# The cheater feels worse than the cheated... Discuss!



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

My OH did something that bothered me the other day that triggered what happened with the OW (I found him in a mild EA that got cut off before it developed.)

I was quite to-the-point and logical - ie "when you do x it reminds me of y, I find it hurtful, please don't continue to do it."

He got defensive and when he was talking said that I "probably don't believe it but sometimes the person who did the bad thing feels worse than the person who had it done to them."

My first reaction was, "I can't believe that!" but if I said he is a genuine person who says what he thinks, I know there is some heartfelt belief to him that he feels this.

FWIW he's been good at rebuilding and things are good between us. I'd be really interested to hear what others think about this statement. Has anyone's cheating spouse said something like this? Can any cheating spouses relate? Any thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The pain of being betrayed is incomparable to anything else one could ever feel. It seriously makes you question every.single.thing and makes you wonder what was real? What wasn't real? It's a deep-searing hurt unlike any other. There is simply nothing that even comes close to that feeling.

A cheater who is actually remorseful also deals with pain. A different kind of pain. It's a "WTF have I done/how could I/I am a piece of sh!t" for doing this. Guilt is a motherf-cker. Not living up to a standard you held for yoursself is awful. Knowing you've betrayed someone you love is very hurtful.

There is pain on both sides, (I speak from experience).

So yes both feel pain. But for him to say his pain is worse than yours is stupid. He should not try to minimize yours or say that his pain is greater. Empathy goes a long way.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> The pain of being betrayed is incomparable to anything else one could ever feel. It seriously makes you question every.single.thing and makes you wonder what was real? What wasn't real? It's a deep-searing hurt unlike any other. There is simply nothing that even comes close to that feeling.
> 
> A cheater who is actually remorseful also deals with pain. A different kind of pain. It's a "WTF have I done/how could I/I am a piece of sh!t" for doing this. Guilt is a motherf-cker. Not living up to a standard you held for yoursself is awful. Knowing you've betrayed someone you love is very hurtful.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I believe Jelly because she has been both LW(BW) and DW(WW). She experienced both types of pain.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

And I can tell you they BOTH suck royally. It's icky. And that is putting it in very light terms. I wouldn't wish the pain from being cheated on or the guilt from cheating on anyone. They both seriously mess with your head.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Jelly is correct from my experience and I too have been on both ends.

The difference in my mind is that the cheater can end/minimize his pain/guilt quicker by simply coming clean where the BS is just screwed until they can get past it.

The worst of the pain I felt cheating all but ended once I came clean.
That`s when it started for the betrayed.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I too have been on both sides. I did not know the depths of despair until I was cheated on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I've been on both side too, tobio, as you know. I was cheated on first, and the pain is greater than anything I've every experienced...physically, mentally and emotionally. It's worse than the pain of losing a loved one. 

The pain of being the cheater is more like "death by a thousand paper cuts." It hurts...we bring it up...no one cares and that hurts even worse...it hurts more...we bring it up (or try to)...no once cares and it gets worse...ad infinitem. And even when you slip off the slippery slope and the snowball starts rolling and gathering momentum, the pain of being the cheater is more like resentment and self-focused anger than the nuclear bomb of foundational destruction that occurs when you are cheated ON. 

Being the loyal spouse, EVERYTHING you based your life on is in damaged and in question. You can't trust yourself, your own perceptions, what you believed, who you believed...it is all wiped out. That just is NOT the case when you do the cheating. 

HOWEVER, having said all that, I will say that is sounds like your FWH may need a bit of acknowledgement that he hurt too, and that it wasn't only "you." I'd say just mention it or in some way let him know that you do realize it was painful for him as well.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> the pain of being the cheater is more like resentment and self-focused anger than the nuclear bomb of foundational destruction that occurs when you are cheated ON.
> 
> Being the loyal spouse, EVERYTHING you based your life on is in damaged and in question. *You can't trust yourself, your own perceptions, what you believed, who you believed...it is all wiped out.* That just is NOT the case when you do the cheating.


When I told my girlfriend about how my ex-wife had betrayed me, she asked me if I no longer trusted women in general and I told her no, that *what I no longer trusted was my judgement in finding a faithful woman*.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I agree totally about it changes your perception and reality. I don't think even now he fully grasps it. Compared to many on here my story is "mild" as to what he did. However the effects have caused a lot of heartache.

I cannot imagine just how he could feel worse than I have. I recall saying many times that he cannot know how it feels to think that so many things around you that you thought you knew, believed and understood, to be false or put into question. I mean right down to the little things. The complete upheaval of your world. He does not have that. He has always known how I felt and feel about him. My commitment to our relationship. He has never had cause to question that. 

Whilst I understand he feels guilt and remorse, I feel almost angry for him to even say that because it shows he does not possess that empathy to put himself in my shoes. He says he does and compares it to issues that cause him stress or have done, but they are not the same.

I think he is meaning a guilt, also a frustration that my feelings at times which he finds troublesome, are doen to what he did. He wants me to feel better and when I don't it's a reminder to him of what he did, something he deeply regrets and almost disassociates himself from because it is so far removed from the usual "him.". So I don't doubt he feels very bad. I can see it and feel it. I just don't think he will ever truly understand what that betrayal does to your whole world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I don't think cheating should be some kind of pi**ing contest as to who is hurt most. That kind of attitude is what leads to cheating in the first place. So the comments reveal that it's the same old same old just new words to an old tune.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

HNU

No I didn't mean it as a contest. I meant it as my OH lacking empathy into how deeply what he did affects me. Of course he could say I lack empathy about how deeply it affected him. I think it's the WAY in which cheating hurts rhe cheated that makes it more profound and life-altering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyH (Nov 11, 2009)

In my opinion, the fact that he is experiencing pain could be evidence of his empathy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I have been absolutely miserable. I know all about the questioning of everything. When she left to move in with the POSOM, she told me that she gave up on us 4 years before. Now whenever I look at photos the first thing I do is look at the date then do the math to see if she loved me when it was taken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

What I want to know is, why does my wife still get upset when I try to talk to her about her cheating. Yes, it was 8 years ago, but she was a total B afterward, for years. I cheated after I found out about hers, but I didn't feel bad because I felt justified in my actions. I regret it, but don't feel bad at all. She says she is remorseful for what she has done, and punishes herself everyday for ruining the relationship, because her actions changed me. But when I try to get her to talk, about both of our transgressions, she gets upset when it gets to her. I have no problem talking about what I did. I explained to her that it was all reactions to what she did and how she acted after. I guess she gets upset because she doesn't have a reason, as she cheated within our first year of dating when things were pretty much perfect.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

LuvMyH I see your point. I think he has a degree of empathy. I don't think he realises how all-encompassing it has been though. He hates seeing me upset and knowing it's down to him for something he bitterly regrets.

Hoosier, I sometimes pick up old receipts when tidying and check what it was for and the date. Like if I remember rhat outing and if it was pre or post what happened. Like if I was happy or not. I get that.

Mikey I wonder if your W feels like she won't talk because she has "unjustified" anger. She feels angry and betrayed at what you did as any cheated person would but feels conflicted because she knows she wouldn't feel like that if it wasn't for what she did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

tobio said:


> HNU
> 
> No I didn't mean it as a contest. I meant it as my OH lacking empathy into how deeply what he did affects me. Of course he could say I lack empathy about how deeply it affected him. I think it's the WAY in which cheating hurts rhe cheated that makes it more profound and life-altering.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly, what I meant is that first of all people say they cheat because their spouse isn't giving them what they need, so they are hurt, and look for attention elsewhere. Then after the fact, to say, well, I am hurt more than you. To me, it's like they are in some kind of p*ssing contest, trying to justify what they did or how they are acting by saying they are needier or more sensitive to someone else. Because everyone is so individual, it's just not comparable. IMO, maybe people hurt more or less because they are more or less adept at identifying their own needs and communicating and relating in a way that gets them met. Lacking skills such as this is one thing, but to compare one hurt to another shows a lack of empathy, except maybe making too many excuses for themselves. I didn't mean YOU were turning it into a contest, I meant that his statement didn't show much progress. Using the vocabulary, yes, he is, but the underlying attitude doesn't seem to have budged very much from where he started.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Can't speak from cheater's perspective myself, but let me toss in a story here.

My WW had a dream last week about me having a revenge affair. She woke up in the middle of the night, fuming, not realizing it was a dream. Then breathed out with relief when it dawned it wasn't for real. 

She said she never felt that hurt before, and was so happy when she finally woke up.. at which point I had to laugh - am living her nightmare for months now, for real.

So, to answer the original question: NO.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

tobio said:


> I don't think he realises how all-encompassing it has been though.


