# Wife's reconsidering us, and has said some awful things. Should I run?



## Clayton33

Hi all
I thought I’d put my story in more of a point form to make it easier to read through and digest quicker. 
Once you’ve read it, you can tell me if there’s any hope to turn this around or whether I should be running away as fast as I can:

Background:

-	Wife is 36, I’m 33. We’ve been married 6 years, and together a total of 10. 
-	We have a beautiful daughter who is 2 years old
-	Around 4 years ago she went through a ‘spell’ of sorts. Told me she’s disillusioned, unfulfilled and was wondering if this is the best thing for her. Of course, this was tough on me. Up to that point things had been good. Luckily things turned around after a couple of months, and she was very much committed again. 
-	About a year after her unfulfilled period we got pregnant with our little one. It was planned.
-	She works in the ad agency environment. I work in corporate. I make about double what she does.
-	Our sex life has never been great. In fact, it has been a source of a good few arguments and friction between us down the years. Traditionally we did it about 3 times month, plus some oral on me in between. But I always wanted want a bit more. Beyond the quantity I always felt she never put the effort in. It was always quite bland and boring. She never professed to like it all that much (although she came every time we had sex). It always felt like obligation for me, and this has always been on my mind. 
-	Despite the sex thing, which we kinda just got along with and kept it up, we do just get along well. We do the parenting thing extremely well. It’s been a loving home. I’ve loved her dearly because she is a good person, and I always thought we had good experiences. 
-	I hate to write this, but right now, I’m probably about an 8 in sexual market value. She’s probably a 7. I’m good looking, successful, in the best shape of my life. She’s also good looking, but hasn’t quite looked after herself as well, and is a woman 3 years older than I am. 

What’s happening now:

-	About 6 months ago, something just clicked in me I guess. I started realizing that it was only ever me putting in the effort to do the little romantic things. 
-	This feeling in me grew, I realized more and more that she’d changed slightly and wasn’t putting effort in. Was it always like this or was I waking up? Not sure. She had become more and more obsessed with career progression and promotions. 
-	When I addressed this, and our lack of intimacy, indicating that I thought we needed to put effort into make it better, it always led to fights. She kept saying how much pressure she always felt under (job, mother, husband, side job, etc). So the discussions never ended well.
-	From December to May, it was just a bad time. But we kept going. I know I might have been unattractive in the process. I think I might have come across as insecure a few times, in trying to work out what was going on with her. Anxiety does this to you. 
-	I did some things I shouldn’t have. I checked her phone twice, and she caught me. My point to her was that she was acting like someone who’s having an affair. She wasn’t pretty sure of it. She’s the kind of person who wouldn’t be able to hide it. I elaborate more below. 
-	After a series of bad fights and me voicing more and more dissatisfaction with the marriage, we agreed we’d separate. What started as 2 weeks turned into 5. I let myself down badly once or twice, sending her angry messages I shouldn’t have. I think my feeling was that I really wanted the family to be together long term, and I couldn’t understand why she couldn’t just fight for us to make it work. 
-	She’s seeing a psychologist, saying she feels unfulfilled, heavy hearted and needing to find what she actually wants in life. I’ve made it clear I want the family together. I didn’t want to raise my daughter in a broken home.
-	In the last week, in the heat of our arguments, she’s told me she never feels like kissing me, and hasn’t for years. She says shevhasn’t wanted to have sex with me for the last 6 months (even though we have done it about 10 times). She even brought up a trip we did to Greece 4 years ago, saying she never wanted to be intimate on holiday (we did, so clearly it was forced). This all makes me feel like I’ve been lied to for years. How can I get over this stuff? It hurts as a man. 
-	She keeps viewing our marriage now in such negative terms in retrospect. Whenever I bring up something that was good about us or good in our past, she’ll turn it into a negative. 
-	She keeps claiming we don’t ‘connect’ and there’s no ‘chemistry’
-	I keep saying she’s just not a high drive sexual person, that this would have happened no matter who she married. She disagrees. (Quite honestly, she’s never been interested in anything sexual, which has always frustrated me)
-	She moved back in 2 days ago. We’re now in separate rooms, and things have calmed to an uneasy place- like we’re walking on eggshells around eachother. I think we’ve both had enough fighting. 
- She's tentatively said she wants to work on us. But without much positivity. Hasn't exactly made me feel good about it. 
-	I’m 99% convinced there is no one else. As I said, I’ve looked at her phone. She drops off the 2 year old and picks her up. There’s literally no time for anything physical. And I honestly think that things have got so bad between us that she would have probably told me if there was someone else. I looked her in the eyes and asked her, and honestly can say there’s no one. What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice. 

So there we go. Am I the idiot for waiting around, and wanting this to turn? I have a family to think of here. I wanted to raise my daughter day to day, and have the happy family, which is why this is hurting so much. 
Is there any chance of this turning and us finding that love and connection again, or is she gone?


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## SunCMars

These things happen. I suspect she is being 100% honest.

There is no chemistry.
She admitted it.

Now, you need to accept that. 
She is not yours, has not been yours' for years.

Find yours'....get a divorce.

I am sure she will find hers....in good time.

Life is short.
Life is wonderful.

Let it be wonderful. 
Let her go.

Kudos on trying to keep this marriage together.



The Typist II-


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## SentHereForAReason

Man, I get tired of reading these because it hits home and these seem all so common place but I don't get tired of trying to help and giving my 2 cents. 

Whether it's an affair or not, the end result is the same. The love/spark/connection is gone in her eyes/heart/soul and how I have seen over the past year with myself and countless stories that echo all the same things, it is downright impossible for them to get that love back, for whatever reason, whether it's someone else or they just have gotten to a point where they gave up.

For all in intents and purposes, I won't sugar coat it. It's over. She has given you all the classic terms and phrases of a woman that is out of love. Even though it doesn't seem plausible to you, it does sound like a person that is involved with someone else or wants to be but again, whether she is a walk away wife or a wayward wife, the END result is the same and it sucks because on our end, we see such an easy path to fix things, to make it better to go forth together but it's just not in them after they have made the decision to move on.

I think many here that will reply after me will probably suspect an affair as well as ALL the warning signs are there but I'm glad you figured out the other part, the amount of stuff and effort you were putting in, without any reciprocation. That's just it, that's the issue. As every counselor, expert and even my lawyers had narrowed the issue down to, when I explained my story over and over again, the most visual way of putting it into my brain was the example by my lawyer. As I had come to the point of having to find legal counsel after catching wind of my STBXW's sneaky motives, my lawyer was taking notes and then she started circling something. She said, you know, all of those things you told me, those aren't really the problems, then she holds up the pad of paper and shows me what she had circled, it was my STBXW's name. She said, THIS is the problem. Something is not right inside of her and no matter what I did, it wouldn't change that. That she was going to have to find out on her own, if she ever does. The problem wasn't the kids, the marriage or anything I had done, it is something that is NOT right with her inside.

I see the same with your wife. Whether it's an affair, a personality disorder or just that she doesn't respect you or desire you, that's on HER, not you but sadly it's also something YOU cannot fix.

What I have learned in my own experience, reading many books, reading these forums and others for a year now. You have to let her go. It seems crazy, it seems to go against everything you believe in but you have to let her go and let her find out on her own and continue to work on yourself and dedicate your life to your daughter. 

I see so much of myself in a lot of these situations and this is not different. My wife was/is having an affair and lied about everything and anything in the process. So much and so believable in her lying to everyone that it was hard to believe that she was. I see my own situation in yours, as in the things your wife is saying, the way she has acted.  The utter lack of interest in intimacy, the amount of effort I was putting into everything but getting very little back and the pure confusion on why it didn't seem right. Even down to the every time we had sex, she had hers thing is spot on with my situation as well. I would say I'm about a 7 or 8, she is probably a solid 6.

I'm sorry man. The path to get her back, which is slim to none at this point and the path to doing what you need to do, is actually the same. It's letting her go and letting her go by maintaining your integrity and being who you really are and want to me.


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## Middle of Everything

I may be reaching here, but your wife sounds like a "never enough" person.

Can have a good life but its never enough.

There are people in life that get to a point and cannot enjoy the life they have. They let the "what ifs" take over their thoughts. Call it midlife crisis, the grass is greener, whatever. 

Hell I could be wrong and you could be at fault. Could have ignored her and werent a good husband. But the quick read over your recap gives me the feeling of a never enough, grass is greener situation.


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## SentHereForAReason

Middle of Everything said:


> I may be reaching here, but your wife sounds like a "never enough" person.
> 
> Can have a good life but its never enough.
> 
> There are people in life that get to a point and cannot enjoy the life they have. They let the "what ifs" take over their thoughts. Call it midlife crisis, the grass is greener, whatever.
> 
> Hell I could be wrong and you could be at fault. Could have ignored her and werent a good husband. But the quick read over your recap gives me the feeling of a never enough, grass is greener situation.


Good point. With my STBXW, she had a great family, new house, great job, supportive husband but it was never enough as well. Just took it all for granted continually. A lot of it I attribute to whatever her deep rooted condition is, whether it be bi-polar, etc.


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## Livvie

It doesn't matter if you "think" you are an 8 in "sexual market value" ( really??) and your wife is a 7. It's subjective. Just because you think you are an 8 does not mean every woman is going to be attracted to you. Additionally, a man's behavior affects how attractive he is as well.


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## BluesPower

Yes you are an idiot for hanging around. 

Further, you doing all the "work" on the marriage means that you are a beta boy in this relationship if not every aspect of your life. 

You wife is having and affair, and you have not caught her. If she was not then, she is Def sleeping with someone now. 

The problem is really simple, she does not love you, and based on the sex issues she has, she never really loved you and she will never love you. 

When a woman loves a man and is attracted to him she wants to have sex with him. It really is that simple. 

Just divorce and try to grow a person and a man and find someone new...


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## Clayton33

Middle of Everything said:


> I may be reaching here, but your wife sounds like a "never enough" person.
> 
> Can have a good life but its never enough.
> 
> There are people in life that get to a point and cannot enjoy the life they have. They let the "what ifs" take over their thoughts. Call it midlife crisis, the grass is greener, whatever.
> 
> Hell I could be wrong and you could be at fault. Could have ignored her and werent a good husband. But the quick read over your recap gives me the feeling of a never enough, grass is greener situation.


This could be part of it. I mean, I've pretty much been the model husband. Caring, great father, provider, get on great with in laws, good looking. I'm not sure what she hopes to find out there.


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## Spicy

Welcome to TAM, but I am sorry for the heartbreak that brought you here.

To me, it sounds like she is "done", but her moving back home gives mixed signals. In my first marriage I tried many times to stay, even though I was sure I was done (and I indeed was done). I reasoned that there was little harm in trying again, yet there would be tremendous harm to my kids and STBXH if I gave up and filed for divorce earlier than necessary. This ember of hope allowed me to try a few more years. Since my kids were unaware that we were having problems, this gave them more time and good memories in their "happy home". 

I would throw yourself into addressing any of the things you know she is unhappy with about you, and see if that helps at all. Who knows, it's possible...Sadly though with women, when we are done, there rarely is any coming back from it. I would love to hear that you are able to keep this together and all find happiness, so as to keep your daughter from the effects of a broken home, if it can be done. I wish you all the very best. 

Stick around, keep posting, we can help you no matter which way your journey ends up taking you.


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## Clayton33

I guess I'm scared to be alone in a way. I don't have a network of friends to fall in with. We moved to a new city 5 years ago. I'd be completely starting again - with no one. Even my family is in another city. 

Maybe part of why I'm fighting so hard is out of fear. 

She'd have no problem. She works in an office where there are constant parties and interactions.


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## bandit.45

No evidence to point that she is having an affair...yet. 

Clayton33 you got settled for... plain and simple. 

Your wife has most likely never been physically or sexually attracted to you. But she saw in you someone safe and responsible, with whom she could hedge her bets. 

You serve a purpose. You fathered a child for her and you provide a good living, but on a romantic level you don't float her boat and you never have. Women have sex with men they are attracted to, and given that she only provides you with duty sex, the proof is in the...um... lack of pudding so to speak. 

You cannot make someone be attracted to you. You cannot make someone love you. Your wife is miserable because she knows she made a huge mistake marrying you, and I do think on some level she feels guilty about it. I honestly think she tries because she doesn't want to hurt you, but she knows she is hurting you by continuing to live the lie. That is where all her moodiness and anxiety comes from. 

My suggestion is to let her go. File for an amicable and fair divorce with shared custody of the child. You will be happier, she will be happier and your kid will be happier.


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## SentHereForAReason

Livvie said:


> It doesn't matter if you "think" you are an 8 in "sexual market value" ( really??) and your wife is a 7. It's subjective. Just because you think you are an 8 does not mean every woman is going to be attracted to you. Additionally, a man's behavior affects how attractive he is as well.


To be honest, I don't think he was trying to brag but rather trying to figure out why she does not desire him when he is fit and looks good.

But I see you point as well, which is very important. My wife's AP is 52, bald and has a gut and is probably 5'9" or so. I'm 6'1", not bald, 38 but compete athletically in football and basketball leagues with the 18-25 age group and to your point, none of that mattered. She saw him as a man's man and wasn't attracted to me because he told her what she wanted to hear and took what he wanted.

The OM's wife even referenced him as the Alpha Male in my first exchange with her. I keep telling my family, we'll see who the alpha male is when we accidently cross paths on the street one day.


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## BluesPower

Clayton33 said:


> This could be part of it. I mean, I've pretty much been the model husband. Caring, great father, provider, get on great with in laws, good looking. I'm not sure what she hopes to find out there.


I am sorry man, I don't want to continue to hurt your feelings. 

No, you have not been the perfect husband, you have been a beta male that society has told to behave the way you have behaved. 

This is the problem, this is how women think they want their Husbands to be, and when it happens they lose interest. 

She is not in love with you, she does not find you attractive, she never really loved you at all. 

You were the NICE SAFE guy that everyone told her to marry.

You need to file for divorce and learn about women and men and you need to start over.


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## Clayton33

BluesPower said:


> I am sorry man, I don't want to continue to hurt your feelings.
> 
> No, you have not been the perfect husband, you have been a beta male that society has told to behave the way you have behaved.
> 
> This is the problem, this is how women think they want their Husbands to be, and when it happens they lose interest.
> 
> She is not in love with you, she does not find you attractive, she never really loved you at all.
> 
> You were the NICE SAFE guy that everyone told her to marry.
> 
> You need to file for divorce and learn about women and men and you need to start over.


You are right. 

I know I've been too Beta. It's now too late to adjust that. Its been too late for some time. 

I always knew deep down I was the safe bet. Mr reliable. Not mr exciting. I guess she wants a bit more exciting in her life than the loving home life. 

It hurts like hell. But I agree with you.


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## bandit.45

Clayton33 said:


> I guess I'm scared to be alone in a way.


Why? Being alone doesn't mean you have to be lonely. You will probably find the bachelor life to be far more interesting than the sham marriage you have now.





> I don't have a network of friends to fall in with. We moved to a new city 5 years ago. I'd be completely starting again - with no one. Even my family is in another city.


The fun is in the re-exploration of who you are. This is an opportunity to be a great dad to your kid, meet new people who have similar intertests and values, and to maybe re-visit old hobbies and passions you gave up when you got married. 



> Maybe part of why I'm fighting so hard is out of fear.


What specifically are you afraid of? Living alone is not disempowering. It takes getting used to, but once you do it is very liberating not being in a relationship that sucks you dry. 



> She'd have no problem. She works in an office where there are constant parties and interactions.


Probably not, but that wouldn't be your concern would it? Your concern would be to build a new and exciting life for yourself...the possibilities are endless. And eventually if you wanted to you could date, and actually find a woman who desires you and wants to have fulfilling sex with you. That is the opposite of what you have now.


