# Sex during marital disputes



## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

I'd like to hear various opinions regarding married couples that are having problems/disputes that either continue to engage in sex or suspend sexual relations until the dispute/problems subsides. The dispute can range from minor up to and including entertaining divorce/separation. My wife and I are seeing a marriage counselor and he recommended that we have sex at least once a week. Stereotypically, I'm expecting the men to respond that having sex during rough marital times is agreeable while women are likely to favor suspension.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

People are going to disagree from time to time, but we still need intimacy. Not sure how withholding affection or ignoring each others' basic needs could be helpful to repairing a damaged relationship. Rutting like rabbits while ignoring other aspects of the marriage wouldn't be helpful, either, but as long as people are married, seems to me they should occasionally act like they are.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm a guy and while I have no problem separating sex and love (you can have sex without the emotional love connection), I just can't see having sex with someone you are fighting with.

I know others on this forum have mentioned that they continue to have sex while they fight with/separate from/divorce their spouse, but I just couldn't do that. I usually can't stand to be in the same room with them.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't see how purposely stopping sex *because* of other problems can possibly help. I think it turns sex into a reward for good behavior/getting along, as opposed to one of the many ways to connect.
My DH and I have issues frequently that we're working on with a counselor, and we contnue to have sex on our good days, sometimes our so-so days.
I guess the way i see it is that sex is a good thing, among many other good things.
In some ways, I think sex is a sign that things aren't as bad as they could be.
If you still have that good thing, or can, why not enjoy it for what it is---one of the good things in your marriage---and continue to hope the other good things increase?
I'm not saying force yourself if the feeling isn't there...but it is a way to connect, and if you're looking for ways to connect even in a troubled marriage, then do it.
It sounds like your therapist wants you to be intentional about keeping the spark alive as you deal with problems. Sometimes you do have to push yourself on all fronts in the relationship, perhaps even the sexual.
I guess my short answer is: yeah, go for it! Sex could help, but could it really make things worse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Let me clarify: I also strongly connect sex and love/emotion.

When my husband and I are mid-fight, no we don't have sex.

But the longer term high-conflict climate of our relationship hasn't taken away from our sex life.

I agree with unbelievable that we shouldn't keep up the sex and neglect the rest, but when things are at a more even keel, our sex life doesn't suffer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> People are going to disagree from time to time, but we still need intimacy. Not sure how withholding affection or ignoring each others' basic needs could be helpful to repairing a damaged relationship.


I agree with this BUT. When I DH and I are having a dispute it is not that I want to *withhold* the sex, it is that I don't feel the love and thus don't want to show affection I am not feeling. Its not like neener neener if you aren't going to do things my way I am going to punish you. It's like I need to feel like I HAVE love and affection for you before I want to show it to you.

It is not a matter of withholding something I have. I just don't have the intimacy to give. 


That sure has not happened in a long time.



> Rutting like rabbits while ignoring other aspects of the marriage wouldn't be helpful, either, but as long as people are married, seems to me they should occasionally act like they are.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I agree with this BUT. When I DH and I are having a dispute it is not that I want to *withhold* the sex, it is that I don't feel the love and thus don't want to show affection I am not feeling. Its not like neener neener if you aren't going to do things my way I am going to punish you. It's like I need to feel like I HAVE love and affection for you before I want to show it to you.
> 
> It is not a matter of withholding something I have. I just don't have the intimacy to give.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY vthomeschoolmom!!!! To add to the mix I am the spouse bad news is talking about!! Not sure how kosher responding is, but I just had to! I am not na-nan-ing him, I just don't feel the connection! I cannot have sex without an emotional connection! I am not a prostitute or porn star! Show me the love and I'll show you the sex!!!:smthumbup: He didn't mention that when he did show me the love and respect a wife of 16 years deserves...he got sex 3x a day for the entire week!!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Though 2sick, I HAVE just sucked it up and boned him in order to loosen the mood, and get some good willing flowing again. 

Who goes first ... show me the love, and I will show you the sex OR Show me the sex, and I will show you the love... Kinda random.


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## chefmaster (Oct 30, 2010)

Bad News said:


> My wife and I are seeing a marriage counselor and he recommended that we have sex at least once a week.


That's the worst isn't it? It's like someone telling you to remember to change the oil in your car. There is nothing however saying you can't be spontaneous about it or mix things up and get creative.





Bad News said:


> Stereotypically, I'm expecting the men to respond that having sex during rough marital times is agreeable while women are likely to favor suspension.


Women's emotional state Affect their minds while men's emotional state Effect their libidos? Yea I guess you could say that.
If I had a nickel for everytime I heard "No, having sex makes YOU feel better when something isn't going well."


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

2sick said:


> he got sex 3x a day for the entire week!!


Ok, why would I mention it, it sounds too much like bragging eventhough its a slight exageration. Anyway, we've been in counseling for several weeks and had our ups and downs but recently you made it clear that sex is off the table. I was curious how other TAM couples cope with sex amid turbulence.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I HAVE just sucked it up and boned him in order to loosen the mood, and get some good willing flowing again.


Awesome!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

2sick, what is he NOT doing that you feel he is capable of doing/acting - that will allow you to Be with him intimetely? 

I would hope you'll have some rule at least for restricting masterbating during this time. At least for the lower drive spouse. Try to make your spouse your only outlet. Couples shouldn't get in the habit of denying each other long term, this only leads to much resentment and more problems on top of what was.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Couples shouldn't get in the habit of denying each other long term, this only leads to much resentment and more problems on top of what was.


I guess I have a problem with the word "denying" and the word "withholding." (Yes, we have all figured out that I am a language nazi.) If I am out of hot chocolate, am I *denying* my husband hot chocolate when he asks for some? No, I sure as heck am not. I haven't got it. How can I give it to you? Am I withholding the hot chocolate? NO I need to go to the store and get me some hot chocolate before I can give it to you.

You want me to give you the love? The desire? I need to HAVE it before I can give it to you.

The conversation used to get even more confusing because he would deny what he wanted was "just sex." I believed him to be truthful, but what he was saying made no sense. He wants me to give him something I don't have, he doesn't want just sex. But yah mercy sex is gonna be ok after all. It made exactly no sense to me.

Thank God those days are over.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

if I put a plastic bag over your head because I want to kill you or I simply keep a plastic bag over your head because I don't really feel emotionally able to remove it just yet, you are still being suffocated.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> if I put a plastic bag over your head because I want to kill you or I simply keep a plastic bag over your head because I don't really feel emotionally able to remove it just yet, you are still being suffocated.


Don't quite understand what you're getting at unbelievable.:scratchhead: Are you trying to say just have sex even if I'm not aroused just because he's my husband? Sex for me is SOLELY emotional...I can go to orgasm just from the mere sensual touch....I also can go without one even if we go at it for hours (well minutes) I enjoy sex like my husband but think it would be just like masturbating if you don't get the emotion attached to it. I don't believe in withholding sex....I believe in making love!


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

I guess it depends on the fight and what it's about. If we're actively fighting about something, no I won't want to have sex with him. If we're disagreeing about something that can't be immediately resolved, and takes a few days or weeks of discussion to resolve, then although I might find it a little harder to get in the mood, I would still have sex with him. Especially in times like that, I need to feel closer to him, to know that that intimacy and connection is still there. 

I'm not a make up sex kinda person, though. I don't find it a turn on to fight with him and then have sex. I find it more difficult to be open to him sexually if we've been arguing.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Though 2sick, I HAVE just sucked it up and boned him in order to loosen the mood, and get some good willing flowing again.
> 
> Who goes first ... show me the love, and I will show you the sex OR Show me the sex, and I will show you the love... Kinda random.


I agree totally Vthomeschoolmom!!! I have done the same but not when he is being disrespectful and sarcastic. I just can't!!! How can you make love with someone if you wondering if that person truly loves and respects you? When things are even so-so I will "suck it up" just haven't been able muster being a cold fish and just letting have his way not matter what?!?!?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I don't know, how long do these fights, feeling blatenly disrespected and not loved last generally? Do you both engage in the Silent Treatment thing days on end, weeks on end? 

I am one of those people who will fight and not let go of the fighting until it is done/finished, put in the ground, even if we have to stay up all night & discuss- but we always make up, usually lasting no more than a few hours. I have never had a fight with my husband that lasted longer than 1 full day. Never in over 20+ yrs. And always the make up sex follows, the best part of making up. 

I guess I can understand not wanting to do it -while in the midst of anger & alienation, but it would kill me to have that drag on days and days, I can not relate to this at all. 

Others will have better advice than me. My advice is just to resolve. Unselfishly admit to your own faults, your hand in the misunderstanding and offer reconciliation -to get back to harmony, if you both want to save the marraige. Gotta start with someone. Deeply forgive each other & try again to get it right, to please each other. Give her more respect , time & loving attention, helping with the things she wants you too, that is probably all she is desiring, and give him more a warm body to sleep with at night, with all the physical bonding a husband desires to feel from his wife. 

Realize you will both fall back into these pits now & then, but keep climbing out , with you each forgiving along the way. None of us are perfect, but we still love deeply even in the midst of these "storms".


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't know, how long do these fights, feeling blatenly disrespected and not loved last generally? Do you both engage in the Silent Treatment thing days on end, weeks on end?
> 
> I am one of those people who will fight and not let go of the fighting until it is done/finished, put in the ground, even if we have to stay up all night & discuss- but we always make up, usually lasting no more than a few hours. I have never had a fight with my husband that lasted longer than 1 full day. Never in over 20+ yrs. And always the make up sex follows, the best part of making up.


There is a difference between a fight an some more serious kind of problem. The more serious kind of problem, one that can't be just solved, lingers on. Some of these issues just aren't solved in one discussion, can't be. When the problem builds up like plaque in an artery. THAT is when you feel unloved and disrespected.



> I guess I can understand not wanting to do it -while in the midst of anger & alienation, but it would kill me to have that drag on days and days, I can not relate to this at all.


God I can. That was No Fun, I can tell you that.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Personally, I'm inclined to think more like a man here.

Based on my personal situation and the way things have been going in my house - I will take sex anyway I can get it. Whether we are fighting or not. Hell, he can call me a ***** during sex as long as I'm getting some.

Sometimes you have to lower your standards...apparently I'm at the bottom of the barrell at this point.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

2Sick,

I believe there is a time for toe-curling, straight from the heart sex and there is a time to give of yourself simply because your partner needs you. If you don't believe in withholding sex what do you do on those occasions where your emotional state doesn't match your spouse's need? I believe when I got married, my body became the domain of my wife and her's became mine. If I expect her to give herself only to me, I can't very well expect her to be chaste for months on end while I get my head or heart straight. I give my wife whatever I have. If I don't have 100%, I'll give her 100% of what I do have. Can't imagine knowing she needs physical attention and just walking away, telling her "tough noogies! I'll get back to you when my need catches up with yours." If we're on a trip and she gets hungry, I feed her whether I'm hungry or not. I don't continue driving and turn up the stereo to drown out her belly growling.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> If we're on a trip and she gets hungry, I feed her whether I'm hungry or not. I don't continue driving and turn up the stereo to drown out her belly growling.


But do you eat just because she is hungry? Imagine if you had to eat any time she felt like it, and her appetite and tastes were quite different. How much would you enjoy dining then?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> 2Sick,
> 
> I believe there is a time for toe-curling, straight from the heart sex and there is a time to give of yourself simply because your partner needs you.


I agree with this. AND say Bad News, I believe there is a time for doing whatever it is she is asking you to do simply because your partner needs you.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

QUOTE=chefmaster;220818] "No, having sex makes YOU feel better when something isn't going well." [/QUOTE]

I think this is the problem. I am going to make a gross generalization, it's easy for men to ignore and gloss over problems when sex continues. Some men take it for a pass. I'll pose this question - if a man cannot even talk to his wife because he is annoyed or angry with her, what is the mental gymnastics that takes place to get from uncommunicative to having sex? 

I cannot have sex when I have a conflict with my husband and he refuses to even talk. If he turns away from me then I cannot turn towards him when he wants sex. I simply can't. That's when I get the feeling of being used. 

Someone said earlier on this thread that as a man, he can easily separate sex from love. That's the most disturbing aspect of male sexuality, the ease with which they can have sex with no emotional investment. They are not always forthcoming in this respect and they brag about it as well. What effect do you think that has on a woman looking for an emotional connection?

I don't think there are many women who have not had to deal with men who are only interested in getting off and nothing else. Most woman have sensitive radar to detect these men and blow them off. I think the antennae remain in marriage, if he honestly approached with "I just want to get off tonight, I am not liking you very much but I have separated the love - sex thing and I need some relief, are you up for it or not". His wife can choose what she wants to do. 

I don't see that this is manipulation, I see it as a choice, a man can chose to uncouple love from sex, it happens inside and outside of marriage. But, just as woman can choose not to have sex with a man who is not emotionally invested when she is not in a committed relationship, can she not do the same within a relationship?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sisters,

The question is not what I would enjoy, but what my partner needs. Whenever it's a choice between my wife's happiness or mine, I choose her's. If she is of the same opinion, both of us will be well taken care of.


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## chefmaster (Oct 30, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> QUOTE=chefmaster;220818] "No, having sex makes YOU feel better when something isn't going well."
> 
> I think this is the problem.


Her and I joke about it a lot, it's something that's said when she's having other problems and I'm trying to get into her pants. 

I was trying to make the point that sex really isn't a problem-solver for some women like it is for some men.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Having sex isn't a problem-solver but refusing to have sex is a problem creator. If a marriage already is stressed, why add another problem into the mix?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Having sex isn't a problem-solver but refusing to have sex is a problem creator. If a marriage already is stressed, why add another problem into the mix?


For me, being pressured into sex that I did not feel, trying to make hot chocolate when there was none in the pantry, added a LOT of resentment. So she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

I am flummoxed about the continued insistence that there is a withholding, a denying, a "refusing". I think some people aren't reading the whole thread!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> 2Sick,
> 
> I believe there is a time for toe-curling, straight from the heart sex and there is a time to give of yourself simply because your partner needs you. If you don't believe in withholding sex what do you do on those occasions where your emotional state doesn't match your spouse's need? I believe when I got married, my body became the domain of my wife and her's became mine. If I expect her to give herself only to me, I can't very well expect her to be chaste for months on end while I get my head or heart straight. I give my wife whatever I have. If I don't have 100%, I'll give her 100% of what I do have. Can't imagine knowing she needs physical attention and just walking away, telling her "tough noogies! I'll get back to you when my need catches up with yours." If we're on a trip and she gets hungry, I feed her whether I'm hungry or not. I don't continue driving and turn up the stereo to drown out her belly growling.


Unbelievable.... that comment IS unbelievable!!! My body will ALWAYS be my body and same for my husband! I do believe that when you get married you become half of a whole and you are emotionally connected and should share in each other's lives. 

We have never gone more than a week (minus that time of the month...or child birth) with out being intimate. Nonetheless, I don't see how you can compare "tough noogies"/holding out with being emotionally attached when making love!!! dear goodness I have had my share of "friends" but never married them!!!! When I got married I believed that it was for life and with the person I wanted to share my life with....NOT just my body!!! By having sex just because my husband has needs completely overlooks my needs for compassion...and I can't do that!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> But do you eat just because she is hungry? Imagine if you had to eat any time she felt like it, and her appetite and tastes were quite different. How much would you enjoy dining then?


