimhood, while easy and fun, should not be the virtue it's becoming. Victims are powerless, and it is a very rare situation where one is truly powerless.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> the men is in quotes because these are little boys. And while there are some that have no role models. There are PLENTY of millenials that live at home that have two hard working parents. It's a failure of a whole generation not as simple as men being told they are bad or missing a dad.
> 
> America has a work ethic crisis it isn't confined to boys.


When I managed a convenience store, all the young people would quit two minutes later if I expected them to do more than breath. They were untrainable.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> I read it out of context.
> 
> Knee-jerk reaction when I see men in scare quotes.
> 
> But yes, I do in a bigger sense. These young men have been failed by a society that tells them from a tender age that they are inherently bad, and from households that have no male role models teaching them how to be men. America has a boy crisis.


12 years in the public system being told they are bad.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

jonty30 said:


> 12 years in the public system being told they are bad.


you mean in Canada they tell boys they are bad.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> You get rid of no-fault divorce. He is guilty of marital misconduct? (cruelty, infidelity, abandonment) He pays.
> 
> She was guilty? She gets nothing.
> 
> Neither guilty? No divorce, work it out.


The reason to get rid of no fault divorce is to keep women from filing for divorce. That's the only reason. It's to force women to have to have their husband's permission to divorce, which means in instances of abuse or infidelity on the part of the man, the woman is trapped.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> you mean in Canada they tell boys they are bad.


Both the US and Canada. You see the end results in men not attending universities.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> Ok so now it isn't in a man's best interest to make more money?
> 
> Doesn't he have his own life to pay for whether he marries or not?


It's kind of in everyone's best interest to make as much money as they can. That's why we work. For money. If I didn't need money, I'd be breeding Swissies and beekeeping. It's nice when someone can get paid for their "bliss" or whatever people are saying today, but there's a reason why it's called "work."


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It's kind of in everyone's best interest to make as much money as they can. That's why we work. For money. If I didn't need money, I'd be breeding Swissies and beekeeping. It's nice when someone can get paid for their "bliss" or whatever people are saying today, but there's a reason why it's called "work."


Men tend to prefer their free time, if they are only providing for themselves. 
Only a minority of men would be workaholics as single men.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Men openly admit they don't care about a potential partner's financial picture. They mostly care if she's hot or not.


I don’t think a lot of guys are saying that in the context you are interpreting it as.

I cared A LOT about my partner’s financial responsibility and financial temperaments and income potential and spending habits and credit rating etc etc. 

I think when people talking about how men view women’s financial resources and acumen, it’s not that they don’t care and it’s not that it’s not a concern for them .... it’s that it is not an attraction or desire criteria for men in the way that it is for women. 

A woman may see a man’s financial statement/profession and either be attracted to him or repulsed by him due to that.

A man’s profession/income/financial status is absolutely an attraction criteria for women. 

For men, a woman’s financial status/profession doesn’t weigh as heavily for his attraction and desire for her as it would a woman. 

A woman finds out a man is a doctor/lawyer etc, that is a big point in her attraction for him. 

A man finds out a woman is a doctor/lawyer.. it doesn’t impact his attraction for her much. 

If he is wanting to have a traditional home and family life with a SAHM, it may even be a strike against her. 

It was very important to me that my partner be financially independent, solvent and responsible for me to enter into marriage with her —— but it really did not impact my attraction or desire for her. 

It impacted my decision to marry her,, but did not impact my attraction or desire for her per se. 

It was important she was responsible and solvent and able to support herself and any potential children if something were to happen to me as I was in a very harzardous profession at the time. But whether she was a secretary or executive or a hairdresser or brain surgeon didn’t impact my actual feelings or attraction for her. 

I think that is what is often meant when guys say that a woman’s job or financial status doesn’t influence their attraction that much.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> America has a work ethic crisis it isn't confined to boys.


