# Wife had lesbian affair. What do I do now?



## FamilyMan15

The first 15 years of my marriage were awesome. My wife and I met in college and were very much in love. Lots of love throughout our marriage and great physical and emotional intimacy. We have two elementary-age children. 

But the last 4 years have been a struggle. New jobs and relationship led to lots of conflicts over careers and priorities etc.. that slowly deteriorated our relationship until my wife had an affair with a woman starting in 4 months ago. I just discovered it. She had been going through an identity crisis for the last year due to the loss of a career and was at a low point in our marriage. She has recently broken the relationship off to attempt reconciliation, but is questioning her sexuality and if reconciliation is even possible. 

She is currently living at home and is willing to seek counseling (we are going next week), but ultimately she is torn between a potential new life with her girlfriend and her loyalty to her family and husband. She is concerned that if the sexuality issues are unaddressed, once the children leave, we will split up and it will be too late to start a new life. It wasn't a fling - they had long-term plans to raise children etc...

I realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship. Ultimately, I love her more than anything and want to save out marriage. My current plan is to make extraordinary effort to show her that I can be the person that she used to love and see a counselor for advice along the way. She has agreed... at least for now. I hope that with time with the new me and counseling to help resolve our issues, her love can be rekindled and we can save our marriage and family. Faced with losing my wife, all the old issues that seemed so big at the time are suddenly insignificant. But if she truly is a lesbian (vs. it being a situational thing), there is not much I can do.

Fundamental problem #1: Wife says she is deeply questioning her sexuality (and has been for the past year) and thinks she might be a lesbian but doesn't want to risk the family breakup unless she is sure as that has devastating consequences. I think that she is/was trying to escape a deteriorating relationship and an identity crisis and was able to find a loving, supportive partner who filled all the emotional voids left by my emotional distance and my continued driving her away over many years. I believe our relationship is fixable, but am afraid it might be too late.

Fundamental problem #2: Wife is still is unsure of which relationship she wants. Without both fully committed to rebuilding the relationship, chance for reconciliation seems small. If my wife is here merely out of obligation to the marriage and family, can a reconciliation happen? 

Where do we go from here? How do we rebuild our relationship? How do we recover from the affair?


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## Dogbert

Maybe she's not a true lesbian but she may be bisexual.


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## Q tip

If she truly is deciding what to do, she does not need counseling - she's buying time. Show her the door. Then she will chose. Let her back, she may cheat yet again. Close the door. Divorce. 

Feel free to date her, but then why...

To rebuild, she needs to do the heavy lifting, not you. True remorse? I think not. Read up on MMSLP for info about this.


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## MattMatt

FamilyMan15 said:


> The first 15 years of my marriage were awesome. My wife and I met in college and were very much in love. Lots of love throughout our marriage and great physical and emotional intimacy. We have two elementary-age children.
> 
> But the last 4 years have been a struggle. New jobs and relationship led to lots of conflicts over careers and priorities etc.. that slowly deteriorated our relationship until my wife had an affair with a woman starting in 4 months ago. I just discovered it. She had been going through an identity crisis for the last year due to the loss of a career and was at a low point in our marriage. She has recently broken the relationship off to attempt reconciliation, but is questioning her sexuality and if reconciliation is even possible.
> 
> She is currently living at home and is willing to seek counseling (we are going next week), but ultimately she is torn between a potential new life with her girlfriend and her loyalty to her family and husband. She is concerned that if the sexuality issues are unaddressed, once the children leave, we will split up and it will be too late to start a new life. It wasn't a fling - they had long-term plans to raise children etc...
> 
> I realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship. Ultimately, I love her more than anything and want to save out marriage. My current plan is to make extraordinary effort to show her that I can be the person that she used to love and see a counselor for advice along the way. She has agreed... at least for now. I hope that with time with the new me and counseling to help resolve our issues, her love can be rekindled and we can save our marriage and family. Faced with losing my wife, all the old issues that seemed so big at the time are suddenly insignificant. But if she truly is a lesbian (vs. it being a situational thing), there is not much I can do.
> 
> Fundamental problem #1: Wife says she is deeply questioning her sexuality (and has been for the past year) and thinks she might be a lesbian but doesn't want to risk the family breakup unless she is sure as that has devastating consequences. I think that she is/was trying to escape a deteriorating relationship and an identity crisis and was able to find a loving, supportive partner who filled all the emotional voids left by my emotional distance and my continued driving her away over many years. I believe our relationship is fixable, but am afraid it might be too late.
> 
> Fundamental problem #2: Wife is still is unsure of which relationship she wants. Without both fully committed to rebuilding the relationship, chance for reconciliation seems small. If my wife is here merely out of obligation to the marriage and family, can a reconciliation happen?
> 
> Where do we go from here? How do we rebuild our relationship? How do we recover from the affair?


Oh, this triggered me.

Mu first LTR girl friend left me for another woman, so I feel some of your pain.

Oh, boy.

She needs specialist counselling by a psychologist who specialises in this kind of thing.

so, so sorry you are going through this.

What does your wife want for you and your children amidst all this drama?:scratchhead:


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## Chaparral

What do you mean she lost her career? Did you mean job? Why?


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## Chaparral

From the looks of it so far it looks like youre going in the wrong direction.

Has she gone no contact with the Other woman?

Go to amazon and download the two books linked to below in my signature. You need these a long, long time ago.


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## EleGirl

Your wife had no issue with being sexual with you for years right? Then she's not a lesbian. She might be bi-sexual. 

How aggressive was the other woman in pursuing your wife?


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## happyman64

FamiilyMan

Read closely and think about what everyone is saying to you.

especially Elegirl and Chap.

Your wife's sexual orientation is selfishness. not gay, les or bi.

But selfish.

All the driving away a man can do to his wife never makes a woman willingly leave her children.

but your wife was/is ready to walk away from you, her children, her family and her marriage. Heck, her whole lifestyle.

Your wife has bigger issues my man than you. that is for sure.

And IMO you are going in the wrong direction. So you were a lousy husband.

join the club.

Your wife could have chosen to divorce you. She could have warned you that she was thinking of leaving.

But not your wife. She has you convinced that you are all to blame. Or maybe you convinced yourself?



> I realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship. Ultimately, I love her more than anything and want to save out marriage. My current plan is to make extraordinary effort to show her that I can be the person that she used to love and see a counselor for advice along the way.


What I posted above is a recipe for disaster. What consequences have you shown your wife for lieing? For cheating? For wanting to leave you and the kids?

Counseling is a must for her first. Because she needs to sort her issues before you two can ever focus on the marriage.

Your wife is a WAW my man. A Walk Away Wife. Those are the toughest to deal with. To work with. To reason with.

And they usually need to be let go to live their life. Lose their entire families and hit rock bottom before they ever realize just what they lost.

Keep posting. Especially what you feel you did to contribute to the downfall of your marriage.

HM


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## Chaparral

Downloaded the books yet?

Can you describe the lesbian? Which of them is the short haired one?


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## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> Fundamental problem #2: Wife is still is unsure of which relationship she wants.


 Your wife is a bi-sexual cheater, that has used the sexuality issue to confuse you about her cheating, and to help her rationalizing her betrayal of you and her marriage vows. Having an affair no matter the sex of the affair partner is cheating. Bisexuals and lesbians to not get a pass to cheat, that allows them to explore other partners as their spouse keeps true to their vows of not letting anyone come between them and their spouse (Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate). If she wanted out to explore other relationships (male or female), she should have ended the marriage and done so. As a cheater she did not want either you or her affair partner. As a cheater she used deception to try to have both. It is a matter of mathematical logic; no matter how good a spouse that you are, you alone can never be greater than you + the affair partner. She is an un-remorseful cheater, and you need to start treating her like one.


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## warlock07

Your wife being a remorseless cheater is the major issue. Her being a lesbian or not is secondary. 

You are plan B. You understand that, right ? if her lesbian relationship fails, she ill jump right back to you until she finds another woman/man.

If lesbian affairs are supposed to be ok, identify yourself as a woman and have an affair with another woman and let us see how open she is to it.


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## 6301

First of all, if she's there for just convenience then she may as well not be there at all. If she's not sure who she wants to be with, then she shouldn't be there.

If she and her lover had plans to raise children, then I would tell tell her good luck getting knocked up but the kids we have stay with you.

Look friend. if this woman has any idea that you willing to go to the ends of the earth to save your marriage, then that's just what your going to be doing while she sits on the side lines watching you do all the heavy lifting. She's already given you the heads up when she said she can't make up her mind in so many words and is waiting for you to do everything and she does nothing.

If it was me, I tell her to to go and if she wants any chance to be included in the family, then she better be ready to do the work to earn her way back in or else your in for the ride of your life.

If you don't bring the hammer down hard and now, I promise you that she's going to have you so bamboozled that she's going to wind up having her cake and eating it too.


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## FamilyMan15

MattMatt said:


> Oh, this triggered me.
> 
> Mu first LTR girl friend left me for another woman, so I feel some of your pain.
> 
> Oh, boy.
> 
> She needs specialist counselling by a psychologist who specialises in this kind of thing.
> 
> so, so sorry you are going through this.
> 
> What does your wife want for you and your children amidst all this drama?:scratchhead:


Well, she is here with us now, broke it off with the OW, and agreed to see the counselor primarily because of concern for the kids and our history. So, they are a key part of the issue. I think she honesty is torn between two people she loves. and yes, I don't like that at all, but I'm not willing to give up yet. I had a large part in driving her away and I still love her and want to at least see if our marriage can recover.


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## warlock07

How generous of her.


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## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> What do you mean she lost her career? Did you mean job? Why?


She was laid off from a job she loved and, for various reasons, even though she loved the job, chose to not to return to that same field. So she took a field in a different field that she doesn't enjoy nearly as much. It's a job, but not a passion.

Basically, the job she loved consumed her time and passion to a point that she had no time for anything else in her life (marriage, kids, etc). It was a major source of conflict for us and guilt on her side for not being available to her family. So she chose not to return to a job that she really felt was her "calling." She took the layoff as a chance to start over, but the restart hasn't gone too well.

Therefore, for the last couple years, she's struggled with the fact that the job she loves doesn't fit in her life as it is now. So if she isn't that profession, who is she?

Make sense?


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## MattMatt

She is in need of counselling. To some people the loss of a job which is an all consuming passion as with your wife, can bring about emotions akin to grief.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FamilyMan15

EleGirl said:


> Your wife had no issue with being sexual with you for years right? Then she's not a lesbian. She might be bi-sexual.
> 
> How aggressive was the other woman in pursuing your wife?


Right - we had a great sex life in the past, but honestly over the last 1.5 years or so, as our relationship deteriorated, so did our sex life.

Frankly, if it's a choice of bisexuality or lesbianism, at least bi gives us a chance of reconciling.

I know I sound desperate, but I really believe that this was a circumstantial choice. She was just in a really bad place and this friend was able to help. Not defending her at all, what she did was wrong. Period. But I was an ass for a long time, and I'd like the chance to fix things.

I think the OW pursued her pretty heavily. It started as a friendship and she was a listening ear - everything that I wasn't. and the OW took advantage of my wifes vunerability at the time. But then, my wife didn't say no and definitely was a willing party. This wasn't a one time thing. It was on ongoing thing that was/is very serious emotionally. But I don't think my wife sought it out if that's what you are asking.


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## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> From the looks of it so far it looks like youre going in the wrong direction.
> 
> Has she gone no contact with the Other woman?
> 
> Go to amazon and download the two books linked to below in my signature. You need these a long, long time ago.


Yes - no more contact. I believe she genuinely wants give us a chance, but is wrestling with her feelings for the OW. Therefore the counseling. But, boy - I feel like I'm banking too much on the counseling to work.


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## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> Yes - no more contact. I believe she genuinely wants give us a chance, but is wrestling with her feelings for the OW. Therefore the counseling. But, boy - I feel like I'm banking too much on the counseling to work.


Counseling only works if the person really wants it to. Do you believe your wife is "all in" enough for counseling to make a difference?


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## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> FamiilyMan
> 
> but your wife was/is ready to walk away from you, her children, her family and her marriage. Heck, her whole lifestyle.
> 
> ...
> 
> Keep posting. Especially what you feel you did to contribute to the downfall of your marriage.
> 
> HM


So, her and the OW had plans to raise the kids as their own (split custody), so it was just me she was considering leaving.

As to the stuff I did - Basically she was in a career she loved but that kept her away from the family much of the time. I fought it constantly and was a real ass it on an ongoing basis about it rather that going to a professional to help mediate a compromise. Resentment built and little things she did drove me crazy. She admits she was half to blame, but I was someone that no one would want to live with. We have seen a counselor in the beginning to get past the issue, but it snowballed.

But the shock of this whole situation put a lot in perspective. So much of the things that seemed important at the time, really didn't matter. I was just trying to take control of a situation in which I felt powerless.

I recognize that we both share responsibility, but I did a lot to contribute to the marriage low that made her open to stepping out. BUT SHE STILL SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT.

Still bottom line, I want to save my family and would do anything for another chance to do it all right. We were so happy the majority of our marriage. I believe we can be that way again.


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## seeking sanity

Counselling is overrated. She needs to fear losing you, or you'll continue to be the loser in this situation. That comes from you not being a guaranteed option to her, which could be a simple as you saying: Hey, lesbian or not, you stepped out on me and I'm not sure I can take you back.

ALSO: I'd get legal things in place NOW, say a custody schedule, just in case, because man against lesbian couple is a f*cking nightmare for you.


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## FamilyMan15

warlock07 said:


> Your wife being a remorseless cheater is the major issue. Her being a lesbian or not is secondary.
> 
> You are plan B. You understand that, right ? if her lesbian relationship fails, she ill jump right back to you until she finds another woman/man.
> 
> If lesbian affairs are supposed to be ok, identify yourself as a woman and have an affair with another woman and let us see how open she is to it.


I actually agree with this mostly. The lesbian thing is secondary (it just happens to be a core issue that I can't overcome as a male).

Bottom line is that she considers herself in love with two people. At this point, the OW is the "romantic" love and our love is the love built over almost 20 years plus the children we have. The fact that the other woman is definitely secondary. But she doesn't want to throw our marriage away and cut ties and is seeking help in working out these issues. 

It's a horrible situation.


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## FamilyMan15

6301 said:


> First of all, if she's there for just convenience then she may as well not be there at all. If she's not sure who she wants to be with, then she shouldn't be there.
> 
> If she and her lover had plans to raise children, then I would tell tell her good luck getting knocked up but the kids we have stay with you.
> 
> Look friend. if this woman has any idea that you willing to go to the ends of the earth to save your marriage, then that's just what your going to be doing while she sits on the side lines watching you do all the heavy lifting. She's already given you the heads up when she said she can't make up her mind in so many words and is waiting for you to do everything and she does nothing.
> 
> If it was me, I tell her to to go and if she wants any chance to be included in the family, then she better be ready to do the work to earn her way back in or else your in for the ride of your life.
> 
> If you don't bring the hammer down hard and now, I promise you that she's going to have you so bamboozled that she's going to wind up having her cake and eating it too.


This was my original reaction and plan, but to be honest, that would be the easier choice for her. I'm just not willing to give up yet. But I fear that you may be right. But isn't it worth at least exploring. We have 2 kids that this will devastate. I think if it was just me, I would react differently and let her figure it out on her own. I just don't want to drag the kids through that if at all possible.


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## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> Counseling only works if the person really wants it to. Do you believe your wife is "all in" enough for counseling to make a difference?


Well, her primary goal is for someone to help her figure out what she wants... Basically is she a lesbian I think. I think she understands at some level that the relationship was an situational escape. 

That's a problem for me. For the counseling to work, we need to be going for the same reason.


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## FamilyMan15

So bottom line, I have two choices:

1. Ask her to leave and figure it out on her own with the OW. She may or may not come back. Either way the kids are dragged through hell and chances are good that this doesn't end in the ideal situation (with us together as a family). Best case would most likely be a amicable divorce with split custody. There's always the chance that she would discover this was a huge mistake on her own, but then by then the damage is done to the kids and I'm not sure if there would be any chance of us reconciling. Plus why would she come back? She's got the worst version of me as her final memory. This option only seems to end unhappily (at least in the short term).

2. Give reconciliation a chance (with professional help) and give her the chance to work through her emotions while the family is still whole and together. It gives me a chance to show her the best version of me and protects the kids along the way. This seems to at least a decent chance of ending in the ideal situation (with us together as a family) and at least I know I'm tried everything I can. Especially if this was a situational thing (and the situation can change), why not give her a chance to discover that while hanging out with me?

Ultimately, #2 seems the best option if I want to have any chance of being with her and keeping our family together (which I really do). I've read that lots on marriages can recover from an affair. I'd like to have the chance to do it. What am I missing?


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## FamilyMan15

I do want to ask a couple question regarding recovering from an affair when the cheater stays and they try and fix things (regardless of my specific situation):

1. I can't sleep. I constantly have pictures and scenes running through my head. What do I do?

2. Paranoia. Every time I hear her phone bing, I think it's the OW. Everytime she goes out, I wonder where she is. I constantly want to check her phone, but that's not healthy - it's just making me crazy. How do I handle this? How can we rebuild the trust?

3. This is all I think about and it's driving me crazy. I want to talk about it all the time and that's counterproductive to having a place the is healthy for both of us.

4. Depression. Not only did she leave me, but for another woman no less. I need to be the one she wants to be with and no one wants to be with someone constantly down. How do I heal myself emotionally? 

5. Do I need to see a counselor individually to get over some of this? 

6. Physical intimacy like cuddling, kissing, and holding hands. I feel like I am forcing it - it feels somewhat awkward, but how is she supposed to fall in love with me again without it?

7. What can we do to make the counseling productive? Anything I need to ask to see if the counselor is the right one? We are currently scheduled to go in 4 days.

I guess I am looking for general advice for emotionally surviving this situation.


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## FamilyMan15

Thanks for all the good feedback. You have definitely given me some things to think about.

Keeping the family whole is the goal. We've had so many happy years together. It's just the last several years that we spiralled down. What's the best path to achieving that (keeping the family whole)? I'm not ready to kick her to the curb. I love her more than anything.


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## jld

For getting her to fall in love with you again, just remember that most women have to have great trust in a man to seek emotional intimacy with him. The greater her trust, the deeper the emotional intimacy, the stronger the bond.


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## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> For getting her to fall in love with you again, just remember that most women have to have great trust in a man to seek emotional intimacy with him. The greater her trust, the deeper the emotional intimacy, the stronger the bond.


Ok so how do I do this (increase trust)?


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## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> Ok so how do I do this (increase trust)?


Well, I think you're doing a good job. It doesn't sound like you've hit her, or shouted at her, or in any way been aggressive with her since finding out. If anything, you seem to be trying to be understanding and as honest and open as possible. 

How about saying something like this, "Honey, I love you and the kids very much. I really want what is best for all of us."

"I understand you must be very confused right now. Honestly, I feel confused too. I don't want you to try to be something you are not. I can only imagine how conflicted I would feel if I were in your shoes."

"I think we need to be as open and honest with each other as possible. I don't really think deep in our hearts either of us has ever wanted to hurt the other."

"If you need to go and be with her, then I will certainly accept that decision. We can work out as amicable a divorce and coparenting plan as possible. I am committed to a respectful relationship with you, regardless of how this turns out."

"But I do need a decision from you at some point. For us to truly reconcile I need you to be all in with me. If you continue to be confused, I would say that's a sign that it is probably not going to work with us."

"Please be as honest with yourself and with me as possible. I am not interested in punishing you or treating you severely. I truly do want the best for you. Being as honest with yourself as possible at what is going to bring you peace is likely to be what will bring me peace, too. I could not be happy if I felt you were trying to force yourself to love me and be with me."

I think anything you can do to lower her fear and be as authentic as possible is going to be helpful to both of you. After all, you want her decision to truly be born of free will, not any kind of fear.


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## happyman64

I think you are doing a great job as well.

She is not trading you for a woman.

She is being selfish. period. Man, woman or a dog does not matter.

The OW is using her and taking advantage of her while she is f'd up emotionally.

If your wife comes to her senses she is going to realize that 15 years does not equal 6 months.

She is in LaLa land. She thinks she is in love.

Because her affair does not deal with reality. it does not have to take into consideration the kids, the bills or a future at this time.

It is just an escape.

I do not think throwing her out and hitting her with D papers will make matters any better.

You cannot control her. You cannot force her to move in a certain direction.

but what you can do is focus on yourself. Be calm. Be cool Be collected.

And get her to realize that no matter what direction she moves in you will be just fine eventually with her or without her.

So be the man. Do not beg her or plead with her. Make her realize that her decisions have consequences.

Does her family know she is cheating on you and has an open relationship with a woman for a few months???

HM


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## ThePheonix

FamilyMan15 said:


> So bottom line, I have two choices


Actually you have three:

Put up with it and hope it straightens itself out.

Get away from it.

See if you can bring the other girl into the fold. Hey, I'm just sayin. Its a choice some guys would go for. . It worked for one guy I know for more than ten years.


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## Hicks

Your wife had a job that she put before her family and her marriage. Being your wife and mother to her children should have been her passion. You reacted as you should have by attempting to hold her accountable. You now question what you did becuase she had a lesbian affair. You are blaming yourself.

Your wife has demonstrated a track record of being a terrible wife and mother. 

What you have to think about is do you want a real marriage to a good wife and good mother, or are you attempting a desperation move? The fact that you are blaming yourself to such a large degree makes me think you will not be holding her accountable.


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## Chaparral

You need the two books below asap.


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## Chaparral

Also google "No more mr nice guy". Free version


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## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> I think you are doing a great job as well.
> 
> She is not trading you for a woman.
> 
> She is being selfish. period. Man, woman or a dog does not matter.
> 
> The OW is using her and taking advantage of her while she is f'd up emotionally.
> 
> If your wife comes to her senses she is going to realize that 15 years does not equal 6 months.
> 
> She is in LaLa land. She thinks she is in love.
> 
> Because her affair does not deal with reality. it does not have to take into consideration the kids, the bills or a future at this time.
> 
> It is just an escape.
> 
> I do not think throwing her out and hitting her with D papers will make matters any better.
> 
> You cannot control her. You cannot force her to move in a certain direction.
> 
> but what you can do is focus on yourself. Be calm. Be cool Be collected.
> 
> And get her to realize that no matter what direction she moves in you will be just fine eventually with her or without her.
> 
> So be the man. Do not beg her or plead with her. Make her realize that her decisions have consequences.
> 
> Does her family know she is cheating on you and has an open relationship with a woman for a few months???
> 
> HM


I agree strongly with all this. I do believe she is in LaLa land and this has been an escape from reality (kids, bills, bad situation, damaged marriage, etc). If her affair became real life, all that comes back into the picture and I think it feels much different. While I do believe she would figure it out at some point, by that point a lot of damage would have been done (both to the kids and to me). Hopefully a professional can help her understand that without having to experience it first hand. But I really feel like I am relying a lot on this magic third party.

Can counseling be effective at helping a cheating spouse decide what/who they want in life?

Her family does not know. Only a close mutual friend, a couple guy friends of mine, and the parties involved. Kids do not know either. The fallout/consequences if she does end up leaving the family is one of the things near to her heart (family knowing, kids, friends etc...) and I think is one of the major reasons she is at least giving us a chance. It not that she is necessarily afraid of it, she just doesn't want to go through it unnecessarily if this is just a situational type thing. I guess she wants to figure out what she wants first for sure before putting everyone else through it. She understands the consequences.

I do think she is sincerely making an effort and doing the best she can right now (vs. stringing me along or stalling or playing mind games or whatever). Her main initial struggle is "who am I sexually" and what future does she want for herself. At least she is here. She could be with the OW during this process and that would greatly reduce the chances of working things out. Everything is rosy there.

I gotta think that if I was gay, those feelings of arousal for the same sex would be pretty plain. Like when I see a naked woman and a naked man, it's very clear my preference. But I suppose I could wonder if I was in denial if I didn't feel them and felt some emotional attachment to a same sex person. Emotional and physical intimacy can be very intertwined. I really believe in this case that the relationship started as emotionally intimate (best friend style) and then the OW initiated the physical part and it all got mixed together and was ok because of all the affection and attention my wife was receiving. I imagine my wife's reaction was, "this is nice to have someone love me physically like this. it feels different, but not bad. I'm just so desperate for these feelings of love and acceptance, I'm ok with it." She had a pretty rough childhood and has a higher than normal need to be accepted and loved and needed and loved. And then she wonders if feeling ok with this new intimacy makes her a lesbian. That would be very confusing. I do believe sexuality can be a spectrum particularly when emotion gets involved.

What she may need to realize is that there is a difference between being ok with same-sex intimacy when it's part of a larger intimacy and wanting/desiring it. Maybe that's what she is struggling with. Which is it for her?

I do like the advice about focusing on me. I can't control her - you are exactly right. I just need to focus on me and the fact that everything will be ok either way. Talking this through does help.


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## ButtPunch

happyman64 said:


> I think you are doing a great job as well.
> 
> She is not trading you for a woman.
> 
> She is being selfish. period. Man, woman or a dog does not matter.
> 
> The OW is using her and taking advantage of her while she is f'd up emotionally.
> 
> If your wife comes to her senses she is going to realize that 15 years does not equal 6 months.
> 
> She is in LaLa land. She thinks she is in love.
> 
> Because her affair does not deal with reality. it does not have to take into consideration the kids, the bills or a future at this time.
> 
> It is just an escape.
> 
> I do not think throwing her out and hitting her with D papers will make matters any better.
> 
> You cannot control her. You cannot force her to move in a certain direction.
> 
> but what you can do is focus on yourself. Be calm. Be cool Be collected.
> 
> And get her to realize that no matter what direction she moves in you will be just fine eventually with her or without her.
> 
> So be the man. Do not beg her or plead with her. Make her realize that her decisions have consequences.
> 
> Does her family know she is cheating on you and has an open relationship with a woman for a few months???
> 
> HM


This was expert advice and I totally agree with it. I feel that you have your wife on a pedestal. She needs to come off of it for this to work. You cannot nice her back. Your best chance is to focus on yourself and make her realize you will be ok with or without her.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ThePheonix said:


> Actually you have three:
> 
> Put up with it and hope it straightens itself out.
> 
> Get away from it.
> 
> See if you can bring the other girl into the fold. Hey, I'm just sayin. Its a choice some guys would go for. . It worked for one guy I know for more than ten years.


Bringing the other girl in really isn't an option. That would be too painful for me.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Hicks said:


> Your wife had a job that she put before her family and her marriage. Being your wife and mother to her children should have been her passion. You reacted as you should have by attempting to hold her accountable. You now question what you did becuase she had a lesbian affair. You are blaming yourself.
> 
> Your wife has demonstrated a track record of being a terrible wife and mother.
> 
> What you have to think about is do you want a real marriage to a good wife and good mother, or are you attempting a desperation move? The fact that you are blaming yourself to such a large degree makes me think you will not be holding her accountable.


I think we both realize what we did wrong to get us to this point and are willing to take our part of the blame for it. We have discussed this at length. Up until just recently, she was a great wife and mother. That's the primary reason I'm still fighting for her. I know what we could be and were. I think we lost our way and she let herself be swayed by someone who would give her what she was missing. 

I do think she should be held accountable, but how do I do that without driving her away and doing a lot of damage in the meantime? Ultimately, there is little to be gained by punishing her. Once she chooses us wholeheartedly, then she needs to do some heavily lifting to get us back to whole again. But prior to that, the situation is delicate.


----------



## tom67

FamilyMan15 said:


> I think we both realize what we did wrong to get us to this point and are willing to take our part of the blame for it. We have discussed this at length. Up until just recently, she was a great wife and mother. That's the primary reason I'm still fighting for her. I know what we could be and were. I think we lost our way and she let herself be swayed by someone who would give her what she was missing.
> 
> I do think she should be held accountable, but how do I do that without driving her away and doing a lot of damage in the meantime? Ultimately, there is little to be gained by punishing her. Once she chooses us wholeheartedly, then she needs to do some heavily lifting to get us back to whole again. But prior to that, the situation is delicate.


Family she has to realize that she may lose you.
Do not walk on egg shells she has to do the heavy lifting.
Two books at about $11 each.
"No More Mr Nice Guy"

"Married Mans Sex Life Primer"


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> I do think she should be held accountable, but how do I do that without driving her away and doing a lot of damage in the meantime? Ultimately, there is little to be gained by punishing her. Once she chooses us wholeheartedly, then she needs to do some heavily lifting to get us back to whole again. But prior to that, the situation is delicate.


The above is what my post last night tried to address.

One of my sisters is a lesbian. She had a steady boyfriend through high school, including physical intimacy. Then she went to college and realized she was gay. 

She's had a couple different partners in her life, one of whom left her and got married, under pressure from her mother. I think the mother couldn't accept the idea that her daughter was gay, and the daughter did not have a strong enough personality to stand on her own. 

I'm not sure if you've said it or not, but is your wife in individual counseling? I would think that would be essential for her to figure out her sexuality and what she needs to do moving forward. I just don't think you are going to be at peace if she is not.


----------



## ConanHub

Q tip said:


> If she truly is deciding what to do, she does not need counseling - she's buying time. Show her the door. Then she will chose. Let her back, she may cheat yet again. Close the door. Divorce.
> 
> Feel free to date her, but then why...
> 
> To rebuild, she needs to do the heavy lifting, not you. True remorse? I think not. Read up on MMSLP for info about this.


Late to the post but this!!!:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Being attracted to the opposite sex in varying degrees is not uncommon. It is also absolutely no excuse to cheat!!

There is a very steady poster on this forum called Faithful Wife.

She is bi-sexual, married to a man she adores and 100% loyal.

Bottom line. Everyone has urges that need to be controlled. Saying you have them is not an excuse to give into them. Your wife committed to you and her children. If your marriage is failing then she could file for divorce. Her sexuality is just another "fog" excuse or justification at this point!


----------



## FamilyMan15

Thanks again for all the responses. Talking it through and hearing other view points has been helpful.

My particular situation aside, in the case of a cheating spouse who comes back, what can the cheatee do to help make the cheater fall back in romantic love with them? Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place. If the cheater comes back obviously they should be doing the heavy lifting to repair the relationship damage they caused, but how can the cheatee help on their side motivate the cheater to look at them instead of their ex for love and affection.

I know you guys are going to say this isn't my job - it's hers, but that aside, what can I do to help transition her away from the OW emotionally and back to me? Obviously I need to get her to choose me 100%, but what if shes not there yet and booting her out to figure it out isn't an option?

I gotta think for the cheater, the emotions aren't always as clear cut as "I made a huge mistake, let me win you back." I gotta think that in many cases, they still feel the pain of the breakup and still feel romantic feelings to the OW as well as the spouse - particularly in the case of being caught in the affair and breaking it off then vs. choosing to end it on their own and the coming clean. I imagine in the case of being caught, the emotions they feel can be very conflicting as they haven't had the change to transition out of the cheating relationship.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> The above is what my post last night tried to address.
> 
> I'm not sure if you've said it or not, but is your wife in individual counseling? I would think that would be essential for her to figure out her sexuality and what she needs to do moving forward. I just don't think you are going to be at peace if she is not.


She is starting it this week in addition to our couples counseling (this all went down mid last week). We both feel that is super important in this process.

Just yes, I agree 100%. The sexuality issue is core. I just get nervous in putting so much reliance in the opinions of this single counselor. The view of the third party could make all the difference in swaying my wife one way or the other.


----------



## ConanHub

BTW OP. You would not be punishing her to detach from her and start divorce proceedings. She earned the loss of her family by cheating. It is a very natural consequence to lose who you betrayed. Her sexuality is an invalid point of information. Again, if she was unhappy with her marriage, she could have filed instead of cheating.

She is still in the "fog". Look it up. She needs some repercussions for her behavior to snap her out of it.

You can help her but not until she is at least remorseful for the affair and admitting her fault and how wrong her actions were.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ConanHub said:


> Late to the post but this!!!:iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Being attracted to the opposite sex in varying degrees is not uncommon. It is also absolutely no excuse to cheat!!
> 
> There is a very steady poster on this forum called Faithful Wife.
> 
> She is bi-sexual, married to a man she adores and 100% loyal.
> 
> Bottom line. Everyone has urges that need to be controlled. Saying you have them is not an excuse to give into them. Your wife committed to you and her children. If your marriage is failing then she could file for divorce. Her sexuality is just another "fog" excuse or justification at this point!


Of course. Cheating is never ok and my wife feels a tremendous amount of guilt over it (at least that's what she communicates). I think she is unsure if she can even forgive herself over it. But I think that is a point of principal vs. helping towards a solution. Punitive options would be harmful to the end goal of reconciliation - and that is what I want (but maybe many of you are arguing that is the mistake).

Still, bottom line is that she is honestly struggling with what she wants her future to look like relationship-wise and separating during that process would be devastating to all (particularly our young kids). At least she is here and sees what she would be missing vs. living in an illusionary la la land with no responsibilities. Again the kids make a big difference in deciding various options.


----------



## betrayed16

What are you doing to ensure that she is not in contact with OW? You're not just taking her word for it, are you? If she's telling you she's confused, I think there's a high likelihood that she's still communicating with OW. You need to make sure she's truly not contacting her. If she is, you'll never recover your marriage, and all the MC in the wirks won't help you.


----------



## betrayed16

*world


----------



## jld

I'm pretty sure the counselor is going to be encouraging her to be as honest as possible with herself. That may mean she needs to leave you and seek a life with another female. It does not mean that she does not love you in a way and it certainly does not mean she doesn't love her children. 

She probably just did not realize this about her sexuality until she got to this point in her life. I bet my sister has known lesbians like that, who did not realize they were gay until after they were married.

At any rate, please do not take her sexuality personally. I bet if she felt she could change things, she would. I'm sure she doesn't want to break up the family, either. 

FM, did you ever date anyone that you thought might have been the right one for you, only to find out at some critical moment that no, it was not going to work? And you had to break up with that person, and you really did not want them to be hurt? But you knew you had to be true to yourself, and that by being true to yourself, in the long run it would be the best thing for them, too?

I would try to take that same attitude with your wife. Her being as true as possible to herself is ultimately going to be best for you, too. I would encourage you to trust in that.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> As to the stuff I did - Basically she was in *a career she loved but that kept her away from the family much of the time.* I fought it constantly and was a real ass it on an ongoing basis about it rather that going to a professional to help mediate a compromise. *Resentment built and little things she did drove me crazy.* She admits she was half to blame, but I was someone that no one would want to live with. We have seen a counselor in the beginning to get past the issue, but it snowballed.
> 
> *But the shock of this whole situation put a lot in perspective.* So much of the things that seemed important at the time, really didn't matter. I was just trying to take control of a situation in which I felt powerless.


I really wish we could see the entire context of this situation. I hear that you are admit to being an ass to her and that this is what you perceive as driving her away. Did you stop to consider that perhaps she was never truly into this marriage from day one? Here are some items that I believe many on here would be curious about:


How much time did this career of hers take away from the family? We talking just 40 hrs a week vs you preferring her to be a SAHM? Or are we talking about the opposit extreme where she was gone weeks at a time or the majority of the week and she was at best a weekend mom? The former would be you being an ass. The latter would be something that would make most spouses take pause and want a change.
Was she the primary bread winner? Was her former job critical to the stability of the family? Or was her job secondary or similar to your level but could replaced with an equivalent job that would allow for more family time and was reasonably easy to switch?
Did her "dream job" directly affect her ability to spend quality time with you and the kids? How much time could she reasonably devote to the family with her former career of choice?
When she was at home, did she also regularly go out with friends in lieu of spending it with family?
Serious question: When your wife had her dream career, could you objectively state that she was married and had a family in name only? Was she detatched from you and the kids regularly even when home where she spent her time and efforts on this career of hers?

My interpretation of this situation:


There was a tangible issue with the wife about allowing her career to take priority in her life over her husband and family.
Husband is upset that their family is incomplete. Talks to the wife about his concerns, no action by wife, and as time drags on he gets more frustrated/resentful and takes it out on her.
Through no action on the husband's part, she loses her dream job. She feels pressured to switch careers (self pressure or from husband not clear yet) and does something else that is not as fulfilling so that time is available for her family.
She tied all of her self worth to her career, and now that it's not what she likes she feels a loss of identity and spirals into depression
Comforted by a female friend and engages in lesbian affair - most likely out of spite/resentment agains her husband AND IMHO her family because they simply exist and she can't do what she wants when she wants to because she's accountable to a husband and kids.
She's "willing" to give her husband and family a second chance.

What I THINK she is doing or has planned. She's renegotiating your relationship. She now knows that you are so smitten with her and keeping the family together, she now has leverage to get exactly what she wants. She's going to make a play to change back into her old career AND expect you to not only be happy with this but to allow her to take even MORE time away from you and the family just so she can have even more freedom to pursue what she wants and when.

IMHO, your wife is self absorbed and always put her own interests and desires ahead of you and the family. The moment she has to make a sacrifice for the family, she spirals into depression and acts out by having an affair. 

Your wife is nothing special, and IMHO it would be addition by subtraction if she jets off and leaves you and the kids to fend for yourselves. Let's be honest, you and the kids have already been fending for yourselves for the most part for awhile now. This interlude of having the wife/mom around has done nothing but showed you and the kids that the family is her #2 priority behind her dream career and freedom.

OP, I think you are too hard on yourself and that you most likely are rethinking what you did simply because you are afraid of losing your family unity. When you realize that you really didn't have a complete family from the get go, then what you will lose isn't so bad after all.

That's how I see this.


----------



## ConanHub

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks again for all the responses. Talking it through and hearing other view points has been helpful.
> 
> My particular situation aside, in the case of a cheating spouse who comes back, what can the cheatee do to help make the cheater fall back in romantic love with them? Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place. If the cheater comes back obviously they should be doing the heavy lifting to repair the relationship damage they caused, but how can the cheatee help on their side motivate the cheater to look at them instead of their ex for love and affection.
> 
> I know you guys are going to say this isn't my job - it's hers, but that aside, what can I do to help transition her away from the OW emotionally and back to me? Obviously I need to get her to choose me 100%, but what if shes not there yet and booting her out to figure it out isn't an option?
> 
> I gotta think for the cheater, the emotions aren't always as clear cut as "I made a huge mistake, let me win you back." I gotta think that in many cases, they still feel the pain of the breakup and still feel romantic feelings to the OW as well as the spouse - particularly in the case of being caught in the affair and breaking it off then vs. choosing to end it on their own and the coming clean. I imagine in the case of being caught, the emotions they feel can be very conflicting as they haven't had the change to transition out of the cheating relationship.


One..... You cannot own any part of her cheating. That is 100% on her and she needs to face it. If she snaps out of it and truly wants to R and is remorseful, You can work on yourself, to be a better husband and father, be more engaged emotionally. Read Five Love Languages and other marriage books to better learn how to love your wife.

As for competing with the b1tch who thought it would be funny to cheat with your wife and help destroy your family.......
There should be NO competition!!!

If your wife is remorseful, she will be on board for you 100% and trying to overcome her infidelity as well as becoming a better wife and mother to make your marriage stronger.

Your marriage does not even stand a chance as long as the affair is going on. Your wife needs to cut ALL contact with her AP and send her a NC letter approved by you.

Until she is remorseful, you need to work on you. Look up the 180 and improve yourself. A healthy individual is better for a healthy relationship. Be the absolute best dad you can be. Cut your wife off emotionally as long as she is involved with someone else, not committed to R with you.

Your love should be valued and exclusive. She should not be getting the comfort of a loving husband AND her AP.


----------



## tom67

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I really wish we could see the entire context of this situation. I hear that you are admit to being an ass to her and that this is what you perceive as driving her away. Did you stop to consider that perhaps she was never truly into this marriage from day one? Here are some items that I believe many on here would be curious about:
> 
> 
> How much time did this career of hers take away from the family? We talking just 40 hrs a week vs you preferring her to be a SAHM? Or are we talking about the opposit extreme where she was gone weeks at a time or the majority of the week and she was at best a weekend mom? The former would be you being an ass. The latter would be something that would make most spouses take pause and want a change.
> Was she the primary bread winner? Was her former job critical to the stability of the family? Or was her job secondary or similar to your level but could replaced with an equivalent job that would allow for more family time and was reasonably easy to switch?
> Did her "dream job" directly affect her ability to spend quality time with you and the kids? How much time could she reasonably devote to the family with her former career of choice?
> When she was at home, did she also regularly go out with friends in lieu of spending it with family?
> Serious question: When your wife had her dream career, could you objectively state that she was married and had a family in name only? Was she detatched from you and the kids regularly even when home where she spent her time and efforts on this career of hers?
> 
> My interpretation of this situation:
> 
> 
> There was a tangible issue with the wife about allowing her career to take priority in her life over her husband and family.
> Husband is upset that their family is incomplete. Talks to the wife about his concerns, no action by wife, and as time drags on he gets more frustrated/resentful and takes it out on her.
> Through no action on the husband's part, she loses her dream job. She feels pressured to switch careers (self pressure or from husband not clear yet) and does something else that is not as fulfilling so that time is available for her family.
> She tied all of her self worth to her career, and now that it's not what she likes she feels a loss of identity and spirals into depression
> Comforted by a female friend and engages in lesbian affair - most likely out of spite/resentment agains her husband AND IMHO her family because they simply exist and she can't do what she wants when she wants to because she's accountable to a husband and kids.
> She's "willing" to give her husband and family a second chance.
> 
> What I THINK she is doing or has planned. She's renegotiating your relationship. She now knows that you are so smitten with her and keeping the family together, she now has leverage to get exactly what she wants. She's going to make a play to change back into her old career AND expect you to not only be happy with this but to allow her to take even MORE time away from you and the family just so she can have even more freedom to pursue what she wants and when.
> 
> IMHO, your wife is self absorbed and always put her own interests and desires ahead of you and the family. The moment she has to make a sacrifice for the family, she spirals into depression and acts out by having an affair.
> 
> Your wife is nothing special, and IMHO it would be addition by subtraction if she jets off and leaves you and the kids to fend for yourselves. Let's be honest, you and the kids have already been fending for yourselves for the most part for awhile now. This interlude of having the wife/mom around has done nothing but showed you and the kids that the family is her #2 priority behind her dream career and freedom.
> 
> OP, I think you are too hard on yourself and that you most likely are rethinking what you did simply because you are afraid of losing your family unity. When you realize that you really didn't have a complete family from the get go, then what you will lose isn't so bad after all.
> 
> That's how I see this.


:iagree::iagree:
Totally agree with this scenario.
OP would you consider this to be accurate?
Think about it that's all.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ConanHub said:


> You can help her but not until she is at least remorseful for the affair and admitting her fault and how wrong her actions were.


She is remorseful, admits her faults, take accountability for what she did to contribute, and realizes how wrong her actions were. 

Unfortunately, all that doesn't change the fundamental situation. What she did was wrong and she realizes it, but due to bad decisions that she freely admits, she feels she is in love with two people, and is struggling with deciding which she wants her future to be with. 

If it was just me, I would probably say ok, give it a shot and let me know what you figure out. But there are kids involved and that process would not only be painful for all involved, but would decrease the chances of us working it out. The better option as this point (at least in my opinion) is to let her work it through here and hopefully she'll make the choice I am looking for. Essentially the OW is the person saying go and give it a shot and let me know what you figure out. Physical proximity has a lot to do with who you love I think. If we have two highly motivated parties involved both competing for one person, the one that person is physically with probably has a better chance of being chosen right?


----------



## Chaparral

It depends a lot on the counselor. Many are not that marriGe/friendly.

Many are follow your impulses blah blah blah. Others are realistic and promarriage. Others will happily advise divorce. Make sure you are happy with the counsellors. Do not hesitate to dump one. We even had one poster here who ended up with the counselor


----------



## tom67

FamilyMan15 said:


> She is remorseful, admits her faults, take accountability for what she did to contribute, and realizes how wrong her actions were.
> 
> Unfortunately, all that doesn't change the fundamental situation. What she did was wrong and she realizes it, but due to bad decisions that she freely admits, she feels she is in love with two people, and is struggling with deciding which she wants her future to be with.
> 
> If it was just me, I would probably say ok, give it a shot and let me know what you figure out. But there are kids involved and that process would not only be painful for all involved, but would decrease the chances of us working it out. The better option as this point (at least in my opinion) is to let her work it through here and hopefully she'll make the choice I am looking for. Essentially the OW is the person saying go and give it a shot and let me know what you figure out. Physical proximity has a lot to do with who you love I think. If we have two highly motivated parties involved both competing for one person, the one that person is physically with probably has a better chance of being chosen right?


Bottom line one cannot "nice" the other party back please read some other threads when you have time.


----------



## FamilyMan15

betrayed16 said:


> What are you doing to ensure that she is not in contact with OW? You're not just taking her word for it, are you? If she's telling you she's confused, I think there's a high likelihood that she's still communicating with OW. You need to make sure she's truly not contacting her. If she is, you'll never recover your marriage, and all the MC in the wirks won't help you.


She says she has completely cut contact and I have to take her word for it. I think she understands why that is important. She isn't hiding anything any more (at least that's what she says). Hopefully the counselor will reinforce the importance of that. Realize we are only 2 days out from her breakup, so I think those feelings are still pretty fresh for her. I asked her last night if there had been any contact and she said no and I don't think there would be a good reason to hide it. Her OW is looking for a long term relationship, so I think the OW is probably as committed to ensure that my wife figures out what she wants for sure if she did leave me and I think the OW understands that she needs some space to do it. That said, I'm sure she will reach out at some point. 

What else am I supposed to do? I can't monitor her every second and there are always ways to hide it so I would never know for sure. I think that kind of paranoia will drive me crazy. 

Ultimately, I need her to make a decision completely from her own feel will and can't shelter her forever. I do think the longer that I can delay that contact the better though.


----------



## jld

I think any efforts to try to control this gal, make her feel guilty, selfish, etc., are going to end in disappointment for both. That other woman is giving her time and space to figure things out, not trying to control her. Trying to control someone is probably the quickest way to drive them away.

Fwiw, I don't believe people choose their sexuality. She's trying to figure herself out, not hurt her husband in any way.


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> I can't monitor her every second and there are always ways to hide it so I would never know for sure. I think that kind of paranoia will drive me crazy.
> 
> Ultimately, I need her to make a decision completely from her own feel will and can't shelter her forever.


:iagree:


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

jld said:


> I think any efforts to try to control this gal, make her feel guilty, selfish, etc., are going to end in disappointment for both. That other woman is giving her time and space to figure things out, not trying to control her. Trying to control someone is probably the quickest way to drive them away.
> 
> Fwiw, *I don't believe people choose their sexuality. * She's trying to figure herself out, not hurt her husband in any way.


That is probably accurate. However, a mature adult who has been in relationships for awhile doesn't just wake up one day and question whether he/she is actually into the same sex. Either she always had that attraction and lied about it to herself and everyone, or she really isn't a lesbian after all.


----------



## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks again for all the responses. Talking it through and hearing other view points has been helpful.
> 
> My particular situation aside, in the case of a cheating spouse who comes back, what can the cheatee do to help make the cheater fall back in romantic love with them? Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place. If the cheater comes back obviously they should be doing the heavy lifting to repair the relationship damage they caused, but how can the cheatee help on their side motivate the cheater to look at them instead of their ex for love and affection.
> 
> I know you guys are going to say this isn't my job - it's hers, but that aside, what can I do to help transition her away from the OW emotionally and back to me? Obviously I need to get her to choose me 100%, but what if shes not there yet and booting her out to figure it out isn't an option?
> 
> I gotta think for the cheater, the emotions aren't always as clear cut as "I made a huge mistake, let me win you back." I gotta think that in many cases, they still feel the pain of the breakup and still feel romantic feelings to the OW as well as the spouse - particularly in the case of being caught in the affair and breaking it off then vs. choosing to end it on their own and the coming clean. I imagine in the case of being caught, the emotions they feel can be very conflicting as they haven't had the change to transition out of the cheating relationship.


To be honest what I've taken from your situation is that your wife has a track record of putting other things in front of her "duty" as wife and mother. First it was her career and now it is a person that she knows you cannot compete with. I think what she should be concentrating on is her fear of committing to the role she has cultivated. Until that has been fleshed out I don't see how she can be a good wife or mother.


----------



## ConanHub

OP. What I and others are trying to say is that it cannot be a competition. There is a wealth of information that will help you strengthen your relationship with your wife but none of it will help you with this bvllshyt game your wife and her AP have set up.

Your wife's AP has set the stage and the rules for this "contest".

For your marriage to stand a chance, the AP cannot be an option!!! EVER!!!!

She is still very much in your wife's mind and heart with this scenario that is playing out. I don't care what gender your wife is attracted to. R will NOT work in the situation that you have set up.

I do think your wife could benefit from IC but your best bet is to lay things on the line for her.

You should let her know that you are willing to give her another chance and that you realize that you can and will be a better husband, take no blame for the affair, but until she stops playing games with EVERYONE, you, herself and her children, you are going to distance yourself from her and work on yourself.

Also, if she won't get herself figured out, get a time limit in place. You don't deserve to be in limbo forever.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> She says she has completely cut contact and I have to take her word for it. I think she understands why that is important. She isn't hiding anything any more (at least that's what she says). Hopefully the counselor will reinforce the importance of that. Realize we are only 2 days out from her breakup, so I think those feelings are still pretty fresh for her. I asked her last night if there had been any contact and she said no and I don't think there would be a good reason to hide it. Her OW is looking for a long term relationship, so I think the OW is probably as committed to ensure that my wife figures out what she wants for sure if she did leave me and I think the OW understands that she needs some space to do it. That said, I'm sure she will reach out at some point.
> 
> *What else am I supposed to do?* I can't monitor her every second and there are always ways to hide it so I would never know for sure. I think that kind of paranoia will drive me crazy.
> 
> Ultimately, I need her to make a decision completely from her own feel will and can't shelter her forever. I do think the longer that I can delay that contact the better though.


IMHO, before you even think about what to do about your wife, you need to figure out where you stand. I'm not talking about where you stand post affair, I'm talking about where you rated during this entire marriage. What you need to figure out is whether you were ever her first priority to begin with. Based on what you wrote, I think I know the answer to that. However, you know a lot more about this situation than I do. So really, it's up to you to assess your entire marriage honestly. You CANNOT look at your situation and analyze it out of fear that you made mistakes or out of desire for a certain outcome. You need to look at it in a purely objective manner. 

Did your wife, by her actions, ever put you first in this marriage? Or did you wife always have someone, a thing or an idea that she rated higher than you through the majority of your marriage? Do not think back to what she ever said to you, think back about how she demonstrated her view of where you stand in her mind. 

Once you do that, IMHO your situation will become a whole lot more clear to you.


----------



## jld

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That is probably accurate. However, a mature adult who has been in relationships for awhile doesn't just wake up one day and question whether he/she is actually into the same sex. Either she always had that attraction and lied about it to herself and everyone, or she really isn't a lesbian after all.


Ann Landers had a column on this. A husband had written in with a similar situation to the OP's. He was understandably angry and hurt. Ann told him his wife had likely been fighting these homosexual urges for a long time.

Sadly, humans lie to themselves. That's why I think honesty and openness are so important. 

But to be open and honest, most people have to feel safe. They have to think that other people will try to understand them and not just condemn them.

Personally, OP, I don't think it's a good sign that she is feeling confused. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but it's my honest thought.

If I were you, I would try to be as non-controlling and understanding as possible. I would also start making a practical plan for when she leaves you.


----------



## jld

Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Google News Archive Search

The Ann Landers column.


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> My particular situation aside, in the case of a cheating spouse who comes back, what can the cheatee do to help make the cheater fall back in romantic love with them? Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place.


 The statement that "Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place" is false, as studies show that many cheaters do not really believe that there was something wrong with the marriage when they cheated. Cheaters cheat because they want more than what monogamy will allow them to have. The reason that she is having a problem choosing is because she really wants both you and her affair partner. This has nothing to do with there being anything wrong with you or your marriage. This has everything to do with her being selfish.

As far as making her fall in love with you again, that cannot happen as long as she has her affair partner in her heart. There are addictive brain drugs that are only released in new romantic relationships. Over time in a relationship these drugs stop being released, this is normal. Cheater are addicted to these new relationship brain drugs and think that this is love. You cannot compete with these new relationship brain drugs any more than a spouse can compete with a spouse addicted to drugs. Again, this has nothing to do with you or you being a better husband or lover. Many betrayed spouse want to accept blame because this means that they can do something to fix it. Accepting that the affair had nothing to do with you being a bad spouse, is hard because this means that maybe the real problem is that your spouse is just broken, and that you may not be able to fix that.


----------



## ButtPunch

"Confused" = Cake Eating

This story is no different than if the other woman was an other man.

OP.....You seem too desperate to save your marriage. She cheated plain and simple and you need to be pi$$ed. Like Plan 9 stated she is leveraging your weakness into a new marriage where her needs will be met and you and the kids are secondary.


----------



## Youngster

Expose the affair to family and friends. Your at a point where you need some outside support. This isn't about punishing your wife, it's about getting help from your loved ones. If the marriage should eventually fail, at least everyone will know the truth and that you weren't to blame.


----------



## Q tip

Expose far and wide. Family, friends. Yours and hers.


----------



## tom67

Q tip said:


> Expose far and wide. Family, friends. Yours and hers.


:iagree:
Nothing to lose at this point.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

TRy said:


> The statement that "Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place" is false, as studies show that many cheaters do not really believe that there was something wrong with the marriage when they cheated.


I don't agree with that conclusion from the study you are referencing because it's difficult to objectively measure something like this because the data is attribute in nature. I wouldn't disagree that many people may have stated they saw nothing wrong with the marriage but still cheated. The question you need to ask though, is this statement demonstrably true or is it a case of not knowing what you do not know.

I think a percentage of the crowd who state that they cheated even though marriage was fine actually cheated because they later realized that they were missing something. Consider a situation where you have a reasonably happy couple, but maybe thru a friendship that blurs boundaries "John" finds out that his friend "Lisa" loves giving oral and wishes her husband wanted sex daily. Maybe John is getting sex 1/week with a woman that that rarely gives oral. He's content at the time, but after finding out about what he could have with Lisa he feels like he's missing out. And then...

Same situation we've read about where a guy marries a girl and he's happy with his sex life. They pretty much do A, B and C routinely and little else. He's happy, she's happy. Then he finds out that his wife used to do X, Y and Z with her last BF's but never did with her H. Guess what the H probably wants now? X, Y and Z. He was happy then, but now he feels cheated out of what he could have had. 

Your relationship dynamics play a greater role in infidelity than many want to admit to. JMO, but I think more cases are connected than not - even if the marriage was fine until the person learns that he/she is lacking in something.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I really wish we could see the entire context of this situation. I hear that you are admit to being an ass to her and that this is what you perceive as driving her away. Did you stop to consider that perhaps she was never truly into this marriage from day one? Here are some items that I believe many on here would be curious about:
> 
> 
> How much time did this career of hers take away from the family? We talking just 40 hrs a week vs you preferring her to be a SAHM? Or are we talking about the opposit extreme where she was gone weeks at a time or the majority of the week and she was at best a weekend mom? The former would be you being an ass. The latter would be something that would make most spouses take pause and want a change.
> Was she the primary bread winner? Was her former job critical to the stability of the family? Or was her job secondary or similar to your level but could replaced with an equivalent job that would allow for more family time and was reasonably easy to switch?
> Did her "dream job" directly affect her ability to spend quality time with you and the kids? How much time could she reasonably devote to the family with her former career of choice?
> When she was at home, did she also regularly go out with friends in lieu of spending it with family?
> Serious question: When your wife had her dream career, could you objectively state that she was married and had a family in name only? Was she detatched from you and the kids regularly even when home where she spent her time and efforts on this career of hers?


So to add the additional detail:
1. How much time did this career of hers take away from the family? 
> 40 hours/wk + additional 4ish evenings (or partial weekends) per week. Additional on call responsibilities outside that. Think maybe something like a doctors schedule (although she wasn't a doctor). She also has issues with getting personally invested with the people she was helping, so it felt like she was constantly working. While she genuinely loved her job, she eventually realized that she couldn't have it and a family. I actually asked her yesterday if she would ever go back to that job and she said even though she loved it, she just couldn't because of how much it took her away from home. Her current job is a standard 8-5 office job that isn't nearly as personally fulfilling. I don't think I was wrong to fight it, but how I went about it was all wrong (constant nagging, complaining and depression). Initially I was very happy that she was happy and supported her job, but as the work hours increased, it turned bad. I don't want her to be a stay at home mom. I want her to be fulfilled and personally happy.

2. Was she the primary bread winner? 
>No - we were equal and she could have switched to a similar paying job that allowed for more balance but wasn't nearly as personally fulfilling to her. That was a lot of the conflict.

3. Did her "dream job" directly affect her ability to spend quality time with you and the kids? How much time could she reasonably devote to the family with her former career of choice? 
> Absolutely. In the evenings she worked she would usually get home after the kids were asleep. We typically got a couple evenings and a weekend day with her. and those were often intruded by work. Again, lots of the conflict were around this issue. It wasn't that way in the beginning, but it slowly grew into that. Again, she eventually realized this, but at that point, we had been fighting so long that we were in trouble. Her next job she didn't really like but ended up being a 60+ hr week high stress job and a lot of the conflicts continued.

4. When she was at home, did she also regularly go out with friends in lieu of spending it with family?
> Some. We both felt like she needed some social contact outside the family, but sometimes it felt like there was little time left. There was some conflict over this, but a I think she felt conflicted as well - "I've been gone all week, and haven't seen the family, but need some friend time as well." This was much less of an issue than the careers in general.

5. Serious question: When your wife had her dream career, could you objectively state that she was married and had a family in name only? 
> This wasn't the case. Her dream job was streaky from month to month. For several months at a time she would work a lot, then other times she would have lots of free time. Lets pretend she was a NFL referee (she wasn't). During the football season, she would be gone a lot, but in between she had lots of free time. This is pretty close to the schedule. Those free times were awesome even during the bad years. Great mom, great wife, great physical/emotional intimacy. 

Sorry to be vague - trying not to give out too much identifying information. More responses in another reply.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> My interpretation of this situation:
> 
> 
> There was a tangible issue with the wife about allowing her career to take priority in her life over her husband and family.
> Husband is upset that their family is incomplete. Talks to the wife about his concerns, no action by wife, and as time drags on he gets more frustrated/resentful and takes it out on her.
> Through no action on the husband's part, she loses her dream job. She feels pressured to switch careers (self pressure or from husband not clear yet) and does something else that is not as fulfilling so that time is available for her family.
> She tied all of her self worth to her career, and now that it's not what she likes she feels a loss of identity and spirals into depression
> Comforted by a female friend and engages in lesbian affair - most likely out of spite/resentment agains her husband AND IMHO her family because they simply exist and she can't do what she wants when she wants to because she's accountable to a husband and kids.
> She's "willing" to give her husband and family a second chance.


This is pretty darn close. I don't think the affair was out of spite necessarily, more she just didn't like me any more at the time and the OW was able to fill her emotional intimacy needs that I wasn't meeting any longer. I don't know about the resentment against the kids (unless it is subconscious). They were still part of her future plans with the OW. I don't think she would go back to her dream job if we end up splitting up. The kids are too important and she realized that at the end.

I wouldn't necessarily say she is "willing" to give us a second chance yet. She is simply willing to live here while we go through counseling. She is still working through those feelings and wants to commit to a life - just doesn't know which yet. Yes that sucks.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> "Confused" = Cake Eating
> 
> This story is no different than if the other woman was an other man.
> 
> OP.....You seem too desperate to save your marriage. She cheated plain and simple and you need to be pi$$ed. Like Plan 9 stated she is leveraging your weakness into a new marriage where her needs will be met and you and the kids are secondary.


I don't think she's leveraging anything. I don't think she's plotting, planning or intentionally doing anything devious. I think she's genuinely confused.


----------



## ButtPunch

I think you sir are still in some shock and denial. Your wife is a selfish cheater. End of story. Any reconciliation attempt must be on your terms. If she is not "willing" well there's your answer.

I attribute your feelings to the BS fog. As soon as that fog clears, you will be able to see things clearly and objectively.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What I THINK she is doing or has planned. She's renegotiating your relationship. She now knows that you are so smitten with her and keeping the family together, she now has leverage to get exactly what she wants. She's going to make a play to change back into her old career AND expect you to not only be happy with this but to allow her to take even MORE time away from you and the family just so she can have even more freedom to pursue what she wants and when.


I don't think this is the case. She not asking for anything right now, just the chance to work through her feelings. She doesn't want to go back to that career - I think she learned a lot of hard lessons. She's just conflicted on how to balance work and life and still have a meaningful career. 

and I'm not offering anything more than the person I used to be before all this conflict started. I just needed to shift out of ass mode more a lot earlier. 

The work/life situation changed for the positive in Oct (and would have been a perfect set up for us to rebuild our relationship), but by that point our relationship was super bad and she had already started the affair. It kills me that if she just had said no at the time to the OW, we actually situationally are in a good place to heal now. She regrets that as well. But that doesn't change where we are now.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I don't think she's leveraging anything. I don't think she's plotting, planning or intentionally doing anything devious. I think she's genuinely confused.


IMO....This is garbage. I wish I had a dollar for every "confused" WS I've seen on this site.


----------



## jld

Youngster said:


> Expose the affair to family and friends. Your at a point where you need some outside support. This isn't about punishing your wife, it's about getting help from your loved ones. If the marriage should eventually fail, at least everyone will know the truth and that you weren't to blame.


No one is going to blame him for his wife's leaving him for another woman. How could he be to blame for her discovering her sexuality?

If she goes with the other woman, eventually everyone is going to realize her sexuality. I think his broadcasting it to people is going to make him look desperate, and possibly homophobic.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> No one is going to blame him for his wife's leaving him for another woman. How could he be to blame for her discovering her sexuality?
> 
> If she goes with the other woman, eventually everyone is going to realize her sexuality. I think his broadcasting it to people is going to make him look desperate, and possibly homophobic.


Puuhhleeaasse.

She's manipulating him with the fact that the AP is of the same sex. That's all.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ConanHub said:


> Your marriage does not even stand a chance as long as the affair is going on. Your wife needs to cut ALL contact with her AP and send her a NC letter approved by you.


I agree. She has done this and I believe that the contact has stopped. Never the less, she still working through which path she wants to follow (family or the OW). I think she is hoping that the counselor can help her with this. Her intention is to give us a real chance, but the fundamental problem is that she still has feelings for the OW. But the fundamental problem is that she can't give us a real chance while still having those feelings. That's her real conflict and where a professionsl comes in.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Puuhhleeaasse.
> 
> She's manipulating him with the fact that the AP is of the same sex. That's all.


He doesn't seem to think she's a manipulator. I think he believes she's sincere, that she's really trying to work through her feelings.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> It depends a lot on the counselor. Many are not that marriGe/friendly.
> 
> Many are follow your impulses blah blah blah. Others are realistic and promarriage. Others will happily advise divorce. Make sure you are happy with the counsellors. Do not hesitate to dump one. We even had one poster here who ended up with the counselor


I am nervous about this as the counselor is a key part of this. Any suggested questions I could ask to figure out if our person is a good match for what I am looking to get out of this (reconciliation)?

I'm even more concerned about her individual "am I gay or not" counselor. I'd rather them look at it critically "you haven't been gay for 15 years. Do you get aroused looking at women in general or is this an emotional thing?" vs. the angle of "it's worth exploring if you are questioning it".


----------



## TRy

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I don't agree with that conclusion from the study you are referencing because it's difficult to objectively measure something like this because the data is attribute in nature. I wouldn't disagree that many people may have stated they saw nothing wrong with the marriage but still cheated. The question you need to ask though, is this statement demonstrably true or is it a case of not knowing what you do not know.
> 
> I think a percentage of the crowd who state that they cheated even though marriage was fine actually cheated because they later realized that they were missing something.


 When the OP stated that "Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place" I disagreed stating that "studies show that many cheaters do not really believe that there was something wrong with the marriage when they cheated." Although it could be true that something was wrong in the marriage, I stated that it is not obviously true as may times there was nothing wrong with the marriage. By disagreeing with me you are actually saying that when people cheat their was something obviously wrong in the marriage and that the prospect that many times there was nothing wrong is not even a possibility. Do you really believe that the betrayed spouse is always doing something wrong in the marriage? If so we will have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> He doesn't seem to think she's a manipulator. .


SHE'S a cheater....of course she manipulates.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> I think any efforts to try to control this gal, make her feel guilty, selfish, etc., are going to end in disappointment for both. That other woman is giving her time and space to figure things out, not trying to control her. Trying to control someone is probably the quickest way to drive them away.
> 
> Fwiw, I don't believe people choose their sexuality. She's trying to figure herself out, not hurt her husband in any way.


This are my thoughts as well. I think she is trying to figure out if this is the lifestyle that she wants going forward or something that she was simply vulnerable to in a bad situation. Still doesn't make it right obviously.

How do I help her figure that out?


----------



## ButtPunch

OP

Whatever your wife is going thru, you will not be able to "manage" her recovery. Like Happyman stated, your focus needs to be on yourself. Aside from verifying that there isn't any more contact with the OW, there isn't much you can do to solve this. This is all on her. 

Follow the 180 and improve yourself. That is really the only thing you have control over.


----------



## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> How do I help her figure that out?


You can't.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> That is probably accurate. However, a mature adult who has been in relationships for awhile doesn't just wake up one day and question whether he/she is actually into the same sex. Either she always had that attraction and lied about it to herself and everyone, or she really isn't a lesbian after all.


I agree as well. As a first hand participant, I know she was into me physically for the vast majority of our marriage. Even in the recent past. Still doesn't mean she isn't on the bi spectrum, but I really believe it was a situational vulnerability thing. Her current emotions are making this hard for her to distinguish. I think she is thinking "was I just ok with it at the time because of the emotions involved or am I really gay?" The former means our relationship has hope. The later (she's gay) means we have no chance and we would be wasting our time and worst case we don't really figure that out for years. That's what she is trying to figure out I think.


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> This are my thoughts as well. I think she is trying to figure out if this is the lifestyle that she wants going forward or something that she was simply vulnerable to in a bad situation. Still doesn't make it right obviously.
> 
> How do I help her figure that out?


Well, I am not an expert, but I would think encouraging her to be as open and honest as possible, without threat of shaming or punishment, would help.

Have you contacted Faithful Wife yet, as Conan suggested? I would send her a pm and ask her to join this thread. She is a bisexual female in a happy, monogamous marriage to a man. She would surely be a great source of advice.


----------



## lordmayhem

So how long are you going to let her sit on the fence and cake eat? An affair is an affair is an affair, no matter the sex of the affair partner. 

Either she's in or she's out. It's as simple as that. If my fWW told me that she's confused about her feelings about her OM and me, I'd tell her to GTFO and be with him. Frack that being on the fence crap. Her sexuality is IRRELEVANT when it comes to an affair. 

Serve her the D papers now. Stop living in limbo.


----------



## Youngster

jld said:


> No one is going to blame him for his wife's leaving him for another woman. How could he be to blame for her discovering her sexuality?
> 
> If she goes with the other woman, eventually everyone is going to realize her sexuality. I think his broadcasting it to people is going to make him look desperate, and possibly homophobic.


Read my post again, you missed a couple of sentences. 

The OP needs support from his family and friends. Quite frankly it doesn't matter if his wife is into bestiality, he needs his loved ones to know what is going on. Why he's distant, upset, angry. Why he needs babysitters and help with the kids so he can attend IC/etc. 

Friends and family also need to know that his wife CHEATED. Doesn't matter whether it was with a man, woman, dog or dead person. Everyone needs to know what's going on so they can provide appropriate support to him AND her. 

If they were to split I have no doubt his wife would try to cover up the fact that she CHEATED before they divorced. You're giving his wife a pass due to her perceived sexual orientation. If she's really a lesbian she should first divorce her husband before she enters into another relationship.


----------



## jld

Youngster said:


> If she's really a lesbian she should first divorce her husband before she enters into another relationship.


I'm sure she will. But first she's trying to figure out if she is going to go down that path or not.

I think OP is doing a great job being patient and sensitive, and giving her time to process her feelings. He is certainly welcome to simply start divorce proceedings, but I don't think he wants to do that at this time.

I'm sure eventually it will be known that she cheated. Thing is, in the case of a partner realizing they are actually homosexual, other people may not be as likely to be judgmental. They might actually be more judgmental towards the OP for talking about it without his wife's permission.


----------



## Q tip

jld said:


> No one is going to blame him for his wife's leaving him for another woman. How could he be to blame for her discovering her sexuality?
> 
> If she goes with the other woman, eventually everyone is going to realize her sexuality. I think his broadcasting it to people is going to make him look desperate, and possibly homophobic.
> 
> (Another one)
> I'm sure she will. But first she's trying to figure out if she is going to go down that path or not.
> 
> I think OP is doing a great job being patient and sensitive, and giving her time to process her feelings. He is certainly welcome to simply start divorce proceedings, but I don't think he wants to do that at this time.
> 
> I'm sure eventually it will be known that she cheated. Thing is, in the case of a partner realizing they are actually homosexual, other people may not be as likely to be judgmental. They might actually be more judgmental towards the OP for talking about it without his wife's permission.


I call Bull Sh!t. Cheating is cheating. Shed the light of truth on it all.

So, it's become such a PC world that the truth takes a back seat.

Expose her to all.

She broke her vows. Cheating and lying have consequences. You can't pour sugar over all this mess and have a nice breakfast.

You did not "mean" her into this. You cannot "nice" her back.


----------



## lordmayhem

FamilyMan15 said:


> She says she has completely cut contact and *I have to take her word for it*. I think she understands why that is important. *She isn't hiding anything any more (at least that's what she says)*. Hopefully the counselor will reinforce the importance of that.


So you're gonna take her word for it? Do you know how many times we've read that here? Only to find out that it has gone underground. NEVER EVER take a cheaters word for anything, especially in the beginning.












FamilyMan15 said:


> What else am I supposed to do? I can't monitor her every second and there are always ways to hide it so I would never know for sure. I think that kind of paranoia will drive me crazy.


Ever heard of trust but verify? Installing a key logger for starters and a VAR in the vehicle. Otherwise, you're just sticking your head in the sand. If you aren't strong enough to monitor, then you aren't strong enough to save your marriage or move on in life.












FamilyMan15 said:


> Ultimately, I need her to make a decision completely from her own feel will and can't shelter her forever. I do think the longer that I can delay that contact the better though.


This is sooooooo beta. Either she's in or out. Give the ultimatum now. She either goes NC forever or she's out.


----------



## jld

Q tip said:


> I call Bull Sh!t. Cheating is cheating. Shed the light of truth on it all.
> 
> So, it's become such a PC world that the truth takes a back seat.
> 
> Expose her to all.
> 
> She broke her vows. Cheating and lying have consequences. You can't pour sugar over all this mess and have a nice breakfast.
> 
> You did not "mean" her into this. You cannot "nice" her back.


He can't "control tactic" her back, either, guys.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> This is pretty darn close. I don't think the affair was out of spite necessarily, more she just didn't like me any more at the time and the OW was able to fill her emotional intimacy needs that I wasn't meeting any longer. I don't know about the resentment against the kids (unless it is subconscious). They were still part of her future plans with the OW. *I don't think she would go back to her dream job if we end up splitting up. The kids are too important and she realized that at the end.*
> 
> I wouldn't necessarily say she is "willing" to give us a second chance yet. She is simply willing to live here while we go through counseling. She is still working through those feelings and wants to commit to a life - just doesn't know which yet. Yes that sucks.


If I recall correctly, the only reason she quit her dream job was because she was laid off. If she wouldn't have been laid off, do you think she would have ultimately came to the same conclusion? 

I'm not going to allow you to keep thinking that without a response. If my earlier assessment was accurate, then you first talked to her in a more honest way and then became for of an ass the longer this dragged out. But the flip side is why did she NOT take action on her side after seeing what her job was costing her with her family and based on your feedback? Again, you hear her words about this job not being good for the family and she will never go back to it again. But what did she tell you through her actions? Did she quit on her own or did she lose the job? When she finally had more time to spend with the family, did she draw closer to you or did she run into the arms of another?

By your wife's actions, how does she really feel about you? So far, all you have told us is what she is saying. You haven't told us where you stand based on her actions.


----------



## betrayed16

jld said:


> I'm sure she will. But first she's trying to figure out if she is going to go down that path or not.
> 
> I think OP is doing a great job being patient and sensitive, and giving her time to process her feelings. He is certainly welcome to simply start divorce proceedings, but I don't think he wants to do that at this time.
> 
> I'm sure eventually it will be known that she cheated. Thing is, in the case of a partner realizing they are actually homosexual, other people may not be as likely to be judgmental. They might actually be more judgmental towards the OP for talking about it without his wife's permission.


That's ridiculous. If she "realized" she was actually homosexual, she had a duty to tell her husband so that they could decide what to do about the marriage. Having an affair is not an option when you're married.


----------



## Youngster

jld said:


> I'm sure she will. *But first she's trying to figure out if she is going to go down that path or not.*
> 
> I think OP is doing a great job being patient and sensitive, and giving her time to process her feelings. He is certainly welcome to simply start divorce proceedings, but I don't think he wants to do that at this time.
> 
> I'm sure eventually it will be known that she cheated. Thing is, in the case of a partner realizing they are actually homosexual, other people may not be as likely to be judgmental. They might actually be more judgmental towards the OP for talking about it without his wife's permission.


That's the problem, if you're unsure about the relationship you end it before you start exploring other options. 

What if his wife wants to sleep around with multiple people because she's "not sure" what she wants. Does that make her behavior OK?


----------



## convert

jld said:


> He can't "control tactic" her back, either, guys.


I agree but he can establish boundaries, and often boundaries are confused with being controlling.


----------



## lordmayhem

convert said:


> I agree but he can establish boundaries, and often boundaries are confused with being controlling.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

And I'm sick to death of this "controlling" card that some members use. It's cheaterspeak.


----------



## ButtPunch

Finally

The cavalry is here.


----------



## ButtPunch

OP

You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. 

I know from experience. I am one of the few on here who have successfully reconciled with a cheater. Every time you try to nice her back she loses a little more respect for you as a man.


----------



## lordmayhem

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> 
> You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.
> 
> I know from experience. I am one of the few on here who have successfully reconciled with a cheater. Every time you try to nice her back she loses a little more respect for you as a man.


Same here. I'm also among the few who have successfully R'd.

Kicking them off the fence, one way or the other, is usually the only hope. 

This particular WW's head is still in the affair. This is why NC is a must, and that NC must be verified.


----------



## Q tip

jld said:


> He can't "control tactic" her back, either, guys.


Hard to want a cheat to return. Rs fail all the time. Poorly executed Rs never work

So a WS ain't controlling, manipulating or lying. GMAFB.


