# After months of therapy still considering separation



## Keenwa

Here's our situation. Married 14 years, together 16, with 2 kids. He works, I work. I "lost it" last spring, I had a moment in a workshop I was doing where everything came crashing down and where I hadn't cried or really felt much emotion at all in the past 3-4 years, I guess some might call it a "breakdown". In this workshop someone gave me a gift, it was a small gift, but it was something that I really liked and this triggered me. I realized that I couldn't remember the last time someone gave me something that was important to me, that someone had taken the time to think about what I needed. I realized that I'd been living in this world of giving and giving and supporting but never receiving. I felt like I was carrying the whole world on my shoulders, and I felt like my husband was one more burden to carry. I felt like i was done, I felt like I was suffocating and if I didn't get out, I was going to die. 


I realized that I felt completely trapped in my marriage and my life. I was exhausted. My husband had been off of work for 2 years and while I was happy to see him take a break at first, going into the 2nd year I began to get frustrated that he was not doing anything to support our family, and left the burden on me completely. He was not motivated to look for work or even think outside of the box at possibilities, ie looking in other cities for work etc. I had told him I was willing to relocate and start up a new business in a new city, but he wouldn't even consider it. I mentioned to him that sometimes when we are in a rut, we need to physically move or change our patterns to see things from a new perspective, but he was not interested in any change at all. I wanted desperately to get out. I got more and more frustrated. Finally I told him I wanted to separate. It hit him like a tonne of bricks. He had no idea he says. We had had sex maybe 3 times in the last 2 years, and usually because I felt guilty, and would give in or initiate thinking maybe it would make things better. But generally, he'd go to bed stating he was tired, leave me to put the kids to bed, and I'd stay up late avoiding him, out of anger that I'd had to put the kids to bed on my own. That's how we lived the last 3-4 years I'd say. 

He asked me to go for therapy with him. I told him I'd only go if he found himself a therapist so he could work on himself as well. So we went to one session. We agreed to give ourselves a year. Since then I've been working with a therapist and he with his, and we now have couples sessions every 2 weeks as well. I don't feel like we are getting anywhere fast. The therapy has really helped to teach us to communicate better, basically I think most things have been said to each other and we are communicating honestly now. Which is really great. His relationship with our kids has greatly improved now that he is present in the room with them, not just physically, but actually present most of the time. THough I am still the one who does all the parenting, in terms of teaching our kids values, and ethics etc. He "supports" whatever I say. 

So here's where I am at. I feel now like I have a really great helper in my husband. He is trying very hard, supportive of everything I do, but he is not a partner. I feel like I have a really great employee. What I want is a partner. He seems confused when I tell him this. I wish he'd step up to the plate, form an opinion about something, not just help all the time. I wish he'd take the initiative sometimes. So I'm back to where I was last spring, feeling like we are walking on divergent paths. We just don't seem to get each other at all. So I feel like we are heading towards separation... because my heart doesn't feel anything when I am around him. I care for him as a person and a friend, but not as a partner and a husband/lover. 
:scratchhead:


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## skadoosh

Hi Keenwa,

After 14 years of you doing the hard work he's now pulling his weight a bit by following your lead - maybe he just doesn't know how to be a partner and step up to the plate.

Could you live with that?


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## rabbislatkin

That's great that your communication has improved and that your husband has become a better husband and father. You are still frustrated that he is not a "partner." I think this is something important to explore in therapy with him, to describe what you are looking for in him that you need and why it is so important to you. Ask yourself what bothers you so much about the fact that he is still not providing this for you even though he has made drastic improvements in other areas. What are you doing together to foster your love? I wouldn't give up so quick as he has showed he can change. Be patient and try to articulate your needs in a loving and compassionate way and see if he begins to get it.


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## Fordsvt

It seems like your making some progress here. Keep going and see what happens. I'm having the same thing with my wife. Says she will always love me but not as a lover anymore. We are seeing a MC too. She says she doesn't know how to fix it. It's tough I know. Hang in there...


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## Keenwa

rabbislatkin said:


> That's great that your communication has improved and that your husband has become a better husband and father. You are still frustrated that he is not a "partner." I think this is something important to explore in therapy with him, to describe what you are looking for in him that you need and why it is so important to you. Ask yourself what bothers you so much about the fact that he is still not providing this for you even though he has made drastic improvements in other areas. What are you doing together to foster your love? I wouldn't give up so quick as he has showed he can change. Be patient and try to articulate your needs in a loving and compassionate way and see if he begins to get it.


We have explored it, and that's where the frustration is, maybe my lack of patience but frankly after so long, it's hard to have patience. I have to keep reminding myself that he had "no idea" until a few months ago and he's trying to catch up. He acknowledges that he is afraid to make decisions because he fears they will be the wrong ones and has an "issue" with stepping up and having a backbone, and/or an opinion about everything so he defers to me, which is frankly , exhausting. But I also acknowledge that for years I played that role and thought it was the only way it would work, since he never stepped up, never planned dates, never had his own opinion, never took the initiative on anything whatsoever. So, I stepped into that, playing father and mother and letting him take a back seat. So I am to blame too here. I get that. Now that I'm stepping back, he doesn't know how to step in. 

To foster our love, well we are writing appreciations to each other every day, that is helping a little bit. I have told him repeatedly that what would mean something to me would be if he would plan a date, or something for us, where I didn't have to organize everything. But he has yet to do it, stating he doesn't know why he doesn't do it. On my side I have begun dressing more femininely etc. 

One of the other big issues for me which plays into the fact that i don't feel he's a partner is that though he is quite a social person and I am the introvert, he relies completely on my friends and colleagues for his social interaction. He doesn't have friends. He never goes out with his buddies, or invites them over. Whenever we socialize it's with my colleagues and friends. That has gotten tedious for me, and though I ask him to do this he is not doing it. 

I find it frustrating to get into bed with a man that I don't want to be beside, and to be completely honest would prefer to have my own room and my own space. Then of course I feel guilty for not trying hard enough, but wondering how you can fall back in love with someone when you have gone so far down the road of resentment and anger.


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## Keenwa

skadoosh said:


> Hi Keenwa,
> 
> After 14 years of you doing the hard work he's now pulling his weight a bit by following your lead - maybe he just doesn't know how to be a partner and step up to the plate.
> 
> Could you live with that?


Honestly, I wonder why I would live in a marriage like this. We can be happy people, and good parents, and not live together. We can then perhaps find people who suit our personalities where we are not trying so hard to be the person that the other needs us to be.


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## skadoosh

Your story sounds so much like mine although I have some different issues with my husband. I too was doing everything with the kids, house, etc waiting for years for my husband to help me, and he didn't until very recently, but by now I am just used to doing everything myself and have totally lost respect and love for him.

I feel I shouldn't have had to tell him to do those things. And I feel it doesn't count as credit to him now that he is paying attention. Because it just took me years of asking for help, then giving up asking, and then saying I want a separation for him to realise. You shouldn't have to be told to do this stuff.

I'm sorry I don't have anything positive to say. In my case I can't see my marriage coming back from this.

But hopefully I see him becoming a better parent because I won't be there for him to rely on. But one concern I have is that I am so used to doing everything for the kids that I will have to get used to giving up the reins for a while. I see that being a challenge for me.

From your post I can tell you have put in a lot of effort to make this work. Can I ask why are you trying so hard to save your marriage? You say you resent and are angry at your H. Is it for the kids?


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## Keenwa

skadoosh said:


> From your post I can tell you have put in a lot of effort to make this work. Can I ask why are you trying so hard to save your marriage? You say you resent and are angry at your H. Is it for the kids?


THat is a very good question. My therapist asked me the same, because I was telling her I felt ambivalent. When she asked me to really connect with how I feel, I was not ambivalent, I was checked out. My mind keeps bringing me back to "maybe I didn't try hard enough"... it's my perfectionist attitude I guess of always feeling like I should give it my best shot, but honestly sometimes you just have to give yourself permission to let go. Part of it for me is not fully trusting how I feel and/or giving myself to feel what I feel. From the outside, people think my H is wonderful, and maybe I'm afraid of being judged for leaving such a "great man. "

I also feel like I am abandoning him and I need to get over the fact that it's not my job to take care of him, though I feel I have been doing so for a long time. He's not my child, he's my husband. He's a grown person like me. 

I guess my other worry is dealing with the sadness my children will experience, while I know long term it will be better for them, I guess because I am feeling so exhausted and worn out, I wonder if I have the energy to deal with it. But I will likely have more energy once I get out of this.


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## skadoosh

Keenwa said:


> THat is a very good question. My therapist asked me the same, because I was telling her I felt ambivalent. When she asked me to really connect with how I feel, I was not ambivalent, I was checked out. My mind keeps bringing me back to "maybe I didn't try hard enough"... it's my perfectionist attitude I guess of always feeling like I should give it my best shot, but honestly sometimes you just have to give yourself permission to let go. Part of it for me is not fully trusting how I feel and/or giving myself to feel what I feel. From the outside, people think my H is wonderful, and maybe I'm afraid of being judged for leaving such a "great man. "
> 
> I also feel like I am abandoning him and I need to get over the fact that it's not my job to take care of him, though I feel I have been doing so for a long time. He's not my child, he's my husband. He's a grown person like me.
> 
> I guess my other worry is dealing with the sadness my children will experience, while I know long term it will be better for them, I guess because I am feeling so exhausted and worn out, I wonder if I have the energy to deal with it. But I will likely have more energy once I get out of this.


Wow - freakishly similar to me. These are the exact same concerns I have. I am about 6 months behind you - just starting therapy - but feel at this point therapy would only be useful for changing my mind because I feel nothing can fix this.

The dealbreaker for me is that I don't love him anymore and because of our history I have lost respect him. It didn't disappear overnight - it was ebbed away little by little over 9 and 1/2 years. And following the math it will take the same amount of time to restore. Only if he puts in the hard work. But am I willing to wait that long to see if that happens? Don't know yet.

I think it's not working for you because he still doesn't get it. Its not just physically hard work raising a family but emotionally. Deciding what schools, activities, friends, values your children should be raised with is still hard work. It is not ok for him to say he's happy with whatever you decide because that is still being lazy. I feel you - I've been there. 

I hope this is helping you and I'm not thread-jacking. Just say if I am!


