# Wife wants to leave, but still loves me?



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Hello,
I know there are a lot of similar stories out there, but I really need to vent.

My wife just told me that she is leaving me. We have been together for 11 years, married for 6. We have no kids, but we do have 2 cats and a very high maintenance dog. There has been no mental or physical abuse, infidelity, or any other major event. We have seen a counselor twice in the last couple weeks, and it actually seemed to make things worse from her point of view. The counselor brought up a lot of really good points and I now see things from her eyes. I thought my wife saw the same thing.

My wife has always complained about things that I do. Specifically about me criticizing her. I see it as me trying to make our lives better together by getting things out in the open. She just sees me tearing her down. I never realized how much this hurt her until literally the other day when the counselor advised us to take the love language quiz. When I read the explanation of hers: 'Words of Affirmation', I get it. All those things I say just destroy her inside.

I truly didn't know that this kind of thing bothered her that much. I tend to let stuff like that roll off my back. Things like, "Please don't buy any more cereal, we already have a year's supply". Or "please let me wash my uniforms from now on, you just ruined my shirt." This is no exaggeration, and I don't know how much nicer to say things like this. 

Since we found out our love languages, I have been doing everything I can to lavish praise and kind words on her. She is basically telling me that my efforts lately are too little and much too late. But I only realized what I needed to do to fix things a few days ago...

I feel like she is rushing this, and not giving me a chance to change. She tells me that I had years to change, but didnt. She says that she still loves me, will always love me. But maybe she just can't handle the truth; that she doesn't love me anymore?

My question is, why did we just start seeing a counselor a couple weeks ago if she already made up her mind to leave?

What have I done in the last couple weeks to push her away?

Can I get her to change her mind at this point? She is actually out right now presumably signing papers at an apartment complex and getting boxes from the store so she can pack.

She asked for a separation about a month ago, and then again a week ago. Both times I told her no, and that if counseling didn't work, we need a divorce. (STUPID) I had major misconceptions about separations, and have read a lot about them since then. I would be all for a constructive separation, but now SHE says no.

I will do anything to save my marriage, but I don't know what move to make right now. Everything I do seems to make her want to leave more. I actually think she wants me to give her a real reason to leave. She actually asked me if I wanted to hit her today, and then said that it would be ok if I did. WHAT?! The thought has NEVER crossed my mind, and I can't believe she would say something like that.

I can't think straight. On top of me losing the love of my life, I am going to lose my two best friends. Both my wife and my dog. There is no way I can take care of him on my own.

Maybe no one can help, but maybe someone can. I've always been completely honest with her, and the last two weeks I have opened up to her more than in the last 11 years combined. I have done everything but literally get on my knees and beg her to stay.

Any advice would be appreciated, and thank you so much for reading.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't think I mentioned that I'm not perfect, but neither is she. All this time I had my own complaints, but there is nothing about her that I couldn't live with. I just figured that the feeling was mutual. After all, is there such a thing as a perfect marriage? 

People are going to get on each other's nerves, its just how you handle that scenario that counts.

I think its too late. I'm reading about the 180, and I might as well give it a try, but I think she wants to move out in the next day or two.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I don't think I mentioned that I'm not perfect, but neither is she. All this time I had my own complaints, but there is nothing about her that I couldn't live with. I just figured that the feeling was mutual. After all, is there such a thing as a perfect marriage?
> 
> People are going to get on each other's nerves, its just how you handle that scenario that counts.
> 
> I think its too late. I'm reading about the 180, and I might as well give it a try, but I think she wants to move out in the next day or two.


Hi Unwind. Just because she moves out, doesn't mean it's too late. You can absolutely do the 180, but do it for yourself, not because you think it will win her back. 

Have you scheduled another MC session and if so is she willing to go with you? If she refuses, perhaps putting it to her in terms of learning about yourselves so that you don't make the same mistakes in future relationships might at least get her in the MC door. Have you considered IC? sounds like you have some interpersonal skills to work on. If you really talk to your wife like the examples you gave, no wonder she has had it!

When you say that people get on each other's nerves and it's all in how you handle it, you sound like my husband! He never got how a person's actions can drive another person to distraction. You are partly right and partly wrong. We can't control people, we can can only control how we react to what they do. HOWEVER, if you know that something you do really bothers the person you love, then why would you continue doing it? Sounds like you now realize how damaging your words could be and are trying to change. Be careful not to overdo the praise however. In large amounts, it can sound phoney. 

If she continues with her plans to move out, keep doing the 180. Work on yourself. She will notice the difference. Whether it gets her back or not, its the best thing you can do for yourself. And please, get some help with those interpersonal skills. Learn how to talk to people you care about.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

We had a counseling appt for Thursday, and I asked her if she cancelled it. She hadn't, and I asked her not to, and told her that I would go alone. I need to talk to someone about this. She surprised me though, and asked me if I wanted her to go with. My first reaction, was "why?". But then I took it back immediately and said "Yes I want you to go with me". I am leaving it at that until our appointment. She tells me this as she is packing boxes.

What is going on here? She tells me she wants to leave, gets an apartment that she will move into tomorrow, tells me NO separation just divorce. Now she is interested in going to our counseling session that we scheduled last week.

I am so confused, and in real physical pain over this.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

FrostFlower, thank you so much for responding.

I have told her that I would go to individual counseling, but it seems to fall in the too little too late category. I know I have plenty to work on, but I truly only learned of the distress she was in just recently. I hate that this has been going on for years, but only now we have been communicating effectively about it. Now that we are doing that, I am able to make changes, but its too late.

I will do the 180. Like you said, if nothing else it can only make me a better person.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

No separation, straight to divorce, but willing to go to MC with you....she sounds confused. Go to counselling with her. Give her time and spac, even it that involves her moving out. Work on yourself. It is a shame that you have finally understood the impact of the way you speak to her and she is ready to call it quits. But don't plead for more time. Let her go if that is what she needs. then speak to her respectfully whenever you do interact.

If she has been feeling hurt for years, but hasn't said anything, then she is partly responsible for the mess you are in. You are obviously not a mind reader. Did she try to tell you that your way of speaking to her was tearing her down? Perhaps she did and you didn't 'get it'.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

She has told me how she felt, but no, I didn't get it. My thought process was somewhere along the lines of "What she is doing irritates me, so what if it irritates her when I criticize her about it? Maybe that will get her to stop doing irritating things." Since I was able to live with it, I figured so was she.

She is moving out now. I am helping her load the truck. I am trying so hard to hold myself together, but not having much success. She still says that she'll go to our MC appointment tomorrow, and that she wants to call this a separation for a week. I asked her the goal of the separation, and she got angry. I dropped it. I honestly don't know what she's thinking about.

I said that since she wants to call this a separation at first that meant there is hope. I don't know her exact words but she said something along the lines of "no, I don't want to give you hope". (she said it much nicer somehow)


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I said that since she wants to call this a separation at first that meant there is hope. I don't know her exact words but she said something along the lines of "no, I don't want to give you hope". (she said it much nicer somehow)


You talking way too much. She is feeling smothered by you right now. Your insecurity will push her away even further if you don't get it in check. Trust me, I know. I made this mistake

Detach. Give her space. Let her come to you.

It will be the hardest thing you have ever done. But its your only chance.

Continue to push her for answers, and there's not a chance in hell she is ever coming back.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Spun, I agree. Thank you.

It is the hardest thing to do, but I am trying.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> It is the hardest thing to do, but I am trying.


Come here every time you want to reach out to her to find out what she is thinking.

Post your insanity. Listen to what people are telling you here. The collective knowledge and wisdom is indispensable

You may get a smack upside the head now and then. 

But if you do, you deserve it.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Unwind,

I was your wife. Down to the "Words of Affirmation" being my love language and feeling like I was at the end of my rope. 

It sounds like you WANT it to work so that is a good thing. My advice is to listen to her, empathize with her, and tell her you are committed to your marriage and seeing it through. Tell her you realize you've been wrong and want to make an effort to change/impove that and that you want her to also participate. 

If she is game, awesome. Don't pressure her. If she's not, then all you can do is concede.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks guys, it feels good to talk to someone about this.

Jellybeans, I have admitted fault and told her I can and will change. She says that I cant, won't, and she doesn't want me to change. I told her I would change careers (I'm a pilot and gone a few nights a week). She says no way. She has shot down every single idea I have had over the last two weeks.

It is painful and terrifying, but I think the best thing to do at this point is to wave goodbye. Hopefully she will come back.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks guys, it feels good to talk to someone about this.
> 
> Jellybeans, I have admitted fault and told her I can and will change. She says that I cant, won't, and she doesn't want me to change. I told her I would change careers (I'm a pilot and gone a few nights a week). She says no way. She has shot down every single idea I have had over the last two weeks.
> 
> It is painful and terrifying, but I think the best thing to do at this point is to wave goodbye. Hopefully she will come back.


Stop telling her you will change. She's seen nothing that says you have.

Give her space. Become a better you. It might not make her come back. But you will feel better about yourself if you quit giving her reasons and opportunities to reject you.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Actions over words, always.

Do not beg or plead.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Spun, I agree. I have been consistent with the 180 since last night when I first posted. All the deviations that I mention were from beforehand.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Our 6 year anniversary is in 4 days. What should I do with that? I don't have any plans yet (due to all the turmoil), but I have always done something big on our anniversary.

I suspect that she is looking for me to make the right move here, but I don't know what that is. If I do nothing, which I understand would be consistent with the 180, I am afraid that will put the nail in the coffin.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think the nail in the coffin was when you loaded her crap in the truck. Sorry man, but IF space is what she wants the give it to her.

The sooner she sees you distancing your self the sooner she will see what she is losing. As hard as it is, with a smile on your face and with confidence wish her the best and let her go.

Enless your begging pleading made any difference, then I suggest you go dark and see how this new tactic works.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Ok, thanks Guy. I'll stick to the 180 no matter what.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> She has told me how she felt, but no, I didn't get it. My thought process was somewhere along the lines of "What she is doing irritates me, so what if it irritates her when I criticize her about it? Maybe that will get her to stop doing irritating things." Since I was able to live with it, I figured so was she.
> 
> Unwind, this thought process is almost pathological. Please get some help with your interpersonal skills. Look up the work of Michelle Garcia Winner. She writes about social thinking. Her work is aimed at those working with autistic children. I am not saying you are autistic, but it sounds like this is what you need. The excersises may not be appropriate, but the theory may help you understand what you are doing and how damaging it is. Your MC'er may be able to recommend something along the same lines that is geared to adults. You have only given us the one example of critisizing in order to affect behavioral change, but I suspect your faulty thinking extends beyond this. If your MC'er can't come up with an adult version, let me know and I will scout around.
> 
> ...


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower, I will definitely look into what you recommend. I will also talk about this in MC tomorrow.

I am not in love with my career, I am in love with my wife. It would be scary, but I would change it if that would help things. I don't think that I would ever blame her for anything, because flying is not all it's cracked up to be. I would certainly blame myself however, if I knew there was something I could do to save the marriage and I didn't do it.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Frostflower, I will definitely look into what you recommend. I will also talk about this in MC tomorrow.
> 
> I am not in love with my career, I am in love with my wife. It would be scary, but I would change it if that would help things. I don't think that I would ever blame her for anything, because flying is not all it's cracked up to be. I would certainly blame myself however, if I knew there was something I could do to save the marriage and I didn't do it.


Glad to hear it. You may be one of the few pilots I could actually respect!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

We're a bunch of jerks, aren't we?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> We're a bunch of jerks, aren't we?


Just known too many who thought they were God's gift to the world and too many who fooled around on their wives.


----------



## donders (May 9, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> There has been no mental or physical abuse, infidelity, or any other major event.


I skimmed the thread, looks like I'm the first to say it.

1- Unless you're with her 24/7 you don't know, you can't know if there's been any infidelity

2- Almost always, the betrayed spouse is completely blindsided by the affair, they never, ever saw it coming and sometimes insist it isn't happening even when there are obvious signs to the contrary.

3- Much more often than not, when a partner wants out of the relationship, especially when things happen fairly quickly, it's because there's someone else.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower, I am a modest person who would never cheat on my wife.

Donders, the thought has crossed my mind. To be honest, I think it would make it much easier for me to accept the situation if that were the case.

She works full time, goes to school, and does clinical work constantly. She is so busy, she doesn't have time to sleep properly or see her own husband most of the time. I don't know where she could possibly fit an affair in there.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Frostflower, I am a modest person who would never cheat on my wife.
> 
> Donders, the thought has crossed my mind. To be honest, I think it would make it much easier for me to accept the situation if that were the case.
> 
> She works full time, goes to school, and does clinical work constantly. She is so busy, she doesn't have time to sleep properly or see her own husband most of the time. I don't know where she could possibly fit an affair in there.


Unwind, I didn't mean to imply that you would cheat on your wife. sorry if it came across that way. I know not all pilots are scum.

Looking back, I don't know how my husband fit a affair in either, but he did. And he left quickly. Might not be true in your wife's case, but I didn't think so either.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

No offense taken. I guess I'll find out if she has been cheating soon enough. I really don't think that's the case.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Ok, I am getting ready to leave for counseling. I have re-read all the posts in this thread, and I will keep all of your advice in mind.

I don't know for sure if she will be there today, I really haven't talked to her much at all in the last 24 hrs.

I am better with this already. I think it is the 180. I was able to talk and laugh on the phone with friends last night without bursting into tears. I am able to put her out of my mind for at least short periods. I still want to save the marriage, and I would still do anything to make my wife happy again, but I think this is an excellent way to cope.

Thank you all very much for talking with me. This is by far the hardest thing that I have ever gone through. It is comforting to know that people have done it before, and life goes on.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Unwind80 said:


> She works full time, goes to school, and does clinical work constantly. She is so busy, she doesn't have time to sleep properly or see her own husband most of the time. I don't know where she could possibly fit an affair in there.


This is a big red flag the "old to busy to have a boyfriend" 

Just maybe thats why she is so busy, but something has to give when it comes to having a boyfriend and it looks like sleep and her own husband is were the sacrifice is made.

Not always but for most chick, they will give up the security of having a man when that said man has been replaced by another man.

I could be wrong but your own investigation might get you to the root of the problem and that root may not be you and your issues but the excitement of a new relationship.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't know what to say Guy, I can't rule it out, that's for sure. I can't say that I am going to investigate, but I will certainly keep my eyes and ears open for any clues.

