# True love, pure love, painful love; where to get?



## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

My WW says that she was searching for true love, pure love, painful love so she had an affair. I'm at loss of words to explain these terms. I wish I can buy this in walmart but I can't. With me handling day-to-day carp, the only way she can ever feel true/pure/painful is having an AP.

How to explain someone with so dysfunctional emotions about love? Any help??


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Its not love, its her wayward mind using that word to justify her selfish actions and behavior.

Love, made for each other, soul mates, blah blah blah all bullsh!t used by waywards to treat their husbands/wives like crap. 

Also theres still no excuse for them not getting a divorce first. 

Kick her ass out and see how fast she abandons that angle, and starts crying about being sorry.


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## Maneo (Dec 4, 2012)

and what sort of love does she profess she has for you?


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## husbandfool (May 20, 2012)

she just wanted another penis ... plain and simple.

Most of our problems are self-inflicted and are biological in nature.
Mankind tends to give itself too much credit for being the most intelligent species.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Sounds like chick lit talk from your wife. My STBXW does the same thing when trying to make excuses. So many cliches out of her mouth. "Eat, Pray, Love", "50 shades of Grey", with a little "Too good to leave, Too bad to stay" all rolled up into one.

The bottom line is our wives were unhappy. Instead of investing into the marriage (the loyal, mature response), they took the fantasy way out. Too selfish and too fogged up (i.e. temporarily stupid) to realize that a fantasy is just that.... a fantasy. 

My wife was 45 when she strayed. With a guy 13 years younger, who was just leaving his first wife with a 1 year old and a 3 year old. While having an affair with my wife, he had a girlfriend then later a fiance, who he married. Yet, my wife thought he was her soul mate. I guess it was "painful love" when he married his fiance (3 months after the PA with my wife ended). She has the emotional maturity of a teenager. Seriously. My 14 year old daughter is emotionally more grounded than my wife. My wife is still chasing her fantasy. I guess she wants more of that pure, painful love that was so good for her the last time...


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Sounds like chick lit talk from your wife. My STBXW does the same thing when trying to make excuses. So many cliches out of her mouth. "Eat, Pray, Love", "50 shades of Grey", with a little "Too good to leave, Too bad to stay" all rolled up into one.
> 
> The bottom line is our wives were unhappy. Instead of investing into the marriage (the loyal, mature response), they took the fantasy way out. Too selfish and too fogged up (i.e. temporarily stupid) to realize that a fantasy is just that.... a fantasy.
> 
> My wife was 45 when she strayed. With a guy 13 years younger, who was just leaving his first wife with a 1 year old and a 3 year old. While having an affair with my wife, he had a girlfriend then later a fiance, who he married. Yet, my wife thought he was her soul mate. I guess it was "painful love" when he married his fiance (3 months after the PA with my wife ended). She has the emotional maturity of a teenager. Seriously. My 14 year old daughter is emotionally more grounded than my wife. My wife is still chasing her fantasy. I guess she wants more of that pure, painful love that was so good for her the last time...


How is she still your wife?


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Kasler said:


> How is she still your wife?


Well, we've been separated now for 3 months - takes one year for a divorce in Canada. So she's my STBXW. Hard habit to break though, referring to her as my "wife". We were married 25 years. She started her EA in our 21st year of marriage. 

Maybe I should just call her my ex-wife!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is really middle-school stuff. The more I read on TAM, the more I worry for my gender. The only consolation I have is that I know many, many women (most of the women I know) who are not like this at all.

Interestingly also, the typical romance novel hero is faithful to his love & the heroine won't tolerate infidelity. These are supposed to represent female ideals.....


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This is really middle-school stuff. The more I read on TAM, the more I worry for my gender. The only consolation I have is that I know many, many women (most of the women I know) who are not like this at all.
> 
> Interestingly also, the typical romance novel hero is faithful to his love & the heroine won't tolerate infidelity. These are supposed to represent female ideals.....


alte Dame: Most of the novels my STBXW read in the last couple years of our marriage were "modern, confident woman" novels and involved a heroine who was stuck in a "loveless" marriage and sought happiness, fulfillment, and killer sex via an affair. The OM's were typically fabulously wealthy, and had flat, washboard stomachs, and were sensitive too!! I'll try to get a few titles - they'r boxed up right now. LOL! 

Anyway - best wishes for the season. I have to run - my STBXW is coming over for dinner (believe it or not) and she is cooking. It wasn't my idea.... it was a suggestion of our mediator. It was either this, or shuttle my girls to her place for a couple of hours tomorrow.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> alte Dame: Most of the novels my STBXW read in the last couple years of our marriage were "modern, confident woman" novels and involved a heroine who was stuck in a "loveless" marriage and sought happiness, fulfillment, and killer sex via an affair. The OM's were typically fabulously wealthy, and had flat, washboard stomachs, and were sensitive too!! I'll try to get a few titles - they'r boxed up right now. LOL!
> 
> Anyway - best wishes for the season. I have to run - my STBXW is coming over for dinner (believe it or not) and she is cooking. It wasn't my idea.... it was a suggestion of our mediator. It was either this, or shuttle my girls to her place for a couple of hours tomorrow.


Have her taste test the food she cooks before you try it... just sayin'.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Maneo said:


> and what sort of love does she profess she has for you?


hahaha...When in deep fog, the love she profess for me was "financial provider and baby-sitter" love


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> alte Dame: Most of the novels my STBXW read in the last couple years of our marriage were "modern, confident woman" novels and involved a heroine who was stuck in a "loveless" marriage and sought happiness, fulfillment, and killer sex via an affair. The OM's were typically fabulously wealthy, and had flat, washboard stomachs, and were sensitive too!! I'll try to get a few titles - they'r boxed up right now. LOL!
> 
> Anyway - best wishes for the season. I have to run - my STBXW is coming over for dinner (believe it or not) and she is cooking. It wasn't my idea.... it was a suggestion of our mediator. It was either this, or shuttle my girls to her place for a couple of hours tomorrow.