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## Keenwa

nope you're not thread jacking. It's nice to talk to people in the same situation to get some perspective. I feel the same way. Actually as pathetic as it is I remember hearing probably 20 years ago a Dr. Phil episode where he said that it is very hard to restore a marriage when the woman has decided to leave, because it is years of discontentment, whereas usually when the man decides to leave it is more recent and can sometimes be turned around. 

I agree that it was ebbed away over the years, it's been 14 years for me. It accumulates over the years but you remember... my H also never apologizes. I remember telling him how much it hurt when my sister came out for my birthday and he called me at 5:30 pm to ask me "what's going on for dinner"... he had planned nothing hadn't even thought about it, not even to make dinner that night. Got home, made dinner, mad as hell. He offered me a couple of years ago a trip to NYC for my birthday, but then never followed through planning the trip, he expected me to do it. Last year I got a tv for my birthday. Not quite as bad as a kitchen appliance but pretty close. He used to ask me "what do you want for your birthday", I'd answer "I want you to plan something that doesn't involve me organizing it". The result. Nothing happened. I stopped planning dates for us about 4 years ago, when I'd planned on, booked tix made dinner reservations, for 6pm, he got home at 5:45, so, we missed dinner, got to the 8pm show... just barely. I was so mad. Told him so, he didn't get it. Never said sorry. Anyhow, the list goes on and on as I'm sure it does for you. I have always justified his actions by saying to myself that he tries to love me in the only way he knows how. But now I've decided that this is not enough. Even now through the therapy I have to take the initiative to have our "talks"... he rarely does it. So I have stopped doing it too. I am always the initiator. I'm tired. I am happy to be the leader and grown up for my kids, but not for my husband. 

I can say to you that the good thing about therapy is that I feel much calmer now, not frothing at the mouth feeling like I need to end this NOW! I don't hate him anymore, and can see the good in him once more. 

After just spending a week navigating through problems at my kids' school with teachers, and doing this once again on my own with him asking "how's it going" , I realize I'm really a single mom living in a marriage most of the time. I don't think he will change, I also now don't think I am good for him.


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## squid1035

Keenwa and skadoosh,

I really am on the other side of your issues. I don't think we're as far gone as you, but we're not too far.

We separated last week. Ultimatums were made and I've been given the green light to move in next weekend. But the resentment is still there. I can't expect it will go away soon. I deserve it. But I'm now at the point of not knowing how to proceed forth. Do you know? She's accepted me back, but I feel so very conscience of how my every action and word might set her off. She's very fragile now. One step from "frothing" as you put it, Keenwa.

I've accepted full responsibility and apologized until I hated hearing the phrase so often. How do we get to a good place again? Not necessarily BACK to where we were, because that obviously wasn't as good as I thought. Where do we move towards? Is it possible to renew love that has gone so sour?

I haven't stopped loving my wife at all. Yes, I lost sight of her and allowed other negative thoughts to come between us. But she has expressed to me a lot of the same emotions that you both are talking about. So trust me when I say that I'm really curious to know what you two think.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Keenwa and skadoosh,
> 
> I really am on the other side of your issues. I don't think we're as far gone as you, but we're not too far.
> 
> We separated last week. Ultimatums were made and I've been given the green light to move in next weekend. But the resentment is still there. I can't expect it will go away soon. I deserve it. But I'm now at the point of not knowing how to proceed forth. Do you know? She's accepted me back, but I feel so very conscience of how my every action and word might set her off. She's very fragile now. One step from "frothing" as you put it, Keenwa.
> 
> I've accepted full responsibility and apologized until I hated hearing the phrase so often. How do we get to a good place again? Not necessarily BACK to where we were, because that obviously wasn't as good as I thought. Where do we move towards? Is it possible to renew love that has gone so sour?
> 
> I haven't stopped loving my wife at all. Yes, I lost sight of her and allowed other negative thoughts to come between us. But she has expressed to me a lot of the same emotions that you both are talking about. So trust me when I say that I'm really curious to know what you two think.


Squid. well she's accepted you back that is a huge step. All I can say from my perspective is communicate, communicate, communicate. I am still here in the same house after 6 months, and the thing that really drives me away and makes me angry/sad/lonely is his inability to communicate. He NEVER tells me how he feels, he continually tells me what he thinks, but never how he feels. I guess for each couple the breakdown occurs for different reasons. I am learning to keep my boundaries and not feel responsible for him. Had a bad week last week when he didn't bother to show up for parent/teacher meetings or the kids' recital... too busy at work. That stuff makes me so resentful because I feel like I am the only parent here. So then I resort back to wondering why I live with this guy, if I'm alone anyhow. 

I don't know your story, but if she wanted to separate because you were taking her for granted etc... then I think what's important is to tell her things that you appreciate. Actually our MC told us to send each other appreciations each day, notes, texts, emails whatever. That has been helpful. 

Can you sit down with her and ask her to tell you how she feels? I think if you can get to the root emotion... like is she feeling lonely in the relationship, really try to understand what she is feeling without criticizing or justifying your actions... just listen? But then also keep in mind it takes 2 people to make a relationship work. 

I know that for me, there came a point where I had to decide if I was in or out. Because I had been operating from a place of being physically present in the house but my heart was already down the street... so if you're in, you are in... you can't fix a marriage if your heart and your mind are already moved out.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Can you sit down with her and ask her to tell you how she feels? I think if you can get to the root emotion... like is she feeling lonely in the relationship, really try to understand what she is feeling without criticizing or justifying your actions... just listen? But then also keep in mind it takes 2 people to make a relationship work.
> 
> I know that for me, there came a point where I had to decide if I was in or out. Because I had been operating from a place of being physically present in the house but my heart was already down the street... so if you're in, you are in... you can't fix a marriage if your heart and your mind are already moved out.


I've definitely been all ears and just letting her talk and really air out all of her feelings and pent up emotions. We've had a lot of real heart to heart talks and for her, it's the feelings of being alone in a marriage that make her feel so hurt. Breaks my heart to hear it and know that I brought her so much pain. I just feel awful.

I feel she's, as you say, physically present but her heart's planning to leave. I'm in. Period. I just don't know if her heart is in this relationship anymore. She's expressed that. Very uncertain territory. I should at least some comfort in that she's willing to take me back.

Didn't mean to hijack this thread either. But perspective like yours is very valuable to me and gives me precious insight.


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## confusedinNY

I know how you feel. My wife wants to separate because she wants to be alone and she is unhappy but doesn't give any reasons why. she just tells me that she doesn't love me and wants to be alone but doesn't want a divorce. She has had these feelings for quite some time. She will not go see a MC and even her sister and family don't know what is bothering her. She wont come out and tell anyone what is really deeply bothering her. I think that is making the situation worst.

I have tried many times but to no avail. She just gets mad.

I do a lot for her around house (laundry, bathroom etc.) and take care of the kids and I have always shown her affection and love. I get her flowers when she is not expecting it but I do feel at times I might have taken her for granted. I have always been there for her during all her good and bad times (surgery, miscarriages, still born, etc). She is the one always going out with friends etc and having a good time.

I have tried to communicate with her but to no avail. Maybe being apart will help understanding each other better and appreciate each other more and the things we do and perhaps missing each other might play into it. I feel getting for her to love me again after its missing for 2 years will be tough.

I understand your situation. You don't want to be the person always giving and not getting anything in return.

I spoke with a couple the other day who have been married for 60 years. they told me the secret is communications. Most people today don't communicate and take each other for granted. The wife told me that they do argue but that is good in a marriage because no marriage is prefect its the ones who can sit down and communicate and resolve their issues is what makes a good marriage.


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## sammy3

My H and I separated for over 2.+years, we are now trying mc, and R. We've grown apart in that time, and I have no idea what his life was during then, either. 

Not sure if it was a good move or not. H has always believe somehow we will find our way back to each other, I'm not so sure. 

This was my experience.

~sammy


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## Keenwa

confusedinNY said:


> I have tried to communicate with her but to no avail. Maybe being apart will help understanding each other better and appreciate each other more and the things we do and perhaps missing each other might play into it. I feel getting for her to love me again after its missing for 2 years will be tough.
> 
> I understand your situation. You don't want to be the person always giving and not getting anything in return.
> 
> I spoke with a couple the other day who have been married for 60 years. they told me the secret is communications. Most people today don't communicate and take each other for granted. The wife told me that they do argue but that is good in a marriage because no marriage is prefect its the ones who can sit down and communicate and resolve their issues is what makes a good marriage.


Yeah I'd have to agree with that. I have to say, my H and I have been really honest with each other lately... Brutally honest and it has been helpful. I think in all of this it really helps to let go of the idea of holding on to the marriage... the marriage as an object. I think many marriages end up in a weird codependent place where we lose ourselves in it. So letting go of this idea that we "HAVE TO" stick together is really healthy. I think we need to really figure out who the hell we are after all of these years of "supporting " each other, and know who we are and then decide if we want to be together. I mean what is so tragic about taking different paths? Really... if we let go of what other people think etc... etc. If we can't be honest with each other and have open communication then we can't have a good marriage. Lots of people stay together, but not a lot are happy. I don't know very many people who are happy in their marriages.


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## Keenwa

sammy3 said:


> My H and I separated for over 2.+years, we are now trying mc, and R. We've grown apart in that time, and I have no idea what his life was during then, either.
> 
> Not sure if it was a good move or not. H has always believe somehow we will find our way back to each other, I'm not so sure.
> 
> This was my experience.
> 
> ~sammy



How do you feel about that in the end? are you happy to be separated or wish you were back together?


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## LongWalk

One thing is clear: the chances of fixing dysfunctional husbands is better if the wife realizes the threat of divorce is the only thing that will spark change. Sadly, threat of divorce come when it is already very late, often too late.

There are many reasons I did not know how to be a good husband. I would have tried to change things if I had had more insight into myself but it came way too late. In fact, after I joined TAM.

People have their own individual issues. But I think men and women are also very poorly educated about relationships. There ought to be lessons taught by famous actors, actresses, sports stars, etc. that specifically reach out to young people. Sex education is important, but what good is knowing a little about sex but nothing about psychology.

OP,

Your husband needs to bust his butt, getting work.


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## squid1035

sammy3 said:


> My H and I separated for over 2.+years, we are now trying mc, and R. We've grown apart in that time, and I have no idea what his life was during then, either.
> 
> Not sure if it was a good move or not. H has always believe somehow we will find our way back to each other, I'm not so sure.
> 
> This was my experience.
> 
> ~sammy


Do you want to get back together? My wife has accepted me back into the house - although not quite sure the marriage - after a couple weeks of separation. I'm eager to try and mend our relationship and get back on solid ground. But I can feel her being cautiously distant. Which makes me want to be cautious and distant to respect her need for space. As I said, I'm not so sure if she's convinced that she wants me anymore, even though she's allowed me to come back.

