# How do I get out of this loop?



## Sunfish (Feb 10, 2018)

My husband and I have been separated for a little over a year. I discovered in October 2016 that he was having an affair and thinking of leaving me for his affair partner. He was in the midst of a mental health crisis, and looking back, he was probably having mental health issues for some time and self-medicating with alcohol. He moved out in February 2017, saying he needed time to clear his head and decide what he wanted out of life. We have continued to carry on a relationship, emotional and physical, the entire time, all the while entertaining the notion of reconciliation. He is also continuing in a relationship with the affair partner, and she believes he is committed and faithful to her.

I'm stuck in a loop of wanting to reconcile with him and wanting to run far away. I know if a friend were asking me for advice on this situation, I would tell my friend to run far away and don't look back. But every time I nearly convince myself to divorce him and be done with it, there is a voice in the back of my mind telling me that his actions are being influenced by his mental illness, and that maybe I could forgive him if he were to get help and get better. 

I've known him for 27 years, and for many of those years he was a wonderful partner to me. There's also the fact that I still love him very much. And he still loves me. Whenever I try to pull away because I can't take this anymore, he pulls me back in with affection and (usually drunken) professions of love and remorse. We also have two kids together.

He is seeing a doctor on Tuesday and plans to get a referral for a psychiatrist, so that's something. I guess I've been trying to hold out to see if he gets help and to see if he might be able to revert to being a loving partner to me again someday, but obviously that is quite painful. I'm starting counseling next week, so hopefully that will help. Any advice on how to proceed in the meantime?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Stop having sex with him. Stop.

And Stop having sex with him.

What is his mental illness? Alcoholism is the only thing you mention.

My wife is mentally ill, and she had an affair, but she didn't pull garbage like your husband is doing. She made that one mistake, confessed, and has spent the rest of her life doing every little thing she possibly can, given her illness, to prove her love to me. 

Alcoholism cannot possibly explain your husband playing both you and his affair partner at the same time. That is just pure lust and avarice on his part. Totally inexcusable.

Or are you going to fall for the old sex addict ploy?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

No he isn't mentally ill, he is having his cake and eating it too. He is cheating on you and yet you are still having sex with him. Why? Why are you enabling his appalling behaviour? His lying? His cheating? 

No he doesn't love you, if he did he would not be treating you so badly. Stop making excuses for his behaviour. If he was remorseful he would stop seeing the OW. He is quite happy having you both on the go. 

Unless you stop this nonsense nothing will change. Give him a choice, her or you, and stick to it. .


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## Sunfish (Feb 10, 2018)

He indeed does have a mental illness. He was diagnosed with bipolar in March of last year. His depression is so severe that he is suicidal, and did make an attempt at suicide. He no longer cares about anything that used to matter to him, or really anything at all for that matter. His manic episodes are less severe but definitely there. Furthermore there are memory problems and a complete lack of ability to focus that is something new for him.

I've known him since he was 12 years old and the person he is now is a shell of who he used to be. The affair was a desperate attempt at finding happiness, and that didn't work either, yet he's unwilling to end it at this point. 

Of course the solution is to stop carrying on with him. I was hoping for some advice on how to get there, emotionally. I guess I'm nearly there. It's just so incredibly difficult to give up on somebody who had been my best friend since childhood, especially knowing he is so miserable. I guess I should leave that for the psychiatrist to sort out, but I'm definitely having trouble disentangling myself.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Sunfish said:


> He indeed does have a mental illness. He was diagnosed with bipolar in March of last year. His depression is so severe that he is suicidal, and did make an attempt at suicide. He no longer cares about anything that used to matter to him, or really anything at all for that matter. His manic episodes are less severe but definitely there. Furthermore there are memory problems and a complete lack of ability to focus that is something new for him.
> 
> I've known him since he was 12 years old and the person he is now is a shell of who he used to be. The affair was a desperate attempt at finding happiness, and that didn't work either, yet he's unwilling to end it at this point.
> 
> Of course the solution is to stop carrying on with him. I was hoping for some advice on how to get there, emotionally. I guess I'm nearly there. It's just so incredibly difficult to give up on somebody who had been my best friend since childhood, especially knowing he is so miserable. I guess I should leave that for the psychiatrist to sort out, but I'm definitely having trouble disentangling myself.


A sign of mental illness is doing the same thing over and over while hoping for a different outcome.
This is what YOU are doing.
You need to stop enabling him,stop having sex with him and stop being his comfort blanket that is always waiting for him when he decides to leave his girlfriend for a while and throw you a bone.
As it is you are doing nothing,absolutely nothing and hoping he miraculously changes back into the man you married.
He won’t.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

Sunfish said:


> I know if a friend were asking me for advice on this situation, I would tell my friend to run far away and don't look back.


