# Act like a man!



## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

I have to confess, I hate the expression "Act like a man". (The great scene between the Godfather and Johnny Fontane notwithstanding) Do you ever hear anyone say "Act like a woman?" No. It's a stupid expression whose sole purpose is to tear down a man. Any person who uses it should be shot. Any counselor who uses it should be tortured, then shot. 

But it has become an acceptable way to vent free floating resentment towards a man without making the effort to be articulate about his issues. It's a blame-shifting phrase used in a bullying way. It has absolutely no value. 

There's no single way that men act. Are men supposed to research the behaviors of the statistically typical man and act that way? That would be stupid. There's no one way of acting that will please every partner. 

Any guy who is faced with this phrase should just respond with: 

"I will... when you start acting like a woman"

Rant off.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, guys SHOULD act like men, then we wouldn't have to tell them to >

It especially bugs me when fathers tell their sons to 'act like a man'. 

I do not agree that just because no one says 'act like a woman', that means that telling someone to 'act like a man' should be invalidated. The phrase has meaning which is generally accepted, so the general 'you' knows what it means. No research involved  It's a much shorter way of telling a guy to put his big girl panties on and smarten the hell up.

Speaking of which........................ (big girl panties????)


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Until there is a clearly defined and broadly accepted meaning behind that phrase, it means nothing more than whatever bias and misconceptions the speaker holds.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Do you ever hear anyone say "Act like a woman?" No.


No. But women often get the equivalent: "Stop acting crazy". 

Both phrases are simply a way to totally dismiss the other person's point of view and/or demean them for doing something that the speaker is unhappy with. They're intended to shut the recipient up and stall any attempts at actual dialog about the issue at hand. I've personally found my life to be much more pleasant if I avoid being in relationships (of any type) with people who are wont to spout such nonsense - to either sex.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, guys SHOULD act like men, then we wouldn't have to tell them to >
> 
> It especially bugs me when fathers tell their sons to 'act like a man'.
> 
> ...


I tell my boys to act like a man all the time. Typically followed by "men do their work with pride and without complaining" or "men make their own decisions and will accept the consequence, either good or bad", so they understand what I mean. I'm not sure what I'd say if I had a daughter. I'd probably have to put on my big girl panties and modernize my phrases.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I have to confess, I hate the expression "Act like a man". (The great scene between the Godfather and Johnny Fontane notwithstanding) Do you ever hear anyone say "Act like a woman?" No. It's a stupid expression whose sole purpose is to tear down a man. Any person who uses it should be shot. Any counselor who uses it should be tortured, then shot.
> 
> But it has become an acceptable way to vent free floating resentment towards a man without making the effort to be articulate about his issues. It's a blame-shifting phrase used in a bullying way. It has absolutely no value.
> 
> ...


I can only assume that you are discussing this only as it applied to being stated by a woman...to a man. 

A statement like "Act like a man"...is really a softball....the response should take into account both your own views and the suspected overall goal of the speaker....Since these types of statements are meant to end a discussion, shame a person, or generally dismiss them...Do the opposite..

"Act like Man"..

"I appreciate your candor, would be able to take a moment and enlighten me as to what characteristic of manhood you are referring to...specifically?" 

or my fav...

"Baby...I'm only at 75% of capacity right now...you think you're ready for a 100?" (affix large grin)


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, guys SHOULD act like men, then we wouldn't have to tell them to >
> 
> It especially bugs me when fathers tell their sons to 'act like a man'.
> 
> ...


Guys are men. The transition occurs at puberty. 

So if you are a man then however you are behaving is 'acting like a man'. Maybe you are a dishonest man or a whiny man. Then someone should tell you to stop being dishonest or stop whining. 

Exactly the same thing you would say to a woman who is dishonest or whiny. 

Does Donald Trump act like a man? Is that desirable behavior for a man?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I've only heard that statement used between female friends. Didn't know women even used it to a man's face. How demeaning.
@Hope1964, lol at the 'big girl panties'. You may have managed to offend both men and women. lol That means you're off the hook for bias. It is rumored that Cary Grant wore women's silk undies because he liked the feel of the fabric.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> I tell my boys to act like a man all the time. Typically followed by "men do their work with pride and without complaining" or "men make their own decisions and will accept the consequence, either good or bad", so they understand what I mean. I'm not sure what I'd say if I had a daughter. I'd probably have to put on my big girl panties and modernize my phrases.


Right. So in acknowledgement of the fact that "Act like a man" has no standard or useful meaning, you tell them how to act, but leave the question lingering in their heads, "Do women do their work with pride and accept the consequences of their decisions?" What is different for them? Why? Are they held to a different standard?

I think it's better to leave off the "Act like a man" part.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> I've only heard that statement used between female friends. *Didn't know women even used it to a man's face.* How demeaning.


Sarah Palin To Republican Machine: "Man Up" | RealClearPolitics



I don't know if Sarah Palin originated "man up", but it seems similar to "act like a man", and is used to men's faces.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Sarah Palin To Republican Machine: "Man Up" | RealClearPolitics
> 
> I don't know if Sarah Palin originated "man up", but it seems similar to "act like a man", and is used to men's faces.


I think TAM originated 'man up'. Sarah Palin probably posts here.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Many women use "Be a man!" as and when they choose. If you are aggressive, they complain that you are an MCP and misogynistic, and if you are not, then they say "Be a man!". 
Like the OP said, it's just used to control a man and make him feel guilty and then to manipulate him.

Just like the sexism card that Marissa Mayer is using while ruining Yahoo and still pocketing $50 million.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Blondilocks said:


> I've only heard that statement used between female friends. Didn't know women even used it to a man's face. How demeaning.
> 
> @Hope1964, lol at the 'big girl panties'. You may have managed to offend both men and women. lol That means you're off the hook for bias. It is rumored that Cary Grant wore women's silk undies because he liked the feel of the fabric.


Between women, does it mean "stop acting like a child" or "make me feel like a woman", i.e. romance me? If its that whole romantic ideal thing then it's just a reflection of poor relationship communication.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

I think "Act like a man!" means to stop acting like a _boy_. In other words, start behaving in a _mature_ manner. 

