# Reasonable expectations/guidelines



## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

So while I am not 100% that my wife "consummated" an extrmarital affair, I know for a fact that she was seeing another man for a couple months; lunches, drinks after work, etc. I found the emails, texts and voicemails - nothing indicates actual sex, just some romance...but I could be wrong.

Anyway, a little background - I pretty much drove her to someone else, and am fortunate she decided to stay. I say this because for about 10 years I have pretty much ignored her, forgotten anniversaries, minimized birthdays, all but done nothing for Mothers Day, avoided her mom, and basically made her feel worthless...IOW, I was a very bad, immature husband. Not excusing her behavior, but I hae to be fair about this - I was, in a word, awful.

I do love her; I think she is beautiful, smart, funny and a good mother. But I don't trust her as far as I can throw her right now. Suffice it to say that there was a recent event with said man that brought us together like we haven't been for years. She was scared, I was scared, and we "realized" that we really do love each other. We are going to try to make this work with some professional help. Who knows, it may vvery well fall flat, but we are willing to try.

My question to the group is this: what is fair game in terms of monitoring her communication, her whereabouts, etc.? I have no delusions that I can police this relationship back to health, but I also can't live with the constant paranoia. She knows I am looking at her phone and reconciling it with the online statement - numbers called, texted, etc. No amount of oversight/controlling is going to change where we are right now, and if she wants to cheat, she is going to. I just am confused on how to handle the day-to-day stuff. Any thoughts are welcome.

Thx,

EGS


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Wow, she cheats and it is all your fault??

The way you describe yourself, you sound like a lousy husband. Do you think lowly of yourself in general? 

Do you have kids? I'm guessing yes since you mention mother's day. How old, etc.

How long have you been married?

If you want to reconcile, she'll need to want it also. You both need serious MC and probably some IC as well.

Is she remorseful for the affair and transparent? You should do whatever monitoring you want to. I would suggest getting a VAR. Weightlifter has an excellent post on how to do it if you search for it. Follow the instructions carefully.

You have a long way to go. She must go NC with her other man. What do you know of him? Is he married? If yes, be sure that you out him.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Try reading this one and follow it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

workindad said:


> Is she remorseful for the affair and transparent?


OP, are you remorseful for the neglect and transparent? How should she hold you accountable?

You need to decide together how to rebuild your marriage. You cannot watch her all of the time. Your trust in each other is going to have to be re-earned, by both of you.

I am glad you both realize what you contributed to the situation. You are more likely than most to rebuild, I think.


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

workindad said:


> Wow, she cheats and it is all your fault??
> 
> The way you describe yourself, you sound like a lousy husband. Do you think lowly of yourself in general?
> 
> ...


Very perceptive! I was a lousy husband, no doubt - I made that clear. We've been married 10 years, together 15. She is remorseful and transparent, yes. We have agreed to some counseling - if we didn't think it would help, we would walk. But yes, we have two kids, aged 8 and 10. As far as outing the other guy, I've though about it; my wife gave me her phone to call him (a positive move) and I called him to see if he would answer, no answer. I texted him telling him who I was and that I needed to talk to him. No answer. He is scared and the only way I will be able to confront him is in person, and I don't think that will help anyone. As far as letting his wife in on it, I did tell him by text that if I see his number on my bill, call/text or email, I will deliver everything I have to his wife. 

The only benefit I can see in outing the guy is vengeance. If I end up getting divorced over this, rest assured, it will all come out.

She claims she wants to reconcile, as well. We shall see. Thanks


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

workindad said:


> Try reading this one and follow it.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


I happened to read it earlier. It's good stuff for someone who is looking to gather evidence, which I have already done, but I'm not interested in going to those extremes - it will come out in the wash soon enough if she is still cheating. If she refuses to go to counseling, if she starts going out for drinks after work, if I don't see any expenditures on her debit card for lunches, etc. But the bottom line is this - I have to go with what she says right now, which is that she wants to work it out.


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

jld said:


> OP, are you remorseful for the neglect and transparent? How should she hold you accountable?
> 
> You need to decide together how to rebuild your marriage. You cannot watch her all of the time. Your trust in each other is going to have to be re-earned, by both of you.
> 
> I am glad you both realize what you contributed to the situation. You are more likely than most to rebuild, I think.


More remorseful that you know, and not just because of the trist - I was a LOUSY husband...good father, lousy spouse. The "affair" was simply rock-bottom. I just hope I/we haven't damaged the marriage beyond repair. We shall see.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

E. Guido Soda said:


> More remorseful that you know, and not just because of the trist - I was a LOUSY husband...good father, lousy spouse. The "affair" was simply rock-bottom. I just hope I/we haven't damaged the marriage beyond repair. We shall see.


You are a gem, OP. Most betrayed husbands are stuck in blame, bitterness, and resentment.

With that kind of self-awareness, I have lots of hope for you, and your marriage.

Meet her deepest emotional needs. That is the key to winning back your wife, and healing her heart.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

You should let his wife know. She has a right to know, just like you do.

What has your wife said when you asked if it was physical?

I suspect it was physical, can't imagine the other man sticking around for a while if he wasn't getting something out of it, but that is my thought process. 

You should probably get STD tests done to protect your health.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP, google, "How to meet your wife's emotional needs". That should give you lots of good ideas.

And again, good for you not to get trapped in victimhood!


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

I hate it when the OP blames themselves for whatever bad decisions their spouses make.

You can be a terrible husband or wife, but it's never your fault when your spouse decides to cheat.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

jld said:


> You are a gem, OP. Most betrayed husbands are stuck in blame, bitterness, and resentment.
> 
> With that kind of self-awareness, I have lots of hope for you, and your marriage.
> 
> Meet her deepest emotional needs. That is the key to winning back your wife, and healing her heart.




I have to disagree with this. I would not expect being nice to someone as a successful strategy to get them out of an affair and back to you.

You sound like you are looking for a way to rug sweep. I hope that is not the case.

You are not to blame for your wife's decision. She is an adult and she own's responsibility for her actions just like you do.

If you wish to R, then I hope the very best for you and your family.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

nickgtg said:


> I hate it when the OP blames themselves for whatever bad decisions their spouses make.
> 
> You can be a terrible husband or wife, but it's never your fault when your spouse decides to cheat.


:iagree::iagree:


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

workindad said:


> You should let his wife know. She has a right to know, just like you do.
> 
> What has your wife said when you asked if it was physical?
> 
> ...


The problem with briging his wife into it is that it will only prolong this whole disaster. She will no doubt contact my wife, who most certainly wants to part of that, it opens the door for him to start talking to my wife again, as he has nothing to lose now, and I risk losing my wife over it. It's not a good idea, it isn't worth it......unless I lose everything over this. Then it is game on.

As for STD's....my wife is a brilliant woman; IF there was intercourse, it was protected. But I tend to believe there wasn't.

Thx


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

E. Guido Soda said:


> The problem with briging his wife into it is that it will only prolong this whole disaster. She will no doubt contact my wife, who most certainly wants to part of that, it opens the door for him to start talking to my wife again, as he has nothing to lose now, and I risk losing my wife over it. It's not a good idea, it isn't worth it......unless I lose everything over this. Then it is game on.
> 
> As for STD's....*my wife is a brilliant woman; IF there was intercourse, it was protected. * But I tend to believe there wasn't.
> 
> Thx


If your wife was that brilliant, she wouldn't have cheated and would have found a way to re-engage you in the marriage on the front end or just divorced you. Also, you did catch her, correct?

Most stories of affair sex are not protected. Your wife isn't that special. You need to get rid of the pedestal.

Good luck
WD


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

nickgtg said:


> I hate it when the OP blames themselves for whatever bad decisions their spouses make.
> 
> You can be a terrible husband or wife, but it's never your fault when your spouse decides to cheat.


Certainly not my fault that she made that choice, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that had I been more attentive to her needs, treated her better, been a better husband, those odds would have been decresed exponentially, brother.

I'll give you an example: we moved to California where we knew _no one_. I am in sales and so met lots of people right off the bat; she was stuck in an office full of people with which she had nothing in common. I spent all of my free time with vendors and co-workers on the golf course and in bars while she sat at home. She got pregnant. I didn't want a child. She begged and begged me to go to counseling with her to discuss the change in life - I refused to go. that's just one piece of it...I was a grade A a$$hole. Again, she could have put her foot down in a different way, but I can't hold her completely responsible.


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

workindad said:


> If your wife was that brilliant, she wouldn't have cheated and would have found a way to re-engage you in the marriage on the front end or just divorced you. Also, you did catch her, correct?
> 
> Most stories of affair sex are not protected. Your wife isn't that special. You need to get rid of the pedestal.
> 
> ...


OK, buddy, you've been very helpful. Thx.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

workindad said:


> I have to disagree with this. I would not expect being nice to someone as a successful strategy to get them out of an affair and back to you.
> 
> You sound like you are looking for a way to rug sweep. I hope that is not the case.
> 
> ...


You are welcome to disagree.  I certainly do not think being mean to her is going to improve the situation.

This affair is a symptom of a deeper problem: the disconnect in the couple. It could have shown itself in alcoholism, overspending, overeating, sexlessness, etc. It manifested as an affair.

The only way this marriage is going to heal is by looking hard at the disconnect, and repairing it.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

I'd be willing to bet if you contacted the OM's wife the affair would stop. The OM doesn't want to lose his family, otherwise he'd already have divorced his wife. You need to listen to what we're telling you to do, not what you feel is right or what you think might happen.

Your story is repeated here day after day after day. You were a bad husband, okay, you've admitted that. That doesn't excuse your wife's behavior. If she was unhappy she could have divorced you. You know why she didn't? You're her backup plan. You provide a salary, a home, a car, spending money, etc...

Your wife isn't special, I'm sorry if that hurts to read. She's not the same woman you married. 

Your marriage can be saved if both of you agree to work on it. You say you can't trust her? Trust me, that trust isn't ever coming back completely. Can you deal with that?

Expose the affair. If you do expose it and your wife gets mad, what does that say about her feelings towards you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If it were not this guy, it would be a different one. Someone is going to meet those needs, and the OP wants it to be him.

Tie your wife to you by meeting her deepest emotional needs. That is the only "security" you will have.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Quick question... Who is OM to your wife? Ex-boyfriend? Co-worker or supervisor? Kids' soccer coach? Neighbor?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Unfortunately, this one seems ripe for a good episode of rugsweeping.

A guilt-ridden BS, who thinks the A is primarily a function of HIS choices.

A BH who does not want to admit the level of deception and manipulation his WW engaged in to to betray her vows and willingly put her children's family at risk of destruction...basically accepting her stories of no PA cause its 'not like her'.

A BH who is making decisions out of fear, rather than doing what is both necessary and just to truly resolve this A once and for all-won't tell POS's BW even though she deserves the truth too and it will almost assuredly bring the A to a screeching halt cause that may mean his M will end and he will return to finish stealing OP's WW.

Rugsweep express...full speed ahead.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Yep, the WS has the OP by the you know what and will cake eat until her stomach is full. They never want to really hear what they should do it seems. I get it, it's hard in the beginning.


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## emilymathews (Jul 29, 2014)

You can talk to her directly about this & bring the solution. I think this is the Best way to deal with the situation.:scratchhead:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Interesting. Well, I'll give you the standard response:



> So while I am not 100% that my wife "consummated" an extrmarital affair, *I know for a fact* that she was seeing *another man for a couple months;** lunches, drinks after work, etc. *I found the emails, texts and voicemails - nothing indicates actual sex, just some romance...but I could be wrong.[/U][/B]


They had sex. Since we already had the male generalization dropped, here is another one. Most men do not sniff around a woman, with ROMANCE included, without some type of sexual reciprocation.

I found this interesting:


> Suffice it to say that there was a recent event with said man that brought us together like we haven't been for years. She was scared, I was scared, and we "realized" that we really do love each other.


Good luck.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Enjoy blaming yourself and rug-sweeping this. Keep your user credentials, you'll need them in a decade or so when the resentment and rage becomes too much to handle.

P.S.
They had sex.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You cant excuse her affair for your actions. You cant justify your future actions for not being a good husband on her affair. You didn’t drive her to OM. She had numerous other options to address the problems and chose the one that would not fix or repair a marriage.

The weaknesses in a marriage is a two way street. Your playing the white knight as many BS do trying to justify the actions of the spouse. You must hold her completely responsible for her actions just as she is entitled to hold you responsible for your actions. It’s the best long term solution. 

You aren’t lucky she stayed, she is lucky you didn’t leave. You are willing to work on the issues, you know what you need to work on to be a better husband/person. Getting cool birthday presents doesn’t fix a marriage. 

The very reason people suggest you contact the OM wife and expose the affair is to help police the situation. You can only look and check on your wifes activities. The OM wife may know far more than you know about what is really going on. Calling the OM is useless, he wont talk to you and threats to tell his wife are more idle threats. If they want to cheat they will just get sneakier and yes you cant play police all the time. Having another set of eyes on the OP helps break up the affair or keep it from starting again. Its not vengeance, its insuring accidents don’t happen so to speak. 

If she wants to reconcile you will need to get the full story. You probably haven’t received it yet and it often takes time for it come completely out. Its called trickle truth and it happens far too often. Right now she has no incentive to tell you everything, the more you find out the less inclined you will be to R. The two of you can repair you marriage but you must hold each other responsible and accountable and it takes work.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

OP does not sound focused on policing and punishing. He sounds like he really wants to solve the problem: her lack of attraction to him.

All the control techniques in the world will not fix that. Meeting her deepest emotional needs could. 