Take your own advice......Your husband is now cheating on the OW with you? Come on! Do you really want to live like this? It's completely crazy! Good husbands don't behave in such a manner. You are simply making excuses for him because you are reluctant to do what you know you should. He is not the victim of some mental malady. He is simply being a complete douche. Even if you get him back, how long will it be before the next time he decides to cheat on you? And by the way, tell the OW so she knows what she's getting (even though she should already know).


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Sunfish said:


> He indeed does have a mental illness. He was diagnosed with bipolar in March of last year. His depression is so severe that he is suicidal, and did make an attempt at suicide. He no longer cares about anything that used to matter to him, or really anything at all for that matter. His manic episodes are less severe but definitely there. Furthermore there are memory problems and a complete lack of ability to focus that is something new for him.
> 
> I've known him since he was 12 years old and the person he is now is a shell of who he used to be. The affair was a desperate attempt at finding happiness, and that didn't work either, yet he's unwilling to end it at this point.
> 
> Of course the solution is to stop carrying on with him. I was hoping for some advice on how to get there, emotionally. I guess I'm nearly there. It's just so incredibly difficult to give up on somebody who had been my best friend since childhood, especially knowing he is so miserable. I guess I should leave that for the psychiatrist to sort out, but I'm definitely having trouble disentangling myself.


yet he is quite capable of being with 2 women and lying to them and deceiving them, which takes planning and memory. He has to remember who he is with and what lies he has to tell each woman. 

I have had severe depression in the past and believe me the last thing I would have been capable of doing was keeping 2 partners on the go. Maybe he is depressed because he knows that he shouldn't be cheating. 

You need to make that decision to stop all contact now. You are enabling this to carry on. Cant you see how he is using you both? 
Just say its her or me. if he choses you then he needs to come back home and cut off all contact with the OW. Yes its hard, but his life is a mess right now and it wont get better unless something changes. 
Please have some self respect.


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

You seem to excuse the affair by saying your H is mentally ill. So technically he hasn’t really cheated? It’s the bipolar disorder that’s made him to do it. And made him not want to leave his AP? I feel incredibly sad for you because you’re stuck in a codependent relationship. It’s the same as enabling a drug addict. You cover up for him and gloss over his mistakes.

You want to emotionally detach and you have asked for advice. You have been told. Stop having sex with him! You are no longer a teenager. You need to summon your self-control. You also need to read the book Love is a Choice that deals with codependency in relationships. You need to get yourself into therapy. You need to go NC. 

Unfortunately you cannot love him into loving you. You cannot fix him by loving him. You cannot love him into dumping the AP. This is beyond you to fix. Your H is not capable of being a husband let alone a good one.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

You can forgive some things easier if a person has a mental illness.

If a person has Tourette syndrome you can forgive them for inappropriate language at inappropriate times.

It is easier to forgive an alcoholic for going on a bender if you ply him with a drink.

Your husband has one of the most difficult diseases to deal with, in my opinion.

My wife's mental illness is easier to cope with. We recognize how it works, and we can work around it. My wife had two mental illnesses for a while, but they decided to reclassify one of them so it is no longer considered a mental illness. Again though it is well managed.

You need to distance yourself from your husband. There is nothing you can do to help him. 

He may be able to get some help from his psychiatrist, for himself. But you just cannot deal with it.

We need @Uptown to post to this thread.

Again, you cannot fix your husband. You can only drag yourself through hell attempting to deal with him. You must save yourself. You must distance yourself from him.

Yes, you can forgive him many things because of his illness. Yes, you can pity him. 

But you cannot have sex with him! I just cannot stress that enough. Please, stop having sex with him. Never allow it again. Every time you allow it you bond yourself to him, and make it harder to break away from him.

Stop the sex, and you will find it easier to distance yourself.

Please be well.

When I see troubles such as yours I thank God my wife's pathology is so easy to deal with.

Cry. Then pick yourself up, and know at least my wife and I understand a little of what you are going through.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Sorry your dealing with this.


Its ok to leave a mentally ill person if the cheat on you!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Mental illness or not, his actions are still crappy.
I think you're trying to find a reason not to be the person who initiates divorce, and his illness provides you with the leverage needed to stay in limbo.

So it really depends on what you want.

Do you want more of the same? Stay exactly where you are.
Do you want to move on? Start divorce proceedings.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

@WilliamM, thanks for the call out. 



Sunfish said:


> He was diagnosed with bipolar in March of last year. His depression is so severe that he is suicidal.... His manic episodes are less severe but definitely there.