We also have a victimhood crisis. No one wants to suck it up and make their own luck, everyone is a victim of something, sexism, society, blah blah blah. America was founded by strong people willing to work hard. Hard work fixes most problems. There will never, EVER be a shortage of excuses to do nothing and feel sorry for yourself. Not a productive way to live.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> I hear you. But why are the consequences only one way? If you choose to not work for decades the consequences to you are to continue to be supported? That makes no sense either.
> 
> In those early years, the concern isn't so much financial support, but becoming estranged from your children. I know you've read stories here, and elsewhere about men denied access to their children while ex's new boyfriend fills his role. It's a lose-lose choice.
> 
> ...


The consequences are one way because only one party has funds in the scenario we are talking about. She can choose not to work, but it's only a choice for her to live a work free life only as far as someone else chooses right along with her, _and stays married to her_, and goes ahead and supports her ass for decades. That makes it a jointly decided life structure scenario, and at the end of that joint life, you can't leave someone with no way to live, eat, have shelter. 

You can't litigate, in court or just personally "holding up your end" as a reason no fault divorce shouldn't be possible. Holy ****!!!! What about the guy who holds up his end and works and is a good dad but treats his wife like she is a piece of ****? She can't get a no fault divorce because he worked and is a good dad and holds up his end in that way??? WTF.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Anastasia6 said:


> the men is in quotes because these are little boys. And while there are some that have no role models. There are PLENTY of millenials that live at home that have two hard working parents. It's a failure of a whole generation not as simple as men being told they are bad or missing a dad.
> 
> America has a work ethic crisis it isn't confined to boys.


How old are your boys?

What I see is elementary education that has been redesigned to better teach little girls, while removing those teaching styles that boys better connect with. Junior/Senior high boys constantly being bombarded with how they are all potential abusers/[email protected] Across all grades, teachers are overwhelmingly women. Often it is high school before a boy has a male teacher as role model. There are solid statistics that boys are graded more harshly than girls. In the local high school there were 44 high honor students. Only 10 of them were boys. In the senior scholarships awards, over 2/3rds were only eligible for the girls. Girls were awarded 80% of all of them, and 100% of the highest aid awards. The majority of university students are now young women. As at high school, young men on campus are inundated with how they are inherently bad. Movies/TV men are primarily either laughing-stock buffoon dads, or the villain for a Mary Sue. Young men and boys are committing suicide at higher rates today, and at 4 times the rate of young women and girls. Yes. America has a boy crisis.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> How old are your boys?
> 
> What I see is elementary education that has been redesigned to better teach little girls, while removing those teaching styles that boys better connect with. Junior/Senior high boys constantly being bombarded with how they are all potential abusers/[email protected] Across all grades, teachers are overwhelmingly women. Often it is high school before a boy has a male teacher as role model. There are solid statistics that boys are graded more harshly than girls. In the local high school there were 44 high honor students. Only 10 of them were boys. In the senior scholarships awards, over 2/3rds were only eligible for the girls. Girls were awarded 80% of all of them, and 100% of the highest aid awards. The majority of university students are now young women. As at high school, young men on campus are inundated with how they are inherently bad. Movies/TV men are primarily either laughing-stock buffoon dads, or the villain for a Mary Sue. Young men and boys are committing suicide at higher rates today, and at 4 times the rate of young women and girls. Yes. America has a boy crisis.


Not to mention that the slightest accusation of rape, true or not, will be enough to derail an entire year of education in the post secondary system.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Livvie said:


> The consequences are one way because only one party has funds in the scenario we are talking about. She can choose not to work, but it's only a choice for her to live a work free life only as far as someone else chooses right along with her, _and stays married to her_, and goes ahead and supports her ass for decades. That makes it a jointly decided life structure scenario, and at the end of that joint life, you can't leave someone with no way to live, eat, have shelter.
> 
> You can't litigate, in court or just personally "holding up your end" as a reason no fault divorce shouldn't be possible. Holy **!!!! What about the guy who holds up his end and works and is a good dad but treats his wife like she is a piece of **? She can't get a no fault divorce because he worked and is a good dad and holds up his end in that way??? WTF.


