# How do you know?



## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

I will give some background since I am unsure of how to link my previous thread.

I left my husband last year in June due to trust issues, and I relocated with our son to a city about 2 hours away. We were in a bad place mostly due to him lying. I found out he had been talking/texting other women that I didn't know, and this wasn't the first time he got caught. On top of that I had a job where I worked 12 hour night shifts, so I really didn't know what all went on. But long story short I left. After moving with our son I quickly got into a routine, and we were doing ok. Don't get me wrong I still struggled with all we went through but I had peace of mind which I can't say I had before. 

From the day I left my husband wanted me back, and wanted us to work. He would tell me that he knew where he went wrong, and ask for a chance to redeem himself. Well after 3 months I decided to give it a try and allow him to move with us once he had a job. My only request was that there be no texting/talking to women unless it was strictly work related. He told me that he learned his lesson, and that would not be an issue anymore. 

Ok lets fast forward to March 2014 I found out that not only was my husband talking to the women that I found out about the previous year, but that he actually never stopped talking to her. I was in shock to say the least. After confronting him about it he would say that's nothing to worry about, but I had pretty much checked out by then. After a while (maybe 3-4 weeks) I started to feel like maybe I was being unreasonable, and I woke him up in the middle of the night for a talk. At that time he told me that she was only a friend, and that he stopped talking to her because of the trouble it caused. I believed again. Well one day while at work I just logged into his FB account, and they were actually chatting. He would immediately delete the messages once sent/received. So while there were no texts on the phone bill, there would be no way to know about fb messages.

I told him I was done, and we argued. As always he would respond by telling me I'm not perfect (I never claimed to be), but he doesn't seem to understand the fact that he never stopped this 'friendship' is an issue. The next morning he was different, he wants us to work, and he was sorry. Now he's all about me now, and insists that he isn't talking with her anymore. My dilemma is why pursue me if you were going to continue to lie. Please understand that I never asked for him to reconcile, as far as I was concerned I was done. Second how would one know if this is a sincere change and that the same behavior won't be repeated? Although I have no proof that anything physical ever happened between them I don't see why anyone would go through such measures for just a 'friend'.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your story.

The important thing here is to look at his actions and not his words.

He has said all the 'right words' in the past and now. The actions have not backed this up.

Good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

And he really, seriously doesn't "get" the trouble he brought to his marriage?  :wtf:


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The only way to know if he's sincere is how transparent he becomes. He cheated on you and you took him back, apparently without any monitoring, so that he was able to just go farther underground.

There is no way to trust him ever again. After many years, you *might* have close to regained the trust you had before he cheated, but ONLY if he does way, way, way more work on things than it sounds like he's willing to.

As for the why, it's because he's selfish. All cheaters are. He COULD, so he DID. It really is that simple. And he WILL do it again if you don't lay down the law, and even then, he probably will anyway.

So, he needs to willingly and happily give you every password for every device he has, including bank statements, work emails, the works. And he must NEVER change them without telling you. You will want to monitor him a lot at first, then less as time goes on. He MUSt write a no contact letter to every OW he has communicated with, and you must watch him send them. And if he EVER has contact with them again, you are DONE.

You must be willing to divorce him. Otherwise you have no leverage here. If it were me, I'd never have taken him back without some VERY strict ground rules in place.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

So that's what like 4 chances? 

You say no contact with other women. He agrees. Then he contacts other women. Says he won't do it again.

Repeat.
Repeat.
Repeat.

We remember Einstein's definition of insanity right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

He's not going to change. I appreciate you left and then gave him another chance. He does love you, just not enough to meet your simple request- no contacting women socially. He's a cake eater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

He claims he stopped talking to her? How long ago was it that you caught him this last time? Last week or so?? He hasn't logged in enough time to say he's stopped talking to her.

His words mean NOTHING. It is his ACTIONS that you need to remind yourself to make the focus.

He wants his cake and eat it too right now...and is scrambling to maintain his domestic comforts. His immediate blameshifting and now puppy-dog-tail-between-his-legs is is all part of the cycle.

If you sweep this under the carpet again...he will resume his relationship with the OW and he will go deeper underground with it. You ended the separation too early...and probably ought to have more defined boundaries with defined consequences. Without those, he will have no reason to change and you will resort to default behaviors that make him think he is in the clear. DON'T FEEL GUILTY FOR BEING PISSED AT YOUR PHILANDERING HUSBAND!!


