# Does staying with a cheating woman forever make a man a Beta



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Title says it all.

I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.

So life goes on.

Once a Beta forever I guess.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Oh good grief. What you did does not make you a beta.

It can take a much stronger, more alpha, man to do what you did. It's easy to just get pissed, scream and holler and throw her out. It's a lot harder to deal with the hurt and fix your marriage with a level head.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

love=pain said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
> I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.
> ...


Not at all. You are an alpha. 

The real beta? He who has to take the leavings of a married man, like an hyena.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

that does not make you a beta...that makes you a real man who is willing to see the greater of his family over himself. and i hope its a reminder to your wife that she should be damn lucky to have a real man at home...instead of stud who is only good for one thing....here is my question to you has she repented ?
has she become the woman/mom/wife you need ?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

It depends on how you define 'alpha', which is something that even men who deem themselves as such disagree on. It's just a word. The main trait of an alpha when it comes to decisions is being decisive and taking the lead. If you did anything resembling that, then good for you. 

The main thing is, did you do the right thing? Sounds like you did what you thought was best. Keep making it work.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

And the first 3 commenters offer..... SUNSHINE! You'll glow when you walk.

Female hypergamy makes women tend to want to mate with the most attractive, "alpha" male that they can get. Note that I did not say that it causes all women to do that, just that it subconsciously pushes them in that direction, probably with a bunch of evolutionary urges that I'll not list or debate.

So what happens when a wife cheats? Well, she has found someone whom she, by default, finds more "alpha" than the guy she is cheating on. So even if you're alpha, after you've been cheated on, you aren't the most alpha guy in your wife's life. She proved that, at least to herself, when she took the other man into her.

Alpha traits include demanding loyalty from their women, while not necessarily giving it in return. They can get away with dating multiple women because they're so rich / handsome / charismatic. Standard girl dream is to "tame" and alpha, and get him to commit to her and settle down.

But let's go back to the "demanding loyalty" part. After the wife has hiked up her skirt for the man she thinks is hotter, and gets pumped-n-dumped, or has her affair discovered, and is feeling all scarlet letter-ey, the husband either takes her back, or doesn't. 

Taking a woman back after she has demonstrated that she was disloyal to you is not a move of strength. It does not show that you have superior character. Rather, it shows that you will accept INFERIOR character.

And to maintain your peace of mind, you have to demand "full disclosure" from her. Going forward in the relationship, you have to spend your time and resources verifying her fidelity. Instead of doing your thing and her following along behind you because you're SO DAMN INTERESTING, you always have to look behind you to make sure she's still with you. Double-plus-un-sexy.

Xenote can equate being a family man with being a good man and calling that alpha. And it can be. But being a good provider is a BETA trait. And being a good provider to a wife who "provided" for somebody else just ain't alpha, no matter how you try and wish it to be true.

MattMatt can say that beta = ******* who banged your wife, but he is making the argument that the guy your wife found more attractive is the inferior man. That guy is definitely an *******, and he has flawed morals, but you can't call him beta compared to the husband who should have gotten fidelity and is willing to settle for taking back his morally flawed wife.

Elegirl... well, she probably just asked herself, "what would I tell him if I was his wife?"


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Not at all. You are an alpha.
> 
> The real beta? He who has to take the leavings of a married man, like an hyena.


Ummmm. No. :rofl:


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

Wives don't just cheat with men who are "more alpha." That's a generalization that is obviously false.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

martyc47 said:


> Wives don't just cheat with men who are "more alpha." That's a generalization that is obviously false.


Most are, but some are just new and shiny, without anything else going for them.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Unfortunately, you missed your opportunity to be a real alpha.

You didn't beat your chest, throw your poop, and keep your bananas all to yourself instead of sharing them.

Too bad you chose to take a step up the evolutionary ladder and try forgiveness.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

NotLikeYou said:


> Note that I did not say that it causes all women to do that, just that it subconsciously pushes them in that direction, probably with a bunch of evolutionary urges that I'll not list or debate.
> 
> *As a biologist, I would be enthralled to hear your list.*
> 
> ...


To a point in the beginning, verification is needed by the betrayed spouse as a way to begin building trust. It's as simple as that, and if a wayward spouse has an issue with that, then they truly aren't remorseful for their actions.

Basically, your entire argument just sounds like that shaggy blonde haired guy in 'Good Will Hunting'. You spout off a bunch of stuff you've read, but you have no idea of the true workings of the human condition. Do you like apples?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Regret214 said:


> Do you like apples?


Ha!

Alpha, Beta... Who cares, right? As long as you're not a Lambda (Lambda Lambda)...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

martyc47 said:


> Wives don't just cheat with men who are "more alpha." That's a generalization that is obviously false.


Indeed this is very true. They may cheat with their Beta close male friend.

But getting into an EA via Beta closeness can turn into romance which leads quickly to sexual attraction which provides the dopamine. And the Alpha traist may be unveiled.

Anyway I think there is a complete misuse here of the terms Alpha and Beta.

A combination of Alpha and Beta skills are a good thing. Lack of Alpha and Beta skilles can leave a man without the tools he needs. Another man can fille the void with a combination to fullfil what the husband is lacking.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

OMG, I'm showing my age if I say I remember watching that on a VCR!!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Ha!
> 
> Alpha, Beta... Who cares, right? As long as you're not a Lambda (Lambda Lambda)...


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Yay Nerds!!


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

NotLikeYou said:


> And the first 3 commenters offer..... SUNSHINE! You'll glow when you walk.
> 
> Female hypergamy makes women tend to want to mate with the most attractive, "alpha" male that they can get. Note that I did not say that it causes all women to do that, just that it subconsciously pushes them in that direction, probably with a bunch of evolutionary urges that I'll not list or debate.
> 
> ...


Look at you all alpha chest thumping, you'll never get cheated on because you talk so tough and chicks dig that.. you have it all figured out. You have all the answers, so you'll never get cheated on again.. you read books, you lift weights. You're a stud. 

You found the magic cure for infidelity that will make you so super human, that women will drop their pants for you as you walk down the street. They will sense the alpha, and knock the beta or gamma husband over to mate with you mr. alpha male, to make better babies.. It's science!

Did Elegirl hurt your feelings, by implying that someone that chooses to fix a marriage instead of divorcing is strong, her trying to make someone feel better.. did that make you feel sad? You can be strong too.. okay? don't be threatened, that's not very alpha of you. Embrace that you can be strong, and people that choose to R can be strong too. We can talk tough like you do. We have hair on our chests too.. and we can thump it. I'm hitting mine right now, and grunting. ugh.



If I were your wife, I wouldn't want you to take me back because you sound like you've gone beyond alpha to alphahole...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

martyc47 said:


> Wives don't just cheat with men who are "more alpha." That's a generalization that is obviously false.


In all cases? No, certainly not. But the majority of them...? Maybe, but who knows? Either way...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


>


:lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> OMG, I'm showing my age if I say I remember watching that on a VCR!!


Not Beta Max?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)




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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Regret214 said:


> OMG, I'm showing my age if I say I remember watching that on a VCR!!


Hey, me too! And I'm not that old...





OK, maybe I am...


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Not Beta Max?


My father totally had a Beta player. I knew Mom would cheat on him....


:rofl:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


>


Might need to head over to bit.ly to make that URL happen...


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Hey, me too! And I'm not that old...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL. It's okay. I mean between your avatar and Entropy3000, you're both obviously old guys.

:rofl:

I only know Iron Man is an old comic because Dig said so. I really have no clue, but I'm still a big John Candy fan!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Might need to head over to bit.ly to make that URL happen...


Yup, saw that. I just picked another graphic.

Then there is this.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> OMG, I'm showing my age if I say I remember watching that on a VCR!!


You ain't getting any sympathy from me girl. I was here awhile before anybody heard of VCR players and you were little more than a gleam in you daddy's eye.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh, and love=pain, this is what I've got to say to you. As a woman who chose to have an affair and is working on reconciliation with my husband, I'd say you're perfect for who you are. Period. Please don't get hung up in the Greek alphabet as related to packs of wolves because you gave your wife a gift by wanting to attempt to reconcile. To me, that shows extreme inner strength.

By the way, did you know that those studies on wolf packs are mostly invalid? I mean, they studied wolves in captivity when they did this alpha stuff. Real wolves that live in the wild do not exhibit the tendencies they spout. In other words, it's bunk.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


> Not Beta Max?


Huh? What's a VCR?

Virtual Cheater Radar?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NotLikeYou said:


> Elegirl... well, she probably just asked herself, "what would I tell him if I was his wife?"


What kind of stupid, dumb a$$ comment is this? You don't know me but you make up the motive for why I posted something?



I've been through what the OP has been through. I strongly believe it takes more strength of character to rebuild a marriage into a good marriage then it does to just dump 'em.

Next time, trying just speaking for yourself and not assigning motives to other people based on your own biases.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I was a helluva lot more alpha than my exWW's OM....in every conceivable way. Only difference between me and him is he made more money. That's it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But, but, but....Jane Goodall said in her book that she preferred silver back gorillas who horded more bananas. She's obviously saying she prefers an alpha-rilla. So, your exWW fell for an alpha-rilla? Oh, dear what will Mr. Kay say on his blog about you, sir?


So sorry.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> Oh, and love=pain, this is what I've got to say to you. As a woman who chose to have an affair and is working on reconciliation with my husband, I'd say you're perfect for who you are. Period. Please don't get hung up in the Greek alphabet as related to packs of wolves because you gave your wife a gift by wanting to attempt to reconcile. To me, that shows extreme inner strength.
> 
> By the way, did you know that those studies on wolf packs are mostly invalid? I mean, they studied wolves in captivity when they did this alpha stuff. Real wolves that live in the wild do not exhibit the tendencies they spout. In other words, it's bunk.


They are only metaphors. Alpha / Beta are just references to traits for ease of discussion. Though some either do not get it or do not want to get it.

You do not need studies to live your life. They may or may not validate your observations. Agendas come in all forms. Studies can be interesting data to augment observations and real life experiences.

It once was believed that women suffered from hysteria. One can have all the pertinent data and make all the wrong conclusions. Also true of observations. Not everyone is a critical thinker though. I learned that on the road less travelled.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Once a Beta forever I guess.


Forever only if you choose forever. What does the alpha leader of a company do when others don't cut the mustard. He gets rid of them and finds replacements that better suits the needs . Treat your spouse the same. Don't kid yourself my man, if you ain't running the MFing place, she is and getting bored with you by the minute. In the relationship, men are either the CEO, Senior Partner, or Stock Clerk/Maintenance boy/gofor charged with supplying needs, keeping up the facilities, and schmoozing the Queen. Pick which you want to be. There are no other positions open. Forget the 50:50. It fantasy.

Edit: Women don't go find an interesting man and cheat on you. They lose interest in you and go find an interesting man.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> But, but, but....Jane Goodall said in her book that she preferred silver back gorillas who horded more bananas. She's obviously saying she prefers an alpha-rilla. So, your exWW fell for an alpha-rilla? Oh, dear what will Mr. Kay say on his blog about you, sir?
> 
> 
> So sorry.


Having more bananas increases sex rank due to status.

Next up ... preselection.

Then there is always ovulation. Human females are harder to detect when they are ovulating unless you are paying attention. Determine the area under the curve of the exposed skin boundaries over a period of time. Very often women will dress in a way to attract more male attention during ovulation. 

And of course the stance that married women in a club may actually send out more sexual signs than their single counterparts. They may show more skin and be more free with their movements which may be a more seductive mating dance. Just a theory.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


> It once was believed that women suffered from hysteria.


Dude, we've all been _suffering_ from "Hysteria" since the summer of '87...

Def Leppard - Hysteria

LOL. Joking aside, great album.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> They are only metaphors. Alpha / Beta are just references to traits for ease of discussion. Though some either do not get it or do not want to get it.
> 
> You do not need studies to live your life. They may or may not validate your observations. Agendas come in all forms. Studies can be interesting data to augment observations and real life experiences.
> 
> It once was believed that women suffered from hysteria. One can have all the pertinent data and make all the wrong conclusions. Also true of observations. Not everyone is a critical thinker though. I learned that on the road less travelled.


I fully understand your point there Entropy, however, when I read posts by several TAMsperts attempting to throw in evolution and other terms, then I tend to question if they know any bit about what they're spouting off. I think you write with an eloquent style and again, can see what your interpretation is. I simply think that claiming a "science" like they do, shows that they really have no true grasp of Darwin, Watson & Crick or any other published person in the field (as I am) is talking about. Instead, they read a blog or an e-book and think they've got all the answers.

When the only answers they truly have are for themselves.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Male or female, I don't see how anyone can stay with someone who has committed physical infidelity. Every part of my being finds the concept abhorrent. If I had tried, I would have ate the end of my Glock.

Obviously there are people on this very thread that not only feel different, but have made a success of reconciliation. 

Be true to yourself. If *you* believe you can forgive it, you aren't being "beta".


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Dude, we've all been _suffering_ from "Hysteria" since the summer of '87...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaiaaar88EM
> 
> LOL. Joking aside, great album.


Nice. Oh yeah!!!

Pour Some Sugar On Me


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> I fully understand your point there Entropy, however, when I read posts by several TAMsperts attempting to throw in evolution and other terms, then I tend to question if they know any bit about what they're spouting off. I think you write with an eloquent style and again, can see what your interpretation is. I simply think that claiming a "science" like they do, shows that they really have no true grasp of Darwin, Watson & Crick or any other published person in the field (as I am) is talking about. Instead, they read a blog or an e-book and think they've got all the answers.
> 
> When the only answers they truly have are for themselves.


And please realize, ... I am often very tongue in cheek.  I am not even sure when that is though.

I take real studies and even bro-science for what they are. I try to compare it to my own experiences and file them away. I file it away because I may have to recall it as new experiences may show my previous views as being tunnel vision. It happens. I also find seemingly contraditory views as literally just different perspectives, no single view defines all aspects. But the aggregate may be more indicative of the "truth". So having a parallax view is not all bad.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


> Nice. Oh yeah!!!
> 
> Pour Some Sugar On Me


Yesss!!!

Def Leppard - Armageddon It


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Yesss!!!
> 
> Def Leppard - Armageddon It


Love Bites


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


> Love Bites


Ha! I knew it wouldn't be long...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Regret214 said:


> I fully understand your point there Entropy, however, when I read posts by several TAMsperts attempting to throw in evolution and other terms, then I tend to question if they know any bit about what they're spouting off. I think you write with an eloquent style and again, can see what your interpretation is. I simply think that claiming a "science" like they do, shows that they really have no true grasp of Darwin, Watson & Crick or any other published person in the field (as I am) is talking about. Instead, they read a blog or an e-book and think they've got all the answers.
> 
> When the only answers they truly have are for themselves.


I've mostly just being trying to inject a bit of levity into this thread but, honestly, I think that observing the goings-on of your typical middle school playground, high school gym class, or Friday night skating rink -- Are those even around anymore? -- pretty much anywhere in America (hell, maybe _anywhere_) would pretty much convince probably anyone of the validity of at least some of what NotForYou posted. 

Hell, it may as well have been Machiavelli posting that reply.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Ha! I knew it wouldn't be long...


Ok, so now I am off playing the whole Def Leppard catalogue.

But this song may actually be on topic for this thread.

Bringin On The Heartache. 

Or maybe ...

Still Loving You


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
> I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.
> ...


Love=Pain,

As you know you have too many threads, i.e., the pain is unending. I don't know your story but you once wrote:



> I am thinking it may be possible to go through life with someone you are not completely in love with, my WW and I get along very well (except for her cheating episode) the sex is great, we have 4 beautiful children and we have been together for a long time, so why not stay? Do I need to be fall over, head over heels in love to stay married? I do love her I would never want anything bad to ever happen to her (except if she cheats again then she can go rot) but* I don't love her like I used to and I really don't think I ever will.*


The underlined part is really key. Whether or not you feel beta or alpha doesn't matter that much, those are only adjectives which are relative.

Are you feeling progress to overcoming the degradation of your love for your wife. Do her words have meaning again or is the distrust still strong?

Are you having good sex post hysterical bonding?

As for punishment, what transpired for her? Were there no consequences?

Was divorce ever on the table?

Do you have an urge for a revenge affair?

Do you fantasize about casually handing your wife divorce papers, and enjoying the sight of her weeping at your feet?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Love, are you asking the question because you feel some dissatisfaction at where you are with R?

I read a couple of your threads, you mentioned the various betrayals, her saying if you can't get over it then you're done (She may have changed her tune since then but please fill us in on that)

Has she been remorseful since? Is she still working her butt off to fix this?

No, never Beta for staying and giving her a chance. But if she's regressed, clearly not putting in the work and relapsed into the old habits that got you both into so many Ddays and you're simply scared to pull the trigger now. 

Then yes.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> Do I need to be fall over, head over heels in love to stay married? I do love her I would never want anything bad to ever happen to her (except if she cheats again then she can go rot) but I don't love her like I used to and I really don't think I ever will.


LongWalk makes some good points about this quote of yours.

I have some further questions for you.

Do you definitely remember feeling "head over heels in love" just prior to her affair? Many people feel head over heels in love for their first couple years together but then settle into a kind of love that doesn't have quite that "crazy" feeling (the head over heels feeling) after that. It's still pretty wonderful, but definitely different than when it's more new.

Could it be that it's not the love you feel that's so different after her affair, but your ability to feel safe, to trust her? Because THAT is totally normal. They have to EARN back that trust, and it takes a long time.

Did you two spend time with a good MC that you both liked and who has experience in working with couples who are dealing with infidelity? If you didn't, it could be that you've got a lot of trauma that you haven't "worked through" yet. If you're thinking about the affair on a daily or near daily basis and not talking to your wife about it, then you're keeping it bottled up and that's not good - it's an intimacy killer - and it means there's more "work" to be done and the affair is still coming between you. You may get tired of bringing it up, and she may not spontaneously apologize because she thinks you don't want her to remind you of it, so regular counseling sessions are a good way to make sure this stuff gets dealt with.

Did you both read (and mainly, did she read) the book How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald? I read it and highlighted parts I especially wanted my husband to pay attention to. It's an excellent book - short, easy to read, and it helps unfaithful partners finally start to "get" what we're going through (most of them don't get it).

As LongWalk suggested, there may be some unfinished business that has nothing to do with alpha or beta crap. If you go on about your life without getting this stuff aired, and if she isn't encouraging you to express these thoughts and feelings whenever you are struggling with them, you will not heal.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Ripper said:


> Male or female, I don't see how anyone can stay with someone who has committed physical infidelity. Every part of my being finds the concept abhorrent. If I had tried, I would have ate the end of my Glock.
> 
> Obviously there are people on this very thread that not only feel different, but have made a success of reconciliation.
> 
> Be true to yourself. If *you* believe you can forgive it, you aren't being "beta".