Confused. :scratchhead: (that's the 1st time I've ever used an emoticon. sorry)


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## Keenwa

LongWalk said:


> One thing is clear: the chances of fixing dysfunctional husbands is better if the wife realizes the threat of divorce is the only thing that will spark change. Sadly, threat of divorce come when it is already very late, often too late.
> 
> There are many reasons I did not know how to be a good husband. I would have tried to change things if I had had more insight into myself but it came way too late. In fact, after I joined TAM.
> 
> People have their own individual issues. But I think men and women are also very poorly educated about relationships. There ought to be lessons taught by famous actors, actresses, sports stars, etc. that specifically reach out to young people. Sex education is important, but what good is knowing a little about sex but nothing about psychology.
> 
> OP,
> 
> Your husband needs to bust his butt, getting work.


I think this is where my husband is. I never felt it fair to "threaten" with divorce so I waited until I actually wanted a divorce. I was clear that it wasn't an ultimatum. I was just done, done, done being a parent to my spouse. Not that I'm perfect, that is absolutely not the case. WE both created this dysfunction. I enabled his passivity by taking more and more on and as a result losing myself completely. 

He seems to be trying very hard, but he has a long way to go now, and I'm not sure I can wait for however many years it takes him to start feeling emotions after spending 40 odd years sucking them in. I didn't realize when I met him how emotionless he was. Though I did used to ask him what he was thinking or say things like "we never seem to talk" to which he would reply "what do you mean? We talk all the time". 

One thing I've learned is that we are all attracted to our partners for reasons which link back to what was missing in our childhoods... and if we outgrow that or move past it then often times the relationship seems to dwindle. 

Yes I agree we don't learn how to express ourselves properly, and who of us grew up in a "functional" family.? Not many.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> I think many marriages end up in a weird codependent place where we lose ourselves in it. So letting go of this idea that we "HAVE TO" stick together is really healthy. I think we need to really figure out who the hell we are after all of these years of "supporting " each other, and know who we are and then decide if we want to be together. I mean what is so tragic about taking different paths? Really... if we let go of what other people think etc... etc. If we can't be honest with each other and have open communication then we can't have a good marriage. Lots of people stay together, but not a lot are happy. I don't know very many people who are happy in their marriages.


Keenwa,

I definitely think that marriage breeds codependency. How can it not? Especially when you become to attuned to your partner's moods and tendencies. It's bound to affect your own behavior.

I've often seen you say you wished your H would tell you how he feels, not just what he's thinking? What is it that you're hoping to hear. Just curious. Is he really so out of touch with his feelings and cannot express them? Or is it just that his level or way of expression does not jibe with your own? 

I have no idea where I'm going with this line of questioning.

I asked in another thread if WAWs (walk away wives) can ever come back. Or is the slope just too slippery?

Another poster in that thread said that the key is remaining positive and strong for your wife trust that she will come around, with perhaps just a bit of nudging. Do you think that is true?


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I definitely think that marriage breeds codependency. How can it not? Especially when you become to attuned to your partner's moods and tendencies. It's bound to affect your own behavior.
> 
> I've often seen you say you wished your H would tell you how he feels, not just what he's thinking? What is it that you're hoping to hear. Just curious. Is he really so out of touch with his feelings and cannot express them? Or is it just that his level or way of expression does not jibe with your own?
> 
> I have no idea where I'm going with this line of questioning.
> 
> I asked in another thread if WAWs (walk away wives) can ever come back. Or is the slope just too slippery?
> 
> Another poster in that thread said that the key is remaining positive and strong for your wife trust that she will come around, with perhaps just a bit of nudging. Do you think that is true?


Hey Squid, 

thanks for the reply. 

I agree that most marriages breed codependency and I thought that was normal for many years... but now I'm learning that a healthy relationship really shouldn't be this way. We can only really relate in a healthy way if we keep our selves in tact. We can have empathy for our partner's problems and issues but we don't need to take them on as our own. 

In terms of knowing how he feels, it is very hard to have a conversation with someone who always says everything is "fine" but cannot drill down any deeper. He puts the needs of others always above his own. I have learned through MC that he does this because he doesn't want to burden anyone with his issues. But the result is you never really know who he is. He knows this now and acknowledges it as a weakness but is not willing or able to move past it. 

This issue also seems to spread to having opinions. He doesn't have a lot of strong opinions or values, (well I'm sure he does but doesn't share them). So I feel like he's a feather in the wind, I can blow him this way and that way, and he'll go whichever way I ask him to. In MC, if I am expressing something which really made me sad, he sits there like drone, and she says "how do you feel hearing this?", his reply is usually "well I think it's very interesting that she said that... " and goes on to talk about everything that is interesting about what i said, he remains completely composed the whole time. I know he has all kinds of things stewing underneath and hence why he is so afraid of confrontation, and doesn't want to acknowledge how he really feels about anything. He externalizes everything. I think what I am looking for is a little humanity. ANything like "wow I'm sad that you feel that way, or I'm frustrated that you would think that about me, or anything". 

I can say that he is earning some of my respect lately in the fact that he didn't just walk away, or let me walk away, that he wanted to work it out, and was willing to go for counselling. To me that is sign of an open heart and a strong person. He has no idea what he's walking into by going to therapy and is still willing to try, even if I find his progress too slow, I can appreciate and respect him for doing it. Many people are far too afraid to scratch the surface of their issues to even go there.

I don't know if the slope is too slippery, I realize that I don't know him at all, so it's hard to say. At the moment I don't hold much hope for us staying together because his progress has been so slow the past 6 months and I don't know how long I am willing to wait. But in the mean time I have also learned that I can't move forward with anger and resentment. I need to take responsibility for my part in this, for my enabling this behavior in him that i don't like which in turn makes me resentful and feeling like I am taking on everything, being both parents, and ultimately makes me feel very lonely. That is my story and my problem to resolve not his.


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## LongWalk

For sure recovery is possible. I am sure that if a spouse suddenly died, some would discover that they had loved, others would hardly be sad at all. 

For many men feelings are repressed and suppressed. A lot of what is masculine is not acceptable.

I play a contact sport. Without that expression if self I would wither. All these violent computer games are the expression of male appetites for physical adventure, even at the risk of death. Today's real life lacks stimulus.

Marriage obviates the necessity of fighting for a spouse. No wonder so marriages are unhappy. Very little happens.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## squid1035

LongWalk said:


> For sure recovery is possible. I am sure that if a spouse suddenly died, some would discover that they had loved, others would hardly be sad at all.
> 
> For many men feelings are repressed and suppressed. A lot of what is masculine is not acceptable.
> 
> I play a contact sport. Without that expression if self I would wither. All these violent computer games are the expression of male appetites for physical adventure, even at the risk of death. Today's real life lacks stimulus.
> 
> Marriage obviates the necessity of fighting for a spouse. No wonder so marriages are unhappy. Very little happens.


{{Googling "obviates"}}

I see what you mean. It's like 2 people from differing countries trying to speak to each other in different languages, each only having a very limited knowledge of each other's language. Very frustrating.

All I know is that I am still learning about things that I thought I already knew. And that I have no idea what I believe to be true anymore. I am sad that it took such a life-shattering experience to undergo such a change in me. I fear the collateral damage might be too extensive. I'm trying to remain hopeful. 

You know, TAM is wonderful for engaging in deeper discussions about marital struggles but more often than not is TERRIBLE for maintaining optimism.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> {{Googling "obviates"}}
> 
> I see what you mean. It's like 2 people from differing countries trying to speak to each other in different languages, each only having a very limited knowledge of each other's language. Very frustrating.
> 
> All I know is that I am still learning about things that I thought I already knew. And that I have no idea what I believe to be true anymore. I am sad that it took such a life-shattering experience to undergo such a change in me. I fear the collateral damage might be too extensive. I'm trying to remain hopeful.
> 
> You know, TAM is wonderful for engaging in deeper discussions about marital struggles but more often than not is TERRIBLE for maintaining optimism.


BWAA HAAA. too funny, I had to google "obviates" as well! :rofl::rofl::lol::lol:

I totally agree. One thing I find interesting though is that I have learned that when you start thinking you know how things work, how life works, then you know you are really messed up. 

Don't you think it's better to go through this and wake up a little bit then to continue living life like a drone/in a haze? Man that would be dull. If we don't experience the lows, how do we know what the highs are?


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> BWAA HAAA. too funny, I had to google "obviates" as well! :rofl::rofl::lol::lol:
> 
> I totally agree. One thing I find interesting though is that I have learned that when you start thinking you know how things work, how life works, then you know you are really messed up.
> 
> Don't you think it's better to go through this and wake up a little bit then to continue living life like a drone/in a haze? Man that would be dull. If we don't experience the lows, how do we know what the highs are?


Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Or at least until my marriage turns around. 

I understand what you say about wandering around in a drone-ish haze. But this is a brutal wake up call. I hope the fallout is survivable. We're all going on a week-long trip over Christmas to visit my father up north. Talk about a potentially really unforgettable experience. Yeesh. 

Wish us luck!!


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Or at least until my marriage turns around.
> 
> I understand what you say about wandering around in a drone-ish haze. But this is a brutal wake up call. I hope the fallout is survivable. We're all going on a week-long trip over Christmas to visit my father up north. Talk about a potentially really unforgettable experience. Yeesh.
> 
> Wish us luck!!


wow you are a glutton for punishment! hahaha

I understand what you are saying about the wake up call. I see how my H is feeling the same way and is just trying to keep up with it all. what I really am unclear about is how he could have thought things were fine up until I said I wanted to leave. Do you understand why that would be? In a way it makes me believe that I had misjudged him because I had thought he was more tuned in and perceptive. He says that he knew things weren't great but didn't think they were that bad. 

