# Women - Challenges



## lifeisgood

What do you think is most challenging when dealing with women?


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## Jeff/BC

lifeisgood said:


> What do you think is most challenging when dealing with women?


I wouldn't have seen it exactly this way. I think the most challenging part of dealing with humans... any humans... is actually seeing them... understanding their viewpoint and worldview... valuing them for who they really are rather than seeing them is simply a bundle of challenges and opportunities.

upon reflection and another thread I'll add a gender specific answer.
The hardest thing in dealing with women, for me, is their assumed moral and ethical superiority. It is the fact that they fundamentally believe they are better than men. The things they desire are good and pure and wholesome. The things men desire are base and trivial. For this reason, the vast majority of them know very little about men. That makes dealing with them hard. I have to bridge the entire gulf on my own.

LOL, and now that I read my first response, I see the second one could have been simply worded to say, "Women see no reason to do what I wrote above."


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## MEM2020

YES. Beware the person who loves what you "do" for them, as opposed to loving "you".

The best way I can describe this for me is:
- doing stuff that makes my W happy, secure, helps her reach her potential, that makes me happy. There is no agenda. No thought of later, tomorrow. 
- putting her first just feels right

And it sure seems that is how it feels to her as well. 

I couldn't love someone this way if their primary focus was on what I did for them.


QUOTE=Jeff/BC;664752]I wouldn't have seen it exactly this way. I think the most challenging part of dealing with humans... any humans... is actually seeing them... understanding their viewpoint and worldview... valuing them for who they really are rather than seeing them is simply a bundle of challenges and opportunities.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *Dean*

lifeisgood said:


> What do you think is most challenging when dealing with women?



Some event that causes a mood swing where they start thinking negative and get emotional.

Saw some of that in my daughters during their teenage years.
I was a good dad and always worked on keeping their confidence up.


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## that_girl

In college, I had a girlfriend.

It gave me much empathy for men...saw it from a different way.

She was adorable...but she talked so.damn.much. We'd wake up and her mouth would start. I'd go out for a smoke and coffee and she'd follow....runnin her mouth.

About things I didn't even care about. Makeup, shoes, new clothes (although now I love those things  )

I never dated a man who talked so much. I can talk a lot when it's a topic I like. But in the morning, I like it quiet. 

Good thing she was cute. cause seriously, her constant talking was so annoying.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Yes.















:lol:


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## Complexity

When you've supposedly done something wrong and they expect you to know what it is.....


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## Jeff/BC

MEM11363 said:


> YES. Beware the person who loves what you "do" for them, as opposed to loving "you".
> 
> The best way I can describe this for me is... putting her first just feels right..And it sure seems that is how it feels to her as well.


Yup, that right there is the magic for Carol and I also. 

Although honestly, at this point we are so intertwined that it's probably just better to say "we" put "us" first. We don't really think like two separate entities any more. I'm not even sure I'd know HOW to put me or her first. Our happiness is so interdependent that there is no individual "win" to be had. What thing is it, exactly, that I want which makes Carol unhappy? Which bit of happiness, specifically, did she wish me not to have?


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## Stonewall

Figuring out who she is today.


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## Bluemoon1

Their expectation that all men should be mind readers and know exactly what they want, and when we fail to live up to that saying we don't care.

In this journey I am on, I am beginning to learn that Women are really very different than men (apart from the obvious)


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## okeydokie

Jeff/BC said:


> upon reflection and another thread I'll add a gender specific answer.
> The hardest thing in dealing with women, for me, is their assumed moral and ethical superiority. It is the fact that they fundamentally believe they are better than men. The things they desire are good and pure and wholesome. The things men desire are base and trivial. For this reason, the vast majority of them know very little about men. That makes dealing with them hard. I have to bridge the entire gulf on my own.


thats very true, and it is pumped into their heads from a very young age. its pumped into all our heads in the media, especially commercials. interesting point.


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## Browncoat

Main thing I really don't know how to deal with is women being overly "girly". I like grown women, not "girls" who talk about vain things like shoes/clothes, gossip, soaps, etc... Mature and intelligent, now that's sexy and a person I want to understand!

I agree with Jeff/BC as well, esp the part that Okeydokie quoted.


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## unbelievable

Dealing with women? Learning to navigate through a nonsensical, emotional world when you're equipped with logic. It's like training your whole life for the Superbowl only to get to the field and find out the game is ping pong. Another one of my favorite things is leaving a job where you're treated with respect, only to show up at home to be treated like a 6 year old in need of constant supervision. You could work three jobs, have five degrees, raise the dead and turn water into wine. Anything with a pulse and a vagina will consider it her sared duty to try to fix or supervise you. They'll invest a year trying to get a man and the next 70 years trying to turn one into a woman.


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## Unhappy2011

lifeisgood said:


> What do you think is most challenging when dealing with women?


Women as a gender:

A lot of women have an inherent mistrust of men.

A lot of that is somewhat justified as a lot of men are not trustworthy, bothersome and or threatening.

I understand it of course, but sometimes it gets old.



A woman in a relationship:

I don't find myself in relationships that I feel have challenges based simply on her being a woman.


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## Unhappy2011

Jeff/BC said:


> I wouldn't have seen it exactly this way. I think the most challenging part of dealing with humans... any humans... is actually seeing them... understanding their viewpoint and worldview... valuing them for who they really are rather than seeing them is simply a bundle of challenges and opportunities.
> 
> upon reflection and another thread I'll add a gender specific answer.
> The hardest thing in dealing with women, for me, is their assumed moral and ethical superiority. It is the fact that they fundamentally believe they are better than men. The things they desire are good and pure and wholesome. The things men desire are base and trivial. For this reason, the vast majority of them know very little about men. That makes dealing with them hard. I have to bridge the entire gulf on my own.
> 
> LOL, and now that I read my first response, I see the second one could have been simply worded to say, "Women see no reason to do what I wrote above."


That's a really great point Jeff.

Something I have always picked up on and has irked me.

There's a whole genre of advertising that basically depicts the big dumb husband being a big dumb idiot and the smart know it all wife who corrects him.

Obviously, it is geared to appeal to women who are the biggest consumers. 

But still, it's annoying.


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## Ten_year_hubby

lifeisgood said:


> What do you think is most challenging when dealing with women?


Being a man


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## unbelievable

We've been sold a bill of goods. Men are hard wired to be defenders and leaders of their homes. Wives (like it or not) are hard wired to function in a supportive role. For the past 5 or 6 decades, society has taught western women that there is something demeaning about nurturing or being supportive of a man.


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## Trenton

In response to Jeff's thread...I find it very interesting. I never saw men as less than women in regards to wants, desires and needs. That is until I came to the marriage forums. If you read these pages and make the mistake of believing all men are like the vocal majority here (I recognize there is a minority that doesn't feel at all like this), I think what you will be left with is that men really desire sex most of all and are willing to spend a lot of time and energy in trying to figure out how to be in a sexually satisfying relationship. No problem here, I get it's important; however, most men ignore advice other than advice written by men. This is a mistake in my opinion.

Now you could give more credit to men and say they desire sex as their way of forming an emotional attachment or that because women don't understand the man's desire for sex, they often end up in marriages with unhappy men, but overall what I walk away with is that men have one glaring need that is sex.

Do I value other things above sex? Yes, I do, and so if men came forward and said sex is their #1 priority and what they think about most, I'd have to say that I don't really admire this. Why would I? It doesn't match up with my priorities. I also think it really undervalues the majority of men who care about much more than just sex.

In my own relationship I would like to satisfy my husband's needs and his priorities are a priority for me, not because I understand him exactly, but because I want him to be satisfied and happy. I admire him as he admires me. Mutual admiration and care and keeping of the other's needs/wants is paramount to a good relationship.

I just don't buy that one gender is more valuable than the other though. I also don't buy that the majority of women feel that they are superior to men. I know too many good men that have done some wonderful and amazing things, are amazing thinkers, fathers, husbands, leaders, providers and helpers. I admire them very, very much. 

So I'd really like the women who feel they are superior to men to step up and speak. What I'm trying to say is that I think this mentality is projected by men out of frustration more so than a reality.


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## livnlearn

Jeff/BC said:


> The hardest thing in dealing with women, for me, is their assumed moral and ethical superiority. It is the fact that they fundamentally believe they are better than men. ."


this is laughable when followed by comments like "unbelievable"'s "...

"Learning to navigate through a nonsensical, emotional world when you're equipped with logic" 

seems women aren't the only one with a superiority complex...


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## Bluemoon1

Of course we value other things apart from sex, but we are pretty hard wired when it comes to sex, it's the way we are made. 

It's not abnormal to have a sex drive and it's not abnormal to wish your wife would understand that withholding sex is one of the cruellest things you can ever do to a man, now if every woman understood this things would be a whole lot better for most relationships 





Trenton said:


> In response to Jeff's thread...I find it very interesting. I never saw men as less than women in regards to wants, desires and needs. That is until I came to the marriage forums. If you read these pages and make the mistake of believing all men are like the vocal majority here (I recognize there is a minority that doesn't feel at all like this), I think what you will be left with is that men really desire sex most of all and are willing to spend a lot of time and energy in trying to figure out how to be in a sexually satisfying relationship. No problem here, I get it's important; however, most men ignore advice other than advice written by men. This is a mistake in my opinion.
> 
> Now you could give more credit to men and say they desire sex as their way of forming an emotional attachment or that because women don't understand the man's desire for sex, they often end up in marriages with unhappy men, but overall what I walk away with is that men have one glaring need that is sex.
> 
> Do I value other things above sex? Yes, I do, and so if men came forward and said sex is their #1 priority and what they think about most, I'd have to say that I don't really admire this. Why would I? It doesn't match up with my priorities. I also think it really undervalues the majority of men who care about much more than just sex.
> 
> In my own relationship I would like to satisfy my husband's needs and his priorities are a priority for me, not because I understand him exactly, but because I want him to be satisfied and happy. I admire him as he admires me. Mutual admiration and care and keeping of the other's needs/wants is paramount to a good relationship.
> 
> I just don't buy that one gender is more valuable than the other though. I also don't buy that the majority of women feel that they are superior to men. I know too many good men that have done some wonderful and amazing things, are amazing thinkers, fathers, husbands, leaders, providers and helpers. I admire them very, very much.
> 
> So I'd really like the women who feel they are superior to men to step up and speak. What I'm trying to say is that I think this mentality is projected by men out of frustration more so than a reality.


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## Browncoat

Trenton said:


> In response to Jeff's thread...I find it very interesting. I never saw men as less than women in regards to wants, desires and needs. That is until I came to the marriage forums. If you read these pages and make the mistake of believing all men are like the vocal majority here (I recognize there is a minority that doesn't feel at all like this), I think what you will be left with is that men really desire sex most of all and are willing to spend a lot of time and energy in trying to figure out how to be in a sexually satisfying relationship. No problem here, I get it's important; however, most men ignore advice other than advice written by men. This is a mistake in my opinion.
> 
> Now you could give more credit to men and say they desire sex as their way of forming an emotional attachment or that because women don't understand the man's desire for sex, they often end up in marriages with unhappy men, but overall what I walk away with is that men have one glaring need that is sex.
> 
> *Do I value other things above sex? Yes, I do, and so if men came forward and said sex is their #1 priority and what they think about most, I'd have to say that I don't really admire this. Why would I? It doesn't match up with my priorities. I also think it really undervalues the majority of men who care about much more than just sex.*
> 
> In my own relationship I would like to satisfy my husband's needs and his priorities are a priority for me, not because I understand him exactly, but because I want him to be satisfied and happy. I admire him as he admires me. Mutual admiration and care and keeping of the other's needs/wants is paramount to a good relationship.
> 
> I just don't buy that one gender is more valuable than the other though. I also don't buy that the majority of women feel that they are superior to men. I know too many good men that have done some wonderful and amazing things, are amazing thinkers, fathers, husbands, leaders, providers and helpers. I admire them very, very much.
> 
> So I'd really like the women who feel they are superior to men to step up and speak. What I'm trying to say is that I think this mentality is projected by men out of frustration more so than a reality.


Most men care about more than just sex, it just happens to be #1 on the priority list. There's a feeling I get after I've had sex that can last for days that just me want to please my wife all the more. I don't want to just please my wife to get more sex, because of sex I desire all the more to please my wife. There's a difference.

I want a lot of other things out of a relationship, companionship, trust, love, patience, kindness, etc.. It's just that sex is #1 for me, it's what helps all those other things grow in the relationship. Lack of sex leads to frustration and anger, which detracts from all those other things.

With some women it's intimacy (or other things) that are #1. Just because it's not the man's #1 should we ignore it, absolutely not. Should we belittle it or consider it less worthy... never.

The problem I see far too often is that men these days do tend to value the things that women value in a relationship... just that so women I see and hear from still belittle and cheapen the value of sex. Like it's trivial, base, crass, low class or low brow. Still though they want men who value and strive for what they want while depriving men of what they need to take those other parts of the relationship to a whole new level.


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## Just Wondering

This says it all. One night during a sexual event .I a'm really going strong and I say tonight I going to f**k you so hard Your'e going to get it good.She stops me and says get off of me and never talk to me like I'am some *****.I said what did I do?
A week later we were having sex again, And she says give it to me good.F**k me hard. I stop and said wait a minute.Why is it ok for you to talk like that and I can't. She said get off of me ,You will never understand when to keep your mouth shut.So 2 weeks in a roll I lost out.Now I overstand women? Very Challenging


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## that_girl

Just Wondering said:


> This says it all. One night during a sexual event .I a'm really going strong and I say tonight I going to f**k you so hard Your'e going to get it good.She stops me and says get off of me and never talk to me like I'am some *****.I said what did I do?
> A week later we were having sex again, And she says give it to me good.F**k me hard. I stop and said wait a minute.Why is it ok for you to talk like that and I can't. She said get off of me ,You will never understand when to keep your mouth shut.So 2 weeks in a roll I lost out.Now I overstand women? Very Challenging


:scratchhead::scratchhead:

Maybe somewhere in her past, she dated someone who really treated her that way and it triggers bad shet inside herself.

Cause we talk all sorts of dirty in our bed.


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## Unhappy2011

Trenton said:


> In response to Jeff's thread...I find it very interesting. I never saw men as less than women in regards to wants, desires and needs. That is until I came to the marriage forums. If you read these pages and make the mistake of believing all men are like the vocal majority here (I recognize there is a minority that doesn't feel at all like this), I think what you will be left with is that men really desire sex most of all and are willing to spend a lot of time and energy in trying to figure out how to be in a sexually satisfying relationship. No problem here, I get it's important; however, most men ignore advice other than advice written by men. This is a mistake in my opinion.
> 
> *Now you could give more credit to men and say they desire sex as their way of forming an emotional attachment *or that because women don't understand the man's desire for sex, they often end up in marriages with unhappy men, *but overall what I walk away with is that men have one glaring need that is sex.*
> 
> *Do I value other things above sex? Yes, I do, and so if men came forward and said sex is their #1 priority and what they think about most, I'd have to say that I don't really admire this. Why would I? It doesn't match up with my priorities. I also think it really undervalues the majority of men who care about much more than just sex.*
> 
> In my own relationship I would like to satisfy my husband's needs and his priorities are a priority for me, not because I understand him exactly, but because I want him to be satisfied and happy. I admire him as he admires me. Mutual admiration and care and keeping of the other's needs/wants is paramount to a good relationship.
> 
> *I just don't buy that one gender is more valuable than the other though. I also don't buy that the majority of women feel that they are superior to men. * I know too many good men that have done some wonderful and amazing things, are amazing thinkers, fathers, husbands, leaders, providers and helpers. I admire them very, very much.
> 
> So I'd really like the women who feel they are superior to men to step up and speak. What I'm trying to say is that I think this mentality is projected by men out of frustration more so than a reality.


Do those bolded statements not contradict themselves?


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## unbelievable

livnlearn said:


> this is laughable when followed by comments like "unbelievable"'s "...
> 
> "Learning to navigate through a nonsensical, emotional world when you're equipped with logic"
> 
> seems women aren't the only one with a superiority complex...


One approach is not superior to the other. They are, however, very different approaches. One can't expect a woman to think like a man or for a man to think like a woman. This fundamental difference is at the root of most of our frustrations.


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## livnlearn

unbelievable said:


> One approach is not superior to the other. They are, however, very different approaches. One can't expect a woman to think like a man or for a man to think like a woman. This fundamental difference is at the root of most of our frustrations.


agreed. however you have to agree that referring to men as being "equipped with logic" and women as "nonsensical and emotional" sounds like a put-down of the female "approach".


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## Trenton

Unhappy2011 said:


> Do those bolded statements not contradict themselves?


If you're a man whose number one priority is sex all the time then I don't value you as much as a man whose number one priority is not sex all the time. Whether or not the man whose number one priority is sex all the time is more valuable than a woman is different though. I'd say a woman whose number one priority is materialistic things would be equal in my opinion in regards to value as a man whose number one priority is sex.

In other words, I don't value an entire gender more than another gender. Each person has a different set of values. *There are men I admire and women I admire but there are also men I really don't admire and women I really don't admire.*

Where's the contradiction?


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## Trenton

unbelievable said:


> One approach is not superior to the other. They are, however, very different approaches. One can't expect a woman to think like a man or for a man to think like a woman. This fundamental difference is at the root of most of our frustrations.


Agreed.


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## Kurosity

lifeisgood said:


> What do you think is most challenging when dealing with women?


First: the fact that I am one is a dang challange...lol just kidding.

I think that because women talk so much (thoes that do. yes a blanket statement I know) they assume that they are actually good at communicating so when they lack the ability to or can not communicat with some one in a style they understand. Is a challange because they simply can not see that they are not good at it, so there for they tell themselves, it is the other person's fault when the communication breaks down. That is just what I find difficult and challanging when dealing with my fellow females.

But I swear men expect us to read between the lines when they speak too. I swear so much is said that is not said between two guys that is just understood. I know I have had to remind my H that I am not one of his guy friends so he needs to fill in the blanks for me.....tee hee.


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## Jeff/BC

Trenton said:


> So I'd really like the women who feel they are superior to men to step up and speak. What I'm trying to say is that I think this mentality is projected by men out of frustration more so than a reality.


*laughs* Like any woman is going to say that... even as they totally trash men, men's sexuality, their own "lover's" sexuality. For reference, I refer you to the "watching" thread. In that thread, a husband expressed a fully consensual fantasy to his wife and was then vilified for even having the thought. That one, all by itself, led me to the phrase "institutionalized male oppression".

Honestly, I doubt that most women even know they do it. It's a lot like women's lib used to be. The patterns were so ingrained in our society that when someone pointed them out everyone else said "You're exaggerating" or "You're making things up" because to them it was either "just the way things are" or invisible. To me, when your lover opens himself up to you and becomes vastly vulnerable it is not obviously correct to make him a pariah.