It really is up to him, and he knows it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I'd be interested to knmow what happned that drove her back to you. Your main protection is killing the affair. Did that kill the affair with ceratinty? The reason you tell his wife is not vengeance but to futher kill the affair. Make the rat cling to his own raft and push your wife off of it type of thing.

The bottom line is you have to meet her needs. But you cannot give her a free pass in not having to meet your needs. I think this is what everyone is worried about. You take all the blame and do all the work. That is a certain disaster for you in that she will realize you are weak and will cheat again, since the resuts are so good for her.

Regarding monitoring her communcation, you have to do it to whatever degree you feel safe. You have to give here the option of leaving if she does not like it. You have to point out that if she does not like it, then she should not have cheated which is the cause of it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hicks said:


> The bottom line is you have to meet her needs.


This is it.

If he does not do this, it will just be a different man doing it.

You cannot control another person. They _will _get their needs met. Make sure you are the one doing it.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

Meet her needs. Yes. 

But conversely, she needs to quit lying and come completely clean as to the extent of the affair. You know in your gut it went physical, but unless you require her to reveal all, you will only be rug sweeping and the same thing will happen years from now. Because you never held her accountable.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

jld said:


> This is it.
> 
> If he does not do this, it will just be a different man doing it.
> 
> You cannot control another person. They _will _get their needs met. Make sure you are the one doing it.


And she needs to bind his wounds and help him heal from her cruel treatment. Marriage counseling is fine and his neglectful behavior must be addressed. But he is bleeding right now and she needs to stop the flow. The only way is for her to come completely clean, or else she will be jerking the stitches loose with trickle truthing. The only counseling he should be getting right now is PTSD counseling. She needs to get into IC and learns thing or two about her sorry boundaries.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She does not _have _ to do anything, BB. Neither does he.

I think he really wants to keep her. I am trying to show him how.

Think about a salesman, BB. He can't force a customer to buy from him. All the crying and whining and self-righteousness in the world is not going to change what the customer does. He can only persuade the customer. 

When it comes right down to it, adult relationships are a free market. We can talk right and wrong all we want, but ultimately people are looking to have their needs met.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

jld said:


> She does not _have _ to do anything, BB. Neither does he.
> 
> I think he really wants to keep her. I am trying to show him how.
> 
> ...


Well, from experience all I can say is I was meeting every one of my ex-wife's needs and she still cheated on me. I was a good husband.

The only need I wasn't meeting was her need for meth. She went to her OM for that.

But you're right. If she no longer wants to shop at her husband's market she can go elsewhere. I guess his pain doesn't matter though. You have a bit of a cruel streak in you jld.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> Well, from experience all I can say is I was meeting every one of my ex-wife's needs and she still cheated on me. I was a good husband.
> 
> The only need I wasn't meeting was her need for meth. She went to her OM for that.
> 
> But you're right. If she no longer wants to shop at her husband's market she can go elsewhere. I guess his pain doesn't matter though. You have a bit of a cruel streak in you jld.


It is not to be cruel, BB. It is to be realistic. People cannot make wise decisions when they are in a fog. I am trying to clear the fog.

There is no shame in realizing you can't meet her needs. And her needs may not be legit. A serial cheater might be in that category. Better to give up trying.

But ultimately, you cannot force anything. You can only persuade and try to uncover the deepest needs. It takes really studying her, really getting to know her.

And no one is forced to take on the challenge!


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Speaking from experience here.

You need to let go. Period.

The more you control, the better she hides. It will be so much harder for you to verify your suspicions, if you make her get more creative in sneaking things past you. 

You said it right: if she wants to cheat, she will find a way, and you cannot stop it. You will sense if it starts again - no need to see it on her phone or e-mail. You will see that she started hiding things from you, etc... Then you may want to check into her phone. 

But most importantly, it's not so much HER issue right now, as it is YOURS. No one knows if she is going to cheat again or not, but it's clear that you contracted paranoia - anyone would. So, you need to work on yourself and your own peace of mind. 

If you start controlling her, then you will empower your own paranoia and it's just an endless circle: the more you control, the more you suspect, the more you want to control... It will never end. 

Stop this right now, when you still can. Go back to normal life with a few corrections to your own behavior, where you see the problem. And live happily ever after. Trust will come overtime when you see that she is in fact with you and no one else. No amount of control will give you that.


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## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

There is no way I would let him off the hook by not exposing him to his wife......Who the hell is he to do what he did and not be busted for it. I wish I had the opportunity in my case but the jerk wasn't with anyone else. The only thing I could do was threaten his life.

Don't blame yourself either, once she knows you blame yourself it will make her feel justified in her affair. Stand your ground brother.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

E. Guido Soda said:


> As far as letting his wife in on it, I did tell him by text that if I see his number on my bill, call/text or email, I will deliver everything I have to his wife.


That's a classic mistake that a number of BS's make; bargaining with the POS that banged your wife because you're afraid that he won't stay away from her. Your attitude should be that since you have given your wife the gift of a second chance; if she resumes contact with him again, he can damn well have her. Worry about her actions, not his.

You expose him to his wife. Period. She deserves to know, he deserves the consequence and your wife needs to accept that consequence. Make him regret that he chose *YOUR* wife.

As for as meeting your wife's needs; absolutely you need to do that if your R is going to be successful. But only *AFTER* you are satisfied that she has accepted consequences for her actions, is willing to do the heavy lifting, and is demonstrating complete remorse.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

E. Guido Soda said:


> So while I am not 100% that my wife "consummated" an extrmarital affair, I know for a fact that she was seeing another man for a couple months; lunches, drinks after work, etc. I found the emails, texts and voicemails - nothing indicates actual sex, just some romance...but I could be wrong.
> 
> Anyway, a little background - I pretty much drove her to someone else, and am fortunate she decided to stay. I say this because for about 10 years I have pretty much ignored her, forgotten anniversaries, minimized birthdays, all but done nothing for Mothers Day, avoided her mom, and basically made her feel worthless...IOW, I was a very bad, immature husband. Not excusing her behavior, but I hae to be fair about this - I was, in a word, awful.
> 
> ...


Guido you mention "a recent event." What was it that tipped you off that something might be up? I do wish you and your lady much happiness. I think, now that you understand the problems your distance caused, that you'll more than make up for it and she will be the wife you love and cherish. Good luck to you both. :smthumbup:


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

So now monitoring and setting boundaries after cheating is now being controlling and control techniques?

*WTF?*


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

rubymoon; said:


> Stop this right now, when you still can. Go back to normal life with a few corrections to your own behavior, where you see the problem. And live happily ever after. Trust will come overtime when you see that she is in fact with you and no one else. No amount of control will give you that.


Oh just go back to a normal life huh? 

It doesn't work that way. Sounds like you want him to rug sweep,the whole thing. If,she has no consequences or repercussions from what she has done, then how will she learn.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> So now monitoring and setting boundaries after cheating is now being controlling and control techniques?
> 
> *WTF?*


That seems to be the new mantra with many posters here on TAM now. My how this place has changed in just the last few months!


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> So now monitoring and setting boundaries after cheating is now being controlling and control techniques?


Why does it matter how you call it? It is what it is...


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

BashfulBull said:


> Oh just go back to a normal life huh?
> 
> 
> It doesn't work that way. Sounds like you want him to rug sweep,the whole thing. If,she has no consequences or repercussions from what she has done, then how will she learn.


I agree BashfulBull,

It's not often we see posters advising a BS to rug sweep an A; and for good reason. It's terrible advice.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

It's very important to know how she knows the om and how you caught her in order to give you good advice.

JLD your advice is marriage builders plan a. It's never been shown to work her. Someone posts it works ten percent of the time at marriage builders . What you are suggesting is just rugs weeping.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> Why does it matter how you call it? It is what it is...


Completely wrong again.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> Why does it matter how you call it? It is what it is...


What you advocate is rugsweeping. I've reviewed your posts, which is easy since you just registered this month. It seems you don't have much experience with infidelity and mostly post in the sex forum. Are you a BS? Because if you aren't then you have no idea.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

BashfulBull said:


> Oh just go back to a normal life huh?
> 
> It doesn't work that way. Sounds like you want him to rug sweep,the whole thing. If,she has no consequences or repercussions from what she has done, then how will she learn.



What is she 7 to be tought and punished? Does she really need to learn anything? Once again, is she 5 to not know that it's bad to do what she did?

Controlling her is not really a lesson of any sort. It's just something that she will tolerate for a while and then leave him. Their connection is broken as it is. Make the situation worse and it will break completely - this is NOT OP's intention. 

And this nonsense with "teaching her a lesson"... she either knows it all already and will regret what she did for the rest of her life - mostly, regret hurting her husband. Or she is dumb and shallow and no lessons will change that. If she is truely sorry for what she did, then it's a punishment enough for her! If not, then it will break again controlling or not. Time will only show... 

If you actually want to punish her, then take away the money, if you are the provider. Move out or at least get disengaged and show her you don't care about her. I don't know... cheat back if you are so big on punishments?.. That will be a punishment because it will hurt. Controlling will only annoy and make OP sooooooooo unattractive... ewwwww...


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## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

Folks, I think we might have lost the OP. 

It is good that he understands that he's responsible for the reasons his wife was unhappy before the affair. That's a big step. However, she could have chosen other ways of making her unhappiness known. I would have made my husband understand that I was miserable and that we needed to fix our relationship, or I was out. If he refused counseling, after all that, I'd have filed.

Only then after significant separation would I have chosen other male companionship. 

Nobody is slamming you or your wife. We just want you to see that she's responsible for her part in this.

Want the other man to go away? Fast? Permanently? Inform his wife that he's been fooling around with your wife. With proof, if possible. He will throw your wife under the bus so fast it will make her head spin.

The other man's wife deserves to know. And, when OM is gone you two can start repairing your relationship.

It sounds like you're in. If you want your wife in, you have to break the affair.

Only the best to you,
FH


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> Unfortunately, this one seems ripe for a good episode of rugsweeping.
> 
> A guilt-ridden BS, who thinks the A is primarily a function of HIS choices.
> 
> ...





jld said:


> She does not _have _ to do anything, BB. Neither does he.
> 
> I think he really wants to keep her. I am trying to show him how.
> 
> ...



Well, OP did state that he's a salesman.

That's what a good salesman does. He frames the situation. To be successful, he gets the customer to buy.

In this case, perhaps he can convince himself too.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

rubymoon said:


> And this nonsense with "teaching her a lesson"... she either knows it all already and will regret what she did for the rest of her life - mostly, regret hurting her husband. Or she is dumb and shallow and no lessons will change that. *If she is truely sorry for what she did, then it's a punishment enough for her!*


Wow.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

badmemory said:


> Wow.


This one knows nothing of infidelity. The "controlling" card is usually played by WSs.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> What you advocate is rugsweeping. I've reviewed your posts, which is easy since you just registered this month. It seems you don't have much experience with infidelity and mostly post in the sex forum. Are you a BS? Because if you aren't then you have no idea.


LOL - I am flattered you conducted such thorough analysis of me. 

I do have experience with infidelity. Not recent - thanks God! It was years ago - hence, I kinda have an idea how it works if the goal is to stay together.

What's BS?


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> This one knows nothing of infidelity. The "controlling" card is usually played by WSs.


But the important part is that YOU know EVERYTHING about ME. *rolling my eyes*

I can use another word - what word would you like better? It won't change what I am saying though...


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"It's not often we see posters advising a BS to rug sweep an A; and for good reason. It's terrible advice."

badmemory,

I agree its not advice we see often HERE...but I know of at least one other site where it is almost a mantra.

Don't hold your WS accountable for the horrid damage they have done to their partner and family....accountability will just drain their loving feelings away.

They even advocate doing this AND showing loving attention to a WS in an ACTIVELY ongoing A.

People here are right though IMO...and all it takes to see that is to spend some time skimming through the MB boards/threads to see how often it ends in even further pain and humiliation for the BS with nothing to show for it as far as a reconciled M goes.

I suppose and believe their plan might work for some people, but only with such a dose of desperate, self-inflicted humiliation and pain, that I know I personally could never even look at myself in the mirror ever again if I did it, even if I did get the WS to finally come back.

But some people are willing to trade all their pride and self-respect as long as they get to keep the 'treasure' that is their WS.

Hey....its a free world...whatever makes them happy I guess.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

In my mind, there are only two ways out of the situation:

Try to forgive and forget, and move on together
Leave the cheater and move on alone

I did the second one. Long story with over a decade of separation... la-la-la... doesn't matter. 

Calling the OW/OM spouse, informing their employer (comes from another thread), running around the town screaming how horrible of the person your SO is... IMHO is a behavior that won't fix anything. It will only make you look pathetic. 

If you are a strong person - leave. If you stay, then you will need even more strength to forgive and forget. If you stay and won't forgive and forget, then you are weak and pathetic. Sorry - just the way I personally see it.


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## WatchmansMoon (Mar 6, 2013)

Guys, EGS is taking responsibility for his obvious part (whether significant or not) in the breakdown of his marriage. If there's infidelity, whether sexual or emotional, it has to be worked on TOGETHER as a couple. ESG's taken a huge first step in reconciling his marriage, and I too, am quite hopeful that this marriage will survive. WSG's attitude alone is going to be a huge factor in that, so why would others dump on him for it? 

:iagree: completely with jld ~ you each would do well to come to the reconciliation table with your own conditions. Hers will likely be very different from yours, but can you both start the process with these? A great book that could be helpful as well is "Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved: 12 Truths for Rescuing Your Relationship" ~ it's written from a spiritual perspective if that matters to you or not, but has some great advice to help guide you through this process. You may also want to invest in marriage counseling. HUGS and blessings to you!

