# After a night out with my buddy, I am going to have to say PUA books are overrated



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Being on TAM does induce a little bit of paranoia in me. One of the things I have noticed in the Men's lounge is that there are a few posters that are pretty vocal about the dangers of PUAs. Some even seem to imply that an expert PUA can pretty much have his way with any woman. One guy who I think got banned even put "science" into it and said that a ovulating woman would cheat if the right PUA approached her.

With this in mind I couldn't turn down a chance to go out with some of my guy friends knowing that one of us was recently divorced and has pretty much made PUA books his bible. He explained to us how it works but all I got out of his explanation was something to do with numbers/ratios/body language etc. None of it made sense to me.

We sat at the bar and watched him put his theories to work. Long story short FAIL!!! Don't get me wrong its not like he got shot down by every woman but he did get shot down by most of them. At the end of the night he ended up with a handful of numbers. I guess I just thought the techniques in the books would work better. I actually think he would've been better off just being himself instead of relying on tips from the books.

I guess after everything I read on here I'm shocked he ended up going home alone. I know observing one guy isn't exactly a complete study, but I'm going to have to say that if you are happily married and worried about the new age of PUAs. Don't be.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What's a PUA?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I think pick up artist.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

He was doing it wrong.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

I've never read on PUA techniques. To me it has always been a numbers game if you're trying to date a lot of women you have to approach a ton of them. If my goal was to go home with someone that night I had to read the girl quickly and move on. I rarely called a lady I met at a club so I never played it like that. Sometimes turning down a number can lead to bigger and better things. Also, if you're really going hard out there you're going to wake up next to some women you probably wish you hadn't  Its all part of the game.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> He was doing it wrong.


I imagine him with his book out reviewing highlighted sections before walking over and approaching some lady.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Deejo said:


> He was doing it wrong.


Or he approached the wrong kind of women... If he had only gone after those women with low self esteem, it would have worked


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

So now, here's the thing ...

If your now divorced buddy, prior to his divorce felt unsure of himself, a bit lost, had his self-esteem put through a meat grinder and you're now telling me that he's out in bars, taking risks and getting phone numbers then I can only say ...

Kudos to him.
To me ... that is the point of reading a 'PUA' or dating book. Gets you back in the game, and makes you aware of some of the rules.

If he invited you out with him to demonstrate his ability to get a woman into bed ... then really ... what's the point? It's quite silly.

Don't know his circumstances or what the nature of your relationship is with your bud. But ... at first blush, if he was out, interacting and meeting people and getting phone numbers than hopefully you're happy for him.

If you saw him as being patently unlike the person he is and being deceitful ... call him on it.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Given enough time, a hypothetical chimpanzee typing at random would, as part of its output, almost surely produce one of Shakespeare's plays.

The same holds true for “Pick Up Artists”.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> :rofl:
> 30% are fake, 80% won't pick up the call.
> 
> As the Resident Clubber™ and female studier/recipient of PUA, that sounds about right.
> ...


^ This. Exactly.

Entertainment for kids and for those whose primary motivation in life is to get 'laid like tile'.

Shrug, thats fine. Good luck to them. These guys and gals on both sides of the meat market equation are fun to watch though. You can just about predict the thrust , parry, riposte and surrender when it happens. Still seems to be the bar scene is the single *worst* place to go shopping for a potential mate. Fling? yep. Mate - nope.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Deejo said:


> ..To me ... that is the point of reading a 'PUA' or dating book. Gets you back in the game, and makes you aware of some of the rules...


really? you are serious?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

So I wonder, how one becomes a PUA outside of the bar scene setting. It seems that the situation sets itself up for the very possibility that even Barney Fife can get laid. 

I guess, if I find myself single ever again, I am in big trouble. I don't drink anymore and most bars are too noisy for us folks over fifty to carry on a conversation. "huh, what did you say, what, what, huh?"

Building confidence is great, but being oneself goes a long way... seems I keep hearing about bait and switch happening on TAM all the time. Wouldn't trying to be a PUA to get the girl and then switching back to oneself be a bit of dishonesty?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

drerio said:


> Or he approached the wrong kind of women... If he had only gone after those women with low self esteem, it would have worked


Yeah ... but that isn't a pickup artist. That guy is a predator.

Ever read "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell"? It left me with the firm belief, that there an awful lot of emotionally empty people out there, bordering on sociopathy. And they celebrate it ...

I've made no bones about the fact that I've read lots of PUA and relationship books.

They helped me be a better and more attentive partner; not a guy that was looking to get chicks in the sack.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

anotherguy said:


> really? you are serious?


Sure ...

Which ones have you read again?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

drerio said:


> Building confidence is great, but being oneself goes a long way... seems I keep hearing about bait and switch happening on TAM all the time. Wouldn't trying to be a PUA to get the girl and then switching back to oneself be a bit of dishonesty?


Yes indeed. It would.

For the record, the term PUA absolutely sounds cheesy. Worse still would be Mystery's turn of phrase which is 'Venusian Artist'

I can tell you that all I gleaned and practiced were on real dates. I also now tend to engage people in general, not just women ... without the expectation of an outcome; just enjoy the exchange.

I'm not preaching Pickup or how to bag a babe.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Yeah ... but that isn't a pickup artist. That guy is a predator.
> 
> Ever read "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell"? It left me with the firm belief, that there an awful lot of emotionally empty people out there, bordering on sociopathy. And they celebrate it ...
> 
> ...


Fair enough... I guess I am not informed enough to recognized the difference between a PUA and a predator. I just prefer to be myself.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

laugh. this for one:

Mystery, The Pick Up Artist | Cracked.com


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Yes indeed. It would.
> 
> For the record, the term PUA absolutely sounds cheesy. Worse still would be Mystery's turn of phrase which is 'Venusian Artist'
> 
> ...


Sounds like moving from being a kid to being an adult. And as such if this is really is what these books preach then they should change the semantics, from PUA to being an adult male.