I don't disagree with anything you said, Ripper. The reality is that in my mind, taking someone back that has been defiled by another is weakness. I understand that it requires a tremendous effort to reconcile but I still view it as weakness.

I believe that a woman needs love and to be cherished from her husband. A man needs to feel love and respect from his wife. In OPs case, the wife has not demonstrated either and in fact, disrespected him in the most emasculating way possible (by having an Affair).

I don't know all the reasons why someone would be Alpha or Beta but suffice it say that the main difference is probably self confidence. If you're feeling like you couldn't go on without your SO and make a decision to reconcile along those lines, then I could understand feeling very Beta. If you make a decision to reconcile for reasons other than your own insecurity about being able to survive without your W, then maybe it's a more Alpha action. Who knows. Say you do it to keep the family together or whatever other reason you may deem noble.

I'm not sure why a W would stray or why OP's W did that but it's easy to believe that the other man was more Alpha or desirable in some way. He possesses something in the WW's mind that her H didn't posses. If that weren't true, why do it.

If it were me, I would quickly initiate the divorce process and over the time it takes to become final, I would gauge the remorse and willingness of the WW to change and do the heavy lifting. If she seemed genuinely sorry and wanted another chance, I might likely date her again after the divorce and start over. 

The relationship would have to be built over again anyway so you may as well start it up from scratch. If you both fall in love with each other all over again, then you can always get remarried. Hopefully, I'll never need to put this into practice but it's what I would do, or at least what I'd like to believe that I would do.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

These are great questions. I"m going to answer them, pertaining to me, perhaps it might give some insight to the OP as to how his R is going compared.

I do get very annoyed at being called beta and weak by people that have divorced. I don't attack people for choosing divorce, because I can respect that people and situations are different. 



LongWalk said:


> The underlined part is really key. Whether or not you feel beta or alpha doesn't matter that much, those are only adjectives which are relative.
> 
> Are you feeling progress to overcoming the degradation of your love for your wife. Do her words have meaning again or is the distrust still strong?
> *Distrust is still strong, but not because of any actions or words from her, just because it's normal at this stage still one year out from dday. She tells me everything, dresses conservatively for work, got a new job, bought new clothes, thanks me constantly for letting her still be in my life and tells me sorry she hurt me if she notices something upsets me. Pay s constant attention to me, calls me at lunch and texts on breaks etc.. etc..*
> ...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

That was good, Russell.

Could a key watershed in R be that eventually your fWW will be able to defend herself in an argument about something unrelated to the affair and you will be able to accept that it is not betrayal, that conflict will occur without bringing your marriage to an existential crisis.

To be able to fight and make up would be part of a healthy R, preferably the making up would be in bed. Total surrender is part of compromise at times. But if your wife can't ever call you on your BS, then that's not a marriage either.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> That was good, Russell.
> 
> Could a key watershed in R be that eventually your fWW will be able to defend herself in an argument about something unrelated to the affair and you will be able to accept that it is not betrayal, that conflict will occur without bringing your marriage to an existential crisis.
> 
> To be able to fight and make up would be part of a healthy R, preferably the making up would be in bed. Total surrender is part of compromise at times. But if your wife can't ever call you on your BS, then that's not a marriage either.


I think at first the BS would be looking for any reason to get upset with the WS, and the WS would be looking to jump through hoops to keep the BS happy. Eventually that dynamic changes, and you can disagree and argue and make up. We've had a few times where we've had a problem, then talked through it, then had sex, yes. That's part of the healing and rebuilding of intimacy is sharing and honesty. Because they strayed and you were loyal doesn't give a license to be right in every argument for eternity. She can call me on my BS, and I can call myself on my own BS. If I know I'm wrong, I'm not afraid to say I'm sorry and explain what I was thinking, why I got upset, what happened so we can talk through it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

What about when a woman who is married to an alpha has an affair with a beta?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> What about when a woman who is married to an alpha has an affair with a beta?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes her an Upsilon.

love=pain, if you take beta to mean doormat, then someone who stays with a spouse who has been unfaithful is a beta only if the cheating continues and s/he continues to put up with it.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> Makes her an Upsilon.
> 
> love=pain, if you take beta to mean doormat, then someone who stays with a spouse who has been unfaithful is a beta only if the cheating continues and s/he continues to put up with it.


Yup.. if you continue to let a spouse abuse you, once you're aware you are being abused, you are (doormat | beta | girly man | sucker for punishment)

If you take action, you are (not a doormat | alpha/gamma/delta | manly man like cousin Arnold | in control of your own destiny)

In my case, my wife checked out of the marriage and was in a relationship with a person in work and didn't tell me about it. It was about her getting to close to another man, and distancing herself from me. The only alpha traits he had over me is I have respect for marriage and married women. That's beta, I should think women are just sex toys that should shut up and stay in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, that's alpha. I should sneak and lie and try to get a married woman into bed even though I have a girlfriend at home, that's alpha.. instead of getting a good job, building an amazing house in a great location, having beautiful children and always being there for them, being a loving caring father, beta... I make 5x the money the OM made, doing manual labor, alpha.. using your brain to make money, getting paid six figures to post on forums all day, because I have no work, beta.. My hands don't even get dirty. I can illustrate, can animate.. can sculpt.. can code.. can design and build things.. designer, ha, beta... he drives a minibus for old people at and old age home and listens to his scanner wishing he could have been a cop, alpha.. wanting to be a cop is super cool... I work from home, beta.. he has to drive to work in his truck.. alpha... I drive an import sports car.. beta.. he drives an american truck, super alpha.. He has a sugar momma and is divorced, alpha.. I don't have a previous marriage, beta.. He has scum tooth, that's alpha.. I have nice clean straight teeth, what a beta.. he has piles of alpha hair, I have a shaved beta head.. He's now living with his mom, after I filled in his girlfriend and she dumped him, living with mom is alpha.. I'm still in my large beautiful house with my wife and children trying to salvage my relationship that he helped my wife damage.. must be beta.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> What about when a woman who is married to an alpha has an affair with a beta?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I literally think I'm the only man on TAM that fears beta males. Everyone else is worried about alpha's with the golden ratio. I'm not saying I'm a chest thumping alpha, but I am very aware that I am not the most sensitive/romantic type. Also, I keep things bottled up and don't really share all of my feelings with my wife. I'm also lousy at empathizing at times. 

Because of this I feel threatened by men that are more in touch with their emotions than I am when they get close to my wife. I could try to open up more but whenever I do it just doesn't feel right. So I stop.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> What about when a woman who is married to an alpha has an affair with a beta?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This phenomenon proves that "alpha vs Beta" belongs in the category of "Philosophical Bullsh!t" rather than "Hard Science."

See also how people get really emotionally upset when discussing it.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

OP-

sounds like when you did post, you were having a horrible day or week. Have you talked to your wife and told her how you feel?

Is she doing the remorseful things to help you?

I do hope you find some happiness soon. Will she go to IC with you? 

If she is not moving heaven and earth for your marriage, why not?


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

For me it’s not about alpha or beta. I’m pretty much a beta guy in that I have the qualities women say they want in a marriage. 

When I was single I wanted to be the guy that women used like a piece of meat and tossed aside. Instead their parents loved me and they wanted to get married.

These qualities (i.e. stable, good companion, provider and father, etc.) become even more important to women as they age. Seeing your grandkids grow up as the two of you grow old together is important. 

I’ve been married 35 years and our kids have turned out great. If I found out that my wife had a PA at any point in our marriage I would get a divorce. 

This may be a poor way of expressing it but it would drive me crazy if I paid full price for sex and some other guy got it for free. That wouldn’t make him alpha and me beta, he just got a better deal.

While important to both men and women, sex tends to be more important for men while companionship and stability are more important for women. 

Her PA would mean that I spent my life giving her what is most important to her while she gave what is most important to me to another guy. Saying it was only sex would make matters even worse. 

It might be cutting off my nose to spite my face but I wouldn’t want her to have the reward of a faithful wife. I wouldn't want to hold her hand while we walked into the sunset.

I’m afraid this would be me:

99-year-old divorces wife after he discovered 1940s affair - Telegraph

*There is no right or wrong answer as far as R or D. You should do whatever makes you happy or the least unhappy.*


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
> I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.
> ...


Sounds like you're not getting over it. 

Do you lift weights? eat right? 

It sounds like right now, you have more of a problem with your perceived weakness to your own inaction than her cheating. 

I think this is a good thing. Be preoccupied with yourself, look behind the faceplate and examine the gears that make you tick. Figure out what it is you don't like and fix it. 

And IMO, you are free to leave her any time you like. You do not have to get over her cheating whether it's 5 years after or 10 years. Do what YOU want. Not what you think others want you to do.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
> I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.
> ...


A man does what he thinks is right and sees it through. You did that - don't belittle yourself. You reserve the right to reassess and if it is ever not working for you - you can leave. Staying or leaving means squat in terms of alpha, beta, omega - it is having the strength to do what you think is right despite the obstacles. Hang in there....


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Ha!
> 
> Alpha, Beta... Who cares, right? As long as you're not a Lambda (Lambda Lambda)...


But in the end, the Lambda got him some pie


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

Interesting thread.

Because I like to read, I got both of the books recommended to BHs on this web site, NMMNG and MMSP, and managed probably a total of 20 pages between the two books before I was bored to tears reading a bunch of BS, dime-store philosophy.

Does that make me an Alpha or a Beta? Because I really am dying to know which little corner of humanity you want to shoe-horn me into . . .


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm a beta also...just don't put me in a tank with another beta or we will kill each other!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

JustGrinding said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Because I like to read, I got both of the books recommended to BHs on this web site, NMMNG and MMSP, and managed probably a total of 20 pages between the two books before I was bored to tears reading a bunch of BS, dime-store philosophy.
> 
> Does that make me an Alpha or a Beta? Because I really am dying to know which little corner of humanity you want to shoe-horn me into . . .


Hey I'll shoe-horn my self and you can shoe-horn your self...then it really won't phucken matter cuz we will take care of our own @ss and not worry about the other guy!

Thats was kind of alpha:rofl:


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Love=Pain,
> 
> As you know you have too many threads, i.e., the pain is unending. I don't know your story but you once wrote:
> 
> ...


Well that answers that.

As for some of the other questions I will answer what I can remember from reading the threads.

Other than an issue about the size of the OM versus myself, physically I don't have too many issues. I may not be in the best of shape could lose a few but I can out work anyone(I work in a construction related field) I haven't found very much I can't lift move or do, so from a strength or manly side no worries.

I still believe I chose the harder path or at least I am trying to walk that path, both R or D have their good and their bad.

A divorce is still very much on the table, one thing I have learned is nothing is absolute or forever.

My wife has been faithful these last 2 years, unless she is having dreams about sex with someone else that would be as close as she could get. She does keep me well informed where she is although she doesn't have much leeway as far as schedule, anything off the schedule and either one of the kids is with her or I am.

She has done some good things in R and some not so good, a selfish person doesn't change quickly and she can fall back into that mentality easily. She is not a very sympathetic person, and as a BS she wants all this forgotten so when I have a trigger I don't always(rarely) get that shoulder to cry on so to speak.

I guess my thoughts about being a beta comes from my upbringing(the man is the head of the house, the rock which the family is built upon( don't you love religion) but also many of the other horrors that I have endured have taken a toll on the self esteem.

In some ways I still see my allowing her to stay and to have not punished the OM as a weakness(at least the caveman in me thinks so).

It has been a busy time the 2 year anniversary of some ddays those days always seem to hit me hard, that may very well be the cause of my issue right now, well that and a crushing work schedule.

We did talk about MC not covered with ins. so we decided no for now, as far as IC I asked her to go and she did 3 or 4 times but then stopped ( I asked her to go back but also told her it was part of her promise to me so I would not be asking again(hasn't went back so far) I continue to look for a time when I can go back to IC myself tough with my schedule but it was helpful when I went before, times like these is when it can really be useful.

I know I am doing the right thing for my family and probably my wife as a man I must be willing to put myself at the bottom of the list but if she falls down again I will blow it all up, my kids are all old enough to know what is going on I will not take responsibility for the downfall of our marriage.

Looking up I seem to have written a book time to go thanks for the ear.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Dude, we've all been _suffering_ from "Hysteria" since the summer of '87...
> 
> Def Leppard - Hysteria
> 
> LOL. Joking aside, great album.


1 month till I see them and kiss in concert. Can't wait. :smthumbup:


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> But in the end, the Lambda got him some pie


Ha! True. But hey, he was the "Alpha" Lambda.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

So Love=Pain, did you ever write about how you discovered the affair and what happened? 

Does your wife feel secure now? Does she feel that she saved her marriage?


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

In giving my opinion, I'm going to generalise and say that most women do prefer the "alpha" type to have their "fun" with and have them be, (unconsciously) the donor of the sperm to sire their children. 

However the "beta" is always going to be the fall back guy, because they are good and solid and reliable and they usually desperately love (or need) their wives and/or family. So utterly reliable and dependable it's a shoe-in.

The cheating wife (if she has a modicum of intelligence) ultimately knows that deep down the alpha is just a no-good fly by night, and hence the oftentimes snot and tears when faced with the uncomfortable, kick-in-the-arse reality of a divorce.


When the chips are down, she really doesn't want the loyal, good provider and the _actual_ father of her children to leave her stranded, because she knows deep down that the "alpha" will leave her high and dry as soon as the next sexual conquest appears on the horizon. So utterly unreliable and undependable that it's a shoe-in.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> In giving my opinion, I'm going to generalise and say that most women do prefer the "alpha" type to have their "fun" with and have them be, (unconsciously) the donor of the sperm to sire their children.
> 
> However the "beta" is always going to be the fall back guy, because they are good and solid and reliable and they usually desperately love (or need) their wives and/or family. So utterly reliable and dependable it's a shoe-in.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


If you think about it this makes sense. Before DNA women knew who their biological kids were and men didn’t.

Women wanted a stable good provider to increase the chance that their children would survive. The reason that she didn’t want her mate to fool around with another woman is that he might give the OW resources and thereby decrease the chance of her kid’s survival. The sex act itself with the OW wasn’t that important. Kids he had with the OW could starve.

Men wanted to use the fruits of their labor to ensure the survival of their own kids, not some OMs kids. That's why a faithful mate and the act of sex were important to men.

I read that wives are 7 times more likely to take back their cheating husband than the other way around. If you think about it this also makes sense. 

The WH is offering his resources to ensure the survival of his wife’s kids (she knows they are hers). 

The WW is asking her husband to support kids that may not be his given her record.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

double post. Sorry


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

Love=pain ......... so here you are, two years after D day and you are still questioning, wondering and probably worrying. Has it been worth it? And after 5 years, 15 years, 30 years will it have been worth it? You said that you took the high road, wanted to be a "man" about it. I would disagree, sorry. To me the "men" on this board are those that cut it, quick and decisive. Don't hear them coming back here asking and wondering if they should of done it differently! What would you do if the Dr. said you had Cancer? Would you start by eliminating something stupid from you life, say, Cheeseburgers. Wait a couple of years to see if that had any effect and when it didn't would you then decide to only smoke between 8:00 AM and Noon? Of course not, you'd want to get of the Cancer immediately!!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> What about when a woman who is married to an alpha has an affair with a beta?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





NotLikeYou said:


> This phenomenon proves that "alpha vs Beta" belongs in the category of "Philosophical Bullsh!t" rather than "Hard Science."


Sociology in all its forms will always be a "soft science." Biology, not so much.

Females with Alpha mates do in fact get it on with Beta males all the time. This doesn't cause too much distress to the alpha chimp, since he has a whole harem to console him, but over time the stress of staying on top takes its toll. Same for the human world, since purer Alphas don't really supply the stable elements of the relationship that women want. Alphas for sexual thrills, Betas for the shelter and protection of wifey and her Alpha kids. It happens every day.


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't believe Staying makes you a beta I think to burying your head in the sand and rug-sweeping the problems in the marriage away is what makes you a beta in my opinion.


If taking calculated risk and confidence are the hallmarks of an alpha then one could conclude that any BH choosing to stay are alpha in there thinking


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Yup.. if you continue to let a spouse abuse you, once you're aware you are being abused, you are (doormat | beta | girly man | sucker for punishment)
> 
> If you take action, you are (not a doormat | alpha/gamma/delta | manly man like cousin Arnold | in control of your own destiny)
> 
> In my case, my wife checked out of the marriage and was in a relationship with a person in work and didn't tell me about it. It was about her getting to close to another man, and distancing herself from me. The only alpha traits he had over me is I have respect for marriage and married women. That's beta,* I should think women are just sex toys that should shut up and stay in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, that's alpha. I should sneak and lie and try to get a married woman into bed even though I have a girlfriend at home, that's alpha.. * instead of getting a good job, building an amazing house in a great location, having beautiful children and always being there for them, being a loving caring father, beta... I make 5x the money the OM made, doing manual labor, alpha.. using your brain to make money, getting paid six figures to post on forums all day, because I have no work, beta.. My hands don't even get dirty. I can illustrate, can animate.. can sculpt.. can code.. can design and build things.. designer, ha, beta... he drives a minibus for old people at and old age home and listens to his scanner wishing he could have been a cop, alpha.. wanting to be a cop is super cool... I work from home, beta.. he has to drive to work in his truck.. alpha... I drive an import sports car.. beta.. he drives an american truck, super alpha.. He has a sugar momma and is divorced, alpha.. I don't have a previous marriage, beta.. He has scum tooth, that's alpha.. I have nice clean straight teeth, what a beta.. he has piles of alpha hair, I have a shaved beta head.. He's now living with his mom, after I filled in his girlfriend and she dumped him, living with mom is alpha.. I'm still in my large beautiful house with my wife and children trying to salvage my relationship that he helped my wife damage.. must be beta.


Sorry but that's being a jerk, not Alpha.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Strictly any married man is beta...
Actually any monogamist man is beta, as I read here and there.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

love=pain said:


> Title says it all.


Women are those who decide, by "voting" with their **, which men are _alpha, beta, delta, gamma, etc._ You can work towards getting a higher vote tally if you like, but they are the ones who decide. 

For a long term relationship, particularly marriage, you need to display a mix of alpha/beta. Monogamy itself is a Beta display and actually lowers a man's natural testosterone levels.



love=pain said:


> I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
> I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.


A huge percentage of guys who get cheated on display weakness in the beginning; even guys without kids, even guys who aren't even legally married, yet. How could it be otherwise, when you think you've selected someone who would not do this?

I have no problem with someone taking out the OM, but you've got to be willing to accept the consequences vs the satisfaction. It's no good to stay together for the kids if you're in the pen the whole time they're growing up.



love=pain said:


> So life goes on.
> 
> Once a Beta forever I guess.


