# I Don't Know How to Have Sex



## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Not talking about the actual physical act, I’m fair to middling there. I mean I don’t know what to do to get someone interested in having sex with me. Speaking of my wife in this case, but looking back I can see that it’s been an issue in many past relationships.

I don’t know how to go from “sitting on the sofa watching tv” to “let’s have sex”. I pretty much go from 0 to sex in 2.3 seconds. I go from nothing to kissing and trying to make out. It doesn’t usually have the desired effect, which results in me feeling rejected, which makes me even more hesitant and self-conscious about trying in the future when I do, so that when I finally work up the nerve to try again it is usually just as awkward if not more so and results in more rejection.

I don’t know how to work up to it. I feel like I don’t have a chance to gradually escalate the level of touching and affection because we spend most of our evenings sitting on the sofa on opposite sides, with her leaning against the far sofa arm with her feet and legs between us (“because it’s comfortable” she says). Sometimes I catch her in passing and I’ll try and be affectionate, hug her kiss her, but I always get the feeling like she’s not interested at that time. This also makes me not want to even try in the first place.

I don’t do dirty or seductive talk, don’t know how to do it and feel completely ridiculous when I try (and it shows). Other than coming out and saying “hey, can we have sex”, which makes me feel pathetic, like I’m begging, what else can I do?

Or am I overlooking or ignoring signs that she just isn’t interested in me in that way?

(For the record, I usually manage to take a shot at the right time about once every month or two; that’s our sexual frequency)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, this is actually a great topic as I have found myself in fairly similar situations where I can even go from screaming at the kids to having sex in about 0.5 seconds, and interrupt sex to scream at the kids some more through the wall and continue back to having sex without missing a beat. 

...women, not so much. 

#1 JUST LISTEN!
#2 If you are listening to something that you know stresses them out, CHANGE THE TOPIC!
#3 Gradually get naked while you are listening to her and get very close.
#4 While she is talking, allow your erect penis to be placed against her, but insist you are NOT in the mood that you have no idea why it is erect.
#5 Wait and eventually she will touch your penis to start playing with you.
#6 Claim that your penis is just NOT in the mood, but tell her she is free to try and play with it if she wants, but be sure to verbally respond in an aroused way as she touches it. 
#7 Tell her that no matter how much she wants you to that you will NOT touch her breasts and it is best that she keeps her shirt on, but don't worry, they will be in your face two seconds later!
#8 Start telling your wife that she is being a bad girl and that you are going to have to punish her if she does not stop! 

That should work, but you just have to be playful and mix foreplay up a little.

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> I don’t know how to work up to it. I feel like I don’t have a chance to gradually escalate the level of touching and affection because we spend most of our evenings sitting on the sofa on opposite sides, with her leaning against the far sofa arm with her feet and legs between us (“because it’s comfortable” she says).


Prime opportunity for a foot rub! 

Just sayin'


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Woman here.

It's all about foreplay, OUTSIDE the bedroom.

Palm her a$$ while you are cooking. Come up behind her and nuzzle and kiss her neck while she is standing at the sink or stove. Start by giving a shoulder, calf or foot massage while you are watching a movie. Send her sexy texts throughout the day. None of this, "How is your day going?" beta stuff. More like, "I want to undress you, piece by piece, tonight." Kiss or nibble on her ear, with no expectation that SEX IS NEXT!! Rub her thigh, pull her close on the couch, with NO EXPECTATION OF SEX. Just because.

Quit this 0-50mph in two seconds flat stuff. VERY unattractive.

Or just be like my SO. Stand up, take her hand, and lead her into the bedroom. And SHOW her (in no uncertain terms) what you want .

It's a slow, steady buildup. The idea is to have HER ripping YOUR clothes off.

(P.S. If she's distancing herself on the couch and not responding to any of your cues, perhaps she isn't the right one for you?)


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## SARAHMCD (Jul 2, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> I don’t know how to work up to it. I feel like I don’t have a chance to gradually escalate the level of touching and affection because we spend most of our evenings sitting on the sofa on opposite sides, with her leaning against the far sofa arm with her feet and legs between us (“because it’s comfortable” she says).


Say "why don't you move closer?" with a sexy grin. Encourage her to snuggle with you and go in for the kiss. And I also agree with the foot/leg rub. Will get her relaxed (assuming she likes it) and primed for the possibility of something more. A lot of solid eye contact lets me know what's on a guy's mind. As well as if his eyes drift to other areas and back again. 
Also, you may not be good at sexy/dirty talk but you can certainly tell her she looks really nice today, you really like that dress, whatever compliments you can come up with. Goes a long way.