He doesn't. And he won't unless he is ever cheated on by someone he is married to.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

tobio said:


> LuvMyH I see your point. I think he has a degree of empathy. I don't think he realises how all-encompassing it has been though. He hates seeing me upset and knowing it's down to him for something he bitterly regrets.
> 
> Hoosier, I sometimes pick up old receipts when tidying and check what it was for and the date. Like if I remember rhat outing and if it was pre or post what happened. Like if I was happy or not. I get that.
> 
> *Mikey I wonder if your W feels like she won't talk because she has "unjustified" anger. She feels angry and betrayed at what you did as any cheated person would but feels conflicted because she knows she wouldn't feel like that if it wasn't for what she did.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand she feels angry and betrayed, but I am willing to discuss it with her ad nauseum. She is the type though that would rather not because she says she doesn't want to remember. But I told her, if we don't discuss to figure out where we went wrong, we will be susceptible to making the same "mistakes" again.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I can not say that I really wish it were true, but I dont believe it is true.

I think cheaters are usable to beginto comprehend the hurt they have caused. If they did they would never stop screaming in agony because that site step beyond the betrayal. So no they don't feel worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> There is pain on both sides, (I speak from experience).


Have you been both a BS and WS?

edit - nvm, should have read further down the thread. *sigh*


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## ashamed74 (Jan 30, 2012)

Today has been calm but both me fwh and fww have had a few flair ups over this matter. It gets on my nerves being called a liar by a liar. Two days since any flair ups so I think I'm ready to stand another day of insults without reaching my wits end. I feel she's no better. The biggest difference between us is my screw ups never owned my life the way hers did the last three years when I might as well been a single father. She told OM she loved them, me no such talk to any OW just strictly fun. At this point none of it really matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

There is no way that the cheater can feel worse!! They went in to this with eyes open - they decided to lie, to tell half truths and to take time away from their families - the cheated has had no choice in the matter . My H has cried several times, he has made everything open to me , has lost weight and has had trouble sleeping and yet . . . I don t feelsorry for him - he decided to take this path and yes at the moment he is doing all the heavy lifting but I have to say I m glad to see him hurting - Hopefully over time my feelings will change but no way in hell will I ever feel sorry for him


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> HOWEVER, having said all that, I will say that is sounds like your FWH may need a bit of acknowledgement that he hurt too, and that it wasn't only "you." I'd say just mention it or in some way let him know that you do realize it was painful for him as well.


I see this a lot on TAM. The BS camp is constantly calling the WS camp un-empathetic, selfish, etc etc. And they are right, the cheating was selfish and dishonest, but what I never see is the BS camp coming out from behind their cloak of betrayal to empathize with the WS in any way at all. 

"Oh, you feel bad? Boo hoo. You have destroyed the BS! You have no right to our empathy! You are selfish, dishonest, and your pain doesn't matter because it's all your fault."

This kind of attitude is insidious in that it attacks self esteem, capability for happiness, confidence in judgement; it takes away all sense of self and control.

And to this, some in the BS camp will say, "Good."

With many of the BS camp's posts they are always, "me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me...". And that's understandable, we're all selfish when we're in pain; I just wish that more people recognized that. Until you've been on both sides of the coin, you'll never understand what the other side is going through and unless you acknowledge that, it's always going to be about "me me me."


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

I think that is totally possible depending on each person.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

ilovechocolate said:


> They went in to this with eyes open - they decided to lie, to tell half truths and to take time away from their families


Sorry, you're wrong. If you've never been in an A, you have no idea what goes on in the WS' head. You have no idea how the thought processes work, the decision loops, the confusion, the justification, the chemical addiction.

Actually, that's not true. If you are a recovered alcoholic or a reformed drug user then you have an idea. Otherwise, you're living in world in which you simply cannot comprehend what went through our heads.



ilovechocolate said:


> the cheated has had no choice in the matter. My H has cried several times, he has made everything open to me, has lost weight and has had trouble sleeping and yet . . . I don't feelsorry for him - he decided to take this path and yes at the moment he is doing all the heavy lifting but I have to say I' m glad to see him hurting


And that desire for revenge is natural; you've been wronged and it's natural to want to see the other side hurt for it. But this is all about "you you you" (see my post above).



ilovechocolate said:


> Hopefully over time my feelings will change but no way in hell will I ever feel sorry for him


For your sake, I hope your feelings change too. And I hope that you will one day feel sorry for him because unless you acknowledge that he's in pain too (if he is), you're never going to empathize with him either and I can't see how the two of you can grow close again. But I'm not living your life; perhaps I am wrong.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> Sorry, you're wrong. If you've never been in an A, you have no idea what goes on in the WS' head. You have no idea how the thought processes work, the decision loops, the confusion, the justification, the chemical addiction.
> 
> Actually, that's not true. If you are a recovered alcoholic or a reformed drug user then you have an idea. Otherwise, you're living in world in which you simply cannot comprehend what went through our heads.


I'm not going to speak for you in your particular case, but I think you're stretching it when you try to apply it to all.

I've said it before. I've had to deal with hard-core dopers on several more occasions than I would have liked to and this "affair addiction" doesn't hold a candle to real hard drugs. Comparing the two is calculated whitewashing of straight-up, voluntary, eyes-open hedonism.




TCx said:


> Until you've been on both sides of the coin, you'll never understand what the other side is going through and unless you acknowledge that, it's always going to be about "me me me."


And I do not believe that all waywards are going through such heart-rending torture while they run around making the beast with their co-respondents. It simply doesn't compute. I'm sure my wife had plenty of righteous good times with her beaux. She never felt a twinge. I don't need to be a cheater myself to know that for darned certain.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

mikeydread1982 said:


> I understand she feels angry and betrayed, but I am willing to discuss it with her ad nauseum. She is the type though that would rather not because she says she doesn't want to remember. But I told her, if we don't discuss to figure out where we went wrong, we will be susceptible to making the same "mistakes" again.


What's with the "we went wrong"? "We" is not part of the equation. Be a man and own up to what you did. The only thing your wife did wrong was that she married a cheater.
_Pos
ted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

lascarx said:


> I'm not going to speak for you in your particular case, but I think you're stretching it when you try to apply it to all.
> 
> I've said it before. I've had to deal with hard-core dopers on several more occasions than I would have liked to and this "affair addiction" doesn't hold a candle to real hard drugs. Comparing the two is calculated whitewashing of straight-up, voluntary, eyes-open hedonism.
> 
> ...


Well said. Some of us have more evil dwelling inside us than others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

And the reason I don t know what is going on in a WS head is because I ve never put my self in the position of having an affair - yes I ve felt attraction to other men and yes I ve been propsitioned but because I was married I did nt act . 

People know right from wrong my H knew it was wrong - he should have stopped but he was just interested in his own satisfaction - so no I don t feel sorry for the Ws - he s had the fun now pay the price .


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

He has no way of knowing how much pain you have been through. But I think he said something stupid and off the cuff as we all do. He hears you but you need to give him space and assume he will do the right thing. Try not to make it more than it is. 

What he may really have meant was that he deeply regrets what he did and it hurts him to see how much he hurt you. That is good, it shows character. That along with his support of you and 4 kids is another indication of a strong sense of responsibility.

It may help to Calmly tell him how you feel and then back off. . If I remember correctly, he is the type of man who needs to ruminate without being pressed. 

I think He depends on your good opinion of him. I base that on reading your previous post. He will act honorably if you assume that he is basically a good person. 

Tobio your man's image of himself seems to be tied to what you think of him. It may be good at this time to trust that he is a good man and capable of making the right choices. Every one says stupid things. 

Eventually, you will have to recover from the triggers. It is part of forgiveness. If he has proven worthy of your trust and respect, then assume the best. You cannot help the triggers and he has to expect to deal with them as they come up. At this point though, you may want to self-soothe on minor triggers and tell him about major ones. Then back off and give him space to do the right thing on his own. He needs you to think the best of him even though he f::ked up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

My cheating ex feels no remorse for what he has done. Why? Because he only continued to do it. Those who want real change, work for real change. Those who are filled with real remorse, work to make it better. It has now been 8 months since our divorce. He's still never apologized or showed any signs of feeling bad. So IMO, the cheater does not feel worse than the betrayed. The cheater (in my case) feels nothing.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Some cheaters do hurt - others (like Apple's ExH) most certainly do not. However, for those that do the pain is self inflicted and therefore not really worthy of much sympathy and ALWAYS subordinate to the pain of those their actions have hurt.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> I'm not going to speak for you in your particular case


Thanks. 



lascarx said:


> I've said it before. I've had to deal with hard-core dopers on several more occasions than I would have liked to and this "affair addiction" doesn't hold a candle to real hard drugs. Comparing the two is calculated whitewashing of straight-up, voluntary, eyes-open hedonism.


