# From A to Z



## zillard

From A to Z.

I came to TAM after discovery of my ex-wife's affair with a co-worker. I was devastated. It was the worst time of my life, even harder than dealing with the deaths of my two brothers. 

The in-house separation was incredibly painful, confusing, and eye-opening. That is when I began my journey of self-discovery and healing. I immediately began weekly sessions with a psychotherapist and also got my lovely daughter into weekly sessions as well (many of those became joint sessions with X for the purpose of improving co-parenting). 

Before the X moved out of the family home, she granted me primary physical custody of my daughter with the rights to move out of state with her in the divorce papers. Shortly after she asked for me to reconsider moving, but failed to meet any of my requirements to prove she could make D a priority. 

I dove into TAM and the books I found recommended here and by the two therapists. 

I began to see a transformation. I felt better. I become more comfortable with myself, as well as my faults. I am learning to accept them and work on them, without beating myself up. By doing so, I am enjoying the present more, am less worried about the future, and am letting go of the past. 

During that time, I continued my personal work and went out on my one night/week away from D7 to mingle with strangers and build up my self confidence. At first I was validation seeking; no doubt about it. I gave my number out to women... and never got a call back. Then I stopped and put my effort into having fun instead, which resulted in women handing me their numbers. 

After the divorce I reconnected online, long distance, with a female friend (Tiger) from my past. For months we had very open, honest conversations, and eventually met up a few times.

I then moved out of state with my daughter, as planned. We returned to my home town - where I have wanted to live again for years but X forbid - and we are both loving being close to family again. Tiger and I are now seeing each other frequently, but with boundaries regarding my daughter and hers. 

I have me time. I have daddy daughter time. And I have T time. It is working well.

I'm finding that life is a wonderful thing. There is beauty everywhere - of all types. And all I need to see that is the right perspective; the right focus. 

What do I want in life. What do I enjoy. What do I value. 

I discover more about myself every day. I love who I am, which enables me to treat myself and also to continue improving. 

My extremely long thread in Going Through Divorce or Separation is below, but I will be updating this thread now instead. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/60683-what-do-i-dont-know.html


----------



## unsure78

welcome to life on the other side Z


----------



## hope4family

Is there a welcome pamphlet or something? I dont know, even though I am divorced, I haven't created a thread over here.


----------



## unsure78

hope4family said:


> Is there a welcome pamphlet or something? I dont know, even though I am divorced, I haven't created a thread over here.


You better get on that Hope you are behind... oh wait ive deleted all mine a long time ago....


----------



## zillard

Yeah, come on H4F. Everyone's doin' it.


----------



## unsure78

zillard said:


> Yeah, come on H4F. Everyone's doin' it.


Peer Pressure!!!!!! Come on just DO IT


----------



## hope4family

unsure78 said:


> You better get on that Hope you are behind... oh wait ive deleted all mine a long time ago....


Hhhmm while true. As soon as I get over this final hurdle with ex. I'll bounce back over here and create a thread.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Yeah, come on H4F. Everyone's doin' it.


I've been on the waiting list for almost a year. 

All you single kids have fun...come give us a visit in limbo land from time-to-time.


----------



## Lifescript

Hey Z, 

How's D7 adjusting to the move?


----------



## vi_bride04

Z - your transformation from when you first started posting to now is incredible. Be so proud of yourself.  

Congrats on the new life!


----------



## Chuck71

Welcome Z! It's really laid back here. Kind of like a shady small town on the Gulf coast. There's not much traffic here and you can ride in the fast lane for hours. We all go to bed after Andy Griffith goes off. You would be amazed how great the coffee is at Hardee's at 4:00 AM.M. right when they open.

Stop by sometime, we can play checkers. If you do, I need Denture-Grip at the store and if you could, please help me find my teeth!

All kidding aside 
:smthumbup: 

I would say save a place for GP but recently, he may have to flee the country soon! :rofl:


Don Dokken - Mirror, Mirror - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Hey Z,
> 
> How's D7 adjusting to the move?


She is doing well. Absolutely loves being around her grandmother and cousins. 

We've been going to visit one relative or another about every night. She's off to the movies with Grandma, Aunt and 2 cousins right now. 

Tomorrow we are going to the zoo. This weekend having a cookout at the dam. Next weekend going to a lake. 

Her mother is still missing good night calls here and there, but D7 isn't letting her off the hook. Now that she has her own phone, she calls her mom the next day and starts off with "Why didn't you call last night?". 

Last night they spoke and I could hear D's end of the conversation:

D - So, did you find another job yet?

D - Why not? 

D - Don't you do that already?

D - Why have you had so many jobs?

Last night was the first time D7 broke down crying at bedtime since we've arrived. 

I have received two referrals for child psychs in the area, and more that I've been told to avoid.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> She is doing well. Absolutely loves being around her grandmother and cousins.
> 
> We've been going to visit one relative or another about every night. She's off to the movies with Grandma, Aunt and 2 cousins right now.
> 
> Tomorrow we are going to the zoo. This weekend having a cookout at the dam. Next weekend going to a lake.
> 
> Her mother is still missing good night calls here and there, but D7 isn't letting her off the hook. Now that she has her own phone, she calls her mom the next day and starts off with "Why didn't you call last night?".
> 
> Last night they spoke and I could hear D's end of the conversation:
> 
> D - So, did you find another job yet?
> 
> D - Why not?
> 
> D - Don't you do that already?
> 
> D - Why have you had so many jobs?
> 
> Last night was the first time D7 broke down crying at bedtime since we've arrived.
> 
> I have received two referrals for child psychs in the area, and more that I've been told to avoid.


Sounds good Z. It must be so tough for her to be away from her mom. Good thing is she now has a lot of family members to be with.


----------



## brokenbythis

I'm very much looking forward to coming out on the other side. I despise my ex more and more every day. I want him completely gone from my thoughts.

I know one day I'll meet someone who is a mentally healthy, real husband and get the love and respect I deserve.


----------



## zillard

Today was great! I conquered X's spaghetti sauce. It is D's favorite meal and X previously refused to give up the recipe - opting to make us sauce and sneak it into my freezer during kid swaps instead. 

I f'n nailed it! D7 loved it and cleared her bowl in record time, asking if I got the recipe from her mom. 

I also found a child psych in the area that does play therapy, the type recommended by her previous therapist. First opening next week and then bi-weekly. Most every other slot for the next month+ is booked up, which I've learned is a good sign with ICs. 

I got a text from X informing me that she has mailed off a money order for her half of the expenses to prep the house for sale. 

Received a $550 refund check for the home insurance, as well as an unexpected check from my VP for some quick side work that I did for him for free as a friend. 

My brother is moving back here tomorrow, so I'll be making the 2 hour trip to the airport to pick him up. Tiger will be coming along to keep me company.


----------



## catcalls

so Z is loaded now ;-) some retail therapy awaiting you

i am sorry to say, but for your X, her daughter is learning and living with more stable and well adjusted people. she will miss her sure, but need her less and less.


----------



## Chuck71

I guess your journey and mine were similar, some in occurrence and other in time frame. The more you move away from the carnage of late 2012, the less grip it holds. But sometimes.....you have to reflect....to measure your progress. 

I miss certain things my X did, I detested certain things she did. We could simply look at each other and know what the other was thinking. I miss that but hopefully, in time, it can develop with new gal. You can't expect to recoup what was lost from fifteen plus years in five months.

To say it is a process is an understatement. I have wondered if the IDGAF letter would be necessary, the hate and indifference is mostly gone. It would be more a letter of pity. I may draft one for the heck of it. You should trek back east and visit the Smokies. I would be glad to show you the area, it is mind blowing. Cades Cove and Mt. LeConte is a must for "outsiders'.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Tiger will be coming along to keep me company.


Hows the strip?


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> some retail therapy awaiting you


New kicks and threads! woot


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Hows the strip?


well... she's still around!

Had a funny conversation with my mother yesterday. 

M - Can I ask you a question?

Z - Sure.

M - It's a personal question.

Z - You can ask whatever you like. I might not answer though.

M - Is she going to move in with you?

Z - Whoa, Mom. Slow down! We're talking about when to have dinner. I want to avoid anything resembling family dinner. She's not even allowed in the apartment when D7 is home. That has to be D7's safe zone. So in the foreseeable future... no.

For a minute I thought: doesn't she know who she's talking to? 

And I realized... no, of course she doesn't. I came home changed.

:smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Took D7 to an outdoor arts festival today. 

Let her pick out some art for her new room. Got her face painted. Had a ring made for her. Bought her a new hat she picked out. 

She wanted to take a pic to send to her mom. I snapped one with my phone. 

Sent it off, with no message, after D7 had a phone call with her telling her about her fun. 

X - I thought it was against the rules to send texts after 8.

(never was. I set a boundary that I would not respond to any texts sent to me between midnight and 8am). 

Z - Not that I recall but it won't happen again.

X - I appreciate the pic. I really do. But one of your boundaries was no late texts. 

X - It really was a problem for you, but now it's ok. I honestly don't know how to deal with this. 

X - Nothing I do has ever been right according to you, but you can do whatever you want, and its totally fine. Its frustrating.

And here sits Z. Not responding. 

Appreciate the pic or don't. I could care less. No need to explain a photo of a smiling 7yo girl with a butterfly painted on her face. 

It's self explanatory.


----------



## Dollystanford

Wow, you would think that a pic of her daughter would be a delight at any time wouldn't you? It makes me wonder who these people are that we married, how much they change. Or were they always like that?


----------



## 06Daddio08

I could see there possibly being hurt feelings if the picture was sent without a follow up phone call from D7 explaining things. The whole "no texts after 8pm" rewriting of history is so off the mark it just gives you insight on how she's really dealing with things still.

Nothing but rewriting and blaming. One day maybe she will learn .. for D7 sake.


----------



## ReGroup

What's up Z... Keeping up with you, Chucky and A12 -

Keep posting your progress brother. Lay the road map for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Took D7 to an outdoor arts festival today.
> 
> Let her pick out some art for her new room. Got her face painted. Had a ring made for her. Bought her a new hat she picked out.
> 
> She wanted to take a pic to send to her mom. I snapped one with my phone.
> 
> Sent it off, with no message, after D7 had a phone call with her telling her about her fun.
> 
> X - I thought it was against the rules to send texts after 8.
> 
> (never was. I set a boundary that I would not respond to any texts sent to me between midnight and 8am).
> 
> Z - Not that I recall but it won't happen again.
> 
> X - I appreciate the pic. I really do. But one of your boundaries was no late texts.
> 
> X - It really was a problem for you, but now it's ok. I honestly don't know how to deal with this.
> 
> X - Nothing I do has ever been right according to you, but you can do whatever you want, and its totally fine. Its frustrating.
> 
> And here sits Z. Not responding.
> 
> Appreciate the pic or don't. I could care less. No need to explain a photo of a smiling 7yo girl with a butterfly painted on her face.
> 
> It's self explanatory.


Z, not excusing your X's behavior, but she is lost and doesn't know how to find her way. She is still at the same level of awareness she was when this all first started 

Too bad she hasn't made the same efforts you made. Not to say things would have turned out differently. You might say that TAM, or something equivalent, could be more beneficial to her now than you.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> What's up Z... Keeping up with you, Chucky and A12 -
> 
> Keep posting your progress brother. Lay the road map for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The work continues. I moved back around my family at the perfect time for me. The support with. D7 is great, but I'm learning that isn't all. 

Daily interactions with my parents, sisters, etc are excellent opportunities. I'm setting boundaries and not biting my tongue in a new way. And they are responding very well. It really feels like new relationships with them. Better.

I'm looking for a new IC for myself and excited to get back in and dive into family of origin work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

***X - Nothing I do has ever been right according to you, but you can do whatever you want, and its totally fine. Its frustrating.***

Why did I feel I heard that very same phrase not too long ago?

Help me
Save me
Come get me
Feel sorry for me

KMA


----------



## zillard

I got another text from X yesterday, after not responding to her.

X - Sorry I blew up last night. It was unnecessary. I apologize. 

She rarely apologizes for anything. To anyone. So I chose to respond (reward good behavior). 

Z - Thank you for the apology.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Took D7 to an outdoor arts festival today.
> 
> Let her pick out some art for her new room. Got her face painted. Had a ring made for her. Bought her a new hat she picked out.
> 
> She wanted to take a pic to send to her mom. I snapped one with my phone.
> 
> Sent it off, with no message, after D7 had a phone call with her telling her about her fun.
> 
> X - I thought it was against the rules to send texts after 8.
> 
> (never was. I set a boundary that I would not respond to any texts sent to me between midnight and 8am).
> 
> Z - Not that I recall but it won't happen again.
> 
> X - I appreciate the pic. I really do. But one of your boundaries was no late texts.
> 
> X - It really was a problem for you, but now it's ok. I honestly don't know how to deal with this.
> 
> X - Nothing I do has ever been right according to you, but you can do whatever you want, and its totally fine. Its frustrating.
> 
> And here sits Z. Not responding.
> 
> Appreciate the pic or don't. I could care less. No need to explain a photo of a smiling 7yo girl with a butterfly painted on her face.
> 
> It's self explanatory.


I just puked in my mouth a little bit. 

I lied. I puked a lot.


----------



## zillard

Best Father's Day gift, ever!

My lil sister helped D7 do a card for me. Included was a list of fill-in-the-blank statements that D completed on her own. 

My Dad likes to wear: *plaid*

He loves to eat: *what I eat*

He is smart because he knows: *what I don't*

My Dad works hard at: *Art*

Daddy always tells me: *He love's me*

It makes my Dad happy when: *I acomplish*

I really love it when my Dad: *plays whit me*

If I could give my daddy anything it would be: *my love*

My favorite thing about my Dad is: *he loves me*


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Best Father's Day gift, ever!
> 
> My lil sister helped D7 do a card for me. Included was a list of fill-in-the-blank statements that D completed on her own.
> 
> My Dad likes to wear: *plaid*
> 
> He loves to eat: *what I eat*
> 
> He is smart because he knows: *what I don't*
> 
> My Dad works hard at: *Art*
> 
> Daddy always tells me: *He love's me*
> 
> It makes my Dad happy when: *I acomplish*
> 
> I really love it when my Dad: *plays whit me*
> 
> If I could give my daddy anything it would be: *my love*
> 
> My favorite thing about my Dad is: *he loves me*


That's great Z. DS made a card for me in school. Filled my heart with joy.


----------



## Chuck71

And we wonder why so many parents keep a ton of stuff from

children. When D goes away to college, those are things you 

are glad you kept


----------



## zillard

"“A person's true nature is revealed at times of the greatest adversity."
-Daisaku Ikeda

"She has shown you who she is." 
-Conrad


----------



## ReGroup

Our boy is in the Gulag again.

Being paroled on Friday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> Our boy is in the Gulag again.
> 
> Being paroled on Friday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha. Of course he is.

More funny:

After X went on facebook and liked Tiger's pics of our backpacking trip... she went back and unliked them.

Round and round she goes. Where she stops - nobody knows.


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Best Father's Day gift, ever!
> 
> My lil sister helped D7 do a card for me. Included was a list of fill-in-the-blank statements that D completed on her own.
> 
> My Dad likes to wear: *plaid*
> 
> He loves to eat: *what I eat*
> 
> He is smart because he knows: *what I don't*
> 
> My Dad works hard at: *Art*
> 
> Daddy always tells me: *He love's me*
> 
> It makes my Dad happy when: *I acomplish*
> 
> I really love it when my Dad: *plays whit me*
> 
> If I could give my daddy anything it would be: *my love*
> 
> My favorite thing about my Dad is: *he loves me*


that is great. she sounds so secure and confident.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Haha. Of course he is.
> 
> More funny:
> 
> After X went on facebook and liked Tiger's pics of our backpacking trip... she went back and unliked them.
> 
> Round and round she goes. Where she stops - nobody knows.



Ratt - Round And Round (Official Video) - YouTube


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> "“A person's true nature is revealed at times of the greatest adversity."
> -Daisaku Ikeda
> 
> "She has shown you who she is."
> -Conrad


_"It is difficulties that show what men are."_ *- Epictetus*

It's definitely a common truism amongst the philosophers.


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> He is smart because he knows: *what I don't*


I thought the whole thing was adorable, but that line really struck me.  D7 sounds very clever, Z.


----------



## zillard

Just finished first session with D7s new therapist. Solo this time without kiddo. 

She seems very capable, is experienced, asked the right questions and was insightful. She'll be connecting with Ds previous therapist before the next session. 

My task for the week is to have a conversation with D7 informing her that I am dating. It's important to keep that communication open so she doesn't hear about it second hand and feel left out. She is incredibly observant and holding off will not be good and appear that I am hiding something bad from her. 

We discussed how and when to introduce Tiger. I laid out my thoughts and asked the therapist if that seemed the correct direction to take. 

I think first encounters should be in a group setting, and she confirmed. Nothing like a family dinner. 

She cautioned to make sure I know where I stand in the relationship before doing anything more, as D7 does not need a revolved door of new moms. I agree.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Just finished first session with D7s new therapist. Solo this time without kiddo.
> 
> She seems very capable, is experienced, asked the right questions and was insightful. She'll be connecting with Ds previous therapist before the next session.
> 
> My task for the week is to have a conversation with D7 informing her that I am dating. It's important to keep that communication open so she doesn't hear about it second hand and feel left out. She is incredibly observant and holding off will not be good and appear that I am hiding something bad from her.
> 
> We discussed how and when to introduce Tiger. I laid out my thoughts and asked the therapist if that seemed the correct direction to take.
> 
> I think first encounters should be in a group setting, and she confirmed. Nothing like a family dinner.
> 
> She cautioned to make sure I know where I stand in the relationship before doing anything more, as D7 does not need a revolved door of new moms. I agree.


It's good you found a capable therapist for D7. It can come in handy especially during first few months. I think it's still early to introduce T.


----------



## zillard

X now won't talk to me on the phone. lol

Z - I would like to talk to you about D7's new therapist. Please call when you are available. (She does still have joint legal custody, so needs to be included in medical decisions).

X - Please email me. 

Nooo problemo.


----------



## zillard

Had a talk last night with D7 about dating. 

D - You're doing that now, aren't you. (nothing gets past this one)

Z - I am. How do you feel about that. 

D - I'm worried that you won't like Mom anymore. 

So I did a lot of reinforcing the usual. We are divorced now and not getting back together. I will always care about her mom, but it is different now. She will always be special to me and she will always be her mom. Mom is always Mom and Dad is always Dad. 

D - So who are you dating? Do you like any of them? I think it's the one that got you the father's day present.

See what I mean about her being observant. Kids are much more observant than we often expect. Clearly she'd been thinking on this and it's better to talk about it than to avoid doing so.

Later she was following me around as I gathered laundry. She saw a book on the end table by my bed. 

D - Dad, what's Four Agreements?

Z - It's a book about how to be a better person.

D - Why do you need to do that? 

Z - So I can be a better Dad.

D - You don't need to be a better Dad. I like you just the way you are. 

I melted a little inside.


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> X now won't talk to me on the phone. lol
> 
> Z - I would like to talk to you about D7's new therapist. Please call when you are available. (She does still have joint legal custody, so needs to be included in medical decisions).
> 
> X - Please email me.
> 
> Nooo problemo.


I guess she is annoyed with you for 'taking' her daughter away. so she wants to give you a 'taste of your own medicine', as she perceives it. whenever you have enforced boundaries, she has not realised that it is because you are communicating your needs with her. instead she probably feels that you are showing your resentment of her by treating her in a 'cold and emotionless' manner. so she thinks she is giving you the same treatment.

of course in the end it is her loss completely.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> D - You don't need to be a better Dad. I like you just the way you are.



I must have got something in my eye after reading this.


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> I guess she is annoyed with you for 'taking' her daughter away. so she wants to give you a 'taste of your own medicine', as she perceives it. whenever you have enforced boundaries, she has not realised that it is because you are communicating your needs with her. instead she probably feels that you are showing your resentment of her by treating her in a 'cold and emotionless' manner. so she thinks she is giving you the same treatment.
> 
> of course in the end it is her loss completely.


Yes. 

"You're not being assertive. You're being a d!ck!"


----------



## BWBill

_I guess she is annoyed with you for 'taking' her daughter away. so she wants to give you a 'taste of your own medicine', as she perceives it._

From Zillard's threads I think either she doesn't want to be a mother or has some resentments regarding her daughter. "Send an email" translates to "I don't want to deal with it."


----------



## Mavash.

Agree. She couldn't be bothered to be a mother there and she sure can't be bothered from a distance.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Zillard, I finally made it through your old thread and now the new over the past week or so. All I can say is WOW. Your thread made me alternate at times from joy, anger, sadness (and tears), hope, and everything in between.

I agree with others that your story should be required reading for new TAMers. I'm inspired by you. Our stories are somewhat similar. I've not been as strong as you at times but I'll get there eventually. I'm sorry you had to go through all of that (and are still going through some of the remnants) but I'm truly inspired by the way you've handled things. (And maybe a little jealous if I'm honest, but I always use those feelings to want to do better myself.) Rock on brother. please keep posting updates so that I and others can follow your journey and work to be better men ourselves. :smthumbup:


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> Yes.
> 
> "You're not being assertive. You're being a d!ck!"


I feel this way tonight. Today would have marked our 9th anniversary (I suppose it still does since D is not officially done). I was triggering badly today and posted on my thread this morning with an update. I did good today and did not contact, except to check on D7 and then to wish D7 goodnight. When I called tonight she handed the phone to D7 immediately. Normally there is some attempted chit chat by STBX before talking to D7, and I could almost _feel _how angry she was through the phone that I had not contacted her about the anniversary. 

The codependent part of me wanted to be able to tell her "no, I didn't forget, but I've been fired as a husband and am no longer required to acknowledge this date". But I didn't. Why do I care if she's angry? This is what she chose afterall. :scratchhead:


----------



## hope4family

TheGoodGuy said:


> I feel this way tonight. Today would have marked our 9th anniversary (I suppose it still does since D is not officially done).  I was triggering badly today and posted on my thread this morning with an update. I did good today and did not contact, except to check on D7 and then to wish D7 goodnight. When I called tonight she handed the phone to D7 immediately. Normally there is some attempted chit chat by STBX before talking to D7, and I could almost _feel _how angry she was through the phone that I had not contacted her about the anniversary.
> 
> The codependent part of me wanted to be able to tell her "no, I didn't forget, but I've been fired as a husband and am no longer required to acknowledge this date". But I didn't. Why do I care if she's angry? This is what she chose afterall. :scratchhead:


Reading stuff like this. I am kinda glad my marriage only made it 2 years.


----------



## Chuck71

hope4family said:


> Reading stuff like this. I am kinda glad my marriage only made it 2 years.


:rofl:
:iagree:


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> Agree. She couldn't be bothered to be a mother there and she sure can't be bothered from a distance.


Right. 

Early this week I emailed her, asking if she had a free Skype account set up because D7 wants to Skype her (as discussed in joint sessions with X and D7). 

... no response yet.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Right.
> 
> Early this week I emailed her, asking if she had a free Skype account set up because D7 wants to Skype her (as discussed in joint sessions with X and D7).
> 
> ... no response yet.


Strike 2 since the move?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Strike 2 since the move?


No strikes. She's playing a completely different sport.


----------



## zillard

Tiger's disloyal X found out about us. 

Apparently sent T "one of those" emails. He was distraught when he found out, wants to remain close friends, etc. 

I am not surprised. It's something we see here all the time. 

Watching and observing.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Tiger's disloyal X found out about us.
> 
> Apparently sent T "one of those" emails. He was distraught when he found out, wants to remain close friends, etc.
> 
> I am not surprised. It's something we see here all the time.
> 
> Watching and observing.


What was the content of his email? 

Was it the jealous accusatory type or the type feigning concern for her well-being?


----------



## hope4family

Forget how T and how "the other guy" feels. How are you feeling about this Z?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> What was the content of his email?
> 
> Was it the jealous accusatory type or the type feigning concern for her well-being?


The "I'm glad you are happy, but I am such a victim. Why can't we be friends" type. 

He's recently stepped up his involvement with their daughter too. Wanting to see her more often, which T sees as weird and unexpected. 

I don't. I think even after the LC she's enforced, he's likely making attempts to reclaim territory, plan B. 

How do I feel about it? 

Amused. It's part of the cheater script. They've been split for almost 2 years and he's made attempts to flaunt each new escapade due to her 180 and LC, FB block, etc. Now she has a new "boyfriend" and he's jelly.


----------



## zillard

I was surprised that I don't feel threatened. 

Little Z definitely would have. But really what is there to fear? 

How she handles him is up to her. Not my place and not in my control. It's actually a great opportunity for me to see more.


----------



## hope4family

Ya'know I never thought it was part of the cheater script.

This might explain my ex's sudden interest in having my son more. That and well the batshat crazy part.

Edit: I had a female friend over for a party during a child swap and they met. 2 days later, some mutual friends caught me and same said girl eating lunch.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I was surprised that I don't feel threatened.
> 
> Little Z definitely would have. But really what is there to fear?
> 
> How she handles him is up to her. Not my place and not in my control. It's actually a great opportunity for me to see more.


I was about to say this. 

Take a step a back and watch how it unfolds.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Ya'know I never thought it was part of the cheater script.
> 
> This might explain my ex's sudden interest in having my son more. That and well the batshat crazy part.


When the betrayed moves on, and the disloyal has not (truly)... 

Mrs. RG - why won't you fight for me.
Mrs. Garry starting to send lists.
X - Please don't move.

etc.


----------



## Pbartender

While it was likely instigated by her Toxic Friends, I don't think there was any coincidence between me beginning to go out and meet women, and AXW's sudden decision to fight for extra custody time and full child support.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> While it was likely instigated by her Toxic Friends, I don't think there was any coincidence between me beginning to go out and meet women, and AXW's sudden decision to fight for extra custody time and full child support.


Yes.

T's X "stepping up" and wanting more time with his daughter began when I arrived. 

He did ask her if I was the real deal and if I'd been around their daughter. 

I see the potential for drama there. But their situation is their's.


----------



## hope4family

Question to the single Fathers in the room. 

I do not care that my ex-wife has a boyfriend as in "moving on". 

That being said, should I be curious about it in the sense of for my son? Frankly she hasn't told me. So it's none of my business until she feels like its OK. 

But my son knows. He may be 23 months. But he isn't a moron.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Question to the single Fathers in the room.
> 
> I do not care that my ex-wife has a boyfriend as in "moving on".
> 
> That being said, should I be curious about it in the sense of for my son? Frankly she hasn't told me. So it's none of my business until she feels like its OK.
> 
> But my son knows. He may be 23 months. But he isn't a moron.


I knew X was bringing Ringo around D7. 

I said nothing. I asked nothing.

Unless I have reason to believe that he is a dangerous felon or has a record of any sort of child abuse (which would violate our decree), it is none of my business. 

I am here to talk to D7 about it, should she bring it up. But I will not ask her about it either.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I knew X was bringing Ringo around D7.
> 
> I said nothing. I asked nothing.
> 
> Unless I have reason to believe that he is a dangerous felon or has a record of any sort of child abuse (which would violate our decree), it is none of my business.
> 
> I am here to talk to D7 about it, should she bring it up. But I will not ask her about it either.


I agree. Plus Hope, your kid is a baby still and doesn't understand things quite yet. I'd probably look into his background though. Felony charges, etc.


----------



## zillard

My awesome D7 rode a bike with no training wheels for the first time today! 

"Can I have an ice cream sandwich before dinner because I accomplished that?"

Time to hit up the bike shop so I can ride with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

She does sound like an awesome little girl, Z. I hated missing special moments like that in my DS' life, but I have no choice. To think your X is _choosing_ to stay out of D7's life is truly mind-boggling to me.


----------



## zillard

I observed something a little weird this weekend. 

T invited me to her friend's wedding. We both dressed up and looked fantastic. It was actually a great time. 

She was wearing a lot of jewelry so I didn't notice at first. But during the ceremony she was holding my hand and I noticed she had a ring on her ring finger, left hand. It didn't really look like a wedding ring and she had a couple others on too, but...

I didn't say anything. After the ceremony I took a bathroom break. When I came back out and sat down she mentioned that someone had just referred to me as her husband. 

Z - Well, you do have a ring on your finger. 

She did seem surprised and moved it to her other hand. I then joked that because I'm not wearing one people probably think I'm her AP boy toy. 

She explained that she has a few fake wedding rings she wears to work in order to fend off unwanted advances. Put it on out of habit. 

I'm a bit skeptical though.


----------



## hope4family

Observe. 

Very odd.


----------



## vi_bride04

Women know full well what wearing a ring on their left hand ring finger means. Having "fake" wedding rings is just weird, IMO. 

Why would wearing a ring fend off advances? Wouldn't people at the office know eventually that she really wasn't married? 

If it wasn't a big deal, why did she move the ring to her other hand after you noticed? 

If you are skeptical, listen to yourself


----------



## zillard

advances from customers, not coworkers


----------



## hope4family

I've heard of people doing this. Women wearing "rings" on their wedding fingers to thwart off men. 

Problem is, it only thwarts nice guys. Not the other way around.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I've heard of people doing this. Women wearing "rings" on their wedding fingers to thwart off men.
> 
> Problem is, it only thwarts nice guys. Not the other way around.


Yeah, I've known women who do this. 

But it is weird for a girlfriend to do at a wedding, if intentional. 

An attempt to plant a seed? Or scatterbrain? 

She has confided that she still gets first date jitters/butterflies when meeting me.


----------



## hope4family

I really dont think its a real red flag. I'd watch for other behavior patterns. She has a lot going on in her life. Ex drama, you in her life, your kid in her life, you in her kids life. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a subliminal message. The question is, does that bother you?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I really dont think its a real red flag. I'd watch for other behavior patterns. She has a lot going on in her life. Ex drama, you in her life, your kid in her life, you in her kids life.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if it was a subliminal message. The question is, does that bother you?


If she's feeling that, no, it doesn't bother me. Even though I'm nowhere near considering marriage. I already know she has feelings for me and wants long term.

But if it was calculated and intentional then it's a bit manipulative, which would bother me.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Yeah, I've known women who do this.
> 
> But it is weird for a girlfriend to do at a wedding, if intentional.
> 
> An attempt to plant a seed? Or scatterbrain?
> 
> She has confided that she still gets first date jitters/butterflies when meeting me.


I agree. It's weird.

Women aren't that naive about what jewelry they are wearing...especially at a function like a wedding! She knew you were coming as her date....:scratchhead:

Huh. You're savvy enough to observe. I'd consider it a mini-red flag. Or why else post it here?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Yeah, I've known women who do this.
> 
> But it is weird for a girlfriend to do at a wedding, if intentional.
> 
> An attempt to plant a seed? Or scatterbrain?
> 
> *She has confided that she still gets first date jitters/butterflies when meeting me*.


I don't like the bolded part. Screams "damsel in distress", at least to me. And we all know said damsels are hawt!


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> It didn't really look like a wedding ring.
> 
> When I came back out and sat down she mentioned that someone had just referred to me as her husband.
> 
> Z - Well, you do have a ring on your finger.
> 
> She did seem surprised and moved it to her other hand.
> 
> She explained that she has a few fake wedding rings she wears to work in order to fend off unwanted advances. Put it on out of habit.
> 
> I'm a bit skeptical though.


She baited you but you fueled it.

Not a deal breaker and everybody manipulates to get what they want.

It's human nature and not all negative.

I said similar things to my now husband.

I just thought he was just so awesome and can you blame me for wanting to snare him for my very own?

Lol

Edited to add we've been married 21 years so yes I caught him.


----------



## hope4family

ThreeStrikes said:


> I don't like the bolded part. Screams "damsel in distress", at least to me. And we all know said damsels are hawt!


I wouldn't say damsel in distress. 

She might be succumbing to the natural drug of affection. We talk about it all the time here, and almost everyone is guilty of it. 

You got to let the drug run its course long enough for the crazy parts to continue to show. 

I'll kinda side with you and say mini-red flag. But the more I think about it, the more I think it's probably harmless. Unless Z starts talking marriage.


----------



## Mavash.

Mini red flag.

Yes I'll agree with that.


----------



## hope4family

Mavash. said:


> She baited you but you fueled it.
> 
> Not a deal breaker and everybody manipulates to get what they want.
> 
> *It's human nature and not all negative.*
> 
> I said similar things to my now husband.
> 
> I just thought he was just so awesome and can you blame me for wanting to snare him for my very own?
> 
> Lol
> 
> Edited to add we've been married 21 years so yes I caught him.


Ha, this is what I have been meaning to say. Thanks Mavash. Very insightful.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> She baited you but you fueled it.
> 
> Not a deal breaker and everybody manipulates to get what they want.
> 
> It's human nature and not all negative.
> 
> I said similar things to my now husband.
> 
> *I just thought he was just so awesome and can you blame me for wanting to snare him for my very own?*


I believe this is spot on. She has said other things alluding to this. I think the "L" word is on the tip of her tongue, ready to come out - but waiting for something similar from me before proceeding.

I don't see the ring thing as a huge red flag, nor a deal breaker. It's just been one of the first things to pop up in the questionable column so far. 

With frequent communication for 5 months, vacation together, and a month here in the new place I think that's pretty dam excellent!


----------



## Mavash.

We exchanged I love you's at week 6.

He said it first as I would never do that back then.

I knew I was in love with him by the third date.


----------



## hope4family

Personally, I wouldn't say it first. 

I'm projecting what I want to do going forward though.


----------



## ReGroup

You guys are making me depressed with all this lovey dovey stuff.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> We exchanged I love you's at week 6.
> 
> He said it first as I would never do that back then.
> 
> I knew I was in love with him by the third date.


I came close a few times already, but held myself back.

It's very different this time around. I absolutely love the time we spend together and look forward to seeing her again. Yet I'm completely comfortable when our schedules don't line up and I can't. 

I'm not holding back due to fear of rejection, like I would have in the past. 

I want to make sure. Be impeccable with your word.


----------



## Mavash.

ReGroup said:


> You guys are making me depressed with all this lovey dovey stuff.


My friend that I coached much like I do you ended her 10 year toxic marriage.

She getting remarried in a week.

She gets it as do you.

Your time is coming I promise.


----------



## Ceegee

ReGroup said:


> You guys are making me depressed with all this lovey dovey stuff.


It should make you excited for the future Group.


----------



## zillard

It's been said many times on TAM that people come into our lives to teach us. 

I know my X certainly did. I learned more than I ever could have imagined from her. 

It should be added that once you have learned what you can from them, another jumps into your life. Sometimes with lightning speed. 

What is Tiger here to teach me? 

I'm excited to find out.


----------



## Mavash.

Z sometimes they aren't here to teach you.

You are there to teach THEM. 

I say this because I learn most by helping others grow.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> Z sometimes they aren't here to teach you.
> 
> You are there to teach THEM.
> 
> I say this because I learn most by helping others grow.


Well I hope it is mutual. 

I want to learn more.


----------



## hope4family

I like putting it this way. 

With everything you have been through. This for both of you is a breathe of fresh air. Enjoy it all for what it is. Breathe. Enjoy the "good feeling" rush.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Well I hope it is mutual.
> 
> I want to learn more.


"Much to learn you still have...my old padawan."


----------



## zillard

I do find myself teaching her at times.

"I've noticed I do XYZ and I'm not sure why"

Z - when you figure that out, you'll be cracking the code.

"I'm open to suggestions"

Z - Well... I've found that when I do ABC it's because of...

So yes, I am learning from her. I'm learning how to help without fixing. 

By refusing to jump and offer solutions I show that I am confident in her abilities. And I do not take her learning opportunity from her in order to play a hero. 

Which leaves us both feeling good.


----------



## Conrad

Mavash. said:


> Z sometimes they aren't here to teach you.
> 
> You are there to teach THEM.
> 
> I say this because I learn most by helping others grow.


Second!


----------



## zillard

On a side note (yes, X, you are now a side note):

It has been a week since I emailed X about setting up an account so D7 could Skype her - no response. 

She also has not responded to my email about D7's new therapist, nor multiple emails from the old child therapist asking for a release of info form so the two ICs can talk.

But D7 and I had a chance encounter with my former toxic friend again (felon), so I sent her the required notification of the encounter, per our decree. Once again I told him I was no longer available to him as a friend, because he is a trigger for me. 

She did respond to that.


----------



## ReGroup

zillard said:


> By refusing to jump and offer solutions I show that I am confident in her abilities. And I do not take her learning opportunity from her in order to play hero.


I find myself struggling with this.

My "safe" person is female and she is working on her co dependency as well. We talk to each other all the time and she seeks me to vent at times. 

I find myself itching to offer suggestions at each turn. Sometimes I slip because I feel I know the right answer.

I'll keep practicing.


----------



## zillard

ReGroup said:


> I find myself struggling with this.
> 
> My "safe" person is female and she is working on her co dependency as well. We talk to each other all the time and she seeks me to vent at times.
> 
> I find myself itching to offer suggestions at each turn. Sometimes I slip because I feel I know the right answer.
> 
> I'll keep practicing.


It's Not About The Nail - YouTube

It's her nail. She needs to pull it out. 

Offering sympathy and stories of how you removed your own will enable her to see the nail. Should she choose.


----------



## hope4family

ReGroup said:


> I find myself struggling with this.
> 
> My "safe" person is female and she is working on her co dependency as well. We talk to each other all the time and she seeks me to vent at times.
> 
> I find myself itching to offer suggestions at each turn. Sometimes I slip because I feel I know the right answer.
> 
> I'll keep practicing.


Try this answer. 

That's terrible. What are you going to do about that?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Try this answer.
> 
> That's terrible. What are you going to do about that?


This one is good too:

If that happened again, how would you approach things differently?


----------



## hope4family

One thing I have done to counter my fixer personality. 

Is become more outgoing. Speak my mind more, worry about what people think about it less. 

What happens when I do this. People usually end up coming to me for advice. No, I dont always say something pretty either.


----------



## Mavash.

ReGroup said:


> I find myself struggling with this.
> 
> My "safe" person is female and she is working on her co dependency as well. We talk to each other all the time and she seeks me to vent at times.
> 
> I find myself itching to offer suggestions at each turn. Sometimes I slip because I feel I know the right answer.
> 
> I'll keep practicing.


This comes from within.

When you 'get it' you see that it's not up to you to solve someone else's problems.

Took me a year or so for me to understand this.

Before I felt important because I knew the 'right' answer.

Now my importance comes from putting faith in others.

I lift people up instead of offering suggestions.

I offer gentle suggestions here because its requested and because I like playing amateur therapist. Lol


----------



## zillard

I'm off to a guided meditation group with Tiger. 

This will be a first for me.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I'm off to a guided meditation group with Tiger.
> 
> This will be a first for me.


We'll need a full report.


----------



## zillard

Wow. That was great. 

1/2 hour guided meditation, then tea, and discussions about Buddhism and mindfulness for another 45 minutes. It was led by a woman working on a PhD in ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy). 

It was amazing how nearly all of it correlated with the TAM codependency work and DeMello's teachings on awareness (mindfulness). 

While it was my first experience with Buddhism and guided meditation in a group setting, I strangely did not feel like a novice.

This will now be part of my weekly routine - Tiger or none. 

Such a nice, calming, inspiring evening.


----------



## zillard

e·qua·nim·i·ty 

Mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, esp. in a difficult situation.
---

Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> e·qua·nim·i·ty
> 
> Mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, esp. in a difficult situation.
> ---
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.


My book i'm reading is teaching me to find this.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> e·qua·nim·i·ty
> 
> Mental calmness, composure, and evenness of temper, esp. in a difficult situation.
> ---
> 
> Cool. Firm. Dispassionate.


This is really where i need to grow. I am still too fired up to be this.


----------



## zillard

I had such a great day yesterday. 

Today is a different story. Feeling grief setting in, but not for X. 

My brother and best friend passed away 8 years ago today. I'm noticing that being back in our old stomping grounds - and around my family - has amplified the feeling of loss. 

It's easier to push things back down when not surrounded by reminders. But that is the wrong thing to do. Something I did for too long.

Taking a drive to the cemetery to visit his grave for the first time since returning. First time in a few years actually.

Time to purge.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> I had such a great day yesterday.
> 
> Today is a different story. Feeling grief setting in, but not for X.
> 
> My brother and best friend passed away 8 years ago today. I'm noticing that being back in our old stomping grounds - and around my family - has amplified the feeling of loss.
> 
> It's easier to push things back down when not surrounded by reminders. But that is the wrong thing to do. Something I did for too long.
> 
> Taking a drive to the cemetery to visit his grave for the first time since returning. First time in a few years actually.
> 
> Time to purge.


I too have days of automatic grief. 

It's normal and healthy. Even if it is a drastic up an down from yesterday.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I had such a great day yesterday.
> 
> Today is a different story. Feeling grief setting in, but not for X.
> 
> My brother and best friend passed away 8 years ago today. I'm noticing that being back in our old stomping grounds - and around my family - has amplified the feeling of loss.
> 
> It's easier to push things back down when not surrounded by reminders. But that is the wrong thing to do. Something I did for too long.
> 
> Taking a drive to the cemetery to visit his grave for the first time since returning. First time in a few years actually.
> 
> Time to purge.


It's ok to feel sad about losing loved ones. It's part of life. But I know the ups and downs are hard at times.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Sorry to hear Z, give yourself time to feel it, best way to honor them.


----------



## Chuck71

I still get moments about pop dying, I was 23, was in mid 90s

we had our tense moments but it was not 'that bad'

I still ask myself at times "what would pop do in this situation"

On the ring, why would she wear one, of all places to a wedding

when you were accompanying her?


----------



## zillard

Even though yesterday was rough, it was therapeutic. 

I gave myself some time to grieve, then went out with my brother for a few drinks. We kept it mellow, unlike other years, and had some good conversation. 

Then finished up my evening with some D7 time, then a call with Tiger. 

I did call her out on the ring and how I felt it was weird. We had a good talk about it.


The other day we met at a coffee shop before going out to eat. She was late (circumstances out of her control). It didn't bother me - I was enjoying my time sitting on the patio in the sun. Plus she kept me informed and apologized. 

When she arrived she was nearly running. Told me she was thinking about a conversation we had a month or so ago when I said I felt that tardiness is disrespectful and shows that the other person is not a priority. So she ran, thinking "you ARE a priority". 

I thought it was cute.


----------



## hope4family

That made me smile.


----------



## zillard

I got a call from X. 

She informed me that she is moving in two weeks...

to California to be closer to her grandparents. 

Because they need her and there is nothing keeping her there.


That last line is complete BS. It has little to do with what they need and more about what they can give her. 

The novelty of Ringo's truck must've worn off. :rofl:


----------



## Lifescript

Midway through your post I smiled thinking she was moving close to you and DS. 

She's so lost.


----------



## zillard

Z - Do you want me to tell D7 or are you going to?

X - I will when I call her tonight.

Z - Before you leave will you please sign the release form for the child psych?

X - Oh I got that done yesterday. So everything is taken care of.

(except the Skype account, providing health insurance, paying for D's cell phone, and, and, and).

I don't envy D7 tonight. She's going to see right through this.


----------



## BWBill

_*The novelty of Ringo's truck must've worn off.*_

Their relationship was doomed when she lost her job. He wasn't going to carry her and he dumped her.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Z - Do you want me to tell D7 or are you going to?
> 
> X - I will when I call her tonight.
> 
> Z - Before you leave will you please sign the release form for the child psych?
> 
> X - Oh I got that done yesterday. So everything is taken care of.
> 
> (except the Skype account, providing health insurance, paying for D's cell phone, and, and, and).
> 
> I don't envy D7 tonight. She's going to see right through this.


*sigh


----------



## Conrad

What a basket case.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> What a basket case.


It makes sense. Move closer to the rich enablers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> I got a call from X.
> 
> She informed me that she is moving in two weeks...
> 
> to California to be closer to her grandparents.
> 
> Because they need her and there is nothing keeping her there.
> 
> 
> That last line is complete BS. It has little to do with what they need and more about what they can give her.
> 
> The novelty of Ringo's truck must've worn off. :rofl:


honestly, does this surprise you at all? it shouldn't


----------



## ReGroup

Call me an idiot but I am an shock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> honestly, does this surprise you at all? it shouldn't


It doesn't. Last week I told my ma it would probably happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> It doesn't. Last week I told my ma it would probably happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No job, no Ringo, no safety net, no friends, no old fixer Z, no D7

she must go where there are still people who will pick her up

take it to the bank, she will free fall


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It makes sense. Move closer to the rich enablers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Users gravitate towards enablers.


----------



## 06Daddio08

And this is why having one stable parent in divorces with children is so vital.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> And this is why having one stable parent in divorces with children is so vital.


Some would say you should never ever move a child away from her mother. 

Can you imagine the unnecessary crap I would have put us both through by pulling a monumental #3 staying put for x's convenience?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Some would say you should never ever move a child away from her mother.
> 
> Can you imagine the unnecessary crap I would have put us both through by pulling a monumental #3 staying put for x's convenience?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, but she simply couldn't see her way clear to move.

I'm sure you understand.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Some would say you should never ever move a child away from her mother.
> 
> Can you imagine the unnecessary crap I would have put us both through by pulling a monumental #3 staying put for x's convenience?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a very compelling idea.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Some would say you should never ever move a child away from her mother.
> 
> Can you imagine the unnecessary crap I would have put us both through by pulling a monumental #3 staying put for x's convenience?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree to the second paragraph, staying for the sake of a lazy parent who only wants to be a parent when it's convenient, is a no go. As sad as it is for the child in the middle.

As for moving a child away from a mother, I believe it's just as important in regards to a father. I also believe that the number of horrid mothers is on par with the number of horrid fathers. The same can be said about good parents, and even spouses. The thing is, the pairing of two healthy individuals from the start is a rare thing.

Those who want to learn and grow, do so, regardless of how many years it took and how difficult the road was. The rest, fall to the side and will simply find a new fixer, enabler or someone else who has fallen.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> Some would say you should never ever move a child away from her mother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people have no idea how bad some mothers are.


----------



## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> Some people have no idea how bad some mothers are.


Too many around here do.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

06Daddio08 said:


> As for moving a child away from a mother, I believe it's just as important in regards to a father. I also believe that the number of horrid mothers is on par with the number of horrid fathers. The same can be said about good parents, and even spouses. The thing is, the pairing of two healthy individuals from the start is a rare thing.
> 
> Those who want to learn and grow, do so, regardless of how many years it took and how difficult the road was. The rest, fall to the side and will simply find a new fixer, enabler or someone else who has fallen.


I've often thought (and said a time or two) that TAM has shown me how many wonderful men are out there and how many dysfunctional people are out there!

I think the learning and growth was one important aspect of my divorce and parenting post-divorce. I spent time reading books, attending counseling both alone and with my daughter and the courts, attorneys, custody advocates, social services... they all saw I made great efforts to be the best parent I could be and deal with the circumstances of an ex with NPD. It was even noted in the psych eval that "mother appears to be motivated to continually strive to improve her parenting skills; father does not appear to be similarly motivated" (cause he's perfect already). 

I think it was so helpful for D14, then years 5-10. So yeah, at least ONE parent has to be good for the child and be their rock.


----------



## zillard

D7 had her call with X last night. 

I could tell as soon as the move was being discussed as D grew quiet and stuck to short responses.

D - But why? ....Hmmm."

We talked about it afterward. I asked how she felt about it. 

D - It's kind of cool, but kind of weird.

Z - What do you mean by weird?

D - It's just weird.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> D7 had her call with X last night.
> 
> I could tell as soon as the move was being discussed as D grew quiet and stuck to short responses.
> 
> D - But why? ....Hmmm."
> 
> We talked about it afterward. I asked how she felt about it.
> 
> D - It's kind of cool, but kind of weird.
> 
> Z - What do you mean by weird?
> 
> D - It's just weird.


I'm really glad she didn't instantly connect the dots.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I think the weird was connecting the dots. The cool means she's sort of OK with things just the way they are with ZDad.  Or the idea of visiting CA sounds fun.


----------



## Mavash.

CA is cool but its weird that she's moving there instead of near her.

I'm glad she hasn't connected the dots yet either.


----------



## Chuck71

I want an update in 2027, or we will hunt you down

Oscar Wilde “Children begin by loving their parents; as they grow older they judge them; sometimes they forgive them.”


----------



## 06Daddio08

EnjoliWoman said:


> I've often thought (and said a time or two) that TAM has shown me how many wonderful men are out there and how many dysfunctional people are out there!
> 
> I think the learning and growth was one important aspect of my divorce and parenting post-divorce. I spent time reading books, attending counseling both alone and with my daughter and the courts, attorneys, custody advocates, social services... they all saw I made great efforts to be the best parent I could be and deal with the circumstances of an ex with NPD. It was even noted in the psych eval that "mother appears to be motivated to continually strive to improve her parenting skills; father does not appear to be similarly motivated" (cause he's perfect already).
> 
> I think it was so helpful for D14, then years 5-10. So yeah, at least ONE parent has to be good for the child and be their rock.


That's great for an eval writeup! One of the first things I ever heard in the required course where I live was; One good parent is better than none. At the same time though, that parent cannot over compensate for the other parent. As it will eventually feel that way to the child and wear out the parent who's making the effort.


----------



## zillard

Yes. One of the first things the child psych told me:

"Quit doing her share of the parenting!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> Yes. One of the first things the child psych told me:
> 
> "Quit doing her share of the parenting!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah. It can be very hard at times though, the ex and I had our problems between us and the marriage but we did a pretty good job with agreeing on HOW to parent. So things like bedtime, daily routines and such didn't really change between our homes, at least for now that is.

With that though, it made it somewhat easier to keep the discipline going like it once did but with adjustments. Those adjustments came from myself and the new way I looked at things.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

06Daddio08 said:


> ...At the same time though, that parent cannot over compensate for the other parent. As it will eventually feel that way to the child and wear out the parent who's making the effort.





zillard said:


> Yes. One of the first things the child psych told me:
> 
> "Quit doing her share of the parenting!"


Agreed. My counselor told me to stop telling him everything - i.e. every parent night, remind him of every appointment, or every activity... Yes, share info but he needs to seek the info out himself. Get on the email lists, check the school website... I was doing that FOR him. 

After the couple years I stopped - by then he should know there's an open house every summer in August so look it up like I do. Same thing with winter programs etc. Now she's old enough to tell him herself - it really annoys me that he constantly texts her asking "what time is the meet?" or "when is the last day of school?" I never have to ask her those things because I check.

Obviously if something comes home to my attention and he needs to know about it I email or scan/email - I don't withhold information, I just had to stop being the wife still. 

Regarding the parental alienation issue I was trying to compensate for him and realized she needed one consistent rock. I needed to appear 'not guilty' of all the stuff he accused me of. I don't need to beg for her love - I need to show her through consistency that I'm a reliable, loving parent and whatever he does has no affect on me. She still has chores, homework, bedtime, etc. I don't curry favor to her out of fear she'll want to go live with Dad. 

And I learned to not sugar coat her father's failings. I thought I was protecting her by never saying anything bad about him. I learned that being honest about his shortcomings is perfectly fine. Bashing no, but recognizing that he's usually late and that I find that rude and inconsiderate and expressing that to her is FINE. Admitting he has a mental illness and explaining the diagnosis to her and how it impacted our marriage was OK. 

I think your D will be just fine with a solid father like you.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Yes. One of the first things the child psych told me:
> 
> "Quit doing her share of the parenting!"


My counselor said it a different way... "It is not your responsibility to remind her of her responsibilities."


----------



## Chuck71

My counselor said, "When you come for a meeting, bring a twelve pack and a pizza."


----------



## TheGoodGuy

I like your counselor chuck. Wish mine would say the same thing. It would be even cooler since she's a good looking chick. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

D7 and I went camping this weekend with a large group of friends and family. We had a blast floating on the lake, making smores, badminton.

Tiger joined us. We discussed it in length beforehand and established boundaries - and also made the others aware. 

She drove herself. No relationship talk. No PDA. Separate tent/food/etc just like everyone else.

I'm not deluded enough to think that D is not an observant little sponge, which is why this only happened after we talked about me dating. 

It was amazing how well they got along. D really likes her. It was good to see. But that's the danger with children, isn't it. Getting along too well, too soon.

Tiger and I are on the same page though. This is merely a single step of many - and each will need to be handled delicately. It is not a grand entrance into D's life - a flinging open of the doors. No dinners together at the apartment, etc. 

D7 asked me if she can put her new friend's number in her phone, so she can tell Tiger when it's ok to come over.

That is a no. The purpose of the mobile phone is talking with her mother. The importance of that must remain intact. And I will make those decisions... not D7.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Well played Z. I'm rooting for you and hope I can be where you are very soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

How are you Z?


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> How are you Z?


I'm doing well, thanks. 

D7 had her first IC session with the new child psych, solo this time. She came out in a good mood and said she likes the therapist. For her first session with her I see that as a success. 

D7 and I had an excellent holiday. Small steps with Tiger continue. 

The night of the third my BIL invited us to watch the city fireworks from the fire station. A bunch of firefighters and their families and friends. I saw the group setting as another opportunity and invited Tiger and her daughter. 

All the kids had an excellent time running around playing - D7 and TD3 got along very well. 

The day of the 4th I let it go a step further. We met up part way to a nice mountain lake and spent a few hours playing in the water just the four of us. Then we split up and D7 and I met up with a big chunk of my family at my brother's house in a neighboring town, for a second firework show (sans T and TD3). 

Friday went back to work to finish up a big project (always nice). 

Saturday I met up with T and TD3 at a car show for a bit. While walking around we ran into my toxic friend - the one I cut off recently. 

He instantly hovered, playing the victim card, whining about his life and how all his family and good friends are turning their backs on him. This was a great opportunity for me to test my resolve against my codependent attachment to him... and in front of Tiger. 

Z - Well what is the common piece there? You've burned all your bridges, man. 

Toxic Friend - "insert victim drivel here"

Z - So what's the problem? 

Toxic Friend - "insert victim drivel here"

Z - I'm in a new place now, with a new situation. Take care of yourself. 

He left angry and butt hurt. Oh well. 

Later TD3 had a toddler meltdown/tantrum in the crowds of people. Secretly, inside I was pleased. A good opportunity to observe T in a stressful situation. She performed beautifully. Cool, firm and dispassionate with the child. 

The kid wanted to play on the playground (that was the plan) but would not calm down. She calmly walked on by the playground with a crying, pleading, angry child and went straight to the car. 

She firmly followed through and did not give in to the child's drama.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

Glad things are going well for you. Sounds great.


----------



## zillard

Thanks Script. 

A few other developments/observations.

Tiger's car broke down, right before she was to meet me for lunch one day. She did not call me for help or with excuses. She worked it out on her own and showed up on time for the lunch date. Didn't even tell me about the car until talking to me on the phone that night. 

Car was in the shop for nearly a week. During that time I offered to pick her up. She declined and found her own transportation during that time. Self sufficient and capable. 

When meeting up to go places together, I usually insist on driving. I've noticed though that when I let her drive me instead she is pleased. 

This is good for me too. I never let X drive. If I was in the car with her, I was driving. Period. No discussion. Even on long road trips, I would refuse to let her take a turn. 

It was due to fear and control. Fear due to my brother's fatal car accident (or my feelings about it). Control as a way to cope, an attempt to manage. 

I am learning to let that go. I let T drive my car for the 2 hour trip back from the wedding a while back. I was anxious about it at first, but it was really nice to just sit back and let someone else take the wheel. 

------

The other day D7 was talking about T and her daughter. I asked how she felt about them. She said she really likes them both. 

Z - Do you have any questions for me? 

D - If you got married would I have a step sister? 

Z - IF that ever happened, yes you would. But it wouldn't be anytime soon. How do you feel about that?

D - mmm. Good! 

------

T's ex is throwing new curve balls. 

After repeated, failed efforts by T to get him to agree to a set schedule, he is now requesting precisely that - as if it were his idea. (no surprise)

After previously informing T that he would be introducing their daughter to a new GF (no longer together) he is now expressing concern over me being around the kid. He's claiming it should be taken seriously and only happen after 6 months or so. 

Apparently he is distraught over me "stealing" his family from him. :rofl:

As tempted as I was, I did not offer solutions or advice as she did not ask. Which is good. That situation is hers.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> T's ex is throwing new curve balls.
> 
> After repeated, failed efforts by T to get him to agree to a set schedule, he is now requesting precisely that - as if it were his idea. (no surprise)
> 
> After previously informing T that he would be introducing their daughter to a new GF (no longer together) he is now expressing concern over me being around the kid. He's claiming it should be taken seriously and only happen after 6 months or so.
> 
> Apparently he is distraught over me "stealing" his family from him. :rofl:
> 
> As tempted as I was, I did not offer solutions or advice as she did not ask. Which is good. That situation is hers.


Maybe it's a small trigger of mine. But my heart goes out to you & Tiger in this situation. 

I am glad you are being an adult about it, and not offering help.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Maybe it's a small trigger of mine. But my heart goes out to you & Tiger in this situation.
> 
> I am glad you are being an adult about it, and not offering help.


I think she can handle it. She basically told him that we are taking things seriously, I'm not just some dude she just met, and when he had them he didn't want them anyway. 

If she can't handle it on her own, that will be a red flag. As a blended family situation would be nothing short of difficult. 

And I will not carry all that weight.


----------



## zillard

I went to group meditation again last night. We discussed the four noble truths of buddhism. 

1. Life means suffering.
2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
3. The end of suffering is attainable.
4. There is a path to the end of suffering.

Someone shared a good thought:

Life is difficult. But by being aware of our attachments and aversions, extremely difficult situations become simply difficult. 

I really liked that. 

If difficulty is a given and we drop our assumption that we can live a smooth, conflict-free life... then difficulty ceases to be a problem. 

So by letting go and accepting things as they are, we can attain that which we actually desired - peace - but during conflict rather than only in its absence.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Thanks Script.
> 
> A few other developments/observations.
> 
> Tiger's car broke down, right before she was to meet me for lunch one day. She did not call me for help or with excuses. She worked it out on her own and showed up on time for the lunch date. Didn't even tell me about the car until talking to me on the phone that night.
> 
> Car was in the shop for nearly a week. During that time I offered to pick her up. She declined and found her own transportation during that time. Self sufficient and capable.
> 
> When meeting up to go places together, I usually insist on driving. I've noticed though that when I let her drive me instead she is pleased.
> 
> This is good for me too. I never let X drive. If I was in the car with her, I was driving. Period. No discussion. Even on long road trips, I would refuse to let her take a turn.
> 
> It was due to fear and control. Fear due to my brother's fatal car accident (or my feelings about it). Control as a way to cope, an attempt to manage.
> 
> I am learning to let that go. I let T drive my car for the 2 hour trip back from the wedding a while back. I was anxious about it at first, but it was really nice to just sit back and let someone else take the wheel.
> 
> ------
> 
> The other day D7 was talking about T and her daughter. I asked how she felt about them. She said she really likes them both.
> 
> Z - Do you have any questions for me?
> 
> D - If you got married would I have a step sister?
> 
> Z - IF that ever happened, yes you would. But it wouldn't be anytime soon. How do you feel about that?
> 
> D - mmm. Good!
> 
> ------
> 
> T's ex is throwing new curve balls.
> 
> After repeated, failed efforts by T to get him to agree to a set schedule, he is now requesting precisely that - as if it were his idea. (no surprise)
> 
> After previously informing T that he would be introducing their daughter to a new GF (no longer together) he is now expressing concern over me being around the kid. He's claiming it should be taken seriously and only happen after 6 months or so.
> 
> Apparently he is distraught over me "stealing" his family from him. :rofl:
> 
> As tempted as I was, I did not offer solutions or advice as she did not ask. Which is good. That situation is hers.


Get him a user account.

We'll listen to him vent


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> I went to group meditation again last night. We discussed the four noble truths of buddhism.
> 
> 1. Life means suffering.
> 2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
> 3. The end of suffering is attainable.
> 4. There is a path to the end of suffering.
> 
> Someone shared a good thought:
> 
> Life is difficult. But by being aware of our attachments and aversions, extremely difficult situations become simply difficult.
> 
> I really liked that.
> 
> If difficulty is a given and we drop our assumption that we can live a smooth, conflict-free life... then difficulty ceases to be a problem.
> 
> *So by letting go and accepting things as they are, we can attain that which we actually desired - peace - but during conflict rather than only in its absence*.


Thank you for this. Been having some difficult times this past month. I've been able to deal with conflict relatively well and accepting things as they are, but this latest from my ex had me in tailspins......

This post put things back into perspective.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I think she can handle it. She basically told him that we are taking things seriously, I'm not just some dude she just met, and when he had them he didn't want them anyway.
> 
> If she can't handle it on her own, that will be a red flag. As a blended family situation would be nothing short of difficult.
> 
> And I will not carry all that weight.


Is her ex your old friend?

In the distant past, I remember one of your friends married her.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Is her ex your old friend?
> 
> In the distant past, I remember one of your friends married her.


She married an old friend of mine about a year before I married X. It was full of #3s and didn't last long. They split about 8 years ago, D final 7. No kids. 

This ex, father of her 3yo, is a different guy. They lived together but never married. He was a serial cheater, mentally unstable.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> She married an old friend of mine about a year before I married X. It was full of #3s and didn't last long. They split about 8 years ago, D final 7. No kids.
> 
> This ex, father of her 3yo, is a different guy. They lived together but never married. He was a serial cheater, mentally unstable.


Those are some serious red flags.

I have to say, her current emotional bearing is all the more impressive given that history.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> If she can't handle it on her own, that will be a red flag. As a blended family situation would be nothing short of difficult.
> 
> And I will not carry all that weight.


This thread is shaping up same as the other one, very educational. It's obvious you and T are attracted to each other and things are going great but having graduated from TAM, you refuse to fix which is the right move. Old Z would want to play the hero, right? 

I like how you seem to have a zoomed in approach to everything. Nothing escapes you. 

Learning ...


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Those are some serious red flags.
> 
> I have to say, her current emotional bearing is all the more impressive given that history.


Yes. 

I am not without my own red flags; my own past. Being aware of that and where I am now, I see her own progression as real. 

I see her as she is. Flawed with strength.

She was not ready to be married to my friend. She was too young and immature and ended up checking out of the M. No infidelity, just a guy in touch with his inner old man and a girl with no clue about relationships. 

She was then single for years and eventually found her baby daddy. She overcompensated for past mistakes and became a codependent doormat living with a cheater deadbeat dad. 

You only allow yourself to receive that which you think you deserve.

Then single again - this time with her daughter. I believe this greatly changed her perspective and priorities. 

Without guidance from TAM she has followed many of the steps we encourage here. 

180
NC/LC
Books
Detach from toxic friends
etc. 

I feel good about that.


----------



## hope4family

The problem is red flags are like butts. Everyones got em. 

If you don't, you might be co-dependent in disguise.


----------



## Mavash.

None of us are free from red flags and we all have a past.

This is comforting to me.

Key is in the here and now. 

It's not that hard to see who is thriving and who is stuck once you know what to look for.


----------



## LovesHerMan

Everyone has faults. The key is to pick someone whose faults you can tolerate.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> The problem is red flags are like butts. Everyones got em.


Yes, and I know she sees mine too. 

She has commented that we are both works in progress. But neither of us is a project for the other and we both need to focus on our own problems. 

I have told her that I will not help her unless asked, and only then if I feel good about doing so. It seemed to relieve her - she was appreciative. Likely because it shows I have faith in her. 

I brought up that someone suggested I talk to X about D7 meeting T. 

She asked me if I felt strongly about X doing the same in a reverse situation, and said that she would use that as a base for the decision if it was her's to make.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes, and I know she sees mine too.
> 
> She has commented that we are both works in progress. But neither of us is a project for the other and we both need to focus on our own problems.
> 
> I have told her that I will not help her unless asked, and only then if I feel good about doing so. It seemed to relieve her - she was appreciative. Likely because it shows I have faith in her.
> 
> I brought up that someone suggested I talk to X about D7 meeting T.
> 
> She asked me if I felt strongly about X doing the same in a reverse situation, and said that she would use that as a base for the decision if it was her's to make.


X will do whatever she wants to do at the time.

Did you hear she's moving?


----------



## Mavash.

LovesHerMan said:


> Everyone has faults. The key is to pick someone whose faults you can tolerate.


I said this on another thread. I'll take a nice guy, passive, pleaser over a selfish user any day of the week.

I'm married to passive man but since I understand him I can work with that. I gently coach him that it's okay to speak up and I do my best to make sure his needs are met.

This I can live with.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> X will do whatever she wants to do at the time.
> 
> Did you hear she's moving?


I thought back to Ringo. She did not make me aware of him around D7, but tried very hard to bait me. 

I was not interested. Her private life is hers and mine is mine. I will become involved only if I am aware that D7 is in danger. If I am not aware, it is only assumption and reacting to fear. 

I know D7 is not in danger when around T, so feel no obligation to talk to X about it. She already knows Tiger and trolls her FB anyway.

This morning I saw a new email from X - giving me her new address and letting me know she'll be mailing a package for D7 soon. 

I will not be telling D7 about any packages until they show up on the doorstep.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I went to group meditation again last night. We discussed the four noble truths of buddhism.
> 
> 1. Life means suffering.
> 2. The origin of suffering is attachment.
> 3. The end of suffering is attainable.
> 4. There is a path to the end of suffering.
> 
> Someone shared a good thought:
> 
> Life is difficult. But by being aware of our attachments and aversions, extremely difficult situations become simply difficult.
> 
> I really liked that.
> 
> If difficulty is a given and we drop our assumption that we can live a smooth, conflict-free life... then difficulty ceases to be a problem.
> 
> So by letting go and accepting things as they are, we can attain that which we actually desired - peace - but during conflict rather than only in its absence.


Buddhism is so very similar to some of the stoic philosophy I've been reading up on in the last year.

It teaches all the same things, just in a slightly different way.

I like that.


----------



## Healer

zillard said:


> Took D7 to an outdoor arts festival today.
> 
> Let her pick out some art for her new room. Got her face painted. Had a ring made for her. Bought her a new hat she picked out.
> 
> She wanted to take a pic to send to her mom. I snapped one with my phone.
> 
> Sent it off, with no message, after D7 had a phone call with her telling her about her fun.
> 
> X - I thought it was against the rules to send texts after 8.
> 
> (never was. I set a boundary that I would not respond to any texts sent to me between midnight and 8am).
> 
> Z - Not that I recall but it won't happen again.
> 
> X - I appreciate the pic. I really do. But one of your boundaries was no late texts.
> 
> X - It really was a problem for you, but now it's ok. I honestly don't know how to deal with this.
> 
> X - Nothing I do has ever been right according to you, but you can do whatever you want, and its totally fine. Its frustrating.
> 
> And here sits Z. Not responding.
> 
> Appreciate the pic or don't. I could care less. No need to explain a photo of a smiling 7yo girl with a butterfly painted on her face.
> 
> It's self explanatory.


Good Lord - you are lucky to be rid of her.


----------



## Healer

Fantastic, inspirational thread. Gonna go back and read your original thread. I am approaching D but probably a few months away yet.

You are clearly an awesome dad and a smart guy. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> I said this on another thread. I'll take a nice guy, passive, pleaser over a selfish user any day of the week.
> 
> I'm married to passive man but since I understand him I can work with that. I gently coach him that it's okay to speak up and I do my best to make sure his needs are met.
> 
> This I can live with.


I love the way you talk about your husband and your marriage. 

You show great respect, honor and understanding.


----------



## Chuck71

Ceegee said:


> I love the way you talk about your husband and your marriage.
> 
> You show great respect, honor and understanding.


:iagree:


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> Those are some serious red flags.
> 
> I have to say, her current emotional bearing is all the more impressive given that history.


If someone has suffered through their mistakes and learned from them maybe they're no longer red flags.


----------



## Chuck71

maybe.......a pink flag???


----------



## Ceegee

Chuck71 said:


> maybe.......a pink flag???


I was thinking yellow. Go slow and use caution.


----------



## Chuck71

Ceegee said:


> I was thinking yellow. Go slow and use caution.


but that's when my parents would speed up to beat the red light :rofl:

i'm off my meds today, just look over me


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> I was thinking yellow. Go slow and use caution.


Heh... 