I am very, very glad that my wife is aware of this and does not buy into it. I'm very, very glad that my marriage does not run according to what's "obvious" here.


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## livnlearn

Jeff/BC said:


> . For reference, I refer you to the "watching" thread. In that thread, a husband expressed a fully consensual fantasy to his wife and was then vilified for even having the thought.
> .


the fact that you can read the "watching" thread and come away with the thought that it was a "fully consensual fantasy" makes you nearly as scary to me as the OPs husband on that thread. 

the concern expressed for his wife, which mind you was from men as well as women, made you think of "institutionalized male oppression". huh? 

it's hard to take your opinions seriously when your thinking is, IMO, so twisted.


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## Trenton

Jeff/BC said:


> *laughs* Like any woman is going to say that... even as they totally trash men, men's sexuality, their own "lover's" sexuality. For reference, I refer you to the "watching" thread. In that thread, a husband expressed a fully consensual fantasy to his wife and was then vilified for even having the thought. That one, all by itself, led me to the phrase "institutionalized male oppression".
> 
> Honestly, I doubt that most women even know they do it. It's a lot like women's lib used to be. The patterns were so ingrained in our society that when someone pointed them out everyone else said "You're exaggerating" or "You're making things up" because to them it was either "just the way things are" or invisible. To me, when your lover opens himself up to you and becomes vastly vulnerable it is not obviously correct to make him a pariah.
> 
> I am very, very glad that my wife is aware of this and does not buy into it. I'm very, very glad that my marriage does not run according to what's "obvious" here.


*Sigh*


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## Jeff/BC

*laughs* Trust me on this. I'm a LOT scarier than the husband on that thread and you should DEFINITELY not take my opinions seriously. Thanks for letting me know that I am "twisted" though... the bashing parade continues.

I came to that conclusion because I read the post and that's what it said.

_Why is it that a man would want to watch his wife with another man. My husband wants that so much._
Translation: My husband has divulged a fantasy which I don't understand. In my world, this is good thing that loving couples routinely do.

_He said if I agree_
Indicating he's not forcing anything. He is asking for consent.

_it would be my choice if he joined in or not_
Again, not just consent to the whole thing but substantive input into shaping how it plays out.

_but the thought of another man having oral and intercourse excites him._
Her husband is excited by his fantasy... go figure.

_He wants this to happen outdoors and is always stopping at rest stops, parks etc._
Here it gets a bit sketchy. But with the information provided I'm unwilling to say that "stopping at rest stops" qualifies him as a violent animal which should be put down for the sake of larger society.

_I am terrified that he has arranged for someone to join in and told him so_
The woman is freaked out because her husband told her a sexual fantasy.. and women wonder why men are shy about these things?

_but he just laughs_
There are SO many ways to take that one. Some of them good. Some not-so-good. I'd need to ask some questions before I was willing to burn him at the stake.

Now, which post did you read?


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## that_girl

Does this even pertain to the OP on this thread? Nope.


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## Jeff/BC

that_girl said:


> Does this even pertain to the OP on this thread? Nope.


So let me get this straight. A woman comes to the "men's clubhouse" where we are discussing challenges we face with women and tells me that my challenge is inappropriate? And you feel justified in doing this.... why? And how, exactly, does that not prove my point in it's entirety?

In a sense though, I think you're right. I don't think that it has anything to do with this entire site. This site has some useful stuff on relationships. I end up "liking" a fair number of posts. There are better sites for a frank discussion of sexual topics.


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## that_girl

Men's Clubhouse isn't private, is it? Men post in the Ladies' Lounge. I don't see the problem.

but whatever. I was replying about your analysis of another thread.


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## ocotillo

Trenton said:


> Do I value other things above sex? Yes, I do, and so if men came forward and said sex is their #1 priority and what they think about most, I'd have to say that I don't really admire this. Why would I?


I propose a simple experiment. --Quit eating

In one week; maybe even less, food will escalate to your number one priority. Other things will still be important to you, but food will never be out of your mind entirely. I guarantee it. I actually know what that's like and I wouldn't think less of you for it.

Men come here and attempt to explain how unrequited sexual desire can be every bit as acute and persistent and gnawing a need as being intensely hungry. It's not a perfect analogy, because you don't get weak and start hallucinating and eventually die from lack of sex. But as a man who has done both: --Gone a week without food and almost a year and half without sex in an otherwise healthy marriage, I think I would chose the former if I had to repeat one of the two episodes again.


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## that_girl

I need it too. I can go about 3 days without having sex, then I have to have it.

I just had to go 2 weeks without it because of surgery and OMG!!!! we couldn't wait to get back to it. We did other things for those 2 weeks, but dang, it was a long time.

Everybody is different. Some men don't like/want sex as much as others and women are the same. Hopefully you find a good match.


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## shy_guy

So reading this thread, and the Men Challenges thread started in the women's forum in answer to this thread:

It seems to me that men get irritated often by the perception that women think they are morally superior to men.

Women seem to often be irritated by getting what they think is the brush-off from men, or at least not being given the same consideration as men in important matters.

So since I sometimes feel the same as other men in what I see in commercials, and in what women tell me sometimes, and since I get the feeling that women may think that I'm brushing them off even in times when I'm doing my level best to be fair in my evaluation (mentally going through gyrations like "What if this was my son and my daughter presenting these positions to me, how would I choose between the two?), I'm wondering if maybe both men and women (including myself among the men here) sometimes project a feeling onto the other gender in general. Maybe sometimes we men tend to see women as treating us like they think of themselves as superior when that's nowhere in their thought process, and maybe sometimes women are insecure enough about being treated as inferior that they actually read it into situations where it may not exist.

I am beginning to wonder how much of it is intended, and how much of it is how we read the situation. But I will have to say that even though my wife has no problem disagreeing with me, I never get the sense from her that she finds herself to be superior to me. She does tend to want to mother me when I get home after I've been working in an environment where I'm respected all day ... but I don't get the sense from her that she is thinking of herself as superior.

And now, my overthinking to the point that I confuse the heck out of myself begins ...


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## shy_guy

MominMayberry said:


> So the men who are on here who complain about sexless marriage are the ones who think little of women. Women arent irrational or stupid, they just seem to have to deal with men who think they are. Moral and ethic suppiriorty to them? I have read around here and all I see are men saying the men are better at logic and skills and speak nothing about womens skills other than kids. They are some how smarter. They know better and the women are crying fools who loose it all the time.
> I am from Macedonia so forgive my spelling, now living in the U.S and you are wrong thinking that women are less than you. We arent but you think we are and yet the men here wonder why they dont get sex. The words here are ugly and I cant imagine having a husband who says this.


Excuse me if I am not understanding you correctly, but let me ask you to clarify: Do you really see all men on here as in sexless marriages? Or do you see all men on here speaking nothing good about women outside of their skills with kids? Or fitting your other descriptions of men? Do you see all men on here thinking that women are less than they (the men) are? Do you see any examples that don't fit that? 

I'm trying to understand what you're reading that is leading you to think this about all the men on here, or if it isn't all men, then to what degree you are seeing this.


----------



## MominMayberry

unbelievable said:


> Dealing with women? Learning to navigate through a nonsensical, emotional world when you're equipped with logic. It's like training your whole life for the Superbowl only to get to the field and find out the game is ping pong. Another one of my favorite things is leaving a job where you're treated with respect, only to show up at home to be treated like a 6 year old in need of constant supervision. You could work three jobs, have five degrees, raise the dead and turn water into wine. Anything with a pulse and a vagina will consider it her sared duty to try to fix or supervise you. They'll invest a year trying to get a man and the next 70 years trying to turn one into a woman.


Women are far more logical then you give credit but from the sound of it you will never see that. If a woman needs to treat you like a 6 year old then maybe there is some truth to it. You view women as a pulse and a vagina and those are your words. Small wonder why you have issues with women and why women treat you so. Sad


----------



## Jeff/BC

shy_guy said:


> I'm trying to understand what you're reading that is leading you to think this about all the men on here, or if it isn't all men, then to what degree you are seeing this.


I see a ton of it also. A casual perusal of the thread on this site readily shows that it's a really common complain.. either sexless or nearly so. Both Carol and I have been astonished at it.


----------



## that_girl

Unbelievable, that is your wife, not all women.

I don't mother my husband or supervise. I have my own shet to take care of.


----------



## heartsbeating

shy_guy said:


> So reading this thread, and the Men Challenges thread started in the women's forum in answer to this thread:
> 
> It seems to me that men get irritated often by the perception that women think they are morally superior to men.
> 
> Women seem to often be irritated by getting what they think is the brush-off from men, or at least not being given the same consideration as men in important matters.
> 
> So since I sometimes feel the same as other men in what I see in commercials, and in what women tell me sometimes, and since I get the feeling that women may think that I'm brushing them off even in times when I'm doing my level best to be fair in my evaluation (mentally going through gyrations like "What if this was my son and my daughter presenting these positions to me, how would I choose between the two?), I'm wondering if maybe both men and women (including myself among the men here) sometimes project a feeling onto the other gender in general. Maybe sometimes we men tend to see women as treating us like they think of themselves as superior when that's nowhere in their thought process, and maybe sometimes women are insecure enough about being treated as inferior that they actually read it into situations where it may not exist.
> 
> I am beginning to wonder how much of it is intended, and how much of it is how we read the situation. But I will have to say that even though my wife has no problem disagreeing with me, I never get the sense from her that she finds herself to be superior to me. She does tend to want to mother me when I get home after I've been working in an environment where I'm respected all day ... but I don't get the sense from her that she is thinking of herself as superior.
> 
> And now, my overthinking to the point that I confuse the heck out of myself begins ...


I mentioned feeling the brush-off when I was pursuing an interest that was male-dominated. When I was on the receiving end of this, it was real (haha, yes I can almost read the thoughts that perhaps it's just the way I perceived it but hang in there with me for a moment..). Without going into too much detail, it was blatantly obvious when it happened. Thankfully I had a good, supportive group of guys around me too who, through respecting my deserved place in that scene, always had me feeling included and taken seriously. I remember one male peer introduced me to another prominent guy, and he himself caught the way he brushed me off, and called him on it then and there. While I have experienced some of that (I'm sure many people have in various aspects in their life), I also mentioned the flip-side to that attitude. I have also felt an incredible amount of acceptance and support. I did possibly involve myself more than most of the guys, which no doubt helped earn that respect. It wasn't a conscious thing at the time, I was just making things happen for myself. 

However.... I do completely agree that based on our own perceptions, we will interpret things in a way that is subject to our own filters of reality.

If you consider others as you would your own son or daughter, I'd say chances are you're probably a giving person to be around.


----------



## shy_guy

heartsbeating said:


> I mentioned feeling the brush-off when I was pursuing an interest that was male-dominated. When I was on the receiving end of this, it was real (haha, yes I can almost read the thoughts that perhaps it's just the way I perceived it but hang in there with me for a moment..). Without going into too much detail, it was blatantly obvious when it happened. Thankfully I had a good, supportive group of guys around me too who, through respecting my deserved place in that scene, always had me feeling included and taken seriously. I remember one male peer introduced me to another prominent guy, and he himself caught the way he brushed me off, and called him on it then and there. While I have experienced some of that (I'm sure many people have in various aspects in their life), I also mentioned the flip-side to that attitude. I have also felt an incredible amount of acceptance and support. I did possibly involve myself more than most of the guys, which no doubt helped earn that respect. It wasn't a conscious thing at the time, I was just making things happen for myself.
> 
> However.... I do completely agree that based on our own perceptions, we will interpret things in a way that is subject to our own filters of reality.
> 
> If you consider others as you would your own son or daughter, I'd say chances are you're probably a giving person to be around.


Do you ever see women get special treatment, or be rewarded for things the men are not rewarded for, or be promoted faster than their male counterparts in these male dominated fields? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## shy_guy

MominMayberry said:


> Women are far more logical then you give credit but from the sound of it you will never see that. If a woman needs to treat you like a 6 year old then maybe there is some truth to it. You view women as a pulse and a vagina and those are your words. Small wonder why you have issues with women and why women treat you so. Sad


The real problem I have in the two posts of yours that I have read is that I perceive you to be speaking in stereotype and considering two binary positions rather than degrees. I suppose the thread is asking for people to stereotype, though. What you are responding to is also stereotyping, but it sounds as if he has examples behind his post that are feeding his perception. With your posts, I'm not able to see through the stereotype to any examples that are feeding it.

When I read what you post here, I begin tripping because first, you cannot logically categorize all women and make a statement about their level of logic. We're dealing with many individuals. Fair question about whether he needs to be treated like a 6 year old, but is that always the case with everyone who feels like that? And are you understanding the idiomatic meaning of what he is saying? (I think he is making a strawman when he says that, but there is a behavior he is describing that many men complain about their wives about.) 

If you read again, is he really saying that all women are a vagina and a pulse? or is that a (rather crass) description to include all women. In his case, it would be a stereotype and a lack of tact, but in your response, I think you are building a strawman from his response. I really think a strawman because you then use that strawman to base your conclusion on.

It's really an opportunity for learning from both parties if they can see it as such. For you, do you wonder what men really wonder where some ideas come from in men? If so, calm, read, learn, see if any of it applies to you. For the person you are responding to, I think he can learn from the responses he is getting, and probably should also go to the corresponding thread in the Ladies' Lounge and learn from that as well. What do you think?


----------



## shy_guy

that_girl said:


> Unbelievable, that is your wife, not all women.
> 
> I don't mother my husband or supervise. I have my own shet to take care of.


While I have nothing in your post to disagree with, I also don't know who you're responding to, so I don't know if there is anything to engage in conversation with you about ... and I don't know whether it should be a long post, or a short post .


----------



## shy_guy

Jeff/BC said:


> I see a ton of it also. A casual perusal of the thread on this site readily shows that it's a really common complain.. either sexless or nearly so. Both Carol and I have been astonished at it.


Jeff, I see a degree of it, but it wasn't really what I was questioning. One thing to remember is that this is an affinity group and not a statistical representation of the world. What affinitizes us is not necessarily marital problems, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

shy guy,

Do you think men and women are wired the same way?


----------



## shy_guy

Conrad, no, but I also don't think any two individuals are wired the same. What gives me problems are when we start things like, "Women do ... ," or, "Men are like ..." I think we may have some tendencies, but traits don't just apply all across the group. I learn on here, but I'm going to be sure to validate with my wife before assuming something applies to her. Sometimes, maybe more often than you'd think, things that apply to "women" when you read them from men or women on this board don't apply to her. Same for things that apply to men vs. things that apply to me.

Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

This is way too funny to not be true.

Mark Gungor - Men's Brain Women's Brain - YouTube

Tell me what you think.


----------



## MEM2020

Flawless. 



livnlearn said:


> this is laughable when followed by comments like "unbelievable"'s "...
> 
> "Learning to navigate through a nonsensical, emotional world when you're equipped with logic"
> 
> seems women aren't the only one with a superiority complex...


----------



## MEM2020

TG,
Jeff got specifically challenged about another post he referenced in context. He responded to that challenge with a calm, constructive analysis. Most folks on TAM respond the way he did when they are challenged the way he was. Why are you poking him for what is "standard operating procedure" around here? 

Is it because you don't like what he said? Or don't like the original guys fantasy? 




that_girl said:


> Does this even pertain to the OP on this thread? Nope.


----------



## Browncoat

Conrad said:


> This is way too funny to not be true.
> 
> Mark Gungor - Men's Brain Women's Brain - YouTube
> 
> Tell me what you think.


There's a lot of truth in this video, but at the same rate you have to keep in mind that these are generalities. Some women/men operate slightly differently.

It is funny though.


----------



## shy_guy

Conrad said:


> This is way too funny to not be true.
> 
> Mark Gungor - Men's Brain Women's Brain - YouTube
> 
> Tell me what you think.


. Yes. Funny.


----------



## Catherine602

I wonder what the response of male poster would be to a a similar thread by a female poster. I think the dogs of war would descent like avenging angels

I'll bet before the 3rd post a male defender would hurl curses of man-hating feminist. But this is tolerated without challenge as are other threads of a similar nature. 

I am not complaining because it is useless. Thread after thread seems to support a culture of "men as victims". 

I don't buy it. There are no chellenges that women present that a man worth his skin cannot meet successfully. There are relationship problems that are just as much a mans as it is the woman's fault.

Moreover, there were always men who accommodated their partner even when it was not the social norm because they loved. On the other hand, there have always been men who abused their position of superiority or were completely oblivious of the difference between men and women. 

To them, women were defective and they were challenged to deal with their defects. I think this whining is an excuse by men who would have been oblivious in the old days to be lazy. 

The challenges are not women, gentleman. The challege is to adjust to being knocked off as the standard bearer of humankind against which all others are judged. 

Now we are all have to do at lest half of the work to have a mutually satisfying relationship. We are evolving and maturing as a species and accepting the two haves of the natures God gave us. 

For some men and women this is not a problem. They would have done so even if it were not obligatory. It is the men and women who only see things from their needs and wants that are severely challenged. 

I think that a chapter should be added to the Man up book. Women are not like you let me count the ways. 

As we mature we are given the wonderful gift to spend a lifetime engaging in the discovery of our respective natures. If we were all the same life would be bleak. 

You can complain and resist change and be unhappy or you can embrace it like many men and women. They are the successful ones if they meet a like minded partner. 

That is a big if. Women can be as selfish or mentally unstable as men. The selfish or unstable women would have compitulated in the old days. 

Now they are not compelled to do so for survival. These are the ones running apesh!t all over men. 

We are all human and that is what unites us. For every challenge that men have women have as well so we are even. Woman are not broken, we are different. 

For those men who expect our forbearance and can not give it, don't whine. You reap what you sow.


----------



## Catherine602

Shy where did your post go?? I have an answer. 

I am sorry that you are annoyed by my post. It is interesting that you use absolutes to characterize my posts. Are you absolutely sure you that you have my faults all figured out? I am happy that you are confident in your skills to comprehend. I am not so confident. 

But I cannot be as sure about you as you seem to be about me because your post do not stand out in my mind. Mine obviously stand out in your mind. 

If you expect to have no apposing opinions then you may not be using the forum experience to it's best advantage. I want to be challenged because I am not as sure about the varacity of my thoughts as you are about yours. 

I enter into the discussion and lay my cards on the table. You are free to be agreeable and go with the general flow. It is safer I will agree. I am here for a completely different reason and it works for me. 

I need more than affirmation that I am right. I want to be challenged. I want to grow and understand. I don't want to become intellectually or socially ossified. 

It may not be the way you approach things but it my way. 

You do things your way and I will do things my way. You are not in a position to understand my motivations or to tell me what I should do. If you don't like what I say offer a substantial rebuttal if you can think of one or even two.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine, I removed it after thinking again. It's pretty simple really. You do come across to me as being defensive, but after thinking more, I decided it wasn't something I wanted to pursue. You had some points, I just saw the defensiveness I always remember from your posts.