I find this really confusing. Do you have any insight on that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> wow you are a glutton for punishment! hahaha
> 
> I understand what you are saying about the wake up call. I see how my H is feeling the same way and is just trying to keep up with it all. what I really am unclear about is how he could have thought things were fine up until I said I wanted to leave. Do you understand why that would be? In a way it makes me believe that I had misjudged him because I had thought he was more tuned in and perceptive. He says that he knew things weren't great but didn't think they were that bad.
> 
> I find this really confusing. Do you have any insight on that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't speak for your husband, but I know that I went through a period where I was just too non-committal when it came to my career. What was supposed to be a transitional job turned into nearly 10 years at a company that was modestly upwardly mobile. I had a couple possible shifts in careers and potential entrepreneurship which all fell through. So I spent the last few years in a very dissatisfied state which probably affected the way I treated my wife. I wasn't emotionally abusive, but I wasn't very inspiring to be around either. Curmudgeonly is probably the best way to describe me. Anyway, I thought I had a plan and I was sticking to it. Meanwhile, I had kind of lost focus of my wife and her needs. So that's probably where the distance began - me kind of lost in my own haze of ambivalence, while my wife's was just starting to ramp up. I think that's where we are now. I'm finally on a positive track to a way more promising future for us. But I lost (or in the process of losing) my wife along the way.

I remember you saying that you hadn't been physically intimate with your husband throughout the last few years of your marriage. Has that changed? With us, it's like a switch just went off. Now there's no physical contact. I know that she's hesitant. She pretty much told me flat out that she didn't feel any emotion for me a few weeks back and that she didn't know if she could ever be intimate with me again. She simply was empty inside. So I kept my distance, wanting to respect her boundaries. On Thanksgiving any time she would move towards me, I would move away to give her space, just trying to be mindful. However, near the end of the evening she subtly leaned into me and held herself there for just the slightest bit, which surprised me. The next day she told me that she had a dream that we were kissing and that she realized that she missed me and the way I used to touch her. 

So I'm confused again. About 2 months ago, before all of this, she stopped me in the middle of a conversation we were having to tell me how much she appreciated everything that I had been doing for her lately, at how attentive I was and how much I was trying. And now we're here. Huh??


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## Fordsvt

It sounds like your guy is very Beta. I was like that too but to the point he is. Now, I'm working on the Alpha side of me and it's working. In our last MC she stated she sees a huge change in me in the last few months. It's part of my MAP that I'm doing. 
He needs to want to change for himself. You can't force it no matter how much therapy you do. He needs to see like I did, that I wasn't strong enough in voice / presence in the relationship. My wife sees my changes and doesn't know what to make of it. I think she likes it though. She commented on it in MC as a plus.

Her thinking has become very ambivalent in the last few weeks. Also it was my idea to try a trial separation which shocked her. I've taken the lead now in this relationship repair and she is seeing a different angle now.


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## squid1035

Fordsvt said:


> It sounds like your guy is very Beta. I was like that too but to the point he is. Now, I'm working on the Alpha side of me and it's working. In our last MC she stated she sees a huge change in me in the last few months. It's part of my MAP that I'm doing.
> He needs to want to change for himself. You can't force it no matter how much therapy you do. He needs to see like I did, that I wasn't strong enough in voice / presence in the relationship. My wife sees my changes and doesn't know what to make of it. I think she likes it though. She commented on it in MC as a plus.
> 
> Her thinking has become very ambivalent in the last few weeks. Also it was my idea to try a trial separation which shocked her. I've taken the lead now in this relationship repair and she is seeing a different angle now.


"MAP"?


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> I remember you saying that you hadn't been physically intimate with your husband throughout the last few years of your marriage. Has that changed? With us, it's like a switch just went off. Now there's no physical contact. I know that she's hesitant. She pretty much told me flat out that she didn't feel any emotion for me a few weeks back and that she didn't know if she could ever be intimate with me again. She simply was empty inside. So I kept my distance, wanting to respect her boundaries. On Thanksgiving any time she would move towards me, I would move away to give her space, just trying to be mindful. However, near the end of the evening she subtly leaned into me and held herself there for just the slightest bit, which surprised me. The next day she told me that she had a dream that we were kissing and that she realized that she missed me and the way I used to touch her.
> 
> So I'm confused again. About 2 months ago, before all of this, she stopped me in the middle of a conversation we were having to tell me how much she appreciated everything that I had been doing for her lately, at how attentive I was and how much I was trying. And now we're here. Huh??


It's weird isn't it? NO we are not intimate at all. He is trying now but I don't feel it and actually I resent it. In the past few years I would convince myself saying "well I need ot try, make an effort" and sometimes it would turn out ok, sometimes even more than ok, but now I just have no energy or desire to "try" anymore. If it doesn't come naturally I don't want to do anything anymore, I am so, so , so extremely exhausted from trying, in every way possible, that I'm done. So that is very hard. There is also the fact that I feel like as long as things seem hunky dory from the surface my h seems to think things are on the "up and up"... so it makes me resist that. 

Had a bad night tonight where we got home from a night at a party only to have him completely blow off the person who had generously offered to babysit, and then to just say "well I"m tired I'm going to bed"... left me to put our daughter to bed. That's an old story of resentment for me... the story of "well, hey F&*!#$ it must be nice to just go to bed when you're tired....". So that's where I'm at today.

Forstvt - I agree he is very beta, VERY BETA. And I"m tired of being Alpha. That's great that this is working for you. I think it's important. I am not a submissive person, but I do want to take a backseat sometimes. I really want to be with someone who can sometimes take the driver's seat... I'm exhausted from always taking control.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> So I'm confused again. About 2 months ago, before all of this, she stopped me in the middle of a conversation we were having to tell me how much she appreciated everything that I had been doing for her lately, at how attentive I was and how much I was trying. And now we're here. Huh??


well all I can say is it's a roller coaster ride and we all have our ups and downs. I know when I think with my head I come to the conclusion that things are ok, i have a nice guy, he's trying real hard etc etc. But if I tune into my real feelings I realize it's not working. I don't feel connected and a friend of mine who is divorced said to me at one point she realized "It just shouldn't be this hard". 

I also get, and understand though that there can be great learning in working it through, because we have a lot to learn from each other. 

I feel much like your wife I guess. I really appreciate all that he is doing and I know he's doing it because he loves me, and of course that feels good, and it makes me feel loved in a certain way. However it still doesn't make me feel like i am "in love" with him, if that makes sense.


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## 1bldaz

You keep saying you are done but yet you are here? Why? What do you want and does your husband "know" this? Chances are your not talking to each other the way you are talking here. Or this is just rationalizations. 
Hard truths and they are even tougher to deal with. But it doesn't have to be that way. Take the anger and resentment and put it aside for a while and tell the truth and be open to success. 
If you don't want to try accept all the possible conclusions, and understand they will never turn out to be your best thought of scenarios and move on. OR try again. The best of luck, really I mean it.


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## squid1035

1bldaz said:


> You keep saying you are done but yet you are here? Why? What do you want and does your husband "know" this? Chances are your not talking to each other the way you are talking here. Or this is just rationalizations.
> Hard truths and they are even tougher to deal with. But it doesn't have to be that way. Take the anger and resentment and put it aside for a while and tell the truth and be open to success.
> If you don't want to try accept all the possible conclusions, and understand they will never turn out to be your best thought of scenarios and move on. OR try again. The best of luck, really I mean it.


Great comment.

Keenwa, do you want a positive outcome from all of this? Or is this just a prolonging of the conclusion that you really want - which is divorce? I remember you saying that you're there, in the same house. So it's either s**t or get off the pot, right?

I know that even now your husband still drops the ball in the responsibility department. I know for me, letting down the kids is not even an option. I will always be there for them. Is that why you're sticking around? Just curious.

We've had some better days lately. I don't want to be overly optimistic. But I think we both want something good to come of all of this. We both want to emerge better and closer. It's just a very cautious road right now. I'm going to move back this week, I think. Or I might just see how our family vacation goes and move in after Christmas. I'm so paranoid that I might do something that will trigger her to think of something that I did before that brought about all of this.

Hope you're doing okay, Keenwa.


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## Keenwa

1bldaz said:


> You keep saying you are done but yet you are here? Why? What do you want and does your husband "know" this? Chances are your not talking to each other the way you are talking here. Or this is just rationalizations.
> Hard truths and they are even tougher to deal with. But it doesn't have to be that way. Take the anger and resentment and put it aside for a while and tell the truth and be open to success.
> If you don't want to try accept all the possible conclusions, and understand they will never turn out to be your best thought of scenarios and move on. OR try again. The best of luck, really I mean it.


Yup I agree with you. However it's all easier said than done. I'm sure if I were looking at myself from the outside I'd say "make a decision already". However I have always been a person who thinks things through to the Nth degree just to make sure i haven't missed something, or haven't quite tried hard enough. At times I wish I could be more like other people who just say "done", but I"m not. We have been talking really openly. The trick I find however is talking openly but not hurting the other person for no reason. 

I agree with what you say about being open to success... I'm not sure I am. I'm not sure I can believe that my H is ever going to get there. I am trying to be open to success but really very skeptical that it can happen. So that's where I'm at. But I get that I'm responsible as well. We are all wading through our own marshes here in this forum... if things were that black and white we wouldn't be here looking for help.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Great comment.
> 
> Keenwa, do you want a positive outcome from all of this? Or is this just a prolonging of the conclusion that you really want - which is divorce? I remember you saying that you're there, in the same house. So it's either s**t or get off the pot, right?
> 
> I know that even now your husband still drops the ball in the responsibility department. I know for me, letting down the kids is not even an option. I will always be there for them. Is that why you're sticking around? Just curious.
> 
> We've had some better days lately. I don't want to be overly optimistic. But I think we both want something good to come of all of this. We both want to emerge better and closer. It's just a very cautious road right now. I'm going to move back this week, I think. Or I might just see how our family vacation goes and move in after Christmas. I'm so paranoid that I might do something that will trigger her to think of something that I did before that brought about all of this.
> 
> Hope you're doing okay, Keenwa.


Thanks. No I don't worry about letting down the kids. I know that will not happen. I know H is committed to them and I am as well. I think I feel guilty about doing something for me, when this little nuclear family could just go along quite well if I'd just stop being such a PIA. I feel like the only thing which doesn't work in this family, is my relationship to my H and so in a way I feel guilty for wanting more out of life and out of a partner.


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## Fordsvt

MAP is the male action plan. We have been in MC for about three months. But I'm moving out in January. So yes it's helped but we aren't closer to resolution. I'm in a better place personally but we are not at the point of figuring it out.

