# There's more, there always is...



## Horse on Ice

I’m not sure where to begin. 

I don’t like my wife and I haven’t for years. I think I used to like her, but that was long, long ago. I don’t remember the last time I felt that she was proud of me and respected me.

When we argue, she usually calls me names, but is very quick to point out that I did something wrong if I respond by calling her a name.
She frequently undermines my authority in front of our kids. Even to go so far as to tell our kids they don’t need to do what I’ve told them to do, or they won’t get into trouble if they don’t do it. What I’ve told them to do is usually some type of household chore or similar.

This last argument started when she saw torn letters on the kitchen counter. That she left there. That I mentioned almost 2 weeks prior. It seems trivial that I mentioned that and did not just throw the trash away, but there is a frequency to similar incidents. The coffee maker. She removes the previous pod, makes coffee and then leaves the area. Leaving the pod on the counter. Walking right past the trash can. Literally, you cannot leave the kitchen area heading toward the rest of the house without walking past the trash can. The torn letters. On the counter RIGHT BESIDE THE TRASH CAN. She had to walk past the trash can when she tore them up and left them, and then AGAIN after I mentioned the trash on the counter. Then when she saw her trash and that I did not throw it away already nearly 2 weeks later, she blew up, going on about how much she does around the house for everybody else, that she cleans up behind the rest of us all the time.

Some clarification here: I do all of the grocery shopping and cooking and anything that deals with our finances. I did all of the yard work until our kids became old enough to do it (they started about 4 years ago), now I do about 1/4 of the mowing. I also do some of the laundry (not half though). Since she has some health issues, she gets the children to take the clothes out of the dryer 8 out of 10 times that I don’t and move the clothes from the washer to the dryer 9 out of 10 times that I don’t. She does start the wash loads most of the time. Folding, she does some, our kids do most. If they want to watch TV, they fold while they watch, that’s the rule we started in the hopes of naturally curbing the amount of TV time. It kind of worked. 

Argument continued. She wanted concert tickets for Christmas, I got them, the concert was a few months later (important detail here!), so I set up a get away for us. Two days before the concert, she mentioned that she understood, and she suggested that I go to classes the day after the concert since I missed the week before and I was falling behind. (I take college courses on-site while working full-time). This must have sparked something, because the next day my brain suddenly put together that my Lab practicum was the same day! I told her. The next day was horrible, argument, nit-picking, crappy attitude. No reason given. It escalated, her telling me to cancel the hotel reservation, she didn’t want to stay overnight when she could use that day off at the house to catch up on her work. That she didn’t want to just sit at my school while I was taking the test. We argued more, then came the history. I didn’t ask her the right way to marry me. She should have stuck with her first answer which was no. It’s funny to her that her husband doesn’t even care, but there is this other guy that pines over her as the one that got away. I’ve never put her first, etc.

I reminded her that when I began college that I would need her support. And since I planned all of this prior to the current semester even starting, I had no way of knowing the class schedule. I had every intent of skipping class, but could not afford to miss this test since it accounts for nearly 20% of the overall grade and that coupled with the numerous other classes I missed (work full time remember?) and the fact I’m not a genius and therefore have not gotten 100% on all my other assignments, meant that completely missing that test would bring me perilously close to failing.
Her response? Well, she skipped classes when she was in college and graduated with honors anyway! I asked her how many of those classes she skipped were on test day and got no answer for that.

I’m tired.

She’s only happy when I’m doing something for her. And it seems like each thing needs to be bigger and better than the last. When we do something for me, she may seem okay or even happy with it at the time, but later on at any argument time, it becomes a “I only did it for you, I didn’t want to, you never do anything that I want to do”.

I used to make breakfast for her fairly regularly during the week on workdays and virtually every weekend morning. Then I realized that it was never reciprocated. On days we were both working, I made breakfast, giving her more time to get ready. On days when only I had to work, she didn’t even get out of bed! On days when only she had to work and I wasn’t sick, she still made sure I got up to deal with the kids, and therefore would be able to make her breakfast!

And sex. 4, maybe 5 times a year. Health issues remember? She’s had a hysterectomy, so that makes it more difficult. We’ve had discussions about me feeling that she does not want to have sex with me. She assures me that she does. That she has tried to initiate on several occasions. Well, those occasions were almost always the night before she didn’t have to work but I did, and LATE at night/early morning. Found out sex for her is painful and dry, hysterectomies cause vaginal dystrophy. Never knew that was a thing. So I did some research, found some lubricants that were supposed to be better than the typical KY, bought many varieties to find out what works best.

Some helped, some didn’t, but it made it a bit easier. She felt like she was tightening up down there and thought that maybe there could be something that would help to “stretch” it a bit to accommodate me more easily. I suggested that she search online for something that she would feel comfortable with since I had no idea of what may help. After a few months of nothing on that, I brought up that I wanted to feel like she wanted ME, and that searching for something like that would show me that she WAS interested in having sex with me. After a few months of nothing on that, I brought it up again and was told she didn’t want to look for that on her phone, and she felt uncomfortable using anything like that with me around anyway. So, to summarize, our sex life is dead with no possibility of revival.

I did get oral to completion a few years back (1st time in a while). I was shocked (mainly because we were currently talking divorce at that time) so I asked her why. Her response? “Well, you did such and such chore, so I thought I would do something for you”. I didn’t like that, so I told her that I didn’t want her to do that because I did something, I wanted her to do that because she wanted to please me. Guess who’s not gotten oral sex since that time…

Remember the guy pining over her as the one that got away? Yep, me too. Oh, this wasn’t the first time that this has been brought up by her, but one thing I’ve never done to her is bring up anything close to another woman even thinking about me. Want to take a guess as to who gets asked “are you cheating on me?” or “is there somebody else?”? Yep, me. Want to take a guess as to who has to explain why he gets home so late? I mean, never mind the fact that the drive to work is over an hour, or the drive to school is about 2 hours. And each trip home starts out during rush hour, and I drink inordinate amounts of coffee, so a bathroom stop on the way usually happens. With that, I’m usually home about 6:30 and work ends at 5:00. But that’s “getting home late”, school nights, are much later but the timing is on track. Oh, and don’t forget, I do all of the grocery shopping. And that includes when she (or the kids) may need something for work or school that has to be picked up today because it’s needed tomorrow. But next week I’ll get accused of getting home late and “I might as well be a single mother, cause your never here”. 

If it weren’t for my kids I would hate coming home. I probably wouldn’t.

I walk on eggshells around her. Yes, I read the book. I don’t know how to put it into practice, so I practice avoidance as much as I can. I fear conversations with her because a few weeks later, my words will be brought back up in some unflattering way. Want an example? Sure you do. We’ve been having issues for years now and her controlling, negative, angry attitude wears on me. So, after one particularly explosive argument, after we went to our separate corners and calmed down, I went back to discuss with her that I think I have finally changed my opinion of divorce and that I think I agree with her that maybe we should divorce. And then I gave her the reason. The way she acted towards me disgusted me. A couple of weeks later, she brought that discussion up but with a twist, I said that SHE disgusts me. I tried to correct that statement, but no, THAT was how she remembered it, so it must be true. I then explained to her that during that discussion, I gave examples of HOW she treated me that disgusted me, never did I say that SHE did.

Want to take a guess as to who HAS told who that “you disgust me”? You guessed right again! Want to take a stab on whether it was more than once or not? Wow! Are you living my life? How do you know these things? For the bonus round, want to try your luck on who has told who “I hate you!”

I can’t take it anymore. I’m tired of her constant anger. The arguments where nothing gets resolved, only blamed on me. The cursing and name-calling and the hypocrisy of it all.

It’s amazing how so many people think the world of her because she is so patient and kind and cheerful.

It’s amazing how so many people surprise me when they tell me they are referring to my wife.

There’s more, there always is…


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## Mr.Married

I usually smash a nail down with a big hammer but in this case I see what you really need is some venting. Keep spilling it out...it will make you feel better. You have the right to 
express yourself. This is you first step to fixing things. Your about to see many post about learning to respect yourself. Don't take it to hard, try to listen. Your not going to like some
of what you hear. It is really tough to unscramble your head when your so frustrated.


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## Lila

Have you considered counseling, both individual (to help you deal with the resentment and general life stress you're under) and marital?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## TJW

Horse On Ice said:


> there is this other guy that pines over her as the one that got away.
> 
> It’s amazing how so many people think the world of her because she is so patient and kind and cheerful.


Actually, I think the reverse of this is causing her behavior. It is HER who is "pining" over the other guy who "got away".
,
If I'm right ? There ain't nothing, not NOTHING, that you ever do, or don't do, which will make her happy. You always have, and always will, "disgust her".

You are "plan B", she is pissed off about it, and by God, she is going to blame this on you, instead of herself. She is not going to allow exposure of her LIE and her SIN. She is going to make everybody think that she's so "kind and cheerful", but, in reality, she is exactly what Jesus called a "whited sepulchre"....those who make the outside clean, but inside, are full of dead men's bones....


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## Mr.Married

The plan B thing has a little weight. The rest of the hell, fire, and damnation speech I'm not so sure.


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## Keke24

@Horse on Ice

1. How long have you and your wife been together? Married?

2. How does her current behavior compare to her temperament prior to marriage?

3. Weren't there any red flags for her anger, criticism, impatience, entitlement, selfishness and emotional neediness prior to marriage? How did you/her address them?

4. What was your wife's childhood like?

5. What sort of relationship does she have with her parents/siblings/close friends?

6. What is her relationship history? What caused her last break-up?

7. Have you or your wife ever received counseling? For what? How did that go?

@Uptown


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## Thor

Horse, she is who she is.

In the long ago past, there was something really good about her that attracted you. That person is long gone! Who knows why she was different then, or why she has been the way she is now for so long. The bottom line is you are experiencing the real her. Consistently over a long period of time she has been like this with you.

The guy who got away is probably 99% fantasy in her mind. I understand how it is hurtful to you, but I think it is more of an instructive window into her dysfunctional mind than anything else. She may bring him up to hurt you, or she may have some fantasy land magical thinking going on in her mind, but it doesn't matter.

She isn't going to change. Imho the chasm between you two is awfully deep and wide. These aren't simple disagreements on whether to buy a new car, or should you let your teen stay out extra late at a party this weekend.

Since you have kids, it may be worth the Hail Mary hope for a miracle with marriage therapy. You may also benefit from some individual counseling. A person in real life you can talk to about really personal stuff and know it is completely confidential. Your job should provide some free and absolutely confidential counseling via the Employee Assistance Program. Federal law prohibits the counselor from telling the employer that you even attended, so it is truly confidential.

You sound like you're reaching some anger now. Maybe you're starting to feel your own worth and are not willing to put up with her abuse and disrespect. MC and IC are there for your kind of situation.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

This sounds too much like my ex-wife. Stubborn and lazy. I'm not sure there is anything else you do. I think this is just who she is. You have to make the decision if this is the life you can tolerate or not. I wish I could say do X or Y or Z, but I don't think that it will do any good, honestly.

What do you mean by not asking her the right way to marry her? I didn't get that part...did she tell you no first?


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## arbitrator

*If you're not anywhere near your saturation point, then I really don't know where you are!

I say that it's high time for implementing "the 180," as it's so damned apparent that, as far as she's concerned, that you've been summarily relegated to "Plan B" status! Also, make an appointment with a good family law attorney to help you assess your property as well as your custodial rights!

Trust me! This is no equally-yoked marriage that you're a party to! *


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## Mr.Married

I did get oral to completion a few years back (1st time in a while). I was shocked (mainly because we were currently talking divorce at that time) so I asked her why



Did you notice how some things change when the threat starts becoming real and your starting to stand up for yourself? Sometimes it takes the possibility of loss
to shake things up. The more you stand up for yourself...the more things will change. The saying around here is you have to be willing to lose it all to get it back.
Does that make sense to you..it should. Think about it for a bit.

As arbitrator says...I think you should be at your saturation point. Look up "The 180." Make yourself and your needs the new priority. 


Keep up with school !!!!!


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## dadstartingover

This is what it feels like to be the Plan B Provider Guy. You don't want to be Plan B Provider Guy. Ever. What you're experiencing from her is very real disdain. 

Get out. Today. This is only going to get worse.


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## Horse on Ice

Wow! Replies! I'm humbled and grateful... now to see if I've got this multiquote thing down.



Mr.Married said:


> I usually smash a nail down with a big hammer but in this case I see what you really need is some venting. Keep spilling it out...it will make you feel better. You have the right to
> express yourself. This is you first step to fixing things. Your about to see many post about learning to respect yourself. Don't take it to hard, try to listen. Your not going to like some
> of what you hear. It is really tough to unscramble your head when your so frustrated.


Mr.Married, venting is exactly what I needed. It was quite cathartic getting all of this down, I wish I had started this years ago when I initially joined. I had no idea the relief just venting to unbiased strangers would bring. (no, no sarcasm there, that will probably up show later on). Now that's out of the way, I'm a grown man with my big boy pants on, if you usually smash with a big hammer, go ahead. I'm sure it's at least part of what I need now.



Lila said:


> Have you considered counseling, both individual (to help you deal with the resentment and general life stress you're under) and marital?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Lila, we have been to counseling, once many years ago a couple of times (wife's decision) until the counselor suggested they meet one-on-one. After that first meeting, wife said no more, we can do this on our own...



TJW said:


> Actually, I think the reverse of this is causing her behavior. It is HER who is "pining" over the other guy who "got away".
> ,
> If I'm right ? There ain't nothing, not NOTHING, that you ever do, or don't do, which will make her happy. You always have, and always will, "disgust her".
> 
> You are "plan B", she is pissed off about it, and by God, she is going to blame this on you, instead of herself. She is not going to allow exposure of her LIE and her SIN. She is going to make everybody think that she's so "kind and cheerful", but, in reality, she is exactly what Jesus called a "whited sepulchre"....those who make the outside clean, but inside, are full of dead men's bones....


TJW, I don't think she is pining over the other guy, I think she is pining over the ideal of the man she expects me to be, and by her own words to her friend, "I do have high expectations that I don't think he can ever meet". The fact that she brings something like that up (more than once, mind you) suggests to me that it is an immature manipulation tactic.



Mr.Married said:


> The plan B thing has a little weight. The rest of the hell, fire, and damnation speech I'm not so sure.


Mr.Married, thanks for that reply. I'm in agreement, the last part was probably over the top a bit.


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## Horse on Ice

And it looks like I figured out the multiquote thing, so we'll keep this train running...



