# Chivalrous acts in our Modern world.. Your thoughts, Experiences...



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I tend to feel like this >
















*WOMEN * ... do you CARE about these things anymore ?? Did the Man you marry DO these things at one time...while dating ... then STOPPED... did you marry the Gentleman type ...and he's remained - still holding true to these small acts of kindness to speak his care, even after vows, kids & beyond? 








*MEN*.. did you once treat women like this- at any point in your life.. or do you now look at some of these "sideways" feeling it's just a waste of time...or what do I get back??...since often women don't go for the Gentleman type anyway.. and you find you are better off playing it COOL, a little hard to get / add to the "mystery".. this serves you better...taking lessons from "Pick up Artist" sites would be more your modern handbook...

I just really enjoyed the article, simple as it is..

10 Chivalrous Acts That Define True Gentlemen (And Make Us Melt) | YourTango ... thought I would offer a thread today... I still feel Chivalrous men ROCK [email protected]# 



> Here's to all the women who are looking for that chivalrous, good-hearted guy. He's out there—I've seen it. These are the things he does to make us swoon. (And to all those chivalrous, good-hearted guys, keep doing what you're doing. We love you for it.)
> 
> *1*. *Holding the door.*
> 
> ...


Another site has listed... Saving the last bite of food, Suffering through a girly movie, Sending flowers, Walking on the outside of the sidewalk, Kissing her forehead..


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

My fiance is very chivalrous and I enjoy it. I don't think it necessarily has to come with ideas that women are weaker. I think it comes from his way of showing love is by acts of kindness.

I do think there is a female chivalry too. Not only is his way of expressing love chivalrous acts, but he needs acts of love shown his way. I make sure to make chivalrous acts to him through my actions towards him. 

Its a more old-fashioned way of interaction but it does not have to come with old-fashioned notions of gender. He does not see me as emotionally, mentally or physically weak. I do not see him as emotionally stunted or as my provider. 

It is just a way for us to show affection for each other.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I do all 10. Many since I was a kid.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Do all 10. If I didn't my mama would skin me alive.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

I do want to add, I think chivalry has come to an extreme at this point much like the Disney Dad phenomenom. The emphasis on respect/courtesy of chivalry is lost to being a Prince instead and buying expensive things/making big presentations of one's love in public ways.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I do all ten as well. Maybe not to perfection, but I try.

I have had women act offended when I do the right thing, though. I think chivalry is somewhat a two way street.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> Do all 10. If I didn't my mama would skin me alive.


Exactly! My mom said doing these things was the right thing to do.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I do all ten and so does my wife. I haven't run into many ladies that don't appreciate these things. Actually I can think of only one who assumed I was a sexist by holding a door open. 

Just last weekend we went out to dinner at a high end restaurant and a wife went out before her husband and he didn't even have the curtesy to grab the door from her. He just walked through and let it slam on me. At the next door the wife had noticed what had happened and held it for me after her husband went through without touching it. I said thank you to her and she was pleasant. The husband was halfway to the car not even waiting for his wife. There was little chivalry in him even from what I saw in the restaurant.

It's alive in many bit not all.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Chivalry was instituted at a time when men were responsible for women. Men held more power in society, but were willing to make sacrifices to show high value for women.

During the twentieth century, Western women progressively rejected this arrangement. Feminism took root and women proclaimed that they were just as capable, powerful, and responsible as men.

I take women at their word and don't hold the door for them. If I'm going to get rained on, equality would dictate that my date also get wet. Or, that we draw straws to see which one of us gets wet.

As Dave Chappelle said, "Chivalry is dead, and women killed it."


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

My husband is very chivalrous towards me and always has been. I do like it too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Yeswecan said:


> *I do all 10. Many since I was a kid*.


Mine has done everything listed on here...though I told him a long long time ago, getting my car door is totally silly..I felt that was a waste of time...so he stopped....that I never cared about flowers... he could pick them in the back yard though!... (a waste of *$$* -I can be so practical !)...and he wouldn't call it suffering through movies as he enjoys watching with me.



> *unbelievable said*:* Do all 10. If I didn't my mama would skin me alive*.


 I like that !



> *Maria Canosa Gargano said*:* I don't think it necessarily has to come with ideas that women are weaker. I think it comes from his way of showing love is by acts of kindness.*


 Yes.. I feel as this...I see it as "honoring" ...and we, in turn, HONOR and respect our men too.. it's a beautiful dance.. 










I really liked this article.. Modern Chivalry? some of what it spoke...



> *Chivalry spells out certain ethical standards that foster the development of manhood.* Men are called to be: truthful, loyal, courteous to others, helpmates to women, supporters of justice, and defenders of the weak. They are also expected to avoid scandal.
> 
> Beautiful ideals! They attract us with a sense of nostalgia that feels almost religious. That's because they are part of us already. Unfortunately, they contend with powerful, often destructive influences, like commercial television, that bombard us with outrageously bullish images of men that are, at best, inappropriate.
> 
> ...


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

I do all on the list (and some on the follow up list).

My sons open doors for women (and men too) and try to help out others in need (started having the talks about what a man should do when they're 4).

Proud moment was walking up to the mall and my 4 year old (at the time) runs forward passes and older woman in front of us so he could hold the door for this stranger and my wife.

The lady looked DUMBSTRUCK. She says to me "And I thought that died with my generation." And my wife says...nope...lives on with the men in my family.

The funny one was when I took my wife on our first date. We were walking back to the car and I started to walk a tad faster in order to get to the door first. She didn't know why I was walking faster so she starts upping the pace too, we're only a couple steps from the door and I finally say "what are you doing?", her response was "I was keeping up with you...what are YOU doing?" "I'm trying to get to the door first to open it for you."...she blushed for a good 20 minutes and then finally confessed..."I had no clue what was happening..I've never had a guy open a door for me before...never even dawned on me." We both laughed (and I felt sad because my wife is an AMAZING woman and deserves that respect...SHAME ON YOU PREVIOUS MEN IN HER LIFE....hehe)

PS: Thanks Mom for teaching me manners, etiquette and chivalry.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
chivalry is not dead, you just need to find good men and women who still behave that way. 

I certainly try.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

I'm not a big fan of chivalry as many of you may have guessed from my posts. The concept maintains gender roles I think are unhealthy. I think many of the things you listed in your post from 1 to 10 are things nice people do for each other. I like nice people. I like my partner to be a nice person. I don't need to call it chivalry.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well being chivalrous is all well and good when it is received honorably. I've been reading a lot lately about doing favors for attractive people. Or not doing favors without expectation of some thing in return. I'm getting a grip on my doormat tendencies. 

Now this has nothing to do with my marriage relationship. Wife does not walk all over me, therefore I can't be a doormat. On the other hand the aerobics instructor at my gym is another personality all together. Chivalry would be wasted on her. 

One other thing, how did forehead kissing get on the list? I guess that is not for height challenged guys. 
MN


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

I don't know if I would call it chivalry, so much as just common decency and respect. My husband is very respectful and I love that, but I view many things on the list as things women should do, too. Holding the door open for others, calling when you say you'll call, not playing games, and so on are just things everyone(men and woman) should do. I hold the door open a lot for others because it's just a nice thing to do. I'v given up my seat on the train because someone else needed it more than I did. I gave my cousin my jacket, since she was cold and I felt fine. I am a woman and appreciate when people are kind/respectful to me, but it doesn't mean I can't do those things for others as well. I don't expect only men to act in this kind of respectful manner, as I would hope women step up, too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Mr. Nail said:


> Now this has nothing to do with my marriage relationship. *Wife does not walk all over me, therefore I can't be a doormat. On the other hand the aerobics instructor at my gym is another personality all together. Chivalry would be wasted on her. *


I feel what you speak is a legitimate assessment ...... there are many unkind or inconsiderate people walking around....how many take the time to say a simple "thank you" -when a kindness was done for them.....offer a handshake ..there is a reason *trust* is so hard to come by...our many experiences have shaped the distrust in others... 

In a world where it's now "acceptable" to dump someone in a text message.. ..after all.. everyone else does it....so it must be OK...we know someone who did this after 5 yrs dating.. no explanation.. his GF was crushed, she came to us for solace not knowing why he did this. Cowardly I say. 

I guess I see less & less honorable behaviors in our younger generation, in society as a whole.....the standards have been brought very low... so when I see the Honorable.. . I am moved by it... 

Having learned too much on this forum I suppose.. to taint my worldview one might say....I can't help but think.. "Pick up Artist" sites/ books / articles is where many men get their ideas how to capture the women they want...half of this is likely the male ego boost even.....and some would down right







on any notion of Gentleman behaviors, that is catering TOO MUCH to the female after all.. 

I've read enough from the other side to make me cringe ..thank you. 

So much of this has become our NORM...overshadowing what I am speaking about on this thread...it's underlying message really.. 

Are we really putting another first if it's not leading , investing to aid a relationship forward...obviously we are not going to do all that if it's just for a night of pleasure... and the disdain for marriage today... the jokes made.. the warnings... "don't be a fool young man"... I would suspect the more chivalrous men are far more likely to see value & merit in the taking of the woman's hand.. over those who are not... 

And yes...this can go both ways.. and should.. yet I am not offended by the word or it's history hanging on the man to treat his lady with care..... I find beautiful things there.. and I enjoy reading the articles.. 

Yes...we women need to DO & show kindness just as well.... Heck.. I am ALL for treating our men like they are the center of our world,. who wouldn't want to give back [email protected]#... 

My thread below shows my passion about just that... not one to suck it up & only expect it from the Man..I expect just as much from myself - to inspire that relationship! 

Many of you were brought up this way (those who responded)...so influence plays it's role that you've carried through the generations.... happy to hear it's still going strong... :smthumbup:



> *One other thing, how did forehead kissing get on the list? I guess that is not for height challenged guys.
> MN*


it just happened to be on another list I clicked on...I just didn't post the link..not something I came up with.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

In my own informal surveys I've queried men and women about whether a man or woman would jump in front of a car to save a woman or child. Almost all men AND women agree that man would before a woman. 

nuff said. I'll save you, you're welcome.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Pooh Bear
Its tricky. Holding a door can be simple politeness, or it can be exhibiting a social pecking order. Maybe it has to do with how you smile when you do it?

Social interactions are really complex.




Pooh Bear said:


> I'm not a big fan of chivalry as many of you may have guessed from my posts. The concept maintains gender roles I think are unhealthy. I think many of the things you listed in your post from 1 to 10 are things nice people do for each other. I like nice people. I like my partner to be a nice person. I don't need to call it chivalry.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
as I've posted before: imagine the end of Titanic with the genders reversed......




Runs like Dog said:


> In my own informal surveys I've queried men and women about whether a man or woman would jump in front of a car to save a woman or child. Almost all men AND women agree that man would before a woman.
> 
> nuff said. I'll save you, you're welcome.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I love a bit of chivalry. Ok a lot. 

Like pooh bear said, though it can also be interpreted as just being a nice person. 

I'm nice to him, he's nice to me. We do tend to be nice in some traditional type ways though. He does get the car if it's raining- however there is a social expectation for women to look a certain way. And if I've spent 30 minutes getting ready it would a shame to get wet and ruin my makeup and hair.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Pooh Bear
> Its tricky. Holding a door can be simple politeness, or it can be exhibiting a social pecking order. Maybe it has to do with how you smile when you do it?
> 
> Social interactions are really complex.


I agree. I have had both men and women hold the door for me and I do the same. It's a nice gesture. But yes, social interactions are complex.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I love a bit of chivalry. Ok a lot.
> 
> Like pooh bear said, though it can also be interpreted as just being a nice person.
> 
> I'm nice to him, he's nice to me. We do tend to be nice in some traditional type ways though. He does get the car if it's raining- however there us a social expectation for women to look a certain way. And if I've spent 30 minutes getting ready it would a shame to get wet and ruin my makeup and hair.


Really? I'm surprised, Little Deer.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I love chivalry, it's the gentlemanly thing to do and it's romantic. Nothing wrong with a good dose of old fashioned romance.

Hubby was chivalrous when we were dating, and still is today - I loved it then and I love it now. He really courted me and did all those things - held the door open, pulled out my chair, held my hand when we crossed the road...*sigh*. I lapped it right up.

It's something that's becoming less and less common, which is a shame.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Probably not much of a shock but I do all 10. It's a rare occasion that a woman will be rude about kind gestures but does happen. 

Where I see some men and women getting it wrong is how it's impliemented. The quote "I will only be a gentlemen when I'm with a lady" misses the point. I am a gentlemen cause it's a right thing to do not because it gains me favor with someone. I open doors for men, women, children..... Not trying to impress anyone


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> Really? I'm surprised, Little Deer.


With which bit? That I bow to social expectations of how women should look? 

Or that I like chivalry?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I hold the door for anyone. Not a social pecking order, it's just how people who were raised by humans behave in Tennessee. If you're struggling with something heavy, I'll offer to help. I don't care if you have a vagina or a penis. If you look female, you'll be called "Ma'am". If you look like a dude, you'll be called "Sir". I don't have time or the inclination to figure out which of the 58 gender identifications you feel you associate with. If someone doesn't like manners they might wish to avoid my state. If politeness pisses someone off, perhaps they can find a nearby tree to hug until they feel better.


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## Angelou (Oct 21, 2014)

H is that way. But also I hold doors for ppl, let you merge on the lane, say excuse me, offer to help, etc.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> as I've posted before: imagine the end of Titanic with the genders reversed......


Of course, it was different back then. Women were kind of seen on par with children. It would be interesting to look at that in depth and analyze the complexities of it. Women didn't have a lot of rights in societies then. If the Titanic happened today do you think the same standards would apply? 

And women make sacrifices too. If the choice were between my life and my child's life I would give up my life for him. No question.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> With which bit? That I bow to social expectations of how women should look?
> 
> Or that I like chivalry?


Chivalry. I think we all kind of give in to some extent the expectations of how a woman should look. I like feeling pretty.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> I hold the door for anyone. Not a social pecking order, it's just how people who were raised by humans behave in Tennessee. If you're struggling with something heavy, I'll offer to help. I don't care if you have a vagina or a penis. If you look female, you'll be called "Ma'am". If you look like a dude, you'll be called "Sir". I don't have time or the inclination to figure out which of the 58 gender identifications you feel you associate with. If someone doesn't like manners they might wish to avoid my state. If politeness pisses someone off, perhaps they can find a nearby tree to hug until they feel better.


Yeah, they're so friendly in the south. I visited a friend in North Carolina and someone was telling me about "porch sitting." Sounds kind of nice. Sitting outside and the whole neighborhood just hangs out together.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I love displays of manners, chivalry and consideration! My husband is this way. He always has been. I feel similarly to Anonymous - in my eyes these things aren't exclusive to men. As for the list from the article and in terms of my husband... 




SimplyAmorous said:


> 1. Holding the door.
> 
> My husband will do this for me - as well as other men and women.
> 
> ...



I guess to me, in a marriage, it can be the little things that display consideration ...what do I offer him in return? I'll ensure there's bottled water and a snack in the car when he's out on the road all day. I'll do the airport run when he needs to travel, because I think it's nicer for him and I like being around him. Yet he doesn't assume that I'll drive to the airport and always thanks me - he doesn't need to and could consider it a given but there's something considerate in the fact that he doesn't. Maybe it's just that he doesn't take me for granted? I do take pride in ensuring he always has travel sized toiletries at the ready too. There's something about those little bottles of shampoo and deodorants that brings out the best in me! Gotta love little bottles.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Love this type of man  It is the norm in my life to be surrounded by this type of man, my dad, brothers, friends, partners etc.



> 1. Holding the door.
> *
> Yes, always and he then holds it for others that are going through at the same time or at least passes the holding of the door to the next person.*
> 
> ...


It is nice to read the other men's comments here, Mr H is a true Gentleman and he also says his mum taught him this.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> Chivalry. I think we all kind of give in to some extent the expectations of how a woman should look. I like feeling pretty.


Yes I know it's social conditioning. But I like it. I guess for a lot of different reasons. I see chivalrous men as those who are really respectful to women. So that makes me feel safe.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Holland said:


> Love this type of man  It is the norm in my life to be surrounded by this type of man, my dad, brothers, friends, partners etc.
> 
> 
> 
> It is nice to read the other men's comments here, Mr H is a true Gentleman and he also says his mum taught him this.


Sounds like I'm alot like him. I would find it a far more struggle not to do these things than to do them. I would say I more learned from my fathers treatment of my mother personally. 

Glad you have a good guy :smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

frusdil said:


> I love chivalry, it's the gentlemanly thing to do and it's romantic. *Nothing wrong with a good dose of old fashioned romance.*
> 
> Hubby was chivalrous when we were dating, and still is today - I loved it then and I love it now. He really courted me and did all those things - held the door open, pulled out my chair, held my hand when we crossed the road...*sigh*. I lapped it right up.
> 
> *It's something that's becoming less and less common, which is a shame*.


I, too, look upon it as "old Fashioned Romance"... and feel it's less common today.. I really enjoy watching old movies many times where this sort of behavior was common... I just don't see it as much today, even though others seem to suggest it is still common. 

I resonate with these quotes....








....

This one is obviously fed up with much of the gaming







commonplace today...to say this doesn't "affect" our young people's attitudes - seriously! 










But Yes..I feel like this.. 










And may I add this *>>*







...feeling this way doesn't take away that we still love & LONG to get down & dirty -when time has given us a foundation to build upon, when it's something lasting & true.. Hell yeah! I just can't shake that many beautiful things -that enhance trust & goodness in relationships have gotten lost, never given a thought in modern times.. and yes.. it's a shame.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm not a big fan of chivalry as many of you may have guessed from my posts. The concept maintains gender roles I think are unhealthy. I think many of the things you listed in your post from 1 to 10 are things nice people do for each other. I like nice people. I like my partner to be a nice person. I don't need to call it chivalry.


I don't know why, but I find your post refreshing in some ways...because you're right...many of those things are being nice...but there's a deeper part of chivalry. It's rooted in being the provider/taking care of your family/loved ones etc. And that's partially why I find some sadness in your post.

Socially, economically, opportunistically, laws etc....in all of those ways there should be no difference between the genders...but lets be honest....men and women aren't the SAME. Equal....100%...but still different.

If a person pulls out a gun on a family...I would expect the father/husband to jump in front and block his family from harm. I would expect the man to take on certain burdens. I believe in certain gender roles....and let me be specific...I believe in certain gender roles FOR ME. Not for my wife. When there's 2 feet of snow in the driveway..I clear it. I clear off the cars 90% of the time. I mow the lawn 99% of the time. I do all the home remodeling jobs in the house. It's NOT because I don't think my wife is capable...I know she is..it's because I see it as MY responsibility.

