# Feminism Destroys Male/Female Relations



## EllisRedding

A caller on one of the radio shows commented that she felt Feminism (guessing in its current form, whatever wave that is) was destroying Male/Female Relations (at least in the US). 



> Feminists are destroying male-female relationships, said a caller to Rush Limbaugh on his eponymous Monday radio show.
> 
> “[Feminists], I think, have pushed American men into a place where they’re afraid to compliment women. And who misses out? American women miss out,” said Joanna from Louisiana.
> 
> Joanna was responding to an earlier caller who framed President Donald Trump’s compliments to French President Emmanuel Macron’s wife as somehow sexist and derogatory towards women.
> 
> The spread of feminism, said Joanna, has cowed men away from complimenting women they are attracted to and interested in:





> I want to tell you a little story. When I was in Italy, I was 40 years old, and four young men in suits got out of a Mercedes-Benz, and they looked at me, and they said, "che bello," or "how beautiful." And I appreciated that so much, ’cause I hadn’t heard it in a long time. Because I’ve noticed that when an American man looks at me, and I see him looking at me, he would look away. And I would think, “What’s wrong? Is my hair out of place?” Instead of feeling complimented, I felt like something was wrong.
> 
> I think it’s sad. American women miss out because of the way they have made men feel afraid to say things like that. I wish American men, when they see a beautiful woman and they want to say something, I wish they would. And I think that if a woman takes that wrong, then, you know what, that’s her problem; it’s not his problem. It’s her problem. Because that man might miss out on a chance, if he doesn’t tell her, to find the woman, the love of his life.





> Male courtship of women has been castigated as somehow predatory by feminists, suggested Joanna:
> 
> Well, I think that the minute — okay, he’s staring at me and I look and I make contact with him, and I think he’s saying, "Oh, no, she knows I’m looking at her," and he thinks, “I don’t want her to think I’m, you know, being a pervert,” so he looks away. And I think this has been put in American men’s minds by American women, these feminists and stuff. Because see, the sad thing is, I want to say this to all American men. If you’re looking at a woman, and you think she’s beautiful, please at least smile. And even if she makes eye contact with you, please smile.
> 
> ... talking about single men, and if they look at a woman and they think maybe she’s single, I wish that he would just smile, because I think even a single man and single women, I think even in that instance sometimes they don’t smile.


Thoughts? I am guessing we are talking about compliments, not harassing (although, I guess to an extent these days any compliment can be considered harassment by some). 

Limbaugh Caller: Feminism Destroys Male/Female Relations | Daily Wire


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## xxxSHxYZxxx

When women say you need their consent to even speak to them this doesn't surprise me

Sent from my SM-G928T using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

Things a little slow so you tossed a grenade into the room to get things started?

It's an interesting point since my particular interest is in whether or not changing male/female relationships might be hurting women more than men, even though they're being driven mostly by women.

Heaping yet more compliments on attractive women in order to make their egos even bigger then they already are has never been my thing.

There have been a few times that I've felt compelled to compliment a woman but I've held back for fear of being seen as a creeper. I don't know if the women appreciated that or would have preferred the compliment.

Interesting story. There's a woman that I've worked with for a long time who, while very nice, was very overweight. She I and I developed a habit of 'over the top' complimenting each other (primarily in front of others).

When she lost a lot of weight and became attractive, I stopped the compliments (since now there was a chance that I could be taken seriously).

She noticed and seemed to miss it. I couldn't tell her why I stopped (how do you explain that?).

Now, she's put the weight back on and we're back to our old ways.


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## MrsAldi

The feminists who want to stop compliments are the women who never get any! They don't want others to have any either. 

The only time it becomes scary and intimidating is when you're alone and it's being done by a group of men with a "pack mentality". 

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> Thoughts? I am guessing we are talking about compliments, not harassing (*although, I guess to an extent these days any compliment can be considered harassment by some*).


That's the problem. The woman gets to determine if it's a compliment or harassment, so there's no way of knowing in advance what the response would be. I'm not taking that risk.

However, many men would be too dense to tell the difference even if there was a bright line.


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## BA-FO

Very interesting topic. I think this particular brand of feminism that we see today is almost completely toxic. For both men and women


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## turnera

That's a big difference from the president of the US telling France's first lady that she's hot.


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## C3156

Buddy400 said:


> That's the problem. The woman gets to determine if it's a compliment or harassment, so there's no way of knowing in advance what the response would be. I'm not taking that risk..


And in todays American culture, it is presumed the woman is correct, regardless. Since when did a compliment become a crime? 





turnera said:


> That's a big difference from the president of the US telling France's first lady that she's hot.


Technically he did not tell her she was hot, just, " You're in great shape!" For 64 years old, I would have to agree.


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## toblerone

What I've learned is that you'd have to slip and trip into a full-scale Lilith Fair in order to meet those stereotypical Feminists everyone likes to complain about. The others in the wild you can see from a mile away and you'd probably not even be the type you'd approach anyway.

I think complaining about Feminists ruining this or that is used more as a crutch by guys who don't have the confidence to approach women, or don't have it together enough to give a true compliment: they either end up sounding creepy or because there is an ulterior motive.

Then you got women who for some reason aren't meeting men so they blame it on other women making men scared.


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## Andy1001

turnera said:


> That's a big difference from the president of the US telling France's first lady that she's hot.


Especially when it's a lie.I would be thinking about hot women for a long time before Brigitte came to mind.


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## xxxSHxYZxxx

toblerone said:


> I think complaining about Feminists ruining this or that is used more as a crutch by guys who don't have the confidence to approach women, or don't have it together enough to give a true compliment...


Haha buuuurn

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## EleGirl

> I want to tell you a little story. When I was in Italy, I was 40 years old, and four young men in suits got out of a Mercedes-Benz, and they looked at me, and they said, "che bello," or "how beautiful." And I appreciated that so much, ’cause I hadn’t heard it in a long time. Because I’ve noticed that when an American man looks at me, and I see him looking at me, he would look away. And I would think, “What’s wrong? Is my hair out of place?” Instead of feeling complimented, I felt like something was wrong.


If the men yelled out “che bello” they thought she was a man, maybe a cross dresser? Italian is a gendered language. If they thought she was a woman, they would have yelled out “che bella”. The vowel at the end of a word is important. Most likely she just does not know Italian, but who knows.

This is a very insecure woman. She is so insecure that if a man looks at her and does not complement her, she thinks there is something wrong with her. Really? She’s that insecure. I feel sorry for her.

She was clearly in southern Italy. I lived in Italy in my teens and 20’s. Half of the time I was in the south and the other half in the north. Men in southern Italy often say things to good looking women. Actually the woman is lucky if he only says something. Touching her in inappropriate places is common. So is following the woman for blocks, touching her, begging her to love him, etc.

Now in northern Italy, they look down on the men in the south who behave like this. There was a very distinct difference between walking around a city like Naples and walking around Milan, Verona, Vicenza, etc. In the northern cities, there is little to no cat calling. So to even call this an Italian thing is ridiculous.



> I think it’s sad. American women miss out because of the way they have made men feel afraid to say things like that. I wish American men, when they see a beautiful woman and they want to say something, I wish they would. And I think that if a woman takes that wrong, then, you know what, that’s her problem; it’s not his problem. It’s her problem. Because that man might miss out on a chance, if he doesn’t tell her, to find the woman, the love of his life.


Just like cat calling is mostly a Southern Italian thing, it’s also mostly a big city thing in the USA. If a good-looking woman walks around any crowded big city, she’s going to get a lot of cat calling.

Do you men really want your wives and daughters to be out seeking attention of random men on the street? Do you want the women in your family to need this kind of attention to feel good about themselves?


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## TX-SC

I don't believe that feminism is as bad as it once was, at least not around the southern US. I suppose that some women might be overboard, but most are not.


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## EleGirl

MrsAldi said:


> The feminists who want to stop compliments are the women who never get any! They don't want others to have any either.
> 
> The only time it becomes scary and intimidating is when you're alone and it's being done by a group of men with a "pack mentality".


Really? When I was young I got tons of attention from men on the street. And I got to the point where I did not like it. It was not because I was ugly and thus did not want other women to get the attention. It was because it was to the point of being ridiculous, constant and there were often men who would cross the line.

Like men who started following me, putting her hands on me and telling me how beautiful I was and how much they loved me.. blah blah. I could hardly walk from my home to my high school with out at least on guy doing this.

Then there were the guys in the cars who would follow me at a very slow pace, the whole time yelling complements at me and wiggling their tongue at me. Oh yea... I really felt complemented NOT

How about the guy on the bus who whispered that I was good looking and then grabbed my crotch? I had a solution for him. I grabbed his hand so I knew who he was. He smiled cause he thought I was receptive. Then I stomped the top of his foot with my high heal. As I got off the bus, everyone on the bus was laughing at the guy and cheering, especially the women. They knew what went down.

I have no issue with a cat call once in a while. But there has to be somewhere that a line is drawn. Where is that line?


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## EleGirl

xxxSHxYZxxx said:


> When women say you need their consent to even speak to them this doesn't surprise me


What do you mean by 'consent' to speak to someone. 

You can speak to anyone in public that you want to. It's up to them if they want to reply to you can talk to you. They have the right not to talk to you.

And guess what, you have the right to not talk to people who speak to you too.


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## Andy1001

toblerone said:


> What I've learned is that you'd have to slip and trip into a full-scale Lilith Fair in order to meet those stereotypical Feminists everyone likes to complain about. The others in the wild you can see from a mile away and you'd probably not even be the type you'd approach anyway.
> 
> I think complaining about Feminists ruining this or that is used more as a crutch by guys who don't have the confidence to approach women, or don't have it together enough to give a true compliment: they either end up sounding creepy or because there is an ulterior motive.
> 
> Then you got women who for some reason aren't meeting men so they blame it on other women making men scared.


When I was single I traveled a lot and never had any long term girlfriends.I would be in hotels for one day,maybe two and I learned how to pick up women very quickly.This was my favourite trick.If there were some hot women in the hotel bar (and there nearly always are)I would buy a bottle of champagne (on expenses of course lol) and get two glasses.When one of the women made eye contact I would lift the empty glass and tilt it towards her while looking directly into her eyes.I am genuinely trying to remember if it ever failed and I honestly can't remember a time that it did.
My point is this.Never look away if someone you are attracted to makes eye contact,I don't mean stare so hard you frighten them,just casually meet their glance.
If she looks away and doesn't look back,well,it cost you nothing.
But if she keeps looking back.....


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## EleGirl

C3156 said:


> And in todays American culture, it is presumed the woman is correct, regardless. Since when did a compliment become a crime?


A man walking by who says "ciao bella" is making a compliment.

A man saying "ciao bella", "Hey talk to me.", etc as he follows her for blocks is harassing her. Potentially that's stalking. She would be right to be afraid in this situation.

See the difference?


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## BetrayedDad

toblerone said:


> I think complaining about Feminists ruining this or that is used more as a crutch by guys who don't have the confidence to approach women, or don't have it together enough to give a true compliment: they either end up sounding creepy or because there is an ulterior motive.


The rule of thumb is:

1) If the woman finds the man attractive, its a compliment.

2) If the woman finds the man unattractive, he's a creep.

There no "magic phrase" that seduces women. All this PUA crap, aside from teaching confidence, is nonsense.

I saw a guy once call a girl he recently met a "stupid ****" and a few hours later he was getting laid by her.


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## EleGirl

Andy1001 said:


> When I was single I traveled a lot and never had any long term girlfriends.I would be in hotels for one day,maybe two and I learned how to pick up women very quickly.This was my favourite trick.If there were some hot women in the hotel bar (and there nearly always are)I would buy a bottle of champagne (on expenses of course lol) and get two glasses.When one of the women made eye contact I would lift the empty glass and tilt it towards her while looking directly into her eyes.I am genuinely trying to remember if it ever failed and I honestly can't remember a time that it did.
> 
> My point is this.Never look away if someone you are attracted to makes eye contact,I don't mean stare so hard you frighten them,just casually meet their glance.
> 
> If she looks away and doesn't look back,well,it cost you nothing.
> 
> But if she keeps looking back.....


It's pretty easy to pick up women who are looking to be picked up.


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## Andy1001

EleGirl said:


> It's pretty easy to pick up women who are looking to be picked up.


Why do so many guys have a problem doing it so.I've seen guys all over the world trying to pick up women and some of their tactics were laughable.They have this opinion that women are these strange exotic creatures that are untouchable unless you have the magic pick up line and then their knickers will fall off as if by magic.
Before I met my girlfriend I lived with a gay girl for years and then her partner moved in for a few years so I think I can speak from experience.I think men and women are about ninety five percent exactly the same, other than a slight emotional difference.
Until she gets pregnant that is,then all bets are off.😳


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## toblerone

EleGirl said:


> It's pretty easy to pick up women who are looking to be picked up.


And god bless 'em!



> I've seen guys all over the world trying to pick up women and some of their tactics were laughable.They have this opinion that women are these strange exotic creatures that are untouchable unless you have the magic pick up line and then their knickers will fall off as if by magic.


I think you nailed the problem quite accurately as to why so many guys have a problem doing it, even when women are looking to be picked up.


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## turnera

C3156 said:


> And in todays American culture, it is presumed the woman is correct, regardless. Since when did a compliment become a crime?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technically he did not tell her she was hot, just, " You're in great shape!" For 64 years old, I would have to agree.


Are you female? In my world, as a female, that's either a lecherous comment or an insult.


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## toblerone

turnera said:


> Are you female? In my world, as a female, that's either a lecherous comment or an insult.


A large part how you'd feel about the comment is determined by how the person saying it comes across. If you think the dude is a sleazeball, you'd pour a drink on him. If it comes across as a warm compliment, you might be flattered.

If you don't have an opinion one way or the other, and he just wasn't your type, you'd just think to yourself 'whatever' and turn and do whatever you were doing before.

Assuming of course you're in an 'open to meeting people' kind of mood, in the first place.


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## Buddy400

toblerone said:


> What I've learned is that you'd have to slip and trip into a full-scale Lilith Fair in order to meet those stereotypical Feminists everyone likes to complain about. The others in the wild you can see from a mile away and you'd probably not even be the type you'd approach anyway.
> 
> I think complaining about Feminists ruining this or that is used more as a crutch by guys who don't have the confidence to approach women, or *don't have it together enough to give a true compliment*: they either end up sounding creepy or because there is an ulterior motive.
> 
> Then you got women who for some reason aren't meeting men so they blame it on other women making men scared.


But you pretend that the term you used "true compliment" is something well defined and has the same meaning to everyone.

It isn't. What's a "true compliment" to one person could easily be harassment to another.

I'm not taking the chance.

Unless I'm Tom Brady on SNL ("Be attractive, don't be unattractive")


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## Buddy400

Andy1001 said:


> My point is this.Never look away if someone you are attracted to makes eye contact,I don't mean stare so hard you frighten them,just casually meet their glance.


If she's attracted to you, she'll welcome the eye contact.

If she isn't, you're a creeper.

Same behavior on your part either way.


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## toblerone

Well sure, it's hard to define explicitly. It depends on how you approach someone. One way I could describe a true compliment is something given with no expectation in return. You could dress it up as it being a positive accomplishment. People like to hear they're cool and good.

I realize now that I completely neglected an important thing, which turnera was probably getting at: leading with 'You're in great shape!' is not a good starter.

But, you can be warm and open to approach people, or light hearted and genuine. If they aren't receptive, what's the big loss? You were being yourself, and you expected nothing in return.


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## uhtred

I think few women object to a man politely saying "hi" or the equivalent to start a conversation if they are in a situation where it is socially acceptable. The key is that if she indicates that she doesn't want to talk, he leaves her alone.


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## Red Sonja

EleGirl said:


> Then there were the guys in the cars who would follow me at a very slow pace, the whole time yelling complements at me and wiggling their tongue at me. Oh yea... I really felt complemented NOT
> 
> How about the guy on the bus who whispered that I was good looking and then grabbed my crotch? I had a solution for him. I grabbed his hand so I knew who he was. He smiled cause he thought I was receptive. Then I stomped the top of his foot with my high heal. As I got off the bus, everyone on the bus was laughing at the guy and cheering, especially the women. They knew what went down.


Don't forget about the fathers of the families we babysat for ... when they drove me home afterwards they would hit on me and touch me in the car.

:surprise:

That's why I stopped taking babysitting jobs. This type of crap happened to me so often as a young teenager that it kept me from having a boyfriend until I was older. It made me think all men/boys must be pigs. Of course, I grew up and learned differently, but still ... Why were/are young 12/13/14/15 year old girls exposed to this crap constantly?


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## Mr. Nail

turnera said:


> Are you female? In my world, as a female, that's either a lecherous comment or an insult.


 I'm really struggling with this one, I guess it's a good thing I don't talk much at the gym, I'd sure hate for one of those young buff Guys to think I was getting lecherous with them.



EleGirl said:


> What do you mean by 'consent' to speak to someone.
> 
> You can speak to anyone in public that you want to. It's up to them if they want to reply to you can talk to you. They have the right not to talk to you.
> 
> And guess what, you have the right to not talk to people who speak to you too.


Sorry, this is simply not true in todays legal environment, Certainly not true on a university Campus. 
Talking is harassment.


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## Mr. Nail

MrsAldi said:


> The feminists who want to stop compliments are the women who never get any! They don't want others to have any either.
> 
> *The only time* it becomes scary and intimidating is when you're alone and it's being done by a group of men with a "pack mentality".
> 
> Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk


or when it is an ugly, or short man, or a republican, or the wrong day, or. . . . . . . . . . . you don't want it. Which of course is why I do in fact look down, and do not in fact complement strangers. It's a mine field out there.


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## toblerone

Mr. Nail said:


> Sorry, this is simply not true in todays legal environment, Certainly not true on a university Campus.
> Talking is harassment.


I've pulled off joking around about extremely dumb things like "Does this rag smell like chloroform?" and "Hey, look at this, can you believe this? I found a condom in that bathroom over there" and it went well.

I think the idea that 'talking is harassment' is absurd and defeatist.


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## Andy1001

toblerone said:


> Well sure, it's hard to define explicitly. It depends on how you approach someone. One way I could describe a true compliment is something given with no expectation in return. You could dress it up as it being a positive accomplishment. People like to hear they're cool and good.
> 
> I realize now that I completely neglected an important thing, which turnera was probably getting at: leading with 'You're in great shape!' is not a good starter.
> 
> But, you can be warm and open to approach people, or light hearted and genuine. If they aren't receptive, what's the big loss? You were being yourself, and you expected nothing in return.


If you actually mean the compliment,not just saying it as an ice breaker then I think a lot of people,not just women can sense that you are sincere.
I may seem weird here but for me some girls really suit very short hair,even a buzz cut.I was in a coffee shop in a mall in NY one day when a girl came in with a freshly buzzed head, before I could stop myself I said "wow,she is hot" and she heard me.She smiled and came over and we had a cup of coffee together.We had a casual relationship for a few months whenever I was in the city.


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## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> Things a little slow so you tossed a grenade into the room to get things started?


Lol, not on TAM much anymore, so thought I would throw one out there and see how it rolls! >

The interesting part, to me at least, is wondering how much of this is overblown. Thanks to social media, everyone has a voice, and the minority can sure make it seem like they are the majority. How much of this "man hating, don't even think about holding the door open for me" feminism truly exists (i.e. is this really just a small group of outspoken women). 

For my part, I have never been one to just throw out compliments left and right at women, or gawk over any one person. If I happen to pass an attractive woman and our eyes meet, I would have no issues giving a quick smile, but that would be the extent of it. Otherwise, given that I am married, I never viewed showering a woman who is not my W with compliments as all that appropriate.


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## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> Sorry, this is simply not true in todays legal environment, Certainly not true on a university Campus.
> 
> Talking is harassment.


That's not true at all. My kids have been college for the last several years as have many of my nieces and nephews. They all are outgoing people. Not one has been accused of harassing anyone.


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## Buddy400

Andy1001 said:


> If you actually mean the compliment,not just saying it as an ice breaker then I think a lot of people,not just women *can sense* that you are sincere.
> I may seem weird here but for me some girls really suit very short hair,even a buzz cut.I was in a coffee shop in a mall in NY one day when a girl came in with a freshly buzzed head, before I could stop myself I said "wow,she is hot" and she heard me.She smiled and came over and we had a cup of coffee together.We had a casual relationship for a few months whenever I was in the city.


I'm not going to bet my livelihood on what a woman "senses".


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## Andy1001

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not going to bet my livelihood on what a woman "senses".


Who's betting their livelihood on anything?
All it cost was a cup of coffee.
And a doughnut,I really know how to treat a lady.😈


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## Faithful Wife

Regardless of what any of us say or think here on the forum, men will continue to make comments (whether a compliment or not is not clear) to women everywhere in the world, until the end of time. Whether a woman thinks he is a jerk for it or thinks he is being sweet or thinks he is simply being a man, is up to each woman. What we think about it will never stop or change what men do. And the men who are saying "I wouldn't take that chance", ok that's fine, it is your choice. But your small withdrawal from the pool of men who will always make comments to women will not be noticed.


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## Buddy400

Andy1001 said:


> Who's betting their livelihood on anything?
> All it cost was a cup of coffee.
> And a doughnut,I really know how to treat a lady.😈


It's your livelihood if it happens at work.

Or if you're a famous athlete and she senses harassment.


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## Faithful Wife

Red Sonja said:


> Don't forget about the fathers of the families we babysat for ... when they drove me home afterwards they would hit on me and touch me in the car.
> 
> :surprise:
> 
> That's why I stopped taking babysitting jobs. This type of crap happened to me so often as a young teenager that it kept me from having a boyfriend until I was older. It made me think all men/boys must be pigs. Of course, I grew up and learned differently, but still ... Why were/are young 12/13/14/15 year old girls exposed to this crap constantly?


This is really why most men don't "get it".

If most men were subjected to this type of harassment when they were pre-teens by other MEN, then they would understand it.*

Men who do this know young girls are too vulnerable to know how to stand up for themselves in this scenario and that's why they target them. This certainly doesn't mean that all men do this, either to young girls or to women at large...because the grabbing and obvious harassment piece of this is not something all or even most men do.

So I can understand why decent men who may whistle across the street at an attractive woman a few times in their lives don't want to be lumped in with the creeps who target young girls and grope them, etc.

BUT...I do wish men could understand what it is like for the young girls who endure this and what happens to our thoughts about this topic as we grow up to be women. If we all had a body cam so that we could capture what young girls go through over and over, so that other decent adult men could see how horrible it is....then at least perhaps they could have some empathy for us.

Even if you are a father, this has most likely happened to your daughter, and she won't tell you about it. So many men think they have sheltered their daughters from this type of thing by simply being decent men and not allowing their girls to be around who they deem to be "creeps". But decent men always underestimate who and how many men are truly this creepy, so they have no way to shelter their girls from these men.


(*side note: I was having a discussion with a guy who was saying "It must be great to feel so wanted all the time, since you hear and see men trying to get your attention or talk to you or complimenting you everywhere you go...I would love to feel that sexually wanted". And I said "Well, it probably isn't like how you imagine it. To truly imagine it, you'd have to imagine that when you walked down the street, almost every MAN you passed showed that he sexually wanted you, made comments, leered at you or tried to talk to you. Would that feel sexy and good to you, or scary and threatening?" His eyes got huge and he said "UGH dear god, that would be horrible!! I get it, I get it now!")


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## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Regardless of what any of us say or think here on the forum, men will continue to make comments (whether a compliment or not is not clear) to women everywhere in the world, until the end of time. Whether a woman thinks he is a jerk for it or thinks he is being sweet or thinks he is simply being a man, is up to each woman. What we think about it will never stop or change what men do. And the men who are saying "I wouldn't take that chance", ok that's fine, it is your choice. *But your small withdrawal from the pool of men who will always make comments to women will not be notice*d.


True, which is just how things seem to go.

Women complain about men harassing them when no harassment was intended.

Some men therefore stop making comments which have any possibility of being misinterpreted.

Then the women tell them that they're not * real* men because they stopped doing what women complained about and that you therefore have no chance of ****ing them. 

Glad I'm 62.


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## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> So I can understand why decent men who may whistle across the street at an attractive woman a few times in their lives don't want to be lumped in with the creeps who target young girls and grope them, etc.


But, let's do it anyway.


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## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> True, which is just how things seem to go.
> 
> Women complain about men harassing them when no harassment was intended.
> 
> Some men therefore stop making comments which have any possibility of being misinterpreted.
> 
> *Then the women tell them that they're not  real men because they stopped doing what women complained about and that you therefore have no chance of ****ing them.*
> 
> Glad I'm 62.


Um, who said that if a guy does not cat call (or complement random women on the street) that he's not a real man? 

Not one person on this thread even implied it.


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## Faithful Wife

Buddy400 said:


> True, which is just how things seem to go.
> 
> Women complain about men harassing them when no harassment was intended.
> 
> Some men therefore stop making comments which have any possibility of being misinterpreted.
> 
> *Then the women tell them that they're not  real men because they stopped doing what women complained about and that you therefore have no chance of ****ing them. *
> 
> Glad I'm 62.


Who said this and where did they say it?

Or are you just imagining things in order to keep some idea in your head that is already there, even though it is not based on real events?


----------



## Mr. Nail

Darvo


----------



## sokillme

Extremist on any issue be it politics or social destroy everyone else in the middle.


----------



## toblerone

Mr. Nail said:


> Darvo


On the other hand, a lot those posts seem like victim mentality.


----------



## Yag-Kosha

All I know is that people nowadays seem genuinely afraid in general. They'd rather text people they'll never meet than have a conversation with someone right in front of them. 

As someone who looks like something right out of a Lovecraftian short story, I have to be pretty careful what I do around people. If it's at night and there is nobody around and there's a woman walking in front of me, I'll either slow down to give them more space or cross the street. Speaking to children in public is also out of the question.

I think both men and women have certain advantages/disadvantages in our current cultural climate. Women tend to get harassed/are the majority of victims when it comes to sexual assault/domestic violence. Whereas men are treated as sub-human, disposable and are encouraged from birth that they need to prove their worthiness in order to belong to the clan/community/whatever. It's the reason so many movies employ the 'coming of age' story line, where the man needs to accomplish some great feat to prove himself worthy to himself and his community.


----------



## FrenchFry

toblerone said:


> On the other hand, a lot those posts seem like victim mentality.


Yes and no.

Like a for real fact that needs to be said over and over: *a lot of women experience extremely predatory behavior at the hands of predatory men especially during the the time that they are going through sexual development. This stuff really messes with our minds and colors our interactions.
* This makes a lot of women extremely hesitant to accept a compliment because we have experienced what happens when it isn't a pure compliment. Some of us (me) especially.

On the flipside, what sucks is that because there *is not* a surefire way to tell if a compliment is genuine or not, spidey-senses are up for everything and even though a man may be genuinely complimenting a woman, something can go off that makes us say "nuh-uh." All of these are different for women and while there are some in common, there is no way a man can be expected to tiptoe around them all.

So, I don't blame you if you don't want to compliment. You should ALSO be mad at the men who have damaged women's ability to trust a social nicety by using it for terrible purposes. Feminism didn't do that at all.


----------



## Dannip

The struggle...

How Radical Feminism Sowed the Seeds of Our Transgender Moment


Sex, Gender, and the Origin of the Culture Wars:*An Intellectual History | The Heritage Foundation


----------



## Personal

EleGirl said:


> She was clearly in southern Italy. I lived in Italy in my teens and 20’s. Half of the time I was in the south and the other half in the north. Men in southern Italy often say things to good looking women. Actually the woman is lucky if he only says something. Touching her in inappropriate places is common. So is following the woman for blocks, touching her, begging her to love him, etc.
> 
> Now in northern Italy, they look down on the men in the south who behave like this. There was a very distinct difference between walking around a city like Naples and walking around Milan, Verona, Vicenza, etc. In the northern cities, there is little to no cat calling. *So to even call this an Italian thing is ridiculous.*


Yep!

My wife who was born in Australia, has at various times also lived in Italy (Catania in Sicily) as a child and young woman (her first language is Italian). That said she has travelled on holidays through Northern and Southern Italy as well, and like you has also remarked on the differences in behaviour from men in various parts of Italy.


----------



## becareful2

Forward thinking.

I noticed those two words over at SI, in the Just Found Out forum, written by a betrayed husband with the handle THX1138. Here's his quote:



> he found time out of his busy schedule to select a post card of some really beautiful architecture which my W enjoys, writes the post card, and drops it in the mail. I should have said something then and there, because I think others would agree with me, who was the post card really for? But I didn't. I let it go. I had a warning flag in my mind, but I figured I was being a jealous git because he's a guy and maybe I'm not as forward thinking as I thought I was...


The moment I saw those two words, I had a strong suspicion that he was a male feminist. Later on in the post, he expressed so much fear about having looked through his cheating wife's phone to gather the evidence, about how he had violated her right to privacy. Forget about getting angry; he's a mess of crippling fear and indecision. He is, to me, the poster child of the "woke" male feminist. His wife has no respect for him, because he let the affair evolve from EA to PA and didn't so much as confront due to overwhelming fear. 

There are many husbands just like him on this forum and others.


----------



## tech-novelist

BetrayedDad said:


> The rule of thumb is:
> 
> 1) If the woman finds the man attractive, its a compliment.
> 
> 2) If the woman finds the man unattractive, he's a creep.
> 
> There no "magic phrase" that seduces women. *All this PUA crap, aside from teaching confidence, is nonsense*.
> 
> *I saw a guy once call a girl he recently met a "stupid ****" and a few hours later he was getting laid by her*.


Calling a girl a "stupid ****" is *precisely *a PUA tactic. Of course it doesn't work all the time, but it does work sometimes.


----------



## toblerone

becareful2 said:


> The moment I saw those two words, I had a strong suspicion that he was a male feminist.



That has nothing to do with whether or not someone is a male feminist.


----------



## becareful2

toblerone said:


> That has nothing to do with whether or not someone is a male feminist.


Of course, I didn't ask him, but base on my experiences, he is one. However, it's just an unconfirmed suspicion.


----------



## toblerone

becareful2 said:


> Forward thinking.
> 
> I noticed those two words over at SI, in the Just Found Out forum, written by a betrayed husband with the handle THX1138. Here's his quote:
> 
> 
> 
> The moment I saw those two words, I had a strong suspicion that he was a male feminist. Later on in the post, he expressed so much fear about having looked through his cheating wife's phone to gather the evidence, about how he had violated her right to privacy. Forget about getting angry; he's a mess of crippling fear and indecision. He is, to me, the poster child of the "woke" male feminist. His wife has no respect for him, because he let the affair evolve from EA to PA and didn't so much as confront due to overwhelming fear.
> 
> There are many husbands just like him on this forum and others.





becareful2 said:


> Of course, I didn't ask him, but base on my experiences, he is one. However, it's just an unconfirmed suspicion.


Based on an unconfirmed suspicion, you decided that someone was the poster child of a woke male feminist.

Show me on the doll where the big bad feminist touched you as a child.


----------



## becareful2

toblerone said:


> Based on an unconfirmed suspicion, you decided that someone was the poster child of a woke male feminist.
> 
> Show me on the doll where the big bad feminist touched you as a child.


LOL, why does this trigger you so much. He was brainwashed to believe that married women can have male friends and do all those things that his wife did with her OM, and to not be jealous about it. I picked up on clues and formed an opinion.


----------



## Buddy400

Faithful Wife said:


> Who said this and where did they say it?
> 
> Or are you just imagining things in order to keep some idea in your head that is already there, even though it is not based on real events?


You. 

This was my interpretation of your reply dismissing the guys who stop making comments and whose changed behavior won't even be noticed.


----------



## Buddy400

FrenchFry said:


> On the flipside, what sucks is that because there *is not* a surefire way to tell if a compliment is genuine or not, spidey-senses are up for everything and even though a man may be genuinely complimenting a woman, something can go off that makes us say "nuh-uh." All of these are different for women and while there are some in common, *there is no way a man can be expected to tiptoe around them all*.
> 
> So, I don't blame you if you don't want to compliment.


This is really, really good. It's a rare show of empathy for the opposite gender 



FrenchFry said:


> You should ALSO be mad at the men who have damaged women's ability to trust a social nicety by using it for terrible purposes


I am.


