# Marriage. A sex contract of sorts?



## Cleancut (Jun 27, 2014)

Hi all, I've been watching this forum for quite some time now and have a theory/question for you all.
Is there a hidden sexual contract in marriage?
From my pint of view, dating is simply an extended job interview.
eg. Potential spouse is into swallowing, anal, desired frequency etc. (insert your own preferences)
So, when this person passes the interview, is it fair to expect that the things that were basically "negotiated" will continue to occur at the desired (pre-established) frequency or am I looking at this incorrectly?
A practical example:
I stuck my finger in my wifes ass the first time we had sex (many years before marriage). Why? To establish if she's into that kind of stuff. For me, anal (for example) is a not negotiable.If she'd told me to stop, I wouldn't have bothered with her any further - why spend your life wanting something you'll never have???
When my wife got drunk once (prior to marriage) and told her brother "I LOVE it in the ass" I knew I had the right girl.
4 years later, I find myself married to a woman who's trelling me "it hurts too much".....
Very much feeling like the recipient of the bait and switch right now.
How do I tactfully explain that I would never have married a girl who wasn't into these kinds of things?
PS I'm not looking for judgements here, just advice.
Thanks


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

Based on what you've written it sounds like you assumed rather than explicitly talked with her about this thing that is apparently a deal breaker for you. If it is that important don't assume, don't infer, don't conclude based on second or third hand information, talk about it with the other person directly and unambiguously and confirm you are both in agreement.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

well, maybe it does "hurt too much". Try to keep it down to only once per day!


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

Cleancut said:


> When my wife got drunk once (prior to marriage) and told her brother "I LOVE it in the ass" I knew I had the right girl.



Maybe she was talking to her brother about something completely innocent and your dirty mind found it interesting.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Maybe she needs you to go slower.

Maybe she needs more lubricant.

Maybe she worries about being clean enough.

Have you explicitly asked her about these details?

I'm not sure; was she okay with *just a finger* when you first met her?

When she told her brother that she liked it; she was drunk and was maybe sharing a fantasy. Perhaps reality isn't matching the fantasy.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

There is no such contract, only an expectation. There used to be, and men could rape or beat their wives to obtain compliance (but not vice versa) with impunity, but now there are laws to help prevent such abuse, and rightly so.

In these more enlightened times you can negotiate with her or divorce her. Also, people change, so what they liked and did may not longer be valid. Bait and switch is also alive and well, so if something is important, get it in writing and put it in a prenup. Otherwise, you take your chances.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So the first time you had sex with your wife, then your GF, it was an audition of sorts? To check the chemistry and ensure her boundaries were within your idea of must haves? 

Seriously?

Did your Mommy make your bed every day for you? Did she also call your teachers and tell them what grade you deserved, get you out of detention...?

What a sense of entitlement you have?

People change, bodies change, feelings change. If your sexual menu had to include anal or you would feel cheated and manipulated, you should not have gotten married. Life doesn't work that way.

Getting tired of the "anal retentive entitled" posts. You stick a dildo up your ass and let us know how hot it makes you feel?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Unless you outright spoke to her about your expectations then you have no leg to stand upon here,IMO. Did she know that no anal meant deal breaker to you?

No judgments here but just a question for men in general...why do some of you say no anal is a dealbreaker when you wouldn't be the recipient of a stuffed anus yourself? If it's not pleasurable for you then why do you feel it should be pleasurable for her? 

Also,regarding the drunken comment...why would you assume she was into it based on a drunk conversation? People say all kinds of crazy sh*t when drinking. I once tried to convince my husband that I was a sugarplum fairy who could fly. He didn't hold me to that thankfully bc we'd be divorced by now if that's what he was expecting.


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## SeekingEcstasy (Jun 20, 2014)

It's never going to stay the same, period. You change as well. Talk it out to find a way to meet both your needs. Some people go ito swinging because one wants something the other doesn't. It depends on how much you want to see the other person fulfilled and how much you want to stay together. 

By the way, her drunken conversation does tell you something about her mindset at the time. Things have changed. Maybe you change and are too rough or her body has changed. I think it is the man's place to be sure she is comfortable, safe, and enjoying things. After all, in that situation, she just has to take what you disk out.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It sounds like you never even spoke her about your requirement that anal is required. She should have known this before marriage. You have secret, covert expectation and are now upset that she does not even know it.

Anal is something that cannot be demanded. There are many reasons that why anal can hurt. Surely you know this. Anal sex can cause damage hurts like hell. Sometimes it never heals right. Your wife says that it turns. End of story. 

What I would like to know is that why don’t you care that it hurts your wife? Why are you so insensitive to your wife that you would hurt her to get your own jollies?

If you cannot survive without anal sex, divorce your wife. She deserves better than this.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I think men have a sexuall contract so to speak and women have a emotional contract.

when either sex does a bait and switch resentment builds because our expectations are not being met. back to comunicat comunicate comunicate. and some compromise with a loving heart goes a long way.


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

I love the fact that this forum is anonymous.

I tried it a few time with my hubby. It was never terrific, but it also wasn't horrible. Five years ago that changed. Now it is incredibly painful. The last time he tried he stopped because I started crying and I bled lightly for a day. I am a big one for communication, somI told him we couldn't do it anymore. That is when he said "I love you, not your ass."

Perhaps you could ask yourself why you don't love your wife more than her ass. Then set her free to find someone who will.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

It sounds like this falls under the more general topic of, what do you expect will stay the same in marriage, and what should you expect (and be willing, be required, to deal with, and accept) to change. It sounds like, while the OP didn't vocalize that it may be a "deal breaker," he was pretty durn forthcoming in introducing anal as a part of their relationhip (safe to assume, if he introduces it, it means he likes it). It also sounds like she embraced it and expressed her affection for it, and it sounds like a good bit of time passed where it was "on the menu." Correct, OP?

Anon Pink: I'm surprised to hear your comment that the "job interview" analogy is so outlandish (and implying entitlement?). I mean....it isn't that off the mark is it? When you date someone, you're basically finding out all you can about them, in a variety of ways, including sex, to determine if there could be a long-term fit? I admit, stating he just jabbed a finger up there seems awfully forward, instead of just talking about it, but it sounds like, one way or another, that introduction method isn't the issue now.

Imagine this more as a general comment now, and the specifics can come in second: there was something his wife did that was important to him in the relationship. He sought early on to find out if she was willing/into this particular thing, she was, and it was a part of their relationship for a significant period of time. Now, it's (suddenly) gone/a problem, and he's wondering, where's the barometer on, should he feel like it SHOULD be brought back?

You could make lots of other analogies: it's nearly identical to the classic "my wife stopped giving me BJs after marriage." It could be, "she was fine with my weekly poker game before marriage, now she thinks I should have to spend Fridays with her." Another may be, "my wife was really into fitness and exercise before marriage, now she stopped and has gained 30 pounds." The issue boils down to, do you marry someone for what they are, and is it reasonable to expect that some of that "what they are" should remain, or when you marry someone, are you just committed to stay on board regardless of how they evolve and change?

edit: in this case, I'll add, if this is a clear, physical issue with her, no, he doesn't deserve to keep ramming his wife anally. BUT, if it is off the table completely for whatever reason, I think he's allowed to be disappointed, at the very least.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm glad it's not a requirement for us.

We've had anal five times or so. I think two or three times it was slightly pleasurable for me during the act but definitely nothing I could orgasm from. He liked it but honestly, to me most of the time it just felt like I was having a bowel movement. Sexy amiright?! Also, it's sore down there for a few days afterwards and sh*tting the next day with ejaculate and various lubes in there is an "experience" to say the least. 

Needless to say, I am not into anal and at this point in our relationship, if he demanded it from me, expected it from me, I may try it again but only if he goes first. 

I'm not joking.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I was going to answer one way based on the title, but have the opposite answer after reading the text.

No, she is under no obligation to continue to enjoy or perform any sex acts. She may well have enjoyed it before, but now finds it painful. Or, she may have given you the bait and switch. Only she knows for sure.

Your remedy is to talk with her about what changed, and you can choose to divorce her if she cannot be the partner you need. You do not have the right to demand she continue to do something she finds unpleasant.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

CluelessWif said:


> Perhaps you could ask yourself why you don't love your wife more than her ass. Then set her free to find someone who will.


That's a bit inflammatory, I think. He's only here discussing one issue, we know (at least, not from this thread, I don't think) nothing else about their relationship or his feelings about her in other aspects.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You try anal first and see how pleasurable it is.

FFS. It's her butthole. Bad things can happen. Trust me.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

So, let me see if I understand.

Just because a person does something all the time when you're dating.. they are under no obligation to continue to do it once they are married?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I think men have a sexuall contract so to speak and women have a emotional contract.
> 
> when either sex does a bait and switch resentment builds because our expectations are not being met. back to comunicat comunicate comunicate. and some compromise with a loving heart goes a long way.


Maybe it wasn't a bait and switch.

Maybe she doesn't like anal anymore.

If she had children, maybe hemmoriods (sp) are causing issue.

Maybe it just hurts...have the men here tried it?

I liked it until I was torn, got a pus-filled infection, had to get meds from a DOCTOR about this for the infection and had bowel issues for a long while.

Anal is off limits and my husband doesn't dare ask. He had to help put the meds on  Yea. SOOO sexy!!


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

hambone said:


> So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> Just because a person does something all the time when you're dating.. they are under no obligation to continue to do it once they are married?


I definitely get too wordy, this is well-summarized, LOL.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

If someone truly likes something, then it should carry over in most of the person's life. I didn't even try anal with my husband until after marriage. Or Bjs (he wasn't into them. Wtf? iknowright? )

But people's preferences can change. Being forced to do something you just don't like anymore (and I am not talking about bait and switch or the day after the wedding), feels like crap.

If women have had children, sexual pleasures can change. What felt good before babies may not feel good after babies.

Nothing we can help there.

That doesn't mean libido is gone...just means some things are no longer pleasurable and isn't sex supposed to feel good?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Cleancut said:


> Hi all, I've been watching this forum for quite some time now and have a theory/question for you all.
> Is there a hidden sexual contract in marriage?
> From my pint of view, dating is simply an extended job interview.
> eg. Potential spouse is into swallowing, anal, desired frequency etc. (insert your own preferences)
> ...





hambone said:


> So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> Just because a person does something all the time when you're dating.. they are under no obligation to continue to do it once they are married?


Where in the OP does it read she actively participated in having a **** in her ass? No where. 

A drunken comment and a finger once does NOT mean she pulled a bait and switch nor does it mean she isn't holding up her end of the "marital contract" sexually speaking. 