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## Ursula

Posts like this tend to break my heart because they're all too familiar. Here's my 2 cents: she's told you that she's unsure, that the connection is gone, and there's no spark there. She has even tired of kissing you and seems pretty blasé about sex. This is not good news. And, this is what happened to me, except it was me who put a load of effort into a marriage to a husband who didn't have time to do the same. We spent no quality time together, so that connection and spark diminished over time until they were gone. The last year or so, the thought of kissing him made me want to vomit, and sex was something that I endured because I had to. I ended it almost a year ago now, and I'm the happiest that I've ever been.

There's light at the end of the tunnel, and life is too short to stay with someone who isn't 100% committed to the relationship. You deserve better, your wife also deserves better, and your child deserves better.

Kudos to you though, for trying to keep your marriage together! If you guys do want to try to save it, I would highly recommend couple's counselling, and just making sure that you're both 100% committed and on the same page. Make sure you both know what you want, and tell each other. Open the lines of communication, and get back to doing fun things. Start dating each other again, and if you have to schedule time for fun, do it.

As a side note (and I hate to say this): I highly doubt that your wife orgasms every time you guys have sex. Knowing what I know of women, #1, that's just highly unlikely for most of us; some can do this though, yes, but those are rare women. and #2, I wasn't into sex with my STBXH for quite some time, and pretty much just laid back and let him do his thing. More than once, I faked some excitement just to make it end sooner.


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## Lostinthought61

Why settle for less that a complete relationship, why deny yourself the opportunity find better. are the crumbs that important? because that is the best she is offering


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## Ursula

stillfightingforus said:


> Something is not right inside of her and no matter what I did, it wouldn't change that. That she was going to have to find out on her own, if she ever does. The problem wasn't the kids, the marriage or anything I had done, *it is something that is NOT right with her inside.*


Just a note that this isn't always the case, and there isn't always something wrong with the spouse that chooses to end things, and it's not always all that person's fault. Often, it's just that the marriage has disintegrated to the point of not being fixable, and one spouse has the courage to pull the plug. But, it takes two to make it and two to break it.


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## As'laDain

Clayton33 said:


> You are right.
> 
> I know I've been too Beta. It's now too late to adjust that. Its been too late for some time.
> 
> *I always knew deep down I was the safe bet. Mr reliable. Not mr exciting. I guess she wants a bit more exciting in her life than the loving home life. *
> 
> It hurts like hell. But I agree with you.





Clayton33 said:


> I guess I'm scared to be alone in a way. I don't have a network of friends to fall in with. We moved to a new city 5 years ago. I'd be completely starting again - with no one. Even my family is in another city.
> 
> Maybe part of why I'm fighting so hard is out of fear.
> 
> *She'd have no problem. She works in an office where there are constant parties and interactions.*


when YOU believe that she can move on with no problem and you cannot, then you view yourself as "the safe bet" and become insecure. when SHE believes it, she loses respect for you. 

start divorce proceedings. separate finances. find things to do that keep you out of the house that you can look forward to. i wouldn't even bother telling her where you go, unless you really look forward to doing it _without_ her. 

if she does not care, then you are better off without her. if she DOES care, she may wake up and realize it. either way, you wont be in limbo.


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## SentHereForAReason

Ursula said:


> Just a note that this isn't always the case, and there isn't always something wrong with the spouse that chooses to end things, and it's not always all that person's fault. Often, it's just that the marriage has disintegrated to the point of not being fixable, and one spouse has the courage to pull the plug. But, it takes two to make it and two to break it.


I don't think it's always the case either but in my opinion, it screams of something missing in the Wife's case here. She simply cannot find happiness and always seems to be searching for it. Sounds a lot like my situation but whenever my STBXW would grab on to what she thought she wanted, she would want more, or something else. She shed through jobs, friends, family, goals, etc, etc. None of them stuck and at the end she was always 'unhappy'. The unhappiness was never the job, the friends, the chores, the activities, etc. There's just something inside her that she chooses to ignore. I think in my case, she has a personality disorder. People in her own family even agree. There's a history of BP on her side.

I wrote what I did because I saw a lot of parallels in his situation to mine.


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## *Deidre*

Just from an outsider view, you don’t really have many nice things to say about your wife. Right down to the fact that you think she’s a ‘’7,’’ while you’re an “8.”

Why do you wish to stay married to your wife, when you don’t really have many positive things to say about her? I’m not judging you for how you feel, but I’m simply asking you to reflect on why you want to stay married? Do you just want to avoid a divorce or do you truly love your wife?


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## zookeeper

Work on accepting that what you want is not what you have. Since her effort is required to make what you have what you want, it's not going to happen. Now you can reclaim control of the situation. Instead of being the victim of her whims you can be the master of your own fate.

Remember something very important. Making a choice always comes with some amount of negative consequence. Could be major, could be minor but it will always be there. Even when you are making the right choice. If you seek the perfect answer you will remain paralyzed and never take action. Ending the marriage may leave you with some regrets, but I doubt they will be as painful as the regrets of continuing to put effort into a relationship with a woman who has no passion for you.


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## jlg07

" What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice. "

and
"She'd have no problem. She works in an office where there are constant parties and interactions."

For me, this pretty much tells me she has her eye on someone (or a couple of someones) and wants to pursue them.

REALLY sorry that you are here. Start working on yourself -- work out, eat right, start doing hobbies YOU are interested in, start going to meetup.com's that interest you to start building a network of friends. This will help you now, and will help you prepare if you are truly done.


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## NJ2

My 2 cents worth- I felt like that about my H about 7 years into our marriage, 12 years together. We had drifted apart- he was busy with his sports and friends and didnt really seem to connect with me no matter how hard I tried. 

I worked where there were lots of parties and social events as well and developed a "friendship " with one of my coworkers- who of course seemed to "get" me so well. That sparked an EA which turned into a PA. I would not count an EA/PA out with your wife. I picked up and dropped my son off at the sitters everyday and was home on the weekends. There is still time. Time to develop emotional intimacy which will impact how she feels towards you physically as well.

If I were to go back and give my H advice it would have been
-do the 180
-stop trying
-you can't nice me back cuz the chemicals of an A are stonger
-tell me you have had enough of my lack of interest in the marriage and you are done. Tell me that there are plenty of woman who would love to have what I have in a life and partner and that you intend to find one that appreciates you
-serve me with separation papers and tell me you have contacted a lawyer-you are letting me go to "find " myself or whatever is lacking in my life
-start acting as though there could be another woman- dress better, hit the gym, go out with friends, to the library, a movie by yourself, find a new hobby that takes up time away from the home, find some activities or people from work to go for a drink/sporting event whatever
- tell her you have booked an MC- not becuase you think the marriage can be saved but to help you both navigate an amiacable divorce for your child.

My guess is if she is having an A -this could shock her out of her fog and she will start doing her own pick me dance
If she is depressed-which could be the case- this could be the impetus to drive her to get help for herself
If she is out of love with no turning back- you will be expediting the process and you will build some strength and support for yourself

My MC said that love is a linear process- sometimes having gaps of "in love" by one partner or the other but in many cases it can get back on track if you both are willing to put in the effort. Both is the key word - right now since she did come back to the home I wouldnt count her 100% out. 

I wish you much luck.


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## Middle of Everything

*Deidre* said:


> Just from an outsider view, you don’t really have many nice things to say about your wife. Right down to the fact that you think she’s a ‘’7,’’ while you’re an “8.”
> 
> Why do you wish to stay married to your wife, when you don’t really have many positive things to say about her? I’m not judging you for how you feel, but I’m simply asking you to reflect on why you want to stay married? Do you just want to avoid a divorce or do you truly love your wife?


Maybe he is an 8. Maybe she is a 7. How is that "not nice"? My wife probably ranks 1 higher than me. Im not going to cry about it. I just think "damn, I must be pretty charming to out kick my coverage".

Im guessing he's not overly positive right now because his wife has basically told him she really doesnt love him and much of the sex theyve ever had has been duty sex that she wasnt into at all. He likely wants to stay married to the wife he THOUGHT he had. Not an easy thing to come to terms with quickly and easily.


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## hinterdir

Unless you are both invested......you both put in the work and do some individual and joint couples counseling than I don't see how you can change anything if one person doesn't care and is checked out. 

If she's checked out than it will probably always be like this. I don't think I could be with someone who had zero interest in me.


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## Clayton33

*Deidre* said:


> Just from an outsider view, you don’t really have many nice things to say about your wife. Right down to the fact that you think she’s a ‘’7,’’ while you’re an “8.”
> 
> Why do you wish to stay married to your wife, when you don’t really have many positive things to say about her? I’m not judging you for how you feel, but I’m simply asking you to reflect on why you want to stay married? Do you just want to avoid a divorce or do you truly love your wife?


I do love her dearly. She's a good person, a great mother, and we have had great memories. We have good companionship and tend to have similar tastes and lifestyles. I think that's why I've been fighting for us.


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## BarbedFenceRider

So, she's checked out. ( My lord, there are alot of these around currently) And you need to start to protect yourself and start over which is rightfully scary. But, you can and will do it. You are on a great site where you can vent, write down events and feelings, or just relate to others who have gone before you. News flash, you aren't the first! And definitely wont be the last. But you can get some wisdom from this and create a balance in your life where there is none right now.


As for the SMV statement, I get what your are saying....You are in your thirties, and you try to do your best to look good and stay healthy. And you have a job / career that is financially sound..Sounds like a dream boat for projected buyers, right?!

Well, as we all know...It ain't that simple. Your wife may be a "7" or whatever, but it truly doesn't matter. But yes, you have been the stereotypical "beta". But the good news is, you can gain some insight from yourself and what you want in the future. Counselling can help prepare you for the end of this marriage. Also, give a good set of skills going forward to keep insight into what you want in a future partner in life. 

I am sooo sorry that your STBXW said those things. That is hurtful and just a mirrored statement she gives you. She is self loathing underneath it all. And she is projecting those emotions onto you. The whole "forced sex" thing on holiday is terrible. What good husband would ever think that that was okay. But the good news is that you identified that and realize that you are a passionate person and that you do respect your partner's life. Obviously, she doesn't.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Clayton33 said:


> I do love her dearly. She's a good person, a great mother, and we have had great memories. We have good companionship and tend to have similar tastes and lifestyles. I think that's why I've been fighting for us.


honestly clayton grow up, she can still be a good person and be your ex, she can still be a good mother and be your ex.....but she makes a lousy wife, honestly who are you try to sell here us or you, we are not sold, but if its you then stuck it up and stay with you because your still immature.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

NJ2 said:


> My 2 cents worth- I felt like that about my H about 7 years into our marriage, 12 years together. We had drifted apart- he was busy with his sports and friends and didnt really seem to connect with me no matter how hard I tried.
> 
> I worked where there were lots of parties and social events as well and developed a "friendship " with one of my coworkers- who of course seemed to "get" me so well. That sparked an EA which turned into a PA. I would not count an EA/PA out with your wife. I picked up and dropped my son off at the sitters everyday and was home on the weekends. There is still time. Time to develop emotional intimacy which will impact how she feels towards you physically as well.
> 
> If I were to go back and give my H advice it would have been
> -do the 180
> -stop trying
> -you can't nice me back cuz the chemicals of an A are stonger
> -tell me you have had enough of my lack of interest in the marriage and you are done. Tell me that there are plenty of woman who would love to have what I have in a life and partner and that you intend to find one that appreciates you
> -serve me with separation papers and tell me you have contacted a lawyer-you are letting me go to "find " myself or whatever is lacking in my life
> -start acting as though there could be another woman- dress better, hit the gym, go out with friends, to the library, a movie by yourself, find a new hobby that takes up time away from the home, find some activities or people from work to go for a drink/sporting event whatever
> - tell her you have booked an MC- not becuase you think the marriage can be saved but to help you both navigate an amiacable divorce for your child.
> 
> My guess is if she is having an A -this could shock her out of her fog and she will start doing her own pick me dance
> If she is depressed-which could be the case- this could be the impetus to drive her to get help for herself
> If she is out of love with no turning back- you will be expediting the process and you will build some strength and support for yourself
> 
> My MC said that love is a linear process- sometimes having gaps of "in love" by one partner or the other but in many cases it can get back on track if you both are willing to put in the effort. Both is the key word - right now since she did come back to the home I wouldnt count her 100% out.
> 
> I wish you much luck.


That was a very honest thing you said there....You must be putting in a lot of work on yourself to see things so clearly now. Thank you. ETJ...


----------



## Clayton33

Lostinthought61 said:


> honestly clayton grow up, she can still be a good person and be your ex, she can still be a good mother and be your ex.....but she makes a lousy wife, honestly who are you try to sell here us or you, we are not sold, but if its you then stuck it up and stay with you because your still immature.


You're right. Not arguing this. I think I was just responding to the question about what I like about her. I liked a lot. But lately it's clear I'm in love with an idea rather than a reality.


----------



## As'laDain

Clayton33 said:


> You're right. Not arguing this. I think I was just responding to the question about what I like about her. I liked a lot. *But lately it's clear I'm in love with an idea rather than a reality.*


no matter where that realization smacks you in the face, it always hurts. it could be anything in life. for some reason, it always seems to hurt when we realized we were wrong about something, or someone. 

i dont know why that is, but it is, and has always been so.


----------



## TRy

Clayton33 said:


> I checked her phone twice, and she caught me. My point to her was that she was acting like someone who’s having an affair. She wasn’t pretty sure of it. She’s the kind of person who wouldn’t be able to hide it. I elaborate more below.


 Trust your gut. You checked her phone because you feel "that she was acting like someone who’s having an affair", because she is. All the red flags are there. Just because you have not caught her yet does not mean anything. A major study showed that most affairs go completely undetected, and that there is only a 3% chance that a cheater is caught in the act. The truth is that you must do much more digging for a lot more time in order to even have a chance at catching her if she is cheating. As fo her supposedly not having the time, that is the number one claim made most cheated on spouses that post to this site just before they find out that their spouse somehow found the time to cheat. Did you know that cheaters often take off of work early or go in late to cheat? Did you know that cheaters often have burner phones so that when you check their phone you will find nothing? Did you know that cheaters often set-up special email and social media accounts to cheat undetected? Did you know that in many cases a cheater will divorce their spouse to be with an affair partner with the spouse never knowing about the affair?

Post in the infidelity section of this site asking for information on how to best figure out if she is cheating. There are many veterans with great advice there. If she is cheating they will help you find out.


----------



## Mr. Nail

*Deidre* said:


> Why do you wish to stay married to your wife, when you don’t really have many positive things to say about her? I’m not judging you for how you feel, but I’m simply asking you to reflect on why you want to stay married? Do you just want to avoid a divorce or do you truly love your wife?


This may soon be the most quoted paragraph on TAM. What you said here really made me re think my whole decision. Do I truly love? or am I just comfortable? Well the chemistry is gone. The respect is on it's last legs. I suppose I won't need to do anything more, it will soon implode of it's own unsupported weight.



hinterdir said:


> If she's checked out than it will probably always be like this. I don't think I could be with someone who had zero interest in me.


Or even very little interest. Which of her hobbies would she put down for five minutes for me?

.end thread jack.


----------



## Chaparral

Clayton33 said:


> I do love her dearly. She's a good person, a great mother, and we have had great memories. We have good companionship and tend to have similar tastes and lifestyles. I think that's why I've been fighting for us.


Every guy that comes here thinks there is no time for an affair. Wrong. Work place affairs can be nearly impossible to catch. Read the evidence gathering thread in the infidelity section. 

While you investigate download or order the MARRIED MANSEX LIFE PRIMER from amazon. It’s never too late to up your game. Especially since you have few friends. Also investigate improving your bedroom technique.


----------



## Chaparral

You mentioned parties that she goes to, do you go with her?


----------



## TRy

Chaparral said:


> Also investigate improving your bedroom technique.


 Although the OP should "investigate his bedroom technique", it may do no good if she is in an affair. Good sex requires good foreplay. Good foreplay requires that she like his touch. If she is in an affair, she will not like the OP's touch when compared to the rush she gets from the touch of her new man, and she will not even like kissing her husband much less foreplay with him; and the OP has already told us that she doesn't like kissing him.