Traditionally, yellow flags were used on sailing ships and ports to warn other ships of the presence of contagious disease and quarantine conditions.

:smthumbup:


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> Heh...
> 
> Traditionally, yellow flags were used on sailing ships and ports to warn other ships of the presence of contagious disease and quarantine conditions.
> 
> :smthumbup:


I was thinking of NASCAR flag colors. But this also seems appropriate.


----------



## Mavash.

Ceegee said:


> I love the way you talk about your husband and your marriage.
> 
> You show great respect, honor and understanding.


Thanks I worked for it. Went from crazy to codependent nice girl to where I am now. Marriage went from roommates to fighting to being taken advantage of to mutual respect. I studied and learned. And now I have the privilege of passing on my wisdom to all those who seek it.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> Thanks I worked for it. Went from crazy to codependent nice girl to where I am now. Marriage went from roommates to fighting to being taken advantage of to mutual respect. I studied and learned. And now I have the privilege of passing on my wisdom to all those who seek it.


Almost anything can be fixed. But an M involves two parts. Each person is responsible for their own part. 

Mav fixed her part. And things sound well so I expect hubby is maintaining his as well. 

:smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Just got pre-approved for a new house. More than I expected to work with so I dropped it down to what I was expecting. 

Time to hunt!


----------



## angelpixie

Congratulations! :smthumbup:


----------



## Chuck71

Mavash. said:


> Thanks I worked for it. Went from crazy to codependent nice girl to where I am now. Marriage went from roommates to fighting to being taken advantage of to mutual respect. I studied and learned. And now I have the privilege of passing on my wisdom to all those who seek it.


yes Yoda wisdom it is what we seek


----------



## zillard

X finally Skyped her daughter last night. They talked and laughed for close to two hours, which is good. 

She called me after - wanted to talk. 

X - I miss her so much, you don't even know. 

X - I'll be coming up to visit this month. But it won't be 14 days advance notice like the divorce papers say. Is that ok? Are you ok with a week's notice?

(summer is her time anyway)

Z - Good, she'd like to see you. That's fine with me. But 14 days notice will be important when she's back in school.

X - I need to call your mom to see if I'm still welcome there.

Z - ok

She tried chit chat, victim chair, etc. The less I respond the more she runs her mouth in circles. Eventually...

X - I have no idea what's going on. I don't know what time it is, what day it is. I need to see [her IC]. haha. I haven't seen her for 2 weeks and well, that woman! She makes me feel less crazy. 

X - I think my next visitation is Thanksgiving. 

Z - That sounds right. 

X - No. It IS right. The papers are right in front of me. I keep them on the bookshelf in a red binder. 

Z - ok. 

X - So if you have a preference of me spending thanksgiving there or not...

Z - She'd probably like to see your place.

X - I'd like to see my place! I'm moving this weekend. But if you have a preference between me coming up there or maybe her coming here with me...

Z - That's what was expected.

X - Well I know. I have the papers in front of me. I don't know why it came out like that. But if you care either way I might take it into consideration. 

Z - I'll get back to you. I'm going to go.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> X finally Skyped her daughter last night. They talked and laughed for close to two hours, which is good.
> 
> She called me after - wanted to talk.
> 
> X - I miss her so much, you don't even know.
> 
> X - I'll be coming up to visit this month. But it won't be 14 days advance notice like the divorce papers say. Is that ok? Are you ok with a week's notice?
> 
> (summer is her time anyway)
> 
> Z - Good, she'd like to see you. That's fine with me. But 14 days notice will be important when she's back in school.
> 
> X - I need to call your mom to see if I'm still welcome there.
> 
> Z - ok
> 
> She tried chit chat, victim chair, etc. The less I respond the more she runs her mouth in circles. Eventually...
> 
> X - I have no idea what's going on. I don't know what time it is, what day it is. I need to see [her IC]. haha. I haven't seen her for 2 weeks and well, that woman! She makes me feel less crazy.
> 
> X - I think my next visitation is Thanksgiving.
> 
> Z - That sounds right.
> 
> X - No. It IS right. The papers are right in front of me. I keep them on the bookshelf in a red binder.
> 
> Z - ok.
> 
> X - So if you have a preference of me spending thanksgiving there or not...
> 
> Z - She'd probably like to see your place.
> 
> X - I'd like to see my place! I'm moving this weekend. But if you have a preference between me coming up there or maybe her coming here with me...
> 
> Z - That's what was expected.
> 
> X - Well I know. I have the papers in front of me. I don't know why it came out like that. But if you care either way I might take it into consideration.
> 
> Z - I'll get back to you. I'm going to go.


Well played Zillard well played! I am ok with this:smthumbup:


----------



## tom67

She needs her mother and like you said it was her time anyway so you let the 14 day go this time but you made sure to point out it will be enforced during the school year. Cool and calm and I'll get back to you.


----------



## zillard

The visit likely won't happen this month anyway, if she sticks to her normal pattern - lack of follow through.

She has an out of state move this weekend. Then will be distracted getting settled in. 

I don't think the timing is coincidence. Only now, after Tiger put pics of her and her daughter with my family at the fireworks show is X skyping and talking about visiting. 

Just as Tiger's X scheduled a sit down with her to work out a set schedule. But he pulled a no show.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

She sounds so lost and confused. 

You handled it very well.


----------



## r0r0bin

Congratulation on your new life Bro


----------



## arbitrator

*"I came to TAM after discovery of my ex-wife's affair with a co-worker. I was devastated. It was the worst time of my life, even harder than dealing with the deaths of my two brothers."* 


Infidelity is, in essence, is a form of death; the death of the marriage, no matter whether it was done from an emotional or a physical standpoint. Either way, the loving shared trust that richly accumulated over the years is now totally gone forever, or will never, ever come close to recovering to its former state.

I would have to greatly equate infidelity as being "death with mutual animosity!"


----------



## Garry2012

arbitrator said:


> *"I came to TAM after discovery of my ex-wife's affair with a co-worker. I was devastated. It was the worst time of my life, even harder than dealing with the deaths of my two brothers."*
> 
> 
> Infidelity is, in essence, is a form of death; the death of the marriage, no matter whether it was done from an emotional or a physical standpoint. Either way, the loving shared trust that richly accumulated over the years is now totally gone forever, or will never, ever come close to recovering to its former state.
> 
> I would have to greatly equate infidelity as being "death with mutual animosity!"


I agree it is a death, but to me it is worse than just death because it is mixed with blame, failure and rejection. Both my parents died, my dad died in Nov 11, and to me, this was FAR worse.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X finally Skyped her daughter last night. They talked and laughed for close to two hours, which is good.
> 
> She called me after - wanted to talk.
> 
> X - I miss her so much, you don't even know.
> 
> X - I'll be coming up to visit this month. But it won't be 14 days advance notice like the divorce papers say. Is that ok? Are you ok with a week's notice?
> 
> (summer is her time anyway)
> 
> Z - Good, she'd like to see you. That's fine with me. But 14 days notice will be important when she's back in school.
> 
> X - I need to call your mom to see if I'm still welcome there.
> 
> Z - ok
> 
> She tried chit chat, victim chair, etc. The less I respond the more she runs her mouth in circles. Eventually...
> 
> X - I have no idea what's going on. I don't know what time it is, what day it is. I need to see [her IC]. haha. I haven't seen her for 2 weeks and well, that woman! She makes me feel less crazy.
> 
> X - I think my next visitation is Thanksgiving.
> 
> Z - That sounds right.
> 
> X - No. It IS right. The papers are right in front of me. I keep them on the bookshelf in a red binder.
> 
> Z - ok.
> 
> X - So if you have a preference of me spending thanksgiving there or not...
> 
> Z - She'd probably like to see your place.
> 
> X - I'd like to see my place! I'm moving this weekend. But if you have a preference between me coming up there or maybe her coming here with me...
> 
> Z - That's what was expected.
> 
> X - Well I know. I have the papers in front of me. I don't know why it came out like that. But if you care either way I might take it into consideration.
> 
> Z - I'll get back to you. I'm going to go.


Nothing changes but the date.


----------



## Chuck71

Her response sounds so much like what my ex would have said

Sad part is...she probably did have the D papers in front of her

and yes she is aware of having D7 for summer but did not take

advantage of her chance.

Her jealousy of Tiger moves her more than missing D7

she is aware of this but she convinces self nothing

she can do to change

learned helplessness 

somewhere in her mind, she still thinks the two of you

will somehow return home for Christmas 

she can't explain it but...it is "just how she feels"


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Her response sounds so much like what my ex would have said
> 
> Sad part is...she probably did have the D papers in front of her
> 
> and yes she is aware of having D7 for summer but did not take
> 
> advantage of her chance.
> 
> Her jealousy of Tiger moves her more than missing D7
> 
> she is aware of this but she convinces self nothing
> 
> she can do to change
> 
> learned helplessness
> 
> somewhere in her mind, she still thinks the two of you
> 
> will somehow return home for Christmas
> 
> she can't explain it but...it is "just how she feels"


Yeah, it seemed she was fishing for an invitation to share Thanksgiving.

Very similar to New Years Eve. 

I won't give her one. For two reasons. I don't want to and it would be good for D7 to spend time at her place, so it isn't just imaginary.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Yeah, it seemed she was fishing for an invitation to share Thanksgiving.
> 
> Very similar to New Years Eve.
> 
> I won't give her one. For two reasons. I don't want to and it would be good for D7 to spend time at her place, so it isn't just imaginary.


We should both be glad they signed when they did, and allowed us to finalize when we could. 

I have had a lot of times where ex has made permanent suggestion changes that would have made holidays a lot harder. Now that its said and done, it's a lot easier to say now. 

Because its what is best for everyone.


----------



## Chuck71

A well chronicled journey, should be made into a book

Group has really taken a lot from your posts

as have I, if and when I have a child

our paths were common, relatively swift D but most of the 

drama occurred after the D 

it's odd after they are gone, you (re)discover so many things

you enjoyed a long time ago

I have rediscovered old baseball cards, almost as I did

back in the 1980's

yes it is a child's hobby mostly, it brings out the child in me

but if you know what you are doing, you can make a nice profit

the government has started placing barriers to parking at the lake

must be for peak tourist season....now I have to park and walk three miles

hope I don't get picked up crossing, I think it is mostly to deter drunks

if you can, send a few pics of your hikes, I will trade with some from Smokies


----------



## zillard

D7 had her second therapy session yesterday. 

I went in first and IC said she had spoken to the previous IC.

She talked about the last session - told me that D7 frequently brought up her mother and then would be silent. Followed by a tidbit about Grandma or Grandma's house. She explained that it is good to have Grandma and her aunts around as they are comforts. She brings up her mom, has some hurt feelings there and so switches the topic to something comforting. 

I informed her of X's move. 

We are now starting weekly sessions instead of bi-weekly.

After D7s session the IC came out and said D is very excited about the house hunt. It will be good to get her out of the apartment and into something more permanent. 

I took her with me yesterday and we looked at six houses. Found one possibility that we both like but want to see more before putting in an offer.


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> A well chronicled journey, should be made into a book
> 
> Group has really taken a lot from your posts
> 
> as have I, if and when I have a child
> 
> our paths were common, relatively swift D but most of the
> 
> drama occurred after the D
> 
> it's odd after they are gone, you (re)discover so many things
> 
> you enjoyed a long time ago
> 
> I have rediscovered old baseball cards, almost as I did
> 
> back in the 1980's
> 
> yes it is a child's hobby mostly, it brings out the child in me
> 
> but if you know what you are doing, you can make a nice profit
> 
> the government has started placing barriers to parking at the lake
> 
> must be for peak tourist season....now I have to park and walk three miles
> 
> hope I don't get picked up crossing, I think it is mostly to deter drunks
> 
> if you can, send a few pics of your hikes, I will trade with some from Smokies


Chuck,

Off topic, but I believe I still have a full set of 1974 Topps

Had fantasies of sharing that hobby with my son.

LOL

Have no idea what they're worth.

Do you?

I got sick to my stomach chewing all that powdered gum.


----------



## zillard

Went hunting again today. Found a nice house which was a good deal. Has most of what I was looking for so I put in an offer. 

1930s brick home that has been 98% restored. Needs some work but I'm looking forward to it. Old hardwood floors have been uncovered and need to be treated. New stairways need carpet. The garage needs a new bay door and property could use a new fence. 

Other than that it looks great. It already has a pink bedroom for D7. In that room (upstairs) some wasted space was turned into a little hobbit/play cave. A built-in clubhouse already pink. 

3 levels, 6 rooms, plenty of space for my office and extra studio space where I can throw paint around, plus a guest room. 2.5k sq ft. Large garden area plus fruit trees. View of the mountains. Schools and park down the road. 

And the kicker - it's well under budget!

Crossin my fingers.


----------



## hope4family

2,500 sqr ft. That's pretty awesome.


----------



## Unique Username

what are 3's?


----------



## zillard

Unique Username said:


> what are 3's?


#1 is something you do for yourself. 

#2 is something you do for someone else because you want to out of the kindness of your heart. 

#3 is something you do that you don't want to do in order to make someone love you more or avoid conflict. You feel bad about yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitehawk

Hey z , new thread eh , congrats on everything mate and the housing finance , that's a biggie !

But z is that all you feel like saying to x or want to now , hurt , no interest , or is it just more of the treatment ?

Just wondering that's all as surely you could relax now couldn't you, if you wanted to that is ?


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> Chuck,
> 
> Off topic, but I believe I still have a full set of 1974 Topps
> 
> Had fantasies of sharing that hobby with my son.
> 
> LOL
> 
> Have no idea what they're worth.
> 
> Do you?
> 
> I got sick to my stomach chewing all that powdered gum.



Conrad, keep in mind, the price guide is issued by Beckett,

Dr. James Beckett, who owns a massive card shop himself.

It's like Chevy doing blue book prices for Ford and Chrysler.

The set price is $400. Main cards are Nolan Ryan, Hank Aaron

Dave Winfield rookie, Pete Rose. I purchased mine for 60%

high book ($240) but it was very sharp, 90% were NM/MT.

You know how corners get curved, cards get bent, a low grade 

set could bring $85-125 and a super sharp high grade set

could fetch $600. Cards are like cars, condition! Side note:

JC Penny pulled a rarity for those days and offered a Factory Set

meaning set was sealed and cards are brand new. They sold for

(what mom said) $19.95. They are rare, those fetch $700 and up.

There was a 44 card traded set that were issued in regular card packs.

You may have that too, it lists at $25.

I collected three sets of everything from 1981 to 1996

(well 98% of everything, could not afford the high $$ sets like 1984

Fleer Update back then....$1200, only had one), I foresaw two boys

when I was older. Later when step son and I met, I tried getting him

into cards. He preferred other interests. Sold collection soon after.

Now I have everything back and more....no three of everythings now

if I have a son, let him get his cards like I did! :lol:


----------



## Chuck71

Setting roots will help D7 transition well. She has huge family

and a doting da-da. Moving in will be something she will carry

with her into adulthood. I once thought your X had the A-hole of

2013 award locked. Group and CG's seem to have that now

neck n neck race. Once you were gone, X sought out new 

rescuer / enabler. Mine did exact same. Some newby stated 

on Group's thread, his ex could not make ends meet on her own

so she has to find a cash machine. Same with your X and mine.

Now we know why we always handled the bills


----------



## hope4family

Chuck71 said:


> Setting roots will help D7 transition well. She has huge family
> 
> and a doting da-da. Moving in will be something she will carry
> 
> with her into adulthood. I once thought your X had the A-hole of
> 
> 2013 award locked. Group and CG's seem to have that now
> 
> neck n neck race. Once you were gone, X sought out new
> 
> rescuer / enabler. Mine did exact same. Some newby stated
> 
> on Group's thread, his ex could not make ends meet on her own
> 
> so she has to find a cash machine. Same with your X and mine.
> 
> Now we know why we always handled the bills


Two phrases my ex-wife spilled that helped me figure out what I was. 

"I got my Father to fix the car. Finally giving what he owes me." 

"I have a friend who will help me with my cell phone bill by adding me to his plan." (Oops! Said his.)


----------



## Chuck71

to get, one has to give

all I see her doing is getting, what is she giving?

ohhhh....yeah......oldest trick in the world


----------



## whitehawk

Chuck71 said:


> to get, one has to give
> 
> all I see her doing is getting, what is she giving?
> 
> ohhhh....yeah......oldest trick in the world



Oh right , good point Chuck !


----------



## whitehawk

hope4family said:


> Two phrases my ex-wife spilled that helped me figure out what I was.
> 
> "I got my Father to fix the car. Finally giving what he owes me."
> 
> "I have a friend who will help me with my cell phone bill by adding me to his plan." (Oops! Said his.)



Youch Hope. Mine suddenly turned up with a loaner car while hers was getting fixed. She even gave me a lift in it. Guess who's car that turned out to be !
Piece of sh1t it was too


----------



## Chuck71

:lol: when did it become fashionable to use a POSOMs car?

does it mean they share a pack of Twinkies at lunch?

a York Peppermint Patty under the moonlight?

swap snot under a book shelf in library?

:scratchhead:


----------



## Mavash.

Chuck71 said:


> :lol: when did it become fashionable to use a POSOMs car?


It's late teenage/early 20's I think I'm great because I'm dating adult men now behavior which makes sense because that's the stage these women missed. They are reliving it now.


----------



## Chuck71

Mavash. said:


> It's late teenage/early 20's I think I'm great because I'm dating adult men now behavior which makes sense because that's the stage these women missed. They are reliving it now.


makes me glad I am a guy.

Who would want those drunken chats about world peace?

How I could fit a 427 into a '83 Oldsmobile

How you could bounce a quarter off your g/f's arse

How the literature professor always wiggled her arse when she walked


----------



## Mavash.

I'm more like a guy than a girl so I never had drunken chats about world peace.

I don't get women just the crazy ones.


----------



## zillard

I got a text from X yesterday. 

X - Your mom just called me a bit ago and she didn't answer when I called back. What is the number for the house?

I sent her the number. 

Later I talked to my mother. She said X called to return a voice mail message. 

Funny thing - my mother never called her. She left no message. 

They chatted a bit. X still doesn't have a job. It looks like she moved with someone, likely Ringo, as X kept saying "We" this and "we" that. 

X talked to my mom about staying there when she comes to visit D7. Still no set date to do so and July is quickly coming to a close. 

2 months since she's seen her daughter. 

One more month of summer (her time) until it's back to school. :crazy:


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I got a text from X yesterday.
> 
> X - Your mom just called me a bit ago and she didn't answer when I called back. What is the number for the house?
> 
> I sent her the number.
> 
> Later I talked to my mother. She said X called to return a voice mail message.
> 
> Funny thing - my mother never called her. She left no message.
> 
> They chatted a bit. X still doesn't have a job. It looks like she moved with someone, likely Ringo, as X kept saying "We" this and "we" that.
> 
> X talked to my mom about staying there when she comes to visit D7. Still no set date to do so and July is quickly coming to a close.
> 
> 2 months since she's seen her daughter.
> 
> One more month of summer (her time) until it's back to school. :crazy:


At some point, acceptance will be your only option.

The light of your life is simply a(nother) detail to her.


----------



## zillard

It's much harder to accept re D7. 

I do still feel anger and judgement there. 

But I need to listen. She's told me who she is. 



> I wanted nothing more than to make you happy. To please you. To keep your house nice. To raise our kid well. To make you want me around.
> 
> I thought if I played the part of perfect wife really well, I'd just become the perfect wife.


I interpret this as D7 being a #3 for X. She was part of X's efforts to find happiness through me. 

That failed. So what is D7 now? A little love mixed with a lot of resentment.


----------



## zillard

Meanwhile things have been going well with Tiger.

Last weekend she came with me to a family bbq to celebrate my brother getting his Master's degree, while D7 spent the day playing with her cousins at my sister's house. She met my parents again (after many years) and more of my family. 

They all seemed to warm up to her, and her to them. 

This weekend we took another step and went camping together. This time with both of our girls. 

Similar story as the last camping trip, but minus the group. We still used separate cars, separate tents, etc. 

The two girls had a blast playing together and get along nicely. 

Afterward D7 did express some anxiety though. Told me she doesn't want me to date Tiger. After some discussion it came out that she does really like T, but is apprehensive about me dating - anyone. She is concerned about what it will mean for her. 

D - if you get married will I have a step mom?

Z - Yes, you would. But if that happens it wouldn't for a long time. 

D - would a step mom be like in Cinderella?

Z - no, no, no. (damn you Disney!)

D - would I have a step sister?

Z - if I married someone with a daughter, yes you would. How do you feel about that?

D - cool!


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

You are handling this well taking baby steps. 

It's how I'd go about it when my time comes whenever I find someone later on. 

I'm having a similar experience to yours in that I'm finding it easier to forgive X for what she did to me than what she has done to DS' life.


----------



## zillard

Thanks Script. 

The baby steps are tricky but necessary. 

Sure, T and I could be spending a lot more time together if we were having "family" dinners all the time, etc. But being cautious with the children is more important than seeing each other.

Luckily I have a GF who understands that. She isn't pushy about it. We discuss things at length before just jumping into an activity together. 

She brought her daughter over to play on the playground at the apartments with D7 the other day. But she and her daughter did not come into the apartment. Just some play time with T & TD3, then back to Z & D7 time.

Note that how kids take things depends a lot on age. 

A few times while playing on the playground TD3 called me Dad. She was quickly corrected. T was surprised as TD3 doesn't use "Dad" - she calls her father "Papa". 

But it makes sense. TD3 mimics D7 a lot - following the older kid. D calls me Dad, so why shouldn't she? It's my name, right?

D understands the difference at age 7. TD at 3 does not, so it's something that needs to be watched carefully.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> D - would a step mom be like in Cinderella?
> 
> Z - no, no, no. (damn you Disney!)


Step-moms get all the bad press LOL.

My step-mother, who coincidentally came into my life at age 7, was a very positive influence on my life. My real mother, OTOH, not so much. We no longer speak.

Perhaps T, should things continue to progress, will have a similar influence on D7.


----------



## Lifescript

There's many little details and things to be sensitive about. Kids are very protective of their parents. 

It's no easy for well-meaning step parents. The kids sometimes put up huge walls. But that's part of the deal.


----------



## Conrad

Lifescript said:


> There's many little details and things to be sensitive about. Kids are very protective of their parents.
> 
> It's no easy for well-meaning step parents. The kids sometimes put up huge walls. But that's part of the deal.


Wouldn't know anything about that.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> It's no easy for well-meaning step parents. The kids sometimes put up huge walls. But that's part of the deal.


It is part of the deal. It is not a typical family situation, though it is pretty common these days. Must be handled delicately if it is to work well. 

Speaking of, I discovered T is reading books on blending families. 

This tells me 1. she's taking it seriously and 2. she is cautious and wants to do right by the lil'uns. 

-------

Today I find myself in limbo again. But a different sort. 

I put in an offer on a house. 
They returned with a counter offer. 
I countered their counter. 
They accepted, but with an addendum. 

They wanted me to agree to buying the house "as-is". 

I suspect that since the renovation isn't complete, they don't want me coming back after inspection and demanding they finish the floors, etc. 

I'm ok with that. 

But I'm not ok with signing a blanket "as-is" agreement before the inspection, giving up my right to back out of the deal if something big is found. 

So I said no. I will not agree until after the inspection. 

Now I wait.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It is part of the deal. It is not a typical family situation, though it is pretty common these days. Must be handled delicately if it is to work well.
> 
> Speaking of, I discovered T is reading books on blending families.
> 
> This tells me 1. she's taking it seriously and 2. she is cautious and wants to do right by the lil'uns.
> 
> -------
> 
> Today I find myself in limbo again. But a different sort.
> 
> I put in an offer on a house.
> They returned with a counter offer.
> I countered their counter.
> They accepted, but with an addendum.
> 
> They wanted me to agree to buying the house "as-is".
> 
> I suspect that since the renovation isn't complete, they don't want me coming back after inspection and demanding they finish the floors, etc.
> 
> I'm ok with that.
> 
> But I'm not ok with signing a blanket "as-is" agreement before the inspection, giving up my right to back out of the deal if something big is found.
> 
> So I said no. I will not agree until after the inspection.
> 
> Now I wait.


Sounds like the right move.

If someone wants you to buy "as-is", they need to drop the price.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Sounds like the right move.
> 
> If someone wants you to buy "as-is", they need to drop the price.


To their credit, they have dropped it. 

They listed it in February with a price reduction of $37k since. But that was before I saw it and entered negotiations. 

This time around I'm haggling to make sure I get the best deal I can. Old Z would have just accepted the first counter. 

My guess is that the people that saw it before couldn't look past the unfinished state of it, and probably also the personal touches that the woman has added to the place. 

For instance the entry way has two large horses painted on the floor tile with a clear coat... and purple walls to boot. Not really my thing but D7 will love it. 

If I get the place I'll just add some sweet horns and turn it into the unicorn house. lol.


----------



## angelpixie

That provision would make my antenna go up, too, Z. My real estate agent wrote all kinds of provisions into my offer and counter-offer that would allow me to back out without losing my earnest money. Can your agent make some more adjustments to the agreement to protect you? Like asking the seller to pay your closing costs if the inspection turns up something you have to pay for, or something like that? I would worry about them requesting that type of agreement before an inspection. 

And I don't understand buyers who can't see past a seller's choice of paint color, or other things that can be changed, sometimes very easily and inexpensively. I just figure that if enough people pass by a house for those reasons, it just makes me more attractive as a buyer. Good luck! -- when is the inspection?


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> That provision would make my antenna go up, too, Z. My real estate agent wrote all kinds of provisions into my offer and counter-offer that would allow me to back out without losing my earnest money. Can your agent make some more adjustments to the agreement to protect you? Like asking the seller to pay your closing costs if the inspection turns up something you have to pay for, or something like that? I would worry about them requesting that type of agreement before an inspection.
> 
> And I don't understand buyers who can't see past a seller's choice of paint color, or other things that can be changed, sometimes very easily and inexpensively. I just figure that if enough people pass by a house for those reasons, it just makes me more attractive as a buyer. Good luck! -- when is the inspection?


The inspection is happening right now. 

They are to pay closing costs, per my counter offer.


----------



## angelpixie

Keeping my fingers crossed for you!


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> Keeping my fingers crossed for you!


Thank you Angel! 

The inspector can't do a walk through with me until Thursday but basically no show stoppers. Some concerns about the roof in the next 10 years (shingles laid over old shingles), but that's the worst of it. 

---

Went to my meditation group again tonight. It was great. 

I've been going weekly since I started, with or without Tiger (she couldn't make it tonight). 

There was a guest facilitator tonight leading the meditation. A former monk from India who now travels the world doing TED talks and other large events. His wife lives near town so he volunteered to lead the group for a few weeks while he is here. 

Tiger knows his wife, so we went out to dinner with them both earlier in the week. 

It's amazing to me how much truth is out in the world in different places. Things I've learned on TAM. Things I've read in books on codependency. The Toltec Wisdom books. DeMello. Philosophy, new age psychology, etc. etc. 

If you strip away the bs, the message is very similar. 

You are in control of your own happiness. 

So much of our suffering is caused by our own attachments. Our delusions. Our expectations of how things should be. 

He said, "We do not feel our circumstances. We feel our thoughts about our circumstances." 

Our preconceived notions, our assumptions, our learned reactions, our desires... they are all filters that we add unnecessarily in order to see what we want to see. To feel what we want to feel. 

An attempt to avoid suffering which really only causes more. 

He had a good analogy: If we take a heaping spoonful of salt and put it in a glass of water, how easy will that be to drink? 

What if we put the same spoonful into a pitcher of water? A little bit easier. 

What about a water cooler? How about a lake? You wouldn't even notice. 

The amount of salt (our suffering) did not change. Only the amount of water changed. The water is gratitude. 

Gratitude for the things that are right in our lives. As we focus on those, we have gratitude for smaller and smaller things. Due to that, our troubles pale in comparison.

No matter how troublesome you think your life is... someone, somewhere dreams of having your life. 

He also went into forgiveness and how it is not for the other, but for you. It is all about perspective. 

For Give Ness

Thank you. For giving me this opportunity. No matter how bad I felt. No matter how hard the situation. I learned and I grew. I was given something. 

And if I have gratitude, those circumstances will no longer cause suffering in me.


----------



## Chuck71

I recommend Sophie's World....... A-1 comprehensive overview of old and new philosophy


----------



## zillard

Off the recent topic, but I noticed something this weekend. Sort of. 

Tiger and I were sitting near a campfire and both kids were asleep in their respective tents. 

We talked a lot and at a certain point she said something that jarred me. 

She said she is careful to choose her words around me. 

I told her not to, that I want to hear exactly what she thinks and feels. 

She replied that she just did that but I corrected her. 

Clearly I was not at 50,000 ft as I completely blanked. I still have no clue what we were talking about, or how I corrected her. 

But this tells me I need to improve my listening skills and step out of my own head. 

Here is the rub. I often stay in my head. I am an introvert. I often say nothing because I feel I have nothing to improve the coonversation. So I remain quiet. 

Until I do have something profound (in my mind) to say. But when I do, it is taken differently. 

Because I've been silent, when I do respond the other person thinks what they said right then was more important than what they said before, and because I have something different to say it must be criticism.

But that reaction is mainly due to my delivery. 

I've been told before that I come off as hauty. And that is the furthest from what I feel at the time. 

I don't want to correct anyone. I want to converse. 

But I end up starting a debate due to my approach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Another thing. 

I've found that I'm guarding myself quite a bit with T. My communication with her has not been as open and honest as it was in the beginning. 

Because I am holding back. 

I have feelings that I want to disclose. Things I want to tell her. 

We've become very close but I have thrown a wall up. Of course she has her own, but those should not be my concern. 

Many times I find myself looking into her eyes and wanting to say more, only to remain silent and smile instead. Followed by another long hug. 

I have love for her. 

But I have fear. I do not fear telling her and not hearing the same thing in response. 

I fear opening her up to hurt. 

Sure the sex is good. Sure the validation is nice. But my feelings don't change when those are absent. 

Yes, oxytocin, etc. Love drug. Chemicals released into the brain with a good feeling. 

Am I rationalizing? Is she a rebound? Is it real? 

All good questions that should be explored. 

Each time we meet or talk she says something that intrigues me. Challenges me. 

We talk about our faults. We acknowledge them. Yes, my fixer part wants to surface and sometimes does. As does her's. 

But I believe we see each other as we are. Not as we were or can be. We thoroughly enjoy our time together. Over coffee, even just for 15 mins. The playground where we don't touch. Meditation where we don't talk. On the phone. 

Tonight the monk was talking about anger and discontent. How the connection between ourselves and others is an innocent glass tube. If we release our emotional poison into the tube, that is what the other will receive. 

When in a place of discontent, our actions are not pure. Our intentions murky. 

I do not feel that with T. Nowhere close. I am relaxed and peaceful around her. My feelings toward her have not changed, only grown. 

But there is the test. Is it attachment? or is it love? I believe the differentiator is intention. 

But can I give love if I can not listen and stop fixing?

I think some of my fear comes from my past. I said the big 3 to X first. Obviously I don't want a repeat of that ordeal. 

But unlike then, I can see it in T's eyes. 

She's admitted she carefully picks her words around me. So of course she is being cautious too. Because I've been so vocal in the last few months about my ideas on what love is and is not. 

Shooting myself in the foot? Over analyzing yet again? Being a coward? Righteous caution? 

I'm not sure tonight. But I feel the same.


----------



## Chuck71

observe but enjoy the moment for what it was

ex would write 'love note' when we met

lol i would correct the errors after reading it

can be blessing or a curse

all in how it is percieved


----------



## zillard

Clearly its a long night for me as I haven't written this much in weeks. 

Why?

I had an excellent weekend with T, TD3, D7 and the dog.

I had a good time at home with D7 who is fast asleep with dreams of tomorrow. 

I had a good movie date with T. 

I had a great meditation group. 

I had a good conversation with my sister and also with my mom and a less common one with my dad. 

I got an unexpected call from my brother in alaska. 

I found out the house is pretty much a go if I am ok with roofing in the next decade. 

Yet I sit awake at 4am drinking a beer while posting on TAM. 

I think that I think that I don't deserve this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

Whether you deserve it or not it is irrelevent... It is what it is. Take joy in what it is.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Yes, Z, you are over-analyzing LOL.

You don't need to wait until you are a Zen master to fall in love with T. I'm pretty sure she's ready to accept you "as is", even with your old shingles under the new ones.

The great thing is this: you are both "fixers", but are aware of your co-dependent tendencies. You are both givers. That's a pretty good match

I say, take the plunge :smthumbup:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> I fear opening her up to hurt.


Let her make that decision.


----------



## Mavash.

Z this probably won't make any sense to you but I feel those same feelings and I've been married for 22 years. 

Once you've been burned these feelings don't vanish they are managed.

And being introverted throws another issue into the mix because you do live in your head often.

I choose my words carefully around my husband but its because I'm wise not because I'm walking on eggshells.

Loving someone is a risk no doubt but my motto lately is feel the fear and do it anyway.


----------



## Ceegee

Sounds like you're becoming too smart for your own good. Afraid of a misstep. 

Good to be aware but risk is where the reward is. 

I agree with Mav - face the fear. Welcome the fear.


----------



## Mavash.

I've experienced a lot of growth by choosing to say what's in my head instead of letting fear hold me back.

I've experienced even more by doing what I feel like doing instead of being afraid.

The risk is high that by opening my heart I'm going to feel pain but if I keep it closed I won't feel loved either.

That darn wall blocks both hurt and joy.

Its like people doing whatever they can to block pain.

Can't pick and choose which feelings to block.

Block pain and you block joy too.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Every rose has it's thorn blah blah blah

Bret Michaels said it best LOL


----------



## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> I've experienced a lot of growth by choosing to say what's in my head instead of letting fear hold me back.
> 
> I've experienced even more by doing what I feel like doing instead of being afraid.
> 
> The risk is high that by opening my heart I'm going to feel pain but if I keep it closed I won't feel loved either.
> 
> That darn wall blocks both hurt and joy.
> 
> Its like people doing whatever they can to block pain.
> 
> Can't pick and choose which feelings to block.
> 
> Block pain and you block joy too.



Joy and pain
Like sunshine and rain

-Rob Base


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Yes, Z, you are over-analyzing LOL.


Just a bit, yeah? 



ThreeStrikes said:


> *You don't need to wait until you are a Zen master to fall in love with T.* I'm pretty sure she's ready to accept you "as is", even with your old shingles under the new ones.


Thanks 3X. I sure am tempted to hold out until then. 

But wth - why not throw down some earnest money and make an offer. My roof will need some work down the road, my floors need some work too, and I might get attacked by unicorns as I walk through the door... but I can hack it.


----------



## vi_bride04

Having true feelings for someone is scary. Especially after a dealing with a crazy ex. 

Give yourself a little break, Z. Keep learning and growing and enjoy T. When the time is right you will tell her how you feel. 

You 2 seem pretty self aware and thats great. Don't over analyze like you have been. Is it a fvck yes, or a fvck no? (not sure if you read that article)


----------



## Conrad

Zillard,

Would you rather have her choose her words with you, or simply blurt out whatever is in her head - no matter how disrespectful?

Seems quite a few guys on these boards would rather have the women they love choose their words a bit more carefully.


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> Having true feelings for someone is scary. Especially after a dealing with a crazy ex.
> 
> Give yourself a little break, Z. Keep learning and growing and enjoy T. When the time is right you will tell her how you feel.
> 
> You 2 seem pretty self aware and thats great. Don't over analyze like you have been. Is it a fvck yes, or a fvck no? (not sure if you read that article)


I just read the article. 

Funny thing - I started looking up divorce attorneys after I asked my X if she was still my "Hell Yeah!" wife (when I proposed she said "hell yes"). Her answer, "I don't know" = no. 

With T - I broke things off with other women after our trip to Vegas in April. Even though she said there were no expectations. 

And I know she's Fvck yes. I don't even need to ask.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Zillard,
> 
> Would you rather have her choose her words with you, or simply blurt out whatever is in her head - no matter how disrespectful?
> 
> Seems quite a few guys on these boards would rather have the women they love choose their words a bit more carefully.


Excellent point.

New is weird, but it doesn't mean it is bad.


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> I just read the article.
> 
> Funny thing - I started looking up divorce attorneys after I asked my X if she was still my "Hell Yeah!" wife (when I proposed she said "hell yes"). Her answer, "I don't know" = no.
> 
> With T - I broke things off with other women after our trip to Vegas in April. Even though she said there were no expectations.
> 
> *And I know she's Fvck yes. I don't even need to ask.*


 :smthumbup:

Having someone who is a FVCK YES!!!! in your life is so nice, isn't it?

Oh and I love your meditation group posts. Gives me so much to think about and put into perspective when dealing with my life. Thanks.


----------



## hope4family

....personally. Just dont say you love her before she does at least. Let her do it. 

Other then that. Baby steps. you care deeply for each other. You respect each other without walking on eggshells. Enjoy this rose colored moment while it lasts. 

If you do feel your emotions are geared more towards love. Practice simply showing it instead of saying it. How often in life, do a person get the chance to show someone that they love them free of charge. This is that moment. Enjoy it treasure it. Just remember, it's all part of life. A necessary part.


----------



## Chuck71

you are simply not used to the way T treats you

your body was programmed with your Xs ways

you are aware of yourself more

I asked myself the same questions with new gal

it is not the unknown, just unseen in # of years


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Excellent point.
> 
> New is weird, but it doesn't mean it is bad.


I guess all this is more personal development. after years of being with X, who is a bit crazy, you are with a woman who is responsible, sensible and has good boundaries. 

Are you afraid of being vulnerable? I think you you should have more faith in yourself. if she is not the one or she is not right, you can deal with it. it wont break you. if you think you love her, you should tell her when the time is right. 

So what if you make mistakes along the way, you make them in good faith and without blinders on. and you can always correct yourself. basically what i am saying is that you should not be too cautious or wary about what each thing means, listen to your gut. it will more often than not guide you. you are moving on to a new life in a new place and a new house, so you have a lot to deal with. 

if she says she is feeling a bit cautious about telling you things, tell her to be open to you. If what she says grates with you or you want to respond to it, you should do so without fear. If she cant take it then she needs to work on that. tell her that the same applies to you telling her something too.

btw, your X is surely having a rapid descent into adolescence. previously she had a job, a daughter to take care of (for limited hours), a house and car to maintain. now she is pretty much absolved of all responsibilities. and she seems unable to manage much either.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> ....personally. Just dont say you love her before she does at least. Let her do it.


too late.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> too late.


Then what are you griping about? 

You have two healthy options from here on out, either own your feelings and speak them, or control them.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> too late.


We all do too


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> If you do feel your emotions are geared more towards love. Practice simply showing it instead of saying it. How often in life, do a person get the chance to show someone that they love them free of charge.


This I have been doing. As has she. It's how I know she is a fvck yes. 

I told her yesterday. She already knew I felt that way. 

We talked for hours later. She had read something similar to what you wrote above, about how we shouldn't need to hear these things. That if we feel love and are with someone who feels that way then we should already know. It should be obvious. 

But that shouldn't take the fun out of it. And it is still means a lot to say and hear these things.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> This I have been doing. As has she. It's how I know she is a fvck yes.
> 
> I told her yesterday. She already knew I felt that way.
> 
> We talked for hours later. She had read something similar to what you wrote above, about how we shouldn't need to hear these things. That if we feel love and are with someone who feels that way then we should already know. It should be obvious.
> 
> But that shouldn't take the fun out of it. And it is still means a lot to say and hear these things.


I wanna fvck yes girl....


----------



## zillard

Hi Z, 

I'd like to set up a trip to visit with D7 in the very near future. I was thinking the first week or two of August would be ideal, depending on when school resumes. I spoke to [your mom] and she said I'm welcome to stay at her house. That would be ideal since it seems like D7 is there fairly often anyway. I will be purchasing my own plane tickets and possibly a rental car if that's necessary. 

I also wanted you to be up to speed on my current living arrangements. I'm in a nice neighborhood, in a two bedroom apartment. The second bedroom is specifically for D7 and all my art crap while she's not occupying the room. I'd like to fly her here for Thanksgiving, we'll have to work out those details in a bit. I don't necessarily feel comfortable with her traveling alone on a plane, despite the fact that it would be a straight shot and I live only a few miles from the airport. We'll work it out. 

Does D7 need anything specific for the upcoming school year? Clothes, supplies...I will provide as much as I can, just let me know what is necessary. 

Thanks,
X

----

More words. Sounds nice, but... I want to see the action.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> I wanna fvck yes girl....


You can't. She's my Yes Girl.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Hi Z,
> 
> I'd like to set up a trip to visit with D7 in the very near future. I was thinking the first week or two of August would be ideal, depending on when school resumes. I spoke to [your mom] and she said I'm welcome to stay at her house. That would be ideal since it seems like D7 is there fairly often anyway. I will be purchasing my own plane tickets and possibly a rental car if that's necessary.
> 
> I also wanted you to be up to speed on my current living arrangements. I'm in a nice neighborhood, in a two bedroom apartment. The second bedroom is specifically for D7 and all my art crap while she's not occupying the room. I'd like to fly her here for Thanksgiving, we'll have to work out those details in a bit. I don't necessarily feel comfortable with her traveling alone on a plane, despite the fact that it would be a straight shot and I live only a few miles from the airport. We'll work it out.
> 
> Does D7 need anything specific for the upcoming school year? Clothes, supplies...I will provide as much as I can, just let me know what is necessary.
> 
> Thanks,
> X
> 
> ----
> 
> More words. Sounds nice, but... I want to see the action.


I would send her the list within the next 24 hours.

Make her show her hand. (or lack thereof)


----------



## 06Daddio08

Why is she staying with your family and not renting a place?


----------



## Chuck71

one can seem willing to do much more with someone else's $$


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Why is she staying with your family and not renting a place?


Money is my guess.

I'm staying out of that decision. My parents can welcome whoever they want in their home. 

I'm surprised she's brave enough. I wouldn't want to do that.


----------



## Pam

I don't live in the same part of the country that you do; I'm in the Mid-South. But I inherited a roofing company from my husband, and it isn't unusual to have more than one layer of shingles on a house around here. Three is the maximum, after that we have to tear them off down to the decking and start fresh.

Just thought I might relieve your mind a little bit, on that part.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I'm surprised she's brave enough. I wouldn't want to do that.


When's the last time she thought through the possible consequences of her actions and took them into account?


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> When's the last time she thought through the possible consequences of her actions and took them into account?


Righteo, PB. 

A week or so at my parent's house post D? 

She had trouble lasting a week there while we were married. 

If she does show up I wager she leaves early or ends up getting a hotel room. 

But who knows. I've been wrong before.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> *If she does show up*


Exactly.

Where's our oddsmaker, and when can we start betting?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Righteo, PB.
> 
> A week or so at my parent's house post D?
> 
> She had trouble lasting a week there while we were married.
> 
> If she does show up I wager she leaves early or ends up getting a hotel room.
> 
> But who knows. I've been wrong before.


Yeah, but you're less wrong now than you've ever been.


----------



## Pam

And, she will get a rental car "if necessary". I hope you will make it necessary.

I am getting so involved in several of you guys' journals!


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> And, she will get a rental car "if necessary". I hope you will make it necessary.
> 
> I am getting so involved in several of you guys' journals!


That's her typical MO. Hint and expect me to jump. I trained her well to do that. 

I sure as hell will not be picking her up at the airport.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I heard some beautiful words come out of Tiger's mouth last night. 

"You certainly can do that. But I don't support that decision."

Apparently she's not ok with that. :smthumbup:


I also notice I'm rubbing off on D7:

"Well I don't recall that, Dad. I don't recall."

With that remark I was equally frustrated and proud at the same time.


----------



## zillard

The house might fall through. 

I received the inspection report and there are some issues. I'm ok with them, but apparently the bank is not. 

I have to get a formal opinion from a licensed roofer for the appraiser. 

I may be back to square one and on the hunt again. 

Feeling very frustrated today. But I know it is due to my attachment to the thought of that specific house and being done with the buying process. 

Must let it go and accept uncertainty.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> The house might fall through.
> 
> I received the inspection report and there are some issues. I'm ok with them, but apparently the bank is not.
> 
> I have to get a formal opinion from a licensed roofer for the appraiser.
> 
> I may be back to square one and on the hunt again.
> 
> Feeling very frustrated today. But I know it is due to my attachment to the thought of that specific house and being done with the buying process.
> 
> Must let it go and accept uncertainty.


Is an FHA rehabilitation (203(k), I believe?) loan feasible? When we bought our house, there was only bare subfloor... no carpeting or flooring. Our bank wasn't happy with that, either. Said the house needed to be in livable condition or some such.

As a part of the mortgage, though, we got some extra money to put new flooring in, and had it installed after we closed and moved in.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Is an FHA rehabilitation (203(k), I believe?) loan feasible? When we bought our house, there was only bare subfloor... no carpeting or flooring. Our bank wasn't happy with that, either. Said the house needed to be in livable condition or some such.
> 
> As a part of the mortgage, though, we got some extra money to put new flooring in, and had it installed after we closed and moved in.


Hmm. Thanks PB. Will look into that.


----------



## angelpixie

That's a good point, Pb. What type of financing are you doing, Z, conventional or FHA? There isn't as much difference in rates between the two as there has been in the past. Because they had to redo my roof and update some electrical that wasn't up to current code, I went conventional instead of FHA. And it actually ended up giving me a lower monthly payment because FHA mortgage insurance is much more expensive than the conventional. I went with a private mortgage broker, by recommendation of my real estate agent. My credit union didn't have as many options available to me (they don't do FHA, for example). 

You might want to see if there are some creative options available to you. I wasn't aware of nearly all of the 'products' out there.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> That's a good point, Pb. What type of financing are you doing, Z, conventional or FHA? There isn't as much difference in rates between the two as there has been in the past. Because they had to redo my roof and update some electrical that wasn't up to current code, I went conventional instead of FHA. And it actually ended up giving me a lower monthly payment because FHA mortgage insurance is much more expensive than the conventional. I went with a private mortgage broker, by recommendation of my real estate agent. My credit union didn't have as many options available to me (they don't do FHA, for example).
> 
> You might want to see if there are some creative options available to you. I wasn't aware of nearly all of the 'products' out there.


First I was looking at USDA Rural, no down. 

I can just squeeze the down for the conventional but then won't have anything to finish the floors. 

So if I do go conventional, I might as well get something smaller right in town that doesn't need the work.


----------



## zillard

Digging on this today.

David Bazan - People (Live on KEXP) - YouTube

I know that it's dangerous to judge
But man you gotta find the truth
And when you find that truth don't budge
Until the truth you found begins to change
And it does, I know, I know

And when you love the truth enough 
you start to tell it all the time
And when it gets you into trouble 
you discover you don't mind

'Cause if good is finally gonna trump
Then man you gotta take stock 
and you gotta take your lumps
Or else they trickle down 
into someone else's cup below
You know

I wanna know who are these people 
blaming their sins on the fall
And who are these people
Well if I'm honest with myself at all 
these are my people
Man what else can I say
You are my people
We're the same in so many ways


----------



## zillard

I had another excellent weekend. 

Park time with D7, Tiger and TD3 then out to dinner. 

Saturday it was raining so I took D to the Fun Park by our apartment for a full day of roller skating, bowling, arcade and indoor jungle gym. It was her first time bowling and roller skating and she loved them both. 

Sunday I hit another milestone with Tiger. She invited me to go 4-wheeling with her parents. 45 min drive with them and then a day riding ATVs in the mountains - me driving one with Tiger on back, her father driving the other with her mother. 

It was my first time driving one and a couple times I felt that good ole Dad was testing me a bit. Speeding off ahead, taking harder trails, etc to see if I could keep up. 

I kept up fine. Even cracked jokes with him, which wasn't easy. He's a hard, serious man. But before long I saw some goofiness in him. Tiger was surprised how well it went. 

Later that night I took D7 to Tiger's house for dinner. I took the main part of the meal so it wasn't just T cooking for us. D had fun playing with her dogs. 

On the drive home I noticed D missed a call from her mom, so I had her return the call to say goodnight. 

D - We're just leaving Tiger's house. 

D - Just eating dinner and playing with her dogs.

D - Yes! The white one? 

This was good. D brought up Tiger to X and X responded well. She told D funny stories about previous encounters with one of Tiger's dogs and they laughed and joked about the furball. 

I was pleased with how that went. That was a great opportunity for X to get weird. But if she doesn't make it an issue, and shows D that she knows Tiger and isn't weird about it, then D can be more open with her mom without feeling awkward discussing things. 

I don't say this often, but X deserves kudos for that exchange.


----------



## zillard

Monday night meditation group was excellent. 

Again it was facilitated by the former monk. Most of it was focused on what Conrad would call, "being still". 

He told a story of a man who knew nothing of meditation, but decided he wanted to give it a try. He went to a monastery, found an old monk, and asked him to teach him meditation. 

The old monk spoke little english, but took the man by the hand and led him away. They climbed a hilltop overlooking the city and found a flat spot. The old monk gestured the man to sit. Then he pointed to the expanse in front of him and simply said, "enjoy", and left him there for hours. 

Last night he spoke of simply sitting. Being happy for no reason. For if we attached our happiness to something, it can be taken away and our happiness with it. We must be comfortable in our own skin. We must accept our own level of self acceptance. 

He spoke of the danger of "The Myth of When". When this happens, then.... When I have this, then... When I get a raise, then... When I find the perfect woman, then...

They are all lies. Even if we tell ourselves we do not accept ourselves... that is another instance. When I accept myself more, then...

We need to be still. We need to enjoy things... AS THEY ARE. 

Wisdom is finding no more reasons to be unhappy.


----------



## zillard

“What you need will come to you if you do not ask for what you do not need.”

- Nisargadatta Maharaj


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Wish my ex wife would have learned some of those concepts. Seems she was constantly in this frame of mind. "When this happens, then I'll be happy." Couldn't ever find that place where she could just be..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Wish my ex wife would have learned some of those concepts. Seems she was constantly in this frame of mind. "When this happens, then I'll be happy." Couldn't ever find that place where she could just be..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At times I wish I would have learned them sooner. But then I'd be in a different place than I am today. 

And I really like today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

True, true.. I wish I would have had the boundaries thing figured out long ago as well. But I do not currently have a SO to try out my skills! (Yet)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I find that children and family are actually excellent places to practice boundaries.

Children are nootorious boundary pushes. With each new developmental milestone comes a new round of flexing control. 

And family? Who better? They've know you for your entire life and will exert great resistance when you throw up new boundaries they've never seen before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Child psych again this morning. 

We chatted first w/o D7. 

I informed her that Tiger and TD3 have been around and told her their names in case D7 brings them up. 

I let her know X was talking of coming up to visit. She agreed that nothing should be said to D7 until it's set in stone. 

I told her how I've seen more defiance from D and how it's usually before or after a call with her mom. Also that I've seen D choose not to answer calls from her mom and/or choose not to call her back. 

I tell D that I feel it is important for her to talk to her mom, but it is her choice. Therapist agrees. 

In talking I received some parenting advice, which I welcomed. 

First, she basically described authoritative parenting. Children should have choices. Options that the parent is ok with presenting. 

Tomorrow is always a clean slate. Consequences should not carry over if possible and should be comparable in severity to the bad choice. 

D7 needs routine and consistency, especially now. I should have as many little routines as possible for her to rely on. Previously if she was a pill at bedtime about teeth, bath, bed, etc, I would take away songs or story time. The therapist recommends always keeping that bed time routine intact and finding a different consequence.

After the session I took D out to lunch. This kid will not eat mushrooms. Won't have it. Yet, when we arrive she says she wants the portobello ravioli. 

She described a meal her mother had ordered there in the past. I told her there were mushrooms and asked if she was sure. She was firm. She ate the meal and loved it. 

"I found a way that I like mushrooms!!"

I see this as progress. She is stepping out of her comfort zone a little and finding a way to cope and connect with her good memories of her mom.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I find that children and family are actually excellent places to practice boundaries.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Best place you can find - unless it's with your mother.


----------



## Tomara

zillard said:


> I observed something a little weird this weekend.
> 
> T invited me to her friend's wedding. We both dressed up and looked fantastic. It was actually a great time.
> 
> She was wearing a lot of jewelry so I didn't notice at first. But during the ceremony she was holding my hand and I noticed she had a ring on her ring finger, left hand. It didn't really look like a wedding ring and she had a couple others on too, but...
> 
> I didn't say anything. After the ceremony I took a bathroom break. When I came back out and sat down she mentioned that someone had just referred to me as her husband.
> 
> Z - Well, you do have a ring on your finger.
> 
> She did seem surprised and moved it to her other hand. I then joked that because I'm not wearing one people probably think I'm her AP boy toy.
> 
> She explained that she has a few fake wedding rings she wears to work in order to fend off unwanted advances. Put it on out of habit.
> 
> I'm a bit skeptical though.



Don't be skeptical, I do the exact same thing.


----------



## BWBill

Good advice on the parenting. We tried to make sure that the kids always went to bed feeling safe and loved.

Of course, then they turned into teenagers . . .


----------



## TheGoodGuy

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

Hi ZEEEE 

I have taken the time to read your threads from the beginning. I have known a few people that have been successful. They were unfortunate to be successful without failure.

Their misfortune will be that they could not replicate their success without failure let alone catastrophic personal failures as you have experienced. Lessons learned through theses failures are the most important in life. As I call them “The opportunities of failure”

Your accomplishments are in a word astounding. Many will learn from you (including myself).As a father of four I will just say I am so proud of your progress with D7 (by the way we would love to know her name)

Your parents I am sure are very proud of you. Your future is bright my young friend as well as D7 with all your family support.
My only hope is that D7’s mom does not give up on herself.

Here is my only parenting advice:

Raise your child to make a difference and stand up for the rights of others to lead not follow

And simply love that child


----------



## Conrad

TheGoodGuy said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Conrad said:


> I agree


Good. I've apparently learned something. Don't try to reply from this mother $&:/:;-& phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I was getting pretty stressed the last week or so. Dealing with the unknown in regards to the house, where D7 will be going to school, etc. 

Meditation certainly helps with this, but I see I have plenty of room for growth and improvement. Things are going well though. 

I was finally able to get a structural engineer out to the property to certify that the place is sound. All is well so I'm now under contract and should be closing on the house in 2 weeks (right when school starts). I was pleasantly surprised to see that the owner finished the floors in 2 of the rooms (something she didn't have to do). :smthumbup:

Also, X called me yesterday to ask if next week is ok for her to come and visit D7. No 2 weeks notice per the plan. No one week notice per our recent verbal agreement. But I am not being a stickler there, this time. 

D7 has been refusing to call her mom yet expressing how much she misses seeing her in person. She has some anger there. I agreed to the visit - summer is her time. It will be good for her. 

X and D7 will both be staying at my mother's house for the week. On one hand I'm looking forward to a break and spending some adult time with Tiger. On the other, I am anxious about not having my daughter for a week. 

I don't recall ever being away from her for a week. But that means this is good for me. Hard is good. 

Of course I can always stop by my parents' house and see her, but that is complicated. I do not want to give D7 false hope of R by spending much time with both of them together... there. 

I'll have to feel it out. The situation is weird and like I said before, I doubt X will last a week there anyway. 

I told X that she should be the one to tell D7 she is coming. She did on a phone call last night. It was the first time I've heard D say "I love you" to her mom since we moved. 

I fear that after this visit (should it actually happen), it may be harder on D7 than the original move. But that is out of my control and the reason I have her in weekly IC sessions. 

X did mention the Thanksgiving visit again. She said that "they" are open to flying up and flying back with D7 so she doesn't have to fly alone and so I don't have to fly with her. 

"Because you've been paying everything for health insurance and all that, which is expensive."


----------



## 06Daddio08

Are you prepared to send your ex packing if things don't pan out at your mother's? The whole "I don't have the money for a hotel" line is entirely possible and tossing your daughter in the mix against you may happen as well.

I'm no longer one for thinking over the top, but you never know. I get a small smelling hint of a gameplay to end up back at your place.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Are you prepared to send your ex packing if things don't pan out at your mother's? The whole "I don't have the money for a hotel" line is entirely possible and tossing your daughter in the mix against you may happen as well.
> 
> I'm no longer one for thinking over the top, but you never know. I get a small smelling hint of a gameplay to end up back at your place.


I see no reason for X to step foot in my apartment... much less stay here. Out of the question. 

It would be bad for me, bad for D7, and disrespectful to Tiger as well. 

Simply inappropriate.

If she can't handle my parents' house - she is on her own.


----------



## zillard

For a bit it was looking like if I chose not to move forward with the house, moving back in with my mother for a short spell would be a good option. Only until I closed on a different house, as I can not go month to month in the apartment and need to be out at EOM. 

Tiger was joking that it would be funny if X came to visit while D and I were there too. 

I said no. 

Fitness test.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I see no reason for X to step foot in my apartment... much less stay here. Out of the question.
> 
> It would be bad for me, bad for D7, and disrespectful to Tiger as well.
> 
> Simply inappropriate.
> 
> If she can't handle my parents' house - she is on her own.


Great answer.


----------



## zillard

X called to give me her flight info. 

X "I didn't make the reservations. I'm no good at that stuff so it was done for me"

Looks like she found a fixer. 

X "my voice sounds so bad. I sound like a raspy phone sex operator"

Z - ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X called to give me her flight info.
> 
> X "I didn't make the reservations. I'm no good at that stuff so it was done for me"
> 
> Looks like she found a fixer.
> 
> X "my voice sounds so bad. I sound like a raspy phone sex operator"
> 
> Z - ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you have your armor on.


----------



## Mavash.

I don't think this is going to quite go the way she thinks it will. 

Unless your parents are fixers too.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> I don't think this is going to quite go the way she thinks it will.
> 
> Unless your parents are fixers too.


Where do you think I learned it? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Where do you think I learned it?


Good thing you're well beyond it all meow and what goes on there is all on them.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> Where do you think I learned it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was hoping you weren't going to say that but you're right we learn this crap from our childhoods.


----------



## zillard

Mom - X is going to be here tomorrow. I'm a little nervous.

Z - I can understand why. X is probably pretty nervous too.

Mom - Do you think she'll last the whole week here?

Z - I doubt it. She had a hard time when we were married. 

Mom - She was drinking when she was here. I knew about it. Do you think she will? She isn't doing drugs is she?

Z - I don't know. 

Mom - What do I do if...

Z - That's up to you. This is between you and her. 

Mom - What about food? What do I do about that?

Z - That's up to you. You set the rules in your house.


----------



## Mavash.

Z do you ever give advice to anyone in real life?


----------



## zillard

Yes, if its something I'm schooled in. Also if solicited. I've found the more I hold back unsolicited advise, the more I'm solicited for advise. 

How my brother should move on after a divorce? Sure. 

Where my sister should start with self help books? Sure. 

How my mother should be with X? I have no experience with mother - former DIL relationships. 

I'm curious to see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

We are as free and as bound as we believe we are.
-Nithya Shanti


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Mom - X is going to be here tomorrow. I'm a little nervous.
> 
> Z - I can understand why. X is probably pretty nervous too.
> 
> Mom - Do you think she'll last the whole week here?
> 
> Z - I doubt it. She had a hard time when we were married.
> 
> Mom - She was drinking when she was here. I knew about it. Do you think she will? She isn't doing drugs is she?
> 
> Z - I don't know.
> 
> Mom - What do I do if...
> 
> Z - That's up to you. This is between you and her.
> 
> Mom - What about food? What do I do about that?
> 
> Z - That's up to you. You set the rules in your house.


Yeah ... all things that should've been worked out between them before they agreed to this. You're definitely no "middle man".


----------



## zillard

Yesterday I got D7 ready for her week at Grandma's with her mom. She was very excited. 

She asked me to print out a picture of the two of us, for her to take with her as she'll miss me. I took her over before X arrived. Got her settled in and she hung out picture over the bed she's using.

She pulled out a plastic snake she had packed and told me her plan. 

D7 - Mom hasn't seen this snake in a long time. So I'm going to scare her with it. Want to know my plan!?

Z - Yes! 

D7 - I'm going to put it in the bed sheets and she'll totally freak out! 

:smthumbup: She rocks.

I left to go back to work - X was running late. Then D wanted her cell phone dropped off so she could call me. So I took it back over. 

X was there by then - standing out front. She asked about school and I told her about the new house. She made a point to tell me how Ringo had helped her pack and saw her off. 

I gave the phone to D7, said goodbye, and left. 

Later I texted and asked if she'd like to take D7 to her IC appointment today and meet the child psych. She agreed.

I then had a good evening with T at meditation, then food and a few drinks. It seems she plans on keeping me pretty occupied this week.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Mom - X is going to be here tomorrow. I'm a little nervous.
> 
> Z - I can understand why. X is probably pretty nervous too.
> 
> Mom - Do you think she'll last the whole week here?
> 
> Z - I doubt it. She had a hard time when we were married.
> 
> Mom - She was drinking when she was here. I knew about it. Do you think she will? She isn't doing drugs is she?
> 
> Z - I don't know.
> 
> Mom - What do I do if...
> 
> Z - That's up to you. This is between you and her.
> 
> Mom - What about food? What do I do about that?
> 
> Z - That's up to you. You set the rules in your house.


I am certain there was such a rush of freedom in this conversation you could barely contain yourself.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I am certain there was such a rush of freedom in this conversation you could barely contain yourself.


It feels good to wash your hands.


----------



## zillard

Tiger's car broke down. She had it towed back to her place and mentioned it in conversation later. No cries for help from this one. 

She has not asked me to take a look at it, so I haven't. Instead I drove over and cooked her dinner. Sweet without fixing.

In the morning as she was getting ready for work, I drove home. She did not ask for a ride. I did not offer. 

Later that afternoon I told her I would be dropping my brother off at the airport (~2hr drive). She offered to come along if I wanted company. 

My bro was staying at my mother's with X and D7. I asked if all was ok. He said it was awkward at first but fine. 

He told us that X asked him if Tiger and I are seeing each other. He told her he didn't know. 

X then asked if I was happy. He told her that I seem to be. She replied "he can put on a good front" and that she and Tiger talk from time to time on FB. 

Tiger is amused that a "like" here and there is considered conversing now days.

X was clearly baiting my brother. If she was talking to Tiger, she would know we are dating. lol


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Tiger's car broke down. She had it towed back to her place and mentioned it in conversation later. No cries for help from this one.
> 
> She has not asked me to take a look at it, so I haven't. Instead I drove over and cooked her dinner. Sweet without fixing.
> 
> In the morning as she was getting ready for work, I drove home. She did not ask for a ride. I did not offer.
> 
> Later that afternoon I told her I would be dropping my brother off at the airport (~2hr drive). She offered to come along if I wanted company.
> 
> My bro was staying at my mother's with X and D7. I asked if all was ok. He said it was awkward at first but fine.
> 
> He told us that X asked him if Tiger and I are seeing each other. He told her he didn't know.
> 
> X then asked if I was happy. He told her that I seem to be. She replied "he can put on a good front" and that she and Tiger talk from time to time on FB.
> 
> Tiger is amused that a "like" here and there is considered conversing now days.
> 
> X was clearly baiting my brother. If she was talking to Tiger, she would know we are dating. lol


X is staying in your mother's home with your daughter. 

She's asking your brother if you are dating her "friend".

How surreal. 

It must suck living in the dark.


----------



## hope4family

It's always humorous to me, that they pry, they want to know so much. Yet you really don't care. 

When the day comes when my ex-wife asks me about who I am dating, I already know my response though. Something i'm intentionally saving for that positive moment.


----------



## Mavash.

Its easier to focus on other people than ourselves.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> X is staying in your mother's home with your daughter.
> 
> She's asking your brother if you are dating her "friend".
> 
> How surreal.
> 
> It must suck living in the dark.


Anyone familiar with Z's ex isn't surprised one bit.

Why be direct when you can be yourself?


----------



## Lifescript

It's funny how they try to find out stuff about you when their actions said they didn't care. 

X is now liking posts of my friends and family members on FB. She never did much of that before.


----------



## Mavash.

Script in your case she likes you better when you're unavailable. Then the delusion is similar to Z's ex. The focus is on you so they don't have to look in the mirror.

You're a coping mechanism, a figment of their imagination, it's not about you as an actual human.


----------



## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> Script in your case she likes you better when you're unavailable. Then the delusion is similar to Z's ex. The focus is on you so they don't have to look in the mirror.
> 
> You're a coping mechanism, a figment of their imagination, it's not about you as an actual human.


Ouch.


----------



## hope4family

Mavash. said:


> Script in your case she likes you better when you're unavailable. Then the delusion is similar to Z's ex. The focus is on you so they don't have to look in the mirror.
> 
> You're a coping mechanism, a figment of their imagination, it's not about you as an actual human.


Yup. 

I think a lot of spouses treat others this way. It's like my ex-wife today saying my son has chicken pox, but not taking him to a doctor for diagnosis. 

I said just pointedly, "you can't get chicken pox twice, did you take him to a doctor." 

Ex, "Don't tell me I'm wrong." 

Forget the fact your child has a serious illness. Keep the focus on me.


----------



## Mavash.

Ceegee said:


> Ouch.


Look I've gone full circle on this. I thought I loved my husband back in the early days and yet my actions said otherwise. I treated him like crap and blamed him for everything. 

I loved him the most when he ignored me. 

Sorry for my glib post. My point was being unavailable is attractive to broken people. We want what we think we can't have because that's what our parents did to us.


----------



## hope4family

Mavash. said:


> Look I've gone full circle on this. I thought I loved my husband back in the early days and yet my actions said otherwise. I treated him like crap and blamed him for everything.
> 
> I loved him the most when he ignored me. Why? Because I hoped to get it right this time so I specifically chose someone I couldn't have.
> 
> Sorry for my glib post. My point was being unavailable is attractive to broken people. We want what we think we can't have because that's what our parents did to us.


And when you were broken. When you got what you wanted. It infuriated you, or left you feeling empty didn't it?


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



hope4family said:


> Yup.
> 
> I think a lot of spouses treat others this way. It's like my ex-wife today saying my son has chicken pox, but not taking him to a doctor for diagnosis.
> 
> I said just pointedly, "you can't get chicken pox twice, did you take him to a doctor."
> 
> Ex, "Don't tell me I'm wrong."
> 
> Forget the fact your child has a serious illness. Keep the focus on me.


It's like ex texting me at 5 am two days ago, complaining that the kids are always sick when she gets them. Then saying she seriously is concerned (along with her family) on how they're being treated while under my care.

She was "aware" enough to assume I'd take it as an attack. She never followed up with calling me about it like she said she would.

I replied by email and said my piece, I'm not calling her.

She was angry at having to be up with my son and of course I'm to blame.


----------



## Mavash.

hope4family said:


> And when you were broken. When you got what you wanted. It infuriated you, or left you feeling empty didn't it?


I was compelled to fvck it up then it infuriated me. Lol


----------



## hope4family

06Daddio08 said:


> It's like ex texting me at 5 am two days ago, complaining that the kids are always sick when she gets them. Then saying she seriously is concerned (along with her family) on how they're being treated while under my care.
> 
> She was "aware" enough to assume I'd take it as an attack. She never followed up with calling me about it like she said she would.
> 
> I replied by email and said my piece, I'm not calling her.
> 
> She was angry at having to be up with my son and of course I'm to blame.


My ex has trojan horsed me plenty of times. My favorite was sun poisoning. 

I am righteously upset over it. Her response. "He didn't sleep well for me." 

My mistake to talk to her as if she cares.


----------



## Ceegee

Mavash. said:


> Look I've gone full circle on this. I thought I loved my husband back in the early days and yet my actions said otherwise. I treated him like crap and blamed him for everything.
> 
> I loved him the most when he ignored me.
> 
> Sorry for my glib post. My point was being unavailable is attractive to broken people. We want what we think we can't have because that's what our parents did to us.


No need to apologize Mav. I wasn't critiquing your post. I was sympathizing with how H4F's wife treated him. 

I know how it feels.


----------



## BWBill

_Tiger's car broke down. She had it towed back to her place and mentioned it in conversation later. No cries for help from this one. 

She has not asked me to take a look at it, so I haven't. Instead I drove over and cooked her dinner. Sweet without fixing.