Most of the movies my WW watches has intense love-stories. And she will see herself in every heroine. In a day if she watches 10 movies, she will see herself in all the 10 heroines. It was my WW who was forcing the OM to believe that it’s true/pure love. And once a while she will ask the OM why he wants to be in this painful love, whereas OM basically wanted to get into her pants.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Ooph, I'm with you on this.

I saw my STBXW reading "Eat Pray Love" during the affair period and only recently found out about what that book is about. It sounds like a real fog-inducer.

Real love. Painful love. How long do they think that kind of love lasts? Plus, that's how she felt when WE first met. She knows about the stages of love but chooses to ignore them. 

STBXW did not want to "pass to the side of things" and miss an opportunity to start a new life with OM. And if it doesn't work out? "Oh well, at least we took our chances."

Is that how she will explain it to our daughters?


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## Soccerfan73 (Jul 30, 2011)

Sounds like a lot of New Age nonsense.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Soccerfan73 said:


> Sounds like a lot of New Age nonsense.


Especially with the boom in technology and when BS/parents pamper their WS/kids, it's easy to bring fantasy alive via affair.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I do plan to educate myself by reading some of these books, especially the non-fiction "Too good to leave, Too bad to stay" variety.

After being cheated on and left, it occurs to me that maybe I don't have a very good grasp of the female mind. There's a whole undercurrent of thoughts they have which men don't have. I don't want to go into another long-term relationship without being better prepared.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Wow. 

I just started reading some of these book previews on Amazon and some of them are really ... dumb.

My conclusion is that any woman who gets something out of these books will typically be:

1. Shallow
2. Vain - it's all about meeeee!
3. Highly unrealistic about relationships
4. High maintenance
5. Expect you to be a mind-reader
6. Expect you to woo her incessantly as if your existence was meant for her pleasure
7. Most likely cheat on you for not meeting her lofty expectations


Not sure how useful these books will be for me but I'll keep searching.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I actually spent a year 'typologizing' romance novels (am a linguist - don't ask  ). There was a clear formula for these books in terms of plot & character traits. The hero had to be 6' or taller, have a perfect build, dazzling eyes and great hair (black hair, blue eyes is a favorite). The heroine had to be much smaller than the hero & was often much less remarkable in looks (female fantasy here of catching the gorgeous man). She was always very smart, though, and he could always see her physical beauty even if others overlooked it.

As for plot, they vary within a narrow range, but the hero *always* gives up his rakish ways for the virginal heroine, who is often shocked at the size of his 'shaft,' pursing her lips in a surprised 'O' and trying to calculate whether it could possibly 'fit.' They marry and have mobs of children and provide a stable example for the couple in the next book in the series.

There is increasingly a lot of sex in these books. The older ones were very soft porn, but the more recent ones are much more explicit. And of course, they are ridiculously unrealistic. 

It's not a surprise, though, that women glom on to these books as opposed to earlier romance stories. Remember that up until the last century, they were primarily written by men & look what happened to those heroines - Juliet and Isolde die for their love, Guinevere and Gretchen are destroyed, and let's not get started on poor Anna Karenina...

No matter - if a reader can't tell fact from fiction, we're in trouble.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Married women who are bored with life often run into
the arms of the nearest bad boy that offers up NSA sex.

Plain and simple.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Soccerfan73 said:


> Sounds like a lot of New Age nonsense.


Actually alte Dame nailed it, it's very old. This script is carbon copy of Madame Bovary (1856-57), minus the suicide: immature woman, delusional, romance-fantasy driven, running from her percived mediocre life, manipulating and gaslighting BH and fooling herself with the grandiosity of her lovers who invariably dump her, and even then they remain shockingly in the fantasy bubble becasue they don't get the issue is within instead of outhere. Of course daughter is neglected.

Only changes the minutiae.
Is not a surprise Madame Bovary is abook about mediocrity.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

If she can put her feelings in words, ask her: "what do you mean by love?"


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> ... is abook about mediocrity.


Sadly so, I think. But very destructive.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I do plan to educate myself by reading some of these books, especially the non-fiction "Too good to leave, Too bad to stay" variety.
> 
> After being cheated on and left, it occurs to me that maybe I don't have a very good grasp of the female mind. *There's a whole undercurrent of thoughts they have which men don't have. *I don't want to go into another long-term relationship without being better prepared.


Well, it's not like women invented cheating, and men never cheat! Nor is it unheard of for men to dump their "old" wives for a newer, younger model...the term "trophy wife" was created for a reason.

I'm not minimizing what you're going through, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your wife is unfathomable. Men are not only capable of understanding it, they've been doing it for years, too.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Wow.
> 
> I just started reading some of these book previews on Amazon and some of them are really ... dumb.
> 
> ...


Item 1 to 6 are very true and item 7 is the result of items 1 to 6.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

John2012 said:


> Item 1 to 6 are very true and item 7 is the result of items 1 to 6.


I would add "Emotionally immature, or stunted" to the list. My STBXW has a very adolescent view of relationships. Looking back, I am amazed we made it through almost 25 years... I gave away way too much to keep it going...

Norajane - a lot of the list would apply to men who cheat too.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

John2012 said:


> hahaha...When in deep fog, the love she profess for me was "financial provider and baby-sitter" love


AWESOME...Im sure thats all you aspired to ever be to someone, huh?!


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I would add "Emotionally immature, or stunted" to the list. My STBXW has a very adolescent view of relationships. Looking back, I am amazed we made it through almost 25 years... I gave away way too much to keep it going...
> 
> Norajane - a lot of the list would apply to men who cheat too.


I'll go with emotionally immature as top of my list. What I know is that in search of this pure/true/painful love, my WS has destroyed/hurt 2 families, 2+2 kids and so many senior citizens lives. Almost all the Senior parents involved in this mess are in dire situation.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

norajane said:


> Well, it's not like women invented cheating, and men never cheat! Nor is it unheard of for men to dump their "old" wives for a newer, younger model...the term "trophy wife" was created for a reason.
> 
> I'm not minimizing what you're going through, but don't make the mistake of thinking that your wife is unfathomable. Men are not only capable of understanding it, they've been doing it for years, too.