----------



## BluesPower

TRy said:


> Although the OP should "investigate his bedroom technique", it may do no good if she is in an affair. Good sex requires good foreplay. Good foreplay requires that she like his touch. If she is in an affair, she will not like the OP's touch when compared to the rush she gets from the touch of her new man, and she will not even like kissing her husband much less foreplay with him; and the OP has already told us that she doesn't like kissing him.


Guys, I think it is pretty obvious that his wife is having (or multiple) and affair. He just has not caught her yet. 

I suspect that it was "Four Years Ago" when she had a spell. 

But while he has handled everything wrong, I don't see anything that suggest that his bedroom technique is off or bad. 

Don't you guys think we should get him trough the divorce first. 

We all know there is nothing to save here...


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

^^^Exactly...I mean, the affair or affairs suck. But really, its a horse before the cart thingy. Just start preparing for the D. And later if she is remorseful, maybe (slim chance) she will cop to the cheating. Personally, who cares! Just start taking care of #1 (you) and then start building a life without her.


----------



## bandit.45

BluesPower said:


> Guys, I think it is pretty obvious that his wife is having (or multiple) and affair. He just has not caught her yet.
> 
> I suspect that it was "Four Years Ago" when she had a spell.
> 
> But while he has handled everything wrong, I don't see anything that suggest that his bedroom technique is off or bad.
> 
> Don't you guys think we should get him trough the divorce first.
> 
> We all know there is nothing to save here...


At this point it doesn't matter. He needs to D. He may find out down the road years later that she was cheating, but he will be long over her and with someone new.


----------



## Middle of Everything

BarbedFenceRider said:


> ^^^Exactly...I mean, the affair or affairs suck. But really, its a horse before the cart thingy. Just start preparing for the D. And later if she is remorseful, maybe (slim chance) she will cop to the cheating. Personally, who cares! Just start taking care of #1 (you) and then start building a life without her.


Well for quite a few years to go he is 1a. His daughter is #1. Do whats best for himself with her in mind always.


----------



## *Deidre*

Clayton33 said:


> I do love her dearly. She's a good person, a great mother, and we have had great memories. We have good companionship and tend to have similar tastes and lifestyles. I think that's why I've been fighting for us.


You seem like a really kind man, Clayton. I feel badly for you that you're stuck here. 

It could be so many things, really. I got married last year, and while it's still new and fresh, it's definitely different than dating. There's a different feeling when you're married...you are living day to day with someone, seeing each other at their worst, not just at their best. It can be as simple as your wife had the wrong expectations of marriage. 

It is hurtful to not have your spouse want to ever kiss you. That they see sex as a chore. I know it may be hard to hear this but she could be involved in a friendship with a guy at work, and nothing more than that, but it's enough to feed her ego.

Affairs, whether emotional or physical, are all about the ego. And it sounds like your wife's ego is stifled in the marriage. Not your marriage, but just marriage in general. When we're dating, the ego is front and center, but marriage changes things sometimes.

My advice to you would be to tell her plainly how unhappy you are and that you also realize she's not happy. But, you both need to decide if you can stay married, because it's not fair to either of you to be unhappy. I would then start living your life and not let this consume your thinking. I would also state plainly that you don't want to stay married to someone who only wants the benefits of marriage, without the responsibilities. And don't be afraid of her reactions. A lot of men on here, I've noticed, back down and candy coat their opinions to their wives, and nothing ever changes. Stand up for yourself. You don't have to be mean or rude, but stand up for yourself. You both matter, equally.

Hope you find some answers.


----------



## *Deidre*

Mr. Nail said:


> This may soon be the most quoted paragraph on TAM. What you said here really made me re think my whole decision. Do I truly love? or am I just comfortable? Well the chemistry is gone. The respect is on it's last legs. I suppose I won't need to do anything more, it will soon implode of it's own unsupported weight.


Are you speaking of your marriage? Why wait for it to implode? _You_ have always had the power to take it off life support.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

These threads come up so much, its bordering on absurd. Wife wont have sex with husband...wife isn't happy or unfulfilled.... Wife wants to experience life toting 3 kids in her wake. Seems it's always an affair of sorts.

Your wife sounds like an entitled starfish. I really have nothing except my sympathy. In the meantime, get a gym membership if you dont already have one. Read 'Married Mans Sex Primer, and 'The Rational Male' trifecta. Eye opening.


----------



## x598

OP

NEVER rule out an affair. I noticed you said 99% sure...but go to the CWI forum and read the stories there of men who were 100% sure there wasn't an affair going on...….only to find out after ten pages of replies and people screaming "AFFAIR AFFAIR" that they got their head out of the sand and discovered...………..an affair. 

as for this talk of being "beta" that could very well be true...but don't think for a second this is ENTIRELLY the reason for where you are at now. I would offer all it did was get your further down the road and is not the root cause of your issues.

some people has suggested your wife just grabbed on to you as a safe bet, but now wants more and that may very well be true. people often get bored of a new toy, but when they loose it want it back.

first.....rule out 100% an affair. until you can KNOW UNDENIABLY if this is going on, discussion here is pointless. Got to CWI and there are all sorts of posts dealing with this.


----------



## personofinterest

I agree that you need to really do some digging to rule out an affair. She is speaking right out of the wayward script.


----------



## Herschel

This screams guilt to me. I’d say that sometime, oh, 5-8 years ago she cheated on you (maybe a2-4 month affair). It ended and it killed her soul. She has had to be dead to you so she can not hate herself. She feels guilty and she is lost. She will likely never admit it, but it doesn’t matter. Leave and find someone else.


----------



## Clayton33

Thanks for all the replies thus far. You've given me the hard edged, honest advice I was expecting. The advice that hurts, but is needed. 

Just a bit more about me, since it's been mentioned

- When we were going through our bad spell in 2014, I did spend quite a bit of time on these forums, without posting at the time
- As a result, I'm very familiar with Atholl Kay's Married Man Sex Primer. I've read it twice. 
- In the last year I've discovered Rollo Tomassi's Rational Male. That also hit me hard. He showed me a lot of where I went wrong, particularly with Frame. I do find him a bit over the top. He writes like Women all have one big conspiracy against men, which isn't the case. 
- I already live super-healthy. Its just who I am. 
- I've been hitting weights hard since November last year. As a result I really am in fantastic shape. 

I suppose I remember in 2014, when she came around, she really did come around. For the following 2 years I felt really happy. Yes, we still had our issues, but it seemed like things were good. But clearly I might be remembering it differently to her. Therefore maybe I'm holding out for a faint hope of that 'realisation' happening again. Someone mentioned depression. I think there could be an element of that at play here. Or burnout. 

In terms of the possibility of affair. Look, it's always a possibility. What's made me doubt it is that, as I said this has been a gradual decline with us for the last 6 months. Also, she hasn't really looked after herself that well in the last 6 months. Someone in an affair tends to be obsessed about body image. Of course it could be an EA, or a good friendship I havent heard about. Yes, it is possible. 

So here's where I am. Remember we are living together again. 

- Be as calm and confident as possible
- Maintain an air of aloofness, and not react to her
- Be civil and friendly with her
- Gym myself into the ground
- Grow a beard (I'm capable of a great one). This just improves my manliness and makes me seem different. 
- Do my own thing and get out the house more. (Hell, even if it means having a couple of beers on my own. Just need to get out)
- Stay above the fighting, and not get sucked into emotional responses

For example, she's told me about a work party happening tomorrow afternoon/evening at work. It could be a massive '**** test' (Thanks Rollo). Even if she comes home drunk at 9pm, I'm going to stay above it, and act like I don't care. 

I'm doing the above for the next month. If I see no change in her after I'm going to push for divorce. My mind has pretty much come around to the idea and I'm busy making peace with it.


----------



## manwithnoname

jlg07 said:


> " What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice. "
> 
> and
> "She'd have no problem. She works in an office where there are constant parties and interactions."
> 
> For me, this pretty much tells me she has her eye on someone (or a couple of someones) and wants to pursue them.
> 
> REALLY sorry that you are here. Start working on yourself -- work out, eat right, start doing hobbies YOU are interested in, start going to meetup.com's that interest you to start building a network of friends. This will help you now, and will help you prepare if you are truly done.


Yes, plus there's this: 

"I keep saying she’s just not a high drive sexual person, that this would have happened no matter who she married. *She disagrees*. (Quite honestly, she’s never been interested in anything sexual, which has always frustrated me)"

Practically admitting she could very well have a higher drive with someone else.


----------



## Clayton33

manwithnoname said:


> Yes, plus there's this:
> 
> "I keep saying she’s just not a high drive sexual person, that this would have happened no matter who she married. *She disagrees*. (Quite honestly, she’s never been interested in anything sexual, which has always frustrated me)"
> 
> Practically admitting she could very well have a higher drive with someone else.


Yip. She's pretty much flatly admitted this to me.


----------



## Chaparral

So you don’t go to the parties with her? Why? She’s shopping around if she hasn’t already found something.

Have you gpsed her car? Have you checked every number in her phone. Especially “friends?”

Why would a man tolerate a wife that goes out partying without him? How do you confirm that’s where she really is? Where are the parties?


----------



## zookeeper

Don't fall into this obsession with whether or not she is cheating. Your marriage is fundamentally flawed. Whether or not she is faithful changes nothing. Honestly, even if she is 100% true blue, does it make the pain and humiliation of rejection and pity/duty sex any better? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Focus on the problem at hand. Your wife is disgusted with the idea of kissing you, let alone any other physical acts. If this is not acceptable to you, I would start to prepare for divorce. It is highly unlikely that anything you say or do will make a meaningful change in her attitude. The threat of divorce may make her panic and suddenly up her game, but you can be sure that is insincere and temporary. 

If you're anything like me, you would rather have no sex at all than with a woman who has no passion for you. Or worse, finds the act to be an unpleasant task.


----------



## Clayton33

zookeeper said:


> Don't fall into this obsession with whether or not she is cheating. Your marriage is fundamentally flawed. Whether or not she is faithful changes nothing. Honestly, even if she is 100% true blue, does it make the pain and humiliation of rejection and pity/duty sex any better? Yeah, I didn't think so.


You're right. That's why I'm not really entertaining the thoughts of going into investigator mode. I'm approaching it all in a pretty Zen like manner. If she is seeing someone, will finding out change anything? Not really. 

What can I change and control in all this? Only my own actions and thoughts. I'm just focusing on unplugging from her.


----------



## zookeeper

Sounds like you're already far ahead of many other poor souls with similar situations. 

Good luck in your struggle.


----------



## Chaparral

Why do you not answer questions about the office parties?


----------



## Clayton33

Chaparral said:


> Why do you not answer questions about the office parties?


It's the sort of thing thing that will start in the afternoon and go into the evening. No, I'm not included. No partners would be. 

To be fair, she will join one maybe once a month. Its not like a weekly occurrence. 

I have had issues with these in the past though. I have no idea who's there, and the drinking tends to get overboard.


----------



## naiveonedave

Clayton33 said:


> You're right. That's why I'm not really entertaining the thoughts of going into investigator mode. I'm approaching it all in a pretty Zen like manner. If she is seeing someone, will finding out change anything? Not really.
> 
> What can I change and control in all this? Only my own actions and thoughts. I'm just focusing on unplugging from her.


the risk of her being in an affair to you:
1) STDs
2) wasted time trying to make your relationship work (it won't while she's in an affair)
3) if they decide to get together, she could be coached into ruining you financially and or legally (think paying for her affair or false DV charges)
4) she gets prego and you assume you are the bio dad, when in fact, the OM is.

There are plenty of more reasons, these just pop out.


----------



## Chaparral

Drunk parties with coworkers? Stick a fork in it.


----------



## Chaparral

By the way, my wife went to one party like that while the kids were home with me. When I met her at the door (she was obviously toasted) I told her the next time she could pick up her clothes in the black bag on the front porch. Yes, she's still around 25 yrs later. Women love backbone.

Your're being a door mat.

Kids?


----------



## Clayton33

Chaparral said:


> By the way, my wife went to one party like that while the kids were home with me. When I met her at the door (she was obviously toasted) I told her the next time she could pick up her clothes in the black bag on the front porch. Yes, she's still around 25 yrs later. Women love backbone.
> 
> Your're being a door mat.
> 
> Kids?


If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


----------



## Evinrude58

Clayton33 said:


> If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


I've just read your last page of your thread. 

This last quote sums up the major problem in your life: You are utterly incapable of standing up for yourself, even with your own wife. Please divorce this partying cheater you call your wife, work hard at gaining some security and self esteem by working on your physical body at the gym and your mental health by getting ahead financially, and learn to stand up for yourself in ANY relationship. Otherwise, you will be run over the rest of your life by a stronger willed partner.

You do not have to accept ANY of her anger. You are a MAN. You can walk away, you can ask her to leave, you COULD bend her over and give her the spanking she deserves (not recommended, just saying). You also don't have to listen to that BS about controlling and being insecure. Being insecure causes you to back down and second guess yourself when you know you'r in the right. Screw her. Let her freaking go. Please.


----------



## Taxman

My client thought that his wife was having an affair. She gave every indication. She was damn good at keeping a lot of it hidden, but she was a lousy actress and could not cover her disdain for her husband. So, we have been doing his taxes forever, and we make an offer of a PI at a reduced rate. For something around a few hundred, she would be followed. One night, she apparently is working late, and the PI calls him. She is at a bar with a guy and they are heading out. He tells the PI that he would like a chance to rock her world. He quickly makes it over to a fairly cheap motel and is told they went into the room not five minutes earlier. It is February, and the outside temperature is below zero. He knocks on the door, and says Police, open up. When the AP comes to the door, he is literally picked up and tossed outside. The wife is sitting on the bed naked as a jaybird. Her first words; OMG, how the hell did you find out? He tosses her out of the room, gathers their clothes, locks both of them out of the room, takes their clothing and leaves. While driving away, he calls his MIL and tells her that his wife will be living with her, and before she catches pneumonia, she'd better come out and get her. 

Apparently MIL found them under blankets in the motel office. WW was shell shocked. Her mother told her that her marriage was done like dinner. The divorce papers were sent a day later, along with a piece of advice: Don't play people for fools, they get mad.


----------



## Chaparral

Clayton33 said:


> If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


More redflags for being a cheater. They all act that, just as if they read the same cheaters handbook.

Every marriage I know except one has ended when the wife went out drinking without their husband. That's many decades of living.


----------



## ABHale

Clayton33 said:


> You are right.
> 
> I know I've been too Beta. It's now too late to adjust that. Its been too late for some time.
> 
> I always knew deep down I was the safe bet. Mr reliable. Not mr exciting. I guess she wants a bit more exciting in her life than the loving home life.
> 
> It hurts like hell. But I agree with you.


It’s never to late to improve and learn. Do a little reading-No More Mr Nice Guy and The 180. The 180 is to help you to disconnect from your wife. You need to some to see clearly. 

Start working out if you are not already. Make some new friends. Find something to do with your daughter like biking, hiking or kayaking. 

Sorry but someone has caught your wife’s attention. The I have seen some guys I thought was “nice”, when she doesn’t want to be touched by you for 4 years now. Your daughter is two right. I am not saying she is cheating but when you divorce she will be with someone with in a few days. 

File for divorce. Find the best lawyer in your area. Then talk with the next four so your wife can’t use them. Have her served at home or give her the papers yourself. Her true self and feelings for you will show at this point. You will know the truth at this point. 

I know you think there is no way she is cheating on you because there isn’t time or a place. Stop thinking that. Cheaters find a time and a place.


----------



## ABHale

Clayton33 said:


> I do love her dearly. She's a good person, a great mother, and we have had great memories. We have good companionship and tend to have similar tastes and lifestyles. I think that's why I've been fighting for us.


I’m glad you have said this. 

Your wife doesn’t think the same of you. Actually the opposite. 

She might say your a great dad.

You can’t save this by yourself.


----------



## ABHale

Clayton33 said:


> If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


I would have divorced my wife on the spot if she did this. I would prove how uncontrolling I could be. Especially a drinking/drunk party where their partners aren’t allowed. Wonder who has the videos of the parties? 