What comparison would you draw then? The first time I saw my OW, after 2mo of not seeing her, all of those initial feelings came rushing back. I was ready to leave my W and charge after her, etc etc etc. Two weeks of "You are emotional; don't do anything rash. This is just the chemicals talking" later and I was almost back to normal.

Another month passed and I saw her again. It was comfortable and it felt great. But again, after she was gone I felt the loss and went absolutely crazy again and that lasted at least a week. Same thing, "Just hold on... hold on... hold on... it will pass.. it will pass... you will not leave your life for a relationship that has a 3% chance of success. If you leave it will be for you and you will know that you will be alone when you do it. She is not perfect, you will not leave your wife and daughter for something doomed to fail. If you leave, it will be for you and not for her. It will pass... hold on..."

And I just saw her again two nights ago at a work social gathering. I didn't even speak to her (we seem to be avoiding each other) and still those god damned chemicals are driving me insane. The thoughts that are running through my head scare even me. So I've been being over attentive to my daughter and over attentive to my W trying to remind myself of what I've got. And even still, it's insane what is going through my head.

It is an addiction mate and it's a powerful one. Okay, so it's not cocaine, but it really is amazing what those chemicals do.



lascarx said:


> And I do not believe that all waywards are going through such heart-rending torture while they run around making the beast with their co-respondents. It simply doesn't compute.


No, that's the point. The WS is, at least in my case, in love with their AP and the only feelings that matter to the WS are those of the AP; everything else becomes this distant nagging feeling. I'm sorry dude, but you simply cannot understand how potent it is can be until you've been here.

And for me, this was just from an EA... I can't even imagine what would have happened had it turned physical. If you see a lack of empathy for the BS in the WS actions, that's because there is a lack of empathy there until we actually realize what's going on. If the WS doesn't think about it or doesn't come to that conclusion then you are right, they won't feel that gut wrenching sense of empathy for their BS. What they will feel is the sense of loss for their AP and see the AP hurting and feel butchered by it, as I do.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> What comparison would you draw then? The first time I saw my OW, after 2mo of not seeing her, all of those initial feelings came rushing back. I was ready to leave my W and charge after her, etc etc etc. Two weeks of "You are emotional; don't do anything rash. This is just the chemicals talking" later and I was almost back to normal.
> 
> Another month passed and I saw her again. It was comfortable and it felt great. But again, after she was gone I felt the loss and went absolutely crazy again and that lasted at least a week. Same thing, "Just hold on... hold on... hold on... it will pass.. it will pass... you will not leave your life for a relationship that has a 3% chance of success. If you leave it will be for you and you will know that you will be alone when you do it. She is not perfect, you will not leave your wife and daughter for something doomed to fail. If you leave, it will be for you and not for her. It will pass... hold on..."
> 
> ...


You bet it isn't dope. The difference is that you were able to make the choice, you turned your back on it each time. A hardcore addict can kick, but he can't just keep on taking a "little" fix now and again, trying to make a parallel to your seeing your fancy woman every so often. 

As soon as that dope addict takes that little fix, he's back in the grip and probably won't get out again. He will commit violent crimes rather than be deprived of his fix. This affair hormone claptrap is nothing like that. The cheater still has the faculties to choose between right and wrong and if he chooses to do wrong, it's still of his own free will and not because his brain is being chemically stewed like hospital-food prunes. That's why when someone says, the affair fog is like a meth hit, I have to call horsepucky and whitewash. We're all just made of chemicals, when it comes down to it. You can't blame it on those chemicals, you know you want your fancy woman just because you want her. That wanting may never go away and then you'll just have to depend on pure willpower, all talk of chemicals will be useless. Maybe you'll go on wanting her until you croak, in which case that would be kind of like how the triggers in betrayed folks feel, don't you think? Your willpower will be your key and will determine whether you are a man or a snake.




TCx said:


> No, that's the point. The WS is, at least in my case, in love with their AP and the only feelings that matter to the WS are those of the AP; everything else becomes this distant nagging feeling. I'm sorry dude, but you simply cannot understand how potent it is can be until you've been here.


Sure I can. I felt rather that way about my wife before I found out what she was. I still say that if you want to straighten up and fly right, you gather your will and you walk away.




TCx said:


> And for me, this was just from an EA... I can't even imagine what would have happened had it turned physical. If you see a lack of empathy for the BS in the WS actions, that's because there is a lack of empathy there until we actually realize what's going on.


Horsepucky. You know what's going on and you choose to turn your back on it. Won't not can't.




TCx said:


> If the WS doesn't think about it or doesn't come to that conclusion then you are right, they won't feel that gut wrenching sense of empathy for their BS. What they will feel is the sense of loss for their AP and see the AP hurting and feel butchered by it, as I do.


Then use your willpower not to feel for your fancy woman. If you want to stay with your wife, that is. As I said: your willpower will be your key and will determine whether you are a man or a snake.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> The pain of being betrayed is incomparable to anything else one could ever feel. It seriously makes you question every.single.thing and makes you wonder what was real? What wasn't real? It's a deep-searing hurt unlike any other. There is simply nothing that even comes close to that feeling.
> 
> A cheater who is actually remorseful also deals with pain. A different kind of pain. It's a "WTF have I done/how could I/I am a piece of sh!t" for doing this. Guilt is a motherf-cker. Not living up to a standard you held for yoursself is awful. Knowing you've betrayed someone you love is very hurtful.
> 
> ...



:iagree:


The person who gets cheated on feels way worse the person who cheats ive said it before is a special kind of person. They have already shown there true character and their intentions of what they will do when they want. They do not feel nearly as bad because the cheaters now what the consequences can be and look past that they take often a sick pleasure in knowing they are the ones with power and can hurt the other. Its a power thing it really comes down to that at times.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

TCx said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay. I have realised, helped by the counselling we did, that the actions of my OH (and I suspect the majority of WS) were not those of someone who was purposefully out to seek an A. In OH's case, he had very poor boundaries. He met this woman at work, and found her attractive. Not something I like to think about but I accept this happens. She overtly pursued him but he never specifically put his hands up and said NO. He did not draw a line, he crossed the line, wandered over it, whatever.

The problem with this for a while was that to him, this was something that "happened" to him. As he never specifically went out looking for an OW, to him he was an unfortunate victim of those particular work circumstances. What it took him a long time to admit was that he was an active participant in what happened BECAUSE he failed to have relationship boundaries around this other woman. He felt that as long as he claimed that they "were just friends", he was absolved of any responsibility for what happened. And he genuinely believed that they were "just friends" for a while.

My point is that actions have consequences. I understand the functioning of chemicals in attraction. The thing is, we are not animals. We are functioning human beings who have the ability to make decisions over our biological imperatives. Every time my OH stayed in the same room to conversate with the OW, every time they stood close and shared details of their lives, he was taking a step closer, he was cultivating the attraction and breeding it. He may not have been aware of it at the time. Or he may have been aware of it. But at every point he was completely aware that he was in a committed relationship. I think it is safe to say that despite the chemicals going on, he was able to still consider that getting close to and kissing another woman was something that is not acceptable within our relationship. Yet he made the choice to perpetuate their relationship. At any point before that he could have acknowledged the feelings and taken steps to curb what was going on. But he didn't. It could have been a passing attraction. But HE MADE it into something more. He MADE it into a mutually acknowledged attraction that went a step too far. Do you see?

I honestly don't think he deserves sympathy for indulging his feelings. I can accept he will find others attractive. I don't think he deserves sympathy for nurturing those feelings. That is HIS cross to bear. I know my OH feels bad but that is the nature of guilt. Guilt is selfish. That is on him. That is one of the consequences for his actions. 

Catherine, I think that you have noticed something in saying that his image of himself is tied into what I think of him. I think he would vehemently deny this if I told him. I do know he wants me to think of him as the man he was before, the solid, dependable guy who always had my back. The one who considered himself to be morally principled, straight down the line. He has never been able to fully align the "him" that cheated with the "him" that he considers himself to be.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

tobio said:


> My point is that actions have consequences. I understand the functioning of chemicals in attraction. The thing is, we are not animals. We are functioning human beings who have the ability to make decisions over our biological imperatives. Every time my OH stayed in the same room to conversate with the OW, every time they stood close and shared details of their lives, he was taking a step closer, he was cultivating the attraction and breeding it. He may not have been aware of it at the time. Or he may have been aware of it. But at every point he was completely aware that he was in a committed relationship. I think it is safe to say that despite the chemicals going on, he was able to still consider that getting close to and kissing another woman was something that is not acceptable within our relationship. Yet he made the choice to perpetuate their relationship. At any point before that he could have acknowledged the feelings and taken steps to curb what was going on. But he didn't. It could have been a passing attraction. But HE MADE it into something more. He MADE it into a mutually acknowledged attraction that went a step too far. Do you see?