If it's raining outside and we're at the mall....I drop my family off at the door, then go park the car, then go get the car and pick my family up at the door. NOT because my wife can't get wet or handle the rain..but because I ENJOY taking care of her. I'll take on going through the rain so she doesn't have to. PS this attitude permeates how I treat her in every way...including sexually. I make sure she's happy and content in life. I see ALL of that as being chivalrous. I'll send her flowers to work as a "just because". I'll get the door for her when I can.....if for some reason I can't....I apologize for it. She doesn't expect it...but I know she appreciates it.

It's all ways I show her my love for her. I'm also very high in my psychology for protecting others, especially women and children. So that permeates into my actions. Yes, dropping my wife at the door when it's raining is "protecting" her in a way.

Gender differences aren't bad...as long as they don't tread on equality. Equality in our society is the most important, but that doesn't mean men can't open a door for a woman.

When my wife steps through the door I opened for her...I don't see a weak individual who NEEDS help. I see a strong, vibrant, smart, funny, gorgeous woman who DESERVES me doing things to make her life easier and better.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> Of course, it was different back then. Women were kind of seen on par with children. It would be interesting to look at that in depth and analyze the complexities of it. Women didn't have a lot of rights in societies then. If the Titanic happened today do you think the same standards would apply?


I would hope it would be the same...except in REALITY..(not the movie)...the rich got off first more than the poor....it was more based on socio-economic standing than gender (unfortunately).

But, let's look at the movie scenario...I'd hope that all of the children would be saved first, then their mothers (because they are critical for caring for said child), then the single women, then the old and then the able bodied men.



> And women make sacrifices too. If the choice were between my life and my child's life I would give up my life for him. No question.


WITHOUT A DOUBT!! I completely agree with you.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm a pretty traditional guy of "a certain age", so of course I do these things. But I have a short story to tell that relates to this.

My adult kids (four) range from the (too) free-spirited adventurer to a rock-solid somewhat OCD gay man to an atheist anarchist mom to a very traditional artistic daughter of 18. Just to show that it takes all kinds.

I got a call a couple of days ago from this guy who's studying theater out of state who has been friends with D18 for a long time. He was talking about being in Texas shortly (while I'm thinking "and you're telling me this why?") and sprung on me that he was going to ask D18 to be his girlfriend.

Now, I'm traditional but I'm not THAT traditional. My daughter is an adult and can make her own choices about who she's going to date. I'm not sure I've even heard of this before, asking the dad to simply date. But at the same time I felt honored, and I admired his guts in making what I'm sure was a difficult call. My wife couldn't keep it to herself and called D18 who was thrilled. She likes this guy too and always wanted a guy who would do something like this.

Hassles of an LDR aside (which is for them to work out anyways), I'm pretty sure THIS is a guy who'll treat my daughter with utmost respect.

Of course, I was tempted to tell him "no".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I don't know why, but I find your post refreshing in some ways...because you're right...many of those things are being nice...*but there's a deeper part of chivalry. It's rooted in being the provider/taking care of your family/loved ones etc. And that's partially why I find some sadness in your post.*
> 
> *Socially, economically, opportunistically, laws etc....in all of those ways there should be no difference between the genders...but lets be honest....men and women aren't the SAME. Equal....100%...but still different.*
> 
> ...










I so appreciate your post here Dad&Hubby.... it expresses everything I KNOW my husband *FEELS* ...and strongly...as you said "an attitude" that permeates, it's like his internal make up to BE this way.. to love THIS WAY...it can't be separated from who HE is- in relation to these gender roles.. I so look up to men for feeling just as you described... to me, this is terribly balanced in every way.... it's WHY we love men *like this*, it overflows in us.. it's a beautiful dance really. 

I do get my butt out there & help with inches of snow on our driveway though.. ours is 750 ft long, uphill & if we don't clean it...we can't get out of it! ....his truck died last week with the plow on it..rod right through the engine, oil spilled all over the driveway....he hasn't got to switching it over yet... Our driveway is a "work out" .... we hand all the kids a shovel & it still takes a couple hrs.... we do what we have to do..."teamwork".. Just want winter to be over already!



> *Dad&Hubby said*: *It's all ways I show her my love for her. I'm also very high in my psychology for protecting others, especially women and children. So that permeates into my actions. Yes, dropping my wife at the door when it's raining is "protecting" her in a way.
> 
> Gender differences aren't bad...as long as they don't tread on equality. Equality in our society is the most important, but that doesn't mean men can't open a door for a woman.
> 
> When my wife steps through the door I opened for her...I don't see a weak individual who NEEDS help. I see a strong, vibrant, smart, funny, gorgeous woman who DESERVES me doing things to make her life easier and better*.


When MEN express how they feel HERE and why.. it goes over so much better than my attempting to explain it... Your wife is very blessed ! Thank you for this post. 



> *GTdad said*: *I'm not sure I've even heard of this before, asking the dad to simply date. But at the same time I felt honored, and I admired his guts in making what I'm sure was a difficult call.* My wife couldn't keep it to herself and called D18 who was thrilled. She likes this guy too and always wanted a guy who would do something like this.
> 
> Hassles of an LDR aside (which is for them to work out anyways), *I'm pretty sure THIS is a guy who'll treat my daughter with utmost respect*.


 Love that story !


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I so appreciate your post here Dad&Hubby.... it expresses everything I KNOW my husband *FEELS* ...and strongly...as you said "an attitude" that permeates, it's like his internal make up to BE this way.. to love THIS WAY...it can't be separated from who HE is- in relation to these gender roles.. I so look up to men for feeling just as you described... to me, this is terribly balanced in every way.... it's WHY we love men *like this*, it overflows in us.. it's a beautiful dance really.
> 
> I do get my butt out there & help with inches of snow on our driveway though.. ours is 750 ft long, uphill & if we don't clean it...we can't get out of it! ....his truck died last week with the plow on it..rod right through the engine, oil spilled all over the driveway....he hasn't got to switching it over yet... Our driveway is a "work out" .... we hand all the kids a shovel & it still takes a couple hrs.... we do what we have to do..."teamwork".. Just want winter to be over already!
> 
> ...


Thank you Simply...but I don't feel like there's anything special to it....It's the way men SHOULD be. It's how I'm raising my boys...My oldest is with his mom more so...so I don't get to have the impact on him that I want, but I can still hope he's gotten enough from when he was younger. My two younger boys WILL be chivalrous gentlemen.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> I would hope it would be the same...except in REALITY..(not the movie)...the rich got off first more than the poor....it was more based on socio-economic standing than gender (unfortunately).


Not exactly. On the Titanic, the survival rate for men was 20%, for children it was 52%, and for women it was 74%.

Breaking it out by class, third class women were 41% more likely to survive than first class men. And third class men were twice as likely to survive than second class men.

Most of that kind of chivalry is gone. Modern cruise ships evacuate by assigning lifeboat space based on room number. Everyone has an assigned seat and they evacuate based on first come, first evacuated. That makes evacuation faster and saves lives. But, when the Costa Condordia sank in 2012, losing 32 lives out of the 4,000+ aboard, several columnists and talking heads bemoaned that "women and children first" wasn't the procedure followed in evacuating the ship.

Personally, I am occasionally chivalrous with my wife, whom I have an arrangement with and feelings for. But I am enough of a feminist to reject the notion that I have obligations toward women I don't know.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> *Not exactly. On the Titanic, the survival rate for men was 20%, for children it was 52%, and for women it was 74%.*
> 
> Breaking it out by class, third class women were 41% more likely to survive than first class men. And third class men were twice as likely to survive than second class men.


 You must have found those figures here.... Titanic Disaster: Official Casualty Figures and Commentary













> *BronzeTorpedo said:*
> Most of that kind of chivalry is gone. Modern cruise ships evacuate by assigning lifeboat space based on room number. Everyone has an assigned seat and they evacuate based on first come, first evacuated. That makes evacuation faster and saves lives. But, when the Costa Condordia sank in 2012, losing 32 lives out of the 4,000+ aboard, several columnists and talking heads bemoaned that "women and children first" wasn't the procedure followed in evacuating the ship.
> 
> Personally, I am occasionally chivalrous with my wife, whom I have an arrangement with and feelings for.* But I am enough of a feminist to reject the notion that I have obligations toward women I don't know*.


There are a # of people who feel Feminism has killed Chivalry.. just google those 2 words together....and start reading... yeah opening up a can of worms here..... this is why people don't like the WORD, so I have come to learn...(more like HATE, want it destroyed in fact) 

I guess it's all in how one looks at it...One thing I have gleamed in reading these articles is.. I am more a Traditionalist ...so this is WHY the word does not offend me .... this, however, doesn't win me much understanding with the Feminists... I also prefer more Traditionally minded men. 

This is a quote I saved from one of the articles...

*"Feminists want men to treat women as equals; Traditionalists want men to treat women like ladies"*... 










Some of the articles... 

*1. *Chivalry Must Die: On Women's Expectations and Men's Obligations â€” Everyday Feminism

*2.* Do you want chivalry or equality? Yes?

I read one article speaking of the rape culture that stated "*The word “chivalry” is to feminism as the word “feminist” is to patriarchy.*"...talk about damning!! 

*3*. Chivalry Vs. Feminism 

*4. *Chivalry Is Dead, Long Live Feminism-this was speaking about Street harrassment, cat calls..a video of women walking through New York for 10hrs. 



> The reality is these freedoms have too often come at the expense of all values and traditions. We’ve in effect thrown the helpful social mores out with the old-fashioned bathwater. But it’s the modern feminist movement, which ushered away any hint of traditional chivalry and gendered expectations, that’s in part to blame. Certainly few want to return to an age when gender roles were excessively rigid, but feminists have gone to extremes and encouraged a culture that undermines healthy gender relationships. Men who hold doors are now viewed as part of the patriarchal society. And girls are expected to just “be one of the guys.”
> 
> But gender roles helped men and women and in times past allowed the sexes to better navigate the sometimes-rough waters of romance, courtship, marriage, and sex. Feminists view the chivalry and social mores of previous generations as anachronistic. But the reality is these traditional customs of giving up a seat for a woman on a train, or accompanying a woman in public, weren’t all rooted in sexism. They were social structures to help make men more respectful of women and to curb this kind of inappropriate behavior.
> 
> It might not have been perfect, but it had a purpose. Today’s dismissal of gender differences instead creates confusion, disappointment, and often more opportunity for harassment.


*5.* This article starts out like this ..Death to Chivalry, Long Live Politeness!



> Should we give chivalry another chance? No thanks. Chivalry is an archaic term that is only necessary if you think women are fragile posies who must be protected by self-proclaimed knights in shining armor. Letting go of the sexist word doesn't mean men shouldn't be polite and respectful, obviously. It means that people should look out for each other because we're all human beings — even those of us who have vaginas that some people still think should be guarded by "gentlemen." F*ck that.



*6*. A man lashing out ...Chivalry Is Dead Because Women Killed It


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I am a feminist and I adore men that show chivalry, the two are not mutually exclusive and IMHO a very good mix.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Holland said:


> I am a feminist and I adore men that show chivalry, the two are not mutually exclusive and IMHO a very good mix.


This is a really nice article to bring them together... she lays out the problems though even admitting a little GUILT for delighting in the acts of kindness. 

Rebecca Kamm: Can chivalry and feminism coexist? 



> Confession: I'm a little bit/very charmed by chivalrous, gentlemanly men. As long as it's not some sort of agenda-laden, playboy act, I find certain gestures touching. ....
> 
> Is appreciation of such old-fashionedness very anti-feminist of me? Probably, if you get right down to it. After all, I want to be treated as an equal in every single respect, but there I am delighting over acts that indicate I can't manage alone.
> 
> ...


She speaks of a combination of chivalry and feminism - calling it >> "Equality Chivalry"...though some would not call that "chivalry". 

I was reading the replies down below this article.. this one woman says ....


> " I guess it's different for everyone, but for me, chivalry just makes me feel self-conscious and uncomfortable. The one I notice most is where the man stands aside and gestures for me to get on the bus first. It makes me think '*oh that's right, I have a vagina. I almost forgot!*' And then I awkwardly get on while smiling at him and wondering whether you're supposed to say thanks for something you didn't want and don't appreciate.
> 
> All in all, my opinion is that chivalry should stop being gender-restricted. All people should do nice things for all people - like holding the door when someone's behind you etc. Let elderly people and those with small children get on the bus first, otherwise just line up and get on in that order!"


Now maybe that Man didn't even THINK LIKE THAT...why did she jump to assume [email protected]#.... Seriously, I can't even imagine my brain going there -with any man offering a nice gesture , to go 1st, etc....(surely her attitude showed on her face) ... Jeez!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Personal said:


> Perhaps I am mistaken but as I understand it Chivalry and Knights were largely redundant by the end of the 15th Century.
> 
> *Ten Commandments of Chivalry*
> 
> ...


I looked up the "Feudal System"...all about Kings, Bishops, Barons, Lords, then 90% were Peasants or Serfs..who worked hard & died young...The kings believed they were given the right to rule by God...

So basically if your born Poor, your Fcked!...you'll work yourself to an early grave. And.. oh ...obey the church...

I haven't been a Christian for a long long time...I am very thankful for living in this country with the separation of Church & State & for all those who fought for Religious freedom, from it's oppression...I see THEM as Hero's... 

Thank you for the replies...it's as I thought... it's the history... it's looked upon with disdain, needed cut out.. though some of those things on the list I still find honorable.. (3, 4, 8, 9 & depending 10) 

I have to say...I have only focused on the ROMANCE of it/ "courtly love" & all.... even with it's shady history.... I guess we all see what we want to see...they call it "Chivalric Romance"...oh well.. I guess that's typical of me.


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## mjalex (Mar 5, 2015)

I do believe a portion of it is common courtesy, though chivalry is definitely losing its hold on society. 
I think it's very important to be considerate to those around you, not only to those of the opposite gender, but to humanity as a whole.

Regardless, selfishness is rather prominent, and it isn't too difficult to hold a door open for someone, as it takes just a few seconds. 

Going back to chivalrous roots would be excellent! If it become a standard way of life, the world would be a better place.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm not a big fan of chivalry as many of you may have guessed from my posts. The concept maintains gender roles I think are unhealthy. I think many of the things you listed in your post from 1 to 10 are things nice people do for each other. I like nice people. I like my partner to be a nice person. I don't need to call it chivalry.


Chivalry is not gender specific. Though we do tend to equate chivalry as a male trait, it is not specific to men, as you yourself have pointed out.


Men, chivalrous, good men, if you encounter a woman who doesn't appreciate your chivalrous behavior, nod and move on. Feel sorry for her that her life has been without example of good and decent men and so she ascribes sinister intent on good behavior.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Chivalry is not gender specific. Though we do tend to equate chivalry as a male trait, it is not specific to men, as you yourself have pointed out.
> 
> 
> Men, chivalrous, good men, if you encounter a woman who doesn't appreciate your chivalrous behavior, nod and move on. Feel sorry for her that her life has been without example of good and decent men and so she ascribes sinister intent on good behavior.


It's rare. Only had two such incidents happen to me. One random woman and once on a date. You're right you shrug your shoulders and go ok on to the next one. My favorite part of the date story though was the waitress who watched my date make a deal out of pulling out her chair. You could read all over her face she just wanted to slap the woman for making a deal out of nothing lol. I should have maybe asked her out :smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> It's rare. Only had two such incidents happen to me. One random woman and once on a date. You're right you shrug your shoulders and go ok on to the next one. My favorite part of the date story though was the waitress who watched my date make a deal out of pulling out her chair. *You could read all over her face she just wanted to slap the woman for making a deal out of nothing lol. I should have maybe asked her out* :smthumbup:



As your pretend Internet sister I would say...dude, move on.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

Anonymous07 said:


> I don't know if I would call it chivalry, so much as just common decency and respect.


This. To me, the "chivalry" described in the OP is just... not being an a-hole, or being considerate. I hope people would do these things for anyone, not just for a woman because "omg I'm such a gentleman maybe she will have sex with me now".


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't consider myself a "gentleman", but several of these things I follow, but for different reasons:

1. Holding the door
(It's just rude not to, not like I'm going to walk in and slam the door in someone else's face... but no I'm not going to walk around my car to let a lady out of my car, I would say "its got a door handle woman!" Use it!)

2. Calling when he says he will call.
(Tis just being reliable and a man of your word)

7. Offering a jacket.
(If I can handle the cold and she's shaking/shivering sure, if not meh)

10. He cares about your opinions, and shows respect.
(Errr, depends on the woman, a woman like yourself I value your opinion, many women though... they don't deserve any respect from me as they have not and will never earn it)



> Do you love chivalry, or do you think it's dead?


I think it's all bullsh-t and should be replaced by simple common courtesy between fellow human beings.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Chivalry is not gender specific. Though we do tend to equate chivalry as a male trait, it is not specific to men, as you yourself have pointed out.
> 
> Men, chivalrous, good men, if you encounter a woman who doesn't appreciate your chivalrous behavior, nod and move on. Feel sorry for her that her life has been without example of good and decent men and so she ascribes sinister intent on good behavior.


Chivalry originated as noblesse oblige. Knights were the among the most powerful members of society in physical, political, and economic terms. Chivalry acknowledged that fact and dictated that knights shouldn't abuse their positions and should show consideration for the less powerful. Eventually, it morphed into the romantic concept we think of today of men pulling out women's chairs and opening doors for them. And many have morphed it even further beyond men showing consideration for women to the point of men being obligated to women.

Yes, it's specific to men. As a man, I've never had my chair pulled out for me, regardless of how polite my dining companions were. Ditto for car doors. When women are polite to men, or men are polite to each other, it's not chivalry. It's just courtesy.

But the world has changed. The distribution of legal, political, and economic power is fairly equal between the sexes. Therefore, the romantic notion of a chivalrous man showing courtesy to a damsel in distress has become obsolete.

I'm a courteous man. I'll hold doors open for people right behind me. I'll give up my seat on a bus to an elderly person. And I don't consider sex when I do it. But when I see a man holding open a door interminably so that the woman halfway across the parking lot won't have to touch the door handle, or I see an elderly man with a cane give up his seat on the bus for a young woman heading to yoga class, I see chumps living in a world that no longer exists.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

batsociety said:


> This. To me, the "chivalry" described in the OP is just... not being an a-hole, or being considerate. I hope people would do these things for anyone, not just for a woman because "omg I'm such a gentleman maybe she will have sex with me now".


Hmmmm, one component of what makes a man's behavior chivalrous....is that he doesn't link his behavior to "getting sex".


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

You know, it seems like I recall reading that the origin of letting a woman walk through the door first was in the event bad guys were lurking on the other side, _she'd_ be the one to get the business end of the sword, giving the knight time to draw his.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> Yes, it's specific to men. As a man, I've never had my chair pulled out for me


Really, not even in a restaurant?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

BronzeTorpedo said:


> *As a man, I've never had my chair pulled out for me, regardless of how polite my dining companions were. *Ditto for car doors.
> 
> .



When you start wearing dresses and carrying a handbag or purse, perhaps things will change for you? 