ETA: I can only assume that PUA slant, affords the opportunity for more book sales than trying to tell a person to just grow up.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

drerio said:


> Fair enough... I guess I am not informed enough to recognized the difference between a PUA and a predator. I just prefer to be myself.


They may be one and the same.

Sticky subject for me. Don't feel compelled to defend it. Certainly don't feel inclined to apply the term to myself, but ... I did read the books.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

drerio said:


> Sounds like moving from being a kid to being an adult. And as such if this is really is what these books preach then they should change the semantics, from PUA to being an adult male.


Its game playing to get a superficial payoff. Thats fine - but lets not pretend this is about how to build the foundation of a stable relationship. Its nothing of the kind. Its about getting, playing, a woman into bed, period. 

"The Neg". Nice....

Observer review: The Game by Neil Strauss | Books | The Observer

blah blah blah...

funny line: _...And so most of The Game, ostensibly a narrative of daredevil sexuality, is actually shrouded in a depressing odour of stale male sweat...._
Review: Neil Strauss's The Game and Tony Clink's The Layguide | Books | The Guardian


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

FrenchFry said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like.

No hyperbole or displaced outrage. I like your perspective.

It is what it is. Cheesy is as cheesy does.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Cheesy is as cheesy does.


:iagree:


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Deejo said:


> So now, here's the thing ...
> 
> If your now divorced buddy, prior to his divorce felt unsure of himself, a bit lost, had his self-esteem put through a meat grinder and you're now telling me that he's out in bars, taking risks and getting phone numbers then I can only say ...
> 
> ...


The first scenario. His old lady reduced his self esteem to rubble. I actually discovered TAM because I was trying to help him. You know its bad when my wife was even telling me he needed to start sticking up for himself (he was married to her friend). By the time he did it was too late. His wife had completely checked out. He could've set his hair on fire and she would not have noticed. There was no affair or anything. She just decided she didn't love him anymore and they lived like room mates for almost three years.

We didn't make fun of him or anything. We were happy to see him regaining his confidence. I guess I just expected to see his ratio of success be higher. Makes me realize how gullible I am, I actually thought PUA books were becoming so popular because they actually worked. I don't worry about him taking advantage of anyone or being deceitful. He is an all around good guy. He'll make wife number 2 a good husband when he finds her.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think it's a safe assumption that a guy in a healthy and sexually fulfilling marriage is getting more action than even the best PUA's.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ReformedHubby said:


> The first scenario. His old lady reduced his self esteem to rubble. I actually discovered TAM because I was trying to help him. You know its bad when my wife was even telling me he needed to start sticking up for himself (he was married to her friend). By the time he did it was too late. His wife had completely checked out. He could've set his hair on fire and she would not have noticed. There was no affair or anything. She just decided she didn't love him anymore and they lived like room mates for almost three years.
> 
> We didn't make fun of him or anything. We were happy to see him regaining his confidence. I guess I just expected to see his ratio of success be higher. Makes me realize how gullible I am, I actually thought PUA books were becoming so popular because they actually worked. I don't worry about him taking advantage of anyone or being deceitful. He is an all around good guy. He'll make wife number 2 a good husband when he finds her.


Yeah ... what you laid out about your friend is what I tend to see as well.
Glad he found his feet again, and sounds like he has a great support system in you as a friend.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

FrenchFry said:


> I'll tell you the best outcome and what I hope for your friend of PUA is dudes like Deejo who take the good social stuff in the books and apply it to make themselves an overall awesome human being.
> 
> The worst outcome is he buys too tight v neck polyester, gets a blowout and a tribal band tattoo around his arm and starts approaching every girl with "sexy sexy sexy" like this dude right here. Don't let that happen. (video cusses a lot, don't watch it at work.)


Oh my ...


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> One guy who I think got banned even put "science" into it and said that a menstruating woman would cheat if the right PUA approached her.


Well I followed this advice to the letter and nearly got my head bitten clean off.

Turns out it's OVULATING women. Cheers fella!


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

I read one book and skimmed a few of the blogs. Do some guys really treat this as the sacrosanct last word on dating? Seems like too much work for minimal payoff, to me.

Glad it helped your buddy's confidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Well I followed this advice to the letter and nearly got my head bitten clean off.
> 
> Turns out it's OVULATING women. Cheers fella!


LOL, ooops. I meant ovulating. I can't remember who the poster was that said it, but he was definitely someone who was in a lot of pain from a failed marriage.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Yeah ... what you laid out about your friend is what I tend to see as well.
> Glad he found his feet again, and sounds like he has a great support system in you as a friend.


One thing I learned from this experience is that men don't seem to have as much of a support system in place when they get divorced. Even his wife's friends and family that disagreed with her for leaving him rallied around her for support. Heck, no one even tried to talk her into reconsidering. 

He on the other hand was basically relegated to his lonely one bedroom apartment. To make matters worse most of our mutual friends were advising him to get out there and "get some". Seriously? The dude was majorly depressed. Sex was the last thing on his mind. 

I think we as men need to reconsider how we support our friends that are going through a divorce. We crack too many jokes about their situation in front of them, and we too often assume that getting them laid or drunk or both will make them feel better.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ReformedHubby said:


> One thing I learned from this experience is that men don't seem to have as much of a support system in place when they get divorced. Even his wife's friends and family that disagreed with her for leaving him rallied around her for support. Heck, no one even tried to talk her into reconsidering.
> 
> He on the other hand was basically relegated to his lonely one bedroom apartment. To make matters worse most of our mutual friends were advising him to get out there and "get some". Seriously? The dude was majorly depressed. Sex was the last thing on his mind.
> 
> I think we as men need to reconsider how we support our friends that are going through a divorce. We crack too many jokes about their situation in front of them, and we too often assume that getting them laid or drunk or both will make them feel better.


This post is pure gold.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> ... Long story short FAIL!!! ... At the end of the night he ended up with a handful of numbers. ....