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## SARAHMCD (Jul 2, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Woman here.
> 
> It's all about foreplay, OUTSIDE the bedroom.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of the above....I just didn't get the impression the OP is aggressive enough for a lot of these moves. But he certainly could (and probably should) learn to be.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

How long married? Kids?

It obviously wasn't like this when dating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Very good suggestions here, but I think that you need to resolve the communication and resentment problems in your relationship. A quote by you from a previous thread:

"What is the biggest problem in your relationship?
Control, power, who gets to make decisions. At least it's my biggest problem. Probably not a problem for her since she always ends up getting her way because I don't have the will to push for the things I want. I care more about her feelings and about maintaining tranquility than I do about getting my way."

Your wife may not respect you as a passive-aggressive person who does not deal directly with issues.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I just want to add... OP, you really need to operate outside your normal "comfort zone" and get a bit risky.

My sexy Alpha SO is just as likely to send me a text that says, "I want to make passionate love to you tonight" (sweet and endearing) as he is one that says "I want to **** your brains out tonight" (hot, Hot, HOT!!) 

Get comfortable with ALL aspects of your sexuality. There's a time and place for sweet lovemaking, but there's also a time and place for animal instincts!

Figure it out.

If she is not receptive to either of these, she is not the one.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

@happy as a clam pretty much sums it up. Sex often is a slow buildup...it's called foreplay or seduction. Try being assertive...walk up to her, put your arm around her waist and pull her to you. Bury your face in her hair, smell her, tell her how much you love her scent. Taste her neck with your lips and tongue (my wife gets all "tingly" when I breath softly, but heavily in her ear and gently kiss it repeatedly), let your hands explore her while you kiss her, then....take her hand, look her in the eyes and say..."Come with me." and lead her to the bedroom. Take charge of the situation. Be assertive, but not aggressive. Pay close attention about what you're doing that perhaps garners a positive response and focus on those.

Just some food for thought my friend. Good luck.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> I just want to add... OP, you really need to operate outside your normal "comfort zone" and get a bit risky.


:iagree:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I usually take a shower and sit on the bed naked with a huge boner.
Typically she gets the message.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> Speaking of my wife in this case, but looking back I can see that it’s been an issue in many past relationships.
> 
> I don’t know how to go from “sitting on the sofa watching tv” to “let’s have sex”. I pretty much go from 0 to sex in 2.3 seconds. I go from nothing to kissing and trying to make out. It doesn’t usually have the desired effect, which results in me feeling rejected, which makes me even more hesitant and self-conscious about trying in the future when I do, so that when I finally work up the nerve to try again it is usually just as awkward if not more so and results in more rejection.


What did you do before you were married? How did you get your wife to sleep with you in the first place? How after marriage are you still not sure how to turn on your wife? How do you fear rejection from your wife? Who else is she going to bang, she's married to you!

Very strange.... You seem very timid. Next time your sitting on the couch watching Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune or whatever. Just whip it out, fully aroused. When she asks you, "what you are doing" just say your, "getting comfortable, why you in on this?" Compliment her, tell her how much you want to be inside her right now, etc. etc.

You need to become more sexually aggressive, never mind all that BS you were taught to not talk dirty and be proper to women. It's GARBAGE and it doesn't work. Woman WANT a man who will take them at will and make them feel like women. Not a whiny guy who asks for permission, with a cherry on top, to sleep with his WIFE.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I also have fun with innuendos during the day! Say for example it is time to give the cat her flea and tick medicine, part of that process involves bathing the cat. I'll go to my wife and say the following:


_You know how much the p***y hates to get a bath! Do you have any suggestions for what a man should do while handling a very angry p***y that is dripping wet?​_

Then my wife will respond with some usual good advice about how being very firm and assertive, while at the same time being careful not to hurt the p***y, will likely prevent me from getting all scratched up. 

If you have trouble with innuendos in your house, then just get a cat!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Very strange.... You seem very timid.





BetrayedDad said:


> Next time your sitting on the couch watching Jeopardy or Wheel of Fortune or whatever. Just whip it out, fully aroused. When she asks you, "what you are doing" just say your, "getting comfortable, why you in on this?" Compliment her, tell her how much you want to be inside her right now, etc. etc.


Yep! Or just do like my sexy Alpha SO... reach over and place her hand on your fully alert package. UNDER your sweat pants!  (gets me every time!!) lol...



BetrayedDad said:


> *You need to become more sexually aggressive, never mind all that BS you were taught to not talk dirty and be proper to women.* It's GARBAGE and it doesn't work. Woman WANT a man who will take them at will and make them feel like women. Not a whiny guy who asks for permission, with a cherry on top, to sleep with his WIFE.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

In my "real" life... (day job, tutoring kids, substitute teacher, the perfect neighbor, "nice" PTA mom) no one would EVER suspect the sexy-dirtiness my lover dreams up at night between the sheets...

