# Word to the Wise



## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

I have posted a couple of previous threads about my husband's ED and porn addiction and just wanted to
share a few things with all the husbands and wives out there who deny their spouses a fulfilling intimate life ...

I'd rather not go into all the events and drama of the past several months but the short story is after many years of a virtually sexless marriage and giving him multiple chances and every benefit of every doubt he was unwilling to change. He continued to engage to behavior that he knew hurt me (even if he thought I didn't know) while making half assed attempts at solving the situation. It was never sincere.

I loved him. In almost every other way we were so good together. Common interests and goals, really enjoyed each other's company. He was my rock when I lost my parents, had kid drama and financial difficulty. He took care of me when I was sick, he listened to me when I needed to vent. He supported and encouraged me in a very scary career change. He was more than my best friend, I was closer to him than I have ever been to anyone, I depended on him like no one else, he knew me better than anyone. He was considerate and attentive and loving in virtually every other way. But for all that I do not love him any more.

He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.

So if you are some version of him please do not fool yourself into thinking that your actions are not having an effect on your spouse and on your marriage, just because you don't think they should. Perhaps you can compartmentalize you feelings, but I guarantee your spouse cannot. And eventually they will just stop loving you. It doesn't matter what else you do right or well. It might take a month or a year or 10 years but sooner or later it will hit them that they just don't love you anymore.

I hope losing me was worth to my husband whatever it was he was able to keep by not facing his demons.







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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

It is sad so many men choose to watch porn instead of appreciating their wives. 

Why resorting to junk food when you have a fine meal in your own bed?

Like a Big Mac is clogging the arteries, porn is clogging the man's brain.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your post really go to me as you very eloquently talk about how your husband basically killed off the love you had for him. I've been through something similar. You describe it well.

I quoted your post to a thread that this topic ... here's a link to the thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/350970-sex-starved-wife.html


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> It is sad so many men choose to watch porn instead of appreciating their wives.
> 
> Why resorting to junk food when you have a fine meal in your own bed?
> 
> *Like a Big Mac is clogging the arteries, porn is clogging the man's brain.*


Human sexuality is much more dynamic than the analogy of one's desire for food.

Porn is more like watching a commercial for the Big Mac that you will never get to eat. Since human desire sometime needs a little distance to create a spark, the idea of an unobtainable Big Mac is not what makes you fat. It is the idea that it is unobtainable because you do not deserve it, then you stuff your face with whatever self pity you have to make yourself feel better, and that makes you fat.


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## Legend (Jun 25, 2013)

Masturbation and pornography go hand-in-hand for men. Pornography is a type of addiction and men are quite visual.

Eliminate masturbation and you usually eliminate the need for pornography (at least for men).

Your sexual desire belongs to your spouse, not to some fantasy on a screen. 

BTW, there are plenty of married women who get off on sexual fantasy books.

Reminds me of something I read long ago, "Women hate porn but sure do read the f**k out of it."

What I'm saying is that pornography robs a marriage of a spouse's sexuality toward their mate. Masturbating while fantasizing about someone else also harms a marriage.


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## Capricious (Sep 21, 2016)

Legend said:


> Masturbation and pornography go hand-in-hand for men. Pornography is a type of addiction and men are quite visual.
> 
> Eliminate masturbation and you usually eliminate the need for pornography (at least for men).
> 
> ...


Not sure I agree with any of this at all.

Many couples will find that pornography (in moderation) enhances their intimacy. The same can be said about masturbation I the in your own or with a partner.


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## Capricious (Sep 21, 2016)

Legend said:


> Masturbation and pornography go hand-in-hand for men. Pornography is a type of addiction and men are quite visual.
> 
> Eliminate masturbation and you usually eliminate the need for pornography (at least for men).
> 
> ...


Not sure I agree with any of this at all.

Many couples will find that pornography (in moderation) enhances their intimacy. The same can be said about masturbation on your own or with a partner.


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## Capricious (Sep 21, 2016)

Sorry double post.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

I'm pretty sure your husband's ED is linked to his porn addiction. You might want to check out *this site*.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Legend said:


> Masturbation and pornography go hand-in-hand for men. Pornography is a type of addiction and men are quite visual.
> 
> Eliminate masturbation and you usually eliminate the need for pornography (at least for men).
> 
> ...


Here's the thing. Part of me disagrees strongly with this as I believe masturbation and fantasy is a healthy thing. However...my husband hasn't masturbated or watched porn alone for over 2 years and I can honestly say there has been a huge shift in his sex drive. When I first came here 2 years ago I thought my H was LD, but now he wants sex everyday and would certainly now consider him HD. So I can testify that there may be some truth in what you say. I think it all depends on the couple and what the underlying issues are and how far we are willing to go to confront them.

To the OP. Being hurt was never enough to stop my H doing what he did (which was a double whammy of hurt). Because he always justified it and there are always other people who will justify it for him that ALL men do it. It is like being an alcoholic and surrounded by social drinkers - everyone does it, it must be ok. I think it was the ED that shocked him into change. If that doesn't prompt a man into drastically changing his lifestyle then I don't know what will. 

What I suspect happens with ED is that a man experiences changes in his usually reliable body and he can make two decisions which is to face it, deal with it, share the vulnerability with his partner, work on it together...or put his head in the sand and use porn when a full erection is not necessary and there is no-one there to judge him or make him feel emasculated. I'm not saying you and I would do that deliberately to our husbands, but that is what it feels like, ED is a horrible thing whether self inflicted or not. 