Couldn't have said it better!!!!!:smthumbup:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

2Sick,

If you are having sex with your husband once a week, you're hardly denying or withholding, so my post doesn't apply to you. I'm talking about those who willfully deny their spouse weeks, months, and years at a time. Those people are just plain abusive. They aren't willing to resuscitate their marriage but they won't put a bullet in it, either.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Catherine602, eloquently said.... How do you work around it?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> 2Sick,
> 
> If you are having sex with your husband once a week, you're hardly denying or withholding, so my post doesn't apply to you. I'm talking about those who willfully deny their spouse weeks, months, and years at a time. Those people are just plain abusive. They aren't willing to resuscitate their marriage but they won't put a bullet in it, either.


Unbelievable this post Is about me (and my husband Bad News)!!!:scratchhead: That is why I wanted to make it clear that just because you don't have sex EVERYTIME your partner wants is whether you're mad or not is COMPLETELY wrong (at least for me) Once bad new actually shows compassion and opens communication I might actually FEEL sensual and WANT to be intimate with him too. Sex is NOT love and never will be...Yes it relieves lots of pressure but pressuring to have sex can create barriers.
Thanks for your input...please continue!!!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

This is something which really interests me as me and my OH both have different feelings on it.

I am in the camp of I cannot give myself to him when we are arguing. I lose the interest, the desire to share that with him; I think how can I share something so intimate with him, something I wouldn't share with anyone else in the world, if he can't take the time to listen to me? And I don't mean that in a 'punishment' kind of way, more like my barriers go up as a protective mechanism. And when I have been persuaded into it in the past, it's almost like an out of body experience, quite empty, as I don't get that connection I would usually feel.

He on the other hand thinks sex is the way to reconnect. If we've been angry, falling out, and not resolving things, have bad feeling, he thinks that sex is like the superglue that will bind us back together. I understand where he is coming from; but to me that is him absolving himself of responsibility outside the bedroom to work together to solve whatever the problem is.

If he's been angry with me, he finds it easy to look past that and work through it AFTER sex whereas I would need to do that before I could even think about it.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Let's see if i can understand this. 

On one hand we have a spouse who probably feels loved and appreciated through sex. Lack of sex could make that person unhappy, distant, unwilling to give (because he/she feels he/she isn't receiving what makes him/her happy). 

On the other hand we have the partner who doesn't feel loved/safe/appreciated outside the bedroom hence the sex drive (or at least the desire for that person) plummets until the issues are resolved. 

If i understood things right, may i call this a vicious circle? Some people will want sex when they are fighting because they already feel emotionally distant because of the fight and see sex as a way of making up and re-connecting (hence the term "make up sex"). Others are on the exact opposite end and would probably say: " I usually can't stand to be in the same room with them" like someone did above. 

*@2Sick* : It's clear what Bad News wants. He wants sex. The lack of it will definitely make him unhappy. Possibly as unhappy as you are when you don't feel appreciated and loved. It's important in my opinion that you understand this because his way of behaving towards you when he's angry because of lack of sex may be "disrespectful and sarcastic" or at least a bit distant. He may have trouble opening up because of lack of sex just as you may have trouble feeling in the mood and giving sex when you don't get the emotional connection you need. Hope this makes sense. Bad News can either confirm this or say it's not the case. I'm not really a mind reader, i can just assume. 

Basically you've both established that you're missing something you need and you're sort of waiting for the other person to give before you do. 

"I don't think there are many women who have not had to deal with men who are only interested in getting off and nothing else."

I'm not a guy but i'm not extremely sure what you said is accurate. Ever think that when in a rough patch, men who aren't naturally inclined to "have a talk, communicate and share their feelings" want to make peace and make up through something where they can share their emotion freely (sex) and let their body do the talking for them? Just saying. People express themselves in different ways. 

I can only talk about myself here. I'm generally bad with words when in a conflict. If we talk about it i'll tend to bottle up, not find the right words, say things i didn't think through properly. Whenever we have a fight my natural instinct is to want sex to GET CLOSER. To tell him through the love and affection i put into sex that i want to make peace. That's how i see it. Having sex with my husband and wanting it is my way of trying to get us closer and more connected, oddly enough, on an emotional level. That's MY WAY of communicating my love and support in a time when we're arguing. This makes me wonder, any men feel this way or do you just want a quick release? 

"Once bad new actually shows compassion and opens communication I might actually FEEL sensual and WANT to be intimate with him too."

I get this. If you don't feel right, you don't get in the mood. If you're emotionally disconnected being forced into sex will only make you feel more resentful. You might even feel like you're giving more while he's only focused on taking. Is this the way you think about the whole thing?

I also have the feeling that your husband may be thinking around the same lines "if she's depriving me of sex she clearly doesn't love me and i don't want to open up to someone who doesn't love me or show me compassion by understanding my needs". 

This is not an attack to you in any way. I personally think YOU BOTH are right but neither of you has found a way to compromise so that both your needs are satisfied. 

"Sex is NOT love and never will be" 

for some people it is, for some people it isn't. But let me tell you this, the lack of sex is often perceived by people as "lack of love". Look through the sex section on this forum and you'll see just how unloved most people whose spouses deny them sex are. Both men and women have these problems. They don't come here yelling that they want "nookie". In fact, the lack of sex actually gets them to the point where they don't feel like they have exactly what you're looking for. An emotional connection. They want to recapture that emotional connection through sex. 

Sadly their need conflicts with the need of their spouse. Who knows, they both might be looking exactly for that mythical "emotional connection" all people are talking about but in different ways. 

Just take some time to spell those needs both of you have with big, clear words. If you'd like, do it on this forum. There must be a way for both of you to get your needs met. You can both start giving at the same time so you won't even have to think "why do i have to give first". 

I'm far from an expert in any matter. This is just how i feel about your situation. Hope it helps you at least realize what you both want from one another.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Please let me clarify, I’m not referring to sex for the sake of getting off- I know how to take matters in to my own hands, and 2sick would confirm that I am quite good at it. I am however, referring to the lust component that each spouse has, or had at one time for each other. During disputes, feelings get bruised and someone is usually more hurt and upset than the other (usually 2sick). We have some long-standing disputes that were trying to resolve, but I still want to enjoy sex with my wife that masturbation can’t satisfy, and I want her to enjoy it as well, more importantly I want to feel that she desires me, if not fully on an emotional level then on a some physical level. She has said that sex for her now is completely emotional and that my appearance or sex appeal mattered before we married and not so much now, go figure.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Please let me clarify, I’m not referring to sex for the sake of getting off- I know how to take matters in to my own hands, and 2sick would confirm that I am quite good at it. I am however, referring to the lust component that each spouse has, or had at one time for each other. During disputes, feelings get bruised and someone is usually more hurt and upset than the other (usually 2sick). We have some long-standing disputes that were trying to resolve, but I still want to enjoy sex with my wife that masturbation can’t satisfy, and I want her to enjoy it as well, more importantly I want to feel that she desires me, if not fully on an emotional level then on a some physical level. She has said that sex for her now is completely emotional and that my appearance or sex appeal mattered before we married and not so much now, go figure.


Keep the faith. For me, that changed BACK once our underlying disputes were sorted out. Hopefully that will be the case for you too. 

Have you guys read Passionate Marriage? Good book.


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## julia71 (Oct 25, 2010)

Just to interject - there ARE marital situations in which all sex STOPS - 100% - COMPLETELY - until other issues are sorted out. No matter how long that may take. No ifs, ands or buts. Amazingly sex becomes really low on the list of importance when certain things happen in your marriage.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Nekko said:


> I get this. If you don't feel right, you don't get in the mood. If you're emotionally disconnected being forced into sex will only make you feel more resentful. You might even feel like you're giving more while he's only focused on taking. Is this the way you think about the whole thing?


I'm not forcing or coercing, I was ,however, talking about sex and things I wanted to do, eventhough there were unresoved issues at hand. It's not like we don't speak to each other, at the time we were playing a video game together!


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Have you guys read Passionate Marriage? Good book.


No but we've read "Getting the love you want" and are reading "Why Marriages Succeed or Fail…and How You Can Make Yours Last"


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News, can you explain something for me? You say you want her to desire you, physically if not emotionally right now since the emotions are obviously out of whack. But when I said I sometimes suck it up and just do it, wasn't it you that replied "awesome?" How is closing the eyes and biting the bullet desiring? In my mind, it is a pity f*** though for good motives. Is that what you want? 

I suspect if I shared that that was what I was doing back then that he would be bummed out or even disgusted. All's well that ends well...


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Bad News said:


> I'm not forcing or coercing, I was ,however, talking about sex and things I wanted to do, eventhough there were unresoved issues at hand. It's not like we don't speak to each other, at the time we were playing a video game together!


I'm not saying you were. I'm saying she may see it that way, as if she has to force herself to have sex even though she isn't in the mood, just to please you. I'm not even sure if she feels that way. That's why i ended it with a question. 

I said that based on this comment


> By having sex just because my husband has needs completely overlooks my needs for compassion...and I can't do that!


. 


If i understood your wife wrong, i apologize. As for you, i understand your standpoint decently well. I'm on the same side of the fence (those who want more sex). Is it safe to say at this point that what both of you have in common is that you don't feel "valued" by the other?


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Bad News, can you explain something for me? You say you want her to desire you, physically if not emotionally right now since the emotions are obviously out of whack. But when I said I sometimes suck it up and just do it, wasn't it you that replied "awesome?" How is closing the eyes and biting the bullet desiring? In my mind, it is a pity f*** though for good motives. Is that what you want?
> 
> I suspect if I shared that that was what I was doing back then that he would be bummed out or even disgusted. All's well that ends well...


That's easy, what I truly want versus what I'm willing to take don't have to coincide. If 2sick is serving up pitty p***y then I'm eating. Awesome was describing the content as well as the colorfully worded comment.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News said:


> That's easy, what I truly want versus what I'm willing to take don't have to coincide. If 2sick is serving up pitty p***y then I'm eating. Awesome was describing the content as well as the colorfully worded comment.


Well hot damn, you just explained something that has been baffling me forever. Thanks for that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

2sick said:


> Catherine602, eloquently said.... How do you work around it?


I work really hard to get things resolved ASAP and I let him know how I feel. I have a new understanding of why he is the way he is and I no longer misinterpret his behavior towards me. I also love and respect him and know that he feels responsible for my happiness. That is quite a burden, I did not understand before. I also understand how important our sexually connection is to him in an emotional sense and is central to him feeling love from me. So I do not let myself get into an emotional state that is headed towards no sex. Although it does happen, it does not happen often and not for weeks just days and even that is hard for him. 

A big problem in our relationship in the past was that he would suddenly disengage when we were having an argument. I found that infuriating because I misinterpreted what it meant. I thought he was disrespecting me but instead it was that he felt responsible for my happiness and felt overwhelmed when he could not solve a problem quickly and make me happy again. I don't mean to make him out to be a simpleton, he is very smart but that's the way he thinks in our relationship. At these times I would disengage from him too, he would come to me for reassurance that I still loved him (want sex) even though he needed time to figure out how to make me happy again and I could not have sex with him. When this was all happening, I did not understand it like I am stating here. I feel very sad about not understanding but glad I do now. 

I think that's why men are saying that they feel they are being punished. If there is misinterpretation of motives and behavior, people act on their interpretation not the reality. If I understood my husband better, we would not have gone thru 2 very unhappy and painful years. 

We both understand each other better - he try's really hard to stay engaged even when I need to talk about things that make me unhappy; I try not to overwhelm him and stop the discussion when I see the signs that he is struggling to stay and talk; I let him know that I do not expect him to solve my problems that it is an impossible task; he try's to understand that when I disengage it is not because I don't love him but I need time to get back to a feeling of being heard and understood. I also let him know I don't want him to do exactly what I want but to communicate about a compromise that will work for both of us and not stay silent. 

I wrote in other post about my epiphany, I did not realize the emotional toll on my husband of a sexual frequency that was intolerable to him. In essence, I did not think men had any emotions connected with sex and it was all release and fun for them. I discovered otherwise in my search for solutions to my marital problems. I read books joined forums and wrote about my thoughts. 

I have to say to women, - learn what sex means to men, read books and read posts from men expressing their pain and bewilderment. With so much info about the true nature of the sexuality of men who have committed to one woman, there is no excuse for a lack of understanding. I think the burden of understanding does fall to the woman only because men are less likely to read and to effect changes or even to understand themselves. I think some of the woman on this thread have said it very well, they continue to have sex out of love and because they know what it means to their husbands.

This does not apply to all men. Some of the men I read about seem selfish, entitled, demanding, vindictive, critical, spiteful, misogynous - except for sex, threaten their wives with cheating, continue to do things like stay in contact with old girl friends or maintain female friendship even though it bothers their wives and drink, gamble, play videos, ignore their wives and many other very negative attributes. Yet, they blame their wives for not having sex with them. :scratchhead: I wonder how they imagine anyone would want to stay in the same house with them let alone want to be touched by them. 

In my opinion, these are not the men a woman who is unlucky to have as a husband needs to accommodate. If they have just pity sex with these men, its probably more than they deserve but, at lest it gets them off their wives back. 

There are other men who are obviously good and it is troubling that their wives think that sex is not important in a marriage. To do that to a good man is to me unconscionable but it is done out of ignorance on the part of the women. 

I am lucky to be married to a very good man. He is unselfish, responsible, cares for his family, works hard and is successful, respects me, does not contact old girlfriends on facebook, does not have secrete phones or profiles on dating sites (as far as I know), does not play video games in lieu of time with family, is not addicted to porn, does not have female friends, never calls me names, has never been critical of me. He does yell, slam doors, go out and mow the lawn in the middle of a fight, looks at every basketball, football game in the country, does not cook, or clean but will do the laundry and shopping. 

Women need to try to understand men, don't let your daughters grow up believing in fairy tales, teach them about real men, we will all be much happier. I am concentrating on how a woman can change and help her husband change because that has been my experience. Not letting men off the hook here, many of the comments by men on this thread shows a woeful ignorance of the inner workings of woman. The men who think that a woman should have sex with a man no matter how unhappy she is, are clueless. That is male sexuality not sexuality in a couple. When you are in a couple, you have to expect the sexuality to be a blend of male and female sexuality, not one over the other. Sex in marriage is different than either sex would call ideally suited to them. 

I think men and woman are unrealistic when it comes to sex in long-term relationships - the expectations seem to be based on fiction, pop culture, and porn and not the blending of the natures of the two people in the relationship. If a man expects the good girl wife he married to morph into a living breathing porn performer, he is crazy.

I hope this long post answers your question. The short answer is I understand my husband now and I don't interpret his behavior negatively but in terms of how it effects me and I let him know how I feel and ask him for help and understanding.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Bad News said:


> I'd like to hear various opinions regarding married couples that are having problems/disputes that either continue to engage in sex or suspend sexual relations until the dispute/problems subsides. The dispute can range from minor up to and including entertaining divorce/separation. My wife and I are seeing a marriage counselor and he recommended that we have sex at least once a week. Stereotypically, I'm expecting the men to respond that having sex during rough marital times is agreeable while women are likely to favor suspension.


I must be a man then.  Marital issues need to be discussed and resolved, but not to the detriment of a satisfying sex life.
I don't believe in withholding sex because of a disagreement. It just fosters further anger and resentment.