Also, the transition from boy-hood to man-hood doesn't _automatically_ happen when a male turns 18. It's not as if all of this emotional maturity comes flooding into his body on his 19th birthday. I've known of plenty of 30, 40 and 50+ year olds who still 'reason' and act like teenagers. 

Not fun to deal with on a regular basis, especially in an intimate relationship.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the phrase. I'm a man and proud of it. I would never want to be in a position where somebody needs to tell me to "Act like a man". 

If there's a fire and somebody is trapped upstairs I will die saving a total stranger without hesitation. I have plenty of life insurance to make sure my family is taken care of. There are so few men in this world somebody needs to fill the void.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I've heard women say it when referring to their mate's whining or procrastinating or throwing tantrums. Basically, referring to childish behaviors.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Right. So in acknowledgement of the fact that "Act like a man" has no standard or useful meaning, you tell them how to act, but leave the question lingering in their heads, "Do women do their work with pride and accept the consequences of their decisions?" What is different for them? Why? Are they held to a different standard?
> 
> I think it's better to leave off the "Act like a man" part.


I actually like the phrase and am leaving it in my vernacular. I don't really bother about whether it does/should apply to girls/women since I am not raising any. IMO there is already too much push to make everything equal, and instead we need to accept differences and push tolerance.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

nirvana said:


> Many women use "Be a man!" as and when they choose. If you are aggressive, they complain that you are an MCP and misogynistic, and if you are not, then they say "Be a man!".
> .


There are 4 options available for both men and women to guide them through life:

Aggressive
Passive Aggressive
Passive
Assertive

There's a huge difference between all 4 of them. The first three are dysfunctional. Only the last one works. 



> Like the OP said, it's just used to control a man and make him feel guilty and then to manipulate him.


The saying isn't meant to control him or make him feel guilty or to even manipulate him; it's meant for _HIM_ to control _HIMSELF._ 

It's sad that so many people don't seem to strive for maturity anymore.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Vega said:


> It's sad that so many people don't seem to strive for maturity anymore.


Strive for maturity...hell...I resist it with all the strength I have. 

Way more fun to be had that way


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

The equivalent for women is act like a lady.

I see both phrases as just a way of shaming people into conforming to social norms.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

nirvana said:


> Just like the sexism card that Marissa Mayer is using while ruining Yahoo and still pocketing $50 million.


Huh?


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

I resent it when a woman uses the phrase in an attempt to hold me to (or shame me into) a standard of conduct or accountability to which she herself does not adhere or feel bound.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

wild jade said:


> The equivalent for women is act like a lady.
> 
> *I see both phrases as just a way of shaming people into conforming to social norms*.


I think it depends on the context it's being used.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

wild jade said:


> The equivalent for women is act like a lady.
> 
> I see both phrases as just a way of shaming people into conforming to social norms.


Correct. Just like "Murderer" is a phrase used to shame people into conforming to social norm.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Joey2k said:


> I resent it when a woman uses the phrase in an attempt to hold me to (or shame me into) a standard of conduct or accountability to which she herself does not adhere or feel bound.


If there are no more real ladies in this world it's still not an excuse to be a whiny sissy boy.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

KillerClown said:


> Correct. Just like "Murderer" is a phrase used to shame people into conforming to social norm.


Those Bastards.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Do you ever hear anyone say "Act like a woman?"


No, different things get directed at women when they are displaying a behavior other people don't like. The constant questioning if she's being "too emotional" about a topic or the subtle or not so subtle ways people will question if you are "crazy" or in some way mentally ill. 

I mean, that's common enough here on TAM. It's rare for a male poster to be actually labeled a Narcissist even if displaying all the serious signs of it, but a male OP bringing up a "crazy wife" and she'll get all kinds of mental health accusations and labels - usually BPD.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Why must everything that mentions one gender or the other be labelled as mysoginistic or misandristic? Are those even words?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Bah. Too many thin-skinned sissies of both sexes running around. Everyone needs to Sack Up more - by whatever gender appropriate means necessary.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Bah. Too many thin-skinned sissies of both sexes running around. Everyone needs to Sack Up more - by whatever gender appropriate means necessary.


I call foul. Women don't have sacks. Unless you count the ones under our eyes.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I call foul. Women don't have sacks. Unless you count the ones under our eyes.


What do you call those pendulous bags of mostly water hanging off the front of your torso? 

Sacks, I call 'em.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OK, I can give you that.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

Cletus said:


> What do you call those pendulous bags of mostly water hanging off the front of your torso?


Mmmmmm....I forgot. Dangly things?


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

They're just words. They can only hurt you if you believe that you are somehow deficient.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> What do you call those pendulous bags of mostly *water *hanging off the front of your torso?
> 
> Sacks, I call 'em.


Not to nitpick - but, they are mostly pendulous bags of fat. Please get your facts straight.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Cletus said:


> What do you call those pendulous bags of mostly water hanging off the front of your torso?
> 
> Sacks, I call 'em.


Chestnuts


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Ive heard the expression used FAR more by men towards other men, but only when there are women around to witness it. It's just a means of puffing themselves up. Says far more about the person using the phrase, imo.

Yer not a REEL man, cuz yew can't make yer wife shoot sparks out her ass! I bet I could show her wut a REEL man can do! Hyuk hyuk hyuk.

Seriously. You know the reason guys blow their sh!t and start punching people? It's because we spend our lives afraid that someone might find out that we think puppies are cute.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

KillerClown said:


> If there's a fire and somebody is trapped upstairs I will die saving a total stranger without hesitation.


You would die without hesitation, really!?

Absent having done this (since you are evidently alive) how can you know what you would do.

It's one thing to help someone at risk of some harm, it is another thing to do the same in the face of probable immediate extinction.

Do you know how hard it is to actually move when everything in front of your eyes is playing in slow motion and your limbs feel so heavy as they also move in slow motion?

When you have moments, just moments, so very few moments, in one of those moments hesitation will show itself. Though you may turn away from hesitations embrace you will know the warmth in its breath.

Do you know what it feels like to be the only one standing without a scratch (because you were ½ an inch to the left), while everyone else around you is scattered upon the ground all smashed up in a bloody slippery mess (it happened to me)?