There are no simple answers. Yet we had a party Saturday night for my co workers. She was jealous of one attractive female who I work with. I was accused of staring at her all night and touching her on the small of the back too many times. Really? Me focusing on being alpha and changing has changed her too. I guess it's a double edged sword.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keenwa

Fordsvt said:


> MAP is the male action plan. We have been in MC for about three months. But I'm moving out in January. So yes it's helped but we aren't closer to resolution. I'm in a better place personally but we are not at the point of figuring it out.
> 
> There are no simple answers. Yet we had a party Saturday night for my co workers. She was jealous of one attractive female who I work with. I was accused of staring at her all night and touching her on the small of the back too many times. Really? Me focusing on being alpha and changing has changed her too. I guess it's a double edged sword.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, it's that "careful what you wish for" concept. Sometimes we think we want something different but when we get it, it comes with all kinds of other issues, or triggers. That is why I am trying to stick in there. I want to make sure I'm not just looking for something different but the same. Sometimes we really can't see through all the crap to see what is also good in what we have. You want more alpha, then you will have to deal with people being attracted to your spouse, and then in turn perhaps learning a new level of trust you didn't have to learn before when you saw your H as passive. 

I also want to learn to change myself and the way I communicate because I don't want to walk out of one dysfuctional relationship and head right into the same relationship again with a different guy.


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## Fordsvt

Being more Alpha and using the MAP has made her pay attention. 
It shows we can move on. Then jealousy sets in. It's worked for me. Last night we talk for two hours. Solved a few issues too. 
She is not so sure about separation now. It works. You just have to stick to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kolors

Keenwa said:


> Sometimes we really can't see through all the crap to see what is also good in what we have. /QUOTE]
> 
> ^ This. My wife has been in this boat for a while. She keeps looking for moments where we do not get along instead of periods where we do.
> 
> She also has a case of "the only thing that isn't fitting here is me" where she knows that I am happy, the kids are happy, and she could be happy but she cannot let go of old hurt. She has many things, almost exactly like your husband just going to bed the other night while you put the daughter to bed, that she has held on to over the years. She too is afraid that the old "passionate" love cannot come back because she has killed it off to make it easier to leave.
> 
> I know that she still has some of it in there and would like a whole family again if she could only believe that things can stay fixed. It is a long road.
> 
> 
> If you do sit back and watch your husband he will continue to make mistakes. He needs to have the mistakes pointed out though, maybe not in a conversation though. Try putting a notebook in the kitchen and writing down things that he does that you feel damage your relationship. He will either fix them, come to you to talk about them, or realize that he is incapable of giving you what you want.


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## Keenwa

Kolors said:


> Keenwa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes we really can't see through all the crap to see what is also good in what we have. /QUOTE]
> 
> ^ This. My wife has been in this boat for a while. She keeps looking for moments where we do not get along instead of periods where we do.
> 
> She also has a case of "the only thing that isn't fitting here is me" where she knows that I am happy, the kids are happy, and she could be happy but she cannot let go of old hurt. She has many things, almost exactly like your husband just going to bed the other night while you put the daughter to bed, that she has held on to over the years. She too is afraid that the old "passionate" love cannot come back because she has killed it off to make it easier to leave.
> 
> I know that she still has some of it in there and would like a whole family again if she could only believe that things can stay fixed. It is a long road.
> 
> 
> If you do sit back and watch your husband he will continue to make mistakes. He needs to have the mistakes pointed out though, maybe not in a conversation though. Try putting a notebook in the kitchen and writing down things that he does that you feel damage your relationship. He will either fix them, come to you to talk about them, or realize that he is incapable of giving you what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Ford -I agree that being more Alpha works if you have been Beta for years. I am enjoying my husband making baby steps towards that.
> 
> Kolors, thanks for your comments. I agree.
> 
> I have had a bit of turnaround in my thought patterns this past week when my therapist made me look long and hard in the mirror to see what I was doing to contribute to this. So giving me the task of not allowing any thoughts of blaming him for anything to emerge but to look at how I deal with things, and how I have contributed to this. Also to take ownership for my own happiness. So I have really had a long hard look at how I live my life and what I want out of life and am realizing that there are a great many things in my life that I don't like and want to change and those have nothing to do with my H, ie, my work is not inspiring to me anymore, I am tired of spending too many hours doing domestic things, cleaning, cooking etc.. so I have changed my focus back to myself to really figure out what I want. Maybe if I can find happiness and inspiration in what i do daily, the focus on my happiness will not be so much on my H... Sure I need to keep communicating with him with regards to what he does to drive me crazy, and how he triggers me, but in the mean time focus on myself and what i can do today to make myself happier today.
> 
> I am also finding it helpful to not focus on the bedroom and what is NOT happening there. Just re-establish some communication again, take small steps, I have to start liking him again before I can love him or feel remotely attracted, and he has work to do to become more Alpha as you say. There is nothing sexy about a man who you view as a child or as a pushover.
Click to expand...


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## Fordsvt

Being more Alpha really worked for me. As did the MAP and 180. 
She wants to save it now. We discussed over coffee yesterday. The jealousy of my co worker and seeing me being happy finally got to her. 
We are going to work at reconciliation. It can work for you too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keenwa

Fordsvt said:


> Being more Alpha really worked for me. As did the MAP and 180.
> She wants to save it now. We discussed over coffee yesterday. The jealousy of my co worker and seeing me being happy finally got to her.
> We are going to work at reconciliation. It can work for you too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's great Ford! My H seems to think that being Alpha means making decisions without asking me… so it's like he doesn't know how to be alpha but is trying really hard and missing the mark. Ah well. I can appreciate the effort I suppose. :scratchhead:


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## sammy3

I' m sorry, Ive been away from posting, & do not mean to hi-jack this but want to answer two peoples questions on how my h and I getting back after 2.5 years of separation is going ? Not sure. And thank you for asking. 

Everything is so weird. It seems & feels like we know each other less. It seems we communicate differently. There's no easiness, no just a natural eye contact. We are trying to make it work, but it feels so not right . 

Another thing, all the new changes he's been working on, well, frankly, I don't like my "new & improved" husband. 

Everything seems now non trusting. Mc is trying so hard for me to "hear" his reasons, I don't have to like them, just have to hear them. 
We still have 3 place of living we go back thur, so I'm not sure how much of us living together back we are doing, but by the nature of his job, he has always been gone. 

Finally my anger is controlled, but took almost the 2 years to do so, and finally only because of medications. I have never ever know anger as I did these past two years,and hope I never again. 

There is no emotional intimacy now, though I know he & me really did love "us" at one time, as we were the perfect 2 to and for each other other. We both do still love each other, but now he seems bitter towards me in ways. 

He has really moved on more than I had during the 2.5 years apart. We had zero guidelines, again my anger wouldnt even allow. He now is asking me to help him with his way back as he has been gone a long time.

He is the ww, & is really doing soooo much better than me in this process. He lives 6 states away, just bought an airplane, 2 motorcycle, and a sport car. He had my backing on all but the motorcycles. He travels, he has many people in his life now, he is very unpredictable in his life and living now, he has become the biggest cheerleader of life and his motto is, "leave the gloom and doom behind." 

He flys home to "the home" we now are sharing for 2 days, maybe 3, we go out to eat, mc, I do all the things I always did, and I feel uncomfortable in the home we shared for 27 years. He is very happy when he comes in. I just wonder why I am not? 

~sammy


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## squid1035

sammy3 said:


> He is the ww, & is really doing soooo much better than me in this process. He lives 6 states away, just bought an airplane, 2 motorcycle, and a sport car. He had my backing on all but the motorcycles. He travels, he has many people in his life now, he is very unpredictable in his life and living now, he has become the biggest cheerleader of life and his motto is, "leave the gloom and doom behind."
> 
> He flys home to "the home" we now are sharing for 2 days, maybe 3, we go out to eat, mc, I do all the things I always did, and I feel uncomfortable in the home we shared for 27 years. He is very happy when he comes in. I just wonder why I am not?
> 
> ~sammy


It sounds like he has moved on and you have not. I'm in that place too, I think. Trying to hold on to the last vestige of what you thought was a happy marriage, even though it clearly was not.

It's so weird. You've spent this huge chunk of your life with this person. You've shared everything - your soul, your body, your heart. You've experienced the most intimate moments you could ever spend with a person, from sex right down to pooping naked in front of him/her while he/she is standing next to you brushing his/her teeth. Then one day - POOF - that's gone. It's like the spell has been broken. In its place is now indifference and mistrust. You know you haven't changed. For better or worse, your feelings haven't changed. But your partner's have. 

I don't know how unrequited within a marriage can ever work. But I kind of feel that's what is happening right now in my marriage. My wife and I are talking openly and honestly. We're laughing and joking and telling each other stories and sharing our lives. But on the other side, we no longer hold hands or even kiss. It's like I got pushed into the friend-zone inside my own marriage. How the hell is that supposed to work? 

This probably doesn't help, sammy3. Just sharing.


----------



## blackdog

Squid,

I hear ya. The friend zone. The holiday season was a lot of stories, poking fun at each other and laughter. But still no physical contact. I really do not think I can take more months of this.


----------



## blackdog

Keenwa,

I like your way of thinking. I have been Mr. Mom for almost two years now. We have 6 kids, so the housework can be overwhelming at times. All I have to do sometimes is think about how horrible a couple of my jobs were that I really, really disliked. Then the washer and dryer do not look like monsters anymore. Happiness in the house has to have some improvements on the marriage as well. I totally agree.


----------



## sammy3

It is funny for me, as soon as d-day, he has wanted to fix the problems somehow, & anyway he could, but always too, played the "victim" role a bit to long... 

But one minute after 9.00pm on May 11, 2011, I knew inside my heart my marriage was over, ...for me, a 30 year marriage gone, for ever changed. A good 30 year marriage for the most part. 

That has been the worst part of all of this mess for me. My h really is a good man. A generous man. An honest man..., to all,except (affair) to me. But, when people write, the ww "isn't the person they use to be," or, "I miss my old spouse," gosh, I never ever, ever understood that more clearly than I do now. Of course he doesn't understand it.

No issues to speak of before between us, other than what I thought of long term marriage stuff, w his career changing, son on to university, etc...He has always put me first in every way. Right after D-day, he made a huge deposit of cash in my account. Wanted to put the house in my name,((it is fully paid for, I said no,)) renting me an apt in NYC, for 2 years. Paying for everything, & giving me a handsome monthly "allowance." I really want for nothing. 

