# Getting the duty stuff



## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

I've been accepting duty s*x for 7+ years now. I have more details in my intro link below, but quick summary...W thinks she has severe depression/anxiety, is in perimenopause, and possibly has other hormone issues. On top of that, I suspect that she may be a HF BPD. I've tried various things, and have seen slight improvements, but I'm at the point of accepting that this is all it will ever be. Refuses to give/receive or*l. Affection during the act consists of a quick peck on the lips. After that, she turns her head to the side. She'll generally only do missionary, but after I stopped a couple of times, she now agrees to side to side. Basically any other stuff is out. 

I've tried talking to her about it too many times. She simply gets spun up and defensive right away, and usually tells me I'm doing this (talking) to get a green light to cheat on her. I've done the Nice Guy book, MMSL, and other things along those lines. I think I've boosted my MMSL rank a notch or two over the past couple of years. Better clothes, better haircut, hit the weights to get in great shape, etc. Those things, plus a lot of work on me, have boosted my confidence. I feel a lot better/stronger/confident vs. a few years ago. Women have apparently noticed this, and my W notices that others have noticed. Instead of that bringing her closer to me, it just makes her more anxious/angry. I speak to women in front of my wife, but I don't flirt or disrespect my wife in any way. These changes in me have upped our frequency. We were down to once/week or less before, now it's more 2-3/week. That's a mixed bag, though, b/c I generally feel like shyte as soon as I'm done...like I should put a $100 on the dresser and walk out. I've stopped initiating several times, without speaking to her about it first. After 1-2 weeks, she'll come at me with anger and ask me why I haven't asked her for it - "You must be getting it elsewhere!" I guess the maintenance/duty part works for her as well...she gets to check off in her brain that I still need/want her for s*x.

She has stated numerous times that she simply has zero interest in s*x. She has also, when angry, blurted that she has a lot of resentment against me, and she can't get past that. She says that I neglected her for years and didn't handle her emotional illnesses the right way. I admit that there is some truth there, and that's part of the reason that I took a hard look at myself 3+ years ago. I've made a lot of changes, and I think I'm now a much better H, but I guess the damage is done. She is, I think, checked out, and from I've read, once that happens, it's pretty much impossible to get back. 

For now, I'm staying and trying to make things better, mostly for the sake of the kids. I accept now that my marriage may (or will) end, and I can handle that. I think in her case, she needs (not wants) the marriage. She has been a SAHM for 10+ years (youngest has been in school for 2 years now). She has a degree, but doesn't want to work in her field. I'm a good provider, a great dad (IMHO), and a good H (again, IMHO). She has it good in many ways, and I'm sure she knows it. I'm sure she also knows that her life would be more difficult for a while if I divorced, unless she could find another guy to fill my role...maybe that's easily done. 

I'm out of ideas...hit me with feedback/advice.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> I'm out of ideas...hit me with feedback/advice.


Sorry for your troubles Thunderstruck.

Sounds like you are doing the right things by focusing on yourself and being the best you can be. Keep it up.

Your wife is not feeling enough pain to change. As the 12 steppers say - she hasn't hit bottom.

I think you need to up the ante. It will raise the stakes, but it doesn't look like the more subtle approach you are currently taking is going to have a meaningful effect.

Given that sex is the most visible problem, how about try a sexual moratorium. Tell her - you are not enjoying the duty sex and want to take a 90 day break from it. Stay calm and loving - tell her you want to improve your marriage and this is such a sore spot that you will both think more clearly if you stop for the time being. 

Tell her that in lieu of sex, you would like to get to the bottom of her resentments regarding your past treatment of her and her illness. Sounds like you can be there for her, without going into a shame spiral. She will either try to work through her issues (good for marriage) or stay stuck (bad for marriage). 

Either way, you will have more information and a clearer picture about where you need to head next.

You can handle it.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> ...how about try a sxual moratorium. Tell her - you are not enjoying the duty sx and want to take a 90 day break from it. Stay calm and loving - tell her you want to improve your marriage and this is such a sore spot that you will both think more clearly if you stop for the time being.
> 
> You can handle it.


Thanks. I've brought up the moratorium in the past. She reacts with anger and "refuses." Shortly after those talks, I just stopped initiating. It worked wonders for me, b/c I cleared my head on a lot of things on this subject, and realized that yes, I can survive without getting it. I think she needs the security she somehow gets from the act. I have simply stopped out of frustration a few times during the deed, and it drove her apeshyte. Not b/c she was getting any enjoyment out of it, but I guess b/c she needed to check something off in her brain. 

And yes, I know I can handle it. I'm going down this path with a position of strength, and I'll come out stronger on the other end...whatever happens.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

If you suspect she's HF BPD, then you best find out! 

It's entirely possible that there is a significant root cause to her LD and it might not have anything at all to do with you. If she does not currently have a diagnosis, I would suggest getting one. If she's not currently under care and should be... then we can theorize until the cows come home and get no where.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

MrV - yes, I suspect HF BPD, but I'm not pro by any means. A lot fits, but then it could just be related to her multiple other issues. Either way, a diagnosis is probably out of the question. She refuses any professional help, even for the serious issues she admits too. Agree that trying to figure out what's actually going on in her brain will only drive me mad.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> I can survive without getting it...
> 
> And yes, I know I can handle it. I'm going down this path with a position of strength, and I'll come out stronger on the other end...whatever happens.


