# Black. Everything All Black.



## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Hello,

About a month ago my wife and I had a big fight. I woke up find her gone with our 2.5 year old daughter.

She decided that the past six months have been garbage. She said she would "try hard" to work on us when I found a therapist for both myself and joint sessions.

Our first joint session was last Friday. My wife opened by telling me that things were over, full stop. She yelled at me like never before. Said that I have been emotionally abusive for the past year. From what she's said in therapy, it seems to be because when we fight I don't react in just the exact way she wants.

She's focused on some bad things, exaggerated others, and flat-out fabricated some. She's forgotten about good things.

When she left I thought that we would be together again. This was a hurdle for us. We've faced tough times before. Which is why the finality of this is yet another kick in the teeth.

I learned she has been telling her friends terrible things about me.

During therapy she said I was a "bad guy".

She apparently told the therapist (after I left) that she got out of line with her yelling at me. But she's yet to apologize to me and I don't think I should divulge that she told me.

I don't know what went wrong with my marriage, and I cannot fix it. I'm stuck in an apartment that I don't know if I can afford. For ten months. My car is ancient and may die at any time. We were hoping that it would make it to spring. I don't make much and don't have much in savings.

I have tried to end everything a couple times. I no longer will. It's not fair to my little girl. I've already informed my therapist about this.

I'm trying hard to keep things together for my daughter. She's all I have left.

I find doing almost anything a herculean task. I have near panic attacks when I'm in a store. Especially if I see kids' stuff. I can't believe I have to face Valentine's after being without my wife for Xmas and New Years.

It's all overwhelming and I break down into sobs when I see a picture of my little girl.

I don't know what to expect by posting here, but I could use a little help.

Thank you for your time.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Wow, thats alot to deal with!

The only advice I can offer is let it go you can't do any more if she isn't willing to try also.

Start exercising and takeing care of yourself. Staying healthy and sane will be your best option .

I know eaiser said than done!


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I agree with the poster above...that is a lot to deal with.

So... what is the thing you consider "the lie" in your life as your screen name states?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Thank you, chillymorn69. Thankfully martial arts, working out, and keeping my routine keeps me at a baseline sane. So there's that.

Emerging Buddhist: Eh? When deciding a username, I thought "empty", as that's all I feel inside. Which is not available, so I thought "Big Empty", but I believe that's an album name. And I'm short. Thus "Small Empty".


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

so where is she living now, does she work? are you able to see your daughter? are you expecting her to file?


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

What was her childhood like?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Lostinthougt: She's moved in with her mother in a large house on 50 acres. Yes, I've been able to see my daughter for 5-7 hours most weeks. I'm expecting overnights soon.

She's filed about a month ago. She promised to work on us, but then decided that there's no going back.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> I have tried to end everything a couple times. I no longer will. It's not fair to my little girl.


Empty, you say that your current deep depression is due to the "big fight" and your W's decision to leave. What brought on the prior occurrences of deep depression, when you felt suicidal? Were those incidents also triggered by a big fight with your W? That is, has your W started such fights throughout your marriage -- going back several years -- or is her current anger and unhappiness a situation that has developed only over the past year?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@TheLIttleEmpty, 

You know, I was just about to head out on a Sunday afternoon walk when I read your post, and I'll be honest with you--I *had *to reply because I'm concerned for you. It sounds like life is pretty dark for you right now and my guess is that you could use a couple people in your life to listen and care...so even though I'm an anonymous internet person, here I am! 

I've heard from friends and people that I'm a pretty good listener, and I've been in your shoes, so if you want to talk to someone who's been there and understands how dark this feels, I'll listen. In fact, one of my little rules is that no matter how horrid and dark your thoughts, just tell the truth and as long as we're talking, I won't judge. As I said, I've been there. You'll laugh, but if it weren't for my dog, Spuds, I wouldn't be here today. When my exH and I divorced the pain was so intense I wanted to die--I couldn't take it. Yeah I didn't want my kids to lose mom and dad too, but that wasn't what stayed my hand--it was my dog. She kept putting her head in my lap and kind of looking at me with sincere caring the way a pet can. So like I said, even if your thoughts aren't pretty I've been there--and I'm hoping maybe you'll find a little encouragement just because I'm here today talking to you, because apparently I survived! 

I think talking about what you really think and feel will be uncomfortable for some people to hear, and very likely will trigger other people--might cause a reaction or a memory of feeling that way themselves--but I think expressing it to "someone" really helps. It gets it off your chest. Now, bear in mind it doesn't have to be me...maybe you have a best friend who you can talk to about anything or have started a friendship even here on this forum. That's cool. Just know that there are people "out there" in the world who will sit down and take the time and listen and sympathize. You're not alone even though it really feels that way. 

You wrote that you have tried to end everything a couple times. I take it then that you've thought of how you would do it and have the items there to follow through on your plan...is that right? Do you still have those things right there with you? Have you thought about when you would like to do it? I hope you can understand how scary that is to hear, because you are very important. Your wife--well who can say what's in her mind right now? Maybe she's not thinking clearly! But you are direly important to your daughter. She LOVES you and needs you--you are her daddy and no matter how old she gets you always will be. She looks up to you and admires you and smiles when you enter the room because she loves you. 

So I'm here--let's talk. I don't want you to die. The thing that's nice here, though, is that most of the people you're talking to have been where you are now, and we've all survived. Your pain is very real--oh god the darkest and hardest! But we can find help and get through it, and I bet the folks here will really help.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Uptown: My depression is due to my marriage - who I am, my future - ending. My unknowingly causing it and not being able to rectify it.

To be more precise, both my wife and I have had depression a companion of ours through the years. You're referring to the suicidal tendencies and the debilitating depression of right now.

We've had a few fights, as every couple has. Two other big ones I can think of, but both were resolved relatively quickly and with level heads.

We've only been married for two years, But we've known each other for over a decade.

I was told by a (supposed) mutual friend that we've been "fighting for weeks" (we haven't). Then my wife told me things were bad for six months. Then when we were with the therapist she said it's been a year.

Also, I've asked at times through the past six months if things were good with us or if there was anything we should talk about. Her answer was "no".

When pressed upon that, she said that she had "convinced herself" that things would be OK. I mean, what am I supposed to do with that?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Your wife sounds like someone with a serious personality disorder, not just depression. 

But I'm more concerned about you. Do you have any friends you can talk to?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Affaircare: Thank you very much. I appreciate you making that sacrifice for me,

I understand how important pets are. I'm glad that your dog was there to pull you through. We were going to take in a specific cat days after this went down. I would take on in now but I have no idea where I'll live next year. And having a pet makes finding a new place to stay harder.

I don't have a best friend, to be honest. I've got people I'm friendly with. But I've always been a loner. I work and spend time with my family. I do it all for them.

I do have a few people that check in with me to see if I'm OK. Mostly people I train in martial arts with. But I still feel alone. These are people on the periphery. Not my family.

>You wrote that you have tried to end everything a couple times. I take it then that you've thought of how you would do it and have the items there to follow through on your plan...is that right?

Yes. I planned on how to do it again. My (supposed) last attempt was to be yesterday. I've got all the things still, they're never going away. The implements I used last time I threw out, but they're still here in the garbage.

>I hope you can understand how scary that is to hear, because you are very important.

Thank you, but I am not. My work would still go on. I have no debts and owe no one. I am important only to my daughter. But to be candid, that's ... temporal? Plenty of people have grown up with one parent. I feel I have important lessons to teach my daughter and I want to give her all my love and support. But whatever.

>So I'm here--let's talk. I don't want you to die. The thing that's nice here, though, is that most of the people you're talking to have been where you are now, and we've all survived. Your pain is very real--oh god the darkest and hardest! But we can find help and get through it, and I bet the folks here will really help. 

I appreciate that. I did an online search for "should I tell my therapist that I tried suicide" and I found so many people responding in the affirmative (though that's pretty damned self-selecting, no?), people that have moved on from that point. Survived. That made telling mine easier. And it made me feel a little less alone. If someone else can make it through this, maybe I can. Do I want to? No.

But as I said (and I told my therapist), I won't attempt suicide again. So if you truly have concern for me, take solace in that. I can't help my daughter if I'm dead.

Not saying I wouldn't welcome the end. But I won't cause it.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

tech-novelist: (A writer? Any way I can see your wares?) No. I'm a loner. I work and spend time with my family. That's who I am.

My one close online friend I already shared some generalities with and he's simply not able to deal with what I'm going through. He's a nice guy and all, but it's like "I'm going to root for you. Let me know how it all works out." Next best is my martial arts instructor. But I doubt he can offer anything other than an "I'm sorry". And I feel bad burdening people with my nonsense. Most people aren't equipped to handle this kind of thing. I'm planning on wearing a long sleeve shirt to class tomorrow. Not sure what I'll do.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

The next time you want to end your life remember this: children tend to blame themselves, and are very emotionally damaged when they have a parent who commits suicide. 

Also remember that the chance of your daughter committing suicide will go up if she has a parent who committed suicide. Suicide can begin to run in the family.

Does your counselor know of a support group you can attend, of people who have experienced what you are going through? Having people to talk to, who have helpful ideas will help you get through this.

The next time you want to harm yourself, if you don't have a friend to call, post here. If no one is here to post back to you, look up a number for a crisis help line you can call. The people who work for crisis help lines have that job for a reason: they care about people. They will help get you through the moment, and perhaps give you a phone number of a place you can get more help.

"This too shall pass." That sentence has helped me get through some dark times. It has helped me appreciate the good times too. Joy and sorrow don't last forever. They cycle in and out of our lives.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

ReturntoZero said:


> What was her childhood like?


Please answer this.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> The next time you want to end your life remember this: children tend to blame themselves, and are very emotionally damaged when they have a parent who commits suicide.
> 
> Also remember that the chance of your daughter committing suicide will go up if she has a parent who committed suicide. Suicide can begin to run in the family.


This is powerful. Thank you.



> Does your counselor know of a support group you can attend, of people who have experienced what you are going through?


No. And so far she's been pretty useless. The best she had was that if I feel like hurting myself again to run to the emergency room. But when my wife left and I thought there was hope I joined a men's group to work on myself. I've missed only one session. I may tell them.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

ReturntoZero: I don't see the point. But fine.

