# First time poster looking for marriage advice



## RunningDad (Mar 14, 2013)

Hi!

I'm in my early 40's, a dad of two awesome kids and husband to a woman who was the love of my life...but now, I'm not so sure. 

About me:
I'm active, make a decent living (as does she), love spending time with my kids, and have a wonderful relationship with my in-laws and "that" side of the family. I married late (35) because I came from a divorced parents and promised myself I'd wait until I found the "right" person so I wouldn't get divorced. I am 7 years older than my wife. My parents were fairly strict by today's standards, but we always had a fun as a family, goofing around and whatnot. I am a pretty good communicator (for a guy anyway) and feel I am pretty balanced and willing to see the "other side" of most situations. I am pretty easy going as a person, until the point where I feel I am being steam-rolled or bullied.

About her: 
In her late 30's, has a great job (makes just shy of what I do), has a great relationship with our kids, and overall is a great mom--although I feel she errs towards the permissive side and would rather be a friend than a mom to our kids much of the time. She is charismatic, but self-admittedly is a horrible communicator--especially when it comes to any matters of the heart. She was also teased/bullied in high school and it's something she's never gotten over to this day. She has major difficulty admitting her own faults--whether it's about leaving the milk out, something she had said, or scratching the car. She tends to be self-centered and "wants what she wants" regardless of what might be best for the family, etc. Jokingly, she's admitted that everyone else in her life (friends, family coworkers) gets to see her at her "best"; I only get her "worst".

About us as a couple:
We've been married about 8 years. We've always had different mindsets when it came to many things, like finances (I'm want to at least have $10k in the bank in case of emergencies; she'd be perfectly happy spending every last dime if it meant a couple extra family vacations), but we've usually been able to reach some kind of compromise. Since having kids, our different upbringings have really caused a rift between us; she feels I am too strict, and I feel she is too inconsistent and doesn't do a good job of maintaining boundaries with our kids. The result is constant nagging and negativity from her, telling me "I'm doing it wrong" whatever "it" may be. 

Since becoming parents, our relationship has taken a bigger nose-dive, resulting in other issues surfacing between us. Kissing is non-existent, the only quality time we spend is sitting in front of the tv before I finally go to bed--wherein she stays up to have drinks talking with her girlfriends on the phone every night for several hours.

At times she has said she "doesn't have enough energy to be a full-time mom and a wife" which personally I feel is a crappy excuse and a cover-up for something else. I know the husband often has to take the "back seat" once kids come on-board, but this is ridiculous.

She doesn't (or can't) seem to appreciate anything I get her for Christmas or her birthday, always finding something wrong with it as a reason to return it--even if it's something she's asked for.

Our sex life basically only happens when she gets the "itch"; about every 4-8 weeks, and there's zero passion involved....purely "mechanical" in nature.

The obvious answer is "counseling" which we have done twice since being married; the first attempt it fizzled out because we both agreed the counselor was the wrong fit for us; the second attempt (about 6 years later) lasted about 6-8 sessions and ultimately fizzled out because she didn't like the things which the therapist was focusing on--namely 1.) she has control issues, 2.) that she compartmentalized everything and has yet to deal with any of her emotional problems dating back to childhood, and 3.) she was constantly over-validated by her father when she was young, leading to her using sex (since high school) as a replacement for that validation. She has no interest in trying to find another counselor.

All of this has resulted in us losing respect for one another; one of the "core" issues behind most if not all of our problems.

Right now, I've never felt more miserable or alone in my entire life. I still love her, and feel attraction to her, but not sure she feels the same...and asking her point blank is pointless because she hates discussing her feelings. We've gone on a few weekend trips "sans kids" in an attempt to re-connect; some have shown signs of hope, yet others ended in arguments. I'm scared of losing my kids and the ability to spend as much time with them as I do now, but fully recognize that their seeing us like this, even when we're not arguing, isn't healthy for them. She seems perfectly content with things staying this way indefinitely--making me think she's already "compartmentalized" me. This situation has been the primary thing on my mind for years now to the point where it's changed me (for the worst) as a person, my outlook on life, my attitude, etc. I really don't like who I've become as the result of this.