Shame is a vile emotion that makes us act very badly at times.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

peacem said:


> What I suspect happens with ED is that a man experiences changes in his usually reliable body and he can make two decisions which is to face it, deal with it, share the vulnerability with his partner, work on it together...or put his head in the sand and use porn when a full erection is not necessary and there is no-one there to judge him or make him feel emasculated. I'm not saying you and I would do that deliberately to our husbands, but that is what it feels like, ED is a horrible thing whether self inflicted or not.
> 
> Shame is a vile emotion that makes us act very badly at times.


This is exactly how it is with my husband. He chose to minimize the issue and invalidate my hurt. It was like if he acknowledged that it was hurtful to me, then he would also have to acknowledge that the ED actually was a big deal. Pride and shame are two sides of the same coin and neither of those sides would allow him to honestly deal with the issue.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wringo123 said:


> Pride and shame are two sides of the same coin . . .


Totally agree. And honesty, rigorous honesty, is the cure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> This is exactly how it is with my husband. He chose to minimize the issue and invalidate my hurt. It was like if he acknowledged that it was hurtful to me, then he would also have to acknowledge that the ED actually was a big deal. Pride and shame are two sides of the same coin and neither of those sides would allow him to honestly deal with the issue.


I have read threads in situations where if the husband has ED and will not deal with it, that the wife feels hurt as she is unable to obtain traditional sexual intimacy in the marriage. The husband gets his hopes up, tries, but ultimately can't get it up, both are left feeling emotionally wounded by the experience, and then a bitter fight and passive aggressive behavior follows. So let us look at the problem:

*PROBLEM A: *The wife needs sexual validation in knowing she can please her husband.

*PROBLEM B: *The husband needs sexual validation in knowing he can please his wife. 

In this situation it is very likely that BOTH have a strong sexual desire for one another and are capable of experiencing very high levels of sexual pleasure. In order for this to culminate in any form of shared intimacy, both partners needs to mature in how they each receive sexual validation. 

*SOLUTION A: *The wife needs to validate her husband's sexuality by sharing pleasure that she can create within herself for him.

*SOLUTION B: *The husband needs to validate his wife's sexuality by sharing pleasure that he can create within himself for her.

*Both of those solutions take a tremendous amount of self development* as we all fear that our partners will reject pleasure that is internalized instead of something attributed to our partner. It is about being vulnerable. Both solutions also tend to encourage one another to develop, and without realizing it they will also solve problems A&B.

*Ultimately sexual validation should come in the form of, "this is who I am, and I am not afraid to share that with you!"* If the husband can't take the first step, then the wife may have to lead. Ultimately it is a journey taken together. 

In LTR it can be easy to hide ourselves because we do not want to risk loosing our partners. When this happens in an LTR and a couple breaks up, there is often a glimpse at what this intimacy looks like. As they know they are passed the point of no return of loosing one another, they will finally open up and share who they actually are when saying good bye, as for the first time they no longer fear loosing each other. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

wringo123 said:


> ...I loved him. In almost every other way we were so good together...
> He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.


Wow, I can totally relate to this, particularly the "death by a thousand cuts". I think most of us understand that rejection of your spouse, for whatever reason, will build resentment and slowly destroy the love that holds a marriage together. Refusers always find a reason they use to justify what they are doing or blame to avoid the reality that they are in fact violating their wedding vows, just as much as an affair is a violation, IMO. Some people justify their refusing by saying it's the partners fault for not wooing them or doing something they disliked. If your partner is not wooing you the way you want, you need to teach them what you like. If you put your partner in "the doghouse" or you barter sex for errands, you are harming your marriage and breaking your wedding vows. Love and affection for each other should always have as few barriers as possible. I said this in another thread: 

"When my wife rejected me, I told her in therapy that she was making me feel like a rapist. She had no idea the damage she was causing to our marriage. Honestly, the one thing that makes a marriage unique is the love and sex. Shared activities are not a replacement. My wife thought our life and marriage was perfect. Until I said I hate this life and want a divorce. It took me 15 years to get to that point. Sooner or later most people get there. You don't have a marriage"

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/351674-needing-help-understanding-3.html#post16601210

Just as with my wife, the refuser usually has some psychological issue that needs to be worked out. In this case he has withdrawn from marriage with a porn addiction. I would bet there is a deeper issue, but if someone is unwilling to work through the issue with a counselor, there is little hope of recovery, IMO. For me, my wife had hangups that were established as a child that had to be overcome for us to have a chance. After a lot of counseling and threats of divorce, I now think there is a chance of success with my wife and I. We are having sex again... but I don't know yet if I can love her again... The chance of success would have been much higher had my wife been able to acknowledge her problem before I got to the point of falling out of love and researching divorce lawyers. At this point, I feel like she has to start from ground zero to build trust and love with me. But, I recognize that the divorce threat is the only thing that finally woke her up. Is it real, will it last? Most people say it won't. We'll see.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

wantshelp said:


> *For me, my wife had hangups that were established as a child that had to be overcome for us to have a chance.* After a lot of counseling and threats of divorce, I now think there is a chance of success with my wife and I. We are having sex again... but I don't know yet if I can love her again... The chance of success would have been much higher had my wife been able to acknowledge her problem before I got to the point of falling out of love and researching divorce lawyers. At this point, I feel like she has to start from ground zero to build trust and love with me. But, I recognizer that the divorce threat is the only thing that finally woke her up. Is it real, will it last? Most people say it won't. We'll see.