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> Regardless of what any of us say or think here on the forum, men will continue to make comments (whether a compliment or not is not clear) to women everywhere in the world, until the end of time. Whether a woman thinks he is a jerk for it or thinks he is being sweet or thinks he is simply being a man, is up to each woman. What we think about it will never stop or change what men do. And the men who are saying "I wouldn't take that chance", ok that's fine, it is your choice. But your small withdrawal from the pool of men who will always make comments to women will not be noticed.





Buddy400 said:


> True, which is just how things seem to go.
> 
> Women complain about men harassing them when no harassment was intended.
> 
> Some men therefore stop making comments which have any possibility of being misinterpreted.
> 
> *Then the women tell them that they're not  real men because they stopped doing what women complained about and that you therefore have no chance of ****ing them*.
> 
> Glad I'm 62.





Buddy400 said:


> You.
> 
> This was my interpretation of your reply dismissing the guys who stop making comments and whose changed behavior won't even be noticed.


Wow, did you misinterpret what she said.

She did not say that the men who make comments to women are *real* men. What she said is that some small number of men won't make comments to women. But there will always be men who do.

I'm not sure that I agree with her that most men will make passing comments (cat calls, etc) to good looking women. But clearly some men do make passing comments (cat calls, etc) to good looking women.. Maybe someone could do a social study on what percentage of men do this.


----------



## Blondilocks

What is a "sloot"?


----------



## Andy1001

Blondilocks said:


> What is a "sloot"?


It's the same as a slot,just easier to insert your.....
😜😜😜


----------



## TX-SC

Only very rarely do I compliment a woman I don't know. And by rarely, I mean maybe once every 5 years or so. My compliment is sincere and it would usually be something like:

"I noticed the perfume you are wearing and it's really nice! Can you tell me what brand it is? I think my wife might like it too." 

I would never compliment someone I don't personally know on how they look.


----------



## troubledinma

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm really struggling with this one, I guess it's a good thing I don't talk much at the gym, I'd sure hate for one of those young buff Guys to think I was getting lecherous with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, this is simply not true in todays legal environment, Certainly not true on a university Campus.
> Talking is harassment.


No. It's not. 

"Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


----------



## troubledinma

Faithful Wife said:


> This is really why most men don't "get it".
> 
> If most men were subjected to this type of harassment when they were pre-teens by other MEN, then they would understand it.*
> 
> Men who do this know young girls are too vulnerable to know how to stand up for themselves in this scenario and that's why they target them. This certainly doesn't mean that all men do this, either to young girls or to women at large...because the grabbing and obvious harassment piece of this is not something all or even most men do.
> 
> So I can understand why decent men who may whistle across the street at an attractive woman a few times in their lives don't want to be lumped in with the creeps who target young girls and grope them, etc.
> 
> BUT...I do wish men could understand what it is like for the young girls who endure this and what happens to our thoughts about this topic as we grow up to be women. If we all had a body cam so that we could capture what young girls go through over and over, so that other decent adult men could see how horrible it is....then at least perhaps they could have some empathy for us.
> 
> Even if you are a father, this has most likely happened to your daughter, and she won't tell you about it. So many men think they have sheltered their daughters from this type of thing by simply being decent men and not allowing their girls to be around who they deem to be "creeps". But decent men always underestimate who and how many men are truly this creepy, so they have no way to shelter their girls from these men.
> 
> 
> (*side note: I was having a discussion with a guy who was saying "It must be great to feel so wanted all the time, since you hear and see men trying to get your attention or talk to you or complimenting you everywhere you go...I would love to feel that sexually wanted". And I said "Well, it probably isn't like how you imagine it. To truly imagine it, you'd have to imagine that when you walked down the street, almost every MAN you passed showed that he sexually wanted you, made comments, leered at you or tried to talk to you. Would that feel sexy and good to you, or scary and threatening?" His eyes got huge and he said "UGH dear god, that would be horrible!! I get it, I get it now!")


Exactly. Men don't walk around with people leering at them, judging their appearance. They don't know how much freedom is in that. 

"Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


----------



## troubledinma

Yag-Kosha said:


> All I know is that people nowadays seem genuinely afraid in general. They'd rather text people they'll never meet than have a conversation with someone right in front of them.
> 
> As someone who looks like something right out of a Lovecraftian short story, I have to be pretty careful what I do around people. If it's at night and there is nobody around and there's a woman walking in front of me, I'll either slow down to give them more space or cross the street. Speaking to children in public is also out of the question.
> 
> I think both men and women have certain advantages/disadvantages in our current cultural climate. Women tend to get harassed/are the majority of victims when it comes to sexual assault/domestic violence. Whereas men are treated as sub-human, disposable and are encouraged from birth that they need to prove their worthiness in order to belong to the clan/community/whatever. It's the reason so many movies employ the 'coming of age' story line, where the man needs to accomplish some great feat to prove himself worthy to himself and his community.


Men are not treated as subhuman. Men are becoming little victim babies who rely too much on women for their self worth. It's exhausting for women to feel they have to emotionally care for men like this. Men are not victims. Sorry. Men are becoming whiners. They should do great things with their lives, irrespective of what value women assign to them. 

"Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


----------



## troubledinma

Dannip said:


> The struggle...
> 
> How Radical Feminism Sowed the Seeds of Our Transgender Moment
> 
> 
> Sex, Gender, and the Origin of the Culture Wars:*An Intellectual History | The Heritage Foundation


Thanks for the posts, I guess? Sorry, radical feminism is not the problem. Being transgender is not the problem. Your right wing propaganda doesn't change that. You've clearly never talked to a transgender person. They are subject to intense ridicule and violence on a daily basis. If you are picking on transgender people and feminists, you have inferiority problems. 

"Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


----------



## Dannip

troubledinma said:


> Thanks for the posts, I guess? Sorry, radical feminism is not the problem. Being transgender is not the problem. Your right wing propaganda doesn't change that. You've clearly never talked to a transgender person. They are subject to intense ridicule and violence on a daily basis. If you are picking on transgender people and feminists, you have inferiority problems.
> 
> "Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


Facts aren't propaganda. 
SPLC is a hate group: 

The Media's Use of This 'Hate Group' Label Puts Conservatives' Safety at Risk


----------



## Dannip

Dble post


----------



## Quality

Maybe - American men are MUCH more likely to be married and respectful of their wives instead of running around staring at and complimenting every woman that walks by.

Maybe - American women are generally more educated and not seeking the admiration of her physical attributes in order to boost her self-esteem.


Besides: Comparing the action of ONE man staring at you and failing to compliment you with THIS~~~>



> four young men in suits got out of a Mercedes-Benz, and they looked at me, and they said, "che bello," or "how beautiful."


Isn't the same thing. The four young men were demonstrating homosocial behavior. It's how the men interrelate with each other in packs and flash their wonderful plumage among themselves. The girl really could have been anyone.

MAYBE women can lead the trend of turning this whole compliment thing around here in the US by taking the initiative and complimenting men more. We sure love cheerleaders. They're the cutest. :wink2:


----------



## Quality

Crap...I was trying to be light-hearted but hadn't read through the whole thread before posting. 

Wow. 

Gotta compliment the landmines in this thread.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

These random men do not give equal compliments to handsome male strangers they encounter out in public. Therefore, the behaviour is sexist.


----------



## EleGirl

Quality said:


> Maybe - American men are MUCH more likely to be married and respectful of their wives instead of running around staring at and complimenting every woman that walks by.
> 
> Maybe - American women are generally more educated and not seeking the admiration of her physical attributes in order to boost her self-esteem.
> 
> 
> Besides: Comparing the action of ONE man staring at you and failing to compliment you with THIS~~~>
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't the same thing. The four young men were demonstrating homosocial behavior. It's how the men interrelate with each other in packs and flash their wonderful plumage among themselves. The girl really could have been anyone.
> 
> MAYBE women can lead the trend of turning this whole compliment thing around here in the US by taking the initiative and complimenting men more. We sure love cheerleaders. They're the cutest. :wink2:


When I was in the Army we tried this.

When the men were in formation and would pass any female over the age of about 10, they would chant things to the female. So we women decided to do the exact same thing. We just changed the words enough for the gender difference. 

Well the male drill sergeants got very angry at us women for doing this. They were yelling at us, calling us pigs for doing exactly what the men did. And these were the exact same male drill sergeants who did had the men yelling stuff to every woman they passed.

We women thought that the reaction from the men was funny and interesting. They had no problem dishing it out. But thought it was horrible when the women did it.

Interesting little experiment.


----------



## EleGirl

Hopeful Cynic said:


> These random men do not give equal compliments to handsome male strangers they encounter out in public. Therefore, the behaviour is sexist.


What was interesting when I lived in Naples, Italy was something that happened to my brother. I have a brother who is a year younger than I am. He's extremely good looking. When we were in high school he got a lot of attention from homosexual men in Naples. These men did the same thing to him that straight me did to the young girls/ladies. The cat calling, the touching, etc. 

It was bad enough that it scared my brother. That was when he decided to take self defense classes. Ended up with a black belt and a life-line passion for self defense because he found that the kind of attention that most women get was so scary that he had to do that to protect himself. Food for thought.


----------



## Quality

EleGirl said:


> When I was in the Army we tried this.
> 
> When the men were in formation and would pass any female over the age of about 10, they would chant things to the female. So we women decided to do the exact same thing. We just changed the words enough for the gender difference.
> 
> Well the male drill sergeants got very angry at us women for doing this. They were yelling at us, calling us pigs for doing exactly what the men did. And these were the exact same male drill sergeants who did had the men yelling stuff to every woman they passed.
> 
> We women thought that the reaction from the men was funny and interesting. They had no problem dishing it out. But thought it was horrible when the women did it.
> 
> Interesting little experiment.



Much of male homosocial behavior is disguised homophobic behavior. The men are doing more than showing their plumage ~ they are outwardly projecting their masculinity and heterosexual desires.

Earlier this evening I was reading some feminists that felt that this was actually what made women the targets of sexual violence|assualt {i.e. - rape culture}. This male tendency to make woman targets to prove or show their masculinity and prove to their crew {or jus themselves} that they're not gay simply escalates from cat-calling, to touching, groping and on to rape and gang rape.

At first glance, it appears your sergeants were hypocrites applying a double standard, but what might have upset them the most was the notion that you were feminizing the male targets of your chants. Maybe it was a nobler notion like they didn't appreciate seeing you women act like men and thought "boyz will be boyz, but our lady soldiers don't need to be boyz too"?????? 

I'm sure your military experience gave you more experience with the differences between the genders while in a very male environment than I could get reading a few articles. 

Did you ever experience such aggression or become fearful? Do the women need to pair up for protection or do you stick together as a whole unit most of the time.


----------



## Satya

I've learned that when a man or woman compliments me about anything (clothes, hair, general looks) I will always respond, "thank you, that's very kind" with a smile and return a compliment back. 

The men unafraid of complimenting a woman are of older generations and have more or less accepted they are (mistakenly) thought of as dirty old men, and just don't care... Or the wholeheartedly agree and just carry on. 

But yes... Can't remember the last time a younger man complimented me in any way, and I frequently compliment men, women, people of any ages. I hold doors for men. I think that radical feminism has done some damage to society. I also think that moderate feminism has done some good to society.


----------



## Blondilocks

"At first glance, it appears your sergeants were hypocrites applying a double standard, but what might have upset them the most was the notion that you were feminizing the male targets of your chants. Maybe it was a nobler notion like they didn't appreciate seeing you women act like men and thought "_pigs will be pigs_, but our lady soldiers don't need to be _pigs_ too"??????"

Fixed that for ya. There is nothing noble about bullying.


----------



## Mr. Nail

troubledinma said:


> Men are not treated as subhuman. An interesting premise. Men are becoming little victim babies who rely too much on women for their self worth. Followed quickly by abuse and name calling disproving the premise. It's exhausting for women to feel they have to emotionally care for men like this. Reversing the role of the victims you just abused. Men are not victims. Second Denial Sorry. Men are becoming whiners. Second or continued abuse and name calling. They should do great things with their lives, irrespective of what value women assign to them. You mean like Men Going Their Own Way?
> "Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Surprised no-one caught the significance of the the word "Mercedes-Benz" in the original post. The caller saw fit to mention the make of the vehicle and the ages of its occupants.

Why? Because whether a compliment from a man is welcome or not has much to do with the social status of the man making the compliment. Had these been ageing laborers stepping out of a beat-up pickup truck, the caller would instead be complaining about the four landscapers who "harassed" her. 

I once heard a story from a correspondent that was travelling with Sean Connery for a day. The two of them were traveling in a slow moving vehicle down a crowded street lined with reporters. A shapely female reporter was facing away from the car. As the car passed, Sean Connery reached out the window and grabbed the behind of female reporter. She turned around with a horrified, insulted look on her face. It took her a moment to realize that the offender was Sean Connery. That's when she smiled.


----------



## AussieRN

Equal but different and we (IMHO) should treat each other differently because of that.


----------



## Blondilocks

"Surprised no-one caught the significance of the the word "Mercedes-Benz" in the original post. The caller saw fit to mention the make of the vehicle and the ages of its occupants."

That made me chuckle. Mercedes-Benz doesn't have the cache in Europe that it has in the US. They are even used for taxis.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Blondilocks said:


> "Surprised no-one caught the significance of the the word "Mercedes-Benz" in the original post. The caller saw fit to mention the make of the vehicle and the ages of its occupants."
> 
> That made me chuckle. Mercedes-Benz doesn't have the cache in Europe that it has in the US. They are even used for taxis.


My impression was that the caller was an American. Wasn't that yours as well?


----------



## foolscotton3

I noticed that feminism has been taken over by a progressive LGBTQ agenda.

It's destroyed feminism.

Sent from my Z799VL using Tapatalk


----------



## Quality

Blondilocks said:


> "At first glance, it appears your sergeants were hypocrites applying a double standard, but what might have upset them the most was the notion that you were feminizing the male targets of your chants. Maybe it was a nobler notion like they didn't appreciate seeing you women act like men and thought "_pigs will be pigs_, but our lady soldiers don't need to be _pigs_ too"??????"
> 
> Fixed that for ya. There is nothing noble about bullying.


Very astute interjection,

Thanks.


----------



## Thor

Satya said:


> The men unafraid of complimenting a woman are of older generations and have more or less accepted they are (mistakenly) thought of as dirty old men, and just don't care... Or the wholeheartedly agree and just carry on.


I bite my tongue all the time at work, and it has reached the point I don't really think about it any more. I work with hundreds of different women through the year, but as the boss I can't say anything complimentary. Even though I don't have hire/fire authority, I am the one in charge, so legally my position is as a superior even during off duty hours. I am not going to risk my career complimenting another employee. There are too many bsc social justice warriors out there.

Last week a woman sat down next to me on the airport employee shuttle bus who smelled wonderful. She wasn't an employee of my company, but I still consciously decided not to say anything because of the likelihood of getting an unpleasant response from her.

For me, if I don't know the person, or if there is any work related association, I won't compliment them. I've been burned by doing so in the past.


----------



## Mr. Nail

Satya said:


> The men unafraid of complimenting a woman are of older generations and have more or less accepted they are (mistakenly) thought of as dirty old men, and just don't care... Or the wholeheartedly agree and just carry on.


Well, I'm Old, I'm Dirty (at least sawdust most days), My birth certificate would say I'n a man even in South Carolina.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> I bite my tongue all the time at work, and it has reached the point I don't really think about it any more. I work with hundreds of different women through the year, but as the boss I can't say anything complimentary. Even though I don't have hire/fire authority, I am the one in charge, so legally my position is as a superior even during off duty hours. I am not going to risk my career complimenting another employee. There are too many bsc social justice warriors out there.
> 
> Last week a woman sat down next to me on the airport employee shuttle bus who smelled wonderful. She wasn't an employee of my company, but I still consciously decided not to say anything because of the likelihood of getting an unpleasant response from her.
> 
> For me, if I don't know the person, or if there is any work related association, I won't compliment them. I've been burned by doing so in the past.


As a boss, would you complement the appearance or smell of a male employee? I rather doubt it. You should be treating the females in the same way. Most women do not want that kind of attention at work from any man. They just want to do their jobs.


----------



## NextTimeAround

FrenchFry said:


> Yes and no.
> 
> Like a for real fact that needs to be said over and over: *a lot of women experience extremely predatory behavior at the hands of predatory men especially during the the time that they are going through sexual development. This stuff really messes with our minds and colors our interactions.
> * This makes a lot of women extremely hesitant to accept a compliment because we have experienced what happens when it isn't a pure compliment. Some of us (me) especially.
> 
> *On the flipside, what sucks is that because there is not a surefire way to tell if a compliment is genuine or not, spidey-senses are up for everything and even though a man may be genuinely complimenting a woman, something can go off that makes us say "nuh-uh."* All of these are different for women and while there are some in common, there is no way a man can be expected to tiptoe around them all.
> 
> So, I don't blame you if you don't want to compliment. You should ALSO be mad at the men who have damaged women's ability to trust a social nicety by using it for terrible purposes. Feminism didn't do that at all.



I would rather depend on my spidey senses to protect me than be forced to wear a face veil and floor length dresses for protection.


----------



## EleGirl

Quality said:


> Much of male homosocial behavior is disguised homophobic behavior. The men are doing more than showing their plumage ~ they are outwardly projecting their masculinity and heterosexual desires.
> 
> Earlier this evening I was reading some feminists that felt that this was actually what made women the targets of sexual violence|assualt {i.e. - rape culture}. This male tendency to make woman targets to prove or show their masculinity and prove to their crew {or jus themselves} that they're not gay simply escalates from cat-calling, to touching, groping and on to rape and gang rape.
> 
> At first glance, it appears your sergeants were hypocrites applying a double standard, but what might have upset them the most was the notion that you were feminizing the male targets of your chants. Maybe it was a nobler notion like they didn't appreciate seeing you women act like men and thought "boyz will be boyz, but our lady soldiers don't need to be boyz too"??????


An interesting observation. I think it's the other side of the same coin.



Quality said:


> I'm sure your military experience gave you more experience with the differences between the genders while in a very male environment than I could get reading a few articles.
> 
> Did you ever experience such aggression or become fearful? Do the women need to pair up for protection or do you stick together as a whole unit most of the time.


What I talked about in my previous post occurred in basic training. After that, the women worked with the men, though we had our own barracks or a floor in a barracks. There were some men who were aggressive and times when it was of great concern. But most of the time it was just fine.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I think it's sad that the need to be complimented --even by strangers -- is so overwhelming that this woman calling into Rush Limbaugh's show feels the need to call into question the entire feminist movement.

When I think of various other groups of men that might dominate the society that I live in, I can't think of any other group that I would prefer other than western men. And yes, while Italian men belong to that group, they have been a little bit slow on the uptake of women's rights.

Would I trade other freedoms just to be able to bask in a few compliments on a regular basis? I don't think so.


----------



## Thor

EleGirl said:


> As a boss, would you complement the appearance or smell of a male employee? I rather doubt it. You should be treating the females in the same way. Most women do not want that kind of attention at work from any man. They just want to do their jobs.


Hetero men don't tend to talk about those kinds of things, so it would not be natural for a male to compliment another often. However, when a male coworker loses 100+ lbs, or goes on a fitness kick for a year and really gets in shape, yes I would make a comment about it. I would generally not comment to a man about his cologne, but men's cologne doesn't smell good to me. Perhaps that is why women don't wear men's cologne.

In the old days when I worked in an office, yes I would have complimented a male coworker on a really nice suit he had tailor made overseas (this happened).

My observation is that women do tend to comment to each other about their appearances, and discuss things like fragrances.

Tbh, flight attendants look hideous in their uniforms most of the time. There is little to compliment. "Hey, you look great in that blah square cut uniform made out of recycled 2 liter bottles!". Not. Or, "You smell great at the end of this 12 hr day of kids puking on your feet and sweating in the back of the metal tube all day". But if someone I have flown with numerous times gets a new attractive hair cut, why wouldn't I say something?

I've had female flight attendants hit on me, and was not insulted. I've had women compliment me and I don't find it insulting. When I lost 30 pounds and women told me I looked great (I was pretty ripped actually at that point), it was nice. I didn't take it as having an unstated meaning that they thought I was nothing other than a sex object.


----------



## Red Sonja

EleGirl said:


> As a boss, would you complement the appearance or smell of a male employee? I rather doubt it. You should be treating the females in the same way. Most women do not want that kind of attention at work from any man. They just want to do their jobs.


:iagree:

This is the thing that most people (men and women) do not understand. The workplace is not an environment where this sort of comment is appropriate because it implies a personal, more intimate context to working relationships. As @EleGirl says, I just want to do my job and not have to deal with this type of thing. The same applies to strangers regardless of their looks, status or importance; their comments on my personal appearance imply a more intimate context than that of “stranger” and that is impolite.

Think about it. I am a female executive that regularly interviews men for technical positions. How would that man react if I said “you look very handsome in that suit” or “you smell great, what is that cologne” during an interview? BTW, this has happened to me as an interviewee in the past and I can tell you that it put me in an extremely uncomfortable position.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> Hetero men don't tend to talk about those kinds of things, so it would not be natural for a male to compliment another often. However, when a male coworker loses 100+ lbs, or goes on a fitness kick for a year and really gets in shape, yes I would make a comment about it. I would generally not comment to a man about his cologne, but men's cologne doesn't smell good to me. Perhaps that is why women don't wear men's cologne.
> 
> In the old days when I worked in an office, yes I would have complimented a male coworker on a really nice suit he had tailor made overseas (this happened).
> 
> My observation is that women do tend to comment to each other about their appearances, and discuss things like fragrances.
> 
> Tbh, flight attendants look hideous in their uniforms most of the time. There is little to compliment. "Hey, you look great in that blah square cut uniform made out of recycled 2 liter bottles!". Not. Or, "You smell great at the end of this 12 hr day of kids puking on your feet and sweating in the back of the metal tube all day". But if someone I have flown with numerous times gets a new attractive hair cut, why wouldn't I say something?
> 
> I've had female flight attendants hit on me, and was not insulted. I've had women compliment me and I don't find it insulting. When I lost 30 pounds and women told me I looked great (I was pretty ripped actually at that point), it was nice. I didn't take it as having an unstated meaning that they thought I was nothing other than a sex object.


I have friend, male and female who I will complement on things like you bring up. And they would do the same with me. I worked with some of these people. So yes, even in the work place.

It's sad that "complements" to women were so prevalent at one time that it often made work places very awkward for women. The complements were not just "I like you new hair cut." They were "I had a wild dream about you last night." and then a description of the wild sex in the dream. Or male co-workers whose comments were just over the top and way too many, stalkish, etc.

As a female employee, I would risk my job to tell a boss to stop touching me and stop telling me about his wet dreams of me. And when I was a 22 year old woman supporting a husband who just had brain surgery, with medical bills in the thousands, I did not have the option to just quit my job.

Or to tell the Captain of my office in the military that it was not ok for him to constantly be professing his admiration for my ass and how much he loved me despite his being married with two children.

So we as a society had to find a way to draw a line that defined what is acceptable and not. I guess that the only line that leaves no ambiguity is to have no comments/compliments at all.

Is it the men (and women) who engage in inappropriate behavior and comments the ones who lead to the problem? 

Or is it the women, like me, who wanted our bosses to stop touching us, stop telling us about their hard ons, their wed dreams, and their not so innocent comments are the problem?


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> Hetero men don't tend to talk about those kinds of things, so it would not be natural for a male to compliment another often. However, when a male coworker loses 100+ lbs, or goes on a fitness kick for a year and really gets in shape, yes I would make a comment about it. I would generally not comment to a man about his cologne, but men's cologne doesn't smell good to me. Perhaps that is why women don't wear men's cologne.
> 
> In the old days when I worked in an office, yes I would have complimented a male coworker on a really nice suit he had tailor made overseas (this happened).
> 
> My observation is that women do tend to comment to each other about their appearances, and discuss things like fragrances.
> 
> Tbh, flight attendants look hideous in their uniforms most of the time. There is little to compliment. "Hey, you look great in that blah square cut uniform made out of recycled 2 liter bottles!". Not. Or, "You smell great at the end of this 12 hr day of kids puking on your feet and sweating in the back of the metal tube all day". But if someone I have flown with numerous times gets a new attractive hair cut, why wouldn't I say something?


Of course men do not complement each other in the same way that men complement women. The reason for the difference is that men look at good looking women as someone they can potentially have sex with. And women in the work place seldom want the men they work with to view them as potential sex partners. There would be fewer affairs at work if men and women at work stuck to distinction that your co-workers and bosses are not potential sex partners. I believe I've read that more than half of all affairs today start at work... people not respecting boundaries.



Thor said:


> I've had female flight attendants hit on me, and was not insulted. I've had women compliment me and I don't find it insulting. When I lost 30 pounds and women told me I looked great (I was pretty ripped actually at that point), it was nice. I didn't take it as having an unstated meaning that they thought I was nothing other than a sex object.


And I've have hundreds of men compliment me, hit on me, etc. And usually it's not insulting. Being hit on is not insulting. But, when I was young and being hit on all the time, it often would have been nice to just not have the constant attention, the constant comments.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Sheryl Sandberg in her book Lean In said that she felt very disrepcted when her client continually told her that she should meet his nephew (for dating purposes).


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I am physically weaker than most males. Having one "compliment" me and then start following me shouting and name calling when I politely shot him down is terrifying. 
That's the thing. Some guy can say "hello pretty lady" and I can give a "hello, have a good day" and walk off and they go their own way. Some get mad and violent. You never know, I'd much prefer no one do it. It's creepy anyway. 

Until someone has been the weaker, more vulnerable person in a situation that can go from compliment to danger in a matter of seconds, you really have no idea what it's like. 

"I was complimented by a woman once and wasn't offended" 
Good for you. Talk to me when a 6'7, 300 pound muscle man tells you that you look handsome and then follows you saying someone better teach you some manners for walking off like that. 

Enough times of that and you'll start not enjoying random compliments but rather worry what it will turn into 

Oh and please, please men stop telling us to "smile sweetie" cause I promise it makes me want to punch you in the face. 

Also - headphones in means don't speak to me. I do it on purpose. I have no music on. It's a sign that I am unavailable for conversation. Apparently I need a better one.


----------



## techmom

To the men who don't see anything wrong with giving complements to random attractive women, these men need to spend 2 years in a all-male prison facility, then they would feel what most women feel on a daily basis.

To the women who feel at a loss because men don't compliment them everyday, find something else besides your physical appearance to feel proud of, all you are doing is showing how insecure you are.

On TAM there were multiple threads on this topic and we get the same responses: Some men don't get why women are insulted by constant judgements placed on our appearance, whether it is negging or not, we just want to go about our daily lives. Also, these men like to post examples of how women behave in bars as examples of women who fall for these "complements"...News flash, women in bars or clubs are looking to be picked up, not the women who just happen to be walking down the street...Big Difference lol.

Another news flash, women in bars are not the women you want to pick up, there's a reason that they are in the bar (it's called a meat market for a reason which is why you will never find me there)

Women who want a rich guy will go with one regardless of what anyone says about it, no need to be bitter about it, they don't represent ALL WOMEN. Most women want to make a living and achieve their goals in their careers just like men do.

Some men will feel threatened by feminism no matter what, that is just what it is, so I don't even bother with their posts blaming the "fall of society" on feminism. Wow, we have same sex marriage and transgender people can exist in public without getting beaten within an inch of their lives, so because of this society is going down the crapper....NOT! LOL


----------



## EllaSuaveterre

EleGirl said:


> What do you mean by 'consent' to speak to someone.
> 
> You can speak to anyone in public that you want to. It's up to them if they want to reply to you can talk to you. They have the right not to talk to you.
> 
> And guess what, you have the right to not talk to people who speak to you too.



When I read this, my first thought was "You do??" which points to how little I know about personal boundaries. Once, at school, before I changed majors, some guy was helping me with my German pronunciation for _Heidenroslein_ and he kept telling me how beautiful I was, and, as you do, I smiled and thanked him, and I never really told him he was being creepy by following me back to class because I didn't want to hurt his feelings. This culminated in him cornering me in an elevator and trying to embrace/kiss me while I wrenched myself away from him crying, "Please, no, I'm married!!" Only then did he he apologize and step back _out of respect for my husband_, not because he just tried to make out with a girl he just met 15 minutes previous. I stepped off the elevator, panicking, and called my husband immediately, who then had to be convinced not to take off work, drive over, and hurt the guy.


----------



## EleGirl

EllaSuaveterre said:


> When I read this, my first thought was "You do??" which points to how little I know about personal boundaries.


??? Do you think that you do not have the right to not speak to anyone you do not want to speak to?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre

EleGirl said:


> ??? Do you think that you do not have the right to not speak to anyone you do not want to speak to?


I would have thought it depends on the situation. Not usually, unless they've already done something like insult you or attack you.


----------



## Herschel

This is such a false equivalency just to justify the fact you feel you can't say a chick has a nice ass.



Thor said:


> However, when a male coworker loses 100+ lbs, or goes on a fitness kick for a year and really gets in shape, yes I would make a comment about it. I would generally not comment to a man about his cologne, but men's cologne doesn't smell good to me. Perhaps that is why women don't wear men's cologne.


If a woman in your office lost 100 lbs and you told her she looked good, she wouldn't take it as you hitting on her, but as a compliment for her hard effort (just like the guy).




> In the old days when I worked in an office, yes I would have complimented a male coworker on a really nice suit he had tailor made overseas (this happened).


While someone less common, if you said to a woman, "I like that suit you are wearing, is it from Italy?" That wouldn't likely be deemed as hitting on or flirting either.



> My observation is that women do tend to comment to each other about their appearances, and discuss things like fragrances.


Dudes do it too. I have had plenty of guys I work with say, "You've been lifting/working out?" It's because the situation is known to be platonic. I wouldn't say that to a woman at work and a woman at work would not comment on my "guns". 

This isn't about feminism, it's about dudes who want to still live in the 50s and slap dat azz and say what they want. Oh, poor me, I can't compliment you on your nice cleavage!


----------



## NextTimeAround

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I would have thought it depends on the situation. Not usually, unless they've already done something like insult you or attack you.


If I am with a group of people, like at a party or some group sponsored a happy hour, I make sure that I am friendly with everyone. But I have been in situations in which people very quickly make a judgement...... and it doesn't include me. It's good to know that we always have a choice in how we treat other people. but there can sometimes consequences as well.

In more public situations, it's nice to be friendly but always put your safety and priorities first.


----------



## Herschel

On top of that, if you are in a relationship or know the other person is, and you comment on how good they look and how firm their legs are...you are a pig (male or female).


----------



## Thor

EleGirl said:


> I have friend, male and female who I will complement on things like you bring up. And they would do the same with me. I worked with some of these people. So yes, even in the work place.
> 
> It's sad that "complements" to women were so prevalent at one time that it often made work places very awkward for women. The complements were not just "I like you new hair cut." They were "I had a wild dream about you last night." and then a description of the wild sex in the dream. Or male co-workers whose comments were just over the top and way too many, stalkish, etc.
> 
> As a female employee, I would risk my job to tell a boss to stop touching me and stop telling me about his wet dreams of me. And when I was a 22 year old woman supporting a husband who just had brain surgery, with medical bills in the thousands, I did not have the option to just quit my job.
> 
> Or to tell the Captain of my office in the military that it was not ok for him to constantly be professing his admiration for my ass and how much he loved me despite his being married with two children.
> 
> So we as a society had to find a way to draw a line that defined what is acceptable and not. I guess that the only line that leaves no ambiguity is to have no comments/compliments at all.
> 
> Is it the men (and women) who engage in inappropriate behavior and comments the ones who lead to the problem?
> 
> Or is it the women, like me, who wanted our bosses to stop touching us, stop telling us about their hard ons, their wed dreams, and their not so innocent comments are the problem?


And so we have a Zero Tolerance world. There can be no rational line drawn, and for God's sake there is no way we can ever tell anyone they are overly sensitive and making way more out of something which was never intended.

There is a world of difference between being hit on by a potential boss in an interview and being told by a coworker that their new haircut looks nice. There is a world of difference between saying someone looks nice today and saying you had a wild dream about them. There is a world of difference between telling a woman on the bus she smells nice and telling her I had a wet dream about her.