A finger is quite different from a penis...unless his penis is the same girth as his finger.

Nowhere does OP say he had anal with her prior to marriage and nowhere does he say that he informed her lack of anal is a deal breaker for him. He stuck a finger in there and ASSumed she enjoyed full on anal sex.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm not sure I would go quite as far as saying it is a contract but it is certainly an agreement. Otherwise what is the point of getting married?

In effect both partners are saying that they want to be together for the rest of their lives...they will look after each other in sickness and in health, they will honour each other with their bodies etc etc. In effect they become a team, one.

For a team to work there has to be mutual respect, division of responsibilities etc. 
It also includes compassion and respect for the others sexual needs.

You cannot 'agree' to get married but say; 'Right...I am not prepared to look after you when you are ill because I might catch the flu from you....and I am only prepared to have sex with you once a month. But I am quite happy to share your salary with you, what is yours is mine and what is mine is mine'.

You 'agree' to a package...a package that also includes contributory sex, not duty sex.

We are all allowed to set boundaries...oral sex...if she doesnt much care for it I think she should make the effort occassionally for the sake of her husband....just as if he, say, doesn't like sex in teh bath but she does, he too needs to make the effort.

Its called meeting halfway, compromising and doing something for your spouse because THEY enjoy it.

Marriage is marriage...the full deal. You can't just accept the good bits and reject the bad.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Maybe it wasn't a bait and switch.
> 
> Maybe she doesn't like anal anymore.
> 
> ...


Then there's this too. Bodies change ALL THE TIME people. Especially the female body. 

I was a fan of anal too til I had issues after a surgery for my endometriosis. I still let DH play a little but there is no more full on anal at this point. I guess to the men on this thread I pulled a bait and switch by letting my body change.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. For the men here who talk about anal as if it's no big deal or like in porn (those a##holes are crazy! I don't know how they sh1t.) please TRY having a d1ck up your butthole...thrusting.

Please, try it before you keep talking about it so casually.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Then there's this too. Bodies change ALL THE TIME people. Especially the female body.
> 
> I was a fan of anal too til I had issues after a surgery for my endometriosis. I still let DH play a little but there is no more full on anal at this point. I guess to the men on this thread I pulled a bait and switch by letting my body change.


How dare you be a real woman with real feelings and not some porn actress or robot!

FOR SHAME!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I guess to the men on this thread I pulled a bait and switch by letting my body change.


Bait and switch is when you pretend to enjoy something or you willfully perform some sex act prior to marriage which you don't intend to continue after the wedding.

What you describe is not bait and switch.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Yea. For the men here who talk about anal as if it's no big deal or like in porn (those a##holes are crazy! I don't know how they sh1t.) please TRY having a d1ck up your butthole...thrusting.
> 
> Please, try it before you keep talking about it so casually.


As a guy, I don't get the attraction to anal at all.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> As a guy, I don't get the attraction to anal at all.


I don't mind if people like it, but to whine about not getting it when one has never had a D up their butt gets on my nerves.

Just try it once, guys. Then you'll understand why it's not all the great for most women. It wasn't my idea to try it, I'll tell you that much. It's a butthole. So, just try it, men. If it's good enough for your woman, it's good enough for you.

A cousin of mine pooped all over the bed when her husband pulled out. Why? Because that's where poop lives. And she thought she was cleaned out beforehand.

Ooooh so SEXY!


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

hambone said:


> So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> Just because a person does something all the time when you're dating.. they are under no obligation to continue to do it once they are married?


Meh.

I partied a LOT when we were dating. I suppose I was under an implied contract to party-hardy now that we're older and have two kids in our charge because I did so when we were in the earlier stages of dating. 

People change. I highly doubt OP is the romantic, emotionally available, communicative spouse that he was when he was trying to date her and gauge her receptiveness to having fingers in her bum.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

that_girl said:


> A cousin of mine pooped all over the bed when her husband pulled out. *Why? Because that's where poop lives.* And she thought she was cleaned out beforehand.
> 
> Ooooh so SEXY!


I nearly choked myself laughing.The bold section will never leave my brain. omg.:rofl::rofl:


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Everyone is different and prioritizes sex differently in a marriage.
There are many things that go into a marriage, sex being only one thing, but important.

I do think one universal implication and intrinsic characteristic of marriage is the expectation of sex. Sex is the unique (at least historically) component of marriage, otherwise it's just friendship or cohabitating.

Having said that, beyond the 'expectation of sex', everything beyond that is subject to the couple working it out with love and respect.

I personally take the traditional view, although I wouldn't impose my view on others.

That is; a husband and wife should have sex with regularity to keep the marriage alive, however way they mutually agree and enjoy each other.

I do not believe that dating is an interview. But if there is real love beforehand and afterwards then sex will work itself out in a loving way.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

jorgegene said:


> Everyone is different and prioritizes sex differently in a marriage.
> There are many things that go into a marriage, sex being only one thing, but important.
> 
> I do think one universal implication and intrinsic characteristic of marriage is the expectation of sex. Sex is the unique (at least historically) component of marriage, otherwise it's just friendship or cohabitating.
> ...


how is it not an interview?

I mean so your out on a date and he says I love guns and shooting as much as possible and cars I have to have a motorcycle and a fast car thats just who I am. and you don't particulair care for either as a matter of fact you despise guns and think fast cars are gas hogs and motorcycles could kill you and then leave you without a husband.

interview over......next.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Or even if you think hes all peaches and cream romantic and loveyovey. when you finaly hit the sack he last 3mins and says he thinks vajvaj's are dirty and hes not going to put his mouth down there. yuck ! But expects you to give noce long sensual bj"s.

interview over next.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> when you finaly hit the sack he last 3mins and says he thinks vajvaj's are dirty and hes not going to put his mouth down there. yuck ! But expects you to give noce long sensual bj"s.
> 
> interview over next.


Oh you know my ex? :rofl:


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> how is it not an interview?
> 
> I mean so your out on a date and he says I love guns and shooting as much as possible and cars I have to have a motorcycle and a fast car thats just who I am. and you don't particulair care for either as a matter of fact you despise guns and think fast cars are gas hogs and motorcycles could kill you and then leave you without a husband.
> 
> interview over......next.


I don't think it's an interview as far as sex goes. Many people find out on their wedding night what type of sex works and live to be happily married for decades. This is how it used to be.

As far as everything else, I guess you can look at it as an interview if you want, but I don't. Maybe another phrase would be better, like 'dating and getting to know each other'.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> So the first time you had sex with your wife, then your GF, it was an audition of sorts? To check the chemistry and ensure her boundaries were within your idea of must haves?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...


Yes indeed! I really love my H dearly but anal is not happening and he is fine with that. I LOVE blowing him to completion and swallowing too but he never acts like he is entitled to it. 75 of the bj's he gets initiated by me and are stand alone because he is such an awesome husband and father. But I never feel like I "owe" It to him. Maybe that's how you're making her feel.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Where in the OP does it read she actively participated in having a **** in her ass? No where.
> 
> A drunken comment and a finger once does NOT mean she pulled a bait and switch nor does it mean she isn't holding up her end of the "marital contract" sexually speaking.
> 
> ...


My question wasn't specifically addressed to that situation.. 

Speaking generically. If a person engages in an activity, any activity be it camping, dancing, going to sporting events, out to eat, cleaning the house, going to work every day, being nice, listening to what the partner has to say... etc.

Is that person under no obligation to continue that activity after they are married?


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> That's a bit inflammatory, I think. He's only here discussing one issue, we know (at least, not from this thread, I don't think) nothing else about their relationship or his feelings about her in other aspects.


The last line of his post states that he never would have married her if she wouldn't do anal. How am I far off? Clearly he does not love her more than anal sex, he said it right there.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The things you wrote are not in comparison.

Being nice and taking a D up the butt are two different things.

I take it you've never had something up your butthole.

If a man felt entitled to my a$$, he could leave. Honestly. I'm pretty sure he's never had a dildo up his pooper. I'd also wonder why he was so infatuated with butt sex.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

jorgegene said:


> I don't think it's an interview as far as sex goes. Many people find out on their wedding night what type of sex works and live to be happily married for decades. This is how it used to be.
> 
> As far as everything else, I guess you can look at it as an interview if you want, but I don't. Maybe another phrase would be better, like 'dating and getting to know each other'.


yea, its more of a try out like when your trying to make the team.


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

that_girl said:


> Or Bjs (he wasn't into them. Wtf? iknowright? )


My hubby finds bjs boring! For the longest time I thought I just wasn't good at them so I did all sorts of research, read books, trying to figure out how to get better. He was finally like "baby, you are perfectly good at it, it's just not my thing. Don't waste time on this while you are taking trig."

I realized I was doing the same thing to him that women complain about. I was not trusting him in terms of his desires, basically doing the "if you don't like it you haven't had it right" like so many people do to asexuals. So I got with the program.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

hambone said:


> So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> Just because a person does something all the time when you're dating.. they are under no obligation to continue to do it once they are married?


That is absolutely correct. They are not. Well I don't know if I would include PIV in that but the word "obligated" is bothering me. If you handle your business with your wife she most likely will not take any thing off the table without a good reason.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Some women love anal sex, and some men really want to do it. If there's a mismatch in sexual agendas, then they're not sexually compatible. Not that it or they are right or wrong or good or bad - just incompatible. OP thought he'd determined this, but never actually asked or established this - he ASSumed!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

If I ever felt obligated, I'd resent it.

I clean and cook and do all the things I do because it's how I give to my family. If it was obligated or expected or made known that it was MY JOB and blah blah...and no thanks were given, well, I'd stop.

Same goes for sex. Making love is supposed to be pleasurable, mentally and physically. If I felt pressured to do something that I once enjoyed but now I don't (for whatever reason), then I'd not be that into sex. 

Outside the bedroom, things have to be done. That's a given. We both work and both do things to benefit the home. Inside the bedroom, there's something called communication and respect. Someone may love something, then not like it, then like it again...and that's ok.

I think a lot of time, men don't get it because they are not the one taking someone's body into their own. They are not the one's being effed. I have been with a woman and I know what it's like to be the one to give, it's incredible. But to always be the taker is something a man will never understand.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

committed4ever said:


> That is absolutely correct. They are not. Well I don't know if I would include PIV in that but the word "obligated" is bothering me. If you handle your business with your wife she most likely will not take any thing off the table without a good reason.


yuck and double yuck!!!

manuplition through sex. 

and if she does right by her husband he would't with hold emotional affection


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I sex is given out of love and wanting the other person to feel good, I don't see the problem.

If one thing is off the table but everything else is a go, I don't see the problem.