I read this a lot and suspect there are many issues from childhood that have been safely tucked away and are not revisited until threat of abandonment. It took 20 years of marriage for my H to talk about things from his childhood, and only then because his brother had already whistle-blown as a result of his own therapy. He was completely in denial, even labouring a point of what a great childhood he had. He now tells me things that hurt me a great deal, I can't even look at pictures of him as a child.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

badsanta said:


> *Ultimately sexual validation should come in the form of, "this is who I am, and I am not afraid to share that with you!"* If the husband can't take the first step, then the wife may have to lead. Ultimately it is a journey taken together.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Badsanta


Wow, very insightful post.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

wringo123 said:


> I have posted a couple of previous threads about my husband's ED and porn addiction and just wanted to
> share a few things with all the husbands and wives out there who deny their spouses a fulfilling intimate life
> 
> .... He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me, every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you. Every time he tried to rationalize his behavior and minimize my pain because " it wasn't about me", my love died a little bit. I dont hate him or resent him or am even mad at him, I just stopped loving him.
> ...


I am so sorry for your loss. Yes you H destroyed his marriage over porn. Yes, there are those addicted to porn and so it is a danger. There is a lot of evil porn out there as well.

However, I just posted a response to UMP about porn and I thought I would share a little bit of that here.

I have been married to the same wonderful woman that I dearly love for over 45 years. There was a time not long ago, when we drifted apart and were in a sex starved marriage where she refused to have sex. There was not sex for months and months and at one point I thought that there never again would be sex between us. Porn had nothing to do with that. With luck, a lot of introspection, change on my part and help from others I got my wife into counseling with a great sex therapist who helped saved our marriage.

One of the things (among many) that the Sex Therapist did was assign us as a couple to watch a Sinclair Institute Better Sex video and discuss what we saw and what our feelings were about various parts of the video. Let me assure you, it was porn, but explicit sexual acts among adult consenting couples who where trying to pleasure each other. They didn't have perfect bodies, they were real looking people.

So in a very real sense I have an opposite experience from you. I can point to where "porn" viewing with my wife was used as one of several methods to help save my marriage. 

Having said that, "porn" can be very bad for a marriage as you so well have pointed out.

I hope that you find happiness.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Young at Heart a sex therapist recommended the same. We only watched part of one but I think my w really responded to it. Women who don't watch porn and didn't talk about sex often have strange ideas about what is normal and abnormal and seeing open people talk about it can be very cathartic. (Btw people who do watch porn also can have funny ideas about sex)


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## LongParFour (Sep 21, 2016)

Capricious said:


> Not sure I agree with any of this at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Many couples will find that pornography (in moderation) enhances their intimacy. The same can be said about masturbation on your own or with a partner.




Agreed. My wife and I are anything but LD, and we watch porn (not all the time), I masturbate, we masturbate, you name it. I travel for work so masturbation is a must.

Speaking of, Be right back lol


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> *He killed it with a thousand cuts every time he chose porn over me,* every time he refused to acknowledge the pain he caused me and failed to understand the incredible crushing devastation to your self esteem it is to know that not even your own husband wants you.


I've been thinking about this post and other relationships that may be in similar situations, and this part really gets to me. Odds are this husband watched porn before he met his wife and likely continued watching it all throughout the courtship phase when things were going ecstatically great in the relationship. I'm not advocating for or against porn, but I'm just pointing out that it was most likely a preexisting condition that was always present even if such behavior may have remained hidden. 

But here the OP points to it as one of the primary causes of the relationship's demise. 

In my opinion if the husband developed ED, he was suffering from some form(s) of physical and/or mental health problems for which he was unable to overcome on his own. As adults we all understand the concept of "self medicating" and how some behaviors such as food, sleep, or masturbation are the goto choices to try and get yourself to feel better. Why would he not see a doctor or a psychologist? 

@wringo123 if your husband was someone that just never went to the doctor, or was frustrated with skyrocketing healthcare costs to the point that he could no longer tell you the name of his primary physician, perhaps you might point some of the blame to a failing healthcare system. Now a days if you actually want to have a meaningful conversation with your doctor, it will not happen unless it is someone you have been seeing on a regular basis for a few years. Then if the doctor can't help and finally decides to refer you to a therapist/psychologist, this person will not really be able to help you until they have also spent significant time with you. Are those things worth the investment? YES!!!! It is easy to see that from someone's point of view that stays away from the doctor to try and save money as the family budget struggles? NO!!!!

So if you want to point out a primary cause that harmed your relationship, you might want to consider your husband's lack of access to proper healthcare instead of blaming it on porn. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Whether it be porn, masturbation, or other means of solo pleasure, the issue ultimately is when one directs their sexual energy towards their solo activities in place of their SO. As some have stated here, there is nothing inherently wrong with porn, people can use it to enhance their sexual relationship with their SO, and likewise use it without diminishing their sexual energy towards their SO. However, for others it is not possible, and porn/masturbation is used to replace in some part the sexual relationship with their SO.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

badsanta said:


> @wringo123 if your husband was someone that just never went to the doctor, or was frustrated with skyrocketing healthcare costs to the point that he could no longer tell you the name of his primary physician, perhaps you might point some of the blame to a failing healthcare system. Now a days if you actually want to have a meaningful conversation with your doctor, it will not happen unless it is someone you have been seeing on a regular basis for a few years. Then if the doctor can't help and finally decides to refer you to a therapist/psychologist, this person will not really be able to help you until they have also spent significant time with you. Are those things worth the investment? YES!!!! It is easy to see that from someone's point of view that stays away from the doctor to try and save money as the family budget struggles? NO!!!!
> 
> So if you want to point out a primary cause that harmed your relationship, you might want to consider your husband's lack of access to proper healthcare instead of blaming it on porn.
> 
> ...