Keke24 said:


> @Horse on Ice
> 
> 1. How long have you and your wife been together? Married?Together for almost 22 years, married for almost 20.
> 
> 2. How does her current behavior compare to her temperament prior to marriage? Prior to marriage, we were best friends, did all kinds of stuff together, that carried into marriage until kids when she became a stay at home mom
> 
> 3. Weren't there any red flags for her anger, criticism, impatience, entitlement, selfishness and emotional neediness prior to marriage? How did you/her address them? Oh, absolutely! Problem is, I didn't recognize them for what they were. Thought and still think way to often that it's my actions (or non-) that causes her to behave this way. I joined this site back in '15 and found out about books like "NMMNG" and "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and began to see that I'm the quintessential "nice guy" (goes with my Christian upbringing) and she exhibits traits of BPD.
> 
> 4. What was your wife's childhood like? Emotional, verbal & physical abuse. Towards her, her mother and brother. Ran in the family, cause there are stories still told about how grandfather treated his kids. Thought she overcame all of that because she was a psychology major, recognized the abuse and "fixed herself" Oh God, I'm a fool...
> 
> 5. What sort of relationship does she have with her parents/siblings/close friends? Circling negativity and gossip and what close friends?
> 
> 6. What is her relationship history? What caused her last break-up? We never really discussed past relationships, she has an extremely difficult time with the fact that I was involved with any woman other than her, even if before her time, so she never brought her relationships up either.
> 
> 7. Have you or your wife ever received counseling? For what? How did that go? Yes, many years ago (MC) her idea until counselor suggested they meet one-on-one, then after that first meeting alone, she decided we could just do it on our own. In 2016/2017, after reading on TAM how IC was suggested and helpful, I went on my own (we were in marital difficulties then as well) and suggested she do the same. She did, loved her IC and was receptive and excited about the positive changes she could see ahead. I then started back to college (something I tried to do for years, but always got the feeling she didn't want that) and we also moved farther away from both our IC's. It was a pretty good distance to begin with, so the additional travel made it impossible for us both realistically. We haven't been in our new place long enough after getting settled in to take the time to find someone closer.
> 
> 
> @Uptown





Thor said:


> Horse, she is who she is.
> 
> In the long ago past, there was something really good about her that attracted you. That person is long gone! Who knows why she was different then, or why she has been the way she is now for so long. The bottom line is you are experiencing the real her. Consistently over a long period of time she has been like this with you.
> 
> The guy who got away is probably 99% fantasy in her mind. I understand how it is hurtful to you, but I think it is more of an instructive window into her dysfunctional mind than anything else. She may bring him up to hurt you, or she may have some fantasy land magical thinking going on in her mind, but it doesn't matter.
> 
> She isn't going to change. Imho the chasm between you two is awfully deep and wide. These aren't simple disagreements on whether to buy a new car, or should you let your teen stay out extra late at a party this weekend.
> 
> Since you have kids, it may be worth the Hail Mary hope for a miracle with marriage therapy. You may also benefit from some individual counseling. A person in real life you can talk to about really personal stuff and know it is completely confidential. Your job should provide some free and absolutely confidential counseling via the Employee Assistance Program. Federal law prohibits the counselor from telling the employer that you even attended, so it is truly confidential.
> 
> You sound like you're reaching some anger now. Maybe you're starting to feel your own worth and are not willing to put up with her abuse and disrespect. MC and IC are there for your kind of situation.


Thor, I think you just summarized my exact thoughts and emotions very well. Thanks for that.



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> This sounds too much like my ex-wife. Stubborn and lazy. I'm not sure there is anything else you do. I think this is just who she is. You have to make the decision if this is the life you can tolerate or not. I wish I could say do X or Y or Z, but I don't think that it will do any good, honestly.
> 
> What do you mean by not asking her the right way to marry her? I didn't get that part...did she tell you no first?


UDW11, Stubborn - yes. Lazy - depends on your view. When it comes to her work (job), the days do not have enough time. When it comes to being at home without needing to catch up (or get ahead) with her job, then yes. There will be many days where she will come home, state she's really hungry, ask what's for dinner, change into pajamas, eat dinner, go to the bed to play games on her phone, get back up a few hours later and yell at me and/or the kids for stuff not being done. There are also many days she'll come home, go right to the office, work until I tell her it's dinner time, come down to eat, go back up to finish whatever, then pajamas, games in bed, yell about chores, go back to bed...don't get me wrong, she also cleans the house top to bottom about twice a year.

I'm what you would call an idiot. We lived together for a while (1 yearish?) and never really talked about marriage, but the time together was great, we got along, sex was awesome! and frequent! and not always normal! and one day on the way home from work I had this discussion with myself about the reasons to and not to marry her, came to the conclusion that I wanted to. And then proceeded to tell her about that conversation when I got home which led to me kneeling and asking, which led to her saying no, and asking where the ring was to which I replied I wanted her to be a part of picking that out, so we went out to get the ring right then. So her point, no romance or "hype" involved. Looking back, I have to agree, it was pretty crappy of me to ask that way with no preparation. Problem is now, she won't let me forget. We talked a few years ago about that and I asked what it would take for me to make that up to her. I don't remember the exact response, but basically she said some great show of effort and romance. So, I made a great show of effort and romance with a fantastic getaway weekend, but as evidence shows, that wasn't enough.


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## Horse on Ice

arbitrator said:


> *If you're not anywhere near your saturation point, then I really don't know where you are!
> 
> I say that it's high time for implementing "the 180," as it's so damned apparent that, as far as she's concerned, that you've been summarily relegated to "Plan B" status! Also, make an appointment with a good family law attorney to help you assess your property as well as your custodial rights!
> 
> Trust me! This is no equally-yoked marriage that you're a party to! *


When I was on TAM a couple of years back, I read about this magical 180 and began to implement it during our last possible divorce period. It did seem to work. Then life happened, schedules changed, the move, generic excuse, generic excuse, and I obviously fell off the wagon. It will be tonights homework to look that back up and begin it all over again.



Mr.Married said:


> I did get oral to completion a few years back (1st time in a while). I was shocked (mainly because we were currently talking divorce at that time) so I asked her why
> 
> 
> 
> Did you notice how some things change when the threat starts becoming real and your starting to stand up for yourself? Sometimes it takes the possibility of loss
> to shake things up. The more you stand up for yourself...the more things will change. The saying around here is you have to be willing to lose it all to get it back.
> Does that make sense to you..it should. Think about it for a bit.
> 
> As arbitrator says...I think you should be at your saturation point. Look up "The 180." Make yourself and your needs the new priority.
> 
> 
> Keep up with school !!!!!


Mr.Married, you have an amazingly succinct way to state things. I really appreciate that. The 180 shall be my homework for tonight for immediate implementation.



dadstartingover said:


> This is what it feels like to be the Plan B Provider Guy. You don't want to be Plan B Provider Guy. Ever. What you're experiencing from her is very real disdain.
> 
> Get out. Today. This is only going to get worse.


DSO, it sucks, I don't like it and I want off this carousal. I believe that you are correct, there is disdain, and no respect. Worse? It seems really bad already especially since it has been going on for YEARS.


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## Keke24

@Horse on Ice, thanks for addressing all these questions. I asked because the behaviors you describe sounded very familiar. However you're clearly ahead of me here, as you've indicated that you believe she displays traits of BPD.

So how do you plan to address your situation? If your wife is a full-blown BPDer, nothing short of a serious treatment plan will help her improve her behavior. And that's only if she decides to put her therapy into practice...


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## Steve2.0

Disclaimer, i didn't read your whole post but got the summary pretty quickly..
You do alot, yet no one respects you... unfortunately you arent leading the family or being the man of the house in your wifes eyes.

I would recommend reading a book called "no more mr. nice guy" and "hold on to your nuts" - both books will give you ideas into what you need in your life to start taking control. You wife and family will most likely follow your lead... and if not, you will still be a better person after it to divorce and come out the other side with better options.

You shouldnt be walking on egg shells and you should be able to call her out on her ****. If you "read the book" and dont know how to implement it.. then read it again and again. Your missing a step or choosing to cherry pick things you want to do vs. don't want to do. You need to do it ALL


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## Horse on Ice

Now that the answer and response question portion is over, a little more information about my life. 

Married almost 20 years, together almost 22.
DD17, DS14
Back in college 3/4 time now, still have at least 3 semesters at that rate
Work full time
Joined TAM in '15, lurked for a couple of years prior
Read NMMNG, Stop Walking on Eggshells & the "180"
Began those processes back in 2016/2017 during our last possible divorce

I am a "Nice Guy". Trying to correct that, but falling back into old, bad habits more often than I should.

I also realize that I played a part in every issue that we have had in our marriage. Ranges from my fault to my enabling to my codependency to not my fault. I also accept that my communication skills towards her are severely lacking in the "healthy" department. I have difficulty expressing my feelings, wants and desires. Those things tend to get bottled up. Of course, it may have something to do with the fact that almost every time I try to discuss my feelings with her regarding things she does that I don't like, my feelings get belittled, and I'm told that "you shouldn't feel that way, it's ridiculous"

I also have to say that our confrontational communication styles are polar opposites. I want to discuss the issue and what it may take to resolve it, all while keeping emotion out of the conversation. She wants to curse, call me names, bring up whatever bad history and faults I may have. Up until our last possible divorce episode, I would either acquiesce to keep the peace or get angry and start arguing back about every point she brought up, getting us farther and farther from the real issue. Either way, issues were never really resolved.

The argument described in my original post is just the latest. Over the decades there have been screaming at me to get out of the house and throwing my clothes out on the lawn, dumping my clothes in the bathtub and soaking them, name calling (in front of the kids no less - her excuse? "I think the kids should know when you're acting like an a--hole") threatening to slash the lawn mower tires because I was mowing too late at night, threatening to slap me because I was mowing too late at night (different occasion), slashing a hole in the pool because I didn't clean it up soon enough after she asked me to, pushing the TV over onto the floor (yep, in front of the kids) because I wasn't responding to her when she was yelling and ranting about something, to pulling over half of the money out of our joint account when I was visiting my parents with the kids without telling me, then when I asked her about it, said she put it back, then finding out that when she said she had put it back, she had, but then had turned around and taken only half out again without telling me! 

(As an interesting side note, the two times she screamed at me to get out, I did in an effort to let her calm down. Now her history is, that I left her and the kids and just walked out without trying to work things out. Somehow the fact that she was screaming at me to leave has completely left her memory. Except for one discussion we had when she brought that back up and I told her that she told me to leave so she could calm down and her reply was "You shouldn't have left, what husband leaves his wife with two small children?")

She wanted a dog, I did not and told her so. She said she wanted one anyway, I told her that I did not want another dog because the last two she got she did not take care of and expected me and the kids to take care of them and I was NOT going to take care of this one if she got it. She got it. Whose taking care of the dog the vast majority of the time? Not her, just like I predicted. And to top that, she gets mad at the kids if they do not do something to take care of the dog and SHE has to do it!

There's more, there always is...


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## Keke24

Horse on Ice said:


> The argument described in my original post is just the latest. Over the decades there have been screaming at me to get out of the house and throwing my clothes out on the lawn, dumping my clothes in the bathtub and soaking them, name calling (in front of the kids no less - her excuse? "I think the kids should know when you're acting like an a--hole") threatening to slash the lawn mower tires because I was mowing too late at night, threatening to slap me because I was mowing too late at night (different occasion), slashing a hole in the pool because I didn't clean it up soon enough after she asked me to, pushing the TV over onto the floor (yep, in front of the kids) because I wasn't responding to her when she was yelling and ranting about something, to pulling over half of the money out of our joint account when I was visiting my parents with the kids without telling me, then when I asked her about it, said she put it back, then finding out that when she said she had put it back, she had, but then had turned around and taken only half out again without telling me!
> 
> (As an interesting side note, the two times she screamed at me to get out, I did in an effort to let her calm down. Now her history is, that I left her and the kids and just walked out without trying to work things out. Somehow the fact that she was screaming at me to leave has completely left her memory. Except for one discussion we had when she brought that back up and I told her that she told me to leave so she could calm down and her reply was "You shouldn't have left, what husband leaves his wife with two small children?")
> 
> She wanted a dog, I did not and told her so. She said she wanted one anyway, I told her that I did not want another dog because the last two she got she did not take care of and expected me and the kids to take care of them and I was NOT going to take care of this one if she got it. She got it. Whose taking care of the dog the vast majority of the time? Not her, just like I predicted. And to top that, she gets mad at the kids if they do not do something to take care of the dog and SHE has to do it!
> 
> There's more, there always is...


OP you do realize that your failure to protect your children from your wife's abusive behavior is in itself abuse, right? 

Are you not considering the impact of her behavior/your relationship on the children? Let me guess, you're staying for them? Yep I heard that from my mom too, smh str8 bs. Your needs should not take precedence over your children's emotional needs.


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## Horse on Ice

Keke24,

Right now, I have no plans. I started plans a couple of years back when we were discussing divorce and I was working the 180, but she begged me to stay until the kids got out of school, she would go to counseling, generic excuse, generic excuse...

To my knowledge, she has not been diagnosed with anything psychological except for OCD and depression, and those of course are what she told me and why she was taking medication. No, she is no longer taking medication for either of those things. She thinks she is "cured" enough? I don't know that she exhibits a high enough amount or frequency of those traits to be diagnosed with BPD, I just know that after reading a number of posts by @Uptown, that quite a few of the behaviors that he lists are VERY familiar and that lasting treatment for that is virtually non-existent.

I do know that I have reached the point of no longer having any great cares about my future. By that I mean that I have put off and excessively analyzed divorce, but never followed through most likely due to fear of the unknown and financial stability. Now?, I don't care if I have to work til I drop and drive a piece of crap, I just want out. I want to have to never deal with someone who has the nerve to tell me I don't do anything romantic or special for HER the evening of the morning I just made her breakfast. Her, not me, not the kids, just her. And this was after months of me making her breakfast most workdays.


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## Horse on Ice

So @arbitrator and @Mr.Married both used the term "saturation point". Can someone kindly explain that to me please?


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## Horse on Ice

@Steve2.0, you're right. I read those books (need to get hold onto your nuts) but that was a few years ago. I did notice that things seemed to get better (kind of?) when I was putting the books recommendations into practice, but since I have not read them in a while and with the changes in my life over the past year or so, I've slipped back to my old, bad habits.
@Keke24, I have not once thought about how my enabling of her abuse was in itself abuse. I was staying for the kids, I have always felt that a home with both parents and no violence was better than 1/2 the parents. My views are beginning to change.


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## Bananapeel

Some people thrive on drama and others thrive on being drama free. Which are you? If it is really this stressful for you and you aren't just venting all you need to decide is whether you want to live this way for the rest of your life or not. If you choose to not live this way then ask yourself if you want to wait until she has the gumption to end things on her terms, or do you want to take the action yourself and divorce her on your terms? It's empowering to be the one to end it, especially if you are a "nice guy" and used to her leading everything in your relationship. 

I'm going to tell you that if there is a lack of mutual respect in a relationship you are going to have a hard time finding it a satisfying way to live long term. You also cannot force her to respect you, especially if you don't respect yourself enough that you tolerate her treating you badly.


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## Keke24

Horse on Ice said:


> @Steve2.0, you're right. I read those books (need to get hold onto your nuts) but that was a few years ago. I did notice that things seemed to get better (kind of?) when I was putting the books recommendations into practice, but since I have not read them in a while and with the changes in my life over the past year or so, I've slipped back to my old, bad habits.
> 
> @Keke24, I have not once thought about how my enabling of her abuse was in itself abuse. I was staying for the kids, I have always felt that a home with both parents and no violence was better than 1/2 the parents. My views are beginning to change.


OP if you feel so fed up with your wife's behavior, imagine how your children feel. They don't have the emotional coping skills you as an adult have had the opportunity to hone, they can't take any action to resolve the situation, they can't refuse to put up with her behavior, they don't have friends/internet strangers they can reach out to to get practical advice on how to address the abuse...

I used to feel my mom was such a helpless victim who was powerless to fix our situation. Today, I have no interest in a relationship with her. I will likely have to deal with this BPD for the rest of my life because my mother made the decision to put my/my sibling's emotional needs on a back burner. Every single day she saw the abuse we were exposed to, she saw us cringe at the abuse lashed out against her, and at the end of every single day she decided nope, it's not that bad, they'll be fine. Well, not one of the 6 of us are fine. We all lack coping skills, we all lack conflict resolution skills, we all have anger issues, 5/6 of us have ended up in ****ed up relationships. Only now, through therapy, do I recognize that this is obviously a direct result of being exposed to parents who clearly lacked all of the critical skills above. 

While you decide how to move forward, I implore you to have some serious conversations with your children about how this situation is affecting them. The worst part about growing up in a home with an abusive parent, is not being able to talk about it. Being exposed to the arguments/shouting, and then having to wake up the next day and pretend like nothing happened and everything's great is crazy-making for a child.


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## Keke24

Horse on Ice said:


> So @arbitrator and @Mr.Married both used the term "saturation point". Can someone kindly explain that to me please?