It's very sad that a MC has to recommend that you have sex once a week. I hope that your marriage becomes more passionate.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

> Once bad new actually shows compassion and opens communication I might actually FEEL sensual and WANT to be intimate with him too.


The interesting point about this comment - is it is the exact same comment and dynamic that is between pretty much every male and female couple. It's the chicken and the egg. I have been fighting this as well.

The simple fact is women and men are different. He needs the sexual affection in order to respect and show the love you want. You need him to respect and show his love and affection before you want to have sex.

You guys will go round and round forever building nothing in your marriage but frustration and resentment until you both realize that you are different from each other and try to meet in the middle. Marriage is compromise, sacrifice and putting your partner ahead of yourself.

Neither of you are going to get EXACTLY what you want. But you may be able to meet in the middle and get to where you are both getting MOSTLY what you want. From there you maybe even able to refine it even closer and closer.

But for now, One of you is going to have to try to be a LITTLE more sexual in good faith - and simutaneously the other is going to have to be more compassionate and affectionate on the outside regardless. Fake it til you make it.

And each of you may need to eggagerate these things at first as you are both in a cycle right now of expecting the worst and your looking for points to be annoyed about rather than points to be happy about. Target what each other needs are and eggagerate them so they are more obvious than the things that are frustrating you.

Remember Albert Ensteins Quote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Please let me clarify, I’m not referring to sex for the sake of getting off- I know how to take matters in to my own hands, and 2sick would confirm that I am quite good at it. I am however, referring to the lust component that each spouse has, or had at one time for each other. During disputes, feelings get bruised and someone is usually more hurt and upset than the other (usually 2sick). We have some long-standing disputes that were trying to resolve, but I still want to enjoy sex with my wife that masturbation can’t satisfy, and I want her to enjoy it as well, more importantly I want to feel that she desires me, if not fully on an emotional level then on a some physical level. She has said that sex for her now is completely emotional and that my appearance or sex appeal mattered before we married and not so much now, go figure.


Bad news: Your comment isn't completely honest...If I recall you said "things would be better if you would just bend over". Whenever you talk about sex (not making love) it IS totally physical. When we have an emotional connection we have had some BEAUTIFUL and FREAKY interactions!!! And to be honest even before we were married I believed love making to be a completely emotional connections...albeit I have had purely physical relations with men (but NEVER with you) and that is why I didn't marry those men (extremely handsome/well built/ or even Extremely powerful/wealthy men) I had mad passionate relations with you when you were out of shape and 240 lbs and when you were a 160 lb stick. It's the person on the inside that turns me on....always has been...always will. I think that that is the problem....without the connection there is no spark! We actually have to learn to make the connection (and not sexually!!!!) Yes sex is a connection but what happens if you're in a horrible accident and could never have sex again....Is the marriage over?!?!? How would you connect then?!?!?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News said:


> That's easy, what I truly want versus what I'm willing to take don't have to coincide. If 2sick is serving up pitty p***y then I'm eating. Awesome was describing the content as well as the colorfully worded comment.


Wait. I am confused again. How is pity sex not just masturbating into her body? How is that not just getting off?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

2sick - you are doing a really good job of explaing how YOU feel and what YOU need and what YOU like. And they are all valid and important comments that your husband needs to hear. However, you have to realize that HE is not YOU. And acknowledge that how he works, and what HE needs, and HOW he needs it are just as important as your thoughts and needs. Again - you guys need to work to meet in the middle.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> I'm not forcing or coercing, I was ,however, talking about sex and things I wanted to do, eventhough there were unresoved issues at hand. It's not like we don't speak to each other, at the time we were playing a video game together!


Nekko, you are right, there is resentment! I feel that Bad News IS overlooking the underlying issues. Even though there is no physical forcing, honestly, after 16 years of marriage, even mere looks are enough to be deemed pushing the issue!! Yes we were playing a video game together....but that for me was to try to not want to kick him out of the house!!! By him making sexual comments just made it worse. I would love to feel sexually attracted to him (not that he is not PHYSICALLY HOT!!!!) I NEED the connection to make that happen...I don't know if we know how to do that anymore....That is one of our main problems!!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> That's easy, what I truly want versus what I'm willing to take don't have to coincide. If 2sick is serving up pitty p***y then I'm eating. Awesome was describing the content as well as the colorfully worded comment.


Sad to hear that!!! What do you truly want?!?!?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I am curious 2sick. I DO feel your situation. I find it hard to understand the PoV that I hear from men on this topic. It is hard for me to understand what YOU are lacking. It would be easy if you were able to say I feel disrespected and unloved when you X... whatever X is. Maybe you have said that to him. And I would say ... DUH Bad News just do X. But I don't understand what it is you need, so there I cannot go.

I remember back when we had our first baby. There was definitely some built up resentment on both sides. Despite the fact that DH wanted a baby too, he resented the fact that the person that used to be his (me) now belonged to this wailing bit of poo. I resented that he seemed to be so negative and seemingly unwilling to be helpful with our new family scene. I tore all the way to Christmas during the delivery and used that as an excuse for the full recommended recovery and way beyond.

No I did not feel loving and wanting him. Blech. He did not feel particularly loving toward me. There was no intimacy (sex, whatever. These words seem to mean such incomprehensibly different things to many men and women). I decided to do SOMETHING to change up the dynamic. Doing what we were doing wasn't working! I guess I plastered a smile on my face, forced a dazzle in my eyes and pretended. I did not just pretend to HIM. I tried to pretend to me. I remembered all the things about him that I found attractive. 

I guess would you be able to try that?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Catherine602 That is the marriage I am looking for!!! That was the marriage I had! I can only hope that my husband can understand that Yes facebook does hurt, especially when you friend women you went to school with that you don't even remember.... and Yes it hurts when you tell half truths!!! When you go unappreciated even after trying so hard to please you get to the point where you don't want to try anymore!!! I would love to be able to just talk about EVERYTHING, good, bad, trivial, or life changing with my husband but he deems it intrusive and controlling?!?!? so he gives me half truths or nothing and then wonders why I can't give him "the bend over the sofa treatment" (which he did get when we were talking!!!) thanks for your LONG post


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> Having sex isn't a problem-solver but refusing to have sex is a problem creator. If a marriage already is stressed, why add another problem into the mix?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

2sick said:


> I have had purely physical relations with men (but NEVER with you) and that is why I didn't marry those men (extremely handsome/well built/ or even Extremely powerful/wealthy men) I had mad passionate relations with you when you were out of shape and 240 lbs and when you were a 160 lb stick.


Thanks for the ego boost, seeing how my ego is somewhat linked to my appearance, sense of power and net worth.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> 2sick - you are doing a really good job of explaing how YOU feel and what YOU need and what YOU like. And they are all valid and important comments that your husband needs to hear. However, you have to realize that HE is not YOU. And acknowledge that how he works, and what HE needs, and HOW he needs it are just as important as your thoughts and needs. Again - you guys need to work to meet in the middle.


 Eagleclaw: I actually had been in tune with his needs and was creative with trying to keep things sizzling.... When the kids had afternoon activities... I greeted him at the door with only my heels on (reminding him that that was what we did when we were just married)... another time, I woke him up at 2:30 am for a quicky....and the list goes on...I am FULLY aware of my husband's sexual appetite and don't think it could ever truly be quenched!!! I am just tired of ALWAYS being the one to put what I want aside so he can get what he wants (SEX!!!)

I have compromised for so long, even just lying there sometimes...while he seem oblivious that there is no connection. I don't know what else to do?!?!?!?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> Catherine602 That is the marriage I am looking for!!! That was the marriage I had! I can only hope that my husband can understand that Yes facebook does hurt, especially when you friend women you went to school with that you don't even remember.... and Yes it hurts when you tell half truths!!! When you go unappreciated even after trying so hard to please you get to the point where you don't want to try anymore!!! I would love to be able to just talk about EVERYTHING, good, bad, trivial, or life changing with my husband but he deems it intrusive and controlling?!?!? so he gives me half truths or nothing and then wonders why I can't give him "the bend over the sofa treatment" (which he did get when we were talking!!!) thanks for your LONG post


2sick I so hear you. Again BUT. I CAN also see his PoV. I can't see how it is controlling to discuss things. But I know there was a time when I would ask my husband to do things that I felt were normal that he felt were controlling. It WAS befriending (pre-facebook this would have been email) old gfs.It was also the freedom to do the things he wanted to do. 

When he would tell me things, half the time I would criticize it. She emailed you again??!! Now where is it writ that because *I* view(ed) speaking to ex-gfs as bad, HE views it that way too? Who says MY way is RIGHT? He heard DAMN you messed up AGAIN. Of COURSE he did not want to tell me the truth. He got CRITICIZED for the truth. 

I guess... can you try and take a look at HIS PoV and see if ... from it ARE you controlling?

And Bad News. Ditch the former girlfriends on Facebook. Sheesh. You may not agree. But that one strikes me as a no-brainer.

Anyway. Sounds like you guys have some issues to resolve. Considered counseling?

You both sound like such nice people. I sure do hope your issues get worked out!


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Wait. I am confused again. How is pity sex not just masturbating into her body? How is that not just getting off?


Cause it takes two to tango. It's at least concievalbe that both could enjoy the sex, although not likely. It's also sweet when your spouse is saying "have at it baby" as a participant, albeit not as enthusiastic as one might want.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

In my personal experience and based on what I hear from other women, the sex is generally the LAST thing to go--women try to get their needs met, they keep loving and caring about their husbands so they keep having sex, and it is only when resentment from relatively long-standing issues arises that the women will find sex with their spouse to be unappealing or worse. 

Many men will ignore women's needs UNTIL the sex stops, and then the man will complain that she is "withholding" sex. I'd like to hear from wives who turned away sexually at the very first sign of discord--as their FIRST effort to get their h to meet some of their needs. I think you would find this is quite rare.

In this particular case, what are the issues and how long have they been issues for either of you? Did w request changes before growing unhappy (ie, "I'd really appreciate it if you'd put the toilet lid down at night so I won't fall in.) Did w stop having sex at the first hint of trouble, or did issues grow more problemmatic b/c her requests, suggestions, needs expressed in the course of the relationship went unheeded? (ie, "I'm so tired of falling through that damn toilet and I've asked you a dozen times") Be sure to subsitute your real issue(s) for the toilet seat one; I'm just trying to make a point and to clarify. 

IF a man has ignored previously expressed wishes/needs/desires/concerns, whatever, and finds his wife has grown unhappy/resentful and the sex spigot is turned off, then he pretty much has no right to blame HER. He had complete control of the outcome early on and it really should be no surprise that she does not find him sexually appealing after he has ignored her concerns.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Thanks for the ego boost, seeing how my ego is somewhat linked to my appearance, sense of power and net worth.



Although I sense sarcasm....I was trying to boost your ego?!?!?!? If you didn't see that, I guess that is part of the problem. What I was saying was you turned me on no matter what your physical appearance... Yes you are GREAT looking but to me it doesn't matter if you are ugly inside. How hot you are on the outside plays such a small role in how sexy you are!?!?!? I guess that's why I get upset with you when you say you are pretty but.... you would be a knock out if you lost 20 lbs!!!! I feel if I get in an accident or if my MS worsens you wouldn't want to be here?!?!? For me the physical body doesn't mean a thing...I would love you the same no matter what!!!


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

So she has been trying to change your behavior, BN, for a while, and only now that it is affecting your sex life are you showing any interest in potentially changing? And only in changing IF she does it all your way? 

Sounds like you had a lot of chances to keep it from getting to this point, and now you are whining that "she started it" by pulling away sexually. Really? She was totally happy and expressed no discontent until one day she woke up and out of nowhere said, "you need to do XYZ and I won't be able to tolerate sex with you until you do these things?"

Or did you just ignore/resist her point of view and needs until it affected your sex life?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

2sick said:


> Eagleclaw: I actually had been in tune with his needs and was creative with trying to keep things sizzling.... When the kids had afternoon activities... I greeted him at the door with only my heels on (reminding him that that was what we did when we were just married)... another time, I woke him up at 2:30 am for a quicky....and the list goes on...I am FULLY aware of my husband's sexual appetite and don't think it could ever truly be quenched!!! I am just tired of ALWAYS being the one to put what I want aside so he can get what he wants (SEX!!!)
> 
> I have compromised for so long, even just lying there sometimes...while he seem oblivious that there is no connection. I don't know what else to do?!?!?!?


It is good that you have done these things. Hopefully he is making a similar effort. But you need to continue in this regard if you want to salvage this relationship. The minute you quit trying is the minute your marriage becomes unrepairable, resentment starts building and you start to slide down the slippery slope of demise. If you done, tell him your done. If your not, lead by example. Show him what you want/need from him by giving it to him. (BTW - I would give him the exact same advice)

A couple of things that jump out at me though. 1) even just lying there sometimes????????? Believe me, he noticed. And that is so not a good feeling. Don't think that doesn't impose an emotional toll on the marriage.

2) You frame it like the sex is for HIM. It's HIS enjoyment. It's what you do for HIM. You are giving HIM sex. No No No. It's for both of you. YOU need to want sex. YOU need to want sex from him. It's a shared activity for the benefit of both of you. You need to start thinking of it that way. Even go so far as demanding what you need from it and turn the tables around. Get it in your head that it something you want, you need and you deserve from this marriage.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I guess... can you try and take a look at HIS PoV and see if ... from it ARE you controlling?
> 
> And Bad News. Ditch the former girlfriends on Facebook. Sheesh. You may not agree. But that one strikes me as a no-brainer.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. Yes we're in counseling, and yeah we're nice people and we make an awesome couple!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> In my personal experience and based on what I hear from other women, the sex is generally the LAST thing to go--women try to get their needs met, they keep loving and caring about their husbands so they keep having sex, and it is only when resentment from relatively long-standing issues arises that the women will find sex with their spouse to be unappealing or worse.


:iagree:



> Many men will ignore women's needs UNTIL the sex stops, and then the man will complain that she is "withholding" sex.


I think *ignore* is a strong and inaccurate word. I think that there really IS a big understanding gap. I think too often, BOTH sides get stuck in a right fight. 

Let's take an example from my past. DH had a former girlfriend with whom he was friends. From his standpoint, they were FRIENDS. The romance ship, such as it had been, had completely sailed. She was a lesbian for heaven's sake! When I said it made me jealous and was hurtful to me, he was genuinely able to grasp hurt but was unable to grasp WHY. When I asked him to just stop contacting her anyway, he would for a while, then he would become resentful that I was trying to tell him what to do based on MY version of right when my version of right was no more right than his version.

(Side note, in my opinion if either party is all concerned about their partner's friendships with members of the opposite sex, barring any risky business, the vast majority of time it is due to insecurity and lack of self esteem. I think the better solution is to learn TRUST the spouse and lose the insecurity and need to have your spouse prove devotion through hoop jumping. I know this is different than many people think.)

So invariably he would resume contact because he resented my interference.

So you have consequences resulting from a right fight. The consequences are, I feel he is being hurtful and untruthful to me in his relationships with friends. He thinks he cannot safely be honest with me because I will freak every time he does.

So who is RIGHT? SHOULD a person have friends of the opposite sex? SHOULD a husband do what a wife asks every time she feels "hurt?" In my book the former is irrelevant. And the answer to the latter is NO. That is an unrealistic expectation.