If a spouse loves having sex with their mate EXCEPT for having something shoved up the pooper, I don't see the problem.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Cleancut said:


> When my wife got drunk once (prior to marriage) and told her brother "I LOVE it in the ass" I knew I had the right girl.
> 4 years later, I find myself married to a woman who's trelling me "it hurts too much".....


If this is a deal breaker for you, then what other option is there than D ?

You can't force her to do it.

Did you specifically tell her this before you married that you expected anal sex as a regular part of your marriage and that you would leave if she didn't comply ?

If she was drunk when she said that, maybe she didn't really mean it ?


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

CluelessWif said:


> I realized I was doing the same thing to him that women complain about. I was not trusting him in terms of his desires, basically doing the "if you don't like it you haven't had it right" like so many people do to asexuals. So I got with the program.


QFT

Exactly the same thing so many do to women who don't care to be on the receiving end (double entendre intended) of anal.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

CluelessWif said:


> The last line of his post states that he never would have married her if she wouldn't do anal. How am I far off? Clearly he does not love her more than anal sex, he said it right there.


I feel like you're drawing a far too drastic conclusion. There are "things I consider important in a marital relationship that works for me" and "things I love more than you."


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And anal does hurt after a while. 

Once a month was good. More than that, no.

A few minutes was good. Too long? no.

It's her body! Let her eff you up the butt, OP. Then see how it feels.

My H won't let me NEAR his rear. So...I don't see how it's remotely fair that it's too gross for HIS body, but not mine. Stop it. (taking out the fact that after my ordeal it will never happen again anyway).


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> My question wasn't specifically addressed to that situation..
> 
> Speaking generically. If a person engages in an activity, any activity be it camping, dancing, going to sporting events, out to eat, cleaning the house, going to work every day, being nice, listening to what the partner has to say... etc.
> 
> Is that person under no obligation to continue that activity after they are married?


I don't know if they are obligated to continue having the same interests year after year such as dancing,camping,and going to sporting events. People change. 

Cleaning the house and going to work every day is a human obligation unless you're medically unable. 

Being nice and listening to what your partner has to say is definitely necessary in relationships and I feel people are obligated to give their partner that at least. 

None of these things are anal sex though. Anal is one of those things the man wants the woman to do but he won't take one up his ass and rave about the pleasure like he wants her to do. 

It's probably one of the only things other than threesomes and swinging that I say no one should be obligated to put their body through for another person.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> If I ever felt obligated, I'd resent it.
> 
> I clean and cook and do all the things I do because it's how I give to my family. If it was obligated or expected or made known that it was MY JOB and blah blah...and no thanks were given, well, I'd stop.
> 
> ...


I kinda feel that way when it comes to finances when I feel like its expected for me to be the bread winner while she dosen't pull her fair share


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> Meh.
> 
> I partied a LOT when we were dating. I suppose I was under an implied contract to party-hardy now that we're older and have two kids in our charge because I did so when we were in the earlier stages of dating.
> 
> People change. I highly doubt OP is the romantic, emotionally available, communicative spouse that he was when he was trying to date her and gauge her receptiveness to having fingers in her bum.


Yes,, people change over time.

That is not what I'm talking about..

Suppose I had a good 6 figure job... And I took you out to the fanciest restaurants every evening. I bought you wonder gifts. and, I was a GREAT listener who took great interest in your life. And just LOVED your kids.

We get married, I quit the job,.. become a slob and tell you your kids cannot live with us..

Since you failed to specifically ask me about that stuff... I guess you're stuck huh?


I am a firm believer that people should be themselves. Let a person fall into love with the real you! Do not engage in activities (bedroom and otherwise) that you have no intention of continuing once you're married.

When you do engage in activities you don't like...and smile and act like you like them, you create unrealistic expectations. And IMO, that is going to lead to dissatisfaction and more than likely, divorce.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

askari said:


> You cannot 'agree' to get married but say; 'Right...I am not prepared to look after you when you are ill because I might catch the flu from you....and I am only prepared to have sex with you once a month. But I am quite happy to share your salary with you, what is yours is mine and what is mine is mine'.


I think you can get married and agree to whatever you want. The point is AGREEING to it. If OP never had a conversation with his gf now wife about it, then the expectation is unfounded. I honestly think there is nothing that one should expect without discussion from marriage or any other type of relationship. You have to make your expectations explicit. 

It is reasonable to assume that if someone truly likes a particular sex act NOW that they will continue to like it, barring any other impediments. But it's never a good idea to EXPECT it.

The question is, did she really ever like it or was she tolerating it for him? How does he know? Did she like the finger but not the penis? Is there something that has changed about her body that makes the act painful when it wasn't before?


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't know if they are obligated to continue having the same interests year after year such as dancing,camping,and going to sporting events. People change.
> 
> Cleaning the house and going to work every day is a human obligation unless you're medically unable.
> 
> ...


You are still missing the point. This is NOT solely about anal sex. There is a broader issue... It is the creation of unrealistic expectations. When you do things you don't like... and smile your way through it you are going to create expectations in your mate. 

Why wouldn't your partner think you liked activities that you did with a smile?

If something is going to be a deal breaker.. let it be a deal breaker before you get married.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I kinda feel that way when it comes to finances when I feel like its expected for me to be the bread winner while she dosen't pull her fair share


That makes total sense.

I wouldn't know, as I work and bring home just as much or more than my husband. We split household bills and we like the setup.

But "pulling her fair share" meaning....what?

If a woman stays home, and does nothing but the husband pays the bills and comes home to a messy house, things undone, kids a mess, then yes...I can see that being a deal breaker. NO ONE wants to feel unappreciated or used. Just as I had a big talk with my husband about our "days off". Mine are weekends...which are full of kids and errands and cleaning. He gets Sundays off (family day) but his other day would be a random work day for me and I'd come home to a messy house, nothing done--- while he did what he wanted all day. That's not cutting it for me. Take care of your sh1t and then play.

But if a woman stays home and rocks it and runs that house like a ship, then isn't that pulling her share?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

hambone said:


> You are still missing the point. This is NOT solely about anal sex. There is a broader issue... It is the creation of unrealistic expectations. When you do things you don't like... and smile your way through it you are going to create expectations in your mate.
> 
> Why wouldn't your partner think you liked activities that you did with a smile?


You're not getting the point. People change. Likes change.

That's where communication and understanding come in.

Sexual pleasures change too. Before marriage, before baby, my nipples were WOOO!!! GAME ON! I could orgasm from nipple stimulation alone. He's a boob guy. After nursing, my nipples not only had NO sensation, but they HURT when touched. I had to talk to him about this. It was a turn off now to have my nipples touched. Like fingernails on the the chalkboard.

That lasted four years of NO nipple touching. Now, they are back in full swing. I can't explain it, I just know that for MY BODY, this was what was up. If he couldn't have respected that, sex would have stopped because it would have been me feeling disrespected and the pain alone would make me just tell him to get off of me.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> You are still missing the point. This is NOT solely about anal sex. There is a broader issue... It is the creation of unrealistic expectations. When you do things you don't like... and smile your way through it you are going to create expectations in your mate.
> 
> Why wouldn't your partner think you liked activities that you did with a smile?



This is where I think you're not understanding what's being said here. 

No one said it's ok to act like you enjoy something when you don't. So the point you're trying to make really doesn't need to be made...no one is disputing the necessity of being real at all times. 

That's not what the OP is about...it's not about a true bait and switch. It's about him hearing a drunken comment then sticking his finger in the woman's ass and assuming she's hot for anal. 

If he comes back and says he DID in fact bang her ass and she feigned enjoyment prior to marriage but now says it hurts,I would wonder two things: 1.Did she really enjoy it during dating? 2.Is it an anatomical issue stemming from body changes?


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

hambone said:


> Yes,, people change over time.
> 
> That is not what I'm talking about..
> 
> ...


You make a good point - to a point. The thing is...when guys are courting women they do take them out to fancy restaurants and listen attentively and then when they get married the fancy restaurants and listening go out the window. You are a different person when you're dating and after you get married because when you're dating you are trying to win the person you're dating by being on your best behavior. Now that you've won them...you can be yourself. Right?  

I'm not saying that's awesome. It feels like a bait and switch to us too...but to me the lesson is don't ever expect anything. Say it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

hambone said:


> Yes,, people change over time.
> 
> That is not what I'm talking about..
> 
> ...


What if you lost your job because of budget cuts. You all had to move from your nice home into an apartment. You couldn't do nights out every night (lol this wouldn't even appeal to me while dating)....should the wife just get up and go? "See ya, you loser!" No. But many do. It's wrong. Money can be gone in an instance. People better love the person, not the money.

This guy can divorce. That's his choice. But he'll again learn that through life, people change.

Just like with sexual pleasure, somethings you once loved could not feel good. It's of no control to you, it just happens.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> yuck and double yuck!!!
> 
> manuplition through sex.
> 
> and if she does right by her husband he would't with hold emotional affection


I don't look at it that way at all. I do not manipulate my H in any way shape or form. I'm just saying treat each other with love and respect and taking stuff off the table won't happen for no reason.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

that_girl said:


> You're not getting the point. People change. Likes change.


Ok, my philosphical side here: isn't this a real paradox of marriage? And I can't seem to reconcile it in my head. Is it fair to say that, dating before marriage is, essentially, a search to find someone "compatible" - shares your interests, likes, etc..., or is maybe a balance/opposite to yours (that's another great discussion)? The point is, we're seeking out someone with a specific set of characteristics, hoping...guessing, really....that it will lead to a symbiotic relationship for years and years to come. But then we just say, "yeah...but people change, and likes change....you'll just have to figure it out."

I am not begruding people their right to change - hell, I am more than aware of my own changes. Like the OP, though, I just struggle and empathize with the idea that, someone may have relied upon a person having certain characteristics. Then, they change, and - as sympathetically as it may be put - the response is simply, "oh, well....deal with it."


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

that_girl said:


> You're not getting the point. People change. Likes change.
> 
> That's where communication and understanding come in.
> 
> ...



This is not about change. 


This is about doing things you didn't like in the first place... Doing them while you're dating... smiling you're way through and then, once you're married, "I'm not doing that any more... I never liked it in the first place! I just did it to please you cause I knew you liked it."

And per a poster... unless you specifically discussed it, you mate is under no obligation to continue.

I disagree. Bait and switch is not ok..

If something is a deal breaker.. let it be a deal breaker before you get married.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It depends on the timing of the change.

Wedding night? Probably bait and switch.

5-10 years later? Probably true change.