How is a handful of numbers a fail?

I don't subscribe to all of that PUA stuff, but I KNOW some of it works. An confident and cool approach seems to work pretty well. I would never recommend anyone sit there and memorize lines on what to say to a woman, but you gotta have game to play the game.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

tulsy said:


> How is a handful of numbers a fail?
> 
> I don't subscribe to all of that PUA stuff, but I KNOW some of it works. An confident and cool approach seems to work pretty well. I would never recommend anyone sit there and memorize lines on what to say to a woman, but you gotta have game to play the game.


Description is clear... having game = predator. Developing a serious relationship is not a game.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

drerio said:


> Description is clear... having game = predator. Developing a serious relationship is not a game.


No, not in every case. Having game isn't all negative and "predatory". Having game is the ability to pick up chicks, most guys need and benefit from it, and really it's about confidence which any woman will tell you is an extremely attractive quality. 

Having game can be as simple as being confident enough to strike up conversation with a woman or group of women and seeing which, if any appeal to you in any way. 

I see guys all the time ogling the female bartenders or waitresses, thinking they may have chance because she is flirty (which is a part of her job). Truth be told, you need SERIOUS game to pick up one of these type and most guys don't have it.

Having "game" can be a single guy who has the balls to get up, walk over to a woman and attempt to engage in conversation.

Developing a serious relationship often starts from game. If I didn't have game, I would never have approached my currently girlfriend in a bistro years ago. We talked, she laughed at my jokes, and we really hit if off.

Don't knock it if you don't got it. It's not just for creeps. BTW, girls have game too.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

LOL,
Of course PUA books are overrated.

TAM is also way " overrated " too, according to some threads and rants I've read here lately .I've seen quite a few posters say that the Social Section of TAM is the only good sub forum here.
Using the same logic, if 1 sub forum out of 22 forums is considered " good " by a few people then TAM _must_ be waaaaaay overrated..lol!

The reality is, anything taken to the extreme can be considered overrated.
Anal sex, blowjobs ,marriage , university degrees ,pop culture , c*cktails, politics and everything else.

The general rule being common sense. Not all advice given in a book was meant to be used by everyone in every single situation.

I know for sure that my culinary skills way exceed that of half of the women on TAM and I have NEVER used a recipe from a cookbook.

So yes,
Cookbooks too can be VERY overrated, but are they really for those who have had success with them?

Or is it that human beings are complex, and that what works for one subset of people may not necessarily apply to the entire set?

_But who am I to judge if it works for them?_

BTW, Clubbing IMO, is very overrated and only juveniles can really enjoy that type of environment where loud jarring beats assault your eardrums , senseless lyrics appeal to your baser consciousness , and excessive alcohol is consumed to blunt the effects of it.

See?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

tulsy said:


> How is a handful of numbers a fail?
> 
> I don't subscribe to all of that PUA stuff, but I KNOW some of it works. An confident and cool approach seems to work pretty well. I would never recommend anyone sit there and memorize lines on what to say to a woman, but you gotta have game to play the game.


Good point. I guess I was just expecting to see him get and hold the attention of 9s and dimes. I realize now that it was unrealistic. I was swayed by how much he believed in the books, and also very heavily biased by past comments I had read on here (I really don't get out much). 

Everything I've read on TAM says the following (this is slightly exaggerated)

1) If you are a 40 year old man you are a stud and irresistible to all women (He's almost 40).

2) Rules state that a woman on a GNO will immediately sleep with the first man that says "hello".

2a) If the woman on a GNO has a toxic friend with her than its bonus time. The man that says "hello" to them can pick more than one to hook up with.

3) Pick up artists can seduce anyone. Even a nun 

Based on what I learned on TAM I thought he would be treated like a celebrity


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I never assumed that PUA books were overrated. I never read any of them. I just assumed that acting like a mature (and confident) adult was what women were attracted to. Thus, I only critique the marketing scheme. I guess telling a guy he can pick up any girl he wants sells more than telling him to just grow up. Am, I wrong? 

We all get to take or give to TAM how we see it. Is is overrated? I don't know, I guess it would depend on what you are looking for in your life, marriage, etc. There are some people who are simply lonely and find friendship here. There are others who have been hurt and looking for healing, and others who just need to vent and find some form of cathartic cleansing. Whatever the case, it is overrated if what you seek you cannot find. I guess the same can be said for PUA books. If one seeks after something and discovers, to that person it is not overrated. It works for some, it may not be for all.

ETA: but it is simply my opinion that real relationships are not games. Just my opinion, no one has to agree.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ReformedHubby said:


> Good point. I guess I was just expecting to see him get and hold the attention of 9s and dimes. I realize now that it was unrealistic. I was swayed by how much he believed in the books, and also very heavily biased by past comments I had read on here (I really don't get out much).
> 
> Everything I've read on TAM says the following (this is slightly exaggerated)
> 
> ...


I don't know about the rest of them, but I enthusiastically support the first point.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I think the concept of casual sex, friends with benefits and one night stands, fall squarely in the realm of PUA's. 
They go hand in hand.

1]A woman is not going to have a one night stand with the socially inept fellow who's too shy to approach her.

2]A woman is not going to have casual sex with a guy who's emotionally clingy especially if she doesn't want to be in a committed relationship at that point and time, but wants to have sex.

3]A woman is not going to be " friends with benefits" with a guy who attaches emotional value to sex, because he sees himself as mature, and no longer interested in playing games.

The guy those three women would have sex with, most likely would be a guy who does not attach much value to sex , or Pick Up Artiste. 