But to your main point I agree. Usually things have been spiraling downhill for a while before sex was removed from the equation.



> I'd like to hear from wives who turned away sexually at the very first sign of discord--as their FIRST effort to get their h to meet some of their needs. I think you would find this is quite rare.
> 
> In this particular case, what are the issues and how long have they been issues for either of you? Did w request changes before growing unhappy (ie, "I'd really appreciate it if you'd put the toilet lid down at night so I won't fall in.)


Brings up a new and interesting questions. Just because a spouse says that they "need" something does that mean that 
1. they really do and
2. the spouse needs to do it, especially when it interferes with their integrity as I feel is the case when one spouse feels that they are being controlled by the other. (Thinking too of the poster whose spouse "needs" her to go to the pastor he has hand picked to get her to do what he wants in the marriage for example)

Anyway... 





> IF a man has ignored previously expressed wishes/needs/desires/concerns, whatever,


What does it mean to ignore? Is ignore the same as fail to just give in? 

I know I used to think my husband was "ignoring" my concerns when in fact he was trying to communicate with me limit setting behavior. No those "needs" are not "needs" I am willing to meet. How do we move forward so that we both can be happy in that situation? ...


I think this is a GOOD DEAL more complicated than it looks at first blush.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> 2sick I so hear you. Again BUT. I CAN also see his PoV. I can't see how it is controlling to discuss things. But I know there was a time when I would ask my husband to do things that I felt were normal that he felt were controlling. It WAS befriending (pre-facebook this would have been email) old gfs.It was also the freedom to do the things he wanted to do.
> 
> When he would tell me things, half the time I would criticize it. She emailed you again??!! Now where is it writ that because *I* view(ed) speaking to ex-gfs as bad, HE views it that way too? Who says MY way is RIGHT? He heard DAMN you messed up AGAIN. Of COURSE he did not want to tell me the truth. He got CRITICIZED for the truth.
> 
> vthomeschoolmom; I must admit that I do roll my eyes when has friended another woman (even if she is married with kids) I don't think it's controlling to want your spouse to stay away from other women....(not people they have actually been friends with) The last counselor we say said to drop facebook because all it is is a channel for temptation! I compromised and we agreed to only do it at home together (he broke that promise and did it at work and requested a girl to "contact him privately on a secured email) Although it was all innocent ( I met the woman and read the emails) it was hurtful and completely annihilated any trust I had built up for him. Things like this are what's breaking up our marriage. Yes it's innocent but UNBELIEVABLY sleezy and underhanded. It when things like that come up I don't have sex with him and actually just want to leave!! I stop and compromise again and hope it ends....needless to say half truths still pop up!!! Don't know if I can continue to compromise!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

You say it was all innocent - however doing something/anything behind your back and maintaining any sort of relationship with the opposite sex behind your back and hidden for whatever purposes is WRONG and counter productive to everything that a marriage should be. It would be one thing to say "this a friend and I will remain friends with them". That would be his boundry to enforce if it was that important to him and yet he would be keeping it above board and honest with you. 

But to hide it in secrecy is very wrong. Your feelings, and lack thereof would be very understandable. However, at some point he would need to awknowledge his mistake, apologize for it and promise not to repeat it - and then you BOTH would need to move on. And by move on, I mean act in ways that improve the relationship. Resentment must fall away.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> vthomeschoolmom; I must admit that I do roll my eyes when has friended another woman (even if she is married with kids) I don't think it's controlling to want your spouse to stay away from other women....(not people they have actually been friends with) The last counselor we say said to drop facebook because all it is is a channel for temptation!


Well are you going to right fight about it? I mean HE thinks its controlling. Do you want to care about who is right or do you want to be happy? 

I think the channel for temptation thing is whooey, if you want to know the truth. You can't tempt the happy. If he is trustworthy, can you trust him? 



> I compromised and we agreed to only do it at home together (he broke that promise and did it at work and requested a girl to "contact him privately on a secured email)


Well that is ****ty. 



> Although it was all innocent ( I met the woman and read the emails) it was hurtful and completely annihilated any trust I had built up for him. Things like this are what's breaking up our marriage.
> 
> Yes it's innocent but UNBELIEVABLY sleezy and underhanded. It when things like that come up I don't have sex with him and actually just want to leave!! I stop and compromise again and hope it ends....needless to say half truths still pop up!!! Don't know if I can continue to compromise!


I am trying to dream up a parallel that would be important to you. Let's say you and your mother have been spending Christmas with each other your whole lives. You have a bunch of special traditions. You feel you are RIGHT to want to continue this tradition. Your husband wants to go to Disney World on Christmas. He is *so hurt* that you can't put aside the tradition for one year for your family. You guys fight and he pressures you. You finally give in. But that is all it is, giving in. In your heart you still feel you are RIGHT to insist on keeping this important tradition to you. Yah I can see you blowing off Disney and making plans with your Mom. It would be a crappy way to handle it. But giving in went against the core of your integrity. You were kinda coerced. You did not really compromise. You did not REALLY agree....

BN - feel free to tell me I am totally off base here if I am not approximating anything helpful. But it sounds similar to issues of DH and I of old. Lord we had plenty of them.

Let's be clear. I think BN should send an email to this woman/these women whatever and tell them that he will be unfriending them and then do so. I think he should 
1. not make any promises he does not mean to keep
2. keep promises he makes.
THAT is not what I am saying here.

What I am asking you ... let's say he does that. What next? What other things that he does not agree with are you going to require from him? Do you have the right to require of him things that he does not agree with? You DO have the right that he honor his marriage vows of emotional and sexual fidelity. Do you have a right to define that as far as facebook friends? More than who friends who on facebook, in my opinion, THAT is what you two should be discussing.

Furthermore I challenge you to another set of thoughts for both of you. Why are you bothered by, by your own words innocent communication with someone on Facebook? Are you worried that he is not trustworthy? Are you worried that he will stray? And... please don't be offended ... I ask you this because it is something I unwittingly did myself... are you asking him to jump through hoops to demonstrate love for you because you are insecure? 

And I challenge you BN to ask yourself. Why did I feel the need to make a promise then break it? Do I need to stand my ground and not make promises that my integrity won't let me keep? Or do I need to be more trustworthy and keep my promises? What do I get out of this facebook friendship that makes me want to risk my wife's trust?

Please let me know if my thoughts are unhelpful and I will cease and desist.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> In my personal experience and based on what I hear from other women, the sex is generally the LAST thing to go--women try to get their needs met, they keep loving and caring about their husbands so they keep having sex, and it is only when resentment from relatively long-standing issues arises that the women will find sex with their spouse to be unappealing or worse.
> 
> Many men will ignore women's needs UNTIL the sex stops, and then the man will complain that she is "withholding" sex. I'd like to hear from wives who turned away sexually at the very first sign of discord--as their FIRST effort to get their h to meet some of their needs. I think you would find this is quite rare.
> 
> ...


This is so true. By the time a woman is fed up the things that make her unhappy, they have existed for years. I read many experiences on the forum about men whose wives walk out on them. It is interesting that the men finally admit to ignoring their wife's request or minimizing them or not appreciating what she does only only when she is gone. These men describe years of problems and years of their wives trying to get though to them. They final see the light when she is driven to someone else to meet her needs.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> And I challenge you BN to ask yourself. Why did I feel the need to make a promise then break it? Do I need to stand my ground and not make promises that my integrity won't let me keep? Or do I need to be more trustworthy and keep my promises? What do I get out of this facebook friendship that makes me want to risk my wife's trust?


Well, the cats out of the bag and I have been revealed to be well imperferct. No surprise. I am ashamed of the let's call it the FB chat incident where I asked an old HS female friend to contact me through an email account that my wife doesn't have access to. But the larger issue is, and should be on a separate thread, what, if any, is an appropriate amount of privacy between spouses? 2sick has my FB password as well as all personal email passwords. She routinely goes thru them. She scours our/my cell phone records in search of numbers she's not familiar with. She reviews my internet usage at home. She was doing these things well prior to the "FB chat incident" Up until the FB chat incident I hadn't done anything to deserve such scrutiny. However, 2sick doesn't believe in any privacy. For the record we both have old boyfriend/girlfriend friends on FB.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

But vthsm has a point--at least some of the time, it is an honest difference of opinion--although I don't think that leads to resentment if it is communicated openly and honestly AND both people act like adults. Of course, that doesn't always happen. BUT if one person cannot act like an adult, then the other is right to walk away.

If a man says he believes he is right about XX and will act accordingly, a wife can choose to accept it--really accept it--and get over her objection. If she cannot accept it, then she needs to move on.

If a woman believes she is right about XX and will act accordingly, the guy should accept or move on. 

The trouble arises in several ways:

One party is not honest about things b/c s/he does not want to have to put up with the other person's response (dishonesty)

The person who needs to accept or move on won't--they continue in that unhappy place of resistance and/or passive-aggressive "punishment" of the other. (If women who were too resentful of their spouses to have sex with them would just leave, we'd hear a lot less about "withholding sex," I'm sure, but is that really a better solution? I honestly don't know!)

Happy couples do not reach the "move on" stage very often b/c they each know how and when to compromise AND they consider the other person's happiness as very, very important--not MORE important than their own, but nearly as important. So an h who knows his wife will fall in the toilet remembers to put down the seat b/c he loves her and doesn't want to contribute to her discomfort. A wife who loves her husband realizes that she needs to trust him and not displace her own insecurities on to him. She gets the help she needs because it is good for her and for the relationship. 

Of course, if real people acted this rationally, there would be a lot less need for a site like this!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Everybody is imperfect. Stuff happens.

There IS no objective measure of how much privacy a spouse *should* have. That strikes me as a useless question. 

Honestly you guys both sound like you are right fighting. 2sick what is more important to you? Being happy with your marriage? Or your reality that a spouse *shouldn't* have any privacy? I confess, I would chafe badly under the kind of scrutiny described here. I would not want to *let* someone in who was trying to force their way in with a crowbar. What was it Princess Leia said? Tark, the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. 

It is not that I would want privacy so that I could get away with stuff. But I would feel very not trusted. I would feel invaded upon. If it were me, I would gladly give access if I did not feel I was being forced to give it. 

Again I recognize how ripe for hurt feelings both of you sharing on the same thread can be. So I ask you to let me know of you feel my thoughts are not helpful to you.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Princess Leia said? Tark, the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.


A Star Wars reference, that's priceless!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

BN - I get what your saying. And I'm certainly not suggesting you were doing anything sinister. It's just the optics of it. And if she wasn't worried before she sure would be after.

Regardless. The privacy thing is a good point. However there is a difference between privacy, and secrecy. I think sharing passwords is good - it shows trust and respect and circumvents jealosy.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> BN - I get what your saying. And I'm certainly not suggesting you were doing anything sinister. It's just the optics of it. And if she wasn't worried before she sure would be after.


Yah that was a pretty unfortunate bit of screw up since now it lends credence to the very fears that 2sick has. And now they both have to figure that into the equation.


> Regardless. The privacy thing is a good point. However there is a difference between privacy, and secrecy. I think sharing passwords is good - it shows trust and respect and circumvents jealosy.


Indeed, sharing them does that. However, demanding them and scouring through them shows lack of trust and desire for control.

Interesting curiosity question for no one here but for you two, if not required how would you feel about sharing your passwords?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> it shows trust and respect and circumvents jealosy.


One thing... I think jealousy is a bad thing on the part of the jealous person. A person who has unwarranted jealousy is not demonstrating love or caring. They are demonstrating lack of trust. I don't speak to either 2sick or NB here. But word gives me ticks as we generally tend to assume that allaying jealousy is the responsibility of the other partner. In my opinion, jealousy not triggered by trustworthiness is the responsibility of the jealous party.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Wife has some of my passwords and I have some of hers. If she asked I would give her any password, but I would also feel a little sad that she felt she couldn't trust me. 

I think most of us occasionally have doubts, or let our imaginations get away from us. It would be wise to ask, check and move on rather than let these things grow.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> I think most of us occasionally have doubts, or let our imaginations get away from us. It would be wise to ask, check and move on rather than let these things grow.


I just disagree with this. Different strokes, perhaps. If you are having *unfounded* doubts, the right thing to do is learn to self sooth and not risk demonstrated unfounded lack of trust.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Not sure we are disagreeing. If it is totally unfounded then I guess you need to get your own head on right. But I'm thinking most times it is because something catches us of guard, and even though the other party is not doing anything wrong - that something might APPEAR strange. In these cases I believe communication is key - and showing an email or something to aleviate a spouses fears should be fine.

Let's say a spouse suddenly is talking on the phone late at night when your sleeping and you wake up and hear it a couple of times. You might think , what the heck? This is change of routine and appears sinister. But it could just as easily be a your spouses friend - who is going through hard times calling to talk? Rather than let your imagination run rampant and over react this should be dealt with right at the start.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Well are you going to right fight about it? I mean HE thinks its controlling. Do you want to care about who is right or do you want to be happy?
> 
> I think the channel for temptation thing is whooey, if you want to know the truth. You can't tempt the happy. If he is trustworthy, can you trust him?
> 
> ...


vthomeschoolmom: I appreciate your input. To be frank trust is an issue. Although he has implicitly denied them, there were two incidents which completely destroyed my trust in him. Specifically, back in 2002 BN went running at 5am in the morning and by "coincident" I received a phone call at 5 while he was out, from someone unknown to this day, with a man in the background sounding just like my husband saying "don't do this.....Don't f'n do this...." then the phone was disconnected. Even though he completely denies it, it is in the back of my mind that something happened...Several years later (after wondering why is on the computer in the middle of the night after I went to sleep) I searched the history on his computer to discover a twitter comment from some women saying looking for a nooner.....(coincidence Again... He had a meeting that afternoon and couldn't be contacted) Here too he completely denies the accusation. Again after a complete explosion I accept (well, not "accept", but turn my head) his version. This has lead me to not trusting him at all and constantantly looking in his computer history, checking phones.... and when I find something that doesn't coincide with what he says I ACCUSE!!! This is when he accuses me of being controlling and paranoid. The cycle then begins again.

Therefore, based on the earlier "coincidences" my trust level is extremely fragile. So each time he give me a half truth my mind reverts back.

So to make a long story longer, I guess you're right...It wouldn't matter what he did because I don't trust him. I think that I might be able to start if could start trusting me with the whole truth?!?!?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> vthomeschoolmom: I appreciate your input. To be frank trust is an issue. Although he has implicitly denied them, there were two incidents which completely destroyed my trust in him. Specifically, back in 2002 BN went running at 5am in the morning and by "coincident" I received a phone call at 5 while he was out, from someone unknown to this day, with a man in the background sounding just like my husband saying "don't do this.....Don't f'n do this...." then the phone was disconnected. Even though he completely denies it, it is in the back of my mind that something happened...


Well hell. Bring it to the fore of your mind. This is not some random mis-dialed number. If this is not forefront in your counseling deal, then it should be. Denial is no antidote to reality. People don't accidentally place a wrong number call at 5:00am without a gee sorry wrong number.



> Several years later (after wondering why is on the computer in the middle of the night after I went to sleep) I searched the history on his computer to discover a twitter comment from some women saying looking for a nooner.....


Nooner as in a lunch time quickie? That is what we used to call them.



> (coincidence Again... He had a meeting that afternoon and couldn't be contacted) Here too he completely denies the accusation. Again after a complete explosion I accept (well, not "accept", but turn my head) his version.