If you're a guy who is sticking around to raise his kids right, you're a Beta. That's a good thing, depending on the quality of R.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> If you're a guy who is sticking around to raise his kids right, you're a Beta. That's a good thing, depending on the quality of R.


:iagree:

John Adams has the best quality R I can imagine.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Not at all. You are an alpha.
> The real beta? He who has to take the leavings of a married man, like an hyena.





Entropy3000 said:


> Ummmm. No. :rofl:


But hold on, Entropy....MattMatt's a decent guy.
He just gets into the whole 'I-support-the-Beta-underdog' thing a little _too _much.
e.g. he says saps like RDMU is a real Alpha and Bob (the OM who f*cks his wife and makes her do all sorts of BDSM stuff) is the real Beta.

 Sorry, MM. Nothing personal.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

lovelygirl said:


> Sorry but that's being a jerk, not Alpha.


But that's the guy my wife cheated with, so he has to be alpha.. that's what they must do.. they get all the womenz. Now go make me a sandwich.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

love=pain (like the name btw) I will address your question under the assumption that you want an honest answer "pure vulcan logic" as it where and not a "shoulder to cry on" type of response to make you feel better about your decision to reconcile. So if I am incorrect in that assumption please simply skip over my inane ramblings and ignore me.

As to my answer, I think it depends on who or better yet where you ask the question, for instance very few men that decided to stay with a wife that cheated on them are gonna come out and say "Yep i'm just a big ol' sissy for staying with her."
Having said that, I do believe a lot of people, even a suprisingly large amount of women tend to view betrayed men who stay as being weak or passive. I don't have any statistics off hand to back that as it is merely an observation I've made from my own life experiences and discussing the topic with others. 

Most people on this forum, being made up largely of betrayed spouses and former cheaters don't seem to feel that it makes themselves or their husbands "beta" or if they do they are not very likely to say that here, what with their spouse reading the screen behind them. 
However when the topic has come up in casual conversation in "real life", I have generally heard negative things said about guys who took back their cheating wives. Usually it pertains to an assumed sexual inadequacy or the man is casually referred to as a "chump" or other such hurtful suppositions are made about his "manhood" both figuratively and literally. 

Not knowing a whole lot about biology I can't really give you a physiological reason for why so many women seem to be attracted to "alpha/bad boy" types. You would have to PM Machiavelli for that. I personally think it at least partially a societal/environment issue and not completely genetic. For instance younger girls have traditionally obsessed over boys who could barely be descried as male at all let alone "alpha", just look at Justin Bieber. How do they explain that? 

I don't feel that it necessarily makes one less of a man to reconcile, in fact I would go so far to say that a man staying with a truly repentant wife could even be an example of GOD's mercy and love that is freely offered to all of us. I don't know what spiritual beliefs(if any) you hold but in the OT of the Bible GOD describes himself multiple times in the terms of a betrayed husband with an unfaithful bride(Israel), whom he longed to forgive and be reconciled with if she would only repent of her (spiritual)adultery and return to HIM. So there is at least in my view a righteous way of reconciling that is inspiring in it's mercy, humility and forgiveness. But it is most certainly not for everybody. And you do have every right legally, morally and even biblically to divorce her if you so decide. 

I won't whitewash the facts, from a purely societal point of view a man taking back his adulterous wife is largely considered to be undignified. As far as I know, it has always been that way and it's not likely to change any time soon. I guess what it comes down to is can a man still be happy/content with his wife and marriage knowing that others (family/friends/co-workers) may think less of him for taking her back? I suppose that is something that each individual must decide for himself. And it only adds another layer of how vile adultery truly is and what destruction it leaves in it's path. Whatever you decide I say good luck to you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

davecarter said:


> But hold on, Entropy....MattMatt's a decent guy.
> He just gets into the whole 'I-support-the-Beta-underdog' thing a little _too _much.
> e.g. he says saps like RDMU is a real Alpha and Bob (the OM who f*cks his wife and makes her do all sorts of BDSM stuff) is the real Beta.
> 
> Sorry, MM. Nothing personal.


I actually do not even look at this as Alpha versus Beta. A guy who has a large amount of both is a quality man. 

I am not so sure that a guy who becomes a doormat if we can be blunt is an extreme Beta either. He may have low values in both Alpha AND Beta. We think lack of Alpha because of the low self esteem. Check.
But Beta does not really infer weakness per se. It infers caring. 

Indeed a guy is overly Beta or should I say low in Alpha if he has no self esteem and does love his wife to his detriment. But I wonder if sometimes it is not even love at all. But just pure fear of being alone. That is not really Beta.

See while one can speak of balance which is important, I see it like hot and cold faucets. You can turn on both faucest to a trickle and have balance. But you can crank them both up as well and still have balance. There may need to be some adjusting depending on why you need water. Hotter to clean with. Colder to quench the thrist. But you can have a high Alpha and still be a loving and caring man. Alpha does not equal jerk. Beta does not equal wuss. But they can depending on the balance they may or may not have.

The more elaborate hierarchy that Mach shows is more complex than my simplistic view. My view infers that if a man is aware of the rules he can validate behavior that will benefit him. These at some level are just skilsets. If anything is is advice for a man to allow himeslf be the man he already is. To not be reprogrammed but those that fear him becoming that man. Many peoplke will like that man but it seems there are those that fear him. I think that is probably a good thing. That is their fear not his.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

All this alpha/beta blather sounds like something from a Tiger Beat survey.

So are other men supposed to be alphas or something? They sure run and hide from mad husbands. To me, the guy that is left standing is the man.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Ha!
> 
> Alpha, Beta... Who cares, right? As long as you're not a Lambda (Lambda Lambda)...


didn't you know? smart is the new sexy


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Forest said:


> All this alpha/beta blather sounds like something from a Tiger Beat survey.
> 
> So are other men supposed to be alphas or something? They sure run and hide from mad husbands. To me, the guy that is left standing is the man.


First off women cheat with Alphas, Betas and Jerkovs and everything in between for their own reasons.

Running off a predator after he has been having sex with your wife is essential but a tad late as well. The predator may have already gotten what he came for. No one said he was the better man. But he got the wifes vote. He was good enough to have the husbands wife risk all just to be with him sexually. To many guys that is the ultimte win. The wife values having sex with him more than she cares about her husband. He runs off to find another woman. In many circles being threatened by a jealous husband is considered a win. Great sport.

A quality man is not interested in winning a contest of being called the better man. He has to search inside himself for that. He is the only vote that matters. But he also needs to know that as a quality man there are many good women who could love him and be faithful to him. Having children complicates this. But it does not decide it alone. Why would he continue to invest with this woman? He is the only one who can answer this. he needs to do that from a sense of strength and not weakness.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

manticore said:


> didn't you know? smart is the new sexy


I actually think Leah Culver is hot in most part because she is a smart and confident woman. Otherwise not so much.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Entropy3000 said:


> I actually think Leah Culver is hot in most part because she is a smart abd cinfident woman.


Bet she has some quotes from Marissa Mayer tacked to her memo board. Or maybe on her mobile device, more likely.

I actually bought some Yahoo stock, just because of Mayer. (It sold off due to a trailing stop a little while back, though)


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Forest said:


> Bet she has some quotes from Marissa Mayer tacked to her memo board. Or maybe on her mobile device, more likely.
> 
> I actually bought some Yahoo stock, just because of Mayer. (It sold off due to a trailing stop a little while back, though)


No doubt.

For me just looking at her, she is not so extraordinary. However, it is women like these that potentially grab my interest. It is who they are as a person that can be be very sexy to me. Now she may be a complete turn off in person. But there is potentail here. A woman has to be comfortable with being a competent woman. Not playing a role like a man as some feel they must. There is no need for that at all.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> First off women cheat with Alphas, Betas and Jerkovs and everything in between for their own reasons.
> 
> Running off a predator after he has been having sex with your wife is essential but a tad late as well. The predator may have already gotten what he came for. No one said he was the better man. But he got the wifes vote. He was good enough to have the husbands wife risk all just to be with him sexually. To many guys that is the ultimte win. The wife values having sex with him more than she cares about her husband. He runs off to find another woman. In many circles being threatened by a jealous husband is considered a win. Great sport.
> 
> A quality man is not interested in winning a contest of being called the better man. He has to search inside himself for that. He is the only vote that matters. But he also needs to know that as a quality man there are many good women who could love him and be faithful to him. Having children complicates this. But it does not decide it alone. Why would he continue to invest with this woman? He is the only one who can answer this. he needs to do that from a sense of strength and not weakness.


I had a so-called 'friend' who did this last year. His idea of 'ultimate win' was to take my wife off the OM#1 she was seeing at the time....just because he (OM#1) was pretty Alpha.

After 7 weeks, OM#2 just dropped her azz like he was bored and his ego was already looking for the next 'hit'.


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## sandals (May 8, 2014)

If you're not happy with your life and your decisions, I believe you may be making yourself a beta... whatever negative qualities you believe that may reflect upon you. 

What will it take to make you feel complete? Note that I'm not asking what it will take to make you happy...we don't get to be happy all the time. But why don't you feel in charge of your life? And what steps can you take to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and feel that you are?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

russell28 said:


> But that's the guy my wife cheated with, so he has to be alpha.. that's what they must do.. they get all the womenz. Now go make me a sandwich.


Someone call a doctor to help russell remove his tongue from his cheek.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

kenmoore14217 said:


> Love=pain ......... so here you are, two years after D day and you are still questioning, wondering and probably worrying. Has it been worth it? And after 5 years, 15 years, 30 years will it have been worth it? You said that you took the high road, wanted to be a "man" about it. I would disagree, sorry. To me the "men" on this board are those that cut it, quick and decisive. Don't hear them coming back here asking and wondering if they should of done it differently! What would you do if the Dr. said you had Cancer? Would you start by eliminating something stupid from you life, say, Cheeseburgers. Wait a couple of years to see if that had any effect and when it didn't would you then decide to only smoke between 8:00 AM and Noon? Of course( not, you'd want to get of the Cancer immediately!!


I don't agree everyone is different, men that cut and run have no hope for their future so they move on(IMO), I stay because I have hope things will get better. It is a toss up some on this board speak about trying for many years and just leaving no longer being able to take it anymore, others have had success years later they are together and better than ever. If there ever was something worth the gamble, worth your time(even if it ends up being wasted) it is your marriage and family. I will say I could go on without my wife, I know the kids would make it I would make it but I do think we are stronger together, if that changes then I would leave what would be the point then your are wasting your time.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I have to admit...this thread title pisses me off....
> I get tired of everybody pigeon holing every body else into freakin categories that have no bearing on anything!
> 
> My husband chose to allow me to stay...my husband chose to love me in spite of my infidelity...my husband chose to be a compassionate, forgiving man. Who the hell cares if he was an alpha or a beta? He is my man!
> ...


Well that is a honest focused opinion, you hating this goes to prove your commitment to your husband, marriage and your R. From many of your threads I have read you have worked very hard to make sure Mr. Adams knows without a doubt that he is your "alpha" (for lack of a better term). Helping to rebuild a man's confidence(after infidelity) is a surefire way to get rid of those beta feelings. I try not to make general blanket statements about anyone I was asking a question about how I feel, not every man feels that way and not every woman would look at their man that way.



Nostromo said:


> love=pain (like the name btw) I will address your question under the assumption that you want an honest answer "pure vulcan logic" as it where and not a "shoulder to cry on" type of response to make you feel better about your decision to reconcile. So if I am incorrect in that assumption please simply skip over my inane ramblings and ignore me.
> 
> As to my answer, I think it depends on who or better yet where you ask the question, for instance very few men that decided to stay with a wife that cheated on them are gonna come out and say "Yep i'm just a big ol' sissy for staying with her."
> Having said that, I do believe a lot of people, even a suprisingly large amount of women tend to view betrayed men who stay as being weak or passive. I don't have any statistics off hand to back that as it is merely an observation I've made from my own life experiences and discussing the topic with others.
> ...


You know as I have read and reread many of these responses I do think my question was more of the in her eyes will I be viewed in that way. I don't think any of my friends that know our troubles view me as weak or at least they have never said it, and her parents I believe they are ecstatic that I have not filed for divorce so no real issues with the way anyone thinks about me, except with her.

The other thing I have thought about is this; is worrying whether staying after her infidelity a sign of weakness really more of a alpha trait, after all does a beta man really care about his strength or weakness in that way? 
Finally I truly believe a successful man has to have both of these traits, you must be able to adapt in order to survive no one way will work every time.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

sandals said:


> If you're not happy with your life and your decisions, I believe you may be making yourself a beta... whatever negative qualities you believe that may reflect upon you.
> 
> What will it take to make you feel complete? Note that I'm not asking what it will take to make you happy...we don't get to be happy all the time. But why don't you feel in charge of your life? And what steps can you take to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and feel that you are?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



No one is ever happy with all of their decisions, you base your decision of the information you have whether it is right or wrong is for another day.
As for feeling complete that may never happen no matter where I am, but I am in charge of my life, I can leave and be fine.

I am confident that I am the man in most areas for my family, I take care of everything, I pay for everything and when there is a problem or something needs to get done my family looks to me to take the lead, this infidelity issue is the only area where I am not so confident.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't think you believe she is remorseful and made amends. She may truly have done so, but you don't feel like the scales have been balanced yet. 

I guess you need to find a way to either let that go or work toward some goal that will balance those scales for you. It's kind of late to ask her to do much, is it not? I really don't know, but I think you've already done what you could to strike that balance. 

Now, I imagine it's on you? The more it bothers you and you show her, after you told her you accept what is, the more, "beta", you will look. I don't care for those terms either and am not an, "alpha".

However, solid boundaries that you stand for in almost all cases, are what can up your confidence. I don't think you need her to do as much as you need to do for yourself. Once you grow some, you will be able to make many decisions about this, "marriage", of yours. 

I put that in quotes because of what you write, not what I think. I am not here to judge, but to analeyes. hahaha

You need to get out there and find what you truly want. Then you will know what to do. I don't think this is over. I don't think it will be until you find out what you want out of life. 

Unfortunately, I think that includes separation. That's dangerous, though, since most women can more easily find a mate than most men.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think you believe she is remorseful and made amends. She may truly have done so, but you don't feel like the scales have been balanced yet.


This is the crux of the matter, it seems to me. The feeling that the WS and the OM (in this case) have "got away" with something and made the BS feel and look weak and foolish in the process.

If the WS is truly remorseful then they have in fact not got away with anything. They are paying. You can understand why Mrs. JA reacted to this thread with indignation, both at the implication that JA might have displayed weakness in not kicking her out and at the idea that she might have escaped consequences for her betrayal. She is paying for this every day in her own mind and heart, as the truly remorseful do. This does not make her BH a beta or whatever.

As far as the OM is concerned: Blow his life to bits if you want to.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think you believe she is remorseful and made amends. She may truly have done so, but you don't feel like the scales have been balanced yet.
> 
> I guess you need to find a way to either let that go or work toward some goal that will balance those scales for you. It's kind of late to ask her to do much, is it not? I really don't know, but I think you've already done what you could to strike that balance.
> 
> ...


You are correct with some of this, while she has told me how sorry she is she still believes there was some justification in her actions and to me this is not true remorse. 
So while I don't think she will ever cheat again, if she has 1 ounce of well I was right in what I did stuff it does make it hard to put my mind at ease.
Maybe I am looking for a more humble slobbering over me with gratitude type of thing and I know that is not the type of person she will ever be, but a little "god" worship goes a long way.
I also know that many of my issues stem from my own personal history which does make overcoming this harder. Getting my own personal house in order will help me find the direction i want to go in.

At this point it is either stay or go there is no trial separation that would make any sense and as I have said the positives for staying together out weigh the negatives right now.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

love=pain said:


> You are correct with some of this, while she has told me how sorry she is she still believes there was some justification in her actions and to me this is not true remorse.
> So while I don't think she will ever cheat again, if she has 1 ounce of well I was right in what I did stuff it does make it hard to put my mind at ease.
> 
> They all have that. If you believe anything else, you are mistaken. Sorry to those who have R'd. I don't mean you are not sorry, or have not done your work, or shown that you are loyal. The fact of the matter is, they had to justify it before they chose to do it. They really can't take that back. It's in the past and that can't change. They can feel bad about it, but it was right at the time. Just like you've stated here.
> ...


I didn't read that + > -...I read + = -... Sorry about that. Go back and look at your own writing.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

> Maybe I am looking for a more humble slobbering over me with gratitude type of thing and I know that is not the type of person she will ever be, but a little "god" worship goes a long way.


It is good that you know who she is. Otherwise how can you measure her remorse.

Does she ever look at you in a way that you feel that she just happy to see you? Happy that you have not left her?

In some way your question actually provides an answer. You have become stronger as person so that you don't feel second best and that confidence will hopefully make the right impression on her.

If you feel that she is patronizing you, you should divorce.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> They all have that. If you believe anything else, you are mistaken. Sorry to those who have R'd. I don't mean you are not sorry, or have not done your work, or shown that you are loyal. The fact of the matter is, they had to justify it before they chose to do it. They really can't take that back. It's in the past and that can't change. They can feel bad about it, but it was right at the time. Just like you've stated here.
> 
> I apologize to you ladies and gents who have worked hard. I don't mean to stir up trouble with you.


Yes and no, 2ntnuf. Yes, they/we had to justify any actions/words at the time, but I think love=pain is talking about CONTINUED justification after discovery and while in R. If one is still justifying, while R'ing, then it's not going to work. All of those justifications need to be dropped, completely. It's one thing to say "I did it...but I felt it was the right thing at the time... now I can honestly say that it was the wrong choice, and I am disgusted that I did that." And quite another to say "Yes, I did it, but I still feel you pushed me toward it because [insert excuse here]." I am guessing the latter is what love=pain is working with? And the former is what, I believe, most of us here feel.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

I don't think he should be defined as "Beta" if he decides to reconcile....
but THE WAY he handles R, the way he chooses to make the WS pay for all the wrongdoing, the way he is around her during R.....definitely shows if he's Beta or not.

One who doesn't go for HARD consequences is definitely Beta. 
One who is afraid to make WS go by his conditions is definitely Beta.
One who is afraid of WS's reaction during R is definitely Beta.

One is afraid of the worst truth regarding the affair an is not willing to know every single detail is definitely Beta.
So it's not about the reconciliation itself but it's HOW he deals with it that makes him Beta or not.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Yes and no, 2ntnuf. Yes, they/we had to justify any actions/words at the time, but I think love=pain is talking about CONTINUED justification after discovery and while in R. If one is still justifying, while R'ing, then it's not going to work. All of those justifications need to be dropped, completely.
> 
> Well, let's see.
> 
> ...


Not quite, as far as I can tell.