And because society is unwilling to tell anybody (except a white male) they are being unreasonably over-reactive, men have learned to stfu and never give a compliment to anybody except those in close personal relationships. Because "Your new haircut looks nice" = "Do you want to feel my hard-on" as far as feminists and the courts are concerned.

I've been told by a coworker (foreign born and raised btw) she thought the first few times we flew that I disliked her or she was doing something wrong. No, I was simply not having any personal discussions with her because she is female and it jeopardizes my career if a bsc feminazi decides she was insulted if we have any non-business words.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Poor white males, not being able to compliment a woman because we've spent decades being treated as meat and only useful for our appearance and made to accept harassment and sexual assault as normal behaviour and have had our lives in danger by men who can't take no for an answer. 

Put it into perspective, is your need to tell a co-worker she looks nice really that important? 

Ftr- I dumped a guy cause he was the random compliment on pretty girls type. It's creepy and unattractive and I couldn't respect him anymore.


----------



## FrenchFry

NextTimeAround said:


> I would rather depend on my spidey senses to protect me than be forced to wear a face veil and floor length dresses for protection.


I think I would too, but I haven't experienced the flip side so I can't say for certain.


This is not meant lightly. Guys who are afraid of complimenting women--have you had bad experiences?


----------



## NextTimeAround

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Poor white males, not being able to compliment a woman because we've spent decades being treated as meat and only useful for our appearance and made to accept harassment and sexual assault as normal behaviour and have had our lives in danger by men who can't take no for an answer.
> 
> *Put it into perspective, is your need to tell a co-worker she looks nice really that important?
> *
> Ftr- I dumped a guy cause he was the random compliment on pretty girls type. It's creepy and unattractive and I couldn't respect him anymore.


Just reading the bolded made me think about the ultimate that some people try to levy ie, I have to be so careful whenever I talk to you.

that used to make me reticent. Oh, I'm so difficult to get along with. Now I simply with "and I have to be careful when I speak with you as well......."


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Poor white males, not being able to compliment a woman because we've spent decades being treated as meat and only useful for our appearance and made to accept harassment and sexual assault as normal behaviour and have had our lives in danger by men who can't take no for an answer.
> 
> Put it into perspective, is your need to tell a co-worker she looks nice really that important?
> 
> Ftr- I dumped a guy cause he was the random compliment on pretty girls type. It's creepy and unattractive and I couldn't respect him anymore.


Exactly. 1=infinity in the world of feminist reaction to any compliment. Saying something nice about a woman's physical appearance (or her fragrance) is *exactly* the same in their world as saying the only thing a woman is good for is sex. It is exactly the same to say she has a nice haircut as saying she is as stupid inept person.

As to your life being in danger, there is a simple solution but the feminists ally themselves with the political powers which oppose you having that choice.


----------



## Thor

FrenchFry said:


> This is not meant lightly. Guys who are afraid of complimenting women--have you had bad experiences?


Yes. And I've seen men's careers badly impacted by corporations in cya mode once a complaint is made. Zero tolerance is the policy by corporations and the courts, so why put my career on the line trying to be pleasant to somebody?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Thor said:


> Exactly. 1=infinity in the world of feminist reaction to any compliment. Saying something nice about a woman's physical appearance (or her fragrance) is *exactly* the same in their world as saying the only thing a woman is good for is sex. It is exactly the same to say she has a nice haircut as saying she is as stupid inept person.
> 
> *As to your life being in danger, there is a simple solution but the feminists ally themselves with the political powers which oppose you having that choice*.


do you mean to take the advice of the NRA and carry a gun?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Thor said:


> Exactly. 1=infinity in the world of feminist reaction to any compliment. Saying something nice about a woman's physical appearance (or her fragrance) is *exactly* the same in their world as saying the only thing a woman is good for is sex. It is exactly the same to say she has a nice haircut as saying she is as stupid inept person.
> 
> As to your life being in danger, there is a simple solution but the feminists ally themselves with the political powers which oppose you having that choice.


No, its not the same thing and no one is saying it is. They had to put rules in place to fix the harassment and assault that was going on. Sorry if that included your "right" to tell Betty she smells good. 

I don't like it. It doesn't make you look good. Why can't you respect that a woman doesn't want some random compliment about how she looks or smells from some guy she's probably going to think is creepy? Is it really too much to ask to keep it to yourself? 

If you are getting flack for compliments, it's because they were being creepy with it or she did not want your compliment. 

Respect that and move on. 

I'm not going to carry a gun because of jerk men. I live in Canada btw, my political standings aren't the same as your USA ones.


----------



## Thor

NextTimeAround said:


> do you mean to take the advice of the NRA and carry a gun?


I mean have the choice to defend yourself effectively in the manner you choose. Which may mean carrying a gun, or it may mean a taser or bear spray. It may mean having a loaded firearm in your home secured as makes sense for your personal situation. An armed society is indeed a polite society. But in many places dominated by progressive politics none of those choices are allowed in a substantive way.

It certainly does not mean making yourself defenseless. It does not mean following the advice of many feminists and their allies to submit to an assault.

Funny, but feminists via their political positions and whom they ally with do not seem to believe that a woman truly owns herself. She is owned by the state or by society, since she is not to be allowed defense of her body. If she is attacked, it is acceptable collateral damage in their world view.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Thor said:


> Yes. And I've seen men's careers badly impacted by corporations in cya mode once a complaint is made. Zero tolerance is the policy by corporations and the courts, so why put my career on the line trying to be pleasant to somebody?


If a complaint was made, she clearly did not want the "compliment" and I very highly doubt it was "Your haircut sure looks good Jane!" 

My bet is he was being creepy, harassing, crossing the line and not understanding signs or straight up telling him to stop. 

HR doesn't get involved for "nice haircut". Maybe hear her side.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

People don't seem to understand what feminist means. 

There are many conservative feminists. Liberal feminists. I'm a submissive feminists. I belong to my Dominant who does what he wants to me. My choice. 

There are feminists with guns, feminists who are police officers or fancy lawyers, sahms and literally everything in between. 

Feminists can hunt or sew or cook or do calculus for fun. 

They can be single, married, gay, straight 

There is not 1 group ALL feminists belong to other than "feminist"


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No, its not the same thing and no one is saying it is. They had to put rules in place to fix the harassment and assault that was going on. Sorry if that included your "right" to tell Betty she smells good.
> 
> I don't like it. It doesn't make you look good. Why can't you respect that a woman doesn't want some random compliment about how she looks or smells from some guy she's probably going to think is creepy? Is it really too much to ask to keep it to yourself?
> 
> If you are getting flack for compliments, it's because they were being creepy with it or she did not want your compliment.
> 
> Respect that and move on.
> 
> I'm not going to carry a gun because of jerk men. I live in Canada btw, my political standings aren't the same as your USA ones.


I'm not going to waste my time going back to do all the quotes, but multiple women here have recounted their true harassment experiences, followed immediately by saying compliments are not wanted. That means they see a compliment as harassment. 1 does = infinity, as you have stated. You don't want compliments, because you immediately believe it to be creepy or stalkerish. You infer a motive which you have no way of knowing if it is accurate. A simple compliment to you does in fact equal something negative.

To put it slightly differently, something intended to be a nice gesture is only seen as a negative. There is no such thing in your world or the world of modern feminism for a compliment which is a positive.

If a woman doesn't want a compliment, all she has to say in response to a compliment is she doesn't want compliments. At that point any further advances by the other person would indeed be harassment. This used to be the legal standard, btw, 30+ years ago.

Is it creepy to hold a door for a woman? I've been cursed out for doing so. Must be all I really wanted was for her to give me a bj right there in the entranceway, right? Because, you know, patriarchy and all that.

Neither I nor the NRA want to force you to carry any particular object for self defense. But I do believe you as a human have a basic right to choose to do so if you want to, rather than be forced to be defenseless against superior physical strength.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If a complaint was made, she clearly did not want the "compliment" and I very highly doubt it was "Your haircut sure looks good Jane!"
> 
> My bet is he was being creepy, harassing, crossing the line and not understanding signs or straight up telling him to stop.
> 
> HR doesn't get involved for "nice haircut". Maybe hear her side.


I don't need to hear her side. I know the legal standard and the HR policy standard where I work. I have read comments in this thread and in fact numerous other threads on this same topic on TAM. The standard is Zero Tolerance. What was actually said does not matter. The intent of the person does not matter. All that matters is the woman reports she felt harassed by the behavior.

It could also be a man reporting he felt harassed, though that is likely rare. It could be a gay person reporting feeling harassed. So this isn't simply a male harassing a female.

As a result I do not compliment coworkers. I do not ask coworkers out on dates. Virtually all the men I work with and have had this discussion with say the same thing. The risk to our jobs and careers is immense if a woman complains. So rather than say something nice to a woman, we say nothing.

I used to think people liked receiving compliments. Many probably still do. But there are too many reactive people who infer some horrible motive and get crazy if complimented. So why bother trying to do something nice for somebody whether they be a coworker or random stranger?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

There are positive compliments in my world. Those are given by people who know me, spend time with me, who's company I enjoy. 

Not just some guy who walks past and tells me I smell good. Rule of thumb, don't compliment a woman you don't know. It's weird and unwanted. 

For the guy who you see cross your path now and then,
Go ahead and say my haircut is nice. Don't be all trump creepy about how hot I am. Don't tell me I look prettier when I smile. Don't comment on my body. 

And if it were as easy to say "I don't want a compliment" we'd have done it by now. 

Again- complimenting random women you have no relationship with is not your right. We don't like it, respect that.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There are positive compliments in my world. Those are given by people who know me, spend time with me, who's company I enjoy.
> 
> Not just some guy who walks past and tells me I smell good. Rule of thumb, don't compliment a woman you don't know. It's weird and unwanted.
> 
> For the guy who you see cross your path now and then,
> Go ahead and say my haircut is nice. Don't be all trump creepy about how hot I am. Don't tell me I look prettier when I smile. Don't comment on my body.
> 
> And if it were as easy to say "I don't want a compliment" we'd have done it by now.
> 
> Again- complimenting random women you have no relationship with is not your right. We don't like it, respect that.


It is not my right to say what I think? Really? It is morally wrong, it is encroaching on a person's rights, for someone to compliment them?

You have really proven my point that in your world a compliment is harassment. 1=infinity. You take a compliment as some sort of attack on you, not as someone saying something nice to you. In your mind, there is something insulting about a compliment.

Funny that you speak for all women as not liking compliments. I hear from older women and from non-north American women that they like compliments. There is something in the water in North America apparently, since the 1960's.

I no longer presume a woman wearing a nice fragrance wants people to notice it. I no longer presume a woman gets a haircut so as to look nice. I no longer presume women want it noticed if they lose a bunch of weight and get in shape. The original question on this thread was if modern feminism is destroying male/female relationships. I would say it certainly has.


----------



## troubledinma

Thor said:


> It is not my right to say what I think? Really? It is morally wrong, it is encroaching on a person's rights, for someone to compliment them?
> 
> You have really proven my point that in your world a compliment is harassment. 1=infinity. You take a compliment as some sort of attack on you, not as someone saying something nice to you. In your mind, there is something insulting about a compliment.
> 
> Funny that you speak for all women as not liking compliments. I hear from older women and from non-north American women that they like compliments. There is something in the water in North America apparently, since the 1960's.
> 
> I no longer presume a woman wearing a nice fragrance wants people to notice it. I no longer presume a woman gets a haircut so as to look nice. I no longer presume women want it noticed if they lose a bunch of weight and get in shape. The original question on this thread was if modern feminism is destroying male/female relationships. I would say it certainly has.


It is wrong to think you can say anything you want free of consequences. You sound really personally hurt and offended by women standing up to you. Your examples are telling. Do you ever compliment a woman on her thoughts? Or accomplishments? Or humor? Or her choice of book? Or choice of music? You list physical traits and then expect to be patted on the back for it. Please proceed with this fantasy that it is "feminism" (as YOU define it) that it to blame for your troubles. 

"Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

They may want attention, just not from you. They want it from their husbands, boyfriends, the guy they flirt with, their female or male bffs. Sometimes they just do it for themselves. I know I do. 

If you know a woman well enough to know if she likes compliments then go for it. If you don't then she doesn't want them from you. 

It's not that hard to understand. 
Male and female relations are just fine. I've only had 1 issue with a guy giving creepy compliments to women on fb and instagram and in public. Last I checked he still can't keep a woman for the exact same reason. It's creepy. Stop it. 

For the most part men are respectful and decent and know how to have a conversation. Very few have let this "no complimenting random women you don't know on their looks or smell" thing hurt their game. 

Not like that was helping them anyway.... 

If a man knows no other way to have a male/female relationship than to cat call and throw random compliments at girls he doesn't know then he already had problems.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> I no longer presume a woman wearing a nice fragrance wants people to notice it. I no longer presume a woman gets a haircut so as to look nice. I no longer presume women want it noticed if they lose a bunch of weight and get in shape. *The original question on this thread was if modern feminism is destroying male/female relationships. *I would say it certainly has.


I don't think so. I have a very good relationship with my husband and I love his compliments to me. What's great with my husband is that he'c comfortable telling me the truth ie your breath smells; that dress is too revealing .... so when he does say something positive, I believe him.

yes, doling out compliments can be a minefield. Suppose you compliment child on something that doesn't please the parents. I don't complain that the world is going to pot because I lost my "right" to say IMO nice things to children.

Thankfully, I don't need validation from strangers. A nice smile and "lovely day" is enough for me.

And yes I do think that compliments can sinister. I noticed that my parents would do stroke and poke on me. Sorry, because you said something nice to does not buy you the right to be negative when I didn't ask for your opinion.

Tell us Thor, seriously, with your end of the world admonitions here due to the fact that women don't like your opinion on something, what really spurred this campaign on for you?


----------



## FrenchFry

Thor said:


> I'm not going to waste my time going back to do all the quotes, but multiple women here have recounted their true harassment experiences, followed immediately by saying compliments are not wanted. That means they see a compliment as harassment. 1 does = infinity, as you have stated. You don't want compliments, because you immediately believe it to be creepy or stalkerish. You infer a motive which you have no way of knowing if it is accurate. A simple compliment to you does in fact equal something negative.
> 
> To put it slightly differently, something intended to be a nice gesture is only seen as a negative. There is no such thing in your world or the world of modern feminism for a compliment which is a positive.
> 
> If a woman doesn't want a compliment, all she has to say in response to a compliment is she doesn't want compliments. At that point any further advances by the other person would indeed be harassment. This used to be the legal standard, btw, 30+ years ago.
> 
> Is it creepy to hold a door for a woman? I've been cursed out for doing so. Must be all I really wanted was for her to give me a bj right there in the entranceway, right? Because, you know, patriarchy and all that.
> 
> Neither I nor the NRA want to force you to carry any particular object for self defense. But I do believe you as a human have a basic right to choose to do so if you want to, rather than be forced to be defenseless against superior physical strength.


I get that you are being a bit hyperbolic, but I'll take a chance anyways.

I get compliments all the time. I've got a nice face, I'm petite and bubbly. 99% of the time, these compliments are one-offs, welcome and I return them in kind. 99.99% of my interactions are pleasant, 99% of the time, I'm not remotely attracted to the person who is complimenting me. The 1% of time I am it's like "oh hey, cute dude compliments." 

I've also been assaulted for not accepting a guys number. For simply saying "thank you," and putting my head down. I've been followed for blocks. I've been called names, had a person try to grab me and put me in their call while slowing down to whistle at me. 

Compliments are not necessarily harassment. However, what is true in all of my personal experiences is that I could not immediately sense that a simple compliment was going to immediately turn into something really, really bad. The men who do this stuff aren't out there with signs saying "I will grab your arm and spit in your face if you do not talk to me after I compliment you."

These are not men intending to be nice. These men, by using something intended to be nice for nefarious purposes are the reason those lines have to be drawn and drawn hard. They might not be perfect but if you honestly do not want to give compliments out of fear of retribution I am sympathetic but not super unhappy for I have experienced the unfortunate consequences of accepting all compliments as simply nice things. 

Like @faithfulwife said though, men still do it and seeing as 99% of those are nice, I keep accepting them. I would get zero sympathy from the NRA for shooting a dude though, that is really funny.


----------



## Thor

troubledinma said:


> It is wrong to think you can say anything you want free of consequences. You sound really personally hurt and offended by women standing up to you. Your examples are telling. Do you ever compliment a woman on her thoughts? Or accomplishments? Or humor? Or her choice of book? Or choice of music? You list physical traits and then expect to be patted on the back for it. Please proceed with this fantasy that it is "feminism" (as YOU define it) that it to blame for your troubles.
> 
> "Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterward."


I'm bemused and confused by a woman *****ing at me for holding a door open. Hurt? No. Lesson learned, though, that acts of kindness are frequently taken as insults. It is easier and less unpleasant for me to not make an effort towards strangers or coworkers. Outside of friendships already established, there is no reason for me to show kindness to strangers. Not when it results in a tongue lashing in public or carries the risk of harming my career.

You see, there really are consequences for me saying something kind to somebody. My job and career are on the line. That is worst case, but certainly I can get negative responses from women who somehow infer that complimenting her haircut means that I think she is incapable, stupid, boring, has poor taste in music, etc. Your examples are exactly what I was talking about earlier.

I don't hear what music she plays in her car. I don't know if the stranger on the bus does fantastic work on her job. I have no idea if a coworker is an accomplished musician or mountain climber outside of work. When I observe a job well done at work I do compliment it, btw. But if I say something about a fragrance you and like minded modern feminists immediately calculate it means the only thing I am valuing in the woman is the chance I might have sex with her.

My troubles? What troubles? I simply do not make an extra effort to do anything for a stranger or a coworker which could be result in a negative response. Precisely because she could have your mentality that I am insulting her somehow. It may be a colder more impersonal world, but I avoid troubles that way.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If you know a woman well enough to know if she likes compliments then go for it. If you don't then she doesn't want them from you.
> 
> It's not that hard to understand.


I know many women who disagree with you. But that's ok, you are entitled to your opinion. Because of so many women who agree with you, men have modified their behavior to not compliment women. And that is the point, the relationship between male and female has changed. This is a modern American (and apparently Canadian) phenomenon. I conclude it is due to radical feminism since the 1960's.

I think the only disagreement we have is that I see a compliment as saying something nice about someone, with the intent of making them feel good. The person's efforts to look good are recognized, which should please them. You, however, see compliments as a threat or some form of harassment. You don't want your efforts to look good to be recognized outside of your inner circle. You interpret compliments as an insult. Recognizing a physical characteristic is taken by you to be commentary that your other characteristics are either not valued or are somehow deficient or unimportant. Which is the modern feminist position.


----------



## Thor

NextTimeAround said:


> And yes I do think that compliments can sinister. I noticed that my parents would do stroke and poke on me. Sorry, because you said something nice to does not buy you the right to be negative when I didn't ask for your opinion.


1=infinity. Since your parents did some kind of emotional abuse to you (I've never heard of stroke and poke, so I'm guessing some kind of abuse thing), you see compliments as sinister. You react negatively to compliments unless you are in a safe situation where you know the person well.



NextTimeAround said:


> Tell us Thor, seriously, with your end of the world admonitions here due to the fact that women don't like your opinion on something, what really spurred this campaign on for you?


My campaign was responding to the OP that yes I think modern feminism is destroying male/female relationships. Then the piling on started and I've responded to specific posts, like yours I've quoted in this response, which were directed at me. I've not said the end of the world is here, so I'm not sure where that came from.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

The men I work with are mostly 65+ and from a time where harassment was just accepted. I get a lot of sweet cheeks, honey, baby. Guys complimenting my cleavage, butt, asking me if I'm on birth control (weird but it's happened more than once), if my husband sleeps with me, stuff like "if I was your husband I'd never let you out of my sight"or how could my man let me out of the house. 
Some trying to touch, some obviously ogling me to the point of discomfort. 
When I was pregnant I got "you should have told him to pull it out sooner" or "Score, can't get you pregnant when you already are!"

I don't think guys understand what it is like to be treated this way. There are very real reasons for 0 tolerance for harassment policies that trump your need to compliment women. 

Also, I've never considered a "you look nice today" as harassment and I really think that is a straw man argument. Men aren't getting fired and complained about and reported to HR for saying something like that. They just aren't.


----------



## Thor

FrenchFry said:


> I get that you are being a bit hyperbolic, but I'll take a chance anyways.


Actually not really.



FrenchFry said:


> I get compliments all the time. I've got a nice face, I'm petite and bubbly. 99% of the time, these compliments are one-offs, welcome and I return them in kind. 99.99% of my interactions are pleasant, 99% of the time, I'm not remotely attracted to the person who is complimenting me. The 1% of time I am it's like "oh hey, cute dude compliments."
> 
> I've also been assaulted for not accepting a guys number. For simply saying "thank you," and putting my head down. I've been followed for blocks. I've been called names, had a person try to grab me and put me in their call while slowing down to whistle at me.
> 
> Compliments are not necessarily harassment. However, what is true in all of my personal experiences is that I could not immediately sense that a simple compliment was going to immediately turn into something really, really bad. The men who do this stuff aren't out there with signs saying "I will grab your arm and spit in your face if you do not talk to me after I compliment you."
> 
> These are not men intending to be nice. These men, by using something intended to be nice for nefarious purposes are the reason those lines have to be drawn and drawn hard. They might not be perfect but if you honestly do not want to give compliments out of fear of retribution I am sympathetic but not super unhappy for I have experienced the unfortunate consequences of accepting all compliments as simply nice things.
> 
> Like @faithfulwife said though, men still do it and seeing as 99% of those are nice, I keep accepting them. I would get zero sympathy from the NRA for shooting a dude though, that is really funny.


Which has resulted in Zero Tolerance. While admittedly your experience is 99% of men who compliment you are genuinely nice, the reaction in the larger society has been to vilify all compliments coming from men as being a threat or harassment of some sort. Rather than on a societal level approach it from the standpoint that some very small % of men are engaging in bad behavior, we simply make it unacceptable for any man to give compliments.

As for shooting a dude, you would in fact get plenty of backing from the NRA and the millions of NRA members if it was justified self defense. I hope you were not implying the NRA somehow condones violence against women. If so you are very badly misinformed.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Again is there ANY proof that men are getting in trouble for comments like 

"Nice haircut!" Or "you look nice today Jane!" 

For real. The zero tolerance policy is for harassment. You're taking things way out of context. 

Ps- most women don't even report harassment at work. If they do they have usually dealt with it a long time and tried to resolve it on their own first. Those are statistics. 
Have any for the # of men being fired for telling a girl you like her shoes or hair cut?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

FrenchFry said:


> I would get zero sympathy from the NRA for shooting a dude though, that is really funny.


You were doing well and then the hamster just fell out of the wheel with that last statement.

The NRA is pretty big on publicizing events when a legally armed citizen repels a threat, be it robbery, assault, domestic violence, or other illegal or potentially life threatening event. In a number of cases, these have been women shooting men. They get the same kudos from the NRA as any other such event.


----------



## Thor

Yag-Kosha said:


> I don't think anyone has a problem with the textbook definition of feminism. The problem comes with all the additional concepts/ideas that get thrown into the feminist framework, like: patriarchy theory, micro-aggressions, toxic masculinity, etc.
> 
> I think feminism as we see it today exists in large part for corporate reasons. There's a lot of money to be made under the feminist umbrella.
> 
> I'll leave a video below from Erin Pizzey. It's long but well worth the watch.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnUwxxijr3g


Erin Pizzey appears in the documentary "Red Pill" on Netflix. She discusses more specifically how men are victims of domestic violence as frequently as women, and how there were no shelters which would allow male DV victims in. It was a pretty good documentary.


----------



## EleGirl

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I would have thought it depends on the situation. Not usually, unless they've already done something like insult you or attack you.



Some, male or female, starts talking to you in pubic .... why do you think you have to talk to that person? You can just ignore them, walk away, whatever. You don't have to talk to them. How do you not know that?


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Again is there ANY proof that men are getting in trouble for comments like
> 
> "Nice haircut!" Or "you look nice today Jane!"
> 
> For real. The zero tolerance policy is for harassment. You're taking things way out of context.
> 
> Ps- most women don't even report harassment at work. If they do they have usually dealt with it a long time and tried to resolve it on their own first. Those are statistics.
> Have any for the # of men being fired for telling a girl you like her shoes or hair cut?


I know men who have been disciplined and sent for diversity training based on any complaint whatsoever. The company goes into cya mode with any complaint no matter how unsubstantiated or trivial. I know men who have been fired based on a complaints by former partners who willingly were involved but then later on decided to complain. He said, she said, which means he is guilty by default.

This is not to say there is never harassment. What I'm saying is the zero tolerance policy is a direct result of the modern radical feminist ruleset, which has had a significant chilling effect on male/female relationships.

No longer is it a basic presumption for men that a good way to meet potential future spouses or serious relationships is at work. Much more common is the indelicate phrase "you don't poop where you eat". I have met women at work I would consider dating based on the interactions we've had, but I won't even socialize with them outside of work in case they decide they have been harassed somehow.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> Exactly. 1=infinity in the world of feminist reaction to any compliment. Saying something nice about a woman's physical appearance (or her fragrance) is *exactly* the same in their world as saying the only thing a woman is good for is sex. It is exactly the same to say she has a nice haircut as saying she is as stupid inept person.
> 
> *As to your life being in danger, there is a simple solution but the feminists ally themselves *with the political powers which oppose you having that choice.


What is the simple solution?


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> I mean have the choice to defend yourself effectively in the manner you choose. Which may mean carrying a gun, or it may mean a taser or bear spray. It may mean having a loaded firearm in your home secured as makes sense for your personal situation. An armed society is indeed a polite society. But in many places dominated by progressive politics none of those choices are allowed in a substantive way.
> 
> It certainly does not mean making yourself defenseless. It does not mean following the advice of many feminists and their allies to submit to an assault.
> 
> Funny, but feminists via their political positions and whom they ally with do not seem to believe that a woman truly owns herself. She is owned by the state or by society, since she is not to be allowed defense of her body. If she is attacked, it is acceptable collateral damage in their world view.


LOL.... "feminists" are not one group of people with one group-think. 

I know lots of women who self identify as feminists an many of them take self defense classes, they own fire arms, some conceal carry, carry pepper spray, tasters (where legal), etc. From the sounds of it you would be pretty surprise if you knew who all were carrying some kind of protection.

Women are told to submit to the assault when they have no way out of it. When they are over powered. Why? Because at that point if they fight back they are usually killed.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Thor said:


> No longer is it a basic presumption for men that a good way to meet potential future spouses or serious relationships is at work. Much more common is the indelicate phrase "you don't poop where you eat". I have met women at work I would consider dating based on the interactions we've had, but I won't even socialize with them outside of work in case they decide they have been harassed somehow.


Work has always been a iffy place to meet a spouse. You date, you break up. It's awkward. You date a superior, it's preferential treatment and your co-workers are pissed. You have to peer review your partner, awkward. 

I don't blame workplaces for wanting to avoid it. 

There would not have been a need for 0 tolerance policies if there wasn't harassment. Sometimes the bad apples spoil the bunch. Blame THEM, not the people who finally said ok, no harassment is acceptable. 

Blame the men who harassed women and the structure that was in place giving women no voice to stop it for why a 0 tolerance policy had to happen. Your blaming the victim essentially instead of the perpetrators. 

Pretend you're at a daycare. John and Joe keep hitting Sue with a toy. Sue complains. But there isn't really a rule in place so she just asks them not to do it and they roll their eyes that girls are too sensitive. Next day they do it again, Sue complains. Finally the teacher makes a 0 tolerance for hitting rule. Now no one can do it. Do you blame Sue or the boys hitting her?


----------



## Thor

EleGirl said:


> What is the simple solution?


Being equipped with whatever tool one believes is necessary for the situation at hand. Being afraid of compliments because the guy might become a stalker or rapist is irrational, but is based on a feeling of helplessness. The vast majority of men who make compliments will not become violent or threatening, yet, apparently, women are *literally* feeling as if they are under threat if someone not within their inner circle compliments them. The solution is to learn skills and have tools so that A) there is no need to have an overwhelming helpless feeling every time a male compliments a woman, and B) be able to deal with the unlikely but possible situation of violence arising from such an interaction.

Modern radical feminism aligns itself with the progressive liberal left, and opposes women being trained or equipped for effective self defense. The cynic in me sees this as an effective strategy to gain and retain power over a group which feels itself constantly under threat and helpless to resist. As long as men are the violent oppressors, to the point where even marital sex is rape according to some, and as long as the women are prevented from being confident in their ability to resist, those in power remain the necessary protectors.

Pink Pistols is a pro self defense organization for the LGBTQ demographic. They are shunned by liberal leaders who otherwise are vocal supporters of LGBTQ rights. You can't keep a dependent class if they are self-sufficient.


----------



## Yag-Kosha

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Your blaming the victim essentially instead of the perpetrators.


I am curious. Is asking the victim what happened and for the details and looking into her accusations in order to corroborate her story before any actions are taken also considered victim blaming?


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> Erin Pizzey appears in the documentary "Red Pill" on Netflix. She discusses more specifically how men are victims of domestic violence as frequently as women, and how there were no shelters which would allow male DV victims in. It was a pretty good documentary.


It is untrue that there are no shelters that allow male victims of domestic violence. There are many that do. Every one that worked with have since the early 1990's. Most shelters only take adults, men/women, who have children with them.

Further, this discussion is a thread jack on this thread. If you want to about this, start another thread.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Yag-Kosha said:


> I am curious. Is asking the victim what happened and for the details and looking into her accusations in order to corroborate her story before any actions are taken also considered victim blaming?


How would it be? 
Assuming she must have done something to encourage it would be a form on victim blaming (ie well she wore a shirt that shows her cleavage so of course men are going to comment on them!) 

But what happened? Did anyone witness it? Do you have any proof in the form of emails, work cameras, etc. Is getting facts. 

Most places can not do anything without proof or a witness or a history of complaints. 

Despite what Thor says, a woman walking in and saying "John said my haircut was nice" isn't going to result in anything. 

Most work place harassment goes unreported. Still. It's not as simple as "tattle and they get fired". Many women still feel their job or reputation is at risk by reporting on the first place. They say something, guy gets a slap on the wrist or they tell her they can't do anything without proof and she gets it worse. 

It is extremely bad in my province as we have many oil field, labour jobs that women are trying to get into. Harassment is out of control in many work places and they had to crack down. Still, women get harassed and are too scared to speak up. Feel they need to toughen up and deal with it. Being told it's what they "signed up for" when they got into that field. 

Men are worried about taking away their ability to flirt with girls they don't know at work when we are still fighting to just be able to do our jobs without being sexually harassed.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> Being equipped with whatever tool one believes is necessary for the situation at hand. Being afraid of compliments because the guy might become a stalker or rapist is irrational, but is based on a feeling of helplessness. The vast majority of men who make compliments will not become violent or threatening, yet, apparently, women are *literally* feeling as if they are under threat if someone not within their inner circle compliments them. The solution is to learn skills and have tools so that A) there is no need to have an overwhelming helpless feeling every time a male compliments a woman, and B) be able to deal with the unlikely but possible situation of violence arising from such an interaction.
> 
> Modern radical feminism aligns itself with the progressive liberal left, and opposes women being trained or equipped for effective self defense. The cynic in me sees this as an effective strategy to gain and retain power over a group which feels itself constantly under threat and helpless to resist. As long as men are the violent oppressors, to the point where even marital sex is rape according to some, and as long as the women are prevented from being confident in their ability to resist, those in power remain the necessary protectors.
> 
> Pink Pistols is a pro self defense organization for the LGBTQ demographic. They are shunned by liberal leaders who otherwise are vocal supporters of LGBTQ rights. You can't keep a dependent class if they are self-sufficient.


Again, you attempt to lump all women who self identify as feminists, or who do not want random men telling them things like they smell good, into one bucket... Many women take self defense, conceal carry, and carry other defensive items.


----------



## EleGirl

The discussion here about domestic violence is a thread jack. If you want to discuss domestic violence, start your own thread on it. The thread jack stops now.


----------



## Yag-Kosha

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> How would it be?