----------



## harrybrown

Have you told her about her cheating and the pain for her kids over her selfishness?

www.yahoo.com/parenting/kids-are-resilient-and-7-other-lies-divorcing-107330654983.html


----------



## MattMatt

Please someone. Remind me. What is the difference between heterosexual cheating, homosexual cheating and bi-sexual cheating?:scratchhead:

Oh! I had the answer all along!

*There is no difference. Cheating is cheating.*


----------



## Q tip

MattMatt said:


> Please someone. Remind me. What is the difference between heterosexual cheating, homosexual cheating and bi-sexual cheating?:scratchhead:
> 
> Oh! I had the answer all along!
> 
> *There is no difference. Cheating is cheating.*


Just a QFT. Dontcha just love this mattmatt dude?

Next she'll say "I just wanted to see if I was a *****..." Oh, she did already...


----------



## MattMatt

Q tip said:


> Just a QFT. Dontcha just love this mattmatt dude?
> 
> Next she'll say "I just wanted to see if I was a *****..." Oh, she did already...


Thank you!


----------



## ConanHub

MattMatt said:


> Thank you!


Preaching to the choir here bro!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks again for all the responses. Talking it through and hearing other view points has been helpful.
> 
> My particular situation aside, in the case of a cheating spouse who comes back, what can the cheatee do to help make the cheater fall back in romantic love with them? Obviously, something was wrong in the marriage or one party wouldn't have stepped out in the first place. If the cheater comes back obviously they should be doing the heavy lifting to repair the relationship damage they caused, but how can the cheatee help on their side motivate the cheater to look at them instead of their ex for love and affection.
> 
> I know you guys are going to say this isn't my job - it's hers, but that aside, what can I do to help transition her away from the OW emotionally and back to me? Obviously I need to get her to choose me 100%, but what if shes not there yet and booting her out to figure it out isn't an option?


You are making a big mistake here. Infidelity takes only one person. A reconciliation takes TWO people.

Of course she has to pull her weight in a reconciliation. But you have work to do as well. In your first post you listed some of the bad things you've done that hurt the marriage. You have to fix those. And you need to be able to talk to your wife about any other problems she has with you and which you have with her. And those need to be fixed as well.

Do not listen to the folks who claim that all the work in a reconciliation is on her. I guarantee that will not work.




> I gotta think for the cheater, the emotions aren't always as clear cut as "I made a huge mistake, let me win you back." I gotta think that in many cases, they still feel the pain of the breakup and still feel romantic feelings to the OW as well as the spouse - particularly in the case of being caught in the affair and breaking it off then vs. choosing to end it on their own and the coming clean. I imagine in the case of being caught, the emotions they feel can be very conflicting as they haven't had the change to transition out of the cheating relationship.


This is true. You need to be sensitive to her conditions and not to expect miracles. Your case is not totally like the usual sort of infidelity, woman-woman relationships are, I am told (being male) are different than man-woman relationships. They often depend more on emotional satisfaction and less on physical satisfaction, although that is a strong element as well.

Last, let me say that I think that you are right. Your wife still cares for you and for your family. That's why you have to try to fix what you've done to weaken the marriage so as to make it more inviting to come back.


----------



## sidney2718

Let me through some gasoline onto this fire. It is often said that cheating is never right, and I agree.

However the amount of cheating in the US (and I suspect the western world) is enormous. About 1/3 of all divorces or breakups of unmarried couples is due to cheating. And that's a huge number

Add to that the number of affairs that are never detected and you have a whopping huge number.

So it is clear that folks have voted on the cheating issue. Cheating is widely acted upon as a relief from the pains of a marriage, a way to gain affection, a way to experience exciting sex again, and loads more reasons.

We may not like this situation. I certainly don't. But it is wrong to act as if cheating is some strange abnormal reaction to the normal stresses of married life. It isn't. It is common. And that's why we are here. We have to help those affected by infidelity by giving advice to help the OP get what the OP wants, not what we want.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

sidney2718 said:


> We have to help those affected by infidelity by giving advice to help the OP get what the OP wants, not what we want.


No, this is not how advice works.


----------



## ConanHub

If someone wanted to shove a running chainsaw up there butt, I would not help them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Also, the commonality of evil does not detract from the evil.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jung_admirer

sidney2718 said:


> Let me through some gasoline onto this fire. It is often said that cheating is never right, and I agree.
> 
> However the amount of cheating in the US (and I suspect the western world) is enormous. About 1/3 of all divorces or breakups of unmarried couples is due to cheating. And that's a huge number
> 
> Add to that the number of affairs that are never detected and you have a whopping huge number.
> 
> So it is clear that folks have voted on the cheating issue. Cheating is widely acted upon as a relief from the pains of a marriage, a way to gain affection, a way to experience exciting sex again, and loads more reasons.
> 
> We may not like this situation. I certainly don't. But it is wrong to act as if cheating is some strange abnormal reaction to the normal stresses of married life. It isn't. It is common. And that's why we are here. We have to help those affected by infidelity by giving advice to help the OP get what the OP wants, not what we want.


The vast majority of cheating has nothing to do with the stresses of married life. It has to due with the very personal struggles of someone who happens to be married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

In reading the OP's responses I get a vision of a lap pet in competition.

One that was used to being the only one getting treats from it's master. That is until one day, when another pet showed up. Then it all changed.

Now he's competing with the other one every time the owner looks his way. He sits a little faster, barks a little louder and rolls over a little further to out shine. Doing anything and everything to just get those treats to come his way. And even if the other pet get's the next treat, he'll just sit there patiently, waiting. Hoping that he'll get something before the treat bag goes back into the cupboard again...

Sad.


----------



## Youngster

sidney2718 said:


> Let me through some gasoline onto this fire. It is often said that cheating is never right, and I agree.
> 
> However the amount of cheating in the US (and I suspect the western world) is enormous. About 1/3 of all divorces or breakups of unmarried couples is due to cheating. And that's a huge number
> 
> Add to that the number of affairs that are never detected and you have a whopping huge number.
> 
> So it is clear that folks have voted on the cheating issue. Cheating is widely acted upon as a relief from the pains of a marriage, a way to gain affection, a way to experience exciting sex again, and loads more reasons.
> 
> We may not like this situation. I certainly don't. But it is wrong to act as if cheating is some strange abnormal reaction to the normal stresses of married life. It isn't. It is common. And that's why we are here. We have to help those affected by infidelity by giving advice to help the OP get what the OP wants, not what we want.


What percentage of Germans sat on their butt's and allowed the holocaust to happen? 

I'm in no way equating infidelity to genocide but just because a majority of people, or even a significant percentage do something doesn't make it right. 

A significant percentage of drivers in New England are reckless and should lose their license......doesn't mean it's OK for everyone to act that way.


----------



## NotLikeYou

FamilyMan15 said:


> The first 15 years of my marriage were awesome. My wife and I met in college and were very much in love. Lots of love throughout our marriage and great physical and emotional intimacy. We have two elementary-age children.
> 
> But the last 4 years have been a struggle. New jobs and relationship led to lots of conflicts over careers and priorities etc.. that slowly deteriorated our relationship until my wife had an affair with a woman starting in 4 months ago. I just discovered it. She had been going through an identity crisis for the last year due to the loss of a career and was at a low point in our marriage. She has recently broken the relationship off to attempt reconciliation, but is questioning her sexuality and if reconciliation is even possible.
> 
> She is currently living at home and is willing to seek counseling (we are going next week), but ultimately she is torn between a potential new life with her girlfriend and her loyalty to her family and husband. She is concerned that if the sexuality issues are unaddressed, once the children leave, we will split up and it will be too late to start a new life. It wasn't a fling - they had long-term plans to raise children etc...
> 
> I realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship. . My current plan is to make extraordinary effort to show her thUltimately, I love her more than anything and want to save out marriageat I can be the person that she used to love and see a counselor for advice along the way. She has agreed... at least for now. I hope that with time with the new me and counseling to help resolve our issues, her love can be rekindled and we can save our marriage and family. Faced with losing my wife, all the old issues that seemed so big at the time are suddenly insignificant. But if she truly is a lesbian (vs. it being a situational thing), there is not much I can do.
> 
> Fundamental problem #1: Wife says she is deeply questioning her sexuality (and has been for the past year) and thinks she might be a lesbian but doesn't want to risk the family breakup unless she is sure as that has devastating consequences. I think that she is/was trying to escape a deteriorating relationship and an identity crisis and was able to find a loving, supportive partner who filled all the emotional voids left by my emotional distance and my continued driving her away over many years. I believe our relationship is fixable, but am afraid it might be too late.
> 
> Fundamental problem #2: Wife is still is unsure of which relationship she wants. Without both fully committed to rebuilding the relationship, chance for reconciliation seems small. If my wife is here merely out of obligation to the marriage and family, can a reconciliation happen?
> 
> Where do we go from here? How do we rebuild our relationship? How do we recover from the affair?


Familyman15, this is an AWESOME thread! Welcome to TAM!

Sorry I'm late to the comment-fest, but better late than not at all!

In response to your original post, I would like to offer the following-

You did a great job of identifying the "Fundamental Problems" in the relationship, but you missed a couple.

Did you know that the word "fundament" stands for "buttocks?" Interesting and appropriate, in this case.

Fundamental Problem 0: After your wife decided to rub genitals with another person for several months, the lesson you draw from things is that you "realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship."

See, to draw this conclusion, you suffer from really low self esteem. You think you don't deserve to be treated better than this.

I humbly suggest that a big part of the reason your wife did this (besides that she is a bad person) is that she completely DOES NOT RESPECT YOU. Because YOU don't respect you.

It's your fault that you were a butthead of a husband. As someone else noted, join the club. Spouses are buttheads to each other ALL THE FRICKIN TIME.

Its not your fault that your wife decided to go have sex with someone else.

The fact that you don't understand this simple idea bodes ill for you and your marriage.


Fundamental Problem -1: You love her (the woman who loves you so much that she was letting you pay her bills and having sex with another woman) more than ANYTHING ELSE, and intend to put forth extraordinary effort to be the kind of man that she'll like so much that she won't even want to have sex with other women.

Familyperson, chicks can smell desperation a mile away, and it turns their stomach. God gave you a brain to think with. If the best use you can put it to is to ask yourself, "how can I change so that my wife won't have sex with other women," well, this does not bode well for you or your marriage.


Fundamental Problem -2: Rugsweeping is the technical term for going into shock when you discover your partner is having sex with somebody else. It is followed by fear and desperation, and a strong urge to regress to childhood and "pretend it never, ever happened."

It works great for men of feeble character, men who look hard at reality, and flinch away quickly. Unable to address a problem like this head-on, they let it fester and build up resentment and get all passive aggressive and nasty with their spouse.

They never realize that it would have been better to address it from the get-go, and resolve it, either way. So they lose months and years of good living due to resentment and self loathing.

This is the road you are setting yourself on. One of your "it's MY fault my wife cheated on me" excuses is that you got all emotionally distant and drove her away and looked at her funny and weren't always there to wipe her butt after she used the rest room.

So your plan is to reverse all this distance and get emotionally close and supportive with her.

All the while knowing that she cheated on you.

This will require discipline and sustained effort from you, and you can't even stand up for yourself and say,

"well, dear, sorry you're questioning your sexuality, why don't you go question it without living here and seeing your kids for a month or so?"

This does not bode well for you or your marriage.

Aaaaaaaaaand I was about to hit "Submit Reply," when I realized I hadn't answered your question!

Where do ya'll go from here, how do you save your marriage, how do you recover from the affair?

Well, counseling is a better start than none at all.

You save your marriage by listening carefully to your wife, and comparing what she is saying with what she is DOING. You demand respect and decent treatment from her. Figure out what it will take for you to heal, and communicate to her what she has to do to help you heal. Find out what she wants from you, and then figure out if you can do that consistently or not. You save your marriage by being 100% ready to END your marriage after what your wife did.

In answer to the question you posed in the title of this thread, which is not the same as the questions you posed at the end of your first post,

you file for divorce and full custody of your children. You cut off the money supply. You make your wife move heaven and earth to redeem herself in your mind. If she can't do those things and commit to monogamy RIGHT THEN AND THERE, you let her go and find a better woman. If you are anywhere near a decent man, it won't be that hard.

But you won't do that. You're not that kind of guy.

I hope counseling goes well for you!


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> Personally, OP, I don't think it's a good sign that she is feeling confused. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but it's my honest thought.
> 
> If I were you, I would try to be as non-controlling and understanding as possible. I would also start making a practical plan for when she leaves you.


Honestly, I agree. I'm not sure this is going to play out well and I'll be prepared if she goes the other way. But I think I at least owe it to her and the family to play out a bit longer.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> Many betrayed spouse want to accept blame because this means that they can do something to fix it. Accepting that the affair had nothing to do with you being a bad spouse, is hard because this means that maybe the real problem is that your spouse is just broken, and that you may not be able to fix that.


This hits pretty close to home. That very well may be the case. (In my head I'm probably thinking) If it was my fault, I can fix me, so it's better if it's my fault. But realistically, I was at the very least partially responsible for the decline that left her in a place this would be an option. Clearly choosing to have an affair was 100% her fault.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Youngster said:


> Expose the affair to family and friends. Your at a point where you need some outside support. This isn't about punishing your wife, it's about getting help from your loved ones. If the marriage should eventually fail, at least everyone will know the truth and that you weren't to blame.


I have to some extent. Close friends who either aren't connected to her or would care about both of us either way. My family is tough as if/when we do reconcile they could never forgive that like hopefully I can.


----------



## FamilyMan15

tom67 said:


> :iagree:
> Nothing to lose at this point.


That sounds punitive (not that it's not warranted), but would definitely be counterproductive to reconciling right? What would I gain from that other than punishing her?


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> I don't think she's leveraging anything. I don't think she's plotting, planning or intentionally doing anything devious. I think she's genuinely confused.


I think this is true. She is genuinely confused. She hasn't asked anything of me (so no real plan in plan).


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> I think you sir are still in some shock and denial. Your wife is a selfish cheater. End of story. Any reconciliation attempt must be on your terms. If she is not "willing" well there's your answer.
> 
> I attribute your feelings to the BS fog. As soon as that fog clears, you will be able to see things clearly and objectively.


I'm sure you are right at least to some extent. Dealing with the shock is really really hard. At least some time talking to professionals may let the fog clear before we make any permanent decisions.


----------



## Youngster

The point of exposure is not to be punitive.

It's possible her friends and family will tell her that what she is doing is wrong. It's wrong for her husband, her children and herself. Do you think the opinions of her friends and family would carry so little weight with her?

The way you expose is to say "Friends and family, this is what's going on.......please help me save our marriage for the sake of ourselves and our children."


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> No one is going to blame him for his wife's leaving him for another woman. How could he be to blame for her discovering her sexuality?
> 
> If she goes with the other woman, eventually everyone is going to realize her sexuality. I think his broadcasting it to people is going to make him look desperate, and possibly homophobic.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> He doesn't seem to think she's a manipulator. I think he believes she's sincere, that she's really trying to work through her feelings.


I just don't feel manipulated at all (yes naive). All she's asking for is time and patience. Unless she is trying to stall for sometime else, I don't see what she could gain out of this deal. Frankly split custody of our children is a loss to her.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> 
> Whatever your wife is going thru, you will not be able to "manage" her recovery. Like Happyman stated, your focus needs to be on yourself. Aside from verifying that there isn't any more contact with the OW, there isn't much you can do to solve this. This is all on her.
> 
> Follow the 180 and improve yourself. That is really the only thing you have control over.


I think this is good advice. I'll just focus on me and give her some time.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> Well, I am not an expert, but I would think encouraging her to be as open and honest as possible, without threat of shaming or punishment, would help.
> 
> Have you contacted Faithful Wife yet, as Conan suggested? I would send her a pm and ask her to join this thread. She is a bisexual female in a happy, monogamous marriage to a man. She would surely be a great source of advice.


Just invited her - thanks.


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> This hits pretty close to home. That very well may be the case. (In my head I'm probably thinking) If it was my fault, I can fix me, so it's better if it's my fault. But realistically, I was at the very least partially responsible for the decline that left her in a place this would be an option. Clearly choosing to have an affair was 100% her fault.


 The problem with falsely accepting blame is that it lets the cheater off the hook. They have a reason to blame you for your marriage issues, and they have less reason to work on the marriage since so much of it is now your fault.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> I'm sure she will. But first she's trying to figure out if she is going to go down that path or not.
> 
> I think OP is doing a great job being patient and sensitive, and giving her time to process her feelings. He is certainly welcome to simply start divorce proceedings, but I don't think he wants to do that at this time.
> 
> I'm sure eventually it will be known that she cheated. Thing is, in the case of a partner realizing they are actually homosexual, other people may not be as likely to be judgmental. They might actually be more judgmental towards the OP for talking about it without his wife's permission.


Thanks for your support on this. Part of the reason I posted here in the first place was to get input or alternate opinions and I appreciate everyone input. I think I still feel ok about my wait a bit and give her a chance plan. It seems to be the least risky for a short term sacrifice with more upside if it works out. I've heard a lot of people recover from affairs and are even stronger after (I know a couple personally that did it). I just want to give us a chance to be one of those couples. With kids, that is the ideal situation.

Spreading the word to everyone right now seems to be a no upside decision for me.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Q tip said:


> I call Bull Sh!t. Cheating is cheating. Shed the light of truth on it all.
> 
> So, it's become such a PC world that the truth takes a back seat.
> 
> Expose her to all.
> 
> She broke her vows. Cheating and lying have consequences. You can't pour sugar over all this mess and have a nice breakfast.
> 
> You did not "mean" her into this. You cannot "nice" her back.


I agree that cheating is cheating yes. But it can be recovered from I believe if both partners are committed. At what point she will be committed (if at all) is the real question right now. But if she does, I think we have a real chance at recovery. She's going through hell herself right now between our issues and the loss of a loved one (the break up). Shes had consequences. and if she decides to go with the woman, our whole world turns upside down (with the kids, family, and friends).


----------



## FamilyMan15

lordmayhem said:


> Either she's in or out. Give the ultimatum now. She either goes NC forever or she's out.


I'm fundamentally with you on this and she has agreed, but I'm going to let the counselor tell her Thursday about open access/tracking etc. I think it's a no brainer. With phones it's pretty easy.

But honestly, if she decides to be with her, she'll just be with her. There's no upside to sneaking any longer.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> He can't "control tactic" her back, either, guys.


Right. I can't strong arm her into reconciling. I'd just strong arm her away. and that's not the goal.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> If I recall correctly, the only reason she quit her dream job was because she was laid off. If she wouldn't have been laid off, do you think she would have ultimately came to the same conclusion?


Honesty, probably not. She was so caught up in the difference she was making in the lives of the people she was helping (so not selfishness here really) that I don't believe she realized the toll it was taking on the family (other than my constant *****ing). It wasn't until she had some distance from the job that she saw what she was missing. While she misses the job, she realizes NOW that losing it was the best thing that could have happened. But a lot of damage was done during that time.


----------



## FamilyMan15

betrayed16 said:


> That's ridiculous. If she "realized" she was actually homosexual, she had a duty to tell her husband so that they could decide what to do about the marriage. Having an affair is not an option when you're married.


Agreed. But never the less, here we are. The relationship started as friends and only recently developed into more over the last month or two, so over that time and now is when she was dealing with the "am I gay or not" question. Ultimately, she shouldn't have done it. But she did.


----------



## FamilyMan15

convert said:


> I agree but he can establish boundaries, and often boundaries are confused with being controlling.


Right. My hope is that the counselor (we see in 3 days) will help set those boundries so I'm not the controlling one.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> 
> You must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it.
> 
> I know from experience. I am one of the few on here who have successfully reconciled with a cheater. Every time you try to nice her back she loses a little more respect for you as a man.


Do you have kids? How were they affected by the leave and figure it out ultimatum?


----------



## FamilyMan15

lordmayhem said:


> Same here. I'm also among the few who have successfully R'd.
> 
> Kicking them off the fence, one way or the other, is usually the only hope.
> 
> This particular WW's head is still in the affair. This is why NC is a must, and that NC must be verified.


Do you have kids? How were they affected by the leave and figure it out ultimatum?


----------



## FamilyMan15

harrybrown said:


> Have you told her about her cheating and the pain for her kids over her selfishness?
> 
> www.yahoo.com/parenting/kids-are-resilient-and-7-other-lies-divorcing-107330654983.html


This is pretty good. Do I just show her this?


----------



## Chaparral

FamilyMan15 said:


> I have to some extent. Close friends who either aren't connected to her or would care about both of us either way. My family is tough as if/when we do reconcile they could never forgive that like hopefully I can.


Actually, full on exposure is used to break up the affair. If in fact the affair has stopped,(I think there is a good chance they are just laying low), just tell the people you can lean on for support.

Jld is a wonderful loving wife, unfortunately she has a less than stellar record with infidelity threads from what I've seen.

Be prepared for the worse case scenario. There haven't been many threads like this but I can't remember any where the wife didn't end up with the other woman. I hope someone can refute that.

I think your wife thinks she can end up with the ow AND the kids. In a gentle but firm way explain that you would seek full custody and you have no doubt you will get at least 50/50 custody.

Read the two books linked to below as fast as you can. At this point your out maned by the ow. Fix that.

Try googling the counselor's names for patient reviews. A counselor can be a blessing but is often a curse.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> I agree that cheating is cheating yes. But it can be recovered from I believe if both partners are committed. At what point she will be committed (if at all) is the real question right now. But if she does, I think we have a real chance at recovery. She's going through hell herself right now between our issues and the loss of a loved one (the break up). Shes had consequences. and if she decides to go with the woman, our whole world turns upside down (with the kids, family, and friends).


So your plan at this point is to sit back and let her decide what she wants on her own time? 

See a lawyer and start the divorce. You can always stop it in the end. This serves two purposes: 1) it tells her that YOU have made your decision and refuse to continue with a sham marriage and 2) it officially starts the clock and you can even tell her it's up to you if this ultimately goes through. 

So, what ACTIONS is your wife making to try to make amends to this situation? I've asked you to look at actions in the last few posts I made on this thread. You seem to refuse to look at her actions, but now you are more than eager to hear her words on the issue. So far all I see is she feels guilt for hurting you, but she's grieving the loss of a relationship to her lover. Is she grieving for you? Doesn't sound like it based on your most recent comments. Does that not tell you ANYTHING???????


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> I think this is true. She is genuinely confused. She hasn't asked anything of me (so no real plan in plan).


 Cheaters saying that they are confused, is a common cheater tactic to get their betrayed spouse to be so busy trying to win the cheater back, that the betrayed spouse forgets to hold the cheater to many consequences. For instance, you do not want to expose since that might push the cheater away. You do not want to impose strong verifiable transparency and boundaries since that might upset the cheater. Bottom line, the cheater becomes the prize that you and the affair partner work hard to try to win, and the cheater is in effect rewarded for their cheating. 

Also, each spouse is suppose to make the other their main priority in life, where what is best for the other is suppose to be a primary concern. Although the cheater has that from you, you do not have that from them, as the "confused" cheater decides what is best for them. If tough times were to happen right now, you could very well be alone in the world in dealing with it, while the cheater would not only not be alone, but has options on who to be with. This is an imbalance of marital power that is not healthy for you or your marriage, and not something that you want to rebuild a marriage on.


----------



## FamilyMan15

sidney2718 said:


> You are making a big mistake here. Infidelity takes only one person. A reconciliation takes TWO people.
> 
> Of course she has to pull her weight in a reconciliation. But you have work to do as well. In your first post you listed some of the bad things you've done that hurt the marriage. You have to fix those. And you need to be able to talk to your wife about any other problems she has with you and which you have with her. And those need to be fixed as well.
> 
> Do not listen to the folks who claim that all the work in a reconciliation is on her. I guarantee that will not work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is true. You need to be sensitive to her conditions and not to expect miracles. Your case is not totally like the usual sort of infidelity, woman-woman relationships are, I am told (being male) are different than man-woman relationships. They often depend more on emotional satisfaction and less on physical satisfaction, although that is a strong element as well.
> 
> Last, let me say that I think that you are right. Your wife still cares for you and for your family. That's why you have to try to fix what you've done to weaken the marriage so as to make it more inviting to come back.


Thanks for your input. Any other advice? Seems like we are stuck on the "am I a lesbian or not" question before anything else can proceed.


----------



## FamilyMan15

sidney2718 said:


> We have to help those affected by infidelity by giving advice to help the OP get what the OP wants, not what we want.


I'm open to either opposing viewpoints or suggestion towards my reconciling goal, but more the later than the former. I'm hoping to get some practical suggestions to making this work. The split very well may happen on it own regardless of what I do.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

FamilyMan15 said:


> Do you have kids? How were they affected by the leave and figure it out ultimatum?


This implies you or your wife are going to involve the kids. They do not need to be involved in the early stages of your discussions.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm open to either opposing viewpoints or suggestion towards my reconciling goal, but more the later than the former. I'm hoping to get some practical suggestions to making this work. *The split very well may happen on it own regardless of what I do.*


What ACTIONS is she taking??? Hell, you're talking about you taking actions to fix something that she did because...she spiraled into "depression" because she had to give up a dream job that required the rest of her family to make significant sacrifices to share a wife and mother with strangers because this woman LOVED what she did for a living.... Committed family woman right there folks... 

I don't think I'm being very helpful. I think I'll read to see how things unfold, but I'm done posting in this thread.


----------



## Chaparral

Look in the reconciliation thread. For whatever reason, you are getting advice on how to deal with a person that's still cheating. At this point you have to assume she isn't cheating. However, you have to do some monitoring and it not by going through the counselor. Put a var in her car and in the house. Velcro one under her front seat. Keep an eye on her phone, text, email records. Privacy is for the bathroom, there are no secrets in marriage. She lied to you for months. There is no reason in the world to start trusting her yet. That has to be earned. She is a practiced cheater. She was seduced by a lesbian that has learned to seduce straight women.

You are in the battle of your life, weakness is failure.

Honestly, if she had been banging her best male friend would you be trying to reconcile?


----------



## jld

Chaparral said:


> Jld is a wonderful loving wife, unfortunately she has a less than stellar record with infidelity threads from what I've seen.


I do not push control techniques like many here, OP. That is what he means by less than stellar, I believe.

I push openness and honesty and seeking to understand and insisting on a Win/Win or No Deal solution. 

I do think your wife's wholehearted recommitting to you is doubtful. If she had come back to you after the first encounter with the OW, or even better, if she had come to you as soon as she thought she might have feelings for the OW, I would be more hopeful. My concern is that she feels more comfortable as a lesbian, and I think that would be hard for her to turn away from, long term.

But I do not really know. I only know what I have seen or heard from my sister, who is a lesbian. However, there are women here who have had relationships with people of both sexes. I hope they will speak up and give you a more informed opinion.


----------



## Chaparral

There was a recent study about how devastating it is to be raised by same sex couples. One was released soon after about how good it was.........naturally.


----------



## happyman64

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks for your input. Any other advice? Seems like we are stuck on the "am I a lesbian or not" question before anything else can proceed.


Do not get stuck on the "am I a ***** or not?" aspect.

That is for your wife to figure out.

You need to focus on you and the kids. You need to be independent. Not rely on her. SHow her that no matter what happens you will be just fine.

Just fine with her or just fine without her.

She acted selfishly. That is what people do in Affairs. They lie. They cheat. They act out in a selfish manner.

What are the ages of your WW and the OW? Do they have similar backgrounds? Are they close in age?

Does the OW have any children? Was the OW ever in a LTR with a man?

The answers are important if you know them.

Again, I like your style and decisions so far.

Now take back control of your life. She needs to see a strong, independent, confident man that she married. 

It will increase her doubts about moving on. At the same time it will make you feel better, more in control and her less desirable while she sits on the fence.

Again this is all new for you and her.

You have time. Expect relapses. But no begging or pleading from you.

If she relapses then we will guide you on the proper consequences.

HM


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> The split very well may happen on it own regardless of what I do.


I think this is the reality, OP.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> I do not control techniques like many here, OP.
> 
> I push openness and honesty and seeking to understand and insisting on a Win/Win or No Deal solution.


Yes, you push a different type of "control technique." We all see things differently.


----------



## lordmayhem

FamilyMan15 said:


> Do you have kids? How were they affected by the leave and figure it out ultimatum?


2 boys, they are old enough. They understood.


----------



## Chaparral

jld said:


> I do not push control techniques like many here, OP. That is what he means by less than stellar, I believe.
> 
> I push openness and honesty and seeking to understand and insisting on a Win/Win or No Deal solution.
> 
> I do think your wife's wholehearted recommitting to you is doubtful. If she had come back to you after the first encounter with the OW, or even better, if she had come to you as soon as she thought she might have feelings for the OW, I would be more hopeful. My concern is that she feels more comfortable as a lesbian, and I think that would be hard for her to turn away from, long term.
> 
> But I do not really know. I only know what I have seen or heard from my sister, who is a lesbian. However, there are women here who have had relationships with people of both sexes. I hope they will speak up and give you a more informed opinion.


There is a misconception here. The posters are not talking about controlling another person. She is a grown woman. No one is going to control her. However, boundaries have to be set and enforced for ones own self respect and the respect of his/her spouse.

This is my boundary, if you can't live with it, you need to leave and we will divorce. You leave your phone unlocked, delete nothing and I do the same. You don't go out with friends drinking and partying and neither do I. Etc. Etc. If you can't live with boundaries and honor your vows you can go be with whoever you choose and I will be fine. We will divorce, split everything down the middle and share custody of the kids but I will not share you with another man/woman, period.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> So your plan at this point is to sit back and let her decide what she wants on her own time?
> 
> See a lawyer and start the divorce. You can always stop it in the end. This serves two purposes: 1) it tells her that YOU have made your decision and refuse to continue with a sham marriage and 2) it officially starts the clock and you can even tell her it's up to you if this ultimately goes through.
> 
> So, what ACTIONS is your wife making to try to make amends to this situation? I've asked you to look at actions in the last few posts I made on this thread. You seem to refuse to look at her actions, but now you are more than eager to hear her words on the issue. So far all I see is she feels guilt for hurting you, but she's grieving the loss of a relationship to her lover. Is she grieving for you? Doesn't sound like it based on your most recent comments. Does that not tell you ANYTHING???????


As far as actions on her part:
1. Broke it off with the other woman. Confirmed by inside close friend source and she feels like she needs to account for all of her time to me (understandably).
2. She is still here trying to work it through with me vs. being with her and trying to work it through. Both are options (although realistically, the kids did come into play on staying here but she could have ask for shared access).

I think breaking it off is worth something. And she has more than guilt for hurting me, I think she considers herself a horrible person for what she's put me through.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> Cheaters saying that they are confused, is a common cheater tactic to get their betrayed spouse to be so busy trying to win the cheater back, that the betrayed spouse forgets to hold the cheater to many consequences. For instance, you do not want to expose since that might push the cheater away. You do not want to impose strong verifiable transparency and boundaries since that might upset the cheater. Bottom line, the cheater becomes the prize that you and the affair partner work hard to try to win, and the cheater is in effect rewarded for their cheating.
> 
> Also, each spouse is suppose to make the other their main priority in life, where what is best for the other is suppose to be a primary concern. Although the cheater has that from you, you do not have that from them, as the "confused" cheater decides what is best for them. If tough times were to happen right now, you could very well be alone in the world in dealing with it, while the cheater would not only not be alone, but has options on who to be with. This is an imbalance of marital power that is not healthy for you or your marriage, and not something that you want to rebuild a marriage on.


Agreed. This confusion can't last long. Honestly, she wants to figure it out on move on either way as well. I don't think she is playing a game here.


----------



## FamilyMan15

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This implies you or your wife are going to involve the kids. They do not need to be involved in the early stages of your discussions.


But if I kick her out (or threaten to and she says ok) to "figure it out" then wouldn't the kids be involved at that point? She's living someone else. I can't deny access - it wouldn't be good for them or my chances on reconciliation.

How did you reconcile your marriage?


----------



## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks for your support on this. Part of the reason I posted here in the first place was to get input or alternate opinions and I appreciate everyone input. I think I still feel ok about my wait a bit and give her a chance plan. It seems to be the least risky for a short term sacrifice with more upside if it works out. I've heard a lot of people recover from affairs and are even stronger after (I know a couple personally that did it). I just want to give us a chance to be one of those couples. With kids, that is the ideal situation.
> 
> Spreading the word to everyone right now seems to be a no upside decision for me.


I agree that exposure right now is probably not warranted but only if the affair is absolutely over and you can verify NC. If they are still in contact even minimally then you must expose in order to break the fantasy aspect of the affair. Anything less and your marriage has no chance of survival.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What ACTIONS is she taking??? Hell, you're talking about you taking actions to fix something that she did because...she spiraled into "depression" because she had to give up a dream job that required the rest of her family to make significant sacrifices to share a wife and mother with strangers because this woman LOVED what she did for a living.... Committed family woman right there folks...
> 
> I don't think I'm being very helpful. I think I'll read to see how things unfold, but I'm done posting in this thread.


I posted another post about her actions, but make no mistake, if we move towards reconciling, there will have to be actions by both. I'm focusing on fixes I can make since that's all I can control.


----------



## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> Right. My hope is that the counselor (we see in 3 days) will help set those boundries so I'm not the controlling one.


I don't want to dash your hopes but there are a lot of "misguided" counselors out there. My advice to you is to lay it out on the line. Tell the counselor your are willing to work with your wife but you will not stay in limbo. Tell the counselor that you demand total access and total transparency so that trust can be rebuilt. These are non negotiable and if not agreed to you are ready and willing to walk away. You can be nice without being a doormat.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> My concern is that she feels more comfortable as a lesbian, and I think that would be hard for her to turn away from, long term.


That really is the core issue right now that needs to be solved before we move forward. It's the one that she freely admits she is wrestling with. I think she is mixing the emotions in with in the sexuality. Remove the emotions and I don't think she would pick a girl over a guy - she'd pick the guy I think. This just seems to be very situational. I've never seen any indication otherwise and when asked, she said she hasn't always felt this way. Does that make her not gay? I don't know.


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## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Do not get stuck on the "am I a ***** or not?" aspect.
> 
> That is for your wife to figure out.
> 
> You need to focus on you and the kids. You need to be independent. Not rely on her. SHow her that no matter what happens you will be just fine.
> 
> ...
> 
> What are the ages of your WW and the OW? Do they have similar backgrounds? Are they close in age?
> 
> Does the OW have any children? Was the OW ever in a LTR with a man?
> ..
> Now take back control of your life. She needs to see a strong, independent, confident man that she married.
> HM


I like this advice. At least it gives me something to focus on. Thanks. I need to focus on that a while.

As far as the ages - my wife and I are early 40s and the OW is early 30s I think (give or take a couple years). I think her youth was part of the attraction - mid life crisis style. The OW does not have kids, but the OW expressed the desire to raise my 2 kids plus one of their own.


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> I don't want to dash your hopes but there are a lot of "misguided" counselors out there. My advice to you is to lay it out on the line. Tell the counselor your are willing to work with your wife but you will not stay in limbo. Tell the counselor that you demand total access and total transparency so that trust can be rebuilt. These are non negotiable and if not agreed to you are ready and willing to walk away. You can be nice without being a doormat.


I think this is the line I will take. Thanks.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By FamilyMan15
> Seems like we are stuck on the "am I a lesbian or not" question before anything else can proceed.



I am not any expert on homosexuality but common sense tells me that a person that has not shown any homosexual tendencies in her teens and 20s, had a good sex life with her husband, and does not get aroused looking at naked woman is probably NOT a lesbian. Maybe a bi-sexual but not a lesbian. Do you really have to have a PhD to figure that out?

Assuming that your wife is not a lesbian, then it seems that she was in need emotionally because of the things that you described in your posts and got great comport and strong emotional support from the OW.

That tells me that what is controlling her are her emotions. This talk about love being all about emotions is such an old, tired, and dangerous story. Love is more than emotions and includes commitment, sacrifice, endurance, and does not seek selfishness, etc. to name just a few. I know that some people do not like to talk about those other real elements of love and want to consentrate on the feel good, warm, and fuzzy emotions. Those emotions are very essential for a strong connection but if it is lopsided and with very little of the other foundations of love then you have a HUGE train wreck. *A relationship is not going to last for years or decades based on emotions alone.*

Bottom line for me is this:

Your wife has allowed herself to get all caught up in strong emotions that added in sex; a very powerful combination for the emotion lovers. *Furthermore, her emotions and sex are the perverted kind that includes betrayal of the family and children. Now she needs to embrace some of the other foundations of love such as commitment, sacrifice, endurance, and selflessness.*

It has to be emotions because if you use your logical mind it is easy to see that she is breaking one of the most important vows in marriage, violating her integrity, and betraying her husband and children.* Knowing that you will be harming the children tells you that, the MAYBE lesbian/bisexual and emotional comforting route, is a perverted trap.*

FamilyMan, Be as loving, strong, and supporting as you can for your wife without being compromising and BUILD YOURSELF UP EVER WHICH WAY THAT YOU CAN. That is your priorities because you have been weakened. *You need to get stronger in body, mind, and spirit so that you can make the best of this situation no matter which way it goes.* I hope that your wife will see the reality of what she is facing; not only the loss of her integrity, but losing her family and especially the harming her children. If she does not see the reality now she will see it in the future but the damage may be very bad and some maybe irreversible. Pain and consequences usually bring the so called fog people back to reality.


----------



## FamilyMan15

So funny/horribly painful story. Today my wife and I went and had lunch and played tennis just to try and get some quality time in. She actually took off work a half day surprising me to do it (so some effort on her part without request - a good sign right?).

So when you play tennis, a typically way to decide who serves first is you spin the racquet handle in your hand. Typically there is a letter on the end of the handle and this action spins the letter around. The spinner stops and the other person guesses which direction the letter faces. Wilson racquets for a W on the handle so when spun, it's either an M or a W (follow). If the person guessing gets it right, they serve first. Well Prince racquets have a P or a D.

So I spin the racquet and yell -"What do you want P or D?" I notice the P or D initials as soon as the words left my mouth (if you can't figure it out they are the initials for d*ck and (p*ssy) So not thinking she just yells P before she grasps the significance of her choice. I visibly deflate and she utters an uncomfortable chuckle "well I didn't mean.." MY response is "well, thats really the story of my life right now - P or D! Leave out the emotion and that's what it comes down to. What do you want, 20 more years of P or 20 of D?" It was a joke at the time and we actually kinda laughed about it.

But the significance of the question stuck with me and I actually brought it up later. I think she was taken aback by the thought somewhat. In general, what is she attracted to - male or females? Can she be with woman physically the rest of her life? I think she is factoring new lala land emotion into this far too much and I really believe that without the emotion she's going to choice the D. Given a choice of Brad Pitt or Angelina, she's going with Brad every time. At least in my experience. So while this escape was maybe what she thought she needed at the time, long term, I really don't think P is what she wants. 

I think the answer to the P or D question is the pivotal issue here. Once she decides what she really feels in her heart, it really will eliminate the other option. It's not really which is the better option (unless she is truly bisexual), it's really which set of gear does she wants for the next 20 years. Then the rest is just reconciling or divorce. I'm can do either given those circumstances.

We'll see - She's got an individual counselor appt as well to discuss the sexuality issue privately although it will come up during our couples session.


----------



## RoseAglow

FamilyMan, I am sorry for your situation. 

In addition to the pain of having a cheating spouse, you also are in a tough place with the possibility that your wife is further on the lesbian side of the sexual spectrum.

Your wife is in love with another woman. That hurts just as much as if she were in love with another man. 

Usually when one tries to get past an affair, step one is to break up the affair via exposure and step two is to demonstrate that the BS is the excellent, attractive choice. Usually this involves the BS getting emotions under control, for guys it is becoming "calm, cool, collected." 

The problem with that route here is, in a heterosexual affair (or homosexual affair where the AP is the same sex), the BS, very generally speaking, is the better choice. The BS is usually the parent of the children and that is a first big consideration. There is also history and all the things that drew the WS to the BS in the first place. So you can try to knock the WS off the fence and hope for some success. The comparison is with the father of your children or another guy.

Your in a situation that is different. Yes your wife cheated- that part of the story doesn't change. 

What is different is that you are not being compared against the standard AP. It's not a question of, "Who is the better man for me?" Your wife is wondering whether or not in general she should be with a woman. She doesn't need you to do any "Male vs Male mate attraction game"- she is doing a Man vs Woman comparison. She fell in love with another woman and now is wrestling with whether that is where her future lies, whether or not that is where she should really be.

If you try to knock her off the fence, you simply push her away from the Man side of the equation and over to the Woman side, IMO.

I agree with the recommendation to tell the people closest to you to get some support. If your wife leaves you, they will find out that she is homosexual anyway. Talk with the people who care most for your wife and ask them to speak with her. They can be an ear to her and some support as well, possibly.

I agree strongly with jld that you should be a support to her to the best of your ability. It is not fair to ask this of you- in Infidelity speak you are probably on the floor bleeding from the trauma she has inflicted on you by cheating. 

At the same time, heterosexual women just don't fall in love with other women for the hell of it, just like heterosexual men don't just fall for other men. If she fell for another woman she is clearly, truly and authentically, on the bi/lesbian side. 

Since she is in the bi-sexual area, your ability to be present for her, to be trust-worthy for her, might help her come to the conclusion that the best option is to re-commit to the marriage. Generally speaking, we women highly value emotional support; we greatly value being heard, feeling safe with our emotions. I suspect that your wife had a lot of excellent, strong, emotionally-safe conversation and support from her AP. It will be especially important at this time to show your wife that you, too, can be a safe place for her. 


I hope FW posts on your thread. I am a heterosexual woman and know only a few (<10) lesbians (pretty much all of whom had heterosexual relationships at one point.) 

Of the few lesbians I know, two left a heterosexual marriage for another woman. My DH's cousin was married and left her H for a woman several years ago now. The AP worked with the cousin. The cousin and her AP/GFare still together, they have the kids on a 60/40 split. These are words that are not generally appreciated on TAM but in this case, it is a win-win for everyone. The ex-H has no ill will and in fact he goes on vacation annually with his ex, AP/GF, and the kids. They are not in a love triangle (this question comes up a lot) but since the wife is a lesbian, the ex-H doesn't take the break-up personally and is comfortable hanging out. 

My SIL's sister-in-law also left her husband for another woman about 2-3 years ago. She and hasn't looked back. They had no kids.

Many people do look at this kind of cheating differently. It is not viewed as much as a character flaw; it is viewed more as the person has now stepped into their true and authentic life. For my DH's family, and my SIL's in-laws, the general feeling is "well, she is a lesbian. She should be with another woman. Duh."

Whatever happens, I wish you peace.


----------



## Jung_admirer

RoseAglow said:


> Many people do look at this kind of cheating differently. It is not viewed as much as a character flaw; *it is viewed more as the person has now stepped into their true and authentic life.* For my DH's family, and my SIL's in-laws, the general feeling is "well, she is a lesbian. She should be with another woman. Duh."


So you believe the WW could not have "stepped into their true and authentic life" without betraying her current partner? That his betrayal was a necessary sacrifice for her growth. Or perhaps you believe that the 'ends justifies the mean's and the fact that his love lies bleeding is inconsequential in her quest of self discovery. How is this not a character issue, please explain?


----------



## Locke.Stratos

So your wife has a four month affair, that's four months of lies, deception and sexual activity and your concern is her sexual orientation.



happyman64 said:


> Your wife's sexual orientation is selfishness. not gay, les or bi.
> 
> But selfish.


:iagree:


----------



## seasalt

I agree that your wife is confused but you shouldn't be. A man wants to be with a woman who wants him. I call bullspit on her uncertainty after twenty years of a heterosexual lifestyle after two months of being with a woman.

A Mayfly lives for only a day and its imperatives are to get nourishment first but only so that it has the wherewithal to procreate before its life ends. We humans are certainly more complex but it is our culture, if you can call it that, which makes our lives more difficult than they need to be. She shouldn't have to go to a therapist who will give her more confusion and perhaps point her in a certain direction just to make her able to handle her guilt.

As far as being controlling, you can only control yourself so let her know that she needs to get off the fence soon because you deserve a loving committed wife. Men want women who want men and a husband should want a wife that wants only him.

Just sayin',

Seasalt


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> FamilyMan, I am sorry for your situation.
> What is different is that you are not being compared against the standard AP. It's not a question of, "Who is the better man for me?" Your wife is wondering whether or not in general she should be with a woman. She doesn't need you to do any "Male vs Male mate attraction game"- she is doing a Man vs Woman comparison. She fell in love with another woman and now is wrestling with whether that is where her future lies, whether or not that is where she should really be.
> 
> If you try to knock her off the fence, you simply push her away from the Man side of the equation and over to the Woman side, IMO.
> 
> ...
> 
> At the same time, heterosexual women just don't fall in love with other women for the hell of it, just like heterosexual men don't just fall for other men. If she fell for another woman she is clearly, truly and authentically, on the bi/lesbian side.
> 
> Since she is in the bi-sexual area, your ability to be present for her, to be trust-worthy for her, might help her come to the conclusion that the best option is to re-commit to the marriage. Generally speaking, we women highly value emotional support; we greatly value being heard, feeling safe with our emotions. I suspect that your wife had a lot of excellent, strong, emotionally-safe conversation and support from her AP. It will be especially important at this time to show your wife that you, too, can be a safe place for her.
> 
> ..
> 
> Many people do look at this kind of cheating differently. It is not viewed as much as a character flaw; it is viewed more as the person has now stepped into their true and authentic life. For my DH's family, and my SIL's in-laws, the general feeling is "well, she is a lesbian. She should be with another woman. Duh."
> 
> Whatever happens, I wish you peace.


Thanks for your input. A lot of what you wrote holds true here. While her decision to have the affair was horrible and obviously wrong (and she agrees), I have to get past that for now if I want to reconcile (which I do). I think she is struggling with the man-vs-woman decision now and I have to support helping her figure it out. Negative actions are just going to tip her away I think at this point. Once she figures it out, things do change somewhat, but right now, it's pretty delicate. If she really is a lesbian, she should be in that lifestyle. 

The problem is that, even though I may be in denial, I just don't think she is a lesbian for many factors (our past experience being the main part). Can a woman in a really bad place emotionally fall for another woman (at least initially) purely out of emotional attachment and then while the physical part feels "different" because it comes with that person that has shown so much caring for you, you think it's ok. That thinking it's ok leads to you questioning your sexuality. "If I'm ok with sex with a girl, I must be a lesbian." Could that be the case here?

I'm not saying she isn't a bisexual, but I've just never ever seen any indication of her desire for girls (and we've been together almost 20 years). I think if you take the emotion aside, I really don't believe she is attracted to females in general - I believe she is attracted to this particular woman because of a really strong emotional bond that formed in a time of need and that's made the physical part confusing to her "well I love this person and while this feels a little weird it's just because it's new" Attraction is a pretty complex thing when you mix in emotions.

Ultimately if she's had a physical relationship with a girl, does that make her bi or lesbian? or can women do through phases when there is emotional attachment? I really don't know. I guess in the end the label doesn't really matter. I'm just trying to help her figure out which lifestyle is the right one long term. If she's just really attracted emotionally, the physical part is going to be a problem down the line I think.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Jung_admirer said:


> So you believe the WW could not have "stepped into their true and authentic life" without betraying her current partner? That his betrayal was a necessary sacrifice for her growth. Or perhaps you believe that the 'ends justifies the mean's and the fact that his love lies bleeding is inconsequential in her quest of self discovery. How is this not a character issue, please explain?


Of course she should have, and she realizes that she should have, but talking about mistakes made isn't constructive at this point. I'm looking towards solutions for the future.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Locke.Stratos said:


> So your wife has a four month affair, that's four months of lies, deception and sexual activity and your concern is her sexual orientation.
> 
> 
> :iagree:


Not at all. Orientation is just the first hurdle. Once/if she decides she's going to stay with our family, we have to tackle all that stuff as well - lies, deception, etc.


----------



## wmn1

Familyman15, 

How is talking about mistakes not constructive ??? Explain ...


----------



## Jung_admirer

FamilyMan15 said:


> Of course she should have, and she realizes that she should have, but talking about mistakes made isn't constructive at this point. I'm looking towards solutions for the future.


Take a look: 
The humiliating dance of pick me

Post your thoughts about dancing...


----------



## Hicks

You're making a very serious mistake. You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.

You are allowing your wife to control the agenda and it will play out to her advantage. She will walk away with her divorce from you and she does not have to face herself as a bad person.

You should not "cede" this territory to her. The territory is you buying into her getting to decide if she is a lesbian or not. You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is " You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did". Repeat this in some way shape or form every time the discussion comes up. Never agree to let her think about what she is. She is a wife and a mother. She made her decision long ago. In your world people accept the decisions they make.

Now you may wonder why this is important. It is important because no man should ever be married to a woman who thinks she may be a lesbian. And no woman will ever be attracted to a man who will stay married to her while she gets to ponder whether she is a lesbian. No woman will ever be attracted to a man who KNOWS she is not a lesbian but he is tricked into allowing her to contemplate her sexuality.

Your marriage suffered a serious blow. It is improbable that it will recover. Not impossible but not highly probable. What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without your blessings.

And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.

Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
-You know your wife is not a lesbian because you know your wife.
- You don't stay married to women who don't want to be married to you.
- You don't stay married to women who are not sure if they want to be married to you..
- Divorce is a long process and not a one time event. I can file for divorce while giving my wife the choice to return into a marriage that is acceptable to me.
- I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
- Cheaters are horrible mothers and I will do everything in my power to protect my childen from destructive influences
- I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.


----------



## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> Shes had consequences. and if she decides to go with the woman, our whole world turns upside down (with the kids, family, and friends).


Your whole world is already turned upside down. You are trying to hang on to what you used to have. That is gone.


----------



## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> Do you have kids? How were they affected by the leave and figure it out ultimatum?


When I went thru this, my children were 6 and 3 years old. Upon discovering my wife's infidelity, I was furious and did not allow her to return home. She stayed in a hotel for a week and then got an apartment. My philosophy was that the AP could have her. Thank you TAM. I saw a Lawyer the very next day. She was gone seven months. Four at the apartment and three in drug rehab. I believe my wife saw the light in rehab and came out of the fog. 

My children were hurt by all of this. They would cry sometimes at bedtime. I developed a visitation schedule similar to what is in a divorce and stuck to it. I continued to live my life and control that. I would be divorced today if everything wouldn't have fell into place as it did. I am glad that I am not. 

People here want you to expose because they believe the affair is still ongoing and from what you have written I think this may be true. Exposing will assist in ending it. Do not lie to your kids. They will resent you for it, just be age appropriate with the info. 

If the affair is ongoing or on hold, any counseling she gets is wasted money. I will say again, YOU CANNOT NICE HER BACK.

Here are two books that will help you
1.Married Mans Sex Life Primer by Athol KAy
2.No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover

You do not have to divorce her this instant but you absolutely must stop putting up with her BULL$hit!


----------



## jld

Rose--*the ex-H doesn't take the break-up personally and is comfortable hanging out.*

I think this is the best outcome. Nothing taken personally, the wife sincerely sorry for the deceit of the affair, the husband understanding her confusion and not taking her acceptance of her sexuality as some sort of statement about him.

I agree with Rose that heterosexual women do not have affairs with other women. I do think you are in denial about that, OP. If your wife had a physical relationship with that other gal, she is bisexual. 

Heterosexual women turn to other women for emotional support all the time. We talk to each other, listen to each other, give a hug when someone is crying. We don't French kiss and touch each other's genitals. 

Maybe the best course at this point is to relax and give your relationship some time. At least you are not bitter; that is a real trap in this sort of situation. You seem to be doing very well, actually. You seem intelligent and mature, and I am sure your wife appreciates that.

So, I would say settle down, let the counselor help you and your wife, continue being open and honest with her, and encourage her to do the same. Commit to a fair split of assets if she eventually decides to follow the other side of her sexuality. Commit to the most reasonably good plan for the kids, if it comes to that.

It could be worse. She could have a terminal illness. You would all lose her. Even if she decides to go with the other woman, you could still be friends, and your kids would still have their mom. There is that to be grateful for.


----------



## ButtPunch

Hicks said:


> You're making a very serious mistake. You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.
> 
> You are allowing your wife to control the agenda and it will play out to her advantage. She will walk away with her divorce from you and she does not have to face herself as a bad person.
> 
> You should not "cede" this territory to her. The territory is you buying into her getting to decide if she is a lesbian or not. You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is " You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did". Repeat this in some way shape or form every time the discussion comes up. Never agree to let her think about what she is. She is a wife and a mother. She made her decision long ago. In your world people accept the decisions they make.
> 
> Now you may wonder why this is important. It is important because no man should ever be married to a woman who thinks she may be a lesbian. And no woman will ever be attracted to a man who will stay married to her while she gets to ponder whether she is a lesbian. No woman will ever be attracted to a man who KNOWS she is not a lesbian but he is tricked into allowing her to contemplate her sexuality.
> 
> Your marriage suffered a serious blow. It is improbable that it will recover. Not impossible but not highly probable. What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without your blessings.
> 
> And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.
> 
> Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
> -You know your wife is not a lesbian because you know your wife.
> - You don't stay married to women who don't want to be married to you.
> - You don't stay married to women who are not sure if they want to be married to you..
> - Divorce is a long process and not a one time event. I can file for divorce while giving my wife the choice to return into a marriage that is acceptable to me.
> - I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
> - Cheaters are horrible mothers and I will do everything in my power to protect my childen from destructive influences
> - I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.


WOW! I cannot like this enough. I am engineer by trade so I cannot express myself as eloquently as others. 

This is absolutely what I'm trying to tell you. 

One more book Codependent No More should help you.

You are operating on your fears and this needs to stop.


----------



## ButtPunch

familyman15 said:


> so i spin the racquet and yell -"what do you want p or d?" i notice the p or d initials as soon as the words left my mouth (if you can't figure it out they are the initials for d*ck and (p*ssy) so not thinking she just yells p before she grasps the significance of her choice. I visibly deflate and she utters an uncomfortable chuckle "well i didn't mean.." my response is "well, thats really the story of my life right now - p or d! Leave out the emotion and that's what it comes down to. What do you want, 20 more years of p or 20 of d?" it was a joke at the time and we actually kinda laughed about it.
> 
> .




puke


----------



## LongWalk

Follow Punch's advice.

As long as you are available she can go on guessing about the life behind doors unopened. Let her know you are not behind one of the doors at all and she may quit playing around.


----------



## jld

LongWalk said:


> Follow Punch's advice.
> 
> As long as you are available she can go on guessing about the life behind doors unopened. Let her know you are not behind one of the doors at all and she may quit playing around.


How is she playing around?


----------



## Chaparral

It's important to know how your sex life was before, during and after the affair stopped? Normally it will change. Hysterical bonding during reconciliation is normal.


----------



## wmn1

Hicks said:


> You're making a very serious mistake. You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.
> 
> You are allowing your wife to control the agenda and it will play out to her advantage. She will walk away with her divorce from you and she does not have to face herself as a bad person.
> 
> You should not "cede" this territory to her. The territory is you buying into her getting to decide if she is a lesbian or not. You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is " You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did". Repeat this in some way shape or form every time the discussion comes up. Never agree to let her think about what she is. She is a wife and a mother. She made her decision long ago. In your world people accept the decisions they make.
> 
> Now you may wonder why this is important. It is important because no man should ever be married to a woman who thinks she may be a lesbian. And no woman will ever be attracted to a man who will stay married to her while she gets to ponder whether she is a lesbian. No woman will ever be attracted to a man who KNOWS she is not a lesbian but he is tricked into allowing her to contemplate her sexuality.
> 
> Your marriage suffered a serious blow. It is improbable that it will recover. Not impossible but not highly probable. What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without your blessings.
> 
> And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.
> 
> Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
> -You know your wife is not a lesbian because you know your wife.
> - You don't stay married to women who don't want to be married to you.
> - You don't stay married to women who are not sure if they want to be married to you..
> - Divorce is a long process and not a one time event. I can file for divorce while giving my wife the choice to return into a marriage that is acceptable to me.
> - I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
> - Cheaters are horrible mothers and I will do everything in my power to protect my childen from destructive influences
> - I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.



:iagree:

This !!!


----------



## wmn1

Chaparral said:


> Actually, full on exposure is used to break up the affair. If in fact the affair has stopped,(I think there is a good chance they are just laying low), just tell the people you can lean on for support.
> 
> Jld is a wonderful loving wife, unfortunately she has a less than stellar record with infidelity threads from what I've seen.
> 
> Be prepared for the worse case scenario. There haven't been many threads like this but I can't remember any where the wife didn't end up with the other woman. I hope someone can refute that.
> 
> I think your wife thinks she can end up with the ow AND the kids. In a gentle but firm way explain that you would seek full custody and you have no doubt you will get at least 50/50 custody.
> 
> Read the two books linked to below as fast as you can. At this point your out maned by the ow. Fix that.
> 
> Try googling the counselor's names for patient reviews. A counselor can be a blessing but is often a curse.


agreed 100%


----------



## wmn1

Jung_admirer said:


> Take a look:
> The humiliating dance of pick me
> 
> Post your thoughts about dancing...


I have read some good vantage points over on chumplady. This is another one. She nails it !!


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> Of course she should have, and she realizes that she should have, but talking about mistakes made isn't constructive at this point. I'm looking towards solutions for the future.


 You are now in full rug sweep mode. What you just said is exactly what most cheaters try to get their betrayed spouse to say. It is right out of the cheaters script. First she has you calling it a mistake, when in fact it was a decision. Second, you cannot really plan your future if you only look forward without addressing her decision to cheat. “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”- Sir Winston Churchill


----------



## happyman64

FamilyMan15 said:


> I like this advice. At least it gives me something to focus on. Thanks. I need to focus on that a while.
> 
> As far as the ages - my wife and I are early 40s and the OW is early 30s I think (give or take a couple years). I think her youth was part of the attraction - mid life crisis style. The OW does not have kids, but the OW expressed the desire to raise my 2 kids plus one of their own.


Oh yeah! They are both in La La land. There is forbidden fruit in this relationship.

Mid Life crisis mixed in with a woman in her early 40's having an identity crisis.

Throw in 2 kids from a straight couple and the kids will be confused for a while. Add a third kid from the gay couple and long term mess just begins.

My advice stays the same.

Focus on you. Be strong. Be confident.

And if the OW makes contact or interferes you get involved and tell her to backoff.

The decision to stay or go may be your wifes.

The decision to R your marriage is truly yours.

Your wifes sexual identity is her issue to deal with. I really do not think that is the main issue here.

And her decision making process is a mess right now. She has made some bad decisions recently so encourage her to think this out.

Her relationship with the OW is doomed. They just dont know it.

Keep the focus on you.

HM


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> Rose--*the ex-H doesn't take the break-up personally and is comfortable hanging out.*
> 
> I think this is the best outcome. Nothing taken personally, the wife sincerely sorry for the deceit of the affair, the husband understanding her confusion and not taking her acceptance of her sexuality as some sort of statement about him.
> 
> I agree with Rose that heterosexual women do not have affairs with other women. I do think you are in denial about that, OP. If your wife had a physical relationship with that other gal, she is bisexual.
> 
> Heterosexual women turn to other women for emotional support all the time. We talk to each other, listen to each other, give a hug when someone is crying. We don't French kiss and touch each other's genitals.
> 
> Maybe the best course at this point is to relax and give your relationship some time. At least you are not bitter; that is a real trap in this sort of situation. You seem to be doing very well, actually. You seem intelligent and mature, and I am sure your wife appreciates that.
> 
> So, I would say settle down, let the counselor help you and your wife, continue being open and honest with her, and encourage her to do the same. Commit to a fair split of assets if she eventually decides to follow the other side of her sexuality. Commit to the most reasonably good plan for the kids, if it comes to that.
> 
> It could be worse. She could have a terminal illness. You would all lose her. Even if she decides to go with the other woman, you could still be friends, and your kids would still have their mom. There is that to be grateful for.


It sounds like he is willing to deal with this whereas many would not. I don't see where it's fair that he has to 

1) endure an affair
2) have his family in limbo
3) Endure a period of confusion while he has to be 'patient' as she figures out if she still wants to cheat or not and
4) Not get answers as his life becomes a smoldering wreck.

it sounds like he agrees and believes you on everything Jld but it is him who will have to pay the piper for the time for her to 'figure her way out'. In the end, this situation never should have occurred and the BS shouldn't be expected to sit around while the WW puts her vs him or man vs woman on some arbitrary weight scale


----------



## wmn1

TRy said:


> You are now in full rug sweep mode. What you just said is exactly what most cheaters try to get their betrayed spouse to say. It is right out of the cheaters script. First she has you calling it a mistake, when in fact it was a decision. Second, you cannot really plan your future if you only look forward without addressing her decision to cheat. “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”- Sir Winston Churchill


:iagree:


----------



## Kevinb

I really wish you well and hope that things work out for the best for you and your wife. I just can't but help but feel that you are hanging onto threads of hope and just taking in the posts that suit you.

You don't sound like you have ever got ANGRY about this. I don't think you have ever confronted the other woman and asked her WTF is this all about!

I don't know, but do you think your wife would respect you more if you took the reigns more and if you did, how would it make the situation worse?

I know you're scared that you may push her away...but really she's kinda gone now and really only wants to stay for the comfort of being in a "family". Is this what you want?

I don't think you're a weak man but it certainly is coming across that way and hey...I Don't blame you I understand that you are desperate to keep this thing together.

Perhaps she needs you to take a more definite stance and she has to live the outcome of her consequence before she realises what she has lost and if she doesn't ...you're in a no worse position than you are now.

The way you come across to me is " maybe" how she sees you...a little weak.

Good luck with it Mate


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> How is she playing around?


what else would you call it ?


----------



## RoseAglow

FamilyMan15 said:


> The problem is that, even though I may be in denial, I just don't think she is a lesbian for many factors (our past experience being the main part). Can a woman in a really bad place emotionally fall for another woman (at least initially) purely out of emotional attachment and then while the physical part feels "different" because it comes with that person that has shown so much caring for you, you think it's ok. That thinking it's ok leads to you questioning your sexuality. "If I'm ok with sex with a girl, I must be a lesbian." Could that be the case here?
> 
> I'm not saying she isn't a bisexual, but I've just never ever seen any indication of her desire for girls (and we've been together almost 20 years). I think if you take the emotion aside, I really don't believe she is attracted to females in general - I believe she is attracted to this particular woman because of a really strong emotional bond that formed in a time of need and that's made the physical part confusing to her "well I love this person and while this feels a little weird it's just because it's new" Attraction is a pretty complex thing when you mix in emotions.
> 
> Ultimately if she's had a physical relationship with a girl, does that make her bi or lesbian? or can women do through phases when there is emotional attachment? I really don't know. I guess in the end the label doesn't really matter. I'm just trying to help her figure out which lifestyle is the right one long term. If she's just really attracted emotionally, the physical part is going to be a problem down the line I think.





Hicks said:


> You're making a very serious mistake. *You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. * However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.
> 
> You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is "* You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did"*.


LOL! I am sorry Hicks- "Potential Lesbianism" is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.

Let's flip this for a minute. If FM was FamilyWoman and she came here saying "My husband is in love with another man. He's been physical and is now wrestling with whether to leave me or not to go live with the man!" this would not be an issue. It would be obvious that the man has homosexual tendencies and is at least bi. The however-many-years-of-marriage and "he liked me in a teddy" wouldn't eradicate the fact that he also was attracted physically and emotionally towards men.

If a man fell in love with another man and enjoyed sex with the guy, does he have "Potential Gayness"? If he is willing to leave his wife and kids for a man and live in the world publicly in a homosexual relationship, is he "Potentially Gay"?

FM- can you imagine in any case, no matter how emotionally charged, that you could fall in love with a man? To where you might consider actually leaving and tearing your family apart- and then think, "Eh, I am not REALLY bi or gay."

Women are notoriously tight with our besties, we have circles of friends, sometimes our best friends know things about us that even our husbands don't know. We might go out on GNO and get trashed. But, (at least after some potential college experimentation), we don't make out, have sex, and fall in love with our best female friends unless we are gay. _We don't seriously consider breaking our family in two and destroying a relationship of 20 years unless we have some bisexual tendencies for sure!_



Jung_admirer said:


> Take a look:
> The humiliating dance of pick me
> 
> Post your thoughts about dancing...


I love Chump Lady! However, she is about ditching your cheater and getting a life. The OP doesn't want to ditch his cheater, at least not at this time.

FM can demonstrate to his WW that he is a strong, attractive man, that he has the ability to be an amazing partner to anyone, and that if she stays with him she gets an intact family, sees the kids every day, won't have to worry about a stepmother taking her place 50% of the time...and STILL get her emotional needs met because he is able and willing to do so. Showing her this doesn't have to be Pick Me- it can just be *"Here is what you have to lose. I am here to help you if you want to stay with your family. We need to make changes but we can build a wonderful marriage together."*

Back to Hicks. I agree with this edited version:


> What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without [you].
> 
> And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.
> 
> Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
> - I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
> - I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.


FM, the evidence before you shows that your wife is bi-sexual. She loves you and she loves a woman. It is incredibly disrespectful to tell her that YOU know more about her sexuality than she does. You can insist all you want but she has the evidence she needs and she is the one making the decision.

I think the heart of your question is- can she be attracted to women and have emotional connections with women, and not also have them for men? Do I have to lose her over this? And that is probably the exact same question your wife is asking herself. 

I think you have a chance. I used the gay men examples above because I think it is clear that your wife is bi, and I feel those examples present it in a way that more men will understand.

On the other hand- let's think a minute about what might draw a bi person to one side or the other when they are ready to be in a committed, life-long relationship.

People fall in love with the person who best meets their emotional needs. For most men, sex and physical attractiveness are near or at the time of their emotional need list. I think a bi man is likely to go towards men, especially if, like most men, sex is at the top of their needs. As a _very general_ statement, most men and especially gay men work hard to be attractive and _generally speaking_, I suspect men are likely to have a better chance of finding someone closer to their drive. Again, this is REALLY general- there are certainly low-drive men. But roll the dice and I think you're much more likely to find men with similar drives than you are trying to randomly match women and men. I know many more gay men than gay women- I have yet to hear a gay man say "He doesn't understand how important sex is!!" like you hear day in and day out on TAM and elsewhere. No gay man is surprised if his lover leaves because there isn't enough sex, whereas women are often shocked that their man will leave sa marriage over it.

Women though- our top drives are emotional intimacy/conversation, affection (not sex), family commitment. While it's hard to beat out a woman in those skills, men certainly can learn them and provide them. Men in really good marriages tend to be the ones who really listen, who make it safe for their woman to really show him who she is. And you are the father of her kids so you certainly can win out over Family Commitment. 

I know the heteros here are telling your their tried and true ways, and it worked for them on their hetero wives. 

It is my opinion that everyone is working with horses but yours is of a different color.

Boot her and you are showing her that she is absolutely NOT going to get the emotional support and emotional intimacy from you that she will likely get from her Woman. 

The idea when you do this in normal affairs is that typically, the AP is able to provide for 20% of the WS's emotional needs and the spouse was providing the other 80%. So that when the BS leaves, the WS realizes that the BS was the better call.

However, here, just like if you pull a random sample, two men are likely to be closer in sex drive than a random woman and man, you can pull two women randomly and they more likely are going to be closer to having similar needs and understanding of women's top needs than a randomly selected hetero match. 

In other words, she can be pretty sure that even if her current SO doesn't work out, if your wife looks for another woman, that woman is also likely to be able to understand and provide for her emotional needs better.

You aren't competing against another man. It's not Choose Him or Me where it's just one guy vs. another. It is a stay with your family or follow your attraction where you are likely going to get your emotional needs met better and thus will be happier.

This is my logic, I don't know if it is really how it plays out in reality. I think it's pretty likely though, just from my real world observations and general understanding of emotional needs.

Despite the hell they catch, the looks they get, the discrimination they face, all the stuff that homosexuals still deal with in the US, my husband's cousin is much happier in her current relationship than she was being married. Her ex-H isn't a bad guy, but he just worked and didn't do much else for her (and she worked as well, it's not like she depended on him financially). He was rarely around at family gatherings, and if he was, he clearly wasn't happy about it and left early. The AP/GF is always there, they got into running together, they do everything together. 

So be the man your wife fell in love with, AND especially now in her critical time, be supportive. By supportive, I mean be there for her, keep your temper under control, be willing to really hear her even when it hurts, help to discuss and navigate her thoughts. Tell her you love her, you want her, you want your family, and you are willing to help her work this out, even if it ends up that she needs to go away from you- all the things you're doing now. 

I agree with the others that at the same time you must ensure she is not in contact with the other woman. If she is in contact you must expose and throw chaos into the affair to break it. At the same time still be supportive, still listen, just have "I am fighting to save my family" on repeat in your head and on your tongue. It's tricky business but busting the affair and being supportive to her as she allows can occur simultaneously.


----------



## happyman64

RoseAglow

I believe that 99.9% of the population is bi.

I truly do.

But just because we might feel an attraction to the same sex does not mean we will choose that path. Or need to act on this impulse. Lust is not love. And 6 months versus many years is just delusion.

Men and women make promises to themselves and sometimes to each other.

If my wife was confused after 48 years of life, 23 years of marriage and the birth of 3 daughters then I would gladly tell her to go find herself.

She is in control of her own destiny.

But if my wife broke her vow to me, blindsided me, lied to me and cheated on me then I would know she is more than just confused.

She is lost. She is of no use to me (marriage), our children and our family.

And until she could live her life without the lies, cheating then she should live her life without me.

FM has his wife at home. She has stopped the lies and cheating as far as he can verify. His wife is in IC.

She needs it. SHe obviously needs him or she would not be at home with him.

She knows she made bad decisions which has hurt him and their marriage. That is good that she understands this.

Whether she decides to live the gay lifestyle or not is secondary to her living a life without lies and deceit.

Secondary to raising her children.

Secondary to honoring her vows that she entered with FM.

He is giving her the chance to make it right. Not all spouses offer a 2nd chance.

If she decides to R then she will need to face the consequences for her bad decision.

And any woman who married a man and had kids is not gay.

FM is hoping she reaches this conclusion as well. I am too.

HM


----------



## lordmayhem

FamilyMan15 said:


> Of course she should have, and she realizes that she should have, but talking about mistakes made isn't constructive at this point. I'm looking towards solutions for the future.


Wrong, what you and your WW want to do is rugsweep. You have to keep talking about it until you are secure - it helps you heal. Your WW is not truly remorseful if she doesn't want to talk about it with you. If she was truly remorseful, part of the heavy lifting is helping you get through this to heal and that means talking about it.










But you only listen to those who you want to listen to. That's your choice. Just about all of us have been there and done that and have been in your shoes. Cheater behavior is fairly predictable, and thus the methods to deal with it work in many situations.

But if you want to rugsweep, then good luck with that. I'm out of this thread.


----------



## ButtPunch

Rose

That man she fell in love with is now a codependent mess she helped create. How can he be that man when her two feet are firmly planted on her doormat. OP deserves to be angry, has a right to be angry, and quite frankly deserves a better woman. No good woman would blow up a family because she's curious about her sexuality. 

OP 

Follow Happyman's advice and start reading the books I suggested and work on yourself. Placating an unremorseful cheater in my opinion is just plain bad advice. Rugsweeping is even worse.


----------



## wmn1

Kevinb said:


> I really wish you well and hope that things work out for the best for you and your wife. I just can't but help but feel that you are hanging onto threads of hope and just taking in the posts that suit you.
> 
> You don't sound like you have ever got ANGRY about this. I don't think you have ever confronted the other woman and asked her WTF is this all about!
> 
> I don't know, but do you think your wife would respect you more if you took the reigns more and if you did, how would it make the situation worse?
> 
> I know you're scared that you may push her away...but really she's kinda gone now and really only wants to stay for the comfort of being in a "family". Is this what you want?
> 
> I don't think you're a weak man but it certainly is coming across that way and hey...I Don't blame you I understand that you are desperate to keep this thing together.
> 
> Perhaps she needs you to take a more definite stance and she has to live the outcome of her consequence before she realises what she has lost and if she doesn't ...you're in a no worse position than you are now.
> 
> The way you come across to me is " maybe" how she sees you...a little weak.
> 
> Good luck with it Mate


agreed, especially the first sentence


----------



## wmn1

From Rose:

FM, the evidence before you shows that your wife is bi-sexual. She loves you and she loves a woman. It is incredibly disrespectful to tell her that YOU know more about her sexuality than she does. You can insist all you want but she has the evidence she needs and she is the one making the decision.




****** Nothing he does at this point is 'disrespectful', unless it's violence. Especially incredibly disrespectful. She was the incredibly disrespectful one by having the affair, changing sexual preferences after all these years of marriage and having a kid and HE HAS every right to take the reigns of this situation and curb her a$$. He can easily make a decision and there is not one person I know, friend or not, who would have been as patient as this guy. let alone keep her in the same house amicably while letting her make up her mind over whether she wants to continue destroying his life.


----------



## RoseAglow

HM, I respect you. I think you are wrong here.

If she isn't gay what is she? How do you explain her falling in love with a woman. That 99% of women have the ability to fall in love with another woman? I see no evidence at all that that is the case. 

Do you think 99% of men are able to fall in love with other men? Can you fall in love with a man? A small percentage (<10% I believe?) of men do and they call themselves Gay or Homosexual. The majority of men can't fall in love with a man and they are identify as Heterosexual.

This comes down to "Is Gay a Choice or an Inherent trait"? You seem to think it is a choice. I think the vast preponderance of evidence shows that it is not a choice. By evidence I mean the study of human behavior. There is a group of people who are bi-sexual but most of us are firmly hetero.

Yes, she made vows to him. It is not fair that she cheated. It is not right. It hurts, it is devastating when a family is broken up.

If the OP wants to go to divorce because he has a cheating wife, then that is his right. No one would blame him.

Right now, he doesn't want to go to divorce. He wants to try to keep his marriage and his family together.

You say she is making a choice to live in deceit with her woman or stay true in her hetero marriage. 

I say- and so will many people- that if she is gay, she will NOT be living in deceit. She will be living truthfully and authentically. 

You say any woman who marries a man and has kids is not gay. 

I say any woman who is emotionally and physically to another woman and enjoys sex with her is gay. She might be bi, but she is also gay. They are not mutually exclusive. 

My husband's cousin, in her long-term gay relationship, was married and has two kids. She is bi and gay. You can insist she is not gay but she is the one who would know. You can call her life a lie, living in deceit, but to her, she is living exactly as she should. She is out and open and very happy. Her kids are doing fine.

There are plenty of men who were married and had kids, and later came out as Gay. Were they not gay either? 