I do know that I'm an idiot, and I can't seem to keep my mouth shut. I think our time together is going to have to be supervised if we are to make it through this.

We missed out MC appt today. We both thought it was at 10, but it was 9. I rescheduled for tomorrow morning.

Instead of talking with our counselor, she asked me to go to breakfast so we could talk and I said ok. (mistake 1)

Instead of small talk, I felt the need to bring up the logistics of how we are going to divide our accounts and credit cards. We were in agreement with all of that, so I ended up bringing up something that I knew we were not in agreement about (HUGE mistake 2). Her student loans. I'll spare the details, but that didn't go well. And spawned an argument about what she will be taking from the house. I could have just shut up, but I didn't (mistake 3). Now I'm pretty angry and still talking, and talking. I ended up making a few more mistakes before dropping her back off at her car. She sent me a text since then apologizing (she isn't completely innocent here), and I responded with an apology of my own.

Thats the bad news. The good news is that she is still willing to see the MC with me tomorrow. She asked me this question too, which has to be a good thing:
"If we get back together, will you ever throw my leaving you in my face?"
I think I did well here, and just answered "absolutely not, I will just be happy that you came back"

All in all, it was almost a complete disaster. Somehow through it all, it still seems like there is hope for us yet...


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I don't know what to say Guy, I can't rule it out, that's for sure. I can't say that I am going to investigate, but I will certainly keep my eyes and ears open for any clues.
> 
> I do know that I'm an idiot, and I can't seem to keep my mouth shut. I think our time together is going to have to be supervised if we are to make it through this.
> 
> ...


everyone's entitled to a mistake here and there, but Un, try to keep it to a minimum!

I'm gIlad to hear that your foray into no-no land hasn't cost you the joint MC. 

Be careful about making promises. You told her that you woluld never throw her leaving in her face. Let's hope she never has cause to throw that back in your face. This may be a minor example, but be wary of making promises. You don't know what the future holds .


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you Frostflower for all of your advice. I think I'd be in much worse shape right now if it weren't for you.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thank you Frostflower for all of your advice. I think I'd be in much worse shape right now if it weren't for you.


Thank you, Un, but you give me too much credit. You are open to change. You may not understand why your social thinking is off, but you took what I said without malice and are willing to look into it further. That takes guts, because we are talking about your inner you which, all said and done, is all we really have.

I give you credit for your openness and willingness to change in order to have a better relationship with your wife.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Need some more advice...

The wife just sent me an email saying "Do you want me to walk away from everything? I can start over."

Should I respond to this? My gut tells me yes, but I've made the wrong move once or twice recently. Here is the message that I ALMOST sent her: "I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I sincerely just want you to be happy, so do whatever it takes. I'll be here if you decide to come back."


----------



## Sunshine33 (Aug 4, 2012)

Unwind, I can relate to what you are going through. My husband is acting a lot like your wife. If you are going to respond to her email at all, I would suggest asking her what she wants. Does she want to walk away from everything since she can "start over"? You should want to be with someone who wants to be with you. Should she stay because you want her to? No, she should want you just like you want her. 

After my husband told me he didn't know if he wanted to be married anymore and was planning on moving out, I cried and begged and pleaded with him to work on our marriage. Instead, he ignored me in our own home, went out to bars and out with his friends until all hours of the night, and then eventually stayed out all night and came home in the morning to get ready for work. Without even calling, texting, or telling me where he was. Told me he couldn't say he was committed to me or our marriage (you have to admire his honesty..) and that he lied about ever wanting children with me. I was inconsolable. Begged him not to leave and go to counseling. 

One day I just stopped letting it hurt so bad. He came to our home and wanted to talk. I told him if he wanted to divorce me, I wasn't going to stop him. I'm not going to make him stay married to me. If he wanted to work on things, I would be open to working on things together, but I'm not going to continue to be the only one in the marriage. At the end of the conversation, he told me he would consider going with me to counseling (I go to IC). The next day he showed up and said he will go with me. If I knew it was going to be like that, I would have said it a long time ago. 

Bottom line, I don't know what your wife is thinking, but she seems to think she can just "start over" like that is easy or something. If you say, yes walk away, then she will blame you for pushing her away, you "told her" it was over. If you tell her you want her to stay, then you are making her stay. SHE is the one that is confused. Let her figure it out herself!


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Need some more advice...
> 
> The wife just sent me an email saying "Do you want me to walk away from everything? I can start over."
> 
> Should I respond to this? My gut tells me yes, but I've made the wrong move once or twice recently. Here is the message that I ALMOST sent her: "I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I sincerely just want you to be happy, so do whatever it takes. I'll be here if you decide to come back."


Wonder what's behind that, considering that she is joining you in MC?

I wouldn't answer.

Telling her that you will be there should she want to come back is setting yourself up as poor seconds. "If your new life doesn't work out, come on back to mt 'cause I have nothing better to do than to wait for you.". It allows her to cake eat. She can go off and have fun knowing that if things don't work out, she has you as a security blanket.

Keep thinking about the mistakes you told us about earlier if doing that will keep you from making another!





A


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you Sunshine.

I'm glad I never sent anything because you bring up a good point. She is confused, and I think no matter what I say will end up making her sad or angry. 

I know for a fact that she wants to feel in control. If she feels that I am trying to tell her what to do, she is almost sure to do the exact opposite.

If she feels that I am just saying what she wants to hear, it is just going to make her angry.

I will stay quiet. I will see her in 12 hours anyway.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Wonder what's behind that, considering that she is joining you in MC?
> 
> I wouldn't answer.
> 
> ...


Thank you Frostflower, I will make one right move today if it kills me


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thank you Frostflower, I will make one right move today if it kills me


No dead bodies here, please! . you can do it!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

It does seem like I have become Plan B in her life, but its probably too early to come to that conclusion. Heck, I don't know if she wants a divorce or separation or is just trying to scare the crap out of me!

I probably deserve to be a backup plan at this point. I just hope that she will be around to see the changes that I will be making. Then maybe we can work things out.

Whatever the case, I am determined to better myself and be happy. I will use this as a learning experience, and then grow.


----------



## Sunshine33 (Aug 4, 2012)

Don't sell yourself so short. No one deserves to be a back up plan. Don't settle for that.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> It does seem like I have become Plan B in her life, but its probably too early to come to that conclusion. Heck, I don't know if she wants a divorce or separation or is just trying to scare the crap out of me!
> 
> I probably deserve to be a backup plan at this point. I just hope that she will be around to see the changes that I will be making. Then maybe we can work things out.
> 
> Whatever the case, I am determined to better myself and be happy. I will use this as a learning experience, and then grow.


Since you've been reading my thread, you know that I have inadvertently set myself up as Plan B. So do as I say, not as I do!

Sigh!

We will get through this.

But in the meanwhile, don't say you deserve to be Plan B. No-one deserves to be someone's second choice. I hope she does see the changes and realize what she stands to lose. But, even if she doesn't you will be stronger and able to move on with your head held high.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks guys, I may deserve it, but I still won't stand for it.

Ok, marriage counseling today. Where do I begin? At the beginning...

We walked in and the MC asked us how we have been doing. My wife answered, told her that she moved out of the house. To that the MC said that she was on the verge of tears, and asked why she didn't give anything a chance. My wife acknowledged that I had made a tremendous effort over the past few weeks, but went back to the fact that I had a year and a half, and I waited until now.

In last weeks session I was so glad to be understood by the MC. She said that sometimes in a marriage, one person can be troubled, in pain or distress, and the other person can be humming along happily the whole time. Its all about expectations. One person's expectations are being met, one's aren't. My expectations were being met, but my wife's were not. Whether her fault or my own, she never communicated that to me effectively until just a couple weeks ago. Its not like I was under the delusion that things were perfect, but I had no idea things were as bad as they were.

Back to our session today:
The MC reminded my wife that I had only really understood the situation for a couple weeks. That got my wife defensive, and she ended up talking a lot about all the past mistakes that I have made.

This is going to be too long. Here is the summary.
- I still don't know if we are separated or if she is going to file for divorce
- Neither does my wife
- My wife is unable to accept any change I make as genuine or lasting. She dismisses everything I have said and done recently as being forced and insincere.
- It has become clear that my wife is not listening to me. I would say that I spoke fewer than 100 words in that room today, and I listened to her talk most of the rest of the time. She said many things that are just plain false. She truly believes them too. Things that are exactly the opposite of what I have said in the past.
- At one point I was asked what I was doing to take care of myself in this situation. I gave a shout out to the TAM community and all of you wonderful people. I also told her that I am doing my best to practice the 180 (she didn't know what that was). I also told her that I wanted to start IC so that I can work on MY issues. I couldn't keep from crying which made me mad at myself. Part of the 180 is to show a strong and confident exterior.
- Sadly, the discussion ended up turning into one about how to stay civilized during the divorce process, because the MC drew the conclusion that my wife has made up her mind, and is not willing to save the marriage. Apparently my wife already has an attorney on retainer. She started talking about how there is no way that mediation can work in our case because I don't agree with paying half of her student loans. (please don't rush to judge on this. She is leaving me in a house that is worth half of what we owe. I can't leave it without foreclosing and ruining my credit. She sees it as doing me a favor by letting me stay in the house that I can't afford, and can't leave. Basically I am going to be screwed here, and then she want's $40K for her student loans. I thought it would be fair that she handle her loans, and I handle the house. She thinks we both handle the loans, and I handle the house. )
- So I'm thinking that's it, right? Maybe. The wife wants to come with me next week to what I thought was going to be an individual session. She says its not over until we sign all the papers or something like that. I think she is just as scared as I am about this, and doesn't want to admit that the marriage is over.

So I think it is over. I am so confused lately, now I don't even know what I want. Maybe its a defense mechanism for me to say I want it to be over, just because I don't have a choice in the matter.

I am so sad. With every day I have less hope that I will ever be with her again.

Thanks to everyone for listening.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks guys, I may deserve it, but I still won't stand for it.
> 
> Ok, marriage counseling today. Where do I begin? At the beginning...
> 
> ...


Oh, Un, I'm sorry.

Her earlier text asking if you wanted her to walk away from everything, that she can start over makes some sense now. She sure could start over with no debts. So glad you didn't send that response saying you would do whatever it takes!

Why would she want to go to your IC? Only reason I can think of is that iit would be a chance for her to diss you further in front of a third party. Must give her some sort of power thrill. Don't let her go and usurp your bid for help. Just curious, is it the MC'er you will see for IC?

Ask your counsellor that question about is it a defense mechanism to say you want it to be over? Feeling like you have no power, no say, is extremely difficult. Just ask me.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

UGH! I have been staring at this not knowing what to say. I have to say something. She asked me if she should buy a printer, so I responded with this below. Jasper is our dog, she asked me earlier for my schedule so that she could help take care of him when I'm gone.

I wrote:
_You don't want me to tell you what to do, I respect that. You can take anything you want from the house.

I leave for work tonight at 7:25 and should get home tomorrow morning about 8
Saturday I will leave at 5:45 and be home Sunday at 9:30
Monday I leave at 7:25 and get back Tuesday at 8
_
She wrote:
_I will buy groceries and necesities (however you spell it) from our joint and wait to buy the rest from a credit card which I will establish later. I don't want to take all your assets.
Jasper will be cared for.
How we proceed from this point is up to you._


UP TO ME? If it were up to me, we would probably be out in the middle of a lake on the boat with the dog. Instead, we are selling the boat. She is moving out, and we are not to see eachother perhaps ever again. How is anything up to me?

I can't tell her that. I'm thinking a simple 'thank you' will do.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> UGH! I have been staring at this not knowing what to say. I have to say something. She asked me if she should buy a printer, so I responded with this below. Jasper is our dog, she asked me earlier for my schedule so that she could help take care of him when I'm gone.
> 
> I wrote:
> _You don't want me to tell you what to do, I respect that. You can take anything you want from the house.
> ...


She doesn't want to take all your assists, but wants you pay pay all her student loans. I'm confused.

I'm curious too how she sees that this is up to you. She's the one pulling out. Are you going to MC together again? this would be a good question to bring up there.

I don't think would answer the email.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Her earlier text asking if you wanted her to walk away from everything, that she can start over makes some sense now. She sure could start over with no debts. So glad you didn't send that response saying you would do whatever it takes!


I hope that's not what she is thinking about at this point, but it sure looks that way.


Frostflower said:


> Why would she want to go to your IC? Only reason I can think of is that iit would be a chance for her to diss you further in front of a third party. Must give her some sort of power thrill. Don't let her go and usurp your bid for help. Just curious, is it the MC'er you will see for IC?


I would go see the same person for individual counseling as we have been seeing as a couple. She does enjoy venting about my faults, she is looking for someone to validate her positions. Whenever anyone sticks up for me she gets huffy and irritated. I will just go one more time with her next week. We have been there only three times so far, and obviously the situation is deteriorating. I do not think the marriage will be saved at this point, but I want to make every effort. Even if it is too late. When I scheduled the appointment, she was under the impression that I was scheduling for the both of us. I don't think she is coming just to spite me or anything, but only because she can't accept the fact that it is over.



Frostflower said:


> Ask your counsellor that question about is it a defense mechanism to say you want it to be over? Feeling like you have no power, no say, is extremely difficult. Just ask me.


I will. And I am going to think long and hard about this in the meantime.

It breaks my heart to know that I have hurt her so much, but I never knew I needed to change. Now I feel like I never had a chance.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I hope that's not what she is thinking about at this point, but it sure looks that way.
> 
> I would go see the same person for individual counseling as we have been seeing as a couple. She does enjoy venting about my faults, she is looking for someone to validate her positions. Whenever anyone sticks up for me she gets huffy and irritated. I will just go one more time with her next week. We have been there only three times so far, and obviously the situation is deteriorating. I do not think the marriage will be saved at this point, but I want to make every effort. Even if it is too late. When I scheduled the appointment, she was under the impression that I was scheduling for the both of us. I don't think she is coming just to spite me or anything, but only because she can't accept the fact that it is over.
> 
> ...


She can't accept that it's over, but she's the one leaving?


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> She doesn't want to take all your assists, but wants you pay pay all her student loans. I'm confused.
> 
> I'm curious too how she sees that this is up to you. She's the one pulling out. Are you going to MC together again? this would be a good question to bring up there.
> 
> I don't think would answer the email.