I agree with the rest of your post. The reason I asked is because there's a fair number of people who believe that simply asking for the details equivocates to disbelief and victim blaming. 

Remember the Ghomeshi case? The #Webelievesurvivors campaign and all of that. Zero evidence that he sexually assaulted anyone and a lot of evidence that the accusers actively lied. Yet the public outcry for the accusers was enormous.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Despite what Thor says, a woman walking in and saying "John said my haircut was nice" isn't going to result in anything.


No, what happens is Jane feels threatened by any compliment. Who knows, maybe John is going to stalk her now, or maybe it was actually an offensive insult to her professional abilities. There's that secret meaning implied by the compliment, which she finds offensive. So she doesn't report that he said she has a nice haircut. She says he makes unwanted comments about her physical appearance. She says she feels uncomfortable in his presence. She says he sometimes follows her to the coffee machine or seeks her out in the cafeteria at lunch. So then John gets called into HR for a talking to. A copy of the complaint is put in his personnel file. He probably gets sent for special training, which is also noted in his personnel file.

Meanwhile, Bill and Joe witnessed Jane being *****y to John when he complimented her new haircut. They didn't know John got called into the office but they sure noticed her rude reaction. Bill and Joe vow to stfu and not compliment coworkers any more. It just isn't worth the unpleasantness. They modify their interactions with women. And that is the answer to the question asked in the original post. Modern feminism has led to this.

Which all has nothing to do with real genuine harassment on the job. There have been rules and laws against it for a long time. Radical feminism has redrawn the line to where simple genuine compliments are now harassment. Numerous women on this thread have said it is so, and men certainly believe that is the standard which will be used in the event of a complaint.


----------



## Thor

EleGirl said:


> Again, you attempt to lump all women who self identify as feminists, or who do not want random men telling them things like they smell good, into one bucket... Many women take self defense, conceal carry, and carry other defensive items.


I have repeatedly used the phrases "modern feminism", "radical feminism", and "feminazi". I am not putting all women or all feminists into one bucket. Of course there is a spectrum within any large group. There certainly are conservative religious women who identify as feminists but who do not support the radical beliefs or goals of the big name feminist groups. There are even atheist lesbian women like one of my daughters who support equal rights but not the anti civil rights policies of the modern, radical, feminazi progressive left regarding self defense. The mainstream leadership of modern liberalism is firmly in the anti-self defense camp.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> I have repeatedly used the phrases "modern feminism", "radical feminism", and "feminazi". I am not putting all women or all feminists into one bucket. Of course there is a spectrum within any large group. There certainly are conservative religious women who identify as feminists but who do not support the radical beliefs or goals of the big name feminist groups. There are even atheist lesbian women like one of my daughters who support equal rights but not the anti civil rights policies of the modern, radical, feminazi progressive left regarding self defense. The mainstream leadership of modern liberalism is firmly in the anti-self defense camp.


Then way go on about some subgroups of people who most likely have nothing to do with most women, even most women who self identify as feminist?

It's next to impossible to even name which people fall under those subtitles since they actually have no definitions that are accepted.


----------



## BetrayedDad

tech-novelist said:


> Calling a girl a "stupid ****" is *precisely *a PUA tactic. Of course it doesn't work all the time, but it does work sometimes.


Wasn't some PUA trickery in this case. This guy was a hardcore red piller after a woman tricked him into getting pregnant with his now kid.

He had no reason to lie and he told me straight up he had ZERO interest and only banged her cause she was literally THROWING herself at him.

Even after calling her a bunch of names and telling her to go away repeatedly. Such is the life of a Chad...


----------



## NextTimeAround

It's strange that no one so far has mentioned how compliments are a tool of grooming and this is one reason why someone should a little bit protective when it occurs. 

If something sounds authentic, then I'll say thank you. But I have been in situations in which I have been showered with compliments. It comes across as infantilising. In a specific situation, my (ex)H said, "she must like you, she compliments you all the time." As if that is the sum total of a friendship.

There is the concept of "damning with faint praise." ie "Great report...... did someone help you with it?"

One needs also to be careful not just about gender issues but ethnicity issues when handing over compliments. If a white woman were to say to me "I love your hair, it's so straight / thick / long......." I would wonder if she thought all black women must look like Lupita N' Yongo...... for example.

I once dated a guy who, I noticed, had all those "how to make people like you" type books on his bookshelf. 
yes, I've read them, too. inevitably, they all have a chapter on how you can never go wrong giving someone a compliment. He would shower me with compliments quite often about things I didn't care about. It became annoying. Looking back on the relationship, he was very manipulative. 

Regarding Trump's faux pas in Paris, it looked as if he was judging Macron's wife in a contest. Putting his wife, Melania, on notice that she now knows the standard for when she gets to be Macron's wife's age. And all this coming from some big fat, pock mocked rat's nest pompadour *******.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Thor said:


> No, what happens is Jane feels threatened by any compliment. Who knows, maybe John is going to stalk her now, or maybe it was actually an offensive insult to her professional abilities. There's that secret meaning implied by the compliment, which she finds offensive. So she doesn't report that he said she has a nice haircut. She says he makes unwanted comments about her physical appearance. She says she feels uncomfortable in his presence. She says he sometimes follows her to the coffee machine or seeks her out in the cafeteria at lunch. So then John gets called into HR for a talking to. A copy of the complaint is put in his personnel file. He probably gets sent for special training, which is also noted in his personnel file.
> 
> Meanwhile, Bill and Joe witnessed Jane being *****y to John when he complimented her new haircut. They didn't know John got called into the office but they sure noticed her rude reaction. Bill and Joe vow to stfu and not compliment coworkers any more. It just isn't worth the unpleasantness. They modify their interactions with women. And that is the answer to the question asked in the original post. Modern feminism has led to this.
> 
> Which all has nothing to do with real genuine harassment on the job. There have been rules and laws against it for a long time. Radical feminism has redrawn the line to where simple genuine compliments are now harassment. Numerous women on this thread have said it is so, and men certainly believe that is the standard which will be used in the event of a complaint.


So now Jane, Bill and Joe can just do their job without worrying who looks and smells nice. It's not a bar to pick up women, it's a workplace. Do your job. 

No one is saying one simple compliment on a woman's hair or perfume is harassment. It can become harassment, it can cross the line, it can be unwanted and a distraction from your job. So just don't do it at all and no one has to worry about it. 

Some men do not understand the difference between simple compliment and trump-style creepy. 
So instead of having to list all the types of flirting and compliments you can and can't give a co-worker on her looks, how about just don't at all. It's really not that hard. You lose nothing. You gain respect by not being "that guy" who flirts with all the pretty ladies and comments on their looks. We know who "that guy" is. He isn't favourable. We avoid him. He is often in groups of other "that guy" men who high five themselves while talking about how hot Jane looks today. We just want to do our damn job 

Picture yourself a professional woman, focused on her job and some guy wants to call you out on how pretty you are and must keep your boss really happy. 

It isn't needed or wanted in the workplace or the sidewalk or the grocery store. 

The system in place before was clearly not working as so many women were still being harassed and not speaking up. Still aren't now but it's getting better.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> So now Jane, Bill and Joe can just do their job without worrying who looks and smells nice. It's not a bar to pick up women, it's a workplace. Do your job.
> 
> No one is saying one simple compliment on a woman's hair or perfume is harassment. It can become harassment, it can cross the line, it can be unwanted and a distraction from your job. So just don't do it at all and no one has to worry about it.
> 
> Some men do not understand the difference between simple compliment and trump-style creepy.
> So instead of having to list all the types of flirting and compliments you can and can't give a co-worker on her looks, how about just don't at all. It's really not that hard. You lose nothing. You gain respect by not being "that guy" who flirts with all the pretty ladies and comments on their looks. We know who "that guy" is. He isn't favourable. We avoid him. He is often in groups of other "that guy" men who high five themselves while talking about how hot Jane looks today. We just want to do our damn job
> 
> Picture yourself a professional woman, focused on her job and some guy wants to call you out on how pretty you are and must keep your boss really happy.
> 
> It isn't needed or wanted in the workplace or the sidewalk or the grocery store.
> 
> The system in place before was clearly not working as so many women were still being harassed and not speaking up. Still aren't now but it's getting better.


I don't understand your or the other women's vitriol against me on this thread. *Your side has already won this battle in the workplace*. _I do not compliment women at work._ All the men I've talked to over the last 35 years of my adult working life have stated the same things I have said on this thread. It is not worth the unpleasant responses we get if we give a genuine compliment. It is not worth risking our jobs and careers over saying something nice to somebody. We do not approach coworkers for dates or socialize with them outside of work hours. I have male coworkers who on a trip will not eat alone with a female coworker in a restaurant. You have won. Men are staying away from women socially when there is a connection to work.

1=infinity. A compliment may be taken as harassment, as you and several other women on this thread have stated is the case for you. We get it. We are the enemy, and we have been warned, yes in writing in the corporate policy manual and in our annual company training.

I was brought up that giving a genuine compliment is a nice thing to do. After all, doesn't everybody want to be told something nice about them? However, modern feminism has done several things which now make this socially unacceptable. Up is now down, where a compliment is an insult because it is implied that she is only worthwhile as the sex object I am inferred to be viewing her as, and all her other attributes are implied either insignificant or subpar. Iow, there actually is no such thing as a genuine compliment from a man to a woman unless the woman has predetermined the man is safe to give compliments. This is based on the modern feminist theory that all men are oppressors and/or abusers. Thus, no compliment from outside of your inner safe circle is acceptable. As has been said on this thread at least twice directed at me, _men now have no right to compliment a woman they are not in a close relationship with already_. 

In the feminist world, a woman's sexuality is unquestionable when she is making the choice, and to be celebrated and explored freely as she desires. Simultaneously, any notice or mention of her sexuality by men is an insult to her humanity because of it demeans the entirety of her being. A woman can flaunt her sexuality and publicly celebrate it, but if a man notices something about her physical attributes he is a slimy creep. Feminists have won.


----------



## Thor

The documentary "Red Pill" on Netflix explores the OP's question in detail. It looks at some other aspects of how modern feminism has impacted men and society at large, too.


----------



## naiveonedave

my wife asked me why I thought there was such a draw to 50 shades. We talked about it for probably 20 minutes. Our consensus is that many/most women crave dominant masculinity (subconscious level), but they almost never see it in Western men (other than the bad boys), because men have been taught since childhood, that all things 'boy' are wrong and all things girl are right (I saw it in spades in my sons classrooms for the past 12 years). They learn to suppress masculinity in pretty much all things outside of sports.

this dichotomy, imo, is very dangerous.


----------



## Yag-Kosha

Thor said:


> The documentary "Red Pill" on Netflix explores the OP's question in detail. It looks at some other aspects of how modern feminism has impacted men and society at large, too.


Netflix banned it along with many other places. Are you referring to a different streaming service? Unless Netflix recently overturned their ban on it but I can't find anything to suggest that. I know YouTube Movies is hosting it so I will probably just rent it at some point on that service. 

And Thor, you can tell me I am pretty any time. I even put on clean underwear today so maybe a compliment or two will come my way. 

*fingers crossed*


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

We haven't won anything. Women are still harassed, workplaces are still unable to do anything without proof, women are still avoiding speaking up out of fear for their jobs. It's an ongoing problem so while you worry about not eating lunch with a pretty girl, she is worried about being able to even do her job in a safe environment and not being bullied and harassed due to her looks or gender. About people looking past what she looks like and seeing her work. 

The reason the 0 tolerance policy was put in place was due to the harassment that was and still is going on, not feminists. Again, blame the men for needing a rule to not harass women instead of just ... not harassing them. 

and maybe spend less time at work complaining with your coworkers about not being able to pick up chicks or tell them that they smell nice and just do your job. She's not there to smell nice for you or eat lunch with you or look pretty for you. She's working. 

You can always compliment her work skills if you want but her looks and smell have nothing to do with her job. 

Would you like a homosexual, big, muscly guy telling you that you smell nice when you are trying to work? Next day he likes your shirt, it really brings out your eyes? He flirts with you a bit, looks at your butt when you bend over. You tried being nice but clearly unavailable cause you're at work and want to be professional but the guy doesn't get it. He keeps doing it. 

I bet you'd feel he should do his job and leave you alone and feel uncomfortable with that unwanted attention in your workplace. 

You act like it's some huge inconvenience, it's not.


----------



## Yag-Kosha

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> We haven't won anything.


Feminism hasn't won anything since its inception? I find that to be a little fishy. I think at the very least some cookies would've been procured. Are you hiding them?


----------



## wild jade

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The men I work with are mostly 65+ and from a time where harassment was just accepted. I get a lot of sweet cheeks, honey, baby. Guys complimenting my cleavage, butt, asking me if I'm on birth control (weird but it's happened more than once), if my husband sleeps with me, stuff like "if I was your husband I'd never let you out of my sight"or how could my man let me out of the house.
> Some trying to touch, some obviously ogling me to the point of discomfort.
> When I was pregnant I got "you should have told him to pull it out sooner" or "Score, can't get you pregnant when you already are!"
> 
> I don't think guys understand what it is like to be treated this way. There are very real reasons for 0 tolerance for harassment policies that trump your need to compliment women.
> 
> Also, I've never considered a "you look nice today" as harassment and I really think that is a straw man argument. Men aren't getting fired and complained about and reported to HR for saying something like that. They just aren't.


I've received many compliments from men at my work, as have other female colleagues of mine. And women have also complimented men. None of them have that creepy tone that you describe here, they are authentic comments. I like the color of your shirt, that new hair style suits you, that report was brilliant, whatever.

No one makes a big deal of it, no one has ever been called out for harassment, and men and women still eat lunch together. 

The difference, IMHO, is that there aren't sexual undertones, and it really isn't about flirting or making advances. It's just genuine compliments between people who respect each other.


----------



## Thor

Yag-Kosha said:


> Netflix banned it along with many other places. Are you referring to a different streaming service?


Either Netflix or Amazon. I watched it just last week, and thought I saw it on Netflix but if not it was on Amazon.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You act like it's some huge inconvenience, it's not.


I've not said it is an inconvenience. It is a change in normal male/female interactions due to feminism, which was the original topic. And, due to the zero tolerance world we are in, a perceived or imagined transgression is a career ending threat. Inconvenience? No. Unpleasantness and concern, yes.

Again you have conflated normal genuine polite interaction with harassment. 1=infinity. Because there is still harassment in some workplaces, all compliments are bad. You obviously don't want any non-work related interactions with coworkers, so you believe no women want such interactions and you want all such interactions banned. You won. It has been banned. Men are guilty upon accusation.

I agree with you. I do not compliment coworkers. I avoid 1 on 1 interactions except in public spaces. I do not socialize outside of work duty hours with female coworkers.

To you, receiving a compliment is a stress inducing event. To me, giving a compliment or even thinking about giving a compliment is a stress inducing event. *If we are coworkers I will not be complimenting you or socializing on or off the job*. You are getting what you want. Why am I still your enemy if I am doing what you want?


----------



## CharlieParker

Thor said:


> I agree with you. I do not compliment coworkers. I avoid 1 on 1 interactions except in public spaces. I do not socialize outside of work duty hours with female coworkers.


Not you, but in general, is fraternization in your industry still as common as the stereo types?


----------



## wild jade

Thor said:


> To you, receiving a compliment is a stress inducing event. To me, giving a compliment or even thinking about giving a compliment is a stress inducing event. *If we are coworkers I will not be complimenting you or socializing on or off the job*. You are getting what you want. Why am I still your enemy if I am doing what you want?


You come across as being quite upset by this state of affairs, and basically saying that men can no longer give compliments, that you have to censure yourself, and that this is damaging to male female relations.

I have to say, I don't see this at all. I see people giving each other compliments all the time, I don't see anyone stressing out about harassment complaints, and I really don't see any damage to male-female relations -- unless you call not being able to sexually harass women at work as "damage".

I'm guessing we work at very different places with very different work cultures? 

Even so, I'm inclined to agree with @SlowlyGoingCrazy that you seem to be placing the blame in the wrong places.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Actually I've said a few times that a genuine compliment is not harassment. I still get them often, mostly still unwanted cause the guys who do it are creepy, but not harassment. I have never had males feel the need to avoid conversation with me or be alone with me. That seems to be an issue with you and your work mates but certainly not universal. 
Do men need to be more careful now about telling me I have a nice set of t*ts or tell me to shake it when I walk down the hall? Yes, and it is for the good of us all. No one that I know has let "don't sexually harass women" affect them in any negative way. No male/female interactions have been changed in anyway. 

No one is getting fired or in trouble for telling Jane her haircut looks nice. That isn't what this conversation is about because it just doesn't happen. It's the extreme that people like to throw out to try to counter basic principles. 

If we let gay people marry then people will want to marry their cat!

If we crack down on sexual harassment at work, Jane can get a guy fired for giving her a nice compliment! 

It doesn't happen, it won't happen. You don't have the whole story if you think this is what happens. It is still hard for women to prove harassment in a 0 tolerance policy workplace. You just do not have all the facts.

The guys getting in trouble for compliments are the ones being all trump creepy about it and/or not stopping when asked.


----------



## Mr. Nail

The guys not getting in trouble for complements are the ones smart enough to STFU. no touching, no chattering, only work related communication done in the presence of witnesses. Living in a police state.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

"The issue is a global one. For example, according to the United Nations, “between 40 and 50% of women in European Union countries experience unwanted sexual advancements, physical contact or other forms of sexual harassment at their workplace”.

"More than half of the allegations of sexual harassment made to the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) in 2015 have resulted in no charge. The statistics, which span the past six years, show a consistent pattern in which claimants are unsuccessful."

" Three quarters of individuals who had experienced sexual harassment at work did not report the incident according to a 2013 YouGov/Huffington Post poll"

"92% of all claims were filed by women in 1990 v 83% in 2015." - (yay anti harassment laws are beginning to help more men speak up now too. Damn feminists )

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/jul/22/sexual-harassment-at-work-roger-ailes-fox-news


These are the actual facts, feel free to check other numbers all the ones I have seen are similar. Women are still being harassed, not being believed, not reporting. Men are not being fired for a simple compliment. It's hard enough for us to get serious complaints recognized.


----------



## Mr. Nail

you are celebrating 17%?


----------



## Thor

wild jade said:


> You come across as being quite upset by this state of affairs, and basically saying that men can no longer give compliments, that you have to censure yourself, and that this is damaging to male female relations.
> 
> I have to say, I don't see this at all. I see people giving each other compliments all the time, I don't see anyone stressing out about harassment complaints, and I really don't see any damage to male-female relations -- unless you call not being able to sexually harass women at work as "damage".
> 
> I'm guessing we work at very different places with very different work cultures?
> 
> Even so, I'm inclined to agree with @SlowlyGoingCrazy that you seem to be placing the blame in the wrong places.


I am not "quite upset" about not being able to compliment women at work. It bothers me to have to self censor because what would be intended as a positive could easily (and has) become a ration of **** from a feminist activist. The stupidity of Zero Tolerance in almost all arenas bothers me. But I deal with it by keeping my head down so as not to be seen as trump creepy, which some women by default see any compliment as.

Certainly there are people who will give compliments at work. I expect these are people who already have a working friendship and are thus in the approved inner circle to do so. I expect it is quite rare for a man to give a compliment to a total stranger at work. I certainly haven't seen it in my 35 years of professional life.

There is definitely a chilling effect on men approaching women, whether it be in the workplace or out in the general public. Some chilling may be a good thing if there are creeps out there, but I suspect those guys are not deterred by social rules. I presume a woman in a bar is fair game to approach, but I do not assume a woman on the bus is fair game to compliment _because the situational contexts are different_. According to current social rules it is creepy to compliment a woman out of the blue unless she has placed herself in a context which specifically implies consent to be approached. Bar = ok, bus=/= ok.

What does annoy me is the implication, led by the modern feminists, that it is somehow bad that men are attracted to women. It is creepy, slimy. When a man notices something attractive about a woman it is taken as impugning the rest of her attributes. A woman's attractiveness should not be noticed or else the man is a low life who only sees her as a sex object. That is, in the feminist belief system a man cannot both appreciate a woman's attractiveness and simultaneously respect her for other attributes such as intelligence etc. Thus women must carefully control who is allowed to notice their sexuality and under what circumstances.

Perhaps this mentality only exists in a tiny portion of American adult women. Idk. It seems to be more and more pervasive, and I'd guess it exists in most women to some extent. Men have been burned when they've made a genuine attempt to do something nice for women by holding open doors, giving a simple compliment, etc. So men have become more guarded about doing such things. I think it is a shame.


----------



## Thor

Mr. Nail said:


> The guys not getting in trouble for complements are the ones smart enough to STFU. no touching, no chattering, only work related communication done in the presence of witnesses. Living in a police state.


I'm known as "Slam Click", just like most of my male coworkers. We get to the hotel, slam the door shut, click the security latch. It would be nice to eat a meal with coworkers just to have some social interaction. It would be nice to get to know some of them better. But the basic rule is no 1 on 1 with an opposite sex coworker during off duty hours. I've seen it go very bad. If the entire crew wants to meet in the restaurant, sure. But only if there are more than 2 of us total.

Many times I've had flight attendants ask if I want to meet for dinner, or go to happy hour, or even go to a nearby attraction. Nope, sorry. If the other pilot is female, same answer.


----------



## Thor

CharlieParker said:


> Not you, but in general, is fraternization in your industry still as common as the stereo types?


No. There is a young single crowd who do tend to see the trips as their social life. Primarily these are the flight attendants. Male, female, straight, gay. Amongst the pilots there is little fraternization with flight attendants, and essentially none between pilots who were not already a couple before coming to a particular airline together. 

In the old days, pre feminism btw, flight attendants typically were required to be under age 30 and single. All the anti-discrimination laws after about 1970 meant these rules could no longer apply. Prior to that, young single attractive women were flight attendants, many of whom were looking for a well paid husband. Thus the pilot/flight attendant fraternization was common. Today, many flight attendants are middle aged or older, and married. There are many married retired teachers who become flight attendants for the travel benefits. The demographic of the pilot group has changed too, to be older. Back in the 60's and 70's there were a lot of military pilots going into the airlines as the airlines grew. So, a lot of young single ex-military pilots mixing with young single available women.

The nature of our schedules has changed completely, also. In the old days we had a "line", which was the same trip each week of the month with the same crew. e.g. we might go out on Monday morning and come home Thursday for each week of this month. We flew the same flights and had the same overnights on each of those trips for the month. Some airlines were on a 3 month sequence, most were month by month. So, for the entire month I would fly with the same group of people. You'd get to know them a bit more each trip of the month. Schedules were more regular and repeating, too, month to month. So I regularly flew the same trip for several months in a row. It was not unusual to overlap some of the same crew members for several months.

Now we work a different trip and different flights every day, week, and month. This week I work different days, flying different places, working with different people than I did last week or will work with next week. You just don't get to know people as well. I will see the same faces a few times over the span of a year or two. You just don't build friendships or get to know people the way it was in the past.

Young flight attendants can be partiers on the road, but they don't tend to stay in the job very long. The attrition rate is crazy high amongst young F/As. They tend to party amongst themselves, not with pilots.


----------



## Thor

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No one is getting fired or in trouble for telling Jane her haircut looks nice. That isn't what this conversation is about because it just doesn't happen. It's the extreme that people like to throw out to try to counter basic principles.


No, you're right probably it is rare for a one-off compliment to cause someone trouble. But this is how it does work:

I compliment Jane on a very nice haircut since the last time we worked together. I have no idea it makes her uncomfortable. A few months later I see she has a new haircut and compliment her that I like it even more than her last one. The next morning at the hotel shuttle she is wearing a nice perfume. Now it takes a lot for me to even notice a fragrance, but this one is just so nice. So I say in passing she has a nice purfume.

On our next trip, 4 months later, I go down to the hotel lobby at 6 pm and see Jane and another crewmember having a glass of wine or beer at the manager's reception. Free food is like a magnet to flight crew. So I sit down with some munchies and a glass of wine. As per usual the small talk covers where people grew up, if they like living in this part of the country, do they have kids or grand kids, yadda yadda. Unbeknown to me, Jane finds personal discussions offensive even when off duty and with multiple others there.

So now Jane goes and files a complaint that I have been repeatedly making unwanted advances to her and, while drinking on an overnight, pressed her for details about her personal life. There is clearly a pattern of harassment here, right? Even if the man had no idea she was feeling uncomfortable, it is harassment because the victim defines it.

This is why I am Captain Slam Click. This is why some of my male coworkers won't associate with females at all on or off duty even in a group. This is why I don't give compliments to coworkers. This is one reason I never drink on a trip. This is why I don't have 1 on 1 associations with female coworkers on or off duty.


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Wow, did you misinterpret what she said.
> 
> She did not say that the men who make comments to women are *real* men. What she said is that some small number of men won't make comments to women. But there will always be men who do.
> 
> I'm not sure that I agree with her that most men will make passing comments (cat calls, etc) to good looking women. But clearly some men do make passing comments (cat calls, etc) to good looking women.. Maybe someone could do a social study on what percentage of men do this.


Re-reading it, it occurred to me that I might have over-reacted to her response.

Her dismissive comment:

"But *your small withdrawal *from the pool of men who will always make comments to women will not be noticed."

just triggered me and, while I suspect that might well have been her meaning, there's no way to know so I'll withdraw it.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> I don't understand your or the other women's vitriol against me on this thread. *Your side has already won this battle in the workplace*. _I do not compliment women at work._ All the men I've talked to over the last 35 years of my adult working life have stated the same things I have said on this thread. It is not worth the unpleasant responses we get if we give a genuine compliment. It is not worth risking our jobs and careers over saying something nice to somebody. We do not approach coworkers for dates or socialize with them outside of work hours. I have male coworkers who on a trip will not eat alone with a female coworker in a restaurant. You have won. Men are staying away from women socially when there is a connection to work.


I have always worked on predominately male environments. In more recent years, things have been so much better because men and women have figured out much better how to work together. 

While you might know a lot of men who are apparently too scared to have normal work relationships with women, I’ve not experienced that.

When I traveled for work, I often traveled with one or two men. It was very normal to eat meals on the trip with just one guy. Or for me and guy (or guys) I traveled with to have drinks at the hotel evening social. 

In the last few days I asked several men I know about your comments. They thought the comments were odd. For example, I asked if they had ever told a woman who sat near them on a bus that she smelled good. Their response was that they would never say something like that to a woman that was not their wife/date/etc. They felt that using the work ‘smell’ implied something sexual. Instead they might tell a woman that they liked her perfume. There is a vast difference between saying a woman smells good and that her perfume smells good.


Thor said:


> 1=infinity. A compliment may be taken as harassment, as you and several other women on this thread have stated is the case for you. We get it. We are the enemy, and we have been warned, yes in writing in the corporate policy manual and in our annual company training.


Oh, good grief…. “we are the enemy”. You are not a victim. Why do you think you are victimized if women want to concentrate on work and don’t want attention for their looks, their smell, etc.?


Thor said:


> I was brought up that giving a genuine compliment is a nice thing to do. After all, doesn't everybody want to be told something nice about them? However, modern feminism has done several things which now make this socially unacceptable. Up is now down, where a compliment is an insult because it is implied that she is only worthwhile as the sex object I am inferred to be viewing her as, and all her other attributes are implied either insignificant or subpar. Iow, there actually is no such thing as a genuine compliment from a man to a woman unless the woman has predetermined the man is safe to give compliments. This is based on the modern feminist theory that all men are oppressors and/or abusers. Thus, no compliment from outside of your inner safe circle is acceptable. As has been said on this thread at least twice directed at me, _men now have no right to compliment a woman they are not in a close relationship with already_.
> 
> In the feminist world, a woman's sexuality is unquestionable when she is making the choice, and to be celebrated and explored freely as she desires. Simultaneously, any notice or mention of her sexuality by men is an insult to her humanity because of it demeans the entirety of her being. A woman can flaunt her sexuality and publicly celebrate it, but if a man notices something about her physical attributes he is a slimy creep. Feminists have won.


I’m sorry that you feel so traumatized because women at work, women walking down the street, women sitting on a bus near you generally do not want random men to make comments about their bodies, their looks, their smell, their clothing, etc.


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> Re-reading it, it occurred to me that I might have over-reacted to her response.
> 
> Her dismissive comment:
> 
> "But *your small withdrawal *from the pool of men who will always make comments to women will not be noticed."
> 
> just triggered me and, while I suspect that might well have been her meaning, there's no way to know so I'll withdraw it.


I took the word 'small' there to refer to the small number of men who withdraw from the pool of men who do things like cat call women as they walk down the street, or comment at a woman's physical appearance at work, etc.

with your explanation, I understand how you misinterpreted her post.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> I’m sorry that you feel so traumatized because women at work, women walking down the street, women sitting on a bus near you generally do not want random men to make comments about their bodies, their looks, their smell, their clothing, etc.


Thor,

Maybe you need professional help. No one, not even a man, should require that much validation.

Moreover, a compliment is about giving something to someone with no strings attached. You seem to want a certain outcome from this act.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> No, you're right probably it is rare for a one-off compliment to cause someone trouble. But this is how it does work:
> 
> I compliment Jane on a very nice haircut since the last time we worked together. I have no idea it makes her uncomfortable. A few months later I see she has a new haircut and compliment her that I like it even more than her last one. The next morning at the hotel shuttle she is wearing a nice perfume. Now it takes a lot for me to even notice a fragrance, but this one is just so nice. So I say in passing she has a nice purfume.
> 
> On our next trip, 4 months later, I go down to the hotel lobby at 6 pm and see Jane and another crewmember having a glass of wine or beer at the manager's reception. Free food is like a magnet to flight crew. So I sit down with some munchies and a glass of wine. As per usual the small talk covers where people grew up, if they like living in this part of the country, do they have kids or grand kids, yadda yadda. Unbeknown to me, Jane finds personal discussions offensive even when off duty and with multiple others there.
> 
> So now Jane goes and files a complaint that I have been repeatedly making unwanted advances to her and, while drinking on an overnight, pressed her for details about her personal life. There is clearly a pattern of harassment here, right? Even if the man had no idea she was feeling uncomfortable, it is harassment because the victim defines it.
> 
> This is why I am Captain Slam Click. This is why some of my male coworkers won't associate with females at all on or off duty even in a group. This is why I don't give compliments to coworkers. This is one reason I never drink on a trip. This is why I don't have 1 on 1 associations with female coworkers on or off duty.


Some of the questions that Jane will be asked is if she ever told you loud and clear to stop what she considers unwanted advances. Did she engage in the conversation? ask personal questions about others in the group, etc.?


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> There is a vast difference between saying a woman smells good and that her perfume smells good.


It would be nice if there was a manual that to spelled out the differences between "compliment" and "harassment" like this.

People think this stuff is obvious and that any guy would know the difference between the two.

Most guys don't know this stuff, especially the socially awkward guys who need it the most.


----------



## Buddy400

Thor said:


> What does annoy me is the implication, led by the modern feminists, that it is somehow bad that men are attracted to women. It is creepy, slimy. When a man notices something attractive about a woman it is taken as impugning the rest of her attributes. A woman's attractiveness should not be noticed or else the man is a low life who only sees her as a sex object. That is, in the feminist belief system a man cannot both appreciate a woman's attractiveness and simultaneously respect her for other attributes such as intelligence etc. Thus women must carefully control who is allowed to notice their sexuality and under what circumstances.


Agreed. 

The problem seems to be that men aren't women.

If men are more like women, some women complain and wonder why we aren't behaving like men.

I'm only annoyed on principle.

None of this has any effect of my personal life.


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> It would be nice if there was a manual that to spelled out the differences between "compliment" and "harassment" like this.
> 
> People think this stuff is obvious and that any guy would know the difference between the two.
> 
> Most guys don't know this stuff, especially the socially awkward guys who need it the most.


Yet everyone I spoke to and me knew that there was a difference between the two. And no one told us that there was.

Maybe someone could make a lot of money by publishing that manual. :wink2:

One thing that men (some men) could stop that would really help are all the cat calls and comments to women when they walk down the street. But, I don't think that they will because those are usually really done in a group as male-bonding.


----------



## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> One of the questions that Jane will be asked is if she ever told you loud and clear to stop what she considers unwanted advances. Did she engage in the conversation? ask personal questions about others in the group, etc.?