I think he just isn't getting his needs met. I mean, it reads like that to me. He doesn't seem happy. I think he needs to be happy. Seems like that isn't a possibility, to tell the truth. I get the impression she feels justified. I think that's pretty normal. I don't blame her. Something pushed her to do it. She had to make a decision based on something. I don't think it's fair for him to push her any more on this. I don't think that's healthy. Seems like it's just a matter of checking into some other possibilities. 

He may just need to go on a couple of fishing trips with the guys or something. Who knows? Maybe it's just a matter of being with his children for a while? Spending time alone with them, might just be the thing he needs? Who knows? Only he can know and I don't think he will until he makes some small changes first. 

He seems like he doesn't have much choice in what he can do. Seems like he feels trapped or something. Why don't we help him to find his happiness? Isn't that what is best for all involved? If he isn't happy, he will not be a great dad or husband. Can't believe I'm saying this stuff, actually. I do think, from what I've read, he is stuck.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The labels aren't the issue. Here at TAM, we seem to like to label things to understand them better. It's okay when it doesn't do harm. Sometimes we can't help but to hurt someone's feelings. I just think l=p doesn't have that problem, to tell the truth. I think it's more that he is finding a stumbling block in what he thinks he got when they got back together. I don't think she did anything really wrong since the R. I think things changed. He seems like he feels he is plan B. I don't think she wants him to feel that way. On the other hand, I don't think she feels anything but justified in her choices, and sorrow for hurting l=p. 

ETA: You know? I don't think it's even that he thinks he's plan B. I really think that was an overstatement. 

I think she has made amends as far as l=p has asked. I think she has done the work. Sometimes, that's not good enough. He has something that is bothering him about all of it and it will not go away. 

I don't think he even wants her to do anything. I would think women would understand this better than men.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Nostromo said:


> For instance younger girls have traditionally obsessed over boys who could barely be descried as male at all let alone "alpha", just look at Justin Bieber. How do they explain that?


He’s the most successful male closest to their age that they know of. The contrast between the success of the Beib and the average male at 16 years of age (when he hit stardom) is ginormous. The contrast between a successful businessman at the age of 35 and a 35-year old rockstar with issues is not quite as vast a gulf.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

As for the alpha/beta thing, like Entropy said, beta qualities are actually good. However, if that's all you have, then you're a typical "nice guy" and will get walked all over. Alpha = Powerful, Beta = Caring.

As for forgiveness, being forgiven is only seen as weakness by someone who is not truly sorry. They feel like they have gotten away with it, by deceiving the forgiving party into letting the act go. Chances are that they'll do it again, too. 

However, for someone who is truly repentant and who throws themselves on the mercy of the offended party, forgiveness is seen as powerful. The repentant party sees the strength needed to make such a decision and how the forgiving party effectively carries the burden of the offending party’s action in that moment. Because, when truly forgiving, you have to totally open yourself up to the pain the act has caused you and then find a way to let it go. True repentance is similar. You open yourself up to the pain you caused others. Either way, both people end up feeling one another’s pain, to a certain extent. That’s a whole lot of pain. But it's necessary for fully moving on together.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Nostromo said:


> For instance younger girls have traditionally obsessed over boys who could barely be descried as male at all let alone "alpha", just look at Justin Bieber. How do they explain that?


I don't think teen girls know any better than Justin Bieber.

I mean, within the range of guys at his age, he could be considered alpha.
He's confident, good-looking, successful, rich, famous...and so on.
So what does a teen girl want more from a man of HER age?

I'm not justifying Bieber, I'm just saying that within every group of a certain age, there's an alpha element that stands out when compared to rest of the group.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MSP said:


> However, for someone who is truly repentant and who throws themselves on the mercy of the offended party, forgiveness is seen as powerful. The repentant party sees the strength needed to make such a decision and how the forgiving party effectively carries the burden of the offending party’s action in that moment. Because, when truly forgiving, you have to totally open yourself up to the pain the act has caused you and then find a way to let it go. True repentance is similar. You open yourself up to the pain you caused others. Either way, both people end up feeling one another’s pain, to a certain extent. That’s a whole lot of pain. But it's necessary for fully moving on together.


That is a beautiful description, MSP. Thank you.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

OP, I love these alpha / beta discussions.

Here's my suggestion, as one who stayed for the kids, rebuilt a successful marriage, and continues to work on it's weaknesses.

Look into yourself. Find your strength, worth and purpose within your self. Don't try and find them in your wife. Once you truly get that, and reposition your wife within your life accordingly, a lot of stuff falls into place. Whatever greek letter you use to label it!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't think he can feel the same for her as he did. I think you are touching on the subject, Wazza. I think he needs to think about his options. Does he want to continue with the woman he knows will never be the one he fell in love with all those years ago? 

Maybe that's good enough for l=p? Maybe he needs more?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think he can feel the same for her as he did. I think you are touching on the subject, Wazza. I think he needs to think about his options. Does he want to continue with the woman he knows will never be the one he fell in love with all those years ago?
> 
> Maybe that's good enough for l=p? Maybe he needs more?


If he continues with his wife trying to pretend there was never infidelity, I think he will fail. 

If he decides to divorce, and then look for someone else who can fill that void, I think that is pretty risky too. It all depends on how realistic his expectations are.

Anyone you meet is imperfect. If you accept that, accept it is not your fault, and then set your expectations accordingly, things get better.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If he continues with his wife trying to pretend there was never infidelity, I think he will fail.
> 
> If he decides to divorce, and then look for someone else who can fill that void, I think that is pretty risky too. It all depends on how realistic his expectations are.
> 
> Anyone you meet is imperfect. If you accept that, accept it is not your fault, and then set your expectations accordingly, things get better.


That reads scary. At issue might be that he has to realize what his options would be. It might not be that easy to find a compatible woman. Of course, his wife seems to have proven she isn't compatible, but willing to work on it.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Gotta say I love the back and forth between 2ntnuf and wazza.

Lots to think about some great points, this thing called R sometimes it's like finding your way in the dark you just have to feel your way around when nothing is clear.

Thinking about everything I will say my wife has had flashes of greatness in the things she has done and said but she has also had some brain farts as well. Sort of like my golf game I can hit some beautiful shots which gets me pumped up and excited just wanting to play more and the next hole I want to burn my clubs, it can be very frustrating.

Mostly it has been the same as before(we do talk more) other than her cheating and maybe that is my issue, at times I feel so damaged by all of this and she can just go with the normal routine.
I am in the dog days of this R still dealing with anger, hurt and being unsure of myself and my marriage, 2 years is just the beginning when you are trying to reconcile the last 10 years of your life. 
I am going to start lifting with my youngest good for him to build some life habits and for some man time with Dad, if anything we will throw the weights around and tell fart jokes that should help.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

l=p, that's why I was doing that. It was a concerted effort to gently take two sides so you could see your choices more clearly. They are serious choices to make. 

I do think you need to get some perspective. Sometimes, that does mean a break away from the marriage. Sometimes, it just means a weekend away. 

No one can answer that, but you. I don't want you to throw away all that you have worked for, unless it truly is best for all of you. 

There are many ways to handle your life. I don't want you to make a huge mistake, if it can be avoided. You have to go into all of this with eyes wide open. 

yeah, the nice guy in me wants to help. I'm a sap as well as being f'd up.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't think so. Honestly I'm surprised this thread has reached 9 pages. I don't know why as I've only come to it like twice, but it should be obvious it depends on how the BS/BF handles it. I don't think alpha or beta matters much. I mean women have to deal with the exact same thing. 

I've seen guys who stay with their cheating wives and I'm just like "Dude, you handled that perfectly." On the flip side I've read threads where the BS leaves and I tell him "A+". I've also seen the reverse of both, some being more "alpha" and some being more "beta". I think it takes as much strength to stay with a cheating woman as to leave. Maybe more so since guys who leave seem to be able to move on or at least start dealing with it quicker (although that's just my opinion).


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Has your wife gained weight?

Does she make an effort to be attractive to you?

Does she initiate sex?

Does she cook meals you like?

If you cook, does she eat it with enjoyment?

Does she take refuge in watching television?


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Not sure if these are for me, I think so being I started this mess.



LongWalk said:


> Has your wife gained weight? In the beginning when I was working out every night to wear myself out just to get a couple of hours of shut eye she started working out with me so she lost some weight, then she gained some back and now has started to lose it again but she has never really gained more than 10 or so pounds. She is close to the weight she was when we were first married.
> 
> Does she make an effort to be attractive to you?
> Well yeah but she also is very vain been through close to 100 hair dressers(I am serious no exaggeration) since we have been married(to make my point) so she always works hard to look attractive whether it is just for me probably not mostly it is for her.
> ...


I will have to ask what these questions have to do with the topic at hand, not really sure, except to see if we have a stable domestic life which I think we do.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

love=pain said:


> *Does staying with a cheating woman forever make a man a Beta?*


Yes. It's part of accepting R. Alpha's don't take back cheating wives, they replace them.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Yes. It's part of accepting R. Alpha's don't take back cheating wives, they replace them.


You know what else is beta, feeling the need to justify your choices by calling other people beta and yourself alpha.. needing to convince yourself that replacing your cheating wife makes you somehow more of a man than someone that chooses a different path. Sounds like you're insecure, you should read the 'macho mans guide to epeen' and another good read is 'how to lift weights to prevent alphas from stealing your womenz' by charley atlas. 

Sounds like someone is over compensating... You should get IC, or at least buy a Harley and a giant truck with dual wheels and an extra cab.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BetrayedDad said:


> Yes. It's part of accepting R. Alpha's don't take back cheating wives, they replace them.


Unless they're alpha enough to not need to prove a point and choose to R because it's what they want.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Alphas don't even use computers, they think the mouse is a foot pedal and they just smash the keyboard with a closed fist. They sure wouldn't post on an Interweb message forumz that has pink as the theme color.. A true alpha would print out the page and try to color it with crayons.

Edit: Correction, I just realized an alpha would never use crayons, they would use permanent markers, and would probably just write in the 'quick reply' right on the monitor. So we'll never actually see a real alpha in this forum.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Dang, I've been coloring the monitor. stomps off...


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Dang, I've been coloring the monitor. stomps off...


Stomping off is not cool, your wife will pick up on that and probably won't want to have sex with you. You want to strut away, or ride off into the sunset on a stallion..


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

hahaha


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

.....what are these 'color monitors' of which you all speak? Since when is black & white not state of the art? 

.....guess I'm beta?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

That's why I use the crayons. I like the big ones. They don't break as easily.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Dig eats the kids' crayons.

Just not the black ones. I think that makes him less alpha and almost racist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Yes. It's part of accepting R. Alpha's don't take back cheating wives, they replace them.



LMAO!!!!!!! This is one of those moments where any woman has that inner chuckle and gives out a fake number.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Keep him away from the paste. hahaha


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Keep him away from the paste. hahaha


I only learned of the crayons shortly after Dday. He never confessed to paste. I wonder if i should VAR the living room and play area.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Does staying with a cheating woman forever make a man a Beta*



2ntnuf said:


> Keep him away from the paste. hahaha


Paste ....its the other "white stuff".


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

that's alpah, right there...oops alpha


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## Singledude21 (Feb 21, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Alphas don't even use computers,


Yea they do, Bodybuildingfourms being the most infamous site. It's 2014, everybody use the internet at this point. Got to admit, they have me cracking up over there at times, but they make it clear they don't do cheating.

Pages and Pages of Sloot testimonies.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sloot+bodybuilding+forum+site:forum.bodybuilding.com&biw=1920&bih=871#q=cheating+sloot+bodybuilding+forum+site:forum.bodybuilding.com


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

turnera said:


> Unless they're alpha enough to not need to prove a point and choose to R because it's what they want.


:iagree:

Yes, the above

Now, for me, and only speaking for me, I would have felt like a beta if I had stayed with my x-wife. I suppose that is because I will never choose to reconcile with someone that has cheated on me.

However, if I do choose reconciliation, whether or not I feel like a beta is how R turns out for me. If I take a cheating partner back and I lay down the law as to what I expect and the cheating partner agrees and we can work on things from there, then I wouldn't feel beta.

If she is still in control and I feel like I have no say in her activities, whereabouts, then I'd feel beta. Then again, if that were the case, I wouldn't continue R.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You brought up something that's been bothering me about all this talk.

You wrote: "If she is still in control and I feel like I have no say in her activities, whereabouts, then I'd feel beta."

There's a really fine line there. It's control. At what point does having a say in where a partner goes and what he/she does become controlling?

I think, and maybe it's just choice of words, we can have influence, but no real say in where our spouse goes. What say you? 

Hope you don't take this as harsh criticism. I've seen things like this before and wondered if I was misunderstanding something.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> You brought up something that's been bothering me about all this talk.
> 
> You wrote: "If she is still in control and I feel like I have no say in her activities, whereabouts, then I'd feel beta."
> 
> There's a really fine line there. It's control. At what point does having a say in where a partner goes and what he/she does become controlling?


There is a fine line. I wouldn't throw down an ultimatum, I wouldn't tell her she is not to do anything.

I would tell her what I do not feel is respecting me and that which makes me uncomfortable. If she respects me and wants our relationship to work, she'll take it upon herself to refrain.

And if she doesn't want to refrain, she doesn't respect me or the relationship in the first place, much less love me.



> I think, and maybe it's just choice of words, we can have influence, but no real say in where our spouse goes. What say you?


I agree.

I can convey my concerns. If she doesn't care enough to stop herself from doing things that aren't fit of a married woman who was caught cheating, then the relationship will deteriorate from there.



> Hope you don't take this as harsh criticism.


Not at all. No worries


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Alpha for me is an animal term. So if the alpha of the pack has a woman that sneaks off and sleeps with some sleazy thing on the side, does that mean the alpha forever becomes beta? 

If the alpha continued to let that behavior happen once he was aware of it, yes he would be a beta. If the alpha knew she was cheating and rather than putting a stop to it he waited for the "right moment," yes, he was a beta. If the alpha stopped it immediately, laid down his terms, and took his woman back, he is still alpha. 

The most alpha animal in existence would no doubt take his woman back and make her his again. And if the sleazy thing on the side was alpha enough he would try to take that woman for himself. If he never liked her to begin with, it doesn't matter anyway. An alpha takes what is his. You can't control what she did behind your back, but as soon as you found out, you took your woman back. Because that is what alpha's do. Then after you have her back, the alpha in you questions that maybe you should have left her. Why? Because now you have her and it's what alphas do. 

Hopefully she is taking care of you, giving you the intimacy and time you need, and if she ever slacks again, kick her to the curb because you don't want her anymore not because she cheated.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No, I think the alpha doesn't care. Pure alpha would not care who his mate is sleeping with as long as he gets his when and how he wants. He also goes and gets his outside of home when and where he wants and doesn't care who it's with, as long as she meets his criteria. He basically doe as he pleases and lets the chips fall where they may. Just my opinion, though.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Coldie said:


> 1 - Alpha for me is an animal term. So if the alpha of the pack has a woman that sneaks off and sleeps with some sleazy thing on the side, does that mean the alpha forever becomes beta?
> 
> 2 - If the alpha continued to let that behavior happen once he was aware of it, yes he would be a beta. If the alpha knew she was cheating and rather than putting a stop to it he waited for the "right moment," yes, he was a beta. If the alpha stopped it immediately, laid down his terms, and took his woman back, he is still alpha.
> 
> 3 - The most alpha animal in existence would no doubt take his woman back and make her his again. And if the sleazy thing on the side was alpha enough he would try to take that woman for himself. If he never liked her to begin with, it doesn't matter anyway. An alpha takes what is his. You can't control what she did behind your back, but as soon as you found out, you took your woman back. Because that is what alpha's do. Then after you have her back, the alpha in you questions that maybe you should have left her. Why? Because now you have her and it's what alphas do.


1 - No. Because as 'Alpha' as a man is, he cannot control everything (as you've said). he could take care of all his woman's needs and she still might sneak off.

2 - Yes. Once any man, of any 'sexual-ranking' discovers his woman is seeing someone else for sex and allows it happen, he's then technically a 'cuckold'.
People need to understand that a cuckold in today's society is one borne of the Internet-phenomenon (which is seemingly growing), that is, he either accepts or is turned-on by his wife having sex with another man (usually a 'Bull' or a 'Dom', use whatever term you like)
Cuckold of years ago was just a guy whose wife was cheating.
I put myself through that for a few months because I thought, stupidly, she would come to her senses and the situation with her OM would blow itself out.

3 - Agreed.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> No, I think the alpha doesn't care. Pure alpha would not care who his mate is sleeping with as long as he gets his when and how he wants. He also goes and gets his outside of home when and where he wants and doesn't care who it's with, as long as she meets his criteria. He basically doe as he pleases and lets the chips fall where they may. Just my opinion, though.


That's not an alpha, what you are describing is a playa.. 

Alphas eat rusty nails, and wipe their butts with sandpaper.. That guy from Game of Thrones, the Mountain.. he's alpha. Everyone else is beta.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

davecarter said:


> 1 - No. Because as 'Alpha' as a man is, he cannot control everything (as you've said). he could take care of all his woman's needs and she still might sneak off.


Right here. This is extremely important for every betrayed man on this site to read.

Dig was and still is one of the most "alpha" (I just don't like that term still) guys I've ever met. Captain of private jets for a decade and rides with an international motorcycle club and now getting ready to attend police academy.

My affair had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with his "ranking" or whatever. It had to do with me fulfilling a selfish and egotistical broken part of me.

Dig made a lot of money. He gave me everything I ever wanted. I took advantage of him during that time regardless of how incredible he was to me. In short - I was an a-hole.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> Right here. This is extremely important for every betrayed man on this site to read.
> 
> Dig was and still is one of the most "alpha" (I just don't like that term still) guys I've ever met. Captain of private jets for a decade and rides with an international motorcycle club and now getting ready to attend police academy.
> 
> ...


Obviously not alpha enough for you. "gave me everything I ever wanted" is not being alpha.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

russell28 said:


> That's not an alpha, what you are describing is a playa..
> 
> Alphas eat rusty nails, and wipe their butts with sandpaper.. That guy from Game of Thrones, the Mountain.. he's alpha. Everyone else is beta.


Is that like pong or galaga? I have no clue. 

Anyway, I get the impression that pure alpha is a player. What most here like to say is alpha, is actually an alpha-beta mix in the right quantities. 

I guess I'm disagreeing with the way the term Alpha is used around these here parts, pilgrim. reference to John Wayne there. 

I do agree. What I wrote, reads player. I also think pure alpha is player.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

aug said:


> Obviously not alpha enough for you. "gave me everything I ever wanted" is not being alpha.


True, apha's never provide for a family, they eat families.. 

Alphas don't give people things, they take things from people..

Alphas aren't nice,they wouldn't want to give you anything you want or need, they just want to have sex with you and give you babies then grunt and move onto the next mate. 