*~ Seek the Light ~*


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Wrote a long post and lost it....F*ck!!!

Summarizing.


1) You very likely do not know the full extent of your wife's affair.

Would anything change if you find out if they were physical ? What about once ? A few times ? Make your decisions based on the assumption that they had sex

2) it is very likely that it was a physical affair. Most BS that come here initially believe that their spouse's affair was a EA. You are no different . Google "trickle truth". Start reading about the cheaters script if you can.

3)She is human and people are prone to mistakes. her reasons to lie might be "to not hurt you much further"

4) Get tested for STDs regardless.

5) If the only reason OM won't go after your wife is because you threaten to expose the marriage otherwise is looking a bit pathetic. Remember, your wife should agree to cheat with him. If the only reason she won't leave you for her lover is because he is not interested, you don't have a marriage. Also, OM's wife is in a similar position as you are. tellling her is the decent ting to do. Don't make it a bargaining chip.

You can make your marriage better but first get all the facts on the table. New revelations will severely damage any progress that you guys made in the mean time. Right now, she probably has no incentive to tell you anything more that what she already has.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> What is she 7 to be tought and punished? Does she really need to learn anything? Once again, is she 5 to not know that it's bad to do what she did?
> 
> Controlling her is not really a lesson of any sort. It's just something that she will tolerate for a while and then leave him. Their connection is broken as it is. Make the situation worse and it will break completely - this is NOT OP's intention.
> 
> ...



Ewwwww?

Ok. 

I never used the word punish. I don't know why you feel the need to misquote. 

By consequences I actually meant asking her to quit her job if she works with the OM, or he or she should move out, requiring her to be transparent with her computer and phone, that he suspend all marital perks and benefits until he is sure she wants R. I also think he should file for divorce and see if she is willing to fight for her marriage. 

I wasn't talking about tying her arms and legs to four horses and pulling her apart.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

WatchmansMoon said:


> Guys, EGS is taking responsibility for his obvious part (whether significant or not) in the breakdown of his marriage. If there's infidelity, whether sexual or emotional, it has to be worked on TOGETHER as a couple. ESG's taken a huge first step in reconciling his marriage, and I too, am quite hopeful that this marriage will survive. WSG's attitude alone is going to be a huge factor in that, so why would others dump on him for it?
> 
> :iagree: completely with jld ~ you each would do well to come to the reconciliation table with your own conditions. Hers will likely be very different from yours, but can you both start the process with these? A great book that could be helpful as well is "Yes, Your Marriage Can Be Saved: 12 Truths for Rescuing Your Relationship" ~ it's written from a spiritual perspective if that matters to you or not, but has some great advice to help guide you through this process. You may also want to invest in marriage counseling. HUGS and blessings to you!


Who's dumping on him? 

Please provide one single quote where someone here has "dumped" on him. Are we reading the same thread?


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> In my mind, there are only two ways out of the situation:
> 
> Try to forgive and forget, and move on together
> Leave the cheater and move on alone
> ...


I did the same as you. I walked out and never looked back. Just because you and I chose to turn our backs on our WSs doesn't really grant us clout to say what the best way to reconcile is. 

I would ask you to consider the advice of the myriad of experienced posters here on TAM who advocate the tough love approach. There are folks here who have been through it all and they have empirical experience to show that taking the wayward to the edge of losing everything really is the best way to keep them honest.


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## WatchmansMoon (Mar 6, 2013)

workindad said:


> Wow, she cheats and it is all your fault??
> 
> The way you describe yourself, you sound like a lousy husband. Do you think lowly of yourself in general?





workindad said:


> Who's dumping on him?
> 
> Please provide one single quote where someone here has "dumped" on him. Are we reading the same thread?


I don't think there's anything wrong with owning up to whatever you did that may have contributed to a breakdown in the marriage. There's no excuse for infidelity, but, hey - both partners need to work in the reconciliation part. Maybe I'm a softee in my definition of "dumped on" - but I feel like OP's response has been stellar, and I'd never want to discourage someone from examining themselves and shortfalls and not just blaming the other entirely. Not trying to pick a fight either. Just sayin'

*~ Seek the Light ~*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BashfulBull said:


> Who's dumping on him?
> 
> Please provide one single quote where someone here has "dumped" on him. Are we reading the same thread?


I think we have been infested by cheater trolls. Either that or know it all with no experience.

Before giving advice folks should study other threads to see what works and what doesn't. Unless of course they are intentionally trying to sink these marriages.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

WatchmansMoon said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with owning up to whatever you did that may have contributed to a breakdown in the marriage. There's no excuse for infidelity, but, hey - both partners need to work in the reconciliation part. Maybe I'm a softee in my definition of "dumped on" - but I feel like OP's response has been stellar, and I'd never want to discourage someone from examining themselves and shortfalls and not just blaming the other entirely. Not trying to pick a fight either. Just sayin'
> 
> *~ Seek the Light ~*


Not one poster has suggested he not take responsibility for his actions in the past. Being a husband that is not doing a good job pales in comparison to a cheating wife/spouse. The two things are as different as daylight and dark.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

WatchmansMoon said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with owning up to whatever you did that may have contributed to a breakdown in the marriage. There's no excuse for infidelity, but, hey - both partners need to work in the reconciliation part. Maybe I'm a softee in my definition of "dumped on" - but I feel like his response has been stellar, and I'd never want to discourage someone from examining themselves and shortfalls and not just blaming the other entirely. Not trying to pick a fight either. Just sayin'
> 
> *~ Seek the Light ~*


I don't think that anyone is saying that the OP shouldn't do a turn around to meet his wife's needs. It's good that he realizes that. But she crossed a line. Now the priority has changed. He needs emotional support from her; he needs to know that she is remorseful and transparent so that he can try to get past this. Because if he can't, there is not going to be a marriage to improve. 

It's not realistic to think that a BS can properly focus on meeting his cheating spouse's needs while reeling from the devastation. Once he gets that support/remorse and is committed to R, THEN they can work on the marriage together.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I don't think that anyone is saying that the OP shouldn't do a turn around to meet his wife's needs. It's good that he realizes that. But she crossed a line. Now the priority has changed. He needs emotional support from her; he needs to know that she is remorseful and transparent so that he can try to get past this. Because if he can't, there is not going to be a marriage to improve.
> 
> It's not realistic to think that a BS can properly focus on meeting his cheating spouse's needs while reeling from the devastation. Once he gets that support/remorse and is committed to R, THEN they can work on the marriage together.


Here here! Very well said. :iagree:


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## WatchmansMoon (Mar 6, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> I think we have been infested by cheater trolls...


Ok, that just made me smile. I've never cheated on my DH, but I've had friends who have been cheated on, and I've helped friends work through reconciliation. I know how very painful and expensive on many levels that divorce is, and I'll do my utmost to encourage both partners in any way I can to find a way to reconcile. I tend to lean more towards encouraging than toward discouraging. 

I've also learned from experience that if the cheated on spouse blames the other entirely and makes no changes in their own actions in the reconciliation process, there's a much lower chance of recovery in the marriage. And that's sad. Kudos to our OP for recognizing what he can work on in this process. If they divorce in the end, then it's his wife's fault, but he'll know he did all he could to prevent it. He kept his vows. 

*~ Seek the Light ~*


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

BashfulBull said:


> I did the same as you. I walked out and never looked back. Just because you and I chose to turn our backs on our WSs doesn't really grant us clout to say what the best way to reconcile is.
> 
> I would ask you to consider the advice of the myriad of experienced posters here on TAM who advocate the tough love approach. There are folks here who have been through it all and they have empirical experience to show that taking the wayward to the edge of losing everything really is the best way to keep them honest.


I am just sharing my opinion, which I clearly stated. Much like you and everyone else. Where did you see "clout to say what the best way to reconcile is"? 

Doesn't touch love approach imply some sort of punishment? 

The difference in our opinions is that I don't think you can do anything to keep someone else honest. Granted people make mistakes, honesty is a character trait, which forms in childhood and maybe teenage years. If someone is of a character to cheat with the only regret of getting caught, and not the pain the one caused, then no amount of toughness in your love will fix that. I may be wrong, but that's what I believe in.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

rubymoon said:


> I am just sharing my opinion, which I clearly stated. Much like you and everyone else. Where did you see "clout to say what the best way to reconcile is"?
> 
> Doesn't touch love approach imply some sort of punishment?
> 
> The difference in our opinions is that I don't think you can do anything to keep someone else honest. Granted people make mistakes, honesty is a character trait, which forms in childhood and maybe teenage years. If someone is of a character to cheat with the only regret of getting caught, and not the pain the one caused, *then no amount of toughness in your love will fix that.* I may be wrong, but that's what I believe in.


I don't agree that if someone is of the character to be dishonest, that the fear of consequences has no effect. Whether it be a would-be bank robber who fears jail or a spouse that fears being exposed, monitored, and socially humiliated. 

It's logical to believe that those fear of consequences prevents many dishonest people from breaking the law or cheating. To me that's a positive, even if they abstain for the wrong reasons.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> *I think we have been infested by cheater trolls. * Either that or know it all with no experience.


Kinda obvious, huh?


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

where in the [email protected] is the do not like button?

One thing that is for sure, you never forget and forgiveness is on the BS terms that goes for R or D

and I am not talking about you BB, 3putt, bad company, chaparral


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I'm confused why are some of you acting like this OP is different? Some of you are acting like NO male BS ever, on TAM, started an OP accepting Blame for their wife's infidelity.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

If I was OP, wading through all these people arguing amongst themselves, I might have a hard time discerning what actual advice has been given.

OP ok you were a lousy husband. Guess what, you had a lousy wife and went and cheated EA or not. Take her off this pedestal before this relationship becomes unbalanced.

She might have cheated because you were lousy but fact is she did it..and continued to do it. 

Things are all hunky dory, she's scared because she got caught and OM showed he had no n*ts what so ever.

Question is, if you sweep this under the rug trying to be husband of the year, accepting the blame for her actions, then those said actions become justified. When that happens down the road when the dust has settled and normality/boredom/sameness has resumed, and someone catches her eye, she will feel entitled to pursue that relationship. Why not? Nothing is her fault. The onus is on you.

You need to nip this in the bud. Why did she do it? What is to stop her doing it again when circumstance presents itself? How can you work together to make your marriage stronger?

Both of you need to do some soul searching and a hell of a lot of hard work. 

Accept the blame for being lousy. As long as she accepts full responsibility for cheating.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> But the important part is that YOU know EVERYTHING about ME. *rolling my eyes*
> 
> I can use another word - what word would you like better? It won't change what I am saying though...


When did I say I know EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU?


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

Foghorn said:


> Folks, I think we might have lost the OP.
> 
> It is good that he understands that he's responsible for the reasons his wife was unhappy before the affair. That's a big step. However, she could have chosen other ways of making her unhappiness known. I would have made my husband understand that I was miserable and that we needed to fix our relationship, or I was out. If he refused counseling, after all that, I'd have filed.
> 
> ...


The affair is broken. I appreciate all of the input...from all angles.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> When did I say I know EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU?


Exactly where I quoted you! 

Or are you posting on 15 different forums and get confused who is where and why?


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

badmemory said:


> I don't agree that if someone is of the character to be dishonest, that the fear of consequences has no effect. Whether it be a would-be bank robber who fears jail or a spouse that fears being exposed, monitored, and socially humiliated.
> 
> It's logical to believe that those fear of consequences prevents many dishonest people from breaking the law or cheating. To me that's a positive, even if they abstain for the wrong reasons.


Let me re-phrase.

I DO NOT want to live with someone because he is with me out of fear. And I do not want someone living with me like it's a prison. 

Also, I do not want to punish my husband for anything, no matter what it is because I hope I am living with an adult, who is responsible for his own actions. 

Most importantly, I believe that it's the one who got cheated on is humiliated much more than the one who cheated. At least that's how it feels. 

Ok, I am leaving this topic now. We have different opinions and no one will change anyone else's mind here. Good luck!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I couldn't get past page two - what the bloody heck is all this drivel about meeting the cheaters needs??? People who have absolutely NO infidelity experience and who advocate a one-size fits all approach to every marital problem that exists REALLY need to keep their noses out of CWI. Holy crap.

Guido, I am VERY sorry your wife cheated on you - I was cheated on also. But you have GOT to stop rationalizing what she did and blaming it all on yourself. Sure, you sucked as a husband. But why oh why do you think that gave her permission to go out and cheat on you?? I am very glad that the two of you are working things out, but know this: There is NO way it will hold long term if she doesn't do a whole lot of work here. You have work to do too, but what you have to work on is the marriage. She has to also work on the marriage, but ONLY after she has worked damned hard on herself for becoming a cheater. And that is all 100% ALL on her.

Separate the two in your mind: 1) Her cheating, and 2) your marriage. Otherwise, I guarantee, you will not be together in 5 years. Sure, you might still be married, but you will not be in true R, because no true R can happen without the WS being truly remorseful.

Other sites, and now apparently some posters here, advocate that you can 'nice' your way out of a cheating spouse. If you think that's the way to go, by all means, but save this advice because eventually you'll need it. When you've been cheated on, nice guys always finish last.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

E. Guido Soda said:


> what is fair game in terms of monitoring her communication, her whereabouts, etc.? I have no delusions that I can police this relationship back to health, but I also can't live with the constant paranoia. She knows I am looking at her phone and reconciling it with the online statement - numbers called, texted, etc. No amount of oversight/controlling is going to change where we are right now, and if she wants to cheat, she is going to. I just am confused on how to handle the day-to-day stuff. Any thoughts are welcome.
> 
> Thx,
> 
> EGS


You will feel the need to monitor for a while. Just do it - there's a reason for it, different for different BS's. Once time has passed and you continue to not find anything, the need will fade away.