You've never been on crutches, never been carrying something and your wife jumped ahead to get the door open? Never brought in groceries and your wife held the door open? Never walked out the door after your wife brushed off your suit jacket? If not, I'm sorry that your woman has so little care for you.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Really, not even in a restaurant?


Yes. If someone is being paid, he will pull out my chair as an act of service. I've also had valet parking attendants open my car door. But that's not an act of courtesy. It's their job.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> When you start wearing dresses and carrying a handbag or purse, perhaps things will change for you?


I'll get back to you.



> You've never been on crutches, never been carrying something and your wife jumped ahead to get the door open? Never brought in groceries and your wife held the door open? Never walked out the door after your wife brushed off your suit jacket? If not, I'm sorry that your woman has so little care for you.


Serves me right for using the word "never" on TAM. Yes, I've had people, including women, help me when I was burdened. If that's the kind of chivalry that we're discussing, then you can ignore everything I've previously written on subject.

In fact, I will dispute the premise of the thread that chivalry is reduced in the modern world. I can't recall any instances of men failing to hold the door open for a woman in a wheel chair. By that standard, I would say that modern men are every bit as chivalrous as our 16th century ancestors.

I thought we were discussing whether men should open doors for women because they're women. Some on this thread have stated that they were trained in that kind of behavior and that they have trained their sons in that kind of behavior. I think that kind of chivalry is reduced and for good reason.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I can't recall any instances of men failing to hold the door open for a woman in a wheel chair.


Last time I tried to help a woman on a wheelchair she was sweating, struggling to push herself up a slope, so I offered to help and she just went "Get out of the fking way or I'll run you over"

I was in a good mood that day otherwise I would have grabbed her wheelchair and pushed her back downhill. Forget about courtesy let alone chivalry when some people are just fkwits.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Proud moment was walking up to the mall and my 4 year old (at the time) runs forward passes and older woman in front of us so he could hold the door for this stranger and my wife.
> 
> .


My seven years old daughter loves doing the same thing. I guess it takes kindness and good manners, no matter what your gender is.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*It's rooted in being the provider/taking care of your family/loved ones etc. And that's partially why I find some sadness in your post.*

I’m not sure why what I said would be sad. I think that when you’re in a family you are supposed to take care of each other. Please don’t bring children into the world if you are not willing to provide for them financially, emotionally, spiritually, and the multiple other ways that children need us. And women provide for and take care of their families too.

Men have traditionally been seen as the sole breadwinner. That can be a burden in some ways and it has also meant that men have not always been overly involved in their kids lives. That is changing – thanks to feminists – and I think it is awesome for dads and kids.

*Socially, economically, opportunistically, laws etc....in all of those ways there should be no difference between the genders...but lets be honest....men and women aren't the SAME. Equal....100%...but still different.*

The reality is that “different but equal” has never meant equality. In the Southern US when there was school segregation black schools were getting less funding. They toted “different but equal” too but that never panned out. I think that there are some differences between men and women but they are not as stark as we would like to believe.

I think it’s nice that you make an effort to make your wife feel special. It is important partners make each other feel that way. I think there are nice things we do for each other and it is awesome. It would be nice if everyone were nice. 
The problem with the concept of chivalry is that it creates an idea that women need to be protected and men are the protectors. Women are seen as the “weaker” sex and then we run into problems when we want to get into leadership roles. An example is Hilary Clinton. People question whether she would be “strong enough” to be President of the US. And the other problem is that when you do actually step outside of that role of being weak and needing protection you are punished for that. You are a b*tch.

I think there is a lot of abuse of women in many cultures. And I’m not talking about interpersonal violence within the family. I am talking about societal abuse. Being a woman is an insult for a man. Women are objectified and expected or forced to wear certain clothing so as to prevent men from losing control. Strong women are b*tches and men who are not dominant in the household are whipped. We do the majority of the housework and take care of the kids the most and are not always appreciated for that work. I think when a man makes us feel special we grab on to that because we do not feel valued in the larger culture around us. And, of course, it is different for every culture. I’m only speaking about the US culture.

I think for some people chivalry is also romantic. Which is fine.

*Men, chivalrous, good men, if you encounter a woman who doesn't appreciate your chivalrous behavior, nod and move on. Feel sorry for her that her life has been without example of good and decent men and so she ascribes sinister intent on good behavior.*

I wonder how often that actually happens. I have never opposed a man pulling my chair out for me or opening a door for me. Those are nice gestures. I would not be happy if he tried to order for me in a restaurant. I also would not be with somebody who asked my parents if he could marry me. I am not my parent’s property.

*I think it's all bullsh-t and should be replaced by simple common courtesy between fellow human beings.*

I agree, RandomDude. 

*The distribution of legal, political, and economic power is fairly equal between the sexes. *

Not really.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> Men have traditionally been seen as the sole breadwinner. That can be a burden in some ways and it has also meant that men have not always been overly involved in their kids lives. That is changing – thanks to feminists – and I think it is awesome for dads and kids.


The problem with this shift is that, to a large degree, it's a zero sum game. Women entering the workforce means they're not caring for children. Yes, fathers pick up some of the slack. But look at the numbers of children in daycare today compared to 50 years ago. That trend is not awesome for dads or kids.



> *The distribution of legal, political, and economic power is fairly equal between the sexes. *
> 
> Not really.


So, you admit that the founding concept of chivalry, that powerful men should take some responsibility for weaker women, is no longer valid, and then turn around and argue that the distribution of power hasn't equalized? Which is it?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> As your pretend Internet sister I would say...dude, move on.


Ohh I did lol my GF is wonderful and loves I open the truck door for her


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*That trend is not awesome for dads or kids.*

Not true. My son is in daycare and he seems to like it. They are trained in early childhood education so they understand how kids work and can provide him with a lot of activity so that he can start learning early. He also is learning socialization with peers. So far, he is an only child so that is important. He is also learning Spanish which I can’t teach him. It's better for him to learn it now because he will learn it faster. He is almost a year. Kids in daycare do really well if you choose the right one. And I am happier because I would not like being a SAHM. Not that that is a bad choice. It works really well for some people and some parents love being stay at home parents. Some dads stay at home now too. I think kids can do well in either setting. 

*So, you admit that the founding concept of chivalry, that powerful men should take some responsibility for weaker women, is no longer valid, and then turn around and argue that the distribution of power hasn't equalized? Which is it?*

Judging from this thread that concept is still alive and well isn’t it? The world is not equal in general. It’s different depending on the culture, of course. It is more equal in the Scandinavian countries. It is terrible in Saudi Arabia. The US has improved a lot but there is still work to do. It takes time to make changes. So let me ask, what makes you think it's equal for men and women?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Pooh Bear said:* *Men have traditionally been seen as the sole breadwinner. That can be a burden in some ways and it has also meant that men have not always been overly involved in their kids lives. That is changing – thanks to feminists – and I think it is awesome for dads and kids.*


I just wanted to say .....I realize my Husband is on the rare side in this.. he is one of those who doesn't see this as a Burden in any way.....he has even *argued FOR IT*...he *prefers* I be in the home, always has - and I dearly appreciate him for his support (emotionally) as I often feel women like myself are only looked down upon in society today, for our lack of contribution.. feminists speak of choice but when the choice is to be a SAHM- with a husband's blessing.. still such women would never been one to aspire to.. our choices are most definitely lessor and not promoting the CAUSE for women. 

When I did work MORE in our earlier years, sometimes he would complain I wasn't home enough & he wanted more time with me.... he'd hit the door & I'd be off with a kiss, 4 -5 days a week... we weren't about to waste our $$ on babysitters / Daycare...it would have defeated the whole purpose of working & saving for that whopping down payment on a house. 

I understand we are in the vast minority in this...though we've always felt it a blessing for our growing family living the Traditional lifestyle ...it does work well for some of us. 

When he comes home every day just a little after 3 pm...the rest of his day is completely FREE & open (as it should be)....so he HAS THAT TIME FOR his kids...their activities, more time for me too! (I have a method for my own madness in getting everything done!).....

Except for those nights he has Projects I can't do.. (working on vehicles, fixing the roof, typical handy man stuff )... so even with a more Traditional set up. .. it just depends... Men can still have plenty of time for their children..

If this is what *we *enjoy, what works for us.. .. isn't this OK ??...we are living the American dream just like anyone else is ... I often get the feeling I need to conform to the more feminist program to be accepted by other women. It wears me down sometimes..


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SA - your husbands sentiments sound a lot like mine post DS #1 being born. Works for us. Yeah, we could have nicer cars and a bigger house, but my W will never forget the years she got to be with our children when they were young and I got the benefits of much less stress and more time to coach my kids sports and do stuff w/ them.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> Not true. My son is in daycare and he seems to like it.


Just my opinion, but in 100 years, people will look back and go why on earth did you have kids to let someone else raise them. And the data will show negative effects.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*feminists speak of choice but when the choice is to be a SAHM- with a husband's blessing.. still such women would never been one to aspire to.. our choices are most definitely lessor and not promoting the CAUSE for women. *

Not true. Feminists stay home with their kids too. I was home the first 5 months of my son’s life. I bet there are feminists on TAM who stay home with their kids. We really need to stop this working mom vs SAHM dialogue. It doesn’t help any of us. Different families want different things and as long as kids get lots of love from lots of different people that is what’s important. My son has so many grandmothers at church. It is fantastic. 

*I understand we are in the vast minority in this...though we've always felt it a blessing for our growing family living the Traditional lifestyle ...it does work well for some of us. *

I don’t know that that is true. There are lots of stay at home parents.

*If this is what we enjoy, what works for us.. .. isn't this OK ??...we are living the American dream just like anyone else is ... I often get the feeling I need to conform to the more feminist program to be accepted by other women. It wears me down sometimes.*

Yes. It’s completely ok. Whatever works for your family is great. I don’t know what you mean by the “feminist program.” You are under the assumption that that requires that you work? I think that that is a myth. I think that feminists have pointed out that staying at home is a privilege. Not all moms can stay home who want to - for various reasons. I feel it is a privilege that I can choose whether to stay home or to work. Why are you insecure about your choice?

*why on earth did you have kids to let someone else raise them. *

My husband and I are raising him. He spends time at a daycare we have chosen. He goes to a church we have chosen. Just because a child goes to daycare does not mean that the parents are not still raising the child. But multiple people can be a part of a child’s education and growing up years. And I think he will benefit from that. He will not be afraid of different types of people. And he will be bi-lingual which I am excited about. He will be able to communicate with even more people than I can. But ultimately, he knows who his parents are. And he knows that we love him.


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> *That trend is not awesome for dads or kids.*
> 
> Not true. My son is in daycare and he seems to like it.


Sorry. I was relying on experts who studied large cohorts of children that didn't include your son.



> Judging from this thread that concept is still alive and well isn’t it? The world is not equal in general. It’s different depending on the culture, of course. It is more equal in the Scandinavian countries. It is terrible in Saudi Arabia. The US has improved a lot but there is still work to do. It takes time to make changes. So let me ask, what makes you think it's equal for men and women?


I almost put the obligatory acknowledgement of women being mistreated in certain parts of the globe, and that I was discussing the West in general, and the US in particular. But I thought it would be needlessly pedantic. Serves me right.

Anyhoo, I base my claim of equality on the general environment. In this country, women can vote, own property, enter into contracts, access the courts, go to school, hold office, enter any profession, etc. They could do most of that before feminism, but any systemic hurdles that existed exclusively for women have been removed over the last several decades. Thus, no need for the obligatory chivalry this thread was started to discuss.


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

*Sorry. I was relying on experts who studied large cohorts of children that didn't include your son.*

Don't get nasty. What experts are you referring to?

Women only obtained those privilages in the US because we fought for them. Suffragists fought really hard to get the right to vote. Read about Susan B Anthony and Alice Paul. We weren't called femininsts until the 60's but they were basically doing the same work. And just because we can hold office does not necessarily mean we will. How many women are in congress? We have never had a woman president. There are very few woman CEO's. Women are always harrassed about their weight. We have to be thin. You see these sitcoms with these heavy set men married to this beautiful, thin, wife. Again, being a woman is an insult for a man. There is a belief among some that women should be submissive to their husbands. We do more of the housework and childcare even when working full time. If you go to church, God is male. Women are killed by their partners more often than men. Why is it important for some men to either deny that there is any inequality or to prove that men are really the victims?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

naiveonedave said:


> SA - your husbands sentiments sound a lot like mine post DS #1 being born. Works for us. Yeah, we could have nicer cars and a bigger house, but my W will never forget the years she got to be with our children when they were young and I got the benefits of much less stress and more time to coach my kids sports and do stuff w/ them.


I'm not here to suggest one lifestyle is better over another...I think people should be happy.. and enjoy their lives & families.. and many of us have a different vision of that & how it plays out.. and it's OK.. 

It just pains me how much I read on this forum against anything Traditional, that's all....being on this side of the fence... I feel the jabs...I have for years here. 

I found this Wonderful website a month ago.. I wish it could always be in this spirit for our differences in how a family raises their children.. 








>>>Stop the Mommy Wars: Empowering Photo Series 












> *Poohbear said*: I don’t know what you mean by the “feminist program.” You are under the assumption that that requires that you work? I think that that is a myth. I think that feminists have pointed out that staying at home is a privilege. Not all moms can stay home who want to - for various reasons. I feel it is a privilege that I can choose whether to stay home or to work. Why are you insecure about your choice?


 I love my choice , this life we've built together...but it's true, I would not feel comfortable around a group of feminist women, I do not feel we have much in common at all.. from this thread to others comments I've read....some feel if the man expected the woman to take his last name, she'd dump him, this makes him a bad man......(I can't fathom why a woman wouldn't want to!).... you said if a man asked your Father for your hand, you'd drop him. I think it's beautiful and respectful, I do not look at these things though the same eyes as many feminists do.. 

Where you see ugliness I see something beautiful.. you would only seek to change me.. or feel I need "enlightened".. I am utterly aware of this.. 

I understand the roots of these things were not so lovely but that's *not the spirit today*.. does this mean nothing... so it doesn't bother me at all.. I am just being honest.. 

Some of the things I have read coming from feminists on this have been outrageously hurtful & damning.. when you read something like this.. it's hard to shake.. ..if you've never heard of this article.. though it did get blasted something awful for it's hate.. the funny thing is.. she also went on how it's OK to be a SAHM and it's a viable choice too.. so why did she speak out of 2 sides of her mouth.. that's the question.. was this just a hair day from Hell....??

I Look Down On Young Women With Husbands And Kids And I’m Not Sorry 



> Every time I hear someone say that feminism is about validating every choice a woman makes I have to fight back vomit.
> 
> Do people really think that a stay at home mom is really on equal footing with a woman who works and takes care of herself? There’s no way those two things are the same. It’s hard for me to believe it’s not just verbally placating these people so they don’t get in trouble with the mommy bloggers.
> 
> ...


 I realize the vast majority of feminists are not like AMY GLASS though!


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## BronzeTorpedo (Dec 17, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> Don't get nasty. What experts are you referring to?


No nastiness intended. I understand that you care primarily about your child. That's understandable. If you believe that daycare is the best option for him then you may well be correct.

But I'm talking about generalities. What is best for children? And the experts that I've read, like John Rosemond and Jenet Jacob Erickson, claim that full time daycare, especially at early ages, isn't as good for children as family care.



> Women only obtained those privilages in the US because we fought for them. Suffragists fought really hard to get the right to vote. Read about Susan B Anthony and Alice Paul. We weren't called femininsts until the 60's but they were basically doing the same work.


The history is irrelevant. We're discussing the USA in the 21st century where all the goals of first wave feminism have been accomplished.



> And just because we can hold office does not necessarily mean we will. How many women are in congress?


There are fewer women in Congress than there are men. Do you think the fact that fewer women run for office than men do is relevant to that fact? Do you think voters should force women to run, or write in female candidates just to even up the statistics?



> We have never had a woman president.


True. We've also never had an albino president. Does that prove systemic discrimination against them? Does the fact that Hillary Clinton is the heavy favorite to be the next president bear considering?



> There are very few woman CEO's.


Again, how many women want to be? Could the fact that more men choose to obtain business degrees than women do have anything to do with the CEO statistics?



> Women are always harrassed about their weight. We have to be thin. You see these sitcoms with these heavy set men married to this beautiful, thin, wife. Again, being a woman is an insult for a man.


Right. And for fat men, life is their oyster, right? I can't even remember the last time I saw or heard a disparaging remark made about fat men.

In sitcoms, the dad may be fat and the wife beautiful, but the dad is more likely to be cast as an idiot who his saintly wife abides. Is the Homer Simpson role an example of the patriarchy portraying men in the best light?



> Women are killed by their partners more often than men.


And men are given harsher sentences than women are when convicted of equivalent crimes.



> Why is it important for some men to either deny that there is any inequality or to prove that men are really the victims?


Let me answer your question with a question. Why are some women so invested in being the victim that they can't countenance the suggestion that the quest for equality has been largely achieved?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

PHTLump...is that you?


----------



## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> I also would not be with somebody who asked my parents if he could marry me. I am not my parent’s property.


I've never heard this take on the custom of asking for someone hand in marriage. Gives me an idea of how people in today's world think. 

It would never occur to me when I got married and he asked for my parents blessing to marry their daughter that he or my parents viewed me as property. 

It did occur to me that asking for their blessing was a way of asking to join our family and a show of great respect for them and an understanding of their traditional values. 

I hope that whomever my daughter chooses to marry will show me the same courtesy and respect. But I have a feeling that's a thing of the past.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pooh Bear said:


> I also would not be with somebody who asked my parents if he could marry me. I am not my parent’s property.


You're reading too much into this. It's nothing more than a courtesy.

And besides, it's not really "asking" in that -- for the overwhelming majority of guys -- any answer other than an affirmative really won't matter either way.



coffee4me said:


> I've never heard this take on the custom of asking for someone hand in marriage. Gives me an idea of how people in today's world think.
> 
> It would never occur to me when I got married and he asked for my parents blessing to marry their daughter that he or my parents viewed me as property.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm not here to suggest one lifestyle is better over another...I think people should be happy.. and enjoy their lives & families.. and many of us have a different vision of that & how it plays out.. and it's OK..
> 
> It just pains me how much I read on this forum against anything Traditional, that's all....being on this side of the fence... I feel the jabs...I have for years here.
> 
> ...


Yes, Amy Glass. I had conservative friends post this article on fb as proof that all feminists are hateful people who hate stay at home moms. I think she is either doing this for attention or money. If you look at the comments there are people telling her clearly that feminism is about choice.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ey? Meh, to me feminism is just another excuse for women to hate men and men to hate women. Dirty word for me, personal experiences. The truth of the ideals may be worthwhile; choice/etc, but it's like religions -> always folks giving it a bad name.

Like some of ex-gf's friends... bah! "I'm a 'feminist'! I'm entitled to this and that and this and that, if I don't get it, I blame men!" Typical women these days in the big city I found. Men aren't much better though judging by the anti-woman spite that comes out of the average man's mouth these days, yet, I don't blame them.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

When my daughter and her then GF were planning their wedding, I teased and joked that they couldn't get married because her GF hadn't asked her father and I for our blessing. My DIL laughed and said something snarky and funny.