Is it hopeless? Is a trial separation my only option as a "next step"? 

Other than this "small" problem, I feel like I have the most wonderful, fulfilling life in the world.

Sorry for the long post.....

RunningDad


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You sound just like us about 4 years ago.

When your marriage sucks you have 4 choices
- cheat
- divorce
- do nothing
- work on it

You sound like you want to work on it right now. She doesn't. Until something changes, there isn't much that's going to happen I don't think.

I really really REALLY wish my husband had done something to wake me up before he cheated on me. He chose to cheat, I chose to do nothing. Today we're ridiculously happy, but we could have gotten here without him doing what he did. What that might have been, I am not sure. Perhaps told me that we either go to counseling or he's divorcing me? Maybe be far more insistent than he was that we work though some marriage building books? I do think he needed to let me know that I could lose him if I didn't smarten up. Knowing me it would have had to be something drastic.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

She says she doesn't have time to be a wife after being a mom and working full time. Is she doing all the household and child rearing chores or do you share? If not, perhaps there is a starting point to share the burden. If you already do that, then time to discuss why you have time and energy and she doesn't. 

She sounds somewhat critical, dissing presents and returning them. Besides family time with the kids do the two of you have quality time together. Sitting in front of the TV together is hardly quality unless you are adding value to that beyond just occupying the same space together staring at the TV.

Is she happy or just going through the motions? Doesn't sound like you are friends anymore. I'd start there - to repair that and focus on the lack of sexual intimacy later.


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## Dawn of Man (Feb 22, 2013)

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life

Learn it. Know it. Live it.


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## Kettlebells21 (Feb 7, 2013)

Haunting similarity in the gift-giving department! About a year ago I thought I'd take a crack at surprising my wife with one of those Road-ID (emergency contact info) things she could lace into her shoe. When it arrived and I showed it to her and explained what it was and how you could attach it to the shoe, etc, all I got in return was an "okay". That's it.

I think back to many times something similar happened, even back to the first few months after we'd met (been together 32 years now) when she made fun of a wrist corsage I'd bought her for a college formal. 

Holy shiyot.

I'm there with you, man. The loneliness, the confusion, the uncertainty, the depression, the 'I think I'm losiong my mind'.........my situation, too, has changed me as a person and I hate that. I hear ya. I see others have recommended reading material.......you may also find "No More Mr Nice Guy" to be of value in re-connecting with YOURself and YOUR needs and YOUR one shot at this life. It can be found online as a free .pdf download, or you can go legit and pay for it. I am working through it right now and it is opening my eyes bigtime -- mainly showing me that I've been in major denial about the quickness with which life passes and that this ain't no dress rehearsal, and that I've got MY life to live.

Best wishes to you -- I'm there, too. Very dark place, eh?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

RunningDad said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm in my early 40's, a dad of two awesome kids and husband to a woman who was the love of my life...but now, I'm not so sure.
> 
> ...


Some initial comments. Others will be here to help, no doubt.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Your wife seems like a very difficult person to be with. She hates to talk about feelings. She doesn't kiss any more. She used to use sex as validation but now you two don't have sex very often. She spends her free time with friends on the phone, but not with you. You've taken weekends away and they've not gone well.

I'm sorry to say this but it sounds like she has already checked out of this relationship and is sending just about every signal that she has no intention of coming back. She sounds like another woman I know, very dynamic and lively, powerful and successful... And has gone through husbands like crazy because no one can live with her! I don't understand how women like this get men to fall in love with them, must be the selfishness.. Men mistake that for something else until their eyes open.

So, you want to make this work, but I don't see how that can happen if she refuses to talk.