Been there, done this ^ and I am stronger, actually feel more like a man now than I did when it all began. I want to say good luck, but without diagnosis and proper treatment... I would highly recommend she find some online forums where people who feel the same way have, or are currently, finding help and feeling better. Picking things up from rock bottom is the hardest place to start. =)


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

What a hard situation for you. I can see why you would feel pretty empty after s*x like that. It's tough because she is really the one who has to change here. I think that "chore s*x" is detrimental to both parties. 

Your wife needs to think carefully about what she really wants. If she values you, your marriage, and your family, she needs to realize that she is letting the s*x issue destroy her marriage. She needs help for her depression, and she has to be willing to change. I agree that putting sex on hold while insisting on therapy might be a good step to take.

I feel for you, and I also feel for your wife. As a LD person who struggles with anxiety and depression, I might understand a little of how she feels. It might help to put yourself in her shoes. The fact that she is having s*x with you 2-3 times a week (even when she has zero drive) must also feel demeaning to her. The problem is that she is doing it not because she wants to, but because she feels she has to.

Does she climax when you have s*x? I could get resentful about sex (because I have climaxing issues) if I let myself go there. But I have chosen not to. I WANT a fulfilling relationship with my husband and sex is part of that. I WANT to learn to enjoy it more. The alternative will ultimately lead to our unhappiness and even the breaking up of our beautiful family. 

Tell your wife that you love her, and that you do not want "chore s*x" with her anymore. Tell her that you will do anything to support her while she gets the help she needs. She needs to know that you value her for more than the s*x you can get from her. She also needs to truly understand how important enthusiastic s*x is for her husband.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

momtwo - believe me, I feel for her as well. I've tried to talk to her in a loving way about getting the help she needs, but she just throws up her defense shields within seconds. And yes, I sometimes feel guilty in a way for initiating s*x with someone who doesn't want me. The probably sounds beyond screwed-up to some reading this, but it's true. With that said, I don't see me saying, "I know you don't want me, so I'll just go without...forever...and not leave...and not cheat." I have tried telling her the loving things you mentioned...falls on deaf ears.

Climax? No, not with me in 5+ years. I used to make her climb the walls several times/session years ago, but she now refuses or*l. She, or some other dude must be handling that task now. I can't believe she'd just go cold turkey on that, but who knows?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> momtwo - believe me, I feel for her as well. I've tried to talk to her in a loving way about getting the help she needs, but she just throws up her defense shields within seconds. And yes, I sometimes feel guilty in a way for initiating s*x with someone who doesn't want me. The probably sounds beyond screwed-up to some reading this, but it's true. With that said, I don't see me saying, "I know you don't want me, so I'll just go without...forever...and not leave...and not cheat." I have tried telling her the loving things you mentioned...falls on deaf ears.
> 
> Climax? No, not with me in 5+ years. I used to make her climb the walls several times/session years ago, but she now refuses or*l. She, or some other dude must be handling that task now. I can't believe she'd just go cold turkey on that, but who knows?


I definitely do not think you should go on like you are forever. I don't really think that's even possible. For you or your wife. You might have to give an ultimatum. Tell her that she needs to get help because you can't function in the marriage anymore. It's really not unloving. You are doing it for both her and you.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> I'm out of ideas...hit me with feedback/advice.


Manning up had a similar effect on my wife.

She became quite insecure thinking the changes in me were because of someone else.

It took me awhile to get her to believe the changes were made for her.

In your shoes I`d simply tell my wife I was done and she should begin preparing for the single life because you have a time limited plan and you don`t want to live a lifetime with someone who doesn`t want you.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

If your wife is suffering from depression and has hormonal issues, you can probably stand on your head until the cows come home and she's unlikely to suddenly develop an interest in sex.

IMO, the best thing you can do right now is get her to make an appointment to see her doctor, get her hormone levels checked out and see a therapist for her depression / anxiety. Is she on meds for depression? SSRIs are renowned for causing a decrease in libido, and this needs checking out, too.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

momtwo - no, this won't go forever. As I keep working on myself, my tolerance for this situation is dropping.

tacoma - I thought at first that I was manning up for my wife/marriage, but then realized I was wrong. I made these changes for me. I have told her the words you posted, but not in a direct way. Maybe it's time for that.

Cosmos - she has tried several meds for depression. She takes them inconsistently, says they don't work and then she dumps them. When I confront her, she tries another med...cycle repeats.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Athol's MAP is about raising your sex rank high enough that your wife has to up her game to stay on par with you. Usually, that is a subconscious process.

However, it seems that your wife is aware of the changes and is begrudgingly giving more sex in order to keep you around. Maybe she is too afraid to commit herself fully to you. If you are an 8, and she is a 5, she may feel unable to get to an 8. Even if she passionately threw herself into your marriage, her mental problems may put a hard cap on her at a 7. But you could probably go get an 8, or even dabble with some 9s on the side.