I dated my H when I was 30. In that time, my body has had another baby, had surgery to remove a huge tumor that was growing off my ovary (ovary taken too), we've had our anal sex mishap. That's not even talking about our relationship issues. But the sexual things are discussed and worked out.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. I guess it's just not like me to smile my way through anything I can't stand  What you see is what you get.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Bait and switch is not ok. Not discussing your deal breakers prior to marriage is also not ok. If your spouse has no idea what your deal breakers are bc they weren't important enough to discuss prior to marriage,why are they under obligation to suddenly start doing it after marriage?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

committed4ever said:


> I don't look at it that way at all. I do not manipulate my H in any way shape or form. I'm just saying treat each other with love and respect and taking stuff off the table won't happen for no reason.


taking stuff off the table shouldn't happen without open honest comunication.

just stopping without talking about might sent the wrong message


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

that_girl said:


> What if you lost your job because of budget cuts. You all had to move from your nice home into an apartment. You couldn't do nights out every night (lol this wouldn't even appeal to me while dating)....should the wife just get up and go? "See ya, you loser!" No. But many do. It's wrong. Money can be gone in an instance. People better love the person, not the money.
> 
> This guy can divorce. That's his choice. But he'll again learn that through life, people change.
> 
> Just like with sexual pleasure, somethings you once loved could not feel good. It's of no control to you, it just happens.


The example I gave was a voluntary change. Losing your job due to downsizing is a change in circumstances beyond your control.



Do you think, if a partner does things they don't like before you're married, and convinces their mate that they do like them... and the mate believes he has found someone they are compatible with...

It is fair that once they are married, the person that went along and got along with a smile.. and did things that they did not enjoy... 

Have they not created unrealistic expectations in their mate?

I put that monkey squarely on the shoulders of the person that lied during the relationship. They created a lie.

Bottom line, be yourself. Let someone fall in love with you for who and what you really are!

Do not jump through hoops to get someone to marry you.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Bait and switch is not ok. Not discussing your deal breakers prior to marriage is also not ok. If your spouse has no idea what your deal breakers are bc they weren't important enough to discuss prior to marriage,why are they under obligation to suddenly start doing it after marriage?


You said bait and switch is not OK.

Let me give you a for instance. A guy loves to ball room dance. Every Saturday that rolls around, he takes you ball room dancing.. And gosh, you smile and smile and smile.. When he picks you up, you meet him at the door with bells on... You laugh and giggle all the time while you're dancing...

You get married.. and you tell him. I am NOT going ball room dancing ever again.. I HATE ballroom dancing!

I really don't get your hanging your whole case on having to specifically discussed something before hand or you have no expectation of that person continuing to enjoy, in this case, ballroom dancing!

Why is that not bait and switch?

When someone is smiling while they engage in an activity.. I assume the are enjoying what they are doing.. 

If someone continues to send out a false signal.. it's my fault for not detecting the lie?

Put that monkey on the back of the person it belongs on... the liar.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> You said bait and switch is not OK.
> 
> Let me give you a for instance. A guy loves to ball room dance. Every Saturday that rolls around, he takes you ball room dancing.. And gosh, you smile and smile and smile.. When he picks you up, you meet him at the door with bells on... You laugh and giggle all the time while you're dancing...
> 
> ...


Didn't I also say in another post that pretending you like something when you don't isn't ok? Why are you continuing to argue something no one is disputing? It's odd.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:rofl: I dated all wrong then!!

But I'm not one for "fancy", especially at that time.

I will say, that although I love camping, at this point in my life, I'm not as rugged as I was. I don't need an RV, but an air mattress and a camp stove and other things like that would make things better. ...or I just won't go. No more "sleep under the stars on the ground and wake up sore and exhausted because you didn't sleep all night" for me. If that's a deal break for my husband, then adios.


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> I feel like you're drawing a far too drastic conclusion. There are "things I consider important in a marital relationship that works for me" and "things I love more than you."


I don't buy it. He clearly stated that:

1. Anal sex causes her physical pain.
2. He expects her to do it anyway to please him.

Which to me comes across as caring more about his desires than her.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is where I think you're not understanding what's being said here.
> 
> *No one said it's ok to act like you enjoy something when you don't. So the point you're trying to make really doesn't need to be made...no one is disputing the necessity of being real at all times. *
> 
> ...





hambone said:


> You said bait and switch is not OK.
> 
> Let me give you a for instance. A guy loves to ball room dance. Every Saturday that rolls around, he takes you ball room dancing.. And gosh, you smile and smile and smile.. When he picks you up, you meet him at the door with bells on... You laugh and giggle all the time while you're dancing...
> 
> ...


Here is what I said about faking like you enjoy something when you don't.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Didn't I also say in another post that pretending you like something when you don't isn't ok? Why are you continuing to argue something no one is disputing? It's odd.


Because you posted, "Unless you outright spoke to her about your expectations then you have no leg to stand upon here."


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Most people dreaded getting their temperature taking rectally as a kid.

Men (especially) are very embarrassed about visiting the proctologist and being medically "fingered".

Most men are terrified of the thought of being incarcerated and being anally raped.

But women are now supposed to be A-ok with risking having their anal-rectal area pounded and stretched and torn. And women have thinner tissues in their body usually.

Anal sex is possible for non-porn star people if you go slowly, use as much lubricant as needed, and stop if your spouse is in any pain at all.

That said, I have read that the anus is designed to eliminate, not receive. It is designed to only open naturally from internal signals.

Like that_girl said in one of her posts; sex is supposed to feel good, right?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> Because you posted, "Unless you outright spoke to her about your expectations then you have no leg to stand upon here."


I still feel that way about deal breakers though. While I don't agree with pretending to enjoy things you don't enjoy,I also feel it's the obligation of the person with the specific need to address it before marriage.

My Dh really enjoys smoking weed. He told me this while we were dating and said he can't be with someone who wasn't ok with his weed usage unless it affected his job or life negatively. 

I'm fine with it and told him so prior to marriage. 

We're married now and I haven't changed my mind on being ok w/his weed smoking. 

That's an example of presenting your deal breakers openly bc it's important. 

Now if DH hadn't told me dislike of weed was a dealbreaker for him and I demanded to have him stop after we got married then we're both sort of at fault there. Me for acting like it was ok while dating and him for not telling me it was a dealbreaker for him. 

If you LOOOOOVE ballroom dancing before marriage and you think your partner LOOOOOVES it too bc they're acting like they do,it still is wise to say "hey I really hope we can do this for the rest of our lives bc it's so enjoyable for me.How about you?"


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> "hey I really hope we can do this for the rest of our lives bc it's so enjoyable for me.How about you?"


This.

When my husband and I started dating he always said he would never have kids. When we had been together two years I sat him down and told him that being a mother was something I had always and will always want. Very much a deal breaker. If he really didn't want kids we should break up, no hard feelings.

At which point he informed me that he never wanted kids because he never wanted to get married, and that I had changed his mind about many things, children being one of them.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

CluelessWif said:


> I don't buy it. He clearly stated that:
> 
> 1. Anal sex causes her physical pain.
> 2. He expects her to do it anyway to please him.
> ...


You should be careful about what you claim he "clearly" stated. #1 is true, he said she is saying it hurts now. #2 is NOT true. He never said he expected her to just contineu to endure physical pain for his pleasure. If anything, the fact that she is saying it hurts now, has led him to conclude that it will NO LONGER occur, which is why he's conflicted, and feeling "baited and switched."


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> You should be careful about what you claim he "clearly" stated. #1 is true, he said she is saying it hurts now. #2 is NOT true. He never said he expected her to just contineu to endure physical pain for his pleasure. If anything, the fact that she is saying it hurts now, has led him to conclude that it will NO LONGER occur, which is why he's conflicted, and feeling "baited and switched."


He stated that he was here looking for advice on how to explain to his wife that he wouldn't have married her if she wouldn't have anal sex with him......

If he doesn't value anal sex more than her, has no intention of demanding she perform it or D, then why would he need to tell her this? I say clearly because that is logic. Unless he just wants to use this to emotionally abuse her? I can't see another need for this conversation.

She doesn't like it. It causes her pain. So he either needs to file for D or get over it.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

CluelessWif said:


> He stated that he was here looking for advice on how to explain to his wife that he wouldn't have married her if she wouldn't have anal sex with him......
> 
> If he doesn't value anal sex more than her, has no intention of demanding she perform it or D, then why would he need to tell her this? I say clearly because that is logic. Unless he just wants to use this to emotionally abuse her? I can't see another need for this conversation.
> 
> She doesn't like it. It causes her pain. So he either needs to file for D or get over it.


Aside: I find it strange, that some discussions put such a stigma on divorce, and others, it gets thrown around like, "geez, just file for a divorce already," and I can't seem to relate those differences to the actual subject matter. I.e., in this case, it seems awfully quick to say, "if she won't do anal, just divorce her," as a possibility. Anyways...I digress..

I think we're closer to agreeing, but to me, it still seems like he's interested in gathering perspectives to help him have the conversation with his wife, and "take the temperature" of something like this. "This" being, something that used to be done, and enjoyed, it seems, and was important to me, and now has shifted to something not part of their sex life (for a valid reason, but still...). He's showing that he has not immediately assigned this more importance than his wife/marriage, but important enough that he'd like to have a meaningful conversation about why/how it became off limits (I know, the pain is the reason, but I, for one, would empathize, not understanding how it didn't hurt before but now does).

On a more general level, I think he also wants to know - and there may be 1% of this, or 90% of this - what's a reasonable expectation? Look, if she's in dire pain from anal now, this part may be moot, but I still hear his tone of inquisitiveness about this aspect, and I'll use the BJ example. Guy dates girl, BJ's are a-plenty; guy marries girl, BJ's go away, girl says, "I don't do that anymore." Guy is left to wonder, "gee....thought I was test-driving the actual model I was buying....what happened? I had the leather seats, navigation and 400-hp engine; I signed on the dotted line, and you pull around with the pleather-trimmed 4-cylinder econobox."


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Dating is a sex contract. Marriage is burial insurance.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I wish there was a way to branch a topic off of a topic. Of course it would never end.
After 25 years we sat down last weekend ad came to a verbal agreement about a sexual topic. That is as closest to a contract as I have seen.  I offered to put it in writing, she declined. I'm pretty sure what we have is a temporary agreement. I wonder if it will last 6 months.
MN


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> Aside: I find it strange, that some discussions put such a stigma on divorce, and others, it gets thrown around like, "geez, just file for a divorce already," and I can't seem to relate those differences to the actual subject matter. I.e., in this case, it seems awfully quick to say, "if she won't do anal, just divorce her," as a possibility. Anyways...I digress..