LOL... (A bit tongue in cheek, but mostly true! )


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> How long married? Kids?
> 
> It obviously wasn't like this when dating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Together 16 years, no kids.

It wasn't a whole lot different back then, I think I was just much younger and didn't realize it was ok to be upset about it. I think I bought into the line of thinking that being preoccupied with and placing too much emphasis on sex was shallow. By the time I realized it was just as important as anything else we were already in our current routine. Inertia is a powerful thing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Hopefully through experience and observation, if not communication, you can find her turn ons.

I'm still finding out what fires up Mrs. Conan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

I also don't know if I even have it in me to be aggressive, or even assertive. Which is what has kept me here so long, I think the problem is a good bit mine and I wouldn't do much better with anyone else.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Most of the problems I see other men have with this is they start way to late into the for play. If I want sex that night start with getting her all revved up in the morning. Kissing, caressing, telling her what Youre going to do to her. Then throughout the day keep it up with texts and more of what you're going to do. At night then back rub and whatever but by this point she will be ready to go.

Best analogy I ever heard and never will forget.... Men are like microwaves we are just designed to go. Women more like ovens and need to preheat. So don't preheat when you want to go .......you start that in the beginning of the day!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> ...tongue in cheek...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Best analogy I ever heard and never will forget.... Men are like microwaves we are just designed to go. Women more like ovens and need to preheat. So don't preheat when you want to go .......you start that in the beginning of the day!


Sometimes my wife will look at me and say she is not in the mood whatsoever. I then look back at her and say, "Don't worry, I can work with that!"

Although it can be like a situation in one of those survival movies where the guy is trying to make a fire by rubbing two sticks together. If you can learn the techniques to make it happen, it can be very exciting!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
It depends a lot on what the other person wants. There are women who want to be picked up and bodily carried off to bed. There are (probably more) women who want love notes, touches, random kisses all day. 

My wife enjoys sitting together on the sofa, little kisses, back and foot rubs etc - but for her there is a sudden dividing-line between non-sexual and sexual attention. When she wants sex (not all that often) she wants to quickly go from the casual intimacy to overt sexual activity.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Joey--has your wife ever initiated? If so, how does she do it?


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Joey--has your wife ever initiated? If so, how does she do it?


Not once in 16 years that I can remember


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> Not once in 16 years that I can remember


Keep in mind that it could be that you are *not* recognizing her attempts at initiating sex. 

You know that painting that she purchased to make the house look nice that she asked you to hang on the wall? She got that because she gets all worked up watching you do super masculine stuff around the house and she planned to strip naked while you were working and yank you down from the ladder and ravage you! ....today that painting has been sitting on the floor for almost a year now and serves as a reminder for her that her attempts to be aggressive with you don't seem to work.

Or, you remember when she was cloths shopping the other day and tried to get you to buy some boxers instead of your old tighty ****** underwear with fart holes blown out in the back and with skid marks? You looked at her and said, "nah it feels weird if my balls are dangling everywhere, I like for them to have some support!"

....just say'n
Badsanta


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Woman here.
> 
> It's all about foreplay, OUTSIDE the bedroom.
> 
> ...


YES! :allhail:


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

My husband is bad at this. He tries to go form 0 to 60 instantly, with no build up.

It's NOT sexy, and NOT fun.

YOU need to work on this. Happy As a Clam gave some wonderful suggestions. 

I'm still struggling with this with my husband. He texted me today and asked, "Are you still drippy?" (period) To which I replied "no." "Good, then maybe we can do it tonight." That was his effort at initiating, and believe it or not that is progress.  

Warm your wife up, seduce her, then take charge and be assertive! No more whining, asking, or being shy.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

TheCuriousWife said:


> Warm your wife up, seduce her, then take charge and be assertive! No more whining, asking, or being shy.


Easier said than done. I've tried that in the past, and I feel even stupider when I get shut down, which is why I can hardly bring my self to make the attempt any more.

EDIT-But yeah, some of HaaC's ideas did resonate


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> Easier said than done. I've tried that in the past, and I feel even stupider when I get shut down, which is why I can hardly bring my self to make the attempt any more.
> 
> EDIT-But yeah, some of HaaC's ideas did resonate


I know it's hard. I get shy sexually too. Especially after being rejected and/or shut down in the past. 