Expose what she did to your families, the OM wife if there is one. She must be accountable to more people than just you.

Get tested for STD's.

Monitor her ACTIONS. Her words mean nothing right now - she made sure of that when she cheated. What she does, and her attitude as she does it, will speak volumes. She should be volunteering information to you, and when you ask questions she should be answering everything with a humble, apologetic attitude. She has to want you to feel better. And NEVER should she EVER tell you to get over it.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> Calling the OW/OM spouse,


You do this because A) you are trying to break up the affair and MORE importantly B) because you have a moral obligation to do so. No matter the intent of saving or dissolving the marriage you always expose to the OMW/OWH. Wouldn't YOU want to know? So some woman bones your husband and you want to help her keep it secret from her spouse. WHY??????



rubymoon said:


> informing their employer (comes from another thread),


Depends on your intent. If you want to break up the affair then you inform the employer so they cease working together. For coworker affairs, 90% of it takes place AT WORK so why would you continue to allow them to have their alone time? Might as well pack condoms in with your spouse's lunch pail next to the ham sandwich and V8.



rubymoon said:


> running around the town screaming how horrible of the person your SO is... IMHO is a behavior that won't fix anything. It will only make you look pathetic.


Again depends on your intent. If you're done with the marriage then yes I agree. It would be pathetic. Better to let the cheater live in fantasyland while the divorce is processed so it's easier for the BS to bail on better terms. If you want to save the marriage then you HAVE to expose to everyone with the hope that the OM/OW (as MOST do) will eventually bus toss the cheater to save their own skin because they become more trouble then they are worth. It's certainly no guareentee it will happen but it's your only shot and sometimes you do have to give up and cut your loses.



rubymoon said:


> If you stay, then you will need even more strength to forgive and forget. If you stay and won't forgive and forget, then you are weak and pathetic. Sorry - just the way I personally see it.


You learn to forgive but you do not forget... The price of R is constant vigiliance and you'd be a fool to trust completely ever again. Weak and pathetic would be sticking your head in the sand and pretending it never happened.



rubymoon said:


> If someone is of a character to cheat with the only regret of getting caught, and not the pain the one caused, then no amount of toughness in your love will fix that. I may be wrong, but that's what I believe in.


The one thing you have said that I agree with. That's why I only advocate potential R for very few situations. I personally think most cheaters are only sorry they got caught. As is proven time and again on these forums.



rubymoon said:


> Most importantly, I believe that it's the one who got cheated on is humiliated much more than the one who cheated. At least that's how it feels.


Want to know what's more humiliating? Knowing your spouse cheat then rug sweeping the sh!t out of it as you are advocating. There's nothing humiliating in being unknowingly duped by a POS. The humilation comes into play in how you handle the knowledge once you become aware of it. Are you going to be a cuckold or are you gonna man/woman up? I didn't feel the least bit humiliated kicking my serial cheating wife to the curb. I only felt sorry for her that she was a wh0re.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Wow. 

Back to your original question.

Anyway, simply put, you will not get over it easily. You will feel the urge to monitor, some days will be worse than others, but it'll lessen. You will have triggers and you'll have to learn to deal with them.

As to some of the weird statements and fanciful interpretations, ignore those comments. She was cheating through email and texts, so you check them to put your mind at ease. You aren't putting her in a prison, if she didn't breach your trust, you'd wouldn't feel the need to monitor. Anyone that equates you stopping this:


> I know for a fact that she was seeing another man for a couple months; lunches, drinks after work, etc. I found the emails, texts and voicemails - nothing indicates actual sex, just some romance...but I could be wrong.


 as being put in prison, has a weird outlook on life. Traditional marriages do not entail dating, romance and love letters to someone outside of the marriage. Nowhere have you said she can't have friends or go out, you are stopping a specific type of scenario.



When you do get a counselor make sure it is NOT one that blames you for her cheating. The person can blame you for being a poor husband, but make sure it isn't one that tries to intertwine the two.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

E. Guido Soda said:


> The affair is broken. I appreciate all of the input...from all angles.


OP
what is not clear to me - do you care whether or not your wife had sex with this guy, or how much or how often? you seem to be treating that like just another detail of the affair.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> I couldn't get past page two - what the bloody heck is all this drivel about meeting the cheaters needs??? People who have absolutely NO infidelity experience and who advocate a one-size fits all approach to every marital problem that exists REALLY need to keep their noses out of CWI. Holy crap.
> 
> Guido, I am VERY sorry your wife cheated on you - I was cheated on also. But you have GOT to stop rationalizing what she did and blaming it all on yourself. Sure, you sucked as a husband. But why oh why do you think that gave her permission to go out and cheat on you?? I am very glad that the two of you are working things out, but know this: There is NO way it will hold long term if she doesn't do a whole lot of work here. You have work to do too, but what you have to work on is the marriage. She has to also work on the marriage, but ONLY after she has worked damned hard on herself for becoming a cheater. And that is all 100% ALL on her.
> 
> ...


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Whereas the curious part of my nature would like to know why you treated your W so badly for ten years, that is a digression that I won't indulge (much).

It seems to me that the consistent good advice starts primarily with Hope's post on this page. Your WW has to do some heavy lifting regarding her cheating if you two are to reconcile successfully. You have your own heavy lifting to do re the way you treated your marriage, but she chose to be unfaithful rather than divorce. That is a damning choice that is hers alone and must be owned and dealt with by her.

You both need counseling. She needs consequences, which usu. means transparency and exposure. While you can feel like a d-bag because you were so arrogant, selfish, and insensitive for so many years, you don't have to feel like one for monitoring your WW's communications and activities. That is part and parcel of transparency, which eventually rebuilds trust.

Best of luck to you. I hope you are able to save your marriage.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP
> what is not clear to me - do you care whether or not your wife had sex with this guy, or how much or how often? you seem to be treating that like just another detail of the affair.


I think the OP got a discount from Walmart on brooms when he rug swept this one in quick fashion.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

E. Guido Soda said:


> Anyway, a little background - *I pretty much drove her *to someone else, and am fortunate she decided to stay. I say this because for about 10 years I have pretty much ignored her, forgotten anniversaries, minimized birthdays, all but done nothing for Mothers Day, avoided her mom, and basically made her feel worthless...IOW, I was a very bad, immature husband. *Not excusing her behavior*



Uh, ya, you really did.





> My question to the group is this: what is fair game in terms of monitoring her communication, her whereabouts, etc.?


Normally I'd say everything is fair game. But you just told this forum, in so many words, that you are responsible for her straying. So if you are no longer ignoring her, then no reason to monitor, no?

Look, I'm not trying to beat you up here. I know it hurts, believe me, I know.

But IMO, as long as you blame yourself, then the person you need to police is yourself if you truly feel the way you do.

Normally I'd say police the hell out of her and any kind of monitoring is fair game. But with your attitude about pushing her to another man, its not so cut and dried.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> You are a gem, OP. Most betrayed husbands are stuck in blame, bitterness, and resentment.
> 
> With that kind of self-awareness, I have lots of hope for you, and your marriage.
> 
> Meet her deepest emotional needs. That is the key to winning back your wife, and healing her heart.


What does she need to do then since she is the one that cheated?

Or is this all on him?



jld said:


> You are welcome to disagree.  I certainly do not think being mean to her is going to improve the situation.


Nobody is talking about being mean to her. 

But you, since he is a man, would have him slobbering all over her and letting her wrap him around her finger.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

What changes occurred in your sex life before the affair? During it? Post Dday?

Did you wife go to the gym a lot? GNO? Toxic friends?

Were her parents happily married?

Yours?

How has this affected your children?

How did you discover the affair?

re: jld and meeting needs
I think she means that you have to a be a good husband, but that does not mean pursuing her if she is not attracted to you. You have to be strong, know who you are. Treat yourself with respect.

As to monitoring her whereabouts, VAR her car.

As to informing OMW, do it. Call her up on the phone and tell her. She will reduce the possibility of OM contacting your wife.

Did your wife write a no contact message to OM. It should be short and sweet:

X,

Our relationship was inappropriate. Do not contact me ever again. Please delete my telephone and email from your contacts.

Sincerely yours,

WW

re: your reaction
You seem fairly clear headed. Based on your demeanor, I guess you have a chance to save your marriage.

Do you have any bad habits, smoking, drinking, porn addiction, junk food?

Take the opportunity to quit them cold turkey. Your wife will be very impressed. Do not announce how you are working on yourself. The only thing that counts in action.

re: Golf
Do you think Woods will ever win another major?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Be sure to immediately get he two books linked to below. They are also available at amazon.. Bookstores need the business,haha

As far as something you need, to be more specific, you need all her passwords to her phones, texts and text apps, email accts, social accts like facebook etc. She cannot delete anything.

Get Gus Polinsky's help with deleted texts etc.

Get weightlifter's post on verifying everything.

Since your wife has cheated, unfortunately, everything she says has to be independentl verified. The dumbest cheater becomes an experienced liar overnight.

This can be saved, being lame is a disaster.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> As far as something you need, to be more specific, you need all her passwords to her phones, texts and text apps, email accts, social accts like facebook etc. She cannot delete anything.
> 
> Get Gus Polinsky's help with deleted texts etc.
> 
> ...


Someone linked the evidence post, he says he is past that point and doesn't plan on doing all of those things. He says he has read everything he needs and is now in monitor mode..


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

To all those reasonable, well thought out responses: thank you. For those who have it all figured out.....online (and hopefully also in the non-binary world).....thanks to you, too. I wish the best for you, as well!

-EGS


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Not to come back to the debate, but to take my words back.

I thought about it some more... My situation is different from most because I have no ties to my husband other than emotional. Same goes for my H. It's our consequent marriage (not first, and we are not young), no kids in common, both financially stable and capable of being independent... Other than the great love I have for him, nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, holds us together. Well, I hope he has the same love for me. 

Now, if I were a man who was risking to lose everything including full custody of his kids in a divorce because my wife had an affair with some scum bag, then I bet my opinion on "control" would be different. I bet I'd rather kill, mere less snoop around, than let this happen. 

Free choice and free love is a luxury. I do realize that not everyone has this freedom. 

Just trying to be understanding of other POV.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> So some woman bones your husband and you want to help her keep it secret from her spouse. WHY??????


Personally me. No one else, just little me. I would never- ever do that! Because I don't know her husband and he may be perfectly happy with her as long as he doesn't know. And he may not know and never will. It's between them! It's not to protect her. It's to not hurt a man I don't know. 



BetrayedDad said:


> You learn to forgive but you do not forget... The price of R is constant vigiliance and you'd be a fool to trust completely ever again.


Time heals all wounds. You do forget. If there is no trust, then just leave. I did forget first and then forgave. It took me a decade but it worked.



BetrayedDad said:


> You want to know what's more humiliating? Knowing your spouse cheat then rug sweeping the sh!t out of it as you are advocating.


I advocate forgiveness.


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## easysolution (Mar 5, 2014)

vellocet said:


> What does she need to do then since she is the one that cheated?
> 
> Or is this all on him?


She needs to find the strength to forgive him for driving her into the arms of the OM by not meeting her needs. /s


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

easysolution said:


> She needs to find the strength to forgive him for driving her into the arms of the OM by not meeting her needs. /s


The above must be meant as a joke.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

WatchmansMoon said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with owning up to whatever you did that may have contributed to a breakdown in the marriage. There's no excuse for infidelity, but, hey - both partners need to work in the reconciliation part. Maybe I'm a softee in my definition of "dumped on" - but I feel like OP's response has been stellar, and I'd never want to discourage someone from examining themselves and shortfalls and not just blaming the other entirely. Not trying to pick a fight either. Just sayin'
> 
> *~ Seek the Light ~*





If you are going to quote me, please try to do so accurately. However, I do agree with the second quote you have attributed to me.

Seek the TRUTH


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

workindad said:


> The above must be meant as a joke.


"/s" in some circles means sarcasm.


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> "/s" in some circles means sarcasm.


It is a good day when you learn something new. Thanks!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

vellocet said:


> What does she need to do then since she is the one that cheated?
> 
> Or is this all on him?
> 
> ...


Hi Vell. Traveling today so unable to respond until now.

My husband read me this response earlier when we talked on the phone. I've been thinking about it and I'm coming up with three possible scenarios:

1. Cheater takes all responsibility for restoring the relationship.

This one would pretty much put 100% responsibility on the cheater. She would acknowledge her wrongdoing as greater than his wrongdoing in neglecting. He may not even be required to admit any wrongdoing, if the only thing considered wrong that was done was her cheating. 

Not only would she need to go no contact and to be fully accountable in the future in whatever way her husband required, but she would probably also need to take on the responsibility for rebuilding the relationship with her husband. All of his feelings would be her responsibility. She would have to heal all of his pain and completely restore his confidence in order for the reconciliation to be considered successful. Husband would have zero responsibility for any of it.

I think the upside to this for the husband would be a feeling of complete justification for his feelings. He could consider himself the clear victim and her the clear aggressor.

I think the risk to this approach is that in assuming zero responsibility for restoring the relationship, he's pretty much handing all power to his wife. If it is 100% on her and 0% on him to restore the relationship, and she decides not to accept this responsibility, I think he will feel out of luck. 