Why? I wouldn't. These things are FACTS. They have some real explanation in reality. How do you deny without a real explanation something like a tweet in the middle of the night?

So much for the no reason to distrust theory!



> This has lead me to not trusting him at all and constantantly looking in his computer history, checking phones.... and when I find something that doesn't coincide with what he says I ACCUSE!!! This is when he accuses me of being controlling and paranoid. The cycle then begins again.
> 
> Therefore, based on the earlier "coincidences" my trust level is extremely fragile. So each time he give me a half truth my mind reverts back.
> 
> So to make a long story longer, I guess you're right...It wouldn't matter what he did because I don't trust him. I think that I might be able to start if could start trusting me with the whole truth?!?!?


Well holy crispy crap. Sounds like a big fat nasty kettle of fish and far out of MY element to comment on. 

I wish you both the best of all luck. As I said you seem like nice people.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Well, the cats out of the bag and I have been revealed to be well imperferct. No surprise. I am ashamed of the let's call it the FB chat incident where I asked an old HS female friend to contact me through an email account that my wife doesn't have access to. But the larger issue is, and should be on a separate thread, what, if any, is an appropriate amount of privacy between spouses? 2sick has my FB password as well as all personal email passwords. She routinely goes thru them. She scours our/my cell phone records in search of numbers she's not familiar with. She reviews my internet usage at home. She was doing these things well prior to the "FB chat incident" Up until the FB chat incident I hadn't done anything to deserve such scrutiny. However, 2sick doesn't believe in any privacy. For the record we both have old boyfriend/girlfriend friends on FB.


BN failed to mention that he has all of my information tooo and has also used it!! I, unlike him don't mind him checking....There's nothing to hide! The lack of trust issue continues because he also uses his classified work e-mail for personal/private communications!! Because of past issues we have had, I find it hard to trust him.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

That seems reasonable. Sounds like this is the key issue and where you should spend a large amount of time focusing on in councelling. I think the reason this is still bugging you and influencing your interactions with your husband today, is because on some level you KNOW something unusual occurred in the past, (not suggesting necessary anything sinister) but for whatever reason you don't think you got the full story. It sounds like in order for trust to rebuild and resume some honestly and explanation is required.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Why did you pick the name 2sick?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

2sick said:


> Catherine602 That is the marriage I am looking for!!! That was the marriage I had! I can only hope that my husband can understand that Yes facebook does hurt, especially when you friend women you went to school with that you don't even remember.... and Yes it hurts when you tell half truths!!! When you go unappreciated even after trying so hard to please you get to the point where you don't want to try anymore!!! I would love to be able to just talk about EVERYTHING, good, bad, trivial, or life changing with my husband but he deems it intrusive and controlling?!?!? so he gives me half truths or nothing and then wonders why I can't give him "the bend over the sofa treatment" (which he did get when we were talking!!!) thanks for your LONG post


I think you should stop asking him for anything since he feels request are an attempt to control him Take the focus off its not working so why continue. 

There are enough stories in the media about Facebook destabilizing marriages that would make a sensible person avoid it. If he does not appear to be concerned about destabilizing yours, why do you insist on the same track. I think your discomfort is fueling his desire to do these things. Either stay and take his disrespect and or leave. if it is inconvenient to leave now you need to develop and exit strategy in the meantime get stronger. 

Do a totally different thing, decrease your reactivity, the emotional turmoil does not help your disease. Have you tried meditation? I have heard that it helps. 

My feeling is that he is purposely antagonizing you and he means to to cause you angst. So why rise to the bait like a puppet? Change up - what you are doing is not working in addition it is not good for your disease. Completely disengage if you have to stay. What will help you is to developing interest outside of your home that will make you stronger and more independent. Join a gym do light exercise and shed that weight, make yourself feel good and attractive, get your nails done, wear makeup and buy clothes that enhance your appearance. 

I would contact old bfs too. I would also go out with my gfs on Fri nights, maybe join a bowling league, go to the gym 2 X a week. If he sees it as no problem with befriending the opposite sex, why fight it, take advantage of the freedom and variety of men you could be talking to. He should be OK with that. 

I also think that if he feels conntrolled by your requests, having sex with him will not suddenly make him feel any less contrlled and he will continue doing exactly what is doing now. He gets to use you for sex while having lots of fun communicating with other women. He seems to have fixed ideas and attitudes that probably will not change lest he be controlled. I think in time he may cheat or is cheating if he is lying to you. He is hiding something, investigate. I really think you should leave with your dignity and not wait until he humiliates you. 

I may be wrong but that's the way I see it. You are the only one who knows what is going on. In addition, you must recognize and change the things that made the situation so dysfunctional or the same thing will happen again. Did you stop him when he first started to be disrespectful or did you let it ride? Was he the same person years ago that he is now? You have to look at every thing and be honest about your role. I know the emphasis is on saving relationships but sometimes people change so much that they are no longer compatible. 

Your husband pushed my buttons by what he said and, I am certain he means to bait people. So I will say no more. Also, I must say that some of what I written is out of anger but there are some good sensible parts, you are smart enough to know where they are.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

2sick said:


> Specifically, back in 2002 BN went running at 5am in the morning and by "coincident" I received a phone call at 5 while he was out, from someone unknown to this day, with a man in the background sounding just like my husband saying "don't do this.....Don't f'n do this...." then the phone was disconnected. Even though he completely denies it, it is in the back of my mind that something happened...Several years later (after wondering why is on the computer in the middle of the night after I went to sleep) I searched the history on his computer to discover a twitter comment from some women saying looking for a nooner.....(coincidence Again... He had a meeting that afternoon and couldn't be contacted) Here too he completely denies the accusation.


What else can I do but deny this ... Went jogging and that's it. Had a classified work related meeting that's it (don't have a twitter account and never saw what she was talking about). She is convinced that something fishy took place but she's wrong and won't let it go.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I step out of this discussion as way out of my league.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Why did you pick the name 2sick?


That's a funny question because, that is at issue too....BN believes I did it because I wanted to milk my illness, ( I have MS) But I had actually picked the name because I had gotten too sick of all the issues in my marriage for me not to talk to someone about them!!! (Maybe I had subconsciously used the name because of my illness, but I hadn't thought about it until he brought it up.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> People don't accidentally place a wrong number call at 5:00am without a gee sorry wrong number.


Actually, this message went to an answering machine, 2sick kept the message for years. Claims the voice sounded like mine.



vthomeschoolmom said:


> Nooner as in a lunch time quickie? That is what we used to call them.


Yep that's what their called, but it never happened.



vthomeschoolmom said:


> Why? I wouldn't. These things are FACTS. They have some real explanation in reality. How do you deny without a real explanation something like a tweet in the middle of the night?


Here are the facts: 1) I went running in the am, someone left a message while I was gone. 2sick chose to draw the conclusion that I knew the caller(s) 2) My cell goes unanswered for 90min. during a classified meeting. 2sick goes looking for an explanation on my computer and finds what she describes as a tweet but the tweet can't be found we we look for it together.

2sick believes that most if not all men are prone to infidelity, she filters information through this prism.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I step out of this discussion as way out of my league.


Vthomeschoolmom: COMPLETELY understand!!! TOOO deep for me too now!!!:iagree:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Here are the facts: 1) I went running in the am, someone left a message while I was gone. 2sick chose to draw the conclusion that I knew the caller(s) 2) My cell goes unanswered for 90min. during a classified meeting. 2sick goes looking for an explanation on my computer and finds what she describes as a tweet but the tweet can't be found we we look for it together.
> 
> 2sick believes that most if not all men are prone to infidelity, she filters information through this prism.


OK I really should disengage. But I am just plain crazy. Did you hear the message? Seems to me if someone called you, there would be a number. Cannot numbers be traced? All issues of trust aside, this one seems easy to put to bed.

A tweet was there and now is gone. I know nothing about tweets. But it was a while ago and is now gone.

So the issue amounts to 
- Is BN a deceitful person who gives just cause for trust issues OR
- Is 2sick kinda paranoid

That one si more than a little difficult to solve.

But the idea that all men are a razor's edge from infidelity... that is a recipe for disaster.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Actually, this message went to an answering machine, 2sick kept the message for years. Claims the voice sounded like mine.
> 
> 
> Yep that's what their called, but it never happened.
> ...


Now the question goes back to yep nice explanations, but should I trust him again. Everyone is "prone" to temptation and based on the discussion about sex....and how its not connected to love and emotion it's not tooo far off! (obviously there are definitely decent people...yes MEN... who are faithful and loyal to their spouses) Mine has just made it hard for me to see it


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> Now the question goes back to yep nice explanations, but should I trust him again.


Why not take matters in your own hands? Find the caller.



> Everyone is "prone" to temptation


Sorry, 2sick. That is nonsense.



> and based on the discussion about sex....and how its not connected to love and emotion it's not tooo far off!


Being able to have sex without love is possible for many people, myself included. That doesn't mean they are going to flush their marriage down the toilet for it.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> OK I really should disengage. But I am just plain crazy. Did you hear the message? Seems to me if someone called you, there would be a number. Cannot numbers be traced? All issues of trust aside, this one seems easy to put to bed.
> 
> A tweet was there and now is gone. I know nothing about tweets. But it was a while ago and is now gone.
> 
> ...


vthomeschoolmom: You have EXACTLY gotten to the point at hand!!!! We have stalled on that very question!!!! He thinks I'm paranoid...I think he's deceitful!!! The million dollar question is how do we resolve this dilemma which perpetually returns to haunt the hell out of this relationship!?!?!? Would LOVE some insight!!!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Why not take matters in your own hands? Find the caller.
> 
> 
> Sorry, 2sick. That is nonsense.
> ...


That's true!!! Suppose it is a bias that have. And yes that is a BROAD general statement that I probably shouldn't make. I apologize to those who are faithful and just enjoy sex to enjoy it. I have become very tainted both throughout my relations before marriage, as a child and sadly during my marriage.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

2sick said:


> vthomeschoolmom: I appreciate your input. To be frank trust is an issue. Although he has implicitly denied them, there were two incidents which completely destroyed my trust in him. Specifically, back in 2002 BN went running at 5am in the morning and by "coincident" I received a phone call at 5 while he was out, from someone unknown to this day, with a man in the background sounding just like my husband saying "don't do this.....Don't f'n do this...." then the phone was disconnected. Even though he completely denies it, it is in the back of my mind that something happened...Several years later (after wondering why is on the computer in the middle of the night after I went to sleep) I searched the history on his computer to discover a twitter comment from some women saying looking for a nooner.....(coincidence Again... He had a meeting that afternoon and couldn't be contacted) Here too he completely denies the accusation. Again after a complete explosion I accept (well, not "accept", but turn my head) his version. This has lead me to not trusting him at all and constantantly looking in his computer history, checking phones.... and when I find something that doesn't coincide with what he says I ACCUSE!!! This is when he accuses me of being controlling and paranoid. The cycle then begins again.
> 
> Therefore, based on the earlier "coincidences" my trust level is extremely fragile. So each time he give me a half truth my mind reverts back.
> 
> So to make a long story longer, I guess you're right...It wouldn't matter what he did because I don't trust him. I think that I might be able to start if could start trusting me with the whole truth?!?!?


It sounds like you are justified in not trusting him. When you suspect cheating your intuition is telling you something is wrong. If his behavior has changed, there is secrecy and lying then there is a god possibility that he is cheating. Your mind is telling but, it is too painful to contemplate. 

There are plenty of sites that give you the signs that a person is cheating. Look at them and see if it fits your situation. A cheater will lie even when you have pictures, if they have not convinced you by lying, then they try to make you think you are crazy, unreasonable, jealous and wrong for suspecting them. If you are still suspicious they try to change reality and convince you that you did see or hear what you actually did. The pattern is amazingly similar.

1) his voice that you heard on the phone, he changed reality by convincing you that you did not hear what you heard. An alternative explanation is that a woman he was having an affair with became angry with him and called the number to scare him. 

2) the twitter communication and his meeting at noon explained away, did he get angry and make you seem crazy? Another explanation is that he met a woman and had sex with her at noon.

3) The secret email account and communication with the woman, you were invading his privacy, he deflected your suspicions by making you the bad person can't a man have privacy? Sure he can but he cannot communicate secretly with woman, the explanation that he was exercising his right to privacy and he did not want to deal with you objections again a deflection. Another explanation is that he was hiding communication with a woman he was actively having an affair with or planning it. 

4) The woman that he convinced you that he could not be having an affair with because she had kids and I think you said you met her. He changed reality again cleverly making you think he could not have had and affair because you met the woman and women with children don't have affairs. Or another explanation is that they concocted this meeting and convinced you they were not having an affair, she cooperated because if you found out, you could tell her husband. You know woman with kids have affairs. Another manipulation of reality.

These incidences in aggregate are strong indications that your husband is a cheater. He has probably had several affairs. You will never know for sure unless you get definite proof but every thing points to it and I think you know. 

It is difficult to face this because you want to believe him, you want to keep you family together and avoid the pain this will bring you. Google the signs a spouse is cheating and Read, ignore his manipulation of your reality, and protestation of invasion of privacy all the attempts to make you wrong or crazy. Just think for your self. How is it that he is posting on the site with you? Do you think he is trying to manipulate the thread and have a ready explanation and to monitor what people say so that he can can be prepared to concoct a good explanation? 

I think you will see the pattern of deception, blaming, making you the crazy unreasonable one, telling you you did not see and hear, and the repeated contacts with women. Think about and ask yourself, how many marriages would all of this take place if both partners were truly honest and loving? Do you know happily married couple where so many suspicious incidences happen? 

I really feel for you. I believe your failure to follow you intuition is natural. You cant believe someone would lie so boldly, care so little about you that they would hide the deception by making you feel crazy and wrong. It is difficult to believe but that what cheaters do. It is hard to believe that someone who says he loves you could do it. You probably think he would leave if he was having affairs, but why should he if he get get away with it. Think of all he stands to lose financially, and he will not have daily access to his his kids, or the inconvenience of having to move out. Those are the incentives, not because he loves you.

A man who cheats throughout the marriage even when he is having frequent sex with his wife and the relationship is good cannot remain faithful they don't have the character it takes, they are insecure in their manhood and need constant affirmation through sexual conquests. 

You can decide to stay and make his life convenient while you are so miserable and show your kids a model of marriage that includes disrespect of women, lies, and manipulation. Not having him around, would that improve you happiness? Do you want to live with a man who causes you constant anxiety and unhappiness? If he was not there, would your life be better, less stressful, no need for constant search for proof or policing, no one to call you crazy, no lies that you have to take, no ignoring what you know to be true.

All I say is pure speculation - it is up to you to sit and regroup, define your reality away from manipulation and strife. Trust yourself. Regain your self confidence and self esteem that has no doubt been taken from you. You have the chance to get out of an unhappy situation now, while you are still young. There are lots of stories on this forum of women who allowed themselves to be talked into not believing what they knew only to have to face up to the cheating decades latter and regret not leaving. Read their stories and see if you recognize your life. A one time cheater in an unhappy marriage can re-establish a connection but a serial cheater will continue to cheat it is part of their nature, staying with them means more pain. 

I hope I am wrong and I wish you the very best.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> It sounds like you are justified in not trusting him. When you suspect cheating your intuition is telling you something is wrong. If his behavior has changed, there is secrecy and lying then there is a god possibility that he is cheating. Your mind is telling but, it is too painful to contemplate.