It would be devastating for your wife to give you everything she had only for you to tell her that it wasn't enough. So, she may be holding back for that reason. She figures, correctly, that duty sex is better than no sex. So, she's putting some effort in. Maybe she's up to a 6 right now.

Really, the only thing you can do is talk to her about it and try to reassure her that your plan A is to stay married to her with a satisfying sex life. I wouldn't even mention plan B (other women) at this point. Tell her you've been improving yourself so that you can be the best husband possible for her.

For a healthy woman, I think that is the best shot. And it won't always work even then. For an unhealthy woman, the odds may be longer. But at least you're trying.

Good luck.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Athol's MAP is about raising your sex rank high enough that your wife has to up her game to stay on par with you. Usually, that is a subconscious process.
> 
> However, it seems that your wife is aware of the changes and is begrudgingly giving more sex in order to keep you around. It's may be that she is too afraid to commit herself fully to you. If you are an 8, and she is a 5, she may feel unable to get to an 8. Even if she passionately threw herself into your marriage, her mental problems may put a hard cap on her at a 7. But you could probably go get an 8, or even dabble with some 9s on the side.
> 
> ...


I agree. The fact that she IS having regular s*x with her husband shows that she is at least making an effort. This should count for something. At the same time, I think the OP should stop the "chore s*x." His wife needs to know that the relationship is important to her husband. He wants more than just the act. He wants an emotional connection with her.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

PHT - thanks, I think you nailed a lot of what's going on here. Athol warns at his site that his methods may not work too well on an unhealthy woman. I guess I'm seeing some of that. It mostly just scares the hell out of my W.


momtwo4 said:


> ...shows that she is at least making an effort. This should count for something. At the same time, I think the OP should stop the "chore s*x."


Agree, she is making effort, and that counts for something. So...if I stop the duty s*x, and she never offers more...I guess I just need to file at that point? I guess I already know that answer, but...still asking opinions.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I agree. The fact that she IS having regular s*x with her husband shows that she is at least making an effort. This should count for something. At the same time, I think the OP should stop the "chore s*x." His wife needs to know that the relationship is important to her husband. He wants more than just the act. He wants an emotional connection with her.


Another problem with the chore sex is that it feeds the current resentment. She already has resentment issues. Adding to them is not healthy and will prevent her from letting things go.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> PHT - thanks, I think you nailed a lot of what's going on here. Athol warns at his site that his methods may not work too well on an unhealthy woman. I guess I'm seeing some of that. It mostly just scares the hell out of my W.
> 
> Agree, she is making effort, and that counts for something. So...if I stop the duty s*x, and she never offers more...I guess I just need to file at that point? I guess I already know that answer, but...still asking opinions.


Personally, I don't think you are at the point when you can make a choice about whether or not you will file if your wife doesn't change. You said your wife has been having "duty s*x" with you for seven years. That is a long time for both of you. Although you've talked to her, you haven't taken such an active step as halting the "duty s*x" yet. Concentrate on this and supporting/encouraging her to get help. Try not to even think of filing at this stage (easy for me to say, I know).


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Although you've talked to her, you haven't taken such an active step as halting the "duty s*x" yet. Concentrate on this and supporting/encouraging her to get help.


What "active steps" are there to take with a woman who has zero desire for me? I've tried several times to stop initiating for a few weeks. When she confronts, I've told her that I need more than what she offers. She improves a tiny bit each time, but it's still the duty stuff.


Tall Average Guy said:


> Another problem with the chore sx is that it feeds the current resentment. She already has resentment issues. Adding to them is not healthy and will prevent her from letting things go.


True, but then when I don't initiate, her anxiety shoots up...she assumes I'm cheating. I think her ideal situation in this marriage might be where I would rarely initiate, she would reject, and I would pout like a bish. That way she'd know I still have to have her, but she wouldn't have to "service" me. I know, that's F'd up, but I think that's what really going on here.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> What "active steps" are there to take with a woman who has zero desire for me? I've tried several times to stop initiating for a few weeks. When she confronts, I've told her that I need more than what she offers. She improves a tiny bit each time, but it's still the duty stuff.
> 
> True, but then when I don't initiate, her anxiety shoots up...she assumes I'm cheating. I think her ideal situation in this marriage might be where I would rarely initiate, she would reject, and I would pout like a bish. That way she'd know I still have to have her, but she wouldn't have to "service" me. I know, that's F'd up, but I think that's what really going on here.


I think an "active step" would be putting sex on hold until she resolves her issues. This would probably mean longer than a few weeks. This may make her feel more anxious and insecure, but maybe it will give her the drive that she needs to make the changes that she needs to. Tell her that you would rather NOT have sex than have "duty sex." Hopefully she would realize that you are serious and that she will need to make some permanent changes (counseling, regular medication etc...) if she wants a long-lasting, happy marriage with you.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> I think an "active step" would be putting sx on hold until she resolves her issues. This would probably mean longer than a few weeks.


Okay, but my posts here are going to get really dark/angry in about a week.