That is the purpose of getting rid of no-fault divorce. No guy is ever going to admit he's having an affair. No one will ever testify that a woman is being abused and no guy will admit to hitting her. The result of that would be that women would lose their ability to file for divorce and men would still be able to promise to support a woman, take the best years of her life and leave her at 50 with no money, no skills, no home, nothing. There is a reason why that extra room in houses is called the "mother-in-law suite" and not the "in-laws suite." Because the father in law has left with his 26 year old secretary and taken everything and the mother has no options but to be a burden on her children and live her life out alone and miserable. No-fault divorce gives women the freedom to get out of a bad, abusive marriage, to protect herself and her children and to avoid STDs from philandering husbands.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> How old are your boys?
> 
> What I see is elementary education that has been redesigned to better teach little girls, while removing those teaching styles that boys better connect with. Junior/Senior high boys constantly being bombarded with how they are all potential abusers/[email protected] Across all grades, teachers are overwhelmingly women. Often it is high school before a boy has a male teacher as role model. There are solid statistics that boys are graded more harshly than girls. In the local high school there were 44 high honor students. Only 10 of them were boys. In the senior scholarships awards, over 2/3rds were only eligible for the girls. Girls were awarded 80% of all of them, and 100% of the highest aid awards. The majority of university students are now young women. As at high school, young men on campus are inundated with how they are inherently bad. Movies/TV men are primarily either laughing-stock buffoon dads, or the villain for a Mary Sue. Young men and boys are committing suicide at higher rates today, and at 4 times the rate of young women and girls. Yes. America has a boy crisis.


One thing that helps with this more than anything: Dads. Active, present dads.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

DownButNotOut said:


> You get rid of no-fault divorce. He is guilty of marital misconduct? (cruelty, infidelity, abandonment) He pays.
> 
> She was guilty? She gets nothing.
> 
> Neither guilty? No divorce, work it out.


This is a dreamworld naive statement.

Have you ever worked in or experienced the court system?

It's so incredibly subjective, no one on Earth is equipped to sort out the absolute truth of a couple's history and dynamics to make such a determination.

It's impossible to judge or prove with any kind of accuracy or consistency.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

jonty30 said:


> I expect the feminists to apply the Roman solution to single men. Severe taxation penalties for singlehood.
> That way, it is better to get married, even though marriage for the male is not good. Not good single. Not good married.
> 
> The life of the male in the matriarchy.


They're already charging single people more. I pay for all your babies and more than married couples in taxes. Excuse me if I don't appreciate it and think those who consume more should pay more and consider having kids a choice, not a necessity, and have no desire to pay for yours.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> The consequences are one way because only one party has funds in the scenario we are talking about. She can choose not to work, but it's only a choice for her to live a work free life only as far as someone else chooses right along with her, _and stays married to her_, and goes ahead and supports her ass for decades. That makes it a jointly decided life structure scenario, and at the end of that joint life, you can't leave someone with no way to live, eat, have shelter.
> 
> You can't litigate, in court or just personally "holding up your end" as a reason no fault divorce shouldn't be possible. Holy **!!!! What about the guy who holds up his end and works and is a good dad but treats his wife like she is a piece of **? She can't get a no fault divorce because he worked and is a good dad and holds up his end in that way??? WTF.


Marital misconduct has always been grounds for divorce - Cruelty, infidelity, abandonment, etc. In those cases, let the chips fall where they may, and the offending party should face retributive consequences.

And no, neither should be able to check out of their marriage vows just because they ain't feeling it today. "Till death do us part". Not "till I get bored with you".

Again, in a world where marriage is so fickle, and the consequences of failure so dire, what possible benefit is it to men to marry?


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Livvie said:


> This is a dreamworld naive statement.
> 
> Have you ever worked in or experienced the court system?
> 
> ...


Seems to me the three things I listed have a fairly long legal tradition. They were certainly grounds prior to the creation of no-fault.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Marital misconduct has always been grounds for divorce - Cruelty, infidelity, abandonment, etc. In those cases, let the chips fall where they may, and the offending party should face retributive consequences.
> 
> And no, neither should be able to check out of their marriage vows just because they ain't feeling it today. "Till death do us part". Not "till I get bored with you".
> 
> Again, in a world where marriage is so fickle, and the consequences of failure so dire, what possible benefit is it to men to marry?