The point at which you're no longer willing to accept your situation as is.


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## Horse on Ice

I didn't want to threadjack, so I brought it over here.
@Lila said in another thread "When someone has a medical problem that interferes with intimacy, knows the lack of intimacy is a problem for their partner, and has access to medical treatment but won't pursue it, then the only answer is they do not value their partner enough to want to be intimate. Meeting their partner's sexual needs is not a priority. Period.

OP can spend time delving into the reasons why he is choosing to deprioritize her needs but at the end of the day, his actions say he does not value her enough to work on achieving an intimate relationship."

Reverse the "his" and "hers" and that's me...

Here I sit, knowing that I could have, should have completed this process when I started it over 2 years ago. I could be finished by now. I could have moved on by now.

Being raised in a Christian home really brings the guilt piling on whenever I think about divorce. Being raised to "treat your wife like a queen" and just say "yes dear" while gritting your teeth to not get angry and stuffing your feelings because you're a man creates quite a dysfunctional dynamic when coupled with a woman like my wife.
@Keke24, thanks for your responses. The way you describe how the children are affected will give me greater motivation to follow through than anything else I've read so far. And I think I just made my decision to follow through.


----------



## Keke24

Horse on Ice said:


> I didn't want to threadjack, so I brought it over here.
> 
> @Lila said in another thread "When someone has a medical problem that interferes with intimacy, knows the lack of intimacy is a problem for their partner, and has access to medical treatment but won't pursue it, then the only answer is they do not value their partner enough to want to be intimate. Meeting their partner's sexual needs is not a priority. Period.
> 
> OP can spend time delving into the reasons why he is choosing to deprioritize her needs but at the end of the day, his actions say he does not value her enough to work on achieving an intimate relationship."
> 
> Reverse the "his" and "hers" and that's me...
> 
> Here I sit, knowing that I could have, should have completed this process when I started it over 2 years ago. I could be finished by now. I could have moved on by now.
> 
> Being raised in a Christian home really brings the guilt piling on whenever I think about divorce. Being raised to "treat your wife like a queen" and just say "yes dear" while gritting your teeth to not get angry and stuffing your feelings because you're a man creates quite a dysfunctional dynamic when coupled with a woman like my wife.
> 
> @Keke24, thanks for your responses. The way you describe how the children are affected will give me greater motivation to follow through than anything else I've read so far. And I think I just made my decision to follow through.


OP I'm glad you found it helpful. 

It's interesting that you point out how your Christian upbringing contributed to your current situation. Decades later and it has continued to impact your choices and your behavior. See how a childhood environment with a dysfunctional approach to relationships has impacted your entire life? Now substitute your children in there. 

Your wife's situation, no different. She was raised in a dysfunctional home and today she's contributing to a dysfunctional environment for her children. That is all she knows, that is her normal.

This is exactly how cycles of abuse persist for generations and as they're allowed to continue, the number of people impacted is magnified. Someone needs to make the decision to break the cycle.


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## Mr.Married

Horse on Ice: I'm not bringing out the big hammer and neither is anyone else right now. The reason for that is you are processing all this information in a logical carry forward method.
Continue to process what you read but MOST important is to get to the point where you take action. 

Reconciliation: I think your situation is way beyond this now. I don't think you should consider it.

Divorce: Maybe for the consideration of your own children and your own well being you can start to seriously consider it. Since your a "nice guy" you will need to get past your hang-ups of
trying to please others and come to the understanding that you yourself taking back control of everything is what needs to happen. It isn't too late for you or your children to 
experience a life of love and acceptance .... but it is up to you to make it happen. Think...Plan...Gather your courage...and move forward.

I can almost taste your pain .... you and your children don't have to live like this.


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## chillymorn69

I would get my ducks in a row.

See a lawyer and a indavidual counselor. 

Then decide if I should divorce.

Good luck.


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## Horse on Ice

so, I have a question about the 180. It was created to deal with the issue of infidelity, which is not an issue in my marriage. So, why am I implementing it? And if I should be performing the 180, are there points that should be changed some to fit my situation better?

Also, I've been searching through the threads over the past few days trying to glean some insight from the various posts, but none seem to fit what I am going though now. Has anyone out there either been in a similar situation or seen a thread with a similar situation? I would like some other "points of view" on this as well as some ideas on moving forward. Not necessarily regarding separation and divorce, but just handling the interactions throughout the days and weeks ahead.

And, should I post those interactions? or are they not needed?


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## BluesPower

Horse on Ice said:


> so, I have a question about the 180. It was created to deal with the issue of infidelity, which is not an issue in my marriage. So, why am I implementing it? And if I should be performing the 180, are there points that should be changed some to fit my situation better?
> 
> Also, I've been searching through the threads over the past few days trying to glean some insight from the various posts, but none seem to fit what I am going though now. Has anyone out there either been in a similar situation or seen a thread with a similar situation? I would like some other "points of view" on this as well as some ideas on moving forward. Not necessarily regarding separation and divorce, but just handling the interactions throughout the days and weeks ahead.
> 
> And, should I post those interactions? or are they not needed?


No, the 180, is a method that allows you to detach from the other person. It is to help you heal. 

Now, sometimes, it has the effect of waking the other person up from what ever the issue is, a making them focus on the fact that their spouse is detaching. 

That does not always happen, and that is not the reason for the 180.


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## Keke24

Horse on Ice said:


> so, I have a question about the 180. It was created to deal with the issue of infidelity, which is not an issue in my marriage. So, why am I implementing it? And if I should be performing the 180, are there points that should be changed some to fit my situation better?
> 
> Also, I've been searching through the threads over the past few days trying to glean some insight from the various posts, but none seem to fit what I am going though now. Has anyone out there either been in a similar situation or seen a thread with a similar situation? I would like some other "points of view" on this as well as some ideas on moving forward. Not necessarily regarding separation and divorce, but just handling the interactions throughout the days and weeks ahead.
> 
> *And, should I post those interactions? or are they not needed?*


OP this is your thread. Please feel free to post as you see fit.

I forgot to add in my last post that your inability to recognize your wife's behavior as displaying most of the symptoms, should not negate serious consideration of her ranking high on the BPD spectrum. I spent over a year on here/online reading and assessing the symptoms/traits because I was convinced my father was a candidate, before even considering that what I was looking at described me to a T. It was scary! My partner looks at the list and can't align my behavior, the siblings I've told are dumbfounded. Months later and I am still slowly recognizing more and more of my past behaviors that fit the symptoms. 

I'd suggest you approach interactions with her as is advised to victims of abuse - do not engage. If you do have a verbal interaction, you make it clear that you will not tolerate cussing, shouting, name calling etc. And you clarify that you will end the conversation and do xyz (e.g. leave the room, the house etc) if it happens. And that when she is calm and ready to talk, she can apologize and let you know she is ready to continue the discussion. My partner implemented this and it got me to stfu and avoid going into blind rage mode. Of course it pissed me off and made me even more angry at first but there's something about being forced to endure the consequences for one's actions that is so much more effective than simple verbal reasoning.

It makes you feel really stupid and childish when you keep trying to argue with someone who remains calm and walks away.


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## Horse on Ice

For ****'s sake! I really can't stand talking to her. Every time, there is some accusation of how I treat or talk to her and yet she cannot remember that she just did exactly what she is accusing me of less than an hour ago!

And to make matters worse for me, after this latest argument, the topics get changed so much I can't remember what it was we were even talking about!

Are mutually respectful conversations involving members of the opposite sex that do not end up in an argument a reality? And what store are those found in? Or are they just an online purchase?


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## Horse on Ice

Thanks for letting me vent, now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
@Keke24, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. You have offered some sage advice and insight and I really appreciate it.

Last time we were in our possible divorce episode, I tried the whole "make it clear that you will not tolerate cussing, shouting, name calling etc. And you clarify that you will end the conversation and do xyz (e.g. leave the room, the house etc) if it happens. And that when she is calm and ready to talk, she can apologize and let you know she is ready to continue the discussion"

I got followed around the house, and if I left? Oh, now I'm a walk-away father, leaving my kids to go do who knows what! 

Also, when I am not around and we are fighting, she has absolutely no problem telling the kids exactly what she thinks of me, exaggerated or not, foul language or not, lies or not..., I felt like I needed to be around to answer the kids questions if they asked, or to try to be a buffer.


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## Keke24

Horse on Ice said:


> Thanks for letting me vent, now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
> 
> @Keke24, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. You have offered some sage advice and insight and I really appreciate it.
> 
> Last time we were in our possible divorce episode, I tried the whole "make it clear that you will not tolerate cussing, shouting, name calling etc. And you clarify that you will end the conversation and do xyz (e.g. leave the room, the house etc) if it happens. And that when she is calm and ready to talk, she can apologize and let you know she is ready to continue the discussion"
> 
> I got followed around the house, and if I left? Oh, now I'm a walk-away father, leaving my kids to go do who knows what!
> 
> Also, when I am not around and we are fighting, she has absolutely no problem telling the kids exactly what she thinks of me, exaggerated or not, foul language or not, lies or not..., I felt like I needed to be around to answer the kids questions if they asked, or to try to be a buffer.


Geez the more you share the worse the situation sounds! 

How many times did you try the walking away? I would persist until she gets the point that regardless of how she responds, you will not tolerate the abuse. I can't imagine that she would continue to respond the same way knowing it will still not have the impact she is hoping to achieve.

Does it really help if you're there as a buffer? Seems like anything you tried to say would be twisted and worsen the things that would be said to the children. Do you get opportunities to be alone with the children? Can you explain to them that you leaving is not in any way you attempting to abandon them/their mom? That this is strictly to minimize the fighting and the amount of arguing they are being exposed to? They need to understand that this is a healthy approach to verbal abuse.

@EleGirl also gives great advice for dealing with an abusive spouse.

Edited to Add: if you haven't started recording your conversations, you need to start doing so ASAP!


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## EleGirl

@Horse on Ice

Can you tell us what you do for yourself? Do you work out? Do you have friends who you do things with?

And what do you do with your children? Do you go out with them and do things that build your relationship with them?


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## EleGirl

Horse on Ice said:


> Last time we were in our possible divorce episode, I tried the whole "make it clear that you will not tolerate cussing, shouting, name calling etc. And you clarify that you will end the conversation and do xyz (e.g. leave the room, the house etc) if it happens. And that when she is calm and ready to talk, she can apologize and let you know she is ready to continue the discussion"
> 
> I got followed around the house, and if I left? Oh, now I'm a walk-away father, leaving my kids to go do who knows what!
> 
> Also, when I am not around and we are fighting, she has absolutely no problem telling the kids exactly what she thinks of me, exaggerated or not, foul language or not, lies or not..., I felt like I needed to be around to answer the kids questions if they asked, or to try to be a buffer.


Get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and keep it on you at all times so that it captures her rantings. Do not tell her that you have the recording. (What state do you live in? I'll check the recording laws in your state if you will share this.)

If she follows you around, go to a room in the house and lock the door, locking her out. If she yells, bangs on the door, etc., call the police. Banging on a locked door is considered a form of domestic violence. Let her yell and bang on the door until the police get there. It will all be recorded by the 911 operator. Let them teach her that following your around, banging on doors, yelling, etc is not acceptable.

When my husband was acting the way your wife does, I would take my son to a room with me or out for a drive. I would never leave him with his ranting father. It was my job to protect him from that sort of behavior.

Get some recordings of your wife acting badly, just make sure that you do not engage in the same ugly nonsense. Make sure that you copy to recordings to some place safe. And play them for her. She probably had no idea how ugly she sounds. You can tell her that if she does not stop your angry, ugly behavior you will be letting her friends and family hear how she treats you and your children. You see, most abusers only do their abuse behind closed doors so that only their family knows about it. Exposing their bad behavior to the world is the best way to teach them that they cannot treat you and/or your children that way.


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## As'laDain

EleGirl said:


> Get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and keep it on you at all times so that it captures her rantings. Do not tell her that you have the recording. (What state do you live in? I'll check the recording laws in your state if you will share this.)
> 
> If she follows you around, go to a room in the house and lock the door, locking her out. If she yells, bangs on the door, etc., call the police. Banging on a locked door is considered a form of domestic violence. Let her yell and bang on the door until the police get there. It will all be recorded by the 911 operator. Let them teach her that following your around, banging on doors, yelling, etc is not acceptable.
> 
> When my husband was acting the way your wife does, I would take my son to a room with me or out for a drive. I would never leave him with his ranting father. It was my job to protect him from that sort of behavior.
> 
> Get some recordings of your wife acting badly, just make sure that you do not engage in the same ugly nonsense. Make sure that you copy to recordings to some place safe. And play them for her. She probably had no idea how ugly she sounds. You can tell her that if she does not stop your angry, ugly behavior you will be letting her friends and family hear how she treats you and your children. You see, most abusers only do their abuse behind closed doors so that only their family knows about it. Exposing their bad behavior to the world is the best way to teach them that they cannot treat you and/or your children that way.


 @Horse on Ice, my wife used to do pretty much everything you mention so far. for about the first year, i responded very much the same way you have typically responded to your wife. @EleGirl gave you some pretty good advice about keeping a VAR on you. it is probably your best bet when it comes to protecting yourself in the case your wife decides to push any false allegations on you.

now, that said, my marriage is nothing like it used to be. my wife does not treat me like that anymore. today, she is a dream come true to me and i WANT to do anything i can to see her smile. however, the things i did to get us here are difficult for most people to carry out. just the first step alone is too much for people, because it is essentially emotional blackmail. my goal, when i did it, was to get my wife to the point where she was willing to work with me in order to build an intimate and loving relationship. you would have to be able to disconnect your emotions from the process, or just simply act like you are disconnected, in order to stomach seeing the shock and pain she will go through as she gets used to the fact that she has no power over you and her bad behavior will bring consequences that she wont like. 

if you think you can do that while still being able to get excited about seeing her show pride in who she is becoming, then you may be able to turn your marriage around for the better and influence your wife to face her own demons. i will warn you now though, most people do not have the stomach for this. i dont say that as a slight against them, i say it because i know that i do not emotionally respond to things the way most people do. i know that most people find that kind of stuff very difficult. in fact, most people believe it to be impossible. 

the fact that the 180 started to work for you two years ago tells me that you likely CAN turn your marriage around, but you will have to change the way you view things... most people arent willing to change what they do and stick to those changes unless they have already reached that "saturation point". by that point, they have nothing left to lose. the problem at that point becomes one of motivation. by the time they willing to do something that goes against their nature, they have lost the motivation to do so. like you said, they just want out, so why bother with all the trouble? 

anyway, if you want to try going through the trouble, let me know and i will tell you more about what i did. im also paging @Akinaura. she is my wife and can give insight into the things that got her attention, pulled her up short, and the things that i did that allowed her to believe that it was worth continuing, etc. i spent a lot of time trying to separate her actions from her self worth. i wanted her to know that i loved her, but i was going to address her behavior. letting her know that i loved her despite her previous bad behavior was the most difficult part of it, so her input would be very valuable. make no mistake, it was hard on her too. if i did not do my best to make the whole process worth it to her, she probably would have lost all hope for the marriage and would have either left or decided that the work just wasn't worth it to her to try and change. 

anyway, let us know what you decide you want to do. divorce would be much easier to do, so keep that in mind.


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## Horse on Ice

EleGirl said:


> @Horse on Ice
> 
> Can you tell us what you do for yourself? Do you work out? Do you have friends who you do things with?
> 
> And what do you do with your children? Do you go out with them and do things that build your relationship with them?


For myself? Fairly close to nothing. The only thing I can really point to is the fact that I'm back in college to finish my degree. I don't work out, I haven't made the time because I feel like I really don't have it.

