# childhood sweethearts in trouble!



## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

My story is quite a complicated one but im at my wits end and really need some advice. 
My husband and I have been together since we were 15, we are now 32/33 and have been married for 8 1/2 years. we got married when we were 24 and have a 4 1/2 yr old girl. We have always had a very passionate relationship and have loved each other unconditionally. I was my husbands first proper girlfriend, i had 2 boyfriends before him, but we knew wach other and were best friends. 
Since having our daughter i quit work to become a full time mum, a decision that was joint, as he has a good job and works very hard to support us. But since having our daughter and me quitting work, things have become stagnent. We slowly let the passion die out, by not going out anywhere or spending much time together alone. Whilst i wouldnt change our desicion for me stay at home, as our daughter is an extremely well adjusted and intelligent wee girl, i did lose my sense of self and individuality. By the time my daughter was 1 he had become very friendly with the new neighbours and the began hanging out most nights drinking and stuff. He has never really had a male friend that is so close to him in personality, as i have always been his best pal. anyway, this really hurt me, as he would go out constantly and say he'd only be an hour but then come home 3/4 hours later and on numerous times he wouldnt come home at all! this other guy is a really bad influence on him as he is easily distracted. I started to treat him differently and we would argue a lot. It came toa head nearly 2 years ago when i said i was unhappy and thinking of leaving. i wasnt, but i was trying to scare him into realising what he was doing was hurting me. It worked for a while. Then one night at a party we got really drunk and ended up having a threesome with another one of his friends. My husband initiated it, as its always been a fantasy of ours. Afterwards things were really good between us, we coldnt keep our hands off each other and we felt really connected. Bt after time i couldnt cope with the feelings that i had betryed my husband. I became really depressed and miserable and shouted at him all the time and called him some horrible names. I have really bruised him emotionally. This happened a year and a half ago. things havent been all bad though, we have had some really good times since then. 
I feel like a frumpy housewife who is just a slave to her husbands whims and very unappreciated. 
However, since jan i have noticed that he has pulled right back from me. He used to tell me everyday that he loved me and we would have been having regular great sex. When i confrnted him about it 10 days ago, he said that he was no longer "in" love with me. He said he has been bottling up his feelings for so long and that the threesome "stole" the childhood sweetheart image from him. He says he is still sexually attracted to me and since he said this we have been having great sex! He says he doesnt want to leave and will try MC. He says i am the love of his life and he loves me so much it hurts, that he will never love anyone like he loves me but that he just doesnt see me as he always did. He says hes devasted that he feels this way and that he never expected to feel this way, but he does.
I have noticed that since jan he has been drinking a lot. We recently went on holiday and he spent nearly the whole time on his phone. he said it was work related and i believed him. however when all this came out i asked him if there was someone else. he swore there wasnt.

\then 5 days ago he told me he has struck up a friendship with a girl he indirectly works with and that for a while, since jan they have been flirting. He said that she knows all about us and our problems and that she gets him! They are very similar he says, same likes/dislikes similar jobs ( he is a fireman and trauma technician and she is a paramedic). He says he only told me as he wants ro be 100% honest. I knew something was up and he was hiding his phone and has put a lock on it. Since telling me all this he is still possessive with his phone and i know they are still talking. he says hes not gonna stop talking to her as they are just friends. The flirting has stopped, as she stopped it, apparantly. I have found her on twitter and she is looks the exact opposite to me! i have long blonde hair and curves and she is skinny with jet black short hair. shes a real rock chick and has actually hung out with guns n roses!! how do i compete with that!

He had gone from being this loving guy who told me he loved me to this cold and distant person. He says he doesnt feel connected to me, but he still wanted to have sex 4 times over the weekend! He says the sex has to stop for a while as its only confusing the situation, but i think we need to keep doing it as its the only connection we have at the moment! 

I really dont know what to do, my head is spinning! im not eating or sleeping properly. I do need to lose weight (30lbs or so). I cant stop thinking about him. hes the love of my life and i cant believe i might lose him. I feel like i have pushed him away for so long and right into the arms of another! please help


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## Help4NewMoms (Mar 15, 2011)

This story is quite complicated, so I'm just going to weigh in on one part -the part where you talk about losing your esteem as a stay at home mom. Honey, you are not alone. What you are feeling is very common. Here's an idea. Go out there and get a job, part-time if you have to. It sounds like your relationship is at "Def-Con 5." You need to change something and quite frankly, if you are on the the verge of a split, even a temporary one, you need to be able to take care of yourself and your daughter. 
Finding a job will give you:

1. Something else to think about.
2. Self-esteem
3. Money in your bank account
4. Something for your husband to think about (It's amazing how interested a husband becomes when he doesn't know exactly who YOU are with every second of every day.)
5. Weight loss - you wont have time or access to food 24/7.
6. A new wardrobe - you have to wear decent clothes to work, right?
7. Respect from other folks for a job well done.
8. Participation from your husband to care for his kid -you're going to have to help.
9. The opportunity to have control of an aspect of your life.
10. Did I mention money?

Here's the thing, all of the great benefits that affected your little girl since you have been a stay at home mom are not going to go away. You need to focus on yourself right now and get your confidence back. The benefits to the marriage will follow. It's never good in a marriage when one feels so far beneath the other. Even things up a bit and head back to work. It's a start.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Read virtually any thread here. Your story is textbook. I can't address the 3-some and the damage that it may have caused, you can get to that when its time. Your not there right now. 

You have 2 pressing needs right now. 1, you husband is having an affair. NO doubt, no question. What stage this affair has progressed to, it's hard to say. But it is an affair. WHat he tells you or what you see is the tip of an iceburg. You must seperate your husband from his drug (other women). That is priority #1. 2, work on yourself. Take some pride in yourself and get to working on you. If this isn't motivation enough to buckle down and start sheading those extra pounds, nothing will be. 