What exactly do you want in your marriage? What if you told her what you wanted, then gave her an ultimatum? She's already refused MC, she has refused to talk to you... What more can you possibly do?

Give her time to find her own place? Give her her freedom to be only a working mother so being a wife doesn't bog her down. Give her what she's asking for.


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Have you clearly and firmly expressed just how unhappy you are, how things are effecting you like you have here? Have you told her as much as you love her and want to keep your family together you are seriously doubting your ability to do so for much longer if the two of you arent actively seeking and working on solutions to your problems?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Sounds like the main theme she uses on you is "invalidation". You buy the wrong presents. Raise the kids wrong. Not worth having sex with. Not worth talking to. At the heart of it, yes, is control. Beating someone down like this is the invalidator exercising power over them. Why she has this much contempt for you is a good question. 

Ultimatum time. Counseling, yeah - if she will cooperate. If not, I think you understand where this is going.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Is it hopeless? Is a trial separation my only option as a "next step"? *



I think that a trial separation is one of the very few options you have left and probably the best option. If you do the separation make sure you do it right. *You have had several counselors so I would go back to them, as they know about your wife, and have them give you a detailed plan on separation if that is advised.* You will have to follow that plan exactly. It will be very hard on you but your current situation and your future with your wife will be a lot harder for a much longer time if you do not get a resolve.

*Your wife needs a tremendous shock in her life so that she has a chance at changing and allowing professional help*. She isn’t going to change without being really shaken up.

*You also need to get a plan for yourself* and that plan should include staying married to your wife if she changes and if she does not change preparing yourself as much as possible to separate from your wife for a very long time or permanently. You are miserable and it will not get any better without change in fact it probably will get worse.

Your children need two parents that are not miserable or two separated but at least one improved parent. In the event that you do not stay with your wife, your children can be OK with one improved parent. *Millions have done it and so can you.*
If you are a book reader I would suggest the book “Love Must Be Tough, HOPE for a marriage in crises by James Dobson, PhD, Child and family psychologist.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sounds like she's lazy as far as the relationship goes, just assumes you'll always be around whether she participates or not. Her indifference carries no ill-consequences for her. She has energy for what's important to her. If she can yak on the phone for hours, she has energy to take care of her husband. She just figures she's entitled to enjoy two paychecks and all other benefits of marriage, I suppose because she breathes. 
I think you need to be honest with her and very clearly tell her how unhappy you are and exactly what you need her to do. If she wants to argue, just tell her you aren't arguing, you merely gave her the courtesy of your honesty and she can either get serious about being married or she'll live alone. 
She doesn't like to be asked, probably because she doesn't even know why she feels and acts the way she does. I wouldn't bother asking her. It's really quite simple. She can do X and stay married or do Y and join the legions of struggling single mom's. The world won't blink at one more. Maybe she doesn't have time and energy to be married but the world is full of women who have both. There are no passengers in the canoe of marriage. She can pick up a paddle or get out of the boat.


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## RunningDad (Mar 14, 2013)

Maneo said:


> She says she doesn't have time to be a wife after being a mom and working full time. Is she doing all the household and child rearing chores or do you share? If not, perhaps there is a starting point to share the burden. If you already do that, then time to discuss why you have time and energy and she doesn't.
> 
> She sounds somewhat critical, dissing presents and returning them. Besides family time with the kids do the two of you have quality time together. Sitting in front of the TV together is hardly quality unless you are adding value to that beyond just occupying the same space together staring at the TV.
> 
> Is she happy or just going through the motions? Doesn't sound like you are friends anymore. I'd start there - to repair that and focus on the lack of sexual intimacy later.


Hi Maneo-

Thanks for your reply. Some really great observations...