I do have friends, but they are all in another state although I do try to get away for at least one weekend a year to see them. Over our marriage, my wife has discouraged "friends" time, always having some excuse.

My son and I are in a program together, so we get pretty good time together with that, but my daughter and I don't have any set thing like that, so I try to come up with stuff that she'll be interested in, but those things only happen a few times a year. (On that note, any good ideas on father/teen daughter bonding activities?) We are in a small town/rural area, so "big city" stuff is a bit more challenging.

And, OMG @EleGirl POSTED ON MY THREAD!


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## Akinaura

Here because I was paged. I'll be back to read the thread, but from what I've read from my husband's post, get the VAR because you can't dispute evidence. 

For me, knowing my behavior was being judged and not me as a person really helped a lot. I will have more to say later, I'm posting quickly on a break from work.


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## Horse on Ice

So, I had gotten a VAR a few years back when going through what seems like the exact same situation. Also got a recording app for my phone used both until she noticed. After the snide and denigrating remarks, still didn't change how she talked to me. I'll put that back into use though.
@As'laDain, I'm interested in the process, but not sure I'm in a place to follow through. 

I look at my wife now and have lost all attraction. As in, not just sexually, not just romantically, but wouldn't want to even be her friend. An example; I was reading through a thread that @EleGirl started a couple of years ago regarding wives in a sexless marriage. After reading some of what the men posted I realized that there is a real problem with that. My sexless path followed what many men have experienced, frequent rejection by my wife, followed by the attitude of "I'll just let her initiate", followed by her only initiating when it seems like I'm going to say no (late at night/early morning when I have to work and she doesn't, etc.), followed by her then accusing me of rejecting her all the time so "she is no longer going to initiate". 

Of course this takes place over quite a number of years, so infrequently there were some good times. One of those good times that I'll never be able to forget was a Valentine's Day which we were getting along pretty well. I got some things for her that she really likes (not just buy at the store, but planning was involved, racing around town to pick up things at different locations, etc. real effort was put in on my part, not just some trinket) and throughout the evening and over dinner (at the house, with the kids, middle of the week, rural area remember?) we exchanged those touches and innuendos that involved couples exchange when they both know it's going to lead to **something**. That evening, I'm rushing the kids to bed, finishing up some chores, heading to the bedroom, all earlier than normal because, you know, **something**. I mention something to the kids about going to bed now, she inquires (cause it's earlier than normal), I say some suave innuendo again regarding us and **something**, her response? "How long is it going to take? I guess I could stay up a few minutes."

The breath just left my body.

And I know, there was an element of "Nice Guy" syndrome going on with the whole "I'll buy something and get **something**", but keep in mind, she was playing along and RESPONDING the entire evening up until it was time for the actual event. And it was Valentines Day. And no, she wasn't tired from doing chores all evening, because she did none that evening except iron her own clothes for work the next day.

Since that time, every time that memory surfaces, EVERY TIME, my thoughts lead to "what wife would do that to her husband?" Not say no to sex, that's not what upset me. It was the fact that she led me on the entire evening, even responding with her own innuendos and suggestions about what was going to happen, commenting on how romantic it was that I made such an effort on her gifts and that she really enjoyed them, and then minutes before the start of the main event, make it seem like I was an afterthought that she would try to fit into her schedule.

I then think, if someone I considered a friend acted that way towards their own spouse, showed excitement and involvement and then just before the activity treated them like they were an afterthought, a burden?, I would no longer consider that person "friend" material.

Just an example of why I don't think I'm in a place to follow through...


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## EleGirl

Horse on Ice said:


> For myself? Fairly close to nothing. The only thing I can really point to is the fact that I'm back in college to finish my degree. I don't work out, I haven't made the time because I feel like I really don't have it.
> 
> I do have friends, but they are all in another state although I do try to get away for at least one weekend a year to see them. Over our marriage, my wife has discouraged "friends" time, always having some excuse.
> 
> My son and I are in a program together, so we get pretty good time together with that, but my daughter and I don't have any set thing like that, so I try to come up with stuff that she'll be interested in, but those things only happen a few times a year. (On that note, any good ideas on father/teen daughter bonding activities?) We are in a small town/rural area, so "big city" stuff is a bit more challenging.


One of the ways to start feeling stronger about yourself is to start doing things for yourself. Find something, even if it's going for walks a few times a week. Or join a gym and start working out. Physical well being leads to mental well being. If your wife objects, invite her to joint the gym or do something. You could even look on meetup.com and find a group that does something that you enjoy. It could be hiking, biking, etc. 

What are the things that your daughter enjoys? For example would she enjoy biking? If so get both of you bikes and joint a biking group with her. Maybe with your son as well. This is important since you say that your wife bad mouths you to your children. It's important that you build relationships with them away from their mother. they need the break from their mother and need to see you through their own eyes, not their mother's eyes.


----------



## personofinterest

I was brought up in a Christian environment with the undertone that divorce was always sin. I know what a hard decision it is. I stayed because I thought my kids needed it. I know exactly where you are in many ways.

BUT I have learned the hard way that "2 parents together at all costs" is NOT always the right answer. None of my kids ever plan to marry, and one of them was honest enough to tell me point blank they were not about to risk having what they grew up with. Man, that stung and hurt, but they are right. I did them a HUGE disservice by modeling such a crappy picture of marriage. I should have left when I first realized things would never change.

Only you can decide how much you can take and what the fallout will be. But don't let the old diatribe of "never divorce no matter what because you will ruin your kids" keep you stuck in misery. I wish I had a do-over.


----------



## Thor

Horse, I suspect your wife has major traumas in her history. You may or may not be aware of any of them. Her bailing out on therapy after the one-on-one session with the counselor is a huge red flag actually. Everything you've described about her clearly points towards something big.

Now, as a former Nice Guy myself, I'm warning you this is where you are in great danger. Of course you care for her well being, and you hate it when she is hurting. You saw her at one point in life as a great woman, and you'd love for that old her to re-appear. Know in your heart there is nothing you can do to help her. You even led Mrs. Horse to water (with marriage therapy), but she refused to drink.

I, and countless herds of Nice Guys, have tried to understand and fix these situations. When the Nice Guy meets the trauma victim woman, it is truly The Perfect Storm. We want to fix whatever it is that is broken. We just want our girlfriend back. We want her to be happy again. And we want our family to be happy. But you cannot be her therapist, and you have zero ability to inspire her to seek therapy or to seek self improvement.

You must look out for your own emotional well being, which btw directly impacts your physical health and longevity. You must consider your children, which means showing them a strong man who will protect them from their mother and who protects his own interests. They know you love them, and they understand the situation far better than you imagine they do. Don't fear their reaction if you proceed with divorce!

Think of some good model of masculinity. John Wayne perhaps. What would John Wayne do? 



Horse on Ice said:


> I do know that I have reached the point of no longer having any great cares about my future. By that I mean that I have put off and excessively analyzed divorce, but never followed through most likely due to fear of the unknown and financial stability. Now?, I don't care if I have to work til I drop and drive a piece of crap, I just want out. I want to have to never deal with someone who has the nerve to tell me I don't do anything romantic or special for HER the evening of the morning I just made her breakfast. Her, not me, not the kids, just her. And this was after months of me making her breakfast most workdays.


I highly recommend the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M. Smith. It is far more than the title suggests, and it is a treasure for the Nice Guy philosophically.


----------



## Thor

Horse on Ice said:


> so, I have a question about the 180. It was created to deal with the issue of infidelity, which is not an issue in my marriage. So, why am I implementing it? And if I should be performing the 180, are there points that should be changed some to fit my situation better?


Doc Glover promotes a form of 180 in No More Mr Nice Guy. Everything you've been doing for 20 years has gotten the wrong results, so start doing the opposite. Remember that the Nice Guy imagines the opposite is being a Jerk. Not true! It can feel really selfish at first, but what you'll discover is your compass is mis-calibrated.

Essentially you need to re-prioritize your own activities and interests ahead of hers. Go do things just for you. Join a golf league at work that plays after work once per week. And then go to every single match. Or, start going to the gym 3 mornings per week before work, and don't make your W breakfast. She will push back for sure, so you need to assert yourself. Establish boundaries. And, hold her accountable for her bad behavior, as if she's a petulant teen.

She will see you as the independent adult when you do this. She will see you don't need her. That's the 180, where you are no longer the family's mule for her to flog. Yes be kind to her, and make time to do things together. Take care of legitimate family business.

Stop being a caretaker. Insist people ask you before you do something. The example for me was bicycles. I made sure the kids' bikes always ran perfectly and were clean. The kids would say something like "the gears made a funny sound today" or "the tire looks soft", and I'd go take care of it. I would periodically check out their bikes to make sure everything seemed in good order. The turnaround was to tell them they needed to ask for me to look at or fix their bike, and it was a favor to them they were requesting. I also used it as an opportunity to show them how to do these repairs and adjustments themselves.

I'm sure you do this kind of thing all the time and are not aware of it. You make a meal without being asked. You pick up toys or laundry the kids left strewn about. Just stop doing those things unless asked, and then consider if it is something you really want to do. 

The NMMNG 180 is a different form of detachment. It is becoming independent but not necessarily distant. The common phrase is "disconnect the emotional hose". It is about your view and attitudes changing. It may or may not affect your W's view or attitudes. The TAM or infidelity 180 is about disconnecting what had been a normal connection you had, and to shock the cheater into hopefully a new view and attitude about you and the marriage.


----------



## Thor

Horse on Ice said:


> For ****'s sake! I really can't stand talking to her. Every time, there is some accusation of how I treat or talk to her and yet she cannot remember that she just did exactly what she is accusing me of less than an hour ago!
> 
> And to make matters worse for me, after this latest argument, the topics get changed so much I can't remember what it was we were even talking about!
> 
> Are mutually respectful conversations involving members of the opposite sex that do not end up in an argument a reality? And what store are those found in? Or are they just an online purchase?


Boy do I remember those kinds of conversations. Many times my head would be spinning and I would miss what came next. Gas lighting is probably a big part of what is going on with your W, btw. She switches topics and she contradicts what she said or did recently. It leaves you wondering if you're going crazy, or if you're losing your memory. Did she just say that, or did I misunderstand it? Did that thing really happen (or not happen) despite my clear memory of it?

You may want to consider a Voice Activated Recorder (or use an app on your cell phone perhaps) to review what really happened. 

I actually started keeping a password protected journal for a while. When I looked back it was pretty shocking at what I put up with her saying and doing. It also validated my memory of past events when she'd rewrite things.

The solution for me was the divorce.

Another book I'd recommend to you is "Spy the Lie". I bet you're getting a lot of deception from her, as well as manipulative tactics. Though you're not currently trying to see if she is lying about something like an affair, she is likely using a lot of the tactics you'll see in the book. Whenever you have a challenging conversation with her, she verbally plays games to get you off track and off balance.


----------



## As'laDain

Horse on Ice said:


> So, I had gotten a VAR a few years back when going through what seems like the exact same situation. Also got a recording app for my phone used both until she noticed. After the snide and denigrating remarks, still didn't change how she talked to me. I'll put that back into use though.
> 
> @As'laDain, I'm interested in the process, but not sure I'm in a place to follow through.
> 
> I look at my wife now and have lost all attraction. As in, not just sexually, not just romantically, but wouldn't want to even be her friend. An example; I was reading through a thread that @EleGirl started a couple of years ago regarding wives in a sexless marriage. After reading some of what the men posted I realized that there is a real problem with that. My sexless path followed what many men have experienced, frequent rejection by my wife, followed by the attitude of "I'll just let her initiate", followed by her only initiating when it seems like I'm going to say no (late at night/early morning when I have to work and she doesn't, etc.), followed by her then accusing me of rejecting her all the time so "she is no longer going to initiate".
> 
> Of course this takes place over quite a number of years, so infrequently there were some good times. One of those good times that I'll never be able to forget was a Valentine's Day which we were getting along pretty well. I got some things for her that she really likes (not just buy at the store, but planning was involved, racing around town to pick up things at different locations, etc. real effort was put in on my part, not just some trinket) and throughout the evening and over dinner (at the house, with the kids, middle of the week, rural area remember?) we exchanged those touches and innuendos that involved couples exchange when they both know it's going to lead to **something**. That evening, I'm rushing the kids to bed, finishing up some chores, heading to the bedroom, all earlier than normal because, you know, **something**. I mention something to the kids about going to bed now, she inquires (cause it's earlier than normal), I say some suave innuendo again regarding us and **something**, her response? "How long is it going to take? I guess I could stay up a few minutes."
> 
> The breath just left my body.
> 
> And I know, there was an element of "Nice Guy" syndrome going on with the whole "I'll buy something and get **something**", but keep in mind, she was playing along and RESPONDING the entire evening up until it was time for the actual event. And it was Valentines Day. And no, she wasn't tired from doing chores all evening, because she did none that evening except iron her own clothes for work the next day.
> 
> Since that time, every time that memory surfaces, EVERY TIME, my thoughts lead to "what wife would do that to her husband?" Not say no to sex, that's not what upset me. It was the fact that she led me on the entire evening, even responding with her own innuendos and suggestions about what was going to happen, commenting on how romantic it was that I made such an effort on her gifts and that she really enjoyed them, and then minutes before the start of the main event, make it seem like I was an afterthought that she would try to fit into her schedule.
> 
> I then think, if someone I considered a friend acted that way towards their own spouse, showed excitement and involvement and then just before the activity treated them like they were an afterthought, a burden?, I would no longer consider that person "friend" material.
> 
> Just an example of why I don't think I'm in a place to follow through...


my wife did the same thing early on. she would lead me on, purposefully do things to turn me on, and then tell me she was too tired. @Thor is probably right though, in regards to your wife having suffered some major trauma in her past. my wife did, which was a large part of her behavior. 

but, if you don't think you are in a place to follow through, then just divorce her. it would be easier than trying to change her. i say easier because you cant change her without changing you. for some reason, people are always afraid of changing. as a nearly universal rule, they always want the OTHER person to change first. 

but it doesn't work like that.


----------



## Akinaura

Okay, done with work and have had time to read this thread.

I'm gonna come across bluntly because you've done a great job about being upfront and honest with how you feel and the thought processes you have.

I joked with Asla earlier asking him if he had let you borrow some of the VAR recordings he had made from years back in our marriage. Because your wife sounds and acts like I did back then. But unless you WANT or DESIRE to change yourself a bit first, your wife won't change at all and you might as well just go ahead and get the divorce papers started.

I told you, I was gonna be blunt...but I'm also going to be honest. I have called Asla just about every vile thing you could call a man. I have raised such a ruckus the VAR wasnt for evidence of words, it was to protect himself. I wasnt someone even the devil wanted to be around. Yet Asla chose to change a little, start calling me out based on my behaviors and expressing where his boundaries were. Little by little it went from "Devil Roommate" to "I Dream of Aki".

It all comes down to how much effort YOU are willing to put into things right now. Screw your spouse at the moment, what can YOU control and do right now, what level of effort do YOU want to give?


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Yes, I remember them too @Thor...

@Horse on Ice, the VAR is your friend... it helps you keep the situation straight in your own head and empowers your sanity to know you heard exactly what you heard, the way you heard it, and in the context you heard it not as a weapon, but as a self-check that allows you to make sound and calm decisions and not emotional ones.

Keep it secure and private in all situations, do not share it's existance.

It is always helpful to begin the process of ditching the anger and resentment you own in yourself... you cannot control her's not matter how you try so be true to yourself and begin living the responses you need loving yourself more... 

The big three are:
​
I'm sorry you feel that way.
I see things differently.
I’m not okay with x.

Use these immediately when the downward spiral begins... not in the middle, not when 30 minutes of explaining yourself has turned into an infinite loop... when the emotions start to wind up, step aside like a bullfighter and your "Toro" is "I'm not ok with this" and walk away... let go of it.