Family Man, insisting that you know that she isn't gay when she believes she is will not earn you any points. It will just reinforce for her that you will not be able to understand her like another woman would.

I do agree that since she is home with you and has (at least purportedly) cut off the AP, she is struggling. She is not convinced that being in a homosexual relationship will provide her with full happiness. 

I also agree with the general "Surviving an Affair" steps that if you do reconcile and she stays, there need to be REALLY strict boundaries agreed upon and maintained. If you both decide to keep the family together, there will need to be major protections in place.

It sounds like they had a pretty good marriage with a few rough spots prior to the affair; I hope the wife also comes to the conclusion that the marriage is the best option. I am generally pro-marriage. She might be gay but she also has a love for men, obviously. If the husband can meet her needs, she can find happiness there.

I just think that she will more moves towards the choice of staying with him in a hetero relationship if he is supportive. I think doing the "fence knocking" is incredibly counter-productive in this instance.




happyman64 said:


> RoseAglow
> 
> I believe that 99.9% of the population is bi.
> 
> I truly do.
> 
> But just because we might feel an attraction to the same sex does not mean we will choose that path.
> 
> Men and women make promises to themselves and sometimes to each other.
> 
> If my wife was confused after 48 years of life, 23 years of marriage and the birth of 3 daughters then I would gladly tell her to go find herself.
> 
> She is in control of her own destiny.
> 
> But if my wife broke her vow to me, blindsided me, lied to me and cheated on me then I would know she is more than just confused.
> 
> She is lost. She is of no use to me (marriage), our children and our family.
> 
> And until she could live her life without the lies, cheating then she should live her life without me.
> 
> FM has his wife at home. She has stopped the lies and cheating as far as he can verify. His wife is in IC.
> 
> She needs it. SHe obviously needs him or she would not be at home with him.
> 
> She knows she made bad decisions which has hurt him and their marriage. That is good that she understands this.
> 
> Whether she decides to live the gay lifestyle or not is secondary to her living a life without lies and deceit.
> 
> Secondary to raising her children.
> 
> Secondary to honoring her vows that she entered with FM.
> 
> He is giving her the chance to make it right. Not all spouses offer a 2nd chance.
> 
> If she decides to R then she will need to face the consequences for her bad decision.
> 
> And any woman who married a man and had kids is not gay.
> 
> FM is hoping she reaches this conclusion as well. I am too.
> 
> HM


----------



## badmemory

FamilyMan15 said:


> I have to get past that *for now* if I want to reconcile (which I do).


No you don't.

And if you do, you're approaching R the wrong way; driven by your fear of divorce.

There has to be a step by step approach by the BS to have a successful R. You can't skip the first step. The step where you accept nothing less than your wife having the motivation to move mountains to demonstrate her remorse and help you heal. Where she understands that her A, her own actions, have to be dealt with by you *FIRST.*

If she responds like she needs to, then the healing process can begin and *THEN*, you can start working on the marital issues.

Don't skip that first step familyman. Even if she agrees to attempt R, you'll regret it if you do.


----------



## RoseAglow

ButtPunch said:


> Rose
> 
> That man she fell in love with is now a codependent mess she helped create. How can he be that man when her two feet are firmly planted on her doormat. *OP deserves to be angry, has a right to be angry, and quite frankly deserves a better woman. No good woman would blow up a family because she's curious about her sexuality.*


I am not about the co-dependent part, but I agree 100% with the bold.

His wife cheated. He has every right to be angry, he has every right to decide to divorce. He has every right to find a woman who would not blow up her family for any reason, sexuality or otherwise. Absolutely yes.

Right now he wants to reconcile. He has the right to be furious and to leave, and he also has the right to try to save his marriage and family if he wants to do so.

So far, he wants to save his marriage. IMO he has the right to leave at any time, after reconciliation or otherwise, if it turns out that he can't stomach being with a cheater.



> OP
> 
> Follow Happyman's advice and start reading the books I suggested and work on yourself. Placating an unremorseful cheater in my opinion is just plain bad advice. Rugsweeping is even worse.


I have to go back and look. It seems like she has been transparent with him, but not remorseful. Of course she's not remorseful at this time, she is trying to figure out if she would be better off in a homosexual relationship. She might get to remorse later on if she concludes that it's better to keep the heterosexual relationship and they are able to successful reconcile; at that point she might be remorseful and horrified that she almost lost her marriage.


----------



## arbitrator

*In agreement with those that say that infidelity knows no bounds in terms of gender. In the marked absence of any true, genuine remorse by her for you, your family, your community, and your church, other than saying she is having an "identity crisis," that her precursory regrets are strictly artificial.

Cheating is cheating ~ no matter who one's act of unfaithfulness/infidelity is committed with!*


----------



## ButtPunch

Rose

OP Doesn't know what he wants. He can't think clearly because of the shock he has experienced. I know this feeling. He is making decisions based purely on the fear of divorce and the effect he thinks it will have on his family and kids.

He hasn't had time to accept what has happened. He is at the save the marriage at all cost stage. He needs to regain his sense of self and see her for what she truly is and right now that is an unremorseful cheater.


----------



## wmn1

lordmayhem said:


> Wrong, what you and your WW want to do is rugsweep. You have to keep talking about it until you are secure - it helps you heal. Your WW is not truly remorseful if she doesn't want to talk about it with you. If she was truly remorseful, part of the heavy lifting is helping you get through this to heal and that means talking about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But you only listen to those who you want to listen to. That's your choice. Just about all of us have been there and done that and have been in your shoes. Cheater behavior is fairly predictable, and thus the methods to deal with it work in many situations.
> 
> But if you want to rugsweep, then good luck with that. I'm out of this thread.


:iagree:


----------



## RoseAglow

wmn1 said:


> From Rose:
> 
> FM, the evidence before you shows that your wife is bi-sexual. She loves you and she loves a woman. It is incredibly disrespectful to tell her that YOU know more about her sexuality than she does. You can insist all you want but she has the evidence she needs and she is the one making the decision.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ****** Nothing he does at this point is 'disrespectful', unless it's violence. Especially incredibly disrespectful. She was the incredibly disrespectful one by having the affair, changing sexual preferences after all these years of marriage and having a kid and HE HAS every right to take the reigns of this situation and curb her a$$. He can easily make a decision and there is not one person I know, friend or not, who would have been as patient as this guy. let alone keep her in the same house amicably while letting her make up her mind over whether she wants to continue destroying his life.


He is still responsible for his own actions. It is disrespectful to think that you know someone's feelings better than they do.

Yes, what she did was also incredibly disrespectful.

He has every right to boot her. He has every right to divorce. He has said that he wasn't want to do that.


----------



## RoseAglow

ButtPunch said:


> Rose
> 
> OP Doesn't know what he wants. He can't think clearly because of the shock he has experienced. I know this feeling. He is making decisions based purely on the fear of divorce and the effect he thinks it will have on his family and kids.
> 
> He hasn't had time to accept what has happened. He is at the save the marriage at all cost stage. He needs to regain his sense of self and see her for what she truly is and right now that is an unremorseful cheater.


I can agree with all of this. I would just add that in addition to being an unremorseful cheater, she is also struggling with her sexualitly identity. And to me, that changes how he should handle this.

I agree that he needs to regain his sense of self- it is critically important that he finds a way to do so. 

And, I think that if he continues to want to stay with his wife, he has to avoid the "Kick Her Out and Make Her Choose" camp and instead move into "I will help you figure this out" camp.

She is bi and so she can have her needs met by a man or a woman. Like most human beings, she will go towards the person who best meets her emotional needs. If they can get to a place where their needs are met AND they have strong boundaries, strong marital protection, I think they can find success. But she has to find her way there first.


----------



## RoseAglow

arbitrator said:


> *In agreement with those that say that infidelity knows no bounds in terms of gender. In the marked absence of any true, genuine remorse by her for you, your family, your community, and your church, other than saying she is having an "identity crisis," that her precursory regrets are strictly artificial.
> 
> Cheating is cheating ~ no matter who one's act of unfaithfulness/infidelity is committed with!*


Yes, I think this is true. Cheating is cheating. People are still devastated, families are still ripped apart.

If divorced, new relationships are made, co-parenting happens, etc. Sometimes divorce is the best route, when couples are truly incompatible. They can be incompatible for sexual drive, values, sexuality, it doesn't matter. 

The main difference is how to approach reconciliation IMO. Even then, once the reconciliation happens it is just like any other relationship: meet needs and have strong boundaries to create a strong and happy marriage.


----------



## ButtPunch

RoseAglow said:


> He has every right to divorce. He has said that he wasn't want to do that.


and that is where he needs to work on himself. An emotionally strong and healthy man will see after the initial shock subsides that divorce is the best option. What can we do to make sure that OP does the work and gets his self esteem back and be able to break the codependent hold on him. 

He is a man whose wife isn't sure she wants to be with him. The healthy response is if you aren't sure you want me.....GTFO!


----------



## wmn1

RoseAglow said:


> He is still responsible for his own actions. It is disrespectful to think that you know someone's feelings better than they do.
> 
> Yes, what she did was also incredibly disrespectful.
> 
> He has every right to boot her. He has every right to divorce. He has said that he wasn't want to do that.


Ok I understand where you are coming from. It is my opinion that she has no right to point at him for being disrespectful for anything at this point. She torpedoed the ship, now she doesn't have say in how to repair it. She can decide to jump overboard if she wants or can help in repairs only if the crew (him) wants her to. 

I still see him headed to ruin but it's his choice at this point.


----------



## ButtPunch

RoseAglow said:


> I agree that he needs to regain his sense of self- it is critically important that he finds a way to do so.
> 
> And, I think that if he continues to want to stay with his wife, he has to avoid the "Kick Her Out and Make Her Choose" camp and instead move into "I will help you figure this out" camp.
> 
> .



He needs to be in the "Move On With MY Life Camp"


----------



## Hicks

Maybe she's a lesbian. Maybe she's not a lesbian. Only she and God know for sure. It's not about us arguing with each other about whether she is, was, could be in the future.

FamilyMan does not believe she is a lesbian. What I am saying is he needs to act on his beliefs. Since he believes she is not a lesbian, does it make sense for him to permit her time to figure out whether she is a lesbian? If he does that he is telling her he thinks she is a lesbian. If he wants a marriage to her, he as to believe she is not a lesbian and she has to also believe she is not a lesbian. Is self reflection and counseling the only way for her to arrive at this decision? I think a husband who unwaveringly points out a very reasonable argument based on what he he has seen and experienced over a 20 year period as to why a non lesbian would have an affair with a woman is every bit as important as her counseling and her self reflection. At best he should admit that if anything she is "possibly bisexual", but that should have no bearing on her ability to remain faithful or stay in her marriage and maintain her family. Could she eventually determine that she is a lesbian? YES. Should he encourage her to determine this? Not if he wants marriage.

Now, could a hetero man get involved in a sexual relationship with another man, but not identify his sexual orientation as gay? I think that is very possible. What if he was married and his wife refused to have sex with him. Rather than face all the reasons he cannot get his wife to be attracted to him, he could instead start having sex with men as a way out of a sexless marriage.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I say for the moment familyman, start detaching and find ways to improve yourself and your life. The facts at the moments are, you are not sure you will have a marriage at the end. She can still find it to be more awarding to be with women, and her wanting to stay married to you is uncertain at the moment. You need to help yourself first, and start the detaching process. Your placing your life on hold for an uncertain outcome. Just like you can decide to reconcile, she can decide to leave. It takes two to reconcile, one to quit. If she is more fulfilled being with a woman, but decides to come back for the children, could you live with that? That is another possibility to consider, or would you want her and yourself to be in a fulfilling relationship? She will only feel remorse if she decides to stay in a hetero relationship, and decides she wants you to give her another chance. A lot of outcomes, so my best advice is to improve yourself, so no matter the outcome, you will be fine.


----------



## happyman64

Rose

What makes you think she is in love with the OW?

If she truly was she would never have moved home.

She has doubts. She has reservations.

She needs to know what the OW is to her.

Time will tell. Most likely not to be measured in days but weeks and/or months.

And FM needs to decide how much time he is willing to give her.

ANd she is not a lesbian. She is bi. and bi=selfish in my book.

HM


----------



## LongWalk

If lesbian identity is everything, there is no battle to fight. OP cannot go into her brain and tinker with the wiring.

What he can do is show her firmly that he is not a co-dependent doormat. 

He should definitely take page out of the JLD play book and be strong. File for divorce while acting like a dignified self respecting human being. 

OP should put the kids first. She may decide that she wants R but it has to be based on love and attraction.


----------



## Q tip

Changing teams is non-sequitur. 

Cheating IS cheating. There is no justification. She got seduced. By a player. She Probably does this a lot. 

Maybe some advice from bi/lesbian community forum would be helpful? Kinda out of my league.


----------



## RoseAglow

Hicks said:


> Maybe she's a lesbian. Maybe she's not a lesbian. Only she and God know for sure. It's not about us arguing with each other about whether she is, was, could be in the future.
> 
> FamilyMan does not believe she is a lesbian. What I am saying is he needs to act on his beliefs. Since he believes she is not a lesbian, does it make sense for him to permit her time to figure out whether she is a lesbian? If he does that he is telling her he thinks she is a lesbian. If he wants a marriage to her, he as to believe she is not a lesbian and she has to also believe she is not a lesbian. Is self reflection and counseling the only way for her to arrive at this decision? I think a husband who unwaveringly points out a very reasonable argument based on what he he has seen and experienced over a 20 year period as to why a non lesbian would have an affair with a woman is every bit as important as her counseling and her self reflection. *At best he should admit that if anything she is "possibly bisexual", but that should have no bearing on her ability to remain faithful or stay in her marriage and maintain her family. Could she eventually determine that she is a lesbian? YES. Should he encourage her to determine this? Not if he wants marriage.*
> 
> Now, could a hetero man get involved in a sexual relationship with another man, but not identify his sexual orientation as gay? I think that is very possible. What if he was married and his wife refused to have sex with him. Rather than face all the reasons he cannot get his wife to be attracted to him, he could instead start having sex with men as a way out of a sexless marriage.


I appreciate your open-mindedness. I think most hetero men seek out women to have sex with when they look outside their marriage to get some. Most hetero men would not seek out men...unless they were gay. But it's a circular argument.

I think the bold encourage rug-sweeping of the highest quality.
Do you really think that if he doesn't acknowledge her attraction to women that it won't exist? He wasn't aware that she WAS attracted to women, and she had an affair with a woman. What difference does it make whether or not he "admits possibly she is bi"? His words will not and cannot affect her sexuality. As evidenced by the affair, yes?

What I DO agree with is that his best and strongest stance is to say, 

"You will have a better life with me. You will keep your family. You will wake up every day with your children until they are grown. You will have every holiday with them. AND, I can meet your needs better- in fact I can meet them so well that you will be madly in love with me, just like before. You know I can, I've already done it. I can be your rock. 

I am WILLING to do this IF you completely break off the affair, IF you agree to commit to our relationship. IF you agree that together we need to establish very strong boundaries so that this can never happen again. You are attracted to women AND men so you have to be willing to commit to me, and to avoid situations where another person can start to meet your needs. I will be your best friend, talk to me about all your important items. I will be the one who you want to spend the most time with. We will go over and enact really strong boundaries so that our marriage is safe and secure."

He can ignore her sexuality all he wants, but she feels it. No matter she might ultimately decide to leave him for another woman. He can't make her decide that but he can encourage her to go one way or the other. The difference is that I believe he is better off acknowledging what happened and saying "I can still love you better, I can give you an amazing life and you know it. I am a known quantity. I will not let it get back to what it was, if YOU don't let it get back there either."

I don't think rug-sweeping and or even worse, stating that only God can know her sexuality is a HUGE mistake. It will only convince her that her husband doesn't know her, and the woman who won her heart sees her and understands her much better than her husband. She saw what he can't.


----------



## RoseAglow

happyman64 said:


> Rose
> 
> What makes you think she is in love with the OW?


I think she is in love with the OW because the OP states it, he sees it in his and knows her, and because she is considering breaking her marriage for it. I'm not sure what else it could be. 



> If she truly was she would never have moved home.


Well, maybe. But stepping out into a gay relationship is HUGE. It's easier to be gay now in the US than it was, but I don't think it is easy. There is still a lot of discrimination. 

Add it to the "normal affair" stress of breaking apart a family and I don't think the fact that she is home means that she doesn't love the AP. I don't recall reading that she left and came back but I might have missed it. In any case WSs do move back and are still in love with their APs. 



> She has doubts. She has reservations.
> 
> She needs to know what the OW is to her.
> 
> Time will tell. Most likely not to be measured in days but weeks and/or months.
> 
> And FM needs to decide how much time he is willing to give her.


I agree with all these points.


----------



## RoseAglow

ButtPunch said:


> and that is where he needs to work on himself. An emotionally strong and healthy man will see after the initial shock subsides that divorce is the best option. What can we do to make sure that OP does the work and gets his self esteem back and be able to break the codependent hold on him.
> 
> He is a man whose wife isn't sure she wants to be with him. The healthy response is if you aren't sure you want me.....GTFO!
> 
> He needs to be in the "Move On With MY Life Camp"


He has every right to boot her out, to tell her GTFO. He has every right to decide that he doesn't want to be with a wife who is All In and to move on with his life. No argument there.

I don't believe that it is the only Healthy Path for a BS. It's one path and it's a strong one, but it's not the ONLY strong one.

I think he can be strong, confident, and get a sense of himself and still be supportive of her. Support doesn't mean that he rolls over and does whatever she wants. Support means that he can acknowledge his pain, discuss his rights to divorce if he wanted, but also state that he is willing to work with her. 

jld's post on possible discussions was awesome. Let your wife get it all out on the table. Let her discuss it all, safely. 

And, once she is done, gently point out all the wonderful times you've had, you ability to meet her needs, how important it is for the family to be happy and together. These are important considerations. She also knows that she can be happy with her husband- he is willing to make it happen, if she is willing to work with him. And working with him will mean that they both put their marriage first and protect it from interlopers, be they male or female. 

She is home so he has the availability every day to show him what she could opt to miss out on. He should work on being Awesome for himself. He can invite her to do things but still do them if she declines. He can be Super Dad- family is so, so important to most women and it is his strongest card. If he is a good dad (and he sure sounds like one) NO ONE can love her children like he will. He can Get a Life while inviting her to join him. If he does this, he will show BOTH of them that he can in fact have a great life with or without her. 

At some point each will have to make a decision. This is performance time and at any time _either one_ could decide to end it.

Make this count, OP. Be the best Man you can be- not necessarily for her but for YOU. You are getting mostly consistent advice from nearly posters, except most of the guys suggest that you freeze her out and I think you should invite her in. But either way, self improvement! Get your confidence back.

If she does go, you will be in a better place. If YOU go, you will be in a better place. You will never lose by self-improvement.


----------



## cdbaker

Sorry for the following posts length, and I admit I haven't read every single preceeding page, but I did want to share a few thoughts that might be helpful, I hope:


I really get the feeling that she's not a lesbian, she just found in the OW someone who was willing to step in and serve as her emotional support at a time when she didn't feel like she had that at home with you. I don't think she's attracted to women, so much as she is attracted to the OW as a person, the emotional support and love that she received from her. I think you've mentioned it already, but I agree that I think in time if she were to commit to her long term that it would probably fade and end poorly, as real life enters the picture and the sneaky cheating "honeymoon" period of excitement ends.

With that said, even if that's true, there will be no convincing her of that, and you shouldn't even try. She could not have done what she did if not for the fact that she's lost most of her respect for you and see's you as incapable of meeting her needs. I know others have said this, but you'll only dig that hole deeper if you forgive her this quickly, or make her believe that you'll do anything to save the marriage, or are desperate in any way. You don't have to punish her, but I do think you need to make quite clear, very quickly, that her indecision is just as unacceptable as her affair was. That she is betraying you and your kids no less by being at home with you and waiting around to make a decision.

So I think the only way you'll earn back her respect, which will be essential for saving the marriage, is if you can take some bold steps that show that you respect yourself and deserve better than the current situation with your wife. You can do that by filing for divorce first and requesting temporary emergency custody of the kids in your home. It's incredibly easy to file for both and receiving temporary custody is pretty much automatic in most states I believe. The reason would be that you're concerned that your wife is involved in an affair, and she has already spoken about forcibly removing the kids from their home to move in with the affair partner. Any child psychologist on the planet would confirm that this is extremely detrimental to the children. (Divorce is bad enough, but finding out about it while being uprooted from your home with no warning and forced to co-habitat with a new romantic figure of one of your parents, knowing how much it hurts your other parent, is incredibly damaging)

You don't have to go to war with your wife however, or even kick her out of the home, or keep her from seeing the kids. You could explain to her that this situation is unacceptable to you, and until she can make her firm decision to commit to you and her family and renounce the other woman entirely, you're going to want to have the divorce process moving forward. After all, if the present situation is unacceptable, or her choosing to leave you for her will be unacceptable, then the only two end results will be divorce, or true reconciliation. Since the divorce process often takes a few months, why not get started with it while also sending the message that you're not a push-over who is going to let her walk all over you. This step demands respect.

As for the kids, they won't need to know anything, your wife doesn't have to move out (unless you she makes her decision to leave or you find out that she's still in contact with the OW) and her ability to parent the kids doesn't have to change at all. If asked why you got emergency temporary custody, I'd answer that it's because she has specifically said to you that she had planned to take the kids away to live with her and the other woman, and while she claims that the affair is over for now, she admits that she is still considering that option presently. Since her plan would be incredibly detrimental to the well being of your children, this order simply requires that they remain living at home under your temporary responsibility, since she's admitted to being willing to put them through a traumatic experience for her own gain.

To clarify, parents divorce all the time, and sometimes kids end up having to move out of their family home into the home of one spouse or the other, and sometimes that spouse has a new significant other that enters the living arrangement as well. It happens. However, when it is necessary, it should happen over a long period of time to allow the kids to adjust to each individual element of the break-up and new living arrangements, not in a blink of an eye as your wife seems willing to do.

It's sort of like saying, "Look, I don't trust you, and you know exactly why I can't trust you. You've also shared with me a plan you and your affair partner concocted that would cause great detrimental harm to our children, and admitted that you are still considering it. So in their best interest, I asked the court to temporarily give me the ability to prevent that from happening, should you choose that route."

I would also very much suggest getting the kids into see a child psychologist, and if possible, get his/her opinion on how your wife's plan might be detrimental to the children. That could help you in court if you need it.

The divorce process would likely give her several months or more to make a decision. Heck, it would probably give her enough time to make the decision and either prove to you to some degree that she's really committed to you and the marriage, or return to the OW and let the reality of real life with her settle in, including not having her kids living with her (thanks to the temporary court order), facing the guilt/shame of all of her friends and family finding out what she's done, and losing the sneaky/exciting element of the love affair while dealing with figuring out how to effectively separate laundry for two adult women in the same home. Then when the court date looms near, you can make a final decision on either going through with it, or withdrawing the petition altogether.


Incidentally, I do have some experience with this option, as my wife and I went through an almost identical scenario as you and your wife, only my wife's affair was with an old man twice her age. (Not quite the same leap from a man to a woman, but a young, healthy mid-twenties white collar man to a short, balding, mid-fifties man with an $8/hr job and no home/car is still a pretty big leap) I found out about her plans to leave with our child, I filed for divorce and temporary custody immediately. Her thick affair fog and the sense of entitlement it carried sure made her angry as hell with me for doing so, but eventually she calmed down. It took a long time, but we reconciled just over two years ago.


----------



## harrybrown

So if you have an A, she would be able to handle it?

Because she expects you to let her choose, you should be making a choice.

You can't control her, but you can control the results of her actions.

She sure does not seem to respect you.

Sorry.


----------



## ButtPunch

cdbaker said:


> Sorry for the following posts length, and I admit I haven't read every single preceeding page, but I did want to share a few thoughts that might be helpful, I hope:
> 
> 
> I really get the feeling that she's not a lesbian, she just found in the OW someone who was willing to step in and serve as her emotional support at a time when she didn't feel like she had that at home with you. I don't think she's attracted to women, so much as she is attracted to the OW as a person, the emotional support and love that she received from her. I think you've mentioned it already, but I agree that I think in time if she were to commit to her long term that it would probably fade and end poorly, as real life enters the picture and the sneaky cheating "honeymoon" period of excitement ends.
> 
> With that said, even if that's true, there will be no convincing her of that, and you shouldn't even try. She could not have done what she did if not for the fact that she's lost most of her respect for you and see's you as incapable of meeting her needs. I know others have said this, but you'll only dig that hole deeper if you forgive her this quickly, or make her believe that you'll do anything to save the marriage, or are desperate in any way. You don't have to punish her, but I do think you need to make quite clear, very quickly, that her indecision is just as unacceptable as her affair was. That she is betraying you and your kids no less by being at home with you and waiting around to make a decision.
> 
> So I think the only way you'll earn back her respect, which will be essential for saving the marriage, is if you can take some bold steps that show that you respect yourself and deserve better than the current situation with your wife. You can do that by filing for divorce first and requesting temporary emergency custody of the kids in your home. It's incredibly easy to file for both and receiving temporary custody is pretty much automatic in most states I believe. The reason would be that you're concerned that your wife is involved in an affair, and she has already spoken about forcibly removing the kids from their home to move in with the affair partner. Any child psychologist on the planet would confirm that this is extremely detrimental to the children. (Divorce is bad enough, but finding out about it while being uprooted from your home with no warning and forced to co-habitat with a new romantic figure of one of your parents, knowing how much it hurts your other parent, is incredibly damaging)
> 
> You don't have to go to war with your wife however, or even kick her out of the home, or keep her from seeing the kids. You could explain to her that this situation is unacceptable to you, and until she can make her firm decision to commit to you and her family and renounce the other woman entirely, you're going to want to have the divorce process moving forward. After all, if the present situation is unacceptable, or her choosing to leave you for her will be unacceptable, then the only two end results will be divorce, or true reconciliation. Since the divorce process often takes a few months, why not get started with it while also sending the message that you're not a push-over who is going to let her walk all over you. This step demands respect.
> 
> As for the kids, they won't need to know anything, your wife doesn't have to move out (unless you she makes her decision to leave or you find out that she's still in contact with the OW) and her ability to parent the kids doesn't have to change at all. If asked why you got emergency temporary custody, I'd answer that it's because she has specifically said to you that she had planned to take the kids away to live with her and the other woman, and while she claims that the affair is over for now, she admits that she is still considering that option presently. Since her plan would be incredibly detrimental to the well being of your children, this order simply requires that they remain living at home under your temporary responsibility, since she's admitted to being willing to put them through a traumatic experience for her own gain.
> 
> To clarify, parents divorce all the time, and sometimes kids end up having to move out of their family home into the home of one spouse or the other, and sometimes that spouse has a new significant other that enters the living arrangement as well. It happens. However, when it is necessary, it should happen over a long period of time to allow the kids to adjust to each individual element of the break-up and new living arrangements, not in a blink of an eye as your wife seems willing to do.
> 
> It's sort of like saying, "Look, I don't trust you, and you know exactly why I can't trust you. You've also shared with me a plan you and your affair partner concocted that would cause great detrimental harm to our children, and admitted that you are still considering it. So in their best interest, I asked the court to temporarily give me the ability to prevent that from happening, should you choose that route."
> 
> I would also very much suggest getting the kids into see a child psychologist, and if possible, get his/her opinion on how your wife's plan might be detrimental to the children. That could help you in court if you need it.
> 
> The divorce process would likely give her several months or more to make a decision. Heck, it would probably give her enough time to make the decision and either prove to you to some degree that she's really committed to you and the marriage, or return to the OW and let the reality of real life with her settle in, including not having her kids living with her (thanks to the temporary court order), facing the guilt/shame of all of her friends and family finding out what she's done, and losing the sneaky/exciting element of the love affair while dealing with figuring out how to effectively separate laundry for two adult women in the same home. Then when the court date looms near, you can make a final decision on either going through with it, or withdrawing the petition altogether.
> 
> 
> Incidentally, I do have some experience with this option, as my wife and I went through an almost identical scenario as you and your wife, only my wife's affair was with an old man twice her age. (Not quite the same leap from a man to a woman, but a young, healthy mid-twenties white collar man to a short, balding, mid-fifties man with an $8/hr job and no home/car is still a pretty big leap) I found out about her plans to leave with our child, I filed for divorce and temporary custody immediately. Her thick affair fog and the sense of entitlement it carried sure made her angry as hell with me for doing so, but eventually she calmed down. It took a long time, but we reconciled just over two years ago.


Like I said....He cannot nice her back.

Another story of reconciliation by a man who took control and would not allow himself to be disrespected.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

I agree very much with CdBaker that you are in effect going about this in the wrong way. 

First, what she did is betrayal. Sexual orientation doesn't matter. She willingly and intentionally stepped outside her marriage to have an affair. The worst thing you can do in such a circumstance is try to accommodate her by waiting around while she decides what she wants. That makes it a hundred times easier for her to simply put you on the shelf, which she did already.

Second, and here I'm 100% with CdBaker, she threatened to take away your kids so that she and her lover could co-parent them. Why are you doing nothing about this? What if she decides without telling you, leaves and takes the kids with her? 

Your *supporting* of her is putting all the cards in her hands, and she can use them whenever she chooses. She isn't feeling any consequences for what she's done. Just the opposite: you are trying to "nice" your way back hoping that she's not a lesbian after all, but what you've done in fact is to enable her to continue to entertain the fairy tale ending.


----------



## cdbaker

Hicks said:


> You're making a very serious mistake. You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? *It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.*
> 
> You are allowing your wife to control the agenda and it will play out to her advantage. She will walk away with her divorce from you and she does not have to face herself as a bad person.
> 
> You should not "cede" this territory to her. The territory is you buying into her getting to decide if she is a lesbian or not. You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is " You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. *You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did"*. Repeat this in some way shape or form every time the discussion comes up. Never agree to let her think about what she is. She is a wife and a mother. She made her decision long ago. In your world people accept the decisions they make.
> 
> Now you may wonder why this is important. It is important because no man should ever be married to a woman who thinks she may be a lesbian. And no woman will ever be attracted to a man who will stay married to her while she gets to ponder whether she is a lesbian. No woman will ever be attracted to a man who KNOWS she is not a lesbian but he is tricked into allowing her to contemplate her sexuality.
> 
> Your marriage suffered a serious blow. It is improbable that it will recover. Not impossible but not highly probable. What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without your blessings.
> 
> And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.
> 
> Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
> -You know your wife is not a lesbian because you know your wife.
> - You don't stay married to women who don't want to be married to you.
> - You don't stay married to women who are not sure if they want to be married to you..
> - Divorce is a long process and not a one time event. I can file for divorce while giving my wife the choice to return into a marriage that is acceptable to me.
> - I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
> - Cheaters are horrible mothers and I will do everything in my power to protect my childen from destructive influences
> - I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.


:iagree:

All very true, especially the parts I bolded above. One thing to remember is that in nearly every affair, the cheating spouse has to find a way to try to deal with the guilt/shame of their actions. Typically this means they have to demonize someone or something. For instance, they "rewrite history" to make their marriage out to have been far worse than it really was. Or they demonize their spouse, making him or her out to be awful people. By convincing themselves that their marriage is doomed anyway, or that their spouse deserves it, they won't have to feel so bad about cheating. If their affair partner is also married, they'll have to demonize his/her spouse as well, wanting to hear that their marriage is also doomed, or that his/her spouse is a awful person who has neglected the AP. 

In your case, your wife can demonize the "unfortunate situation" that is her discovering her lesbianism this late after 20+ years of marriage. That way it's not really her fault, or your fault, it's her "genuine sexuality" that made her do what she did. After all, no one wants to accept the reality that they are just a bad person, that they are knowingly committing an egregious wrong and hurting the person they have committed to love and cherish. So they have to find ways to effectively fool themselves into believing otherwise. If she isn't actually a lesbian, then she's just a cheater, not victim, unless she then tried to shift the responsibility to you. So this is just one more reason she might want to believe she is a lesbian.

Incidentally, this can also make her treatment of you very disingenuous. What might appear to be her feeling guilt/shame over the acceptance of what she has done to you, or being more gracious towards you and helping you heal and rebuild trust for her betrayal, might actually just be her feeling sorry for you for being included in the "collateral damage" of her late onset lesbianism, for which she feels she has no control over and is not responsible for. Her words/actions could be very similar either way, but the reality is that she wouldn't be accepting or taking responsibility for her actions and showing genuine remorse, making this just another version of rug sweeping.


----------



## cdbaker

ButtPunch said:


> Another story of reconciliation by a man who took control and would not allow himself to be disrespected.


Haha, to clarify, I made all kinds of similar mistakes as the OP is now, before I got serious and took the legal steps. All I did was stretch out the pain/heartache for everyone involved, myself especially, and made things worse before they got better. Eventually it worked out, but had I listed more closely to some of the advice here, it probably would have been far quicker and smoother.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Hicks said:


> You're making a very serious mistake. You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. _*However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.*_
> 
> *You are allowing your wife to control the agenda and it will play out to her advantage. She will walk away with her divorce from you and she does not have to face herself as a bad person.*
> 
> You should not "cede" this territory to her. The territory is you buying into her getting to decide if she is a lesbian or not. You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is " You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did". Repeat this in some way shape or form every time the discussion comes up. Never agree to let her think about what she is. She is a wife and a mother. She made her decision long ago. In your world people accept the decisions they make.
> 
> Now you may wonder why this is important. It is important because no man should ever be married to a woman who thinks she may be a lesbian. And no woman will ever be attracted to a man who will stay married to her while she gets to ponder whether she is a lesbian. No woman will ever be attracted to a man who KNOWS she is not a lesbian but he is tricked into allowing her to contemplate her sexuality.
> 
> Your marriage suffered a serious blow. It is improbable that it will recover. Not impossible but not highly probable. What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without your blessings.
> 
> *And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. * By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.
> 
> Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
> -You know your wife is not a lesbian because you know your wife.
> - You don't stay married to women who don't want to be married to you.
> - You don't stay married to women who are not sure if they want to be married to you..
> - Divorce is a long process and not a one time event. I can file for divorce while giving my wife the choice to return into a marriage that is acceptable to me.
> - I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
> - Cheaters are horrible mothers and I will do everything in my power to protect my childen from destructive influences
> - I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.



Hicks has said things so much better than I, I'm going to do what cdbaker did and highlight yet more points that should hit you "like a diamond bullet in the middle of the forehead" as Marlon Brando once said.

Consider seriously that the rationalization process is in full swing with your wife, and lesbianism is the perfect excuse. It is on par with sayings such as "I'm just trying to find myself." This is in effect a far more effective and powerful version of that classic cheaters' cliche.


----------



## ButtPunch

cdbaker said:


> Haha, to clarify, I made all kinds of similar mistakes as the OP is now, before I got serious and took the legal steps. All I did was stretch out the pain/heartache for everyone involved, myself especially, and made things worse before they got better. Eventually it worked out, but had I listed more closely to some of the advice here, it probably would have been far quicker and smoother.


I was lucky I guess. I immediately followed Happyman, Conrad and a few other's advice. Glad I did and I wish more OP's would take the advice instead of learning the hard way.


----------



## ButtPunch

PreRaphaelite said:


> Hicks has said things so much better than I, I'm going to do what cdbaker did and highlight yet more points that should hit you "like a diamond bullet in the middle of the forehead" as Marlon Brando once said.
> 
> Consider seriously that the rationalization process is in full swing with your wife, and lesbianism is the perfect excuse. It is on par with sayings such as "I'm just trying to find myself." This is in effect a far more effective and powerful version of that classic cheaters' cliche.


Mine told me she wanted time to know if her feelings were real or not.

WTF?


----------



## cdbaker

ButtPunch said:


> Mine told me she wanted time to know if her feelings were real or not.
> 
> WTF?


Haha, that's when you let her know that the fine state of [Your state] will permit her roughly 2-6 months (or however many it takes in your state) to consider anything she likes. In the meantime, your feelings are quite clear.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> So funny/horribly painful story. Today my wife and I went and had lunch and played tennis just to try and get some quality time in. She actually took off work a half day surprising me to do it (so some effort on her part without request - a good sign right?).
> 
> So when you play tennis, a typically way to decide who serves first is you spin the racquet handle in your hand. Typically there is a letter on the end of the handle and this action spins the letter around. The spinner stops and the other person guesses which direction the letter faces. Wilson racquets for a W on the handle so when spun, it's either an M or a W (follow). If the person guessing gets it right, they serve first. Well Prince racquets have a P or a D.
> 
> So I spin the racquet and yell -"What do you want P or D?" I notice the P or D initials as soon as the words left my mouth (if you can't figure it out they are the initials for d*ck and (p*ssy) So not thinking she just yells P before she grasps the significance of her choice. I visibly deflate and she utters an uncomfortable chuckle "well I didn't mean.." MY response is "well, thats really the story of my life right now - P or D! Leave out the emotion and that's what it comes down to. What do you want, 20 more years of P or 20 of D?" It was a joke at the time and we actually kinda laughed about it.
> 
> But the significance of the question stuck with me and I actually brought it up later. I think she was taken aback by the thought somewhat. In general, what is she attracted to - male or females? Can she be with woman physically the rest of her life? I think she is factoring new lala land emotion into this far too much and I really believe that without the emotion she's going to choice the D. Given a choice of Brad Pitt or Angelina, she's going with Brad every time. At least in my experience. So while this escape was maybe what she thought she needed at the time, long term, I really don't think P is what she wants.
> 
> I think the answer to the P or D question is the pivotal issue here. Once she decides what she really feels in her heart, it really will eliminate the other option. It's not really which is the better option (unless she is truly bisexual), it's really which set of gear does she wants for the next 20 years. Then the rest is just reconciling or divorce. I'm can do either given those circumstances.
> 
> We'll see - She's got an individual counselor appt as well to discuss the sexuality issue privately although it will come up during our couples session.


You know, it's probably good you weren't playing with Wilson tennis racquets since you would end up with either a W(oman) or a M(an).

You're giving her way too much power in all this. Don't you think it's about time to initiate the divorce proceedings and put her on the clock? You and your family deserves to know whether she's in or out. She's been allowed to live life on her terms for WAY TOO LONG now, and when she had to actually put her dreams behind her for the sake of the family...she folds like a cheap tent. When do you demand that your wife finally GROWS UP. 

You know your wife knows her preferences sexually. There IS no confusion here. She either always preferred women and lied to you about it, she always preferred men and is using this charade as an excuse for more "me time" or she is in fact bisexual where in the end you SHOULD be the primary option unless she completely and utterly lost her love and attraction to you for good. 

The "what is my sexuality" quandry is a red herring. She KNOWS what she prefers. It's long overdue for some real honesty from her - and for her to GROW UP!


----------



## ButtPunch

cdbaker said:


> Haha, that's when you let her know that the fine state of [Your state] will permit her roughly 2-6 months (or however many it takes in your state) to consider anything she likes. In the meantime, your feelings are quite clear.


My exact words were "Have you lost your f'ng mind?"


----------



## bfree

Rose, I'm going to agree with HM with one major difference. I think that people will turn to others of the same sex to fill a need if someone else is not available. As you have already correctly stated in general sex is a man's primary need. If a woman is not really available many men will turn to another man to meet that need. This happens frequently in prison. In years past it was quite common for male students to turn to other male students when attending all boys schools. Even further back during Shakespearean times actors would routinely engage in sexual relations with other male actors since women were not allowed to participate in the theater. These men and boys were not homosexual nor were they bisexual. They identified as heterosexual and this male/male sexual behavior was not repeated. Women tend to need emotional support more so than sex so I believe it is completely understandable if a woman would turn to another woman for emotional support. It is widely accepted that for a woman sex follows a strong emotional connection so I do not find it odd that a female/female relationship would follow that path.

But you counter that argument with your claim that bff's don't just start having sex. And you're right but here is where your argument breaks down. It is presumed that both bff's identify as heterosexual therefore it would take a huge leap from BOTH in order for the relationship to turn sexual. Even in bff relationships where one is bisexual or lesbian there are boundaries in place based on mutual respect for the friendship. In this case I don't believe those boundaries ever existed. The OW is an experienced confirmed lesbian who I believe looked for an opportunity to turn the friendship sexual using the OP's wife's insecurities and confusion. Many will say that she allowed it to happen. And they're right. But I have seen experienced PUA's land women that I never thought would cheat by playing on just the right vulnerabilities. This is why I feel so strongly that the OP needs to verify that the affair is truly over and no contact is occurring. His wife needs to purge the fantasy affair feelings so she can make a rational informed decision about her sexuality and what she wants going forward. Then if she decides she truly wants a relationship with another female they can work out an amicable split that disrupts the children's lives as little as possible.


----------



## LongWalk

There is a thread "Is there any hope" by Unsure, whose wife moved OW into their household. Unsure has gone through Hell with his wife and OW playing with his mind. 

They even had a threesome once to win some approval of OW moving in, but it was bait and switch.

There was a guy whose wife started cheating with her personal trainer. She moved out as soon as he busted her.

Being resolute is the best way to show her the fork in the road.


----------



## RoseAglow

bfree, I grant that men will often turn to other men for sex in truly dire straits like prison. I haven't seen any stats or papers to know, but my suspicion is if they ever get out of prison, the men who came in straight will go back and look for heterosexual relationships. I'll have to look it up.

I'd challenge your theory about actors; I think it's fair to say that even today the arts draws a larger proportion of homosexual men and it is only in very recent history that it was "safe" for them to come out. But even your theory is true, you indicate that the reason for the temporary behavior is a lack of available women.

I believe it is more common for boys and girls in same-sex schools to experiment homosexually. Even still, not all students will do this and fair number of those who do will go on to self-identify as homosexual. I strongly suspect that the kids who fall in love with someone their own sex will be the ones who identify as bi or gay. Do you think otherwise? 

In the adult open world of free choice- the one in which the OP and his wife live- people who have homosexual relationships are considered homosexual. Maybe bi but again, by definition, being bi means that the person has physical and emotional attraction to the same sex.

I have zero doubt that the WW fell in love with the AP because the AP met her emotional needs. That's how love works. But it wouldn't have worked unless the WW is at least bi, or else all of us with very tight friends would be leaving our men for them. 

I would be curious to know what the success rate for busting up these kinds of affairs are and how many couples successfully reconcile. More to research....


----------



## bfree

RoseAglow said:


> bfree, I grant that men will often turn to other men for sex in truly dire straits like prison. I haven't seen any stats or papers to know, but my suspicion is if they ever get out of prison, the men who came in straight will go back and look for heterosexual relationships. I'll have to look it up.
> 
> I'd challenge your theory about actors; I think it's fair to say that even today the arts draws a larger proportion of homosexual men and it is only in very recent history that it was "safe" for them to come out. But even your theory is true, you indicate that the reason for the temporary behavior is a lack of available women.
> 
> I believe it is more common for boys and girls in same-sex schools to experiment homosexually. Even still, not all students will do this and fair number of those who do will go on to self-identify as homosexual. I strongly suspect that the kids who fall in love with someone their own sex will be the ones who identify as bi or gay. Do you think otherwise?
> 
> In the adult open world of free choice- the one in which the OP and his wife live- people who have homosexual relationships are considered homosexual. Maybe bi but again, by definition, being bi means that the person has physical and emotional attraction to the same sex.
> 
> I have zero doubt that the WW fell in love with the AP because the AP met her emotional needs. That's how love works. But it wouldn't have worked unless the WW is at least bi, or else all of us with very tight friends would be leaving our men for them.
> 
> I would be curious to know what the success rate for busting up these kinds of affairs are and how many couples successfully reconcile. More to research....


So then we agree that someone who identifies as heterosexual can in fact have a homosexual relationship without changing their sexual orientation. I submit that just as a PUA can manipulate a woman using her vulnerabilities and insecurities so then can a lesbian groom a wife for an otherwise unforseen tryst.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> It's important to know how your sex life was before, during and after the affair stopped? Normally it will change. Hysterical bonding during reconciliation is normal.


Excellent before affair. Stopped during (4 month), but things were pretty strained at that point anyway, so while it was weird, it wasn't unexpected. We weren't clicking at any level. Well she was discovered last week, so none since either due to her being on the fence. She is conflicted between two loves and highly emotional.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Hicks said:


> You're making a very serious mistake. You have 20 years of direct knowledge that she is not a lesbian. However, it is highly probably that she will deem herself a lesbian and her counselor will support this. Why? It will make her feel like less of a terrible person.
> 
> You are allowing your wife to control the agenda and it will play out to her advantage. She will walk away with her divorce from you and she does not have to face herself as a bad person.
> 
> You should not "cede" this territory to her. The territory is you buying into her getting to decide if she is a lesbian or not. You should tell her what YOU KNOW and what YOU KNOW SHE KNOWS. What is this? It is " You are not a lesbian. You cheated because you are selfish and your life was not going your way. You are only using Potential Lesbianism to make yourself feel better about what you did". Repeat this in some way shape or form every time the discussion comes up. Never agree to let her think about what she is. She is a wife and a mother. She made her decision long ago. In your world people accept the decisions they make.
> 
> Now you may wonder why this is important. It is important because no man should ever be married to a woman who thinks she may be a lesbian. And no woman will ever be attracted to a man who will stay married to her while she gets to ponder whether she is a lesbian. No woman will ever be attracted to a man who KNOWS she is not a lesbian but he is tricked into allowing her to contemplate her sexuality.
> 
> Your marriage suffered a serious blow. It is improbable that it will recover. Not impossible but not highly probable. What you need to do is be the man that your woman wants to be married to and demonstrate the life you will provide her versus the life she will have without your blessings.
> 
> And it's so very important to operate not from a place of fear but a place of knowing that your marriage has very little chance to survive, and that you must revert to acting on and holding to your personal values. By acting and deciding based on your personal opinions and values, you may not get the end result you want, but at least you had a roadmap to follow.
> 
> Value / Beliefs ( you should make your own list) :
> -You know your wife is not a lesbian because you know your wife.
> - You don't stay married to women who don't want to be married to you.
> - You don't stay married to women who are not sure if they want to be married to you..
> - Divorce is a long process and not a one time event. I can file for divorce while giving my wife the choice to return into a marriage that is acceptable to me.
> - I use counseling to talk about how we can build a mutually fulfilling marital life and expect my wife to do the same
> - Cheaters are horrible mothers and I will do everything in my power to protect my childen from destructive influences
> - I will lay out the vision of marriage and family that I want and allow my wife to choose what she wants.


You make some good points - particularly the values section. I need to ponder these a bit.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> Your whole world is already turned upside down. You are trying to hang on to what you used to have. That is gone.


That very well may be. But I think I'd like to hang on a bit more just to see. Worth the risk I think.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> Rose--*the ex-H doesn't take the break-up personally and is comfortable hanging out.*
> 
> I think this is the best outcome. Nothing taken personally, the wife sincerely sorry for the deceit of the affair, the husband understanding her confusion and not taking her acceptance of her sexuality as some sort of statement about him.
> 
> I agree with Rose that heterosexual women do not have affairs with other women. I do think you are in denial about that, OP. If your wife had a physical relationship with that other gal, she is bisexual.
> 
> Heterosexual women turn to other women for emotional support all the time. We talk to each other, listen to each other, give a hug when someone is crying. We don't French kiss and touch each other's genitals.
> 
> Maybe the best course at this point is to relax and give your relationship some time. At least you are not bitter; that is a real trap in this sort of situation. You seem to be doing very well, actually. You seem intelligent and mature, and I am sure your wife appreciates that.
> 
> So, I would say settle down, let the counselor help you and your wife, continue being open and honest with her, and encourage her to do the same. Commit to a fair split of assets if she eventually decides to follow the other side of her sexuality. Commit to the most reasonably good plan for the kids, if it comes to that.
> 
> It could be worse. She could have a terminal illness. You would all lose her. Even if she decides to go with the other woman, you could still be friends, and your kids would still have their mom. There is that to be grateful for.


I think you could be right. Thanks for the positive potential outlook of the negative scenario. Let me ask you this - could the physical relationship be explained by extreme depression and identity crisis "solved" by the love of another woman? "I feel better now, maybe this is who I am?" I guess it's bixsexual either way. But is that a deal-breaker for my marriage if we eventually chooses to reconcile and restrengthen our marriage? Can a bisexual be in a loving committed marriage after this?


----------



## FamilyMan15

LongWalk said:


> Follow Punch's advice.
> 
> As long as you are available she can go on guessing about the life behind doors unopened. Let her know you are not behind one of the doors at all and she may quit playing around.


I don't think she is playing around. I can see her distress and confusion.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> You are now in full rug sweep mode. What you just said is exactly what most cheaters try to get their betrayed spouse to say. It is right out of the cheaters script. First she has you calling it a mistake, when in fact it was a decision. Second, you cannot really plan your future if you only look forward without addressing her decision to cheat. “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”- Sir Winston Churchill


What I mean my not focusing on the mistakes is that first she has to commit to us, then we deal with recovering from the mistakes. And she does freely admit it was a mistake. but here we are.


----------



## GusPolinski

FamilyMan15 said:


> I think you could be right. Thanks for the positive potential outlook of the negative scenario. Let me ask you this - could the physical relationship be explained by extreme depression and identity crisis "solved" by the love of another woman? "I feel better now, maybe this is who I am?" I guess it's bixsexual either way. But is that a deal-breaker for my marriage if we eventually chooses to reconcile and restrengthen our marriage? Can a bisexual be in a loving committed marriage after this?


There are plenty of bisexual folks out there in loving, committed, and _monogamous_ marriages w/ spouses of the opposite sex. Hell, there are a handful of them here on TAM.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Oh yeah! They are both in La La land. There is forbidden fruit in this relationship.
> 
> Mid Life crisis mixed in with a woman in her early 40's having an identity crisis.
> 
> Throw in 2 kids from a straight couple and the kids will be confused for a while. Add a third kid from the gay couple and long term mess just begins.
> 
> My advice stays the same.
> 
> Focus on you. Be strong. Be confident.
> 
> And if the OW makes contact or interferes you get involved and tell her to backoff.
> 
> The decision to stay or go may be your wifes.
> 
> The decision to R your marriage is truly yours.
> 
> Your wifes sexual identity is her issue to deal with. I really do not think that is the main issue here.
> 
> And her decision making process is a mess right now. She has made some bad decisions recently so encourage her to think this out.
> 
> Her relationship with the OW is doomed. They just dont know it.
> 
> Keep the focus on you.
> 
> HM


I agree with all this. How do I keep the focus on me?


----------



## FamilyMan15

Kevinb said:


> I really wish you well and hope that things work out for the best for you and your wife. I just can't but help but feel that you are hanging onto threads of hope and just taking in the posts that suit you.
> 
> You don't sound like you have ever got ANGRY about this. I don't think you have ever confronted the other woman and asked her WTF is this all about!
> 
> I don't know, but do you think your wife would respect you more if you took the reigns more and if you did, how would it make the situation worse?
> 
> I know you're scared that you may push her away...but really she's kinda gone now and really only wants to stay for the comfort of being in a "family". Is this what you want?
> 
> I don't think you're a weak man but it certainly is coming across that way and hey...I Don't blame you I understand that you are desperate to keep this thing together.
> 
> Perhaps she needs you to take a more definite stance and she has to live the outcome of her consequence before she realises what she has lost and if she doesn't ...you're in a no worse position than you are now.
> 
> The way you come across to me is " maybe" how she sees you...a little weak.
> 
> Good luck with it Mate


I'm clearly hanging on to threads of hope here, but I'm just not quite ready to throw away 20 years just because I'm pissed. Frankly I'm trying to keep my emotions just enough under control to not drive the last nail in the coffin. We are probably done for, but I want to at least give it a last chance before I call it quits. You might call it weak, but to me, it's fighting for my family. I'm 100% certain that kicking her to the curb to "figure it out" would result in her leaving us for a time while everything is rosy, breaking up the family and her figuring it out in a year after all damage is done. Ultimatums almost always backfire unless you are in the position of power, which I am not.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> RoseAglow
> FM has his wife at home. She has stopped the lies and cheating as far as he can verify. His wife is in IC.
> 
> She needs it. SHe obviously needs him or she would not be at home with him.
> 
> She knows she made bad decisions which has hurt him and their marriage. That is good that she understands this.
> 
> Whether she decides to live the gay lifestyle or not is secondary to her living a life without lies and deceit.
> 
> Secondary to raising her children.
> 
> Secondary to honoring her vows that she entered with FM.
> 
> He is giving her the chance to make it right. Not all spouses offer a 2nd chance.
> 
> If she decides to R then she will need to face the consequences for her bad decision.
> 
> And any woman who married a man and had kids is not gay.
> 
> FM is hoping she reaches this conclusion as well. I am too.
> 
> HM


That's pretty much it in a nutshell.


----------



## tom67

Familyman get these 2 books.
She HAS to see/perceive you are ready to move on.
Do women hit on you?
Anyway here
Books by Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Read the black parts


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> I think you could be right. Thanks for the positive potential outlook of the negative scenario. Let me ask you this - could the physical relationship be explained by extreme depression and identity crisis "solved" by the love of another woman? "I feel better now, maybe this is who I am?" I guess it's bixsexual either way. But is that a deal-breaker for my marriage if we eventually chooses to reconcile and restrengthen our marriage? Can a bisexual be in a loving committed marriage after this?


The thought of a physical relationship with another woman is completely unappealing to me, so no, I don't agree with anybody here who is trying to make like this is normal heterosexual female behavior. It's not.

Again, hetero women give each other emotional support all the time. We talk, talk, talk. We give a hug and squeeze a hand._ We don't French kiss and touch genitals._

Rose probably gave the best advice when she told you that you two would have to have strong boundaries that would not allow her to get close to another female. But do you really want those worries? Do you want to even think of policing your wife? 

If my husband did what your wife did, I would just be done. The minute I would find out, it would just be over. My husband with another man? Could never be in my bed again. Friend-zoned for the rest of his life.

But maybe men see it differently? It is obviously not a dealbreaker for you.

And did Faithful Wife ever get back to you?


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> Right now, he doesn't want to go to divorce. He wants to try to keep his marriage and his family together.
> ..
> I do agree that since she is home with you and has (at least purportedly) cut off the AP, she is struggling. She is not convinced that being in a homosexual relationship will provide her with full happiness.
> ..
> It sounds like they had a pretty good marriage with a few rough spots prior to the affair; I hope the wife also comes to the conclusion that the marriage is the best option. I am generally pro-marriage. She might be gay but she also has a love for men, obviously. If the husband can meet her needs, she can find happiness there.
> ...
> I just think that she will more moves towards the choice of staying with him in a hetero relationship if he is supportive. I think doing the "fence knocking" is incredibly counter-productive in this instance.


My thoughts as well. As much as I don't like it and as angry as I am, I don't see a better course that ends in reconciliation. You may think that isn't the best outcome based on your experience, but that is what I want to fight for. If she truly is gay, so be it, I'll support her it taking that step and we'll figure out how to settle things amicably. But I know for many many years, she was happy with all aspects of our relationship. Whatever "label" she is, I at least know that part to be true. That's the part I'm hanging on to I guess. If we were that happy, I believe we can do it again. Regardless of her label.


----------



## FamilyMan15

badmemory said:


> No you don't.
> 
> And if you do, you're approaching R the wrong way; driven by your fear of divorce.
> 
> There has to be a step by step approach by the BS to have a successful R. You can't skip the first step. The step where you accept nothing less than your wife having the motivation to move mountains to demonstrate her remorse and help you heal. Where she understands that her A, her own actions, have to be dealt with by you *FIRST.*
> 
> If she responds like she needs to, then the healing process can begin and *THEN*, you can start working on the marital issues.
> 
> Don't skip that first step familyman. Even if she agrees to attempt R, you'll regret it if you do.


I agree 100%. We aren't there yet. There can't be reconciliation until she is 100% ready to commit.


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> You might call it weak, but to me, it's fighting for my family. I'm 100% certain that kicking her to the curb to "figure it out" would result in her leaving us for a time while everything is rosy, breaking up the family and her figuring it out in a year after all damage is done. Ultimatums almost always backfire unless you are in the position of power, which I am not.



You are an intelligent man, OP. You are also one of the strongest men I have seen come to CWI. No silly power grabs from you. You are acting out of maturity and compassion.

And you are realistic about your level of power in the marriage.


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> So far, he wants to save his marriage. IMO he has the right to leave at any time, after reconciliation or otherwise, if it turns out that he can't stomach being with a cheater.
> ...
> I have to go back and look. It seems like she has been transparent with him, but not remorseful. Of course she's not remorseful at this time, she is trying to figure out if she would be better off in a homosexual relationship. She might get to remorse later on if she concludes that it's better to keep the heterosexual relationship and they are able to successful reconcile; at that point she might be remorseful and horrified that she almost lost her marriage.


Just to be clear, I am angry. I am furious. I just don't think expressing that now would help reconciliation. She is remorseful (sorry for the pain, it was a huge mistake, she she have done things differently) etc. but she's still "in love" with two people because of those mistakes. That's where she is. She's hugely conflicted with what she did vs. what she is "because of it" vs. the pain she's causing us and potentially will cause us. Honestly, she's an emotional mess right now. If this was a calculated plan or she was really sure, she would just pick a path and do it. She is that kind of person.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> Rose
> 
> OP Doesn't know what he wants. He can't think clearly because of the shock he has experienced. I know this feeling. He is making decisions based purely on the fear of divorce and the effect he thinks it will have on his family and kids.
> 
> He hasn't had time to accept what has happened. He is at the save the marriage at all cost stage. He needs to regain his sense of self and see her for what she truly is and right now that is an unremorseful cheater.


I think this is probably true.


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> I can agree with all of this. I would just add that in addition to being an unremorseful cheater, she is also struggling with her sexualitly identity. And to me, that changes how he should handle this.
> 
> I agree that he needs to regain his sense of self- it is critically important that he finds a way to do so.
> 
> And, I think that if he continues to want to stay with his wife, he has to avoid the "Kick Her Out and Make Her Choose" camp and instead move into "I will help you figure this out" camp.
> 
> She is bi and so she can have her needs met by a man or a woman. Like most human beings, she will go towards the person who best meets her emotional needs. If they can get to a place where their needs are met AND they have strong boundaries, strong marital protection, I think they can find success. But she has to find her way there first.


This is exactly how I feel. But is there any chance of success here? Clearly she has found someone tha,t at least in this lala land stage, she thinks meets her needs better than me (even though I believe comparing the first 3 months of a relationship to the 19th year isn't a fair comparison - they feel totally different but I'd take the 19th year personally)


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> She is bi and so she can have her needs met by a man or a woman. Like most human beings, she will go towards the person who best meets her emotional needs. If they can get to a place where their needs are met AND they have strong boundaries, strong marital protection, I think they can find success. *But she has to find her way there first.*


How does she find her way there first? Space and time to think? Experimenting and see what feels right? Talking to a professional?

That's the bottom line here. How do we get past this first hurdle?


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> He needs to be in the "Move On With MY Life Camp"


Honestly, it's probably a 80% chance of this happening sooner than later. I can't do this forever.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr.Fisty said:


> I say for the moment familyman, start detaching and find ways to improve yourself and your life.
> ...
> If she is more fulfilled being with a woman, but decides to come back for the children, could you live with that? That is another possibility to consider, or would you want her and yourself to be in a fulfilling relationship?


That's my plan personal - focus on improving me. That can only have positive outcomes regardless of what happens.

Nope - I'd want her to with a woman if that is TRULY what she wants. I think because of the perfect storm of crisis that she has gone through, she doesn't know what she wants/is in a fog and I am willing to give her some small latitude (as painful as it is) to figure it out before giving up on everything.

and No, kicking her out won't clear the fog, it will just prove that the OW is the better match emotionally.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Rose
> 
> What makes you think she is in love with the OW?
> 
> If she truly was she would never have moved home.
> 
> She has doubts. She has reservations.
> 
> She needs to know what the OW is to her.
> 
> Time will tell. Most likely not to be measured in days but weeks and/or months.
> 
> HM


Yes - selfish I agree. but also also emotionally injured.

But I agree with everything else. When I ask my wife if she loves the OW, she says "I think so, I just don't know" Her being here and cutting off contact with the OW has to count for something. Maybe she wants to "make sure" while living here just protect the kids from unnecessary damage, but never the less, she's certainly not sure what she feels. I firmly believe she won't stay just for the kids. This will have to be the life she wants for her to stay. She's told me that clearly.


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> "You will have a better life with me. You will keep your family. You will wake up every day with your children until they are grown. You will have every holiday with them. AND, I can meet your needs better- in fact I can meet them so well that you will be madly in love with me, just like before. You know I can, I've already done it. I can be your rock.
> 
> I am WILLING to do this IF you completely break off the affair, IF you agree to commit to our relationship. IF you agree that together we need to establish very strong boundaries so that this can never happen again. You are attracted to women AND men so you have to be willing to commit to me, and to avoid situations where another person can start to meet your needs. I will be your best friend, talk to me about all your important items. I will be the one who you want to spend the most time with. We will go over and enact really strong boundaries so that our marriage is safe and secure."
> 
> "I can still love you better, I can give you an amazing life and you know it. I am a known quantity. I will not let it get back to what it was, if YOU don't let it get back there either."


This is really good. Thanks. I think I will use that.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

What does she say was the cause for her developing feelings for the OW?

I can't shake it, but what does she say about those years she turned her back on you and the family for the sake of her career? I'll be honest here, but it's my belief that the more you can figure out about why her career took priority over everyone in her family will probably yield more answers than trying to figure out why she chose a woman to have an affair with. 

Am I wrong or did your marriage not take a serious blow shortly after losing her preferred career and had to deal with "just a job" - but knowing that this job made it possible for her to spend more time with the family?


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> She is home so he has the availability every day to show him what she could opt to miss out on. He should work on being Awesome for himself. He can invite her to do things but still do them if she declines. He can be Super Dad- family is so, so important to most women and it is his strongest card. If he is a good dad (and he sure sounds like one) NO ONE can love her children like he will. He can Get a Life while inviting her to join him. If he does this, he will show BOTH of them that he can in fact have a great life with or without her.


This is my plan right now.


----------



## the guy

FamilyMan15 said:


> Where do we go from here? How do we rebuild our relationship? How do we recover from the affair?


I'm 5yrs into a healthy R and my only suggestion to you is to have lots of sex.

Sorry man but you both need to share some really good orgasms together.

I truly believe sex is the glue!

Have you both start what is called hysterical bonding?


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> This is my plan right now.


Did you ever ask her if she was more attracted to women? Did you ask her if she felt that having sex with a man was a difficult chore, but not what she prefers to do?

Where is her honesty? You cannot tell me that she has no clue if she found women attractive and sexually desirable since the time she first hit puberty. She knows if she did or did not. The only person in the dark on this is you.


----------



## convert

the guy said:


> I'm 5yrs into a healthy R and my only suggestion to you is to have lots of sex.
> 
> Sorry man but you both need to share some really good orgasms together.
> 
> I truly believe sex is the glue!
> 
> Have you both start what is called hysterical bonding?


:iagree:


and it can't hurt....

well maybe a little


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> I really get the feeling that she's not a lesbian, she just found in the OW someone who was willing to step in and serve as her emotional support at a time when she didn't feel like she had that at home with you. I don't think she's attracted to women, so much as she is attracted to the OW as a person, the emotional support and love that she received from her. I think you've mentioned it already, but I agree that I think in time if she were to commit to her long term that it would probably fade and end poorly, as real life enters the picture and the sneaky cheating "honeymoon" period of excitement ends.


I think this is exactly what happened. In our conversations, it's all about THIS woman vs. women in general. I think in the end, she THINKS she could be happy with either, so labels don't really matter at this point.

While I agree with some of the divorce proceedings advice in principal, in this case, with this person, there is 0% that would end with reconciliation. Then it just becomes about who wins. That may come in due time, but it's when reconciliation is clearly not going to happen or she chooses the other woman. With her, it's not going to snap her out of the fog, its just going to strengthen her resolve.


----------



## the guy

Having been there...your best bet is to be confident...chicks dig confident guys.
So please do your self a favor and raise that attraction level by being confident enough to show her you got the good stuff.

If she want to save the family unit she is going have to take some penis...and that's when you better be on top of your game.....at any time in your life your gotta be on top of your game.

You need to phuck the lesbian right out of her!


----------



## FamilyMan15

harrybrown said:


> So if you have an A, she would be able to handle it?
> 
> Because she expects you to let her choose, you should be making a choice.
> 
> You can't control her, but you can control the results of her actions.
> 
> She sure does not seem to respect you.
> 
> Sorry.


of course she don't respect me. she never would have done this is she had. 4 years of marriage decline took care of that. The OW replaced me as the go to person. But she does say (and I truly believe that she means it) that she loves me. and respect can be regained.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> Haha, to clarify, I made all kinds of similar mistakes as the OP is now, before I got serious and took the legal steps. All I did was stretch out the pain/heartache for everyone involved, myself especially, and made things worse before they got better. Eventually it worked out, but had I listed more closely to some of the advice here, it probably would have been far quicker and smoother.


This is probably the likely outcome. I agree. But I guess it's worth the extra pain and heartache to be sure.


----------



## jld

the guy said:


> You need to phuck the lesbian right out of her!


I don't think it works that way.


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> But you counter that argument with your claim that bff's don't just start having sex. And you're right but here is where your argument breaks down. It is presumed that both bff's identify as heterosexual therefore it would take a huge leap from BOTH in order for the relationship to turn sexual. Even in bff relationships where one is bisexual or lesbian there are boundaries in place based on mutual respect for the friendship. *In this case I don't believe those boundaries ever existed. The OW is an experienced confirmed lesbian who I believe looked for an opportunity to turn the friendship sexual using the OP's wife's insecurities and confusion. Many will say that she allowed it to happen. And they're right. But I have seen experienced PUA's land women that I never thought would cheat by playing on just the right vulnerabilities. *This is why I feel so strongly that the OP needs to verify that the affair is truly over and no contact is occurring. His wife needs to purge the fantasy affair feelings so she can make a rational informed decision about her sexuality and what she wants going forward. Then if she decides she truly wants a relationship with another female they can work out an amicable split that disrupts the children's lives as little as possible.


That is a great point. I think that is exactly what happened and the following section is exactly what I am trying to do. Thanks for hitting the nail on the head. I think adding an aggressive+emotionally needy lesbian to the mix changes everything. Obviously my wife was a party to it.


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> I would be curious to know what the success rate for busting up these kinds of affairs are and how many couples successfully reconcile. More to research....


Curious as well. Tough to get stats on this I imagine as not too many married women would report having a lesbian affair that their marriage recovered from. I think that would be a dark spot that they would just want to forget and probably be embarrassed of. All you would find that would stand to be counted would be all the lesbians to left their husbands and it worked out well (and clearly that happens often enough). It like looking at all the 90 year olds that drink and smoke every day and think that they are doing something right. But they aren't - the 95% of everyone else who did the same you can't count because they are all dead.


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> So then we agree that someone who identifies as heterosexual can in fact have a homosexual relationship without changing their sexual orientation. I submit that just as a PUA can manipulate a woman using her vulnerabilities and insecurities so then can a lesbian groom a wife for an otherwise unforseen tryst.


Right.


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> I agree with all this. How do I keep the focus on me?


Hey FM, have you considered a timeline or time limit yet on how long you are willing to wait for an answer from her ? If you siad it before, I apologize for missing i and I feel badly you are going through what you are


----------



## the guy

I got lucky and avoided a lot off the limbo crap many have been dealt. I just never say rewarding my old lady for betraying me by being so ......sensitive to her lies.....I was phucking hurt and I wanted no part of waiting to see if my old lady wanted me or not.

You either do or you don't..."I just caught you screwing around behind my back now you want me to wait on your deceitful @ss?" 

The questions is gentlemen...."do I want to keep you around while the knife wound in my back heals?"

FM15, your old lady is going to screw around on you again. She might be good for a few yrs but you are telling her she can get away with the lies and deceit....and it's just a matter of time ...when the kids get older she will start screwing around again.

The way I read it is every time she cheats you start treating her like she wants to be treated, not how she needs to be treated.

IDK, I'm wired different then most. Once you get walked on enough you start to command respect instead of *asking* for respect!


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> You are an intelligent man, OP. You are also one of the strongest men I have seen come to CWI. No silly power grabs from you. You are acting out of maturity and compassion.
> 
> And you are realistic about your level of power in the marriage.


Power plays just aren't a good solution. My wife and I used to have a great relationship for many years because we always put each other first. It was only when we neglected that and we tried to control each other did things fall apart. That's a large part of why we are here. 

I really think I just need to give her a reasonable amount of time to think this through. If she commits, we both know what we did wrong and can be better for it. We just need to get back to putting each other first. Once she shakes this doubt she is feeling and is ready to commit, I believe the harsh reality of what she did will set in and then we can focus on recovery.


----------



## RoseAglow

OK, so I did a little bit of arm-chair internet research. I couldn't find anything other than forum posts or one-off newspaper articles searching for "Wife left for another woman ("Mrs Miller left her husband for another woman!" type things)". I found some success using "Women Leaving Men for Lesbian Relationships."

The OP's WW is far from the only woman who found herself attracted to women later in life. The American Psychological Association is starting to do more research on "Late Blooming Lesbians- women who have switched their sexuality after age 30." The current buzzword to describe the phenomenon of women moving into lesbianism later in life is "Sexual Fluidity." 

One of the researchers describes it like this:
_Diamond has a hunch that the possibility of moving across sexual boundaries increases as people age. "What we know about adult development," she says, "suggests that people become more expansive in a number of ways as they get older . . . I think a lot of women, late in life, when they're no longer worried about raising the kids, and when they're looking back on their marriage and how satisfying it is, find an opportunity to take a second look at what they want and feel like." This doesn't mean that women are choosing whether to be gay or straight, she clarifies. (Diamond's work has sometimes been distorted by rightwing factions in the US, who have suggested it shows homosexuality is optional.) "Every one of the women I studied who underwent a transition experienced it as being out of her control. It was not a conscious choice . . . I think the culture tends to lump together change and choice, as if they're the same phenomenon, but they're not. Puberty involves a heck of a lot of change, but you don't choose it. There are life-course transitions that are beyond our control...

...In my study, what I often found was that women who may have always thought that other women were beautiful and attractive would, at some point later in life, actually fall in love with a woman, and that experience vaulted those attractions from something minor to something hugely significant. It wasn't that they'd been repressing their true selves before; it was that without the context of an actual relationship, the little glimmers of occasional fantasies or feelings just weren't that significant."_

It is definitely happening, but it's not happening to all women:
_"People always ask me if this research means everyone is bisexual. No, it doesn't," says Lisa Diamond, Ph.D, associate professor of psychology and gender studies at the University of Utah and author of the 2008 book "Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women's Love and Desire." _


You describe that your wife is struggling. She might be struggling like any normal WW. I believe that there is an extra angle/layer, as described here:

_Christian Moran, who conducted the studies at the Southern Connecticut State University, found that many women initially go through what is effectively psychological trauma as they try to reconcile their loyalties to their families with their attraction to other women....

Ultimately, no research in the world can prove conclusively why some women have lesbian encounters in later life while millions of others go through a lifetime without the slightest attraction to another woman.

But for those who do discover latent tendencies in middle age, the turmoil it can cause to their families is often every bit as hard for them to confront as their own hidden desires. _


I put the links to the excerpts above at the bottom this post. The articles talk almost entirely about women who self-identified as straight for most of their lives and left for a woman, and never went back to heterosexual relationships. There is one woman who had a lesbian fling for a few weeks but then went back to dating men; she is the only one in these articles. However, the research was on people who came to self-identify as lesbian, not bi or unsure. 

I tried to find articles on "late bloomers" who returned to their heterosexual marriage but didn't find any- likely there's not much funding in that. I do know that the tendency for bi women to leave their gay lover and go (back?) to men was a common lament way back in my college days; I have to think that it happens when women get older too.

FM, I posted this because wanted to take a look at what was out there. I'm a woman and it is obvious to me that it is very possible for your wife to find herself attracted to woman and moving along the sexual spectrum, even at a later age. I've seen it happen to women I know. It happened to your own wife. 

One of the article talks to a researcher who says that men have some sexual fluidity by it is very limited. He says that men tend to have "preferred sex" and "non-preferred sex". If this is the case then it is understandable to me that men might have a hard believing it is possible. 

It has been my contention that her cheating with/ falling for a same-sex AP only really matters in relation to how you might successfully bring her back into the marriage. I feel this even more strongly, especially after reading the research, as limited as it is. 

If your wife is on the fence, as it seems, I think you are much better off putting up a very persuasive argument rather telling her, "You're in or you're Out. Pick P or D." 

If she comes to believe that she prefers P, it is something that is hers alone and really has nothing to do with you. Throwing her or leaving her on her own emotionally will only suggest to her that P is a better route.

Links:
Why it's never too late to be a lesbian | Life and style | The Guardian

Why women are leaving men for other women - CNN.com

Scientists say more and more women are changing their sexuality in mid-life. Can it really be true? And what's the emotional cost? | Daily Mail Online

The New Mixed Marriage: One Straight Spouse, One Gay Spouse | Joe Kort, Ph.D.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What does she say was the cause for her developing feelings for the OW?
> 
> I can't shake it, but what does she say about those years she turned her back on you and the family for the sake of her career? I'll be honest here, but it's my belief that the more you can figure out about why her career took priority over everyone in her family will probably yield more answers than trying to figure out why she chose a woman to have an affair with.
> 
> Am I wrong or did your marriage not take a serious blow shortly after losing her preferred career and had to deal with "just a job" - but knowing that this job made it possible for her to spend more time with the family?


She realizes she was overinvolved with her career and therefore can never return. Her "dream job" focused on helping kids. She had a horrible abusive childhood and by proxy, at some level, was saving herself. She felt tremdously fulfilled helping these kids, but it was extremely time consuming. I think she rationalized the time away because the other children had more pressing needs that her own. She is a rescuer by nature.

The loss of the "dream job" was the start of the identity crisis but she was eventually grateful that she was forced to leave and woke up to what she was missing. But she never felt as personally fulfilled by a future job. In addition, she missed the ability to help and "rescue" people.

As a side note, when my wife met the OW, the OW was recovering from a life-threatening type illness and I know my wife's rescuing instinct kicked in. I believe the OW saw a weakness there between all the bad things going on in my wife's life and my wife's need to help the OW through her illness that the OW was able to swoop in and they "saved each other". Add the fact that the OW was an aggressive lesbian and my wife put herself in a place to be taken advantage of and it was an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## the guy

jld said:


> I don't think it works that way.



Ok, fine maybe OP's old lady really is a lesbian

But I wouldn't wait around and wear matching outfits and go watch "The Notebook" while my sexless marriage continues to fell further apart.