In the morning as she was getting ready for work, I drove home. She did not ask for a ride. I did not offer. _


I understand the concept of not wanting to become a "fixer", but it's difficult for me to see how a healthy relationship can grow if you don't help each other out, or at least talk about problems. Aren't you concerned that she might be afraid to talk to you about issues she may be facing? 

How would you have reacted if she asked you for a ride? How does she think you would react?


----------



## hope4family

BWBill said:


> _Tiger's car broke down. She had it towed back to her place and mentioned it in conversation later. No cries for help from this one.
> 
> She has not asked me to take a look at it, so I haven't. Instead I drove over and cooked her dinner. Sweet without fixing.
> 
> In the morning as she was getting ready for work, I drove home. She did not ask for a ride. I did not offer. _
> 
> 
> I understand the concept of not wanting to become a "fixer", but it's difficult for me to see how a healthy relationship can grow if you don't help each other out, or at least talk about problems. Aren't you concerned that she might be afraid to talk to you about issues she may be facing?
> 
> How would you have reacted if she asked you for a ride? How does she think you would react?


I think the point is. Not helping unless asked.


----------



## BWBill

I actually understand the point, and I repeat that I understand not wanting to become a fixer.

I don't think that a relationship in which the parties don't talk about everyday problems, and that help is not offered, but needs to be asked for, is healthy (certainly not long-term).


----------



## 06Daddio08

hope4family said:


> I think the point is. Not helping unless asked.


I have to agree with BWBill on this one, I thought the same thing when I originally read it.

When you care for someone, you offer to help them at times even when they aren't asking for it. Why? Because it can feel good to help those who you care about.

Now, offering to help when not asked so you can get a thank you after or be recognized for it .. is bad. Being afraid to do so because you feel that you may be taken advantage of later on with repeat situations of various varieties, is bad.

I have at times mentioned this or that without any intent on seeking assistance, such as being asked how my day has been or other parts of my life and I have been offered suggestions or help.

Example, a guy at work asked how my new car was running since I bought it a few months ago. I told him it was running really good and the only problem I had was adjusting my headlight. The stupid plastic snapped on the previous owner I guess (most likely tried doing it in the winter) and I had to look around for something to fix it up.

He offered to bring in this crazy good glue and try it out. It worked great, didn't even know they made glue that strong.

Now, was I seeking help or aid? Nope, I had every intention of looking around for some sort of fix but during an open and innocent conversation a friend lent me a hand.


----------



## Conrad

BWBill said:


> I actually understand the point, and I repeat that I understand not wanting to become a fixer.
> 
> I don't think that a relationship in which the parties don't talk about everyday problems, and that help is not offered, but needs to be asked for, is healthy (certainly not long-term).


There are legions of (mostly) men on these boards who jumped to help before they were asked.

How'd it work out for them?


----------



## 06Daddio08

Conrad said:


> There are legions of (mostly) men on these boards who jumped to help before they were asked.
> 
> How'd it work out for them?


Offering help once and a while isn't 'jumping' at anything, being kind and helpful when you're okay with it isn't 'jumping'. You do not need to be asked every.single.time, which is where compassion and empathy come into play.

Living in fear of being taken advantage of because you help out every once and a while when not asked isn't any better than 'jumping' to fix everything 24/7.


----------



## BWBill

_There are legions of (mostly) men on these boards who jumped to help before they were asked.

How'd it work out for them?_

Your implication is that it is either one (don't help without being asked) or the other (always fix). 

I am saying that those are two extremes and that good relationships find a middle ground.


----------



## Conrad

Old Today, 05:17 PM
Remove user from ignore list06Daddio08
This message is hidden because 06Daddio08 is on your ignore list.


----------



## Conrad

BWBill said:


> _There are legions of (mostly) men on these boards who jumped to help before they were asked.
> 
> How'd it work out for them?_
> 
> Your implication is that it is either one (don't help without being asked) or the other (always fix).
> 
> I am saying that those are two extremes and that good relationships find a middle ground.


And it's very prudent in a young relationship to resist the codependent urges that sabotaged the last relationship.


----------



## 06Daddio08

hope4family said:


> My ex has trojan horsed me plenty of times. My favorite was sun poisoning.
> 
> I am righteously upset over it. Her response. "He didn't sleep well for me."
> 
> My mistake to talk to her as if she cares.


The text actually woke me up 45 minutes earlier than my alarm, I wasn't even angry about it (being woken up early or the text content itself). Since we had our mini battle a month or so ago, I sat down and told myself 'not again', I recalled what I had said and it smoothed things over for myself.

I had a similar experience back in November, it was a lot more intense though and had to do with the whole 'loss of a marriage' and being 'lonely'. Surprisingly though, that exact moment I said 'I'm done' got me through a lot of upcoming issues between us. It basically neutralized my knee jerk reactions I once had.

When I replied, I was level headed and honest in the e-mail. I most likely said more than I should have but it was in fact more about myself than her and I was okay with it. I said all I had to say (as I don't intent on verbally talking to her more than I have to for the kids) and was content with the fact she may not even reply. No real point for her to, I felt as though I covered all the bases.

Didn't matter what she thought of it, it was actually more for me. I felt pumped up after reading it and realized just how good of a job I do with the kids. I know they are now both in daycare full time and kids get sick, germs make kids sick, not a lack of clothing for a couple days. Regardless of what her and her family thinks, I do a fine good job with my kids.


----------



## BWBill

_And it's very prudent in a young relationship to resist the codependent urges that sabotaged the last relationship. 
_


I agree.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Conrad said:


> Old Today, 05:17 PM
> Remove user from ignore list06Daddio08
> This message is hidden because 06Daddio08 is on your ignore list.


You can spam the childish ignore messages all you want Conrad, I will still make my opinion known while you read them from another account.


----------



## 06Daddio08

BWBill said:


> I am saying that those are two extremes and that good relationships find a middle ground.


Exactly. It happens with boundaries, if Zillard offers a helping hand from time to time that's because he's okay with it. If she doesn't like the fact that he did it when he felt okay with it and not when he felt otherwise, that's on her. Not him.

It works the other way around as well.


----------



## Conrad

BWBill said:


> _And it's very prudent in a young relationship to resist the codependent urges that sabotaged the last relationship.
> _
> 
> 
> I agree.


If we have those tendencies, we simply must self-regulate them for a healthier tomorrow.


----------



## 06Daddio08

On a side note, by no means am I judging you for not offering a hand without being asked Zillard. You're situation is simply the example that sparked a conversation. I personally think you've done an amazing job at pacing the relationship not only between Tiger and yourself, but with your daughter and its entirety as well.


----------



## Mavash.

Conrad said:


> And it's very prudent in a young relationship to resist the codependent urges that sabotaged the last relationship.


Being a codependent fixer is like a disease or sickness. It's a must to abstain from these behaviors until the urge to do so passes. In new relationships it's a MUST because it sets the precedence. Start as you mean to go. This is very very hard to stop once you start fixing other people's problems.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Mavash. said:


> Being a codependent fixer is like a disease or sickness. It's a must to abstain from these behaviors until the urge to do so passes. In new relationships it's a MUST because it sets the precedence. Start as you mean to go. This is very very hard to stop once you start fixing other people's problems.


Reading a book on relationships that says the first 60 days of any relationship our critical. That's where the ground rules need to be set. If respect and trust is not established in the beginning, it's hard to do it after.


----------



## Mavash.

I've been married for 22 years and I still have to be mindful of the fixing/rescuing behavior. My husband isn't one to ask for help but he's aware it's a problem. 

Sometimes I choose to let him flounder, sometimes I choose to offer my help and sometimes I choose to use this as a teaching tool. I'll gently tell him afterwards that I would have helped him had he asked me. And then there is everything in between. Sometimes I'll let him flounder for a day or even months before offering help.

The common factor in this is to PAUSE and think. Before I'd rescue without one thought as to whether the other person even wanted or needed my help. Totally codependent. LOL


----------



## zillard

I don't feel judged, and this is a good conversation. 

For me the car issue was a small trigger. When first dating X her car kept breaking down. I came to the rescue each and every time, taking care of everything myself. And it set a dangerous precedent. 

Middle ground is important, yes. 

The next day when T offered to keep me company on the trip to the airport, I responded by offering to pick her up. 

She was uncomfortable with me doing so until I made it clear that I was absolutely ok with doing so. 

Then yesterday... she showed up at my apartment (after asking to come over) in her now running car. She took care of it. 

We do talk. More open and often than I did with X, about the real stuff. Last night we had a long conversation about our triggers as former BSs and how each of us can respect the new boundaries we have each formed.


----------



## BWBill

_I don't feel judged . . ._

I'm glad because I'm certainly not in a position to judge anyone.

My wife has some fixing tendancies and that causes me to not discuss certain things with her. I don't consider that healthy, as I think I indicated earlier, but it is a practical solution in some cases.


----------



## Mavash.

Funny I used to be judgemental AND I thought everyone judged me.

Healing stopped both of these problems.

I no longer judge and could care less if someone judges me.


----------



## zillard

I got a call from my mother this morning. 

Mom - X is still asleep and her plane leaves at Xam.

Z - Well she needs to leave if she wants to catch the plane. 

Mom - Do I wake her up though? I don't want to be codependent, but I'm ready to have no more company. 

Z - If that's why you want her up, then wake her up.

I later took a break from work and drove over to see D7 and make sure the goodbye went ok. I spoke with my mother outside and asked her how it went. 

M - It was soo sad. I cried. She cried. X cried. I'm so glad you have her Z. X just talks and talks and talks.

Z - Yes, she does. With no filter.

M - I'm soo glad she doesn't have her. And I'm glad I don't have company any more. I'm pretty sure she was drinking, but I didn't say anything because I don't have any proof. She kept D7 up til midnight each night, but they had fun. D7 has been wined and dined. 

I went in and D7 grabbed my hand and pulled me into the other room to show me the school clothes X had got for her. She was very lovey but in good spirits. 

Her little cousin asked me, "Z, why does her mom live so far away?"

Z - Because that's where she decided to move. 

D7 - Yeah, she now lives with a man named Ringo.

I talked to my Dad a bit while the kids played. 

Dad - D have been laughing and having a blast all week. X kept her up til midnight, then would pace around the house til 2 am and sleep until noon. 

Z - Sounds about right. 

Dad - She wouldn't stop talking my ear off. "Shut up and go to bed, X!" he said jokingly. 

My brother also said it went ok. Until yesterday when she kept talking about Ringo. Lil Bro told her "Maybe this isn't the best place to talk about him" and then left the house. 

D7 didn't want to come back home with me this morning. She wanted to stay and play with the cousins, so I let her. Tonight I am taking her camping next to a water park with T and her daughter. 

Then next week she starts school and we should be moving into the new house next weekend. Then our standard school year routines can start again. It will be good for her.


----------



## angelpixie

That's a good rundown of what happened, Z, but how are you doing with all of it?


----------



## zillard

I've observed a few things about myself this last week. 

I almost always refer to my parent's house as "my mom's". Never "Dad's". 

I believe this stems from childhood, when Dad was always away - working very hard to support his huge family - and Mom ran the household. 

I have a deeper bond with my mother, for sure, but also more issues. I rarely questioned my father's love for me, but was not blind to the lack of a deep connection there due to absence (even though I found the reason for his absence commendable). 

So I'm working on fixing that in my dialogue. My parents' house. My parents' house. 

---

This week I spent a lot of time at Tiger's house. I stayed there 2 nights in a row, and it was really nice. It feels comfortable. 

Last night I was there for hours but came home to sleep. She wanted me to stay, but I felt I needed a night to myself. She said she understands if I "want or need" to go home. 

It seems to me that I am really good with how things are now, but not ready to take the relationship further yet. The good thing is I don't feel pressured.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> That's a good rundown of what happened, Z, but how are you doing with all of it?


It was certainly challenging to be away from D7 for the week. More than once I found myself wanting to stop over and check on things... but I stopped myself. 

I called D7 during but went unanswered. I was instantly bummed but reminded myself she was having a good time with her mom, which isn't about me. 

It was nice having a free week, too. I got to focus on myself and also have some quality time with T. She was very supportive and caring, which I appreciate. 

I feel for D7, knowing that she likely won't see her mother again until Thanksgiving. That's hard for me, but will be. It's a part of my life now. 

It also will not be easy for her. But I am here. 

I still think this move was the best option. 

For a while I contemplated staying in my old state, so D could be around X. If I had, would she have still moved to California with her new guy? 

Likely. Then where would I be? Alone with D7, no family support, and new resentments and regrets.

I done good.


----------



## Mavash.

You've done better than good you've done awesome!!

You're an inspiration to everyone who has followed your story.


----------



## angelpixie

Mavash. said:


> You've done better than good you've done awesome!!
> 
> You're an inspiration to everyone who has followed your story.


:iagree:


----------



## hope4family

We all make choices Z. 

You took advice, and ran with it. In an hour of self preservation. You took care of and worked on the man in the mirror. Now you see great results!

I'm happy for you!


----------



## zillard

X sent me a pic of Ringo with their new puppy to show D7. 

How cute.


----------



## hope4family

Gotta fill those empty holes somehow.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> X sent me a pic of Ringo with their new puppy to show D7.
> 
> How cute.


That poor puppy.


----------



## angelpixie

Ceegee said:


> That poor puppy.


:rofl:


----------



## Ceegee

Ceegee said:


> That poor puppy.


Hope he likes spaghetti sauce and vegan/vegetarian fare.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Hope he likes spaghetti sauce and vegan/vegetarian fare.


It's funny. I'm actually closer to vegan now than X ever was. 

Still wearing the skinny jeans I bought after the DDay Diet. 

The most common comment from my family members during X's stay: "she's gaining weight".


----------



## zillard

Ah, X bought a new bottle of her Juicy Couture perfume for D7. 

What a perfect gift! 

Soo funny. lol


----------



## hope4family

Anything to keep her on your mind. 

My mom calls this "being bad to get attention." 

Of course, you can't rule out that she is just clueless.


----------



## zillard

Every problem is based on some kind of misunderstanding. 

The solution lies in questioning our assumptions. 

To question our assumptions we need to be open and see things clearly.

To be open and see things clearly we need to be still. 

In receptive stillness all the solutions to all our problems can be found. 

- Nithya Shanti


----------



## Freak On a Leash

zillard said:


> Ah, X bought a new bottle of her Juicy Couture perfume for D7.
> 
> What a perfect gift!
> 
> Soo funny. lol


Oh I got a BETTER one! For my daughter's 19th birthday my ex brought over and left at our door for a gift:

Pot roast, mashed potatoes and gravy. A bottle of sparkling apple juice and chocolate pretzels. 

I told my son that maybe for his Sweet 16 he'll get a turkey with stuffing. :rofl:

What an idiot. It sat in the fridge for a week uneaten and I ate some before throwing it out. Except the juice and pretzels. They got eaten.

I gotta say the man can still cook but he doesn't think about things much. Pot roast for a 19 year old daughter....

And I guess your X shows that he's not alone when it come to weird gifts.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Of course, you can't rule out that she is just clueless.


I would think that if I didn't know her better. 

She doesn't complain about elementary school kids wearing heels and grown-up clothes and then give her own daughter perfume on the fly.

She'll tell herself all day and night that she is clueless, etc. But it is only a diversion for/from herself.


----------



## zillard

This last weekend at the water park/resort D7 and Tiger's D3 were playing in the ball pit, having a blast. 

I leaned over and kissed Tiger on the cheek. 

Immediately we heard D7's voice from the ball pit. "I SAW that!"

Z - Saw what?

D7 - You know what. I saw.

lol. She said it jokingly, but I talked to her about it later. She understands... she just doesn't want to see it. Fair enough. I've been told.

---

Last night Tiger went fishing. 

She sent me a screenshot of a social media exchange. Her girlfriend liked and commented on a photo she posted of us. Her friend asked when the wedding was, or when were going to be moving in together. 

I didn't bite. 

Z -  I like the photo too.

T - haha


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> This last weekend at the water park/resort D7 and Tiger's D3 were playing in the ball pit, having a blast.
> 
> I leaned over and kissed Tiger on the cheek.
> 
> Immediately we heard D7's voice from the ball pit. "I SAW that!"
> 
> Z - Saw what?
> 
> D7 - You know what. I saw.
> 
> lol. She said it jokingly, but I talked to her about it later. She understands... she just doesn't want to see it. Fair enough. I've been told.


She's setting boundaries and enforcing them... against her Dad.

:smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

I dropped off D7 at her first day of second grade this morning. 

She was so excited. I dressed her in a cute skirt and top that her mother bought her when she was here. I surprised her with a new pair of shoes that she loves. Took pictures of her before we left and at the new school. 

All is well. Except I was surprised how hard it was for me. I wasn't expecting to trigger... but wow I did. 

I couldn't hold back tears on the drive home. Such an amazing, intelligent, beautiful girl. I hate the thought of her triggering, feeling anything remotely close to thisl. Seeing all the kids with their moms. 

I hope this is harder for me than it is for her. But I know that likely is backward. 

I realize that my trigger is largely due to an attachment to a delusion that her life should be "normal". I see that. But it is still there. And it still hurts.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I dropped off D7 at her first day of second grade this morning.
> 
> She was so excited. I dressed her in a cute skirt and top that her mother bought her when she was here. I surprised her with a new pair of shoes that she loves. Took pictures of her before we left and at the new school.
> 
> All is well. Except I was surprised how hard it was for me. I wasn't expecting to trigger... but wow I did.
> 
> I couldn't hold back tears on the drive home. Such an amazing, intelligent, beautiful girl. I hate the thought of her triggering, feeling anything remotely close to thisl. Seeing all the kids with their moms.
> 
> I hope this is harder for me than it is for her. But I know that likely is backward.
> 
> I realize that my trigger is largely due to an attachment to a delusion that her life should be "normal". I see that. But it is still there. And it still hurts.


The absolute worst moments.

DeMello promises they'll pass, and they will.

They still suck big ones.


----------



## vi_bride04

What is "normal" now adays, anyways?? I mean really.

Most of us who grew up in "normal" family environments have more issues than people who grew up with just 1 stable parent. 

You give your D that stability. You are an amazing dad and don't doubt that her life is great b/c of that. Yes there will be triggers and sad feelings and all of that. But you 2 together will get through it and be stronger for it.


----------



## Conrad

Z,

When we feel like we've failed our kids, we can let our emotions take charge and do some pretty stupid things.

I don't talk about it much, but when D16 picked the occasion of my 44th birthday to stab herself, I felt like a pretty big failure.

She's D24 now... despite the 3 inch gash she put in her abdomen.

Her old man triggers on that moment every birthday.

But, it's not as bad as it once was


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I dropped off D7 at her first day of second grade this morning.
> 
> She was so excited. I dressed her in a cute skirt and top that her mother bought her when she was here. I surprised her with a new pair of shoes that she loves. Took pictures of her before we left and at the new school.
> 
> All is well. Except I was surprised how hard it was for me. I wasn't expecting to trigger... but wow I did.
> 
> I couldn't hold back tears on the drive home. Such an amazing, intelligent, beautiful girl. I hate the thought of her triggering, feeling anything remotely close to thisl. Seeing all the kids with their moms.
> 
> I hope this is harder for me than it is for her. But I know that likely is backward.
> 
> I realize that my trigger is largely due to an attachment to a delusion that her life should be "normal". I see that. But it is still there. And it still hurts.


Been there man. It's so tough. We want to protect them. Kids shouldn't have to deal with it but sometimes is inevitable like in the case if a sickness. 

Your D will be fine. She seems very mature for her age and she has you.


----------



## zillard

Reposting what I wrote in LovingHusband's thread:

Overall I'm doing very well. Still have ups and downs but that will always be the case. 

The downs are super rough. Really hard. But seeing them for what they are helps them pass. 

And because of this ^ the ups are simply amazing! 

Like in art - the bright whites just don't have the same pop without the dark for contrast.

Who wants a flat grey painting?

----

I was telling a good friend of mine the other day that this has been the best summer that I've had in as long as I can remember. 

I don't see it as coincidence that it immediately followed some of the hardest challenges I've ever experienced.


----------



## Garry2012

I'm there with you too Z. This week has been a rough one for me as the kids have gone with X to their family reunion...a vacation that I always looked forward to. They didnt want to go without me, but I tried to be positive and tell them how much fun they would have and wouldnt even notice i wasnt there. I am still connected to a few of the X family members, so I see some of the pictures of them having a great time there.

It has all triggered the "i failed them" feelings...


----------



## BWBill

_I realize that my trigger is largely due to an attachment to a delusion that her life should be "normal"._

We do the best we can to give our children good childhoods, but our real responsibility is to prepare them to live their own lives.

I think you're doing pretty good at that.


----------



## angelpixie

BWBill said:


> We do the best we can to give our children good childhoods, but our real responsibility is to prepare them to live their own lives.


This is an excellent point. No, we don't want our kids to hurt or have crappy childhoods, etc., but we do a lot when we help them learn how to deal with adversity. If we go before them, paving the way with rose petals, they will turn into entitled adults with no skills to be able to deal with real life. In other words, they'll be like many of our exes.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

zillard said:


> I dropped off D7 at her first day of second grade this morning.
> 
> She was so excited. I dressed her in a cute skirt and top that her mother bought her when she was here. I surprised her with a new pair of shoes that she loves. Took pictures of her before we left and at the new school.
> 
> All is well. Except I was surprised how hard it was for me. I wasn't expecting to trigger... but wow I did.
> 
> I couldn't hold back tears on the drive home. Such an amazing, intelligent, beautiful girl. I hate the thought of her triggering, feeling anything remotely close to thisl. Seeing all the kids with their moms.


A week from now I'll be dropping my 19 year old daughter off at college. I will be bawling like a baby, or drinking like fish.  I'm going to miss her so much. I've spent a lot of quality time with my daughter this summer. Even today, all we did was go shopping for her last minute essentials and have lunch and it was awesome. The rest of the weekend we are going to the beach together. 

I am very close and attached to her but you have to get used to the idea that one day they DO fly out of the nest. She's all excited about going back to school and I'm excited for her but it still makes me sad. 

You raise them well so they can go out into the world and do well. That's our role as parents. It's a hard one. Fortunately her college is only a 35 minute drive away and I'm already making plans for an active Labor Day weekend and fall season. Gotta remember that life doesn't stop when the kids walk out the door. 

Zillard, you are doing great with your daughter. It's awesome you are there for her. Give yourself a giant pat on the back. :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

Thanks for all the kind words, TAMers. 

Your encouragement means a lot.


----------



## zillard

X - Do you have any pics of D7s first day of school? Not being there is killing me. 

X - I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me something.

Z - Yes, I will. 

I messaged her some info about the teachers and class sizes, etc. Then sent her two pics.

X - Thank you so much. You have no idea...

Z - You're welcome. 

X - One thing: ankle socks with the skirts. Lol

Z - Ha. Noted.

X - Not trying to be a ****, but my mom still kicks in. Lol

I'm not responding to that. 

I wonder what it's like to only have your "mom" kick in sporadically. My "dad" is in full gear day and night. And I'll put her in crew cut socks whenever I like.

Because I can.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> X - Do you have any pics of D7s first day of school? Not being there is killing me.
> 
> X - I would greatly appreciate it if you could send me something.
> 
> Z - Yes, I will.
> 
> I messaged her some info about the teachers and class sizes, etc. Then sent her two pics.
> 
> X - Thank you so much. You have no idea...
> 
> Z - You're welcome.
> 
> X - One thing: ankle socks with the skirts. Lol
> 
> Z - Ha. Noted.
> 
> X - Not trying to be a ****, but my mom still kicks in. Lol
> 
> I'm not responding to that.
> 
> I wonder what it's like to only have your "mom" kick in sporadically. My "dad" is in full gear day and night. And I'll put her in crew cut socks whenever I like.
> 
> Because I can.


Have had similar conversations with my X. It's disturbing how they can seemingly turn it off and on like that. I am Dad. That's who I am. Not some facade I put on or take off. But I love it. I love being Dad. Wouldn't trade it for the world.


----------



## Freak On a Leash

I'm a bit confused here.  WHY isn't your daughter with your wife? Isn't she shacking up with some guy? What's up with her priorities? How can you she walk away your 7 year old daughter? :scratchhead:

I wanted to actively divorce my son for more than 10 years before it happened but knew that if I tried my ex would make my life miserable with regards to the kids so I resolved to stay until my son was 18. I was a few years shy (son is 15) but at this point it's pretty much a mute point because my son decides for himself when he sees his father, who is only 3 miles away, so it's not a problem. 

My son pretty much lives in both places and goes back and arranges with his father when he wants to see him so I'm not even involved, thank goodness. I'd hate to have to talk to my ex on a daily basis.


----------



## zillard

Freak On a Leash said:


> I'm a bit confused here.  WHY isn't your daughter with your wife? Isn't she shacking up with some guy? What's up with her priorities? How can you she walk away your 7 year old daughter? :scratchhead:


Why? My X is too wrapped up in her own misery to focus much on anyone but herself. 

I moved out of state with my daughter and then X moved to another state with her new guy.

D7 likely won't see her mom again until thanksgiving. X gave me primary custody and then also gave up her whole summer with D7 this year, except for her recent 4 night visit. 

Now its back to my scheduled time with D for the school year, except for a few holidays.

I understand why now, and yes it all boils down to priorities.

Mine is D. 

Her's is herself.

It's really that simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Why? My X is too wrapped up in her own misery to focus much on anyone but herself.
> 
> I moved out of state with my daughter and then X moved to another state with her new guy.
> 
> D7 likely won't see her mom again until thanksgiving. X gave me primary custody and then also gave up her whole summer with D7 this year, except for her recent 4 night visit.
> 
> Now its back to my scheduled time with D for the school year, except for a few holidays.
> 
> I understand why now, and yes it all boils down to priorities.
> 
> Mine is D.
> 
> Her's is herself.
> 
> It's really that simple.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


7 Months
3,150 Posts
210 Pages

All rolled up into this one brief but accurate explanation.


----------



## Conrad

BWBill said:


> _I realize that my trigger is largely due to an attachment to a delusion that her life should be "normal"._
> 
> We do the best we can to give our children good childhoods, but our real responsibility is to prepare them to live their own lives.


What we've learned here is those 2 things are inextricably linked.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> I wonder what it's like to only have your "mom" kick in sporadically.


From the standpoint of the mom or the daughter?

Unfortunately I know what's it's like from both sides.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Mavash. said:


> From the standpoint of the mom or the daughter?
> 
> Unfortunately I know what's it's like from both sides.


I for one would love to hear about it from the daughter point of view Mavash. It might help me know what's going through my daughters mind. How old we're you when this was happening to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

Z it's sad. But its the reality. 

A good thing that helps me put everything in perspective, is that life by its own very nature, is not meant to be smooth. That helps me with the down swings, and I enjoy the upswings more. 

On the topic of your ex-wife. What can I say, Mothers who want to choose when they can be a parent, simply will continue to do so. At least, from our experience, that's how it works.


----------



## Mavash.

TheGoodGuy said:


> I for one would love to hear about it from the daughter point of view Mavash. It might help me know what's going through my daughters mind. How old we're you when this was happening to you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My parents stayed married so I'm not a child of divorce. However my mom lost interest in me when I was no longer 'cute' so around 6-8. My sister did the same to her daughter. Same age. Sad.


----------



## hope4family

Mavash. said:


> My parents stayed married so I'm not a child of divorce. However my mom lost interest in me when I was no longer 'cute' so around 6-8. My sister did the same to her daughter. Same age. Sad.


I wonder if that will happen with my son. 

Get's so much attention. Because he looks "just like me." 

But what happens when that cuteness wears off? Not going to worry about it. Just got to teach my son to enjoy life and not to stop growing.


----------



## Mavash.

There are people who are into 'babies' and fantasize about how great being a mother is going to be. They didn't get the love they needed as a child so they think having a baby will solve everything.

These women are generally young (my mother was 20 when she had me). At first it's like playing dolls where you dress them up in cute clothes, buy fun toys, and life is good.

Then the kid starts growing up and what was once fun is now work. By then this same mother is closing in on the magical age of 30 where they realize this wasn't exactly what they signed up for. See it all the time.


----------



## Psych

Zillard. I've been following the thread and the one previous. You are an inspiration. I'm glad you're doing well. Love the new Zillard 2.0. 
You bring a lot of hope to those that find themselves in similar situations.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> There are people who are into 'babies' and fantasize about how great being a mother is going to be. They didn't get the love they needed as a child so they think having a baby will solve everything.
> 
> These women are generally young (my mother was 20 when she had me). At first it's like playing dolls where you dress them up in cute clothes, buy fun toys, and life is good.
> 
> Then the kid starts growing up and what was once fun is now work. By then this same mother is closing in on the magical age of 30 where they realize this wasn't exactly what they signed up for. See it all the time.


Yep!

X was 22 when D was born. 
When D was 6 it came to a head.
X was then 29.
Now she has a puppy instead.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> Yep!
> 
> X was 22 when D was born.
> When D was 6 it came to a head.
> X was then 29.
> Now she has a puppy instead.


Same here. Mom got a puppy when I was 10. Cared more for that damn dog than me. Seriously. 

My sister did the same. She treats her two fur babies like royalty and her daughters like peasants.


----------



## zillard

The night before last I was on the phone with Tiger and she invited D7 and I to a play date the next day. It was with her daughter and niece at her parents house.

It was an open invitation, no set time. After picking up D at school we went over. I chose not to call ahead. 

We arrived and T wasn't there yet. I had secretly hoped that would happen. I was able to spend some time with her mother while the kids played, and observe. 

I noted their similarities and I'm really liking her mom.

I told T later that, at the risk of getting slapped, I found her to be very similar to her mother. 

She was surprised that I thought the statement would be risky, because she loves her mother and takes the comparison as a compliment. 

This I like!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yep!
> 
> X was 22 when D was born.
> When D was 6 it came to a head.
> X was then 29.
> Now she has a puppy instead.


I find your daughter's age is when kids really become interesting.


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> I find your daughter's age is when kids really become interesting.


 I agree. This was about the time when DS stopped parroting things and was developing his own sense of humor, creating stories, characters, etc. Every day can have the opportunity for something really cool. Of course, the converse of this is the fact that kids are also starting to develop more of an independent identity and for someone who doesn't have her own mature, fully developed identity (Z's ex, for example), that can be a challenge.


----------



## BWBill

_I find your daughter's age is when kids really become interesting.
_

I agree. 6 to 11 are wonderful years. That's when you build the bonds that carry them through the teens.


----------



## zillard

The other night D7 was on the phone with her mother. She told her mom that Tiger was coming over later (we had plans to watch a movie).

D then asked her mom if they could skype. X agreed so I set it up (only the second time they have done so). 

Meanwhile T arrived. As soon as the skype session was over, my phone started ringing. It was X. 

I could have ignored it, but I was curious. She's only called me a handful of times this summer. 

I picked up and she started rambling about skype. Her computer is doing this and that, blah blah. She was convinced it was an issue on my end. 

Z - I'll install any available updates and you can try again tomorrow. 

D and T were laughing and playing in the background.

X - Sorry if I'm interrupting... anything... that you have going on there. 

Z - Oh, you're fine. I'll do that and you can try again tomorrow. 

X - Ok, well you have a good night! (that was new)

Z - I will.

She started rambling again. I hung up.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> The other night D7 was on the phone with her mother. She told her mom that Tiger was coming over later (we had plans to watch a movie).
> 
> D then asked her mom if they could skype. X agreed so I set it up (only the second time they have done so).
> 
> Meanwhile T arrived. As soon as the skype session was over, my phone started ringing. It was X.
> 
> I could have ignored it, but I was curious. She's only called me a handful of times this summer.
> 
> I picked up and she started rambling about skype. Her computer is doing this and that, blah blah. She was convinced it was an issue on my end.
> 
> Z - I'll install any available updates and you can try again tomorrow.
> 
> D and T were laughing and playing in the background.
> 
> X - Sorry if I'm interrupting... anything... that you have going on there.
> 
> Z - Oh, you're fine. I'll do that and you can try again tomorrow.
> 
> X - Ok, well you have a good night! (that was new)
> 
> Z - I will.
> 
> She started rambling again. I hung up.


Nothing about Ringo?

Damn... inquiring minds want to know


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Nothing about Ringo?
> 
> Damn... inquiring minds want to know


I did have a chat with a nephew of mine that hung out with X and Ringo (he was working in the same area). 

I learned he's:

"kind of a d0uche"

works door to door sales

kept trying to wrestle nephew

was put in a headlock by nephew until X was hitting nephew in the back yelling at him to let go


----------



## hope4family

Kind of a douche. 

Neat.


----------



## angelpixie

I'm sorry for your D's sake, Zil, but that description made me laugh. Sounds kind of pathetic, too. :rofl:


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I did have a chat with a nephew of mine that hung out with X and Ringo (he was working in the same area).
> 
> I learned he's:
> 
> "kind of a d0uche"
> 
> works door to door sales
> 
> kept trying to wrestle nephew
> 
> was put in a headlock by nephew until X was hitting nephew in the back yelling at him to let go


And, even being a douche, he still sounds smarter than posOM.

So, there's that.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> And, even being a douche, he still sounds smarter than posOM.
> 
> So, there's that.


Oh yeah. He seems like a step up from posOM. 

That doesn't say much.

But who knows? 

Maybe he's her white knight. Saves the day. Everything she's always wanted. Her ticket to happiness.


...until he's not.


----------



## zillard

Don't you just love it when a real estate deal goes perfectly?

Ah, what a nice dream.

Both Realtors screwed up the contract again with typos and incorrect dates. The appraiser hasn't completed final sign off yet. Now on addendum #9 and almost every one of them needs to be signed again before closing can be scheduled.

It was supposed to close today. 

Now I get to move my stuff into storage tomorrow and camp out at my parents house for a week. 

BUT - Many of the issues with the house, that I was expecting to do after closing, have now been fixed or completed by the seller!

Floors are done, minus the basement. Basement shower is completed. Siding on the back of the house has been replaced. Railings installed. Baseboards done. etc.

The deal has been a never-ending pain in my arse. But it'll be worth it as I'll be closing with a better hand than what I started with. 

Now I just want it DONE!!


----------



## hope4family

Good luck Z. You deserve a nice house.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oh yeah. He seems like a step up from posOM.
> 
> That doesn't say much.
> 
> But who knows?
> 
> Maybe he's her white knight. Saves the day. Everything she's always wanted. Her ticket to happiness.
> 
> 
> ...until he's not.


She won't notice - until she does.


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> She won't notice - until she does.


He won't know until he's replaced.


----------



## zillard

D7 - Uh! You always look at the bright side. Why do you DO that!? 

I don't feel like it today, but I must be doing something right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I like this "say what you feel in a respectful manner" thing. 

After the bank failed to follow up on their appraiser and the realtor sent over another round of addendums with more typos, I drove to the realtor's office. The seller had contacted me threatening to go with a cash offer because our close date was pushed back to next friday. 

I initiated a conference call at realtors office with both realtors and the loan officer. Note that the realtor's boss is the loan officer's wife. Small towns. Yay. 

I brought up the realtors' mistakes. I started talking about the loan officer's lack of follow through. 

My realtor tried to shush me saying he cant talk (his boss/ loan officers wife was in earshot). 

Z - well I can say whatever I want! 

I continued. I explained that the close date being pushed back was incredibly unfortunate as my daughter and I are homeless after saturday. So I expect this to be expedited.

As I left my realtor says, "well we found you a great deal on a good house" 

Z - ... That I don't have.

As I walked out the door. 

My realtor called me later, offering to let D7 and I stay in his basement until the house closes. He also told me that if the sale falls through he will pay me for any monies lost. As he doesnt want to tarnish the reputation of his group.

The loan officer then called informing me of the exact time the appraiser report would be done. Also that the close date would not be next friday but next tuesday instead.

I'll believe it when I see it, but at least they now know I won't accept failure with a smile.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Attaboy Z. Respectfully holding your ground. Well done.


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Attaboy Z. Respectfully holding your ground. Well done.


Thanks. 

"Don't be a ****" is for the birds. You have to speak your mind if you want to get sh1t done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> Thanks.
> 
> "Don't be a ****" is for the birds. You have to speak your mind if you want to get sh1t done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yup. But it can still be done respectfully at first, which you did. Then if you're still being treated badly you can being out the **** mode.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Yup. But it can still be done respectfully at first, which you did. Then if you're still being treated badly you can being out the **** mode.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its important to note that we recovering codependent nice guys think respectfully disagreeing and standing your ground equals being a ****.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

"The more zen you got the more worried I was."

wtf do you do with that?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Its important to note that we recovering codependent nice guys think respectfully disagreeing and standing your ground equals being a ****.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exceedingly hard habit to break.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Ceegee said:


> Exceedingly hard habit to break.


Which part? Standing up for yourself or worrying about what they will think in the 'future'?


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> "The more zen you got the more worried I was."
> 
> wtf do you do with that?


Was this from the X?


----------



## Pbartender

06Daddio08 said:


> Which part? Standing up for yourself or worrying about what they will think in the 'future'?


The habit of equating assertive self-respect with being an *******.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> My realtor called me later, offering to let D7 and I stay in his basement until the house closes. He also told me that if the sale falls through he will pay me for any monies lost. As he doesnt want to tarnish the reputation of his group.
> 
> The loan officer then called informing me of the exact time the appraiser report would be done. Also that the close date would not be next friday but next tuesday instead.
> 
> I'll believe it when I see it, but at least they now know I won't accept failure with a smile.


Small town nepotism... Gotta love it.

By contrast... Three years ago, when we closed on our house, there was a delay in the closing that was no fault of anyone. Our lease ended, and our land lady wouldn't let us stay... We would have been homeless for three or four days.

Our loan officer put us up in a rather nice hotel at his own expense, without us even having to ask. And the sellers' real estate agent let us store all our stuff in the empty garage of the new house.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Was this from the X?


No. It was from T. In response to my conference call with the fvcktards. 

She was relieved that I got angry and vented.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> No. It was from T. In response to my conference call with the fvcktards.
> 
> She was relieved that I got angry and vented.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I like to see my passive nice guy husband get angry from time to time. It's comforting to see that he's a human with emotions.

I'm pretty zen like most of the time but I still get annoyed.

I think it's good for my husband and my kids to see my human side.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> I like to see my passive nice guy husband get angry from time to time. It's comforting to see that he's a human with emotions.
> 
> I'm pretty zen like most of the time but I still get annoyed.
> 
> I think it's good for my husband and my kids to see my human side.


She did also use the words human and robot. 

It seems Spock is now my guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> Its important to note that we recovering codependent nice guys think respectfully disagreeing and standing your ground equals being a ****.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We recovering co-dependent nice girls think the same thing. Far too easy for others to paint even respectful disagreement as being a b!tch, and no nice girl wants to be b!tchy.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> She did also use the words human and robot.
> 
> It seems Spock is now my guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Took you what...4 or 5 months to show that side of you. She was worried that you might be a bottler and wondering if you were ever going to explode. Nice that it happened towards someone else.

Probably got her all hot and bothered.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> She did also use the words human and robot.
> 
> It seems Spock is now my guy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've been Spock and robotic but that's not what I am now.

I'm more hippy than anything. A total nonconformist. While everyone else is running around like crazy I'm sitting by my pool sipping a cool drink or playing a board game with my family. I see the pointlessness of it all. Like putting my kids in 12 different activities or getting upset is helpful. Lol


----------



## zillard

I am now officially a homeless man.  

Out of the apartment, all my belongings in storage. A combination of camping and crashing at my folks until TBD. 

Let the next adventure begin!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mavash.

Ah it's not so bad. I've been homeless a time or two in my life.

When I bought my first house my husband was 12 hours away and I was stuck at my parents. 

Thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown but I survived it.

That was 21 years ago and now I'm in my forever home.


----------



## zillard

I actually don't feel bad about it today. 

Drivin around town singin and excited about tonight. T's folks invited D7 and I to go camping with family.

My phone has been blowing up with realtors and loan officer and his boss, keeping me informed of each little step being accomplished. Apologies, dinner invites, etc. 

A bunch of my nephews helped with the move and are standby for the next move. They're cheap and will work for crappy beer. 

My dad is surrendering his beloved den for me to work. And D is excited about her "vacation" at grandmas. 

Now I need to inform X. How she takes it doesn't matter.

T joked that she has to break up with me for a week. Her actions say differently. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Keys in hand. The house is mine!

Time to finish the move and figure out what the hell D7 and I are going to do with 6 bedrooms. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

Roommates? Would take care of the mortgage payment. 


Congrats on getting the keys. It's a great feeling, isn't it? :smthumbup:


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> Roommates? Would take care of the mortgage payment.
> 
> Congrats on getting the keys. It's a great feeling, isn't it? :smthumbup:


Thanks 

Best part is its larger than my previous home, bigger lot too, and due to low interest rate is the same mortgage payment (that I made fine while X was a wahm). And my expenses are much lower with one less mouth. 

Comparable to the rent in crappy apartment and soooo much better!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> Roommates? Would take care of the mortgage payment.


Half of it, at any rate...


----------



## Lifescript

Congrats Z.


----------



## zillard

It has a large garden, almost ready to harvest. 

Rows of tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans, pumpkin and squash. 

Apple trees, apricot trees, cherry tree and blackberry bushes.


----------



## angelpixie

Wow, that sounds fantastic, Z! So happy for you and D7.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> It has a large garden, almost ready to harvest.
> 
> Rows of tomatoes, cucumbers, green beans, pumpkin and squash.
> 
> Apple trees, apricot trees, cherry tree and blackberry bushes.


Everything's coming up roses for you, huh? 

Karma has a good side too.


----------



## ReGroup

Congrats Z.

That's incredible news. 

Who would have thunk it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Three neighbor women have stopped by to welcome me. More cookies than we can eat. 

D7*has a classmate that lives next door. Her and her sister who is one grade older knocked on the door this morning to see if D7 could walk with them to school.

The school is 1.5 blocks straight down the quiet tree-lined street. I agreed but walked with them this morning. More for myself than for her. She's growing up so fast. 

I'm letting her walk home with them alone after school, but may or may not be hiding behind a tree somewhere watching like a creepy stalker.


----------



## catcalls

zillard said:


> Keys in hand. The house is mine!
> 
> Time to finish the move and figure out what the hell D7 and I are going to do with 6 bedrooms. Lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


congrats, a new start for both of you. 6 bedrooms !!! Does this mean X can stay next time instead of crashing at your parents :rofl:


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> congrats, a new start for both of you. 6 bedrooms !!! Does this mean X can stay next time instead of crashing at your parents :rofl:


Ha! 

Tiger can't even stay here (when D7 is around). 

Why would I let X?

Is funny –*now that I'm in the house, T and I have been asked more than once when we're moving in together. 

We agree that it is a discussion to be had no sooner than next summer.


----------



## zillard

I had an interesting development yesterday. 

While out to lunch with Tiger, she said there has been something bothering her for some time that she wanted to talk about. 

She was clearly very nervous. 

Her concern was the way I handled D7 after she said she doesn't want to see me kiss T (I told her I wouldn't in front of her). T said her concern was not the kissing, but that a standard was being set of letting D7 dictate the situation. Also that it was an unrealistic promise as the more time we spend together, the more likely D7 will see us being affectionate. 

We discussed the importance of D7 feeling at ease discussing her concerns and being heard. However, T feels I went too far too fast in order to make D feel better - and make myself feel better about D's comfort. 

The beginnings of the inevitable power struggle between D and T? 

Tiger had been sitting and stewing on this for some time. Clear case of little things getting bigger the longer they sit. She explained that she was nervous about saying anything because of her previous relationship - confrontations, constructive criticism etc were met with anger and defensiveness. 

I told her that she had a good point. I thanked her for bringing it up. I asked her to please speak up sooner in the future. And I told her I would discuss it with the child psych. 

Her face and body language relaxed as relief washed over her. She joked that she was ready to punch me if I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way." haha. 

She then told me she was interested in proactively seeing a counselor specializing in blended families - jointly and individually as needed. I love that she is open to therapy. 

Later that day I took D to her appointment and discussed this with the child psych. She stressed the importance of avoiding making promises to kids as it only sets you up for failure. Also that I need to have more talks with D about what having a girlfriend means. That hugging, kissing, etc is a way to show someone you care about them, and that I will do that with my girlfriend. While validating her concerns and feelings, of course. 

And then to be prepared for the questions that will follow: don't you care about Mom anymore, will you stop caring about me, etc.

She informed me that in therapy she isn't seeing much to work with in D7 - she's doing great. "I'm happy to continue working with you two, but..." 

This is great news, but I don't want to pull her out of therapy. Instead we are switching the approach and objective. D7 is currently having a harder time adjusting to all the changes and Dad having a girlfriend than being separated from her mother (on the surface at least). I think we should tackle the things that are sticking up as they happen, keeping mom issues as long term. 

I am now taking her biweekly rather than weekly.


----------



## Mavash.

T sounds like a keeper.


----------



## hope4family

So was it a long term promise you made or just a "as things stand now" type of promise. 

Maybe the issue is that it wasn't communicative enough? 

I see T's point. I see your point and the therapists point. But, I don't think this particular "mistake" will suddenly cause everything to spiral out of control later on down the line. 

It likely has to be a good number of combined mistakes. So, idk bro, seems like you are on top of it. Major props on handling Tigers feelings.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> So was it a long term promise you made or just a "as things stand now" type of promise.
> 
> Maybe the issue is that it wasn't communicative enough?


The latter two. It is a transition period. It was unclear to T that it was not a long term promise. Likely unclear to D as well. 



hope4family said:


> But, I don't think this particular "mistake" will suddenly cause everything to spiral out of control later on down the line.
> 
> It likely has to be a good number of combined mistakes.


I agree. T mentioned that I'm a bit paranoid about screwing up my kid. Also that it's a pretty good problem to have, if kept in check. She's not wrong. 

The child psych echoed this, stating that D7 is really doing great under the circumstances and is very resilient. She also pointed out that D WILL have a hard time with all of this. She won't like seeing me show affection for another woman, no matter how much she likes her. 

There is no avoiding that. There is no way for D7 to fully understand at her age, either. The best we can do is handle things in a way that when D looks back at it with an adult perspective she will understand and see that I did my best.



hope4family said:


> So, idk bro, seems like you are on top of it. Major props on handling Tigers feelings.


Thanks.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Mavash. said:


> T sounds like a keeper.


She's definitely *not* a bricklayer.


----------



## Conrad

T sounds like a keeper to me also.

When you wish for do - overs, I had many a situation quite similar where I went the other direction.

It's what codependents do.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> She's definitely *not* a bricklayer.


She pointed out that she wants to do better at bringing things up as they occur. That this was a small thing and big things will absolutely happen. The statistics are not in our favor so she wants to step up because she wants this to work.

No brick laying allowed.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> She pointed out that she wants to do better at bringing things up as they occur. That this was a small thing and big things will absolutely happen. The statistics are not in our favor so she wants to step up because she wants this to work.
> 
> No brick laying allowed.


Actually, this is a very big thing - potentially.

It could wreck your relationship.


----------



## zillard

D7 informed me that X's new little yippy dog was not her idea. 

Ringo brought it home. 

Seems like a probable attempt to fix on his part. 

Or I'm just projecting. I did exactly that two Xmas back. 

Now I'm stuck with a dog (but he's a good little fuzzy buddy).


----------



## BWBill

_The beginnings of the inevitable power struggle between D and T? 
_

Haven't been on this thread for a while, so this is dated.

I don't think there needs to be conflict. Your daughter has had her mom leave her and then been moved to a new city. You are the only constant in her life and she is understandably attuned to anything that impacts you.

When you think the time is right maybe she and Tiger can have some girl time. Do their nails, do tea, shop for girl stuff, talk about girl stuff, etc. If your relationship with Tiger continues to develop then your daughters own relationship with her needs to develop also. She needs to feel she is not being left behind.


----------



## zillard

Good points. 

T has offered to do the girl time, as soon as I am ok with it.

I know D would like it. She opens up to T already when I am not around. Telling her she likes her, etc, but not when I am present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Good points.
> 
> T has offered to do the girl time, as soon as I am ok with it.
> 
> I know D would like it. She opens up to T already when I am not around. Telling her she likes her, etc, but not when I am present.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's likely a good step to launch that little project.

"Hey T, I've been thinking about your concern and I want you to consider something...."


----------



## zillard

Just got off a call with X. 

Updated her on school, medical, and religous issues. 

X - this is so much harder than I thought it would be. (Crying)

Z - yup
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

I guess Ringo and yippy dog aren't all that.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> I guess Ringo and yippy dog aren't all that.


X - I didn't ask for this dog. Ringo is all into it but I'm going to cook it and wrap it in a tortilla. 

From the dog lover who couldn't live without. Makes me think the endless pleading for our dogs was just a fitness test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

From what I gather. There was few things in your relationship that wasn't a fitness test. 

Says the man who is likely projecting his own feelings.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Just got off a call with X.
> 
> Updated her on school, medical, and religous issues.
> 
> X - this is so much harder than I thought it would be. (Crying)
> 
> Z - yup
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who would have ever thought?


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> X - I didn't ask for this dog. Ringo is all into it but I'm going to cook it and wrap it in a tortilla.
> 
> From the dog lover who couldn't live without. Makes me think the endless pleading for our dogs was just a fitness test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead:

yup


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> X - I didn't ask for this dog. Ringo is all into it but I'm going to cook it and wrap it in a tortilla.
> 
> From the dog lover who couldn't live without. Makes me think the endless pleading for our dogs was just a fitness test.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny. 

My kids have been asking for a dog for years. I said no because the dog would have been alone until 7 or 8 at night everyday. Wouldn't have been fair to dog. 

The X always held this over me. Told kids "sorry, daddy won't let us get a dog".

Well, I've been out of the house for 14 months now and they still don't have one. Kids are saying mom won't let them have one.


----------



## Mavash.

Ceegee said:


> Funny.
> 
> My kids have been asking for a dog for years. I said no because the dog would have been alone until 7 or 8 at night everyday. Wouldn't have been fair to dog.
> 
> The X always held this over me. Told kids "sorry, daddy won't let us get a dog".
> 
> Well, I've been out of the house for 14 months now and they still don't have one. Kids are saying mom won't let them have one.


Why miss a golden opportunity to make her look like the superior parent?

Ick.


----------



## zillard

I've had more talks with D7 about my girlfriend and what that means and does not mean. They have gone really well. 

Of course most of her concern is what it means for her, and the hardship of coming to terms with her parents never reconciling (which will likely always be there).

My parents rented two adjoining condos at a nearby lake resort all last week. Tiger and I took the girls and stayed over Saturday night. 

It was us 4 + my mother and a niece and nephew that night. It was interesting to watch T and my mother observing each other. 

At one point T, D7, niece and I were sitting together at a table. D7 turned to her 5yo cousin.

D7 - Did you know Tiger is my Dad's girlfriend?

Cuz - Yes. It's weird.

T - Yes, it is different. But we have a lot of fun together, don't we?

D7 - Yes!

Cuz - It's weird.

D7 - If they get married I'll have a new stepsister. That would be awesome.

So there was that. Thank you, Dinosaur's Divorce book, for helping my daughter jump the gun. lol.

In all seriousness though, it's good for her to be prepared for the possibility. And I think it's a good sign that D7 seems comfortable enough to talk about this in the open, around everyone.


----------



## zillard

It was recently X's bday. 

D7 wanted to do a photo book, so she helped pick some photos from this summer, vetoed others and we put something together on Shutterfly. 

Some of the photos included Tiger's D3.

X texted to thank me. Said it was the first bday gift that has made her cry. 

X - The pic of D7 and TD3 in the goggles kills me. So awesome.

(we have never talked about T before)

Z - They get along great.

X - I can tell. D7 talks about TD3 all the time. She begged for a little sister for ages. Now she has one. 

Talk about a loaded statement. 

Contemplating if/how to respond.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Contemplating if/how to respond.


Don't. There's no need to.


----------



## angelpixie

Don't. No need to right now.


----------



## angelpixie

jinx


----------



## Pbartender

Mrmph!


----------



## zillard

She's good. 

A response to that could easily confirm or deny our relationship and the depth of it.

I just hope she's cautious about throwing that around with D7.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> She's good.
> 
> A response to that could easily confirm or deny our relationship and the depth of it.


Exactly, and even if you don't mean it to... She _hunting_ for an answer to a question. If you say something, no matter what you say, she will _find_ some kind of answer in it.

Hell, even if you say nothing, she might consider that either a confirmation or denial.


----------



## zillard

Another text. 

X - Im not trying to be snarky. Just so you know. 

"Reply!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It was recently X's bday.
> 
> D7 wanted to do a photo book, so she helped pick some photos from this summer, vetoed others and we put something together on Shutterfly.
> 
> Some of the photos included Tiger's D3.
> 
> X texted to thank me. Said it was the first bday gift that has made her cry.
> 
> X - The pic of D7 and TD3 in the goggles kills me. So awesome.
> 
> (we have never talked about T before)
> 
> Z - They get along great.
> 
> X - I can tell. D7 talks about TD3 all the time. She begged for a little sister for ages. Now she has one.
> 
> Talk about a loaded statement.
> 
> Contemplating if/how to respond.


You will forfeit your Summa Cum Laude status if you respond.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> X - Im not trying to be snarky. Just so you know.


She's not being snarky... just nosy.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> She's not being snarky... just nosy.


The hell with the b!tch.

Yet, she is closer now to awakening than we've ever seen her.

If she does, what will it mean?


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> Another text.
> 
> X - Im not trying to be snarky. Just so you know.
> 
> "Reply!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


X - And I'm still not actually coming out and asking you anything in particular. I just want you to volunteer information.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> X - And I'm still not actually coming out and asking you anything in particular. I just want you to volunteer information.


Oh, it's late. Hey, thanks for the beer.

Tyler Durden: Yeah, man. 

I should find a hotel. 

Tyler Durden: [in disbelief] What? 

What? 

Tyler Durden: A hotel? 

Yeah. 

Tyler Durden: Just ask, man. 

What are you talking about? 

Tyler Durden: Three pitchers of beer, and you still can't ask.

What? 

Tyler Durden: You call me because you need a place to stay.

Oh, hey, no, no, no, I didn't mean... 

Tyler Durden: Yes, you did. Just ask. Cut the foreplay and just ask. 

Would - would that be a problem? 

Tyler Durden: Is it a problem for you to ask?


----------



## vi_bride04

Her world is starting to crumble and Z is living so damn well....

She is going to completely break down with some type of regret/remorse/poor me attention seeking very soon. 

More than what these past few texts have been


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Oh, it's late. Hey, thanks for the beer.
> 
> Tyler Durden: Yeah, man.
> 
> I should find a hotel.
> 
> Tyler Durden: [in disbelief] What?
> 
> What?
> 
> Tyler Durden: A hotel?
> 
> Yeah.
> 
> Tyler Durden: Just ask, man.
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
> Tyler Durden: Three pitchers of beer, and you still can't ask.
> 
> What?
> 
> Tyler Durden: You call me because you need a place to stay.
> 
> Oh, hey, no, no, no, I didn't mean...
> 
> Tyler Durden: Yes, you did. Just ask. Cut the foreplay and just ask.
> 
> Would - would that be a problem?
> 
> Tyler Durden: Is it a problem for you to ask?


Funny example; a two person conversation in the mind of one person.


----------



## angelpixie

Ceegee said:


> Funny example; a two person conversation in the mind of one person.


Shhh!!! :nono:


----------



## zillard

I talked with T last night about this. She was speechless. 

It lead to discussing how everyone is asking us when. Z just bought a house. So when...

T says she currently has no desire to live with me and is comfortable saying so as she's sure I feel the same way.

Z - I like my space. D needs her space too. I want you in my space as much as possible, but...

This morning she's bringing me brunch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

While reading Lon's recent thread on anniversaries, I realized that I have one coming up soon. 

I'm one month out from my DDay anniversary. 

Wow, how things have changed. It dragged on and flew by at the same time. 

Looking at my life now vs right before DDay - I love it!


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> While reading Lon's recent thread on anniversaries, I realized that I have one coming up soon.
> 
> I'm one month out from my DDay anniversary.
> 
> Wow, how things have changed. It dragged on and flew by at the same time.
> 
> Looking at my life now vs right before DDay - I love it!


Hmmm...yeah...come to think of it..im about 3 weeks away from mine too.


----------



## zillard

I talked with the child psych before D7s session today. She told me that clinically she sees nothing to work on at this time. She praised the previous psych for doing a great job helping D understand and identify her emotions.

She thinks D7 has graduated for now and continuing our frequent visits would be taking advantage of me. 

I told her I was pleased to hear that but I'm scared to pull her out. 

She reassured me that if I choose that, she can always come back as needed. She explained that as kids grow they understand things like divorce in different ways at different times in their lives. Right now D is thriving and has adjusted beautifully. And she is taking to Tiger great and coming to terms with dad dating (enough to discuss openly with everyone). That doesn't mean things won't resurface, requiring more treatment later.

I told her I need to involve x in the decision as coparent, but next session is tentatively her last for now.

Proud, relieved and scared at the same time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I talked with the child psych before D7s session today. She told me that clinically she sees nothing to work on at this time. She praised the previous psych for doing a great job helping D understand and identify her emotions.
> 
> She thinks D7 has graduated for now and continuing our frequent visits would be taking advantage of me.
> 
> I told her I was pleased to hear that but I'm scared to pull her out.
> 
> She reassured me that if I choose that, she can always come back as needed. She explained that as kids grow they understand things like divorce in different ways at different times in their lives. Right now D is thriving and has adjusted beautifully. And she is taking to Tiger great and coming to terms with dad dating (enough to discuss openly with everyone). That doesn't mean things won't resurface, requiring more treatment later.
> 
> I told her I need to involve x in the decision as coparent, but next session is tentatively her last for now.
> 
> Proud, relieved and scared at the same time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would cut back to 1x/month while you work through this stuff about her prohibiting you and Tiger being affectionate with her around.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I talked with the child psych before D7s session today. She told me that clinically she sees nothing to work on at this time. She praised the previous psych for doing a great job helping D understand and identify her emotions.
> 
> She thinks D7 has graduated for now and continuing our frequent visits would be taking advantage of me.
> 
> I told her I was pleased to hear that but I'm scared to pull her out.
> 
> She reassured me that if I choose that, she can always come back as needed. She explained that as kids grow they understand things like divorce in different ways at different times in their lives. Right now D is thriving and has adjusted beautifully. And she is taking to Tiger great and coming to terms with dad dating (enough to discuss openly with everyone). That doesn't mean things won't resurface, requiring more treatment later.
> 
> I told her I need to involve x in the decision as coparent, but next session is tentatively her last for now.
> 
> Proud, relieved and scared at the same time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How are your IC sessions going?

Do you feel some trepidation moving forward with your relationship with T? At least insofar as involving D7?

Is there some pressure in maintaining this relationship once D7 is fully aware and participating in your daily life as a couple?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> How are your IC sessions going?


They aren't. I have been substituting with the meditation group. While it is helpful, thought provoking, calming, etc, it is not the same and I've basically been putting IC off. 



Ceegee said:


> Do you feel some trepidation moving forward with your relationship with T? At least insofar as involving D7?


Yes. Both. 

Of course. I think that's natural. It is not greater than my enjoyment though - in being with T and seeing her with D7.



Ceegee said:


> Is there some pressure in maintaining this relationship once D7 is fully aware and participating in your daily life as a couple?


Yes there is and will be, as those decisions affect her too. That is why taking it slow is recommended. 

When Tiger said she had no desire to live with me currently it shocked a bit at first. Part of me wants her to be clamoring for that, all over it, whether or not I want to. The ego.

But the longer we date as we are, very intimate but living separately, the more I cherish my space and our current arrangement. 

There is the repetitious "don't fvck up your kid" playing in the background. It would be unfortunate for D7 if things advanced and then flipped. Stats point to that as a likely outcome. 

But just as I've told others here - look at what you've just been through. No matter how it goes down you'll be fine. You can handle it. 

I think D7 can too. Perhaps better than me. What's that they say about risk and reward?


----------



## zillard

Last week was eventful. 

My mother stopped by the house while I was cooking. I was getting ready to have Tiger and her daughter over for dinner with D7. 

Ma - I thought you don't do that.

Z - This is the first time.

Ma - Oh. Well you can do whatever you want. 

Z - I know.

Dinner went great and we all had an awesome time playing in D7s new room afterward. 

I chose to advance things and let T know I felt it was time for her and D7 to do Girl Day. She agreed. 

So Saturday they went out and spent the afternoon together (after all of us went to a trampoline park with Tiger's mom, daughter and niece). I gave Tiger some money and they went shopping for winter accessories, then food, park, arcade, etc. 

D was absolutely thrilled. They had a great time together. 

When they returned they were talking about all of us going out to do something that night too. I shot it down - simply didn't feel like it. 

Old Z would have made some lame excuse and offered up an unsolicited promise to make up for the imaginary sin of saying no. 

Instead I just told Tiger I didn't want to go. 

Later that night on our phone call I couldn't have steered the conversation away from sex had I tried. 

She asked to meet up for breakfast the next morning. We all went and had a great time. She expressed interest in hanging out later that day. I turned her down again. My brother was stopping by later to see the new house and I was itching to get back to my latest project in the garage. 

I'm building an 8x4 ft L-shaped oak desk for my home office. From scratch with no experience other than high school shop class. I'm loving the challenge and it's turning out great! 

When I'm done I need to build a headboard. I need something to tie Tiger to - and I told her so. :FIREdevil:


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Last week was eventful.
> 
> My mother stopped by the house while I was cooking. I was getting ready to have Tiger and her daughter over for dinner with D7.
> 
> Ma - I thought you don't do that.
> 
> Z - This is the first time.
> 
> Ma - Oh. Well you can do whatever you want.
> 
> Z - I know.
> 
> Dinner went great and we all had an awesome time playing in D7s new room afterward.
> 
> I chose to advance things and let T know I felt it was time for her and D7 to do Girl Day. She agreed.
> 
> So Saturday they went out and spent the afternoon together (after all of us went to a trampoline park with Tiger's mom, daughter and niece). I gave Tiger some money and they went shopping for winter accessories, then food, park, arcade, etc.
> 
> D was absolutely thrilled. They had a great time together.
> 
> When they returned they were talking about all of us going out to do something that night too. I shot it down - simply didn't feel like it.
> 
> Old Z would have made some lame excuse and offered up an unsolicited promise to make up for the imaginary sin of saying no.
> 
> Instead I just told Tiger I didn't want to go.
> 
> Later that night on our phone call I couldn't have steered the conversation away from sex had I tried.
> 
> She asked to meet up for breakfast the next morning. We all went and had a great time. She expressed interest in hanging out later that day. I turned her down again. My brother was stopping by later to see the new house and I was itching to get back to my latest project in the garage.
> 
> I'm building an 8x4 ft L-shaped oak desk for my home office. From scratch with no experience other than high school shop class. I'm loving the challenge and it's turning out great!
> 
> When I'm done I need to build a headboard. I need something to tie Tiger to - and I told her so. :FIREdevil:


Make sure that headboard's strong enough to hold you too.


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> last week was eventful.
> 
> My mother stopped by the house while i was cooking. I was getting ready to have tiger and her daughter over for dinner with d7.
> 
> Ma - i thought you don't do that.
> 
> Z - this is the first time.
> 
> Ma - oh. Well you can do whatever you want.
> 
> Z - i know.
> 
> Dinner went great and we all had an awesome time playing in d7s new room afterward.
> 
> I chose to advance things and let t know i felt it was time for her and d7 to do girl day. She agreed.
> 
> So saturday they went out and spent the afternoon together (after all of us went to a trampoline park with tiger's mom, daughter and niece). I gave tiger some money and they went shopping for winter accessories, then food, park, arcade, etc.
> 
> D was absolutely thrilled. They had a great time together.
> 
> When they returned they were talking about all of us going out to do something that night too. I shot it down - simply didn't feel like it.
> 
> Old z would have made some lame excuse and offered up an unsolicited promise to make up for the imaginary sin of saying no.
> 
> Instead i just told tiger i didn't want to go.
> 
> Later that night on our phone call i couldn't have steered the conversation away from sex had i tried.
> 
> She asked to meet up for breakfast the next morning. We all went and had a great time. She expressed interest in hanging out later that day. I turned her down again. My brother was stopping by later to see the new house and i was itching to get back to my latest project in the garage.
> 
> I'm building an 8x4 ft l-shaped oak desk for my home office. From scratch with no experience other than high school shop class. I'm loving the challenge and it's turning out great!
> 
> When i'm done i need to build a headboard. I need something to tie tiger to - and i told her so. :firedevil:



 rRAAAAWWRR!


----------



## zillard

Got a text from X at 945p. I also noticed a voicemail from her on the home phone but haven't listened. 

X - What number should I use to talk to D7 if her phone is no longer functional? 

We missed her call. Mondays is meditation night so D was with my mom and sis. D7s phone is month to month. I stopped paying for it. The reception on it is terrible at the new house. Now that she is back in school we are out and about a lot less. So they have been talking on my land line nightly instead. Two nights ago I explained this to X. 

X - well it doesn't make sense to pay for it if it doesn't work.

The phone was very important before. A transitional item for D during the moves. I feel that it is no longer needed. At least not at this time.

I almost responded to Xs text but stopped myself. Earlier this spring I set a boundary regarding texts/calls after 8pm. She has been very good about it for months. So good I nearly forgot I had established it. 

It would certainly be easy to shoot off a quick text. I'm not upset about hers (just mildly irritating) BUT if I cannot be consistent with my boundaries, how can I expect anyone else to be? 

I will instead use email tomorrow to provide the home number again, and inform her that D7 is not available at that time on Mondays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> When I'm done I need to build a headboard. I need something to tie Tiger to - and I told her so. :FIREdevil:


So, you have this...I am gonna say what I think and see what happens attitude too huh? I SO do. Very similiar experience lately myself. It is so liberating.


----------



## zillard

Tomorrow I'm off on another backpacking trip. It has been snowing in the foothills for a couple days and I'll be driving 45 minutes into the mountains, then packing in further to a small mountain lake. It's no 50,000 feet, but close to 10. 

My family thinks I'm crazy and will freeze. I'm really excited. I haven't been cold weather camping in... 12 years or so.

The best part - it was Tiger's idea. 

She is so bad @ss.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Tomorrow I'm off on another backpacking trip. It has been snowing in the foothills for a couple days and I'll be driving 45 minutes into the mountains, then packing in further to a small mountain lake. It's no 50,000 feet, but close to 10.
> 
> My family thinks I'm crazy and will freeze. I'm really excited. I haven't been cold weather camping in... 12 years or so.
> 
> The best part - it was Tiger's idea.
> 
> She is so bad @ss.


Whatever will you do to keep warm?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Whatever will you do to keep warm?


Ha. 

Dad - Are you going alone or taking a sleeping bag warmer?


----------



## zillard

The backpacking trip was a blast. The scenery was gorgeous. 

We didn't go far but it still kicked my butt. Packed in about 4 miles and about 1000 feet. Then descended some steep switchbacks into a little valley with a lake, surrounded on one side by limestone cliffs connecting two mountains. 

There wasn't much snow, but it was cold. The mud on the switchbacks was already frozen before sundown. 

In the morning we set up a hammock and relaxed right next to the nearly frozen over lake. 

The hike back up the switchbacks was brutal carrying the 60lb pack. Tiger later told me she came close to tears, but she kept on plugging away. A trooper, that one. 

Tuesday D7 had her last IC session for the time being. The child psych is very impressed with her, her knowledge of emotions, and her willingness to talk about them (especially with me). 

We had daddy daughter dinner afterward. 

Today we had parent teacher conferences. The first without her mother. She is excelling and will be given higher level homework to keep her challenged. Her interaction in class and with other students is great and she is very involved. Teacher told me only has had trouble getting her to focus and participate once, and that was closer to the start of the school year. That was when we were in residential limbo so it makes sense. 