Without no-fault divorce you have to PROVE those things. All that has to happen is the guy says "I never hit her, she's lying" and unless she can produce a witness willing to testify against his buddy he's off the hook. And surely you don't honestly think a man will admit to infidelity in court? To think that a court can help a woman trapped in an abusive or unfaithful marriage is just ridiculous. They can't, they won't. Why do you think so many abusers end up killing their wives? Because law enforcement can't do anything. 

I'm sure there are people who just "check out" of marriage but it is patently false that is the reason for most divorces.

The benefit to men of marriage is to build a life with someone. To build a family. When both people try, it works out. When only one person tries, it's miserable. When women weren't allowed to sue for divorce, men were happy because they mattered and the woman did not, they were second class citizens and servants. Not having to go to work every day is not enough "benefit" for most women to allow themselves to be subjugated, humiliated, abused and abandoned. Taking away all of women's rights and relegating us back to property is NOT going to fix marriage. It's just going to trap women in miserable situations. 

If marriage means you can be abused for a lifetime and then summarily dumped when you develop cellulite or your husband meets a new 26 year old, what possible benefit is it to women to marry?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Seems to me the three things I listed have a fairly long legal tradition. They were certainly grounds prior to the creation of no-fault.


The three things cannot be proven.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> That is the purpose of getting rid of no-fault divorce. No guy is ever going to admit he's having an affair. No one will ever testify that a woman is being abused and no guy will admit to hitting her. The result of that would be that women would lose their ability to file for divorce and men would still be able to promise to support a woman, take the best years of her life and leave her at 50 with no money, no skills, no home, nothing. There is a reason why that extra room in houses is called the "mother-in-law suite" and not the "in-laws suite." Because the father in law has left with his 26 year old secretary and taken everything and the mother has no options but to be a burden on her children and live her life out alone and miserable. No-fault divorce gives women the freedom to get out of a bad, abusive marriage, to protect herself and her children and to avoid STDs from philandering husbands.


How is he leaving her if he can't get a no-fault divorce himself? Hmm?

If he tries, well that's abandonment and she can get compensation. We have a whole forum board here with people successfully gathering proof of infidelity. Abused women call the police. There's physical evidence there as well.

From the man's standpoint, no-fault divorce is a way for a woman to take his kids, home, pay, and retirement from him for no real reason than her whim.

The "mother-in-law suite" was because the father in law was dead. Most likely a workplace accident, or after a long struggle with work related health problems like cancer from unsafe environments.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> How is he leaving her if he can't get a no-fault divorce himself? Hmm?
> 
> If he tries, well that's abandonment and she can get compensation. We have a whole forum board here with people successfully gathering proof of infidelity. Abused women call the police. There's physical evidence there as well.
> 
> ...


Because he can sue for divorce. He can get one of his buddies to testify that he slept with his wife and he gets his divorce. He can go to court and claim the house wasn't clean enough or she didn't take good enough care of the kids and his word will stand. How do I know? Because that is how it worked before no-fault divorce. If she "snoops" his attorney argues the "evidence" isn't real, that she made it up. Clearly you've never called the police when you were being beaten. They don't do anything. There are whole websites about how to hit your wife and leave no bruises, so there goes this "evidence" you think exists. Besides, by the time you get to court the bruises are healed. Abusers ALWAYS kill their victims eventually, that is what you are advocating for here.

It's not abandonment, because he got a divorce.

If a man believes that a woman will take his kids, home, pay and retirement, perhaps he shouldn't marry her. Perhaps if men got to know women as people instead of just as sex dolls and married for the whole woman instead of T&A there would be less of those kinds of issues. It's very telling that you admit no-fault divorce makes it impossible for women to divorce but not men.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> The "mother-in-law suite" was because the father in law was dead. Most likely a workplace accident, or after a long struggle with work related health problems like cancer from unsafe environments.