I wish it were a simple as that. He's actually pretty good about going to the doctor and taking care of health issues in general. He's had a couple of different prescriptions for ED meds over the years and has never used them with any consistency. What has got me to this point is his total disregard for my feelings about how badly it hurts me that he turned to porn instead of making any kind of real effort to address the problem. 

Having a physical relationship with me just isn't important enough to him to do the work to fix whatever the issue is. More to the point, the fact that it leaves me feeling totally undesirable and frustrated isn't even enough motivation. Over and over I hear from him and on this board and in the literature in general "it isn't about you"...well, I disagree. When he has made it plain that a sexual relationship with me isn't worth giving up porn, even when it leaves me feeling totally rejected and worthless, then it is all about me. If that isn't being rejected, I don't know what is.

He'd rather hurt me and destroy our relationship than deal with something that makes him feel bad about himself. It's that simple.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Whether it be porn, masturbation, or other means of solo pleasure, the issue ultimately is when one directs their sexual energy towards their solo activities in place of their SO. As some have stated here, there is nothing inherently wrong with porn, people can use it to enhance their sexual relationship with their SO, and likewise use it without diminishing their sexual energy towards their SO. However, for others it is not possible, and porn/masturbation is used to replace in some part the sexual relationship with their SO.


Yes that is it in a nutshell. 

What is interesting is why one person can use porn as harmless recreation and another person cannot. It becomes an overwhelming need which overtakes the same need to have physical intimacy with a partner. I think most women in this situation at some point will see themselves as the problem which makes it worse. We stop feeling sexy, so we do not initiate and there a viscous circle starts.

I think the only solution is to break the loop by getting to what he is really self-soothing for? Sometimes it is straight forward (stress at work for example) and other times it is more complex. I agree with badsanta that therapy is needed and probably considerably cheaper than divorce.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

peacem said:


> Yes that is it in a nutshell.
> 
> What is interesting is why one person can use porn as harmless recreation and another person cannot. It becomes an overwhelming need which overtakes the same need to have physical intimacy with a partner. I think most women in this situation at some point will see themselves as the problem which makes it worse. We stop feeling sexy, so we do not initiate and there a viscous circle starts.
> 
> I think the only solution is to break the loop by getting to what he is really self-soothing for? Sometimes it is straight forward (stress at work for example) and other times it is more complex. I agree with badsanta that therapy is needed and probably considerably cheaper than divorce.


For some it could simply be a drive mismatch. I am not a big porn person and tbh no clue if my W even watches. However, between the 2 of us I definitely have a higher drive. I could easily take care of myself in the morning while everyone is asleep and be ready for her later in the day with no impact. If she took care of herself most likely that would make her indifferent to starting anything later in the day, so with her I do believe she would be taking her sexual energy away from me. This doesn't mean I get free range to do whatever I want, just looking at a situation where drive mismatches are a main cause.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> Having a physical relationship with me just isn't important enough to him to do the work to fix whatever the issue is. More to the point, the fact that it leaves me feeling totally undesirable and frustrated isn't even enough motivation. Over and over I hear from him and on this board and in the literature in general "it isn't about you"...well, I disagree. When he has made it plain that a sexual relationship with me isn't worth giving up porn, even when it leaves me feeling totally rejected and worthless, then it is all about me. If that isn't being rejected, I don't know what is.
> 
> *He'd rather hurt me and destroy our relationship than deal with something that makes him feel bad about himself. It's that simple.*


I completely agree with the way you feel, but the first step of getting yourself out of this problem is to look at it from a similar point of view of men in sex-starved relationships where the wife is rejecting and refusing the husband's desires. 

My wife has rejected me countless numbers of times to the point that she wishes I would do something to mostly nullify my libido and stop pressuring her for sex. She has told me this. Imagine you spouse asking you to go to the doctor and have something done so that you don't want sex anymore. How is that for rejection? If that is not being rejected, I don't know what is. 

In my case one of the things that my wife was struggling with was that I was getting very hurt over the state of our intimate life, and SHE REALLY NEEDED ME TO NOT GET HURT OR UPSET OVER SEX. She needed to be able to tell me NO, and for me to still be there to comfort her without making things ugly or getting passive aggressive. 

*Did it hurt me every time she refused me sex? Yes.

Did I let this destroy my self confidence? No, I redirected my pain into becoming a better person for her because she needed me close to her and to just be patient. *

When did things start to improve? Once she saw me making an effort to not get so upset or hurt, she started putting an effort into meeting my desires in a loving and compassionate way. Things have since drastically improved. 

Now I'm not saying you are to blame in the problems with your husband, but once a spouse starts to complain or become too needy or impatient about sexual intimacy regardless of the reasons, THAT will destroy any chance of pleasure for the other partner male or female. Love needs to be patient. 