Alphas play mind games and pretend to be tough because that's what it told them in that book they read.. so they're protected against infidelity by an invisible force field of alphaness and what they learned in the book they read.

Alpha means you know how to read and follow the advice of some other guy on how to act like a man.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

aug said:


> Obviously not alpha enough for you. "gave me everything I ever wanted" is not being alpha.


I would think given your longevity that you would know our story. You pick one comment out of all of the others in an attempt to prove your point. My affair does not in fit your guys' little alpha hierarchy theory of cheating. My husband is everything "alpha" that you people talk about and is why I agreed 100% with what davecarter wrote. Please, don't take one small portion of what I wrote that he provided for us as a feeble attempt at an argument.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> I would think given your longevity that you would know our story. You pick one comment out of all of the others in an attempt to prove your point. My affair does not in fit your guys' little alpha hierarchy theory of cheating. My husband is everything "alpha" that you people talk about and is why I agreed 100% with what davecarter wrote. Please, don't take one small portion of what I wrote that he provided for us as a feeble attempt at an argument.


If your husband is so alpha, why is he letting you post on the Internet? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen making him a sandwich?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Look, here's the deal... Choosing to reconcile w/ a wayward wife (or, ideally, a _formerly_ wayward wife) does not necessarily make a BH a "beta". What it *does* mean is that said BH is (at least) *just beta enough* to suppress the innate alpha urge to kick her to the curb and cut his losses. 

And yes, we all have that urge. It's natural. It's also natural for a BH that has chosen to reconcile to long for said urge to be sated. But, having chosen reconciliation, the best that a BH can realistically hope for is a devout observation of newly-established boundaries, the willingness to "suffer consequences", etc. This should not, by the way, entail constantly reminding a WW/FWW of her past transgressions, as this will only hamper the healing process for both and, ultimately, give rise to absolute resentment. When this happens, you might as well have divorced, because you're in a false reconciliation -- _and it's on *you*_.

Now... Whether or not you're choosing to reconcile for the _right_ reasons...? Well, only you can know that.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Look, here's the deal... Choosing to reconcile w/ a wayward wife (or, ideally, a _formerly_ wayward wife) does not necessarily make a BH a "beta". What it *does* mean is that said BH is (at least) *just beta enough* to suppress the innate alpha urge to kick her to the curb and cut his losses.
> 
> And yes, we all have that urge. It's natural. It's also natural for a BH that has chosen to reconcile to long for said urge to be sated. But, having chosen reconciliation, the best that a BH can realistically hope for is a devout observation of newly-established boundaries, the willingness to "suffer consequences", etc. This should not, by the way, entail constantly reminding a WW/FWW of her past transgressions, as this will only hamper the healing process for both and, ultimately, give rise to absolute resentment. When this happens, you might as well have divorced, because you're in a false reconciliation -- _and it's on *you*_.
> 
> Now... Whether or not you're choosing to reconcile for the _right_ reasons...? Well, only you can know that.


Basically the alpha is intelligent enough and strong enough to not react out of primal urges that date back to cavemen times. He's able to now use his brain as well as his muscles to take control of the situation once he's aware of the situation. A new breed.. a thinking alpha.. I'll call it, gamma after the Hulk. I just created a new term.. that's what alpha's do, we make stuff happen.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

russell28 said:


> If your husband is so alpha, why is he letting you post on the Internet? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen making him a sandwich?


LMAO! I am at work where I will be until next Friday as my last day for summer vacation. However, I *did* make him a sammich before I left for work while he slept off last night's session  Pure alfalfa.



GusPolinski said:


> Look, here's the deal... Choosing to reconcile w/ a wayward wife (or, ideally, a _formerly_ wayward wife) does not necessarily make a BH a "beta". What it *does* mean is that said BH is (at least) *just beta enough* to suppress the innate alpha urge to kick her to the curb and cut his losses.
> 
> And yes, we all have that urge. It's natural. It's also natural for a BH that has chosen to reconcile to long for said urge to be sated. But, having chosen reconciliation, the best that a BH can realistically hope for is a devout observation of newly-established boundaries, the willingness to "suffer consequences", etc. This should not, by the way, entail constantly reminding a WW/FWW of her past transgressions, as this will only hamper the healing process for both and, ultimately, give rise to absolute resentment. When this happens, you might as well have divorced, because you're in a false reconciliation -- _and it's on *you*_.
> 
> Now... Whether or not you're choosing to reconcile for the _right_ reasons...? Well, only you can know that.


I think this is a great commentary for the OP. I think it's something that he needs to read a couple times. I will tell you this: I joined TAM a month after Dday. Dig was at Brand X. He stayed there until July 2012 when he joined here to give his side of the story so everyone could be informed of US, not just me.

I remember one day, totally out of the blue, he came up to me and asked if during my affair that he wasn't "alpha enough". In talking to him, he read a thread here about the subject and needed to know if it applied to him. He questioned if he was "man enough". Questioned if he was too much of a "nice guy".

I reminded him that my affair had nothing to do with him. It had nothing to do with how "alpha" he was and still is. It had to do with one simple and pure fact: I...*I* was broken. It bore no consequence on him.


Edited to state that anything Tolkien, both Dig and I are fans of. A most excellent choice of lyric.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

russell28 said:


> If your husband is so alpha, why is he letting you post on the Internet? Shouldn't you be in the kitchen making him a sandwich?


Pure alpha doesn't need to have anyone make a sandwich for him. That's beta.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Alfalfa and Brussel sprouts. I just can't stop seeing that in all of this stuff!! 

Maybe I need some roughage.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Regret214 said:


> Alfalfa and Brussel sprouts. I just can't stop seeing that in all of this stuff!!
> 
> Maybe I need some roughage.


I know you're teasing, but I just don't get the references. I keep thinking he's gonna have a hell of a stomach ache from gas.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Pure alpha doesn't need to have anyone make a sandwich for him. That's beta.


Pure alpha don't even know how to make a sandwich, they eat raw meat that they killed themselves with one bare hand. Alphas always have women make them sandwiches, they make them do it naked and barefoot and then feed it to them while having sex.

There is nothing more alpha than alfalfa..

Edit: Brussel Sprouts, kinda beta...


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I know you're teasing, but I just don't get the references. I keep thinking he's gonna have a hell of a stomach ache from gas.


I purposely kept out asparagus as I have *that* gene...:rofl:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Pure alpha don't even know how to make a sandwich, they eat raw meat that they killed themselves with one bare hand. Alphas always have women make them sandwiches, they make them do it naked and barefoot and then feed it to them while having sex.
> 
> There is nothing more alpha than alfalfa..
> 
> Edit: Brussel Sprouts, kinda beta...


Foods can be beta? 

I guess we are coming from different places. I don't think a pure alpha would be concerned with anyone making food for him/her. He/she knows they can do it for themselves and will not care one bit whether someone makes it for them or not. They won't let you know what they want. Why would they want to let someone else have any control over what they eat or how it's prepared? That's beta.

I truly don't know if you're teasing me or what?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Regret214 said:


> I purposely kept out asparagus as I have *that* gene...:rofl:


I hear beano helps.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I truly don't know if you're teasing me or what?


I could be totally wrong, but if you read a lot of what Russel has said in this thread, you can read his extreme version of sarcasm. I like that. I think it's good when humor is interjected into the usual overwhelming issues we deal with here.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Regret214 said:


> I could be totally wrong, but if you read a lot of what Russel has said in this thread, you can read his extreme version of sarcasm. I like that. I think it's good when humor is interjected into the usual overwhelming issues we deal with here.


Well, I'm not mad at Russell. It would do me no good. I actually have, "liked", lots of his posts. 

Sarcasm is really tricky to write. That's why I was asking. I wasn't sure if that's what he was attempting.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Reading sarcasm on the internet is akin to being deaf and listening to music at times.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Foods can be beta?
> 
> I guess we are coming from different places. I don't think a pure alpha would be concerned with anyone making food for him/her. He/she knows they can do it for themselves and will not care one bit whether someone makes it for them or not. They won't let you know what they want. Why would they want to let someone else have any control over what they eat or how it's prepared? That's beta.
> 
> I truly don't know if you're teasing me or what?


Not knowing if I'm teasing you is beta. 

Of course food can be alpha or beta... bacon is alpha, quiche is beta.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Reading sarcasm on the internet is akin to being deaf and listening to music at times.


Am I that subtle? The killing raw meat with one bare hand, not enough? Next time I'll try to sarcasm harder. 

The whole alpha beta thing applied with such a broad brush amuses me.. as if an alpha can't make food for a family, or buy it.. or have someone do them a favor and cook them a meal, or a list of other options.. family cooks some food, sister makes cookies and you eat them. None of these things make you beta.

I'm sarcastic, it's my nature.. I can't help it.. I understand the issue with text and sarcasm, so I try to use enough winky faces to get the point across, but at times, I like to leave them out to keep the betas guessing.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

A true alpha only eats meat, fruits and veggies that's for the children and women folk and rabbits


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I only read the first page of the thread, but don't get down on yourself, lp. There is nothing cowardly about taking back your wife if she is sorry. Takes a lot more courage than dumping her and getting a new one.

When there is cheating, there are undoubtedly problems on both sides of the marriage. Having the courage to tackle these problems and resolve them shows character. You and anyone else who is pro-actively doing this should feel proud.

Don't worry about what other people think, and about Greek letters.  What you really want is to be a good man, a good human being. That takes strength and compassion. 

I have great respect for men who, when speaking of their wayward wives, admit that they, too, were imperfect. I have the most respect for the ones who do not blame their wives, but look to correct their own weaknesses. Some may even ask their wives for forgiveness for not being the husbands they wish they had been. 

That humility, to me, is a sign of a great man.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

love=pain said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> I have been thinking I should have at least kicked her out for awhile when this all started, now well what is the point it's been 2 years.
> I displayed weakness from the beginning, yeah yeah I was the big man who told her if it ever happened again she would be out. The stud who did what was better for my children, I didn't beat the crap out of the OM, I laid down some rules, boundaries the things I said I needed to stay married to her.
> ...


It's not Beta to attempt R after your wife cheats. That's a personal choice. So you made some mistakes in the beginning. So did I.

Beta would be begging your wife to choose you. Beta would be trying to nice her back. Beta would be rugsweeping the A. Beta would be giving her a third chance.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> I only read the first page of the thread, but don't get down on yourself, lp. There is nothing cowardly about taking back your wife if she is sorry. Takes a lot more courage than dumping her and getting a new one.
> 
> When there is cheating, there are undoubtedly problems on both sides of the marriage. Having the courage to tackle these problems and resolve them shows character. You and anyone else who is pro-actively doing this should feel proud.
> 
> ...



Well thanks for the kind words and while I am not a perfect husband I am a good husband and father, everyone who knows me knows how much I have done for my wife and the pedestal she was on(still is in many ways)

However her cheating is completely on her,* it was her choice not her mistake her choice*, no matter my faults I did not deserve to be treated this way, our marriage, our children and me all deserved better. She knows that and while the process can be slow at times we try to move forward.



badmemory said:


> It's not Beta to attempt R after your wife cheats. That's a personal choice. So you made some mistakes in the beginning. So did I.
> 
> Beta would be begging your wife to choose you. Beta would be trying to nice her back. Beta would be rugsweeping the A. Beta would be giving her a third chance.


It is not for everyone some days not sure it is for me, but I have never begged her to stay, never overly nice so she would stay, I have not been rude or cruel but honest and hard when it calls for it. Yep there are no third chances once is more than enough.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Regret214 said:


> I would think given your longevity that you would know our story. You pick one comment out of all of the others in an attempt to prove your point. My affair does not in fit your guys' little alpha hierarchy theory of cheating. My husband is everything "alpha" that you people talk about and is why I agreed 100% with what davecarter wrote. Please, don't take one small portion of what I wrote that he provided for us as a feeble attempt at an argument.


I see this is a sensistive point for you...


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

jld said:


> I have the most respect for the ones who do not blame their wives, but look to correct their own weaknesses. Some may even ask their wives for forgiveness for not being the husbands they wish they had been.
> 
> That humility, to me, is a sign of a great man.


I'm hoping this was phrased incorrectly. You should blame the WS, self analyze, and NEVER ask for forgiveness for someone elses transgression. 

Otherwise, it's bananas.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Philat said:


> This is the crux of the matter, it seems to me. The feeling that the WS and the OM (in this case) have "got away" with something and made the BS feel and look weak and foolish in the process.


Agreed!

Speaking for myself, I find nothing alpha about a man who divorces his cheating wife because he's afraid of what his buddies might say about his manhood.

Of course it is possible that some of those buddies are so alpha themselves that they cannot wait for the WS to be divorced so that they can make a play for them.

Enough sarcasm. I personally do not like the alpha/beta categorization. I think that male personalities are far to complex for such simplicity.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Not knowing if I'm teasing you is beta.
> 
> Of course food can be alpha or beta... bacon is alpha, quiche is beta.


No NO! Good quiche is heaven food, only allowed to pure civilized alphas. A civilized alpha is one that does not eat meat torn raw from a carcass but instead has it expertly prepared, spiced, cooked, and served with a fine wine.

And he also knows that there is more to sex than making grunting noises.  <---- do I need this?


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Am I that subtle? The killing raw meat with one bare hand, not enough? Next time I'll try to sarcasm harder.
> 
> The whole alpha beta thing applied with such a broad brush amuses me.. as if an alpha can't make food for a family, or buy it.. or have someone do them a favor and cook them a meal, or a list of other options.. family cooks some food, sister makes cookies and you eat them. None of these things make you beta.
> 
> I'm sarcastic, it's my nature.. I can't help it.. I understand the issue with text and sarcasm, so I try to use enough winky faces to get the point across, but at times, I like to leave them out to keep the betas guessing.


I swear I did my post (above) before reading this. Seems that our brains are similarly rotted.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Not understanding sarcasm when it's written, is beta.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

awake1 said:


> I'm hoping this was phrased incorrectly. You should blame the WS, self analyze, and NEVER ask for forgiveness for someone elses transgression.
> 
> Otherwise, it's bananas.


You're not asking forgiveness for her cheating; that's on her. You're asking forgiveness for not being the husband you wish you had been, or she wishes you had been, before she was cheating. And it is easier to release her that way, too.

But beware: If you show this kind of maturity, she will never forget it, and will likely beg to come back at some point. Because this kind of humility sets you apart from 99% of men.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> You're not asking forgiveness for her cheating; that's on her. You're asking forgiveness for not being the husband you wish you had been, or she wishes you had been, before she was cheating. And it is easier to release her that way, too.
> 
> But beware: If you show this kind of maturity, she will never forget it, and will likely beg to come back at some point. Because this kind of humility sets you apart from 99% of men.


JLD, forgive me but it is so clear you have never had to deal with an unfaithful spouse. I challenge you to offer examples that support your view. Because I can't think if a single one.


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## johny1989 (May 21, 2014)

> Not at all. You are an alpha.
> 
> The real beta? He who has to take the leavings of a married man, like an hyena.



Umm Nah... :lol: :lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hyena's do tend to like eating their way in through the *ss****e.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

awake1 said:


> I'm hoping this was phrased incorrectly. You should blame the WS, self analyze, and NEVER ask for forgiveness for someone elses transgression.


Nope, she phrase it wrong. She really believes it's always the guy's fault and for him to figure out how to fix the marriage.



awake1 said:


> Otherwise, it's bananas.


She's been told as much many times.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

jld said:


> But beware: If you show this kind of maturity, she will never forget it, and will likely beg to come back at some point.


Oh, and for those not familiar with JLD, she is an expert in the back handed insult. 

For you see, if you dump a woman who cheats on you, you're not a secure man, you're _immature_.



jld said:


> Because this kind of humility sets you apart from 99% of men.


Go ahead and feel that way. The other 99% of us will sit over here and feel proud that we're not in the wimpiest 1% of men.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Oh, and for those not familiar with JLD, she is an expert in the back handed insult.
> 
> For you see, if you dump a woman who cheats on you, you're not a secure man, you're _immature_.
> 
> ...


My perspective comes from having reconciled, and also who can accept responsibility for my share in problems that made my wife more vulnerable to cheating.

During the affair, she was in a headspace where any niceness, any gentleness, on my part, was taken advantage of. Because she knew what she was doing was wrong by her values, she had to go through a bucketload of rationalising and compartmentalising just to live with herself. This included blaming me for many, many things that were simply not my fault. It was like she had gone crazy.

Since coming to TAM, I have concluded that this is normal for waywards with a conscience. For such people, I gentle reason doesn't work, at least not at the time of the affair.

My request for JLD to provide examples where her approach has been right was genuine. Maybe she knows something I don't.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I only read the first page of the thread, but don't get down on yourself, lp. There is nothing cowardly about taking back your wife if she is sorry. Takes a lot more courage than dumping her and getting a new one.
> 
> When there is cheating, there are undoubtedly problems on both sides of the marriage. Having the courage to tackle these problems and resolve them shows character. You and anyone else who is pro-actively doing this should feel proud.
> 
> ...


Moat of this I agree with. Where I strongly disagree is the bit I have bolded. Because someone of either gender who cheats is responsible for that. If you are going to reconcile, you need to deal with that truth, not blame yourself and excuse your partner.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> You're not asking forgiveness for her cheating; that's on her. You're asking forgiveness for not being the husband you wish you had been, or she wishes you had been, before she was cheating. And it is easier to release her that way, too.
> 
> But beware: If you show this kind of maturity, she will never forget it, and will likely beg to come back at some point. Because this kind of humility sets you apart from 99% of men.


:rofl:

No further comment necessary.

Oh, wait. She forgot this: Guys, if girls aren't falling for you, just be yourself.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Jld,

It is fine to have a different opinion.

Do you hold the husband's of serial cheaters to the same standards?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Moat of this I agree with. Where I strongly disagree is the bit I have bolded. Because someone of either gender who cheats is responsible for that. If you are going to reconcile, you need to deal with that truth, not blame yourself and excuse your partner.


You're not excusing them. The cheating is on the cheater. You are simply saying, "You know what? Neither of us was perfect here. We both contributed to the condition of our marriage at that time." That is what I mean by not blaming, and by accepting responsibility for weaknesses.

Is it so impossible to believe that a husband would say the above? That he would ask his wife for specific things he could have done that could have made their marriage more satisfying for her? That once hearing her side, that he would not apologize for not having done that, and telling her he would make a sincere effort to improve from then on?

Have you read Gabriel's thread in private? 

He said he did not pay attention to his wife, and his wife had an EA. I don't know that he apologized to her for not paying attention to her, but he did say that he knows he needs to pay attention to her, consistently.

Gabriel is not the only husband here who has said that he was not perfect. There are other husbands, too.