This is just incorrect. It's not because he is dead. If he were dead, she would have his retirement and wouldn't be destitute.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Because he can sue for divorce. He can get one of his buddies to testify that he slept with his wife and he gets his divorce. He can go to court and claim the house wasn't clean enough or she didn't take good enough care of the kids and his word will stand. How do I know? Because that is how it worked before no-fault divorce. If she "snoops" his attorney argues the "evidence" isn't real, that she made it up. Clearly you've never called the police when you were being beaten. They don't do anything. There are whole websites about how to hit your wife and leave no bruises, so there goes this "evidence" you think exists. Besides, by the time you get to court the bruises are healed. Abusers ALWAYS kill their victims eventually, that is what you are advocating for here.
> 
> It's not abandonment, because he got a divorce.
> 
> If a man believes that a woman will take his kids, home, pay and retirement, perhaps he shouldn't marry her. Perhaps if men got to know women as people instead of just as sex dolls and married for the whole woman instead of T&A there would be less of those kinds of issues. It's very telling that you admit no-fault divorce makes it impossible for women to divorce but not men.


Maybe in 1930. We are in the age of #believeallwomen . Everything you just mentioned I've seen used against men in custody battles. Lies about infidelity, there are also plenty of websites showing women how to fake bruises, false accusations of child abuse. All on her word alone, no due process needed.

It's not that every woman will, it's that any woman can. Just like combat, you never really know how someone will act until they're in that situation. But I agree with one thing, it's better that men not marry these days.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Maybe in 1930. We are in the age of #believeallwomen . Everything you just mentioned I've seen used against men in custody battles. Lies about infidelity, there are also plenty of websites showing women how to fake bruises, false accusations of child abuse. All on her word alone, no due process needed.
> 
> It's not that every woman will, it's that any woman can. Just like combat, you never really know how someone will act until they're in that situation. But I agree with one thing, it's better that men not marry these days.


I see now why your arguments make no sense. You want to come to the conclusion that it's better for men not to marry, so you're making up things to support that. 

Without no fault divorce, women can't get divorces without their husband agreeing to it. Abusive and cheating husbands want a wife at home, because he wants a live-in servant that he can beat when he's angry and be his consolation prize when he strikes out at the bar. That is what you're looking for here, and I have no idea why you would want to condemn women to such misery, but since you do, that tells me all I really need to know about you.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I see now why your arguments make no sense. You want to come to the conclusion that it's better for men not to marry, so you're making up things to support that.
> 
> Without no fault divorce, women can't get divorces without their husband agreeing to it. Abusive and cheating husbands want a wife at home, because he wants a live-in servant that he can beat when he's angry and be his consolation prize when he strikes out at the bar. That is what you're looking for here, and I have no idea why you would want to condemn women to such misery, but since you do, that tells me all I really need to know about you.


No, I think you and I are looking at opposite ends of the spectrum.

You look at an otherwise good woman who wants to leave a bad man. We both agree that she should be able to, and she should be able to receive compensation when she does.

I look at an otherwise good man who is blindsided by being left. As you've even agreed, what happens to him is unjust. I'm not making anything up here.

See, I'm starting from the position that this good man is entering and maintaining the marriage in good faith. No-fault divorce screws this man when it happens (edit: regardless of who files).

I come to the conclusion that men are better off not marrying because of the very same inequities in family court that you've already agreed exist. With divorce a statistical coin flip, and that as the risk, and no possible way to assure you will avoid those risks, it seems to me better to advise young men to not engage.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> No, I think you and I are looking at opposite ends of the spectrum.
> 
> You look at an otherwise good woman who wants to leave a bad man. We both agree that she should be able to, and she should be able to receive compensation when she does.
> 
> ...


So your position is, if this woman who wants out of the marriage were FORCED by law to stay in a marriage that this is somehow better for this man? That she won't work to make his life miserable if she's not allowed to leave?

Would you advise young women not to marry too? Because it can just as easily go badly for them. 