You are much wiser than I Frostflower. I will not answer.

Yes, we will go to MC together next Wednesday, and I will try to bring that up.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> You are much wiser than I Frostflower. I will not answer.
> 
> Yes, we will go to MC together next Wednesday, and I will try to bring that up.


Oh, jeez, if I were so wise, I wouldn't be alone.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> She can't accept that it's over, but she's the one leaving?


Yes, here's a crazy example:

She told me the other day that we can't work things out and that she was leaving me. I took that to mean divorce, although she never said it.

I don't have the slightest idea of what we were talking about later on, but I said the words "our marriage is over".

She FLIPPED out, started crying and yelling "how can you say that?!" Left the room, and I think even left the house after that.

She sent me a text later that day saying that those words "killed her".

She is going through the motions, but doesn't like any of it. In my view, she is begging me to just file for divorce for her, so all she needs to do is sign. She wants a final reason to leave since I haven't given her any good reason to in the last month.

I think she actually wanted me to hit her after she told me we were done. She said "Do you want to hit me? It would be ok if you did". I would NEVER EVER, EVER hit her. But she is looking for any reason to justify leaving.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Yes, here's a crazy example:
> 
> She told me the other day that we can't work things out and that she was leaving me. I took that to mean divorce, although she never said it.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on her. 

It's confusing, isn't it? Do you wait for her to initiate D? Do you do it? Do you leave things alone and hope it all turns out? I'm in the same quandary.

But that said, don't give her a reason.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Not gonna give her a reason! I get all of my mistakes taken care of up front. From here on out is smooth sailing.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Not gonna give her a reason! I get all of my mistakes taken care of up front. From here on out is smooth sailing.


That's the spirit!

Speaking of sailing, I'm gonna go walk along the beach with my dog. That connects to sailing 'cause, you know....beach, water, boats.... Catch you later!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

That sounds nice Frostflower, enjoy!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

The wife is talkative today. Just sent me this:

Hello,
I respect you and your wishes. It was not my intent today to cause you any pain. I am not trying to get back at you in any way. I would hope by now that I only have love for you. I am not mad at you, nor do I hate you.


I guess I'll keep ignoring since I still don't know what the heck she's talking about. My wishes are that she come back to me, but she is not respecting that.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

Hi UN, My w did and is doing the same thing. I have been in limbo for awhile now. My advice keep quite! You can not get in trouble by saying nothing. If you don't want a divorce DON'T file, if she wants it she can file. Anytime she says something you do not agree with simply say "I am not ok with that" or "I'm sorry things turned out this way". Never blame, never accuse, avoid any saying anything like "you didn't tell me you felt this way" she takes that as you blaming her and she obviously disagrees. Keep going to ic and read and learn, no matter what happens you will be a better man. Do not push for answers and do NOT ask where things are going, she doesn't know and if you push you will push her away.
Focus on yourself and just observe her actions. Don't be so available to her. Don't tell her what you are doing, become a mystery to her.
Of course I have been doing these things and my w is still doing nothing and not moving in any direction. If this happens you will slowly detach from her and at some point when you are ready you can either give her an ultimatum or just file.
Sorry you have to go through this, it is a total nightmare. Always remember you have many friends here at TAM that are facing the same struggles and are here to support you. When you get angry and frustrated come here to vent.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks muskrat.

I am a quiet person by nature, but for some reason I am having a heck of a time keeping my mouth shut lately. I think it is instinct. It is not natural to just sit and watch things unfold.

I'm doing it anyway though. I've already made plenty of mistakes, but I'm coming around.

I'm sorry to hear your relationship is still in limbo. I admire your drive to save your family. I agree that in society too often people are way too quick to throw in the towel. This marriage doesn't work? Throw it away and get a new one. I don't like that attitude, and I agree with your position 100%.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

I have to admit if it wasn't for my kids I probably would have gave up by now. This weekend is 2 years since she said she is not happy. She only moved out this past april, but the 18months in between were a real nightmare.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I understand, and your efforts can't go on forever, and shouldn't. In my case, I feel like we've only been working on this for a week before she left. (my wife would argue that point) There should be more of an effort than that.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

I'm still trying, but I'm getting closer and closer to throwing in the towel. You have only just begun, if she stays where she is, you will know when it's time to walk away.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Well she made a move and I'm celebrating a small improvement tonight.

She asked if she could come over tonight just before I was going to leave for work. I saw her for about twenty minutes, and she asked me if I wanted to treat this as a separation rather than divorce. Of course I said yes. I didn't push for anything and let her do all the talking. So that's good, at least she isn't out there getting the paperwork together.

She seems to be having fun setting up her new place, but I'm going to chalk that up to all the stuff she gets to buy. Shopping can bring that girl out of the deepest of funks.

I have a long way to go, but I feel like I just took one step back from the ledge.

She asked me on her way out if I wanted to do anything for our anniversary which caught me off guard. I said that I would leave that up to her. That answer didn't seem to upset her, so I guess I did OK there.

All said and done, it was a good night.


----------



## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

I am by no means an expert but i don't think that you can fix marriage problems effectively while living apart. 

Its strange to me for a spouse want to separate but not to initiate divorce if what you did really made her unhappy to the point that she doesn't want to be with you.

Instead it seems she is keeping you in limbo, giving you snippets of hope, and then pushing you away again.

I think that if what she said to you was what she really felt her actions would be to move out, file divorce, cut all non essential contact with you. 

Instead she is keeping you hanging in there, thinking that there's a chance at R.

And I hate to say it but that is the behaviour of a person in an affair.

Have you made sure there is no third party?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

You've had quite a day, Un! All I can say is be careful. She is confused and it could end up causing you more pain than you've already had.

Stick to what you have been doing. Let her come to you. 

Don't know what to say about the anniversary. Sounds like she is planning to get you something. Should you get her something? If you do, and she doesn't, you'll look needy. If she does and you don't, it could crush her if her intentions are toward R or it could set her off if they're not.

What do you think, People? Should he or shouldn't he?


----------



## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I'll be blunt.

She's stringing you along. And you are letting her.

She's already moving on without you.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

She is stringing him along, so is my w, with me. We will let go when we are ready, over time those little snippets of love will have less meaning.
As for the anniversary, I would get a small gift, nothing over the top. If you get her flowers, no roses, get a small batch of mixed flowers. If you get a card, get something simple and simply write "happy anniversary, love Un". Don't get all mushy, don't push romance. Just keep it simple! If you want wait and see if she gives you a gift, if she does then you are ready to return the favor. If she doesn't, you don't have to give her a gift. Let her lead.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input.

I haven't verified that there is no third party, but I can say this. If I ever find out there is or was, I will file for divorce myself with absolutely no hesitation.

I agree that she is stringing me along, but if I want her back I have to let her do that don't I? Better string me along and give everyone a chance to cool down than to rush to the big D.

I'm not too concerned anymore about the anniversary gift. She is getting a card with three words on it. I'm sorry, but she can't expect more than that after walking out on me less than a week beforehand. Heck, today she will be taking about 3/4 of all the furniture we have in the house. I will be living with boxes for nightstands... she shouldn't expect a gift. I am also going to decline any 'date' that she may be thinking of. Its too soon, we will end up arguing. I will tell her that as long as we are not filing for divorce in a couple weeks, I would like to have a date with her now and then, but not sooner than that.

In my mind, this is all perfectly reasonable. I am, however, a pretty warped individual.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks everyone for your input.
> 
> I haven't verified that there is no third party, but I can say this. If I ever find out there is or was, I will file for divorce myself with absolutely no hesitation.
> 
> ...


We're all warped in some way. 

With the info you just posted, I agree. No gift. 

Why is she taking 3/4 of the furniture? What happened to fairness?

What do you expect to get out of the dates?


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

I would go if she asks, just keep your mouth shut! Observe her and really listen to what she has to say. When she is talking silence your mind. Don't be trying to "figure her out" don't be thinking of a response, just listen and observe.
We don't have to file for D to prevent them from stringing us along. Move on with your life, go out have fun, don't be available. Go do things you enjoy.
Don't file until you are ready, don't do it out of anger, hurt or frustration. If you do you will live the rest of your life with regret. There may come a time when you are really ready to move on, then by all means file. Just please give yourself some time to heal and let your emotions settle before doing anything rash. There is no rush to file.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

She is taking almost every nice piece of furniture we own, and that was actually my request. If she doesn't take the stuff we have, she will not hesitate to buy all new stuff. She won't bother to do that on a budget. Doing it this way will leave me with much more cash in the end so that I can live off savings for a while. I don't make enough to live in this house alone.

With the dates I will hope to eventually get back together. Next week at MC I will ask to have our counselor introduce the HEALING separation, in which the ultimate goal is to get back together. I will also ask for help from her setting some ground rules while we are separated. For example, absolutely no involvement with other people, completely separate accounts, no "hey honey, can you come set up my internet?". Stuff like that. She wanted her space, and she will get it. At the same time though, we will need to communicate and see each other on occasion to see if we can re-kindle what we once had together. So I am hoping that a date every once in a while at first will be possible, and then we can do that more and more until it is a couple times a week. Maybe its wishful thinking, but at least I have something to shoot for.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

Don't ask for dates to soon, let her miss you. Don't push things, if she asks for a date, GO. Don't you be the one asking though. If you have a date and things go well, don't push! don't rush the process.
If you go out end things while on a positive note, don't cling, don't prolong the evening. At a reasonable time in the evening just tell her you must get going, you had a great time. Don't tell her where or why your going (be a mystery). Don't push for another date, let her come to you, let her chase you!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

muskrat said:


> I would go if she asks, just keep your mouth shut! Observe her and really listen to what she has to say. When she is talking silence your mind. Don't be trying to "figure her out" don't be thinking of a response, just listen and observe.
> We don't have to file for D to prevent them from stringing us along. Move on with your life, go out have fun, don't be available. Go do things you enjoy.
> Don't file until you are ready, don't do it out of anger, hurt or frustration. If you do you will live the rest of your life with regret. There may come a time when you are really ready to move on, then by all means file. Just please give yourself some time to heal and let your emotions settle before doing anything rash. There is no rush to file.


As I read this I realize that what I just said about filing without hesitation differs wildly from what I said yesterday. In my mind, there is no excuse and no forgiveness for infidelity or physical abuse. In these two cases, I see divorce as the only solution. The normal issues like arguing over money, over-criticizing your spouse (guilty), or any of the other million stressors involved in every marriage should be addressed and fixed or compromised.

I have decided to live my life to the best of my ability while separated, and I am not in any hurry to file. But I do agree with the comments that she is stringing me along. I can, and will, fight to go in my own direction, but the only way to completely remove any influence that string has on me is to cut it. If the time ever comes to do that, then so be it. Until then, I'll let her string tug, but not let it steer me.

I know, I know, enough with the 'string' metaphor already! :smthumbup:


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

muskrat said:


> Don't ask for dates to soon, let her miss you. Don't push things, if she asks for a date, GO. Don't you be the one asking though. If you have a date and things go well, don't push! don't rush the process.
> If you go out end things while on a positive note, don't cling, don't prolong the evening. At a reasonable time in the evening just tell her you must get going, you had a great time. Don't tell her where or why your going (be a mystery). Don't push for another date, let her come to you, let her chase you!


I will follow these words to the letter.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> She is taking almost every nice piece of furniture we own, and that was actually my request. If she doesn't take the stuff we have, she will not hesitate to buy all new stuff. She won't bother to do that on a budget. Doing it this way will leave me with much more cash in the end so that I can live off savings for a while. I don't make enough to live in this house alone.
> 
> With the dates I will hope to eventually get back together. Next week at MC I will ask to have our counselor introduce the HEALING separation, in which the ultimate goal is to get back together. I will also ask for help from her setting some ground rules while we are separated. For example, absolutely no involvement with other people, completely separate accounts, no "hey honey, can you come set up my internet?". Stuff like that. She waAnted her space, and she will get it. At the same time though, we will need to communicate and see each other on occasion to see if we can re-kindle what we once had together. So I am hoping that a date every once in a while at first will be possible, and then we can do that more and more until it is a couple times a week. Maybe its wishful thinking, but at least I have something to shoot for.


You are still operating on joint accounts and credit cards? You might want to change that if you are worried about her spending. Of course, you could still be responsible for her credit card debt. I don't know how these things work. But I would definitely think about a separate bank account, in addition to the joint one if you need to keep that. That way you can have some money that she can't access.

The dating idea that you describe is what I would do if my husband were to want to R. I agree with the Rat's advice though. Definitely observe, don't push and don't prolong.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you Frostflower. I hope that someday your husband will come around to you.

This is all so sudden, we haven't had much of a chance to change things with the accounts. Our plan is to completely separate the finances, and we are in agreement on that. Its just going to take a little more time.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I will follow these words to the letter.


A word of caution. This is so much easier to say than to do.
I am no expert, just trying to pass along what I have learned. I am still separated and I don't see any progress.
Your wife still seems open to the possibility of R, so these things may work better for you.
When my w decided to leave she wanted no dates, refused counseling and showed no willingness to R. Still doesn't.
I wish you luck and hope you can avoid some of my mistakes, I may have learned to late for my marriage, but maybe I can help others.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

How about this:
I will TRY to follow these words to the letter.
I know it's hard. Easily the most challenging 4 days of my life so far. All I can do is my best. I am determined to learn from my mistakes and from the mistakes of others. If my best isn't good enough, then at least I can say I tried.

I need to take apart the computer now since my wife will be taking the office furniture tonight.

Once again, THANK YOU to everyone that is listening and helping me through this awful time in my life.

I'll be back once I can get another place to put the monitor and keyboard.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

So on my drive home from work yesterday morning, I was working myself up into a little ball of rage thinking about everything. For one thing, the fact that my wife took most of our furniture the night before, but mostly about the dog. Thinking about how much I view this little guy as my own son, and how she abandoned both of us. Then about how I am not going to be able to afford to keep him, as there would need to be a lot of doggy day care involved. Getting even more angry telling myself that the wife would need to take him for half of every month, then thinking that she would just tell me to get rid of him. I don't know what the laws are, but I doubt that any laws look at dogs the same way as children. I would probably be forced to give him away...

Well I pulled up to the house, expecting it to be mostly empty. Surprise! Her car is in the driveway, and she's sleeping on the couch. At this point, I am about to blow, and am literally shaking. I didn't yell, but I couldn't talk to her either. I just sat in my empty bedroom and looked out the window. Tried to gather my thoughts.