I guess you can figure out where her ego is getting stroked.


----------



## ABHale

Clayton you said she has been working hard for promotion. Pay raises come with it as well. 

Could she be getting ready to divorce you? 

Making sure she has the best footing before doing so?


----------



## *Deidre*

I think the way divorce courts in the US often favor women, causes many miserable husbands to just keep staying in a miserable marriage. I don’t consider that beta, I just think that is what divorce courts have turned men into. This thread is another example of a couple where the wife is unhappy, isn’t trying to keep the marriage together, and the husband is doing all he can to keep it together, and if they divorce, she gets half of his income and likely, sole custody. Or custody that she dictates. I feel sorry for some of you guys on here, it’s just a sad set up. 

But, I’d rather take my chances in divorce court, than spend the rest of my life begging someone to want me/the marriage.


----------



## bandit.45

Clayton has anyone provided you with the 180 list? If you haven't done it I suggest you start, so that you can begin detaching from her. 

*THE 180 
*

_Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 

No frequent phone calls. 

Don't point out "good points" in marriage. 

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 

Don't ask for reassurances. 

Don't buy or give gifts. 

Don't schedule dates together. 

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them! 

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. 

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! 

Don't be overly enthusiastic. 

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 

Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior. 

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out._


----------



## BluesPower

Clayton33 said:


> If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


You see, this right here is what you have to work on in therapy and in yourself. 

This is such weak, beta behavior that I don't even know what to say. As a person, much less an actual man, you cannot ever allow any person to treat you this way. 

Her knowing that she can scare you into doing whatever she says is one of the reason that she is having an affair. 

She can't respect a man that allows this in her life. 

Further, in any relationship, you have to be willing to end it if you are not treated well. 

Example, my GF and I, me 54 her 60, have both been through a lot in life. And while we are madly in love, at a level for both of us that we never knew existed, if either of us did something shady or stupid, the other would end the R. 

Why, because we are old enough to know what we want in life, we have boundaries, and we refuse to put up with any BS. 

Further example, One night we were apart, and she went to eat with her BFF. They stayed a while, had an extra glass of wine. All cool. 

So the split the Restaurant and swing by our club to listen to the music for a while, and have another glass. 

Later that night she call me, saying that she cannot drive home, which was the right thing to do. 

So I go get her, however, the next day I say, this is a one time thing. Don't let it happen again. 

She understood and it has not. But at the same time, I don't mind once in a while for something like this to happen but not a habit. 

The point is that, I am not going to be put in that situation with anyone. 

You being scared to speak your mind or lay down any rules for your wife is just silly. 

When you finish the divorce, this type of thing is something to work on...


----------



## personofinterest

Exactly what Blues said.

Honestly, realistically, what is the WORST her anger can do?

Bluster and scream and maybe leave, which is what she seems to want to do anyway.

Stand up.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Clayton33 said:


> Hi all
> I thought I’d put my story in more of a point form to make it easier to read through and digest quicker.
> Once you’ve read it, you can tell me if there’s any hope to turn this around or whether I should be running away as fast as I can:
> 
> Background:
> 
> -	Wife is 36, I’m 33. We’ve been married 6 years, and together a total of 10.
> -	We have a beautiful daughter who is 2 years old
> -	Around 4 years ago she went through a ‘spell’ of sorts. Told me she’s disillusioned, unfulfilled and was wondering if this is the best thing for her. Of course, this was tough on me. Up to that point things had been good. Luckily things turned around after a couple of months, and she was very much committed again.
> -	About a year after her unfulfilled period we got pregnant with our little one. It was planned.
> -	She works in the ad agency environment. I work in corporate. I make about double what she does.
> -	Our sex life has never been great. In fact, it has been a source of a good few arguments and friction between us down the years. Traditionally we did it about 3 times month, plus some oral on me in between. But I always wanted want a bit more. Beyond the quantity I always felt she never put the effort in. It was always quite bland and boring. She never professed to like it all that much (although she came every time we had sex). It always felt like obligation for me, and this has always been on my mind.
> -	Despite the sex thing, which we kinda just got along with and kept it up, we do just get along well. We do the parenting thing extremely well. It’s been a loving home. I’ve loved her dearly because she is a good person, and I always thought we had good experiences.
> -	I hate to write this, but right now, I’m probably about an 8 in sexual market value. She’s probably a 7. I’m good looking, successful, in the best shape of my life. She’s also good looking, but hasn’t quite looked after herself as well, and is a woman 3 years older than I am.
> 
> What’s happening now:
> 
> -	About 6 months ago, something just clicked in me I guess. I started realizing that it was only ever me putting in the effort to do the little romantic things.
> -	This feeling in me grew, I realized more and more that she’d changed slightly and wasn’t putting effort in. Was it always like this or was I waking up? Not sure. She had become more and more obsessed with career progression and promotions.
> -	When I addressed this, and our lack of intimacy, indicating that I thought we needed to put effort into make it better, it always led to fights. She kept saying how much pressure she always felt under (job, mother, husband, side job, etc). So the discussions never ended well.
> -	From December to May, it was just a bad time. But we kept going. I know I might have been unattractive in the process. I think I might have come across as insecure a few times, in trying to work out what was going on with her. Anxiety does this to you.
> -	I did some things I shouldn’t have. I checked her phone twice, and she caught me. My point to her was that she was acting like someone who’s having an affair. She wasn’t pretty sure of it. She’s the kind of person who wouldn’t be able to hide it. I elaborate more below.
> -	After a series of bad fights and me voicing more and more dissatisfaction with the marriage, we agreed we’d separate. What started as 2 weeks turned into 5. I let myself down badly once or twice, sending her angry messages I shouldn’t have. I think my feeling was that I really wanted the family to be together long term, and I couldn’t understand why she couldn’t just fight for us to make it work.
> -	She’s seeing a psychologist, saying she feels unfulfilled, heavy hearted and needing to find what she actually wants in life. I’ve made it clear I want the family together. I didn’t want to raise my daughter in a broken home.
> -	In the last week, in the heat of our arguments, she’s told me she never feels like kissing me, and hasn’t for years. She says shevhasn’t wanted to have sex with me for the last 6 months (even though we have done it about 10 times). She even brought up a trip we did to Greece 4 years ago, saying she never wanted to be intimate on holiday (we did, so clearly it was forced). This all makes me feel like I’ve been lied to for years. How can I get over this stuff? It hurts as a man.
> -	She keeps viewing our marriage now in such negative terms in retrospect. Whenever I bring up something that was good about us or good in our past, she’ll turn it into a negative.
> -	She keeps claiming we don’t ‘connect’ and there’s no ‘chemistry’
> -	I keep saying she’s just not a high drive sexual person, that this would have happened no matter who she married. She disagrees. (Quite honestly, she’s never been interested in anything sexual, which has always frustrated me)
> -	She moved back in 2 days ago. We’re now in separate rooms, and things have calmed to an uneasy place- like we’re walking on eggshells around eachother. I think we’ve both had enough fighting.
> - She's tentatively said she wants to work on us. But without much positivity. Hasn't exactly made me feel good about it.
> -	I’m 99% convinced there is no one else. As I said, I’ve looked at her phone. She drops off the 2 year old and picks her up. There’s literally no time for anything physical. And I honestly think that things have got so bad between us that she would have probably told me if there was someone else. I looked her in the eyes and asked her, and honestly can say there’s no one. What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice.
> 
> So there we go. Am I the idiot for waiting around, and wanting this to turn? I have a family to think of here. I wanted to raise my daughter day to day, and have the happy family, which is why this is hurting so much.
> Is there any chance of this turning and us finding that love and connection again, or is she gone?


This sounds a lot like how the problems in my marriage started 5 years ago. At the time I to wanted to stick things out and work on them because of our son, who was then 2. Things between us flip flopped a lot, it would be good for a while, and then bad for a while. All awhile I was trying my best to try and bring that spark back, little gestures, nights out, romantic vacations, you name it and I did it. But things never really got any better, they also didn't get much worse, they just stayed stagnant. Then over the course of the last few years I caught her texting with other men, each time her telling me that they were just friends or work colleagues. As much as I did find rather suggestive and explicit texts from at least one of these men, I never saw any from her, flirty texts from time to time yes, but nothing else. For the sake of our son I still decided to stick things out and continue to see if we could work things out. Now just as we have been at a pretty level point for a while and I thought that maybe with the summer finally coming that all the time we've always spent together doing things would finally be a time that we could possibly rebuild things. Right up until 2 weeks ago when I found out she had been having an affair for over a year with a friend of mine that I've known for almost 30 years.

The only advice I can give if you really want to try and work things out is to watch her, and closely, but not let on that you're doing so. Continue doing things that you think would make her happy, and all of the little romantic gestures, but if her attitude doesn't change chances are it never will. Keep an eye on her cellphone, email, social media and whatever else the best you can without her knowing you're doing it, and just prepare yourself. Don't confront her about anything unless you have 100% proof of something and are ready to go see an attorney. Thinking back on my situation, I wish I had filed for a divorce 2 years ago, it would've spared me a lot of stress and lost sleep over someone who in the end, ultimately wasn't worth it.


----------



## x598

Clayton33 said:


> You're right. That's why I'm not really entertaining the thoughts of going into investigator mode. I'm approaching it all in a pretty Zen like manner. If she is seeing someone, will finding out change anything? Not really.
> 
> What can I change and control in all this? Only my own actions and thoughts. I'm just focusing on unplugging from her.



actually if she IS seeing someone else (AKA an AFFAIR) it would drastically change the advice being offered here on how to handle the situation. that's why its important to know the truth of whats really going on.


----------



## Evinrude58

Clayton33 said:


> Yip. She's pretty much flatly admitted this to me.


She's basically told you she wants to bang other dudes, and she goes to drunken parties with guys she's around regularly and YOU are not wanted there.

Who cares at this point whether she's banging other guys or not. You already know she wants to.

File and let her go. You are in limbo hell of your own making. 
Nothing changes unless you DO something.
What you have been doing isn't working.

You do know what they say about someone who does the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome, right?


----------



## AtMyEnd

Evinrude58 said:


> She's basically told you she wants to bang other dudes, and she goes to drunken parties with guys she's around regularly and YOU are not wanted there.
> 
> Who cares at this point whether she's banging other guys or not. You already know she wants to.
> 
> File and let her go. You are in limbo hell of your own making.
> Nothing changes unless you DO something.
> What you have been doing isn't working.
> 
> You do know what they say about someone who does the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome, right?


Listen to Evinrude58, he said something similar to me a year ago. I didn't listen and was heart set on working things out when she clearly didn't want to. I thought I could change her thinking about things and bring her back, I was wrong. And now here I am, already met with an attorney and have an appointment next week with a mediator.


----------



## TRy

Clayton33 said:


> It's the sort of thing thing that will start in the afternoon and go into the evening. No, I'm not included. No partners would be.
> 
> To be fair, she will join one maybe once a month. Its not like a weekly occurrence.
> 
> I have had issues with these in the past though. I have no idea who's there, and the drinking tends to get overboard.


 Regular parties that are about getting drunk are not company events, because no company would incur such liability or do it so often; thus they are individual get togethers. As individual get togethers you have to ask why this group does not allow spouses to attend, and why she would go to such non-mandatory group get togethers without you. Your statement that you "have no idea who's there" begs the questions as to why she has not told you who, and if she has not told you because either other spouses are in fact sometimes there, or because it is really just her hanging out with a small group of coworkers include a special male co-worker where you being there would cramp there fun. There is nothing normal about this where as a married person she has a right to expect this. This is pure cheater stuff dude. You are nuts that you have put up with this for this long.

I had a friend that showed up uninvited and an unannounced to such a gathering that his wife went to (he tracked her phone). He discovered that the only partner not invited to this small gathering was him, and that she was clearly there with another guy. You know the rest.


----------



## bandit.45

Clayton I think we are mostly all in agreement that you have a wife who has essentially made it clear to you that she plans to live a single life while married to you. 

The more I go back and read the more I am convinced that she is doing and saying everything she can to push you towards divorcing her. She is a coward. She wants you to be the bad guy and file for divorce so that she can blame you for the ending of the marriage, when in actuality she wants to be done and over with it. She may or may not be cheating on you, but she is enjoying other male attention and it is obvious she doesn't want to be married anymore.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

Atleast separate the finances and start calling out her bull sh*t! Seriously! You are being the roommate with a credit card! F-That! Read Bandit's post again...Start the 180. Get some self respect back. Lets say she is going to take you to the cleaners if you divorce. Then don't. Just walk away....But measure yourself as a man, an independent man. Not the fairy-tail husband you have put yourself into. Because, she is not thinking you are husband. 

I'm sorry that it is so Sh*tty. But You need to spend time on yourself and find what makes you happy. Because guess what? You are NOT happy right now. And she is the cause of that. You need to cut it out now.


----------



## MEM2020

Clayton,
This is half the equation. The fully equation is:

Attractiveness = strength + happiness

The best way to express happiness is to be playful.





Clayton33 said:


> Thanks for all the replies thus far. You've given me the hard edged, honest advice I was expecting. The advice that hurts, but is needed.
> 
> Just a bit more about me, since it's been mentioned
> 
> - When we were going through our bad spell in 2014, I did spend quite a bit of time on these forums, without posting at the time
> - As a result, I'm very familiar with Atholl Kay's Married Man Sex Primer. I've read it twice.
> - In the last year I've discovered Rollo Tomassi's Rational Male. That also hit me hard. He showed me a lot of where I went wrong, particularly with Frame. I do find him a bit over the top. He writes like Women all have one big conspiracy against men, which isn't the case.
> - I already live super-healthy. Its just who I am.
> - I've been hitting weights hard since November last year. As a result I really am in fantastic shape.
> 
> I suppose I remember in 2014, when she came around, she really did come around. For the following 2 years I felt really happy. Yes, we still had our issues, but it seemed like things were good. But clearly I might be remembering it differently to her. Therefore maybe I'm holding out for a faint hope of that 'realisation' happening again. Someone mentioned depression. I think there could be an element of that at play here. Or burnout.
> 
> In terms of the possibility of affair. Look, it's always a possibility. What's made me doubt it is that, as I said this has been a gradual decline with us for the last 6 months. Also, she hasn't really looked after herself that well in the last 6 months. Someone in an affair tends to be obsessed about body image. Of course it could be an EA, or a good friendship I havent heard about. Yes, it is possible.
> 
> So here's where I am. Remember we are living together again.
> 
> - Be as calm and confident as possible
> - Maintain an air of aloofness, and not react to her
> - Be civil and friendly with her
> - Gym myself into the ground
> - Grow a beard (I'm capable of a great one). This just improves my manliness and makes me seem different.
> - Do my own thing and get out the house more. (Hell, even if it means having a couple of beers on my own. Just need to get out)
> - Stay above the fighting, and not get sucked into emotional responses
> 
> For example, she's told me about a work party happening tomorrow afternoon/evening at work. It could be a massive '**** test' (Thanks Rollo). Even if she comes home drunk at 9pm, I'm going to stay above it, and act like I don't care.
> 
> I'm doing the above for the next month. If I see no change in her after I'm going to push for divorce. My mind has pretty much come around to the idea and I'm busy making peace with it.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

*Deidre* said:


> ...and if they divorce, she gets half of his income and likely, sole custody. Or custody that she dictates. I feel sorry for some of you guys on here, it’s just a sad set up.


What backward state does THAT **** happen in? I think I'm starting to hear banjos.

I live in the Northeast and it sure ain't done that way here in my neck of the woods. Most states are No Fault/Community Property states and everything that was acquired DURING the marriage is split down the middle. And the wife certainly doesn't get half - or ANY - of his income if she's already working, like the OP's wife.

If it's a situation where she stopped working a few years ago because they chose for her to stay home to raise the kids,* temporary* alimony is usually granted for a year or two while she gets back on her feet and tries to make herself marketable again, which isn't always easy to do. If a women hasn't worked in 20+ years because she's been a SAHM her whole adult life and has NO marketable skills at all, then I believe lifetime alimony may be considered or granted in those types of cases. But where in the US is a woman simply given half her spouse's salary for life just because the courts said she could have it? I've never even heard of that.

