# porn and romance novels



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Romance novels can become addictive By Kimberly Giles
Romance Novels: Dangerous, Harmless, or Just Fun?
{A&E} Romance Novels: Another Form of Porn?****** Bardsley 
Romance Novel – To A Man – Reads Like Female Porn BY ALEX MARSHALL

Are romance novels as bad for relationships as porn?Katherine Feeney 

this type of books are leading the sales by the greatest margin of any type out there.

and many experts now think they are as harmful of porn to a relationship, that many women use this as an escape and are addicted to them and start using it as a ruler to gauge their own relationship which can lead to unreasonable expectations and more prone to cheat.

just food for thought.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

I can believe it.

I think these things have to be used pretty sparingly. Such as just another tool in one's sexuality. The problem is when it becomes the singularity of one's sexuality.

And I think just like habits, we have to monitor how often we are using these tools so that they don't become a habit. Habit can lead to addiction. So I do think the more often one engages in porn or sexual romance novel fantasy, it will become a habit. When it tips over to addiction is when it leads to the highs/lows.


----------



## LuvIsTuff (Feb 20, 2015)

Porn distorts and perverts a man's view of what a woman is and should be in the area of sex. Romance novels do the same to women. They paint a picture of what women wish men were, but aren't. With that said, I try to be the guy in the romance novel, that my wife wishes I would be and I wouldn't object to her trying to be a porn star in my bed.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

chillymorn said:


> Romance novels can become addictive By Kimberly Giles
> Romance Novels: Dangerous, Harmless, or Just Fun?
> {A&E} Romance Novels: Another Form of Porn?****** Bardsley
> Romance Novel – To A Man – Reads Like Female Porn BY ALEX MARSHALL
> ...


I've read so many articles that are on opposite sides of this argument. I've read a lot of experts who say if two people are committed to each other but one has a much higher sex drive than the other then it's fine for them to use porn or erotic literature and masturbation as a way to supplement the difference in drive. That's a healthy outlet. Cheating isn't.

For those people who think love should always be honeymoon-type love or newlywed love then this won't help them. They're probably going to cheat.


----------



## Oldmatelot (Mar 28, 2011)

Are they addictive? I can agree that they are. But it depends if you have an addictive personality. I just posted in another thread about my wife's Kindle. Fully kinked. Is she addicted? No, she leaves it for months at a time. Does it affect our lives? Somewhat, I know if she's been reading it I had better be ready.


----------



## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

chillymorn said:


> Romance novels can become addictive By Kimberly Giles
> Romance Novels: Dangerous, Harmless, or Just Fun?
> {A&E} Romance Novels: Another Form of Porn?****** Bardsley
> Romance Novel – To A Man – Reads Like Female Porn BY ALEX MARSHALL
> ...


It probably has the same effect that soap operas did back in the day. I'm not a book worm. The types of books I read are self help or if I'm doing a women's bible study. I think we are all looking for an escape from reality at times, especially those of us who feel overwhelmed. I hate to admit it but I like to watch the housewives reality shows. Yes it's trash tv and maybe even scripted, but it's an escape from MY reality. It's just entertainment. I'm mature enough to know what's acceptable in real life and what isn't. A younger woman may look at those shows and it may plant seeds of divorce since everyone on those shows end up divorced. On the flip side, thousands of husbands are appreciative of books like 50 shades, bc they are benefiting from it. I don't know if wives benefit from their hubbies watching porn?.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I personally feel that if used in excess they both are bad.

and that steering clear of them would be best.

I do see a double standard with the whole porn is bad but romance novels are just reading so its ok.

I also see a double standard with sex toys and how if a man can't orgasm with a woman its because hes trained himself with porn a tight grip and unrealistic expectations of what a real woman will do sexually or what she should look like etc,etc

if a man can train himself can a woman train her self?

are not romance novels unrealistic expectations of what real life romance is like. if you don't take the time to explore you self with your fingers only until you mastered how to orgasm then are you not training yourself to only orgasm through clit only response .

I have read articles by sex therapists say this exact thing I have read testimonials from women who actually realized this and stopped using their toy and through practice retaught themselves how to orgasm through PIV which they never did before. 

I have no problem with any of this as long as both partners are happy with their sex life you could use a jackhammer as a sex aid and if both are cool with it great.


----------



## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

chillymorn said:


> I personally feel that if used in excess they both are bad.
> 
> and that steering clear of them would be best.
> 
> ...


It is a double standard. However, I do want to say that porn is used more often than romance novels so the stigma is going to be attached to porn more. While I do think there is undoubtedly a gendered double bias, bias may also be coming from the larger volume of use.

Edit: I don't think I made this clear. I am not for double standards.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think they are equivalent. Both are fine as long as they do not take attention away from your partner, and as long as you fully understand that they are fantasy.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> I do see a double standard with the whole porn is bad but romance novels are just reading so its ok.


I think the reason for that is because romance novels tend to lead to more sex between the couple, while porn is usually used as a masturbation tool and the couple does not have as much sex. Just look at all the 50 Shades of Grey babies there are, as the amount of sex people were having went up a lot since the book was released. The books turn women on and have more sex. Porn, as mentioned before, is typically a one person deal. 

Porn is also a visual aid, as you can see what the woman looks like. The man's wife/SO can't change her looks, so she is SOL if the guy wants someone who looks like the porn star. Books describe actions/things that happen, so a man could act differently to fulfill that fantasy. 

Personally, I don't read those types of books and also don't like porn, so I'm not a fan of either one.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Anonymous07 said:


> I think the reason for that is because romance novels tend to lead to more sex between the couple, while porn is usually used as a masturbation tool and the couple does not have as much sex. Just look at all the 50 Shades of Grey babies there are, as the amount of sex people were having went up a lot since the book was released. The books turn women on and have more sex. Porn, as mentioned before, is typically a one person deal.
> 
> Porn is also a visual aid, as you can see what the woman looks like. The man's wife/SO can't change her looks, so she is SOL if the guy wants someone who looks like the pron star. Books describe actions/things that happen, so a man could act differently to fulfill that fantasy.
> 
> Personally, I don't read those types of books and also don't like porn, so I'm not a fan of either one.


Just from the little net research I did I found that its a growing problem and many therapist indicat it is just as bad as porn and sex suffers in a marriage where the wife over uses it.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Media just gives people what they want.

People try to say that the media is the problem, but the media is just a window.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening anonymous07
Its true that my wife can't look like a porn star, but I can't become a billionaire, an earl, cowboy or vampire.

I can (and do) behave romantically - flowers, love notes touches, etc. 

But then she could (but doesn't) engage in a wider range of sexual behaviors. 


Porn and romance both create unrealistic expectations. They are fine as fantasy, but both create problems when they are substituted for real intimacy. 



Anonymous07 said:


> snip
> The man's wife/SO can't change her looks, so she is SOL if the guy wants someone who looks like the porn star. Books describe actions/things that happen, so a man could act differently to fulfill that fantasy.
> 
> .


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening anonymous07
> Its true that my wife can't look like a porn star, but I can't become a billionaire, an earl, cowboy or vampire.
> 
> I can (and do) behave romantically - flowers, love notes touches, etc.
> ...


:iagree:

perfectly said.

would like to add, men are visual so porn lends itself to their weakness and the same is true for romance novels, women tend to be more erotic which romance novels play to their weakness.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Marriedwithdogs said:


> It probably has the same effect that soap operas did back in the day. I'm not a book worm. The types of books I read are self help or if I'm doing a women's bible study. I think we are all looking for an escape from reality at times, especially those of us who feel overwhelmed. I hate to admit it but I like to watch the housewives reality shows. Yes it's trash tv and maybe even scripted, but it's an escape from MY reality. It's just entertainment. I'm mature enough to know what's acceptable in real life and what isn't. A younger woman may look at those shows and it may plant seeds of divorce since everyone on those shows end up divorced. On the flip side, *thousands of husbands are appreciative of books like 50 shades, bc they are benefiting from it.* I don't know if wives benefit from their hubbies watching porn?.


True, there are lot of men would have no problems being a masturbation tool for their wives...I'm not one of them.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening anonymous07
> Its true that my wife can't look like a porn star, but I can't become a billionaire, an earl, cowboy or vampire.


Women typically want romantic actions, so the fantasy is not about who the guy is, but what he does(the romance). She doesn't care if you're the billionaire or the guy who works at some other job. 

Anyways, my point was that romance novels tend to lead to more sex, while porn does the opposite. There are a number of studies that show that reading romance novels can lead to women having more sex. Just something to point out for why many people view romance novels as "ok", while porn is "bad".


----------



## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Anonymous07 said:


> Women typically want romantic actions, so the fantasy is not about who the guy is, but what he does(the romance). She doesn't care if you're the billionaire or the guy who works at some other job.
> 
> Anyways, my point was that romance novels tend to lead to more sex, while porn does the opposite. There are a number of studies that show that reading romance novels can lead to women having more sex. Just something to point out for why many people view romance novels as "ok", while porn is "bad".


Agreed. So true!


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> Women typically want romantic actions, so the fantasy is not about who the guy is, but what he does(the romance). She doesn't care if you're the billionaire or the guy who works at some other job.
> 
> Anyways, my point was that romance novels tend to lead to more sex, while porn does the opposite. There are a number of studies that show that reading romance novels can lead to women having more sex. Just something to point out for why many people view romance novels as "ok", while porn is "bad".


I wonder though if the reasons for this are due to the differences in how men and women view this whole issue...

Many men wouldn't care how their woman got all horned up, so long as he gets the end result...thus romance novels leading to more sex...not so much because their woman wants sex with them in particular, they are just horny, and their husband is receptive to being their outlet.

Many women on the other hand do care very much how their husbands get horned up, and will reject their man if he is horned up by someone other than them, thus porn decreasing the amount of sex...


----------



## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Back in the mid nineties, there was a coworker of mine who would devour romance novels like there was no tomorrow. Kinda had me scratching my head because she was a brilliant engineer and very pretty. I always pictured her reading literature about science and whatnot...heh. Anyway, she was an adulterer too. I know because I was her OM for quite awhile. Not sure if it was the novels that led her astray or the fact that her husband was about 30 years older than her...that was another "WTF" for me.

Having never perused one of these "romance" novels, are they as "steamy" as I've been led to believe? Just curious.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I love reading erotica.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening anonymous07
> Its true that my wife can't look like a porn star, but I can't become a billionaire, an earl, cowboy or vampire.
> 
> I can (and do) behave romantically - flowers, love notes touches, etc.
> ...



Perhaps you can't become a cowboy, a billionaire, or a vampire. Any woman who thinks less of her man who isn't the profession of the cheesy romance she reads is...AN IDIOT!

But you can become a more in tuned lover. You can learn new things. You can do all sorts of things that turn her on about the guy in romance.

I both read and write erotica. I read a LOT of erotica. And yes it is like porn in that it is sexually stimulating. But don't for a minute think that the men I read about have become the gold standard for real men. Because....I am not AN IDIOT!


----------



## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

My wife reads something on the magnitude of 2 to sometimes 5 books a week. 

50% are work/home/farm related

The other half is some romance and some straight written word chick porn. The stuff she gets out of those books....has been

AWESOME.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

MountainRunner said:


> Back in the mid nineties, there was a coworker of mine who would devour romance novels like there was no tomorrow. Kinda had me scratching my head because she was a brilliant engineer and very pretty. I always pictured her reading literature about science and whatnot...heh. Anyway, she was an adulterer too. I know because I was her OM for quite awhile. Not sure if it was the novels that led her astray or the fact that her husband was about 30 years older than her...that was another "WTF" for me.
> 
> Having never perused one of these "romance" novels, are they as "steamy" as I've been led to believe? Just curious.


its all about the romance and chase.

I'll give my take on the few I tried to read before just to see what there about.

a pretty woman down on her luck .......no fault of her own of course. finds herself in a strange new place for some crazy reason . meets a good looking guy early in the novel that she kind of thinks is an a$$ at first. he tries to hit on her and she rebuffs him because she thinks hes an a$$.

as things unfold she realizes that hes not an a$$ he might even be the most interesting man in the world. or an heir to so long lost fortune that she just happens to find out by accident. now every time there is a meeting they have this love hate filtration happening. dose she like or not conflict going on he dose something that pi$$es her off then she finds out why and thinks hes so cool for doing it. the tension builds until just by happen stance they end alone and have to spend the night together . when the finally have sex. hes the best kisser his d!ck is just the right size and he lasts long enough to give her her first multiple orgasms. then she feel bad for putting out but can't stop thinking about him and she fights those feeling but the tension is just to great and the next time it happens all over again. 


the sex scenes are usually kind of tame in my opinion its all about the lead up and tension that builds.

pretty hard to compete with as I am just an ordinary guy who put his family first pays bills and everything else I do is not up to snuff.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I wonder though if the reasons for this are due to the differences in how men and women view this whole issue...
> 
> Many men wouldn't care how their woman got all horned up, so long as he gets the end result...thus romance novels leading to more sex...not so much because their woman wants sex with them in particular, they are just horny, and their husband is receptive to being their outlet.
> 
> Many women on the other hand do care very much how their husbands get horned up, and will reject their man if he is horned up by someone other than them, thus porn decreasing the amount of sex...



Now this is an interesting discussion to have.

My husband is more than happy to be woken up by me when I've read something that has turned me on. Having experienced that, the times we watch porn together, I know full well that it is the poem that horned him up and not me, and I'm okay with that.

But your post, Sam, presents an interesting dichotomy that I think might be more true than not.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I wonder though if the reasons for this are due to the differences in how men and women view this whole issue...
> 
> Many men wouldn't care how their woman got all horned up, so long as he gets the end result...thus romance novels leading to more sex...not so much because their woman wants sex with them in particular, they are just horny, and their husband is receptive to being their outlet.
> 
> Many women on the other hand do care very much how their husbands get horned up, and will reject their man if he is horned up by someone other than them, thus porn decreasing the amount of sex...


I don't know of any woman who wants to be compared to a porn star(air brushed, fake moaning, fake breasts, etc). Typically, in porn, the man just uses the woman to get off and she "loves" it. He spends little to no attention on the woman, but she is "screaming with excitement" and licking her fingers. A man who gets hot and heavy from that isn't exactly a turn on to women. No one wants a selfish lover. 

In regards to romance novels, the woman gets turned on and wants to be all over he husband. She's not looking to just please herself, but wants the romantic connection with him.

These are obviously generalizations, but it's just one way to look at the issue for why many view porn and novels the way they do. 



MountainRunner said:


> Having never perused one of these "romance" novels, are they as "steamy" as I've been led to believe? Just curious.


I haven't read a full romance novel, but have read some snippets here and there. They can/do go into detail about what is happening, the actions of the romance. "The man slowly brushed her hair aside, as he kissed her neck and ran his hand along her collar bone. She breathed heavily." Things like that, that are very sensual.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Perhaps you can't become a cowboy, a billionaire, or a vampire. Any woman who thinks less of her man who isn't the profession of the cheesy romance she reads is...AN IDIOT!
> 
> But you can become a more in tuned lover. You can learn new things. You can do all sorts of things that turn her on about the guy in romance.
> 
> I both read and write erotica. I read a LOT of erotica. And yes it is like porn in that it is sexually stimulating. But don't for a minute think that the men I read about have become the gold standard for real men. Because....I am not AN IDIOT!


I think a large majority of people men and women who use the afford mentioned material can be like you and realize that its fantasy it the people who get addicted to it that have a problem with it and use it instead of being with your wife or husband.

but just like there are growing number of me having sexual problems because of porn I think there is a growing number of women who have a desire problem for there husband because of their over use of romance novels.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

In regards to romance novels, the woman gets turned on and wants to be all over he husband. She's not looking to just please herself, but wants the romantic connection with him.

so you speak for all women 

I think many women just please themselves just like men do.

don't kid yourself.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Visual porn for men involves a woman who doesn't require anything from the man except an erect penis. Porn for men is about sex without effort. The woman is making herself totally available with no effort in the man's part.