She came in after a while and sat next to me and held my hand. We talked for at least an hour about everything. I was still very careful with what I said, but I was my no means silent. I have to say that SHE managed to say all the right things. When I pulled into the driveway, I have never been more angry in my life. An hour or two later, I am sitting on the floor, holding my wife, talking and even laughing. All of that anger completely gone. I am not usually like this, and I am completely fascinated with her affect on me. Being with her makes me feel good, which I guess is why this is so hard.

She is still in the process of moving out which sucks, but somehow I feel much better about it since we talked. She put any of my speculation to rest about the dog when she told me that she sees him as our son too, and we will never give him away no matter what.

She told me that she really appreciates all the progress that I have made in my effort to be a better person. It was good to hear her acknowledge that. 

She stopped by again later in the evening and things were pleasant. I am so glad that at least we aren't fighting.

So things may or may not be getting better between us, but at least I am feeling better. I am going to try to put this positive energy towards our counseling session on Wednesday.

Since she will be joining me on Wednesday, would it be a mistake to try and focus on my personal issues during our session? These are what she says to be the main factors in her leaving, so I think it makes sense to talk about them. So far all we have done there is keep pointing fingers (mostly at me). I would like to know how to change, but if she just needs to continue venting should we go that route instead?


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

As far as what to talk about at mc, tell the counselor what you wrote here and then let the mc decide what areas need to be discussed.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Sounds reasonable.


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

muskrat said:


> As far as what to talk about at mc, tell the counselor what you wrote here and then let the mc decide what areas need to be discussed.


Just be careful about what you post on TAM. My W found out what alias I was posting under and printed my entire thread and tried to tell our MC that almost everything I wrote is wrong or didn't happen.

The last thing I need is for my MC to think I am a liar. 

You may be better off just saying that there is a support group you are talking to or something to that effect.

BTW, in regards to your OP, my wife left under a similar mindset. She loves me, but she had to leave me for a while. I am glad you had a good chat with her, but take it from my experience, tomorrow she might be mean or bitter. Don't make my mistake and push too hard every time she gives you hope (not saying you are, just giving you advice.)


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

sadly mine said similar things when she left. I still love you (hasn't said it again since), I just need so time and space to work through my issues, I don't know what I want. Well since she left things have steadily gotten worse. We did a family day once a week for the first 2 months (she has since decided not to). We called every night so we could each say good night to the kids (that has stopped also). The level of niceness and respect have plummeted. It almost feels like she was just saying what I wanted to hear so I would go along with what she wanted and now that she is situated...well mo need to act anymore.
I don't mean to scare you, just be cautious and don't get your hopes up. I do try to warn you of some of my mistakes. I pushed for to much to soon. She missed a few calls and I responded by not calling her (whoever had the kids called just before bed). My reactions to her actions helped make things worse. Before we were crawling down hill, now we seem to gain speed everyday!
Don't believe a word she says, observe her actions. Actions speak louder than words.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks guys for keeping me grounded.

Locke, everything I have ever posted in here is (what I believe to be) truth. I try to be brutally honest with myself always. If she comes in here and takes things that I say the wrong way, there is nothing I can do. I have described this forum in MC just the way you did, a support group. I do agree though, there is always the possibility that something said will backfire.

Rat, I am trying so hard to keep my feet on the ground and not let my spirit soar every time she gives me some good sign. If it weren't for all of you here, I would be in much worse shape. You all keep me in line, and I appreciate it.

Words and actions sure tell a different story don't they? Last night the wife stopped by on her way home from work. She knew I was there, but she really didn't have a whole lot to say to me or anything to do in the house. I am proud to say that I worked the 180 perfectly last night. I was pleasant, confident, and not too chatty. I would like to think that she is already regretting her decision to move out, but who knows. She has yet to go 24 hrs without being in this house...


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

I think you have a good chance to save your marriage. Your marriage is on life support and you must play your cards right. Sounds like your doing well so far, but make sure you choose your words and actions carefully. Do not speak or act on impulse, it is so easy to get caught up in the moment and let your emotions take over. You must stay in control of yourself!


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

muskrat said:


> You must stay in control of yourself!


I second that. My big problem is that anytime my W gave me hope I pounced on it and she always pushed me away again.

Also I found it is best to let her control the conversation completely. Take this last weekend. We went up north together and I started bringing stuff up on the 2 hour drive and we ended up screaming at each other. I recovered and saved the weekend by backing off and guess what? She initiated the conversation on the drive home and I just shut up and listened.

Now she is really talking about reconciliation. She even has a plan for how it will go down now.

Look up my thread titled "another seaparated marriage" and learn from my mistakes.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks guys, I am doing my best. Every word I read here helps.

Locke, I am so glad to hear that you are making progress, I have started to read your story and it looks like we are in similar situations.

Someone may get a laugh out of this. Much needed in this forum. I had a nightmare last night, and I'll spare the details but I was terrified that my wife's life was in danger. I decided that I needed to find her quickly and take a weapon with me. The best weapon I could find? A butter knife! lol, I'm sure there's some symbolism in there for all the dream interpreters.

When I woke up I realized I went from one nightmare to another. Sad.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks guys, I am doing my best. Every word I read here helps.
> 
> Locke, I am so glad to hear that you are making progress, I have started to read your story and it looks like we are in similar situations.
> 
> ...


A butter knife? Let's see.....you feel inadequate for the job?.....you feel you need to butter her up?.....deep down you want her dead (which would be the outcome of using a butter knife on an assailant)....you're suicidal ('cause the butter-kniked assailant would make short work of you too)....you're hungry?

What I find strange is that I don't dream about my H. Only once in four months. What does that mean?


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for those insightful interpretations Frostflower 

I don't know what it means that you haven't dreamed of your husband. I rarely have dreams that I feel are relevant to my day to day life. This one sure was.

Marriage counseling again today. We managed to get my wife to say these words "I will work towards a goal of reconciliation." That made me so happy and relieved. I just hope she follows through. The counselor suggested that we have weekly dates, and she also agreed to that. 

More good things... Since I can rarely ever get a word in on these sessions, the counselor asked us to set up IC sessions for next week, and then a joint session two weeks from now.

She suggested a book to us that I am going to buy and read: The New Rules of Marriage by Terrance somebody?? Anybody read that one? She also suggested the book If... (Questions for the Game of Life). Looks to be a fun one to help us start conversations rather than just talking about the same old thing and starting arguments. I bought that one, but the store was out of the first. I ended up buying Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus also. We have major communications issues, and it looks like that book focuses on just that. I'll be reading that one first, and I'll let you all know what I think.

All in all, a pretty good day so far. I am still ready for the worst, but definitely hoping for the best.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks for those insightful interpretations Frostflower
> 
> I don't know what it means that you haven't dreamed of your husband. I rarely have dreams that I feel are relevant to my day to day life. This one sure was.
> 
> ...


Anytime, Un! Glad to be of help! (Still can't figure out how to do selective quotes, so had to quote your whole post That comment was meant for your first comment!)

As for the rest of your post........:yay:


----------



## eldubya (Aug 23, 2012)

Dear Unwind:
I will tell you both my STBXH and myself had difficulty communicating. He would not talk to me about anything but himself and his hobbies, and I would try to talk to him about my worries and plans and would be brushed off or ignored. It got to the point he was belittling me anytime we were in public. I mention this because in no way did I ever feel that lack of communication was a reason for divorce. I would have gladly accepted the chance to go to MC with him to work on these issues! I see it as a very positive thing that your wife is going to MC with you, and please keep trying, gently!
Peace!


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Anytime, Un! Glad to be of help! (Still can't figure out how to do selective quotes, so had to quote your whole post :


Frost, just delete out the text in the quote that you don't want and presto...instant selective quote!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Today it seems that she is trying to start arguments. Has me a little upset. Maybe she had a bad day. I'll send her a text asking how her day went today.

Also, I think she may be reading these forums now after she saw some notifications from TAM while checking my email. If you're reading this, HI HONEY!


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

spun said:


> Frost, just delete out the text in the quote that you don't want and presto...instant selective quote!


This high-tech stuff is killing me! thanks.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Today it seems that she is trying to start arguments. Has me a little upset. Maybe she had a bad day. I'll send her a text asking how her day went today.
> 
> Also, I think she may be reading these forums now after she saw some notifications from TAM while checking my email. If you're reading this, HI HONEY!


Better plan.....send her flowers. 

Should we all say hi?


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Great idea Frostflower! I just need to get her address first, lol.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Having a real bad day today.

The wife is being so difficult. The nicer I try to be, the meaner she gets. I have not been going out of my way to contact her (for the most part), but today I was going to finalize the splitting of the financial accounts. She wants to do this in person, and says that she will be coming over, but will not give me any idea what time she'll be here. She answers my questions with questions of her own. I feel like she is toying with me. I am losing patience, and have asked her to come over another day.

It sure seems like she is deliberately trying to hurt me the last 24 hrs. She changed her name that shows up when she e-mails me back to her maiden name. That felt like a knife to my chest. She has been so cold too. I don't know what I did to set her off.

Is it a big deal that she changed her name on her email? I am trying so hard to ignore the little things, but this seems like a big thing.

I am supposed to go into work tonight, but am honestly thinking of calling in sick. My stress level is off the chart today.


----------



## eldubya (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi Unwind:
It sounds as if your wife is further along in her mind about leaving you. This is typical--that one of you will be in a different place emotionally than the other, and maybe has accepted the big D ahead of you. She is probably not trying to hurt you, she is practicing emotional distance which will of course hurt you like all get-out. 
I have an intellectually challenging job, and could not concentrate on most of it for at least one month after the papers for D were filed. I handled it by letting my immediate supervisor and colleagues know what I was going through. I kept my office door shut just about every day, and that way if I was having a break down, at least no one would feel obligated to try to pick me up. I don't know if your job has similar options--if not you may want to look into taking a short leave of absence!
I commiserate entirely!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks eldubya. I wish I could take a leave of absence. I'll be ok though, I'm feeling a little more calm right now. The hardest part of my job is the drive there, and I think I can handle that tonight.

Her words say that she 'is willing to work things out', but her actions say F*** You! I wish I knew what to believe. I don't know what's going on, except this is one heck of a roller coaster ride.

When she acts like this I start thinking that maybe this is all for the best. Then she'll do something else that changes it all for the better.

My way is to just keep positive and do my best to produce an outcome that I'll be happy with. I'll just keep doing that.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks eldubya. I wish I could take a leave of absence. I'll be ok though, I'm feeling a little more calm right now. The hardest part of my job is the drive there, and I think I can handle that tonight.
> 
> Her words say that she 'is willing to work things out', but her actions say F*** You! I wish I knew what to believe. I don't know what's going on, except this is one heck of a roller coaster ride.
> 
> ...


Being at work may actually help by giving you other things to think about. If it hadn't been for working I would have spent the first two months curled up in a ball on my bed.

All roller coaster rides come to an end sooner or later. You've got it right when you say you are staying positive. This too shall pass.


----------



## muskrat (Jun 23, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Thanks eldubya. I wish I could take a leave of absence. I'll be ok though, I'm feeling a little more calm right now. The hardest part of my job is the drive there, and I think I can handle that tonight.
> 
> Her words say that she 'is willing to work things out', but her actions say F*** You! I wish I knew what to believe. I don't know what's going on, except this is one heck of a roller coaster ride.
> 
> ...


Your w sounds just like mine, I hope you have a better outcome. The actions come first, while they still say they are willing. In a short time the words will start to change to "I don't know what I want", Then comes the I'm just not myself around you. Then one day papers show up out of the blue.
I don't mean to sound so negative and I hope I'm wrong in your case, this is just the way things went for me.


----------



## sleeplessindesert (Aug 25, 2012)

Hello. I am the wife being discussed here. Its pretty amazing how everyone supports eachother on these forums. I was curious and wanted to pop in and see what was being said about me. I have not changed my name on my e-mail. I don't know how that happened. I don't even know how to do that. I appreciate the support everyone is giving my husband. He is not a bad person in any way, shape, or form. I just wanted to say hi.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

sleeplessindesert said:


> Hello. I am the wife being discussed here. Its pretty amazing how everyone supports eachother on these forums. I was curious and wanted to pop in and see what was being said about me. I have not changed my name on my e-mail. I don't know how that happened. I don't even know how to do that. I appreciate the support everyone is giving my husband. He is not a bad person in any way, shape, or form. I just wanted to say hi.


Hi, Sleepless. it's nice to meet you. It must be very strange to read about yourself. 

Your hubby has lots of friends here and is very supportive of us in turn. You can probably tell we are very protective of him!


----------



## sleeplessindesert (Aug 25, 2012)

Hello. It is strange to read about myself. It is also weird to read how negative and bitter some people are. Some people do grow apart and change seperately instead of together. Reading some of these posts make me really upset. I am going to leave the forum now as this is his space. Thank you to everyone who supports him.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

This isn't just my space, it belongs to everyone and you of all people are welcome here honey.

I think you will find everything I have ever posted here to be true and accurate. Other people that post here are just offering support for me and some advice from experience.

Please tell me if you feel that anything I have said here is not true, and we can set the record straight.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Im sorry i didnt address the one thing you already pointed out. It was pretty late last night. I will admit that i could have just imagined the name change. There are things that i am noticing now that bother me that wouldnt ever have given me problems in the past. Things like you not wearing your wedding rings for the last month. I guess I just noticed your name yesterday and I sincerely apologize for being accusatory, i have certainly been over sensitive to these types of things lately. My goal is not to come in here and spread lies.


----------



## sleeplessindesert (Aug 25, 2012)

I have been mentioning for the past six weeks that my wedding rings are too big and that I need to be them resized. I do wear a ring when I am at work. I can wear that until my rings are sized. This is your space to do whatever you want. I hope people understand that there are two sides to every story and not everyone is perfect.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I have an idea sleepless (honey). You need to vent, you seem to be uncomfortable posting here, and its probably not a good idea for us to be arguing in a public forum. Why don't you start your own thread in this forum so that you can let out your frustrations? It feels good, and I promise that you will have nice people saying nice things. 

I'm sorry you see my posting here as badmouthing you. All I post are things that I at least perceive to be facts and truth, and how they affect me. Its very therapeutic, and I recommend you give it a try!