But it's really what is needed if you ever want to be the sexy man that your wife would want and crave.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Unless Joey's wife is like CW (ie: naturally HD), then a lot of the suggestions aren't going to work on her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> I feel even stupider when I get shut down, which is why I can hardly bring my self to make the attempt any more.


Look, if you get shot down you have to take it as a sh!t test! Women want men that are super confident!

The next time she shoots you down, tell her that you have this awkward thing where being rejected makes you SUPER HORNY and that she needs to stop it because you actually just need to be held and feel loved and not some sex object! 

...then if she rejects you again, it is now part of foreplay and you can tell her, "OMG, tell me there is NO WAY TONIGHT" and then start grinding yourself onto the edge of the couch. If she bites and actually says NO WAY, then breath a sigh of relief and tell her THANKS that you are all finished now....

My point being, BE SO CONFIDENT that it is humorous and the next thing you know, she will be playful right back at you!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

This past Saturday, my wife and I washed all the windows in the house. We have the double hung windows that you can tilt in so that you can wash both the inside and outside panes. When we wash windows, it's a 2 person job where I wash the screens while she's washing the sills with soap and water and scrubbing the all around the opening and then we have to windex the glass on the inside and outside. We did all of this together for 4 hours. I end up having to hold both the upper and lower windows when we tilt them inside. For most of the windows, she ends up getting on a small step ladder and she's leaning on me and I was able to steal a few kisses from her as she's washing. She was a little shy about it but most of the time she just wanted to concentrate on the task. Plus throughout the day we're talking about various subjects, joking around and I'm throwing out some cool puns and sexual innuendos. Anyways, we get done and after a short while, we are laying in bed together. We're cuddling and she's resting her head on my shoulder. We almost fell asleep, but I was caressing her while I was somewhat drifting off. After awhile, I noticed that she was receptive to my caressing as my hands moved all over her body and towards various erogenous zones on her body. Eventually she starts kissing me and before you know it we were having a very intense make-out session and then we has great sex. Only used 2 positions for PIV, but still pretty awesome.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Unless Joey's wife is like CW (ie: naturally HD), then a lot of the suggestions aren't going to work on her.


Actually I would take it a step further.... not HD but interested in sex and sex with him??? A person does not have to be HD to want to have sex with their partner, they have to be loving, open to sharing and want happiness for both of them.

So maybe it is time to cut the games, the bull**** and just ask her if she is interested in an intimate relationship with you OP. Tell you all the things you want to do but are too afraid of rejection. Stop mucking around, man up and just tell her what you want.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I've always been a big fan of the buildup approach, complimenting her all day long on such things as the visual appealing contours of her sexy looking body, her hair, her eyes; and habitually coming up from behind her to plant warm, subtle kisses on the nape of her neck. I'm a huge neck-nape addict!

If nothing has transpired in the course of my compliments and kisses, then, at bedtime, I'm certainly not adverse to stripping off and laying naked under the sheets waiting for her to pull the covers back and discover her awaiting gift!

Another sexy trick to pull, is simply to awaken her by simply going down underneath the covers early in the wee hours of the morning while she is still sleeping and awaken her with oral sex, keeping in mind that if she's not totally expecting it, doing that could get you kicked you in the head, sort of like coming upon an unsuspecting jackass from behind!

But the few times that I've actually been kicked in such a manner, it usually follows with vicious laughter, a mild admonition and apology, then followed up by vestiges of wild and scintillating monkey sex! 

Whatever it is that you choose to do, just try to insure that the two of you have fun doing it! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

News flash!
Joey, she's keeping you around because you provide her with "other" necessities.
She's not going to be interested in pleasing you because you have already demonstrated it's not required.
Been there.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

hookares said:


> News flash!
> Joey, she's keeping you around because you provide her with "other" necessities.
> She's not going to be interested in pleasing you because you have already demonstrated it's not required.
> Been there.


I'm afraid I'm pretty much leaning toward this way of thinking as well. But as I said in the OP, it's not just a problem in this relationship. I'm doing (or not doing) something that makes women lose interest in me sexually.

I don't think I have it in me to be sexually aggressive or assertive. I'm too fearful of rejection and my natural inclination is not to try anything without some kind of indication that she is interested. This rarely happens, so I'm stuck taking shots in the dark, which usually come out tentative and half-ass and almost never work out.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> I'm afraid I'm pretty much leaning toward this way of thinking as well. But as I said in the OP, it's not just a problem in this relationship. I'm doing (or not doing) something that makes women lose interest in me sexually.
> 
> I don't think I have it in me to be sexually aggressive or assertive. I'm too fearful of rejection and my natural inclination is not to try anything without some kind of indication that she is interested. This rarely happens, so I'm stuck taking shots in the dark, which usually come out tentative and half-ass and almost never work out.