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I think the reason @badsanta 's wife responded well to him not getting upset and hurt is because those who withdraw from sex most likely feel very guilty. My husband talked a lot about feelings of guilt. Things improved here when I stopped getting upset and angry. I remember taking a more business like approach to communicating that didn't involve over emotional rants. It was similar to negotiating an international peace treaty. I am going to do .....I would like you to do....lets do together......we will trial it for a year....etc.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

@badsanta,

I appreciate you perspective, but in the past 8 years we have been intimate maybe a dozen times. We have never had full on intercourse. He has never gone more than 48 hours without porn.

I have been patient, I have been supportive, I have been pushy, I have been understanding, I have been quiet, I have been loud, I have been accepting, I have been sad, I have been angry. 

Now I am done.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

@wringo123 If you are done you are done. 

May I ask what your plan of action is to move forward?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

You could divorce or open the relationship. Divorce is better in your circumstance since you're completely out of love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

wringo123 said:


> ...in the past 8 years we have been intimate maybe a dozen times.


You have my sympathy. You're missing out on life. You deserve better. Ending this sounds like the right choice.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

I don't honestly know what I am going to do. We separated for awhile last year and during that time I really didn't miss him, but the thought of divorcing and starting all over again is kind of overwhelming to me right now. It is mostly the reason I ended up coming back. I just turned 55 and at this point I don't know if it is worth starting over. 

Part of me can see me being at least content in a celibate relationship, especially now that I really don't have any desire for anything more. Like I said in my opening post, we otherwise get along great and have a lot of common interests and a lot of fun together and I don't hate him and I'm not even mad at him. I just have accepted that he is a broken person that cannot change. And it never was so much about the lack of the physical act as it was about feeling devalued and replaced with porn. I can live without the physical act, as the past several years have proven, and I no longer care about being replaced. Another part of me is sick over the knowledge that I will never experience being truly and passionately loved. 

A lot of it depends on how he reacts, if at all, to the news that I have finally given up. Maybe I will get lucky and he will leave and I won't have to decide.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

wringo123 said:


> I don't honestly know what I am going to do. We separated for awhile last year and during that time I really didn't miss him, but the thought of divorcing and starting all over again is kind of overwhelming to me right now. It is mostly the reason I ended up coming back. I just turned 55 and at this point I don't know if it is worth starting over.
> 
> Part of me can see me being at least content in a celibate relationship, especially now that I really don't have any desire for anything more. Like I said in my opening post, we otherwise get along great and have a lot of common interests and a lot of fun together and I don't hate him and I'm not even mad at him. I just have accepted that he is a broken person that cannot change. And it never was so much about the lack of the physical act as it was about feeling devalued and replaced with porn. I can live without the physical act, as the past several years have proven, and I no longer care about being replaced. Another part of me is sick over the knowledge that I will never experience being truly and passionately loved.
> 
> A lot of it depends on how he reacts, if at all, to the news that I have finally given up. Maybe I will get lucky and he will leave and I won't have to decide.


My heart goes out to you. Each of us has the right to decide what we want out of life. You sound like you are working to convince yourself what you want. Which is your right.

May I suggest a book for you it is called Still Sexy After All These Years. It is based on interviews with a large number of women who either through divorce, death, or illness are without their husband as a sex partner. It is about how and what they do to preserve their sensuality and sexuality. Many, many different approaches into channeling their sensuality and sexuality in a life without their traditional sex partner. 

I hope you find happiness. If you do get back together, I strongly suggest a sex therapist to provide the two of you with counseling. A certified sex therapist is a marriage counselor with extra training in sexual problems between partners. Good luck.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> @badsanta,
> 
> I appreciate you perspective, but in the past 8 years we have been intimate maybe a dozen times. We have never had full on intercourse. He has never gone more than 48 hours without porn.
> 
> ...



I've also come across those who said they have tried doing everything and also tried doing nothing to no avail. I've also read in detail of individuals that are very passionate and with a strong sense of self confidence have every bit of enthusiasm drained out of them slowly as things grind on painfully year after year. 

While it is admirable to be selfless and help others, sometimes it can be hard to see that you are in a situation where you instead have to help yourself, pick yourself back up, get out, and move on with your life.

Now that you are done with that, here are the next wave of problems to brace yourself for:

• Rebound relationship for sex that has no underlying friendship.
• Emotional affair with someone still married. 
• Sudden increase in your household kitten population. 

Perhaps you can find solace in the following joke! A divorced woman desperate for companionship came across a genie that was willing to grant her one wish. They discussed her situation and after she complained about how difficult men were it was finally decided that she wished for her cat to be transformed into a handsome hunk. The genie granted this wish and vanished into thin air afterwards. There sat an incredibly handsome man that used to be her cat. He came up to her and started cuddling up next to her for some affection. The women was thrill beyond belief! She looked at the man and said they would now be the best of lovers. The man says, "you do remember that you had me neutered?" 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

wringo123 said:


> I don't honestly know what I am going to do. ....I just turned 55 and at this point I don't know if it is worth starting over. ....


I was also in a Sex Starved Marriage. Not as bad as yours, but pretty bad in other ways. 

Let me suggest the book by MW Davis, the Sex Starved Wife. For me one of the keys to turning my marriage around was to embrace something that MW Davis is an expert on and that is the 180. The idea is that if you have been trying something for a long time and it doesn't work, change the way you behave. It might just force your partner to treat you differently or at least stop traditional fights.