Sunfish, I'm sorry to hear that your H suffers from bipolar disorder. A man having a bipolar episode in the past year has a 50% chance of also suffering from BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). See Table 2 at *2008 Study in JCP*.

I mention this to you because therapists often have difficulty seeing the BPD symptoms whenever bipolar is present. And, even if they do see them, therapists often are reluctant to tell the patient about the co-occurring BPD problem because it may not be in his best interests to be told.

Hence, although you have NOT described a pattern of BPD warning signs here, it may be worth your while to take a quick look at my post describing the differences I've seen between those two disorders at* 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences*. It is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW). If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to join *WilliamM *and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Sunfish.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

He won't leave his affair partner because he is addicted to her. This is hard enough for people who are not bipolar. Bipolar people have addictive tendencies so it's even harder. I am not excusing his behavior just explaining it.

Go no contact. Set boundaries. Both of you need them. When his affair crumbles you will have a decision to make. But until that time, let him know how much he has hurt you and that he is not to contact you again. It is time for you to start taking care of yourself and begin the healing process.


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## Sunfish (Feb 10, 2018)

Thank you for the responses. I guess I know I need to stop having sex with him. And I said no this weekend when he tried, so it's a start. 

WilliamM, it is so helpful to know that others understand. Thank you for that. 

Uptown, I read your post about the differences between bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder, and I did some reading on borderline personality disorder. Honestly, BPD rings every bell. It was like reading a description of his behaviors and his emotions. One way bipolar didn't seem to fit was that there is no slow build up of emotions, no slow transition from depression to mania or back. In fact, mania doesn't seem to factor in much at all for him. His mood swings are very sudden. So, how likely is BPD to improve with treatment? Are their pills that help like there are for bipolar disorder? He's not crazy about the idea of talk therapy.

If he does decide at some point that he wants to attempt to fix our marriage, I will have a decision to make, and I would like to be informed.

One of the reasons I'm having trouble going no contact is that I'm worried about him committing suicide. My feelings toward him are one thing, but we have a 9 year old and a 15 year old, and frankly I'm terrified of them losing their father. He has alienated everybody else in his life. The only people left are me and his affair partner, and the affair seems more like a fantasy fling than anything substantial. So, I guess I'm trying to figure out how to help him stay alive and hopefully get help, while keeping enough distance to protect myself and my sanity.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Sadly, darn.

You need to worry about you and your children.

If he commits suicide it is on him. You are not responsible. I know this is harsh. But you cannot allow his mental health to imprison you. Not every suicide can be prevented.

I could say it is unlikely he will commit suicide. I could say because he is getting sex from is mistress he is having fun so he won't do such a foolish thing. But the truth is we cannot know. He cannot know. 

But it is certain that you should not allow the fear he will kill himself control your life. He might do it. If he does, you pick up the pieces of your life and move forward. If he does, it is him who did it, not you. Do not allow him to hold your life ransom by killing himself, or by threatening to kill himself. It does happen. It is a possibility. 

You just have to grasp if someone kills themselves it is not your fault.

I fear he will drag you through hell. He will use tactics such as threatening to kill himself to control you. He may even do it. And if he does, it is a tactic to destroy your life, which he will do in one of his lows. But if he does it, it is the mental illness which makes him do it, NOT YOU!

You have to become strong enough to keep yourself and your children safe from him, and his illness. You can care about him and still divorce him. I fear his illness makes him nearly impossible to help. You cannot do it. Only a professional can help him.

I can cope with my wife's illness fairly easily. I begin to suspect it is because she has two mental illnesses with actually interact to make her want to please me, so it is easy to work with her.

Your husband does not have your best interest at heart. He does not even have his own best interest at heart.

Please keep posting.

Please.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Sunfish said:


> One way bipolar didn't seem to fit was that there is no slow build up of emotions, no slow transition from depression to mania or back. His mood swings are very sudden.


Sunfish, as noted above, bipolar mood swings typically occur once or twice a year and develop slowly. Although that is typical, a portion of bipolar sufferers exhibit "rapid cycling," which is 4 or more times per year. The estimates of this share seem to vary widely but Joseph Goldberg reported in his 2011 article that it's prevalence among bipolar sufferers is 10-15%. (I've seen other estimates that are much higher.)

Also, some psychologists use the terms “ultra-rapid cycling” to describe mood episodes that occur monthly and "ultra-ultra-rapid cycling" (also called "ultradian cycling") to describe episodes occurring over the course of as little as 1 day. These constructs are controversial. In addition, there is a much milder version of ultradian cycling that is called "Cyclothemia" but it is quite rare.