Picture-perfect summary. He chose to do wrong, to succumb to hedonism. No one made that choice for him.




tobio said:


> I honestly don't think he deserves sympathy for indulging his feelings. I can accept he will find others attractive. I don't think he deserves sympathy for nurturing those feelings.


He doesn't and he doesn't. I would say what he does deserve is to be booted out the door with his suitcase behind him, but that one's of course up to you.




tobio said:


> I do know he wants me to think of him as the man he was before, the solid, dependable guy who always had my back. The one who considered himself to be morally principled, straight down the line.


Well, he can write that one off. Whatever your hopes for the future, you'd do well to tell him that the soonest you'll see him exactly that same way again is sometime on the far side of never. What he's done is forever and he should start there, start getting used to how that shirt feels.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> As soon as that dope addict takes that little fix, he's back in the grip and probably won't get out again. He will commit violent crimes rather than be deprived of his fix. This affair hormone claptrap is nothing like that.


It's the same thing but to different degrees. You can minimize it all you like, but it's still there.



lascarx said:


> We're all just made of chemicals, when it comes down to it. You can't blame it on those chemicals.


Ergo, you can't blame a dope addiction on chemicals either?



lascarx said:


> Horsepucky. You know what's going on and you choose to turn your back on it. Won't not can't.


I can see how this perception is so attractive. That the other person intentionally set out to hurt you and so it's all their fault. It's a very simple and comforting way of looking at things and assigning blame.

Granted, the obvious retort is "I can see how your denial is so attractive, so that you don't have to admit that you intentionally did something so evil".

And, of course, the next argument is "and given that the BS has the higher moral ground, we'll go with their side of things, thanks very much".

IMHO, nothing is as simple as good and evil. *shrug*



lascarx said:


> Then use your willpower not to feel for your fancy woman. If you want to stay with your wife, that is. As I said: your willpower will be your key and will determine whether you are a man or a snake.


Doesn't work that way and you know it.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> I honestly don't think he deserves sympathy for indulging his feelings. I can accept he will find others attractive. I don't think he deserves sympathy for nurturing those feelings. That is HIS cross to bear. I know my OH feels bad but that is the nature of guilt. Guilt is selfish. That is on him. That is one of the consequences for his actions.


It is not about sympathy and I doubt that you OH would want sympathy. Understanding OTOH, yes, because that leads to forgiveness. 

Without these I simply don't see how anyone can move on and actually R.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> It's the same thing but to different degrees. You can minimize it all you like, but it's still there.


You just made my point for me. The affair hormone argument nonsense is nonsense precisely because it is so minimal in the scale of things. You can overcome it with plain willpower, unlike is often the case with hard dope. That is, if you choose to overcome it.




TCx said:


> Ergo, you can't blame a dope addiction on chemicals either?


The chemicals and the addiction are the result of choosing to do plain dumb wrong by letting the cause into your life to begin with.

In the second French Connection movie, the bad guys shot the cop up with heroin and turned him into an addict, you remember that? Now if that cop ended up doing something crazy and criminal in order to get a fix, I might be inclined to say diminished responsibility. He didn't choose to take that first shot. But those who do, know full well what they're playing with and need to take responsibility for everything that comes thereafter. 




TCx said:


> I can see how this perception is so attractive. That the other person intentionally set out to hurt you and so it's all their fault. It's a very simple and comforting way of looking at things and assigning blame.
> 
> Granted, the obvious retort is "I can see how your denial is so attractive, so that you don't have to admit that you intentionally did something so evil".
> 
> ...


Friend, were you born on a flying saucer? You marry one woman, you play around with another, in our society that is a clear transgression of the moral contract. Are you telling me you didn't know you were doing wrong?




TCx said:


> Doesn't work that way and you know it.


Sure it does. It's a matter of reaching a decision, fancy woman or wife. I think you don't go there because deep down you still want both. You start looking at your wife the same way you look at your fancy woman and your problem is solved, you won't want your fancy woman any more. But that takes willpower, you need to throw childish self-gratification away and find value in what endures. That's why you got married, or that should be why you got married.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

TCx said:


> I can see how this perception is so attractive. That the other person intentionally set out to hurt you and so it's all their fault. It's a very simple and comforting way of looking at things and assigning blame.
> 
> Granted, the obvious retort is "I can see how your denial is so attractive, so that you don't have to admit that you intentionally did something so evil".


My argument here is that a person knows when they meet someone or spend time with them whether they are attracted to them or not. You can argue the chemical argument all you want. But at the end of the day that wild chemical process didn't start out like that when you first met the OW. YOU perpetuated it, whether you went out and decided to have an A or whether you just happened to meet someone you were attracted to. You could have made that situation different by acknowledging the attraction and taking steps to curb it. But you didn't. You fed a situation and made it into what it was.

I meet people I find attractive where I can tell the feeling is mutual. I could easily find reasons to meet up and conversate, talk to them about personal stuff, arrange to meet them to spend time together, get their number to text them in the evening, and so on. But I am a sensible human being with a basic awareness of the expectations of my monogamous relationship over and above any chemical processes going on when I realise I am attracted to someone. I am fully aware that indulging that attraction will lead to something harmful to my relationship. Thus I make a choice. So what happened IS your fault whether you set out to do it or not. You still chose to do it.


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## ilovechocolate (Jan 16, 2012)

My argument here is that a person knows when they meet someone or spend time with them whether they are attracted to them or not. You can argue the chemical argument all you want. But at the end of the day that wild chemical process didn't start out like that when you first met the OW. YOU perpetuated it, whether you went out and decided to have an A or whether you just happened to meet someone you were attracted to. You could have made that situation different by acknowledging the attraction and taking steps to curb it. But you didn't. You fed a situation and made it into what it was.

I meet people I find attractive where I can tell the feeling is mutual. I could easily find reasons to meet up and conversate, talk to them about personal stuff, arrange to meet them to spend time together, get their number to text them in the evening, and so on. But I am a sensible human being with a basic awareness of the expectations of my monogamous relationship over and above any chemical processes going on when I realise I am attracted to someone. I am fully aware that indulging that attraction will lead to something harmful to my relationship. Thus I make a choice. So what happened IS your fault whether you set out to do it or not. You still chose to do it.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


And there the lies the difference - we all have choices and things that tempt us - blaming outside forces or bleating on about chemical reactions cuts no slack ! Black or White it comes down to doing right or doing wrong


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## Dexter Morgan (Dec 8, 2011)

tobio said:


> My OH did something that bothered me the other day that triggered what happened with the OW (I found him in a mild EA that got cut off before it developed.)
> 
> I was quite to-the-point and logical - ie "when you do x it reminds me of y, I find it hurtful, please don't continue to do it."
> 
> He got defensive and when he was talking said that I "probably don't believe it but sometimes the person who did the bad thing feels worse than the person who had it done to them."


Thats good if he truly is hurting because of the pain he has caused.

But too many times I hear the stories from WS's on forums that they are in pain, not really because of the hurt they put on their spouse, but because they are hurting because the had to give up their affair partner.

Not saying this is the case with your husband. You'll have to decide if he is genuine when he says it. Is there anything he says, or the way he says it that makes you think he is being truthful and he is hurting because of what he has done to you?


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## NatashaYurino (Jan 2, 2012)

I guess the answer to this question is really tough to find. 

They are two types of pain. I guess the cheaters do feel bad for the choices they made. Maybe when the affair or ONS was happening they weren't thinking right, but afterwards they probably felt horrible for what they did. 

I can only wonder what it feels like to have to know your marriage/relationship might be at the verge of destruction and it's all you fault. One simple choice and it wouldn't be happening.

But like I said to the betrayed spouse/SO the pain is also extremely hard to cope with. When my SO told he cheated on me, it hurted so much I wished I could just close my eyes and escape that world and never come back.

Like I said they are two different kinds of pain. Maybe they both hurt to the max in their own manner.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I have no doubt my OH is genuine about feeling like that. He doesn't say much so I can only assume it is the guilt, remorse and what Natasha mentioned above about looking at your relationship on the verge of destruction and knowing it is your fault. We have had rough patches where I found things difficult to believe I could ever deal with and I knew he was upset knowing that no matter how much he regretted what he did, it would not make me feel better.