I don't know all that much. Her parents didn't have much money when she was young. They would drag her out to hike and camp. They said she complained about it a lot, though she doesn't remember that. It created a lifelong lover of camping. Her father always pushed her to do things that were beyond her comfort level. Not in a bad way, he just wanted her to be strong and capable (he succeeded). She wishes that her father showed her physical signs of affection (hugging and such). Her mother.... I don't remember much about her during my wife's childhood. She was cool and capable. But eventually she became fragile and a borderline hypochondriac.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> Emerging Buddhist: Eh? When deciding a username, I thought "empty", as that's all I feel inside. Which is not available, so I thought "Big Empty", but I believe that's an album name. And I'm short. Thus "Small Empty".


We all have subtleties in our lives that direct us... I simply noticed the capitalized letters and thought it interesting how they fell... and possibly a cause for your thinking of self-harm and how best to share my thoughts to help.

You make a difference in so many ways... yes, I do not know you but you have a daughter that proves that every single day whether you get to see her a lot now or not. 

As said before, your daughter will reflect on every decision you make as she gets older, it's your place to ensure you give her the best reflections possible... my children made every painful path worth every step.

Please also think about how healthy you need to be to get to see your daughter, that is something every court looks to and if your wife is truly done, places you on an equal playing field for custody and visitation.

Do no harm to yourself or others, you are needed.

When you are feeling low in yourself... go volunteer.

Many suffer in this world and if you share your time with those who may suffer as well you will feel an incredible purpose knowing your efforts made a difference in someone else's life, adding value to yours.

You have already made a difference today in your life just being here with us... :smile2:


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> ReturntoZero: I don't see the point. But fine.
> 
> I don't know all that much. Her parents didn't have much money when she was young. They would drag her out to hike and camp. They said she complained about it a lot, though she doesn't remember that. It created a lifelong lover of camping. Her father always pushed her to do things that were beyond her comfort level. Not in a bad way, he just wanted her to be strong and capable (he succeeded). She wishes that her father showed her physical signs of affection (hugging and such). Her mother.... I don't remember much about her during my wife's childhood. She was cool and capable. But eventually she became fragile and a borderline hypochondriac.


That's not a huge amount of information, but it sounds dysfunctional - perhaps in a major way.

People who grow up in loveless environments are angry. Those who were supposed to love them didn't and they are hopping mad inside about it. This manifests itself in adult relationships, as they take out that anger on those closest to them. It also may manifest itself in addictive behaviors, as these folks attempt to self-soothe. Alcohol addiction, gambling, financial promiscuity, physical promiscuity, all included.

I'm telling you this for a reason. This is likely what you're up against and you're blaming yourself for all of it.

Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?

What is her role in this?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> Affaircare: Thank you very much. I appreciate you making that sacrifice for me


 @TheLIttleEmpty it's truly no sacrifice--you're a fellow human being same as me. 



> I understand how important pets are. I'm glad that your dog was there to pull you through. We were going to take in a specific cat days after this went down. I would take on in now but I have no idea where I'll live next year. And having a pet makes finding a new place to stay harder.


In my life I've had three dogs--all three saved my life in their own ways. Pets can be like that. But I do hear what you're saying that taking on a pet is a lifelong responsibility and so much is up-in-the-air for you that the timing is not great. I'm glad you take it responsibly though and think of the pet as well as yourself. See? You have shades of "good guy" to you! 



> I don't have a best friend, to be honest. I've got people I'm friendly with. But I've always been a loner. I work and spend time with my family. I do it all for them.


Sounds like you're a bit of a wolf, and maybe an introvert. Did you have more friends in high school/college and then to some degree give that up for the marriage? One thing I found for myself was that I have a medium friendly nature but don't get very close to many people AT ALL--and many of my lifelong friends I gave up, to some degree, to appease my exH and keep the peace. Thus, like you, I went to work and spent time at home with the family and that's it...my friendly side was kind of squashed. 

Maybe you could let a little bit of your old self out again?



> I do have a few people that check in with me to see if I'm OK. Mostly people I train in martial arts with. But I still feel alone. These are people on the periphery. Not my family.


Yeah and they care, but it's not the same. Family is love, even sometimes when family is crazy and arguing and hard to take, underneath it is caring about each other enough to share toothpaste and toilet paper, right? 

What martial arts do you do?

Is there one person who is maybe a better friend than the others or one whom you've thought: "Oh you know I'd like to be friends with XYZ"? If you don't have friends now, maybe this is the time to make a couple. 



> _You wrote that you have tried to end everything a couple times. I take it then that you've thought of how you would do it and have the items there to follow through on your plan...is that right?_
> 
> Yes. I planned on how to do it again. My (supposed) last attempt was to be yesterday. I've got all the things still, they're never going away. The implements I used last time I threw out, but they're still here in the garbage.


So may I make a request? There are numerous ways I person could take their own life--everything from violently to going to sleep with pills. Right now, with your mind in a dark place and deep sorrow in your heart, it would be easy to be up at night, alone, in the dark, and see the items you were going to use, and just think "Why not?" May I request that whatever the items are, that you remove them from your immediate, day-to-day site and sort of store them somewhere hard to get at? 

I'll give you an example. If you were thinking of taking pills...and you were thinking of using a prescription med so that you can't really get rid of it...put the pills in a place that's further away, not in plain site, and you have to be deliberate to get to them, such as putting them in a safe or in a box in the garage or something. If it's a weapon--give the weapon to a family member for a few days and just ask if they'd mind storing it for you for a week or two. My point being, get rid of them if you can so they are out of sight, and if you can't absolutely get rid of them, make it HARD to get to them. 

Would you consider that, please? 



> _I hope you can understand how scary that is to hear, because you are very important._
> 
> Thank you, but I am not. My work would still go on. I have no debts and owe no one. I am important only to my daughter. But to be candid, that's ... temporal? Plenty of people have grown up with one parent. I feel I have important lessons to teach my daughter and I want to give her all my love and support. But whatever.


Did you know that my husband just died recently? He was ill, but even though we knew it was coming, it was still a surprise. And you know what happened? The world kept turning. Time didn't stop. Kids kept growing. I think *I* was kind of frozen in time, but all around me everything else kept happening. But that's because our worth is not measured in whether or not our work goes on or we owe someone. 

You know what I think makes you important? The way you care about people, including yourself. The way you ask questions. The memories you make with the people you love. The way you live your life. Think about the people in your own life who are important to you. Are they important because they don't owe anyone or because they couldn't be replaced at work? Nah! They are important because they spent time with you and listened to you and acted in a way that showed care and kindness. 

So I get it--right now you feel like the dirt under the worm under your shoe. The feeling clouds the truth. 



> _So I'm here--let's talk. I don't want you to die. The thing that's nice here, though, is that most of the people you're talking to have been where you are now, and we've all survived. Your pain is very real--oh god the darkest and hardest! But we can find help and get through it, and I bet the folks here will really help. _
> 
> I appreciate that. I did an online search for "should I tell my therapist that I tried suicide" and I found so many people responding in the affirmative (though that's pretty damned self-selecting, no?), people that have moved on from that point. Survived. That made telling mine easier. And it made me feel a little less alone. If someone else can make it through this, maybe I can. Do I want to? No.
> 
> ...


Well I'm glad you told your therapist but her "well just go to the ER" approach I find less than adequate! SMH I'm glad it made you feel a little less alone, because here we all are--spending time talking and writing because we're living proof that you aren't alone. We all survived these dark days. Is it the worst pain in the world? HECK YES! Would you do anything to make the pain stop? Maybe. This is why I make the request I make. Move the stuff to somewhere harder to get to. And meanwhile as someone ever so wisely suggested, before you do something at least come here and post and see if there isn't someone up who'd be willing to talk. 

Sooo...what's the plan for today?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Thank you Emerging Buddhist, ReturntoZero, and Affaircare. That was all such great stuff. I am very thankful. I will get back to this. I promise.

I'm at work right now (It's ~1330 local time) and my martial arts class is tonight. I way have time to write after, but I can't promise it.

Tuesday and Wednesday are my parenting classes (automatic Court order). Then Thursday is martial arts again. Friday is the therapist.

So if I don't respond right away, do not worry.

Affaircare: The items, the main items, are already out of the way. One I destroyed. I will try to think of a way to make them less accessible.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Emerging Buddhist: Just realized that I screwed up the camel case in my name and that's what you were referring to. Sorry, I've not been good braining as of late.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> No. And so far she's been pretty useless. The best she had was that if I feel like hurting myself again to run to the emergency room. But when my wife left and I thought there was hope I joined a men's group to work on myself. I've missed only one session. I may tell them.


Therapists are supposed to help. Maybe not immediately, but there is nothing wrong or rude in choosing to try someone else if you do not feel an empathy/connection with the one you have. Do you have that option? Perhaps you might feel better able to relate to a man?

And yes, you should tell your man's group. The first time may feel very uncomfortable, but it will get easier each time that you open up to them. Sometimes sharing our pain with others can feel very one-sided - but it is one of the ways that we draw closest to each other. And that connection flows in both directions.

I really do believe that we need to let the pain out of ourselves, or else it swamps us. Leaching out the light. Talking is one of the best ways I know. 

You still have many memories to make with your daughter - don't cheat her of them. Thoughts and wishes to you.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

ReturntoZero said:


> It also may manifest itself in addictive behaviors, as these folks attempt to self-soothe. Alcohol addiction, gambling, financial promiscuity, physical promiscuity, all included.


She often jokes that she's not a lush but she's really a lush. There could be truth in what you say.



> I'm telling you this for a reason. This is likely what you're up against and you're blaming yourself for all of it.
> 
> Doesn't that seem a bit harsh?
> 
> What is her role in this?


Her role? I'm in no way saying she was perfect. I felt like she was getting more demanding of attention, almost manipulative on a small scale. I also wondered if there was someone else. Which I chided myself for. When I asked her if things were OK with us or if there was something I could do for her or for us, she said "no" and said things were fine. She hid from me that there were issues and didn't try to work things out.

Really she has this post hoc story about how I'm this mustache-twirling villain. It's like something switched in her brain and she's someone else. I've wondered if someone is whispering venom in her ear.

I am blaming myself. My family is everything to me. And clearly I've failed them. I did some things wrong in the marriage, no question. But I also failed my wife in helping to figure out/fix/address whatever issues she had. She says that I hurt her. That idea is repugnant to a degree I can't express.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> I'm glad you take it responsibly though and think of the pet as well as yourself. See? You have shades of "good guy" to you!


I *am* a good guy. Which is why her out of the blue labeling me a "bad guy" was yet another kick in the teeth (I've lost count). Ironically I was in a chat room recently and helped a woman out when she was freaking out over her brother attempting suicide. Who'd have thunk it?



> Sounds like you're a bit of a wolf, and maybe an introvert.


Oh, I am very much an introvert.