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

sleeplessindesert said:


> I have been mentioning for the past six weeks that my wedding rings are too big and that I need to be them resized. I do wear a ring when I am at work. I can wear that until my rings are sized. This is your space to do whatever you want. I hope people understand that there are two sides to every story and not everyone is perfect.


I hope we all realize there are two upsides to every story. If UN is okay with you telling yours, we would like to hear it. it is possible to offer support without taking sides. But I don't think any of us want to get in the middle of what should be between you two.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

There are few H & W in this community and yes they have there own threads going, it kind makes me laught picture a H and W sitting in bed or on the couch next to each other with there lap top open and them typing away and repling to each other threads.

Sleepless, get your own thread going and you to can get some great insight and new perspective...as you can see there are alot of neat folks her.


----------



## sleeplessindesert (Aug 25, 2012)

Ok, I will tell my side and then move onto my own thread. My husband and I started dating 11 years ago. He was in flight school and I was still living at home 1800 miles away going to a local community college. Long story short, we were engaged two years later when we were 23 and have moved 7 times in the past 11 years. I put off nursing school until he was established with his airline and we had a permanment house. I was very soft spoken when we started dating and everything was about his career. We were very much in love even though we didn't have anything. It was all about being together and the feeling we gave eachother. Over the course of the years I became more independent and mouthier. It started to become a power struggle between us. A year and a half ago something happened where I completely felt disrespected and really began to question the future of our relationship. We tried counseling and that was not the best thing. After counseling I did everything I could to be a good wife. Before grad school I would cook dinner everynight, do laundry, keep a relatively clean house, keep the house well stocked, and would try to look attractive when he would return from a trip. Being critisized started to hurt more and I feel unappreciated. I felt that his friends and our beloved Jasper were a bigger priority than me. I knew that I couldn't live that way. I asked my husband to go to counseling and he said no. We had a huge blow up and he threatened to leave me. At that point I knew we were in trouble. Once again, his friends were made a priority and we got into a huge argument and I asked for a trial separation. He said no. I knew that I needed time to myself as I have never lived alone. Last December I started to take Wellbutrin because I was depressed and knew my marriage was going to take an ugly turn and wanted to brace myself for the worse. I got to the point where I would cry a lot and it wasn't until out first counseling session that I realized that upset I was. I then decided that I needed to leave the household. Over the year and a half I would tell my husband that I was unhappy and that it wasn't working for me. We both have different backgrounds. My family is very emotional and open with their affection while my husband's family is not. I began to doubt myself as a person. Everything I did fromt he way I did laundry, grocery shopped, even ran my shift at work (I am a charge nurse) was critisized. This broke me. I couldn't go on living that way. I am at work now and have tears in my eyes as I type this. I love my husband very much. Seeing him hurt does hurt me. I have told him that I rather we be happy apart then unhappy together. I have spent half of my marriage alone as my husband is a pilot. It is hard for me to be on my own. It is scary. In case people are wondering, in no way shape or form is there a third party. I am not even thinking about that right now. This is my time to focus on me. I am not having a pity party. I know that I am responsible for the problems in my marriage. My husband is a good person and deserves to be happy. I sometimes think I am too loud and opininated for him. People describe me as a social butterfly. At work I am the person others seek when they are sick, sad, or have good news. I love being a nurse and being able to help others. I also want to be a mother more than anything. Have I screwed up in my marriage? Of course I have. I am not perfect, but I do love my husband and want us is best for us. Thank you to everyone who supports him.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

sleeplessindesert said:


> Ok, I will tell my side and then move onto my own thread. My husband and I started dating 11 years ago. He was in flight school and I was still living at home 1800 miles away going to a local community college. Long story short, we were engaged two years later when we were 23 and have moved 7 times in the past 11 years. I put off nursing school until he was established with his airline and we had a permanment house. I was very soft spoken when we started dating and everything was about his career. We were very much in love even though we didn't have anything. It was all about being together and the feeling we gave eachother. Over the course of the years I became more independent and mouthier. It started to become a power struggle between us. A year and a half ago something happened where I completely felt disrespected and really began to question the future of our relationship. We tried counseling and that was not the best thing. After counseling I did everything I could to be a good wife. Before grad school I would cook dinner everynight, do laundry, keep a relatively clean house, keep the house well stocked, and would try to look attractive when he would return from a trip. Being critisized started to hurt more and I feel unappreciated. I felt that his friends and our beloved Jasper were a bigger priority than me. I knew that I couldn't live that way. I asked my husband to go to counseling and he said no. We had a huge blow up and he threatened to leave me. At that point I knew we were in trouble. Once again, his friends were made a priority and we got into a huge argument and I asked for a trial separation. He said no. I knew that I needed time to myself as I have never lived alone. Last December I started to take Wellbutrin because I was depressed and knew my marriage was going to take an ugly turn and wanted to brace myself for the worse. I got to the point where I would cry a lot and it wasn't until out first counseling session that I realized that upset I was. I then decided that I needed to leave the household. Over the year and a half I would tell my husband that I was unhappy and that it wasn't working for me. We both have different backgrounds. My family is very emotional and open with their affection while my husband's family is not. I began to doubt myself as a person. Everything I did fromt he way I did laundry, grocery shopped, even ran my shift at work (I am a charge nurse) was critisized. This broke me. I couldn't go on living that way. I am at work now and have tears in my eyes as I type this. I love my husband very much. Seeing him hurt does hurt me. I have told him that I rather we be happy apart then unhappy together. I have spent half of my marriage alone as my husband is a pilot. It is hard for me to be on my own. It is scary. In case people are wondering, in no way shape or form is there a third party. I am not even thinking about that right now. This is my time to focus on me. I am not having a pity party. I know that I am responsible for the problems in my marriage. My husband is a good person and deserves to be happy. I sometimes think I am too loud and opininated for him. People describe me as a social butterfly. At work I am the person others seek when they are sick, sad, or have good news. I love being a nurse and being able to help others. I also want to be a mother more than anything. Have I screwed up in my marriage? Of course I have. I am not perfect, but I do love my husband and want us is best for us. Thank you to everyone who supports him.


Sleep, my H is in aviation and I know how hard it can be on a marriage. You say you became more independent and 'mouthier'. (I'm going to assume by mouthier you meant you stood up for yourself more.) This happened in every aviation marriage I can think of, and is probably true in any marriage where the H is away a lot. The wives I knew had to step into their H's role when he was away because life goes on. it doesn't come to a grinding halt every time he leaves, then resume where it was before he left, although the H's I knew thought it did. The wives were dealing with everything, house, kids, finances, car, and sometimes a job of their own. They had to step up and become independent. 

Kudos to you for managing everything while he was gone.

The big downside was that the H's didn't get it. They missed their quiet, dependent women? And a lot of the marriages didn't survive the disconnect.

(You also moved about as much as we did. Each move puts an awful strain on people.)

Obviously I can't speak for UN, but perhaps his critisizing was a defense mechanism to try and restore his previous sense of being 'in charge'. Maybe he felt threatened by the changes he saw in you. (Correct me if I'm off base here, UN.). Critisizing is always a poor inter-relational choice, but maybe that's the only way he knew how to deal with his insecurity. 

I'm not making excuses for his behavior and I could be very wrong. but do believe me when I say that I know what it's like when your H criticizes you. It's a very deep pain. 

Just some thoughts that occurred to me as I read your post.

It sounds like you two love each other. In that respect, you are way ahead of most of us here who no longer have a spouse who loves us. 

I wish you both all the best.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Let me start by saying that I feel that my wife is perfect for me. 

Frost flower, if you are correct about my motivation to regain control of the household through criticism, it was a completely unconscious reaction on my part. I view us as a marriage of equals and have no conscious desire to be the head honcho. 

I know she brought up more than just one issue, but I'll talk about one thing that really hit home when I read about it, then I need to sleep.

One thing that I have learned about men and women (Martians and Venusians) is that we are often looking for very different things when we communicate. For example, when my wife comes home and talks about her day, always included are the problems that she runs into at work. As a Venusian, she just wants me to listen so that she can talk them out. She is perfectly capable of finding her own solutions without me butting in. But as a Martian, I view her talking about the problems of her day as an invitation to provide her with some advice. On my planet, this would be accepted and appreciated. On her planet, this is rude and insulting. So she gets upset every time I try to give her a solution to one of her problems, and I get upset that she won't accept any of my solutions! This can quickly spiral into an argument even when we both had good intentions. After all, we were both doing what is perfectly acceptable on our home planets.

For me, this makes a ton of sense. My wife is a very intelligent woman. She does not need me to solve her problems. She just needs me to listen. She views my attempts to give advice as me trying to control how she does her job, but I am just trying to help. This is one thing that will be easy to change now that I understand. Just one piece in the puzzle, but certainly a step in the right direction.

Good stuff huh? Just wait until I read chapter 5


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Let me start by saying that I feel that my wife is perfect for me.
> 
> Frost flower, if you are correct about my motivation to regain control of the household through criticism, it was a completely unconscious reaction on my part. I view us as a marriage of equals and have no conscious desire to be the head honcho.
> 
> ...


Yep, that's a major difference between men and women. We women talk about our problems because talking helps us to relieve stress and to think things out. Then the men in our lives jump in and try to solve the problems. We don't need you to solve them. Just listen! I think this leads to imore arguments than justvabout anything else. We get upset and you guys don't understand why. ("I was just trying to help!", you whine.)

UN, you now know one of the keys to male-female relationship. Use it wisely, Young Skywalker!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

We talked on the phone tonight for quite a while. She is so angry for all my mistakes in the past. She doesn't believe that I can change. I don't think she wants to be a pilot's wife, but she says that I can't give up my career. The deck is stacked against me.

This is a little awkward because she is reading all this. She holds the fate of our marriage in her hands. I will continue counseling, but I am going to stop talking about reconciliation. I think she is feeling pressured, and any snap decision that she makes will not work in my favor.

From our talk tonight it really sounded like she wants her space. I will respect that and really get back to the 180. Unfortunately, that probably means that I shouldn't be posting much in here either. This thread has her pretty upset, but everything in here is true.

Another sad night.


----------



## Encircle (Aug 27, 2012)

I found your thread around 3am and read the whole thing. I was very touched at your perseverance and willingness to be vulnerable. Just recently I registered to at least let you know you are doing so much compared to many people I have known. You are able articulate words to at least express your emotions, struggle, insights, and even what most people cannot do, accept or talk about one's own flaws.
I hope you can find a peaceful end to your turmoil soon, and hopefully it's a reconciliation with your wife.

Here are some snippets of my experience that might give you insight of what your might be thinking or feeling. This is not to rob you of hope but at least try to know what you're up against (not your wife but the issues itself) and find ways to counter it.

Your wife might be seeking acknowledgment for her suffering and attention. Everyone needs affection and perhaps your wife is going about it wrong. It's hard to put down pride and say sad devastating things directly to your spouse if she's been bottling it in all this time. It is wired for her to complain but not actually confront with the problem, she probably never saw any of her peers deal with their issues successfully and graciously either.
Then even if she gets the attention from your MC, you, or all of her friends, it may even just support her more to keep acting this way because she found a "method" that finally gives her attention. She doesn't want to lose it whether she is aware of it or not. It finally feels right for her and justified. Another is that she may feel robbed of her anger towards you after all these years since you are so willing to change. In the back of someone's mind, it could set off a realization that they were the one at fault not standing up for themselves earlier because of their beliefs of taking the burden and believing you'd eventually get the hint.
As a defense mechanism, it's easier to project the anger towards their spouse that they caused them to believe nothing will ever change than to accept they had never tried hard enough.
Being robbed, from either side of the party, that you meant nothing or never tried is a devastating statement whether it's true or false.

Then there is also the fear that you are going about this too easily, so it's too good to be true. There are many people who will run instead of stay to work things out with their ex (or going to be ex) because they believe one chance is already too many. They are hurt and can only take responsible of what happened, and do not want to risk it repeating. It's the instinct of "flight or fight"
Despite still loving the person, they will run far away. It gives them a false belief that they have controlled the situation with their own choice, changed their fate, are now not responsible with what you do with your life anymore, and redeemed themselves from making a mistake trying at all with you.

Another possibility is that she wants you to do all the work to prove that you were horrible just so it gives her security she was right all along. The fear that something may go wrong is unbearable, but if the worst case scenario already goes through, she won't have to worry about it in the future. She will finally find peace that she was right about you with the instant results than going "what-if" everyday. The fear is prolonging the inevitability, the logical side of the mind would scream "take charge if the other person isn't showing you the results, or you'll be at fault"

Maybe it's the idealistic love she is seeking. One of the things I noticed is women LOVES being able to get her needs met without having to say anything. It lets her believe that her spouse has been listening and is very attentive. However it's impossible to read someone's mind, but females fall prey since we grew up believing a happy relationship will have those traits. Such as finishing the other person's sentences would prove they are close to each other. Having to tell your spouse to do everything makes the gesture less genuine. An example you could do, but I do not advise you to do so especially without consulting with your MC and these wise people of this forum because it's reckless and very sacrificing, is changing your career without her permission. It'll show that you are willing to change and if something bad happens, it won't be her responsibility. The fear of making you change might make her feel she ruined your life by asking such a drastic change, so she dares not mention anything besides being able to say she's upset about it.

Another is that the MC will probably not be able to address these issues with her unless she is open about talking that she has any of these insecurities or beliefs. It could humiliate or offend a person if MC questions these types of questions, giving the other spouse relief or the upper hand that they were the one not in the wrong. Also it would be discourteous of the MC to assume your wife has such issues. For your wife to actually make a breakthrough for herself, not for you, is to have her own private therapist to unleash all her anguish and insecurities without letting any of the people she is talking about in the same room. It would be less overwhelming for her to admit to such feats and be less aggravated at your MC meetings.

One big thing that females are well known for are putting up "traps" Traps are asking questions where there are no way out to say, sugarcoat, or even lie to please the female. She may not realize that she has written in stone that no matter what you say, you ARE the bad guy. I want to clarify that there ARE no bad guys. Just because you may argue the sky is purple and she argues the sky is green, and you were able to defeat her arguments that the sky isn't green doesn't make you right either. Maybe you're both right, who knows. But a few people do not recognize in their trials of testing if their loved ones will change or redeem themselves that there is a way the persecutor will acknowledge, "You've done enough, and thank you. I forgive you because you did ___."