To answer your questions, no--she's not doing all the householder chores herself. She tends not to like physical activity of most sorts; exercising, running around with the kids, and unfortunately most forms of housework. She will do laundry here and there; will vacuum occasionally, but the rest of the laundry, most of the house cleaning and anything outside of the house (yard, exterior, pool, wood pile, etc) is on me. She's also horrible at cleaning up after herself, and while I don't mind doing that for my 4 & 5 year old, it's kind of ridiculous having to do it for a 37 year old which just adds to the chaos. 

I'm a very involved dad. Even as infants, there was nothing I wouldn't do with or for the kids...and still isn't. I pick them up from school every day on my way home from work, play with them for a couple hours, feed/bathe them before my wife gets home (these are actually the times I fear losing the most if she and I split up). She has taken the lead with making their lunches and laying out clothes, but not because I wasn't doing them--just her personal preference I guess. She has become the de facto "go to guy" when the kids have a nightmare or don't feel like sleeping, but who would want to go to dad who has rules and won't let us sleep in bed with him every night, when mom lets us do whatever--including sleep in her bed. 

Quite honestly, when my wife travels (it's rare, but does happen) is when I have the very best times with my kids--inspite of the extra effort which falls on me. They know the rules and where their boundaries are; they know I don't put up with "not listening" or drama...and because of this, we spend all our time together having fun--no matter what it is we're doing. They absolutely amaze me every day by how wonderful, kind, confident and well behaved they are...unfortunately, the latter of which tends to disappear when my wife is around.

As for "division of labor", I should also note than I have a side business which I work on after the kids go to bed for some extra income for us. It's not every night, but most week nights. So, after a 9 hour day at work, then putting in another 3-4 hours, it is difficult to come upstairs to see the kitchen a mess and sink full of dishes when she's been sitting around talking on the phone to her friends over some wine and complaining she doesn't have time to do anything. I've even overheard her lying to her friends about how often we have sex: Every 1-2 weeks. Ummm...sure, if it makes you feel better lying about it, knock yourself out 

As for whether or not she is happy, having known her when she clearly was happy, I'd have to say "no". Having almost zero communication about those sorts of topics makes it very difficult to connect, but after almost 10 years of being together, I've lost hope of ever being able to help her break-down her walls and to speak openly and honestly with each other. As I think more about it, I really do feel she's compartmentalized me and is drawing any happiness she has from our kids; sadly I'm not "wired" like that.

Thanks again for your insight.....
RunningDad


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So, the less she does the more you do. The more she wants to be indulged, the more you indulge her? You even allow her to undermine the parenting you do, the limits you set, the expectations you have for your kids. It really doesn't sound like you have a partner, but a boss. A lazy entitled boss who doesn't pay well.

And where will this stop? You have become a servant in your own home and you aren't even getting lucky often enough to get a regular pay back.

Grow a pair. 
Read... No More Mr. Nice Guy


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## RunningDad (Mar 14, 2013)

inarut said:


> Have you clearly and firmly expressed just how unhappy you are, how things are effecting you like you have here? Have you told her as much as you love her and want to keep your family together you are seriously doubting your ability to do so for much longer if the two of you arent actively seeking and working on solutions to your problems?


Hi!

Thanks for your comments.

Yes, I have told her both verbally and via e-mail (don't laugh; the only way I have had ANY success getting her to open up is via e-mail) how much I care about her and that I'll do anything to help get us back on track--but for some time now I have made it a point to let her know "I can't live like this forever". There were also a couple times I broke down in front of her telling her I missed being close to her, and.....nothing. I just don't think she knows how to process her own emotions or those of others.

In my heart, I know counseling is the only hope for us and even then, she'd have to stick with it--but frankly, I don't see her going for either. I truly think she sees counseling as the tool which will open up all the little compartments in her head where she's buried every ounce of hurt, pain and anguish over her years, causing it all to pour out there in the open for people to judge and use against her. How do you convince someone that's not what counseling's about?