Its really kind of contradictory for women to say that nothing's wrong with casual sex , FWB's and ONS whilst at the same time condemning PUA's.:scratchhead:

As long as there are women willing to have FWB's , ONS, and casual sex encounters., then there would be men willing to facilitate their needs.
Most times, these type of men can be identified as PUA's.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I was so fed up with "games" by the time I was back on my feet from the split that I wouldn't have considered taking a tutorial on getting a date. What works for me is letting a potential lady do the talking so I can filter out all the BS and decide if I'm going to invest any time with her. No more trying to impress, for me.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think the concept of casual sex, friends with benefits and one night stands, fall squarely in the realm of PUA's.
> They go hand in hand.
> 
> 1]A woman is not going to have a one night stand with the socially inept fellow who's too shy to approach her.
> ...


I think you are right. I've known my friend since before he started dating his ex-wife. He wasn't what I would describe as confident. She was actually his first girlfriend. I think he believes so much in the books because now that he is talking to women he is finding that some are interested. The books provided advice on how to approach women and that has given him confidence. So I guess for him it has been money well spent. However, I still maintain that the outlandish claims they make to sell seminars and books are unrealistic.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> However, I still maintain that the outlandish claims they make to sell seminars and books are unrealistic.


Of course they are unrealistic!
Its all about making money. 
So too are men's multivitamin pills , Erectile dysfunction
" _performance_ " pills or those " add three inches to your penis " pills.

Fact is that there are not many women and men out there who are emotionally mature. It can be difficult to find an emotionally mature person without issues under the age 40.
IMO, generally speaking,self actualization begins somewhere around 35.
The problem is that most of them simply don't know it , because they have not really experienced life.

PUA's , FWB, ONS , and casual sex are constructs that came about as a function of this lack of experience in the fullness, richness and beauty of life.
Many in their 20's still see themselves in their juvenescence.

Can a 40+ yr old man be a good PUA?.
Do over 40 tend to be more selective in their choices of sexual partners?

But lets not confuse long term dating game with PUA tactics.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Reformed Hubby, did your friend believe those same four things you listed out above? As in, did the books he was reading make him believe those things, too?

Also, like tulsy, I figured getting a handful of numbers was a success, too. I mean it is true that maybe all the numbers were fake numbers....but maybe they weren't. Do you know if he called any of the women?

Something I'd like to throw out here is that there is Good Dating Practice advice available that isn't PUA advice. If guys need to ease back into dating after divorce, or even for never married guys, they can find other information that is actually for either gender, works the same for anyone, and yes it can actually be applied to FWB and ONS situations, too...ethically.

But I suspect that a man who is lacking confidence would rather read a book that promises the average 40 y/o a bevvy of 9 and 10 beauties will be on his doorstep.


.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> The worst outcome is he buys too tight v neck polyester, gets a blowout and a tribal band tattoo around his arm and starts approaching every girl with "sexy sexy sexy" like this dude right here. Don't let that happen. (video cusses a lot, don't watch it at work.)


Oy...I'm pretty sure that dude is gay...

Also, when did acting desperate enter into the PUA playbook? "Can I please come in the car with you?? Please??" What a freak, why are those guys listening to him for 40 minutes.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Reformed Hubby, did your friend believe those same four things you listed out above? As in, did the books he was reading make him believe those things, too?
> 
> Also, like tulsy, I figured getting a handful of numbers was a success, too. I mean it is true that maybe all the numbers were fake numbers....but maybe they weren't. Do you know if he called any of the women?
> 
> ...


If you are referring to my post about 40 year old men, and how easy it is pick up women on GNO I was just being silly and greatly exaggerating some of the things I've read in the men's lounge. I won't say he believes he can pick up any woman he wants, but he definitely thinks he has a shot at woman that would never have given the old him the time of day.

I haven't talked to him since the weekend so I don't know if he got any dates lined up yet. He has been on a handful of dates. He hasn't found anyone he really likes though. I wouldn't blame him if he is afraid that he might choose the wrong woman again.

I'm not trying to analyze his psyche but I think he was drawn to the books because he really felt that he needed an "edge". I don't think a gender neutral guide would have appealed to him.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> One thing I learned from this experience is that men don't seem to have as much of a support system in place when they get divorced. Even his wife's friends and family that disagreed with her for leaving him rallied around her for support. Heck, no one even tried to talk her into reconsidering.
> 
> He on the other hand was basically relegated to his lonely one bedroom apartment. To make matters worse most of our mutual friends were advising him to get out there and "get some". Seriously? The dude was majorly depressed. Sex was the last thing on his mind.
> 
> *I think we as men need to reconsider how we support our friends that are going through a divorce. We crack too many jokes about their situation in front of them, and we too often assume that getting them laid or drunk or both will make them feel better.*


:iagree:
Dating over 40 is an entirely , different ball game.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so if a wife goes out to bars on a GNO with a divorced friend that is looking to pick up men. The board goes ape sh!t about how wrong it is. (which I do believe is boundary crossing)

Yet if a married man posts (just based on OP's screen name) that he went out on a GNO with a divorced friend looking to pick up women, the board instead argues over the effectiveness of the PUA method.


um, seriously?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

That's hyperbole AR...or hysterectomy...or...wait...there's another word for what you're describing. Just can't think of it, but you showed it.


Hyperspace? No. Damn.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Hippocratic oath?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> Hippocratic oath?


Sounds almost right.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Not talking about pickup so much as why ReformedHubby's friend chose to read pickup books in the first place. A question I presumed the answer to, and RH verified.

As for girls nights out vs. guys night out? I find the entire subject for either gender a red herring of an excuse for relationships already at risk. Going out isn't the problem, what your spouse thinks of your relationship is.

The word you are looking for is hypo-crispys ... I think.

For those that do want to read about game, there is a tiny little thread here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/69905-pickup-game-never-ever-works-ever.html


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

*After a night out with my buddy, I am going to have to say PUA books are overra*

Deejo you can't pretend the discussion would have gone the same way if OP was a woman. It would be completely about how OP should not cross such boundaries and is putting themselves on a risky situation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

AR said: "so if a wife goes out to bars on a GNO with a divorced friend that is looking to pick up men. The board goes ape sh!t about how wrong it is. (which I do believe is boundary crossing)"

Really? I haven't seen any threads like this, but I have done this several times. I love matchmaking and helping friends with dating advice. (Sometime to even include FWB advice). I wouldn't take a she-friend to a dance club to pick up dudes, but to just a bar or restaurant? Or other event, plays, art museums, REAL dancing classes? Done it many times, just did it earlier this week. My husband went with us on that particular trip because a couple other gals brought boyfriends, but there were two single female friends there and I was scoping out every guy in the bar with her tastes in mind, seeing if there were any matches in there.