I suppose I should in a strange way be pleased he feels like that because he is obviously regretful. I don't doubt his sincerity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

I think the cheater does "sometimes" feel pain (AFTER) they realize how much the BS is actually affected..... but I also think their pain "could" be just for the mere fact of getting caught and their embarrassment of their friends and family finding out what scum they are............... Just an opinion


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

lascarx said:


> You just made my point for me. The affair hormone argument nonsense is nonsense precisely because it is so minimal in the scale of things.


No, I simply made the point that you are minimizing it and you are doing so from a lack of context. You will never understand what it's like until you've been here, just like I'll never understand what it's like until I've been over there. 

But having said that, a drug addiction can also be overcome with willpower alone. I've seen it happen; people who've quit cold turkey for one reason or another (usually out of fear of a bad experience). Sometimes people need the help of others around them, sometimes they don't, and sometimes they never get out of the hole.

But if you truly have worked with people who are addicted to drugs, you know that it's not a judgmental kick in the face that will get them off the habit; it's hard work on the addicts part and the understanding of those around them.



> Friend, were you born on a flying saucer? You marry one woman, you play around with another, in our society that is a clear transgression of the moral contract. Are you telling me you didn't know you were doing wrong?


How about the choice to avoid talking to each other? How about the choice to not empathize with our OH (from either side)? How about the choice not to learn everything that we could about what makes a successful marriage before we go into it?

Or do you not see your lack of effort in any of these areas before your marriage imploded as a choice? A choice by omission is still a choice. Friend, there is blame-a-plenty to go around but you don't seem to acknowledge that. It's all on the WS shoulders and I'm sorry but that's just not right.

I am not denying that the choice to cheat is wrong because of the hurt that it causes the BS. But I'm also not denying that there are probably more things involved in a marriage that leads to cheating than a "lack of moral character".

Well, that's not entirely true. In another thread you said something along the lines of, 'I contributed to the problems in our marriage but I did not make the decision to cheat'. What you seem to really be saying is, "there is no valid reason for her to have hurt/disrespect me like this". And yet if I were to take all of the posts that I've seen from you I am lead to believe that you lack the ability to empathize or that you've ritualized your viewpoint on this. (if you put a chair out and only feed a gorilla when they stand on the chair it becomes ritualistic behavior to the point where if you put another gorilla into the cage they learn that ritualistic behavior from the first gorilla and so will all subsequent additions to the cage, even if you remove the original gorilla).

So, did you never hurt your WS in your relationship? What choices did you make that hurt her? What gave you the right to do those things to her? And why is her pain any less relevant than your own? What choices did you [not?] make that helped cause the divide in your marriage? Maybe you truly are perfect and maybe your OH really is just the devil incarnate; I don't know.

I am not saying that there has to be a reason for a WS to cheat. Sometimes people truly do lack any ability to feel remorse or empathy at all and sometimes people simply don't see the wrong in having a little bit of fun. But again, ~50% of the population will cheat at some point in their lifetime. So you can either blindly accept that 50% of the people on this planet are amoral and lack the ability empathize or you hide from the fact that life is a more complex thing than what you are selling yourself.



> Sure it does. It's a matter of reaching a decision, fancy woman or wife. I think you don't go there because deep down you still want both. You start looking at your wife the same way you look at your fancy woman and your problem is solved, you won't want your fancy woman any more. But that takes willpower, you need to throw childish self-gratification away and find value in what endures. That's why you got married, or that should be why you got married.


Sorry but I have to disagree here. If I am to follow your adherence to a moral absolute then I'd imagine what you meant to say was "If you're not happy in your marriage, fix it. If you can't then divorce. Only then can you go looking for a fancy new woman".

And I don't disagree with this either. Having learned what I've learned from my own experience, I agree that's probably the right thing to do. But again, not everyone has the tools to fix their marriage or even to identify what needs fixing in their marriage. And how many of us manly men would ever consider counseling unless something drastic occurs to make us go to it?

Did you really think your marriage was perfect before it imploded? Or are you like my friend who, being a verbally abusive control freak, positively refuses to accept that she had any input into her husband cheating? She says, and I quote, "I was perfect! He had no reason to do this to me!" And no matter how many times you tell her that she most certainly was not perfect and that she was abusive and controlling and wore away his self esteem and will to live, she just doesn't see it. Her OH was a beaten man and she'd done that to him. She took his self esteem and whittled away at it at every turn and you could see it when you talked to him. She had literally consumed his soul.

Note: I am not implying that you are an abusive control freak. I'm simply asking you if there are maybe some things about your situation that you can't/won't accept or maybe that these kinds of situations exist with other relationships. Sure, my friend's OH wasn't right in cheating but I don't see him as having the right tools to get himself out of an abusive situation on his own.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> My argument here is that a person knows when they meet someone or spend time with them whether they are attracted to them or not. You can argue the chemical argument all you want. But at the end of the day that wild chemical process didn't start out like that when you first met the OW. YOU perpetuated it, whether you went out and decided to have an A or whether you just happened to meet someone you were attracted to. You could have made that situation different by acknowledging the attraction and taking steps to curb it. But you didn't. You fed a situation and made it into what it was.


Actually, at first I thought that the attraction was harmless and didn't pay any real attention to it. I've been attracted to other women before and didn't fall for them. I'll be more wary from now on but it was a lesson to learn.

So no, I didn't take steps to curb it because I didn't see anything coming from it in the first place. She was just a really good friend and by the time I knew what was going on the chemicals were already there. I didn't realize just how addicted to her presence I was until she was gone because when she was around, everything just felt so right.

Like most people, I don't question situations that feel right. I only question them when they feel wrong.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

TCx said:


> Actually, at first I thought that the attraction was harmless and didn't pay any real attention to it. I've been attracted to other women before and didn't fall for them. I'll be more wary from now on but it was a lesson to learn.
> 
> So no, I didn't take steps to curb it because I didn't see anything coming from it in the first place. She was just a really good friend and by the time I knew what was going on the chemicals were already there. I didn't realize just how addicted to her presence I was until she was gone because when she was around, everything just felt so right.
> 
> Like most people, I don't question situations that feel right. I only question them when they feel wrong.


Very honest. I find that interesting in relation to what happened with my OH. In his case he met a girl on a job at work. He was only there for four weeks. She was very blatant about liking him. He liked the attention and I actually knew all about that; what I didn't realise was that the feeling was reciprocated. I didn't realuse he considered them to be "friends" either.

Of course it wasn't friendship but that's how he compartmentalised his actions. I genuinely think he was in denial: it took him months to understand that it was not a friendship and why his actions were not those of simply a friend. I think like you he was blindsided, she made a move, they kissed and he was like, ****, I wasn't planning for THAT to happen. He also told himself it was okay because it wasn't like they were secretly seeing each other, or having a PA... It's funny how people rationalise.

So thankyou as that was interesting to hear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Back to the beginning, I would say it would be wonderful if true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

i don't think you can compare the two. they're not even in the same ballpark.


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## Anaphylactic (Feb 19, 2012)

tobio said:


> My OH did something that bothered me the other day that triggered what happened with the OW (I found him in a mild EA that got cut off before it developed.)
> 
> I was quite to-the-point and logical - ie "when you do x it reminds me of y, I find it hurtful, please don't continue to do it."
> 
> ...


It may be true the cheater feels just as bad as the hurt one. But I, being cheated on recently, can't imagine that my husband can even come close to what I feel inside because of his cheating as well as his behavior while responding to my cries to be understood. I needed compassion and all he gave (mostly) was selfish answers because he "said" he was just as hurt at what he did. Sometimes I don't buy it. Sometimes I believe him because of his actions. Mostly though I think he wants me to forget about it so he will say ANYTHING to get my anger simmered down enough to "feel for his pain" RRRRrrrrrrr 
Hope that answered or helped a bit.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> Of course it wasn't friendship but that's how he compartmentalised his actions. I genuinely think he was in denial: it took him months to understand that it was not a friendship and why his actions were not those of simply a friend.


Yeah, this rings true with me also. When I first met my OW, she was just a colleague and she was all about professional boundaries, but she was also quite friendly and outgoing. We became friends and started trading texts on weekends and progressively touched on more personal subjects. The big thing with us was that we always traveled together, ate together, etc; that was the pattern and it was easy to maintain.

I actually remember the moment when I realized that *I* viewed her as more than a friend though; I can literally see that moment play out in my head. Months into our friendship, we were on the train together and she did something completely benign and something in me just kinda stopped and I remember thinking, "God she really is amazing". It was shortly after that that I stopped sleeping and I started thinking about her and what I liked about her; her personal strength of character, her view of the world, her proactive nature, she had a diverse pallet, she loved to travel the world (like me), she was good at saving money which showed a sense of discipline and responsibility; my only complaint about her is that she avoids conflict. The thing that I remember most though was that she would call me on things when I was being dumb/arrogant/silly/whatever. She had enough insight into me to know what I was thinking and that made me want to not disappoint her; I truly did try to be a better person so that I wouldn't disappoint her (corny/cliche, I know). I started wishing that my wife was more like 'her'. That's when the conflict truly began.