Even the D lawyer told me I would have to give back some of the funding that he has done for me to equal the field for him.(wtf)... Yet, he still can earn a good income until he dies if he wants... Me no...

And I know no one will treat me ((in the good ways))like he has,again, nor I he, as we did love each other, & still very much do but in a very much different way. I know too, no matter what road I choose neither road will be the road that I thought I was going to be on. 

And that's the struggle. I question so much who I am, what I am, why it's so difficult to take him back after all he has tried. It makes me feel so ugly inside. The strong convictions, the deal breakers, the reality... 

It has caused me so much anguish, as I've questioned every part of everything I am made of. I guess, lololo, the 1950 term of a mental breakdown, would be very fitting. The man I loved for such a long time had the ability to make me as ill as he did. When I close my eyes, & look back I am shocked how freaking selfish he was. I wished so he just wanted to stay w the ow. 

I understand now leading up to the affair "I wasn't meeting his needs," that's all fine and dandy, well, I too understand, he wasn't "meeting my needs" then either, & I was, & still am, as vulnerable as he. I too could have walked that path, & blamed him for not meeting my love language... And all that other stuff. Reality is, he knew it was me that he just tossed aside for his own selfish needs. I did nothing, & am paying a very high mental price for his actions.

So I don't know how this is going to pan out. There is a lot of uncoupling to do after such a long time, but all I know, this is the hardest thing I have ever had to face in my life ever, & it's not the affair, or hubs that I have to come to peace with, but it's myself... 

~sammy

Again, dont mean to hi-jack ...


----------



## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> It sounds like he has moved on and you have not. I'm in that place too, I think. Trying to hold on to the last vestige of what you thought was a happy marriage, even though it clearly was not.
> 
> It's so weird. You've spent this huge chunk of your life with this person. You've shared everything - your soul, your body, your heart. You've experienced the most intimate moments you could ever spend with a person, from sex right down to pooping naked in front of him/her while he/she is standing next to you brushing his/her teeth. Then one day - POOF - that's gone. It's like the spell has been broken. In its place is now indifference and mistrust. You know you haven't changed. For better or worse, your feelings haven't changed. But your partner's have.
> 
> I don't know how unrequited within a marriage can ever work. But I kind of feel that's what is happening right now in my marriage. My wife and I are talking openly and honestly. We're laughing and joking and telling each other stories and sharing our lives. But on the other side, we no longer hold hands or even kiss. It's like I got pushed into the friend-zone inside my own marriage. How the hell is that supposed to work?
> 
> This probably doesn't help, sammy3. Just sharing.


That is what I find amazingly hard to wrap my brain around. Sometimes I think if I'd just turn my attitude around maybe things would be better, but also realize that blaming myself is not the answer. 

Sammy3 - I can relate to the anguish you feel, and am realizing that it comes down to the fact that we don't honour our feelings. You can rationalize the hell out of things, and your mind might come to one conclusion (ie stay together) but your heart is not into it. In the end, I believe it is really unhealthy to try to shut out your heart and only operate with your head. So many people do it, but really we all deserve happiness, we all deserve to have our feelings validated, and in the end what is the big deal if we separate/divorce? 

I am in that same place right now, where I am trying really hard with my brain to convince my heart that I should feel a certain way, and try as I may, it doesn't seem to work. It gets harder the more my husband tries to fix things because I feel guilty. I feel like I should just be happy with what I have, and maybe I am just a spoiled brat, or just so weird that I can't seem to find happiness in all of this. But I have to remind myself and be nice to myself and learn to just be ok with what I feel instead of feeling like it's not ok to want what I want and need what I need.


----------



## AlmostYoung

Hi Keenwa, I just read through your thread and wanted to tell you that I commend you for all the effort you have put into saving your marriage. Even if you do end up pulling the plug, I can see you have not taken your marriage vows lightly.

As long as you are searching for that "happiness", remember too that D will be painful. For years. But I'm sure you already are aware of this. 

I'm hoping you find what you need to feel happy.


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## Daisy2714

Keenwa,

I want so much to be able to give you advice but we both now I'm not qualified. Not when I'm in the same boat with you and struggling with the same fight. 

I do want to say how much I appreciate you and that I hope you will stick around here and keep us updated. I think it's time for you to give yourself permission to let go. You really have gone the extra mile. It's time for the next step. 

There I go trying to give you advice. 

I wish the best for you. I really feel like we could have been great friends in the real world. 

Best regards,
Daisy


----------



## Keenwa

AlmostYoung said:


> Hi Keenwa, I just read through your thread and wanted to tell you that I commend you for all the effort you have put into saving your marriage. Even if you do end up pulling the plug, I can see you have not taken your marriage vows lightly.
> 
> As long as you are searching for that "happiness", remember too that D will be painful. For years. But I'm sure you already are aware of this.
> 
> I'm hoping you find what you need to feel happy.


thank you for the note, to be honest it's been probably at least five years of unhappiness so I'm not quite sure that being divorced could be much worse apart from the juggling of the kids from one place to the next which frankly I find pretty frightening
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keenwa

Daisy2714 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I want so much to be able to give you advice but we both now I'm not qualified. Not when I'm in the same boat with you and struggling with the same fight.
> 
> I do want to say how much I appreciate you and that I hope you will stick around here and keep us updated. I think it's time for you to give yourself permission to let go. You really have gone the extra mile. It's time for the next step.
> 
> There I go trying to give you advice.
> 
> I wish the best for you. I really feel like we could have been great friends in the real world.
> 
> Best regards,
> Daisy


hi Daisy, advice is great, but often times just what we need is a sympathetic ear. So if it's nice to know that there someone else in a similar place as me, so I'm finding this forum very helpful.

just knowing that you are going through the same experience or similar is already helpful. You are right we probably could be good friends in the real world, but cyber friends are good too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> thank you for the note, to be honest it's been probably at least five years of unhappiness so I'm not quite sure that being divorced could be much worse apart from the juggling of the kids from one place to the next which frankly I find pretty frightening
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


5 years?? I just went over your original post. So you've been unhappy for 5 years and then kind of snapped last spring. Did your husband know you were unhappy for the last 5 years. Or did he become aware last spring?

Just curious. We've been in our funk for only a couple months. We endured a separation and have come back to simply working towards getting to a better place, but we have no idea what that really means. I can't imagine being in this funk for 5 years. Every day is a challenge, but I try not to show it.


----------



## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> 5 years?? I just went over your original post. So you've been unhappy for 5 years and then kind of snapped last spring. Did your husband know you were unhappy for the last 5 years. Or did he become aware last spring?
> 
> Just curious. We've been in our funk for only a couple months. We endured a separation and have come back to simply working towards getting to a better place, but we have no idea what that really means. I can't imagine being in this funk for 5 years. Every day is a challenge, but I try not to show it.


Hey the squid..

Well if you'd asked me 5 months ago, I'd have said it was quite recent but now with months of perspective I realize it's been a brewin' for quite a while. If I think realistically… it's been crappy for at LEAST 2 years… that means me going to bed late to avoid physical contact etc etc… just not been feeling it. I realize that though we may have been having sex once in a while, it was usually out of duty on my part. So that doesn't' really make it good or real. Things started falling apart when we had our first child which was about 12 years ago… but I think I was hanging on for dear life. When I finally let go of hanging on, I realized I couldn't really figure out why the heck I was hanging on so tightly. These drastic changes never happen overnight.


----------



## Fordsvt

Hi Keenwa, just wondering if anything has become better? Are you both still in MC? Keep on trying as it can come back. We've been doing great here of late. We seemed to have turned a corner and are falling in love once again. Some things I've done:

-try to remember why you fell in love in the first place
-I read the MMSLP 2x to get me in the right frame of mind
-Affirmations for her
-Present in the relationship once again
-Still in MC for us as a couple and IC for me(huge help for me)
-Tons of communication from both of us
-Addressing my issues as a person/husband
-Read No More Mr. Nice Guy
-Lots of non sexual touching, talking and show of caring.
-Much reading about her emotional needs. 


Our love making has been very intense of late. It's been fabulous really.:smthumbup:


----------



## Keenwa

Fordsvt said:


> Hi Keenwa, just wondering if anything has become better? Are you both still in MC? Keep on trying as it can come back. We've been doing great here of late. We seemed to have turned a corner and are falling in love once again. Some things I've done:
> 
> -try to remember why you fell in love in the first place
> -I read the MMSLP 2x to get me in the right frame of mind
> -Affirmations for her
> -Present in the relationship once again
> -Still in MC for us as a couple and IC for me(huge help for me)
> -Tons of communication from both of us
> -Addressing my issues as a person/husband
> -Read No More Mr. Nice Guy
> -Lots of non sexual touching, talking and show of caring.
> -Much reading about her emotional needs.
> 
> 
> Our love making has been very intense of late. It's been fabulous really.:smthumbup:


Thanks for checking in with me. Funny you should ask, just got back from MC today. It is getting better. Slowly. It is tough to unweave what are my issues, his issues and the issues as a couple but it is really helping like you say to do both types of counselling. I am realizing that there is huge frustration in my life because of road blocks I have put on myself, which I was projecting onto him. So while he was putting road blocks on me and the relationship, I am learning to unweave that which is my own creation for my feeling unsettled, unhappy and needing change. 

What is MMSLP?

I was getting really stuck in the concept that he is really out of touch with his feelings and it was making me feel like our conversations were going nowhere, and if I wanted them to go somewhere I needed to be his "therapist". But am learning now to really stay true to expressing how I feel when he doesn't connect with me, and keep the conversation on task. (he tends to really go into the "I think" mode and not ever talk about how he feels). 

So I will try that. I have a hard time being really specific about what i need/want, and want from him, and maybe partly because I am still a bit unsure about the relationship, it's hard to really want anything from him, but realizing that if we are together and trying to work it out, I still need to be clear in my communication. 

So yes all that to say we are doing better, still unsure as to what the future holds but it's a process and it's exhausting sometimes, but in the end the goal is to find a better way of living which is more authentic and it doesn't matter if it's together or apart. I have to let go of that piece right now or I get totally stressed out. 

It does feel good to not be so angry and to feel like I do have some control over my life again.


----------



## Keenwa

Had a bad day yesterday. Sat down and tried to have some really directed conversation about things and they basically went nowhere. I am starting to think that H is passive aggressive. He won't openly say "yes I want to do that" or "no I don't want that"… our conversations feel like me pulling teeth, or me telling him how I feel and he looking at my like i'm from mars. No emotion ever seems to come out of him at all, and he tries to fix my problems. 