Does it really matter if it's fact or not if it turns out nothing in the past will matter but one finally will have a happy ending? People can still turn for the worst even if they are ensured a happy love life, bountiful material possession and money, start a life with no debt, are popular, and loved. If the person within themselves feel still empty or not loved, it doesn't matter if their environment changes. So if this situation is about her and not anything wrong with you, you can't help her. You can maybe influence her and make this as less painful for both of you, but will never have a closure that you actually did anything to save this marriage.

Lastly, there are those who say they love their husband but are not in love with them, but their actions speaks otherwise. They stay in the relationship. They probably thought the only way to be grateful and passionately loving is if it's a conscious and instinctual action/emotion. However there are those who says they are in love with their wife, but keeps cheating on them or never shows any actions to make their wife feel that they are valued (that might be what your wife believes). If she truly loves you, she would have to trust you and be vulnerable. Love is risking it all of your soul (though a healthy relationship is that you don't ever have to give up everything), so if she is not willing to stay, maybe she doesn't love you as much as the word she's speaking of.

Personally I think she's trying to find herself again, and maybe can fall in love with you better by being in a separate house. She'll feel in more control with the time she meets with you rather than consciously waiting for you to come home. People tend to feel more fond when they have an obstacle that can easily be overcome such as distance and space. It might feel like dating again rather than following the traditional society rules and burdens of "wife and husband"

Good luck with this Unwind. I'm sorry if this was long to read, I'm not good at being more concise with my conversations. Remember, despite what the past or even present has shown you, there are always exceptions. Perhaps she is able to treat you as an exception.


----------



## donders (May 9, 2012)

^ $50 bucks says the above post was made by the wife.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying I'd risk $50 on a hunch.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Donders, I think you'd lose that $50.

Encircle, I am so glad that you chose this thread for your incredibly insightful and helpful post. I have read most of it twice, and I am really trying to absorb all of it. I promise to be back later this evening to respond properly. I want to scour it again so that I can make sure I understand you fully.

Thank you so much. I'm not a very bright husband, and I need all the help I can get. My marriage is on life support and I feel like I'm blind, deaf, and have my hands tied behind my back. Combine that with dim-witted, and I'm in trouble!


----------



## donders (May 9, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Donders, I think you'd lose that $50.


Ok, then how about a friend of yours, or at least someone who cares about your relationship with your wife?

First post, and VERY long, detailed and well thought out.

Seems rather..unusual, that's all.


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

I too would like to thank encircle for the insight. Understand why our wives walked away and won't reconcile is one of the hardest things for us guys to wrap our brains around.

Now I wish my W could read it. Much of it is unconscious and our WAWs may not be aware of most of those feelings.


----------



## Encircle (Aug 27, 2012)

I found his thread trying to forget my friendship, scouring sites on my phone. Then I read Unwind's thread out of curiosity, to see if I can find a solution or insight of grieving over a friend.

I was surprised but not upset at donders' post. Women can talk a lot, unless raised with internet etiquette or know how to condense their sentences to the main point. I want to focus on Unwind and let him be the judge of what I say if it helps or not despite my age, gender, and language barriers (English is not my first language).

Locke maybe you can type a revision of my post in your own words and send it to her. As long as it's not accusing her, but asking for guidance if she's feeling any of these anguishes I mentioned in my previous post.

One of the statistics I learned back in my sociology class is that when a man suicides, four girls have tried to kill themselves. The reason is when men has made a choice, they will work hard for a goal, sometimes not noticing the consequence, a blessing and a curse. The girls however will contemplate the endless possibilities even if it's not related to them. For example while a female is cooking dinner, she will think about how she forgot to buy the milk, then try to forget her shame by consoling herself that her husband sometimes forget the milk. Then suddenly she gets back to being angry, remembering that her husband _does_ forget the milk. This is now a cycle of negative emotions that kept detouring to another bad memory without solving actually anything nor has any of the party involved to defend themselves. This seed ends up being nurtured by silent bitterness.

I doubt that anyone, even I, can admit directly that I have done wrong and do not love another person. The shame and that perfect image of a wonderful hardworking relationship will shatter even if talked as a third person. When one admits to losing their dreams and are hurting others, they can believe the damage becomes permanent. If nothing is spoken.. then there's a chance. It's called the Schrödinger's Cat. The experiment is that there is a box with a cat in it. The cat may be alive or dead. As long as no one opens the box, there's a chance the cat may be still alive.

My heart goes out to those seeking for help. My motto in life is I will try everything, even if I knew I would fail. So to see those who have a slim chance of what I never had, I yearn to assist others the help I was never given. I was actually condemned for seeking help and people tried to take away my medication, it was a horrible experience that I lost weight down to 79 pounds, and they still didn't believed that I was suffering. Then I kicked everyone's butt and now live a luxurious life! Remember, whatever you do, for good or bad, will have positive and negative consequences.

Despite any said difficulties, I'm proud that you, Unwind and your wife are at least trying with what you both have been through, whether it was for a small or big reason, it's _your_ anguish.
As a person who went through her own worst case scenario that I couldn't fathom at the time, after the worst happens, all you can do is smile and wish to never see anyone else go through what you've gone through.

I have tons to say but I try to pinpoint the main points first or else my posts would be self-help books trying to cover every aspect of a relationship.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I wanted to be on here sooner, but the wife came over and we had a little talk/argument. 

She actually told me that she was going to speak with an attorney tomorrow to get the paperwork started. At this point I tried to stay calm, but that lasted only a couple minutes. There are so many things that I have been holding back because I don't want to piss her off. Once she told me that she will be starting the paperwork, I decided to let them all loose. Couldn't make things worse right?

In my opinion, she is not in the right state of mind to make a life changing decision like this. She is absolutely overwhelmed with going to work full time while going to school full time also. Just when we are starting to make some progress, she decides to call it the end. 

We have been communicating poorly, and I have known this for a while, but only now do I realize the full extent. Her friends were aware that she wanted to leave me 9 months ago! Thats because she actually tells her friends what is going on, and doesn't make them guess. I have to guess, and I was too stupid to figure out that she wanted to leave FOR THE LAST 9 MONTHS. Never did she say "I want to leave". It was always something abstract. Beyond abstract. So abstract that I thought that her complaints were mostly caused by stress from work and school. So abstract that I thought that we could just power through one more year until she graduates, and then everything would be back to normal. I"M NOT A MIND READER. I know that I need to do a better job interpreting what she is saying, but please, if you are going to end your marriage, at least give me the courtesy of speaking so that I can understand you. 

I don't know what's happening at this point. We actually ended up having a decent conversation that I thought was halfway productive, and then she starts talking about how we should be civilized to each other in the event of a divorce. I am in agreement with that.

I'm not playing possum anymore, two weeks is enough of that sh*t. For better or worse, I am going to hold her accountable for her actions. I know she will read this, and it is nothing that she hasn't already heard from me. She is giving up on this marriage. She says that she has nothing left that she can do, but when it comes down to it, she hasn't done a thing to help our situation over the last month. She's trying to play helpless at this point, but SHE'S IN THE DRIVER SEAT. She needs to MAKE AN EFFORT. We are learning so much about eachother right now, and she's about to throw all of that away. So what, so she can use what we learn with her next husband? Use what we learn with THIS marriage! We can still save it, and we can be better than ever! She needs to go to counseling and talk about her problems with a third party. Give it some time! Understand that I will do ANYTHING for her and then believe it!

Could it possibly be all my fault that I had absolutely no idea that she has wanted this for 9 months?! NO! She TOLD her friends what she wanted, and she made me GUESS. Well we're finally communicating now halfway effectively and she wants to throw in the towel.

If I get served papers, so be it. I know in my heart that this divorce will not make her happy. She is just running away because its easier than taking a chance. Life is about taking chances. She asked me "what if we get back together and things go back to the way they were?" Now that we are communicating, I actually know how we really were! Back in the day when she made me guess a things, all I ever heard were the actual words coming from her mouth. "We have a great life" I would hear this CONSTANTLY from her. Those are words that she didn't make me guess. Those are words that I heard and understood. What I didn't hear, (and what she never spoke in direct language) came afterwards. "WE HAVE A GREAT LIFE, _but I'm not happy and I want to leave you_. Who in their right mind would listen to their wife say 'we have a great life' and assume that she is not happy and wants a divorce.

The rest of this entire thread was dedicated to how much I screwed up as a husband. I am able to see where I screwed up. At least some of it. I am learning as quickly as possible how to correct my ways. My wife has yet to truly recognize the detrimental role that she is playing in the failure of this marriage. We are both at fault, and we both need to work on ourselves as well as our marriage. Ditching her husband will not make her happy, because the next guy that comes along could be even dumber than I am. She needs to fix the problems that she has too. So far, she has acknowledged that she has some issues to work on, but nothing has been done. She's stopped trying because she 'has nothing left in her'. What a bunch of bull.

She's quitting. I want her to be happy, and this will only bring sorrow for a long time. I can make her happy. She has been happy before with me, and she can do it again. But she's not going to give me that opportunity. I'm sad. Sad for us and me, but so so sad for her. In the toughest time in her life she is letting go of her biggest supporter. She had all but cut off ties with her mother and siblings, and is currently not speaking with some of her other closest family members. She is scared and alone, and is about to make a decision that both of us will regret for the rest of our lives.

NOW I have done all I can do. Super nice....check. 180... check. Here's your reality check.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm expecting divorce papers soon. It will be the saddest day of my life. She deserves better than to be 32 and divorced.

We were good together too, but all she remembers is the bad.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I'm expecting divorce papers soon. It will be the saddest day of my life. She deserves better than to be 32 and divorced.
> 
> We were good together too, but all she remembers is the bad.


I'm so sorry, UN.

Do you realize that the way you expressed yourself, it sounds like you are saying it will be the saddest day of you life because your wife doesn't deserve to be divorced. I don't know if you meant it that way but, if you did, what about you? Do you deserve to be divorced? You tried so hard to make it work. She is choosing to end it and at this time your caring thoughts are for her. She is shattering your hopes and dreams and you feel sad for her. Who is feeling sad for UN? Is she? 

She will be fine or she won't be. There is nothing you can do about it. Focus on you. I know you love her, but that's not going to change anything. You will only have a limited amount of emotional energy as you go through this. Let her take care of her. You take care of you.

HUGS.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

@ FrostFlower, I have been all over the place lately, but I will focus on myself when the time is right. I am a fighter and a survivor. Right now the action is in her court, and I feel my last chance is to be in her world trying to figure things out. Thank you for your kind words.

@Encircle, I can't thank you enough for the real effort that you put into this. I feel like I have a guardian angel  Every single thing that you said makes sense to me. I know that at least some of your points apply directly to my marriage and my wife. I hope she sees and reads your posts and thinks about it before she meets with her attorney. My wife is still confused, and I know she needs counseling, but if she runs out and files divorce papers then its too late. I can say whatever I want, but its really out of my hands now. She is going to do whatever she wants to do, and I just need to sit and watch.


----------



## Encircle (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm sorry for what has happened, I'm proud of you that you were able to tell her how upset you feel before she became unresponsive or unreachable. Although you are still very loving, Frost is right, you should focus on yourself and let yourself grieve. She can obviously take care of her own happiness and sadness now. She chose to severe any support from you.

Don't of course lash out at full speed and regret saying something that may make matters worst (for an extreme example, threats) that an attorney can turn it against you.

You had the right mindset that you at least tried rather than the thought of succeeding. This will let yourself question less of "what-if" in the future and better closure. Don't make the mistake of being too of a martyr and sacrificing like I did, the spitefulness or "being the better man" doesn't really affect the other party other than hurting yourself. Kindness does not have to be handed out so easily and recklessly. Do what you truly think you need to do, such as keeping your dog you love.

Try seeing if a friend or family member can be your room mate and help with the house bill or taking care of your dog. Or even see if your neighbor would adopt or dog-sit it.

Your wife could've been influence by certain peers to not change her mind. True it's bad changing your mind back and forth, but it could be possible with the idea that one wouldn't want to be considered as a coward by their friends who's been supporting her to leave you. If you were so horrible they would question why she decided to stay with you still. Friendships can be a blessing or curse because they only can hear one side of the story and have advice base on only that. Being committed and the idea of redemption may not be her interest anymore since there is no history or future for her to believe it will be okay otherwise.

A story I once learned through my hardship was that, "Without love, you will not see it." There was a man who believed in magic and his wife who believed in trick. The magic was that the husband believed in Santa Clause because it made his son happy. It gave his son hope and something to look forward to. Also in a way, a reason to behave. However the wife believed this was just tricking him, creating false hope and inevitably she knew, like to any childhood, the child will learn that he's not real. Being a logical, loving mother, she wanted to teach her son otherwise. She didn't believe that her son should behave just because of a fictional character, either. Of course this created a controversy between the parents. To take away someone's hope it becomes despair, but no one realizes if hope goes away slowly it becomes the truth or knowledge. It's easier to adapt to. It's not good to be completely naive, but that being optimistic yet not completely ignore issues allows more opportunities to grow than being told it doesn't exist. Because clearly Santa does exist, everyone knows him, he just doesn't have a physical state. He is a symbolic teaching stepping stone.

There are extreme cases that some people won't let go of Santa despite facts or peers. Then there's those who preferred to be told the truth than blinded by childish treatment, but how do you know what to do? You listen to the individual what they need or you have to take action and try out the options to learn what worked for them. Otherwise you'll rob a possible great childhood. It's a small time frame for them, and so is trying out to save a marriage. How can one have the facts of the future without trying? Trying doesn't mean forever, but different trials within a marriage can occur multiple times and the tries might have to be multiple times.

Maybe she didn't love you as much as she claimed to be. Even those who have complete reasons to leave their loved ones, it was hard for them to leave because they had hope and loved so intensely. They were willing to compromise their own happiness. Humans can endure a lot, but moderation is key.

I hope this helps and makes sense to you Unwind, I haven't been able to get much sleep lately.

Edit:
Aww thank you.. my group of friends loved the idea of angels, so your compliment gave me a very warm nostalgia to my heart.
I really do not blame you or her for whatever happens. For even an angel can have demons within them. I mean demons ascended from being angels, and later were forgiven. They had redemption and became angels again. One may never be the same the next day, so might as well make room to be a better person or make the best out of the day given. The only reset button is forgiveness  Until a time machine is invented, there's no way to undo pain or _happy_ memories.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Encircle said:


> I'm sorry for what has happened, I'm proud of you that you were able to tell her how upset you feel before she became unresponsive or unreachable. Although you are still very loving, Frost is right, you should focus on yourself and let yourself grieve. She can obviously take care of her own happiness and sadness now. She chose to severe any support from you.
> 
> Don't of course lash out at full speed and regret saying something that may make matters worst (for an extreme example, threats) that an attorney can turn it against you.
> 
> ...