Like I said, those two things are your priorities. Well, 3 actually. 1 start reading as many threads on this website as possible, you will get all the ammo you need to begin trying to accomplish priority 2. Seperate your husband from the other women. 3, work on yourself. Start now.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

thanks thats good advice. i have started a part time job last week and it felt great to get out of the house, even if it was just for a few hours. i think thats where a lot of our problems stem from, my confidence. I just dont feel confident at the moment, esp after hearing all this from my hubby. it has knocked me for 6!


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## twotimeloser (Feb 13, 2011)

in theheat of the moment a 3some might seem like a good idea, but at some point, maybenot at age 30 or 40.. but at some point he is gonna look at you and just know... you said ok. he wont blame himself, he will blame you. might be subconciously, but he will.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

he instigated it though! he also dictacted what happened during it! we both agreed it was great at the time and he says he doesnt blame me a t all, he blames himself. this is so messed up


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

he says hes not having an affair and but that he did think about it. he said he couldnt do it to me. i said that it is an emotional affair and he thinks this is nonsense! he says they are just friends! how do i stop him from seeing or texting her? they occasionally work together


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## The 13th_Floor (Mar 7, 2011)

Honeybum,

I'm sorry you're going through this. My wife was a stay at home mom for a long time while going to school. She lost a lot of confidence in herself and felt she was no longer independant. I can't blame her, she was 17 when I met her, child at 22 and now 26 and she appears to be making up for lost time. I kind of know what you're going through. 

It doesn't sound too late in my opinion. I would grab your husband, your daughter's father, your best friend, the love of your LIFE and go to marriage cousiling. Not ALL young couples have to end up in divorce. I want you guys to make it as much as I want my wife and I to make it. We've been working so hard the past few years on my salary to put her through school and it would suck for some other guy to end up reaping the benefits, lol. Damnit! You can work through this, and if it doesn't work out, I promise you will come out of this stronger. 

Keep us updated and best wishes!


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

thanks for the support. i really needed to hear that. had a terrible nights sleep plaugued with bad dreams. feel awful today, really down and depressed and hes coming home tonight! need to try pick myself up a bit.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

honeybum said:


> then 5 days ago he told me he has struck up a friendship with a girl he indirectly works with and that for a while, *since jan *they have been flirting. He said that she knows all about us and our problems and that she gets him! They are very similar he says, same likes/dislikes similar jobs ( he is a fireman and trauma technician and she is a paramedic). He says he only told me as he wants ro be 100% honest. I knew something was up and he was hiding his phone and has put a lock on it. *Since telling me all this he is still possessive with his phone and i know they are still talking. he says hes not gonna stop talking to her as they are just friends.*



He is having an affair, Honey. They always say it's "just a friend." The fact that he's still being possessive with his phone and has refused to end the "friendship" with her is very telling. That's also why he's being so hot and cold with you. You guys did have a 3some but he was a part of that, too so he can't blame you for all of it. Stop taking 100% of the blame. And just FYI: They NEVER admit the affair w/o solid proof. I wouldn't be surprised if they've had sex already.

Do you know if she has a husband or a partner? If she does, TELL them. Exposing the affair can usually throw an axe to it. Get some evidence and go from there. Hardcore evidence. Don't expose it til you know 100% and then play your cards right by telling him you will NOT live in a marriage where there is a third party and if he doesn't end it you will take appropriate measures, including up to and divorce. Mean it.

Right now he's getting sex from her and emotional/comfort support from you. Throw an axe at it. He's having his cake.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

hes not one to lie though, i have known him since we were 13. he has never lied before. the thing is, hes not really getting anything emotional from me as he says he feels emotionally detatched from me. as far as i know shes single and a bit promiscuous from what he has told me. he swears its all innocent, now.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

i have her mobile number and email address, should i contact her? i think this might make things worse though


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Don't contact her right now. 
*First--does she have a partner/SO?*

He has already lied to you. He told you they were just friends and then admitted to flirting with her. "Just friends" don't flirt. Him locking his phone and hiding it from you--he is having an affair. Know that. I myself had one and everything he is doing I did. I speak from experience.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

he said the flirting got too much and she stopped it. so they are just friends now. i think shes single.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I am not buying his story. Is there anyway for you to find out if he's emailing her or texting her?

The reason I asked if she's involved with someone is so that you could tell her partner. Nothing throws the dynamic of an affair off quicker than it being pushed into light. Affairs thrive on secrecy and fantasy. When affairs are discovered, they're not as fun anymore. Is there anyway you can get concrete proof that it's over? 

If he has told you he doesn't want to sleep with you, oblige him. Do NOT fight him on what he's telling you. Also, if he's sleeping with her too he is putting you at risk for STDs. Get tested. Validate what he says. It's going to throw him for a loop that you're not pining over him. TRUST me on this. Start thinking about what you want. 

Get in the gym, get a hobby, smile, buy a new pair of jeans.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

honeybum said:


> hes not one to lie though, i have known him since we were 13. he has never lied before... he swears its all innocent, now...


Textbook. 

He *wasn't* one to lie. He *wasn't* one to have affairs. At one time I suspect he *wasn't* one to share his wife with another man. 

He *is* lying. He *is *having an affair. He *is* a man who willingly shares his wife.

It doesn't matter what was. You only have what is. 

Your husband is having an affair.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Yep it's totally textbook.

Tell you won't live in an open marriage.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

i know they are texting, and talking but i have no access to his phone and when i do there is a lock on it now. I came home the other day and he was on the phone to her talking about me and our situation ( i heard 20 secs 0f convo) but he showed me his phon when i asked who he was speaking to, so he says he has nothing to hide.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

What did you overhear him saying? Do you get copies of the phone records at all?

Their relationship is totally inappropriate and he knows it. 

You need to put your foot down.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

all i heard him say was how he thought we were starting to affect our daughter with our behaviour and that i told him i would never make things difficult for him where our daughter was concerned. a conversation that we had the previous night. his phone bill doesnt come in for another week or so. I think he may have only told me this as he mentioned a couple of times over the weekend that next months bill may be big as hes been using his phone a lot


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Listening to the people here will potentially give you a 2-3 week jump... But, I suspect the truth or at least the main explosion will be coming very soon. 