> Did you have more friends in high school/college and then to some degree give that up for the marriage? One thing I found for myself was that I have a medium friendly nature but don't get very close to many people AT ALL--and many of my lifelong friends I gave up, to some degree, to appease my exH and keep the peace. Thus, like you, I went to work and spent time at home with the family and that's it...my friendly side was kind of squashed.


I've always given up my friends for my marriage. We are very similar in this regard. I don't let many people get close to me at all.



> What martial arts do you do?


I've done a lot of different styles through the years. I've been sticking with bando. Pretty obscure in the US. Our school sticks strictly to the boar branch.



> If you don't have friends now, maybe this is the time to make a couple.


I'm terrible at making friends, but I've been going to a few Meetups. It's been kind of nice being around people. Perhaps something will come of this.



> So may I make a request? <snip>


As I mentioned earlier, in case you missed it, I will honor your kind request.



> Did you know that my husband just died recently? He was ill, but even though we knew it was coming, it was still a surprise.


That's just terrible. You have my deepest condolences. And yes, knowing that death is around the corner for someone you love doesn't take the sting out of it when it comes.



> You know what I think makes you important? The way you care about people, including yourself. The way you ask questions. The memories you make with the people you love. The way you live your life. Think about the people in your own life who are important to you. Are they important because they don't owe anyone or because they couldn't be replaced at work? Nah! They are important because they spent time with you and listened to you and acted in a way that showed care and kindness.


I am going to print this out and hang it up.



> Sooo...what's the plan for today?


This week is filled with stuff. I am going to have to force myself to one-step-at-a-time e-mail a lawyer and my CPA. Hopefully I can just send him my W2 and I won't have to be in the same room with (to be ex)wife.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> She often jokes that she's not a lush but she's really a lush. There could be truth in what you say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How is it possible to "fail" at helping someone with something you didn't even know you were up against?

I'll attempt to be brief. Please stay with me if this seems obtuse:

I believe I walked in the shoes you are now in. I'm a bit of a caretaker. My wife always intrigued me. She's got crazy 'good' energy, chatty, beautiful, capable, etc. What could go wrong?

Well, inside, she seems wired the same as yours. The closer I got to her the harder she pushed away.

What to do? Argue! There's the ticket, eh? SHOW her how this wasn't what I signed up for! Yes, what a GREAT strategy!

Basically, by attempting to "reason" with someone like this, you place lower value on YOU. For you see, you are trying to "convince" her of your inherent goodness/righteousness, whatever.

How does that turn out? Of course, you get the smack down. Then you get mad. Round and round the Drama Triangle you race... basically until you're both exhausted and simply hating each other.

You've gotten the smack down now. How you manage this will determine your future and it "may" determine hers.

What you simply must do is get right with you. That can be done in IC or here or with some combination of the two. She'll never love you the way you wish if you don't love you first.

Let me let you in on another little secret.

If you start loving yourself, you won't much care if she does or not.

If that sounds like a position of strength, it's because it IS.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

ReturntoZero said:


> How is it possible to "fail" at helping someone with something you didn't even know you were up against?


You are right. But I want to push back and say that maybe I could have seen something. Bah. Typing that out I realize it's foolish.



> That can be done in IC or here or with some combination of the two.


Sorry, what is "IC"?



> What to do? Argue!


Yeah, but we didn't argue much at all. Arguments were rare. If there was arguing I could have seen this coming.



> If you start loving yourself, you won't much care if she does or not.


I'm pretty OK. I'm a good guy, I work hard. I'm healthy and in good shape. I have the future of nothing in front of me. A void of nothing but the candle of my daughter. And the single most important thing to me I f'ed up. We were ideal for each other. OK, this is going to sound stupidly melodramatic, but I'm going to be a drone until I die. I don't even like cooking just for myself. My value is to my family.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> I have the future of nothing in front of me. *A void of nothing but the candle of my daughter*. And the single most important thing to me I f'ed up. We were ideal for each other. OK, this is going to sound stupidly melodramatic, but *I'm going to be a drone until I die. I don't even like cooking just for myself. My value is to my family.*


Did you believe all the bolded before your wife left you? If the answer is "no" then you are just in a deep situational depression, which is completely understandable. (I'm not a licensed counselor, just a person who has experience betrayal, read a whole lot about it and psychology, and who has had counseling for situational depression.)

If you already had no life other than your family before she left, could be that you are codependent. It is not always a virtue or even healthy to have no personal interests outside of a couple of specific people in one's life. Everyone needs to have something that is not a person that interests them. Codependent people are a drag on those around them, much less on themselves. You can learn tools on how to develop a meaningful life for yourself.

A good book to read about it is Codependent No More.

Are you on antidepressants? They will help take the edge off. When things settle down you can get off them. 

IC = Individual Counseling


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Araucaria said:


> Did you believe all the bolded before your wife left you? If the answer is "no" then you are just in a deep situational depression, which is completely understandable. (I'm not a licensed counselor, just a person who has experience betrayal, read a whole lot about it and psychology, and who has had counseling for situational depression.)
> 
> If you already had no life other than your family before she left, could be that you are codependent. It is not always a virtue or even healthy to have no personal interests outside of a couple of specific people in one's life. Everyone needs to have something that is not a person that interests them. Codependent people are a drag on those around them, much less on themselves. You can learn tools on how to develop a meaningful life for yourself.
> 
> ...


Great answer. Saved me some time. I'll wait for his next answer.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> You are right. But I want to push back and say that maybe I could have seen something. Bah. Typing that out I realize it's foolish.


But, i still need to chime in on this one.

IF this is the situation in your relationship, it means you are in a rather primitive power struggle. No, you didn't ask for it, but there it is. What you must figure out is how to win.

If you want her back, she will not feel safe in relationship with you unless she concludes (primitively and often subconsciously) that you are emotionally stronger than her.

Are you?

Your last paragraph doesn't sound that way. BUT... emotional strength isn't static. You can develop it. I know of what I speak, because my wife was impossible until I cracked that particular code.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Did you believe all the bolded before your wife left you? If the answer is "no" then you are just in a deep situational depression, which is completely understandable. (I'm not a licensed counselor, just a person who has experience betrayal, read a whole lot about it and psychology, and who has had counseling for situational depression.)


No, life was not a void before she left. Life was good and getting better. I was proud of my family. I thought we were happy.

No, I was not a drone before she left.

Yes, I never enjoyed cooking just for myself.

Yes, I always wanted a family and I feel that my value is found in being there for them.



> If you already had no life other than your family before she left, could be that you are codependent.


Well, I do some martial arts training. I lift weights. I write. I do some things by myself.



> A good book to read about it is Codependent No More.


I don't think it's applicable but I will buy it.



> Are you on antidepressants? They will help take the edge off. When things settle down you can get off them.


No. I thought my therapist would've said something about them, but she's said nothing.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

ReturntoZero: It's over between us. She's told me flat out. I do want to fix things. But I clearly cannot. I can't focus on getting her back. That will lead me back to bad things, I fear.

Also, it's not about emotional strength with her. She's always seen me as her rock, and has thanked me for it. She claims that I was "emotionally abusive". Which I was not.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Have an appointment with a new therapist this coming Tuesday.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Unless she is an MD Psychiatrist, she cannot prescribe antidepressants, she can only recommend them.

Can you make an appointment with your doctor and tell him/her what you have been going through and how you feel? Your Dr. will know if you should be on ADs. Some ADs keep you awake, or make you sleepy, so make sure that you have a follow-up appointment to let the doc know of any side effects. The one I was given kept me awake, so I was prescribed a sleeping pill to counter act that. I found that taking only a half of the sleeping pill was enough to keep me asleep until morning.

I'm so glad you are staying on this forum and keeping in contact with real people. There are many more people reading your thread than are actually responding to you. Don't give in to the self destructive thoughts. Eventually you will feel better, if you learn some new life coping skills, get meds if you need them, etc.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> ReturntoZero: It's over between us. She's told me flat out. I do want to fix things. But I clearly cannot. I can't focus on getting her back. That will lead me back to bad things, I fear.
> 
> Also, it's not about emotional strength with her. She's always seen me as her rock, and has thanked me for it. She claims that I was "emotionally abusive". Which I was not.


The worst thing you could do if you want her back is to work to "focus" on getting her back.

Improve yourself, for yourself - and for your child.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria: I will call and tell her. Not sure what day. But soon.

Thank you.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> No, life was not a void before she left. Life was good and getting better. I was proud of my family. I thought we were happy.
> 
> No, I was not a drone before she left.
> Were you happy about yourself? Did you have anything to look forward to that did not have anything to do with your family? It is wonderful that you were so family centered, however when that went away, you were left with a huge hole. Find some other interests, and keep them high on your list of priorities, even if you have a family again.
> ...


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Were you happy about yourself?


I'm OK.



> Did you have anything to look forward to that did not have anything to do with your family?


Other than getting a book out? (To sell) No.



> Are you eating, even if you aren't cooking it yourself?


I spent about a week and a half eating half a chicken breast a day (or the equivalent). I'm back to eating, just smaller amounts.



> Have you read Hold On To Your Nuts?


No. But my values are pretty straightforward. Family comes first (after my health, ironically). Honesty. Forthrightness.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> I *am* a good guy. Which is why her out of the blue labeling me a "bad guy" was yet another kick in the teeth (I've lost count). Ironically I was in a chat room recently and helped a woman out when she was freaking out over her brother attempting suicide. Who'd have thunk it?


Are you aware that this whole thing is all about HER and not about YOU? Now, I'm not "assigning blame" here so much as pointing out to you that we've fairly established that you're a decent fellow and have a pretty good outlook and priorities...okay maybe a LITTLE heavy on family and forgetting to stay an individual, but that's correctable especially as your children get older. The kind of things that seem to be going on with you are within reason and understandable--you are depressed because something depressing ACTUALLY HAPPENED not because you're mentally ill (for example). But the kinds of things that seem to be coming from her are not within reason or understandable--she's lying and re-writing reality and blameshifting (for example). Thus, something within her was a ticking time bomb, and since you didn't know the time bomb was inside her, there was nothing you could do except be hit by the shrapnel.

So I have a story to tell you. When a person is raped, one of the first things they often do is completely change the way they dress...or completely change the way they go to work, etc. The reason they do this is because if they were raped because they wore skin-tight clothes, then they can protect themselves from ever having that happen again by wearing baggy clothes (in their head). Now you and I could sit back and realize that is not accurate thinking--the rape occurred because of something being messed up in the rapist--NOT because of clothes! But to the person who was raped, it is an attempt to get their own life back under control. They were violated. Their literal life was at the mercy of someone else and they had no control over what happened to their own body. So they want to avoid being hurt and get their life back under their own control. 