I took her to the book fair and picked up some new books. Now we're getting ready to host dinner with T and TD3.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> The backpacking trip was a blast. The scenery was gorgeous.
> 
> We didn't go far but it still kicked my butt. Packed in about 4 miles and about 1000 feet. Then descended some steep switchbacks into a little valley with a lake, surrounded on one side by limestone cliffs connecting two mountains.
> 
> There wasn't much snow, but it was cold. The mud on the switchbacks was already frozen before sundown.
> 
> In the morning we set up a hammock and relaxed right next to the nearly frozen over lake.
> 
> The hike back up the switchbacks was brutal carrying the 60lb pack. Tiger later told me she came close to tears, but she kept on plugging away. A trooper, that one.
> 
> Tuesday D7 had her last IC session for the time being. The child psych is very impressed with her, her knowledge of emotions, and her willingness to talk about them (especially with me).
> 
> We had daddy daughter dinner afterward.
> 
> Today we had parent teacher conferences. The first without her mother. She is excelling and will be given higher level homework to keep her challenged. Her interaction in class and with other students is great and she is very involved. Teacher told me only has had trouble getting her to focus and participate once, and that was closer to the start of the school year. That was when we were in residential limbo so it makes sense.
> 
> I took her to the book fair and picked up some new books. Now we're getting ready to host dinner with T and TD3.


Difficult to like this enough.

There are some people that simply do not need anything other than an occasional "bravo"


----------



## Ceegee

I'll second that and add a bravo to T and D7 as well.


----------



## Lifescript

Glad to hear things are going really well Z. Your story should be read by all BS here. There's light at the end of the tunnel. You've done great. Happy for you.


----------



## zillard




----------



## ThreeStrikes

I think I can see a Bigfoot...over across the water....


----------



## Pbartender

ThreeStrikes said:


> I think I can see a Bigfoot...over across the water....


And there's the Loch Ness Monster in the water...


----------



## arbitrator

ThreeStrikes said:


> I think I can see a Bigfoot...over across the water....


*No, I don't really think that's Bigfoot! In actuality, that's my skanky XW seeing herself a potential new boyfriend reposing on a rock, that she can swim over to and try to shag!*


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Maybe the Loch Ness Monster will have her for breakfast.....


----------



## 06Daddio08

Good to hear Z!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

ThreeStrikes said:


> Maybe the Loch Ness Monster will have her for breakfast.....


*Give her a break! Even Nessie has scruples!*


----------



## zillard

Thanks guys!

I took another step this weekend. 

D7 had a sleepover with T and TD3. I took her over to T's and we spent some time putting together a large puzzle together before I took off. 

T was thinking I would take the chance to drive away about an hour for guys night. However, I wasn't itching for a drunken night out waking on an uncomfortable couch with a sh!tty drive home. Instead I stayed home and sipped on some nice whiskey while I set up D7's new bookshelves and hung familiar art in her room. 

I also got my office set up now that I've completed building my new desk. It fits perfectly in the room and has plenty of space for my 3 monitors, towers, scanner, multiple printers, bank of hard drives, paper drawers and room left for books. 

I woke early and got some cleaning done, then vegged for a bit, had a nap and met the girls for brunch. Then we came back to my house and played around for a few hours. 

Dinner, homework and bedtime with D7. A little TAM and back to the garage for a new project. 

I eagerly await Halloween but am already feeling thankful.


----------



## zillard

Last night was date night for T and I. 

Her X (baby daddy) was texting her non-stop at first. Fishing for praise over and over for paying the child's doctor bill. She didn't want to respond and give him the satisfaction. 

We talked about it a bit. Should an X get praise for fulfilling an obligation? An attaboy for one small thing when all the rest are neglected? 

I mentioned rewarding good behavior, just as one would with a child. Not to the level of praise, but sometimes a simple 'thank you' goes a long way in the spirit of co-parenting. 

As is typical, the universe chooses these moments to throw curve balls. Right then I received a text from my X. One that I haven't seen before. 

X - I'm sorry I split our family up. I regret it every day. Hopefully one day you can forgive me. I was an azzhole. I'm sorry.

I showed T. She had been wondering when that one would come. 

We made a 'no phones on date night' rule, put them away, and had an excellent evening.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

That sounds like a good rule (no phones on date night). Did you respond? I too got a text like that a few months ago. I replied back the next day - "Thank you. I've already forgiven and am moving on with my life. You should too". 

Should I have sent that? Who knows. It was how I felt and it was necessary for me to move out of the anger and resentment phase and be happy with myself again. I want her mom to move on and rebuild her life, as it will be better for my D7 to have a "normal" healthy mom again, though I'm not sure that will ever happen and I will continue to do everything I need to do to raise my daughter with or without a coparent.


----------



## zillard

I didn't respond. 

I had a few different initial reactions:

"I already have" - but that is not completely accurate. "I already am" is more truthful, as it is a process not a line item.

"Too little way too f'n late" - there was a time when I was hoping for that text. I left that behind me in Arizona.


----------



## Garry2012

I have said it before and Ill say it again, im envious you got that statement from her. When/if i ever get that, I would buy a round for all my supporters on here (have to be virtual lol). 

Its great that you can stop yourself before you make the statements that the year-ago Z would have made. I am just now kinda getting into that. Easier and better for us to just bite our tongues and move on...of course...having a Tiger there helps lol.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I didn't respond.
> 
> I had a few different initial reactions:
> 
> "I already have" - but that is not completely accurate. "I already am" is more truthful, as it is a process not a line item.
> 
> "Too little way too f'n late" - there was a time when I was hoping for that text. I left that behind me in Arizona.


So, she realizes her "plan" didn't work out.

Who could have predicted it?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> So, she realizes her "plan" didn't work out.
> 
> Who could have predicted it?


All too often that realization comes too late. 

I gave her more chances than I probably should have. She wasn't in a place to see things clearly, which is unfortunate for her and D7. 

Of course the "what ifs" try to surface. Had I given her more time...etc. blah blah. But if I am to look at those I need to look at them all. 

Her realization may never have happened had I not moved on. And the life I have now would not exist. 

For me, this text changes nothing. 

For her, I hope it does. I'd like her to find happiness.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> All too often that realization comes too late.
> 
> I gave her more chances than I probably should have. She wasn't in a place to see things clearly, which is unfortunate for her and D7.
> 
> Of course the "what ifs" try to surface. Had I given her more time...etc. blah blah. But if I am to look at those I need to look at them all.
> 
> Her realization may never have happened had I not moved on. And the life I have now would not exist.
> 
> For me, this text changes nothing.
> 
> For her, I hope it does. I'd like her to find happiness.


I realize the impact of such correspondence.

What I have found is that those bursts of clarity are not followed by linear solid progress.

In fact, it can be a temporary rending of garments with no lasting impact.

Notice the steadfast resistance to any realization like this while going through the counseling.

All about survival.

Now, survival is threatened in some way... and there is regret.

If there was any pressure - even subtle pressure - for the realization, defense mechanisms would likely kick in and quash it.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Conrad said:


> I realize the impact of such correspondence.
> 
> What I have found is that those bursts of clarity are not followed by linear solid progress.
> 
> In fact, it can be a temporary rending of garments with no lasting impact.
> 
> Notice the steadfast resistance to any realization like this while going through the counseling.
> 
> All about survival.
> 
> Now, survival is threatened in some way... and there is regret.
> 
> If there was any pressure - even subtle pressure - for the realization, defense mechanisms would likely kick in and quash it.


:iagree:


----------



## ThreeStrikes

She probably got dumped by OM.


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> She probably got dumped by OM.


"Something" happened.


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> "Something" happened.


My money's on Ringo lending his truck to another.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> "Something" happened.


Yes, I believe this. 

She missed her call with D7 the same night. 

It's not about me. Nor is it about D7. 



Conrad said:


> survival is threatened in some way





Conrad said:


> bursts of clarity are not followed by linear solid progress


While her owning the split is new, this type of thing has happened before:

X - Conflict scares the **** out of me even though I'm the first to start a fight. I go into survival mode far sooner than a normal person would in situations I'm in.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes, I believe this.
> 
> She missed her call with D7 the same night.
> 
> It's not about me. Nor is it about D7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While her owning the split is new, this type of thing has happened before:
> 
> X - Conflict scares the **** out of me even though I'm the first to start a fight. I go into survival mode far sooner than a normal person would in situations I'm in.


I've been told that she never wants to be my adversary.

Ok...

I suppress the urge to ask why she behaves the way she does.

It would seem easier to self-regulate the emotional outbursts.

Nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Conrad said:


> I've been told that she never wants to be my adversary.
> 
> Ok...
> 
> I suppress the urge to ask why she behaves the way she does.
> 
> It would seem easier to self-regulate the emotional outbursts.
> 
> Nothing could be further from the truth.


*Full of sh!t*

That's my diagnosis for persons who say one thing, but act to the contrary.

I'm fairly certain there is no cure....

(I guess it's too late to add to ICD 10)


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> *Full of sh!t*
> 
> That's my diagnosis for persons who say one thing, but act to the contrary.
> 
> I'm fairly certain there is no cure....
> 
> (I guess it's too late to add to ICD 10)


When a person's emotions inform them that they are fighting for survival, all bets are off.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Conrad said:


> When a person's emotions inform them that they are fighting for survival, all bets are off.


I'm putting my $ on the rationalization hamster


----------



## TheGoodGuy

ThreeStrikes said:


> I'm putting my $ on the rationalization hamster


Yup, and the victim chair
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Now that October is coming to a close, I am worried about November. 

D7 and X talk almost daily about D going to X's house for Thanksgiving. 

However I have yet to receive any official plans/travel arrangements from X. 

T asked if I would foot the bill if X drops the ball - for D's sake. 

I told her that's a very difficult decision, hard either way, but ultimately the answer is no. What's better for D in the short term could be much worse long term. I can't be the fixer. I must avoid setting a bad precedent for these interstate holiday exchanges.

X will blatantly let D down eventually (again), and I must step back and let it happen. But it is very difficult. I can forsee that when it happens I will have some anger to work through. 

I know worrying about it accomplishes nothing. I need to live in the present. Yet writing it out helps me prepare emotionally. It's easier when it isn't a shock.


----------



## BWBill

X is making the promises. She has to be the one to keep them.


----------



## Mavash.

You've got this Z. No matter how hard it is you know what needs to be done and you will do it because it's the right thing to do.


----------



## Lifescript

As hard as it is your thinking is correct. No fixing. It would set a bad precedent.


----------



## 06Daddio08

It's unfortunate that you may have to once again shoulder the weight of your daughters disappointment thanks to the ex.

These are hard choices indeed.


----------



## zillard

I sent off a text. The ball is in her court, but I think a little prodding is ok. I'm not ok with leaving the details until the last minute. I have a holiday to plan too. 

Z - Hi. With Thanksgiving coming up I'm wondering if you've made travel arrangements. Please let me know. Thanks.


----------



## 06Daddio08

You offered a welcoming opening to discuss it, nothing wrong with that. What she doesn't know though, is that you're ready to be firm in your resolve if she tries anything.


----------



## zillard

How we word things is so important - and often overlooked. 

So when's her flight? 
Are you buying tickets or not? 
What the hell is going on with Thnkgvng?

... would be opening the door to immediate resistance/conflict as they reek of blame.

What are *we* doing about travel?
Prices are going up rapidly.
She has N days off school, does she need more?

... would reinforce fixer status and provide opportunity for her to take advantage.

^ something that was not obvious to me for quite some time - people can only take advantage if you provide an opportunity.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> How we word things is so important - and often overlooked.
> 
> So when's her flight?
> Are you buying tickets or not?
> What the hell is going on with Thnkgvng?
> 
> ... would be opening the door to immediate resistance/conflict as they reek of blame.
> 
> What are *we* doing about travel?
> Prices are going up rapidly.
> She has N days off school, does she need more?
> 
> ... would reinforce fixer status and provide opportunity for her to take advantage.
> 
> ^ something that was not obvious to me for quite some time - people can only take advantage if you provide an opportunity.


Well put. That is why I try to suggest as much as possible when co-parenting to know what you're okay with before going "in".

Then give those options out and follow it up by asking if they're okay with it as well. This way, it's not intrusive to them as you're requesting their input, it's not fixing from you and it gives you control of the conversation.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> I sent off a text. The ball is in her court, but I think a little prodding is ok. I'm not ok with leaving the details until the last minute. I have a holiday to plan too.
> 
> Z - Hi. With Thanksgiving coming up I'm wondering if you've made travel arrangements. Please let me know. Thanks.


Tough call. I suppose I would ask myself what is in the best interest of D. I dont think doing it once or twice sets a precedent as long as you make sure you clarify that this is not going to happen every time, and is ONLY for D.


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> Tough call. I suppose I would ask myself what is in the best interest of D. I dont think doing it once or twice sets a precedent as long as you make sure you clarify that this is not going to happen every time, and is ONLY for D.


Tricky thing is - precedent has already been set. I am/was a fixer. 

Every time I fix, my actions clarify everything, regardless of what I declare while doing so. 

I've had to ask myself what is worse for D?

Being disappointed about missing time with her mother (losing trust in a beloved parent) or later finding out that I perpetuated an illusion for years (losing trust in both).


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Tricky thing is - precedent has already been set. I am/was a fixer.
> 
> Every time I fix, my actions clarify everything, regardless of what I declare while doing so.
> 
> I've had to ask myself what is worse for D?
> 
> Being disappointed about missing time with her mother (losing trust in a beloved parent) or later finding out that I perpetuated an illusion for years (losing trust in both).


Let people experience the consequences of their choices.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Tricky thing is - precedent has already been set. I am/was a fixer.
> 
> Every time I fix, my actions clarify everything, regardless of what I declare while doing so.
> 
> I've had to ask myself what is worse for D?
> 
> Being disappointed about missing time with her mother (losing trust in a beloved parent) or later finding out that I perpetuated an illusion for years (losing trust in both).


No doubt, and as a perpetuated fixer.

Your not "rescuing" her or "enabling her" will be seen as you being the pretentious villain she always accused you of. So you would go back to being the enabler.


----------



## Ceegee

hope4family said:


> No doubt, and as a perpetuated fixer.
> 
> Your not "rescuing" her or "enabling her" will be seen as you being the pretentious villain she always accused you of. So you would go back to being the enabler.


I think she's past that now. 

She may be waiting to see if Z steps in but don't think she's in persecutor mode anymore. 

As usual, Z, all angles covered. Ho hum.


----------



## Garry2012

I have learned (through TAM) I am a fixer and rescuer. I am playing the devils advocate because i wrestle with these scenerios as well. I agree dont fix it for X, but if it can improve your relationship with D (not sure this qualifies), and be good for D, then maybe something to consider. It may perpetuate while D is young, but even a young kid will begin to figure out that you are doing it for them...not to fix X, or perpetuate anything.


----------



## zillard

Definitely not easy. 

I would actually like D to spend the holiday with her mother. It might sound bad but it would be very nice to have some time off so I can vaca with Tiger. A good change of pace from our quick, infrequent over-nighters.

I'm not looking for her to fail so I can keep D all to myself (though the inner critic sometimes disagrees), but unfortunately I've learned to expect it.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Garry2012 said:


> I have learned (through TAM) I am a fixer and rescuer. I am playing the devils advocate because i wrestle with these scenerios as well. I agree dont fix it for X, but if it can improve your relationship with D (not sure this qualifies), and be good for D, then maybe something to consider. It may perpetuate while D is young, but even a young kid will begin to figure out that you are doing it for them...not to fix X, or perpetuate anything.


We cannot control the other parent and unless there is physical or moral harm being done, we should allow them to grow whatever relationship they please with their children.

Even if that means they constantly let them down.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Definitely not easy.
> 
> I would actually like D to spend the holiday with her mother. It might sound bad but it would be very nice to have some time off so I can vaca with Tiger. A good change of pace from our quick, infrequent over-nighters.
> 
> I'm not looking for her to fail so I can keep D all to myself (though the inner critic sometimes disagrees), but unfortunately I've learned to expect it.


LOL

Maybe a cameo from the ole' fixer is in order?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> LOL
> 
> Maybe a cameo from the ole' fixer is in order?


Ha. Very tempting. 

...like most bad choices.

As far as Tiger goes, she admitted to a fitness test today. She has noticed that we have been doing fewer things together with our children. She also had the perception that when we do, it is always her idea. (I see it differently)

So she purposefully stopped initiating... to see if I would. Rather than simply telling me that she wants to do more together. 

Her mother basically told her that men are blockheads and don't pick up on clues, so just say something. 

I think it is all pretty silly (but not, as it wasn't to her). I have noticed the same thing. But I know why it is happening. D is back in school. It is no longer summer. When you don't have a child in school it's probably easy to lose sight of that. 

Z - Your mother is right. We have thick heads and sometimes need a 2x4. If something is bothering you, talk about it. You aren't going to scare me away by bringing something up. And if something does scare me away... it probably should. 

T - Fair enough.


----------



## Garry2012

So what exactly is a fitness test? I am giving one now myself...but I'm not 100% sure of the definition. Checking to see if on the same oage essentially?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Garry2012 said:


> So what exactly is a fitness test? I am giving one now myself...but I'm not 100% sure of the definition. Checking to see if on the same oage essentially?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some Common Fitness Tests… And What Isn’t A Fitness Test | Married Man Sex Life

She noticed a change and perceived it as me pulling away, becoming less interested, etc. 

She then decides to pull away a little herself in order to test her perception, and my interest. 

When that doesn't work, she then brings it up - likely looking for validation/apology/reinforced commitment.

She didn't get exactly what she wanted. But respect increases and therefore attraction. That night we had an amazing date!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Some Common Fitness Tests… And What Isn’t A Fitness Test | Married Man Sex Life
> 
> She noticed a change and perceived it as me pulling away, becoming less interested, etc.
> 
> She then decides to pull away a little herself in order to test her perception, and my interest.
> 
> When that doesn't work, she then brings it up - likely looking for validation/apology/reinforced commitment.
> 
> She didn't get exactly what she wanted. But respect increases and therefore attraction. That night we had an amazing date!


Passing them keeps the spark alive.

Passion comes from controlled friction.


----------



## Conrad

Garry2012 said:


> So what exactly is a fitness test? I am giving one now myself...but I'm not 100% sure of the definition. Checking to see if on the same oage essentially?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Passing them keeps the spark alive.
> 
> Passion comes from controlled friction.


"And if something does scare me away... it probably should."

Old Z never would have said this ^. 

He would've stopped with 'you can't scare me away'. 

Sweet? Gross.


----------



## ReGroup

zillard said:


> Some Common Fitness Tests… And What Isn’t A Fitness Test | Married Man Sex Life
> 
> She noticed a change and perceived it as me pulling away, becoming less interested, etc.
> 
> She then decides to pull away a little herself in order to test her perception, and my interest.
> 
> When that doesn't work, she then brings it up - likely looking for validation/apology/reinforced commitment.
> 
> She didn't get exactly what she wanted. But respect increases and therefore attraction. That night we had an amazing date!


Exceptional. 

She doesn't stand a chance.

It's like manipulating the game in your favor.

Some girl I am seeing causally tried to pull a stunt this past Friday but I held firm to a decision I had made.

She says, "this is not working out"... I say, "ok". 

Last night guess who is texting me at 2am, asking me to come over.

God bless The Fitness Test Thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

So far no response from X re: travel plans for Thanksgiving. 

Standard pattern repeats after I do/say anything that upsets X. 2 nights with no calls to D7. 

On the 3rd night she called. Before hanging up D7 asks her "Do you want to talk to Dad about anything?" - No.

I have not spoken to D about the lack of plans, but she is no dummy. Had a chat with D about that. It is not her job to get mom and dad to talk. Nightly phone calls are for her to talk to mom. If mom and dad need to talk, that is separate.


----------



## zillard

This morning I was getting D7 ready for school. 

In a good mood, I was belting out "Hey Jude", despite D7's protests and pleas for me to stop singing. 

I get to "Don't you know it is a fool, who plays it cool" and suddenly D7 chimes in:

"Don't you know that's YOUUUU, Dad?"

SMH. 

Little sh!t.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> This morning I was getting D7 ready for school.
> 
> In a good mood, I was belting out "Hey Jude", despite D7's protests and pleas for me to stop singing.
> 
> I get to "Don't you know it is a fool, who plays it cool" and suddenly D7 chimes in:
> 
> "Don't you know that's YOUUUU, Dad?"
> 
> SMH.
> 
> Little sh!t.


Glad she is seeing you happy. That's important.


----------



## Garry2012

Good to see her in good spirits too. Despite all she has gone through.


----------



## zillard

I finally got a response from X about Thanksgiving travel plans... 2 weeks before her scheduled time. 

D7 has been talking with her mom nightly about how excited she is to go there and see her mom's place for turkey day. And X has been talking as if it's set in stone, despite the lack of travel plans. 



> Sorry about the delay with the travel arrangements, truth be told I was racking my brain trying to figure out how to pay for the whole thing. The job search has not gone well here, but luckily I have an interview tomorrow. Hopefully that works out.
> 
> I cannot swing the entire cost of flying D7 here and back. I have about $500 to spend, and that's cutting things extremely close. Round trip for just myself will be at least $300. I see two options:
> 
> 1. I fly to UT for a few days to see D7
> 
> 2. We split the cost for her to come here
> I would love to have her here, but I completely understand if you are unwilling to contribute to the travel costs.
> 
> Let me know what you think. I'm sorry about this. I would have said something sooner, but between the job situation and my anxiety over your possible response, I wussed out.


I am not surprised, but...

It is irritating how presumptuous and arrogant she is being by asking me to pay. She pays no child support, no health insurance, no medical, nothing. 

It is amazing how self centered she continues to be. It's still all about her needs and not about D7. 

It is infuriating that she knew she couldn't afford it yet led D7 on, likely hoping that I would then feel obligated to save D7. 

And it is incredibly manipulative of her to insinuate at the end that her lack of action is due to my potentially negative reaction. 

I need to carefully craft a response. So far it is looking like this:

Come see D7 then. I'd appreciate it if you tell her soon.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I am not surprised, but...
> 
> It is irritating how presumptuous and arrogant she is being by asking me to pay. She pays no child support, no health insurance, no medical, nothing.
> 
> It is amazing how self centered she continues to be. It's still all about her needs and not about D7.
> 
> It is infuriating that she knew she couldn't afford it yet led D7 on, likely hoping that I would then feel obligated to save D7.
> 
> And it is incredibly manipulative of her to insinuate at the end that her lack of action is due to my potentially negative reaction.


All so familiar.



zillard said:


> I need to carefully craft a response. So far it is looking like this:
> 
> Come see D7 then. I'd appreciate it if you tell her soon.


Careful... I may be extra-sensitive to it, but from my point of view that's still skirting awfully close to fixer-rescuer territory by dint of making the decision for her (which is, at the root, what she wants you to do... take responsibility for making the decision, thereby getting her out of the mess). You might consider leaving the decision and responsibility to her...

"I'm sorry the trip won't work out as originally planned. Let D7 and me know what you decide as soon as possible."


----------



## Mavash.

Good one PB.

I was thinking the same thing as you but thought it was splitting hairs so I let it go.


----------



## zillard

Hrm. I wonder what happened to the $10,000 she got from the house in June. 

Just kidding. It's probably still in her liver. :absolut:


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Hrm. I wonder what happened to the $10,000 she got from the house in June.
> 
> Just kidding. It's probably still in her liver. :absolut:


Livers don't work that slowly... by now, it's down the toilet.


----------



## zillard

I see trouble ahead for her and Ringo. 

If she's been living on that money instead of mooching off him, that is coming to an end. 

If she's already been mooching, he'll get fed up with it soon. My nephew told me R was already pressuring X to get out of the house and work this summer when he saw them. 

If she does get the job right before Thanksgiving (assuming she really has an interview), she likely won't have much holiday time off. If she misses turkey with D7 due to her job, he and I will be to blame. That won't affect me much, but will do wonders for their relationship. 

Seems he is in the same position I was in 2 years ago. Growing tired of her laziness, self pity and depression. Pressuring her to get a job in an attempt to fix what can't be repaired by being employed. Inevitably leading to "I don't know" and eventually ILYBNILWY.

I almost feel bad for him.

And none of that really matters so I should probably quit analyzing it so much.

I need to breathe deep and come back to today.


----------



## BWBill

You seem to be assuming that she is telling you the truth abount not having money, as opposed to having money but not wanting to spend it on her daughter's trip.


----------



## zillard

BWBill said:


> You seem to be assuming that she is telling you the truth abount not having money, as opposed to having money but not wanting to spend it on her daughter's trip.


Excellent point - taken.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I see trouble ahead for her and Ringo.


Wow Z, you're a regular Nostradamus.


----------



## 06Daddio08

So.... she plans on having thanksgiving in a hotel, if she flies over? Classy.


----------



## zillard

In the divorce papers I am responsible for 25% of travel. 

"Both parties have sufficient income and resources to support the minor child when in their care, and Respondent has agreed to shoulder the majority of costs associated with transportation for Respondent parenting time *in lieu of child support*." 

"Responsibility for travel costs associated with Respondent parenting time shall be divided 25% Petitioner and 75% Respondent."

However, I feel that her failure to provide medical insurance and her failure to care and provide for D7 during the summer months, per the JPA, cancels that out this year. (and then some)

So I wonder if some explaining isn't wise in order to cover my arse.

"I'm sorry the trip won't work out as originally planned. I am not ok with paying for travel in addition to providing support during your scheduled parenting time as well as health insurance coverage. Please let D7 and me know what you decide as soon as possible."

Thoughts? Additional sentence necessary?

I'm looking forward to the first of the year, when my new legal plan through my employer kicks in. On the spot legal advice.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> So.... she plans on having thanksgiving in a hotel, if she flies over? Classy.


Oh no, she'll likely hit up my parents again. And they'll agree. They've already mentioned it to me as a solution. 

I told them I wouldn't be participating and would be spending T-day with my girlfriend instead.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Wow Z, you're a regular Nostradamus.


[email protected] Your avatar is perfect.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I think the shorter the better, unless she tries bringing it up keep that ace in your sleeve.


----------



## vi_bride04

Why do your parents keep enabling her? 

I know they are probably trying to do what is best for D....but come on.


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> Why do your parents keep enabling her?
> 
> I know they are probably trying to do what is best for D....but come on.


Surprised that I became an enabler?

Old dog, new tricks. They understand the new trick, they just aren't going to bother with it. 

Ma - I know this is a little codependent of me, but...


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I see trouble ahead for her and Ringo.
> 
> If she's been living on that money instead of mooching off him, that is coming to an end.
> 
> If she's already been mooching, he'll get fed up with it soon. My nephew told me R was already pressuring X to get out of the house and work this summer when he saw them.
> 
> If she does get the job right before Thanksgiving (assuming she really has an interview), she likely won't have much holiday time off. If she misses turkey with D7 due to her job, he and I will be to blame. That won't affect me much, but will do wonders for their relationship.
> 
> Seems he is in the same position I was in 2 years ago. Growing tired of her laziness, self pity and depression. Pressuring her to get a job in an attempt to fix what can't be repaired by being employed. Inevitably leading to "I don't know" and eventually ILYBNILWY.
> 
> I almost feel bad for him.
> 
> And none of that really matters...


Perhaps, but don't you find that there is a certain... relief? ...that comes from being reminded that you aren't the crazy one. After so many years of being convinced otherwise, it's a difficult notion to internalize.

I can certainly understand your fascination with it. I often find myself doing the same. I don't think there's anything wrong with using instances like these as examples of what went wrong and thereby as reminders to not repeat our past mistakes. But you're right in that once we've done that, we have to let it go and use the momentum of that reminder to move forward.


----------



## BWBill

_..... but I completely understand if you are unwilling to contribute to the travel costs._


I don' think you need the explanation.


----------



## zillard

X - Z, I've been reviewing prices for airfare and there is no way for me to swing the entire cost of flying D7 here for thanksgiving. Is there any way you could cover the cost of getting D7 here? I can get her back home and I will reimburse you as soon as I am able. Please consider this option. 

Z - No. I'm not ok with that. 

Reimburse my arse. Find a loan somewhere else.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> X - Z, I've been reviewing prices for airfare and there is no way for me to swing the entire cost of flying D7 here for thanksgiving. Is there any way you could cover the cost of getting D7 here? I can get her back home and I will reimburse you as soon as I am able. Please consider this option.
> 
> Z - No. I'm not ok with that.
> 
> Reimburse my arse. Find a loan somewhere else.


How can someone without a job pay you back?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> How can someone without a job pay you back?


ding ding ding

+ I wouldn't believe her even if she had a job. Benefit/risk analysis not in her favor.


----------



## Mavash.

My life rule is no loans. Either I GIVE you money, stuff, time or I don't.

There are a few people that their word actually means something.

The rest may mean well but their human frailty gets in the way of doing the right thing.


----------



## zillard

The pattern continues. 

D7 received no bedtime call tonight.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> The pattern continues.
> 
> D7 received no bedtime call tonight.


Sorry to hear that.

Disgusting


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> The pattern continues.
> 
> D7 received no bedtime call tonight.


Why are some people just pieces of shyte?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

We know she isn't working the night shift. 

What a manipulator. And as soon as she didn't get the answer she wanted, she ignores poor D. Good thing she has at least ONE solid parent.


----------



## zillard

Oh boy. 

I was sitting at home with my little princess last night. Tiger was about to come over and watch a movie. And I realized I needed to take care of some business. 

My timing was amazing. There I am, stuck on the throne in the basement bathroom, when I hear the phone ring. The phone screams out, "Call from X". I hear D7 pick up the phone and say hello. 

Immediately after that there is a knock at the door. The dog goes crazy. I'm still stuck in the bathroom while D7 juggles her mom on the phone, the barking dog, and welcoming T into the house. Like a champ.

I finally come upstairs to find the dog quiet, T settled in, and D7 hanging up the phone - everybody is happy. 

Later I learn from T that the phone was on speaker. While the dog was barking D told her ma "Sorry, T just got here". 

And then X proceeded to tell D that there would be no trip to CA for Thanksgiving. If I hadn't been told that, I wouldn't have known. D7's behavior and attitude was quite normal. 

T suspected that D was taking it fine and likely expected it on some level. 

This morning I talked to D7. I asked how her call went to try to get her to open up, without prying too much. She did tell me about what her mom said and that she wouldn't be going. I asked how she felt about that. 

She asked me to come closer and started to whisper. 

D - A little sad but mostly ok. I really wanted the food Mom makes. 

Z - Do you want a hug? (as I leaned in)

D - I want you to brush your teeth! Your breath stinks!

:smthumbup:


----------



## angelpixie

:rofl: :rofl: D7 sure is something special, Z. You're doing a great job. :smthumbup:


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> I was sitting at home with my little princess last night. Tiger was about to come over and watch a movie. And I realized I needed to take care of some business.
> 
> My timing was amazing. There I am, stuck on the throne in the basement bathroom, when I hear the phone ring. The phone screams out, "Call from X". I hear D7 pick up the phone and say hello.
> 
> Immediately after that there is a knock at the door. The dog goes crazy. I'm still stuck in the bathroom while D7 juggles her mom on the phone, the barking dog, and welcoming T into the house. Like a champ.
> 
> I finally come upstairs to find the dog quiet, T settled in, and D7 hanging up the phone - everybody is happy.
> 
> Later I learn from T that the phone was on speaker. While the dog was barking D told her ma "Sorry, T just got here".
> 
> And then X proceeded to tell D that there would be no trip to CA for Thanksgiving. If I hadn't been told that, I wouldn't have known. D7's behavior and attitude was quite normal.
> 
> T suspected that D was taking it fine and likely expected it on some level.
> 
> This morning I talked to D7. I asked how her call went to try to get her to open up, without prying too much. She did tell me about what her mom said and that she wouldn't be going. I asked how she felt about that.
> 
> She asked me to come closer and started to whisper.
> 
> D - A little sad but mostly ok. I really wanted the food Mom makes.
> 
> Z - Do you want a hug? (as I leaned in)
> 
> D - I want you to brush your teeth! Your breath stinks!
> 
> :smthumbup:


Tell X to use some of that money she was saving for the trip to airmail D7 some spaghetti. 

Little girls are the bestest!


----------



## zillard

Sent off a text to X this morning. 

Z - Please let me know if you will be coming to see D7, and if so, what days. 

X - There won't be a visit this year. I can't afford it. I told D7 on friday. 

Z - Ok. It's not her job to relay messages though. 

Hmmm. So what happened to: 


> I have about $500 to spend... Round trip for just myself will be at least $300.


And she wanted me to pay half? If her original statement is true, she *could* fly up and see her daughter. Also, she would *not* be able to cover even half, had I agreed to pay the other 50%. 

...Not unless she expected D7 to fly alone both ways, which I am definitely NOT ok with. 

Now Thanksgiving and then winter break D7 is with me. Leaving the next scheduled time with mom being her birthday in February. 

A quick look at the calendar shows a total of 30 (+/- 1-2) nights this year that D7 was with her mother.


----------



## Ceegee

I betting she's carrying around a mountain of guilt making it very hard to face D7. 

Not excusing her actions by any means but understanding this sheds some light on how she acts. 

However, for D7's sake, I would take an unrepentant ex wife who lacks self awareness over a guilt ridden ex that can't face her children.


----------



## Mavash.

Just a guess....

Black/white thinking.

If it doesn't go the way she wanted she won't do it at all.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> However, for D7's sake, I would take an unrepentant ex wife who lacks self awareness over a guilt ridden ex that can't face her children.


I'm not always so certain of that.

There are days I almost envy Z.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> A quick look at the calendar shows a total of 30 (+/- 1-2) nights this year that D7 was with her mother.


 what mother doesn't want a relationship with her daughter......

So glad you have D7, Z....would hate the damage that woman would do with a more traditional custody agreement


----------



## hope4family

Pbartender said:


> I'm not always so certain of that.
> 
> There are days I almost envy Z.


Almost.


----------



## Ceegee

Pbartender said:


> I'm not always so certain of that.
> 
> There are days I almost envy Z.


I do too but for selfish reasons. 

He has full custody.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> I do too but for selfish reasons.
> 
> He has full custody.


There's more than that, though...

It means that D7 has one parent at 100% practically all the time. Z doesn't have to undo the damage his X does to D7 on a regular basis, and she has far less time to deal that damage.

People like you and I, Ceegee, have half as much time with our kids and we have to spend much of that time repairing instead of building.

Not to mention that all the time and energy spent dealing with the antics of an unaware, unrepentant ex-spouse is time and I energy that I can't spend on the kids, or myself.


----------



## zillard

You do have a point, PB. 

I'm in damage control mode much less often than I would be otherwise. More like preventative maintenance. T mentioned this too the other day: Look at it this way; you don't have to deal with her every week and D7 isn't going anywhere. 

Sure, D is missing out on time with her mom. But I won't be wondering how she's doing... states away... In a house with some dude I know nothing about... with an inattentive protector. 

I'm happy to take a raincheck on that stress. 
I'm happy to spend the holiday with D7. 

But I'm still pissed that X chooses to be a sh!tty mother. 

D7 is taking it in stride. On the surface at least. I can tell it's bugging her though. The last 2 nights in a row she has woken up and crawled into bed with me in the middle of the night. She rarely does that anymore and I rarely allow it. 

Right now it's ok.


----------



## hope4family

In retrospect you have an idea how much your ex agreeing to let you move out of state with your daughter has helped you. 

Years from now, you will also see how it's helped and hurt D7.

If you were in the same state, imagine the circus of covert contracts, broken promises, mystery men, and all those boundary's that your ex would have kept testing almost daily.


----------



## Pbartender

hope4family said:


> In retrospect you have an idea how much your ex agreeing to let you move out of state with your daughter has helped you.
> 
> Years from now, you will also see how it's helped and hurt D7.
> 
> If you were in the same state, imagine the circus of covert contracts, broken promises, mystery men, and all those boundary's that your ex would have kept testing almost daily.


Compare and contrast...

X's plans to spend Thanksgiving with D7 fall through. D7 gets to spend the holiday with you and your family, instead.

At the WWotMW's insistence, D14 and S15 get to spend Thanksgiving at posOM's parents' house. She's given them no choice in the matter.


----------



## zillard

After cooking for hours in preparation for tomorrow, D7 tells me that she really likes Tiger and her 3yo daughter. She says she is thankful for them but still very sad that she can't spend Thanksgiving with her mother as planned. 

I feel the heart melting and want to cry. Due to happiness and sadness at the same time. 

How perfect. Would the good feel like this without the contrast? I'm convinced not.


----------



## Lifescript

Happy Thanksgiving Z. 

T has done a great job at winning D's affection. Hope you all have a great day.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> After cooking for hours in preparation for tomorrow, D7 tells me that she really likes Tiger and her 3yo daughter. She says she is thankful for them but still very sad that she can't spend Thanksgiving with her mother as planned.
> 
> I feel the heart melting and want to cry. Due to happiness and sadness at the same time.
> 
> How perfect. *Would the good feel like this without the contrast? I'm convinced not.*


YES YES YES…..YES!!!

Oh how I wish more people understand this concept.

For those wanting more info read the book The Shadow Effect. It discusses this very thing.

In the past week my 13 year old son has made me cry twice. My heart melted and I felt both happiness and sadness simultaneously. This is what it means to truly live. To feel all of your emotions not just the pleasant ones. 

Peace.


----------



## Mavash.

More clarification….

It was a negative event that made me cry. My son was bullied. Came home with bruises. For those who don't know he's 13, small, smart but emotionally he's 8. He has aspergers. He's incapable (at the moment) of standing up for himself. 

The event has been dealt with.

Thing is most days I don't appreciate the mundaneness of picking him up from school.

Now? I will appreciate and be grateful. I will feel joy that he made it through a day without someone making him cry.

The contrast of what a bad day feels like will make an ordinary day seem well special.


----------



## zillard

I'm in a weird spot. 

Thanksgiving was good. I prepared a bunch of vegan dishes to take to my parents house for the big family dinner. None of them are on any sort of diet at all, much less veganish. I'm lactose intolerant so it always sucks when I can't eat anything but turkey. And now I'm pretty much off meat too. 

So I took spinach and bean stuffed delicata squash, cauliflower basil gravy, cranberry biscotti, and veggie lentil soup w/coconut milk and chipotle. It was barely touched, but I had a plate full of yummy stuff that I could eat. 

I didn't invite Tiger. The weird part - I wasn't exactly sure why. Of course Thanksgiving had come up in conversation beforehand so the opportunity was there, but I didn't. I joked about it a bit but never came out with it. 

I've been trying to step back and understand why. I love her. I want her to be around. But this thanksgiving I had a lot of mixed emotions. It is one year since X and I decided to file and she made our "last meal". 

It is weird for D7 because she was supposed to be with her mom and got let down. 

Perhaps I wanted it as simple as possible for her. And I'd be a liar if I didn't say it was for me too. Perhaps I wanted to take the opportunity to show off a little with my cooking without the assumption that it was due to whichever woman I'm currently with. 

Maybe the holidays are just so personal with my close family and I don't feel she's quite there yet? Immediately I don't think so, but... 

Probably a combination of all of them. Hard for me to make sense of it, much less for her to do so. I did take her food, knowing she wouldn't have had many good options either. She later came by and watched a movie with D7 and I. But it seemed forced. It was different. She left earlier than she needed to. 

Basically it boils down to the fact that the rollercoaster lasts longer than we think it will - which can be surprising. And if it's confusing to us, it must be for others. 

I feel joy and excitement for what I have with T. I miss the good parts of what I had with X at the same time. I'm still thankful for both.


----------



## Mavash.

Z this makes total sense to me.

Why didn't you communicate all this to Tiger?

Healthy women can take being left out if we know it's not about us. 

Tell her what you told us here.

If she's half the woman I think she is she will understand.

Her feelings will still be hurt yes but she will understand.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I'd like to caution you about thinking "*she left earlier than she needed to.*" How exactly are you defining this? From who's viewpoint; hers or yours? From what you've written it seems to be that she left earlier than *you* needed her to, due to the way you are feeling.

I do find it hard to believe that you didn't invite Tiger because you wanted to 'show off' your cooking skills and not have it associated with Tigers assistance. Do you honestly care what others think of your cooking ability, or the fact they may not believe you could actually accomplish such things without her help? I don't.

Although D7 has expressed her positive feelings for Tiger and TD3, I have no doubt that you plan on regulating it as much as possible. She is only 7 after all, bright as a diamond but at the same time she still requires emotional protection and guidance. Children can get serious tunnel vision.

The only thing that really stands out from this, is a possibility that you are questioning whether or not you are moving too fast with her. That you 'have' moved too fast with her after everything that's gone on in not only your life but your daughters as well. If this is the case, step back and ask yourself how you're defining this. Are you using your own personal 'grading system', or the so called 'social standards'.

Keep taking that step back and get back to the basics. Ask yourself the hard questions and listen to the gut feeling you get. Then go from there.

As Mavvie said, talk to Tiger about this as well. Take some time to get it sorted within yourself, then express it.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Did she invite you to her Thanksgiving?


----------



## Mavash.

Z I've been married for 22 years and sometimes you know due to my disorder, triggers, childhood, or whatever else might be going on my head I just don't want to be around him. Sometimes I want to spend time with my kids. Sometimes I just want to be left alone.

My new life motto is to take care of me (and my kids) and I'm kinda over doing things just because it's socially acceptable or because it's expected of me.

If I don't want to do something I don't do it. I make exceptions on a case by case basis.

Holidays are so tough even under the best of circumstances.

My point is again to communicate. I've learned to tell my husband what I want, need and how I feel even if it's not what he wants to hear. He's a grown man and it's not even about him. 

He understands.


----------



## Lifescript

I think there's an underlying reason why you didn't invite her.

Why didn't you have that conversation? 

About what was going to happen for Thanksgiving and were you two going to spend it together. 

I agree that communication is the way to go.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z, forgive me if this has already been said before, but has T met your parents? Your siblings? Did the hesitation to invite her have anything to do with what your family might think about you/her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

T has met my family many times. She's been a friend of me and my brother for years so has been around, just not in that capacity. 

There is some hesitancy due to that still though. My family is very conservative, religious and judgmental and Tiger is covered in tattoos. I think that hesitancy is more on her part though. I'm used to them. I'm convinced T thinks my mother doesn't like her - at least not as my girlfriend. 

Which is true to an extent. My mother could like her fine, but she'll never be as good as a nice church girl. 

When there is the option, T would rather not stop off at my folks house. Some of this surely is that I don't want her to accept an invitation to do so simply out of obligation. 

I suspect that me not inviting her did hurt her feelings a little as Mav said, but I also think she was likely a bit relieved. 

We did talk a bit about it and had a really nice day together yesterday.


----------



## zillard

Another talk with D7 was in order too. 

Last night on her call with X, I overheard a bit. 

D - I really want to see your apartment!

X - I know you do.

D - When can I?

X - Soon I hope. I need to be able to afford it. I don't have a job.

D - Well Dad has a job.

X - Yes he does. 

D - He could pay. 

X - No, I have to

D - Well he could HELP

X - Nope

D - Why not?

X - I don't know. 


Ug. So I sat D down this morning and we had another talk about jobs/roles. Who pays for what is mom and dads job to decide. Not hers. Also, its mom's job to pay some things and dad's job to pay other things.

Difficult to try to get in front of that one while minimizing the chance of her picking sides. I don't want to alienate, but I won't let this be put back on me, either.


----------



## Mavash.

zillard said:


> When there is the option, T would rather not stop off at my folks house. Some of this surely is that I don't want her to accept an invitation to do so simply out of obligation.


Again this happened even in my 22 year marriage and not because of anything I did or didn't do it's because HIS parents aren't fond of outsiders. I think I could be the most perfect woman on the planet and they still would have treated me this way. 

Over the years I came to accept it, limited contact and learned to be cordial even when they weren't nice to me. 

At the same time my husband began to believe my observations of them, began to support ME more than them, limited contact as a result and we worked out a mutually beneficial compromise in regards to his family.

I supported his need to visit them but he also supported my need to avoid toxic people. Win/win. With each trip we shortened the visits until we found our 'sweet spot'.


----------



## Mavash.

Sorry Z. Keep at it with your D. Eventually she will understand.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I do find it hard to believe that you didn't invite Tiger because you wanted to 'show off' your cooking skills and not have it associated with Tigers assistance. Do you honestly care what others think of your cooking ability, or the fact they may not believe you could actually accomplish such things without her help? I don't.


Oh it's there, but there is more to it than that. 

Starts off with middle child syndrome - too big for the kiddy table and too small to hang with the older siblings. Physically I've been away from them all for about a decade, other than alternating holidays. Meanwhile they all stayed really close. 

It's a little weird now trying to find my place in the family again. Not just my place though - D7 and Tiger's too.

Thanksgiving is a huge thing with my family (because it is so large). All the men show up carrying food that their wives prepared followed by the women with kids in tow. 

And yes, more than once people have noticed the changes I've made in my habits, behavior and diet and have vocally attributed them to T. 

On some level I did want to combat that. 

I'm back. I'm different. Everything that happened in the last ten years of my life (good and bad) was not all due to X, and the things happening now are not all due to T. 

I do now think this can be boiled down to me trying to find my place in the family again. Some of that will need to be done without T. And I will also need her for some of it. 

My issue is I avoided really looking at it and hence didn't communicate.


----------



## zillard

Mavash. said:


> Again this happened even in my 22 year marriage and not because of anything I did or didn't do it's because HIS parents aren't fond of outsiders. I think I could be the most perfect woman on the planet and they still would have treated me this way.
> 
> Over the years I came to accept it, limited contact and learned to be cordial even when they weren't nice to me.
> 
> At the same time my husband began to believe my observations of them, began to support ME more than them, limited contact as a result and we worked out a mutually beneficial compromise in regards to his family.
> 
> I supported his need to visit them but he also supported my need to avoid toxic people. Win/win. With each trip we shortened the visits until we found our 'sweet spot'.


I previously took this to an extreme and capitulated to X's discomfort with my family too much. I wanted to be closer to them and she wanted to be 1000s of miles away. Literally. 

So I distanced myself from them at a level preferable to X, but too much for me. 

Off Z goes - in search of the sweet spot.


----------



## zillard

Balance, balance, so much to balance. 

I've noticed my girlfriend is in a bit of a funk. Job/money/car/parent/co-parent stress. You know, the usual stuff that we all experience. 

How I react to it is the challenge. 

The temptation to jump in and fix is strong. The feeling that her stress is somehow a reflection of what I am or am not doing is difficult to combat. Difficult in that it requires frequent self-monitoring and correction. 

I get great satisfaction out of treating her, but I'm aware that she does not feel good about constantly receiving as she is quite independent. She enjoys treating me when she can, but I have a hard time letting her (as I have a hard time receiving). 

She even asked me to refrain from purchasing a xmas gift for her. I told her I could/would not promise that, but I will not go overboard. 

And then as I stress about the holidays and all the job/money/car/parent/co-parent stuff, I question whether my girlfriend is in a funk at all. Perhaps I am projecting and she is the one reacting. 

Reality is likely somewhere in the middle.


----------



## 06Daddio08

The no Xmas gift is rather interesting ...


----------



## hope4family

06Daddio08 said:


> The no Xmas gift is rather interesting ...


They are both single adults with children. She may not be able to afford gifts, and frankly it is unknown if Z can afford anything either. 

It's OK to keep focus on the children during this time of year. I feel personally like Z should buy her a gift just in case. He can always double it over for her birthday.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



hope4family said:


> They are both single adults with children. She may not be able to afford gifts, and frankly it is unknown if Z can afford anything either.
> 
> It's OK to keep focus on the children during this time of year. I feel personally like Z should buy her a gift just in case. He can always double it over for her birthday.


Going straight to nothing is what I'm referring to, without offering up an alternative.


----------



## zillard

Personally, if I receive a real nice gift I go from being flattered to feeling obligated to reciprocate and then feel bad about myself if I did not (or especially if I can not) reciprocate with something of comparable value. 

I'd wager that her request stems from something similar. 

My solution: spend the money on a nice gift for her daughter and do something more thoughtful and sentimental for Tiger (along with some small stocking stuffers).


----------



## hope4family

06Daddio08 said:


> Going straight to nothing is what I'm referring to, without offering up an alternative.


I agree it is odd. 

My siblings and I have a no gift for adults agreement. 

Then again, there are 8 of us. 22 nieces and nephews. Z also comes from a large family, so these kind of arrangements aren't as strange. But, amongst partners or SO, they are common in my mind.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Going straight to nothing is what I'm referring to, without offering up an alternative.


There is also this:

person 1: Why is she upset? She told me not to get her anything.

person 2: Are you an idiot? She doesn't want to tell you what she wants. She wants you to KNOW what she wants.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I agree it is odd.
> 
> My siblings and I have a no gift for adults agreement.
> 
> Then again, there are 8 of us. 22 nieces and nephews. Z also comes from a large family, so these kind of arrangements aren't as strange. But, amongst partners or SO, they are common in my mind.


We put all siblings and their spouses in a hat and draw names.
The siblings take care of their own children. 
All siblings get something or pitch in for mom and dad if they can.


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> There is also this:
> 
> person 1: Why is she upset? She told me not to get her anything.
> 
> person 2: Are you an idiot? She doesn't want to tell you what she wants. She wants you to KNOW what she wants.


Yup.

I don't care if I get a gift for Christmas, I am not materialistic. 

BUT as a woman, there is that underlying excitement of "well I hope he ignores my request to not get a gift and surprises the heck out of me!"

Not necessarily wanting the guy to read my mind to know exactly what I want but something as a surprise would be nice...

Hmmmm...now thinking about this, is that some sort of sh!t test??


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> Hmmmm...now thinking about this, is that some sort of sh!t test??


I believe it is.


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> BUT as a woman, there is that underlying excitement of "well I hope he ignores my request to not get a gift and surprises the heck out of me!"
> 
> Not necessarily wanting the guy to read my mind to know exactly what I want but something as a surprise would be nice...


Yeah, the "want" was in general terms, not specific. I'm sure she wants all sorts of materialistic crap. Who doesn't when they see all these sales. Oh I could use that. That would be super cool. 

I'm sure she'd be thankful to receive something like that. But what she likely "wants" is something (action or object) that is thoughtful and or romantic.


----------



## zillard

Example:

The best present I ever gave my little brother was a tiny little $1 animal shaped candle. 

I found it going through some of my deceased brother's things and remembered that my little brother had given it to him as a gift when little brother was much younger. 

A stupid little candle. He teared up and declared it the best gift of the year. 

I've found that simple thoughtful gifts get a much better response than high dollar items. It's very hard to remember that while at the mall with a credit card during holiday season though.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> I've found that simple thoughtful gifts get a much better response than high dollar items. It's very hard to remember that while at the mall with a credit card during holiday season though.


It's almost as hard to remember that, when you balance your budget only to find that after bills you've got a grand total of $8.20 to spend on groceries and gasoline for the month... before you even begin to think about gifts for the holidays.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> It's almost as hard to remember that, when you balance your budget only to find that after bills you've got a grand total of $8.20 to spend on groceries and gasoline for the month... before you even begin to think about gifts for the holidays.


Oh. Sorry mang. 

You're a clever devil though - I'm sure you'll think of something.

Even though we draw names I usually try to get something small for everyone. Can't this year. 

BUT - if I can finish scanning in these boxes of old family portraits I stole from my folks house I can give everybody a DVD full of memories they forgot about.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I'm sure she'd be thankful to receive something like that. But what she likely "wants" is something (action or object) that is thoughtful and or romantic.


Those are the best gifts and what I want to be surprised with when I say "you don't have to get me anything for xmas"

But yeah ...I'm gonna work on that sh!t test b.s....lol


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> Oh. Sorry mang.
> 
> You're a clever devil though - I'm sure you'll think of something.


I always feel better once I've got a plan... I'll figure something out. I always do.

Sorry for the thread crap. 

I do agree, though... I've always preferred to give a few very well thought out gifts (regardless of what they cost), rather than a big pile of gifts or very expensive gifts. Gift giving has always been about the emotional quality of the gift for me, not the sheer quantity or monetary value of them.


----------



## Pbartender

vi_bride04 said:


> BUT as a woman, there is that underlying excitement of "well I hope he ignores my request to not get a gift and surprises the heck out of me!"
> 
> Not necessarily wanting the guy to read my mind to know exactly what I want but something as a surprise would be nice...
> 
> Hmmmm...now thinking about this, is that some sort of sh!t test??


Yep. It is.

Why not just say, "Yes, a gift would be nice... I don't have anything in particular in mind though, so surprise me this year!"

Which is precisely what you want, and therefore precisely what you should ask for.


----------



## 06Daddio08

vi_bride04 said:


> Those are the best gifts and what I want to be surprised with when I say "you don't have to get me anything for xmas"
> 
> But yeah ...I'm gonna work on that sh!t test b.s....lol





Pbartender said:


> Yep. It is.
> 
> Why not just say, "Yes, a gift would be nice... I don't have anything in particular in mind though, so surprise me this year!"
> 
> Which is precisely what you want, and therefore precisely what you should ask for.


When I was 16 my parents kept telling me I didn't have to get them anything for Christmas. I asked many many times and each time they said "I don't want anything". I had a very good track record of finding them something each year they never asked for but _*I felt they would like*_. On those years though, they did give me ideas of what they could use rather than need.

So, on this particular Christmas, I got them absolutely nothing. I bought my brother something and that was it. They were rather upset and I remember sitting there dumbfounded. If you *tell me* you don't want anything ... then nothing is what you will get.

I'm not going to play games at Christmas, it's hard enough as is to find something good at times, with how busy shopping is and all that jazz. I then wrote them a letter that evening, I'm not to sure what it was now that I think about it, but it made my parents cry (in a happy way).

Damn. Where did that version of me go during the years, I've dug it up meow but I sure could've used him from then until recently. Haha.

Christmas is like many things, it's all personal preference. It depends on how one was brought up, how big the family is, how close the family is .. how well off the family is. When I said it was 'interesting' that she straight up said "don't get me anything", it's because it doesn't sound like the picture of Tiger Zillard has been expressing to us.

She might be having money issues and doesn't want to say so, that's within her right. With that comes all sorts of feels on the matter, but in my opinion the "don't get me a thing" line isn't even a 'test' ... it's just unhealthy communication.

Clearly you're going to get her something, you know the type of person she is and I'm sure you could find something at the dollar store if you really wanted to. Only takes a few bucks to craft something up, and from what I've seen, you're rather crafty.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Pbartender said:


> Yep. It is.
> 
> Why not just say, "Yes, a gift would be nice... I don't have anything in particular in mind though, so surprise me this year!"
> 
> Which is precisely what you want, and therefore precisely what you should ask for.


Yes...I am going to keep "say exactly what you want" in my mind more consciously. 

My parents were like Ups in the whole "we don't want something but yet we do" so I'm sure I picked up some of the same tendencies.

Something more to work on


----------



## zillard

When asked I almost always say, "I don't know - surprise me". 

My friends used to call me Capt Vague. 

X always said I was incredibly difficult to shop for because of it. Or more likely because she was forced to be thoughtful or fail. 

Perhaps her "I don't know" that brought me here was just one big passive aggressive f-you. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

Not to sound all TAM-trite, but what is her love language? What kind of thing does she seem to have the happiest response to? I react a lot like you said you do when you receive a really nice gift. Someone doing acts of love, or doing something small that I can see they put some thought into makes me much happier. 

Also, how does she like to show love? Does she give gifts? If she does, or if she thinks this is what you prefer, that could be stressing her out if she's having money trouble. 

When you think the time is right, it would probably be a good idea to revisit this. You might be able to ease her mind. She might be making assumptions that are stressing her out. Just a thought, Z.


----------



## ReGroup

Couple's Spa Package.
That's my default gift. 

She's stressed? Take her to an all day pampering exhibition.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



ReGroup said:


> Couple's Spa Package.
> That's my default gift.
> 
> She's stressed? Take her to an all day pampering exhibition.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing says thoughtful like "default gift".


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> Not to sound all TAM-trite, but what is her love language? What kind of thing does she seem to have the happiest response to? I react a lot like you said you do when you receive a really nice gift. Someone doing acts of love, or doing something small that I can see they put some thought into makes me much happier.


Good question. She recently picked up that book - I haven't read it yet. Just ordered on amazon this morning. 

She hems and haws over me picking up the tab for things on standard outings like a quick dinner or outing with the kids. But on date night or special occasions she loves to be treated. She responds well when I let her pick up the tab for lunches, coffee, etc. 

I mentioned I've noticed that she doesn't like me covering everything and she responded with "well it's not fair". So I think her wanting to pay more often is due to balance, not a love language.

She really seems to like small surprises like me swinging by her work and dropping off a coffee on a busy day. Or reaching into the backseat and pulling out a hidden rose on a car ride. 

Compliments are hit or miss. She responds better when I compliment her accomplishments or decision rather than her shoes. 



angelpixie said:


> Also, how does she like to show love? Does she give gifts? If she does, or if she thinks this is what you prefer, that could be stressing her out if she's having money trouble.
> 
> When you think the time is right, it would probably be a good idea to revisit this. You might be able to ease her mind. She might be making assumptions that are stressing her out. Just a thought, Z.


She has given me some surprise gifts. She clearly puts the most time into wrapping and presenting them though, with flowers from her backyard, etc. Again she seemed to love my praise of her wrapping skills more than my response to the actual gift though. 

You make a good point. Her "don't buy me anything" could very well be a "let me know that you don't want anything". 

Do I think for a second that she would not get me anything though? Hell no.


----------



## Conrad

Cliff's Notes version of the Love Languages indicates that the spontaneous kindnesses and ways your partner is nice to you reflects what they want done to them.


----------



## zillard

I sent X an update on D7. 

I provided recent medical events and what I've decided to do about them; problem + my solution + let me know if you disagree.

I sent her D7's Xmas list and informed her that I've already purchased the biggest two items. I also threw in a list of things she could use - the staples that X no longer needs to worry about like socks, underwear, etc. 

In order to avoid duplicate gifts I also told her some of the things my family members will be getting for D. 

And then I just couldn't resist. I threw in what Tiger got for her too. I can rationalize that all I want, but it was a jab. 

And it felt good.


----------



## Garry2012

I cant imagine a day when a jab like that would not feel good lol.


----------



## 06Daddio08

That's quite the low blow.


----------



## zillard

She made a choice to barely be involved with her daughter and makes the same choice again every single day. 

D7 has been asking her to send over a dinosaur book that she left at her house before we moved. She's been asking for 2 months - each time receiving a promise that is never fulfilled. 

Tiger chooses to be more involved. 

It's only low due to X's choices. 

I don't feel bad about it - mostly because I know it could be MUCH lower. And even then it would be deserved, IMO. 

But yes, it was a jab. Should I be proud of it, no. But indulging every now and then certainly feels good.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> But yes, it was a jab. Should I be proud of it, no. But indulging every now and then certainly feels good.


Ex and I indulged in some comments early in the weekend as well. It sure felt good on my end, and she actually made me laugh pretty good with her odd perception. Haha.


----------



## Garry2012

zillard said:


> She made a choice to barely be involved with her daughter and makes the same choice again every single day.
> 
> D7 has been asking her to send over a dinosaur book that she left at her house before we moved. She's been asking for 2 months - each time receiving a promise that is never fulfilled.
> 
> Tiger chooses to be more involved.
> 
> It's only low due to X's choices.
> 
> I don't feel bad about it - mostly because I know it could be MUCH lower. And even then it would be deserved, IMO.
> 
> But yes, it was a jab. Should I be proud of it, no. But indulging every now and then certainly feels good.



A jab would be almost sweet from me...cause if i actually said what was in my head...haha...not so nice. lol


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Cliff's Notes version of the Love Languages indicates that the spontaneous kindnesses and ways your partner is nice to you reflects what they want done to them.


Well I found that my primary love language is Quality Time, which makes sense. 

I believe that's high up there for her too. 

Turns out the funk was lingering residuals from Thanksgiving. My honesty about why I didn't invite her didn't sit too well. If the reason had been my family didn't want her there, or food options or something else it would have been fine. But because it was my comfort level that was the issue, she felt we must not be on the same page. 

Because she took it personal. 

My comfort level wasn't all about her and was not a sign of my feelings for her, but she perceived it as such. 

This came up when I invited her and her daughter to my place for Christmas. She was hesitant with her response due to her interpretation of the above. And until I made it clear that the invite was not me going through the motions, but out of a genuine desire to share the holiday with her. 

She didn't discuss this earlier because she was convinced there could be no response from me that would convince her. So how do you pull that off? By not trying to convince, but sharing honestly instead.

Something that helped was me explaining that when I trigger and find myself looking at the past, I am missing the happy little family life delusion. Also that I was with X for 10 years and due to that fact my feelings aren't simply going to disappear. It is a process, not a light switch. 

But I do not want her back. I love the life I have now and I want my quality time to be with T and her daughter. 

Also throw in some humor. 

Z - I always want you around. Well ok, not always. (long silent pause) Sometimes I need to fart.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Well I found that my primary love language is Quality Time, which makes sense.
> 
> I believe that's high up there for her too.
> 
> Turns out the funk was lingering residuals from Thanksgiving. My honesty about why I didn't invite her didn't sit too well. If the reason had been my family didn't want her there, or food options or something else it would have been fine. But because it was my comfort level that was the issue, she felt we must not be on the same page.
> 
> Because she took it personal.
> 
> My comfort level wasn't all about her and was not a sign of my feelings for her, but she perceived it as such.
> 
> This came up when I invited her and her daughter to my place for Christmas. She was hesitant with her response due to her interpretation of the above. And until I made it clear that the invite was not me going through the motions, but out of a genuine desire to share the holiday with her.
> 
> She didn't discuss this earlier because she was convinced there could be no response from me that would convince her. So how do you pull that off? By not trying to convince, but sharing honestly instead.
> 
> Something that helped was me explaining that when I trigger and find myself looking at the past, I am missing the happy little family life delusion. Also that I was with X for 10 years and due to that fact my feelings aren't simply going to disappear. It is a process, not a light switch.
> 
> But I do not want her back. I love the life I have now and I want my quality time to be with T and her daughter.
> 
> Also throw in some humor.
> 
> Z - I always want you around. Well ok, not always. (long silent pause) Sometimes I need to fart.


It will be worth saying at some point (likely when she hurts you) that it's impossible to be a romantic partner with someone without occasionally hurting them. You had your reasons for Thanksgiving. She may not buy them. That's on her.

And, you move forward

BTW... fart humor is always the best


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> It will be worth saying at some point (likely when she hurts you) that it's impossible to be a romantic partner with someone without occasionally hurting them. You had your reasons for Thanksgiving. She may not buy them. That's on her.
> 
> And, you move forward
> 
> BTW... fart humor is always the best


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPIP9KXdmO0


----------



## zillard

Speaking of farts: 

X - Would you be ok with me possibly visiting D7 around xmas? I need to see how much flights costs and all that, but I would like to see her if its financially feasible. 

I'm guessing she felt the jab.


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> BTW... fart humor is always the best


No, no it's not.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> No, no it's not.


Well it's certainly satisfying and passes time.


----------



## vi_bride04

Couldn't find a higher quality clip, but you get the idea

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia5VKJwHd4k


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Speaking of farts:
> 
> X - Would you be ok with me possibly visiting D7 around xmas? I need to see how much flights costs and all that, but I would like to see her if its financially feasible.
> 
> I'm guessing she felt the jab.


Think she will mooch off your parents again?


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Think she will mooch off your parents again?


If she actually flies up, yes.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> If she actually flies up, yes.


Are you okay with that? Imo, it's all sorts of bs to impose on the holidays.


----------



## vi_bride04

06Daddio08 said:


> Are you okay with that? Imo, it's all sorts of bs to impose on the holidays.


But its up to his parents to put their foot down. Z can't do anything about their decision to let her mooch or not.


----------



## Conrad

vi_bride04 said:


> But its up to his parents to put their foot down. Z can't do anything about their decision to let her mooch or not.


The beauty of being centered.

You let other people deal with their own decisions.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



vi_bride04 said:


> But its up to his parents to put their foot down. Z can't do anything about their decision to let her mooch or not.


I see where you're coming from, although for me it's different. It'd make it known I wasn't okay with it, but what they decide to do with that is up to them.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Are you okay with that? Imo, it's all sorts of bs to impose on the holidays.


D7s winter break is almost 2 weeks. 
I won't be taking that much PTO. 
D7 will be with my parents a lot instead of school. 
If X is there I don't have to hang out.
I have my own X-free zone. 
D7 would love it.
I will still do Christmas with D7, T, and TD3.
I could use some kid-free time to stuff T's stocking.

It's really not imposing on me.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> D7s winter break is almost 2 weeks.
> I won't be taking that much PTO.
> D7 will be with my parents a lot instead of school.
> If X is there I don't have to hang out.
> I have my own X-free zone.
> D7 would love it.
> I will still do Christmas with D7, T, and TD3.
> I could use some kid-free time to stuff T's stocking.
> 
> It's really not imposing on me.


Guess you'll see if she can pony up the cash.


----------



## zillard

I went out with my brothers for my Lil bros bday. Meanwhile D went ice skating with T and TD3. I came home to this: 

X- I just booked the flight for Christmas. I will arrive on December 20th at X:20pm, and return on December 26th at X:57pm. 
I didn't book a rental car as I'm terrified of driving in the snow, so we'll have to work out a way to get me to/from the airport.
Let me know if you need any more information.
--
Now T wants to be Xs ride from the airport. 

Oi.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

LOL!


----------



## 06Daddio08

This has the making of an odd odd triangle.


----------



## zillard

I spoke to my parents. X hasn't called them to ask to stay there, though my mother did give her an open invitation last time. 

Ma - So what about Christmas day?

Z - I'm going to do Christmas here (my place) with D, T, & TD3.

Ma - K. Then you'll come over. 

Z - Then I'll drop D off. 

Ma - You have to come. 

Z - I'm not doing Christmas with D and my ex wife at your house. 

Ma - Well that doesn't mean I have to give up my Christmas with you. 

Z - For D7 you will. It would be way too confusing for her. I don't want to get her hopes up.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I'm confused. Is X you or your ex?


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm confused. Is X you or your ex?


wrong key. fixed.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I went out with my brothers for my Lil bros bday. Meanwhile D went ice skating with T and TD3. I came home to this:
> 
> X- I just booked the flight for Christmas. I will arrive on December 20th at X:20pm, and return on December 26th at X:57pm.
> I didn't book a rental car as I'm terrified of driving in the snow, so we'll have to work out a way to get me to/from the airport.
> Let me know if you need any more information.
> --
> Now T wants to be Xs ride from the airport.
> 
> Oi.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If T wants to be her ride from the airport... let her.


----------



## Ceegee

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> I went out with my brothers for my Lil bros bday. Meanwhile D went ice skating with T and TD3. I came home to this:
> 
> X- I just booked the flight for Christmas. I will arrive on December 20th at X:20pm, and return on December 26th at X:57pm.
> I didn't book a rental car as I'm terrified of driving in the snow, so we'll have to work out a way to get me to/from the airport.
> Let me know if you need any more information.
> --
> Now T wants to be Xs ride from the airport.
> 
> Oi.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd tell her,

"I've made reservations with xyz limo sevice for you. They'll take a credit card. D7 is looking forward to seeing you."

She won't ask again.


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> I'd tell her,
> 
> "I've made reservations with xyz limo sevice for you. They'll take a credit card. D7 is looking forward to seeing you."
> 
> She won't ask again.


I'd let her make her own arrangements for transportation.


----------



## Tron

I'd like to be a fly on a wall in T's car. 

VAR anyone?


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> I'd like to be a fly on a wall in T's car.
> 
> VAR anyone?


Hmm. I DO happen to have one.


----------



## zillard

My sisters are close to throwing a fit. As soon as I walked in the door and saw one of them today she charged me, demanding that I be there for Xmas dinner. 

Sis - I want my brother here for Christmas. We all want you to be there, not someone else. 

Z - That's on mom for putting her up. This isn't just me, there are a lot of things to consider. T's comfort level, because going without T would be disrespectful. D's comfort level, obviously. 

More complaining. 

Z - Look, it's just like alternating holidays. I was here for Thanksgiving.