So you have had problems your whole life with this, with every woman you have been with? Or is this after feeling rejected from your wife?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

The problem as a lot of the posters have pointed out is that every woman is different and what works with one woman won't work on another.

As I have learned myself with different women, one simple idea, technique or approach just doesn't work.

Learn to be yourself and ignore what Don Juan did. 
Learn to relax, take pressure off yourself, learn who you are (sexually, romantically, psychologically) and who your wife is (sexually, romantically, psychologically)
and go with it naturally.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> Easier said than done. I've tried that in the past, and I feel even stupider when I get shut down, which is why I can hardly bring my self to make the attempt any more.


This sounds like "learned helplessness", which is a very real thing.

Do you know if your wife has a history of child sex abuse? Did she grow up in a very strict or religious family where sex was considered dirty or bad? What was her pre-marital history with sex?

Have you read the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover? He does have some good information about how to approach sex with a wife. You may have some distorted ideas about sex, and you may be linking sex to covert contracts.

Stop appearing to ask for permission to do things. Don't even tell her when you are going to do things, because it can come across as a kid asking mommy for permission. For example, I realized that on Saturday mornings I'd watch something on tv and then tell her I was going up to take a shower. The subtext to this in her mind was I was looking for her approval.

Stop asking her for her opinion or agreement. Just tell her what you want to do. For example, don't ask if she wants to go out for dinner, and don't ask her if she wants to go to Outback. Just tell her you want to take her out to Outback for dinner tonight. If she doesn't want to, she can speak up and then you can negotiate with her.

Same with sex. Don't ask for sex, tell her you want to have sex with her. If she isn't interested she can speak up.

Be more selfish with sex. Take the emphasis off of her. She may feel pressured to have an O, and that you are watching her. Be a bit more animalistic and spontaneous. Take what you want. If you're a Nice Guy you are too passive and thoughtful in bed!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

:iagree:

Thor's words are GOLD.

Stop apologizing, stop second-guessing, make your wishes and desires KNOWN, and if that doesnt' work... then this relationship is over.

Personally if I were you I would find a GOOD sex therapist who can help you overcome your low self-esteem, lack of confidence in bed, timidity when it comes to "bedding YOUR woman."

When patterns repeat over and over as they have throughout all of your sexual relationships it's time to step back and ask yourself, "What is the common denominator here?" (I hope I don't have to answer that question for you )

Joey, maybe it's time to be alone for awhile and work on these issues... ?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Joey, how affectionate are you? Are you comfortable grabbing her hand and just holding it? Do you kiss her gently, or do you dive down her throat?

Nonsexual affection is important. Becoming comfortable with initiating nonsexual affection on a regular, daily, basis will help you become more comfortable with sexual affection as has been discussed in this thread.

Also, you suggested that you prefer things to be tranquil and you don't like arguments. Please understand that when a man is avoidant about conflict he comes off as being a pvssy, not a tranquil guy, but a wimpy guy. So as you bend over backwards to keep a tranquil relationship the message you're really sending out is " kick me because I won't get mad." Don't kid yourself, this isn't about you wanting a tranquil environment, this is about you avoiding. If your wife is like me, she find it very hard to respect a man with no boundaries who avoids confrontation. And if you don't respect him, you're not too attracted to him, which means you don't want to have sex with him. But you probably already know this don't you?


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Joey, how affectionate are you? Are you comfortable grabbing her hand and just holding it? Do you kiss her gently, or do you dive down her throat?
> 
> Nonsexual affection is important. Becoming comfortable with initiating nonsexual affection on a regular, daily, basis will help you become more comfortable with sexual affection as has been discussed in this thread.


I have no problem there. It's getting from hand holding to sex that's the problem.

That's actually how I do things, little affectionate gestures to gauge her interest. If she acts like she enjoys what I'm doing, I'll escalate to something more intense. If she acts indifferent or like she's not enjoying it, I drop it. 



> Also, you suggested that you prefer things to be tranquil and you don't like arguments. Please understand that when a man is avoidant about conflict he comes off as being a pvssy, not a tranquil guy, but a wimpy guy. So as you bend over backwards to keep a tranquil relationship the message you're really sending out is " kick me because I won't get mad." Don't kid yourself, this isn't about you wanting a tranquil environment, this is about you avoiding. If your wife is like me, she find it very hard to respect a man with no boundaries who avoids confrontation. And if you don't respect him, you're not too attracted to him, which means you don't want to have sex with him. But you probably already know this don't you?


Women want a man who isn't afraid to stand up to them and argue with them. I want a women I don't need to stand up to and argue with.