And lastly, shared custody is pretty much a given by the courts unless the parents have chosen some other arrangement that works better for them. The only way the father's custody would be compromised would be if he's declared a danger to the child or he's abusive or he's a junkie, or a sex offender type, etc. etc. Barring any of that, he's legally entitled to shared custody and NO wife is given 'sole' custody just because she wants it nor is she allowed to 'dictate' what the custody arrangement will be.

Where is this happening? I'm assuming it's places like Kentucky or Arkansas.


----------



## naiveonedave

She'sStillGotIt said:


> What backward state does THAT **** happen in? I think I'm starting to hear banjos.
> 
> I live in the Northeast and it sure ain't done that way here in my neck of the woods. Most states are No Fault/Community Property states and everything that was acquired DURING the marriage is split down the middle. And the wife certainly doesn't get half - or ANY - of his income if she's already working, like the OP's wife.
> 
> If it's a situation where she stopped working a few years ago because they chose for her to stay home to raise the kids,* temporary* alimony is usually granted for a year or two while she gets back on her feet and tries to make herself marketable again, which isn't always easy to do. If a women hasn't worked in 20+ years because she's been a SAHM her whole adult life and has NO marketable skills at all, then I believe lifetime alimony may be considered or granted in those types of cases. But where in the US is a woman simply given half her spouse's salary for life just because the courts said she could have it? I've never even heard of that.
> 
> And lastly, shared custody is pretty much a given by the courts unless the parents have chosen some other arrangement that works better for them. The only way the father's custody would be compromised would be if he's declared a danger to the child or he's abusive or he's a junkie, or a sex offender type, etc. etc. Barring any of that, he's legally entitled to shared custody and NO wife is given 'sole' custody just because she wants it nor is she allowed to 'dictate' what the custody arrangement will be.
> 
> Where is this happening? I'm assuming it's places like Kentucky or Arkansas.


most laws are written that way but have very wide range for judges to do as they please for the benefit of the child. In many locations judges take the tact that 50/50 living arrangements are worse for the kids than living mostly with mom and dad getting weekends. In many states if you are married to a SAHP and D, alimony lasts a lot longer than a few years. This is why men fear D court, because they still get raped by the system more often than not.


----------



## personofinterest

She'sStillGotIt said:


> What backward state does THAT **** happen in? I think I'm starting to hear banjos.
> 
> I live in the Northeast and it sure ain't done that way here in my neck of the woods. Most states are No Fault/Community Property states and everything that was acquired DURING the marriage is split down the middle. And the wife certainly doesn't get half - or ANY - of his income if she's already working, like the OP's wife.
> 
> If it's a situation where she stopped working a few years ago because they chose for her to stay home to raise the kids,* temporary* alimony is usually granted for a year or two while she gets back on her feet and tries to make herself marketable again, which isn't always easy to do. If a women hasn't worked in 20+ years because she's been a SAHM her whole adult life and has NO marketable skills at all, then I believe lifetime alimony may be considered or granted in those types of cases. But where in the US is a woman simply given half her spouse's salary for life just because the courts said she could have it? I've never even heard of that.
> 
> And lastly, shared custody is pretty much a given by the courts unless the parents have chosen some other arrangement that works better for them. The only way the father's custody would be compromised would be if he's declared a danger to the child or he's abusive or he's a junkie, or a sex offender type, etc. etc. Barring any of that, he's legally entitled to shared custody and NO wife is given 'sole' custody just because she wants it nor is she allowed to 'dictate' what the custody arrangement will be.
> 
> Where is this happening? I'm assuming it's places like Kentucky or Arkansas.


Um....no. Contrary to what you all may have heard up there in Rudeland, that isn't how divorce works down here either. Oh, and we all wear shoes too lol


----------



## aine

Clayton33 said:


> Hi all
> I thought I’d put my story in more of a point form to make it easier to read through and digest quicker.
> Once you’ve read it, you can tell me if there’s any hope to turn this around or whether I should be running away as fast as I can:
> 
> Background:
> 
> -	Wife is 36, I’m 33. We’ve been married 6 years, and together a total of 10.
> -	We have a beautiful daughter who is 2 years old
> -	Around 4 years ago she went through a ‘spell’ of sorts. Told me she’s disillusioned, unfulfilled and was wondering if this is the best thing for her. Of course, this was tough on me. Up to that point things had been good. Luckily things turned around after a couple of months, and she was very much committed again.
> -	About a year after her unfulfilled period we got pregnant with our little one. It was planned.
> -	She works in the ad agency environment. I work in corporate. I make about double what she does.
> -	Our sex life has never been great. In fact, it has been a source of a good few arguments and friction between us down the years. Traditionally we did it about 3 times month, plus some oral on me in between. But I always wanted want a bit more. Beyond the quantity I always felt she never put the effort in. It was always quite bland and boring. She never professed to like it all that much (although she came every time we had sex). It always felt like obligation for me, and this has always been on my mind.
> -	Despite the sex thing, which we kinda just got along with and kept it up, we do just get along well. We do the parenting thing extremely well. It’s been a loving home. I’ve loved her dearly because she is a good person, and I always thought we had good experiences.
> -	I hate to write this, but right now, I’m probably about an 8 in sexual market value. She’s probably a 7. I’m good looking, successful, in the best shape of my life. She’s also good looking, but hasn’t quite looked after herself as well, and is a woman 3 years older than I am.
> 
> What’s happening now:
> 
> -	About 6 months ago, something just clicked in me I guess. I started realizing that it was only ever me putting in the effort to do the little romantic things.
> -	This feeling in me grew, I realized more and more that she’d changed slightly and wasn’t putting effort in. Was it always like this or was I waking up? Not sure. She had become more and more obsessed with career progression and promotions.
> -	When I addressed this, and our lack of intimacy, indicating that I thought we needed to put effort into make it better, it always led to fights. She kept saying how much pressure she always felt under (job, mother, husband, side job, etc). So the discussions never ended well.
> -	From December to May, it was just a bad time. But we kept going. I know I might have been unattractive in the process. I think I might have come across as insecure a few times, in trying to work out what was going on with her. Anxiety does this to you.
> -	I did some things I shouldn’t have. I checked her phone twice, and she caught me. My point to her was that she was acting like someone who’s having an affair. She wasn’t pretty sure of it. She’s the kind of person who wouldn’t be able to hide it. I elaborate more below.
> -	After a series of bad fights and me voicing more and more dissatisfaction with the marriage, we agreed we’d separate. What started as 2 weeks turned into 5. I let myself down badly once or twice, sending her angry messages I shouldn’t have. I think my feeling was that I really wanted the family to be together long term, and I couldn’t understand why she couldn’t just fight for us to make it work.
> -	She’s seeing a psychologist, saying she feels unfulfilled, heavy hearted and needing to find what she actually wants in life. I’ve made it clear I want the family together. I didn’t want to raise my daughter in a broken home.
> -	In the last week, in the heat of our arguments, she’s told me she never feels like kissing me, and hasn’t for years. She says shevhasn’t wanted to have sex with me for the last 6 months (even though we have done it about 10 times). She even brought up a trip we did to Greece 4 years ago, saying she never wanted to be intimate on holiday (we did, so clearly it was forced). This all makes me feel like I’ve been lied to for years. How can I get over this stuff? It hurts as a man.
> -	She keeps viewing our marriage now in such negative terms in retrospect. Whenever I bring up something that was good about us or good in our past, she’ll turn it into a negative.
> -	She keeps claiming we don’t ‘connect’ and there’s no ‘chemistry’
> -	I keep saying she’s just not a high drive sexual person, that this would have happened no matter who she married. She disagrees. (Quite honestly, she’s never been interested in anything sexual, which has always frustrated me)
> -	She moved back in 2 days ago. We’re now in separate rooms, and things have calmed to an uneasy place- like we’re walking on eggshells around eachother. I think we’ve both had enough fighting.
> - She's tentatively said she wants to work on us. But without much positivity. Hasn't exactly made me feel good about it.
> -	I’m 99% convinced there is no one else. As I said, I’ve looked at her phone. She drops off the 2 year old and picks her up. There’s literally no time for anything physical. And I honestly think that things have got so bad between us that she would have probably told me if there was someone else. I looked her in the eyes and asked her, and honestly can say there’s no one. What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice.
> 
> So there we go. Am I the idiot for waiting around, and wanting this to turn? I have a family to think of here. I wanted to raise my daughter day to day, and have the happy family, which is why this is hurting so much.
> Is there any chance of this turning and us finding that love and connection again, or is she gone?


Intimacy in a marriage is not only about sex. It seems you are both on different wave lengths in this regard. You are not romancing her so she wont have sex with you.


----------



## Malaise

TRy said:


> Regular parties that are about getting drunk are not company events, because no company would incur such liability or do it so often; thus they are individual get togethers.* As individual get togethers you have to ask why this group does not allow spouses to attend, *and why she would go to such non-mandatory group get togethers without you. Your statement that you "have no idea who's there" begs the questions as to why she has not told you who, and if she has not told you because either other spouses are in fact sometimes there, or because it is really just her hanging out with a small group of coworkers include a special male co-worker where you being there would cramp there fun. There is nothing normal about this where as a married person she has a right to expect this. This is pure cheater stuff dude. You are nuts that you have put up with this for this long.
> 
> I had a friend that showed up uninvited and an unannounced to such a gathering that his wife went to (he tracked her phone). He discovered that the only partner not invited to this small gathering was him, and that she was clearly there with another guy. You know the rest.


The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club.


----------



## bandit.45

personofinterest said:


> Um....no. Contrary to what you all may have heard up there in Rudeland, that isn't how divorce works down here either. Oh, and we all wear shoes too lol


You Southerners have running water and schools too. I saw it myself passing through Little Rock.


----------



## personofinterest

bandit.45 said:


> You Southerners have running water and schools too. I saw it myself passing through Little Rock.


I still gots all my teeth too! Yeehaw!


----------



## DTO

Clayton33 said:


> This could be part of it. I mean, I've pretty much been the model husband. Caring, great father, provider, get on great with in laws, good looking. I'm not sure what she hopes to find out there.


She's flat out told you she doesn't feel attracted to you. She's felt this way for years yet hasn't said anything because she valued having you around. And, her behavior lines up with her words. Therefore, you can be confident she really feels this way, and told you so reluctantly rather than as a way to hurt / insult you.

Your question is: is it you, or does she have unrealistic expectations of a romantic partner? The answer is: you can't know for sure, and it doesn't matter either way. She believes it's you - that is her reality and that is what matters.

You need to set a boundary that you will not be with a woman who avoids sex with / is not attracted to you. So, she will either figure out her response and cheerfully engage with you, or she will leave. If she leaves (which seems likely) then you move on with your life as well; if she leaves, she might find someone more compatible, or she may have a rude awakening. But that's no longer your concern.

I'm going through that. I had a lot going on when married (we both had weight issues, but I was otherwise good). She saw me as basic and easily replaceable. She moved out, got remarried fairly quickly, then he got tired of her and moved out too. She's not done much with her life. She dislikes being alone but can't find anyone up to her standards (and truthfully she doesn't have much to offer).

I, on the other hand, got my life on track: lost weight, have upgraded my career, and do well for my child. I've been dating a pretty, smart, and ambitious lady for two years and life is looking up.

I wouldn't go so far to say my ex wants me back. But she has regrets and probably wishes she had tried harder, especially seeing the divergence of our lifestyles (she always complains about how broke she is) and being uncomfortable with me having a good lady. But that ship is sailed; she made her own bed and gets to lie in it. I'm happy with my life and thus don't care much about what happens with hers.

That is the level of detachment you should seek for yourself. Resolve to build a life that works for you, with or without your current wife. If she works it out with you then great, if not then who cares what she thinks; you'll be happy and the rest is trivial.


----------



## BobSimmons

Clayton33 said:


> This could be part of it. I mean, I've pretty much been the model husband. Caring, great father, provider, get on great with in laws, good looking. I'm not sure what she hopes to find out there.


Doesn't matter. She's just not into you. Her actions pretty much say it loudly and she's actually been honest and told you.

If you're such an 8, surely you let go and find a compatible woman you can give your amazing sex to?


----------



## Davidmidwest

Clayton33 said:


> Hi all
> I thought I’d put my story in more of a point form to make it easier to read through and digest quicker.
> Once you’ve read it, you can tell me if there’s any hope to turn this around or whether I should be running away as fast as I can:
> 
> Background:
> 
> -	Wife is 36, I’m 33. We’ve been married 6 years, and together a total of 10.
> -	We have a beautiful daughter who is 2 years old
> -	Around 4 years ago she went through a ‘spell’ of sorts. Told me she’s disillusioned, unfulfilled and was wondering if this is the best thing for her. Of course, this was tough on me. Up to that point things had been good. Luckily things turned around after a couple of months, and she was very much committed again.
> -	About a year after her unfulfilled period we got pregnant with our little one. It was planned.
> -	She works in the ad agency environment. I work in corporate. I make about double what she does.
> -	Our sex life has never been great. In fact, it has been a source of a good few arguments and friction between us down the years. Traditionally we did it about 3 times month, plus some oral on me in between. But I always wanted want a bit more. Beyond the quantity I always felt she never put the effort in. It was always quite bland and boring. She never professed to like it all that much (although she came every time we had sex). It always felt like obligation for me, and this has always been on my mind.
> -	Despite the sex thing, which we kinda just got along with and kept it up, we do just get along well. We do the parenting thing extremely well. It’s been a loving home. I’ve loved her dearly because she is a good person, and I always thought we had good experiences.
> -	I hate to write this, but right now, I’m probably about an 8 in sexual market value. She’s probably a 7. I’m good looking, successful, in the best shape of my life. She’s also good looking, but hasn’t quite looked after herself as well, and is a woman 3 years older than I am.
> 
> What’s happening now:
> 
> -	About 6 months ago, something just clicked in me I guess. I started realizing that it was only ever me putting in the effort to do the little romantic things.
> -	This feeling in me grew, I realized more and more that she’d changed slightly and wasn’t putting effort in. Was it always like this or was I waking up? Not sure. She had become more and more obsessed with career progression and promotions.
> -	When I addressed this, and our lack of intimacy, indicating that I thought we needed to put effort into make it better, it always led to fights. She kept saying how much pressure she always felt under (job, mother, husband, side job, etc). So the discussions never ended well.
> -	From December to May, it was just a bad time. But we kept going. I know I might have been unattractive in the process. I think I might have come across as insecure a few times, in trying to work out what was going on with her. Anxiety does this to you.
> -	I did some things I shouldn’t have. I checked her phone twice, and she caught me. My point to her was that she was acting like someone who’s having an affair. She wasn’t pretty sure of it. She’s the kind of person who wouldn’t be able to hide it. I elaborate more below.
> -	After a series of bad fights and me voicing more and more dissatisfaction with the marriage, we agreed we’d separate. What started as 2 weeks turned into 5. I let myself down badly once or twice, sending her angry messages I shouldn’t have. I think my feeling was that I really wanted the family to be together long term, and I couldn’t understand why she couldn’t just fight for us to make it work.
> -	She’s seeing a psychologist, saying she feels unfulfilled, heavy hearted and needing to find what she actually wants in life. I’ve made it clear I want the family together. I didn’t want to raise my daughter in a broken home.
> -	In the last week, in the heat of our arguments, she’s told me she never feels like kissing me, and hasn’t for years. She says shevhasn’t wanted to have sex with me for the last 6 months (even though we have done it about 10 times). She even brought up a trip we did to Greece 4 years ago, saying she never wanted to be intimate on holiday (we did, so clearly it was forced). This all makes me feel like I’ve been lied to for years. How can I get over this stuff? It hurts as a man.
> -	She keeps viewing our marriage now in such negative terms in retrospect. Whenever I bring up something that was good about us or good in our past, she’ll turn it into a negative.
> -	She keeps claiming we don’t ‘connect’ and there’s no ‘chemistry’
> -	I keep saying she’s just not a high drive sexual person, that this would have happened no matter who she married. She disagrees. (Quite honestly, she’s never been interested in anything sexual, which has always frustrated me)
> -	She moved back in 2 days ago. We’re now in separate rooms, and things have calmed to an uneasy place- like we’re walking on eggshells around eachother. I think we’ve both had enough fighting.
> - She's tentatively said she wants to work on us. But without much positivity. Hasn't exactly made me feel good about it.
> -	I’m 99% convinced there is no one else. As I said, I’ve looked at her phone. She drops off the 2 year old and picks her up. There’s literally no time for anything physical. And I honestly think that things have got so bad between us that she would have probably told me if there was someone else. I looked her in the eyes and asked her, and honestly can say there’s no one. What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice.
> 
> So there we go. Am I the idiot for waiting around, and wanting this to turn? I have a family to think of here. I wanted to raise my daughter day to day, and have the happy family, which is why this is hurting so much.
> Is there any chance of this turning and us finding that love and connection again, or is she gone?