But I did put my foot down about her father walking her down the aisle. He was paying for the damn thing so he better get some respect!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Ey? Meh, to me feminism is just another excuse for women to hate men and men to hate women. Dirty word for me, personal experiences. The truth of the ideals may be worthwhile; choice/etc, but it's like religions -> always folks giving it a bad name.
> 
> Like some of ex-gf's friends... bah! "I'm a 'feminist'! I'm entitled to this and that and this and that, if I don't get it, I blame men!" Typical women these days in the big city I found. Men aren't much better though judging by the anti-woman spite that comes out of the average man's mouth these days, yet, I *don't blame them.*



Let's assume that the red pilling MRA wingnuts have a valid and accurate assessment that the past 20 or so years men have been marginalized, minimized, outsourced, used and abused. I know that is a huge stretch but just for the sake of argument and just for a moment let's pretend they're right.

So 20 years of men being treated badly verses HUNDREDS of years of women being treated badly and you don't blame them? Even if what they say is accurate there simply is no comparison between generations of poor treatment and two stinking decades of it. NONE.

Now let's go back to reality. The red Piller's are full of sh!t. They are angry bitter little men who were hurt by a woman and now view all women as a danger to their little bitty heart. So they say they will never marry again. LOL, okay. Are we supposed to be upset about that? Who cares?

SA, you know I adore you but I sure do wish you would stop lumping all feminists as those crazy wacky radicals you come across. I am a feminist and I know a lot of other feminists and now that I think of it, we are all SAHM except for one. So whoever that chick was that you quoted, she doesn't speak for feminists. She speaks for herself.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> So 20 years of men being treated badly verses HUNDREDS of years of women being treated badly and you don't blame them? Even if what they say is accurate there simply is no comparison between generations of poor treatment and two stinking decades of it. NONE.
> 
> Now let's go back to reality. The red Piller's are full of sh!t. They are angry bitter little men who were hurt by a woman and now view all women as a danger to their little bitty heart. So they say they will never marry again. LOL, okay. Are we supposed to be upset about that? Who cares?


So we men must suffer for the sins of our forefathers yes? 

Personally I don't give a flying fk about the dead or the past, reminds me of the folks who hate me because of race due to my ancestors ransacking their ancestors like 800 years ago. Not to mention even in my culture we already had equality between the sexes as it was essential for nomadic cultures to survive. Modernisation/Buddhism/Sedentary cultures ironically destroyed it, and replaced it with this "feminism".

If I'm nice to a lady, and then she just spits out her spite due to what she experienced from my gender from her generation should I go "oh hey, you had bad experiences with men, you are entitled to be a b-tch to me"? Pffft, when it comes to respect whether male or female, I just see human beings, and it's a shame that others do not share my opinion / perspective in this regard.



> SA, you know I adore you but I sure do wish you would stop lumping all feminists as those crazy wacky radicals you come across. I am a feminist and I know a lot of other feminists and now that I think of it, we are all SAHM except for one. So whoever that chick was that you quoted, she doesn't speak for feminists. She speaks for herself.


I don't think she does, nor me, however these crazy wacky radicals - they are everywhere. I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt but even that can only go so far.

Note: I'm a male, I mix within male circles most of the time, sure there are the a$$holes, but then there are the gentlemen, hard-working, respectable men with the natural male instinct to protect and defend women. Yes we do have that instinct, we're not all "rape, bully, and kill", women take advantage of them and hell already we have all this NMMNG crap on TAM and elsewhere to get them to be more assertive. In the end, men just want to love women.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Let's assume that the red pilling MRA wingnuts have a valid and accurate assessment that the past 20 or so years men have been marginalized, minimized, outsourced, used and abused. I know that is a huge stretch but just for the sake of argument and just for a moment let's pretend they're right.
> *
> So 20 years of men being treated badly verses HUNDREDS of years of women being treated badly and you don't blame them? Even if what they say is accurate there simply is no comparison between generations of poor treatment and two stinking decades of it. NONE.*
> 
> ...





This is really sickening if you actually believe that

So how long are we to pay for sins of people who came before me? Who I had no control over? That I never met? That I don't agree with? 

I feel no shame, embarrassment , or rage towards people with outdated ideas in outdated times that have no bearing on me.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Makes me wonder what they teach in these "feminist" books and such, alot of it is very distorted history, yes females did not all the choices available to them in most cultures, sure, but neither did the men.

There were power imbalances sure but it's not like every man from the 20th century and before mistreated their wives/daughters/sisters/cousins/etc... heck, 20 yrs is a very short window too, that's like saying all our fathers and grandfathers are all men who mistreated their wives (our grandmothers and our mothers)


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Pooh Bear said:


> Yes, Amy Glass. I had conservative friends post this article on fb as proof that all feminists are hateful people who hate stay at home moms. I think she is either doing this for attention or money. If you look at the comments there are people telling her clearly that feminism is about choice.


I see her more as a random attention seeker hiding behind feminism than the face of feminism.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> red pilling MRA wingnuts
> 
> So 20 years of men being treated badly verses HUNDREDS of years of women being treated badly
> 
> ...


With this kind of advocating, I can't imagine why feminism isn't getting more male support.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

Hm... seems to be a whole lot of men in here telling women their thoughts and feelings are invalid. Good job at entirely missing the point while proving it at the same time.

It's kind of like when white people tell black people that racism is no longer a problem in America.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> I've never heard this take on the custom of asking for someone hand in marriage. Gives me an idea of how people in today's world think.
> 
> It would never occur to me when I got married and he asked for my parents blessing to marry their daughter that he or my parents viewed me as property.
> 
> It did occur to me that asking for their blessing was a way of asking to join our family and a show of great respect for them and an understanding of their traditional values.


I feel similarly. It wouldn't have occurred this way to me, either. My family wouldn't necessarily be traditional, and my husband and I had already lived together for years, bought a house etc. before getting married but I found out afterwards that he'd taken my parents to breakfast together (they're divorced and this wouldn't be the norm for them) to share his intention to ask to marry me. This was about his feelings, what he felt was 'right' and was intended to be respectful. I was quite taken aback that he did this... and love that he did.

And while I may not accept his jacket for the most part, as I don't wish for _him_ to be cold due to my poor wardrobe planning, I absolutely appreciate that he offers. He knows this too. It's a simple gesture that I find touching, dare I say it's 'warming' unto itself or would that be too cheesy?

Opening doors, offering to help someone out when needed in simple ways, these things are not gender specific. It's just being a little aware of what's happening around you and displaying consideration. Bring it on, I say!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

batsociety said:


> Hm... seems to be a whole lot of men in here telling women their thoughts and feelings are invalid. Good job at entirely missing the point while proving it at the same time.
> 
> It's kind of like when white people tell black people that racism is no longer a problem in America.


Actually it's more like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

But seriously - don't expect us men to bite our tongues when someone goes "we women suffered for hundreds of years and men should suffer now so we can be even!" Especially when it has nothing to do with us. Only thing many of us have in common with those men is that we have penises! The penis - sign of all the world's evils I'm sure!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

batsociety said:


> Hm... seems to be a whole lot of men in here telling women their thoughts and feelings are invalid. Good job at entirely missing the point while proving it at the same time.
> 
> It's kind of like when white people tell black people that racism is no longer a problem in America.


More like telling me I'm a racist cause of what someone whom I never met or knew 200 years ago owned slaves


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> So we men must suffer for the sins of our forefathers yes?
> 
> Personally I don't give a flying fk about the dead or the past, reminds me of the folks who hate me because of race due to my ancestors ransacking their ancestors like 800 years ago. Not to mention even in my culture we already had equality between the sexes as it was essential for nomadic cultures to survive. Modernisation/Buddhism/Sedentary cultures ironically destroyed it, and replaced it with this "feminism".
> 
> ...



In the end, we all want love.

Some women carry severe anger and blame all men. I don't agree with them and here on TAM have called them out on it. I'm not the only woman who does this. I'm pretty blatant, other women are more subtle but those angry women do get called on lumping all men into one nasty pile.

The difference that I wish I could make you understand is that women of my generation, I'm 52, did have to fight for our rights. And so it is very fresh in our minds and when we hear these red pull wingnuts I just want to hit someone! 

I don't blame men for the attitudes prevalent when I was a kid and becoming an adult. But I sure as hell do blame a man when he shows that same attitude.



> But seriously - don't expect us men to bite our tongues when someone goes "we women suffered for hundreds of years and men should suffer now so we can be even!" Especially when it has nothing to do with us. Only thing many of us have in common with those men is that we have penises! The penis - sign of all the world's evils I'm sure!


Actually the penis, historically, is a sign of power, not evil. 

No one is asking men to suck it up and suffer in order to even things out to make up for thousands of years of subjugation. That would be absurd.

You missed my point entirely and the point was that the red pill guys are off their rocker thinking they are getting the short end of the stick now a days. But even if they were, comparatively, what is supposedly happening to them is nothing compared to what has been and in some countries continues to be complete subjugation of half the population. So cry me a river red pill!



Wolf1974 said:


> So how long are we to pay for sins of people who came before me? Who I had no control over? That I never met? That I don't agree with?


Wolf, I'm sorry I wasn't clearer in my post. This was not at all what I intended to convey.

I was speaking hypothetically and comparatively. Hypothetically the red pill wingnuts think they've got it bad, even though they don't. Compared to the subjugation of women institutionalized and lawful what they, the red pill guys, are suffering as a result of modern divorce law is NOTHING!

No one has control over the past. No one is asking for reparations or apologies. What we, feminists are asking/demanding is equality in all things.

Now to return to chivalry....I am a feminist a SAHM, a sexual submissive to my husband's sexual dominance and I love a man who can be both chivalrous, dominant and supportive/encouraging of personal growth and empowerment.

Because of feminism I can claim my sexuality and own it for the goodness and value it brings to my life and marriage. Without feminism, women's sexuality would still be totally stunted, repressed and shameful and women like me would not be able to get their freak on!


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Actually it's more like:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
> 
> But seriously - don't expect us men to bite our tongues when someone goes "we women suffered for hundreds of years and men should suffer now so we can be even!" Especially when it has nothing to do with us. Only thing many of us have in common with those men is that we have penises! The penis - sign of all the world's evils I'm sure!


That's kind of not what they're saying at all.

At the moment, we're in this transitional period, right? On paper, men and women are more or less completely equal. In practice, unfortunately, that is not the case. There's still a lot of men (and women, to a lesser extent) that women should look, act, _be_ a certain way. They are clinging to the remnants of this patriarchal society while the world advances around them and it makes them very uncomfortable. Men acknowledge that they are disadvantaged in ways that they were not before (or did not realize that they were), but absolutely refuse to acknowledge that the source of those disadvantages is the same source that caused so many problems for women and thus only perpetuate the issue. 

You are doing it right now. "Why am I being punished? This has nothing to do with me!" But it kind of does, because the fight for gender equality is far from over and everyone needs to contribute. THAT is what frustrates feminists. Men are more than happy to complain about their problems, but not so happy to help find a solution. It's _annoying_ to hear these people go on and on about how their lives are _so_ hard because their idea of how society should be has been threatened. And for the record, it has nothing to do with your penis.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

So the concerns of these "red pill guys" should be invalidated due to the historical neglect and invalidation of women's concerns in the past? 

It's the same thing, don't you see?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> So the concerns of these "red pill guys" should be invalidated due to the historical neglect and invalidation of women's concerns in the past?
> 
> It's the same thing, don't you see?


Nope not at all. The concerns of the red pill guys ARE invalid!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I googled red pill guys, first time I've seen it used in fact, is this a new meme or some such?

I'm getting stuff like this:
What is the Red Pill? | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life
“Feminism is a sexual strategy”: Inside the angry online men’s rights group “Red Pill” - Salon.com

:scratchhead:

I am assuming "red pill guys" are men who got fked over by modern divorce laws / lying spouses / forced out of their rights as a father due to the courts believing the lady's BS or similar scenarios, whose concerns are just as valid.

As google is not giving me a solid answer, who (in your words) are these "red pill guys"?


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> I am assuming "red pill guys" are men who got fked over by modern divorce laws / lying spouses / forced out of their rights as a father due to the courts believing the lady's BS or similar scenarios, whose concerns are just as valid.


No one is saying those concerns are invalid (ignoring the 'lying spouses' bit, that's not really relevant), but these are two examples of what I was talking about. These kinds of men blame feminism for their problems in this area while refusing to acknowledge WHY women tend to be favored in divorce/custody hearings. It's due to this long held patriarchal belief that women need to be protected by men, that men should be the sole providers, that women are best suited to look after children - makes sense, seeing as that's what they're here for, pumping out kids. Feminists obviously reject this idea. MRAs don't care about the hows and whys, their sole purpose is to try and sound legitimate when they're being raging misogynists.



> As google is not giving me a solid answer, who (in your words) are these "red pill guys"?


Not exactly my words, but...


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Err what? You say no one is saying those concerns are invalid yet you agree when someone just said two posts ago that those concerns are invalid.

So are you really saying you endorse women cutting off their children from their fathers? For their fathers to have no rights to see their own children? For children to grow up without their dads and father figures (so many of them in my generation and yes, it's a problem)? This is the sh-t I can't support.

Does this make me a "raging misogynist" for my views that children deserve to have contact with their fathers? Does it make them?

Now I don't endorse backward thinking either that all women should stick to the kitchen/childbearing not to mention I have a sole heir (my daughter) who I wish to be just as successful as her daddy and for her not to take sh-t like "you can't do this because ur a woman", not to mention I've raised her with knowledge that several of her female ancestors led men, nations and armies throughout history.

Now ok sure, there are cases where fathers need to be cut off - rapists/pedos/abusive dads/etc, sure, but there's enough cases of women making up so much BS getting away with convicting innocent men it's definitely a VALID concern. Or are you saying that this doesn't happen? That all women are saints?

And then to have their concerns as fathers invalidated because "oh hey, men got away with lots of sh-t in the past too, so cry me a river"... come on ladies, open your eyes! You getting where I'm coming from?


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Err what? You say no one is saying those concerns are invalid yet you agree when someone just said two posts ago that those concerns are invalid.
> 
> So are you really saying you endorse women cutting off their children from their fathers? For their fathers to have no rights to see their own children? For children to grow up without their dads and father figures (so many of them in my generation and yes, it's a problem)? This is the sh-t I can't support.
> 
> Does this make me a "raging misogynist" for my views that children deserve to have contact with their fathers? Does it make them?


You misunderstood me. I was acknowledging that there is definitely a bias towards women when it comes to custody matters. Women are almost always seen as the best caretakers because the patriarchy perpetuates a traditional idea of gender roles - where women are typically gentle and caring and nurturing and men have the emotional capacity of a rock. I was not saying that believing men should be able to see their children makes you a misogynist. I _was_ saying that Men's Rights groups (the red pill types) argue this by blaming women and feminism, when the actual root cause of this problem is the exact same thing that feminists fight against. Their misogynistic mindset is their driving force, NOT their love for their children. If you visit an MRA forum this will be disgustingly obvious to you.




> Now ok sure, there are cases where fathers need to be cut off - rapists/pedos/abusive dads/etc, sure, but there's enough cases of women making up so much BS getting away with convicting innocent men it's definitely a VALID concern. Or are you saying that this doesn't happen? That all women are saints?


It does happen and I have seen this happen when I worked for the police force (only twice, mind). But you have to understand that NO feminist condones this kind of behavior. False allegations are incredibly harmful not only to the men accused, but to actual survivors of rape and abuse. It is damaging to a legitimate victim's credibility and can make pursuing legal action very difficult. 

This argument is almost always used by MRAs to discredit victims of abuse. But of course, they refuse to acknowledge that the percentage of men who are falsely accused of these crimes absolutely pales in comparison to the scale of which the legitimate crimes go unreported.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Alright...

If you notice my quotations around "feminists" understand that I have already acknowledged there are haters on both sides. On my post which seemed to have sparked this discussion I compared feminism to religion; where the original ideals may have been worthwhile but it's used too often to justify human vices.

Already on my original post I also mentioned many men aren't much better - yes I mentioned I don't blame them judging from what they have been through due to modern divorce laws, however I can't endorse the opinion that "hey, they shouldn't be angry about it, because men did this in history", so men are being punished for the sins of their forefathers. Why the hell should we?

Of course they are pissed, these issues they are dealing with are present issues, not past issues (though yes, its still current in highly "devout" countries - but certainly not in countries touched by this "feminism"). Right now I consider both groups sh-t just like I consider alot of religions utter crap. Equal opportunity, rights, and anti-discrimination - that I can support especially for the future for my daughter. However, I have a HIGH emphasis on EQUAL.

Chauvanism, entitlement and bitterness from the past however? To accept "feminists" hating on me for sh-t I never did to them? FK THAT
Quite frankly I'm tired of this sh-t

But anyway, all good, for a laugh:









Like that lady on a wheelchair I mentioned, offered to help her as it was obvious she was exhausted trying to wheel herself up the hill, and all I got was "get out the fking way or I'll run you over", heck that wasn't even chivalry I was trying to be courteous. No ok sure, it's not like she was wearing "I'm a feminist!" shirt or something but this is the type of attitude I do encounter from many self-proclaimed "feminists" where I live.

Now I don't agree with the caption below that meme "women killed it with their feminist independence crap", more accurately female chauvanism killed it IMO, not the ideals in terms of equality - which feminism should be about, but the female chauvanism that "feminism" ended up justifying.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Pooh Bear said:


> Yes, Amy Glass. I had conservative friends post this article on fb as proof that all feminists are hateful people who hate stay at home moms. I think she is either doing this for attention or money. If you look at the comments there are people telling her clearly that feminism is about choice.


Amy Glass aside.. here is something I have noticed on TAM.. many women HERE will say over & over .... "We are not there yet".. "more work needs done"... then in the next breathe go on about how there is NOT ENOUGH FEMALES getting Engineering degrees/ Math degrees... *OK.. is this really about CHOICE or is about meeting some quota.. when will it BE ENOUGH ???* .... when 50% of the engineering / math degrees are awarded to women?.. then you'll be on to another quota so it appears we are COMPLETELY equal with men. 

We have the choice, there is nothing stopping women from doing what they want... what I do see is ...them wanting to influence the minds of everyone to their brand of thinking or need for these quotas.. and if you don't care as much as they do.. if you even thought you were a feminist.. someone else may not think so! 

I have read countless articles by feminists- trying to see where I fit... and these are not of the AMY GLASS mentality.. yet I get this underlying message in many.. where women feel it should* NEVER BE * a goal to get married.. *a college education and independence trumps all.*. well you know what..* I was not that woman*.. I DREAMED of finding the love of my life & having children since I was a young girl.. so where do I belong?? It begs me to wonder.. what in the hell is wrong with me.. the things THEY want I *never *cared about. 