I don't single you out, Catherine. I remember tone and stories from most of the posters.

If it's something you really want to debate with me about, I'll put it back. I'm definitely not one who just takes a safe route as you are characterizing.

*EDIT:* BTW, Catherine, with some of the exchanges we've had, where you have tried so hard to get personal and have (I believe) purposfully missed my point and built strawmen out of my arguments in trying to support your point, and categorize me, I find it difficult to believe that you really don't find anything that stands out, or that you think I would back away from you just to be agreeable . I'm not sure where most of your posts come from to tell you the truth. The last sentence in your post has me particularly puzzled ESPECIALLY in light of previous exchanges we have had. You decide whether or not to leave it up, or if you want to debate it.


----------



## AbsolutelyFree

I think members like Jeff/BC have a somewhat legitimate point, but state it very poorly. A lot of guys can be bitter and sulky, to the detriment of what they are trying to say.


----------



## Catherine602

Defensive - Anxious to avoid critism or challenge. 

Is this what you see? I post to offer an alternate view. Is that defensive in your eyes? When I meet with a challenge from other posters that make me think and change my view, I readily admit my errors in thinking. 

Do you think you are projecting? Are not you being defensive instead of me? Offering a different view is not negative or offensive to people who enjoy a discussing their views or who want to hear how others think. 

I don't always like what I hear or read but hearing it keeps me thinking. I need the intellectual challenge against which I can develop a wider view.

You are lucky if you have that. I do not have a very comprehensive understanding of men and that is what I am working on. I am not here to be agreeable or censured. So, if you will indulge me when I invade the men's cave I would appreciate it.


----------



## AbsolutelyFree

Catherine602 said:


> I think that a chapter should be added to the Man up book. Women are not like you let me count the ways.


I think this is a good idea, and I have thought just the same, although not in these words. It's quite pointless to be angry, sulky and bitter about how women feel attraction, and their lack of response to actions which they (according to us men) "should" be attracted to. It's just life, biology, whatever. Get over it.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Defensive - Anxious to avoid critism or challenge.
> 
> Is this what you see?


What I think is that you often read things, especially in something you see as a men vs. women issue, and you think things that are directed against the female are attacks. It seems like you take them to be personal attacks against you, and you jump in to defend. It doesn't seem that you weigh the possibility that there may be some veracity to the argument prior to doing this, and sometimes, I see you wiggling a little bit later ... I have thought the wiggling was because you found yourself in a ridiculous position, trying to defend something that was not defensible, but not able to give up the fight. I thought a little bit of thought on this prior to jumping into a defensive position probably would have prevented the wiggling I was seeing later.

An example of this is our exchange on the feminism thread where you even got to the point of building strawmen out of my arguments and talking about how dumb the women must be where I work (somehthing that was not implied anywhere). You were trying to be dismissive of me I think, but the position you were in was ... silly. If you recall, you jumped into that discussion with an angry rant against a woman for even suggesting that feminism had gone too far.

This is what I mean by defensive.



Catherine602 said:


> I post to offer an alternate view. Is that defensive in your eyes?


If that is what I thought you were doing, then no. But, see above.



Catherine602 said:


> When I meet with a challenge from other posters that make me think and change my view, I readily admit my errors in thinking.


We all like to say this. Can you give me an example where you have done this? I have no example of you doing this that I can cite.



Catherine602 said:


> Do you think you are projecting? Are not you being defensive instead of me?


It's always possible. Can you point out where I'm doing this?



Catherine602 said:


> Offering a different view is not negative or offensive to people who enjoy a discussing their views or who want to hear how others think.


I'll agree. I just think that most times, I see reaction from you, stereotyping (especially men), and I have a little trouble picking out the parts where you are offering opinions outside of that. Maybe it's the way you start out in these discussions that creates that impression in me.



Catherine602 said:


> I don't always like what I hear or read but hearing it keeps me thinking. I need the intellectual challenge against which I can develop a wider view.
> 
> You are lucky if you have that. I do not have a very comprehensive understanding of men and that is what I am working on. I am not here to be agreeable or censured. So, if you will indulge me when I invade the men's cave I would appreciate it.


I don't care whether you are in the mancave or elsewhere, but starting out assuming the things that I have pointed out in our previous exchanges (do you want me to repeat them? I can if needed) I think more often would lead many to conclude there is some veracity to the poster who claimed that women perceive themselves to be morally superior, and think men are base. When you start into discussions, I often have the perception that this is how you perceive it, and the things you start off assuming about men (do you want me to go back into history again and provide the examples?) are what makes me think this.

Does this make sense? I don't think it is you laying your cards on the table necessarily. I think it is often you jumping into a defensive position without thinking about what is being said - especially in cases where you see it as a men vs. women issue.


----------



## Browncoat

Getting back to the main point of this thread, spending extra time helping my mother I was reminded of one issue that irritates me to no end:

*Details vs Concision*:
There's a time and a place for details, however sometimes details simply mire the truth/point in a sea of needless details.

For example if my mother needs help with something, she can't simply ask that I move a TV from point A to B.

Instead I get a gigantic story including details about how the TV in spot B blew up, what show was on, an unimportant detour into the details of the show that happened to be on, what date the TV blew up on including time and how the weather was that day. I get a few more additional diversions into the weather of recent days, and what she wants to wear to church for Easter Sunday (again pondering the weather and it's effects on garment selection). I get a long winded verbalized internal debate she's having about whether or not she wants me to hookup the cables into the back of the TV once moved (the debate took longer than connecting and testing the cable and dvd players).

... yeah too many details and unnecessary text that could just be summed up by: "Please move this TV upstairs on the table. Thank you". All the while I'm trying to feign interest out of politeness, but in my mind all I can think is: "please stop, what do you really want?".


----------



## Jeff/BC

AbsolutelyFree said:


> I think members like Jeff/BC have a somewhat legitimate point, but state it very poorly. A lot of guys can be bitter and sulky, to the detriment of what they are trying to say.


It's kind of sad that you took it that way although reading the post I can see how. I've been spending too much time thinking about these things and I skipped over the "obvious" parts to me.

For the record, I was not talking about some woman somewhere thinking she was "all that" and her man was dirt. Yeah, I've met a few actual female supremists.. I generally find them nutjobs and don't have opinions about their nutty opinions.

I was actually speaking more along a gender-studies line... looking at the cultural roles that we have in the US culture. Women did a pretty good job with women's lib. Now us men, for the sake of men and women both, need to get busy and break the mold that was established for us... just as the women did. I don't hold individual women accountable for it... they are just swept up in the cultural norms just as the men are. And just like feminism, the men perpetuate the restrictive roles just as the women did in feminism.


----------



## bubbly girl

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> We take too long in the bathroom and we're always late.


That's a stereotype I can admit to! LOL 

My hubby helps me out with that pesky habit. He rushes the heck out of me till we're out the door (on time!).


----------



## Catherine602

shy_guy said:


> I see reaction from you, stereotyping (especially men) and I have a little trouble picking out the parts where you are offering opinions outside of that. Maybe it's the way you start out in these discussions that creates that impression in me.


Really? :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

I thought that's what this thread was all about. It is ironic that you mention stereotyping in a thread rife with nothing but that very thing about women. It is rather late to raise an objection don't you think?

If you object to stereotyping in principal then go back through the thread and make your objections. If you sympathize and agree with the male angst that pushes them to generalizations about woman then you will have to accept the same from women. Can't have what you can't give. 

Is it possible that you expect women to endure the challenges they have with men but to rise above stereotyping but you cannot expect the same of men? 

Would that not be a double standard? You seem to see double standards in the workplace and object. Is that on principle or just when you perceive it as disadvantageous to men? 

Or perhaps men are suffering so much that they need to vent and as such, they can engage in insulting generalizations about women? 

That seems to be a common stance. Look up Firepower's thread. Talk about stereotyping I'm surprised that you were not all over him given you anti-stereotype stance.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

LadyFrogFlyAway said:


> We take too long in the bathroom and we're always late.


I am faster than my husband -in the bathroom - went to walmart the other day, I walked in, he walked in , I was out quicker- by a good minute... very common. Even at home, I seem to be waiting on him , the boys .... I am never late either. 

I have gotten so irritated waiting on women in the darn bathroom, I have jumped in the men's room & had my husband watch the door (in a place that only has one stall -like my church). 

Yep, I shouldn't do that - but oh well. I am not a big fan of waiting.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Really? :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> I thought that's what this thread was all about. It is ironic that you mention stereotyping in a post rife with nothing but that very thing about women. It is rather late to raise an objection don't you think?


Granted. The thread is stereotyping, and inviting that by it's nature. I think prior to my response to you, I was recognizing that in every post, including the response to Conrad's question.

On rereading the post you made that I originally responded to, I thought I didn't want to respond after all. You started out in that post sounding to me like you were angry, but even so, toward the end, I thought you made some points, even if you did make the comments like the problem being men and not women. (That statement is what precipitated several of the sentences both in my original response, and in subsequent responses. I did try to put it in context of your previous posts, though.)

I admit, you draw out my emotions. I thought about it, and wasn't going to pursue it, but it sounded like you wanted to pursue it, so I invited it to continue.



Catherine602 said:


> If you object to stereotyping in principal then go back through the thread and make your objections. If you sympathize and agree with the male angst that pushes them to generalizations about woman then you will have to accept the same from women.


Do you see me making a difference in the thread? I see myself wondering if both take a perception that isn't really there. I see myself responding to one woman that I thought was stereotyping because I thought identifying the stereotypes were helpful in the discussion. I see myself replying to HeartsBeating asking for a clarification to see if I could understand more of the perception and the substance in what she brought out. I see myself also replying to Conrad and addressing stereotypes as I did. Then, I think I'm replying to you next. Is this not how you see it? If so, was there a difference in how I replied to Conrad as opposed to MomInMayberry when I'm talking about stereotypes? (I did laugh at the video. I saw no preference being offered in the video, and I didn't think anyone was expected to take it seriously.)



Catherine602 said:


> Is it possible that you expect women to endure the challenges they have with men but to rise above stereotyping but you cannot expect the same of men?


I don't think I expect that. 



Catherine602 said:


> Would that not be a double standard? You seem to see double standards in the workplace and object. Is that on principle or just when you perceive it as disadvantageous to men?


It would in fact be a double standard. Do you see me doing that?




Catherine602 said:


> Or perhaps men are suffering so much that they need to vent and as such, they can engage in insulting generalizations about women?


As I said in the post I deleted, there is a corollary thread in the Women's forum. Maybe the corollary question can be asked there. I read the thread, with the exception of the post I've seen that FrenchFry has made replying to my questions. I don't think I tried to address any stereotypes in that thread ... I just read with interest, remarked on the differences in perception between the two threads that I saw in reply to another poster, and asked FrenchFry a few honest questions that dealt with the argument she was describing - not the stereotypes. Do you see this the same way? 

*EDIT:* I actually don't usually want to affect what the women are saying in the threads that are directed toward them. I usually want to hear them in their own words. I have a good idea what the men are going to say in our threads, but I won't claim the same on the women's threads. That's a big source of learning for me. (end edit)

So I let the women have their thread to post their stereotypes. I talked about stereotypes in this thread. Do you see me as unbalanced in this? Do you see me as insulting to women in this? If you feel a need to address the insulting generalizations that men make about women here, would it be possible for you to read the corrollary thread and see some of the stereotypes in that thread as possibly insulting to men. I wouldn't expect you to recognize all of them from the perspective of various men, but I think you could recognize the stereotypes could you not? But you chose only this one side of the issue as well.




Catherine602 said:


> That seems to be a common stance. Look up Firepower's thread. Talk about stereotyping I'm surprised that you were not all over him given you anti-stereotype stance.


 
To tell you the truth, I haven't read the thread. I don't read all the threads, and especially recently, I've found it to be advantageous to cut back the time I've spent here. When I am here, I usually find the thread titles that either I think will be interesting to learn something, or something I think will be fun to engage in, and recently, I've stayed specifically on the threads I thought I could read and interact on that would not draw me in too deeply and make me want to spend more time than I thought would be advantageous here. I need to tear my attention away when I walk away. My choice of threads is not intended to be a double standard. Does that make sense? Is that an acceptable answer?


----------



## shy_guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am faster than my husband -in the bathroom - went to walmart the other day, I walked in, he walked in , I was out quicker- by a good minute....


That happens to us men as we age.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine, as I think, there is another thing I should have put in the previous post. I think I implied it in the post I deleted. In a post directed toward men for response, I do tend to reply to women who join in the discussion more than men. I do that especially if it seems to me that they became angry and didn't look for any veracity in the posts made by the men.

The reason is really a projection of what I'm doing when I go onto the women's threads. As I said above, I want to hear the women in their own words and learn from that regardless of whether I agree with the position. I usually either find some veracity in the posts there, or I gain some insight into a motivation, and sometimes with that insight, I find I need to investigate a bit more even things in my own family. Sometimes, that investigation leads to a better understanding on my part. I seem to hope that women that jump into these types of discussions where they are hearing primarily from men to be able to put the emotions aside for a bit, and do the same thing.

If you really wanted to (and if I was in your position, I wouldn't be interested enough to pursue it), you can find a few exchanges I've had with FrenchFry previously where I've asked directly if she saw the point the men were making, or if she at least saw the motivation for it. Those questions come after first getting past some of the emotion in the initial post, though. It's just asking someone else if they don't want to learn the same types of things I want to learn.


----------



## FirstYearDown

As a woman, my biggest challenges with other females have been jealousy and cattiness. I find that the women who try to sabotage me in the workplace or put me down in my daily life are ALWAYS lacking in a key way that I am not. They are usually fat, ugly, lonely or all three. 

I also get a lot of snide remarks from unhappy mothers about the things I have time to do, such as getting my nails done regularly or taking impromptu getaways with my husband. "Must be nice to have all that idle time! I have kids, so there is no time for me to (insert fun thing I am doing.)" I usually just laugh and respond with something such as "Yeah! That's why I am a proud aunt and not a mom!" It is not my problem that they resent the sacrifices that come with motherhood. I admire mothers who own their choice to bear children, instead of becoming martyrs.

Catherine, I think you look for opportunities to post angrily about perceived sexism. Shy_guy is a very thoughtful and intelligent gentleman; I don't see any of the double standards you are complaining about. It appears that your negative experiences with men have led to an irrational hatred for males. Not every man is a sexist pig out to get you.


----------



## that_girl

I am speedy in the bathroom (having kids will do that to ya) and hardly ever late...  If I am late, it's usually because of LA traffic and I always call to let the people/person know.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I am rarely late because I think it is disrespectful. Those who are constantly tardy have no manners or class, especially if it is a special occasion. 

I was LIVID on my wedding day, because some fool made all my guests late and held up the vendors. No bride appreciates tardiness because it ruins plans.


----------



## Catherine602

Shy 

The women's thread is nothing like this thread. There are some really heartfelt and warm post there. Go and read and tell me what you see. Maybe I am biased. There is no male bashing there. The challenges are stated in terms of personal experiences. 

It is ridiculous to support insulting post about women under the guise of "men have been pushed so far". I know men are not weak, if they feel helpless then they forgot their own strength. 

These threads are meant to bait woman into a battle. You can't possibly expect women to be tolerant of this. But where does this get you? This is so played out - the same thing over and over. 

No wonder men feel so hopeless. And then to accuse one woman of stereotyping because she reacts just seems liking baiting, no? Aren't these threads looking for a reactions from women? I am stupid to take the bait! 

Men are doing each other no favors by tolerating biased and stereotypical views of women. How does it help a man who is desperately unhappy and seeking answers? I think expressing what you feel is important even if it negative. The part that bothers me with these venting threads is that, no one offers leadership. 

Men are angry when they come here and angrier when they leave. They don't need to be fueled with "all women are this way or that"; it makes them hopeless. That is a shame because it is not hopeless. 

They are looking for a way out of their misery from a community of men. Should there not be one or more men that can offer them leadership and hope? 

A mature man who knows and likes women and knows and likes men. A man with credibility who can demand of men to embrace their masculinity with a sense of pride as a positive force. 

Saying negative things about women is not a sign of weakness so much as a sign of a deeply troubled man. What is week is that it ends there. The power is unharnessed and dissipates. That is a pity, no? 

Rarely does a man come in to offer gentle but firm leadership that encourages men to respect the differences between men and women. Only a man can do that. Women will not change and disliking femaleness will not make men any more capable of having satisfying relationships. 

Knowing women and having a general outline of what we are like is a beginning. Accepting those differences is a second step and learning how to be successful in a relationship with an individual women is another. When I say these things, I am blaming men. 

But if a man who is respected says something similar in the way men can hear, he will be heard. There are ways of dealing with healthy women. I know this. I have seen women be one way with one man who let her walk all over him and another way with another. 

Why? It depends on the man. That has got to be a hopeful message. Find a compatible women and be yourself. Know her nature as a woman and get to know her as an individual. 

Forget all the negative things this culture circulates. That increases your chances of finding a woman who has not brought into the negatives about men. Like attracts like.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Shy
> 
> The women's thread is nothing like this thread. There are some really heartfelt and warm post there. Go and read and tell me what you see. Maybe I am biased. There is no male bashing there. The challenges are stated in terms of personal experiences.
> 
> It is ridiculous to support insulting post about women under the guise of "men have been pushed so far". I know men are not weak, if they feel helpless then they forgot their own strength.
> 
> These threads are meant to bait woman into a battle. You can't possibly expect women to be tolerant of this. But where does this get you? This is so played out - the same thing over and over.
> 
> No wonder men feel so hopeless. And then to accuse one woman of stereotyping because she reacts just seems liking baiting, no? Aren't these threads looking for a reactions from women? I am stupid to take the bait!
> 
> Men are doing each other no favors by tolerating biased and stereotypical views of women. How does it help a man who is desperately unhappy and seeking answers? I think expressing what you feel is important even if it negative. The part that bothers me with these venting threads is that, no one offers leadership.
> 
> Men are angry when they come here and angrier when they leave. They don't need to be fueled with "all women are this way or that"; it makes them hopeless. That is a shame because it is not hopeless.
> 
> They are looking for a way out of their misery from a community of men. Should there not be one or more men that can offer them leadership and hope?
> 
> A mature man who knows and likes women and knows and likes men. A man with credibility who can demand of men to embrace their masculinity with a sense of pride as a positive force.
> 
> Saying negative things about women is not a sign of weakness so much as a sign of a deeply troubled man. What is week is that it ends there. The power is unharnessed and dissipates. That is a pity, no?
> 
> Rarely does a man come in to offer gentle but firm leadership that encourages men to respect the differences between men and women. Only a man can do that. Women will not change and disliking femaleness will not make men any more capable of having satisfying relationships.
> 
> Knowing women and having a general outline of what we are like is a beginning. Accepting those differences is a second step and learning how to be successful in a relationship with an individual women is another. When I say these things, I am blaming men.
> 
> But if a man who is respected says something similar in the way men can hear, he will be heard. There are ways of dealing with healthy women. I know this. I have seen women be one way with one man who let her walk all over him and another way with another.
> 
> Why? It depends on the man. That has got to be a hopeful message. Find a compatible women and be yourself. Know her nature as a woman and get to know her as an individual.
> 
> Forget all the negative things this culture circulates. That increases your chances of finding a woman who has not brought into the negatives about men. Like attracts like.