FM15 needs to let his WW go...just let her go....it might save the marriage. Maybe she will start to second guess her choice. Maybe his WW will think twice in what she is about to lose.

After all, her betrayal deserves a consequences, but OP is to scared to lose his cheating wife by standing up to her lies and deceit.


An one more thing...even if the AP was a guy...OP still needs to bang his old lady and show her why she went out with him so many yrs ago!


----------



## wmn1

the guy said:


> I got lucky and avoided a lot off the limbo crap many have been dealt. I just never say rewarding my old lady for betraying me by being so ......sensitive to her lies.....I was phucking hurt and I wanted no part of waiting to see if my old lady wanted me or not.
> 
> You either do or you don't..."I just caught you screwing around behind my back now you want me to wait on your deceitful @ss?"
> 
> The questions is gentlemen...."do I want to keep you around while the knife wound in my back heals?"
> 
> FM15, your old lady is going to screw around on you again. She might be good for a few yrs but you are telling her she can get away with the lies and deceit....and it's just a matter of time ...when the kids get older she will start screwing around again.
> 
> The way I read it is every time she cheats you start treating her like she wants to be treated, not how she needs to be treated.
> 
> IDK, I'm wired different then most. Once you get walked on enough you start to command respect instead of *asking* for respect!


I wouldn't be able to wait either.

Step to the plate and figure it out. He didn't cause this, she did. She owes it to him rather than the other way around


----------



## FamilyMan15

wmn1 said:


> Hey FM, have you considered a timeline or time limit yet on how long you are willing to wait for an answer from her ? If you siad it before, I apologize for missing i and I feel badly you are going through what you are


We are only a week out, so I really don't know. I know I need to wait to push the choice until her OW lala land romance has faded some. She needs some time to discover that their relationship isn't reality.


----------



## the guy

Geez how many excuse can a guy make for his cheating wife?


----------



## the guy

FamilyMan15 said:


> We are only a week out, so I really don't know. I know I need to wait to push the choice until her OW lala land romance has faded some. She needs some time to discover that their relationship isn't reality.


Wait for her is a bad move!


----------



## the guy

Wait. What?
I thought she wanted to keep the family unit together and yet you both agreed to giving it time to see if she is gay?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by RoseAglow
> She is home so he has the availability every day to show him what she could opt to miss out on. *He should work on being Awesome for himself.* He can invite her to do things but still do them if she declines. He can be Super Dad- family is so, so important to most women and it is his strongest card. If he is a good dad (and he sure sounds like one) NO ONE can love her children like he will. He can Get a Life while inviting her to join him. *If he does this, he will show BOTH of them that he can in fact have a great life with or without her. *


I think that the above is a great post. I also think that hat was bolded and underlined is so very important. FamilyMan can start doing this right now and if he does this then he will have got himself into a state that he will be so much better off either way the marriage goes. Some of the other suggestions on this thread are good but I think the suggestion above is the most important for now.

*Familyman, what are you doing to “…work on being awesome for yourself”?*


----------



## FamilyMan15

RoseAglow said:


> OK, so I did a little bit of arm-chair internet research. I couldn't find anything other than forum posts or one-off newspaper articles searching for "Wife left for another woman ("Mrs Miller left her husband for another woman!" type things)". I found some success using "Women Leaving Men for Lesbian Relationships."
> 
> The OP's WW is far from the only woman who found herself attracted to women later in life. The American Psychological Association is starting to do more research on "Late Blooming Lesbians- women who have switched their sexuality after age 30." The current buzzword to describe the phenomenon of women moving into lesbianism later in life is "Sexual Fluidity."
> 
> One of the researchers describes it like this:
> _Diamond has a hunch that the possibility of moving across sexual boundaries increases as people age. "What we know about adult development," she says, "suggests that people become more expansive in a number of ways as they get older . . . I think a lot of women, late in life, when they're no longer worried about raising the kids, and when they're looking back on their marriage and how satisfying it is, find an opportunity to take a second look at what they want and feel like." This doesn't mean that women are choosing whether to be gay or straight, she clarifies. (Diamond's work has sometimes been distorted by rightwing factions in the US, who have suggested it shows homosexuality is optional.) "Every one of the women I studied who underwent a transition experienced it as being out of her control. It was not a conscious choice . . . I think the culture tends to lump together change and choice, as if they're the same phenomenon, but they're not. Puberty involves a heck of a lot of change, but you don't choose it. There are life-course transitions that are beyond our control...
> 
> ...In my study, what I often found was that women who may have always thought that other women were beautiful and attractive would, at some point later in life, actually fall in love with a woman, and that experience vaulted those attractions from something minor to something hugely significant. It wasn't that they'd been repressing their true selves before; it was that without the context of an actual relationship, the little glimmers of occasional fantasies or feelings just weren't that significant."_
> 
> It is definitely happening, but it's not happening to all women:
> _"People always ask me if this research means everyone is bisexual. No, it doesn't," says Lisa Diamond, Ph.D, associate professor of psychology and gender studies at the University of Utah and author of the 2008 book "Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women's Love and Desire." _
> 
> 
> You describe that your wife is struggling. She might be struggling like any normal WW. I believe that there is an extra angle/layer, as described here:
> 
> _Christian Moran, who conducted the studies at the Southern Connecticut State University, found that many women initially go through what is effectively psychological trauma as they try to reconcile their loyalties to their families with their attraction to other women....
> 
> Ultimately, no research in the world can prove conclusively why some women have lesbian encounters in later life while millions of others go through a lifetime without the slightest attraction to another woman.
> 
> But for those who do discover latent tendencies in middle age, the turmoil it can cause to their families is often every bit as hard for them to confront as their own hidden desires. _
> 
> 
> I put the links to the excerpts above at the bottom this post. The articles talk almost entirely about women who self-identified as straight for most of their lives and left for a woman, and never went back to heterosexual relationships. There is one woman who had a lesbian fling for a few weeks but then went back to dating men; she is the only one in these articles. However, the research was on people who came to self-identify as lesbian, not bi or unsure.
> 
> I tried to find articles on "late bloomers" who returned to their heterosexual marriage but didn't find any- likely there's not much funding in that. I do know that the tendency for bi women to leave their gay lover and go (back?) to men was a common lament way back in my college days; I have to think that it happens when women get older too.
> 
> FM, I posted this because wanted to take a look at what was out there. I'm a woman and it is obvious to me that it is very possible for your wife to find herself attracted to woman and moving along the sexual spectrum, even at a later age. I've seen it happen to women I know. It happened to your own wife.
> 
> One of the article talks to a researcher who says that men have some sexual fluidity by it is very limited. He says that men tend to have "preferred sex" and "non-preferred sex". If this is the case then it is understandable to me that men might have a hard believing it is possible.
> 
> It has been my contention that her cheating with/ falling for a same-sex AP only really matters in relation to how you might successfully bring her back into the marriage. I feel this even more strongly, especially after reading the research, as limited as it is.
> 
> If your wife is on the fence, as it seems, I think you are much better off putting up a very persuasive argument rather telling her, "You're in or you're Out. Pick P or D."
> 
> If she comes to believe that she prefers P, it is something that is hers alone and really has nothing to do with you. Throwing her or leaving her on her own emotionally will only suggest to her that P is a better route.
> 
> Links:
> Why it's never too late to be a lesbian | Life and style | The Guardian
> 
> Why women are leaving men for other women - CNN.com
> 
> Scientists say more and more women are changing their sexuality in mid-life. Can it really be true? And what's the emotional cost? | Daily Mail Online
> 
> The New Mixed Marriage: One Straight Spouse, One Gay SpouseÂ*|Â*Joe Kort, Ph.D.


Thanks for all the great information. I agree, nothing is to be gained by forcing any issue. The P or D thing was simply a (ridiculous) attempt to separate the emotion/attraction for THIS woman from attraction for ALL woman. If she's attracted to ALL women, she's a lesbian. If she's not, something else is going on. Maybe she's bi, maybe it's primarily emotional for her and sex is the price of admission or maybe emotional intimacy and physical intimacy got all mixed together. True love type physical intimacy can be very emotionally fulfilling. Throw in an aggressive lesbian and everything get's screwed up. I don't know.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Did you ever ask her if she was more attracted to women? Did you ask her if she felt that having sex with a man was a difficult chore, but not what she prefers to do?
> 
> Where is her honesty? You cannot tell me that she has no clue if she found women attractive and sexually desirable since the time she first hit puberty. She knows if she did or did not. The only person in the dark on this is you.


I asked her about the past and she said that it's a new feeling. I asked her about our sex life and she said she loved it until we started to grow apart emotionally.

I'm 99% sure she didn't find female attractive sexually at an early age. I've known her since college. I KNOW she was attracted to male. Throw a hot guy with his shirt off on TV and she will visibly react every time. I think she's mixed emotional attraction with sexual into one big mess.


----------



## RoseAglow

bfree said:


> So then we agree that someone who identifies as heterosexual can in fact have a homosexual relationship without changing their sexual orientation.


LOL! I think you were talking about sex in extreme circumstances. Yes, men can bang other men in prison and still stay straight; yes, kids can experiment once or twice to see if they are or are not gay. However, I don't think that is what you meant.



> I submit that just as a PUA can manipulate a woman _with bi/gay tendencies _using her vulnerabilities and insecurities so then can a lesbian groom a wife for an otherwise unforseen tryst.


I edited it a bit to align with my beliefs.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By FamilyMan
> She realizes she was overinvolved with her career and therefore can never return. Her "dream job" focused on helping kids. *She had a horrible abusive childhood* and by proxy, at some level, was saving herself. She felt tremdously fulfilled helping these kids, but it was extremely time consuming. I think she rationalized the time away because the other children had more pressing needs that her own. She is a rescuer by nature.
> 
> The loss of the "dream job" was the start of the identity crisis but she was eventually grateful that she was forced to leave and woke up to what she was missing. But she never felt as personally fulfilled by a future job. In addition, she missed the ability to help and "rescue" people.
> 
> As a side note, when my wife met the OW, the OW was recovering from a life-threatening type illness and I know my wife's rescuing instinct kicked in. I believe the OW saw a weakness there between all the bad things going on in my wife's life and my wife's need to help her that she was able to swoop in and they "saved each other"


Ok so now you have told us that your wife had a “..Horrible abusive childhood…” and ‘…4 years of marriage decline…” 
I am not going to make excuses for your wife but I can believe that the OW, being an experienced Lesbian, could see the weakness and exploit that weakness for her advantage.

People with horrible abusive childhoods often have an emotional hole in their soul that is almost impossible to fill. They are also very susceptible to emotions and saving people from great trauma seems to heal that hole a little bit but really it is just a temporary patch.

Now I believe more than ever in you building yourself up in every way that your can and get help from every source. If your stay with your wife you will now have more to deal with than a wife that had sex and emotions with another woman ( that in itself is mountain to climb) but you also will have to deal with the hole in her sole that came from her “horrible abusive childhood”

I am not trying to tell you which way to go with your wife; I am just more convinced than ever that you need to build yourself up. You will need all the strength that your can get if you are going to try and heal two people.


----------



## Pooh Bear

FamilyMan15 said:


> The first 15 years of my marriage were awesome. My wife and I met in college and were very much in love. Lots of love throughout our marriage and great physical and emotional intimacy. We have two elementary-age children.
> 
> But the last 4 years have been a struggle. New jobs and relationship led to lots of conflicts over careers and priorities etc.. that slowly deteriorated our relationship until my wife had an affair with a woman starting in 4 months ago. I just discovered it. She had been going through an identity crisis for the last year due to the loss of a career and was at a low point in our marriage. She has recently broken the relationship off to attempt reconciliation, but is questioning her sexuality and if reconciliation is even possible.
> 
> She is currently living at home and is willing to seek counseling (we are going next week), but ultimately she is torn between a potential new life with her girlfriend and her loyalty to her family and husband. She is concerned that if the sexuality issues are unaddressed, once the children leave, we will split up and it will be too late to start a new life. It wasn't a fling - they had long-term plans to raise children etc...
> 
> I realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship. Ultimately, I love her more than anything and want to save out marriage. My current plan is to make extraordinary effort to show her that I can be the person that she used to love and see a counselor for advice along the way. She has agreed... at least for now. I hope that with time with the new me and counseling to help resolve our issues, her love can be rekindled and we can save our marriage and family. Faced with losing my wife, all the old issues that seemed so big at the time are suddenly insignificant. But if she truly is a lesbian (vs. it being a situational thing), there is not much I can do.
> 
> Fundamental problem #1: Wife says she is deeply questioning her sexuality (and has been for the past year) and thinks she might be a lesbian but doesn't want to risk the family breakup unless she is sure as that has devastating consequences. I think that she is/was trying to escape a deteriorating relationship and an identity crisis and was able to find a loving, supportive partner who filled all the emotional voids left by my emotional distance and my continued driving her away over many years. I believe our relationship is fixable, but am afraid it might be too late.
> 
> Fundamental problem #2: Wife is still is unsure of which relationship she wants. Without both fully committed to rebuilding the relationship, chance for reconciliation seems small. If my wife is here merely out of obligation to the marriage and family, can a reconciliation happen?
> 
> Where do we go from here? How do we rebuild our relationship? How do we recover from the affair?


Having an affair with a woman is a lot different than having an affair with another man. It would probably be best for her to figure out her sexuality before marriage counseling. At least then she can be true to herself and then you guys can move forward from there.


----------



## LongWalk

Great advice.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

Great first post.

FM

You asked me how you focus on yourself.

There are many steps but the first one is to decide on a day in the future that you will no longer allow your wife to sit on the fence.

Pick that date.

Another step is to prepare for a future without your wife. One of my dear friends had a wife cheat on him multiple times with the same guy. He was depressed, angry and mentally unstable.

I told him to write down a few one liners on pieces of paper. tape them to his vanity mirrir. On the back of his bedroom door. On his bathroom mirror. On the refrigerator.

he needs to read these message everyday until he believed them.

"I have value"
"I am not Plan B!"
"I am a loving man that loves his family"
"I believe in truth"
"I believe in my vows"
"I believe in myself"

You can google motivational one line messages.

The idea is to build up your confidence in yourself. Because in life we truly only have ourselves to rely on.

My buddy realized over the course of a few months that he deserved better than his wife was capable of giving him.

"I deserve truth"
"I deserve commitment"
"I deserve happiness"

Your wife has issues. Issues that you cannot resolve for her. You have given her shelter and comfort that she honestly does not deserve. Because she lied and cheated.

I admire you for putting the affair aside in order to attempt to keep the family together.

For your own sanity and self esteem put a time limit on it.

HM


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Wait, she was a child abuse victim? Did that include sexual abuse as a child? 

Just a thought Fam15, but could it be possible that you were nothing more than a person who rescued her from her bad situation? I get it that she was in college, so what was there to be rescued from at that point in life? Emotionally, I think you were seen as a rescuer of her. 

I would bet that most of your reactions to her neglecting the family were normal even if it was harshly worded, but when you add in that she suffered an abusive childhood then she could have interpreted your actions as those of an abuser. 

So now this OW has "rescued" her from her plight of suffering from a "callous" and "insensitive" husband. WOW! This looks like a cycle. Now I wonder if there were other BFs before you who were her "rescuer" who then turned into her "abuser" - based on her perceptions.

So it's confirmed. Loss of her dream job. She tells you that she's glad she lost it because she didn't realize what she gave up. However, by her actions she withdraws from you and runs to an affair partner for comfort for the loss. What does that tell you?


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Great first post.
> 
> FM
> 
> You asked me how you focus on yourself.
> 
> There are many steps but the first one is to decide on a day in the future that you will no longer allow your wife to sit on the fence.
> 
> Pick that date.
> 
> Another step is to prepare for a future without your wife. One of my dear friends had a wife cheat on him multiple times with the same guy. He was depressed, angry and mentally unstable.
> 
> I told him to write down a few one liners on pieces of paper. tape them to his vanity mirrir. On the back of his bedroom door. On his bathroom mirror. On the refrigerator.
> 
> he needs to read these message everyday until he believed them.
> 
> "I have value"
> "I am not Plan B!"
> "I am a loving man that loves his family"
> "I believe in truth"
> "I believe in my vows"
> "I believe in myself"
> 
> You can google motivational one line messages.
> 
> The idea is to build up your confidence in yourself. Because in life we truly only have ourselves to rely on.
> 
> My buddy realized over the course of a few months that he deserved better than his wife was capable of giving him.
> 
> "I deserve truth"
> "I deserve commitment"
> "I deserve happiness"
> 
> Your wife has issues. Issues that you cannot resolve for her. You have given her shelter and comfort that she honestly does not deserve. Because she lied and cheated.
> 
> I admire you for putting the affair aside in order to attempt to keep the family together.
> 
> For your own sanity and self esteem put a time limit on it.
> 
> HM


I think this is good advice. Thanks.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Thinking more about her sexuality and it's impact on our chances to reconcile...

I really think it’s more of a situational thing since as recently as mid August, my wife was into guys (me). That night we had one of those all night sex sessions like when we were young (we're 40s now). The emotional and physical intimacy was back even though it was just for a night. 1-2 weeks later (can't remember the exact date) she lost her second job in two years and later that week she met this OW (initially as a friend obviously). 

Combine identity crisis with marriage crisis with severe depression with my wifes need to help people with my wife putting herself in social circumstances that her could be taken advantage of (drinking late into the night with singles) and add an aggressive lesbian and everything was lined up for this to happen. It’s possible that maybe a little later of “if I’m gay, this is ok to do, in fact I need to figure this out and therefore I'm not a horrible person” rationalization furthered the confusion.

Maybe she's bi, but I really believe in my heart that she's not a lesbian. I think she was too emotionally and physically fulfilled by our relationship for too many years for that to be the case. I know she was happy in our relationship for many many years. Based on that, I believe she can be as fulfilled by our relationship again if she chooses to give us the chance. I don't care about her label. I think she needs to focus on giving us a fair shot to see if she could be happy in our relationship like she should have before she had the affair. She would have to leave the OW 100% for this to happen. This is what I am pushing and hopefully the counselor will tomorrow as well. Trying to stay in both lives and "figure out the best one" is just going to further the confusion as the other life isn't reality.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Wait, she was a child abuse victim? Did that include sexual abuse as a child?
> 
> Just a thought Fam15, but could it be possible that you were nothing more than a person who rescued her from her bad situation? I get it that she was in college, so what was there to be rescued from at that point in life? Emotionally, I think you were seen as a rescuer of her.
> 
> I would bet that most of your reactions to her neglecting the family were normal even if it was harshly worded, but when you add in that she suffered an abusive childhood then she could have interpreted your actions as those of an abuser.
> 
> So now this OW has "rescued" her from her plight of suffering from a "callous" and "insensitive" husband. WOW! This looks like a cycle. Now I wonder if there were other BFs before you who were her "rescuer" who then turned into her "abuser" - based on her perceptions.
> 
> So it's confirmed. Loss of her dream job. She tells you that she's glad she lost it because she didn't realize what she gave up. However, by her actions she withdraws from you and runs to an affair partner for comfort for the loss. What does that tell you?


Yes - emotional, physical, and sexual abuse (by males) as a child. I was probably the first man she really trusted. and I broke that trust recently through several years of rejection and conflict. So she went to another person and bonded over shared adversity - I think the OW had a similar past). I think there definitely a cycle here and the emotional rejection of males kinda fits in as an end result due to our circumstances.

Just to note, the loss of the dream job was about a 16 months ago. She was laid off after a year from another job right before she met the OW in Sept (initially a good friend who was helping her work through things). She talked about her at that point and it wasn't until later that she started hiding their meetings (basically once I met the OW mid Nov or so, I knew she was gay, and I think my wife started hiding things at that point).


----------



## Mr.Fisty

At the same time though, you should protect yourself. Your placing all your eggs in one basket, and if it fails, it will be harder to recover. You should create a fulfilling life for yourself outside of a marriage. You should invest more in yourself. Your hoping for an outcome you want. What you should be planning for is how to become a better you so you will be fine. She may return or not. If she does, the real hard work will begin. As much as you want for her to return at the moment, because love makes us clingy and needy when the object of our love is gone, you will then have to battle the abandonment, bitterness, resentment, anger, your self-worth, while trying to learn to forgive that person who caused you all that anguish. You haven't dealt with the emotional backlash yet. Right now, your main focus is getting back the source of your addiction, your wife. You may not realize this yet, but your grabbing onto a past image of what your life use to be. You will have to deal with a new reality. Your wife will look like a different person to you. She is not this pristine person you once believe her to be. You will have to learn to accept the new reality as well.


----------



## Chaparral

FamilyMan15 said:


> Excellent before affair. Stopped during (4 month), but things were pretty strained at that point anyway, so while it was weird, it wasn't unexpected. We weren't clicking at any level. Well she was discovered last week, so none since either due to her being on the fence. She is conflicted between two loves and highly emotional.


There are heavy bonding and feel good chemicals exchanged when having sex. You really need to instigate sex with her. As a matter of fact, if she refuses you I would suspect you are being played. At this point, if she is actually withholding sex she is being faithful to her lover.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> Combine identity crisis with marriage crisis with severe depression with my wifes need to help people with *my wife putting herself in social circumstances that her could be taken advantage of (drinking late into the night with singles)* and add an aggressive lesbian and everything was lined up for this to happen. It’s possible that maybe a little later of “if I’m gay, this is ok to do, in fact I need to figure this out and therefore I'm not a horrible person” rationalization furthered the confusion.


What's that about? Are you saying - just now - that your wife liked to go on girl's nights out (GNOs) on top of the dream job? Or did she start doing the GNOs after she lost her dream job and she had more time on her hands?


----------



## Chaparral

Can anyone remember the poster whose wife left him for her massage therapist. I think they were French. He pushed her over the edge by spying on her I think. At least that's the excuse she used. Straight women being played by lesbians is no different than being turned by any other pick up artist.


Print this and ask your wife if she sees any similarities. The poster no longer posts here.

_*Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
***********************************************

My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.

For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.

I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.

The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.

If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.

Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.

I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.

I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.

As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.

The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.

I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.


I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.

I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.

It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.

Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.

It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
findingmyway is offline Forward Message 
*_


----------



## Chaparral

Did I mention you need to put the moves on your wife?


----------



## ButtPunch

cactusflower said:


> Long time lurker, first-time poster.
> 
> I've been a dedicated fan of this site since '11, when my best friend was cheated on by her husband.
> 
> OP, your post triggered something in me and I feel possessed to share my take on things.
> 
> I'm 31 years old, married 7 years and with my husband for 10. We have one child, a son, who is 4. My husband has no idea I'm on here and I've never shared this with anyone in my "real life", so this is a first for me.
> 
> First off, prior to dating my husband, I was a big cheater. Before meeting my guy, I only had one relationship in which I was faithful, at the age of 14. In every relationship since then, but before my husband, I cheated with men at every opportunity. I've identified with many of the scorned spouses on here when they relate to how their spouse lied and tried to weasel their way out of what they've done. I've heard it all because I've said it all.
> 
> What no one knows about me is that I was in love with a woman during my senior year of high school. Madly in love. I've never forgotten about her and it doesn't matter how many years pass, she's always apart of me. Looking at me, or knowing me, you'd never think that I'm bisexual, but that's how I identify myself.
> 
> Over the years, I've fantasized about what I would do if this woman were to come back in my life. And then I've snapped back to reality that I've made a life and home and a family with my beloved husband. Recently, she moved back into our area and lives in the next town over. The thought has crossed my mind to run into her, but only one thing stops me: the love for my husband, the life we've created, and my respect for him. I know if I were to cheat with anyone, I would lose him. The thought of him divorcing me is too much to bear.
> I'm human though, I have thoughts about her, but I don't dwell on them long. It isn't reality. It's just a romanticized alternate universe.
> 
> I don't agree with some on here that say "no way, she isn't gay" or "heck, she isn't even bisexual." Someone on here said that if you get married and have children, you can't be gay. I have to laugh at that.
> 
> For you, however, the issue isn't her sexual orientation. It's that you're standing idly by accepting the fact that this woman, who proclaims to love you, has disrespected you so. If she valued you and your relationship, she'd be too scared to lose you.
> As someone who believes themselves to be bi and a former cheater, I can tell you this: she has no respect for you whatsoever.
> 
> This isn't about being weak or anything to do with masculinity. It's her view of you, regardless of all that stereotypical mumbo jumbo of what a man should be. What she sees is the perfect opportunity to stall, but she's already chosen. It isn't you, because if it was you, she would have refrained from cheating.
> 
> Like I've said, I've been on this site for a few years and you're eating into her hand. She has you fooled and you won't realize it until it's too late. What strikes me as odd is that you haven't even hit the phase of "I don't really even know her, do I?" that many go through. Questioning the past years together. That's a normal human response.
> 
> You've seemed to be able to avoid that altogether and just want to cling to what someone else decides your life to be and I find it rather...sad. Depressing.
> 
> It isn't about the sexual orientation. It's about breaking her vows.
> 
> Your wife wasn't vulnerable. The OW isn't this treacherous con-artist, just waiting for your wife to lay down her heterosexuality. Your wife fooled you just as much as the OW.
> 
> I don't know how healthy repressing your emotions is, just so you don't push her into bisexuality and a relationship with this other woman- something I truly doubt that you're capable of doing.
> 
> It's quite simple, really. She either wants to be with you or she doesn't.
> 
> I had to hop on here, because your post struck a chord with me- both with the cheating and bisexuality.
> 
> This isn't the way to do it and more importantly, this isn't a way to live life. To let someone else decide it for you, hoping she'll swing back to your side of the playground. Even if she does come back, I have a feeling it will be reluctantly and I truly think she'll do it again because you've laid the groundwork for her to get away with it. And she knows it. And she knows you'll stand idly by, waiting for her to make the decision of your life.
> 
> You deserve someone who's going to be faithful to you and honest with you.
> 
> I also strongly urge you to not buy into 100% of what she's selling. Odds are, there is some history that you aren't aware of. I can tell you that when I cheated, I made men wait on the fence for me. And they did. But I'm not married to any of them.
> 
> Good luck OP.



This is a great post about your situation. We have got to get you emotionally strong enough to see this. You deserve better. 

Do you honestly think your wife is going to by a yoga mat and pontificate her sexuality over morning coffee and meditation. Any sexuality research will be with the OW. 

Have you purchased any of the books I suggested. Your wife has lost her respect for you. The books will help you learn how to command respect and increase your attraction to her as well as boost your self confidence. Everything you been taught about women is wrong. They are eye openers. 

Every day you allow her to fence sit is another day she loses more respect for you and her attraction for you falls further. You have had several posters here who have successfully saved their marriage and each one of them was willing to lose it. I have not seen one poster who was able to do what you are trying to do and it work out. Not only do you have to nip this in the bud but you have to prevent it from occurring again. 

I don't believe in ultimatums and that's not what I want you to do. However, if she isn't trying to move mountains to save the marriage she has destroyed, you are fighting a losing battle. File for divorce, let her have the papers in her hand. Actions...not the threat of ultimatums (Words). Only then she will take you seriously. Only then will her respect for you come back. Only then will you respect yourself. 

OP....I immediately started the divorce process but guess what 
I AM STILL MARRIED like a lot of the other posters who saved their marriages. 

I know you are afraid of the impact to your life, kids, family, friends but fear is not how you make a decision. She made a choice and those are the consequences of that choice. 

It is what it is.


----------



## Hicks

I think it comes down to this.

If you sit an wait, you allow her to access her feelings and contemplate her relationship with this woman. But that is all based on a fantasy. You want to avoid conversations and the like where she is able to access the confused, still deciding, stringing you along where she is reverting to her fantasy and comparing it to the reality of her marriage to you. That's a losing proposition for you.

If you are proactive, you can cause her to access feelings of what a real divorce will look like. What this will do to her kids. What it will be like for her entire social sphere to know that she cheated. What it will like for everyone to know she cheated with a woman. And by being proactive, I don't mean long heart to heart discussions. It's about you moving things to that reality during any period of time that she is not committed to your marriage.


----------



## badmemory

FamilyMan15 said:


> There can't be reconciliation until she is 100% ready to commit.


That's true FM. But just her commitment is not enough. After that, she need's to "demonstrate" that she is remorseful. Not by just her words, but her actions. Those actions include:

- She will send a no-contact letter to OW, that you read and approve. No sentimentality allowed. 

- She will agree that any further contact with OW is a deal breaker.

- A regular, enthusiastic sex life with you going forward.

- No more mentioning of how she still pines for the OW. She will feel what she feels about her, but she doesn't get to continue to disrespect you in the process. 

- She will agree to new boundaries and a new level of transparency.

- She will agree to IC and MC.

But *first* and foremost, you will no longer wait for her to decide. She has to commit *now*. I agree with all the posters that have told you; the longer you allow her to fence sit, the more respect she loses for you. And the less respect she has for you, the less she is attracted to you.

We have told so many BS's like you, hundreds of times - you can't nice your WS back to your arms. It's just a terrible strategy if you want the best chance to save your marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

This isn't a fair fight. You haven't had sex with her for a long time. She has had a lot of sex with the other woman very recently. The brain isn't built to remember the feelings of sex. You are a distant memory to her. You need to have sex and a lot of it with her to combat this situation. Otherwise you have no chance. Take her out, do some drinking and put the moves on her.


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> Maybe she's bi, but I really believe in my heart that she's not a lesbian. I think she was too emotionally and physically fulfilled by our relationship for too many years for that to be the case. I know she was happy in our relationship for many many years. Based on that, I believe she can be as fulfilled by our relationship again if she chooses to give us the chance. I don't care about her label. I think she needs to focus on giving us a fair shot to see if she could be happy in our relationship like she should have before she had the affair. She would have to leave the OW 100% for this to happen. This is what I am pushing and hopefully the counselor will tomorrow as well. Trying to stay in both lives and "figure out the best one" is just going to further the confusion as the other life isn't reality.


 The facts clearly show that she is not a pure lesbian, but is in fact bi. Thus you must start treating this just like any other affair, and stop letting her use the false excuse of maybe she is a lesbian to string you along. 

You are under the false impression that by not pushing her in dealing with her affair, you are doing the best thing to save your marriage. You are not. Because she now sees you as weak in dealing with this affair, if your wife has not already gone underground and resumed contact with her affair partner (AP), she eventually will. She will justify secret contact to herself as needing the AP's input, and the AP will tell her that it was unfair for her to make such a decision that will impact the AP's life without discussing it with the AP. This will give the AP home court advantage in that the AP will know what you are saying and have a chance to respond to it, while you will not have a chance to respond to the AP's conversations because they will be kept a secret from you.

Now that the shock of you knowing and your wife fearing your response is wearing off, time is not on your side in dealing with this affair. Your odds of saving your marriage get weaker with every day of limbo. You must be willing to end the marriage to increase your odds at saving it. You may be too late to save your marriage, but waiting to put your foot down is not to your advantage. BTW, even if she were a lesbian, which she is not, waiting to let her decide does not save your marriage, so there is really no down side to putting your foot down now. Again, I am not saying it is a sure thing answer, just wanting you to increase your odds.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

cactusflower's post #288 should be absolutely stickied to the top of this thread. And for heaven's sake OP, I hope you read her every word like your life depends on it, because it just may.

I would only add this to your post cactusflower: His wife can most certainly have feelings of desire for this woman, but she can also use lesbianism as a convenient excuse to take the blame off of herself. "It wasn't me choosing to have an affair, it was me waking up to realize I'm a lesbian! My lesbianism made me do it!"

Many, many of us have bisexual desires at least some times in our life, it's no secret and no sin. But like any affair, the cheater has to rationalize their behavior and anything they can grab onto no matter what it is, real or not, will do.


----------



## sidney2718

> Originally Posted by FamilyMan15 ￼
> We are only a week out, so I really don't know. I know I need to wait to push the choice until her OW lala land romance has faded some. She needs some time to discover that their relationship isn't reality.





the guy said:


> Wait for her is a bad move!


Stay cool dude. A week out is a very very short time. They both need a few weeks if not longer to decide what they want to do. There's no rush and very little is at risk by waiting.


----------



## sidney2718

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks for all the great information. I agree, nothing is to be gained by forcing any issue. The P or D thing was simply a (ridiculous) attempt to separate the emotion/attraction for THIS woman from attraction for ALL woman. If she's attracted to ALL women, she's a lesbian. If she's not, something else is going on. Maybe she's bi, maybe it's primarily emotional for her and sex is the price of admission or maybe emotional intimacy and physical intimacy got all mixed together. True love type physical intimacy can be very emotionally fulfilling. Throw in an aggressive lesbian and everything get's screwed up. I don't know.


Man, I think you really have your head screwed on straight. I agree with you 100%. While I think that you should always be working on being awesome, she is no doubt trying to figure herself out. You are probably her closest friend and you could help her by letting her know that you will listen if she wants to talk it out with you.


----------



## sidney2718

Hicks said:


> I think it comes down to this.
> 
> If you sit an wait, you allow her to access her feelings and contemplate her relationship with this woman. But that is all based on a fantasy. You want to avoid conversations and the like where she is able to access the confused, still deciding, stringing you along where she is reverting to her fantasy and comparing it to the reality of her marriage to you. That's a losing proposition for you.
> 
> If you are proactive, you can cause her to access feelings of what a real divorce will look like. What this will do to her kids. What it will be like for her entire social sphere to know that she cheated. What it will like for everyone to know she cheated with a woman. And by being proactive, I don't mean long heart to heart discussions. It's about you moving things to that reality during any period of time that she is not committed to your marriage.


Normally I'd agree with this. But I'm not sure that we men can totally understand. Women, particularly women of a certain age, can be sexually fluid and sometimes realize that they are now lesbians.

Switching like that isn't a choice and more than being born that way is a choice. She needs to figure out as best she can, if she's a lesbian or not or if this is a one-off affair.

Sure, she can be guilted. Probably even guilted to the point of coming back to the marriage -- a marriage in which she can never be happy if she is really a lesbian. That won't be the OP's fault -- it has nothing to do with him. Which is why I say that this isn't a normal infidelity situation.

I think that the best thing OP can do is to help her figure this out. After that there may be no decision to make. But if there is, then he is at liberty to chose what he wants to do.


----------



## farsidejunky

cactusflower said:


> Can someone please remind me how the OP discovered the affair? Did she confess before being caught?


Nope.

ETA: No, she was caught.


----------



## ButtPunch

sidney2718 said:


> Normally I'd agree with this. But I'm not sure that we men can totally understand. Women, particularly women of a certain age, can be sexually fluid and sometimes realize that they are now lesbians.
> 
> Switching like that isn't a choice and more than being born that way is a choice. She needs to figure out as best she can, if she's a lesbian or not or if this is a one-off affair.
> 
> Sure, she can be guilted. Probably even guilted to the point of coming back to the marriage -- a marriage in which she can never be happy if she is really a lesbian. That won't be the OP's fault -- it has nothing to do with him. Which is why I say that this isn't a normal infidelity situation.
> 
> I think that the best thing OP can do is to help her figure this out. After that there may be no decision to make. But if there is, then he is at liberty to chose what he wants to do.


Just plain bad advice


----------



## LongWalk

FM, if your wife has always been wrestling with the urge to have sex with women, and she simply came out of the closet, then your marriage is toast. She should have the decency to come clean if this is the case.

When you were dating and in love was she into sex? Does she fall in love with both men and women, ie is bisexual. She ought to know this, too, even if at the moment she is in love with OW.

If OW was a good over and gave your wife orgasms galore hour after hour, then her brains may be scrambled for a long while. You find it awkward to approach your wife right now. No wonder. Your wife might require 4 or 5 month to fall out of love with OW. If she has contact with her, the infatuation can last longer.

Can you change yourself and stay strong while this goes on?


----------



## TRy

@OP: If your wife is a lesbian (I do not think that she is) and not bi, then no amount of waiting to take action is going to save your marriage in the long run. If she is not a lesbian, then waiting only hurts your odds to save your marriage, as your lack of strong action begins to embolden her to secretly resume contact with her affair partner. Your position only weakens the longer this limbo continues. Put your foot down now while it still matters to her.


----------



## FamilyMan15

the guy said:


> Geez how many excuse can a guy make for his cheating wife?


There is no excuse. I just helped set the stage.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr Blunt said:


> I think that the above is a great post. I also think that hat was bolded and underlined is so very important. FamilyMan can start doing this right now and if he does this then he will have got himself into a state that he will be so much better off either way the marriage goes. Some of the other suggestions on this thread are good but I think the suggestion above is the most important for now.
> 
> *Familyman, what are you doing to “…work on being awesome for yourself”?*


I'm getting back in shape, losing weight (mostly because I'm not eating), but mostly just focusing on being a great dad.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Pooh Bear said:


> Having an affair with a woman is a lot different than having an affair with another man. It would probably be best for her to figure out her sexuality before marriage counseling. At least then she can be true to herself and then you guys can move forward from there.


Right. We have our first couple session tomorrow where the counselor will advise the next steps. I think it will be individual counseling for her first I bet.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cactusflower said:


> Long time lurker, first-time poster.
> 
> I've been a dedicated fan of this site since '11, when my best friend was cheated on by her husband.
> 
> OP, your post triggered something in me and I feel possessed to share my take on things.
> 
> I'm 31 years old, married 7 years and with my husband for 10. We have one child, a son, who is 4. My husband has no idea I'm on here and I've never shared this with anyone in my "real life", so this is a first for me.
> 
> First off, prior to dating my husband, I was a big cheater. Before meeting my guy, I only had one relationship in which I was faithful, at the age of 14. In every relationship since then, but before my husband, I cheated with men at every opportunity. I've identified with many of the scorned spouses on here when they relate to how their spouse lied and tried to weasel their way out of what they've done. I've heard it all because I've said it all.
> 
> What no one knows about me is that I was in love with a woman during my senior year of high school. Madly in love. I've never forgotten about her and it doesn't matter how many years pass, she's always apart of me. Looking at me, or knowing me, you'd never think that I'm bisexual, but that's how I identify myself.
> 
> Over the years, I've fantasized about what I would do if this woman were to come back in my life. And then I've snapped back to reality that I've made a life and home and a family with my beloved husband. Recently, she moved back into our area and lives in the next town over. The thought has crossed my mind to run into her, but only one thing stops me: the love for my husband, the life we've created, and my respect for him. I know if I were to cheat with anyone, I would lose him. The thought of him divorcing me is too much to bear.
> I'm human though, I have thoughts about her, but I don't dwell on them long. It isn't reality. It's just a romanticized alternate universe.
> 
> I don't agree with some on here that say "no way, she isn't gay" or "heck, she isn't even bisexual." Someone on here said that if you get married and have children, you can't be gay. I have to laugh at that.
> 
> For you, however, the issue isn't her sexual orientation. It's that you're standing idly by accepting the fact that this woman, who proclaims to love you, has disrespected you so. If she valued you and your relationship, she'd be too scared to lose you.
> As someone who believes themselves to be bi and a former cheater, I can tell you this: she has no respect for you whatsoever.
> 
> This isn't about being weak or anything to do with masculinity. It's her view of you, regardless of all that stereotypical mumbo jumbo of what a man should be. What she sees is the perfect opportunity to stall, but she's already chosen. It isn't you, because if it was you, she would have refrained from cheating.
> 
> Like I've said, I've been on this site for a few years and you're eating into her hand. She has you fooled and you won't realize it until it's too late. What strikes me as odd is that you haven't even hit the phase of "I don't really even know her, do I?" that many go through. Questioning the past years together. That's a normal human response.
> 
> You've seemed to be able to avoid that altogether and just want to cling to what someone else decides your life to be and I find it rather...sad. Depressing.
> 
> It isn't about the sexual orientation. It's about breaking her vows.
> 
> Your wife wasn't vulnerable. The OW isn't this treacherous con-artist, just waiting for your wife to lay down her heterosexuality. Your wife fooled you just as much as the OW.
> 
> I don't know how healthy repressing your emotions is, just so you don't push her into bisexuality and a relationship with this other woman- something I truly doubt that you're capable of doing.
> 
> It's quite simple, really. She either wants to be with you or she doesn't.
> 
> I had to hop on here, because your post struck a chord with me- both with the cheating and bisexuality.
> 
> This isn't the way to do it and more importantly, this isn't a way to live life. To let someone else decide it for you, hoping she'll swing back to your side of the playground. Even if she does come back, I have a feeling it will be reluctantly and I truly think she'll do it again because you've laid the groundwork for her to get away with it. And she knows it. And she knows you'll stand idly by, waiting for her to make the decision of your life.
> 
> You deserve someone who's going to be faithful to you and honest with you.
> 
> I also strongly urge you to not buy into 100% of what she's selling. Odds are, there is some history that you aren't aware of. I can tell you that when I cheated, I made men wait on the fence for me. And they did. But I'm not married to any of them.
> 
> Good luck OP.


Thanks for sharing. A lot of this could be hard truth. Honestly, I'm not sure if I knew her really well and if she just lost her way in a time of need or if I never really knew her at all. I can tell you know that she is tremendously conflicted.


----------



## happyman64

Good Luck tomorrow.

Listen. Listen.

And speak up if the facts need to be kept straight.

Be Cool, calm & confident my friend.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr.Fisty said:


> At the same time though, you should protect yourself. Your placing all your eggs in one basket, and if it fails, it will be harder to recover. You should create a fulfilling life for yourself outside of a marriage. You should invest more in yourself. Your hoping for an outcome you want. What you should be planning for is how to become a better you so you will be fine. She may return or not. If she does, the real hard work will begin. As much as you want for her to return at the moment, because love makes us clingy and needy when the object of our love is gone, you will then have to battle the abandonment, bitterness, resentment, anger, your self-worth, while trying to learn to forgive that person who caused you all that anguish. You haven't dealt with the emotional backlash yet. Right now, your main focus is getting back the source of your addiction, your wife. You may not realize this yet, but your grabbing onto a past image of what your life use to be. You will have to deal with a new reality. Your wife will look like a different person to you. She is not this pristine person you once believe her to be. You will have to learn to accept the new reality as well.


I think your right. Assuming we head down the reconciliation path, that's a whole different world of hurt, and right now I'm just focusing on getting her back. But, I think you are right. I need to start picturing and planning a life without her - frankly it's a likely scenario at this point.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What's that about? Are you saying - just now - that your wife liked to go on girl's nights out (GNOs) on top of the dream job? Or did she start doing the GNOs after she lost her dream job and she had more time on her hands?


No. Over the last year, since she's lost the dream job, she's been doing more girls night outs with other mutual friends. She does has a couple single friends that she sees on occasions that I haven't been happy about. More recently since the loss of the second job. The OW was one of them. As a parent, hanging out with other moms is ok. Drinking late into the night with singles is not. It was a conflict towards the end, but it was a way to escape the situation for her. I should have focused on helping her fix the solution vs. adding additional conflict over her ways of escaping it. This has all been one big escape.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> Can anyone remember the poster whose wife left him for her massage therapist. I think they were French. He pushed her over the edge by spying on her I think. At least that's the excuse she used. Straight women being played by lesbians is no different than being turned by any other pick up artist.
> 
> 
> Print this and ask your wife if she sees any similarities. The poster no longer posts here.
> 
> _*Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> 
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.
> findingmyway is offline Forward Message
> *_


I think it was a different kind of thing. They had long term type plans they were considering vs. fling type behavior. But I think the "hook" was executed this way.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Hicks said:


> I think it comes down to this.
> 
> If you sit an wait, you allow her to access her feelings and contemplate her relationship with this woman. But that is all based on a fantasy. You want to avoid conversations and the like where she is able to access the confused, still deciding, stringing you along where she is reverting to her fantasy and comparing it to the reality of her marriage to you. That's a losing proposition for you.
> 
> If you are proactive, you can cause her to access feelings of what a real divorce will look like. What this will do to her kids. What it will be like for her entire social sphere to know that she cheated. What it will like for everyone to know she cheated with a woman. And by being proactive, I don't mean long heart to heart discussions. It's about you moving things to that reality during any period of time that she is not committed to your marriage.


IF she's on the fence much longer, this might be good next step.


----------



## FamilyMan15

PreRaphaelite said:


> cactusflower's post #288 should be absolutely stickied to the top of this thread. And for heaven's sake OP, I hope you read her every word like your life depends on it, because it just may.
> 
> I would only add this to your post cactusflower: His wife can most certainly have feelings of desire for this woman, but she can also use lesbianism as a convenient excuse to take the blame off of herself. "It wasn't me choosing to have an affair, it was me waking up to realize I'm a lesbian! My lesbianism made me do it!"
> 
> Many, many of us have bisexual desires at least some times in our life, it's no secret and no sin. But like any affair, the cheater has to rationalize their behavior and anything they can grab onto no matter what it is, real or not, will do.


I do think that this is at least part of it. Maybe more like "I have to figure this out to be true to myself, so therefore I can't be a horrible person because I cheated."


----------



## FamilyMan15

sidney2718 said:


> Stay cool dude. A week out is a very very short time. They both need a few weeks if not longer to decide what they want to do. There's no rush and very little is at risk by waiting.


That's my thought as well. After 20 years and with kids involved, I don't want to make a purely reactionary decision or force her to make one either. I'm not saying I can wait a long while, but I think things need to settle a bit to make the right call. At the very least, it's the lowest risk.


----------



## FamilyMan15

sidney2718 said:


> Man, I think you really have your head screwed on straight. I agree with you 100%. While I think that you should always be working on being awesome, she is no doubt trying to figure herself out. You are probably her closest friend and you could help her by letting her know that you will listen if she wants to talk it out with you.


I'm trying to be here for her, but obviously I am a biased party, so while we talk about us, we don't talk to much about the sexual identity stuff other than me reminding her of our all great past experiences in which she clearly wasn't gay. I think a professional is a better fit for that conversation.


----------



## FamilyMan15

sidney2718 said:


> Normally I'd agree with this. But I'm not sure that we men can totally understand. Women, particularly women of a certain age, can be sexually fluid and sometimes realize that they are now lesbians.
> 
> Switching like that isn't a choice and more than being born that way is a choice. She needs to figure out as best she can, if she's a lesbian or not or if this is a one-off affair.
> 
> Sure, she can be guilted. Probably even guilted to the point of coming back to the marriage -- a marriage in which she can never be happy if she is really a lesbian. That won't be the OP's fault -- it has nothing to do with him. Which is why I say that this isn't a normal infidelity situation.
> 
> I think that the best thing OP can do is to help her figure this out. After that there may be no decision to make. But if there is, then he is at liberty to chose what he wants to do.


That my thought as well. She needs to legitimately pick a lifestyle on her own own, or we'll be back here in no time.


----------



## FamilyMan15

LongWalk said:


> When you were dating and in love was she into sex? Does she fall in love with both men and women, ie is bisexual. She ought to know this, too, even if at the moment she is in love with OW.
> 
> If OW was a good over and gave your wife orgasms galore hour after hour, then her brains may be scrambled for a long while. You find it awkward to approach your wife right now. No wonder. Your wife might require 4 or 5 month to fall out of love with OW. If she has contact with her, the infatuation can last longer.
> 
> Can you change yourself and stay strong while this goes on?


She was totally into sex up until our relationship started to become extra strained. We had a all night crazy sex night mid Aug and I know she wasn't gay then. I've known her since we were 18 or so and I've never seen ANY woman-directed interest. I gotta think hiding it that long would be impossible. and I've thought about that a lot lately.

I can stay strong if there is hope. It is awkward to approach her physically now - lots of hurtful pictures running through my head. Not sexy pictures at all. Betrayal ruins all the sexiness of lesbian sex. That pretty much cuts out that porn genre. That's a whole different issue.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Good Luck tomorrow.
> 
> Listen. Listen.
> 
> And speak up if the facts need to be kept straight.
> 
> Be Cool, calm & confident my friend.


Thanks for the support - I'm pretty nervous. I'll post an update after. I don't like putting so much dependence in the advice of this single unknown person.


----------



## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks for the support - I'm pretty nervous. I'll post an update after. I don't like putting so much dependence in the advice of this single unknown person.


Just remember, that person works for you, not the other way around. A couples counselor is going to try to find a middle ground. If you seem pliable you will get molded. Be firm in your boundaries and be resolute in your expectations. Your are not trying to control her, you are holding to what is acceptable to you.


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> Just remember, that person works for you, not the other way around. A couples counselor is going to try to find a middle ground. If you seem pliable you will get molded. Be firm in your boundaries and be resolute in your expectations. Your are not trying to control her, you are holding to what is acceptable to you.


Good advice - thanks.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

FamilyMan15 said:


> No. Over the last year, since she's lost the dream job, she's been doing more girls night outs with other mutual friends. She does has a couple single friends that she sees on occasions that I haven't been happy about. More recently since the loss of the second job. The OW was one of them. As a parent, hanging out with other moms is ok. Drinking late into the night with singles is not. *It was a conflict towards the end, but it was a way to escape the situation for her. I should have focused on helping her fix the solution vs. adding additional conflict over her ways of escaping it. This has all been one big escape*.


So that's the conclusion you draw from all this? I guess if it was me, I would be pissed off that my wife is still doing her best to spend as little time with the family and me as possible - assuming her GNO's (with married women or singles) are consuming large amounts of time on a weekly basis. 

Is there ever any time in your marriage where you are allowed to get angry without the fear of being labeled an abuser? Many social workers that I know were half nuts btw.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr. Blunt
> I think that the above is a great post. I also think that hat was bolded and underlined is so very important. Family Man can start doing this right now and if he does this then he will have got himself into a state that he will be so much better off either way the marriage goes. Some of the other suggestions on this thread are good but I think the suggestion above is the most important for now.
> 
> *Familyman, what are you doing to “…work on being awesome for yourself”?*
> 
> By FamilyMan
> I'm getting back in shape, losing weight (mostly because I'm not eating), but mostly just focusing on being a great dad.


That is good. *Maybe also think about doing something and/or getting help with building up your self-confidence and self-worth.* Unless you are superman then you have been hurt in those two areas by the betrayal of your wife. Do not depend on your wife to do this as she has been weakened herself and probably is very limited at this time.

I know that this suggestion may not be at your top priority list right now but it is the only thing that *I know of that is 100% guaranteed to help you either way this turns out.*

From your posts I think that you are a very capable of figuring out a lot of this stuff. I know that you need help and you are taking everyone’s suggestion to heart and filtering it out to meet your situation. As you know in the end it will be YOU and YOU only that will make the decisions for your life. No one cares about you more than you and you are lucky because you are capable. 

I do not know much about all this lesbian/Bi crap but I do know that eventually your wife will get jolted out of her conflicted mind but you can only change you.. You have got to do what is best for YOU right now because it is very obvious that she has not put you first or even second.

Hopefully she will do what is right for you very soon.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> So that's the conclusion you draw from all this? I guess if it was me, I would be pissed off that my wife is still doing her best to spend as little time with the family and me as possible - assuming her GNO's (with married women or singles) are consuming large amounts of time on a weekly basis.
> 
> Is there ever any time in your marriage where you are allowed to get angry without the fear of being labeled an abuser? Many social workers that I know were half nuts btw.


Not really correct. After she lost her dream job, I'd say she spent as much time with the family as possible and GNO were maybe once a week on average. This obviously changed over the last 4-5 months, but in between dream job and recently, I'd say there was a definitely solid family commitment. The problem was that she was still dealing with her identity crisis and our relationship was really strained from the dream job years. We still argued more than normal and I think I had lost her respect and trust by that point. Really I think it was me that was still holding the majority of the resentment from the bad years and I still was tough to live with - very short fuse. She was actually decent/better during that time. Up until she had the affair. ugg

No I got angry like any normal husband would. We had our ups and downs like any other couple but way more ups that down. Our sex life seemed to get better as well got older (pre dream job) Just to give you idea of the closeness we shared, we actually shared an office at work for more than a decade (pre dream job) and got along quite well. And that's a lot of togetherness. So all in all we had a great relationship prior to the dream job years. But I think during the good times, she felt very loved and supported by me, I'd say we were true best friends, and wandering never would even have been on the radar. All this is why I'm still here fighting. We were really really good for a long time.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr Blunt said:


> That is good. *Maybe also think about doing something and/or getting help with building up your self-confidence and self-worth.* Unless you are superman then you have been hurt in those two areas by the betrayal of your wife. Do not depend on your wife to do this as she has been weakened herself and probably is very limited at this time.
> ...
> Hopefully she will do what is right for you very soon.


Honesty, I am really struggling with the self-confidence and self-worth thing. My life essentially is intertwined with my wife. Heck, we've basically grown up together.* But I don't really know how to work on this.* I'm a good dad and good at my job (and it's one that I enjoy), but a rejection and betrayal at this level really shakes you to your core. Especially since I'm to only one truly fighting for my relationship right now (not that she isn't making an effort, but she has different priorities now).

I do hope her fog breaks soon and she gets some real clarity of some sort.

Thanks for your replies.


----------



## tom67

FamilyMan15 said:


> Honesty, I am really struggling with the self-confidence and self-worth thing. My life essentially is intertwined with my wife. Heck, we've basically grown up together.* But I don't really know how to work on this.* I'm a good dad and good at my job (and it's one that I enjoy), but a rejection and betrayal at this level really shakes you to your core. Especially since I'm to only one truly fighting for my relationship right now (not that she isn't making an effort, but she has different priorities now).
> 
> I do hope her fog breaks soon and she gets some real clarity of some sort.
> 
> Thanks for your replies.


Familyman what you just explained is being codependent.
MMSLP and NMMNG are your friends and a dash of IC.
Jeez OMG now I'm texting like my daughter.:banghead::banghead:


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By FamilyMan
> Honesty, I am really struggling with the self-confidence and self-worth thing. My life essentially is intertwined with my wife. Heck, we've basically grown up together. But I don't really know how to work on this. I'm a good dad and good at my job (and it's one that I enjoy), but a rejection and betrayal at this level really shakes you to your core. Especially since I'm to only one truly fighting for my relationship right now (not that she isn't making an effort, but she has different priorities now).
> 
> I do hope her fog breaks soon and she gets some real clarity of some sort.
> 
> Thanks for your replies.



I know that it shakes you to the core but see if you can use that shaking to propel/motivate you do some things for yourself that would boost your self-worth. What I did was go back to college and took the courses that I Loved not the required courses. In addition, I got into the 3 Fs; family, friends, and faith. I got much closer to the other family members and friends and then took my faith much more seriously. It did not take away all the pain but it helped a lot. *Have you tried any of those?*

My family and friends saw me suffer but I was doing a lot of the right things and their reactions built up my self-esteem. However, the biggest boost came me from me suffering, being tempted, but doing the right thing for months then years. *This gave me an internal self-worth that was not dependent on others.*

You do not have to feel bad that you are shaken to the core and struggling with self-confidence and self- esteem as anyone would be like that after such a blow as you have absorbed. Just know that your wife is NOT 100% OF YOUR LIFE and you can recover with her or without her. Hopefully you both will come back together correctly but that is not the only option.


----------



## FamilyMan15

tom67 said:


> Familyman what you just explained is being codependent.
> MMSLP and NMMNG are your friends and a dash of IC.
> Jeez OMG now I'm texting like my daughter.:banghead::banghead:


Call it what you want, but for many many years, we were both extremely happy together and never wanted anything else. I can only speak for me, but I was as happy as I could imagine 90% of the time and I think she would say the same.

I looked up signs of a codependent relationship and this is what I found:


You enable your partner’s unhealthy behaviors, and they enable yours.
You minimize your needs and preferences.
Instead of growing together, you deteriorate together.
You feel increasingly bad about yourself.
Your mood and self-respect are dictated by your partner’s mood and behavior.
You feel devalued or disrespected by your partner.
You feel frustrated or angry about how you’re being treated but you don’t speak up. Instead you “waffle between fight — getting into conflicts — or flight — keeping [your feelings to yourself].”
You feel ashamed and embarrassed about what’s really going on in your relationship.

I don't think we met most of those characteristics (during the good years). While we did typically put each other first, we looked for compromises when it wasn't what we wanted as well. We definitely grew together as people and we were both better people individually because of it. We were able to achieve things together that we couldn't have alone. We both felt good about ourselves and the strength of our relationship was something we are very proud of. We handled conflicts well and typically were able to work through things without too much trouble. We always respected each other in everything we did.

Mind you all this stuff was during the good years, but it was real. Now once the dream job happened, she started putting her career fulfillment first and I tried to control her into being the person I thought she she be and the person I wanted. That's when everything fell apart. It was downhill from there. A priority shift back to the old ways is what we need to fix this if we end up going that route.


----------



## FamilyMan15

I know it seems I am picking and choosing what advice I respond to, but understand that even the stuff I don't agree with or doesn't fit the situation this specific situation is good as it causes me to challenge my own opinions. I came her to get alternative opinions, advice and support and you guys have definitely provided all three. I am trying to keep an open mind. It's entirely possible that my views may change as the everything plays out.

Thanks again for all the replies. It's actually been pretty helpful. Just talking about it has helped at least get it out of my head all the time. This situation really sucks. Maybe I'll be a monk.


----------



## tom67

FamilyMan15 said:


> Call it what you want, but for many many years, we were both extremely happy together and never wanted anything else. I can only speak for me, but I was as happy as I could imagine 90% of the time and I think she would say the same.
> 
> I looked up signs of a codependent relationship and this is what I found:
> 
> 
> You enable your partner’s unhealthy behaviors, and they enable yours.
> You minimize your needs and preferences.
> Instead of growing together, you deteriorate together.
> You feel increasingly bad about yourself.
> Your mood and self-respect are dictated by your partner’s mood and behavior.
> You feel devalued or disrespected by your partner.
> You feel frustrated or angry about how you’re being treated but you don’t speak up. Instead you “waffle between fight — getting into conflicts — or flight — keeping [your feelings to yourself].”
> You feel ashamed and embarrassed about what’s really going on in your relationship.
> 
> I don't think we met most of those characteristics (during the good years). While we did typically put each other first, we looked for compromises when it wasn't what we wanted as well. We definitely grew together as people and we were both better people individually because of it. We were able to achieve things together that we couldn't have alone. We both felt good about ourselves and the strength of our relationship was something we are very proud of. We handled conflicts well and typically were able to work through things without too much trouble. We always respected each other in everything we did.
> 
> Mind you all this stuff was during the good years, but it was real. Now once the dream job happened, she started putting her career fulfillment first and I tried to control her into being the person I thought she she be and the person I wanted. That's when everything fell apart. It was downhill from there. A priority shift back to the old ways is what we need to fix this if we end up going that route.


Good of you to do the research but I will say over time we become/ wait/ our wives perceive us to have become a total beta.
Any way since you have been digging
Look up sh!t tests and read MMSLP!
And look up women and the limbic brain.
More links
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/

Gender Differences in Human Brain: A Review


----------



## tom67

Oh and look up frankman's thread in the general section.
Nevermind here
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/222050-wife-feels-unsupported.html


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr Blunt said:


> I know that it shakes you to the core but see if you can use that shaking to propel/motivate you do some things for yourself that would boost your self-worth. What I did was go back to college and took the courses that I Loved not the required courses. In addition, I got into the 3 Fs; family, friends, and faith. I got much closer to the other family members and friends and then took my faith much more seriously. It did not take away all the pain but it helped a lot. *Have you tried any of those?*
> 
> My family and friends saw me suffer but I was doing a lot of the right things and their reactions built up my self-esteem. However, the biggest boost came me from me suffering, being tempted, but doing the right thing for months then years. *This gave me an internal self-worth that was not dependent on others.*
> 
> You do not have to feel bad that you are shaken to the core and struggling with self-confidence and self- esteem as anyone would be like that after such a blow as you have absorbed. Just know that your wife is NOT 100% OF YOUR LIFE and you can recover with her or without her. Hopefully you both will come back together correctly but that is not the only option.


Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely take it to heart. I have been focusing on family and friends a lot (not much of a faith guy,, but maybe I'll start). I know I can recover without her. I just don't really like that choice. But I'll live. I'm strong (despite popular opinion here).


----------



## jld

You _are _a strong person. Several of us have been very impressed with your composure and ability to empathize rather than to react from insecurity and knee jerk anger. 

Take heart, FM; however this turns out, you have conducted yourself with dignity.


----------



## tom67

jld said:


> You _are _a strong person. Several of us have been very impressed with your composure and ability to empathize rather than to react from insecurity and knee jerk anger.
> 
> Take heart, FM; however this turns out, you have conducted yourself with dignity.


:iagree::iagree:
One day at a time that's all.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> You _are _a strong person. Several of us have been very impressed with your composure and ability to empathize rather than to react from insecurity and knee jerk anger.
> 
> Take heart, FM; however this turns out, you have conducted yourself with dignity.


Thanks. At the end of the day, I need to be able to say I did everything I could. 

Frankly, I still love her deeply and I am trying to protect her from herself to a certain extent. If she is a lesbian, obviously I shouldn't stand in the way of that as painful as it might be. But I need to allow her to come to a decision in an environment of support so we both know the decision is based on her true feelings, not out of guilt, not because of the kids, not because of something I forced her to do, and mostly not because of how I reacted to this situation. Honestly, I think my reaction has made her conflict greater. I'm just not making it any easier for her (maybe she thought I would just kick her out and make the decision for her). Primarily because I think that choosing a lesbian lifestyle (for her) would be a decision she would ultimately regret - I really don't think this is who she is and at the very least I want her to decide either way without outside pressure. I'm not pressuring her to stay, just encouraging her to make a decision that ultimately she can live with - not one based on loyalty or short term emotions.

I'll need you guy's help in the upcoming weeks and the situation plays out. It will be interesting to see what she shares with the counselor today. I think she's been trying to shield me from her true feelings to a certain extent. We'll see. I think today's meeting is going to be tough.


----------



## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> Frankly, I still love her deeply and I am trying to protect her from herself to a certain extent.


This is the definition of enabling. You cannot fix her and it is not a knee jerk reaction to force a cheating spouse off the fence. Let's say a man punches his wife and breaks her nose, is it a knee jerk reaction for her to leave him. It is not and to me what she did to you is far worse.

I know the information I give is counterintuitive but it has been shown to work time and time again here on TAM. The main people you are selecting to listen too have zero infidelity experience while the ones you ignore have successfully saved their marriages (some not all).

Marriage counseling is going to be another tool used by your wife to keep you in limbo. Unless the counselor specializes in infidelity (not many do), the counselor will try to rugsweep the affair. The past is in the past we need to focus on the future blah blah blah. Next he will figure out what your emotional needs are, five love languages, and work on your communication skills together. All the while he keeps depositing your checks.

TAM experience shows that counseling is waste of money unless there are two people fully and 100% committed to fixing the marriage. Sadly, this is not the case in your situation. She will use it as another rationalization to herself that she is working on the marriage but in reality she's just going thru the motions. She can tell herself I have tried everything including counseling so I am not a bad person. 

Most betrayed spouses learn this the hard way and I fear you are going to be one of them. Please understand that I am on your side and giving you the best advice on how to SAVE your marriage not end it.


----------



## Hicks

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks. At the end of the day, I need to be able to say I did everything I could.
> 
> Frankly, I still love her deeply and I am trying to protect her from herself to a certain extent. If she is a lesbian, obviously I shouldn't stand in the way of that as painful as it might be. But I need to allow her to come to a decision in an environment of support so we both know the decision is based on her true feelings, not out of guilt, not because of the kids, not because of something I forced her to do, and mostly not because of how I reacted to this situation. Honestly, I think my reaction has made her conflict greater. I'm just not making it any easier for her (maybe she thought I would just kick her out and make the decision for her). Primarily because I think that choosing a lesbian lifestyle (for her) would be a decision she would ultimately regret - I really don't think this is who she is and at the very least I want her to decide either way without outside pressure. I'm not pressuring her to stay, just encouraging her to make a decision that ultimately she can live with - not one based on loyalty or short term emotions.
> 
> I'll need you guy's help in the upcoming weeks and the situation plays out. It will be interesting to see what she shares with the counselor today. I think she's been trying to shield me from her true feelings to a certain extent. We'll see. I think today's meeting is going to be tough.


Holy crap!
Your wife is the mother to your children. You as your children's father should not be giving your wife carte blanche to sort out her feelings which if they go a certain way will shock and awe your children's lives. As a father and a husband you need to be a leader. Lead your wife man. Your children expect this of you. You were put on this earth to protect them. If you want to stay married your goal should be to get your wife to choose her marriage. Then AFTER she makes the choice to stay you have all the time in the world to watch and observe whether your wife a true partner to you or a lesbian or anything else. Give yourself the benefit of time. Every day of your life you get to decide if YOU want to be married to her. Put yourself in the drivers seat.


----------



## Hicks

How many people would choose their marriage based on "true feeliings". Would you? Your true feelings are to stick with a crappy wife who cheated on you with another woman? Or is it the sense of obligation you have to keep the family you made functioning and intact....Not many people choose things based on their "true feelings". Life is too complicated for adults to do that. You make choices based on your value system.


----------



## ButtPunch

Hicks said:


> How many people would choose their marriage based on "true feeliings". Would you? Your true feelings are to stick with a crappy wife who cheated on you with another woman? Or is it the sense of obligation you have to keep the family you made functioning and intact....Not many people choose things based on their "true feelings". Life is too complicated for adults to do that. You make choices based on your value system.


Every decision the OP makes seems to be fear based and not based on his value/belief system. Fear of divorce, financial fear, fear for his kids, etc.

We all know what Yoda says about fear.


----------



## happyman64

Contrary to popular opinion if FM really had those fears he would have cut and run already.

While fear is present he has a strong love for his wife.

He is sticking by her side. Give credit where credit is due.

His wife while a liar and cheater is having an identity crisis.

A very selfish identity crisis.

FM has decided to put her affair on the side table for now until his wife can make a decision regarding her identity.

He has decided to go to counseling with his wayward wife to see this issue through.

He has plenty of time to decide how he wants to handle her affair later.

While I hope he sets a date in his head to act for his betterment if his wife sits on the fence for too long he has chosen his course.

We can all keep telling him to dump her. Or we can support him and his marriage while they get counseling to see if a solution works for his current goal. To keep his wife and family together.

Just my two cents but give him credit where it is due, stop laying the wood to burn the witch at his feet and let him see if his goal is attainable.

It remains to be seen if his goal will mirror his wife's goal.

HM


----------



## GTdad

ButtPunch said:


> Every decision the OP makes seems to be fear based and not based on his value/belief system. Fear of divorce, financial fear, fear for his kids, etc.
> 
> We all know what Yoda says about fear.


Absolutely right. The most important lesson I learned is to make *NO* decisions out of fear. Those decisions will almost invariably be bad decisions.

FamilyMan, you need to approach this from the standpoint that whatever happens, whatever worst-case scenario your imagination can craft, you can handle it. Because you can, trust me.


----------



## ButtPunch

Wow....this lesbian thing has really thrown a curveball into standard cheater script.

I'm sorry I am just not buying it.


----------



## wmn1

ButtPunch said:


> This is the definition of enabling. You cannot fix her and it is not a knee jerk reaction to force a cheating spouse off the fence. Let's say a man punches his wife and breaks her nose, is it a knee jerk reaction for her to leave him. It is not and to me what she did you to you is far worse.
> 
> I know the information I give is counterintuitive but it has been shown to work time and time again here on TAM. The main people you are selecting to listen too have zero infidelity experience while the ones you ignore have successfully saved their marriages (some not all).
> 
> Marriage counseling is going to be another tool used by your wife to keep you in limbo. Unless the counselor specializes in infidelity (not many do), the counselor will try to rugsweep the affair. The past is in the past we need to focus on the future blah blah blah. Next he will figure out what your emotional needs are, five love languages, and work on your communication skills together.
> 
> TAM experience shows that counseling is waste of money unless there are two people fully and 100% committed to fixing the marriage. Sadly, this is not the case in your situation. She will use it as another rationalization to herself that she is working on the marriage but in reality she's just going thru the motions. She can tell herself I have tried everything including counseling so I am not a bad person.
> 
> Most betrayed spouses learn this the hard way and I fear you are going to be one of them. Please understand that I am on your side and giving you the best advice on how to SAVE your marriage not end it.


I agree 100% and you are right in that it is not knee jerk. He has an immediate right to know. he shouldn't be some cuckold who wastes months of his life just to get screwed in the end IMO


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> This is the definition of enabling. You cannot fix her and it is not a knee jerk reaction to force a cheating spouse off the fence. Let's say a man punches his wife and breaks her nose, is it a knee jerk reaction for her to leave him. It is not and to me what she did to you is far worse.
> 
> I know the information I give is counterintuitive but it has been shown to work time and time again here on TAM. The main people you are selecting to listen too have zero infidelity experience while the ones you ignore have successfully saved their marriages (some not all).
> 
> Marriage counseling is going to be another tool used by your wife to keep you in limbo. Unless the counselor specializes in infidelity (not many do), the counselor will try to rugsweep the affair. The past is in the past we need to focus on the future blah blah blah. Next he will figure out what your emotional needs are, five love languages, and work on your communication skills together. All the while he keeps depositing your checks.
> 
> TAM experience shows that counseling is waste of money unless there are two people fully and 100% committed to fixing the marriage. Sadly, this is not the case in your situation. She will use it as another rationalization to herself that she is working on the marriage but in reality she's just going thru the motions. She can tell herself I have tried everything including counseling so I am not a bad person.
> 
> Most betrayed spouses learn this the hard way and I fear you are going to be one of them. Please understand that I am on your side and giving you the best advice on how to SAVE your marriage not end it.


I do hear you. I'm not ready to begin the real marriage counseling until she is ready to 100% commit and follow the standard reconciliation rules (no contact, she's taking consistent action to repair etc). That is a non-negotiable for me and she feels the same way. We do have out first counseling appointment today, but I'm really looking at it (as are we both) as an initial assessment as to the next steps. I fully expect the counselor to recommend individual counseling for my wife to figure out her issues before tackling a possible later reconciliation through marriage counseling. I'm just trying to give her a safe space to figure her issues out right now with out making damaging changes until she is sure. I refuse to just go through the motions.

But I appreciate the warning. That is good to keep in mind.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Contrary to popular opinion if FM really had those fears he would have cut and run already.
> 
> While fear is present he has a strong love for his wife.
> 
> He is sticking by her side. Give credit where credit is due.
> 
> His wife while a liar and cheater is having an identity crisis.
> 
> A very selfish identity crisis.
> 
> FM has decided to put her affair on the side table for now until his wife can make a decision regarding her identity.
> 
> He has decided to go to counseling with his wayward wife to see this issue through.
> 
> He has plenty of time to decide how he wants to handle her affair later.
> 
> While I hope he sets a date in his head to act for his betterment if his wife sits on the fence for too long he has chosen his course.
> 
> We can all keep telling him to dump her. Or we can support him and his marriage while they get counseling to see if a solution works for his current goal. To keep his wife and family together.
> 
> Just my two cents but give him credit where it is due, stop laying the wood to burn the witch at his feet and let him see if his goal is attainable.
> 
> It remains to be seen if his goal will mirror his wife's goal.
> 
> HM


Thanks. I feel this is a fair assessment. I appreciate your support.

Understand I have no intention of sweeping the affair under the rug. Dealing with that whole mess is step 2 while supporting her while she works through this emotional confusing situation she has created for herself is step 1. Trying to deal with the affair now would never get me to step 2. Ultimately my goal is to:
1. Figure out if the marriage is salvageable and has a future
2. Fix the marriage and deal with the affair

We are on step 1.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> Wow....this lesbian thing has really thrown a curveball into standard cheater script.
> 
> I'm sorry I am just not buying it.


I do think there is something to this to some extent, I'm just not sure it's necessarily a conscious thing now.

If she is bisexual or confused, everything she did is horrible and hard to face with family/friends/kids etc and she will have to decide which life she wants to live. For her, I think that's a harder decision that "I'm gay so I have to pick this life"

If she is gay, no one would blame her for "finding herself". and all she has to do is decide and then everything else just falls into place.

I think it helps her rationalize her behavior at some level. I just don't think it's a deliberate excuse at this point; I think it's her brain helping her deal with the guilt and at least some of this has been fed by the OW. "If you are gay, you owe it to yourself to figure this out"

I'm trying to shift the focus from "am I gay" to "am I bisexual or confused" based on our history together (I know she was into me for a long long time). "am I bisexual" sets the stage for her having to make a choice vs. taking the default relationship that lines up with her orientation.


----------



## ButtPunch

OP

It is clear where you stand and the direction you are taking. So from here on I will proceed with your plan. Your wife has lost her respect and attraction for you. Forcing her off the fence would have regained you some.ie no self repecting man would put up with what you have.

However, your choice is made, and I will respect that. ithink your next step is paramount to save your marriage. You must read MMSLP and NMMNG and work on your level of attraction. You must present yourself as a rock...as a real man...a leader. These books will help you. You need to be cool calm and collected during your counseling sessions and any emotional outbursts she throws at you. 

You need to be decisive from here on out. Women want decisive men. Not the guy who let's his wife fence sit. OK Now I'm done. You follow me. READ THE BOOKS. AGAIN, READ THE BOOKS. WORK ON YOURSELF.

Your wife must truly believe that you have options and you must project that you are ok with whatever happens.

Fake it until you make it if you have to.


----------



## wmn1

tdwal said:


> Good God quit making excuses for her. There is absolutely no good excuse for what she did. You are definitely codependant and headed for a giant hurt. You have her so high up on a pedestal you can't even see her anymore.



Yep. She doesn't need space right now. She has to stop victimizing her family and husband and the longer she stretches this out, the more he will become a victim in the end. I hate it for him but he needs decisveness right now.

I am sure if he turned homosexual, his a$$ would be on the street right now. JMO


----------



## ButtPunch

wmn1 said:


> I am sure if he turned homosexual, his a$$ would be on the street right now. JMO



Without a doubt!


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> If she is gay, no one would blame her for "finding herself". and all she has to do is decide and then everything else just falls into place.
> 
> I think it helps her rationalize her behavior at some level. I just don't think it's a deliberate excuse at this point; I think it's her brain helping her deal with the guilt and at least some of this has been fed by the OW. "If you are gay, you owe it to yourself to figure this out".


 The if "she is gay, no one would blame her" thing is not only being feed by her affair partner (AP), but it is also being fed by you with your current course of action. Based on many years of real world experience in her life, you know for a fact that your wife did not find out that she was gay, she found out that she was bi. She knows this too, but as a cheater she will want to use the passively agreed to by you excuse, that by saying that she is gay, she will have a get out of jail free card that rationalizes her betrayal of you and her children. By not calling her on this now, and waiting for her to decide, you are validating the lie. When your children are living with and being raised by the AP as being your wife's and the AP's children, it will be too late to call her out on this lie.


----------



## FamilyMan15

tdwal said:


> Good God quit making excuses for her. There is absolutely no good excuse for what she did. You are definitely codependant and headed for a giant hurt. You have her so high up on a pedestal you can't even see her anymore.