Unless of course you let him keep gaslighting you... Then it could go underground somewhat for a couple months, but it's coming to a head. I suspect somewhere inside you, you knew that, that may have been what drove you to come here?.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

HB this is the second thread you posted on this situation. I followed the tread and the conclusions are exactly the same as the last. It is difficult to believe that your husband could be cheating on you but thats what all deceived spouses say. As I said in your last thread it is all textbook.

Get yourself ready to face this. The 3some has nothing to do with the cheating as I said before it is a convenient smoke screen to deceive you. You husband is not the nice loving man you knew before his affair. 

He is lying to you and manipulating you to make you feel guilty and confused. He is so good at the manipulation that you can't believe what is right in front of you. You are being extra nice to him what a nice loving guy. 

You know that he is having an affair it is difficult but be prepared to face it. It usually comes out when the cheater says he is not in love with you and needs time apart. He wants to pursue the OW full time but he wants to string you along till he sure the OW going to work out.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> It usually comes out when the cheater says he is not in love with you and needs time apart. He wants to pursue the OW full time but he wants to string you along till he sure the OW going to work out.


Yep. Just like this.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> It is difficult to believe that your husband could be cheating on you but thats what all deceived spouses say. As I said in your last thread it is all textbook.
> 
> Get yourself ready to face this. The 3some has nothing to do with the cheating as I said before it is a convenient smoke screen to deceive you. You husband is not the nice loving man you knew before his affair.
> 
> He is lying to you and manipulating you to make you feel guilty and confused. He is so good at the manipulation that you can't believe what is right in front of you.


:iagree:

Bingo, Bullseye, Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner!!!.

This ain't goin away. 

I'm sorry, your husand is a cheater.

You deal with this, or this deals with you.


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## ladyybyrd (Jan 4, 2011)

He may not be having a psychical affair, but could be having an emotional one. The other woman knows all about your marriage and the problems you two are having. Always go with your gut because 99% of the time it is correct.. also DO not confront him until you get proof of him having an affair, it will make it a lot harder for you to find out if he knows you are on to him. Check his phone records. Put a key logger on his computer, Put a voice activated recorder in his car. Do what ever you have to do to find out the truth!!

Good luck.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

we sat up for most of last night talking and he said that the reason he was possessive with hs phone was that he knew i would look at it and get upset if i saw he was texting her. he saidthe lock on it was because a guy at work changed the language settings on it. He said that he would let me have access to his phone if i wanted as he has nothing to hide. I asked him to stop talking to her and as they have to work together thats not really possible but he said he will stop talking to her about us and me. he still wants to be her friend. 
when he was away with work i wrote him a letter and put it in his suitcase, he didnt get it til the last night and instead of texting me to say he got it, he texted her! 
he says that he is still very sexually attracted to me but the problem is emotionally he doesnt feel connected as he hasn felt like talking to me in ages about anything as i never listen. which is actually somewhat true. 
he says the 3some, for him is still the issue that he has and that it stole something from it. I cant understand this as he still maintains that it was great and loves talking about it! i cant stand to talk about it.
we ended up having sex last night and it was amazing but i cant help feeling used. he knows im getting more from it emotionally than he is and he says he feels guilty afterwads because of that, but he says he cant help it as hes so turned on by me! im so confused! how do i reconnect emotionally?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

He is having an affair with her. He calls her when he should call his wife he is more emotionally connected to her than you. He wants to remain friends even though you have told him how much it effects you. The phone did you look at it? His story is BS. He has an answer for everything very common. 

You accept his explanations because you want to not know. Insist he stop all contact with the woman and dig deeper, you will find the evidence if you want. Or you can let him snow you and surprise you when he is ready to leave you for the OW.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

i do agree that he is more emotionally attached to her than me, but he doesnt have many friends that he can confide in. he has plenty of mates but none he wants to talk about this stuff with. they wouldnt take him seriously. i have confided in my friends so i understand the need to talk to someone other than me. it just upsets me as he confessed to flirting with her. should i stop having sex with him? i prob should, but i cant help it!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

You know the more I come here, and the more stories I read the sadder I get at times. Once you have been through the brutal trauma of infidelity and your eyes have been opened everything is so clear.. 

Then you see other people come and tell thier stories time after time after time and your sad for them, they just can't see it or they dont want to see it... You see the hurt and confusion in the words that they say, you see whats coming and we try to help but they are so overwelmed by pain, denial, and rationalizations, they just can't listen...

It's like in a dream.. watching confused, scared, blind people wandering out into the road and desperately turning in circles, disoriented and unable to get out of the road... you see the truck coming, you know they are about to get run down and we are all here screaming for them, PLEASE OVER HERE!!! Get out of the road!!! They hear you, but cant understand what your saying... A few are able to stagger away just enough to miss getting completely run down, but most just cant move... Then later, the people that get run down somehow appear on the side of the road with the group... screaming for the next group of blind people that stagger into the road... trying so hard to save them from the pain of that truck... it's coming...


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## Neil (Jan 5, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> You know the more I come here, and the more stories I read the sadder I get at times. Once you have been through the brutal trauma of infidelity and your eyes have been opened everything is so clear..
> 
> Then you see other people come and tell thier stories time after time after time and your sad for them, they just can't see it or they dont want to see it... You see the hurt and confusion in the words that they say, you see whats coming and we try to help but they are so overwelmed by pain, denial, and rationalizations, they just can't listen...
> 
> It's like in a dream.. watching confused, scared, blind people wandering out into the road and desperately turning in circles, disoriented and unable to get out of the road... you see the truck coming, you know they are about to get run down and we are all here screaming for them, PLEASE OVER HERE!!! Get out of the road!!! They hear you, but cant understand what your saying... A few are able to stagger away just enough to miss getting completely run down, but most just cant move... Then later, the people that get run down somehow appear on the side of the road with the group... screaming for the next group of blind people that stagger into the road... trying so hard to save them from the pain of that truck... it's coming...



one of the best anologies I have ever read


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

honeybum said:


> the reason he was possessive with hs phone was that he knew i would look at it and get upset if i saw he was texting her. he saidthe lock on it was because a guy at work changed the language settings on it. He said that he would let me have access to his phone if i wanted as he has nothing to hide.