There's always two sides to each story, but unfortunately, you and some of 2sick's friends echo the above sentiment. My protestations cannot penetrate the collective "trust your instincts" sentiment. Repairing this relationship now appears intractable.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Bad News said:


> There's always two sides to each story, but unfortunately, you and some of 2sick's friends echo the above sentiment. My protestations cannot penetrate the collective "trust your instincts" sentiment. Repairing this relationship now appears intractable.


No there are actually 3 sides, you forgot the truth remember. . The 3 sides are actually more like a continuum rather than sides. . At each end of the continuum are the issues from the standpoint of each individual and in the middle is the truth. There is always one view that is closer to the middle, the truth, and one further away. The lier's story is at the far pole and since is fiction it can not be considered a side at all. So when two people tell a story and one is deceptive there is really only one side. 

You appear to have mastered the art of the two sided "story" have you not? So much so that you have worked your magic on your poor wife. You have managed to make her doubt what she hears. Congratulations for a job well done, but don't get a fat head your wife has a considerable handicap, she is tying to avoid the pain that the truth, that side you forgot about, will bring and anyone in her position would allow themselves to be manipulated so you had a slam dunk, so easy that it is cowardly. 

I feel very sad that she has had to endure the humiliation and desperation of her position and I hope that she is courageous and declares her marrige dead and moves away from a situation that amount's to mental cruelty. I hope I am dead wrong but I don't think I am.

Why do you want to salvage the relationship? Do you love her so much? If you really loved her you would not lie and flaunt your contacts with woman knowing what it does to her. Your "stoy" about privacy and not being controlled is a smoke screen to hide your contacts with women. why stay if you want the freedom to contact women. You know that it causes her distress a man with compassion and a man natural desire to make his wife happy would stop. Of course if you care more about being controllled and privacy then I think you should not be married. You obviously are not the type to put a wife's happiness at the top of you list. 

How can you stand to make her so unhappy. You know exactlly what contact with other women does to a woman in a committed relationship, you know what being secretive and deceptive about those contact does too. You know the torture your activites with these women does to a women. You know that your assignation with women is a source of pain for her. How can you stand watching her suffer? Why don't you just get out and do what you want. Surely, staying to avoid a financial hit is inconvenient for you but look at that against what you are doing to your wife. Don't you have any feelings left that you can call up, some empathy, maybe some human kindness. You extend that to strangers why not to your wife. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

2sick does your husband think he smarter than everyone else? Is he arrogant? he probably deleted the tweet account before he allowed you to look at it. The phone manipulation is easy for a person in intelligence to do, there is a footprint some place if he used his intelligence background to fix the phone. Read over all of his post, the elaborate explanations are almost laughable they all depend on you being crazy to be believed. You are either delusional or you husband cheats. Has he been dishonest in the past, is he a good lier? Is he a warm caring person or cold and selfish? 

Be brave listen to yourself, family and friends they will be there to support you. In about a year you will know it was the best thing you ever did. The divorce will be difficult especially if he is manipulative, self centered man and a lier but when it is over you will be free to relax and be yourself. Right now you are a puppet on strings that he controls by making you the crazy unreasonable one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Look Cath. I've been through the same "feeling something's wrong". I've checked every single thing i was paranoid about, on my own. Turns out, he wasn't cheating. He's told me like a million times...so i guess at a point i should've just taken his word for it. But no, no "my gut feeling was telling me something". Probably that i was being silly and insecure and felt as if i wasn't enough for him so i figured it MUST be because he's with someone else or wants to leave me. 

On the same line ...i've been called by guys in the middle of the night, i've sat nights talking to friends while he was sleeping, i've given him a truckload of reasons to think that i'm unfaithful (if he were to think just as you are now). In reality, i've never done anything with those guys. i didn't even consider doing something. They were merely friends(and no i don't mean an EA, just people you talk to, like i'm talking to people of both genders here). I've been faithful for the past 9 years. Not to say it's a big deal...i am faithful by nature. But my husband didn't trust me back then. 

So not all people are manipulative, skeeming jerks and some people really get paranoid with little reason sometimes, because they interpret things wrong. 

I'm clueless as to whether BadNews cheated or not, as i'm clueless whether 2Sick cheated or not, but i wouldn't freak out so much over a tweet and a wrong number call (could've been a prank call, could've been a lot of other stuff.)

@2Sick - add me to the list of people who can have sex with other people and "use" them without even caring about them (let alone love). 

For me sex can range from the basic, feeling-less hump to the truly passionate love making you do with someone you love from the bottom of your heart and anything in between. As mentioned above, i take my faithfulness in my marriage very seriously. Probably doesn't help that i'm a woman saying this but i've seen plenty of men reveal the same as well.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Nekko said:


> Look Cath. I've been through the same "feeling something's wrong". I've checked every single thing i was paranoid about, on my own. Turns out, he wasn't cheating. He's told me like a million times...so i guess at a point i should've just taken his word for it. But no, no "my gut feeling was telling me something". Probably that i was being silly and insecure and felt as if i wasn't enough for him so i figured it MUST be because he's with someone else or wants to leave me.
> 
> On the same line ...i've been called by guys in the middle of the night, i've sat nights talking to friends while he was sleeping, i've given him a truckload of reasons to think that i'm unfaithful (if he were to think just as you are now). In reality, i've never done anything with those guys. i didn't even consider doing something. They were merely friends(and no i don't mean an EA, just people you talk to, like i'm talking to people of both genders here). I've been faithful for the past 9 years. Not to say it's a big deal...i am faithful by nature. But my husband didn't trust me back then.
> 
> ...


Nekko: Your comment is extremely disturbing?!?!?!?What do you mean you could have sex with other people and use them without even caring? Aren't you married? If not then that's your choice if so hope you're not giving your spouse diseases! 

Re: me, I would feel more comfortable to accepting a wrong number or prank if it was in the p.m. NOT 5 a.m. in the morning! And not hearing a man's voice that sounded exactly like BN (by the way I have known him since I was 13 -30 years!!!) 

My dilemma is trust!!! He hasn't given a reason to trust. Although, I have known him for that long and that I love him and want to believe him when he says it wasn't him, how can I overlook the facts?!?!?

All I have wanted is to be connected! He calls it controlling! I find it so odd that he is able to connect with others sooo freely. Telling his female friend about how a greeted him with only my heels on, and then telling ME his conversation with her is PRIVATE?!?!? Don't know what would be more private than an intimate moment with "the women you love"? I have to regrettably agree with Catherine. BN just seems to want to be alone and is trying everything passive aggressive to remove me from his life! You too are correct....I don't have a clue whether or not he has cheated!!! I can just go on how he treats me...and based SOLELY on that, even when he says he wants to continue counseling, his actions of continuing to do the things that sooo deeply hurt me, speaks louder than ANYTHING he says!! 

We have two beautiful kids (13 and 15) and sadly they are the only reason I can think of for staying with him.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News said:


> There's always two sides to each story, but unfortunately, you and some of 2sick's friends echo the above sentiment. My protestations cannot penetrate the collective "trust your instincts" sentiment. Repairing this relationship now appears intractable.


I am sympathetic to you. From your point of view, you feel unfairly accused and raked over the coals for something you did not do. I can also see her point of view. If I received a call at 5:00 with that content that *coincidentally* happened when you weren't around, I would not settle for a denial either. (I would probably be divorced already, so you might want to give your wife a little credit here.)

The tweet I can understand that there is nothing you can do about. But the phone call?

Either 
- It never happened and in addition to being paranoid, your wife is a bit of a nut case making things up to support her paranoia. I don't think you believe this.
- The call happened and the caller and/or content is other than what she thinks. Since it is still a point of contention, I imagine you did not delete it. Have you heard it? Can you make any comments on what you heard?

In either case, since you know the date and the time of the call, you can FIND OUT the caller's phone number. When you find out that it is some dope you've never heard of the problem is put to rest.

If I were in this situation, I would have found one of your statements very disingenuous. You laid out what looked like a rather whacky protocol of snooping. Then said you had never given her reason to not trust you. Well yah, since you did not MAKE the call, maybe you didn't. So the letter of your statement is accurate. But it completely devalues her feelings of mistrust based on actual occurrence, I would be 150% sympathetic to you if she was making this up out of the ether. 

I imagine you realize that cheaters will continue to deny in the face of evidence much greater than what you guys are facing. So I would be doubting too. And in the face of that, you broke trust in email with a woman. Probably not your best move.

I am not trying to lambaste you. You probably feel pretty attacked right now. I am trying to offer another point of view from which you can act. Is it FAIR that you should have to rebuild a trust you never broke? Really, no. Unfortunately life is not fair. Do you want to do that for the love of your wife? And for your marriage? 

I DO think leaving the phone call truth hanging out in limbo when you can FIND the actual and objective truth makes no sense. But that is me.

Cheers.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

BN - I have had a suspicous wife as well. She has thought a few times that I have done something in which I have not. Part of it is my fault - things have occurred that looked bad. So NOW - I make a a real habit of not feeding her fears and being hyper vigilant to make sure I communicate and belay those fears before they happen. As far as past deeds that you can't prove disprove...... maybe she could suggest what she needs for closure on these???


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

> My dilemma is trust!!! He hasn't given a reason to trust. Although, I have known him for that long and that I love him and want to believe him when he says it wasn't him, how can I overlook the facts?!?!?


That's right YOUR dilemma is trust. But your evidence is not overwelming or absolute. He messed up with the secret emails. That's the only compelling evidence you have. The other events MAY have happened the way you think, or they MAY have not. You just can't know for sure. So to vilianize him you are gambling on your marriage and family because something MIGHT have happened.

I think you have to give your spouse the benefit of the doubt if after due diligence you can't conclusively confirm or deny. The FACTS are only he DID communicate with a woman behind your back. His reasons dont' matter. That is the only issue you can deal with the rest are too ambiguous.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> BN - I have had a suspicous wife as well. She has thought a few times that I have done something in which I have not. Part of it is my fault - things have occurred that looked bad. So NOW - I make a a real habit of not feeding her fears and being hyper vigilant to make sure I communicate and belay those fears before they happen. As far as past deeds that you can't prove disprove...... maybe she could suggest what she needs for closure on these???


Eagleclaw: That is a very good question because I don't think there could ever be true closure. I have done the proverbial forgive but not forget. Because it is truly a trust issue, the question will always arise each time there is dishonesty. I believe I have tried to move on but am pushed right back into not trusting. I do give you kudos for trying for your wife and I hope she appreciates it....I know I surely would.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Now this is a first for me - a husband and wife both on the same thread arguing! I wonder what it's like at home for the both of them now...

I have to engage on the comment: "2sick believes that most if not all men are prone to infidelity." Unfortunately, I have to agree and I am not sick, paranoid, delusional, whatever label you want to put on it.

It has been proven again and again and again, that this statement holds true for a lot of men (I didn't say all). You see it on TV, you read about it here, etc., etc.

While I may be wayyyyyy off-base here. I don't believe there are very many men alive on this earth that would just turn and walk away if a gorgeous, stacked woman was naked and in front of them and telling them to "come and get it." 

As my husband once admitted - he said all men are really scumbags deep inside when it comes to sex. He may be right!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> T
> 
> I think you have to give your spouse the benefit of the doubt if after due diligence you can't conclusively confirm or deny. The FACTS are only he DID communicate with a woman behind your back. His reasons dont' matter. That is the only issue you can deal with the rest are too ambiguous.
> 
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

The thing is you need to decide what you want. If you want to stay married then you will need to move on from this and let it go. And in order to do this there has to be closure and a fresh start.

Of course a question will arise when theres dishonesty. But that's the point - there shouldn't be dishonestly. If you keep experiencing dishonesty ( like the secret emails etc) then you need to re-evalutate the relationship. But if you are looking for issues and can't substantiate them - you can't classify that as dishonesty. 

If you guys want to stay together and work this out, and are going to move forward then you have to let the past go. You need a fresh start. It would be a great time to communicate some boundries and expectations.

You to probably need complete transparancy right now. No unshared passwords. And if an event arises that worries you - then you need to resolve it at that time. Let trust build.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MarriedWife:

I can't agree with your comment. Before I was married I wasn't terribly faithful to any of my girlfriends. But once I got married I HAVE NEVER CHEATED. And the exact situation you describe happened to me last year. And it happened at a time when the wife and I were going through hard times and hadn't been intimate in a month. I was drunk, and as tempted as I was - I turned it down. I don't believe men and woman are all that different sexually. Men just admit what they are. And in doing so I think are more apt to watch themselves.

I have always loved women, the challenge, sex, chasing, the whole package. But I love marriage and my family far more.


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> The call happened and the caller and/or content is other than what she thinks. Since it is still a point of contention, I imagine you did not delete it. Have you heard it? Can you make any comments on what you heard?


Of course I heard it, it was a woman and a man arguing using expletives but their voices were somewhat muted. 2sick insist that the male voice was mine. Unfortunately, the volume of his voice and the length of time he was speaking was not enough to be conclusive, in my opinion.



vthomeschoolmom said:


> I imagine you realize that cheaters will continue to deny in the face of evidence much greater than what you guys are facing. So I would be doubting too. And in the face of that, you broke trust in email with a woman. Probably not your best move.


Some on TAM have questioned my character, and that's the beauty of anonymous forums. But if I had cheated I would have confessed long ago, and either begged for forgivness or gotten divorced. I am aware that 9/10 (maybe higher) men that deny cheating when confronted with evidence are also liars. But I have not cheated, nor conspired to cheat or been tempted by another female. I simply have too much respect for 2sick to ever do that.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> MarriedWife:
> 
> I can't agree with your comment. Before I was married I wasn't terribly faithful to any of my girlfriends. But once I got married I HAVE NEVER CHEATED. And the exact situation you describe happened to me last year. And it happened at a time when the wife and I were going through hard times and hadn't been intimate in a month. I was drunk, and as tempted as I was - I turned it down. I don't believe men and woman are all that different sexually. Men just admit what they are. And in doing so I think are more apt to watch themselves.
> 
> I have always loved women, the challenge, sex, chasing, the whole package. But I love marriage and my family far more.


Note that I didn't say ALL men. We don't agree and that's okay. And I don't believe that men and women are even close to being the same sexually. But that's okay. I'm glad you are faithful to your wife, good for her and you.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MarriedWife: I can accept that  

A quick google search regarding cheating suggests the numbers between the sexes aren't the far apart. 

The statistics about cheating 

"In 2006, a Durex condom poll asked participants if they had ever cheated, reporting 40 percent of women had, and only 34 percent of men."

"A study by the University of Washington, asked men and women if they had ever cheated, discovering 20 percent of men under age 35 pleaded guilty, and only 15 percent of the women"


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Some on TAM have questioned my character, and that's the beauty of anonymous forums. But if I had cheated I would have confessed long ago, and either begged for forgiveness or gotten divorced. I am aware that 9/10 (maybe higher) men that deny cheating when confronted with evidence are also liars. But I have not cheated, nor conspired to cheat or been tempted by another female. I simply have too much respect for 2sick to ever do that.


BN:You say you have too much respect to ever cheat or be tempted by another female, however you have any said that you have deleted certain things from your computer...How is that respectful or even caring?!? I think that for future reference you actually need to put the woman you love and your family first and to not feel afraid to always communicate even if it means someone's going to get upset. As eagleclaw brought up, open communication is the key. Sadly it seems to late for us (unless some sort of miracle occurs) but you have got to know that communication with your significant other FAR exceeds anything with anyone else!