I also realize from my orig post that I was not very "balanced" in sharing what I perceive as being my "contributions" to this mess: I think my biggest fault has been that I have not figured out how to manage the expectations of someone who's a "dreamer" (and irrational much of the time) and has forced me into playing the role of full-time "realist". She throws out these lofty ideas, for example, like selling our house immediately for whatever we can get for it, and moving somewhere new and fun. Sounds great, right? Well, we've just re-fi'ed and (unlike most of our friends/family) we're not backwards in our mortgage. We're in a great school system and all our friends and her family (who I'm closer with than my own family) are here. And dammit, I like our house and what we've done with it, plus the only way we could ever afford to move would be to downsize.

Over time, I know I have started showing disdain for many of her ideas like this and, combined with her lack of her inability to be forthright or ever take responsibility for her actions or things said, I'm sure it probably comes across as though I don't respect her. And to be honest, she's probably right. So, at the very least, that's on me.

RunningDad


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## RunningDad (Mar 14, 2013)

Kettlebells21 said:


> Best wishes to you -- I'm there, too. Very dark place, eh?


Sorry to read that you are much in the "same boat" as me. Yeah, it is dark...especially when I think about how my 4 & 5 year old will take it. When my dad left, I was 16 and out of the house a lot being a teenager. So, I subconsciously rationalized the whole thing since my folks actually got along fairly well after they got divorced. Unfortunately, at the time it wrecked both my younger sisters; one has been married/divorced 3 times with a long series of messy break-ups with boyfriends since then.

Cheers,
RunningDad


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

RunningDad,

If you do a search, you'll find that there are a thousand threads on this site with your exact same story (literally, 1,000 threads). Your situation is common. You are headed toward (1) a sexless marriage, (2) a cheating spouse, (3) divorce.

#1 for sure. If you don't turn around #1 QUICKLY, then the likelihood that #2 and #3 occurs is very high. 

Two things that WILL NOT fix #1: being a better husband and being a better father.

Read the above line again, because I'm guessing that was your exact plan. "If only I can be a better husband and treat my wife better, our marriage will improve." Those 1,000 threads are full of stories from guys that tried that to fix #1, and it always (every single time) leads to #2 and #3. 

If you want your wife to have an affair and divorce you, then concentrate on treating her better and being a better husband. I know it sounds counter-intuitive and you're probably thinking "WTF, this guy is a nut." Just wait a little while for some others to chime in on this thread. You'll find out I'm not a nut, I'm right.

Read the following books (in this order):

* "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Glover

This should be your wake up call book. 

* "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Kay

I don't agree with a lot of the "game theory" used in the book, but it does give you a solid action plan for getting your relationship with your wife back into it's proper balance.

* "Get Inside Her" by Kinrys

This book is not recommended much on this site, but (IMHO) it does the best job of any book explaining exactly why a woman is attracted to a man (not just sexually attracted, but attracted period). Technically, it's a book for singles about dating, but it is easily applied to a marriage (think how often people say "you should date your wife," but they never tell you how--this book will tell you how).

Pay special attention to the "friend" section of the book, because that is what has happened to you: you have gone from being "boyfriend material" in you wife's mind to just "friend material." It may sound odd to you that you, as a husband, should also strive to be your wife's boyfriend, but you should. Husband as friend = failed marriage. Husband as boyfriend = lasting marriage.

* "The Way of the Superior Man" by Deida

There is a lot I don't like about this book (it has sort of a new age feel to it), but there is one aspect that is great: it makes you take your wife off the pedestal and treat her like a real human being that is very different from yourself. One with abundant flaws and virtues.

It also points out that your goal in life should NOT be to please your wife, make her happy, make a better life for her, or sacrifice yourself for her. Your goal should be to build a better life for yourself, and bring your wife along for the ride.

Again, it may seem counter-intuitive, but by doing this you will end up creating a better life for both of you TOGETHER than you ever could by sacrificing you life to make HER life better and happy.