Erotica for women always includes a relationship. The relationship is driven by the man. He is intense! He will let nothing get in his way. Whether she ays hard to get or falls into his arms immediately, the man is doing most of the work to make it happen.

Porn/erotica its candy for your sex drive.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> *I don't know of any woman who wants to be compared to a porn star(air brushed, fake moaning, fake breasts, etc). Typically, in porn, the man just uses the woman to get off and she "loves" it. He spends little to no attention on the woman, but she is "screaming with excitement" and licking her fingers. A man who gets hot and heavy from that isn't exactly a turn on to women. No one wants a selfish lover.
> 
> In regards to romance novels, the woman gets turned on and wants to be all over he husband. She's not looking to just please herself, but wants the romantic connection with him.*
> 
> ...


What you are presenting here is quite distorted in that it presents the worst case situation with men using porn, and best case with a woman using erotica. What you present is steeped in gender stereotype that I think are largely false.

What is presented in erotica, and hell, movies like Magic Mike are no less fake and unrealistic than any porn out there, yet a lot of men tend to be more accepting of their woman using outside stimulus, and accepting being the object of her release than the other way around.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Anon Pink
Everyone sees this sort of thing through the lens of their own experience. In my experience nothing I can do gets my wife interested in *me*. I think I am not seen as "romantic" even though I do romantic things. 


She does love stories that while not "romance" have strong romantic undertones. 



Anon Pink said:


> Perhaps you can't become a cowboy, a billionaire, or a vampire. Any woman who thinks less of her man who isn't the profession of the cheesy romance she reads is...AN IDIOT!
> 
> But you can become a more in tuned lover. You can learn new things. You can do all sorts of things that turn her on about the guy in romance.
> 
> I both read and write erotica. I read a LOT of erotica. And yes it is like porn in that it is sexually stimulating. But don't for a minute think that the men I read about have become the gold standard for real men. Because....I am not AN IDIOT!


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Visual porn for men involves a woman who doesn't require anything from the man except an erect penis. *Porn for men is about sex without effort*. The woman is making herself totally available with no effort in the man's part.
> 
> *Erotica for women always includes a relationship*. The relationship is driven by the man. He is intense! He will let nothing get in his way. Whether she ays hard to get or falls into his arms immediately, the man is doing most of the work to make it happen.
> 
> Porn/erotica its candy for your sex drive.


The bolded parts are typically why porn is seen as bad and erotic novels are ok.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Given the fact that the word "Pornography" was coined to describe the *written* word and that this is still the primary definition in every English dictionary, these threads are always interesting...


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> The bolded parts are typically why porn is seen as bad and erotic novels are ok.


Even though said man and relationship in erotica is generally just a fake and unrealistic as what is presented in porn.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> What you are presenting here is quite distorted in that it presents the worst case situation with men using porn, and best case with a woman using erotica. What you present is steeped in gender stereotype that I think are largely false.
> 
> What is presented in erotica, and hell, movies like Magic Mike are no less fake and unrealistic than any porn out there, yet a lot of men tend to be more accepting of their woman using outside stimulus, and accepting being the object of her release than the other way around.


Can't agree with you here Sam.

A07 was spot on. When a woman gets turned on from reading erotica and turns to her husband, she wants that intense connection she just read about. She is not looking to just have an orgasm. She wants to feel that intensity, she wants to share that intensity.

Like I said, erotica is relationship based. Women are relationship oriented. She is not using her husband as a masturbatory aid unless she simply climbs on him and humps his leg to get off. Even then, some men are cool with that too.

It's the relationship we covet. When we read about fun girlfriend relationships like Thelma and Louise we want that too! Except the ending, that we don't want.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> What you are presenting here is quite distorted in that it presents the worst case situation with men using porn, and best case with a woman using erotica. What you present is steeped in gender stereotype that I think are largely false.
> 
> What is presented in erotica, and hell, movies like Magic Mike are no less fake and unrealistic than any porn out there, yet a lot of men tend to be more accepting of their woman using outside stimulus, and accepting being the object of her release than the other way around.


I described what the typical porn story looks like. It tends to be all about the man, throwing the woman around who is just the hole he uses to get off, where as erotic novels are typically about the relationship. It's about the romance between the 2 characters in the story. 

I never mentioned that either of them are realistic. I just stated that novels tend to lead to more sex, while porn does the opposite.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Anon Pink
> Everyone sees this sort of thing through the lens of their own experience. In my experience nothing I can do gets my wife interested in *me*. I think I am not seen as "romantic" even though I do romantic things.
> 
> 
> She does love stories that while not "romance" have strong romantic undertones.


Good afternoon Richard,

Your wife is not a very sexual person. I have no doubt she loves you very much but her sexual base is very very low. I have no doubt that you have done everything possible to meet all her needs and create a sexy environment and it hasn't worked. I wish I could offer you something better than..this is the way she is. A sexual mismatch is no fun at all.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Can't agree with you here Sam.
> 
> A07 was spot on. When a woman gets turned on from reading erotica and turns to her husband, she wants that intense connection she just read about. She is not looking to just have an orgasm. She wants to feel that intensity, she wants to share that intensity.
> 
> ...


Suppose her husband was not there...would there not at least be the temptation for release by herself?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Can't agree with you here Sam.
> 
> A07 was spot on. When a woman gets turned on from reading erotica and turns to her husband, she wants that intense connection she just read about. She is not looking to just have an orgasm. She wants to feel that intensity, she wants to share that intensity.
> 
> ...


its all about the chemicals your brain feels when you orgasm.

the more aroused you are the better the orgasm the more chemical released. 

no different than a man using porn to get himself aroused more than normal and then having sex with his wife he will have a much stronger orgasm which will release more chemicals and feel better.


this is how it works for both men and women but women don't want to feel like it biology they want to feel warm and fizzy so they say its about the feeling they get from a relationship.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> Suppose her husband was not there...would there not at least be the temptation for release by herself?


I know mine would! and dose!


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I described what the typical porn story looks like. It tends to be all about the man, throwing the woman around who is just the hole he uses to get off, where as erotic novels are typically about the relationship. It's about the romance between the 2 characters in the story.
> 
> I never mentioned that either of them are realistic.* I just stated that novels tend to lead to more sex, while porn does the opposite*.


I don't disagree with this, but I think that it could at least in part be due to societal norms and conditioning in that men are generally more accepting of the end result of erotica than women are the end result of porn.

ETA...

How would you feel about a guy who planned to go to a strip club with his buddies. It had been years since the last time he went, before he met his wife in fact, and said to her...at least this time, I'll have a hot, sexy woman to come home to instead of my hand?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> Women typically want romantic actions, so the fantasy is not about who the guy is, but what he does(the romance). She doesn't care if you're the billionaire or the guy who works at some other job.
> 
> Anyways, my point was that romance novels tend *to lead to more sex, while porn does the opposite*. There are a number of studies that show that reading romance novels can lead to women having more sex. Just something to point out for why many people view romance novels as "ok", while porn is "bad".


with both porn and romance novels it depends on the user. I watch porn. Would have sex everyday with my GF on top of that if we could. Sometimes we watch together. 

She reads all the romance novel things but never expects me to act like that...well because I wouldn't anyway.

My x girlfriend read them too and had a HUGE distortion of what real romance was vs fantasy. To her the world was a Disney movie and she was Cinderella. :rofl: so if she didn't feel like she was being "romanced " enough then sex was off the table 

I see both as fantasy. Both are ok in moderation. Both can absolutely be damaging to relationship if it's not kept in check


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Suppose her husband was not there...would there not at least be the temptation for release by herself?


Temptation? You say that like its a bad thing? 

Yes, of course she WOULD masturbate if her husband wasn't there to engage with her, of course she would!

I fail to see the problem with that? Are you suggesting that a person in a relationship should not ever become aroused or masturbate unless their partner is present?


----------



## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

I can't speak for all women as I know there are some women who watch and enjoy porn. Women watch porn on lesser levels tho. When I watched porn with my hubby I felt dirty afterwards. The few ( maybe 1) romance novels left something to the imagination and you didn't see the act. Maybe it's something about strangers having sex in front of other strangers to get paid to get others off, that made me feel dirty after. I know we live in a progressive society and everything, but I still see sex as something that should be reserved for your mate, and it shouldn't be cheapened. Plus I don't know how men can tune out the fake screeching?!


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Temptation? You say that like its a bad thing?
> 
> Yes, of course she WOULD masturbate if her husband wasn't there to engage with her, of course she would!
> 
> I fail to see the problem with that? *Are you suggesting that a person in a relationship should not ever become aroused or masturbate unless their partner is present*?


Oh no..not at all! 

But it is a bit more difficult to make the argument that it's not at about the release, and more about the relationship and romance. Ultimately, it boils down to her getting horned up and wanting to get laid


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> its all about the chemicals your brain feels when you orgasm.
> 
> the more aroused you are the better the orgasm the more chemical released.
> 
> ...


That's not true. 

Oxytocin is the "love" chemical that is released during during sex/orgasms. That chemical is also released during hugging, labor/birth, breastfeeding, holding hands, and so on. It's a bonding hormone. Females also have estrogen which binds with oxytocin, making women feel the effects of oxytocin more strongly and look for that relationship. The effects of oxytocin diminish shortly after orgasm for men because of the chemical vasopressin, so they would rather roll over and be separated, while women want to cuddle. Therefore the effects of orgasms are very different in men and women.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Visual porn for men involves a woman who doesn't require anything from the man except an erect penis. Porn for men is about sex without effort. The woman is making herself totally available with no effort in the man's part.
> .


I guess this is one way of looking at it.

I think a better way is that porn shows the male fantasy of having a woman be so into him sexually that anything he does will get her off, and he can do whatever pops into his head and she will totally love it.

It's like being a rock star with a groupie-- the groupie is so excited to be with Mick Jagger (or whoever) that he can just do whatever he wants and she will still love it and think it is the best thing ever. She will do stuff with Mick that she would never do with her boyfriend or some random guy.

I think this is really what porn is appealing to.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

On the romance novel thing, I think it's sort of the same scenario as the male porn thing in a way.

The ordinary woman gets the complete attention of this totally unattainable guy. Mick Jagger is into me and me only! He could have any woman but he only wants me!

And because this totally off the charts guy wants her, she finds herself getting swept away and doing things she never expected.

Kind of like a porn star.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm lost (Nothing unusual...)



Anon Pink said:


> The woman is making herself totally available with no effort in the man's part.





Anon Pink said:


> He is intense!...the man is doing most of the work to make it happen.


This seems to me to be as clear a statement as it's humanly possible to make that *both* genres are promoting a, "Something for nothing" mentality. 

Surely ladies understand that this flood of emotional intensity is no more turned on at the drop of a hat or flip of a switch than their own sexuality is?


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I don't disagree with this, but I think that it could at least in part be due to societal norms and conditioning in that men are generally more accepting of the end result of erotica than women are the end result of porn.
> 
> ETA...
> 
> How would you feel about a guy who planned to go to a strip club with his buddies. It had been years since the last time he went, before he met his wife in fact, and said to her...at least this time, I'll have a hot, sexy woman to come home to instead of my hand?


I'm the wrong person to ask. I would not be okay with my husband going to a strip club at all. I also don't like porn and don't read romance novels. They are just not my thing. 

I'm not sure I agree with the beginning part either, as typically porn ends in masturbation instead of sex/romance novels tend to end in sex, not masturbation.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I guess this is one way of looking at it.
> 
> I think a better way is that porn shows the male fantasy of having a woman be so into him sexually that anything he does will get her off, and he can do whatever pops into his head and she will totally love it.
> 
> ...





Anon1111 said:


> On the romance novel thing, I think it's sort of the same scenario as the male porn thing in a way.
> 
> The ordinary woman gets the complete attention of this totally unattainable guy. Mick Jagger is into me and me only! He could have any woman but he only wants me!
> 
> ...


I don't think that porn for men and erotica for women are all that different because men and women aren't al that different. Both serve the same purpose...feed the libido, they are just delivered in the most receptive way for the respective gender. I do think there is a huge difference in what is considered acceptable...erotica is far more accepted than porn. I wonder how much of that is due to the perception that women are sexual gatekeepers? Hell, a man who gets to have sex with a woman is still said to have "gotten lucky"


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Surely ladies understand that this flood of emotional intensity is no more turned on at the drop of a hat or flip of a switch than their own sexuality is?


Really?


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I'm the wrong person to ask. I would not be okay with my husband going to a strip club at all. I also don't like porn and don't read romance novels. They are just not my thing.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with the beginning part either, as typically porn ends in masturbation* instead of sex/romance novels tend to end in sex, not masturbation*.


...except when her partner isn't there...

I agree with anon...when she gets all horned up from the intensely powerful relationship and romance in the book...she will take care of herself if her partner isn't there.

I think there are a lot of men who, if after watching a bit of porn had a wife who was receptive to his advances knowing he was horned up from porn, would most certainly rather have sex with their wife, and not just selfish, porn sex, but the whole foreplay, attending to her needs shebang...than masturbate along...just not many women would be receptive to that.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I do think there is a huge difference in what is considered acceptable...erotica is far more accepted than porn. I wonder how much of that is due to the perception that women are sexual gatekeepers? Hell, a man who gets to have sex with a woman is still said to have "gotten lucky"


I think the sexual gatekeeper thing has a lot to do with the different views.

Porn, prostitutes, strip clubs, "easy" women, etc reduce the value of female sexual currency.

In other words, being the "gatekeeper" doesn't mean much when there are a lot of ways around the gate.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

LuvIsTuff said:


> With that said, I try to be the guy in the romance novel,


*You read that crap?*


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> I'm lost (Nothing unusual...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are, you're right.

Porn, something (a willing woman to boink) for nothing. (No effort on the man's part to romance her woo her, he'll even take her to dinner!)

Erotica, something (an intense romantic sexy relationship with a hot stud who has a giant penis) for nothing. ( she doesn't have to chase him, he chases her)


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> *You read that crap?*


Learning to please your wife might keep her happy enough to keep it in one bed. Just a thought...


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> ...except when her partner isn't there...
> 
> I would think that is obvious. It's not physically possible to have sex if her partner isn't there, even if she really wanted to. I would much rather have sex with my husband than do anything alone. I want the emotional connection.
> 
> I think there are a lot of men who, if after watching a bit of porn had a wife who was receptive to his advances knowing he was horned up from porn, would most certainly rather have sex with their wife, and not just selfish, porn sex, but the whole foreplay, attending to her needs shebang...than masturbate along...just not many women would be receptive to that.


This is where it's questionable. For a number of men, it can be easier to just masturbate than have sex with their wife/SO. Instead of going to his wife horned up, he can take care of himself in less time and not have to worry about pleasing her. It can be seen as easier and less time consuming, with the same end result in an orgasm. You'll see many women complain about their husbands using porn instead of having sex with them, but I've yet to see a man complain about their wife reading romance novels because that does tend to lead to sex. Most men are not being replaced with the romance novels like many women are with porn.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Learning to please your wife might keep her happy enough to keep it in one bed. Just a thought...


:iagree:

I think he's a smart man to learn about what his wife is interested in.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> They are, you're right.
> 
> Porn, something (a willing woman to boink) for nothing. (No effort on the man's part to romance her woo her, he'll even take her to dinner!)
> 
> Erotica, something (an intense romantic sexy relationship with a hot stud who has a giant penis) for nothing. ( she doesn't have to chase him, he chases her)


Both play to their intended audiences in both content, and delivery medium, to serve the same purpose...feed the libido.

