# gave infidelity books to ex's niece and...



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I recently gave her all the books I used during the time I was trying to repair my first marriage, thinking them useful.

I'd tried to get the ex to read them with me and she said she would look at them but i never saw her read any of them.

So I asked the niece if she found the books useful for her own marriage, she with a cheating husband.

She said she read them all and had a MC plan with her H who also read them.

The interesting thing is that unprompted by me, she said that she commented to her aunt, my ex, that she read all the books I had given her on infidelity. before she could even ask my ex whether she had read them as well, the ex jumped in with comment like "Oh, he read all those books and tried to get me to read them, they're a waste of time."

I keep thinking about that quote from Socrates:

"The unexamined life is not worth living"


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

michzz said:


> I recently gave her all the books I used during the time I was trying to repair my first marriage, thinking them useful.
> 
> I'd tried to get the ex to read them with me and she said she would look at them but i never say her read any of them.
> 
> ...




That's so true


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"The unexamined life is not worth living"

So true....and yet, this is one of the major fundamental differences I see between MOST (but not all) BSs ans WSs.

I think a healthy person has to be their own worst critic.

Self-reflection is essential to growing as a person, and the worst individual to lie to is yourself, as you will never learn from the incidents that occur in your life and move forward a better person.

WSs seem to be particularly reluctant to do this...they would rather do anything but look inside themselves to learn how and why they allowed themselves to utterly betray the person they had made vows to.

Most BSs on the other hand, even when they have come to the full realization that the A was NOT their fault in any way, post in their threads about how they now see they made mistakes in the pre-A M...they are learning and growing as individuals from a painful experience in their lives.

In the long run, I think most former BSs come out of these events as much better and stronger people than their WSs.

This is also just one of the myriad of reasons I would never date a known cheater...how can you build and grow a relationship with someone who refuses to self-reflect?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

michzz said:


> I keep thinking about that quote from Socrates:
> 
> "The unexamined life is not worth living"


Another saying comes to mind as well:

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink."

{quote from anonymous cowboy probably}


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

EleGirl said:


> Another saying comes to mind as well:
> 
> "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink."
> 
> {quote from anonymous cowboy probably}


If i were being mean about it, paraphrased:

You can lead a BLANK to knowledge but you can't make her think.


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## Faeleaf (Jul 22, 2014)

My husband and I have a theory about this, because it seems that everyone, regardless of how reflective or thoughtful they are, is blind to *some* aspect of themselves that is glaringly obvious to everyone else. Even if you are trying to confront your darkest parts, it can be difficult, nay impossible, to see oneself with a completely objective eye.

We call this "blinders," as in, "everyone has blinders on to something." 

So we've agreed that if we find each other's blind spots, we'll alert each other, and trust each other's word about it. 

Now, if there's something we're BOTH blind about...well...hopefully it isn't life threatening!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Faeleaf said:


> Now, if there's something we're BOTH blind about...well...hopefully it isn't life threatening!


If you have children they will be happy to call these to your attention.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Faeleaf,

I agree that self-reflection can sometimes be an unpleasant and difficult task....it is not fun to honestly assess one's own crappy behavior and decisions.

I do not agree that it HAS to be an impossible task, but I do like the wisdom of you and you H about calling each other out on the 'blinders', as you call them.

We can indeed all be guilty of that, but my suspicion from honest self-evaluation of past events/times where I have been guilty of doing this, it wasn't that I didn't 'see' what I was truly doing...I would actually accuse myself of being in willful DENIAL...I was in fact lying to myself.

Only future repercussions of continuing my stupid behavior finally forced me to 'come clean' in my self-reflection.

I am specifically referring to struggles I had with abusing alcohol after breaking up with my fiance in 1998 (not infidelity related) and being very depressed. 

It was only after I stopped lying to myself that I was able to resolve these issues and grow as a person.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Another saying comes to mind as well:
> 
> "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make *her* drink."
> 
> {quote from anonymous cowboy probably}


Fixed it for you.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

*Re: Re: gave infidelity books to ex's niece and...*



Dyokemm said:


> "The unexamined life is not worth living"
> 
> 
> Self-reflection is essential to growing as a person, and the worst individual to lie to is yourself, as you will never learn from the incidents that occur in your life and move forward a better person....
> ...



Just playing devil's advocate for the sake of an interesting argument...

So, what if someone was the one that cheated.... But after their relationship dissolved they realized something in them was inherently broken, so they got help? From your perspective is cheating something one can never grow from following some serious IC and introspection?

Many people think I'm crazy for being friendly with my exH who was abusive... But he went to anger mgmt, IC, and lost the unity of our family... And he grew from that all tremendously. It doesn't make what happened acceptable, but for me it has made it forgivable. 

Just wondering I suppose if these often dealbreakers are always dealbreakers... Or if the cheater has paid some sort of penance and done the work to improve themselves, does it allow for additional consideration?

We see known cheaters on here fairly often that have done the necessary introspection to better themselves... CSS, Mrs. Mathias, EI, Mrs. John Adams... Obviously these are all persons that R, but there are many that did not that will tell you it was the biggest mistake of their life. Is that not self reflection?