It was at that point that I think lascarx would say (and not to put words into his mouth) that I made the 'choice' to 'cheat' because I didn't remove myself from the situation and to be fair, the thought never even crossed my mind because "she isn't interested; just a friend/colleague" so it was okay; "focus on the work". And both of us were critical to the work at hand and we couldn't have left even if we wanted to. But I did start flirting more and trying to spend more time with her and that's when the denial really started. It was okay, because...

"She's not interested, she just wants to be a friend/colleague."

When I look back now, I can see the progression. Her body language started to change and her behavior became more erratic and confused. She was showing me the classic signs but I ignored them.

"She's not interested, she just wants to be a friend/colleague."

Body language said 'yes', little comments that hinted at 'yes', she stopped sleeping also and she started looking at me differently and was spending more time with me proactively, taking a different train home because that was the one I took, that kind of stuff. 

"She's not interested, she just wants to be a friend/colleague."

But when someone asked if she and I were b/gf she instantly said, "no".

"She's not interested, she just wants to be a friend/colleague."

Because of the long hours and no sleep I remember going home and feeling like I was on an alien planet. I just wasn't home anymore and my home was out on the the road. And then, one day I was riding the train home, looking out the window, when the song "Endless Dream" by Conjure One came on and I just started crying (as it turns out, that whole album is about leaving your partner for someone else, except the album has a happy ending).

That was when I started looking at leaving my W. Home wasn't home anymore and life on the road was intoxicating. I remember saying, even then, "I have been miserable for years and I can't take this anymore. I have no idea if she's even remotely interested in me but if she is then nothing will ever happen with her while I'm married. If she isn't then I can find someone who does love me". This is all basically the prequel to #1 in my thread.



tobio said:


> I think like you he was blindsided, she made a move, they kissed and he was like, ****, I wasn't planning for THAT to happen.


So, I wouldn't say I was blindsided so much as I had a mantra "we're just friends/colleagues; nothing will ever happen". And when I did finally decide to try to leave (and failed) and the next day with her breakup finalized and then her physical intentions becoming crystal clear (which I won't deny having left the door open to), that's what blindsided me. 

"She's not interested" collapsed in my face and it became "oh ****, if I do this I will lose my daughter!" There was no longer any confusion. I finally saw what was happening and because I was already spinning emotionally, I just folded like a house of cards; it was too much for me to absorb and process in just a couple of days. Hell, it's taken me months to absorb it all, though I think alot of that was because two other freight trains had hit me shortly after my meltdown with her that basically destroyed the remaining two pillars in my life; everything was under attack: family, finances, friends, my career and after I came onto TAM, even my self esteem.

_So back to the question at hand... "Does the cheater feel worse than the cheated?"_

In my marriage it seems like that's been the case. My wife has told me to "just get over it" and to forgive myself or she and I will never get past it. My wife could just be in denial but I don't think so. I think she sees the marital status that lead up to it and feels a degree of regret herself because I'd been trying to fix things in our marriage for so long but she wasn't responding.

Either way, I don't care. There is plenty enough pain to go around. Why does it have to be a contest?

So is your OH in pain? Yes, he probably is. Are you? Clearly. His self esteem is probably hurting because of the guilt. But him saying that the cheater feels worse than the cheated is presumptuous and it's born out of ignorance. He's probably not on TAM so he hasn't seen the BS camp pour their pain and anger out at him.

I am sure he'd rather that everyone just forget about it, because it is painful for him; he wants to hide from it. And I've seen what happens when you don't deal with this and hit the WS over the head with 'it' repeatedly; they eventually stop feeling guilty and get angry because they get over it.

But then I think that the BS saying that they hurt worse than the WS is also presumptuous; every situation is different. With the exception of an remorseful spouse (like lascarx stbxw), I think there is gobs of pain to go around and saying that one is hurt worse than the other turns it into a contest and it shouldn't be. It should be about talking your way through it and supporting each other to get through it.



tobio said:


> He also told himself it was okay because it wasn't like they were secretly seeing each other, or having a PA... It's funny how people rationalise.


And yet it's not all that funny or even that suprising. Until I had my meltdown and started researching what i was going through, I'd never even heard of an EA, nor did I even think such a construct could exist. To me, people just fell in love. The very idea of avoiding that kind of situation was preposterous because I was never going to cheat on my wife. And yet, to me, the only way to cheat on my W would be via a PA. No sex = no cheating.

And I have always had female friends that were "just friends"; throughout my entire life actually. So I saw nothing wrong with being her friend; it was nothing new to me. I had been attracted to some of them before and if I got the 'not interested' vibe, I was perfectly okay with that; I could compartmentalize. Some of those friends, in the past, have turned into more than just friends but with the exception of one of them, they always stayed as friends when things didn't work out because we always talked things through. It is important to me, as a person, to talk through stuff like this because that has always worked for me in the past (which is why my OW going NC on me was so difficult for me; her actions defied reason and personal experience).

This whole thing has given me an interesting perspective though. I always used to wonder why movie stars end up as serial divorcees; now I know. 

I have always said that you can't spend an appreciable amount of time with someone without becoming invested in them. But I'd always envisaged that as friends or enemies. I'd never envisaged that the emotional connection could be so potent.

As and aside, I am now glad that I had my EA and that I'm glad it didn't turn into a PA. Now that I'm through the worst of the pain on my side, I can go about the business of fixing all of the things that are wrong with my marriage and the rest of our life together. If it hadn't happened, my W and I would have been stuck in the same pattern for years to come and we'd eventually have had one of those very messy divorces that I have seen others endure and our daughter would have suffered for it.

At least now we're in counseling and are actually talking through our issues with each other. There's still no decision to stay together or divorce but we're finally being adults about it. IMHO, knowing what I know now, an affair is never a good thing exclusively because of the pain that it causes. 

But provided that each person can heal themselves I think that it can be a positive thing in the long term; if not for the current marriage then certainly for the people that were involved in the marriage before hand. Life is about learning from our experiences.

Out of curiosity tobio, have you two done MC? One observation that I've made about our MC sessions is that the EA has only ever come up in passing. The counselor is focusing more on 'us' as a couple rather than the EA. Part of that is because that seems to be what the two of us want to talk about but even during the times that we've mentioned the EA the counselor has steered us away from that conversation. I wonder if we'll deal with that in more depth once she's built the bond of trust with the two of us or not but it's been an interesting process to observe.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I too 100 % agree this crap that an affair is an addiction like hard core drugs. 

Unless one has lived in the hard core drug world, helped the hard core drug world, or in the hard core drug world themselves, they have no idea how the two worlds don’t even compare .

I like to ask the BS's who crossed the line themselves ... did it balance the playing field, hurt the playing field or made more of an understanding in the playing field? ...as in he had his affair, she had hers, now let’s go on ? 

~sammy


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

sammy3 said:


> I too 100 % agree this crap that an affair is an addiction like hard core drugs. Unless one has lived in the hard core drug world, helped the hard core drug world, or in the hard core drug world themselves, they have no idea how the two worlds don’t even compare.


C'mon people stop being so literal. The addiction comparison is used to give context to a situation to people who've not been there. Just like most people have not had to help others through hard drug addiction.

No, it is not "exactly" like doing heroine or crack or meth. But it is an addiction and a powerful motivator.

Do you see me complaining when a BS tells me that it the betrayal feels like a nuclear explosion going off in their head? I've never survived a nuke but I'm remarkably sure that it's nothing like the energy released from a fission reaction.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> In another thread you said something along the lines of, 'I contributed to the problems in our marriage but I did not make the decision to cheat'.


I don't recall ever saying I contributed to our marriage problems, since I don't ever recall there being any marriage problems in particular. Now in hindsight, it turns out there was no marriage worth the name, so maybe it was a swamp of problems, who knows.




TCx said:


> And why is her pain any less relevant than your own?


She has no pain, at least not as far as our marriage or her cheating is concerned. The only thing that bugs her is the possibility of her name being smeared, which I don't plan to have any part in doing anyway. In any case, looks like she's moving away to start fresh in a new place, if you get what I mean.




TCx said:


> It was at that point that I think lascarx would say (and not to put words into his mouth) that I made the 'choice' to 'cheat'


You got it. You found a woman you liked better than your wife and you didn't clamp down on yourself as you should have. Like it or not, that's a choice.




TCx said:


> With the exception of an remorseful spouse (like lascarx stbxw),


She isn't remorseful. I'll never know what goes on in her head but it has nothing to do with any notion of having done wrong to me or what was once our family.