----------



## 06Daddio08

zillard said:


> My sisters are close to throwing a fit. As soon as I walked in the door and saw one of them today she charged me, demanding that I be there for Xmas dinner.
> 
> Sis - I want my brother here for Christmas. We all want you to be there, not someone else.
> 
> Z - That's on mom for putting her up. This isn't just me, there are a lot of things to consider. T's comfort level, because going without T would be disrespectful. D's comfort level, obviously.
> 
> More complaining.
> 
> Z - Look, it's just like alternating holidays. I was here for Thanksgiving.


I feel for you Zillard, even if you're sticking to your boundaries (and guns) I know it's not an easy thing. Especially when it's your family and although I'm sure you wish no hostilities to arise between everyone, it's not on you if they don't understand.

At the end of the day I see this situation as such (in an ideal sense); Your ex should be getting her own place / transportation for her duration with your daughter. If she is not able to and your mother (for whatever reason) wishes to house her instead ... then it's go time on your boundaries.

The "Holiday Season" often reminds me of how many couples also view "Love" ... it becomes the exception and reason why one should endure bullshvt for the time being.

Such garbage.

*gets off soapbox*


----------



## Tron

I am not suggesting you do anything you don't want to do Z. No #3's.

But I have a little experience with this very issue. My sis' first H does not have family in our town, so when he doesn't travel to visit his family over the holidays, he has attended Christmas dinner with all of us. Several times over the years in fact and that includes my sis, their son and current H. It was not an issue with my sis or her current H...that I know of. But if it was, we wouldn't do it. 

Don't think there is any confusion about anything with my nephew. The D is real, he has 2 families, 2 homes, 2 bedrooms, and lives through standard visitation every week.

What are your exact thoughts and reservations? T's?


----------



## Lifescript

Z, 

Have you talked about this with T? 

I know you are worried about D7 but I don't think she'll get confused based on her level of maturity. She seems very mature for her age.


----------



## zillard

I tried the joint Christmas dinner last year - right after X moved out. 

It was super awkward, uncomfortable and unpleasant. And that was without T and my very large, judgmental family involved. 

X is notorious for not respecting boundaries, over sharing, and being a general pain in the @ss when experiencing anxiety. 

I think having dinner together is a surefire way to make the entire house uncomfortable, especially D7. 

D has still not seen her mother's house so I do not feel that things are as clean for her. She doesn't have 2 distinct families, 2 homes, 2 bedrooms. She does not have a standard visitation schedule. 

T and I are not married, don't live together, and don't have sleep overs as far as D knows. 

X visits alone, without her SO.

I fear that while sitting at a table having dinner with her mother and Tiger, she would be conflicted, feel she needs to pick sides, and feel guilt for picking because she cares for them both. And then resentment - which is something I want to prevent between her and T. 

I feel that is true at any dinner. 

Now make the setting her grandmother's house, where we normally had Christmas as a family, where there are still old family photos on the wall, and throw in X still calling my parents "mom" and "dad". 

T put it this way - yes, eventually this will need to happen, and it probably should. But the first time doesn't need to be on the 1 year anniversary... at your parents house... with your entire family... on Christmas day.


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> I am not suggesting you do anything you don't want to do Z. No #3's.
> 
> But I have a little experience with this very issue. My sis' first H does not have family in our town, so when he doesn't travel to visit his family over the holidays, he has attended Christmas dinner with all of us. Several times over the years in fact and that includes my sis, their son and current H. It was not an issue with my sis or her current H...that I know of. But if it was, we wouldn't do it.
> 
> Don't think there is any confusion about anything with my nephew. The D is real, he has 2 families, 2 homes, 2 bedrooms, and lives through standard visitation every week.
> 
> What are your exact thoughts and reservations? T's?


It's too soon.


----------



## zillard

An interesting thing - if I was going to be absent due to work, travel, celebrating with a SO's family, flu, etc then I wouldn't even hear a peep out of my family. 

It's a huge f'n family and it is typical for someone to be absent. 

I feel that the only reason this is an issue is because I am simply choosing not to go.


----------



## vi_bride04

Why is your family having such a hard time respecting your boundaries and what you feel is best for D7?


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> Why is your family having such a hard time respecting your boundaries and what you feel is best for D7?


Simple. 

They don't agree. 
They have selfish desires to have me there.
They don't want to handle X without me.


----------



## angelpixie

They're making a choice here in allowing X to stay with them. Choices beget consequences, good and bad. I'm guessing they haven't learned this yet. 

T is your present (and maybe your future). X is your past, but still in D7's life. Seems to me, given what you have to work with, you're doing a good job of balancing, Z.


----------



## zillard

Thank you Angel!


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Simple.
> 
> They don't agree.
> They have selfish desires to have me there.
> They don't want to handle X without me.


AND... the biggest factor... you taught them that pitching a fit would get you to cave.

Unteach them.

You're well on your way.


----------



## Tron

You know Z, I was wondering to what extent you two had discussed it and the thoughts behind it.

So thank you, as always, for sharing so thoughtfully.

Maybe you don't realize how common some of these issues truly are. And Angel is right, the way you and T handle them is admirable and can inspire others.


And for the record, the X needs to go spend the evening at the movies and let you and your family do their thing...


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> You know Z, I was wondering to what extent you two had discussed it and the thoughts behind it.
> 
> So thank you, as always, for sharing so thoughtfully.
> 
> Maybe you don't realize how common some of these issues truly are. And Angel is right, the way you and T handle them is admirable and can inspire others.
> 
> 
> And for the record, the X needs to go spend the evening at the movies and let you and your family do their thing...


You realize how unlikely that last sentence is, don't you?


----------



## Tron

Conrad said:


> You realize how unlikely that last sentence is, don't you?


Absolutely! But one can always dream. 

And Conrad, based on Z's comments last week, I was also gonna add that Z can easily take T and D7 completely out of the picture, because regardless of their discomfort or confusion, Z still carries resentment and anger towards the X. So you are right, it is too soon. And frankly, even if it is just about him, that is still enough.

If Z told the Family that he just isn't ready for a gathering like that with her, what can they reasonably say or argue?


----------



## zillard

You're not wrong, Tron. 

I do still have anger and resentment toward X. Most of that is centered around D7 but I'd be lying if I said that was all. 



Tron said:


> If Z told the Family that he just isn't ready for a gathering like that with her, what can they reasonably say or argue?


I agree with this statement. But as Daddio pointed out, many people get unreasonable or expect unreasonable things on the holidays. 

I was thinking about this - over analyzing as usual - and have another answer to Vi's question. 

The family is very religious, traditional and conservative. The religion is very patriarchal. Men are seen as the experts at everything BUT the children. That is where the women have expertise and control. 

Me saying it will be too confusing for D7 is almost immediately dismissed. The women don't agree, despite the fact that I'm in a much better position to gauge that. 

It's time to stop trying to explain it to them and just stick to "no, I'm not ok with it".


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> It's time to stop trying to explain it to them and just stick to "no, I'm not ok with it".


When it comes to my kids, it's my way or the highway. Your parents presume too much. 

I'm flabbergasted by this entire situation. I'm not certain this is one of those hands-off "let them make their own decision" moments.

In my world, X gets a hotel suite and D visits her there.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It's time to stop trying to explain it to them and just stick to "no, I'm not ok with it".


We all need this tattooed on our forearms.


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> You're not wrong, Tron.
> 
> I do still have anger and resentment toward X. Most of that is centered around D7 but I'd be lying if I said that was all.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with this statement. But as Daddio pointed out, many people get unreasonable or expect unreasonable things on the holidays.
> 
> I was thinking about this - over analyzing as usual - and have another answer to Vi's question.
> 
> The family is very religious, traditional and conservative. The religion is very patriarchal. Men are seen as the experts at everything BUT the children. That is where the women have expertise and control.
> 
> I have a problem with religious groups such as where one sex is out ranking the other. My ex's family was like this, except it was very matriarchal. It seems that there is no mutual respect to people as people vs what is hanging or not hanging between their legs. Sorry if this is a rude generalization but I am only going off of personal experiences.
> 
> Me saying it will be too confusing for D7 is almost immediately dismissed. The women don't agree, despite the fact that I'm in a much better position to gauge that.
> 
> And with that whole perceived "who is right and who is wrong" your concerns as a father are dismissed b/c "women know better". So frustrating for you I'm sure. Its like all respect for you as a father and your abilities go out the window. And not even just respect as a father but respect for you as a person. You are not trusted by them to make the best decision for D7 b/c you are male. They are so caught up in wanting their way they can't see the forest through the trees. Shouldn't they be promoting respect and love (and no drama) during the holidays? Christmas is an important time of year for religious folks, isn't it? Seems like treating others with respect should be on the forefront of their actions.
> 
> It's time to stop trying to explain it to them and just stick to "no, I'm not ok with it".
> 
> Yup, sounds like it. No point in arguing since you aren't respected enough to be listened to. Good luck Z!


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> I have a problem with religious groups such as where one sex is out ranking the other. My ex's family was like this, except it was very matriarchal. It seems that there is no mutual respect to people as people vs what is hanging or not hanging between their legs. Sorry if this is a rude generalization but I am only going off of personal experiences.


It goes back to my desire to bring food for thanksgiving - alone. An attempt to show that a Dad can be just as good at those things. 

This is prevalent not just in the family but in the community, and I'll be dealing with it for some time. 

I'm the only single dad in the family - and as far as I know, in the neighborhood as well. When I moved in the neighbor wives were all a flutter - "What you're doing is so nice. It's so commendable what you're doing for your daughter. She's such a lucky girl to have a dad like you."

But that quickly turns to "she's welcome here anytime" BUT our daughters won't be going to your house to play much. 

Like how my sister loves taking D7 places with her kids, but when I offer to take her kids somewhere it becomes "if you are sure you are up to it". 

Granted, men in general have a terrible track record - if you narrowly look at societal norms. This has enabled a certain stigma to grow which is difficult to combat. 

Single moms are amazing heroes juggling 20,000 things successfully and deserve utmost respect. 

Single dads that try get a huge golden star for effort with a footnote crediting all the female support in their lives.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> It goes back to my desire to bring food for thanksgiving - alone. An attempt to show that a Dad can be just as good at those things.
> 
> This is prevalent not just in the family but in the community, and I'll be dealing with it for some time.
> 
> I'm the only single dad in the family - and as far as I know, in the neighborhood as well. When I moved in the neighbor wives were all a flutter - "What you're doing is so nice. It's so commendable what you're doing for your daughter. She's such a lucky girl to have a dad like you."
> 
> But that quickly turns to "she's welcome here anytime" BUT our daughters won't be going to your house to play much.
> 
> Like how my sister loves taking D7 places with her kids, but when I offer to take her kids somewhere it becomes "if you are sure you are up to it".
> 
> Granted, men in general have a terrible track record - if you narrowly look at societal norms. This has enabled a certain stigma to grow which is difficult to combat.
> 
> Single moms are amazing heroes juggling 20,000 things successfully and deserve utmost respect.
> 
> Single dads that try get a huge golden star for effort with a footnote crediting all the female support in their lives.


I don't have them full time like you but I have 3 kids involved a million different things.

I had them for the whole month of July which happens to be birthday time for S10 and D7. 

I planned and coordinated their birthday parties at different locations on two consecutive weekends. Had kids fill out and mail their invitations. Picked out, bought and picked up birthday cakes, balloons, party favors and other party decorations. We had a great turn out for each. The kids mom was invited and showed at both. Imagine my disappointment overhearing the other moms complimenting her on the party's success.


----------



## angelpixie

It's interesting that the women in your family dismiss you as a parent because you're male, and yet X obviously has shown time and again that she has no inherent superior parenting ability simply because she has a vagina. And this doesn't do anything to change their outlook.

I think you're doing a great job by sticking to your boundaries and doing what is best for you and D7. If it was my situation, I don't know if I could handle my ex staying with my family in order to see DS. In both of our situations, the exes pulled enough gut-wrenching shet that it would be nice to know that our own families honored the pain we went through enough to not 'reward' the ex with free room and board.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Oh divorce. It's a funny thing.


----------



## zillard

Great example, Ceegee.

Unfortunately no matter what is done, these things will happen. Out of our control. 

So two areas need our focus: 

1. Continuing to be the best fathers we can be. 
2. Work on our need/desire to receive external validation from the women in our lives.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> In both of our situations, the exes pulled enough gut-wrenching shet that it would be nice to know that our own families honored the pain we went through enough to not 'reward' the ex with free room and board.


Yes!

While I do appreciate my family's willingness to host her for D7's sake, and I do not want them shunning her out of obligation, it would be nice to know that they've got my back. 

Demanding that I celebrate Christmas with X does not send that message.


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> Yes!
> 
> While I do appreciate my family's willingness to host her for D7's sake, and I do not want them shunning her out of obligation, it would be nice to know that they've got my back.
> 
> Demanding that I celebrate Christmas with X does not send that message.


None of their actions so far seem to send that message.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> it would be nice to know that they've got my back.


Clearly they don't have your back. 

Let them know it.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> An attempt to show that a Dad can be just as good at those things.
> 
> This is prevalent not just in the family but in the community, and I'll be dealing with it for some time.
> 
> I'm the only single dad in the family - and as far as I know, in the neighborhood as well. When I moved in the neighbor wives were all a flutter - "What you're doing is so nice. It's so commendable what you're doing for your daughter. She's such a lucky girl to have a dad like you."
> 
> But that quickly turns to "she's welcome here anytime" BUT our daughters won't be going to your house to play much.
> 
> Like how my sister loves taking D7 places with her kids, but when I offer to take her kids somewhere it becomes "if you are sure you are up to it".
> 
> Granted, men in general have a terrible track record - if you narrowly look at societal norms. This has enabled a certain stigma to grow which is difficult to combat.
> 
> Single moms are amazing heroes juggling 20,000 things successfully and deserve utmost respect.
> 
> Single dads that try get a huge golden star for effort with a footnote crediting all the female support in their lives.


Wow Z, I could have written this verbatim myself. You have struck a nerve with me. There is a girl up the street that is in my daughters grade (they also had the same teacher last year). D7 has been over to their house for play dates a few times. I once started talking to the little girl's mom about D7 wanting to have a sleepover, but I got cut off immediately with "we don't do sleepovers" before I could say "My sister will be at my house as well". I get it, I would be a bit apprehensive at my D7 going to another single dad's house without an adult female there as well (unless I knew the dad VERY well), but dang I wasn't even allowed to finish my sentence!


----------



## hope4family

The other side of it "Z" is that the stigma no matter how noble just doesn't seem right to society. 

They all love and respect you for it. To many, you aren't the norm. God forbid for one moment you turn down going to a party because you are a parent. 

"Doesn't the child have a mother?"
"You seem to have your kid often." 
"I never put the two & two together until just now." 

It's interesting. But as you said, Mothers become "super parents" Father, just a gold star.


----------



## angelpixie

Well, for the record, you guys are all 'super parents' in my book.


----------



## zillard

Yeah, I'm getting some of that from my brother too. 

I can tell he's getting frustrated because he was expecting single Z moving back to be a cure for his boredom - or at least more often.

Bro - You're like a different person since you started dating T. I'm not sure I like it.

It's no surprise that my changes are often attributed to my new girlfriend, but it's not that simple. 

I'm different after the dissolution of a 10 year delusion, separation, divorce, relocation, transition to single fatherhood, IC, renewed passion for life and personal development, AND a new girlfriend. 

Yeah, it sucks we can't hang out everyday like we did when I lived here last. But my "single" is not the same as his "single".


----------



## Pam

I am amazed that she didn't contact your parents, to make sure she would be welcome. EVEN THOUGH your mother issued an open ended invitation, it's Christmas for goodness' sake. And (I didn't read back) didn't your parents say she was less than an ideal house guest when she stayed with them before? In my opinion, ballsy is an understatement. "I'm flying in, you furnish the transportation and a place to stay. The end."


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> Clearly they don't have your back.
> 
> Let them know it.


And to let them know it most effectively, wait for the big, fat, slow pitch right down the middle.

The more you don't give them "their way", the more open and brazen they will become in demanding it.

You'll know the right moment when you see it. 50k


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> I don't have them full time like you but I have 3 kids involved a million different things.
> 
> I had them for the whole month of July which happens to be birthday time for S10 and D7.
> 
> I planned and coordinated their birthday parties at different locations on two consecutive weekends. Had kids fill out and mail their invitations. Picked out, bought and picked up birthday cakes, balloons, party favors and other party decorations. We had a great turn out for each. The kids mom was invited and showed at both. Imagine my disappointment overhearing the other moms complimenting her on the party's success.


And when that makes you laugh instead of bothering you, I'll pop for your cap and gown.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Hey Z, I was wondering how you went about selecting a Mini IC for your girl. The ex and I have been going back and forth for a while about our daughters health and it's gotten to the point where I believe she should see someone. Possible anxiety etc.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Hey Z, I was wondering how you went about selecting a Mini IC for your girl. The ex and I have been going back and forth for a while about our daughters health and it's gotten to the point where I believe she should see someone. Possible anxiety etc.


Hey! 

I found her first IC through referral. I went to the school to talk to the school counselor and make her aware of the situation. I asked for a referral from her for an IC that specializes in that age group. 

I lucked out and the IC was excellent. 

Before I moved, that IC recommended a certain type of therapist to look for - one that does Play Therapy (there are two different kinds of PT based on the child's personality, directive and non-directive). 

In the new location I got a list of providers on my insurance plan and started calling. I knew I wanted a female for her so that helped narrow it down. 

Most of the ICs who do play therapy were at the low-income clinics and would not accept us because we do have insurance - medicaid patients only. Bummer as when calling around 2 of them kept getting rave reviews. 

I was having trouble so I enlisted the help of the staff at one of the clinics with a good play therapist. They looked over my list of covered providers and recommended a couple as well as told me a few to avoid. 

After that I took that first one that could get us in. D7 took well to her - which is incredibly important - so we kept her.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Thanks dude, wasn't even aware that form of therapy existed ... even though you probably mentioned it during your thread at one point. Haha.

My employer supplies all sorts of therapy and employee assistance through an insurance company. This gives me something to ask them about directly when I call tomorrow and I'm hoping my children qualify.


----------



## just got it 55

Conrad said:


> We all need this tattooed on our forearms.


Some of us need it on our foreheads


----------



## 06Daddio08

No dice on the type of therapy I was looking for within the employee assistance program. They have someone who deals with the sort of thing but through the parents rather than directly with a child.

I'll keep that on the backburner and continue to look.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> No dice on the type of therapy I was looking for within the employee assistance program. They have someone who deals with the sort of thing but through the parents rather than directly with a child.
> 
> I'll keep that on the backburner and continue to look.


A lot of the actual work is done through the parents in many situations. 

Best of luck to you


----------



## zillard

Z - Hi X, 

My parents said they have not heard from you. Can you please confirm where you will be staying so I can make holiday plans? 

If you'll be arriving in town late Friday night, do you want D7 Friday night or starting Saturday morning?

Thanks. 

----

She called after finally talking to my parents, who told her someone would be there to pick her up (1.5 hrs away). 

Told me she almost cancelled the trip because her car broke down for the 3rd time in x amount of months. 

Z - that sucks

X - Would you want to bring D7 to pick me up? To surprise her?

Z - Huh? I need to think about that. (that caught me off guard. She sure has a set of cajones, that's for sure).

X - Oh. Okaaaaay. Well.... I'll be there Friday night. Guess I'll see ya then. 

----

Hey D7!

Let's take a car drive to a place called "I can't tell you yet" while I don't answer your questions for 1.5 hours. Then we can drive back to Grandmas for Christmas like a happy little family.


----------



## Pam

This just gets worse and worse.


----------



## MyTurn

Z ,
She sure has her way!
How about responding: D7 will be coming with her new mum eeee.....I mean friend T to pick you up.Surprise !


----------



## zillard

MyTurn said:


> Z ,
> She sure has her way!
> How about responding: D7 will be coming with her new mum eeee.....I mean friend T to pick you up.Surprise !


:rofl:


----------



## zillard

The only way I would pick her up is with T - and no D.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Your parents bug the sh!t out of me.


----------



## vi_bride04

Man....seems like they want you to be involved no matter how it is! Your parents, the x....what the heck? Can they not accpet its over?? Things have changed, its not a big happy family anymore


----------



## hope4family

Against the grain. 

I applaud your parents for trying. 

My ex-in-laws tried to do something similar with me. But rather then giving grievance to me on issues, they gave them to my ex-wife. Who in turn would use it to immediately bash me. 

That resolved itself quickly.


----------



## zillard

Ha. D and I made a quick stop off at my folks house on the way to TD3s holiday dance recital. Ma told me X called. I told her X wanted me and D to pick her up. 

Ma - I think that's a good idea. 

Z - I strongly disagree. 

Ma - your brother's on my side. 

Z - too bad. 

Then I left. 3X - they are buggin the ship outa me too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Ha. D and I made a quick stop off at my folks house on the way to TD3s holiday dance recital. Ma told me X called. I told her X wanted me and D to pick her up.
> 
> Ma - I think that's a good idea.
> 
> Z - I strongly disagree.
> 
> Ma - your brother's on my side.
> 
> Z - too bad.
> 
> Then I left. 3X - they are buggin the ship outa me too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not OK with that either.


----------



## just got it 55

hope4family said:


> I'm not OK with that either.


Tattooed on forehead


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Wow, just wow. I can take solace in the fact that my Dad and his wife (they married when I was 25) would never act like this or expect me to put up with this uncomfortable crap. Sorry they can't think about it from your point of view Z.


----------



## Pam

My husband's parents campaigned heavily for him and his ex wife to get back together, right up until the day he told them our wedding day. Never mind that she was the worst possible wife for him, and I really don't know why they thought their idea was a good one. They never really liked me, but we lasted 30 years (and then he died).


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> My husband's parents campaigned heavily for him and his ex wife to get back together, right up until the day he told them our wedding day. Never mind that she was the worst possible wife for him, and I really don't know why they thought their idea was a good one. They never really liked me, but we lasted 30 years (and then he died).


I don't even think it's that. I think it's shear selfishness combined with laziness.

They are accepting X into their home for the holidays. Ok - I get that for D7 as without their hospitality X probably wouldn't come.

BUT - they don't want to accept any of the consequences that comes with that hospitality. 

None of them want to take time out of their day for a 3 hr round trip, much less sit in a car with X for half of that on top of the time they already have to spend with her now. 

None of them want to have Christmas celebrations without me. 

I get that too. But too f'n bad. That goes hand in hand with mother's open-ended offer of hospitality. It's not my fault they have no boundaries. But they will try to make it my problem in order to minimize their responsibility. 

Don't want to drive and pick up your ex daughter-in-law? 

Then don't f'n tell her that someone will be there to pick her up! 

Not my promise - not my responsibility.


----------



## zillard

This is buggin me (obviously). Not smooth.

When X first contacted me about visiting around Christmas I should have laid out some boundaries in the very first response. 

When my mother asked this summer about hosting X I should not have simply told her it was up to her, but laid out some boundaries then too. 

This is stressful, but it is also a good learning opportunity - one that was needed. 

I'm out of practice having not dealt with this drama for some time.


----------



## hope4family

Its Ok Z. You are doing fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MyTurn

Z,
I know exactly how you feel , the pressure that the family puts on you.It's so frustrating.The irony of it all, is that they want to help you but in fact they make it worst.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Where does your father stand? All I hear is "Ma".


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Where does your father stand? All I hear is "Ma".


After multiple back surgeries and retirement he doesn't do much but defer these days.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This is buggin me (obviously). Not smooth.
> 
> When X first contacted me about visiting around Christmas I should have laid out some boundaries in the very first response.
> 
> When my mother asked this summer about hosting X I should not have simply told her it was up to her, but laid out some boundaries then too.
> 
> This is stressful, but it is also a good learning opportunity - one that was needed.
> 
> I'm out of practice having not dealt with this drama for some time.


In some ways, this is harder than dealing with X.

These are deep deep grooves they're searching for - and a soda machine that's been in operation since you were very young.


----------



## Pam

And she's going to be there a week. How can any of them think that is going to work out okay? Train wreck.


----------



## zillard

I sent her a reservation for a shuttle bus and told her I'll be picking up D7 for Xmas eve dinner and returning her after gifts in the morning.


----------



## Pam

From August:



> I got a call from my mother this morning.
> 
> Mom - X is still asleep and her plane leaves at Xam.
> 
> Z - Well she needs to leave if she wants to catch the plane.
> 
> Mom - Do I wake her up though? I don't want to be codependent, but I'm ready to have no more company.


Add in the stress of a big family Christmas with X in the middle of all of it, doing her "thing". Your mother is going to be beside herself. I know she doesn't drink, but she might be thinking longingly of searching X's bags.

Love the idea of the shuttle bus reservation; I didn't even think about that.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Pity his ex didn't either.


----------



## vi_bride04

06Daddio08 said:


> Pity his ex didn't either.


Or his parents....

Z saves the day again


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



vi_bride04 said:


> Or his parents....
> 
> Z saves the day again


No doubt for his daughters sake. Something I can relate to.


----------



## angelpixie

I understand, too, but maybe next time (hoping there won't be one, but...) just a link to the shuttle's website instead of a full reservation? Big people have to do things like this for themselves all the time. She should try to get used to it.


----------



## zillard

This whole deal makes it obvious that there is huge room for improvement. I don't feel bad about the shuttle though. It isn't the ideal situation but it was a better option than the others that were being thrown around by my family, X and even T. 

I stood my ground with Ma and my brother. Since then Ma called to acknowledge that me picking up X would be inappropriate and that the shuttle was better. 

Bro is still pressuring me to come over for Christmas dinner. I refused. He offered to send X to the movies or something to try and solve the situation. I still refused. 

If X is coming up to spend time with D7 - she should. If Ma is hosting X - she should and deal with me not being there. 

I will not give up Christmas eve night and Christmas morning with D. But I won't demand that AND dinner on Christmas too. 

Seriously, how did he think I would explain that to D7. Yep - he didn't. 

I truly think that I'm going to have a great Christmas. And so will my daughter. 

It's a pity that my family and X will have a weird, uncomfortable, stressful holiday. But perhaps they need that experience.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> This whole deal makes it obvious that there is huge room for improvement. I don't feel bad about the shuttle though. It isn't the ideal situation but it was a better option than the others that were being thrown around by my family, X and even T.
> 
> I stood my ground with Ma and my brother. Since then Ma called to acknowledge that me picking up X would be inappropriate and that the shuttle was better.
> 
> Bro is still pressuring me to come over for Christmas dinner. I refused. He offered to send X to the movies or something to try and solve the situation. I still refused.
> 
> If X is coming up to spend time with D7 - she should. If Ma is hosting X - she should and deal with me not being there.
> 
> I will not give up Christmas eve night and Christmas morning with D. But I won't demand that AND dinner on Christmas too.
> 
> Seriously, how did he think I would explain that to D7. Yep - he didn't.
> 
> I truly think that I'm going to have a great Christmas. And so will my daughter.
> 
> It's a pity that my family and X will have a weird, uncomfortable, stressful holiday. But perhaps they need that experience.


Perhaps?


----------



## Ceegee

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Conrad said:


> Perhaps?


Rephrase: perhaps they will learn from this experience.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> Rephrase: perhaps they will learn from this experience.


Doubtful... especially when it comes to X.


----------



## angelpixie

There could be a Christmas Miracle.


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> There could be a Christmas Miracle.


Not the kind X wants. :noel:


----------



## Pbartender

angelpixie said:


> There could be a Christmas Miracle.


For who?


----------



## angelpixie

angelpixie said:


> There could be a Christmas Miracle.





Pbartender said:


> For who?



For Z: That his family learns how to do this the right way next time.


----------



## Ceegee

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



angelpixie said:


> There could be a Christmas Miracle.


Well, if you want to put a D1ckens spin on this...

They WILL be getting a visit fron the ghost Christmas past. 

Unfortunately it comes at the expense of Christmas present and future.


----------



## Pam

It's going to be a long week.


----------



## zillard

It's all gravy - I'm keeping busy. 

Finishing up Christmas shopping. 
Helping my brother lay flooring in his soon-to-be tattoo studio. 
And spending a lot of time with T and TD3.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It's all gravy - I'm keeping busy.
> 
> Finishing up Christmas shopping.
> Helping my brother lay flooring in his soon-to-be tattoo studio.
> And spending a lot of time with T and TD3.


Is she already there?


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Is she already there?


Yeah, she got here Friday night at 11pm. 

I waited at my parents house with D7 (I let her stay up). I just told her that she was having a sleepover there, so she wouldn't question the bags I packed. 

X got the shuttle into town but still needed to be picked up from the depot. My mother hinted but would not straight out ask me to go get her - likely because she already knew my response. 

I just sat back and watched as Ma, my brother and sister all did a back and forth trying to pass the buck. Finally my brother went and got her. 

D7 was glowing when she saw her mom walk through the door. She was absolutely floored. That is why I waited. I wanted to see her face and it was totally worth it. 

I did a rundown of the plans with D, in front of X. She'll stay there with her mom until Christmas eve when I pick her up, then after presents Christmas morning I'll bring her back for another day and night with her mom. 

She instantly agreed, but likely would've agreed to anything at that point. We'll see if her attitude changes when it's time to pick her up - but she will be coming with me regardless. 

X was very pleasant - tried to joke a lot. I smiled and left with my bro.


----------



## ladylaker

*Re: Alone for the Holidays*

This year is especially difficult being alone for the holidays. Single life sucks and although I'm normally a very happy person, I'm feeling very sad and lonely. 

The single sites are depressing. I can't believe how many single fathers out there have voiced that they don't believe I would make a good fit since I don't know anything about parenting. How would they even know if they have not met me? Why do they jump to such a conclusion? 

It just wasn't in Gods plan for me and although I'm thankful for so many things, I can't help but feel cheated. 

For everyone out there spending the holiday without family, please know that you are not alone!! Sorry to bring everyone down, but I just had to let this out....


----------



## zillard

*Re: Alone for the Holidays*



ladylaker said:


> This year is especially difficult being alone for the holidays. Single life sucks and although I'm normally a very happy person, I'm feeling very sad and lonely.
> 
> The single sites are depressing. I can't believe how many single fathers out there have voiced that they don't believe I would make a good fit since I don't know anything about parenting. How would they even know if they have not met me? Why do they jump to such a conclusion?
> 
> It just wasn't in Gods plan for me and although I'm thankful for so many things, I can't help but feel cheated.
> 
> For everyone out there spending the holiday without family, please know that you are not alone!! Sorry to bring everyone down, but I just had to let this out....


No problem, ladylaker. Holidays without family can be very difficult. 

As for the fathers. Try not to take it personal. I'd venture to guess that most of the guys who've said that are looking for a fill in mom, not a good partner. 

Good luck to them. Someone who can handle their own baggage without needing you will make a better partner. 

Do something for you. Treat yourself. 

Merry Christmas!


----------



## zillard

Also, I've met plenty of childless women who would be great mothers, and many mothers who suck at it.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Enjoy your holiday time Zillard.


----------



## Conrad

*Re: Alone for the Holidays*



ladylaker said:


> This year is especially difficult being alone for the holidays. Single life sucks and although I'm normally a very happy person, I'm feeling very sad and lonely.
> 
> The single sites are depressing. I can't believe how many single fathers out there have voiced that they don't believe I would make a good fit since I don't know anything about parenting. How would they even know if they have not met me? Why do they jump to such a conclusion?
> 
> It just wasn't in Gods plan for me and although I'm thankful for so many things, I can't help but feel cheated.
> 
> For everyone out there spending the holiday without family, please know that you are not alone!! Sorry to bring everyone down, but I just had to let this out....


Easy way to answer that one.

"I think it's a positive that I don't have any kids to jam down your throat"

See how they like that.


----------



## zillard

Thanks Daddio. Same to you and yours.

Off to lay more floor for a bit, then beer, snow and hot tub with T.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

How I envy you Z. Merry Christmas!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Don't envy me CG. 

Conrad was right. This sh!t with family and mothers can be more difficult than X. 

After work today I accompanied Tiger to her work holiday party. It was a good time. She went home to take care of TD3 and I went out with my brother and fitness instructor friend who was in town visiting. 

Mistake #1. I picked up my brother from my parents house. 

I went in and X and D7 was laughing with everyone. Cool. I kissed my baby princess and told her good night, then I grabbed my brother to go. 

In front of D7 and X, Ma starts talking about what time she's having Xmas dinner. Looks to me and asks if that's ok.

Z - I don't know. Is it? I won't be there. 

Ma - Coward.

Mistake #2. I ignored it. Said goodbye to D7 and left. 

I have no desire to spend Xmas day with a woman who has disrespected me like that. Also, I don't want to dine with my exwife.

I should have avoided the house altogether. 

And if I didn't, I should have stood my ground, and told my mother that I was not ok with that behavior - especially in front of D7. In front of D7.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Looks like after this Christmas things will need to change with Mother eh?


----------



## angelpixie

Ooooh, not good, Z, not good. issed: Manipulative people like that have missed out on a very important lesson: Having perfect attendance at the holiday dinner doesn't mean much if a number of the people are only there due to obligation or emotional blackmail. It's far better to have a home that your kids _want_ to come back to at holiday time. And to achieve that, you have to treat them with respect, not manipulate them like little puppets. 

She's causing her own problems, but people like that refuse to see it.

Ugh. Sorry, Z.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Looks like after this Christmas things will need to change with Mother eh?


Yes! 

This is so far from ok. I ranted to my bro and friend at the bar. That was good and excellent reason why spending time with male friends is a must. 

My brother finally came around and admitted his thinking did not involve long term relationships or children. 

First item on the agenda tomorrow is calling and talking to my parents to express myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pam

Your mother seems accustomed to getting her way, by any means necessary. It may work for a while, but usually that backfires.


----------



## vi_bride04

Wow Z. Hope you can put up some boundaries with your mother today. 

She's the coward - using emotional abuse to try to get you to conform. Screw her. 

Ugh, reminds me of my mom....


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Don't envy me CG.
> 
> Conrad was right. This sh!t with family and mothers can be more difficult than X.
> 
> After work today I accompanied Tiger to her work holiday party. It was a good time. She went home to take care of TD3 and I went out with my brother and fitness instructor friend who was in town visiting.
> 
> Mistake #1. I picked up my brother from my parents house.
> 
> I went in and X and D7 was laughing with everyone. Cool. I kissed my baby princess and told her good night, then I grabbed my brother to go.
> 
> In front of D7 and X, Ma starts talking about what time she's having Xmas dinner. Looks to me and asks if that's ok.
> 
> Z - I don't know. Is it? I won't be there.
> 
> Ma - Coward.
> 
> Mistake #2. I ignored it. Said goodbye to D7 and left.
> 
> I have no desire to spend Xmas day with a woman who has disrespected me like that. Also, I don't want to dine with my exwife.
> 
> I should have avoided the house altogether.
> 
> And if I didn't, I should have stood my ground, and told my mother that I was not ok with that behavior - especially in front of D7. In front of D7.


Never fear, you'll get another chance

Like with my sister, it will keep happening until you stop it.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Conrad said:


> Never fear, you'll get another chance
> 
> Like with my sister, it will keep happening until you stop it.


I'm very familiar with this Z. It's harder sometimes to stand up to your mother than the ex. 

I'm surprised your mom said that in front of D7. That was out of line for sure.


----------



## Pbartender

This is by no means a defense of your mother's "Coward", and I fully understand the ongoing frustration of the way she was trying to manipulate you into staying for Christmas dinner, but this...



zillard said:


> Z - I don't know. Is it? I won't be there.


...seemed like an unnecessarily antagonistic smart-ass reply.

I'm not sure I would had a better answer, but you may have been reflexively goading her. 

Sounds like she's been slowly pulling you back into her drama triangle, despite your best efforts.


----------



## zillard

My brother must have said something. 

This morning my mother stopped by, with her sister for support. They brought me a new pair of shoes and a bag of goodies. 

My mother tried to give me a hug.

Z - I don't feel like hugging you, mother. 

Ma - Why? Because of what I did?

Z - Because you called me a coward in front of my ex-wife and my daughter! That was so incredibly disrespectful and it really really hurt.

Ma - I'm sorry. I didn't know it would hurt you. I don't think they even heard me.

Z - Maybe, but I did. Mom, this a woman that really hurt me and it would be nice if you had my back. 

Ma - I do. And this isn't going to be happening again. If she wants to come up during the summer that's fine, but not on the holidays. Not at the sacrifice of you. I'd rather spend time with you. And it's about D7, it's for her. 

Z - That's your choice. But I am not required to participate. Demanding that I do is disrespectful. There are so many layers to this. It's not even that I just feel uncomfortable. This is about so many things. The year that I've spent in therapy with D7, enabling, my new relationship. And even if I just feel uncomfortable, that should be enough. Calling me a coward makes it all about my discomfort and minimizes everything else. And that's not true. It's not ok. 

Ma - Well I'm really sorry. I didn't know. 

She tried to hug me again as she edged for the door. 

Z - I need time. 

Ma - Ok. 

And she walked out, while my aunt stayed. 

Aunt - She's in an unfair spot with X coming here. 

Z - I've been very careful not to tell her yes or no about that, because it's her decision what happens at her house. 

Aunt - I want your therapist. She is sorry. She didn't know what she was doing. It just slipped out. 

Z - It's not ok for that to "slip out" in front of my daughter. 

Aunt - No, it's not. I love you.

Z - I love you too. Both of you. 

Aunt - I know. Just don't punish her too long.


----------



## ReGroup

Just know that I exactly know how you feel.

Time and time again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> My brother must have said something.
> 
> This morning my mother stopped by, with her sister for support. They brought me a new pair of shoes and a bag of goodies.
> 
> My mother tried to give me a hug.
> 
> Z - I don't feel like hugging you, mother.
> 
> Ma - Why? Because of what I did?
> 
> Z - Because you called me a coward in front of my ex-wife and my daughter! That was so incredibly disrespectful and it really really hurt.
> 
> Ma - I'm sorry. I didn't know it would hurt you. I don't think they even heard me.
> 
> Z - Maybe, but I did. Mom, this a woman that really hurt me and it would be nice if you had my back.
> 
> Ma - I do. And this isn't going to be happening again. If she wants to come up during the summer that's fine, but not on the holidays. Not at the sacrifice of you. I'd rather spend time with you. And it's about D7, it's for her.
> 
> Z - That's your choice. But I am not required to participate. Demanding that I do is disrespectful. There are so many layers to this. It's not even that I just feel uncomfortable. This is about so many things. The year that I've spent in therapy with D7, enabling, my new relationship. And even if I just feel uncomfortable, that should be enough. Calling me a coward makes it all about my discomfort and minimizes everything else. And that's not true. It's not ok.
> 
> Ma - Well I'm really sorry. I didn't know.
> 
> She tried to hug me again as she edged for the door.
> 
> Z - I need time.
> 
> Ma - Ok.
> 
> And she walked out, while my aunt stayed.
> 
> Aunt - She's in an unfair spot with X coming here.
> 
> Z - I've been very careful not to tell her yes or no about that, because it's her decision what happens at her house.
> 
> Aunt - I want your therapist. She is sorry. She didn't know what she was doing. It just slipped out.
> 
> Z - It's not ok for that to "slip out" in front of my daughter.
> 
> Aunt - No, it's not. I love you.
> 
> Z - I love you too. Both of you.
> 
> Aunt - I know. Just don't punish her too long.


Punish?

This was the first time you ever stood up to her.

I hate people.

All they want to do is enable the emotional terrorists.


----------



## zillard

The fact that she brought backup says a lot.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> The fact that she brought backup says a lot.


Speaking from my own experiences with my mother, who often employs similar tactics to yours...

Your aunt may have been backing up your mother out of her own volition. I wouldn't be surprised if she thought she was helping to protect your mom from you, based on a sob-story about what a jerk you were being.

My mom tries to do that all the time with my brothers and sisters and me... We've discovered that direct communication between us ameliorates that damage and frustration.


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Speaking from my own experiences with my mother, who often employs similar tactics to yours...
> 
> Your aunt may have been backing up your mother out of her own volition. I wouldn't be surprised if she thought she was helping to protect your mom from you, based on a sob-story about what a jerk you were being.
> 
> My mom tries to do that all the time with my brothers and sisters and me... We've discovered that direct communication between us ameliorates that damage and frustration.


Gee, how did we ever get attracted to these types of people?


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> Speaking from my own experiences with my mother, who often employs similar tactics to yours...
> 
> Your aunt may have been backing up your mother out of her own volition. I wouldn't be surprised if she thought she was helping to protect your mom from you, based on a sob-story about what a jerk you were being.
> 
> My mom tries to do that all the time with my brothers and sisters and me... We've discovered that direct communication between us ameliorates that damage and frustration.


I think you are spot on. Enablers love to enable other enablers, as it justifies their own enabling. Auntie is just as bad with her own kids.


----------



## 06Daddio08

You did good Z and it will take a few more incidences like this to create the default you want.

In regards to the summer, so it's okay on her behalf to house your ex during the summer but not the holidays? She doesn't get it and this is still very much about her. Not you.

It took a year for things to become a new normal with my mother and my brother. I love that woman but she used to play us against each other all the time and then cry such a guilt ridden foul.

Now, if I don't like a comment she makes I simply don't acknowledge it. This actually goes for most people, unless I want to entertain it and see where it does.

Stick to your guns and give when you're okay with it.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> In regards to the summer, so it's okay on her behalf to house your ex during the summer but not the holidays? She doesn't get it and this is still very much about her. Not you.


boom!


----------



## hope4family

Conrad said:


> Gee, how did we ever get attracted to these types of people?


Had a similar conversation with a friend last week. 

Why when you stand up to someones bullying are YOU called the *******? 

You're Mother called you a coward in front of your ex & daughter under the guise of "joking". Since when is what your ex put you and your daughter through a "joke". 

It's very simple fix to. Say sorry, own up to it. Accept the consequences, move on. 

The fact that this is "punishing" someone is laughable at best.


----------



## ReGroup

And here I thought I was the only person dealing w/ this sort of crap.


----------



## vi_bride04

You guys remind me why I cut my family out of my life. Don't miss this type of b.s. AT ALL!


----------



## Conrad

ReGroup said:


> And here I thought I was the only person dealing w/ this sort of crap.


ROFLMFAO

Your journey has just begun young Jedi.

How the hell do you think you got this way?

Remember - they're "in the club"

(I miss you Mavi)


----------



## ThreeStrikes

"It just slipped out"

WTF!!!

The fact that she even* thought it* is bad enough.

For what it's worth, my mother is no longer a part of my life. Some people just have to go....


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> "It just slipped out"
> 
> WTF!!!
> 
> The fact that she even* thought it* is bad enough.
> 
> For what it's worth, my mother is no longer a part of my life. Some people just have to go....


Gee, she didn't get her way.

I keep hearing about all the women that aren't this way.

Guys that end up on this board are just unlucky, I guess.


----------



## hope4family

ReGroup said:


> And here I thought I was the only person dealing w/ this sort of crap.


Nope. 

Get ready to be tested too, you'll find that it usually doesn't end with putting your foot down once.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



ReGroup said:


> And here I thought I was the only person dealing w/ this sort of crap.


We have ex wives and family. You're not alone. Lol.


----------



## Conrad

hope4family said:


> Nope.
> 
> Get ready to be tested too, you'll find that it usually doesn't end with putting your foot down once.


Mavi's golden rule.

Tell them 50,000 times.

They'll begin to realize you mean business.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> Don't envy me GG.
> 
> Conrad was right. This sh!t with family and mothers can be more difficult than X.
> 
> After work today I accompanied Tiger to her work holiday party. It was a good time. She went home to take care of TD3 and I went out with my brother and fitness instructor friend who was in town visiting.
> 
> Mistake #1. I picked up my brother from my parents house.
> 
> I went in and X and D7 was laughing with everyone. Cool. I kissed my baby princess and told her good night, then I grabbed my brother to go.
> 
> In front of D7 and X, Ma starts talking about what time she's having Xmas dinner. Looks to me and asks if that's ok.
> 
> Z - I don't know. Is it? I won't be there.
> 
> Ma - Coward.
> 
> Mistake #2. I ignored it. Said goodbye to D7 and left.
> 
> I have no desire to spend Xmas day with a woman who has disrespected me like that. Also, I don't want to dine with my exwife.
> 
> I should have avoided the house altogether.
> 
> And if I didn't, I should have stood my ground, and told my mother that I was not ok with that behavior - especially in front of D7. In front of D7.


Z, I apologize, I had not waited to see how the entire situation would play out and did not mean to trivialize the goings on with your mother and family. 

I'll speak for myself that having to see my ex every few days is a blessing and a curse. A curse in that I have to see her every few days, but a blessing in that I've been able to get over most of the emotional triggers (at first that was longing, then anger, then dissapointment, the whole rollercoaster) by having to deal with them when they came up. They almost never come up anymore. I just keep taking care of my D7 and not let her suck me back into the drama triangle.

I do hope you are able to make the best of it and have a Merry Christmas with your daughter and T.


----------



## angelpixie

Conrad said:


> Gee, she didn't get her way.
> 
> I keep hearing about all the *ex-spouses* that aren't this way.
> 
> *Those of us who ended up on this board* are just unlucky, I guess.



ftfy


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



angelpixie said:


> ftfy


*gasp*


----------



## Pam

Start thinking now, how you will handle the fallout after X goes home.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Gee, how did we ever get attracted to these types of people?


Oddly enough, that sounds just like the sort of snarky, passive-aggressive, behind-the-back, off-hand comment that my mother uses to manipulate me and my siblings into taking her side against someone.

Great example of what to look out for, Conrad! Thanks!

:smthumbup:


----------



## angelpixie

:rofl:


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> Oddly enough, that sounds just like the sort of snarky, passive-aggressive, behind-the-back, off-hand comment that my mother uses to manipulate me and my siblings into taking her side against someone.
> 
> Great example of what to look out for, Conrad! Thanks!
> 
> :smthumbup:


I'm sorry you feel that way.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Gee, how did we ever get attracted to these types of people?





Pbartender said:


> Oddly enough, that sounds just like the sort of snarky, passive-aggressive, behind-the-back, off-hand comment that my mother uses to manipulate me and my siblings into taking her side against someone.
> 
> Great example of what to look out for, Conrad! Thanks!
> 
> :smthumbup:


It occurs to me that my reply there was pretty snarky and passive-aggressive itself (Gee, where did I learn that from? ). I wasn't joking, though. It really is the sort of thing my Mom would say.

Let's take a look at that statement from 50,000 feet...

Instead of clearly and constructively remarking on how the dysfunctional behavior of Z's family, and especially his mom, is what he grew up with and what he's always been used to, so the similarity of X's behavior during and after their marriage created an attractive familiarity, which explains why he chose to marry her... Conrad said:

_"Gee, how did we ever get attracted to these types of people?"_

What does a remark like this do? Without actually stating anything concrete...


It implies an Us vs. Them dichotomy.
It absolves Z (and the rest of us) of the responsibility of having chosen X (or our respective Xs) as his wife (etc).
It implies that the blame is Z's mother's, instead.

And it does it using a derisive, disrespectful tone.

In short, it creates feelings of sympathy and trust in Conrad, and it drives a little wedge of resentment between Z (and all the rest of us, too) and his X and Mother, without giving any actual helpful advice toward solving the problem or dealing with it.

My mother says this sort of thing because, like so many of us, she hates direct confrontation. So, when she has a problem with someone, she uses this tactic to first gain an ally and then to turn her problem person into an enemy in the eyes of her new ally. The ally will then go fight my mother's battles for her.

I called your comment out, Conrad, because in all likelihood, it's exactly how Z's mom recruited Z's aunt. It's a manipulative tactic that plays on our sympathies and our compulsions to fix other people's problems. It's an easy trap for any of us to fall into and one we need to be especially aware of, whether we're using it, or it's being using on us, or it's being used against us.


----------



## Conrad

Pbar,

It means simply that our subconscious is comfortable and attracted to people that treat us the way we're used to being treated.

Zillard married a woman who used the same sort of emotional blackmail of his mother. I married one who fought to the death with me like my sister. Most of the men who inhabit this section of this board found their spouses in similar fashion.

That's all it meant. It was about taking responsibility for our poor choices and understanding the origin of them.

That's actually a message of empowerment.

And, I am sorry you felt that way about it.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

I think what Conrad was referring to is the tendency to choose a spouse who most resembles the parent who abandoned or abused us (emotional or physical) when we were kids.

Codependents tend to be attracted to Cluster B's, and vice versa.

It's the reason I married my mother.

I'm always curious about the defensiveness of some of you folks.


----------



## Conrad

I now suggest we return Zillard's thread to him.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> Pbar,
> 
> It means simply that our subconscious is comfortable and attracted to people that treat us the way we're used to being treated.
> 
> Zillard married a woman who used the same sort of emotional blackmail of his mother. I married one who fought to the death with me like my sister. Most of the men who inhabit this section of this board found their spouses in similar fashion.
> 
> That's all it meant. It was about taking responsibility for our poor choices and understanding the origin of them.


Then, why didn't you say that the first time?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Pbartender said:


> Then, why didn't you say that the first time?


He did.


----------



## 06Daddio08

ThreeStrikes said:


> I think what Conrad was referring to is the tendency to choose a spouse who most resembles the parent who abandoned or abused us (emotional or physical) when we were kids.
> 
> Codependents tend to be attracted to Cluster B's, and vice versa.
> 
> It's the reason I married my mother.
> 
> I'm always curious about the defensiveness of some of you folks.





Pbartender said:


> Then, why didn't you say that the first time?


Pbar is spot on. Although, as suggested it should be brought back to the attention of Zillard.


----------



## Pbartender

Conrad said:


> I now suggest we return Zillard's thread to him.


And now you're starting to sound a little like my ex-wife... "I don't want to discuss this anymore!"

  



(Sorry for the digression, Z.)


----------



## Conrad

Pbartender said:


> And now you're starting to sound a little like my ex-wife... "I don't want to discuss this anymore!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Sorry for the digression, Z.)


Now, I don't like where this conversation is heading...


----------



## angelpixie

If we can all learn something from this, I don't think Z will mind. None of us would be on a forum if we were only interested in our own situations.

And no, Conrad did not originally put it in the type of clear, non-PA language that Pbar used, which was later echoed by Conrad and 3S. If that's what was meant, why not say it in the first place?

And *again*, I will reiterate that many of the *people* in this section of TAM (including GTDS and LAD) are here because we found our spouses in similar fashion. This is another way that Conrad constantly turns things into Us v. Them. Women are not a monolith that all act the same way. Neither are men. The similarities that the women and men see in our situations on TAM have less to do with gender and more to do with personality. Vi and I are not lesbians. We did not marry women. Yet, we have been through things very similar to things that Z, and Pbar, and Soca, and Script, et al, have dealt with. Why do you need to turn it into some male badge of pride, Conrad? How does that help an individual's situation? You refer to Mav, but she also stated that we are just as likely to choose friends from a dysfunctional background, not just partners. And obviously, those friends could be of either gender. It's our own tendencies that we need to look at, no matter who we are. And if we drop the Men vs. Women, Us vs. Them crap, we are far more free to learn and help each other.



And by the way... Merry Christmas, everybody!


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Pbartender said:


> I called your comment out, Conrad, because in all likelihood, it's exactly how Z's mom recruited Z's aunt. *It's a manipulative tactic that plays on our sympathies and our compulsions to fix other people's problems. It's an easy trap for any of us to fall into and one we need to be especially aware of, whether we're using it, or it's being using on us, or it's being used against us.*


Yep. And it's happening right now.

Allies recruited? Check
Compulsion to fix other's problems? Check
Going on the defensive to explain our behavior? Check


So what have we really learned? 

Answer: Habits are hard to break, and behavior is hard to change.


----------



## angelpixie

ThreeStrikes said:


> Yep. And it's happening right now.


Wait for it...





I'm sorry you feel that way.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Ha! You can do better....


----------



## angelpixie

Not til after our third date.


----------



## Pbartender

ThreeStrikes said:


> Ha! You can do better....


So can Conrad.  



Conrad said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.


----------



## Pbartender

ThreeStrikes said:


> Yep. And it's happening right now.
> 
> Allies recruited? Check
> Compulsion to fix other's problems? Check
> Going on the defensive to explain our behavior? Check
> 
> 
> So what have we really learned?
> 
> Answer: Habits are hard to break, and behavior is hard to change.


Yep, you're right. Look at how people came rushing to the defense of both me and Conrad... and I'm pretty sure neither of us was even _trying_ to manipulate anyone, though each of us was in our own way. Hell, we we're both perfectly willing and able to fight our own fight, and others stepped up to fight for us anyway.

The fact is, all human interaction is going to have some degree of manipulation...

Even something as constructive as setting boundaries is manipulating others. At its most basic, "Don't do that, or I will do this." or "Do this, or I won't do that." But it's honest, open manipulation... Both sides know _exactly_ what is being asked.

What we need to watch out for, though, both in ourselves and others around us is the covert manipulation... The subtle, indirect manipulation that influences people's emotions in order to get them to do something without actually being asked to do it.

That's dangerous, because we have to guess what others mean and what they want us to do... And if we get it wrong, we get in trouble for seemingly no reason.

And likewise, if try to use it, we are relying on others to guess what we mean and what they want us to do... And if they get it wrong, we get peeved at them because we didn't get what wanted.

And that's the problem Z was having with his Mom... She kept hinting that she wanted him at the Christmas celebrations, and when he said no, she simply kept implying that he was going to be there anyway. If she had just come out and said, "Z, I really want the whole family together for Christmas, including you and X, because..." the situation might have turned out very differently.

The moral of the story is... Say what you mean.


----------



## angelpixie

*So...is it OK for me to like that post? Or have I been manipulated into liking it? I wish he would just come out and *say* if he wants people to like this post.*


----------



## Pbartender

*Like This Post!*


----------



## Pbartender

And Merry Christmas Z, D & T.

:smthumbup:


----------



## vi_bride04

Good luck navigating the family crap today, z 

Merry Xmas!!!


----------



## just got it 55

Pbartender said:


> And now you're starting to sound a little like my ex-wife... "I don't want to discuss this anymore!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Sorry for the digression, Z.)


Peebs and Conrad We are all learning from this conversation.

55


----------



## zillard

What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.
- Robert Anton Wilson

The mind's job is to prove itself right.


----------



## zillard

It's been a while since I posted an update. Things are going well.

On Christmas Eve I picked up D7 from my parents' house. She was ready to go and it went smoothly. We were invited to Tiger's parents' house - they celebrate on Christmas Eve. 

It was really nice. Dinner with her whole family, some of which I met for the first time. Then gift exchange around the fire followed by play time with the kids and their new toys. 

The more I observe T's mother the more I love them both. The more I observe her father the deeper my respect for him grows. 

After that T and her daughter came back to my house with us. TD3 and D7 had a sleepover while T and I stayed up into the early morning wrapping and assembling gifts for them both. We then slept for a couple hours before moving to the couch - we wanted to see their faces as they came down stairs in the morning. 

This was a big step. We had talked about it at length, contemplated, and talked more. I also talked to D7 about spending Christmas together beforehand. She was all for it and pointed out that their stockings were already hanging at our house. 

At first I was worried about how D would react to leaving her mother for the night, but she did absolutely great. In the morning we exchanged more gifts, had breakfast together, and played until right before noon. 

Then T took TD3 to her father's and I took D7 back to her mother. On the short drive she told me she had an awesome Christmas and told me how much she loves me. 

When we walked into my parents' place it was a madhouse of people, as usual on the holidays. I quickly exchanged gifts with my siblings and watched as my mother received the new oven/range that my brother and I had purchased. 

I gave my father a gift. He scanned the room to make sure the coast was clear and said, "I really don't want this arrangement to happen again."

Z - I don't blame ya.

During I noticed X switching from smiling at me to scowling. My brother later told me she was complaining to him about how I took D7 for Christmas Eve. Ha. Too bad. 

I said goodbyes and left. I turned down offers to go see movies with family members a few times and spent the rest of the day with T. Later a few siblings stopped by for a bit. 

It was actually an excellent Christmas. Better than I had hoped.

The next day I showed up at my parents' house a little before X was scheduled to leave. She had been hinting to everybody that she didn't want to take the shuttle again but, as far as I know, never came out and asked anyone for a ride. So eventually she made a reservation for the shuttle on her own. 

I was there for D7s goodbyes with her mom, but was intentionally in the other room. There if D needed me, but not intruding on their moment. 

Later my mother told me that D7 did much better this time with the parting than she did during the summer with me not there. This time X was in tears but D was not, though obviously not happy about her mother leaving. 

After X left D asked to go home. That was new as she usually doesn't want to leave Grandma's house full of toys, sweets, and playful cousins. 

The next couple days was daddy daughter decompression time. At bedtime one night she expressed unhappiness that X and I divorced. We talked about it again and she was super cuddly those days. The second day after X left we missed her nightly call by about an hour. As always when that happens I picked up the phone and asked if she wanted to call her mother back. 

She almost always says yes, but this time said no. I knew the aftermath would be more troublesome than the visit and there would be a necessary adjustment period, so I did not press the issue. 

Since then they've had good, long talks with each other. 

Then New Years Eve. I had some family, a couple friends, and T over for some drinks, food and games. I let D stay up to see the ball drop. While I was putting her to bed X called the home phone downstairs. 

My brother (who'd had a few) answered. I was told he said hello multiple times with no answer. He checked the caller ID and saw my name (X's phone still comes up with my name even though I'm off her account - not sure how or why), and thought I must be f'n with him and said, "fvck off" and hung up. 

I came down from D's room to find Tiger handing me the phone telling me it was X. She had called back and talked to my brother, who apologized and explained. X immediately began complaining. 

X - So you brother just told me to fvck off. 

Z - Oh? 

X - Yeah so that happened. He told me to fvck off!

Z - I have no control over what my brother does. 

X - I texted you hours ago to see if D was still up. I'd like to say Happy New Year, unless that's a problem. (I checked after. She texted 20 minutes prior to the call)

Z - I've been cooking. I haven't checked my phone. 

X - Well your brother...

Z - Would you like to speak to D? 

X - I don't know. Is anyone else in your house going to tell me to fvck off?

Z - She's not asleep yet. Do you want to talk to her?

X - yes.

I later got a text at 1:11am

X - You should probably tell your brother to not answer the phone with a fvck off. Happy New Year. 

No response needed. Sarcasm, dumping, fishing, and against my boundaries to respond to a text not about D, especially a late night one. 

The pattern then repeated - because she was mad about something I did or didn't do, she didn't call D the next day. 

It really is funny - except for punishing D for perceived slights. But I can't control that - it is what it is. And it won't get me to capitulate. 

Not anymore. I'm too busy enjoying my new life. 

I was asked if I made any resolutions. I did. 

Continue. 

T- Really, you're resolution is keep on keepin on?

Yes. Sort of. Back to the spiral. Steady, continuous, gradual progression. 

Happy New Year, TAM. 
2014 can be a great year. 
If you want it to be.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Good to hear from you Z. Happy 2014!


----------



## Lifescript

Z. Happy New Year! 

You handled all of that really well and are an inspiration.


----------



## Tron

All good Z. Happy New Year!


----------



## angelpixie

Happy New Year, Z!! Your post was great. You are handling things so well, and the way your holidays went (vs. X's) is your reward. :smthumbup:


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It's been a while since I posted an update. Things are going well.
> 
> On Christmas Eve I picked up D7 from my parents' house. She was ready to go and it went smoothly. We were invited to Tiger's parents' house - they celebrate on Christmas Eve.
> 
> It was really nice. Dinner with her whole family, some of which I met for the first time. Then gift exchange around the fire followed by play time with the kids and their new toys.
> 
> The more I observe T's mother the more I love them both. The more I observe her father the deeper my respect for him grows.
> 
> After that T and her daughter came back to my house with us. TD3 and D7 had a sleepover while T and I stayed up into the early morning wrapping and assembling gifts for them both. We then slept for a couple hours before moving to the couch - we wanted to see their faces as they came down stairs in the morning.
> 
> This was a big step. We had talked about it at length, contemplated, and talked more. I also talked to D7 about spending Christmas together beforehand. She was all for it and pointed out that their stockings were already hanging at our house.
> 
> At first I was worried about how D would react to leaving her mother for the night, but she did absolutely great. In the morning we exchanged more gifts, had breakfast together, and played until right before noon.
> 
> Then T took TD3 to her father's and I took D7 back to her mother. On the short drive she told me she had an awesome Christmas and told me how much she loves me.
> 
> When we walked into my parents' place it was a madhouse of people, as usual on the holidays. I quickly exchanged gifts with my siblings and watched as my mother received the new oven/range that my brother and I had purchased.
> 
> I gave my father a gift. He scanned the room to make sure the coast was clear and said, "I really don't want this arrangement to happen again."
> 
> Z - I don't blame ya.
> 
> During I noticed X switching from smiling at me to scowling. My brother later told me she was complaining to him about how I took D7 for Christmas Eve. Ha. Too bad.
> 
> I said goodbyes and left. I turned down offers to go see movies with family members a few times and spent the rest of the day with T. Later a few siblings stopped by for a bit.
> 
> It was actually an excellent Christmas. Better than I had hoped.
> 
> The next day I showed up at my parents' house a little before X was scheduled to leave. She had been hinting to everybody that she didn't want to take the shuttle again but, as far as I know, never came out and asked anyone for a ride. So eventually she made a reservation for the shuttle on her own.
> 
> I was there for D7s goodbyes with her mom, but was intentionally in the other room. There if D needed me, but not intruding on their moment.
> 
> Later my mother told me that D7 did much better this time with the parting than she did during the summer with me not there. This time X was in tears but D was not, though obviously not happy about her mother leaving.
> 
> After X left D asked to go home. That was new as she usually doesn't want to leave Grandma's house full of toys, sweets, and playful cousins.
> 
> The next couple days was daddy daughter decompression time. At bedtime one night she expressed unhappiness that X and I divorced. We talked about it again and she was super cuddly those days. The second day after X left we missed her nightly call by about an hour. As always when that happens I picked up the phone and asked if she wanted to call her mother back.
> 
> She almost always says yes, but this time said no. I knew the aftermath would be more troublesome than the visit and there would be a necessary adjustment period, so I did not press the issue.
> 
> Since then they've had good, long talks with each other.
> 
> Then New Years Eve. I had some family, a couple friends, and T over for some drinks, food and games. I let D stay up to see the ball drop. While I was putting her to bed X called the home phone downstairs.
> 
> My brother (who'd had a few) answered. I was told he said hello multiple times with no answer. He checked the caller ID and saw my name (X's phone still comes up with my name even though I'm off her account - not sure how or why), and thought I must be f'n with him and said, "fvck off" and hung up.
> 
> I came down from D's room to find Tiger handing me the phone telling me it was X. She had called back and talked to my brother, who apologized and explained. X immediately began complaining.
> 
> X - So you brother just told me to fvck off.
> 
> Z - Oh?
> 
> X - Yeah so that happened. He told me to fvck off!
> 
> Z - I have no control over what my brother does.
> 
> X - I texted you hours ago to see if D was still up. I'd like to say Happy New Year, unless that's a problem. (I checked after. She texted 20 minutes prior to the call)
> 
> Z - I've been cooking. I haven't checked my phone.
> 
> X - Well your brother...
> 
> Z - Would you like to speak to D?
> 
> X - I don't know. Is anyone else in your house going to tell me to fvck off?
> 
> Z - She's not asleep yet. Do you want to talk to her?
> 
> X - yes.
> 
> I later got a text at 1:11am
> 
> X - You should probably tell your brother to not answer the phone with a fvck off. Happy New Year.
> 
> No response needed. Sarcasm, dumping, fishing, and against my boundaries to respond to a text not about D, especially a late night one.
> 
> The pattern then repeated - because she was mad about something I did or didn't do, she didn't call D the next day.
> 
> It really is funny - except for punishing D for perceived slights. But I can't control that - it is what it is. And it won't get me to capitulate.
> 
> Not anymore. I'm too busy enjoying my new life.
> 
> I was asked if I made any resolutions. I did.
> 
> Continue.
> 
> T- Really, you're resolution is keep on keepin on?
> 
> Yes. Sort of. Back to the spiral. Steady, continuous, gradual progression.
> 
> Happy New Year, TAM.
> 2014 can be a great year.
> If you want it to be.


Looks like the prover is proving.

Great execution.

My only regret is that your brother got the pleasure of telling X to F off. We'd all like to do that.


----------



## Ceegee

Conrad said:


> Looks like the prover is proving.
> 
> Great execution.
> 
> My only regret is that your brother got the pleasure of telling X to F off. We'd all like to do that.


If Bullwinkle's BBQ ever happens we need to invite Z's brother and RG's cousin.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> If Bullwinkle's BBQ ever happens we need to invite Z's brother and RG's cousin.


Do you have a brother or perhaps a nephew that could butt-dial CT?


----------



## Ceegee

Ceegee said:


> If Bullwinkle's BBQ ever happens we need to invite Z's brother and RG's cousin.


And Bullwinkles sister. Can't forget her.


----------



## just got it 55

Ceegee said:


> And Bullwinkles sister. Can't forget her.


She's about 20 minutes from me 

I'll get in touch with her 

55


----------



## zillard

just got it 55 said:


> She's about 20 minutes from me
> 
> I'll get in touch with her
> 
> 55


Don't get too touchy with her. She may break your wrist.


----------



## zillard

Sometimes it's better to be strong. 
We all got to be moving on. 
You've got to walk a million miles. 
Aw honey, go walk em with a smile!

However many takes it takes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SvO-wi3inc


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Don't get too touchy with her. She may break your wrist.


I no longer fear women

But there are always exceptions 

ETA My daughters are on that fear list


----------



## Morgiana

There have been some really good unknown artists posted in this thread; thank you all for sharing and expanding my musical horizons!


----------



## zillard

Tiger's bday was near the end of this month. She expressed a desire to go see her friends in Colorado previously. After talking about it and how it wasn't likely, I surprised her and told her I was taking her there for her bday. 

We both worked out the kiddo situation and had an excellent weekend together. We stayed at her friends' in Boulder - a cool little town! We discussed taking advantage of the new freedoms in Colorado; both of us had actually looked forward to it just because we could. But we were enjoying every minute of the vacation already that a drive and wait in line no longer seemed appealing. 

We tried out restaurants like the best of foodies, stopped at cigar bars, and battled each other at pool and skeeball. We made snow angels on the walk home and lost a debit card in the process. 

In the morning I toured New Belgium Brewery with T's friends while she nursed a hangover-induced migraine. (we actually had a ****ing blast, won free sh!t, went down a slide, and had tons of free beer while learning a bunch of crap... and that really doesn't need to be in parenthesis, but is because I'm a soft-spoken recovering co-dependent). 

*Post-Recovery* We ate more delicious scrumptiousness, had bloody mary's for breakfast, bought surprises for our daughters, took a little hike into the rockies overlooking Boulder, and went to a concert. 

And then I had a problem. 

We'd all been there for a while and the headlining act was about to go on. T leaned over and said something that didn't sit right. She told me she absolutely would not dance with me as couple, because she "knows how every guy looks when they're doing that". We'd been walking arm in arm or holding hands all night. Hugging, kissing, whatever. Good time. Then out of nowhere when I wasn't even trying to dance, she's declining. 

I was already a few drinks in and it caught me off guard. So I stepped back and simply gave her space. I stood next to her friends as a third wheel. She danced alone through the set while I stood a few feet back. 

The next morning she mentioned that I was standing far away from her and she thought I took what she said personally. 

Z - I did. 

T - Oh! I didn't mean it to come off like 'don't touch me'. 

Z - It sounded like that to me. I figured you wanted to do your thing without me so I stepped back and let you do it. 

T - That's not what I meant, to be a ****. I'm so sorry.

Things have been ok, I guess, since. But I'm holding back with the random physical touches. She doesn't seem to notice. 

It struck me as odd and if not, bad timing and delivery. But it bothered me more that I let it get to me - to the point where I didn't really enjoy the rest of the concert. I even stepped outside for a bit. 

It triggered something and I can't figure what or why. Which drives me nuts.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Nah. Just a fitness test. I think she really wanted you to sweep her off her feet and dance with her.

A witty, humor response would have made the night more enjoyable. Something like: "Don't worry.... I'm not every guy". Quickly followed by an exaggerated water sprinkler dance move.

You guys would've been dirty dancing all night


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> It triggered something and I can't figure what or why. Which drives me nuts.


You could be triggering on simple (perceived) public rejection.