In a freaky way, it's similar for you. You have been HORRIBLY hurt. You are looking for ways to make sure that never happens to you again--it hurt so much. So you look at yourself and things you can change and things over which you have control in an attempt to get your own life back to where you can protect yourself. This was not about YOU...it was about her. Something in her is messed up and because of that, she harmed you and the one you love (your daughter). Now I'm not saying that tight clothes are good or bad--and I'm not saying that you were perfect in your marriage. It won't hurt to look at yourself and see if you can be a better man. BUT I AM saying that you had not control over the damage that was done to you. 



> Oh, I am very much an introvert.


And you realize that being an introvert is good, right? All the best, most fun, smartest people are introverts (and if any of you extroverts protest I can prove it! LOL). If you like to stay home and it is not harmful for you to do so, then make your home into YOUR HAVEN. Change up the colors. Get a new bed. Arrange your home so that it comforts you. And embrace your inner nerdiness. Let your geek flag fly and watch Firefly...and some day you'll attend a ComicCon and meet some geek girl! 

My point here is that being who you are is good. Be that guy...fully. 



> I've always given up my friends for my marriage. We are very similar in this regard. I don't let many people get close to me at all.


So you realize this is an area where we have to grow as people, then, right? I'm surely not a closed book here on TAM but I don't let many people close AT ALL...and yet I know this is something I need to learn better. If being open is hard for you, you can practice at it with someone who's a little trustworthy--open a little. Then a little more. Take the time to build enough trust to open a little more. Just keep practicing. 



> I've done a lot of different styles through the years. I've been sticking with bando. Pretty obscure in the US. Our school sticks strictly to the boar branch.


I have no idea what this is--got a link to share that would explain it?



> I'm terrible at making friends, but I've been going to a few Meetups. It's been kind of nice being around people. Perhaps something will come of this.


So here's what I did. I thought to myself "What do I like to do?" I like coffee myself...so I started going to a local coffee shop, and I'd order my usual and sit in the shop while I drank it. I read a book while I drank my coffee, because they had a book swap at the coffee place I liked. I said hello to the barista. Then I started to notice "the regulars" and right off the bat we both liked coffee. So I said "hi" to a regular and asked if they had read XYZ book. 

I also like yoga--or I had always liked it and wanted to try it and my exH didn't want me to go and kept throwing up obstacles. So by golly I gave yoga a try! Now that was freaky scary--walking into a new class with no idea what I was doing--but I took a deep breath and did it. I found I enjoyed it! And there was a guy in the class who was also a coffee regular! HUZZAH we had two things in common. 

You get the drift, right? I'm not great at making friends either but you don't really have to be Just do things you yourself like ... or things you want to do be never got around to ... or things your ex would never let you do. Go give it a try and I'm not saying you'll hit it off with someone, but worst case scenario you get to do something you like, and best case scenario you meet people who like stuff you do too and you can practice being a friend. 



> As I mentioned earlier, in case you missed it, I will honor your kind request.


Thank you. I appreciate that. 



> That's just terrible. You have my deepest condolences. And yes, knowing that death is around the corner for someone you love doesn't take the sting out of it when it comes.


Thank you again. I'm coming to terms with it--you know how it is: up and down.  But that wasn't the important part. The important part was that you probably have no idea how important you are. I do totally get that it feels like you're not, but here we are all internet strangers and we care. I guarantee you there are people who know you better who care deeply and you may not even know it. 



> I am going to print this out and hang it up.


Cool--remind yourself of who you are. 



> This week is filled with stuff. I am going to have to force myself to one-step-at-a-time e-mail a lawyer and my CPA. Hopefully I can just send him my W2 and I won't have to be in the same room with (to be ex)wife.


You know, if you look at it like "OMG I have all this stuff to do!" it feels pretty overwhelming and exhausting. So pick one thing that day and do it that day. Then do one more thing the next day. Maybe today is emailing one lawyer--cool, get that done and count yourself as "job well done" for that day. Then tomorrow you email another. The next day compare the two...etc. 

I can't say it enough--you're actually doing pretty well. If you hate to cook, here's my trick: soup. It's easy...it's more or less a serving for today and tomorrow...it's warm...it fills the tummy...it's got some nutrition...you can swallow it past the lump in your throat.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> Are you aware that this whole thing is all about HER and not about YOU? Now, I'm not "assigning blame" here so much as pointing out to you that we've fairly established that you're a decent fellow and have a pretty good outlook and priorities...okay maybe a LITTLE heavy on family and forgetting to stay an individual, but that's correctable especially as your children get older. The kind of things that seem to be going on with you are within reason and understandable--you are depressed because something depressing ACTUALLY HAPPENED not because you're mentally ill (for example). But the kinds of things that seem to be coming from her are not within reason or understandable--she's lying and re-writing reality and blameshifting (for example). Thus, something within her was a ticking time bomb, and since you didn't know the time bomb was inside her, there was nothing you could do except be hit by the shrapnel.


This is good to read. Ya know, I feel like those helping me here are ... I feel it's like a debate. Or you're helping me to sculpt myself. Reading an excellent point or correction removes a chunk that is suffocating me.



> So I have a story to tell you. When a person is raped, one of the first things they often do is completely change the way they dress...or completely change the way they go to work, etc. The reason they do this is because if they were raped because they wore skin-tight clothes, then they can protect themselves from ever having that happen again by wearing baggy clothes (in their head). Now you and I could sit back and realize that is not accurate thinking--the rape occurred because of something being messed up in the rapist--NOT because of clothes! But to the person who was raped, it is an attempt to get their own life back under control. They were violated. Their literal life was at the mercy of someone else and they had no control over what happened to their own body. So they want to avoid being hurt and get their life back under their own control.


That makes sense. Lucky items are the same way. "This good thing happened when I was with X." Our minds seek reasons, patterns, connections.



> In a freaky way, it's similar for you. You have been HORRIBLY hurt. You are looking for ways to make sure that never happens to you again--it hurt so much. So you look at yourself and things you can change and things over which you have control in an attempt to get your own life back to where you can protect yourself. This was not about YOU...it was about her. Something in her is messed up and because of that, she harmed you and the one you love (your daughter). Now I'm not saying that tight clothes are good or bad--and I'm not saying that you were perfect in your marriage. It won't hurt to look at yourself and see if you can be a better man. BUT I AM saying that you had not control over the damage that was done to you.


Yes, you're right. And she could have been so much less destructive and hurtful in how she went about things. Or honest. I've not brought up how cruel she was during our group session.

And you realize that being an introvert is good, right? All the best, most fun, smartest people are introverts (and if any of you extroverts protest I can prove it! LOL). If you like to stay home and it is not harmful for you to do so, then make your home into YOUR HAVEN. Change up the colors. Get a new bed. Arrange your home so that it comforts you. And embrace your inner nerdiness. Let your geek flag fly and watch Firefly...and some day you'll attend a ComicCon and meet some geek girl! 

My point here is that being who you are is good. Be that guy...fully. 



> I have no idea what this is--got a link to share that would explain it?


Specific to the boar, though brief:
https://americanbandoassociation.com/bando-systems/animal-systems/boar/

More general, history:
Bando: The Styles of Burmese Martial Arts | FIGHTLAND

Not strictly a boarman, but a very long time bando practitioner, Bob Maxwell is the real deal. One of his vids:





I've not found much online specific to the boar. This is the best I can do for you.



> So here's what I did. I thought to myself "What do I like to do?" <snip>


During one of my ... lucid moments I thought "what would one of those self-improvement guru types do in my situation?" I do get to do some rewriting/rebuilding/whatever. The best I have is to double down on writing. Thing is that I've been "allowed" by her to do or try whatever I wanted, more or less. We didn't hold each other back like that. There's one big hike that's the sole thing on my bucket list. That's about it.

I'll try to keep going to some Meetups. Of course I don't have infinite time. But I can flow with that after things get moving. And when the parenting plan is in place. Went to the first of two automatic Court ordered parenting classes tonight. Some decent bits. The people running it are nice. I have no doubt this helps an awful lot of kids.



> You know, if you look at it like "OMG I have all this stuff to do!" it feels pretty overwhelming and exhausting. So pick one thing that day and do it that day. Then do one more thing the next day. Maybe today is emailing one lawyer--cool, get that done and count yourself as "job well done" for that day. Then tomorrow you email another. The next day compare the two...etc.


I can do this.



> I can't say it enough--you're actually doing pretty well.


That's kind of you to say. Don't feel it. I mean, I ruminate on death a little less. Not sure if the borderline panic attacks have changed in frequency or severity.



> If you hate to cook, here's my trick: soup. It's easy...it's more or less a serving for today and tomorrow...it's warm...it fills the tummy...it's got some nutrition...you can swallow it past the lump in your throat.


That's excellent advice. I made some about a month ago. Making bone broth is strangely soothing. I should do it again soon.

I've been paleo-ish since '11. And now I'm keto most of the time. So thankfully I tend to cook in bulk(ish). Lots of meat at once.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Affaircare said:


> Are you aware that this whole thing is all about HER and not about YOU? Now, I'm not "assigning blame" here so much as pointing out to you that we've fairly established that you're a decent fellow and have a pretty good outlook and priorities...okay maybe a LITTLE heavy on family and forgetting to stay an individual, but that's correctable especially as your children get older. The kind of things that seem to be going on with you are within reason and understandable--you are depressed because something depressing ACTUALLY HAPPENED not because you're mentally ill (for example). But the kinds of things that seem to be coming from her are not within reason or understandable--she's lying and re-writing reality and blameshifting (for example). Thus, something within her was a ticking time bomb, and since you didn't know the time bomb was inside her, there was nothing you could do except be hit by the shrapnel.
> 
> So I have a story to tell you. When a person is raped, one of the first things they often do is completely change the way they dress...or completely change the way they go to work, etc. The reason they do this is because if they were raped because they wore skin-tight clothes, then they can protect themselves from ever having that happen again by wearing baggy clothes (in their head). Now you and I could sit back and realize that is not accurate thinking--the rape occurred because of something being messed up in the rapist--NOT because of clothes! But to the person who was raped, it is an attempt to get their own life back under control. They were violated. Their literal life was at the mercy of someone else and they had no control over what happened to their own body. So they want to avoid being hurt and get their life back under their own control.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> This is good to read. Ya know, I feel like those helping me here are ... I feel it's like a debate. Or you're helping me to sculpt myself. Reading an excellent point or correction removes a chunk that is suffocating me.