I will say again, all of this would be solved if people were more adult and responsible. If these glorious and perfect young men were interested in more than a sex doll/housekeeper, and married a woman they knew and liked as a person, they'd be more likely to be successful. Perhaps instead of sitting around pouting and feeling sorry for themselves because the big old mean world is victimizing them they got out and worked to make their lives better, they would find better women and have better lives. Life isn't just something that happens to you, and when you approach it as a victim (I'll just get screwed if I get married because the courts are mean and unfair, I can't make a living or ask for a raise because women are always paid less just because they're women, pretty people get all the advantage so I'll just sit in the corner) it's going to be long and miserable. Fortune favors the bold, always has.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> she should be able to receive compensation when she does.


We differ here. I don't believe in alimony. Child support, sure, but not alimony. It's just another name for welfare. Of course, I would never allow myself to be in a position where I didn't have my own money.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> So your position is, if this woman who wants out of the marriage were FORCED by law to stay in a marriage that this is somehow better for this man? That she won't work to make his life miserable if she's not allowed to leave?
> 
> Would you advise young women not to marry too? Because it can just as easily go badly for them.
> 
> I will say again, all of this would be solved if people were more adult and responsible. If these glorious and perfect young men were interested in more than a sex doll/housekeeper, and married a woman they knew and liked as a person, they'd be more likely to be successful.


Let her leave. But not with more that her share of the estate, and 50/50 child custody max. And definitely no long term support unless marital misconduct can be shown. Anything more should require proper due process.

You keep coming back to this weird sex doll/housekeeper thing. That's how you really think men choose long term mates? For a ONS maybe, but for a LTR looks just get you in the door. After that, locking him down comes down to what else is offered.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> We differ here. I don't believe in alimony. Child support, sure, but not alimony. It's just another name for welfare. Of course, I would never allow myself to be in a position where I didn't have my own money.


Even better. Abolish spousal support altogether. But that would be a hard sell for that innocent SAHM with an abusive hubby. She'd need some help to get on her feet after. I'm at least willing to go that far. It's the long term support to someone who can darned well work herself that get's me going.

Where we do differ it sounds like, is the concept of your money. If you're married I don't believe there is any my money/your money thing. There is only household money. . I don't subscribe to the old canard "What's her's is her's and what's mine is ours".


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Let her leave. But not with more that her share of the estate, and 50/50 child custody max. And definitely no long term support unless marital misconduct can be shown. Anything more should require proper due process.
> 
> You keep coming back to this weird sex doll/housekeeper thing. That's how you really think men choose long term mates? For a ONS maybe, but for a LTR looks just get you in the door. After that, locking him down comes down to what else is offered.


Getting rid of no fault divorce means she cannot leave without proving cause. She cannot divorce without his permission. What you're talking about is changing the laws around alimony and community property. Those are separate from no-fault divorce. I'd be open to reforms there, because those are abused.

No, that's not how real men choose someone to spend their life with. But when you say men shouldn't marry because the woman can divorce and take all his stuff, well, if he knew her well enough to know she wouldn't do that, then he wouldn't need to worry with that. If you choose your partner carefully, and select someone with the same values you have, then those things very rarely happen. They happen when someone marries for money or for looks. Getting to know someone takes time and a lot of long and uncomfortable conversations.

For example, I spent my entire twenties dating. I was 33 before I finally met a man who shared my values and ideas about marriage and family. I was able to do that because I was self-sufficient and didn't need a man to pay my bills for me. We discussed everything, from how many kids we would have to where I wanted to live to expectations for retirement, everything. Marriage is for life, it's a really important choice, you have to choose carefully. You can't legislate that people take those steps, government is never, ever the answer to any problem. People need to take responsibility for themselves.

I'm simply not buying the "I'm a victim of the world" as a basis for living. If life is just something that happened to these guys, and they didn't grab it by the reins and make their own luck, then things will likely go sideways. Lesson learned, next time be more careful. 