Thanks for the advice...please keep it coming.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Honestly, haven't waded through all the replies yet but here's my 2 cents

She needs counseling to cope with her issues with you
She could also use sessions with a sex therapist
You should tell her she needs to get a full time job so that when/if you decide in the future that she still can't meet your needs, she have a source of income (other than leaching off of you)

Sorry to be so blunt but I think you know where this relationship is going


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Sorry to be so blunt but I think you know where this relationship is going


To Toffer and anyone else reading...be as blunt as you can be. I'm not here to have my hand held. 

Yes, I know where this relationship is headed.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm not sure that rejecting your wife's offer of duty sex is the best course of action.

She's making some effort. And she's insecure about the relationship. She knows you want sex. If you reject sex with her, it won't feel any better to her than you felt when she used to reject you. It's personal.

She may interpret your rejection as a sign that you're going to be unsatisfied with anything she does.

Perhaps if you insisted on marriage counseling for the two of you, she wouldn't see it as a mental health screening that she's destined to fail. It could help.

Sorry to be so noncommittal, but you're in a tight spot.

Good luck.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> True, but then when I don't initiate, her anxiety shoots up...she assumes I'm cheating. I think her ideal situation in this marriage might be where I would rarely initiate, she would reject, and I would pout like a bish. That way she'd know I still have to have her, but she wouldn't have to "service" me. I know, that's F'd up, but I think that's what really going on here.


Think about what you have written here. Her ideal is to torture you.

So why are you unwilling to make things uncomfortable for her?


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> ...insisted on marriage counseling for the two of you, she wouldn't see it as a mental health screening that she's destined to fail. It could help.


I've tried several times...she flat-out refuses. I recently started individual MC.


Tall Average Guy said:


> Think about what you have written here. Her ideal is to torture you.
> 
> So why are you unwilling to make things uncomfortable for her?


I can't argue with your torture comment. I think I have made things uncomfortable for her in several ways, with filing as the only big option left. I have made it clear that I expect more than duty s*x from my wife, and that if she continues to refuse to meet my needs, I will move on.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

No ideas but the situation would be worse if the roles were reversed. Men without desire cannot physically provide penetrative mercy sex. Being a woman she physically can and is doing just that and that is something at least.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> I think I have made things uncomfortable for her in several ways, with filing as the only big option left. I have made it clear that I expect more than duty s*x from my wife, and that if she continues to refuse to meet my needs, I will move on.


I don't mean to be overly harsh, but you still sound like a victim. 

I think you are missing something important here. Your wife can't just flip a switch and make herself turn into Linda Lovelace. Your expectations are way out of line.

In rereading this post, it seems that the wife is trying. You need to give her credit for that.

Why are you so scared to do a moratorium? So what if your wife gets pissed. She is going to be more pissed if you "file". As long as your intention is to improve your marriage as opposed to punish your wife, you should be able to smile and lovingly support her if she is upset.

I also think you need to define what "good sex" looks like in your mind. Have you ever had it with another woman?

"Male Sexuality" by Michael Bader is a great book that you might find helpful.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

I just had it out with my wife over similar issues. If there is hope of repairing the relationship, then there's reason to stick with it. But repairing it requires effort by both parties. If she refuses to make an effort, it won't get better. I would tell her that. 

Ask her, does she want to be part of a happy marriage with you? If so, is she willing to make an effort to get there?

I really think things are that simple.


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## happylovingwife (Jun 5, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> What "active steps" are there to take with a woman who has zero desire for me? I've tried several times to stop initiating for a few weeks. When she confronts, I've told her that I need more than what she offers. She improves a tiny bit each time, but it's still the duty stuff.
> 
> True, but then when I don't initiate, her anxiety shoots up...she assumes I'm cheating. I think her ideal situation in this marriage might be where I would rarely initiate, she would reject, and I would pout like a bish. That way she'd know I still have to have her, but she wouldn't have to "service" me. I know, that's F'd up, but I think that's what really going on here.


I think you're right. I was thinking the same thing before you mentioned it. That's the situation I found ideal in my youth. I loved to feel wanted and sexy, but I really didn't want to do anything. I just wanted the attention. Very selfish. 

i've been thinking more about why I would act this way. Why did I think that was totally acceptable (never gave it a second thought really)? I almost think that's women are conditioned to make men chase them and want them. Young girls dress sexy in order to get male attention. They get the attention they desire and end up rejecting 99% of advances. Then when they are married or in a real relationship, they think it's OK to continue this behavior...i.e. get the male attention (S.O.) then reject. It's almost as if they don't recognize the shift in paradigm where it is expected that rejection is not part of the equation. The subconscious reason a lot of men get married is to have tons of regular sex with the woman they LOVE and find sexy.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't know where you live but you could end up paying her alimony for a long time. Look into it. 
Does she have a history of sexual abuse? Does she masturbate? Has she ever had an orgasm? 
I feel for both of you. I don't think I could have sex with someone who acted like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

happylovingwife said:


> i've been thinking more about why I would act this way. Why did I think that was totally acceptable (never gave it a second thought really)? I almost think that's women are conditioned to make men chase them and want them. Young girls dress sexy in order to get male attention. They get the attention they desire and end up rejecting 99% of advances. Then when they are married or in a real relationship, they think it's OK to continue this behavior...i.e. get the male attention (S.O.) then reject. It's almost as if they don't recognize the shift in paradigm where it is expected that rejection is not part of the equation. The subconscious reason a lot of men get married is to have tons of regular sex with the woman they LOVE and find sexy.