Not so sure about this.

She doesn't have to say "No", he should have determined ahead of time that the advance (or what was perceived as an advance) was unwelcome.

To ask these questions in a sexual harassment case might be seen as blaming the victim.


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> Not so sure about this.
> 
> She doesn't have to say "No", he should have determined ahead of time that the advance (or what was perceived as an advance) was unwelcome.
> 
> To ask these questions in a sexual harassment case might be seen as blaming the victim.


In the cases I know of, those kind of questions were asked and since the woman never told the guy that she was uncomfortable with his actions, it was dropped.

Keep in mind, these are not cases that are more clearly harassment like a guy making comments about a woman's cleavage, or that he likes her ass, or he's touching her, telling her that he wants a bj, etc. Or like my experience where the boss is telling me of wet dreams about me.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

But again, most cases are not taken seriously. A woman with no proof, no witnesses and no past history of him harassing other women is just not going to get anywhere with her complaint. 
Plus most women don't report so for her to do so knowing it will likely result in nothing and she doesn't gain anything by it and often risks herself by complaining, unless he was really making her uncomfortable and not picking up on the signs and she felt she had no other choice, she's not just going to go file a harassment claim. It's not like it's a fun thing to do for no good reason. What benefit does she get? If she truly feels harassed then he missed clear signs, maybe a refresher course on how to talk to women in the workplace is needed if someone is that off base. 

I'll give you that there are some hysterics, a small portion of women who play a victim, but they have always been there even before the 0 tolerance policy. There's really not a lot that it has changed with 0 tolerance other than making a business look like they are super serious about it. 

This isn't a "but feminism took away my right to compliment a woman at work on her looks therefore male and female relations have been changed for the worse!!" problem. It's a 'too many women (and men) were being harassed and they had to make a rule to crack down on it' 

But yes, avoid women if that's what you feel you must do but most men have figured out how to be pleasant with women without being harassing or being in fear.


*** arrg this was supposed to be a quote and now I've lost my page lol**


----------



## NextTimeAround

This is why I believe that compliments cn be a tool for grooming:

This from the Guardian that @SlowlyGoingCrazy linked:



> There’s a clear link between sexual harassment and sexual assault
> Most importantly though, the Rand study found a clear link between sexual harassment and sexual assault. US military women who had been sexually harassed in the past year were 14 times more likely to have also been sexually assaulted in the same period (compared to women who had not been sexually harassed). That probability was 49 times higher for men.


----------



## Idyit

The fact that sexual harassment/assault are being directly linked on this thread may give some credence to the OP.


----------



## EleGirl

Idyit said:


> The fact that sexual harassment/assault are being directly linked on this thread may give some credence to the OP.


The reason they are being linked is that it happens. Some of the women on this thread have given examples of it happening to them.


----------



## NextTimeAround

EleGirl said:


> The reason they are being linked is that it happens. Some of the women on this thread have given examples of it happening to them.


This comes back to what can women use to protect themselves. Either spidy senses and workable boundaries when dealing others or veils, floor length dresses and sequestration.

I know what I've chosen.

Since some of you men here crave the right to compliment women, would prefer a society that resorts to the second solution


----------



## Idyit

EleGirl said:


> The reason they are being linked is that it happens. Some of the women on this thread have given examples of it happening to them.


Of course it happens and I have no doubt that the situations described here happened too. 

But directly linking a compliment with sexual assault is a bit of a reach in my opinion. These two things are very different.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Idyit said:


> Of course it happens and I have no doubt that the situations described here happened too.
> 
> But directly linking a compliment with sexual assault is a bit of a reach in my opinion. These two things are very different.


It's not a reach at all.

Pedophiles clearly use compliments to groom underage victims.

But compliments can work on adults who have needs for validation. Lots of adults can be made to feel as if they someone something --more than just the standard thank you --. 

It's no secret that foreign dignitaries are using compliments to manipulate Trump.

Given Thor's behavior on this thread, I can certainly imagine some expectation of compliment recipient.


----------



## Idyit

NextTimeAround said:


> It's not a reach at all.
> 
> Pedophiles clearly use compliments to groom underage victims.
> 
> But compliments can work on adults who have needs for validation. Lots of adults can be made to feel as if they someone something --more than just the standard thank you --.
> 
> It's no secret that foreign dignitaries are using compliments to manipulate Trump.
> 
> Given Thor's behavior on this thread, I can certainly imagine some expectation of compliment recipient.


So compliment - sexual harassment - sexual assault - pedophile are all equivalents in this conversation?


----------



## EleGirl

Idyit said:


> Of course it happens and I have no doubt that the situations described here happened too.
> 
> But directly linking a compliment with sexual assault is a bit of a reach in my opinion. These two things are very different.


This thread was started by a post about men yelling what amount to cat calls at a woman. Most women do not like cat calls and feel that they are a kind of harassment. This is because often, if the women ignores the guy making the cat call he will start harassing her. So most women would just prefer that the cat calls stop.

Then the thread moved to work place compliments. I think that most of the women here have said that they really don't want the compliments about their hair, their body, their clothing, their looks, how they smell, etc. in the work place. Perhaps they do not raise to the level of sexual harassment, but they are apparently unwanted attention by a lot of women.

They just want to do their job. If they are complimented, they want it to be about the work that they are doing.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Idyit said:


> So compliment - sexual harassment - sexual assault - pedophile are all equivalents in this conversation?



Where did you get that idea from?


----------



## musicftw07

Idyit said:


> NextTimeAround said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a reach at all.
> 
> Pedophiles clearly use compliments to groom underage victims.
> 
> But compliments can work on adults who have needs for validation. Lots of adults can be made to feel as if they someone something --more than just the standard thank you --.
> 
> It's no secret that foreign dignitaries are using compliments to manipulate Trump.
> 
> Given Thor's behavior on this thread, I can certainly imagine some expectation of compliment recipient.
> 
> 
> 
> So compliment - sexual harassment - sexual assault - pedophile are all equivalents in this conversation?
Click to expand...

And thus why many men will not associate with women beyond a 100% professional capacity.

I find it interesting how women will denigrate men for not talking to them out of fear of legal reprisal and then, in the same thread, equate giving a compliment to sexual harassment, assault, and pedophilia.

I take the hard stance and don't talk to women at work unless I have a legitimate business reason to do so. Three guesses as to why.


----------



## EleGirl

NextTimeAround said:


> It's not a reach at all.
> 
> Pedophiles clearly use compliments to groom underage victims.
> 
> But compliments can work on adults who have needs for validation. Lots of adults can be made to feel as if they someone something --more than just the standard thank you --.
> 
> It's no secret that foreign dignitaries are using compliments to manipulate Trump.
> 
> Given Thor's behavior on this thread, I can certainly imagine some expectation of compliment recipient.


The boss I talked about who would come into my office and in private tell me about his wet dreams started out by being very nice and complementary to me. I just took it as him being a nice older man. He did not cross the line until the day he started the talk about wet dreams... and when he talked to me about the wet dreams, he was usually massaging my shoulders. I did try to talk to some older coworkers about him but that never got very far because they had only seen him being nice and complimentary to me.... about my looks, but still nice. So I stopped telling anyone. And at that time there were no rules in business against a boss making clearly sexual advances towards a female subordinate.


----------



## NextTimeAround

musicftw07 said:


> And thus why many men will not associate with women beyond a 100% professional capacity.
> 
> I find it interesting how women will denigrate men for not talking to them out of fear of legal reprisal and then, in the same thread, equate giving a compliment to sexual harassment, assault, and pedophilia.
> 
> I take the hard stance and don't talk to women at work unless I have a legitimate business reason to do so. Three guesses as to why.


It is not a 100% given that when a man gives me a compliment that he wants to assault /harass me. I am just saying that this trajectory is necessary to monitor when a man is moving too fast / too insistently. 

Sometimes, the compliments are not even authentic. If someone thinks that a few compliments might loosen the other person up, sure they are going to do it. 

I've been in situations where I've complimented a man and I did not find him too receptive of it. I think a lot of people understand that compliments can be distracting and they can be nefarious.

I'm afraid you men will have to find a new past time.


----------



## musicftw07

NextTimeAround said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And thus why many men will not associate with women beyond a 100% professional capacity.
> 
> I find it interesting how women will denigrate men for not talking to them out of fear of legal reprisal and then, in the same thread, equate giving a compliment to sexual harassment, assault, and pedophilia.
> 
> I take the hard stance and don't talk to women at work unless I have a legitimate business reason to do so. Three guesses as to why.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a 100% given that when a man gives me a compliment that he wants to assault /harass me. I am just saying that this trajectory is necessary to monitor when a man is moving too fast / too insistently.
> 
> Sometimes, the compliments are not even authentic. If someone thinks that a few compliments might loosen the other person up, sure they are going to do it.
> 
> I've been in situations where I've complimented a man and I did not find him too receptive of it. I think a lot of people understand that compliments can be distracting and they can be nefarious.
> 
> I'm afraid you men will have to find a new past time.
Click to expand...

That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.

You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

musicftw07 said:


> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.


Fine by me. I get enough validation about my looks from my husband. Sad that some people need to search for it elsewhere.

And another thing about compliments, I value them based on the compliment is delivered For example, in a social situation, if someone quietly tells me that they like my dress, I thank them for it. and assume they're just being nice and /or maybe they do like my dress. 

Someone who feels the need to say it very publicly and /or very often makes me wonder if they have an agenda. For example, like the wife of my exH's friend. It certainly worked with my ex "well, she must like you, she compliments you all the time."


----------



## Idyit

EleGirl said:


> This thread was started by a post about men yelling what amount to cat calls at a woman. Most women do not like cat calls and feel that they are a kind of harassment. This is because often, if the women ignores the guy making the cat call he will start harassing her. So most women would just prefer that the cat calls stop.
> 
> No problem with this response. I don't do this myself and it has been made clear to my boys that this is well beneath them.
> 
> Then the thread moved to work place compliments. I think that most of the women here have said that they really don't want the compliments about their hair, their body, their clothing, their looks, how they smell, etc. in the work place. Perhaps they do not raise to the level of sexual harassment, but they are apparently unwanted attention by a lot of women.
> 
> Agreed again. Personally, my compliments would be reserved for performance or how personality has an effect on their job. Any physical stuff is a mine field that I would rather not go through.
> 
> They just want to do their job. If they are complimented, they want it to be about the work that they are doing.
> 
> Get it and agree.


Now that I have said that I agree with what you are saying here and carry myself accordingly.... I still do not believe there is equivalency between the things mentioned. One could lead to another in some small percentage of circumstances but there are not the same.


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.


There will always be some people who are dissatisfied no matter what is going on. You can never please all the people all the time.

I don't think that men are avoiding women at all costs at all. 

In my work place the men and women talk all the time, and not always about work. We would talk about our lives outside of work, our children, spouses, our hobbies and interests all the time. 

And given that more than half the affairs these days start at work, clearly men and women are still talking at work.

Outside of the work force, most men and women are in relationships. And a lot of men and women are friends with each other. So clearly most men and women are talking and otherwise engaging with each other.

A thread like this gets off track very quickly as to many discussions on line. 70% of human communication is non-verbal. We only have the written word here. A lot of nuance, emotions, etc. are lost so the discussions do not go well. It ends up with people trying harder and harder to make their point and eventually people are in opposite corners.


----------



## musicftw07

NextTimeAround said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Fine by me. I get enough validation about my looks from my husband. Sad that some people need to search for it elsewhere.
> 
> And another thing about compliments, I value them based on the compliment is delivered For example, in a social situation, if someone quietly tells me that they like my dress, I thank them for it. and assume they're just being nice and /or maybe they do like my dress.
> 
> Someone who feels the need to say it very publicly and /or very often makes me wonder if they have an agenda. For example, like the wife of my exH's friend. It certainly worked with my ex "well, she must like you, she compliments you all the time."
Click to expand...

If it's fine by you, then you're not part of the demographic of women who are dissatisfied with the outcome.

In other words, we are in agreement that men should avoid women completely in the workplace.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> This thread was started by a post about men yelling what amount to cat calls at a woman. Most women do not like cat calls and feel that they are a kind of harassment. This is because often, if the women ignores the guy making the cat call he will start harassing her. So most women would just prefer that the cat calls stop.


The irony about this is that there was a time when if a woman got too much attention --particularly inappropriate attention like catcalls -- she was considered "fast" and "easy" and that it was her fault.

These pre feminist good old days did not really exist for us.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

musicftw07 said:


> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.


Most women here have not noticed any avoiding and business and professional relationships have gone on as usual. Some women may be dissatisfied that they aren't getting cat called and flirted with at work anymore but for the most part, people are happy to just keep things professional and do their job. 

Since most men were not harassing, they have continued on as they always have and know how to talk to a woman about topics other than how she smells or looks. 

Some men went into extremist fear apparently avoiding women altogether, that's fine too. Do your job and I'll do mine. Don't care if you avoid me as long as you don't harass me. I haven't noticed any. I think it's a pretty small number of men who got so worried about 0 harassment policies that they had to stop talking to women at all. 

Some women have avoided talking to men for a long time to avoid making it seem like harassment was wanted. They refuse to chat with a guy because some will think that means it's ok to flirt and she's open for business. 

For some of these men, If I'm nice to a guy, I'm a tease and a sl*t, If I'm mean to a guy, I'm a b*tch and a c*nt. You can't win so you start avoiding. Start walking with your headphones in, start taking your breaks at a more isolated side of the building that has mostly females instead. 

Overall the goal is the lessen sexual harassment in the workplace so we can all do our job, not make it easier for you to pick up women or make new friends. 

Sexual harassment is a real problem. Not being able to tell Jane she smells good isn't a real problem. You're not the victims here.


----------



## GTdad

Threads like this seem to lend themselves to extremism. Maybe I work in an unusually respectful, collegial place, but I treat (and talk to) my female colleagues pretty much the same way I talk to my male colleagues. It's worked out okay for decades.


----------



## musicftw07

EleGirl said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.
> 
> 
> 
> There will always be some people who are dissatisfied no matter what is going on. You can never please all the people all the time.
> 
> I don't think that men are avoiding women at all costs at all.
> 
> In my work place the men and women talk all the time, and not always about work. We would talk about our lives outside of work, our children, spouses, our hobbies and interests all the time.
> 
> And given that more than half the affairs these days start at work, clearly men and women are still talking at work.
> 
> Outside of the work force, most men and women are in relationships. And a lot of men and women are friends with each other. So clearly most men and women are talking and otherwise engaging with each other.
> 
> A thread like this gets off track very quickly as to many discussions on line. 70% of human communication is non-verbal. We only have the written word here. A lot of nuance, emotions, etc. are lost so the discussions do not go well. It ends up with people trying harder and harder to make their point and eventually people are in opposite corners.
Click to expand...

The only time I discuss anything non-work related with a woman at work is if she brings up the topic. Even then, I'll keep specifics to a bare minimum and end the conversation quickly.

Correlating what happens outside of work is a false comparison to what happens at work. Hypothetically, I could compliment a woman on the street with no fear of reprisal. However, at work I could be called into HR at her whim.

My girlfriend is a feminist, and yes we met at work. She sat behind me for six months and the only word I said to her during that entire time was "Howdy". I never initiated conversation and essentially pretended she didn't exist. All efforts at getting to know each other were initiated by her. And yes, I told her exactly why that was the case: I didn't want her to misconstrue my behavior. I have a house, and a daughter, and my career is very important to me. I wasn't going to risk all that because HR training is very specific: it's not the intent that matters, it's how the other person perceives it.

I wasn't going to take that risk.

And bless her heart, she understood my point of view.

A friendship that would have taken a few weeks under normal circumstances to develop literally took over two years under those conditions.

I didn't say all men are avoiding women. But I'm willing to bet that it's a much higher number than what you would otherwise believe. Most men aren't predators and have no desire to be labeled as such, so we go to great lengths to avoid any possibility of perceived impropriety.

In today's culture, it's really the only prudent thing to do.


----------



## musicftw07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Most women here have not noticed any avoiding and business and professional relationships have gone on as usual. Some women may be dissatisfied that they aren't getting cat called and flirted with at work anymore but for the most part, people are happy to just keep things professional and do their job.
> 
> Since most men were not harassing, they have continued on as they always have and know how to talk to a woman about topics other than how she smells or looks.
> 
> Some men went into extremist fear apparently avoiding women altogether, that's fine too. Do your job and I'll do mine. Don't care if you avoid me as long as you don't harass me. I haven't noticed any. I think it's a pretty small number of men who got so worried about 0 harassment policies that they had to stop talking to women at all.
> 
> Some women have avoided talking to men for a long time to avoid making it seem like harassment was wanted. They refuse to chat with a guy because some will think that means it's ok to flirt and she's open for business.
> 
> For some of these men, If I'm nice to a guy, I'm a tease and a sl*t, If I'm mean to a guy, I'm a b*tch and a c*nt. You can't win so you start avoiding. Start walking with your headphones in, start taking your breaks at a more isolated side of the building that has mostly females instead.
> 
> Overall the goal is the lessen sexual harassment in the workplace so we can all do our job, not make it easier for you to pick up women or make new friends.
> 
> Sexual harassment is a real problem. Not being able to tell Jane she smells good isn't a real problem. You're not the victims here.
Click to expand...

I never said men are victims. What I said was I find it funny that some women are in favor of the current work dynamic and yet are unhappy they don't get as much make attention as a result.

I don't see any victimization in that statement anywhere.


----------



## Thor

NextTimeAround said:


> Thor,
> 
> Maybe you need professional help. No one, not even a man, should require that much validation.
> 
> Moreover, a compliment is about giving something to someone with no strings attached. You seem to want a certain outcome from this act.


You all have read vastly more into my comments than are there. I responded to the original question and a hypothetical that someone posed about commenting on a haircut. I am not traumatized. I understand many women do not want compliments in the workplace or out in public from a stranger, though I also know many women do like compliments. I err on the side of peace by keeping my mouth shut. I find it sad that so many women are traumatized to the point of literally feeling unsafe if a man makes a simple compliment. I find it sad that we have gotten to a scorched earth zero tolerance legal situation.

Wherever did I say there have ever been any strings attached to any compliment I have given or wanted to give?

I have stated time and time and time and time and time again that I am complying with your wishes and those expressed by numerous other women on this thread. I stfu and keep my head down wrt comments about a female coworkers appearance (or fragrance). I do likewise with strangers in public like the one on the bus. *Why do you and the others have a beef with me? I am doing what you want and have done so the entirety of my 35 year adult working career.* Your beef is with the men who engage in _harassment_, which is not me because I stfu, I don't harass.

I wish we could be normal adults at work and not have the specter of disciplinary action for giving no strings attached simple compliments. But a few bsc activists and bunny boilers have poisoned the system. So I stfu and keep it business at work.

You all have gone off the deep end on this one, so I'm out.


----------



## naiveonedave

In my opinion, some women are ending up 'the losers', because of the extremist faction of feminism. They would like to have better relationships with their co-workers, but can't because the men are choosing to be unavailable.

Most men are likely 'pulling back' on anything that could even remotely get them into any kind of trouble. That has some severe negative implications on things like the 'glass ceiling'. You have to have relationships with your co-workers to form networks/mentors/etc., if you want to advance. 

Harassment has been and will always be an issue (and it can work both ways), but the unintended consequences of where we are now are significant.


----------



## musicftw07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Most women here have not noticed any avoiding and business and professional relationships have gone on as usual. Some women may be dissatisfied that they aren't getting cat called and flirted with at work anymore but for the most part, people are happy to just keep things professional and do their job.
> 
> Since most men were not harassing, they have continued on as they always have and know how to talk to a woman about topics other than how she smells or looks.
> 
> Some men went into extremist fear apparently avoiding women altogether, that's fine too. Do your job and I'll do mine. Don't care if you avoid me as long as you don't harass me. I haven't noticed any. I think it's a pretty small number of men who got so worried about 0 harassment policies that they had to stop talking to women at all.
> 
> Some women have avoided talking to men for a long time to avoid making it seem like harassment was wanted. They refuse to chat with a guy because some will think that means it's ok to flirt and she's open for business.
> 
> For some of these men, If I'm nice to a guy, I'm a tease and a sl*t, If I'm mean to a guy, I'm a b*tch and a c*nt. You can't win so you start avoiding. Start walking with your headphones in, start taking your breaks at a more isolated side of the building that has mostly females instead.
> 
> Overall the goal is the lessen sexual harassment in the workplace so we can all do our job, not make it easier for you to pick up women or make new friends.
> 
> Sexual harassment is a real problem. Not being able to tell Jane she smells good isn't a real problem. You're not the victims here.
Click to expand...

But to expand on this... There is a woman who sits across the aisle from me who on two occasions has directly told me publicly that I smell nice.

If telling someone they smell nice is harassment, then my next course of action should be to report her to HR.

Correct?

ETA: An upper manager who is female also told me, in a conference room in front of other upper managers (also all female) that I remind her of her daughter's boyfriend.

How would you feel if a male upper manager told you in front of other managers, also all male, that you remind him of his son's girlfriend?

Your narrative says that men aren't victims of harassment in the workplace. I heartily beg to differ. I have personally been harassed *by your very own definition of it* multiple times in the workplace.

I assume that you are in favor of equal corrective action for these female instigators?

ETA again: I always have my headphones in at work. Always. And I take all my breaks off-site by walking around downtown. I also eat lunch at my desk and only make small talk with other men.

So if you're a victim because you have to do those things in order to not be perceived as being open and available, and I have to do those things in order to avoid being perceived as a one who instigates harassment, then what does that make me?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

musicftw07 said:


> But to expand on this... There is a woman who sits across the aisle from me who on two occasions has directly told me publicly that I smell nice.
> 
> If telling someone they smell nice is harassment, then my next course of action should be to report her to HR.
> 
> Correct?


It is really not so easy, for either gender. First you are going to need proof or a witness, then you have to prove it's harassment and affecting your ability to work then it goes up a chain of command and out of the small % of people who report, less then half have any results. 

In the meantime you've made things worse for yourself and are talked about behind your back and sometimes bullied. 


...

As far as men pulling back, I just don't see it. I have gotten a few "man she had the nicest t*ts... oh wait sorry ma'am we're supposed to say breasts now, right?" Oh and one guy was just talking randomly to a co-worker about women and then took him down the hall and said "I didn't want to say this in front of the lady cause they get all sensitive and sh*t but all of 'em knowadays are gold diggers" PS- whispering with a hearing loss means I can hear you. 

So the only change I've noticed is men who know they shouldn't say those things but do anyway and kind of make fun of not being able to. 

Personally I haven't found less or more harassment, less or more talking to men. 


Some guys don't understand that a lack of a no does not = yes and they can't read body language or cues that they or their compliments are not wanted. This goes on long enough and it's harassing. These guys are probably better off just not talking to women outside of work matters but I don't think their intentions are bad.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

"Your narrative says that men aren't victims of harassment in the workplace. I heartily beg to differ. I have personally been harassed *by your very own definition of it* multiple times in the workplace.

I assume that you are in favor of equal corrective action for these female instigators?" 

I am sorry I gave off that impression, I can see how I did. Males can absolutely be victims of sexual harassment at work and when done by a woman should have just as much punishment as a man would. I believe that harassment policies at work are also beneficial for males who are being harassed. They also include harassment against LGBTQ members but that's a whole other topic.


----------



## musicftw07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to expand on this... There is a woman who sits across the aisle from me who on two occasions has directly told me publicly that I smell nice.
> 
> If telling someone they smell nice is harassment, then my next course of action should be to report her to HR.
> 
> Correct?
> 
> 
> 
> It is really not so easy, for either gender. First you are going to need proof or a witness, then you have to prove it's harassment and affecting your ability to work then it goes up a chain of command and out of the small % of people who report, less then half have any results.
> 
> In the meantime you've made things worse for yourself and are talked about behind your back and sometimes bullied.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> As far as men pulling back, I just don't see it. I have gotten a few "man she had the nicest t*ts... oh wait sorry ma'am we're supposed to say breasts now, right?" Oh and one guy was just talking randomly to a co-worker about women and then took him down the hall and said "I didn't want to say this in front of the lady cause they get all sensitive and sh*t but all of 'em knowadays are gold diggers" PS- whispering with a hearing loss means I can hear you.
> 
> So the only change I've noticed is men who know they shouldn't say those things but do anyway and kind of make fun of not being able to.
> 
> Personally I haven't found less or more harassment, less or more talking to men.
> 
> 
> Some guys don't understand that a lack of a no does not = yes and they can't read body language or cues that they or their compliments are not wanted. This goes on long enough and it's harassing. These guys are probably better off just not talking to women outside of work matters but I don't think their intentions are bad.
Click to expand...

You just moved the goalposts. When we were talking about women being on the receiving end of harassment, you made it plainly clear that a man telling a woman she smells nice is harassment.

But when a woman does it to man, you say "Oh, well, it is really not so easy for either gender."

Which is it? Easy or not? Because I don't take anyone seriously who moves the goalposts so readily to suit their own narrative.

If it's not easy to determine harassment if someone tells you that you smell nice (as you now claim), then your own criterion of what actually constitutes harassment is false and I cannot accept your argument as valid.


----------



## EleGirl

Thor said:


> You all have read vastly more into my comments than are there. I responded to the original question and a hypothetical that someone posed about commenting on a haircut. I am not traumatized. I understand many women do not want compliments in the workplace or out in public from a stranger, though I also know many women do like compliments. I err on the side of peace by keeping my mouth shut. I find it sad that so many women are traumatized to the point of literally feeling unsafe if a man makes a simple compliment. I find it sad that we have gotten to a scorched earth zero tolerance legal situation.
> 
> Wherever did I say there have ever been any strings attached to any compliment I have given or wanted to give?
> 
> I have stated time and time and time and time and time again that I am complying with your wishes and those expressed by numerous other women on this thread. I stfu and keep my head down wrt comments about a female coworkers appearance (or fragrance). I do likewise with strangers in public like the one on the bus. *Why do you and the others have a beef with me? I am doing what you want and have done so the entirety of my 35 year adult working career.* Your beef is with the men who engage in _harassment_, which is not me because I stfu, I don't harass.
> 
> I wish we could be normal adults at work and not have the specter of disciplinary action for giving no strings attached simple compliments. But a few bsc activists and bunny boilers have poisoned the system. So I stfu and keep it business at work.
> 
> You all have gone off the deep end on this one, so I'm out.


The issue is that your posts sound like you are feeling attacked, or somehow put upon because a lot of women do not want the compliments and comments on their appearance. In your posts, you are complaining that you feel that you feel you cannot make compliments/comments as though somehow it's harming you.


----------



## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> "Your narrative says that men aren't victims of harassment in the workplace. I heartily beg to differ. I have personally been harassed *by your very own definition of it* multiple times in the workplace.
> 
> I assume that you are in favor of equal corrective action for these female instigators?"
> 
> I am sorry I gave off that impression, I can see how I did. Males can absolutely be victims of sexual harassment at work and when done by a woman should have just as much punishment as a man would. I believe that harassment policies at work are also beneficial for males who are being harassed. They also include harassment against LGBTQ members but that's a whole other topic.


There have been a lot of law suits started by men who have been sexually harassed at work by either a female or male boss(es) or coworker(s). These laws do not apply only to women. No one should have to put up with sexual harassment at work.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

musicftw07 said:


> You just moved the goalposts. When we were talking about women being on the receiving end of harassment, you made it plainly clear that a man telling a woman she smells nice is harassment.
> 
> But when a woman does it to man, you say "Oh, well, it is really not so easy for either gender."
> 
> Which is it? Easy or not? Because I don't take anyone seriously who moves the goalposts so readily to suit their own narrative.
> 
> If it's not easy to determine harassment if someone tells you that you smell nice (as you now claim), then your own criterion of what actually constitutes harassment is false and I cannot accept your argument as valid.


I've said all along that it is hard to actually report someone for harassment therefore they are NOT reporting simple compliments and the vast majority of women including myself do not consider a simple compliment as harassment (though telling me I smell good is usually creepy anyway but not harassment)


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> The issue is that your posts sound like you are feeling attacked, or somehow put upon because a lot of women do not want the compliments and comments on their appearance. In your posts, you are complaining that you feel that you feel you cannot make compliments/comments as though somehow it's harming you.


Not to butt in, but I feel like many of the women on this thread are reading into this way too much. Men are being accused of or at severe risk of being accused of harassment by trying to be 'nice people' (not in the sense of covert contracts, just trying to be friendly, with no ulterior motive.) It is kind of painful to have to hide your real self when at work, for this non-sensical reason. It also really doesn't make things better, it makes them worse. Having to think about this garbage 8+ hours a day to stay out of corp jail is dumb. Just plain dumb. If it is harassment, great, toss the book at them. If I say 'I like your hair cut' or 'your coat is a cool color', IT ISN'T HARRASSMENT. Not being able to say those things makes us robots, not humans. It is not human to not have random conversations with people you spend that much time with. It hurts men and it hurts women. Everyone is losing.


----------



## naiveonedave

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I've said all along that it is hard to actually report someone for harassment therefore they are NOT reporting simple compliments and the vast majority of women including myself do not consider a simple compliment as harassment (though telling me I smell good is usually creepy anyway but not harassment)


However, you see it all the time. Something innocuous becomes a lose the job situation. Happens enough people are changing behavior and it isn't for the better.


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> SlowlyGoingCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to expand on this... There is a woman who sits across the aisle from me who on two occasions has directly told me publicly that I smell nice.
> 
> If telling someone they smell nice is harassment, then my next course of action should be to report her to HR.
> 
> Correct?
> 
> 
> 
> It is really not so easy, for either gender. First you are going to need proof or a witness, then you have to prove it's harassment and affecting your ability to work then it goes up a chain of command and out of the small % of people who report, less then half have any results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You just moved the goalposts. When we were talking about women being on the receiving end of harassment, you made it plainly clear that a man telling a woman she smells nice is harassment.
> 
> But when a woman does it to man, you say "Oh, well, it is really not so easy for either gender."
> 
> Which is it? Easy or not? Because I don't take anyone seriously who moves the goalposts so readily to suit their own narrative.
> 
> If it's not easy to determine harassment if someone tells you that you smell nice (as you now claim), then your own criterion of what actually constitutes harassment is false and I cannot accept your argument as valid.
Click to expand...

No, she did not move the goal post. It’s a fact that it’s not easy to prove sexual harassment whether you are male or a female.

While a person, male or female, might feel harassed it is still very hard to prove it to the point that action can be taken on the claim that you are being harassed.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

naiveonedave said:


> If I say 'I like your hair cut' or 'your coat is a cool color', IT ISN'T HARRASSMENT. Not being able to say those things makes us robots, not humans. It is not human to not have random conversations with people you spend that much time with. It hurts men and it hurts women. Everyone is losing.


The men who say these things are *not *getting in trouble for harassment. 

It's hard to actually have a successful harassment claim, these men are not the ones getting them. 

It's a straw man. It doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. The slim chance anyone was reported for this had nothing happen to them because it's baseless and women will actual, ongoing harassment can barely get justice. 

But the vast majority of men do not harass and have not changed their behavior, and still talk to women and say their coat is nice and their project turned out great and they treat everyone with respect and we're all happy. It's just a non-issue for the most men.


----------



## knobcreek

People still compliment women? I don't say anything to women, I don't smile, compliment, joke around, go to lunch, everything is professional and by the book, EVERYTHING is sexist now, and blamed on men. It's not worth the risk to talk to women at work anymore.

I think in general male/female relationships have become increasingly adversarial. My son has no female friends, he has girlfriends for a few weeks then they're gone, but no group of girls him and his friends hang out with. I asked him why and he just said "they're mean, aggressive, insulting, and overall unpleasant to be around". Whether it's feminism or just society in general becoming more confrontational I don't know. I always had a large group of friends, girls included, it's a shame boys tend to not have this anymore because it made me more well rounded and comfortable in general. I loved chasing girls, getting their numbers, calling them. Now if you chase a girl they take pleasure in humiliating you if they don't reciprocate feelings. It used to just be subtle signals to let you down easy, now they go nuclear on boys and all of Facebook about the pathetic little loser who dared talk to her, leaving boys no longer engaging girls.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

naiveonedave said:


> However, you see it all the time. Something innocuous becomes a lose the job situation. Happens enough people are changing behavior and it isn't for the better.