TCx said:


> My wife has told me to "just get over it" and to forgive myself or she and I will never get past it. My wife could just be in denial but I don't think so. I think she sees the marital status that lead up to it and feels a degree of regret herself because I'd been trying to fix things in our marriage for so long but she wasn't responding.


And this is the crux of it. Your situation sounds just dandy for you, of course. Your error is in assuming that just because your situation allows you to feel that you're not-quite-so-wayward and that your wife is not-quite-so-betrayed, that what you're getting out of all of this somehow all applies equally to the rest of us. It doesn't.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

ilovechocolate said:


> My argument here is that a person knows when they meet someone or spend time with them whether they are attracted to them or not. You can argue the chemical argument all you want. But at the end of the day that wild chemical process didn't start out like that when you first met the OW. YOU perpetuated it, whether you went out and decided to have an A or whether you just happened to meet someone you were attracted to. You could have made that situation different by acknowledging the attraction and taking steps to curb it. But you didn't. You fed a situation and made it into what it was.
> 
> I meet people I find attractive where I can tell the feeling is mutual. I could easily find reasons to meet up and conversate, talk to them about personal stuff, arrange to meet them to spend time together, get their number to text them in the evening, and so on. But I am a sensible human being with a basic awareness of the expectations of my monogamous relationship over and above any chemical processes going on when I realise I am attracted to someone. I am fully aware that indulging that attraction will lead to something harmful to my relationship. Thus I make a choice. So what happened IS your fault whether you set out to do it or not. You still chose to do it.
> 
> ...



*
Amen!! Amen!! Amen!!*


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

WS's always want to know how to help the BS cope with their pain because they have no concept of how terrible it feels.The cheater is more about the shame,especially initially,but that is really fear driven.JMO


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

TCx said:


> Yeah, this rings true with me also. When I first met my OW, she was just a colleague and she was all about professional boundaries, but she was also quite friendly and outgoing. We became friends and started trading texts on weekends and progressively touched on more personal subjects. The big thing with us was that we always traveled together, ate together, etc; that was the pattern and it was easy to maintain.
> 
> I actually remember the moment when I realized that *I* viewed her as more than a friend though; I can literally see that moment play out in my head. Months into our friendship, we were on the train together and she did something completely benign and something in me just kinda stopped and I remember thinking, "God she really is amazing". It was shortly after that that I stopped sleeping and I started thinking about her and what I liked about her; her personal strength of character, her view of the world, her proactive nature, she had a diverse pallet, she loved to travel the world (like me), she was good at saving money which showed a sense of discipline and responsibility; my only complaint about her is that she avoids conflict. The thing that I remember most though was that she would call me on things when I was being dumb/arrogant/silly/whatever. She had enough insight into me to know what I was thinking and that made me want to not disappoint her; I truly did try to be a better person so that I wouldn't disappoint her (corny/cliche, I know). I started wishing that my wife was more like 'her'. That's when the conflict truly began.
> 
> ...


Interesting post. What you say about what you liked about her: I don't know how much I'd want to know from my OH about her, or when he realised he "liked" her.

Thinking about it, he's never said much in much detail. Tbh it's quite hard to think about without getting upset. The stuff I found out after hurt because at the time I had no idea what he had been thinking. He played it out completely like she was this verging-on-stalkerish woman who he got teased about because she very obviously fancied him. So I knew all about what she had been saying about him, what she had been doing. He just neglected to tell me in his rundown of the day every day when he got home how HE felt and what he'd been doing.

I found out later he'd told people at work that he liked her, he got wind of it and asked him to meet her on his last day there to "say goodbye." To me it was screamingly obvious what her intentions were. He maintains the thought she might make a move on him never crossed his mind although he said he did notice when he went in the room that, " she was all made up and dressed nicely and I did wonder why." 

I know he found her attractive. He said he liked that they had a lot of things in common: one of the things people have ALWAYS said about us two is how different we are. Which we are. What he has always said is that it was NEVER about me, not about anything to do with anything I was or was not doing or any "fault" on my part. He always said I was fine as I am and he didn't want me to change.

That was a MAJOR thing I struggled with for ages. I could not wrap my head around WHY he would look elsewhere if there was NOTHING wrong with us. It hit my self-esteem for six and truth be told I still struggle now. Before all this I can admit I was certainly not model material with a perfect body but I was good and happy with how I looked. I was also not a jealous person at all. I am very different now. I struggle with a feeling of being "second best." I question my physical attractiveness in comparison to other women. I also hate being around other women because I am so acutely aware now of how guys notice other women and how women notice him. But most of all I struggle with having these feelings and knowing it is through NOTHING I have done but because of him.

I saw a thread the other day on here where someone explained what it was like to be the BS where they said it was like the WS had died. Sometimes even now I look at him and wonder who he is: the person from before who was honest to the point of being tactless, or the one who told lies, hid stuff and acted like someone completely different. It was like an alien took over his body for a while there. This I know he struggles with. I just don't think he can ever genuinely comprehend how the betrayal "invades" your life to such a degree that everything looks different.

Like, all the times I asked him something and he told me. Was he lying? Something I just asked him, is he telling the truth? Or lying like he did? How do I know: I didn't when he was lying before? Am I being paranoid? Am I being unreasonable?

What does he get in that exchange? To him, I have asked him a seemingly innocent question like, "how come you were late home from work baby?" He replies, "the traffic was bad," and to him: that is it.

I buy a new outfit for a night out. I try it on and ask him what he thinks. "You look great baby!" What am I thinking? Does he mean it? Is he lying again? Did she have a better body than me? Is she thinking she has a better body than me? She's more athletic than me, she must have a better body, if he liked her he must have liked her more to potentially ruin our relationship.

What does he get in that exchange? To him, I've tried on a dress and look nice in it. He says that. To him, that is it. He's not feeling bad out of it.

When does he feel bad and what does he feel? He feels guilty. Guilt is a selfish emotion. I know he feels remorseful but that only ever comes out when he sees me upset from something that is a result of what he did. I don't honestly know if it consumes his life like it did mine but I doubt it very much.

We have done counselling. It was there we established he had piss poor boundaries. We spoke about what happened a lot: it felt like my safe place to offload as we had some scary arguments at home. 

We established also my main "concern" was to feel "on the radar." To see that I was important in his life. To know he spoke affectionately of me when I wasn't there. To make my presence in his life known to would-be female aggressors  He understands this now.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

My wife seems to have had some residue of remorse for our marriage, but not enough to curb her need to spread her legs for other men.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Tobio 
Would it help if you exercised and lost weight? That can give your self esteem a big bost. 

Also dress to show off your assets. Have your make-up done at a department store and follow the instructions. 

We eat a low glycemic index diet. It is easy to follow and includes all of the food groups. The only things eliminated are concentrated sweets, soft drinks and some fruit, white rice, white bread and white potatoes. 

I make bread in a machine with King Arthur high fiber flour which is easy to do. There are low glycemic index pastas, Dreamfields. Get from Amazon if you can't find locally. 

Finally, getting noticed by men is partly looks and partly the way you carry yourself. If you feel unattractive, you hide by walking hunched up and dressing unattractively. But with self confidence you walk up right, put the girls out there show the shape of your azzz. 

Even beatiful women can hide and ugly woman get a 2nd look. 

There are many web sites on low glycemic index diet as well as books. 

Don't say you are too busy take some time for you, that is just as important as what you do for your family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

TCx said:


> C'mon people stop being so literal. The addiction comparison is used to give context to a situation to people who've not been there. Just like most people have not had to help others through hard drug addiction.
> 
> No, it is not "exactly" like doing heroine or crack or meth. But it is an addiction and a powerful motivator.
> 
> Do you see me complaining when a BS tells me that it the betrayal feels like a nuclear explosion going off in their head? I've never survived a nuke but I'm remarkably sure that it's nothing like the energy released from a fission reaction.


I understand, but people just use it as an excuse too freely ... 

~sammy


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

sammy3 said:


> I understand, but people just use it as an excuse too freely ...


Understood but had I not read about what was going through my head as an 'addict' I would have chased after 'her' with all guns blazing because she was constantly in my thoughts and it hurt not to be around her.

It sounds all well and good to say that you've been there with some other woman but it's a different kettle of fish when when you're sleeping next to the woman that you're married to and thinking of someone else. At least for me, that did something pretty aweful to my head.

@Tobio - can you please elaborate on how you see guilt is a selfish emotion? Are you confusing guilt with the desire to be forgiven? Seeking absolution is selfish, but the guilt that you feel over the action doesn't strike me as selfish.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> That was a MAJOR thing I struggled with for ages. I could not wrap my head around WHY he would look elsewhere if there was NOTHING wrong with us. It hit my self-esteem for six and truth be told I still struggle now.