Yes sir, that's the general idea: namely to get you out from under the pile of :bsflag: that's being spewed about you, and out into reality. Are you a saint? Probably not. Was it worth destroying a family over? HELL NO. Let's get to something closer to the truth. 



> Yes, you're right. And she could have been so much less destructive and hurtful in how she went about things. Or honest. I've not brought up how cruel she was during our group session.


Unfortunately, that level of cruelty is fairly typical with people who are actively cheating or actively thinking about cheating. See...no marriage is perfect. Every one has some rough patches, etc. and yet no rough patch is truly worthy of the nuclear bombing of a spouse or family. However, the fact is that many people would rather justify their bad behavior than to have to look at themselves and just be honest and say they want to do the wrong thing. 



> Specific to the boar, though brief: <snip>
> 
> More general, history: <snip>
> 
> ...


Thanks this works--it's interesting. Looks kind of rough, but I suspect that sort of intensity is good for ya right now. 



> During one of my ... lucid moments I thought "what would one of those self-improvement guru types do in my situation?" I do get to do some rewriting/rebuilding/whatever. The best I have is to double down on writing. Thing is that I've been "allowed" by her to do or try whatever I wanted, more or less. We didn't hold each other back like that. There's one big hike that's the sole thing on my bucket list. That's about it.


Well on the one hand, maybe you could think about an individual bucket list...add some stuff to it that you've always wanted to do just because. On the other hand, life isn't always checking stuff off a list either or entertaining yourself. When I was divorcing I went for "peace in my home" as one of my "goals" and that was actually pretty quiet and still. When compared to all the drama with my ex, it was nice but there really wasn't a lot "happening" if you get my drift. 

So yep--you can work on improving yourself each day but by the same token sometimes the best thing you can do is just be who you REALLY ARE and start to like that guy. 



> I'll try to keep going to some Meetups. Of course I don't have infinite time. But I can flow with that after things get moving. And when the parenting plan is in place. Went to the first of two automatic Court ordered parenting classes tonight. Some decent bits. The people running it are nice. I have no doubt this helps an awful lot of kids.


You know, you don't have to do Meetups. You could go to car shows instead. Or shooting ranges. Or .... you tell me! LOL My point is that you pick something you find interesting if anything. I like all of the above and hiking and I don't go with others. PFFFFT. I go cuz I like to go! Pick something you like and chances are there will be other people there who also like the same thing. 



> I can do this.


Yep you can. And it's just like any other fear. Look I get that big tough manly men don't like thinking they're afraid, but being single these days can be scary. Being a single dad can be scary. Being a single dad TO A DAUGHTER can be scary. Not having friends can be scary...not that "shaking like a leaf" fear, but the one that feels hurt and vulnerable. UGH! So instead of looking at the huge mountain (which is just way too much) don't turn...don't avoid it or deny it...just look it right in the eye and look at the ONE next step. One step--heck one step is doable. Then in a little while you might be able to look a couple steps down the road, then a few blocks, then a mile...and so on. 



> That's kind of you to say. Don't feel it. I mean, I ruminate on death a little less. Not sure if the borderline panic attacks have changed in frequency or severity.


You've heard of PTSD, right? When this bomb blew up your family, it was a trauma whether you recognized it or not...and you weren't the only one traumatized! But dealing with it is pretty similar to dealing with PTSD. There's tons of triggers--things that remind you and set you off. It can be crazy stuff too--like hearing a certain sound or smelling a certain smell or seeing something out of the side of your eye that just reminds you--and suddenly you're right back there at the moment the bomb dropped, mourning that again. Just like PTSD it takes a little time for the triggers to lessen (to a degree) and lots of time it takes a little intention to face the triggers and reclaim them. 

As an example, when I discovered my ex cheating I was devastated...a mess...and the song from the Righteous Brothers "Unchained Melody" just would drop me to my knees. It was horrible. So one night I got a box of tissues and a blanket and I sat there and listened to it 50 times in a row. The first dozen or so times were like tearing my own heart out, but gradually it hurt a little less, and by the 40's it was a song with deep meaning. By the 50's I could listen to it again, because I wanted to reclaim that song FOR ME and not have it be a constant reminder. 

So yep you're going to get that. Every so often, through no fault of your own, some "thing" will come along and trigger ya and remind you of this horrible hurt, and you'll have a panic attack. Hopefully it helps to know that's fairly "normal" and that it will get better...and if you want, for some of the things, you can reclaim them--although it's not easy. Another tip that really helps me, at least, is to ask myself "Well where am I right now?" In other words, when you're in the middle of a panic attack, catch yourself and ask, "Where am I right this minute?" and usually being present in the "here-and-now" can help soothe it. 



> That's excellent advice. I made some about a month ago. Making bone broth is strangely soothing. I should do it again soon.
> 
> I've been paleo-ish since '11. And now I'm keto most of the time. So thankfully I tend to cook in bulk(ish). Lots of meat at once.


Okay so here is my favorite soup recipe: Italian Sausage Soup Recipe - Allrecipes.com ...the only trick for keto may be Northern Beans. They add a lot to the soup making it have a very Italian taste and texture, but yikes the net carbs are something like 25g! So skip the beans...and the rest of the recipe is STUNNINGLY good. 

Otherwise just do any stock and add the meat and veggies you choose with some bay leaf and spices... I know you don't like cooking but the joy of a soup is that one batch can last several days...so cook once and reap the benefits for 3-4 days.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> Hello,
> 
> About a month ago my wife and I had a big fight. I woke up find her gone with our 2.5 year old daughter.
> 
> ...


Some similarities in my story, i suspected she was cheating and asked her, she told me she was unhappy and wanted a Divorce, she then wanted to work on us so we went Counseling, she told me i was a terrible person and she was done with me, we started divorcing and she wanted to work on us again so go to a different counselor with same end result i did not speak and was just told how bad I was.

Turns out she was cheating all along,


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> Unfortunately, that level of cruelty is fairly typical with people who are actively cheating or actively thinking about cheating.


(CC @MovingForward on this portion) She swears there's no one else. Though she told me that she came to realize she's full-on bi not that long ago. The other thing is though that we were always open about sex, and the topic/idea of "spicing things up" was never something we shied from.



> Thanks this works--it's interesting. Looks kind of rough, but I suspect that sort of intensity is good for ya right now.


Yeah, I've done so many styles. But the ultimate reason to train in this kind of thing is to protect oneself and/or loved ones. So it's about being able to do violence instantaneously against someone threatening death, maiming, etc. And being rough and intense redirects my brain. Which is my oxygen now.



> it was nice but there really wasn't a lot "happening" if you get my drift.


I do. I'm glad you could achieve that. Right now I'm in a large apartment all alone. Quiet is violence. (Not at all how I normally am. I like being in the wilderness, I like to meditate, etc)



> Pick something you like and chances are there will be other people there who also like the same thing.


"I have of late -- but wherefore I know not -- lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition, that this goodly frame the earth seems to me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy the air, look you, this brave o'er-hanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why it appeareth nothing to me but a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors. What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason; how infinite in faculties, in form and moving; how express and admirable in action; how like an angel in apprehension; how like a god: the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals. And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust?"

I understand that if I make it through this that things will eventually return. But right now nothing interests me. Well, that's an exaggeration. I do enjoy games still. (And I crave swiss cheese for some reason.) Thing is that Meetup bakes in social interaction. I've hiked an outrageous amount of times and I've interacted with others..... twice? (Beyond "Hi, how are you?")



> Look I get that big tough manly men don't like thinking they're afraid, but being single these days can be scary.


You know, I've spent time trying to think of my fears. The one fear I have is losing my mind. Which I may be. How fun is that?



> So instead of looking at the huge mountain (which is just way too much) don't turn...don't avoid it or deny it...just look it right in the eye and look at the ONE next step. One step--heck one step is doable. Then in a little while you might be able to look a couple steps down the road, then a few blocks, then a mile...and so on.


I tend to be a little pedantic, so forgive me if this is a difference without a difference. Whatever that saying is. I don't fear the mountain. I am exhausted. It's a mountain of misery. It's suffering for the rest of my days. I'm tired.



> Okay so here is my favorite soup recipe: Italian Sausage Soup Recipe - Allrecipes.com ...the only trick for keto may be Northern Beans.


Yeah, except I can't eat nightshades (in addition to legumes). So, this recipe is out. Haha. Thanks though.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Surprised it took so long for the "cheating' idea to come up in the discussion (unless I missed it).

The rewriting of history, the cruel and sudden "we're over" talk and the lying to make you out to be the villain you never knew you were... this is cheating wife 101. Pretty much every dude I've worked with over the past few years has been through some flavor of that. After all the introspection and blame and subsequent depression, the fog of the whole ordeal lifts and you're left with "My wife met some dude, fell hard for him, had sex, and subsequently lost her mind and had to cut all ties with me.. no matter how cruel and awful that may be. She had to close the chapter on our life."

I know... she SWEARS she didn't. Please. I give it 99% chance.

She's a broken woman. Her buttons were pushed. She reacted accordingly. There's absolutely ZERO you can do about it... except be the most awesome dad and dude the planet has ever seen.

Been there, done that. So have a WHOLE bunch of other guys. Always here if you want to chat.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> (CC @MovingForward on this portion) She swears there's no one else. Though she told me that she came to realize she's full-on bi not that long ago. The other thing is though that we were always open about sex, and the topic/idea of "spicing things up" was never something we shied from.





dadstartingover said:


> Surprised it took so long for the "cheating' idea to come up in the discussion (unless I missed it).
> 
> *The rewriting of history, the cruel and sudden "we're over" talk and the lying to make you out to be the villain you never knew you were... this is cheating wife 101*. Pretty much every dude I've worked with over the past few years has been through some flavor of that. After all the introspection and blame and subsequent depression, the fog of the whole ordeal lifts and you're left with "My wife met some dude, fell hard for him, had sex, and subsequently lost her mind and had to cut all ties with me.. no matter how cruel and awful that may be. She had to close the chapter on our life."
> 
> ...


Exactly what @dadstartingover says.

My wife swore also and I still giggle at the messages today, she has rewrote history now and she met him after we got divorced imagine that!!! I would bet money she met another guy. just be careful and look after yourself and your own interests.

Oh and Sex was never the issue with my marriage breakup and generally is not with woman apparently. Maybe some ladies on here can chip in and agree or disagree with me but my understanding is that she feels something else is missing so seeks it in another man


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

TheLittleEmpty: You're about to go down a big rabbit hole. This is not going to be fun. At all. The GOOD news is that this is the quickest way to see what you're made of.

I've written a few things that may be helpful to you:

You Can't Beat Emotion. Stop Trying.