If she shouts at you for doing or not doing "XYZ", step aside like a bullfighter and your "Toro" is "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away... let go of it.

Drop the rope... why would you share more words with someone who doesn't value them?

Lao Tzu said "the best fighter is never angry" because then he has the calm to choose well and decide if the fight is truly needed... and if you are angry you always lose because you have already taken a beating. Once you can push the anger and resentment within you aside, your wife is going to look different... maybe not a friend but not an enemy either and in that compassion you will have build a buffer around yourself that the bull of her unhappiness can charge you head on and never touch you.

Time to buffer in some boundaries...


----------



## Horse on Ice

personofinterest said:


> I was brought up in a Christian environment with the undertone that divorce was always sin. I know what a hard decision it is. I stayed because I thought my kids needed it. I know exactly where you are in many ways.
> 
> BUT I have learned the hard way that "2 parents together at all costs" is NOT always the right answer. None of my kids ever plan to marry, and one of them was honest enough to tell me point blank they were not about to risk having what they grew up with. Man, that stung and hurt, but they are right. I did them a HUGE disservice by modeling such a crappy picture of marriage. I should have left when I first realized things would never change.
> 
> Only you can decide how much you can take and what the fallout will be. But don't let the old diatribe of "never divorce no matter what because you will ruin your kids" keep you stuck in misery. I wish I had a do-over.


I have finally gotten to that point I believe, one pervasive thought I have is "why didn't I just leave 2 years ago", but each day is new, no matter how crappy...


----------



## Horse on Ice

Thor said:


> Horse, I suspect your wife has major traumas in her history. You may or may not be aware of any of them. Her bailing out on therapy after the one-on-one session with the counselor is a huge red flag actually. Everything you've described about her clearly points towards something big.
> 
> Oh, definitely big! In a previous post I stated that she had been through emotional, verbal and physical abuse growing up, towards mother, father, and children. After marriage, more stories came out. Her previous marriage was abusive as well, including sexual. Not clear on sexual abuse as a child though.
> 
> I, and countless herds of Nice Guys, have tried to understand and fix these situations. When the Nice Guy meets the trauma victim woman, it is truly The Perfect Storm. We want to fix whatever it is that is broken. We just want our girlfriend back. We want her to be happy again. And we want our family to be happy. But you cannot be her therapist, and you have zero ability to inspire her to seek therapy or to seek self improvement.
> 
> Well, that's me to a T. I did figure out a few years ago after I joined TAM that I could not be her therapist (I did kind of try that in the past with the type of reaction you would expect [shudder]) Not sure how clear I made this previously, but we both did IC for a while, but since I started back to school and with the move we were both unable to continue and have not had a chance to look for anyone new where we are.
> 
> You must look out for your own emotional well being, which btw directly impacts your physical health and longevity. You must consider your children, which means showing them a strong man who will protect them from their mother and who protects his own interests. They know you love them, and they understand the situation far better than you imagine they do. Don't fear their reaction if you proceed with divorce!
> 
> This is exactly the type of feedback I need to keep me motivated. Every time I consider leaving, it's always how it will affect the kids that reels me back in.
> 
> I highly recommend the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M. Smith. It is far more than the title suggests, and it is a treasure for the Nice Guy philosophically.





Thor said:


> Essentially you need to re-prioritize your own activities and interests ahead of hers. Go do things just for you. Join a golf league at work that plays after work once per week. And then go to every single match. Or, start going to the gym 3 mornings per week before work, and don't make your W breakfast. She will push back for sure, so you need to assert yourself. Establish boundaries. And, hold her accountable for her bad behavior, as if she's a petulant teen.
> 
> This is one area I know that I failed in last time we were going through this. I did do stuff for me, it's what got me back into college, but establishing boundaries and holding her accountable I'm sure I failed miserably at because I don't know what the hell I'm doing. So, one big homework assignment for me is going to be to learn more about what boundaries are in the first place, then what are mine. I'm not sure I'm at a place to hold her accountable, because I am still in that place of "F**k it, I'm leaving"
> 
> Stop being a caretaker. Insist people ask you before you do something. I'm sure you do this kind of thing all the time and are not aware of it. You make a meal without being asked. You pick up toys or laundry the kids left strewn about. Just stop doing those things unless asked, and then consider if it is something you really want to do.
> 
> I'm going to have great difficulty with this. I think it may be pretty easy for me to not do stuff for her, but the kids? Or the family as a whole? It's going to be a major shift in my entire world view at this point.





Thor said:


> Boy do I remember those kinds of conversations. Many times my head would be spinning and I would miss what came next. Gas lighting is probably a big part of what is going on with your W, btw. She switches topics and she contradicts what she said or did recently. It leaves you wondering if you're going crazy, or if you're losing your memory. Did she just say that, or did I misunderstand it? Did that thing really happen (or not happen) despite my clear memory of it?
> 
> You may want to consider a Voice Activated Recorder (or use an app on your cell phone perhaps) to review what really happened.
> 
> I actually started keeping a password protected journal for a while. When I looked back it was pretty shocking at what I put up with her saying and doing. It also validated my memory of past events when she'd rewrite things.
> 
> The solution for me was the divorce.
> 
> Another book I'd recommend to you is "Spy the Lie". I bet you're getting a lot of deception from her, as well as manipulative tactics. Though you're not currently trying to see if she is lying about something like an affair, she is likely using a lot of the tactics you'll see in the book. Whenever you have a challenging conversation with her, she verbally plays games to get you off track and off balance.


Yep, you nailed it. It is somewhat comforting to know I'm not the only one. I'll definitely be looking for my VAR. Can't remember where I left it.


----------



## Marc878

Horse,

All you're doing is laying in the victims chair. Poor me won't get you anywhere or anything except what you've been getting.

Like a lot you can't make a *decision* and until you do you'll just continue to wallow in this.

Are you ok with living the rest if your life like this? 

Because it can happen. Life is very short and another 5 or 10 years will pass before you know it.

*The only one keeping you where you are is you.*


----------



## Horse on Ice

OH MY GOD! I'VE GOT THE @As'laDain & @Akinaura TAG TEAM IN MY THREAD! AND THEY'RE ON MY SIDE! 

To both of you, I'm humbled and awed. First, for the patience and wisdom that Asla has shown and second but no less important, for the insight and willingness that Akinaura exhibits.

Okay, I'm calm.

In a perverted sort of way, it's nice to know that there are other couples out there who have been through what I am going through now. And I don't mean in the sense of "oh this is horrible and yours sucks as bad or worse", I mean in the sense of "Wow, they have been EXACTLY where I'm at, and figured out the answers!" But...

At this point I'm in a place where I no longer care if she changes. I won't be able to trust them anyway. There have been changes before, and we are back where we started. Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, the changes I made didn't last either. Changing from a Nice guy to a Good guy is difficult and a constant battle. I let my guard down and fell off the wagon.

I do care however, that I change. If your process involves me becoming a better man and father, I'm in. I just don't have the desire to work on the process that is HER. And as far as screwing her goes, I've lost all desire. I am of an age now that I no longer want a woman who obviously does not want me.


----------



## Horse on Ice

Emerging Buddhist said:


> It is always helpful to begin the process of ditching the anger and resentment you own in yourself... you cannot control her's not matter how you try so be true to yourself and begin living the responses you need loving yourself more...
> 
> The big three are:
> ​
> I'm sorry you feel that way.
> I see things differently.
> I’m not okay with x.
> 
> Use these immediately when the downward spiral begins... not in the middle, not when 30 minutes of explaining yourself has turned into an infinite loop... when the emotions start to wind up, step aside like a bullfighter and your "Toro" is "I'm not ok with this" and walk away... let go of it.
> 
> 
> Time to buffer in some boundaries...


This right here is what I need to start doing. I consistently try to defend myself and my actions/words, and can never keep up in the argument anyway, so it all gets lost and then I forget, and then the frustration and anger boils up and then it's a shouting match and then she looks at me like I'm the one that lost my mind.



Marc878 said:


> Horse,
> 
> All you're doing is laying in the victims chair. Poor me won't get you anywhere or anything except what you've been getting.
> 
> Like a lot you can't make a *decision* and until you do you'll just continue to wallow in this.
> 
> Are you ok with living the rest if your life like this?
> 
> Because it can happen. Life is very short and another 5 or 10 years will pass before you know it.
> 
> *The only one keeping you where you are is you.*


I've read of these mysterious 2x4's but have never seen one let alone feel one. I can no longer say that.

Marc, there is some truth to what you say and perhaps some impatience. Please bear in mind that I just started this process (okay, again), and have not yet had a chance to find let alone speak to a lawyer. I firmly believe that MUST happen before I move out. For now, I'm venting, learning and planning. My decision has been made, but it is not yet time for action.

With all that being said, I DO appreciate your bluntness, it is a necessary shock to the system at times


----------



## Horse on Ice

So, here's something. We share office space in a room, and both had to work in there tonight. After a few minutes of me typing away at emails, etc. she asks "What are you doing?"

Innocuous question right? Then why was my very first thought "How is she going to use my answer against me?", while my heart rate sped up and breathing quickened?

My reply "I'm working" with as much disbelief that she asked me that question dripping from the words as you could fit. Oh, she found something wrong. 

A few minutes later, she asks "Don't you want to know what I'm doing?". My reply "No"

Not sure if you guys know or not, but I'm rude. She said so, it must be true.

I'm guessing right now that I'm not working the 180 correctly.


----------



## Marc878

Horse,

Why you so mean?

That was a gentle 2x2 btw. A reality check


----------



## Marc878

Horse on Ice said:


> So, here's something. We share office space in a room, and both had to work in there tonight. After a few minutes of me typing away at emails, etc. she asks "What are you doing?"
> 
> Innocuous question right? Then why was my very first thought "How is she going to use my answer against me?", while my heart rate sped up and breathing quickened?
> 
> My reply "I'm working" with as much disbelief that she asked me that question dripping from the words as you could fit. Oh, she found something wrong.
> 
> A few minutes later, she asks "Don't you want to know what I'm doing?". My reply "No"
> 
> Not sure if you guys know or not, but I'm rude. She said so, it must be true.
> 
> I'm guessing right now that I'm not working the 180 correctly.


A nice long belch if you could have mustered one would have come in handy at that time.

Plan ahead next time


----------



## As'laDain

Horse on Ice said:


> OH MY GOD! I'VE GOT THE @As'laDain & @Akinaura TAG TEAM IN MY THREAD! AND THEY'RE ON MY SIDE!
> 
> To both of you, I'm humbled and awed. First, for the patience and wisdom that Asla has shown and second but no less important, for the insight and willingness that Akinaura exhibits.
> 
> Okay, I'm calm.
> 
> In a perverted sort of way, it's nice to know that there are other couples out there who have been through what I am going through now. And I don't mean in the sense of "oh this is horrible and yours sucks as bad or worse", I mean in the sense of "Wow, they have been EXACTLY where I'm at, and figured out the answers!" But...
> 
> At this point I'm in a place where I no longer care if she changes. I won't be able to trust them anyway. There have been changes before, and we are back where we started. Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint, the changes I made didn't last either. Changing from a Nice guy to a Good guy is difficult and a constant battle. I let my guard down and fell off the wagon.
> 
> I do care however, that I change. If your process involves me becoming a better man and father, I'm in. I just don't have the desire to work on the process that is HER. And as far as screwing her goes, I've lost all desire. I am of an age now that I no longer want a woman who obviously does not want me.


 @Akinaura and i didn't "fall in love" until we had already been married for about 4 years. but, by the end of the second year, the way she treated me was very different because of the ways i started changing how i responded to her. 

the thing to keep in mind is that i picked how i would respond to her and i just kept at it until it was a habit. until it no longer felt like i was acting. i even went so far as to create a list of responses, things i would do in response to her. if she was following me around the house, screaming at me, i would put headphones in and blast them so loud that i couldn't hear her. if she escalated to physically hitting me or throwing pots, plates, knives, etc, then i would leave for the night. if i were in your shoes, i would probably call the cops for physical abuse. akinaura hasn't been physically abusive in a long time. if she were today like she was back then, a police report would have been in order. 

i would also refuse to engage in any conversation involving personal attacks. i had a specific criteria for conversations that i would and would not engage in. i would listen to her if she complained about something i DID, but i would not listen to her if she complained about anything i thought, intended, or felt. in other words, i wasnt going to sit there and let her accuse me of **** that i had not DONE, period. nobody can read minds, so i wasnt going to entertain the idea that she can read mine. i also made sure that i did not assume her thoughts, intentions, or feelings. thats only fair. 

i made it a point of telling her what i was going to do each time she did something to antagonize me. i practiced it until it was easy for me to do. for instance, i got tired of her taking her wedding ring off and throwing it at me, so i told her one day that if she did it again, i she would not be getting it back. i would destroy it. so the next time she got ticked off and threw it at me, i cut it to pieces. 

for every thing she did that i was not willing to tolerate, i came up with something she would not like. something i could do that would be unpleasant for her. cutting her wedding band to pieces is an example. putting my headphones in and ignoring her until she calmed down when she couldn't be respectful was another. early on, she would not keep the house clean, but would feel guilty when i started cleaning. she would start picking fights because i was "making her feel guilty". in those cases, i would leave the house rather than sit there and subject myself to the craziness that resulted from her guilty conscious. usually, that meant i left a big pile of everything in the middle of a room and then left before i cleaned it up. i might tell her "ill be back in a couple hours. if your done treating me like crap at that point, ill finish cleaning the living room. if not, im heading right back out".

in every case, i would tell her that i am not speaking to her for the rest of the day unless she apologizes for her behavior. " wife, i am not talking to you for the rest of the day unless you apologize for what you just did. maybe tomorrow we can try again." point being, i was not going to go back to acting like everything is just fine between us unless she acknowledged that what she did was wrong. i never asked for an apology for what she thought, felt, or intended, because those were things i could not know. i only required an apology for things she DID. and that includes things she said. 

and you know what? there was not a damned thing she could do to stop me. everything i chose to do was things i could do without her consent or input. there was never a time where i said "you must do XYZ to make up for ABC", it was always "I will not do XYZ until you do ABC". i will not talk to you until you apologize. i will not clean up the mess in the living room until you stop attacking me. i will not pay for internet unless you are willing to get off the computer and spend some time with me when i am home. 

if those are all things you think you can do, then go ahead and start learning them now. its not like i woke up one day and was instantly good at it. it took me a while to figure it out, and make it a permanent change in the way i responded to her. i also made sure to respond to her positive behavior with positive behavior of my own. if she did something nice for me, i would reciprocate in some way. i would not suggest you worry about that right now. the positive stuff, anyway. your wife is more likely to despise you even more for doing something nice for her when she knows she treats you like crap. if she starts being respectful, then you can do stuff for her and she will actually appreciate it. 

if you are seeing the general theme here, you will notice that all of this is stuff you can do with anyone. it does not require anyone else, its just stuff that YOU do. that is what healthy boundaries look like. a weak boundary(if we can even call it that) would be telling a rebellious teenager that they have to do more chores because they aren't being respectful. a strong boundary would be to tell the teenager that you aren't giving them internet access(you don't have to if you don't want to) if they are going to be disrespectful.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Horse on Ice said:


> So, here's something. We share office space in a room, and both had to work in there tonight. After a few minutes of me typing away at emails, etc. she asks "What are you doing?"
> 
> Innocuous question right? Then why was my very first thought "How is she going to use my answer against me?", while my heart rate sped up and breathing quickened?
> 
> My reply "I'm working" with as much disbelief that she asked me that question dripping from the words as you could fit. Oh, she found something wrong.
> 
> A few minutes later, she asks "Don't you want to know what I'm doing?". My reply "No"
> 
> Not sure if you guys know or not, but I'm rude. She said so, it must be true.
> 
> I'm guessing right now that I'm not working the 180 correctly.