For example, I had been clingy in needing my wife's validation. I stopped being clingy and took charge of my own happiness. I had been into covert contracts to get my wife to have sex with me. I would do chores around the house and things for her in the expectation that she would say, what a great guy, let's have sex. My 180 was to give her unconditional love and expect nothing in return. I told myself that I would try different 180's for 6 months and work to save the marriage and if it didn't work, I would divorce her. It worked.

You know what is going on between you and your H. Get the MW Davis book and figure out some 180's. Try different ones and ultimately he may notice that you are a different you. That you are doing things differently so that the traditional response is no longer appropriate. That may cause you spouse to wonder what is going on and are unsure how to act around you.

Also don't underestimate what good a sex therapist can do in marriage counseling. 

Again. Good luck to you.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

I hate to sound like a negative Nellie shooting down all the advice because I truly do appreciate everyone who has taken the time and put some thought into responding....but

We've tried the therapy route. First thing we were told was the porn must stop. He couldn't even go 48 hours. After several months , thousands in co pays and zero progress I told him to stop. I could practically smell the relief coming from him.

I've read the Sex Starved wife. It was insightful but not really applicable. My husband is not low desire. He just can't get far enough past the ED to act on it and he won't do the hard work to get past the ED.

I don't know what is holding him back but whatever it is he is more scared of it than losing me.

And then there is the fact that I just don't care enough anymore to keep trying

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I remember a friend of mine was in a weird, abusive marriage - but she loved him dearly, and he gave her just enough affection and attention to keep her from leaving. When I asked her why she stays, she said "At the moment I still love him, but one day I will wake up and just not care anymore.".

And that is exactly what happened. She just needed to get to the point of just not caring either way. She woke up one morning, filled the car with her stuff and left. I didn't think she would ever do it.

So when you say 'I'm done' I believe you, but you need to act on it and heal outside the context of your marriage. 

If you really cannot leave for whatever reason I would at least advise that you get a fulfilling and exciting life outside the home that does not involve him. Really do the things you have always wanted to do, leave him to his porn and you get your own life. I wonder if seeing his wife enjoying her life tremendously without him may prompt him to change...I doubt it.... but at least you will be having a good time finding out.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Your marriage seems cold. I can understand how you would be at wits end. I have never experienced what you are going thru but I know what a passionate marraige can be. I would not trade it for anything. Not even for financial security.

Forget your H and think about what you want, while you still have the ability to make the choice. Now that I am in my mid 40, 55 does not seem that old. There is much life to be lived. So dont spend another day with someone who cant love you the way you need. You need to be able to live a life with passion and love in it. This is everyone's right.

Good luck. I wish you well and hope everything works out for you.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

peacem said:


> I remember a friend of mine was in a weird, abusive marriage - but she loved him dearly, and he gave her just enough affection and attention to keep her from leaving. When I asked her why she stays, she said "At the moment I still love him, but one day I will wake up and just not care anymore.".
> 
> And that is exactly what happened. She just needed to get to the point of just not caring either way. She woke up one morning, filled the car with her stuff and left. I didn't think she would ever do it.
> 
> ...


That's pretty much what happened to me...just woke up one day and realized I didn't care anymore. Actually, I think I have not cared for quite sometime, but continued old thought patterns and behavior just out of habit.

You are exactly right about getting a life outside of my marriage and I have been making baby steps towards that. One thing I am doing is planning my own personal vacation, without him. Going out west to visit friends and some family and I am really looking forward to it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> I just turned 55 and at this point I don't know if it is worth starting over.





wringo123 said:


> One thing I am doing is planning my own personal vacation, without him. Going out west to visit friends and some family and I am really looking forward to it.


Modern research suggest that human sexuality reaches a peak at age 60. This is an age where you no longer have to devote time and energy to raising a family, and there are no further risks of getting pregnant. In other words this is a time that you can devote to actually enjoying the fruits of a relationship.

Don't give up!

Badsanta


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> Your marriage seems cold.


It's not, really. It is definitely passionless, but, friendly, I guess would be the best description. He has been good for me in a lot of other ways. He is the only person I have ever had in my life that truly supported me emotionally and has wanted to see me grow and succeed, and who honestly thought that I could. That is part of what has been so frustrating and why I have stayed as long as I have. There was an intense emotional connection that craved a physical outlet. Being rejected physically has slowly but surely eroded the intense emotional connection and therefore, the desire for anything physical, but there is still a connection. I just haven't decided if it is enough for me to stay.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> .....there is still a connection. I just haven't decided if it is enough for me to stay.


Question? Have you ever tried to watch porn with your husband and talk openly about the aspects of what it is that he enjoys about it so much:

• he has fantasies that he is ashamed of or that are problematic due to his ED.
• he enjoys discovering new sexual novelties/ideas 
• it distracts him from ongoing emotional pain
• he does not care about the porn or masturbation but it serves a purpose to help get the aftereffects of the male sexual response (can be equivalent to taking a valium).

I know that sounds easier than done, but thought I would toss that idea out there.

Badsanta


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Legend said:


> What I'm saying is that pornography robs a marriage of a spouse's sexuality toward their mate. Masturbating while fantasizing about someone else also harms a marriage.


When one spouse has very little interest in sex, porn can be a god-send for the other spouse.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Legend said:


> What I'm saying is that pornography robs a marriage of a spouse's sexuality toward their mate. Masturbating while fantasizing about someone else also harms a marriage.