Catherine, suppose someone takes leadership in this thread as you are saying needs to be done. What would he say? Who would approve it? Would it only be acceptable, for instance, when it met with certain women's approval? Or when certain women decided it was perceived the same way that those same women perceived the corollary thread?

Suppose someone stepped up and was successful in doing this. Would that change the perception in the men who posted about women who feel they are morally superior? Or might it actually confirm those feelings in men with this perception? 

I'd rather ask you whether you think they are being honest in what they are expressing. If they honestly have those feelings, what can be done to address that honestly? Is it possible that some men you know and care about have the same honest feelings? Might answering these questions help you relate to those men if they do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

I am not clear about what you are asking. You want me to do a mea culpa? Acknowledge that women think that they are morally superior to men and that these men are justified in their anger and hatred of women? If that is what you are asking then I will ask you to show me how. Validate me first. 

I had a very bad experience when I was a young teen. I came away from that devastating experience feeling that all men were exploitative and wanted just sex from women and would do anything to get it. 

My experience was so bad that I attempted suicide at 15 years old. It altered the course of my life and effects my relationship even today. I was innocent and naive. I had no part in what happened to me. The man played on my innocence. I was an easy target. 

I did not know that it was possible for anyone be calculating knowing that they were injuring but do it anyway.

I had no idea that the male desire for sex would make him suspend compassion, empathy and morality just for sexual pleasure. I had no idea that I was viewed as a means to an end and not as a feeling human being. 

Can you understand how I could misinterpret what men are from that early experience? Can you understand why I have had to work so hard to get where I am today? 

So you see we all have our grievances. But we have a responsibility to grow into adulthood and make a choice. See the bad in every thing or to see at all of the good.


----------



## OldGirl

Browncoat said:


> Getting back to the main point of this thread, spending extra time helping my mother I was reminded of one issue that irritates me to no end:
> 
> *Details vs Concision*:
> There's a time and a place for details, however sometimes details simply mire the truth/point in a sea of needless details.
> 
> For example if my mother needs help with something, she can't simply ask that I move a TV from point A to B.
> 
> Instead I get a gigantic story including details about how the TV in spot B blew up, what show was on, an unimportant detour into the details of the show that happened to be on, what date the TV blew up on including time and how the weather was that day. I get a few more additional diversions into the weather of recent days, and what she wants to wear to church for Easter Sunday (again pondering the weather and it's effects on garment selection). I get a long winded verbalized internal debate she's having about whether or not she wants me to hookup the cables into the back of the TV once moved (the debate took longer than connecting and testing the cable and dvd players).
> 
> ... yeah too many details and unnecessary text that could just be summed up by: "Please move this TV upstairs on the table. Thank you". All the while I'm trying to feign interest out of politeness, but in my mind all I can think is: "please stop, what do you really want?".


I couldn't help but laugh all the way through this. My mother is *exactly* like this. It requires a lot of patience. You have my sympathy


----------



## FirstYearDown

Catherine602 said:


> I am not clear about what you are asking. You want me to do a mea culpa? Acknowledge that women think that they are morally superior to men and that these men are justified in their anger and hatred of women? If that is what you are asking then I will ask you to show me how. Validate me first.
> 
> *I had a very bad experience when I was a young teen. I came away from that devastating experience feeling that all men were exploitative and wanted just sex from women and would do anything to get it.
> 
> My experience was so bad that I attempted suicide at 15 years old. It altered the course of my life and effects my relationship even today. I was innocent and naive. I had no part in what happened to me. The man played on my innocence. I was an easy target.
> 
> I did not know that it was possible for anyone be calculating knowing that they were injuring but do it anyway.
> 
> I had no idea that the male desire for sex would make him suspend compassion, empathy and morality just for sexual pleasure. I had no idea that I was viewed as a means to an end and not as a feeling human being.
> 
> Can you understand how I could misinterpret what men are from that early experience? Can you understand why I have had to work so hard to get where I am today? *
> 
> So you see we all have our grievances. But we have a responsibility to grow into adulthood and make a choice. See the bad in every thing or to see at all of the good.


Do you think you are making the choice to see the bad in every man? It certainly comes across that way; you needlessly attack men on TAM for no reason. It is not fair to make male members on this forum pay for what the predator did to you. I wonder if you do the same to your husband.

I have also been sexually victimized and manipulated by older males. It doesn't give me the right to paint ALL men as evil. That would damage my credibility and make me seem sexist. I find sexism distasteful in BOTH genders. 

Catherine, I wish you healing and peace. While I have sympathy for what you have endured, I hope that you stop allowing your past to cloud your rational judgement. Your abuser does not deserve to have this much control over your behaviour at this stage of your life. Don't let the bastard win!


----------



## *Dean*

FirstYearDown said:


> Do you think you are making the choice to see the bad in every man? It certainly comes across that way; you needlessly attack men on TAM for no reason. It is not fair to make male members on this forum pay for what the predator did to you. I wonder if you do the same to your husband.
> 
> I have also been sexually victimized and manipulated by older males. It doesn't give me the right to paint ALL men as evil. That would damage my credibility and make me seem sexist. I find sexism distasteful in BOTH genders.
> 
> Catherine, I wish you healing and peace. While I have sympathy for what you have endured, I hope that you stop allowing your past to cloud your rational judgement. Your abuser does not deserve to have this much control over your behaviour at this stage of your life. Don't let the bastard win!



I'm going to come to Catherine's defense here.
I understood the message and point she was making.

As a man I don't agree with the blanket statements that were made regarding women by some men on this thread. 
I held back, didn't post anything.

Sometimes in the healing process people just need to vent, get things off their mind, express a view, etc.

The blanket statements made didn't impact my overall beliefs or values.........I just let the statements roll.

But I did understand Catherine's points and I may not hold back in the future.........which will provide a balance regarding this topic.


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> I am not clear about what you are asking. You want me to do a mea culpa? Acknowledge that women think that they are morally superior to men and that these men are justified in their anger and hatred of women? If that is what you are asking then I will ask you to show me how. Validate me first.


Do you see me doing that? Or if you look at my previous post where I said I asked "Don't you want to learn the types of things I want to learn?" would it really be more consistent with that?

What I really see you doing is using a few euphemisms in your previous post to (all euphemisms removed from what follows): Tell those guys to be quiet. Tell them they can only speak what a certain woman (or group of women) approves of. 

I'm not going to do that. I want them to think for themselves, and speak for themselves. Truth is, even if someone tried to step up and get those guys to think or speak a certain way, they're not going to - nobody, including you nor I, has that kind of power over someone else's mind when they want to think for themselves.

So since we don't have that kind of power, then maybe we should ask ourselves why they think that way. I chose the example of someone saying that they felt that things female were portrayed as morally superior and things men as base and dumb. I can definitely see that portrayed in commercials for example. The reason I chose this was both because I can see where some of that is coming from, and because I thought it would be obvious when I asked the questions that taking the approach that you are suggesting would be an example of that very thing. 

I think it is better in this case to ask why they would think that. Is there anything, like commercials or posters on this board, that would help to confirm that in some men's minds?




Catherine602 said:


> I had a very bad experience when I was a young teen. I came away from that devastating experience feeling that all men were exploitative and wanted just sex from women and would do anything to get it.
> 
> My experience was so bad that I attempted suicide at 15 years old. It altered the course of my life and effects my relationship even today. I was innocent and naive. I had no part in what happened to me. The man played on my innocence. I was an easy target.
> 
> I did not know that it was possible for anyone be calculating knowing that they were injuring but do it anyway.
> 
> I had no idea that the male desire for sex would make him suspend compassion, empathy and morality just for sexual pleasure. I had no idea that I was viewed as a means to an end and not as a feeling human being.
> 
> Can you understand how I could misinterpret what men are from that early experience? Can you understand why I have had to work so hard to get where I am today?
> 
> So you see we all have our grievances. But we have a responsibility to grow into adulthood and make a choice. See the bad in every thing or to see at all of the good.


Catherine, I'm very sorry this happened to you. However; I think you can see by now that not all men are like this guy. In fact most of us get very angry in a very deep way when we hear about these types of things. Actually, I can't even watch a movie about rape because it stirs such strong negative feelings in me, and it takes a long time for me to recover and put my energy back where it needs to be. 

I hope that conversations on here are helpful to you. However; other people have different experiences, and you may be hearing some of those experiences coming out in their posts. It may be that they are expressing it in some of the statements you find offensive, but I don't think that was what was behind their statements. I think there is SOMETHING behind it, and it may be attitudes of women they know. In such a case, I think it is very healthy if they get to express their frustrations - maybe others hear that and see their actions as contributing (I don't know ... that's part of the learning I talk about). I don't want to shut them up. I know if someone tries to shut me up, unless they can get me banned, it won't be successful, so I don't expect someone else to hold back. Can you see that?

I don't know what all transpired between your attempt at suicide and today, but I'm certain it has been very difficult. It sounds to me, in my unprofessional opinion, that there may still be some healing that needs to take place with you. I can understand that. I'm hoping that you can also understand that men, like women, are individuals. Some men may have had bad experiences with women and, although it may not have been as bad as your experience, it flavors their view of the world. Would you not like to hear what their view is, and maybe be able to drill in and see what formed that opinion?


----------



## AFEH

Shy, I don’t reckon you are going to be able rationalise with a woman using logic and/or reasoning when their emotions are running so exceptionally high.


If it was a discussion about internal combustion engines, jet engines, electronics, software (that one’s debateable), nuclear physics etc. then it’d be totally different.


Now after saying all that as things stand it may just happen that she’ll see eye to eye with you. It’s how these things work with some women, most especially when they’re being big time emotional and have a point to prove no matter what.

It doesn’t get much more emotional than what Catherine speaks of and she probably triggers on things here on even seemingly mundane things to other people. Which of course means she still has PTSD very big time some 15 years after the event. That’s what she should be looking to solve. But she prefers to beat up on the men here.


----------



## LauraF

shy_guy said:


> Do you see as doing that? Or if you look at my previous post where I said I asked "Don't you want to learn the types of things I want to learn?" would it really be more consistent with that?
> 
> What I really see you doing is using a few euphemisms in your previous post to (all euphemisms removed from what follows): Tell those guys to be quiet. Tell them they can only speak what a certain woman (or group of women) approves of.
> 
> I'm not going to do that. I want them to think for themselves, and speak for themselves. Truth is, even if someone tried to step up and get those guys to think or speak a certain way, they're not going to - nobody, including you nor I, has that kind of power over someone else's mind when they want to think for themselves.
> 
> So since we don't have that kind of power, then maybe we should ask ourselves why they think that way. I chose the example of someone saying that they felt that things female were portrayed as morally superior and things men as base and dumb. I can definitely see that portrayed in commercials for example. The reason I chose this was both because I can see where some of that is coming from, and because I thought it would be obvious when I asked the questions that taking the approach that you are suggesting would be an example of that very thing.
> 
> I think it is better in this case to ask why they would think that. Is there anything, like commercials or posters on this board, that would help to confirm that in some men's minds?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catherine, I'm very sorry this happened to you. However; I think you can see by now that not all men are like this guy. In fact most of us get very angry in a very deep way when we hear about these types of things. Actually, I can't even watch a movie about rape because it stirs such strong negative feelings in me, and it takes a long time for me to recover and put my energy back where it needs to be.
> 
> I hope that conversations on here are helpful to you. However; other people have different experiences, and you may be hearing some of those experiences coming out in their posts. It may be that they are expressing it in some of the statements you find offensive, but I don't think that was what was behind their statements. I think there is SOMETHING behind it, and it may be attitudes of women they know. In such a case, I think it is very healthy if they get to express their frustrations - maybe others hear that and see their actions as contributing (I don't know ... that's part of the learning I talk about). I don't want to shut them up. I know if someone tries to shut me up, unless they can get me banned, it won't be successful, so I don't expect someone else to hold back. Can you see that?
> 
> I don't know what all transpired between your attempt at suicide and today, but I'm certain it has been very difficult. It sounds to me, in my unprofessional opinion, that there may still be some healing that needs to take place with you. I can understand that. I'm hoping that you can also understand that men, like women, are individuals. Some men may have had bad experiences with women and, although it may not have been as bad as your experience, it flavors their view of the world. Would you not like to hear what their view is, and maybe be able to drill in and see what formed that opinion?


You know the poll done about cheating: Would you do it if you could get away with it?

There's a poll like that done by UCLA. Would you rape a woman if you could get away with it. The majority of men said yes and almost all of them admitted to rape fantasys. Its not that crazy to assume that every guy wants to get into your pants and unfortunately some would to it witout concent.


----------



## Catherine602

Shy we are going in circles. You are asking me to be understanding in a way that you claim men should not be required to do. You complain that women think they are morally superior but don't you think you are making the same assumption? . . 

You want women to be understand about the negative perception of that men have because it comes out of their experience admonish me for what you perceive as making faulty assumptions. 

You are asking me to rise above my experience but indulge men who cannot do the same.

I think I can generalize safely here and say that most men are able to forgive and forget more readily than many women. The complaint that a women can bring up hurts from 20 years in the past. 

The average man can't remember a hurtful thing that his wife said last week. That male quality makes men much better able to give up generalities and relate to women as individuals. 

I will leave this alone I think I am doing more harm than good.


----------



## 2nd_t!me iz_best

maybe i dont have a 'regular' male brain but i havent seen anything that catherine602 has said in the forum that i would consider male bashing.

i do see her speak her mind when certain men here get together in what seems a pack mentality in trying to group all women into some evil category.

i see the same from men when certain women try to categorize all men into some evil group too.

really, i just dont see it in the same way as some of you men here do.

i have done the same thing, taken things that someone has said to me that should have made me think, instead i took as bashing and attacking. that was at least a part of what cost me my last relationship.

i think maybe catherine also says things that do make some of you think and you dont like what you see so it is then turned into something easier for you to handle. she is attacking.
not so.

honestly think about some of the things she says and what you see about yourself from it and deal with that.


----------



## FrankKissel

AFEH said:


> Shy, I don’t reckon you are going to be able rationalise with a woman using logic and/or reasoning when their emotions are running so exceptionally high.
> 
> 
> If it was a discussion about internal combustion engines, jet engines, electronics, software (that one’s debateable), nuclear physics etc. then it’d be totally different.
> 
> 
> Now after saying all that as things stand it may just happen that she’ll see eye to eye with you. It’s how these things work with some women, most especially when they’re being big time emotional and have a point to prove no matter what.
> 
> It doesn’t get much more emotional than what Catherine speaks of and she probably triggers on things here on even seemingly mundane things to other people. Which of course means she still has PTSD very big time some 15 years after the event. That’s what she should be looking to solve. But she prefers to beat up on the men here.


Pretty sure it's not humanly possible to be any more obnoxiously patronizing than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LauraF

FrankKissel said:


> Pretty sure it's not humanly possible to be any more obnoxiously patronizing than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am pretty sure he's related to John Grey
"Women and machinery do not mix"


----------



## shy_guy

Catherine602 said:


> Shy we are going in circles. You are asking me to be understanding in a way that you claim men should not be required to do. You complain that women think they are morally superior but don't you think you are making the same assumption? . .
> 
> You want women to be understand about the negative perception of that men have because it comes out of their experience admonish me for what you perceive as making faulty assumptions.
> 
> You are asking me to rise above my experience but indulge men who cannot do the same.
> 
> I think I can generalize safely here and say that most men are able to forgive and forget more readily than many women. The complaint that a women can bring up hurts from 20 years in the past.
> 
> The average man can't remember a hurtful thing that his wife said last week. That male quality makes men much better able to give up generalities and relate to women as individuals.
> 
> I will leave this alone I think I am doing more harm than good


Catherine, remember earlier when I said that later in our discussions I see you beginning to squirm as you try to defend indefensible positions you take. Here is an example of this, and this is why I think that:


Through our discussion, you have made several of these types of claims or accusations toward me - things I did not intend in my post, but you seemed to be concluding this. In these cases, I have tried to ask questions like "Do you see me doing this?" or say things like "I don't think I am doing that." These are *open invitations to you* to show me where I am doing this. You can quote me the same way I have quoted you on previous exchanges when you have challenged me on my conclusions about you. I am hoping you will, and asking you to do this very thing. You have not done this with a single one of these invitations. Why? Is it that my words are not supporting your conclusions? This is what I am beginning to conclude.

When I have referred to things I have concluded in reading your posts in this thread, or when I have answered your objections with your words, I have either included the quote inline, or else I have referred to the post that you or I made while giving my answer. Is this not true?


I try to account for my confirmation bias, cognitive bias, and cognitive dissonance, but after a few years of working in R&D, I know first hand how difficult it is to do that even in matters where emotional involvement should be minimal. We all have confirmation bias, cognitive bias, and cognitive dissonance. The peer review and debate on my job is supposed to help eliminate as much of this as possible. I'm sure we're still not perfect at it, though.


Because of how difficult it is for each of us to account for our cognitive selves, I consider it is a perfectly legitimate debate tactic for you to quote me and show me where you are drawing your conclusions such as this:



Catherine602 said:


> You want women to be understand about the negative perception of that men have because it comes out of their experience admonish me for what you perceive as making faulty assumptions.
> 
> You are asking me to rise above my experience but indulge men who cannot do the same.


 
But I continue to see you not doing this when I ask you to show me. What am I supposed to conclude when you continue to throw assertions like this out without support?


What I think of what I have done is that I have not said that anyone should not speak. I have said (as I believe) that the people SHOULD SPEAK in thier own words, and we should read them in their own words to try to determine where their opinions come from, and understand that. We should learn from that. We should see if it applies in our situations, and if so, we should apply it. Have I not done this in my direct discussion with you? If not, then please show me where I have not. What it looks like to me is when I ask questions about where someone else's opinion comes from, rather than seek that out, you are telling me that I am defending that person and not doing the same with you. The only thing I'm defending is that I think someone should be able to speak an opinion that I, or anyone else on here, do not agree with.

Let's review why I am in this discussion with you:


If you go back through our discussion, look again that I posted, then deleted, and that primarily in response to your statement about "Women are not the problem. Men are the problem." I admitted I got emotional at that point. I went back and deleted it thinking I did not want to debate it, and that you had some points even if I thought you had some flaws in your statement. You then asked me where that post went, and wanted to pick up the debate. You also said you wanted to debate logically. I picked it up with you again in response. 