He knew his wife, the mother of his child would be upset and it would hurt you deeply but that’s not enough for him to stop doing it. He would rather deceive you, lie to you and hide it from you than stop doing it. Do you see it? Isn’t this picture becoming more clear? 

Yes, he will let you see it now if you call his bluff. He thinks you probably won’t, and if you do expect two things. One… Guilt. You will be painted as someone who doesn’t trust him and that will be stacked onto the reason it’s your fault he feels the way he does. This is manipulation, this my dear is the core of gaslighting. Expect to hear some of these things if you haven’t already..

How could you believe I would ever have an affair? 

You must be preoccupied with an affair, yourself! 

Why are you being suspicious of me, What’s wrong with you?

When you accuse me of things it makes me not want to be around you! 

That's what our distance & marriage problems are all about, right there! You don’t trust me! 

Your disbelief in me is what has come between us! 

You're jumping to conclusions again!. 

You see everything in the most negative way! 

You're always nagging me about something all the time!. 

You're making things up in your head or blowing things out of proportion!. 

Your imagination is working overtime!.

Two… There will be nothing to see. He will delete everything, there will be nothing to see other than what he wants you to see. If he’s good, he will leave just enough to verify the innocence of the conversations, just enough hand picked information to cement the guilt. What you see will be exactly what you are meant to see. He has the paint brush. 



honeybum said:


> when he was away with work i wrote him a letter and put it in his suitcase, he didnt get it til the last night and instead of texting me to say he got it, he texted her!


Yes, he did. Of course he did. Your marriage problems and his rehearsed confusion and pain are the bait, the bonding agent, that brought them together. He’s playing the hurt puppy dog and she’s succumbing to the maternal, nurturing instincts to be a caregiver… With Disloyal wives, the parts they play are the damsel in distress and the OM’s role becomes the Knight in shining armor.. These parts they play are partially instinctual, they are driven to play these parts and it lets them rationalize getting closer to the flame, justifies just long enough for the process to move into the next phases. All the while, it’s exciting, rushes of hormones and pheromones, all those wonderful chemicals the brain is releasing. He has new wounds and new ammo to get her attention and get her compassion, hell yeah he called her first. 



honeybum said:


> he hasn felt like talking to me in ages about anything as i never listen. which is actually somewhat true.


Misdirection. Of course it’s somewhat true. That’s the beauty of gaslighting. It plays on reasonable doubt; it’s a cruel form of emotional abuse. Your spouse knows you better than anyone. He knows your “buttons”. Gaslighting is generally used in an attempt to hide any actions or truths a person does not want brought to light. These forms of manipulation & lies aren’t always used with the intention of hurting the loyal spouse, but it can and does cause serious mental & emotional scars. At it’s core the intention is to cause the LS to doubt themselves, to ignore or question the instincts they have about what is really happening. To doubt your perceptions of reality or bring you into the DS’s fogged sense of reality.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

honeybum said:


> he saidthe lock on it was because a guy at work changed the language settings on it?


Dumb excuse. It's HIS phone. He knows how to work it. Trust me. 



honeybum said:


> he said he will stop talking to her about us and me. he still wants to be her friend.
> when he was away with work i wrote him a letter and put it in his suitcase, he didnt get it til the last night and instead of texting me to say he got it, he texted her! ?


He lied again. What did the letter say?



honeybum said:


> we ended up having sex last night and it was amazing but i cant help feeling used. he *knows im getting more from it emotionally than he is and he says he feels guilty afterwads because of that,* but he says he cant help it as hes so turned on by me! im so confused! how do i reconnect emotionally?


There is nothing else that you have said IMO more than points to him having an affair than the above statement. He knows he is using you right now. Your gut is spot on. You need to get evidence and TELL HIM NO MORE or y ou are GONE. The longer you let him cake eat, the worse your chances for reconciliation.



Catherine602 said:


> He is having an affair with her.


Pit is spot on about the car wreck. It's like once your eyes have been unveiled the first time, you see it over and over again.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

_Top 9 Signs Your Spouse Is Cheating
By Cathy Meyer, About.com Guide

You have a sinking feeling in the pit of your stomach, something is not right but you can't quite figure out what that feeling is about. Your spouse has become distant, he/she is working late on a regular basis or, maybe your spouse has moved out of the house with no explanation. You suspect there may be someone else but every time you bring it up with your spouse, he/she denies the possibility. All the signs are there but you don't have any proof. So, pay attention to the signs and your instinct but, be careful and don’t confuse signs with proof. 

1. "I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You."
If you hear these words, a big warning bell should go off. This is one of the most consistent things a cheating spouse will say. Your spouse may have a deep, loving bond with you but, intense feelings of passion can override the bond with you and cause your spouse to lose sight of his/her true feelings. The cheating spouse will develop what I call hormone - induced amnesia. The surging hormones and passion they feel in their new relationship can cause some very skewed thinking.

2. "We are just friends."
This is also another very predictable statement that will come from a cheating spouse. If your spouse is spending more and more time with this new “friend” then there is probably more to it than mere friendship. Your spouse may feel they have a lot in common with this person, that this person understands them and things they are going through. Whatever the reasons for the friendship, it’s a big warning sign and one you should take seriously.

3. A sudden need for privacy.
If things the two of you used to share openly suddenly become private pay attention cause something is probably up. He/she may start password protecting computer activity. Cell phone and credit card bills may be hidden. If you ask why or attempt to find out information that used to be common knowledge between the two of you, you will be accused of snooping or trying to control your spouse. Big warning sign!

4. "I need some space to figure out my feelings."
Men and women who are involved with someone else will request more space, time alone or away from the family. They may say it is due to confusion over their feelings or stress at work. This can be a sign that there is someone else and the spouse is trying to figure out ways to have more freedom.