That explains why you think you could get away with it, but doesn't explain why you'd want to.


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## dahling (Sep 26, 2011)

My feedback is that I'm a bit curious as to why not ask her to perform the sexual positions to better fulfill her duty. I know many wives who get the script of what their husbands want and put on quite a show. :scratchhead:

Likely you missionary and side-to-side is all she will do as duty sex is considering sex a duty that can't be declined without a good reason implying her consent and desire aren't a good reason. She's having sex to fulfill a relationship requirement and accommodate your sexual desire/emotional need ala the frequency not out of love or desire so for her being there is enough as it's sex.

My advice is to divorce her if you want more position variety or she's not interested in better fulfilling her duty.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> She has stated numerous times that she simply has zero interest in s*x. She has also, when angry, blurted that she has a lot of resentment against me, and she can't get past that. She says that I neglected her for years and didn't handle her emotional illnesses the right way. I admit that there is some truth there, and that's part of the reason that I took a hard look at myself 3+ years ago. I've made a lot of changes, and I think I'm now a much better H, but I guess the damage is done. She is, I think, checked out, and from I've read, once that happens, it's pretty much impossible to get back.


So you have an answer…. No interest in sex because according to her you neglected her for years and did not handle her emotional illness the right way.

Have you fixed the things that she felt were neglectful? 

How did you mishandle her emotional illness? What does she think you were supposed to do differently? While you were going through this time, did she tell you what she needed you to do differently?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

dahling said:


> My feedback is that I'm a bit curious as to why not ask her to perform the sexual positions to better fulfill her duty. I know many wives who get the script of what their husbands want and put on quite a show. :scratchhead:
> 
> Likely you missionary and side-to-side is all she will do as duty sex is considering sex a duty that can't be declined without a good reason implying her consent and desire aren't a good reason. She's having sex to fulfill a relationship requirement and accommodate your sexual desire/emotional need ala the frequency not out of love or desire so for her being there is enough as it's sex.
> 
> My advice is to divorce her if you want more position variety or she's not interested in better fulfilling her duty.


When sex in marriage becomes a duty, the marriage is over. ... unless the couple has a come to Jesus moment over this.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

What the f*ck is emotional illness?

Is that a term used in psychiatry? 

That doesn't even make sense. 

Too many armchair psychiatrists on this website.

The problem we have here is another woman blaming all of her problems on her husband.... plain and simple. She likes being depressed and angry because she has found that being so allows her to stay in control of the marriage. She knows exactly what she is doing and she has her husband by the balls.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> What the f*ck is emotional illness?
> 
> Is that a term used in psychiatry?
> 
> ...


Let's face it... both men and women play this game. I mean some, not all.

When people use the term 'emotional illness' I believe they mean mental illness: things like bi-polar, depression, etc.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I agree that putting sex on hold while insisting on therapy might be a good step to take.
> 
> I feel for you, and I also feel for your wife. As a LD person who struggles with anxiety and depression, I might understand a little of how she feels. It might help to put yourself in her shoes. The fact that she is having s*x with you 2-3 times a week (even when she has zero drive) must also feel demeaning to her. The problem is that she is doing it not because she wants to, but because she feels she has to.
> 
> Does she climax when you have s*x? I could get resentful about sex (because I have climaxing issues) if I let myself go there. But I have chosen not to. I WANT a fulfilling relationship with my husband and sex is part of that. I WANT to learn to enjoy it more. The alternative will ultimately lead to our unhappiness and even the breaking up of our beautiful family.


Agree with insisting on therapy.

Disagree that sex is demeaning for the OP's wife. By his account, she bugs him for sex and accuses him of cheating if it has been a while. Sounds more like the presence of some sex allows her to convince herself that she is a good wife.

If she is not climaxing, that is 100% her fault and no one else's. She only allows intercourse, and only in two positions; what does she expect? My ex would only allow intercourse and yet it was my fault that her world wasn't being rocked. She basically thought she should be able to just lie there and be well-pleasured - it doesn't work like that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I'm not sure that rejecting your wife's offer of duty sex is the best course of action.
> 
> She's making some effort. And she's insecure about the relationship. She knows you want sex. If you reject sex with her, it won't feel any better to her than you felt when she used to reject you. It's personal.
> 
> ...


I am positive that rejecting duty sex is the best course of action. The duty sex may be causing resentment on her part (although I have my doubts). Certainly, the duty sex allows her to believe that she is a good wife and has the OP in hand.

Removing the duty sex "crutch" would shake up her world and make it clear that she needs to provide well. Any claim that he is unpleasable because of duty sex rejection is nothing but a huge cop-out. She likely knows exactly what he wants. At any rate, if he says "I would be happy with ABC acts done XYZ times per week" then that argument is neutralized and it becomes a matter of whether she is willing to build up her capability - this is exactly what he should do.

Agree that they should do marriage counseling. At the same time, she should do IC to identify and resolve whatever issues she may have.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> Thanks. I've brought up the moratorium in the past. She reacts with anger and "refuses." Shortly after those talks, I just stopped initiating.