If you cannot lead civility your emotions will always be in control of you...

Pretend your children are in the room every time you have a single word with her, which path would you like them to learn, to be condescending or respectful in tense or unpleasant conditions?

You have so much control in this yet it is handed off so easily... be nice.


----------



## Horse on Ice

As'laDain said:


> i would also refuse to engage in any conversation involving personal attacks. i had a specific criteria for conversations that i would and would not engage in. i would listen to her if she complained about something i DID, but i would not listen to her if she complained about anything i thought, intended, or felt. in other words, i wasnt going to sit there and let her accuse me of **** that i had not DONE, period. nobody can read minds, so i wasnt going to entertain the idea that she can read mine. i also made sure that i did not assume her thoughts, intentions, or feelings. thats only fair.
> 
> This right here. It seems to happen frequently, but in a underhanded sneak attack type of way. For instance, just the other day, she was forcefully stating what she believed to be true with regards to why she thought something should happen to her timetable (no matter that of the two of us, I'm quite a bit closer to being the "SME") and just slipped in "... and you think I'm an idiot" fairly nonchalantly. I stopped the argument to correct that, but is that where I should have stated "I'm leaving because you put words in my mouth unless you apologize"? And in cases like that, which have happened before, the apology seems to mean nothing to her, because the behavior does not change and it seems as though she actually does things to antagonize me when she is mad.


----------



## Horse on Ice

Emerging Buddhist said:


> If you cannot lead civility your emotions will always be in control of you...
> 
> Pretend your children are in the room every time you have a single word with her, which path would you like them to learn, to be condescending or respectful in tense or unpleasant conditions?
> 
> You have so much control in this yet it is handed off so easily... be nice.


I recognize more and more that there is this underlying resentment towards her, and I am having difficulty specifying why. There is no one thing she does where I can say "that, that thing right there is why I'm angry with you" It's more of a, I'm afraid to have a conversation with her because I just know that in a week or so, some of what I said, or how I said, will come back up in an argument "proving" that she has a right to be mad. More of a, I can't stand to do any chore around the house while she's there (except cook) because I know, I just know that somehow I did it wrong, or at least, not up to her standards.

I really don't like to answer her questions because they always seem to lead to me being wrong somehow.

This boiling below the surface of the facade tends to break through at times. I DO however, need to learn to control it.


----------



## Horse on Ice

I got an email from her today. I do not know how to process it. On the one hand, she's apologizing and claiming responsibility (I guess?) for her actions, but on the other, I get this (bolded & underlined)...

[I am sorry.

I am sorry that my actions, at times, are anything but loving. I am sorry that I have hurt you. I am sorry that I have demeaned you. I am sorry that I have been disrespectful. 

I am sorry.

My treatment of you is a reflection of me, not of you. I have treated you in a way that was hurtful and disrespectful. For that I am sorry. I allowed myself to be controlled by hurt feelings and emotions. I recognize this, and I am working on loving myself. 

*I forgive you.

I am learning that your treatment of me should not dictate how I treat myself. Your behavior should not determine my worth. Your behavior is a reflection of you, not of me. Yes, you have hurt me. Yes, I reacted. I am sorry for my reaction.

I forgive you.*

Whether you value me or not, I am learning to value myself. Whether I feel that you respect me or not, I am learning to respect myself. Whether you love me or not, I am learning to love myself. 

I love you. 

I am sorry.

Hopefully, we can get to a place of love and understanding... a place of mutual respect.]


And of course, all I can focus on is that part in the middle. WTF do I do with this?


----------



## As'laDain

Horse on Ice said:


> This right here. It seems to happen frequently, but in a underhanded sneak attack type of way. For instance, just the other day, she was forcefully stating what she believed to be true with regards to why she thought something should happen to her timetable (no matter that of the two of us, I'm quite a bit closer to being the "SME") and just slipped in "... and you think I'm an idiot" fairly nonchalantly. I stopped the argument to correct that, but is that where I should have stated "I'm leaving because you put words in my mouth unless you apologize"? And in cases like that, which have happened before, the apology seems to mean nothing to her, because the behavior does not change and it seems as though she actually does things to antagonize me when she is mad.


i would have just shut the conversation down. if you are new to enforcing your boundaries, give a warning. "i am not going to entertain a conversation where you claim to know what i think. do it again and this conversation is over." and then walk away if she does it again. 

i did not typically ask for an apology from @Akinaura for those kinds of things because often, it was what she thought. she had to learn to not assume my thoughts, feelings, or intentions. often, she didnt even know she was doing it. 

a common form of this when we were talking would be "i feel like you think im stupid." she started phrasing like that after i stated that feelings are never wrong, hers are valid no matter what they are. but i would not entertain that form either. No, you dont "feel" my thoughts or feelings. you may think that i think you are an idiot, but that does not make it true, and you don't know what i think unless i tell you.

so yea, i would shut the conversation down unless she is willing to stop assuming my thoughts, but i would not ask for an apology before going back to talking. simply telling her that you will not accept nor internalize her thoughts about YOUR thoughts is typically enough.

and, this from Aki: "if you find that she REALLY wants to argue about what she said, pull the VAR out and replay her words back to her. its not like she can argue with a recording of herself. if she meant something different, she should say something different."


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

apparently someone is reading books and writing down some lines.....


----------



## As'laDain

BarbedFenceRider said:


> apparently someone is reading books and writing down some lines.....


??

who is?


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

yeah...I got cut off. Lost the mojo there! Sorry. 

Sounds like the wife is reading a book and writing the lines down. Just doesn't seem real frankly.


----------



## As'laDain

Horse on Ice said:


> I got an email from her today. I do not know how to process it. On the one hand, she's apologizing and claiming responsibility (I guess?) for her actions, but on the other, I get this (bolded & underlined)...
> 
> [I am sorry.
> 
> I am sorry that my actions, at times, are anything but loving. I am sorry that I have hurt you. I am sorry that I have demeaned you. I am sorry that I have been disrespectful.
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> My treatment of you is a reflection of me, not of you. I have treated you in a way that was hurtful and disrespectful. For that I am sorry. I allowed myself to be controlled by hurt feelings and emotions. I recognize this, and I am working on loving myself.
> 
> *I forgive you.
> 
> I am learning that your treatment of me should not dictate how I treat myself. Your behavior should not determine my worth. Your behavior is a reflection of you, not of me. Yes, you have hurt me. Yes, I reacted. I am sorry for my reaction.
> 
> I forgive you.*
> 
> Whether you value me or not, I am learning to value myself. Whether I feel that you respect me or not, I am learning to respect myself. Whether you love me or not, I am learning to love myself.
> 
> I love you.
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> Hopefully, we can get to a place of love and understanding... a place of mutual respect.]
> 
> 
> And of course, all I can focus on is that part in the middle. WTF do I do with this?


i am video chatting with Akinaura right now. she says that it is a blame shift. it is a smokescreen. she is essentially the same as saying "i am sorry YOU dont love me. i am sorry YOU made me XYZ..."

it is a form of blame shifting, so that she can assume the role of martyr. 

i think she is spot on.


----------



## Akinaura

Horse on Ice said:


> I got an email from her today. I do not know how to process it. On the one hand, she's apologizing and claiming responsibility (I guess?) for her actions, but on the other, I get this (bolded & underlined)...
> 
> [I am sorry.
> 
> I am sorry that my actions, at times, are anything but loving. I am sorry that I have hurt you. I am sorry that I have demeaned you. I am sorry that I have been disrespectful.
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> My treatment of you is a reflection of me, not of you. I have treated you in a way that was hurtful and disrespectful. For that I am sorry. I allowed myself to be controlled by hurt feelings and emotions. I recognize this, and I am working on loving myself.
> 
> *I forgive you.
> 
> I am learning that your treatment of me should not dictate how I treat myself. Your behavior should not determine my worth. Your behavior is a reflection of you, not of me. Yes, you have hurt me. Yes, I reacted. I am sorry for my reaction.
> 
> I forgive you.*
> 
> Whether you value me or not, I am learning to value myself. Whether I feel that you respect me or not, I am learning to respect myself. Whether you love me or not, I am learning to love myself.
> 
> I love you.
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> Hopefully, we can get to a place of love and understanding... a place of mutual respect.]
> 
> 
> And of course, all I can focus on is that part in the middle. WTF do I do with this?



Gah...in leadership circles we call this the sandwich strategy...smash two bits of good stuff with a bit of criticism in the middle.

Regardless, the whole thing reeks of not taking ownership to me. And I've been where she is. My response would be for you to acknowledge that she has made some headway towards acknowledging her bad behavior towards you, but if she cannot accept all of it, then no more progress can be made. I also think that if she is going to continue to hide behind the smokescreen that YOUR behavior, YOUR attitude is the direct cause for everything, she definitely needs to get her butt back to IC. Because in IC you learn straight up that the words "I am (insert emotion) because YOU" doesn't exist at all. It's a fallacy. It's a smokescreen designed so that the person saying it doesn't have to feel guilt or anything other negative emotion for their actions.


----------



## BluesPower

Horse on Ice said:


> I got an email from her today. I do not know how to process it. On the one hand, she's apologizing and claiming responsibility (I guess?) for her actions, but on the other, I get this (bolded & underlined)...
> 
> [I am sorry.
> 
> I am sorry that my actions, at times, are anything but loving. I am sorry that I have hurt you. I am sorry that I have demeaned you. I am sorry that I have been disrespectful.
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> My treatment of you is a reflection of me, not of you. I have treated you in a way that was hurtful and disrespectful. For that I am sorry. I allowed myself to be controlled by hurt feelings and emotions. I recognize this, and I am working on loving myself.
> 
> *I forgive you.
> 
> I am learning that your treatment of me should not dictate how I treat myself. Your behavior should not determine my worth. Your behavior is a reflection of you, not of me. Yes, you have hurt me. Yes, I reacted. I am sorry for my reaction.
> 
> I forgive you.*
> 
> Whether you value me or not, I am learning to value myself. Whether I feel that you respect me or not, I am learning to respect myself. Whether you love me or not, I am learning to love myself.
> 
> I love you.
> 
> I am sorry.
> 
> Hopefully, we can get to a place of love and understanding... a place of mutual respect.]
> 
> 
> And of course, all I can focus on is that part in the middle. WTF do I do with this?


This my friend is, IMHO, is further proof that your wife is BAT S*** Crazy (BSC). Further, to me I am seeing strong narcissistic tendencies which make the case even more that she is BSC.


----------



## Marc878

Translation: I am sorry everything is all your fault.

Got it.

No response required.


----------



## Horse on Ice

And the above 5 or 6 posts are why I love this site. I felt like something with that email wasn't right but couldn't put my finger on it, then...

BAM, 4 different people giving me the same explanation. And it makes sense.

Okay, now for me to figure out the best way to respond. None? Acknowledge and encourage progress? Run screaming for the hills?

I did thank her for sending it, we talked a bit, kinda had to, we needed to figure out the logistics of my daughter's FIRST PROM! Fairly civil, but I did let her know that I couldn't trust it, her personality/character change. Her response? "I know what you mean, I keep waiting for you to tell me you don't love me and you're leaving again, so I can't trust right now either"

Um, how is that the same?


----------



## As'laDain

Horse on Ice said:


> And the above 5 or 6 posts are why I love this site. I felt like something with that email wasn't right but couldn't put my finger on it, then...
> 
> BAM, 4 different people giving me the same explanation. And it makes sense.
> 
> Okay, now for me to figure out the best way to respond. None? Acknowledge and encourage progress? Run screaming for the hills?
> 
> I did thank her for sending it, we talked a bit, kinda had to, we needed to figure out the logistics of my daughter's FIRST PROM! Fairly civil, but I did let her know that I couldn't trust it, her personality/character change. Her response? "I know what you mean, I keep waiting for you to tell me you don't love me and you're leaving again, so I can't trust right now either"
> 
> Um, how is that the same?


i wouldnt address it. if she asks for your thoughts, thank her for her apology and say nothing more. 

as for not trusting her character/personality change, the best way to word it is to simply tell her that you will believe what she does. if what she says lines up with what she does, you will believe her words too.

this is another reason why your words need to line up with your actions as well...


----------



## Marc878

You need to learn this.

You can't win in a verbal exchange with her. 

When you stop trying that you'll regain control over yourself.


----------



## Marc878

Horse on Ice said:


> And the above 5 or 6 posts are why I love this site. I felt like something with that email wasn't right but couldn't put my finger on it, then...
> 
> BAM, 4 different people giving me the same explanation. And it makes sense.
> 
> Okay, now for me to figure out the best way to respond. *None*? Acknowledge and encourage progress? Run screaming for the hills?
> 
> I did thank her for sending it, we talked a bit, kinda had to, we needed to figure out the logistics of my daughter's FIRST PROM! Fairly civil, but I did let her know that I couldn't trust it, her personality/character change. Her response? "I know what you mean, I keep waiting for you to tell me you don't love me and you're leaving again, so I can't trust right now either"
> 
> Um, how is that the same?


The less said the better but you haven't learned that yet.


----------



## Horse on Ice

So, I'm reading books "When I say No, I feel guilty" and "No More Mister Nice Guy". Along with other threads that relate to those topics. 

I am realizing (again) that I need to fix me. And this time to continue it and not let Life derail that, but to make it a part of my Life.

So, I, a Passive-Aggressive, Codependent "Nice Guy" am considering how to best hold myself accountable. And decided to use TAM for that very purpose. Another poster has already begun using TAM this way, and it seems to help (thanks Asla & Akin) and so I'll begin my own journey.

With that being said, I want to have that thread journal MY walk, and this journal the walk of my marriage, I know that they will overlap, but think this will be the best way for me to focus in on the areas that I need to work on and get the specific feedback that will help keep me on task and moving forward.

So, dear readers, thoughts?

That new thread is here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/physical-mental-health-issues/419825-im-p-co-de-ng.html#post19423249


----------



## Horse on Ice

Ohhhhh, so tonight the guilt trip began in earnest.

"Do you love me?"

"Do you want this marriage to end?"

"How can you throw this all away?"

"Just a few weeks ago you looked into my eyes and told me that you loved me"

All this, and more!, because when she asked me the question about us separating my reply was "I have issues, and I need to work on fixing me and I can't do that while I'm with you"

There have been a couple of other conversations in the past few days, but unfortunately, I cannot recall what was said. Mainly her talking and me saying that I need to work on me. 

And, I've looked high and low and CANNOT find my VAR! I'm gonna have to go buy another one. Luckily, the past few conversations have not been adversarial, just some blaming, pointing the finger and shaming tactics.

I REALLY need to start writing down those conversations while I remember them.


----------



## Marc878

Horse on Ice said:


> Ohhhhh, so tonight the guilt trip began in earnest.
> 
> "Do you love me?"
> 
> Did she live you when she was screwing her BF?
> 
> "Do you want this marriage to end?"
> 
> Ah, well it ended with your affair
> 
> "How can you throw this all away?"
> 
> I didn't, you did
> 
> "Just a few weeks ago you looked into my eyes and told me that you loved me"
> 
> Ummm, you looked me in the yeys and made vows so ......
> 
> All this, and more!, because when she asked me the question about us separating my reply was "I have issues, and I need to work on fixing me and I can't do that while I'm with you"
> 
> There have been a couple of other conversations in the past few days, but unfortunately, I cannot recall what was said. Mainly her talking and me saying that I need to work on me.
> 
> And, I've looked high and low and CANNOT find my VAR! I'm gonna have to go buy another one. Luckily, the past few conversations have not been adversarial, just some blaming, pointing the finger and shaming tactics.
> 
> Look honey all I did was have porn star sex with another man behind your back. You should be over this by now.
> 
> I REALLY need to start writing down those conversations while I remember them.