Encircle, I love that sentence 'The only reset button is forgiveness'. Thank you for that. You are very wise.


----------



## eldubya (Aug 23, 2012)

Dear Unwind:
I'm so sorry for what happened! I too was left in a position where I had no chance or choice to help the relationship improve, and it does hurt a lot!
I know you will be in for a very difficult time. Lawyers are expensive, and the divorce process itself is wrought with demands and accusations. Get your support network in place, and it does help to let people know at your work that this is happening.
PS--Thanks encircle for your words--they are insightful and healing to many of us!


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your tremendous support. I wasn't even up for 15 min today before I had tears in my eyes.

Someone just sent me this:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I guess this will be my new motto for the time being.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I dodged another bullet. She cancelled her appointment with the attorney today. She says that she wants to give it more time. This should probably make me happy, but all I feel is relief. I don't think I will be happy until I can actually see some progress.

I decided on a major career move today. Its a promotion that I probably wouldn't take if we were still living together. It will mean more time away from home and tougher schedules for a while. In the end, it is what I need to do for myself. I just hope this doesn't interfere with our possible reconciliation.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I dodged another bullet. She cancelled her appointment with the attorney today. She says that she wants to give it more time. This should probably make me happy, but all I feel is relief. I don't think I will be happy until I can actually see some progress.
> 
> I decided on a major career move today. Its a promotion that I probably wouldn't take if we were still living together. It will mean more time away from home and tougher schedules for a while. In the end, it is what I need to do for myself. I just hope this doesn't interfere with our possible reconciliation.


Good for you! Your new position will give you other things to focus on for periods of time, giving your brain and your heart some relief from the constant stress. As for it interfering with R, you could have passed it up and still had no R. Do what is right for you. Don't live your life around the possibility of R. It could end up being a very limited life.


----------



## Encircle (Aug 27, 2012)

I hope things are going well with your wife Unwind. I had to take care of things that I couldn't post to respond but was able to at least read new posts.

I'm glad I was of help of giving people in this thread some comfort. It warms my heart and I wanted to let everyone else know they helped give me insight, too. Everyone is so very gracious and engraved with loving wisdom.

It was good of you to get the promotion, there's actually a chance that you could make time more for your wife in doing so (it's odd like that) or now afford the small moments in a grandeur life. Not to replace time together with gifts, but by buying tickets to a show that your wife would enjoy with you or afford having time off so you could spend a dedicated day with her. I left everything (I even tried with my possessions but my mother insisted to bring a ski jacket to a desert in case it snows..?) entrusting it with God that I may stay safe in this relationship. It's a Russian Roulette chance of life, if you risk more of everything, the reward is multiplied, however so does the consequences.

Your wife had made you so happy enough all this time that your intense love still exist and you are trying very hard to be better for her. She shouldn't disregard and toss all of her efforts if she has come this far. One more try is all you asked with new results she can work off of now. I hope she notices and feel happy and confident within herself that you love her because of her hard work; her presence. But not from trying to leave you.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I hope she gives me one more chance too. The dog was looking through some photo albums today (I guess they're tasty), and I ended up cleaning up the mess and looking through them for a few minutes. We have experienced so many wonderful things in the last 11 years, I can't believe that she is not able to give me a chance to help her find her happiness again.

The reality of the promotion (and the intense training that comes with it) hit me hard this afternoon. I hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew. I'm still so worried about the dog. I think we will need to find him a better home. I'm going to be crushed, but he will be happier in the long run.

I went target shooting with a friend today. That got my mind off of things for a while, and it was good to see a friend.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I can't believe that she is not able to give me a chance to help her find her happiness again.


What about your happiness, UN?


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

The thing that gives me the most satisfaction in life is making my wife happy. Everything I do, I do for her. I was heartbroken when I found out that she wasn't happy all this time. It sounds cheesy, or like I'm lying, but it is completely true.

I will find my peace one way or another, but right now the fastest route to my happiness is to get back together with the love of my life. If that turns out not to be possible, I will move on. 

One thing is certain. The sun will rise tomorrow, and each day brings new opportunities. I'm a positive person and I will make good things happen somehow.


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> The thing that gives me the most satisfaction in life is making my wife happy. Everything I do, I do for her. I was heartbroken when I found out that she wasn't happy all this time. It sounds cheesy, or like I'm lying, but it is completely true.
> 
> I will find my peace one way or another, but right now the fastest route to my happiness is to get back together with the love of my life. If that turns out not to be possible, I will move on.
> 
> One thing is certain. The sun will rise tomorrow, and each day brings new opportunities. I'm a positive person and I will make good things happen somehow.


You sound a lot like me. My MC had my W and i do a personality trait assessment. The one I scored highest in was "Devoted".

In a nutshell, devoted personality types are happy when they make the people they care about happy. The personality disorder that develops with people that are too devoted is codependence.

So a devoted lifestyle can be good, but dangerous when situations come up like you and i are facing.


----------



## gearhead65 (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm a card carrying member also, but here is the problem. You can't and never could make her happy. Still believing that is only holding you back. If you think she holds your happiness, well guess what...
She does. And you'll wrestle it from her cold dead hands. As soon as you realize you hold your happiness, she won't know what to do. And honestly neither will you.


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

gearhead65 said:


> I'm a card carrying member also, but here is the problem. You can't and never could make her happy. Still believing that is only holding you back. If you think she holds your happiness, well guess what...
> She does. And you'll wrestle it from her cold dead hands. As soon as you realize you hold your happiness, she won't know what to do. And honestly neither will you.


Well said. We all have some much self discovery and self improvement to work towards.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Unwind80 said:


> The thing that gives me the most satisfaction in life is making my wife happy. Everything I do, I do for her. I was heartbroken when I found out that she wasn't happy all this time. It sounds cheesy, or like I'm lying, but it is completely true.
> 
> I will find my peace one way or another, but right now the fastest route to my happiness is to get back together with the love of my life. If that turns out not to be possible, I will move on.
> 
> One thing is certain. The sun will rise tomorrow, and each day brings new opportunities. I'm a positive person and I will make good things happen somehow.


What about you?


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> The thing that gives me the most satisfaction in life is making my wife happy. Everything I do, I do for her. I was heartbroken when I found out that she wasn't happy all this time. It sounds cheesy, or like I'm lying, but it is completely true.
> 
> I will find my peace one way or another, but right now the fastest route to my happiness is to get back together with the love of my life. If that turns out not to be possible, I will move on.
> 
> One thing is certain. The sun will rise tomorrow, and each day brings new opportunities. I'm a positive person and I will make good things happen somehow.


Un, you are a sweet person. I completely understand what you are saying. Women are raised to believe that our role in life is to make others happy, particularly our spouses. I am learning through TAM that some men have the same belief. 

It sounds like a noble philosophy. The problem is, and I speak form years of struggle and therapy, that in devoting ourselves to making others happy, we take a backseat (heck, I don't even think we're in the car sometimes). When that happens, we don't consider our needs and our happiness important. We push them aside to take care of the other people in our lives. Consciously or not, we don't think we are as important as others. Eventually, we don't think we're important period. 

That belief is self-destructive. 

Sadly, if we finally address our own happiness, we do it in terms of the happiness of others. We are moved to take care of our needs by the knowledge (usually gained from an outside source because we would never think that way), that if we don't take care of our needs, we will break and then we will not be able to take care of others. So we start to pay attention to our needs, our happiness, but we do it with the end goal of making others happy. And, in the end, UN, we are right back where we started.

I know I'm rambling, but bear with me. I think I'm going somewhere with this. And its helping me to stumble through it.

We've all heard the adage, if you don't take care of yourself, how can you take care of others? Its true, and if that motivates you (and me) to start caring for ourselves and our own happiness, great. 

But, if we stop there, I think we are doing ourselves a disservice that will eventually get us. 

What happens if, no matter what we do, that other person for whom we are doing it for just isn't happy. We've banked everything on his/her happiness. Where does that leave us? Feeling like we have failed at that one thing which was the most important thing to us. We become frantic. We beat ourselves up. We stop taking care of Us again. We are lost.

What we don't understand, UN, is that we cannot be responsible for another person's happiness. Only they can. The only person's happiness we can be responsible for is our own. And when we take on that responsibility, it has to be for Us, not for someone else.

Think about it. How do we go about making him/her happy? We give. Sometimes material things, be it expensive jewelry or their favorite dinner. We shelf our wish to stay home and relax and instead go dancing because that's what our partner wants to do. And on and on.

This past year at school, we discovered a brilliant book (which I can't recall the name of) that helped us help a lot of kids. Its a children's book but it speaks to all of us, particularly those of us who spend our lives trying to make others happy. The premise is that we all have a bucket. When we do something nice for another person, we put a drop in their bucket. We are helping to fill their buckets. At the same time, we are putting a drop in our own bucket because doing something for another makes us feel good. If we do something not so nice, we take a drop out of the other person's bucket. You get the idea. 

I propose that, if we continually take from our bucket to fill the other person's bucket, we eventually empty our own buckets. Going dancing when we would rather veg may add to his/her bucket, but it takes out of ours. That's what we givers do, UN. We keep taking out of our buckets to try and keep other people's buckets full. Eventually, our buckets are depleted. 

We can't depend on others to fill our buckets ( especially if our main other is a taker of drops not a giver). We need to put drops into our own buckets. Not so they are there to give away, but so that we have them. An empty bucket is a sad thing. There is nothing in it to give, but more importantly, there is nothing in it to keep us going, to help us when we face things that remove drops from our buckets....lose of a job or a loved one, our car breaking down on the busy highway, a cruel remark form someone we care about. If we have no drops to cope with life's bumps, we end up destroyed.

All of this is to say, fill your happiness bucket, UN. Not so you have drops to put in her bucket, but so that you will have them when you need them. 

And, to comment on Locke's advice. When we live to make another happy, we are indeed codependents. We are feeding their habit of depending on others.

UN, right now getting back together with your wife would put a drop in your bucket. But over time, how many might it take out? Fill your own bucket by taking care of and doing things for you, so that you have that reserve of drops when you need it.

The sun will come up tomorrow. And when it shines on all those drops it will be all the more beautiful.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Everyone, thank you for your support. I needed this today. I am trying so hard to see things the way you are all saying to. My head gets it, but my heart is hanging on. 

FrostFlower, your analogy with the buckets is beautiful, simple, and effective. I have only started to read it, but this reminded me of the premise of the e-book 'No More Mr. Nice Guy' that Synthetic recommends. You might be interested in reading that as well if that is the case.

I guess my problem with all of this is timing. Right now, whether she admits it or not, my wife is unhappy, confused, scared, and lonely. NOW is the right time for me to fulfill my own needs rather than the needs of my wife? I try to tell myself that it will work, but my heart tells me that that would be irresponsible.

But I know that no matter what I do, I am not the one that can make her happy. Right now, she is looking for a reason to be unhappy. She is looking for a final reason to leave and to justify the decisions that she has already made. She is not looking for reasons to be happy, and she is not looking for reasons to stay. She will eventually find what she is looking for. I just wish I could help her look for the reasons to stay. But I can't do that either.

My brain tells me to shut up, but I keep sending her texts anyway. Its not doing any good, but I cant stop! I have NEVER lost control of myself in this way before. I'm like some stupid animal acting on instinct, and I can't stop.

I am much better on days after I have had a decent amount of rest. You might be able to guess that I barely slept last night. I am the result of sleep deprivation plus a boat load of stress.

I know what I need to do in my situation, I am just having trouble putting it into action. Thank you all for your advice, I am trying my best to make it happen.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> Everyone, thank you for your support. I needed this today. I am trying so hard to see things the way you are all saying to. My head gets it, but my heart is hanging on.
> 
> FrostFlower, your analogy with the buckets is beautiful, simple, and effective. I have only started to read it, but this reminded me of the premise of the e-book 'No More Mr. Nice Guy' that Synthetic recommends. You might be interested in reading that as well if that is the case.
> 
> ...


Un, of course your heart tells you that taking care of yourself rather that your wife is irresponsible. That is exactly what it will always tell you. That is what it has been brainwashed (heartwashed?) to believe. It is a giving heart. A fixing heart. It wants you to give your wife what you think will make everything better for her. The thing is, you do not have that to give. She needs to find that herself. 

You know what, another way to look at it is, if you were able to fix all of her issues, you would be denying her that struggle. 'Struggle' sounds like a bad thing, but it is through our struggles that we develop the strength to deal with future adversity. Would you want to stunt her growth? Children fall and get hurt when they are learning how to run. No-one wants to see a child hurt, but if we deny them the opportunity to get hurt, they will never know the joy of running.

Step back, Script, and let her struggle. That is the loving thing to do.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thank you for that frostflower. That helps some. Although in mind, she is not about to just fall down and get hurt, she is about to get hit by a speeding train. She is making these decisions so fast, we'll be divorced in no time. She seems determined to see the bad in everything. She has forgotten the good in the past, and she's completely blind to any good right now. She makes my positive statements out to be insults. We have most of our unfinished business taken care of, so I should be able to keep from contacting her as long as I keep that in mind. She will see that as me being a jerk... there are no good options.

I'll let her be. I'm fairly certain that without any contact she will end up at her attorney's office. I'll just hope that she can see some things in a different light before then.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Another sleepless night. One thing I just remembered that someone wrote was that you can't keep giving without receiving. I just wanted to say that I haven't ever felt neglected in this relationship. My wife has, and I didn't know it. To top it off, I generally felt as if I was doing more than my share of giving. I was just doing the wrong things. The things that really mattered were the ones neglected.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Unwind80 said:


> Another sleepless night. One thing I just remembered that someone wrote was that you can't keep giving without receiving. I just wanted to say that I haven't ever felt neglected in this relationship. My wife has, and I didn't know it. To top it off, I generally felt as if I was doing more than my share of giving. I was just doing the wrong things. The things that really mattered were the ones neglected.


It's an honest mistake to supply the things to the relationship that YOU think are missing.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It's an honest mistake to supply the things to the relationship that YOU think are missing.