And MEM wrote an example recently of what he might say if he and his wife ever broke up. I don't think it had to do with infidelity, but it was much along the lines of my second post. He was basically saying he was sorry he could not be what she needed, that he loved her and always would, and that he hoped she would find what she needed. I thought it sounded like a very nice way of releasing both of them from a marriage that was not working. 

Note: That was hypothetical from MEM, just an example of what he might say. It was not an actual dialogue he had had with his wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> :rofl:
> 
> No further comment necessary.
> 
> Oh, wait. She forgot this: Guys, if girls aren't falling for you, just be yourself.


And your prescription for a successful marriage is to become a bodybuilder? 

If a man is himself, he is going to attract a woman who loves him for himself, not for something exterior. Isn't that what he wants to be loved for? Isn't that the kind of authenticity a long term marriage can be built on?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Jld,
> 
> It is fine to have a different opinion.
> 
> ...


Well, they are not standards. They were just my thoughts when I read the OP's first post.

I think a serial cheater is different than a one time one. I don't think there is a solution for a serial cheater, except to let them go be with other serial cheaters. I do think there is a lot of hope for a one time remorseful spouse, especially if they have been married a long time, and have children.

And it annoys me to think that anyone would consider a man who takes a remorseful wife back as anything other than a kind man, a compassionate man, a forgiving and merciful man. And I hope he tunes out the men who might be making fun of him.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> And your prescription for a successful marriage is to become a bodybuilder?


My prescription is that the fastest way to attracting that first longing look from a woman is to get in shape like your ancient ancestor the warrior-hunter as opposed to the coke and cheetohs WoW warriors who typically wash up here.



jld said:


> If a man is himself, he is going to attract a woman who loves him for himself, not for something exterior. Isn't that what he wants to be loved for? Isn't that the kind of authenticity a long term marriage can be built on?


Most men are attracted to most women. Most women are not attracted to most men. See the problem? 

It's not a matter of authenticity, it's about realizing one needs to make change, sometimes profound change to get what they want out of life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> My prescription is that the fastest way to attracting that first longing look from a woman is to get in shape like your ancient ancestor the warrior-hunter as opposed to the coke and cheetohs WoW warriors who typically wash up here.
> 
> *Most men are attracted to most women. Most women are not attracted to most men. *See the problem?
> 
> It's not a matter of authenticity, it's about realizing one needs to make change, sometimes profound change to get what they want out of life.


Well, I certainly agree that losing the junk food and starting to exercise is a healthy way to go for all of us. And it does seem like many men are really into video games.

And what you said in bold above makes a lot of sense, though I never thought about it that way before.

Maybe I am just not a believer in instant physical attraction, Mach, as a basis for a long term relationship. I think it is best for men and women to start out as friends, get to know one another without pressure, and see if feelings develop. Physical attraction is certainly important, but by itself, imo, is not enough for maintaining a lifelong marriage.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> You're not excusing them. The cheating is on the cheater. You are simply saying, "You know what? Neither of us was perfect here. We both contributed to the condition of our marriage at that time." That is what I mean by not blaming, and by accepting responsibility for weaknesses.
> 
> Is it so impossible to believe that a husband would say the above? That he would ask his wife for specific things he could have done that could have made their marriage more satisfying for her? That once hearing her side, that he would not apologize for not having done that, and telling her he would make a sincere effort to improve from then on?
> 
> ...


Gabriel's thread illustrates my point. I followed it real time during the affair...he was trying to be nice, negotiate boundaries, and his wife was refusing to give up the other relationship. How long did it take?

I get that there is fault on both sides when a marriage goes bad. Blame is an inflammatory word on TAM, but you used it. Did I contribute to the conditions that led to my wife's affair? Absolutely. Am I to blame? No. She made certain decisions jointly with me, then reneged on various promises because she couldn't cope, including her promise of fidelity. But I tried nice, I tried discussion, and the affair kept going, escalating even. Not only that, she was actively blaming me "Can we go to counselling together?" "If you need counselling for all your problems and issues, go ahead, I don't need it." She eventually, without telling me, went to counselling without me, even though she " didn't need it". Mrs Wazza now recognises what she did wrong. Mrs Wazza then was like reasoning with a terrorist. Totally out of character with who she is. That out of character and unreasonable behaviour by people in affairs is what you seem not to understand.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Gabriel's thread illustrates my point. I followed it real time during the affair...he was trying to be nice, negotiate boundaries, and his wife was refusing to give up the other relationship. How long did it take?
> 
> I get that there is fault on both sides when a marriage goes bad. Blame is an inflammatory word on TAM, but you used it. Did I contribute to the conditions that led to my wife's affair? Absolutely. Am I to blame? No. She made certain decisions jointly with me, then reneged on various promises because she couldn't cope, including her promise of fidelity. But I tried nice, I tried discussion, and the affair kept going, escalating even. Not only that, she was actively blaming me "Can we go to counselling together?" "If you need counselling for all your problems and issues, go ahead, I don't need it." She eventually, without telling me, went to counselling without me, even though she " didn't need it". Mrs Wazza now recognises what she did wrong. Mrs Wazza then was like reasoning with a terrorist. Totally out of character with who she is. That out of character and unreasonable behaviour by people in affairs is what you seem not to understand.


Well, I just read the thread he has now in private. My understanding is that he told her to cut it off with OM, or he would divorce her. She complied.

It sounds like your wife did not respect you, and that she was addicted to the other man. You gave her an ultimatum like Gabriel did? Is that what stopped it?

I am sure you have had to be a leader throughout this, Wazza. I am sure it was not easy. But your willingness to take her back and work with her, and especially, your admitting your co-responsibility in the condition of the marriage leading up to the affair, is a testament to your character.


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

jld said:


> And it annoys me to think that anyone would consider a man who takes a remorseful wife back as anything other than a kind man, a compassionate man, a forgiving and merciful man. And I hope he tunes out the men who might be making fun of him.


Or how about a _realistic_ man. The estimates appear to vary widely and part of this might be how to get honest answers out of cheaters. I think the highest proportions I have heard of are Shere Hite's 1991 study on women and the 1992 follow-up that had 70% of married women and 72% of married men having cheated on their spouse.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

jld said:


> You're not asking forgiveness for her cheating; that's on her. You're asking forgiveness for not being the husband you wish you had been, or she wishes you had been, before she was cheating. And it is easier to release her that way, too.
> 
> But beware: If you show this kind of maturity, she will never forget it, and will likely beg to come back at some point. Because this kind of humility sets you apart from 99% of men.


This kind of thinking has been force fed to men for years. Then they wake up after being shafted and realize it was all lies. This is the genesis of "Redpill" thinking. Its not misogyny, its seeing through the BS. 

Machiavelli has it right. The reason his posts inflame the women on here is because it takes them off the pedestal and puts them down here with the rest of us "apes".


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ripper said:


> This kind of thinking has been force fed to men for years. Then they wake up after being shafted and realize it was all lies. This is the genesis of "Redpill" thinking. Its not misogyny, its seeing through the BS.
> 
> Machiavelli has it right. The reason his posts inflame the women on here is because it takes them off the pedestal and puts them down here with the rest of us "apes".


It does not mean you do not have limits and consequences for not respecting those limits, Ripper. That is important, too.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Ripper said:


> This kind of thinking has been force fed to men for years. Then they wake up after being shafted and realize it was all lies. This is the genesis of "Redpill" thinking. Its not misogyny, its seeing through the BS.
> 
> Machiavelli has it right. The reason his posts inflame the women on here is because it takes them off the pedestal and puts them down here with the rest of us "apes".


The trouble with Mach's advice is I see nothing there about bridging from a casual encounter with a promiscuous woman to a long term relationship. I sometimes wonder if the alpha thing is better as a warning.....women who respond to that sort of stuff are the ones to avoid.

We all have promiscuous desires and at some stage many or most of us will have the opportunity to act on them. It's what you do at times like that that counts.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, I just read the thread he has now in private. My understanding is that he told her to cut it off with OM, or he would divorce her. She complied.
> 
> It sounds like your wife did not respect you, and that she was addicted to the other man. You gave her an ultimatum like Gabriel did? Is that what stopped it?
> 
> I am sure you have had to be a leader throughout this, Wazza. I am sure it was not easy. But your willingness to take her back and work with her, and especially, your admitting your co-responsibility in the condition of the marriage leading up to the affair, is a testament to your character.


Gabriel has threads going back to mid 2011. I have not read all of them, but she certainly did not comply at first. He had to stop being nice, and start being firm. Three year and counting, tells you that his problems are not trivial.

As to the condition of my marriage...read my previous posts carefully. I love my wife, and she was in a bad place and struggling when the affair took place. But the decisions leading up to the affair were all hers, and like most people I had no clue there was even a problem until the affair was on and she was crazy. I do not believe anything I could have done different would necessarily have avoided the affair, and I had to be quite harsh over months to get her to stop. It really is as simple as a failure of character in her part. Eventually my harshness and her guilt got her to stop. 

Not sure how that fits with admitting co-responsibility. I do not think I did. I was not responsible that she chose to lie and cheat. These are not my insecurities talking, they are objective facts. She admits it now. The question I had to answer was whether I could rebuild with such a person. And by the way I pretty much had to lead the rebuilding, she didn't do much. Once it became clear I wasn't leaving she started to take it for granted that I wouldn't...and during the bad times I think she would not have been heartbroken if I had just ended it.

This post is long enough to be bordering on a thread jack. But honestly JLD, nice doesn't work. I see you write that in different threads and I fear for anyone who follows that advice. I have a lot of scars. I hope others will have an easier time.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

The alpha, beta, gamma, delta, zodiac, triad what the fvck ever thing is full retard and for idiot fratboys. 

Here's the truth. 

In terms of sexual attraction, just raw attractiveness to females. You either got game or you don't. Period. Now, there are "ways", like Money, a house, a good job, a title and so on that can make you more "attractive" to a female. But in terms of raw physical sex appeal, sorry but it's true. 

You either got it or you don't. 

Now, about the entire "am I beta brah for taking back my cheating wife", I'd say you're just a guy that took back a cheating ho. That's all. Now, there are really, really smart and good reasons to take back a cheating ho. 

Like if you got 3 kids, alimony, marital assets and so on and so on tied up in the ho. I mean, I know a few dudes that stayed with their terrible wives until most or all of their kids hit 18 and they could afford to get a divorce. 

DIVORCES ARE EXPENSIVE. Period. I spent probably 30 or 40 grand on mine I bet and it was a "smooth" divorce pretty much. They're pricey. Many guys just stay in the marriage to avoid financial ruin. 

Now, my motto is always-

Ditch the ho, gain a life. 

But too each their own. It doesn't make you less of a Man or less "alpha" when you take back your WW. It's an individual choice and must be assessed on an individual manner. 

So... Meh, pretty much that.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

jld said:


> I think a serial cheater is different than a one time one. I don't think there is a solution for a serial cheater, except to let them go be with other serial cheaters. I do think there is a lot of hope for a one time remorseful spouse, especially if they have been married a long time, and have children.
> 
> And it annoys me to think that anyone would consider a man who takes a remorseful wife back as anything other than a kind man, a compassionate man, a forgiving and merciful man. And I hope he tunes out the men who might be making fun of him.


jld,

I am glad that you recognize that a BH need not apologize to a serial cheater for not meeting her needs prior to the affairs. Whatever needs he was not meeting he probably could not have met in any case. But this is not certain.

Women sometimes desire emotional and sexual novelty. Their husbands may say, "I love you, darling." But it comes to mean less and less if they want to hear it from some one new. In retrospect, a man could have tried to be exciting (new), but not every guy can remake himself. He may be struggling with a stressful job. A few pounds of fat around the midsection may render him unsexy. That is why Mach recommends immediate physical change to at least make a BH aesthetically more competitive.

Men are certainly shallow. We are attracted to physical aspects of woman's appearance. I think its harder for a 37-year-old man to accept that his 36-year-old wife enjoys looking fitter young men who run by their house. She is not thinking about him when it comes to sexual fantasies, at all.

Is it surprizing that ordinary men and women who don't aspire to be cheaters do get caught up in extramarital sex lose self control? Statistics say that it happens a lot. Should the BS nuke the marriage or accept the damage to it for the sake of the children, the WS and him/herself?

If the BS chooses divorce, should they still apologize for not meeting their spouse's needs before the affair? Is it just to place all the guilt for the divorce on the wayward?

And if we are going to be tolerant of infidelity as you recommend shouldn't society prepare us for the likelihood of betrayal? Well, lawmakers have. The question of fault has been removed from divorce proceedings. This why interest in marriage has fallen. It is still good for wealthy, well educated couples who make a big investment in their relationship and offspring, but for poor people and the lower middle class marital success is more difficult.

Given this reality where are men supposed to get the confidence you so esteem?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> The trouble with Mach's advice is I see nothing there about bridging from a casual encounter with a promiscuous woman to a long term relationship. *I sometimes wonder if the alpha thing is better as a warning.....women who respond to that sort of stuff are the ones to avoid.*
> 
> We all have promiscuous desires and at some stage many or most of us will have the opportunity to act on them. It's what you do at times like that that counts.


:iagree:

And the guys that rely on it are ones to avoid, too.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> :iagree:
> 
> And the guys that rely on it are ones to avoid, too.


Alpha, Beta, etc are just tools to categorize the volume of sex on offer to different types of men. Absent lawlessness, the women choose who they want to have sex with, and they vote with their V. 

To illustrate: If women as a mass started having sex with men with red hair to the point that red haired men had 10X the lifetime average number of sex partners as non-gingers, then the definition of Alpha would be a guy with red hair. It wouldn't matter how much the women said they weren't sexually attracted to the red haired guys, especially when the H finds red hair stuck to his wife's panties. You can also be assured that if this was the state of affairs, Clairol would sell an awful lot of red dye.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Gabriel has threads going back to mid 2011. I have not read all of them, but she certainly did not comply at first. He had to stop being nice, and start being firm. Three year and counting, tells you that his problems are not trivial. I am only familiar with the one in private.
> 
> As to the condition of my marriage...read my previous posts carefully. I love my wife, and she was in a bad place and struggling when the affair took place. But the decisions leading up to the affair were all hers, and like most people I had no clue there was even a problem until the affair was on and she was crazy. No clues? Did you see the WAW thread in Ladies, where women mentioned husbands being told they were unhappy until they were blue in the face, and the men acting shocked when they actually left? I do not believe anything I could have done different would necessarily have avoided the affair, Only you know if that is true. I am sure it is comforting to feel that way, though. and I had to be quite harsh over months to get her to stop. It really is as simple as a failure of character in her part. I can believe there are women like that. Eventually my harshness Can you describe the harshness? I am not familiar with your story.and her guilt got her to stop.
> 
> ...


I don't think you understand when you say Nice doesn't work. I know waywards need limits and consequences, and sometimes divorce is the best option. And maybe in your situation, divorce would still be the best option. I am not familiar with your story, so I don't know.

I am talking about a sincerely remorseful wayward. That is a woman whose husband should consider meeting her at least halfway, looking at what he did wrong, and how it could all have perhaps been different. It is only going to help him, even in a subsequent relationship, to look at what he did to contribute to things. That is how he can avoid it, and his own possible heartbreak, in the future.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> jld,
> 
> I am glad that you recognize that a BH need not apologize to a serial cheater for not meeting her needs prior to the affairs. Nobody needs to apologize to anyone for anything, LW. And an apology should be sincere. I think examining one's conscience is healthy. I think realizing one has fallen short, in however small a way, acknowledging that, and asking forgiveness, is a sign of maturity in a human. I have a great deal of respect for people who can do this.Whatever needs he was not meeting he probably could not have met in any case. But this is not certain. Hence the need, in a mature man, for sincere reflection. And I do think that with serial cheaters the only realistic solution is divorce. Sexual addiction is extremely difficult to cure, and probably can only be contained with great commitment to self-control.
> 
> ...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't think you understand when you say Nice doesn't work. I know waywards need limits and consequences, and sometimes divorce is the best option. And maybe in your situation, divorce would still be the best option. I am not familiar with your story, so I don't know.
> 
> I am talking about a sincerely remorseful wayward. That is a woman whose husband should consider meeting her at least halfway, looking at what he did wrong, and how it could all have perhaps been different. It is only going to help him, even in a subsequent relationship, to look at what he did to contribute to things. That is how he can avoid it, and his own possible heartbreak, in the future.


A sincerely remorseful wayward who is stil in the affair is a contradiction in terms. Maybe that sums up what it is you don't get.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> I am talking about a sincerely remorseful wayward.


Sincerely remorseful waywards are like the great white buffalo. A WS has to justify their actions. They have done so long before they became a WS. When first found out, it is extremely unlikely, although yet, still possible to find one. 

You cannot justify cheating. The BS was generally not asked if they were okay with it, since they weren't doing this or that on a consistent basis. The BS wasn't told the consequence was that the guy they met while out at the bar or wherever, who was quite attractive, comforting and understanding, who bought them a drink and let them cry on their shoulder about their husband and their marriage was going to be allowed to have his way with her, if he/she did not shape up and do as they expected. 

Whatever the reason, the excuse, the justification, it's likely not good enough. Was the AP there when you cried because something didn't go your way. Was the AP there when the husband held you because you favorite pet died. Was the AP there when your mother told you what to do and you were so angry, you talked about it for a week with your husband and your sisters. Was the AP there when your child skinned their knee and your crappy husband did his best to clean and bandage the wound and comfort your child. Was the AP there when you had a headache or a tummy ache and needed comfort or just someone to run to the store and get you something to relieve it. Was the AP there when your boss was angry with you and your husband listened and agreed with you that your feelings were nothing but correct. And so many more...

The AP was there when you looked your best going out. He was there for you when you put on that nice face and personality when you didn't want to. The AP was there for that extra effort you put toward having fun and smiling. Did the spouse get to enjoy those times or were they just for someone new who never went through any of the socalled bad times?

What you are talking about could possibly work after the anger is gone, after all the pain of discovery and knowing your spouse's mouth was somewhere it shouldn't have been and you are kissing them. It comes after the counseling and the fog of natural chemicals quit influencing thoughts and behaviors. 

You simplify it too much. It is not that simple. Wouldn't most spouses who have just discovered the affair love to be able to just move to reconciliation with the assurance that an apology would turn things around? Wouldn't many here have done just that, if it would actually work? Wouldn't BS' love to be able to fall asleep at night and not have nightmares about what happened? Wouldn't that apology be the first thing out of their mouth if they knew it would stop all of the emotions, mistrust, proving and checking that has to go on now. Wouldn't the BS give anything to go back to before the affair and work on the changes.

I saw a unicorn early this morning farting rainbows. I did. She was beautiful. The rainbows smelled like fresh flowers.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> A sincerely remorseful wayward who is stil in the affair is a contradiction in terms. Maybe that sums up what it is you don't get.