Or they can live in their mom's basement, play video games and smoke pot their whole lives. Whichever, it's up to them.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownButNotOut said:


> Even better. Abolish spousal support altogether. But that would be a hard sell for that innocent SAHM with an abusive hubby. She'd need some help to get on her feet after. I'm at least willing to go that far. It's the long term support to someone who can darned well work herself that get's me going.
> 
> Where we do differ it sounds like, is the concept of your money. If you're married I don't believe there is any my money/your money thing. There is only household money. . I don't subscribe to the old canard "What's her's is her's and what's mine is ours".


Wow, you really misread me (deliberately). It's difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who isn't arguing in good faith. I agree we differ on the concept of money, though. Just not in the way you think. We also differ on the concept of personal responsibility, which makes that particular accusation pretty rich.

Here's a fun fact you'll pretend isn't true: abusive spouses never pay alimony. There are no real penalties for that, you know. Besides, if he's giving her money, he knows where she is so he can go kill her for leaving him, so it's not in her favor to get money from him anyway. Child support, alimony, the collection of that is iffy at best. It's not the cash cow you believe it to be. 

You're very inconsistent with this, and seem like a troll now. The notion that I'm sponging off my husband like a lazy, worthless loser was a little too far. I think we're done.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Here's a fun fact you'll pretend isn't true:* abusive spouses never pay alimony*. There are no real penalties for that, you know. Besides, if he's giving her money, he knows where she is so he can go kill her for leaving him, so it's not in her favor to get money from him anyway. *Child support, alimony, the collection of that is iffy at best. It's not the cash cow you believe it to be.*


Da fak? So I can just punch the broad and get out of paying? Man, I need a different attorney. He didn't tell me about that loophole.

As far as how much of a cash cow it is depends on the guy. To me it's insane when you have guys paying more than what most people (median income) make in a year. That's a cash cow, often times paid to a cow......_statistically speaking based on obesity rates in the US._


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Wow, you really misread me (deliberately). It's difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who isn't arguing in good faith. I agree we differ on the concept of money, though. Just not in the way you think. We also differ on the concept of personal responsibility, which makes that particular accusation pretty rich.
> 
> Here's a fun fact you'll pretend isn't true: abusive spouses never pay alimony. There are no real penalties for that, you know. Besides, if he's giving her money, he knows where she is so he can go kill her for leaving him, so it's not in her favor to get money from him anyway. Child support, alimony, the collection of that is iffy at best. It's not the cash cow you believe it to be.
> 
> You're very inconsistent with this, and seem like a troll now. The notion that I'm sponging off my husband like a lazy, worthless loser was a little too far. I think we're done.


I never said that. I said I don't believe in my money/your money within a marriage. I believe all income is shared marital money. That's all. I don't know where you got that other notion from. The quote was an old joke, not some aspersion cast at you.

Nonpayment of alimony or child support can have very dire consequences for the man. Yes, she would have to go to court to have him found in contempt, and I'd imagine that many women don't take that step. But at that point, wage garnishment and possible jail terms are on the table. Passports can be impounded. There are quite a few "deadbeat dad" laws out there.

How did I misread your sentiment that you don't believe in alimony? That you think it is welfare? I'm not trolling, I honestly want to know. I will admit that my response on that was a little snarky though.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Da fak? So I can just punch the broad and get out of paying? Man, I need a different attorney. He didn't tell me about that loophole.
> 
> As far as how much of a cash cow it is depends on the guy. To me it's insane when you have guys paying more than what most people (median income) make in a year. That's a cash cow, often times paid to a cow......_statistically speaking based on obesity rates in the US._


Well you can always just go kill her. There's another loophole, Adonis. (US obesity rates include men too, BTW)


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well you can always just go kill her. There's another loophole, Adonis. (US obesity rates include men too, BTW)


You have to admit, crazy thing to state as a fact especially when you accused the other brother of trolling.

Thanks, yes I admit as a person who goes to the gym all year instead of just January I'm definitely a minority. But hey what happen to the personal responsibility gimmick? Didn't take long to derail that train.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> You have to admit, crazy thing to state as a fact especially when you accused the other brother of trolling.
> 
> Thanks, yes I admit as a person who goes to the gym all year instead of just January I'm definitely a minority. But hey what happen to the personal responsibility gimmick? Didn't take long to derail that train.