Had it been me, it would have been difficult for my brain to not subconsciously translate what she said as, "I don't want to be seen dancing with you, because you'll look like an idiot dancing."

I don't think she was really fitness testing you.

I think it's more likely that you two spent a long, great day together, and she may have just needed a little break from your company. She wanted to go dance on her own for a while, and was trying to give you an excuse to not feel obligated to insist on joining her anyway... but she just said it the wrong way, and you instinctively heard it the wrong way.

If she had been a little more direct about it and said something like, "I want to go dance on my own for a while with my friends. I'll be back a little later, okay?" would you have been cool with it?


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> Nah. Just a fitness test. I think she really wanted you to sweep her off her feet and dance with her.
> 
> A witty, humor response would have made the night more enjoyable. Something like: "Don't worry.... I'm not every guy". Quickly followed by an exaggerated water sprinkler dance move.
> 
> You guys would've been dirty dancing all night


I'll go a little further.

We all read Z's stuff with the same attitude inside, don't we?

Damn... if only I could find one like THAT!

And, yet.... there's the fitness test.

It's a subconscious thing about security. And, they all do it.

She's wired for survival and wants to ensure Z is man enough to protect her.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Conrad said:


> I'll go a little further.
> 
> We all read Z's stuff with the same attitude inside, don't we?
> 
> Damn... if only I could find one like THAT!
> 
> And, yet.... there's the fitness test.
> 
> It's a subconscious thing about security. And, they all do it.
> 
> She's wired for survival and wants to ensure Z is man enough to protect her.


Even the T's of the world will fitness test you. I'd have reacted same way as Z did.


----------



## vi_bride04

Is it a fitness test if she honestly didn't want Z to dance next to her?


----------



## Pbartender

vi_bride04 said:


> Is it a fitness test if she honestly didn't want Z to dance next to her?


:iagree:

To me, it sounds like she was trying to make a teasing, sarcastic joke out of the request, and it fell flat because it hit a nerve with Z.

Wanting to spend a little time on your own is not necessarily a fitness test. It can also be setting a healthy boundary. Though, in this case it may have been poorly communicated.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Conrad said:


> We all read Z's stuff with the same attitude inside, don't we?
> 
> Damn... if only I could find one like THAT!


Yep, I read it that way often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

So assuming it was a fitness test, did z respond appropriately (excusing himself for a bit, etc)?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hope4family

So what's the proper response?


----------



## Lifescript

I think the correct response is what Three Strikes suggested. Difuse it w/ humor.


----------



## Conrad

I agree with ThreeStrikes.

Keep in mind, Z did nothing to hurt himself, but handling it with humor would have had her swooning.

And, there is the risk.

He was having a perfect time. Just perfect.

And, he let his guard down.

There's just something about having your lover be your best buddy that is so intoxicating.

The fitness tests shock you back to reality.


----------



## Morgiana

Lifescript said:


> I think the correct response is what Three Strikes suggested. Difuse it w/ humor.


Sometimes the only way to win is to not play the game.


----------



## angelpixie

Fitness for what, exactly? She wants to know if Z's man enough to protect her from what? 

It seems to me to also be a poorly communicated request for space. As for how to respond? Warm humor. Something akin to what 3S posted. Might have caught her off guard enough to make her realize how she came across to Z, and they could have talked it through there and then. 

Or, even if not using humor, a direct "What do you mean by that?" would have been good. Z went back to a bit of eggshell-walking, trying to interpret what he thought she wanted him to do. It left him hurt, unsure of the situation, and has had effects afterward. 

My new mantra has been that when I feel like I shouldn't say something for fear of 'rocking the boat,' that's exactly when I *need to* say something. It has prevented many problems, and the resulting improvement in communication has been great, even though it hasn't always been easy to do.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> If she had been a little more direct about it and said something like, "I want to go dance on my own for a while with my friends. I'll be back a little later, okay?" would you have been cool with it?


Yeah, absolutely. I understand alone time and require a bit of it myself at times, so requests for it don't strike a nerve with me. We've both made them before with no problem. 

I think it was the delivery that got me. My top love languages are quality time and physical touch. So the sudden statement that she would not dance with me felt like a fvck you. Yes, PB, a perceived public rejection. 

More so because at other concerts we've danced and she enjoyed it - and told me so. But this time, in the company of her friends I'd just met, she apparently wasn't into it. I don't know if that was the reason, because she was fine showing affection in front of them otherwise - but it felt that way.


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> More so because at other concerts we've danced and she enjoyed it - and told me so. But this time, in the company of her friends I'd just met, she apparently wasn't into it. I don't know if that was the reason, because she was fine showing affection in front of them otherwise -* but it felt that way.*


And it should have, IMO.

I just know if I said something like that to my guy at a concert it would be b/c I wouldn't want to be embarrassed by him dancing next to me. Maybe friends played a part, who knows, but I don't think it was a test, I just honestly think she didn't want you around for some reason and it was communicated poorly.


----------



## just got it 55

Lifescript said:


> I think the correct response is what Three Strikes suggested. Difuse it w/ humor.


Yup :iagree: in a not so critical situation humor always works


----------



## Pbartender

So, make sure you let her know this...



zillard said:


> I think it was the delivery that got me. My top love languages are quality time and physical touch. So the sudden statement that she would not dance with me felt like a fvck you. Yes, PB, a perceived public rejection.


And then, ask why she was keen to go off dancing alone with her friends. After all...



zillard said:


> But this time, in the company of her friends I'd just met, she apparently wasn't into it.





vi_bride04 said:


> I just honestly think she didn't want you around for some reason and it was communicated poorly.


...maybe she just wanted to talk about you to her friends, whom you just met.


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> ...maybe she just wanted to talk about you to her friends, whom you just met.


No, she moved closer to the front dancing alone while I stayed with her friends.


----------



## Morgiana

Z, I think the real takeaway here for you is: Make sure and come back to her and address it. When things are calm and you both have time to talk, make sure and take care of it, don't let it fester.


----------



## BWBill

_It triggered something and I can't figure what or why. Which drives me nuts. _

I've been married 30 years and my wife still (occasionally) says things that turn a good mood bad. Sometimes what she said is inappropriate, sometimes it's just something inside of me (it's never anything important). If you have two people together it is going to happen.

W and I have both noted that alcohol is often involved, so you need to take that into account.


----------



## 06Daddio08

How are you doing Zillard?


----------



## just got it 55

Morgiana said:


> Z, I think the real takeaway here for you is: Make sure and come back to her and address it. When things are calm and you both have time to talk, make sure and take care of it, don't let it fester.


Yup Keep the resentment builders in check

The final straw kind of thing

They all add up

55


----------



## Ceegee

just got it 55 said:


> Yup Keep the resentment builders in check
> 
> 
> 
> The final straw kind of thing
> 
> 
> 
> They all add up
> 
> 
> 
> 55



A proverbial brick in Mavesh.'s wall.


----------



## just got it 55

Ceegee said:


> A proverbial brick in Mavesh.'s wall.


I miss Mav

55


----------



## Chuck71

Z..... urology gal did almost same thing to me at her work's 

Christmas party. I too though WTF? I smiled and brushed it off. 

Went out and danced myself....no I'm not a good dancer

but I caught a few eyes ..... first time one remotely inched close

to me......guess what she did? LOL I grinned as she quickly

marked her territory. Somewhere Darwin smiled


----------



## zillard

Things are going pretty well.

T's dog came down very ill and after multiple days at the vet in poor condition was put down. As a dog lover it had quite an impact on her.

I expected her to lean on me in a time of grief, but she pulled back. Mentioned a few times her dislike for people asking how she was doing. I invited her out and she declined; didn't feel like doing anything. 

It took conscious effort not to take things personally. As a fixer I felt a strong need to be needed. It's hard to see a loved one in pain and know that you aren't the solution (and hard to realize that the difficulty stems from a certain type of arrogance). But I had to remind myself that her grief has nothing to do with me and she should process in her own way. My assumptions of what that process should be are simply that - mine. 

So I told her I was here for her, ready and willing to help, and asked her to let me know when, how, and if she needed anything. Told her to call if she wanted to talk. 

And then I let it be, which wasn't easy. It was days before we spoke again. I didn't call, text or show up. I waited for her to reach out. It was difficult as the fixer part was telling me it was my job to comfort, to check in, rescue. It told me I was being insensitive. But that went against what she had shown me she needed - space. 

Later when she asked me to coffee I showed up. I let her talk about it as I listened. I invited her to a dinner with my brother for his bday. She said she'd like to but needed to check on something and would get back to me. 

Dinner time came and she hadn't. I resisted the urge to remind her and had a good time with D7 and family. She later asked me how it was and I told it was a lot of fun, but expressed disappointment that she never got back to me. That worked much better than sitting on it. 

The next day we had a really great date night. Spent time together with D7 and T the following day too. I told her that later in the afternoon I was to transport my nephew a few hours south, and told her she could come along, maybe go to dinner in the city. She expressed a desire to do so, but wasn't ready at time of departure. 

I probably could have pushed it back to accommodate, but that request wasn't made. I stopped myself from assuming that was what she wanted and left. I dropped off my nephew and stopped off to spend some time with a buddy in the area. I'm glad I did. 

As the relationship has progressed I find that I've likely become too focused on her. I previously set boundaries for X due to what I've decided is good for me, yet have not focused on same when it comes to T. More willing to budge even absent request. 

I find it takes consistent focus to remain the center of the mobile - lose focus and you start twirling around someone else's center. Start twirling and it's inevitable to look outside one's self for stability. 

Stay focused on remaining still.


----------



## Conrad

Creeping codependence.

That's why it's never really "over"

Life is about self-regulation - and staying @50k.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Creeping codependence.
> 
> That's why it's never really "over"


I do believe that. It may seem daunting, but there is a beauty in it as well. 

By acknowledging that it is a part of me, and will be, I empower myself. I know what I need to do, where I need to be vigilant. I allow myself to take responsibility for the things that happen in my life, good and bad. I can be proud and give myself credit for the good, and accept and/or change the bad.

That is much better than being clueless - feeling around in the dark. I'll stumble, but I can see the rock I'm tripping over. 

Even at night it's always darkest when you close your eyes.


----------



## Chuck71

when you fish, you toss out a float

you can't make them bite

for whatever reason, it may be best they do not


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> when you fish, you toss out a float
> 
> you can't make them bite
> 
> for whatever reason, it may be best they do not


And every time you anxiously touch that fishing pole you cause ripples. 

Work on improving your cast, but once that float is in the water let that pole be.


----------



## angelpixie

Excellent insight, Z. Gives me a lot to ponder.


----------



## zillard

Tiger mentioned that she was invited to a girl's night out on our normal date night and expressed that she was hesitant to go. 

I could have easily used that "in" and tried to convince her to spend the time with me instead. But I encouraged her to go and wished her a fun time. 

She texted while she was out, and after she returned home. Said she'd call me after XYZ if I'd still be up. I didn't feel like waiting up so cordially declined and went to bed early. 

This morning I was surprised to find her at my door with coffee, breakfast, and an offer to cook D7 and I dinner tonight. 

She mentioned that her GNO turned into a "mom's night out". I'm absolutely making an assumption about this, but I think it is good for single parents to spend time with other parents of the same sex (single and married) as it helps put our own relationships and roles into perspective. Much like TAM does. 

I know that's true for me anyway - it has helped me see through my delusion with X, and also helps me appreciate T... as is.


----------



## AFPhoenix

Z,

I started my journey almost a year after yours..actually that's not accurate, I started my journey a few years ago but I was too blind with my co-dependency and blindness to acknowledge it. I joined this amazing blog in Dec 2013. I find myself closer in personality to Bullwinkle but in reality strive to be like you. I am so thankful that I found this site. Conrad, RG, BW, and yourself have helped me more than you know. I want to congratulate you on your progression and emergence. I too hope to find myself on the other side eventually.


----------



## zillard

AFPhoenix said:


> Z,
> 
> I started my journey almost a year after yours..actually that's not accurate, I started my journey a few years ago but I was too blind with my co-dependency and blindness to acknowledge it. I joined this amazing blog in Dec 2013. I find myself closer in personality to Bullwinkle but in reality strive to be like you. I am so thankful that I found this site. Conrad, RG, BW, and yourself have helped me more than you know. I want to congratulate you on your progression and emergence. I too hope to find myself on the other side eventually.


Thanks AFP. It's good to hear that.

You will find yourself on the other side, but you'll likely be there before you really think you are.


----------



## zillard

One year ago today I filed the final decree which set me free. 

Painful at the time, I now see it as a well-earned rudis. 










Through struggle to heights.


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> One year ago today I filed the final decree which set me free.
> 
> Painful at the time, I now see it as a well-earned rudis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Through struggle to heights.


I, too, am celebrating my own personal Independence Day... One year ago today, I filed for divorce, thus declaring my independence. Exactly six months later, one day before what would have been our 15h Anniversary, the divorce was final.

So, congratulations to you, Zillard! Celebrate the occasion!

My friends will be taking me out to a Star Wars parody burlesque show tomorrow night to commemorate the date.

:smthumbup:

_Non est ad astra mollis e terris via._

"There is no easy way from the earth to the stars."


----------



## zillard

Pbartender said:


> I, too, am celebrating my own personal Independence Day... One year ago today, I filed for divorce, thus declaring my independence. Exactly six months later, one day before what would have been our 15h Anniversary, the divorce was final.
> 
> So, congratulations to you, Zillard! Celebrate the occasion!
> 
> My friends will be taking me out to a Star Wars parody burlesque show tomorrow night to commemorate the date.
> 
> :smthumbup:
> 
> _Non est ad astra mollis e terris via._
> 
> "There is no easy way from the earth to the stars."


Congrats PB! That show sounds like a blast. 

Grandma is watching kiddo tonight while I go celebrate with Tiger, my brother and a few friends. After indoor skydiving of course.


----------



## Chuck71

happy birthday..... easy to remember, was my pop's

my first was a couple weeks before yours, was no 

celebration, was still thinking Peyton would win Super Bowl

did perform the greatest form of closure with WC

face to face


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> happy birthday..... easy to remember, was my pop's
> 
> my first was a couple weeks before yours, was no
> 
> celebration, was still thinking Peyton would win Super Bowl
> 
> did perform the greatest form of closure with WC
> 
> face to face


Thanks Chuck! 

Was it a face to face F'ya letter?


----------



## Chuck71

it was at my fav Italian bistro by her invite

the tidbits are posted on C II-The Way


----------



## 06Daddio08

Have fun tonight Zillard!


----------



## angelpixie

Congrats to you, Z! An anniversary for me, too. Got my divorce from Chinless one year ago today. :smthumbup: One of the things I was going to do with friends after work was canceled, so I'll just have a nice dinner, dessert and a movie at home with DS. During my lunch hour, I participated in a flash mob against domestic and sexual violence, as I did last year. It's very meaningful to me that all of these things, including Valentine's Day, are on the same date. By the time it was over last year, I really did feel like dancing! :rofl:

(and I filed on the day before my wedding anniversary -- do I sense a theme of sorts here?  )

Enjoy your evening tonight -- you deserve it!! You've inspired and helped a lot of people here.


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> it was at my fav Italian bistro by her invite
> 
> the tidbits are posted on C II-The Way


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


>


:rofl: it was a free meal


----------



## Ceegee

Chuck71 said:


> :rofl: it was a free meal



And that wasn't the most satisfying part of the night.


----------



## zillard

About a month ago I reached out to X. In the JPA she does not have scheduled time with D8 until Mother's day, then summer vacation. Except for school holidays "when logistically possible". 

I am responsible for 25% of travel so would like to hold up my end by helping D8 get together with her mother over spring break. Honestly it would also be nice to have a spring break of my own. 

So I offered to take D8 to Vegas for a spring break exchange. That location is just a few hours drive for X, and a good vacation hub for me. 

X responded that while she would love to see D, she isn't sure what her employment situation will be at the time. 

And I've heard nothing more from her regarding this since. A few hours drive should not be considered logistically impossible, regardless of her (un)employment status. And who knows if she'll choose to take advantage of her imminent scheduled summer

Rhetorical question for myself - how long do I sit back and watch her fail to honor the JPA before I insist on a hefty modification?


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Rhetorical question for myself - how long do I sit back and watch her fail to honor the JPA before I insist on a hefty modification?


What did you have in mind?

I would think that a good 12-18 months of documentation would suffice, but ultimately it comes down to the judge. But you might be surprised. Ex may not contest you.

From 50K, it seems like your ex doesn't want to be a mother, and is happy to let you be the sole parent.


----------



## Ceegee

Not a single person reading this thread that believes she's going to take the necessary steps to see her child. 

What a freaking shame. 

Sorry Z.


----------



## vi_bride04

Ceegee said:


> Not a single person reading this thread that believes she's going to take the necessary steps to see her child.
> 
> What a freaking shame.
> 
> Sorry Z.


Pretty much.....

She acts like my ex when he was in the periods of abandoning his kids from his first wife.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> What did you have in mind?
> 
> I would think that a good 12-18 months of documentation would suffice, but ultimately it comes down to the judge. But you might be surprised. Ex may not contest you.
> 
> From 50K, it seems like your ex doesn't want to be a mother, and is happy to let you be the sole parent.


Good question. 

I am wondering if now that I have what I wanted - D8 with me, where I choose - if I'm not satisfied with the reality of the JPA or if I'm contemplating reacting out of anger over her continued abandonment. 

I would like to get the 25% travel removed, for more than one reason. She isn't holding up her end on insurance and parenting time (let's be real - visitation), and I'd like to prevent her pointing to that later to blame shift when explaining to D why she wasn't around. 

Yes, what she tells D is out of my control, but it's possible to minimize. 

And in other wishful thinking, I wonder if the threat of child support (due to the reality that we are not really co-parenting but in a sole provider situation) might just light a fire under her arse. 

On the other hand - I have D. There really isn't much travel to speak of, so does the 25% even matter? Keep saving the offers to help with transportation to prove due diligence, perhaps. 

Overall I'm very pleased with the situation. I have a somewhat uncommon problem of wanting my kid to be with my X more, a stark contrast to many here. 

But I'd be lying if I said that was all about D and her pain. It's also due to me not wanting to face the responsibility of seeing and dealing with that constantly on my own. Which leads to more resentment of X. 

We just had D's bday party last week. She really, really enjoyed herself with all the friends and family around. T and TD3 as well. But there are those unmistakable flashes of longing that come over her face at times. When I see those I want to hug her, cry, shout and rage at the same time. 

She's starting to notice and comment about how Tiger's daughter has more visitation with her father than D did with X BEFORE the move. I know that's gotta hurt something fierce. 

Anyway, one of the days when ship gets to me. It helps to write it out. 

Fvck her! What a POS.


----------



## Chuck71

modification may not even be needed at current pace, but document her responses

not as much for your attempt to gain full custody

but to keep her from saying, in 2016 you kept D from her

your X will "shoot every angle"

hopefully, one day your X will spend the time needed with D

your X and mine.... did about the similar thing.... WC is unemployed 

D will slowly realize who loves her and who does not

maybe you should visit your old town, have X see D for a weekend

yes you don't want to do this, and neither would I

but letting D know you tried all paths for her to be with her mom

will weigh heavily in her journey through her pre-teen years


----------



## BWBill

_And in other wishful thinking, I wonder if the threat of child support (due to the reality that we are not really co-parenting but in a sole provider situation) might just light a fire under her arse. _



Still trying to fix her?

The reality of the situation is that you're better off focusing on your daughter and helping her deal with the unfortunate fact that the person who bore her is simply not capable of being a mother. It's not your daughter's fault and it's not fair, but it does happen.

You're also making the assumption that your daughter is better off with more exposure to her mother. Or that somehow your own life would be easier if your x was around more. I think both of those are challengeable assumptions.

I realize that this is not fair to you either, and I sincerely apologize if this post comes off as harsh.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> Not a single person reading this thread that believes she's going to take the necessary steps to see her child.
> 
> What a freaking shame.
> 
> Sorry Z.


She didn't bother to see her BEFORE Z moved.

And, kids personalize things. If X doesn't want to see her, D will take it on herself.

Mothers are the most significant people in the world.

Pretending otherwise does no good.


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> maybe you should visit your old town, have X see D for a weekend
> 
> yes you don't want to do this, and neither would I
> 
> but letting D know you tried all paths for her to be with her mom
> 
> will weigh heavily in her journey through her pre-teen years


This is exactly what I'm trying to do by exchanging in Vegas. (X has moved from our old home town and is even closer to Vegas now). 

It would also alleviate the problems that come with my parents hosting X. 

Yes - I realize that this is fixing. When it comes to D I do not mind fixing. Which may be a problem as when that chance to fix is denied I feel the normal fixer response - resentment for not being allowed to fix.

Co-dependency is no trivial thing. I find I need reminders of that.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Co-dependency is no trivial thing. I find I need reminders of that.


...and so I create them.


----------



## zillard

BWBill said:


> _And in other wishful thinking, I wonder if the threat of child support (due to the reality that we are not really co-parenting but in a sole provider situation) might just light a fire under her arse. _
> 
> 
> 
> Still trying to fix her?
> 
> The reality of the situation is that you're better off focusing on your daughter and helping her deal with the unfortunate fact that the person who bore her is simply not capable of being a mother. It's not your daughter's fault and it's not fair, but it does happen.
> 
> You're also making the assumption that your daughter is better off with more exposure to her mother. Or that somehow your own life would be easier if your x was around more. I think both of those are challengeable assumptions.
> 
> I realize that this is not fair to you either, and I sincerely apologize if this post comes off as harsh.


Don't apologize. It's not that harsh. 

I do know her potential to taint others. But I've also personally witnessed SuperMom. Which makes witnessing abandonment that much harder. 

You made good points. Truly. My anger stems from her not even trying to challenge them. 

I really do feel that I'm on a great path toward forgiveness for what happened in our marriage (forgiving her and myself). 

D8 is a different story. My challenge now is how to accept that it will be... continually.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> It would also alleviate the problems that come with my parents hosting X.
> 
> Yes - I realize that this is fixing. When it comes to D I do not mind fixing. Which may be a problem as when that chance to fix is denied I feel the normal fixer response - resentment for not being allowed to fix.
> 
> Co-dependency is no trivial thing. I find I need reminders of that.


There's another level to it when our children are involved Zillard. At times we simply do what we need to do to make things smoother for our children.

Forget labeling it something and get it done. Then move on.


----------



## zillard

Oh boy. 

This morning D8 and I went out for Sunday breakfast. While waiting for our food she looks at me.

D - I don't understand how I can be half you and half Mom. How can I have your blood if I was never inside you. I was in Mom's belly, but not you. It just doesn't make sense to me, Dad.

Anyone have any book suggestions?


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> This morning D8 and I went out for Sunday breakfast. While waiting for our food she looks at me.
> 
> D - I don't understand how I can be half you and half Mom. How can I have your blood if I was never inside you. I was in Mom's belly, but not you. It just doesn't make sense to me, Dad.
> 
> Anyone have any book suggestions?


We watched "Look who's talking" with our kids.

Bruce Willis does a good job on it.

You watch it first just to be sure.


----------



## zillard

I'll check out the movie - haven't seen it. 

Also, when and how does a father do the menstruation talk? X claimed she had her first at 9yo.

Assuming that over the phone w/Ma isn't going to happen, any thoughts on pros/cons of Dad vs. Auntie?

Grandma is out of the question. I brought up what D said to my sis and mother. 

Ma - Just tell her. You don't have to go into detail. (With my D, I disagree. If I'm vague at all she'll keep probing until she really thinks she gets it)

Sis - What!? You never talked to any of us about that.

Ma - None of you asked.


----------



## Pam

My daughter swears by this book; she used it with both girls, and they both made the "transition" pretty seamlessly. You'd need to get it really soon, because she's getting to that age!

Amazon.com: The Care & Keeping of You eBook: Valorie Schaefer, Josee Masse: Kindle Store

eta: I didn't realize I had linked to the Kindle version, but you can find the paperback version from that url.


----------



## Morgiana

Pam said:


> My daughter swears by this book; she used it with both girls, and they both made the "transition" pretty seamlessly. You'd need to get it really soon, because she's getting to that age!
> 
> Amazon.com: The Care & Keeping of You eBook: Valorie Schaefer, Josee Masse: Kindle Store
> 
> eta: I didn't realize I had linked to the Kindle version, but you can find the paperback version from that url.


Got that book for my pre-teen as well... now if she'd only keep up with her hygiene...


----------



## Chuck71

is this what the girls were given in health class in 7th grade

when they took us guys to the gym

and handed out Marlboro and cheap Scotch coupons?


----------



## Pam

I just looked at Amazon, and apparently there is a sequel now. I don't know if my daughter bought that one; I can ask her this evening.


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> I just looked at Amazon, and apparently there is a sequel now. I don't know if my daughter bought that one; I can ask her this evening.


Thanks for the link, Pam. I bought the one for younger girls.


----------



## Pbartender

Pam said:


> My daughter swears by this book; she used it with both girls, and they both made the "transition" pretty seamlessly. You'd need to get it really soon, because she's getting to that age!
> 
> Amazon.com: The Care & Keeping of You eBook: Valorie Schaefer, Josee Masse: Kindle Store
> 
> eta: I didn't realize I had linked to the Kindle version, but you can find the paperback version from that url.


I'll add my vote to this one... The same book I got for D14 many years ago.


----------



## Pam

That book isn't going to talk about sex, according to my daughter. She bought the book for older girls, but it was published after her older daughter was past the need and she doesn't think the younger one is quite ready for it yet. Besides, she put it "away" and hasn't found it again.

She said she didn't just give the book to her girls. They read a section/few pages at a time, talked it over, then moved on to the next section/few pages. After full discussion of everything, then she gave it to them. She says she still sees it out in the younger one's (12) room every so often. The older one is 20 and in college; she has an age gap there. But she does recommend it highly.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Glad you got advice on the menstruation issue. My daughter saw me buying stuff for myself and wanted to know what it was for so I told her and as she asked more, I explained more. I'm guessing that won't work for you. 

Might want to buy a few products to have on hand.

As to being part you, you can explain that she has half your DNA - maybe point out something you can see of yourself in her - hair, eyes, toes, build, demeanor... something.

And if she wants to know how is she half you when she grew in MOM's tummy - time to explain how she got in there. But you can explain it takes a cell from mom called an egg and a cell from dad called a sperm and then the baby attaches inside the Mom to grow until it's ready to come out.

Also, if she's curious about her body, encourage her to explore. She'll need a hand mirror to find her vagina and that may come in handy when her period starts. Also, tampon boxes come with a diagram showing you how to insert and if I recall, I think it says a mirror might be needed the first time or two.

ETA and ALWAYS KNOCK. How mortifying would it be if you pop into her bedroom as she's trying to figure out where her urethra is compared to where the vagina is...


----------



## Ceegee

EnjoliWoman said:


> Glad you got advice on the menstruation issue. My daughter saw me buying stuff for myself and wanted to know what it was for so I told her and as she asked more, I explained more. I'm guessing that won't work for you.
> 
> Might want to buy a few products to have on hand.
> 
> As to being part you, you can explain that she has half your DNA - maybe point out something you can see of yourself in her - hair, eyes, toes, build, demeanor... something.
> 
> And if she wants to know how is she half you when she grew in MOM's tummy - time to explain how she got in there. But you can explain it takes a cell from mom called an egg and a cell from dad called a sperm and then the baby attaches inside the Mom to grow until it's ready to come out.
> 
> Also, if she's curious about her body, encourage her to explore. She'll need a hand mirror to find her vagina and that may come in handy when her period starts. Also, tampon boxes come with a diagram showing you how to insert and if I recall, I think it says a mirror might be needed the first time or two.
> 
> ETA and ALWAYS KNOCK. How mortifying would it be if you pop into her bedroom as she's trying to figure out where her urethra is compared to where the vagina is...


God help us single dads.


----------



## Chuck71

one could take the knowledge needed (or even after knowing)

to a book store, single dad trying to help his daughter through

"female things"....... "hi there maam" "I can't believe I am here"

"excuse me sir" "I'm a single dad and my daughter is x y/o and 

I need to find something that explains....you know...."

the single female notices, single dad.....raising daughter

wow....I wonder if........

*great chance to pick up a date*


----------



## Pbartender

Ceegee said:


> God help us single dads.


I'll tell you what... It's worse for the poor girls, than it is for us.

One of the toughest parts about moving into my own place was convincing D14 that she didn't have to be embarrassed to ask her dad to buy her more tampons, because she ran out. 

If you can be confident and unashamed of what you're talking about, they'll quickly follow suit and it'll be no big deal.


----------



## Pam

When I was a kid, I made every step my grandfather made, if he let me. We were in Louisiana at a huge family reunion; I had to ask him to take me to the little local store because.. and I told him. He showed no embarrassment, he was totally calm, and we went to a lot more family reunions. Several of his sisters were there and I could easily have gone to any of them, but I trusted him. And he earned that trust every single day. I still miss him so much, and he's been gone for years and years..


----------



## zillard

Thank you all for your help. 

That day I contacted X as an FYI. She told me the women in her Mom Group (really?) had a book they all liked and she would look it up. 

Nothing yet, and she's missed their scheduled 5pm call every night since.

Meanwhile the book I ordered should arrive today. The products and mirror are a good idea to have on hand. Maybe she'll remember me buying the stuff for her Ma? 

So far I'm the one pushing privacy, not her. She'd walk around naked or in her underwear all day if I let her. I have to remind her about walking in front of windows, closing bathroom door, etc. I don't shy from talking to her about the importance of cleaning, wiping, underwear changes, etc. We had a UTI scare recently and I took her in to get tested and we talked a bit with the nurse together. Anyway, I do think she feels comfortable.


----------



## Chuck71

I used to be bad about waltzing around naked

until I was about nine, but mom was SAHM or

just worked while I was in school

there isn't as much importance placed on this if you are a male

I don't think mom would have come close to allowing this

if I were a female


----------



## Pbartender

zillard said:


> So far I'm the one pushing privacy, not her. She'd walk around naked or in her underwear all day if I let her. I have to remind her about walking in front of windows, closing bathroom door, etc.


That just goes to show she's not old enough to worry about it, because the changes haven't happened yet.

Give her a few years... When you suddenly notice that she's not quite so cavalier about gallivanting around the house in her undies, then you'll know it's time for "the talk".


----------



## Chuck71

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


----------



## zillard

Yeah, well I don't want a Carrie situation. The menstruation talk at least needs to happen before menstruation.


----------



## vi_bride04

I started when I was 10. Luckily I had sex ed through school a few months before. Still freaked me out. My mom never talked to me about it and I was pretty scared going to the bathroom and seeing a bunch of blood on my underwear. Even though I knew what it was, it was still freaky. Then embarrassing when I had to ask for a pad. 

I never used tampons until I was in my 20s. They freaked me out. But then again, my mom didn't get ones with applicators. If you are going to go that route, make sure to get ones with applicators! Pads are easier but can be prone to leaks until you get used to where to place them. Which would be mortifying to happen at school. 

Have fun, Z!


----------



## Chuck71

sex ed isn't in the state curriculum

lets you know about school systems

the same ****bags who vote on curriculums are.......

yeah, take a guess


----------



## GutPunch

Mom group? lol


----------



## Pam

X is in a Mom Group? Don't you wonder what she talks about? She has to make it all up as she goes. Hopefully she won't forget the gender of this imaginary child.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Mom did NOT have the talk with sister and she started at school around age 13 and freaked out. Thought she was dying and had internal bleeding, etc. Mom didn't talk to me, either but by then I knew because of Mom and Sis. Plus I read Mom's medical books when I had a question about my body.

So I made sure to talk to my kiddo openly and early on. They did learn about it at school which is good for kids who would otherwise get caught by surprise. Each year they have to go and each year the topics are expanded from puberty until gradually it includes sex ed.


----------



## Conrad

Pam said:


> X is in a Mom Group? Don't you wonder what she talks about? She has to make it all up as she goes. Hopefully she won't forget the gender of this imaginary child.


Pam,

I literally laughed out loud on this one.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> Pam,
> 
> I literally laughed out loud on this one.


you weren't the only one


----------



## Pam

I'm just not into kindness and loving feelings for a mother who can't be bothered to see her child but belongs to a "mom group". That's an oxymoron if I ever saw one. If I wasn't a Southern Lady, I'd have a few more choice phrases.

Glad I gave y'all a little chuckle, though.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Pam, you're not the only one. I can imagine my Ex doing something similar. They (parents that would leave their kids, not just women) are master manipulators and can lead any group (moms group or other) to believe whatever half truths or outright lies they feel buys them vindication or validation of their choices. IE: "I don't have my daughter right now because my ex moved away and took my daughter with him. Unfortunately (with tears in eyes) my divorce decree wasn't strong enough to put a stop to it. Boo hoo woah is me". Oohs and awwwws and "we're so sorry you're going through this" follow, and they feel better for a time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

TheGoodGuy said:


> Pam, you're not the only one. I can imagine my Ex doing something similar. They (parents that would leave their kids, not just women) are master manipulators and can lead any group (moms group or other) to believe whatever half truths or outright lies they feel buys them vindication or validation of their choices. IE: "I don't have my daughter right now because my ex moved away and took my daughter with him. Unfortunately (with tears in eyes) my divorce decree wasn't strong enough to put a stop to it. Boo hoo woah is me". Oohs and awwwws and "we're so sorry you're going through this" follow, and they feel better for a time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


good bet that group thinks Z is a bipolar meth head

she is in hiding, in fear of him and D8 is staying with family

out of state. I could see my X doing the same thing....

calling me a delusional psychopath bent on eradicating

the world of technology. She'd play the kid card too...

she is 48 and could still pass for being seven months preggy


----------



## Conrad

Chuck71 said:


> good bet that group thinks Z is a bipolar meth head
> 
> she is in hiding, in fear of him and D8 is staying with family
> 
> out of state. I could see my X doing the same thing....
> 
> calling me a delusional psychopath bent on eradicating
> 
> the world of technology. She'd play the kid card too...
> 
> she is 48 and could still pass for being seven months preggy


All the better to Cork that Window.


----------



## Ceegee

Chuck71 said:


> good bet that group thinks Z is a bipolar meth head
> 
> 
> 
> she is in hiding, in fear of him and D8 is staying with family
> 
> 
> 
> out of state. I could see my X doing the same thing....
> 
> 
> 
> calling me a delusional psychopath bent on eradicating
> 
> 
> 
> the world of technology. She'd play the kid card too...
> 
> 
> 
> she is 48 and could still pass for being seven months preggy



Let her have her group. 

Maybe it will her some good.


----------



## Chuck71

Conrad said:


> All the better to Cork that Window.


industrial size window caulking gun


----------



## zillard

...assuming she's not talking about the online Mom group she was in 4 years ago and likely hasn't participated in since. 

Friday now. Still no 5pm call this week. We missed a call that she made at 7pm (the old scheduled time). D8 has tried to call her - nothing but voicemail. 

D8 decided to take pictures of her bedroom and playroom to send to her. No response.


----------



## zillard

Oh, and X finally decided to unfriend Tiger on FB.


----------



## GutPunch

No calls huh. Probably too occupied with her mom group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Oh, and X finally decided to unfriend Tiger on FB.


Maybe close to hitting bottom finally?


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Oh, and X finally decided to unfriend Tiger on FB.




I'm sure she's helping Ringo rotate the tires on dat truck


----------



## zillard

X is finally talking to D again, so that's good. 

Today she texted: That book is called "the care and keeping of you". It's for girls 8 and up. 

Z - Thanks. I have it.


----------



## zillard

I had a hiccup with T. 

Without giving too much detail, she acted on an assumption she made. Due to my expectations of how a girlfriend should behave and show respect for her boyfriend, and how I receive love, I felt disappointed and mildly embarrassed at a public event of high importance to me. 

Later she contacted me and I told her I felt disappointed and embarrassed. 

She apologized and asked for clarification, so I explained. And she didn't respond. Next day, no contact. I called that night as usual and when she failed to pick up I texted informing her that I wanted to talk. 

All day today with nothing. Finally a text asking if I was going to meditation tonight. I confirmed that I am and asked if she will be going. 

Yeah, I think so. 

We'll see if she shows. Regardless, I will enjoy meditation. 

The point is, I'm working on not bottling and making an attempt to talk about my feelings as they happen. It seems to have possibly rubbed her the wrong way. While that is unfortunate, I am glad that I did so. 

And I'm not ok with the lack of communication afterward. The next time we talk I will be going into that.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I had a hiccup with T.
> 
> Without giving too much detail, she acted on an assumption she made. Due to my expectations of how a girlfriend should behave and show respect for her boyfriend, and how I receive love, I felt disappointed and mildly embarrassed at a public event of high importance to me.
> 
> Later she contacted me and I told her I felt disappointed and embarrassed.
> 
> She apologized and asked for clarification, so I explained. And she didn't respond. Next day, no contact. I called that night as usual and when she failed to pick up I texted informing her that I wanted to talk.
> 
> All day today with nothing. Finally a text asking if I was going to meditation tonight. I confirmed that I am and asked if she will be going.
> 
> Yeah, I think so.
> 
> We'll see if she shows. Regardless, I will enjoy meditation.
> 
> The point is, I'm working on not bottling and making an attempt to talk about my feelings as they happen. It seems to have possibly rubbed her the wrong way. While that is unfortunate, I am glad that I did so.
> 
> And I'm not ok with the lack of communication afterward. The next time we talk I will be going into that.


I was ok with what she did UNTIL you said you wanted to talk - and then no response.

That sucks.

And, should be discussed as well.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I was ok with what she did UNTIL you said you wanted to talk - and then no response.
> 
> That sucks.
> 
> And, should be discussed as well.


Yes, right now that is the biggest issue as she has already apologized for what happened at the event, showed concern and asked for clarification, which is good.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yes, right now that is the biggest issue as she has already apologized for what happened at the event, showed concern and asked for clarification, which is good.


Yes, the silence is troubling. I can see remaining quiet if you both needed space, but you ASKED to talk. And, you still got the cold shoulder.

So easy to lapse into "old behaviors" at that point and start chasing.

Respect is responding to that - even with an "I'm not ready yet"


----------



## zillard

She let me know she can't make it tonight. I let her know that I appreciate her doing so and asked her to call me later tonight. She agreed. 

That's much better.


----------



## zillard

Making assumptions, not communicating, and taking things personally can cause a small thing to escalate sooo quickly. 

I think we both can improve on all three. When we talk I need to focus on my part, without blaming. 

Basically I need to effectively communicate that I am feeling unsatisfied and observe to see if she is willing to help me with that.


----------



## Pam

I'm glad you were able to say "yeah, I have that book already". Yep, I'm ahead of you, and ready to be a parent to my daughter.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> I had a hiccup with T.
> 
> Without giving too much detail, she acted on an assumption she made. Due to my expectations of how a girlfriend should behave and show respect for her boyfriend, and how I receive love, I felt disappointed and mildly embarrassed at a public event of high importance to me.
> 
> Later she contacted me and I told her I felt disappointed and embarrassed.
> 
> She apologized and asked for clarification, so I explained. And she didn't respond. Next day, no contact. I called that night as usual and when she failed to pick up I texted informing her that I wanted to talk.
> 
> All day today with nothing. Finally a text asking if I was going to meditation tonight. I confirmed that I am and asked if she will be going.
> 
> Yeah, I think so.
> 
> We'll see if she shows. Regardless, I will enjoy meditation.
> 
> The point is, I'm working on not bottling and making an attempt to talk about my feelings as they happen. It seems to have possibly rubbed her the wrong way. While that is unfortunate, I am glad that I did so.
> 
> And I'm not ok with the lack of communication afterward. The next time we talk I will be going into that.


anytime you see the words female and assumed together

break out those five inch heels

it's time to wade through some chit

your execution was solid, you stated your concern

she showed sympathy, cast your line and... wait

both of you are going the best way

no blame game, those are endless urinating contests

when T feels you may be outside her comfort zone

she will search you out


----------



## zillard

All is well. She took the word embarrassed different than intended and was insulted and therefore angry. I didn't see her as an embarrassment, I was embarrassed because I couldn't present myself along with her, my other half. The event was important to me - and I wanted her to be by my side because she is very important to me as well.

She has agreed to tell me when she is mad, rather than give me the cold shoulder. If I know she is mad and doesn't want to talk, I can stop running circles in my brain assuming the worst and simply give her time.

I apologized for making assumptions based on expectations that I did not communicate with her, and for taking things personally when those assumptions failed. As did she.

I figured the time was right and brought up another grievance, which we quickly sorted out. She asked for me to be a little less rigid, and I asked for her to be a little more expressive. 

And while she was giving me the cold shoulder she found an item I have wanted for a while and purchased as a gift (one of her primary love languages). 

Hiccups happen and should not be avoided. While T is not perfect, I do applaud her and am grateful that I am with someone that can hold their own, despite misinterpretations and hard feelings. 

God, I love her. And I know she does me (I did make her say it first though).


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> I'm glad you were able to say "yeah, I have that book already". Yep, I'm ahead of you, and ready to be a parent to my daughter.


With the help of TAM. Thank you. 

Btw - This conversation happened at 4pm. I told X that D now returns home from school earlier because one of her after school programs was cancelled. So if 4 works better than the previously agreed upon 5pm, that was cool.

So she called at 6:45pm and I didn't answer.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Aw I'm so reassured there are grown-ups out there who TALK to one another even after a misunderstanding and can get past that after resolving things.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Aw I'm so reassured there are grown-ups out there who TALK to one another even after a misunderstanding and can get past that after resolving things.


There are. We both agreed that if the initial conversation after the event had been face to face or over the telephone, everything would have been fine. 

When hurt feelings are involved and it's not with an X - TALK - text is lazy and rife with negative potential.


----------



## zillard

Dating after divorce is a very tricky balance. Even more so when you're a full time parent. More difficult still when your partner is also a divorced parent. 

While the feelings are obvious, priority and time tends to limit availability to a significant extent. This can be very challenging when you highly value quality time. 

If you rise to 50,000 feet you can see what appears to be two people dancing around each other. That looks discouraging. But if you remain still and keep looking you see that both are revolving around separate centers, their children. The rotation slows down and pauses when the orbits bring them into contact, yet it doesn't happen very often. 

This is very different from the concept of family that many of us repeat in our minds - two revolving around a one in unison. It looks difficult. It looks less satisfying and in some ways both is true. Yet at the same time there is beauty as both agree on the importance of that which they revolve around even with different orbits. 

They are separate. Yet I think it possible to bring them both closer together and align the rotating parents more frequently in the process. 

I hope so.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

IMO, it's better than traditional marriage, and the idealistic image of 'family'.

Society is changing.


----------



## Morgiana

zillard said:


> If you rise to 50,000 feet you can see what appears to be two people dancing around each other. That looks discouraging. But if you remain still and keep looking you see that both are revolving around separate centers, their children. The rotation slows down and pauses when the orbits bring them into contact, yet it doesn't happen very often.
> 
> This is very different from the concept of family that many of us repeat in our minds - two revolving around a one in unison. It looks difficult. It looks less satisfying and in some ways both is true. Yet at the same time there is beauty as both agree on the importance of that which they revolve around even with different orbits.


I think this in a nutshell is marriage or a ltr, not just marriage with kids. It's about making time for someone else special to you, not just dropping all sense of self. The definition of how much time, what kind of activities you fill that time with, and what rules you agree on to spend your alone time doing are the basis of every intimate relationship.


----------



## zillard

It's difficult to not cling to assumptions when events interfere with those rare opportunities for time together. 

It helps when, even though the time is severely limited, you can see an effort being made. Yet easy to take it personally when you don't.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

ThreeStrikes said:


> IMO, it's better than traditional marriage, and the idealistic image of 'family'.
> 
> Society is changing.


To each their own I guess TS. I like the idealistic image of family, because it's all I've ever had. I suppose I'll have to be mindful of that in choosing my next partner, and not choose just to get the "ideal" back.


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> To each their own I guess TS. I like the idealistic image of family, because it's all I've ever had. I suppose I'll have to be mindful of that in choosing my next partner, and not choose just to get the "ideal" back.


I can see pros and cons of both. 

When I'm in love I want to share my life with the person. I like waking up next to my queen. And going to bed together. Sharing meals, etc. Finances and child care can make a more traditional family unit beneficial for all. 

But having your own space, running your own household as you see fit, is much easier than compromising preferences daily. Spending too much time together increases opportunities for irritation and resentment. 

And no doubt, if/when a break happens the fallout would be greatly reduced with separate households. 

But a greater level of commitment provides the possibility of greater satisfaction. A deeper connection, though in ways more difficult to maintain. 

I think it highly depends on the individuals and their circumstances. Success rate stats for second marriages and blended families are not encouraging, though certainly not set in stone either. 

Someone here in LAD about a year ago posted the idea of living together, yet apart, in a duplex. Equality and independence with the benefits of close living quarters. I quietly scoffed at the time but can see the idea in a different light now.


----------



## Chuck71

the way I view marriage now and when I was 25 are as different as 

night and day. Skeptical, cynical, disillusioned, critical

something like my view of Kirby Puckett

the star of the Minnesota Twins, an everyfan's favorite

took less money to stay on a marginal team and 

gave the Twins two World Series wins

after he retired, it was uncovered he beat his wife, cheated

with other women in mall parking lots, groped women at bars,

urinated in front of children, spent $$ on hookers... but frugal

with his kids. As I grew up I had heroes such as Puckett

in the end..... it was all an illusion.... just like my 1st marriage


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> I can see pros and cons of both.
> 
> When I'm in love I want to share my life with the person. I like waking up next to my queen. And going to bed together. Sharing meals, etc. Finances and child care can make a more traditional family unit beneficial for all.
> 
> But having your own space, running your own household as you see fit, is much easier than compromising preferences daily. Spending too much time together increases opportunities for irritation and resentment.
> 
> And no doubt, if/when a break happens the fallout would be greatly reduced with separate households.
> 
> But a greater level of commitment provides the possibility of greater satisfaction. A deeper connection, though in ways more difficult to maintain.
> 
> I think it highly depends on the individuals and their circumstances. Success rate stats for second marriages and blended families are not encouraging, though certainly not set in stone either.
> 
> Someone here in LAD about a year ago posted the idea of living together, yet apart, in a duplex. Equality and independence with the benefits of close living quarters. I quietly scoffed at the time but can see the idea in a different light now.


Well said, exactly what was on my mind with my short comment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Chuck71 said:


> the way I view marriage now and when I was 25 are as different as
> 
> night and day. Skeptical, cynical, disillusioned, critical
> 
> something like my view of Kirby Puckett
> 
> the star of the Minnesota Twins, an everyfan's favorite
> 
> took less money to stay on a marginal team and
> 
> gave the Twins two World Series wins
> 
> after he retired, it was uncovered he beat his wife, cheated
> 
> with other women in mall parking lots, groped women at bars,
> 
> urinated in front of children, spent $$ on hookers... but frugal
> 
> with his kids. As I grew up I had heroes such as Puckett
> 
> in the end..... it was all an illusion.... just like my 1st marriage


Amazing how different the contents of a book can be compared with its cover.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Some wisdom from de'Mello and observations of myself after reading. Enjoy. 

The reason you suffer from your depression and your anxieties is that you identify with them. You say, "I'm depressed". But that is false. You are not depressed. If you want to be accurate, you might say, "I am experiencing a depression right now". But you can hardly say, "I am depressed". You are not your depression. That is but a strange kind of tuck of the mind, a strange kind of illusion. 

You have deluded yourself into thinking - though you are not aware of it - that you ARE your depression, that you ARE your anxiety, that you ARE your joy or the thrills that you have. "I am delighted!" You certainly are not delighted. Delight may be IN you right now, but wait around, it will change. It won't last: it never lasts; it keeps changing; it's always changing. Clouds come and go: some of them are black and some white, some of them are large, others small. If we want to follow the analogy, you would be the sky, observing the clouds. You are a passive, detached observer. That's shocking, particularly to someone in the Western culture. You're not interfering. Don't interfere. Don't ''fix'' anything. Watch! Observe! The trouble with people is that they're busy fixing things they don't even understand. We're always fixing things, aren't we? It never strikes us that things don't need to be fixed. They really don't. This is a great illumination. 

They need to be understood.

- Awarness, Anthony de'Mello

When I am feeling anxious and/or depressed it is difficult not to blame others for my own situation and my own reactions to irrelevant situations. By accepting that it simply is, will pass (more quickly with effort), and is not who I am but rather something that I am experiencing, I can step back and observe myself and see that I cause many of my own troubles by seeing my discomfort from an unhealthy perspective.

It's incredibly challenging for me to maintain a state of self awareness while feeling anxious. The mind races, assumptions are made, blame is shifted, and focus is placed on a myriad of issues that belong to others. I see gaps in the behavior of those around me and take it upon myself to fix; not out of compassion but due to an arrogant desire to mold the world around me in order to ease my own suffering without looking inward to find peace and accept things as they are. If we can reach a state of self acceptance and a truly compassionate desire to understand others without fixing then we can prevent the Hulk from appearing and smashing things. At times I can and it is wonderful. Other times I fail and must apologize.

The Hulk can manifest itself in many different ways, be it aggression, passive aggressiveness, or self destructive behavior. The anger cycle illustrates this well. We feel injured from an outside source. We either choose to bottle the emotions or lash out immediately. Explode or implode. If we bottle we eventually lash out anyway, often disproportionately to the perceived slight. Temporarily this feels good as it releases our emotions. Eventually we realize that it was the Hulk reacting and we feel guilt. We deal with the guilt by initiating a honeymoon phase where we overcompensate with a disproportionate act of kindness. This can tend to leave us feeling resentful as it ignores the feelings of discomfort we had in the beginning. And then the cycle repeats itself. 

The best place to stop the anger cycle is at the moment of discomfort - through compassionate, respectful communication (be it internal or external).


----------



## Conrad

Z - no way to like it enough.

Taking ownership of your pos tendencies is your ticket to freedom.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> That's shocking, particularly to someone in the Western culture.


My current GF is from Singapore, and a Buddhist. The difference in life perspective is astounding, when compared to the American "way of life".

I love it


----------



## Chuck71

ownership is the general key

I try to teach this but framed as different setting

students write "SED (severe emotionally disturbed) children......."

red mark, should be "students with SED"

one step at a time....


----------



## angelpixie

zillard said:


> I can see pros and cons of both.
> 
> When I'm in love I want to share my life with the person. I like waking up next to my queen. And going to bed together. Sharing meals, etc. Finances and child care can make a more traditional family unit beneficial for all.
> 
> But having your own space, running your own household as you see fit, is much easier than compromising preferences daily. Spending too much time together increases opportunities for irritation and resentment.
> 
> And no doubt, if/when a break happens the fallout would be greatly reduced with separate households.
> 
> But a greater level of commitment provides the possibility of greater satisfaction. A deeper connection, though in ways more difficult to maintain.
> 
> I think it highly depends on the individuals and their circumstances. Success rate stats for second marriages and blended families are not encouraging, though certainly not set in stone either.


This is very well put, Z. I've also found myself thinking some of the very same things you wrote about dating and relationships being so different this time around, especially when it comes to the dating partners both being parents. There's no way it can be the same as when you were single people with no kids, just starting out, thinking about pooling your resources, starting a family, etc. You already have people you're looking out for. I think sometimes couples create more problems when they try to fit themselves into that role they played before they got married the first time. It just doesn't fit anymore; it can't. Not if you really make parenting a priority. It's just different. Sometimes it's much harder, and you feel like you're sacrificing a big part of your own happiness, but you learn to work with it the best you can -- especially if being a parent and being a partner are both important. You just find a way.



zillard said:


> Someone here in LAD about a year ago posted the idea of living together, yet apart, in a duplex. Equality and independence with the benefits of close living quarters. I quietly scoffed at the time but can see the idea in a different light now.


That would be me.  Maybe I should design a community of some kind. :rofl:


----------



## zillard

angelpixie said:


> This is very well put, Z. I've also found myself thinking some of the very same things you wrote about dating and relationships being so different this time around, especially when it comes to the dating partners both being parents. There's no way it can be the same as when you were single people with no kids, just starting out, thinking about pooling your resources, starting a family, etc. You already have people you're looking out for. I think sometimes couples create more problems when they try to fit themselves into that role they played before they got married the first time. It just doesn't fit anymore; it can't. Not if you really make parenting a priority. It's just different. Sometimes it's much harder, and you feel like you're sacrificing a big part of your own happiness, but you learn to work with it the best you can -- especially if being a parent and being a partner are both important. You just find a way.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be me.  Maybe I should design a community of some kind. :rofl:


And you thought nobody was listening. I was... just took a year and multiple challenges to sink in. 

That's usually the case with us men, yeah?  

Love ya.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Maybe I'm just a bit pollyanna but I still think it's possible.  I want that, the big compromises, the big rewards, all of it.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

EnjoliWoman said:


> Maybe I'm just a bit pollyanna but I still think it's possible.  I want that, the big compromises, the big rewards, all of it.


I can't like or agree with you more EW. I'm just selfish like that.


----------



## zillard

Tomorrow is 2 weeks until D8's Spring Break. X has not taken me up on my offer to transport D8 to her vicinity for that week. 

JPA clause says arrangements must be made at least 14 days in advance. 

Tomorrow my offer is null and void and I will plan something cool for D and submit some PTO. 

---

X will likely respond at last minute and it will be all my fault when I say no. As it was, so it is.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Tomorrow is 2 weeks until D8's Spring Break. X has not taken me up on my offer to transport D8 to her vicinity for that week.
> 
> JPA clause says arrangements must be made at least 14 days in advance.
> 
> Tomorrow my offer is null and void and I will plan something cool for D and submit some PTO.
> 
> ---
> 
> X will likely respond at last minute and it will be all my fault when I say no. As it was, so it is.


Nothing changes but the date.


----------



## Ceegee

Same same here, Z. 

Coming up on deadline for X to submit her request for her weekend this summer. 

Last year I reminded her 3 times and she never sent me her request. 

9 months later she complains she never got her time and is going to try to use it against me in court next month. 

Divorced for 6 months and still clings to the drama but ignores the facts.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Same same here, Z.
> 
> Coming up on deadline for X to submit her request for her weekend this summer.
> 
> Last year I reminded her 3 times and she never sent me her request.
> 
> 9 months later she complains she never got her time and is going to try to use it against me in court next month.
> 
> Divorced for 6 months and still clings to the drama but ignores the facts.


If I SMH every time it happens, how soon before I have the neck of a linebacker?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> If I SMH every time it happens, how soon before I have the neck of a linebacker?



This is what we have to learn. 

Expectations and how to plan. 

I hope same thing happens this year but my situation is different than yours. 

For you I see no other alternative than to level set D8's expectations. In a kind, caring, loving way of course. 

Each visit with her mom will be a surprise. No schedule. No expectation. No disappointment.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Each visit with her mom will be a surprise. No schedule. No expectation. No disappointment.


Yup. That's what I do. She doesn't know about alternating holidays, summer time, etc. 

If it happens, cool. 
If not, she wasn't expecting it. 
If she asks why she doesn't see Ma, that's a question for Ma.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> This is what we have to learn.
> 
> Expectations and how to plan.
> 
> I hope same thing happens this year but my situation is different than yours.
> 
> For you I see no other alternative than to level set D8's expectations. In a kind, caring, loving way of course.
> 
> Each visit with her mom will be a surprise. No schedule. No expectation. No disappointment.


But at least he isn't going to have to put up with the Christmas B.S. like last year.

That was perfectly done.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> But at least he isn't going to have to put up with the Christmas B.S. like last year.
> 
> That was perfectly done.


My mother recently brought this up again. 

Admitted it was something she needed to learn and reaffirmed that she is not comfortable with her staying at their house - my father especially.

(he probably got the brunt of his wife's frustration)


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> My mother recently brought this up again.
> 
> Admitted it was something she needed to learn and reaffirmed that she is not comfortable with her staying at their house - my father especially.
> 
> (he probably got the brunt of his wife's frustration)


Ya think?


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> My mother recently brought this up again.
> 
> Admitted it was something she needed to learn and reaffirmed that she is not comfortable with her staying at their house - my father especially.
> 
> (he probably got the brunt of his wife's frustration)


Again...
Hello Mcfly!:lol:
My mom is a raving communist but she is my mom.
It can be fun pushing buttons though, just a little.
We both have our limits but push.


----------



## zillard

The universe is pretty fd up at times. 

In the AM I broke it off with T, who didn't say much. 
In the PM X reached out and said a bunch. 

wth.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> The universe is pretty fd up at times.
> 
> In the AM I broke it off with T, who didn't say much.
> In the PM X reached out and said a bunch.
> 
> wth.


I was going to post I would like to be a fly on the wall when they spoke,but I thought it would be in bad taste.

WTH indeed :scratchhead:

55


----------



## Tron

Very sorry to hear that things didn't work out with T.

As for the ex...are things not working out with Ringo? Surprised?


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Very sorry to hear that things didn't work out with T.
> 
> As for the ex...are things not working out with Ringo? Surprised?


Thanks. 

Supposedly she ditched him a bit ago - suspected a hidden habit, which was why she didn't want D to come there. 

Loves me, ****ed up in the past, regrets divorce, thinks it would be better a second go round but realizes that ship has probably sailed.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> The universe is pretty fd up at times.
> 
> In the AM I broke it off with T, who didn't say much.
> In the PM X reached out and said a bunch.
> 
> wth.


I'd have her out to kick the tires.

Actually, even though it's not alpha, I'd go there - so D won't get confused.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I'd have her out to kick the tires.
> 
> Actually, even though it's not alpha, I'd go there - so D won't get confused.


I told her it was good to talk and we should again. 

No rush for any type of meet. 

Even if we can get back to consistently friendly, that's better for all of us.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Supposedly she ditched him a bit ago - suspected a hidden habit, which was why she didn't want D to come there.
> 
> Loves me, ****ed up in the past, regrets divorce, thinks it would be better a second go round but realizes that ship has probably sailed.


Wow talk about timing. I like Conrad's suggestion in kicking the tires take your time.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> Supposedly she ditched him a bit ago - suspected a hidden habit


That was a deal breaker for her??? :scratchhead:




zillard said:


> Loves me, ****ed up in the past, regrets divorce, thinks it would be better a second go round but realizes that ship has probably sailed.


Ugh. Not sure what to say...

...hope you have some Maalox in the house.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I told her it was good to talk and we should again.
> 
> No rush for any type of meet.
> 
> Even if we can get back to consistently friendly, that's better for all of us.


Brother,

You've been without for 5-6 weeks, and you know it's good.

No rush, but keep it in mind.

I'm certain it would be white hot.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Conrad said:


> Brother,
> 
> You've been without for 5-6 weeks, and you know it's good.
> 
> No rush, but keep it in mind.
> 
> I'm certain it would be white hot.


Gross!!! 

Z could you really lower yourself to sleeping with the ex??


----------



## Conrad

vi_bride04 said:


> Gross!!!
> 
> Z could you really lower yourself to sleeping with the ex??


His situation wasn't the same as yours.

And, this is the mother of his child.

IF… there is something to salvage, it could be worth a look.

Now, if Tiger had stuck to her knitting and not flaked out?

Then hell no.

But, there is something in time and space that we don't see.

She throws herself at him the AFTERNOON of the breakup?

Life is weird.

If you're aware, you can go with the flow. As long as it doesn't screw with D's head, I'm certain Z can handle this.. IF HE WANTS TO.

His choice.


----------



## vi_bride04

Why would z want to sleep with someone who is willing to abandon their kid? That's such a lowering of standards from how far he has come progress wise. 

She has shown no actions to indicate her character has changed. Why would z want anything to do with that, esp after just standing up for himself so much with T?

I just see sleeping with his ex as a giant setback for him.


----------



## zillard

Hardtohandle had a lot of good things to say in the OSF thread about this very thing. 

We all have issues. I know X has PTSD. Many things she did during and after breakup can be explained by that. Before moving I was considering staying around, but set boundaries on what she'd have to show me so we could work through it together as a team. 

She was nowhere near ready. Reaching out and openly communicating about feelings is something she absolutely would not do.

Now she is taking initiative to reach out and be open, knowing full well it may lead nowhere. 

I recognize that as a bit step for her. Is that step enough to R? Certainly not. 

I will not be sleeping with anyone for a while.


----------



## Conrad

vi_bride04 said:


> Why would z want to sleep with someone who is willing to abandon their kid? That's such a lowering of standards from how far he has come progress wise.
> 
> She has shown no actions to indicate her character has changed. Why would z want anything to do with that, esp after just standing up for himself so much with T?
> 
> I just see sleeping with his ex as a giant setback for him.


And, I see him at a crossroads in his life where all options are available to him.

If a reunion with the mother of his child is possible, this is the time to find out.

And, speaking as a stepfather - with the recent example of Tiger's flame-out - I can assure Zillard that no woman will ever care for Z's child in the way that he does.., but his X is the one who actually has the potential to do so.

My wife is a stepmother who has been fantastic for my kids. But, she doesn't look at them like Z looks at his. That's not a character flaw on her part, that's a cold hard fact.

Z is now awake.

A brief reunion with her just to confirm there's no point in pursuing something larger wouldn't hurt him one bit.

And…. if there is a point?

All the better for everyone.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> The universe is pretty fd up at times.
> 
> In the AM I broke it off with T, who didn't say much.
> In the PM X reached out and said a bunch.
> 
> wth.


That is not surprising.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Hardtohandle had a lot of good things to say in the OSF thread about this very thing.
> 
> We all have issues. I know X has PTSD. Many things she did during and after breakup can be explained by that. Before moving I was considering staying around, but set boundaries on what she'd have to show me so we could work through it together as a team.
> 
> She was nowhere near ready. Reaching out and openly communicating about feelings is something she absolutely would not do.
> 
> Now she is taking initiative to reach out and be open, knowing full well it may lead nowhere.
> 
> I recognize that as a bit step for her. Is that step enough to R? Certainly not.
> 
> I will not be sleeping with anyone for a while.


I'm doing this real-time.

It's not for the faint of heart

I dealt with PTSD just this afternoon.

Fun times.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

vi_bride04 said:


> Why would z want to sleep with someone who is willing to abandon their kid? That's such a lowering of standards from how far he has come progress wise.
> 
> She has shown no actions to indicate her character has changed. Why would z want anything to do with that, esp after just standing up for himself so much with T?
> 
> I just see sleeping with his ex as a giant setback for him.


I am in agreement with Vi on this. I wouldnt touch this with a 10ft pole.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I'm doing this real-time.
> 
> It's not for the faint of heart
> 
> I dealt with PTSD just this afternoon.
> 
> Fun times.


X and I went about 9 years before I saw the kind of boundary pushing I saw with T before 1. 

I think that's worthy of note.


----------



## hope4family

vi_bride04 said:


> *Why would z want to sleep with someone who is willing to abandon their kid?* That's such a lowering of standards from how far he has come progress wise.
> 
> She has shown no actions to indicate her character has changed. Why would z want anything to do with that, esp after just standing up for himself so much with T?
> 
> I just see sleeping with his ex as a giant setback for him.


Why indeed? The answer is it depends on a lot of things. You can't make a general statement not knowing the context for the full story, two individuals, and their own chemistry. 

His wife for better or worse has faced the consequences of near abandoning her child.

Personally I will repeat what Conrad says. If there is anyone who can love Z's child as much as he obviously does. It would be his ex-wife. Anyone else would be close, but never truly 100%.


----------



## hope4family

Z if it is within you to find grace to bury the past if she will work and commit to the future then there is a chance. Your ex will just need to commit to do heavy lifting as well. 

I hope what's best for you and your child man. You don't have to do a thing, just observe.


----------



## just got it 55

vi_bride04 said:


> Why would z want to sleep with someone who is willing to abandon their kid? That's such a lowering of standards from how far he has come progress wise.
> 
> She has shown no actions to indicate her character has changed. Why would z want anything to do with that, esp after just standing up for himself so much with T?
> 
> I just see sleeping with his ex as a giant setback for him.


Very very hard to argue with.

55


----------



## just got it 55

hope4family said:


> Z if it is within you to find grace to bury the past if she will work and commit to the future then there is a chance. Your ex will just need to commit to do heavy lifting as well.
> 
> I hope what's best for you and your child man. You don't have to do a thing, just observe.


I am happy for Z in whatever makes him happy

But let's not get ahead of ourselves here 

55


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Why indeed? The answer is it depends on a lot of things. You can't make a general statement not knowing the context for the full story, two individuals, and their own chemistry.
> 
> His wife for better or worse has faced the consequences of near abandoning her child.
> 
> Personally I will repeat what Conrad says. If there is anyone who can love Z's child as much as he obviously does. It would be his ex-wife. Anyone else would be close, but never truly 100%.


Many mothers would fight tooth and nail with their X to keep the kid. Many for bad reasons, no matter if it was better for the kid or not. 

X doesn't question my quality as a father while highly questioning her ability to be a mother. In joint sessions the therapist highlighted the fact that she felt she was saving her daughter by letting me take her - and did her best to combat that with her.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X and I went about 9 years before I saw the kind of boundary pushing I saw with T before 1.
> 
> I think that's worthy of note.


Now THAT is some serious observation.

Bravo Z.


----------



## zillard

just got it 55 said:


> But let's not get ahead of ourselves here


Noooooo. 

No flinging doors open. 

Good discussion on the porch.


----------



## hope4family

just got it 55 said:


> I am happy for Z in whatever makes him happy
> 
> But let's not get ahead of ourselves here
> 
> 55


Sorry I don't think he hears the bells of happy ending. 

When I say "if it is within him" I mean that it is likely not. I can imagine all the hurt, heartbreak, sadness, disappointment, and even anger he would have to let go to allow his ex a seat by him and his daughter at his home. 

It is far off, not close, it is a long shot, but it is a shot. He knows, he cannot rescue her and be the knight yet again. So he has to find the strength, to cautiously, with some form of trust slowly talk to his ex and see if she is willing to put in the work. 

After that, it's still up to him to let all that other hurt go. 

The only thing that works for his ex is that there is no other woman who can love his child as he does. On a mans note if his ex "does it for him" chemistry wise. That is a second consideration, but nowhere near is important as her potential red flags.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> Sorry I don't think he hears the bells of happy ending.
> 
> When I say "if it is within him" I mean that it is likely not. I can imagine all the hurt, heartbreak, sadness, disappointment, and even anger he would have to let go to allow his ex a seat by him and his daughter at his home.
> 
> It is far off, not close, it is a long shot, but it is a shot. He knows, he cannot rescue her and be the knight yet again. So he has to find the strength, to cautiously, with some form of trust slowly talk to his ex and see if she is willing to put in the work.
> 
> After that, it's still up to him to let all that other hurt go.
> 
> The only thing that works for his ex is that there is no other woman who can love his child as he does. On a mans note if his ex "does it for him" chemistry wise. That is a second consideration, but nowhere near is important as her potential red flags.


agreed. Except the last line. 

The flags are real.


----------



## familyfirst09

ok for some reason I am not getting notifications that you've updated your thread, how are you doing?? What did I miss??


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> ok for some reason I am not getting notifications that you've updated your thread, how are you doing?? What did I miss??


Oof. A lot!

Excellent ~year with Tiger until serious boundary issues. New house, D8 is doing great. Dumped Tiger and same day X reached out, single again, so we're talking.


----------



## familyfirst09

Well I was able to read abit and kind of thought things with Tiger went down hill, so sorry to hear!!

So talking with the ex...in what way.....could that be something you would be willing to explore again??


----------



## zillard

familyfirst09 said:


> Well I was able to read abit and kind of thought things with Tiger went down hill, so sorry to hear!!
> 
> So talking with the ex...in what way.....could that be something you would be willing to explore again??


My stance with X, while I'm single, is the same as it was before. 

She would have to show me a lot to convince me. Open communication is a first step.


----------



## familyfirst09

I have no doubt whatsoever that if anyone knows how to navigate this type of situation it would be you. 

Glad to hear D is doing great! And the new house too!! Hopefully I will start getting notifications again now!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> Loves me, ****ed up in the past, regrets divorce, thinks it would be better a second go round but realizes that ship has probably sailed.


I just noticed...this wasn't exactly up to par with your normal "photographic memory". 