If she takes this on for a period of time and at some point decides she doesn't want to do it anymore, he may feel very upset and angry and disappointed and just not know what to do with all of his hurt. 

I think there is a great deal of risk to handing all power for a situation, including our feelings, to another person. It could work out very well, or it could fail spectacularly. Both parties may be willing to do it this way and may like the results. If the cheater drops the ball at some point, they may be back to square one.

2. 50/50 split of responsibility

In this scenario, both husband and wife take 50% of the blame for the breakdown of the marriage. Wife takes her share of the blame for the cheating, and the husband takes his share of the blame for the neglect. Both agree to do half of the work for restoring the relationship. 

Another version of this would be that they each contributed half to the breakdown of the marriage, but she is 100% responsible for the cheating. My guess is that one of these is the most likely scenario in reconciliation.

The upside of this is that they are each carrying an equal load. It is not all on one or the other. The downside is that if either one drops their end, the whole reconciliation may stop.

I think the risk here is that the reconciliation may never be complete. I think an incomplete reconciliation, without the restoration of full trust, can probably go on for years. The marriage is not really restored, but neither really wants to leave it, either. Worst case scenario is a stalemate, neither one willing to give an inch more than the other, marriage unable to move forward.

3. Husband takes 100% responsibility for the breakdown of the relationship.

In this scenario the husband would look at what he may consider the root cause of the cheating: his neglect of her in the first place. He would ask himself if through his neglect, he pushed her beyond what she could bear. He may still hold her 100% accountable for her choice to cheat, but he would look at his own hand in getting her there.

The upside to this for the husband is that by taking 100% responsibility, he has 100% control over what he does. He is not waiting for her to change, nor dependent on her actions. He does not give her responsibility for his feelings, but decides to take ownership of them. 

I think the only way for this to work would be for the husband to really take a step back and study not only the situation, but his wife. He would need to look very hard at what he believes are her capabilities and what made her decide to choose to cheat. He would have to look closely at the emotional needs that the affair partner was meeting. He would have to decide to start meeting those needs himself.

The advantage to this for him is that if he could take over meeting those needs, he could end up winning back his wife without using any control devices or really anything other than his intellect and his own actions. He would probably feel extremely powerful, and realize a greater control of his wife then he even before thought possible. And it would all be voluntary on her part.

Best case scenario would be that she would feel guilty for the affair and not only stop it, but come to him to confess it and ask forgiveness. She may volunteer transparency and ask for accountability in the future.

The main hurdle to this approach would be the man's ability to see past his hurt and take a very logical, rational approach to the problem. He would also have to be very patient and persevering, and believe in his powers of persuasion. He would have to invest the time to figure her out and plan an effective strategy for winning her back. This would obviously take a great deal of motivation on his part. 

And it could fail. And time would've been lost in starting either one of the other approaches, or proceeding with divorce.

He would also likely not get any support for this approach from anyone else, and so would have to be a very independent man.

I read about this approach one time on a religious site. A man's wife had left him for another man and I believe they were even living together. The husband more or less followed this approach and within six months they were back together with her fully penitent. 

I think this approach is rare, but for a certain kind of man, it may be the preferable one.

One last note: someone said earlier that I'm recommending a lovey-dovey approach, which apparently has a name on another marriage site. 

What I'm actually recommending is that the husband learned to meet the wife's deepest needs. That may not require any lovey-dovey at all. 

For some women, meeting their deepest emotional needs may mean being very strict with them. Some women actually feel safer with sets of rules and clear expectations of transparency and accountability and procedures for both. It really depends on the woman. 

And there is no really no substitute for thoroughly knowing *your* woman.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

easysolution said:


> She needs to find the strength to forgive him for driving her into the arms of the OM by not meeting her needs. /s


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> Personally me. No one else, just little me. I would never- ever do that! Because I don't know her husband and he may be perfectly happy with her as long as he doesn't know. And he may not know and never will. It's between them! It's not to protect her. It's to not hurt a man I don't know.


How is it "between them" when he doesn't even know what's going on? Your position defacto protects the AP, is morally bankrupt, and makes you an accomplice to the affair whether you want to acknowledge that or not. Not everyone wants to live in ignorance and I geniunely pity those that do. I personally, just little old me, would harbor contempt for you if I was the BS and you were the OMW who did nothing.

Since you advocate this, it's natural to assume you practice what you preach, correct? Make sure you let your husband know if he ever cheats on you then he should never tell you because you'd rather live in an illusion than reality. Also, might want to get tested for STDs regularly since you won't ever want to know whether he's sleeping around on you or with whom.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Make sure you let your husband know if he ever cheats on you then he should never tell you because you'd rather live in an illusion than reality.


Why would he????? Telling about an affair (especially when it's over) is not "telling the truth". It's transferring your own guilt into your spouse's pain. 



BetrayedDad said:


> Also, might want to get tested for STDs regularly since you won't ever want to know whether he's sleeping around on you or with whom.


As my old and smart OBGYN said once: "Never trust anything with a **** - get checked regularly."


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## easysolution (Mar 5, 2014)

3putt said:


>


Whistle all you want but I've read weirder things in this thread alone. Damn lucky I didn't stumble on a thread like this when I first came here or I might have never returned.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> Why would he????? Telling about an affair (especially when it's over) is not "telling the truth". It's transferring your own guilt into your spouse's pain.


Because it's REALITY. You want to live in fantasyland because the truth hurts you too much. That's a really immature attitude and quite frankly sad. Pain is as much a part of life as joy is. I guess for you ignorance is bliss. That's not for me.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> What I'm actually recommending is that the husband learned to meet the wife's deepest needs. That may not require any lovey-dovey at all.
> 
> For some women, meeting their deepest emotional needs may mean being very strict with them. Some women actually feel safer with sets of rules and clear expectations of transparency and accountability and procedures for both. It really depends on the woman.
> 
> And there is no really no substitute for thoroughly knowing *your* woman.


I'll ask again, assuming he bows down and meets her every little need, then what lifting does she have to do?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

E. Guido Soda said:


> I say this because for about 10 years I have pretty much ignored her, forgotten anniversaries, minimized birthdays, all but done nothing for Mothers Day, avoided her mom, and basically made her feel worthless...IOW, I was a very bad, immature husband.





workindad said:


> If your wife was that brilliant, she wouldn't have cheated and would have found a way to re-engage you in the marriage on the front end or just divorced you.


This business of, "you should be able to treat your spouse as lousy as you want and they're responsible to either bring the marriage or divorce, but by gawd they should never hurt you by cheating on you, ain't the way the world works. It ain't Burger King; you don't always get it your way.

I got a little news for ya'll. When you treat um like crap and you think its just fine because they quit complaining about it, they've found some medicine for what ails them.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Because it's REALITY. You want to live in fantasyland because the truth hurts you too much. That's a really immature attitude and quite frankly sad. Pain is as much a part of life as joy is. I guess for you ignorance is bliss. That's not for me.


What if it is for the OM's wife? SHE doesn't want to know, yet you apply your own standards to her? And you know absolutely nothing about her! 

As to REALITY. Not all of it has to be brought to daylight. I do not want to know a lot of things! That my behind may be a bit too big, that my H gets attracted to pretty, younger women, that I am not the prettiest of them all... Sure, I do know how reality works, but I don't want to be told that! And since I know how reality works, I bet there are a lot of things that you don't want to hear, too. 

Reality is a subjective matter. Subjective to one's mind!


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> This business of, "you should be able to treat your spouse as lousy as you want and they're responsible to either bring the marriage or divorce, but by gawd they should never hurt you by cheating on you, ain't the way the world works. It ain't Burger King; you don't always get it your way.
> 
> I got a little news for ya'll. When you treat um like crap and you think its just fine because they quit complaining about it, they've found some medicine for what ails them.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The majority of people here had no idea there was a problem with the marriage. Just sayin. Most people are not mind readers.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> This business of, "you should be able to treat your spouse as lousy as you want and they're responsible to either bring the marriage or divorce, but by gawd they should never hurt you by cheating on you, ain't the way the world works. It ain't Burger King; you don't always get it your way.
> 
> I got a little news for ya'll. When you treat um like crap and you think its just fine because they quit complaining about it, they've found some medicine for what ails them.


:soapbox:

Then by "by gawd" then the should have ended the marriage instead of cheating. Cheating doesn't solve anything. You should know better. 

Explain to us why cheating makes it right.

Explain to us why cheating is better than ending the marriage. 

This is typical cheater rationalization/justification.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> :soapbox:
> 
> Then by "by gawd" then the should have ended the marriage instead of cheating. Cheating doesn't solve anything. You should know better.
> 
> ...


:lol::lol:

I wonder HOW you read all of that in the post you quoted?


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> The majority of people here had no idea there was a problem with the marriage. Just sayin. Most people are not mind readers.


Sometimes there are no problems at all. They just cheat. No reason, no justification, no explanation, no sense... Just cheat because they got an opportunity. 

In this case, I believe divorce is the best and the only option. Nothing will change people like that - set em free!! :butterfly:


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> I wonder HOW you read all of that in the post you quoted?


:rofl:

It's called reading newbie.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> As to REALITY. Not all of it has to be brought to daylight. I do not want to know a lot of things! That my behind may be a bit too big, that my H gets attracted to pretty, younger women, that I am not the prettiest of them all... Sure, I do know how reality works, but I don't want to be told that! And since I know how reality works, I bet there are a lot of things that you don't want to hear, too.
> 
> Reality is a subjective matter. Subjective to one's mind!


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


>


You know that by making fun and personal attacks at those who have a different opinion on this forum, you will not resolve your own issues in your R, don't you? 

Just making sure...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

jld said:


> Hi Vell. Traveling today so unable to respond until now.
> 
> My husband read me this response earlier when we talked on the phone. I've been thinking about it and I'm coming up with three possible scenarios:
> 
> ...


Once again you are not listening to what people are saying.

There are TWO SEPARATE ISSUES at play here. 

1) The state of the marriage
2) The fact she cheated

If you roll them into one issue, neither gets solved.

1) both partners must assume part of the responsibility for the state of the marriage, prior to the cheating as well as after, if they choose to R. And they both must commit to making the relationship better if they R. It's silly to assign a certain percentage of 'blame' here, because they both have to give 100% to fixing things or it will not work.

2) The cheater must assume 100% of the blame for cheating. *100%.* Cheating was a choice THEY made, all by themselves. They must admit they did it on their own, and they must figure out why and make it never happen again. THEY must do this. Nothing the BS does can do any of this for them. The fact a cheater DOES this means the BS can try R with them and have a reasonable chance of success. If the cheater does not do this, then R is doomed because the next time the BS does something the cheater doesn't like, off they'll go and cheat again.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

lordmayhem said:


> :soapbox:
> 
> Then by "by gawd" then the should have ended the marriage instead of cheating. Cheating doesn't solve anything. You should know better.


Me knowing better doesn't change the way the world works. And to some folks cheating is a better option than ending the marriage. When you treat your spouse like crap, putting them down, ignoring them, to lazy to acknowledge special occasions, always putting your whats first, you are in fact cheating them. Additionally you lied when you took your marriage vows. Being married doesn't mean either spouse gets to lay up on their azz, barking orders, insults, and complaints while the other does all the giving. 
Sorry, but I don't buy into the attitude that no matter how bad the behavior of one spouse, the other cheating is always, by far, worse. As bad as it is, cheating is often a way of filling a void. You tell me where that void comes from.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> :lol::lol:
> 
> I wonder HOW you read all of that in the post you quoted?


Pretty simple if you read the post.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Me knowing better doesn't change the way the world works. And to some folks cheating is a better option than ending the marriage. When you treat your spouse like crap, putting them down, ignoring them, to lazy to acknowledge special occasions, always putting your whats first, you are in fact cheating them. Additionally you lied when you took your marriage vows. Being married doesn't mean either spouse gets to lay up on their azz, barking orders, insults, and complaints while the other does all the giving.
> Sorry, but I don't buy into the attitude that no matter how bad the behavior of one spouse, the other cheating is always, by far, worse. As bad as it is, cheating is often a way of filling a void. You tell me where that void comes from.



If there's a void, cheating does not make the void smaller. I would say the opposite happens. I think it still better to leave the marriage then to make the void larger and (most likely) unrepairable.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

aug said:


> If there's a void, cheating does not make the void smaller. I would say the opposite happens. I think it still better to leave the marriage then to make the void larger and (most likely) unrepairable.


I can tell you I honestly and wholeheartedly did not know something was wrong in my marriage.. I loved my wife to death.. She never complained to me about anything of real issue. Financially we were not rich or poor.. We didn't do vacations but we had everything we needed and so did the kids.. Computers, Xboxes, full cable with all the bells and whistles.. A decent home.. A nice truck.. We would go out to friends home.. We would go to the movies.. Kids had any game they wanted.. 

Hindsight maybe we should have spent less locally and saved some for vacations.

Me and my Ex hardly fought and we laughed all the time.. Even up before I caught her we were good.. I seen no issues.. She wasn't distant.. We had sex on a regular basis.. 

I would have done anything on my part to fix my marriage.. Trust me I would have done ANYTHING.. 

There were times I would wish she would call me and just tell me the grass wasn't greener. I made a big mistake can we fix this.. I miss you and love you.. 

I loved her smile and her laugh.. 

My ex left a GAPING VOID.. She ended our relationship in the most horrendous way ever.. 

When I look back, I come to realize that she was faking it all and just was going to drop me over night like a hot potato. This other man had already moved here from New Orleans.. All she needed was a few more months of pretending.. I caught her before she could fake it some more.. 