I meant after the affair ended.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I meant after the affair ended.


How do you know when an affair is ended?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

martyc47 said:


> Wives don't just cheat with men who are "more alpha." That's a generalization that is obviously false.


They will cheat on you BECAUSE you are alpha.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf, you have been divorced twice, right? So it is understandable that you are wary of trusting again.

I just don't like seeing people stuck in blame and resentment. I think it is empowering to look at what we may have done wrong, and how we could correct it. I am just not sure how we heal if we do not try to understand how something happened in the first place.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> How do you know when an affair is ended?


That is interesting. You do not know? You cannot feel it from her?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jld said:


> 2ntnuf, you have been divorced twice, right? So it is understandable that you are wary of trusting again.
> 
> I just don't like seeing people stuck in blame and resentment. I think it is empowering to look at what we may have done wrong, and how we could correct it. I am just not sure how we heal if we do not try to understand how something happened in the first place.


Don't make this about me. You like to do that. You like to make this about someone else. You don't like to think that someone made a choice. You like to think that a wife is too weak to make her own decisions. You like to think that she is forced to cheat because her husband has done something. That's how this started.

This is about you, jld. It is about YOU. That's the reason for all of this. I've seen enough of your posts to know what you do.

Accept that you could be wrong and admit it. Accept that you have no idea how it feels to be betrayed. Accept that the only thing you understand is the view of a potential wayward who is a married woman. 

Accept that you can only understand what it is like to be the wife in a marriage and not have things done or accomplished when and how you would like them. That's where you come from on all your posts, jld. 

That's what you understand best.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jld said:


> 2ntnuf, you have been divorced twice, right? So it is understandable that you are wary of trusting again.
> 
> I just don't like seeing people stuck in blame and resentment. I think it is empowering to look at what we may have done wrong, and how we could correct it.  I am just not sure how we heal if we do not try to understand how something happened in the first place.


Read my post again, jld. It explains that. Don't just skim it with anger in your heart. Release the bitterness you have and look at it objectively. The answer is there.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Staying with a wayward will reinforce a self image as a beta and if it was not your self image can create it over time.

Plus society will force that image on you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Staying with a wayward will reinforce a self image as a beta and if it was not your self image can create it over time.
> 
> Plus society will force that image on you.


But you don't have to accept it.

My dad lost his right arm in a corn picker 14 years before I was born. I never thought of him as handicapped. He didn't think of himself as handicapped. He just plunged forward in life, doing what he could.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wouldn't the greatest compassion be for the potential wayward to come to their spouse before the affair, when they know they are having problems and tell the flat out, with nothing more than honesty, that they can no longer live the way they have been, before the affair? Wouldn't that prove the WS has great empathy? Wouldn't that prove their worth? I can certainly see a poor spouse who is in that position begging forgiveness and committing to the best they can possibly do. I can also see them failing to meet those goals. That's where the most good and the least amount of harm is done.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Wouldn't the greatest compassion be for the potential wayward to come to their spouse before the affair, when they know they are having problems and tell the flat out, with nothing more than honesty, that they can no longer live the way they have been, before the affair? Wouldn't that prove the WS has great empathy? Wouldn't that prove their worth? I can certainly see a poor spouse who is in that position begging forgiveness and committing to the best they can possibly do. I can also see them failing to meet those goals. That's where the most good and the least amount of harm is done.


Yes, that would be the best.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jld said:


> But you don't have to accept it.
> 
> My dad lost his right arm in a corn picker 14 years before I was born. I never thought of him as handicapped. He didn't think of himself as handicapped. He just plunged forward in life, doing what he could.


Its a huge amounr of mass to fight against, when you dont have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Wazza said:


> A sincerely remorseful wayward who is stil in the affair is a contradiction in terms. Maybe that sums up what it is you don't get.





jld said:


> I meant after the affair ended.





Wazza said:


> How do you know when an affair is ended?





jld said:


> That is interesting. You do not know? You cannot feel it from her?


Now do you see what you don't get? 

Next question, how and when is trust returned? How does a BS feel secure in a relationship where trust is compromised, perhaps massively?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Staying with a wayward will reinforce a self image as a beta and if it was not your self image can create it over time.
> 
> Plus society will force that image on you.


I don't especially care what society thinks. I made my choices based on what I thought was right for me and the people I cared about.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Staying with a wayward will reinforce a self image as a beta and if it was not your self image can create it over time.
> 
> Plus society will force that image on you.


Do you think being Beta is synonymous with being submissive?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

treyvion said:


> They will cheat on you BECAUSE you are alpha.


Precisely. Then alpha dumps her and she finds a B-P to support her and her alpha spawn and they live more less happily ever after until she rediscovers Alpha-Ex on Facebook. And the cycle starts up again.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> But you don't have to accept it.
> 
> My dad lost his right arm in a corn picker 14 years before I was born. I never thought of him as handicapped. He didn't think of himself as handicapped. He just plunged forward in life, doing what he could.


You're comparing apples and bacon.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

This is a tough question to answer.

For me personally, the answer would be a definite yes.

I could never look myself in the mirror again.

However, I know other people are very different from me. And I would NEVER insult another man and question his manhood because he decided on another path.

The only further remark I would make is this: I will still try to talk ANY man out of staying if it appears to be based on rugsweeping and weakness.

If a man chooses to stay it should be from a position of strength, not being a doormat out of fear he will lose a traitorous woman.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Now do you see what you don't get?
> 
> Next question, how and when is trust returned? How does a BS feel secure in a relationship where trust is compromised, perhaps massively?


What you are saying is you can't be sure. You can't ever be sure.

Is that it? If she has done it once, she could do it again?

If you really cannot trust, maybe releasing both of you would be a kindness.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Wouldn't the greatest compassion be for the potential wayward to come to their spouse before the affair, when they know they are having problems and tell the flat out, with nothing more than honesty, that they can no longer live the way they have been, before the affair? Wouldn't that prove the WS has great empathy? Wouldn't that prove their worth? I can certainly see a poor spouse who is in that position begging forgiveness and committing to the best they can possibly do. I can also see them failing to meet those goals. That's where the most good and the least amount of harm is done.


While I'm sure that some WS never do tell their spouse that there is a problem, a lot do. Often the BS does not pay attention to what their spouse is telling them.. they blow it off.

I've seen this many times. The mistake that the WS makes is to have an affair instead of just dumping a spouse who could care less about their needs.

I can tell you story after story where this has happened.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

treyvion said:


> Its a huge amounr of mass to fight against, when you dont have to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you cannot get past it, if you cannot both look honestly and fearlessly at what happened and fix things, if she cannot be sincerely remorseful, if you cannot forgive her and start a new marriage . . . then maybe divorce is the way to go.

But if you and she can do those things, there is no shame at all in forging a new marriage. There is great courage. And don't let anyone tell you differently.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> You're comparing apples and bacon.


Something ****** happened. You have to decide how to deal with it. 

My dad could have lived the rest of his life in bitterness and self-pity. He chose not to.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I don't especially care what society thinks. I made my choices based on what I thought was right for me and the people I cared about.


Now _that_ is alpha . . .


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> But you don't have to accept it.
> 
> My dad lost his right arm in a corn picker 14 years before I was born. I never thought of him as handicapped. He didn't think of himself as handicapped. He just plunged forward in life, doing what he could.





jld said:


> Something ****** happened. You have to decide how to deal with it.
> 
> My dad could have lived the rest of his life in bitterness and self-pity. He chose not to.


Would he have said that the corn picker made a conscious decision to selfishly betray him or that it was nothing more than an unfortunate accident?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> If a man chooses to stay *it should be from a position of strength, *not being a doormat out of fear he will lose a traitorous woman.


Yes. The idea is that he and she now realize their marriage was not healthy before, and the affair was symptomatic of that. Now they are together going to build it anew. There will be clear expectations of both of them, and accountability. Transparency will be very helpful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Would he have said that the corn picker made a conscious decision to selfishly betray him or that it was nothing more than an unfortunate accident?


He did not want to take the time to turn it off. He reached his hand in to pull out a cob, and it and his forearm were smashed, and later amputated.

He had done it many times before. But that time he got burned.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes. The idea is that he and she now realize their marriage was not healthy before, and the affair was symptomatic of that. Now they are together going to build it anew. There will be clear expectations of both of them, and accountability. Transparency will be very helpful.


The idea is that he and she now realize their marriage was not healthy before, and they each take responsibility for their own actions and inaction.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> What you are saying is you can't be sure. You can't ever be sure.
> 
> Is that it? If she has done it once, she could do it again?
> 
> If you really cannot trust, maybe releasing both of you would be a kindness.


Under what circumstances do you seek to repair a relationship vs end it? When do you have those discussions that sets a man above the other 99%

And if you end it, how do you avoid repeating the pattern in your next relationship? How do you have certainty next time around? Or do you just choose to live alone? 

How do you reach what you call being secure?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Yes. The idea is that he and she now realize their marriage was not healthy before, and the affair was symptomatic of that. Now they are together going to build it anew. There will be clear expectations of both of them, and accountability. Transparency will be very helpful.


Affairs are often (not always) a symptom of a very broken marriage. Here on TAM it's very common to portray all BS as completely innocent victims. That's seldom the case.

Perhaps if examples are a way of getting this across...


A woman I know was married to a man for 15 years. On the surface he was a good provider. She worked part time as a substitute school teacher, took care of their children, the house, etc.

They were both in the 10+ category of appearance... He was often mistaken to be Robert Redford and she Rachael Welch (yes they are just about doubles of those two).

In front of people they appeared very loving. She often sat on his lap, they hugged, kissed, etc. when in social situations.

But apparently in private it was a very different story.

He used to whisper things in her ear when she was sitting on his lap. We all thought that it was so sweet. Well apparently it was not sweet. What he was whispering are things like... "Why did you say that? You sound like a jack ass."; "YOu look awful in that outfit.. got change", "Your eye is twitching..".. and on and on.

In private he tore her down constantly because he made the money and she was not worth anything.

She was very social, he was not. What he wanted to do when they were along together was to sit and the couch together and watch TV. Talking was not allowed.

With sex, his belief was that women's rights had ruined women because women today expected to enjoy sex. They had sex daily... on his terms. She had to lay there, such up and let him get off. He did not allow her to move or engage in sex.

She tried talking to him. Tried to get him to counseling for years. He would not go.

She finally had a complete emotional break down and ended up in an affair with her high school sweet heart. 

Her husband was shocked and took the innocent victim stance. he wanted to reconcile but took the stance of the injured victim.

She ended up leaving him. Why? Because he took no responsibility for the way he had cheated her. He still would not address his mistreatment of her.

She dumped him as she should have to start with.

She is now in a marriage (18 years now.. .they adore each other, are very social, and have a great life)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> The idea is that he and she now realize their marriage was not healthy before, and they each take responsibility for their own actions and inaction.


That's right. And each of them owes the other an apology for the wrongs they committed in the marriage.

But most here seems to be that the BS does not have to take responsibility for the wrongs that they did in the past.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> That's right. And each of them owes the other an apology for the wrongs they committed in the marriage.
> 
> But most here seems to be that the BS does not have to take responsibility for the wrongs that they did in the past.


No one owes anything to the other. It's a choice, just as in your example where you said something like, "she should have left him long ago". That's her choice and she was not wrong in divorcing him. He was wrong for whispering those, "sweet nothings " in her ears.

I can tell you how I have taken responsiblilty for my own actions and inaction, but you likely would not agree that what I have done was enough. What is enough to repay is subjective. I will not argue that with you. 

In the case you mentioned, you do realize, if the ex-wife did not take care of her issues with fear of leaving and verbally abusive husbands, she is likely,but not guaranteed to return to the same type of man and do it all over again, don't you? 

In my mind, that is taking responsiblity for our own actions and inaction, in one way. 

Thanks for recognizing my post.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> He did not want to take the time to turn it off. He reached his hand in to pull out a cob, and it and his forearm were smashed, and later amputated.
> 
> He had done it many times before. But that time he got burned.


Well, you didn't really answer my question, but that's OK. I'll ask it another way...

Do you think that your father would have continued to use that particular corn picker if he'd had even the slightest notion that it had made a conscious decision to maim him?

Probably not. That's not to say that he wouldn't have continued to pick corn (I'm assuming that's what one would use a corn picker for...), but he probably would have started using a _different_ corn picker.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Under what circumstances do you seek to repair a relationship vs end it? Is she remorseful? Truly remorseful? Transparent? Humble? Willing to meet all reasonable demands? What are your personal criteria? That is what really matters. When do you have those discussions that sets a man above the other 99% A man who is humble and mature enough to admit his faults in the marriage? I would think your conscience would be plaguing you, too. You have probably gone over and over what you could have done differently. Have you admitted those things to her? Asked forgiveness?
> 
> And if you end it, how do you avoid repeating the pattern in your next relationship? That is critical. That is why you have to thoroughly examine your conscience and probably get some outside opinions, too. Often people attract or are attracted to the same kind of person as before, if they don't make a conscious effort to do things differently.How do you have certainty next time around? Do you ever? My dh could be killed in a car accident tomorrow. Who really knows the future?Or do you just choose to live alone? Some have. It may be best for a while, until a lot of healing has happened.
> 
> How do you reach what you call being secure? When you do what is in the best interests of all concerned, without selfishness or malice, and are impervious to what all others think. One clue to me is when someone is not defensive or aggressive on a website.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I can tell you how I have taken responsibility for my own actions and inaction, but you likely would not agree that what I have done was enough. What is enough to repay is subjective. I will not argue that with you.


If what you did satisfied your wife, that’s what matters.


2ntnuf said:


> In the case you mentioned, you do realize, if the ex-wife did not take care of her issues with fear of leaving and verbally abusive husbands, she is likely, but not guaranteed to return to the same type of man and do it all over again, don't you?


Yes I know that if a person does not handle their issues, they can find themselves in the same situation all over again.
In her case she did not have that problem. She married a guy who is completely different from her ex.



2ntnuf said:


> In my mind, that is taking responsibility for our own actions and inaction, in one way.


In order for her to stay in her marriage, she needed her husband to take responsibility for what he had done to her and to go to counseling to make changes. He refused. Even though she was the WS, she had the right to set what she needed in order to even consider reconciliation. That’s my point. IN many marriages the WS is not the only spouse who has done serious wrong. The BS and the WS both have a right to set what they require for reconciliation. And often the WS needs for the BS to admit the harm that they did. 

I am of course not making any assumptions about you and your marriage here. I don’t’ know enough that to comment.



2ntnuf said:


> Thanks for recognizing my post.


You are welcome. Thanks for a good exchange of ideas.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Well, you didn't really answer my question, but that's OK. I'll ask it another way...
> 
> Do you think that your father would have continued to use that particular corn picker if he'd had even the slightest notion that it had made a conscious decision to maim him?
> 
> Probably not. That's not to say that he wouldn't have continued to pick corn (I'm assuming that's what one would use a corn picker for...), but he probably would have started using a _different_ corn picker.


The corn picker did not do it, Gus. He did not follow the rules of corn picker safety.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> If what you did satisfied your wife, that’s what matters.
> 
> 
> Yes I know that if a person does not handle their issues, they can find themselves in the same situation all over again.
> ...


Did she take responsiblity for the damage her affair did? (The guy sounds awful but a divorce not an affair would be the answer.)


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> The corn picker did not do it, Gus. He did not follow the rules of corn picker safety.


Ah, and the WS did not follow "the rules" of their vows.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> If what you did satisfied your wife, that’s what matters. Excellent point, Ele.
> 
> Yes I know that if a person does not handle their issues, they can find themselves in the same situation all over again.
> In her case she did not have that problem. She married a guy who is completely different from her ex. Was character a lot more important the second time? I am guessing so, but wanted to ask.
> ...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If what you did satisfied your wife, that’s what matters.
> 
> I am not in control of her happiness.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Did she take responsiblity for the damage her affair did? (The guy sounds awful but a divorce not an affair would be the answer.)


Yes she apologized for the affair.

He refused to take responsibility for what he did. 

(By the way he had affairs long before she had her affair. But she did not know about his affairs at the time. He never apologized for those either.)

Of course she should have just divorced him and not had an affair. But we are talking about a real situation here and real people. People are flawed.. they have affairs. So we deal with what really happened and not what a perfect person would have done.

I don't think that she would have ever left him had she not had the affair. She was so emotionally broken that several of us were ready to take her to see someone. It was only after we confronted her about being worried about her that she started tell people what was going on in the relationship. The a couple of months after that she started the affair. 

Only after the affair played out did she get emotionally strong enough to confront her husband and leave him. That's they this kind of affair is called an exit affair.

If a person is abusive or seriously neglects their spouse's needs, should they really be surprised if their spouse has an affair? While I think that there are better choices than affairs, I don't think that every BS is a poor victim.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yes she apologized for the affair.
> 
> He refused to take responsibility for what he did.
> 
> ...


Agreed the reason I bring it up - is by divorcing and not having the affair she sets a good example for her kids about handling adversity - since from your description he sounds like a POS. It is about her and the kids he can go pound sand.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> If a person is abusive or seriously neglects their spouse's needs, should they really be surprised if their spouse has an affair? Nope. While I think that there are better choices than affairs, I don't think that every BS is a poor victim.Agreed.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed the reason I bring it up - is by divorcing and not having the affair she sets a good example for her kids about handling adversity - since from your description he sounds like a POS. It is about her and the kids he can go pound sand.


Yes he is a POS. But if you met him you would not know it. Everyone outside that household thought that he was a wonderful husband and father. More people that we realize (male/female) put on a good front to the world and at home they are POSs.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yes he is a POS. But if you met him you would not know it. Everyone outside that household thought that he was a wonderful husband and father. More people that we realize (male/female) put on a good front to the world and at home they are POSs.


Is he verbally abusive with his children too?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yes she apologized for the affair.
> 
> I doubt that would do much more than add insult to injury, in most cases. I imagine a WS doing that only to continue the hurt/harm. Even in this circumstance, where he was abusive.
> 
> ...


I agree, not every BS is a poor victim of a divorce. They are a victim of an affair. 

You see, the trouble with justifying is we can find a justification for anything. We can even justify his verbal abuse, if we knew his side of things. That doesn't make what he did any less harmful or right. It only supports bad behavior. 

We don't normally tell a spouse healing from a divorce to go right out and have sex and get into another relationship. Why would anyone condone that with someone who has been verbally abused? Isn't abuse more harmful than irreconcilable differences?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

jld said:


> The corn picker did not do it, Gus. He did not follow the rules of corn picker safety.


Dodge! Parry! Thrust!

Robin Hood's Moves Part 1


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Is he verbally abusive with his children too?