One way of distinguishing them from BPD mood flips is that, whereas the ultradian bipolar cycling generally appears randomly, the BPD mood flips are instantly triggered by some minor thing you say or do. If you would like to read more about ultra-rapid cycling, I suggest you start with the Goldberg article mentioned above and the 2010 article, Bipolar Depression.



> So, how likely is BPD to improve with treatment?


Most major cities offer excellent treatment programs such as DBT and CBT. The reason that BPD has such a bad reputation for treatment is that the high functioning BPDers (who constitute the vast majority of BPDers) usually will not go to therapy -- or, if they go, will not stay long enough to make a real difference.



> He's not crazy about the idea of talk therapy.


The regular "talk therapy" doesn't help much with BPDers because their emotional development typically froze at the level of a four year old. They therefore are fully reliant on the primitive ego defenses of young children: projection, denial, black-white thinking (splitting), magical thinking, and temper tantrums.

The most effective programs (e.g., CBT and DBT) therefore teach BPDers the emotional skills they never had an opportunity to learn in childhood -- e.g., how to do self calming, how to regulate their own emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking, and how to be self aware of their feelings and actions.



> Are their pills that help [BPD]?


No. Yet, because nearly all BPDers suffer from at least one co-occurring clinical disorder (e.g., depression, anxiety, OCD, or PTSD), they are prescribed meds that target those other disorders. Because this reduces their stress level, it can actually improve their BPD behaviors somewhat. But meds don't make a dent in the BPD itself.



> He has alienated everybody else in his life.


This is common for BPDers. Because the vast majority are high functioning, they tend to get along fine with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. None of those people is poses a threat to his two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the engulfment fear. 

Yet, when a casual friend makes the mistake of drawing very close, she will start triggering those two fears. In defense, the BPDer typically will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing at all -- to push her away. This is why BPDers usually don't have any really close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away).



> Honestly, BPD rings every bell. It was like reading a description of his behaviors and his emotions.


Sunfish, some of the BPD warning signs (e.g., great fear of abandonment) are more important than others. Hence, if you would like to further discuss his BPD behavior, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of the 18 traits have been strong throughout your marriage and which have been weak.


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## purplesunsets (Feb 26, 2018)

Hi Sunfish,

I'm so sorry you're going through this. My heart goes out to you and your partner because he is clearly hurting too. I'm not in a similar situation but I am trying to manage the whole "emotionally disentangling" and the one thing I know for sure is I can't have sex with my husband or sleep in our bed together if I want to detach. I simply can't act the same way even though I want to, even though it hurts so badly not to. 

My main suggestion would be to write a list of all the things you want to do, learn, see etc. Plan out your schedule like it is your job. Decide on maybe 1 or 2 social activities you'll do a week. Sign up for classes, do anything new to keep you busy. The idea is that if you are "hooked" on your partner in any way, which it seems like you are, you need a clear plan to keep yourself busy. 

You should also figure out your trigger "times" or "thoughts" and have a plan of action to either avoid or deal with these situations. For example, I think many people are triggered at night because it's dark, it can be lonely etc... So maybe plan to do something each night that is either good for you mentally or physically or socially! I really hope that helps and I'm sending you all my love in these hard times!!


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Book recommendation: Stop Caretaking the Borderline....and get on with your life:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00B60DRKI/ref=tmm_kin_title_sr?ie=UTF8&qid=1520060289&sr=8-1


What part of the loop feels the best? I’d guess it is those times when it seems he will fulfill your ardently felt hopes...when all the worries and stress suddenly melt away because you see sunshine, even just slivers, piercing through the clouds that 99% of the time hang over your existence. I’d guess that the relief you feel at those times feels like an old friend has come to rescue you, and telling you everything is going to finally be ok. It may, if you think about it non-critically, feel like the relief you had hoped would come for you years and years ago, perhaps when you had a heavy weight laid on you as a child.

Those are just guesses. IME, recently, I realized what has kept me in my loop is not the drama, or some strange attraction to conflict itself. Rather, it is the moments of sweet relief, hungered for long before I met my wife.

In any case, detachment is your friend. Anything you can do to recognize opportunities to detach and to follow through and do those things that leave you a bit more detached, will eventually loosen the control your subconscious is exerting to keep you stuck.

Recognize the nature of the struggle for control of your path. That struggle has been silent and within. Give that part of yourself less to fear, less to clutch onto, by detaching little by little and learning to trust what your conscious mind already knows.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Also, go to Al-Anon. Now —like this week. Don’t fret about it. Just do it. If you don’t like how it goes, then you don’t have to go back. But my guess is you will find loving people there who have lived your situation and gotten through it, and you will feel understood and feel compassion and sympathy and safety like never before.

Also, get counseling for yourself, to help you cope with the current situation and see a brighter set of options ahead.


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