One just happens to reduce sex while the other increases it, and I do suspect that at least in part, it has to do with the fact that men are far more accepting of their woman getting horned up through an outside source than women are of their man getting horned up through outside sources.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> This is where it's questionable. For a number of men, it can be easier to just masturbate than have sex with their wife/SO. Instead of going to his wife horned up, he can take care of himself in less time and not have to worry about pleasing her. It can be seen as easier and less time consuming, with the same end result in an orgasm. You'll see many women complain about their husbands using porn instead of having sex with them, but I've yet to see a man complain about their wife reading romance novels because that does tend to lead to sex. The men are not being replaced with the romance novels *like many women are with porn*.


Which begs the question...how much of that is due to the man shutting the woman out, or self selection by the women by closing themselves off and not being a receptive partner to a man who uses porn?


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I don't believe women are typically "replaced" by porn all that often.

A man who knows he has a enthusiastic, attractive woman will always chose to be with her rather than masturbate.

On the other hand, I have actually found myself choosing to masturbate rather than attempt to initiate with my wife over the past few months. 

This is a new one for me, but it has come after years of rejection, which has lessened my attraction for her (so that even on the rare times that I am successful, it is just not that awesome for me anymore). 

If I was with someone else and knew on the typical Saturday night that I would always get a "yes" I would never do this.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Learning to please your wife might keep her happy enough to keep it in one bed. Just a thought...



:lol: I knew someone wouldn't get it as a joke.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

vellocet said:


> :lol: I knew someone wouldn't get it as a joke.


Only one?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Good afternoon Richard,
> 
> Your wife is not a very sexual person. I have no doubt she loves you very much but her sexual base is very very low. I have no doubt that you have done everything possible to meet all her needs and create a sexy environment and it hasn't worked. I wish I could offer you something better than..this is the way she is. A sexual mismatch is no fun at all.


You could suggest he doesn't have to keep it in one bed....just a thought


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Porn, something (a willing woman to boink) for nothing. (No effort on the man's part to romance her woo her, he'll even take her to dinner!)
> 
> Erotica, something (an intense romantic sexy relationship with a hot stud who has a giant penis) for nothing. ( she doesn't have to chase him, he chases her)


--Not that there's anything wrong with that. 

Both seem to have at their core a need to feel desirable, special, unique, or extraordinary in some way.


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Books could be just as bad as porn depending on the user. I swear all of this stuff should come with warning labels like my curling iron does (Do not put in eye, can burn!) It's obvious, but people still do it apparently. 

I personally don't read erotica. I don't have time to as I am with my kids all day. I wouldn't want my H watching porn if he was to be watching the kids - I don't read erotica while caring for the kids. 

I also don't read it, because I don't like it. I just think the fantasy of it all is too....fantasy-ish for me. Like it's not realistic at all. I don't get turned on by things I can't imagine actually happening to me. 

So, I think if the user takes it too far...yes, erotica could be just as addictive as porn.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

staarz21 said:


> Books could be just as bad as porn depending on the user. I swear all of this stuff should come with warning labels like my curling iron does (Do not put in eye, can burn!) It's obvious, but people still do it apparently.
> 
> I personally don't read erotica. I don't have time to as I am with my kids all day. I wouldn't want my H watching porn if he was to be watching the kids - I don't read erotica while caring for the kids.
> 
> ...


this is exactly how i feel about porn! its too fake and i want real life intimacy.


----------



## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I just think porn is horrible. If a guy sees several private parts that are not his wife's, then his wife being naked is not going to be as big of a deal as it would have been, and some become less attracted to their wife. As far as romance novels, I can see where that can hurt a marriage too. A woman sees these extravagant romantic notions by other men to women they love, so the romantic notions done by their husband (which could have been a big deal to the husband and well thought-out) could not seem like as big of a deal.

I believe that adults should be able to watch porn (which I personally don't agree with) or read romance novels, because it's their right to do what they want, but if it begins affecting the marriage in the SLIGHTEST, they need to be trashed right away. Marriage comes first, always.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

when I have watched porn its not the women that turns me on no matter how young a how hard there bodies are its the sex act themselves that dose it.

I like oral but my wife is not into giving so to see someone who just love to give it is very arousing.


----------



## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> when I have watched porn its not the women that turns me on no matter how young a how hard there bodies are its the sex act themselves that dose it.
> 
> I like oral but my wife is not into giving so to see someone who just love to give it is very arousing.


See, it makes your wife seem worse compared to the woman who loves to stick it in her mouth and deep throat. Any man would prefer the second.

I'm sorry your wife doesn't like oral. There are so many things you could try to get her to like it. Being romantic outside the bedroom, giving HER oral, suggesting the 69 position, things like chocolate syrup or the flavored lube. Tell her she doesn't have to deep throat as long as her mouth is there you're happy. When she does put her mouth there make a ton of noise like you really love it and that will encourage her to get more into it. That's what makes me like oral! Just be like "I know you don't like oral, but I will do it to you first, and if you just put your mouth there at all, that would mean so much to me because you are very sexy to me." and then do what I suggested above. Hope that will help.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

I guess that I've always thought of them as being pretty similar. Porn is produced in such a manner as to appeal to men, and romance novels are written in such a way to appeal to women. The material difference is that they're produced with the old "men are visual and women are emotional" truism (though we know that men and women all can fall damn near anywhere on that spectrum) and so the difference may appear more stark than they really are. Each sex gets an avatar through which they can fantasize themselves being part of that story: the stud who gets the sex he wants without the relationship work; whose mere prescence is orgasm-inducing. The lady who gets the sex she wants along with a great relationship, because she was courted and attended to.

Either way, I don't think that either one of them is a bad or shameful thing, in and of itself. Just don't choose them over your partner, and don't create a false sense of expectation, because neither one reflects reality.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

If it weren't for porn I am fairly certain I would have divorced sometime during the period my child was between 2 and 6, there has never been any of this mythical turning down a real women for porn -EVER. At least for me, I am certain there are some douche bags around


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ariel_angel77 said:


> See, it makes your wife seem worse compared to the woman who loves to stick it in her mouth and deep throat. Any man would prefer the second.
> 
> I'm sorry your wife doesn't like oral. There are so many things you could try to get her to like it. Being romantic outside the bedroom, giving HER oral, suggesting the 69 position, things like chocolate syrup or the flavored lube. Tell her she doesn't have to deep throat as long as her mouth is there you're happy. When she does put her mouth there make a ton of noise like you really love it and that will encourage her to get more into it. That's what makes me like oral! Just be like "I know you don't like oral, but I will do it to you first, and if you just put your mouth there at all, that would mean so much to me because you are very sexy to me." and then do what I suggested above. Hope that will help.


Thanks for trying to help!
But I have and always given freely to her sexually! Have tried all the suggestions and more!


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't believe women are typically "replaced" by porn all that often.
> 
> A man who knows he has a enthusiastic, attractive woman will always chose to be with her rather than masturbate.
> 
> ...


Your example doesn't really fit the topic. You didn't deny because of porn and she isn't choosing romance novels over you. 

As for whether or not is happens, it really does. A good friend's husband repeatedly turns her down and chooses porn over her. He'd rather have his fantasy porn than have sex with her. She gave him an ultimatum that he needs to choose: porn or her. My husband also chose porn over me and this was when I was pregnant with our son. That didn't go over well. I don't think it's talked about a lot because of the stereotype that men are supposed to "want sex all the time", so it's kept quiet when a man turns down his wife. It's only lately that more people are talking about it.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Many situatoins:
Some men and women can watch porn and / or read erotica and have either no, or a positive effect on their sex lives. (fine in my book)

Some men and women can watch porn, or read erotica and substitute it for intimacy with their partners (bad in my book)

Some men and women are simply not interested in sex and do not use porn / erotica and neglect their partners.

Some men and women do not enjoy porn or erotica but have good sex lives.


I have no idea of the relative percentages, but I'm convinced all of these do happen.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I do not think porn and romance novels effect the brain in the same way. 

That said anything that YOU believe is coming between your intimate relationship with you and your spouse is an issue. 

Firstly you have to ask yourself why am I not liking this? Some things are just ludicrous like someone who thinks the way their spouse butters toast comes between them. However others are reasonable and porn definitely can fall in this category, that's why many therapists and marriage counsellors will tell you it's one of the leading issues in marriages that are in trouble . 

If your spouse reads romance novels and can't get aroused with out them, to me that would be an issue. If your wife compares you to the men in novels and says things like "if you don't start earning over a million I am just not turned on by you" or "if you don't find a way to get an 8 inch penis and six pack I have no option but to think about divorce" 

I haven't met many men worried about romance novels and I have known some women who read them, but most of my friends don't. 

I have however met many women who have an issue with porn. I have spoken to men who had difficulty turning off the porn. I have read on this site men post things like "why can't my wife be more like a porn star" but am yet to read many threads where women ask for men from romance novels. 

So to me porn is a much bigger issue. If it wasn't there wouldn't be several posts a week by women whose husbands use porn to excess and don't pay attention to their wives.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I do not think porn and romance novels effect the brain in the same way.
> 
> That said anything that YOU believe is coming between your intimate relationship with you and your spouse is an issue.
> 
> ...


I've spent the last two solid years listening to women in my office compare their husbands to Christian Grey. It happens.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't believe women are typically "replaced" by porn all that often.
> 
> A man who knows he has a enthusiastic, attractive woman will always chose to be with her rather than masturbate..


This is not true. There are a good number of men who have an attractive, willing wife. But they end up preferring porn to sex with their wife. It happens. There are many women who post on TAM who are going through this.



Anon1111 said:


> On the other hand, I have actually found myself choosing to masturbate rather than attempt to initiate with my wife over the past few months.
> 
> This is a new one for me, but it has come after years of rejection, which has lessened my attraction for her (so that even on the rare times that I am successful, it is just not that awesome for me anymore).
> 
> If I was with someone else and knew on the typical Saturday night that I would always get a "yes" I would never do this.


This is your relationship. Not all relationship are like yours. 

There women who do not turn down sex, who want an active sex life.. but it's their husband who is refusing sex because he very much into porn.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

I would love to see more porn sites for women by women.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> when I have watched porn its not the women that turns me on no matter how young a how hard there bodies are its the sex act themselves that dose it.
> 
> I like oral but my wife is not into giving so to see someone who just love to give it is very arousing.


So if the woman was 350 lbs with lots of layer of fat... the sex would turn you on?????


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> So if the woman was 350 lbs with lots of layer of fat... the sex would turn you on?????


There are men who are sexually turned on by big women.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dogbert said:


> There are men who are sexually turned on by big women.


I asked the question of a specific poster, not some men who are turned on by big women.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> So if the woman was 350 lbs with lots of layer of fat... the sex would turn you on?????


That would be outside the range of attractive to most men I think. The poster you were asking's point was valid, just not to infinity


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

One of the biggest difference between porn and romance novels is the number of people who use them.

From all I've read about 99% of men user porn fairly often.

But only about 25% of women read romance novels. Even fewer read erotica. Even fewer read this type of material on a regular basis.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I've spent the last two solid years listening to women in my office compare their husbands to Christian Grey. It happens.


Most women have never read 50 Shades, your office seems to be a not the norm. I work in an building with about 1000 other women. Not one has even mentioned the book.

About 45 million copies have sold in the USA and Canada. Taking the population of both counties, that's about 46% of all women have purchased the book.

ETA: updated the numbers based on more recent data.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

So did anybody on this thread read the articles referenced by the OP?

Did you agree or disagree with them? Why or why not?


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Since relatively few women have ever read 50 Shades, you office seems to be a not the norm at all. Not all that many woman have actually read the book.
> 
> About 16 million copies have sold in the USA and Canada. Taking the population of both counties, that's about 16% of all women have purchased the book.


Not to differ with you, but my understanding is that Fifty Shades is one of the fastest selling book series of all time, with over 100 million copies sold as of a year ago, this very day. They've sold as many copies since the series began in 2011 as they have of The Hobbit , and it came out in 1937. 



> Originally self-published, "Fifty Shades of Grey" gained even wider reach after being picked up by Vintage, an imprint of Random House, in 2012.
> 
> In a release, Vintage notes that two copies of the trilogy sold every second during its peak sales period. It's the fastest selling book series in the history of Random House, the world's largest publisher.


&apos;Fifty Shades of Grey&apos; trilogy tops 100 million in worldwide sales - LA Times

One can only imagine what sales are now, 365 days later, and with the release of the film almost two weeks ago, which will further boost book sales.

Box Office: ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ Explodes With Record-Breaking $81.7 Million | Variety

I've seen, in various outlets, stories about sex shops inundated with phone calls and visits from people, inquiring about the books and if toys, whips, etc, are being sold there. Even "Is the 50 Shades store?" requests... Manufacturers and retailers stocked up for what they're saying will be the watershed event in their industry.

I don't know... It seems to me that plenty of women have heard of, and are consuming the product in record numbers, considering that it's the fastest seller that the biggest publisher in the world has ever had, and the film made $81M, which absolutely shattered the existing weekend record of $56M.

It seems like the ladies in his office are the norm, not the exception.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> So did anybody on this thread read the articles referenced by the OP?
> 
> Did you agree or disagree with them? Why or why not?


Romance novels can become addictive | KSL.com

The article is on a religious website (LDS). 

The author makes a lot of claims but offers nothing to support them… nothing but the useless “a lot of therapists”.

My favorite line out of the article is: “Women involved in pornography have a hard time keeping their family together.”

Who are the women involved in pornography.. porn stars? Yea I’ll bet they have a hard time keeping their family together. But what do porn stars have to do with romance novels?

.............. My take on this article is that it a nonsense piece written to draw in customers and speaking engagements. She's a "Life Coach" and a professional speaker.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> Romance novels can become addictive By Kimberly Giles
> Romance Novels: Dangerous, Harmless, or Just Fun?
> {A&E} Romance Novels: Another Form of Porn?****** Bardsley
> Romance Novel – To A Man – Reads Like Female Porn BY ALEX MARSHALL
> ...


:iagree:
Always a thing to blame instead of a person. We are excuse making, blame shifting creatures. Romance novels, pornography, movies, television, guns, *you name it and we'll blame it*. Wife left you after reading romance novels? Oh those darn novels. Husband stopped having sex after porn? Oh those darn pornos. It's ridiculous. Every person is accountable for their actions.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sh987 said:


> Not to differ with you, but my understanding is that Fifty Shades is one of the fastest selling book series of all time, with over 100 million copies sold as of a year ago, this very day. They've sold as many copies since the series began in 2011 as they have of The Hobbit , and it came out in 1937. .


Keep in mind that "The Hobbit" and other, older books like that did not have a huge pubic relations campaign and every news outlet in the world promoting it 24/7.


When compared to the amount of web traffic that porn sites get daily, the number of Fifty Shades sales is small.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

anonmd said:


> That would be outside the range of attractive to most men I think. The poster you were asking's point was valid, just not to infinity


I agree, the looks of a female porn star matter.


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I quite like what Russell Brand has to say. Who knew?

What Russell Brand Says About Porn Is Shocking—and Makes 100% Perfect Sense


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I was truly clueless about the depth of my W interest in Erotica until a few years ago but the fact that she had to read it in order to have sex with me became a major turn off. I do not and will not initiate with her any longer. 

Porn and Erotica and even romance novels rob couples of true intimacy. If that is what you need to get you going then it quite defeats the purpose of establishing and increasing intimacy.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Most women have never read 50 Shades, your office seems to be a not the norm. *I work in an building with about 1000 other women. Not one has even mentioned the book.*
> 
> About 45 million copies have sold in the USA and Canada. Taking the population of both counties, that's about 46% of all women have purchased the book.
> 
> ETA: updated the numbers based on more recent data.


Want to trade jobs?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Want to trade jobs?


Nope.. I could not tolerate that kind of nonsense going on around me where I work. Seriously.

I read one romance novel when I was about 18. It was on last one I ever read. I went back to reading War And Peace, Crime and Punishment and other books that were interesting.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that "The Hobbit" and other, older books like that did not have a huge pubic relations campaign and every news outlet in the world promoting it 24/7.