5. Regular work habits change.
Working late, going to work at odd hours or, putting in more time than is normal on work related issues can be indications that a spouse is cheating. 

6. Spending a large amount of time on the computer.
In today’s world, with modern technology, a person looking for an affair doesn’t even have to leave their home. The ease of internet chat rooms, online dating sites and secret email accounts has caused an alarming increase in emotional affairs.

If your spouse is online more than usual, hanging out in chat rooms and visiting pornographic websites then you have reason to be alarmed.

7. Secretive phone calls and more time spent on the phone.
Emotional affairs occur primarily via the phone, especially cell phones. If you find your spouse hanging up suddenly when you enter the room or erasing the history on the cell phone and becoming defensive when asked about it, then you might want to check your phone records.

8. Behavior that just doesn't add up.
Not being where he/she was expected to be. Missing time they can't explain. Money that isn't accounted for. Receipts for things you don't have. Missing clothing. Clothing that does not belong to your family. Being caught in little lies about the details of the day.

9. Your Own fears and suspicions
If you find yourself looking for excuses for your spouse's behavior or trying to convince yourself that they would never cheat then that is a warning sign. Your intuition is frequently one of the best indicators that something is wrong. If you suspect your spouse might be cheating on you, do some investigating and then talk to him/her about what you've found. Do it in a way that is calm and courteous. Ask for honesty. Be prepared for lies. It is a sad fact that people having affairs become excellent liars. People who never told a lie before in their lives. Trust your gut instinct but get hard, cold proof also._
Cheating Wife or Husband - Signs Your Wife or Husband is Cheating


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

my husband has done all of these things! and still insists on being innocent. I cant help thinking though that i know this person and cant believe he would do this! but evidence is clearing pointing to the fact that he is. if i do accuse him or give him an ultimatum and he is innocent im ruining my chances of ever reconsiling. i really dont know what to do. i cant get access to his phone and sure whats to say hes deleting messages as hes getting them anyway!? i have no other way of proving this to me. i will know more though when his cell phone bill comes in. i cant believe he is doing this to us


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

If he can't respect you and drop all contact with her, which is def inappropriate (hello, he was FLIRTING with her and he's saying you don't meet his ENs yet he has no problem having sex with you), you need to decide i fyou want to be in a marriage like that. He's cheating.

You need hardcore proof. That's why it's important for you to find out definitively.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

dont know how im going to get the proof though! am really starting to get angry and resentful


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He isn't innocent. He is putting another woman ahead of you in his affections. He can tip toe around what to call it all he wants, but he is still spending time with HER that should be spent with his WIFE.

Print out a description of an emotional affair and hand it to him and ask him to read it. If he refuses, take it back and read it TO him.

Ask him to justify time spent with another female.

If he still refuses, you'll have to contact his parents, siblings, to let them know what he's doing and ask for their help talking to him. Also get HER info - husband, family - so you can contact them as well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

honeybum said:


> dont know how im going to get the proof though! am really starting to get angry and resentful


 All you need is a print out from your phone company of the texts/calls, which you should be able to get on line.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

i showed him a web page last night about EAs and he said whilst he understands why i showed it to him, it doesnt apply as he isnt doing anything wrong. i will just have to wait n his phone bill


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He's addicted to the 'high' he's getting by having another woman attracted to him. Of course he'll not admit it; then he'd have to give her up.

He won't give her up unless you flat out say 'Her or me.'

Trust me that 95% of all people like you who come here hem and haw and try to avoid saying 'her or me' and then, later, when the affair has gone on too long to save the marriage, come back and say they wish they would have listened to us.


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## ladyybyrd (Jan 4, 2011)

honeybum said:


> we sat up for most of last night talking and he said that the reason he was possessive with hs phone was that he knew i would look at it and get upset if i saw he was texting her. he saidthe lock on it was because a guy at work changed the language settings on it. He said that he would let me have access to his phone if i wanted as he has nothing to hide. I asked him to stop talking to her and as they have to work together thats not really possible but he said he will stop talking to her about us and me. he still wants to be her friend.
> when he was away with work i wrote him a letter and put it in his suitcase, he didnt get it til the last night and instead of texting me to say he got it, he texted her!
> he says that he is still very sexually attracted to me but the problem is emotionally he doesnt feel connected as he hasn felt like talking to me in ages about anything as i never listen. which is actually somewhat true.
> he says the 3some, for him is still the issue that he has and that it stole something from it. I cant understand this as he still maintains that it was great and loves talking about it! i cant stand to talk about it.
> we ended up having sex last night and it was amazing but i cant help feeling used. he knows im getting more from it emotionally than he is and he says he feels guilty afterwads because of that, but he says he cant help it as hes so turned on by me! im so confused! how do i reconnect emotionally?


He should stop talking to her even if they work together. He could ignore her and tell her to leave him alone. It sounds like he wants to talk to her, if he didn't, he wouldn't.

He is talking to another woman about your marriage instead of you. And also has an emotional connection with her and not with you.

I know that people who are suspicious of their spouses having an affair, don't see it at all. Don't see any of the warning signs. (I know I am one of them.) Then once the affair is all out in the open, everything makes perfect sense.

The line he gave you about the lock on his phone is bull****. It is his phone and he knows how to work it.

He wants to keep you confused and going in circles. If he doesn't then you will see the truth and he doesn't want that.

Keep a journal of all of his activities, When he goes to work, when he comes home. When he goes out, when he gets home. Any strange behavior and strange conversations he has with you. Anything you can think of that might be of help to you later on. After a while of doing this you will see a pattern. Hide it from him and dont let him see it.

Most people that are are having an affair, once you are on to them, they will change their tune to throw you off the track. This is why it is so hard to catch them once they know you suspicious, they cover their tracks better.

If you can get a hold of his phone and text her, act like you are him and see where the conversation goes. If they are "just" friends nothing will come of it, but if they arn't then you will have your proof right there.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Honey, what's going on? Anything new?