How does anyone know what they will actually do until it happens to them?

The only thing I am certain of is I might or might not try...


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Personal said:


> You would die without hesitation, really!?
> 
> Absent having done this (since you are evidently alive) how can you know what you would do.
> 
> ...


Ive found the issue to be not remembering what you did till much later. Much much later till you realize you would still hate yourself for both the choicea you made and the ones you didnt help, even when you couldn't. The knowledge that nothing was really in your control does nothing to assage the quilt. It is ever present, like an old enemy that knows all your secrets and mocks your happiness.

No one ever knows...they just know that they could have veen better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Not to nitpick - but, they are mostly pendulous bags of fat. Please get your facts straight.


Still mostly water


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I have two daughters. One is 14 and one is 12. At this age, they can sometimes act like a kid and sometimes act more adult. When they are acting up, I will sometimes tell them that they need to "act more adult" in this situation. I see the term "act like a man" in this same light. Children are prone to crying and lashing out. They are easy to upset and often make irrational decisions. "Act like a man" to me says "Grow up. Stop crying about this and do something about it. Stop feeling sorry for yourself." I do not see this as a sexist statement unless it's being said to a female. It's really no different than me telling my children to "make an adult decision here" or to "act like an adult." Now, before I get lambasted for how I raise my children, they get plenty of time to be "just kids." 

I have never heard the term "act like a woman" but I'm not sure that it's a sexist thing.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Rant off.


Men don't rant.....


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Like anything else, it all depends on the situation and context in which the saying was used.

There have been plenty of times when around friends we tell each other to man up, stop being a pu$$y, grow a pair, take the dildo ouy of your arse (wait, what ) etc... nothing more than playful banter, all within a small group, not said to publicly shame or degrade.

Heck, I have even told my W to stop being a pu$$y which cracks her up.

I would focus not on the words, but the context/situation in which those words were used


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

To all the ladies who are okay with a woman telling a man "Be a man!", are you okay when your husband/boyfriend tells you "Be a lady!" or "Why can't you be more lady-like?"?

If you are okay with it, then you I think you have the right to say "Be a man!".

Also, please remember that your man may say "Be a lady!" on his own terms and not yours. He may say it and you might think he is manipulating you and telling you what to do. You may think that you are being a lady and he is still saying this. For example, if you don't cook dinner, he may say it. Or if you cut your hair short, he may say it because long hair is feminine. 

It's a slippery slope ladies. Dive in as long as you know what you are getting into.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Joey2k said:


> I resent it when a woman uses the phrase in an attempt to hold me to (or shame me into) a standard of conduct or accountability to which she herself does not adhere or feel bound.


Perfectly put, Joey.
In my experience, many women think it is okay to say it to a man, but recoil in horror when a man says it to them. Then they accuse the man of being sexist and controlling because they think they are always "lady-like". Even if they aren't, they don't like a man telling them that.

The feminists wanted an equal world. They are getting it.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, guys SHOULD act like men, then we wouldn't have to tell them to >
> 
> It especially bugs me when fathers tell their sons to 'act like a man'.
> 
> ...


LOL

My cousin tells his nephew (8yo) while practicing football in the Alabama heat that he "Needs to put his big girl panties on and cowgirl up" 

No idea what this means exactly but it does make me laugh


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

nirvana said:


> Perfectly put, Joey.
> In my experience, many women think it is okay to say it to a man, but recoil in horror when a man says it to them. Then they accuse the man of being sexist and controlling because they think they are always "lady-like". Even if they aren't, they don't like a man telling them that.
> 
> *The feminists wanted an equal world. They are getting it.*


I do agree that "feminists" -in the context you have used want an equal world...But I don't think they have really achieved it....this is simply my opinion- but I believe that key to achieving equality isn't all the argument about affirmative consent, rape-culture, equal pay, etc..even though they are legitimate and real things. I believe much of the problem is deeper more insidious than the surface effects we hear so much about. 

An example, that I see frequently, 2 applicants for a position...1 male, 1 female. We have them specifically request salary, benefits, allowances, etc..that they desire with the position. 

The male applicant will typically ask for substantial salary, vehicle, moving expenses, clothing allowance, etc...

The female applicant...without exception...will ask for a smaller salary and typically will NOT request moving expenses, vehicle, etc...

Why is this? What compels this person to ask for LESS than the industry standard pay and benefits? What factors exist that would compel a female to de-value her knowledge, skills and abilities? I believe it would have to come from many factors, externally, occurring over-time, that would cause her to internalize the idea that she and her contributions are less worthy than her male counterparts. 

Until we can address this problem, we will all suffer from the loss of insight, creativity and productivity of these women and their families will suffer from a conspicuous lack of resources that, given her contributions, they should enjoy. 

TL/DR: Equality isn't happening....we don't even know all the things we are losing because of it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Maybe it's the guy OVER valuing his worth, and not the woman undervaluing hers ???

People just can't win any more. No matter what, someone has a problem with whatever 'it' is. 

Do people have a problem with telling women to 'act like a man'? That seems to be what you're saying women should do, @MarriedDude, at least with respect to job hunting.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Tell you what last night in weightlifting class there was a young lady who was more of a man than me. I can one rep max a back squat of 100 kg, this woman could 125 kg. 

I tried to man up my 55 year old body, but no way no how. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Maybe it's the guy OVER valuing his worth, and not the woman undervaluing hers ???
> 
> People just can't win any more. No matter what, someone has a problem with whatever 'it' is.
> 
> Do people have a problem with telling women to 'act like a man'? That seems to be what you're saying women should do, @MarriedDude, at least with respect to job hunting.


Not really...I am just noting the differences in how each attempt to place a dollar amount on their value in terms of work. I don't know that there could be direct correlation or causation based on their gender. Unless assigning value (in terms of currency) is inherently male or female...which I don't know. 

Not really saying a woman should act like a man, nor that a man should act like a woman. Just noting the differences that i have observed on this specific issue...I don't believe i possess the background, knowledge or experience that would be required to state a causal relationship between these things..