Yes, that's very true, I went with "The Hobbit" because of the sensational value of choosing a book published in the '30s. Still, that series has had 6 monumentally successful films which drove book sales, and FSoG has outdone that.

It's also true (unless Random House is lying, which I doubt) that it's the fastest selling book ever.



> When compared to the amount of web traffic that porn sites get daily, the number of Fifty Shades sales is small.


This isn't to argue your point at all... I just found this to be cool stuff. An interesting post on pornhub.com's blog that I came across under a search for "how many women watch porn":

50 Shades of Pornhub – Pornhub Insights

After the film came out, searches for BDSM on pornhub.com, particularly by women, skyrocketed, and it's not even close.

Increase in BDSM search by gender:

Submission
Women: +219%
Men: +46%

Dominate
Women: +196%
Men: +32%

BDSM
Women: +186%
Men: +30%

And so on...

As it turns out, the analytics folks at pornhub are really busy, and are (smartly) tracking tons of data about what their users are looking for. Women certainly comprise a large enough part of their market for them to be considered worth tracking:

What Women Want – Pornhub Insights

That's not to say that women watch as much porn as men as, intuitively, I don't think that's the case, and the article doesn't give raw numbers either. It's too bad, because it would be interesting to see.


----------



## jolyajones (Feb 25, 2015)

porn movies and novels both are effect over sixtual life. i dont like porn stars,????


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

RClawson said:


> I quite like what Russell Brand has to say. Who knew?
> 
> What Russell Brand Says About Porn Is Shockingâ€”and Makes 100% Perfect Sense


:iagree:I think what he's saying is very true. Thank you for sharing an excellent video. 
As russel said "Once that biological drive to procreate is connected with a culture of objectification it's a very hard equation to break"


RClawson said:


> I was truly clueless about the depth of my W interest in Erotica until a few years ago but the fact that she had to read it in order to have sex with me became a major turn off. I do not and will not initiate with her any longer.
> 
> Porn and Erotica and even romance novels rob couples of true intimacy. If that is what you need to get you going then it quite defeats the purpose of establishing and increasing intimacy.


And you are well within your rights, because it has become an issue in your relationship. I can understand why that would be hurtful. 

Did you tell your wife it upset you?


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

sh987 said:


> Yes, that's very true, I went with "The Hobbit" because of the sensational value of choosing a book published in the '30s. Still, that series has had 6 monumentally successful films which drove book sales, and FSoG has outdone that.
> 
> It's also true (unless Random House is lying, which I doubt) that it's the fastest selling book ever.
> 
> ...


Interesting point. I do think 50 shades is a piece of rubbish and most people should be concerned about it. All of the things we watch and read etc do contribute to the way view things and culture can have a big influence on society.

I am alarmed that there is a subculture of men and women who think 50 shades is a good book and movie, without looking at what message it's sending, particularity about healthy relationships. I am not against sex, women's sexuality, bondage, spanking etc. I love all of that stuff I just know that this (book) isn't healthy. 

Neither is porn. Which is more unhealthy? I think they both have different issues that can negatively effect a relationship and or a persons mindset. Neither are good for society.


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> This is where it's questionable. For a number of men, it can be easier to just masturbate than have sex with their wife/SO. Instead of going to his wife horned up, he can take care of himself in less time and not have to worry about pleasing her. It can be seen as easier and less time consuming, with the same end result in an orgasm. You'll see many women complain about their husbands using porn instead of having sex with them, but I've yet to see a man complain about their wife reading romance novels because that does tend to lead to sex. Most men are not being replaced with the romance novels like many women are with porn.


Seriously? I know you have been around the forums a bit, I've recognize your SN in a lot of threads. There are a LOT of posts about guys unsatisfied with their sexual frequency who know their wives masturbate (regardless of their masturbatory aid, but yes some have been romance novels). Disingenuous to suggest that "I've yet to see" when it's all around. 
I happen to be one that has had a problem with the wife using erotica and masturbating in the past when I was nowhere near getting the sexual frequency that I wanted.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> One of the biggest difference between porn and romance novels is the number of people who use them.
> 
> *From all I've read about 99% of men user porn fairly often.*
> 
> But only about 25% of women read romance novels. Even fewer read erotica. Even fewer read this type of material on a regular basis.


Care to share at least one source that states this?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> So if the woman was 350 lbs with lots of layer of fat... the sex would turn you on?????


everybody has their limits for what's appealing or attractive. in the example you wrote I don't think I could go as far as that in regards to finding a morbidly obese woman sexually attractive. 

but an average looking woman with a healthy attitude about pleasing her man would be golden at least for me.

for me there has to be a physical attraction .....but I'm not caught up on this perfect looking model type. Its not realistic I'm a decent looking guy at least I think so but I know I'm not gods gift to women. and I want someone who is at least as good looking as I am. But if my wife gained some weight 30lbs say and as long as it wasn't a health issue I would have no problem finding her sexy. sexy is an attitude. someone who when you complement them appreciate it . some one who finds me and all of my body sexy someone who wants to explore each others likes and become better lover for each other.

NOW THATS SEXY TO ME!


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> :iagree:
> Always a thing to blame instead of a person. We are excuse making, blame shifting creatures. Romance novels, pornography, movies, television, guns, *you name it and we'll blame it*. Wife left you after reading romance novels? Oh those darn novels. Husband stopped having sex after porn? Oh those darn pornos. It's ridiculous. Every person is accountable for their actions.


:iagree:

so whats the answer when you find yourself weather your a man whos wife has slowly shut down because of unrealistic expectation or a woman who husband dose the same .

most times you try to communicate and the partner say I'll try to do better but seems short lived and the cycle repeats itself.

I guess the answer is to be true to thyn own self. if you have communicated until you blue in the face and nothing changes then its time to pull the plug.

easier said than done especially when years of building a life together with house kids and the thought of am I putting too much importance on sex?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Romance novels can become addictive | KSL.com
> 
> The article is on a religious website (LDS).
> 
> ...


when I searched for this topic the vast majority were indeed religious sites. and I tried to avoid them because of the biased opinion they would have.

with that said , I did find some that were not. I think this is kind of under the radar so to speak. visual porn has such a bad rap and written porn erotica if you will get a free pass.

by definition these romance novels or anything that has sex scenes in them is classified as porn. 

should under age girls be able to buy porn? 

any girl can walk into a library or book store and buy a romance novel. would you let your under aged girl read and but this stuff? 

its porn for crying out loud. giving just as much of unreasonable expectations as visual porn.

again I don't have a problem with anybody who can keep it fantasy. and not let it warp their real world image of what a real marriage and sex should be in a loving relationship.

I think romance novels are just as problematic as porn is when abused.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I can't stand romance novels. So utterly predictable, such flat, insipid story lines and characters, so many histrionics over ridiculous things and hyperbolic hate-you-no-love-you dramas masquerading as passion

I want none of it, not for fantasy, not for reality.

That said, I find this discussion about how both porn and romance are "something for nothing" genres that appeal to respective differences between men and women interesting. One reason that I quite hate porn is the way it portrays women as objectified pieces of meat. As I've had quite enough of that IRL, thank you very much, I really don't care for experiencing it as fantasy, and am inclined to seek some sort of connection. Indeed, my revulsion over being treated as meat, as an interchangeable hole is very deeply ingrained.

But since for me the supposed connections in romance novels are just as lifeless as the ones in porn, I find it just as bad, although in a slightly different way, and I can see why many would see the "tension-building" as so much useless and boring filler between sex scenes.

It's too bad that there so little erotica that speaks to real people and relationships.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I can't stand romance novels. So utterly predictable, such flat, insipid story lines and characters, so many histrionics over ridiculous things and hyperbolic hate-you-no-love-you dramas masquerading as passion
> 
> I want none of it, not for fantasy, not for reality.
> 
> ...


Good insight aa.

I suppose as much as one could see it this way, I think a positive step...one of the fastest growing, biggest and most sought after genre's of porn is amateur where there are normal looking people, doing normal things, acting in normal ways. Granted, there usually isn't any overarching, contrived story...just realistic people having realistic sex...

Now if we could just get some romantic comedies where the guy is just a normal husband, working a normal job, with a normal wife who loves him dearly without falling for the out of work hipster artist with good hair...


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

There is a major difference between romance and erotica. Erotica can be a novel that has romance but relies heavily on the sexuality between the two people, how it is central to the relationship, how it is expressed and how it is received. Romance centers mostly on...relationship while sex is optional and many times minimal.


I've said this before and I'll say it again. 

Erotica for women is good for women.

Many women struggle with opening their sexual selves, erotica helps them explore their sexuality within the safety of their own mind. Erotica helps women identify how they get turned on, what scenarios push their buttons. It give women permission to be the aroused and excited sexual creatures they are instead of the repressed and rigid asexual creatures society wants us to be. And SIM is filled with stories about men married to repressed wives and the frustration those men face.

Erotica does NOT objectify men. While it may not portray a beer gutted, balding, ball scratching, belching, beast of a man it does portray a version of the kind of man that appeals to most women. He is dressed up in fantasy in order to fully sell the fantasy version. 

Women lament how porn objectives the big titted "good sport" because women cannot compete with that physical version and because we tend to wish for a relationship to be present prior to demonstrating our best oral skills. Men lament the billionaire cow boy. We're both missing the central attraction in each venue! Men want to be desired, easily, with little to no effort. Women want to be desired, easily, with little to no effort.

Relationships are hard, they take work. Sometimes we think we're doing it right but then we find out ... not so much.

A woman who turns away from her man because she prefers erotica is a woman with a problem that was present before she found erotica. A man who turns away from his woman because he prefers porn, is a man with an interpersonal relationship problem that was present before he found porn.

Considering women are relational oriented, language oriented, cooperative beings...it stand to reason there are much less women than men with erotica porn addictions. Conversely, men seem to have more difficulty with relationships in general. It's not their personal fault, it is a result of the restrictions and confines placed upon men on how to be manly. Therefor more men than women have porn addiction problems.

Erotica is good for women. We don't read it and think, I'm not having sex with my husband because he didn't fly me to another city for dinner in his own helicopter. But we will read it and think, I'm not having sex with my husband because he never makes me feel desired.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Alex Marshall's article struck a chord with me. 

On the recommendation of a female colleague, he picked up a copy of _Sweet Liar_ by Jude Devereux, which has a 4 1/2 star rating at Amazon with over 300 reviews.

He only made it about half way through the book and had the following observation:


"The feverish portrayal of courtship also revealed something about women, or at least about some women. In Sweet Liar, Samantha was a spoiled, brattish child. She treated Michael atrociously, often kicking, slapping and elbowing him. Michael not only put up with her, he showered her with gifts like designer clothes. (Samantha, though, didn’t figure out that Michael was spending thousands of dollars on her. She lived in this protective fog of ignorance, although she wasn’t meant to be a stupid woman.) Michael had his own faults. He would often manhandle her, preventing her from leaving rooms or shoving her along...

...There’s nothing necessarily wrong with reading romance novels. A fantasy is a fantasy. But it’s interesting that descriptions of courtship may occupy the same place in the female psyche as descriptions of love-making do to men."​
My wife's taste in romance novels runs more long the lines of Jane Austin and Georgette Hyer, but even with authors who have more of a sense of decorum, I get the same feeling Marshall described: That I've stepped into a room where I don't belong.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> There is a major difference between romance and erotica. Erotica can be a novel that has romance but relies heavily on the sexuality between the two people, how it is central to the relationship, how it is expressed and how it is received. Romance centers mostly on...relationship while sex is optional and many times minimal.
> 
> 
> I've said this before and I'll say it again.
> ...


men also want to feel desired. and will turn to porn because they are rejected time and time again.

which came first the chicken or the egg.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> any girl can walk into a library or book store and buy a romance novel. would you let your under aged girl read and but this stuff?
> 
> its porn for crying out loud. giving just as much of unreasonable expectations as visual porn.


I know that when I was in junior high, the library shelves groaned under the weight of romance novels, and the girls absolutely tore through those books.

And no, I wouldn't want my daughter, who's heading to junior high next year, reading it. At least, not before she's old enough to understand that the books aren't meant to portray realistic relationships between people. It's adult entertainment, full-stop.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> Alex Marshall's article struck a chord with me.
> 
> On the recommendation of a female colleague, he picked up a copy of _Sweet Liar_ by Jude Devereux, which has a 4 1/2 star rating at Amazon with over 300 reviews.
> 
> ...


Jude Devereux writes Romantica. Romance with a little bit of sex, slightly graphic but heavily romance.

I personally find romance and romantica to be of the dumbest of dumb genres. No, the dumbest of the dumb is all the vampire and werewolf/werecat/werebird...non human category generally doesn't have the most discerning reader population. They salivate at anything with paws, claws, or wings. The freakiest is the tentacle genre. Um ...gross!


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> men also want to feel desired. and will turn to porn because they are rejected time and time again.
> 
> which came first the chicken or the egg.


I completely agree. Men also want and deserve to feel desired.

The unanswerable question, chicken/egg. The answer doesn't matter. We address whoever comes here (chicken or egg) on what they can do to get what they want.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> I completely agree. Men also want and deserve to feel desired.
> 
> The unanswerable question, chicken/egg. The answer doesn't matter. We address whoever comes here (chicken or egg) on what they can do to get what they want.


so the bottom line is.

if you get stuck in this struggle and you tried to communicate and or change the dynamics without success after a certain amount of time.

just pull the plug!

sometimes that's all you have left.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
it is the visual nature, or the hard-core content of porn that separates it from romance and erotica?

If I made a movie of a romance story, with good acting, but included hard-core sex (where it fit in the plot), would that fundamentally change things? Would so many women watch 50-shades if the BDSM scenes were hard core? If it turned out that 50-shades had been filmed as explicit, and a version with the cut scenes were available on DVD, would you watch?

it is the lack of plot that bothers some people about porn, or the inclusion of hard core sex?


BTW- I don't object to erotica, porn or romance - just curious how people think about these things.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> it is the visual nature, or the hard-core content of porn that separates it from romance and erotica?



Richard,

"Pornography" is a "Thing" and as such can be defined objectively.

"Erotic" is a state of mind as as such can only be defined subjectively.

Because of this difference, a work may be highly erotic and not technically pornographic. Conversely a work may be pornographic and not even mildly erotic. 

It does not matter if we are talking about words or pictures. The linguistic definition of pornography is satisfied at the point where a work becomes sexually explicit.

Things get a little muddy, especially on threads like this because literature has its own system of classification and it does not strictly follow legal and linguistic definitions. Literary genres are defined more along the lines of what you've suggested above. 

Simple example: Tom Clancy's _The Sum of All Fears_ was nearly 900 pages in hardback. Three of those pages explicitly depict an evening of makeup sex between two of the main characters. The book is rightfully classified as a Techno-Thriller and the sex is very incidental to the overall story. 

_Fifty Shades Of Grey_ is classified as Erotic Romance. Sex is an important part of the story, but not the whole story.

Even paperbacks with titles like, _Swedish Sex Trip_ and _Students At Play_ are usually classified as Erotica rather than pornography, even though they are very clearly pornographic. 

When it comes to romance novels, some cross the line into pornography and some don't.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I personally find romance and romantica to be of the dumbest of dumb genres.


I agree. Even Shakespeare couldn't pull off a good romance. Romeo and Juliet? Stupid, stupid children full of histrionics, useless swooning and idiocy.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> If I made a movie of a romance story, with good acting, but included hard-core sex (where it fit in the plot), would that fundamentally change things?


For me, yes. My problem isn't at all with the written or visual depiction of sex, it is with the power imbalancez and objectification.

In typical porn, women are just mannequins, sex dolls that exist purely for the pleasure of men, and there is no reciprocity or concern for her sexuality at all. She is just there to be whatever he happens to want, and is always "willing" to be that.