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

meohme said:


> I will give some background since I am unsure of how to link my previous thread.


All you have to do is post on that thread. There is no "linking". It would be better if you kept your story on the one thread. You could copy and paste your entire first post on this thread into a reply box on your first thread, then delete this thread.



meohme said:


> My dilemma is why pursue me if you were going to continue to lie.


He probably thinks he won't lie to you again. But his past actions speak volumes about his integrity.



meohme said:


> Second how would one know if this is a sincere change and that the same behavior won't be repeated?


Sincere change takes a lot longer than this! If ever. He's done nothing to gain your trust and everything to lose it forever.



meohme said:


> Although I have no proof that anything physical ever happened between them


It's still deception. Only a matter of degree.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

meohme, 

I'll be succinct: This is the classic "Cycle of Abuse." 

Now if you are anything like me, your head possibly just thought, "Hey wait a minute--no! He has never hit me once!" But one of my favorite sites is Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse website. Yes it's kind of hokey with the cat and all that, but it gets the message across in a simple way and for that, I am very grateful and refer to it often. 

Okay, here is the Cycle of Abuse on Dr. Irene's site:

_"*The Tension-Building Stage:* The angry person becomes increasingly controlling during this period, which may take days, weeks, or even years to evolve and progress. Limits are imposed on the partner. For example, the abuser may decide what clothes look "right" on the partner, or what image is portrayed. They may try to define whom the partner may or may not speak with and about what, etc. The control is insidious and progressive. As tension and control increase, the partner attempts to accommodate the abuser in order to keep peace, to please the abuser, or for some similar reason. Despite actions the partner takes, the abuser becomes increasingly remote, contemptuous, critical, preoccupied, or otherwise on edge. The tension and control increase until culminating in the abuse stage.

*The Abuse Stage:* A major verbal, emotional or physically abusive incident occurs that was instigated by the abuser. A trivial event is often used to trigger the main event. The abuser actively looks for excuses to blow up over, and may set their partner up in a no-win situation. One angry man found reason to verbally abuse his girlfriend and destroy her property because he did not like the size of the pot she was boiling eggs in. Needless to say, the pot had nothing to do with anything. This opportunist had simply received a nod from a former lover, decided to change girlfriends, and wanted an out. The victim is often left feeling hurt - and confused.

*The Remorse Stage:* Once the blows are delivered, the abuser is calmed. Having blown off steam and regaining composure, the abusive person is full of apologies and promises never to do "it" again - if the partner distances. The more distanced the victim, the more intensely the abuser pursues...and pursues...and pursues. The abuser can be so charming and complimentary, the codependent victim's heart breaks. There is a compelling need to believe their abuser's promises and pleas and take them back. The more codependent and insecure the partner, the more vulnerable they are to the partner's attentive remorse. Abusers during this phase are wonderful! A "normal" person is unlikely to be so compelling and persistent in winning over their partner's love - because they have no reason to be.

As the relationship progresses, the abuse cycle typically escalates in intensity and in the temporal contiguity of its negative aspects. The abuse lasts longer and becomes more pronounced, while the loving remorse dwindles.

The abuser loves a good challenge. The goal is to win the victim back, at any price. At a distance, the partner is perceived as emotionally "safe." The harder the abuser has to work to win back his or her victim, the more the victim is appreciated. Once the relationship resumes, the abuser's mistrust prompts their poor recall of any tender feelings. Their fear inevitably powers the resumption of the abuse cycle. "_

Your husband abuses you by being sexual with someone outside the marriage--whether that sexuality is verbal or physical. And after he has abused you, he enters the stage where he will win you back no matter what. The trick for you to understand is that he does not try to win you back because he cares for you; he tries to win you back TO PROVE TO HIMSELF THAT HE CAN. It has nothing to do with seeing you as an individual and wanting to make amends and everything to do with reassuring himself that his fear (being alone) won't come true!!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You took him back and there were no consequences so he continued what he never stopped. 

Words mean nothing.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Sadly this is simple 

This is about respect for you, for you lives, your child, everything and he has NONE

He's showing you what he thinks of you every time.