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## nevergveup (Feb 18, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> So, the less she does the more you do. The more she wants to be indulged, the more you indulge her? You even allow her to undermine the parenting you do, the limits you set, the expectations you have for your kids. It really doesn't sound like you have a partner, but a boss. A lazy entitled boss who doesn't pay well.
> 
> And where will this stop? You have become a servant in your own home and you aren't even getting lucky often enough to get a regular pay back.
> 
> ...


Sorry for what your living with.YA your a nice guy and sadly
you married a selfish female who dosen't appreciate you or
respect you.

It's so telling when you say that when she goes away' you and
your kids have the best times together.Your wife sounds like
she would prefer to be single with no responsibilities.

You deserve someone who loves you.You buy her gifts and there always wrong.Damn some married people would just
appreciate a spouse just buying them something.

Give her and ultimatum and if she won't bend divorce her.
I'll bet she would let you have custody of the children.
To her the kids and you are cutting into her social life.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Blue Firefly,
I could not agree more. Excellent post.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

A few things here...

First, I can't believe that the therapist didn't come up with a list of YOUR issues. These things are rarely one-sided. If the therapist did, list them here so we can evaluate. It's really hard to judge when we only get your side of the story.

And being a "realist" to her "dreamer" is a nice interpretation, but maybe hers is you're "close minded" to her "dreams". 

Second, you work all day and then work at night. Yes, it MAY be necessary, yes you MAY need the money but can you not see the disconnect it creates with your wife?

Third, restart marriage counseling. If she doesn't want to go, go alone and let her know you are going. It will show you are serious about the situation. You will learn (a) how to live with the situation, (b) how to change her, (c) how to change yourself or (d) give you the ability to walk away.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

RunningDad said:


> She throws out these lofty ideas, for example, like selling our house immediately for whatever we can get for it, and moving somewhere new and fun.


You need to look up the term "fitness test" (aka "sh!t test"), because that's exactly what this is.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

Hope is right, you can work on this relationship to get it back on track or you can chose any of the more destructive paths. You can continue down the "Ignore" path for awhile, but it still ultimately leads to disaster in the end. She has to know that if we continue to Ignore, here is what is going to happen. I can't guarantee that she will accept your offer, but at least she will know where you stand.

Before you do that how ever, there are tasks that you need to complete. Firstly seek out a counselor and see how it could work for your family. What day, time, cost, baby sitting, etc before you present the plan. Secondly when she talks about selling the house and moving somewhere fun, instead saying no (in so many words), ask her where she would like to live. Maybe you could plan a vacation to go there and look at the city. What would it cost to move, how much are houses there. Make it a positive thing instead of a negative. You may ever find that she may come up with a good idea if you will listen to her. 

We NEED dreamers in this world to keep the nuts and bolts guys like yourself moving forward and exploring what can be if we dare to dream. Don't get me wrong you still need the nuts and bolts guy to make it work, but lots of time we can get complacent as well. She wants fun back in her life, what can you two do to get it back in your life NOW. If all you do together is sit around and watch TV, how will that change if you move to TX or CA?

You need to add intimacy back into this relationship. It doesn't have to be sex every day, but there should be intimacy every day (hold hands, hug, kiss, gentle massage of shoulders or feet). Life needs balance, there needs to be girl time for her, but also family time and spouse time as well. If you ignore these things the relationship is in pearl and life is not near as fun.


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## RunningDad (Mar 14, 2013)

Blue Firefly said:


> RunningDad,
> 
> If you do a search, you'll find that there are a thousand threads on this site with your exact same story (literally, 1,000 threads). Your situation is common. You are headed toward (1) a sexless marriage, (2) a cheating spouse, (3) divorce.
> 
> ...


Blue-

Thanks for your insight and the reading list. I'm not much of a reader usually, but will definitely make an exception here.

Your points and some of the approaches you mention do resonate with me; having some different viewpoints from folks who are or whom have battled this is tremendously helpful, as I am not comfortable "dumping" this on my friends...most of whom nowadays are actually "our" friends.