In typical romances, she is just a stereotypical bosom-heaving narcissistic beauty. If you're lucky, she's described patronizingly as "spunky". And he, of course, is just a prop who will buy her things and fawn over her. Part a-hole, to give her some excuse to get cross with him and spend ages agonizing about it.

If there were actual balance and actual human connection, however, it's quite different. And so some x-rated scenes in movies, for example, can be quite good, as can some of the erotica that Anon Pink talks about. Context is everything.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> .
> Erotica for women is good for women.
> 
> Many women struggle with opening their sexual selves, erotica helps them explore their sexuality within the safety of their own mind. Erotica helps women identify how they get turned on, what scenarios push their buttons. It give women permission to be the aroused and excited sexual creatures they are instead of the repressed and rigid asexual creatures society wants us to be. And SIM is filled with stories about men married to repressed wives and the frustration those men face.


I agree with this...to a point. I absolutely do think women owe it to themselves to explore and be in tune with their own sexuality. And where erotica actually helps them to do this, then I can see it as a good thing.

But, my caveat is that so much of the time, the depictions of women stuff that sexuality into a little box: stripper poles, high heels, completely shaved (except for the hair on the head, of course). That is, women's sexuality gets defined by men's view of what women should be like, and is done to appease male tastes.

I would like to see more that is actually defined by women. Not just created by women and repeating the same damn tropes and stereotypes, but that actually allows that women's sexuality comes from within, and isn't just about appealing to men.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I agree with this...to a point. I absolutely do think women owe it to themselves to explore and be in tune with their own sexuality. And where erotica actually helps them to do this, then I can see it as a good thing.
> 
> But, my caveat is that so much of the time, the depictions of women stuff that sexuality into a little box: stripper poles, high heels, completely shaved (except for the hair on the head, of course). That is, women's sexuality gets defined by men's view of what women should be like, and is done to appease male tastes.
> 
> I would like to see more that is actually defined by women. Not just created by women and repeating the same damn tropes and stereotypes, but that actually allows that women's sexuality comes from within, and isn't just about appealing to men.


And doesn't this really complicate things...one of the things seen over and over here is that part of many womens sexuality, and feeling sexual is the woman feeling desired by a man...which leads to acting like, looking like, being what men find attractive...

Myself, I have no desire to be a billionaire pirate vampire, or out of work artist. I'm happy being who I am, yet the pressure to be something different is certainly there, even from my wife, albeit it very subtle and unconscious on her part...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

its crazy ,

women don't want to be objectified. only after their married it seems.

before marriage they do everything humanly possible to catch a mans eye well at least a man they want.

makeup, tight sexy jeans, yoga pants staying fit, being sexual in a new relationship, 

giving oral having frequent sex then after marriage I,m just sick of being a sex object! 

romance novels helps them come out of their sexual shell. cool I'm all down with that. but if its unrealistic sexual ideas .....like the amount of tension and romance these books give then its a problem. 


just as big if you expect your wife to deep throat until tears stream down her face!


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I want none of it, not for fantasy, not for reality.
> 
> That said, I find this discussion about how both porn and romance are "something for nothing" genres that appeal to respective differences between men and women interesting. *One reason that I quite hate porn is the way it portrays women as objectified pieces of meat.* As I've had quite enough of that IRL, thank you very much, I really don't care for experiencing it as fantasy, and am inclined to seek some sort of connection. Indeed, my revulsion over being treated as meat, as an interchangeable hole is very deeply ingrained.


I think that's the chief difference between the two mediums. Both can impact the perceptions of the viewer/reader, leading to damage in relationships. Porn can take the lives of its participants, though, and grind it into hamburger. Written erotica, however, doesn't require humans as props, and doesn't suffer from this particular issue.



> But since for me the supposed connections in romance novels are just as lifeless as the ones in porn, I find it just as bad, although in a slightly different way, and I can see why many would see the "tension-building" as so much useless and boring filler between sex scenes.
> 
> It's too bad that there so little erotica that speaks to real people and relationships.


Those things aren't in romance novels just like real life isn't depicted in porn. In each case, the characters are distilled down to the essential components required by the medium. There is probably a market there, who would like to see realistic examples of a relationship, without the cliches of each genre, and with the crowning moment being lovemaking between a couple...

But that market would be pretty small, I bet. I just don't think it hits those easy-to-reach receptors in men and women.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Not clear to me what the difference is between a porn actress's performance and any other actress's performance.

All actors/acctresses are props to the story.

I think the real issue is cultural: sex is still seen as dirty. 

We're cool with all manner of violence in films (where is it mostly men gettin shot up, of course), but not OK with showing sex in a similar gratuitous way.

Again, media just give people what they want.

Tons of depictions of sexuality in antiquity, which was seen as normal. Different culture though.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Personally, I love ending objectified by the right man. Being objectified, sexually, can be a great turn on.

Erotica demonstrates women with all different body types, some shaved some full bush, some trimmed. Some have large boobs, some have small and I once read a very sweet story about a woman with one boob recovering from a mastectomy.

There is no story in porn. Boy sees girl, girls takes off her clothing, boy fVcks girl. Yeah great plot line!


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Not clear to me what the difference is between a porn actress's performance and any other actress's performance.
> 
> All actors/acctresses are props to the story.


It's not the performance that's relevant, IMHO, but the depiction. Good acting may be better/more enjoyable than bad, but if the story is all about how women are hunks of meat designed solely for men's pleasure, then I really don't give a damn about whether the acting is good or bad. I will still hate it.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> There is no story in porn. Boy sees girl, girls takes off her clothing, boy fVcks girl. Yeah great plot line!


Disagree. You are not looking at plot broadly enough. Is there no plot in a dance (e.g., tango)? Sex is the same.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Personally, I love ending objectified by the right man. Being objectified, sexually, can be a great turn on.
> 
> Erotica demonstrates women with all different body types, some shaved some full bush, some trimmed. Some have large boobs, some have small and I once read a very sweet story about a woman with one boob recovering from a mastectomy.
> 
> There is no story in porn. Boy sees girl, girls takes off her clothing, boy fVcks girl. Yeah great plot line!


wait a minute.

it goes like this . ding dong. hello: pizza man here with your extra sausage!!!!.....well come on in , and bang me for your tip.

well I don't know do you have a girl friend who can join in to make it worth my while?

sure 

chek a cheka wow wow !!!!!!! party on!

now that's a plot!


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

It's a stock story. All genre's have stock stories with stock characters. Comedies, mysteries, romance, etc.

If you don't like the stock story lines of a particular genre, then I see that as a matter of taste.

Trying to elevate matters of taste into a moral judgment is weird to me, whether you dress it up with Victorianism, Puritianism, feminism, etc.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

That almost sounds as bad as the plots on daytime soap.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> its crazy ,
> 
> women don't want to be objectified. only after their married it seems.
> 
> ...


This may describe some women, but most certainly not all. Indeed, those women who actively objectify themselves to capture a man do so precisely because it works, because so many men make it quite clear they are only interested in woman-sex-objects. And so they often end up with men who can only care about woman-sex-objects, and then get downright sick of never getting to be themselves.

Others of us are going quietly about our business completely and utterly ignored/overlooked by men, IME. And ironically, it's often these women who are the most in tune with and happy to express their sexuality. But because it isn't porn star style, flashy, male-centric, it's considered undesirable.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

always_alone said:


> For me, yes. My problem isn't at all with the written or visual depiction of sex, it is with the power imbalancez and objectification.
> 
> In typical porn, women are just mannequins, sex dolls that exist purely for the pleasure of men, and there is no reciprocity or concern for her sexuality at all.


How do you know? How do you know they aren't enjoying it? Of the ones I've seen, looks like both the man and the woman are enjoying it quite immensely.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

vellocet said:


> How do you know? How do you know they aren't enjoying it? Of the ones I've seen, looks like both the man and the woman are enjoying it quite immensely.


Yes, I've heard that before, and all I can say is that to me it simply shows a complete lack of awareness of what women's pleasure looks like.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

What a lot of people fail to grasp, especially us guys, is that in both porn and romance novels, *it is not the prop itself (attractive individual) which is pulling us in but what that prop is symbolizing and that is, desire. Passionate desire.* Evolutionary preferences aside, it can be created without meeting the unrealistic caricature attributes of the props, but it requires hard work on both sides.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Yes, I've heard that before, and all I can say is that to me it simply shows a complete lack of awareness of what women's pleasure looks like.


Ok, what should it look like?


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok, what should it look like?


mom jeans

a brisk early morning walk (with arm weights)

"Summer Breeze" by Seals & Croft playing softly on the hi fi

Male perms

Leave your socks on


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I sometimes wonder what porn people are watching. There really is a lot of variety. 

There are porn movies - with actual (mediocre) plots and characters - though the plots lead to extremely frequent sex. 

There are clips, or compilations of clips that are just a series of sex scenes with no attempt at a plot, though there may be a "scenario"

There is amateur stuff, some of which isn't actually amateur, and some which is just people fliming themselves having what is (for them) normal sex.

There are specialty (eg fetish) movies which show female domination, bdms, wrestling etc - whatever floats someone's boat.

Most porn actors are just pretending to enjoy - but then most romance movie actors aren't really in love either - its ACTING.

There is a small subset of porn where women are REALLY abused - and that is criminal and should be outlawed.

Interviews with porn actresses (like the undergrad from Duke U. who was outed as a port star) generally fall in the range of: I get paid a ton of money and its better than flipping burgers. to "I really enjoy the whole lifestyle, its great AND I get paid a ton of money". 

There are unsuccessful porn actors who are just as poor and miserable as unsuccessful actors of other types. There are a few (like Linda Lovelace) who complained of serious abuse - and that should be investigated by law enforcement. 


Porn is completely unrealistic, but so are romance stories that suggests that a shy, average appearance high school girl is actually beautiful and will be fought over by a loving caring , competent man and a hot sexy rebel (or vampire, or whatever) who despite behaving with murderous violence to others, will treat her perfectly. 

They are just fantasies. Watch, read, enjoy. Just don't start thinking that your real world partner is inadequate because they cannot live up to this fantasy.


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm not sure how accurate the stats are, but I found them pretty interesting. 

Particularly:

*According to National Coalition for the Protection of Children & Families, 2010, 47% of families in the United States reported that pornography is a problem in their home.* 

Internet Pornography by the Numbers; a Significant Threat to Society | Webroot

Now this isn't to say that erotica isn't just as concerning. I just can't find much on it. Sorry.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

staarz21 said:


> I'm not sure how accurate the stats are, but I found them pretty interesting.
> 
> Particularly:
> 
> ...


That's really interesting. 

I'm particularly worried about how it will effect the new generation of men. Learning about sex through porn will be an issue for many. 

I plan on educating my son as much as I can. I think sex is healthy and natural but the viewing of porn can lead to a whole host of issues.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> How do you know? How do you know they aren't enjoying it? Of the ones I've seen, looks like both the man and the woman are enjoying it quite immensely.


:slap:

Oh dear gawd. That's the problem with porn right there.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening littledeer
why do you say that? Maybe the "porn" you are thinking of is very different form the porn the previous poster was imagining - there is quite a variety.

We also need to be clear on "enjoying" - maybe it should be "pretending to enjoy". I expect few porn actors actually enjoy their work, but that's true for most people. Few actors in romances are actually in love - they just pretend to be. 

I think it is too much to ask to expect actors in any movie to really be feeling the emotions that they are acting out. 




*LittleDeer* said:


> :slap:
> 
> Oh dear gawd. That's the problem with porn right there.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

staarz21 said:


> Now this isn't to say that erotica isn't just as concerning. I just can't find much on it.


"Internet pornography" includes text. 

I understand why explicit images get the most reaction out of parents, but it is just as concerning when an inquisitive daughter is browsing sites like literotica.


----------



## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

ocotillo said:


> "Internet pornography" includes text.
> 
> I understand why explicit images get the most reaction out of parents, but it is just as concerning when an inquisitive daughter is browsing sites like literotica.


Ah I didn't realize this. Thanks.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening littledeer
> why do you say that? Maybe the "porn" you are thinking of is very different form the porn the previous poster was imagining - there is quite a variety.
> 
> We also need to be clear on "enjoying" - maybe it should be "pretending to enjoy". I expect few porn actors actually enjoy their work, but that's true for most people. Few actors in romances are actually in love - they just pretend to be.
> ...


Agreed the problem with porn is that many men watch it and think that women should find it pleasurable, because women is porn do. (Even though as you said it's unlikely that any of them do). 

Most women need clitoral stimulation and porn angles are all about showing what's going on. I have discussed this many times with men (even on this board) who tell me what do I know- women don't need clitoral stimulation. And while I'm aware that at times I don't need it (I like doing a variety of things too) and neither do others, that every woman I know does need it in order to orgasm and for quite a while in order to get there. 

I have also done a lot of research into porn and porn stars as part of my degree and research into the sex industry. I have read so much from the women that say it's actually very painful, and many of them are very damaged internally from the sex. That they are often ripped and torn apart and it's certainly not pleasurable at all. It's really disturbing. The men in porn don't tend to have internal damage etc, though many are on drugs and stimulants to maintain erections and I'm sure that is also damaging.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening littledear
If anyone is actually being hurt in porn, that should be regulated. Accidents do happen in acting - Jackie Chan has broken multiple bones during shoots - but it it is at all regular, then the industry needs regulation. I have no idea how common that is.

I think one big problem is that any modestly-attractive young woman *can* get paid to do porn, but most cannot be paid as regular actresses. This leads to people doing porn as a desperation action for money when it is absolutely not right for them physically or mentally.

I remember being a poor college student, out of money, desperately short on time. If someone had offered me $2000/night to make gay pornos (and I'm straight), I might well have done it. I really don't know the right way to regulate this - people have a right to do what they want with their own bodies, but what if there is large financial pressure???


In cases where the actors are not being abused (which I still think is the majority), I agree that there is a big problem with people watching porn and thinking it represents reality. 

One positive thing is that several sources suggest that "amateur" porn is rapidly growing in popularity relative to professional stuff. Much amateur stuff does provide a much more realistic (if still somewhat idealized) image of sex.


----------



## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I have also done a lot of research into porn and porn stars as part of my degree and research into the sex industry. I have read so much from the women that say it's actually very painful, and many of them are very damaged internally from the sex. That they are often ripped and torn apart and it's certainly not pleasurable at all. It's really disturbing. The men in porn don't tend to have internal damage etc, though many are on drugs and stimulants to maintain erections and I'm sure that is also damaging.


I remember seeing a documentary years ago, and one woman was saying that it often hurt, as you said, or at best it just felt like nothing, because it was just a performance from which she was personally detached, even though she looked like she was loving, to judge from the finished product. It's her job to make it look that, after all.

A male performer said (and he would have pre-dated Viagra, Cialis, etc) that after awhile, he had to imagine he was with his wife or would have tremendous difficulty even maintaining an erection.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening littledear
> If anyone is actually being hurt in porn, that should be regulated. Accidents do happen in acting - Jackie Chan has broken multiple bones during shoots - but it it is at all regular, then the industry needs regulation. I have no idea how common that is.
> 
> I think one big problem is that any modestly-attractive young woman *can* get paid to do porn, but most cannot be paid as regular actresses. This leads to people doing porn as a desperation action for money when it is absolutely not right for them physically or mentally.
> ...


I really wanted to respond, but I am not feeling well so can't seem to summon the energy right now, and I'm about to go and read stories with my son. 

I just wanted to say that although I don't agree with everything you are saying, I'd like to thank you for debating the issue with me like a gentleman. I really appreciate that.  And I do like reading other people's points of view, even if we will never agree. Particularly when they are respectful. 

Thanks again.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

It seems some posters only think men look at porn. That they are the only ones affected by it. Truth is women are buying it, watching and enjoying it also. So lets stop pretending this is only a issue for men.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Maybe you should point that out to the pages of anti porn rhetoric that you must have missed.