And when we find that special man, my feelings are .. we should live and cater to his needs.. adore him.. Yes ! Just as he lives for us.. I want my H to feel he is the "King of the Hill".. none of this bothers me in the least.. although if I wasn't treated right, I'm sure it would !...of course. 

I kinda see the *evolving* of Chivalry as one where the ROOTS may have been bad (men felt superior -duty to protect women, I still don't see this as all that horrendous though ...as men are physically stronger over women)...on the other side of that coin....these chivalrous men would also lay their lives down for us.. they adored us too! ...at least the Good ones. 

Let's take Halloween for example.. SAME WORD.. but it's *evolved*... I used to go to a Church where they were very against Halloween....every Oct pamphlets were handed out to it's history...don't let your children go... you are celebrating "the day of the Dead"!!.. it's roots in pagan celebrations for the end of the harvest season..... 

But in my mind.. it was one of the most exciting holidays of the darn year.. I went as a kid -dressing up with my friends, we had a [email protected]#$... ALL that candy ...I wasn't going to deny my children this -just because of a little history.. ..they come home & dump all that candy on the floor & barter... they LOVE it!! & I love seeing their happy faces.... We are not thinking of DEAD people and celebrating Satan!

History is interesting.. but things evolve.. I do not see the point in throwing everything OUT -just because of a little history.. that's why asking a Father for a daughters hand ... a Father walking his daughter down the aisle ...(I'm not thinking property!).. 








... 

Mine didn't- by the way, my H walked half way down...kissed my hand & we walked back together - while my Father sat in the back row...how crazy is that.. ...Even I didn't care about Tradition.. Nor did my H ask him ...me & my dad were never incredibly close like a Father /daughter should be.. like I see my H with our daughter .. I *didn't* have that growing up, though it would have been nice. 

Just as you see the WORD Chivalry in a bad light (because of it's beginnings)... even though the ROOTS of feminism were greatly needed.. it's what it's evolved into that I feel has went too far. So it's backwards from the Halloween / Chivalry analogy..

If I am even able to call myself a Feminist.. I'd have to deem myself a "Traditional Feminist"... to offer some understanding....I resonate with 99% of this article.. 

What is Traditional Feminism? | The Traditional Feminist

Articles like this *>>* Why Women With Traditional Values Can Be Feminists Too 

....give me hope that I am not so excluded (even if I feel so).... but when one meets a self proclaimed feminist, one has no idea where she is on that BAR -from completely supporting "*1st wave" & very thankful yet content with what's been accomplished* to *Radical judgmental Amy Glass attitude*.. (it can be like a religion to some, I have to agree with Random Dude!... and if you don't line up, you are deemed a bad feminist... they may even call you a misogynist, talk about an insult!! 

I've been told I feed the misogynist men here.. did I deserve that because I have a difference of opinion over another women here ?? I don't think so.. so I try to stand up for myself.. but I'm not stupid. .. if others AGREE with her.... again, it's going to PUSH me out of wanting anything to do with that term. 

Please try to understand this side of the coin.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> then in the next breathe go on about how there is NOT ENOUGH FEMALES getting Engineering degrees/ Math degrees... OK.. is this really about CHOICE or is about meeting some quota.. when will it BE ENOUGH ??? .... when 50% of the engineering / math degrees are awarded to women?.. then you'll be on to another quota so it appears we are COMPLETELY equal with men.


Lol SA, reminds me of my mates in my youth who were complaining about the sausage fests in engineering, they WANT more women, but it just doesn't seem to spark much interest even though there's nothing stopping them.

As for feminism and such, I think this best represents my views, at least in response to recent discussions:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anon Pink said:


> SA, you know I adore you but I sure do wish you would stop lumping all feminists as those crazy wacky radicals you come across. I am a feminist and I know a lot of other feminists and now that I think of it, we are all SAHM except for one. So whoever that chick was that you quoted, she doesn't speak for feminists. She speaks for herself.


I never said I felt she DID...Random Dude gets me (thank you ).. though... it just seems If I want to show a side that maybe some of YOU are not seeing in regards to these attitudes.. It seems others want to silence me... like "Stop it already SA!".. 

What's wrong with some healthy dialog on this?? ...isn't this what we DO here on TAM [email protected]#.....nor would I blame anyone for putting that outrageous piece on FB by AMY Glass.. that type of hatred & vitriol should be exposed, should it not? Let the REAL feminists come forward and Blast her---as they damn well should. 

I did read a few articles that did JUST that.. and good -they were needed!

Yes I know many are stay at home Moms..heck it's so much MORE than the stay at home Mom thing.. they tackle every issue under the sun.. and no one could deny that probably 80% or more are liberal minded.. I'm not. OK.. I'm a conservative country girl. My Culture is not big city life, fast sex and all that..and "I don't need a man to be happy".... that's not me.

I love men! (well the good gentlemanly chivalrous type that is)..... I also have this book on my shelf.. I've thought of doing a thread on it ....oh that would go over swell [email protected]#$.... I guess when I decide to put my own nail in my coffin posting here (in regards to women).. I might just tackle that thread..

Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream - and Why It Matters 



> American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?
> 
> As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry.


..

Aha moment.. I happen to agree with MANY things this woman author has to say.. When feminists will humble themselves and try to understand the man's side.. and women like THIS author cares to understand where THEY are coming from.... we might do some healing with the sexes.. but I'm not holding my breathe on that one.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Amy Glass aside.. here is something I have noticed on TAM.. many women HERE will say over & over .... "We are not there yet".. "more work needs done"... then in the next breathe go on about how there is NOT ENOUGH FEMALES getting Engineering degrees/ Math degrees... *OK.. is this really about CHOICE or is about meeting some quota.. when will it BE ENOUGH ???* .... when 50% of the engineering / math degrees are awarded to women?.. then you'll be on to another quota so it appears we are COMPLETELY equal with men.


You've missed the point of that specific outcry. "That our daughters aren't being encouraged/supported educationally toward that area."

Case in point: visiting my middle daughters 6th grade science and math class. Back to back, same teacher, a very dynamic and well respected teacher. He was excellent in engaging his students. I counted how many times he called on boys and how many times he called on girls. 23 times for boys and 7 times for girls. When I brought it to his attention he got angry and insinuated I was lying. I counted because my daughter was upset that she never got called on. This is an example of how girls are subtly though unintentionally discouraged in those academic track.



> We have the choice, there is nothing stopping women from doing what they want... what I do see is ...them wanting to influence the minds of everyone to their brand of thinking or need for these quotas.. and if you don't care as much as they do.. if you even thought you were a feminist.. someone else may not think so!


Of course they do this. What good is an opinion if you don't try to influence? This is a nonissue SA. Just ignore the opinions that don't sit right with you, it's what I do.



> I have read countless articles by feminists- trying to see where I fit... and these are not of the AMY GLASS mentality.. yet I get this underlying message in many.. where women feel it should* NEVER BE * a goal to get married.. *a college education and independence trumps all.*. well you know what..* I was not that woman*.. I DREAMED of finding the love of my life & having children since I was a young girl.. so where do I belong?? It begs me to wonder.. what in the hell is wrong with me.. the things THEY want I *never *cared about.


It shouldn't be THE goal to get married. All girls need to be prepared to support themselves. Ignoring education and career goals is setting yourself up for a life time of dependence. You never know what will happen, death, divorce, job loss...it's absurd NOT to encourage your daughter to be prepared to support herself and her children if need be!

When I was in 10th grade I missed a week of school, went to my chem teacher and asked for help to catch up. He told me, "you don't need to know this, you will marry well." Swear to god his exact words. Of course being a minor hooligan at the time, I took him seriously and goofed off the rest of the year, did nothing in his class and got a C for the year. Thus ending all possibility of pursuing science in college.



> And when we find that special man, my feelings are .. we should live and cater to his needs.. adore him.. Yes ! Just as he lives for us.. I want my H to feel he is the "King of the Hill".. none of this bothers me in the least.. although if I wasn't treated right, I'm sure it would !...of course.


I have no problems with this. You love with all your heart and soul and you expect your children to do the same. So long as you expect your sons to behave as lovingly as you expect your daughter too. And I'm sure if you felt your child wasn't being treated well in return, you'd guide them into standing up for themselves.... 



> I kinda see the *evolving* of Chivalry as one where the ROOTS may have been bad (men felt superior -duty to protect women, I still don't see this as all that horrendous though ...as men are physically stronger over women)...on the other side of that coin....these chivalrous men would also lay their lives down for us.. they adored us too! ...at least the Good ones.


Agreed.



> Let's take Halloween for example.. SAME WORD.. but it's *evolved*... I used to go to a Church where they were very against Halloween....every Oct pamphlets were handed out to it's history...don't let your children go... you are celebrating "the day of the Dead"!!.. it's roots in pagan celebrations for the end of the harvest season.....


Which shows how stupid that church was. For not only is Halloween a pagan holiday so is Christmas and Easter! Idiots!



> But in my mind.. it was one of the most exciting holidays of the darn year.. I went as a kid -dressing up with my friends, we had a [email protected]#$... ALL that candy ...I wasn't going to deny my children this -just because of a little history.. ..they come home & dump all that candy on the floor & barter... they LOVE it!! & I love seeing their happy faces.... We are not thinking of DEAD people and celebrating Satan!


Again, illiterate church leaders. The day of the dead was to honor ancestors. People dressed in scary costumes in order to ensure the spirit of the dead relative went back to rest and wasn't trapped between two realms. Because the day of the dead was when the door between the two realms was open and spirits came back to visit.



> . but when one meets a self proclaimed feminist, one has no idea where she is on that BAR -from completely supporting "*1st wave" & very thankful yet content with what's been accomplished* to *Radical judgmental Amy Glass attitude*.. (it can be like a religion to some, I have to agree with Random Dude!... and if you don't line up, you are deemed a bad feminist... they may even call you a misogynist, talk about an insult!!
> 
> I've been told I feed the misogynist men here.. did I deserve that because I have a difference of opinion over another women here ?? I don't think so.. so I try to stand up for myself.. but I'm not stupid. .. if others AGREE with her.... again, it's going to PUSH me out of wanting anything to do with that term.
> 
> Please try to understand this side of the coin.



Who gives a crap what radicals think of my opinion, or yours? We listen to what they say, we think on it, and we toss it as irrelevant or damaging.

You do feed the mysogynists here. You fail to realize that your fairy tale marriage and love isn't what the vast majority of women ever experience. 

You attribute it to your traditional mind set and I'm telling you that has nothing to do with your fairy tale love. You two found each other early and you both had the ability and expectation to love with your entire being. Neither of you came from a life of hurt, fear, anger, self preservation... 

You think what you have is something all women could have if they just loved better.

That's like thinking the American Dream can be had if we just voted republican.

I know you get mad at me when I refer to your marriage as fairy tale. But it's true. Look at how many women on TAM are here because they do not feel loved by their husbands. Look at how many men are here because they do not feel loved by their wives. Are you suggesting all these unhappy people need to do is love better to feel better loved?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

> American society has become anti-male. Men are sensing the backlash and are consciously and unconsciously going “on strike.” They are dropping out of college, leaving the workforce and avoiding marriage and fatherhood at alarming rates. The trend is so pronounced that a number of books have been written about this “man-child” phenomenon, concluding that men have taken a vacation from responsibility simply because they can. But why should men participate in a system that seems to be increasingly stacked against them?
> 
> As Men on Strike demonstrates, men aren’t dropping out because they are stuck in arrested development. They are instead acting rationally in response to the lack of incentives society offers them to be responsible fathers, husbands and providers. In addition, men are going on strike, either consciously or unconsciously, because they do not want to be injured by the myriad of laws, attitudes and hostility against them for the crime of happening to be male in the twenty-first century. Men are starting to fight back against the backlash. Men on Strike explains their battle cry.


This is almost complete bull sh!t!

I've participated in school improvement teams in which the failing scores of boys was discussed and attempted to be addressed.

BOYS are failing at alarming rates beginning in the 6th grade, up until then they tend to excel at the same or better rates as girls.

Why? XBox, computer games, lack of time outdoors, lack of male role models... So when these boys, and this has been on middle school radars for 15 years at least, get to college they can barely hang on because their foundation is weak. 

It has nothing to do with feminism!!!!

Go ask any 20 year old college drop out why he dropped out. Didn't like school, didn't see the point. Ask him what his goals are... Getting stoned and playing XBox... The "injurious laws against men" ... HAH! This young men don't even know what that term means. Getting married isn't on their radar because...Xbox... They aren't deciding not to get married in protest of changing laws. 

You've quoted this author before. She is as full of sh!t as Phyillis Schlafly was.

SA, I'm sorry to say I'm really losing respect for you because of your insistence to feed the red pill wingnuts.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have read countless articles by feminists- trying to see where I fit... and these are not of the AMY GLASS mentality.. yet I get this underlying message in many.. where women feel it should* NEVER BE * a goal to get married.. *a college education and independence trumps all.*. well you know what..* I was not that woman*.. I DREAMED of finding the love of my life & having children since I was a young girl.. so where do I belong?? It begs me to wonder.. what in the hell is wrong with me.. the things THEY want I *never *cared about.
> 
> Please try to understand this side of the coin.





Anon Pink said:


> It shouldn't be THE goal to get married. All girls need to be prepared to support themselves. Ignoring education and career goals is setting yourself up for a life time of dependence. You never know what will happen, death, divorce, job loss...it's absurd NOT to encourage your daughter to be prepared to support herself and her children if need be!


It's clear from these posts why SA feels the way she does about feminists. Feminists are supposed to be about choice but her choice is unsupported. Her choice is absurd. 

I don't think SA set herself up for a lifetime of dependence she seems to have more bases covered than most married couples I know.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> It's clear from these posts why SA feels the way she does about feminists. Feminists are supposed to be about choice but her choice is unsupported. Her choice is absurd.
> 
> I don't think SA set herself up for a lifetime of dependence she seems to have more bases covered than most married couples I know.


Her choice is to steal her daughter to fallow in her foot steps and seek a qualified marriage partner. I have no problems with this, as long as she also protects her daughter future by encouraging job skills because we cannot count on a husband to always support us. Not because of the way men are, but because life happens.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You do feed the mysogynists here. You fail to realize that your fairy tale marriage and love isn't what the vast majority of women ever experience.
> 
> You attribute it to your traditional mind set and I'm telling you that has nothing to do with your fairy tale love. You two found each other early and you both had the ability and expectation to love with your entire being. Neither of you came from a life of hurt, fear, anger, self preservation...
> 
> ...


I think this is really unfair. I've never taken SA's posts as a suggestion that if everyone just needs to love more or be traditional to have a good marriage. She conveys HER experience in love and marriage. I've never seen her suggest to people that they should do it her way but more this is what worked for her. While she is constantly being told that she is absurd for doing it her way. 

"Neither one of you came from a life of hurt, fear, anger or self preservation". Big and unfair assumption, you know everything about SA's life? 

Is her marriage a fairy tale? Not in the snarky way it comes across in your post. I imagine there a plenty of women and men who would not consider SA's marriage their ideal. My guess is that many people would not prioritize their life and marriage the way SA and her husband do so it would be no fairytale to them. The way you use the term fairytale suggests that SA's marriage is some fictitious dream when it's her reality. I can see why she gets mad. 

"You attribute it (SA's marriage) to your traditional mindset and I'm telling you it has nothing to do with your fairy tale love" I suppose you know better than SA what has made her marriage work.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> In the end, we all want love.
> 
> Some women carry severe anger and blame all men. I don't agree with them and here on TAM have called them out on it. I'm not the only woman who does this. I'm pretty blatant, other women are more subtle but those angry women do get called on lumping all men into one nasty pile.
> 
> ...


Ahh gotcha. I have no problems with feminism unless it is used as guise to oppress others. I have 2 daughters and I'm very glad they are born in this era than one earlier.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

coffee4me said:


> I think this is really unfair. I've never taken SA's posts as a suggestion that if everyone just needs to love more or be traditional to have a good marriage. She conveys HER experience in love and marriage. I've never seen her suggest to people that they should do it her way but more this is what worked for her. While she is constantly being told that she is absurd for doing it her way.
> 
> "Neither one of you came from a life of hurt, fear, anger or self preservation". Big and unfair assumption, you know everything about SA's life?
> 
> ...



Not true.

I said this:



Anon Pink said:


> I have no problems with this. You love with all your heart and soul and you expect your children to do the same. So long as you expect your sons to behave as lovingly as you expect your daughter too. And I'm sure if you felt your child wasn't being treated well in return, you'd guide them into standing up for themselves....


In reply to this



SimplyAmorous said:


> And when we find that special man, my feelings are .. we should live and cater to his needs.. adore him.. Yes ! Just as he lives for us.. I want my H to feel he is the "King of the Hill".. none of this bothers me in the least.. although if I wasn't treated right, I'm sure it would !...of course.


I do not think SA's marriage is some fictitious dream. I think it is an extremely rare occurrence of soul mates (and I don't even believe in the concept of soul mates) meeting one another vey early in life. Long before any monumental hurts appeared to make either one suspicious and defensive. They met with open arms and open hearts and THAT is rare. I've explained this before, to SA herself. The rarity of her marriage is why I call it a fairy tale, not because it is fictitious.

I have read a LOT of what SA has shared, including her issues with her FOO. No I don't know everything about her and am basing my opinions only on what I have read of her postings.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> ]*Avon Pink said: * You do feed the mysogynists here.


 Well I guess it's official then , isn't it.... 

And just WHO are the mysogynists here ?? do you have a list who I cater to ?? 



> Look at how many women on TAM are here because they do not feel loved by their husbands. Look at how many men are here because they do not feel loved by their wives. Are you suggesting all these unhappy people need to do is love better to feel better loved?


 No I am not suggesting this at all... but it would help if they both listened to each other ...... Don't you think that most of the issues here are blatant incompatibility, red flags they missed, ignored, didn't talk about the future enough, or people just CHANGED....or so much dysfunction before they met, they struggle to overcome.



> *Avon Pink said: *SA, I'm sorry to say I'm really losing respect for you because of your insistence to feed the red pill wingnuts.


 ... I figured as much.....ya know what though.. I feel on both sides of the aisle.. each movement has Good hearted well intentioned people in it and the Radicals standing right beside them- who brings disgrace to the whole barrel of apples. 

The thing is.. can a feminist admit this? I don't see this acknowledged near enough... It's more reduced to name calling , wanting the other side to just GO DIE.. 

The losing respect.. if people here don't like me for who I am ..or feel I have anything worthy to add to this forum... I'm not going to lie, that STINGS.....and will continue to cause me to feel unwelcome here....it's a conflict to me.... if I want to remain, I will have to pull up my boot straps and find the strength to overcome.. That's all .

I can not deny how I feel when these subjects come up.. I feel as strongly as YOU DO - and do have my own opinions...if this keeps me locked out of the "sisterhood" here (which I never felt a part of anyway).. then so be it.. 

I have a much humbler approach TO MEN and their issues....and it's not something I care to apologize for. 