This makes no sense.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Why does he need to make more money, when he is making enough for himself?
> 
> Men, without women, tend to only do what they need to do and not much more than that.
> Men can be happy with a single room apartment and a bean bag chair to sleep in.
> ...


Right, because no guys like to spend money on cars, motorcycles, boats, guns and all kinds of other hobbies.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Right, because no guys like to spend money on cars, motorcycles, boats, guns and all kinds of other hobbies.


Right. Hell at this point I don't know if I should go to the range or hock crappy boxes of 9mm for insane prices. #TULA


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Right, because no guys like to spend money on cars, motorcycles, boats, guns and all kinds of other hobbies.


If he wants a motorcycle, he'll earn enough to get one. My point is that single males don't make a conscious effort to earn enough to support a family. He will earn enough for himself and the lifestyle he wants.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> If he wants a motorcycle, he'll earn enough to get one. My point is that single males don't make a conscious effort to earn enough to support a family.


You seem to really be the king of generalization.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> If he wants a motorcycle, he'll earn enough to get one. My point is that single males don't make a conscious effort to earn enough to support a family.


I do always laugh at the whole "married men make more money" thing. There's a difference between making it and keeping it. Or making it and having it sucked into a black hole of expenses a guy wouldn't otherwise have.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You seem to really be the king of generalization.


Generalizations are generally true.
It keeps my life simple, which I like.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> Generalizations are generally true.
> It keeps my life simple, which I like.


I've had many single guys work for me. They were all busting their asses to make as much money as they could for whatever it was they were into. One in particular had a Porsche collection, Cayenne, Boxster and a Macan. Also had a crotch rocket. Another had thousands of dollars of RC helicopters and planes. All of them were driven to achieve. From my perspective your generalizations don't fit.

I have a son who is senior in college who is very motivated and we talk a lot about income and the freedom a good paying job can bring you with regard to doing things you enjoy. And you comments about boys not going to college. I know the overall percentages are down, but I don't think that is high school failing them. If anything it is the trend that you don't need a college education to get ahead in the world


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I've had many single guys work for me. They were all busting their asses to make as much money as they could for whatever it was they were into. One in particular had a Porsche collection, Cayenne, Boxster and a Macan. Also had a crotch rocket. Another had thousands of dollars of RC helicopters and planes. All of them were driven to achieve. From my perspective your generalizations don't fit.
> 
> I have a son who is senior in college who is very motivated and we talk a lot about income and the freedom a good paying job can bring you with regard to doing things you enjoy. And you comments about boys not going to college. I know the overall percentages are down, but I don't think that is high school failing them. If anything it is the trend that you don't need a college education to get ahead in the world


You underscore my point. They are earning money for themselves and their interests. How many of them are earning an income, in case they get married?
Most of them are not earning money to save up in case they end up married and have to include the priorities of the wife. Once they marry, if they marry, than their priorities change.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not necessarily saying either men or women are bad.
> 
> I’m saying none of us are saints and everyone can do some things that don’t get the Vatican’s stamp of approval at times.
> 
> Real life isn’t a fairy tale or Disney movie for either gender.


Hey, I'm a saint. Well, maybe not 🙄🙄🤣🤣.

Your post is spot on.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

manowar said:


> That may be but here's the real reason ---  Men pay for sex because they don't want the hassle of dealing with woman. Jumping thru her hoops, the protocol, and who knows what will happen. It's chancy if he wants sex. A woman can get sex pretty much when she wants but not with whom she wants. Escorts simply level the playing field where a guy can get guaranteed sex.
> 
> Ive gone on record that men in their 20s should not leave their sex lives up to the vagaries of 20 s/t women. These guys doing poorly on OLD, etc... should use escorts monthly imo. They will feel better, have great sex on occasion, increase their skills, confidence, and not be so fking thirsty.


Maybe not escorts, but definitely don't leave their love lives in the ha ds of women, blindly following all decisions make by the current female in their life.


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