But I do believe, based on what I have been able to observe, there is inequality...it is real, it is entrenched and more importantly inhibits our potential.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, I for one do not believe that men and women should be equal in all things. I do not agree, for example, that the standard for physical fitness should be lowered in first responder professions just so more women can do the job. If I'm unconscious in a burning building, I want someone who is able to get me out, not someone who was hired just to fulfill a minority quota requirement. I don't care whether they're male or female.

I do agree with you about it inhibiting our potential. I don't know if the answer is to stop telling men to act like men though. Maybe the answer is to tell EVERYONE to act like a man.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, I for one do not believe that men and women should be equal in all things. I do not agree, for example, that the standard for physical fitness should be lowered in first responder professions just so more women can do the job. If I'm unconscious in a burning building, I want someone who is able to get me out, not someone who was hired just to fulfill a minority quota requirement. I don't care whether they're male or female.
> 
> I do agree with you about it inhibiting our potential. I don't know if the answer is to stop telling men to act like men though. Maybe the answer is to tell EVERYONE to act like a man.


I concur...I want someone able to pull my a$$ out of that building...I don't really care about their gender...i prefer survival. 

I wish I had an answer...to this and so many other things...there are just too many things that I don't know that are interesting and I feel I should know...but lack sufficient time (and probably cognitive ability) to actually do so. Part of the human condition i suppose...


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Personal said:


> You would die without hesitation, really!?
> 
> Absent having done this (since you are evidently alive) how can you know what you would do.
> 
> ...


I grew up in South Central LA. Studied fighting art for 35 years. Bloody slippery mess? Been there done that. I'm alive and earning a decent living wearing suit and tie because I'm luckier than PeeWee Herman. It's been all icing on the cake. 

Ironically, the only friends still alive from the old neighborhood were cops and military. No hesitation my friend.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, I for one do not believe that men and women should be equal in all things. I do not agree, for example, that the standard for physical fitness should be lowered in first responder professions just so more women can do the job. If I'm unconscious in a burning building, I want someone who is able to get me out, not someone who was hired just to fulfill a minority quota requirement. I don't care whether they're male or female.
> 
> I do agree with you about it inhibiting our potential. I don't know if the answer is to stop telling men to act like men though. Maybe the answer is to tell EVERYONE to act like a man.


Are you saying that it is better to act like a man than a women in all situations? 
So are men better than women? >


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

MarriedDude said:


> I do agree that "feminists" -in the context you have used want an equal world...But I don't think they have really achieved it....this is simply my opinion- but I believe that key to achieving equality isn't all the argument about affirmative consent, rape-culture, equal pay, etc..even though they are legitimate and real things. I believe much of the problem is deeper more insidious than the surface effects we hear so much about.
> 
> An example, that I see frequently, 2 applicants for a position...1 male, 1 female. We have them specifically request salary, benefits, allowances, etc..that they desire with the position.
> 
> ...


Women getting paid less than men is just a myth. There are so many factors that it cannot be explained so easily.

If a woman does not negotiate hard enough, whose fault is it? Hers. I talked to a female friend and she told me that she usually accepted the first offer. Only once did she negotiate and that was for 2% more. I always negotiate and am shameless about it. I push it to the point they say "Ummm NO.". Then I accept. It's all business but many women hate the unpleasant nature of negotiation. My own wife hates it and I had to badger her to demand $5k more. She got it (thanks to me). 

Women value other benefits more. Like flex time, no overtime, good medical benefits, relaxed work env etc. Men usually care about the pay package, title and work and less on work env and social stuff. 

For the same work, why would a company hire a man and pay more? I would pay less and show more profit for the company. And it's always nicer to see women walking around the office floor than men! :grin2: 

So men and women both get what they want. Many women understand this. Some feminists just want to create an issue about this because they have nothing else to do. They expect higher pay and promotions to be handed to them just because they are women.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> An example, that I see frequently, 2 applicants for a position...1 male, 1 female. We have them specifically request salary, benefits, allowances, etc..that they desire with the position.
> 
> The male applicant will typically ask for substantial salary, vehicle, moving expenses, clothing allowance, etc...
> 
> ...


Maybe because they don't have any idea how much an employer is willing to pay? Maybe because even if there is an industry standard for a position, different companies may have different names for the same position, or maybe a position at one company may have more or less responsibilities than a position with the same title at another company, and expecting applicants to come up with a salary without any kind of guidance or indication of the actual salary range is a sh!tty way for an employer to post a job.

You want to talk about losing out on applicants, do you have any idea how many qualified applicants you are losing out on who won't even apply for a job that doesn't list a salary range?

(Sorry, I know this is a slight derail, but these type of hiring shenanigans really rub me the wrong way)


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

nirvana said:


> For the same work, why would a company hire a man and pay more? I would pay less and show more profit for the company. And it's always nicer to see women walking around the office floor than men! :grin2:


This is a good point. If women really can be hired for less, why aren't women getting all the good jobs instead of men? And in that case, wouldn't women be running the companies in a few years, at which time equal pay should become the norm anyway (unless all women really do hate all other women :grin2?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> Maybe because they don't have any idea how much an employer is willing to pay? Maybe because even if there is an industry standard for a position, different companies may have different names for the same position, or maybe a position at one company may have more or less responsibilities than a position with the same title at another company, and expecting applicants to come up with a salary without any kind of guidance or indication of the actual salary range is a sh!tty way for an employer to post a job.
> 
> You want to talk about losing out on applicants, do you have any idea how many qualified applicants you are losing out on who won't even apply for a job that doesn't list a salary range?
> 
> (Sorry, I know this is a slight derail, but these type of hiring shenanigans really rub me the wrong way)


I can assure you -in my industry -this is normal and customary. Given the hazards and unique requirements...any salary we would list would be highly subject to interpretation and further....if they are so new...that they don't know the rate for the work...we don't want them here. For their own safety...and ours


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Women getting paid less than men is just a myth. There are so many factors that it cannot be explained so easily.
> 
> If a woman does not negotiate hard enough, whose fault is it? Hers. I talked to a female friend and she told me that she usually accepted the first offer. Only once did she negotiate and that was for 2% more. I always negotiate and am shameless about it. I push it to the point they say "Ummm NO.". Then I accept. It's all business but many women hate the unpleasant nature of negotiation. My own wife hates it and I had to badger her to demand $5k more. She got it (thanks to me).
> 
> ...