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

hes been off work for a few days so we have been spending a lot of time together going out and talking etc. we having been getting on really well and there has been subtle changes in him, for the good. he spoke to her on fri night but she phoned him about an upcoming course. i was in the house so heard a lot of the conversation. he still has his phone attatched to him, but he isnt on it all the time. its just in his pocket. he said he looked a me the other day and realised that he does still love me, but that he feels really confused as we still have issues to work on. i told him how i was feeling about her and he said that nothing is going on, that she is just a good listener and i need to understand that he needs to talk to someone about al this, as i have done with my friend. he says i need to trust him as he would never ever do anythng.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

honeybum said:


> hes been off work for a few days so we have been spending a lot of time together going out and talking etc. we having been getting on really well and there has been subtle changes in him, for the good. he spoke to her on fri night but she phoned him about an upcoming course. i was in the house so heard a lot of the conversation. he still has his phone attatched to him, but he isnt on it all the time. its just in his pocket. he said he looked a me the other day and realised that he does still love me, but that he feels really confused as we still have issues to work on. i told him how i was feeling about her and he said that nothing is going on, that she is just a good listener and i need to understand that he needs to talk to someone about al this, as i have done with my friend. he says i need to trust him as he would never ever do anythng.


If you are trying to work on your relationship would your relationship call a guy friend that you really like to talk to him before you spoke to your husband? 

Speaking to another woman about his problems is the definitions of an EA. If it is not physical yet it will be if he keeps up contact. When ones talks to the opposite sex about emotional problems and their is a attraction and lots of time spent together, things naturally happen. Feelings evolve and they fall in love. 

He is lying to you. The phone is classic hiding what they are talking about the rationalizations are typical, the inability to stop seeing her is common even when he knows it hurts his wife. He will never hurt you tell him he is hurting you now. 

He'll tell you he will not hurt you today and then tell you he is leaving you for her tomorrow. It happens all of the time. Sticking your head in the sand will not make it go away, makes it more difficult to fight because you are giving the attachment time to solidify. 

Unfortunately, in time he may give you the bad news, he has fallen in love with her if he has not already and he is not in love with you. it is very possible that he just making sure that he really wants to leave you for her and he is stringing you along until he is sure.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The next time she calls, ask to be let in as a 3rd party.

When he tells you she's just a friend, tell him you want to see the texts.

Don't let him gaslight you, ok?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)




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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

^ Who knew there was a book for that?!


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

well the bombshell has just been dropped and he finally admitted that they had sex 3 different times. i am officially a broken woman. i never evr thought it would come to this. i honestly sat reading your replies totally blind sighted - refusing to accept that he is human and could do this to me. he is devasted! he says that he does really love me and doubted it for a while, hence his actions but has now realised how he feels. bombshell no.2 - she texted him earlier after he said he no longer wants to see her to say she is pregnant with his baby, but is going for a termination and not to worry! i am going insane! i feel totally destroyed and really dont know what to do. i wish i could wake upfrom this nightmare


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hi Honeybum - this is devastating news but also an opportunity. This is such a delicate time in your relationship so before you say or do anything, PM Affaircare, a member of the forum, for advice and guidance. She is a great resource. Hang in there, all is not loss, you have some work to do but you still have each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

how do i find her?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

honeybum said:


> how do i find her?


Sorry should have included the link http://talkaboutmarriage.com/members/affaircare.html it wont come out as a link copy it and paste into your browser. Post back if you have a problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

Honeybum, 
Now that the truth is out you have to decide if saving your marriage is your goal. 
First of all the affair has to stop you can't fix anything while he is still involved with his OW. NO CONTACT is a must, this is what you say to him.
Tell him it is unacceptable to you that he is having an affair while being married to you and living in the same house, he will have to chose which relationship is more important to him. 
He stops the affair, absolutely no contact with her or he moves out.
This will be tough and he might chose that path, don't panic, you have to set your boundaries, right now he is cake eating, getting something from both of you, why would he change anything...he will not until you stand up for your marriage.......
He will have to give you complete access to all his communication devices so his life is transparent. 
In the meantime you stay calm and tell him that you still love him and want to work together to make the marriage good for both of you, but you will under no circumstances do this while he is still involved with another woman.
If he refuses then you must expose the affair, the best way to destroy an affair is to make the affair couple accountable. 
That means his family, his work, your family, your friends and the OW's family and friends, affairs thrive in secrecy, when the reality of what they have done is out in the open it's a whole different story.........If you have children they must be told as well 
It's hard to continue an affair when everyone is watching.......
Then you remove yourself from the equation, if he isn't getting what he was from you and the OW has to fill all his needs he will soon realize the grass isn't greener it's just grass with it's own problems.........
I would say let him feel the brunt of his decisions, let him self reflect and weigh out his choices....
If you don't remove yourself he will never change what he is doing, he doesn't have to, you are not standing up for yourself or your marriage.............until you do that..........he won't do anything positive for the marriage.....
This is tough to do, in every marriage one of you has to be stronger this is your chance.........
And remember even if he choses to leave because right now he is in the middle of affair fog thinking doesn't mean he won't come to his senses, without you forcing him to do so, he will continue to do what he is doing............
good luck keep posting here for support....


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

the affair has ended, he ended it last weekend and since then she has twxted him to say she loves him and is pregnant but has booked a termination. he wants no more contact with her and has taken the lock off his phone and his being open and honest. 
i just dont see a way out of this, as much as i want it


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

honeybum, 

Look don't believe anything you hear right now remember your husband is capable of making decisions that don't have your best interests at heart........
People who have affairs are great liars as well, they have learned how to hide and lie their way through an affair and deceive the ones closest to them.......
So the ball is in your court right now. I would get all the facts and give yourself some time to contemplate what you are going to chose for yourself. Educate yourself as much as you can about fog babble in affairs, No Contact for life, and Exposure. Then read up on how to over come an affair, many good books out there Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley............
Tell your husband you are going to take some time to think things through whether you are going to continue in this marriage.
Tell him you won't be any part of him having another woman on the side he will have to remove himself from the life he knows with you if this is his choice, I would sit your children down and let them know what is happening the last thing you want is to have them find out some other way......
I would book a therapy session for yourself and maybe visit your doctor for some anti anxiety meds, it helps for the short term you will need it for............
Make sure you take care of yourself, you need to keep up your strength......
If you want to fight then fight for what is yours, but get everything you want now, this is your chance for changing what was not right in the first place, affairs sometimes can be eye openers.........
good luck and (hugs)


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Honey, this is a MAJOR MAJOR point in your marriage.
If your goal is the save your marraige, you MUST tell him that you WILL NOT AT ALL UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE live in an open marriage. That if he does nto end it completely, you will take all apporpriate actions including up to and filing for divorce.