Yes, but for the guy, it can work out for them. it seems like an awful lot of women give up everything they have for nothing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Yes, but for the guy, it tends to work out for them. it seems like an awful lot of women give up everything they have for nothing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When you say 'work out for them' do you mean that their marriages survive the infidelity or that when their marriages break up, they land on their feet?

My understanding is that both instances are true. I also think that TAM gives a scewed view of female infidelity. The boards here seem to be weighted more toward BH problems, so it's easy to transfer that impression to the general populace. Outside of venues like TAM, though, the BW is still much more common than the BH.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> My understanding is that both instances are true. I also think that TAM gives a skewed view of female infidelity. The boards here seem to be weighted more toward BH problems, so it's easy to transfer that impression to the general populace. Outside of venues like TAM, though, the BW is still much more common than the BH.


This may be true. There does seem to be a lot of broken-hearted guys on this board. 

My issue right now are the mind movies. They are incessant. 

I feel like my STBXW unleashed a sexual side with OM that had laid dormant the past couple of years. Our first couple of years together were pretty wild, but now I realize we're both more mature and we should have been exploring our hidden desires more. That's part of totally giving ourselves to each other, right? 

It just kills me to know that my STBXW is getting dirty with some guy and probably doing stuff we never did. It's like we both held back and got in a routine. I noticed she started spicing it up pre-affair (she had met OM but not started the A) and then she started the affair and sex was inconsistent. 

So in a way I just feel like dog **** for not coaxing that out in her. This may be hard for women to understand - how the sexual part affects men. I can be depressed all day about it. There I was in a loving relationship with good sex and good connection, seven years in with two kids, and apparently I'm not unleashing her tigress within. That just freaking hurts. I think it's this thing where husbands don't want to objectify their wives to feel objectified or something. I think I put that block on. Of course, the OM has no such block. He's doing everything he possibly can to sex her up. Makes me want to vomit.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> When you say 'work out for them' do you mean that their marriages survive the infidelity or that when their marriages break up, they land on their feet?
> 
> My understanding is that both instances are true. I also think that TAM gives a scewed view of female infidelity. The boards here seem to be weighted more toward BH problems, so it's easy to transfer that impression to the general populace. Outside of venues like TAM, though, the BW is still much more common than the BH.


BW, who are housewife has more drawbacks. I'm the BH but I was in touch with the OMW who is a BW. She had mobility/financial/technology issues. In-fact she has come to a stage of wait & watch rather than taking any action.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> AWESOME...Im sure thats all you aspired to ever be to someone, huh?!


I don't know what more I can do. I can't be a romantic novel/movie hero everyday. I've my imperfections and I live with that. Expecting perfection from imperfection is impossible !!! 

I care for my family and that I know is True, Pure and sometimes painful.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

staystrong said:


> It just kills me to know that my STBXW is getting dirty with some guy and probably doing stuff we never did. It's like we both held back and got in a routine. I noticed she started spicing it up pre-affair (she had met OM but not started the A) and then she started the affair and sex was inconsistent.
> 
> So in a way I just feel like dog **** for not coaxing that out in her. This may be hard for women to understand - how the sexual part affects men. I can be depressed all day about it. There I was in a loving relationship with good sex and good connection, seven years in with two kids, and apparently I'm not unleashing her tigress within. That just freaking hurts. I think it's this thing where husbands don't want to objectify their wives to feel objectified or something. I think I put that block on. Of course, the OM has no such block. He's doing everything he possibly can to sex her up. Makes me want to vomit.


I think neither men nor women understand how the sex element affects their spouses. A lot of women do not understand at all how primary sex is to the man in a marriage. Women think that what's going on in their heads is mirrored in their husbands' minds & simply do not understand the feelings about sex that are so different from their own.

And men don't get that women don't feel desired in the same way as they get older & this takes a huge toll. Men think that if they tell their wives that they are 'beautiful' and that they are just as desirable as ever, that that will be enough. But women believe their lying eyes. They are out in the world & can't help but notice that younger women are turning all the heads, including their husbands' (this is much more important than men know). So, they start to feel bad about themselves, washed up, undesirable. The routine sex reinforces that feeling. It seems that for some women, having some creep sniffing around for sex translates into their still being desirable, and this is a huge ego boost.

It's not that they saved the inner tigress for the OM. It's that they feel desirable again. Sex to a wife often means just that - desirability. And some women translate the feeling of being desired to the emotional level of 'you're the one for me; you're the special one.' And so they stray & ruin people's lives.

It seems to me that men do the same straying, but don't believe as often that they've found that perfect someone. (This delusion is left to their AP's unfortunately.) The WH's here often seem to be A-OK with having several women in their lives to collectively take care of their needs - cake eating as lifestyle solution. The immature women here, on the other hand, put all their eggs in own basket and declare completely for the OM.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

staystrong said:


> So in a way I just feel like dog **** for not coaxing that out in her. *This may be hard for women to understand -* how the sexual part affects men. I can be depressed all day about it. There I was in a loving relationship with good sex and good connection, seven years in with two kids, and apparently I'm not unleashing her tigress within. That just freaking hurts. I think it's this thing where husbands don't want to objectify their wives to feel objectified or something. I think I put that block on. Of course, the OM has no such block. He's doing everything he possibly can to sex her up. Makes me want to vomit.


BW know and understand this very well. They have mind movies, too. They feel like they weren't good enough, pretty enough, sexy enough, hot enough, young enough. they feel like their boobs weren't the right size or their ass was too big. They get depressed and hurt and sick thinking that the man they loved for years and had children with chose to have an affair with another woman. They get sick thinking about their WH loving on another woman.