When you come out lashing calling people wingnuts.. you've already shut down the communication.. causing them to put up their defenses...this is not how you effect change and healing IN ANY SORT Of relationship... (and I'd say this is probably the #1 problem with marriages here too).... You start by listening.. and trying to understand where someone else is coming from. 



> *Avon Pink said*: Her choice is to steal her daughter to fallow in her foot steps and seek a qualified marriage partner. I have no problems with this, as long as she also protects her daughter future by encouraging job skills because we cannot count on a husband to always support us. Not because of the way men are, but because life happens.


 Nope ..you got this all wrong.. I am a REALIST ...I clearly see the tide in this modern world in relation to all my children.. Unfortunate to say...I don't have a lotta hope for her to find a wonderful man EASILY (HELL NO)... not in this value-less society today where everyone worships independence & success.. throwing sex around like it's nothing.. why the hell would a man even want to marry.. he gets all the lovin & variety he needs ... I feel bad for my daughter.. but I'll still raise her to be a lady non the less.. and our sons to be Gentleman ..

No.. I absolutely plan for her to go to college.. I am not an idealist...I know exactly what she stands to face in this world......and Coffee4me is right.. I believe strongly in covering all basis and living responsibly- on every front.. I abhor the idea of being in a hole, not being able to take care of myself ...pay a freaking bill. Responsibility is everything in life.. and for our choices so we don't blame anyone else. 

For the record.. I did have my share of HURT growing up.. and my H was bullied in early high school by A-holes.. so ya know what.. I don't come from PollyFvkingAnna roots as some may assume.... 

Appreciate you Coffee4me!


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Amy Glass aside.. here is something I have noticed on TAM.. many women HERE will say over & over .... "We are not there yet".. "more work needs done"... then in the next breathe go on about how there is NOT ENOUGH FEMALES getting Engineering degrees/ Math degrees... *OK.. is this really about CHOICE or is about meeting some quota.. when will it BE ENOUGH ???* .... when 50% of the engineering / math degrees are awarded to women?.. then you'll be on to another quota so it appears we are COMPLETELY equal with men.


Well, it's true. We aren't there yet. Girls are not encouraged to go into these fields like men are, so less women even try. When I took on an internship in the biology department, I was the only woman there. They would act as if I wasn't good enough to be there and I had to work twice as hard to keep my place, just for being a woman in a male dominated area. 

It's not a quota, it's about the choice being easier to make. Yes, the choice is there, but it's definitely not easy. Right now, it's still very hard to get into certain fields. I was pre-med for my first 2 years of college and it was a constant struggle to prove professors wrong about a woman doing well. It eventually got the best of me and I switched tracks in my major because I didn't feel I could keep up anymore. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Just as you see the WORD Chivalry in a bad light (because of it's beginnings)... even though the ROOTS of feminism were greatly needed.. it's what it's evolved into that I feel has went too far. So it's backwards from the Halloween / Chivalry analogy..


I don't think chivalry in a "bad" way, but don't necessarily see how it's "needed". I think everyone should act with kindness and respect. You open doors for people(not just women) because it's a nice thing to do, you stand by your word because you are a good human being, and so on. It's not really chivalry to me, as much as just being a decent person. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> If I am even able to call myself a Feminist.. I'd have to deem myself a "Traditional Feminist".
> 
> I've been told I feed the misogynist men here.. did I deserve that because I have a difference of opinion over another women here ?? I don't think so.. so I try to stand up for myself.. but I'm not stupid. .. if others AGREE with her.... again, it's going to PUSH me out of wanting anything to do with that term.


You can be a feminist and still think traditionally in areas. Feminism is about women's rights, so that you can choose how you want to live your life instead of being forced into one way of doing things. I am a feminist and a SAHM. I worked hard to get a bachelor's degree in the sciences and did a few highly competitive internships that were male dominated. I love that my husband asked for my parent's blessing before he proposed to me, as he is a very respectful man and family oriented. My parent's response wouldn't change anything, but it was a nice sign of respect. I also waited to have sex with my husband and he's the only man I've ever had sex with. There are areas where I am traditional and areas where I'm more progressive. You can be both. 

Where I see people think you feed the misogynist, is when you talk about always treating the man well. Making sure he feels this or that, but have little to say on how he should act/what he should do. I see you defending men often in how hurt they feel and how they should be treated better, without looking into what they might be doing wrong. Men shouldn't be treated like 'kings' if they are not being respectful and loving to their wives. Both need to love and respect their partner. Don't put either partner on a pedestal, as neither deserve it. They are partners, equal.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Anonymous07 said:


> Well, it's true. We aren't there yet. Girls are not encouraged to go into these fields like men are, so less women even try. When I took on an internship in the biology department, I was the only woman there. They would act as if I wasn't good enough to be there and I had to work twice as hard to keep my place, just for being a woman in a male dominated area.
> 
> It's not a quota, it's about the choice being easier to make. Yes, the choice is there, but it's definitely not easy. Right now, it's still very hard to get into certain fields. I was pre-med for my first 2 years of college and it was a constant struggle to prove professors wrong about a woman doing well. It eventually got the best of me and I switched tracks in my major because I didn't feel I could keep up anymore.


Mrs. meson has a Ph.D. in physics and she was lucky enough to have had people along the way encourage her to go into it. It is definitely not the norm yet but it's getting better. She knows first hand the salery disparities. And at the same time my wife was getting encouragement another woman I know was told that she really belonged in a finishing school. There are still large numbers of bigots holding positions that are only fed through the old boy network. I've seen it at the biggest university near me personally. Fortunately they are dying out. The bottom line is we are not there yet.





Anonymous07 said:


> I don't think chivalry in a "bad" way, but don't necessarily see how it's "needed". I think everyone should act with kindness and respect. You open doors for people(not just women) because it's a nice thing to do, you stand by your word because you are a good human being, and so on. It's not really chivalry to me, as much as just being a decent person.


This was stated early in the thread. I agree kindness and respect is really what it is about.




Anonymous07 said:


> You can be a feminist and still think traditionally in areas. Feminism is about women's rights, so that you can choose how you want to live your life instead of being forced into one way of doing things. I am a feminist and a SAHM. I worked hard to get a bachelor's degree in the sciences and did a few highly competitive internships that were male dominated. I love that my husband asked for my parent's blessing before he proposed to me, as he is a very respectful man and family oriented. My parent's response wouldn't change anything, but it was a nice sign of respect. I also waited to have sex with my husband and he's the only man I've ever had sex with. There are areas where I am traditional and areas where I'm more progressive. You can be both.


This is exactly how my wife feels. She wants to be able do what she wants even if it's science while at the same time being able to be a feminine vixen. She blended SAHM with work in a way to feed both parts of her soul that needed to be fed differently. 



Anonymous07 said:


> Where I see people think you feed the misogynist, is when you talk about always treating the man well. Making sure he feels this or that, but have little to say on how he should act/what he should do. I see you defending men often in how hurt they feel and how they should be treated better, without looking into what they might be doing wrong. Men shouldn't be treated like 'kings' if they are not being respectful and loving to their wives. Both need to love and respect their partner. Don't put either partner on a pedestal, as neither deserve it. They are partners, equal.


I can't speak for SA but I suspect that the view that the man should be king is not only one sided but applies for either spouse. That part of being married is having the desire to please and satisfy your spouse within limits. I have this desire and so does my wife. But it doesn't mean my wife is feeding misogyny. I think it was completely unjustified of AnonPink to say that and I'm glad it was deleted even though it's shadows remain. 

The problem is that SA is a distinct individual that doesn't belong to the standard stereotypes and thus gets slammed from people from both sides. It's often lonely in the middle.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I see some acts as chivalry that I don't categorize as common courtesy because they are specifically acts that a man does for a woman. 

Walking on the traffic side of the street. 

Waiting until the female gets inside safely when dropping her off at her house. 

Putting yourself between potential harm and a female you are with. 

Getting the car in the rain. 

If its just common courtesy and there is no chivalry or being a gentleman do you not teach your sons those things? Are they obsolete in the modern world?


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> Well, it's true. We aren't there yet. Girls are not encouraged to go into these fields like men are, so less women even try. When I took on an internship in the biology department, I was the only woman there. They would act as if I wasn't good enough to be there and I had to work twice as hard to keep my place, just for being a woman in a male dominated area.
> 
> Well welcome to the real world!! Even as a man - try to become a PHD while at the same time believe in God and reject the Theory of Evolution!! See how far you make it. Or - try and compete in the real business world with those who have a Harvard or Yale MBA - when you come from a public college - do you think that you might have to work harder to get the promotion?? Or how about this - say you are a man who is 5'3" tall - just as qualified as I guy who is 6'2" tall - who do you think would get the promotion to lead an organization?? This is nothing new – been going on since the beginning of time. What I see more often in the business world from feminists are women with huge chips on their shoulders who more often than not will plow over a man when given the chance – so no wonder most with this attitude end up failing. This CHIP came from a false concept that a woman has to work harder than a man to get ahead – I see this as an excuse and not reality. Do you suppose men might get discriminated against just because of how they look?? In pharmaceutical sales – what I see is bunch of Hot Women calling on the doctors!! Don’t see many homely looking ones!!
> 
> ...


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> I see some acts as chivalry that I don't categorize as common courtesy because they are specifically acts that a man does for a woman.
> 
> Walking on the traffic side of the street.
> 
> ...


Chivalry is what defined the excellent qualities of a Knight. These qualities apply to all not just women. Overtime they became applied as a prescription as to how you would treat a lady. I liken these ideals to the ideals of a Boy Scout. 

So I teach my boys to be like this for everyone not just ladies. Just a couple of days ago we had a storm which caused an ice layer to build up and a neighbor was having difficulty going down his driveway. So I went over to help if needed as he went back up the driveway. If he fell I could help him up. I suggested a path that he eventually took and he was thankful. He didnt fall and my help was not needed but i had his back. To me it is common curtesy towards male or female.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

coffee4me said:


> I see some acts as chivalry that I don't categorize as common courtesy because they are specifically acts that a man does for a woman.
> 
> Walking on the traffic side of the street.
> 
> ...


Well I don't have a son, I have a daughter. If I had a son, I will teach him the same thing I'm teaching my daughter; human courtesy.

Just like the examples I gave earlier in this thread, someone carrying a heavy package, my hands are free, I'll open the door. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman. A car beside you has been struggling to steer into the left lane 2 traffic lights away, give them a gap on the road so they can turn. Someone comes to your door to deliver a package, they are sweating from 40'C heat, offer them a glass of water.

Human courtesy, help make the world a better place for both men and women. Besides all chivalry does is bite you in the ass, like the example I proved of that lady who yelled at me for trying to help, or the meme I posted, reflecting increasing common attitudes of women when it comes to chivalry.

To the point even "non-chivalrous" men such as myself get burnt by showing human courtesy, that I can't endorse.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Well I don't have a son, I have a daughter. If I had a son, I will teach him the same thing I'm teaching my daughter; human courtesy.
> 
> Just like the examples I gave earlier in this thread, someone carrying a heavy package, my hands are free, I'll open the door. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman. A car beside you has been struggling to steer into the left lane 2 traffic lights away, give them a gap on the road so they can turn. Someone comes to your door to deliver a package, they are sweating from 40'C heat, offer them a glass of water.



:iagree:


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

I agree also that the examples RD and meson gave are courteous situations that can be applied to men or women. 

It didnt address the situations I mentioned that tend to be gender specific. 

Are those types of gender specific behaviors obsolete? 

RD and meson do you do any of the 4 things I mentioned?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I wouldn't have mentioned them if they aren't examples of what I do in my daily life. It's little things that doesn't bother me but can make a difference in people's day. Doesn't cost me much to open the door for someone carrying something, doesn't cost me much to offer a glass of water, nor slowing down to open up a gap for someone to drive through.

As angry and crazy as I may come across on this forum I'm not all "FK YAS ALL" in real life  Unless someone pisses me off

As for folks behind me honking because I slowed down to let someone through they can get fked. Sometimes I get annoyed with those impatient fkwits who honk at me enough to not allow them to overtake and slow right down when they are behind me. So hey, I'm not all nice either 

I should be, but I have my own temper.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

RD I agree that the examples you have are courteous things that men and women do for each other. The question was do you do any of the 4 things I mentioned.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anonymous07 said:


> Well, it's true. We aren't there yet. Girls are not encouraged to go into these fields like men are, so less women even try. When I took on an internship in the biology department, I was the only woman there. They would act as if I wasn't good enough to be there and I had to work twice as hard to keep my place, just for being a woman in a male dominated area.
> 
> It's not a quota, *it's about the choice being easier to make*.* Yes, the choice is there, but it's definitely not easy.* Right now, it's still very hard to get into certain fields. I was pre-med for my first 2 years of college and it was a constant struggle to prove professors wrong about a woman doing well. It eventually got the best of me and I switched tracks in my major because I didn't feel I could keep up anymore.


Well.. Life being the way it is --for most of us.... many things don't come so easy..we have to prove ourselves sometimes.. I think when it's a true passion -that person... male or female.. will find the strength to persevere .. but the CHOICE is there.. this is what is most important.. (what was fought for- and won)... 

I could turn this around ...on a much smaller scale....and say ..."those who choose to depend on a man,giving up their Jobs-for family ...that what they face from society's judgments are not so easy to live with either -as the vast majority deems them foolish...... Elegirl often says 70% of women work so I guess that means that only 30% have a Traditional lifestyle these days or care to.... I like to say we are the dinosaurs of this age. 

.. but it's still our choice to make, and we'll have to live with the fall out & judgments of others feeling this way or that way .. yeah it sucks - but it's on all sides... as people just won't always feel the same way.. so you grab ahold of those who Support you / encourage you on.... and learn to tune out the naysayers.. this is true EVERYWHERE.. in our high schools... colleges, in our work place.. it's sucks to feel ostracized/ isolated..... I always teach our kids to STAND UP for the Underdog.. Yeah I really do.. because it's really hard for some people and having a friend, one person who will stand tall with you, pat you on the back.. maybe is all one needs to carry on... what a difference it can make. 

JLD's daughter has a STRONG PASSION for Engineering & she is IN THE TOP OF her class -just entering College, her 1st year, she got to speak , won some type of award even -ahead of those who've been there longer, mostly men... she has proven herself already among the men.. I say "good for her!".. 

Those women who started the 1st wave of Feminism.. imagine what they persevered through.. I think most people will respect intelligence... they won't respect that a woman gets the Job just because she is a woman though. (and I wouldn't blame them).



> *I don't think chivalry in a "bad" way, but don't necessarily see how it's "needed". I think everyone should act with kindness and respect. You open doors for people(not just women) because it's a nice thing to do, you stand by your word because you are a good human being, and so on. It's not really chivalry to me, as much as just being a decent person*.


it's like I said.. I like the Romance of it.. everyone here agrees with what you have said.. Myself included .... and besides my H .. I certainly don't need any men giving me special treatment.. 



> *Anonymous07 said*:
> *You can be a feminist and still think traditionally in areas. Feminism is about women's rights, so that you can choose how you want to live your life instead of being forced into one way of doing things. I am a feminist and a SAHM*.


 I want to believe this is the case...and I guess I can believe or call myself anything I choose...(though I am not into deluding myself to make myself feel better)...because I do listen so carefully to the other side.. this still leaves it open to debate who is a good feminist and who needs thrown out cause they hold too many traditional views for where the vast majority want to see the movement go.... 

For instance.. this comment by batsociety.. now it is JUST ME.. or is this suggesting that a Traditional idea of gender roles = misogynistic mindset ... am I reading too much into this post?? ... From where I stand ...such comments shoot out at me inbetween the eyes. And I find them judging how I personally think.... in fact damning ME..... anytime a feminist starts on the Patriarchy, you know SHE IS HEATED & has something to unleash that she's hell bent AGAINST...... and in this example.. it is those Traditional views... can't you see the CONFLICT here - in my mind ?










batsociety said:


> You misunderstood me. I was acknowledging that there is definitely a bias towards women when it comes to custody matters. Women are almost always seen as the best caretakers *because the patriarchy perpetuates* *a traditional idea of gender roles *- where women are typically gentle and caring and nurturing and men have the emotional capacity of a rock. I was not saying that believing men should be able to see their children makes you a misogynist. I _was_ saying that Men's Rights groups (the red pill types) argue this by blaming women and feminism, when the actual root cause of this problem is the exact same thing that feminists fight against. *Their misogynistic mindset *is their driving force, NOT their love for their children. If you visit an MRA forum this will be disgustingly obvious to you.





> *Anonymous07 said*:Where I see people think you feed the misogynist, is when you talk about always treating the man well. Making sure he feels this or that, but have little to say on how he should act/what he should do. I see you defending men often in how hurt they feel and how they should be treated better, without looking into what they might be doing wrong.* Men shouldn't be treated like 'kings' if they are not being respectful and loving to their wives. Both need to love and respect their partner.* Don't put either partner on a pedestal, as neither deserve it. They are partners, equal.


 I really thought the reason women here felt this way was more LOADED over that !! THough I feel what you said is NOT TRUE of me..you have missed plenty of my posts telling women they deserve so much better, to Leave, he is not worth your time, you have so much to offer... save yourself.. 

Although I am one who cares about how the man feels, he does deserve listened to... (because I myself fell down on my husband & took advantage of HIM in ways I never should have..I hurt HIM where he felt less loved... so I speak out of my own personal regret here, have lived & learned -though only sexually speaking)... so I know GOOD men can get the lousy end of the stick at times from some of us... whether through stress, cluelessness, so many things.. maybe that's NOT the norm here, but it's surely not meant to harm. 

In no way would I EVER condone a man treating his wife lousy... I do feel he deserves intimacy.. but he also needs to step up to the plate and LOVE HIS WIFE & provide those emotional needs..(MY God YES!!!).... when I put together my thread below ...to love our men... If anyone has taken the time to read it.. I make it very clear ....saying this...








...


> ****** Simpyamorous said*: Before I lay these out there...I have a caring well intentioned Husband in mind... (not perfect, no one is!)...but also not a willfully neglectful man who leaves us emotionally cringing due to his demeaning treatment of us as wives...if the woman is not feeling Loved by her husband..at least half of the time...these will be near impossible to follow.. her spirit towards him will be wilted, their will be resentment.... both need to do their part..


 My H would tell any of you, I am not even the submission type.. he would laugh at that... so to say I am one who condones SUCKING UP To A MAN who treats us bad.. ha ha ha .. never from me.. You have misread me badly.. No... Love & respect from both ends.. paramount here.. 

It would be typical of me to post something like this.. so I do expect a man to be a good man.. heck even the women argued with my thread on the greatest virtues I think a man can have.. kinda floored me but that's the nature of differences of opinion I guess...


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> I agree also that the examples RD and meson gave are courteous situations that can be applied to men or women.
> 
> It didnt address the situations I mentioned that tend to be gender specific.
> 
> ...