We all do that, Un. Unless the other person communicates, how would we know what they need? Don't wear this as character deficit. As Conrad said, it is an honest mistake. A very human mistake. And it is actually a sign of a good person. You tried to give the woman you loved what you thought she needed. How is that a deficit?

As for the speeding train, she needs to get off the track herself. Unless you wear blue tights and a cape, if you try to swoop in and save her, you will get maimed or killed (I'm talking about your spirit here). There is nothing you can do to stop the train or to pull her out of its way. 

People do survive getting hit by trains and they learn valuable lessons about trains and tracks. 

And, as this train is figurative, the damage won't be fatal. Put it in perspective. You are viewing divorce as the speeding train. Divorce isn't necessarily fatal to a relationship. People do divorce, then reconcile, although you might want to do some serious thinking before considering that. And, even if R isn't a possibility, you both will survive and learn from this whole thing.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I was an honest mistake Conrad. The funny thing is that she used to do a lot of things for me that I didn't really need or care about much at all. I greatly appreciated the things she did for me, because I knew that she did them as an act of love. Things like cooking dinner or doing laundry are great, but I would be just as happy doing those things myself. What I really wanted and needed was to have her spend time with me. That was one thing that she was unwilling or unable to do. I did the same kind of things for her though, not knowing that she really wanted something else. I think the main difference between the two of us is that I was able to recognize the things that she did and appreciate them, even though it wasn't was I really needed.

She made an effort for the first time in about a month yesterday. She asked me if I wanted to meet somewhere for dinner. I said yes, but then she needed to stay late at work, and needed to cancel. She ended up coming over to the house and we took a walk with the dog. We will do dinner tonight.

Conversation with us is sparse and awkward now. All she ever talks about is her job and how everyone loves her there. Once she is done with that, she talks about her school and cats. I don't even know how to talk to my wife anymore. Whenever I try to say anything, she doesn't listen. She pulls out her phone and starts texting. I've told her directly that this bothers me several times in the past, but her answer is that she IS listening. She's not. She did it again last night but I didn't say anything.

I am glad that she is at least trying to take a step in the right direction. We have so many issues. This is going to be a long and rocky road.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I was an honest mistake Conrad. The funny thing is that she used to do a lot of things for me that I didn't really need or care about much at all. I greatly appreciated the things she did for me, because I knew that she did them as an act of love. Things like cooking dinner or doing laundry are great, but I would be just as happy doing those things myself. What I really wanted and needed was to have her spend time with me. That was one thing that she was unwilling or unable to do. I did the same kind of things for her though, not knowing that she really wanted something else. I think the main difference between the two of us is that I was able to recognize the things that she did and appreciate them, even though it wasn't was I really needed.
> 
> She made an effort for the first time in about a month yesterday. She asked me if I wanted to meet somewhere for dinner. I said yes, but then she needed to stay late at work, and needed to cancel. She ended up coming over to the house and we took a walk with the dog. We will do dinner tonight.
> 
> ...


Un, you can't expect her, after everything that's happened, to be comfortable jumping in and talking about intense issues. Follow her lead. Talk about the cat. Show an interest, even if you are a cat-hater. Samie with the other topics she brings up. 

She is using the phone to avoid uncomfortable stuff. So, keep it light.

Gto a movie together, then out for coffee and discuss the movie. The point is, you may have to spend lots of time just chatting about easy stuff for a while. I know you're itching to get into relationship issues. Don't. She's clearly not ready.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I agree with you FrostFlower. I'm not looking to talk about anything serious. It just seems like this is all we have talked about in the last 6 months. She is completely uninterested in anything that I have to say. She communicates that by texting or facebooking any time I am not asking about something to do with her. Most of the time she has very little idea of what is going on in my life since she doesn't usually bother to ask. And then lately with the texting, I haven't really bothered to be very chatty when we are together.

I've tried to talk to her about her use of the phone, but she didn't take it very well. I think all I said is that I thought it is rude. In the middle of one of my sentences, I'll look over and she is typing away and laughing. I just stop talking at that point. She does this to others too, not just me. 

This is obviously one of my complaints about the relationship, but I know it is something that can be worked on.

The movie is probably a good idea. Maybe we can do that tonight.


----------



## LockeCPM4 (Jul 11, 2012)

spun said:


> Come here every time you want to reach out to her to find out what she is thinking.
> 
> Post your insanity. Listen to what people are telling you here. The collective knowledge and wisdom is indispensable
> 
> ...


Yep. Those 2x4s some of the people here carry are painful.

In my case, backing off almost always has an immediate impact. Now I am working on not pushing when she chooses to be around.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I agree with you FrostFlower. I'm not looking to talk about anything serious. It just seems like this is all we have talked about in the last 6 months. She is completely uninterested in anything that I have to say. She communicates that by texting or facebooking any time I am not asking about something to do with her. Most of the time she has very little idea of what is going on in my life since she doesn't usually bother to ask. And then lately with the texting, I haven't really bothered to be very chatty when we are together.
> 
> I've tried to talk to her about her use of the phone, but she didn't take it very well. I think all I said is that I thought it is rude. In the middle of one of my sentences, I'll look over and she is typing away and laughing. I just stop talking at that point. She does this to others too, not just me.
> 
> ...


My kids do the same thing with their cell phones, so do all their friends. I've actually had to ban them at the dinnertable. Is this the new etiquette? Is it now socially acceptable to text when someone is talking?

Does your W do this to others, or just you?


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

She does it to others also. I know its not just me. Some people probably don't mind, but there are some that do like you and I. I tried to tell her that I don't appreciate it, and there are others that don't appreciate it, but it doesn't help.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> She does it to others also. I know its not just me. Some people probably don't mind, but there are some that do like you and I. I tried to tell her that I don't appreciate it, and there are others that don't appreciate it, but it doesn't help.


I almost think we're fighting a losing battle on this one. My kids tell me they are still listening to me, but I can tell by the way our conversation s go, or don't go, that they aren't. This is becoming so entrenched in the way many people behave, that, scary as it seems, it may be the new norm.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Well my love is reading this and she left her phone in the car last night as a gesture of good will. It was very much appreciated  It was good to see her and not argue. The conversation was still sparse, but I am determined to work on that. I think we're both a little afraid of opening up a can of worms if we say the wrong thing.

I'm guessing I probably won't see her until Wednesday now. We have MC that day.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

I forgot to add that she tried to get off work early yesterday to surprise me and spend some time together. I thought this was awesome, but I will try not to get my hopes up every time something good happens. She couldn't make it work out, but its the thought that counts.


----------



## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I forgot to add that she tried to get off work early yesterday to surprise me and spend some time together. I thought this was awesome, but I will try not to get my hopes up every time something good happens. She couldn't make it work out, but its the thought that counts.


That's great. Play it cool. Be her rock.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Glad its going well, Rat. Did you tell her you appreciated her leaving the phone in the car?


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Frostflower said:


> Glad its going well, Rat. Did you tell her you appreciated her leaving the phone in the car?


I'm not that smart, remember? No, I should have. My mind was racing through all the things I should or shouldn't say, and the filter worked a little too well. At least I know she is reading this.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

Unwind80 said:


> I'm not that smart, remember? No,* I should have*. My mind was racing through all the things I should or shouldn't say, and the filter worked a little too well. At least I know she is reading this.


STOP SHOULDING YOURSELF!!!

Everything is a learning experience. You'll get it right next time. I have faith.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

And stop saying you're not smart. Its endearing, but it will work on that mooshy subconscious of yours and you'll end up believing it. 

And its not true.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Well when it comes to marriage I do believe it. If I was a smart husband, my wife wouldn't have left me right? All I can do is learn.

I did thank her for her efforts in an e-mail earlier today. Better late than never I guess 

I saw a commercial for the movie "Couple's Retreat" earlier today, and it got me thinking. Has anyone in here ever gone through one of these type of programs? They have marriage boot camp and stuff like it. Some are group orientated, some are more personalized. I found one in San Diego that looks interesting. It could be a fun trip with some intense marriage workshops, or it could be a miserable four days of arguing. Anyone heard of any couples doing this?


----------



## Encircle (Aug 27, 2012)

That was very sweet that your wife left the phone in the car. You're both quick learners tee hee, once one finally understands the importance of the gesture and how to do so it's not really an emotional sacrifice or self-disrespect.

A point of view I wanted to mention was that I used to do the same about texting while hanging out with friends _all_ the time. It's mostly because of habit that my friends did it too, so I thought it was fine or that it feels like the party can spare a few seconds of my undivided attention (they eventually stopped mentioning it). It's not like I wasn't listening, but in my culture we don't even talk to people while looking at their face, so I never noticed I was doing a very rude gesture since I'm looking down at the phone. It sometimes takes more than one person to intervene or give the brutal truth that a social norm was not okay.

If your wife happens to be anxious someone might wonder where she is, some phones can automatically reply that she's away on a date with you. If anyone gets butt-hurt that she didn't reply quickly, they'll get over it (a relationship will not get ruined because a text message is "delayed").

The self assumption that "If this happens, then I or she must be at fault" is very detrimental to anyone's mental health. Again it can be applied with the argument if you believed in a green sky, and I believed in a purple sky, but you were able to prove the sky isn't purple, doesn't mean the sky is purple. A quote that maybe someone might know, "The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa the bad things don’t always spoil the good things and make them unimportant. And we definitely added to his pile of good things." ~ Doctor Who
It means that good and bad things happen, but they aren't related and don't have to affect each other.

Sure you could pinpoint some of your actions could've played into her trying to leave, but it's not _your entity_ that made her leave. I left a very kind, compassionate, smart, loyal man but I simply _felt _that I couldn't be in this relationship. I didn't understand at the time what was missing or upsetting about our relationship to try to salvage anything. I had no proof to leave him besides I didn't felt right. I was a coward and didn't give him a chance to try to keep me since I didn't want to confront and admit I simply didn't love him enough.

It might make your wife sad, too if she believes you aren't stupid yet you don't even trust her words that you're smart, it makes her words feel pretty moot. Instead be grateful that you've found some epiphany, your wife was so supportive then and you got a chance that many couldn't to say thanks for their support. It's more attractive being positively brazen about yourself or wife than beating yourself over constantly. It doesn't adds more sincerity to your regret and make the others around you feel like they should be comforting you. It's not a comforting attitude as one would've believed so.

Here's a humorous insightful video, "Nice Guys Do Not Finish Last" that I thought might help you. Maybe your relationship is finding common interests again and figure out what are both of your lines. What is considered rude, consoling, respectful, etc, this will prevent pushing triggers that are hurtful to the other party even though one may never fathom it being so offensive. Usually learning to say loving and healing words to your loved one is through interacting each other at activities and chores. But it must've gotten swept under the carpet since both of you scarcely get to see each other.
Nice Guys Do Not Finish Last - YouTube

I never tried couple's retreat but vacations are absolutely wonderful (especially if neither of you have to plan every detail, worry about bills, or worry about transportation). It allows you to interact to create new happy memories, and maybe some bad ones to laugh about it later.


----------



## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks Encircle, I will try and curb the self defacing talk.

As for that video, I think that girl had some kind of point behind all of that profanity  There is no doubt that I was 'swinging for the fences' when I chased my wife. But it must be considered that we have been together for 11 years, and married for 6 of them. People don't stay together for that long with no common interests. You mentioned that we don't spend enough time together, and this is definitely part of the problem. We haven't had time to enjoy our common interests together in a long time. We have had a LOT of good times through the years, some of them even recently. I know we can have more of those given the chance. Things would be even better now that we are learning to communicate with each other more effectively.

We have great times on vacations too. If that is what is needed to save our marriage, then I will have no objections! Anyone else have any insight on couples retreats??


----------



## tombaby (Oct 17, 2012)

UN,

I'm just curious how you've been doing. I found and read your thread in entirety today. It sounds so much like my wife. I noticed you haven't posted in a month. I wasn't sure if it was because things got better or worse.


----------



## Frostflower (Jul 22, 2012)

How are you doing, Un?


----------



## spinna001 (Oct 25, 2012)

tombaby said:


> UN,
> 
> I'm just curious how you've been doing. I found and read your thread in entirety today. It sounds so much like my wife. I noticed you haven't posted in a month. I wasn't sure if it was because things got better or worse.


Hey was up guy i am too is gong through the same thing with my wife. I read through every page and i highly respect you UN and admire you. how are you doing by the way i hope all is well.


----------



## Sunshine50 (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm in the some situation as the woman who lift her husband.I move out of my house because my husband did not give me the attention that I needed it always sports in the morning ,sport in the evening ,sports at supper time, if you get me.My husband started taking me for granted and stop looking at me.So to get him to see me I lift and now it backfired on me and I want to come back home. Because I do love my husband very much but I think he as been getting some advice from someone because he will not talk to me and answer my text.every time I do see him he will be recording me.what I want to know is can I move back in the house?And he change the locks on the house can he do that?


----------



## brokenhubbybolton (Jan 5, 2016)

hi guys my wife and i have been together for 7 years in febuary we married in august 2013 and it was the happiest day of my life the problem is we have 6 kids between us and i used to get sressed out and shout alot at the kids and she warned me numerous times to stop but i didnt i couldnt controll it when they was all being naughty i also used to question her why she was late from work or where she had been as i was home with kids all the time i didnt do it to check on her i was just worried and just wanted to know she was ok i did things without asking her and undermined her with the kids and was a total arse with her somtimes so in september she asked for a divorce i was horrified and heartbroken i groveled and she came home from work and give me a big hug and give me 6 monthsths to change i thought i had to an extent but now she has asked again and told me to move to my sisters wich i have done but i came back a few days ago because there was no one to watch the kids so ive stayed a few days ive tried not to bombared her with questions and been great with kids and not questioned her whereabouts when she has been to work and not come home till 9pm and said she had to do a few things at work and went for a drink with a work collegue we still taliking and laughing with each other and ive kept a tidy house and done all washing and cooking for when she gets home but she says she still loves me but dosent want to talk or discuss our problems we had sex once since the split and it was the best sex we have ever had and she still lets me rest my hand on her leg while watching tv together iam confused and dont know what to do i realy dont want to loose her as she is my skeleton that holds me up and without her id fall in a big heap on floor please help me


----------



## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

@brokenhubbybolton This is a very old thread.so it may be better if you started a new one. Then you'll get advice in line with your situation. Good luck.


----------