My Wife Wouldn't Do That

Hitting Rock Bottom


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

@dadstartingover: Thank you. I will read these over the weekend.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Like I said, I went to my current therapist for one last time. She agreed with all my criticisms of her running our group session. She said she understood that her doing and saying nothing during the group session made me feel like I was being ganged up on. She said that she had trouble because she thought that the session was going to be civil and the barrage my wife was doling out was overwhelming to her.

I said I'd not be back. I went there to save my marriage. She said if I needed something to call her.

I'm still going to see the new therapist on Tuesday. I don't know what to expect there. Maybe it'll just be the one time.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> Like I said, I went to my current therapist for one last time. She agreed with all my criticisms of her running our group session. She said she understood that her doing and saying nothing during the group session made me feel like I was being ganged up on. She said that she had trouble because she thought that the session was going to be civil and the barrage my wife was doling out was overwhelming to her.
> 
> I said I'd not be back. I went there to save my marriage. She said if I needed something to call her.
> 
> I'm still going to see the new therapist on Tuesday. I don't know what to expect there. Maybe it'll just be the one time.


And, if it's only one time... make an appointment with another.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

dadstartingover said:


> TheLittleEmpty: You're about to go down a big rabbit hole. This is not going to be fun. At all. The GOOD news is that this is the quickest way to see what you're made of.
> 
> I've written a few things that may be helpful to you:
> 
> ...


I started reading these. I entered with an open mind. Because if it was as you suggest, I could at least understand that.

But the very first one talks about a lack in the sack (Like that? Can I TM that phrase?). We had no lack in the sack. In fact one of the few times she stopped yelling at me during the group session was to say that our sex life was so good that she had to distance herself from it.

I believe her when she says there's no one else. And she was so vicious during the one group therapy session, she would have said something about a lack. She went in to hurt me.

I appreciate your input, but it's not true.

Also, apologies to whoever said the sounds spoiled, she's never been that way. She never lived high on the hog. Even with her first husband. She is no stranger to sacrifice. She recently entered into college to earn more money and help the family. Which was good. But I will also preempt comments with the fact that I NEVER complained about how little she brought in to the household. I have always been happy to sacrifice for her (and my family).

I fully admit that I may be naive or just a dumbass, but none of the above applies. I have thought about these possibilities before coming here. And they don't fit.

I'm totally at a loss.

Re: [what kind of man]" to see what you're made of.":

I'm calm in a knife fight. I'm a manlet, but that has never stopped me. I can drop most men I meet without thought or raising my heartbeat. But I live for my family. That's who I am. That's what I'm made of. I've been a rock for them. She's thanked me for being that rock. I've also vocalized my feelings, I recognize that I'm not a robot and living as such is not sustainable. Nor is it fair to my wife. I talk about feelings. I talk about hers.

I've been homeless.

I can do it all.

I can't do this.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TheLIttleEmpty,

You can do this. You must do it, for your children. Just one hour at a time if you have to. At least one day at a time. 

Promise to check back in with us tomorrow.

The way your wife treated you in your counselling sessions sounds like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. Do you think she might have a mental disorder, like bipolar?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> TheLIttleEmpty,
> 
> You can do this. You must do it, for your children. Just one hour at a time if you have to. At least one day at a time.
> 
> Promise to check back in with us tomorrow.


I can do that. I will do that. Though my focus on death has not receded. It did before, but no longer. I've set up to volunteer at an event this coming Saturday, so I will most likely make it to at least that day. Hopefully I can help someone then. At least I get to see my baby tomorrow.



> The way your wife treated you in your counselling sessions sounds like Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. Do you think she might have a mental disorder, like bipolar?


I don't know. And in reality it doesn't matter. She thinks she's right. She will continue until she finds a therapist that will agree with her. And the Court will always side with her.

To All on the topic of women getting preferential treatment (esp. in CT):

As I (think) I mentioned, in CT there's a automatic Court order to go to classes for families with kids when going through divorce. Now, I'm not going to complain about them at all. Actually, I think they're excellent. They don't apply to me too much b/c my daughter is so young and she is used to a divorced household (her half brother). But I can see these classes being great for tons of kids. I am very pro this program. ($125 cost, BTW).

The topic of safety was brought in the class up repeatedly. Safety of the child trumps all. Meanwhile a man in my group has a daughter who was already injured by her mother. He put in - and was granted - a Court order against this woman. But because she's a woman she gets access to this girl. And likely will injure her again. And the father can do nothing.

Don't mean to get off-topic, but some doubt the sex bias of Courts.

My wife says I'm a villain. I will remain a villain. 

I don't think she is bipolar. I've known some of them. But there is SOMETHING that happened. She is not who she was. No drugs, no cheating. I'm baffled. I want to help her. I want my life back. I still love her.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@TheLIttleEmpty, 

#1 - There was a time after I discovered my husband was cheating on me (irrefutably), that I felt the world was all black and I could not live in this world. I am here, alive today because I lived 15 minutes at a time then. I stayed my hand for 15 minutes...and then after 15 minutes I'd re-assess and say 'I will wait 15 more minutes and see where I stand.' Every 15 minutes I obviously thought about it again...still...and yet I thought even I could live for 15 more minutes. 

You've never met me. I am a little, tiny hobbit of a woman, and not physically strong or tough at all. I'm pretty peaceful and kind. BUT I really am strong emotionally and spiritually, and this came so close that I had to live 15 minutes at a time for quite a while. If you are as strong as you say here in this thread, then live for 15 minutes...and when that time has passed, just put it off 15 minutes and see where you are...and then do that again. 15 minutes. 

#2 - I find it humorous that you say you read the threads "with an open mind." Looking back on most of the posts in this thread, you have shot down idea after idea, suggestion after suggestion. Therefore, I challenge you. I think your mind is closed. I don't believe you want to hear what people have to say...maybe because you don't want it to be true, and maybe because it would threaten the way you view the world if you were to open up to what people have recommended. But whatever the reason, I question the "openness" of your mind and boldly state that if you truly ARE open minded, that you stop explaining to us why everything we say could not possibly be, could not possibly work "for you", could not possibly apply, and could not possibly be true. Look back. Look at your own responses--almost every one of your posts, in one way or another, rejects the concepts presented. I suspect even now your head is thinking something like, "That's not true" but I challenge you. Go look back and read them for yourself! 

Now, being open minded does not mean that you have to do what others say. You sound like a fella who has a pretty strong independent streak to me. Fine--so be it. But to be open minded, you do need to pause that voice in your head that says: "Oh that can't be true because of X, Y, and Z" and say to yourself instead "Before I assume it can't be true, is it within the realm of conceivability that is might be true?" If you recognize it's in the realm of the possible, you might ask yourself if it is LIKELY to be true, even if you don't want it to be true. And if you realize it's possible and likely, then you might ask yourself if maybe you should listen. 

#3 - If you don't want to live this life, and if you don't want to listen to the thoughts of anonymous internet strangers...why are you here? I'm not being mean--I'm being curious. What do you hope to gain? Did you want us to convince you to live? Did you want us to tell you it would all "go back to the way it was"? (shrug) 

Because one HUGE thing that is holding you back right now is wanting your old life back. Even if your wife were to magically realize she was 100% wrong and you were 100% right and beg you to come back--guess what? What you had--the innocent, trusting marriage you had before all this--has been bombed into little bits, and it is dead. It is never, ever going to be the way it was. That's cold, I know, and hard to hear, but here's the thing--I respect you too much to lie to you and blow rainbows up your bum. Here's the truth: your life has changed. Even if she were to come back, the two of you would have to build a whole new marriage from the ground up...and that new marriage would not be the same as the old one. Here's the truth: whatever is coming in the future will NOT be the way it was--it will be DIFFERENT...and different is not bad, it's just not "the same." The sooner you can embrace that, the sooner you'll feel better. The future will not be "the way it was"--that is gone. Mourn for it but let it go. 

And if you would please let us know why you're here because it doesn't seem like you're willing to listen at all. 

Finally--good usage of Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2. So here's my question: are you like Hamlet, a student and not a soldier? If so, then are you willing to learn? Have you lost your faith in mankind (and womankind) as Hamlet did? Losing your faith is somewhat normal and understandable, but know this: there are people here on your thread who would be willing to mentor you along IF YOU WILL LET THEM.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> @TheLIttleEmpty,
> 
> <snip>almost every one of your posts, in one way or another, rejects the concepts presented. I suspect even now your head is thinking something like, "That's not true" but I challenge you. Go look back and read them for yourself!


K

Didn't see the point of my wife's childhood. Still posted about it.

Did a thank you for a good post to Emerging Buddhist, ReturntoZero, and Affaircare,

Agreed I'm blaming myself.

Agreed with you that I'm not a bad guy and that I'm an introvert.

Said that like you I gave up friends for marriage.

Said I'd try to make friends through Meetup.

Agreed with ReturnToZero about responding to something I couldn't ahve known about.

Agreed to tell my PCP about my suicicde info.

From you: "Are you aware that this whole thing is all about HER and not about YOU? Now, I'm not "assigning blame" here so much as pointing out to you that we've fairly established that you're a decent fellow and have a pretty good outlook and priorities...okay maybe a LITTLE heavy on family and forgetting to stay an individual, but that's correctable especially as your children get older. The kind of things that seem to be going on with you are within reason and understandable--you are depressed because something depressing ACTUALLY HAPPENED not because you're mentally ill (for example). But the kinds of things that seem to be coming from her are not within reason or understandable--she's lying and re-writing reality and blameshifting (for example). Thus, something within her was a ticking time bomb, and since you didn't know the time bomb was inside her, there was nothing you could do except be hit by the shrapnel.

This is good to read. Ya know, I feel like those helping me here are ... I feel it's like a debate. Or you're helping me to sculpt myself. Reading an excellent point or correction removes a chunk that is suffocating me."

And: "In a freaky way, it's similar for you. You have been HORRIBLY hurt. You are looking for ways to make sure that never happens to you again--it hurt so much. So you look at yourself and things you can change and things over which you have control in an attempt to get your own life back to where you can protect yourself. This was not about YOU...it was about her. Something in her is messed up and because of that, she harmed you and the one you love (your daughter). Now I'm not saying that tight clothes are good or bad--and I'm not saying that you were perfect in your marriage. It won't hurt to look at yourself and see if you can be a better man. BUT I AM saying that you had not control over the damage that was done to you.

Yes, you're right. And she could have been so much less destructive and hurtful in how she went about things. Or honest. I've not brought up how cruel she was during our group session."