There are things I will tend to do more for women than men. One is initiate carrying heavy things. Another is driving.

As for your examples:

Walking on the street side is not something I pay attention to for male or female. Usually if it's that much of a concern I go in front or behind not side by side.

Waiting until someone is in the house I do for everyone. Why leave before you know they can get in the house. Anyone can forget keys.

Risking myself first to protect someone I do more frequently with women. I will more likely prerig a rapel for a woman partner and go first with women than men. 

Getting the car in the rain is really something I only do for my parents or people with disabilities or who are sick. Usually we head to the car together. But that's mostly because most of my friends are outdoor people who don't care if they get wet.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

meson said:


> There are things I will tend to do more for women than men. One is initiate carrying heavy things. Another is driving.


And when you do these things more for women you consider that just courtesy not gentlemanly? If thats the case are you then discourteous to men when you don't initiate carrying heavy things? 

I'm not trying to pick on you I am really trying to see how this is viewed by people who just want common courtesy regardless of gender. 

And thank you for answering my question about the specific behaviors I see where the practice of some of these things is becoming a thing of the past. 

When my son walks down the street with my daughter he walks on the traffic side of the sidewalk. If he sees a shady looking guy up ahead he will gently take her arm and move her to his other side so he is near the shady character not her. He would not do these things if he was walking with one of his buddies. I call it being a gentleman. I don't see it as common courtesy and I realize that in the modern world it's becoming more uncommon. Poor kid I've made him a throwback  

It makes me a bit sad we have come to the point where the word gentleman has a negative connotation as if its a bad thing to be


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Oops, sorry coffee I didn't read your post properly, anyway it wouldn't be so bad if it doesn't bite us in the ass, but it does.



coffee4me said:


> Walking on the traffic side of the street.


Errr, actually I don't pay attention to that.



> Waiting until the female gets inside safely when dropping her off at her house.


Hmmm... yes, especially if it's an unsafe neighborhood, don't do it for guys actually. Seems this is one "chilvarous" thing I do, but don't get me wrong, I'm anti-chivalry so bah! 



> Putting yourself between potential harm and a female you are with.


Errr, do that with everyone, if something is falling on someone's head I'll grab it before it causes some injury. Not like I... watch the show.



> Getting the car in the rain.


Do that for everyone especially folks I invited out unless they don't mind (they don't most of the time getting a bit of rain)


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

coffee4me said:


> When my son walks down the street with my daughter he walks on the traffic side of the sidewalk. If he sees a shady looking guy up ahead he will gently take her arm and move her to his other side so he is near the shady character not her. He would not do these things if he was walking with one of his buddies. I call it being a gentleman. I don't see it as common courtesy and I realize that in the modern world it's becoming more uncommon. Poor kid I've made him a throwback


If your son does that in my city and the lady may cry "help! rape! I'm being attacked! by a touch on her arm" even if he's trying to move her away to his side of the street lol


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm... yes, especially if it's an unsafe neighborhood, don't do it for guys actually. Seems this is one "chilvarous" thing I do, but don't get me wrong, I'm anti-chivalry so bah! )


Oh my! I got you to admit that you actually do something chivalrous  

Thank you for answering the question


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Only cause it's something I can get away with it...

Unless some wackos start saying stuff like "OMG, the guy watches me as I enter the house instead of driving off, the perv!"
... wait, I think some already do that... SH-T... I have to stop!

And it's "chivalrous", not chivalrous, theres a difference 
Maybe a better term would be - protective?

Bah!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SA: "Well I guess it's official then , isn't it.... 

And just WHO are the mysogynists here ?? do you have a list who I cater to ??"

AP: "I'll be happy to PM you a list of names but won't post them."



SA: " No I am not suggesting this at all... but it would help if they both listened to each other ...... Don't you think that most of the issues here are blatant incompatibility, red flags they missed, ignored, didn't talk about the future enough, or people just CHANGED....or so much dysfunction before they met, they struggle to overcome."

AP: "some should never have married but many can be saved, I think. I think what you've said above, that so many of the people here should never have married or should not remain so indicates, to me at least, that the level of compatibility in your own marriage is unusually perfect. Being in a marriage where change has been profound and caused some serious incompatibility, I have seen how it can be worked out if we both commit to doing the work together. Marriage is hard for a lot of people, but for a lucky few, marriage is easy. You're one of the lucky few"



SA: " ... I figured as much.....ya know what though.. I feel on both sides of the aisle.. each movement has *Good hearted well intentioned people in it and the Radicals standing right beside them- who brings disgrace to the whole barrel of apples*. 

The thing is.. can a feminist admit this? I don't see this acknowledged near enough... It's more reduced to name calling , wanting the other side to just GO DIE.."

AP: "bolded part, totally agree. As I've said, I'm a feminist and I easily admit that some women who blog and make speeches about what the movement needs to work on...are NUTS! I personally don't spend much time reading or thinking about the radicals who claim to be feminists. But perhaps I should start? Perhaps I should attempt to police the crazies within this movement, call them out more openly and challenge their thinking?"



SA: "The losing respect.. if people here don't like me for who I am ..or feel I have anything worthy to add to this forum... I'm not going to lie, that STINGS.....and will continue to cause me to feel unwelcome here....it's a conflict to me.... if I want to remain, I will have to pull up my boot straps and find the strength to overcome.. That's all .

I can not deny how I feel when these subjects come up.. I feel as strongly as YOU DO - and do have my own opinions...if this keeps me locked out of the "sisterhood" here (which I never felt a part of anyway).. then so be it.. 

AP: " I have always enjoyed the vast majority of your posts. I adore how your love for your husband shines through in every word you write. I admire that and am sometimes envious of that kind of devotion. So please don't think I feel anything other than kindness toward you. 




SA: "I have a much humbler approach TO MEN and their issues....and it's not something I care to apologize for. "

AP: "I simply do NOT agree with a few things you say. I think they are colored by Rose tinted glasses based on the fact that you seem to have an unusually profound emotional connection and maybe, just maybe, you see your husband and sons faces when you read posts that call men out, or some men out, on their behavior. As a result, you cannot really hold some or all men accountable. You can hold a singular man accountable, but not as an admitted male trait. Anyway that what I think and I leave it up to you to decide if it fits or not."




SA: "When you come out lashing calling people wingnuts.. you've already shut down the communication.. causing them to put up their defenses...this is not how you effect change and healing IN ANY SORT Of relationship... (and I'd say this is probably the #1 problem with marriages here too).... You start by listening.. and trying to understand where someone else is coming from."

AP: "I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing you post in some of the more offensive threads littered with the wingnuts. So perhaps you've missed their absurdity. By quoting that woman about how men are turning away from marriage...that was something I find not only offensive, but the woman was dead wrong. I mean dead FVCKING wrong. She based her assumptions on something that it totally unrelated to the trend. I already listed why she was dead wrong and how I know this to be true. To continue to post such drivel is in itself offensive to women. " 




SA: " Nope ..you got this all wrong.. I am a REALIST ...I clearly see the tide in this modern world in relation to all my children.. Unfortunate to say...I don't have a lotta hope for her to find a wonderful man EASILY (HELL NO)... not in this value-less society today where everyone worships independence & success.. throwing sex around like it's nothing.. why the hell would a man even want to marry.. he gets all the lovin & variety he needs ... I feel bad for my daughter.. but I'll still raise her to be a lady non the less.. and our sons to be Gentleman .."

AP: " I wouldn't ever call you a realist.  You are an idealist through and through and there is nothing wrong with that.:smthumbup: your ideals color your view and perspective. And to an extent everyone does this. You allow your ideals of marriage, sex and love prevent you from having a very realistic understanding of the very real drawbacks associated with marriage sex and love. However, in your case SA, I absolutely believe that every single on of your children will enter marriage prepared to be as open, trusting and loving as you and your husband are. So long as they find mates who are just as open, trusting and loving...all will be well!



SA: "No.. I absolutely plan for her to go to college.. I am not an idealist...I know exactly what she stands to face in this world......and Coffee4me is right.. I believe strongly in covering all basis and living responsibly- on every front.. I abhor the idea of being in a hole, not being able to take care of myself ...pay a freaking bill. Responsibility is everything in life.. and for our choices so we don't blame anyone else."

AP: "excellent! I'm glad to hear this. Last time we shared on this subject you spoke of your concern for your daughter academically. It sounds as if she has turned a corner." :smthumbup: 



SA: "For the record.. I did have my share of HURT growing up.. and my H was bullied in early high school by A-holes.. so ya know what.. I don't come from PollyFvkingAnna roots as some may assume.... "

AP: "I apologize. I can see now how my statement about your and your H being without trauma made you feel minimized and thus discounted with regard to your marital ideals."




SA: "Appreciate you Coffee4me!  "

AP: "as do I. It's good to see people defending those they feel have been unnecessarily attacked. I had hoped to clear up the misconception that I was attacking you but I see I failed at that.

I want you to know you are an important and valued contributor here at TAM and I frequently like your posts. I disagree with you on a few things but I still think you bring value."


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> And when you do these things more for women you consider that just courtesy not gentlemanly? If thats the case are you then discourteous to men when you don't initiate carrying heavy things?


I consider it a courtesy and don't think of it as gentlemanly. For men I usually say something like "do you want me to help with that?" and let them refuse or not as they wish. You could call it discourteous but I am anticipating men prefer to do it themselves. And I'm sure there are women who would consider my action discourteous as well so if they say anything I do it the way the prefer. My daughter actually prefers to carry her stuff so I let her do it. 



coffee4me said:


> I'm not trying to pick on you I am really trying to see how this is viewed by people who just want common courtesy regardless of gender.
> 
> And thank you for answering my question about the specific behaviors I see where the practice of some of these things is becoming a thing of the past.


Yes upon reflection I found I'm much more asymmetric than I thought because of what you pointed out.



coffee4me said:


> When my son walks down the street with my daughter he walks on the traffic side of the sidewalk. If he sees a shady looking guy up ahead he will gently take her arm and move her to his other side so he is near the shady character not her. He would not do these things if he was walking with one of his buddies. I call it being a gentleman. I don't see it as common courtesy and I realize that in the modern world it's becoming more uncommon. Poor kid I've made him a throwback
> 
> It makes me a bit sad we have come to the point where the word gentleman has a negative connotation as if its a bad thing to be


Interesting. Doing something like moving a girl to one side or the other or changing the side of the street you are on is a prescription for confrontation where I grew up. Those actions would stand out that you are judging them as shady and undesirable which would insult them. This would then make them angry and more likely to start something. I would rather not insult people through implicit judgement than to appear gentlemanly. 

So I am not what you consider a gentleman but my interactions are courteous, friendly and helpful. 

That being said I don't consider being gentlemanly in a negative way just because I don't follow some of the typical actions of being a gentleman.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

meson said:


> Interesting. Doing something like moving a girl to one side or the other or changing the side of the street you are on is a prescription for confrontation where I grew up. Those actions would stand out that you are judging them as shady and undesirable which would insult them. This would then make them angry and more likely to start something. I would rather not insult people through implicit judgement than to appear gentlemanly.


Interesting to get your take on that type of behavior didn't look at it that way. 

I don't think he wouldn't ever change to the other side of the road he would consider that cowardice. he does still guide her to what he perceives to be the safest place, he does it to me also and it's more instinctual. He's been doing that since he was about 8 years old. It's a defensive move being prepared. He also doesn't look past them when he passes by he might throw out a greeting or a head nod. He walks with confidence and he's a big guy I don't think he is concerned that someone will start something.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

SA and AP: two of my favorite people on TAM. I admire you both but identify more with SA as far as tradition, marriage, and gender roles. However I respect both of your sides of the table and acknowledge that Pink has given me some wonderful advice over the years I have been on TAM. 

In my opinion, it is essential that non-mainstream views on high-traffic forums like TAM be voiced. I think there will always be silent lurkers who are looking for support in living out their values who can be helped by the expression of non-mainstream views so that they know there is another way. 

I personally don't think like most TAM viewers on many topics. I believe a big part of this is how I was raised. I come from a huge African American Christian family, most of whom live in the Northeast, but our patriarchs and matriarchs have their roots in the South. So most of what SA speaks about are our core family values, although many have strayed from them. Actually some that have admit that they did, and that they failed to raise their children the way they should have, and regret it now that it's too late. 

These values were also taught in most of my friends' lives (I am 29) but we spent most of our teenage years trying get around them. Now for most of my friends, they are no longer important. That doesn't matter to me, because I have found that they work for me and for my marriage, for the most part. My husband was not raised with strong Christian values, but he was raised to be a leader, a protector, and a provider of the home. From his late teens to early 20's he lived nothing like that, in fact he classifies himself as being promiscuous. I personally think his charisma and edge made it too easy for him live that lifestyle. He quickly got fed up with that lifestyle and desired to get away from it, get in a stable relationship, and be the man he was taught to be. 

As far as chivalry, he has always done most of the things on the chilvalrous list. I appreciate these things that he does for me and I do not look at them as just common courtesy. I look at them as being a gentlemanly thing to do for a lady. I think Coffee4Me expressed it excellently.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

A lot of things listed just seem like good manners to me and doesn't really apply to gender imo.
Personally if a guy was doing things for me that are seen as chivalry (pulling out my seat, getting the car when it rained ect) I'd feel pretty uncomfortable.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Only cause it's something I can get away with it...
> 
> Unless some wackos start saying stuff like "OMG, the guy watches me as I enter the house instead of driving off, the perv!"
> ... wait, I think some already do that... SH-T... I have to stop!
> ...


Why do I get the feeling for the right lady there's a gentleman inside of you RD


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

coffee4me said:


> I see some acts as chivalry that I don't categorize as common courtesy because they are specifically acts that a man does for a woman.
> 
> Walking on the traffic side of the street.
> 
> ...


I've only scanned the more recent posts so as to spend less time here, part of my slow withdrawal from TAM, but I read this and my friends and I would wait to see we are inside safely. We will text or call each other to ensure we arrived home okay if we were out at night and home by taxi or driving. 

There are some courtesies that are reserved for lovers though. Or at least, should be.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> The losing respect.. if people here don't like me for who I am ..or feel I have anything worthy to add to this forum... I'm not going to lie, that STINGS.....and will continue to cause me to feel unwelcome here....it's a conflict to me.... if I want to remain, I will have to pull up my boot straps and find the strength to overcome.. That's all .


I know you have felt this before and I have challenged whether it really matters whether you are liked here or not. Of course we are social creatures and crave connection, what we desire from here, is individual. I feel the melting pot of views and experiences with marriages, divorce and relationships, is what has the potential to make this place interesting. You are entitled to your feelings and opinions, just as we all are. Ideally these differences ought to be able to be expressed in a way that is respectful. Personally I think if we're starting to take posts or the forum too much to heart, that's a good time to step back and gain perspective again. 

What I would like to chime in with is when you have shared views of how you treat your husband; to me it's a given that your needs are also being met. I have read of posts of how you feel your husband meets your needs and how you are there for each other. My perception has been that you have shared how you felt about your own previous actions in your marriage and how you have learned what builds a close bond between you and your husband - expressing what you do for him. SA, our take on some things may be different at times, our needs in our marriages may be different, but that's what makes reading your views interesting. 

I didn't post on the thread but you have one in Long Term Success. It was only when I read it very recently, that I was ready to really take in what you were expressing and how these things do positively impact my husband and our marriage. Of course the flip-side to that is what my husband contributes to our marriage and how he treats me also. It's a balance, where one feeds the other. Or at least, that's how things ought to naturally roll. I'm slowly cutting back on TAM time. I had an hour of spare time until needing to collect my husband from the airport. Instead of jumping on here, I picked up the tools and put together his home-office furniture. He was wrapped. Admittedly I was proud of myself too as that's not normally my bag. Sometimes it's just having simple consideration for the other. This is the type of positive perspective I gain from your posts. 

There are of course views I have of feminism. I prefer not to debate and share those views in this medium.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> For instance.. this comment by batsociety.. now it is JUST ME.. or is this suggesting that a Traditional idea of gender roles = misogynistic mindset ... am I reading too much into this post?? ... From where I stand ...such comments shoot out at me inbetween the eyes. And I find them judging how I personally think.... in fact damning ME..... anytime a feminist starts on the Patriarchy, you know SHE IS HEATED & has something to unleash that she's hell bent AGAINST...... and in this example.. it is those Traditional views... can't you see the CONFLICT here - in my mind ?


That was not at all what I was implying. I was saying that traditional gender roles are to blame for many MEN'S struggles when it comes to divorce and custody issues, because the patriarchy dictates that WOMEN are supposed to be better at raising children. This results in women being given primary custody even when the father may be better suited to the job. No one is attacking you for having a family set up that may be percieved as more "traditional".

My "misogynistic mindset" comment was directed at groups who call themselves "men's rights activists". They ARE misogynistic. They think they are entitled to a woman's body, they think that domestic and sexual violence is all fine and dandy when it happens to a woman - or, they don't believe it happens at all - BUT they are happy to complain about the secrecy around it when it happens to men and complain that women and feminists are to blame and that they don't give a ****. Which they do, and any rational person knows that the reason why men are so hesitant to come forward about being raped or assaulted is because the PATRIARCHY (here we go again, right?) also dictates that men are supposed to be strong and basically free of any emotion. They are afraid of looking like pussies because that kind of thing is not supposed to happen to men.

THIS is what I am talking about when talk about how harmful traditional gender roles are. I don't give a sh*t about you and your husband and how you guys do things - it is none of my business. I give a sh*t about my daughters growing up in a society where they're shamed for their sexuality but my sons are praised for it. I give a sh*t because my daughters could be KILLED for rejecting a man's advances, because women are typically expected to be submissive to men. I care because I used to get the sh*t kicked out of me every day in high school because I was gay, and that made me a target for the other kids to demonstrate what it meant to be a "real man". I care because there are thousands of kids like me who take their own lives because of this. I care because people keep implying that my husband and I are "selfish" and horrible because we are depriving our children of a mother - of course, they don't know that our kids came out of my body because they refuse to acknowledge that things like gender and sex are not as simple as they'd like to think. 

Again, no one cares about how you choose to live your life. If it works for you and it's your choice to live that way, fine, fantastic. But you have to understand that the issue here runs so much deeper. You can't just say "oh, this isn't a problem" because it's not a problem for you.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

batsociety said:


> That was not at all what I was implying. I was saying that traditional gender roles are to blame for many MEN'S struggles when it comes to divorce and custody issues, because the patriarchy dictates that WOMEN are supposed to be better at raising children. This results in women being given primary custody even when the father may be better suited to the job. No one is attacking you for having a family set up that may be percieved as more "traditional".
> 
> My "misogynistic mindset" comment was directed at groups who call themselves "men's rights activists". They ARE misogynistic. They think they are entitled to a woman's body, they think that domestic and sexual violence is all fine and dandy when it happens to a woman - or, they don't believe it happens at all - BUT they are happy to complain about the secrecy around it when it happens to men and complain that women and feminists are to blame and that they don't give a ****. Which they do, and any rational person knows that the reason why men are so hesitant to come forward about being raped or assaulted is because the PATRIARCHY (here we go again, right?) also dictates that men are supposed to be strong and basically free of any emotion. They are afraid of looking like pussies because that kind of thing is not supposed to happen to men.
> 
> ...


hate much?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> hate much?