Translation: I deserved the affair. You need to suck it up mister or you'll regret it. 

Go your own way and fix yourself for someone who deserves you.


----------



## Marc878

You need to realize your value. You have much more to offer than she does and you deserve better.

Until you figure that out you'll live under her veil of horse ****.

No response is your best reaction.


----------



## Horse on Ice

@Marc878

There has been no affair. By either of us.

It has really come to a head because I'm beginning to see more and more how I'm screwed up and so is she. And we don't seem to be screwed up together, more like our screw ups irritate and inflame each other. And by screw ups I mean, I'm a NG and she is a verbal and emotional abuser.

I'm still up because she just came to see me. Because she wants to work this out, she wants me to get better and be happy, she can't understand how we've been so happy over the past few months and now I've just pulled the rug out from under her. Yes, she has problems, but I have problems too and she wants to help me fix them. 
I had told her that I couldn't be with her while I'm working through my issues. She just had to come tonight to tell me if that's the case, we need to have a legal separation. 

"Is that what you want?" why do I feel guilty and my heart race?

"No, I don't want to divorce, I want to get better" why am I deflecting? what am i so scared of?

"You said you wanted to be separated, I don't want the rug pulled out from under me again, so it needs to be a legal separation"

"Okay, we'll make it legal." oh my god. i'm gonna throw up...

ETA - I'm scared right now. In my righteous anger, I did want divorce. I did want time apart because I know that while I'm working on me, there will be so many opportunities to fail and backslide, and my belief is that she will be the trigger for those.

Now? I don't think I want divorce. Not that I want to stay in this messed up marriage, but I fear the unknown.


----------



## TJW

Horse on Ice said:


> Now? I don't think I want divorce. Not that I want to stay in this messed up marriage, but I fear the unknown.


I have this advice for you. It is ok to not want a divorce. There can be an array of good reasons why to not divorce. There can also be an array of good reasons to divorce.

One of those good reasons is not fear. Mainly, because remaining in the marriage is also an unknown. Therefore, making a decision with fear in the differential is not rational.

Personally, I don't believe that anything I've read here on this thread is a problem which cannot be solved, and a good marriage could go forward. I agree that your marriage is messed up, but I don't think it is to the point of unsalvageability.

It does require, however, that both of you "own" your own $hit, and that both of you change it. 

Your wife must learn that Dr. Phil is so right..."....you can't change what you don't acknowledge..."

Just now, she neither acknowledges, nor thinks that she has any need to change....it's YOU who needs to change...


----------



## Thor

I didn't want divorce, but I needed it. Sometimes the ideal is not possible. And, sometimes what we fear doesn't turn out bad at all.

https://youtu.be/oqMl5CRoFdk

"No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need"


----------



## Mr.Married

Horse on Ice said:


> my reply was "I have issues, and I need to work on fixing me and I can't do that while I'm with you"
> 
> Mainly her talking and me saying that I need to work on me.
> 
> .


So basically you gave her a complete hall pass on the fact that she has plenty $hit to fix on herself.

I think you need to keep reading the books.


----------



## Horse on Ice

Mr.Married said:


> So basically you gave her a complete hall pass on the fact that she has plenty $hit to fix on herself.
> 
> I think you need to keep reading the books.


You are absolutely correct.

My problem is this; I have brought up issues that I have with her, but I am not a good communicator, so I know that I have NOT done that in a constructive way. In reading the books, I am learning that I need to set boundaries AND THEN ENFORCE THEM. So, not only do I NOT know how to SET boundaries (I still need to learn what mine are), when I make an attempt, I don't enforce them, and on top of all of that, when I do try to enforce them, it is not so much me enforcing them as me blaming her for doing whatever is was. Which "teaches" me that I should just "stuff" what I'm feeling, which builds resentment, which leads to me "giving up" on a particular issue, which enforces my idea that I do NOT know how to set boundaries, and then circling, circling, circles.

Am I explaining this in a way that you guys understand what I am saying?

So, yes. I did give her a hall pass. But the goal for me (at least right now) is for me to learn what my boundaries are, set them, enforce them and then communicate that to her. In that sense, the hall pass is temporary until I "fix" me enough to communicate back to her constructively. At that point, the temporary hall pass is revoked and class is back in session for both of us. Then, I will have an expectation that she will begin/continue working on her and I will be able to enforce my boundaries constructively, even to the point of divorce if that is a necessary consequence.


----------



## Horse on Ice

Horse on Ice said:


> In reading the books, I am learning that I need to set boundaries AND THEN ENFORCE THEM. So, not only do I NOT know how to SET boundaries (I still need to learn what mine are), when I make an attempt, I don't enforce them, and on top of all of that, when I do try to enforce them, it is not so much me enforcing them as me blaming her for doing whatever is was.


And with that being said, and although others have made explanations about boundaries, I am still having difficulty in coming up with fair, enforceable boundaries on my own.

For instance, I have an issue with her anger. Don't get me wrong, it's not the anger itself, I can understand that emotion. It's the rapid onset and display that I have an issue with. There is no attempt at patience and understanding, and quickly escalates into blaming, foul language, name-calling and a historical recount of past mistakes that I cannot fix (or that I haven't fixed well enough, nevermind that she thought the fix was good enough before). Prior to now, my boundary was centered on her anger. I understand now that I can't have a boundary focused on her, so my boundary should now be that I will not tolerate abuse. Okay, how do I enforce that? Walking away doesn't fix anything, it just gives her more ammunition for the next time she talks to me.

Could I get some suggestions of good boundaries and consequences from the audience please?


----------



## anchorwatch

You have too many balls in the air. You're not ready. You're going to drop them. Get proficient at one before you add another. 

If you continue to demand things from her now, you will lose your marriage for sure. At this point, I can't say if that's for the best or not. I tend to believe if you clean up your side of the street it will benefit all your relationships. 

Relationships need work. Work is not possible while separated. 

If you want a marriage too, you will have to also learn how to foster a relationship with your new self and boundaries. 

Learning and integrating yourself once you awaken can take years and is also a lifelong endeavor that never ends. Can your marriage wait that long? 

You're not the first to dive in head first once your eyes see the prize. You'll need to pace yourself. 

Do you have someone IRL to confide in? Do you have a counselor? 

Best


----------



## Thor

Broken Record technique. Just repeat the boundary and walk away again. Don't get into defending yourself verbally or trying to explain to her. Just tell her that you will not remain in a discussion when she becomes angry or abusive. Then walk away.

In a future conversation if she brings up you walking away last time, it depends on how she does it. If she is angry or abusive, Broken Record. "I will not remain in a discussion when you are angry and abusive". Walk away. If she brings it up in a calm way, you could say ONE TIME ONLY that your boundary is not to remain in a conversation when she is angry and abusive, so you left that conversation. If she tries to argue the point, just tell her you are not going to argue about the last argument. 

Realize that she uses these tactics to gain control. She has learned how to manipulate you with her anger and abuse. When you set boundaries she is going to be like a petulant teenager and push the boundaries as hard as she can. You need to disengage emotionally in the conversations so that you don't become reactive. That is one of her power plays, to get you reactive. Another power play of hers is the crazy diversions which leave you stunned wondering what just happened. By disengaging emotionally you can spot these tactics. Remain calm and don't get derailed.

If the conversations start out about something necessary to discuss, keep it on track and keep it as short as possible. If she is initiating conversations in order to berate you, that is a different animal altogether. I would shut those down immediately by telling her you are willing to discuss relationship issues (or money or kids etc) but only when she is able to be calm and respectful. Then walk away.

"When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" helped me tremendously in dealing with my W when I was married and trying to deal with a verbally manipulative W.


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## Horse on Ice

Thor said:


> Broken Record technique. Just repeat the boundary and walk away again. Don't get into defending yourself verbally or trying to explain to her. Just tell her that you will not remain in a discussion when she becomes angry or abusive. Then walk away.
> 
> In a future conversation if she brings up you walking away last time, it depends on how she does it. If she is angry or abusive, Broken Record. "I will not remain in a discussion when you are angry and abusive". Walk away. If she brings it up in a calm way, you could say ONE TIME ONLY that your boundary is not to remain in a conversation when she is angry and abusive, so you left that conversation. If she tries to argue the point, just tell her you are not going to argue about the last argument.
> 
> *Realize that she uses these tactics to gain control. She has learned how to manipulate you with her anger and abuse. When you set boundaries she is going to be like a petulant teenager and push the boundaries as hard as she can. You need to disengage emotionally in the conversations so that you don't become reactive. That is one of her power plays, to get you reactive. Another power play of hers is the crazy diversions which leave you stunned wondering what just happened. By disengaging emotionally you can spot these tactics. Remain calm and don't get derailed.*
> 
> If the conversations start out about something necessary to discuss, keep it on track and keep it as short as possible. If she is initiating conversations in order to berate you, that is a different animal altogether. I would shut those down immediately by telling her you are willing to discuss relationship issues (or money or kids etc) but only when she is able to be calm and respectful. Then walk away.
> 
> "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" helped me tremendously in dealing with my W when I was married and trying to deal with a verbally manipulative W.


Oohhhh, that explains so much! 

Alright, feedback on this boundary statement:
"I will not condone verbal abuse"

And, this consequence:
"I will not remain in a discussion of any type when I am verbally abused"

But also, please explain, "you could say ONE TIME ONLY that your boundary is not to remain in a conversation when she is angry and abusive, so you left that conversation". Why one time only?


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## anchorwatch

She yells because she doesn't know how else to cope with her frustrations. That's why she continues after you.

Once the yelling and name calling start, conversation over!

Walk away, disengage and don’t take it personally. 

No ego battles. No bringing up the past. No escalated engagement.

If you stick to this and don't engage then she won't get the outcome she's used to. 

Rinse, repeat...

In time she will learn what she's doing will not work anymore. 

KEY... It's up to her to choose the consequences, it's not for you to administer. It's a matter of learned behavior.


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## anchorwatch

Do you have a counselor?


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## Mr.Married

Horse on Ice said:


> You are absolutely correct.
> 
> My problem is this; I have brought up issues that I have with her, but I am not a good communicator, so I know that I have NOT done that in a constructive way. In reading the books, I am learning that I need to set boundaries AND THEN ENFORCE THEM. So, not only do I NOT know how to SET boundaries (I still need to learn what mine are), when I make an attempt, I don't enforce them, and on top of all of that, when I do try to enforce them, it is not so much me enforcing them as me blaming her for doing whatever is was. Which "teaches" me that I should just "stuff" what I'm feeling, which builds resentment, which leads to me "giving up" on a particular issue, which enforces my idea that I do NOT know how to set boundaries, and then circling, circling, circles.
> 
> Am I explaining this in a way that you guys understand what I am saying?
> 
> So, yes. I did give her a hall pass. But the goal for me (at least right now) is for me to learn what my boundaries are, set them, enforce them and then communicate that to her. In that sense, the hall pass is temporary until I "fix" me enough to communicate back to her constructively. At that point, the temporary hall pass is revoked and class is back in session for both of us. Then, I will have an expectation that she will begin/continue working on her and I will be able to enforce my boundaries constructively, even to the point of divorce if that is a necessary consequence.


Fair enough statement...your working a plan. Keep going...don't give up.


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## Thor

Horse on Ice said:


> But also, please explain, "you could say ONE TIME ONLY that your boundary is not to remain in a conversation when she is angry and abusive, so you left that conversation". Why one time only?


It is counterproductive to explain repetitively in a conversation. It looks and is weak. It lets her control the conversation by getting you to defend yourself. As soon as you try to explain your position she will try to turn it on you to make it your fault, or she'll bring up some other past transgression of yours.

There's an acronym DEER. Defend, Explain Excuse, Rationalize. When you get into this mode you have become the defendant, the child, the subordinate. She has become the dominant, powerful, and controller. She is bringing up various topics to force you into DEER mode, which gives her control. Consider that she probably felt helpless or powerless as a child/teen within her family or community. She learned her techniques in order to feel some sense of control.

If you have previously left a conversation because she was being abusive, you told her at that time why you were leaving the conversation. There is no need to revisit that event later on. So if she brings it up you simple repeat your previous explanation, which is your boundary that you will not remain in a conversation when she becomes angry or abusive. The key is for you to be calm about it. This takes away her power. You are re-training her, so just like training a dog you will have to be calm, patient, and consistent.

By being calm and then redirecting the conversation to whatever legitimate subject is at hand, she at first may feel fear at losing power, but if you engage her maturely she will learn (hopefully) that she can get her point of view heard. If you can work together to get to mutually agreeable solutions she will learn she doesn't have to bully you. You do still need to express your point of view and hold to things important to you, and not get steamrolled out of a misguided goal of defusing conflict. Your goal is to train her to use a much healthier and more productive form of interaction. She will then trust you more, too, and ironically she will feel a lot more comfortable in the relationship even though she has stopped trying to dominate.

If you haven't read it yet, you really need to get "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by M. Smith.

There's another book called "The Way of the Superior Man" which is half excellent and half new age stuff which I don't agree with. The good half describes the feminine brain really well. I think it may be worth seeing if your local library has it.


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## Horse on Ice

And I'm back.

After a year and a half of trying to work on me, reconciliation with her, and renovating our rental house, I'm all done.

The catalyst you ask? Her stating (not asking) that she would get her mother to do Thanksgiving dinner. My absolute favorite holiday. I'm the one that has prepped and cooked that meal at least 15 of our 21 together and thoroughly enjoy doing that. I'm the one that absolutely loves having family and friends over during that time. And she knows it. Why this straw on the camel's back? She already asked (or stated, I forget) about a week prior and I told her it was not necessary.

A bit of backstory - I've been pretty much living at the rental house since around February, and home on weekends and maybe one or two nights during the week. It's physically, mentally, emotionally and very soon to be financially draining. 

After my angry response, her explanation was "she was just trying to help reduce my burden, so I wouldn't feel overwhelmed and would have more time to work on the rental house". I realized then, and not just in an "I think, maybe" or "I feel like she..." type of way, but the actual fact, like I read it as the definition in Webster's sort of way, that she does not respect me. As a Husband, a man or a person.

I have yet to get over how she acts towards our sex life. I have tried and tried, but just cannot get this ball of anger and resentment out of my chest. It's not really about the fact that we have sex rarely at best (okay, not JUST) it's her whole attitude about it. From the early stages of our relationship her telling me that I am wrong to want sex so often. To not wanting to have sex because she's in pain (back issues, hysterectomy, etc.) which is understandable, BUT AT LEAST TRY DOING THE EXERCISES THE DOCTOR ORDERED!, to not taking ANY initiative to LOOK for something, ANYTHING, that would help. 

We discuss how she feels like she is tightening up down there due to the hysterectomy. I'm the one that looks for more information on that. I'm the one that finds better lubricants and buys them because she's "embarrassed". I'm the one that suggests she finds she finds something online to help "stretch" (her words, not mine) more down there. I specifically tell her, that her looking for, finding, purchasing and using said item would go a LOOOOONG way towards me feeling like she actually wanted to be intimate with me.

She was too "embarrassed" to look that up on her phone. She felt too uncomfortable using in front of me. I ended up pulling out the laptop and suggesting that we do it together. I'm the one that got the credit card and actually made the purchase. I'm the only one of the two of us that actually showed any excitement when it showed up.

I give up.

I told her I wanted a divorce Monday 10/28/19. She immediately knew I meant it this time. I have absolutely no more emotion towards her except anger and resentment.

A weight lifted immediately after I told her. I am not happy, but lighter. I am not cheerful, but hopeful. I am not depressed, but resolved. I have lied to myself for far too long.

I have stuffed my emotions for too long.

No more.


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## BluesPower

I went back and looked at your thread... WTF... 