Women understand this very well. It's not hard for us to understand that men and women both end up feeling like sh*t when they've been cheated on.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> When you say 'work out for them' do you mean that their marriages survive the infidelity or that when their marriages break up, they land on their feet?
> 
> My understanding is that both instances are true. I also think that TAM gives a scewed view of female infidelity. The boards here seem to be weighted more toward BH problems, so it's easy to transfer that impression to the general populace. Outside of venues like TAM, though, the BW is still much more common than the BH.


alte Dame: Do you think it's a skewed view, or do you think it's because the trend is becoming more balanced between the sexes? Of course, For every cheating relationship there is usually a man and a woman, has always been this way so it is a zero sum game from that perspective. But I believe that the ease of starting an "innocent" relationship via texting and social networking makes it easier now for women to initiate communications which lead to an EA. Of course, my view is biased, but my wife, for example, would never have initiated her EA without gmail chats. It was this small step which made it easy to act out what might have stayed a brief fantasy. I.e. it is easier now to make baby steps to an affair. Even her GNO's would have been much harder to keep below the radar without BBM and texts. 

I think there is a trend that a growing percentage of "strayers" are women. Maybe there are still more male strayers, but it is quickly evening out, IMO.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> And some women translate the feeling of being desired to the emotional level of 'you're the one for me; you're the special one.' And so they stray & ruin people's lives.
> 
> It seems to me that men do the same straying, but don't believe as often that they've found that perfect someone. (This delusion is left to their AP's unfortunately.) The WH's here often seem to be A-OK with having several women in their lives to collectively take care of their needs - cake eating as lifestyle solution. The immature women here, on the other hand, put all their eggs in own basket and declare completely for the OM.


These two quotes for my WS and the OM is very true. My WS said she found the soulmate. She has put all eggs in one basket and declare completely for the OM whereas the OM wanted his wife and my WS - cake eating as lifestyle but pretended as if he was in a rescue mission, rescuing two women !!!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> alte Dame: Do you think it's a skewed view, or do you think it's because the trend is becoming more balanced between the sexes? Of course, For every cheating relationship there is usually a man and a woman, has always been this way so it is a zero sum game from that perspective. But I believe that the ease of starting an "innocent" relationship via texting and social networking makes it easier now for women to initiate communications which lead to an EA. Of course, my view is biased, but my wife, for example, would never have initiated her EA without gmail chats. It was this small step which made it easy to act out what might have stayed a brief fantasy. I.e. it is easier now to make baby steps to an affair. Even her GNO's would have been much harder to keep below the radar without BBM and texts.
> 
> I think there is a trend that a growing percentage of "stayers" are women. Maybe there are still more male strayers, but it is quickly evening out, IMO.


I think it's a skewed view, but less so than it used to be, i.e., I think women are cheating more than they used to, but it is still statistically a man-heavy behavior. (Many sociologists point to the introduction of the birth control pill as the historical start of this trend.)

Anyway, here's what I think about the skewing on TAM:

I believe that it is much more difficult and stigmatized for a man to talk openly to friends and family about a cheating wife than it is for a woman to talk about a cheating husband. Women typically and by nature have lateral networks that they discuss intimate details with and, although they may be humiliated, they nonetheless will lean on the warm bodies of friends to talk about their H's cheating. I think the anonymity of TAM, combined with the warm support and camaraderie offered here by other, sympathetic and very experienced men makes it much easier for a man to talk about this impossibly hurtful and humiliating experience. There are many threads that start here that I will not intrude on because I think the OP needs a 'man hug.'

So, for me TAM offers a lifeline for men that society denies them. I think that they badly need the help and discussion. I'm extremely sympathetic to both the men and women here & have learned a lot about the thoughts and feelings of men. (I'm here for my own personal reasons, but it's very helpful on many levels if one wants to understand the human condition & just get along in the world as a decent person.)


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> When you say 'work out for them' do you mean that their marriages survive the infidelity or that when their marriages break up, they land on their feet?
> 
> My understanding is that both instances are true. I also think that TAM gives a scewed view of female infidelity. The boards here seem to be weighted more toward BH problems, so it's easy to transfer that impression to the general populace. Outside of venues like TAM, though, the BW is still much more common than the BH.


More so the latter than the former. I'm basing this entirely on my non-TAM pre-betrayal observations. I've seen a lot of guys go for and end up with the trophy wife...unethically allowing the relationships to overlap.

Exactly 0 of the woman I've seen ditch their husband from "true love" or "everlasting love" or whatever they call it see to be back on eHarmony within 9 months.

Ironically several of these women were friends of my xWF. I'm really surprised that my xWF continued holding me to the fairy tale love standard even after repeatedly seeing how unrealistic ad downright destructive it was.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

John2012 said:


> My WW says that she was searching for true love, pure love, painful love so she had an affair. I'm at loss of words to explain these terms. I wish I can buy this in walmart but I can't. With me handling day-to-day carp, the only way she can ever feel true/pure/painful is having an AP.
> 
> How to explain someone with so dysfunctional emotions about love? Any help??


Well,you had true love and pure love, with her affair she has smashed your heart and given you painful love.

Or is that not what she means?

It's my guess she decided to have an affair, or found herself having an affair and tried to justify it to herself with hippy dippy meaningless psychobabble.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

staystrong said:


> I do plan to educate myself by reading some of these books, especially the non-fiction "Too good to leave, Too bad to stay" variety.
> 
> After being cheated on and left, it occurs to me that maybe I don't have a very good grasp of the female mind. There's a whole undercurrent of thoughts they have which men don't have. I don't want to go into another long-term relationship without being better prepared.


Have you read MMSL?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

tdwal said:


> So in your opinion what should husbands do to make their wives feel desirable when they won't believe what they say?


For one thing, make a very big effort to not check out other women when they are out with their wives. Other classic romantic moves are helpful - a surprise dinner date for two in a nice restaurant, flowers once in a while (not for any occasion), regular compliments on how she looks/how she is dressed, joining her in the shower/bath, telling her she is a wonderful mother/wife, taking the time to talk and listen. These are all courtship strategies, I suppose, but they make a difference.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> For one thing, make a very big effort to not check out other women when they are out with their wives. Other classic romantic moves are helpful - a surprise dinner date for two in a nice restaurant, flowers once in a while (not for any occasion), regular compliments on how she looks/how she is dressed, joining her in the shower/bath, telling her she is a wonderful mother/wife, taking the time to talk and listen. These are all courtship strategies, I suppose, but they make a difference.