Strangely, I don't have this problem with others. I just don't know how to disagree and argue with someone whose feelings I care about. I know that in the end only one of us will get their way. If it's me, I'll feel like an a-hole. If it's her, I'll feel like a pushover. Not much of a choice.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> I have no problem there. It's getting from hand holding to sex that's the problem.
> 
> *That's actually how I do things, little affectionate gestures to gauge her interest. If she acts like she enjoys what I'm doing, I'll escalate to something more intense. If she acts indifferent or like she's not enjoying it, I drop it.
> 
> ...


If every time you hold her hand you try to escalate it, she probably feels like you only hold her hand to initiate sex. Just hold her hand for it's own sake sometimes. Do it when it can't lead to sex. Do it when you're grocery shopping. Show her you're proud to be with her.

As an HD person it can be hard to not come off like you're always wanting sex, because we ARE always wanting sex. :grin2: But you have to show her that even though you always want it it's not ALL you want.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Again I recommend the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. R. Glover. He covers this precise topic.

Also, you might enjoy reading "The Way of the Superior Man" by Deida. There is disagreement about the book's value. I found 50% of it excellent, primarily the parts describing the female mind. This part I think you would get a lot out of. The other half just didn't click with me, and I know it wouldn't work with my wife (a child sex abuse victim). Things like pinning her up against the wall and holding her until she calms down? That would not work with a CSA victim!!! Anyhow, I think you should read Superior Man.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Thor said:


> Also, you might enjoy reading "The Way of the Superior Man" by Deida. There is disagreement about the book's value. .


Isn't he the guy who recommends not ejaculating during sex?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> Isn't he the guy who recommends not ejaculating during sex?


I think he promotes in-jaculation. Some of his stuff is too new-wave and out there for me. I think his description of female psychology is good.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I think you need to stop looking at her reactions so much. Sure, I get that you don't want to make her feel uncomfortable, but you're way too invested in her. Far too hypervigilant. She is a mere mortal like you.

What do _you_ want to do? What does your sexual drive tell you to do? Do you want to take her in your arms and mack on her? Do it. Do you want to control her in the bedroom from time to time? Do it. Do you want to motorboat her rack? Do it.

Take control. Do to her what you want. (Obligatory disclaimer: obviously if it makes your wife uncomfortable, stop.) Hopefully you get my gist.

You're too cautious. I think in this case, you should do what your little head tells you to do.:smile2:


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> I think you need to stop looking at her reactions so much. Sure, I get that you don't want to make her feel uncomfortable, but you're way too invested in her. Far too hypervigilant. She is a mere mortal like you.
> 
> What do _you_ want to do? What does your sexual drive tell you to do? Do you want to take her in your arms and mack on her? Do it. Do you want to control her in the bedroom from time to time? Do it. Do you want to motorboat her rack? Do it.
> 
> ...


How can I not worry about her reaction? She has just as much say in the matter as I do. 

I cannot and will not do anything (to her) without her approval or consent.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> How can I not worry about her reaction? She has just as much say in the matter as I do.
> 
> I cannot and will not do anything (to her) without her approval or consent.


Okey dokey. Clearly you aren't understanding where I'm coming from. 

I wish you the best and good luck!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> I have no problem there. It's getting from hand holding to sex that's the problem.
> 
> That's actually how I do things, little affectionate gestures to gauge her interest. If she acts like she enjoys what I'm doing, I'll escalate to something more intense. If she acts indifferent or like she's not enjoying it, I drop it.
> 
> ...


As has already been suggested, be watchful that you give nonsexual affection daily while only sometimes escalating to sex initiation.

I'd suggest you try talking with your wife about ways she wants you to initiate and tell you if some things you do might be turning her off.

My husband used to initiate very passively and that was a turn off for me. We talked and I explained how I do like to be "groomed" and for the most part he avoids the passive approach.

My husband is always "taking my temperature" and I kind of resent it. It makes me feel like I'm some volcanic personality who will attack at the first sign of disagreement, and I am not. I have strong opinions, but I do not have to have the last word, or be right, or have things my way. So when he acquiesces about everything, I then have to second guess wondering if he actually wanted something else and just went along to avoid conflict. This angers me. He is an adult so he needs to be able to speak up and NOT passively make me guess about how he really feels. He is the CLASSIC nice guy. He has read the book and is getting so so so much better. I LIKE it when he stand up to me! Now I don't have to second guess because he will tell me.