I'm asking you to debate with me here in what I see to be a logical manner. I've invited you to do that. I've pointed out places where I thought you've jumped to conclusions without support and invited you to support those conclusions. I don't think you would feel you are hurting your cause if you read through my posts, recognized what I was doing in our discussion (especially the part about inviting you to see what there might be to learn from what others are saying - not trying to quiet you nor them), and had responded to my invitations to support your claims. If they're not supported, then that would be a time to either clarify, or to rethink your position as you said you do when shown something logically. 

Do you see me being consistent with what I claim to be doing? Do you want to continue the discussion based on that? It's up to you.

*EDIT:* I do recognize that your experience was very traumatic, and has a lot of emotion behind it. I did not intend to make light of that. We said we were going to have a logical discussion, so while taking that into account, I did want to point out that the conclusions you draw from that guy will not apply to all of us. We are not all that guy.


----------



## shy_guy

AFEH said:


> Shy, I don’t reckon you are going to be able rationalise with a woman using logic and/or reasoning when their emotions are running so exceptionally high.
> 
> 
> If it was a discussion about internal combustion engines, jet engines, electronics, software (that one’s debateable), nuclear physics etc. then it’d be totally different.
> 
> 
> Now after saying all that as things stand it may just happen that she’ll see eye to eye with you. It’s how these things work with some women, most especially when they’re being big time emotional and have a point to prove no matter what.
> 
> It doesn’t get much more emotional than what Catherine speaks of and she probably triggers on things here on even seemingly mundane things to other people. Which of course means she still has PTSD very big time some 15 years after the event. That’s what she should be looking to solve. But she prefers to beat up on the men here.


I think I can reason with most people, men or women. 

PTSD ... I'm not qualified to diagnose that. She can tell me whether or not she has it if she so chooses since it sounds like she's been through therapy and would know. 

The point of my discussion with her is not really to see eye to eye, though. I'll let her decide whether or not she wants to continue it. I'm coming up on the limit of time I can spend on it as well, so if she decides to continue, I'll still have to bow out at some point.


----------



## shy_guy

LauraF said:


> You know the poll done about cheating: Would you do it if you could get away with it?
> 
> There's a poll like that done by UCLA. Would you rape a woman if you could get away with it. The majority of men said yes and almost all of them admitted to rape fantasys. Its not that crazy to assume that every guy wants to get into your pants and unfortunately some would to it witout concent.


Laura, I'm trying to find the thread again. If it's the one I'm thinking of, then I answered in it, but didn't vote in the poll. The reason was that I had trouble with the wording. IIRC, the question used the words "With no consequences" or something like that, and I couldn't get my head around that. Even if it gave me something to compare my wife with, it was a consequence, so I couldn't think in that context. I also couldn't separate myself from my moral thinking enough to evaluate it. IIRC, several of the posts in the thread indicated others may have had trouble with wording in the same way. The only thing I could post was to say "No. We don't allow anyone else in our relationship" or something along those lines. 

The poll, if we're talking about the same thing, and if I find it again, is interesting I'll admit. But keep in mind that the population of this poll is not men in general. It polls a population of men from an affinity group (TAM). My impression from reading and asking on TAM is that most of the people here are either in troubled/unhappy relationships, or have recently been there. Not all of us here fit that description, but I think probably most. So the population of men in happy relationships is under-represented I think. What do you think along these lines?

I'm not familiar with the study from UCLA. It sounds like one I would be interested in reading. I'm particularly interested in the population used on the study (based on a previous study from UCLA that I read), and read the internals/methods of the study, and the questions asked. Do you have a link to this study? I'll be happy to discuss it with you if I can read it first.

As I understand, many women have forced sex fantasies as well. The forced sex is varying in degrees. My wife has some fantasies like this to some degrees, but she doesn't really want to be forced into sex like her fantasies. As I've discussed in other threads, a lot of people, myself included, have fantasies that we do not want to happen in the real world. They make for some fun role-play, but they will not be carried out. Would you agree with that statement? If so, then it will be important to keep that in mind when reading answers to questions.

Even with all of those considerations, I will agree with your conclusion that it is not unreasonable to conclude that some men want to get into your pants without consent. I would extend that to emphasize "some." There are some of us that don't want into your pants with or without your consent. When dealing with us that fit that last statement, might it be harmful to come into discussions or professional relationships with the opposite conclusion?


----------



## LauraF

shy_guy said:


> Laura, I'm trying to find the thread again. If it's the one I'm thinking of, then I answered in it, but didn't vote in the poll. The reason was that I had trouble with the wording. IIRC, the question used the words "With no consequences" or something like that, and I couldn't get my head around that. Even if it gave me something to compare my wife with, it was a consequence, so I couldn't think in that context. I also couldn't separate myself from my moral thinking enough to evaluate it. IIRC, several of the posts in the thread indicated others may have had trouble with wording in the same way. The only thing I could post was to say "No. We don't allow anyone else in our relationship" or something along those lines.
> 
> The poll, if we're talking about the same thing, and if I find it again, is interesting I'll admit. But keep in mind that the population of this poll is not men in general. It polls a population of men from an affinity group (TAM). My impression from reading and asking on TAM is that most of the people here are either in troubled/unhappy relationships, or have recently been there. Not all of us here fit that description, but I think probably most. So the population of men in happy relationships is under-represented I think. What do you think along these lines?
> 
> I'm not familiar with the study from UCLA. It sounds like one I would be interested in reading. I'm particularly interested in the population used on the study (based on a previous study from UCLA that I read), and read the internals/methods of the study, and the questions asked. Do you have a link to this study? I'll be happy to discuss it with you if I can read it first.
> 
> As I understand, many women have forced sex fantasies as well. The forced sex is varying in degrees. My wife has some fantasies like this to some degrees, but she doesn't really want to be forced into sex like her fantasies. As I've discussed in other threads, a lot of people, myself included, have fantasies that we do not want to happen in the real world. They make for some fun role-play, but they will not be carried out. Would you agree with that statement? If so, then it will be important to keep that in mind when reading answers to questions.
> 
> Even with all of those considerations, I will agree with your conclusion that it is not unreasonable to conclude that some men want to get into your pants without consent. I would extend that to emphasize "some." There are some of us that don't want into your pants with or without your consent. When dealing with us that fit that last statement, might it be harmful to come into discussions or professional relationships with the opposite conclusion?


I ofund these bt I coudn t find teh article i originally had

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamuth/pdf/81Jsi37.pdf

A bit of proof that men are not basically good—Dominic Bnonn Tennant


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
I only claim to understand two things really well:
- My Wife
- The evolutionary process of natural selection

My generalizations about women are based on triangulating from those 2 places and blending in what I read here. 

If you take a group who have had to compensate for:
1. A distinct disadvantage in physical size and muscle mass (for 50,000+ generations)
2. A giant handicap in any commercial endeavors and (for at least 1,000 generations)
3. A very hostile legal system (my grasp of history is insufficient for me to estimate duration here)

What do you get? 

The only reason the "spread" between men and women is not bigger is that we share genes. So we benefit from your strength and vice versa. 

Still, the handicaps are being removed. And the result is scary to the "standard male". You married the tip of the gene pool so this may not manifest itself so clearly in your day to day.

IME - the best way to have a great relationship with a woman, is to selectively be - more like a woman. And selectively remain extremely male. 

Now I am off to bake a batch of chinese fortune cookies.


----------



## shy_guy

LauraF said:


> I ofund these bt I coudn t find teh article i originally had
> 
> http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/malamuth/pdf/81Jsi37.pdf
> 
> A bit of proof that men are not basically good—Dominic Bnonn Tennant


The second is a blog that seems to either quote parts of the study you posted, and be very innacurate in others, or it is trying to cite another study that we don't have. I'm going to have to see the source for that before I can place much credence in the claims.

The first is the research paper, and it is pretty good. I think it is significant that the date of this is 1981 since some of the factors in society that were claimed by the feminist groups in the first page of the study have changed significantly since 1981 (so I think). It would be good if we could find a more recent study to see if there are differences.

On the claim of percentage of men who are likely to rape, what I draw from the reading is:

When rape is not described in a violent manner, on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being "no likelihood" and 5 being "certainty," 35% of the sampling (mostly college students) indicate a 2 or higher on their likelihood to commit rape. 20% self identify as a 3 or higher.

When given a violent description of rape, the percentage drops to 10% indicating 2 or higher. 

The other side of this is that without a violent description, 65% indicate 1 (no likelihood) and with the violent description, 90% indicate 1 (no likelihood) to commit rape of that nature. 

The main note I had on the population is that college age students are going to typically be under 25 years of age, not married, and have no children. If I'm correct on this, then it would be significant in my mind to expand the population of the study to other age groups as I think mentally and emotionally, we continue to develop and mature throughout life. It may also be significant if the population is extended outside of college students of that age group. I don't think we can identify the tendencies of males in general from the population in the study. 

The notes I made as I read through follow. This is my attempt on reading through to get relevant discussion points for us to begin discussion of the study. I invite you to add discussion points that you found relevant since your viewpoint is going to be significantly different from mine:

Population: Men who have not necessarily actually raped. ... These men, *mostly college students* came from varied parts of North America including the Los Angeles and Stanford areas in California, and the Winnipeg area in Canada.

Question (Page 140): Typically, they were askied to indicate their responses on a five point scale ranging from (1) not at all likely to (5) very likely. This question was asked under a variety of conditions such as following the viewing of a videotaped interview with an actual rape victim, following the reading of a pornographic description of rape, and without any prior "exposure treatment" at all. While, as might be expected, there was some variability in the distribution of responses across studies, in general there was a great deal of consistency in that a sizeable percentage of the respondents indicated some likelihood of raping. Across these varied studies, an average of about 35% of males indicated any likelihood at all of raping (i.e., a 2 or above on the scale) and an average of about 20% indicated higher likelihoods (i.e., a 3 or above).

<my words> Note these numbers are all derived from self-identification</my words>

...

Without additional data, the hypothetical nature of this question (i.e., if you could be assured of not being caught) makes it difficult to judge whether it reveals any socially meaningful information. 

Questions as reading: Some "Rape myths" that are believed by a higher percentage of rape offenders are defined, but only 2 or 3. I'm not sure what all is defined as a "Rape myth."

On Page 144: Higher LR scores have been consistently shown to be positively and significantly related to the belief that other men would rape if they knew they could avoid being caught, to identification with rapists in depictions of rape, to perceptinos that rape victims cause and derive pleasure from such assaults (in fictionalized portrayals and in an actual interview with a rape victim), and with the belief that women in general secretly desire and enjoy such victimization. 

Note: Page 146 really makes the data on types of arousal doubtful as it says: "However, other studies show that rape stimuli are as sexually arousing as consenting depictions to non-rapists." Note that this statement seems to be at odds with other cited studies, though.

Page 151, (Paraphrasing) when asked about rape with no description of the nature of the rape, 35% indicated some liklihood of raping after reading the non-violent version. 10% responded likely after reading the violent version. Interpretations of these follow in the second paragraph of the second column on P151. The necessary follow-up to clarify doesn't seem to have been pursued according to the paper.

(Personal note: The description from "Marquis de Sade" made me nearly physically ill ... Very upset after just reading these two sentences ... This is why I don't spend much time in this area, and why I can't watch a movie that involves rape.)

Definitions of what is rape on page 152 in the Agressive Behavior section, and the discussion seems to indicate that what is considered acceptable changes as the boys mature. The only real conclusive thing on this page is that 8% of women and 3% of males reported physical force such as arm twisting being used in coercing someone or being coerced to have sexual intercourse, and the significant (but undefined in terms of significance) correlation between LR ratings and the subjects' reports that they personally have used force against females in sexual relations and may do so again in the future. 

The "Directions for future research" asks many of the questions I had as reading through, such as the 'fear of the "hidden forces" that he believes to lurk within him.' It asks a number of other good questions such as the likelihood that someone may actually seek out situations to engage in sexual aggression after learning that he is sexually aroused by rape depictions. The need to better define rape myths and develop a more realistic view of rape than is commonly held by people or presented within the mass media is also mentioned.

Mentioned in the leadin (not on the abstract) but not mentioned in the direction for further research is the development of "traditional sex roles and mysogynous forces within society." There have been so many cultural changes in the US since 1981, that this may also be significant.


----------



## LauraF

shy_guy said:


> The second is a blog that seems to either quote parts of the study you posted, and be very innacurate in others, or it is trying to cite another study that we don't have. I'm going to have to see the source for that before I can place much credence in the claims.
> 
> The first is the research paper, and it is pretty good. I think it is significant that the date of this is 1981 since some of the factors in society that were claimed by the feminist groups in the first page of the study have changed significantly since 1981 (so I think). It would be good if we could find a more recent study to see if there are differences.
> 
> On the claim of percentage of men who are likely to rape, what I draw from the reading is:
> 
> When rape is not described in a violent manner, on a scale of 1 to 5 with 1 being "no likelihood" and 5 being "certainty," 35% of the sampling (mostly college students) indicate a 2 or higher on their likelihood to commit rape. 20% self identify as a 3 or higher.
> 
> When given a violent description of rape, the percentage drops to 10% indicating 2 or higher.
> 
> The other side of this is that without a violent description, 65% indicate 1 (no likelihood) and with the violent description, 90% indicate 1 (no likelihood) to commit rape of that nature.
> 
> The main note I had on the population is that college age students are going to typically be under 25 years of age, not married, and have no children. If I'm correct on this, then it would be significant in my mind to expand the population of the study to other age groups as I think mentally and emotionally, we continue to develop and mature throughout life. It may also be significant if the population is extended outside of college students of that age group. I don't think we can identify the tendencies of males in general from the population in the study.
> 
> The notes I made as I read through follow. This is my attempt on reading through to get relevant discussion points for us to begin discussion of the study. I invite you to add discussion points that you found relevant since your viewpoint is going to be significantly different from mine:
> 
> Population: Men who have not necessarily actually raped. ... These men, *mostly college students* came from varied parts of North America including the Los Angeles and Stanford areas in California, and the Winnipegarea in Canada.
> 
> Question (Page 140): Typically, they were askied to indicate their responses on a five point scale ranging from (1) not at all likely to (5) very likely. This question was asked under a variety of conditions such as following the viewing of a videotaped interview with an actual rape victim, following the reading of a pornographic description of rape, and without any prior "exposure treatment" at all. While, as might be expected, there was some variability in the distribution of responses across studies, in general there was a great deal of consistency in that a sizeable percentage of the respondents indicated some likelihood of raping. Across these varied studies, an average of about 35% of males indicated any likelihood at all of rapine (i.e., a 2 or above on the scale) and an average of about 20% indicated higher likelihoods (i.e., a 3 or above).
> 
> <my words> Note these numbers are all derived from self-identification</my words>
> 
> ...
> 
> Without additional data, the hypothetical nature of this question (i.e., if you could be assured of not being caught) makes it difficult to judge whether it reveals any socially meaningful information.
> 
> Questions as reading: Some "Rape myths" that are beleived by a higher percentage of rape offenders are defined, but only 2 or 3. I'm not sure what all is defined as a "Rape myth."
> 
> On Page 144: Higher LR scores have been consistently shown to be positively and significantly related to the belief that other men would rape if they knew they could avoid being caught, to identification with rapists in depictions of rape, to perceptinos that rape victims cause and derive pleasure from such assaults (in fictionalized portrayals and in an actual interview with a rape victim), and with the believe that women in general secretly desire and enjoy such victimization.
> 
> Note: Page 146 really makes the data on types of arousal doubtful as it says: "However, other studies show that rape stimuli are as sexually arousing as consenting depictions to non-rapists." Note that this statement seems to be at odds with other cited studies, though.
> 
> Page 151, (Paraphrasing) when asked about rape with no description of the nature of the rape, 35% indicated some liklihood of raping after reading the non-violent version. 10% responded likely after reading teh violent version. Interpretations of these follow in the second paragraph of the second column on P151. The necessary follow-up to clarify doesn't seem to have been pursued according to the paper.
> 
> (Personal note: The description from "Marquis de Sade" made me nearly physically ill ... Very upset after just reading these two sentences ... This is why I don't spend much time in this area, and why I can't watch a movie that involves rape.
> 
> Definitions of what is rape of page 152 in the Agressive Behavior section, and the discussion seems to indicate that what is considered acceptable changes as the boys mature. The only real conclusive thing on this page is that 8% of women and 3% of males reported physical force such as arm twisting being used in coercing someone or being coerced to have sexual intercourse, and the significant (but undefined in terms of significance) correlation between LR ratings and teh subjects' reports that they personally have used force against females in sexual relations and may do so again in the future.
> 
> The "Directions for future research" asks many of the questions I had as reading through, such as the 'fear of teh "hidden forces" that he believes to lurk within him." It asks a number of other good questions such as the likelihood that someone may actually seek out situations to engage in sexual aggression after learning that he is sexually aroused by rape depictions. The need to better define rape myths and develop a more realistic view of rape than is commonly held by people or presented within the mass media is also mentioned.
> 
> Mentioned in the leadin (but on the abstract) but not mentioned in the direction for further research is the development of "traditional sex roles and mysogynous forces within society." There have been so many cultural changes in the US since 1981, that this may also be significant.


I know this is a slap in the face considering all the work youve done analysing the study, but does de Sade actually delve into depictions of rape in his books? I thought he only implies them in Justine.


----------



## shy_guy

LauraF said:


> I know this is a slap in the face considering all the work youve done analysing the study, but does de Sade actually delve into depictions of rape in his books? I thought he only implies them in Justine.


It's not a slap in the face. It's a legitimate question.

I will give you the quote from the study. Given the nature of the quote, I really do NOT want to read anymore from the book nor the person interviewed. I'm not exaggerating when I talk about how it affects me - It's BAD ... and I want to leave it here when I get up from the computer - I don't want to dwell on this. 

I can't copy/paste from the PDF, so I'll type it. Please understand if I make a typo:



> The book _Marquis de Sade_ stands out most in my recent memory - the brutality made it stand out so clearly. One scene in particular stands out when a guy had this girl hanging with a noose around her neck and screwing her at the same time; then when he finished, he kicked the basket out from under her. I learned that I got turned on by brutality.


To clarify, and I missed this in the emotion on first reading, this is a rapist's words when interviewed by Goldstein & Kant (1973) regarding how he first learned that he was attracted to violence. Goldstein and Kant refers to a study cited in the paper (See page 156 for the footnote to the study).


----------



## Catherine602

I feel uncomfortable with bringing out sociological studies that seem to support the badness of men. Do a google search using women insteed of men the search term. We don't rape but we are human and our behavior runs the spectrum of human behavior. You are falling into the same mental trap as the men who had bad relationships and view women as evil. 

We don't want them to generalize and it won't help if we throw stones at each other. Let acknowledge that personal experience has a profound effect on humans and our view is clouded. 