For whatever reason I always felt a lot of sympathy for your X and hoped for her sake and your D's, that she could get herself turned around. So far, nothing but a source of anger and disappointment.

You've had a pretty good bead on her throughout the past year or so. Where do you suppose she is headed? 

BTW...You can't fix her.  Had to get that in.


----------



## Chuck71

Had X and I had a child, things would have been viewed a lot different.

Z same thing happened to me when 1st and 2nd love found out I

was D, just in reverse. I hope you view her opening as more of a mother

than a spouse first. If her repeated cycle relapses, your daughter will be 

scarred. But if by some strange way, she can be a mother.... maybe

there would be something between the two of you in the future.

Getting a sniff of her snatch can go two ways, it can reignite something

or help you realize, it's not the same anymore. The latter I realized

with 2nd love. It felt like a knife to the chest.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Z,

Are you looking for a mother for your kid? Or a life partner....

Are you looking for someone to rescue? One conversation with X and you're putting on your armor?

Dude, your break-up with T has your brain addled.

My advice: live alone for a while. You jumped from X to T with very little alone time. Focus on you, your work, and your kid. 

Date/meet multiple women. Have some fun. 

From what you've portrayed of your ex-wife, she has zero redeeming qualities. If she wants a relationship with her daughter, that's between her and her daughter. Let her make the effort. Let her pay for a trip out to visit. Let her show initiative.

BTW, my wager is that Ringo is still hanging around. Why would you believe what she *says?*


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> The universe is pretty fd up at times.
> 
> In the AM I broke it off with T, who didn't say much.
> In the PM X reached out and said a bunch.
> 
> wth.


I don't think it's f'd up at all.

I think it's doing exactly what it's supposed to.

You've done the work and made yourself a happier, healthier person and are now seeing the benefits.

You enforced boundaries - very important ones - that led to releasing T.

You've made yourself more attractive in the eyes of X. 

If she can win you back with her actions, what's wrong with that?

It would be a long process with very tough odds. 

This isn't a decision that requires a yes or no answer.

As long as you're continuing working on yourself you will can have a lot more faith in any decisions you make in the future.


----------



## vi_bride04

Is there any way your ex would have seen your status change on FB? That reach out could be more than just a strange "coincidence"

And I agree with 3strikes 100%. Take some time for yourself, you need it.


----------



## tom67

Ceegee said:


> I don't think it's f'd up at all.
> 
> I think it's doing exactly what it's supposed to.
> 
> You've done the work and made yourself a happier, healthier person and are now seeing the benefits.
> 
> You enforced boundaries - very important ones - that led to releasing T.
> 
> You've made yourself more attractive in the eyes of X.
> 
> If she can win you back with her actions, what's wrong with that?
> 
> It would be a long process with very tough odds.
> 
> This isn't a decision that requires a yes or no answer.
> 
> As long as you're continuing working on yourself you will can have a lot more faith in any decisions you make in the future.


He hit that out of the ball park.
Totally agree.
No rush because she and anyone else will be on YOUR time table.


----------



## Chuck71

was the day she contacted you of any significance?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> was the day she contacted you of any significance?


Not for her, as far as I know. For me it was the day I broke off with T. They are not friends on FB and I have her blocked.

Nobody is rushing anywhere. 

Still in talks with T anyway after she reached out. No rush back there either. 

Tiiiiii'iii'ii'iimme is on my siideee. Yes it is!


----------



## Chuck71

one could always log in under Gertrude Gumbo and if you do not 

have high restrictions on FB....she may have known. The day she 

contacted you..... was the date special for either of you. Women

are experts on dates. WC asked me to meet her right at the one 

year ann. of our D (great day lol) and my 2nd love, asked to be

friended 22 years to the day we met. If I'm not mistaken, your X

in her correct mindset, is extremely intelligent


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> This isn't a decision that requires a yes or no answer.


I completely agree.

She took the opportunity to ask if I was still planning on taking D8 to her for spring break. I told her that it's not likely this late in the game. 

She calmly replied that she understands and let me know she is planning summer time with her. 

Previously she would have gone Hulk and I'd have heard nothing about summer until I asked. Accepting and not lashing out is progress in her behavior. Following through on summer parent time is yet to be seen.


----------



## just got it 55

Ceegee said:


> I don't think it's f'd up at all.
> 
> I think it's doing exactly what it's supposed to.
> 
> You've done the work and made yourself a happier, healthier person and are now seeing the benefits.
> 
> You enforced boundaries - very important ones - that led to releasing T.
> 
> You've made yourself more attractive in the eyes of X.
> 
> If she can win you back with her actions, what's wrong with that?
> 
> It would be a long process with very tough odds.
> 
> This isn't a decision that requires a yes or no answer.
> 
> As long as you're continuing working on yourself you will can have a lot more faith in any decisions you make in the future.


Ceegee It would take alot of courage on Z's part to even try.

And the negative impact on his baby girl can not be overstated if it all turns to sh!t even 5 years down the road

This is a very tough call.

ZEEE do you have that in you ?

55


----------



## zillard

just got it 55 said:


> Ceegee It would take alot of courage on Z's part to even try.
> 
> And the negative impact on his baby girl can not be overstated if it all turns to sh!t even 5 years down the road
> 
> This is a very tough call.
> 
> ZEEE do you have that in you ?
> 
> 55


Under the right circumstances. Currently they are not.

Doesn't hurt to continue talking and observe. 

Same goes for T, though it would be much easier for T to convince me than X. Even with the biological mother thing. 

Meanwhile single is a good seat from which to observe.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Meanwhile single is a good seat from which to observe.


And expand your options


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> She took the opportunity to ask if I was still planning on taking D8 to her for spring break. I told her that it's not likely this late in the game.
> 
> She calmly replied that she understands and let me know she is planning summer time with her.
> 
> Previously she would have gone Hulk and I'd have heard nothing about summer until I asked. Accepting and not lashing out is progress in her behavior. Following through on summer parent time is yet to be seen.


It sounds different.

Time will tell.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> She took the opportunity to ask if I was still planning on taking D8 to her for spring break. I told her that it's not likely this late in the game.


How do you feel about it?


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> How do you feel about it?


I thought about it, but don't want to. I gave her plenty of time to accept it and doing so now would show her that if she just says nice things I'll cave. 

An offer to do the same for their next scheduled visitation would be better - stand firm this time yet give her another opportunity.


----------



## Chuck71

Asia Only time will tell - YouTube

I'd like to have GP comment.....it would be great to see you, GP

and Group (WTF are you azzhole) mend the fences. I was lucky 

not to have kids...I'm happy to take the black sheep. I am aware

the power of a child. It may very well end my stay with urology gal.

But what I seek in life is....what I seek. Wrong time? Yeah, I'd say 

so. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Simply observe the 

landscape. Keep in back of mind the date, there's something 

about it. Diane Arbus or not???


----------



## GutPunch

I'm with Zillard....He's got plenty of time. Whatever he decides at this point of the juncture is the right decision to me. He's got awareness.


----------



## zillard

"IM flaky and I don't always follow through with things. It's not intentional, I just don't see these things as a big deal."

Z - basically I interpret flakiness with no communication as lack of interest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> "IM flaky and I don't always follow through with things. It's not intentional, I just don't see these things as a big deal."
> 
> Z - basically I interpret flakiness with no communication as lack of interest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


30 days plus of a lack of interest.

This wasn't just like a bad day.


----------



## zillard

Z - Individually these aren't a big deal. All together they feel like one.

Ball back to her. 

Do I believe that it wasn't a big deal to her when I cancelled the sleepover? Not for one minute. She even referred to it as "my boyfriend's mad at me again for something". 

And that is a single instance, not a month's worth.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Z - Individually these aren't a big deal. All together they feel like one.
> 
> Ball back to her.
> 
> Do I believe that it wasn't a big deal to her when I cancelled the sleepover? Not for one minute. She even referred to it as "my boyfriend's mad at me again for something".


But, was there an effort to get to the bottom of it?

How many "talks" did you have over that month?

I know of at least 4 separate occasions.


----------



## Conrad

On a personal note... and I think this is part of overcoming codependence, but I see it here as in my own life.

My wife is a bright light. When she's invigorated, her written correspondence is chock full of exclamation points and her mind races... I find her adorable.

In times when we've struggled, I've seen that energy directed at others. Without self-regulation, that sort of thing creates that gnaw in your gut that will not let go.

We saw that here. Facebook invites with immediate "likes" from the direction of that energy.

That stuff really sucks. It's supposed to be for us and they're simply too distracted to send it our way. Really now...


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> But, was there an effort to get to the bottom of it?
> 
> How many "talks" did you have over that month?
> 
> I know of at least 4 separate occasions.


We did. I asked to talk. I called. I told her to call me. And we had multiple discussions. 

Z - I'm unsatisfied with the amount of time we spend together
Z - If you're upset, please don't give me the cold shoulder. Talk to me, even if it's to say you don't want to talk
Z - that concerns me
Z - I'm feeling uncomfortable about ...
Z - Things have felt too off lately

Other end: crickets


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> We did. I asked to talk. I called. I told her to call me. And we had multiple discussions.
> 
> Z - I'm unsatisfied with the amount of time we spend together
> Z - If you're upset, please don't give me the cold shoulder. Talk to me, even if it's to say you don't want to talk
> Z - that concerns me
> Z - I'm feeling uncomfortable about ...
> Z - Things have felt too off lately
> 
> Other end: crickets


I realize all that together sounds needy. Letting it go and blowing her off possibly could have generated more interest. 

But in relationship I must be able to communicate what I'm feeling. I can't bottle anymore. Trying to find the middle of pos/communicator/doormat.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I realize all that together sounds needy. Letting it go and blowing her off possibly could have generated more interest.
> 
> 
> 
> But in relationship I must be able to communicate what I'm feeling. I can't bottle anymore. Trying to find the middle of pos/communicator/doormat.



I don't see any of that as needy. 

You expressed your feelings. They went ignored so you instituted the consequences of a one-sided relationship. 

Prolonged talk like this without consequence is needy.

ETA- blowing it off would have built up resentment. Bricks in the wall. You've been there and done that. Doesn't work.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> I don't see any of that as needy.
> 
> You expressed your feelings. They went ignored so you instituted the consequences of a one-sided relationship.
> 
> Prolonged talk like this without consequence is needy.
> 
> ETA- blowing it off would have built up resentment. Bricks in the wall. You've been there and done that. Doesn't work.


Recently we emailed about it a bit. I pointed out her crap - blowing off date night, standing me up, dodging kisses, not returning calls etc. 

She didn't argue with any of it. 

From her end it now boils down to: these things aren't a big deal and I'm overreacting and abandoning her because I over-analyze. 

I do analyze - often too much. She doesn't enough.

Back to our values and boundaries not aligning.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Recently we emailed about it a bit. I pointed out her crap - blowing off date night, standing me up, dodging kisses, not returning calls etc.
> 
> She didn't argue with any of it.
> 
> From her end it now boils down to: these things aren't a big deal and I'm overreacting and abandoning her because I over-analyze.
> 
> I do analyze - often too much. She doesn't enough.
> 
> Back to our values and boundaries not aligning.


Dismissing our SO's feelings is hurtful.

Ruins everything about a relationship; trust, security, etc.

Hard to believe T would do that after all we had heard about her.


----------



## zillard

Even after all this she still has not called me once. Not since the call last wednesday to invite me to dinner that she then cancelled via text. 

Things are very clear to me.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> I don't see any of that as needy.
> 
> You expressed your feelings. They went ignored so you instituted the consequences of a one-sided relationship.
> 
> Prolonged talk like this without consequence is needy.
> 
> ETA- blowing it off would have built up resentment. Bricks in the wall. You've been there and done that. Doesn't work.


I "talked" until I was blue in the face about inconsiderate behavior, boyfriends and the like for years on end.

Got me nowhere - except I got an honorary Board of Directors seat from the company that makes Zantac.


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> Dismissing our SO's feelings is hurtful.
> 
> Ruins everything about a relationship; trust, security, etc.
> 
> Hard to believe T would do that after all we had heard about her.


It was time to walk the walk.

Judging the feelings of others is very hurtful.

They are entitled to them.

What they're not entitled to do is subject you to angry outbursts.


----------



## zillard

Texted with X for a while last night. 

She was very introspective. Admitted her POS and PTSD tendencies. Reaffirmed that she still feels keeping away from D is better for D as she is still unstable, yet progressing. Praised me as a father. 

Talked about some of the issues she is currently having yet made sure I was aware she just wanted someone to listen, not fishing for my white knight to come out and fix, and thanked me for listening.

It was good communication. 

She asked why I was being so nice all of a sudden. Asked me to be direct with her. I told her I'm happier, have observed myself being an arse in general when I'm upset, and I don't want to be upset anymore. 

Just about sums it up.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> Texted with X for a while last night.
> 
> She was very introspective. Admitted her POS and PTSD tendencies. Reaffirmed that she still feels keeping away from D is better for D as she is still unstable, yet progressing. Praised me as a father.
> 
> Talked about some of the issues she is currently having yet made sure I was aware she just wanted someone to listen, not fishing for my white knight to come out and fix, and thanked me for listening.
> 
> It was good communication.
> 
> She asked why I was being so nice all of a sudden. Asked me to be direct with her. I told her I'm happier, have observed myself being an arse in general when I'm upset, and I don't want to be upset anymore.
> 
> Just about sums it up.


Different.

Refreshing.

There's hope for her yet.


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Different.
> 
> Refreshing.
> 
> There's hope for her yet.


I've yet to meet anyone for whom there isn't.

BUT... it's up to them.


----------



## Chuck71

the one who loves least, controls the relationship


----------



## zillard

Observation without analysis is simply gazing.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Observation without analysis is simply gazing.


Couple of words about X - from someone whose SO isn't an X, but roughly at the same stage of enlightenment.

The PTSD is the real turd in the punch bowl.

When we start talking about accountability, the "best it gets" is 50/50 (in her mind). Of course, everybody plays a role in all dysfunction, so I simply agree with 50/50. We rarely go granular on how it all got started.

But, we had a different kind of discussion this week. And, it was enormously positive in many respects. We discussed parenting and enabling behavior towards children (yes, this does feel like Sherman's march to the sea at times), but we ran aground when she lamented that we were adversaries in our own home and that she was disappointed that we fought so much.

My response, "I had no idea it would be that way. Totally unexpected." (what happens when you don't observe)

She asked, "What did I do that would make you think I was your adversary?"

I looked up and said, "I think the chatter about alternate endings (to our relationship) that included the men in your inner circle was extremely hurtful and adversarial"

SO... YOU'RE GOING TO PIN ALL OUR FIGHTING ON ME!!!!!!!!

With this, she rises to her feet...

"I cannot believe you are doing this!"

You asked a question and I answered it.

"Yes, but how could you do that with all I've been through recently!!!!"

"I don't like where this conversation is heading"

She leaves the restaurant.. returns to throw a 20 on the table because she invited me, I stuff it back in her hand and tell her where to stick it - twice.

We haven't spoken much the last two days.

The PTSD is what gets that huge reaction. It was an emotional hateful outburst... spurred by the idea that accountability for the "unstable home" was on her.

I can see how she might think I was saying that, but I took the bait and participated for YEARS.... and I'm dreadfully sorry I wasn't a better man.

Mavash explained to me that PTSD types expect harsh punishment for mistakes.... overwhelming harsh punishment... like abusive parent/child harsh punishment. Their emotional centers flare with danger and fight/flight.

She did both.

I didn't put up with it.

I won't put up with it.

But, I do understand it.

**************************
Back to Z's situation....

Down the road, X may say many things you were sure you would never hear. She may take plenty of blame for "past mistakes"

It's likely, however, that "in the moment", you'll get a reaction like the above.

It's amazingly difficult to overcome that sort of internal emotional response.


----------



## Conrad

I'm also starting to wonder if T isn't a bit more like this than we first realized.

She's not explosive, but she is clearly not stepping up here to admit anything.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Back to Z's situation....
> 
> Down the road, X may say many things you were sure you would never hear. She may take plenty of blame for "past mistakes"
> 
> It's likely, however, that "in the moment", you'll get a reaction like the above.
> 
> It's amazingly difficult to overcome that sort of internal emotional response.


I don't doubt that one bit. Just as my fixer absolutely will surface at times. 

Who we are doesn't change. How we handle ourselves can.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I'm also starting to wonder if T isn't a bit more like this than we first realized.
> 
> She's not explosive, but she is clearly not stepping up here to admit anything.


I was just thinking the same thing. 

I started lowering my foot. She withdrew.

I put it down. How dare you abandon us. Your red flags are crazy. 

I explained. Ok, but that shouldn't be a big deal. You analyzing everything is exhausting.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I was just thinking the same thing.
> 
> I started lowering my foot. She withdrew.
> 
> I put it down. How dare you abandon us. Your red flags are crazy.
> 
> I explained. Ok, but that shouldn't be a big deal. You analyzing everything is exhausting.


Yet, there was no doubt where her emotional energy and resources (financial and otherwise) were being directed.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Yet, there was no doubt where her emotional energy and resources (financial and otherwise) were being directed.


I bet having a very analytical SO is exhausting. You can't get away with BS.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I bet having a very analytical SO is exhausting. You can't get away with BS.


Only if you're full of BS.


----------



## just got it 55

I very much respect my wife for calling me out for my POS tendencies

Wish she would do it more

But she is getting there because I do it now and never did before

Makes for a better relationship

55


----------



## zillard

just got it 55 said:


> I very much respect my wife for calling me out for my POS tendencies
> 
> Wish she would do it more
> 
> But she is getting there because I do it now and never did before
> 
> Makes for a better relationship
> 
> 55


Yeah, T would do the same with me and I loved it. When it comes to my behavior she doesn't tip toe. It's good to have the perspective of your SO. 

Unfortunately she apparently can't take criticism well as we became incredibly distance once I started doing the same. 

That doesn't work for me. I must be able to speak up and still be respected.


----------



## Tron

zillard said:


> Unfortunately she apparently can't take criticism well as we became incredibly distance once I started doing the same.


Damn! Wondering if it this is a problem all women have or just ours. :scratchhead:


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Yeah, T would do the same with me and I loved it. When it comes to my behavior she doesn't tip toe. It's good to have the perspective of your SO.
> 
> Unfortunately she apparently can't take criticism well as we became incredibly distance once I started doing the same.
> 
> That doesn't work for me. I must be able to speak up and still be respected.


Three R's of Relationships

Respect

Reciprocity

Responsibility

No honey, it's not "different" when you do it.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Conrad said:


> Three R's of Relationships
> 
> Respect
> 
> Reciprocity
> 
> *Responsibility*
> 
> No honey, it's not "different" when you do it.


There was a great post here about responsibility. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: Found it

*My Responsibility

I am responsible for my relationship to you
I am responsible for the way I see you
I am responsible for letting you see the inner me
I am responsible for correcting false images of me that I give to you
I am responsible for my judgments of you

I am responsible for my understanding of what you say and do
I am responsible for any hurts I allow myself to feel about you
I am responsible for any desire of needs I feel toward you
I am responsible for frustrations of my desires or needs toward you
I am responsible for any hostility I allow myself to feel toward you

I am responsible because I choose to be responsible
I am responsible because it gives me pleasure
I am responsible because it gives me control
I am responsible because it gives me freedom
I am responsible because it gives me relaxation

I choose not to be responsible for your relationship to me
I choose not to be responsible for your communications to me
I choose not to be responsible for such impossibilities
For if I should choose to feel responsible for your happiness
Then I would feel guilty about your unhappiness
And if I should try to make you responsible for my unhappiness
Then I would feel responsible for your misery about my unhappiness

When I am responsible and know it, I am free
When I am responsible and don't know it, I'm still responsible
And therefore, since I am responsible anyway,
I choose to be aware of the blessing of being responsible

What a pleasure it is to know the freedom and power of my responsibility
For responsibility is love in motion
And responsibility is the toast of one soul to another

- Author Unknown*


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> Damn! Wondering if it this is a problem all women have or just ours. :scratchhead:


Ha. Had a good chat with my ma. 

MA- I don't understand women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> Ha. Had a good chat with my ma.
> 
> MA- I don't understand women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Z- you've been married fifty years ma. What would you do if dad basically ignored you for a month? 

Ma- I'd be gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Z- you've been married fifty years ma. What would you do if dad basically ignored you for a month?
> 
> Ma- I'd be gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Uhhh yeaaa!:slap:


----------



## zillard

In her first email post breakup, T said after our talk two weeks ago, she had no intentions to go to the concert with OSF. 

You'd think she might want to tell her concerned boyfriend about that. 

A. She was too distracted to tell me
B. She's full of it and back pedaling
C. Both are lame


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> In her first email post breakup, T said after our talk two weeks ago, she had no intentions to go to the concert with OSF.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd think she might want to tell her concerned boyfriend about that.
> 
> 
> 
> A. She was too distracted to tell me
> 
> B. She's full of it and back pedaling
> 
> C. Both are lame



D. Cake eating


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> Damn! Wondering if it this is a problem all women have or just ours. :scratchhead:


Let's just say testimony varies widely on this one.


----------



## zillard

Nothing from T. Can't help but check. 

Coming here helps when I get the urge to reach out. What if she's so afraid of conflict, being disappointing due to her overbearing father, where when anything was wrong it was someone mad at her, that she can't speak out, any criticism = mad... . 

(mostly conjecture, but ya know)

Then after typing I can remind myself that even if that's the case, it's only future suffering unless she wants to tackle that crap head on... for herself.


----------



## zillard

Restless night so far. I'm familiar with the different stages of detachment and grief though, so it's no surprise. 

Quick switches between denial, anger, and desire to bargain. 

I thought of the coffee shop, where T said she knew I had an issue but was hoping I would come around, with the last two words trailing off like she changed her mind about saying it. 

Then the following email telling me she never had any intention of going to the concert. 

Still, it doesn't add up.


----------



## catcalls

Hi Z,

sorry to hear that it is not working out with T. But atleast you stuck to your boundaries and did not cave in because of fear of losing her or offending her. that is great.

I really think you should not be looking towards X now. She might say a few right things, but that woman is very damaged. Dont take on this project again.

It strikes me that you both X and T are women you have known for a long while and perhaps it is time to broaden your circle a bit. you have come back home to family and old friends and there is a lot of comfort in that. But perhaps you need to meet women you have no history with. Good luck


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Restless night so far. I'm familiar with the different stages of detachment and grief though, so it's no surprise.
> 
> Quick switches between denial, anger, and desire to bargain.
> 
> I thought of the coffee shop, where T said she knew I had an issue but was hoping I would come around, with the last two words trailing off like she changed her mind about saying it.
> 
> Then the following email telling me she never had any intention of going to the concert.
> 
> Still, it doesn't add up.


"Hoping you would come around" is consistent with her actions.

Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.


----------



## Chuck71

as Ernie Hudson said in Congo, "there's many levels of dead here (Zaire)"
there are several levels of being over with many females

observe, analyze, grow

as Yogi Berra says, "it ain't over till it's over"


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> "Hoping you would come around" is consistent with her actions.
> 
> Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.


How true.


----------



## tom67

Chuck71 said:


> as Ernie Hudson said in Congo, "there's many levels of dead here (Zaire)"
> there are several levels of being over with many females
> 
> observe, analyze, grow
> 
> as Yogi Berra says, "it ain't over till it's over"


As my mom once said...
I couldn't remember what I forgot.
Just can't make this stuff up.


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> How true.


Actions:

Pulled back while reaching to others.
Told me guy was pushy, then changed story.
Let me think she was going, then changed story.
Posted on FB, then removed it.

It does add up, her words just don't.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Actions:
> 
> Pulled back while reaching to others.
> Told me guy was pushy, then changed story.
> Let me think she was going, then changed story.
> Posted on FB, then removed it.
> 
> It does add up, her words just don't.


ZEE There is your answer Lil Bro

There must be a mathematical equation for this 

She seems in conflict with herself

55


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Actions:
> 
> Pulled back while reaching to others.
> Told me guy was pushy, then changed story.
> Let me think she was going, then changed story.
> Posted on FB, then removed it.
> 
> It does add up, her words just don't.


When people show you who they are, believe them.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Actions:
> 
> Pulled back while reaching to others.
> Told me guy was pushy, then changed story.
> Let me think she was going, then changed story.
> Posted on FB, then removed it.
> 
> It does add up, her words just don't.


Except I seem to remember her saying something like "I'm flakey".


----------



## zillard

catcalls said:


> Hi Z,
> 
> sorry to hear that it is not working out with T. But atleast you stuck to your boundaries and did not cave in because of fear of losing her or offending her. that is great.


Thank you. I think she overestimated my attachment to her (vs love for her) and underestimated my boundaries. 

It was strange to be the dumper instead of the dumpee. I underestimated the guilt that comes along with it when you truly care about the person. 



catcalls said:


> I really think you should not be looking towards X now. She might say a few right things, but that woman is very damaged. Dont take on this project again.


We talked about intentions and we just want to be friendly for everyone's sake. It's already improving the co-parenting. 

I took the spring break trip off the table. She reacted well this time, instead of exploding or going dark on D8. So I offered to do the trip, but for the next visitation and she was appreciative. 

This is much better than it has been the last year, so I will continue. Your warning is heard loud and clear though.



catcalls said:


> It strikes me that you both X and T are women you have known for a long while and perhaps it is time to broaden your circle a bit. you have come back home to family and old friends and there is a lot of comfort in that. But perhaps you need to meet women you have no history with. Good luck


This is a great observation and suggestion. Thanks


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Thank you. I think she overestimated my attachment to her (vs love for her) and underestimated my boundaries.
> 
> It was strange to be the dumper instead of the dumpee. I underestimated the guilt that comes along with it when you truly care about the person.
> 
> 
> 
> We talked about intentions and we just want to be friendly for everyone's sake. It's already improving the co-parenting.
> 
> I took the spring break trip off the table. She reacted well this time, instead of exploding or going dark on D8. So I offered to do the trip, but for the next visitation and she was appreciative.
> 
> This is much better than it has been the last year, so I will continue. Your warning is heard loud and clear though.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great observation and suggestion. Thanks


I believe you were a bit of a forum pioneer into the Meetup scene back where you were living.

May be time for a look where you are now.


----------



## Conrad

ThreeStrikes said:


> Except I seem to remember her saying something like "I'm flakey".


Conrad's golden rule:

People do that which they wish to do.

We seek some deep meaning for so much, and there simply isn't.

She wanted to do these things. And, she figured Zillard would go along and take her crap.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> Except I seem to remember her saying something like "I'm flakey".


haha. 

10 minutes late to dinner
don't call back right away
forget something

those are flaky things that aren't a big deal.

stand up your SO
have a hard time and pull away
don't answer calls when upset
dodge kisses
go to a different town than disclosed

those are flaky things that can be a big deal, if not discussed

While all of the above is happening, setting up a date with an OSF isn't flaky, it's a different level.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Conrad's golden rule:
> 
> People do that which they wish to do.
> 
> We seek some deep meaning for so much, and there simply isn't.
> 
> She wanted to do these things. And, she figured Zillard would go along and take her crap.


It was a drawn out attempt to manipulate me.

It backfired.


----------



## AFPhoenix

I'm sorry that things with T didn't work out. I admire your growth and self awareness. I am working on my own self realization.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> I believe you were a bit of a forum pioneer into the Meetup scene back where you were living.
> 
> May be time for a look where you are now.


If there aren't any groups here, I can always start one. 

Also, the meditation group has a nice variety of good people with a shared interest.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> It was a drawn out attempt to manipulate me.
> 
> It backfired.


Some boundary pushing that turned into a shix test.

You passed.

Now, she's upset.


----------



## zillard

AFPhoenix said:


> I'm sorry that things with T didn't work out. I admire your growth and self awareness. I am working on my own self realization.


Thanks AFP, I appreciate that. 

Looking inward is extremely difficult, but well worth it! Best of luck on your journey.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Some boundary pushing that turned into a shix test.
> 
> You passed.
> 
> Now, she's upset.


Sux for her now.
Let's see if she gets her head defogged.
That's assuming Z doesn't have a harem by then.


----------



## zillard

Some good news. 

My previous boss from my current employer has brought me on at his new company on a freelance basis. 

A few extra projects a week to keep me busy, and extra money doesn't hurt. 

Plus a previous client from my old location reached out for some work. Good reason to get my silk screen equipment set up in the new garage and throw some ink around with D8.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Z - 

I have always been good about looking inward except while with X - that was when I 'dodged' myself. 

But I have never been good at being in tune with my body. Like when some people go vegan or organic and say how much better they feel? I can't really tell a difference in how I feel vs. what I eat. Or how energized they feel after a workout? I don't really feel any different.

I'm wondering if I'm just not very good at listening to my body, not my mind. Have you found meditation to have any positive effects in tuning your mind to your body's frequency? I'm curious about it and wondering if that would benefit me. I think I would make better choices if I were able to 'listen' to it.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Some good news.
> 
> My previous boss from my current employer has brought me on at his new company on a freelance basis.
> 
> A few extra projects a week to keep me busy, and extra money doesn't hurt.
> 
> Plus a previous client from my old location reached out for some work. Good reason to get my silk screen equipment set up in the new garage and throw some ink around with D8.


Silver linings...


----------



## just got it 55

EnjoliWoman said:


> Z -
> 
> I have always been good about looking inward except while with X - that was when I 'dodged' myself.
> 
> But I have never been good at being in tune with my body. Like when some people go vegan or organic and say how much better they feel? I can't really tell a difference in how I feel vs. what I eat. Or how energized they feel after a workout? I don't really feel any different.
> 
> I'm wondering if I'm just not very good at listening to my body, not my mind. Have you found meditation to have any positive effects in tuning your mind to your body's frequency? I'm curious about it and wondering if that would benefit me. I think I would make better choices if I were able to 'listen' to it.



Great question EW

I try to listen to my mind and body

When I am tired I sleep

When I am hungry I eat

When I am angry I step back and analyze why

When I am physically hurt I seek the attention of a professional

When my heart and soul are hurt I hear it but it’s in a language I don’t understand.

55


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Again proud of the way you are handling this Z. Sorry if I missed it, but since your last talk at the coffee shop, have you heard from her? Was that just a short discussion with more to come later or did it end right then and there?


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Again proud of the way you are handling this Z. Sorry if I missed it, but since your last talk at the coffee shop, have you heard from her? Was that just a short discussion with more to come later or did it end right then and there?


It was short. I laid out how I think we have incompatible boundaries and she didn't say much, other than an admission that she'd been hoping I would come around. 

She emailed a couple times since. Back tracked and said she didn't intend to go, was willing to compromise, was having a bad month, is flaky, didn't intentionally dodge me, bought us tickets to a beer fest and was going to surprise me with them. Said she didn't want relationship to end but isn't asking me to change my mind. She said she sees my point, but didn't think it was a big enough deal to break up over. I'm confusing to her. 

I responded with a short explanation that the individual things together are a big deal to me. 

Nothing back in 2 days. I do love the woman, but can't compromise on certain things. Have thought of trying one last thing. Now that she's said she is open to compromise, crack the door to see if she's open to a sit down on boundaries. 

"You said I'm confusing to you, so I want to be as direct as I can. I didn't want the relationship to end either. If we can come to an agreement that works for both of us, I'd love to try."

If she accepts, go from there, with option to be done remaining. If not, it's still over and I can feel like I did my due diligence with her.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Z -
> 
> I have always been good about looking inward except while with X - that was when I 'dodged' myself.
> 
> But I have never been good at being in tune with my body. Like when some people go vegan or organic and say how much better they feel? I can't really tell a difference in how I feel vs. what I eat. Or how energized they feel after a workout? I don't really feel any different.
> 
> I'm wondering if I'm just not very good at listening to my body, not my mind. Have you found meditation to have any positive effects in tuning your mind to your body's frequency? I'm curious about it and wondering if that would benefit me. I think I would make better choices if I were able to 'listen' to it.


I have switched to a vegan diet and do notice a difference in how I feel. 

I do think meditation has played a role there. There are many guided meditations that focus on breath and getting in touch with your physical body. Simple mental exercises on awareness. 

For instance, for a 30 minute sit you want a position that will keep you relaxed yet alert. Not so uncomfortable that you can't sit that long, but not so comfortable that you get drowsy. In a 30 minute sit, feeling some physical discomfort is inevitable. When it happens you mentally acknowledge the discomfort, let yourself feel it, then go back to focusing on the breath again to clear it from your mind. 

It really has helped me with focus, relaxation, identifying and accepting feelings - physical or otherwise.


----------



## Pluto2

Z, 
I agree with you on the guided meditation. I've been doing it for a few years and it helps me get to sleep at night, and keeps the BP in check.


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> "You said I'm confusing to you, so I want to be as direct as I can. I didn't want the relationship to end either. If we can come to an agreement that works for both of us, I'd love to try."
> 
> If she accepts, go from there, with option to be done remaining. If not, it's still over and I can feel like I did my due diligence with her.


Incompatible trust-related boundaries are a deal breaker for me. 

Manipulation, disrespect, passive-aggressiveness and communication problems are something that we will all experience in relationships, and I'm certainly guilty of them all at times.

If an agreement can be reached on the boundaries, I'm confident that with effort on both sides the other things can be worked through. I'm certainly mad and hurt. But I'm not convinced that being completely done with Tiger without clearly putting the ball in her court is best.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> She emailed a couple times since. Back tracked and said she didn't intend to go, was willing to compromise, was having a bad month, is flaky, didn't intentionally dodge me, bought us tickets to a beer fest and was going to surprise me with them. Said she didn't want relationship to end but isn't asking me to change my mind. She said she sees my point, but didn't think it was a big enough deal to break up over. I'm confusing to her.



FWIW, I do not like this. 

Not taking ownership of very real and valid concerns. 

Dismisses and rug-sweeps. 

Even tries to make you feel guilty about the ticket surprise.


----------



## tom67

Ceegee said:


> FWIW, I do not like this.
> 
> Not taking ownership of very real and valid concerns.
> 
> Dismisses and rug-sweeps.
> 
> Even tries to make you feel guilty about the ticket surprise.


:iagree:
Gaslighting all the way.


----------



## smallsteps

Tron said:


> Damn! Wondering if it this is a problem all women have or just ours. :scratchhead:


Don't fool yourself or generalize - lots of men have this problem too. 

My stbxh was notorious for it.


----------



## Conrad

Zillard,

I like what you had to say up to here:

"You said I'm confusing to you, so I want to be as direct as I can. I didn't want the relationship to end either."

Let her respond to that.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> Zillard,
> 
> I like what you had to say up to here:
> 
> "You said I'm confusing to you, so I want to be as direct as I can. I didn't want the relationship to end either."
> 
> Let her respond to that.


T- why couldn't you say that on Monday? I didn't even know we were still an option...

Z- on Monday I didn't know that you were willing to compromise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> T- why couldn't you say that on Monday? I didn't even know we were still an option...
> 
> Z- on Monday I didn't know that you were willing to compromise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In the long run, that's a good thing.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> T- why couldn't you say that on Monday? I didn't even know we were still an option...
> 
> Z- on Monday I didn't know that you were willing to compromise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oye vey!
Here you will like this ugh

It's Not About The Nail - YouTube

She's kinda hot too.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> In the long run, that's a good thing.


If she is actually willing to compromise NOW, I can let the past go and focus on the present. 

If. Until.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

zillard said:


> If she is actually willing to compromise NOW, I can let the past go and focus on the present.
> 
> If. Until.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. I know I should dwell in the present and not in the past, regardless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Yes. I know I should dwell in the present and not in the past, regardless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you doing a Bob Dole on us with the 3d person.


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> Are you doing a Bob Dole on us with the 3d person.


Internal communication. Externally.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Internal communication. Externally.



You know I'm being an @ss, goodnight.


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> You know I'm being an @ss, goodnight.


Me too. 

After some response I told T that I'm an @ss when I'm angry and when I'm scared. I've been both. But there's some things I won't put up with and they need to be communicated.

on her now if she wants to listen.


----------



## zillard

A good test. If you feel angry and scared, you're not ok with it.


----------



## Chuck71

in the end...............1-what do you want to happen?

2-What do you think will be best for you?


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> If an agreement can be reached on the boundaries, I'm confident that with effort on both sides the other things can be worked through. I'm certainly mad and hurt. But I'm not convinced that being completely done with Tiger without clearly putting the ball in her court is best.


sounds familiar in my travels. always make certain to explore

each avenue before, turning and walking away. Like Greg

Maddux, always know the others three steps ahead of the game,

throw ball back into her court. We do the very same thing in

life


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> in the end...............1-what do you want to happen?
> 
> 2-What do you think will be best for you?


Respectful Tiger


----------



## zillard

I think that when I'm willing to open up and be honest about myself to others, they usually respond well. Showing a vulnerability often helps people relax.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> I think that when I'm willing to open up and be honest about myself to others, they usually respond well. Showing a vulnerability often helps people relax.


A person in stress or duress will create, in you, the same feelings and emotions.

And vice versa.

Breaking that cycle is key to healthy communications.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> A person in stress or duress will create, in you, the same feelings and emotions.
> 
> And vice versa.
> 
> Breaking that cycle is key to healthy communications.


We are going to meet and discuss things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

We agreed to lunch tomorrow. I'm not hopeful at the moment. 

T on FB: Taking myself out to dinner on a sat night. Guess it's time to start my cat collection 

Oh, were you expecting dinner *tonight*? Didn't get the memo.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> We agreed to lunch tomorrow. I'm not hopeful at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> T on FB: Taking myself out to dinner on a sat night. Guess it's time to start my cat collection
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, were you expecting dinner *tonight*? Didn't get the memo.



Victim chair.


----------



## zillard

She promptly deleted her post. 

She's upset. 

She's reacting to that without thinking.

Then questioning herself and retracting. Third time she's publicly reaffirmed her single hood and deleted it.


----------



## Ceegee

Did you think her this confused prior to these last couple of weeks?

She was great without conflict.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Did you think her this confused prior to these last couple of weeks?
> 
> She was great without conflict.


Ever since the request not to dance together, on a trip I provided for her birthday. Then after my birthday on vday things went down hill.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Ever since the request not to dance together, on a trip I provided for her birthday. Then after my birthday on vday things went down hill.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I know. 

Was there ever any conflict before?

Relationships are easy without conflict. 

Conflict teaches us a lot about people. 

People are perfect when circumstances are perfect.


----------



## ne9907

zillard said:


> We agreed to lunch tomorrow. I'm not hopeful at the moment.
> 
> T on FB: Taking myself out to dinner on a sat night. *Guess it's time to start my cat collection *
> 
> Oh, were you expecting dinner *tonight*? Didn't get the memo.


I have read your threat, but never commented on it, as you get excellent advise.

But that bolded part of her FB post reminded me of the woman who "dated" my ex (while we were still married).

She is the sort of person who LOVES to turn things around and be the victim. She loves attention. She also once posted that she might as well order her "cat kit" because she would be alone. Turns out she was fishing in order to pressure ex...


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> I know.
> 
> Was there ever any conflict before?
> 
> Relationships are easy without conflict.
> 
> Conflict teaches us a lot about people.
> 
> People are perfect when circumstances are perfect.


There really hasn't been conflict before. Not with her. Ever since our trips to see each other before I moved, our individual worlds have been in conflict due to parenting and exes, but the relationship has been pretty close to perfect. 

There have been minor incidents. When I was drunk I asked her to coffee. I woke and had no memory of it and didn't show. She called me on it, I apologized profusely and made it up to her. I say it was minor because I owned it and took immediate steps to right my foul. And as far as I know, that was that. 

Similar things on both sides. Last minute cancellations, simply can't do date night, etc, but we've talked about them, so worked through them with little trouble.

Really it has been the level of communication that has been the problem. When we talk about things they are done. When we don't they build up and we interpret the next issue based on the proceeding unresolved issue. 

And react accordingly.


----------



## Ceegee

You have a healthy way of dealing with conflict. 

She has shown, in her recent actions, that she does not. 

She might get there. She might not. 

Seems the communication issue is one sided. 

Look, I'm like you. I'm a fixer. I would probably give her another chance. It just needs to be said that, if you do, the same things will likely happen again. 

She hasn't seemed to reach an equal level of awareness. Everyone's different and gets there in their own time if at all.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> We agreed to lunch tomorrow. I'm not hopeful at the moment.
> 
> T on FB: Taking myself out to dinner on a sat night. Guess it's time to start my cat collection
> 
> Oh, were you expecting dinner *tonight*? Didn't get the memo.


FB should not be a thermometer of someone's state of mind

or maybe I should have been born forty years prior


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Chuck71 said:


> FB should not be a thermometer of someone's state of mind
> 
> or maybe I should have been born forty years prior


:iagree:

My "Warning! Warning! Danger, Will Robinson!" alarm goes off when I see people posting their private lives on FB.

But then, I'm in my 40's....


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> You have a healthy way of dealing with conflict.
> 
> She has shown, in her recent actions, that she does not.
> 
> She might get there. She might not.
> 
> Seems the communication issue is one sided.
> 
> Look, I'm like you. I'm a fixer. I would probably give her another chance. It just needs to be said that, if you do, the same things will likely happen again.
> 
> She hasn't seemed to reach an equal level of awareness. Everyone's different and gets there in their own time if at all.


I'm certainly not one to argue against 2nd chances.

(or 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc.)

Then again, I'm married.

Most people you meet are asleep. That's simply a fact.

Women are different than men - fundamentally.

So, they're going to communicate differently, deal with issues differently, solve problems differently.

What you have to ask yourself is, "Is this enough?" Or, am I accumulating bricks?

I think saying you are "ok" with your SO dating other men isn't a brick, it's a boulder.

How you would resolve such an impasse depends on the couple.

I'd like to say my wife readily apologizes now. But, she doesn't.

We usually have a period of extended silence after a falling out. The usual interval is 2-3 days.

I make a habit of not breaking the silence.

When we resume, I take note of whether the behavior continues or not.

If it doesn't, that my apology. And, I take it as such.

Watch what she does... not so concerned about what she says - or even how she says it.


----------



## just got it 55

Ceegee said:


> You have a healthy way of dealing with conflict.
> 
> She has shown, in her recent actions, that she does not.
> 
> She might get there. She might not.
> 
> Seems the communication issue is one sided.
> 
> Look, I'm like you. I'm a fixer. I would probably give her another chance. It just needs to be said that, if you do, the same things will likely happen again.
> 
> She hasn't seemed to reach an equal level of awareness. Everyone's different and gets there in their own time if at all.



Zee I know that the situation is different *but*,

Is it possible that T could have learned the seriousness of your boundaries?

There is only one way to know.

Look at what a 2nd chance has done for S and Ceegee

If do you should probably start from the beginning to minimize the damage to your baby girl.

55


----------



## smallsteps

Look, people can learn from their mistakes. It's called growing. 

I think the key here is to just take everything cautiously. Protect yourself.


----------



## zillard

We met for lunch and had a very good discussion. We both opened up about ourselves a lot and talked for almost 4 hours. 

We are going to try to work through this, with renewed commitment to each other. She's apprehensive about IC, but agrees that it could be beneficial. I'm going to lead and go back myself. She's open to the relationship boundaries exercise I did in IC, and is also open to MC. 

She's uncomfortable that I discuss her so much here, and wants that detailed discussion to be with her more. So my posts here will be more about me from now on. Issues with her with be tackled with her, or in joint counseling.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> We met for lunch and had a very good discussion. We both opened up about ourselves a lot and talked for almost 4 hours.
> 
> We are going to try to work through this, with renewed commitment to each other. She's apprehensive about IC, but agrees that it could be beneficial. I'm going to lead and go back myself. She's open to the relationship boundaries exercise I did in IC, and is also open to MC.
> 
> She's uncomfortable that I discuss her so much here, and wants that detailed discussion to be with her more. So my posts here will be more about me from now on. Issues with her with be tackled with her, or in joint counseling.


ZEE thats showing complete respect for her

Good for you.Hope this all works out.

55


----------



## Pam

You might want to find out if she has a support group that she discusses you with. And if you are comfortable with being discussed (if, indeed, there is such a group) while not being able to discuss her.

Just sayin'


----------



## Miss Independent

I've been following story since you're first post with x(what to do with I don't). I'm curious really why is she uncomfortable?


----------



## Miss Independent

Iphone! I've been following your story since you're first post with X (what to do with I don't know). I'm curious really.,.why is she uncomfortable?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

ThreeStrikes said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My "Warning! Warning! Danger, Will Robinson!" alarm goes off when I see people posting their private lives on FB.
> 
> But then, I'm in my 40's....


Ditto. And I'm trying to teach my kiddo that. Of course I think those who do seem to like drama - at least when they leave it. Even worse when it's veiled. Just spit it out directly to the person in question already. Leave the rest of the FB community out of it!

Had she been drinking - instead of drunk texting, drunk FBing?


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> You might want to find out if she has a support group that she discusses you with. And if you are comfortable with being discussed (if, indeed, there is such a group) while not being able to discuss her.
> 
> Just sayin'


This came from me. A gesture of good faith. If we do something that our SO is uncomfortable with, we can show respect by addressing it. 

We can't force others to respect us, but we can be respectful.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> This came from me. A gesture of good faith. If we do something that our SO is uncomfortable with, we can show respect by addressing it.
> 
> We can't force others to respect us, but we can be respectful.


This is totally cool if she reciprocates somewhere down the road.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> This came from me. A gesture of good faith. If we do something that our SO is uncomfortable with, we can show respect by addressing it.
> 
> We can't force others to respect us, but we can be respectful.


Z,

There's a fine line between being respectful and being a doormat.

FWIW, my response to my SO complaining about any relationship discussions I've been having...whether here on this forum or IRL with friends...would have been: "I'm sorry you feel that way. It is is important for me to discuss my relationship with people that I trust, and who's opinions I value".

I find her request *disrespectful.* And controlling.

Keep working on your alpha-ness, friend


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> This is totally cool if she reciprocates somewhere down the road.


That's out of my hands. 

But I can choose to be cool with myself regardless.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> That's out of my hands.
> 
> But I can choose to be cool with myself regardless.


:iagree::iagree:
Back to the basics
You can't control her
But you can control with what you will or will not put up with.
I have to agree with 3strikes work on the assertive, confident you get her limbic brain going into overdrive.
A little primal action.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> "It is is important for me to discuss my relationship with people that I trust, and who's opinions I value".


And I will. In private.

When people see things differently it is important to find middle ground when possible, if the relationship is valued. 

I've questioned myself posting too much detail in the past, without her mentioning anything. It's not a big thing for me, especially when returning to IC. I have much more support where I am now.


----------



## zillard

When someone does you wrong, you should consider immediately what judgement of good or evil led him to wrong you. When you see this, you will pity him, and not feel surprise or anger. You yourself either still share his view of good, or something like it, in which case you should understand and forgive: if, on the other hand, you no longer judge such things as either good or evil, it will be the easier for you to be patient with the unsighted.

Marcus Aurelius. 

There is limit to that patience. If that is understood on both sides, and the wrongs continue, then it's a different story.

My next chapter is to have fun, and see what happens.


----------



## Pam

I like your chapter.

As long as you are comfortable with the decisions you make, that is all that matters. Only you have to live with you.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> And I will. In private.
> 
> When people see things differently it is important to find middle ground when possible, if the relationship is valued.
> 
> I've questioned myself posting too much detail in the past, without her mentioning anything. It's not a big thing for me, especially when returning to IC. I have much more support where I am now.


Over time, the need for support lessens.

It's about loving yourself - first and foremost.

you will know - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Pam said:


> I like your chapter.
> 
> As long as you are comfortable with the decisions you make, that is all that matters. *Only you have to live with you.*


I come from a very traditional family. My parents have a very strong marriage - not always healthy, but strong and committed. 52 years this summer. 

Regardless of how often we disagree, their relationship has strongly influenced how I view relationships and marriage.

As my romantic relationships progress, I tend to expect that progression to be very steady and formulaic. A leads to B leads to C. Much of my suffering in relationships has been when reality doesn't match up to my expected model. Also when it has aligned with the model, but for the wrong reasons - forcing it to fit the model.

Recently I've been heavily contemplating co-habitating and marriage. My observations and analysis have once again conflicted with my expected model. For me, this is a problem. But it is mine, for it stems from my experience and expectations. When it doesn't match up I become afraid and angry... even though I often question the model itself. It has deep roots.

Reality is. I fight with it a lot. 

During my next chapter I plan to focus on trust in IC. First and foremost trusting myself. Trusting that I will be ok, no matter what. That will allow me to enjoy the present more, follow my gut, and be less anxious about what this or that means for my future. By doing that I can have more fun, unattached from desire and outcome, and therefore be more confident.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> During my next chapter I plan to focus on trust in IC. First and foremost trusting myself. Trusting that I will be ok, no matter what. That will allow me to enjoy the present more, follow my gut, and be less anxious about what this or that means for my future. By doing that I can have more fun, unattached from desire and outcome, and therefore be more confident.


For me, this was done when I was living a solitary life. Without another woman. No relationships, except family and friends. I was able to focus on *me*.


----------



## Chuck71

ThreeStrikes said:


> For me, this was done when I was living a solitary life. Without another woman. No relationships, except family and friends. I was able to focus on *me*.


has to be the lake for me (gee whodda thought that  )

virgin woods, no lamp posts, no 3AM drunken fishermen

it was tainted for a couple months, everytime I went I kept

visualizing the video to "Alive and Kicking" Simple Minds


----------



## zillard

I made an appointment to kick off my next round of IC. Of course, as with most good therapists, can't get in for 2 weeks.

Feeling apprehensive and excited at the same time.


----------



## Morgiana

Just one bit of clarification requested, you sat down over lunch and talked with T or with X for 4 hours?


----------



## zillard

Morgiana said:


> Just one bit of clarification requested, you sat down over lunch and talked with T or with X for 4 hours?


T.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I can't see Z and X talking face to face 4 hours 

I couldn't see my X and I either

too long to go without a GFY moment

and one leaves


----------



## zillard

X and I have actually talked quite a bit lately. But yes, even on the phone I ended up hanging up and rejecting multiple calls after hearing something that I did not like. 

More truth about the posOM came out, which conflicted with her old stories. 

Much of the discussion has been good though. Honest communication with her is helpful when trying to work on my trust issues. It will help me work toward forgiveness, which will allow me to let go of more of the past. 

And she found Zillard on TAM. Of course she had mixed feelings about it. Wants to decapitate me and stick my head in the oven, yet has got a lot of insight from the threads. 

She showed respect by asking if I mind, and said she wouldn't read it if it makes me uncomfortable.


----------



## Ms. GP

She's gonna read it. Trust me!! I think I read Gp's over a couple day period. I was mad at first, I won't lie. I thought the whole internet thing was creepy at first. Most women have close friends that they confide relationship stuff too, so it didn't make sense to me at the time. As you can see, I got over it. Everybody deals with things differently and different doesn't mean bad. Everyone has their own truth. Yours and hers may be different at times, and I think that's normal.


----------



## Tron

Oh damn right she's gonna read it! I don't know a woman on this planet that wouldn't. And she won't like what she reads, but as Ms GP said, it is your perspective. Not much she can say about it at this point anyway. Maybe she will understand and appreciate it over time.

Do the lies continue to surprise you? In the midst of it, cheaters always lie. 

You know what, my W reads my posts sometimes. She doesn't always like what she reads. We've had a few heated arguments about it too. We typically come out of them with a little bit better understanding, but it sure gets uncomfortable.

I'm sorry to say that this won't be a safe place for you to discuss her or even T anymore.


----------



## just got it 55

Zee as long as you have spoken honestly and accurately 

I don't think it would be a bad thing for her to see things as you see them.

55


----------



## Tron

This is for Z's Ex, 

If you are here, it sounds like you may be looking for something. Once you get past your anger and feelings of violation I would encourage you to spend a little time here. 

There is a tremendous amount of life experience tied up into this little corner of cyberspace. Similar folks with similar problems, kindred spirits, who've benefited from their time spent here and have turned their lives around for the better. 

For the most part it is inhabited by people who care and are willing to help. People who are observant, compassionate and will be honest with you, sometimes brutally, but tell you what you need to hear. 

If you feel the urge, pick a handle, post, message, question...LEARN.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z, how/why did your X find zillard on TAM? Did she know you were posting a journal online during your D proceedings or did she find TAM by accident while working through her own stuff? Or was it out of jealousy or another reason that she sought it out... Do you use zillard as username elsewhere?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

If we're lucky enough she'll log in and post. We would welcome her with open arms. 

I too an intrigued about her motivation to get on TAM at this point. 

Whatever the reason, I'm glad she's here. The new perspective can only help.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Ceegee said:


> If we're lucky enough she'll log in and post. We would welcome her with open arms.
> 
> I too an intrigued about her motivation to get on TAM at this point.
> 
> Whatever the reason, I'm glad she's here. The new perspective can only help.


Agreed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tron

I'm glad she's here too and hope she sticks around. 

I'm looking for a new perspective on spaghetti sauce.


----------



## Chuck71

there is definitely a cricket in the cornfield


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Z, how/why did your X find zillard on TAM? Did she know you were posting a journal online during your D proceedings or did she find TAM by accident while working through her own stuff? Or was it out of jealousy or another reason that she sought it out... Do you use zillard as username elsewhere?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She said she stumbled on it after seeing one of my photo bucket images. I don't use zillard elsewhere. 

I imagine after that, curiosity would get the better of just about anyone, regardless of motive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Tron said:


> This is for Z's Ex,
> 
> If you are here, it sounds like you may be looking for something. Once you get past your anger and feelings of violation I would encourage you to spend a little time here.
> 
> There is a tremendous amount of life experience tied up into this little corner of cyberspace. Similar folks with similar problems, kindred spirits, who've benefited from their time spent here and have turned their lives around for the better.
> 
> For the most part it is inhabited by people who care and are willing to help. People who are observant, compassionate and will be honest with you, sometimes brutally, but tell you what you need to hear.
> 
> If you feel the urge, pick a handle, post, message, question...LEARN.


This....

It will take courage.

I'm not sure she's up to it.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> She said she stumbled on it after seeing one of my photo bucket images. I don't use zillard elsewhere.
> 
> I imagine after that, curiosity would get the better of just about anyone, regardless of motive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZEEE 

Will you encourage her participation?

Could she benefit from it?

If not why not?

55


----------



## zillard

just got it 55 said:


> ZEEE
> 
> Will you encourage her participation?


Absolutely. 



just got it 55 said:


> Could she benefit from it?


That's up to her. I think she has benefited from seeing my perspective, even when she doesn't like it. Should she choose to post her own perspective (on the past or the present), I'm certain she would get some valuable feedback. 

Feedback has helped me and many others here. If open to it, yeah, she could benefit. But as MrsGP said, we all deal in different ways.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> That's up to her. I think she has benefited from seeing my perspective, even when she doesn't like it. Should she choose to post her own perspective (on the past or the present), I'm certain she would get some valuable feedback.
> 
> Feedback has helped me and many others here. If open to it, yeah, she could benefit. But as MrsGP said, we all deal in different ways.


Getting over the hurt of someone else's opinion can be damning at first. 

But the reality of the opinion of others can also be quite liberating & enforcing. We all have an innate desire to prove that we are better then any other species on this planet. Whether we admit it or not. We want acceptance. We crave acceptance. 

How many marriages could have potentially survived if the chief matter of acceptance was support from a group of people vs one or two enabling toxic friends? 

That is to say your ex-wife has issues. But we all have our poop. Your ability to own it on a forum shows that.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> That is to say your ex-wife has issues. But we all have our poop. Your ability to own it on a forum shows that.


I certainly poop plenty.


----------



## zillard

A thought from meditation - my mantra for the week. 

"The way I speak to myself is inevitably the way I speak to others. Just as how I treat myself is how I will ultimately treat others."


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> A thought from meditation - my mantra for the week.
> 
> "The way I speak to myself is inevitably the way I speak to others. Just as how I treat myself is how I will ultimately treat others."


Exactly. I notice myself getting on the corners of the drama triangle during my internal dialogue.

Changing thought processes is not easy. But it's required.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> I certainly poop plenty.


Regular exercise will do that.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

zillard said:


> A thought from meditation - my mantra for the week.
> 
> "The way I speak to myself is inevitably the way I speak to others. Just as how I treat myself is how I will ultimately treat others."


Hm. I can be hard on others. I guess I am also hard on myself. However, I'm not sure if that's bad, good, or just is.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Hm. I can be hard on others. I guess I am also hard on myself. However, I'm not sure if that's bad, good, or just is.


HOW matters. 

Self deprecating internal dialogue, not good. 

Stern, motivating, sure.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

True. I guess I'm more of the stern with only a small negative internal dialog.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> True. I guess I'm more of the stern with only a small negative internal dialog.


Often times I need to be stern with myself, or nothing gets done. 

"This needs to get done"

instead of "Stop slacking, idiot."

Basically, if the internal critic makes you feel bad, tell him/her to shut up and try a different approach.


----------



## Chuck71

when you achieve yet still seem hungry

it was the journey; not destination

when it's the destination, you will know it

that.......is when you are 110% content with what you

contributed to society

I'm not done yet

neither are you


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Often times I need to be stern with myself, or nothing gets done.
> 
> 
> 
> "This needs to get done"
> 
> 
> 
> instead of "Stop slacking, idiot."
> 
> 
> 
> Basically, if the internal critic makes you feel bad, tell him/her to shut up and try a different approach.



Knowing your parts makes this easier.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I'm too decadent to feel guilty 

Is it just me or do Chuck's posts all seem like loose prose?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm too decadent to feel guilty
> 
> Is it just me or do Chuck's posts all seem like loose prose?


Nope, not just you. Chucky, is that how you talk in person as well?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Z, feel free not to answer if it's none of our business, but are things slowly getting back to normal with T?


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Knowing your parts makes this easier.


Truth! IFS (internal family systems) comes in handy here.

There was a woman in the meditation group who pretty much described IFS without knowing it.

She has many inner exiles due to her childhood and is unfamiliar with healthy parenting. When her inner critic is too harsh, which it normally is in her case, she looks at friends and acquaintances who she considers to be good parents. She then mimics the behavior and speech they use, on herself. Reparenting. 

It was impressive and honestly a bit attractive to hear her talk about it.


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> Z, feel free not to answer if it's none of our business, but are things slowly getting back to normal with T?


Things are... challenging yet fun.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> Things are... challenging yet fun.


Glad to hear it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm too decadent to feel guilty
> 
> Is it just me or do Chuck's posts all seem like loose prose?


I don't wear panty hose!

well....except when it's cold and it keeps my legs warm

 :rofl:


----------



## Chuck71

TheGoodGuy said:


> Nope, not just you. Chucky, is that how you talk in person as well?


I'm from TN...... :rofl: seriously....east TN mountains

I sound like Billy Ray Cyrus on a four day drunk 

I allow myself to be escaped into my writings as a refuge

from my work in law enforcement and being prostituted for PhD


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> I'm from TN...... :rofl: seriously....east TN mountains
> 
> I sound like Billy Ray Cyrus on a four day drunk
> 
> I allow myself to be escaped into my writings as a refuge
> 
> from my work in law enforcement and being prostituted for PhD


You wrote a novel while being pimped out by the local PD? Weird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

the four novels and three unfinished were a product of life

but I never seriously considered them until awhile back

the UK guy who owns the paper I have wrote for since '98

deserves all the credit, although he says it was all me

"you just needed the room to fly" but it was his allowing me

to express myself freely, to write whatever I chose. I have to

be somewhat invested to gauge myself in them, from a romantic

tragedy to how a man perceives suicide at age 40. When I can

take myself out of this world, it is an inner peace.....a euphoria

most drugs can't touch. Notice I said most :rofl:


----------



## familyfirst09

Chuck71 said:


> when you achieve yet still seem hungry
> 
> it was the journey; not destination
> 
> when it's the destination, you will know it
> 
> that.......is when you are 110% content with what you
> 
> contributed to society
> 
> I'm not done yet
> 
> neither are you



You've been hanging around Conrad too long 

None of us are ever done. When we are done, we are dead. Live to learn. If you are not moving forward, you are simply not moving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

X took initiative and informed d8 that they would have time together this summer. Also that d wouldn't be seeing Ringo anymore. 

Seeing follow through there will tell me a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> X took initiative and informed d8 that they would have time together this summer. Also that d wouldn't be seeing Ringo anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Seeing follow through there will tell me a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



(I will not be the Debbie Downer this time.)


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> (I will not be the Debbie Downer this time.)


Plenty of time for Debbie downer later. She has created an excellent opportunity for herself to step up and show progress. 

I know from personal experience that I'm much more likely to follow through on things when I initiate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> X took initiative and informed d8 that they would have time together this summer. Also that d wouldn't be seeing Ringo anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gone, but not forgotten!


----------



## Chuck71

anyone know what page Ringo made that sexual gesture on

Z's first thread? seems like it was around March

that was priceless lol

almost as much as my X's squeeze "Ray Ray"


----------



## Tron

Chuck71 said:


> anyone know what page Ringo made that sexual gesture on
> 
> Z's first thread? seems like it was around March
> 
> that was priceless lol
> 
> almost as much as my X's squeeze "Ray Ray"


NOOOOOOO! 

Z deleted it.


----------



## Chuck71

Tron said:


> NOOOOOOO!
> 
> Z deleted it.


maybe I should post a pic of Window Cork's pilot b/f

with the headset on riding in a go cart


----------



## Ceegee

Chuck71 said:


> maybe I should post a pic of Window Cork's pilot b/f
> 
> 
> 
> with the headset on riding in a go cart



A side by side pic would be awesome. 

Thanks Chuck, we'll be waiting.


----------



## zillard

Tron said:


> NOOOOOOO!
> 
> Z deleted it.


If I remember correctly the moderators didn't like it, as it was a FB pic. 

And it was posOM, not the beatle.


----------



## Conrad

posOM and Ringo were the same guy?










(Posted before I saw Z's clarification)


----------



## zillard

Made a bunch of custom baby onesies for my Lil brothers wife's baby shower today. Went and did the mom thing. 

Left d8 there after, checked in on the tattoo shop as my bro is out of town. It's running smoothly. 

Borrowed a truck and picked up lumber for d8s new swing set. We assembled the swings and chains tonight together and will start cutting and drilling tomorrow. She's so excited and proud of herself for saving up money for the kit for two years. 

I'm very proud of her for doing so. Kids are usually fickle but her interest hasn't changed. She gets no allowance and saved up gifts and my pocket change. 

Tomorrow she gets to wear safety goggles!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

I just had an IC session. Same therapist that sees D8. I felt it would be beneficial to go to the same one as she's well versed in our situation and how I'm doing will greatly affect my daughter. 

I received feedback that I didn't want to hear, on how I've dealt with X and also T. 

I worked so hard to overcome codependency with X and in some ways have treated T as if she were X. I've taken a similar approach with both without clearly separating them and relating to them as two very different people. I've interpreted T's words and actions lately as if she were my X repeating past behavior. 

I've taken the "don't fix" thing a little too far with T and need to work on being an assertive yet supportive boyfriend. 

I'm a very soft spoken, mild mannered person, which can easily be interpreted as passive, even when I'm trying to be assertive. I can say assertive things, but if my tone of voice, body language and actions don't match, that will overpower the assertive words. 

I'm going back weekly for now, and T is coming along for some joint sessions. IC and I both agree that says a lot. 

As for X, I need to reinforce boundaries for myself and also to be respectful of T. Communicating openly and being friendly will greatly benefit everybody. D8 most of all, especially when she can see and hear us getting along and even joking with each other. As long as that doesn't cross into grey areas. 

Nobody should be left feeling unclear about the situation; friendly coparenting.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Made a bunch of custom baby onesies for my Lil brothers wife's baby shower today. Went and did the mom thing.
> 
> Left d8 there after, checked in on the tattoo shop as my bro is out of town. It's running smoothly.
> 
> Borrowed a truck and picked up lumber for d8s new swing set. We assembled the swings and chains tonight together and will start cutting and drilling tomorrow. She's so excited and proud of herself for saving up money for the kit for two years.
> 
> I'm very proud of her for doing so. Kids are usually fickle but her interest hasn't changed. She gets no allowance and saved up gifts and my pocket change.
> 
> Tomorrow she gets to wear safety goggles!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZEEE That's what Dads do 

55


----------



## 06Daddio08

Zillard, if you'd like to discuss anything about co-parenting feel free to send me a PM.


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> I just had an IC session. Same therapist that sees D8. I felt it would be beneficial to go to the same one as she's well versed in our situation and how I'm doing will greatly affect my daughter.
> 
> 
> 
> I received feedback that I didn't want to hear, on how I've dealt with X and also T.
> 
> 
> 
> I worked so hard to overcome codependency with X and in some ways have treated T as if she were X. I've taken a similar approach with both without clearly separating them and relating to them as two very different people. I've interpreted T's words and actions lately as if she were my X repeating past behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> I've taken the "don't fix" thing a little too far with T and need to work on being an assertive yet supportive boyfriend.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a very soft spoken, mild mannered person, which can easily be interpreted as passive, even when I'm trying to be assertive. I can say assertive things, but if my tone of voice, body language and actions don't match, that will overpower the assertive words.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going back weekly for now, and T is coming along for some joint sessions. IC and I both agree that says a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> As for X, I need to reinforce boundaries for myself and also to be respectful of T. Communicating openly and being friendly will greatly benefit everybody. D8 most of all, especially when she can see and hear us getting along and even joking with each other. As long as that doesn't cross into grey areas.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody should be left feeling unclear about the situation; friendly coparenting.



They are two different people and should be treated as such. 

However, you shouldn't discount the lessons you've learned from X - and any previous relationships for that matter. 

You're still learning now with T. 

Situations are what they are. 

Focusing on yourself and how you deal with these situations is all you can do. 

Btw, picturing you and D8 working on that play set gives me all kinds of warm fuzzies. My D7 is the same way. Much more so than my S13 and S10.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Focusing on yourself and how you deal with these situations is all you can do.


Yup. This is where I have been lacking. Ic is a good kick in the arse. Time to analyze myself more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

Ceegee said:


> They are two different people and should be treated as such.
> 
> However, you shouldn't discount the lessons you've learned from X - and any previous relationships for that matter.
> 
> You're still learning now with T.
> 
> Situations are what they are.
> 
> Focusing on yourself and how you deal with these situations is all you can do.
> 
> Btw, picturing you and D8 working on that play set gives me all kinds of warm fuzzies. My D7 is the same way. Much more so than my S13 and S10.


Daddy's girl.


----------



## Chuck71

Peter Cetera-Daddy's Girl. (hi-tech aor) - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Limited time only.


----------



## Conrad

zillard said:


> Limited time only.


Yes, I ended up sending mine to jail when she was around 20.

But, we're good as gold now.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Limited time only.


Z...... if I happen to be single in 2025...... reckon .....

:rofl: c'mon ..... I'd be a better son-inlaw than Pauly Shore

all kidding aside.... she'll be at that age before you know it

enjoy the memories, they will be priceless


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Awww... a girl with power tools.  Makes my proud of you, Z!

Some of my fondest memories were in the garage with Dad. He'd change oil and do other work - even replaced a clutch. I'd sit there handing him tools and fetching an occasional beer. That's how I learned the what different hand tools are. 

But I must say I'm beginning to hate battery powered tools.  I now have to special order SKIL 14.4v batteries because they aren't in stores anymore. First set was 12v, couldn't get the batteries anymore so have a 4-piece 14.4v SKIL set... now everything is 16 or 18. I'd rather have a cord than mess with stupid expensive rechargeable batteries.

(Sorry for side rant!)


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Awww... a girl with power tools.  Makes my proud of you, Z!
> 
> Some of my fondest memories were in the garage with Dad. He'd change oil and do other work - even replaced a clutch. I'd sit there handing him tools and fetching an occasional beer. That's how I learned the what different hand tools are.
> 
> But I must say I'm beginning to hate battery powered tools.  I now have to special order SKIL 14.4v batteries because they aren't in stores anymore. First set was 12v, couldn't get the batteries anymore so have a 4-piece 14.4v SKIL set... now everything is 16 or 18. I'd rather have a cord than mess with stupid expensive rechargeable batteries.
> 
> (Sorry for side rant!)


Thanks. I'm also starting to hate the batteries. The tools are about 2 years old and my batteries are already crapping out, making this project longer than it needs to be. A handful of long cuts with the circular saw and I have to break to let it recharge. Grr. 