This is not just throwing it around. He stated that he wouldn't have married her in this situation, and he is not willing to let it be. I really don't see more than two options: get over it or move on to someone who likes it.



changedbeliefs said:


> I think we're closer to agreeing, but to me, it still seems like he's interested in gathering perspectives to help him have the conversation with his wife, and "take the temperature" of something like this. "This" being, something that used to be done, and enjoyed, it seems, and was important to me, and now has shifted to something not part of their sex life (for a valid reason, but still...). He's showing that he has not immediately assigned this more importance than his wife/marriage, but important enough that he'd like to have a meaningful conversation about why/how it became off limits (I know, the pain is the reason, but I, for one, would empathize, not understanding how it didn't hurt before but now does).


Then you do not understand the basics of aging and the human body. Tissue becomes less elastic and takes longer to heal. That is just the truth.



changedbeliefs said:


> On a more general level, I think he also wants to know - and there may be 1% of this, or 90% of this - what's a reasonable expectation? Look, if she's in dire pain from anal now, this part may be moot, but I still hear his tone of inquisitiveness about this aspect, and I'll use the BJ example. Guy dates girl, BJ's are a-plenty; guy marries girl, BJ's go away, girl says, "I don't do that anymore." Guy is left to wonder, "gee....thought I was test-driving the actual model I was buying....what happened? I had the leather seats, navigation and 400-hp engine; I signed on the dotted line, and you pull around with the pleather-trimmed 4-cylinder econobox."


I don't know what to say. A woman(who is not an object btw, the analogy is disrespectful) does not become worth significantly less because she won't do a specific sex act. Relating her worth as a human being to whether or not she will perform a sex act is the lowest kind of objectification. 

And a point: not once does he say he is in love with her, that her thoughts and feelings are important, or even that he gives a damn about her as a person. This is all about HIS wants, HIS desires, nothing about her being a human being with more worth than butt sex. She deserves better.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hambone said:


> So, let me see if I understand.
> 
> Just because a person does something all the time when you're dating.. they are under no obligation to continue to do it once they are married?


Who really wants obligation sex? That's just nasty.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

CluelessWif: you are taking each of my statements and trying to punctuate each one with a conclusion that it seems you feel I should already be reaching (i.e., your clear, concise reason for why this act is painful, which reason forces me to say, I'm sure that is maybe sometimes true, you have no idea if it is definitely the case here). I am only trying to clarify the issues and empathize with the OP. Further, you're taking my analogies - which are admittedly, and usually by definition, more discrete, and purposefully less emotional and more objective - and making it out to seem as if I am minimizing (in this case) the wife's situation. I am not, literally, comparing the wife to an automobile, or claiming she is an inanimate object with the sole purpose of her husband's sexual usage, and I did not claim her personal WORTH depended on a single sex act.

We are discussing a very specific situation here, and you are extrapolating. "Penalizing" the OP because he has not specifically said "he loves her" in this thread, is cherry-picking. This thread isn't the singular place for him to express his thoughts and feelings on the entirety of his marriage.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hambone said:


> My question wasn't specifically addressed to that situation..
> 
> Speaking generically. If a person engages in an activity, any activity be it camping, dancing, going to sporting events, out to eat, cleaning the house, going to work every day, being nice, listening to what the partner has to say... etc.
> 
> Is that person under no obligation to continue that activity after they are married?


Nope. Not at all. We each get to decide for ourselves what we like and have the right to change our minds. I sure would not want to be with someone who felt I ought to be OBLIGATED to do things that I did not want!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

CluelessWif said:


> A woman(who is not an object btw, the analogy is disrespectful) does not become worth significantly less because she won't do a specific sex act. Relating her worth as a human being to whether or not she will perform a sex act is the lowest kind of objectification.


I disagree. If we'd established our sexual preferences and boundaries, and they suddenly changed without a very good reason, she would become a less compatible partner, and it may no longer be appropriate to continue the relationship. She is not worth less as a person, of course, but she's no longer a good partner.

If you keep everything you said here, and now it's a man who ceases providing oral sex for her (for example), then that would be perfectly okay by your views? Would she be justified if she broke up over this, or would that just be the lowest kind of objectification?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So I guess "For better or worse" should be removed from the vows completely. I mean, if we can divorce over anal sex.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I've had people stop oral sex. It wasn't a deal breaker. I stopped oral for them as well 

But I'm married now and not getting oral sex any more wouldn't be a reason I would divorce. lol. Seriously.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I might, unless there was a medical reason. I lived too long in a sexless marriage to ever again tolerate a relationship with poor sex.

Besides, our vows had only one statement: that we'll stay together as long as we both love each other. That means we can't afford to take each other for granted, and it's an ongoing choice we make to prioritize and preserve the relationship.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

hambone said:


> I am a firm believer that people should be themselves. Let a person fall into love with the real you! Do not engage in activities (bedroom and otherwise) that you have no intention of continuing once you're married.
> 
> When you do engage in activities you don't like...and smile and act like you like them, you create unrealistic expectations. And IMO, that is going to lead to dissatisfaction and more than likely, divorce.


I can't dispute that, then again, I don't think anyone on this thread disputes that.



changedbeliefs said:


> Ok, my philosphical side here: isn't this a real paradox of marriage? And I can't seem to reconcile it in my head. Is it fair to say that, dating before marriage is, essentially, a search to find someone "compatible" - shares your interests, likes, etc..., or is maybe a balance/opposite to yours (that's another great discussion)? The point is, we're seeking out someone with a specific set of characteristics, hoping...guessing, really....that it will lead to a symbiotic relationship for years and years to come. But then we just say, "yeah...but people change, and likes change....you'll just have to figure it out."
> 
> I am not begruding people their right to change - hell, I am more than aware of my own changes. Like the OP, though, I just struggle and empathize with the idea that, someone may have relied upon a person having certain characteristics. Then, they change, and - as sympathetically as it may be put - the response is simply, "oh, well....deal with it."


I think expecting people to remain the same - even if those characteristics were something that attracted you to a person are unrealistic. Sometimes people change and they're not pulling a bait and switch. My spouse is a hard-gainer, ectomorph body type. When we met though, he had at least twenty/thirty pounds of muscle on him that he doesn't now. 

A few years ago, he lost a TON of weight (he didn't need and wasn't trying to lose) and we later found out it's because he developed diabetes. He changed... he now has an even harder time gaining weight than he did before and is still not as big as he was when we met. I like tall 6ft+ muscular men 200-240 lbs so his physique is not anymore what I'm typically attracted to (although I am still attracted to _him_) but all I could do is "deal with it" or leave.... however I am not with him because of what he weighs or the size of his arms. C'est la vie.



ScarletBegonias said:


> Bait and switch is not ok. Not discussing your deal breakers prior to marriage is also not ok. If your spouse has no idea what your deal breakers are bc they weren't important enough to discuss prior to marriage,why are they under obligation to suddenly start doing it after marriage?


QFT



hambone said:


> Because you posted, "Unless you outright spoke to her about your expectations then you have no leg to stand upon here."


IMO, both hubs and wife are in the wrong. If he didn't speak to her but just made assumptions...well. There is a saying about the word assume - that when we do so, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

No, baiting and switching is not right. People should be authentic when trying to get to know someone. Still, can't argue that this was a bait and switch though. He said she let him stick his finger in there. Again, a finger's girth and length is much different (or at least one'd hope) from a penis. He also said that she loves it in the azz, not to him but to her brother (nosey lol) when DRUNK. 

That doesn't sound like she baited him. That sounds like he assumed that she liked anal because of drunken ramblings he wasn't supposed to be privy too and because he fingered her bum. If she didn't like anal, she should have told him. However, he is not off the hook either. Since it's something he feels is very important, he should have and could have communicated that need.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I disagree. If we'd established our sexual preferences and boundaries, and they suddenly changed without a very good reason, she would become a less compatible partner, and it may no longer be appropriate to continue the relationship. She is not worth less as a person, of course, but she's no longer a good partner.
> 
> If you keep everything you said here, and now it's a man who ceases providing oral sex for her (for example), then that would be perfectly okay by your views? Would she be justified if she broke up over this, or would that just be the lowest kind of objectification?


If my husband DID NOT WANT TO DO IT it would be right off the table. Why would I want someone I LOVE to be doing something that they don't like????


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> If my husband DID NOT WANT TO DO IT it would be right off the table. Why would I want someone I LOVE to be doing something that they don't like????


I wouldn't want someone I love to do something they don't like either. However, if they've been doing it and said they liked it, but changed immediately after marriage, then what? That's bait and switch, and deceptive. That would be the end of the relationship for me. If they'd been honest about it beforehand, I might not marry them given that knowledge, and rightly so IMO.

If it's a problem that develops over time, it's a gray area and the whole relationship quality would have to be considered in making the decision to stay or go.

The real question is where is the line that makes a change in behavior acceptable or not? That will differ for each person and relationship, and the reason or cause may be a factor in that decision.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Who really wants obligation sex? That's just nasty.



So, you are perfectly OK with someone being dishonest with you long enough to get you to say, "I Do"?

You are perfectly OK with bait and switch?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hambone said:


> So, you are perfectly OK with someone being dishonest with you long enough to get you to say, "I Do"?
> 
> You are perfectly OK with bait and switch?


Nope. Not sure what that has the slightest to do with my comment about obligation.

So you think you don't like pizza? Does that mean it is ok to eat pasta?? What?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

It's not a contract per say for me. I would agree that hubby and wifee are to take care of each others needs as their own and they aren't their own anymore. So if she has a higher sex drive, he takes care of her needs. If he has more non sexual needs, she is to take care of them as well. It's never if you do this or that, you might get sex later.......better to be single because that's not love. If the sex was hot and adventurous during dating, it must be the same after getting married and as the years progress, otherwise, bait and switch and its deceptive. If she liked anal sex with her last BF, met a new guy and got married but no anal sex, no cool. Her experiences with anal sex should be added to their new marriage. And if he loved giving oral to his last GF, mind blowing orgasms, and won't for his wifee, not cool. His experiences in oral sex should be added and for his wifee. Always push the boundaries a bit and go out of your ways to please each other, out of love and not duty.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Just try it once, guys. Then you'll understand why it's not all the great for most women. It wasn't my idea to try it, I'll tell you that much. It's a butthole. So, just try it, men. If it's good enough for your woman, it's good enough for you.


I'm old enough that I get an annual prostate exam. Aggressive prostate cancer runs in my familly, so I started early with the PSA and the digital exam.