These conversations seem to drive us farther apart, and i can only dream of being on my own. I'm so tired of trying to make this work, it seems the more I begin to connect with who I really am, the more it drives us apart. Maybe that is why I neatly tucked myself into the drawer for so long… It makes me sad to think how the kids will react and I can't even wrap my head around the logistics of moving out, finding an affordable place etc… today I'm feeling pretty hopeless.


----------



## Openminded

Make a plan for your life going forward. It will make you feel more in control. And your mind won't feel so chaotic. When I was planning my divorce I found that making lists of things that needed to be done helped me.


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Had a bad day yesterday. Sat down and tried to have some really directed conversation about things and they basically went nowhere. I am starting to think that H is passive aggressive. He won't openly say "yes I want to do that" or "no I don't want that"… our conversations feel like me pulling teeth, or me telling him how I feel and he looking at my like i'm from mars. No emotion ever seems to come out of him at all, and he tries to fix my problems.
> 
> These conversations seem to drive us farther apart, and i can only dream of being on my own. I'm so tired of trying to make this work, it seems the more I begin to connect with who I really am, the more it drives us apart. Maybe that is why I neatly tucked myself into the drawer for so long… It makes me sad to think how the kids will react and I can't even wrap my head around the logistics of moving out, finding an affordable place etc… today I'm feeling pretty hopeless.


Keenwa,


Sorry you had a bad day. I'm also still trying to gauge where we're at. We've been talking a lot lately too. Planning for the future, which feels good. Wife told me this weekend after a really fun evening of wine tasting and laughing that she really appreciated how much I've been trying lately to attend to her needs. But she's still stuck on being really cautious, afraid that I might slip back to where we were after things start feeling good again. I told her that I'm also feeling cautious not only about inadvertently hurting her in her rather fragile emotional state, but that she might take my earnest gestures as contrived or insincere. I kind of feel better that she (maybe ?) reassured me that I need to let go of that anxiety and move forward. I feel she needs to do the same with her guarded self. Can anyone interpret that for me?

There's still a gulf between us. Maybe we're both too afraid to know where to go, relationship-wise. Kind of stuck.

Anyway, I hope you feel better, Keenwa.


----------



## Fordsvt

Sorry you had a bad day. We had many of those too. 
Married Man Sex Life Primer is a book. 
Keep at it as if it was meant to be it will get better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> 
> Sorry you had a bad day. I'm also still trying to gauge where we're at. We've been talking a lot lately too. Planning for the future, which feels good. Wife told me this weekend after a really fun evening of wine tasting and laughing that she really appreciated how much I've been trying lately to attend to her needs. But she's still stuck on being really cautious, afraid that I might slip back to where we were after things start feeling good again. I told her that I'm also feeling cautious not only about inadvertently hurting her in her rather fragile emotional state, but that she might take my earnest gestures as contrived or insincere. I kind of feel better that she (maybe ?) reassured me that I need to let go of that anxiety and move forward. I feel she needs to do the same with her guarded self. Can anyone interpret that for me?
> 
> There's still a gulf between us. Maybe we're both too afraid to know where to go, relationship-wise. Kind of stuck.
> 
> Anyway, I hope you feel better, Keenwa.


yeah I've taken it upon myself to really nurture my needs… so things I haven't done in a while I need to start again. So I'm doing more exercise which feels great and signed up for a class I want to take. I am starting to feel really good when I'm alone, but when he gets home, I find it really hard. I guess maybe it takes time? I don't know, though I'm feeling better personally, like I'm not waiting for him, to move my life forward, now I kind of feel like i"m leaving him in the dust. Doing all the things I want to do, and realizing we have little in common, which seems exacerbate my frustration and/or sadness. I am wondering if that is why I'd tucked myself neatly away for so many years, because I feared if I truly was myself and pursued living how I want to live, that it would not include him. He seems happy to live a humdrum life, work, come home, work, come home…

I am realizing that what makes him happy is exactly what makes me anxious and depressed and perhaps the other way around. I thrive on possibility, innovation, experience, and he seems to thrive on comfort, stability, and reassurance, but seems intrigued and interested in the other side of the coin, only not willing to act on it. I guess that's what's kept me here so long, I feel like he continues to "talk the talk" of being a bit adventurous, but that's all it is, talk. I think I'm scared that this is the end, that we really are two different people on two different paths, and though I like the comfort of having a partner, I realize that i feel really crappy in this relationship most of the time. 



Not sure how to move forward with this.. I guess for now my plan is to continue working on finding my own path, and if he is part of that then ok. I want to get to the place where I can either walk in or walk out of the relationship from a place of peace and clarity. Is that actually possible?


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa,

How have things been going? Still stuck in limbo?


----------



## Keenwa

Hey Squid,

Yup still stuck in limbo but things are starting to become more clear. We took a trip away with another family which in many ways was nice but it became really clear to me anyhow that we are not a couple. In our last therapy session together the therapist said we weren't getting anywhere really. What is becoming clear to me is that it's not about the little things that he does or does not do, as he's picked up a lot of the slack in that area. None the less we are still not a couple. It seems to me he is totally confused on what that means to me, and I think that he is content with the type of relationship we have, and I am not. So it's becoming pretty clear to me that this relationship has simply come to an end. I love him as a person, he's a lovely man, but my needs are not met by him and that is ok. There are other things at play here, fundamental ways we want to live our lives which are so diametrically opposed that I don't think the two can meet ever. 

So that's where I"m at right now. I think he has given up as well, though perhaps I am misreading this. We don't talk anymore about "the relationship". We just co-exist in a friendly matter. I don't know how he feels about it and frankly I'm exhausted from trying, and asking. So I don't. 

I am starting to get excited about creating a new life.


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Hey Squid,
> 
> Yup still stuck in limbo but things are starting to become more clear. We took a trip away with another family which in many ways was nice but it became really clear to me anyhow that we are not a couple. In our last therapy session together the therapist said we weren't getting anywhere really. What is becoming clear to me is that it's not about the little things that he does or does not do, as he's picked up a lot of the slack in that area. None the less we are still not a couple. It seems to me he is totally confused on what that means to me, and I think that he is content with the type of relationship we have, and I am not. So it's becoming pretty clear to me that this relationship has simply come to an end. I love him as a person, he's a lovely man, but my needs are not met by him and that is ok. There are other things at play here, fundamental ways we want to live our lives which are so diametrically opposed that I don't think the two can meet ever.
> 
> So that's where I"m at right now. I think he has given up as well, though perhaps I am misreading this. We don't talk anymore about "the relationship". We just co-exist in a friendly matter. I don't know how he feels about it and frankly I'm exhausted from trying, and asking. So I don't.
> 
> I am starting to get excited about creating a new life.



Well, at least it seems like you're both on the same page and have sort of the same perspective on where you marriage is headed. 

I can't say that we're there yet. We're still trying to figure things out too. My wife says she's simply not going to expect anything any more for now. No more expectations. Just time to focus on herself for the time being. School has her pretty much wiped out by the end of the day, so she's exhausted by the time I get home from work. We still go out and she's really, genuinely in a happy mood when we're out enjoying some food and drinks and each other's company. But after, she defaults back to her guarded self. We talk about the future together. We never talk about being apart. Only our fears if we move forward, that we might slip back to how things were that brought us to here.

I suppose there's hope. No idea, really.


----------



## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Well, at least it seems like you're both on the same page and have sort of the same perspective on where you marriage is headed.
> 
> I can't say that we're there yet. We're still trying to figure things out too. My wife says she's simply not going to expect anything any more for now. No more expectations. Just time to focus on herself for the time being. School has her pretty much wiped out by the end of the day, so she's exhausted by the time I get home from work. We still go out and she's really, genuinely in a happy mood when we're out enjoying some food and drinks and each other's company. But after, she defaults back to her guarded self. We talk about the future together. We never talk about being apart. Only our fears if we move forward, that we might slip back to how things were that brought us to here.
> 
> I suppose there's hope. No idea, really.


I'm really not sure where he's at, I have learned that after 16 years I really have no idea what the hell he is thinking or not thinking… more importantly. I wonder if he thinks all is hunky dory. He brings things up which involve talking bout the future and I wonder how he can do this when we don't know what the hell the future holds. I have reached complete exhaustion… Maybe we are just in a time out from our struggles, but to me it is more of a disconnect. Like we are back to the way we were before, no communication, he is not opening any communication with me beyond the surface talk about kids and logistics of life in general. I am not opening it up because I know the answer I will get which is nothing. The same answer I've been getting for the last year "things are ok…". 

I am really tired of feeling crappy all the time.


----------



## Keenwa

If anyone is still reading my thread, here's an update. Our MC was going nowhere, our MC basically told us not to come anymore because he was always checking in with the same story "I need to take initiative and am not doing it, not sure why, " yada yada. 

My counselling has been focusing on what can I do to make my life better, what are the things I can focus on to be the person I want to be. So I've been focusing on that, really communicating clearly what I want, not doing things out of "agency", taking care of myself instead of everyone else all the time. It's been a struggle at times to acknowledge what I want and say it out loud but I feel like I"m making progress. Our relationship on the other hand isn't. 

Part of my individual work has been to stop initiating everything all the time. When people and my H drop the ball, I always pick it up and run with it. So I have been stepping back from this, to create space for him to pick up the ball. He doesn't and hasn't. We have gone 3 months now without talking about anything other than life logistics, kids etc. Finally today I sent him an email and said that we've regressed back to old habits of just getting through the day and that I am done. His reply was that he could not believe that I would be willing to just let it all go without trying to learn to communicate. :scratchhead:

It feels at this point that I am just delaying the inevitable. It's been a year since I had the "I'm done" conversation with him. I have been working hard to change my patterns etc... but still, nothing has changed. We don't talk, we don't touch, and if I don't initiate conversation, time together, it doesn't happen. He sure can talk a good talk though. He talks about how in order to strengthen relationship we need to show vulnerability and communicate. Seems so odd to me that someone can get this intellectually and be completely paralyzed when it comes to trying to actually do it. Last few months he's been throwing money at me, buying expensive gifts and then is angry when I don't show huge appreciation for them. I don't care about gifts and money...argh.... 

I guess I'm just scared to say it out loud that this is not how I want to live.


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa,

Sorry to hear. I've been waiting pretty anxiously to find out how things would turn out for you, being a H on sort of the other side of your experience. 