When one spouse has very little interest in sex, porn can be a god-send for the other spouse.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Question? Have you ever tried to watch porn with your husband and talk openly about the aspects of what it is that he enjoys about it so much:
> 
> • he has fantasies that he is ashamed of or that are problematic due to his ED.
> • he enjoys discovering new sexual novelties/ideas
> ...


I have suggested watching it together and he was somewhat receptive. I set it up to make it as easy as possible for him, but in the end he wouldn't do it. We have talked about what it is that he gets from it and it was difficult for him, but he did tell me. I won't give the specifics, but the first thing you listed is pretty close. Actually, the stuff I have found that he watches is pretty vanilla stuff considering all the crap that is out there. It's not soft core by any means, but nothing bizarre or extreme. And over the years, it seems to have been pretty stable...ie not escalating into the more extreme stuff.

One thing we did try that was somewhat successful was doing sensate focus exercises. I wouldn't say that he was enthusiastic but he went along with the program for awhile. We never progressed any farther than just touching, but even that was a pretty big step forward. We were doing it pretty regularly..once a week or so..then he got sick, then I got sick, then we had house guests, then we were guests at someone else's house and it just stopped. He didn't bring it back up and every time I thought about it, it became less and less appealing. That is kind of what brought me to where I am at now, when I realized that I just didn't care enough anymore to be the one to bring it up and make all the effort to make it happen
.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> I have suggested watching it together and he was somewhat receptive. I set it up to make it as easy as possible for him, but in the end he wouldn't do it. We have talked about what it is that he gets from it and it was difficult for him, but he did tell me. I won't give the specifics, but the first thing you listed is pretty close. Actually, the stuff I have found that he watches is pretty vanilla stuff considering all the crap that is out there. It's not soft core by any means, but nothing bizarre or extreme. And over the years, it seems to have been pretty stable...ie not escalating into the more extreme stuff.
> 
> One thing we did try that was somewhat successful was doing sensate focus exercises. I wouldn't say that he was enthusiastic but he went along with the program for awhile. We never progressed any farther than just touching, but even that was a pretty big step forward. We were doing it pretty regularly..once a week or so.. then he got sick, then I got sick, then we had house guests, then we were guests at someone else's house and it just stopped. He didn't bring it back up and every time I thought about it, it became less and less appealing. That is kind of what brought me to where I am at now, when I realized that I just didn't care enough anymore to be the one to bring it up and make all the effort to make it happen
> .


That actually sounds very positive given how ugly most things can tend to be! 

If your husband was uncomfortable watching porn with you, it is because he feels you will be too harsh and judgmental if he fully allows you into that world. 

In the event you want to continue to try somehow... Since his behavior with porn is problematic, you should not enable that pattern of behavior. Instead you may want to find a way to let him know that you care about him and that he should trust you enough to not be ashamed. 

Since you know what kind of porn he likes, if you are brave enough you could make a video of yourself doing something solo that you know he would enjoy watching later while he is alone. The purpose of that would be to allow him to experience his sexual ritual (whatever that may be) in privacy, but with the idea of you there in a way that is very present and conveying a message that you want to participate with him in a caring, trusting, and loving way. If you have never done this for him before, it would be an experience of shock and awe for him for which he should be very open to discussing if he was able to appreciate it. 

In the event you are not comfortable doing something like that, or fear that such a video may be shared/copied without your permission then don't do it, or talk to your husband first and ask him to help you with that aspect of things if he is interested. 

While I know it is difficult to get the motivation to be the one that has to do something to make things happen, you sound like someone that would regret walking away if there was something you could have done to get his attention and help him finally open up to you, and start being closer to you instead of porn. 

Perhaps this is a bad idea, but at least it might help give you an extra way to look at things and come up with an even better idea of you own.

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

@badsanta, thanks. I really appreciate all of your input.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I am only writing from my own experience but my H did not like me making porn - in theory it is a good idea. But he was very compartmentalised in wife/porn that it did nothing for him and set us a few steps back because of me feeling rejected/inadequate. It is risky, but certainly worth a try with cautionary notes.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> I am only writing from my own experience but my *H did not like me making porn* - in theory it is a good idea. But he was very compartmentalised in wife/porn that it did nothing for him and set us a few steps back because of me feeling rejected/inadequate. It is risky, but certainly worth a try with cautionary notes.


In my opinion explicit videos within the context of two spouses learning to communicate and trust one another should not be called porn. The video in this case would just be a tool used to communicate while at the same time respecting each other's privacy.

But as @peacem mentioned, some may find this type of idea unsettling, particularly in the event the husband does not like it for whatever reason and the resulting rejection could be painful. For that reason it would be a good idea to talk with your husband first and make sure that he is not only open to the idea but may even have some requests such as some sort of role playing theme.


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## LongParFour (Sep 21, 2016)

badsanta said:


> In my opinion explicit videos within the context of two spouses learning to communicate and trust one another should not be called porn. The video in this case would just be a tool used to communicate while at the same time respecting each other's privacy.
> 
> 
> 
> But as @peacem mentioned, some may find this type of idea unsettling, particularly in the event the husband does not like it for whatever reason and the resulting rejection could be painful. For that reason it would be a good idea to talk with your husband first and make sure that he is not only open to the idea but may even have some requests such as some sort of role playing theme.