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

The assumption from the beginning was men's use of visual porn and women's use of erotica and if they are similar, but I do think it's useful and within the topic of this thread to ask the gender opposite question.

My wife is an example I have talked about before here, and the issues she and I have had with her behavior regarding her lack of filter when it comes to her opinions of men in various stages of undress...who aren't me. It has not had a direct impact on our sex life as far as frequency goes...still around 10 times a week, but it has had a direct impact on my own self image which has diminished my enjoyment. A recent, totally innocent statement on her part, one probably meant to build me up, but because of the ongoing nature of this issue, actually cut pretty hard the other way to the point where I am not sure how long I am going to be interested in doing it so much any more.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

intheory said:


> I assume you are directing this at me?
> 
> "Porn" is part of the thread topic. So there will be "yeas" and "nays" regarding it.
> 
> ...


Thats your opinion what my post was about. I notice you had nothing to say when Littledeer goes on her rant on the evil of men and porn. Selective reading i guess.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Lila said:


> I rarely get free time these days to read but when I do, my go to genre is Romance or Romantica. I call it mental fluff for destressing. It's my Texas Margarita after a long week at work. For a few hours, I can delve into a fantasy world where my brain actively creates a mental movie based on someone else's script but with me as the lead character. The key _for me_ is knowing that the male lead in the story is acting on an emotional level. In other words, he's having sex with the female lead to bond (or for intimacy sake); he's not using her as a sex doll to meet a need. For example, I've read plenty of books with masochistics undertones (BDSM spanking, whipping). I do not practice nor have any desire to practice BDSM in my own life but I still get turned on reading these stories. Why? Because the male character has an emotional connection to the female character. He genuinely cares about her and wants her to experience as much pleasure as possible.
> 
> Professional grade pornographic movies just do not have the same effect. It's a passive form of media where everything is spoon fed to the viewer. Most (notice I did not say all) are made to target the male population. The acting is usually really bad and there is little to no emotional connection between the actors. It's strictly about the woman's physical looks, the guy's d!ck, and the specific sex acts performed. There's no genuine passion or desire; rarely ever any kissing of any kind, or touching aside from rubbing the genitals/boobs or spanking.
> 
> Look, people can become addicted to just about anything if they have the propensity for it but if I had to pick my poison, I'd choose addiction to Romance/Erotica over pornographic movies. Are both fantasy fulfillment? Yes, but one is 100% someone else's idea being introduced into my mind, while the other is only about 50% someone else's idea and the other 50% is whatever I choose to make it at that point in time.


the way you describe that your the lead and the man emotionally bonds and then have the connect is cool. you don't have to put any effort into what the man might like you get to enjoy his undying attraction to you as you get your fantasy needs met.

men on the other hand want the complete opposite they want as a fantasy a women who is just attracted to his masculinity so attracted she will do anything to please him.

very similar just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

neither is more right than the other. Fantasy are cool I like to fantasize about lots of things such as winning the lottery and what i would do with the money but not so much as i would quit my jobs and just rely on it.

when a man or women get to involved in their fantasy and lose site of reality is when the relationship goes south and in my opinion women are just as guilty as men.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

intheory said:


> Visual images and the written word aren't the same. Why are we pretending they are?


I don't think anyone has argued that they are identical equivalents.  

The premise on this thread is that both mediums are a form of escapism and that overexposure to either could cause a person to become dissatisfied with the mundanity of both the real world and their partner. (Who is neither a moaning porn star nor a conquering hero.)

When it comes to which medium is more influential, the argument from the linguistics community would be that you are not only processing thoughts conveyed via print with the speech centers of your brain, you are simultaneously visualizing the scenario as well and that in this respect, print is actually more engaging cognitively. (Note Lila's comment above, for example.)

The single most common criticism leveled at visual forms of pornography (i.e. It lacks a believable story; It lacks anything resembling a plot; Dialogue is sparse or nonexistent; Characters lack any depth at all; It doesn't weave the sexual relationship around greater themes; It doesn't engage you emotionally, etc.) only strengthens the argument that print not only uses more of your brain, it touches more parts of your psyche as well.

Little Deer has pointed out that cinematic pornography can and does harm living, breathing human beings, especially women. I think her argument stands on its own two legs and wouldn't for a minute dispute it. That strikes me as more of a social issue than a purely marital issue though. Again, the question on this thread is whether other forms of sexually oriented entertainment could harm a marriage/relationship in much the same way as visual forms of pornography can.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening littledeer
I'm sorry you are not feeling well. I look forward to your post later. 

I think it is an important and clearly divisive issue. I don't know if the disagreements stem from fundamentally different views of the world, or whether "porn" means very different things to different people. 

In some ways it parallels discussions on legalization of narcotics.



*LittleDeer* said:


> I really wanted to respond, but I am not feeling well so can't seem to summon the energy right now, and I'm about to go and read stories with my son.
> 
> I just wanted to say that although I don't agree with everything you are saying, I'd like to thank you for debating the issue with me like a gentleman. I really appreciate that.  And I do like reading other people's points of view, even if we will never agree. Particularly when they are respectful.
> 
> Thanks again.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> The single most common criticism leveled at visual forms of pornography (i.e. It lacks a believable story; It lacks anything resembling a plot; Dialogue is sparse or nonexistent; Characters lack any depth at all; It doesn't weave the sexual relationship around greater themes; It doesn't engage you emotionally, etc.) only strengthens the argument that print not only uses more of your brain, it touches more parts of your psyche as well.


You forgot one piece: objectification. It's dehumanizing to depict women in a way that erases who they are and what they are feeling, so much so that many consumers of porn can't even tell that cervix-pounding or similar things are actually quite painful and damaging.

What makes this aspect especially troubling is that so many turn to porn for ideas, for education. And what they learn is that women should enjoy things that don't feel good to them, that their real feelings don't matter, that they should just suck it up and take whatever it is.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Thats your opinion what my post was about. I notice you had nothing to say when Littledeer goes on her rant on the evil of men and porn. Selective reading i guess.


Please feel free to quote me and show me where I have said that men are evil? 

I actually think it's human nature to be attracted to porn and sex. I have watched porn myself. I also happen to have noticed along the way that most porn is extremely degrading to women (and sometimes men too). I read more about it, researched it for university, found out more about sex trafficking and rape and assaults and on and on in the industry and was completely sickened by it. 

I believe contrary to what you may think that most men are good, and when they recognise injustice they will ac accordingly. There are some who won't and who want to do whatever feels good for them. Luckily in my real life I'm not surrounded by men like that. I have wonderful males in my life that are so respectful of women. My dad being one. 

Just because one person hates an industry for valid reasons, it doesn't mean they hate consumers of that industry. Another example is that I try to buy ethical chocolate, that hasn't used child slaves to harvest cocoa bean and that don't use palm oil. I don't hate people who eat other chocolate but I do like to talk to them about what is happening and how we can make better choices. I spend a lot of my time petitioning for human rights. And in this case a lot of the children exploited and killed and maimed are boy children. That doesn't mean I don't care about the girl children used it's just there are more boy children. 

I guess I also like to surround myself with ethical people who care about others, and not just their own immediate gratification. I don't understand why having a certain view point and ethics makes me a man hater. :scratchhead:


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

always_alone said:


> You forgot one piece: objectification. It's dehumanizing to depict women in a way that erases who they are and what they are feeling, so much so that many consumers of porn can't even tell that cervix-pounding or similar things are actually quite painful and damaging.
> 
> What makes this aspect especially troubling is that so many turn to porn for ideas, for education. And what they learn is that women should enjoy things that don't feel good to them, that their real feelings don't matter, that they should just suck it up and take whatever it is.


:iagree:


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

always_alone said:


> You forgot one piece: objectification. It's dehumanizing to depict women in a way that erases who they are....


Absolutely. 

If our comparison is with the whole of erotic fiction though, (And not just the rich young heiress who took London by storm sort of stuff my wife likes) you can find some pretty disturbing ideas in print too. Writers aren't trammeled by the constraints of flesh and blood.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Thank you for your earlier response


richardsharpe said:


> Good evening littledear
> If anyone is actually being hurt in porn, that should be regulated. Accidents do happen in acting - Jackie Chan has broken multiple bones during shoots - but it it is at all regular, then the industry needs regulation. I have no idea how common that is.


I agree regulation has to happen and apparently it's just not occurring in the porn industry unfortunately. It is very conman, I have posted many times links with interviews with porn stars, producers, directors and doctors that talk about how bad the industry is, that drugs are pushed onto people and that the treatment of women is particularly revolting, with rapes and sexual assault rife. I read things written by Drs employed to be on set that say they regularly sew the women up, so it's pretty alarming. Also I posted a link from The US government about the prevalence of trafficked women being used in the sex industry including strip clubs and porn. Also the amount of underage girls being used. I just personally can't in good conscience use something that participates in such terrible human rights abuse. 



> I think one big problem is that any modestly-attractive young woman *can* get paid to do porn, but most cannot be paid as regular actresses. This leads to people doing porn as a desperation action for money when it is absolutely not right for them physically or mentally.
> 
> I remember being a poor college student, out of money, desperately short on time. If someone had offered me $2000/night to make gay pornos (and I'm straight), I might well have done it. I really don't know the right way to regulate this - people have a right to do what they want with their own bodies, but what if there is large financial pressure???


I completely agree. I have posted links (in other porn threads) to studies that show most of the participants in porn do so because of low socioeconomic status and out of desperation. Usually they have less education- come from poor backgrounds and a great percentage even have literacy problems. So I do see the industry as preying on people who are extremely vulnerable. 


> In cases where the actors are not being abused (which I still think is the majority), I agree that there is a big problem with people watching porn and thinking it represents reality.
> 
> One positive thing is that several sources suggest that "amateur" porn is rapidly growing in popularity relative to professional stuff. Much amateur stuff does provide a much more realistic (if still somewhat idealized) image of sex.


I am not sure if it's positive or not, only because I believe a lot of amateur stuff (whilst showing a variety of body shapes which is positive) mirrors what is seen in mainstream porn a lot of the time. And I worry about exploitation and pressure to perform from intimate partners amongst other things, but it's certainly worth the discussion.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

I do not believe there is a difference. I think their both harmful. Men porn usually does have printed pictures, But THIS smut (50 shades, etc.) Women Are Clamoring To Buy up, the Pictures Are IN THE mind. The mind can go a lot farther than what's in the picture On paper.

As far as objectification, I believe it happens with printed word also. The women imagine them selves being the woman in the scenarios they are reading about......that they are so consumed with this smut literature and bdsm Christian Grey crap leads me to believe a lot of women WANT to be treated that way or they would not be eating it up and getting all hot and bothered by it.

Whether male or female if you masturbate or have sex with your spouse. If you fantasize about sex with the man/woman on screen or photo or picture in your mind, it is adultry of the heart.

If the porn/smut maturation is due to resentment or lack if sex from your partner, the marriage needs to be addressed.

As for "Women reading 50 shades is good for the marriage because it gets the woman more horny" Bull****! It's a person in the book who is making them horny...Not their spouse. I have heard women talk about a picture of one of those vampire/werewolf boys from that show. They were talking about THIS IS HOW THEY PICTURE CHRISTIAN GREY. With printed smut books the pictures are in the mind of the reader.

Talking a about getting women more aroused with the reading being a good thing for husbands.....until the husband is not there and she starts choosing her toys and Christian Grey fantasy or another man to help quench that fire. Or using her husband as a live dido while she fantasize about being with the man they have pictured to be the one in the book.

my boss spoke about him benefiting from his wife reading the book. I wanted to tell him "It does not bother you she is screwing the person in the book that is turning her on and you are just a dildo." She was turned on and more sexual and he liked it until she started screwing the DPS Trooper husband of a couple they were good friends with. The other BS is our clerk so they have to see each other daily....talk about trigger. 

The other spouse who was in to the Christian Grey thing and then screwing around on her husband was my sister. I had a lot of rage against her and posom for that. So yes I believe books are just as bad.

Both are like methamphetamines....you might play with it a few times and be ok but it's addictive and destroys lives and families. 

It changes you.....


----------



## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

intheory said:


> That's real disrespectful. I don't suppose you could tell her that, and that it bothers you, and could she please knock it off.


Oh, we have talked about it, and she has gotten a lot better, but still has moments...most recent being Valentine's Day. It had been a great, romantic, lovey dovey evening. We're laying in bed naked snuggling, after making love for the second time, and she is on Facebook. One of her friends had posted a pic of some half naked actor, totally ripped, photoshopped to hell making the heart sign with his hands, she whispered "whoa" under her breath, and I have never seen her like a post so fast in my life. I kind of lost my sh1t at that.

The thing is, it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal for me if I felt like I was able to draw out the same unfiltered reactions from her, to be able to step out of the shower and have her say 'whoa' about me. I do see looks on her face when she's looking at me that seem like she is mentally undressing me or what not, but when I ask her what she was thinking, she just looks away and says "nothing" As much as she tries, it is still a struggle for her.

I think I need to ask her about when she was much younger...was she the type to talk about the boys all the other girls were talking about, but keeping her real crush hidden away deep inside...


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> Oh, we have talked about it, and she has gotten a lot better, but still has moments...most recent being Valentine's Day. It had been a great, romantic, lovey dovey evening. We're laying in bed naked snuggling, after making love for the second time, and she is on Facebook. One of her friends had posted a pic of some half naked actor, totally ripped, photoshopped to hell making the heart sign with his hands, she whispered "whoa" under her breath, and I have never seen her like a post so fast in my life. I kind of lost my sh1t at that.
> 
> The thing is, it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal for me if I felt like I was able to draw out the same unfiltered reactions from her, to be able to step out of the shower and have her say 'whoa' about me. I do see looks on her face when she's looking at me that seem like she is mentally undressing me or what not, but when I ask her what she was thinking, she just looks away and says "nothing" As much as she tries, it is still a struggle for her.
> 
> I think I need to ask her about when she was much younger...was she the type to talk about the boys all the other girls were talking about, but keeping her real crush hidden away deep inside...


hmm,

I think its unrealistic to think your partner would not find some other people more attractive than you.

everybody has thoughts of such things. 

there are some specimens out there weather there male or female. and they get noticed I'm cool with that. now if its ribbed in your face then that insensitive. 

I know a couple who pick one person....a famous person that they give each other the free pass if they would ever get the chance the could bump ugly s no questions asked. this is their inside joke. knowing that it ever happening is very very unlikely. why would George clowny(lol) want to bang so average looking middle aged woman. or Jessica Alba giving head to some bald middle aged married man. it just ani't going to happen. but they use this as a form of foreplay with inside jokes.....it works for them i guess.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Many beautiful stars have been left by their spouses. I don't think appearance is what keeps people together. I think it is the emotional connection.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

jld said:


> Many beautiful stars have been left by their spouses. I don't think appearance is what keeps people together. I think it is the emotional connection.


I think its both.

say if your partner gained a hundred lbs and quit brushing their teeth which turned green and black with rot.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> I think its both.
> 
> say if your partner gained a hundred lbs and quit brushing their teeth which turned green and black with rot.


Can't see my husband doing that. And for sure I would not be attracted.

I think beautiful people are left regularly. And it's not because they got fat or stopped brushing their teeth.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

intheory said:


> Many men become fixated on these women. These women have followings on twitter, their own websites etc etc. So to say that men don't form a sexual bond of sorts with these women isn't sincere.


Cathy Guisewite (The cartoonist) once said that, "Men cheer for the team; Women cheer for the players." 

I've no doubt that what you've described above happens, but it doesn't strike me as typical male behavior or what I would say the principal danger that pornography poses to a man actually is.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> ... you can find some pretty disturbing ideas in print too. Writers aren't trammeled by the constraints of flesh and blood.


Agreed, absolutely. I've read some "erotica" that was downright disturbing. 