You are doing it wrong. You don't ask her opinion. You simply tell her that you are unsatisfied with your sex life and are choosing to not participate. If she presses and asks you why, simply state that the duty sex she provides has taken what should be a positive and brought below neutral to a negative.

If she complains that you must be getting it somewhere else, acknowledge that you understand her concern as good sex is an expectation of marriage and her performance has been decidedly less than good for an extended period. Nonetheless, reassure her that you feel better about your relationship without sex at this point, and that you will grant her your continued faithfulness while she puts 100% into her self-improvement.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> I've been accepting duty s*x for 7+ years now. I have more details in my intro link below, but quick summary...W thinks she has severe depression/anxiety, is in perimenopause, and possibly has other hormone issues. On top of that, I suspect that she may be a HF BPD. I've tried various things, and have seen slight improvements, but I'm at the point of accepting that this is all it will ever be. Refuses to give/receive or*l. Affection during the act consists of a quick peck on the lips. After that, she turns her head to the side. She'll generally only do missionary, but after I stopped a couple of times, she now agrees to side to side. Basically any other stuff is out.
> 
> I've tried talking to her about it too many times. She simply gets spun up and defensive right away, and usually tells me I'm doing this (talking) to get a green light to cheat on her. I've done the Nice Guy book, MMSL, and other things along those lines. I think I've boosted my MMSL rank a notch or two over the past couple of years. Better clothes, better haircut, hit the weights to get in great shape, etc. Those things, plus a lot of work on me, have boosted my confidence. I feel a lot better/stronger/confident vs. a few years ago. Women have apparently noticed this, and my W notices that others have noticed. Instead of that bringing her closer to me, it just makes her more anxious/angry. I speak to women in front of my wife, but I don't flirt or disrespect my wife in any way. These changes in me have upped our frequency. We were down to once/week or less before, now it's more 2-3/week. That's a mixed bag, though, b/c I generally feel like shyte as soon as I'm done...like I should put a $100 on the dresser and walk out. I've stopped initiating several times, without speaking to her about it first. After 1-2 weeks, she'll come at me with anger and ask me why I haven't asked her for it - "You must be getting it elsewhere!" I guess the maintenance/duty part works for her as well...she gets to check off in her brain that I still need/want her for s*x.
> 
> ...


First of all, it sounds like she has not been to any substantial counseling. So, I am going to assume either (1) there is no formal diagnosis of mental illness, or (2) there has been an official diagnosis but no real therapy.

That being said, I suspect her complaints about resentment are more smokescreen than anything else. It seems to happen during an argument, which suggests that she's lashing out from a weak position. Also, if she is not getting treatment for her issues then she has no right to be expecting you to tiptoe around them. Lastly, she probably sees that you are upping your score and feels the need to knock you down a peg so that you don't feel the difference (not that it's working).

You see that you are getting looks from other women; you would be able to find a woman to replace her fairly quickly if not find someone to do her heavy lifting right now. She would have a tough time having another serious relationship just for having zero sex drive and an inability to push through that and provide a satisfying experience. Add to that what certainly are issues if not an actual mental illness, and she's concerned about losing what you can provide and being alone.

Keep in mind though that this is an extremely self-centered analysis. Her decision to fight for her marriage could change in an instant if she were to come into some cash (or hide some of yours), decide that she can compel you to provide for her even if divorced, or just gets pissed off enough. Keep your eyes open.

Therapy is a must for her to identify and resolve whatever issues she may have. However, I've heard stories where IC did not approach the issues from a relationshp context, so I would insist on MC at the same time to keep her aware of what her responsibilities to you and the marriage are.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> I think you are missing something important here. Your wife can't just flip a switch and make herself turn into Linda Lvelace. Your expectations are way out of line.
> In rereading this post, it seems that the wife is trying. You need to give her credit for that.
> Why are you so scared to do a moratorium?
> I also think you need to define what "good sx" looks like in your mind. Have you ever had it with another woman? "Male Sxuality" by Michael Bader is a great book that you might find helpful.


I understand that she can’t flip the switch. Are my expectations way out of line? What would be more realistic, accepting the zombie s*x that I’m getting…indefinitely? I do give her some credit for the little she does. Not a whole lot, though, b/c I see it as selfish self-preservation (keeping her comfy situation) on her part vs. wanting to do something positive with/for her husband. Not scared to do the moratorium, and I think that’s my next option here. Unlike last time, when she gets angry and refuses, I’ll simply repeat myself and STFU. Yes, I’ve had great s*x with multiple other women. Also, when things were good with my wife we had p*rnstar s*x at times, and loving/passionate s*x at other times. I’ll check into that book you mentioned.


diwali123 said:


> I don't know where you live but you could end up paying her alimony for a long time. Look into it. Does she have a history of sxual abuse? Does she msturbate? Has she ever had an orgsm?