The finger up the butt is not at all pleasurable. I've had it done by male and by female docs, too. Prostate massage to me just feels like I have to pee really really badly, right now. I don't see anything pleasurable in being the receiver.

And as to being the giver, the last place I want my private parts is inside someone else's colon touching their poop. What's sexy about that?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

This is why I never asked nor cared about my mate's past. lol Not my business.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

^^ I feel bad for a lot of these men's wives!


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I can't dispute that, then again, I don't think anyone on this thread disputes that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I disagree... it is not OK in my book to live a lie... long enough to get someone to marry you.

If you don't intend to do something with your partner after you marry them... don't do it with them... and give them the impression that you enjoy it... before you marry them..

This idea of having to specifically discuss and item before marriage is .. well, why don't we raise the threshold to having a notarized statement with two witnesses and on file with the clerk of courts?


Don't be dishonest with a prospective mate. Do not give them false signals... don't act like you enjoy an activity if you don't.

Do both of you a favor, be HONEST! Don't live a lie. No body likes to be lied to.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> I'm old enough that I get an annual prostate exam. Aggressive prostate cancer runs in my familly, so I started early with the PSA and the digital exam.
> 
> The finger up the butt is not at all pleasurable. I've had it done by male and by female docs, too. Prostate massage to me just feels like I have to pee really really badly, right now. I don't see anything pleasurable in being the receiver.
> 
> And as to being the giver, the last place I want my private parts is inside someone else's colon touching their poop. What's sexy about that?



lol.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

CluelessWif said:


> I don't know what to say. A woman(who is not an object btw, the analogy is disrespectful) does not become worth significantly less because she won't do a specific sex act. Relating her worth as a human being to whether or not she will perform a sex act is the lowest kind of objectification.
> 
> .


Hmmm.... kinda akin to his worth as a human being becoming only the divorce settlement he can give. I think THAT is the lowest form of objectification. 

If marriage comes with promises to women of money if the marriage goes south, what are the privileges men get with marriage?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So men, bring your ladies flowers just as much as when dating. Text her and call her often from work. Always look and smell good. Always listen to her when she talks. Always tell her she's hot. Always open the door for her. Never argue, and if you do, don't forget to get over it quickly. Oh and don't stop going to those places (usually cultural because she likes them) on weekends when you'd rather be watching the game. Always. Never stop. If you do, it's bait and switch.

I don't think people understand that life changes you. Sensations change. Situations change.

We have only heard his side.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Nope. Not sure what that has the slightest to do with my comment about obligation.
> 
> So you think you don't like pizza? Does that mean it is ok to eat pasta?? What?


Don't create false expectations in the first place and everything will be ok. Be honest, don't live a lie.


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## soulseer (Jul 26, 2013)

that_girl said:


> So men, bring your ladies flowers just as much as when dating. Text her and call her often from work. Always look and smell good. Always listen to her when she talks. Always tell her she's hot. Always open the door for her. Never argue, and if you do, don't forget to get over it quickly. Oh and don't stop going to those places (usually cultural because she likes them) on weekends when you'd rather be watching the game. Always. Never stop. If you do, it's bait and switch.
> 
> I don't think people understand that life changes you. Sensations change. Situations change.
> 
> We have only heard his side.


lol. 

Yeah I think people do change. Yes its important to verbally verify what your partners likes and dislikes are before you marry . 

Once you are married you should be prepared to grow with them and adapt to their needs just as they adapt to yours.

We change. I have changed in many ways both physically and emotionally since I met my wife. I hope she continues to give me room to grow. 

It's only fair to listen to each others needs and assist where possible and expect your partner to be reasonable if you are unable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I‘d like to know where in my post did I encourage people to live a lie?

Oh that‘s right, I didn‘t.

Are you saying you disagree with people expressing their needs, values, expectations to their mates when dating? It‘s okay if you are but I don‘t agree with THAT.


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## CluelessWif (Jun 20, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> Aside: Guy dates girl, BJ's are a-plenty; guy marries girl, BJ's go away, girl says, "I don't do that anymore." Guy is left to wonder, "gee....thought I was test-driving the actual model I was buying....what happened? I had the leather seats, navigation and 400-hp engine; I signed on the dotted line, and you pull around with the pleather-trimmed 4-cylinder econobox."


Do you not see what you did here?

When she was dating him, she gave him blow jobs and was the fully loaded model



changedbeliefs said:


> the leather seats, navigation and 400-hp engine;


but when she stops giving blow jobs she is 



changedbeliefs said:


> the pleather-trimmed 4-cylinder econobox."


If that is not what you meant, the analogy is incorrect. But as it sits it equates a woman's worth with the sex act she will perform.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hambone said:


> Don't create false expectations in the first place and everything will be ok. Be honest, don't live a lie.


We have exactly zero reason to suspect that is the case here. I would hate to be in a marriage where my changing my mind because something HURT was viewed as creating false expectations and a bait and switch. That is just mean. And my good will would go right out the window.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I‘d like to know where in my post did I encourage people to live a lie?
> 
> Oh that‘s right, I didn‘t.
> 
> Are you saying you disagree with people expressing their needs, values, expectations to their mates when dating? It‘s okay if you are but I don‘t agree with THAT.


Living a lie means willingly engaging in activities that you don't enjoy and doing it with enthusiasm and never expressing to your partner that you really don't like the activities. That is living a lie and those that do it aren't being fair to their partners nor themselves.

Couples need to talk about things before they get married. 

If your excuse is... I can discontinue this activity.. that I never enjoyed in the first place.. and feel no obligation because YOU failed to ask me if I would continue the activity once we were married! 



If you don't like an activity perhaps, rather misleading your prospective mate by acting like you like it.. IMO, it is incumbent upon YOU to be honest and tell your partner that you really don't like doing it..


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hambone said:


> My question wasn't specifically addressed to that situation..
> 
> Speaking generically. If a person engages in an activity, any activity be it camping, dancing, going to sporting events, out to eat, cleaning the house, going to work every day, being nice, listening to what the partner has to say... etc.
> 
> Is that person under no obligation to continue that activity after they are married?


In general, most people would expect that the person they marry will do the same or similar things before and after marriage.

However people change. My ex and I used to dance... a lot. We even did competition dance. After we married he refused to do it again. I have no idea why except that he said he was too busy. It meant a lot, A LOT, to me but he just refused. Is this enough to end a marriage over? People change, the things they like and do change. Their health changes. In a healthy marriage people accept that both partners will change from time to time. They communicate and negotiate through those changes to redefine their relationship... little by little over time.

The topic of the OP specifically addresses two things.

The OP had a covert contract...meaning that only he knew that he expected anal sex. Thus it's not a contract at all.

Secondly this brings up the issue of health. Anal sex hurts his wife. Anal sex can seriously harm a the recipient. No one has the right to insist that anyone do something that hurts and/or harms them.

Since the OP had no contract/agreement of any kind with his wife about anal sex, him using the idea that she's in breach of contact is a smoke screen to the real issue. The real issue is that he wants anal sex and he does not care if it harms/hurts his wife.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> We have exactly zero reason to suspect that is the case here. I would hate to be in a marriage where my changing my mind because something HURT was viewed as creating false expectations and a bait and switch. That is just mean. And my good will would go right out the window.


I agree... if you don't like it for whatever reason.. Just be honest from the get go and everything will be fine.

It's not a false impression if you tell you partner, "that hurt.. I didn't enjoy it and I don't want to do it again!"

Fair enough. You've been honest. 


However, if you continue the activity... and don't deliver the message until after you're married... 

is that still OK? Not in my book.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It may not have HURT in the beginning. Now it does.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hambone said:


> I agree... if you don't like it for whatever reason.. Just be honest from the get go and everything will be fine.
> 
> It's not a false impression if you tell you partner, "that hurt.. I didn't enjoy it and I don't want to do it again!"
> 
> ...


What if your opinion CHANGES?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

changedbeliefs said:


> Ok, my philosphical side here: isn't this a real paradox of marriage? And I can't seem to reconcile it in my head. Is it fair to say that, dating before marriage is, essentially, a search to find someone "compatible" - shares your interests, likes, etc..., or is maybe a balance/opposite to yours (that's another great discussion)? The point is, we're seeking out someone with a specific set of characteristics, hoping...guessing, really....that it will lead to a symbiotic relationship for years and years to come. But then we just say, "yeah...but people change, and likes change....you'll just have to figure it out."
> 
> I am not begruding people their right to change - hell, I am more than aware of my own changes. Like the OP, though, I just struggle and empathize with the idea that, someone may have relied upon a person having certain characteristics. Then, they change, and - as sympathetically as it may be put - the response is simply, "oh, well....deal with it."


You are trying to have a very general discussion about people changing after marriage. 

The OP is not about a general question. It's about a man whose never promised him anything about anal sex. He only made assumptions.

It's also about the very real fact that anal can hurt and that's what his wife experiences. So it's completely unreasonable for him to expect her to have anal sex with him.

Now if he wants anal sex he can leave her. If it's more important to him than she is, it's best that he divorces her. But she made no promises and did not change after marriage.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Seem petty to me that we are arguing about anal and Bjs.

Most of us here just want a sexual relationship. The bait and switch isn't about bjs or anal going away. It is about intimacy, affection and sex (of most any kind) going away.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> What if your opinion CHANGES?


NOT allowed.
No way.

Never.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I'd rather have a man divorce me over anal sex so I wouldn't have to hear him whining and crying about doing me in the butthole.

I'm sure he isn't so eager to take it up the poop shoot himself.

Honestly. Get a grip.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

hambone said:


> Living a lie means willingly engaging in activities that you don't enjoy and doing it with enthusiasm and never expressing to your partner that you really don't like the activities. That is living a lie and those that do it aren't being fair to their partners nor themselves.
> 
> Couples need to talk about things before they get married.
> 
> ...


And AGAIN, I never agreed with someone doing the 'ol bait and switch, or your words "living a lie". 

Where we disagree is that people shouldn't be responsible for expressing their needs. People do all sorts of things when they're dating that don't carry into marriage. I think making assumptions about someone is just as potentially damaging as portraying to be something/someone you are not. If something is important to you, tell your mate. Don't assume it's important to them too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hambone said:


> Because you posted, "Unless you outright spoke to her about your expectations then you have no leg to stand upon here."


The OP never had anal sex with his wife before they married.

The OP never discussed that anal sex is a deal breaker for him.

She did not pretend to like it before marriage. She did nothing to lead him to believe that she would agree to a life time of anal sex.

Plus there is the reality that anal sex can hurt and can be harmful. If, after having it over some period of time, she finds that it hurts her (or she was injured by it) then she is not obligated to have anal sex under any circumstance.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, if they never had it and never talked about it, I don't know why he feels entitled to her butthole.