There are grey areas between being an Ahole and being a pushover. I laughed when you said you wanted a woman you didn't need to stand up to and argue with. Oh really? Joey joey joey joey... LOL, I'm not sure that's even possible. :laugh:


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I laughed when you said you wanted a woman you didn't need to stand up to and argue with. Oh really? Joey joey joey joey... LOL, I'm not sure that's even possible. :laugh:


Please.

The cemetery is full of them.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I laughed when you said you wanted a woman you didn't need to stand up to and argue with. Oh really? Joey joey joey joey... LOL, I'm not sure that's even possible. :laugh:


I wasn't joking. Why would I want to be with someone who made my life more difficult and less enjoyable? Why wouldn't I want to be with someone who was agreeable and did their best to get along with me?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Read the books, you'll understand it is a game.

No More Mr. Nice Guy
The Way of the Superior Man
Married Man's Sex Life Primer


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Joey2k said:


> I wasn't joking. Why would I want to be with someone who made my life more difficult and less enjoyable? Why wouldn't I want to be with someone who was agreeable and did their best to get along with me?


Joey, even in the best relationships there is conflict. People in love do tend to try to be agreeable and don't seek conflict for conflicts sake but conflict happens. Where to go for dinner, what movie to watch, who makes the bed, the volume of the TV, who holds the remote control, do we have to watch baseball again, MONEY, KIDS, INLAWS, HOLIDAYS, sleep with the lights on or off... Conflict. You have to work through it by...speaking what it is that you want while the other person speaks what they want and then you compromise or negotiate.

Being agreeable is nice, but too much of it is damned annoying!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> I don't think I have it in me to be sexually aggressive or assertive. I'm too fearful of rejection and my natural inclination is not to try anything without some kind of indication that she is interested. This rarely happens, so I'm stuck taking shots in the dark, which usually come out tentative and half-ass and almost never work out.


So...really think about this.

You need a sign that she's interested.

You see no sign.

So you take shots in the dark, which are half-ass and don't work out well.

But you won't try the one thing many here have suggested...to be more assertive. That's what you are missing, and that's what would be more likely to work, but you won't try. Even though what you are doing isn't working and you know it. You say you are too afraid of rejection to try it...yet you are rejected for sure on your half-assed attempts.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> So...really think about this.
> 
> You need a sign that she's interested.
> 
> ...


So I just need to be more assertive...

And if I want to bench 300 lbs, I just need to be stronger, right? And if I want to run a 5 minute mile, just stop running so slow, that's all there is to it?

You can't just tell someone to be more assertive and POOF it happens. You can't just decide to be more assertive and you instantly are.

And if you're not used to it, on your first attempts you probably won't be very good at it and it will not work or backfire, which could easily make you even more gun shy about "stepping up" in the future.

EDIT-Before you tell me I'm a complete downer, I have decided to give the book a shot ("No More Mr Nice Guy", not "The Way of the Superior Man"; I skimmed the latter and it was too far out there for me)


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## Blaine (Jul 23, 2015)

Joey maybe i can summarize? Some times women want to be romanced sometimes they want to be taken if you can tune into her you may be able to read which one she wants at that time. And if you play poker you may be familiar with the term a "tell"? If you do the same thing every time you want to have sex she will read you and cut you off at the pass. Sometimes you have to do what she doesnt expect.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

Blaine said:


> Joey maybe i can summarize? Some times women want to be romanced sometimes they want to be taken if you can tune into her you may be able to read which one she wants at that time.


I'm afraid I am not that perceptive 



> And if you play poker you may be familiar with the term a "tell"? If you do the same thing every time you want to have sex she will read you and cut you off at the pass. Sometimes you have to do what she doesnt expect.


This, however...is worth pondering, and may be something I can work with.


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## Blaine (Jul 23, 2015)

Most men arent so thats no biggy. but look at it this way even if you guess and you're right only 50% of the time that will be better than your average now.


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

You have received extremely good advice on this post but nothing is going to change if you remain this reserve and timid. If you want to improve how she respond to you. you have to start applying the advice given to you. In a marriage, you should be able to be open about your fears ,insecurities and not be afraid to look foolish to your spouse. That is one of the greatest joy in being married , that I could truly be me warts and all and feel accepted either way.

Talk to her about your sex life. If you're feeling unfulfilled in that area, I bet she is also. Married 16 years and she hasn't ever initiated, she's repressed. Have you ever talked to her about how's the sex is for her. Is she even having orgasm. For me, I wasn't even aware I wasn't having them but felt that the way people was talking about sex that I was missing something. It took throwing out all of societies notion that masturbation is wrong for me to find out about my own body and learn what is enjoyable during sex with my husband. So, open the lines of communications with her. If you don't try for better, you'll never get it.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

I wasn’t sure whether to put this here or start a new thread. I think it makes a suitable bookend to my OP, so here it is.