He was not verbally abusive to the children. What he did with them is that when they were home, they were not allowed to make any noise in the house, etc. He was nit picky I guess is the way I'd put it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> He was not verbally abusive to the children. What he did with them is that when they were home, they were not allowed to make any noise in the house, etc. He was nit picky I guess is the way I'd put it.


Wow what a guy :scratchhead: In the end it was his loss. To make a family and then not even cherish and enjoy it is just a waste.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow what a guy :scratchhead: In the end it was his loss. To make a family and then not even cherish and enjoy it is just a waste.


Isn't that why all of us are here? We want to learn how to cherish our spouse? If your marriage or relationship was perfect, you wouldn't be here. 

By the way, what he did with his children was abusive. He had lots of issues.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> He was not verbally abusive to the children. What he did with them is that when they were home, they were not allowed to make any noise in the house, etc. He was nit picky I guess is the way I'd put it.


That's abuse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I doubt that would do much more than add insult to injury, in most cases. I imagine a WS doing that only to continue the hurt/harm. Even in this circumstance, where he was abusive.


You think that a WS apologizing for an affair is only adding insult to injury? I find that odd.

In know that in my case, when my 2nd husband apologized, coupled with his basically following the MB ideas of what a WS needs to do, his apology was not adding insult to injury. It was a large part of why I gave him a chance.



2ntnuf said:


> I agree, not every BS is a poor victim of a divorce. They are a victim of an affair.


We can make a list of which wrongs each spouse in this case is a victim of. In my book, her cheating was no worse than his years and years of being abusive.


2ntnuf said:


> You see, the trouble with justifying is we can find a justification for anything. We can even justify his verbal abuse, if we knew his side of things. That doesn't make what he did any less harmful or right. It only supports bad behavior.


It’s not justification of anything to recognize human nature. At some point they all parties involved have to stop what they are doing wrong, recognize their own faults and work to do better and meet each other’s needs in the future. If each cannot recognize their own wrong doings then reconciliation will not work.


2ntnuf said:


> We don't normally tell a spouse healing from a divorce to go right out and have sex and get into another relationship. Why would anyone condone that with someone who has been verbally abused? Isn't abuse more harmful than irreconcilable differences?


I don’t condone what she did. When she was in the affair she asked me to cover for her by saying she was at my place. I told her to own her bad behavior and not get me involved. She had told her husband that she was at my house. When he called to check I told that she was not at my house.

Yes abuse is more harmful than irreconcilable differences.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You think that a WS apologizing for an affair is only adding insult to injury? I find that odd.
> 
> In know that in my case, when my 2nd husband apologized, *coupled with* his basically following the MB ideas of what a WS needs to do, his apology was not adding insult to injury. It was a large part of why I gave him a chance.
> 
> ...


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

jld said:


> Something ****** happened. You have to decide how to deal with it.
> 
> My dad could have lived the rest of his life in bitterness and self-pity. He chose not to.


Your dad had a farming accident, he didn't make a conscious decision to put his had into a combine. R is a conscious decision.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Let's see if that makes sense. Let's flip it around. "In my book, his years and years of abuse, were no worse than her cheating." Nope. Does NOT work for me. He whispered things in her ear, which no one else heard, and then she smiled about it for how many years, and never told anyone, until after she had an affair and was caught, and one of the people she told was her friend, whom she respects and admires, and who does not normally justify cheating. Oh, and he was abusive to his children, whom he would not let do as they pleased. He was utterly wrong for abusing her.


A person cannot abuse their spouse for years and not expect that in the end it will back fire on them. 



2ntnuf said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. I was mistaken. I thought this was about the choice to have an affair and whether or not justifying that choice was okay. I was totally confused.


If you think this has been my point, then you have completely misconstrued what I have been saying. My point is that not all BS are innocent victims. More often than some here will admit, the BS has destroyed the marriage and harmed the WS long before the affair. 


2ntnuf said:


> I really do hope she is happy. That is not a sarcastic statement.


She is in a good marriage now. She has done a lot of work on herself.


2ntnuf said:


> I would not trust you, if I was her new husband. Was the OM married, also? Does he have children other than with his present wife? Did you tell her she needed to get a divorce and counseling to repair any damage caused by the ongoing affairs her husband had and the years and years of verbal abuse?


Her current husband knows everything that went on in the past. We have all talked about it. 

Why wouldn’t you trust me? I did not lie for her or have anything to do with her affair. I only found out about it a short bit before she left him. Actually I found out about it the time she asked me to cover for her. She asked me to tell her husband that she was staying with me and asleep when if he called. I told her I would not. AT that point I guessed about she was having an affair. As I said earlier, when her husband did call I told him that she was not at my house.

Her affair partner had been divorced for a few years when they had the affair. 

When she told me what was going on in her marriage (this was before her affair) my advice to her was to just divorce him. Of course to get counseling too.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> A person cannot abuse their spouse for years and not expect that in the end it will back fire on them.
> 
> I think you misunderstood me. That's alright. I needed to separate the first sentence from the rest. I made a mistake.
> 
> ...


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Well thanks for the kind words and while I am not a perfect husband I am a good husband and father, everyone who knows me knows how much I have done for my wife and the pedestal she was on(still is in many ways)
> 
> However her cheating is completely on her,* it was her choice not her mistake her choice*, no matter my faults I did not deserve to be treated this way, our marriage, our children and me all deserved better. She knows that and while the process can be slow at times we try to move forward.
> 
> ...


Love=

To clarify, I thought you had mentioned in another thread that your wife also had a ONS with someone in the early days of your marriage. I.e. was 2 years ago her first time?

Look, I think I am your #1 empathizer. Your sadness and frustration are never far beneath the surface in your posts. You do a good job describing both your thoughts and feelings. So I've got to tell you, after 2 years if you are still struggling like you seem to be, do you really think you should go on exactly as you have up to this point? 

I think you feel extraordinary humiliation from your wife's actions of two years ago. Th measures your wife has taken to heal your wounds are less than extraordinary. I think it is time for phase 2. I have strong opinions on what that should be. But for now let me just, with confidence, say that there are a lot of women out there better than your wife. There are guys that have done worse I'm sure, but a lot that have done better. The day you feel you should be in the latter category is the day you'll know that you are healed.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

love=pain, 
reconciliation is tough and it makes sense that you're second guessing yourself.

You wonder if you've come acrosss as emotionally weak in some way.
You wonder if you're setting the stage for a repeat.

Just try to use logic and not emotion in this crisis. Imagine that you're an odd's maker in Vegas betting on your marriage and the likelyhood of a lasting change. If you wouldn't take the bet then think about what actions and conversations a BS would need to have in order for you to feel it's a safe bet. Then take those actions and have those conversations.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Lies can be defined in many ways. You enabled her affair, that's certain.


No, I did not enable her affair. I did not know about it until that time she asked me to cover for her. I refused to cover for her. How is that enabling her affair? That is in fact not enabling her affair.



2ntnuf said:


> For me, that reads like justification.


How is refusing to cover for her affair, justifying her affair?


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

jld said:


> He did not want to take the time to turn it off. He reached his hand in to pull out a cob, and it and his forearm were smashed, and later amputated.
> 
> He had done it many times before. But that time he got burned.


Yes, he did stuff up for sure. However the corn picker never specifically warned him that the very next time he reached his hand in to pull out the cob, it would smash his forearm to pieces.

If it had, I'm sure your dad would not have done it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes, he did stuff up for sure. However the corn picker never specifically warned him that the very next time he reached his hand in to pull out the cob, it would smash his forearm to pieces.
> 
> If it had, I'm sure your dad would not have done it.


He paid the price for not paying attention to how the corn picker worked. He knew what he was supposed to do, but did not feel like taking the time.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Did she take responsiblity for the damage her affair did? (The guy sounds awful but a divorce not an affair would be the answer.)


Absolutely agree! An affair is NEVER the answer. Truth, integrity, openness and determined communication is the answer. 

If a spouse's behaviour is abusive then the correct answer is to leave the relationship, not hang on until an "emotional breakdown" leading to an affair occurs.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

jld said:


> He paid the price for not paying attention to how the corn picker worked. He knew what he was supposed to do, but did not feel like taking the time.


That's right he did know. But he wasn't told first before the final smashing of the elbow. (The actual affair) 

You have side-stepped your own analogy jld.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Absolutely agree! An affair is NEVER the answer. Truth, integrity, openness and determined communication is the answer.
> 
> If a spouse's behaviour is abusive then the correct answer is to leave the relationship, not hang on until an "emotional breakdown" leading to an affair occurs.


Yes and every one here is perfect and never makes a bad choice. I know. This is after all TAM.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Yes and every one here is perfect and never makes a bad choice. I know. This is after all TAM.


Was I alluding to the need for perfection? No, that was not at all my intent.

In regards to my own marriage, the ONLY reason I am in R with my WH is precisely BECAUSE I recognize my own shortcomings and am now working hard on those marital imperfections to create a healthy marriage.



The "woman that you know" was not perfect before she had the luxury of her "emotional breakdown". Her husband most certainly wasn't. But SHE was the one to forgo her vows and have an affair, BEFORE she told him, (and was making preparations for) that his continuing abuse was going to lead to her leaving the marriage. This was just as weak and infantile as his verbal abuse was. 

He however did not have an affair. 
His imperfection was revealed by his apparent "verbal" abuse to be sure, but she took it to another level by not communicating that it it was end game for her and if he didn't shape up and cease and desist she was going to ship out! Not so hard really when you look at it clinically and with detachment.

If you prefer, his apparent fidelity does makes him more "perfect" in my eyes than he obviously does in yours. However, the truth, no matter how you want to look at it, is that they were, until the affair, on an equal footing.


Despite what you believe I am fully aware of the fallibility and frailty of human nature. I study it as a matter of fact. Infidelity however, ( I believe) is in a class of its own, because, unlike in-the-moment human anger, rage, tears and fears, it is a quite deliberate act which is almost akin to deliberate, destructive acts such as murder. 

I reiterate ALMOST, before anyone attempts to make comparisons. 

Like there are degrees of murder, there are degrees of infidelity (IMO) and certain degrees.....EA's, Internet affairs with no physical contact (for example) warrant lesser standards of reparation and accountability. But only each individual BS can decide on the specific level of R and A that is required, given their own individual and unique circumstances.

Only THEY have the requisite qualifications to be judge, jury and if necessary, executioner.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The way people are editing within quotes may look pretty with all the nice colours, but makes it hard to pick out the key ideas and engage with them.

JLD, I thought maybe I was convincing you of the flaw in your reasoning, but then your last post to me seemed to lose it all. 

I wrote a long post here, but decided not to post it. I will simply say that your ideas look very nice in theory, but they show clearly that you have no idea how an affair plays out or what it feels like. The simple question I asked you - how do you know the affair has stopped - is a fairly basic example you couldn't answer. And given its the starting point of your process......

Here is some homework for you if you really want to understand. This is a couple who both posted. They work at the same college, where the wife had an affair with a student. This thread pics up with the second D day, post 167 contains a potted summary of the affair to date and post 231 is where there is a third D day. Lies just keep being revealed. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61098-third-strike.html

Husband is trying to work with his wife, she is just continuing the affair. Here is her thread from that time. She was not only lying to her husband but to the whole TAM community:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61164-three-strikes-mrs.html

And here is her second thread, post D day. Do read at least the first post of this one:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...oo-many-ruined-chances-count-mrs_mathias.html

This is a couple who are working on reconciliation. It might give you a feel for what is involved. Try and empathise with Mr Mathias's position May to November. He was making effort, she was dissing it all. Again, all the progress made in fixing things happened when he stopped being nice.

These guys are reconciling, or were last time I communicated with them.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Love=
> 
> To clarify, I thought you had mentioned in another thread that your wife also had a ONS with someone in the early days of your marriage. I.e. was 2 years ago her first time?
> 
> ...


You are right I am humiliated from her actions some of the participants were friends so it is double. 
Furthermore I firmly believe that as the man the head of the house I am responsible for the success and failure of everyone in the house that I am supposed to be leading. If they succeed then I have done my job, if they fail I have failed as a husband and a father.
I stay here not for myself but for them(my wife included), even though I struggle some days, it is more important for their happiness and well being than mine


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza, no one has to reconcile. Everyone is free to divorce. The original question was does staying make a guy a beta. I don't think so. I think, depending on the circumstances, it could make him a better man. 

I have not read the links you gave. I was supportive of MM until I read that her affair was with a student, and that she did not cut it off right away. I stopped being supportive then. In my no count opinion, if I were MM's husband, I could not reconcile. Firstly because it was with a student (massive power differential), and secondly because it continued so long and there was not complete truthfulness right away. Contrast that with a woman who has a ONS and immediately goes home to confess it to her husband with utter remorse and transparency, willing to comply with any demand he makes. Both cheating, vastly different circumstances all around.

My opinion is just my opinion. Nothing else. It has no weight, no bearing on anything, certainly not any kind of standard for anyone. Please, feel free to ignore.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

love=pain said:


> You are right I am humiliated from her actions some of the participants were friends so it is double.
> Furthermore I firmly believe that as the man the head of the house I am responsible for the success and failure of everyone in the house that I am supposed to be leading. If they succeed then I have done my job, if they fail I have failed as a husband and a father.
> I stay here not for myself but for them(my wife included), even though I struggle some days, it is more important for their happiness and well being than mine


You sound like a wonderful man, lp. I am sorry your goodness as a husband has not been appreciated by your wife. She does not know what she has in you that so many women would appreciate. I hope someday she will, or that some other woman will.

Lp, isn't there a difference between one betrayal, and multiples? When I imagine reconciliation, it is within some parameters. Multiple affairs would be beyond me to reconcile with. I realize others could do it, but honestly, it would be too much for me.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> You sound like a wonderful man, lp. I am sorry your goodness as a husband has not been appreciated by your wife. She does not know what she has in you that so many women would appreciate. I hope someday she will, or that some other woman will.
> 
> Lp, isn't there a difference between one betrayal, and multiples? When I imagine reconciliation, it is within some parameters. Multiple affairs would be beyond me to reconcile with. I realize others could do it, but honestly, it would be too much for me.


Well thanks but I am not the greatest lots of damage from long before her makes me crave solitude which can be tough for a spouse, so I am far from perfect.

And yes there were multiple infidelities but everything came out at once so how do you treat that? If she had been caught years ago then did it again that is a different circumstance, I don't know, we have talked about the struggles of trying to reconcile 10 years of your marriage and life. So I am treating everything as one and have drawn that line in the sand about anything new or anything from the past that she didn't confess to. Not a perfect scenario but it is what I have been dealt so we keep moving forward or trying to.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I took my Ex back 4 times.. Even the last time I was willing to take her back.. 

Everyone that has NOT had this happen to them, talks A LOT of SH!T, until it happens to them.. 

Then everyone's attitude changes..


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> He however did not have an affair.


Somehow you missed that he had two affairs long before she had her affair.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> The way people are editing within quotes may look pretty with all the nice colours, but makes it hard to pick out the key ideas and engage with them.


Is this to me Wazza? One thing I will say is, I do that to emphasize what I am talking about. It's an easy way to pick out points I want to make and not confuse my words with the quote.

If you really try to follow what was said in prior posts and then include those with my thoughts, it becomes a little clearer. It truly isn't brain surgery, but it takes a little effort to stay with it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Is this to me Wazza? One thing I will say is, I do that to emphasize what I am talking about. It's an easy way to pick out points I want to make and not confuse my words with the quote.
> 
> If you really try to follow what was said in prior posts and then include those with my thoughts, it becomes a little clearer. It truly isn't brain surgery, but it takes a little effort to stay with it.


In general I like to quote the posts I am engaging with. If all the content is coloured additions to quotes of previous posts, then the quote button doesn't pick them up, and I can only do this by some fairly intensive cut and paste.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> Wazza, no one has to reconcile. Everyone is free to divorce. The original question was does staying make a guy a beta. I don't think so. I think, depending on the circumstances, it could make him a better man.
> 
> I have not read the links you gave. I was supportive of MM until I read that her affair was with a student, and that she did not cut it off right away. I stopped being supportive then. In my no count opinion, if I were MM's husband, I could not reconcile. Firstly because it was with a student (massive power differential), and secondly because it continued so long and there was not complete truthfulness right away. Contrast that with a woman who has a ONS and immediately goes home to confess it to her husband with utter remorse and transparency, willing to comply with any demand he makes. Both cheating, vastly different circumstances all around.
> 
> My opinion is just my opinion. Nothing else. It has no weight, no bearing on anything, certainly not any kind of standard for anyone. Please, feel free to ignore.


I can ignore. But I could ignore all of TAM. I come here to engage with ideas in the hope it helps others. I wish desperately I had access to this sort of shared experience when I had to cope with my wife's affair.

It's hard to say "I think you are really wrong about this detail" and be positive. So I was trying to break it down with small, clear steps, and examples. Firstly to communicate my ideas, and secondly to better understand yours. 

Some of your ideas I strongly agree with, and this discussion was to me right on topic. Underpinning the notion of alpha, beta, etc, is the notion of a man having his own sense of worth....being secure to use your phrase. How you get there is the important bit, and that's where we disagree.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Wazza said:


> In general I like to quote the posts I am engaging with. If all the content is coloured additions to quotes of previous posts, then the quote button doesn't pick them up, and I can only do this by some fairly intensive cut and paste.


Yeah, you'd have to copy and paste. When in the Reply window, you can differentiate between the quote and post by seeing the command within brackets for color or quote and the member's username. 

It is more work, but it's doable.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, you'd have to copy and paste. When in the Reply window, you can differentiate between the quote and post by seeing the command within brackets for color or quote and the member's username.
> 
> It is more work, but it's doable.


Easy enough on a laptop. Painful on a mobile.

However your taste in colours is nice


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Somehow you missed that he had two affairs long before she had her affair.


Well, yes I did miss that. 

She didn't know about it though so they both deserved each other then didn't they?

Be that as it may, it does not alter my opinion regarding a WS needing to communicate their intent to leave a relationship BEFORE they betray their partner.

Being a less than "perfect" person (as we all are) does not give anyone the right to commit a deliberate, destructive act without fair and judicious warning beforehand.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Some of your ideas I strongly agree with, and this discussion was to me right on topic. Underpinning the notion of alpha, beta, etc, is the notion of a man having his own sense of worth....being secure to use your phrase.*How you get there is the important bit, and that's where we disagree.*


You seem secure to me, Wazza, at least based on what you said about doing the best for your family, according to what you think, regardless of what others say. I am curious as to how you think we disagree on getting there.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

I'd say check out Dogman's thread on his dad. Interesting in a way. 

Do what you are comfortable with, not what you can justify. You have a marriage of convenience now. Love, respect, trust- miss them coz they are gone forever. Pity is all there is in this marriage. Pity for yourself, your WW, your kids.


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