Hi 
A woman wants to be heard, made to feel important, supported in her endeavors, helped out. Both working. Ask her what she wants. Seduce her, chase her, she wants to be complimented, told that she is beautiful. Dr. Laura put's it this way. You are obligated to be the best for each other. Give. A woman needs emotional needs to be met first before a man gets sex. Sex is what bonds a man to his woman. Sex releases Oxytocin the love hormone in men that makes us want to get out in the world to slay draggons. Start kissing her. Give a six second good kiss when you come home from work and before you go to work. look and smell your best too. Don't focus on sex at all. Focus on love. Corinthians and Collasians-do the below- You both will come around. Drop the psychologist/counselor for the marriage. See a Gottman Qualified therapist only. You will understand his books. They are yours and your wifes life preserver. You are obigated to love God, your wife and daughter no matter what you are not getting. Show more love and you get more back. 

You have a family, good, you seem both of you want to salavage it and he does too. that is good sign. both of you listen to the books on CD on Dr. Laura's book on Proper Caring and feeding of marriage. a good book to let you know what you are missing in relating. "beware it may bring you both to tears when it informs what it is to love and how to do it". it did for me. Then read by John Gottman. The seven principles for making marriage work, how to make love last how to overcome betrayal and build trust, and ten lessons to transform your marriage. Also get to a John Gottman marriage retreat... Try it. It may transform the marriage. Davidmidest. hotml good luck.


----------



## Davidmidwest

Hi 
A woman wants to be heard, made to feel important, supported in her endeavors, helped out. Both working. Ask her what she wants. Seduce her, chase her, she wants to be complimented, told that she is beautiful. Dr. Laura put's it this way. You are obligated to be the best for each other. Give. A woman needs emotional needs to be met first before a man gets sex. Sex is what bonds a man to his woman. Sex releases Oxytocin the love hormone in men that makes us want to get out in the world to slay draggons. Start kissing her. Give a six second good kiss when you come home from work and before you go to work. look and smell your best too. Don't focus on sex at all. Focus on love. Corinthians and Collasians-do the below- You both will come around. Drop the psychologist/counselor for the marriage. See a Gottman Qualified therapist only. You will understand his books. They are yours and your wifes life preserver. You are obigated to love God, your wife and daughter no matter what you are not getting. Show more love and you get more back. 

You have a family, good, you seem both of you want to salavage it and he does too. that is good sign. both of you listen to the books on CD on Dr. Laura's book on Proper Caring and feeding of marriage. a good book to let you know what you are missing in relating. "beware it may bring you both to tears when it informs what it is to love and how to do it". it did for me. Then read by John Gottman. The seven principles for making marriage work, how to make love last how to overcome betrayal and build trust, and ten lessons to transform your marriage. Also get to a John Gottman marriage retreat... Try it. It may transform the marriage. Davidmidest. hotml good luck.


----------



## bandit.45

Too late for all that now. She has checked out.


----------



## Clayton33

Ok, an update. 

After posting this about a week ago, I took in all of the replies. I also did some serious soul searching, and realised that I was way too attached to her. In the last 10 years I'd clearly become too attached and too needy of her (more in my own mind than in my behaviour), which has made it so hard to pull away. Even now I'm struggling. But I have come to terms with the fact that for the last year, she hasn't exactly been a good wife to me. 

In terms of the last week - living together has been extremely business like. I've tried to be nice. I've entertained her conversations about a work project she's working on. Yet she can't even bring herself to ask me anything about my own projects. And I'm involved in something quite exciting for me right now. Yet . . . nothing. I sent her a really really great article on relationships 2 weeks ago, and insisted she read it. Yet she told me she hasn't. That's kinda said it all for me. She's so self absorbed. 

So last night we spoke for the first time in a week on where things are at. She said she loves me, but when I asked her does she want to fight for the marriage, she said she doesn't know. I said that's not good enough for me, and I think I want to move on. All I got from that point was anger, so much anger - anger that she's going through this 'process' with the psychologist, yet I'm rushing her and always at her about this. (I've been silent for a week - no serious talk). She keeps angrily saying that this is a process she's going through, and will take time. 

I really think her psychologist is doing more harm than good - and actually leading her astray, while wasting time and money. Apparently she asked the psychologist about proceeding with couples therapy, yet the psychologist insisted she finish her 'process' first. Yes, the process which could take a couple of months, while the marriage burns. Pathetic. I think she's now being controlled by what the psychologist says. 

Anyway, bottom line is, I'm out. I just don't know how to do it. I mean, serving her divorce papers is a bit of a pr!ick move, and not something I want to do. I certainly don't want to sit around for another couple of months with someone who doesnt know if they want to work on the marriage. If she said to me that she wants to work on it, I would give this all the time it needs. But I cant wait for someone who doesnt even know if they want to work on us. 

I want his to be all over. I want to get the pain out the way. I want to break free of her. She's toxic right now.


----------



## manwithnoname

Clayton33 said:


> Ok, an update.
> 
> After posting this about a week ago, I took in all of the replies. I also did some serious soul searching, and realised that I was way too attached to her. In the last 10 years I'd clearly become too attached and too needy of her (more in my own mind than in my behaviour), which has made it so hard to pull away. Even now I'm struggling. But I have come to terms with the fact that for the last year, she hasn't exactly been a good wife to me.
> 
> In terms of the last week - living together has been extremely business like. I've tried to be nice. I've entertained her conversations about a work project she's working on. Yet she can't even bring herself to ask me anything about my own projects. And I'm involved in something quite exciting for me right now. Yet . . . nothing. I sent her a really really great article on relationships 2 weeks ago, and insisted she read it. Yet she told me she hasn't. That's kinda said it all for me. She's so self absorbed.
> 
> So last night we spoke for the first time in a week on where things are at. She said she loves me, but when I asked her does she want to fight for the marriage, she said she doesn't know. I said that's not good enough for me, and I think I want to move on. All I got from that point was anger, so much anger - anger that she's going through this 'process' with the psychologist, yet I'm rushing her and always at her about this. (I've been silent for a week - no serious talk). She keeps angrily saying that this is a process she's going through, and will take time.
> 
> I really think her psychologist is doing more harm than good - and actually leading her astray, while wasting time and money. Apparently she asked the psychologist about proceeding with couples therapy, yet the psychologist insisted she finish her 'process' first. Yes, the process which could take a couple of months, while the marriage burns. Pathetic. I think she's now being controlled by what the psychologist says.
> 
> Anyway, bottom line is, I'm out. I just don't know how to do it. I mean, serving her divorce papers is a bit of a pr!ick move, and not something I want to do. I certainly don't want to sit around for another couple of months with someone who doesnt know if they want to work on the marriage. If she said to me that she wants to work on it, I would give this all the time it needs. But I cant wait for someone who doesnt even know if they want to work on us.
> 
> I want his to be all over. I want to get the pain out the way. I want to break free of her. She's toxic right now.


Seems she is keeping you in limbo because you are a safety net and provide almost everything she wants. The only thing is she not attracted to you. You searched her phone and are pretty sure there is no one else, yet she has co-workers and goes to these parties where people indulge too much?

If you need to be a prick, be a prick.


----------



## BluesPower

Well I for one, am glad to see that you are waking up. 

And frankly, I think you are correct about her psychologist. That is the thing about all the counselors and what not, I really thing that more than half of them, are just not worth a damn. 

And you have no idea what is going on in there and the odds are that it is not good for the marriage. 

But at least you are starting to wake up. And you know, when she said that she did not know if she wanted to work on the marriage, man, that is your queue to bail. 

Who in their right mind would wait another second for someone to decide if they want to be with you or not...


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## farsidejunky

OP, you are going to have to stop fearing her anger. 

If you know you want out, she will HAVE to be served. How you do it has some latitude...but not whether or not you do it...so ask her. 

"Wife, I am filing for divorce next week. I need to know how you want to be served that will cause the least amount of angst."

If she tells you...great.

If she rants about what you haven't done in the relationship, or anything else for that matter, simply hold your hand up and say:

"Wife, discussions about improving relationships are for two people who are committed to doing so. Since that is not the case, there will be no discussion about it. Now, where is it you would like me to have you served?"

If she rants again, shrug your shoulders and go do something you want to do. Then plan to have her served in a way that makes it easiest for you. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

A "prick move"????????


When will you see the light?

Your wife goes to drunken parties with you, tells you she isn't attracted to you, doesn't know if she wants to be married to you....
And you are worried about appearing as a "prick" to her? 

You need to just have her served, unless you really aren't ready yet. Just remember, the years go by a lot faster than you think. If you do nothing, you could be in this for no telling how long. Do you really think this "process" is going to end with her confessing her undying love for you? No, it won't. IT will end with her telling you that she just doesn't love you and feels that you need to divorce. That will happen when she finally finds a man she thinks will take care of her flaky ass. One that she IS attracted to.

What she has done, and what she is currently doing---- that is the prick move. Having her served is the dignified move on your part.

You will never be anything but used by your wife. She's checked out a long time ago.


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## Clayton33

Evinrude58 said:


> A "prick move"????????
> 
> 
> When will you see the light?
> 
> Your wife goes to drunken parties with you, tells you she isn't attracted to you, doesn't know if she wants to be married to you....
> And you are worried about appearing as a "prick" to her?
> 
> You need to just have her served, unless you really aren't ready yet. Just remember, the years go by a lot faster than you think. If you do nothing, you could be in this for no telling how long. Do you really think this "process" is going to end with her confessing her undying love for you? No, it won't. IT will end with her telling you that she just doesn't love you and feels that you need to divorce. That will happen when she finally finds a man she thinks will take care of her flaky ass. One that she IS attracted to.
> 
> What she has done, and what she is currently doing---- that is the prick move. Having her served is the dignified move on your part.
> 
> You will never be anything but used by your wife. She's checked out a long time ago.


You're right, of course. 

You will surely understand that it is difficult to accept defeat on something and someone you fought for for the last few months, who you've been with for the last 10 years. 

I know what needs to be done. That doesn't make it easy though. 

I'm pulling myself out of this bit by bit.


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## Evinrude58

What you are having to do is extremely difficult. The only thing to do, is file and do it. You know she's not going to change her mind. The anger is about losing her safety net, her doormat, her wallet. If there was love there, you'd see compassion and sadness at the thought of losing your love. Wasn't any of that, right?

Have her served when you're ready. Not until you've had enough. But when you file, don't let her drag her feet. Get it done.

What your wife is doing to you is almost as cruel as straight up cheating. I personally think she's not having an "affair". She's just f'ing men at those parties and not really emotionally attached to any particular one. If so, she'd be on the phone with him all the time. 

It matters not, what she is doing is keeping you on the hook until she has an exit plan well established. My thoughts are that her exit plan is to get herself another man first. Of course, she'll never admit that. But an exit affair is exactly what she will do, if not already.

You know yourself, she's not in this for the long haul. She's using you at this point.


----------



## BluesPower

Clayton33 said:


> You're right, of course.
> 
> You will surely understand that it is difficult to accept defeat on something and someone you fought for for the last few months, who you've been with for the last 10 years.
> 
> I know what needs to be done. That doesn't make it easy though.
> 
> I'm pulling myself out of this bit by bit.


Listen, brother, you are a young man. You think 10 years is a big deal, sorry man it is not. You literally have your entire life ahead of you. 

You are thinking wrong about all of this. You were not perfect, ok, tell me who is? Your wife on the hand is obviously way way not perfect. 

There is an economic principle called the sunken cost whatever. I forget the exact name, but it basically talks about not throwing good money (emotional energy) after bad. 

This applies to your relationship. Your head is completely mess up about this entire thing. 

You are a good guy, not bad looking, make a good living, and on and on. You have worth in the dating market for a ton of women out there that are not as completely nuts as your wife is. 

Dude, you deserve to be loved, you deserve a woman that loves you for all your good qualities, you deserve a woman the wants to have sex with you and thinks you are sexy. 

You deserve someone other than your wife. She does not deserve you, and I am not sure that she ever has. 

Brother, you have really been foolish for a long time in this marriage, why don't you wake up and understand that you deserve to be happy and you deserve to be loved...


----------



## Lostinthought61

Clayton, the first step on any new journey is acceptance. I think she is more upset because she is losing her control of you....you have become aware of this in balance in your relationship, that her ability to manipulate you is no longer something she can expect to use....let me paint you example.....picture yourself as a rocket ship and her as a planet, her gravitational hold on you has kept your rocket ship from leaving....your talk was the beginning of pulling away, a great start but you have to now find the courage in yourself to pull away from her completely...not easy i get that....but you need to keep in mind that you deserve to be with someone who not just says the words "I love you" but demonstrates it. you deserve better and i promise you this 6 months, a year when your rocket ship has completely pulled away from her planet you will see yourself in a whole new light.


----------



## ABHale

Talk with a divorce lawyer and work it up. Once you do this, invite your wife to meet with your lawyer and go over the terms. 

Her anger might be from not being able to say I’m done first.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Clayton33 said:


> If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


Clayton sir, read Larry Wingets “Grow a Pair”. Easy read and good advice. You seem way too timid in your approach to her.
Women respect firmness and strength. Quit being a doormat.


----------



## NJ2

Herschel said:


> This screams guilt to me. I’d say that sometime, oh, 5-8 years ago she cheated on you (maybe a2-4 month affair). It ended and it killed her soul. She has had to be dead to you so she can not hate herself. She feels guilty and she is lost. She will likely never admit it, but it doesn’t matter. Leave and find someone else.



This ^^ could be very true. That is how I felt after my A. H never found out at the time. I ended it because I knew how wrong and dispicable the whole sordid thing was. Once the fog was starting to lift I couldnt lie to myself anymore. It was so hard to do that. I felt for the rest of the marriage -unworthy of H, unworthy of my marriage. It warped my self image and the way I saw our marriage. I think I hated myself and resented him for whatever was "lacking" that led to it. Obviously I know now there were so many alternatives I should have pursued first to strengthen the marriage or to leave it. An A should never be a coping mechanism for what we are missing inside us. 

My A killed my soul. The guilt was everlasting and crowded every emotion I had. It prevented true intimacy with my H which is what I longed for. We did not achieve any of that until I admitted to the A 25 years later. (when I suspected he was having an EA/PA with a coworker I looked for help on TAM- I realized what a hypocrite I was by keeping my secret) After years of MC and IC - H and I are in a much better place. 

He said he realized and was sorry that he never bothered to get to know me on a deeper level throughout all those previous years. I had always focused on him not "getting" me but I had not bothered to "get" him either. It is a gift to see him as vulnerable. It is a gift to know his inner fears and needs. Hes a macho guy so it wasnt easy for him to share in this way. It was life changing for me to tell him about my A and work towards building his forgiveness and trust. 

The above is a bit of a ramble - I'm too tired to edit lol.