Some women haters just act like nothing's wrong because they have nothing else to do.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Herschel said:


> Some women haters just act like nothing's wrong because they have nothing else to do.


Typical response from someone who has no other logical arguments to make.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

nirvana said:


> Women getting paid less than men is just a myth. There are so many factors that it cannot be explained so easily.


So easily, huh? Got all the answers to people making a big deal about absolutely nothing! Lemme see!!!



> If a woman does not negotiate hard enough, whose fault is it? Hers. I talked to a female friend and she told me that she usually accepted the first offer. Only once did she negotiate and that was for 2% more. I always negotiate and am shameless about it. I push it to the point they say "Ummm NO.". Then I accept. It's all business but many women hate the unpleasant nature of negotiation. My own wife hates it and I had to badger her to demand $5k more. She got it (thanks to me).


Apparently women are too incapable of negotiating (which is weird since most women I know fight to not pay full price for anything). They apparently need a MAN to come in and get them what they are worth! So, going by your unfounded premise here, isn't the game tilted towards men then? If men are deemed as better negotiators, then, if you need to make more money, only a man could maximize these benefits. 

Your "Women getting paid less than men is just a myth." is a lie since you actually proved it right in this instance, but instead, blamed the woman for it.



> Women value other benefits more.


OH DO THEY, HMMMMM?



> Like flex time,


I work with 5 other dudes and we all LOVE the flex time we have. In fact, all of us agree that we could go somewhere else to make MORE money, but the flexible time here has kept us here so we can spend more time with our family. But, women love it more cause they hate work...gotcha.



> no overtime,


Yeah, gotta be in that job that lets you get home to cook dinner ASAP before hard working hubby comes home and is hungry. Wait, no.



> good medical benefits,


Yeah, I'd rather the cold hard cash in my hand than having my kids be able to go to the dentist, covered by my business. Sorry kids, dad's got cigar smoking and OTB to do, you'll grow another tooth!



> relaxed work env etc.


Yeah, they need to be able to pick up the phone and gossip with their sister or their mom about all the crazy stuff that happened all morning long.



> Men usually care about the pay package, title and work and less on work env and social stuff.


So, women care about all those other things, yet, when a man is in that same job, he gets paid up to 25% more. But he HAS all the same things. Your absurd analysis of how men and women pick jobs isn't even valid. You are comparing two different TYPE of jobs. Nobody is saying a teacher makes less than a lawyer and since more women are teachers and more men are lawyers then women make less than men. It's when they are working the SAME FREAKIN JOB BRO!



> For the same work, why would a company hire a man and pay more? I would pay less and show more profit for the company. And it's always nicer to see women walking around the office floor than men! :grin2:


The differences in salary are usually not the defining aspect of whether a company makes a profit. Nobody is going around most companies and saying, "Fredricks, I see you are significantly underpaying the employees in this sector, good job man, keep it up!" Keeping your employees happy and wanting to come back to work is what creates a better working environment and more fruitful employees. 



> So men and women both get what they want. Many women understand this.


NO! Women want to be paid the same! If you asked a woman who was on the factory floor if she should get paid as much as the dude next to her, she would say YES! If you somehow got HR to approve her having extra time off for the lesser pay, she'd say, shove it up your ****ing ass HR!



> Some feminists just want to create an issue about this because they have nothing else to do. They expect higher pay and promotions to be handed to them just because they are women.


Sorry dude, you are hating on women. I'd call you a pig if it was ok to do that here, but I don't think it is, so I won't call you a pig.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

If we're going to go down this discussion road, then listen to what professional economists have to say about the matter. Have an informed opinion - read the transcript, or listen to the podcast: (and if you're not already listening to Freakonomics, you should be)

The True Story of the Gender Pay Gap - Freakonomics Freakonomics


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Ive heard the expression used FAR more by men towards other men, but only when there are women around to witness it. It's just a means of puffing themselves up. Says far more about the person using the phrase, imo.
> 
> Yer not a REEL man, cuz yew can't make yer wife shoot sparks out her ass! I bet I could show her wut a REEL man can do! Hyuk hyuk hyuk.
> 
> Seriously. You know the reason guys blow their sh!t and start punching people? It's because we spend our lives afraid that someone might find out that we think puppies are cute.


A real man can eat quiche AND think puppies are cute.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> A real man can eat quiche AND think puppies are cute.


I've never understood the saying "real men don't eat quiche". Quiche is full of fatty eggs, cheese, and often ham or sausage. It's like an omelette on steroids. How is that not manly?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> I've never understood the saying "real men don't eat quiche". Quiche is full of fatty eggs, cheese, and often ham or sausage. It's like an omelette on steroids. How is that not manly?


Do you fry quiche in bacon grease? I thought not.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> A real man can eat quiche AND think puppies are cute.


But not at the same time.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Joey2k said:


> I've never understood the saying "real men don't eat quiche". Quiche is full of fatty eggs, cheese, and often ham or sausage. It's like an omelette on steroids. How is that not manly?


Cuz real men think that 'quiche' is a sissy foreign word and a French one at that. It doesn't matter that it's a western omelet squeezed into a pie crust.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Cuz real men think that 'quiche' is a sissy foreign word and a French one at that. It doesn't matter that it's a western omelet squeezed into a pie crust.


Doesn't everyone like Egg Pie?:smile2:


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Cuz real men think that 'quiche' is a sissy foreign word and a French one at that. It doesn't matter that it's a western omelet squeezed into a pie crust.


Doggone it, you beat me to it! I was just getting ready to explain it without getting zapped by the pc police.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> But not at the same time.


Not smart enough?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I didn't like the taste or the consistency of the quiche I tried. Don't know what that recipe called for or how it was baked, but it wasn't a western omelet, which I have eaten and liked. Regular pie crust would not be particularly disgusting or beneficial to the flavor, but it might play some part in the consistency, when soaked with the liquid mixture before being baked. There was something bitter with undertones of sickly sweet about the one I tried. 