I honestly cannot believe that you lasted this long. You must be a glutton for punishment. 

I hope you stick to it. Time to get out and find a new life, without her... 

And that weight lifting, what you don't realize yet is that is what normal people in normal relationships feel like all the time. 

Not that it is perfect, but they don't feel the crushing weight of this crap like you, or me, feel or felt. 

It is also what happiness can feel like.

Keep going...


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## 3Xnocharm

Finally. Good for you!


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## As'laDain

My wife just had a hysterectomy, at age 33. A few weeks ago, she almost bled out from a post surgery complication. Then developed a rare post hystorectomy complication that could have resulted in vaginal bowel evisceration. She is currently not even permitted to have an orgasm(doctors orders), and yet, she is constantly trying to find ways to be intimate with me. 

If your wife wanted you, a hysterectomy wouldn't get in her way. 

Your best bet at this point is probably to stick to the divorce and follow through.


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## Horse on Ice

This makes me want to cry.

I'm sorry she's going through that, I feel a bit of connection to you two, through your advice and feedback, so it touches me as a friend.

And because I'm jealous. Of what could have been. Of what I'm missing.

And because it hits me again that I have wasted far to much time.

Please let her know that I hope for a speedy recovery. If y'all were close enough I'd bring over my standard, sausage and spinach quiche...


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## sokillme

So a couple of things, first I don't know how I missed this thread but I did, and I am sorry for that. I am tempted to respond to your update today with with just the word "duh", but I realize that is just not helpful, but the point is there. 

Seems like you married a narcissist and it's about time you got away from her abuse. I may sound a little harsh but part of that comes from the fact that my step-father was also a narcissist and it cause all kinds of havoc on my life. My Mom should have left him years and years earlier then she did. So I know what it's like to grow up in that environment. I hope it didn't do damage to your kids, but honestly it might have. Staying for the kids can be just as much if not more damaging then leaving. Even if they don't follow the patterns, not having a safe space that has structure and stability (which I would argue a contentious marriage has no possibly of having) can really affect them just by the very nature that they won't have a "safe" base from where they launch their lives. I believe this was probably one of the most destructive things it did to me. I feel I lost years of my life just catching up. When my focus should have been on my future it was mostly on getting away from the drama. That is not to even discuss the possibly of kid mimicking pattern in their own marriages what they saw in their parent's.

The thing is narcissist need the right kind of person who will marry them because not everyone will put up with their ****, so you need to figure out what it is about you that would allow you to stay in a clearly abusive relationship for as long as you were willing to do so. Despite what some folks may think there is nothing noble about allowing yourself to be abused for long periods of time. You have a responsibility to protect the innocent even if that is you. THAT is the noble thing to do. 

I would start there.


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## SunnyT

That feeling of weight being lifted? It's awesome. Even when you get down about "shoulda, woulda, couldas".....that weight is still lifted! 

Allow yourself to be bummed about the loss of a marriage. How you thought it would be. 

And really, allow yourself to be relieved and happy and hopeful about how it can and should be going forward. 

It sounds cliche', but it just is. 

MOVE forward. Don't give any weight to what she says, what she wants, what she thinks. Consider you and the kids. Do what works FOR YOU. Take control of your life. 

Enjoy your children. Let them really get to know you....without her. Do not include her, in anything. Consider starting with Thanksgiving. It might feel too soon....but don't include her. She can have dinner with her mom. Time to start separating the holiday times w/ kids. You do your family/friends.... she does her own thing. All the firsts are kinda weird, sad, awkward.... and necessary. Surround yourself with good, positive people and it will be okay.


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## shortbus

Good for you buddy, onward and upward.
You will heal after the divorce.
Work on you, make yourself a priority.
You have wasted a lot of time, it's your only real commodity. You can't get it back, but you can make the most of what you've got left.
Best wishes and good luck.


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## Horse on Ice

I've been reading quite a bit recently here on TAM as well as a few other sites/books/blogs/tea leaves, etc...

And I wonder, would it be fair to say that there are similarities between a Spouse in a sexless marriage and a Betrayed Spouse?

In reading quite a bit of posts begun by BS's, I see numerous things that stand out that are very similar to my own scenario, way of thinking and corresponding feelings.

Anyone else see or feel this way? Or, am I making connections where there really are none?

(And, I am in no way trying to compare the LEVEL of feelings. I feel a sense of betrayal in this sexless in-between, but not actually betrayed like a BS - see the difference?)

Post your thoughts, I enjoy reading them as I try to make my way through this wilderness of loneliness, grief, sadness and resolve.


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## anchorwatch

When you are emotionally or physically denied by your SO you are being cheated out of a relationship. 

BTW, what is her reaction to your decision to divorce? 


Best

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower

Horse on Ice said:


> I've been reading quite a bit recently here on TAM as well as a few other sites/books/blogs/tea leaves, etc...
> 
> And I wonder, would it be fair to say that there are similarities between a Spouse in a sexless marriage and a Betrayed Spouse?
> 
> In reading quite a bit of posts begun by BS's, I see numerous things that stand out that are very similar to my own scenario, way of thinking and corresponding feelings.
> 
> Anyone else see or feel this way? Or, am I making connections where there really are none?
> 
> (And, I am in no way trying to compare the LEVEL of feelings. I feel a sense of betrayal in this sexless in-between, but not actually betrayed like a BS - see the difference?)
> 
> Post your thoughts, I enjoy reading them as I try to make my way through this wilderness of loneliness, grief, sadness and resolve.


Many believe a sexless marriage is a betrayal. I cannot disagree with that my self. 

It is not however anything like the betrayal of infidelity. Not in the same range at all.

I believe that a person that does not want to have sex with their spouse should have the courage to divorce them. I also believe that no person should stay for any real length of time in a sexless marriage. 

If you don't love them, if you are not attracted to them, then let them go. 

Conversely, if your needs are not being met, and you have tried to talk about it, leave...


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## Horse on Ice

BluesPower said:


> Many believe a sexless marriage is a betrayal. I cannot disagree with that my self.
> 
> It is not however anything like the betrayal of infidelity. Not in the same range at all.
> 
> I believe that a person that does not want to have sex with their spouse should have the courage to divorce them. I also believe that no person should stay for any real length of time in a sexless marriage.
> 
> If you don't love them, if you are not attracted to them, then let them go.
> 
> Conversely, if your needs are not being met, and you have tried to talk about it, leave...


I stayed way too long. Initially because I believed that she was somehow correct, in that my desire for her was not healthy, it was too much. I continued to stay way too long because while going through NMMNG, I began to see changes in both of us. It led to a reconciliation of sorts. Namely, don't bring up the past.

It was wrong.

My past is what is eating away at me on the inside. It has been only recently that I have been able to put it into words, because I did not understand it myself.

Intimate, loving sex is how I create, maintain and sustain a deep emotional bond with my wife. I learned that about myself just a few weeks ago.

The other part of that is the following which in the first post, the OP has very succinctly described how if feel:
https://talkaboutmarriage.com/gener...-ruin-your-marriage-encourage-infidelity.html




anchorwatch said:


> When you are emotionally or physically denied by your SO you are being cheated out of a relationship.
> 
> BTW, what is her reaction to your decision to divorce?
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


Told her I wanted a divorce Monday 10/28. She begged me to stay, not do this, tried changing my mind through begging, guilting, praying, blaming, I guess all the usual methods.
Asked her if we could sit down and discuss property settlement, custody arrangements, etc. on Friday 11/1. Her reply, "No, send me an email"
Sent said email Sunday 11/3
Broke the news to the kids Saturday morning 11/2
Saturday after the divorce talk with the kids, she began asking why again. I did not tell her previously, just kept it to, I want a divorce type of statements. This time I told her.
Explained this was a sexless marriage. That act is how I get the emotional bonding I need. How I have tried to explain this to her. How I gave her 1 very specific way she could show me that she WANTS to be intimate with me, and she failed, worse than failed, she told me it embarrassed her. Which I translate as, she's embarrassed of me. (and no, not a sex act, something that may help to reduce pain for her)

Tried to get across that it is her mindset towards me. As I mentioned before, I believe she does not respect me, and the link above puts those thoughts into words.

Basically no communication since then. She's in bed when I get back to the house and leaves before I come over to make sure the kids are up. I've texted to ask about some documentation that I need and when I can expect a response from her to my email which have gotten no response.

I'll be seeing her at an event tonight that my son is involved in with school. Not sure what's going to take place there.

Thank you all for your responses so far. I appreciate the support and feedback. 

So far there really has been no movement towards the divorce because I'd like to keep it as amicable as possible in an attempt to keep the lawyers to a minimum. That of course will require communication between us and without a response I can go no further without bringing lawyers into it.

Sounds like I'm going to be bringing lawyers into it...


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## Marc878

It's a business decision now. Keep it at that level.

Talk never gets you anywhere in these situations except a longer stay in limbo.

Go your own way there is nothing for you here so put it in the past and keep it there.


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## Casual Observer

Horse on Ice said:


> Broke the news to the kids Saturday morning 11/2
> Saturday after the divorce talk with the kids, she began asking why again. I did not tell her previously, just kept it to, I want a divorce type of statements. This time I told her.
> Explained this was a sexless marriage. That act is how I get the emotional bonding I need. How I have tried to explain this to her. How I gave her 1 very specific way she could show me that she WANTS to be intimate with me, and she failed, worse than failed, she told me it embarrassed her. Which I translate as, she's embarrassed of me. (and no, not a sex act, something that may help to reduce pain for her)


First, how did the kids take it? I didn't read through the whole thread; how old are they?

Second, it is somewhat of a surprise to see not even an attempt at emotional bonding from her. No sudden commitment to MC. No "Can we put things on hold for a few months, give me a chance to show you my love for you in a way that means something to you?" Even the walkaway spouse is prone to second thoughts at such times. 

Best of luck to you.


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## StarFires

Keke24 said:


> OP you do realize that your failure to protect your children from your wife's abusive behavior is in itself abuse, right?


You were advised last year to wear a VAR so you could her on recording. I didn't read past that suggestion from last year and moved straight to your update from yesterday. I'm hoping you did it but fear you didn't. I fear it because I think you're going to have to get your kids involved in the divorce.

You don't want lawyers but you're going to need them for your kids' sakes. The reason I say is that they need counseling after witnessing how she treats their father. They need counseling very badly for that reason alone. But they need counseling because you will no longer be there. I don't know what her neurosis is or what her diagnosis would be - BPD, NPD, or whatever - but the type of person she is, she needs someone to abuse. She needs someone onto which she can apply abuse. Whatever the neurosis, those traits HAVE to be expressed. Whatever the neurosis that causes her to be delusional and abusive, she will need someone to abuse, misinterpret events, and manufacture stories about. Up to now, you were her target. Since you won't be there, she will need another target. I've read about people like her. I've read some stories from children with mothers like her. I've read *some of the research* regarding the *children with mothers like her*. Your children will be severely damaged left in her care with no protections and not even a buffer. There is no one to look out for them and now there's no one to offer any reprieve either.

You don't want lawyers involved, but you're going to need someone to plead your case for your kids. I don't know anything about your finances, but trying to wrangle them from the mother through the courts is a near impossibility when you have no proof, and you have neither a diagnosis nor any recordings if you didn't record her. Trying to get full custody w/ supervised visitation (which is what needs to happen to protect them from her), be extremely expensive and will still probably fail since you have no proof that you have reason to expect they will be in danger or that she will be a bad influence. 

This means, therefore, they will have to testify to your claims of abuse. They will have to corroborate your story to prove your concern for their mental and emotional safety. And you will need expert witnesses. So you need an attorney.

I imagine you've been reeling and haven't thought of things in these terms. I can imagine you just wanted to get away from her. But you can't leave your kids to suffer what you have been suffering. You need to try to save them from that. Unfortunately, they will probably resent you for it, but they are youngsters. They don't know what is best for them. You should know. They are going to need counseling for a long time, and you need to get them away from her to a safe and peaceful environment. But the counseling has to be court-ordered to prevent her blocking them from going.


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## Horse on Ice

Casual Observer said:


> First, how did the kids take it? I didn't read through the whole thread; how old are they?
> 
> Second, it is somewhat of a surprise to see not even an attempt at emotional bonding from her. No sudden commitment to MC. No "Can we put things on hold for a few months, give me a chance to show you my love for you in a way that means something to you?" Even the walkaway spouse is prone to second thoughts at such times.
> 
> Best of luck to you.


CO, the kids are 18 and 15, and while they have some interesting views on things, they are doing okay. (Interesting things = D18 "telling someone you want a divorce when you don't really mean it is just a way to get them to realize they need to apologize" - I have A LOT of work to undo stuff like this)

I didn't mean to minimize, but referenced some of this already. Yes, exactly as you stated, almost verbatim.



StarFires said:


> You were advised last year to wear a VAR so you could her on recording. I didn't read past that suggestion from last year and moved straight to your update from yesterday. I'm hoping you did it but fear you didn't. I fear it because I think you're going to have to get your kids involved in the divorce.
> 
> You don't want lawyers but you're going to need them for your kids' sakes. The reason I say is that they need counseling after witnessing how she treats their father. They need counseling very badly for that reason alone. But they need counseling because you will no longer be there. I don't know what her neurosis is or what her diagnosis would be - BPD, NPD, or whatever - but the type of person she is, she needs someone to abuse. She needs someone onto which she can apply abuse. Whatever the neurosis, those traits HAVE to be expressed. Whatever the neurosis that causes her to be delusional and abusive, she will need someone to abuse, misinterpret events, and manufacture stories about. Up to now, you were her target. Since you won't be there, she will need another target. I've read about people like her. I've read some stories from children with mothers like her. I've read. Your children will be severely damaged left in her care with no protections and not even a buffer. There is no one to look out for them and now there's no one to offer any reprieve either.
> 
> You don't want lawyers involved, but you're going to need someone to plead your case for your kids. I don't know anything about your finances, but trying to wrangle them from the mother through the courts is a near impossibility when you have no proof, and you have neither a diagnosis nor any recordings if you didn't record her. Trying to get full custody w/ supervised visitation (which is what needs to happen to protect them from her), be extremely expensive and will still probably fail since you have no proof that you have reason to expect they will be in danger or that she will be a bad influence.
> 
> This means, therefore, they will have to testify to your claims of abuse. They will have to corroborate your story to prove your concern for their mental and emotional safety. And you will need expert witnesses. So you need an attorney.
> 
> I imagine you've been reeling and haven't thought of things in these terms. I can imagine you just wanted to get away from her. But you can't leave your kids to suffer what you have been suffering. You need to try to save them from that. Unfortunately, they will probably resent you for it, but they are youngsters. They don't know what is best for them. You should know. They are going to need counseling for a long time, and you need to get them away from her to a safe and peaceful environment. But the counseling has to be court-ordered to prevent her blocking them from going.


SF, I did record on my phone. There really wasn't much between then and now. I've been staying at our rental house working on the renovations for 4-5 nights per week since February. During that time, we did take a few weekends to be together, either as trips or just at the house, but I felt myself slipping further and further away. Staying away from her during that time gave me insight into my own feelings, without being clouded by being near her.

I realized that over that time period, I was extremely lax on enforcing my boundaries, fell back into my old habits of being a nice guy.

I CAN'T CHANGE ME WHILE I'M NEAR HER.

Per the example I gave above, I am now realizing that my kids have a warped since of a loving relationship. They do need counseling, so do I. I have spent nearly every free minute reading TAM, NMMNG, and other self-help books. None of them replace an actual therapist, that's what I'll be working towards over the next week or so.

I appreciate the feedback.


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## MattMatt

@Horse on Ice, eventually enough is enough. You passed your limit and if your wife could't or wouldn't see that, there must be a heck of a lot of narcissism going on in her head.


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