----------



## BluesPower

NJ2 said:


> This ^^ could be very true. That is how I felt after my A. H never found out at the time. I ended it because I knew how wrong and dispicable the whole sordid thing was. Once the fog was starting to lift I couldnt lie to myself anymore. It was so hard to do that. I felt for the rest of the marriage -unworthy of H, unworthy of my marriage. It warped my self image and the way I saw our marriage. I think I hated myself and resented him for whatever was "lacking" that led to it. Obviously I know now there were so many alternatives I should have pursued first to strengthen the marriage or to leave it. An A should never be a coping mechanism for what we are missing inside us.
> 
> My A killed my soul. The guilt was everlasting and crowded every emotion I had. It prevented true intimacy with my H which is what I longed for. We did not achieve any of that until I admitted to the A 25 years later. (when I suspected he was having an EA/PA with a coworker I looked for help on TAM- I realized what a hypocrite I was by keeping my secret) After years of MC and IC - H and I are in a much better place.
> 
> He said he realized and was sorry that he never bothered to get to know me on a deeper level throughout all those previous years. I had always focused on him not "getting" me but I had not bothered to "get" him either. It is a gift to see him as vulnerable. It is a gift to know his inner fears and needs. Hes a macho guy so it wasnt easy for him to share in this way. It was life changing for me to tell him about my A and work towards building his forgiveness and trust.
> 
> The above is a bit of a ramble - I'm too tired to edit lol.


This is a really honest and very self aware post. I am sorry that it took so long for you to get it, but at least you got it. 

Kudos....


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

OP needs to start 180. It does wonders for gaining strength in your own life, building an ego that you can rely upon and basically learning to live without those which are toxic. WW is definitely a narcissist. Always her, her, her. Not one mention of your pain. The funny thing is that she views in my mind, is the marriage is more of a "club" of sorts. Something she "belongs" to, but not actively engaged in maintaining. Marriage is 2 people, becoming one with love, trust, understanding and respect. Not just a friendly camaraderie that is easily put on a shelf when one of the partners decides to "check out". 


Do not allow her to dictate your happiness. You only have one life to live here bud....Why waste it on a pipe dream that only you have?


----------



## bandit.45

Clayton33 said:


> You're right, of course.
> 
> You will surely understand that it is difficult to accept defeat on something and someone you fought for for the last few months, who you've been with for the last 10 years.
> 
> I know what needs to be done. That doesn't make it easy though.
> 
> I'm pulling myself out of this bit by bit.


Clayton do not let her make you fee like the bad guy. Here is the truth: you have done all you could to save this marriage. You have done just about all the heavy lifting. You have gone far longer and been far more accommodating to her than most partners would with a dysfunctional spouse like her. She has had 10 years to get her sh*t together and has not done so. She has shown you through her actions that she is more interested in partying, carousing and most likely ****ing coworkers.

File for divorce. Have her served. This is the business side of marriage. You are exercising your right to unilaterally end the marital contract. It has nothing to do with love or emotions. She defaulted on the marital contract by refusing to have conjugal relations. That's it. End of story. 

Explain to her family exactly why you are divorcing her: because she no longer values the marriage, refuses to do the things a wife should do for her husband, and you are seeing to your own welfare and happiness.


----------



## Taxman

She either knows or senses that she is in control, and she is fine with it. Me? First, I would contact her therapist and give him a piece of my mind. I actually did this when my wife and I were separated, and something interesting emerged. I was giving her therapist shlt, because we were not moving forward. She had told me that her therapist said to keep me at arms length. Her therapist countered that he had told her nothing of the sort, that her exercises were to try to open up to me. I thanked him, and then called my wife. I told her what her therapist said, and then said that the reconciliation is over, and I will send her the divorce papers presently. She had a royal shytte. I had called her out, because knowing her, and knowing that she is a major procrastinator, that she would probably string me along for months until she decided to shlt or get off the pot. The next call I got was her mom asking why I was blowing everything up. I told her exactly what the therapist said to me, and she just lost it. Suffice to say that my wife no longer is a procrastinator. She saw that her inaction and lies were going to blow the whole thing up, and still did not want to proceed until I let the sword of Damocles hang over her head.

The second thing I would do, is what I said before, I would give her the divorce papers and say that it is now all on her, fu ck her process, which I think is merely a way for the therapist to make a few more bucks. Here is my process: Get a fu cking attitude adjustment and decide whether or not you want to be married to me, or would you rather be alone, and I can have dates with women who are actually interested in me and NOT IN A PROCESS.


----------



## TRy

@OP: In post#1 of this thread when you said “I looked her in the eyes and asked her, and honestly can say there’s no one. What she did say to me was that it isn’t a case of one person turning her head. It’s a broader thing, and that she’s seen men out there that she though are nice”, with that statement by her I would have been done with the marriage. Not only is she not committed to the marriage, but you are not even in the running.

That statement shows that although she may or may not now be having sex with any single individual, she is currently open to finding your replacement, and that there may be some flirting and courting already going on. When people ask why you are divorcing her, in addition to telling them about the lack of intimacy and commitment by her to wanting to be married to you, be sure to also tell them about that comment.


----------



## TDSC60

What State are you in? I say this because, in some States infidelity is a factor in divorce settlement. If she is having an affair with a coworker, then that is the hardest to prove if they limit all communication to the office - and limit all physical contact to after work parties. I say this because it might be worth it to you to get a PI for a couple of her office parties. Her attitude toward you make it clear she could be in an affair.

If you are in a no fault State, don't bother with the PI.

You are now her very weak Plan B. She has left the marriage and will treat you like yesterday's garbage but can't quite bring herself to toss it out.

I know you wish things were different. I know you don't want a failed marriage. I know you want your wife to BE the wife you imagine she could be. I know you want to fix things. I know you love her. I know you want a happy home. But all your wishes and hopes mean nothing to her. Do not let fear control you and keep you from taking the steps to have a happy future.


----------



## TRy

@OP: Based on what you have said, your wife is what would be called a "Walk Away Wife". To better understand what this means Google "Walkaway Wife Syndrome". Walk away wives are often open to exit affairs.

Many men do not care if a woman is in a relationship, living with someone, engaged, or married. What they do care about is if that woman considers herself "taken" in a committed relationship. If they are interested in a woman, they fish to see how she reacts to their growing advances. One of the things that they will do is to create opportunities to touch her. At first it will be innocent touches such as brushing against her arm. If she does not move away or say something, it will quickly escalate to such things as putting their arm on her leg and hugging her from behind. If she accepts these advances with a smile, the other man as well as additional men that are observing this, will think that she is not taken, and treat her accordingly. I would guess that this may be an issue with your wife since she clearly is telling you things that indicate that she is no longer taken.


----------



## Rgaines

Clayton33 said:


> If I did that to my wife (which I have before, in a way), she'd throw so much anger back at me, tell me I'm insecure, and that I'm controlling.


I read a statistic recently that was pretty high for women that filed for a D when they were 1-3 years older than their spouses. Seems to me that being an 8 compared to a 7 (or any number lower) is less important than being thought of as a child simply because of a year, or 3, difference in age. My gut says that stereotype comes from our years in school as children and that they are so ingrained in society that most people can't really shake the impression on a personal level and are just fooling themselves when they try. 
That said, it also fits into the "beta ideology" women may think they want a guy who washes the dishes and cooks, and doesn't question them. I think the truth is that women who would "would throw so much anger back" at their spouses don't fear losing them. Not that if such a reality became evident she might suddenly develop such a fear, but that people don't generally fear losing those they consider children in their eyes (until they don't see them that way, usually only momentarily).


----------



## Clayton33

Rgaines said:


> I read a statistic recently that was pretty high for women that filed for a D when they were 1-3 years older than their spouses. Seems to me that being an 8 compared to a 7 (or any number lower) is less important than being thought of as a child simply because of a year, or 3, difference in age. My gut says that stereotype comes from our years in school as children and that they are so ingrained in society that most people can't really shake the impression on a personal level and are just fooling themselves when they try.
> That said, it also fits into the "beta ideology" women may think they want a guy who washes the dishes and cooks, and doesn't question them. I think the truth is that women who would "would throw so much anger back" at their spouses don't fear losing them. Not that if such a reality became evident she might suddenly develop such a fear, but that people don't generally fear losing those they consider children in their eyes (until they don't see them that way, usually only momentarily).


This is a good angle, and one I havent explored on here. 

I've always felt like my wife hasnt quite respected me as much as she should because I'm three years younger. I think she's even alluded to this once or twice.

The other thing that I remembered the other day, is the when she went through that weird phase in 2014, was one comment she said to me in anger during a fight. She said: "You're not a big guy, and I like big guys". Now, the reason this comment is so unfair is because I'm pretty much an average sized guy. I'm probably an inch taller than her, and I'm lean, but not skinny. I'm certainly not small. Clearly I'm not her type, and never was. 

I should have walked away in 2014.


----------



## Clayton33

The most telltale thing for me in the last week of living with her has been the complete lack of interest in anything I'm doing. 

As a side note, I'm finally working up the courage to get out of corporate and set up my own consultancy / agency. It's a mssive deal for me, and I already have a big client close to being on board. I have a website half set up. It's all moving. FInally my dream might be happening. 

In the last month, has she asked me anything about this? No. I show her stuff, like the product, plan, logo, website. But unless I've brought it up with her, she hasn't even asked me once about it. 

The mask is off. She's no longer pretending to give a ****.


----------



## Evinrude58

Clayton33 said:


> The most telltale thing for me in the last week of living with her has been the complete lack of interest in anything I'm doing.
> 
> As a side note, I'm finally working up the courage to get out of corporate and set up my own consultancy / agency. It's a mssive deal for me, and I already have a big client close to being on board. I have a website half set up. It's all moving. FInally my dream might be happening.
> 
> In the last month, has she asked me anything about this? No. I show her stuff, like the product, plan, logo, website. But unless I've brought it up with her, she hasn't even asked me once about it.
> 
> The mask is off. She's no longer pretending to give a ****.


She hasn't pretended in a long time, Clayton. She's been telling you what you needed to know. Yes, you should have been gone a long time ago. Your wife has not only broken your heart, but she's been using you totally for her own security while she's been grooming other men for your old position. She's really a heartless, cruel person. I think you can easily do better. I am CERTAIN that you will find you are the hot commodity, rather than her, on the dating scene. Her choices will likely consist of a few tired, useless drunks that attend these "work parties" and have no morals--- because most guys will recognize her for what she is. YOU, however, will have the chance to date lots of beautiful women that you may or may not have had a chance at when you were younger.

Just saying, you likely will feel a lot of sorrow when you divorce. You'll feel like she was the only one that you ever loved, your life is over, blah blah, wah wah. That is NOT true. And when you finish grieving this cluster**** you call a marriage, you will find that there's other women and your wife was not the only one you can love. 
Being single is not all that bad. You can do what you want, when you want, and nobody is going to demand your time. 
You're not in a bind as bad as you think.


----------



## janet_pi

The sexiest thing a man can do is man up and be himself. Tell her straight.


----------



## tech-novelist

Just from reading your first post on this thread, I would have been astounded if she hadn't already been unfaithful to you.

Congratulations for getting yourself together and readying your departure.

There's a lot better life out there for a man who knows what he wants and how to get it.


----------



## jlg07

"In the last month, has she asked me anything about this? No. I show her stuff, like the product, plan, logo, website. But unless I've brought it up with her, she hasn't even asked me once about it. 
"

I would stop bringing it up -- just stop communicating with her completely -- just go 180.


----------



## Clayton33

I must say, the idea of her having an EA or even a physical affair with someone is picking away at me. 

All her whatsapp profile pics recently have been her on her own. Not even with our daughter, but pretty much the best possible pics of her on her own. 

Same for Facebook

This morning I tried looking at her phone while she was in the shower. Surprise surprise, it's password protected. 

She's flatly denied it when I've asked her, when it actually would have been better to just tell me so I could understand the situation better. But yes, she could be thinking that she wants to come out of this not looking like the bad one. 

I'm thinking of a GPS tracker hidden in her car. Suddenly I feel like I have to know.


----------



## lizlizzylizz

Okay so i had similar experience... although it was backwards me wanting sex most of the time and Him telling me no was a very horrible feeling ... it just kills you little by little inside ... the way she is acting or was acting sounds like she does Have someone else .. usually they tend to focus on the negative of the person which is the one that is in love and faithful and they’re always making all the positives into the negatives by saying you no longer have anything in common .. you don’t make them happy and that it has been going on for years but they kept quiet .. that they no longer want or feel attracted to you ..but they just seem to be making more & more excuses... making you feel like it’s your fault or questioning yourself as a man .. Is just them playing the victim so they can go ahead and have freedom to do whatever it is they’re finding more interest ... I know you feel she isn’t being unfaithful ... but being unfaithful isn’t only sexually ... She maybe emotional unfaithful and there’s many ways us women can hide it ... i speak from experience...


----------



## bandit.45

Clayton33 said:


> I must say, the idea of her having an EA or even a physical affair with someone is picking away at me.
> 
> All her whatsapp profile pics recently have been her on her own. Not even with our daughter, but pretty much the best possible pics of her on her own.
> 
> Same for Facebook
> 
> This morning I tried looking at her phone while she was in the shower. Surprise surprise, it's password protected.
> 
> She's flatly denied it when I've asked her, when it actually would have been better to just tell me so I could understand the situation better. But yes, she could be thinking that she wants to come out of this not looking like the bad one.
> 
> I'm thinking of a GPS tracker hidden in her car. Suddenly I feel like I have to know.


A digital VAR attached with velcro under the driver's side seat works also if she is talking to someone on her cell phone. It also gives you a chance to know if she's talking smack about you to her friends. 

But in the end, whether or not she is cheating seems to be a side-point. The main problem is that she has shown you she does not respect or value you through her words and actions and cares little about the marriage. She's waiting and hoping you will end it.


----------



## SentHereForAReason

bandit.45 said:


> A digital VAR attached with velcro under the driver's side seat works also if she is talking to someone on her cell phone. It also gives you a chance to know if she's talking smack about you to her friends.
> 
> But in the end, whether or not she is cheating seems to be a side-point. The main problem is that she has shown you she does not respect or value you through her words and actions and cares little about the marriage. She's waiting and hoping you will end it.


And the second point makes the first point of less importance because of the potential repercussions of VARs. In my state, if someone is recorded with a VAR without their permission, the book is gonna get thrown at you. The courts will care less about the affair and the moral misconduct but you mess with the privacy law stuff and you will get hammered!


----------



## Dawghoused

I think your wife does not love you anymore. Every working woman has the same pressure as your wife has but still, they are enjoying their life and care about their husband's physical needs. You should end this marriage and find someone else.


----------



## bandit.45

stillfightingforus said:


> And the second point makes the first point of less importance because of the potential repercussions of VARs. In my state, if someone is recorded with a VAR without their permission, the book is gonna get thrown at you. The courts will care less about the affair and the moral misconduct but you mess with the privacy law stuff and you will get hammered!


There is not a county attorney in the U.S. who would waste taxpayer money to charge a man for spying on a dishonest wife. A cop probably wouldn't even think to cite him for it. 

And besides, how can she prove he was doing it to spy on her? The car is half his. All he has to say is he put it in there as a security device. All he has to do is play dumb and treat it like no big deal. 

If he puts a lo-jack or GPS in the car she could charge him with illegally tracking her whereabouts. Doesn't mean it would stick. She would get laughed out of the courtroom.


----------



## Nucking Futs

stillfightingforus said:


> And the second point makes the first point of less importance because of the potential repercussions of VARs. In my state, if someone is recorded with a VAR without their permission, the book is gonna get thrown at you. The courts will care less about the affair and the moral misconduct but you mess with the privacy law stuff and you will get hammered!


Provide examples.


----------



## wilson

bandit.45 said:


> And besides, how can she prove he was doing it to spy on her? The car is half his. All he has to say is he put it in there as a security device. All he has to do is play dumb and treat it like no big deal.


Just because it's 1/2 his car doesn't mean he can install a secret listening device. If it was the car he drove 100% of the time, then maybe, but he would need to inform any passengers about it.