The word doesn't phase me. Neither does the word p***y, which I have eaten and like very much, but is a word used to shame a man.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not smart enough?


Nope. We have two separate brains, but the inter-core bridge is a bottleneck and one of the CPUs is way too application specific.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> A real man can eat quiche AND think puppies are cute.


Real men neither know how to pronounce qwishee nor spell keesh.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> If we're going to go down this discussion road, then listen to what professional economists have to say about the matter. Have an informed opinion - read the transcript, or listen to the podcast: (and if you're not already listening to Freakonomics, you should be)
> 
> The True Story of the Gender Pay Gap - Freakonomics Freakonomics


I'll never understand why so many people feel the need to have strong opinions about topics about which they know so little.

I tell my kids that having a strong opinion is rarely called for, especially in your early 20's.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I'll never understand why so many people feel the need to have strong opinions about topics about which they know so little.
> 
> *I tell my kids that having a strong opinion is rarely called for, especially in your early 20's*.


^^^^This. 

Strong opinions...no matter how strong, are still simply opinions. 

My strongest opinion has remained, for some time, that there is just too damn much to learn.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Quiche is an amazing low carb food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I not only eat quiche, I make it. I make it like a boss.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> . Maybe the answer is to tell EVERYONE to act like a man.


Or maybe the answer is to leave _gender_ out of the equation, and simply tell *people* to _GROW UP_!


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

MarriedDude said:


> I do agree that "feminists" -in the context you have used want an equal world...But I don't think they have really achieved it....this is simply my opinion- but I believe that key to achieving equality isn't all the argument about affirmative consent, rape-culture, equal pay, etc..even though they are legitimate and real things. I believe much of the problem is deeper more insidious than the surface effects we hear so much about.
> 
> An example, that I see frequently, 2 applicants for a position...1 male, 1 female. We have them specifically request salary, benefits, allowances, etc..that they desire with the position.
> 
> ...


Well, I disagree with your analysis. I think you've missed the boat entirely here. You blame the woman's behavior on "inequality", and seem to imply that the woman is a victim as an explanation for her own behavior.

I would point out other situations in which this very same difference in typical male/female behavior is LAUDED:
For example, you may be familiar with data that shows women investors AS A GROUP are more conservative than men. The men take more risks, and the losers outweigh the winners, so that AS A GROUP, women's "slow and steady" investment style has an edge over the men's riskier style.
In a similar fashion, women are typically praised for a "consensus" style of management, rather than men's more confrontational style. The more restrained approach here is regarded as a virtue, and more "inclusive".

So, really, it seems to me that you have the very same type of behavior differences---women more restrained, men more aggressive--which works out well in some situations, but not others. The problem is not at all one of victimhood, but rather the simple fact that the same behavior style doesn't work for all situations.

Are you now going to lament the inequity that leads male victims to be overly aggressive in investment and management? To use words analogous to what you posted above:

"Why is this? What compels these men to shoot for MORE than the standard return in investment and management? What factors exist that would compel males to overvalue/risk their knowledge, skills and abilities? I believe it would have to come from many factors, externally, occurring over-time, that would cause him to internalize the idea that he must risk more than his female counterparts. 

Until we can address this problem, we will all suffer from the loss of investment income and managerial contributions of these men, and their families will suffer from a conspicuous lack of resources that, given his contributions, they should enjoy."

Will you be feeling this for the men who suffer from their own behavioral choices in investment/collaborative management, just as women suffer from their own behavioral choices in negotitation?

Or maybe the problem is just that men and women each have their own particular type of hammer, and there are times when they each use it on an unsuitable nail.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

MarriedDude said:


> ^^^^This.
> 
> Strong opinions...no matter how strong, are still simply opinions.
> 
> My strongest opinion has remained, for some time, that there is just too damn much to learn.


I tell my kids that if you have a strong opinion you had better be able to defend it. 

The other thing I tell them is that some opinions are better than others. That is, there are such things as stupid opinions and smart opinions. They are not equal.

ETA: some people seem to think that stupid opinions should be given equal weight. Where is the critical thinking these days?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, I disagree with your analysis. I think you've missed the boat entirely here. *You blame the woman's behavior on "inequality", and seem to imply that the woman is a victim as an explanation for her own behavior.*
> 
> _*I don't think I stated that, or implied that the basis of inequality is the "Woman's behavior"...I did note that there are observable differences in the way the genders approach negotiation (in this instance) and that they result in a disparity in wages/payment/fringes/etc..*_
> 
> ...


You could be right. I thought i was pretty clear that i had no partucular dog in this hint, just observation. I would agree, from what i have been able to observe, in terms of male investment, yes...ambition frequently trumps ability (but i think this may apply to humanity in general)

But i do believe that comparing job seekers....to capital investment groups...at least in this discussion...is rather spurious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Vega said:


> Or maybe the answer is to leave _gender_ out of the equation, and simply tell *people* to _GROW UP_!



I am on board with this!
Good suggestion.

I absolutely hate the hypocrisy of being okay with saying sexist insulting things to men, but crying foul when someone says something back.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Herschel said:


> So easily, huh? Got all the answers to people making a big deal about absolutely nothing! Lemme see!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you want more pay then DEMAND it. Don't whine, and complain. No one has time or sympathy for whiners. If you don't like the pay, QUIT and find a new one and DO NOT ACCEPT a low offer. If you do then it is YOUR FAULT. 
I have at times accepted low ball offers even taking a 10% cut just for a better more sane work env. I did not blame someone else. I negotiated but was not able to get parity with the job I was quitting. So I accepted, all things considered.

Take responsibility for your failures and stop blaming others. 



> I work with 5 other dudes and we all LOVE the flex time we have. In fact, all of us agree that we could go somewhere else to make MORE money, but the flexible time here has kept us here so we can spend more time with our family. *But, women love it more cause they hate work...gotcha.*


I like flex time too. But my wife likes it more than me. I see this in many couples in our age group. Women tend to take more responsibility of the kids than men. Maybe you have no kids so this may not be part of your requirements.

You seem to have some weird issues. You are putting words in my mouth. 