I’ve read the replies and other relevant threads and have had time to take an honest look at my situation, and I realize much of my failure is my fault. I don’t have it in me to be sexually assertive, confident, to “take” a woman alpha-style. I just can’t bring myself to do it. There are a couple of reasons for that which I can identify.

-I feel stupid and uncomfortable being overtly sexual, and I think and fear that awkwardness comes across when/if I make the attempt, resulting in the opposite effect of what I intended (the woman is either turned off or amused rather than turned on).

-Due to my lack of skill in this area, I have been rejected a lot in the past. Because of this, my experience tells me that it is much more likely that I will be rejected than not, and a tentative, baby-step approach is easier to back away from if it doesn’t go well, and thus hurts less and is less humiliating than if I really put myself out there and make a bold, decisive gesture and still get shot down.

Consequently, my sexuality is very timid, half-hearted, wishy-washy, and weak. And if there is one thing I have learned from this and other relationship boards and sites, this approach is almost universally guaranteed to turn women off. So I continue to lose at the game.

But the game is rigged. All the burden is on the man’s shoulders. The woman bears none of the responsibility, she just has to sit back and wait for the man to jump through the right hoops and “man” up, or fail to do so, at which point the blame for that failure is placed squarely on him for not being able to bring out her desire.

It’s a game I don’t think I want to play anymore, but I’m not sure the best (and least painful) way to move forward. Would I be better off being single, and not having to put effort into a relationship that is ultimately going to be unsatisfying? Is it better to remain in a relationship that is pleasant, even loving, but lacking in intimacy? I have doubts about whether the dynamic with me and my wife can be changed at this point after so much time in our current pattern. As far as talking to her about it (which I have done many times), I suspect that only further confirms that I am not man enough to make her want me, and the very act of talking about the problem makes the problem worse. I also don’t think I’d do any better in a relationship with anyone else, since most of my problem is apparently self-inflicted. 

Sounds like a big pity party, which I guess it is kind of. But it’s also the first time I think I’ve ever been honest about it rather than blaming her for not being available or more affectionate. So that’s good at least.

So that this post isn’t a complete downer, I’ll end by saying I have ordered No More Mr. Nice Guy and will be giving it a read, but I’m fearful that the book is going to tell me I need to be someone I can’t or don’t want to be. 

Maybe I’ll post an update when I’m done with it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> But the game is rigged. All the burden is on the man’s shoulders. The woman bears none of the responsibility, she just has to sit back and wait for the man to jump through the right hoops and “man” up, or fail to do so, at which point the blame for that failure is placed squarely on him for not being able to bring out her desire.
> 
> It’s a game I don’t think I want to play anymore, but I’m not sure the best (and least painful) way to move forward. Would I be better off being single, and not having to put effort into a relationship that is ultimately going to be unsatisfying? Is it better to remain in a relationship that is pleasant, even loving, but lacking in intimacy? I have doubts about whether the dynamic with me and my wife can be changed at this point after so much time in our current pattern. As far as talking to her about it (which I have done many times), I suspect that only further confirms that I am not man enough to make her want me, and the very act of talking about the problem makes the problem worse. I also don’t think I’d do any better in a relationship with anyone else, since most of my problem is apparently self-inflicted.
> 
> Sounds like a big pity party, which I guess it is kind of. But it’s also the first time I think I’ve ever been honest about it rather than blaming her for not being available or more affectionate. So that’s good at least.


This is one reason why I find the one-sided and endless "alpha up" advice on this forum so problematic. It essentially says to men that there is only one way to turn your woman on, and only one way to be, otherwise you are destined to be a failure in all things sexual. What a terrible message to send!

It is good to look at yourself to see what you might be doing to actively turn off your wife, but please realize that there are many ways that a man can turn a woman on. It isn't all chest-thumping alpha nonsense. I don't know your wife, and so can't make any concrete suggstions, but instead of assuming that you've already failed, maybe revisit some of the suggestions littered through this thread and others. I started off with the foot rub suggestion -- which, I don't know if you know this, but if you have some skill in this, can be absolutely very good at bringing out a woman's sexual side.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

forget all the 'alpha/beta' stuff. be yourself, but just work on small things. don't become someone else. your wife married you for who your were and presumably still are.
just work on being more assertive. baby steps. not crazy supposed 'alpha' assertive (what ever the #[email protected]! that is), just try to be more assertive in your own way.
somewhere in your own basic personality, there must be some assertiveness. you sound like a real man, but a nice guy. and i don't mean that in a bad way, the way some people here talk about nice guys being bad.
and love your wife.


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