And then you have to MEAN it. He will NOT faec the consequences of what he's done til you're serious.

She could be lying about being pregnant. He could be lying about not cutting off contact wit her.

What YOU do now will set the tone for your relationship. You must be a firm, dignified woman who isn't going to take any of his sh-t.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

he has stopped all contact from her. she sent him a message last on fri night saying "sorry to annoy you, just wanted to know how you are?" he didnt reply. then the next morning he replied back to he ( we did it together) that his heart and home was with me and that she was not to contact him anymore and that i now knew everything. he hasnt had a reply since. he is so remorsefull and a broken man, but i just cant feel any sympathy for him,. i know i want to work this out as i love him so much, i just dont know how im going to do it, let alone get the image of the 2 of them out of my head! the doc has given me some anti anxiety meds as im trying so hard to keep myself tyogether for my daughters sake. my friends all think i should kick him out, but i just cant do it!


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry you're going through this hb! I started reading your posts and was hoping for the best, but wasn't surprised when you got the bombshell. Pit-of-my-stomach's analogy is so fitting, but I didn't want you to experience the truck impact too. Now here you are on the side of the road with the rest of us, but it does get better. 

I'm almost 3 months from finding out about my husband's EA/PA and it doesn't hurt as much it did those first few weeks. Hoping that with time and counseling it will keep getting better. Not going to lie, I still have bad days. Days where the unfairness of it all makes me so angry I want to spit and kick him in the cojones. So, on those days, I look at a picture of our children to give me strength.

Good luck and know you will not be going through this alone. Many of us here are still freshly burned and know all to well the pain of infidelity. Remember to eat, sleep and take care of yourself and we'll be here to support you.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Honey, anything new?


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

thanks saffron, your words have really helped me. as has everyones elses support on this site. i dont know where i wold be without all the advice i have got. hes trying really hard to make me feel loved and wanted and is really making an effort around the house and to so nice things for me. i just keep thnking that this situation is far from over yet esp as this ow may be pregnant. whats killing me is that we have been trying for baby no 2 for 2 years and in 3 encounters with her, hes given her the one thing i have wanted for so long. its just heartbreaking. i so want to fell close to him and am sill very much in love and attracted to him buut cant bring myself to touch him hardly. we are seeing a mc this week and i realy hope his helps us. i do believe that he is very sorry for what hes done but i dont trust him and not sure i ever will. hes been my best friend since we were 15 and i am still struggling that he did this to me. its like a nightmare that i cant wake up from. the meds the doc gave me are just not really working, they just make me sleepy! i mde he mistake of demanding to know intimate details about what they did - i dont know why i did this - and i made him tell me and now i just cant get the images out of my head. if i didnt have my beautiful daughter, i think i would just run away. i really want yo make this work, he has cut off all contact with her, but if it turns out that she is pregnant, he has to own up to this responsability and i dont think we would survive. however she only told him she was preg when after she told him she loved him and he responded with well i dont i love my wife, the 3 days later she was preg, so im hoping that shes just trying to be twisted. i have never been so filled with hate in my life, but at the same time i want to protct my hubby from this evil witch of a woman. im so lost


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You're a woman and a mother. You will endure because you must. 

{{{honeybum}}}


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

My heart breaks for you honeybum, the possibility of a child from his infidelity makes it even more difficult. I hope the OW is lying, but only time will tell.

Not sure it helps to hear, but it's worth a try. I found out this summer that my Grandpa had cheated on my Grandma. It was after 30 years of marriage and the OW became pregnant. The child was put up for adoption and my Grandparents stayed together. I never knew. We even celebrated their 70th wedding anniversary a few years before he died. I haven't talked to my Grandma about it, but my Mom said that even decades later Grandma would still have moments where she'd feel "so angry". But I don't think she ever regretted staying together. The affair had already happened by the time I was born and all I ever saw was a happy couple that seemed to truly enjoy each other's company. 

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that people can survive it. However, I do think those of us that decide to stay and forgive do sacrifice a little something of ourselves. We give up the innocence we felt in our marriages and a sense of security we may never feel again. However, if it means I may end up in a more emotionally intimage marriage, perhaps it'll be worth the sacrifice.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

your words are a real comfort for me. I really hope that one day we will be celebrating our 50 year + anniversary. i am just not 100% sure of that right now. i am a real type of person that holds on to a grudge! i am hoping that our mc sessions will help us. its the chance that there might have been alife created out of this that kills me. ii think that may be the deal breaker, if she keeps it. she says shes booked in for a termination.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

i so need someone to talk to that knows what im going through. am feeling so desperate. H wants to be intimate and while i could so get easily into it i just cant stop the images. i feel like im losing my mind


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

confused by what?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What are you two doing to deal with your feelings?