The same goes for secret cameras that are sometimes recommended here. Just because it's your house doesn't mean you can install cameras to secretly record people who are legally okay to be there. You can install cameras, but you have to inform the people who live there that recording is happening.

But in the end, it would come down to who can pay their attorney more. She wouldn't have to get the cops involved at all. She could sue him herself. It might still be worth doing the secret recording, but the person doing it should be aware that they are opening themselves up to potential legal liability if it was ever found out.


----------



## SentHereForAReason

Nucking Futs said:


> Provide examples.


Didn't need any examples, just needed my lawyer who has been on the job for 25+ years and pretty much came in as the most recommended legal counsel in the region to tell me that I would be a fool to do that and it would be a good way to lose any leverage that we had. Wasn't so much that I would get prosecuted or even fined but it would take me from having the high ground in the legal proceedings, down to STBXW's level in the eyes of the judge.


----------



## BluesPower

stillfightingforus said:


> Didn't need any examples, just needed my lawyer who has been on the job for 25+ years and pretty much came in as the most recommended legal counsel in the region to tell me that I would be a fool to do that and it would be a good way to lose any leverage that we had. Wasn't so much that I would get prosecuted or even fined but it would take me from having the high ground in the legal proceedings, down to STBXW's level in the eyes of the judge.


Look guys, we could go round and round about this. OP needs to plant a VAR so he can KNOW what is going on in his life. 

OP, don't tell anyone that you did it or where any info came from. Just do it. 

You waiting around is just wasting your life...


----------



## bandit.45

wilson said:


> Just because it's 1/2 his car doesn't mean he can install a secret listening device. If it was the car he drove 100% of the time, then maybe, but he would need to inform any passengers about it.
> 
> The same goes for secret cameras that are sometimes recommended here. Just because it's your house doesn't mean you can install cameras to secretly record people who are legally okay to be there. You can install cameras, but you have to inform the people who live there that recording is happening.
> 
> But in the end, it would come down to who can pay their attorney more. She wouldn't have to get the cops involved at all. She could sue him herself. It might still be worth doing the secret recording, but the person doing it should be aware that they are opening themselves up to potential legal liability if it was ever found out.


You can sue anybody for anything. Doesn't mean you'll win. 

She can sue him for illegal recording. He can counter-sue her for using his property (1/2 the car) to facilitate committing adultery. Tit for tat, it gets settled out of court and the lawyers make beaucoup money.


----------



## Nucking Futs

So we've gone from this:



stillfightingforus said:


> And the second point makes the first point of less importance because of the potential repercussions of VARs. *In my state, if someone is recorded with a VAR without their permission, the book is gonna get thrown at you. The courts will care less about the affair and the moral misconduct but you mess with the privacy law stuff and you will get hammered!*


To this.



stillfightingforus said:


> Didn't need any examples, just needed my lawyer who has been on the job for 25+ years and pretty much came in as the most recommended legal counsel in the region to tell me that I would be a fool to do that and it would be a good way to lose any leverage that we had. *Wasn't so much that I would get prosecuted or even fined but it would take me from having the high ground in the legal proceedings, down to STBXW's level in the eyes of the judge.*


The truth is this doesn't get prosecuted. So var the car but don't tell anyone about it, don't share the recordings, don't tell her where you're getting your information from. Do it for your own information.


----------



## SentHereForAReason

BluesPower said:


> Look guys, we could go round and round about this. OP needs to plant a VAR so he can KNOW what is going on in his life.
> 
> OP, don't tell anyone that you did it or where any info came from. Just do it.
> 
> You waiting around is just wasting your life...


That's the other aspect of this. I'm against it now but I found out everything I needed to know, so I have a different perspective. If I didn't find out what the 'truth' who knows what I would have been willing to do. For 6 months, I did everything I could to save the marriage but in parallel was working to find out the truth. It was closure in a way for me to find out about all of the lies and then to look back on everything she had said and done and measure that against the day by day evidence I now had. Finding out the truth was the most important mental thing I had done throughout the year of Hell.

In short, I advise against it but I think for some people getting the truth is more important than the risk and it's easy for me to say not to do it since I found out the evidence with other ways (I'm IT/Net Engineer). OP, just figure out how important the truth is to you and your psyche and then go from there but do it with careful planning, before, during and after, admit nothing!


----------



## SentHereForAReason

Nucking Futs said:


> So we've gone from this:
> 
> 
> 
> To this.
> 
> 
> 
> The truth is this doesn't get prosecuted. So var the car but don't tell anyone about it, don't share the recordings, don't tell her where you're getting your information from. Do it for your own information.


This is a good point. My first statement is the letter of the law Michigan Recording Law | Digital Media Law Project

My 2nd statement is from the horse's mouth and most likely closer to the truth, similar to what you are saying.


----------



## In Absentia

I agree with some of the others... it's not you, it's her. I am in a similar situation. After years of battling this, I've come to the conclusion that she is broken inside. She always was to a certain extent. For example, all her colleagues are jealous of her because I'm a good cook and I'm always cooking her fantastic meals, but she has no interest in me... other women would be on seventh heaven, but not her. I've accepted it, especially after she said she didn't want to have sex with me anymore. Fair enough... a bit sad, because you feel rejected ultimately, but there you go. My advice would be: just go. Don't drag all this for years like I have done. It takes time to come to this conclusion, but the sooner you leave the better. Good luck!


----------



## MattMatt

Chaparral said:


> Drunk parties with coworkers? Stick a fork in it.


Company I used to work at we had drunken parties a couple of times a year.

And nothing bad happened ever.


----------



## BobSimmons

Honestly, what is this nonsense?

The OP is getting disrespected daily, it's not even hidden disrespect, it's open disrespect.

Checking phones, VARS, what's the point?

Just hire a PI and be done with it. Do something at least.


----------



## Marc878

Like most you are affraid and have been living life on her terms. She's a cake eater. When you stop feeding them cake they get angry. So what?

Buy a VAR and pay cash if it is found just deny, deny, deny. How they gonna prove it? They aren't and won't waste any time trying.

The only one keeping you where you are is you. Many come here living in fear so affraid of the spouse leaving. Don't be she's already gone.

I see this "fighting for the marriage" thing. It's total bull****. One can't fight for anything. You are wasting your time. It takes two for a marriage 

Read up. https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy It's short


----------



## Clayton33

In Absentia said:


> I agree with some of the others... it's not you, it's her. I am in a similar situation. After years of battling this, I've come to the conclusion that she is broken inside. *She always was to a certain extent. For example, all her colleagues are jealous of her because I'm a good cook and I'm always cooking her fantastic meals, but she has no interest in me... other women would be on seventh heaven, but not her. I've accepted it*, especially after she said she didn't want to have sex with me anymore. Fair enough... a bit sad, because you feel rejected ultimately, but there you go. My advice would be: just go. Don't drag all this for years like I have done. It takes time to come to this conclusion, but the sooner you leave the better. Good luck!


Yea, this is very much how I feel. I have a good female friend who's listened to my situation in the last 6 months and kept telling me how lucky my wife is when I explain what I bring to the marriage. 

I guess the make or break element in all this is attraction. If she doesnt feel anything, there's nothing I can do to change that. I could probably look like a Men's Health cover model and it wouldn't make a single bit of difference.


----------



## Clayton33

The best thing that's happened to me is this this realisation that I'm actually in control of this situation, and consequently I feel like I'm above it. I've had no more emotional outbreaks to her, I'm feeling better. 

A few weeks ago I promised to give her up to the end of June. And I'll stick to that. I want to stay being the good guy here. But ultimately I've come around to the idea that I control this. Whether I walk away or wait around another month or two is ultimately my decision. I'm not sure she's aware of this, but I'm the one evaluating her, possibly more than she's evaluating me right now, and it's liberating.

I'll let you all know when once I decide anything major.


----------



## In Absentia

Clayton33 said:


> If she doesnt feel anything, there's nothing I can do to change that. I could probably look like a Men's Health cover model and it wouldn't make a single bit of difference.


yes... it won't... I've learnt it the hard way. I've made mistakes, I've been nice and not so nice... I've withdrawn, I've been loving... nothing works...


----------



## In Absentia

Clayton33 said:


> The best thing that's happened to me is this this realisation that I'm actually in control of this situation, and consequently I feel like I'm above it. I've had no more emotional outbreaks to her, I'm feeling better.
> 
> A few weeks ago I promised to give her up to the end of June. And I'll stick to that. I want to stay being the good guy here. But ultimately I've come around to the idea that I control this. Whether I walk away or wait around another month or two is ultimately my decision. I'm not sure she's aware of this, but I'm the one evaluating her, possibly more than she's evaluating me right now, and it's liberating.
> 
> I'll let you all know when once I decide anything major.


well, yes, it's a liberation, tinged with a splash of sadness. But you can't control others.


----------



## OnTheFly

Clayton33 said:


> If she doesnt feel anything, there's nothing I can do to change that.


True…. 






Clayton33 said:


> I could probably look like a Men's Health cover model and it wouldn't make a single bit of difference.


Also true….with your wife anyway, but to someone else??


----------



## SunCMars

Livvie said:


> It doesn't matter if you "think" you are an 8 in "sexual market value" ( really??) and your wife is a 7. It's subjective. Just because you think you are an 8 does not mean every woman is going to be attracted to you. Additionally, a man's behavior affects how attractive he is as well.


Add to that good grooming and dressing nice.


----------



## Evinrude58

Stop procrastinating. You’ve “waited” far too long and accepted poo sandwiches far too long. Evaluating her? Laughable. She is not going to change her mind or her ways.

Stalling. Either make up your mind to stay or 
Make it up to leave. 

Waiting = stalling/inaction

Nothing to wait on here.


----------



## honcho

Clayton33 said:


> The best thing that's happened to me is this this realisation that I'm actually in control of this situation, and consequently I feel like I'm above it. I've had no more emotional outbreaks to her, I'm feeling better.
> 
> A few weeks ago I promised to give her up to the end of June. And I'll stick to that. I want to stay being the good guy here. But ultimately I've come around to the idea that I control this. Whether I walk away or wait around another month or two is ultimately my decision. I'm not sure she's aware of this, but I'm the one evaluating her, possibly more than she's evaluating me right now, and it's liberating.
> 
> I'll let you all know when once I decide anything major.


She isn't evaluating you, she's already done that and made up her mind. Your trying to change what can't be changed. Giving yourself deadlines in the future is just a way of avoiding. Deadlines work doing taxes and work projects, not in relationships.


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## Evinrude58

honcho said:


> She isn't evaluating you, she's already done that and made up her mind. Your trying to change what can't be changed. Giving yourself deadlines in the future is just a way of avoiding. Deadlines work doing taxes and work projects, not in relationships.


Yes, but he wants to continue to “be the good guy here”...... that’s gotten OP a helluva lot.

I have an idea: Try being the bad guy. Really bad.
Like, divorce her and get things as much in your favor as possible. Then laugh about it in her face.

See what happens then. “Being the good guy” is what has put you in this situation to start off with. Sometimes being stern, not tolerating bs, and calling things as they are—— that’s what is needed in life.


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## Marc878

Sounds like you're stuck in the indecision mode. Making ultimatums, etc are excuses to do nothing hence no decision on your part.

Read up its short and should help you if you'll apply it.

https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy

The only one keeping you where you are is you.


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## oldshirt

Clayton33 said:


> The best thing that's happened to me is this this realisation that I'm actually in control of this situation, and consequently I feel like I'm above it. I've had no more emotional outbreaks to her, I'm feeling better.
> 
> A few weeks ago I promised to give her up to the end of June. And I'll stick to that. I want to stay being the good guy here. But ultimately I've come around to the idea that I control this. Whether I walk away or wait around another month or two is ultimately my decision. I'm not sure she's aware of this, but I'm the one evaluating her, possibly more than she's evaluating me right now, and it's liberating.
> 
> I'll let you all know when once I decide anything major.


I'll tell you what I told a different poster the other day. You don't have to make an all-or-nothing decision today. You don't have to make some big dramatic revelation and then consume your life with making it happen as soon as possible. 

Just start taking steps towards regaining your own life in preparation towards your life without her. 

There are a million intermediate steps between trying to save the marriage and the final divorce decree. 

Just start taking steps. Clean out your closet and drawers and get rid of what doesn't fit and what you haven't worn in years. Donate to the Salvation Army. 

Get some Rubbermaid storage tubs and start packing what you do want to keep. Get a storage locker and start storing stuff to lighten your load when you move. 

Meet with an attorney and find out what your actual rights and responsibilities and entitlements will be in a divorce and find out what your post divorce life will look like financially. 

Do what your lawyer says and start separating your financial accounts etc. 

Start looking into where you'd like to live and what kind of house/apartment you'd like to have on your own. 

With each step you will feel more empowered and more in control of your own future and your own destiny. 

She doesn't care about you or pay any attention to you anyway so you can pretty much do this right under her nose and she won't even notice or care. 

Divorces take many months or even years to finalize anyway and can be called off at any time, so you can start taking these necessary steps now even if you haven't fully made up your mind to split. 

If you do ultimately decide to split, you are that much closer to being done with it. 

And if a miracle happens and you two get together, your closet will be tidier and you'll be in a better position to respond if she does end up cheating or turns cold on you again down the road.


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## In Absentia

when I was in this position, I used to get people here saying... are you really divorcing just for sex? What about your kids, selfish bastard? That made me think... :smile2:

I know, it's completely different to what I said before, but it's an angle I believe you should consider too... it's not easy.


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## Evinrude58

It’s not about sex in Clayton’s case. It’s about a total lack of love, affection, disrespect, disdain....

He doesn’t have a wife. She wants to party and chase other men whom she has TOLD Clayton she’s attracted to. She’s told him plainly he is not the man she wants anymore.

The only thing to do here is cut her loose.
No need to stall when he’s been plainly told by her that she doesn’t want him.

Yes, it’ll hurt at first, but it will go away and his life will actually have some happiness when he’s not worrying about his cheating wife.


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## In Absentia

Evinrude58 said:


> It’s not about sex in Clayton’s case. It’s about a total lack of love, affection, disrespect, disdain....
> 
> He doesn’t have a wife. She wants to party and chase other men whom she has TOLD Clayton she’s attracted to. She’s told him plainly he is not the man she wants anymore.
> 
> The only thing to do here is cut her loose.
> No need to stall when he’s been plainly told by her that she doesn’t want him.
> 
> Yes, it’ll hurt at first, but it will go away and his life will actually have some happiness when he’s not worrying about his cheating wife.



ok... looks like I missed that bit... :nerd:


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## oldshirt

In Absentia said:


> when I was in this position, I used to get people here saying... are you really divorcing just for sex? What about your kids, selfish bastard? That made me think... :smile2:
> 
> I know, it's completely different to what I said before, but it's an angle I believe you should consider too... it's not easy.


They are already only married in name only because neither has actually filed for divorce yet.

They are only coparenting and splitting utility bills as it is.

How much worse could it be if they coparent from different houses???

She obviously isn't happy either and doesn't want to be with him. So why should two people be miserable coparenting under the same roof, when they can coparent from separate homes and each live their own lives in a way that is conducive to mutual happiness?

This isn't about sex.

This is about a former marriage that is already dead and rotting in the sun.


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## oldshirt

oldshirt said:


> This is about a former marriage that is already dead and rotting in the sun.


And like all dead, decaying carcasses, it is a toxic, health hazard that is putting everyone exposed to at risk of further harm.

This needs to be buried to protect everyone.


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## In Absentia

oldshirt said:


> They are already only married in name only because neither has actually filed for divorce yet.
> 
> They are only coparenting and splitting utility bills as it is.
> 
> How much worse could it be if they coparent from different houses???
> 
> She obviously isn't happy either and doesn't want to be with him. So why should two people be miserable coparenting under the same roof, when they can coparent from separate homes and each live their own lives in a way that is conducive to mutual happiness?
> 
> This isn't about sex.
> 
> This is about a former marriage that is already dead and rotting in the sun.



This is what happens when you just read the first and the last page of the thread... >


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