I really, really don't see it all the time. I've never seen it, never seen an actual factual example of it. I've heard one sided stories of it happening on this thread from men who didn't know the other side and a lot of "it happens all the time!!" with no proof

I do still see harassment. It's really gotten better in many industries but the labour field is still bad and needs more focus.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> Not to butt in, but I feel like many of the women on this thread are reading into this way too much. Men are being accused of or at severe risk of being accused of harassment by trying to be 'nice people' (not in the sense of covert contracts, just trying to be friendly, with no ulterior motive.) It is kind of painful to have to hide your real self when at work, for this non-sensical reason. It also really doesn't make things better, it makes them worse. Having to think about this garbage 8+ hours a day to stay out of corp jail is dumb. Just plain dumb. If it is harassment, great, toss the book at them. If I say 'I like your hair cut' or 'your coat is a cool color', IT ISN'T HARRASSMENT. Not being able to say those things makes us robots, not humans. It is not human to not have random conversations with people you spend that much time with. It hurts men and it hurts women. Everyone is losing.


Really, you have to spend 8 hours a day thinking about not commenting on the appearance and smell of the women you work with?

I've never had to spend one moment at work thinking about a desire to comment on the appearance and smell of the men I work with.

Saying once that you like someone's hair cut it not harassment. Saying that you like the color of their coat is not harassment. Commenting on perfume is not harassment.

However if the comments are constant or accompanied with other unwanted behaviors, then there can be a pattern of harassment.

If he comments on her boobs, cleavage, her ass, and other parts of her anatomy it can be harassment. Smell is another thing that can be harassment as there is a sexual undertone to that. 

If the comments are about sexual acts the guy wants, that's clearly sexual harassment.

A man commenting on the appearance of a woman day after day, can be considered harassment if she asks him to stop and he does not. 

And we can switch the genders on that since we know that women and sexually harass men and that homosexual men can sexually harass other men.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

knobcreek said:


> People still compliment women? I don't say anything to women, I don't smile, compliment, joke around, go to lunch, everything is professional and by the book, EVERYTHING is sexist now, and blamed on men. It's not worth the risk to talk to women at work anymore.
> 
> I think in general male/female relationships have become increasingly adversarial. My son has no female friends, he has girlfriends for a few weeks then they're gone, but no group of girls him and his friends hang out with. I asked him why and he just said "they're mean, aggressive, insulting, and overall unpleasant to be around". Whether it's feminism or just society in general becoming more confrontational I don't know. I always had a large group of friends, girls included, it's a shame boys tend to not have this anymore because it made me more well rounded and comfortable in general. I loved chasing girls, getting their numbers, calling them. Now if you chase a girl they take pleasure in humiliating you if they don't reciprocate feelings. It used to just be subtle signals to let you down easy, now they go nuclear on boys and all of Facebook about the pathetic little loser who dared talk to her, leaving boys no longer engaging girls.


My teen son has mostly female friends. Lovely girls. I'd say it's 70% girls, 30% boys in their group. And we always went nuclear on boys lol. Not me personally, I actually liked the attention back then then but my friend was mean. Now they are mean on social media but they were always mean. Boys too. I had a few humiliations if I asked the wrong boy out. It's high school, we all got crap. If my son said any one gender was mean and unpleasant I would be concerned why he thought that and try to correct it. That kind of thinking more often comes from home IMO.

Oh and the boys and girls are still very much engaging each other.


----------



## naiveonedave

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> The men who say these things are *not *getting in trouble for harassment.
> 
> It's hard to actually have a successful harassment claim, these men are not the ones getting them.
> 
> It's a straw man. It doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. The slim chance anyone was reported for this had nothing happen to them because it's baseless and women will actual, ongoing harassment can barely get justice.
> 
> But the vast majority of men do not harass and have not changed their behavior, and still talk to women and say their coat is nice and their project turned out great and they treat everyone with respect and we're all happy. It's just a non-issue for the most men.


actually, it does. ALL THE TIME. Do the bogus cases stick, probably not very often. But you can be darn well sure that even unsubstantiated claims against you may harm you in the future. Just think about what happened to Duke Lacross players. Most/all had to transfer, even though they were innocent. Seen the same thing happen at work multiple times. Not fired, but leave because doors no longer opened for them.

Every male on this thread is telling you they are changing behavior due to this. It might be prudent to listen, they aren't changing because it is fun or easy.


----------



## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> People still compliment women? I don't say anything to women, I don't smile, compliment, joke around, go to lunch, everything is professional and by the book, EVERYTHING is sexist now, and blamed on men. It's not worth the risk to talk to women at work anymore.
> 
> I think in general male/female relationships have become increasingly adversarial. My son has no female friends, he has girlfriends for a few weeks then they're gone, but no group of girls him and his friends hang out with. I asked him why and he just said "they're mean, aggressive, insulting, and overall unpleasant to be around". Whether it's feminism or just society in general becoming more confrontational I don't know. I always had a large group of friends, girls included, it's a shame boys tend to not have this anymore because it made me more well rounded and comfortable in general. I loved chasing girls, getting their numbers, calling them. Now if you chase a girl they take pleasure in humiliating you if they don't reciprocate feelings. It used to just be subtle signals to let you down easy, now they go nuclear on boys and all of Facebook about the pathetic little loser who dared talk to her, leaving boys no longer engaging girls.


My children are in their 20's. I have a lot of nieces/nephews in their 20's and 30's. They all have both male and female friends. I go to family events where a lot of their friends attend. They are all great kids... males and females and they are all friends.


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> Really, you have to spend 8 hours a day thinking about not commenting on the appearance and smell of the women you work with?
> 
> I've never had to spend one moment at work thinking about a desire to comment on the appearance and smell of the men I work with.
> 
> Saying once that you like someone's hair cut it not harassment. Saying that you like the color of their coat is not harassment. Commenting on perfume is not harassment.
> 
> However if the comments are constant or accompanied with other unwanted behaviors, then there can be a pattern of harassment.
> 
> If he comments on her boobs, cleavage, her ass, and other parts of her anatomy it can be harassment. Smell is another thing that can be harassment as there is a sexual undertone to that.
> 
> If the comments are about sexual acts the guy wants, that's clearly sexual harassment.
> 
> A man commenting on the appearance of a woman day after day, can be considered harassment if she asks him to stop and he does not.
> 
> And we can switch the genders on that since we know that women and sexually harass men and that homosexual men can sexually harass other men.


you don't think about it all 8 hours, please stop with the ridiculous exaggerations. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.

Sure, there are obvious harassments and if you do it repeatedly it can be harassment. Toss the book at 'em, but, please, I have seen it like this. Guy - "cool colors on your dress", 5 mins later, report to HR, rest of the day off w/o pay. That was all that happened. Didn't end up losing his job and now everyone is scared to talk, at all, to anyone of the opposite sex in the whole department. Really good for team building and morale. Roll eyes.

But men are telling you that they are changing behavior due to this issue and becoming robots. NOT good for anyone.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

naiveonedave said:


> actually, it does. ALL THE TIME. Do the bogus cases stick, probably not very often. But you can be darn well sure that even unsubstantiated claims against you may harm you in the future. Just think about what happened to Duke Lacross players. Most/all had to transfer, even though they were innocent. Seen the same thing happen at work multiple times. Not fired, but leave because doors no longer opened for them.
> 
> Every male on this thread is telling you they are changing behavior due to this. It might be prudent to listen, they aren't changing because it is fun or easy.


Any stats to back up harassment claims based off one simple compliment about her hair cut or coat? It doesn't happen. It is just not that simple to make a harassment claim. If you think this is what happened you do not have the whole story. 

Every male on this thread is a little ... "red pill" for me, the men in my life and work haven't changed a thing. TBH if it's just the red pill guys avoiding me I see that as a win.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> actually, it does. ALL THE TIME. Do the bogus cases stick, probably not very often. But you can be darn well sure that even unsubstantiated claims against you may harm you in the future. Just think about what happened to Duke Lacross players. Most/all had to transfer, even though they were innocent. Seen the same thing happen at work multiple times. Not fired, but leave because doors no longer opened for them.
> 
> Every male on this thread is telling you they are changing behavior due to this. It might be prudent to listen, they aren't changing because it is fun or easy.


Yet men I know in real life tell me that this is just not an issue.

I don't know any man at work who ever had a sexual harassment case brought against him. And I worked for fortune 50 firms that had thousands of employees.

I know women who left their jobs because they were being harassed. But they never sought to do anything about it because they knew that if they did they would be black listed, never get a promotion, never get a new job. So instead the women just went job hunting and found a new job. I did that in 1998 as well. I had a bad situation at work. A male coworker stated saying things like the has going to take me outside and beat me like a ***** and a lot more--in front of other employees. I even talked to a lawyer. She told me that she would take the case. But whether I won or not, if I filed a sexual harassment case it would go public and I would never find another job. So it was a huge risk. I needed to earn a living. So instead of filing a complaint and law suit I just found another job and quietly left the company.


----------



## knobcreek

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> My teen son has mostly female friends. Lovely girls. I'd say it's 70% girls, 30% boys in their group. And we always went nuclear on boys lol. Not me personally, I actually liked the attention back then then but my friend was mean. Now they are mean on social media but they were always mean. Boys too. I had a few humiliations if I asked the wrong boy out. It's high school, we all got crap. If my son said any one gender was mean and unpleasant I would be concerned why he thought that and try to correct it. That kind of thinking more often comes from home IMO.
> 
> Oh and the boys and girls are still very much engaging each other.


I suppose we all have our anecdotal evidence, my son is 6'2 looks like an Abercrombie model, we had him when my wife was 19 we call him her "young egg". His friends are all on sports, popular good looking kids, not social awkward kids or anything. They hang with each other and avoid hanging out with girls in social situations. They rotate girlfriends still, but never serious or for long. I know it's not just my kid or his group of friends because I've asked my friends and they confirm the same thing.


----------



## naiveonedave

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Any stats to back up harassment claims based off one simple compliment about her hair cut or coat? It doesn't happen. It is just not that simple to make a harassment claim. If you think this is what happened you do not have the whole story.
> 
> Every male on this thread is a little ... "red pill" for me, the men in my life and work haven't changed a thing. TBH if it's just the red pill guys avoiding me I see that as a win.


um, okay, where are your stats? IT is changing how men behave at work. Maybe this change is all based on lies and hearsay, but I really doubt that is the case. There is merit to it, whether you agree or not. Just because the men are changing how they go about interacting with women, the change is real. And, IMO, it is not a good change, for men and in many ways worse for women. Go back to the OP of the thread.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

naiveonedave said:


> you don't think about it all 8 hours, please stop with the ridiculous exaggerations. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.
> 
> Sure, there are obvious harassments and if you do it repeatedly it can be harassment. Toss the book at 'em, but, please, I have seen it like this. Guy - "cool colors on your dress", 5 mins later, report to HR, rest of the day off w/o pay. That was all that happened. Didn't end up losing his job and now everyone is scared to talk, at all, to anyone of the opposite sex in the whole department. Really good for team building and morale. Roll eyes.
> 
> But men are telling you that they are changing behavior due to this issue and becoming robots. NOT good for anyone.


This is a ridiculous exaggerations. It either didn't happen or this man had a history and warnings about leaving this woman alone before this "incident".


----------



## naiveonedave

EleGirl said:


> Yet men I know in real life tell me that this is just not an issue.
> 
> I don't know any man at work who ever had a sexual harassment case brought against him. And I worked for fortune 50 firms that had thousands of employees.
> 
> I know women who left their jobs because they were being harassed. But they never sought to do anything about it because they knew that if they did they would be black listed, never get a promotion, never get a new job. So instead the women just went job hunting and found a new job. I did that in 1998 as well. I had a bad situation at work. A male coworker stated saying things like the has going to take me outside and beat me like a ***** and a lot more--in front of other employees. I even talked to a lawyer. She told me that she would take the case. But whether I won or not, if I filed a sexual harassment case it would go public and I would never find another job. So it was a huge risk. I needed to earn a living. So instead of filing a complaint and law suit I just found another job and quietly left the company.


I am sure harrassers don't face enough justice, but that is not what the OP or most of this thread was about.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> you don't think about it all 8 hours, please stop with the ridiculous exaggerations. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT.
> 
> Sure, there are obvious harassments and if you do it repeatedly it can be harassment. Toss the book at 'em, but, please, I have seen it like this. Guy - "cool colors on your dress", 5 mins later, report to HR, rest of the day off w/o pay. That was all that happened. Didn't end up losing his job and now everyone is scared to talk, at all, to anyone of the opposite sex in the whole department. Really good for team building and morale. Roll eyes.
> 
> But men are telling you that they are changing behavior due to this issue and becoming robots. NOT good for anyone.


I worked from the age of 15 till I was 66 years old. I worked mostly around men since I am an engineer. I experienced and saw a lot of real harassment.... mostly in the past as it got better over time.

I have never once seen a guy brought up for any real harassment, much less for commenting on the colors of a woman's dress.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> um, okay, where are your stats? IT is changing how men behave at work. Maybe this change is all based on lies and hearsay, but I really doubt that is the case. There is merit to it, whether you agree or not. Just because the men are changing how they go about interacting with women, the change is real. And, IMO, it is not a good change, for men and in many ways worse for women. Go back to the OP of the thread.


Go back to the OP on this thread?

The op is about 3 buys yelling out "che bella" to come woman who was walking down the street. 

How is men stopping calling out "che bella" to women on the street hurting male/female relationships?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

naiveonedave said:


> um, okay, where are your stats? IT is changing how men behave at work. Maybe this change is all based on lies and hearsay, but I really doubt that is the case. There is merit to it, whether you agree or not. Just because the men are changing how they go about interacting with women, the change is real. And, IMO, it is not a good change, for men and in many ways worse for women. Go back to the OP of the thread.


I have stats about harassment at work somewhere here, pages back by now. 

None of us women personally know any man that has had to change. The only ones who have said they had to change are fairly radical anti-feminists. That's just not a loss for me.


----------



## knobcreek

I think what Dave is saying is that men are definitely changing their behavior and how they interact with women at work, whether people think it's justified or not, they are. Instead of navigating the grey area, or if I compliment her or say something benign and she thinks I'm ugly then I'm a creep, or if I compliment her and say something benign and I'm 6'0 and good looking then I'm just a funny co-worker, I just chose to take the guessing game out of it by not engaging. Not complimenting a haircut, or ask if she had a good weekend.

It's so bad that as a manager I let HR know that I'll be having a team lunch and I am going to ask female 1 and female 2 if they want to join us for lunch, just so it isn't misconstrued.


----------



## Buddy400

The problem is that it seems the way that evolution worked (and most women seem to prefer it) is for men to be the pursuers and for women to be the pursued.

Women, being the passive party, need to attract men's attention to find a partner.

Unfortunately, the women attracts both the attention of men she's attracted to (good) as well as men she's not attracted to (bad). 

I can understand that unwelcome attention can be off-putting and, in some instances, downright scary (men are, after all, generally larger and stronger).

But, the only way a man knows if his advances are unwelcome is by actually making the advance and there is no way (apparently) to know ahead of time which it will be. And, as obvious as it is to many, the rules are not at all clear. Even the most base come-on works with some women (even ****pics seem to work some of the time).

In an environment where an unwelcome advance could result in social ostracation, entries in HR files, job loss or even criminal charges, only a fool (or someone whose advances are almost universally welcomed) would take a chance on risking this. 

Either unwelcome advances can be legislated against or they can be accepted as an unfortunate side effect of the way men and women relate to each other.

There isn't really any cost to men in not making compliments and avoiding being in a closed office with a female co-worker or in not socializing with them after work. So, I'm not whining about all the problems this causes for men. Men like Bill O'Reilly (who has an excessive ego and is most certainly a clod) deserve what they get pretty much just because they were dense enough to think that, somehow, the rules didn't apply to them.

Is there a cost to women? 

The women who objected to Mike Pence's "never be alone with a woman" certainly thought it hurt women's chances to fully participate and achieve in the workforce. 

A woman wishes the man she's attracted to would approach her may be a casualty.

Women who want attractive men to approach them may wonder where all the self-confident men are.

My favorite women (my wife and daughter) are all set in the men department so my interest is only academic.

We could solve this problem by encouraging the social custom of women always approaching men instead of the other way around.

But from what I read here and elsewhere, that doesn't seem to be what women want either.


----------



## Buddy400

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But again, most cases are not taken seriously.


Men hear this all the time about college sexual harassment cases, the 'Mulva water cooler case', .....

"These are just extreme examples you quote. There's very few of these situations in real life"

But, if you'd heard about about people being mugged daily walking on Elm street and I reassure you that it really only happens once every two weeks, are you going to keep walking on Elm street?


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is that it seems the way that evolution worked (and most women seem to prefer it) is for men to be the pursuers and for women to be the pursued.
> 
> Women, being the passive party, need to attract men's attention to find a partner.
> 
> Unfortunately, the women attracts both the attention of men she's attracted to (good) as well as men she's not attracted to (bad).
> 
> I can understand that unwelcome attention can be off-putting and, in some instances, downright scary (men are, after all, generally larger and stronger).
> 
> But, the only way a man knows if his advances are unwelcome is by actually making the advance and there is no way (apparently) to know ahead of time which it will be. And, as obvious as it is to many, the rules are not at all clear. Even the most base come-on works with some women (even ****pics seem to work some of the time).
> 
> In an environment where an unwelcome advance could result in social ostracation, entries in HR files, job loss or even criminal charges, only a fool (or someone whose advances are almost universally welcomed) would take a chance on risking this.
> 
> Either unwelcome advances can be legislated against or they can be accepted as an unfortunate side effect of the way men and women relate to each other.
> 
> There isn't really any cost to men in not making compliments and avoiding being in a closed office with a female co-worker or in not socializing with them after work. So, I'm not whining about all the problems this causes for men. Men like Bill O'Reilly (who has an excessive ego and is most certainly a clod) deserve what they get pretty much just because they were dense enough to think that, somehow, the rules didn't apply to them.
> 
> Is there a cost to women?
> 
> The women who objected to Mike Pence's "never be alone with a woman" certainly thought it hurt women's chances to fully participate and achieve in the workforce.
> 
> A woman wishes the man she's attracted to would approach her may be a casualty.
> 
> Women who want attractive men to approach them may wonder where all the self-confident men are.
> 
> My favorite women (my wife and daughter) are all set in the men department so my interest is only academic.
> 
> We could solve this problem by encouraging the social custom of women always approaching men instead of the other way around.
> 
> But from what I read here and elsewhere, that doesn't seem to be what women want either.


There are ways for men and women to meet that do not entail yelling things at women when they walk by or trying to pick them up at work.

That said, there is a lot of picking up going on at work these days since over half of all affairs start at work.

Plus, 38 percent [of women] report they went on to marry the person they dated in the office. 

Clearly a lot of men and women have no issue with starting relationships with people they work with.

On top of that there are many many ways for men and women to meet each other: dating sites/apps, bars/clubs, friends fixing them up, the gym, things that people do like hiking groups, running groups, etc.

Clearly men and women are doing just fine meeting each other.


----------



## musicftw07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing. The vast majority of men HAVE found a new past time in the workplace: avoiding women at all costs.
> 
> You've gotten what you wanted. What I find funny is that, upon receiving the desired outcome vis a vis male behavior in the workplace, some women are dissatisfied with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Most women here have not noticed any avoiding and business and professional relationships have gone on as usual. Some women may be dissatisfied that they aren't getting cat called and flirted with at work anymore but for the most part, people are happy to just keep things professional and do their job.
> 
> Since most men were not harassing, they have continued on as they always have and know how to talk to a woman about topics other than how she smells or looks.
> 
> Some men went into extremist fear apparently avoiding women altogether, that's fine too. Do your job and I'll do mine. Don't care if you avoid me as long as you don't harass me. I haven't noticed any. I think it's a pretty small number of men who got so worried about 0 harassment policies that they had to stop talking to women at all.
> 
> Some women have avoided talking to men for a long time to avoid making it seem like harassment was wanted. They refuse to chat with a guy because some will think that means it's ok to flirt and she's open for business.
> 
> For some of these men, If I'm nice to a guy, I'm a tease and a sl*t, If I'm mean to a guy, I'm a b*tch and a c*nt. You can't win so you start avoiding. Start walking with your headphones in, start taking your breaks at a more isolated side of the building that has mostly females instead.
> 
> Overall the goal is the lessen sexual harassment in the workplace so we can all do our job, not make it easier for you to pick up women or make new friends.
> 
> Sexual harassment is a real problem. Not being able to tell Jane she smells good isn't a real problem. You're not the victims here.
Click to expand...




EleGirl said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SlowlyGoingCrazy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But to expand on this... There is a woman who sits across the aisle from me who on two occasions has directly told me publicly that I smell nice.
> 
> If telling someone they smell nice is harassment, then my next course of action should be to report her to HR.
> 
> Correct?
> 
> 
> 
> It is really not so easy, for either gender. First you are going to need proof or a witness, then you have to prove it's harassment and affecting your ability to work then it goes up a chain of command and out of the small % of people who report, less then half have any results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You just moved the goalposts. When we were talking about women being on the receiving end of harassment, you made it plainly clear that a man telling a woman she smells nice is harassment.
> 
> But when a woman does it to man, you say "Oh, well, it is really not so easy for either gender."
> 
> Which is it? Easy or not? Because I don't take anyone seriously who moves the goalposts so readily to suit their own narrative.
> 
> If it's not easy to determine harassment if someone tells you that you smell nice (as you now claim), then your own criterion of what actually constitutes harassment is false and I cannot accept your argument as valid.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, she did not move the goal post. It?s a fact that it?s not easy to prove sexual harassment whether you are male or a female.
> 
> While a person, male or female, might feel harassed it is still very hard to prove it to the point that action can be taken on the claim that you are being harassed.
Click to expand...

She literally posted this:



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Since most men were not harassing, they have continued on as they always have and know how to talk to a woman about topics other than how she smells or looks.


This directly implies that, if a man comments on how a woman smells or looks, then he is harassing her.

It was only after I said a woman at work has done that to me twice did she say it was hard to prove.

That is a direct goalpost shift. Or at the very least, highly disingenuous wording to paint men as bad and women as perpetual victims. And from my perspective, a gross double standard.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

musicftw07 said:


> She literally posted this:
> 
> 
> 
> This directly implies that, if a man comments on how a woman smells or looks, then he is harassing her.
> 
> It was only after I said a woman at work has done that to me twice did she say it was hard to prove.
> 
> That is a direct goalpost shift. Or at the very least, highly disingenuous wording to paint men as bad and women as perpetual victims. And from my perspective, a gross double standard.


I said _many _times that is is hard to prove. I'm also using "smell or looks" as examples because that is what some men are all upset about having to avoid, it's based on the thread not my specific definition of harassment. 

I also said specifically that I don't personally consider those comments harassment, unwanted many times but not harassment and that women were _not _making harassment claims about those comments

If you want to take my words out of context please at least read all of them.


----------



## Buddy400

NextTimeAround said:


> Since some of you men here crave the right to compliment women, would prefer a society that resorts to the second solution


I'm not sure which men here "crave" the right to compliment women.

I don't have much desire to and when it has occasionally occurred to me, it hasn't been a problem for me to suppress it.

Any men here "crave" complimenting women?


----------



## Mr. Nail

EleGirl said:


> There are ways for men and women to meet that do not entail yelling things at women when they walk by or trying to pick them up at work.
> 
> Clearly men and women are doing just fine meeting each other.


But the restriction on talking to women, or being alone with a woman, or making an inappropriate (unwanted) complement is not limited to the street and the workplace. It also includes the grocery store, and the gym, and the post office, and the bank, and the car dealership, and the courthouse, and as near as I can tell clubs and bars. I'm not really sure I can think of any place I can safely offer a genuine complement. 

As to men and women doing just fine at meeting other people. I have 4 unattached children between 19 and 27. 0% success at meeting.


----------



## musicftw07

EleGirl said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that it seems the way that evolution worked (and most women seem to prefer it) is for men to be the pursuers and for women to be the pursued.
> 
> Women, being the passive party, need to attract men's attention to find a partner.
> 
> Unfortunately, the women attracts both the attention of men she's attracted to (good) as well as men she's not attracted to (bad).
> 
> I can understand that unwelcome attention can be off-putting and, in some instances, downright scary (men are, after all, generally larger and stronger).
> 
> But, the only way a man knows if his advances are unwelcome is by actually making the advance and there is no way (apparently) to know ahead of time which it will be. And, as obvious as it is to many, the rules are not at all clear. Even the most base come-on works with some women (even ****pics seem to work some of the time).
> 
> In an environment where an unwelcome advance could result in social ostracation, entries in HR files, job loss or even criminal charges, only a fool (or someone whose advances are almost universally welcomed) would take a chance on risking this.
> 
> Either unwelcome advances can be legislated against or they can be accepted as an unfortunate side effect of the way men and women relate to each other.
> 
> There isn't really any cost to men in not making compliments and avoiding being in a closed office with a female co-worker or in not socializing with them after work. So, I'm not whining about all the problems this causes for men. Men like Bill O'Reilly (who has an excessive ego and is most certainly a clod) deserve what they get pretty much just because they were dense enough to think that, somehow, the rules didn't apply to them.
> 
> Is there a cost to women?
> 
> The women who objected to Mike Pence's "never be alone with a woman" certainly thought it hurt women's chances to fully participate and achieve in the workforce.
> 
> A woman wishes the man she's attracted to would approach her may be a casualty.
> 
> Women who want attractive men to approach them may wonder where all the self-confident men are.
> 
> My favorite women (my wife and daughter) are all set in the men department so my interest is only academic.
> 
> We could solve this problem by encouraging the social custom of women always approaching men instead of the other way around.
> 
> But from what I read here and elsewhere, that doesn't seem to be what women want either.
> 
> 
> 
> There are ways for men and women to meet that do not entail yelling things at women when they walk by or trying to pick them up at work.
> 
> That said, there is a lot of picking up going on at work these days since over half of all affairs start at work.
> 
> Plus, 38 percent [of women] report they went on to marry the person they dated in the office.
> 
> Clearly a lot of men and women have no issue with starting relationships with people they work with.
> 
> On top of that there are many many ways for men and women to meet each other: dating sites/apps, bars/clubs, friends fixing them up, the gym, things that people do like hiking groups, running groups, etc.
> 
> Clearly men and women are doing just fine meeting each other.
Click to expand...

You are taking one group and assigning it as the default attribute to all. Yes, some men and women start affairs at work. 

But affairs don't constitute the majority of all male/female sexual interaction. It isn't the default setting for heterosexual intimacy. While affairs may be common, I certainly don't think they are in the majority of all heterosexual encounters.

We're not talking about dating apps/sites, bars, concerts, etc. We're talking about heterosexual dynamics in the workplace. Comparing those dynamics is like comparing apples to orgies.

ETA: I meant to quote Ele. I have no idea what happened with this post or why it's got links. This is what I get for trying to post on a mobile!


----------



## Mr. Nail

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not sure which men here "crave" the right to compliment women.
> 
> I don't have much desire to and when it has occasionally occurred to me, it hasn't been a problem for me to suppress it.
> 
> Any men here "crave" complimenting women?


No craving here. Perfectly happy keeping my mouth shut. I just don't want any man reading this to be lulled into a false sense of safety.


----------



## Idyit

_"Comparing those dynamics is like comparing apples to orgies."_ LOL


----------



## knobcreek

A guy who works for me is recently divorced and tearing up the dating market wrote me saying he needed to run to the drug store so he was going to be a little late I said "get you Viagra and I'll see you when you get in". I know he laughed when he read that, same guy I'll ask if he wants to grab a drink after work, I'm confident I'm not going to end up in HR. No chance I break balls like that with a woman at the office or ask if she wants to grab a beer, I'm an executive manager so it probably is hurting women to be honest. Women come to my office, door open, and I do everything by the HR handbook.


----------



## musicftw07

Mr. Nail said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure which men here "crave" the right to compliment women.
> 
> I don't have much desire to and when it has occasionally occurred to me, it hasn't been a problem for me to suppress it.
> 
> Any men here "crave" complimenting women?
> 
> 
> 
> No craving here. Perfectly happy keeping my mouth shut. I just don't want any man reading this to be lulled into a false sense of safety.
Click to expand...

This. I went out of my way to NOT talk to the woman I crushed on at work and she still somehow fell in love with me. So not complimenting women at work certainly hasn't been a detriment in any way.

The crux is that it creates an adversarial work environment. I certainly won't go out of my way to be friendly towards, get to know, or align strategically with a woman at work of my own accord. She has to initiate it first. 

I take that HR training very seriously, and I have a lot to lose if someone perceives my behavior nefariously when my only motive was to be friendly.


----------



## Red Sonja

musicftw07 said:


> And thus why many men will not associate with women beyond a 100% professional capacity.
> 
> I take the hard stance and don't talk to women at work unless I have a legitimate business reason to do so. Three guesses as to why.


Bravo! If all men took this stance inside the work environment I would be overjoyed and it would make my professional life much more pleasant.


----------



## RoseAglow

It is interesting to read this thread.

Undoubtedly, things have changed for men and women in the workplace. For women, it has changed for the better. For one thing, women have much greater access to the workplace now; it's only one or two generations where it's a given that women can have careers after marriage, for example. 

For men, it is more challenging. In my field, women outnumber men in about a 75-25% split, from the Director-level down. Two of my male direct reports have been accused of sexual harassment, both when they were very new to the role. My direct reports go to hospitals/doctor's offices and review medical charts and drugs. We oversee clinical research for drug development, and my reports go to make sure that the sites are conducting the research appropriately. They hold the sites accountable for their work, which can be a difficult task with some conflict at times. 

In one case, I am as sure as I can get, without actually being there, that my direct report did not actually sexually harass the accuser. In the other case, I am less sure, but still pretty confident. In both cases, the accusations were vague. In both cases, my direct reports were going for the first time to "problem sites", which means the sites were behind on their work. My staff pointed this out to the site coordinators, and informed the overseeing physicians of their site's poor performance, which is the correct action. The site coordinators in both cases levied the accusations afterwards. It's an easy way to get a new person assigned to their site and divert attention away from their own poor performance.

As the manager, I worked with HR and the sites to investigate, and in both cases we thought that the accusations were false. The guys were cleared in each case. It didn't affect their careers- both were promoted according to normal timelines. But both were very upset about the accusations, of course! It was emotionally difficult. It is terrible to be unfairly accused. 

What I realized was that I had failed them as their manager. As indicated, both were new to the role, and I was pretty new to my role as well. I was supposed to be training them in their new position. I realized that I had missed a "cultural cue" that was ingrained as me as a woman, that the men had no reason to know about prior. One of the main ones was: be aware when you're alone with someone. I learned as a young teen, while it happened rarely, the times that a boy did try to grab at me, feel me up, force a kiss etc was when there no other people around. By the time I was a manager, I was in my 40s and had 20+ years of knowing "instinctively" to avoid being alone. 

Like most women, I was aware and careful when I was alone with a male site coordinator/pharmacist/imaging tech etc. I was much more relaxed when I was alone with a female site coordinator/pharmacist/imaging tech, etc. As I indicated earlier, my field is about 75% women, in both my role and in the hospitals/doctor's offices actually conducting the research, so most of my experience did not require as much alertness. I failed to share this with my team, and over my first two groups of trainees, two men were accused, 6 men had no accusations, and none of the women were accused. 

I had to spell it out for the guys, and I added a segment to my team training. I didn't split the training for men and women, because this is a case where everyone needs to have situational awareness. We all needed to be more aware of when we were alone at a site. We all need to make sure that we are visible/noticeable onsite. If a site person is in the room and you both are otherwise alone, keep the door open, speak loudly enough to be heard (not yelling), take breaks and leave the room and be seen by the other site staff. We can be sitting ducks for any number of accusations, whether it's sexual harassment, accepting bribes, being threatening, etc. We are going to anger some people who don't want to work, and we need to ensure our own professional and physical safety. 

It's been several years since and to date, there have been no other accusations. I am in a new company now, my team is currently 30% men, and still, no accusations. Hopefully there are zero accusations moving forward.

So my point with all of this is, I am not surprised that some behaviors have changed. I do think some men have a hard time figuring out where the boundaries now lie, and it will be different in each office/environment. 