Usually husband doesn't go, though.

Really? There have been threads like that?

.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

*After a night out with my buddy, I am going to have to say PUA books are overra*

Really FW?
GNO threads pop up at least once a week on TAM


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> AR said: "so if a wife goes out to bars on a GNO with a divorced friend that is looking to pick up men. The board goes ape sh!t about how wrong it is. (which I do believe is boundary crossing)"
> 
> *Really? I haven't seen any threads like this*, but I have done this several times. I love matchmaking and helping friends with dating advice. (Sometime to even include FWB advice). I wouldn't take a she-friend to a dance club to pick up dudes, but to just a bar or restaurant? Or other event, plays, art museums, REAL dancing classes? Done it many times, just did it earlier this week. My husband went with us on that particular trip because a couple other gals brought boyfriends, but there were two single female friends there and I was scoping out every guy in the bar with her tastes in mind, seeing if there were any matches in there.
> 
> ...


You're joking, right? You've been here, how long now? And you haven't seen ONE thread where women get beat up for going on a GNO? Seriously? How about RH's thread about his own wife planning to go out with HER friend...turned out it was what was thought, but wife was clueless (or said she was, I believe). But AR is right. That double standard BS is all over the place regarding GNO vs BNO. S'mon now... you SERIOUSLY have never seen such threads??? Wow....


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hippopotamus? Hippocampus.....it's right there....sooooo close!

:rofl:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It sounded to me like a group of guy friends just went out to dinner and drinks....not like a dance clubbin', sloppy bump and grind GNO.

The way the original post sounded, wives could have come along, too. It sounded like just one of the guys was divorced and the others were married, and that the one guy was doing his thing but the others weren't all up on other women doing the same.

This one sounds different, yes the types you are talking about, I have read tons of those threads. That doesn't taste like the same flavor as this one.

.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> It sounded to me like a group of guy friends just went out to dinner and drinks....not like a dance clubbin', sloppy bump and grind GNO.
> 
> The way the original post sounded, wives could have come along, too. It sounded like just one of the guys was divorced and the others were married, and that the one guy was doing his thing but the others weren't all up on other women doing the same.
> 
> ...


Just sent you a PM.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

LMAO... Not for nothing, but why post that you sent someone a PM? That's always seemed high school like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> It sounded to me like a *group of guy friends just went out to dinner and drinks.*...not like a dance clubbin', sloppy bump and grind GNO.
> 
> The way the original post sounded, *wives could have come along, too.* It sounded like just one of the guys was divorced and the others were married, and that the one guy was doing his thing but the others weren't all up on other women doing the same.
> 
> ...





ReformedHubby said:


> With this in mind *I couldn't turn down a chance to go out with some of my guy friends knowing that one of us was recently divorced and has pretty much made PUA books his bible*. He explained to us how it works but all I got out of his explanation was something to do with numbers/ratios/body language etc. None of it made sense to me.
> 
> *We sat at the bar and watched* him put his theories to work. Long story short FAIL!!! Don't get me wrong its not like he got shot down by every woman but he did get shot down by most of them. At the end of the night he ended up with a handful of numbers. I guess I just thought the techniques in the books would work better. I actually think he would've been better off just being himself instead of relying on tips from the books.
> 
> I guess after everything I read on here I'm shocked he ended up going home alone. I know observing one guy isn't exactly a complete study, but I'm going to have to say that if you are happily married and worried about the new age of PUAs. Don't be.


Now, while RH said he didn't partake, I find it odd that he would jump at the chance to go out to a bar with his friend(s), knowing the intent of the outing...when he was lamenting the likelihood of the SAME THING from his wife's planned outing. Come on, FW, you know this wasn't just "dinner and drinks"... the OP, himself, said the intent was to go watch his buddy try to pick up women. Please. Give me a break. This is double standard about GNO/BNO, and you very well know it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: After a night out with my buddy, I am going to have to say PUA books are overra*



Almostrecovered said:


> Deejo you can't pretend the discussion would have gone the same way if OP was a woman. It would be completely about how OP should not cross such boundaries and is putting themselves on a risky situation.


Why derail an argument on one hot subject just to argue about another one?

Different participants as far as I can tell. Although I remember RH's story. Young buck kept injecting himself into interactions with RH's wife ... who was clueless about his intentions and thought he 'he was just being friendly'.

And herein lies RH's concern regarding pickup ... See? It's all connected.

I for one am not going to throw my hat into the ring on the subject of either gender going out with a group of their friends.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Wow.... not that I'm surprised to hear such sentiment, but...wow... But, I'm used to hearing such ridiculous, blanket statements. I'm sure the ladies in CWI whose husbands were/are cheating will be happy to know that their husbands weren't/aren't cheating... they were just "hanging out with the guys"... Yea, right.


I thought he was being sarcastic, I hope I'm not wrong


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I thought he was being sarcastic, I hope I'm not wrong


Even if HE is being sarcastic... SOMEONE actually believes that tripe. So, him posting it only reinforces the opinions of THOSE people.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Maricha...when I read the account, in my mind I just saw a group of married men and one divorced man going out to dinner and drinks. So to me, it read totally differently than the threads about women going out to dance clubs. But wow, I don't mean to get you all stirred up! If RH's BNO was on the naugthy side, then BAD RH! BAD!

.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

*Re: After a night out with my buddy, I am going to have to say PUA books are overra*



Deejo said:


> Why derail an argument on one hot subject just to argue about another one?.