Her betrayal and dishonesty were crushing beyond any understanding or comprehension. 

I just didn't see this coming at ALL..

So yes I wish she would have just left and not cheated.. Because it was more than I can bear.. Even as I type this I well up with tears because it still hurts that much.. The only thing I am happy about is that I have therapy tonight and maybe I can one day sort all this stuff out..

But right now I still can't.. Like they say fake it till it happens ? Well here is to me faking it..


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> Sometimes there are no problems at all. They just cheat. No reason, no justification, no explanation, no sense... Just cheat because they got an opportunity.


So what they do is start creating "rationalizations" to justify their POS behavior and all of the sudden the guilt goes away.

Their minds start to repeat things like:



ThePheonix said:


> When you treat your spouse like crap, putting them down, ignoring them, to lazy to acknowledge special occasions, always putting your whats first, you are in fact cheating them. Additionally you lied when you took your marriage vows. Being married doesn't mean either spouse gets to lay up on their azz, barking orders, insults, and complaints while the other does all the giving.


But what they FAIL to do is make a serious attempt to resolve their feelings of discontent because if they did their "rationalizations" would become a moot point.

Which leads too:



Chaparral said:


> The majority of people here had no idea there was a problem with the marriage. Just sayin. Most people are not mind readers.


"My spouse treated me badly so I cheated" is cheater's script 101. The translation in English is "I have the opportunity to cheat so I will manipulate the state of the marriage to justify my guilt." The cheater will passively inject hostility into the marriage, the betrayed will aggressively reciprocate, the cheater then sites the overt aggressive behavior of the BS as "rationalizations" for the cheating. The BS is set up from day one and they never saw it coming. If the cheater's "rationalizations" were legit they would of left. They stay because the bulk of their grievances are fictitious or grossly over amplified and deep down they know it. They don't want to leave, they want to justify being "driven to it". The truth is they cheat because THEY WANT TO.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

'If there's a void, cheating does not make the void smaller. I would say the opposite happens. I think it still better to leave the marriage then to make the void larger and (most likely) unrepairable.'

In addition to the fact that betrayal (of which infidelity is a form/aspect) is amongst the most vile things a human being can inflict on another.

There is a reason why traitors are the most hated and reviled characters in history, religion, and literature.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> If the cheater's "rationalizations" were legit they would of left.


Not always true. How many folks claim the reason they want to reconcile as opposed to divorce (the schism could be cheating or any other reason) is because of the kids. They are willing to live in hell for something outside the marriage. 
With that in mind consider this. A guy is married to a woman who has no interest in sex and is a total harpy. He has children. 
Should he:

1. Stay in the marriage for the kids and suffer the abuse.

2. Divorce the iceburg.

3. Find something on the side since this wife is not interest anyway; thinking to himself, "I ain't taking away from her to give it to someone else."


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Me knowing better doesn't change the way the world works. And to some folks cheating is a better option than ending the marriage. When you treat your spouse like crap, putting them down, ignoring them, to lazy to acknowledge special occasions, always putting your whats first, you are in fact cheating them. Additionally you lied when you took your marriage vows. Being married doesn't mean either spouse gets to lay up on their azz, barking orders, insults, and complaints while the other does all the giving.
> Sorry, but I don't buy into the attitude that no matter how bad the behavior of one spouse, the other cheating is always, by far, worse.


Have you ever been cheated on?

Have you ever heard the expression "For better or for worse"??



ThePheonix said:


> As bad as it is, cheating is often a way of filling a void. You tell me where that void comes from.


The void is within the CHEATER. NOT the CHEATEE.

You seem to be implying that everyone had better damned well be good to their spouse, otherwise they should expect them to go out and screw someone else. That's bullpucky. If you married someone who thinks they can treat you like sh!t and not have you divorce them, wtf are you doing with them? Why stay and cheat??

If it's a case of "well you called me names so I went out and got sex with someone else" then there's really not much hope, is there?

If two people WANT to be together, they have GOT to do things the way that has been outlined above, with the two issues separate. Otherwise, all they'll do is stay married and miserable. But hey, if that's all someone wants, fine. Go ahead and cheat, rugsweep, and blame the BS.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Not always true. How many folks claim the reason they want to reconcile as opposed to divorce (the schism could be cheating or any other reason) is because of the kids.


So they cheat for the kids? 

How noble of them...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Not always true. How many folks claim the reason they want to reconcile as opposed to divorce (the schism could be cheating or any other reason) is because of the kids. They are willing to live in hell for something outside the marriage.
> With that in mind consider this. A guy is married to a woman who has no interest in sex and is a total harpy. He has children.
> Should he:
> 
> ...


Anyone who stays married "for the kids' is DOING IT WRONG. There is no stupider reason on earth to stay married. So since they're already doing it wrong, why WOULDN'T they go find it on the side?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You seem to be implying that everyone had better damned well be good to their spouse, otherwise they should expect them to go out and screw someone else. That's bullpucky. If you married someone who thinks they can treat you like sh!t and not have you divorce them, wtf are you doing with them? Why stay and cheat??
> 
> If it's a case of "well you called me names so I went out and got sex with someone else" then there's really not much hope, is there?
> 
> If two people WANT to be together, they have GOT to do things the way that has been outlined above, with the two issues separate. Otherwise, all they'll do is stay married and miserable. But hey, if that's all someone wants, fine. Go ahead and cheat, rugsweep, and blame the BS.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Hope knows her stuff!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Have you ever been cheated on?


Not that I'm aware of.




Hope1964 said:


> If you married someone who thinks they can treat you like sh!t and not have you divorce them, wtf are you doing with them? Why stay and cheat??


Because some folks think, for one reason or another its a better option than divorce. (And they think they can get away with it. Many do.) In the final analysis, it kinda like my cousin said, "when that SOB quit pestering me for sex, I knew something was up."


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Not that I'm aware of.


If you have never been cheated on why in GODS NAME are you in here giving advice to people who have????????????????????



ThePheonix said:


> Because some folks think, for one reason or another its a better option than divorce. (And they think they can get away with it. Many do.) In the final analysis, it kinda like my cousin said, "when that SOB quit pestering me for sex, I knew something was up."


You do realize the inherent flaw in this statement, don't you?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> If you have never been cheated on why in GODS NAME are you in here giving advice to people who have????????????????????


I've never been a defendant in tax court. But I've been an advocate for those who have. Closer to home, attorneys who practice family law or a therapist helping someone survive divorce may have never been divorced themselves.



Hope1964 said:


> You do realize the inherent flaw in this statement, don't you?


Actually I believe some people think cheating is a better option than divorce. (albeit the "cousin" part is a bit misplaced)


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> If you have never been cheated on why in GODS NAME are you in here giving advice to people who have????????????????????


If I recall correctly, he used to be an OM for quite a few women so he does offer valuable insight from that perspective.



Hope1964 said:


> You do realize the inherent flaw in this statement, don't you?


I think that's his point. It is flawed but that doesn't change people from thinking that way when they decide to cheat.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

ThePhoenix and I imply that there may be some variations to the situation or how it can be addressed. It's not one-for-all solution. It is just a variation of many. It does NOT mean that our opinions are applicable to your particular situation. I said that some cheat just because. But there are those who get pushed over the edge, those who are willing to put it behind and forgive, and those who just don't give a damn... Each situation is different and unique.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I think jld and the moons have some good points, but let's step away from abstraction and theory. OP how was your sex life at the beginning of your relationship? Pre-affair? During the affair? And now?

Do you feel that you have reconnected with your wife?

How good a liar was she?

How did you discover the affair?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

E. Guido Soda said:


> So while I am not 100% that my wife "consummated" an extrmarital affair, I know for a fact that she was seeing another man for a couple months; lunches, drinks after work, etc. I found the emails, texts and voicemails - nothing indicates actual sex, just some romance...but I could be wrong.
> 
> Anyway, a little background - I pretty much drove her to someone else, and am fortunate she decided to stay. I say this because for about 10 years I have pretty much ignored her, forgotten anniversaries, minimized birthdays, all but done nothing for Mothers Day, avoided her mom, and basically made her feel worthless...IOW, I was a very bad, immature husband. Not excusing her behavior, but I hae to be fair about this - I was, in a word, awful.
> 
> ...


So, in effect, EGS, you had an affair with your own ego and didn't need your wife in your life? You cheated on her with your own id?:scratchhead:


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> I've never been a defendant in tax court. But I've been an advocate for those who have. Closer to home, attorneys who practice family law or a therapist helping someone survive divorce may have never been divorced themselves.


Comparing going to court with being cheated on is laughable. The fact you've done so speaks volumes.



BetrayedDad said:


> If I recall correctly, he used to be an OM for quite a few women so he does offer valuable insight from that perspective.


:rofl: This actually explains a lot.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Actually I believe some people think cheating is a better option than divorce. (albeit the "cousin" part is a bit misplaced)


So when these people cheat, why would the BS think it was THEIR fault?? Of course some people think this. The fact that they do just shows how utterly selfish they are, and why the BS shouldn't take on iota of the blame for it.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Comparing going to court with being cheated on is laughable. The fact you've done so speaks volumes.


I don't know who peed in your cheerios, but throw them out.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Hope, I think you believe I'm saying some affairs are justified and they are generally betrayed's fault. Not that simple. There are a multitude of reasons people have affairs. Sometimes the individual cannot be true and faithful to anyone. There's a void in them that no person can fill. There are other cases where, but for the shabby treatment they receive, they wouldn't have been looking elsewhere. Believe it when I say I've seen it all.
I don't doubt that you and some others will summarily dismiss this as just another POS trying to justify cheating. There are others however who will give credence to what I'm saying and maybe take a personal inventory of their role in and their contribution to the the marriage. If they do so and tweak things to make their spouse a little happier that's good. If not, nobody's increased their losses.


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## E. Guido Soda (Jul 29, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> I can tell you I honestly and wholeheartedly did not know something was wrong in my marriage.. I loved my wife to death.. She never complained to me about anything of real issue. Financially we were not rich or poor.. We didn't do vacations but we had everything we needed and so did the kids.. Computers, Xboxes, full cable with all the bells and whistles.. A decent home.. A nice truck.. We would go out to friends home.. We would go to the movies.. Kids had any game they wanted..
> 
> Hindsight maybe we should have spent less locally and saved some for vacations.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that, man, I hope it gets better for you...it will, I'm sure. Time, time time.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Hope, I think you believe I'm saying some affairs are justified and they are generally betrayed's fault. Not that simple. There are a multitude of reasons people have affairs. Sometimes the individual cannot be true and faithful to anyone. There's a void in them that no person can fill. There are other cases where, but for the shabby treatment they receive, they wouldn't have been looking elsewhere. Believe it when I say I've seen it all.
> I don't doubt that you and some others will summarily dismiss this as just another POS trying to justify cheating. There are others however who will give credence to what I'm saying and maybe take a personal inventory of their role in and their contribution to the the marriage. If they do so and tweak tdhings to make their spouse a little happier that's good. If not, nobody's increased their losses.



By your logic, one who doesn't make enough money is mostly or partly responsible for their spouse robbing banks. As a matter of fact, anything a person does that is immoral can be laid at someone elses door step by your logic.

Then again your logic put you in the position of being a serial cheater and homewrecker. Have you made restitution to those families you defiled? Have you asked for the forgivness of the spouses and children whose lives you trashed?

Maybe the problem here is logic. What you have done would have gotten you killed not so long ago. Though the law protects people like you now, doesn't it bother you? If somene doesn't feel guilt for the tmmoral things they have done, doesn't that make them a sociopath or a psychopath?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think ThePhoenix is trying to justify himself. I think he was just trying to explain another side of it. I think rubymoon was trying to go a little deeper, too.

It is an emotional topic and it is probably hard to set feelings aside and just be completely rational and logical about it. But other people are reading besides just the ones posting, and some of those readers may be learning from the exchanges here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I'll ask again, assuming he bows down and meets her every little need, then what lifting does she have to do?


Why is it bowing down? Is that how you see the OP? 

I see the OP as exceptionally mature and rational in the face of great emotional pain. I think he is to be commended.

To me, at some point the wife needs to acknowledge her disrespect of her husband, and her disobedience to her marital vows. If I were a husband, I would want that, anyway, for full trust to be restored, for integrity to be once again intact. 

I bet there are some husbands, though, that would be okay if she just turned away from it, never to return to it. Not everyone seems to require an apology, if the behavior changes.

Let me give an example. Do you remember my love child thread? At the time of that thread, I got a pm from someone who told me that one of his ancestors had a wife who got pregnant by another man while her husband was at war. When the husband returned home, and found out, he did not berate her or turn her out. As I understood it, he took a look at the situation and determined that she had been pushed beyond her limits to cope with a husband gone for a long period of time, and who might never return. He simply accepted the child and raised him as his own.

Now that man happened to be a wealthy and socially prominent individual. I think his confidence in himself is what allowed him to do this.

Ultimately, you really need to know *your* wife, how she thinks, what she needs, and what you need from her. People may go about dealing with her in different ways, but I think these bits of knowledge are critical.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Print this set of wayward spouse instructions and go over them WITH your wife. Watch her reactions closely. See if she is willing to walk the walk.

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What do you think, OP? Does post #142 accurately describe you? Do you need everything listed there?

How _are_ you doing with the situation?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> Why is it bowing down? Is that how you see the OP?


No, that's how I see you advising him. And wouldn't it have to be bowing down given your stance on this? You have already told this site that you would not advise a woman to reconcile with a man, but that in reverse its different and there is hope.