I refuse to be held hostage in a bad situation just to avoid alimony. I’ve done some basic prep work on this...I’d likely pay 3 or so years of alimony, and CS, of course. She has never told me about s*x abuse. I know that a violent/psycho ex-bf stalked her…he did enough to her and her family to get jail time. She never told me if he assaulted her, but I would think that’s possible. The bigger thing is that her dad committed suicide when she was a little kid. I imagine that must have some effect on who she is now. I have no idea if she MB’s. If not, she hasn’t had an ‘O’ in 5+ years, unless some other person is handling that task. I actually asked her this morning, and she replied, “No, never.” Yes, she's had orgs before. Back when things were good between us, I'd generally give her 2-3 per session.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

dahling said:


> My feedback is that I'm a bit curious as to why not ask her to perform the sxual positions to better fulfill her duty.
> My advice is to divorce her if you want more position variety or she's not interested in better fulfilling her duty.


 I used to indirect and passive aggressive during my “Nice Guy “ days years ago, which was part of our problem. That guy is gone. I am direct, and I tell her what I want. She has an excuse for anything I come up with. I suspect that some may be her body issues. I think she looks great for her age, but she kept a mommy tummy. I wouldn’t D just to get more positions. I could probably even accept missionary if there was some affection/intimacy there. 


EleGirl said:


> So you have an answer…. No interest in sx because according to her you neglected her for years and did not handle her emotional illness the right way. Have you fixed the things that she felt were neglectful? How did you mishandle her emotional illness? What does she think you were supposed to do differently? While you were going through this time, did she tell you what she needed you to do differently?


Yes, that is one possible answer and/or excuse. I believe that I have fixed the things she mentioned. I killed off my “Nice Guy.” I mentioned some of it above, but yes, I took a hard look at myself 3+ years ago, and then worked my azz off to change things I didn’t like and to become the man I want to be. Back in my Nice Guy days , when she started to slip into her depression/funk, I was lost. I responded by walking on eggshells to keep the peace in the house. I thought that was best for my kids. Of course, everyone has their limit, so that would work for a while, and then I’d victim puke on her. We’d cycle and repeat that dance, building resentment on both sides. I handled that in the wrong way. After I pulled my head out of my azz, I sat her down and apologized for my behavior…and told her that I would continue to work hard on me.

As I continue to work on myself and see things clearer, I’m taking less of the blame for those years. Yes, I could have done better. She could have attempted to get the professional help she needed vs. self-medicating with alcohol.


EleGirl said:


> When sx in marriage becomes a duty, the marriage is over. ... unless the couple has a come to Jesus moment over this.


Agree. I would have nuked it years ago if I didn’t have kids at home.


DTO said:


> Agree with insisting on therapy.
> Disagree that sx is demeaning for the OP's wife. By his account, she bugs him for sx and accuses him of cheating if it has been a while. Sounds more like the presence of some sx allows her to convince herself that she is a good wife.
> 
> If she is not clmaxing, that is 100% her fault and no one else's.


Refuses any form of therapy, so I think I'd have to force her with the threat of D, or actually filing. I don't think she'd get much out of it in that case.

Note that I don't think she bugs me about s*x b/c she gets any pleasure out of it. She bugs, IMHO, so she can check off in her brain that I still want/need her. Yes, her not climxing is 100% her fault, b/c she refuses any attempts by me to get her off. 

No, she has no formal diagnosis for any of the issues she claims. Her moron gyno handed her a script for an AD after she told him she was depressed (few years ago). I say "moron" b/c his quote was, "AD's should be in the water supply!" No actual diagnosis, no follow-up with her...it was a disaster, so she quit taking them.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> The problem we have here is another woman blaming all of her problems on her husband.... plain and simple. She likes being depressed and angry because she has found that being so allows her to stay in control of the marriage. She knows exactly what she is doing and she has her husband by the blls.


bandit - you swing a solid 2x4. Thanks. Keep bringing it.

You may be right with some/all of this. I don’t think she “likes” being depressed/angry. She’s had two depressed family members commit suicide, one when she was a kid, the other a year ago. She’s threatened suicide, and I can’t take that lightly. I handed my sack to her after we had kids. I had a shytty childhood, so I vowed that I would hold my family together no matter what. In other words, “Here you go, wife, take my sack and put it in your back pocket.” No more, and she knows it. I’ll go live in an efficiency apartment and become weekend dad before accepting disrespectful BS. She knows this, and she fears it. I know, b/c she brings it up a lot. 

With eyes now open, I can see her attempts to regain control over me…not going to FN happen. I imagine the s*x thing is her last bit of control, and I guess it's time to knock her VJ off the pedestal again with a long moratorium.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

DTO – agree that her resentment comments may be a smokescreen, and yes, that only comes up when she’s really pizzed. Yes, she sees me upping my score, and she sees new attention I’m getting from females…so she is trying to knock me down a peg. Tries very hard to do that…it’s obvious. 

I have no doubt that I could find her replacement, or actually an upgrade…b/c I wouldn’t be with a woman who wouldn’t treat me better than this. My W is an attractive/outgoing person, so I’m sure she could easily hook new guys. I guess they’d stay as long as she could put up her façade. My eyes are wide open to her finding a better “deal.” She would do okay financially in a divorce, but she’d have to go back to work at some point to make it. Unless she found a new dude, of course. I don’t see where she might have the potential to come into big cash. I guess if her mom passed soon, she might get somewhere under six figures, but that’s not really life-changing money.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

It sounds like you have a good handle on this situation. 