Many thanks,
RunningDad


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## RunningDad (Mar 14, 2013)

Chris Taylor said:


> A few things here...
> 
> First, I can't believe that the therapist didn't come up with a list of YOUR issues. These things are rarely one-sided. If the therapist did, list them here so we can evaluate. It's really hard to judge when we only get your side of the story.
> 
> ...


Hey Chris-

Some good points, for sure...and I appreciate your feedback.

I don't think for a second that the therapist *couldn't* come up with any issues related to me; the way he explained it was that he was starting with those which, to him, seemed most obvious and harmful to our relationship as a priority. At the time, it made sense since if one or both parties' "baggage" may be at the root of our relationship troubles, it probably doesn't make much sense to start focusing on "why he doesn't buy her flowers any more". In this case, based upon the 6-8 sessions we had together (and the 2-3 I had alone with him after she quit), the stuff I mentioned was what he deemed "mission critical" as our starting point.

Your point about "dreamer" vs "realist" is well taken and probably pretty accurate in a sense. I admit I have a tough time listening to some of the things she says we should do and don't always do a good job of trying to at least appear supportive. 

To clarify, I've only been doing the second job since August 2012 and the delivery of the work I do after hours is generally flexible, plus it is not every night. I don't work on Friday nights and usually not on weekends. So, while I see where you were headed with this--based upon the information I originally provided, I do not see this as the catalyst for how she's chosen to spend her time each evening.

Re: heading back to the counselor myself, I think you're 100% right. He had advised me to move out for a month to A.) let her know I'm serious about this, and B.) give her some space along with a first-hand look at what being a single mom is like

Thanks again for chiming in....
RunningDad


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

RunningDad said:


> Thanks for your insight and the reading list. I'm not much of a reader usually, but will definitely make an exception here.


I am a big reader, so a bit of advice.

These books are all available via Amazon in the kindle version for less than the print version. So, save yourself some money and time by:

1) Install the Chrome web browser on your PC (free)
2) Install the Kindle reader app in chrome (free)
3) Buy the kindle version of the books from Amazon 
4) Hole up somewhere and read them all as quickly as possible

It will cost you about $35 in total (vs about $60 for the printed versions) and you'll be ready to go in a week at the latest.

The other thing you should do is make a plan. Create a google account, and start making notes in google drive. Having a written plan of what you are going to do will help (1) keep you on track, and (2) keep you motivated.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

RunningDad said:


> I think my biggest fault has been that I have not figured out how to manage the expectations of someone who's a "dreamer" (and irrational much of the time) and has forced me into playing the role of full-time "realist". She throws out these lofty ideas, for example, like selling our house immediately for whatever we can get for it, and moving somewhere new and fun. Sounds great, right? Well, we've just re-fi'ed and (unlike most of our friends/family) we're not backwards in our mortgage. We're in a great school system and all our friends and her family (who I'm closer with than my own family) are here. And dammit, I like our house and what we've done with it, plus the only way we could ever afford to move would be to downsize.


FYI -

This is a fun tactic for the manipulator to stress out their target.

The magic on this one is to smile cheerfully with excited anticipation while saying "why don't we become heroin addicts and beg on streetcorners for our next fix..."

You think this is her being a "dreamer", when what's actually going on is malicious warfare. Behind that cheerful smile is a person knowing how much anxiety this is going to create.

Look carefully at your feelings, your emotions, when she does this to you. Look how heavily it weighs upon you. _That's why she is doing it_. 

As an exercise, and I am serious about this, look in the mirror and practice putting on a face that shows how upbeat and excited you are about a great idea for some fun. Eyebrows up high, eyes big and bright, a smile with the mouth open, and say something like "Let's disembowel some bunny rabbits and eat their guts for supper..."

Anyone can do this. It's called covert aggression. The "happy face" is concealing an act of war. She is putting on this act of carefree spontaneity when it is actually a carefully constructed attack. She's even thinking about what the best timing is for making these kinds of ambushes. Like when you are already a little on edge about a responsibility in front of you. Throw this on top of the loaded camel and watch it break his back. 