If you are robed by a gang of teens, groups of teens may make you nervous. It is human. What is not good is to make general negative statements and accept them as true. It is temporary and the natural reaction of a person who has been wounded. The operative word is temporary. If you think that, you will embark on a journey to come back to a hopeful positivity. A belief that the negativity is true keeps people living a double life. 

You enter a new relationship with someone you view as the enemy dressed in nice clothing, wearing makeup and perfume. If she does something that plays into your negative view you go from 0 to 100 on the anger scale. You will probably confuse your partner. ,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Shy, I don’t reckon you are going to be able rationalise with a woman using logic and/or reasoning when their emotions are running so exceptionally high.
> 
> 
> If it was a discussion about internal combustion engines, jet engines, electronics, software (that one’s debateable), nuclear physics etc. then it’d be totally different.
> 
> 
> Now after saying all that as things stand it may just happen that she’ll see eye to eye with you. It’s how these things work with some women, most especially when they’re being big time emotional and have a point to prove no matter what.
> 
> It doesn’t get much more emotional than what Catherine speaks of and she probably triggers on things here on even seemingly mundane things to other people. Which of course means she still has PTSD very big time some 15 years after the event. That’s what she should be looking to solve. But she prefers to beat up on the men here.


Please. You cannot psychologically diagnose away reason and logic. You are so keen on no win situations in regards to women you dislike because they do not fit your proper and preferred depiction of women that it's not even funny. 

Show me one person whose experience does not make them predisposed to assume or associate certain points of view based on their experience and I swear I'll give you a thousand dollars. You won't find it within either gender because, guess what, our experiences absolutely play a role in how we interpret things.

For all the free passes you give to men, you really need to start handing some out to women that you disagree with, and in the meantime, try taking a look at why you are so reluctant to hand them out to women unless they agree with you.

Walk hand in hand...pfft...if they agree with you _perhaps_.


----------



## MEM2020

Well add me in as a data point here:
1. I have had plenty of rape fantasies. None of them injurious. That said, the real deal. If acted on exactly as imagined I would be in prison.
2. I have had several partners who wanted to go beyond playfully dominant, mildly rough and in fact pushed me into a simulated rape scenario

In those situations, the real life - pretend rape - I could barely stay hard, felt anxious and sad and shaped our sex life away from that. FYI: my partners had no idea what was transmuting in my head and frankly seemed to find the whole experience rather exciting and arousing.

I will add one bit to this. For me "no" always meant no. When asked to stop I did. I am keenly aware that somewhere out there are plenty of guys with less empathy and impulse control. I imagine that for them the fantasy and the reality are not different as they are for me. I don't like this wiring I have inside me. O have a term for it "bad primate DNA".

That same DNA expressed in women shows up when you see them super turned on by male-on-male violence.





QUOTE=Catherine602;668621]I feel uncomfortable with bringing out sociological studies that seem to support the badness of men. Do a google search using women insteed of men the search term. We don't rape but we are human and our behavior runs the spectrum of human behavior. You are falling into the same mental trap as the men who had bad relationships and view women as evil. 

We don't want them to generalize and it won't help if we throw stones at each other. Let acknowledge that personal experience has a profound effect on humans and our view is clouded. 

If you are robed by a gang of teens, groups of teens may make you nervous. It is human. What is not good is to make general negative statements and accept them as true. It is temporary and the natural reaction of a person who has been wounded. The operative word is temporary. If you think that, you will embark on a journey to come back to a hopeful positivity. A belief that the negativity is true keeps people living a double life. 

You enter a new relationship with someone you view as the enemy dressed in nice clothing, wearing makeup and perfume. If she does something that plays into your negative view you go from 0 to 100 on the anger scale. You will probably confuse your partner. ,
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MominMayberry

What has happened to some of the men here that they hate women so much? I have read here for months and see the same thing. Most men in my world are nice and great men. They dont lump women in to a type and they know every body is different. What is going on here? 
I also find it odd that those who hate so much wonder why are so unhappy in the marriage. Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? You cant hate some one so much and then want them to do so much for you. If you hate women you have to know that they know you do and dont want much to do with you. The same goes for women who hate men.


----------



## kittykat09

I am not exaggerating when I say reading some posts by some of the men on the forum leave me with a feeling of despair and sometimes terror regarding how much some of them hate women. Yes, hate. These "men" don't even think they hate women, but they do.

It makes me sick that it is so tolerated. It makes me sick that any attempt made by a woman to point out that hatred to those people is dismissed with contempt simply because people don't *want* to be told they are hateful (especially not by some uppity woman).

I'm not even talking about this thread specifically (although it sure has had its fair share of misogyny). I feel sorry for the real men who do value women who end up stuck in the crossfire, they certainly do not deserve it.


----------



## LauraF

kittykat09 said:


> I am not exaggerating when I say reading some posts by some of the men on the forum leave me with a feeling of despair and sometimes terror regarding how much some of them hate women. Yes, hate. Some men don't even think they hate women, but they do.
> 
> It makes me sick that it is so tolerated. It makes me sick that any attempt made by a woman to point out that hatred to those people is dismissed with contempt simply because people don't *want* to be told they are hateful (especially not by some uppity woman).
> 
> I'm not even talking about this thread specifically (although it sure has had its fair share of misogyny). I feel sorry for the real men who do value women who end up stuck in the crossfire, they certainly do not deserve it.


Oh god, you havent seen anything yet. This thread and TAm in general is tame. I hardly have seen any mysogyny on here.
Dont ever ask anything on yahoo answers, not even anything unrelated to relationships. They will find a way to turn it into something nasty, and its just no fun.
this forum is well taken care off in that regard, i think, thoug youre of course entitled to feel hurt by certain comments, I dont mean to talk it out of you

I think misandry is in pretty equal measures on here. I know I poke fun at the dudes and they seem to take with a good dose of humor. So far, most guys on here (and girls, too ) have been awesome. 
THere are a handful of guys on here I dont like but htey aare BAD


----------



## kittykat09

LauraF said:


> Oh god, you havent seen anything yet. This thread and TAm in general is tame. I hardly have seen any mysogyny on here.
> Dont ever ask anything on yahoo answers, not even anything unrelated to relationships. They will find a way to turn it into something nasty, and its just no fun.
> this forum is well taken care off in that regard, i think, thoug youre of course entitled to feel hurt by certain comments, I dont mean to talk it out of you
> 
> I think misandry is in pretty equal measures on here. I know I poke fun at the dudes and they seem to take with a good dose of humor. So far, most guys on here (and girls, too ) have been awesome.
> THere are a handful of guys on here I dont like but htey aare BAD


I don't agree with misandry either, but it is not present in anywhere near the amount misogyny is on TAM (and IRL).

ETA: By "I don't agree with misandry either" I really do mean that- I think hatred based on gender, race, sexual orientation, whatever is a disservice to everyone and none of it should be tolerated. 

And you're right, there are only a handful of actual misogynists on this board but I hate running into them in threads and seeing them sh!t all over women. I'm sorry that I have a vagina, it must be my fault that your wife thinks you are a pig.


----------



## LauraF

kittykat09 said:


> I don't agree with misandry either, but it is not present in anywhere near the amount misogyny is on TAM (and IRL).


Really? Wow, I am sorry you had to experience that.

I guess I was a bit luckier. Maybe I am just jaded and things cease to offend me, who knows. :scratchhead:


----------



## Browncoat

kittykat09 said:


> I don't agree with misandry either, but it is not present in anywhere near the amount misogyny is on TAM (and IRL).


Not sure about TAM in specific, but I'll say IRL I've experienced some very terribly hurtful misandry. Especially growing up, my dad dated a woman who was a major contributor to the local NOW (National Organization for Women) when I was very young.

You probably won't believe the terrible things those women told me even when I was just 7-12 years old. Let's just sum up by saying that I would be better off having my genitals mutilated in several ways so that I wouldn't grow up to become an "evil man". I am not exaggerating nor were they being sarcastic (they said it with obvious anger in their voices). Just saying misandry is alive and well in the real world and it's about as malicious and misinformed as any misogyny.

I've forgiven them, but some things can't be forgotten... especially when repeated over the years to an impressionable child.


----------



## MominMayberry

kittykat09 said:


> I am not exaggerating when I say reading some posts by some of the men on the forum leave me with a feeling of despair and sometimes terror regarding how much some of them hate women. Yes, hate. These "men" don't even think they hate women, but they do.
> 
> It makes me sick that it is so tolerated. It makes me sick that any attempt made by a woman to point out that hatred to those people is dismissed with contempt simply because people don't *want* to be told they are hateful (especially not by some uppity woman).
> 
> I'm not even talking about this thread specifically (although it sure has had its fair share of misogyny). I feel sorry for the real men who do value women who end up stuck in the crossfire, they certainly do not deserve it.


Forgive my English I am not native. I have met many men who have honor. They love women and honor them as well. Why act with anger to the women you want to love you? I guess they dont want love. They want anger. 
A guy named Mem just said he has rape fantasies. Raping a woman in his mind gets him hard. He said it was harm less. He said that it was the unpainful kind of rape and made it sound normal. No. He wants to power over a woman so much that he has dreams about it and that turns him on. I wonder if he has girls. Have they ever been raped. I have at the age of 16 and it isnt a dream to me. It isnt unpainful. It is disgusting.


----------



## kittykat09

Browncoat said:


> Not sure about TAM in specific, but I'll say IRL I've experienced some very terribly hurtful misandry. Especially growing up, my dad dated a woman who was a major contributor to the local NOW (National Organization for Women) when I was very young.
> 
> You probably won't believe the terrible things those women told me even when I was just 7-12 years old. Let's just sum up by saying that I would be better off having my genitals mutilated in several ways so that I wouldn't grow up to become an "evil man". I am not exaggerating nor were they being sarcastic (they said it with obvious anger in their voices). Just saying misandry is alive and well in the real world and it's about as malicious and misinformed as any misogyny.
> 
> I've forgiven them, but some things can't be forgotten... especially when repeated over the years to an impressionable child.


 What the bloody eff?! That's terrible and absolutely freaking messed up!

I don't mean to belittle the misandry that does happen by saying misogyny is more prevalent, I swear I don't. I think misandry is practiced by women who are equally ignorant and hateful to misogynistic men, and sometimes it can even be scarier (like when they take it to a revenge level like the women you encountered- seriously. messed. up). That kind of hatred is toxic and should never be considered acceptable from either side. :/


----------



## LauraF

MominMayberry said:


> Forgive my English I am not native. I have met many men who have honor. They love women and honor them as well. Why act with anger to the women you want to love you? I guess they dont want love. They want anger.
> A guy named Mem just said he has rape fantasies. Raping a woman in his mind gets him hard. He said it was harm less. He said that it was the unpainful kind of rape and made it sound normal. No. He wants to power over a woman so much that he has dreams about it and that turns him on. I wonder if he has girls. Have they ever been raped. I have at the age of 16 and it isnt a dream to me. It isnt unpainful. It is disgusting.


Can I jump to the poor guys rescue here?
He shouldnt have said that. Not because it was vile or base or untrue, but because a rape victim will never understand rape fantasies.
I am a woman and I have them. I am quite into them. Its about being wanted so much that the man could not hold back. Its almost animalistic. And because I am super btchy in real life. Being dominated, maybe even humiliated a bit is the ultimate turn on for me. What works IRL for me would never work ni bed. THats whats so great about fantasies. They can go anywhere and harm no one (not obsessive illegal paraphilias, they do harm people)
But - I would never confuse it with real life. Neither would he. Not a chance in hell, if he was sincere.
My concern was that people in the study said they would do it in real life if they could get away with it.


And please leave peoples daughters out of it.
I get why you said that. But tat is a harsh thing to say about a parent. It was unfounded IMHO


----------



## MominMayberry

LauraF said:


> Can I jump to the poor guys rescue here?
> He shouldnt have said that. Not because it was vile or base or untrue, but because a rape victim will never understand rape fantasies.
> I am a woman and I have them. I am quite into them. Its about being wanted so much that the man could not hold back. Its almost animalistic. And because I am super btchy in real life. Being dominated, maybe even humiliated a bit is the ultimate turn on for me. What works IRL for me would never work ni bed. THats whats so great about fantasies. They can go anywhere and harm no one (not obsessive illegal paraphilias, they do harm people)
> But - I would never confuse it with real life. Neither would he. Not a chance in hell, if he was sincere.
> My concern was that people in the study said they would do it in real life if they could get away with it.
> 
> 
> And please leave peoples daughters out of it.
> I get why you said that. But tat is a harsh thing to say about a parent. It was unfounded IMHO


It isnt about being wanted much as is about being treated like trash and used that way. I pray you never know what the other part is like. I dont dislike fantasies I just dont like this kind of them. Mem said if he could get away with them he would. I dont understand this kind of man. I dont like them and I dont respect them. Why should I leave the daughters out of it? If he has them I hope he sees them as women and all his rape fantasies could be his girls. What is so wrong with that? I dont think it harsh at all. He is having dreams about raping other fathers daughters. 
I dont know where you come from and I came from Macedonia. We stick together and what he is saying would rage all men.


----------



## Browncoat

kittykat09 said:


> What the bloody eff?! That's terrible and absolutely freaking messed up!
> 
> I don't mean to belittle the misandry that does happen by saying misogyny is more prevalent, I swear I don't. I think misandry is practiced by women who are equally ignorant and hateful to misogynistic men, and sometimes it can even be scarier (like when they take it to a revenge level like the women you encountered- seriously. messed. up). That kind of hatred is toxic and should never be considered acceptable from either side. :/


A lot of those women had gone through some terrible things, which made them very bitter towards men. I know my own anecdotal case is extreme... not many young boys are surrounded by outspoken feminist activists/extremists.

I agree with what you said Kitty that neither misogyny nor misandry should be accepted. The problem is when folks say group X is all one way. It rarely is true.

I just wanted to add something about your comment about misandry not being as common IRL (it exists). To a more mild extent my mom's sister and mother were both misandrists. Lots of talk when growing up that "men are X", "men are Y"... and neither X nor Y were admirable.


----------



## LauraF

MominMayberry said:


> It isnt about being wanted much as is about being treated like trash and used that way. I pray you never know what the other part is like. *I dont dislike fantasies I just dont like this kind of them. *Mem said if he could get away with them he would. I dont understand this kind of man. I dont like them and I dont respect them. Why should I leave the daughters out of it? If he has them I hope he sees them as women and all his rape fantasies could be his girls. What is so wrong with that? I dont think it harsh at all. He is having dreams about raping other fathers daughters.
> I dont know where you come from and I came from Macedonia. We stick together and what he is saying would rage all men.



They're my fantasies and I am entitled to have them. And please dont rectify why I have them, i think i know myself from Adam whereas you do not.


The "we stick together" stuff because you're form a certain country does so not go well with me. People are the same everywhere and if you think we are amoral because we are American then you know what I am going to say.


All that said, I am sorry if you know what rape is like firsthand.

I dont. I am glad I dont.

I have certain fantasies, they are just that. I have all kinds of fantasies that are not entirely legal, some not even in bed. The other year I imagined beating someone up, it was great. But i didnt do it. I know the difference between reality and dream world.


I am horrified by rape. I am horrified by its longterm effects, by what it does to people. It is one of the worst forms of torture.

But its nothing like what I imagine it in my head during intercourse. Thats somehting else entirely.


----------



## Browncoat

LauraF said:


> They're my fantasies and I am entitled to have them. And please dont rectify why I have them, i think i know myself from Adam whereas you do not.
> 
> 
> The "we stick together" stuff because you're form a certain country does so not go well with me. People are the same everywhere and if you think we are amoral because we are American then you know what I am going to say.
> 
> 
> All that said, I am sorry if you know what rape is like firsthand.
> 
> I dont. I am glad I dont.
> 
> I have certain fantasies, they are just that. I have all kinds of fantasies that are not entirely legal, some not even in bed. The other year I imagined beating someone up, it was great. But i didnt do it. I know the difference between reality and dream world.
> 
> 
> I am horrified by rape. I am horrified by its longterm effects, by what it does to people. It is one of the worst forms of torture.
> 
> But its nothing like what I imagine it in my head during intercourse. Thats somehting else entirely.


I think a decent analogy maybe something like this:

I like the TV show Dexter (about a serial killer). I may think he's an incredible character and it's a fascinating show, but no way I'd condone a real serial killer. One is just fantasy for entertainment purposes, the other (reality) is just sick.


----------



## LauraF

Browncoat said:


> I think a decent analogy maybe something like this:
> 
> I like the TV show Dexter (about a serial killer). I may think he's an incredible character and it's a fascinating show, but no way I'd condone a real serial killer. One is just fantasy for entertainment purposes, the other (reality) is just sick.


Dexter is an awesome show. Not too shabby of an analogy.


----------



## MominMayberry

Laura,
I am American as well. I was born in Macedonia and became a citizen of this country 21 years ago. I didnt say stick together. Wrong words. We take care of each other and that means all who came to this country. Im saying I have not seen this kind of anger before and the great people I have met here are not like the people on this website. Does that make sense?


----------



## kittykat09

Browncoat said:


> A lot of those women had gone through some terrible things, which made them very bitter towards men. I know my own anecdotal case is extreme... not many young boys are surrounded by outspoken feminist activists/extremists.
> 
> I agree with what you said Kitty that neither misogyny nor misandry should be accepted. The problem is when folks say group X is all one way. It rarely is true.
> 
> I just wanted to add something about your comment about misandry not being as common IRL (it exists). To a more mild extent my mom's sister and mother were both misandrists. Lots of talk when growing up that "men are X", "men are Y"... and neither X nor Y were admirable.


I shouldn't have stated that misogyny is more prevalent. A statement like that inherently places value on one thing over another (in this case, misogyny over misandry), and it isn't as simple as that. Misandry and misogyny are both seemingly on the rise in our society, and it is just bad in general that we still have problems addressing those things. 

It is easier for me to overlook some of the every-day misandry (like those god-awful commercials that make guys look like idiots while their wife saves the day- trust me, I find that demeaning to both genders) because I run into a lot of misogyny as well and, well, I find one more hurtful to myself. So I will readily admit that I am biased in that regard. I didn't mean to belittle misandry in any way, although I see how the way I made that statement certainly did and I apologize for that.

One of the saddest things about the whole thing is that misogynists can create misandrists and vice versa based on the extreme behavior people end up dealing with. The more each hatred is tolerated, the more polarized people will become about the issue and the harder it will be to disperse it. :/


----------



## LauraF

MominMayberry said:


> Laura,
> I am American as well. I was born in Macedonia and became a citizen of this country 21 years ago. I didnt say stick together I am saying I have not seen this kind of anger before. Does that make sense?


Not really. I dont think Macedonian men are any different, to be honest. All human beings are the same.




MominMayberry said:


> I dont know where you come from and I came from Macedonia. *We stick together* and what he is saying would rage all men.