My wife always points out willowy, model types and says: "She's pretty, isn't she?" To which I reply: "No, she isn't."

She asked me one day what type of women I like. I said: "Women who look like you."


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

tdwal said:


> I'm with you but they don't believe you.


Well, she did when I nearly walked into a wall when my attention was taken by a young lady who was short, had fairly thick legs, a large bottom and who was wearing an 'unfashionably' short miniskirt. My wife said: "You wouldn't catch ME wearing a dress that short, with MY legs!"

Without thinking I replied: "No. More's the pity!"

She gave me a rather funny look! But now, when we are out, if there's a short woman, with a large bottom she'll grin and say: "Bet you fancy her!"


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

tdwal said:


> I'm with you but they don't believe you.


As a woman gets older, she's never going to believe that she is as sexy in absolute terms as the bombshell 20-something. To say otherwise simply isn't credible and she gets that. But a recognition that you're both aging and that she looks and is great for her age, and you love only her, and she is beautiful not just to you but to many people, and you can't wait to get her clothes off...as I said, it goes a long way.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> For one thing, make a very big effort to not check out other women when they are out with their wives. Other classic romantic moves are helpful - a surprise dinner date for two in a nice restaurant, flowers once in a while (not for any occasion), regular compliments on how she looks/how she is dressed, joining her in the shower/bath, telling her she is a wonderful mother/wife, taking the time to talk and listen. *These are all courtship strategies, I suppose, but they make a difference.*


Or as I like to say, all the things you USED to do before you got married & began to take your spouse for granted. 
There is a tendency here on TAM for people to blame sexless marriages on a wife who baited & switched.
Well, I'd like to point that many men are guilty of baiting & switching themselves.
They put on a grand show before marriage, then after being married, decide that since they have you, why should they bother anymore.
It's pretty simple, if you're not going to do it for your wife, someone else could very well do it for you.
The exact same goes for wives who won't have sex with their husbands, take him for granted, expect he's going to put up w/ no sex & you could find yourself replaced.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> For one thing, make a very big effort to not check out other women when they are out with their wives. Other classic romantic moves are helpful - a surprise dinner date for two in a nice restaurant, flowers once in a while (not for any occasion), regular compliments on how she looks/how she is dressed, joining her in the shower/bath, telling her she is a wonderful mother/wife, taking the time to talk and listen. These are all courtship strategies, I suppose, but they make a difference.





> As a woman gets older, she's never going to believe that she is as sexy in absolute terms as the bombshell 20-something. To say otherwise simply isn't credible and she gets that. But a recognition that you're both aging and that she looks and is great for her age, and you love only her, and she is beautiful not just to you but to many people, and you can't wait to get her clothes off...as I said, it goes a long way.


Sometimes it's that the won't believe you (you are your husband so it's your duty). Sometimes it's your opinion doesn't matter anymore (they are used to it, desensitized). Out of love and because it's true I always tried to give reassurance to my wife, to show her, to afirm her.
Then, if a woman crave afirmation about being desireable sometimes the husband is the last man on earth she wants to hear compliments and validation, the task must be done elsewere necessarily. They need it from someone beside their husband. It's a lost battle. You can't be new, different, convenient.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sometimes it's that the won't believe you (you are your husband so it's your duty). Sometimes it's your opinion doesn't matter anymore (they are used to it, desensitized). Out of love and because it's true I always tried to give reassurance to my wife, to show her, to afirm her.
> Then, if a woman crave afirmation about being desireable sometimes the husband is the last man on earth she wants to hear compliments and validation, the task must be done elsewere necessarily. They need it from someone beside their husband. It's a lost battle. You can't be new, different, convenient.


I know. This is what tdwal is saying, too. I don't think any woman can give a foolproof answer to this. As with so much, there probably is no perfect answer. We can just try our best. Clearly, there are people here who are trying whatever they know, but it's hopeless. Often, though, the threads start with an acknowledgment that the OP's seriously dropped the ball, that they took things for granted, etc.

(I can tell you from my own experience, though, that it was a turning point for me when my H started bringing flowers home every week. At first I was actually suspicious, thinking that it couldn't be genuine (why do we think this way?). As time went on, it actually began to make a big difference in my feelings about myself and our relationship.)


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

tdwal said:


> That is the common thread I see too. H is indifferent taking W for granted and is surprised when W gets her needs met elsewhere. If the H does recognize he has done this and tries to remedy it is often too late to because W sees actions with suspicion.


This thread is about the 'true love, painful love' meme that so many of the WW's subscribe to & no doubt they would justify their affairs with the claim that their needs weren't met. This is where things get so difficult, this gray area where a spouse is justified in feeling neglected. It's here where they can choose to work on things at home or cheat. The schoolgirl romantic 'pure love' rationalization offers them subconscious cover for choosing the cheating route.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

tdwal said:


> That is the common thread I see too. H is indifferent taking W for granted and is surprised when W gets her needs met elsewhere. If the H does recognize he has done this and tries to remedy it is often too late to because W sees actions with suspicion.


Very true. During our false R, my STBXW would say that it feels unnatural. I too, felt like we were trying too hard. What used to seem natural seemed forced and artificial.

No question that in many cases (mine included) the husband drops the ball after many years and neglects to continually woo his wife. Kids, work, and just complacency are the excuses - and while they are valid reasons they are no excuse for neglecting a marriage. But it goes both ways. Eg - My wife used to come up behind me and just give me a hug and put her chin on my shoulder - for no particular reason - just to talk and be close. Then one day she stopped doing it. Little things like that just stopped. And we weren't having trouble then - it's just in hindsight that the little things we did FOR EACH OTHER became less frequent. Again, work, kids, complacency - getting too comfortable and lazy in the relationship.