> To me, at some point the wife needs to acknowledge her disrespect of her husband, and her disobedience to her marital vows.


At some point? Acknowledge? That's it?

You advise men to meet the unmet needs of their cheating wives, but you don't have much in the way of recommendations of what a cheating wife should do in order to earn trust back. 

Acknowledgement doesn't cut it. Its only a start. A WW has to SHOW her husband with action that she will never do it again, and refrain from any behaviors/activity that typically leads to cheating.

You put the burden on the husbands.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> You advise men to meet the unmet needs of their cheating wives, but you don't have much in the way of recommendations of what a cheating wife should do in order to earn trust back.


I think it's more clear than the obvious - that's why she didn't state that. 

Cheating wife must cut all connections to the OM.
Must make all her contacts, communication, etc transparent.
Must realize that if her spouse wants to check on her in any situation, then it's Ok, and she should cooperate.
Must realize how badly she hurt her H and do everything and anything she can to assure him that he is the one, the best, the most, the biggest, the... basically, IT. It should be sincere to the point that he should see it not only in her eyes, but in the eyes of her family and friends. 

It's a TWO way street most of the time. BOTH have to work on making it work again. 

PS. This is applicable only to the cases similar to the OP. This is NOT a solution for all and any infidelities in the world.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Then again your logic put you in the position of being a serial cheater and homewrecker. Have you made restitution to those families you defiled? Have you asked for the forgivness of the spouses and children whose lives you trashed?


My post provided what I have observed. Take it however you like Dawg. 
On your diatribe about my liability and guilt, honestly I don't have a lot. I don't feel that I defied or trashed any family. (I think you really mean "guy") My contact, go-between, agent, or whatever you choose to call them set it up with willing participates was actively seeking a service. It wasn't always about sex. Most often it was to make them feel special. Sometimes it was to go to plays, dinner and dancing. Sometimes their husbands knew and approved of the arrangement. 
What's really sad about it, and the basis of my "advice" is not my lack of or amount of guilt; but that somebody's wife had to seek me out to make them feel special. Think about it my man.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> I think it's more clear than the obvious - that's why she didn't state that.


No, that's not why if you know her stance and difference between when a man cheats as opposed to a woman.




> Cheating wife must cut all connections to the OM.
> Must make all her contacts, communication, etc transparent.
> Must realize that if her spouse wants to check on her in any situation, then it's Ok, and she should cooperate.
> Must realize how badly she hurt her H and do everything and anything she can to assure him that he is the one, the best, the most, the biggest, the... basically, IT. It should be sincere to the point that he should see it not only in her eyes, but in the eyes of her family and friends.
> ...


And I absolutely agree. The things you described are what a WS needs to do for reconciliation, no matter if the WS is the husband or wife.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Hope, I think you believe I'm saying some affairs are justified and they are generally betrayed's fault. Not that simple. There are a multitude of reasons people have affairs. Sometimes the individual cannot be true and faithful to anyone. There's a void in them that no person can fill.


I completely agree. But that's not how you packaged your statements earlier. You tied it with being treated badly, therefore.....the BS's own fault.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> My post provided what I have observed. Take it however you like Dawg.
> On your diatribe about my liability and guilt, honestly *I don't have a lot. I don't feel that I defied or trashed any family*.


And there you have it folks! No responsibility to do the decent and right thing. BS's are supposed to listen to the arguments when this is the prevailing mentality?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

To E. Guido Soda. I was in your shoes 3½ years ago, when I discovered my wifes cheating. So I understand the urge to look for answers within, to be able to do something, to be able to handle the confusion. And there are some things in your reasoning that doesn't add up.

I therefore offer you these questions to ponder. It's about your assumptions and reasoning.

1. Your assumption is that your bad behaviour caused your wife to cheat. What did your wife do to make you behave the way you did?

2. The answer to your question regarding need for monitoring is easy. If your assumptions are correct; you won't need to monitor her actions if you just start to treat her better. You can trust her with a 100% again because you won't cause her to cheat, right?

3. Or; turn it around, 180 degrees. You treated her bad, she treated you worse to make things better. Would things be even better if you match her efforts and treat her even worse, or...?

Do you see the missing link in these questions? Things get very blured when you take responsibility for other peoples choices and bad behaviour.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

vellocet said:


> No, that's how I see you advising him. And wouldn't it have to be bowing down given your stance on this? You have already told this site that you would not advise a woman to reconcile with a man, but that in reverse its different and there is hope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup. Look at her signature, it reeks of *entitlement*. Its never about the man's needs or each others needs. Its about enabling the entitled princess. And that's what gets so many BH's here in trouble. They end up as just the beta provider that the WW gets bored with.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> I completely agree. But that's not how you packaged your statements earlier. You tied it with being treated badly, therefore.....the BS's own fault.


Dear Vellocet. 

It DOES-DOES-DOES happen that the one who got cheated on drove the situation to that point. In that case, YES, it will be his/her fault!!!

Blindly pushing the blame on the other party will not get you too far. 

I got cheated on years ago. I do realize that it was partly MY fault. It is not an excuse for my SO to cheat on me, but it's a sober and adult way for me to see my own part in the situation, and admit to my own mistakes.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Unless the BS took the WS's genitals and shoved them in the AP's face, it is NOT THEIR FAULT.

*Can you people really not see the difference between the cheating and the state of the marriage? Really??
*
If not, where does the blame start? Are you saying that, unless you are a PERFECT SPOUSE, you can expect your partner to fool around? 

You left the toilet seat up? - OMG. She went to the bar and picked up a ONS, what's the problem with that? 

You failed to read her mind and meet all of her needs all of the time? Holy crap you're an ass - she had every right to screw that guy from the office for 6 months. 

You typical woman, you paid more attention to the kids than him - of COURSE he was going to bang his secretary.

Your marriage has sucked for 5 years and neither of you is putting any effort into it any more? Well damn, did you really expect him NOT to go online and sign up for a bunch of sex chat sites and arrange to meet hookers in hotel rooms? Any red blooded male would have done that. Even though you didn't do anything of the sort.

If your marriage sucks DEAL WITH IT. Cheating isn't dealing with it. Cheating is the cowards way of trying to make themselves feel better. There are ALWAYS choices, and if you choose to cheat, then YOU chose to cheat.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> Dear Vellocet.
> 
> It DOES-DOES-DOES happen that the one who got cheated on drove the situation to that point. In that case, YES, it will be his/her fault!!!


No, its not. Its party his/her fault for the state of the marriage. 

But when one becomes a cheater, that's on them and there is no excuse.



> I got cheated on years ago. I do realize that it was partly MY fault. *It is not an excuse for my SO to cheat on me*


Ya, it is when you put it that way. You are partly responsible for the health of your relationship. Its the other person's character that led them to cheat.

Give you an example. Myself. I was emotionally and sexually neglected. I didn't cheat. Whats the difference between me and my x cheating wife?.....character.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Unless the BS took the WS's genitals and shoved them in the AP's face, it is NOT THEIR FAULT.
> 
> *Can you people really not see the difference between the cheating and the state of the marriage? Really??*


*

Exactly. Using their very same logic one could then say this.

You cheated on your spouse, therefore you pushed them to beat you to a bloody pulp.

See how the blame game works?

Again, 2 people responsible for the marriage. Each person is responsible for whatever choices they make in the marriage.

If there is neglect, its not the other spouse's fault. If there is cheating, its not the other spouses fault.*


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Well... it wouldn't hurt you guys to try seeing other possible variations of the situation. 

I don't know anything about your situations in particular. I believe you didn't deserve that and would never do that yourself. Hence, most of what we are saying in this particular post, where OP admits to his mistakes, does not apply to your cases in any shape or form. 

Ho-w-ever... anger is a good progress in the healing process, and it sure feels better than pain - just make sure that you don't get stuck in that state of mind. If 3-4 months from now, you are still raging like this, then you yourself need help. Secondly, life never puts you in the same situation twice. Learning from other people's experience is not that easy, but that's what smart people do. So, instead of bashing ThePhoenix, I'd listen to what he has to say simply because he has witnessed the other side of the situation. He is not saying it's great and noble, but he has something to say that you know NOTHING about. And that may (just MAY) save you from pain in the future, because you learn something and don't make other people's mistakes. 

Best of luck, a lot of love to you!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> Well... it wouldn't hurt you guys to try seeing other possible variations of the situation.


Please enlighten me and give me a situation when the BS deserves to be cheated on.



rubymoon said:


> I don't know anything about your situations in particular. I believe you didn't deserve that and would never do that yourself. Hence, most of what we are saying in this particular post, where OP admits to his mistakes, does not apply to your cases in any shape or form.
> 
> Ho-w-ever... anger is a good progress in the healing process, and it sure feels better than pain - just make sure that you don't get stuck in that state of mind. If 3-4 months from now, you are still raging like this, then you yourself need help. Secondly, life never puts you in the same situation twice. Learning from other people's experience is not that easy, but that's what smart people do. So, instead of bashing ThePhoenix, I'd listen to what he has to say simply because he has witnessed the other side of the situation. He is not saying it's great and noble, but he has something to say that you know NOTHING about. And that may (just MAY) save you from pain in the future, because you learn something and don't make other people's mistakes.
> 
> Best of luck, a lot of love to you!


Can you please answer this?



Hope1964 said:


> *Can you people really not see the difference between the cheating and the state of the marriage? Really??
> *
> If not, where does the blame start? Are you saying that, unless you are a PERFECT SPOUSE, you can expect your partner to fool around?



And please have a look at my story that's linked in my sig before trying to give me any advice on R.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> Well... it wouldn't hurt you guys to try seeing other possible variations of the situation.


Oh I can see variations and that there are problems in almost all marriages.

What I'm not going to see or accept is that I am at fault for being cheated on. That was HER choice, HER responsibility.
Because if I am at fault for her cheating, since I suffered neglect, no affection, etc, I could have cheated, but didn't. Is she at fault for me being faithful?


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Can you please answer this?
> 
> "Can you people really not see the difference between the cheating and the state of the marriage? Really??
> 
> If not, where does the blame start? Are you saying that, unless you are a PERFECT SPOUSE, you can expect your partner to fool around?"


For some people, there is no marriage by the time they cheat. Their spouse is a stranger. And there is nothing that holds them together other than mortgage and other emotionless obligations. So, they don't even feel like they are cheating. 

No, we are not saying that. You are taking our points to extremes that make those points pointless.


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> What I'm not going to see or accept is that I am at fault for being cheated on. That was HER choice, HER responsibility.


For the love of God!!! We were talking about OP, not YOU!!!!!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> For the love of God!!! We were talking about OP, not YOU!!!!!


For the love of god, you made a blanket statement about us seeing the other side of it. This is not about me, but I reserve the right to use my situation as an example.

For when you say that OP should see that somehow he is at fault, then you are saying it to all of us.

Got it?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

rubymoon said:


> For some people, there is no marriage by the time they cheat. Their spouse is a stranger. And there is nothing that holds them together other than mortgage and other emotionless obligations. So, they don't even feel like they are cheating.
> 
> No, we are not saying that. You are taking our points to extremes that make those points pointless.


Saying there is no marriage is a cop out. The two of them ARE married, therefore there IS a marriage, no matter how miserable it is. And saying the WS doesn't 'feel' like they're cheating doesn't change the fact that they ARE cheating.

So there is a marriage, and it sucks. Why is it ok for someone to cheat then? Why are you not willing to hold someone accountable if they choose to cheat instead of ending it, working on it, or agreeing to an open marriage with their spouse?


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> For the love of god, you made a blanket statement about us seeing the other side of it. This is not about me, but I reserve the right to use my situation as an example.
> 
> *For when you say that OP should see that somehow he is at fault, then you are saying it to all of us.*
> 
> Got it?


:banghead::banghead::banghead:



rubymoon said:


> Well... it wouldn't hurt you guys to try seeing other possible variations of the situation.
> 
> *I don't know anything about your situations in particular. I believe you didn't deserve that and would never do that yourself. Hence, most of what we are saying in this particular post, where OP admits to his mistakes, does not apply to your cases in any shape or form. *


Once again, best of luck and lots of love. 

Peace, folks.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

Because rubymoon is too enlightened to judge.

Unfortunately, if we refuse to establish any expectations we will live with what we get. Let Ruby have this one, she wins in a forum debate and loses IRL.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

rubymoon said:


> *For some people, there is no marriage by the time they cheat.* Their spouse is a stranger. And there is nothing that holds them together other than mortgage and other emotionless obligations. So, they don't even feel like they are cheating.
> 
> No, we are not saying that. You are taking our points to extremes that make those points pointless.


Yeah, we were missing this, the mother of all bull****s :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

So the cheater just forgot to tell his/her spouse that he/she considered the marriage finished...


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## bigbearsfan (Feb 11, 2014)

BashfulBull said:


> That seems to be the new mantra with many posters here on TAM now. My how this place has changed in just the last few months!


Amen! I am completely amazed how all of the sudden, the low moral coward is throwing in and sticking together.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/210690-friend-hitting-wife.html This thread just amazes me. Poor OP sticks up for his marriage and some are making him out to be the bad guy or overreacting.
I am just stunned that common decency and having morals is the thing of the past.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

bigbearsfan said:


> Amen! I am completely amazed how all of the sudden, the low moral coward is throwing in and sticking together.
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/210690-friend-hitting-wife.html This thread just amazes me. Poor OP sticks up for his marriage and some are making him out to be the bad guy or overreacting.
> I am just stunned that common decency and having morals is the thing of the past.


That thread has nothing to do with anyone cheating - why use it as an example here??