I wish you would be so concerned with derailment when it comes the reverse, because frankly the amount of sexism and thinly veiled misogyny on the board has just about chased me away from here.

peace brother, I will leave the thread and I apologize if I have hijacked the thread.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Even if HE is being sarcastic... SOMEONE actually believes that tripe. So, him posting it only reinforces the opinions of THOSE people.


Wow, I'm like a real troll now...look at me getting fed.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Maricha...when I read the account, in my mind I just saw a group of married men and one divorced man going out to dinner and drinks. So to me, it read totally differently than the threads about women going out to dance clubs. But wow, I don't mean to get you all stirred up! If RH's BNO was on the naugthy side, then BAD RH! BAD!
> 
> .


I'm sure you're being sincere in this but perhaps you're not realizing it comes across as rather patronizing.

I'm finding it unlikely that the newly divorced guy was going out with his married friends to employ his new PUA tactics at Applebee's. It was a GNO - whether that's a good thing or bad thing is left to the reader's perception.

In my very humble opinion, I do find it to be treading in dangerous waters to go out with your buddy who's trolling for chicks if you're married - whether your a man or woman.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Was just trying to lighten up the mood and be silly with the BAD RH part.

I am being sincere in how I read the first post.

But apologies all around, people! I wasn't even trying to stir crap this time but poop, did it again.

(the apologies are sincere, too)

.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

You guys do bring up some valid points. It does appear to be a double standard. I also did have a major problem with my wife going on a GNO with one particular person because I knew she had zero respect for me, my marriage, or anyone else's marriage for that matter. But in general I have never told her she can't go out for dinner and drinks with friends who respect our relationship. She does so about once a month or so.

Based on my checkered past you are right that I am the last person that should be out at bars. I think my wife didn't care because she knows that my friend could use the company and encouragement right now. Also, FWIW she did make me promise not to drink. 

With the other married guys there I would think it was safe. Who would hit on women with your married buddies watching you do it? That certainly wasn't my MO back when I was no good.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> You guys do bring up some valid points. It does appear to be a double standard. I also did have a major problem with my wife going on a GNO with one particular person because I knew she had zero respect for me, my marriage, or anyone else's marriage for that matter. But in general I have never told her she can't go out for dinner and drinks with friends who respect our relationship. She does so about once a month or so.
> 
> Based on my checkered past you are right that I am the last person that should be out at bars. I think my wife didn't care because she knows that my friend could use the company and encouragement right now. Also, FWIW she did make me promise not to drink.
> 
> With the other married guys there I would think it was safe. *Who would hit on women with your married buddies watching you do it?* That certainly wasn't my MO back when I was no good.


There are plenty of married friends, male and female who would turn a blind eye to that. Then you throw in the friend who tells the guy he's pu$$ywhipped, or the friend who tells the woman that her jerk of a husband is toooo controlling, and things fall apart in a hurry.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Is there a double standard? Gee, I wonder why....


```
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbUy2TE-45A
```


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> There are plenty of married friends, male and female who would turn a blind eye to that. Then you throw in the friend who tells the guy he's pu$$ywhipped, or the friend who tells the woman that her jerk of a husband is toooo controlling, and things fall apart in a hurry.


I agree that most people turn a blind eye to affairs and other inappropriate behavior. But I honestly can't understand why someone would openly hit on people in front of a table of their married friends. To me that would be very stupid.

It was just guys in a bar talking about good times and coaching up a friend who is trying to regain his confidence. Was curiosity also factor? Absolutely. I wanted to see him put his theories into practice.

Regarding the scenarios you gave no disrespect but I think they are far fetched. No one is going to throw away their happy marriage on a dare because a friend says you are whipped, or you are being controlled at home. If thats all it takes you were easy pickings and not devoted in the first place.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I agree that most people turn a blind eye to affairs and other inappropriate behavior. But I honestly can't understand why someone would openly hit on people in front of a table of their married friends. To me that would be very stupid.
> 
> It was just guys in a bar talking about good times and coaching up a friend who is trying to regain his confidence. Was curiosity also factor? Absolutely. I wanted to see him put his theories into practice.
> 
> Regarding the scenarios you gave no disrespect but I think they are far fetched. No one is going to throw away their happy marriage on a dare because a friend says you are whipped, or you are being controlled at home. *If thats all it takes you were easy pickings and not devoted in the first place*.


And those are the people that PUA's go for. 

I don't think it is far fetched at all. Spend some time in the CWI forums. And yes, even among fully grown adults, collective IQ drops in groups, especially when alcohol is involved, and then throw in the fact that at least one of the guys there was there for the explicit purpose of hooking up, and the other guys were there as his wingmen.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

This is not a situation I would put myself into. Too many things could go wrong...and even simple misunderstandings could have long term consequences. I respect my STBW and our relationship too much to risk damaging it for the thrill of watching a friend strike out with the ladies.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

What a bizarre direction this thread has gone. I don't blame folks for pointing out the potential problems that this night out could have caused but for me it was low risk. People on TAM mean well but sometimes I think there is a tendency to make any situation with opposite sex people look like potential full blown orgies. I'm taking my ball and I'm going home


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Wait!!!.......You forgot your bat!

.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

PUA books huh...............well let's take two people me and my buddy in college. 

I was funny, smart, did well, had a nice car, apartment, and got my fair share of the ladies. I dressed nice, current, worked out 6"1 210lbs at the time, a atheletes body.


Now my best friend was unemployed, no college, a beat up old van, but was also by many girls I know "Harry Connick Jr's twin and gorgeous" he could walk in any bar, any reception, any party, and get almost any girl he wanted. Women younger, older, his age it didn't matter. You almost felt like a celebrity he was so good looking the girls would just stare.

All of this PUA, Alpha male, blah blah blah all tools that might give the average man a slight edge over another average man. Compared to guys like my friend YOU WOULD HAVE NO CHANCE 99% of the time. 