So I accept my part of the responsibility for the state of our marriage pre-affair - but it was no more than a 50% responsibility. And my wife's decision to be unfaithful is 100% hers.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This thread is about the 'true love, painful love' meme that so many of the WW's subscribe to & no doubt they would justify their affairs with the claim that their needs weren't met. This is where things get so difficult, this gray area where a spouse is justified in feeling neglected. It's here where they can choose to work on things at home or cheat. The schoolgirl romantic 'pure love' rationalization offers them subconscious cover for choosing the cheating route.


To me this just translates into immaturity. I don't care if she's 20, 30, 40 or 50 years old. 

Same goes for guys. I hold them to the same standard. 

Sorry, but it's just too easy to get attracted to someone else, especially if there's some enhancing factor involved: alcohol, the workplace, a trainer/instructor, etc. 

I could cheat in a snap of the fingers if I wanted. But I don't.

That's the test of character. 

Who are you as a person?

Are you strong and forthright? Prove it to yourself.


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## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

staystrong said:


> To me this just translates into immaturity. I don't care if she's 20, 30, 40 or 50 years old.
> 
> Same goes for guys. I hold them to the same standard.
> 
> ...


I saw the statistics somewhere, around 75% of people from either gender will likely cheat given the consequences are not too severe (low likelihood of getting caught).

It is a sad fact that decent people who honor commitments and responsibilities are the minority in this world.


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## gdtm0111 (Oct 15, 2012)

That's interesting too cause for years my W said she could never have an affair... and no alcohol was involved. She was well aware of what she was doing.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

staystrong said:


> To me this just translates into immaturity. I don't care if she's 20, 30, 40 or 50 years old.
> 
> Same goes for guys. I hold them to the same standard.
> 
> ...


Agree. It is a failure of character and a sign of emotional immaturity. All the self-centered, selfish, flight of fancy mindset of an adolescent. (Except many adolescents have more character than a WS. ) I guess character is something you are taught at a young age, so that when you grow up, you either have it or you don't. A true test of character is what you do when you know you won't get caught.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Sometimes it's that the won't believe you (you are your husband so it's your duty). Sometimes it's your opinion doesn't matter anymore (they are used to it, desensitized). Out of love and because it's true I always tried to give reassurance to my wife, to show her, to afirm her.
> Then, if a woman crave afirmation about being desireable sometimes the husband is the last man on earth she wants to hear compliments and validation, the task must be done elsewere necessarily. They need it from someone beside their husband. It's a lost battle. You can't be new, different, convenient.


I agree with Acabado, in my case, it was true. My WS needed external validation and she was enjoying the external new, different OM.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

staystrong said:


> To me this just translates into immaturity. I don't care if she's 20, 30, 40 or 50 years old.
> 
> Same goes for guys. I hold them to the same standard.
> 
> ...


I think it’s more of a intellectual growth. As a young boy, I had profound effect of two short stories, one was “A Table is a Table by Peter bicsel and “one life by Dr. Christiaan Barnard”. “A Table is a Table” taught me that society has a norm, follow that, you’ll be happy. I think character/Moral/Ethics everything grows depending on what you’re surrounded by. In this painful phase of my life, I can easily cheat but I do know, one mistake of mine will completely change my moral compass, so I focus on something else.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Agree. It is a failure of character and a sign of emotional immaturity. All the self-centered, selfish, flight of fancy mindset of an adolescent. (Except many adolescents have more character than a WS. ) I guess character is something you are taught at a young age, so that when you grow up, you either have it or you don't. A true test of character is what you do when you know you won't get caught.


What surprises me is that what might be the reason for the failure of character and emotional immaturity? It looks like the population of cheaters are growing and something is missing? Or people in-general are looking for extra kick from the life.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

John2012 said:


> What surprises me is that what might be the reason for the failure of character and emotional immaturity? It looks like the population of cheaters are growing and something is missing? Or people in-general are looking for extra kick from the life.


I think it's a combination of factors. The ease of "cheating" now - with social networking. That allows an EA to start much easier than before. I don't think the percentage of people capable of cheating has grown, just the mechanisms to enable cheating have grown. So people who may have wanted to cheat, but didn't are now able to start an EA fairly easily. It's as easy as hitting the Send button.

And people can regress as they get older. Formerly confident people can grow insecure with age. My wife is a good example. When we married, she was young (so was I when you think about it) - but mature and confident. As she aged, she began to stress over every wrinkle, every spot on her face. She started hanging out with a younger crowd of equally vain friends which only made her feel older. You posted earlier about external validation and that is spot on. My wife KNEW that I thought she was gorgeous, but that wasn't enough. She needed another opinion because she thought that my love for her biased my view of her "beauty". And I didn't help because when she spent hours (literally) on her face I would always comment that she looked good without makeup. She did, but my comments annoyed her - as if I did not care that she wanted to look even better. Lipo, breast augmentation, laser peels, botox... my wife did all of this. And she was always good looking.

So her EA/PA was partly to validate that she was still attractive. The POSOM was 13 years younger, good looking, unfortunately married with a 1 year old and a 3 year old and a serial cheater. But it made my STBXW feel excited and wanted (even though he was cheating on my wife during their affair).

And she was looking for that "extra kick". It was all about her and "enjoying life". This meant acting like she was single, but still being able to enjoy family time on her terms. Major cake eating. And the most pathetic thing is that she thinks that she has outgrown the marriage because she has become a "confident, modern woman". Now she is actively seeking a man 13 years younger - not thinking about that this man was 10 years old when we got married and will be 47 when my wife turns 60! Yeah, that will work out really well, I'm sure....


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I think it's a combination of factors. The ease of "cheating" now - with social networking. That allows an EA to start much easier than before. I don't think the percentage of people capable of cheating has grown, just the mechanisms to enable cheating have grown. So people who may have wanted to cheat, but didn't are now able to start an EA fairly easily. It's as easy as hitting the Send button.
> 
> And people can regress as they get older. Formerly confident people can grow insecure with age. My wife is a good example. When we married, she was young (so was I when you think about it) - but mature and confident. As she aged, she began to stress over every wrinkle, every spot on her face. She started hanging out with a younger crowd of equally vain friends which only made her feel older. You posted earlier about external validation and that is spot on. My wife KNEW that I thought she was gorgeous, but that wasn't enough. She needed another opinion because she thought that my love for her biased my view of her "beauty". And I didn't help because when she spent hours (literally) on her face I would always comment that she looked good without makeup. She did, but my comments annoyed her - as if I did not care that she wanted to look even better. Lipo, breast augmentation, laser peels, botox... my wife did all of this. And she was always good looking.
> 
> ...