----------



## MEM2020

Mom,
I am truly sorry I hit a trigger for you. And also sorry that someone harmed you when you were a child. I think perhaps you have completely misunderstood my post. Let me clarify it for you. In real life I have no desire to force any woman to do anything, much less have sex with me. Go read my post again. It is true that I never said "I have no desire to do this in real life (IRL), but so we are clear I have never wanted to and given a chance to do so with zero chance of discovery would not do so. I thought that was clear from the examples I gave where my sexual partners wanted to role play a "realistic rape scenario". Even in a role playing setting I found it rather upsetting. Note: what makes one hard in the completely abstract world of ones own mind is one thing. But even when already fully aroused, just "pretending" with a real partner was a turn off. 

When I have a partner - my wiring and cultural programming is the same: to serve and protect. Harming a partner is just - it feels profoundly wrong to me. I would never rape anyone, what an awful thought. As for why this is a turn on in my head - I repeat - bad primate DNA. Wish I didn't have it but I do. But what happens solely within the confines of my head - and what I do IRL, are often completely different. 

I have read that many women have rape fantasies - where they are the victim. I think most/all of them will tell you the same as I. They have no wish to experience the real thing in Real Life. 

I hope you find peace. And that you come to realize I am not your enemy. 


QUOTE=MominMayberry;668933]It isnt about being wanted much as is about being treated like trash and used that way. I pray you never know what the other part is like. I dont dislike fantasies I just dont like this kind of them. Mem said if he could get away with them he would. I dont understand this kind of man. I dont like them and I dont respect them. Why should I leave the daughters out of it? If he has them I hope he sees them as women and all his rape fantasies could be his girls. What is so wrong with that? I dont think it harsh at all. He is having dreams about raping other fathers daughters. 
I dont know where you come from and I came from Macedonia. We stick together and what he is saying would rage all men.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Goldmember357

Complexity said:


> When you've supposedly done something wrong and they expect you to know what it is.....


this and they always think they are right at least most of the time. Oh and they get mad when proven wrong at least sometimes.


----------



## Catherine602

I am sure MEM is self-possessed enough not to need me to state the obvious. But i will say it anyway. Mentally healthy people have fantisies that are criminal, violent or amoral in nature. It does not describe who they are or what they would do.. The risk of revealing fantasies is that you never know how the hearer will recieve the revelation. If the recipient of the fantasy revelation has had a bad experience in real life related to the fantasy. Of course, there is a strong negative reaction. That's why people hide them. 

We all have them, I think? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Laura,
Thank you. Usually I am more careful when addressing highly inflammatory topics. In this case I was not as clear, specific and complete as I should have been. Obviously you understood what I wrote. The last thing I want to do is trigger a sexual assault victim so I posted a clarification.

And I do have daughters. Truly I hope someday they marry men who love them and treat them as well as I treat their mom. 




LauraF said:


> Can I jump to the poor guys rescue here?
> He shouldnt have said that. Not because it was vile or base or untrue, but because a rape victim will never understand rape fantasies.
> I am a woman and I have them. I am quite into them. Its about being wanted so much that the man could not hold back. Its almost animalistic. And because I am super btchy in real life. Being dominated, maybe even humiliated a bit is the ultimate turn on for me. What works IRL for me would never work ni bed. THats whats so great about fantasies. They can go anywhere and harm no one (not obsessive illegal paraphilias, they do harm people)
> But - I would never confuse it with real life. Neither would he. Not a chance in hell, if he was sincere.
> My concern was that people in the study said they would do it in real life if they could get away with it.
> 
> 
> And please leave peoples daughters out of it.
> I get why you said that. But tat is a harsh thing to say about a parent. It was unfounded IMHO


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LauraF

MEM11363 said:


> Laura,
> Thank you. Usually I am more careful when addressing highly inflammatory topics. In this case I was not as clear, specific and complete as I should have been. Obviously you understood what I wrote. The last thing I want to do is trigger a sexual assault victim so I posted a clarification.
> 
> And I do have daughters. Truly I hope someday they marry men who love them and treat them as well as I treat their mom.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thumbs up, son. Completely gotcha and completele understood why MamaMayBerry was so hurt by what was said.
I hope she understand we're not freaks who mean to hurt her feelings


----------



## Goldmember357

MominMayberry said:


> It isnt about being wanted much as is about being treated like trash and used that way. I pray you never know what the other part is like. I dont dislike fantasies I just dont like this kind of them. Mem said if he could get away with them he would. I dont understand this kind of man. I dont like them and I dont respect them. Why should I leave the daughters out of it? If he has them I hope he sees them as women and all his rape fantasies could be his girls. What is so wrong with that? I dont think it harsh at all. He is having dreams about raping other fathers daughters.
> I dont know where you come from and I came from Macedonia. We stick together and what he is saying would rage all men.



I cant speak for all men but some and myself included has thought of rape and raping a woman like "i wonder what it would be like" or "i could rape her". I am just being honest how this entered my brain before i have no idea i blame tv/movies with violence in them. However i would never rape a woman i could not rape someone i could not do that at all its like torturing them it is. I could kill someone but not rape them if it came down to it i could kill but not rape someone. I dont like thinking about rape it's cruel. However i can understand a rape fantasy its about wanting power and to dominate a woman but for them to be into it secretly. At least that is how i think of a rape fantasy i would not ever want to have someone truly in fear or a real rape fantasy. 

However a person saying if they could get away with rape they would do it is rather sick.


Basically the world is a very horrible horrible place and its very twisted and sick i am religious not sure about other people but have certain maybe different views on the world than others.


----------



## LauraF

Goldmember357 said:


> However i can understand a rape fantasy its about wanting power and to dominate a woman* but for them to be into it secretly. *


This one is huge for guys (and some gals), as I have heard. Its in the rape study, too.
If the woman was shown liking it after a while it increased the men's response toward "would do it" drastically
At least if i remember the study correctly thats what it was


----------



## heartsbeating

shy_guy said:


> Do you ever see women get special treatment, or be rewarded for things the men are not rewarded for, or be promoted faster than their male counterparts in these male dominated fields?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not one to comment on male dominated fields regarding the workplace as I wouldn't be speaking from experience. What I was referring to, was a hobby/interest I had.

I think there needs to be ability and earned respect, if one is going to be taken seriously in any field, well, if it's going to be sustainable. I did originally write of the "flip-side" to my sentiment that included the mention of being a novelty too. This does happen. And now I'll loop you back to the start of this paragraph again. 

My reference was from years ago and what I wrote in the Ladies Lounge thread, was coming from the aspect of the original question about challenges with men. I focused on the small challenges I had noticed, with regards to when I was the only female in a male-dominated scene. I'm older and my 'reality' may be different if I was experiencing it now. 

I could write about challenges with women too but that wasn't the thread that was posted in the Lounge. I think interactions with men _and_ women can be challenging...that doesn't mean it's necessarily a negative though.


----------



## heartsbeating

I'll tell ya the challenge I have with _this_ woman (points to self) and it's the way I keep thinking about something afterwards. Darn you for asking this question shy_guy 

In my own experience, I knew there was a novelty aspect with me being female. Certainly there were times that I was given somewhat special treatment amidst the times that I was snubbed. In saying that, I had made things happen in various avenues and was really committed. So when gigs fell into my lap without me needing to bat an eyelash, was it related to being female? Or was it that I knew my stuff and had taken on more than most of the guys had at that time? Maybe it was a bit of both?

And if I went to a store whereby they didn't know me, interested in equipment, and they either ignored me and/or asked if I was there for my boyfriend...was that because I was a female and they didn't think I'd know what I'd know? Or was it simply bad service? Maybe it was a bit of both?


----------



## AFEH

FrankKissel said:


> Pretty sure it's not humanly possible to be any more obnoxiously patronizing than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank goodness you don't agree with me.


----------



## AFEH

LauraF said:


> I am pretty sure he's related to John Grey
> "Women and machinery do not mix"


No. That's just another delusion of yours.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Please. You cannot psychologically diagnose away reason and logic. You are so keen on no win situations in regards to women you dislike because they do not fit your proper and preferred depiction of women that it's not even funny.
> 
> Show me one person whose experience does not make them predisposed to assume or associate certain points of view based on their experience and I swear I'll give you a thousand dollars. You won't find it within either gender because, guess what, our experiences absolutely play a role in how we interpret things.
> 
> For all the free passes you give to men, you really need to start handing some out to women that you disagree with, and in the meantime, try taking a look at why you are so reluctant to hand them out to women unless they agree with you.
> 
> Walk hand in hand...pfft...if they agree with you _perhaps_.


:sleeping:


----------



## AFEH

Woman falsely accuses husband of rape Spurned housewife's rape claim backfires after husband shows police a video of them having consensual sex | Mail Online.



Now for me at least that is a very evil thing for the woman to have done. Not only against her H (what a nightmare that must have been for him) but all other women who have been raped.


But does that woman make all women evil and all women capable of falsely accusing their husband of rape?


Of course it doesn’t because some women would just never do such a thing. In exactly the same way some men would never rape, hit or otherwise abuse a woman.


And does it make a man like me hate all women because I think that woman performed an evil act? Of course it doesn’t.



Both men and women are capable of doing evil things. The things that stop some are their conscience and sense of morality.


With some of us it’s not even fear of getting caught. It is that we don’t see ourselves as that type of person. Sometimes when under significant duress a man could if he wanted to, take his wife’s head off. But we don’t go there, rather we internalise it and have a nervous breakdown. Some women just don’t get that about Man.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Mom,
> I am truly sorry I hit a trigger for you. And also sorry that someone harmed you when you were a child. I think perhaps you have completely misunderstood my post. Let me clarify it for you. In real life I have no desire to force any woman to do anything, much less have sex with me. Go read my post again. It is true that I never said "I have no desire to do this in real life (IRL), but so we are clear I have never wanted to and given a chance to do so with zero chance of discovery would not do so. I thought that was clear from the examples I gave where my sexual partners wanted to role play a "realistic rape scenario". Even in a role playing setting I found it rather upsetting. Note: what makes one hard in the completely abstract world of ones own mind is one thing. But even when already fully aroused, just "pretending" with a real partner was a turn off.
> 
> When I have a partner - my wiring and cultural programming is the same: to serve and protect. Harming a partner is just - it feels profoundly wrong to me. I would never rape anyone, what an awful thought. As for why this is a turn on in my head - I repeat - bad primate DNA. Wish I didn't have it but I do. But what happens solely within the confines of my head - and what I do IRL, are often completely different.
> 
> I have read that many women have rape fantasies - where they are the victim. I think most/all of them will tell you the same as I. They have no wish to experience the real thing in Real Life.
> 
> I hope you find peace. And that you come to realize I am not your enemy.


Which goes to prove you’re like billions of men in that your penis too does indeed have a conscience. That conscience, that sense of right and wrong, is either in your conscious, subconscious or unconsciousness mind and maybe even all three at the same time. It’s mindful expression is something like “I just don’t do that” and the body follows from there.


Your conscience is surely there and as such it controls your body in ways that you know about, conscious ways that you’re aware of and ways you don’t know about, in subconscious ways. And then of course there’s man’s unconscious mind, a whole different paradigm. It’s exactly how some men get ED, it comes (or doesn’t as the case maybe) via their conscience.


----------



## shy_guy

kittykat09 said:


> I am not exaggerating when I say reading some posts by some of the men on the forum leave me with a feeling of despair and sometimes terror regarding how much some of them hate women. Yes, hate. *These "men" don't even think they hate women, but they do.*
> 
> It makes me sick that it is so tolerated. It makes me sick that any attempt made by a woman to point out that hatred to those people is dismissed with contempt simply because people don't *want* to be told they are hateful (especially not by some uppity woman).
> 
> I'm not even talking about this thread specifically (although it sure has had its fair share of misogyny). I feel sorry for the real men who do value women who end up stuck in the crossfire, they certainly do not deserve it.


May I ask for clarification on *the bolded text.* I ask because it seems to me that it would be very difficult to hate something and think you don't. What sorts of things are you seeing that brings you to this conclusion?

The purple (In man colors  That's a joke from another thread ...  ) text is something I hope you bring out (and if necessary, ask questions to clarify) when you see examples of it. Do you see examples here you would like to call out? It would be interesting to see how the author perceives such statements as well.


----------



## kittykat09

shy_guy said:


> May I ask for clarification on *the bolded text.* I ask because it seems to me that it would be very difficult to hate something and think you don't. What sorts of things are you seeing that brings you to this conclusion?
> 
> The purple (In man colors  That's a joke from another thread ...  ) text is something I hope you bring out (and if necessary, ask questions to clarify) when you see examples of it. Do you see examples here you would like to call out? It would be interesting to see how the author perceives such statements as well.


People do it all the time, unfortunately. Take racists for example. A racist might hate black people specifically. They would never say "I hate black people because I harbor negative stereotypes and find them inferior" instead they claim "I am afraid of black people because it is proven that they are more likely to instigate violent crimes." They will always have a "reason" for their dislike of someone and they will refuse to call it hatred. Even if "studies" didn't give them fuel for their ideas, they would still be afraid of black people and hate them.

No one *wants* to be called a racist, that makes you a Bad Person, so they will always claim that they aren't. 

On this board some of the woman hate manifests itself in threads started by some men who have LD spouses. Some are very understanding and loving and just want things to change- my heart goes out to them. They obviously love their spouse and are genuinely confused about why they are not getting their needs met when they try so hard to make their spouse happy. These men deserve support and advice on how to hopefully improve things.

Then there are the posts by men who obviously do NOT love their wives and think they exist to sexually please their men. I won't call out anyone specific so it is hard to give specific examples, but they will use language that clearly shows they do not give a sh!t about their wife. They will spend the whole post putting her down, talking about how they are superior to her in every way, and otherwise vilifying her. He is smarter than her, he is more generous than her, he is more tolerant than her, she has stupid wants. There is usually an abundance of "women do <x>" or "women are <y>" in their posts.

Then he acts like he is somehow the victim of a wily woman who has trapped him in a marriage and stopped taking care of him. She is a terrible person ignoring her wedding vows, and isn't he just the greatest person for not cheating on her?

[I'm sorry, we don't have to be overly grateful that you don't beat us or cheat on us. That is a given. :scratchhead: It doesn't make you a saint. After all, if we aren't doing those things to you we deserve equal credit and they equal out, right?]

When presented with the idea that maybe he isn't meeting her emotional needs, he will lash out and say that he is a "good husband." No advice is actually wanted, he just wants other men to come into his thread and back him up. After all, his wife is Too Stupid to possibly realize her husband resents her so she can have no reason whatsoever to turn him down. It is always HER fault and she is ALWAYS doing it to be a bad wife and a bad person.

That kind of person hates women. She is not a human being with emotions and desires of her own that aren't being met (which in all likelihood was the cause of the dry spell the man ends up in), she is an ungrateful biotch. She is a woman, it is her job to service him regardless of her feelings. 

But try and call that POS a misogynist and watch them foam at the mouth about how stupid feminists are and how women will use that word with anyone who disagrees (yes- some do, but not all).


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## LauraF

AFEH said:


> No. That's just another delusion of yours.


Out of which other delusions? Any reason you are so profoundly pssed off?


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## shy_guy

kittykat09 said:


> People do it all the time, unfortunately. Take racists for example. A racist might hate black people specifically. They would never say "I hate black people because I harbor negative stereotypes and find them inferior" instead they claim "I am afraid of black people because it is proven that they are more likely to instigate violent crimes." They will always have a "reason" for their dislike of someone and they will refuse to call it hatred. Even if "studies" didn't give them fuel for their ideas, they would still be afraid of black people and hate them.
> 
> No one *wants* to be called a racist, that makes you a Bad Person, so they will always claim that they aren't.
> 
> On this board some of the woman hate manifests itself in threads started by some men who have LD spouses. Some are very understanding and loving and just want things to change- my heart goes out to them. They obviously love their spouse and are genuinely confused about why they are not getting their needs met when they try so hard to make their spouse happy. These men deserve support and advice on how to hopefully improve things.
> 
> Then there are the posts by men who obviously do NOT love their wives and think they exist to sexually please their men. I won't call out anyone specific so it is hard to give specific examples, but they will use language that clearly shows they do not give a sh!t about their wife. They will spend the whole post putting her down, talking about how they are superior to her in every way, and otherwise vilifying her. He is smarter than her, he is more generous than her, he is more tolerant than her, she has stupid wants. There is usually an abundance of "women do <x>" or "women are <y>" in their posts.
> 
> Then he acts like he is somehow the victim of a wily woman who has trapped him in a marriage and stopped taking care of him. She is a terrible person ignoring her wedding vows, and isn't he just the greatest person for not cheating on her?
> 
> [I'm sorry, we don't have to be overly grateful that you don't beat us or cheat on us. That is a given. :scratchhead: It doesn't make you a saint. After all, if we aren't doing those things to you we deserve equal credit and they equal out, right?]
> 
> When presented with the idea that maybe he isn't meeting her emotional needs, he will lash out and say that he is a "good husband." No advice is actually wanted, he just wants other men to come into his thread and back him up. After all, his wife is Too Stupid to possibly realize her husband resents her so she can have no reason whatsoever to turn him down. It is always HER fault and she is ALWAYS doing it to be a bad wife and a bad person.
> 
> That kind of person hates women. She is not a human being with emotions and desires of her own that aren't being met (which in all likelihood was the cause of the dry spell the man ends up in), she is an ungrateful biotch. She is a woman, it is her job to service him regardless of her feelings.
> 
> But try and call that POS a misogynist and watch them foam at the mouth about how stupid feminists are and how women will use that word with anyone who disagrees (yes- some do, but not all).


I've seen guys on here that have done things like that. But in answer to the question of hating women and not knowing it, I don't think I see that in these guys necessarily. Let me go through a little of my perspective on this.

I worked with a guy for a few years who one time expressed to me that he didn't like women. He went on to express to me that he didn't like the way they talked, didn't like the things they talked about, didn't like having to be around them, and only had one basic need that compelled him to be around them. He was an interesting study in contradiction since he had a long term marriage, almost seemed to be whipped, had a daughter that he went well out of his way to take care of. Later, it came out that he had a serious drug problem (and I was so naieve about drugs I didn't recognize it until he went into treatment). Maybe he was really mad the day he told me, but all excuses aside, if you took his words at face value, I would agree this guy hates women. He had no problem expressing it though.

I grant that not many will express it openly if they feel it. But how do we really recognize it in them? Are you testing for what you think you are testing for? Or might it be something else?

Let's take some of the guys who come onto the board with the attitude you stated. Is it possible, for example, that he is a selfish jackass, and that all of his relationships are much like his marriage? In such a case, maybe he is looking for someone to offer him validation even. Could this cause the things you are seeing without him really being a woman hater?

What about someone who just has unrealistic expectations in marriage? Maybe we could separate this out so that he isn't necessarily a selfish jackass, but his expectations are out of whack, and because of this, he is frustrated. How would you recognize the diffence between this, and the woman-hating you are describing?