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick, one thing does come to mind. If you are going to let the phone call of 2 years go, then you need to actually let it go. You can't say you let it go, here I am but keep bludgeoning him with it. Either fully let it go or fully don't.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> 2sick, one thing does come to mind. If you are going to let the phone call of 2 years go, then you need to actually let it go. You can't say you let it go, here I am but keep bludgeoning him with it. Either fully let it go or fully don't.


You are completely correct vthomeschoolmom and that's also the problem!!! It's not that simple! I want to let it go but then something else happens and I grab it again. I, in general (if you haven't guessed) am NOT a trusting person!! Therefore having a completely closed off husband doesn't help me much. I think my desire to move on has kept us together since 2002. BN also has on and off tried to open up. Not sure why he decides to shut back down. Like this last time everything was going so unbelievably well, we were talking sharing and being physical...not sure if it was something I said or did but right before his office party he began to shut down...I began to start resentment and the mudslide quickly occurred and here we are now facing separation right before Christmas?!? :confused


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> You are completely correct vthomeschoolmom and that's also the problem!!! It's not that simple! I want to let it go but then something else happens and I grab it again. I, in general (if you haven't guessed) am NOT a trusting person!!


What do you believe is the right solution for this? For HIM to constantly have to prove himself to you? Or for you to do some personal growth work to over come this? Do you think it is ok to just be "not a very trusting person", and have that be a default position in your marriage?



> Therefore having a completely closed off husband doesn't help me much.


Well while I am busy trying to help people see the other side of the coin... 

I, personally, don't share your view that a spouse should have no claim to privacy. (BN I cannot quite fathom why you thought to use your privacy to discuss your sex life with another woman.) The openness you want is a GIFT not something you can and should demand. IF I was being attacked as untrustworthy, the very last thing I would want is someone putting me under a microscope. I would bet a dollar that under a microscope someone could find something wrong with just about ANYTHING. I would feel resentful and needing to protect my personal space Even More.





> I think my desire to move on has kept us together since 2002. BN also has on and off tried to open up. Not sure why he decides to shut back down. Like this last time everything was going so unbelievably well, we were talking sharing and being physical...not sure if it was something I said or did but right before his office party he began to shut down...I began to start resentment and the mudslide quickly occurred and here we are now facing separation right before Christmas?!? :confused


Well hopefully that can be something to resolve in counseling! Good luck.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What do you believe is the right solution for this? For HIM to constantly have to prove himself to you? Or for you to do some personal growth work to over come this? Do you think it is ok to just be "not a very trusting person", and have that be a default position in your marriage?
> 
> 
> Well while I am busy trying to help people see the other side of the coin...
> ...


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> (BN I cannot quite fathom why you thought to use your privacy to discuss your sex life with another woman.)


Let me provide some context so you can fathom my actions. Firstly the other woman is my best friend from HS (10th grade to be precise). 2sick and I attended their wedding, and she and her husband attended ours. The email account used is a personal account that 2sick has access to, and I agreed to communicate with non-work folks on this account. The main purpose of the email was to establish a time for our families to get together socially, the female friend has two children that are close in age to ours. Here’s the email verbatim (less redacted names) you tell me if the content crosses the line:

Email:
This weekend is less desirable for *name* and *name* due to an all day track meet for *name* on Sat. and Magnet testing for *name* also on Sat. - how about the following weekend? Also we should have lunch sometime soon. FYI, *2sick* and I are getting along much better - a combination of the marriage counseling, soul searching and frank dialogue. Came home from work on Tuesday and she greeted me in high heels and nothing else - hooray for after-school activities!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What do you believe is the right solution for this? For HIM to constantly have to prove himself to you? Or for you to do some personal growth work to over come this? Do you think it is ok to just be "not a very trusting person", and have that be a default position in your marriage?
> 
> *VT: You are completely correct!!! No I don't think its fair to BN or myself it's a definite B and completely exhausting to not trust your spouse!!!! You are also right....I need to grow... I have to have faith that BN will stop being private and closing down on me. I guess it's a lot like the trust game...even though he has dropped me on several occasions I will have to try and fall again and hope he'll catch me!?!?!?*
> 
> ...


Funny ya mention resolving in counseling because we are currently debating if we are beyond that point now!!! But Thanks anyway for all of your advice it is GREATLY appreciated.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Let me provide some context so you can fathom my actions. Firstly the other woman is my best friend from HS (10th grade to be precise). 2sick and I attended their wedding, and she and her husband attended ours. The email account used is a personal account that 2sick has access to, and I agreed to communicate with non-work folks on this account. The main purpose of the email was to establish a time for our families to get together socially, the female friend has two children that are close in age to ours. Here’s the email verbatim (less redacted names) you tell me if the content crosses the line:
> 
> Email:
> This weekend is less desirable for *name* and *name* due to an all day track meet for *name* on Sat. and Magnet testing for *name* also on Sat. - how about the following weekend? Also we should have lunch sometime soon. FYI, *2sick* and I are getting along much better - a combination of the marriage counseling, soul searching and frank dialogue. Came home from work on Tuesday and she greeted me in high heels and nothing else - hooray for after-school activities!


Oh. Wow. Well then. Enough said. Were you able to get together that weekend?


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Oh. Wow. Well then. Enough said. Were you able to get together that weekend?


Yes, we did.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

2sick said:


> Like this last time everything was going so unbelievably well, we were talking sharing and being physical...not sure if it was something I said or did but right before his office party he began to shut down...I began to start resentment and the mudslide quickly occurred and here we are now facing separation right before Christmas?!? :confused





2sick said:


> My dilemma is trust!!! He hasn't given a reason to trust. Although, I have known him for that long and that I love him and want to believe him when he says it wasn't him, how can I overlook the facts?!?!?
> 
> We have two beautiful kids (13 and 15) and sadly they are the only reason I can think of for staying with him.


What is the dilemma? You can't trust him, isn't that a given. 


Your kids, what do they see in your relationship what do they see as the emotional state of their mother - Is this what they see - a man can do as he likes even if it upsets his wife, a woman has no right to make any request of her husband so as not to invade his privacy, a man is entitled to sex no matter how deceptive and unkind he is. There are many other negative messages the most important of which is that a woman must stay with a man no matter how unhappy he makes her. 

You keep saying the same thing. You're not ready to see what is before your eyes. Any man worth the title would not distress his wife by continuing to contact woman. Men know very well the affect that that has on a partner. So he continues in the face of your distress. Moreover, you have a chronic illness and he accuses you of using it for sympathy! What kind of loving husband would even say that. 

I think the therapy sessions are delaying tactics, if he is not following the advice of the therapist why does he go? Is it possible that it buys him time and gives you the impression that he is trying to work things out? Could it be that he is just trying to placate you and take the focus off of the cheating? Why waste time in therapy with him, go to individual therapy and find out why you want to stay with him. 

Your husband does not care enough about you and your children to stop contacting woman and destabilizing the marriage, not enough to stop communicating in secret with them, and most likely he does not care enough about his family to not cheat. 

Others argue that you have no proof, you have proof the phone call the tweet you can;t find. Even if he has not had an affair, that fact remains, he continues to contact woman, he could easily stop to make you happy but he has values privacy and a little fun with the ladies rather than your happiness. He is aware of how unhappy it makes you, yet he continues. 

That's why I advised you to completely disengage. If you did that, he would lose the ability to upset you. There is nothing you can do to stop a man who does not care from cheating, so stop driving yourself crazy. 

Stop looking you wont find any evidence in the places you are looking, he learned from past mistakes and has moved his base of operations to work. Take the money you are wasting on therapy and hire a PI. Take the rest of it and join a gym. Place the focus on you, get in shape look your very best, get out and meet people. I think you will surprised what a small boost to your ego will do. If you felt good, looked good, and knew that you could be in another more functional relationship if you got rid of your husband, would you hesitate as you are now? 

I don't understand the advice that other posters are giving you encouraging you to forget about it. If it was one thing then you forget, if he confessed to cheating and you decide to stay then you forget, if there is ongoing suspicious activity, you cant forget you are constantly being re-wounded. It's crazy to suggest that you should just suck it up and move on after each cut.  

The phone thing have the voice analyzed that will put it to rest. The Christmas party thing, if he wanted into the relationship and you were both doing well, why did he fade away? What was his explanation for why he shut down. Did he ever explain or did he leave you with the impression that it was something you did? Was there a woman at the party he seemed interested in? If he cannot give you an adequate explanation then he is hiding something and if you can't figure out what happened, don't risk your emotions again. 


You mentioned some bad times in the past and I think this is having an adverse effect on how you have allowed yourself to be treated. What is your dream for your life what would make you happy? You can have what you need but you have to believe that the bad things that happened to you were not your fault you do not need to be punished for them. You can have what will make you happy.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Some on TAM have questioned my character, and that's the beauty of anonymous forums. But if I had cheated I would have confessed long ago, and either begged for forgivness or gotten divorced. I am aware that 9/10 (maybe higher) men that deny cheating when confronted with evidence are also liars. But I have not cheated, nor conspired to cheat or been tempted by another female. I simply have too much respect for 2sick to ever do that.


If you have so much respect why don't you stop contacting woman? If you have so much respect why did you stop progressing when you were doing so well around Christmas?

Words mean nothing actions do, how do your actions show respect for your wife?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> What is the dilemma? You can't trust him, isn't that a given.


We have obviously been reading two different threads.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> If you have so much respect why don't you stop contacting woman? If you have so much respect why did you stop progressing when you were doing so well around Christmas?
> 
> Words mean nothing actions do, how do your actions show respect for your wife?


Perhaps that he is unwilling to be controlled and badgered into giving up his best friend from high school. That would be my perspective if it were me.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

VT - Yes it starting to appear that Catherine is not reading the same thread as us. Sounds a bit like she is projecting some of her own issues.

I don't see him contacting a bunch of woman, just his BF - who they both have a social life with. Me and my wife have social friends and we have both discussed minor parts of our sex lifes with them. And I would be damn hessitent to give up a friend, or change by actions when I have done nothing to warrant that scrutiny.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Bad News said:


> Yes, we did.


And sad to say that was the final part to this ultimate fight!!! That was when my resentment went to its peak! After I had shopped, cooked and fully prepared for all of us to have a fantastic evening (with absolutely no gratitude from BN...until after I blew up) He and his friend went to chat about our situation (during the party) and then when I entered the room they said they were talking about another person?!?!?!? They later got on facebook and he requested that she suggest him as a friend to some women they went to school with (even though "he didn't remember who she was?!?!?!?) This in turn led to another tiff which led to him telling (not a lie) but a half truth. From his stammering I knew that I should check his email (which I had actually stopped doing since we seemed to be a good path) Needless to say THAT was when I saw the e-mail about me just wearing my heels! (Amazingly she doesn't feel the need to reciprocate information about her intimate relations with her husband, even though BN says they too are having issues)


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Perhaps that he is unwilling to be controlled and badgered into giving up his best friend from high school. That would be my perspective if it were me.


I would NEVER ask him to give up his friendship!!! I truly love her myself...That's not the issue...HE's NOT married to her and I don't think that their relationship is more important than his marital relationship! I believe yes he needs to vent just like she does...and just like I do....However I try to include him on how I'm feeling...he doesn't.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I agree ..... Catherine has her own trust issues. 

2Sick is talking about some phone message from 2002. EIGHT years ago. No proof that Bad News was involved in this. Because of this, she is ruining their marriage. Projecting her mistrust on everything Bad News does, based on this issue that Bad News had no control over. 

The email to his friend from High School sounds like a loving message about his marriage to a friend. It was speaking highly of their marriage and their relationship and yet 2Sick uses it to reinforce her mistrust.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> VT - Yes it starting to appear that Catherine is not reading the same thread as us. Sounds a bit like she is projecting some of her own issues.
> 
> I don't see him contacting a bunch of woman, just his BF - who they both have a social life with. Me and my wife have social friends and we have both discussed minor parts of our sex lifes with them. And I would be damn hessitent to give up a friend, or change by actions when I have done nothing to warrant that scrutiny.


I don't mind the BF, I mind the facebook friends who he says he doesn't even know?!?!? Why friend people you don't know just because you went to school with them...(especially when you are only of that mindset with the females and not males!?!?)


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick I am sorry you are so upset. I really am. From where I sit, it really looks like you have lost your noodle in a fit of shrilly accusations. Not trying to be mean. I have done the exact same things countless times. 

He has to white lie to you because you freak out over what amounts to nothing. I am not saying white lies are right. Honest truth and dealing with the aftermath really would be the best choice for him. But I sure can see where he would feel he can't be totally honest with you.

You made a nice dinner. Is he supposed to fall all over himself with gushing praise because you made a dinner for what is supposed to be mutual friends?

You don't trust him because you feel he has done a bunch of inappropriate things. He can't trust you either because he is under constant scrutiny that gets turned into a bat to bash him with. How can he be open to you? 

If you feel he was really cheating, thus meaning he has lied and lied all along, then of course you need to be gone. Hasta lavista, baby. 

But if you really believe in your heart that he hasn't, then the rest of this is just hyper insecurity. Insecurity is not his job to soothe. It is your job to learn how to soothe it yourself.

Sorry to be so blunt. It is who I am. I do wish you both the best.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> I don't mind the BF, I mind the facebook friends who he says he doesn't even know?!?!? Why friend people you don't know just because you went to school with them...(especially when you are only of that mindset with the females and not males!?!?)


I do it all the time. It is fun. We tell remember when stories. Oh no way, you were there too? Isn't it funny I don't remember it that way. Remember the time Kristen gave up french fries for Lent? Remember homecoming when Jack dropped Sheila during the dance?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree ..... Catherine has her own trust issues.
> 
> 2Sick is talking about some phone message from 2002. EIGHT years ago. No proof that Bad News was involved in this. Because of this, she is ruining their marriage. Projecting her mistrust on everything Bad News does, based on this issue that Bad News had no control over.
> 
> The email to his friend from High School sounds like a loving message about his marriage to a friend. It was speaking highly of their marriage and their relationship and yet 2Sick uses it to reinforce her mistrust.



So I should also forget about the tweet from some woman asking for a nooner (and he coincidently had a secret lunchtime meeting?!?!?!) 

And not too loving of an email when there has never been a precedence for them talking about marital relations!!! What is intimate between my husband and I should remain between my husband and I...Especially when he thinks conversations are off limits for he and I.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I do it all the time. It is fun. We tell remember when stories. Oh no way, you were there too? Isn't it funny I don't remember it that way. Remember the time Kristen gave up french fries for Lent? Remember homecoming when Jack dropped Sheila during the dance?


And you friend those people you don't remember?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> So I should also forget about the tweet from some woman asking for a nooner (and he coincidently had a secret lunchtime meeting?!?!?!)


I thought you said you had. I thought you said you were "over it." If you believe he is/was cheating and has been lying all this time, I would think it is time to drop kick him to the curb.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes I have friends on my facebook that I don't remember. It fun trying to remember, or finding out why they remember you. In my case it is also mostly female. Why? Well because most of the people from my grad class that use facebook, are WOMEN. And between the women and the men the women are much more likely to send me a friend request or get in touch. Are women more social? I think so.