Ugh, Cedarman. What an ordeal. 

Your story is mirrored by so many here. People say there is a definable pattern, a script, and there is no doubt about it. There is. But this is only for certain types of women. Hordes of women simply do not do this when they begin to get older. There is, of course, the male corollary to this, which is the standard secret office affair. And lately there are more and more stories about men with 'porn addictions' now that the internet makes it so easy not just to view porn, but to have virtual sex and to hook up with prostitutes.

So, we come to the issue of personality and character & whether we can ever know for sure how a person will develop as the years go on. My son always agonizes over his ability to hit on the right formula for success & I always tell him that there is nothing foolproof; you just have to prejudice things in your favor & move ahead. I think that's the best we can do in love as well. You have to admit that some of the stories of failure on this site were train wrecks well before the actual adultery was discovered - people write things like 'I caught her lying and having sex with her ex 3 times before we were married and she was really irresponsible about money and didn't seem to like kids, but I thought she was over that.' This is not stacking the deck in your favor if you start out with that.

But even if we do the best we can for ourselves regarding character, there are still no guarantees. Just taking your best shot. Even with the uncertainty out there about marriages failing, we still mostly want to do it.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I think it's a combination of factors. The ease of "cheating" now - with social networking. That allows an EA to start much easier than before. I don't think the percentage of people capable of cheating has grown, just the mechanisms to enable cheating have grown. So people who may have wanted to cheat, but didn't are now able to start an EA fairly easily. It's as easy as hitting the Send button.
> 
> And people can regress as they get older. Formerly confident people can grow insecure with age. My wife is a good example. When we married, she was young (so was I when you think about it) - but mature and confident. As she aged, she began to stress over every wrinkle, every spot on her face. She started hanging out with a younger crowd of equally vain friends which only made her feel older. You posted earlier about external validation and that is spot on. My wife KNEW that I thought she was gorgeous, but that wasn't enough. She needed another opinion because she thought that my love for her biased my view of her "beauty". And I didn't help because when she spent hours (literally) on her face I would always comment that she looked good without makeup. She did, but my comments annoyed her - as if I did not care that she wanted to look even better. Lipo, breast augmentation, laser peels, botox... my wife did all of this. And she was always good looking.
> 
> ...


Another Major drawback I've seen in my WS is the limitations of hobbies. Except for trying to look young, FB chatting, external validation from married men, trying to rescue men/women except her family and watching movies, her life gets empty very soon. 

The reason I don't feel like cheating is I keep expanding my hobby zone. I get curious about everything, from music to voyager journey to participating in kids life.

Even though I get enough of external validations for my own talents but hobbies give me the extra-kick I need.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Once the line is already crossed we already know the affair love is way more intense and validating, there's a buch of tricks as mirroring, mtutal fantasy feeding, filling holes your AP hints, not tested or "polluted" by day to day reality... but there's another piece about why AP attention is more valitading, makes affair love more addictive and enhace the feeling they are "soulmates": the secret bond of being conspirators. Nobody but AP can understand, share it. They accept each other as nobody can. I found out this piece (don't remember where) about AP's validation bery interesting:


> *Why the attention of the OP is more "validating"*
> Infidelity really does revolve around an inability to achieve self acceptance IMO. This is what lies behind the need for external validation - it is even what is behind the inability to accept the validation of one's spouse. It's the key.
> When we lack the ability to accept ourselves (our whole selves, flaws and all) - it's because we hide from our flaws. We try to deny them, overcompensate for them, ignore them, and run from them. In a real relationship, one that lasts years - we share living space with someone day in and day out - our own imperfections come out. If we haven't accepted the fact that we aren't perfect, if we strive for perfection (continually failing - because no one is perfect), when we refuse to accept our imperfections, it is very hard to believe that the person who sees us in the morning at our worst, morning breath and all - really loves us for who we are. If we can't love ourselves for who we really are, we will never really be able to believe anyone else will either.
> The reasons affairs become addictive, the reasons the "validation" of the OP feels real - is not only because the relationship is new, it's not only because they don't smell our "morning breath" or see us at our worst - it's also because the very moment we are aware of the nature of the affair (the horribly monstrously selfish action of cheating) we also receive "acceptance" for doing this terrible thing - from the person doing the terrible thing with us.
> ...


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Acabado said:


> The lying after DDay is a desperate attempt to avoid facing the horror of what really happened reflected in the BS's eyes. It's a futile attempt to "preserve" some semblance of an "image" the WS can live with.
> 
> When a WS can't enforce NC because they're afraid of "hurting the OP's feelings" - what they are really afraid of is seeing disapproval of the OP - a "nonapproving self image" reflected back at them.
> 
> ...


Perfectly said..


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Well,you had true love and pure love, with her affair she has smashed your heart and given you painful love.
> 
> Or is that not what she means?
> 
> It's my guess she decided to have an affair, or found herself having an affair and tried to justify it to herself with hippy dippy meaningless psychobabble.


The most painful part was the way I was treated during the height of affair. I felt I'm in a Nazi concentration camp, very painful. I can't forget the emotional distance, silence treatment, abuse, fights and pure hatred for me which my WS had during that period.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

John2012 said:


> The most painful part was the way I was treated during the height of affair. I felt I'm in a Nazi concentration camp, very painful. I can't forget the emotional distance, silence treatment, abuse, fights and pure hatred for me which my WS had during that period.


How are you able to look past this treatment by your WW in order to R?
Not being snarky, just curious how you can forgive the affair AND her ill treatment of you.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> How are you able to look past this treatment by your WW in order to R?
> Not being snarky, just curious how you can forgive the affair AND her ill treatment of you.