There might not have been anything wrong with you; there could have been something wrong with him. Perhaps he was bored or in a lull in life. Mid-life crisis kicking in, etc. Maybe he'd never been with a woman like her and was looking to experiment. Maybe he viewed it as harmless fun? Who knows. Depending on how capable he is of being honest with himself, he might not even know. And it could be exactly what he said it was, that he had no idea what was going on. *shrug*



tobio said:


> Like, all the times I asked him something and he told me. Was he lying? Something I just asked him, is he telling the truth? Or lying like he did? How do I know: I didn't when he was lying before? Am I being paranoid? Am I being unreasonable?


To quote House, everybody lies. I've no doubt that you both have 'massaged' the truth during your relationship to make the other feel better or less worse. But IMHO, we tend to ignore those little transgressions because we want to and because we know that the person talking to us loves us; that's enough.

Do you think he finds you attractive? Do you honestly think that you are the only woman in the world that he will find attractive?

Does he love you and has he committed to you? If so, why would it matter how you compare against other women? Do you secretly think he still wants someone else? The answer should not surprise you; he might have a passing fantasy about that "hot blonde" (or whatever) but he's always done that, that's hardwired into "us" men.

What it sounds like has changed is that you're now keenly aware of it and are worried that he might act on it again? "He's done it once so..."?

In terms of lying, let me ask you this; did he used to point women out before and say, "Hey honey, look, she's cute." He might have to tease you but he probably didn't do it often. That desire to look has always been there but he's probably always toned it down/hidden it from you. Do you consider that lying? In a manner of speaking, I guess it is, but it is what we do and we "lie" about it, not because we're scum (well, we are), but because we want you to feel like you're special to us.

So is that such a bad thing?


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Tobio
> Would it help if you exercised and lost weight? That can give your self esteem a big bost.
> 
> Also dress to show off your assets. Have your make-up done at a department store and follow the instructions.
> ...


Catherine

I will recount an exchange we had at counselling.

We were talking about what he could do in supporting me to rebuild my self-esteem. I said how I felt ugly. Not pretty or attractive. TO HIM. I said if I were single and looking to date I would have no problems at all confidence-wise. I feel I am very attractive. I have a great figure: you would not believe the amount of people who do not believe I have four young children. One of the trainers at the gym didn't believe me, he thought I was kidding him. One of the new girls at one of my gym classes thought I was her age the other week: she is 21. I am... A handful of years over 30  

The point was, any feelings of inadequacy I have are only in relation to him and how he feels about me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

TCx said:


> There might not have been anything wrong with you; there could have been something wrong with him. Perhaps he was bored or in a lull in life. Mid-life crisis kicking in, etc. Maybe he'd never been with a woman like her and was looking to experiment. Maybe he viewed it as harmless fun? Who knows. Depending on how capable he is of being honest with himself, he might not even know. And it could be exactly what he said it was, that he had no idea what was going on. *shrug*


We established that it was a mix of stuff. Poor boundaries: he never intended anything physical to happen but never clearly relayed this to the OW. Because of the next factor: the ego massage. He liked that she liked him, a young attractive forward woman. All his colleagues liked her but she was only interested in him. He liked being found attractive. Who wouldn't? So he perpetuated the situation to carry on the ego massage.

The other factor: problems at home. I have discussed before that he gained an "instant family" when we got serious. He has always found it hard to adjust to being a stepfather-type figure. Also he hates his job, money is tight, the usual family-type issues that there was no getting away from. Until he met her. All of a sudden he could bask in this attention, this departure from everyday life where he didn't have to think about screaming kids, paying bills and giving me attention when all he wanted to do was kick back with a beer. An escape rather than dealing with what he had in front of him.





> To quote House, everybody lies. I've no doubt that you both have 'massaged' the truth during your relationship to make the other feel better or less worse. But IMHO, we tend to ignore those little transgressions because we want to and because we know that the person talking to us loves us; that's enough.
> 
> Do you think he finds you attractive? Do you honestly think that you are the only woman in the world that he will find attractive?
> 
> ...


Yes. Once the line has been crossed I guess you know they are capable not just of thinking about it but actually doing it.



> In terms of lying, let me ask you this; did he used to point women out before and say, "Hey honey, look, she's cute." He might have to tease you but he probably didn't do it often. That desire to look has always been there but he's probably always toned it down/hidden it from you. Do you consider that lying? In a manner of speaking, I guess it is, but it is what we do and we "lie" about it, not because we're scum (well, we are), but because we want you to feel like you're special to us.
> 
> So is that such a bad thing?


We used to point out other people to each other. Like, if I saw a cute petite brunette with short hair I'd say, I bet you like her! He'd reply yeah or she's okay or not really. Likewise he'd see some tall, dark guy and say, oh I bet he's just your type isn't he? I always noticed if he checked out other women. It didn't bother me. Sometimes I'd joke, I can stop the car if you want to get out for a closer look! 

Now? The same situation brings a different response. I feel very insecure. I don't want to joke about it. I joked with him about that girl liking him. Foolish me. I know he looks but now I look away. I ignore it because it is very painful. It carries a different meaning now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dexter Morgan (Dec 8, 2011)

TBT said:


> WS's always want to know how to help the BS cope with their pain


I disagree. Not ALL WS's care about helping their BS cope. Alot of them are too wrapped up in mourning the loss of their affair partner and simply want their BS to just get over it so they don't have to deal with any fallout.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

Yeah WSs want the BS to get over it when they can't get over it themselves.....how ironic!


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

TCx said:


> Understood but had I not read about what was going through my head as an 'addict' I would have chased after 'her' with all guns blazing because she was constantly in my thoughts and it hurt not to be around her.
> 
> It sounds all well and good to say that you've been there with some other woman but it's a different kettle of fish when when you're sleeping next to the woman that you're married to and thinking of someone else. At least for me, that did something pretty aweful to my head.
> 
> @Tobio - can you please elaborate on how you see guilt is a selfish emotion? Are you confusing guilt with the desire to be forgiven? Seeking absolution is selfish, but the guilt that you feel over the action doesn't strike me as selfish.


The guilt... IIRC Affaircare on here has some great posts about the difference between guilt and remorse. The gist of it is thus. Guilt is about yourself. It is selfish because you feel bad for yourself. I guess it is a pain you feel that makes your own self feel bad.

Remorse however is an unselfish guilt, if you like. Remorse is the pain and sorrow you feel for causing another person's pain. A sorrow.

I don't think that is the best way to describe it so I'll see if I can dig out some of Affaircare's wise words later when it isn't carnage at tea time at my house 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

tobio said:


> Remorse however is an unselfish guilt, if you like. Remorse is the pain and sorrow you feel for causing another person's pain. A sorrow.


I don't want to be a semantic diplomat but...

Rubbish. Remorse is a deep form of guilt; they are synonyms. 

I think you are confusing 'guilt' with 'shame' (and that seems to be a common misconception).

Guilt is guilt. It is a negative emotional response to doing something that the 'guilty' feels was not right. They have performed an action that has caused harm of some kind, be that breaking the law (even if it was just running a stop sign) or whether they have caused someone else emotional distress. But the foundation of 'guilt' is 'empathy'. Without the latter, you cannot have the former.

This is why psychopaths do not feel guilt. Because they do not empathize they do not feel the emotional stress/pain associated with their actions. Ergo - they feel no guilt.

So yeah, shame is selfish because it is pain that is associated with how others view the shameful. Guilt is guilt and it is in no way selfish.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm sorry Tobio, I don't want to be a pain but you didn't answer my question....



TCx said:


> Does he love you and has he committed to you? If so, why would it matter how you compare against other women? Do you secretly think he still wants someone else?


Do you think you're not good enough for him?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

TCx said:


> Guilt is guilt and it is in no way selfish.


I agree. Good post, btw.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Dexter Morgan said:


> I disagree. Not ALL WS's care about helping their BS cope. Alot of them are too wrapped up in mourning the loss of their affair partner and simply want their BS to just get over it so they don't have to deal with any fallout.


I agree with your disagreement.I should have clarified myself better.I was referring to waywards who are truly remorseful,take full responsibility for what they've done,and are willing to put every effort possible on their part to save their marriage.


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

TCx said:


> And yet if I were to take all of the posts that I've seen from you I am lead to believe that you lack the ability to empathize or that you've ritualized your viewpoint on this.


It's an interesting statement, but the underlying fact is pretty simple: I don't empathize with you.

I can easily empathize, and do, with anyone who has painfully found out that something they much treasured was poisoned by falsehood.


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