Your letting this stuff eat you alive. And unless you find a way to wipe the slate and deal with your insecurities better - you will end up alone. And even in that situation - if you find someone else and duplicate your insecurities you will end up right back at the same place. At this point, I think I would be likely to want to start not telling you everything and not feeding your insecurities because it would get VERY tiresome. I wish you luck conquering your demons.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

And as far as being over any of these events. Your not. You have brought up over and over again in this thread alone. Any any event that peaks your curiosity, brings all these past events to the surface again. It's easy to say you have forgiven and moved on. It's much harder to walk the talk.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2Sick .... you are damaging your relationship. I have a bunch of 'friends' on Facebook that I hardly remember from high school. It doesn't make me a cheater. Typically, the chatting that goes back and forth is .... "Where are you living? How many kids? We should have a reunion sometime?"

Because of your admitted trust issues, your husband has a hard time communicating with you. He can't just tell you what is going on, because you project something bad into his message. So you see his talking as 'half-truths' when really he is just trying to format his message in a way to avoid conflicts with you.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> 2sick I am sorry you are so upset. I really am. From where I sit, it really looks like you have lost your noodle in a fit of shrilly accusations. Not trying to be mean. I have done the exact same things countless times.
> 
> He has to white lie to you because you freak out over what amounts to nothing. I am not saying white lies are right. Honest truth and dealing with the aftermath really would be the best choice for him. But I sure can see where he would feel he can't be totally honest with you.
> 
> ...


VT: absolutely no problem with the bluntness!!! I am truly looking for insight!!

No he shouldn't be gushing but he sure as hell should be appreciative... instead he said...Who told you to do all that anyway!!! You just go overboard!!! Which is true I go all out for my friends and family so I wanted to go all out for his friend. (she IS still his friend not mine even though i like her we don't communicate.)

I am not so sure about the "insecurity". My problem is that I might be too secure and want to demand more from BN....which also is not good. 

I agree completely leave the cheater....just like an abused woman should leave the beater (not that BN is anything like that) In fact he is a good guy and that is why I remain torn. I see the facts but I refuse to believe that he could be that cold and callous!?!?!? 

You are right...self soothing is the way and for the most part it works (hell we've been together for over 16 years and known each other for 30) BUT i truly wish he would just stop those freak'n white lies!!! I can't do it ALL by myself...he's gotta come half way!


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2sick said:


> So I should also forget about the tweet from some woman asking for a nooner (and he coincidently had a secret lunchtime meeting?!?!?!)


Yes you should forget it. You have no proof of any wrong doing. You talked about it and he explained that he didn't have a twitter account and that it had nothing to do with him. How many years ago was this? 



2sick said:


> And not too loving of an email when there has never been a precedence for them talking about marital relations!!! What is intimate between my husband and I should remain between my husband and I...Especially when he thinks conversations are off limits for he and I.


He was happy. You made him happy by showing your love and desire for him. He was sharing his happiness with a mutual friend. When you brought up this email, I was expecting some graphic description of sexual acts you guys performed. Not "We are doing great, she greeted me at the door naked".


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> 2Sick .... you are damaging your relationship. I have a bunch of 'friends' on Facebook that I hardly remember from high school. It doesn't make me a cheater. Typically, the chatting that goes back and forth is .... "Where are you living? How many kids? We should have a reunion sometime?"
> 
> Because of your admitted trust issues, your husband has a hard time communicating with you. He can't just tell you what is going on, because you project something bad into his message. So you see his talking as 'half-truths' when really he is just trying to format his message in a way to avoid conflicts with you.


That is what causes the conflicts!! I too have a bunch of friends on facebook and don't have a problem with him reuniting with old friends it's great to reminiscence about old times...it's healthy and fun...but is it right to chuckle out loud and when I come over to ask what's so funny, having someone blurt out stop looking over my shoulder?!?!?!?

I think he has trust issues too....meaning that he can't seem to trust that I am NOT going to criticize or complain. Believe it or not I hadn't always been so critical!! BN has admitted that he uses negative mind reading against me, before I can even say anything. I suppose that is something we should work on, if we decide to continue therapy.

ANYWAY, I want to thank ALL of the people who have posted....Although you may not have a counseling degree, we feel like we have saved thousands of $ in therapy sessions just reading your input!!!!:smthumbup:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> VT: absolutely no problem with the bluntness!!! I am truly looking for insight!!
> 
> No he shouldn't be gushing but he sure as hell should be appreciative... instead he said...Who told you to do all that anyway!!! You just go overboard!!! Which is true I go all out for my friends and family so I wanted to go all out for his friend. (she IS still his friend not mine even though i like her we don't communicate.)


That is exactly what my husband would say. I mean... now he would say thanks for the lovely dinner dear. Back then, what BN said is EXACTLY what he would have said. YOU chose to make that dinner for YOU because YOU like to go all out. *I* would have ordered a pizza or made pasta. 



> I am not so sure about the "insecurity". My problem is that I might be too secure and want to demand more from BN....which also is not good.


How is demanding EVER a sign of security? Demanding is a total marriage killer.



> I agree completely leave the cheater....just like an abused woman should leave the beater (not that BN is anything like that) In fact he is a good guy and that is why I remain torn. I see the facts but I refuse to believe that he could be that cold and callous!?!?!?


After 30 years, do you think you can look him square in the face and ask him? What does his body say? What do his eyes say? It is VERY difficult for eyes to lie. Because after 8 years, it is time to **** of get off the pot, seems to me. 

Either you believe him or you don't. If you don't, there is a fairly clear cut set of actions that need to be taken. You can't live with someone who would maintain a lie for 8 years. But if you do believe him, you have to really start working on *believing him*. You can't keep in this limbo land of drama and insecurity Yes I feel fairly strongly that you are trying to control his actions to soothe your insecurity. You need to decide, do you trust him or do you not trust him. 

Not until you can make this decision does it make sense to start talking about what you want to *agree to* in terms of boundaries with opposite sex friends. Notice I said *agree to* since you really don't have the right to force your opinion on boundaries onto him. He has his own opinions, and you two need to come to the table ready to openly discuss those boundaries and *agree to them*.



> You are right...self soothing is the way and for the most part it works (hell we've been together for over 16 years and known each other for 30) BUT i truly wish he would just stop those freak'n white lies!!! I can't do it ALL by myself...he's gotta come half way!


Indeed. BN that might be a good tack. If I am right and you are white lying out of a desire to not have to face the resultant consequences, how about dealing with the consequences? See dear, I tell you the truth and you freak out... or whatever. I am not saying I know you freak out 2sick. Inferring some things here.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

2sick said:


> That is what causes the conflicts!! I too have a bunch of friends on facebook and don't have a problem with him reuniting with old friends it's great to reminiscence about old times...it's healthy and fun...but is it right to chuckle out loud and when I come over to ask what's so funny, having someone blurt out stop looking over my shoulder?!?!?!?
> 
> I think he has trust issues too....meaning that he can't seem to trust that I am NOT going to criticize or complain. Believe it or not I hadn't always been so critical!! BN has admitted that he uses negative mind reading against me, before I can even say anything. I suppose that is something we should work on, if we decide to continue therapy.
> 
> ANYWAY, I want to thank ALL of the people who have posted....Although you may not have a counseling degree, we feel like we have saved thousands of $ in therapy sessions just reading your input!!!!:smthumbup:


You guys sound like two people that love each other. You should continue counseling. You guys might not be happy together right now, but you guys will be more unhappy apart.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

SadSamIAm said:


> You guys sound like two people that love each other. You should continue counseling. You guys might not be happy together right now, but you guys will be more unhappy apart.


 Thanks Sam!!Although I haven't discussed it with BN (he'll see to the post ) I think after reading everyone's input you're right!! I do love him dearly and YEP we should at least give fixing this broken marriage a try!!!

Wish us luck!!! (sure we'll be back in a couple of weeks)


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You want so badly for this to work that you have been convinced that you are the only one with problems and only you can fix the problems. I think it is a shame that these posters have convinced you to blame yourself and give your husband a pass. You are not the sole cause for the problems in your marriage it is never one person, so please don't take the full blame for this as these posters advise you to do. 

Yes I have been reading the same thread and my conclusions are as valid as anyone here. I hope I am wrong though. 

There is no reason that he should not have been appreciative of your efforts for the dinner party, your intensions were good. I am fearful that you husband will take these post to mean that he has no reason to change. 

2sick I know you want this to work badly and I sincerely hope the posters supporting your husbands activities and making you the crazy unreasonable one will not influence you to the point of you changing and he does not. Make him work for your trust you are worth, you can demand things from a husband - respect. Read books on boundaries and remember to work on you, gym, activities, looking good that will help you focus more on your self. Wait to see if he will make the changes you need for an emotional connection to develop. It would not hurt to get tested for STDs just on the apparently very slim chance, according to these posters, that he is a serial cheater. Woman are apt to give and give and not protect themselves, learn to do that. 

If he slips up again, I hope you will leave, if not plan on a life of pain, uncertainty and eventually, regret.

I wish you luck and a lifetime of happiness.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> You want so badly for this to work that you have been convinced that you are the only one with problems and only you can fix the problems. I think it is a shame that these posters have convinced you to blame yourself and give your husband a pass.


No one is telling her to blame herself. And no one said anything about a pass.


> You are not the sole cause for the problems in your marriage it is never one person, so please don't take the full blame for this as these posters advise you to do.


2sick, did you read me to blame you for this?


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## Bad News (Nov 4, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> You are not the sole cause for the problems in your marriage it is never one person, so please don't take the full blame for this as these posters advise you to do.


I completely agree, I share the blame too.



Catherine602 said:


> Yes I have been reading the same thread and my conclusions are as valid as anyone here. I hope I am wrong though.


True. Some of your post comments has resonated with me and especially 2sick. Don't agree with your conclusions though.



Catherine602 said:


> There is no reason that he should not have been appreciative of your efforts for the dinner party, your intensions were good.


 Yes, I f****d that one up. 2sick was already upset near the end of the evening and I responded badly.



Catherine602 said:


> I am fearful that you husband will take these post to mean that he has no reason to change.


Not exactly, I realize that I have issues that need to be addressed.



Catherine602 said:


> It would not hurt to get tested for STDs just on the apparently very slim chance, according to these posters, that he is a serial cheater.


 I think if 2sick truly felt violated she would have, and I would not have objected. Believe you me if an accessible affordable polygraph test were available I would jump for it and put these issues of infidelity behind me.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> No one is telling her to blame herself. And no one said anything about a pass.
> 
> 2sick, did you read me to blame you for this?


VT: absolutely not I took it that WE BOTH were to blame and that I needed to accept my part.....And actually am very greatful to have YOUR nonbiased opinion so that we both were able more clearly see each other's views!!! SOOO Thanks and (since this is anonomous I don't mind letting you know that his post is now mute:smthumbup: Did one of your moves! Keep us in your thoughts!!!! I'm sure we'll be back..;P


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Good luck!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I really appreciate you answer to me. This may sound strange but,I feel much better. A few times this has happened- I become concerned about a poster and what they are going through. I am not always sure why but I could see that your wife was so desperate and her description of you seemed so cold and uncaring. there are things you could so easily do to reassure her but you use privacy as excise to keep her unhappy. I don't want to continue beating a wounded knee so I won't list my perception of your domestic crimes. 

I don't agree with the posters here who claim that they would not accommodate their wives if she made a request that they perceived invaded their privacy but would comfort and reassure her. A partner is the most important person in a spouses life and juvenile petty concepts of privacy and control are advanced as reasons to deny a request from a spouse, a thing that would reassure him/her.. Yet they demand sex as their right and invade their wife's privacy to get it and try to use control and coercion. It's no wonder their wives refuse them sex, if they don't want to be controlled by their wives then their wives have a right to access the same privileges refuse to be controlled by their need. . They experience some of their own medicine but they are too wrapped up in outrage to see the justice in it, , but I am certain they don't see it that way. End of rant. 

I thank goodness my husband is not a mean and imature man. I am the one who can be that way to my good man and i reget it terribly. I would not give a second thought to giving up male friends, even ones that i consider my bff, if they made him uncomfortable, his happiness is more important than my mild sadness at bidding them adios.. The reason is that he does so much to make me happy and he is at the top of my bff list. 

Why don't you take lie detector test and get the tape voice anyllized that would put this matter to bed and you can indeed go forward. It makes no difference how many years it took place, if it is important to her and you love then the miner of yrs mean nothing to her comfort and the strenth of the marriage. If you drag you feet make excuses not to take it you wife can draw her own conclusions. 

I was accuseesd of projecting my issues in my responses, I probably did, my father had a mistress from the 2nd year of their 37 yr marrige until the day he died. I saw my mother suffer for that long. Our culture accepts a man's right to a mistress and the wife is expected to ignore it. However, this does not invalidate one thing that I said. 

Again thank for putting me at ease and I hope you will make 2sick 2happy and she make you good book. Thirty years of a relationship is rare and precious it should be treatedi like a fine wine, carefully tending and frequent enjoyment. I wish that so much for you and your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

2sick said:


> Nekko: Your comment is extremely disturbing?!?!?!?What do you mean you could have sex with other people and use them without even caring? Aren't you married? If not then that's your choice if so hope you're not giving your spouse diseases!


I meant if i was single (aka i have the capacity to see sex that way).....I thought that would be a easily understood since i mentioned that i'm married for many years and faithful throughout that time. 

The impression you leave is that you're a bit too suspicious on what you see/read...I mostly agree with vthomeschoolmom.
In any case, glad to see you're working on things and best of luck to you both


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> T
> 
> How is demanding EVER a sign of security? Demanding is a total marriage killer.



VT: Again Thanks for the BLUNT input!!! I just wanted to clarify the "demand" statement. I meant to say deserve! I believe that BN is lucky to have a women like me (and I a man like him...most of the time) and that he should have NO problem treating me with respect because I have MORE than earned it. Not to say that I am without flaws (NO ONE's perfect) but I believe that I have earned what I am asking for and am hurt when he doesn't provide it. AGAIN your in sight was a God send thanks for bringing back to balance!

EC: Didn't mean to insult you just that you used the present tense and wasn't sure what you meant. What you did as a single person is FAR different than when you're married. Yep in college....Please what was love....Now I EXPECT love and sensitivity from the man I married and get upset if I don't get it....Because under usual circumstances people marry for love and actually are planning to stay with that person for the rest of their life. That's all. Again sorry if insulted you.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

2sick said:


> VT: Again Thanks for the BLUNT input!!! I just wanted to clarify the "demand" statement. I meant to say deserve! I believe that BN is lucky to have a women like me (and I a man like him...most of the time) and that he should have NO problem treating me with respect because I have MORE than earned it.


I hear you! Don't ever stop believing it!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

No insult taken. Skimming back I don't even see anything insulting! Anyways, sounds like you guys are coming around. I wish you well.


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## hounddog (Dec 18, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Though 2sick, I HAVE just sucked it up and boned him in order to loosen the mood, and get some good willing flowing again.
> 
> Who goes first ... show me the love, and I will show you the sex OR Show me the sex, and I will show you the love... Kinda random.


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## hounddog (Dec 18, 2010)

i think you are a very smart person and wish we could all fight so fair and still have sex then maybe we will rember why we where atracted to each other in the first place and stop fighting so much i agree aftyer 32 yrs of being married thanks hounddog


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