We're not in R and I can't forgive the affair AND her ill treatment towards me. I'll say that it's brutal, I've seen the most cold-blood character trait of my WS. No one should be a BS for whatever fault in the marriage maybe. 

Especially she was hand-in-hand with the OM and the planning and execution was what killed my soul.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

John2012 said:


> We're not in R and I can't forgive the affair AND her ill treatment towards me. I'll say that it's brutal, I've seen the most cold-blood character trait of my WS. No one should be a BS for whatever fault in the marriage maybe.
> 
> Especially she was hand-in-hand with the OM and the planning and execution was what killed my soul.


When I see WW instead of STBXW, I think there is an R going on.
From what you have described about your wife, I can very readily see why you are not in an R.
Interesting how an affair literally brings out the worst in waywards, it's as if you can finally see their true colors, you know the ones they hid because if you had known before, you would have run for the hills, screaming.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

John2012 said:


> I can't forget the emotional distance, silence treatment, abuse, fights and pure hatred for me which my WS had during that period.


I can relate to this. The other part I can't forget is how my STBXW has moved on post affair. She doesn't view it as a "mistake" - she thinks our marriage was in trouble and she did what made herself feel good. Then she lied about it for 3 years while we were in false R. A very cold analysis, given that she distanced herself not just from me, but from our children during her fling. I think she is hiding the "painful" part of her so called love for the OM. He was younger and my STBXW was not in his target demographic (other than for an easy roll in the hay). He ended up marrying a woman younger than him - actually cheated on his current wife (when she was his fiance) with my wife. My wife is having trouble dealing with this - and is actively seeking younger partners for her "soulmate". A little bit delusional, but maybe she'll find a guy who will love her when the Botox fails and the skin starts to sag (eg - when she is 60 and her new mate is mid-forties). 

The painful part for me is that I am still very much physically attracted to my STBXW - but I know that she is messed up emotionally.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey John

I thought up one word to describe your wife.

Selfish

You are not hence you have no need to get external validation from the opposite sex nor a desire to destroy your family.

HM64


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> I can relate to this. The other part I can't forget is how my STBXW has moved on post affair. She doesn't view it as a "mistake" - she thinks our marriage was in trouble and she did what made herself feel good. Then she lied about it for 3 years while we were in false R. A very cold analysis, given that she distanced herself not just from me, but from our children during her fling. I think she is hiding the "painful" part of her so called love for the OM. He was younger and my STBXW was not in his target demographic (other than for an easy roll in the hay). He ended up marrying a woman younger than him - actually cheated on his current wife (when she was his fiance) with my wife. My wife is having trouble dealing with this - and is actively seeking younger partners for her "soulmate". A little bit delusional, but maybe she'll find a guy who will love her when the Botox fails and the skin starts to sag (eg - when she is 60 and her new mate is mid-forties).
> 
> *The painful part for me is that I am still very much physically attracted to my STBXW - but I know that she is messed up emotionally*.


Cedar

I know this pain. But detach from her. Because her emotional pain is so great it can consume your family. Do not let that happen.

Find someone good. Find someone that loves themselves and has capacity to love others.

Your Ex loves no one including herself.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Cedar
> 
> I know this pain. But detach from her. Because her emotional pain is so great it can consume your family. Do not let that happen.
> 
> ...


hm64: Thanks, I am trying. But it's hard when I see her every week and we interact because of the kids. I know part of it is a "fogged" view of her by me - but physically there is still an attraction for me. She still "turns my crank" so to speak. From her perspective, she even admits that our sex was great - but she is no longer "in love" and she sees no going back. You're right about the loving herself though - she has real issues there. Very insecure, despite her looks and her success - which is one of the main reasons she sought external validation. She had a rough childhood (abusive dad, walk away mother), and I think this is one of the root problems... but her IC will never dig that deep.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> When I see WW instead of STBXW, I think there is an R going on.
> From what you have described about your wife, I can very readily see why you are not in an R.
> Interesting how an affair literally brings out the worst in waywards, it's as if you can finally see their true colors, you know the ones they hid because if you had known before, you would have run for the hills, screaming.


Now with all Affair fog gone, reality of life hitting, my STBXW is behaving like Mother Teresa. Honestly she was nice before but I don't know the reason for straying and I don't want to debug the fault hardware !!!


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> hm64: Thanks, I am trying. But it's hard when I see her every week and we interact because of the kids. I know part of it is a "fogged" view of her by me - but physically there is still an attraction for me. She still "turns my crank" so to speak. From her perspective, she even admits that our sex was great - but she is no longer "in love" and she sees no going back. You're right about the loving herself though - she has real issues there. Very insecure, despite her looks and her success - which is one of the main reasons she sought external validation. She had a rough childhood (abusive dad, walk away mother), and I think this is one of the root problems... but her IC will never dig that deep.


You're in painful love phase . My STBXW is also very insecure despite her looks and her success and she had a very good childhood, so I don't know the root problem here.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey Cedar and John

I can understand the attraction to the ex's as well as them becoming nice again in the future when the fog is gone.

But they are useless to you or themselves unless they are remorseful, willing to dig deep into themselves and fix their issues.

Very few ever dig deep into themselves nor do the heavy lifting required.

Time

Time heals you if you let it. Give yourself as much space from them as you can so you cannot be hurt anymore.

And then observe.

Do not listen to what they as much as watch what they do, how they interact with your children and others.

And take care of yourselves because no one else will.....

Here is to a better year for you guys......

HM64


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

John2012 said:


> Now with all Affair fog gone, reality of life hitting, my STBXW is behaving like Mother Teresa. Honestly she was nice before but I don't know the reason for straying and I don't want to debug the fault hardware !!!


And any time you start to feel weak, remember the hell she put you through, the emotional turmoil that she wreaked in your life.
Too bad, so sad for her that now that real life has kicked her in the ass, she wants to play nice.
The affair was bad enough, but the pain she wrought was some kind of added kick for her.
I think the person you saw during the affair is the real her, that person you see now is the fake her.


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