Second. Instructional stuff like this is education.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

I have battled depression off and on my whole adult life and I don't recall being this down in ages. This whole situation has me dissecting every decision that I have made that got me to this place. It isn't a new revelation to me that I have always settled and have always been willing to accept less than what I deserve, but that knowledge is leaving me feeling defeated and depressed like I haven't felt in a long time.

Staying detached is just making me feel worse, but I also know that if I let myself get sucked in to keep trying with him that I will just end up getting disappointed again and the thought of that is just about more than I can bear.

Sorry having a bit of a pity party today...doesn't help that I am sick


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

wringo123 said:


> I have battled depression off and on my whole adult life and I don't recall being this down in ages. This whole situation has me dissecting every decision that I have made that got me to this place. It isn't a new revelation to me that I have always settled and have always been willing to accept less than what I deserve, but that knowledge is leaving me feeling defeated and depressed like I haven't felt in a long time.


It's hard to keep moving when you hate your life. I know. But, you can't beat yourself up over his choices. You're obviously a kind, thoughtful, rational, and caring person. These are all very attractive qualities. Don't sell yourself short. Put yourself first. If there is a purpose to life, it is to experience the warmth and love of a partner that cares for you. Don't give up on that. 

... pity party cancelled!


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Capricious said:


> Not sure I agree with any of this at all.
> 
> Many couples will find that pornography (in moderation) enhances their intimacy. The same can be said about masturbation I the in your own or with a partner.


There are many men whose primary sex life is the internet and it does interfere with their marriage. I have no doubt about that. However, like anything else, in moderation, porn can enhance a sex life. I look at porn a little bit each week and my wife reads explicit romance novels. Makes us both horny so we have sex more often.

If you read my profile you will note that we were in a non monogamous marriage and so we avoided many of the problems that those in traditional marriages face. Surprisingly enough we never had a problem due to our type of marriage but I never recommend my kind of marriage because most never work out like mine did. My wife just remarked that we never even had an argument with the woman we shared. Hard for others to believe, but for us it was just our normal life and we gave it no more thought than a monogamous couple does. Just wanted to give you a little background.

What I want to say is that porn may not be the problem. Porn may be your husband's solution to the real problem. You may eliminate the porn and masturbation, but if the problem is that he wants sex differently or more often than you are willing to do, the problem has not gone away. I am an oldtimer and there is little I have not done sexually. I have heard many husbands and wives complain that their spouse refuses to do certain things sexually. Could be anything as mainstream as oral sex to the more exotic fetishes. Some men and women will cheat to get their sexual needs met, while most will turn to porn or romance novels. Even if sexual needs are met, most of us still enjoy erotic thoughts whether seen or read. We are hardwired that way.

Just be aware that you are dealing with a chicken and egg situation and have to figure out which came first, the porn or a problem in your sex life. If your husband is into a fetish and you are not, removing his outlet to satisfy his fetish can result in a larger problem than you originally had.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> *I have battled depression off and on my whole adult life* and I don't recall being this down in ages. This whole situation has me dissecting every decision that I have made that got me to this place. It isn't a new revelation to me that I have always settled and have always been willing to accept less than what I deserve, but that knowledge is leaving me feeling defeated and depressed like I haven't felt in a long time.
> 
> *Staying detached is just making me feel worse, but I also know that if I let myself get sucked in to keep trying with him that I will just end up getting disappointed again and the thought of that is just about more than I can bear.
> *
> Sorry having a bit of a pity party today...doesn't help that I am sick


*
You should explain exactly this to your husband, and tell him that if you are going to keep trying to improve things in your marriage, but that you can ONLY do so with his help. *

It is one thing to argue with a spouse and insist that they need to stop watching porn, but it is something completely different to ask your spouse for some extra compassion because you are hurting and need his help. 

Badsanta


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## Imissmywife (Jan 29, 2016)

Before we were married 18 years ago my wife and I used to watch porn sometimes as a type of foreplay and other times it was rolling while we were rolling. Nothing extreme, but anything from couples porn, threesomes, and lesbian (her idea). My gal was smoking hot and wanted sex all the time. Over the last 10 years she has been putting on weight......enough that it is now a turnoff. She knows it and I know it. I still love the woman on the inside, but just don't feel the desire to be sexual. I'm angry that, although she has known from day one that weight is a HUGE issue for me, she has let herself go.

I still have desires and needs, so I take care of them myself.....sometimes with just my thoughts and our old memories, and other times with porn. I'm not lusting after the women in the porn, but I ALWAYS picture that my wife is that woman doing the things we used to do.

If I missed it I apologize but how much physically has the OP changed? Men are visual creatures and we are wired that way.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Imissmywife said:


> If I missed it I apologize but how much physically has the OP changed? Men are visual creatures and we are wired that way.


I agree *excessive* weight gain is preventable and we should all do our best to be as sexually attractive as possible. We are all visual regardless of gender but to a certain degree we have to accept that our partners are not going to stay 22 forever, will not have perfect young bodies forever, or the sexual energy that we used to have. If we focus exclusively on physical changes then the sexual desire we have for our partners will quickly fade for us all. I think being visually attracted to my spouse has a 10% role - much of my attraction to him comes from a deeper, more spiritual level that I can't quite explain. I think if the problems of the OP relationship was based on aesthetics alone then it probably isn't worth saving anyway because it is a very tenuous connection to hold onto. No, I suspect there is a lot more complexity going on with her H that maybe he doesn't quite understand himself yet, or something he does understand and is keeping secret.


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