I'm not making excuses. What she did was 100% wrong. Period. I'm just laying out why she might use the gay thing to make herself feel better and that could generate confusion. At the end of the day, what she did was wrong regardless of her sexual orientation. If she was gay, she should have known it, filed for a divorce, and perused that lifestyle. But if she's not, and I want to reconcile (which I do), I've got to get her to figure it out on her own before we can get to the step of rebuilding the relationship.


----------



## FamilyMan15

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> 
> It is clear where you stand and the direction you are taking. So from here on I will proceed with your plan. Your wife has lost her respect and attraction for you. Forcing her off the fence would have regained you some.ie no self repecting man would put up with what you have.
> 
> However, your choice is made, and I will respect that. ithink your next step is paramount to save your marriage. You must read MMSLP and NMMNG and work on your level of attraction. You must present yourself as a rock...as a real man...a leader. These books will help you. You need to be cool calm and collected during your counseling sessions and any emotional outbursts she throws at you.
> 
> You need to be decisive from here on out. Women want decisive men. Not the guy who let's his wife fence sit. OK Now I'm done. You follow me. READ THE BOOKS. AGAIN, READ THE BOOKS. WORK ON YOURSELF.
> 
> Your wife must truly believe that you have options and you must project that you are ok with whatever happens.
> 
> Fake it until you make it if you have to.


I hear you - I can do that.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> The if "she is gay, no one would blame her" thing is not only being feed by her affair partner (AP), but it is also being fed by you with your current course of action. Based on many years of real world experience in her life, you know for a fact that your wife did not find out that she was gay, she found out that she was bi. She knows this too, but as a cheater she will want to use the passively agreed to by you excuse, that by saying that she is gay, she will have a get out of jail free card that rationalizes her betrayal of you and her children. By not calling her on this now, and waiting for her to decide, you are validating the lie. When your children are living with and being raised by the AP as being your wife's and the AP's children, it will be too late to call her out on this lie.


I am calling her out on it FYI. My line is "your are either bi or confused, but I know you are not gay." But she needs to realize/decide this on her own otherwise 6 months down the line with me we'd be in the same place if she really is gay.


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> I am calling her out on it FYI. My line is "your are either bi or confused, but I know you are not gay." But she needs to realize/decide this on her own otherwise 6 months down the line with me we'd be in the same place if she really is gay.



let me ask you this. If she had cheated on you with another guy and was sitting there with an 'identity problem' and wondering if she wanted you or him, would you still have her living at home and still be taking the steps you are ?


----------



## happyman64

tdwal said:


> Your just telling him to try to nice her back, you know better than that. She is just stringing him along keeping him in limbo. She has already left as a previous poster stated. She is feeling guilty about destroying her family so she is sitting on the fence. You need to let her go and work on yourself, you are just delaying the hurt. Tell her to leave and go find her way and that you will find someone who is not a liar and a cheater to raise your children.
> 
> How selfish and self absorbed can a decent person be to break their vows and destroy their family because they think they are gay. Even if she is she already made a commitment, look how selfish it is for no good reason to destroy other people because it makes her feel good. She is not worth your time dude.


Not true. What I am saying is for him to give her a little time to decide who she wants to be.

If she chooses the gay lifestyle then the marriage is over.

If she chooses the straight lifestyle with FM then the consequences and hard work begin to repair all the damage.

He needs to set a date in his head when he reaches the "enough is enough" stage and hands her divorce papers.

He should not allow her to fence sit for long. FM deserves better.

What you all want to disregard is that they will have a relationship for a long time because they have kids together. It is better to have a healthy relationship with her no matter the outcome of their marriage due to the kids.

Is she a cheater? Yes.
Is she a liar? Yes.

Has she created a pretty big mess that she is ashamed of? It sounds like she is.

FM wants reconciliation. He is clear about that. It is not time to expose, kick her out or hand her divorce papers yet.

Again, it is just my opinion.

HM


----------



## wmn1

happyman64 said:


> Not true. What I am saying is for him to give her a little time to decide who she wants to be.
> 
> If she chooses the gay lifestyle then the marriage is over.
> 
> If she chooses the straight lifestyle with FM then the consequences and hard work begin to repair all the damage.
> 
> He needs to set a date in his head when he reaches the "enough is enough" stage and hands her divorce papers.
> 
> He should not allow her to fence sit for long. FM deserves better.
> 
> What you all want to disregard is that they will have a relationship for a long time because they have kids together. It is better to have a healthy relationship with her no matter the outcome of their marriage due to the kids.
> 
> Is she a cheater? Yes.
> Is she a liar? Yes.
> 
> Has she created a pretty big mess that she is ashamed of? It sounds like she is.
> 
> FM wants reconciliation. He is clear about that. It is not time to expose, kick her out or hand her divorce papers yet.
> 
> Again, it is just my opinion.
> 
> HM


Below is my opinion, HM. 

It doesn't matter whether she decides her sexual identity or not. She cheated plain and simple and won't detach. She will drag this thing out.

1) If she determines that she is lesbian, she's gone. Then he would have wasted months of time coddling her when he gets screwed over in the end. If she determines she's 'Bi', and with all due respect to the bi-sexual people here as I am not throwing a grenade at them, she then doubles the number of potential people that can lure her into an affair later in life, especially after she had one before and trust wil not be there for her. Those 'girl weekends' in NYC for shopping will now be a trigger for FM. 

2) I had a best friend, more like a brother to me, whose wife left him for a family friend while she was pregnant with his kid. He, despite his friends best efforts, held on to this belief of 'saving the marriage'. Quite stoic. Until the FIL decided to call and rough him up verbally. It was done at that point. He moved on quite fast and got remarried and has joint custody. He laughs at how badly he handled the initial weeks after Dday. I understand it. His being betrayed hurt me very badly too. It was actually in some ways worse than when I was betrayed. And there were no sexual identity issues there either. She's had a week plus of staying at home, enjoying life as if nothing happened, with no timeline in place. There are no consequences to her actions at this point.

3) What is she comes back and says "I'm straight'. Then is it a situation where it will be rugswept and all is good in life ? 

So based on what he wants will result in consequences for him. But with no timeline in place and coddling someone who has betrayed him in an evil way, he has set himself up to get body slammed again.

It's sad, he deserves better but we here can't make a stand for him. It's not looking good. 

I wish him the best but in my world, she'd be out, not yesterday, but last week


----------



## G.J.

FamilyMan15 said:


> I am calling her out on it FYI. My line is "your are either bi or confused, but I know you are not gay." But she needs to realize/decide this on her own otherwise 6 months down the line with me we'd be in the same place if she really is gay.


If she has Contact with the OW how can she make her mind up on her own ?


----------



## Chaparral

If she won't have sex with you why do you think she hasn't made up her mind already? Ifvshe were trying to save her family she would be after you night and day.

She started going out on gno's, drinking and got laid by a woman that played on her emotions. Just like findingmyway did to married women. Have you brought up the fact that lesbian or not her girlfriend has no more morals than the nearest dog in heat? Have showed her how she wants to destroy a marriage so she can have your kids to raise?

Have you talked to a lawyer to see how cheating and turning gay will affect child custody. Have you documented her running around at night, drinking , unprotected sex, spending?

Your wife isn't acting like a mother or a wife. If your marriage was in trouble there were many ways to work on it. This just looks like a selfish fling for herself and everyone else can go to hell.

What research Have you done on the effects on children of gay parents?


----------



## bfree

G.J. said:


> If she has Contact with the OW how can she make her mind up on her own ?


That's why I said that NC is imperative. That would be my first and non negotiable dealbreaker.


----------



## Chaparral

Kids of gay parents fare worse, study finds, but research draws fire from experts - CBS News
Family Research Council


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> I am calling her out on it FYI. My line is "your are either bi or confused, but I know you are not gay." But she needs to realize/decide this on her own otherwise 6 months down the line with me we'd be in the same place if she really is gay.


 In your first sentence you claim that you are "calling her out on" her not being gay, and then you directly contradict this in the next sentence by saying that your actions are being dictated by the possibility that "she really is gay". She and her affair partner (AP) have stacked the deck, why are you playing their game?


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> That's why I said that NC is imperative. That would be my first and non negotiable dealbreaker.


I agree 100%. It's on my list.


----------



## FamilyMan15

​


G.J. said:


> If she has Contact with the OW how can she make her mind up on her own ?


She is on no contact. She asked the woman for space to figure things out and to please not contact her during that time.


----------



## FamilyMan15

wmn1 said:


> let me ask you this. If she had cheated on you with another guy and was sitting there with an 'identity problem' and wondering if she wanted you or him, would you still have her living at home and still be taking the steps you are ?


It would be a different deal. She would need to choose. There's no confusion there.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Not true. What I am saying is for him to give her a little time to decide who she wants to be.
> 
> If she chooses the gay lifestyle then the marriage is over.
> 
> If she chooses the straight lifestyle with FM then the consequences and hard work begin to repair all the damage.
> 
> He needs to set a date in his head when he reaches the "enough is enough" stage and hands her divorce papers.
> 
> He should not allow her to fence sit for long. FM deserves better.
> 
> What you all want to disregard is that they will have a relationship for a long time because they have kids together. It is better to have a healthy relationship with her no matter the outcome of their marriage due to the kids.
> 
> Is she a cheater? Yes.
> Is she a liar? Yes.
> 
> Has she created a pretty big mess that she is ashamed of? It sounds like she is.
> 
> FM wants reconciliation. He is clear about that. It is not time to expose, kick her out or hand her divorce papers yet.
> 
> Again, it is just my opinion.
> 
> HM


I think this is all true. Regardless of how this plays out, we will be in each other's life due to the kids, so keeping a decent relationship is important.


----------



## FamilyMan15

wmn1 said:


> 3) What is she comes back and says "I'm straight'. Then is it a situation where it will be rugswept and all is good in life ?


Absolutely not. That's when the long recovery process starts and a large part of that is recovery and making things right.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cactusflower said:


> How are you two getting along during these times?
> 
> I'm sorry if I missed it, but are you sleeping in the same bed?
> 
> Any affection between the two of you?
> 
> Is she bringing up anything in regards to your marriage?
> 
> How are you relatively sure that she isn't contacting the OW?


We are both pretty emotional, but actually civil and as friendly as can be expected. Especially around the kids. We are sleeping in the same bed, holding hands some, some cuddling at night, but it's somewhat forced/uncomfortable. Nothing beyond that. We discuss the situation fairly regularly.

As far as contact, she says she's not and I'm not 100% either way. She's been upfront with everything since the discovery, and said she would tell me if contact was made (I don't believe that) but also says that she knows she can't make a good decision with her feet in both worlds. I guess that's the reason I believe her mostly. I think if contact has been made, it would have been minimal at most. She's been very accountable for her time/location. I think if I checked her phone all the time it would drive me crazy and she would have probably deleted it anyway. I've been in heightened awareness mode and haven't seen anything off. I'm going to ask again in counseling today. If she is maintaining contact, it's a deal breaker to me. Then she is really just stringing me along.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Will you tell us how the counseling went?

Hopefully some important questions will be asked and some answers forthcoming


----------



## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> I looked up signs of a codependent relationship and this is what I found:
> 
> 
> You enable your partner’s unhealthy behaviors, and they enable yours.
> You minimize your needs and preferences.
> Instead of growing together, you deteriorate together.
> You feel increasingly bad about yourself.
> Your mood and self-respect are dictated by your partner’s mood and behavior.
> You feel devalued or disrespected by your partner.
> You feel frustrated or angry about how you’re being treated but you don’t speak up. Instead you “waffle between fight — getting into conflicts — or flight — keeping [your feelings to yourself].”
> You feel ashamed and embarrassed about what’s really going on in your relationship.
> 
> I don't think we met most of those characteristics (during the good years). While we did typically put each other first, we looked for compromises when it wasn't what we wanted as well. We definitely grew together as people and we were both better people individually because of it. We were able to achieve things together that we couldn't have alone. We both felt good about ourselves and the strength of our relationship was something we are very proud of. We handled conflicts well and typically were able to work through things without too much trouble. We always respected each other in everything we did.
> 
> Mind you all this stuff was during the good years, but it was real. Now once the dream job happened, she started putting her career fulfillment first and I tried to control her into being the person I thought she she be and the person I wanted. That's when everything fell apart. It was downhill from there. A priority shift back to the old ways is what we need to fix this if we end up going that route.


I've got to say, I think your relationship *easily* meets every single one of these signs of a codependent relationship. You argue that don't agree, but only during the good years. We're not talking about the good years now, we're talking about right now. Right now, you're extremely co-dependant.

I want to suggest that you consider reading through my long reconciliation thread. There are so many perfect similarities I see in your story compared to mine, so many of your posts sound exactly like mine from just a few years ago. The "I don't want to force a decision on her when her most recent memories of us together are negative, but positive with the OW" or "I want to respect her privacy (not checking phone, e-mail, computer, FB, etc.) in order to start rebuilding trust and not risk setting her off and coming to a bad decision" or "she's just confused and needs time to heal" type of comments. Or even more so, the assurances that you have a plan in place with firm deal breakers and deadlines in mind that you'll hold to. Like "I'll give her some time, but not a lot of time before she has to make up her mind" or "if she does decide that she's straight and wants to come home, she'll have to commit to this, this and that first and then start a reconciliation plan" or any of your statements saying that you'll hold her accountable "just as soon as [certain event] happens."

I don't mean to say you're a liar, nor am I trying to be critical. As I said, I've been there, I said all of the same things, I defended against those on TAM with all of the same reasoning and excuses. I'm not saying they were all right and I was completely wrong, but certainly in hindsight I was fooling myself quite a bit and many of them were very right. You're in a lousy situation for sure, and I get that you feel somewhat responsible for a lot of what has happened here. TAMer's are often very quick to crucify the cheaters completely, but usually even the BS shares a certain degree of the responsibility as well. I get why you are afraid as well, believe me I do, but I seriously suggest you stop and ask yourself how much of what you believe is because your fear is driving your decision making?

Also, don't trust your wife right now. I find it incredibly hard to believe that because her husband is allowing her to have this time to decide her sexuality, that she isn't actually spending most of her time/energy staying connected with the OW and maybe planning her exit strategy. One question I'll ask, is what was the OW's response to the NC request? Did she respond at all? Was she angry/upset? If not, I've got to believe that they have taken the affair deeper underground. Remember, she's likely very afraid as well, not wanting to make a mistake she'll regret so she's unwilling to leave you now, but as you said she believes she's in love with this other woman and those emotions will drive her to connect with the OW if she feels she has the opportunity to do so without getting caught and risking her ability to still choose between the two of you.

Another possible consideration. When my wife pledged NC the first two times, she took a bunch of steps to make it look real. She showed me the NC letter and that it had been sent, she showed me her phone a few times and how it had no texts/calls from the OM, including on the phone bill so I could believe that. She attended MC with me as a show of commitment. In both instances, she had just taken the affair further underground. She wasn't sad or distraught over losing her lover because she had never lost him. He didn't respond to the NC letter or call/text her because they got secret burner phones they were using. Her car GPS never went near his home because she took the bus or he picked her up after that, etc. When she was caught the last time and committed to NC for real, it was a completely different story. She was miserable and cried for days. We had to take away her car keys (with her insistence) so that she wouldn't be tempted to go see him. He started texting and messaging her on all potential platforms (e-mail, Facebook, text, etc.) trying to reach her because she wouldn't respond to him. Those were the signs of a real NC with someone she had developed deep feelings for. How does this compare to your situation?


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> But I need to allow her to come to a decision in an environment of support so we both know the decision is based on her true feelings, not out of guilt, not because of the kids


 Why "not because of the kids"? What about your children's feelings, why do they not matter? You have stated that as a parent that one of the main reasons that you are willing to fight for this marriage is because of the kids. Why as a bi parent is she off the hook? Lets face it, if not for the children, you would be far more willing to say to heck with this betrayal and move on. She is in an affair fog and not thinking clearly. As the only clear thinking parent, your children need you to stick up for them and their best interests. Right now you are not doing this, as your wife's feelings are all that seems to matter to both you and your wife. Sorry to be so blunt, but you will not get a second chance at this.


----------



## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> Frankly, I still love her deeply and I am trying to protect her from herself to a certain extent. If she is a lesbian, obviously I shouldn't stand in the way of that as painful as it might be. But I need to allow her to come to a decision in an environment of support so we both know the decision is based on her true feelings, not out of guilt, not because of the kids, not because of something I forced her to do, and mostly not because of how I reacted to this situation. Honestly, I think my reaction has made her conflict greater. I'm just not making it any easier for her (maybe she thought I would just kick her out and make the decision for her). Primarily because I think that choosing a lesbian lifestyle (for her) would be a decision she would ultimately regret - I really don't think this is who she is and at the very least I want her to decide either way without outside pressure. I'm not pressuring her to stay, just encouraging her to make a decision that ultimately she can live with - not one based on loyalty or short term emotions.


I had to respond to this as well. For starters, what do you mean "if she is a lesbian?" You already *KNOW* that she is not a lesbian, it's obvious and you've even said so yourself. Saying this now makes it seem like you are somewhat desperate to come up with excuses for her...

She is in an affair fog, so she absolutely will not be capable of coming to a decision that is based in reality. It's just not possible, we're all telling you it's not. I'll tell you what's going on, she already KNOWS what she wants. She wants to be with the OW, that's what she wants. Everything else, the "am I a lesbian" or "I'm sorry you've been hurt" or "I need time to find out who I am" and all of that is only being said in order to serve two purposes. One, to reduce her guilt/shame over what she's done, including trying to lessen your pain by giving you some hope so that you're let down gently. And two, to give her time to make plans to leave and make certain that she is making the right choice. (After all, while in the affair she was essentially living in fantasy land. Now that it's more "real" it's natural for her to second guess herself and want to take a moment to make sure that what she wants is really what she actually wants)


I think I said it earlier, but really seriously consider meeting with an attorney and filing for divorce and a temporary emergency custody order. Again, this would not have to mean that you are accepting that your marriage is over, and it has nothing to do with trying to punish your wife. The divorce process takes a very long time, and you can give her that time if you like to make up her mind and prove which direction she'll ultimately go. (Like if she says she'll commit to you, she'll have time to prove she means it. If she says she's a lesbian and wants the other woman, she'll have time to experience that life for a little while and realize the mistake she's made) You have ever excuse in the world to do so, and you'll be ensuring the best interests of your children as well. You can explain all of this to your wife very clearly, and if she gets and stays angry, then she clearly doesn't regret the affair or accept the responsibility for it. If she does accept it and understand, even while somewhat disappointed perhaps, that will be a very good sign. She'll realize she is on the clock now, and you are serious about your boundaries and expectations.

Without this, I don't think she has any reason to take you seriously, her focus will still be primarily on her affair fog driven fantasy and the OW.


----------



## ButtPunch

cdbaker said:


> I think I said it earlier, but really seriously consider meeting with an attorney and filing for divorce and a temporary emergency custody order.


QFT....OP you need to protect your kids. I think given your situation a temporary emergency custody order would be a no brainer. 9 times out of 10 whoever has temporary custody gets custody. 

She may be planning this herself if she is getting coached.


----------



## TRy

@OP: As you will see if you review other threads on this and other sites, the standard cheater’s script will have the cheater saying that although they love you, they are not (romantically) in love with you. The cheater’s script will also have them reinvent your marital history, and will often have the cheater saying that they were never (romantically) in love with you, even though you know otherwise. This is what your wife is doing when she says that she is gay, because as a gay person she could never have been (romantically) in love with you. 

By now claiming to be gay, she would be denying the truth of the good years of your marriage. You need to call her out on this to her directly, and when speaking to the MC. Tell your wife that your marriage was not a lie. That you know that she at one point she loved you and was (romantically) in love with you, and therefore she is bi and not gay. Tell her that she can decide on her own if she wants to destroy the marriage, but she does not get to decide for the both of you on the truth of your marriage and history.


----------



## bfree

TRy said:


> In your first sentence you claim that you are "calling her out on" her not being gay, and then you directly contradict this in the next sentence by saying that your actions are being dictated by the possibility that "she really is gay". She and her affair partner (AP) have stacked the deck, why are you playing their game?


I think he said he's giving her time to come to the conclusion that she's not gay. In actuality he cannot tell her she's straight or bi. She needs to get there on get own.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> Why "not because of the kids"? What about your children's feelings, why do they not matter? You have stated that as a parent that one of the main reasons that you are willing to fight for this marriage is because of the kids. Why as a bi parent is she off the hook? Lets face it, if not for the children, you would be far more willing to say to heck with this betrayal and move on. She is in an affair fog and not thinking clearly. As the only clear thinking parent, your children need you to stick up for them and their best interests. Right now you are not doing this, as your wife's feelings are all that seems to matter to both you and your wife. Sorry to be so blunt, but you will not get a second chance at this.


Just to clarify, I ment I didn't want to to stay JUST because of the kids. Obviously the kids are a lot of the equation, but she needs to stay for me too.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> I've got to say, I think your relationship *easily* meets every single one of these signs of a codependent relationship. You argue that don't agree, but only during the good years.
> ...
> I want to suggest that you consider reading through my long reconciliation thread.
> ...
> Also, don't trust your wife right now. I find it incredibly hard to believe that because her husband is allowing her to have this time to decide her sexuality, that she isn't actually spending most of her time/energy staying connected with the OW and maybe planning her exit strategy. One question I'll ask, is what was the OW's response to the NC request?


Yes - our relationship in the bad years was bad. I don't think it was codependent, maybe just plain dysfunctional. She definitely wasn't dependant on me. I'll check out your thread thanks.

I don't trust her at all. She agreed to the NC because she needed to make sure what she wanted. The OW agreed as well because she wanted to make sure it was the right decision as well. My wife is really struggling with it frankly and has been a basket case since. I told her today that NC was a non-negotiable and if she wanted to maintain or reach out to her, we would need to separate.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> She is in an affair fog, so she absolutely will not be capable of coming to a decision that is based in reality. It's just not possible, we're all telling you it's not. I'll tell you what's going on, she already KNOWS what she wants. She wants to be with the OW, that's what she wants. Everything else, the "am I a lesbian" or "I'm sorry you've been hurt" or "I need time to find out who I am" and all of that is only being said in order to serve two purposes. One, to reduce her guilt/shame over what she's done, including trying to lessen your pain by giving you some hope so that you're let down gently. And two, to give her time to make plans to leave and make certain that she is making the right choice. (After all, while in the affair she was essentially living in fantasy land. Now that it's more "real" it's natural for her to second guess herself and want to take a moment to make sure that what she wants is really what she actually wants)
> ..
> Without this, I don't think she has any reason to take you seriously, her focus will still be primarily on her affair fog driven fantasy and the OW.


As more time goes by, I think there is a good chance this may be true. I'll need to consider the next steps carefully.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> By now claiming to be gay, she would be denying the truth of the good years of your marriage. You need to call her out on this to her directly, and when speaking to the MC. Tell your wife that your marriage was not a lie. That you know that she at one point she loved you and was (romantically) in love with you, and therefore she is bi and not gay. Tell her that she can decide on her own if she wants to destroy the marriage, but she does not get to decide for the both of you on the truth of your marriage and history.


She's not denying the good years of marriage. And I told her exactly what you said (that she is bi and therefore a choice). She said "I just don't know any more". Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what she thinks.


----------



## farsidejunky

I have stayed largely in the lurking department on your thread, brother. But the more you describe your wife's demeanor, reactions, and overall attitude towards you, the more I think she's gone.

FWIW, I think you are handling this the right way. But she is struggling because I bet her feelings are with the OW.

What is your timeline?


----------



## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> Yes - our relationship in the bad years was bad. I don't think it was codependent, maybe just plain dysfunctional. She definitely wasn't dependant on me. I'll check out your thread thanks.
> 
> I don't trust her at all. *She agreed to the NC because she needed to make sure what she wanted. The OW agreed as well because she wanted to make sure it was the right decision as well.* My wife is really struggling with it frankly and has been a basket case since. I told her today that NC was a non-negotiable and if she wanted to maintain or reach out to her, we would need to separate.


To clarify, your wife *SAYS* she agreed to NC for that reason. The OW also has *SAID* she agreed with this decision, but you can't know if either of these statements are actually true. I understand that you don't trust her, but if it doesn't pass the sniff test, then you shouldn't believe her positions their positions on this either.

Since you seem to have a timeline in mind, how long do you want to give her to make up her mind? Or more importantly, how long will you give her before you make up your mind on how to proceed?


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr Blunt said:


> Will you tell us how the counseling went?
> 
> Hopefully some important questions will be asked and some answers forthcoming


It went ok. An hour was far to short. Mostly introductory stuff. The counselor recommended individual therapy first for my wife before trying MC. It's what I figured would happen. She's going next week. The counselor seems competent and has good insights.

One thing did come up. We had a NC deal and if the OW reached out, she was supposed to tell me. Well the OW reached out yesterday and the wife didn't say anything until I asked her point blank in the session today (and I think she probably only told me because she had told the counselor in a short breakout session before). Apparently, the OW was checking to see if MC was set up. The wife looked visibly upset last night and I figured that was what happened. 

NC and complete open access is a non-negotiable for me. She can't have both worlds if she wants to live here. As there won't be any reason to figure things out. If she wants both worlds, a separation is the next step. I'm losing my resolve to stay strong. I told her to let me know what her intent was tonight. We'll see. 

I'm 90% sure forcing the issue will cause a separation which default the win to the OW since we are on life support and they are all lovely. I guess we'll find out. I just don't think I can live with constantly wondering where she is or who she is talking to while we are living together.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cactusflower said:


> That's operating under the assumption that she's being honest and really feels conflicted about possibly being gay.
> 
> Or she's using this as a way to garner more time and take her relationship underground.


If she wasn't conflicted, she would just do it and make the change. Dragging it out would just make us both miserable.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> To clarify, your wife *SAYS* she agreed to NC for that reason. The OW also has *SAID* she agreed with this decision, but you can't know if either of these statements are actually true. I understand that you don't trust her, but if it doesn't pass the sniff test, then you shouldn't believe her positions their positions on this either.
> 
> Since you seem to have a timeline in mind, how long do you want to give her to make up her mind? Or more importantly, how long will you give her before you make up your mind on how to proceed?


You are exactly right. 
As to the time, I don't know. I can say it's getting shorter and short as time goes by.


----------



## FamilyMan15

farsidejunky said:


> I have stayed largely in the lurking department on your thread, brother. But the more you describe your wife's demeanor, reactions, and overall attitude towards you, the more I think she's gone.
> 
> FWIW, I think you are handling this the right way. But she is struggling because I bet her feelings are with the OW.
> 
> What is your timeline?


I grow to think you are right. My read right now is that she wants to be with the OW and is making sure. Timeline is shortening as that becomes more apparent. But I'm reluctant to push as I'm not sure and the more time that passes for her, the more the feelings for the OW lessen ASSUMING a valid NC. I think she was sure she was going with the OW last week, so maybe I'm making some progress. At the very least, she has seen the non-jerk me for a week, so at least she has better information to evaluate.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cactusflower said:


> That's all cheaters though. That's every thread on here. That's what I've done in the past and that's what others on here are going through as we speak. They all say that they are conflicted, but in the mean time they are still with the other person. Your wife just so happens to say she may be gay. Same outcome.
> 
> *If you caught her in mid-affair and she discussed having children with the OW, what was her explanation as to why she didn't leave you?* It wasn't as if she came clean.


Well, she's not with the other person presently. Her tentative plan before I caught her was to separate from me and the OW next month (by getting her own place) and figure out what she wanted on her own. Don't know if the OW would have respected this, but whatever. So I guess she didn't didn't have time to execute the plan. Our arrangement now is that instead of living someplace else, she'll live here and just separate from the OW and see a counselor (in my favor slightly) . She may still move out. Who knows. I may ask her to.


----------



## ButtPunch

> We had a NC deal and if the OW reached out, she was supposed to tell me. Well the OW reached out yesterday and the wife didn't say anything.
> 
> *NC and complete open access is a non-negotiable for me.*



OP

Well there's your answer. Are you going to give her another ultimatum because she has already broken your first one. 

She broke your one boundary and now it's time to go scorched Earth on her a$$. If you don't you sir have bigger problems than your marriage. You haven't had that boundary down for a week and she has already pi$$Ed on it just like we told you she would.


----------



## MarriedTex

So, let's get this straight. You set boundary of "no contact." The boundary is broken less than a week after it is set and she does not inform you.

What does that tell you about her priorities? Does it sound like someone who's all in? She's sorry about hurting you the same way somebody's sorry that they dropped a glass dish and let it shatter. They want to clean up the mess and minimize it, but - at the end of the day - they're just glad they didn't drop the shiny piece of crystal still in the cupboard.

You're putting yourself through misery just to say "you tried." Upon revelation of the undisclosed contact, my gut feeling would have been to stand up, walk out of the room and set an appointment with the lawyer. 

Only way to salvage this is to put her in a position where she has to fight FOR you and for her family life. ***** GF is the fantasy. You're the boring reality to her right now. She can't make up her mind. Well, fine, you'll make it up for her. 

It probably won't change the outcome. You're fighting a lost cause right now, anyway. But, right now you're both losing & playing the role of the chump. I feel sorry for your situation. But I feel more sorry that you're sitting by and allowing her to let you twist in the wind. Take her Plan B option off the table (i.e. You and the Kids) and it just may start to look more appealing to her.


----------



## ButtPunch

OP is telling her "OK no contact.....startinggggg now."


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Wow, this WW is very selfish. She's a cancer to you at the present time. Get the chemo, go under the knife and get rid of this disease. This is one giant temper tantrum over not being able to do her dream job and make it her first priority in her life. Good God man, wake up!


----------



## G.J.

Is there any time during the day she can cheat seeing the OW
or are you past checking and taking her word ?


----------



## sidney2718

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm not making excuses. What she did was 100% wrong. Period. I'm just laying out why she might use the gay thing to make herself feel better and that could generate confusion. At the end of the day, what she did was wrong regardless of her sexual orientation. If she was gay, she should have known it, filed for a divorce, and perused that lifestyle. But if she's not, and I want to reconcile (which I do), I've got to get her to figure it out on her own before we can get to the step of rebuilding the relationship.


She may not have known she was gay up until her first encounter with the OW. That may have rocked her to her foundations.

I still think that you are handling this very well. But I also think that you should be very careful about the advice you get here. Many seem to be treating it just like any old affair. It almost certainly isn't. And most here have had no experience with a marriage partner discovering that they are at least bisexual if not gay.

You and she had a successful marriage for a long number of years. You'd like to keep that. Unless she's far more evil than you think, she isn't faking her dilemma. She needs time to come to an understanding of what she really is. And that requires, among other things, an IC who has had some experience along these lines. And it may even require that she spend some time talking to her former affair partner.

I know that's strange advice. But perhaps I can put it this way. Imagine a perfect marriage, complete with children and a long time together, in which one partner suddenly discovers that their partner is their long lost brother.

What do they do? Children are off the table. But why not stay together? Or why stay together, or what?

FM, your present situation is a little like that. She doesn't know what to do, and you don't know what to do either. Time is your ally here. I think your relationship is worth a couple of months of your time.


----------



## ButtPunch

OMFG....Really!


----------



## sidney2718

tdwal said:


> You got to be kidding, staying in limbo for a couple of months. You guys just keep trying push him toward the wrong direction.


As soon as she moves out or the OP files for divorce or something like that, the focus will shift from who the WW is to how to handle the changes in their lives.

The resulting confusion, anger, sadness, and so on will last more than a couple of months and at the end of that, repair of the marriage will, in my opinion, be impossible.

What I advise is waiting a bit and then when things become more clear, both to the OP and the WW, act quickly and decisively, knowing that you gave the marriage its best shot.

What do I think *will* happen? That's an entirely different question, but if you want to know I think his wife is bi and I think that his marriage is doomed.

But the OP came here for help in saving his marriage. TAM is dedicated to the notion that we should try to help the OP as best we can toward his goal. So I push for the best path I think will give the OP what he wants.


----------



## wmn1

cdbaker said:


> I've got to say, I think your relationship *easily* meets every single one of these signs of a codependent relationship. You argue that don't agree, but only during the good years. We're not talking about the good years now, we're talking about right now. Right now, you're extremely co-dependant.
> 
> I want to suggest that you consider reading through my long reconciliation thread. There are so many perfect similarities I see in your story compared to mine, so many of your posts sound exactly like mine from just a few years ago. The "I don't want to force a decision on her when her most recent memories of us together are negative, but positive with the OW" or "I want to respect her privacy (not checking phone, e-mail, computer, FB, etc.) in order to start rebuilding trust and not risk setting her off and coming to a bad decision" or "she's just confused and needs time to heal" type of comments. Or even more so, the assurances that you have a plan in place with firm deal breakers and deadlines in mind that you'll hold to. Like "I'll give her some time, but not a lot of time before she has to make up her mind" or "if she does decide that she's straight and wants to come home, she'll have to commit to this, this and that first and then start a reconciliation plan" or any of your statements saying that you'll hold her accountable "just as soon as [certain event] happens."
> 
> I don't mean to say you're a liar, nor am I trying to be critical. As I said, I've been there, I said all of the same things, I defended against those on TAM with all of the same reasoning and excuses. I'm not saying they were all right and I was completely wrong, but certainly in hindsight I was fooling myself quite a bit and many of them were very right. You're in a lousy situation for sure, and I get that you feel somewhat responsible for a lot of what has happened here. TAMer's are often very quick to crucify the cheaters completely, but usually even the BS shares a certain degree of the responsibility as well. I get why you are afraid as well, believe me I do, but I seriously suggest you stop and ask yourself how much of what you believe is because your fear is driving your decision making?
> 
> Also, don't trust your wife right now. I find it incredibly hard to believe that because her husband is allowing her to have this time to decide her sexuality, that she isn't actually spending most of her time/energy staying connected with the OW and maybe planning her exit strategy. One question I'll ask, is what was the OW's response to the NC request? Did she respond at all? Was she angry/upset? If not, I've got to believe that they have taken the affair deeper underground. Remember, she's likely very afraid as well, not wanting to make a mistake she'll regret so she's unwilling to leave you now, but as you said she believes she's in love with this other woman and those emotions will drive her to connect with the OW if she feels she has the opportunity to do so without getting caught and risking her ability to still choose between the two of you.
> 
> Another possible consideration. When my wife pledged NC the first two times, she took a bunch of steps to make it look real. She showed me the NC letter and that it had been sent, she showed me her phone a few times and how it had no texts/calls from the OM, including on the phone bill so I could believe that. She attended MC with me as a show of commitment. In both instances, she had just taken the affair further underground. She wasn't sad or distraught over losing her lover because she had never lost him. He didn't respond to the NC letter or call/text her because they got secret burner phones they were using. Her car GPS never went near his home because she took the bus or he picked her up after that, etc. When she was caught the last time and committed to NC for real, it was a completely different story. She was miserable and cried for days. We had to take away her car keys (with her insistence) so that she wouldn't be tempted to go see him. He started texting and messaging her on all potential platforms (e-mail, Facebook, text, etc.) trying to reach her because she wouldn't respond to him. Those were the signs of a real NC with someone she had developed deep feelings for. How does this compare to your situation?


agreed and very good insight Baker


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> It would be a different deal. She would need to choose. There's no confusion there.



so cheating on you with a woman is not as bad as cheating on you with a guy ?


----------



## wmn1

cdbaker said:


> I had to respond to this as well. For starters, what do you mean "if she is a lesbian?" You already *KNOW* that she is not a lesbian, it's obvious and you've even said so yourself. Saying this now makes it seem like you are somewhat desperate to come up with excuses for her...
> 
> She is in an affair fog, so she absolutely will not be capable of coming to a decision that is based in reality. It's just not possible, we're all telling you it's not. I'll tell you what's going on, she already KNOWS what she wants. She wants to be with the OW, that's what she wants. Everything else, the "am I a lesbian" or "I'm sorry you've been hurt" or "I need time to find out who I am" and all of that is only being said in order to serve two purposes. One, to reduce her guilt/shame over what she's done, including trying to lessen your pain by giving you some hope so that you're let down gently. And two, to give her time to make plans to leave and make certain that she is making the right choice. (After all, while in the affair she was essentially living in fantasy land. Now that it's more "real" it's natural for her to second guess herself and want to take a moment to make sure that what she wants is really what she actually wants)
> 
> 
> I think I said it earlier, but really seriously consider meeting with an attorney and filing for divorce and a temporary emergency custody order. Again, this would not have to mean that you are accepting that your marriage is over, and it has nothing to do with trying to punish your wife. The divorce process takes a very long time, and you can give her that time if you like to make up her mind and prove which direction she'll ultimately go. (Like if she says she'll commit to you, she'll have time to prove she means it. If she says she's a lesbian and wants the other woman, she'll have time to experience that life for a little while and realize the mistake she's made) You have ever excuse in the world to do so, and you'll be ensuring the best interests of your children as well. You can explain all of this to your wife very clearly, and if she gets and stays angry, then she clearly doesn't regret the affair or accept the responsibility for it. If she does accept it and understand, even while somewhat disappointed perhaps, that will be a very good sign. She'll realize she is on the clock now, and you are serious about your boundaries and expectations.
> 
> Without this, I don't think she has any reason to take you seriously, her focus will still be primarily on her affair fog driven fantasy and the OW.


again good insight. I agree


----------



## wmn1

bfree said:


> I think he said he's giving her time to come to the conclusion that she's not gay. In actuality he cannot tell her she's straight or bi. She needs to get there on get own.


the fact that it's even a question is horrifying. 

and why is it his responsibility to wait for her to come to that ?

She should have been curbed by now but I guess that's on him.


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> She's not denying the good years of marriage. And I told her exactly what you said (that she is bi and therefore a choice). She said "I just don't know any more". Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what she thinks.



no, it matters what you think too, not her sexual preference but where you go from here.

her actions do have consequences if you want them to


----------



## wmn1

tdwal said:


> You got to be kidding, staying in limbo for a couple of months. You guys just keep trying push him toward the wrong direction.


I agree. I don't get the 'hey, you got screwed, now wait it out and see what happens' mantra from a few here.

She cheated, he holds the cards, she is in the middle of stretching him out. 

The wrong direction is sticking with it and seeing where it goes. The right direction is the foot being put down, demanding an answer now or cutting ties. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya'. and dammit get custody and keep the house. It's not his fault that she turned up lame after this time


----------



## wmn1

sidney2718 said:


> As soon as she moves out or the OP files for divorce or something like that, the focus will shift from who the WW is to how to handle the changes in their lives.
> 
> The resulting confusion, anger, sadness, and so on will last more than a couple of months and at the end of that, repair of the marriage will, in my opinion, be impossible.
> 
> What I advise is waiting a bit and then when things become more clear, both to the OP and the WW, act quickly and decisively, knowing that you gave the marriage its best shot.
> 
> What do I think *will* happen? That's an entirely different question, but if you want to know I think his wife is bi and I think that his marriage is doomed.
> 
> But the OP came here for help in saving his marriage. TAM is dedicated to the notion that we should try to help the OP as best we can toward his goal. So I push for the best path I think will give the OP what he wants.



maybe you are right Sidney in that the marriage is doomed. I agree with you but FM better start protecting himself now and get a hard line date to extract himself. Otherwise, he's going to be screwed


----------



## bfree

cactusflower said:


> I'm curious if anyone out there knows of someone who jumped from being hetero to being gay, lets say in their 30's or 40's,_* and*_ claims that they never had same sex feelings before that.
> 
> That just seems to be so rare. It was hard for me to admit that I'm bisexual, but I had an inkling even in adolescence. It didn't just pop up one day out of the blue for me, so that's why I'm curious.
> 
> Not saying it can't happen, it would be asinine to claim as such...just curious.


Agreed. I've never heard of this either and I have several friends in the LGBT community.


----------



## the guy

FamilyMan15 said:


> Well, she's not with the other person presently. Her tentative plan before I caught her was to separate from me and the OW next month (by getting her own place) and figure out what she wanted on her own. Don't know if the OW would have respected this, but whatever. So I guess she didn't didn't have time to execute the plan. Our arrangement now is that instead of living someplace else, she'll live here and just separate from the OW and see a counselor (in my favor slightly) . She may still move out. Who knows. I may ask her to.


This sounds like she is committing to keeping the family unit together (for now).

Is she still making this affair out to be a sexuality ***** thing or has she excepted her betrayal?

Does your old lady even know that you asking her to leave is on the table?


----------



## bfree

ButtPunch said:


> OP
> 
> Well there's your answer. Are you going to give her another ultimatum because she has already broken your first one.
> 
> She broke your one boundary and now it's time to go scorched Earth on her a$$. If you don't you sir have bigger problems than your marriage. You haven't had that boundary down for a week and she has already pi$$Ed on it just like we told you she would.


FM, I support you in your desire to try to reconcile but I have to agree that breaking NC and not informing you is pretty bad. I'm dubious that she has the willpower or even the desire to do the bare minimum in saving this marriage. As much as I know you want to say you tried I tend to believe that she is doing the same thing all the while knowing that she is going to choose the OW.


----------



## TRy

cactusflower said:


> That's operating under the assumption that she's being honest and really feels conflicted about possibly being gay.
> 
> Or she's using this as a way to garner more time and take her relationship underground.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## FamilyMan15

So, some new developments.

During the counseling session, there was an odd moment. The counselor asked her if she had ever had feelings before for a woman. She said some stuff about the OW and the counselor brought her back to OTHER women and she kinda stammered and said, "well I've had some feelings in the past". "Tell me more," the counselor said. "Well... you know... like I would see a woman and think she was attractive.." (long pause). She was really stretching. It dawned on me that a real lesbian I think would just know and be able to say things like "... when I was young...". That and the last 20 years just really locked in on her just not being a lesbian (or at least not admitting it in front of me). But I gotta think after a lesbian relationship, at some level you just would know if it felt right (but I'm not a lesbian I don't know). 

So that really puts her on the bi spectrum (or just emotionally manipulated but the end effect is the same). Either way, she just has to choose which life - me or her. Either she knows she's a lesbian at some level or she's bi and has to choose or she's not lesbian and she knows at some level. Either way, I just became convinced after thinking about it that the "am I lesbian" thing was just a way to stall (consciously to subconsciously) making a choice. If she's not bi, she knows. Otherwise it's a choice between two people, not two orientations.

Plus the NC issue just really got to me. 

So we are playing a board game with my son tonight and it dawns on me that this might be the last night he plays with both of his parents together. Mom may just decide she's leaving tomorrow. But I don't know, because I'm in this crazy limbo. The emotion of the moment just floored me. I pulled her into the bedroom and told her that I thought I could do it, but I can't live like this. I encouraged her to go find some space in different nearby city, don't tell me or the OW where you are, and stay there until you figure it out. This living together in limbo was just too hard. I think at some level, she knows what she wants and doesn't want to hurt one of the people she "loves". She agreed that would be a good idea and left. It's hard to process things when you've got kids to take care of and a husband trying to make up for lost time. I don't think that she'll call the OW, but if she does, so be it.

I think either way, she'll come back and be up front with what she wants and either way we can move on and either way, I'll be ok. 

Some of this may be what you guys have been telling me and maybe it just sunk it. My end goal is still the same - reconciliation. I just think that she has an idea of what she wants and she's just going to have to commit to that path one way or the other.

If she's really honestly sexually confused, I may have pushed her too hard. Who knows. Honestly, I think she's much more emotionally confused and the sexual identity thing was a subconscious copout to protect her from facing the hard realities of what she did (and also possibly something fed by the OW to keep her in the relationship).

So I guess we'll see what happens...


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> You have been telling us that you had "a NC deal and if the OW reached out, she was supposed to tell". I and many others on this thread told you that she was going to break NC and not tell you. Based on many other past threads, this was an easy call. Well it took her and her affair partner (AP) only a week to prove us right. Now for my next prediction, I say that your wife will break NC again and not tell you. I am not saying this to say I told you so. I am saying this to show you that your current course is not working. You need to change course and try something different.
> 
> When she broke NC and did not tell you, you capitulated and did nothing, so there was no need for her to negotiate. This makes your "non-negotiable" stance sort of worthless to your wife don't you think?


Well no, see this post for what happened next http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-affair-what-do-i-do-now-29.html#post11614042


----------



## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> Well no, see this post for what happened next http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-affair-what-do-i-do-now-29.html#post11614042


 I posted and logged without reading the prior post that you posted. Obviously, you are now taking a different path, so I deleted that post. You and your family are in my prayers.


----------



## farsidejunky

The fact that she did not fight to stay tells you what you need to know. I am so sorry, FM. Her decision has been made; all you did was call her hand. It is really better this way.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

FamilyMan15 said:


> So, some new developments.
> 
> During the counseling session, there was an odd moment. The counselor asked her if she had ever had feelings before for a woman. She said some stuff about the OW and the counselor brought her back to OTHER women and she kinda stammered and said, "well I've had some feelings in the past". "Tell me more," the counselor said. "Well... you know... like I would see a woman and think she was attractive.." (long pause). She was really stretching. It dawned on me that a real lesbian I think would just know and be able to say things like "... when I was young...". That and the last 20 years just really locked in on her just not being a lesbian (or at least not admitting it in front of me). But I gotta think after a lesbian relationship, at some level you just would know if it felt right (but I'm not a lesbian I don't know).
> 
> So that really puts her on the bi spectrum (or just emotionally manipulated but the end effect is the same). Either way, she just has to choose which life - me or her. Either she knows she's a lesbian at some level or she's bi and has to choose or she's not lesbian and she knows at some level. Either way, I just became convinced after thinking about it that the "am I lesbian" thing was just a way to stall (consciously to subconsciously) making a choice. If she's not bi, she knows. Otherwise it's a choice between two people, not two orientations.
> 
> Plus the NC issue just really got to me.
> 
> So we are playing a board game with my son tonight and it dawns on me that this might be the last night he plays with both of his parents together. Mom may just decide she's leaving tomorrow. But I don't know, because I'm in this crazy limbo. The emotion of the moment just floored me. I pulled her into the bedroom and told her that I thought I could do it, but I can't live like this. I encouraged her to go find some space in different nearby city, don't tell me or the OW where you are, and stay there until you figure it out. This living together in limbo was just too hard. I think at some level, she knows what she wants and doesn't want to hurt one of the people she "loves". She agreed that would be a good idea and left. It's hard to process things when you've got kids to take care of and a husband trying to make up for lost time. I don't think that she'll call the OW, but if she does, so be it.
> 
> I think either way, she'll come back and be up front with what she wants and either way we can move on and either way, I'll be ok.
> 
> Some of this may be what you guys have been telling me and maybe it just sunk it. My end goal is still the same - reconciliation. I just think that she has an idea of what she wants and she's just going to have to commit to that path one way or the other.
> 
> If she's really honestly sexually confused, I may have pushed her too hard. Who knows. Honestly, I think she's much more emotionally confused and the sexual identity thing was a subconscious copout to protect her from facing the hard realities of what she did (and also possibly something fed by the OW to keep her in the relationship).
> 
> So I guess we'll see what happens...


The good? You took the step to say that you will not put up with the emotional torture she's putting you through and you also realized that she's playing with you. 

The not-so-good? This: "I encouraged her to go find some space in different nearby city, don't tell me or the OW where you are, and stay there until you figure it out. This living together in limbo was just too hard. I think at some level, she knows what she wants and doesn't want to hurt one of the people she "loves". She agreed that would be a good idea and left."

You are utterly foolish to think that she will not contact the OW. She will, I almost guarantee it, and it won't be a few text messages either. 

Your problem OP, is that you are still desperate to save your last hope of reconciliation no matter how unlikely it is, and you can't see how you're enabling her to do just the opposite. People on this thread have told you over and over again that this is not the way to do it, that the only way to get her out of the affair-fog is to confront her with what she will lose. You haven't done that.

Instead, you have been motivated by the fear that if you take too hard a line on her, that will give the OW the advantage. If that's true then it's over anyway. How many times have BSs on this board shown their WS's the door and just like your wife, they could have run straight into the arms of their AP, the could have chosen their AP over their BS right then and there, and they didn't! Reality hit them and at that moment they, probably for the first time, had to stop sitting on the fence, delaying and the like. If they wanted to save their marriage, they had to decide one way or the other.

That's your problem. Your wife never had to do that. More time alone in another city isn't going to do it either. She's going to continue with her affair and that's all she wrote. Relying on her to be honest is just absolutely foolish.

Sorry to be hard OP, but there it is.


----------



## seasalt

I certainly can't say if your wife is a lesbian but I think not. As far as being a bi-sexual I have a hard concept as a man understanding that. For me, if you can have any kind of sex with another man that's just being gay.

Five will get you ten that if she goes with this other woman within a year she'll be with some guy (not you) and not look back.

You've done nothing to show her you're a man much less her man. You've allowed her to fence sit instead of showing her what she will be losing. You tell her to let you know if the other woman contacts her but she didn't.

Why should she value a twenty year relationship over one of a few months when you won't show her why she should. It seems she would rather shamefully justify life as a lesbian for the near future than deal with the greater shame of cheating and lying. That way she can be viewed as authentic rather than a hateful wife and mother.

With this latest betrayal I'm afraid your chance to salvage your family man life has gone by the boards.

Good luck and make sure you're just replaced as a husband not as a father,

Seasalt


----------



## bfree

Yup, I agree. She is going to go back to the OW. But then again that was her intention all along. And FM, you are right. It was her choice. She made it long before you caught her.


----------



## bfree

seasalt said:


> I certainly can't say if your wife is a lesbian but I think not. As far as being a bi-sexual I have a hard concept as a man understanding that. For me, if you can have any kind of sex with another man that's just being gay.
> 
> Five will get you ten that if she goes with this other woman within a year she'll be with some guy (not you) and not look back.
> 
> You've done nothing to show her you're a man much less her man. You've allowed her to fence sit instead of showing her what she will be losing. You tell her to let you know if the other woman contacts her but she didn't.
> 
> Why should she value a twenty year relationship over one of a few months when you won't show her why she should. It seems she would rather shamefully justify life as a lesbian for the near future than deal with the greater shame of cheating and lying. That way she can be viewed as authentic rather than a hateful wife and mother.
> 
> With this latest betrayal I'm afraid your chance to salvage your family man life has gone by the boards.
> 
> Good luck and make sure you're just replaced as a husband not as a father,
> 
> Seasalt


Dude, it's only been a week or so since he caught her. He didn't really fence sit. He just didn't make a rash decision. I think he handled it as well as could be expected. I'm sure he was in shock. He held his ground in MC and when he processed things and realized she was stringing him along he took action. If she doesn't respect him it won't be because of this one week of confusion.


----------



## FamilyMan15

farsidejunky said:


> The fact that she did not fight to stay tells you what you need to know. I am so sorry, FM. Her decision has been made; all you did was call her hand. It is really better this way.


I'm not sure that's true. She just agreed to leave and go figure it out - no more stalling.


----------



## farsidejunky

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm not sure that's true. She just agreed to leave and go figure it out - no more stalling.


FM:

Lying to yourself is not going to make you see the picture any more clearly.

At this point you would be better served to assume she is going to reach out to the OW until her actions show you otherwise.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Now it's time to expose the affair to the family. That way people will know that she did not get confused about her sexuality, but actively engaged in an illicit affair.

OP, if you do not let friends and family know what really happened, she will tell them a different story completely - one where you are likely blamed for her decisions.


----------



## FamilyMan15

I' m not sure she has made her choice yet. I'm just not going let her string me along while she does it. If when she left last night, she went to the OW, then obviously, she's made her choice. If that's what she wanted all along, she would have just said that she was leaving to be with the OW. On the other hand, if she did truly leave to get some space from everything and figure this out on her own (which she agreed was good idea and I believe she did), then we'll see. 

If she comes back, and chooses us, then it's a whole new ballgame. She'll have to commit 100% to us, be completely transparent with actions and words, and take actions to make things right. I told her that before she left. IF she comes back she knows what she is committing to do. How that plays out remains to be seen, but all I'm saying is that she hasn't made her choice. She genuinely is conflicted and it's hard to made a decision with one of the parties always whispering in your ear. 

All I told her was that it was time to figure out what she wanted; that I wasn't going to be strung along while she figured it out. If she wanted to stay in contact with the OW, so be it, but she's not going to live here. If she does live here, she's got to commit 100%.

I just think this was less about her sexuality and more about her figuring out what she wanted out of life - to take a chance with fixing a broken relationship or to make a lifestyle choice to go with a loving woman but split up a family. I think that was really the decision she was wrestling with. I think she had convinced herself that she might be gay as a way to avoid actually choosing to split up the family. If she was gay, it's something she would have to do. 

We'll see how it all plays out. Just by agreeing to leave to figure it out, understand that she didn't choose the OW. At least not yet.


----------



## happyman64

FM
Your wife is following the cheating script.

May I make a suggestion.

Stop covering for her.

She left willingly. She lied about NC.

So stop covering for her affair.

Now is the time to show some tough love.

Don't fear for your marriage.

Your wife isn't.

Now you are enabling her.

HM


----------



## FamilyMan15

farsidejunky said:


> FM:
> 
> Lying to yourself is not going to make you see the picture any more clearly.
> 
> At this point you would be better served to assume she is going to reach out to the OW until her actions show you otherwise.


I am assuming that she has reached out to the OW and mentally preparing myself for that, but hoping for the best. If she comes back, she'll have to convince me of her true intentions through actions and words in order for me to agree to reconcile. Breaking a NC going forward will be a dealbreaker and she will 100% understand that. I am a hope for the best, plan for the worst kind of guy.


----------



## Chaparral

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm not sure that's true. She just agreed to leave and go figure it out - no more stalling.


Drive by the posow's house tonight. I don't think you will be surprised. 

As far as her telling you about the contact, I expect she wanted to tell you during the counseling session with a third person present.

The posow wants her. That relationship is shiney and new and exciting. She's in a fog.

You need to cut her off and go as dark as possible to let her see what her new life will be like without her family.

Do the 180.

Go to dads divorce .com

Have you separated finances. The usual pattern for a wayward spouse is to clean out the bank account and run up credit cards. Your wayward wife has a partner in crime that is working hard to throw you under the bus. Protect yourself. Tell her you're not being mean, you just can't trust the two of them.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Chaparral said:


> _*Drive by the posow's house tonight. I don't think you will be surprised*_.


Yep. i"m afraid you're going to find out the hard way FM. I just hope she doesn't take too much from you when she goes.


----------



## bfree

FM, just a few comments.

You're a smart guy and by now you must realize that when she cried after admitting the OW contacted her, those tears were not for you. She cried because she was missing the OW and when you suggested she leave to find herself you must know in your heart who and where she turned.

Now a warning. Protect yourself. There have been cases where fathers have been effectively eliminated from their children's lives because their presence no longer fit in the agenda of the lesbian relationship. I am personally aware of a case where the two women were able to convince a judge that the husband was an unfit father. He has had extremely limited contact with his children for the last 5 years and his legal bills have essentially bankrupted him. Now I'm not saying that this is going to happen in this case but you'd be a fool not to at least prepare for the worst. And I know you're no fool. Most of all you need to start detaching and plan a life going forward that does not include your wife. I believe that she is gone and the chances of her coming back are very slim.


----------



## farsidejunky

happyman64 said:


> FM
> Your wife is following the cheating script.
> 
> May I make a suggestion.
> 
> Stop covering for her.
> 
> She left willingly. She lied about NC.
> 
> So stop covering for her affair.
> 
> Now is the time to show some tough love.
> 
> Don't fear for your marriage.
> 
> Your wife isn't.
> 
> Now you are enabling her.
> 
> HM


Yes, yes, yes! 

FM, open your eyes. You are enabling and covering, just like happyman said. 

If she were doing the right things, you would not have to fill in the blanks with assumptions. That is exactly what you're doing right now. Assuming.

If her actions leave a sufficient enough gap that you must assume she is doing the right thing, she is not doing the right thing because it's up to her to fill that gap to begin with.


----------



## farsidejunky

FamilyMan15 said:


> I am assuming that she has reached out to the OW and mentally preparing myself for that, but hoping for the best. If she comes back, she'll have to convince me of her true intentions through actions and words in order for me to agree to reconcile. Breaking a NC going forward will be a dealbreaker and she will 100% understand that. I am a hope for the best, plan for the worst kind of guy.


A deal breaker just like it was the last time? 

Stop, or I'll yell stop again?


----------



## MyTurn

FamilyMan15,
it's time to protect your self and familly
.
She is a cheater (fact)
she lied (fact)
she is in the fog (fact)

you can not trust her anymore.

she is selfish and not thinking logically.You have to protect your family,it's your job.She bailed out on your family and ready to start a new that does not include you.

If she is bi or gay at this stage it's irrelevant.

By the way, you are in your own fog(the BS),where you think by giving it time and being nice, it will go away and everything will be as before.Sorry but your old marriage is dead and your wife,gay bi or not,is a cheater.

So what do you do?

start 180 hard.talk to a lowyer about finances,custody,bank accounts,bills ect.

Start doing things for you and be happy.Do not stay in limbo land it sucks.The more you detach,the better you will feel.By doing this you will be much more attractive ,not only to your wife but to other women also.

Stay strong and good luck!


----------



## wmn1

I agree with the vast amount of the recent posts.

1) Telling her to leave was in and of itself not bad but you know damm well that she reached out to the OW shortly after this and if you would have driven by the other house, you would know.

2) Separate finances, proceed with divorce.

3) If she comes back in a month, it sounds like you'll be good with that, time to rebuild and move on with the marriage. WRONG. That month would have been an affair with your blinders on. You are rugsweeping, fighting, making bad decisions over and over again in a cycle.

4) While your actions to try and save your marriage are admirable, it was obvious by her signs to this point that it wasn't in the cards.

So, I will ask you 5 questions here.

1) What are you doing to protect your kids and make sure that you win custody ?
2) Have you contacted a divorce attorney yet ?
3) Did you try and verify if she's with the other woman after she left the house ?
4) Do you have plans to contact family and friends to expose ?
5) What is your gameplan if she comes back ?? Are you going to see if she cheated during that time ? If so, are you still going to take her back ?

In the end, you have been fortunate that you know what you do, so what are you going to do with it ???


----------



## ButtPunch

OP

If your kids are an important part of your life, I would be taking off work today. I would find out who the best divorce lawyer in your town is and I would be in his office to get motion filed for temporary custody of your children. DO IT NOW!

Your WW has already told you her intentions of raising your family with her lesbian lover. You better believe her. Do not for second let her continue to believe this fantasy of you writing fat support checks while she has a new family. She needs to understand she has got the fight of her life coming. 

Do not tell her anything either. No warnings or threats. You just do it. ACTIONS not empty words.


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## ButtPunch

Your new bible for the next several months. Memorize it. 

For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.


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## ButtPunch

I wish I could claim credit for this masterpiece but I can't. It belongs to very wise member from another website. It should be etched in the minds of every man and woman who has been the victim on infidelity.

*Just Let Them Go*

The end result?

The end result is to respect yourself in the end,
let go of the people that don't value you or respect you.

That is the end result.

The quickest way to get a cheating spouse back is to let them go with a smile on your face wishing them the best in life and hoping that everything works out in their relationship with their affair partner.

Seriously, the quickest way to get them back.

Nothing else works better or quicker.

Let them go.

Agree with them and their feelings,
"you should be with the OM, I hope he makes you happy, good bye"

Wouldn't that be true love?

If you really loved your spouse,
and wanted them to have what they really want in life which is the other person they're in love with,
wouldn't letting them go be the approach if you really love them?

Why focus on the affair or the drama associated with it?
Just let them go. Give them their freedom.

You can take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror everyday and improve yourself but do it for you, not for someone else, the changes will never stick when it's done for someone else, do it for your benefit and you will probably make those changes last much longer if not indefinitely - because it's for your benefit and you realize the importance and value in that benefit because YOU are involved.

I will never tell someone to change to entice a WAW back when she's been cheating on him. I don't care how bad a marriage, there is never an excuse for cheating. That is a personal decision that someone makes to cheat on their spouse. If a marriage is really bad, leave, get a divorce, speak up to your spouse and tell them flat out "this marriage sucks and if things don't change I'm going to leave you and find someone better" and if things don't improve, leave that person.

But cheating, no excuses.

Think about cheating.
A wayward spouse who cheats on their spouse goes behind their back, secretly, telling lies, feeling guilty, getting angry at their spouse for getting in the way of their fantasies but never owning up to their actions, never admitting what they're doing. If a person who cheats on their spouse felt justified in their actions, why hide and go behind their spouses backs when they start cheating, why lie, why make up excuses about late nights at work and going to a friends place and sleeping over because they drank too much and any other such nonsense?

Deep down, the cheating spouse knows there is something inherently wrong with their actions otherwise they wouldn't lie about their actions and hide what they're doing.

Fighting the affair? For what reason?
To compete with the OM or OW for your spouse?
What message does that communicate to your wayward spouse?
They have lots of value and you have none because now you have to compete with another person for their love? Competing with your wayward spouse's affair partner never works, it just prolongs an ugly drama filled process.

And for your last point,
The easiest way to show you will not tolerate cheating in your relationship is to let that person go. That is the easiest and most effective way to show this.

"Look wife/husband, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with them because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."

You give them what they want.
You don't fight them on this issue.
You agree with their feelings,
they want to be with the other person, fine they should be with the other person, let them be with the other person.

You will never convince a person to change their feelings with your arguments and logic. You can not find one member on this website in a situation where they are dealing with infidelity where they got their spouse to change their mind about how they feel about their affair partner.

You can't say "don't love them, love me instead",
you can't say "look at me, I'm better in every way compared to your affair partner, pick me instead of them",
you can't say "you took marriage vows, you promised to love me"

I agree, you don't have to make it easy for your wayward spouse to have an affair, but when you let them go, "lovingly detach", you don't have to worry about making it easy for them. It's no longer your concern, they can have you or them but not both and not at the same time and since they've chosen to have an affair, they've made their choice, there is no profit in fighting that decision. Let them go and move on with your life, that is the quickest, easiest way to get them back.

You definitely don't support them financially and enable them, that would be weak, wussy, clingy, insecure behavior - something in you telling you that you need to support them financially while they're having an affair, hoping they'll realize how nice you are and come back to you.

Just let them go, have them move out or you move out and live a good life without them.


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## FamilyMan15

Ok, so you guys have given some good advice for exiting the relationship and dealing with that. I'll be working on that over the next couple of days so I am prepared for what likely will happen.

She did call me this morning and let me know where she was staying, so I'm confident that at least that part is true (the credit card statement verifies). She may be visiting with the OW, but I really believe her intent is to try and figure things out on her own and I think she understands with either of us involved in the process, emotions can drive a bad long term decision. and she ultimately wants to make the right decision. Regardless, I told her I didn't want her to come back until she was 100% ready to commit to one of her two choices and then we would deal with the next steps. If she does end up talking to the OW, so be it (not ideal obviously). The end decision is what I'm interested in now (and frankly what she is focused on as well). 

Now, let me ask you this - and this is where I need your advice. Say she does come back (there is a fair chance of this) and say she says she is ready to commit back to me and the family 100%. I will allow her to do that, but under what conditions? What do I need from her to ensure that we can progress towards reconciliation and that I can trust her sincerity?

For example:
1. Strict NC (this would be a no exception thing)
2. Open access to everything to verify #1
etc...

I really don't need advice as to if this is the right call or not, remember successful reconciliation is my end goal. I just need advice regarding if this is the path she chooses, how do I make sure she is sincere and we can be best set up to reconcile?


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## G.J.

:lol:


FamilyMan15 said:


> Ok, so you guys have given some good advice for exiting the relationship and dealing with that. I'll be working on that over the next couple of days so I am prepared for what likely will happen.
> 
> She did call me this morning and let me know where she was staying, so I'm confident that at least that part is true (the credit card statement verifies). She may be visiting with the OW, but I really believe her intent is to try and figure things out on her own and I think she understands with either of us involved in the process, emotions can drive a bad long term decision. and she ultimately wants to make the right decision. Regardless, I told her I didn't want her to come back until she was 100% ready to commit to one of her two choices and then we would deal with the next steps. If she does end up talking to the OW, so be it (not ideal obviously). The end decision is what I'm interested in now (and frankly what she is focused on as well).
> 
> Now, let me ask you this - and this is where I need your advice. Say she does come back (there is a fair chance of this) and say she says she is ready to commit back to me and the family 100%. I will allow her to do that, but under what conditions? What do I need from her to ensure that we can progress towards reconciliation and that I can trust her sincerity?
> 
> For example:
> 1. Strict NC (this would be a no exception thing)
> 2. Open access to everything to verify #1
> etc...
> 
> I really don't need advice as to if this is the right call or not, remember successful reconciliation is my end goal. I just need advice regarding if this is the path she chooses, how do I make sure she is sincere and we can be best set up to reconcile?


Nice to see you looking on the positive outcome but do you not also need advice if the outcome is the opposite 

Also what age are your children as I may have missed if you posted the answer to that ?


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## bfree

Before I answer let me ask this. How much detail do you want? How much do you need to know? I ask because many times a timeline of the affair is needed for the BS to get closure. Another requirement we often see is IC for the WS. Some betrayed spouses require a post nup as a goodwill gesture for rebuilding trust. Some insist on the WS exposing the affair to friends and family and asking for their forgiveness for the betrayal. Each person is different and therefore the requirements for each reconciliation will be different.


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## happyman64

You really want to know if her intentions are true and she has decided to invest herself with you 100%

A. That she goes to IC weekly not only to sort her sexuality issues but to understand why she cheated on you.

B. She exposes the affair to family. She takes responsibility for her actions.

Option B is not to be taken lightly.


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## bfree

Additionally, I would recommend that how she met her affair partner be addressed. For instance if this was a work affair she would have to quit her job. If the affair was centered around a particular club or venue that would be off limits. And it goes without saying that any friends that knew about the affair or actively encouraged the affair would be dropped as these are toxic to your reconciliation effort and your marriage.


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## ButtPunch

OP

Why are you still asking reconciliation questions? She will come back when and only when her fantasy life dies. Not one second sooner.

Step One....You need to tell all your friends and family the god awful truth. Even tell the kids if they are old enough other wise you are just lying to them. Nothing kills an affair like sunlight. 

Step Two.....The 180 is your friend. Stop answering her phone calls. Stop responding to texts. Only deal with her if it concerns the kids. See a lawyer and protect those kids. 

Step 3 ..... Let her go. Deal with the present. Right now your wife is gone and may never come back. That is your reality atm and the sooner you accept it the sooner that world of hurt you are living in will start to fade. Right now R isn't an option and I wouldn't be trying to figure out how to do it properly. Next week may be different, who knows. Your main concern right now is figuring out how to let her go and keeping your kids.


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## farsidejunky

FamilyMan15 said:


> Ok, so you guys have given some good advice for exiting the relationship and dealing with that. I'll be working on that over the next couple of days so I am prepared for what likely will happen.
> 
> She did call me this morning and let me know where she was staying, so I'm confident that at least that part is true (the credit card statement verifies). She may be visiting with the OW, but I really believe her intent is to try and figure things out on her own and I think she understands with either of us involved in the process, emotions can drive a bad long term decision. and she ultimately wants to make the right decision. Regardless, I told her I didn't want her to come back until she was 100% ready to commit to one of her two choices and then we would deal with the next steps. If she does end up talking to the OW, so be it (not ideal obviously). The end decision is what I'm interested in now (and frankly what she is focused on as well).
> 
> Now, let me ask you this - and this is where I need your advice. Say she does come back (there is a fair chance of this) and say she says she is ready to commit back to me and the family 100%. I will allow her to do that, but under what conditions? What do I need from her to ensure that we can progress towards reconciliation and that I can trust her sincerity?
> 
> For example:
> 1. Strict NC (this would be a no exception thing)
> 2. Open access to everything to verify #1
> etc...
> 
> I really don't need advice as to if this is the right call or not, remember successful reconciliation is my end goal. I just need advice regarding if this is the path she chooses, how do I make sure she is sincere and we can be best set up to reconcile?


Reconciliation has to start before it can become successful. 

The advice you are saying you don't need is designed to help you arrive at the start of reconciliation.

FM, you are clearly strong willed. But you are so set on the process of reconciliation that you are not even considering that the advice being given is to make your situation better, whether it is emotionally prepping you for divorce or properly setting the conditions for reconciliation.

I would re-read the advice through that prism.


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## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> She did call me this morning and let me know where she was staying, so I'm confident that at least that part is true (the credit card statement verifies). She may be visiting with the OW


You can bet your sweet a$$ the OW spent the night at the hotel with her.


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## farsidejunky

FM, I would like to add one more thing. 

This is how I know you are not nearly as resolute as you are trying to indicate, as well as how I can recognize someone who is committed to reconciliation based on fantasy instead of facts:

-your response to the "deal breaker" of the OW contacting her without telling you immediately.

Please, Sir. Honest answers. 

What are your _actual_ deal breakers?

Do you have any?

Do you possess the courage of your convictions?

If you do not, please stop saying something is a deal breaker when in fact it is not. 

I am sitting lord-knows how many miles away from you, through a computer, with no ability to see your non-verbal communication, and I can spot your weakness in this area. What do you think your WW sees, up close and personal?


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## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> So, some new developments.
> 
> During the counseling session, there was an odd moment. The counselor asked her if she had ever had feelings before for a woman. She said some stuff about the OW and the counselor brought her back to OTHER women and she kinda stammered and said, "well I've had some feelings in the past". "Tell me more," the counselor said. "Well... you know... like I would see a woman and think she was attractive.." (long pause). She was really stretching. It dawned on me that a real lesbian I think would just know and be able to say things like "... when I was young...". That and the last 20 years just really locked in on her just not being a lesbian (or at least not admitting it in front of me). But I gotta think after a lesbian relationship, at some level you just would know if it felt right (but I'm not a lesbian I don't know).
> 
> So that really puts her on the bi spectrum (or just emotionally manipulated but the end effect is the same). Either way, she just has to choose which life - me or her. Either she knows she's a lesbian at some level or she's bi and has to choose or she's not lesbian and she knows at some level. Either way, I just became convinced after thinking about it that the "am I lesbian" thing was just a way to stall (consciously to subconsciously) making a choice. If she's not bi, she knows. Otherwise it's a choice between two people, not two orientations.
> 
> Plus the NC issue just really got to me.
> 
> So we are playing a board game with my son tonight and it dawns on me that this might be the last night he plays with both of his parents together. Mom may just decide she's leaving tomorrow. But I don't know, because I'm in this crazy limbo. The emotion of the moment just floored me. I pulled her into the bedroom and told her that I thought I could do it, but I can't live like this. I encouraged her to go find some space in different nearby city, don't tell me or the OW where you are, and stay there until you figure it out. This living together in limbo was just too hard. I think at some level, she knows what she wants and doesn't want to hurt one of the people she "loves". She agreed that would be a good idea and left. It's hard to process things when you've got kids to take care of and a husband trying to make up for lost time. I don't think that she'll call the OW, but if she does, so be it.
> 
> I think either way, she'll come back and be up front with what she wants and either way we can move on and either way, I'll be ok.
> 
> Some of this may be what you guys have been telling me and maybe it just sunk it. My end goal is still the same - reconciliation. I just think that she has an idea of what she wants and she's just going to have to commit to that path one way or the other.
> 
> If she's really honestly sexually confused, I may have pushed her too hard. Who knows. Honestly, I think she's much more emotionally confused and the sexual identity thing was a subconscious copout to protect her from facing the hard realities of what she did (and also possibly something fed by the OW to keep her in the relationship).
> 
> So I guess we'll see what happens...


GREAT insight regarding her answers to the MC's asking about her interests in other women prior to the OW. I think you're absolutely right. Honestly I think even if she were bi she would still be able to confidently say, "Oh yeah, I see women I'm attracted to all the time. Specific examples? Well, I'd love to jump into bed with Megan Fox or Ellen Degeneres, and Jennifer Aniston has such AMAZING breasts, doesn't she?" 

So as for my NEW two cents, yeah, I don't even think she's genuinely bi either. In fact, I don't even think she's deciding between you and the OW. I think she's deciding between you and just anyone else, not just the OW. I think the OW is a genuinely talented manipulator with whom your wife developed a deep emotional connection due to her being desperate to connect emotionally with SOMEONE. Combine that with the OW poisoning your wife against your marriage, and then using that powerful emotional connection to guide her towards experimenting sexually while your wife was so emotionally vulnerable. Plus, as said previously, the "Could I be a lesbian?" nonsense makes for a great excuse she can blame for her actions instead of her own decision making. I bet right now she is still very much wanting to go back to the OW because of how wonderful that "relationship" made her feel, but I think even she is extremely doubtful that she's actually a lesbian.

Basically, I'm agreeing and expanding upon this statement of yours completely: "Honestly, I think she's much more emotionally confused and the sexual identity thing was a subconscious copout to protect her from facing the hard realities of what she did (and also possibly something fed by the OW to keep her in the relationship)." *Again, that's very insightful of you to see.*

Honestly, I find it very, very hard to believe that she hasn't re-contacted the OW, or gone to see her, either since she left or maybe even before that in greater secrecy. Without the accountability of being at home and knowing that you could check her phone/computer anytime, I just think it will be difficult for her not to give in. (Realize she's had that temptation all along, it doesn't mean she's decided to choose her over you)


One more thing you might consider is that it seems very possible, if not highly likely to me, that a full separation or her choosing to go to the OW (at least for a while) has always been inevitable. As you've acknowledged, she has two choices, and one is currently far more exciting, fulfilling and far less guilt ridden than the other. Until those choices can be rebalanced, it makes sense that she'll go the other direction. I don't think that means your marriage is or has been doomed all along, but she might just need to go off in that direction for a while for her to wake up and realize she's made a mistake. As I've mentioned how your story shares a lot of similarities to mine, I have long been able to look back and realize with certainty that I had absolutely zero chance of saving my marriage or getting her to not leave for the other guy, during the time that we were living together in limbo the way you and your wife have been until last night. There was just no chance, there was nothing I could have done differently, it was all inevitable, and my only hope of reconciliation available was that she would leave and realize that the grass wasn't any greener on that side, while I remained and worked through my own issues that helped contribute to the problems. I think you've in the same situation.


Lastly, regardless of what happens now, regardless of what decision she comes to, which way she is leaning, if she is or is not in contact with the OW, etc., with her having made the choice to leave the home (which I think is indeed one more tiny step away from the marriage and towards divorce) and willing to leave her kids with you, I think now is really the time that you should take the opportunity to file for divorce and the temporary custody order. I know, I sound like a broken record, but with this most recent step of hers, I think it makes that much more sense for you. Again, you can get the protection of the temporary order, get the process started, but still explain to her that you aren't giving up on her or the marriage yet and you certainly aren't trying to keep her from her kids, you're just getting the process started in case she does decide to leave the marriage ("because I need to know that I'm not just sitting around like a fool being taken advantage of, that if the marriage is ultimately going to end, then at least we're not wasting time") while also simply ensuring that the emotional drama of the moment doesn't lead to any harmful decisions regarding the kids, affirming that it is in their best interest that they remain in the home and not be exposed to any potential affair partner for at least the few months that the temporary order will cover, until further decisions could potentially be made.