> Yeah, gotta be in that job that lets you get home to cook dinner ASAP before hard working hubby comes home and is hungry. Wait, no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What on earth are you prattling on about?




> So, women care about all those other things, yet, when a man is in that same job, he gets paid up to 25% more. But he HAS all the same things. Your absurd analysis of how men and women pick jobs isn't even valid. You are comparing two different TYPE of jobs. Nobody is saying a teacher makes less than a lawyer and since more women are teachers and more men are lawyers then women make less than men. It's when they are working the SAME FREAKIN JOB BRO!


There is no such thing as "Same freaking job" unless it is mundane assembly work or flipping burgers. Go fight about that, even many women today don't want such jobs. For intellectual jobs which need professional degrees, it comes down to skills, experience and how good to negotiate. I bet many women make more than me and many make less. 
Stop blaming others for your failures. Own up.



> The differences in salary are usually not the defining aspect of whether a company makes a profit. Nobody is going around most companies and saying, "Fredricks, I see you are significantly underpaying the employees in this sector, good job man, keep it up!" Keeping your employees happy and wanting to come back to work is what creates a better working environment and more fruitful employees.
> 
> NO! Women want to be paid the same! If you asked a woman who was on the factory floor if she should get paid as much as the dude next to her, she would say YES! If you somehow got HR to approve her having extra time off for the lesser pay, she'd say, shove it up your ****ing ass HR!


You seem to be angry at the world and looking for a way to explain away your failures. If you want to be paid more, go get an education, find a job and negotiate hard. No one will present you with a job on a platter.



> Sorry dude, you are hating on women. I'd call you a pig if it was ok to do that here, but I don't think it is, so I won't call you a pig.



The last refuge of a failure in life is to point fingers at others and accuse others of being sexist, racist, haters etc.

I pity you


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

You don't get it. You are just spitting out sexist ideologies to defend how women get paid less. You are proving your entire premise wrong. Instead of saying women get paid less is a myth, say, "Women get paid less because they don't deserve more."



nirvana said:


> If you want more pay then DEMAND it. Don't whine, and complain. No one has time or sympathy for whiners.


OMFG. Seriously dude? Women don't demand to get paid more, they just whine and complain? You concept of what a woman is has gone the way of the freakin Ed Sullivan Show.



> If you don't like the pay, QUIT and find a new one and DO NOT ACCEPT a low offer. If you do then it is YOUR FAULT.
> I have at times accepted low ball offers even taking a 10% cut just for a better more sane work env. I did not blame someone else. I negotiated but was not able to get parity with the job I was quitting. So I accepted, all things considered.
> 
> Take responsibility for your failures and stop blaming others.


Your implication is that women are NOT CAPABLE of negotiating as well as men. You are calling them inferior. And then blaming them because of it. Oh lil lady, you need a hand from big stud nirvana making a few more bucks. Here's a slap on the ass for ya, now go fetch me a beer, would ya? 



> I like flex time too. But my wife likes it more than me.


Wait, your wife enjoys you at work while she is at home more than you do? Color me shocked!



> I see this in many couples in our age group. Women tend to take more responsibility of the kids than men. Maybe you have no kids so this may not be part of your requirements.


I have 2 of my own kids, I have a step daughter, I do as much with them as any woman would. Why? Because I love being a parent and life should be balanced as such. 



> You seem to have some weird issues. You are putting words in my mouth.


The only thing that ends up being in your mouth is your foot.



> There is no such thing as "Same freaking job" unless it is mundane assembly work or flipping burgers.


Really, I am a systems administrator, but while we all have different responsibilities, we all get paid roughly the same (differences based on tenure). Of course, we are all men. If a woman was hired, she'd not deserve as much, because we'd put her on coffee duty, and looking cute in a short skirt duty. I'll be glad when Bill is no longer on that.



> Go fight about that, even many women today don't want such jobs.


Nobody wants those jobs. Nobody wants a factory job if they can get a nice sit down at your desk job. Women work it. Lucy and Ethel (trying hard to relate with you) had it. Of course, those stupid women effed it all up, so, maybe they deserved to get paid less.



> For intellectual jobs which need professional degrees, it comes down to skills, experience and how good to negotiate. I bet many women make more than me and many make less.
> Stop blaming others for your failures. Own up.


Yeah, and many professional jobs have wage brackets. At my job, I am win the "M" bracket. Most of these jobs aren't the issue. HR has cracked down on a lot of these types of discrepancies at larger companies. The problem lies more in smaller companies and businesses. Some women make more than you, but you are saying that in general they make less, mostly because they can't negotiate.



> You seem to be angry at the world and looking for a way to explain away your failures. If you want to be paid more, go get an education, find a job and negotiate hard. No one will present you with a job on a platter.


Angry at the world? When did you become the world? You seem to be a megalomaniac. I am angry at people who make generalizations and ignorant comments and think that their anecdotal "evidence" equates to how everything works in the real world. Talk less and listen more.



> The last refuge of a failure in life is to point fingers at others and accuse others of being sexist, racist, haters etc.


What are the refuges before that? This seems to be a cliche you latched on to in order to justify being sexist. Is there evidence of it? Do you have proof that I am a failure in life and in turn, all I can do is accuse innocent little you of being a sexist in order to what? Make myself feel a bit better about my terrible life? What would I do if you weren't sexist though? Just kill myself because I had nobody to point a finger at? If so, thank you for saving me.



> I pity you


I question your sincerity of pitying me with the smiley face.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Vega said:


> Or maybe the answer is to leave _gender_ out of the equation, and simply tell *people* to _GROW UP_!


Oh, but then the ones who identify as aliens will get their sh!t all in a knot.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Herschel said:


> You don't get it. You are just spitting out sexist ideologies to defend how women get paid less. You are proving your entire premise wrong. Instead of saying women get paid less is a myth, say, "Women get paid less because they don't deserve more."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm going to ignore all this angry emotional stuff above and ask you some questions.

Let's assume that I own a company. I post a job opening for manager of a product (an intellectual skill position) and get 2 candidates who I have to decide between. One is male and the other is female. They both are very similar in experience and education in my opinion.