In the end it's you can be aveerage or below average at life, but if you are HOT guy or girl you will never have a problem lining up the opposite sex.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Even if you're hot and women stare and flirt and approach you etc etc you can still muck it up like what I used to do when I was younger - I had no game

Girl: "I like your eyes"
Me: "Errrm... *blush* ok"
Girl: "You have a girlfriend?"
Me: "No"
Girl: "I'll go out with you"
Me: "Erm... you're joking"
Girl: *WTF?!*

I used the "you're joking" line more embarrassing times then I can count!
Heh still remember one, she replied as she turned away say: "I was so serious"

:rofl:

The game is real
But PUA go over the top sometimes methinks with their boasts

Women are sentient beings, they each have their types, turnons, turnoffs. You do have to play the numbers game no matter how hot you are, and some may even be put off by a confident man. I'm in my late 20s now too so I also have to try a little harder then back in my earlier years. Like sure, after seperation I had no problems dating, but it's never like you can score any woman you want. Just like even a hot woman can't score any man she wants, some may not even find her attractive or be turned off by her mannerisms etc.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> All of this PUA, Alpha male, blah blah blah all tools that might give the average man a slight edge over another average man. Compared to guys like my friend YOU WOULD HAVE NO CHANCE 99% of the time.


This is very true. Movie star handsome vs. average with alpha tools and pick up strategies will lose every time. 

I was wrong about one thing though. I've actually posted about my friend before. I found this site back when he was having marriage problems and I recommended that he read MMSL. He tried all the stuff in that and he was still pretty much invisible to his wife. So based on this I posted that manning up doesn't work and if you are a doormat or as they say around here a beta that you are what you are and no book can change that. That thread touched off a huge debate.

In retrospect I was wrong. I think MMSL didn't work for him because she had no feelings for him one way or the other by the time he started trying to change. I now think the alpha tools work. Can he have any woman he wants? No. But he certainly does seem to have some confidence now. After knowing him for almost two decades I can say that he was the last guy to approach a woman when we were all single. 

Is their truth in advertising for pick up books, definitely not. Shame on me for believing that. But for my buddy its one heck of a placebo.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Your friend is a C level pua.

I roomed with an A level bad boy pua in college. His pull was STUNNING.

There are at least 3 differing kinds of players/pua. Looks, bad boy, friend.the most dangerous kind to married women is the patient friend player.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Your friend is a C level pua.
> 
> I roomed with an A level bad boy pua in college. His pull was STUNNING.
> 
> There are at least 3 differing kinds of players/pua. Looks, bad boy, friend.the most dangerous kind to married women is the patient friend player.


C Level? He would take that as a compliment.

Regarding your friend PUA. Perhaps I'm naive but why on earth would someone want to befriend a married woman and wait to score? I get that married women hook up with friends but I assumed that its because one or both parties goes too far, or one of them are unhappy in their relationship or something like that.

So you are saying that there are seriously single males out there that think its worth the time and effort to seduce a married woman? Seems like an awful long time to wait to get laid if you ask me. Plenty of other options with much less effort.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> C Level? He would take that as a compliment.
> 
> Regarding your friend PUA. Perhaps I'm naive but why on earth would someone want to befriend a married woman and wait to score? I get that married women hook up with friends but I assumed that its because one or both parties goes too far, or one of them are unhappy in their relationship or something like that.
> 
> So you are saying that there are seriously single males out there that think its worth the time and effort to seduce a married woman? Seems like an awful long time to wait to get laid if you ask me. Plenty of other options with much less effort.


I don't know...most of them have money, they give crazy amounts of a$$, and they aren't looking for commitment. You could rotate several of them at the same time.

Not saying I'd ever do it, but I can see why people would.

In fact, I questioned being a married woman vigilante for a short time. Picking up on married women to get hot steamy sex and then outing them to their husbands, with proof, so they get screwed in divorce court.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> In fact, I questioned being a married woman vigilante for a short time. Picking up on married women to get hot steamy sex and then outing them to their husbands, with proof, so they get screwed in divorce court.


Would be fun, although you run the risk of knowing that you've split up a family for steamy sex. Still, if it's not going to be you - it's going to be someone else anyway right? Heh, that's what I told myself when I was ramming a cheater.

Also no point if you're in a no fault divorce country like me, you'll just get the sex but none of the justice.

Besides, there are also married women who step out and don't proclaim that they are married.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Would be fun, although you run the risk of knowing that you've split up a family for steamy sex. Still, if it's not going to be you - it's going to be someone else anyway right? Heh, that's what I told myself when I was ramming a cheater.
> 
> Also no point if you're in a no fault divorce country like me, you'll just get the sex but none of the justice.
> 
> Besides, there are also married women who step out and don't proclaim that they are married.


I'd only go after the worst of the worst. The ones that spend their husband's money on boyfriends and brag about it.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

The whole PUA framing is stupid. Picking up girls who are specifically out to get picked up, and boozing: how is this notable? Like finding groceries in the store? "Oh, man I knew this guy who could pull from the vegetable department, meats, canned goods and kitchenwares... he was _amazing_. 

If you are successful it doesn't much matter what it is - sports, business, politics, art, music, whatever - people are going to flock to you. If you aren't top gun material, no matter - whatever hobbies, interests, and activities you have will bring you into contact with people who share the same interests and that is an automatic common platform to engage with like-minded people.

It isn't like I don't know the scene. I was lead singer in a rock and roll band, playing in meat markets. You know who pulls hot women? Not the guys I saw in those joints. The doctors, lawyers, businessmen, stud athletes, etc. They're too busy working their rear ends off to spend much time in bars and I didn't have time for it either until I had finished graduate school and had a decent career. 

To me the PUA groupies seem to be operating in some kind of weird fantasy world where the plain reality of successful men being with top flight women is studiously ignored in favor of faking like you are more than you are.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Your friend is a C level pua.
> 
> I roomed with an A level bad boy pua in college. His pull was STUNNING.
> 
> There are at least 3 differing kinds of players/pua. Looks, bad boy, friend.the most dangerous kind to married women is the patient friend player.