I tend to feel after the second time then its' all done. If they haven't got the 'trust' and 'respect' bit then love is not enough and never will be and you will be posting on here ad nauseum as he continues to rip your lives to pieces

You know what to do


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the replies. I do believe he's trying, but at the same time I've seen this before. I can't believe I have allowed myself to get caught in this same situation. I am so angry with myself.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

meohme said:


> I will give some background since I am unsure of how to link my previous thread.
> 
> I left my husband last year in June due to trust issues, and I relocated with our son to a city about 2 hours away. We were in a bad place mostly due to him lying. I found out he had been talking/texting other women that I didn't know, and this wasn't the first time he got caught. On top of that I had a job where I worked 12 hour night shifts, so I really didn't know what all went on. But long story short I left. After moving with our son I quickly got into a routine, and we were doing ok. Don't get me wrong I still struggled with all we went through but I had peace of mind which I can't say I had before.
> 
> ...


If, due to my own actions, I had to choose between a "friend"...ANY friend....and my wife and child....I could walk away from ANY friend I have without batting an eye. It would be over and I'd be dead to them.

Your husband has issues. You set a boundary, he broke it. You've given him plenty of chances and he continues to break it. What makes you think this time will be different.

You need to remember this line and repeat it often.

"I've given you chances and you keep chatting with her. You've promised countless times that you will stop and you don't. You've proven to me that you won't stop talking with her so I'm done. Save your words, they have zero meaning. You have no integrity. You promise promise promise, but never actually do what you promise. I have ZERO reasons to ever believe your promises. I must move on."


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Never assume someone likes you by their sweetness . Sometimes you are just an option when they are bored


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## Lexigirl (Apr 25, 2014)

Perhaps a little more investigating is in order. If you still don't believe him. So if you have her number call her and ask her out right or if you have access to his facebook message her and ask her. My guess is she will be honest with you if he isn't. Then you get your answer one way or another you will need to decided what you really want to do. Forgive him or leave him? Remember to always handle yourself with grace and dignity. Good Luck!


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

Well I have been doing a lot of thinking and unfortunately it has gotten me nowhere. I already have all the passwords to my H accounts but that doesn't seem to matter. I once told him that I don't see him changing his habits but it's a matter of finding ways to hide it. Hence the fb messages that he would delete with whoever, but at the same time leaving the messages b/t him and his guy friends. 

I am very much an introvert and very private. I decided I should go ahead and tell my mom about what's going, and boy did that set me back. I know I mentioned that I moved about 2 hrs away and I have no family here. She told me to use him because I need help with our son. I wasn't expecting that from her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

What do they actually talk about? Are they sexting? Talking about him or her or you?

Irregardless, you set a boundary and he crossed it, what, three times now? If him texting another woman is a deal breaker for you and he knows it then that's it. You've given him three chances and he isn't stopping.

Do you love him anymore? Do you want to?


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

sandc said:


> What do they actually talk about? Are they sexting? Talking about him or her or you?
> 
> Irregardless, you set a boundary and he crossed it, what, three times now? If him texting another woman is a deal breaker for you and he knows it then that's it. You've given him three chances and he isn't stopping.
> 
> Do you love him anymore? Do you want to?


I have no idea about what they talk about.

I honestly can't say that I love him. All of this has taken its toll. My hesitation is that I don't have a support system here. I know I wouldn't be the first woman in this position but it doesn't make it any easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Okay. Well, really anything that steals his time away from you and your child is not good. He is most likely in an EA with this person. If you love him and want to work it out, there are things you can still try. If you are done, then there is another path. 

We can better advise you once you tell us what your decision is, at this point. You've gone this long there is not rush and you can always change your mind.

TAM can be a pretty good support system. Sometimes you have to sort through all opinions to find the pearls of wisdom though.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So have you told him that he has killed your love for him?

Will he now sign a post-affair agreement relating to the divorce issues?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

meohme said:


> Although I have no proof that anything physical ever happened between them I don't see why anyone would go through such measures for just a 'friend'.


I don't think he would either, except for one of two reasons. 

He doesn't fear that you'll pull the trigger on ending the marriage, given your twice "redrawn" lines in the sand.

*or*

He doesn't care. He's still having an affair.

Chances are he is still in the affair and I think you've played out all the consequence options; except one. Divorce and don't look back.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

to answer one of your original questions, he pursues you because you left. I don't think I could say it any better than affair care did. 