Definitely going for the cord next time.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Awesome z.

I keep corded tools for the larger jobs. I only use my weak ass cordless drill for quick inside jobs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Conrad

God gives us our Little Sweethearts

My son put up a "throwback" picture of mine @age 6.

I melted.

I'll see if I can nab it.


----------



## Ceegee

If we're posting pics of our little ones I'll join right in.


----------



## zillard

Conrad said:


> God gives us our Little Sweethearts
> 
> My son put up a "throwback" picture of mine @age 6.
> 
> I melted.
> 
> I'll see if I can nab it.


Excellent. Is there any relationship more rewarding (and challenging) than that of father and daughter?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Excellent. Is there any relationship more rewarding (and challenging) than that of father and daughter?



Indescribable.


----------



## tom67

Ceegee said:


> Indescribable.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
And then all of a sudden she is 15 like mine
Oh the fun


----------



## TheGoodGuy

We have some awesome kids y'all. Since I don't really want to post my pics online, and don't want to do a link to FB (and maybe can't), I put a couple of me and mine in a private album. Feel free to have a look


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Mine's not so little anymore. But yet not so grown up - she crawled in bed with me last night. 

Pic removed.


----------



## just got it 55

My oldest baby Girl Dr Gracie


----------



## just got it 55

Youngest Baby Girl


----------



## Conrad

Send her to jail (not)

If she comes back and loves you?

A life of bliss.


----------



## Conrad

tom67 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> And then all of a sudden she is 15 like mine
> Oh the fun


Stay the course.


----------



## tom67

Conrad said:


> Stay the course.


Like the white sox bullpen today:banghead:
She has fun watching her little cousin now.


----------



## zillard

I don't believe in god yet still see my daughter as the biggest blessing I've ever received. Blessing? Biggest gift from the universe? Biggest accomplishment/opportunity? 

Does it matter how we word it if we recognize that it is the exact same amount of gratitude regardless?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> I don't believe in god yet still see my daughter as the biggest blessing I've ever received. Blessing? Biggest gift from the universe? Biggest accomplishment/opportunity?
> 
> Does it matter how we word it if we recognize that it is the exact same amount of gratitude regardless?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> Yes


I'm sorry you feel that way. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not comfortable where this conversation is going.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

zillard said:


> I don't believe in god yet still see my daughter as the biggest blessing I've ever received. Blessing? Biggest gift from the universe? Biggest accomplishment/opportunity?
> 
> Does it matter how we word it if we recognize that it is the exact same amount of gratitude regardless?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto. It's nothing special in terms of procreation as all species do it (i.e. not a miracle/blessing/gift) but it has a profound impact when it's yours.


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Limited time only.


ZEEE this pic makes me so sad for her mom

Really makes one think about her mindset

This little angel is stunning

55


----------



## TheGoodGuy

just got it 55 said:


> ZEEE this pic makes me so sad for her mom
> 
> Really makes one think about her mindset
> 
> This little angel is stunning
> 
> 55


Agreed.


----------



## zillard

lesson learned by a novice... 2x4s are not 2"x4".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy

I hear they used to be many years ago, but at some point the removed 1/2" from each dimension.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EnjoliWoman

TheGoodGuy said:


> I hear they used to be many years ago, but at some point the removed 1/2" from each dimension.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The first 'rough cut' pass is actually 2"x4" - the second pass cleans it up, reducing it by .25" on all four edges.

And yet, when I looked at high-grade finished wood for shelving for a bookcase I wanted to build, it was actually 1" thick and 12" wide. Go figure.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Okay so this is really dorky, but I was talking with my BFF one day about my screened porch project (and probably had a few drinks) and I guess I said twobyfour really fast running it all together and she asked, "What is that - a small woods-dwelling animal?" as a joke and I quickly replied "Yes, it only eats tubors". (Get it? Ominvore, Herbavore, Turborvor?) And we cracked up laughing until tears rolled down our faces. So for Halloween last year I was a grey tubervore and she was a ring-tailed turborvore. We chuckled all night - no one found it quite as funny as we did. 

ETA - at the second party I gave up explaining and told everyone I was a mouse.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

OK guys it's been fun talking to myself but my second cup of coffee is gone, the shower is calling, then it's time to go to the vet to get heartworm med (they forgot to give it to me even tho I paid for it) and then I have about 12 things to plant and 10 bags of mulch to spread. And I should probably vacuum out my car since the mulch didn't all fit in the trunk and my backseat now has dirt on it.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

lol Enjoli! Enjoy the day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> I don't believe in god yet still see my daughter as the biggest blessing I've ever received. Blessing? Biggest gift from the universe? Biggest accomplishment/opportunity?
> 
> Does it matter how we word it if we recognize that it is the exact same amount of gratitude regardless?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZEEE .....when they grow up to be adults to realize their dreams and know you did all you could to support their accomplishments.

That feeling is overwhelming and helps erase all those mistakes you made.

Can't wait for you to feel that.

55


----------



## zillard

just got it 55 said:


> ZEEE .....when they grow up to be adults to realize their dreams and know you did all you could to support their accomplishments.
> 
> That feeling is overwhelming and helps erase all those mistakes you made.
> 
> Can't wait for you to feel that.
> 
> 55


Thank you. That is my goal. I hope I'm up to the task. At times I wonder if I actually am. Going it alone, as it were, is daunting. Yet if I succeed I can see it as my greatest accomplishment in life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Yet another large round of layoffs and reorganization at work. The original team I started with over 5 years ago and many since have come and gone. Only one other remains due to being picked up by another department. 

Again, I remain. Being a shared resource with a unique skill set that supports multiple departments has saved my @ss many times. 

Not only do I remain but am receiving equipment upgrades and soon a new compensation plan. 

It feels very good to know I am valued. Even though I know that during the divorce I was not up to par (personally- not from their perspective). 

#doingsomethingright 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Yet another large round of layoffs and reorganization at work. The original team I started with over 5 years ago and many since have come and gone. Only one other remains due to being picked up by another department.
> 
> Again, I remain. Being a shared resource with a unique skill set that supports multiple departments has saved my @ss many times.
> 
> Not only do I remain but am receiving equipment upgrades and soon a new compensation plan.
> 
> It feels very good to know I am valued. Even though I know that during the divorce I was not up to par (personally- not from their perspective).
> 
> #doingsomethingright
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's great.:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Yet another large round of layoffs and reorganization at work. The original team I started with over 5 years ago and many since have come and gone. Only one other remains due to being picked up by another department.
> 
> Again, I remain. Being a shared resource with a unique skill set that supports multiple departments has saved my @ss many times.
> 
> Not only do I remain but am receiving equipment upgrades and soon a new compensation plan.
> 
> It feels very good to know I am valued. Even though I know that during the divorce I was not up to par (personally- not from their perspective).
> 
> #doingsomethingright
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing wrong with D8 being proud of you as well

55


----------



## just got it 55

zillard said:


> Thank you. That is my goal. I hope I'm up to the task. At times I wonder if I actually am. Going it alone, as it were, is daunting. Yet if I succeed I can see it as my greatest accomplishment in life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ZEEE One is harder than many

No preasure though!!!

55


----------



## EnjoliWoman

zillard said:


> Yet another large round of layoffs and reorganization at work. The original team I started with over 5 years ago and many since have come and gone. Only one other remains due to being picked up by another department.
> 
> Again, I remain. Being a shared resource with a unique skill set that supports multiple departments has saved my @ss many times.
> 
> Not only do I remain but am receiving equipment upgrades and soon a new compensation plan.
> 
> It feels very good to know I am valued. Even though I know that during the divorce I was not up to par (personally- not from their perspective).
> 
> #doingsomethingright
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Congrats! It's good to have an employer who knows you are worth it even when there have been some circumstances where you couldn't be at your best. They knew you, and knew that it was temporary and have proven you are back up to par. You'll do great - fake it til you make it! And make it you will.


----------



## zillard

I had a really good and difficult therapy session today. 

Most of it I won't disclose. But my therapist had a very good analogy about relationships that I would like to share. 

Our feelings are like an iceberg. The largest mass, underneath the surface of the water, contains our primary emotions. Most of which directly correlate to early childhood and past relationships. These are the really scary emotions that we do not share. Rejection, isolation, inadequacy, shame, hurt, guilt, disappointment, etc. 

The tip of the iceberg, above the surface, are the emotions that we display. Anger, anxiety, distrust, coldness, etc.

Relationships are the titanic. 

We can steer the boat to avoid the surface emotions, but still may come into contact with the primary emotions beneath the surface, without even realizing that they are there. 

We hit them and trigger them, but we still only see the tip of the iceberg moving. Without understanding the cause. 

The trick is to embrace those primary emotions, to look beneath the surface, acknowledge them, and understand them. By doing so we can stop fearing them, and see the iceberg as it is, rather than focusing on the tip above the surface. 

Not only in ourselves, but in others. By realizing that we are all icebergs, it can be easier to stop taking the secondary, reactionary emotions personally, and focus on how and why the boat has hit the mass underneath.


----------



## AFPhoenix

Thanks for that Zillard. I notice that I don't react the same way. I stop to analyze before acting.


----------



## zillard

AFPhoenix said:


> Thanks for that Zillard. I notice that I don't react the same way. I stop to analyze before acting.


I try to do that too. I can be a problem. Sometimes an immediate reaction is expected. Sometimes an immediate reaction is necessary. Delayed reactions can convey things we don't intend to convey, immediately. 

We need to see the iceberg. Sometimes immediately. Maintaining focus is necessary for that to happen. Very much like the 50k feet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Seeing beneath the surface- that gigantic mass of icy baggage- is akin to recognizing our own PoS tendencies.


----------



## zillard

D8 only has 3 weeks left of school. 
JPA has her summers with X. 
Last year it didn't happen; just a week.
X expressed interest this year.
Multiple times asked me to provide dates for the visit.
I refused. CYA. Won't dictate her time.
Time running out so I reached out. 

I told her I like being friendly with her but I need her to step up and decide how long she wants D8. 

Finally got a response last night. X wants D8 June - mid/late July. 

Starting to feel anxious about it. This will be the longest time I've been away from D8 since she was born. 

I'm assuming the usual tips will be appropriate here:

Stay busy
Have fun


----------



## 06Daddio08

If your ex is stepping up to the plate, this will be good for your daughter.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> If your ex is stepping up to the plate, this will be good for your daughter.


Yes, I believe that. It could potentially be good for all of us (individually).


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Hi.

Is it a more general anxiety or are there specific concerns?


----------



## zillard

HobbesTheTiger said:


> Hi.
> 
> Is it a more general anxiety or are there specific concerns?


General anxiety. I'm not that worried about her well being. 

Worried about her quickly becoming bored out of her mind with no other children around. 

And that I will be too.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> General anxiety. I'm not that worried about her well being.
> 
> Worried about her quickly becoming bored out of her mind with no other children around.
> 
> And that I will be too.


Assuming and stressing over something that isn't in your control. It's a positive and good thing as you said for all of you. I get the anxiety aspect with being away from your daughter, I went through that early on as well.

This will give you some time to recharge and refocus, it's okay to enjoy this time on your own.


----------



## zillard

Warning. This is a rant. Nothing more, nothing less.

I fvcking hate being disrespected. My definition of respect may differ from some, but my definition is mine. It always has been and always will be. It has nothing to do with my marriage to X, is not baggage from that relationship, it is just how I view things. Before, then, now, and in the future. 

If someone makes plans with me, I expect them to follow through. I expect them to show up. Ship happens in life and things get in the way. I understand that. I actually think that I am more understanding and sympathetic than most people. I'm a nice guy. I'm a pleaser. 

When someone I care about makes plans to do something with me, I do what I can to be available. In my current situation, being available means involving third parties. It means rearranging dinner plans. It means securing a sitter. It means not eating lunch or dinner due to lunch or dinner plans. 

When life gets in the way and following through on those plans is not possible. I understand. My life is busy too. My time is valuable too. 

If the planned event doesn't happen, it won't ruin my day. I get it. As long as there is communication about it. 

If I rearrange things, secure a sitter, postpone work meetings, etc in anticipation of a get together... I fvcking better receive an update and a good reason if the event is going to be cancelled. 

If I do all that and receive no word from the other party, and am left hanging, c0ck in hand, twiddling thumbs... 

It brings out a very deep, dark, unforgiving hatred of that action, or lack thereof. 

Can't make it? Fine. TELL ME! 

Don't feel like it? Fine. TELL ME!

Leave me hanging and I will start throwing bricks and mortar to the wall. I will reinforce the parts of the wall that already exist. And I will start painting on the wall to increase it's aesthetic value. 

If someone is late, I view that as disrespect. It tells me that they do not value my time. 

If someone doesn't even bother to send a simple "can't make it" text, I view that as disrespect for my time plus added insult as I'm not even worth the 1 minute it takes to text, much less respected enough for them to honor their word. 

I completely understand if I am not someone else's first priority. I'm absolutely fine with that. 

But in a relationship... I WILL NOT be a fvcking afterthought!

When being left hanging becomes a pattern, I WILL start expecting to be let down. In no way, shape or form is that conducive to a healthy relationship. 

After X, I do have trust issues. 

But, when I'm frequently left dangling with no word, I will trust that pattern to continue. And that has nothing at all to do with my X. 

/end rant


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Perfect rant, I completely share that point of view! It is one of the most disrespectful things in my opinion.

With the added disclaimer that I usually wait to see if they have had some sort of accident or some similar overpowering reason and couldn't text. 

But if that doesn't happen, I've been known to cut people out of my life for things like that, especially if it hasn't happened for the 1st time.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Ditto!!!

That's why it drives me up a wall when ex is late so often! (He was actually on time last Sunday, surprise.)

I, too, have to rearrange things. I understand that things come up and only ask for as much advance warning - let me know as soon as you know. But I hate hate hate when someone waits til the last minute and you KNOW they knew before then. That's the worst.

It's not baggage. To me, it's common human decency to be considerate of other people's time. I give it and I expect to get it.


----------



## hope4family

Z, having a 2 year old primarily I totally agree. 

I have waited weeks for plans with certain friends to come together because of all the constant involvement of third party's. 

So when it's go time. On top of sometimes being blown off, I can get anxious.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> it's common human decency to be considerate of other people's time. I give it and I expect to get it.


Bingo! 

When it doesn't happen, it's not just flaky. It's fvckin rude.

And mean.


----------



## hope4family

I think another part of it, is our current phases of life. It only exponents our desire to be deliberate. Because we have to pull a lot of resources to make something happen.

Big thing in my growth is when learning not to care where the time goes when waiting for a friend, and when it means everything. 

That's right, willingly choosing when to let it go, and when to make a big deal about it.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I think another part of it, is our current phases of life. It only exponents our desire to be deliberate. Because we have to pull a lot of resources to make something happen.
> 
> Big thing in my growth is when learning not to care where the time goes when waiting for a friend, and when it means everything.
> 
> That's right, willingly choosing when to let it go, and when to make a big deal about it.


Yes. Highly depends on what we are or are not ok with. 

Individual instances, I have little trouble letting go. When it becomes a pattern I have more trouble doing so, as it is a sign of something larger happening. 

Even when it means everything, and we feel we must make a big deal about it, there is still a point where we must let go, as it is not in our control. 

But that comes after "I'm not ok with that". And letting go of our desire for things to be the way we expect them to be does not equal an absence of consequence. 

In my world, the consequence is the formation of a new expectation. An expectation that this is how I will be treated. 

The result is lack of trust.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Again Z you have written how I feel much better than I could have. I agree 1000%. Maybe it was the way I was raised, but I follow through with comittments and I'm on time. Yes, life happens, to everyone including me, but I will at least communicate if something comes up that changes the plan. At the end, my ex said I was too boring and stuck in a rut, that I wasn't spontaneous enough. 
Perhaps so, but it doesn't change a core value of mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

zillard said:


> Warning. This is a rant. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> I fvcking hate being disrespected. My definition of respect may differ from some, but my definition is mine. It always has been and always will be. It has nothing to do with my marriage to X, is not baggage from that relationship, it is just how I view things. Before, then, now, and in the future.
> 
> If someone makes plans with me, I expect them to follow through. I expect them to show up. Ship happens in life and things get in the way. I understand that. I actually think that I am more understanding and sympathetic than most people. I'm a nice guy. I'm a pleaser.
> 
> When someone I care about makes plans to do something with me, I do what I can to be available. In my current situation, being available means involving third parties. It means rearranging dinner plans. It means securing a sitter. It means not eating lunch or dinner due to lunch or dinner plans.
> 
> When life gets in the way and following through on those plans is not possible. I understand. My life is busy too. My time is valuable too.
> 
> If the planned event doesn't happen, it won't ruin my day. I get it. As long as there is communication about it.
> 
> If I rearrange things, secure a sitter, postpone work meetings, etc in anticipation of a get together... I fvcking better receive an update and a good reason if the event is going to be cancelled.
> 
> If I do all that and receive no word from the other party, and am left hanging, c0ck in hand, twiddling thumbs...
> 
> It brings out a very deep, dark, unforgiving hatred of that action, or lack thereof.
> 
> Can't make it? Fine. TELL ME!
> 
> Don't feel like it? Fine. TELL ME!
> 
> Leave me hanging and I will start throwing bricks and mortar to the wall. I will reinforce the parts of the wall that already exist. And I will start painting on the wall to increase it's aesthetic value.
> 
> If someone is late, I view that as disrespect. It tells me that they do not value my time.
> 
> If someone doesn't even bother to send a simple "can't make it" text, I view that as disrespect for my time plus added insult as I'm not even worth the 1 minute it takes to text, much less respected enough for them to honor their word.
> 
> I completely understand if I am not someone else's first priority. I'm absolutely fine with that.
> 
> But in a relationship... I WILL NOT be a fvcking afterthought!
> 
> When being left hanging becomes a pattern, I WILL start expecting to be let down. In no way, shape or form is that conducive to a healthy relationship.
> 
> After X, I do have trust issues.
> 
> But, when I'm frequently left dangling with no word, I will trust that pattern to continue. And that has nothing at all to do with my X.
> 
> /end rant



Wow...I forgot how similar we were...can I copy and paste this and send it to the guy I was seeing?!?! I hope it helped getting it off your chest. And yes, you deserve the upmost respect. Don't settle for less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Warning. This is a rant. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> I fvcking hate being disrespected. My definition of respect may differ from some, but my definition is mine. It always has been and always will be. It has nothing to do with my marriage to X, is not baggage from that relationship, it is just how I view things. Before, then, now, and in the future.
> 
> If someone makes plans with me, I expect them to follow through. I expect them to show up. Ship happens in life and things get in the way. I understand that. I actually think that I am more understanding and sympathetic than most people. I'm a nice guy. I'm a pleaser.
> 
> When someone I care about makes plans to do something with me, I do what I can to be available. In my current situation, being available means involving third parties. It means rearranging dinner plans. It means securing a sitter. It means not eating lunch or dinner due to lunch or dinner plans.
> 
> When life gets in the way and following through on those plans is not possible. I understand. My life is busy too. My time is valuable too.
> 
> If the planned event doesn't happen, it won't ruin my day. I get it. As long as there is communication about it.
> 
> If I rearrange things, secure a sitter, postpone work meetings, etc in anticipation of a get together... I fvcking better receive an update and a good reason if the event is going to be cancelled.
> 
> If I do all that and receive no word from the other party, and am left hanging, c0ck in hand, twiddling thumbs...
> 
> It brings out a very deep, dark, unforgiving hatred of that action, or lack thereof.
> 
> Can't make it? Fine. TELL ME!
> 
> Don't feel like it? Fine. TELL ME!
> 
> Leave me hanging and I will start throwing bricks and mortar to the wall. I will reinforce the parts of the wall that already exist. And I will start painting on the wall to increase it's aesthetic value.
> 
> If someone is late, I view that as disrespect. It tells me that they do not value my time.
> 
> If someone doesn't even bother to send a simple "can't make it" text, I view that as disrespect for my time plus added insult as I'm not even worth the 1 minute it takes to text, much less respected enough for them to honor their word.
> 
> I completely understand if I am not someone else's first priority. I'm absolutely fine with that.
> 
> But in a relationship... I WILL NOT be a fvcking afterthought!
> 
> When being left hanging becomes a pattern, I WILL start expecting to be let down. In no way, shape or form is that conducive to a healthy relationship.
> 
> After X, I do have trust issues.
> 
> But, when I'm frequently left dangling with no word, I will trust that pattern to continue. And that has nothing at all to do with my X.
> 
> /end rant



Z, in a relationship.... you get out what you put in. If you feel you

put in more than you get, re-examine the relationship. I always allow

for one put-off when dating. Everyone makes mistakes. But a second...

I am aware whom this is directed towards. I will PM the rest.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Hey, Z... I realize this is Xs responsibility but something to consider (you're probably a step ahead)...

When you are helping D pack, maybe you should go shopping to get things like an art set/markers/pencils she can take with her, a bead/craft/jewelry thing or a stack of books or some games she can play by herself (like Memory), etc. or a little science kit of some sort like bug habitat since you think she'll be bored. You can ask her take pics of what she's working on and send them to you.

Or you can make a game out of nightly phone calls - give her 'scavenger hunt' assignments each week - find a white rock, a leaf bigger than her hand, a feather....


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Hey, Z... I realize this is Xs responsibility but something to consider (you're probably a step ahead)...
> 
> When you are helping D pack, maybe you should go shopping to get things like an art set/markers/pencils she can take with her, a bead/craft/jewelry thing or a stack of books or some games she can play by herself (like Memory), etc. or a little science kit of some sort like bug habitat since you think she'll be bored. You can ask her take pics of what she's working on and send them to you.
> 
> Or you can make a game out of nightly phone calls - give her 'scavenger hunt' assignments each week - find a white rock, a leaf bigger than her hand, a feather....


Excellent ideas. Will also be packing her roller blades and bike. Sending her with a tablet too, so we can skype and she can play games/netflix.


----------



## zillard

Well, it's official.

T and I are done. 

Cordial breakup with a hug, kiss, and a take care.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Well, it's official.
> 
> T and I are done.
> 
> Cordial breakup with a hug, kiss, and a take care.


Sorry to hear man.


----------



## wtf2012

zillard said:


> Well, it's official.
> 
> T and I are done.
> 
> Cordial breakup with a hug, kiss, and a take care.


Sorry to hear.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

zillard said:


> Well, it's official.
> 
> T and I are done.
> 
> Cordial breakup with a hug, kiss, and a take care.


I'm sorry, Z. I was hoping it would turn around for you.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Damnit. I was really rooting for you guys. Hang in there Z.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Well, it's official.
> 
> T and I are done.
> 
> Cordial breakup with a hug, kiss, and a take care.


who knows what the future holds. but this was much more

civil than.... the one you went through about 18 months ago.

There are pros and cons to being in a relationship

same can be said to being alone

My Alaska trip was work related but I enjoyed the isolation

yet it also helped UG and I in several ways

use it for growth and D8. School is out and she will

have you panting for breath every evening getting into things.


----------



## 06Daddio08

I suggest embracing the upcoming time that you'll be solo without your daughter even more now. Go do something, but don't over think it.


----------



## angelpixie

Sorry, Z. You're probably hurting about this -- just sending you a big hug. Everything I am thinking of adding comes out sounding platitudinous, so I will just say the above.


----------



## zillard

Thanks.

I took D8 camping for three nights with family and friends. 

Each day more people showed up; people I haven't seen in years, friends from out of town, a bunch of new faces too. 

It was just what I needed.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I'm glad your camping trip turned out well. Sorry about the breakup. Maybe time without D will prove to be good for you.


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> Sorry about the breakup. Maybe time without D will prove to be good for you.


It will if I want it to be. And I do. 

Already planning a backpacking trip with some old friends. Planted quite the garden, which will keep me busy. Getting ready for some home improvement projects. And continuing IC.


----------



## Lifescript

Z,

Sorry about you and T breaking up. At least it was cordial and not full of senseless drama like breakups usually are. Hang in there man.


----------



## Chuck71

Lifescript said:


> Z,
> 
> Sorry about you and T breaking up. At least it was cordial and not full of senseless drama like breakups usually are. Hang in there man.


at times the senseless drama comes later

when the reality of a break up sets in


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Chuck71 said:


> at times the senseless drama comes later
> 
> when the reality of a break up sets in


Only if he allows it.


----------



## zillard

I won't pretend. We were off and on for the last few months and had some drama on both sides. 

But not enough to prevent a friendly break up, perhaps because we both still care about each other. 

It became apparent though that we have different views on committed relationships and ultimately different endgames.


----------



## HappyKaty

Sorry to hear about the break-up, babe.  Hope you, and that sweet little one, are doing well, otherwise!


----------



## Pluto2

Sorry about the breakup Z. Maybe its better you know now that you two had different endgames.
Lots of interesting developments can take place over the summer....


----------



## zillard

Today is D8's last day of 2nd grade. 

We moved from a state with a terrible education system to a much better school, and she is still excelling (and getting a bit bored because of it). After the first parent teacher conference the normal homework was scrapped and she was given higher level material. Even with that, she didn't do homework every night. She could sit down on Sunday and knock out the advanced homework for the entire week in an hour. 

I'm so proud of her.

After she gets home today, we're off to the lake for the weekend. Should be some good quality time before I take her to her mom's for the summer.

Gonna miss the little ******.


----------



## zillard

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry about the breakup Z. Maybe its better you know now that you two had different endgames.


Yes. Much better now vs later. Especially with the kids involved.

As silly as the relationship books may seem at first, many are very insightful. For the uninitiated, it's easy to think that love should just happen, it shouldn't be work. That is the ultimate delusion. Perpetuated by society, chick flicks, etc. 

The 5 Love Languages comes to mind. It's a very simple concept but powerful and spot on. 

What I've learned about myself is that my primary languages are quality time and physical touch. Any who have read it knows that physical touch does not always = sex. It can be a hand hold, caress, hug, kiss, etc. 

I have needs in a relationship. I need certain things to happen in order to feel loved. This is not necessary for me to love myself, but it is necessary for me to feel loved by another. 

Time together without physical touch, to me, is not quality time. They go hand in hand. Pun intended. 

Due to this, I've come to a realization about myself. Long distance relationships will not work for me in the long run. Rarely seeing the other person will not work for me. Frequently seeing someone who is very cold in the physical touch department will not work for me. 

In order to feel loved and appreciated in a relationship, I need a person who is available, and physically affectionate. 

This presents a very real problem for me, as a single parent. Especially if dating a single parent. Schedules limit interaction, and thus limit physical touch and quality time. 

The solution? 

Still searching. Is it possible to change your love language? I don't know.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> In order to feel loved and appreciated in a relationship, I need a person who is available, and physically affectionate.
> 
> This presents a very real problem for me, as a single parent. Especially if dating a single parent. Schedules limit interaction, and thus limit physical touch and quality time.
> 
> The solution?
> 
> Still searching. Is it possible to change your love language? I don't know.


Physical touch took the lead, time & affirmation tied. I guess that means I have a romantic soul? 

Joking aside, I empathize. I don't have the solution, but the exact same problem. As a single parent I've learned to try and make what little time I have count. 

I just wish that people would understand that to them it may just be "free time" but if I am choosing to be with you. That by itself is a HUGE commitment. At the very least, I value your friendship highly. 

You have made a big commitment to growth and focus. So i'm sure, you will either find the answer, or find a way to make it work.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I just wish that people would understand that to them it may just be "free time" but if I am choosing to be with you. That by itself is a HUGE commitment. At the very least, I value your friendship highly.


This brings to mind something I read on a forum for my personality type. 

How do you know if an INTJ likes/values/loves you? 

They show up. If they don't have deep feelings for you... they simply won't.


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> I just wish that people would understand that to them it may just be "free time" but if I am choosing to be with you. That by itself is a HUGE commitment. At the very least, I value your friendship highly.


And, at least for our type, this goes both ways. 

If we make that commitment, make ourselves available because we value them, and they frequently do the opposite...

we feel that they do not value us.


----------



## hope4family

When I first took that test a year ago. I was INTJ, man that's odd. 

When I took it yesterday after a very hard counseling session, I was INTP. 

Likely because lately I have been having to perceive a lot more and move more towards acceptance of others, even the insanity of my own folks. I am also %1 difference between feeling and thinking.


----------



## zillard

I've taken it multiple times over the last decade and am consistently INTJ. 

In the shower today I had an interesting thought. 

I wonder if anyone has looked into a possible correlation between the Myers Briggs Personality/Typology Assessment and the 5 Love Languages. 

It makes sense to me that there would be some correlation between the two.


----------



## angelpixie

I am an INFJ on the M-B. A while back, I thought about the love languages and my relationship with Chinless. What I needed then to feel loved by him were acts of service -- he could say 'words,' he gave 'gifts,' and he demonstrated 'touch'...but they were easy for him, and also gave him gratification. What _I needed in my life then_ was concrete help, which he didn't want to do, whether I needed it to feel loved or not.

Recently, I took the LL quiz online. Basically, gifts were really low on the list...but everything else was just about equal. In fact, for quite a few questions, it was pretty much a toss-up as to which I preferred. Maybe that does correlate with my M-B type. Heart and feelings and intention are very important to me. I think, after years of therapy, reading and developing new relationships in my life, romantic and otherwise, I've tried to see intention more. If someone really is showing _genuine love_ for me, and _cares that I know how they feel_ by doing something that I can see (or touch or that helps me out -- whatever, lol), that means more to me than whether or not they're actually 'skilled' at it. Does that make sense? I think that's why Words, Quality Time, and Touch all were about the same for me.

And come to think of it, as an introvert, I think those things mean so much to me because they're difficult for me, too. 

You might be on to something, Z. 

These two sites do a good job of describing the M-B traits, and how they play out in romantic relationships:

Keirsey Temperament Website - Personality and Your Career (ETA: The link says 'Career,' but it really is about relationships, lol)

INTJ relationships and dating | 16 Personality Types (There is one for each personality type, linked to at the bottom of the type description page)


----------



## Awakening2012

I am INFJ, too! Thanks for this interesting discussion -- and sorry about the breakup Z, but you have grown so much I'm pretty sure you are invincible!

Best, A12


----------



## poppyseed

zillard said:


> In order to feel loved and appreciated in a relationship, I need a person who is available, and physically affectionate.
> 
> This presents a very real problem for me, as a single parent. Especially if dating a single parent. Schedules limit interaction, and thus limit physical touch and quality time.
> 
> The solution?
> 
> Still searching. Is it possible to change your love language? I don't know.



Someone like you probably would need another long-term relationship / poss. marriage. I doubt you can "change" your highly personal needs which you have.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

INTJ here. Although a lot of those are pretty close to being equal like introvert/extrovert...

I'm high on touch and words of affirmation and then acts of service. Non-sexual touch, specifically, is a pretty big one. As much as I love sex I also love the random hugs, hand holding, hand on thigh in the car, arms around each other, and snuggling and if I have that then there's a much better connection and sex follows naturally. Ex rarely touched unless it was to become sexually.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm high on touch and words of affirmation and then acts of service. Non-sexual touch, specifically, is a pretty big one. As much as I love sex I also love the random hugs, hand holding, hand on thigh in the car, arms around each other, and snuggling and if I have that then there's a much better connection and sex follows naturally. Ex rarely touched unless it was to become sexually.


:iagree: Me too!


----------



## zillard

EnjoliWoman said:


> INTJ here. Although a lot of those are pretty close to being equal like introvert/extrovert...
> 
> I'm high on touch and words of affirmation and then acts of service. Non-sexual touch, specifically, is a pretty big one. As much as I love sex I also love the random hugs, hand holding, hand on thigh in the car, arms around each other, and snuggling and if I have that then there's a much better connection and sex follows naturally.


Same here. 

I love to give in this way too, so it really sucks when a partner is cold or non-receptive in this area.


----------



## zillard

poppyseed said:


> Someone like you probably would need another long-term relationship / poss. marriage.


You are absolutely right. This is why T and I didn't work. She doesn't ever want those things.


----------



## Chuck71

Z do you feel you are gun shy on M? Has your view from it changed

from before you met X?


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Z do you feel you are gun shy on M? Has your view from it changed
> 
> from before you met X?


After the D, during healing period, I was absolutely gun shy and jaded about M. 

Now, with help from a ton of IC, I'm back to where I was before X. 

After a night of being treated like a king, I want to wake up next to my queen and make her some mother fvcking pancakes.


----------



## zillard

Pancakes


----------



## Chuck71

I can relate..... being gun shy. As Group spoke, 'where is the 

incentive?' The emotions I had for WC back in '98, maybe that was

the top of the mountain and it's downhill from there. If someone 

said, you will be married in 2017, my guess would be, it will be UG.

But at the moment, I have no intentions of us getting M. Course 

that gives me another Crossroads, another fifth and a trip to the lake

Who knows..... this may be one of those coming of age moments

but I will not know it until it has passed...


----------



## Chuck71

pancake? there ya go talking about make up again :rofl:


----------



## zillard

I do see incentive again. With some big IFs. 

I highly value alone time. I need it in my life. 

But I also highly value companionship. And long term, I don't feel that while separated more often than not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

I'm definitely gun shy. I share your views about wanting to wake up next to my queen and sharing my life with someone not just on a part time basis. BUT I want no paper attachments. In the future, if things don't work out with another woman I don't wanna have to worry about getting divorced and all that BS.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Lifescript said:


> I'm definitely gun shy. I share your views about wanting to wake up next to my queen and sharing my life with someone not just on a part time basis. BUT I want no paper attachments. In the future, if things don't work out with another woman I don't wanna have to worry about getting divorced and all that BS.


Better split up before you're common law.


----------



## ihatethis

EnjoliWoman said:


> INTJ here. Although a lot of those are pretty close to being equal like introvert/extrovert...
> 
> I'm high on touch and words of affirmation and then acts of service. Non-sexual touch, specifically, is a pretty big one. As much as I love sex I also love the random hugs, hand holding, hand on thigh in the car, arms around each other, and snuggling and if I have that then there's a much better connection and sex follows naturally. Ex rarely touched unless it was to become sexually.


I am the same exact way. I love the non sexual touch. (along with the sexual of course )


----------



## zillard

My experience was that the actual legal divorce, paperwork, etc, was much less of a problem than the emotional turmoil of the split.

I didn't have a nasty one, dragged out in court though.


----------



## zillard

ihatethis said:


> I am the same exact way. I love the non sexual touch. (along with the sexual of course )


Do you like pancakes?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> My experience was that the actual legal divorce, paperwork, etc, was much less of a problem than the emotional turmoil of the split.
> 
> I didn't have a nasty one, dragged out in court though.


That's the way mine was as well. The emotional rollercoaster was the ***** of it all. Although the paperwork and attorneys weren't all that fun either.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> My experience was that the actual legal divorce, paperwork, etc, was much less of a problem than the emotional turmoil of the split.
> 
> I didn't have a nasty one, dragged out in court though.


I went to court a year and a half ago, first time ever in a courtroom as well. Terrified going into it but by the end I was proud of myself for not only preparing as well as I did but in the end it gave me validation. The validation being I felt like I was being fair during the entire thing and in the end the courts agreed with me.

Craziest part is, while she was sitting in the waiting area talking to her online boyfriend I could feel the anger towards me. 5 months later we were taking the kids to a fair together. Lol.

Life is an odd thing at times.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I went to court a year and a half ago, first time ever in a courtroom as well. Terrified going into it but by the end I was proud of myself for not only preparing as well as I did but in the end it gave me validation. The validation being I felt like I was being fair during the entire thing and in the end the courts agreed with me.
> 
> Craziest part is, while she was sitting in the waiting area talking to her online boyfriend I could feel the anger towards me. 5 months later we were taking the kids to a fair together. Lol.
> 
> Life is an odd thing at times.


Haha. 

If you choose to step up and get sick of wallowing, these sh!t experiences are great character builders. 

A year and a half ago my X moved out. Relationship with T recently over. Both have given me more confidence. 

If I know I can get through it fine, hell even grow, why be afraid?


----------



## familyfirst09

Sorry to hear about your break up Z but glad to see you are, as always, handling it like a true gentleman. Now get the hell to Canada and make me some mother fvcking pancakes!!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

I'm making pancakes on Saturday ... and I'm already in Canada.


----------



## Chuck71

grits..................... ownly in da Sowth


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> I'm making pancakes on Saturday ... and I'm already in Canada.


You leave her griddle alone, Daddio. 

Unless you're throwing in fresh blueberries.


----------



## familyfirst09

Ok big daddy make me some pancakes then!!! I will supply the fresh blueberries 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> You leave her griddle alone, Daddio.
> 
> Unless you're throwing in fresh blueberries.





familyfirst09 said:


> Ok big daddy make me some pancakes then!!! I will supply the fresh blueberries
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Looks like she offered the blueberries all on her own.


----------



## familyfirst09

Only for you big daddy, only for you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

It's too early to blush.


----------



## familyfirst09

It's never too early to blush!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ihatethis

zillard said:


> Do you like pancakes?


Why, yes, yes I do. :smthumbup:


----------



## ihatethis

TheGoodGuy said:


> That's the way mine was as well. The emotional rollercoaster was the ***** of it all. Although the paperwork and attorneys weren't all that fun either.


We had a very quick divorce. Filed beginning of January, and it was finalized January 24th. We didn't hire lawyers or anything. We were civil about it all. Sometimes I think it would be easier if we hated each other, but we both just can't believe we're divorced. We continually say that we had such a unique relationship... it's quite sad because now I don't know how I'll find a relationship that is better.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Life is an odd thing at times.


It most certainly is. 

How often do we find ourselves somewhere we never thought we'd be? 

Roll with it. 

Embrace the present. 

And enjoy. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> It most certainly is.
> 
> How often do we find ourselves somewhere we never thought we'd be?
> 
> Roll with it.
> 
> Embrace the present.
> 
> And enjoy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree.

Sometimes that also means dropping all the philosophy and just living.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

06Daddio08 said:


> Sometimes that also means dropping all the philosophy and just living.


A good "philosophy" to live by


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



ThreeStrikes said:


> A good "philosophy" to live by


Lol. I knew that was coming. It's good to turn the brain off sometimes.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> It most certainly is.
> 
> How often do we find ourselves somewhere we never thought we'd be?
> 
> Roll with it.
> 
> Embrace the present.
> 
> And enjoy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aerosmith - Back In The Saddle - Live 1977 - YouTube


----------



## zillard

Chuck71 said:


> Aerosmith - Back In The Saddle - Live 1977 - YouTube


Haha. Yeahhh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

Anyone remember that April Fools prank I pulled? Well, it has happened in real life. At a level I never expected. 

I know many here will disagree, and I don't give a sh!t. 

I'm reconciling with my X. New Z sees this as a good thing. This is right in so many ways. And I can say that with confidence.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Anyone remember that April Fools prank I pulled? Well, it has happened in real life. At a level I never expected.
> 
> I know many here will disagree, and I don't give a sh!t.
> 
> I'm reconciling with my X. New Z sees this as a good thing. This is right in so many ways. And I can say that with confidence.


Is she going to move by you?
Hey you know what you are getting into it's all good.
Take it one day at a time.


----------



## Chuck71

yeah, we all got a Hee-Haw from it LOL

now I have tom t hall flashbacks

it's your fault LOL

sound familiar?


----------



## Ceegee

zillard said:


> Anyone remember that April Fools prank I pulled? Well, it has happened in real life. At a level I never expected.
> 
> I know many here will disagree, and I don't give a sh!t.
> 
> I'm reconciling with my X. New Z sees this as a good thing. This is right in so many ways. And I can say that with confidence.


Sorry, I've been away for awhile. Did I miss anyth....wait what?


----------



## zillard

Yes. Before the D, she vowed she would never live here. And she meant it.

She is now willing to move wherever I want, without financial assistance from me. Home is wherever D and I live.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Anyone remember that April Fools prank I pulled? Well, it has happened in real life. At a level I never expected.
> 
> I know many here will disagree, and I don't give a sh!t.
> 
> I'm reconciling with my X. New Z sees this as a good thing. This is right in so many ways. And I can say that with confidence.












If she is willing to grow in life with you and if you have moved on past the point where her actions no longer harm you the same way. Then sure. 

I wouldn't call it reconciling, I would call it, "dating from scratch with a bit of history." 

Think that girl you knew a few years back who left you for another guy but now realizes that it was a mistake? Yeah that *could* work. Just remember, you can't fall for her ship twice.


----------



## tom67

Somewhere Conrad's head is spinning
The Exorcist (3/5) Movie CLIP - Head Spin (1973) HD - YouTube


----------



## zillard

hope4family said:


> If she is willing to grow in life with you and if you have moved on past the point where her actions no longer harm you the same way. Then sure.
> 
> I wouldn't call it reconciling, I would call it, "dating from scratch with a bit of history."
> 
> Think that girl you knew a few years back who left you for another guy but now realizes that it was a mistake? Yeah that *could* work. Just remember, you can't fall for her ship twice.


Old Z is dead. 

New Z will not tolerate BS and demands respect. 

IC and MC is a must. She's 150% on board.


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Um, what?


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> Somewhere Conrad's head is spinning
> The Exorcist (3/5) Movie CLIP - Head Spin (1973) HD - YouTube


Conrad is on board. Offline.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> Conrad is on board. Offline.


Just my morbid attempt at humor.

I know you are going to be fine whether or not this is successful.


----------



## zillard

tom67 said:


> Just my morbid attempt at humor.
> 
> I know you are going to be fine whether or not this is successful.


I have zero guarantees. 

And I know I will be fine. Either way.


----------



## Chuck71

D8 may be the biggest winner

I'm sure your thoughts are there


----------



## Ceegee

What do you see reconciling looking like, initially?


----------



## Pluto2

Bravery.
I wish you much peace and happiness.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> What do you see reconciling looking like, initially?


Initially, long hard conversations. Observing behavior in extremely stressful situations. Enforcing boundaries. Watching to see if respect is present. Gauging interactions. Analyzing motives. Intentionally testing waters. Removing filters and speaking honestly, instantly, and looking for the same. Watching to see if self restraint is present. Looking for self awareness. Listening for true remorse. Acknowledging when it occurs. Accepting reality vs searching for delusion. 

And walking away when necessary.


----------



## hope4family

Honestly, I am OK if you want to go as far as "reconciling." 

You have been separate long enough that you have grown. The reasons for separation are still there. The important part hopefully is that the "sting of it." The "mind movies" all that drama bs in your brain is hopefully gone.

A good place to start, is where you don't see that.


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Initially, long hard conversations. Observing behavior in extremely stressful situations. Enforcing boundaries. Watching to see if respect is present. Gauging interactions. Analyzing motives. Intentionally testing waters. Removing filters and speaking honestly, instantly, and looking for the same. Watching to see if self restraint is present. Looking for self awareness. Listening for true remorse. Acknowledging when it occurs. Accepting reality vs searching for delusion.
> 
> And walking away when necessary.


you once posted, she was a wonderful W until.... the last year

you dissected each fact that led up to the "I don't know"

I know for you it is, D8 and you

you are one of the "other three"... you, GP and Group

GP is doing great with his W now, I swear I hope you do too

I have no clue on Group but if three of us four R, I hope

he follows with you and GP. The one factor that was different is,

we had no kids. I will take the ultimate sacrifice and date

numerous women :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

while you R with wives


----------



## ThreeStrikes

Chuck71 said:


> I will take the ultimate sacrifice and date
> 
> numerous women :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> while you R with wives


I'm making the same sacrifice :rofl:


----------



## zillard

The divorce was absolutely necessary and completely warranted. 

She acknowledges that. Neither of us would be where we are without it. I do not regret it.

She knows now that I had to do it, and does not blame me. She is finally accepting personal accountability. 

I've openly told her that I fell for T, and residuals there still exist and will. 

The things I was looking for before I moved away with D8, are now there. There is no more "I don't know". She knows exactly what she wants. And that fits very well with what I want.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

zillard said:


> Initially, long hard conversations. Observing behavior in extremely stressful situations. Enforcing boundaries. Watching to see if respect is present. Gauging interactions. Analyzing motives. Intentionally testing waters. Removing filters and speaking honestly, instantly, and looking for the same. Watching to see if self restraint is present. Looking for self awareness. Listening for true remorse. Acknowledging when it occurs. Accepting reality vs searching for delusion.
> 
> And walking away when necessary.


Sounds like way to much work to be worth it. 

Best of luck to you, Z.


----------



## zillard

3Xnocharm said:


> Sounds like way to much work to be worth it.
> 
> Best of luck to you, Z.


Personally, that's all something that I would do in any relationship.

I did that in my last one. T couldn't hack it. 

X is embracing it. 

So it goes.


----------



## Chuck71

I do hope you request breakfast in bed, while she is wearing French Maid

outfit. lol we spoke of this last year lol


----------



## hope4family

I like what I am reading. So naturally it would have a blessing. 

I agree, any relationship IS that much work. That is what makes it pleasurable and gives you the "high" when feelings are reciprocated.


----------



## zillard

When dropping off d8 an unfortunate thing happened. As bad as it was, it was actually very fortunate. While I was there her grandmother had a massive heart attack. Fell and hit her head. I picked the woman up as x alerted the paramedics. 2 minutes later and the woman would have died. In icu for a week. Not good, but I had an excellent opportunity to observe x in the situation. Long story short, I was incredibly impressed. It was not the woman that I divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThreeStrikes

zillard said:


> Personally, that's all something that I would do in any relationship.
> 
> I did that in my last one. T couldn't hack it.
> 
> X is embracing it.
> 
> So it goes.


I would have liked to see you date around, Z.

My gut isn't feeling it. I think she just wants her security blankey back.

I hope you aren't doing this to prove something, if you know what I mean.


----------



## zillard

ThreeStrikes said:


> I would have liked to see you date around, Z.
> 
> My gut isn't feeling it. I think she just wants her security blankey back.
> 
> I hope you aren't doing this to prove something, if you know what I mean.


I hear you. But my gut IS feeling it. And I know now that it is my gut. 

Will it work? I don't know. 

I'm OK with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

She had an opportunity to come "home" with me immediately. 

Instead she chose to stay with her grandparents and care for them during the heart attack recovery. That is extremely stressful for her. They are at the point where they do not appreciate her help (and rile against it), even though they really do need it. 

She is staying until she can train her aunt how to take care of the medications and hopefully secure an in-home caregiver. Her employer is working on a transfer for her to my location. 

I've told her I won't be a sugar daddy and she needs to pull her own weight. She acknowledges that working is a must for personal fulfillment and night shifts away from us is a no go, as it facilitated past issues between us. 

During the stress of near death and ICU, she started emotionally dumping on me. I was there for support but had my limits. When my limit was reached I told her so and exited the room. The next night it continued but before I could even say anything she saw herself. "I'm doing it again" and she left the room to process on her own without dumping on me. 

That was very different from the woman I divorced, who would have continued to the point of anger and personal attacks. Even in this stressful situation she was very respectful and in the morning immediately apologized, even when it was unnecessary.


----------



## Lifescript

Z, this is good. I'm happy for you and D8.


----------



## 06Daddio08

Good luck Zillard. My only advice; stay away from this place for large periods of time while you work on your life.


----------



## zillard

06Daddio08 said:


> Good luck Zillard. My only advice; stay away from this place for large periods of time while you work on your life.


Tam is great for steeling your heart and moving on post divorce. But there are so many people here that are way too jaded to ever encourage a reconciliation attempt, even when it could be good. 

I deeply feel that this could work and our relationship could be better than it ever was. 

I will proceed accordingly. 

I didn't think this would ever happen. I'm glad that it did and am hopeful. 

If it doesn't work, I'll see you soon. If you don't hear from me, let it be hope for others.

Sometimes things DO work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lifescript

If things don't work out (hope they do) are you prepared to deal with the guilty feelings or emotions of D8 having to see her parents split up again. 

Is the plan for her to move in with you right away or later on?


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> If things don't work out (hope they do) are you prepared to deal with the guilty feelings or emotions of D8 having to see her parents split up again.
> 
> Is the plan for her to move in with you right away or later on?


Hopefully that doesn't happen. 

But that risk is always there, be it X, T, or etc.

The risk is not great enough for me to live alone for the next decade, even though many of the femi-nazis will disagree. 

If it works, it's a great benefit for D8. If it doesn't, it's a great hardship to overcome. With counseling and good parenting (alone or otherwise), it can be a good life lesson if approached correctly. 

I'm not one to play it safe for a decade out of fear.


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Hopefully that doesn't happen.
> 
> But that risk is always there, be it X, T, or etc.
> 
> I'm not one to play it safe for a decade out of fear.


BOOM! It's all just preference when you get down to it and what you can deal with. 

Let's face it, if we didn't have problems we wouldn't be here. If we didn't feel like we had a problem we also wouldn't be here. 

You have grown and found awareness.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> Hopefully that doesn't happen.
> 
> But that risk is always there, be it X, T, or etc.
> 
> The risk is not great enough for me to live alone for the next decade, even though many of the femi-nazis will disagree.
> 
> If it works, it's a great benefit for D8. If it doesn't, it's a great hardship to overcome. With counseling and good parenting (alone or otherwise), it can be a good life lesson if approached correctly.
> 
> I'm not one to play it safe for a decade out of fear.


Your mind/heart is in the right place. This is sort of where I was the last time I took her back. Didn't want fear of failing again to control my actions. Difference here is it seems she really hit bottom. I'm rooting for ya. It's crazy how things change.


----------



## zillard

Lifescript said:


> Your mind/heart is in the right place. This is sort of where I was the last time I took her back. Didn't want fear of failing again to control my actions. Difference here is it seems she really hit bottom. I'm rooting for ya. It's crazy how things change.


She definitely hit bottom. No question.

Once again she's "hell yeah" wifey. Whatever it takes.

Can she / will she maintain that? 

I don't know.

Is it worth a shot? 

hell yeah


----------



## TheGoodGuy

While I'm slightly shocked, I wish you good luck Z. Will Ex-Mrs. Z be getting a TAM account?


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



TheGoodGuy said:


> Will Ex-Mrs. Z be getting a TAM account?


I hope not.


----------



## zillard

I know when T reads this or sees us on FB, she'll think I'm retarded. 

Oh well. 

She had many chances, and decided this wasn't for her. 

No matter what happened, the mother of my child and decade-long partner deserves a second chance - now that she's willing to own her sh!t and work for it. Something that the amazing Tiger was not willing to do. 

C'est la vie.


----------



## vi_bride04

Remember, actions not words. And no pedestals.

Good luck.


----------



## zillard

vi_bride04 said:


> Remember, actions not words. And no pedestals.
> 
> Good luck.


No pedestals. Ever again. 

I will treat her like a Queen. But only if I'm treated like a King.


----------



## tom67

zillard said:


> No pedestals. Ever again.
> 
> I will treat her like a Queen. But only if I'm treated like a King.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Don't forget that!!!


----------



## Chuck71

I am glad you commented on the people being jaded

and the femi-nazis. I have spoken to OB-1 about that

several times. My parents did this. If they didn't, I would

not be here. Pop would have chuckled and said, "them's

retreads." We just give you support, say you're a lunatic,

and drop 2x4s. At the end of the day, only you decide who

you go home to. Being alone may be the thing for some,

but not for others. If I put my life on hold for a decade everytime 

something horrible came up, I would die before getting out

of the 'hold' period.


----------



## Lifescript

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



zillard said:


> No pedestals. Ever again.
> 
> I will treat her like a Queen. But only if I'm treated like a King.


Like Denzel says ... "my man!"


----------



## Ms. GP

Congrats man. From my experience, it's really nice to have your family under one roof. It's also really nice to have a relationship where both people are committed to working on themselves and the marriage. Were there big fights where we both fell into old dysfunctional patterns of behavior? Sure, but once your eyes are open it's hard to stay there for long. I agree with the certain facets of TAM being jaded. You will be fine. I'm not worried. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vi_bride04

zillard said:


> No pedestals. Ever again.
> 
> I will treat her like a Queen. But only if I'm treated like a King.


A throne is a type of pedestal  lol


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



vi_bride04 said:


> A throne is a type of pedestal  lol


There's a difference between treating someone well and making them into an idol. A throne isn't a pedestal when you're sitting right next to them in one as well.


----------



## jr92gp

I am not surprised at the news. You had mentioned that you had been talking to her while things were rocky with T.

How did the two of you come to the point where discussion regarding reconciliation became a reality? I'm curious as to how the communication was established. Also, do you fear that this is a rebound from the T relationship?

Regardless of what happens, the progress you have made on yourself will carry you through and give you the strength and insight to make the right decisions for you and your daughter.


----------



## hope4family

jr92gp said:


> I am not surprised at the news. You had mentioned that you had been talking to her while things were rocky with T.
> 
> *How did the two of you come to the point where discussion regarding reconciliation became a reality? I'm curious as to how the communication was established. Also, do you fear that this is a rebound from the T relationship?*
> 
> Regardless of what happens, the progress you have made on yourself will carry you through and give you the strength and insight to make the right decisions for you and your daughter.


I'm reading between the lines here from Z's posts. But if I had my best hypothesis. I would say that ex has apologized, committed to work on herself, and realizes the mistakes made. 

It also helps that Z has moved on to become a better man which combined, that, her ability to want to work on herself, and with 10 years of an already established marriage makes it a very attractive package for both parties. 

I can fully commit to saying if the above is true then I am jealous because it's a winning combination that gives him the best risk/reward type return.


----------



## HappyKaty

zillard said:


> Tam is great for steeling your heart and moving on post divorce. *But there are so many people here that are way too jaded to ever encourage a reconciliation attempt, even when it could be good. *


Truer words have never been spoken! 

Best wishes to you and your family, sweetie! I'm super excited for y'all!


----------



## hope4family

HappyKaty said:


> Truer words have never been spoken!
> 
> Best wishes to you and your family, sweetie! I'm super excited for y'all!


I have close family members who ended up reconciling. 

If they had logged into this site, they would have been immediately told to divorce and never look back. 

Who knows how their story will end. But for now, I see them both as happy.


----------



## HappyKaty

hope4family said:


> If they had logged into this site, they would have been immediately told to divorce and never look back.


Bitterness is a hard pill to swallow. I know. It took me a couple of years to get it down.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



hope4family said:


> I have close family members who ended up reconciling.
> 
> If they had logged into this site, they would have been immediately told to divorce and never look back.
> 
> Who knows how their story will end. But for now, I see them both as happy.


I've had 3 people in my personal life come to me about relationships ending. Two of them I told to go for everyone their legally entitled to (aka go with the separation) and the other I said I'd back him on whatever he chose. All I did was give my opinion on those possible choices he had.

My advice to Zillard about steering away from here while reconciling is on the same grounds as when I suggested he keep what T said to himself. It's about boundaries. If he doesn't agree, more power to him but from my side of things I won't be going into details on any further relationships. I find it disrespectful if it's not agreed upon beforehand.

Plus, I've seen members advise sharing it all and getting their exes to sign up. The only reason for that; the entertainment they got out of it.


----------



## Lifescript

I'm glad I tried to reconcile in the past despite some opposition from some TAM members. It didn't work out and that's ok. The thing is a lot of people here are too jaded like Z said. But in the end is your life to live and you (not anybody here) will have to face the consequences of the actions taken. I'm sure there have been some salvageable relationships that have ended because the BS took the advice to divorce to heart, sometimes against his/her own wishes. 

The best advice is the one that is given from an unbiased position.


----------



## zillard

jr92gp said:


> How did the two of you come to the point where discussion regarding reconciliation became a reality?


Over the span of a few months she sent multiple apologies and I love yous. We talked more, but kept things friendly. 

Then I received THAT email. The big one. The "you'll know remorse when you see it" one. She clearly sat on that one for some time before building the courage to send it.

She has humbled herself and is willing to do things she would not do before. She's admitting things about herself. She's acknowledging her BS and Fups and asking for the chance to do something about it.


----------



## jr92gp

zillard said:


> Then I received THAT email. The big one.


How did receipt of that make you feel?

In my case my feelings towards how I would feel receiving something like that have gone through many changes. First it was hope, then changed to something darker. More like an ego boosting "I told you so.". Now it's not expected and almost not even desired.


----------



## zillard

jr92gp said:


> How did receipt of that make you feel?
> 
> In my case my feelings towards how I would feel receiving something like that have gone through many changes. First it was hope, then changed to something darker. More like an ego boosting "I told you so.". Now it's not expected and almost not even desired.


It was not expected. 

I was very surprised, and proud of her. It instantly rang true, and even though we are now reconnecting, and I'm forgiving her, she is still apologizing.


----------



## Garry2012

Wow...so the bigger question is...NOW where will you be posting your threads?


----------



## zillard

I suppose a move to the Reconciliation thread makes sense.


----------



## Chuck71

what about What to do with "I might now know".


----------



## TheGoodGuy

06Daddio08 said:


> Plus, I've seen members advise sharing it all and getting their exes to sign up. The only reason for that; the entertainment they got out of it.


I hear you Daddio, and I'm sure you're right, there are some that get some sort of entertainment out of it. However I was thinking of GPs wife when she joined up. There were definitely some hard questions at first, but then she was able to share in the responses as to how they were doing going through their reconciliation.

I found it refreshing.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



TheGoodGuy said:


> I hear you Daddio, and I'm sure you're right, there are some that get some sort of entertainment out of it. However I was thinking of GPs wife when she joined up. There were definitely some hard questions at first, but then she was able to share in the responses as to how they were doing going through their reconciliation.
> 
> I found it refreshing.


I see what you're saying. I feel Zillard has this under control all on his own.


----------



## zillard

"Fool me once, and it's on you. Fool me twice, and it's on me." 

The way I see it, that phrase is not an argument against forgiveness. 

How better to work through trust issues than with the one who burned you. 

Actually, if you go a step further and don't take things personally, you can see that actions of the WS were never about us to begin with. Our suffering comes from our delusions not aligning with reality. 

Feeling burned is only possible when we fool ourselves. 

And that is not an argument against personal accountability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zillard

TheGoodGuy said:


> I hear you Daddio, and I'm sure you're right, there are some that get some sort of entertainment out of it. However I was thinking of GPs wife when she joined up. There were definitely some hard questions at first, but then she was able to share in the responses as to how they were doing going through their reconciliation.
> 
> I found it refreshing.


She still reads here. Hard questions and harsh feedback here are heard. 

Right now the biggest step for us both is courage. 

She has found the courage to admit her faults, apologize, show remorse and profess her love. With no assurances that it would be received well. 

She now must find the courage to quit her job, leave what little family she has left, and move to a state she doesn't like. Knowing that if things don't work out, she's back to square one.

I am finding the courage to trust her and believe that her feelings and commitment are genuine. Courage to have self restraint when I trigger so as not to throw her faults in her face out of anger. To be open and not walk on eggshells. To lead without fixing. And work on my own sh!t through it all, rather than focusing on hers.


----------



## jr92gp

Perfect love casts out fear. Where there is love there are no demands, no expectations, no dependency. I do not demand that you make me happy; my happiness does not lie in you. --DeMello

Seemed fitting after your last couple posts.


----------



## Wolf9

I have started reading this thread after getting general idea of Z's case from his first thread as a example of happy journey of BS. When Z mentioned for first time that his XW had accidently read his threads on TAM, I was predicting that there's going to be at least attempt at R in near future. The way Z had handled his life after D is very healthy & it's not surprising that your XW is finding you attractive due to excellent parenting of daughter, your life in general with new perspective & motto about boundries in relationship & even effective 180 of XW last year particularly during Christmas trip. There was no BS of let's pretend to be friendly after messy D.

It's not typical case of plan B either as there was a divorce & then after that a very good period of self relfection for his XW. As Z had already dated in between so it has definately helped to improve his sex rank. In cases of R after affair without D, forgiving is very difficult. Mind movies are painful & there's very large period of self loathing despite being in IC. But in case of Z, due to D & moving away quickly 180 was effective & hence it was easier for him to concentrate on IC with new perspective.


I am not big fan of I love yous made while wanting R due to nostologic feeling of wanting old life back rather than attraction or romantic love for BS but if she had indeed read this thread then I believe those are genuine. Irrespective of outcome I think you are making good decision of giving it another try & new Z is capable of handling any outcome efficiently.

It's going to bumpy & interesting road ahead. Don't delete these threads as they are excellent reminders of your journey in last two years. Managing your D's expectations regarding R is going to be difficult but I bet she is going to be very happy if her Mom moves in your state.


----------



## Chuck71

I told Z if he deletes the threads, I will kidnap him, lock him in a room

with my X and she will do peep shows for him for six months 

his threads are safe :rofl:


----------



## zillard

Wolf9 said:


> I have started reading this thread after getting general idea of Z's case from his first thread as a example of happy journey of BS. When Z mentioned for first time that his XW had accidently read his threads on TAM, I was predicting that there's going to be at least attempt at R in near future. The way Z had handled his life after D is very healthy & it's not surprising that your XW is finding you attractive due to excellent parenting of daughter, your life in general with new perspective & motto about boundries in relationship & even effective 180 of XW last year particularly during Christmas trip. There was no BS of let's pretend to be friendly after messy D.
> 
> It's not typical case of plan B either as there was a divorce & then after that a very good period of self relfection for his XW. As Z had already dated in between so it has definately helped to improve his sex rank. In cases of R after affair without D, forgiving is very difficult. Mind movies are painful & there's very large period of self loathing despite being in IC. But in case of Z, due to D & moving away quickly 180 was effective & hence it was easier for him to concentrate on IC with new perspective.
> 
> 
> I am not big fan of I love yous made while wanting R due to nostologic feeling of wanting old life back rather than attraction or romantic love for BS but if she had indeed read this thread then I believe those are genuine. Irrespective of outcome I think you are making good decision of giving it another try & new Z is capable of handling any outcome efficiently.
> 
> It's going to bumpy & interesting road ahead. Don't delete these threads as they are excellent reminders of your journey in last two years. Managing your D's expectations regarding R is going to be difficult but I bet she is going to be very happy if her Mom moves in your state.


This is how I see it, Wolf.

Last night a good night call turned into a long, hard conversation that lasted almost until dawn. 

At one point it started entering into a area where I was uncomfortable. I triggered and began to end the conversation. She pushed a little bit, respectfully, to get deeper understanding and continue. From there it was very productive. 

More discussion on counseling, triggers, boundaries, respectful communication, and transparency. We both honestly expressed concerns and discussed how to work through them, together. 

She's making progress with preparing for the move. 

This will be difficult. With a very real possibility of a huge payoff for us all.

I really like what I'm seeing.


----------



## hope4family

It's very easy to call this a winning formula. Does that mean it will work? No, but it means that the recipe is in place for success. 

As far as mind movies go. Well the D was a consequence of the betrayal. The price to some extent has been paid and it's up to Z to setup boundaries from here. However, those post D boundaries do not appear to dismiss the idea of a R if the recipe for it is there. 

I'll repeat. This doesn't mean it will work, but the recipe for success is there.


----------



## zillard

It's up to her to set boundaries as well. Boundaries for others she interacts with, and boundaries for herself that I must try to respect. 

I do have my own faults and did some things wrong leading her to feel unloved and unappreciated. 

In order to prevent things from breaking down in the future, it's in the best interest of the relationship for me to work on those things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## familyfirst09

Being with you, from almost the start, I just want to say...you dumb azz!! lol I'm kidding!! I think it's great!!!

Many who know me know I tried for months and months (and months ugh) to reconcile with my ex and took it upon myself to correct my own stupid behaviour and mistakes. So to see your ex do this and for YOU to be willing to give this a try, knowing you will be okay one way or the other, is absolutely terrific. I wish you much love and happiness xo
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 06Daddio08

I think it's important to recognize the changes but to also make sure you don't get too enthusiastic as well. So it doesn't blind you. If that makes any sense.


----------



## zillard

Makes sense. This will definitely be a process. We can't just jump back in as if nothing happened, and this relationship can not be the one we had before. It is new. And it is starting off with real problems that will take hard work, perpetually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

Glad to see she has gained a better perspective - awareness. 

Would love to hear, from her, the work she put in and the experiences she had to gain this awareness.


----------



## zillard

Ceegee said:


> Glad to see she has gained a better perspective - awareness.
> 
> Would love to hear, from her, the work she put in and the experiences she had to gain this awareness.


That's up to her. I doubt she'll post here and I don't blame her. 

I can say her dating experiences since D have helped put things in perspective. As T was a great learning experience for me, and being around my family more has been great practice in enforcing boundaries, etc, she has had her own learning experiences. And used them to grow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf9

zillard said:


> That's up to her. I doubt she'll post here and I don't blame her.
> 
> I can say her dating experiences since D have helped put things in perspective. As T was a great learning experience for me, and being around my family more has been great practice in enforcing boundaries, etc, she has had her own learning experiences. And used them to grow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What is your opinion about getting idea about dating experiences of Ex during period of separation? Any deal breakers in that regard or it's best to not discuss that at all with fresh start like any other new relationship.


----------



## 06Daddio08

*Re: Re: From A to Z*



Wolf9 said:


> What is your opinion about getting idea about dating experiences of Ex during period of separation? Any deal breakers in that regard or it's best to not discuss that at all with fresh start like any other new relationship.


That's a 2 way street, if walked on.


----------



## zillard

Wolf9 said:


> What is your opinion about getting idea about dating experiences of Ex during period of separation? Any deal breakers in that regard or it's best to not discuss that at all with fresh start like any other new relationship.


We were divorced. It doesn't matter. 

She's read my writings here, so has an idea about mine. She's shared some, in regards to what she's learned she does and does not want in a relationship. 

That's enough.


----------



## zillard

Yesterday was the 9th anniversary of my brother's passing. He was exactly 2 years older me and my best friend growing up. 

I had a party at my house to celebrate him. Food, fire and drink in the back yard. 

My next older (tattoo artist) brother showed up with two women. Had a good time. At the end of the night he wanted to stay in my spare room with both of them. I found out one is married. 

I promptly kicked her out. 

Bro left with them both, upset that I wasn't playing the good wingman card. Too bad. Regardless of my situation, I'm not ok with married women sleeping at my house. 

Go home!


----------



## hope4family

zillard said:


> Yesterday was the 9th anniversary of my brother's passing. He was exactly 2 years older me and my best friend growing up.
> 
> I had a party at my house to celebrate him. Food, fire and drink in the back yard.
> 
> My next older (tattoo artist) brother showed up with two women. Had a good time. At the end of the night he wanted to stay in my spare room with both of them. I found out one is married.
> 
> I promptly kicked her out.
> 
> *Bro left with them both, upset that I wasn't playing the good wingman card. Too bad. Regardless of my situation, I'm not ok with married women sleeping at my house.
> 
> Go home!*


That's a powerfully good feeling isn't it?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

zillard said:


> Yesterday was the 9th anniversary of my brother's passing. He was exactly 2 years older me and my best friend growing up.
> 
> I had a party at my house to celebrate him. Food, fire and drink in the back yard.
> 
> My next older (tattoo artist) brother showed up with two women. Had a good time. At the end of the night he wanted to stay in my spare room with both of them. I found out one is married.
> 
> I promptly kicked her out.
> 
> Bro left with them both, upset that I wasn't playing the good wingman card. Too bad. Regardless of my situation, I'm not ok with married women sleeping at my house.
> 
> Go home!


Fantastic, well done Z!


----------



## Chuck71

somehow......through the gossip mill, it would have grown to

Z and a married woman were very affectionate towards each other

give a rumor a social media outlet

its like giving a fire oxygen


----------



## Pam

I have ridden along with you from the start. I wish you great success in this next step in your life.


----------



## Lone Shadow

Z, I've been reading this for the past week on and off. For a while I was really pulling for you and Tiger, but I get the boundary issues. I wish you and X the best. I can't recall if it was you or someone else that posted the responsibility quote some 20-odd pages back, but thank you for that, and for sharing your journey. I'm just getting started on mine, and reading this has helped me immensely with processing the situation I find myself in. 

Again, thank you. And best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

zillard said:


> Thank you. I think she overestimated my attachment to her (vs love for her) and underestimated my boundaries.
> 
> It was strange to be the dumper instead of the dumpee. I underestimated the guilt that comes along with it when you truly care about the person.


I see EXACTLY what you mean. Very well spoken. Can relate all too well.


----------