Different strokes for different folks.

It all depends on the type of woman.
Some women like the bad boy type.
some women like the " good looks" type.
Some women like the " lots of money " type.

In college I had a PUA friend who had a scar across his face, was MVP on the basketball team for sometime.
Although he wasn't good looking, he never had problems with women, and girls would always approach him.
He used to throw these wild, house parties , but he always invited about three times the amount of females than males.
I still have memories of those parties...
He always made it clear that was interested in sex, girls used to call him a pervert, but somehow they always ended up in his car or his bed.
That guy was a pro.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> C Level? He would take that as a compliment.
> 
> Regarding your friend PUA. Perhaps I'm naive but why on earth would someone want to befriend a married woman and wait to score? I get that married women hook up with friends but I assumed that its because one or both parties goes too far, or one of them are unhappy in their relationship or something like that.
> 
> So you are saying that there are seriously single males out there that think its worth the time and effort to seduce a married woman? Seems like an awful long time to wait to get laid if you ask me. Plenty of other options with much less effort.


Why is in my bottom link of my sig and this posted by another.

>Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex. <

Stringing along a stable of women you are friending and working to adultery is apparently very easy. Never tried it but if you google how to seduce a married woman they follow a very similar path.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

It appeals to men with lost confidence.... Guys I know who get laid the most (and I mean a lot) don't follow such rules, and they get laid by certain types of women. Women are also picker than men and have been for thousands of years its part of our evolution. NOT all women fancy or would bang a certain type of man, but I bet you that MOST men would bang a certain type of woman. Most men just want to get laid and for single guys they want to sleep with a lot of women and preferably easy women, not many horny guys will turn down a hot girl. However, many women (single) will turn down a hot guy for many reasons. I've seen it!

With that said most men who want to be pickup artists dream of emulating James Bond. That first requires understanding women

Good looks go a long way as well


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

COguy said:


> In fact, I questioned being a married woman vigilante for a short time. Picking up on married women to get hot steamy sex and then outing them to their husbands, with proof, so they get screwed in divorce court.


:rofl: You should go through with it ha


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Davelli0331 said:


> But it's based on science!


LMAO! Classic, Davearundo!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> I'd only go after the worst of the worst. The ones that spend their husband's money on boyfriends and brag about it.


Then go for it! Restore some balance in this messed up world

:smthumbup:


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Then go for it! Restore some balance in this messed up world
> 
> :smthumbup:


Meh...I'm not so bitter anymore. Besides, I have a girlfriend now that keeps me pretty occupied.

But if she ever cheated on me.....I'd be the female species' greatest enemy.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

* science *

Lol,
Some guys _really do_ need a book 
[ or even a calculator ] to find the G-spot...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Why is in my bottom link of my sig and this posted by another.
> 
> >Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> ...


I should be scared to death of your post but for some reason I think even with the "friend" PUA technique. You still have to have a willing victim. 

I will agree that compliments are powerful. I have seen how a compliment from a stranger in some ways has more weight than one from a husband. I was walking with my wife after a night out and we couldn't find a cab so we had to walk through a rough neighborhood late at night. A car slowed down and a dude yelled, "Damn your girl is sexy!!!". I was ticked, but my wife was all smiles. She still talks about it. It made her night. I complement her all the time, but affirmation from a strange man, even a cat call was a huge ego boost for her. So.....yeah the compliment thing is definitely true.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> My perspective- as a serial cheat...
> 
> ...snipping long lesson in manipulation...


What was useful about that is how devoid of ethics and empathy for others it was. That read how PUA material does such as in The Game, and how they speak amongst themselves on the websites. Notice not one iota of concern for the people who have been lied to and their marriages disrupted - their children for christ's sake. Innocent children, victims of a predator specifically targeting their mother. Yeah - what a wonderful thing to emulate. 

When defending themselves to others it's "Oh, no, we're all about self improvement - healthier diet, public charity, the environment, and innoculating third world children against disease". In other words, more lying and manipulation.

The core deceit is the lie about "instilling confidence". There is an enormous difference between that of a con-man and that of a decent person who is successful. Toastmasters can give you public speaking ability, or any number of other clubs. 

The brand of "confidence" in PUA is that of confidence game, as in the screed above. The core conceit in PUA is called "duper's delight" in the personality disorder literature: the women are the dupes and the PUA is the puppet-master. Being forthright and truthful, trusting others - those are viewed as weaknesses and stupidity. Lying, deceiving, having no scruples - this is viewed as being smarter. 

Of course, the PUA groupies deny this and pretend they only take the "good" things out of PUA literature - really, they read it for getting tips on fashion and diet. In which case there is no point to reading it in the first place. 

And why did I read so much of it? Because at the end of my music career before retiring I had gotten tired of the band scene and went back to where I started: playing solo in restaurants that closed way earlier than the bars. An old college team-mate had come up to rent from me an he would stop at the end of my shows and I would be his designated driver while he went to practice PUA. I don't drink, and I wasn't out to pick up women. Yet, he would tell me I was "doing it all wrong" by simply answering people's questions honestly. He had this whole pretentious vocabulary that I then learned was from PUA bunk salesmen. 

I couldn't have disagreed more with his approach, and it obviously didn't work. He never once picked up a girl, but offended a lot of them with "neg theory". He handed me the book called The Game and a whole box of internet material on PUA. I read all of it, with morbid fascination for how exactly all the tactics fit the manipulation I had studied in the personality disorder literature.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> But if she ever cheated on me.....I'd be the female species' greatest enemy.


Or a DISLOYAL woman's greatest enemy, wrath is best delivered without collateral


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Or a DISLOYAL woman's greatest enemy, wrath is best delivered without collateral


Truth! I am dealing with collateral damage as a result of multiple affairs my STBW's ex husband had on her. She went the revenge route, and it's not pretty or pleasant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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