And it's not just women who end up dehumanized this way.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening littledeer
I think that if porn were more socially acceptable it would be easier to regulate the industry. Despite it being extremely common and watched but a substantial fraction of people, it is still rarely discussed. That makes it difficult to get political support for reasonable regulation.

Even if it is regulated, there is still the very difficult problem of how to keep people from doing porn out of desperation. For *some* people porn is degrading in a very different way than any other job, but it is also something that any modestly attractive young woman can do. 

At the same time, I don't wan't to prevent women from doing porn if their personalities make it an OK career choice for them. There ARE some women to earn large salaries (more than I do) doing something that they enjoy. (Yes, they are acting, but the still enjoy the career / lifestyle) There are also exhibitionists who like to be watched while they are having sex. 

As far as the effect on the watcher, I think it is similar to alcohol. Some people can have a drink at dinner. Others end up in the gutter with a bottle of rot-gut in a paper bag. Some people enjoy occasionally watching porn. Others let it substitute for a real sex life. 

Its good to give people freedom to make their own choices, but that includes the freedom to make very bad choices.

As an aside, I find mainstream porn utterly boring. I don't know how common this feeling is, but I still hope that the professional industry will gradually be displaced by porn done by real exhibitionists who are doing it for fun, not profit.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

http://www.covenanteyes.com/2014/02/28/hypofrontality/


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Neuroscience Speaks: How Using Porn Destroys Your Willpower


MF, why did you change the link?


----------



## rawra9 (Feb 20, 2015)

Oldmatelot said:


> Are they addictive? I can agree that they are. But it depends if you have an addictive personality. I just posted in another thread about my wife's Kindle. Fully kinked. Is she addicted? No, she leaves it for months at a time. Does it affect our lives? Somewhat, I know if she's been reading it I had better be ready.


Hi..what do u mean by fully kinked?


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

intheory said:


> Do the same thing back to her. I know it sounds petty and childish; but I swear, sometimes it's the only thing that will work.
> 
> Openly and unabashedly look at pictures of beautiful women in bikinis or lingerie and let out a sigh under your breath. Have the latest SI Swimsuit issue next to your side of the bed. Whatever works for you.
> 
> ...


If that's not his way, then why would he do that? Why not simply calmly address it when it comes up? 

Exactly when you observed the lightning-fast like, you should have asked her "Do you have any idea how much that just hurt me?". Calm, even tone. Direct eye contact. Then accept NO excuses. 

NO need for games. That could just start a tit for tat, or escalate things. Address the issue, don't dance around it.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

My wife is into Romance Novels . I said to her once that they are porn for women. She just shrugged it off saying they are just love stories. I never had a discussion with her about porn I suspect that she sees it as vile.

I gave up my borderline addiction to porn cold turkey.

My wife has read alot of the top line romance novel stuff

50 Shades........ Silvia Day series and the like .Suggested to her by my two adult daughters (KRING)

Has done no harm that I can tell

It's seems to have woken her up sexually Or maybe I have worked on my skills as a lover and more importantly as a man in general

Or possibly both

But guess what

With the combination of the two Our level of intimacy has sky rocketed like we are Newly Weds

Go figure

Draw your own conclusions

55


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

intheory said:


> The thread topic is "porn and romance novels" , not "women watch porn too"


Its also not a "men are evil" "women are just objects to men" thread either. But I get your point.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Please feel free to quote me and show me where I have said that men are evil?


You don't need to come right out and say it to be obvious.

All you do on this site is rail and rant against men. What other conclusion would we need to come to?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ok I think the general consensus is that abuse of porn/romance novels that effects your relationship is a bad thing. and should be avoided.

Now I like to suggest that women and romance novels plus the added stimulation of toys is a 1-2 punch 

so now men are competing with vampires,cowboys,millionaires etc 
all who are the perfect men romantically. and a device that goes 20,000 rpms hmm. 0r a larger than average insertable toy. 
that might be making sex less pleasurable when they have sex with their plain old average sized husband whose tongue can only go up and down and side to side and not very romantic at that. yea he buys flowers on V-day and tries to buy a nice birthday present But with kids and money tight the grandness of the presents is defiantly on the less than used to be side.

And men are suppose to be happy they are exploring their sexual side. There getting in touch with how sexy feels.


But if men look at porn and use to tight of a grip which makes it harder for him to climax then that's just horrible! he should realize that it make his wife/girlfriend feel bad about themselves. but it feels better with a tight grip! orgasms are more satisfying. shouldn't the wife want the man to explore his sexual side.

if a man should be alright with using toys because the wife desensitized her clit or used a big dildo because she use to a bigger feeling from masturbating to vampires who are hung like a small pony

then shouldn't she be willing to use a tight grip after a hour of sex and he still hasn't climaxed. she should be like let me do it just like you like is this tight enough want me to hold your balls also . 


I still see a huge double standard


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

I can compete with the millionaires The Billionaires are the ones I have trouble with

55


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I have a question for the people who do read romance novels. What percentage of the book is dedicated to raw sex 'scenes'?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Chilly, if a woman prefers her toy, and I admit that I do love my toys, to her husband, that in itself is a problem. HER problem. Her problem that seriously affects him.

You've made other posts about women getting dependent on their vibrators and not being able to get off by their husbands hand, tongue or penis. So let me be very frank with you.

As much as I adore my toys, they ENHANCE not REPLACE our sexual play. While they can give wonderful orgasms on their own, single play pales in comparison to partner play.

As hot as I find erotic stories, I am not foolish enough to look down on my husband because he isn't a helicopter pilot, a billionaire, or a hot shot CEO with six pack abs and a degree in psychology and gynecology. 

Could a husband maybe put a little bit more effort into things? Could a husband investigate what it is that is turning his wife off to him and turning her on so deeply to inanimate objects and pretend boyfriend lovers? Could a wife show her H a passage or two from her stories that turns her on? Could she include her H in using her toys? 

There are a lot of work arounds if both husband and wife will communicate openly and honestly.

Samyeager has said it hurts his feelings when his wife openly ogles men, yet doesn't afford him the same level of enthusiastic approval or interest. This is the kind of communication men should be doing if they fear they are being replaced or down graded.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I have a question for the people who do read romance novels. What percentage of the book is dedicated to raw sex 'scenes'?


In the books that my wife reads, that percentage would be zero.

These books are an ode to the thrill one experiences in the early stages of a relationship.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> ok I think the general consensus is that abuse of porn/romance novels that effects your relationship is a bad thing. and should be avoided.
> 
> Now I like to suggest that women and romance novels plus the added stimulation of toys is a 1-2 punch


 Huh? Are you assuming that women are using vibrators most of the time while reading romance novels?


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> I still see a huge double standard


Is it an actual double-standard? Or is it recognition of actual problems and actual effects?

Take, for example, the responses on this thread, and similar threads here on TAM.

Do we not see fairly mutual agreement that any spouse that chooses their fantasy solo play over their partner is doing real disservice to them and the marriage?

If a woman is desensitized by excessive use of a vibrator, she is warned to stop and go back to ordinary touch. If a woman spends too much time ogling other men, she is told she is hurting her partner, and should turn her attention to him. If she gets unhappy with him for not being a billionaire psychopath, she's told to get a grip on reality. When the problems are the same, the advice is the same.

But, it turns out the problems are different. The issue with men becoming desensitized to partnered sex, "death-grip" masturbation, and focused on porn and fantasy solo, is a growing concern that sex therapists and psychologist have openly acknowledged. In a world where men are already taught to suppress their feelings and that relationships have no value to their sexuality, the last thing they need, I would think, is further reinforcement of this.

Whereas women have traditionally had the opposite problem, that is to subvert or shut down their sexual side because "good girls don't". And so instead of becoming too fixated on their fantasy outlets, women are using them to explore and discover their sexuality. Because getting fixated on their toys and tools is not yet a huge problem, indeed because it is currently more of a problem that women tend to be too suppressed sexually, it isn"t yet time to start accusing them of shutting out their partners or holding them to unrealistic standards (unless, of course, the specific situation warrants it).

Also, I do think that typical porn is anti-relationship, that is, it in and of itself encourages de-contextualized and de-humanized sex, devoid of feeling, compassion, concern, and respect for both men and women.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

just got it 55 said:


> I can compete with the millionaires The Billionaires are the ones I have trouble with
> 
> 55


good for care to make a donation to just an average Joe?


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

If I've read the original articles correctly, (Especially Alex Marshall's column) the concern being expressed doesn't actually seem to be about sex _per se._ 

The concern appears to me to be with the lopsided nature of the way relationships are portrayed. The courtship / Get to know you phase of a relationship by its very nature can't last forever. I'm not saying we shouldn't continue to date our spouses; I'm saying that eventually we know them better than the backs of our own hands and the novelty and newness fades.

When a person is reliving that phase of a relationship over and over, especially in the egocentric way that fiction portrays it, they are arguably longing for something they are going to have a tough time finding except through an affair. 

I do understand the argument that this is a relatively harmless way of obtaining that thrill and as such, is only entertainment. But at the same time, I also understand how a partner (Especially an observant one) might start to feel inadequate after awhile and the relationship could be harmed in a manner not so very different than visual forms of pornography may harm a relationship.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Huh? Are you assuming that women are using vibrators most of the time while reading romance novels?


no I comparing the argument that when a woman comes here complaining that her husband can not climax through regular sex it is considered bad that he uses porn and a tight grip. That he is selfish for being addicted to porn.
(I do not have this problem. I can orgasm fine with regular sex) I felt the need to put that in because I think some posters are trying to help me with a situation I don't have. 

compared to the opposite if a man comes her and says his wife can only climax with a toy theres a whole slue of arguments why its ok. 

that's the only way some can climax
she's just exploring her sexuality (you should be happy)





I don't have a problem with toys. I think all sexual activity with you partner should be about communicating learning what each other like together in a fun low stress loving way.

its the double standard that drives me crazy.

women can enjoy their porn of choice and masturbate until that's the only way they can orgasm.

but men are chastised for the same thing.


I personally would never use porn again if my wife was open to having frequent sex, not just piv but really care and try to do some of the thing that I like and by the way do for her.

I feel that all sexual activity should be saved for each other. that one should only take matters into their own hands to relieve themselves when the other is unwilling to meet their needs.

that the partner who is refusing should be aware that this could very well harm their relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> no I comparing the argument that when a woman comes here complaining that her husband can not climax through regular sex it is considered bad that he uses porn and a tight grip. That he is selfish for being addicted to porn.
> (I do not have this problem. I can orgasm fine with regular sex) I felt the need to put that in because I think some posters are trying to help me with a situation I don't have.
> 
> compared to the opposite if a man comes her and says his wife can only climax with a toy theres a whole slue of arguments why its ok.
> ...


this is how I have also read the large percentage of post on this subject on TAM as well. Women should feel free to explore whatever they want through porn, sex, toys, romance novels ect..... 

Men should only look at and touch thier wives. 

That is a double standard. 

Least some consensus on if ANY of this affects the healthy sexual relationship with spouse should be stopped. Completely agree with that. Any of these could be damaging to a relatioship. Have seen that first hand


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Its like men are pigs if they go to a strip joint.

But when women go see male strippers, its just good clean fun

And no, I don't believe people who are married, men or women, should be going to strip joints. I think its disrespectful. Just my opinion.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

This topic always amuses me.

When I read a book or watch a movie that is not based on Real Life, I don't have any difficulty disambiguating reality and fantasy. Do any of you? I don't expect my wife to be or to act like a crack criminal investigator, or a princess from another star system, or a coke addled street walker just because I see one in the cinema the night before. The same goes for our sex life. 

Does ANYONE posting on this subject believe that they are personally unable to untangle the two? Porn, romance novels, fiction, chick flicks, whatever? Is this a problem any of us really face, or is it only an issue for the nebulous slack-jawed sloping forehead 'other' out there in the wild?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Cletus said:


> This topic always amuses me.
> 
> When I read a book or watch a movie that is not based on Real Life, I don't have any difficulty disambiguating reality and fantasy. Do any of you? I don't expect my wife to be or to act like a crack criminal investigator, or a princess from another star system, or a coke addled street walker just because I see one in the cinema the night before. The same goes for our sex life.
> 
> Does ANYONE posting on this subject believe that they are personally unable to untangle the two? Porn, romance novels, fiction, chick flicks, whatever? Is this a problem any of us really face, or is it only an issue for the nebulous slack-jawed sloping forehead 'other' out there in the wild?


I think lots of people in today's world have trouble with this!


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

I read Amish Romance novels. Not really any porn in them. They are just sweet stories about familes and couples falling in love. They are cute but I can only read 2 or 3 at a time. They are very cookie cutter. They get boring. Unless they have mystery in them which one series did. Then they get a little more interesting.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> I think lots of people in today's world have trouble with this!


But not you, right? Certainly not me. Probably no one else here. 

Just "them".


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Does ANYONE posting on this subject believe that they are personally unable to untangle the two?


There's not a soul here (Including myself) who's not going to say, "I'm not stupid" when it comes to separating fantasy from reality and I think at the age range most of us seem to be in that's probably true.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I read Amish Romance novels.


Well I'll be sodomized on Christmas. Amish Romance novels. 

Probably no long-winded explanations of how much his mustache tickled I'm betting.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> There's not a soul here (Including myself) who's not going to say, "I'm not stupid" when it comes to separating fantasy from reality and I think at the age range most of us seem to be in that's probably true.


Then it seems there's two most likely possibilities. No more squirming, Mr. Ocotillo. Is the problem overblown or is our self assessment of our ability to withstand it? 

I vote for option #1.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Cletus said:


> But not you, right? Certainly not me. Probably no one else here.
> 
> Just "them".


What's your point?
No I don't think I have trouble distinguishing between the two I think my wife dose!

And anybody who would rather use porn/romance novel instead of a loving partner!


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Well I'll be sodomized on Christmas. Amish Romance novels.
> 
> Probably no long-winded explanations of how much his mustache tickled I'm betting.


I'm confused. What does that mean?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Then it seems there's two most likely possibilities. No more squirming, Mr. Ocotillo. Is the problem overblown or is our self assessment of our ability to withstand it?
> 
> I vote for option #1.


Whatever helps you sleep at night! The ostrich aproach .....I see.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> What's your point?
> No I don't think I have trouble distinguishing between the two I think my wife dose!


My point was how easily we attribute flaws to others that we would never in a million years succumb to ourselves. 



> And anybody who would rather use porn/romance novel instead of a loving partner!


Well, that's a different problem. I'm specifically talking about the dread masses whose lives are ruined by the failed comparison of their lover to a fictional character because they believe the fiction is reality - just not _their_ reality.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm confused. What does that mean?


That's almost as cute as the thought of you reading Amish romance novels. 

I wonder if Khoisan romance novels exist? I think I see a niche...


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> no I comparing the argument that when a woman comes here complaining that her husband cannot climax through regular sex it is considered bad that he uses porn and a tight grip. That he is selfish for being addicted to porn.
> (I do not have this problem. I can orgasm fine with regular sex) I felt the need to put that in because I think some posters are trying to help me with a situation I don't have.
> 
> compared to the opposite if a man comes her and says his wife can only climax with a toy theres a whole slue of arguments why its ok.


It think that the circumstance matters. 
I have never seen anyone suggest that if a woman uses a toy on her own to the point that she can only climax with the toy, then there is a problem. That is the situation that is analogous to a guy who has masturbated to porn so much that no longer can have sex with his wife. Both of these are bad situations. Both the woman and the man in these scenarios need to do something to de-sensitize themselves.


If on the other hand she has not been desensitized by excessive use of a toy. That is a completely different issue. The problem could be a few things. It could be that she just does not feel the stimulation except if it’s extreme. Or it could be that her mate does not understand how to bring her to a climax. Only about 25% of women can climax from PIV alone. There is just nothing most of us can do about that.