And: "You know, if you look at it like "OMG I have all this stuff to do!" it feels pretty overwhelming and exhausting. So pick one thing that day and do it that day. Then do one more thing the next day. Maybe today is emailing one lawyer--cool, get that done and count yourself as "job well done" for that day. Then tomorrow you email another. The next day compare the two...etc.

I can do this."

But I DID say I can't eat your soup.

You're right, look at all the above. I dismiss everything.

You're tired of talking to me? Fine. Go.

If I am no longer welcome here, fine. I will go peacefully.

Don't call me out for BS.

Also I'm an atheist in a world of believers. I don't need to be schooled on what "open minded" is.



> Because one HUGE thing that is holding you back right now is wanting your old life back. Even if your wife were to magically realize she was 100% wrong and you were 100% right and beg you to come back--guess what? What you had--the innocent, trusting marriage you had before all this--has been bombed into little bits, and it is dead. It is never, ever going to be the way it was. That's cold, I know, and hard to hear, but here's the thing--I respect you too much to lie to you and blow rainbows up your bum. Here's the truth: your life has changed. Even if she were to come back, the two of you would have to build a whole new marriage from the ground up...and that new marriage would not be the same as the old one. Here's the truth: whatever is coming in the future will NOT be the way it was--it will be DIFFERENT...and different is not bad, it's just not "the same." The sooner you can embrace that, the sooner you'll feel better. The future will not be "the way it was"--that is gone. Mourn for it but let it go.


Yes. This might have been useful if not for preceding paragraphs.



> And if you would please let us know why you're here because it doesn't seem like you're willing to listen at all.


Refuted above. You are flat out wrong. Thanks for your past help.



> Have you lost your faith in mankind (and womankind) as Hamlet did?


Yes.



> Losing your faith is somewhat normal and understandable, but know this: there are people here on your thread who would be willing to mentor you along IF YOU WILL LET THEM.


I'm trying. If I'm missing something, I'm willing to listen. But I am not on your timetable and I am not here to appease you, my wife, or anyone else. I thank you for your past help and I hold nothing against you if you bow out of this thread, which clearly should happen.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Go online and check your phone bill.

Your answer may be there.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> Go online and check your phone bill.
> 
> Your answer may be there.


What? I have no landline.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Check her cell phone usage. Who she calls, texts.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> Check her cell phone usage. Who she calls, texts.


Oh, I see. I didn't do that. And I can't do it now. She's gone and we're on separate accounts.

Part of it is too that I chided myself when worries crept up on me. Just because I shouldn't have trusted my first wife (who was unfaithful in many ways) was no reason to hold my current under suspicion.

Like I've said (elsewhere), the most precious resource on the planet is trust.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

If there are red flags and there are you shouldn't start taking blame for it all.

Hard no contact. Is your only good path right now.

Hold firm on that


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Going to see my daughter today. Excited.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

When did you and your wife get separate phone accounts? If they were on one bill prior to her attitude toward you changing, get the biills out and look at the calls. 

I learned a lot from our phone bill. I even found the night my husband told me he had to get off the phone because he was tired, but what really happened was that he OW left a voice message while we were talking. When he saw the voice message he immediately told me he was tired, hung up and called her. They talked until 3 am. Tired my azz. 

A woman rarely leaves a man for nobody unless she is escaping abuse. You say you weren't an abuser. If that is true my guess is that she left because she is having an affair. 

You need too investigate starting with old phone bills, hack her email, etc and find out.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> When did you and your wife get separate phone accounts? If they were on one bill prior to her attitude toward you changing, get the biills out and look at the calls.
> 
> I learned a lot from our phone bill. I even found the night my husband told me he had to get off the phone because he was tired, but what really happened was that he OW left a voice message while we were talking. When he saw the voice message he immediately told me he was tired, hung up and called her. They talked until 3 am. Tired my azz.
> 
> ...


We've has separate cell phone accounts for years. Virgin Mobile is really cheap. Haven't had a landline in a very, very long time.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@TheLIttleEmpty, 

I am sorry my post upset you and maybe even hurt you. My intent was kindness and caring but clearly I did not do a good job of communicating that to you. I'm responsible for the words I chose and the way I said them, and from your post it seems to me that I hit a nerve. I can completely understand why you'd be angry, and in your shoes I might feel the same way and think similarly. Since you've asked for me to bow out, I'll honor your request, but I did want to leave with at a sincere apology and ask if you'd forgive me for hurting you. In the future I will leave you in the competent hands of other folks here on TAM. 

Will you please forgive me? I would deeply appreciate it.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> @TheLIttleEmpty,
> 
> I am sorry my post upset you and maybe even hurt you. My intent was kindness and caring but clearly I did not do a good job of communicating that to you. I'm responsible for the words I chose and the way I said them, and from your post it seems to me that I hit a nerve. I can completely understand why you'd be angry, and in your shoes I might feel the same way and think similarly.


It angered me and I found it out of left field.

Not sure but the fact that I felt like I was finally turning a corner when I first sat down before reading your post may have influenced how I took it.



> Since you've asked for me to bow out, I'll honor your request


I didn't intend for it to be a full-on "please leave". More "if you feel that I'm beyond helping or that I'm attempting to waste your time, then feel free to leave."



> but I did want to leave with at a sincere apology and ask if you'd forgive me for hurting you. In the future I will leave you in the competent hands of other folks here on TAM.
> 
> Will you please forgive me? I would deeply appreciate it.


I appreciate you stepping up like this. You are absolutely forgiven. It's forgotten.

Whether you stay or go, I wish you well.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> It angered me and I found it out of left field.
> 
> Not sure but the fact that I felt like I was finally turning a corner when I first sat down before reading your post may have influenced how I took it.


I'm happy to hear you feel like you're turning a corner. 



> I didn't intend for it to be a full-on "please leave". More "if you feel that I'm beyond helping or that I'm attempting to waste your time, then feel free to leave."


I don't feel like you are beyond helping or a waste of time. Quite the opposite in fact. You seem extremely smart and like a decent person. 



> I appreciate you stepping up like this. You are absolutely forgiven. It's forgotten.
> 
> Whether you stay or go, I wish you well.


Thank you for accepting my apology. Likewise I wish you well and hope you do find folks here who are helpful for you.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> tech-novelist: (A writer? Any way I can see your wares?) No. I'm a loner. I work and spend time with my family. That's who I am.
> 
> My one close online friend I already shared some generalities with and he's simply not able to deal with what I'm going through. He's a nice guy and all, but it's like "I'm going to root for you. Let me know how it all works out." Next best is my martial arts instructor. But I doubt he can offer anything other than an "I'm sorry". And I feel bad burdening people with my nonsense. Most people aren't equipped to handle this kind of thing. I'm planning on wearing a long sleeve shirt to class tomorrow. Not sure what I'll do.


Yes, I'm a writer, although not of fiction. My nickname refers to a comment made by reader of one of my programming books who said that it was like a "technical novel" because he couldn't put it down.

I'll PM you with contact info in case you want to talk. I'm retired and have a fair amount of spare time, and would like to help if I could.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

tech-novelist said:


> Yes, I'm a writer, although not of fiction. My nickname refers to a comment made by reader of one of my programming books who said that it was like a "technical novel" because he couldn't put it down.
> 
> I'll PM you with contact info in case you want to talk. I'm retired and have a fair amount of spare time, and would like to help if I could.


Empty,

I've read tech's stuff for years. He's a solid dude. Will be of great help to you if you take advantage of his offer.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Sorry I've been away. Long story short, I voluntarily submitted myself to a psych ward. I've been away since Monday night.
It was a miserable, boring time. Most of the group sessions were pretty useless. One was really nice, though. I think getting into a different space, being forced to not look at the same walls, deal with the same paperwork, etc. was good. Met some nice people.
I've been put on a super low dose antidepressant. I'm of course hoping to titrate down to nothing someday. Hate being on meds. Never been on anything (other than a rare antibiotic). But in the meantime it seems to be helping. Everything going on is still kind of crushing, but it's not panic-inducing in the same way.
Going to attend group therapy sessions 3x week for one to three months. Then go and finally have a one-on-one session with the new therapist I found.
Haven't had any of the borderline panic attacks. But I've only been out for like five hours. And not really out in public.
Thoughts of death have popped up, as I expected. But they haven't found a handhold in my mind. They arise, I acknowledge them, and they leave. Which I think is realistic.
Being back in this space, facing the paperwork again (which has laid dormant), being forced to interact with my STBXW. If I didn't have those thoughts arise again, I imagine I'd need to be so stuffed full of pills I wouldn't be able to function.
Of course things couldn't have gone all well. The Social Worker was supposed to contact the Courthouse that I was supposed to have an appearance in this morning. She told me it was all set and the appearance was going to be postponed. It went on anyhow.
I have tried to contact the lawyer I've been working with. Hoping to hear back from him soon. I don't see how that's right.
I'm no longer in denial about the divorce. I gave one last ditch attempt to save things before I left and it failed. I've been willing to work with her and forgive/work on how she's behaved and treated me. My kindness, once accepted to varying degrees, has been only repaid with contempt lately. And now that I'm back from the hospital, there's been not one hint of a question as to my well-being.
I'm done. I should've come to this realization before, but I'm stubborn and I fight for those I love. I saw her as struggling with something, and I wasn't going to give up on her. But she gave up on us and I can't do anything at this point.
Going to hurt like hell, but I think I can press on.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

TheLIttleEmpty said:


> Of course things couldn't have gone all well. The Social Worker was supposed to contact the Courthouse that I was supposed to have an appearance in this morning. She told me it was all set and the appearance was going to be postponed. It went on anyhow.
> I have tried to contact the lawyer I've been working with. Hoping to hear back from him soon. I don't see how that's right.


What was this hearing about ?
Did counsel appear for you?
Have you paid a retainer to this attorney?


You do realize that if your wife and her counsel find about your hospital admittance it can and will be used against you.

You need to get an attorney yesterday, pay the retainer and protect yourself.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@TheLIttleEmpty,

I'm glad you were honest with yourself and did what you needed to do to take care of yourself. Good job.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Glad for the good report.

Sounds like a lot of good things were set up. I'm so glad you went there for a few days to get some outside professional input. Those people care and know how to help people where they need help.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Araucaria said:


> Glad for the good report.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of good things were set up. I'm so glad you went there for a few days to get some outside professional input. Those people care and know how to help people where they need help.[/
> 
> ...


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

sandcastle said:


> Araucaria said:
> 
> 
> > Glad for the good report.
> ...


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm strictly talking from a legal standpoint.

OP obviously cares a great deal about his child.

Get an attorney and keep the mental aspect on lockdown.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

sandcastle said:


> What was this hearing about ?