Rude. Just because a woman has a hole, doesn't mean your d1ck has to go in it.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

CluelessWif said:


> This.
> 
> When my husband and I started dating he always said he would never have kids. When we had been together two years I sat him down and told him that being a mother was something I had always and will always want. Very much a deal breaker. If he really didn't want kids we should break up, no hard feelings.
> 
> At which point he informed me that he never wanted kids because he never wanted to get married, and that I had changed his mind about many things, children being one of them.


Interesting. 

I NEVER wanted to have kids if I was being honest. That is, UNTIL I got pregnant with them.

Talk about changing! Now I love kids. It'd be a shame if my spouse was with me on the basis of how I really felt in the past about not having children because now we have two of them.... down the road I might want a 3rd.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> What if your opinion CHANGES?



If I've been married to my wife for 20+ years and she says, "Honey, it's starting to hurt... I don't think I'm going to be able to do this much longer!" and that progresses to. "Honey, I just can't do it... it hurts". Yeah. I love my wife too much to inflict pain on her..


Now, if we going at it like drunk monkey's before we're married and she's always been enthusiastic about it... We get married and she says, "I'm not doing that any more.. I never liked it and I'm not doing it any more!"

Is the technicality that I didn't specifically ask her if she would continue to engage in such activities after marriage, IMO, is wrong. She was living a lie, doing things she didn't like to begin with.

Is that fair?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

changedbeliefs said:


> Aside: I find it strange, that some discussions put such a stigma on divorce, and others, it gets thrown around like, "geez, just file for a divorce already," and I can't seem to relate those differences to the actual subject matter. I.e., in this case, it seems awfully quick to say, "if she won't do anal, just divorce her," as a possibility. Anyways...I digress..
> 
> I think we're closer to agreeing, but to me, it still seems like he's interested in gathering perspectives to help him have the conversation with his wife, and "take the temperature" of something like this. "This" being, something that used to be done, and enjoyed, it seems, and was important to me, and now has shifted to something not part of their sex life (for a valid reason, but still...). He's showing that he has not immediately assigned this more importance than his wife/marriage, but important enough that he'd like to have a meaningful conversation about why/how it became off limits (I know, the pain is the reason, but I, for one, would empathize, not understanding how it didn't hurt before but now does).


Clearly you have not engage in anal sex as the recipient. Any man who wants a woman to give him anal sex should try it first enough times to have the entire experience.

The anus and rectum are not build to for sexual intercourse. They do not hold up well to the stretching and pounding. I will give to you what I think is a very clear example of why she might have even enjoyed it at first but now it hurts too much to have anal anymore.

When I was in my early 20’s I enjoyed having anal sex several times with my then husband. I was one of the most intensely pleasurable sexual things I’ve done. Then I ended up an anal/rectal fissure from the anal sex. This caused extreme pain so that bowel movements were excruciating. There was bleeding and infection. It took a few weeks for that to clear up. However since then the fissure never has completely healed. It will close up but rips open sometimes. When I’m stressed I bleed rectally. That’s often followed by an infection that sets in. So then I’m on antibiotics to clear it up. I’m now 65. I still suffer from the damage used by the anal/rectal fissure. This morning I was at the doc’s picking up yet another round on antibiotics because of this. I’ve tried anal twice since the initial fissure healed. The pain is a lot like having a spike rammed up my anus/rectum.

There are other women here who have had similar damage from anal sex. This is not unusual at all.

Other things that cause anal sex to become painful over time are other forms of damage to the anus/rectum, hemorrhoids, polyps, irritable bowel syndrome, chromes disease, and many more. 

Another thing is that some men are just not all that thoughtful/gentle. These types of guys don’t care if they hurt their partner. It’s all about them.

Hopefully that is clear enough for those who apparently are clueless about why anal sex, can and often does become painful over time for the recipient.




changedbeliefs said:


> On a more general level, I think he also wants to know - and there may be 1% of this, or 90% of this - what's a reasonable expectation? Look, if she's in dire pain from anal now, this part may be moot, but I still hear his tone of inquisitiveness about this aspect, and I'll use the BJ example. Guy dates girl, BJ's are a-plenty; guy marries girl, BJ's go away, girl says, "I don't do that anymore." Guy is left to wonder, "gee....thought I was test-driving the actual model I was buying....what happened? I had the leather seats, navigation and 400-hp engine; I signed on the dotted line, and you pull around with the pleather-trimmed 4-cylinder econobox."


The idea that test driving a person before marriage for sex tells us much of anything is mostly nonsense.

Men use the bait and switch on sex as well. There have been plenty of women here whose husbands were wild lovers before marriage. Then after marriage it turns out that they are very LD to ND. I had this happen to me. This is not a female only issue.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hambone said:


> If I've been married to my wife for 20+ years and she says, "Honey, it's starting to hurt... I don't think I'm going to be able to do this much longer!" and that progresses to. "Honey, I just can't do it... it hurts". Yeah. I love my wife too much to inflict pain on her..
> 
> 
> Now, if we going at it like drunk monkey's before we're married and she's always been enthusiastic about it... We get married and she says, "I'm not doing that any more.. I never liked it and I'm not doing it any more!"
> ...


Of course. Not sure why it is part of this thread as there is no evidence of that here.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Marriage is no guarantee of anything.

Expect things to get worse, not better, after you tie the knot.

Women stop having sex, they get fat, they stop working, they don't do things with you that they did when they're dating. 

Expect this. That way you won't be disappointed. 



Cleancut said:


> How do I tactfully explain that I would never have married a girl who wasn't into these kinds of things?
> PS I'm not looking for judgements here, just advice.
> Thanks


You don't explain that you would have never married a girl who wasn't into those things, because it's pointless.

She's not going to suddenly change her sexual habits because you're trying to guilt her into it by accusing her of a bait and switch.

She is what she is. Either accept it, or divorce her and find someone who will do what you want.

Next time you get married, make sure she's into it, and that means doing it on a fairly regular basis. Sticking your finger in her ass one time, many years before marriage, and waiting for resistance isn't going to cut it.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

CluelessWif said:


> This.
> 
> When my husband and I started dating he always said he would never have kids. When we had been together two years I sat him down and told him that being a mother was something I had always and will always want. Very much a deal breaker. If he really didn't want kids we should break up, no hard feelings.
> 
> At which point he informed me that he never wanted kids because he never wanted to get married, and that I had changed his mind about many things, children being one of them.


I have a very good friend who married a girl who was 38... She had never been married before. He had told me many times that he didn't want anymore kids... He had 1 daughter by previous marriage. This girl wanted children... He told her, "We'll talk about it"... IMO, that was a lie... If he didn't want kids... he should have flat out told her he didn't want kids... Instead, the left the door cracked by saying, "We'll talk about it." What she heard was, "I can talk him into it!"


Well, naturally the marriage didn't last and I hated that that girl wasted 2 years with my friend that she could have spent looking for a husband that wanted kids.

Happy ending though. She was 40 when they divorced... she met a guy, married him and had a baby at 42... 

My friend, remarried another 38 year old who had never married before. He was honest with her about not wanting kids. Secretly she wanted kids... but she married my friend anyway.

I go to visit them with my 11 year old son and he says, "you know, it would be kinda nice to have a son around the farm"... And I replied."Hang on... they don't come out of the womb this size... there is a LOT of work to get them up to this size."

A year later.. she got pregnant and had a baby girl. However, he has not embraced this baby girl.. Sad..


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

changedbeliefs said:


> CluelessWif: you are taking each of my statements and trying to punctuate each one with a conclusion that it seems you feel I should already be reaching (i.e., your clear, concise reason for why this act is painful, which reason forces me to say, I'm sure that is maybe sometimes true, you have no idea if it is definitely the case here).


The wife said that anal sex is now painful to her. She is the only person in this world who is qualified to know if it’s in fact painful. She word has to be taken as the truth.

Further, she has every right to just decide that she does not ever what anal sex again. It’s her body. She decides.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The wife said that anal sex is now painful to her. She is the only person in this world who is qualified to know if it’s in fact painful. She word has to be taken as the truth.


If a woman says she doesn't want to have sex because she's got a headache, does her word have to be taken as the truth?

If so, well then let me just say that's the biggest bunch of BS this side of the Mississipi river, women use that exuse ALL the time to get out of sex. If not, then what's the difference between the headache exucuse and "no anal because it hurts" exuse? If in truth, anal hurts, well that can be fixed. Not just by abstinence.



EleGirl said:


> Further, she has every right to just decide that she does not ever what anal sex again. It’s her body. She decides.


Then he decides whether to cheat on her with a woman that does anal and/or divorce her. He has that "right". He decides.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hambone said:


> If I've been married to my wife for 20+ years and she says, "Honey, it's starting to hurt... I don't think I'm going to be able to do this much longer!" and that progresses to. "Honey, I just can't do it... it hurts". Yeah. I love my wife too much to inflict pain on her..
> 
> 
> Now, if we going at it like drunk monkey's before we're married and she's always been enthusiastic about it... We get married and she says, "I'm not doing that any more.. I never liked it and I'm not doing it any more!"
> ...


Why are you arguing this? It has nothing to do with the OP. This is not what happened in his marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lenzi said:


> If a woman says she doesn't want to have sex because she's got a headache, does her word have to be taken as the truth?
> 
> If so, well then let me just say that's the biggest bunch of BS this side of the Mississipi river, women use that exuse ALL the time to get out of sex. If not, then what's the difference between the headache exucuse and "no anal because it hurts" exuse? If in truth, anal hurts, well that can be fixed. Not just by abstinence.


I'm a woman. I have never used a head ache, or anything else for that matter, as an excuse to not have sex. 

No, some problems caused by anal sex can not ever really be fixed. I know that for a fact.

Further, the pain can be so bad that it's way to traumatic for the person to ever try the act again.


You obviously think that all women are just lying scum so there is no point in any woman discussing anything with you.





lenzi said:


> Then he decides whether to cheat on her with a woman that does anal and/or divorce her. He has that "right". He decides.


Do you really believe that anal sex is required of all women? That just because she has a butt hole she has to accept anal sex?

So you accept adultery in the case of a person getting a specific sexual act?

He has the right to divorce her. He does not have the right to get anal sex somewhere else and expose her to STDs, etc.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I'm a woman. I have never used a head ache, or anything else for that matter, as an excuse to not have sex.
> 
> No, some problems caused by anal sex can not ever really be fixed. I know that for a fact.
> 
> ...