So you comparing apples and oranges.





chillymorn said:


> that's the only way some can climax


Sadly that is true for some women. I mean women who have not desensitized themselves using a toy. 




chillymorn said:


> she's just exploring her sexuality (you should be happy)









chillymorn said:


> I don't have a problem with toys. I think all sexual activity with you partner should be about communicating learning what each other like together in a fun low stress loving way.
> 
> its the double standard that drives me crazy.





chillymorn said:


> women can enjoy their porn of choice and masturbate until that's the only way they can orgasm.


Not one person here has said this.. except you. The fact is that most romance novels have little to no sexual action in them. Most women do not masturbate to romance novels. So a woman will spend hours reading a basically non-sexual book about a relationship. Like watching most chick flicks. 

That is not equivalent to a man using porn where he can look at dozens of naked women, with their private parts stuck up in the cameral while she makes fake noises and pretends she’s enjoying. Porn is quick stimulation that is nothing but sexual in nature.
They cannot be compared.


chillymorn said:


> but men are chastised for the same thing.


Most women do not even read romance novels. Even fewer read erotica. Most men use porn on a regular basis.



chillymorn said:


> I personally would never use porn again if my wife was open to having frequent sex, not just piv but really care and try to do some of the thing that I like and by the way do for her.


So she makes you do it????


chillymorn said:


> I feel that all sexual activity should be saved for each other. that one should only take matters into their own hands to relieve themselves when the other is unwilling to meet their needs.


How do you know that women who do use toys by themselves aren’t using them for the same reason you use porn? Per haps their husbands are non-attentive and thus it’s their husband’s fault?


chillymorn said:


> that the partner who is refusing should be aware that this could very well harm their relationship.


Yep, when a partner refuses sex .. be that partner a man or a woman, it harms the relationship. I doubt anyone would disagree with that.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I've heard that the Soviet Union had a genre known as "Tractor Romances". Tatiana, performing her Patriotic Duty at a lichen farm in Estonia. Yum.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Cletus said:


> This topic always amuses me.
> 
> When I read a book or watch a movie that is not based on Real Life, I don't have any difficulty disambiguating reality and fantasy. Do any of you? I don't expect my wife to be or to act like a crack criminal investigator, or a princess from another star system, or a coke addled street walker just because I see one in the cinema the night before. The same goes for our sex life.
> 
> Does ANYONE posting on this subject believe that they are personally unable to untangle the two? Porn, romance novels, fiction, chick flicks, whatever? Is this a problem any of us really face, or is it only an issue for the nebulous slack-jawed sloping forehead 'other' out there in the wild?


Not at all. I agree and share your point. Porn is also fantasy. No trouble distinguishing between that and reality. Sad that some can't and believe me some can't


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Then it seems there's two most likely possibilities. No more squirming, Mr. Ocotillo. Is the problem overblown or is our self assessment of our ability to withstand it?
> 
> I vote for option #1.


There was a phenomenon in the U.S. that roughly coincided with the release of Bambi in 1942. What followed was a fairly long period of social ignorance about wildlife management and the importance of the predator/prey cycle in any healthy ecosystem. It was actually called the, "Walt Disney Syndrome." 

Despite the name, it's not really possible to establish causality though. Who's to say if movies where cute little bunnies, birdies and deer were "Good" while hunters and predators of all types were "Bad" influenced public opinion or were simply a reflection of public opinion? (Or some combination of the two.)

If this comes across as squirming, I'm afraid that can't be helped. We're not talking about anything even remotely resembling a hard science here. I do think that media of all types has a profound influence on the general public and young people in particular. I see grand nieces and their friends posting thoughts on "True Love" on their Facebook pages and a lot of it sounds like it came straight out of a romance novel for how unrealistic it is. Ultimately though, who knows why people think what they think and do what they do?


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening intheory
I almost completely agree, but while I agree that the great majority of adult women who read romances don't really want to be married to a rock-star, it may still influence their image of "romance".

You mention the lack of financial issues - he's a out of work artist who lives in a 5000 square foot loft with a view of central park: poverty is a style, not an actual lack of money.

I think people need to be careful that they don't let romance (or porn) subtly change their idea of what real life is like. That they are not left unsatisfied with live because it isn't like the fantasy. 




intheory said:


> I agree that women should not be using sex toys in place of their husband. Men shouldn't use sex toys in place of their wives either -- there are "toys" for men too.
> 
> Toys are okay for someone who is single and doesn't want sex until they are in a relationship.
> 
> ...


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> no I comparing the argument that when a woman comes here complaining that her husband can not climax through regular sex it is considered bad that he uses porn and a tight grip. That he is selfish for being addicted to porn.
> (I do not have this problem. I can orgasm fine with regular sex) I felt the need to put that in because I think some posters are trying to help me with a situation I don't have.
> 
> compared to the opposite if a man comes her and says his wife can only climax with a toy theres a whole slue of arguments why its ok.
> ...


shh... you're not supposed to mention the double standards....


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

intheory said:


> This is good point, and I think it needs to be emphasized here.
> 
> Women sitting reading a Harlequin romance novel with her hands down her pants; I don't think so. You would have had to have to have read those books to understand how absurd that is.
> 
> ...


I don't think women read with their hands down their pants!

but I do think that when they do have alone time or after reading the relationship novel that ends in the tension build up of sex that they fantasize about it while they rub one out.

the real problem is when they are dissatisfied with the romance of a normal health marriage because they are comparing it to what they have convinced themselves of what it should be like. from reading the romance novels to begin with.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Well, that's a different problem. I'm specifically talking about the dread masses whose lives are ruined by the failed comparison of their lover to a fictional character because they believe the fiction is reality - just not _their_ reality.


I've had a number of guys put pretty unrealistic expectations on me, and while I can't prove they came from porn, I really can't imagine where else they came from.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

I am sure plenty of men have dated women who believed Prince Charming existed or a millionaire tycoon from Days of our lives was going to swoop down and take them to their castle.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

always_alone said:


> I've had a number of guys put pretty unrealistic expectations on me, and while I can't prove they came from porn, I really can't imagine where else they came from.


can you give an example?

one persons unrealistic expectations is another persons normal.

expecting oral when you give freely or trying new positions seem rather normal.

expecting anal or gagging while deep throating or any type of bondage might be unrealistic.


----------



## tryingtodoitright (Jan 14, 2014)

my wife has major issues with romance novels and our house suffers because of it (complete wreck, i do most of the housework in about a third of the time on the weekends/weeknights even with the kids and hold a full time job). i noticed that she was buying them at a clip of one every three days or more. we wound up having a fight over it, she admitted that it was a problem and promised to cut back. 

two weeks later, she jumped right back in. since jan 1, she's ordered 36 books for her nook. 300 pages a book (round numbers), that's 10800 pages read. works out to 180 pages a day. if she reads a page a minute, that's 3 hours a day that she isn't contributing to our house. our kids have never had a sleepover and they never will at this rate. 

yeah, it's a problem for some people.


----------



## maleforplay (Sep 22, 2014)

I live in a sexless marriage! I masturbate to naked women masturbating or lesbians and some times men masturbating I have read Shades and other books like it I see no problem I get off however I can. I would certainly rather have sex with her and oral sex with her but oh well it is what it is. don't be to hard on us for taking our sex lives in or own hands pardon the pun.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I've had a number of guys put pretty unrealistic expectations on me, and while I can't prove they came from porn, I really can't imagine where else they came from.


And I have had a woman place unrealistic expectations on me that seemingly came from Disney movies and romance novels. What is called the princess complex 


So again we are back to some people have problems with porn, some with romance novels. the problem is with those people and not necessarily the books or porn since many seem able to use them and aren't negatively affected by it.

If I had a male friend who was dating a woman that was in the clouds about romance and expectaions I would tell him to ditch her

If I had a female friend who's SO was masterbating to porn all day and not having sex with her then I would tell her to ditch him

Both are broken people.


----------



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I've had a number of guys put pretty unrealistic expectations on me, and while I can't prove they came from porn, I really can't imagine where else they came from.


Let's define "expectations" while we're at it. And ability to live up to them. 
Expectation does not equal "suggests we do it one or a few times in a sexual situation". It DOES equal "will only be satisfied once her partner exceeds 95% of her known female friends partners on all levels of measure - looks, income, "badboyness", fitness, etc.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> And I have had a woman place unrealistic expectations on me that seemingly came from Disney movies and romance novels. What is called the princess complex
> 
> So again we are back to some people have problems with porn, some with romance novels. the problem is with those people and not necessarily the books or porn since many seem able to use them and aren't negatively affected by it.
> 
> ...


Cletus asked if any of this was a problem that actual people on this board faced. I chimed in with my example, and you have brought yours. A few others brought theirs.

So, it's all very well for you to name call and judge, but really, the upshot is that yes, this is a very real problem faced by very real people.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Let's define "expectations" while we're at it. And ability to live up to them.
> Expectation does not equal "suggests we do it one or a few times in a sexual situation". It DOES equal "will only be satisfied once her partner exceeds 95% of her known female friends partners on all levels of measure - looks, income, "badboyness", fitness, etc.


Okay, yes, let's talk about expectations. I am the primary breadwinner in my house, I have never had any man look after me, or provide for me in any way, and haven't got so much as a gift from a man in roughly 3 or 4 years, nor do I ever expect to get one again. I try to eat well, stay healthy, but have zero expectations that my SO will lose get 60 extra pounds he has put on. I work hard, challenge myself, and try to be a somewhat reasonable human being, and my only expectation is that I will be able to look at myself in the mirror at the end of the day.

Indeed, I have very few expectations, and most of them are grounded fairly solidly in the reality that I am not the one who measures up in many if not most men's eyes. 

Why? Because I don't look a certain way, dress in heels or thongs, or conform properly to our porn culture where women are just pretty objects for male consumption.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Okay, yes, let's talk about expectations. I am the primary breadwinner in my house, I have never had any man look after me, or provide for me in any way, and haven't got so much as a gift from a man in roughly 3 or 4 years, nor do I ever expect to get one again. I try to eat well, stay healthy, but have zero expectations that my SO will lose get 60 extra pounds he has put on. I work hard, challenge myself, and try to be a somewhat reasonable human being, and my only expectation is that I will be able to look at myself in the mirror at the end of the day.
> 
> Indeed, I have very few expectations, and most of them are grounded fairly solidly in the reality that I am not the one who measures up in many if not most men's eyes.
> 
> Why? Because I don't look a certain way, dress in heels or thongs, or conform properly to our porn culture where women are just pretty objects for male consumption.


I don't know what your talking about you sound like the perfect woman to me.

there are men who would love a hard working good natured woman with reasonable expectations 

I living proof!

maybe its time to reevaluate if you want to be married.

It a tuff decision, but everybody has to make some tuff choices through out their lives.

My idea of a good woman.

1) someone who tries to stay in shape 
2)someone who is fun to be around. with a pleasant disposition.3)someone who is attracted to me and want to have and share a physical relationship
4)someone who I am attracted to both mentally/physically/emotionally
5) some one who is a hrad worked and is responsible with their earnings
6) someone who wants to tell me their deepest secrets
/desires
7) someone I can trust to have my back when I need it
8)someone who supports my dreams and desires 
9) someone who encourages me when I do well and tells me in a loving way I am not.
someone who surprises me with sex just because 
someone who can take some constructive criticism. Without acing like I just stabbed her in the heart.


----------



## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Let's define "expectations" while we're at it.


Expectation is simply the state of looking forward to something as either likely to occur or a reasonable turn of events. 

Somebody in another thread (I think it may have been AA) presented a study of teenage heterosexual couples in the UK published in the British Medical Journal, which documented an increasing expectation that females consent to anal sex. Interviewees in the study did cite pornography as their explanation and researchers did conclude that it was a contributory factor.

I'm not sure if this is what you or chillymorn were looking for or not. I can't really think of a better example off of the top of my head.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> Expectation is simply the state of looking forward to something as either likely to occur or a reasonable turn of events.
> 
> Somebody in another thread (I think it may have been AA) presented a study of teenage heterosexual couples in the UK published in the British Medical Journal, which documented an increasing expectation that females consent to anal sex. Interviewees in the study did cite pornography as their explanation and researchers did conclude that it was a contributory factor.
> 
> I'm not sure if this is what you or chillymorn were looking for or not. I can't really think of a better example off of the top of my head.


everybody has their own definition of expatiations in regard to sexual activities with their wife.

frequency,oral,just being recprical I mean if your giving I think you should be getting.

unrealistic expectations might be someone who want something way out of normal(I know normal is relative) like say public sex or super risky stuff like swinging or scat/golder showers.


I think there is main stream sex stuff that most think are the usual sex act that most people do for each other.


the same can be said for romance.

buying flowers and such is usual romance for most.

but expressing your undying love every time you make love might be unrealistic.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Cletus asked if any of this was a problem that actual people on this board faced. I chimed in with my example, and you have brought yours. A few others brought theirs.
> 
> So, it's all very well for you to* name call and judge*, but really, the upshot is that yes, this is a very real problem faced by very real people.


I never name called anyone. Perhaps you have me confused with another poster. I was just illustrating that this isn't just a porn and guy problem. Or that somehow a guy addicted to porn is automatically worse than a woman addicted to or having unrealistic expectations on relationships and Romance based on a book.

They are both equally devastating inside a relationship


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> everybody has their own definition of expatiations in regard to sexual activities with their wife.
> 
> frequency,oral,just being recprical I mean if your giving I think you should be getting.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I never name called anyone. Perhaps you have me confused with another poster.


No, what I was referring to was when you said that such people are "broken".


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Expectation is simply the state of looking forward to something as either likely to occur or a reasonable turn of events.
> 
> Somebody in another thread (I think it may have been AA) presented a study of teenage heterosexual couples in the UK published in the British Medical Journal, which documented an increasing expectation that females consent to anal sex. Interviewees in the study did cite pornography as their explanation and researchers did conclude that it was a contributory factor.


Yes, that was me, and yes, exactly this sort of thing.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

always_alone said:


> No, what I was referring to was when you said that such people are "broken".


That's not name calling.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

always_alone said:


> No, what I was referring to was when you said that such people are "broken".


That's not name calling. That's reference to people having issues such as porn addiction or people who have unrealistic fantasies about romance and love

Those people are broken


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening octillo
Its difficult to separate an "expectation" from an "idea" from that information. Porn may have encouraged more people to *try* anal sex. Thats fine - its only a problem (expectation) if women who didn't want to do it were pressured (which may have happened). 

What makes it tricky is that different people like different things. Some women do l enjoy anal, giving BJs etc. Some do not. Porn or other sources of "ideas" may encourage people to try and enjoy new things - or they may make people feel pressured to perform certain acts. 




ocotillo said:


> Expectation is simply the state of looking forward to something as either likely to occur or a reasonable turn of events.
> 
> Somebody in another thread (I think it may have been AA) presented a study of teenage heterosexual couples in the UK published in the British Medical Journal, which documented an increasing expectation that females consent to anal sex. Interviewees in the study did cite pornography as their explanation and researchers did conclude that it was a contributory factor.
> 
> I'm not sure if this is what you or chillymorn were looking for or not. I can't really think of a better example off of the top of my head.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Always Alone. 
There is a lot of variety among men. My wife works full time in a professional career. She is small breasted (even before a partial mastectomy from cancer). She never wears heels - and I wouldn't want her to - we enjoy walking. The only time she wore a thong was as a birthday surprise for me. 

I've loved her for most of my life. My only complaint about her is that she is not as physically attracted to me as I am to her.





always_alone said:


> snip...
> Indeed, I have very few expectations, and most of them are grounded fairly solidly in the reality that I am not the one who measures up in many if not most men's eyes.
> 
> Why? Because I don't look a certain way, dress in heels or thongs, or conform properly to our porn culture where women are just pretty objects for male consumption.


----------