Again, if everything she has told you is true, she should ultimately understand and accept this. If she's not actually remorseful and saving the marriage is not or was never a realistic interest of hers, then she'll likely be angry and stay angry out of selfishness. Either way though, you'll see where she stands and be protected regardless.


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## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> Ok, so you guys have given some good advice for exiting the relationship and dealing with that. I'll be working on that over the next couple of days so I am prepared for what likely will happen.
> 
> She did call me this morning and let me know where she was staying, so I'm confident that at least that part is true (the credit card statement verifies). She may be visiting with the OW, but I really believe her intent is to try and figure things out on her own and I think she understands with either of us involved in the process, emotions can drive a bad long term decision. and she ultimately wants to make the right decision. Regardless, I told her I didn't want her to come back until she was 100% ready to commit to one of her two choices and then we would deal with the next steps. If she does end up talking to the OW, so be it (not ideal obviously). The end decision is what I'm interested in now (and frankly what she is focused on as well).
> 
> Now, let me ask you this - and this is where I need your advice. Say she does come back (there is a fair chance of this) and say she says she is ready to commit back to me and the family 100%. I will allow her to do that, but under what conditions? What do I need from her to ensure that we can progress towards reconciliation and that I can trust her sincerity?
> 
> For example:
> 1. Strict NC (this would be a no exception thing)
> 2. Open access to everything to verify #1
> etc...
> 
> I really don't need advice as to if this is the right call or not, remember successful reconciliation is my end goal. I just need advice regarding if this is the path she chooses, how do I make sure she is sincere and we can be best set up to reconcile?


I understand what you are asking for here. It's amazing how much deja-vu I get from this thread btw, I basically wrote so many of these posts myself a few years ago, including some just like this. You're really trying as hard as you can to appear resolute and confident in your words, but your descriptions of what is taking place and how you're handling them suggest otherwise. You're desperate to try to look ahead and imagine a more ideal scenario. I get it, I can't blame you, but just try to stay focused in the here and now first.

As for advice, honestly I don't think it would be any different than a typical affair recovery scenario when a cheating spouse informs the betrayed spouse that they are willing to recommit to the marriage. I'm sure you've already seen lots of advice here on what kind of steps are involved. I'm not sure if the whole limbo situation with you and the OW, or her questioned sexuality, or anything else really changes recommended steps at all.


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## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> I just think this was less about her sexuality and more about her figuring out what she wanted out of life


 I just think this was less about her sexuality and more about her figuring out if she was willing to commit to having her affair partner out of her life. Do not be fooled by the false sexuality issue. She is just another cheater, that got caught up in her affair partner.


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## TRy

Chaparral said:


> Protect yourself. Tell her you're not being mean, you just can't trust the two of them.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## cdbaker

I've gotta add more to what you said earlier here:

"Honestly, I think she's much more emotionally confused and the sexual identity thing was a subconscious copout to protect her from facing the hard realities of what she did (and also possibly something fed by the OW to keep her in the relationship)."

For a woman that's left feeling emotionally void, perhaps unloved, undesirable, etc. for a long period of time, it doesn't take much from someone else, ANYONE else to step in and share even a few kind or flattering words and essentially sweep her off her feet. For a wife in that situation, it will feel like she's been crawling through a dessert for days with no water, then someone comes along and offers her a drink. It's a desperate need that finally gets filled, even in a small way. Who that person is usually is meaningless. For a manipulator, this is winning the lottery. For my wife, the other person was short, balding old man twice her age, with no money, a 25 y/o car and crappy old apartment with roommates. It didn't matter because she was so lonely, depressed and desperate to hear that she was worthy, desirable, attractive, etc., that it just didn't matter who it came from. I absolutely think that is what's going on with your wife and the other woman. After all, in that scenario, wouldn't you accept that drink as well, and be tempted to follow that source of water out of the dessert? I think it would be pretty difficult to turn down the water and head deeper into the dessert....

Incidentally, my wife did leave with the old man, but it wasn't more than six or so months before she came out of the fog and realized how ridiculous it was that she had ever thought she might love him or have a future with him.


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## badmemory

FamilyMan15 said:


> Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters what she thinks.


In fact, the opposite is true. 

That statement friend, sums up the problem with your current mindset.


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## Chaparral

How does your wife know the ow? Are there gay bars in your area? Why was this woman hanging out where your wife was?


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## FamilyMan15

G.J. said:


> :lol:
> 
> Nice to see you looking on the positive outcome but do you not also need advice if the outcome is the opposite
> 
> Also what age are your children as I may have missed if you posted the answer to that ?


Kids are older elementary age.


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## D.H Mosquito

Do you have a set amount of time in your mind for her to decide? i think she has had time enough to chose you or her i would be asking her her tonight to decide and decide now the longer you leave it the more chance the other woman has


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## ButtPunch

cactusflower said:


> all for a 10 second orgasm.


Where can I get one of these?


----------



## bfree

cactusflower said:


> At least she's shown her cards that the odds that she's a lesbian are next to none. Practically none.
> And you could obviously tell that she was reaching when she answered that she's thought a few women were beautiful/attractive and that's been the limit to her sexuality, women-wise.
> LOL, I think every woman will comment now and again how pretty another female is.
> 
> I on the other hand can tell you that my latest crush is my doctor. No qualms about it. She's beautiful, smart, intelligent and just awesome. And as you can tell, I've developed a bit of a crush on her. My chick crush.
> 
> My feelings for women develop a lil' differently the way the do for a man; I can see a man and don't need to speak to him to find him gorgeous or attractive and in my mind, WANT him. Of course, it's just a fantasy.
> For a woman, I can find them attractive but that's all it is. No butterflies in my stomach, no warm flushed feeling if I run into them again. I HAVE to talk to them in order to feel that something more and if they have a bad personality, then whatever. If I'm attracted to their personality and to them, then I get those lil' butterfly/warm feelings. And I have to be careful of that, because that can of course lead to bad decisions and I try to keep my feet planted firmly in my reality, which is my family.
> 
> My doc, who've I have run into a few times outside of her office and I've been having some testing done so I've seen her a lot, invited me to go to a concert with her. We get along very well and she's admitted to me that I'm the only patient that she'll let her guard down with and be herself. She has two tickets, her husband doesn't want to go and she doesn't have any friends that like this particular group. It just so happens that I love the music group as well, but I turned her offer down. Because of my nature, her invite makes it the same as if a guy invited me.
> 
> So instead, that night when I found myself wondering and fantasizing about what if and my mind started to veer, I took my husband to a part of the house we don't make love in and I blew his brains out. LOL. I find that the intimacy I share with him, pulls me back down to Earth, and fast! It definitely makes me come down from the Lala Land that's purely make believe. Plus, I love what my husband and I share and even though we may all have moments of temptation, we have to realize them for what they are: fleeting moments that should never overcome the beauty of the reality that you share with a committed partner.
> 
> I'm not sure what to say about still giving her the option to choose between you and the OW. I agree with a lot of the educated folks on here that it probably isn't such a good idea, but they can verbalize that much better than I can.
> 
> If your wife is truly bisexual and decides to come back to you and you reconcile, she's going to have to develop a strategy. You can't give in to your thoughts and ruin the life you've built together, all for a 10 second orgasm. Doesn't matter if the person giving it to you is male or female, cheating is cheating. She needs to get it together.


That's an awesome look into the mind of a responsible bisexual woman. FM look at this post again and again.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Mr Useless said:


> Do you have a set amount of time in your mind for her to decide? i think she has had time enough to chose you or her i would be asking her her tonight to decide and decide now the longer you leave it the more chance the other woman has


Well, she's out of the house until she decides. She's doing to IC next week, so I think we'll see then. She will want to resolve it before too long so the kids can be settled out. I think it's be a couple weeks max, if not sooner. Playing this part a bit by ear.


----------



## ButtPunch

cactusflower said:


> OMG you made me crack up! Do I have a special power that I wasn't aware of? :smthumbup:


I have never in my life once wanted to be a woman....until now.


----------



## farsidejunky

You are still waffling. Set a date in your mind that is fair, then hold yourself to it.

BTW, still waiting on those deal breakers...


----------



## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> Well, she's out of the house until she decides. She's doing to IC next week, so I think we'll see then. She will want to resolve it before too long so the kids can be settled out. I think it's be a couple weeks max, if not sooner. Playing this part a bit by ear.


Decides what? She has chosen already. You are creeping into my top ten beta male provider all time TAM list. 

Wake Up


----------



## bfree

cactusflower said:


> OMG you made me crack up! Do I have a special power that I wasn't aware of? :smthumbup:


I think so!


----------



## Chaparral

cactusflower said:


> At least she's shown her cards that the odds that she's a lesbian are next to none. Practically none.
> And you could obviously tell that she was reaching when she answered that she's thought a few women were beautiful/attractive and that's been the limit to her sexuality, women-wise.
> LOL, I think every woman will comment now and again how pretty another female is.
> 
> I on the other hand can tell you that my latest crush is my doctor. No qualms about it. She's beautiful, smart, intelligent and just awesome. And as you can tell, I've developed a bit of a crush on her. My chick crush.
> 
> My feelings for women develop a lil' differently the way the do for a man; I can see a man and don't need to speak to him to find him gorgeous or attractive and in my mind, WANT him. Of course, it's just a fantasy.
> For a woman, I can find them attractive but that's all it is. No butterflies in my stomach, no warm flushed feeling if I run into them again. I HAVE to talk to them in order to feel that something more and if they have a bad personality, then whatever. If I'm attracted to their personality and to them, then I get those lil' butterfly/warm feelings. And I have to be careful of that, because that can of course lead to bad decisions and I try to keep my feet planted firmly in my reality, which is my family.
> 
> My doc, who've I have run into a few times outside of her office and I've been having some testing done so I've seen her a lot, invited me to go to a concert with her. We get along very well and she's admitted to me that I'm the only patient that she'll let her guard down with and be herself. She has two tickets, her husband doesn't want to go and she doesn't have any friends that like this particular group. It just so happens that I love the music group as well, but I turned her offer down. Because of my nature, her invite makes it the same as if a guy invited me.
> 
> So instead, that night when I found myself wondering and fantasizing about what if and my mind started to veer, I took my husband to a part of the house we don't make love in and I blew his brains out. LOL. I find that the intimacy I share with him, pulls me back down to Earth, and fast! It definitely makes me come down from the Lala Land that's purely make believe. Plus, I love what my husband and I share and even though we may all have moments of temptation, we have to realize them for what they are: fleeting moments that should never overcome the beauty of the reality that you share with a committed partner.
> 
> I'm not sure what to say about still giving her the option to choose between you and the OW. I agree with a lot of the educated folks on here that it probably isn't such a good idea, but they can verbalize that much better than I can.
> 
> If your wife is truly bisexual and decides to come back to you and you reconcile, she's going to have to develop a strategy. You can't give in to your thoughts and ruin the life you've built together, all for a 10 second orgasm. Doesn't matter if the person giving it to you is male or female, cheating is cheating. She needs to get it together.



I'm thinking you should print this and email it to your wife.


----------



## bfree

FM, if you discover that your wife is now "with" the other woman will that indicate to you that she has chosen?


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> FM, if you discover that your wife is now "with" the other woman will that indicate to you that she has chosen?


Yes


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> I've gotta add more to what you said earlier here:
> 
> "Honestly, I think she's much more emotionally confused and the sexual identity thing was a subconscious copout to protect her from facing the hard realities of what she did (and also possibly something fed by the OW to keep her in the relationship)."
> 
> For a woman that's left feeling emotionally void, perhaps unloved, undesirable, etc. for a long period of time, it doesn't take much from someone else, ANYONE else to step in and share even a few kind or flattering words and essentially sweep her off her feet. For a wife in that situation, it will feel like she's been crawling through a dessert for days with no water, then someone comes along and offers her a drink. It's a desperate need that finally gets filled, even in a small way. Who that person is usually is meaningless. For a manipulator, this is winning the lottery. For my wife, the other person was short, balding old man twice her age, with no money, a 25 y/o car and crappy old apartment with roommates. It didn't matter because she was so lonely, depressed and desperate to hear that she was worthy, desirable, attractive, etc., that it just didn't matter who it came from. I absolutely think that is what's going on with your wife and the other woman. After all, in that scenario, wouldn't you accept that drink as well, and be tempted to follow that source of water out of the dessert? I think it would be pretty difficult to turn down the water and head deeper


That's my view of what happened


----------



## bfree

I'm praying that your wife has an epiphany and realizes how foolish she's being. I don't expect it but I'm praying nonetheless.


----------



## Nucking Futs

FamilyMan15 said:


> Yes


You're not going to check, though, are you?


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> You really want to know if her intentions are true and she has decided to invest herself with you 100%
> 
> A. That she goes to IC weekly not only to sort her sexuality issues but to understand why she cheated on you.
> 
> B. She exposes the affair to family. She takes responsibility for her actions.
> 
> Option B is not to be taken lightly.


Good suggestion. There are underlying issues here clearly. Can I ask why share the affair with family?


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> Additionally, I would recommend that how she met her affair partner be addressed. For instance if this was a work affair she would have to quit her job. If the affair was centered around a particular club or venue that would be off limits. And it goes without saying that any friends that knew about the affair or actively encouraged the affair would be dropped as these are toxic to your reconciliation effort and your marriage.


Great point. This is something I want to address with the counselor as well. Basically, what does she need to do to avoid these types of situations in the future? They met at the gym. It's not the gym that the OW frequents (she lives on the other side of town), but it's still an issue.


----------



## FamilyMan15

farsidejunky said:


> Reconciliation has to start before it can become successful.
> 
> The advice you are saying you don't need is designed to help you arrive at the start of reconciliation.
> 
> FM, you are clearly strong willed. But you are so set on the process of reconciliation that you are not even considering that the advice being given is to make your situation better, whether it is emotionally prepping you for divorce or properly setting the conditions for reconciliation.
> 
> I would re-read the advice through that prism.


I hear what you are saying, but there is nothing left for me to do at this point other than prepare for the worse (which I am actively doing - lawyer etc) and hope for the best. At this point, the path she's going to follow is in her hands and we are out of contact (and she's not seeing the kids by her agreement) until she figures that out. That's the most I can do to push the issue.

I hear all your worse case advice - thanks. I am proceeding with that. 

What I really need is advice on how to handle her if she does come back. How can I judge her sincerity? What limits/rules need to be in place to support reconciliation? How do I communicate those to her without seeming like the controlling ass she left in the first place? Seems like the marriage counselor would be a key part of this.


----------



## FamilyMan15

farsidejunky said:


> -your response to the "deal breaker" of the OW contacting her without telling you immediately.


My response was to ask her to leave until she figured this out. We are no longer in contact at this point. 

Help me with what other deal breakers I need to have in place if she come back besides 100% commitment (how can I tell?), strict no contact, and full access? If those are broken if she comes back I'll just file the papers at that point. I'm not going through this twice.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> GREAT insight regarding her answers to the MC's asking about her interests in other women prior to the OW. I think you're absolutely right. Honestly I think even if she were bi she would still be able to confidently say, "Oh yeah, I see women I'm attracted to all the time. Specific examples? Well, I'd love to jump into bed with Megan Fox or Ellen Degeneres, and Jennifer Aniston has such AMAZING breasts, doesn't she?"
> 
> So as for my NEW two cents, yeah, I don't even think she's genuinely bi either. In fact, I don't even think she's deciding between you and the OW. I think she's deciding between you and just anyone else, not just the OW. I think the OW is a genuinely talented manipulator with whom your wife developed a deep emotional connection due to her being desperate to connect emotionally with SOMEONE. Combine that with the OW poisoning your wife against your marriage, and then using that powerful emotional connection to guide her towards experimenting sexually while your wife was so emotionally vulnerable. Plus, as said previously, the "Could I be a lesbian?" nonsense makes for a great excuse she can blame for her actions instead of her own decision making. I bet right now she is still very much wanting to go back to the OW because of how wonderful that "relationship" made her feel, but I think even she is extremely doubtful that she's actually a lesbian.


This is my read exactly. I think ultimately the decision she is wrestling with is to leave me or not - she just happens to have a nice door number 2 available to fall back into.

Regarding the custody order, I'm meeting with a lawyer Monday to have everything in place just in case.


----------



## FamilyMan15

TRy said:


> I just think this was less about her sexuality and more about her figuring out if she was willing to commit to having her affair partner out of her life. Do not be fooled by the false sexuality issue. She is just another cheater, that got caught up in her affair partner.


That's fair.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> As for advice, honestly I don't think it would be any different than a typical affair recovery scenario when a cheating spouse informs the betrayed spouse that they are willing to recommit to the marriage. I'm sure you've already seen lots of advice here on what kind of steps are involved. I'm not sure if the whole limbo situation with you and the OW, or her questioned sexuality, or anything else really changes recommended steps at all.


I think you are right. Once we get past this limbo, this is a standard recovery scenario. Can you point me in the right direction for a good primer on successfully navigating that recovery process in case that does end up happening. If she shows up and says I'll say, I want to be prepared.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> How does your wife know the ow? Are there gay bars in your area? Why was this woman hanging out where your wife was?


They met at the gym (or so the story goes). Not the OW's typical gym, my wife's gym. The OW lives an hour on the other side of town. I'm not sure why the OW was there, but you bet I'll find out if we do move past this. I need to find out danger zones.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cactusflower said:


> At least she's shown her cards that the odds that she's a lesbian are next to none. Practically none.
> And you could obviously tell that she was reaching when she answered that she's thought a few women were beautiful/attractive and that's been the limit to her sexuality, women-wise.
> LOL, I think every woman will comment now and again how pretty another female is.
> ...
> If your wife is truly bisexual and decides to come back to you and you reconcile, she's going to have to develop a strategy. You can't give in to your thoughts and ruin the life you've built together, all for a 10 second orgasm. Doesn't matter if the person giving it to you is male or female, cheating is cheating. She needs to get it together.


I agree on both cases. If we move forward, individual counseling will be critical to move past this for her personally. Having a healthy, loving relationship with me will obviously help a lot as well.


----------



## FamilyMan15

farsidejunky said:


> You are still waffling. Set a date in your mind that is fair, then hold yourself to it.
> 
> BTW, still waiting on those deal breakers...


Gvie me some deal-breaker suggestions besides 100% commitment, strict no contact, and complete open access. That's the advice I'm looking for if she comes back.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Nucking Futs said:


> You're not going to check, though, are you?


Well, I confirmed that she is at a specific hotel. Other than showing up at her door, there's not much else I can do.

I think the end result decision will tell me if she was by herself or not.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Here is what I really need now at this point... I've got enough suggestions options if she chooses to leave. I'm got those steps in process and am meeting with a lawyer Monday. 

But, say she does come back and say she says she is ready to commit back to me and the family 100%. I'd like to allow her to do that, but under what conditions? What do I need from her to ensure that we can progress towards reconciliation and that I can trust her sincerity? Obviously I am very gun shy here.

For example:
1. Strict NC (this would be a no exception thing)
2. Open access to everything to verify #1
etc...

I really don't need advice as to if this is the right call or not, remember successful reconciliation is my end goal. I just need advice regarding if this is the path she chooses, how do I make sure she is sincere and we can be best set up to reconcile?


----------



## tom67

FamilyMan15 said:


> Here is what I really need now at this point... I've got enough suggestions options if she chooses to leave. I'm got those steps in process and am meeting with a lawyer Monday.
> 
> But, say she does come back and say she says she is ready to commit back to me and the family 100%. I'd like to allow her to do that, but under what conditions? What do I need from her to ensure that we can progress towards reconciliation and that I can trust her sincerity? Obviously I am very gun shy here.
> 
> For example:
> 1. Strict NC (this would be a no exception thing)
> 2. Open access to everything to verify #1
> etc...
> 
> I really don't need advice as to if this is the right call or not, remember successful reconciliation is my end goal. I just need advice regarding if this is the path she chooses, how do I make sure she is sincere and we can be best set up to reconcile?


It could be worse
Sigh
Read this don't know if it's real
SurvivingInfidelity.com - Going on 4 months - please help us heal (Long)


----------



## wmn1

tom67 said:


> It could be worse
> Sigh
> Read this don't know if it's real
> SurvivingInfidelity.com - Going on 4 months - please help us heal (Long)



wow guy is a wuss. 

Further, his wife is a con artist playing him.

At least HM called him out on it

Now after reading that FM, your thoughts on this guy ?


----------



## Chaparral

FamilyMan15 said:


> They met at the gym (or so the story goes). Not the OW's typical gym, my wife's gym. The OW lives an hour on the other side of town. I'm not sure why the OW was there, but you bet I'll find out if we do move past this. I need to find out danger zones.


Hmmmm, lesbian pick up artist trolling new territory.


----------



## happyman64

FamilyMan15 said:


> Good suggestion. There are underlying issues here clearly. Can I ask why share the affair with family?


Families pick up when there are issues at home.

Kids talk. Adults gossip.

It is a form of coming out about the issues going on in your marriage and that you are asking for your families support to help you or just support the two of you going forward.

It eases a burden off you and your wifes shoulders. It opens up communication in your family that there is a problem.

And it shows the Wayward Spouses commitment to communicate, share the problem and fix it.

If she stays in your marriage it will eventually come out.
If she leaves it will all come out.


----------



## Chaparral

The biggest reason to expose an affair is to get the support of the people related to the marriage and friends of the marriage. The point is to make the affair see the light of day and destroy it. Affair partners are like c*ck roaches. Often when you turn the lights on they scurry for cover.

What would your wife's parents say if they knew she was breaking up the family? Is this a big secret?

Her ap is probably accepted by her family, would they accept her breaking up a hetero family in order to raise children like they were her own?

Since I think the odds are against you in this, exposure may be the tool to break up the affair. But be warned, the first thing that comes out of her mouth is going to be anger and probably a statement like " Iwas going to come back to you until you did this, blah blah blah."

You should know this though it may only hold true in hetero cheating, the odds of successful reconciliation when the wife cheats is very low. Depending on you situation its hard to say if that's because the wife checks out and wont come back or if its just that men are much more unlikely to accept a cheating spouse than a woman.


----------



## Chaparral

Read this and see if it helps. Harley is the expert. Though their forum is supposed to be the pits.

When Should an Affair Be Exposed


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral very rarely I don't go along with you but I think its tough on this one as he's allowing her to go away and choose and it will most certainly push the wrong buttons at this delicate stage

Her last thoughts of him were a lot more pleasant than prior to as OP has said

I would save this for a bomb drop if her decision is to go back to the OW then go max on exposure

Its a decision I wouldn't like to make


----------



## bfree

G.J. said:


> Chaparral very rarely I don't go along with you but I think its tough on this one as he's allowing her to go away and choose and it will most certainly push the wrong buttons at this delicate stage
> 
> Her last thoughts of him were a lot more pleasant than prior to as OP has said
> 
> I would save this for a bomb drop if her decision is to go back to the OW then go max on exposure
> 
> Its a decision I wouldn't like to make


I agree. I wouldn't drop the bomb right now. Not if reconciliation is the desired outcome. One thing I would like to ask FM though. If she is the one cheating why is it up to her whether the marriage continues or not? Why do you have to sit on pins and needles waiting for her decision? That seems incredibly unfair to me and if I were a woman I would not "want" a man that gives me that power.


----------



## ButtPunch

She's knee deep in the affair fog. Exposure is the only tool he's got left. You guys are naive to think she's all alone in her hotel room contemplating life. OP is still in shock and appears to be emotionally frozen. He needs to wake up and find his nuts.


----------



## ButtPunch

Exposure to me is used to bust up the affair but mainly I think its insurance against it happening again. I know its not a guarantee but it helps. WW will not want to look in kids faces and say I messed up AGAIN.


----------



## Chaparral

G.J. said:


> Chaparral very rarely I don't go along with you but I think its tough on this one as he's allowing her to go away and choose and it will most certainly push the wrong buttons at this delicate stage
> 
> Her last thoughts of him were a lot more pleasant than prior to as OP has said
> 
> I would save this for a bomb drop if her decision is to go back to the OW then go max on exposure
> 
> Its a decision I wouldn't like to make


I wasn't suggesting he do anything, I was just trying to answer his question.

Experience here would say he has little chance. Its been months since she even would have sex with him. The other woman is fresh and new.

I think she is just doing this to fool him and maybe herself.

I have no idea what he could or should do except make it perfectly clear he will be trying for full custody.

Though its politically incorrect, my experience with gay couples raising children is disastrous. Look at the rate of homosexuality among those children. A study out last summer put the rate at 30% that's 600% above normal.

Another thing. At 60, all the guys I knew or met growing up that turned out to be gay are dead now, either from alcohol or aids.

A lesbian basketball coach at my sons high school was involved with her asst coach and was also at a dildo party for the new members of her team. THAT got her fired.


----------



## Chaparral

ButtPunch said:


> She's knee deep in the affair fog. Exposure is the only tool he's got left. You guys are naive to think she's all alone in her hotel room contemplating life. OP is still in shock and appears to be emotionally frozen. He needs to wake up and find his nuts.


Don't put me in the naive crowd. I would have driven by her girlfriends house and staked out her hotel.

Truthfully I would have just filed.


----------



## G.J.

G.J. said:


> Chaparral very rarely I don't go along with you but I think its tough on this one as he's allowing her to go away and choose and it will most certainly push the wrong buttons at this delicate stage
> 
> Her last thoughts of him were a lot more pleasant than prior to as OP has said
> 
> I would save this for a bomb drop if her decision is to go back to the OW then go max on exposure
> 
> Its a decision I wouldn't like to make


The only reason I have said above is because OP is giving his WW a free rein to hang herself and going that way bomb drop 
isn't the time, so that's why I posted above just to clarify

I understand what he's doing. don't agree but understand

I would have filed and started D and exposed from the start then if I wanted to R said I love you, the kids love you NC etc etc from now and work for it


----------



## Chaparral

But he is not keeping tabs on her. He is in essence taking the word of a liar and a cheat. How far has anyone else her gotten like that? Take your pick, zero and none.


----------



## G.J.

Chaparral said:


> But he is not keeping tabs on her. He is in essence taking the word of a liar and a cheat. How far has anyone else her gotten like that? Take your pick, zero and none.


yep no argument from me there


----------



## Nucking Futs

FamilyMan15 said:


> Well, I confirmed that she is at a specific hotel. Other than showing up at her door, there's not much else I can do.
> 
> I think the end result decision will tell me if she was by herself or not.


Wait a minute. You remember to exhale after every inhalation, you dress and feed yourself but you're not smart enough to come up with a way to see if your wife has company in her hotel room? That's what you're telling us? 

If you can't think of anything else, _show up at her door_! 

You know, it gets very frustrating to try to help someone who's response to every bit of good advice he gets is to make some excuse why he can't do it.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Nucking Futs said:


> Wait a minute. You remember to exhale after every inhalation, you dress and feed yourself but you're not smart enough to come up with a way to see if your wife has company in her hotel room? That's what you're telling us?
> 
> If you can't think of anything else, _show up at her door_!
> 
> You know, it gets very frustrating to try to help someone who's response to every bit of good advice he gets is to make some excuse why he can't do it.


You never simply trust a WS. That's one of your biggest mistakes OP. Spouses having affairs lie, they lie repeatedly and often and to your face.

You have to verify. Unfortunately you've taken no steps to do that.

Were I you OP, I would set a firm date in my mind for her to get off the fence, and it should be a very short time. 1 week, maybe 2 weeks. If she isn't committed to your marriage by then, then you tell her it's over.

And for heaven's sake, STICK TO IT! If you're afraid of losing her, confront your fears. Think them through, get help if you need to, because up until now you've let them -- and her -- decide for you.


----------



## FamilyMan15

So she showed up this morning and said that she was ready to commit to us 100%. It all was a huge mistake in a time when she was the most vulnerable... etc. She says that she thinks she was just emotionally caught up in everything vs. being bisexual or lesbian, but she wants to do individual counseling to get tot the root of the issue of what happened and try and figure out what she really is. 

I asked a lot of probing questions and she seems sincere. She's ready to commit to long term IC and MC to fix us, has agreed to tell the OW the deal and that she can not have not future contact, and has agreed to 100% open access. She insists that once she had time to see things clearly, all she wants is me and the family.

What now? Please don't tell me to kick her to the curb. She's agreed to commit to reconciliation. What do I do to help our chances?


----------



## ButtPunch

She tells your family and hers what she's done. Accept nothing less. No sweeping this under the rug.


----------



## anchorwatch

FamilyMan15 said:


> What do I do to help our chances?


You continue MC/IC. You read every book you find on the subject. You learn what a good marriage looks like. You learn that as a man, how you can be a leading force in a marriage. You learn what true remorse and forgiveness mean. Then you go about creating the marriage you both want.

Here's a start...

For the M, His Needs, Her Needs

For the A, Surviving an Affair

For you, Hold on to Your NUTs

Best


----------



## ButtPunch

A letter of no contact to OW with no sappy stuff.


----------



## D.H Mosquito

I'm no expert but betrayal is betrayal and she has to identify why she did and take steps to correct that and keep from any future situations where she could be tempted,
while this is happening look to yourself heal yourself you've had a hell of a gut punch here and need to recover from this and the roller coaster of emotions that will hit when the calm returns and she has to know that this could/will happen the highs and lows,
She has a lot to prove and needs to rebuild your confidence in you and confidence in the marriage before trust can return and both of you need to look at marriage in a critical eye and fix things on both your sides where things fell down and connections lost, i'm glad she came to her senses this will be one little step in your healing knowing you're better than the rest and that she remembered that you are plan A all along no one else just you, well it helped me heal


----------



## ButtPunch

Complete transparency. GNO is history. Any night out you are there.


----------



## ButtPunch

Do not trust her words. Verify everything. Her actions will show you not her promises


----------



## ButtPunch

I remember my wife coming to me one friday (while we were separated a couple of months)telling me how she was sorry and would work hard to fix us. She sexed me up all weekend. I was so hopeful. That monday though calls went unanswered and she went cold. 

OP....watch out!


----------



## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> So she showed up this morning and said that she was ready to commit to us 100%. It all was a huge mistake in a time when she was the most vulnerable... etc. She says that she thinks she was just emotionally caught up in everything vs. being bisexual or lesbian, but she wants to do individual counseling to get tot the root of the issue of what happened and try and figure out what she really is.
> 
> I asked a lot of probing questions and she seems sincere. She's ready to commit to long term IC and MC to fix us, has agreed to tell the OW the deal and that she can not have not future contact, and has agreed to 100% open access. She insists that once she had time to see things clearly, all she wants is me and the family.
> 
> What now? Please don't tell me to kick her to the curb. She's agreed to commit to reconciliation. What do I do to help our chances?


Excellent! So now the absolute first thing you need to understand is that in spite of her words the temptation to contact the affair partner or to make herself available to be contacted by the affair partner will be extremely strong. You need to make sure first and foremost that no contact is absolute. A letter of NC is usually the first step. If you both feel a phone call is better than it has to be on speaker so everything is out in the open for you to hear. Next you want to speak to family members and/or friends. Anyone that has influence over your wife and can be an extra level confidant that can help keep things moving in the right direction. She needs to go to IC to figure out what it was inside her that allowed her to betray you and her children. Make no mistake, she betrayed them also because her selfish choices could have resulted in the destruction of their family. She must be fully transparent. You have to have access to all of her means of communication. If non necessary things like Facebook were involved you can insist she close her account. You said they met at the gym. It goes without saying that she no longer attends that gym. In fact you might think about only allowing her to go to the gym with you, at least for a while. Understand that even after all of this her affair partner WILL attempt contact at some point. She must agree to completely blow her affair partner off and immediately notify you of the contact. After that it is up to you as to what you need. A timeline? If you need it she has to do it. A post nup? You are well within your rights to demand one. Just make sure that the consequences she faces for her betrayal are significant but understandable. If you don't make her face unpleasant consequences you run the real risk of it happening again.


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## PreRaphaelite

FamilyMan15 said:


> So she showed up this morning and said that she was ready to commit to us 100%. It all was a huge mistake in a time when she was the most vulnerable... etc. She says that she thinks she was just emotionally caught up in everything vs. being bisexual or lesbian, but she wants to do individual counseling to get tot the root of the issue of what happened and try and figure out what she really is.
> 
> I asked a lot of probing questions and she seems sincere. She's ready to commit to long term IC and MC to fix us, has agreed to tell the OW the deal and that she can not have not future contact, and has agreed to 100% open access. She insists that once she had time to see things clearly, all she wants is me and the family.
> 
> What now? Please don't tell me to kick her to the curb. She's agreed to commit to reconciliation. What do I do to help our chances?


I don't think any of us would tell you that! She's promised to commit 100%. 

1. NC period. absolutely, without a doubt. You tell her if she contacts the OW again then you will kick her to the curb.

2. Her commitment to IC and MC is very good. She has to completely own up to what she did. 

3. 100% transparency. She tells you everything, what happened, where, when and how. She gives you access to her computer, phones.

4. She tells you where she is going when she's out. She understands you have the right to call her at anytime.

This for starters.


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## Nucking Futs

PreRaphaelite said:


> I don't think any of us would tell you that! She's promised to commit 100%.
> 
> 1. NC period. absolutely, without a doubt. You tell her if she contacts the OW again then you will kick her to the curb.
> 
> 1.5 She must tell you as soon as possible if the OW attempts to contact her and, if in text form, show you. She's already failed on this once, you need to make it clear that hiding any further attempts at contact are a deal breaker.
> 
> 1.75 She may not delete texts or emails without your approval.
> 
> 2. Her commitment to IC and MC is very good. She has to completely own up to what she did.
> 
> 3. 100% transparency. She tells you everything, what happened, where, when and how. She gives you access to her computer, phones.
> 
> 4. She tells you where she is going when she's out. She understands you have the right to call her at anytime.
> 
> This for starters.


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## jld

Tell her you are on her side and that you are going to heal from the past together. 

Tell her that any time she has the desire to contact the other woman, she is to call you instead, that you will stop whatever you are doing to at the very least talk with her, if not actually be with her to hold her and reassure her. Tell her you are going to become her greatest ally in rebuilding the marriage.

Make sure you have lots of time for her. You need to be doing lots of talking, lots of bonding, and ideally lots of physical contact as both of you are ready.

Tell her you want to hear all of her thoughts and feelings, no matter how much they might hurt you. Be strong enough to hear them. The more dependency she can develop on you, the less available she's going to be to anyone else that might tempt her.


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## bfree

jld said:


> Tell her you are on her side and that you are going to heal from the past together.
> 
> Tell her that any time she has the desire to contact the other woman, she is to call you instead, that you will stop whatever you are doing to at the very least talk with her, if not actually be with her to hold her and reassure her. Tell her you are going to become her greatest ally in rebuilding the marriage.
> 
> Make sure you have lots of time for her. You need to be doing lots of talking, lots of bonding, and ideally lots of physical contact as both of you are ready.
> 
> Tell her you want to hear all of her thoughts and feelings, no matter how much they might hurt you. Be strong enough to hear them. The more dependency she can develop on you, the less available she's going to be to anyone else that might tempt her.


Yes! We can give you the nuts and bolts but you have to institute these things with this attitude in mind. You and your wife are a team. If you can get her to agree that these things are necessary and worthwhile you'll be that much further along. If you happen to view the reconciliation thread here in CWI you'll see that as much as B1 might have been in pain due to EI's betrayal he had the fortitude and compassion to listen to her words and empathize with her feelings even though she was the WS. As hard as it might be remember that you both have to heal if you want a truly rewarding marriage.


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## Hicks

First step is a no contact letter.
Serach on this site for examples.
She writes it. You read it. There are specficially good no contact letters and specifically terrible ones. How she writes it and her willingness to write and allow you to send it speak volumes.
Exposure is unneccesary if she is willing to break off the affair. 

No contact is a condition, and if you then discover contact you should then expose. This will tell your wife that you are very serious about protecting your marriage.

Read this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/94201-no-contact-letter.html


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## bfree

I'm not very good at this but I think this is the link to the Reconciliation Thread I mentioned.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?p=965200


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by FamilyMan15
> What do I do to help our chances?



Become the best and strongest man you can be in emotions, mind, and spirit
Give her all the support that you can
Go the extra mile to be firm and loving
If she will go get her to a PhD that specialized in child abuse
Pray with her


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## LongWalk

Are you going to initiate sex with her?


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## jld

OP, just want to tell you you're doing great. You have more work to do, but I know you're up to the task. 

Sit down with your wife and tell her that there are some success strategies you would like to employ for rebuilding the marriage. The first success strategy is going no contact with the other woman. This will provide the first step towards mental closure for your wife. As another poster suggested, have her write the letter in front of you, and then both of you go down to the post office together to mail it, certified. Hold her hand as you leave the post office. 

The second strategy is complete transparency. No more secrets! You want to know all of her thoughts, feelings, fears, all of it. Tell her and show her that you can handle it. Nothing that comes out is going to topple you. It may make you sad, it may hurt, but your love and resilience are stronger than any of that. This will be huge in your mutual bonding.

Again, she is to come to you with everything. Every scary thought, like when she is worried she has ruined the marriage, or that she will be tempted again. _The new rule has to be to come to you with everything! She is not allowed to keep secrets! _

Even if she has to wake you up at night, you will be there for her. Even if her parents were not there for her, you will be. She does not have to go it alone, no matter what happened in the past. You are there for her. She can trust you. _You are her man._

And you are a good man, OP. You have shown so much compassion and strength this last week. So much patience and fortitude. So impressive. 

Present these new parameters in a positive way to your wife. Help her see them as the way to freedom from the bondage of the past. Be there to guide her. Be the rock that she can lean on, the tree in whose branches she can sit. She is safe with you. Make sure she feels that. 

And please know how relieved some of us are to hear your children's lives are not going to be disrupted!


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## G.J.

FamilyMan15 said:


> So she showed up this morning and said that she was ready to commit to us 100%. It all was a huge mistake in a time when she was the most vulnerable... etc. She says that she thinks she was just emotionally caught up in everything vs. being bisexual or lesbian, but she wants to do individual counseling to get tot the root of the issue of what happened and try and figure out what she really is.
> 
> I asked a lot of probing questions and she seems sincere. She's ready to commit to long term IC and MC to fix us, has agreed to tell the OW the deal and that she can not have not future contact, and has agreed to 100% open access. She insists that once she had time to see things clearly, all she wants is me and the family.
> 
> What now? Please don't tell me to kick her to the curb. She's agreed to commit to reconciliation. What do I do to help our chances?


At this early stage im happy for you in as much as you have got her to say she wants to be with you100%
BUT
Make no mistake its a hard uphill sruggle for a couple of years and yes it does get easier as time goes on

The NC MUST be final and it must be by letter supervised by yourself and sent by you

She must say she no longer wants contact in any shape or form and it was a mistake and she loves her husband 
what the OW did is wrong in trying to take her from her family at a time of vulnerability
She wants to be a proper family again so please to respect her wish's as if she try's to contact her again she will 
inform her husband and have a restraining order placed on her.

IC and MC for you both but make sure the IC for her is pro marriage if that's possible

The books ref by 'Anchorwatch' already are a good start

She must be open about EVERYTIHNG her passwords email FB etc. (ask her if she would get rid of FB as its the start of so much infidelity)
even to where she is at all times of the day or you'll be a nervous wreck in a few weeks

No gym with out you, *in fact go together*

Tell her if the OW try's to contact her in anyway, to inform you at once, if she fails then you will file for D straight away 
and *ask her to leave *and *inform the whole family*
*no more chances*

She has to work on her marriage with you now

NO GNO its the down fall of lots of marriages..she married you why does she want GNO (don't ask me about when I was a teenager on Wednesday nights at bars we called it 'Grab a Granny' night

Have you had a timeline of where it started, when etc.
others involved even 

Key word *COMPLETE TRANSPARANCY* from her

p.s.
ask for STI test


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## seasalt

Tell her you can forgive her if she shows that she wants and deserves it by her words and deeds.

She can't ever be with or communicate with that woman again. She has to tell you if any attempt is made by her immediately.

Girls nights out that are spent in bars or clubs are not acceptable. Inordinately late nights without prior knowledge and appropriate accompaniment would be viewed as suspicious.

Tell her that you need this not to be considered as controlling but because she has proved herself to be unsafe. If she tells you that she will restore your trust in her, remind her that it was exactly that, your trust put there by you. She was only able to destroy it.

Of course now that you have what you've been hoping for you will also have to show her not that she made the right choice, but what she put at dire risk. Give her something that she is thankful for having every day in her life the way every wife with a good husband should feel.

My previous post(s) were harsh I know but if her desire to reconcile is genuine then I am very happy for you and your family.

Good luck,

Seasalt


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## Q tip

Consequences of breaking NC is divorce. If OW tries to contact in any way, she must break it off and inform you instantly. Or divorce. 

Expose to all family and friends. Do so that they will support you, her and your marriage.

Any situation that threatens her boundaries must immediately stop and you notified. 

She owns the responsibilities. You lead the marriage. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt

> As another poster suggested, have her write the letter in front of you, and then both of you go down to the post office together to mail it, certified. Hold her hand as you leave the post office.


If it has not already been suggested this is what I would add to the NC letter

To the OW from Mrs FamilyMan

What you and I have done is to put my family in great jeopardy; we are both guilty. My husband and children are the most important thing in the world to me and I want you completely out of my life. I have made 100% commitment to my husband and children and am adamant that you and I are history forever. You and I made a horrible decision and almost cost me my husband and my CHILDREN so do not even think about contacting me in any way. *STAY AWAY FROM ME FOREVER!*


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## Chaparral

This is great news. We need more of it.

Many have said they found this to be a good guide. Print off the wayward spouse instructions and go over it WITH her and be watchful of her to see if she is all in.

_*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
*_


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## Chaparral

The two books below shoud be a great guide. MMSLP for you and NOT JUST FRIENDS for you both.

Work out and get counseling for yourself as well. Your wife has a lot to address but all the problems in the marriage need to be addressed including yours.

Good luck and prayers for you and your family.

_Man, that must have been some bad hotel. You think we can can it?_


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## wmn1

good news FM and good luck. Now verify and be vigilant. Don't let your guard down yet


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## Tall Average Guy

As the euphoria of her choosing you starts to fade, be prepared for the other emotions that will start to push forward. Anger at her cheating, resentment over her keeping you in limbo, sadness over what you lost and the like.

Take care of yourself and don't ignore your emotions.


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## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> So she showed up this morning and said that she was ready to commit to us 100%. It all was a huge mistake in a time when she was the most vulnerable... etc.


 Congratulations, this is great news. So you went against your initial and common reaction to give her time, and decide that the best odds of saving your marriage was to let your wife know that you were willing to end it if she did not decide right now. Faced with the reality of it she decided not to throw away her marriage and her family. I am very happy for you. 

You have repeadtedly asked what to do if your wife did come back and say that she wanted to commit 100%. My answer is to please remember the success that you had by taking a strong approach with her in making her decide, and apply this attitude going forward as your wife will try to test the limits going forward.


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## bfree

Hope you're doing okay FM.


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## FamilyMan15

Thanks - we had a couple good days in general, but also had a couple set backs. I'll post more later.


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## G.J.

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks - we had a couple good days in general, but also had a couple set backs. I'll post more later.


Good
setbacks would be expected after so long 
Its like D day +1 again


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## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks - we had a couple good days in general, but also had a couple set backs. I'll post more later.



sorry to hear about the setbacks. Looking forward to later posts


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## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks - we had a couple good days in general, but also had a couple set backs. I'll post more later.


We're here for you brother.


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## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> So she showed up this morning and said that she was ready to commit to us 100%. It all was a huge mistake in a time when she was the most vulnerable... etc. She says that she thinks she was just emotionally caught up in everything vs. being bisexual or lesbian, but she wants to do individual counseling to get tot the root of the issue of what happened and try and figure out what she really is.
> 
> I asked a lot of probing questions and she seems sincere. She's ready to commit to long term IC and MC to fix us, has agreed to tell the OW the deal and that she can not have not future contact, and has agreed to 100% open access. She insists that once she had time to see things clearly, all she wants is me and the family.
> 
> What now? Please don't tell me to kick her to the curb. She's agreed to commit to reconciliation. What do I do to help our chances?


A few questions first:

1. Since she was only gone for what... two days? What was she doing during that time? What made her decide to want to recommit? Why, after she was caught and entered "Limbo" with you was she in that state for days/weeks, but needed only about 36 hours after leaving to change her mind? Regardless of her answers to this, do you trust that she's telling you the truth?

2. What has happened since she told you this? Have you allowed her to move back in? What other kinds of boundaries have been discussed? Are you scheduled for MC and possible IC appointments soon?


One thing I'm wary of in your case is how it also reminds me of the times my wife was busted in her affair, and how after very short periods of not being able to commit, she suddenly came to me doing fully everything she could to convince me of her sincerity in wanting to rebuild the marriage. Each time that I tried to give her a little bit of breathing space to "carefully make a decision of what she wants while in NC with the OM", once via asking her to leave for a few days like your wife did, another by my returning to work leaving her home alone all day long with zero accountability, I was burned by her reaching out to him. There were tears, there were dramatic acts of destroying her cell phone in front of me as "evidence", there were professions of her wanting to immediately work on getting pregnant with me again as some form of proof (or bribery maybe?), etc. Both times turned out to be nonsense. The "short periods of not being able to commit" was the time she was spending either trying to convince the other man to commit to her and "move out" together and make their relationship public, or initially trying to avoid him ("Limbo" time) for a while but then caving and communicating with him again for the same reasons. Most importantly, both of her sudden re-commitments to me and our marriage were driven 100% by her first choice (leaving with the OM) being taken off the table, and turned back to me only as her second choice, being desperately afraid of me walking away from her and leaving her alone.

That's sort of what this feels like. That's why I'm curious as to how she spent her time while she was away from home. That's why I'm so suspicious regarding her very quick change of heart from being completely undecided and in love with the OW, to appearing at your doorstep so soon after regaining her non-accountable freedom in order to convince you of how firmly she is committed to you and the marriage, saying all of the exact correct things that you would want to hear. It's just incredibly suspect to me that she would come to that dramatic change after so short a time *without* having interacted with the OW in some form. 


Anyhow, if you are convinced of her sincerity, my thoughts are:

In addition to NC and full access, if you haven't already had it, you should have a sit down conversation with her that demands full transparency from her so that you can ask any questions about the affair/relationship with the OW that you want to ask. It can be very important that you feel that there aren't any secrets, or anything else you should be worried about, not to mention possibly remove any potential triggers for *either of you.* For example, let's say that regularly met at a particular coffee shop during the affair. It'd probably be best to never accidentally take your wife there for coffee. If she and the OW had sex on a particular rug in your living room, it might be best to get rid of that rug. If they most often used an app like SnapChat to communicate, I would suggest banning that app from your phones. (Then again, I think SnapChat is always, always a bad sign on a spouses phone)

It's great that she can commit to rebuilding the marriage, but I that is way too vague. You need a plan for accomplishing it and that plan should be laid out completely and committed to by both of you. It's easy to say, "I'll do whatever it takes!" but will they be just as committed if the MC informs her that she should lose access to her vehicle during the day when you are at work because she might be tempted to go see the OW and you aren't sure if you can trust her? Or what if the MC suggests that your wife not be allowed to own a smartphone anymore because it's too easy to lead a secret life from it, instead she should get a cheap $20 "dumb phone" that only makes calls and texts? What if she's required to quit her gym or switch to another gym further away that she doesn't like? I think it's important that all of this be understood.

Further, working with the MC, I think it might even be a good idea to create a plan for rebuilding your romantic lives as well. For instance, can you both make a plan to go out on a date every other week? To have a movie night at home together without the kids? To maybe take 15 minutes before bed most nights to discuss your thoughts/feelings (in general, not just regarding the marriage), etc. Just an idea.

One more thought, you should both establish a VERY FIRM understanding of what the plan will be if the OW contacts your wife. To be more clear, I think that plan needs to be that she will inform you immediately, via call or text message if you aren't together at that moment, and she will NOT respond in any form until you both have decided on the response together, and enact that response together. (I say that because I have seen scenarios where a cheating spouse receives a text from the ex-affair partner, and then informs their spouse about it later that night, after they have supposedly sent a response saying how they don't want to be contacted. Turned out, the affair had gone underground and the affair partner accidentally sent a message to the wrong # or account. The cheating spouse needs to cover it up in case the BS see's the # appear on the phone bill, so they reach out to the affair partner to send another message to the same phone/account saying something like, "I miss you babe, please talk to me." which the cheating spouse can then respond to with "Please do not contact me" or something similar, with which she can show her spouse as evidence of having done the right thing, having deleted the original accidental text.) There are several ways to lie/confuse/cover up things like this. So the best rule is simply no response, no deleting, no anything, until both of you can handle it together.


----------



## FamilyMan15

So in general, everything's been pretty good. She's definitely going through the mourning period of detaching from the OW. But emotionally, she's been opening up like she wasn't before her decision. 

Setbacks:
1. I originally pictured this whole thing being a deal where she was vulnerable, and an aggressive lesbian took advantage (she originally told me that they met at the gym). When she came back Saturday, we had a "truth" conversation and some additional facts came out. Apparently she went on Match.com looking for "women seeking women" and initiated contact with the OW. When I probed this issue, she responded "honestly I don't know what I was looking for" and I got angry and left (I didn't believe it). 
This frames the whole thing differently. Ultimately, reconciliation is still my goal, but looking to initiate an affair makes it much harder to to get past. I think I'll save this to dig into in MC as it's really more of a past thing and we need to focus now on rebuilding. It does bring the sexual identity thing back into the mix though. Maybe she was unhappy and wondering if it was because she was a lesbian and went to explore it and see. Obviously, still not ok, but I need to understand the motivation to prevent it in the future. Maybe she truly is bisexual. She has IC Thursday, so hopefully they'll explore this more. We'll definitely talk about it in MC. I also wonder where the motivation to explore this came from (a bisexual friend?) - it just seems so out of character. She said it's been on her mind for a year. I wonder what happened a year ago?

2. Last night she was visibly upset. I asked her what was wring and she said nothing. I asked her if she was in contact with the OW and she said no. I've been logging her texts, so I went and checked and saw a text from an upset OW talking about a call and that "it shouldn't end like this". When confronted with the facts, she confessed that the OW had reached out for more explanation and she called her back to ask her to stop calling and texting (and the texts after from the OW confirm it). She didn't want to tell me because it would upset me. I explained that the lie was MUCH MUCH worse and after a long fight asked her to sleep in the guest room. In the morning, I decided rather than to kick her out, that I would give her the smallest bit of slack given the situation and made it clear that, even if she thought it would hurt, I needed to be told of any contact and we could figure out a response together. Any further dishonesty would mean saying goodbye for good. She understood and agreed.

So, while there were some set backs, I think we are on a decent path. Rebuilding honesty is going to be an uphill battle. and frankly, I think she's been lying for so long about everything, it's going to be a tough habit to break. But, it's a must.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> A few questions first:
> 
> 1. Since she was only gone for what... two days? What was she doing during that time? What made her decide to want to recommit? Why, after she was caught and entered "Limbo" with you was she in that state for days/weeks, but needed only about 36 hours after leaving to change her mind? Regardless of her answers to this, do you trust that she's telling you the truth?
> 
> 2. What has happened since she told you this? Have you allowed her to move back in? What other kinds of boundaries have been discussed? Are you scheduled for MC and possible IC appointments soon?


She was gone from Thursday night to Saturday morning. She said she just need some space to think and make sure she was sure what she wanted (me apparently). Her dad died two weeks ago last Friday (I actually discovered them the night before the funeral), so she's been a basket case emotionally as you can imagine. I think she was considering her two options (limbo) over the last week and just needed me to stop whispering in her ear for a bit. Who knows. She seems sincere now, but I think still confused at some level by her sexuality. But ultimately, she believes she can be happy with me. If this sticks, who knows. 

She has moved back in and the boundaries were: commit 100%, not contact (already broken, but basically to say "leave me alone", and 100% open access). We have MC for us scheduled and IC for her scheduled. Additional boundaries will be discussed during MC.

I'll respond to the rest of your post separately.


----------



## convert

wow read cdbaker post above your's it sounds a lot like your situation

I hope it works but IDK


----------



## Nucking Futs

FamilyMan15 said:


> So in general, everything's been pretty good. She's definitely going through the mourning period of detaching from the OW. But emotionally, she's been opening up like she wasn't before her decision.
> 
> Setbacks:
> 1. I originally pictured this whole thing being a deal where she was vulnerable, and an aggressive lesbian took advantage (she originally told me that they met at the gym). When she came back Saturday, we had a "truth" conversation and some additional facts came out. Apparently she went on Match.com looking for "women seeking women" and initiated contact with the OW. When I probed this issue, she responded "honestly I don't know what I was looking for" and I got angry and left (I didn't believe it).
> This frames the whole thing differently. Ultimately, reconciliation is still my goal, but looking to initiate an affair makes it much harder to to get past. I think I'll save this to dig into in MC as it's really more of a past thing and we need to focus now on rebuilding. It does bring the sexual identity thing back into the mix though. Maybe she was unhappy and wondering if it was because she was a lesbian and went to explore it and see. Obviously, still not ok, but I need to understand the motivation to prevent it in the future. Maybe she truly is bisexual. She has IC Thursday, so hopefully they'll explore this more. We'll definitely talk about it in MC. I also wonder where the motivation to explore this came from (a bisexual friend?) - it just seems so out of character. She said it's been on her mind for a year. I wonder what happened a year ago?
> 
> 2. Last night she was visibly upset. I asked her what was wring and she said nothing. I asked her if she was in contact with the OW and she said no. I've been logging her texts, so I went and checked and saw a text from an upset OW talking about a call and that "it shouldn't end like this". When confronted with the facts, she confessed that the OW had reached out for more explanation and she called her back to ask her to stop calling and texting (and the texts after from the OW confirm it). She didn't want to tell me because it would upset me. I explained that the lie was MUCH MUCH worse and after a long fight asked her to sleep in the guest room. In the morning, I decided rather than to kick her out, that I would give her the smallest bit of slack given the situation and made it clear that, even if she thought it would hurt, I needed to be told of any contact and we could figure out a response together. Any further dishonesty would mean saying goodbye for good. She understood and agreed.
> 
> So, while there were some set backs, I think we are on a decent path. Rebuilding honesty is going to be an uphill battle. and frankly, I think she's been lying for so long about everything, it's going to be a tough habit to break. But, it's a must.


I think odds of successful R have gone down with finding out that she went looking for an affair. If you had known that truth before you went seeking R would you still have gone for it or would that have changed things for you?

Also, that's the second time she's hidden contact from OW from you. She agreed to the boundary, broke it, agreed to it again, broke it again. I hope you've got vars in place.


----------



## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> So in general, everything's been pretty good. She's definitely going through the mourning period of detaching from the OW. But emotionally, she's been opening up like she wasn't before her decision.
> 
> Setbacks:
> 1. I originally pictured this whole thing being a deal where she was vulnerable, and an aggressive lesbian took advantage (she originally told me that they met at the gym). When she came back Saturday, we had a "truth" conversation and some additional facts came out. Apparently she went on Match.com looking for "women seeking women" and initiated contact with the OW. When I probed this issue, she responded "honestly I don't know what I was looking for" and I got angry and left (I didn't believe it).
> This frames the whole thing differently. Ultimately, reconciliation is still my goal, but looking to initiate an affair makes it much harder to to get past. I think I'll save this to dig into in MC as it's really more of a past thing and we need to focus now on rebuilding. It does bring the sexual identity thing back into the mix though. Maybe she was unhappy and wondering if it was because she was a lesbian and went to explore it and see. Obviously, still not ok, but I need to understand the motivation to prevent it in the future. Maybe she truly is bisexual. She has IC Thursday, so hopefully they'll explore this more. We'll definitely talk about it in MC. I also wonder where the motivation to explore this came from (a bisexual friend?) - it just seems so out of character. She said it's been on her mind for a year. I wonder what happened a year ago?
> 
> 2. Last night she was visibly upset. I asked her what was wring and she said nothing. I asked her if she was in contact with the OW and she said no. I've been logging her texts, so I went and checked and saw a text from an upset OW talking about a call and that "it shouldn't end like this". When confronted with the facts, she confessed that the OW had reached out for more explanation and she called her back to ask her to stop calling and texting (and the texts after from the OW confirm it). She didn't want to tell me because it would upset me. I explained that the lie was MUCH MUCH worse and after a long fight asked her to sleep in the guest room. In the morning, I decided rather than to kick her out, that I would give her the smallest bit of slack given the situation and made it clear that, even if she thought it would hurt, I needed to be told of any contact and we could figure out a response together. Any further dishonesty would mean saying goodbye for good. She understood and agreed.
> 
> So, while there were some set backs, I think we are on a decent path. Rebuilding honesty is going to be an uphill battle. and frankly, I think she's been lying for so long about everything, it's going to be a tough habit to break. But, it's a must.


Yikes, you're right about there being setbacks. The match.com thing changes it a bit... I know you have said that you've learned a lot recently about ways in which you weren't the best husband to her either, and that you haven't treated her the way she should be and feel at least somewhat responsible for a small part of what led to this. I can completely understand and respect that. That sets the stage well for a wife who is extremely vulnerable to someone else who wants to take advantage. This new info however might change that a bit, but it might not. I guess that would make me ask a few new questions. Like when did she first decide to explore match.com or other sites and start contacting other people? Was she only seeking other females or was she in contact with men as well? (Either her contacting them, or simply responding to their inquiries?) If she only sought out women, why only women and not men too?

I'll throw one tiny possibility into the mix. I have known and heard of men who are very much attracted to their wives, love their wives completely, have more or less good marriages that they have no intention of ending, but also occasionally like to "hook up" with a guy on the side. Definitely not an affair, not seeking any kind of relationship, often times not even attracted to men at all, but just being into a quickie sexual romp, sometimes only receiving a BJ. They don't seek out women for such things, only men. I always had the impression that they did so out of some twisted view that while accepting that it was still wrong for them to cheat on their wives in that way, that with a male-male sex-only encounter, it's somehow "less wrong" than if it were with a woman. Just a thought that came to mind. (Take this for a grain of salt, as it probably doesn't cross-apply to women)


The 2nd setback seems worse than the first however, for several reasons. One: She AGAIN lied about her contact with the OW. Gosh... I understand your hesitancy to ask her to leave again, but I really think that is exactly what should have happened. I worry that not doing so has shot yourself in the foot, again, by showing weakness and a willingness to be flexible in your "boundaries." I REALLY think the best thing you could do now is to ask her to leave again. If you want to explain why, just pitch it as your needing time to really think hard about this latest betrayal and how it impacts your view of the situation. Don't put any time limits either, like saying "for a while" or suggesting that you're still fully committed to the marriage by indicating up front that she can return later, like, "and come back when you are ready to really commit" or anything like that.

Second: It proves (in my view) that she WAS in contact with the OW during the very short time she was out of your home and before she returned to recommit, via her saying that the other woman was unhappy with how the relationship had been ended. Obviously that had to have taken place before she came home to recommit, after she had so completely sworn to you that she would have no NC when she left, and had no contact with OW while she was gone when she returned. 

Third: The OW wasn't able to wait around for very long at all after being told that there would be NC. According to your wife, that happened a long while ago after the affair was first discovered and your wife entered "Limbo" while saying that there was NC with the OW. That time the OW didn't get emotional/desperate by breaking NC and reaching out to your wife, but that's exactly what she did this time. We all suspected all along that your wife wasn't really in NC with the OW during the period of "limbo" or especially when she left the home for the hotel. To me, this seems like more evidence that they had gone underground to some degree during that time.

(If you want a silver lining, it also seems like evidence that your wife really did actually inform the OW that their relationship was over and that she needed NC prior to coming home to you on Saturday and asking for a chance to recommit, even if she did so while breaking several promises that she would not have contact with her, and did not have contact with her while away)

Fourth: It indicates that the OW might not go away willingly, meaning that this phone/text contact you've found might only be the first attempt she's made to try to get your wife to reconsider, or just the only one you're aware of. She could resort to other tactics, like try to stop by when you're away at work, run into her at the gym, facebook stalk her if her posts aren't set to private, reach out via other secret accounts that you aren't aware of. Etc. This last one isn't your wife's fault of course, but it could be a big problem none-the-less. As an example, the last thing a recovering drug addict needs is a desperate drug dealer trying to gain access to them with offers of free drugs.


One last thought, regardless of whether you ask your wife to leave again or not, with the latest bit of info above, I'm more inclined to think that you should contact the OW and have an in depth conversation, in person if at all possible. With your wife proving increasingly and repeatedly untrustworthy, and an affair partner who isn't going away peacefully, I'm thinking it is time to contact her. Why? First, you can try to fact check the story that your wife is telling you. How did they really meet? Who genuinely pursued who? Was it a romantic/sexual relationship from the get go or did it start as friends? Who pushed it to sex/romance? How long ago did it start? What had your wife told her about the status of your marriage/relationship? Especially, what kind of contact has she had with your wife since you discovered the affair? (Like when was the OW told that your wife wanted NC? How have they been communicating since that time?) Second, After you tell her the truth of the situation, it's worth asking her if she is willing to walk away voluntarily a this point, and whether you should be concerned with her showing up again in the future? It's quite possible that her perception of you and your wife's marriage was extremely inaccurate. For instance, your wife could have been explaining away her willingness to cheat by claiming you are an abusive alcoholic who gambles away every penny or cheats on her rampantly. If that's what she thinks, it might make sense why she might be unwilling to walk away now, because in that scenario she might just be worried about your wife walking back into an awful/dangerous situation by staying with you.

I'd be sure to do this *WITHOUT* tipping your wife off in advance, for sure. If afterwards her first reaction is anger, then I think that will confirm you've made the right decision because anger will mean that she doesn't feel remorse for her actions and feels that she was entitled to what she did and to you believing her lies. IF her reaction is guilt/shame, then that's possibly a good sign, one that you can build on if you choose to at that point.


----------



## cdbaker

I'll repeat what I posted below, before your latest revelation regarding how your wife handled the OW trying to reach out to her again. It sounds like I "called it" here.



cdbaker said:


> One more thought, you should both establish a VERY FIRM understanding of what the plan will be if the OW contacts your wife. To be more clear, I think that plan needs to be that she will inform you immediately, via call or text message if you aren't together at that moment, and she will NOT respond in any form until you both have decided on the response together, and enact that response together if a response is called for. (I say that because I have seen scenarios where a cheating spouse receives a text from the ex-affair partner, and then informs their spouse about it later that night, after they have supposedly sent a response saying how they don't want to be contacted. Turned out, the affair had gone underground and the affair partner accidentally sent a message to the wrong # or account. The cheating spouse needs to cover it up in case the BS see's the # appear on the phone bill, so they reach out to the affair partner to send another message to the same phone/account saying something like, "I miss you babe, please talk to me." which the cheating spouse can then respond to with "Please do not contact me" or something similar, with which she can show her spouse as evidence of having done the right thing, having deleted the original accidental text.) There are several ways to lie/confuse/cover up things like this. So the best rule is simply no response, no deleting, no anything, until both of you can handle it together.


The point again being that a cheating spouse's "desire to avoid hurting you further" can easily just be part of another cover-up. The OW reaching out to your wife isn't your wife's fault, it can even be expected to a degree, but the ONLY way you can verify her innocence is if you are allowed to see the original message/missed call/voicemail that has NOT been responded to or deleted, and verify that it was only that single message/missed call/voicemail that was sent/received via the cell phone bill. IF that is handled the way it should be above, then she is essentially innocent, has done nothing wrong, and by doing the right thing she has actually taken a tiny step towards rebuilding trust with you. Handling it any other way represents another repeat betrayal unfortunately.


----------



## bfree

I don't have the time for a longer post but I do want to quickly mention a couple of things.

I warned you that the OW would try to initiate contact. And it happened. I also told you it would be very difficult for your wife to completely break contact cold turkey. Good for you in not being draconian and explaining to her what the hard boundaries are and why they are needed. I believe I also said that the correct way for your wife to handle that contact was to blow the OW off. Good for her because it looks like that is exactly what she did. While you can be a little upset that she didn't inform you of the contact I do hope you hugged her and thanked her for how she handled the OW's messages. Many former waywards would try to let their affair partners down easy. Sounds like your wife handled it about as well as she could considering how raw this all is to her.

Second point. While it seems bad that your wife sought out the affair I'm going to tell you a little secret that most here on TAM won't share. If she was feeling very "unfulfilled" ie. confused, hurt, resentful, fearful (like in a MLC) etc. it would not be unusual for someone to do the exact thing that your wife did. I know for a fact that it happens much much more than is known. It is just not admitted to. The fact that she did admit it to me shows that she is indeed all in. She is trusting you with all her dirty secrets. She's completely opening up to you. Or at least she's in the beginning stages of doing that. Again, I don't see this as a negative. I see it as she is laying her soul bare for you to see. She is giving you the missing puzzle pieces so you can see everything that she sees. Most BS's don't get this from their WS's. It's a good sign.

I think if you treat this reconciliation as you and her are a team working toward a common goal you have a good chance. Give her credit when she does do things the way they should be done. Thank her when she does things that make you feel better and help heal the damage she's wrought. And admonish her when she screws up...and she will. As long as her missteps are not repeated over and over you'll be building toward the eventual destination. Remember, as much pain as you are in she is feeling tremendous guilt and confusion as well. Helping her to help you is what you're striving for.


----------



## farsidejunky

bfree said:


> I don't have the time for a longer post but I do want to quickly mention a couple of things.
> 
> I warned you that the OW would try to initiate contact. And it happened. I also told you it would be very difficult for your wife to completely break contact cold turkey. Good for you in not being draconian and explaining to her what the hard boundaries are and why they are needed. I believe I also said that the correct way for your wife to handle that contact was to blow the OW off. Good for her because it looks like that is exactly what she did. While you can be a little upset that she didn't inform you of the contact I do hope you hugged her and thanked her for how she handled the OW's messages. Many former waywards would try to let their affair partners down easy. Sounds like your wife handled it about as well as she could considering how raw this all is to her.
> 
> Second point. While it seems bad that your wife sought out the affair I'm going to tell you a little secret that most here on TAM won't share. If she was feeling very "unfulfilled" ie. confused, hurt, resentful, fearful (like in a MLC) etc. it would not be unusual for someone to do the exact thing that your wife did. I know for a fact that it happens much much more than is known. It is just not admitted to. The fact that she did admit it to me shows that she is indeed all in. She is trusting you with all her dirty secrets. She's completely opening up to you. Or at least she's in the beginning stages of doing that. Again, I don't see this as a negative. I see it as she is laying her soul bare for you to see. She is giving you the missing puzzle pieces so you can see everything that she sees. Most BS's don't get this from their WS's. It's a good sign.
> 
> I think if you treat this reconciliation as you and her are a team working toward a common goal you have a good chance. Give her credit when she does do things the way they should be done. Thank her when she does things that make you feel better and help heal the damage she's wrought. And admonish her when she screws up...and she will. As long as her missteps are not repeated over and over you'll be building toward the eventual destination. Remember, as much pain as you are in she is feeling tremendous guilt and confusion as well. Helping her to help you is what you're striving for.


Excellent post, bfree.


----------



## jld

Are you making it easy for her to be honest with you?


----------



## Q tip

So she can freely communicate with OW and lie about it. I'm confused. What's different again..??


----------



## farsidejunky

Q tip said:


> So she can freely communicate with OW and lie about it. I'm confused. What's different again..??


Show me where any one said that and then I will answer that question.


----------



## LongWalk

Of course it is a good thing that she came clean about her foray into the women looking for women personals. Only the truth can be the basis for R.

You need to ask your wife how much she has been fantasizing about women. Did she, does she need to think about women when the two of you are having sex? Can you stand that? Maybe the two of you can watch lesbian porn while having sex?

R is a route with risk but to succeed your wife is going to have open herself up more.


----------



## jld

Why would watching lesbian porn, or porn at all, be helpful, LW? 

How about encouraging him to deepen their relationship by connecting emotionally and helping her feel safe with him?


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> Why would watching lesbian porn, or porn at all, be helpful, LW?
> 
> How about encouraging him to deepen their relationship by connecting emotionally and helping her feel safe with him?


Women like a man who exhibits strength but can connect emotionally.

The best description of this came from my wife who said I can be a bastard but I get her.


----------



## cdbaker

farsidejunky said:


> Show me where any one said that and then I will answer that question.


I don't think he meant to say that she literally has open permission to communicate with the OW and lie about it. He's just interpreting the sequence of events in such a way where what he's saying has effectively proven true. His point being that she had the affair with the other woman, obviously lied about it, and he let it go. (That's once) During MC, it came out that she had contact with the OW again a day or so previously without telling him and lying about it when asked, and he let it go. (That's twice) Most recently it comes out that the OW contacted her and she responded on her own, without telling him about it and initially lying about it again and he again let it go. That's three times. So while his delivery was certainly of a sarcastic nature of sort, his point I believe was that if our actions speak louder than our words, then the OP is indeed effectively reinforcing the notion that she can lie repeatedly without consequence.

I don't think he would say that it's wrong to forgive, especially once or maybe twice, but after that, you've got to ask if you are doing more harm than good.


----------



## Coldie

FamilyMan15 said:


> The first 15 years of my marriage were awesome. My wife and I met in college and were very much in love. Lots of love throughout our marriage and great physical and emotional intimacy. We have two elementary-age children.
> 
> But the last 4 years have been a struggle. New jobs and relationship led to lots of conflicts over careers and priorities etc.. that slowly deteriorated our relationship until my wife had an affair with a woman starting in 4 months ago. I just discovered it. She had been going through an identity crisis for the last year due to the loss of a career and was at a low point in our marriage. She has recently broken the relationship off to attempt reconciliation, but is questioning her sexuality and if reconciliation is even possible.
> 
> She is currently living at home and is willing to seek counseling (we are going next week), but ultimately she is torn between a potential new life with her girlfriend and her loyalty to her family and husband. She is concerned that if the sexuality issues are unaddressed, once the children leave, we will split up and it will be too late to start a new life. It wasn't a fling - they had long-term plans to raise children etc...
> 
> I realize that there were many many things that I did to drive her away, and regret them immensely, and am willing to change everything and do anything to save our relationship. Ultimately, I love her more than anything and want to save out marriage. My current plan is to make extraordinary effort to show her that I can be the person that she used to love and see a counselor for advice along the way. She has agreed... at least for now. I hope that with time with the new me and counseling to help resolve our issues, her love can be rekindled and we can save our marriage and family. Faced with losing my wife, all the old issues that seemed so big at the time are suddenly insignificant. But if she truly is a lesbian (vs. it being a situational thing), there is not much I can do.
> 
> Fundamental problem #1: Wife says she is deeply questioning her sexuality (and has been for the past year) and thinks she might be a lesbian but doesn't want to risk the family breakup unless she is sure as that has devastating consequences. I think that she is/was trying to escape a deteriorating relationship and an identity crisis and was able to find a loving, supportive partner who filled all the emotional voids left by my emotional distance and my continued driving her away over many years. I believe our relationship is fixable, but am afraid it might be too late.
> 
> Fundamental problem #2: Wife is still is unsure of which relationship she wants. Without both fully committed to rebuilding the relationship, chance for reconciliation seems small. If my wife is here merely out of obligation to the marriage and family, can a reconciliation happen?
> 
> Where do we go from here? How do we rebuild our relationship? How do we recover from the affair?


My wife is the same way. She doesn't like men, only women, but she loves me. We have threesomes and she enjoys women, especially telling them what to do to me. 

We've been living this lifestyle for maybe 2 years now with no issues other than we both are slowing down and reverting back to our previous lifestyle where we do not have as many threesomes.

I'm sure that doesn't help you, but I just am not jealous about other women and it doesn't bother me. I also trust my wife and rather than her cheating, she opened up to me first and did all her experimenting while I was with her.

Good luck.


----------



## happyman64

Coldie

At least your wife opened up to you first and did it truthfully.

Family Man was never given that option.

FAmily Man

Small setbacks are normal. Make her feel that she can be honest with you with anything. But also make her realize there are consequences for her bad decisions.

If she wants you to trust her again she has to tell you the truth.

Old habits die hard. Keep calling her out.

HM


----------



## wmn1

you don't need threesomes. You just need a wife who is willing to abide by her marital vows and be loyal to you, the way it should have been from the start.

threesomes are great in the mind of a single guy who is trying to get as much as he can. That stuff is supposed to be long past before marriage


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> So in general, everything's been pretty good. She's definitely going through the mourning period of detaching from the OW. But emotionally, she's been opening up like she wasn't before her decision.
> 
> Setbacks:
> 1. I originally pictured this whole thing being a deal where she was vulnerable, and an aggressive lesbian took advantage (she originally told me that they met at the gym). When she came back Saturday, we had a "truth" conversation and some additional facts came out. Apparently she went on Match.com looking for "women seeking women" and initiated contact with the OW. When I probed this issue, she responded "honestly I don't know what I was looking for" and I got angry and left (I didn't believe it).
> This frames the whole thing differently. Ultimately, reconciliation is still my goal, but looking to initiate an affair makes it much harder to to get past. I think I'll save this to dig into in MC as it's really more of a past thing and we need to focus now on rebuilding. It does bring the sexual identity thing back into the mix though. Maybe she was unhappy and wondering if it was because she was a lesbian and went to explore it and see. Obviously, still not ok, but I need to understand the motivation to prevent it in the future. Maybe she truly is bisexual. She has IC Thursday, so hopefully they'll explore this more. We'll definitely talk about it in MC. I also wonder where the motivation to explore this came from (a bisexual friend?) - it just seems so out of character. She said it's been on her mind for a year. I wonder what happened a year ago?
> 
> 2. Last night she was visibly upset. I asked her what was wring and she said nothing. I asked her if she was in contact with the OW and she said no. I've been logging her texts, so I went and checked and saw a text from an upset OW talking about a call and that "it shouldn't end like this". When confronted with the facts, she confessed that the OW had reached out for more explanation and she called her back to ask her to stop calling and texting (and the texts after from the OW confirm it). She didn't want to tell me because it would upset me. I explained that the lie was MUCH MUCH worse and after a long fight asked her to sleep in the guest room. In the morning, I decided rather than to kick her out, that I would give her the smallest bit of slack given the situation and made it clear that, even if she thought it would hurt, I needed to be told of any contact and we could figure out a response together. Any further dishonesty would mean saying goodbye for good. She understood and agreed.
> 
> So, while there were some set backs, I think we are on a decent path. Rebuilding honesty is going to be an uphill battle. and frankly, I think she's been lying for so long about everything, it's going to be a tough habit to break. But, it's a must.


at least the 'contact' was her ending it which is a good thing


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> Why would watching lesbian porn, or porn at all, be helpful, LW?
> 
> How about encouraging him to deepen their relationship by connecting emotionally and helping her feel safe with him?


what about her making him feel safe with her ?