And, you think women always tell the truth? That no woman has never made an excuse to get out of sex?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Clearly you have not engage in anal sex as the recipient. Any man who wants a woman to give him anal sex should try it first enough times to have the entire experience.


I don't disagree with this.


> The anus and rectum are not build to for sexual intercourse. They do not hold up well to the stretching and pounding. I will give to you what I think is a very clear example of why she might have even enjoyed it at first but now it hurts too much to have anal anymore.


I DO disagree with this. I think a person's mileage is going to vary significantly depending on their physiology. We have exactly zero problem with it, and I am no spring chicken. Gay men everywhere do it their whole lives.

.... Continuing on with a bunch of other stuff that is mostly spot on.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Why are you arguing this? It has nothing to do with the OP. This is not what happened in his marriage.


Because Scarlet said that if a woman leads a man on.. engages in an activity willfully, and after the wedding refuses to engage in that behavior again..

That, unless you specifically asked her about that behavior before hand.. you really have no recourse.

IMO, the person really has an obligation to be honest. Do not willfully engage in activities you don't like... thinking you can just quit once you've maintained the lie long enough to get that person to marry you.

That's not fair to you or your spouse..

We've talked about this before. Neither of our previous spouses where honest with us.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hambone said:


> And, you think women always tell the truth? That no woman has never made an excuse to get out of sex?


No where did I say that no woman has ever lied and/or made excuses to get out of sex. SO WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN THIS MANNER AS THOUGH I DID?

Of course some women have lied and/or made excuses to get out of sex. Some men lie and/or make up excuses to get out of sex as well.

My point is that all women do not do this.

The poster I was replied to assumes that no woman who gives a reason for not wanting to have sex, or do a particular sex act, is telling the truth.. he point is that all women always lie about such excuses and reasons.

If you want to defend his point of view a valid, go for it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't disagree with this.
> 
> I DO disagree with this. I think a person's mileage is going to vary significantly depending on their physiology. We have exactly zero problem with it, and I am no spring chicken. Gay men everywhere do it their whole lives.
> 
> .... Continuing on with a bunch of other stuff that is mostly spot on.


There are a significant number of gay men who suffer a damage to their anus/rectum due to anal sex.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

There is seriously too much conjecture going on here in this thread. Let's try to stay on topic:



> How do I tactfully explain that I would never have married a girl who wasn't into these kinds of things?
> PS I'm not looking for judgements here, just advice.
> Thanks


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hambone said:


> Because Scarlet said that if a woman leads a man on.. engages in an activity willfully, and after the wedding refuses to engage in that behavior again..
> 
> That, unless you specifically asked her about that behavior before hand.. you really have no recourse.


Scarlet was talking about OP and you are trying to take what she said about the OP and generalize it.

The OP never discussed this with his wife before marriage. They never had anal sex before marriage. He has no grounds to assume that she is going to engage in anal sex after marriage.



hambone said:


> IMO, the person really has an obligation to be honest. Do not willfully engage in activities you don't like... thinking you can just quit once you've maintained the lie long enough to get that person to marry you.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not fair to you or your spouse..


What I read Scarlet to say is that she agrees with the above. And it has nothing to do with the OP's situation she his wife never lied. If anything he's the one who lied and misrepresented himself because he did not tell her before marriage that anal is a deal breaker for him.



hambone said:


> We've talked about this before. Neither of our previous spouses where honest with us.


Yes we have. I have do doubt that Scarlet would agree that what our spouses did was wrong.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I've been very clear in my posts. hambone wants someone to argue things with him for some odd reason and I haven't disagreed w him on any of his points.

-don't say you like something when you don't
-it's always best to check w your partner when you have deal breaker items such as anal sex.
-don't bait and switch..which is the same as don't pretend to like something you don't like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> No where did I say that no woman has ever lied and/or made excuses to get out of sex. SO WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN THIS MANNER AS THOUGH I DID?
> 
> Of course some women have lied and/or made excuses to get out of sex. Some men lie and/or make up excuses to get out of sex as well.
> 
> ...


I asked a question...

Didn't you say that you have to accept what a woman says as the truth?

My statement was a response to your post, "You obviously think that all women are just lying scum so there is no point in any woman discussing anything with you."


On a personal note... I do not believe my wife... in 20+ years of marriage has ever.. not once.. given me an excuse for not having sex.

Now, my first wife...totally the opposite. She had an excuse 24/7/365 Right up until the wedding day... everything was OK. 

I think more women do it than you're willing to admit. I hear too many guy friends complaining.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I've been very clear in my posts. hambone wants someone to argue things with him for some odd reason and I haven't disagreed w him on any of his points.
> 
> -don't say you like something when you don't
> -it's always best to check w your partner when you have deal breaker items such as anal sex.
> ...



We have a disagreement on your second point. IMO, if you routinely and willfully engage in an activity when you are dating someone.. an activity that you have no intention of continuing and you continue to engage in it.. even smiling as you do... it is your responsibility to be honest and tell you prospective mate that you don't like it...and don't intend to continue doing it. IMO, it is not incumbent on the other party to verify that you are being honest.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

So no one has an obligation to be clear about their deal breakers? Really? 
Being clear about deal breakers is a must. Being clear about major deal breakers should happen during normal relationship communication as should honestly expressing your likes and dislikes.
You keep saying the same thing over and over when not one person thinks it's ok to lie. 

Honestly if you come back w the same argument I'm done with you. It's obvious you're not getting it and I'm certainly tired of saying it in different ways for you.

Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> So no one has an obligation to be clear about their deal breakers? Really?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Apparently not. Don't discuss your deal breakers but don't pretend to like something that you don't. Pretty sure, that expressing your dislike for something that is a deal breaker would require some form of verbal communication? 

Unless using ASL, voguing or doing the macarena is considered adequate to get those points across.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

One of my MIL's friends work in a nursing home. Rectal prolapses are quite common thing... she has literally had to put people's bowels back in for them in the home.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. People keep saying the same damn thing and arguing about nothing. lol.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> So no one has an obligation to be clear about their deal breakers? Really?
> Being clear about deal breakers is a must. Being clear about major deal breakers should happen during normal relationship communication as should honestly expressing your likes and dislikes.
> You keep saying the same thing over and over when not one person thinks it's ok to lie.
> 
> ...


I really don't understand your position. If you agree that it isn't OK to lie... and every body is honest.. then why is there any obligation to verify deal breakers.

If you have to verify every deal breaker... I'm gonna need several legal pages.

I'm dating to get to know you... to find out if we are compatible. If you are being yourself.. being honest... I can make that evaluation with out having to check off a ton of boxes across several legal pages.

In fact, I'm not sure a whole legal pad would be enough if I have to cover every possible contingency.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

OP made one post. Not ever thread has to be a marathon--but anal sex tends to bring that out in people?

My advice is: there is no way to tactfully say "I need anal or I will divorce you." The time to do so without legal consequences has passed unfortunately.

Just say it and deal with the fallout. Or decide if it really is something that is divorce-worthy. Only OP can make that choice.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> So no one has an obligation to be clear about their deal breakers? Really?
> Being clear about deal breakers is a must. Being clear about major deal breakers should happen during normal relationship communication as should honestly expressing your likes and dislikes.
> You keep saying the same thing over and over when not one person thinks it's ok to lie.
> 
> ...



So tell me.. did you really set down and go through a long list of deal breakers? And, did it lead to a happy marriage?


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Cleancut said:


> How do I tactfully explain that I would never have married a girl who wasn't into these kinds of things?
> PS I'm not looking for judgements here, just advice.
> Thanks


The fact of the matter is that there is no tactful way to say the above. 

You can bring it up to her that anal sex is something you really enjoyed previously to dating/getting married and wanted to do it in your marriage. Other than that, there isn't much you could do. 

If it's that big of a deal to you, that despite all of the other sexual things she does do for you, the ways she contributes to your home, and if you have kids - kids etc. you still can't be satisfied with a wife that doesn't do anal, then your only recourse is to divorce. 

Other people have said similar... don't think there is much left to say in this thread. You can't make someone want something they know they don't. Just like you can't make someone stop wanting it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Didn't you see, Hambone, where she said "take care"?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

hambone said:


> So tell me.. did you really set down and go through a long list of deal breakers? And, did it lead to a happy marriage?


The first time around? Nope. We didn't. 

This time? Absolutely, we did. We also went to counseling beforehand too. He is perfectly clear on my deal breakers and potential exceptions and vice versa. We aren't perfect but we understand thorough communication is important,take nothing for granted,and never assume anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

that_girl said:


> Didn't you see, Hambone, where she said "take care"?


And did you see where she posted... just above that?

Honestly if you come back w the same argument I'm done with you. It's obvious you're not getting it and I'm certainly tired of saying it in different ways for you

What did you get out of that?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I got that she was sick of talking to you and didn't think you'd have a different argument because you kept saying the same one.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The first time around? Nope. We didn't.
> 
> This time? Absolutely, we did. We also went to counseling beforehand too. He is perfectly clear on my deal breakers and potential exceptions and vice versa. We aren't perfect but we understand thorough communication is important,take nothing for granted,and never assume anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My first wife and I went to marriage classes... We talked about a whole bunch of stuff. Didn't do a damn bit of good. I woke up with a totally different woman the day after our marriage than the one I dated.

My second wife was honest. She told me of one specific thing that she didn't really like doing... camping... I married the woman I dated... she was honest. and I have been blissfully happy for 20+ years.


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

that_girl said:


> I got that she was sick of talking to you and didn't think you'd have a different argument because you kept saying the same one.



I got out of it... if I came back with the same argument.. she was telling me in advance. "take care".


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## hambone (Mar 30, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The first time around? Nope. We didn't.
> 
> This time? Absolutely, we did. We also went to counseling beforehand too. He is perfectly clear on my deal breakers and potential exceptions and vice versa. We aren't perfect but we understand thorough communication is important,take nothing for granted,and never assume anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thought just occurred to me.

Suppose a person has zeroed in on you and is totally commited to marrying you... To the point that they are faking a bunch of stuff... Doing things that they dislike... but expressing enthusiasm for them all the time..

So, you go down your check list..

Will you continue doing XYZ with me 7 days a week... If they are 100% committed to marrying you... what are the chances of them giving you an honest answer?

If they've faked it this far.. why wouldn't they say, 'Why YES honey... I love doing XYZ with you!!!"


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Apparently I wasn't really clear. Not every thread has to be a philosophical punch-out. Especially threads that the OP has posted once in and hasn't responded since.

If OP wants to come back and talk about all this stuff, lets do it. If not...why not start your own thread? Not in SIM though. Punchouts are best played out in the Lounges and Clubhouses.


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