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

for the last week we have been doing a lot of talking. and drinking! that has stoppped now as we have realised the drink doesnt help. but we are still talking. most nights until 3 am! i have also stopped taking the meds the doc gave me cos they were not making me feel anything and i have come to realise that i need to go through all these emotions to get past this. My husband is a real mess. he keeps crying and shaking and having complete meltdowns. hes so ashamed of what he has done and i truely believe hes sorry and remorseful. he has taken full responability for his actions and totally blames himself, rightly so. there has been no contact with the ow for over a week now. he gave me full access to his phone and email. but i am still paranoid. im hoping that she was lying about the baby and that his last text he sent her hit the nail on the head for her and she has realised that they have no future. I am having good moments and bad moments, mostly when i get the mental images of them together. but my H is being very loving and affectionate towards me. i have to admit, im enjoying it. we have tried having sex but i couldnt do it, until today when my daughter was at school, and whilst it was real love making and great, i felt really guilty afterwards. he didnt pressure me or anything but i did feel bad after. we are booked in to have our first MC session next week so hopefully that will help, but to be honest, we have hashed out almost everything there is to talk about on our own, so we'll see how the MC goes. i am stil getting quite panicy about things during the day, but am taking herbal meds from chemist that dont make me feel spacey but calm me down. i just really hope this OW is lying about the baby. we worked out that she most likely is as dates and other stuff just dont match up. also the fact that she only said this after he ended it with her. and then he confessed to me, we sent her a message together saying that he didnt want her, was in love with me and didnt want the baby and she hasnt replied since. what you think?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds great. Why did you feel guilty today?


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

i think i felt guilty because i dont think i was really ready to do it. i just got lost inthe moment! i keep having these images of him and her doing the same things. he says it was nothing like me and him and that it was just sex but i am still finding it difficult to deal with, esp as he has only ever been with me. well not now anymore! and that kills me


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Note: Vast generalization coming; no tomatoes, please.

Maybe you've not been introduced to the concept, but in truth, that could very well be true. Men are biologically created to want it more - much more - than most women. Women can LIKE it, but men NEED it; it's part of our biological makeup. I've been around men all my life, and I'm here to tell you that - from the age of 10 or 12, it is at the forefront of their mind A LOT. I'm talking dozens of times a day in many cases. Of the men I know, they look at every single woman they see in terms of it, they think about getting more, it's always on their mind. So, when a man cheats, IMO, it often IS just about getting some release or trying something new or whatever...and NOTHING like we think it would be if WE were to cheat. Women typically cheat to get an emotional connection they're missing from their husbands; men...not so much - they just want more.

So don't be so hard on yourself OR him in terms of it ruining your 'special' time. It's quite possible that, with you, it really is special to him that he wouldn't have gotten anywhere else.


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

This affair with the OW started out as emotional as they had so much in common and he says they genuinely were friends, then she started pursuing him in a sexual way and because things werent great at home, he fell for it. Then the lying started and they were sharing and talking alot. He was telling her all about us and our problems and he even said she was giving him advice about us! 

when he told her he was going camping for a night she suggested going too as she was thinking of doing it anyway. He said she brought up a botte of Jack daniels for them to share. That night he says is he first time they did it. Then the following week he was in a course with work about 80 miles away for 3 days. He said on the second night she arrived up with some books she had to give a lecturer. She also brought up more alcohol and offered to stay and test him for his exam. They ended up doing it again. she then turned up the next night, again with more alcohol and stayed the night again. 

He says he never meant for any of this to happen, but you cant blame the drink. not for 3 times anyway! After this, she then started texting saying that she was in love with him and really missing him. The texts turned from sex ones to emotional ones. He swears that he never replied anything like that to her, but that she did call him honey and he called her chick. He said that was the point when he realised what he'd done then said to her that he needed space from her to work on his marriage. 

There was no texts then for 3/4 days til she textd him to say we needed to talk. He rang her whilst i was out and she said she was pregnant but that she had booked a termination and not to worry and not to be telling me. He told her he didnt want this baby or her and that he was really scared. This is when he told me everything. 

This was over a week ago. She sent him a text the next day saying sorry to annoy you just want to know youre ok? we both texted back that he was not ok, that he wanted to work on his marriage that he loved me deeply and could never ever be with anyone else. we havent heard from her since. 

She showed him also that she has an implant contraceptive device and she told him she was pregnant 3 weeks after they had sex. my husband says he was that drunk he doesnt even remember if he "finished" and if i know him, he propb didnt! what do you make of all this? i pray shes lying


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

honeybum, do me a favor, please, and go back in and edit your post with paragraphs (and maybe capitalize your sentences, please?). Your posts are really hard for my old eyes to follow, all in one big block and no capitalization.

Thanks!


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

sorry! its done now


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

thanks. 

Ok, it sounds like the two of you had problems before she appeared, right?

What are you doing to rectify that?

What did YOU contribute toward those problems? How are you changing yourself? Have you talked about them?

I will tell you that quite a lot of men are not going to turn down SF when it's thrown in their face like that. That's just the way some guys are. As I tried to say in my previous post. They see it as SUCH a big NEED of theirs (not just a want, but a need), that they feel justified accepting it from women who throw themselves at them.

Especially if there are already problems at home.

I'm going to make a big assumption here that, because you were having problems, you didn't feel like giving him much SF, as is common with a lot of women. So now he's even more desperate for SF, and she comes along.

Note that I am NOT excusing what he did. 

I'm trying to get you to be able to see something of what his mind has been going through. You need to understand each other to be able to work past the problems.

So, what are you doing to focus on those?

PS: Can you tell I'm trying to get you to stop harping on the OW and focus on YOU?


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## honeybum (Mar 7, 2011)

yeah i can! i know i need to focus on me and us. its just that its still so fresh. our biggest problem before her was that we stopped communicating. we would have chatted about things, mostly our daughter or general evryday things, but not about anything important or how we were feeling especially.

He would ask me what was wrong and i would just answer "nothing" and sulk. and he would just put on a mask that everything was ok or he would just go out with his mate over the fields with the dogs. 

we stoppped going out and spending time with just us. The last time we went out for a drink or a meal together was well over a year ago. We did go out, but it was always with a group of people and we would have gone our seperate ways. 

We ahve talked about this a lot over the last few weeks and have actually started making time for each other and enjoying each others company again. We forgot that we do have many things in common and we do have such a laugh with each other. 

As for me, i am on the path of losing my weight, mostly as i havent been eating right for a while - understandably! And im doing that for me. Im going out with my friend tomo night to a concert and 2 weeks ago I took on a part time job which feels great.


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