You can lie to yourself during an A, thereby making you a "known cheater" and grow as a result of you poor choices after the fact... Whether or not that black mark on your past warrants immediate disqualification... I'm sure that is fairly individual.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Pepper123 said:


> Just playing devil's advocate for the sake of an interesting argument...
> 
> So, what if someone was the one that cheated.... But after their relationship dissolved they realized something in them was inherently broken, so they got help? From your perspective is cheating something one can never grow from following some serious IC and introspection?
> 
> ...


A most excellent post!

It's certainly possible for betrayer/betrayed can develop a friendship after divorce so long as they demonstrate the desire to change for the better. But that does not negate the pain and damage done by a betrayer. Some learn to cope and even forgive to a certain point if the change is legitimate.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"So, what if someone was the one that cheated.... But after their relationship dissolved they realized something in them was inherently broken, so they got help? From your perspective is cheating something one can never grow from following some serious IC and introspection?"

Pepper,

This is a great question.

I do believe anyone CAN learn to practice serious self-reflection, I just think that most WSs, abusers, and other crappy behaving people refuse to do it....but yes I think they COULD do it.

But, the thing is with me, it would never be enough to earn another chance with me...there are certain 'red lines' that if you cross them there will never be a return/forgiveness....great for them if they go on to learn to become better people, but it will not rebuild a relationship with me.

For similar reasons, I choose not to date a former cheater...I do not want to trust that they have learned their lesson and know how to reflect and grow as a person....I guess if some one could find a way to really convince me she had figured out how she could betray her partner and has resolved those issues and become a better person, I might be willing to see what happens....but that would take a lot of convincing.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

michzz said:


> If i were being mean about it, paraphrased:
> 
> You can lead a BLANK to knowledge but you can't make her think.


:lol: :rofl:


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

*Re: Re: gave infidelity books to ex's niece and...*



Dyokemm said:


> But, the thing is with me, it would never be enough to earn another chance with me...there are certain 'red lines' that if you cross them there will never be a return/forgiveness....great for them if they go on to learn to become better people, but it will not rebuild a relationship with me.


I completely get this perspective... I tried to forgive my exH while we were married for the sake of our family, but I never felt safe. That feeling of not being safe- regardless whether it is a physical or emotional basis, is the simplified yet catastrophic result of betrayal. I just couldn't live that way...


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## timedoesnothealall (Sep 15, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> :lol: :rofl:


You can lead a BLANK to knowledge but you can't make her think.

My pony was un-leadable; she wasn't even thirsty.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

timedoesnothealall said:


> *You can lead a BLANK to knowledge but you can't make her think.[/*COLOR]
> 
> My pony was un-leadable; she wasn't even thirsty.




When I was in college many years ago, I heard that same quote as : "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think."


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

It took the TAM experience for me to face up to what I had done to my wife and family.

When you come to that realization what a POS you are it’s devastating. 

All this time I thought I was a “Good Guy” and great Dad.

It’s when you know what you really are and accept the consequences for your actions and do all you can to make things right…………..Then you grow

55


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

michzz said:


> I keep thinking about that quote from Socrates:
> 
> "The unexamined life is not worth living"


For some people, it would be correct to restate this, because they would not want to discover their shallowness:

"The _examined _life is not worth living."

Just carry on as you were.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

michzz said:


> I keep thinking about that quote from Socrates:
> 
> "The unexamined life is not worth living"


Are you familiar with the "Allegory of the Cave" then? Who's in what cave here?

Because I'm wondering what you think she is going to learn from these books? Why she did what she did? I bet she has a better idea about that than some author who doesn't know her and who is selling books to desperate people and whether or not she shares that frankly with you and whether or not you would accept it if she did 

Are you trying to teach her about your pain and trauma? Does she care? And if she does, why can't she ask you about that. I would think you know that. You were there


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

TimeHeals said:


> Are you familiar with the "Allegory of the Cave" then? Who's in what cave here?
> 
> Because I'm wondering what you think she is going to learn from these books? Why she did what she did? I bet she has a better idea about that than some author who doesn't know her and who is selling books to desperate people and whether or not she shares that frankly with you and whether or not you would accept it if she did
> 
> Are you trying to teach her about your pain and trauma? Does she care? And if she does, why can't she ask you about that. I would think you know that. You were there


every one of those books discussed how to constructively deal with infidelity.

interesting perspective you have about the books and audience, not having been told the titles.

I believe the ex, if she has done any constructive self examination has not shared what she found with anyone that matters.

Any Homeric parables, while fun to think of, are not really apt.

Again, there was no desperation, more like frustration, that she couldn't be bothered to read well-thought-out solutions or participate in any real recovery.

The books were merely an example of attempts to fix things.

I wasted a lot of time, money and emotional energy on that woman, yes.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "The unexamined life is not worth living"
> 
> So true....and yet, this is one of the major fundamental differences I see between MOST (but not all) BSs ans WSs.
> 
> ...





I agree with much of that, perhaps even all. Yet I think it is worth noting some who have cheated do find the courage and motivation to self-reflect, learn, and grow. (You seemed to leave room for that in what you said. It just seems worth noting to me.)



I have a friend who is such a person. Though he has made wrong choices in the past which hurt innocents as well as himself, I respect and admire his consciously driven efforts to understand himself and grow, to be a better person, and to create a satisfying authentic life.



Yes, many don't bother to bounce when they hit bottom. Some do.


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