> There were also a couple times I broke down in front of her telling her I missed being close to her, and.....nothing.


Exactly. That's how she wants you. Knowing this is key to turning the whole thing around. The very last thing she would ever do is throw you a lifeline when she is the one who pushed you into the whirlpool to begin with. 



> Quite honestly, when my wife travels (it's rare, but does happen) is when I have the very best times with my kids


When you have this sense of relief, like a weight off your shoulders as they vanish from view - this is a critical sign you have been doing battle with a covert aggressive. Alternatively, as they approach you feel dread. 

I guarantee she is also using the double-bind. Covert aggressives like to manufacture situations where you lose no matter what choice you make. The point of doing this is again to keep you in a constant state of stress. There are no happy choices. 

Lying to people about your sex life: another act of war. One thing covert aggressives do, and you absolutely cannot underestimate this - they create a storyline with other people that is always unfair to you. They plan far ahead and get the story vested too deeply for you to do anything about. If you protest the story you are going to look like the one who is lying, and they'll already have people primed to expect you to "lie" in order to hurt them. Saying things within earshot of you demonstrates that she's already got this story in so deep that this trap is ready to be sprung already. They actually want you to know how unfair it is, which is bad enough, but the ultimate satisfaction is watching you try to protest it and hav people calling you a liar. The injustice of being put in that situation grinds the strongest person into dust. 

The book "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by Dr. George Simon is the best book I have ever read on manipulation in general but covert aggressives in particular.

I guarantee he will list off one tactic after another she is doing and you are going to say "yes, yes, yes..." Counseling with such a person is a really difficult issue because they are experts at manipulating counselors too. 

After what I have seen I am not so positive on being able to work this out with her. There is some possibility that this war is in part caused by resentments she has over something from you. But covert aggressives are actually a character disorder.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> This is a fun tactic for the manipulator to stress out their target.
> 
> The book "*In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People" by Dr. George Simon* is the best book I have ever read on manipulation in general but covert aggressives in particular.


1) Great book. Should be required reading.

2) One of my epiphanies was realizing that cute, innocent looking girl could be more deceptive and cruel than even the meanest man.

Cats are cruel--cruel to the point that they will play with their prey prior to killing it. Dogs, while mean and violent, don't inflict unnecessary suffering on their prey.

Men and women are a lot like dogs and cats.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> 1) Great book. Should be required reading.
> 
> 2) One of my epiphanies was realizing that cute, innocent looking girl could be more deceptive and cruel than even the meanest man.


I'm so thrilled that someone else here knows about this work, especially someone who does a lot of reading. Talk about epiphany! Me too. Cruel, malicious, heartless monsters smiling at you so sweetly while destroying you. 

You might also like "Nasty People", where the term "Invalidator" is coined by the author, and one I used earlier in the thread. It's an ebook and a really quick read.

A very, very good day to you fellow traveler.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> You might also like "Nasty People", where the term "Invalidator" is coined by the author, and one I used earlier in the thread. It's an ebook and a really quick read.


Is that by Jay Carter?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> Is that by Jay Carter?


Yes. You are going to see all of the overlap between materials you have read, especially Dr. Simon's work and this book.

I gradually developed the insight that all of these manipulative sub-types have the same general tool kit, but tend to specialize in certain tactics. From the covert aggressive to the emotional vampire to the serial killer you can see them playing dumb, evading, diverting, shaming, guilt-tripping, using false flattery, feigning emotions, lying by omission, lying by inclusion of extraneous misleading information, etc. Learing about one of the sub-types gets you a good deal of mileage in learning about the others. 

I went from being a stupid dupe to learning how to recognize the different sub-types very quickly and it is an avid hobby of mine now. 

This fellow in the OP has a nasty one on his hands, really working him over.


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