----------



## Nucking Futs

wmn1 said:


> what about her making him feel safe with her ?


Don't be silly. Don't you realize that the health of the relationship is all on the man, the woman is just along for the ride?

/sarc


----------



## jld

I don't know why you're laughing. Unless he is a submissive male, he is going to have to make her feel safe in the relationship. That's how it works.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

It has to start somewhere. Family Man has his values intact. He can go through the day and never have to lie or feel the need to lie.

The same cannot be said for his wife.

She is a wayward and has just started to get off the fence and verbally has chosen the marriage.

It won't happen in a day.

She won't stop lying right away. She wont just stop contact with the OW right away.

And the OW is a problem.

Like all affairs we have seen on TAM the wayward spouse very rarely toes the line and does everything right the first time.

Sad but true.

So his wife is not going to make him feel secure day one two or for a few months most likely.


Rome was not built in a day.....

HM


----------



## karole

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It has to start somewhere. Family Man has his values intact. He can go through the day and never have to lie or feel the need to lie.
> 
> The same cannot be said for his wife.
> 
> She is a wayward and has just started to get off the fence and verbally has chosen the marriage.
> 
> It won't happen in a day.
> 
> She won't stop lying right away. She wont just stop contact with the OW right away.
> 
> And the OW is a problem.
> 
> Like all affairs we have seen on TAM the wayward spouse very rarely toes the line and does everything right the first time.
> 
> Sad but true.
> 
> So his wife is not going to make him feel secure day one two or for a few months most likely.
> 
> 
> Rome was not built in a day.....
> 
> HM


Sad, yet true..........


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> I don't know why you're laughing. Unless he is a submissive male, he is going to have to make her feel safe in the relationship. That's how it works.


JLD,

He's not the one who stepped out nor is he the one who blew up a long term marriage.

He's done yeoman's work trying to keep this together and while I don't agree with his moves, she is the one who has caused the damage, she is the one who needs to make sure he heals. 

She owes it to him to make sure that he feels safe, that she's now not going to go off and hook up with the mail lady, the cashier at Safeway Food Stores or the local school teacher. He has nothing that he has to do for her. It's all on her at this point.

She's the one who has screwed everything up, the onus is on her


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I don't know why you're laughing. Unless he is a submissive male, he is going to have to make her feel safe in the relationship. That's how it works.


You know jld, you come across as a misogynist. I don't think you really are one but for crying out loud, are you really going to sit there and tell us that women are always the helpless victims when a marriage comes unglued? Isn't it at all possible that a man who does everything right still can have his marriage fall apart because his wife doesn't uphold her end? Or do you believe that gracing a man with her mere presence is all that any woman has to do and the rest of the work in a marriage is on him?

Misogynist? Yep. You don't appear to believe that women are capable of contributing to the health of a marriage.


----------



## wmn1

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It has to start somewhere. Family Man has his values intact. He can go through the day and never have to lie or feel the need to lie.
> 
> The same cannot be said for his wife.
> 
> She is a wayward and has just started to get off the fence and verbally has chosen the marriage.
> 
> It won't happen in a day.
> 
> She won't stop lying right away. She wont just stop contact with the OW right away.
> 
> And the OW is a problem.
> 
> Like all affairs we have seen on TAM the wayward spouse very rarely toes the line and does everything right the first time.
> 
> Sad but true.
> 
> So his wife is not going to make him feel secure day one two or for a few months most likely.
> 
> 
> Rome was not built in a day.....
> 
> HM


but she has to if she wants to save the marriage so it's 3 balls 2 strikes in the bottom of the 9th, man on third, two outs. What is she going to do


----------



## happyman64

wmn1 said:


> JLD,
> 
> He's not the one who stepped out nor is he the one who blew up a long term marriage.
> 
> He's done yeoman's work trying to keep this together and while I don't agree with his moves, she is the one who has caused the damage, she is the one who needs to make sure he heals.
> 
> She owes it to him to make sure that he feels safe, that she's now not going to go off and hook up with the mail lady, the cashier at Safeway Food Stores or the local school teacher. He has nothing that he has to do for her. It's all on her at this point.
> 
> She's the one who has screwed everything up, the onus is on her


You are absolutely right. But Family Man's wife head nor heart is in the right place at this very moment.

It takes time, patience and sometimes a few well placed threats.


----------



## badmemory

OP,

You call it a set back. Breaking no contact and lying about it might qualify for more than that - no matter the excuse. For a lot of BS's, that would be considered throwing the gift of attempted R, back in their face - and that would be it.

You drew a line, she crossed it, you erased it and drew another one. If she truly believed that if she got caught, her marriage would end; would she have broken contact in the first place? I can't answer that, but I can suggest that she had confidence that it wouldn't end - and she was right. Why did she have that confidence? Her experience of having no consequences.

I wish you well in your attempt at R. But I strongly recommend that you don't erase that line in the sand again.


----------



## wmn1

Nucking Futs said:


> You know jld, you come across as a misogynist. I don't think you really are one but for crying out loud, are you really going to sit there and tell us that women are always the helpless victims when a marriage comes unglued? Isn't it at all possible that a man who does everything right still can have his marriage fall apart because his wife doesn't uphold her end? Or do you believe that gracing a man with her mere presence is all that any woman has to do and the rest of the work in a marriage is on him?
> 
> Misogynist? Yep. You don't appear to believe that women are capable of contributing to the health of a marriage.


I don't understand why JLD feels it's 'on him'. It's not on him. He's the one who is screwed.

Now don't tell him that because FM is in panic mode. However, I agree with you that JLD has this one all wrong. 

It's FM's wife who has to make him feel safe, it's her who has to contribute to the health of the marriage at this point. 

I agree Nucking


----------



## jld

If your wife drives the car into the ditch, do you tell her to pull it out all by herself while you just stand there and watch? Or do you help her? 

If he wants this marriage to heal, he's going to have to make it safe for her to tell him the truth. Yes, there need to be clear rules. He has to determine which violations or how many mean divorce. But he has to become the person she depends on emotionally. 

Those emotional needs are what are driving her towards the other woman. I want her emotional dependence to be on him. That will happen when he becomes the safest person for her to go to when she feels tempted.

If you're thinking that she is going to pull the car out of the ditch all by herself and then come over and wipe his tears away . . . well I don't think it's going to happen like that. It's going to require a joint effort but quite honestly I think he's going to be the one leading getting the car out of the ditch. Jmo.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Bad analogy. If you accidentally drive the car into the ditch, it was not done intentionally or with malice. OP's wife made a conscious decision to hurt her husband. She lost respect for him a long time ago, threw herself into a dream job to the detriment to her family and acted out in a heinous way when she lost her dream job. If I was him, I'd throw the selfish wench away. Hell, she's damaged goods on several levels - some done to her as a child and some by her own doing. 

PASS...



jld said:


> If your wife drives the car into the ditch, do you tell her to pull it out all by herself while you just stand there and watch? Or do you help her?
> 
> If he wants this marriage to heal, he's going to have to make it safe for her to tell him the truth. Yes, there need to be clear rules. He has to determine which violations or how many mean divorce. But he has to become the person she depends on emotionally.
> 
> Those emotional needs are what are driving her towards the other woman. I want her emotional dependence to be on him. That will happen when he becomes the safest person for her to go to when she feels tempted.
> 
> If you're thinking that she is going to pull the car out of the ditch all by herself and then come over and wipe his tears away . . . well I don't think it's going to happen like that. It's going to require a joint effort but quite honestly I think he's going to be the one leading getting the car out of the ditch. Jmo.


----------



## jld

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Bad analogy. If you accidentally drive the car into the ditch, it was not done intentionally or with malice. OP's wife made a conscious decision to hurt her husband. She lost respect for him a long time ago, threw herself into a dream job to the detriment to her family and acted out in a heinous way when she lost her dream job. If I was him, I'd throw the selfish wench away. Hell, she's damaged goods on several levels - some done to her as a child and some by her own doing.
> 
> PASS...


He's still co-owner of the car, however it got into the ditch. Whatever happens to it is going to affect him.

Things should've changed when she lost respect for him. That should've been his wake up call.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> He's still co-owner of the car, however it got into the ditch. Whatever happens to it is going to affect him.
> 
> *Things should've changed when she lost respect for him. That should've been his wake up call.*


Therefore, _this is all his fault._ Jld, I've never seen you come right out and say it, but in every case you twist things around until you can blame the husband for the wifes infidelity.


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> Things should've changed when she lost respect for him. That should've been his wake up call.


JLD, 

This is wrong on so many levels.

FM's WW wasn't exactly sharing with FM what she was thinking, that he wasn't meeting her needs or threatening to walk if he didn't change. His WW simply went out in secret, had an affair and lied about it for months until FM found out about it. 

20 years ago, my W had no idea I had an ONS and cheated on her. The AP even called her several months later and my W totally dismissed it and never mentioned it to me...

Using your reasoning, its my W's fault I had the ONS because she never woke up to the fact that I was a selfish a$$hole. Sorry but I am not buying it. That's BS!

It was totally my fault, my selfishness, my burden to bear and my responsibility to fix.

My thinking is that FM is being more than patient with his WW. He will have to draw a line soon and stick with it.

I like the fact that his WW is coming clean about how it happened, but she is still slow playing him IMO and any outright lies, lies by omission and TT are gonna doom this R. 

And FM needs to be assertive that that $hit needs to end now. Because, in my estimation, she might have a couple more weeks to turn this thing around before FM throws in the towel and tells her to take a hike.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

jld said:


> He's still co-owner of the car, however it got into the ditch. Whatever happens to it is going to affect him.
> 
> Things should've changed when she lost respect for him. That should've been his wake up call.


What you describe then is not a husband wife relationship but a parent to child situation. The child fvcks up, dad has to come and clean up the mess.... OK, I can get that because aside from being selfish OP's wife was definitely childish - throwing a little temper tantrum by not being able to pursue her first love - a career as a social worker from the sounds of it. Her temper tantrum was in the metaphorical sense because she spiraled into depression and then pursued an extramarital affair all because she lost her dream job. Her family was not good enough for her. Her career completed her as a person. Her family was a nuisance. Now that she lost this dream job...of course she realizes "what she was throwing away"... LOL! Sure! When your options are completely taken away, plan B looks GREAT!

Communication? I don't think so. When she lost respect for her husband, why didn't she come out and tell him what was going on in her mind? That didn't happen. Seriously, you can't know what you don't know.

OP's wife is a self absorbed childish twat. Too bad the OP can't see her for who she really is - yet. Since it's still pretty raw for him, he's going to wake up one day and be highly, highly pissed. When that time comes...we'll see where all this will really go.


----------



## Tron

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP's wife is a self absorbed childish twat. Too bad the OP can't see her for who she really is - yet. Since it's still pretty raw for him, he's going to wake up one day and be highly, highly pissed. When that time comes...we'll see where all this will really go.


This! :iagree:

FM hasn't hit the anger stage yet. But it is surely coming.


----------



## jld

I'm not blaming him for her infidelity. Of course it was wrong for her to do that. 

I am just saying what I think has to happen for them to get back on a healthy path. And it is always helpful to look back to see where things went wrong. Remember, "those who don't study history are bound to repeat its mistakes."


----------



## anchorwatch

It would be even more helpful if she were to look back and see why she had so little impulse control to go about fixing her woes with the excitement of an affair. So little self-control, as to destroy her young family... Maybe that would make her husband feel safe enough to R


----------



## jld

That will come. One thing at a time.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> If your wife drives the car into the ditch, do you tell her to pull it out all by herself while you just stand there and watch? Or do you help her?


 Of course, I'd help my wife. I think most, if not all, would using your scenario. This analogy might work if it was an EA or a crush. She had an affair, lied and continues to lie.


She and he OW already pulled the car out of the ditch, hid it in the garage, lied about the accident, had it secretly repaired and the bill was found by her husband.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Of course, I'd help my wife. I think most, if not all, would using your scenario. This analogy might work if it was an EA or a crush. She had an affair, lied and continues to lie.
> 
> 
> She and he OW already pulled the car out of the ditch, hid it in the garage, lied about the accident, had it secretly repaired and the bill was found by her husband.


The car is the marriage, philly. It is not repaired, and certainly not secretly.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> The car is the marriage, philly. It is not repaired, and certainly not secretly.


LOL. 

She and the OW already pulled the car (marriage) out of the ditch, hid it (completely broken marriage) in the garage, lied about the accident (lies by omission), had it secretly repaired (pick your lie) and the bill (affair) was found by her husband.


----------



## jld

Sorry. Doesn't work for me.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> Sorry. Doesn't work for me.


Of course not, it was built off your analogy of blaming him for standing by watching the marriage fail. I blamed her for the crash, removing his onus of being able to "stand by."
Why did she crash her car into a ditch, when she could have sold it and bought a new car?


----------



## jld

I am focused on the job in front of us: getting the car out of the ditch.


----------



## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> I am focused on the job in front of us: getting the car out of the ditch.


Yet it seems you can't help but imply that she only drove the car into the ditch because he wasn't leading her away from the ditch.


----------



## pidge70

Nucking Futs said:


> Yet it seems you can't help but imply that she only drove the car into the ditch because he wasn't leading her away from the ditch.


If I fail at anything, it's nice to know that it is all Joe's fault.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Nucking Futs said:


> Yet it seems you can't help but imply that she only drove the car into the ditch because he wasn't leading her away from the ditch.


A big change in a spouse's behavior is worth asking about. He did not have to, but if it happens again, it might be a red flag. It's a way to protect himself.

We are learning from the past here, right?


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> If I fail at anything, it's nice to know that it is all Joe's fault.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can I blame Joe too? Sounds awfully convenient, lol.


----------



## Vulcan2013

bfree said:


> Can I blame Joe too? Sounds awfully convenient, lol.


Damn you, Joe!


----------



## pidge70

bfree said:


> Can I blame Joe too? Sounds awfully convenient, lol.


Nope, you're a man. Therefore you have to be strong. I am just a fragile flower. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

pidge70 said:


> Nope, you're a man. Therefore you have to be strong. I am just a fragile flower.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Damnit! I never get to have any fun.


----------



## convert

first job at hand is to make sure the affair is done.
R can not begin if the affair is ongoing it is hard enough when the wayward spouse is still in the fog which may last for a while. 
it seems in is the case it may be done but she has broken NC 3 separate times.
yes there are most likely issues in the marriage but the 800 pound elephant has to be taken care of first.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

jld said:


> I am focused on the job in front of us: getting the car out of the ditch.


Getting the car out of the ditch involves understanding why it ended up there in the first place. Being myopic will cause the car to roll back and be totaled, before ever getting out of the ditch. 

I'm done with the terrible analogies, last one to you.


----------



## jld

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Getting the car out of the ditch involves understanding why it ended up there in the first place.


I totally agree.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> If your wife drives the car into the ditch, do you tell her to pull it out all by herself while you just stand there and watch? Or do you help her?
> 
> 
> ***** She drove it there intentionally, then you got it out and she did it again intentionally and you got it out again and then she did it again. Maybe if she has to pull it out for once, then she'll see the damage she has done and won't do it again.
> 
> 
> 
> If he wants this marriage to heal, he's going to have to make it safe for her to tell him the truth. Yes, there need to be clear rules. He has to determine which violations or how many mean divorce. But he has to become the person she depends on emotionally.
> 
> 
> **** I think he's tried that with negative results
> 
> 
> 
> Those emotional needs are what are driving her towards the other woman. I want her emotional dependence to be on him. That will happen when he becomes the safest person for her to go to when she feels tempted.
> 
> 
> *****We all want the emotional dependence from her to be on him. However, after this long marriage, why should he have to force that ? It should be there automatically. It's like taking a punch in the face for someone you know while the person you know stands behind you and keeps taunting the other person. Then you take another shot and the person behind you keeps taunting. At some point, you are going to turn around and tell the taunter to STFU.
> 
> 
> If you're thinking that she is going to pull the car out of the ditch all by herself and then come over and wipe his tears away . . . well I don't think it's going to happen like that. It's going to require a joint effort but quite honestly I think he's going to be the one leading getting the car out of the ditch. Jmo.
> 
> 
> **** I get it but at some point (actually should have happened) she should have come forward and said "I am sorry for intentionally driving into that ditch and the damage I caused. I won't do it again". Hasn't happened


----------



## jld

You _can't_ force emotional dependence (trust). It is always and ever earned. And it must be maintained.

And if he cannot get that in place, I believe this marriage will fail. I just do not think his wife can fix this on her own.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> You _can't_ force emotional dependence (trust). It is always and ever earned. And it must be maintained.
> 
> And if he cannot get that in place, I believe this marriage will fail. I just do not think his wife can fix this on her own.



I get it but what did he do not to maintain it ? He's has done everything imaginable to keep the trust, far beyond what many here would do. 

personally, I feel it has already failed but FM is in the ring with Lennox Lewis and there's no payout and he's getting his a$$ kicked. 

I've said it before, good for him if that is what he wants but I think he is in BS 'fog' where he doesn't know what is good for him and he as a result can't fix himself. I'd like to say he's a standup guy for taking these blows but at some point, it becomes self destructive. And regarding the kids, staying together is not always the best thing. Not always the wrong thing either but ......

We haven't gotten an update yet in a while. I hope he's getting what he wants but the effort has to be on her.


----------



## jld

wmn1 said:


> I get it but what did he do not to maintain it ? He's has done everything imaginable to keep the trust, far beyond what many here would do.


He hasn't. He's admitted as much.

Doing more than what most men in CWI would do is not saying a lot, at least not to me.

Deep honesty from him will inspire trust in her. And again, her trust in him is the only thing that will start to pull the car out of the ditch.


----------



## pidge70

Really? He has to inspire trust in her, when she is the one that cheated?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

If he wants her emotional dependence, yes.

I want him to be the person that she runs to when she is scared. I want him to be the first person she goes to when she's feeling tempted. I want him to be her safety. 

That is not going to happen if she fears him.


----------



## pidge70

And you know she fears him how?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

If she's not coming to him with everything, immediately and humbly, in total honesty and trust.


----------



## pidge70

That doesn't mean she fears him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

How do you interpret it?


----------



## G.J.

So is the car back on the road or was it a write off ?


----------



## pidge70

G.J. said:


> So is the car back on the road or was it a write off ?


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> How do you interpret it?


She could just be a conniving wench.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

jld said:


> If she's not coming to him with everything, immediately and humbly, in total honesty and trust.


I think there is no question that she fears the consequences of being totally honest with FM. 

When he gets it from her, he needs to stay calm and supportive, especially if he wants more honesty...and even if he is raging inside. 

It can be tough to do though.


----------



## ButtPunch

I'm all for FM getting all vulnerable with his wife again, that's what counseling is for. I just think he better make sure she's still not straddling the fence. IMO, there maybe a giant hornets nest coming in the near future. She has broken his NC boundary THREE times already. 

To be vulnerable there needs to be trust.


----------



## Tron

I'm still not convinced that she hasn't cheated on him before.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I'm all for FM getting all vulnerable with his wife again, that's what counseling is for. I just think he better make sure she's still not straddling the fence. IMO, there maybe a giant hornets nest coming in the near future. She has broken his NC boundary THREE times already.
> 
> To be vulnerable there needs to be trust.


I want _her_ to be vulnerable with _him._ _That_ is the key here, I believe. 

I want her completely and voluntarily humbling herself before him, in utter trust of his compassion, understanding, and strength, knowing he can lead them both out of this.

And if he cannot, I would hope he would release her from the marriage.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> He hasn't. He's admitted as much.
> 
> Doing more than what most men in CWI would do is not saying a lot, at least not to me.
> 
> Deep honesty from him will inspire trust in her. And again, her trust in him is the only thing that will start to pull the car out of the ditch.


and again I throw the BS flag here.

he owes her nothing. She cheated. She is lucky he is still around, whether it be because he's weak, his deep love for her or what have you. 

Most men on CWI, most people I work with, most of my friends and myself would be gone. 

In the end, what I am saying is leave her damm a$$ in the ditch. You can't pull someone back from the edge of a cliff if they let go and don't extend an arm.

And yes he has done everything. the reason he claims he hasn't is because his self esteem is shot and he is in that BS 'fog' where he's blaming himself. He let her stay there, committed to R even before she showed any signs of wanting that, gave her space 'to figure herself out' (like that should be needed after all of this time and kept the kids in tune with her. What else do you want him to do ? Bring in Ringling Bros. and have her play with the elephants ?


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I want _her_ to be vulnerable with _him._ _That_ is the key here, I believe.
> 
> I want her completely and voluntarily humbling herself before him, in utter trust of his compassion, understanding, and strength, knowing he can lead them both out of this.
> 
> And if he cannot, I would hope he would release her from the marriage.


She cheated. She doesn't deserve that vulnerability from him. I don't think it's safe for him to be that open yet. Maybe down the road after several hundred MC visits. I understand that in order for the marriage to work they need to be a team but they aren't there yet.

She's trolling on match for affairs for Christ's sake. They got a LOT of issues to work out. His vulnerability is just one of them. IMO...first on the list is to make sure he's not getting hoodwinked.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> If she's not coming to him with everything, immediately and humbly, in total honesty and trust.


she's afraid because she's a cake eater. She wants the stability of home while having the opportunity to 'step out'. 

She's not going to him, not because of any trust or safety issues as you assert, it is because she knows he's hurting and she doesn't want to hurt him any more. She is trying to figure out things and perhaps a way out while causing the least amount of damage. 

Guess what ? There's no way to do that.

her not going to him is out of her own self greed, not because of trust issues. If he put a knife to her throat, I might agree with you. Didn't happen


----------



## wmn1

pidge70 said:


> She could just be a conniving wench.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


my thoughts :iagree:


----------



## jld

He knows he hasn't done everything. Most of us have not done everything possible in our marriages. We do more when we have to, and usually not before.

Again, *his* vulnerability is not the focus at this point. *Hers* is. 

We want *her* submitting herself to *him.* We want her 100% honest and open with him, so he has the info he needs to guide the relationship to safe waters.

If she cannot trust him, and he cannot lead, I totally agree they should divorce. They will each be better off with more suitable partners.


----------



## wmn1

Tron said:


> I think there is no question that she fears the consequences of being totally honest with FM.
> 
> When he gets it from her, he needs to stay calm and supportive, especially if he wants more honesty...and even if he is raging inside.
> 
> It can be tough to do though.


I don't disagree Tron but again, is that as a result of how he has conducted himself ? or is that as a result of her own greed and indecision ? 

My contention is that her not approaching him is on her and her own insecurities and she needs to make a decision and step to the plate and stop stringing this guy along. he's not the one who cheated. And I say this generally, not based on something you said or suggested


----------



## jld

But he has influence over her. He can choose to use it. He does not have to be passive.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> He knows he hasn't done everything. Most of us have not done everything possible in our marriages. We do more when we have to, and usually not before.
> 
> Again, *his* vulnerability is not the focus at this point. *Hers* is.
> 
> We want *her* submitting herself to *him.* We want her 100% honest and open with him, so he has the info he needs to guide the relationship to safe waters.
> 
> If she cannot trust him, and he cannot lead, I totally agree they should divorce. They will each be better off with more suitable partners.



I agree but for different reasons. 

The concept of her not trusting him is on her, not him. No, noone does everything 100% for their marriage but there is give and take. We all know that the other does the best they can as do we. In this case, an affair was not part of the deal. Neither should her holding her family hostage to her own indecision, insecurities and greed. 

You can lead a horse to water but ...

I agree with your last statement in that he seems to lack the vision or character to lead but only based on his own indecisiveness. It may be toast, if it is, they should move on


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> But he has influence over her. He can choose to use it. He does not have to be passive.





:iagree:

1000%


----------



## ButtPunch

JLD

I see your point but view it as a long term goal. Something that takes time. She has disconnected herself from him and fixing that will take time. In the meantime, OP should be vigilant. 

I know this is crazy but she may also be a bad wife who doesn't give one rat's a$$ about the OP and is planning on blindsiding him with a divorce, a restraining order, and temporary custody. She just needs a little time to get her ducks in a row. 

I am not saying this is the case but it could be. I've seen worse here on TAM. Vulnerable right now could get him hurt.


----------



## jld

In a male-dominated marriage, which is the model I'm working out of, the man earns and maintains the woman's trust. If she is afraid to come to him, he makes that his business. He knows the marriage is doomed if she does not trust him.

Flip that for female-dominated marriages.


----------



## jld

BP. I want _her_ to be vulnerable. Not _him._


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> BP. I want _her_ to be vulnerable. Not _him._


She's not going to be, at least not any time in the near future.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> She's not going to be, at least not any time in the near future.


He can change that.


----------



## ButtPunch

FYI...OP is clearly in a female dominant relationship.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> He can change that.


Maybe.....and not overnight.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

jld said:


> BP. I want _her_ to be vulnerable. Not _him._


OP mentioned that his wife is CSA survivor - assuming the abuse came from male authority figures. Your traditional model won't work, because she will probably never want to fully submit herself to him due to childhood trauma. Their relationship will have to be on a more equitable level where both have to vulnerable to each other but both also have some authoritative input. They need to work as a team more so than any normal marriage. FM's wife has been off script for years. That's the real issue here.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> FYI...OP is clearly in a female dominant relationship.


By default, perhaps. He can change that. I bet she would be grateful.


----------



## jld

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP mentioned that his wife is CSA survivor - assuming the abuse came from male authority figures. Your traditional model won't work, because she will probably never want to fully submit herself to him due to childhood trauma. Their relationship will have to be on a more equitable level where both have to vulnerable to each other but both also have some authoritative input. They need to work as a team more so than any normal marriage. FM's wife has been off script for years. That's the real issue here.



Those male authority figures abused their power. True authority serves the best interests of everyone involved.

I do believe he can earn her trust. I think it would be healing and empowering for both of them.


----------



## naiveonedave

jld said:


> Those male authority figures abused their power. True authority serves the best interests of everyone involved.
> 
> I do believe he can earn her trust. I think it would be healing and empowering for both of them.


I really doubt that this is in the OPs best interest. It may be the best way to save the train wreck of the infidelity, but he won't come out of it with sanity or self respect.


----------



## jld

naiveonedave said:


> I really doubt that this is in the OPs best interest. It may be the best way to save the train wreck of the infidelity, but he won't come out of it with sanity or self respect.


I think he'll come out of it with a great deal of self-respect. I think he'll be tapping into power that he probably never realized he had.

But he certainly is not forced to do it.


----------



## cdbaker

I'd like to invite FamilyMan15, the OP to return to the thread, in case he's been put off by all the bickering, accusations, guilt trips, and blame assigning. I hope he'll forgive this and see that most of us do just want to help.


----------



## jld

I think he's just busy.


----------



## Divinely Favored

wmn1 said:


> FamilyMan15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So in general, everything's been pretty good. She's definitely going through the mourning period of detaching from the OW. But emotionally, she's been opening up like she wasn't before her decision.
> 
> Setbacks:
> 1. I originally pictured this whole thing being a deal where she was vulnerable, and an aggressive lesbian took advantage (she originally told me that they met at the gym). When she came back Saturday, we had a "truth" conversation and some additional facts came out. Apparently she went on Match.com looking for "women seeking women" and initiated contact with the OW. When I probed this issue, she responded "honestly I don't know what I was looking for" and I got angry and left (I didn't believe it).
> This frames the whole thing differently. Ultimately, reconciliation is still my goal, but looking to initiate an affair makes it much harder to to get past. I think I'll save this to dig into in MC as it's really more of a past thing and we need to focus now on rebuilding. It does bring the sexual identity thing back into the mix though. Maybe she was unhappy and wondering if it was because she was a lesbian and went to explore it and see. Obviously, still not ok, but I need to understand the motivation to prevent it in the future. Maybe she truly is bisexual. She has IC Thursday, so hopefully they'll explore this more. We'll definitely talk about it in MC. I also wonder where the motivation to explore this came from (a bisexual friend?) - it just seems so out of character. She said it's been on her mind for a year. I wonder what happened a year ago?
> 
> 2. Last night she was visibly upset. I asked her what was wring and she said nothing. I asked her if she was in contact with the OW and she said no. I've been logging her texts, so I went and checked and saw a text from an upset OW talking about a call and that "it shouldn't end like this". When confronted with the facts, she confessed that the OW had reached out for more explanation and she called her back to ask her to stop calling and texting (and the texts after from the OW confirm it). She didn't want to tell me because it would upset me. I explained that the lie was MUCH MUCH worse and after a long fight asked her to sleep in the guest room. In the morning, I decided rather than to kick her out, that I would give her the smallest bit of slack given the situation and made it clear that, even if she thought it would hurt, I needed to be told of any contact and we could figure out a response together. Any further dishonesty would mean saying goodbye for good. She understood and agreed.
> 
> So, while there were some set backs, I think we are on a decent path. Rebuilding honesty is going to be an uphill battle. and frankly, I think she's been lying for so long about everything, it's going to be a tough habit to break. But, it's a must.
> 
> 
> 
> at least the 'contact' was her ending it which is a good thing
Click to expand...


Unless the free night was used by them to set up this scenario to make OP believe it had ended. ? How long were the calls before the text was sent to your wife.


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> In a male-dominated marriage, which is the model I'm working out of, the man earns and maintains the woman's trust. If she is afraid to come to him, he makes that his business. He knows the marriage is doomed if she does not trust him.
> 
> Flip that for female-dominated marriages.


and what if it's 50/50 ?????


----------



## jld

wmn1 said:


> and what if it's 50/50 ?????


My husband thinks 50/50 is female-dominated.


----------



## wmn1

Divinely Favored said:


> Unless the free night was used by them to set up this scenario to make OP believe it had ended. ? How long were the calls before the text was sent to your wife.


true good point. One never knows


----------



## wmn1

jld said:


> My husband thinks 50/50 is female-dominated.



my marriage is 60/40, me. No domination. She just defers to me more often, sometimes it's troubling. Trust is freely given but remorse is shown immediately if one screwed up. No infidelities to date because of our level of respect for each other and our ability to put the other in the one's shoes.

Most of the guys I know are in female dominated relationships. 
think we all are trying to be on FM's side but we all see a different approach to the problem sometimes dramatically different. Her cheating was out of line. I'd like to see some remorse from her.

While I disagree completely with Baker's point in his last post, I do feel he's right in that FM left the building. I disagree it's from rhetoric here. He stuck in this thread for weeks and got both praised and burned and kept posting. I hope it's working out for him


----------



## convert

jld said:


> My husband thinks 50/50 is female-dominated.


your husband is right, but don't tell him that


----------



## G.J.

jld said:


> My husband thinks 50/50 is female-dominated.


Want to wife swop for a couple of weeks and see how he would change his view


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> My husband thinks 50/50 is female-dominated.


Just because* Dug* believes that, doesn't make it a given.


----------



## jld

pidge70 said:


> Just because* Dug* believes that, doesn't make it a given.


Maybe in my world it does.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> Maybe in my world it does.


I believe you two are about the only ones that live in your world. My world is vastly different. All about equality and all that jazz. You know the word equality? It's something women have been struggling to achieve for ages.


----------



## jld

pidge70 said:


> I believe you two are about the only ones that live in your world. My world is vastly different. All about equality and all that jazz. You know the word equality? It's something women have been struggling to achieve for ages.


. My world is pretty happy. Pretty peaceful.


----------



## pidge70

jld said:


> . My world is pretty happy. Pretty peaceful.


----------



## jld




----------



## anchorwatch

JLD, 

Your reality may not be universal. Nor should one reality be the only way forward. Just saying.


----------



## jld




----------



## farsidejunky

It isn't universal to all relationships.

However, there is room for it at the table of ideas without insults.

Pidge, I would think you of all people would fundamentally celebrate that idea.


----------



## wmn1

farsidejunky said:


> It isn't universal to all relationships.
> 
> However, there is room for it at the table of ideas without insults.
> 
> Pidge, I would think you of all people would fundamentally celebrate that idea.


where was the insult ? I agree with Pidge in what she represented here


----------



## pidge70

farsidejunky said:


> It isn't universal to all relationships.
> 
> However, there is room for it at the table of ideas without insults.
> 
> Pidge, I would think you of all people would fundamentally celebrate that idea.


Wth are you talking about?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Coldie

wmn1 said:


> you don't need threesomes. You just need a wife who is willing to abide by her marital vows and be loyal to you, the way it should have been from the start.
> 
> threesomes are great in the mind of a single guy who is trying to get as much as he can. That stuff is supposed to be long past before marriage


I agree with this. They really aren't that special and hopefully we have them out of our system.


----------



## jld

I sure hope so, too.


----------



## cdbaker

wmn1 said:


> While I disagree completely with Baker's point in his last post, I do feel he's right in that FM left the building. I disagree it's from rhetoric here. He stuck in this thread for weeks and got both praised and burned and kept posting. I hope it's working out for him


I wasn't trying to blame anyone in particular. I just meant that it seemed like the vast majority of the posts from the past few days have been somewhat off topic and not geared towards the OP, but towards little arguments and sniping at other commentors, many of them having a negative tone and/or unhelpful.

That, and from experience I know how this goes, it can be depressing when you are posting about your experience, asking for help/comments for achieving your goal, and all you ever receive is comments telling you that your goal is garbage and you're dumb for having it. Obviously sometimes people need to be told things they don't want to here, it's in their best interest, but I think we can all do a better job of doing so in a caring way. I know I myself have walked away from the forum for long stretches of time just because I was feeling beaten down here on TAM, not offered caring support. I personally will often be willing to give it to someone straight even if it's not what they want to hear, but then also try to provide thoughts about how best to achieve their goal as they requested, prefacing it with a statement that I might not actually agree that it's the best route to take. Like, "Dude I really think you aught to give up on trying to save her and file for D, but if you are hellbent on trying to rescue her, then my thought is that you aught consider...."

Just my two cents. Again I'm not speaking negatively of any one person or post on this thread. This is a forum-wide issue in my view.


----------



## wmn1

Coldie said:


> I agree with this. They really aren't that special and hopefully we have them out of our system.


It's funny, Coldie, I have a close friend whose wife wanted that lifestyle and she swore she would never want him to reciprocate with a MWM. He went with it but never felt right about it and then all of a sudden, she wanted to go back on her word and when he refused, she left him (something else must have been going on if you know what I mean).

My comment wasn't a shot at you. Please don't consider it to be one. Our situations are different. My wife would slice my throat even if I broached the subject with her (not that I would) I agree with you that hopefully people get the concept out of their systems in general. In so many cases, it's unhealthy and could cause problems down the road IMO

Thanks for the response


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> I don't have the time for a longer post but I do want to quickly mention a couple of things.
> 
> I warned you that the OW would try to initiate contact. And it happened. I also told you it would be very difficult for your wife to completely break contact cold turkey. Good for you in not being draconian and explaining to her what the hard boundaries are and why they are needed. I believe I also said that the correct way for your wife to handle that contact was to blow the OW off. Good for her because it looks like that is exactly what she did. While you can be a little upset that she didn't inform you of the contact I do hope you hugged her and thanked her for how she handled the OW's messages. Many former waywards would try to let their affair partners down easy. Sounds like your wife handled it about as well as she could considering how raw this all is to her.
> 
> Second point. While it seems bad that your wife sought out the affair I'm going to tell you a little secret that most here on TAM won't share. If she was feeling very "unfulfilled" ie. confused, hurt, resentful, fearful (like in a MLC) etc. it would not be unusual for someone to do the exact thing that your wife did. I know for a fact that it happens much much more than is known. It is just not admitted to. The fact that she did admit it to me shows that she is indeed all in. She is trusting you with all her dirty secrets. She's completely opening up to you. Or at least she's in the beginning stages of doing that. Again, I don't see this as a negative. I see it as she is laying her soul bare for you to see. She is giving you the missing puzzle pieces so you can see everything that she sees. Most BS's don't get this from their WS's. It's a good sign.
> 
> I think if you treat this reconciliation as you and her are a team working toward a common goal you have a good chance. Give her credit when she does do things the way they should be done. Thank her when she does things that make you feel better and help heal the damage she's wrought. And admonish her when she screws up...and she will. As long as her missteps are not repeated over and over you'll be building toward the eventual destination. Remember, as much pain as you are in she is feeling tremendous guilt and confusion as well. Helping her to help you is what you're striving for.


Thanks. Much of this seems to be ringing true. The initiating a same sex relationship is troubling to me. It seems a big first step down that road. I can't help but wonder if there was something else that happened before this to get her thoughts headed that direction. Hopefully she'll feel comfortable in discussing that at some point.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> Are you making it easy for her to be honest with you?


I am trying, but she seems very guarded. Our relationship was pretty damaged even before the affair, so I can't assume it's going to get magically better after. I'm unrelentless in trying to make her feel comfortable and safe.


----------



## FamilyMan15

LongWalk said:


> Of course it is a good thing that she came clean about her foray into the women looking for women personals. Only the truth can be the basis for R.
> 
> You need to ask your wife how much she has been fantasizing about women. Did she, does she need to think about women when the two of you are having sex? Can you stand that? Maybe the two of you can watch lesbian porn while having sex?
> 
> R is a route with risk but to succeed your wife is going to have open herself up more.


She's not comfortable enough yet to discuss the beginnings of all this. Either she doesn't want to tell me yet or it's not clear to her. She's started IC and hopefully she'll be able to work thought it and fill me in at some point. It's an issue that is constantly in my brain, but I just can't press the issue until she's ready.

This situation as pretty much ruined lesbian porn for me, so thats off the table.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> Small setbacks are normal. Make her feel that she can be honest with you with anything. But also make her realize there are consequences for her bad decisions.


What are some consequences besides telling her to leave?


----------



## FamilyMan15

wmn1 said:


> at least the 'contact' was her ending it which is a good thing


That was the only reason it was not a deal breaker for me.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Tron said:


> I think there is no question that she fears the consequences of being totally honest with FM.
> 
> When he gets it from her, he needs to stay calm and supportive, especially if he wants more honesty...and even if he is raging inside.
> 
> It can be tough to do though.


I hope we get to that point. I can handle my end. I just need the full truth.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Tron said:


> I'm still not convinced that she hasn't cheated on him before.


Neither am I frankly. Going to match.com to find a woman seems a big leap from monogomus hetrosexual. Seems like there was something in between.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP mentioned that his wife is CSA survivor - assuming the abuse came from male authority figures. Your traditional model won't work, because she will probably never want to fully submit herself to him due to childhood trauma. Their relationship will have to be on a more equitable level where both have to vulnerable to each other but both also have some authoritative input. They need to work as a team more so than any normal marriage. FM's wife has been off script for years. That's the real issue here.


I think this is correct and really describes our relationship for the first 15 years of marriage.


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> What are some consequences besides telling her to leave?


don't dismiss this as a possibility if she fails you again. Good luck and I hope things work out for you


----------



## FamilyMan15

Sorry I've been gone for a while. It's been a long week.

So, to get you up to date, the wife came back last Saturday, said she decided that she wanted me and the family and while I was skeptical and obviously still devastated, I was encouraged that reconciliation was possible. We had several long talks that day and she seemed genuine. She officially ended it with the OW and other than a contact initiated by the OW the day after, I believe there hasn't been any additional contact (and this is as verified as possible). 

So the good news is that she is here, I am the 2.0 version of myself (really the old version), and we are getting along well as can be expected given the circumstances. She saw her IC this Thursday and plans to go back next week.

The bad news is that she is much more distant that I expected. I had naively hoped she would come back and try to make things right. Not really the case. She said her head has picked us/me, but her heart isn't there yet. I realize that our relationship was very strained before the relationship, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. We are hugging, light kissing, holding hands, and holding eachother at night some, but it seems forced and she's pretty cold and moody. I just I REALLY wish she was putting in more effort. I feel like I am the one who had the affair since I'm putting in all the effort and I'm not sure how long I can sustain it. I'm hurting too and I was the "victim".

I guess she's still in the fog and it will take time for her to get over the OW (vs. if she ended the affair a while ago and I just found out). I guess it's pretty fresh. There still is a great deal of sexual confusion. "I was ok with that lesbian relationship. What does that make me?" I think the OW pushed the "you need to figure out what you really are in order to be happy." She's committed to the IC, but it seems like our reconciliation can't really start until she's 100% committed to this being what she wants. and she's not really there yet. I believe she wants to be, but isn't. So our active rebuilding is pretty much on hold (although daily positive deposits gotta be good for something). She doesn't like to talk about the sexual identity stuff much. I'm not sure she has it wall sorted out yet. She also seems to be dealing with a lot of guilt and self-sabotage (lots of drinking etc). While I think I can forgive her, I don't think she can.

I'm not helping much either. My brain wants to just sort this all out and I've been wanting to "talk about us" a lot. Probably too much. Seems justified, but I guess I really need to focus on making her feel safe and trusting me again (and likewise) and being constantly questioned is uncomfortable. I've been looking at some/most of the 180 principles and I really need to work on coming across as less desperate. That's just not attractive. That's my goal for next week. I don't want to give her the cold shoulder and I won't, but I need to start preparing myself in case this goes south and I can't be the only one working here.

At least we are headed the right direction I just, we'll just have to see how the next couple weeks plays out. Meanwhile, I'm focusing on me. Getting myself healthy and fit, being a better dad, and trying a new hobby. Regardless of what happens, I need to get myself right physically and mentally.

Does this seem normal given the circumstances? Obviously, I need to be vigilant about the OW, but any other advice? How long will she be in this fog?


----------



## FamilyMan15

wmn1 said:


> don't dismiss this as a possibility if she fails you again. Good luck and I hope things work out for you


I haven't. When she walked in Saturday to say she picked us, she surprised me (I didn't expect her at all that soon). I had a printed out "divorce checklist" that I had prepared just in case on my desk and she was shocked. I told her that I had to be prepared in case this didn't go well. I think that at least communicated my resolve.


----------



## jld

You said you had a few friends you have confided in. Are you continuing to get support from them? Surely that is important.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> You said you had a few friends you have confided in. Are you continuing to get support from them? Surely that is important.


Yes, but guys aren't too good at that kind of stuff. They listen. Give me some good advice, but when it comes to emotions, that's not really their bag. My insurance only allows my family to see one counselor at a time (and the wife is in IC now), but I think I'm going to see if there are other counseling options for me early next week. Maybe through a church or something. I'm really struggling keeping my emotions together. This week as been pretty tough in that department. 

My wife says she's having a tough time, but she has no idea. Until you have been betrayed like this, you have no idea what it feels like. It never leaves your thoughts. Then there are the triggers. I pulled out a christmas gift from her this weekend and it dawned on me that she probably gave the OW a gift as well. Which started me down a whole new spiral. On top of that, no matter what I do, my wife might just show up and say she's a lesbian in a day or a month or a year. and the one person I can really turn to for emotional help is the one causing the hurt. It's just constant pain. Really sucks. I'm constantly flip flopping between intense sadness and intense anger all the while keeping the supportive husband face on. Not sure how long I can keep this up.


----------



## jld

I am so sorry, FM. For sure you need support.

It's good that you are considering counseling for yourself. In the meantime, try to journal, if nothing else. You need to be able to release those emotions.

Are you thinking maybe you should tell family? That would bring some support.

And it cannot help her to be turning to alcohol. She must be struggling, too.

I am just so sorry.


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> I am so sorry, FM. For sure you need support.
> 
> It's good that you are considering counseling for yourself. In the meantime, try to journal, if nothing else. You need to be able to release those emotions.
> 
> Are you thinking maybe you should tell family? That would bring some support.
> 
> And it cannot help her to be turning to alcohol. She must be struggling, too.
> 
> I am just so sorry.


Thanks. Honestly, just writing here has been helping. I does help just to get the emotions out. and I'm not really a journalling person. But maybe I'll start. 

I know she is struggling too. We both are. But she's focused on her struggles. I'm focused on both of ours.

My family could never forgive her, so I have to wait on that for now. I do have several friends that are helping, but there's just not much they can do. I will survive.

Thanks for your good wishes. It does help.


----------



## bfree

FM, it is extremely normal for her to be distracted and confused. Frankly I'd be surprised if she weren't somewhat distant. Some call it the fog, some use other terminology. Understand that for a long time she was getting needs fulfilled by the OW. She was getting shots of dopamine (the love chemical) in her brain every time they were together. Now she's essentially going through withdrawal. It may take several months for it to fully wear off but if she maintains no contact it will wear off. Many here on TAM will say she's not remorseful unless she is groveling on her knees blowing snot bubbles. Some will say she's not doing the heavy lifting if she isn't actively looking for ways to help you heal. What you might not hear is that in many cases this won't happen right away. Oftentimes if the disloyal spouse is confused that epiphany won't occur until later. In your case it is complicated further by your wife's past and her sexual identity crisis. In reality it all comes down to you and how long you're willing to stick it out. There is another poster named Wazza who was probably more patient than most betrayed spouses and in the end it paid off. Their marriage is still intact and they're very happy. Maybe you can PM him to see what he might suggest. He's a good guy and offers a lot of good advice. There is no way to know if things are going to work out for you as far as your marriage is concerned. But nothing you have written so far is surprising and nothing has convinced me that it won't happen. Keep posting and reading. Maybe some other veterans here will stop by and give their input.


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> FM, it is extremely normal for her to be distracted and confused. Frankly I'd be surprised if she weren't somewhat distant. Some call it the fog, some use other terminology. Understand that for a long time she was getting needs fulfilled by the OW. She was getting shots of dopamine (the love chemical) in her brain every time they were together. Now she's essentially going through withdrawal. It may take several months for it to fully wear off but if she maintains no contact it will wear off. Many here on TAM will say she's not remorseful unless she is groveling on her knees blowing snot bubbles. Some will say she's not doing the heavy lifting if she isn't actively looking for ways to help you heal. What you might not hear is that in many cases this won't happen right away. Oftentimes if the disloyal spouse is confused that epiphany won't occur until later. In your case it is complicated further by your wife's past and her sexual identity crisis. In reality it all comes down to you and how long you're willing to stick it out. There is another poster named Wazza who was probably more patient than most betrayed spouses and in the end it paid off. Their marriage is still intact and they're very happy. Maybe you can PM him to see what he might suggest. He's a good guy and offers a lot of good advice. There is no way to know if things are going to work out for you as far as your marriage is concerned. But nothing you have written so far is surprising and nothing has convinced me that it won't happen. Keep posting and reading. Maybe some other veterans here will stop by and give their input.


Thanks for the support. I'm committed to our marriage and will do everything I can. I just hope I can make it through. It's good to hear that this isn't unusual. That does help.


----------



## Chaparral

I think it depends on the counselor and his philosophy. If they're a follow your impulses type I think she will leave.

It doesn't sound like she's trying to get over the ow. She's not even faking it till she makes it.

It just looks too much like too many other threads where the ww was playing her husband. Road scholar comes to mind.


----------



## BobSimmons

FamilyMan15 said:


> Sorry I've been gone for a while. It's been a long week.
> 
> So, to get you up to date, the wife came back last Saturday, said she decided that she wanted me and the family and while I was skeptical and obviously still devastated, I was encouraged that reconciliation was possible. We had several long talks that day and she seemed genuine. She officially ended it with the OW and other than a contact initiated by the OW the day after, I believe there hasn't been any additional contact (and this is as verified as possible).
> 
> So the good news is that she is here, I am the 2.0 version of myself (really the old version), and we are getting along well as can be expected given the circumstances. She saw her IC this Thursday and plans to go back next week.
> 
> The bad news is that she is much more distant that I expected. I had naively hoped she would come back and try to make things right. Not really the case. She said her head has picked us/me, but her heart isn't there yet. I realize that our relationship was very strained before the relationship, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. We are hugging, light kissing, holding hands, and holding eachother at night some, but it seems forced and she's pretty cold and moody. I just I REALLY wish she was putting in more effort. I feel like I am the one who had the affair since I'm putting in all the effort and I'm not sure how long I can sustain it. I'm hurting too and I was the "victim".
> 
> I guess she's still in the fog and it will take time for her to get over the OW (vs. if she ended the affair a while ago and I just found out). I guess it's pretty fresh. There still is a great deal of sexual confusion. "I was ok with that lesbian relationship. What does that make me?" I think the OW pushed the "you need to figure out what you really are in order to be happy." She's committed to the IC, but it seems like our reconciliation can't really start until she's 100% committed to this being what she wants. and she's not really there yet. I believe she wants to be, but isn't. So our active rebuilding is pretty much on hold (although daily positive deposits gotta be good for something). She doesn't like to talk about the sexual identity stuff much. I'm not sure she has it wall sorted out yet. She also seems to be dealing with a lot of guilt and self-sabotage (lots of drinking etc). While I think I can forgive her, I don't think she can.
> 
> I'm not helping much either. My brain wants to just sort this all out and I've been wanting to "talk about us" a lot. Probably too much. Seems justified, but I guess I really need to focus on making her feel safe and trusting me again (and likewise) and being constantly questioned is uncomfortable. I've been looking at some/most of the 180 principles and I really need to work on coming across as less desperate. That's just not attractive. That's my goal for next week. I don't want to give her the cold shoulder and I won't, but I need to start preparing myself in case this goes south and I can't be the only one working here.
> 
> *At least we are headed the right direction* I just, we'll just have to see how the next couple weeks plays out. Meanwhile, I'm focusing on me. Getting myself healthy and fit, being a better dad, and trying a new hobby. Regardless of what happens, I need to get myself right physically and mentally.
> 
> Does this seem normal given the circumstances? Obviously, I need to be vigilant about the OW, but any other advice? How long will she be in this fog?


I don't know what direction that is?

You want R with an unremorseful wife, she's not faking it so this is what you have to live with.

Get used to it.


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> I haven't. When she walked in Saturday to say she picked us, she surprised me (I didn't expect her at all that soon). I had a printed out "divorce checklist" that I had prepared just in case on my desk and she was shocked. I told her that I had to be prepared in case this didn't go well. I think that at least communicated my resolve.


Good. her knowing you are serious will hopefully snap her out of her 'fog'. Maybe. if not, you will know sooner at least


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> Thanks for the support. I'm committed to our marriage and will do everything I can. I just hope I can make it through. It's good to hear that this isn't unusual. That does help.



1) What steps are you taking to ensure no contact with the other woman ? or at least to monitor it ?
2) Have you considered the possibility (not saying it's so) that she came back for security reasons (financial and normal living) just to buy time ?
3) How long are you willing to let her be in this 'fog' ?
4) If she came back for you and your family, what signs do you want to see from her to show her sincerity ?


----------



## Chaparral

show/play this for her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvHK8-g7qRw 

At this point you just have to live your life in an upbeat happy manner. Try to be there for her and date and romance her. If you mope and sulk around she is going to pick the ow for sure. At some point she is going to have to make amends but first you have to sell her on keeping you and her family.

The bad dynamic you had before the affair has to be forgotten and go back to the way the two of you used to be when you were happy. There is no point in pointing fingers and affixing blame, the point is to fix the marriage and make it be something you both want.

Forget trying to get her to talk at this point. Throw the dice and see what comes out of her counseling. This is going to take time and there are no guarantees. You cant make sure it will work out but your actions can definitely drive her away too. That doesn't mean she gets a get out of jail free card.


----------



## bryanp

Sorry but it sounds like she picked an easier lifestyle with you that she had become accustomed to with you. She is not even trying.

I strongly suggest that the both of you get tested for STD's.

If you do not respect yourself then who will?


----------



## Q tip

Take a vacation together. Just the two of you. Change the dynamic.

She's gonna be in mourning for the loss of her OW. She's coming off a powerful drug cold-turkey. She's vulnerable. You need to replace that energy.

She's decided on Plan B+

AND YES to Bryanp. You both go get an STD test together. It's for the mental shock and you taking over how it's gonna be.


----------



## happyman64

All good advice FM.

Let me add a little more.

Affairs take a while to get over. They just do.

That is why I say to pick a date in your head 6 months or a year from now for you to judge if she has her heart totally in R.

Make a decision then. Give her the time she needs to sort those issues.

But you also deserve to live, be happy and make plans.

You do just that. Do what makes you happy.

Stay busy. Be a great Dad. Be the man!

A good man.

HM


----------



## wmn1

Q tip said:


> Take a vacation together. Just the two of you. Change the dynamic.
> 
> She's gonna be in mourning for the loss of her OW. She's coming off a powerful drug cold-turkey. She's vulnerable. You need to replace that energy.
> 
> She's decided on Plan B+
> 
> AND YES to Bryanp. You both go get an STD test together. It's for the mental shock and you taking over how it's gonna be.


:iagree:


----------



## PreRaphaelite

wmn1 said:


> 1) What steps are you taking to ensure no contact with the other woman ? or at least to monitor it ?
> 2) Have you considered the possibility (not saying it's so) that she came back for security reasons (financial and normal living) just to buy time ?
> 3) How long are you willing to let her be in this 'fog' ?
> 4) If she came back for you and your family, what signs do you want to see from her to show her sincerity ?


#2 is something I suspect may be part of her decision as well. She wants to be with the OW. That's clear. But she doesn't want to lose everything she had just right now.

She says she's committed to your marriage. I say she's still pretty much on the fence and buying time while she thinks over whether or not there is some chance for her and her lover to be together, or whether she's better off staying with you even though she doesn't love you like she loves her.


----------



## Q tip

PreRaphaelite said:


> #2 is something I suspect may be part of her decision as well. She wants to be with the OW. That's clear. But she doesn't want to lose everything she had just right now.
> 
> She says she's committed to your marriage. I say she's still pretty much on the fence and buying time while she thinks over whether or not there is some chance for her and her lover to be together, or whether she's better off staying with you even though she doesn't love you like she loves her.


Kind of a cake eater then or maybe cupcakes until a better day?


----------



## bfree

Q tip said:


> Take a vacation together. Just the two of you. Change the dynamic.
> 
> She's gonna be in mourning for the loss of her OW. She's coming off a powerful drug cold-turkey. She's vulnerable. You need to replace that energy.
> 
> She's decided on Plan B+
> 
> AND YES to Bryanp. You both go get an STD test together. It's for the mental shock and you taking over how it's gonna be.


A vacation together sounds like a great idea.


----------



## wmn1

PreRaphaelite said:


> #2 is something I suspect may be part of her decision as well. She wants to be with the OW. That's clear. But she doesn't want to lose everything she had just right now.
> 
> She says she's committed to your marriage. I say she's still pretty much on the fence and buying time while she thinks over whether or not there is some chance for her and her lover to be together, or whether she's better off staying with you even though she doesn't love you like she loves her.


I agree


----------



## sidney2718

PreRaphaelite said:


> #2 is something I suspect may be part of her decision as well. She wants to be with the OW. That's clear. But she doesn't want to lose everything she had just right now.
> 
> She says she's committed to your marriage. I say she's still pretty much on the fence and buying time while she thinks over whether or not there is some chance for her and her lover to be together, or whether she's better off staying with you even though she doesn't love you like she loves her.


I think that sometimes we read too much about a person's feelings and motivation from a description given by their spouse. It is very hard for us to know what the OP's wife is thinking.

For instance, the question of her sexual orientation might be seriously bothering her. She may feel that if she's enjoyed being with a woman, that makes her a lesbian and there is nothing she can do about it, even though she might want to.

Or she might feel that she's a sexual failure with the ambiguity being too much for her. She might feel useless, inadequate, and incapable of heterosexual passion.

Or she might be simply confused.

So I agree that she needs time. But it seems to me that the OP can help by being romantic, laying on some date nights, and showing appreciation that she's around. That's not what we would normally recommend for a BH to do for a WS, but this case is different. She's made a choice and needs to have her feelings validated.


----------



## sidney2718

Q tip said:


> Kind of a cake eater then or maybe cupcakes until a better day?


I think it is fairly easy to see that this is NOT the ordinary case of a BH and a WW. There are questions of sexual identity here as well. The WW has made a choice. Reconciliation here is very complex. I'd not talk in terms of "cupcakes" or the like.


----------



## the guy

PreRaphaelite said:


> I suspect may be part of her decision as well.


Screw her and her decisions......

She just stabbed her old man in the back and now wants to keep the family unit together (good for ww) and folks think she has a say.........

OP's old lady should be happy this crap isn't a deal breaker and she isn't couch surfing.

OP's ol lady deserves a hard spanking and take it with a smile as she has gotten a second chance in keeping her family together.


----------



## Q tip

Expose far and wide. Family and friends...


----------



## Q tip

sidney2718 said:


> I think it is fairly easy to see that this is NOT the ordinary case of a BH and a WW. There are questions of sexual identity here as well. The WW has made a choice. Reconciliation here is very complex. I'd not talk in terms of "cupcakes" or the like.


Cheatin is cheatin. No two ways about it. Complexities? Just break the complexities down more into bite size pieces. You'll get cake.


----------



## VFW

First I am sorry that you are in this situation. I have not been exactly in your position, but cheating is cheating. I almost get the feeling that she uses it an excuse not to bond with you, as she justifies in her mind the bisexuality. Just remember that reconciliation is not her decision exclusively and that you can pull the plug on this as well. Is there a plan for reconciliation or are you just living together and hoping that things will get better?


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## wmn1

sidney2718 said:


> I think it is fairly easy to see that this is NOT the ordinary case of a BH and a WW. There are questions of sexual identity here as well. The WW has made a choice. Reconciliation here is very complex. I'd not talk in terms of "cupcakes" or the like.


I stand by qtip. She could easily be a cake eater. To ignore this possibility is foolish IMO (not calling you a fool though) and yes, it's an ordinary case because cheating is cheating


----------



## wmn1

the guy said:


> Screw her and her decisions......
> 
> She just stabbed her old man in the back and now wants to keep the family unit together (good for ww) and folks think she has a say.........
> 
> OP's old lady should be happy this crap isn't a deal breaker and she isn't couch surfing.
> 
> OP's ol lady deserves a hard spanking and take it with a smile as she has gotten a second chance in keeping her family together.


:iagree:


----------



## Q tip

PC taking over rational, critical thought??? Not on TAMs watch. Cheating is cheating. Nothing PC in that whatsoever.


----------



## bfree

wmn1 said:


> I stand by qtip. She could easily be a cake eater. To ignore this possibility is foolish IMO (not calling you a fool though) and yes, it's an ordinary case because cheating is cheating


If she is stringing FM along it will become evident at some point. He wants to try and reconcile and from what I've seen he's pretty smart. He'll know if it's a lost cause. But as long as he wants to try to salvage his marriage I'm going to support him in that effort. If he should decide on divorce I'll support him in that as well.


----------



## Chaparral

How long has it been since she has had sex with a man? Surely you can do better than her girlfriend.


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## wmn1

I think everyone here is on FM's side, Bfree. People just have different views on how to support.


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## wmn1

and he shouldn't take anything for granted, including the stringing along possibility.

He is an intelligent person and made some good moves and some bad ones but he also is so fixated on R from what I have read that he is susceptible to being taken advantage of even moreso than he has been already.

I feel most people here are supportive of him, myself included.


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## cdbaker

Believe me I understand the desire you have to see a bit of change immediately, and how hard the emotional roller coaster can be. You experienced a high last weekend when she came home and said all the right things, or her "brain" did rather, followed by a low this week of feeling like she's only half-committed, or her actions feel somewhat cold or half-hearted. I really think most of that is normal. You might remember that in a previous post of mine I pointed out how, once my wife finally actually had NC with her affair partner and was officially recommitted to working on the marriage, she fell into a depression. Everything she did was half-hearted. She was grieving the loss of another relationship, while trying and struggling to assure herself that she was making the right, rational, logical, morally acceptable choice of coming back home to me, while her heart felt broken for the affair partner and the emotional high's that accompanied that.

(Speaking of that, be as vigilant as ever regarding your wife and the OW, my wife eventually couldn't take it after about 10 days and finally gave in to his attempts to reach out to her)

It's ok to be respectful, cordial, friendly, etc. towards her, but REALLY don't push it, especially with the wanting to talk about "us" part. She just won't be ready for that yet, she'll become defensive and start to question her decision more if you do that. Give her some time/space and continue to try to heal yourself as well. One cost of you having tried to save the marriage despite being the betrayed spouse, is that you haven't had the proper time to grieve and find healing yourself. You can't really process through that betrayal while also trying to support and "win back" the very person who betrayed you. So don't forget that.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Update: 

This last weekend (Super Bowl weekend) iy really became evident to me, that while a week ago she had said that I was the one that she wanted and did break up with / sever contact with the OW, she really was still very conflicted about what she wanted and who she was. She was very resistant to any type of affection and was generally cold. I think thats to be expected given the situation, but it's too hard given the situation to live with someone who doesn't know if they want to be there. Plus, she didn't really have the time and space to figure it out (and there wasn't strong motivation to do so sine she was home with her family). Basically, I think that when she left last time, she came back in a day and a half because she missed the children not because she was sure of what she wanted.

So I strongly suggested that she take more time alone to figure things out and she agreed. So she's temporarily moved out and is living at a friends empty vacation condo. She's said she is not going to contact the OW (or me for that matter) until she's figured things out (and this has been reinforced by her friends that know the situation). I believe that's her intention, but regardless if she does or not, she's not coming home until she's ready to commit 100%. I communicated all this in a very supportive safe way - I just wanted her to have the space to figure this out vs. I was kicking her out and I think she felt it was a positive move on my part.

We've set up a kids visitation plan where she can see them several times this week but most of the time if off on her own. We are going to evaluate this weekend next steps. I anticipate this taking a while, but I think we'll take it week by week for now.

If it does end up going longer than this week (which seems very likely - I'm thinking this will be a several month thing), we'll tell the kids what's happening at a high level and go public with friends and family for more support. 

I am still hopeful, but less so than in the beginning. This is still a big internal conflict for her ("am I a lesbian?" "in what lifestyle will I be happy long term etc") but hopefully the space will bring her some clarity or at least a resolution. One thing that is frustrating is that a lot of the friend support she is getting is just emotional support ("I'll love you either way" or "you owe it to yourself to figure this out" etc) which is valuable, but no one seems to be asking good critical questions to really help her like "this seems really out of character for you, is there more to this?" or "are you really attracted to women in general or just this one woman (which seems to be the case)?" or "most likely this affair won't end up being a long term relationship. are you ok with living a lesbian lifestyle with a different woman, etc". These are the types of questions would ask of a good friend. But, I can't control any of that, so I have to let it go. 

In the meantime, I'm working on me and executing the 180 plan for the relationship during this separation. I'm starting to prepare myself for moving on alone and have talked to a lawyer to I am prepared for the worst. 

I'll see her for the first time since she left again tonight at one of our kid's athletic practice for a couple hours. Hopefully I'll be able to stick to the 180 and be cool.


----------



## FamilyMan15

One thing that I could use advice on is just dealing with the day to day emotions typical of the first several weeks after discovery.

The emotions are just flooring me and I feel like I am just spiraling down. The affair and situation is always on my mind and it's very hard to focus on anything else. It doesn't help that my job has lots of idle time perfect for neurotically thinking about things.

I'm just focusing on making it through the next hour and really trying to not dwell on the negative thoughts, but that it easier said than done. I know the pain will go away eventually, but how do I deal with it in the meantime?


----------



## FamilyMan15

also anything important to know about separations and dealing with them (legal or otherwise)?


----------



## ButtPunch

I had to see a dr. for anxiety meds so I could sleep at night. I feel your pain. While I think you are handling things wrong, I understand what you are going thru. 

Let me make this clear. She is in love with the OW. She doesn't tell you to spare your feelings. I know it's hard to accept but it is what it is. She now wants to cake eat. Stop this nonsense and EXPOSE EXPOSE EXPOSE. File for divorce. Cut her off financially. Weakness will not help you win your wife back.


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## Chaparral

The best two things you can do is see your MD for temporary help and work out, especially with weights. Many exercises like jogging and cycling gives to much "thought" time. Weightlifting takes concentration in balancing and counting reps. It also is a natural mood elevator for sure. The physical benefits are huge and builds self confidence.

Find something to to keep you occupied at work..........just don't get fired.

Re the 180.........the most important part is to stay, fake, cheerfulness around her.


----------



## FamilyMan15

You very well may be right, but she's not eating any of my side of the cake. She sees the kids very little and contributes half of the family income. I'm leaving her alone until she figures things out.


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> One thing that I could use advice on is just dealing with the day to day emotions typical of the first several weeks after discovery.
> 
> The emotions are just flooring me and I feel like I am just spiraling down. The affair and situation is always on my mind and it's very hard to focus on anything else. It doesn't help that my job has lots of idle time perfect for neurotically thinking about things.
> 
> I'm just focusing on making it through the next hour and really trying to not dwell on the negative thoughts, but that it easier said than done. I know the pain will go away eventually, but how do I deal with it in the meantime?


Two things could help:

1). No longer being in denial about her sexuality

2). Not taking it personally

FM, she is bisexual. Accepting that without trying to minimize it in any way could bring you some clarity. Accepting that she, according to that Ann Landers piece I linked for you (did you read it?) has likely had these urges before, whether she ever confided in you about them or not, could help you, too.

FM, she is not who you thought. I do not know if she purposely did not tell you in the past, or if it all came up more recently. But the bottom line is that she has sexuality that has not been taken into joint consideration. 

Think about how hard it would be to change your sexual orientation. Do you think it is even possible? Could you really make yourself desire men? Isn't the thought completely unappealing to you, like you would rather live celibate than ever be sexual with someone of the same sex?

Likewise, think of your wife struggling with this. I doubt she wants to feel this way. It really interrupts this tidy life you and she have made. But she cannot deny her feelings, either. And to even try, she has to self-medicate with alcohol. Totally unhealthy.

You did not cause this. Even if you were not the nicest person to live with for a while, that did not cause her interest in other women. Honestly, I would not even be hard on yourself for not being able to provide her with the emotional safety she needs right now. You have done your best. No one can ask you to do more.

You are a nice person, FM. As much as you are struggling emotionally right now, you will stabilize and be able to move on. You are strong enough to do that.

And your wife needs to move on, too. For her to be happy and stable, she needs to be as honest and congruent as possible in her life. She cannot live in denial.

I think giving up denial, and respectfully, but genuinely, facing things head on would bring a lot of peace to both of you.

Again, sorry that all of you are going through this. What a transition. The kids are going to need support, heavily from you. Your attitude is probably where they are going to take their cues. Make sure it is as healthy and genuine as possible. Kids trust authenticity.

Good luck. This cannot be easy, for either of you.


----------



## Chaparral

Is nice she didn't make any effort to reconnect with you, you need to go on the assumption she isn't coming back. Further, it may influence her to your benefit to let her see you and the kids can be fine without her. She also needs to know there are plenty of women out there looking for a good man.


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## ButtPunch

Chaparral said:


> Is nice she didn't make any effort to reconnect with you, you need to go on the assumption she isn't coming back. Further, it may influence her to your benefit to let her see you and the kids can be fine without her. She also needs to know there are plenty of women out there looking for a good man.


This is good advice. All part of the 180. Be cheerful, look sharp when around her. Fake it if you have to. Weight lifting will help like Chap said. Find the energy to do it. 

What I mean by cake eating. She hasn't faced any consequences for her cheating yet. She knows she can come back to you when she wants. She is now going to pursue her affair from her bachelor pad with you on the back burner in her mind. IMO, despite what JLD says, I think you are the only one hurting here. 

I know I can be blunt, but I am rooting for you.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Two things could help:
> 
> 1). No longer being in denial about her sexuality
> 
> 2). Not taking it personally
> 
> FM, she is bisexual. Accepting that without trying to minimize it in any way could bring you some clarity. Accepting that she, according to that Ann Landers piece I linked for you (did you read it?) has likely had these urges before, whether she ever confided in you about them or not, could help you, too.
> 
> FM, she is not who you thought. I do not know if she purposely did not tell you in the past, or if it all came up more recently. But the bottom line is that she has sexuality that has not been taken into joint consideration.
> 
> Think about how hard it would be to change your sexual orientation. Do you think it is even possible? Could you really make yourself desire men? Isn't the thought completely unappealing to you, like you would rather live celibate than ever be sexual with someone of the same sex?
> 
> Likewise, think of your wife struggling with this. I doubt she wants to feel this way. It really interrupts this tidy life you and she have made. But she cannot deny her feelings, either. And to even try, she has to self-medicate with alcohol. Totally unhealthy.
> 
> You did not cause this. Even if you were not the nicest person to live with for a while, that did not cause her interest in other women. Honestly, I would not even be hard on yourself for not being able to provide her with the emotional safety she needs right now. You have done your best. No one can ask you to do more.
> 
> You are a nice person, *xxxxx*. As much as you are struggling emotionally right now, you will stabilize and be able to move on. You are strong enough to do that.
> 
> And your wife needs to move on, too. For her to be happy and stable, she needs to be as honest and congruent as possible in her life. She cannot live in denial.
> 
> I think giving up denial, and respectfully, but genuinely, facing things head on would bring a lot of peace to both of you.
> 
> Again, sorry that all of you are going through this. What a transition. The kids are going to need support, heavily from you. Your attitude is probably where they are going to take their cues. Make sure it is as healthy and genuine as possible. Kids trust authenticity.
> 
> Good luck. This cannot be easy, for either of you.


I don't know if the OP has revealed his real name on his thread but if he hasn't I would remove it.


----------



## barcodelabelhere

FM,

I haven't made it through your whole thread yet, but I've made it through most of it. I'm sorry you're here. I don't have any advice on the major part of all of this, which is that your wife cheated on you and you are trying to recover as best you can.

However, I am an out gay woman (here because my partner cheated on me with a 'straight' woman). So I have some insight on the sexuality part of things. If you have any questions on that front, I can try to help as best I can. I agree with all of the people who have said cheating is cheating - it absolutely is. But the sexuality component of it is a whole other layer. Let me know if I can help.


----------



## jld

Oh, sorry about that. I do not even know his real name. Autocorrect on my iPad, I guess. Should have proofread more carefully before posting.

Sorry, FM.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

FamilyMan15 said:


> Update:
> 
> 
> In the meantime, I'm working on me and executing the 180 plan for the relationship during this separation. I'm starting to prepare myself for moving on alone and have talked to a lawyer to I am prepared for the worst.
> 
> I'll see her for the first time since she left again tonight at one of our kid's athletic practice for a couple hours. Hopefully I'll be able to stick to the 180 and be cool.


The 180 is exactly what you need to do. Even though you want to hold out for one last desperate hope, the writing is on the wall and it's time for you to read it for what it is. 99% chance she's gone. Accept it. Waiting around for months isn't going to do anything but increase your misery. If she can't decide soon, then you are the one that has to make the decision to end it. Don't leave everything up to her as you seem to still be doing.


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## happyman64

FM

Chap is right as well as a few others.

Stop being a nice guy.

So you are giving her time. Great. With that time comes consequences.

Go see an attorney and legalize your separation.

If it was me I would file for divorce. I am pro marriage.

But your wife's lies, affair and confusion are on her.

I think her being handed divorce papers will help her decide.

And until she feels the loss of you and the marriage starting she will not feel any consequences or pressure.

Stop being nice.

HM


----------



## cdbaker

So much here to process...

For starters... I get the feeling that the entire dynamic of the situation has change quite a bit here. Where as before it felt a lot more like this was a matter of convincing you that she was still lying/can't be trusted, that she might still be plotting to run off with your kids, that you need to defend yourself asap and your being in denial about it all, to now it seems like you're a bit more accepting of the situation, not really overly concerned about how the situation turns out in the end and accepting of that reality either way. It also sounds like you trust her now, maybe not in her being truthful with you (I'm positive she's still not being 100% truthful with you) but maybe in that you trust that she won't do anything legally speaking to screw you over. Like take the kids and run away, or press for a 100% full custody and say/do anything to paint you as a bad dad, etc. Is any of that true? Only you can judge her potential to stab you in the back further and the manner in which she can do so, and unfortunately you are a very biased judge in this scenario, but we are also a very biased jury with only one side of the story. Honestly, at the very least however, you should still be meeting with a lawyer to have a case ready, a divorce and emergency temporary custody petition ready.

Next, I agree with others that you are still being too much of a pushover nice guy. You're still just reinforcing in her mind that she is fully in control, that you'll go along with anything she says/wants and be fully compliant. She still doesn't have any genuine remorse for what she has done, and her "I might be a lesbian" nonsense is still allowing her to get away with it from you and her friends. This is all playing out in exactly such a way as to most benefit her from a guilt/blame angle, and you're actively encouraging it whether you realize it or not. Remember, if she just cheated on you, then the blame, shame, guilt, etc. is all 100% her fault/responsibility. If she cheated on you as a result of the possibility that she may be a lesbian, then both of you are just the unfortunate victims of her 2+ decades of confusion and instead of receiving guilt/shame/humiliation from others over her actions, she'll instead have their sympathy and support.

Here's the key though, the *only way* she can sell that farce of a story is if she can drag this out for a long while. Why? Imagine the alternatives:

1. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught, but then quickly returns to her husband/family to recommit. Her ploy won't be very believable in this case, because if she really might be a lesbian, then it would make sense that she'd need a lot of time and probably therapy to figure it all out for sure and then make decisions. Not doing so indicates that the lesbian stuff was just a nonsense excuse or, if she _really_ thought she might be a lesbian, that she's just going back into denial by returning to you so quickly and risking betraying you again (all your mutual friends would warn you of this and be distrustful of her). This isn't an ideal result for her.

2. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught and then quickly leaves you to be with the other woman. Then, even those who believe that she might indeed be a lesbian because of the confidently advanced step she's taken in leaving you will question her for having made this decision so quickly without being honest with her husband or giving him fair warning to process, or first seeing a therapist or even MC to determine if it's the right course of action. She'll be viewed as a cheater who, even if she was facing an unfortunate sexual identity crisis while married, handling it in an incredibly cruel and destructive way. This isn't ideal for her either.

3. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught, then convinces and friends/family that she needs time to process through these conflicting feelings and emotions she's having. She offers petty remorse to her husband, because that's to be expected for spouse in the unfortunate position of being married to a potential homosexual. Maybe she see's a therapist a couple times, she isn't concerned with concealing the situation from others (knowing that it will all come out in one way or the other anyway). She receives the love, sympathy and support of everyone during her "trying time" and gets the freedom to do as she pleases, including possibly (likely) remaining in touch with the OW without accountability. Then after a long while of doing these "responsible" steps for someone dealing with a sexual identity crisis, she...
A. ...decides to come home to her husband/family and recommit to the marriage. Most family/friends are pleased with this, they know that trust will need to be rebuilt but they feel that she's handled the "unfortunate situation" in the best way possible, ensuring their continued love/sympathy/support. This is an ideal result for her if she genuinely realizes that she is not a lesbian, as we all suspect.
B. ...decides she wants to continue her selfish fantasy world a bit longer and choose to go be with the other woman. She might even sell it as a 2nd step to her "process of figuring out who she really is" by saying she needs time with the other woman without the secrecy to see if that's what she really wants. Whether she plays it that way or not, most family/friends might be somewhat disappointed that the marriage is over (not that "she walked away from the marriage, implying fault, but "that the marriage is over" implying it's really no ones fault) and will try to offer their love/support to both spouses in order to make the divorce (or extended separation) as amicable and smooth as possible. This is an ideal result for her if she genuinely thinks she might be a lesbian (which none of us believe) or just wants to take advantage of you even longer to enjoy herself more.