My man did the same with me. He did things knowing I didn't accept them, mostly the lying, I would finally break up with him, then he would pursue me terribly. He had promised everything and more, given just enough in action to make me believe, but the desire wasn't really there and so of course the actions tailed off to nothing and we're eventually gone and the behavior returned. 

When he was seeing the OW his behaviour fits the cycle of abuse that affair care posted down to a tee. He created the arguments from nothing, became verbally and physically abusive so he could excuse his going off to fvck. Once he was found out, the physical abuse pretty much ended but he continued in the push pull behaviour, he continued wanting the relationship and prepared to do all that was needed but not really all because he refused to stop lying as well as a few other unacceptable major things. 

He pursues you back because it's a game. And he doesn't want to lose. The relationship finishes on his terms not yours. He doesn't want you, he makes it clear. But his fragile ego can't cope with being ditched either.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Also, what your mum said is not good! 

Seeing as you are shocked by what she said, is this out of character? Could you go back to her and ask what she meant by that? You really could do with some better support from her. If that is her line though, you need to fully disregard what she said. Staying with him just to use him will give you a long slow road to unhappiness and the longer on that road the less happy you become. And my, what a screwed up house for your child to be brought up in. Is this really what your mum recommends?!!


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Remains said:


> Also, what your mum said is not good!
> 
> Seeing as you are shocked by what she said, is this out of character? Could you go back to her and ask what she meant by that? You really could do with some better support from her. If that is her line though, you need to fully disregard what she said. Staying with him just to use him will give you a long slow road to unhappiness and the longer on that road the less happy you become. And my, what a screwed up house for your child to be brought up in. Is this really what your mum recommends?!!


Excellent point. I missed that in her original post. Yeah, don't listen to your mother on this count.

Your son will be a man some day and married, one hopes. Is this the lesson you want to teach him? That men are nothing more than "things" that a woman can use? How will approach his relationships with such knowledge?

Conversely do you want to teach him that men can get away with treating their wives poorly and face no consequences?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Listen one thing is this 

*You are you* 

You came into this world alone and will leave it that way.

It's great to hook up with significant others wives / husbands etc kids the whole lot over a lifetime BUT you are YOU

You have your own head - your own mind 

It is great having support, encouragement from others friends and family but it is what *YOU* do in your own head THAT COUNTS

If you really know what is right and wrong about your life then YOU do not _need_ any other people to get you through - it's nice having the affirmation but in you heart -*trust yourself *

Having great other people around you is a bonus but I for one would never rely on any of it Dealing with an adulterer and watching how other people support that way of life has shook me to my core over the last few years and I know ultimately I rely on *me*, my kids rely on* me*.

I trust myself above ALL others 

There is a way forward for you - you need nobody else. 
It's nice to have them but you don't need them


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> So have you told him that he has killed your love for him?
> 
> Will he now sign a post-affair agreement relating to the divorce issues?


What is a post-affair agreement?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

Headspin said:


> Listen one thing is this
> 
> *You are you*
> 
> ...


This is very true. As hard as it is at the end of the day I have to look myself in the mirror, and I'm the one that has to live with the decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

sandc said:


> Excellent point. I missed that in her original post. Yeah, don't listen to your mother on this count.
> 
> Your son will be a man some day and married, one hopes. Is this the lesson you want to teach him? That men are nothing more than "things" that a woman can use? How will approach his relationships with such knowledge?
> 
> Conversely do you want to teach him that men can get away with treating their wives poorly and face no consequences?


_Posted via Mobile Device_

This is where I struggle the most. I want to teach him how value himself as well as others when he's older. Right now he isn't getting that from either of us. I honestly don't want him to be like his dad. My husband asked besides the trust issues there isn't anything wrong. And I'm like trust is pretty much everything. So where does that leave us. I'm supposed to be like yes he's a liar, but he's good at everything else??


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## waylan (Apr 23, 2014)

I'm confused. Did your husband cheat or sext or was he just chatting with someone of the opposite sex?


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

waylan said:


> I'm confused. Did your husband cheat or sext or was he just chatting with someone of the opposite sex?