How is that hate?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I am sorry that you feel any 'male support group' automatically hates on women and wants rape to be legal. Incredibly naïve. There is a backlash to feminism and it is clearly needed.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

1st I want to say AnonP ....







for taking the time to post ... giving me the benefit of the doubt .. with your honesty.. that always gives something to work with.. to find some common ground.. 



Anon Pink said:


> AP: "I'll be happy to PM you a list of names but won't post them."


I am not going to ask ...though I suspect 2 posters who are now gone would be on that list, CM being one of them..I am aware a # of women posters here hated him ..and I know the disdain you had for the other... He was VERY Traditional and he did attack YOU once on a thread where he went TOO FAR & I pointed it out to him.... 

This is how I feel...I won't suck up to anyone here , male or female, for acceptance.. if I like something someone says, I may comment on it....many times I withhold even that...as to not further alienate myself with some of the women here..



> AP: "some should never have married but many can be saved, I think. I think what you've said above, that so many of the people here should never have married or should not remain so indicates, to me at least, that the level of compatibility in your own marriage is unusually perfect. Being in a marriage where change has been profound and caused some serious incompatibility, I have seen how it can be worked out if we both commit to doing the work together. Marriage is hard for a lot of people, but for a lucky few, marriage is easy. You're one of the lucky few"










and I admire the determination & struggle many go through ....holding on for years even ...working at it.....without getting their emotional needs met yet -but doing what they can to woo the other.....

Would I stay in some of those marriage.. I don't believe so... so that in effect makes them *more loving* than I would ever be...to their awesome credit for determination & not giving up , sacrificing for the love of their children. 

If a couple is banging their heads against the wall out of major differences -even though they are decent self aware individuals/ just can't see eye to eye.... I'm all for ending it...Life is too short ....find another who appreciates the way they are wired... 

Maybe seeing the complete contrast with my Parents is why I feel so strongly.. My Mom & Dad fought *like hell* when they were married.. (major incompatibilities)....then he married my step Mom a week after the divorce... and WOW...they were another of those picture perfect inseparable matches...38 yrs later- still going strong... although I hated her in my teens... she has been the greatest blessing to his life.. and today I thank GOD for that woman many times over... .. That's what a difference compatibility can make when "it's right"... 

Some of the things I read on this forum.. no way in hell would I be able to stand being with some of these men.. and they sure wouldn't want me either-but another may enjoy what they are .. ya know. 



> AP: "bolded part, totally agree. As I've said, I'm a feminist and I easily admit that some women who blog and make speeches about what the movement needs to work on...are NUTS! I personally don't spend much time reading or thinking about the radicals who claim to be feminists. But perhaps I should start? Perhaps I should attempt to police the crazies within this movement, call them out more openly and challenge their thinking?"


 I don't know whether you are saying this tongue in cheek or not.. ..I just feel we should all be able to acknowledge that their is good & bad on both sides... Just reading Batsociety's post -she is doing it again.....



> *My "misogynistic mindset" comment was directed at groups who call themselves "men's rights activists". They ARE misogynistic.*


 I disagree with this, she lumped every man who finds SOME understanding to their plight a woman hater.. is this not the same thing feminists do... they can not acknowledge the fact that there are decent people in both camps.. Can we just admit ...the Radicals get the majority of the Press/ the attention.. so each side tunes the other out, lumps them all together.. *communication lost.*.... ALL SEE HATE...they accuse feminists of misandry...contempt against men.. while the other side is holding up "misogyny" signs.. 

And on it goes.. And those on the side lines. like myself , I am willing to read & Hear both sides.. True, I am not in the thick of these issues.. but I'd love to see more peace / understanding between the sexes.. 



> AP: " I have always enjoyed the vast majority of your posts. I adore how your love for your husband shines through in every word you write. I admire that and am sometimes envious of that kind of devotion. So please don't think I feel anything other than kindness toward you.
> 
> 
> AP: "I simply do NOT agree with a few things you say. I think they are colored by Rose tinted glasses based on the fact that you seem to have an unusually profound emotional connection and maybe, just maybe, you see your husband and sons faces when you read posts that call men out, or some men out, on their behavior. As a result, you cannot really hold some or all men accountable. You can hold a singular man accountable, but not as an admitted male trait. Anyway that what I think and I leave it up to you to decide if it fits or not."


 I can most definitely admit that I have a







for the NICER gentleman type on this forum if I feel they are like my husband.....and he's suffering... 

I feel my H is not like most men.. he's got the same temperament profile as Mother Teresa for goodness sakes......I think it's like 8% of men -where women are over 19% of the population (the ISFJ)...If we want to get into stereotyping...my H's temperament is the most likely to be a doormat & the most feminine for a man.. isn't that [email protected]#$ ....but he is an amazing man.. and worthy of respect even if he is tipped Beta..(I still consider that good Beta).. 

And I also realize SOME women, with a stronger personality- *like myself *- CAN take advantage of the kind nature of these sort of men...if I was a raging ***** (& believe me I am capable) ..he'd probably let me.. and love too much....there is a need for books like "No more Mr Nice Guy".. 

In the next breath.. do I feel most men are like my husband --absolutely HELL NO [email protected]#$ I think most would F*** a hot girl if he was alone with her overnight -if he wouldn't get caught, most are far less romantic & feeling over my man.. a great majority TUNE their wives out & act like they are listening (but then many women talk too much -which doesn't help matters)..I could go on & on... I absolutely acknowledge a good # can be ba**ardly to live with...

I DO sympathize with any women who is not getting their deepest needs met.. but I also come to realize women seem to be attracted to these A-holes..it's not something I understand so much.. if the red flags were there.. WHY.. if a man or woman changes after the vows.. that's just tragic.. it's like a misrepresentation.. I would understand being mad as hell  



> AP: "I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing you post in some of the more offensive threads littered with the wingnuts. So perhaps you've missed their absurdity. By quoting that woman about how men are turning away from marriage...that was something I find not only offensive, but the woman was dead wrong. I mean dead FVCKING wrong. She based her assumptions on something that it totally unrelated to the trend. I already listed why she was dead wrong and how I know this to be true. To continue to post such drivel is in itself offensive to women. "


Well ...we'll have to agree to disagree here..







...there is no way to even touch on the scope of these issues in a few sentences on a thread.. of course it's true many men are getting lost in video games...it's an epidemic .. just like porn is for far too many ... but it's so much MORE .... this author hasn't put up a wall but has listened to many of these men's stories & experiences ....so you are suggesting they are all lying...manipulating.... 

I feel often times many feminists want to *tell men* how to think and what is wrong with them .. but refuse to listen to their side....and this is very offensive to the man..so much of that, he will just throw his hands up in the air , say "F*** it "... then look for a place where he WON'T be attacked.. and yeah, he may end up on one of those websites...not all men agree with everything written there any more than all feminists agree....that's laughable...can we be reasonable here.. feminists are all over the map! 

I don't even think all men in the "Pick up artist" arena (which I loathe) are ALL bad, I know Deejo gets into that sort of learning and I know he is *smart enough* to gleam what can be helpful & throw out the rest ... so it's true with others who happen to be involved in these groups.. 

For Batsociety to lump them all together ... suggesting they are ALL entitled to a woman's body & they think that domestic & sexual violence is all fine and dandy ... that is obscenely slamming/ judgmental and any decent man will come back pi$$ed off reading that if this is not true of him.. and I wouldn't blame him a bit...... again.. this is no different than how Radical feminists attack men...she can not speak for all these men.. just like none of them can speak for all feminists.... but we sure like to make blanket statements.... then jump on someone else for "generalizing"... 



> AP: " I wouldn't ever call you a realist.  You are an idealist through and through and there is nothing wrong with that.:smthumbup: your ideals color your view and perspective. And to an extent everyone does this. You allow your ideals of marriage, sex and love prevent you from having a very realistic understanding of the very real drawbacks associated with marriage sex and love. However, in your case SA, I absolutely believe that every single on of your children will enter marriage prepared to be as open, trusting and loving as you and your husband are. So long as they find mates who are just as open, trusting and loving...all will be well!


 I will grant you that I am an idealist in regards to MY OWN Marriage because we have 33 yrs of history... BUT I disagree that I am an idealist in regards to others. 

I am pretty pessimistic in reality, I am a melancholy after all.. .. if someone comes to me for advice, I would seriously point out every emotional / financially/ love languaged pitfall that could befall them to contemplate a future.....I am overly cautious, I do NOT trust easily , I want to hear the history of people.. JLD is an idealist. she expects the best from everyone.. ME.. ha ha ha.. laughable.. .. I actually expect the worst...I want to see where all the DIRT is.. then I am delighted when I am wrong about someone... I am one of those people who are overly concerned to cover all basis & be prepared *for the worst*.. does that sound like an Idealist to you.. Come on now! 

So yeah.. I feel I am more of a Realist - when it comes to what I see in this world.. and modern relationships. 



> AP: "excellent! I'm glad to hear this. Last time we shared on this subject you spoke of your concern for your daughter academically. It sounds as if she has turned a corner."


:smthumbup: No, she still doesn't like school and is not the brightest in her studies.. she is full of common sense though, a hard worker, always so helpful, and dependable. 

You know what I tell her.. I lay it on the line.. that yes, she will have to go to college because if not, she will be deemed worthless to society, men want educated women with a skill... don't look at me, as I am not an acceptable example ...even though she loves me , I live a "cake walk"... it's not the day I grew up in.. in today's society without a degree, you might as well shoot yourself in the head.. she will only face DOOM ...combine that with marrying an A-hole who abuses her...(and she better listen to mom when it comes to men).... 

See I'm a realist. I know what she faces.. I also encourage her in a more loving way over this...of course!... but I am not one to spare the harsh realities either... (and neither is dad, he is pessimistic minded too- and likes to point out every pit fall that can come so we..& our kids can avoid them). 



> AP: "I apologize. I can see now how my statement about your and your H being without trauma made you feel minimized and thus discounted with regard to your marital ideals."


 I have probably been more OPEN on this forum than any member in regards to my/our lives ...and struggles, though much smaller scale over most.. but there are things I will NEVER share on this forum in regards to my difficult experiences -upbringing.. ...I will not be that vulnerable with strangers...just have it be known...I have cried many tears over certain things that I can not change....I have had to grieve and will continue to do so...where others would never understand.. I carry it alone..(this is outside of my H & kids, they are my solace, yes)...

As for using the term "*GOAL*" for wanting marriage/kids when I was a teen... ....not grasping my whole experience, I can't expect others to understand me.. but I will not downplay that just because feminists tell me that's a stupid desire.... it was never that I expected a free ride...I feel strongly about contributing what needs done in a healthy relationship/ marriage & that means working HARD , anything to pay the bills, to keep us afloat if needed..as I did back then & would do again in a heartbeat. 



> AP: "as do I. It's good to see people defending those they feel have been unnecessarily attacked. I had hoped to clear up the misconception that I was attacking you but I see I failed at that.
> I want you to know you are an important and valued contributor here at TAM and I frequently like your posts. I disagree with you on a few things but I still think you bring value."


 Nothing wrong with that.. its funny, even with some of my favorite posters here...there are areas ...WOW do we see things differently ... but it's because we are wired differently..take JLD for instance.. .. it's like our Husbands have some fundamental things in common (that Protect & Provide thing, very traditional men )....then my oh my...our H's are an about face/ 90% degree turn in a couple other areas....but it doesn't matter at all.. because what DUG is ...WORKS for her/ she is attracted to his intelligence and Unmovable- stable ways..... and what mine is..(more sensitive /Romantic) WORKS for me....

And true...both of us, if we could , would tune this or that up a notch or 2 ...(emotion in hers, roughness in mine)... but that's normal in any relationship...just like in yours you'd tune up his "words of affirmation"... 

So the point I am trying to make is.. there is nothing wrong with us having differing mindsets and views ....it doesn't make you or me wrong..or JLD..... but it sure helps when we're with someone who feels similar to us!!! 

True .. many of us could NEVER be married [email protected]#...and just reading here could help us suddenly be very thankful for what we have at home..


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't know whether you are saying this tongue in cheek or not.. ..I just feel we should all be able to acknowledge that their is good & bad on both sides... Just reading Batsociety's post -she is doing it again.....
> 
> I disagree with this, she lumped every man who finds SOME understanding to their plight a woman hater.. is this not the same thing feminists do... they can not acknowledge the fact that there are decent people in both camps.. Can we just admit ...the Radicals get the majority of the Press/ the attention.. so each side tunes the other out, lumps them all together.. *communication lost.*.... ALL SEE HATE...they accuse feminists of misandry...contempt against men.. while the other side is holding up "misogyny" signs..
> 
> ...


SA, trust me, if you saw the way these specific groups talk about women, you would understand why I am calling them misogynistic. I am not talking about every single man. I am not talking about every single man who is concerned about the issues facing men. I am talking about certain GROUPS of men, and I am not making obscene generalizations about _them_. Have a look at A Voice for Men â€“ Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry, their forum section in particular. Although maybe it won't do anything for you because "Men On Strike" is recommended in their "suggested reading" list.

But did you read my entire post? Do you otherwise understand where I am coming from? 

Oh and BTW, *I am not a woman*, so you can stop misgendering me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

batsociety said:


> SA, trust me, if you saw the way these specific groups talk about women, you would understand why I am calling them misogynistic. I am not talking about every single man. I am not talking about every single man who is concerned about the issues facing men. I am talking about certain GROUPS of men, and I am not making obscene generalizations about _them_. Have a look at A Voice for Men â€“ Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry, their forum section in particular. Although maybe it won't do anything for you because "Men On Strike" is recommended in their "suggested reading" list.
> 
> But did you read my entire post? Do you otherwise understand where I am coming from?
> 
> Oh and BTW, *I am not a woman*, so you can stop misgendering me.


I did realize you were a man & when posting forgot in the moment...sorry about that .. so yes it was caught... for a time now, It was a question in my mind , wasn't sure how to address you..

I do not have anything against homosexuals & have argued for understanding with numerous christians, just for your Information... so don't think I am in the camp that hates here..just because I am more traditionally minded.. 

I have visited some of those Websites for pure curiosity, if I may be so honest, I see as much belittling THERE as I do on any feminist forum...or in their articles.... so Again.. I will not lump everyone on these sites in the same camp.. 

You are free to label me as an idiot & try to convince me every man on there is hateful & a scumbag...but I won't agree.. I look at people individually..look at the heart, listen to their experience ...then go from there. 

And I happen to LIKE Helen Smith's book.. she gave a listing of a # of other books dealing with men's issues.... 

*1.* Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men into Boys  

*2.* Save the Males: Why Men Matter Why Women Should Care 

*3.*  Guyland: The Perilous World Where Boys Become Men 

*4.* Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men 

*5*. Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That's Leaving Them Behind 

*6*. The End of Men: And the Rise of Women ...

She gave her perspective on each of these...they all have some slant to them.. as any book does...Radical Feminists would most enjoy *#6* as it blames men for ...well everything.. everything is their fault of course...Loser men are referred to as "Cardboard men" who are inflexible & unable to adapt to the new world order. ...she uses terms like Clowns, failures, unmotivated and child-men. Some feel she judges too much on "class"- the working poor vs the rich & successful.... I am sure I would despise her attitude if I picked that book up!

In *Boys Adrift* & *Manning up*.....it speaks of this extended adolescence where men sit around all day playing video games..what Anon Pink was talking about...

In *Manning Up* & *Save the males*.. she feels the authors paint a picture deserving equality but rather they should be treated well enough so they will WANT to marry women, have children & support them so WOMEN will have a better life.. 

Personally I could get behind that .. but Helen takes it a step further focusing on justice & equality & the pursuit of their OWN happiness because they are human beings in a free society. (not that I am against this.. but just saying. she really doesn't care about Men still wanting to get married.. where I kinda like that idea ... 

Helen Smith is coming from this perspective.. What is it about our society that has made growing up seem so unattractive to these men? ....It used to be that being a grown up, responsible man was rewarded with respect, power and deference.. Not so much anymore..I just happen to agree with much of what she has laid out..through the eyes of many men's experiences..

Didn't read the whole thing though.


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## Aspydad (Oct 17, 2013)

batsociety said:


> That was not at all what I was implying. I was saying that traditional gender roles are to blame for many MEN'S struggles when it comes to divorce and custody issues, because the patriarchy dictates that WOMEN are supposed to be better at raising children. This results in women being given primary custody even when the father may be better suited to the job. No one is attacking you for having a family set up that may be percieved as more "traditional".
> 
> I think women generally are better at taking care of children. Is this true 100% of the time - NO. Our court systems do not have the bandwidth to do a detailed comparison for each divorce - can you just imaging the time and money needed to fight that one out!! Considering most of the time the man is the primary bread winner - I would say that it works out most of the time for him to have to leave the marital home. Now, if the wife turns out to be unfit, then the child needs to be given to the father.
> 
> ...


You not correct here - I care about what people on this forum share - that's why I am on here as there is so much real life experiences that I have not experienced - so this is one way that I can better myself. I have three children and I know that their life will not be perfect even though I try my best to protect them - so I believe that I can be a better father / husband by see what people on here do right - and what they do wrong.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

batsociety said:


> SA, trust me, if you saw the way these specific groups talk about women, you would understand why I am calling them misogynistic. I am not talking about every single man. I am not talking about every single man who is concerned about the issues facing men. I am talking about certain GROUPS of men, and I am not making obscene generalizations about _them_. Have a look at A Voice for Men – Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry, their forum section in particular. Although maybe it won't do anything for you because "Men On Strike" is recommended in their "suggested reading" list.
> 
> But did you read my entire post? Do you otherwise understand where I am coming from?
> 
> Oh and BTW, *I am not a woman*, so you can stop misgendering me.



You are a hermaphrodite. As a parent of a gay daughter and an aunt to a ftm nephew, you are insisting people understand you and who you are with out benefit of having to explain, and that is 
unfair.

I have read some of your posts in this thread and I think your personal anger is the driving force and not so much the issue being discussed here.

I'm quite certain you have suffered greatly, not fitting in anywhere and not being able to understand yourself until much later in the game. I'm sure you have suffered more than your share of rejection and I know that hurts incredibly!

I disagree with some of the things you've accused the "patriarchy" of perpetrating against women. Perhaps during the sufferage movement, perhaps during the women's lib movement, this mythical patriarchy was firmly in place. But I do not see it today.

What we have instead are hurt individuals who are accusing an entire group of people of being the perpetrators when really it is a simple collection of like minded people. Whether radical feminists or rabid red pillers, they're all off base and they've all been pushed into orbit by an individual (s) and not by the patriarchy or by the feminists.


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