See, ultimately the best case scenario for her is one where she gets what she wants and doesn't have to deal with the scorn/guilt/shame of her friends/family. If she can convince you of all this as well, then that is just a bonus. In either of the latter two A & B scenarios, she gets to walk away blameless as a sympathetic figure with the love/support/sympathy of her family and friends, with minimal consequences, having been able to have her cake and eat it too all along the way.



FamilyMan15 said:


> You very well may be right, but she's not eating any of my side of the cake. She sees the kids very little and contributes half of the family income. I'm leaving her alone until she figures things out.


Not true. She has your support to be doing what she is doing now. She knows you will gladly accept her back with open arms at any time. She knows you still love her and will continue to love her. She knows that you haven't cut her off in any way, and believes confidently that you won't do so. She's facing none of the shame/scorn of your family and friends, most of whom you have protected this information from. She see's the kids as much as she wants to (she's not begging for more time with them while you turn her down after all, is she?), while enjoying complete freedom and zero accountability, all with your permission and support. She is getting every bit of "cake" she could possibly want from you. Honestly I'm not trying to be mean here,*but what "cake" do you think you are withholding from her???*


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> Two things could help:
> 
> 1). No longer being in denial about her sexuality
> 
> 2). Not taking it personally
> 
> FM, she is bisexual. Accepting that without trying to minimize it in any way could bring you some clarity. Accepting that she, according to that Ann Landers piece I linked for you (did you read it?) has likely had these urges before, whether she ever confided in you about them or not, could help you, too.
> 
> FM, she is not who you thought. I do not know if she purposely did not tell you in the past, or if it all came up more recently. But the bottom line is that she has sexuality that has not been taken into joint consideration.
> 
> Think about how hard it would be to change your sexual orientation. Do you think it is even possible? Could you really make yourself desire men? Isn't the thought completely unappealing to you, like you would rather live celibate than ever be sexual with someone of the same sex?
> 
> Likewise, think of your wife struggling with this. I doubt she wants to feel this way. It really interrupts this tidy life you and she have made. But she cannot deny her feelings, either. And to even try, she has to self-medicate with alcohol. Totally unhealthy.
> 
> You did not cause this. Even if you were not the nicest person to live with for a while, that did not cause her interest in other women. Honestly, I would not even be hard on yourself for not being able to provide her with the emotional safety she needs right now. You have done your best. No one can ask you to do more.
> 
> You are a nice person, FM. As much as you are struggling emotionally right now, you will stabilize and be able to move on. You are strong enough to do that.
> 
> And your wife needs to move on, too. For her to be happy and stable, she needs to be as honest and congruent as possible in her life. She cannot live in denial.
> 
> I think giving up denial, and respectfully, but genuinely, facing things head on would bring a lot of peace to both of you.
> 
> Again, sorry that all of you are going through this. What a transition. The kids are going to need support, heavily from you. Your attitude is probably where they are going to take their cues. Make sure it is as healthy and genuine as possible. Kids trust authenticity.
> 
> Good luck. This cannot be easy, for either of you.


You actually bring up some really good points. If she was truly a lesbian I would agree 100% - it's time to move on and as much as it would hurt, I could be at peace. 

But does the bisexual part change things? Couldn't she choose either?


----------



## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> Is nice she didn't make any effort to reconnect with you, you need to go on the assumption she isn't coming back. Further, it may influence her to your benefit to let her see you and the kids can be fine without her. She also needs to know there are plenty of women out there looking for a good man.


I'm going with the assumption she's not coming back and preparing to move on. But I'm still hopeful.


----------



## FamilyMan15

barcodelabelhere said:


> FM,
> 
> I haven't made it through your whole thread yet, but I've made it through most of it. I'm sorry you're here. I don't have any advice on the major part of all of this, which is that your wife cheated on you and you are trying to recover as best you can.
> 
> However, I am an out gay woman (here because my partner cheated on me with a 'straight' woman). So I have some insight on the sexuality part of things. If you have any questions on that front, I can try to help as best I can. I agree with all of the people who have said cheating is cheating - it absolutely is. But the sexuality component of it is a whole other layer. Let me know if I can help.


Thanks for stopping in. I can use all the help I can get.

I guess I'd be curious of questions for my wife to consider to help her figure out if she is gay, bisexual, bi-curious, or just depressed and vulnerable (that one seems unlikely or denial on my part). 

For example, what would you consider the "straight" woman your partner cheated on you with? That's really what she is struggling with. Can a "straight" woman be "turned" bisexual/lesbian or could it just be a situational thing or would she always have been bisexual/lesbian and just never been in touch with those feelings (or at least didn't admit it). I apologize if any of my questions are offensive - it's not the intent at all. The whole bisexuality thing is a mystery to me. Assuming you were truly happy (physically+emotionally) in a heterosexual relationship, can you become lesbian later or is bisexual the only other option? or can circumstances change your sexual preference?

Like what would she be if she was just attracted to one woman vs. all women (with a heavy emotional component)? and does that make any difference in a cheating situation? Ultimately I agree that cheating is cheating and if she was wrestling with sexual identity there are other ways to figure that out other than stepping out of the marriage.


----------



## barcodelabelhere

Honestly, FM, the sexuality aspect of this does not change anything. It's confusing and an extra layer, but does it really matter if she's gay or straight or somewhere in between? 

She cheated on you. It really doesn't matter to you what parts the other person had. If she was an honest, courageous person, she would have told you about her uncertainty about her sexuality, not cheated and lied and hurt you.

Stop fixating on the labels of lesbian/bisexual/whatever. That's her journey and she has to figure out what she wants. She doesn't have to be labelled. 

You have to figure out how to stand up for yourself and take care of you.

ETA, because I just saw your post: I consider the 'straight' woman my partner cheated with to be a giant c*&^y b#$%h. But I also think that she is a gay woman who was either hiding or repressing - she's in her mid-30s and just got out of a long-term relationship. 

Without going too deep into the whole sexuality thing, I think people fall on a spectrum between gay and straight. Some are 100% one or the other. The rest are somewhere along the way, and a bunch of circumstances can lead them to a sexual experience or relationship with someone of the same sex, much as they could lead to someone who identifies as gay having a sexual experience or relationship with someone of the opposite sex. Your wife is figuring out where she is on that spectrum, and it's a hard thing to do.

She may be gay. She may be bi-curious. She may be straight and this one woman, for whatever reason, knocked her off kilter.


----------



## jld

FamilyMan15 said:


> You actually bring up some really good points. If she was truly a lesbian I would agree 100% - it's time to move on and as much as it would hurt, I could be at peace.
> 
> But does the bisexual part change things? Couldn't she choose either?


She is on the bisexual range. I think she is over on the deeper end.

What is it going to take to convince you?


----------



## cdbaker

Also, I'll add again that I am really very sympathetic to your situation. I've already stated how I am very familiar with what it is like to have a lying, cheating spouse who repeatedly is going back and forth on what she wants without any conviction. It's a gut wrenching roller coaster.



FamilyMan15 said:


> also anything important to know about separations and dealing with them (legal or otherwise)?


Legal separations are an expensive waste. But if you really are committed to your current course of action (ignoring the advice of most of us here), I'd still *highly* suggest you meet with an MC who has some experience with successful marital separations who can help you produce a separation agreement. It's not a legal separation of course, it's just a document containing a list of rules and processes that you both agree to abide by during the separation, with a plan for how the separation with conclude, that both of you will sign. I think I have listed the kinds of things this should include in a previous post, if not there are lots of lists online elsewhere, but this will help you both figure out all of the little decisions that need to be made while separated (like who pays which bills, has the kids when, transportation arrangements, how much money can be spent or the disposition of financial/investment accounts, etc.) to separation specific questions (like who will be allowed to know about what's going on, where you'll both live, what the rules will be pertaining to relationships with other people, etc.) to a thoughtful plan for ending the separation. Like a firm, set schedule for when you will both get together (hopefully with an MC), to catch up with your feelings/concerns while you were apart, to work through some of the lingering marital problems and ultimately set an end date for the separation to resume living together and continue to reconcile, or an end date for deciding to proceed with divorce instead.

Again, this document is not legally binding, but as far as the little decisions and the strategy for getting together from time to time to try to work through problems, this planning can be extremely helpful and avoid a lot of potential conflict. As far as certain elements like agreeing that neither spouse will see other people, or have contact with certain toxic individuals like former/current affair partners, this document can't really do much to prevent that. In my own case, my wife broke this rule on the very day that we signed our separation agreement, she never had any intention of following it. In that event, the separation agreement and the evidence/proof of her breaking it (if she does break it) can be admitted in court as evidence of her wreckless behavior, willingness to prioritize her own selfish desires over the well being of her children, and of her inability to be trusted in general. I'm not saying it's a smoking gun or anything, but at the very least it paints a very negative image in the mind of a typical judge.


----------



## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> But does the bisexual part change things? Couldn't she choose either?


I don't really think it changes anything at all. For instance, I'm fully hetero, but that doesn't mean that I'm singularly attracted to only my wife. I see women every day that I find myself attracted to, and if I wanted to, I could pursue adulterous relationships with some of them as well, but I choose not to. *The only difference between me being straight or bi-sexual, is the number of attractive people out there with whom I would be choosing to not have an adulterous relationship with.* Just because I'm attracted to lots of different women doesn't mean that I need to be romantically involved with lots of different women, just as a bisexual doesn't need to be romantically involved with lots of different men or women. Gay, straight or bi, we *choose* to be monogamous with one person despite our natural attraction to other people, or we don't and we cheat. That's all there is to it. Whether your wife is on the "bi spectrum" or not really doesn't make a difference in her ability or inability to be monogamous.


----------



## FamilyMan15

happyman64 said:


> FM
> 
> Chap is right as well as a few others.
> 
> Stop being a nice guy.
> 
> So you are giving her time. Great. With that time comes consequences.
> 
> Go see an attorney and legalize your separation.
> 
> If it was me I would file for divorce. I am pro marriage.
> 
> But your wife's lies, affair and confusion are on her.
> 
> I think her being handed divorce papers will help her decide.
> 
> And until she feels the loss of you and the marriage starting she will not feel any consequences or pressure.
> 
> Stop being nice.
> 
> HM


I'm meeting with a lawyer tomorrow to get prepared. Sunday, we are going to evaluate where she is and from there I'll decide what to do next. My state doesn't have legal separations and filling for divorce would definitely put her in defense mode. I don't think it would prompt any other action beside trying to "win" the divorce. Her friends are keeping my informed with her mental state and, at least at this point, everything seems legit.


----------



## Nucking Futs

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm meeting with a lawyer tomorrow to get prepared. Sunday, we are going to evaluate where she is and from there I'll decide what to do next. My state doesn't have legal separations and filling for divorce would definitely put her in defense mode. I don't think it would prompt any other action beside trying to "win" the divorce. *Her friends are keeping my informed with her mental state* and, at least at this point, everything seems legit.


That will end when you file for divorce.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> So much here to process...
> 
> For starters... I get the feeling that the entire dynamic of the situation has change quite a bit here. Where as before it felt a lot more like this was a matter of convincing you that she was still lying/can't be trusted, that she might still be plotting to run off with your kids, that you need to defend yourself asap and your being in denial about it all, to now it seems like you're a bit more accepting of the situation, not really overly concerned about how the situation turns out in the end and accepting of that reality either way. It also sounds like you trust her now, maybe not in her being truthful with you (I'm positive she's still not being 100% truthful with you) but maybe in that you trust that she won't do anything legally speaking to screw you over. Like take the kids and run away, or press for a 100% full custody and say/do anything to paint you as a bad dad, etc. Is any of that true? Only you can judge her potential to stab you in the back further and the manner in which she can do so, and unfortunately you are a very biased judge in this scenario, but we are also a very biased jury with only one side of the story. Honestly, at the very least however, you should still be meeting with a lawyer to have a case ready, a divorce and emergency temporary custody petition ready.
> 
> Next, I agree with others that you are still being too much of a pushover nice guy. You're still just reinforcing in her mind that she is fully in control, that you'll go along with anything she says/wants and be fully compliant. She still doesn't have any genuine remorse for what she has done, and her "I might be a lesbian" nonsense is still allowing her to get away with it from you and her friends. This is all playing out in exactly such a way as to most benefit her from a guilt/blame angle, and you're actively encouraging it whether you realize it or not. Remember, if she just cheated on you, then the blame, shame, guilt, etc. is all 100% her fault/responsibility. If she cheated on you as a result of the possibility that she may be a lesbian, then both of you are just the unfortunate victims of her 2+ decades of confusion and instead of receiving guilt/shame/humiliation from others over her actions, she'll instead have their sympathy and support.
> 
> Here's the key though, the *only way* she can sell that farce of a story is if she can drag this out for a long while. Why? Imagine the alternatives:
> 
> 1. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught, but then quickly returns to her husband/family to recommit. Her ploy won't be very believable in this case, because if she really might be a lesbian, then it would make sense that she'd need a lot of time and probably therapy to figure it all out for sure and then make decisions. Not doing so indicates that the lesbian stuff was just a nonsense excuse or, if she _really_ thought she might be a lesbian, that she's just going back into denial by returning to you so quickly and risking betraying you again (all your mutual friends would warn you of this and be distrustful of her). This isn't an ideal result for her.
> 
> 2. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught and then quickly leaves you to be with the other woman. Then, even those who believe that she might indeed be a lesbian because of the confidently advanced step she's taken in leaving you will question her for having made this decision so quickly without being honest with her husband or giving him fair warning to process, or first seeing a therapist or even MC to determine if it's the right course of action. She'll be viewed as a cheater who, even if she was facing an unfortunate sexual identity crisis while married, handling it in an incredibly cruel and destructive way. This isn't ideal for her either.
> 
> 3. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught, then convinces and friends/family that she needs time to process through these conflicting feelings and emotions she's having. She offers petty remorse to her husband, because that's to be expected for spouse in the unfortunate position of being married to a potential homosexual. Maybe she see's a therapist a couple times, she isn't concerned with concealing the situation from others (knowing that it will all come out in one way or the other anyway). She receives the love, sympathy and support of everyone during her "trying time" and gets the freedom to do as she pleases, including possibly (likely) remaining in touch with the OW without accountability. Then after a long while of doing these "responsible" steps for someone dealing with a sexual identity crisis, she...
> A. ...decides to come home to her husband/family and recommit to the marriage. Most family/friends are pleased with this, they know that trust will need to be rebuilt but they feel that she's handled the "unfortunate situation" in the best way possible, ensuring their continued love/sympathy/support. This is an ideal result for her if she genuinely realizes that she is not a lesbian, as we all suspect.
> B. ...decides she wants to continue her selfish fantasy world a bit longer and choose to go be with the other woman. She might even sell it as a 2nd step to her "process of figuring out who she really is" by saying she needs time with the other woman without the secrecy to see if that's what she really wants. Whether she plays it that way or not, most family/friends might be somewhat disappointed that the marriage is over (not that "she walked away from the marriage, implying fault, but "that the marriage is over" implying it's really no ones fault) and will try to offer their love/support to both spouses in order to make the divorce (or extended separation) as amicable and smooth as possible. This is an ideal result for her if she genuinely thinks she might be a lesbian (which none of us believe) or just wants to take advantage of you even longer to enjoy herself more.
> 
> 
> See, ultimately the best case scenario for her is one where she gets what she wants and doesn't have to deal with the scorn/guilt/shame of her friends/family. If she can convince you of all this as well, then that is just a bonus. In either of the latter two A & B scenarios, she gets to walk away blameless as a sympathetic figure with the love/support/sympathy of her family and friends, with minimal consequences, having been able to have her cake and eat it too all along the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. She has your support to be doing what she is doing now. She knows you will gladly accept her back with open arms at any time. She knows you still love her and will continue to love her. She knows that you haven't cut her off in any way, and believes confidently that you won't do so. She's facing none of the shame/scorn of your family and friends, most of whom you have protected this information from. She see's the kids as much as she wants to (she's not begging for more time with them while you turn her down after all, is she?), while enjoying complete freedom and zero accountability, all with your permission and support. She is getting every bit of "cake" she could possibly want from you. Honestly I'm not trying to be mean here,*but what "cake" do you think you are withholding from her???*


I actually appreciate your thought process here. But all of your scenarios assume a non-sincere intent. Obviously, she is not above lying, but what if the confusion is genuine? I'm still going forward with assume she's not being genuine, but I need to allow for the possibility that she is. 

As to the cake-withholding, she's only seeing the kids at their various sports games and that's it (on my insistence). No house visits/calls, mornings, family time etc. For her, that's significant. Honestly it's the only real pressure I have to push her to a resolution. I she says she needs space, she's getting space - lots of it.


----------



## FamilyMan15

barcodelabelhere said:


> Honestly, FM, the sexuality aspect of this does not change anything. It's confusing and an extra layer, but does it really matter if she's gay or straight or somewhere in between?


I agree. Cheating is cheating. The only issue it presents is if reconciliation is even possible. That's the part we are stuck in right now. The am I gay question has put her in a limbo. She doesn't want to reconcile if ultimately it's the wrong path for her personally.


----------



## FamilyMan15

barcodelabelhere said:


> Your wife is figuring out where she is on that spectrum, and it's a hard thing to do.
> 
> She may be gay. She may be bi-curious. She may be straight and this one woman, for whatever reason, knocked her off kilter.


I guess that's the fundamental problem right now. It's not about a label. It's about figuring out what she really wants in order to be happy long term. How does she figure that out? It think the "knocked her off kilter" is a great way to describe what she expresses that she is feeling. 

She said recently that her head wants me, but her heart is pulling her another direction and she's trying to reconcile that. Which is right?


----------



## FamilyMan15

jld said:


> She is on the bisexual range. I think she is over on the deeper end.
> 
> What is it going to take to convince you?


That part's out of my hands. She the one who has to convince herself what she prefers I think. I can say that for 18 years she preferred males. It's only the last year that it seems to have shifted for some reason.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> Also, I'll add again that I am really very sympathetic to your situation. I've already stated how I am very familiar with what it is like to have a lying, cheating spouse who repeatedly is going back and forth on what she wants without any conviction. It's a gut wrenching roller coaster.
> 
> 
> 
> Legal separations are an expensive waste. But if you really are committed to your current course of action (ignoring the advice of most of us here), I'd still *highly* suggest you meet with an MC who has some experience with successful marital separations who can help you produce a separation agreement. It's not a legal separation of course, it's just a document containing a list of rules and processes that you both agree to abide by during the separation, with a plan for how the separation with conclude, that both of you will sign. I think I have listed the kinds of things this should include in a previous post, if not there are lots of lists online elsewhere, but this will help you both figure out all of the little decisions that need to be made while separated (like who pays which bills, has the kids when, transportation arrangements, how much money can be spent or the disposition of financial/investment accounts, etc.) to separation specific questions (like who will be allowed to know about what's going on, where you'll both live, what the rules will be pertaining to relationships with other people, etc.) to a thoughtful plan for ending the separation. Like a firm, set schedule for when you will both get together (hopefully with an MC), to catch up with your feelings/concerns while you were apart, to work through some of the lingering marital problems and ultimately set an end date for the separation to resume living together and continue to reconcile, or an end date for deciding to proceed with divorce instead.
> 
> Again, this document is not legally binding, but as far as the little decisions and the strategy for getting together from time to time to try to work through problems, this planning can be extremely helpful and avoid a lot of potential conflict. As far as certain elements like agreeing that neither spouse will see other people, or have contact with certain toxic individuals like former/current affair partners, this document can't really do much to prevent that. In my own case, my wife broke this rule on the very day that we signed our separation agreement, she never had any intention of following it. In that event, the separation agreement and the evidence/proof of her breaking it (if she does break it) can be admitted in court as evidence of her wreckless behavior, willingness to prioritize her own selfish desires over the well being of her children, and of her inability to be trusted in general. I'm not saying it's a smoking gun or anything, but at the very least it paints a very negative image in the mind of a typical judge.


I think that's a great idea. We are discussing this stuff Sunday if we decide to make this separation more permanent. She knows that I'm prepared for divorce, but I'd like to let this play out a bit more. I'm in a community property state if that makes a difference.


----------



## FamilyMan15

cdbaker said:


> I don't really think it changes anything at all. For instance, I'm fully hetero, but that doesn't mean that I'm singularly attracted to only my wife. I see women every day that I find myself attracted to, and if I wanted to, I could pursue adulterous relationships with some of them as well, but I choose not to. *The only difference between me being straight or bi-sexual, is the number of attractive people out there with whom I would be choosing to not have an adulterous relationship with.* Just because I'm attracted to lots of different women doesn't mean that I need to be romantically involved with lots of different women, just as a bisexual doesn't need to be romantically involved with lots of different men or women. Gay, straight or bi, we *choose* to be monogamous with one person despite our natural attraction to other people, or we don't and we cheat. That's all there is to it. Whether your wife is on the "bi spectrum" or not really doesn't make a difference in her ability or inability to be monogamous.


I agree with everything you are saying here. But she's the one stuck in this confused state and she seems to think otherwise. The only thing I can understand is that if so some reason I developed very strong gay feelings, I would be concerned that I could never be happy if I remained in my heterosexual relationship. But I still wouldn't cheat. I'd see a therapist to explore those feelings.


----------



## cdbaker

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm meeting with a lawyer tomorrow to get prepared. Sunday, we are going to evaluate where she is and from there I'll decide what to do next. My state doesn't have legal separations and filling for divorce would definitely put her in defense mode. I don't think it would prompt any other action beside trying to "win" the divorce. Her friends are keeping my informed with her mental state and, at least at this point, everything seems legit.


Glad to hear you are going forward with meeting with the lawyer and willing to stay prepared. I assume you have kept this meeting to yourself?

As for her response to a potential divorce filing, mostly to force the situation forward, yes she could react in a hostile manner or in a more desperate manner. One natural reaction is to treat it as an attack, and go full blown defensive mode. I'll tell you though, while it is hard to crack that defensive wall they put up, as long as you are consistent with your message that you filed because you want to protect yourself without any intention of using it to "punish" with an unfair custody or property settlement arrangement, that you have no desire or intention of keeping her from her children, and that while you do still love her and would love to see the marriage restored, you will not accept her recent behavior any longer, and can't currently trust her as a result. If your actions are consistent with that message, then her initial interpretation of an attack will fade and she will open up again, only by then you will have earned her respect and she'll realize she can't play around anymore, one way or the other.

So I understand your fear and concern that you could unintentionally "push" her off onto the wrong side of the fence, you shouldn't assume that she would stay there.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with Nucking Futs' assertion that her friends will stop sharing with you her mental state if you file for divorce, unless they too believe you are doing so as an attack. If they are at all intelligent, I would hope they could understand why you would be doing it, and remembering that she brought this upon herself. If they take her side though, then yeah, that would end. When I filed for D from my wife for similar reasons, some of her close friends with whom I had no existing relationship certainly turned strictly to her "her side" because all they knew/heard was her interpretation of the events, but nearly all of our mutual friends or her friends who were somewhat intelligent with a decent moral compass, did not.



FamilyMan15 said:


> I actually appreciate your thought process here. But all of your scenarios assume a non-sincere intent. Obviously, she is not above lying, but what if the confusion is genuine? I'm still going forward with assume she's not being genuine, but I need to allow for the possibility that she is.


Fair point. I think ultimately you are searching for the scenario that is most likely to produce your desired result. It seems like you agree that most of us here are correct in our interpretations (enough for you to "assume she's not being genuine"), so while I certainly understand your wanting to allow for the possibility that we are all wrong by leaving open a small path for her to take if she is being genuine, I think you should be careful to make sure that leaving open that small path isn't going to damage or render your "best odds" strategy from potentially being successful.

I hope that makes sense? So where it is possible to leave open that path without putting what you already know is the strategy that will mostly likely result in a positive outcome, go ahead and do so, but if that strategy is put at risk, you might need to just make a decision and commit to it.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Nucking Futs said:


> That will end when you file for divorce.


right. I'm the good guy everyone wants to help right now.


----------



## SadSamIAm

FamilyMan15 said:


> I'm meeting with a lawyer tomorrow to get prepared. Sunday, we are going to evaluate where she is and from there I'll decide what to do next. My state doesn't have legal separations and filling for divorce would definitely put her in defense mode. I don't think it would prompt any other action beside trying to "win" the divorce. *Her friends* are keeping my informed with her mental state and, at least at this point, everything seems legit.


If these are HER friends and not your friends, you need to be careful as to how you process the information they are providing. They will be telling you what SHE WANTS YOU TO HEAR!


----------



## barcodelabelhere

She has to do a lot of thinking and inward-looking. Figuring out who you are and what makes you happy is a hard and scary thing to do sometimes. She needs time and likely counselling. For me, I always sort of knew there was something different in me, but I dated guys until after college. Then I finally accepted that I couldn't force myself to be what I was 'supposed' to be, because that wasn't me.

What's more important to me, though, is you. On some levels, 'well, she's gay' would be a lot easier to accept and process as a BS. But even that involves some level of dishonesty - not to the extent of the cheating, obviously, but she wasn't completely honest with herself and with you even before the cheating. 

You're a very good person for giving her the space to figure it out. But you have to make sure that you are okay while you're doing it. And you probably have to realize that this is her decision, and it can't be on a timeline. 

And...if she does eventually decide that she wants to be with men...you absolutely do not have to take her back. She has made a whole whack of selfish, dishonest decisions. She may want to be with men, but that man does not have to be you.


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> Update:
> 
> This last weekend (Super Bowl weekend) iy really became evident to me, that while a week ago she had said that I was the one that she wanted and did break up with / sever contact with the OW, she really was still very conflicted about what she wanted and who she was. She was very resistant to any type of affection and was generally cold. I think thats to be expected given the situation, but it's too hard given the situation to live with someone who doesn't know if they want to be there. Plus, she didn't really have the time and space to figure it out (and there wasn't strong motivation to do so sine she was home with her family). Basically, I think that when she left last time, she came back in a day and a half because she missed the children not because she was sure of what she wanted.
> 
> So I strongly suggested that she take more time alone to figure things out and she agreed. So she's temporarily moved out and is living at a friends empty vacation condo. She's said she is not going to contact the OW (or me for that matter) until she's figured things out (and this has been reinforced by her friends that know the situation). I believe that's her intention, but regardless if she does or not, she's not coming home until she's ready to commit 100%. I communicated all this in a very supportive safe way - I just wanted her to have the space to figure this out vs. I was kicking her out and I think she felt it was a positive move on my part.
> 
> We've set up a kids visitation plan where she can see them several times this week but most of the time if off on her own. We are going to evaluate this weekend next steps. I anticipate this taking a while, but I think we'll take it week by week for now.
> 
> If it does end up going longer than this week (which seems very likely - I'm thinking this will be a several month thing), we'll tell the kids what's happening at a high level and go public with friends and family for more support.
> 
> I am still hopeful, but less so than in the beginning. This is still a big internal conflict for her ("am I a lesbian?" "in what lifestyle will I be happy long term etc") but hopefully the space will bring her some clarity or at least a resolution. One thing that is frustrating is that a lot of the friend support she is getting is just emotional support ("I'll love you either way" or "you owe it to yourself to figure this out" etc) which is valuable, but no one seems to be asking good critical questions to really help her like "this seems really out of character for you, is there more to this?" or "are you really attracted to women in general or just this one woman (which seems to be the case)?" or "most likely this affair won't end up being a long term relationship. are you ok with living a lesbian lifestyle with a different woman, etc". These are the types of questions would ask of a good friend. But, I can't control any of that, so I have to let it go.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm working on me and executing the 180 plan for the relationship during this separation. I'm starting to prepare myself for moving on alone and have talked to a lawyer to I am prepared for the worst.
> 
> I'll see her for the first time since she left again tonight at one of our kid's athletic practice for a couple hours. Hopefully I'll be able to stick to the 180 and be cool.


I am sorry it has gotten to this point. While I've been tough with you on this thread with a purpose in mind, I was really rooting for it to work out.

Protect yourself. You have a life to live and you need to make sure your 'worse case scenario' plan is in place. God's speed


----------



## wmn1

FamilyMan15 said:


> One thing that I could use advice on is just dealing with the day to day emotions typical of the first several weeks after discovery.
> 
> The emotions are just flooring me and I feel like I am just spiraling down. The affair and situation is always on my mind and it's very hard to focus on anything else. It doesn't help that my job has lots of idle time perfect for neurotically thinking about things.
> 
> I'm just focusing on making it through the next hour and really trying to not dwell on the negative thoughts, but that it easier said than done. I know the pain will go away eventually, but how do I deal with it in the meantime?


I don't want to sound like a freak but see a hypnotist, a very good one and respected. Years ago, I was involved on the job (I am a cop) where there was one incident I just couldn't get over. I would wake up at 2 in the morning stressed, lacked sleep, etc.. I saw a hypnotist, one of the best. Within 3 weeks, I was able to compartmentalize things, I WAS STILL ME, and they taught me some of the best stress relaxation methods I could ever find. Now the incident is clear in my past. 

If you can't do this, then produce CDs with soft songs and learn how to meditate and deep breathe. Trust me, it works and even if you ultimately reconcile, it will help you with triggers


----------



## wmn1

Chaparral said:


> Is nice she didn't make any effort to reconnect with you, you need to go on the assumption she isn't coming back. Further, it may influence her to your benefit to let her see you and the kids can be fine without her. She also needs to know there are plenty of women out there looking for a good man.


agreed !!!


----------



## wmn1

ButtPunch said:


> This is good advice. All part of the 180. Be cheerful, look sharp when around her. Fake it if you have to. Weight lifting will help like Chap said. Find the energy to do it.
> 
> What I mean by cake eating. She hasn't faced any consequences for her cheating yet. She knows she can come back to you when she wants. She is now going to pursue her affair from her bachelor pad with you on the back burner in her mind. IMO, despite what JLD says, I think you are the only one hurting here.
> 
> I know I can be blunt, but I am rooting for you.


I agree !!!!!!

She may be pursuing the OW and while it's not the nice thing to say, you have to keep that in mind


----------



## wmn1

ButtPunch said:


> I don't know if the OP has revealed his real name on his thread but if he hasn't I would remove it.



no it was probably PM


----------



## wmn1

happyman64 said:


> FM
> 
> Chap is right as well as a few others.
> 
> Stop being a nice guy.
> 
> So you are giving her time. Great. With that time comes consequences.
> 
> Go see an attorney and legalize your separation.
> 
> If it was me I would file for divorce. I am pro marriage.
> 
> But your wife's lies, affair and confusion are on her.
> 
> I think her being handed divorce papers will help her decide.
> 
> And until she feels the loss of you and the marriage starting she will not feel any consequences or pressure.
> 
> Stop being nice.
> 
> HM


wow Happy, you sound like me :lol:

but you are right as well


----------



## wmn1

cdbaker said:


> So much here to process...
> 
> For starters... I get the feeling that the entire dynamic of the situation has change quite a bit here. Where as before it felt a lot more like this was a matter of convincing you that she was still lying/can't be trusted, that she might still be plotting to run off with your kids, that you need to defend yourself asap and your being in denial about it all, to now it seems like you're a bit more accepting of the situation, not really overly concerned about how the situation turns out in the end and accepting of that reality either way. It also sounds like you trust her now, maybe not in her being truthful with you (I'm positive she's still not being 100% truthful with you) but maybe in that you trust that she won't do anything legally speaking to screw you over. Like take the kids and run away, or press for a 100% full custody and say/do anything to paint you as a bad dad, etc. Is any of that true? Only you can judge her potential to stab you in the back further and the manner in which she can do so, and unfortunately you are a very biased judge in this scenario, but we are also a very biased jury with only one side of the story. Honestly, at the very least however, you should still be meeting with a lawyer to have a case ready, a divorce and emergency temporary custody petition ready.
> 
> Next, I agree with others that you are still being too much of a pushover nice guy. You're still just reinforcing in her mind that she is fully in control, that you'll go along with anything she says/wants and be fully compliant. She still doesn't have any genuine remorse for what she has done, and her "I might be a lesbian" nonsense is still allowing her to get away with it from you and her friends. This is all playing out in exactly such a way as to most benefit her from a guilt/blame angle, and you're actively encouraging it whether you realize it or not. Remember, if she just cheated on you, then the blame, shame, guilt, etc. is all 100% her fault/responsibility. If she cheated on you as a result of the possibility that she may be a lesbian, then both of you are just the unfortunate victims of her 2+ decades of confusion and instead of receiving guilt/shame/humiliation from others over her actions, she'll instead have their sympathy and support.
> 
> Here's the key though, the *only way* she can sell that farce of a story is if she can drag this out for a long while. Why? Imagine the alternatives:
> 
> 1. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught, but then quickly returns to her husband/family to recommit. Her ploy won't be very believable in this case, because if she really might be a lesbian, then it would make sense that she'd need a lot of time and probably therapy to figure it all out for sure and then make decisions. Not doing so indicates that the lesbian stuff was just a nonsense excuse or, if she _really_ thought she might be a lesbian, that she's just going back into denial by returning to you so quickly and risking betraying you again (all your mutual friends would warn you of this and be distrustful of her). This isn't an ideal result for her.
> 
> 2. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught and then quickly leaves you to be with the other woman. Then, even those who believe that she might indeed be a lesbian because of the confidently advanced step she's taken in leaving you will question her for having made this decision so quickly without being honest with her husband or giving him fair warning to process, or first seeing a therapist or even MC to determine if it's the right course of action. She'll be viewed as a cheater who, even if she was facing an unfortunate sexual identity crisis while married, handling it in an incredibly cruel and destructive way. This isn't ideal for her either.
> 
> 3. She plays the "I might be a lesbian!" sympathy card when she's caught, then convinces and friends/family that she needs time to process through these conflicting feelings and emotions she's having. She offers petty remorse to her husband, because that's to be expected for spouse in the unfortunate position of being married to a potential homosexual. Maybe she see's a therapist a couple times, she isn't concerned with concealing the situation from others (knowing that it will all come out in one way or the other anyway). She receives the love, sympathy and support of everyone during her "trying time" and gets the freedom to do as she pleases, including possibly (likely) remaining in touch with the OW without accountability. Then after a long while of doing these "responsible" steps for someone dealing with a sexual identity crisis, she...
> A. ...decides to come home to her husband/family and recommit to the marriage. Most family/friends are pleased with this, they know that trust will need to be rebuilt but they feel that she's handled the "unfortunate situation" in the best way possible, ensuring their continued love/sympathy/support. This is an ideal result for her if she genuinely realizes that she is not a lesbian, as we all suspect.
> B. ...decides she wants to continue her selfish fantasy world a bit longer and choose to go be with the other woman. She might even sell it as a 2nd step to her "process of figuring out who she really is" by saying she needs time with the other woman without the secrecy to see if that's what she really wants. Whether she plays it that way or not, most family/friends might be somewhat disappointed that the marriage is over (not that "she walked away from the marriage, implying fault, but "that the marriage is over" implying it's really no ones fault) and will try to offer their love/support to both spouses in order to make the divorce (or extended separation) as amicable and smooth as possible. This is an ideal result for her if she genuinely thinks she might be a lesbian (which none of us believe) or just wants to take advantage of you even longer to enjoy herself more.
> 
> 
> See, ultimately the best case scenario for her is one where she gets what she wants and doesn't have to deal with the scorn/guilt/shame of her friends/family. If she can convince you of all this as well, then that is just a bonus. In either of the latter two A & B scenarios, she gets to walk away blameless as a sympathetic figure with the love/support/sympathy of her family and friends, with minimal consequences, having been able to have her cake and eat it too all along the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. She has your support to be doing what she is doing now. She knows you will gladly accept her back with open arms at any time. She knows you still love her and will continue to love her. She knows that you haven't cut her off in any way, and believes confidently that you won't do so. She's facing none of the shame/scorn of your family and friends, most of whom you have protected this information from. She see's the kids as much as she wants to (she's not begging for more time with them while you turn her down after all, is she?), while enjoying complete freedom and zero accountability, all with your permission and support. She is getting every bit of "cake" she could possibly want from you. Honestly I'm not trying to be mean here,*but what "cake" do you think you are withholding from her???*


wow CD. This is definitely one of the best posts in this thread. Good job


----------



## Suspecting2014

FamilyMan15 said:


> barcodelabelhere said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife is figuring out where she is on that spectrum, and it's a hard thing to do.
> 
> She may be gay. She may be bi-curious. She may be straight and this one woman, for whatever reason, knocked her off kilter.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that's the fundamental problem right now. It's not about a label. It's about figuring out what she really wants in order to be happy long term. How does she figure that out? It think the "knocked her off kilter" is a great way to describe what she expresses that she is feeling.
> 
> She said recently that her head wants me, but her heart is pulling her another direction and she's trying to reconcile that. Which is right?
Click to expand...

She is not in love with you any more!

This is not a matter of sex orienation!

Try to think how would it be if OW were a man...

Facts:

She is a cheater
She is not in love with you
She is in love with someone else ( no matter gender)
She is using the gay thing as an excuse

Just let her go

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...et-them-go.html#/forumsite/20516/topics/24796

Good luck


----------



## Q tip

FamilyMan15 said:


> I agree. Cheating is cheating. The only issue it presents is if reconciliation is even possible. That's the part we are stuck in right now. The am I gay question has put her in a limbo. She doesn't want to reconcile if ultimately it's the wrong path for her personally.


IMO...

It's only a question for you, limbo is only yours and of your making (not hers BTW) and enables her to manipulate the PC Card and enjoy cake openly.

Lying? She's cheating. Telling the truth? She cheating. PC is a societal disease. Merely Attempts to force you think someone else's way. It's mass manipulation. Indoctrination if you will. I never buy it.

If she's not a crying, snot bubbling mass of humanity groveling at your feet full of remorse, she's not marital material or worthy of an LTR with you. Soul searching? What a joker.

Filing for D and having her served will show her the only consequences she's ever faced for her actions. Then and only then will she wake the f up and look in the mirror. Then she'll respond to reality. Be prepared for that.

Space? Means time and freedom away from you to play.


----------



## manfromlamancha

FM, really sorry to have you here and thought I would chime in with my tuppence worth:

You are dealing with three issues here:


her cheating/your relationship AND;


her sexuality which she is linking to her cheating AND;


what you want and are prepared to put up with.

Lets deal with point 1 first - her cheating:


You had an "awesome" first 15 years of marriage and then she went out and cheated. As simple as that.

You have tried to rationalise why she cheated and have come up with she was having "an identity crisis" and this in turn was because she "lost her job". You also threw in for good measure "conflicts in priorities" again relating to her job. I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.

You still do not know why she cheated. There is more to this than meets the eye.

You do not know if this is her first rodeo. You seem fairly certain that you don't have the entire truth - something that everyone on this thread seems to agree with.

You do know that she can lie quite effectively and without care or regard for you or anyone else for that matter.

I hope you know that the cheating is down to her - responsibility for problems in a marriage may be shared 50/50 but cheating is always down to the moral fibre of the cheater.

The question is "what are you going to do about her cheating?" - rug sweep it, try and justify it by saying she is not sure if she is a lesbian or blame it on her employment problems. Or are you going to deal with it just as if she had cheated with another man (or men)?

Also is she capable of cheating again ? The jury is out on that but I would say based on what has been said so far, a resounding YES!

You need to be hurt, angry, upset etc about her cheating and protect you and yours as such against this.


Now lets look at point 2, her sexuality:


She says she has been questioning her sexuality for the last year - has she said why? What has she noticed in the last year that made her question her sexuality ? Was it attraction to one other woman ? Many other women ? Or was it a loss of attraction to you ? Or men in general ? Has she said what made her question it ? I would not accept being unhappy in a marriage as being the sole reason.

She has actively sought out relationships with other women (from what you have said) on dating sites. This might suggest that she was looking for "something different". Something "safe". Something she thought "you might not mind too much". Or to scratch an itch ? Or to see if she is bisexual (would not be the case if she has lost attraction to men) ? Or to see if she is a lesbian ? Or for a bit of fun ?

As JLD has said she may be somewhere on the spectrum of bisexuality, something that seems to be more fluid in women than in men. If this is the case, should she not have discussed this with you first ?

There is no easy way to explore this without professional help which is what she should have got/should be getting.

None of this should have caused her to cheat!



Finally on to the subject of what you want and are prepared to put up with:


So far you have attempted to justify her cheating because you appear to want her back at any cost. If this is the case, you are doomed to a life of sadness and this will not be good for anyone including the kids.

You appear to have your head in the sand when it comes to dealing with the cheating. You need to wake up and take definitive steps to push the agenda that you would like to drive. The first one is to get to the whole truth. The second is to get her to be truly remorseful for cheating.

You appear willing to reconcile no matter what.

You need to protect yourself and your kids which is something that you appear to be starting to do - that is good.

You need to take steps to see if she is playing you and keeping you dangling. File for divorce and see what she says (and when you do you have to be ready to lose her if need be - you can always stop divorce proceedings later).

The cake-eating that people are referring to includes driving her own agenda while she might be stringing you along.


I really do hope it works out for you. One way or another. I have got to say that she seems too far gone with the affair with the woman for her to come back to you and be the same as it was before. You need to see this.

You need to be firm on what you are prepared to tolerate going forward. And while kids are important, my advice is don't stay together just for the kids else you will be sending them completely the wrong message.

Getting to some of the answers to questions raised in my bullet points will help you going forward and making the right decisions.

If I were to summarise what I said above, it would be:


You don't know why she cheated or even the extent of her cheating and you need to deal with her cheating as cheating.

You need to come to terms with her sexuality and not hope for it to just go away. She likes women (at least one woman).

You need to be more sure of what you want and are prepared to put up with and do.

Best of luck to you and your family (as you can tell, I do like my bullet points!)


----------



## Q tip

Nice MFL!

You might as well add, cheating with other women and men as a possibility. Maybe have been going on for years. One never knows the true extent... She could have plans thought out already and for quite some time.

Phase I is socializing the hubby.


----------



## Chaparral

Does her parents know what's really going on with this separation?


----------



## sidney2718

barcodelabelhere said:


> FM,
> 
> I haven't made it through your whole thread yet, but I've made it through most of it. I'm sorry you're here. I don't have any advice on the major part of all of this, which is that your wife cheated on you and you are trying to recover as best you can.
> 
> However, I am an out gay woman (here because my partner cheated on me with a 'straight' woman). So I have some insight on the sexuality part of things. If you have any questions on that front, I can try to help as best I can. I agree with all of the people who have said cheating is cheating - it absolutely is. But the sexuality component of it is a whole other layer. Let me know if I can help.


You can indeed help. I see this as infidelity with a major overlay of the wife trying to figure out her sexuality. Is it possible that she's not so much in love with the OW as she is in awe (if that is the right word) of her for showing her a whole new world.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

The below is post 115 from this thread. It's now post 745 and nothing's really changed.

OP just sits and waits for the treat to come his way. Sure, he made her move out for up to a week, so she could decide whithout the distraction of him waiting for her to decide, but nothing's really changed.

The hope is that this time apart will help her to decide if she wants to come back home, hand out the kibble, pat him on the head and say "good boy". But the sad reality is she's more likely trying to figure out the best way to tell the OP that it's over. That it has been for some time and she just never could bring herself to to tell him, so she decided on an exit affair. Of course, under the guise of trying to figure out if she's bi/lez.

When she finally does leave(maybe not this time, but eventually), I'll bet that she's back to dating men within 2 years.

Still so sad.



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> In reading the OP's responses I get a vision of a lap pet in competition.
> 
> One that was used to being the only one getting treats from it's master. That is until one day, when another pet showed up. Then it all changed.
> 
> Now he's competing with the other one every time the owner looks his way. He sits a little faster, barks a little louder and rolls over a little further to out shine. Doing anything and everything to just get those treats to come his way. And even if the other pet get's the next treat, he'll just sit there patiently, waiting. Hoping that he'll get something before the treat bag goes back into the cupboard again...
> 
> Sad.


----------



## bfree

Suspecting2014 said:


> She is not in love with you any more!
> 
> This is not a matter of sex orienation!
> 
> Try to think how would it be if OW were a man...
> 
> Facts:
> 
> She is a cheater
> She is not in love with you
> She is in love with someone else ( no matter gender)
> She is using the gay thing as an excuse
> 
> Just let her go
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...et-them-go.html#/forumsite/20516/topics/24796
> 
> Good luck


You know FM, it really does come down to this. Sexual orientation aside she isn't in love with you anymore. If she were she wouldn't need time to decide now would she? In my opinion you are much too focused on her, her confusion, her decision. You need to let her go and focus on yourself. Even if you and your wife were to reconcile somewhere down the road, a completely new relationship would need to be built. She is already a different person. You are already a different person. When she broke the marital contract she severed your relationship. You are no longer a couple. You are two individuals. She is on her journey. You need to start on yours. If your paths cross in the future so be it. But you need to chart your own course from this point forward. Your anxiety comes from a lack of control as far as your wife is concerned. Give up that desire to control. Stop holding on to that last tether binding the two of you together. It's a phantom feeling, she already amputated it. The best thing you can do is to let her go and concentrate on the one thing within your control, yourself.


----------



## FamilyMan15

bfree said:


> You know FM, it really does come down to this. Sexual orientation aside she isn't in love with you anymore. If she were she wouldn't need time to decide now would she? In my opinion you are much too focused on her, her confusion, her decision. You need to let her go and focus on yourself. Even if you and your wife were to reconcile somewhere down the road, a completely new relationship would need to be built. She is already a different person. You are already a different person. When she broke the marital contract she severed your relationship. You are no longer a couple. You are two individuals. She is on her journey. You need to start on yours. If your paths cross in the future so be it. But you need to chart your own course from this point forward. Your anxiety comes from a lack of control as far as your wife is concerned. Give up that desire to control. Stop holding on to that last tether binding the two of you together. It's a phantom feeling, she already amputated it. The best thing you can do is to let her go and concentrate on the one thing within your control, yourself.


That's hard to read, you could be definitely right. She's given me the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line, but there still are feelings there for both of us. I'll have to chew on this more. But my plan is basically to move forward on my own anyway, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised at some point. I can't keep waiting around.


----------



## FamilyMan15

sidney2718 said:


> You can indeed help. I see this as infidelity with a major overlay of the wife trying to figure out her sexuality. Is it possible that she's not so much in love with the OW as she is in awe (if that is the right word) of her for showing her a whole new world.


Could be awe. I know the emotional connection was strong.


----------



## FamilyMan15

Chaparral said:


> Does her parents know what's really going on with this separation?


Well, she's not close at all with her remaining parent. Her sister is the only close family and she knows everything (I highly encouraged my wife to reach out to her for support). My family doesn't know anything yet, but that's likely to change next week.


----------



## FamilyMan15

manfromlamancha said:


> FM, really sorry to have you here and thought I would chime in with my tuppence worth:
> 
> You are dealing with three issues here:
> 
> 
> her cheating/your relationship AND;
> 
> 
> her sexuality which she is linking to her cheating AND;
> 
> 
> what you want and are prepared to put up with.
> 
> Lets deal with point 1 first - her cheating:
> 
> 
> You had an "awesome" first 15 years of marriage and then she went out and cheated. As simple as that.
> 
> You have tried to rationalise why she cheated and have come up with she was having "an identity crisis" and this in turn was because she "lost her job". You also threw in for good measure "conflicts in priorities" again relating to her job. I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.
> 
> You still do not know why she cheated. There is more to this than meets the eye.
> 
> You do not know if this is her first rodeo. You seem fairly certain that you don't have the entire truth - something that everyone on this thread seems to agree with.
> 
> You do know that she can lie quite effectively and without care or regard for you or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> I hope you know that the cheating is down to her - responsibility for problems in a marriage may be shared 50/50 but cheating is always down to the moral fibre of the cheater.
> 
> The question is "what are you going to do about her cheating?" - rug sweep it, try and justify it by saying she is not sure if she is a lesbian or blame it on her employment problems. Or are you going to deal with it just as if she had cheated with another man (or men)?
> 
> Also is she capable of cheating again ? The jury is out on that but I would say based on what has been said so far, a resounding YES!
> 
> You need to be hurt, angry, upset etc about her cheating and protect you and yours as such against this.
> 
> 
> Now lets look at point 2, her sexuality:
> 
> 
> She says she has been questioning her sexuality for the last year - has she said why? What has she noticed in the last year that made her question her sexuality ? Was it attraction to one other woman ? Many other women ? Or was it a loss of attraction to you ? Or men in general ? Has she said what made her question it ? I would not accept being unhappy in a marriage as being the sole reason.
> 
> She has actively sought out relationships with other women (from what you have said) on dating sites. This might suggest that she was looking for "something different". Something "safe". Something she thought "you might not mind too much". Or to scratch an itch ? Or to see if she is bisexual (would not be the case if she has lost attraction to men) ? Or to see if she is a lesbian ? Or for a bit of fun ?
> 
> As JLD has said she may be somewhere on the spectrum of bisexuality, something that seems to be more fluid in women than in men. If this is the case, should she not have discussed this with you first ?
> 
> There is no easy way to explore this without professional help which is what she should have got/should be getting.
> 
> None of this should have caused her to cheat!
> 
> 
> 
> Finally on to the subject of what you want and are prepared to put up with:
> 
> 
> So far you have attempted to justify her cheating because you appear to want her back at any cost. If this is the case, you are doomed to a life of sadness and this will not be good for anyone including the kids.
> 
> You appear to have your head in the sand when it comes to dealing with the cheating. You need to wake up and take definitive steps to push the agenda that you would like to drive. The first one is to get to the whole truth. The second is to get her to be truly remorseful for cheating.
> 
> You appear willing to reconcile no matter what.
> 
> You need to protect yourself and your kids which is something that you appear to be starting to do - that is good.
> 
> You need to take steps to see if she is playing you and keeping you dangling. File for divorce and see what she says (and when you do you have to be ready to lose her if need be - you can always stop divorce proceedings later).
> 
> The cake-eating that people are referring to includes driving her own agenda while she might be stringing you along.
> 
> 
> I really do hope it works out for you. One way or another. I have got to say that she seems too far gone with the affair with the woman for her to come back to you and be the same as it was before. You need to see this.
> 
> You need to be firm on what you are prepared to tolerate going forward. And while kids are important, my advice is don't stay together just for the kids else you will be sending them completely the wrong message.
> 
> Getting to some of the answers to questions raised in my bullet points will help you going forward and making the right decisions.
> 
> If I were to summarise what I said above, it would be:
> 
> 
> You don't know why she cheated or even the extent of her cheating and you need to deal with her cheating as cheating.
> 
> You need to come to terms with her sexuality and not hope for it to just go away. She likes women (at least one woman).
> 
> You need to be more sure of what you want and are prepared to put up with and do.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your family (as you can tell, I do like my bullet points!)


Lots of good points and question (most I don't have answers to). Thanks for the time in putting this together. I need to digest your thoughts for a while, but I appreciate your approach here.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Familyman

*How long are you willing to have your emotions about to erupt like a volcano while you wait and suffer so she can figure out what she is? *One of your recent posts tells us that you are really suffering emotionally.

If you are able to endure your emotional hell for weeks and months then who can argue with you.

On the other hand, *you have to look out for you right now so that you can be a positive for you and your children*. You are either very understanding of your wife or you are compromising because of your fears.

You say that your wife is confused about who she is. Did you know that a strong jolt by a strong husband can help a wife get unconfused? Let’s say that you decide that you are going to only concentrate on you and your children and file for divorce. Sometimes that can help a confused person get unconfused real fast!

No matter what your wife is; gay, bisexual, bi-curious, depressed and vulnerable, she was not confused when she made the decision to betray you and her children. *Betrayal is betrayed no matter what sexual orientation you are.* Without revenge and with you suffering the temporary pain, you can divorce your wife and start building a life that does not have you in emotional limbo not knowing what the next day will bring in terms of you being replaced and rejected by your wife.

*The divorce may help your wife get unconfused and will get you out of emotional limbo hell.* If your wife gets unconfused and decides that she was bi-curious then she can do the heavy lifting to see if you will take her back. That puts you in the driver’s seat where you should be. If your wife finds out that she is gay or bi-sexual then you can maybe become friends and work at co-parenting.

Divorce is a big step but most men I know will not settle for being rejected and replaced or sharing their wife with another sex partner. You will have to decide what you want for YOU before you implode emotionally because your wife has you in limbo. *Do you have a time frame for getting out of limbo?*


----------



## Suspecting2014

FM,

You need to see beyond the sexual orientation and treat this disregarding this matter.

Your wife is deep into the fog, and at this point I believe she is not aware that the attraction to OW is based on this fantasy as a scape from her problems and maybe she will realize it in the long run. The thing is that she must became aware of it by her self not by you or her family pointing it out.

There are there are 3 things that you can use the bring her back to reality.

EXPOSE. Expose to the Affair Partner Spouse kills the affair. I believe that OW is single so at this is point less. Expose to family and friends at this moment could work against you. So not an option.

NO CONTACT. As long as your wife is talking to OW the fog will remain. As you can't control this and probably your wife is talking to OW this will not take place.

DIVORCE. Nothing slaps a WS out of fog to reality faster than face consequences. IMO your wifes Fog is related to be with OW is fantasy land, where everything is perfect and don't have to deal with daily issues and realted to her new career.

Note that everytime you act like a doormat you push her into OW arms. At this point all you have done is showing her that there are not consequences and you will be waiting until she decides what to do. You said in other post that she is not cake eating, but she is. As long as you are willing to take her back while she is deciding to be whith you (fopr the kids) os her "truth love" she is cake eating. Remember that she is a cheater and cheaters lie (for self preservation, damage control, etc) so you dont know fo real if she is seeing OW.

IMO filing for D is your best chance at this point, beside is the same thing you would do if she picks OW.

Telle her that you are looking for legal advise and she will be serve in a few weeks. Explain her that:


You are only taking her back if she is in love with you (this is very important to teach our kids to have a healty relation and that being with someona that doenst love them is not an option). You deserve better than be the colateral partner in her family.

She cheated, this is a big issue as she must 100% into R that means be willing to help you heal and doing a alot of heavy lifthing.

And the must important thing, you need to move on with your life, for you and more important your kids sake. You deserve better than to be in limbo waiting to be her plan B.

Ask her to just contact you for issues related to the kids and, when the moment comes to settle asset divicion, etc. Do 180 hard and try to not see her.
I belive this is your last shot but not hold hope as this is long shot. Keep the door open as long as you bare but start moving on and dont stop. 

Remeber that D is a process that you can stop anytime so dont be affaid to file.

Do it for you, man up and stop being a doormat. Show your kids that they deserve to be in a healty relation where love and respect are shared, not begged.

Good luck


----------



## bfree

FamilyMan15 said:


> That's hard to read, you could be definitely right. She's given me the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line, but there still are feelings there for both of us. I'll have to chew on this more. But my plan is basically to move forward on my own anyway, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised at some point. I can't keep waiting around.


You asked earlier how you can deal with your anxiety over this situation. Your anxiety will end when you know in your heart that you will be okay without her. When you know with all your being that your life will be at least as good if not better without her than with her then you'll feel much better about things. And please understand that she has to take the lead if any reconciliation is to take place. You need to start moving on without her. It's up to her to give you a reason to change course.


----------



## Chaparral

I think the tipping point was when she confessed to going on hook up sites to find her girl friend. How many women did she go through? Do you know the other woman's name, what she looks like?

At first I thought this could be saved, now I think you should find a woman that has better character, morals, integrity, and doesn't leave a knife in your back. In other words, someone that cares and you can trust. Your wife has none of these qualities.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Chaparral said:


> I think the tipping point was when she confessed to going on hook up sites to find her girl friend. How many women did she go through? Do you know the other woman's name, what she looks like?
> 
> At first I thought this could be saved, now I think you should find a woman that has better character, morals, integrity, and doesn't leave a knife in your back. In other words, someone that cares and you can trust. Your wife has none of these qualities.


Like I stated earlier in this thread about a several weeks ago. His wife is selfish and only cared about her personal fulfillment to the detriment of her husband and family. Why the OP is willing to sit there and give his wife all this power to decide his future is beyond me.


----------



## ButtPunch

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Like I stated earlier in this thread about a several weeks ago. His wife is selfish and only cared about her personal fulfillment to the detriment of her husband and family. Why the OP is willing to sit there and give his wife all this power to decide his future is beyond me.


He's holding on to the dream. The life he thought he had.


----------



## wmn1

Best post of the thread #741 Manfromlamancha.

If I had anything to add, he covered it x 10


----------



## Q tip

Sorry, OP.

You really are pining for a relationship that is gone forever. You are in the mourning phase now. Disbelief. It will pass. Accepting it, divorcing and moving on are the next steps.

You will find happiness. She is setting you free to find it. Just not with her. She will likely regret what she's done. Maybe.

I am sorry.


----------



## badmemory

bfree said:


> And please understand that she has to take the lead if any reconciliation is to take place. You need to start moving on without her. It's up to her to give you a reason to change course.


That pretty much sums up what most posters are trying to tell you.

Instead, it seems as if you're using the "plan A" approach that Hartley espouses at MarriageBuilders. Maybe your nice guy approach will work to a degree and she'll return to your home. But at what emotional cost to you? After she's been back for a while and you get past the hysterical bonding; that's when it may start to take it's toll on you. The regret for not testing her remorse, the loss of self respect, the resentment that never completely goes away, the plan B stigma.

At least that's what happened to me. Because I made some of the mistakes that you're making; except for one - I didn't allow her to decide on her own. I made the decision. If you let your wife make that decision; IMHO, that will further decrease your chances for a successful R.


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## FamilyMan15

badmemory said:


> That pretty much sums up what most posters are trying to tell you.
> 
> Instead, it seems as if you're using the "plan A" approach that Hartley espouses at MarriageBuilders. Maybe your nice guy approach will work to a degree and she'll return to your home. But at what emotional cost to you? After she's been back for a while and you get past the hysterical bonding; that's when it may start to take it's toll on you. The regret for not testing her remorse, the loss of self respect, the resentment that never completely goes away, the plan B stigma.
> 
> At least that's what happened to me. Because I made some of the mistakes that you're making; except for one - I didn't allow her to decide on her own. I made the decision. If you let your wife make that decision; IMHO, that will further decrease your chances for a successful R.


To be honest, that is where I am now. She's out figuring herself out and I'm moving on as though she'll never come back. If she want's to reconcile, she's going to have to initiate it and show she is sincere before we move forward. Once I decided that, it's been emotionally easier. Only thing I didn't do is file divorce papers (even though it's been recommended) as that would 100% result in her trying to win the divorce.


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## ButtPunch

FamilyMan15 said:


> To be honest, that is where I am now. She's out figuring herself out and I'm moving on as though she'll never come back. If she want's to reconcile, she's going to have to initiate it and show she is sincere before we move forward. Once I decided that, it's been emotionally easier. Only thing I didn't do is file divorce papers (even though it's been recommended) as that would 100% result in her trying to win the divorce.


What does that mean win the divorce. He who files has the upper hand.

I think your WW will come back after her affair fizzles a year or two from now and want to play happy family all over again. I think she thinks she has that much control over you. You will not be able to respect yourself if this occurs. You might get your unremorseful cheater wife back but at what cost and you will only keep her until she experiences another itch she wants to scratch. 




> She's out figuring herself out and *I'm moving on as though she'll never come back.*


FM.....Tell me exactly how you are moving on as if she'll never come back. From what I have read.....You are at home pining.


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## Q tip

By dating younger hotter babes...!


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## ButtPunch

Q tip said:


> By dating younger hotter babes...!


I bet she'd find herself pretty quick if that happened.


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## Q tip

ButtPunch said:


> I bet she'd find herself pretty quick if that happened.


Yep. Otherwise he's pushing rope.


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## TRy

manfromlamancha said:


> FM, really sorry to have you here and thought I would chime in with my tuppence worth:
> 
> You are dealing with three issues here:
> 
> 
> her cheating/your relationship AND;
> 
> 
> her sexuality which she is linking to her cheating AND;
> 
> 
> what you want and are prepared to put up with.
> 
> Lets deal with point 1 first - her cheating:
> 
> 
> You had an "awesome" first 15 years of marriage and then she went out and cheated. As simple as that.
> 
> You have tried to rationalise why she cheated and have come up with she was having "an identity crisis" and this in turn was because she "lost her job". You also threw in for good measure "conflicts in priorities" again relating to her job. I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.
> 
> You still do not know why she cheated. There is more to this than meets the eye.
> 
> You do not know if this is her first rodeo. You seem fairly certain that you don't have the entire truth - something that everyone on this thread seems to agree with.
> 
> You do know that she can lie quite effectively and without care or regard for you or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> I hope you know that the cheating is down to her - responsibility for problems in a marriage may be shared 50/50 but cheating is always down to the moral fibre of the cheater.
> 
> The question is "what are you going to do about her cheating?" - rug sweep it, try and justify it by saying she is not sure if she is a lesbian or blame it on her employment problems. Or are you going to deal with it just as if she had cheated with another man (or men)?
> 
> Also is she capable of cheating again ? The jury is out on that but I would say based on what has been said so far, a resounding YES!
> 
> You need to be hurt, angry, upset etc about her cheating and protect you and yours as such against this.
> 
> 
> Now lets look at point 2, her sexuality:
> 
> 
> She says she has been questioning her sexuality for the last year - has she said why? What has she noticed in the last year that made her question her sexuality ? Was it attraction to one other woman ? Many other women ? Or was it a loss of attraction to you ? Or men in general ? Has she said what made her question it ? I would not accept being unhappy in a marriage as being the sole reason.
> 
> She has actively sought out relationships with other women (from what you have said) on dating sites. This might suggest that she was looking for "something different". Something "safe". Something she thought "you might not mind too much". Or to scratch an itch ? Or to see if she is bisexual (would not be the case if she has lost attraction to men) ? Or to see if she is a lesbian ? Or for a bit of fun ?
> 
> As JLD has said she may be somewhere on the spectrum of bisexuality, something that seems to be more fluid in women than in men. If this is the case, should she not have discussed this with you first ?
> 
> There is no easy way to explore this without professional help which is what she should have got/should be getting.
> 
> None of this should have caused her to cheat!
> 
> 
> 
> Finally on to the subject of what you want and are prepared to put up with:
> 
> 
> So far you have attempted to justify her cheating because you appear to want her back at any cost. If this is the case, you are doomed to a life of sadness and this will not be good for anyone including the kids.
> 
> You appear to have your head in the sand when it comes to dealing with the cheating. You need to wake up and take definitive steps to push the agenda that you would like to drive. The first one is to get to the whole truth. The second is to get her to be truly remorseful for cheating.
> 
> You appear willing to reconcile no matter what.
> 
> You need to protect yourself and your kids which is something that you appear to be starting to do - that is good.
> 
> You need to take steps to see if she is playing you and keeping you dangling. File for divorce and see what she says (and when you do you have to be ready to lose her if need be - you can always stop divorce proceedings later).
> 
> The cake-eating that people are referring to includes driving her own agenda while she might be stringing you along.
> 
> 
> I really do hope it works out for you. One way or another. I have got to say that she seems too far gone with the affair with the woman for her to come back to you and be the same as it was before. You need to see this.
> 
> You need to be firm on what you are prepared to tolerate going forward. And while kids are important, my advice is don't stay together just for the kids else you will be sending them completely the wrong message.
> 
> Getting to some of the answers to questions raised in my bullet points will help you going forward and making the right decisions.
> 
> If I were to summarise what I said above, it would be:
> 
> 
> You don't know why she cheated or even the extent of her cheating and you need to deal with her cheating as cheating.
> 
> You need to come to terms with her sexuality and not hope for it to just go away. She likes women (at least one woman).
> 
> You need to be more sure of what you want and are prepared to put up with and do.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your family (as you can tell, I do like my bullet points!)


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
I quoted this so that you will read it again.


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## TRy

FamilyMan15 said:


> She's given me the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line


 The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" line shows that she is deep in the affair fog, and that she is just another cheater using whatever excuse that she can to rationalize her affair. In this case her excuse is that she is bisexual; to that I say so what? Being bisexual has nothing to do with honoring your marriage vows to be faithful. As a bisexual the gender of the the affair partner does not matter, so stop focusing on the gender of the affair partner, and start treating this just like any other affair. If she leaves you for her current affair partner that happens this time to be a woman, as a bisexual that is also a cheater, there is nothing stopping her from one day later cheating on her current affair partner with a man. This is not about her being a bisexual. This is all about her being a cake eating cheater, and you should handle this accordingly. 



FamilyMan15 said:


> To be honest, that is where I am now. She's out figuring herself out and I'm moving on as though she'll never come back. If she want's to reconcile, she's going to have to initiate it and show she is sincere before we move forward.


 The statement above shows that you are not being honest with yourself. You cannot be "moving on as though she'll never come back", if you are so willing to take her back if should later decide that (at least for now) "she want's to reconcile" This shows her that you are willing to be her plan B. As long as this is true, why should she decide now who she wants instead of cake eat? If she has not already done so, she will be resuming her affair.


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## Q tip

Just take action. Bloody file for D!!! Do something! Now!

Poida is a free man today. He's so happy.


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## sidney2718

Suspecting2014 said:


> She is not in love with you any more!
> 
> This is not a matter of sex orienation!
> 
> Try to think how would it be if OW were a man...
> 
> Facts:
> 
> She is a cheater
> She is not in love with you
> She is in love with someone else ( no matter gender)
> She is using the gay thing as an excuse
> 
> Just let her go
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...et-them-go.html#/forumsite/20516/topics/24796
> 
> Good luck


I'd tend to agree with you except for one thing: what does SHE gain from all of this drama? She's risking her relationship with the woman she's in love with. And what is she using the gay thing as an excuse for?

If she feels as you outline, I expect that she'd be out the door and gone from the OP's life. Why is she sticking around?


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## sidney2718

Q tip said:


> If she's not a crying, snot bubbling mass of humanity groveling at your feet full of remorse, she's not marital material or worthy of an LTR with you. Soul searching? What a joker.


So that's the mistake so many long term married men made! They treated their wives as if they were human beings and not snotty groveling bubbling masses of womanhood.

And you wives out there, get with it. Learn how to bubble snot.


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## the guy

You need to see a lawyer and figure out what you guys are going to do with the kids.

It's not good for the kids to be with their mom when she is with any Tom, **** or Henrietta......

See if you can file some kind of moral clause that will keep the kids away from unhealthy activities your WW could be in or 'experimenting" with.

You also need to finacialy protect your self from your wife ringing up debt by filing the paper work. After all you are still liable!

In short ....you are still on the hook if your old lady really phucks up and screws up so bad that someone goes after you for both your assets to recoup any damage she does or gets into.


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## Chaparral

sidney2718 said:


> I'd tend to agree with you except for one thing: what does SHE gain from all of this drama? She's risking her relationship with the woman she's in love with. And what is she using the gay thing as an excuse for?
> 
> If she feels as you outline, I expect that she'd be out the door and gone from the OP's life. Why is she sticking around?


This assumes she has started telling the truth and is not still cheating. As has been pounded in our heads by thousands of cheaters stories on this site that's unlikely. She didn't even pretend she was interested in FM when she came home.


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## bfree

Chaparral said:


> This assumes she has started telling the truth and is not still cheating. As has been pounded in our heads by thousands of cheaters stories on this site that's unlikely. She didn't even pretend she was interested in FM when she came home.


Yes. Even though she was probably all "fogged up" I did think she would at least start to take some actions to move in the direction of reconciliation. But it seemed like she came back because that's what she thought she was supposed to do, not because she really wanted to. And it's that directionless indecision that gives me pause. If she were truly bisexual or bicurious she would make the choice to work on their marriage. She didn't do that. What that tells me is that her sexual identity question is not a roadblock but a cover for her to continue or to resume her relationship with the OW. And if she were truly gay she wouldn't have even entertained the idea of reconciling. I think she is just looking for a way to extricate herself from the marriage with the least amount of backlash on herself as possible. I believe it's very possible that FM's discovery of their affair threw a monkey wrench into the works and they weren't ready yet to drop the bomb. I wasn't ready to say that the marriage was probably over even with the revelation of her seeking out a woman for an affair. But her coldness to FM and to the reconciliation effort in general demonstrates to me that she really doesn't want reconciliation but was just using the situation to drag things out until she could decide the best way to end it.


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## PreRaphaelite

TRy said:


> The statement above shows that you are not being honest with yourself. You cannot be "moving on as though she'll never come back", if you are so willing to take her back if should later decide that (at least for now) "she want's to reconcile" This shows her that you are willing to be her plan B. As long as this is true, why should she decide now who she wants instead of cake eat? If she has not already done so, she will be resuming her affair.


I very much agree with this. The problem is OP, that the most you have been willing to do is to tell her that she should go off and decide what she wants, while you sit and wait. You have never really drawn the line in the sand because you are afraid--afraid that if you do she will decide against you. Time and time again folks on this board have told you that's not the way it works. WSs who are in the midst of an affair do not respond to your attempts at being fair or nice. WSs are selfish. They have said to themselves in some form or fashion, "I have been denying my feelings for so long, I have been unhappy for so long that I deserve to be happy, . . . .can't _I_ fulfill my desires too????, etc. etc." 

You are utterly foolish if you think that in "giving her space" she is not in contact with the OW. I would bet the ranch on it no matter what her friends tell you. And the fact that you're the "good guy" won't do a single thing to help you out of this situation. All it will do is to make them feel pity for you when she chooses what she has already chosen--the OW. 

This is something you need to get through your head: she's already chosen a long time ago. The only thing she's wrestling with now is whether or not she wants to risk going through with what she wants, or whether she's better off being with a man whom she doesn't love but who offers her convenience. She's not confused. That's her excuse. She knows what she wants.

I'm afraid you don't get it. And hundreds of posts later you still don't seem to have learned. I don't want to be harsh, but you're just killing yourself.


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## wmn1

I have always said that if she is a bisexual, it only doubles the number of people she's willing to cheat on you in society.

I agree with Bfree above. 

My question is simple FM. Lets say she comes back in 2 months and wants to reconcile but you find out she's been with the OW for those two months cheating on you ?

That is why I am not a separation guy


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## Mr Blunt

> The problem is OP, that the most you have been willing to do is to tell her that she should go off and decide what she wants, while you sit and wait. You have never really drawn the line in the sand because you are afraid--afraid that if you do she will decide against you. Time and time again folks on this board have told you that's not the way it works. WSs who are in the midst of an affair do not respond to your attempts at being fair or nice. WSs are selfish



Right on target!

*In addition, it is very disrespectful for a wife to have an affair for months then tell the husband that she is confused and needs to decide if she wants him or her partner in betrayal.* Choosing to betray your husband and children because you think you desire another sex partner is very low on the scale of integrity and good character. OP, you are allowing your wife to disrespect you!


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## Chaparral

There are different degrees of adultery I suppose. The more I think about someone trolling the Internet the more that hits me as being sick. She hooked up with a total stranger and literally left her family to do it. I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt if she had been played but she thought this out and threw her family under the bus.


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## cdbaker

Chaparral said:


> There are different degrees of adultery I suppose. The more I think about someone trolling the Internet the more that hits me as being sick. She hooked up with a total stranger and literally left her family to do it. I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt if she had been played but she thought this out and threw her family under the bus.


I'm afraid we're going to run the OP off here with all of the "You're blowing it, you need to let the hammer fall, your wife is awful, etc." stuff, but I really agree with Chaparral's post here too. I think it's one thing when an affair starts "innocently" (or as innocently as an affair can be started I suppose) if it's a friend of some kind who lures a spouse in with kind words, compliments, trust, etc., which then spills over the line into romance. That's bad, but certainly not as bad as someone who is going online looking for random people to meet and pursue an affair with. That's the lowest form of disrespect a woman can have for her husband.


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## bfree

FM, isn't blowing it at all. He's already said he's moving on. He's just not planning to file just yet. But he has already seen a lawyer so it's not like he's just sitting on his hands.


----------



## Nucking Futs

cdbaker said:


> *I'm afraid we're going to run the OP off here with all of the "You're blowing it, you need to let the hammer fall, your wife is awful, etc." stuff*, but I really agree with Chaparral's post here too. I think it's one thing when an affair starts "innocently" (or as innocently as an affair can be started I suppose) if it's a friend of some kind who lures a spouse in with kind words, compliments, trust, etc., which then spills over the line into romance. That's bad, but certainly not as bad as someone who is going online looking for random people to meet and pursue an affair with. That's the lowest form of disrespect a woman can have for her husband.


There _is_ an awful lot of it. He's got an appointment with lawyer, maybe we can take it easy on him until he gets that done. FTR I agree with everyone else with the caveat that I don't think this was the first time she went online to get laid, she's too casual about that part.


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## wmn1

trolling the internet is bad, very bad, and the most disrespectful.

However, hooking up with a family friend or someone close is the worst in my book. It hits too close home.

What FM's wife in this case did was pre-meditated. It should be divorce city. JMO


----------



## barcodelabelhere

tdwal said:


> I mean you don't just start asking random women if the are lesbians.


You don't??? No wonder I haven't been able to get a date.


----------



## happyman64

FM

Go see your attorney and set he wheels in motion.

Divorces take months.

But it puts a timeframe on how long your wife can sit on the fence.

A woman with her issues that truly respected you would have talked to you about her issues.

But your wife has lied to you, cheated on you and disrespected you, her family and the marriage.

Stop being nice.

Start the process and let her find herself on her time and dime.

Start respecting yourself. Maybe it will be contagious, then again maybe not.

I feel for you my friend. I really do.

HM


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## Chaparral

What's the real difference, in trolling hook up sites, between trolling for a man and trolling for a woman?


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## bfree

Chaparral said:


> What's the real difference, in trolling hook up sites, between trolling for a man and trolling for a woman?


No difference that I can think of. Looking to cheat is still looking to cheat.


----------



## Q tip

sidney2718 said:


> So that's the mistake so many long term married men made! They treated their wives as if they were human beings and not snotty groveling bubbling masses of womanhood.
> 
> And you wives out there, get with it. Learn how to bubble snot.


Had to take a peek and see why the ignore switch was on...


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## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, FM. How are you holding up?


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## wmn1

SurvivingInfidelity.com - My wife with another woman, really?

not to threadjack but similar story


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