I don't have proof the he cheated physically. What I do know is that last year I left him because he was lying about different things and talking/texting this woman was one of them. After 3 months I decided to reconcile and I told him talking/texting women was a deal breaker. He assured me that he learned and that wouldn't be an issue anymore. Well turns out he never stopped communicating with her. A few weeks after confronting him I asked him if he was still talking with her, and he told me he wasn't. A couple of days later I checked his fb and they were chatting through there and he was deleting the messages after sending/receiving. I have no clue as to what they talk/text about, so I have to use my imagination about what they were talking about at 11/12/1 at night. He says they were just friends, and I don't know her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Your so called H---is doing damage control, as fast as he can---as someone said---actions not words, are what you need to look at

He lies/manipulates/cons/deceives, and you allow it, and enable him

Forget what your mother said---this is your life, and the only one wallowing in misery right now is you-------the way to change that is to file for D

No matter what you do your H just goes underground and continues his cheating----if he really wanted the mge to work, he would have stopped LONG AGO


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

Question for you all. As a BS have you been made to feel like it's your fault things aren't working out. I admit that I don't feel the same and it shows in our lack of conversation and intimacy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm sorry to say but it's pretty obvious that he's only wanting to reconcile and stay because of his child, your feelings very obviously mean nothing to him from what you've said here. Anyone sincerely wanting to repair the marriage would not even dream of contacting the OW should it risk the relationship again. 

Even if it's not a physical relationship, if they're talking that much and he's actively removing evidence, it's an emotional affair, which given the opportunity would likely turn physical. 

You've given him chances, you can't trust him, don't blame yourself for his selfish behavior, he is choosing his path.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

meohme said:


> Question for you all. As a BS have you been made to feel like it's your fault things aren't working out. I admit that I don't feel the same and it shows in our lack of conversation and intimacy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's called living in marriage limbo. The result of a false R. It's difficult enough to R with a genuinely remorseful spouse; but when he continues to prove that you can't trust his word on no contact; R will not be successful. If he was truly remorseful, he would have ended contact.

I can't imagine too many men that would risk their marriage for just a "friend". And men don't typically continue an EA very long without sex being involved.

To me, the circumstantial evidence of a PA is there. The continued messaging, the lying about no contact, the hiding of evidence, the opportunity for physical contact (if not now, before).

If you had made up your mind to leave him before; what's changed? Just one thing as I see it. Now you have yet another confirmation that the EA/PA hasn't stopped.


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

badmemory said:


> It's called living in marriage limbo. The result of a false R. It's difficult enough to R with a genuinely remorseful spouse; but when he continues to prove that you can't trust his word on no contact; R will not be successful. If he was truly remorseful, he would have ended contact.
> 
> I can't imagine too many men that would risk their marriage for just a "friend". And men don't typically continue an EA very long without sex being involved.
> 
> ...



It's true that I had my mind made up to leave, and since all this happened I did suggest that he should go. For some reason my head is not in the same space as before. I do feel like my confidence in myself has been shaken. I guess a part of me asks 'what if the problem is me?' And that's the vibe I get from hence my previous question. 

I just would like to know that I am not alone in feeling the way I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## meohme (Apr 2, 2014)

These past couple of weeks have been so hard for me. I have been more emotional than usual and crying a lot. I had a therapy session scheduled last week but it was rescheduled due conflicts with my therapist's schedule. I haven't been sleeping well( I HAVE to get that under control) but it's amazing that my husband is able to sleep like a baby. I think it hurts me more that my husband seems to have no problems with way things are. Actually I don't think he's fine he's just waiting on me to say/do something first. Which in my mind things should be opposite. 

I know therapy 101 is you have to let go of the past I'm just having really hard time with that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

meohme said:


> These past couple of weeks have been so hard for me. I have been more emotional than usual and crying a lot. I had a therapy session scheduled last week but it was rescheduled due conflicts with my therapist's schedule. I haven't been sleeping well( I HAVE to get that under control) but it's amazing that my husband is able to sleep like a baby. I think it hurts me more that my husband seems to have no problems with way things are. Actually I don't think he's fine he's just waiting on me to say/do something first. Which in my mind things should be opposite.
> 
> I know therapy 101 is you have to let go of the past I'm just having really hard time with that.


*Really? Letting go of the past is sometimes not possible and is sometimes not desirable.*

Learn to live with the past, which might mean forgiving someone or moving on might be preferable to some airy notion of "letting go of the past."


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

To the OP. You come here asking for answers when it seems that your husband has given you all the answers loud and clear and with out ambiguity. The answer could not be more clear if God carved it out on the side of a mountain.

You already know what the answer is but you refuse to accept it.

Embrace the answer and doing so will set you free.


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