I too am very pro-marriage and hope that your wife will step up to the plate and do her part as you quit enabling her.



thunderstruck said:


> She could have attempted to get the professional help she needed vs. self-medicating with *alcohol*.


I missed this before. I think the fact that your wife is an alcoholic (or maybe recovering) is very important.

I don't know how open your wife is to additional counseling, but.....

Are you familiar with Pia Mellody? She used to run The Meadows - which is a substance abuse+ clinic in Arizona. In addition to writing a number of good books, she has developed an intensive workshop to help people deal with trauma and the addictions that often follow. I have done the intensive and know several others who have done it as well. I think the workshop transforms peoples lives and strongly recommend it. PM me if you want more details.

You can learn more here: Pia Mellody workshops


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

FWIW, I started a moratorium yesterday. I think it's the right thing for our situation. She says she's working through some issues and not sure how long it will take. The open-endedness of that is maddening to me. Me wanting sex is pressure on her, which makes things worse. I told her what I was doing and am not telling her for how long so she doesn't have some date in her head that she's thinking about in terms of, "uh oh, here he comes again." But I'm sure I picked a length of time that's plenty long for her to be ready when I am. And it actually takes a lot of pressure off me too because now it's my decision. I'm in control.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> It sounds like you have a good handle on this situation. I too am very pro-marriage and hope that your wife will step up to the plate and do her part as you quit enabling her.I missed this before. I think the fact that your wife is an alcoholic (or maybe recovering) is very important.
> 
> I don't know how open your wife is to additional counseling, but.....Are you familiar with Pia Mellody?


I'd like to think that I have a good handle on it. I know that I'm in a better position vs. when I was a lost Nice Guy. I'm very pro-marriage, and I will give this my best shot. Is my W an alcoholic? She doesn't get stumbling drunk and/or passing out, but she NEEDS it daily. Generally she'll knock out 2-3 beers a day, and then maybe a glass of wine. Not really excessive amounts, or maybe so at 110 lbs. Main thing is that it's daily. My IC advised me to ask my W to go dry for 3 weeks. I asked my W...she refused - "I don't have a problem! I don't need it to feel good. I just like the taste." That tells me she has a problem. My dad was an abusive alcoholic, so I'm sensitive to it.

I've never heard of Pia, but I will file that away for future use. No, W is not open to ANY form of counseling.


Drover said:


> I'm in control.


That's the key, and I hope the moratorium works out for you. When I did an unannounced one (about a year ago) I felt in control and felt more powerful than I've felt in many years. In hindsight, I should not have caved when she confronted me (3 weeks in). This time I won't.

Try to be aware of how you act differently around your wife when you have zero expectation of getting tail. I learned a lot from that.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> Is my W an alcoholic? She doesn't get stumbling drunk and/or passing out, but she NEEDS it daily.
> 
> No, W is not open to ANY form of counseling.


Your wife is a functioning alcoholic. 

She needs help and I think you need to enlist professional support to figure out how to get her to deal with her stuff. Hopefully your IC can help you work through this. If not, get in touch with a local addiction center and get some help.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

My two cents, I am recently divorced from a 30 year marriage, the last two years I was the King of getting "duty sex". Let me assure you that once you go down that road, hard to get back. I didnt know it at the time, (I am an idiot) but duty sex just leads to more and more resentment. My x like yours refused to see a Dr. about her problems, going as far as canceling and appointment I made for her myself. I hated the sex, know exactly what you mean by feeling like just leaving some money on the night stand and going on. Dont have any advice, there are many on here better at it then I am. But, would like you to know that like you, I concentrated on myself, lost 65 pounds, started attending church, gave up tv among a few of the changes. I am 52, in better shape than when I was 35, mentally and physically. I can not believe the number of deseriable women I have had an opportunity to date! I have dated a number of them to find myself shaking my head as to how nice they are, how great it is to be with someone who desires me, who can go out and have a good time (my x NEVER had a good time). I have found one that I think is a real keeper, she desires me and I her. We have great sex, and last Saturday I spent the night at her house, we did not have sex and I think it is the best night I have had in 5 years! We talk in bed for hours, the intimacy is mind blowing. So my point, dont put up with your current situation, because better is def. out there for someone who takes the time to improve themselves and WANTS a loving relationship! My only problem up til now was wading thru all the opportunities to find the best one! lol


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Hoosier - thanks for your 2 cents. It helps to read about guys like you who have come out stronger on the other end.
:smthumbup:


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

thunderstruck - have you tried writing - I completely understand a W who becomes completely defensive when approached to talk. What sort of helped, was writing down what sex/being desired/pity sex/rejection is and how it affects men/people. I linked to websites and quoted from books. Do not do anything that is blaming her, just state plainly what you are missing and that it is a real thing, not just you being a sex fiend.

You could also write about her resentment, and how you feel it is building not subsiding as a result of sex . . . how real lovemaking would cause her anxieties to lessen not grow.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Something else to throw out there. Over the past few months, I've noticed that she will sometimes apologize (after s*x) for turning me down for something specific, or if the session just happens to be particularly "bad." I'm not trying to talk myself into caving on this issue, but I am trying to think of some of the good. Unless it's an act, her apology tells me she feels bad about this situation.


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