Must say it's pretty demoralizing seeing the fight go out of you. I've been silently rooting for your success, in hopes that it would inspire a happy outcome for my own marriage. 

I can't say that we're that bad off yet, but some days I feel like there's so much work to try and feel like we're "normal". She definitely in the "not going to try right now" phase. And she doesn't give much insight into where her heart really is.

Anyhoo, I hope your "next life" is much happier than your present one.


----------



## rabbislatkin

Keenwa,

I'm so sorry that this is so painful for you and that the marriage counseling you are going to is not helpful.

Have you read the two chapters of my book yet? I'd like to send them to you directly or you can get them directly from my website.

Warmest regards.


----------



## Keenwa

Hey Squid and rabbi,

thanks for your comments. I had hope for awhile as I thought perhaps there were things or aspects of H I hadn't considered, never saw etc... definitely that is true, he has risen to much more of the challenge than I anticipated. But really it comes down to the fact that you can only change yourself, not the other person, and if the other person cannot meet you where you need to be met, then it doesn't matter much if the person changes in other ways. I think really the crux of the issue is that I played a role for years in this marriage in order to fit into it. And it suited me for a while. I have learned things along the way and it was good for awhile. One of the gifts he has given me was that he has never had an issue with money. I came from a very poor family and we always struggled to make ends meet. For a long time, the fact that I didn't need to do this with my family seemed like such a gift and so wonderful. I also grew up with a deadbeat dad who left my mom with nothing, so that was another thing that H offered. A stable dad for our kids, albeit an emotionally disconnected one. But that is not enough, because that doesn't make a marriage. Sure it's a piece of it. But in the end if we are not seen, loved, nurtured, and our partner cannot share, then that is not a partner relationship. I am learning to disentangle myself from how I enabled this co-dependency, and the more I do so, the more I feel like I am in the wrong place with the wrong person. 

He is a lovely man, with many great aspects. Communication and emotional openness and vulnerability are not in his character. I see that now. It does not seem to be in his realm of possibility at the moment.


----------



## Keenwa

rabbislatkin said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I'm so sorry that this is so painful for you and that the marriage counseling you are going to is not helpful.
> 
> Have you read the two chapters of my book yet? I'd like to send them to you directly or you can get them directly from my website.
> 
> Warmest regards.


thanks I will read them. I just signed up online. 

Cheers,


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## lfortender

Keenwa,
I hope you find strength in God to make a decision. Marriage is tough, i know, i'm struggling to survive in mine marriage. Things aren't the way we hope it should be, that's life.


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## Keenwa

lfortender said:


> Keenwa,
> I hope you find strength in God to make a decision. Marriage is tough, i know, i'm struggling to survive in mine marriage. Things aren't the way we hope it should be, that's life.


Thanks Ifortender. I don't believe in God but appreciate the thoughtfulness. Marriage is tough and there are no easy decisions. Things are not the way we hope, and it's ok as well to say so and walk away sometimes. But in the end we have to do what is right for us. We all come from different belief systems etc... so as long as we are content with our decisions in one way or another... that is ok. It doesn't need to please others, just ourselves.


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## Fordsvt

I wish Keenwa that you could share better news.
I was really hoping it would work out for you.

We are doing better at my end. We did go to Cancun alone for a week at the end of Feb. We've done other things too. It's about being together as partners/mates/friends.
We have a ways to go I'm sure.


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## Mr The Other

Keenwa said:


> ....His reply was that he could not believe that I would be willing to just let it all go without trying to learn to communicate. :scratchhead:
> 
> ....


I am the bloke, but this all rings many bells, especially this line. Communication and "emotional support" are often excuses people use instead of actually doing things.

I hope it gets better for you. Despite being male, we are in a similar situation and I also love my spouse - but effort has to be on both sides and actual effort rather than just saying stuff.


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## sammy3

Keenwa said:


> That is what I find amazingly hard to wrap my brain around. Sometimes I think if I'd just turn my attitude around maybe things would be better, but also realize that blaming myself is not the answer.
> 
> Sammy3 - I can relate to the anguish you feel, and am realizing that it comes down to the fact that we don't honour our feelings. You can rationalize the hell out of things, and your mind might come to one conclusion (ie stay together) but your heart is not into it. In the end, I believe it is really unhealthy to try to shut out your heart and only operate with your head. So many people do it, but really we all deserve happiness, we all deserve to have our feelings validated, and in the end what is the big deal if we separate/divorce?
> 
> I am in that same place right now, where I am trying really hard with my brain to convince my heart that I should feel a certain way, and try as I may, it doesn't seem to work. It gets harder the more my husband tries to fix things because I feel guilty. I feel like I should just be happy with what I have, and maybe I am just a spoiled brat, or just so weird that I can't seem to find happiness in all of this. But I have to remind myself and be nice to myself and learn to just be ok with what I feel instead of feeling like it's not ok to want what I want and need what I need.



You too Keenwa, 

Am so glad, ((sorry)) I am not alone with this horrible 'guilt' feelings of listening to only our minds, our eyes... 

Thanks for sharing...

~sammy


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## Keenwa

Mr The Other said:


> I am the bloke, but this all rings many bells, especially this line. Communication and "emotional support" are often excuses people use instead of actually doing things.
> 
> I hope it gets better for you. Despite being male, we are in a similar situation and I also love my spouse - but effort has to be on both sides and actual effort rather than just saying stuff.


Hey Mr. The Other - agreed. TAlking the talk is the easy part, working your brain around all of this stuff is much easier than listening to what your body, heart and every ounce of your being is telling you. It would be easier if he was a schmuck but he's not, and he is actually trying in his way, it's just not what I need. That's what makes it all very sad. I was making the analogy today to someone that it's kind of like when you realize it's time to move out of your parents' house. It's not because you don't love them, it's because in order to grow and continue your life, you need to leave. That's how I feel. He's a kind gentle soul. He deserves happiness and I deserve it as well, and together we are not a good mix as a couple, and maybe even as parents I'm not sure. But on that level we have to make do. 

The effort does have to come on both sides and though we are both trying very hard, in our own ways, it doesn't seem to make much difference. We have made huge leaps and bounds in how we communicate, we are more honest etc. But we seem to fall short. We can't seem to talk about anything other than logistics and superficial things. I feel like I've been pretty honest with what I need out of a partnership and he seems to hear me but doesn't react or change anything. I ask him what he needs and he says he doesn't need anything more than what he has. So as you can imagine each conversation falls like a lead balloon.


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## Keenwa

Fordsvt said:


> I wish Keenwa that you could share better news.
> I was really hoping it would work out for you.
> 
> We are doing better at my end. We did go to Cancun alone for a week at the end of Feb. We've done other things too. It's about being together as partners/mates/friends.
> We have a ways to go I'm sure.


That's great Fordsvt…! I am happy for you! He seems paralyzed in inability to make any decisions or make any invitations to something like this because it might be the "wrong thing"… he has tried a few times but does it kind of like a bulldozer. He doesn't' ask if I'd like to do this or that, he just plans it, and thinks he's "taking initiative"… but if I find myself not able to do it that night, that week, or that day, because of other commitments or work, he gets pissed off or deflated that he has struck zero again. 

It kind of feels like dancing with someone with whom you just can't get the rhythm right and you keep stepping on each others toes, and though you try, and you try, you just never get into a groove.


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## free2beme14

Keenwa, 

I just joined this forum the other day, but I could have written your post. I've been married for almost 12 years, but living the life you described for at least the last 7. We go to MC, we talk through our issues and he resolves to try to do better. That lasts a few weeks or a few days and then we are right back where we were. I've given up the arguing its just too stressful. I'm just done. Sometimes I wonder if there is anything else he could do to surprise me. 

Just wanted you to know you are not alone.


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## Keenwa

free2beme14 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I just joined this forum the other day, but I could have written your post. I've been married for almost 12 years, but living the life you described for at least the last 7. We go to MC, we talk through our issues and he resolves to try to do better. That lasts a few weeks or a few days and then we are right back where we were. I've given up the arguing its just too stressful. I'm just done. Sometimes I wonder if there is anything else he could do to surprise me.
> 
> Just wanted you to know you are not alone.


Hey free2beme,

Well, I want to let you know that sometimes people can surprise you. A year ago, I was walking out the door he asked me to go to MC, and give him some time to turn around. We agreed to give it a year. In that year I saw very little change, just more effort on his part to fix me… or fix "the marriage"… like it was an object which needed fixing. He kept telling me that he didn't feel like he could complain about his life, he had a nice wife, great kids, a house.. etc… and my reply was that "a life" is not an object, it is not an acquisition… and regardless of how great you think your "life" is… when you objectify it, it comes down to how you feel every day, and the truth of that was that I feel pretty crappy every day living this "life". 

So, about 3 weeks ago, talked to him again and told him I was done, that he only seemed to take action when I was up against the wire and completely at the bottom of my barrel. So… we started over again, with the same conversation we'd had a year earlier. I couldn't keep this up, we were wrong for each other, we have tried, it's not working yada yada. He was shocked again, that I had taken the timeline seriously, when he thought of it as more vague. He was surprised that I had looked for places to live and was considering a move out date of June 1. 

Anyhow, my decision to leave catapulted him into action again, and I saw the same patterns re-emerging, he was trying to "fix things"… kind of like he was saying "tell me what to do and I'll do it"… folding laundry, cleaning the house… all the tasks that would really avoid the true problem… that we don't have a relationship anymore… and I found myself very skeptical that anything would change. I mentioned to him I felt like I was living with an addict. Because though he wants to be someone else, he just can't seem to get there and falls back into his habits. 

But this time we went back for MC and there was a change, he finally understood for the first time the difference between talking about how you think you feel, or should feel and talking about how you actually feel. He has changed a lot in the past few weeks, and so i can say that he has surprised me. I am not sure I can say I am hopeful, but I have agreed to give it a go for 2 months to see where it leads, and by that I mean I am going to model the relationship I want and need, I will resist the urge to criticize, to judge and to bring up old wounds, and try to take him as he presents himself to me today. 

Then in two months, I will look back and see if it is working. It is sure hard when you are seething in anger and resentment to see the person in a positive light, and it's taken me a year to get close to releasing all that anger and sense of abandonment. It sure is not an easy road, but I don't think there are any easy roads. At least my day to day life is a more joyful now that he has woken up. I'll keep y'all posted...


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