The pendant lite, I think it's called. Child support, visitation, that kind of thing. Before the actual divorce happens.



> Did counsel appear for you?
> Have you paid a retainer to this attorney?


I've been working with one, he's helped me out. I cannot afford to retain him. He said he will work with me and bill me. But he won't represent me, just council me. He said he'd come with me for the actual divorce hearing.



> You do realize that if your wife and her counsel find about your hospital admittance it can and will be used against you.


I asked the nurse when I arrived if I should inform her. She said I should. So I asked her to. They failed to tell her. I contacted my STBXW and told her I voluntarily went into a psych ward. I took the nurse's word. So great, I'm screwed again.



> You need to get an attorney yesterday, pay the retainer and protect yourself.


I can't afford an attorney. And I make too much to go the free/super low cost council route.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

@Affaircare and @Araucaria : Thanks very much.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

OP- do you live in the US?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Depression, anxiety and suicidal ideation that is a product of marital problems is not generally addressed in a 5150 or voluntary hold of 72 hours.
> 
> The attending shrink spends about 30 secs on each patient per day of hold and prescribes meds. Dopey group meetings and you are discharged UNLESS they find some reason to keep you and they will- especially if you have great insurance.


As this is my first time going through anything like this, I can only speak to my one data point. I had far more than 30 seconds with the shrink. And I was given all the time I needed to ask any questions I wanted. Furthermore everyone there was monitoring the patients, frequently talking to each. The profile worked up is more substantial than perhaps has been your experience. I also did not have meds pushed on me. It was offered.

They do look hard for a reason to keep you. Which is all the more reason that I feel I've proven myself.

The Social Worker contacted my new therapist. He was the one that recommended the 1-3 months of group sessions, after which I will go to solo sessions with him. So I'm not exactly just left to do whatever.



> He needs a solid private support system , medications that can help him sleep and stabilize mood and his anger needs to kick into gear.


Working on support. I've got some people up to speed and are stepping up to talk with me.

The meds have been prescribed.

Anger is getting there. Trying to keep things civil, though. And keep our issues away from our daughter.
@Araucaria


> That was the best thing that ever happened to me. When I got out, I had the tools to cope, things to do when I found my self going into a bad emotional place, and lost the shame about talking with people when I was down.


The downtime was needed more than I knew. It sounds stupid, but when I was there I felt good that there was anyone willing to help me. I have had no one, really (not counting you fine folk, of course. Talking Meatspace). I even told a few people in my life what I did, but they're not equipped to handle that kind of thing. Now that I am out and I've told the same people where I am now, they're more able to work with my situation. They've been really great. And between talking with them and my own feelings being on this med, I'm feeling less shame about being on a med.

I don't have any new tools, but I've learned how to focus the ones that I have to be more effective and not scattershot.

The time there was mostly complete misery, but I don't know how long it would have taken me, or if I even could, to get to how I'm feeling now without my time in the ward. So it was probably the right thing to do in the long run.

Oh, another thing on shame. When I first went in to the ER and waited for the Crisis lady, I asked a nurse how many of me do they see in a day. She said "plenty" or something like that. I said "Plenty? Like a dozen?" And she said, "Yes, depending on the day." 

Think of those numbers. And that's who actually goes in. It took me weeks to go in. So I'm not so rare. I feel a little less like a freak. And I feel a sort of brotherhood to know we're this ecosystem of men going through this crap. One which is rarely spoken about.

Make any sense?



> @sandcastle He needed to save himself first, or he might not be around to go to court. He did the right thing by admitting himself and starting the ball rolling for his mental health improvement.


Very much so. I can't say for sure if I'd have made it. It was going to be a roll of the dice. And as you say, it's the ball rolling. My first therapist did nothing. And I was stagnant. I'm a ruminater. I've been sad before, and always able to out work or outlast bad times. This kicked my ass beyond just my abilities.



> If your wife or her attorney don't find out about your stay in the psych ward, don't ever volunteer the information or throw it in her face in anger or to get sympathy: i.e. See how much what you did messed me up??


Welp, obviously the cat is out of the bag about my whereabouts. Nothing I can do there now.

I did not ever say anything about it in anger or to get sympathy. I didn't call her when I was there and I didn't prompt her in any way (Like "aren't you going to ask how I am?"). I was asked by people when I was there if I called my STBXW, and I said no. Because I don't think I can get comfort from her (and that is proven now), I didn't think it was appropriate, and I felt that if I did so it would be some kind of slimy manipulative move.


A last thought: During the hearing for the restraining order, the Judge was most interested in what help/therapy I was getting. I'm perhaps being a complete naive fool, but I feel a bit better about having gone through this and making my next steps, having my work and progress recorded. 

Apologies if my forum editing magic here is lacking and made the above hard to read.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

sandcastle said:


> OP- do you live in the US?


I do.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Glad your experience was helpful and hopefully you can get appropriate legal counsel .

You mentioned a restraining order.

Maybe I missed it . Who filed a RO and why?

At any rate- sounds like you are on track. Hopefully , your STBXW is an empath who wants the best for you and your child.

Good Luck.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

sandcastle said:


> Glad your experience was helpful and hopefully you can get appropriate legal counsel .
> 
> You mentioned a restraining order.
> 
> ...


We had a giant fight - our worst ever (we rarely fought). I awoke to find her gone with the baby. Which she promised she'd not do. I was pissed off. So I sent text messages to her. Some mean, some not. 34 over the course of two or three days. Which apparently was considered "cyber bullying" under the new law in my state.

When we went to Court at the end of the temporary order, we all wanted the order to end. The Judge felt differently and that she would be putting herself "in danger", despite there never being any abuse or allegations of abuse. Or threats. So he extended it for six months. And was sure to let me know he was being kind because it could've been two years.

Thanks very much.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Any update on this brother?

Have you taken up tech-novelist on his offer?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

@ReturntoZero Hello, thanks for checking in.

Yes, there are updates. Sorry, I've had so little time to post recently. I'll catch things up below.

As far as tech-novelist goes, yes, I did take him up. And he's a very nice gentleman, but it was a bit of a non-starter. His writeup is about New Age type ideas where we're all connected and impact the Universe and yadda yadda yadda. I'm still most appreciative of his help, though.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

OK, updates.... I haven't heard from the lawyer I've been working with. I'm assuming he's either swamped, down with the flu, or waiting for me to send some documents that I haven't had time to get to.

The idea of finding another now sucks lots, especially since, as I said, I can't actually afford one.

Group counseling has been mostly useless. Got like another two or three weeks.

On my mental front, I've come to the conclusion that my ex is nuts, has been cheating on me, or is protecting her mother's wealth (thinking I will become a gold digger). Or a combination thereof. I every once in a while have a delusion that we will get back together, but they're rare and fleeting now.

I still get some panic attacks, but they're more rare and less severe. When they hit hard, the anti-anxiety med helps blunt them to a manageable level.

Most of the time I'm still not sure if I want to be alive or not. But the option for me to end things by my own hand doesn't really enter my mind.

We were able to get out of the lease on the apartment, effective the end of the month. Ex decided this past Wednesday to invite herself to move **** out starting today. In that time I was able to get my stuff that I was reasonably able to take (not very big or heavy things), including a bed for my daughter and our bed. Which makes me happy. It's all in a reasonably safe storage place until I move. We have a verbal agreement that she will be able to take what I can't.

I was able to find an apartment very close to my work at a price I can afford that will be available on March 1st. So I probably won't be homeless. I'm concerned about having enough money for first month's rent and whatnot, but it's probably without good reason. Otherwise I'm worried that I'll have to cash out an old 401k to not be homeless, but that will not go over well in Court. But the ex has sole access to our emergency fund.

For about 15 minutes Saturday I was actually kind of excited about rebuilding my life. It was strange and unexpected.

Before he disappeared, the lawyer recommended not pushing to see my daughter, I guess to try to keep things civil. So I haven't talked to her in quite some time. Just told my ex when I'll be available to talk to her. We'll see if she complies.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Something I've done and may be an option for people like me that hate journaling. I still intend on doing another entry (my third), but man I hate journaling. But the reason I've seen it recommneded for people going through a divorce is to give a sense of progress. So I've focused on that and done something everyone can do.

I've made a list.

It's a list of Divorce Milestones.

I'll list mine so far:

> Didn't die
> Watched a commercial with a wedding and didn't cry
> Watched a toddler with a wedding and didn't cry
> Heard sappy '80s love song and didn't cry
> Saw red-tailed hawk and didn't cry
> While driving, I took a moment to sit straighter and breathe deeply. Solely because it felt good.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

So, Order update.

I've still yet to get a copy myself (I did pick up a copy of the Order before it was approved the day after the hearing almost two weeks ago).

I put in for a hearing to amend the Order and filed a waiver for the cost because it shouldn't have gone on. Which of course was denied, so I need to resubmit the paperwork with the fee.

My ex sent me a picture of the final Order and it's a touch worse than the pre-approved one I got a copy of. My wages will be garnished for the child support, she gets sole custody of our child, and I can only have parenting time with her while in the company of my ex and an agreed upon 3rd party or at some kind of institution thing (at my expense, of course). And of course the child support/medical is too high.

There is no reason for all of this. I'm an excellent employee at a very stable job. We've never fought over money. There's also never been an issue with me spending time with our child. Overnights were just on the horizon before all this went down.

Someone suggested that I go to Family Services. I've found an office in the city I live in and one where the case is being held.

My life is ****.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Were you aware all of this was going on?


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Nope. Not in the least.

Clarification: I was aware of the scheduled pendant lite, mentioned here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/409002-black-everything-all-black-5.html#post19014858


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Hang in there. Glad there have been little glimmers of something more positive in your life. Those times and thoughts will increase over time. So glad the meds are taking the edge off the depression and suicidal thoughts.

Got to family services, get whatever legal counsel they can provide and fight the order. Fight for 50/50, with no 3rd party present when you have your child. Maybe they can get you a psych evaluation to prove that you are not psycho, but were just under duress caused by your wife taking your child away in the middle of the night. The same with the antidepression meds.

Request in writing (text and email) to see your child as much as you are presently legally allowed without looking psycho. If you stop requesting, it will look like you are not interested and that will be used against you. Save emails, save texts, and keep a calendar of all the times you have requested, been denied, or been able to see your child. Keep an accurate diary/timetable to present to the court when the time comes.

Keep posting.


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## TheLIttleEmpty (Jan 21, 2018)

Thank you. I will do.

I was able to speak with my daughter last night on video chat. It was so great. And so sad when she cried when I had to go. But it was something.


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