If I had 2 openings looks like you are saying that I will offer the man $100k and the woman $70k?

If I had 1 opening, I would offer the man $100k and not offer the woman?


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

nirvana said:


> I'm going to ignore all this angry emotional stuff above and ask you some questions.
> 
> Let's assume that I own a company. I post a job opening for manager of a product (an intellectual skill position) and get 2 candidates who I have to decide between. One is male and the other is female. They both are very similar in experience and education in my opinion.
> 
> ...


This isn't how it works. It works in a form of raises tend to be slightly more for men than women. It works like men aren't intimidated by other men and push for what they want, but often women are intimidated because of the old boys club and the lack of women near and at the top.

You may offer the guy $100K, but assume that the woman may leave to have kids or won't be able to work the long hours and whatnot so offer her less as you think you may need to pay someone else more to compensate. Really, there are a plethora of ways to explain how justifications are made to pay women less.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Some women make more than you, but you are saying that in general they make less, mostly because *they can't negotiate.*


According to a recent news report, a study has shown that this is not even true. Women just make less.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Why is this even a discussion about gender equality? We're talking about acting like a man. A man should be a better man today than yesterday and better man tomorrow than today, regardless of what anybody else is doing. If I'm surrounded by thieves, I'm still not going to steal.

If you are not getting paid what you're worth then you should do something about it. I know that if I am in a position to pay somebody for their labor I will pay them fairly regardless of gender. I can only control what I do and you are the master of your own destiny. Social trend means nothing to me because it does not affect who I am and what I do.

Can you please get back to the original subject? Gender politics is boring.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

MarriedDude said:


> You could be right. I thought i was pretty clear that i had no partucular dog in this hint, just observation. I would agree, from what i have been able to observe, in terms of male investment, yes...ambition frequently trumps ability (but i think this may apply to humanity in general)
> *
> But i do believe that comparing job seekers....to capital investment groups...at least in this discussion...is rather spurious*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, the studies that documented this typically were NOT of capital investment groups. They were reviews of individual family household investors, much more comparable to an individual job seeker. Not spurious at all.

For example, this landmark article on this topic looked at INDIVIDUAL investors' accounts in a discount brokerage:
https://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/odean/papers/gender/BoysWillBeBoys.pdf


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> I have to confess, I hate the expression "Act like a man". (The great scene between the Godfather and Johnny Fontane notwithstanding) Do you ever hear anyone say "Act like a woman?" No. It's a stupid expression whose sole purpose is to tear down a man. Any person who uses it should be shot. Any counselor who uses it should be tortured, then shot.


"Act like a man" means "take responsibility for yourself like an adult". Yes, it can be used to tear a man down, but it can also be used to shake him up when he needs it.

The reason why no one ever says "act like a woman" is because that would not have the same meaning. What "act like a woman" would mean, if it were said, is left to the reader as an exercise. >


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> "Act like a man" means "take responsibility for yourself like an adult". Yes, it can be used to tear a man down, but it can also be used to shake him up when he needs it.
> 
> The reason why no one ever says "act like a woman" is because that would not have the same meaning. What "act like a woman" would mean, if it were said, is left to the reader as an exercise. >


That's my problem with it, the implication that more is expected of a man than a woman. Or to put it another way, that we tolerate weaknesses or bad behaviors from women that we don't tolerate from men. 

I have no problem with not tolerating bad behavior, as long as everyone is held to the same standard.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> That's my problem with it, the implication that more is expected of a man than a woman. Or to put it another way, that we tolerate weaknesses or bad behaviors from women that we don't tolerate from men.
> 
> I have no problem with not tolerating bad behavior, as long as everyone is held to the same standard.


Men and women are not the same, so holding them to the same standard doesn't make sense.

Of course, the logical consequences of that statement are horrifying to many people.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> Men and women are not the same, so holding them to the same standard doesn't make sense.
> 
> Of course, the logical consequences of that statement are horrifying to many people.


"take responsibility for yourself like an adult" is a reasonable expectation for everyone.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Joey2k said:


> "take responsibility for yourself like an adult" is a reasonable expectation for everyone.


It would be wonderful if the culture and legal system agreed with you.

Or alternately, if that is not a reasonable expectation, then those exempted from that expectation should have guardians to prevent excessive costs from being transferred to those who *are *subjected to it.

If you get my drift.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Herschel said:


> This isn't how it works. It works in a form of raises tend to be slightly more for men than women. It works like men aren't intimidated by other men and push for what they want, but often women are intimidated because of the old boys club and the lack of women near and at the top.
> 
> You may offer the guy $100K, but assume that the woman may leave to have kids or won't be able to work the long hours and whatnot so offer her less as you think you may need to pay someone else more to compensate. Really, there are a plethora of ways to explain how justifications are made to pay women less.


Raises are subjective. How will you legislate against that? This is a "problem" that can never be solved. A job interview is subjective. Maybe the woman interviewing me didn't like my male face because I smiled like her abusive ex-husband. How will I fight this? 

I have been in situations where I didn't like my raise. After a whole year of results, I get a piddly reward. What do I do? I am male. 

If I don't like what I get, I go look elsewhere. Women should do the same and not complain that they make less. Go start your own company or quit and join and negotiate hard like others do.

What is your solution against people who pay a woman less because they might have kids?

In the same way, what is your solution for me when they pay me (non white) less because they think that clients might not want to see my brown face and prefer to see a white (but less qualified) face instead? Tell me?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

nirvana said:


> Raises are subjective. How will you legislate against that? This is a "problem" that can never be solved. A job interview is subjective. Maybe the woman interviewing me didn't like my male face because I smiled like her abusive ex-husband. How will I fight this?
> 
> I have been in situations where I didn't like my raise. After a whole year of results, I get a piddly reward. What do I do? I am male.
> 
> ...


The solution to all those issues is very simple, and I'm sure Hillary has it ready to go: The government decides how much each company will pay each employee.

I can't imagine how that could go wrong!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> The solution to all those issues is very simple, and I'm sure Hillary has it ready to go: The government decides how much each company will pay each employee.
> 
> I can't imagine how that could go wrong!


That actually would have been Bernie, not Hillary.


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