That said, I believe most men, especially younger me, don't really have many issues in this new environment. Things have gotten much better for women in the workplace. I will certainly take all the strides we've made and continue forward with things like flex time, improved maternity and paternity leave, more access to dependent and health flexible spending accounts, and other family-friendly changes in the workplace.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

It's a shame that "feminism" was even thought to be necessary in the first place.

If women had been treated as equals from the get go, there would have been no need.

Now, as a result, some of the aggrieved feel the need to overcompensate, which only perpetuates the problems between the genders. However, I think that's still in the minority of people. As many have noted, they are doing just fine in the workplace. I, for one, refuse to live my life in fear, and that includes my professional life. I do attribute part of that to the fact that I display professional courtesy at all times with all colleagues, superiors, and subordinates, regardless of gender. By displaying unwavering integrity at all times, I'm somewhat insulated from misunderstandings; people who know me will give me the benefit of the doubt most of the time. That said, my professional relationships have always been centered exclusively on how each individual contributes to our mutual mission and what potential they display for greater responsibility. Even with this single-minded focus, I'm able to have casual, friendly relationships and I'm generally known as an easy going, warm and friendly peer/boss. If I say something nice, it's taken in the spirit offered. I am cautious to not say complimentary things that are generally considered to have a sexual overtone, but it's really easy to do and I do it easily without changing my general demeanor or how I relate to my professional contacts. Like everyone, I've heard the horror stories reported in the media, but I refuse to let that affect me. 

As an aside, I've never been able to understand the concept of (anything that could legitimately be called) sexual harassment. While I'm a fun loving guy at heart, I'm very much a mission first guy at work. All that matters is getting maximum contribution from everyone on my team. This can only be done if everyone on my team feels they are appreciated, recognized and rewarded in accordance with their contribution. Any pressure outside of contributing to the mission runs the risk of damaging the mission. So any competent manager, even if he was a total cad who had no concern for his fellow human being, is a shortsighted fool to do anything that is corrosive to his team. 

Beyond that, what exactly does the harasser hope to accomplish? If the subject of the harassment gives in to the harassment, he must know that she has no feeling for him, or more likely she does have feelings and they are all negative. We keep talking about how men need to be cherished by their partners. A relationship under coercion is the antithesis of that. Where do these guys come from and what the hell is going on in their heads!?! If it's a power and control thing, then it's obvious why some would recoil at the idea of feminism.


----------



## musicftw07

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's a shame that "feminism" was even thought to be necessary in the first place.
> 
> If women had been treated as equals from the get go, there would have been no need.
> 
> Now, as a result, some of the aggrieved feel the need to overcompensate, which only perpetuates the problems between the genders. However, I think that's still in the minority of people. As many have noted, they are doing just fine in the workplace. I, for one, refuse to live my life in fear, and that includes my professional life. I do attribute part of that to the fact that I display professional courtesy at all times with all colleagues, superiors, and subordinates, regardless of gender. By displaying unwavering integrity at all times, I'm somewhat insulated from misunderstandings; people who know me will give me the benefit of the doubt most of the time. That said, my professional relationships have always been centered exclusively on how each individual contributes to our mutual mission and what potential they display for greater responsibility. Even with this single-minded focus, I'm able to have casual, friendly relationships and I'm generally known as an easy going, warm and friendly peer/boss. If I say something nice, it's taken in the spirit offered. I am cautious to not say complimentary things that are generally considered to have a sexual overtone, but it's really easy to do and I do it easily without changing my general demeanor or how I relate to my professional contacts. Like everyone, I've heard the horror stories reported in the media, but I refuse to let that affect me.
> 
> As an aside, I've never been able to understand the concept of (anything that could legitimately be called) sexual harassment. While I'm a fun loving guy at heart, I'm very much a mission first guy at work. All that matters is getting maximum contribution from everyone on my team. This can only be done if everyone on my team feels they are appreciated, recognized and rewarded in accordance with their contribution. Any pressure outside of contributing to the mission runs the risk of damaging the mission. So any competent manager, even if he was a total cad who had no concern for his fellow human being, is a shortsighted fool to do anything that is corrosive to his team.
> 
> Beyond that, what exactly does the harasser hope to accomplish? If the subject of the harassment gives in to the harassment, he must know that she has no feeling for him, or more likely she does have feelings and they are all negative. We keep talking about how men need to be cherished by their partners. A relationship under coercion is the antithesis of that. Where do these guys come from and what the hell is going on in their heads!?! If it's a power and control thing, then it's obvious why some would recoil at the idea of feminism.


Good post. It really is a shame that women weren't treated as equals from the very beginning.

I also don't get men who sexually harass women, either. What's the point?! What purpose does it serve, and what could the dude possibly get out of it? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me at all why a person would willing make that choice. (And to be clear, those who do should be punished accordingly, both men and women.)

And I completely understand women not wanting to work in environments like that. It is reprehensible, and everybody should be allowed to work in a safe place.

What I don't understand is the ever increasingly prevalent default state by some women that any interaction they have with a man is automatically placed through the "harassment" filter to be broken down and analyzed. 

What I also don't understand is why women denigrate men who leave them alone on the workplace after telling us to leave them alone in the workplace. If I'm damned if I do (engage women) and damned if I don't (not engage women), then I choose to be damned if I don't every time. Less energy is expended, and I'm getting laid regardless of what other women think of my attitude.


----------



## RandomDude

Ey? Meh

I believe in equal opportunity but not equality - as theres no such thing.

Anyway I am also guilty of hitting on colleagues/associates in my line of work, but not one sexual harassment case so far  
Just have to be a gentleman about it and don't make a move unless you are certain the attraction is mutual. I have a theory that this is the actual problem: Inability of many men to discern a woman's attraction to them subtly, not that women are being too sensitive or that men are being too aggressive.


----------



## Mr. Nail

RandomDude said:


> Ey? Meh
> 
> I believe in equal opportunity but not equality - as theres no such thing.
> 
> Anyway I am also guilty of hitting on colleagues/associates in my line of work, but not one sexual harassment case so far
> Just have to be a gentleman about it and don't make a move unless you are certain the attraction is mutual. I have a theory that this is the actual problem: *Inability of many men to discern a woman's attraction to them subtly,* not that women are being too sensitive or that men are being too aggressive.


Of course the odds of guessing correctly go up with the mans general attractiveness. But you are still not safe from the wrong day case.


----------



## knobcreek

Mr. Nail said:


> Of course the odds of guessing correctly go up with the mans general attractiveness. But you are still not safe from the wrong day case.


Watch TV Funhouse: Sexual Harassment and You From Saturday Night Live - NBC.com

Safe for work


----------



## RandomDude

^ Heh you mean this (sorry can't view outside U.S.) :






:rofl:

Still, women are not so complicated, they are just like cats:










Just have to read their body language 
Regardless of attractiveness!


----------



## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> But the restriction on talking to women, or being alone with a woman, or making an inappropriate (unwanted) complement is not limited to the street and the workplace. It also includes the grocery store, and the gym, and the post office, and the bank, and the car dealership, and the courthouse, and as near as I can tell clubs and bars. I'm not really sure I can think of any place I can safely offer a genuine complement.
> 
> As to men and women doing just fine at meeting other people. I have 4 unattached children between 19 and 27. 0% success at meeting.


I have no idea why your children have problems finding someone to date and/or married. I have about 26 nieces/nephews and 3 children. None of them have any problem finding people to date and marry. And then there are the many friends of theirs who also have no problem finding people to date and/or marry.


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are ways for men and women to meet that do not entail yelling things at women when they walk by or trying to pick them up at work.
> 
> That said, there is a lot of picking up going on at work these days since over half of all affairs start at work.
> 
> Plus, 38 percent [of women] report they went on to marry the person they dated in the office.
> 
> Clearly a lot of men and women have no issue with starting relationships with people they work with.
> 
> On top of that there are many many ways for men and women to meet each other: dating sites/apps, bars/clubs, friends fixing them up, the gym, things that people do like hiking groups, running groups, etc.
> 
> Clearly men and women are doing just fine meeting each other.
> 
> 
> 
> You are taking one group and assigning it as the default attribute to all. Yes, some men and women start affairs at work.
Click to expand...




musicftw07 said:


> But affairs don't constitute the majority of all male/female sexual interaction. It isn't the default setting for heterosexual intimacy. While affairs may be common, I certainly don't think they are in the majority of all heterosexual encounters.


Nor did I ever say that affairs constitute the majority of all male/female sexual interaction. So I have no idea why you are trying to put those words in my mouth.
I clearly stated that “38 percent [of women] report they went on to marry the person they dated in the office.” That’s a lot of couple who date people that they meet at work. So clearly a lot of people do are not afraid to talk to people of the opposite sex at work.
Add to that 38% who date/marry, the large number of affairs between co-workers and I think it’s fair to day that there are a lot of people out there who are not all that concerned about talking to people of the opposite sex at work.



musicftw07 said:


> We're not talking about dating apps/sites, bars, concerts, etc. We're talking about heterosexual dynamics in the workplace. Comparing those dynamics is like comparing apples to orgies.


No, this thread is not about heterosexual dynamics at work. This thread is about whether or not feminism has harmed male/female relationships because in some places it’s not acceptable for men to cat call and make sexually-loaded comments to women that they don’t even know. The thread is about any venue where men and women can meet, walk by each other (on the street, etc.

I brought up apps/sites, bars, concerts, etc. because some people are saying that men being discouraged from making sexually loaded comments, cat calls, etc. is making it hard to men and women to meet each other. After all you say that none of your children can meet anyone. You did not say that they cannot meet anyone at work.. but they cannot meet anyone to date/marry at all.



musicftw07 said:


> ETA: I meant to quote Ele. I have no idea what happened with this post or why it's got links. This is what I get for trying to post on a mobile!


It has links because I put a link in it to an article.


----------



## EleGirl

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I said _many _times that is is hard to prove. I'm also using "smell or looks" as examples because that is what some men are all upset about having to avoid, it's based on the thread not my specific definition of harassment.
> 
> I also said specifically that I don't personally consider those comments harassment, unwanted many times but not harassment and that women were _not _making harassment claims about those comments
> 
> If you want to take my words out of context please at least read all of them.


I agree. Harassment is not a onetime or occasional comment. 

"On the other hand, criminal harassment is usually confined to state law. States vary in how they define criminal harassment. Generally, criminal harassment entails intentionally targeting someone else with behavior that is meant to alarm, annoy, torment or terrorize them. Not all petty annoyances constitute harassment. Instead, most state laws require that the behavior cause a credible threat to the person's safety or their family's safety."

Harassment - FindLaw

My boss telling me about his wet dreams is harassment. 

Some guy who yells out "che bella" is not harassment. It can be an annoyance.

A co-worker to says he likes the new haircut is no harassment.


----------



## tech-novelist

BetrayedDad said:


> Wasn't some PUA trickery in this case. This guy was a hardcore red piller after a woman tricked him into getting pregnant with his now kid.
> 
> He had no reason to lie and he told me straight up he had ZERO interest and only banged her cause she was literally THROWING herself at him.
> 
> Even after calling her a bunch of names and telling her to go away repeatedly. Such is the life of a Chad...


I didn't say that it was used as a PUA trick, only that it COULD be used as such.


----------



## tech-novelist

Thor said:


> I've not said it is an inconvenience. It is a change in normal male/female interactions due to feminism, which was the original topic. And, due to the zero tolerance world we are in, a perceived or imagined transgression is a career ending threat. Inconvenience? No. Unpleasantness and concern, yes.
> 
> Again you have conflated normal genuine polite interaction with harassment. 1=infinity. Because there is still harassment in some workplaces, all compliments are bad. You obviously don't want any non-work related interactions with coworkers, so you believe no women want such interactions and you want all such interactions banned. You won. It has been banned. Men are guilty upon accusation.
> 
> I agree with you. I do not compliment coworkers. I avoid 1 on 1 interactions except in public spaces. I do not socialize outside of work duty hours with female coworkers.
> 
> To you, receiving a compliment is a stress inducing event. To me, giving a compliment or even thinking about giving a compliment is a stress inducing event. *If we are coworkers I will not be complimenting you or socializing on or off the job*. You are getting what you want. Why am I still your enemy if I am doing what you want?


I would be very interested in an actual response to this but won't hold my breath waiting for one.


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> Good post. It really is a shame that women weren't treated as equals from the very beginning.
> 
> I also don't get men who sexually harass women, either. What's the point?! What purpose does it serve, and what could the dude possibly get out of it? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me at all why a person would willing make that choice. (And to be clear, those who do should be punished accordingly, both men and women.)
> 
> And I completely understand women not wanting to work in environments like that. It is reprehensible, and everybody should be allowed to work in a safe place.


There are many reasons, probably particular to the man. I mean why did my boss tell me about his wet dreams? Was it because he was diluted that this was a way to make a pass and that the had a chance in hell with me? Or was it because he was in a position of power over me and knew that there was nothing I could do. And that power made him feel better about himself? 



musicftw07 said:


> What I don't understand is the ever increasingly prevalent default state by some women that any interaction they have with a man is automatically placed through the "harassment" filter to be broken down and analyzed.


This is some women, probably a very small subset of very paranoid women.



musicftw07 said:


> What I also don't understand is why women denigrate men who leave them alone on the workplace after telling us to leave them alone in the workplace. If I'm damned if I do (engage women) and damned if I don't (not engage women), then I choose to be damned if I don't every time. Less energy is expended, and I'm getting laid regardless of what other women think of my attitude.


I'm not sure what "women denigrate men who leave them alone on the workplace after telling us to leave them alone in the workplace." What?

What do you mean by "engage" women at work?


----------



## EleGirl

tech-novelist said:


> I would be very interested in an actual response to this but won't hold my breath waiting for one.


Here is a response that was given...



wild jade said:


> You come across as being quite upset by this state of affairs, and basically saying that men can no longer give compliments, that you have to censure yourself, and that this is damaging to male female relations.
> 
> I have to say, I don't see this at all. I see people giving each other compliments all the time, I don't see anyone stressing out about harassment complaints, and I really don't see any damage to male-female relations -- unless you call not being able to sexually harass women at work as "damage".
> 
> I'm guessing we work at very different places with very different work cultures?
> 
> Even so, I'm inclined to agree with @SlowlyGoingCrazy that you seem to be placing the blame in the wrong places.


----------



## Personal

EleGirl said:


> I clearly stated that “38 percent [of women] report they went on to marry the person they dated in the office.” That’s a lot of couple who date people that they meet at work. So clearly a lot of people do are not afraid to talk to people of the opposite sex at work.


Just over 21 years ago when my wife and I first met and started dating, we both worked in an editorial department (a few desks apart) of a very large (left leaning) corporate media company. We certainly weren't afraid to talk to one another and no one else seemed to be afraid to talk to members of the opposite sex either.

My wife now works in government management roles, yet she has no problems talking to other men in the workplace whether they are from the general public or are her subordinates, colleagues or superiors.



EleGirl said:


> This thread is about whether or not feminism has harmed male/female relationships because in some places it’s not acceptable for men to cat call and make sexually-loaded comments to women that they don’t even know. The thread is about any venue where men and women can meet, walk by each other (on the street, etc.


I don't think feminism has harmed male/female relationships, in fact I think feminism has been a positive thing for such relationships.

I have enjoyed a splendid ongoing relationship with my wife, Who has been a tremendous friend and sex mate through 21 years.

Our first date was going to a park at lunchtime while at work so she could participate in a political rally with some of her fellow Feminist Collective friends (since my wife used to be a Feminist activist and organiser). Which we followed with an evening date on the same day where we ate out, watched a film called Trainspotting and then spent the night together (all the way sex followed on our next date).


----------



## wild jade

Yes, if there is a chill out there damaging social relations between men and women, I haven't noticed it. 

Just yesterday I had a meeting with a male co-worker in a closed office, and as it was at the end of the day, we even had a little drink together to celebrate a coup in a project we'd been working on. There was some pleasant conversation, some business, and then we went home to our respective partners and families. No flirting, nothing inappropriate, just some general compliments about a job well done and planning for the next step. 

And when I'm out and about in the world, I sometimes chat to random strangers, you know, the ones you're in the elevator or the line-up with, the ones who noticed your hands were completely full and opened the door for you, the ones you see every day because you have similar routines. I just don't see this chill, or avoidance. 

I will say that I have noticed a whole lot less cat-calling than when I was young. Back then I couldn't walk anywhere without it happening at least once, but I haven't heard one in couple of decades. I assumed it was because I'm old, and so no longer cat-call worthy, but maybe men do it less? At any rate, that's no loss as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## wild jade

musicftw07 said:


> I also don't get men who sexually harass women, either. What's the point?! What purpose does it serve, and what could the dude possibly get out of it? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me at all why a person would willing make that choice. (And to be clear, those who do should be punished accordingly, both men and women.)
> 
> .


It's a power trip, pure and simple. The guys that do this get off on making others, particularly women, feel uncomfortable. At least that's been my experience. The trick to making it stop has always been (for me) to not let it make me feel uncomfortable. 

I don't have any experience with flipped gender roles, but I'd bet it's the same dynamic.


----------



## GTdad

I have a question about cat-calling. I've lived in the Houston area and central Texas for nearly 40 years, and I've tried to remember if in all that time I've ever witnessed it and I don't think I have. I picture it being a NYC thing, I guess from movies and such, and I'm wondering if my experience is uncommon.

Is cat-calling a fairly common thing in the US?


----------



## knobcreek

GTdad said:


> Is cat-calling a fairly common thing in the US?


No, it's greatly exaggerated by people into a fake problem, I've never witnessed it ever in my entire life. I've lived in 5 different states, country, city, and I've never heard actual cat-calling. I'm sure it has happened but it's so isolated and rare as to not even remotely be a societal issue.


----------



## FrenchFry

This is why it's a problem that has to be legally enforced with hard lines, by the way. 

Men never see it, men never catcall or harass women and its so odd and I WOULD NEVER ever do that and my gosh it so awful that that happened to you.

Men seem to be insanely or deliberately blind to this stuff and seriously every woman I've ever had the chance to go in depth with about this has at least one sketchy story. 

If it was up to men alone to police this crap it wouldn't happen.

I live in the mountain west. I got catcalled on the way to coffee this morning. Honked at too. Awesome.


----------



## GTdad

FrenchFry said:


> This is why it's a problem that has to be legally enforced with hard lines, by the way.
> 
> Men never see it, men never catcall or harass women and its so odd and I WOULD NEVER ever do that and my gosh it so awful that that happened to you.
> 
> Men seem to be insanely or deliberately blind to this stuff and seriously every woman I've ever had the chance to go in depth with about this has at least one sketchy story.
> 
> If it was up to men alone to police this crap it wouldn't happen.
> 
> I live in the mountain west. I got catcalled on the way to coffee this morning. Honked at too. Awesome.


Okay, I'm not some clueless ******* walking around with blinders on. In my position I see most sexual harassment complaints in an organization with around 40,000 employees. In my experience, sexual harassment complaints are valid much more often than complaints about other forms of discrimination. I'm not blind to it, I just haven't seen cat-calling. That's not to say that I haven't seen a lot of other crappy behavior.

And interestingly, the administrator I've butted heads with the most as far as taking appropriate action against perps (i.e., firing their ass) is a woman, an engineer by training, who apparently believes that if she got through it, all woman should be able to and that, again apparently, they should just suck it up. Luckily the Top Dog, a man, sided with me, particularly after the Title IX study at UT which revealed that many more women than we thought had experienced harassment, and the female administrator is now gone.

Please don't insult me by assuming something about me which isn't true.


----------



## knobcreek

GTdad said:


> Please don't insult me by assuming something about me which isn't true.


I think she was directing that at my reply:



> "No, it's greatly exaggerated by people into a fake problem, I've never witnessed it ever in my entire life. I've lived in 5 different states, country, city, and I've never heard actual cat-calling. I'm sure it has happened but it's so isolated and rare as to not even remotely be a societal issue."


----------



## RaceTrack1975

Ha Buddy400 asked a good question. I've been thinking about issues like this for much of my life. When I make eye contact with a woman I often feel a rush of panic because I am afraid of being accused of staring or whatever. I know a neighbors daughter who is in college who refers to men as creepy on a regular basis. But anyway, I look away. Recently I've decided (since I'm married and all) to not care what people think so much. So, I've decided to smile and act like I've known the person (male or female) for years. "Hey, how are you!?!" Some people react in kind while others stare like I'm the devil himself or something. Oh well, their problem. 

I know this woman who is a very avid fitness trainer. She can start out lying on her back with a 30-40 lb weight in one hand and rise to the standing position without touching either hand to the floor for support. Suffice it to say she could best many a man in a contest of fisticuffs. I recently saw a picture of her holding a young girl on her hip (probably the aforementioned 30-40 lb weight I saw her lifting). They were both flexing their bicep muscles and the caption talked about empowering girls or something. On the surface this sounds great, but I started elementary school in 1980. My K-2 grade teachers were fresh grads of the American university system. I was taught two basic "truths:" (1) I could do anything I wanted, but (2) any girl could anything I did better. It is strongly believed by many people that the US educational system is leaving boys behind at an alarming rate because boys are loud, obnoxious, smelly and so forth. Can't we just empower **children**? Why do we have to start out kids with this mentality of one gender over another? I want to see my son make a ton of money in the field of study of his choosing. I want the same for my daughter and if she can learn to bench/deadlift/squat appropriate percentages of her body weight that would please me too. Men and women are equal but different and that is okay. I understand that that simple statement has a lot of stuff that can be unpacked and questioned, but at the core we're all human. Why does gender have to be a political thing?


----------



## FrenchFry

knobcreek said:


> I think she was directing that at my reply:


Yep. Sorry @GTdad.


----------



## RaceTrack1975

FrenchFry said:


> This is why it's a problem that has to be legally enforced with hard lines, by the way.
> 
> Men never see it, men never catcall or harass women and its so odd and I WOULD NEVER ever do that and my gosh it so awful that that happened to you.
> 
> Men seem to be insanely or deliberately blind to this stuff and seriously every woman I've ever had the chance to go in depth with about this has at least one sketchy story.
> 
> If it was up to men alone to police this crap it wouldn't happen.
> 
> I live in the mountain west. I got catcalled on the way to coffee this morning. Honked at too. Awesome.


I worked in a retail store when I was in high school. I cleaned up a mess in the stock room once and when I told my female boss that I was done she was putting on lipstick. She said, "Good, want a kiss?" I just kind of looked at her. Then, she said something to the effect that if I cleaned up more of the mess she'd have sex with me. I don't believe for a second she intended to kiss or sleep with me, but her words were sexual harassment, no? I cleaned up the stock room as part of the duties for which I was paid money, not to be joked with about sexual things (I was a teenage boy for heaven's sake).

I have even seen a forum where daughters were complaining about the inappropriate sexually charged things their mothers were saying to them and of course we see female teachers being arrested for rape/sexual assault. So, as a man I see a lot. Yes, I've worked with some creepy men, but I've seen some inappropriate women too.


----------



## Dannip

This destroys men. 

https://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29757/

After they are betaized... feminists grow out of their activism and start looking to get married and have families and complain "where are all the real men" - after they spend years neutering them. They can't find a decent guy.


----------



## BetrayedDad

knobcreek said:


> No, it's greatly exaggerated by people into a fake problem


This. My ex-girlfriend used to be like this.... a professional victim and EVERYONE was out to get, sexually harass, or screw her over DAILY in her paranoid mind.

I've never seen a guy cat call someone (except in the movies) and my circle of friends used to have frequent "Trump locker room" talks with each other.


----------



## RandomDude

Cat-calling is rare but happens from time to time where I live. Most of the time the guy is drunk.


----------



## EleGirl

GTdad said:


> I have a question about cat-calling. I've lived in the Houston area and central Texas for nearly 40 years, and I've tried to remember if in all that time I've ever witnessed it and I don't think I have. I picture it being a NYC thing, I guess from movies and such, and I'm wondering if my experience is uncommon.
> 
> Is cat-calling a fairly common thing in the US?


Like you said, it's generally something that happens in big cities like NYC. In some parts of NYC it's very prevalent. In other parts it's not. 

Despite what the article in the OP makes it sound like, it's not even all that prevalent in most of Italy. Again it's more a big city thing, like it Naples, parts of Rome.

However, even if it does not happen 24/7 along every street it happens. 

About 4 years ago I had to stop walking home from work because the men who work in a body shop I had to walk by because so belligerent with their cat calls that it was getting scary. The last time I walked, one of them was crossing the street and yelling things at me. Scared the carp out me.


----------



## EleGirl

GTdad said:


> Okay, I'm not some clueless ******* walking around with blinders on. In my position I see most sexual harassment complaints in an organization with around 40,000 employees. In my experience, sexual harassment complaints are valid much more often than complaints about other forms of discrimination. I'm not blind to it, I just haven't seen cat-calling. That's not to say that I haven't seen a lot of other crappy behavior.
> 
> And interestingly, the administrator I've butted heads with the most as far as taking appropriate action against perps (i.e., firing their ass) is a woman, an engineer by training, who apparently believes that if she got through it, all woman should be able to and that, again apparently, they should just suck it up. Luckily the Top Dog, a man, sided with me, particularly after the Title IX study at UT which revealed that many more women than we thought had experienced harassment, and the female administrator is now gone.
> 
> Please don't insult me by assuming something about me which isn't true.


There are a fair number of women with that attitude. It's sad.


----------



## EleGirl

RaceTrack1975 said:


> I worked in a retail store when I was in high school. I cleaned up a mess in the stock room once and when I told my female boss that I was done she was putting on lipstick. She said, "Good, want a kiss?" I just kind of looked at her. Then, she said something to the effect that if I cleaned up more of the mess she'd have sex with me. I don't believe for a second she intended to kiss or sleep with me, but her words were sexual harassment, no? I cleaned up the stock room as part of the duties for which I was paid money, not to be joked with about sexual things (I was a teenage boy for heaven's sake).
> 
> I have even seen a forum where daughters were complaining about the inappropriate sexually charged things their mothers were saying to them and of course we see female teachers being arrested for rape/sexual assault. So, as a man I see a lot. Yes, I've worked with some creepy men, but I've seen some inappropriate women too.


If you read all the posts on this thread, we have also been talking about the fact that there are some women who sexually harass males at work and other places. Did you miss that?


----------



## musicftw07

EleGirl said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good post. It really is a shame that women weren't treated as equals from the very beginning.
> 
> I also don't get men who sexually harass women, either. What's the point?! What purpose does it serve, and what could the dude possibly get out of it? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me at all why a person would willing make that choice. (And to be clear, those who do should be punished accordingly, both men and women.)
> 
> And I completely understand women not wanting to work in environments like that. It is reprehensible, and everybody should be allowed to work in a safe place.
> 
> 
> 
> There are many reasons, probably particular to the man. I mean why did my boss tell me about his wet dreams? Was it because he was diluted that this was a way to make a pass and that the had a chance in hell with me? Or was it because he was in a position of power over me and knew that there was nothing I could do. And that power made him feel better about himself?
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't understand is the ever increasingly prevalent default state by some women that any interaction they have with a man is automatically placed through the "harassment" filter to be broken down and analyzed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is some women, probably a very small subset of very paranoid women.
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I also don't understand is why women denigrate men who leave them alone on the workplace after telling us to leave them alone in the workplace. If I'm damned if I do (engage women) and damned if I don't (not engage women), then I choose to be damned if I don't every time. Less energy is expended, and I'm getting laid regardless of what other women think of my attitude.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not sure what "women denigrate men who leave them alone on the workplace after telling us to leave them alone in the workplace." What?
> 
> What do you mean by "engage" women at work?
Click to expand...

Just like it's only some men that harass, a very small subset of men, and yet you have to take measures necessary to protect yourself.

Women who cry harassment at the drop of a hat may indeed be a small subset, but just like with that one guy out of 100 who may harass you, we have to protect ourselves from that one woman out of 100 who will go to HR over a simple "Lovely morning today" claiming I hit on her.

All it takes is one.

Look at this thread. A number of men have said we have pulled significantly back in the workplace and many women have derided us for it. We give you what you want, and we're told we're paranoid for doing so.

"Engage" as in treat a woman at work like how I would treat an acquaintance elsewhere in society. I don't do that at work. I don't solicit friendship, I don't solicit working partnerships, and I don't make small talk. I'll happily chit-chat with anyone in line at the grocery store, male or female. But I wouldn't engage in that type of chit-chat with a woman at work.

All it takes is one.


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> Just like it's only some men that harass, a very small subset of men, and yet you have to take measures necessary to protect yourself.
> 
> Women who cry harassment at the drop of a hat may indeed be a small subset, but just like with that one guy out of 100 who may harass you, we have to protect ourselves from that one woman out of 100 who will go to HR over a simple "Lovely morning today" claiming I hit on her.
> 
> All it takes is one.
> 
> Look at this thread. A number of men have said we have pulled significantly back in the workplace and many women have derided us for it. We give you what you want, and we're told we're paranoid for doing so.
> 
> "Engage" as in treat a woman at work like how I would treat an acquaintance elsewhere in society. I don't do that at work. I don't solicit friendship, I don't solicit working partnerships, and I don't make small talk. I'll happily chit-chat with anyone in line at the grocery store, male or female. But I wouldn't engage in that type of chit-chat with a woman at work.
> 
> All it takes is one.


Do you treat men at work like you would an acquaintance elsewhere? Do you realize that the men can also accuse you of harassing them? If someone at work wants to falsely accuse you of harassing them, it can come from anyone.


----------



## RaceTrack1975

EleGirl said:


> If you read all the posts on this thread, we have also been talking about the fact that there are some women who sexually harass males at work and other places. Did you miss that?


I probably missed a few, but this was a response to a specific post. Thank you. I don't really know why you took the time to write this to me.:surprise:


----------



## musicftw07

EleGirl said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just like it's only some men that harass, a very small subset of men, and yet you have to take measures necessary to protect yourself.
> 
> Women who cry harassment at the drop of a hat may indeed be a small subset, but just like with that one guy out of 100 who may harass you, we have to protect ourselves from that one woman out of 100 who will go to HR over a simple "Lovely morning today" claiming I hit on her.
> 
> All it takes is one.
> 
> Look at this thread. A number of men have said we have pulled significantly back in the workplace and many women have derided us for it. We give you what you want, and we're told we're paranoid for doing so.
> 
> "Engage" as in treat a woman at work like how I would treat an acquaintance elsewhere in society. I don't do that at work. I don't solicit friendship, I don't solicit working partnerships, and I don't make small talk. I'll happily chit-chat with anyone in line at the grocery store, male or female. But I wouldn't engage in that type of chit-chat with a woman at work.
> 
> All it takes is one.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you treat men at work like you would an acquaintance elsewhere? Do you realize that the men can also accuse you of harassing them? If someone at work wants to falsely accuse you of harassing them, it can come from anyone.
Click to expand...

Statistically, women file the overwhelming majority of harassment suits. You know this, Ele.

I could just as easily say that women can be harassed by other women, but this thread hasn't given me the impression that you ladies are concerned about that. Your harassment rhetoric is clearly male-focused.

So do you realize that harassment and catcalling can come from anyone?


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> Statistically, women file the overwhelming majority of harassment suits. You know this, Ele.
> 
> I could just as easily say that women can be harassed by other women, but this thread hasn't given me the impression that you ladies are concerned about that. Your harassment rhetoric is clearly male-focused.


This thread is male-focused because the OP focused on the topic of males cat calling women. If you want to start a thread about women cat calling men and sexually harassing men at work, by all means do.

Yes there are some women who sexually harass other women. I've never experienced this. That's why I've not brought it up. 

Women bring up sexual harassment suits more often because the most common case is men harassing women.



musicftw07 said:


> So do you realize that harassment and catcalling can come from anyone?


https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/sexual_harassment_new.cfm

Tell me, how many men have sexually harassed you at work?

How many women have sexually harassed you at work?


----------



## EleGirl

RaceTrack1975 said:


> I probably missed a few, but this was a response to a specific post. Thank you. I don't really know why you took the time to write this to me.:surprise:


TAM is an open forum. You will find that everyone responds to any post they want to respond to. If this offends you, you will find this a hard place to participate.