I remember one thread in particular where a guy had an affair, and described his wife in glowing terms, but he just wanted to leave her for the woman he had found on the road. He had many reasons why he preferred her, too. I don't think many had anything nice to say to him here. I'll admit I didn't. It seemed like another type of self-centeredness. He did seem to want a woman who would service him. Would you classify this as woman hating?

I'm pressing in on this because I'm seeing what you're saying as being selfishness, or something else, but not _necessarily_ woman hating. 

I have seen a few I thought were selfish bastards come across the board, but I have a little trouble making the leap from what I saw to defining it as "woman-hating." How would we determine which one it is?

Hate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary 

From those definitions, I just can't see someone hating and not knowing it. I see "Hate" used quite often to explain disagreement, though. Do you see it used like this? If so, then I think it will be pretty important to define and distinguish.


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## kittykat09

To use your chosen definition site:
Hated : prejudiced hostility or animosity

People can hate things without recognizing they do because they are taught that hating is a bad thing. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc make you a Bad Person. No one wants to be a Bad Person so the brain reconciles by giving them as many justifications as they need to think they either don't hate something or that they are justified in thinking what they do.

The CWI portion of the board will tell people they have edited history in order to fit with their actions. WSs will convince themselves that their relationship is bad and they are justified in their cheating so they won't feel like a Bad Person. 

It is just what people do and how the brain reconciles poor behavior. 

You may see certain behaviors as just narcissistic, I see an underlying hatred of women on top of that. If they were just narcissists, they wouldn't make comments about how women in general behave (and should behave).


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## shy_guy

kittykat09 said:


> To use your chosen definition site:
> Hated : prejudiced hostility or animosity
> 
> People can hate things without recognizing they do because they are taught that hating is a bad thing. Racism, sexism, homophobia, etc make you a Bad Person. No one wants to be a Bad Person so the brain reconciles by giving them as many justifications as they need to think they either don't hate something or that they are justified in thinking what they do.
> 
> The CWI portion of the board will tell people they have edited history in order to fit with their actions. WSs will convince themselves that their relationship is bad and they are justified in their cheating so they won't feel like a Bad Person.
> 
> It is just what people do and how the brain reconciles poor behavior.
> 
> You may see certain behaviors as just narcissistic, I see an underlying hatred of women on top of that. If they were just narcissists, they wouldn't make comments about how women in general behave (and should behave).


So you're talking about cognitive dissonance. I understand that concept. We all use cognitive dissonance to one extent or another. 

I don't go to CWI both because I do not have experience and therefore don't think I have much to offer in the way of help, and also because it is too big of an emotional drain on me. I'm sure what you are saying is true.

But here is another behavior I see from newcomers in particular on the board. They come on, and I really think he/she is in the middle of a fight with his/her spouse. They seem to be looking either for validation of their position, or ammunition to inject into the fight with the spouse. They usually get both from a few people, and a few other people are a little more hesitant and want to drill in a little more. 

So when people come on, if they are in the middle of a fight, I can imagine passions can be pretty high. Have you ever said anything in the middle of a fight that you didn't really mean? Something that you really wish you hadn't said? Maybe your frustration with the situation led you to blow up? I wish I could say I had never done any of those things. With new people on the board in particular, how will we recognize the difference between this and woman hating?

In the situations on CWI, I can imagine frustrations are often very high, and the level of hurt is also very high. I can imagine it will be very difficult to reduce the full story that may have transpired over several months into a few paragraphs. You'll have to tell me whether or not this is true. I think when people are hurt in particular, their defenses make much more use of cognitive dissonance than at other times, and often they do so to avoid accepting blame. There are likely to be many emotions at work very actively to shape the story as it is written on the board. So how do we get through that to find woman hating in many of these situations?

I suppose if I boil it all down to what I'm asking, I'm saying: You mentioned how people use cognitive dissonance. We all also have confirmation bias and cognitive bias. If you are predisposed to see woman hating, how do you account for your own cognitive bias and confirmation bias when viewing these situations? (It's a question we all need to answer when evaluating a situation, I think.)


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## AFEH

kittykat09 said:


> People do it all the time, unfortunately. Take racists for example. A racist might hate black people specifically. They would never say "I hate black people because I harbor negative stereotypes and find them inferior" instead they claim "I am afraid of black people because it is proven that they are more likely to instigate violent crimes." They will always have a "reason" for their dislike of someone and they will refuse to call it hatred. Even if "studies" didn't give them fuel for their ideas, they would still be afraid of black people and hate them.
> 
> No one *wants* to be called a racist, that makes you a Bad Person, so they will always claim that they aren't.
> 
> On this board some of the woman hate manifests itself in threads started by some men who have LD spouses. Some are very understanding and loving and just want things to change- my heart goes out to them. They obviously love their spouse and are genuinely confused about why they are not getting their needs met when they try so hard to make their spouse happy. These men deserve support and advice on how to hopefully improve things.
> 
> Then there are the posts by men who obviously do NOT love their wives and think they exist to sexually please their men. I won't call out anyone specific so it is hard to give specific examples, but they will use language that clearly shows they do not give a sh!t about their wife. They will spend the whole post putting her down, talking about how they are superior to her in every way, and otherwise vilifying her. He is smarter than her, he is more generous than her, he is more tolerant than her, she has stupid wants. There is usually an abundance of "women do <x>" or "women are <y>" in their posts.
> 
> Then he acts like he is somehow the victim of a wily woman who has trapped him in a marriage and stopped taking care of him. She is a terrible person ignoring her wedding vows, and isn't he just the greatest person for not cheating on her?
> 
> [I'm sorry, we don't have to be overly grateful that you don't beat us or cheat on us. That is a given. :scratchhead: It doesn't make you a saint. After all, if we aren't doing those things to you we deserve equal credit and they equal out, right?]
> 
> When presented with the idea that maybe he isn't meeting her emotional needs, he will lash out and say that he is a "good husband." No advice is actually wanted, he just wants other men to come into his thread and back him up. After all, his wife is Too Stupid to possibly realize her husband resents her so she can have no reason whatsoever to turn him down. It is always HER fault and she is ALWAYS doing it to be a bad wife and a bad person.
> 
> That kind of person hates women. She is not a human being with emotions and desires of her own that aren't being met (which in all likelihood was the cause of the dry spell the man ends up in), she is an ungrateful biotch. She is a woman, it is her job to service him regardless of her feelings.
> 
> But try and call that POS a misogynist and watch them foam at the mouth about how stupid feminists are and how women will use that word with anyone who disagrees (yes- some do, but not all).


I wonder how unbalanced you are? You critique the men here yet say nothing about the women. There’s one guy whose wife’s child is not his yet she led him to believe it is. It’s by no means the first occurrence either and it wont be the last.

Yet women like you get your nuts off by rampaging through men’s posts pointing out here a misogynist there a misogynist without offering up any proof or evidence whatsoever.



So for goodness sake make direct reference to the men and their posts who in your opinion are misogynists. I feel very certain they’d like the opportunity to defend themselves.




So either put up or shut-up. Either prove your accusations or have at least one guy here believe that you falsely accuse men of being misogynists and goodness knows what else.


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## okeydokie

its easy to pick out the overtly bitter people on this site, i generally laugh at them, they are entertaining


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## shy_guy

AFEH said:


> I wonder how unbalanced you are? You critique the men here yet say nothing about the women. There’s one guy whose wife’s child is not his yet she led him to believe it is. It’s by no means the first occurrence either and it wont be the last.
> 
> Yet women like you get your nuts off by rampaging through men’s posts pointing out here a misogynist there a misogynist without offering up any proof or evidence whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> So for goodness sake make direct reference to the men and their posts who in your opinion are misogynists. I feel very certain they’d like the opportunity to defend themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So either put up or shut-up. Either prove your accusations or have at least one guy here believe that you falsely accuse men of being misogynists and goodness knows what else.


I think we can have a discussion and get down to where a person is coming from with a little lower level of emotion. What do you think?

She was replying to me. I'm not finding anything offensive in her answers at this point. It may be as simple as a difference in how we define things, or we may find more substance in our disagreement. If we engage in the conversation, who knows, we may all learn something. Can we do it that way? What do we have to lose if we do?


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## AFEH

It's a forum. You know one of those places where people interact.


And I will react in the way that I do. It's all part of being me, how I feel about things and how I express myself. You can take it or leave it, that is of course your choice.


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## kittykat09

"But try and call that POS a misogynist and watch them foam at the mouth about how stupid feminists are and how women will use that word with anyone who disagrees (yes- some do, but not all)."

Might want to check that section out, AFEH. Nowhere did I say all women are saints, and nowhere was I saying all men are misogynists. Your response, however? Classic.


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## shy_guy

AFEH said:


> It's a forum. You know one of those places where people interact.
> 
> 
> And I will react in the way that I do. It's all part of being me, how I feel about things and how I express myself. You can take it or leave it, that is of course your choice.


Did you see me saying not to interact? I didn't see that. I said I think we can have a discussion with a little lower level of emotion, that is true. Discussion seemed to me to imply interaction.

I suppose you can react the way you want to. You're right, I can't stop you. 

*EDIT:* I'll remove the part after this. I suppose that even though I don't want to get into the emotional part of this discussion, I have said I want to hear from people in their own words, and that is still true.


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## okeydokie

okeydokie said:


> its easy to pick out the overtly bitter people on this site, i generally laugh at them, they are entertaining


i hate to quote myself, but if you "liked" this post, you might consider to whom it was directed


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## okeydokie

an i despise hypocrisy, anyone who has an in your face abrasive posting style should not beetch about someone else with the same style


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## Trenton

okeydokie said:


> i hate to quote myself, but if you "liked" this post, you might consider to whom it was directed


Perhaps she was being ironic?


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## ocotillo

I've been thinking about this topic and I'd have to say the greatest challenge for me is finding things 

I have a hard time anyway because I can 'look' right at something and not 'see' it. My wife seems to have near total recall and a photographic memory when it comes to finding things.

For example: I needed the blender for a recipe. I looked in the appliance cupboard where we keep the food processor and mixers and found only the base (The motor.)

I found the glass vessel with the pitchers in another cabinet.

I found the blade/impeller in the drawer with the disks for the food processor and beaters for the mixer.

I found the rubber lid to the glass vessel in a cabinet with tupperware

These three locations all kinda/sorta made sense, but took me about five minutes each.

The hardest part to find was the silicone/rubber gasket that seals the blade assembly to the glass vessel. I finally found that in a 'junk' drawer where we keep everything from appliance manuals to plastic forks

Total elapsed time: About twenty minutes!

(This story is a (feeble) attempt to inject a little humor into a thread that seems to be boiling, but is still perfectly true.)


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## kittykat09

okeydokie said:


> i hate to quote myself, but if you "liked" this post, you might consider to whom it was directed


I figured you meant AFEH. I am not a hypocrite. I do not hate men. I am not overly bitter towards men.

I'm sorry that not liking misogynists and having a conversation about it makes me a bad person.


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## Trenton

kittykat09 said:


> I figured you meant AFEH. I am not a hypocrite. I do not hate men. I am not overly bitter towards men.
> 
> I'm sorry that not liking misogynists and having a conversation about it makes me a bad person.


I would have thought so too if I didn't know okiedokie was part of the boy's club. Him typing that in regards to AFEH would have been sacrilegious. There are dichotomies everywhere you go I suppose.


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## FrankKissel

AFEH said:


> It's a forum. You know one of those places where people interact.
> 
> 
> And I will react in the way that I do. It's all part of being me, how I feel about things and how I express myself. You can take it or leave it, that is of course your choice.


Says the guy who gripes about women being too emotional to carry out a logical discussion.
Yum. This irony sure tastes good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog

F^ck all you b^tches, & see you in hell, muhf^ckaz


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## SimplyAmorous

shy_guy said:


> I think you can see by now that not all men are like this guy. In fact most of us get very angry in a very deep way when we hear about these types of things. Actually, I can't even watch a movie about *rape* because it stirs such strong negative feelings in me, and it takes a long time for me to recover and put my energy back where it needs to be.


 My husband is this way also. He can not watch these scenes on a movie, I always have to turn it... he has spoken out of his mouth..."makes him want to go kill someone". 




> I hope that conversations on here are helpful to you. However; other people have different experiences, and you may be hearing some of those experiences coming out in their posts. It may be that they are expressing it in some of the statements you find offensive, but I don't think that was what was behind their statements. I think there is SOMETHING behind it, and it may be attitudes of women they know. In such a case, I think it is very healthy if they get to express their frustrations - maybe others hear that and see their actions as contributing (I don't know ... that's part of the learning I talk about). I don't want to shut them up. I know if someone tries to shut me up, unless they can get me banned, it won't be successful, so I don't expect someone else to hold back. Can you see that?


I think exactly like you Shy-Guy on these points. 

I don't really have much to say on here , other than I am so happy to be a woman, I would never want to be a man....If I had to compare, I just feel they have it harder somehow....putting up with us. 

My husband said to me this morning -how he is sorry I have to go through these Periods/PMS... don't even know why he said this, I wasn't complaining-other than wanting him... ....I said .. ."are you crazy... this is nothing, you have to put up with me"... 

Men need to be brave for us, patient with us, listen to us, put their sexual needs down for us, put up with our emotional mood swings, most feel a deep burden to provide for their families which is getting harder & harder in today's high cost society...or this plummets their self esteem & feelings of manhood........it is no walk in the park for them . 

I think the biggest problem with the sexes is... the irresponsible self centered entitled ones (on both sides) are tempting the other half to judge each other.... If each of us would look to ourselves (our own sex) to improve what WE can to enrich the other sex ....acts of kindness, living to please them....what we can bring to the union, going above & beyond... you bring 2 souls like this together, there is a deep abiding appreciation for what each brings to the table ...and so often sweet harmony results. 

We need a Thankfulness for each other (how boring life would be without the opposite sex !!) ....and a Humbleness of our own imperfections to go there.


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## MEM2020

Runs,
You are going to be banned for this and rightly so.

You need to end your toxic marriage now as your post is indicative of the start of a mental breakdown.

You need to see a therapist quickly.

QUOTE=Runs like Dog;670352]F^ck all you b^tches, & see you in hell, muhf^ckaz [/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Exactly right Bob. Lots of hostility towards men. A list of nasty generalizations all cloaked in the supposed desire to avoid "putting anyone in particular" on the spot.

Too polite to risk embarrassing a person, but utterly comfortable shotgun blasting a large but ill defined subset of haters.

In the 1950s Joseph McCarthy stood on the senate floor claiming he had a list of 200+ card carrying members of the communist party all of whom worked in the state department.



QUOTE=AFEH;670201]I wonder how unbalanced you are? You critique the men here yet say nothing about the women. There’s one guy whose wife’s child is not his yet she led him to believe it is. It’s by no means the first occurrence either and it wont be the last.

Yet women like you get your nuts off by rampaging through men’s posts pointing out here a misogynist there a misogynist without offering up any proof or evidence whatsoever.



So for goodness sake make direct reference to the men and their posts who in your opinion are misogynists. I feel very certain they’d like the opportunity to defend themselves.




So either put up or shut-up. Either prove your accusations or have at least one guy here believe that you falsely accuse men of being misogynists and goodness knows what else.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kittykat09

MEM11363 said:


> Exactly right Bob. Lots of hostility towards men. A list of nasty generalizations all cloaked in the supposed desire to avoid "putting anyone in particular" on the spot.
> 
> Too polite to risk embarrassing a person, but utterly comfortable shotgun blasting a large but ill defined subset of haters.
> 
> In the 1950s Joseph McCarthy stood on the senate floor claiming he had a list of 200+ card carrying members of the communist party all of whom worked in the state department.


And if I had given direct quotes, people still wouldn't believe me or I would be getting reamed for having "called people out." Specific postings aren't relevant to what I was talking about. I was talking about misogynists. I was not man-bashing, I was not saying women are perfect- I was talking about misogynists. 

You are bringing up McCarthy? Seriously? Do you honestly doubt there is anyone here who hates women? 

I don't understand how a message board about relationships and marriage can be so tolerant of misogyny.


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## shy_guy

kittykat09 said:


> And if I had given direct quotes, people still wouldn't believe me or I would be getting reamed for having "called people out." Specific postings aren't relevant to what I was talking about. I was talking about misogynists. I was not man-bashing, I was not saying women are perfect- I was talking about misogynists.
> 
> You are bringing up McCarthy? Seriously? Do you honestly doubt there is anyone here who hates women?
> 
> *I don't understand how a message board about relationships and marriage can be so tolerant of misogyny.*


My opinion on it is that we may not even see some of these things the same way you see them. We may not be tolerating it. I think when you say things like this, you MUST call it out. Who cares if you get "reamed" for calling them out? If they are doing it, then call it out. We MUST see and evaluate the evidence for the claims to be properly considered.

I don't doubt it exists. I think I see cases of it. I DO doubt that people hate women without even knowing it, though. I think discussion of the evidence is very important in coming to a conclusion, and an understanding both of intent, and of how it is received.


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## okeydokie

Trenton said:


> I would have thought so too if I didn't know okiedokie was part of the boy's club. Him typing that in regards to AFEH would have been sacrilegious. There are dichotomies everywhere you go I suppose.


you can say that with a straight face? there is no girls club to which you would be one of the founding members?

the poster i was referring to sets out to be abrasive and cannot handle it when she is called on it. time to buck up buckaroos


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## okeydokie

kittykat09 said:


> I don't understand how a message board about relationships and marriage can be so tolerant of misogyny.


just so i understand. this board is tolerant of woman bashing (in your mind) and there is never any man bashing by the ladies? you seriously believe that?

misogynist, woman haters. cmon


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## Trenton

okeydokie said:


> you can say that with a straight face? there is no girls club to which you would be one of the founding members?
> 
> the poster i was referring to sets out to be abrasive and cannot handle it when she is called on it. time to buck up buckaroos


I didn't really have a straight face on 

I get it.


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## MEM2020

You will not get bashed for being blunt and/or critical of specific posts, or if you do you will likely begin to lower the weight you assign to those bashing you. If you repeatedly call out posts that are weak or biased, you are making a positive contribution and will likely find people here overall responding favorably.

If you turn out to be highly skilled at this type of observation and debate, you will likely tilt the tone in the direction you are headed - over time.

The more general your observations, at least at the start, and the more intense your language, the more inclined folks are to perceive you as angry and perhaps biased.

OTE=kittykat09;670428]And if I had given direct quotes, people still wouldn't believe me or I would be getting reamed for having "called people out." Specific postings aren't relevant to what I was talking about. I was talking about misogynists. I was not man-bashing, I was not saying women are perfect- I was talking about misogynists. 

You are bringing up McCarthy? Seriously? Do you honestly doubt there is anyone here who hates women? 

I don't understand how a message board about relationships and marriage can be so tolerant of misogyny.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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