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> For some people, there is no marriage by the time they cheat.





italianjob said:


> Yeah, we were missing this, the mother of all bull****s :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


Sorry but the girl is right. When a woman cheats on a man, her interest level in that man is all but gone. Re-read some of the post by the girls. If some of the girls wouldn't get slammed, they'd tell you that.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I completely agree. But that's not how you packaged your statements earlier. You tied it with being treated badly, therefore.....the BS's own fault.


I'll clarify it now. If a spouse treats their spouse badly, belittling them, ignoring them, and destroying their self esteem, if their spouse divorces them, they are not guiltless in the reason for divorce. If their spouse chooses another option, errr, you know where I'm going with this. 




vellocet said:


> And there you have it folks! No responsibility to do the decent and right thing. *BS's are supposed to listen to the arguments when this is the prevailing *mentality?


Ok Dawg, you tell me. If you were going to configure your house to mitigate break ins, are you going to listen to a person with years of experience breaking into houses or the neighbor belly aching about his house being ransacked by burglars. 

Forget the girls looking elsewhere. I'm giving you my views based on hundreds of hours talking to them about why they chose that route. Ignore it at your own peril. (for those interested in becoming a anti-dump member, pay attention to Rubymoon. That gal is giving excellent guidance.)


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

Why do you (those who think it's about them) apply it to yourself??? 

Do you also think "it's Me!!" when you watch Spiderman or Ironman??

We are talking bout those who can relate, not you. 

I can. I was cheated on because I didn't want to hear my partner. I was too wrapped up in ME, my feelings, thoughts, ideas, emotions... I completely disregarded him in that situation. He had nothing to do with that single-processor mind. He wasn't a part of it. It was all about Me! His actions, as horrible as they were, opened my eyes on myself, my mistakes and the world around me, which may be unfair but real!

Yes, I got hurt. A lot! Badly. No words to describe. But that experience changed me. I turned into a different person. I don't know what the future holds for me, but I won't make the same mistakes regardless of whose fault it was. I know better today.

I learn about experiences, like ThePhoenix, with great attention. Not because he is a Spider-Man, but because that information may teach me something BEFORE I allow myself into slipping into those mistakes. And trust me, those are rare... Usually, people don't share that type of information, because everyone wants to come out as an Ironman!!


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Here is the train of thought being push in this thread applied to a different situation:

"Husband was not getting [insert need] met by his wife. Husband proceeds to beat his wife. The police come and decide its the wife's fault for not listening and she has to take responsibility. Wife charged with domestic violence and convicted in court. Wife ordered to forgive husband and has to meet 100% of his needs from now on or she will be beaten and charged again."

How insane are some people?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Ripper said:


> Here is the train of thought being push in this thread applied to a different situation:
> 
> "Husband was not getting [insert need] met by his wife. Husband proceeds to beat his wife. The police come and decide its the wife's fault for not listening and she has to take responsibility. Wife charged with domestic violence and convicted in court. Wife ordered to forgive husband and has to meet 100% of his needs from now on or she will be beaten and charged again."
> 
> How insane are some people?


Give it up. Thread after thread is being hyjacked by the holier than though. Lol,.even a gigolo is giving advice to the victims of infidelity. Because he's an expert.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Ripper said:


> Here is the train of thought being push in this thread applied to a different situation:
> 
> "Husband was not getting [insert need] met by his wife. Husband proceeds to beat his wife. The police come and decide its the wife's fault for not listening and she has to take responsibility. Wife charged with domestic violence and convicted in court. Wife ordered to forgive husband and has to meet 100% of his needs from now on or she will be beaten and charged again."
> 
> How insane are some people?


Let me give you one a little more consistent with reality.

Husband feels the spark is gone after several years of marriage. He's a big dog at the office and acquired a big house, expensive cars and the prestigious lifestyle. Unlike his marriage, his career is exciting along with the trenchant, well dressed career women around and about. (of course we know he only works so hard for his family, right?) When not working, he'd rather spend time watching football than with his wife, especially since she put on a few pounds over the years. She deserves being ignored because she doesn't do what it takes to stay in shape.
But we know is all her fault she went looking for emotional and ultimately physical attachment elsewhere. He's a victim of a cheating, lying, selfish wife who doesn't appreciate a good, loving family man.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

She can't just divorce him, takes the kids, the house, child support, alimony, retirement accounts, etc?

You can try and justify cheating all you want, it's wrong under any circumstance and all of the blame falls entirely on the cheater.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

rubymoon said:


> Why do you (those who think it's about them) apply it to yourself???
> 
> Do you also think "it's Me!!" when you watch Spiderman or Ironman??
> 
> ...


This is so much happy horsesh!t.....

Your guy cheated on you because he wanted to. Okay, you made mistakes as a partner, you zigged when when you should have zagged...

Big wup.....

Nothing you did gave him the right to cheat on you. Not one damn thing. And the fact that you believe your own bullsh!t is informative to us here and only shows us how codependent and self-hating you are. Your posts reek of self hatred. 

You know what? You need to wake the fvck up and start loving yourself. Your partner cheated because he had the opportunity and the desire. That's the ugly facts. Accept it and move on. You did nothing to deserve what he did to you. He's scum.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Lol,.even a gigolo is giving advice to the victims of infidelity. Because he's an expert.


No Chappy, I'm an expert in tax law and some forms of commercial law. Ain't nobody an expert in human nature. Im just telling ya'll what was said to me.





nickgtg said:


> You can try and justify cheating all you want, it's wrong under any circumstance and all of the blame falls entirely on the cheater.


Actually she did and married a guy who actually gave a crap about her. Her ex married a couple more. And yes she was a client but the story is the same with most of them.

I don't know whether its intentional or its just such a highly charged emotional issue but you guys are really twisting it around when you say I'm (we) are justifying cheating. A few of us commenting on how someone may get to where they are or even how they rationalize an action is not "justifying" it. 
Believe it when I say that most everybody here knows that divorce and several other options are a likely better choice than cheating.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

rubymoon said:


> *For some people, there is no marriage by the time they cheat. *Their spouse is a stranger. And there is nothing that holds them together other than mortgage and other emotionless obligations. *So, they don't even feel like they are cheating. *


And they wouldn't be. IF they UNEQUIVOCALLY told their partner that they considered themselves no longer married and then made preparations to separate and divorce. 

But to continue on in the UNmarriage and PRETEND like they ARE married, all the while sneaking off behind their spouse's back to go f*ck someone else, makes them cowards, liars and abusers.

There is NO EXCUSE that can JUSTIFY that. NONE.

I don't care what the BS has apparently done or didn't do. 

That only has any bearing on the relationship AFTER the WS takes FULL ownership, responsibility and accountability for the betrayal, with NO blame shifting. 

If the BS commits to R and the WS is prepared to WAIT until the BS is fully ready to discuss the marriage issues prior to the affair, both COMMUNICATING how to meet the EACH OTHERS needs in an appropriately loving way, then all well and good. 

IF the WS is not prepared to wait around until the BS is ready for a full accounting of the marriage, they always have the option to leave don't they?


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

While I'm not denying his post has stirred up some healthy debate on current CWI issues; apart from the first few posts, OP is not saying much. 

Has he left the building? :scratchhead:


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Sorry but the girl is right. When a woman cheats on a man, her interest level in that man is all but gone. Re-read some of the post by the girls. If some of the girls wouldn't get slammed, they'd tell you that.


Sorry, dude, but if that was the case (and sometimes it might be):
1. They wouldn't need to go behind anyone's back, if they really didn't care they could just get a divorce or be honest about being in the marriage just for practical reasons (kids, mortgages, or whatever).
2. They wouldn't try to get an R because they would be long gone, marriage-wise, so there really would be no point in investigating the whys of the cheating any further.
3. To bring that up _after _ being caught and while trying to get a "second chance" IS the mother of all bull****s...


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Let me give you one a little more consistent with reality.
> 
> Husband feels the spark is gone after several years of marriage. He's a big dog at the office and acquired a big house, expensive cars and the prestigious lifestyle. Unlike his marriage, his career is exciting along with the trenchant, well dressed career women around and about. (of course we know he only works so hard for his family, right?) When not working, he'd rather spend time watching football than with his wife, especially since she put on a few pounds over the years. She deserves being ignored because she doesn't do what it takes to stay in shape.
> But we know is all her fault she went looking for emotional and ultimately physical attachment elsewhere. He's a victim of a cheating, lying, selfish wife who doesn't appreciate a good, loving family man.


You still answer with apples when faced with oranges.
The point is that cheating IS a form of abuse (one of the nastier forms of emotional abuse) and is by no means justified by the action of the BS just as nothing a battered spouse might have done would justify physical abuse. NOTHING.
Nothing gives you the right to abuse your spouse.
If you do you have ALWAYS 100% responsibility of your actions, and you can lay no blame on the abused.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

italianjob said:


> NOTHING.
> Nothing gives you the right to abuse your spouse.
> If you do you have ALWAYS 100% responsibility of your actions, and you can lay no blame on the abused.


I'm going to say again what I said above. I don't know whether its intentional or its just such a highly charged emotional issue but you guys are really twisting it around when you say I'm (we) are justifying cheating. A few of us *commenting on how someone may get to where they are or even how they rationalize an action is not "justifying" it. *
Believe it when I say that most everybody here knows that divorce and several other options are a likely better choice than cheating. Like it or not, more than a few people are going to go down cheater street when the relationship doesn't measure up to what they expected. You guys are dealing with reality and the main problem with taking responsibility, it that is done after the fact. I'm pointing out that certain behavior in a BS may exacerbate the chances so if you stop the behavior, you lessen the chance. You guys already do that when you tell guys to be more alpha and less beta.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> I'm going to say again what I said above. I don't know whether its intentional or its just such a highly charged emotional issue but you guys are really twisting it around when you say I'm (we) are justifying cheating. A few of us *commenting on how someone may get to where they are or even how they rationalize an action is not "justifying" it. *
> Believe it when I say that most everybody here knows that divorce and several other options are a likely better choice than cheating. *Like it or not, more than a few people are going to go down cheater street.*


I don't like it, but I accept it for what it is, people screw up all the time, after all we're human. What I fail to understand is, why is it so hard to say: "Hey, I screwed up, I did it because I didn't think, I was stupid, I placed my own pleasure before the health of my family. I apologize, can you forgive me, what can I do to make it up to you?"

Why the need for abusing the person who already got kicked in the belly? And why defend it?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

The threadjacks are turning the whole TAM community into a joke...

They are happening far too often these days.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> I'm going to say again what I said above. I don't know whether its intentional or its just such a highly charged emotional issue but you guys are really twisting it around when you say I'm (we) are justifying cheating. A few of us *commenting on how someone may get to where they are or even how they rationalize an action is not "justifying" it. *
> Believe it when I say that most everybody here knows that divorce and several other options are a likely better choice than cheating. Like it or not, more than a few people are going to go down cheater street when the relationship doesn't measure up to what they expected. You guys are dealing with reality and the main problem with taking responsibility, it that is done after the fact. I'm pointing out that certain behavior in a BS may exacerbate the chances so if you stop the behavior, you lessen the chance. You guys already do that when you tell guys to be more alpha and less beta.


While I agree that:
- many cheaters will try to "rationalize" their behaviour with this line of reasoning.
- a lot of people will go down cheater Street when the relationship doesn't measure up to what they expected (and that's true also when what they expected wasn't really reasonable)

I still have to disagree with the core of your reasoning:
1. It really doesn't work as a rationalization, because it's not really rational to answer with abuse to a perceived (or real) shortcoming in your spouse contribution to the marriage (to reprise a previous example, it's not rational to beat up your wife because she doesn't clean the way you want, or your husband because he doesn't mow the lawn). It's obvious that cheating will not solve the problem in your marriage, but will add a new problem maybe even worse than the one you already had.
2. To take blame for driving your spouse to cheating does nothing but entitle your spouse to repeat that behaviour if something else should be not of his/her liking in the relationship in the future. It's like advising a battered wife to try and be a better cook. She's a battered wife because she has a violent husband not because of her shortcomings (true or not true), so being better at housework won't solve her problem.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> I'll clarify it now. If a spouse treats their spouse badly, belittling them, ignoring them, and destroying their self esteem, if their spouse divorces them, they are not guiltless in the reason for divorce.


Nobody ever said that, and if they did it would be inaccurate. Divorce is simply choosing to dissolve the relationship because of the problems. And those problems are shared between both spouses.
As opposed when someone cheats, that is their decision to handle the problems in the marriage in an inappropriate, inexcusable, and unacceptable way. The BS IS guiltless in that sense. BS isn't responsible for WS's horrible decision. They are still responsible for the state of the marriage along with the WS




> Ok Dawg, you tell me. If you were going to configure your house to mitigate break ins, are you going to listen to a person with years of experience breaking into houses or the neighbor belly aching about his house being ransacked by burglars.


Apples and oranges, and completely irrelevant. This isn't break ins. This is the attitude of someone that doesn't think they have a responsibility to be decent to someone else in real life. Might as well say its your right to go spit in another man's face.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I don't like it, but I accept it for what it is, people screw up all the time, after all we're human. What I fail to understand is, why is it so hard to say: "Hey, I screwed up, I did it because I didn't think, I was stupid, I placed my own pleasure before the health of my family. I apologize, can you forgive me, what can I do to make it up to you?"


Oh come on now. Its not that simple. I just HAS to be something us BS's did to cause them to cheat. We should understand that and do whatever is in our power to cater to the needs of the person that cheated so it doesn't happen again.


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