----------



## RaceTrack1975

EleGirl said:


> TAM is an open forum. You will find that everyone responds to any post they want to respond to. If this offends you, you will find this a hard place to participate.


Okay, I'm not going down that road. If you wish to respond to my post and talk about the points I made, great. Otherwise please stop.


----------



## musicftw07

EleGirl said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Statistically, women file the overwhelming majority of harassment suits. You know this, Ele.
> 
> I could just as easily say that women can be harassed by other women, but this thread hasn't given me the impression that you ladies are concerned about that. Your harassment rhetoric is clearly male-focused.
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is male-focused because the OP focused on the topic of males cat calling women. If you want to start a thread about women cat calling men and sexually harassing men at work, by all means do.
> 
> Yes there are some women who sexually harass other women. I've never experienced this. That's why I've not brought it up.
> 
> Women bring up sexual harassment suits more often because the most common case is men harassing women.
> 
> 
> 
> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So do you realize that harassment and catcalling can come from anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/statistics/enforcement/sexual_harassment_new.cfm
> 
> Tell me, how many men have sexually harassed you at work?
> 
> How many women have sexually harassed you at work?
Click to expand...

Likewise, the most common case is for a woman to file a harassment suit against a man.

A man filing a sexual harassment suit against another man is a statical outlier compared to the norm. So you saying that "A man could file a sexual harassment suit against you too" is a very lame argument, as it does not represent statistical reality at all.

Possible? Yes.

Likely? Not even close.

I do not deny that the most common case is for a man to harass a woman. That is a solid fact.

Are you arguing that women do not file the overwhelming majority of all harassment cases? Because if they do (which they do), then why even say a man might file a bogus claim on me in the first place?

I have never been sexually harassed by a man at work.

I have been sexually harassed by a woman three times.

By the way, that chart indicates that men file suits only 16% of the time, and that over 50% of all suits are dismissed with "no reasonable cause".

Sure seems to indicate that women file the vast majority of sexual harassment suits, and that over half of them are bogus.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

musicftw07 said:


> Likewise, the most common case is for a woman to file a harassment suit against a man.
> 
> A man filing a sexual harassment suit against another man is a statical outlier compared to the norm. So you saying that "A man could file a sexual harassment suit against you too" is a very lame argument, as it does not represent statistical reality at all.
> 
> Possible? Yes.
> 
> Likely? Not even close.
> 
> I do not deny that the most common case is for a man to harass a woman. That is a solid fact.
> 
> Are you arguing that women do not file the overwhelming majority of all harassment cases? Because if they do (which they do), then why even say a man might file a bogus claim on me in the first place?
> 
> I have never been sexually harassed by a man at work.
> 
> I have been sexually harassed by a woman three times.
> 
> By the way, that chart indicates that men file suits only 16% of the time, and that over 50% of all suits are dismissed with "no reasonable cause".
> 
> Sure seems to indicate that women file the vast majority of sexual harassment suits, and that over half of them are bogus.


A dismissal of a claim or suit doesn't automatically mean it was bogus. Most harassment takes place behind closed doors between just two people. In the absence of audio or video evidence, or corroborating witness testimony, it can be impossible to prove. Impossible to prove doesn't mean it didn't happen. And therein lies the most challenging aspect of this whole topic. From a woman's point of view, she may feel subject to harassment at any time with no recourse. From a man's point of view, he will often feel women are overreacting or misunderstanding. Without actually being a fly on the wall in the room at the time, it's impossible to know, so we tend to fall back on our own feelings and experiences, which may or may not be representative of society as a whole, and may or may not bear any similarity to a particular case at hand.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I've been cat called in my small city. Usually punks in their fancy lifted trucks driving by way too fast. It most often happens when there is a group of guys. I roll my eyes, if I'm with my kids it's more of a pain by I don't usually care too much cause they are gone in a second. 

I get the random compliment that can become dangerous when I'm on the sidewalk walking or rarely out for a smoke break on the side of my building. Then I just go inside and security is there. The walking part is the one I worry about cause sometimes I use pathways that are secluded and no one around. 

Late night drunks are terrible, I've had to hide out in a 24 hour convenient store until they finally left. 2 jerks on bikes. There were a couple times I called my ex (when we were together) to ask if he could meet walk to meet me halfway cause I was getting harassed by drunks and part of my walk is through a secluded pathway with no lights or people. Though saying that loudly enough on the phone made them stop following me both times. 

This is all in my small city. When I lived in a big city it was a nightmare. I was in a bad area but I could not walk to the bus without being asked if I was "working" and then would follow me in their car for a while, some wouldn't go away until I'd go into a store or building - even when I was pregnant AND still happened when I had my newborn with me. WTF. someone trying to get me into their car. Following me home to my apartment so I'd go knock on my landlord's door instead of risking opening mine and them coming up behind me to push me in. I was flashed once, his penis... that was lovely. 
I became reclusive during this time and stopped leaving my house, for that and other reasons. 

And seriously, I'm not a pretty girl. I'm ok, average, a little chunky. I don't dress like a hooker. Though I did get told to "put your t*ts away you f-ing *****" once time. I was in a winter jacket, like Canada winter jacket and I checked, nothing had escaped so IDK.

Cat calling, harassment and dangerous behavior happens. Most men are not this way luckily and would be equally as horrified seeing it as I was but it happens.


----------



## Blondilocks

All of this arguing over a radio show where a woman complains she isn't getting as many compliments as she feels she's entitled to and is blaming it on feminism. Hey, maybe she's ugly.


----------



## musicftw07

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Likewise, the most common case is for a woman to file a harassment suit against a man.
> 
> A man filing a sexual harassment suit against another man is a statical outlier compared to the norm. So you saying that "A man could file a sexual harassment suit against you too" is a very lame argument, as it does not represent statistical reality at all.
> 
> Possible? Yes.
> 
> Likely? Not even close.
> 
> I do not deny that the most common case is for a man to harass a woman. That is a solid fact.
> 
> Are you arguing that women do not file the overwhelming majority of all harassment cases? Because if they do (which they do), then why even say a man might file a bogus claim on me in the first place?
> 
> I have never been sexually harassed by a man at work.
> 
> I have been sexually harassed by a woman three times.
> 
> By the way, that chart indicates that men file suits only 16% of the time, and that over 50% of all suits are dismissed with "no reasonable cause".
> 
> Sure seems to indicate that women file the vast majority of sexual harassment suits, and that over half of them are bogus.
> 
> 
> 
> A dismissal of a claim or suit doesn't automatically mean it was bogus. Most harassment takes place behind closed doors between just two people. In the absence of audio or video evidence, or corroborating witness testimony, it can be impossible to prove. Impossible to prove doesn't mean it didn't happen. And therein lies the most challenging aspect of this whole topic. From a woman's point of view, she may feel subject to harassment at any time with no recourse. From a man's point of view, he will often feel women are overreacting or misunderstanding. Without actually being a fly on the wall in the room at the time, it's impossible to know, so we tend to fall back on our own feelings and experiences, which may or may not be representative of society as a whole, and may or may not bear any similarity to a particular case at hand.
Click to expand...

I will admit it's reasonable to assume that not all of the dismissed claims could be considered completely "bogus". However, we have no way of knowing what percentage that might be, and any guess would be purely speculative. All I can do is look at the data I was provided, which indicates over 50% of all cases are closed with no reasonable cause.

That statistic doesn't instill a sense of confidence that women actually file sexual harassment suits appropriately. 

Which I think does themselves a disservice. When you cry wolf too many times, no one is going to believe you when a wolf is actually feasting on your sheep.

And I don't want a wolf eating all the sheep, for lamb is tasty and the world would be a poorer place without it. ?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Blondilocks said:


> All of this arguing over a radio show where a woman complains she isn't getting as many compliments as she feels she's entitled to and is blaming it on feminism. Hey, maybe she's ugly.


yeah, and fat and smells bad, too.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

You can't prove a he said/she said. The complainant needs proof and documentation. That's why claims are dismissed. 

That's the problem with the guys saying they know someone who said the colour on her dress was nice and immediately got hit with a harassment claim. 

The fears people have are extremist fear tactic. Using "feminism!!!" Like politicians use "terrorism!!" 

It's become just a buzzword to rally certain groups of men into fear and blame without any real facts behind it.


----------



## musicftw07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> You can't prove a he said/she said. The complainant needs proof and documentation. That's why claims are dismissed.
> 
> That's the problem with the guys saying they know someone who said the colour on her dress was nice and immediately got hit with a harassment claim.
> 
> The fears people have are extremist fear tactic. Using "feminism!!!" Like politicians use "terrorism!!"
> 
> It's become just a buzzword to rally certain groups of men into fear and blame without any real facts behind it.


Are you asserting that all of the dismissed claims are still valid?

Also, you'll notice that I haven't posted the word "feminism" once in this thread. I'm not using buzzwords at all. I know some very compassionate and tolerant feminists (like my girlfriend), and I know some very man-hating and intolerant feminists. I don't paint them all with either brush.

The chart that Ele provided seems like a decent place to start for facts.

Do you have other sources of information that contain hard data we can analyze?


----------



## Mr. Nail

Well I looked it up on the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Website. 
This is what harassment is:
"Harassment is unwelcome conduct" 
you may say that I am taking a broad view of the definition but there are multiple places on this page that say, " including, but not limited to," . Based on that verbiage you should be interpreting broadly.
There really is no limit to what harassment could be defined as. But there is a legal limit to what is "unlawful Harassment" "To be unlawful, the conduct must create a work environment that would be intimidating, hostile, or offensive to reasonable people." It would pay to note that the conduct has to cause this environment, As many job environments are inherently reasonably offensive.

Now I have to go wash my brain.


----------



## growing_weary

Blondilocks said:


> All of this arguing over a radio show where a woman complains she isn't getting as many compliments as she feels she's entitled to and is blaming it on feminism. Hey, maybe she's ugly.


Wait, really? This is what this thread is about? Sigh. I can't even. 

I'm glad it's not about a guy saying that feminism ruined his relationship or something. Makes me feel much better about this topic.


----------



## Mr. Nail

EleGirl said:


> How many women have sexually harassed you at work?


 One
Interestingly I was in the process of investigating a legitimate harassment claim by her. 
See how pervasive this idea that men can not get unwelcome behavior is.


----------



## naiveonedave

so in rough numbers, the EEOC gets about 5000 cases per year filed by women (I am not sure how many go to a companies HR and stop there?). There are about 100,000,000 males working in the US (round number, not going to look it up). So annually you have about 5000/100,000,000 chance of hitting the EEOC, ~1 in 20,000 men per year. Much lower than I expected, but still curious how many end at the company HR....

Given what constitutes a crime is a very low bar, but as many women have said on this thread, it is he said/she said most of the time. It is just a bad space, no justice for those who were harassed in most cases (likely, imo) and the rules are so vague, how do you avoid accidentally violating or getting wrongly accused?


----------



## Dannip

A company I worked at had a sexual harassment phone number to call. 

So I called. I hadn't been harassed yet and thought that's what the number was for. >


----------



## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> One
> Interestingly I was in the process of investigating a legitimate harassment claim by her.
> See how pervasive this idea that men can not get unwelcome behavior is.


The is not a pervasive idea that men cannot get unwelcome behavior, or harassment. The fact that it happens has been brought up many times on this thread.

However, it seems that men get this type of harassment far less than women do.

What happened about her unwelcome behavior? Did you let it slide? Did you tell her to stop? Did you report her?


----------



## Yag-Kosha

I wonder, is receiving male advice considered harassment? According to some, apparently it is - 'Mansplaining' hotline opens for business in Sweden - CNN.com

You learn new things every day.


----------



## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> so in rough numbers, the EEOC gets about 5000 cases per year filed by women (I am not sure how many go to a companies HR and stop there?). There are about 100,000,000 males working in the US (round number, not going to look it up). So annually you have about 5000/100,000,000 chance of hitting the EEOC, ~1 in 20,000 men per year. Much lower than I expected, but still curious how many end at the company HR....
> 
> Given what constitutes a crime is a very low bar, but as many women have said on this thread, it is he said/she said most of the time. It is just a bad space, no justice for those who were harassed in most cases (likely, imo) and the rules are so vague, how do you avoid accidentally violating or getting wrongly accused?


I found this......................

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO: First, consider what “sexual harassment” is. Generally, it is either (a) unwelcome sexual advances by one person to another, or (b) the repeated use of sexually suggestive words or images. Notice the four critical components:




Unwelcome
Sexual
Advances
Graphic Words and Images

Second, eliminate or minimize these four components, by following the twenty-one common-sense safeguards relating to them, and you’ll eliminate or minimize your chances of being the target of sexual harassment allegations:

1. Jokes, stories and images that have anything to do with sex acts or body parts are to be avoided, to the extent possible.

2. Assume that every “advance” you make – perhaps other than a single, polite telephone call to a person’s home – is unwelcome.

3. If public bantering is common, seek public confirmation that no one is offended. There’s nothing wrong with once in a while asking “Is anyone offended by these jokes?”

4. Always keep in mind that perceptions differ, markedly:
What you consider funny, others may consider degrading.
What you consider casual, others may consider intrusive.
What you consider playful, others may consider overbearing.
What you consider “plain talk,” others may consider gutter language.
What you consider “tough,” others may consider hostile.​
5. Err on the side of caution and politeness: a simple rule to follow is to pretend your grandmother is in the room.

6. It is wise to hold any one-on-one meetings with the opposite gender in rooms with open doors, or glass walls, or otherwise open or accessible to others.

7. Never, ever use company email to transmit amorous, sexual or intimate information.

8. Any meeting in which a member of the opposite gender will be reprimanded, warned or terminated would best be attended by another member of that other gender.

9. If the topic of a meeting includes discussion of sexual matters – such as a report of sexual harassment, or an employee’s upcoming need for time off for certain surgeries – it is best to have both genders present in the room.

10. Bear in mind that sexual harassment can be between the same gender, and relate to sexual identity, and orientation.

11. It’s a good idea to review your company’s rules and policies regarding both dating of colleagues, and reporting of harassment. You may just find that something you’re doing or contemplating could result in your being fired. These can usually be found in employee handbooks and company codes of conduct.

12. To some people, the repeated giving of gifts can be interpreted as advances.

13. Don’t date colleagues. But if you really want to, make a request only once…if you don’t get a “yes” the first time you ask, don’t ask again; second and third requests could be considered harassing.

14. Never date subordinates. The law says that a request for a date by a boss to a subordinate, by the power-dynamic of the very relation, is by definition presumably harassing. If you want to date a subordinate, or your boss, consider first changing departments or employers.

15. After alcohol consumption, people are less inhibited, and after engaging in alcohol-induced intimacy may suffer great remorse. Indeed, some argue that if you know a person has imbibed, you must presume there is no “voluntary” agreement to engage. Likewise, consumption of alcohol may impair a person’s ability to judge voluntary from involuntary conduct. In general, limit social contact with one colleague of the opposite gender if alcohol is present. Certainly avoid all intimate contact with a colleague after imbibing alcohol.

16. If you do date colleagues, try to socialize in group settings, or at least with another couple, at least in the beginning, to attest (if necessary) that the attraction and relation were mutual and consenting, not one-sided and coercive.

17. If you do date colleagues, any apparently “welcome” response to an “advance” you make should be “checked” with language such as “Are you sure you would like to do that?”

18. If you date colleagues, bear in mind that many harassment complaints take place when (a) one party refuses to leave his or her spouse, or (b) when one party seeks to end the relation. If either dynamic is present, consider gathering evidence of the consensuality of the relation, including time spent together in the presence of others.


----------



## Yag-Kosha

EleGirl said:


> What you consider funny, others may consider degrading.
> What you consider playful, others may consider overbearing.
> What you consider “tough,” others may consider hostile.


I can completely resonate with these. I have a very dark sense of humor and am somewhat of a cynic. So I often try to guard what I say with varying degrees of success if working or meeting new people. 

But that's one crazy long list.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dannip said:


> A company I worked at had a sexual harassment phone number to call.
> 
> So I called. I hadn't been harassed yet and thought that's what the number was for.


Hello?

Yes, harassment hotline, how can I help you?

Oh yes, I'm calling to be harassed.

Um sir, that's not what this line is for.

Oh dang.

But might as well make the best of the call anyway....what are you wearing?


----------



## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> A guy who works for me is recently divorced and tearing up the dating market wrote me saying he needed to run to the drug store so he was going to be a little late I said "get you Viagra and I'll see you when you get in". I know he laughed when he read that, same guy I'll ask if he wants to grab a drink after work, I'm confident I'm not going to end up in HR. No chance I break balls like that with a woman at the office or ask if she wants to grab a beer, I'm an executive manager so it probably is hurting women to be honest. Women come to my office, door open, and I do everything by the HR handbook.


If a women employee wrote you that she "needed to run to the drug store so he was going to be a little late", would you write her back telling her "I'll see you when you get in"? Or do you only give male employees that kind of leeway?

I don't know what industry you work in or how many people work under you, but would you feel comfortable writing that sort of remark about the Viagra, or other sexual type comment, to every single man who works for you?

So it hurts women who work under you that you cannot make sexually charged comments to them? And it hurts them because you socialize with the men but cannot find ways to socialize with your employees that include the women... such having a group of males and females from the office go out for drinks and dinner?

When you say that it probably hurts the women, I take that to mean that you do not promote people based on their job performance but more based on their social interactions with you.


----------



## RandomDude

Mr. Nail said:


> *"Harassment is unwelcome conduct" *


Keyword: Unwelcome

No need for a bible!


----------



## Mr. Nail

EleGirl said:


> The is not a pervasive idea that men cannot get unwelcome behavior, or harassment. The fact that it happens has been brought up many times on this thread.
> 
> However, it seems that men get this type of harassment far less than women do.
> 
> What happened about her unwelcome behavior? Did you let it slide? Did you tell her to stop? Did you report her?


I told her to stop she was very offended.


----------



## Mr. Nail

EleGirl said:


> If a women employee wrote you that she "needed to run to the drug store so he was going to be a little late", would you write her back telling her "I'll see you when you get in"? Or do you only give male employees that kind of leeway?


Actually, you don't ask for specifics and do offer them the day off. I'm sure glad I don't supervise anyone anymore.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

knobcreek said:


> A guy who works for me is recently divorced and tearing up the dating market wrote me saying he needed to run to the drug store so he was going to be a little late I said "get you Viagra and I'll see you when you get in". I know he laughed when he read that, same guy I'll ask if he wants to grab a drink after work, I'm confident I'm not going to end up in HR. No chance I break balls like that with a woman at the office or ask if she wants to grab a beer, I'm an executive manager so it probably is hurting women to be honest. Women come to my office, door open, and I do everything by the HR handbook.


This is an interesting anecdote. 

Regarding the Viagra crack. Is this really just a male vs. female thing? You say you know this guy well enough to know his lifestyle, and you obviously have some appreciation for it. Your bro-mance has started. The question is would you make that same crack with another man you work with that you don't otherwise admire for his off-duty behavior? Probably not. If you were this tight with a woman beyond the workplace, you might feel free enough to make a slightly off color crack with her as well. I see a potential HR risk here, but not sexually oriented, but rather blanket favoritism based on out of the workplace association. If your other subordinates see you being this chummy with someone, they may perceive favoritism and have a problem on those grounds. 

I can see that you might think this will necessarily hurt women under your hierarchy. You feel like you can’t get as chummy with them as you can with the fellas. But if that chummy-ness is in any way part of the basis for recognizing and rewarding subordinates, then you’ve already failed, regardless of gender. This is easily resolved by maintaining professional relationships with all subordinates, male or female, hot or not. This doesn’t mean you can’t be friendly, warm and open; it just means being sensitive to the environment you create and the perceptions it fosters. Professionalism and openness are not mutually exclusive. Nor is genuine warmth and friendship likely to be misinterpreted as unwanted sexual advances. I’ve never changed how friendly I am with my female colleagues, and none of them have ever thought I was hitting on them. 

I say this as a former military officer who was once in command of a squadron of 450 airmen, NCOs and Junior Officers during a time when sexual harassment and sexual assault in the military were getting massive coverage and exposure, and when our government was cracking down hard in an effort to get this under control. There was this great fear that women would take advantage of the environment and the careers of good men would be ruined in the process. Funny thing, though, I had no problem creating an environment where all my subordinates knew they were rated on their contribution to the mission and their demonstrated potential for advancement, period. And this was in a traditionally very male dominated field. Most of the younger generation fell into line pretty easily, and even the crusty old-school NCO’s got with the program without incident. Guys who were used to crude locker room talk in the maintenance shop all their lives adapted and, more importantly, came to appreciate the unique contributions of the women in their unit.

I too, always had the door open for one-on-one meetings with women. That’s just common sense, not something to be derided. I would do the same for men—lest I give the impression we’re in there talking about something we think we should keep hidden, which would also have a corrosive effect on relations in the workplace. The only time the door closed was if we were discussing something sensitive like a private personnel issue, and then the discussion was given the professionalism and gravity it deserved. 

Re: “I always follow the HR handbook”
Was the Viagra crack perfectly in line with the HR handbook? The impression I get is that you’re motivated to follow policy vis-à-vis women, but like the freedom to dance around the lines with men. So, again, I see why you may think the environment has the potential to hurt women—but it’s possible that it’s not the environment or the policy, but rather your interpretation of it.

In the interest of full disclosure, I will admit that I have, more than once, been accused of looking at the world through rose colored glasses, and my personal experience here has been overwhelmingly positive. I have heard the horror stories of honest, well intentioned men being taken to task for innocent acts—but my suspicion is that they are greatly exaggerated both in frequency and severity—and that they don’t happen to men who have established reputations for unshakeable integrity in the first place. I know that if anybody ever made an accusation against me, it would get laughed out of existence, not just by my bros, but also by all the women who know me.


----------



## Dannip

At a company where I was a manager, when single, I asked a single lady who did not work for me out to dinner, she said no. 

Funny, as I thought we got on well. I said OK thanks and never spoke with her again other than the usual "hi". 

Found out later she was actually interested in me but just playing coy and a bit hard to get and wanted me to keep asking. 

Her loss.

Thinking about it, if I pursued her I'd be setting myself up. She'd have full control of the outcome. Date, marriage, children, or straight up harassment or even lovers quarrel and harassment. Nice package. 

**** that. **** all that PC Bull****. Cant even live with integrity anymore????

What a screwed up world.


----------



## EleGirl

Dannip said:


> At a company where I was a manager, when single, I asked a single lady who did not work for me out to dinner, she said no.
> 
> Funny, as I thought we got on well. I said OK thanks and never spoke with her again other than the usual "hi".
> 
> Found out later she was actually interested in me but just playing coy and a bit hard to get and wanted me to keep asking.
> 
> Her loss.
> 
> Thinking about it, if I pursued her I'd be setting myself up. She'd have full control of the outcome. Date, marriage, children, or straight up harassment or even lovers quarrel and harassment. Nice package.
> 
> **** that. **** all that PC Bull****. Cant even live with integrity anymore????
> 
> What a screwed up world.


On a personal level, if one of my sons told me the above about a woman they had asked out, my advice to him would be that he was lucky because he found out before wasting any time on her that she's a game player. For an adult woman to say no because she's acting coy and wanting you to chase her is ridiculous. Sounds like junior high school.

My take is that this is a woman who expects a man to read her mind. She is not direct and willing to communicate clearly.

So maybe, just maybe, you dogged a bullet.


----------



## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> If a women employee wrote you that she "needed to run to the drug store so she was going to be a little late", would you write her back telling her "I'll see you when you get in"? Or do you only give male employees that kind of leeway?
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you don't ask for specifics and do offer them the day off. I'm sure glad I don't supervise anyone anymore.
Click to expand...

This is not about offering a day off, but allowing an excused late start of the work day.

When I was supervising employees, as long as they were not missing something like an important meeting with a customer, I would allow any employee to come in a bit late if they had to do some important personal chore in the morning. The staff seldom did ask for this and as long as they made up their hours or had PT hours banked there was no issue with it.


I don't see why the gender of the person matters at all.

Now, in a firm where employees have to be there to meet clients, or work on an assembly line that would be stopped if they were late such leeway is probably harder to allow. But in an engineering firm it was not a problem at all most of the time.


----------



## Mr. Nail

What I was trying to point out, was that offering leeway in the case of a medical situation IS handled differently between male and female employees, but not in the direction your question implied. Male supervisors are generally so embarrassed by the thought of any specifically female medical anything that they have tended to give time off First just to avoid having to ask the question, or hear the answer. Now in some work environments that may no longer the case, but my experience has been that women are given more leeway on anything that might be medical. And I was the manager making the decision.

In order to put it into perspective I'll include a bit more about sick excuse handling in the small manufacturing business (20 ish employee). Generally if someone felt sick enough to dare call in sick we encouraged them to stay home and not share the joy with the rest of the crew. if there was a pattern of Monday sickness we looked into substance abuse problems, If there was a pattern of Friday absence, we just waited until hunting season was over. We did have a few employees who were critical. Usually if they were sick the boss (me) covered for them as well as possible. 

But the thread jack in question is really about being late. Our schedule was flexible enough that we just expected employees to make up late time. We appreciated (verbally) employees who would inform of us when an unexpected late or absence was expected. On the other end of the spectrum We did have a 3 day no show no call policy. After 3 days we made the reasonable assumption that the employee had quit and was too upset to talk to us about it.


----------



## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> What I was trying to point out, was that offering leeway in the case of a medical situation IS handled differently between male and female employees, but not in the direction your question implied. Male supervisors are generally so embarrassed by the thought of any specifically female medical anything that they have tended to give time off First just to avoid having to ask the question, or hear the answer. Now in some work environments that may no longer the case, but my experience has been that women are given more leeway on anything that might be medical. And I was the manager making the decision.


If you handled male and female medical situations differently, that’s your problem because there is zero reason to do this. If you are still supervising people, you really need to work on this.

Consider that when women need to run the pharmacy, or have some other health issue, it’s not always about female problems. It’s far more likely that the woman has something that a man could have as well. Women have things like allergies, sinus infections, the flue, and lots of other health issues just like men do. So, your statement is very odd, as though male supervisors think women only come down with embarrassing female health problems. Further, why would it matter whether a woman has of female health problem… say a cyst on her ovary? Why would that be too embarrassing to know? 

But, as an employer and/or supervisor, you cannot request that an employee discloses information about any health conditions that arise during employment. Employees might choose to volunteer information, and if they do then the employer is required to make reasonable adjustments to support the employee in their work.


Mr. Nail said:


> In order to put it into perspective I'll include a bit more about sick excuse handling in the small manufacturing business (20 ish employee). Generally if someone felt sick enough to dare call in sick we encouraged them to stay home and not share the joy with the rest of the crew. if there was a pattern of Monday sickness we looked into substance abuse problems, If there was a pattern of Friday absence, we just waited until hunting season was over. We did have a few employees who were critical. Usually if they were sick the boss (me) covered for them as well as possible.
> 
> But the thread jack in question is really about being late. Our schedule was flexible enough that we just expected employees to make up late time. We appreciated (verbally) employees who would inform of us when an unexpected late or absence was expected. On the other end of the spectrum We did have a 3 day no show no call policy. After 3 days we made the reasonable assumption that the employee had quit and was too upset to talk to us about it.


Makes sense.


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## Mr. Nail

Buddy400 said:


> It's important that . . . people understand how the world *really* works, not how we wish it would work in a more perfect world.


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## Blondilocks

@EllisRedding, you need to get yourself back here and manage your thread. It's been jacked beyond all recognition.


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## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> I told her to stop she was very offended.


That sounds about normal... same reaction a lot of guys in that sort of circumstance.


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## EllisRedding

Blondilocks said:


> @EllisRedding, you need to get yourself back here and manage your thread. It's been jacked beyond all recognition.


Lol, first time logging in since I posted this thread :grin2:

I just skimmed through quickly. The only thing I will add to, there were some posts about comments at work. For better or worse, I am more willing to have a conversation on a personal level with a male vs a female. One example, we dress business casual at work (unless a client is visiting). If one of the males one day decided to show up in a suit, I would make a comment (nothing major, put probably something like "Looking sharp" or to that effect). If a female came in dressed up, I wouldn't make any comment regarding. For me it has nothing to do with any sort of sexual innuendo (i.e. in the rare occasion I would compliment a female who is not my wife, it is not b/c I am trying to get into their pants). It is what it is, it is just not worth taking any sort of risk by putting myself or my firm in jeopardy. Heck, even now outside of the workplace you need to be careful with personal comments/conversations given thanks to social media this actually impacting someones business / employment.

That being said, anyone who gets upset because a stranger doesn't compliment them ... that is more a reflection on the person themselves and not the stranger ...

On the topic of feminism, there seem to be so many variants/waves that I don't think it is helpful to lump in all feminists into one bucket. usually, the more radical/outspoken are the ones who will get the most attention, even if they don't speak for the majority (this is common across many groups, not specific to feminism).


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## TX-SC

Dannip said:


> At a company where I was a manager, when single, I asked a single lady who did not work for me out to dinner, she said no.
> 
> Funny, as I thought we got on well. I said OK thanks and never spoke with her again other than the usual "hi".
> 
> Found out later she was actually interested in me but just playing coy and a bit hard to get and wanted me to keep asking.
> 
> Her loss.
> 
> Thinking about it, if I pursued her I'd be setting myself up. She'd have full control of the outcome. Date, marriage, children, or straight up harassment or even lovers quarrel and harassment. Nice package.
> 
> **** that. **** all that PC Bull****. Cant even live with integrity anymore????
> 
> What a screwed up world.


Generally speaking, I would refrain from dating Anyone I work with, even indirectly. It's just asking for trouble. 

As the owner of my company, I don't have a policy on dating people you work with, but if I see tension between two employees causing an issue, either they better work it out or somebody will be moving on to new things.


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## uhtred

I agree - if she wanted a date, then it is her loss. In a work environment, it is not reasonable to expect someone to pursue you beyond a first polite invite.





Dannip said:


> At a company where I was a manager, when single, I asked a single lady who did not work for me out to dinner, she said no.
> 
> Funny, as I thought we got on well. I said OK thanks and never spoke with her again other than the usual "hi".
> 
> Found out later she was actually interested in me but just playing coy and a bit hard to get and wanted me to keep asking.
> 
> Her loss.
> 
> Thinking about it, if I pursued her I'd be setting myself up. She'd have full control of the outcome. Date, marriage, children, or straight up harassment or even lovers quarrel and harassment. Nice package.
> 
> **** that. **** all that PC Bull****. Cant even live with integrity anymore????
> 
> What a screwed up world.


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## uhtred

I've been managing a small group that contains both men and women for at least ten years now and have never had any problems. It easy to be friendly while not steering conversations to sexual things. I've been good friends with some of the women - and in one case there was clearly some attraction there, but it was never made explicit. 

I go to lunch with women. Socialize with women. Go on business trips with women. I just follow a few guidelines:

1) however much fun sex is as a topic normally, just avoid discussing it at work. I don't discuss it with men or women. 

2) Generally I try to invite several people to go to lunch. If it turns out only a single woman shows up, that is fine, but it doesn't look like I was trying to ask her on a date. There is a big difference between "several of us are going out to lunch, want to join?" and "would you like to go to lunch". 

3) Gender is not discussed because its not relevant to work. Performance reviews, etc never refer to gender, only to what the person has done.

To me the rules for socializing at work are very different from those for general life. At work there is a power structure that has the potential for abuse. Also at work you are supposed to *work* - that's what you are being paid to do.


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## Thor

Given the recent events in the news re sexual harassment and allegations which can't be reasonably proven but which are ending careers, has anyone changed their position on whether they are willing to have non-business conversations with coworkers or even be alone with coworkers at meals etc?

I am not surprised one little bit at how things are going right now. The higher the stakes the dirtier the game is played, which means we're going to see the rich and the powerful accused left and right for quite a while now. Some will be true accusations, some will be lies, and many careers will be destroyed either way. Even in cases of personal vendettas without large amounts of money or power involved there are going to be unfounded accusations.

When the accusations are true, it is a good thing for the perp to be outed.

Yet I think there is also a lot of opportunity for miscarriage of justice due to changed perceptions after the fact, alcohol or drug impaired decisions leading to later regrets, honest misunderstandings, thin skins, and dramatically changed social norms.


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