# Romance Novels



## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

A discussion topic. My wife sometimes reads 6 or so a week. they are scattered all around her bed. She goes to bed with them, wakes up with them. They are an escape and a place where she becomes unreachable. Kids are hitting, biting, screaming, fighting, I am playing referee and she is completely unperturbed wrapped in her comforter with some chick lit. Our marriage has been affectionless for a decade. This is a place of comfort and one it seems she prefers to the messiness of real life relationships. And she wrote the script of her affair in the genre of romance novel. I think there is a correlation. It seems not to have occurred to her.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Also, I sometimes go by HB, but my wife scours my computer and internet activity and sometimes I would like to be able to participate in this forum without it being recorded in the real life log my wife keeps or having to have a conversation about it at the end of the day. She'll probably find this by the end of the day if I don't delete, anyway.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

my wife reads a lot too, a nook thing,,,,makes her happy


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

spidersab*ch said:


> A discussion topic. My wife sometimes reads 6 or so a week. they are scattered all around her bed. She goes to bed with them, wakes up with them. They are an escape and a place where she becomes unreachable. Kids are hitting, biting, screaming, fighting, I am playing referee and she is completely unperturbed wrapped in her comforter with some chick lit. Our marriage has been affectionless for a decade. This is a place of comfort and one it seems she prefers to the messiness of real life relationships. And she wrote the script of her affair in the genre of romance novel. I think there is a correlation. It seems not to have occurred to her.


I read a lot as well. Not romance novels really, but I love to read and write. I also do not think using hobbies to block out your family is healthy AT ALL. 

Do romance novels cause affairs or dissatisfaction in marriage? I don't know. Do violent video games cause violence? I don't know. I DO know that ignoring your kids and spouse for a hobby is bad bad bad. 

Have you actually spoken to her about saving her reading time for when the kids are in bed and you two have spent husband/wife time?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

If she is detaching from the family, what makes her happy is irrelevant. Oh and that isn't even the bigger problem. She cheated and YOU are under surveillance? There are more things you need to worry about than her reading too many books.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> If she is detaching from the family, what makes her happy is irrelevant. Oh and that isn't even the bigger problem. She cheated and YOU are under surveillance? There are more things you need to worry about than her reading too many books.


:iagree:

Does she monitor you in order to learn what you might know about her?:scratchhead:


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Annie, that is not what I meant. I read a lot too. But not to escape life and create one of fantasy or one in which affairs are fun.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Also, I read and translated Virgil's Aeneid (among other classics) when I was in 8th grade. This is not about literacy and I do not consider romance novels literature.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Probably because you don't read to the exclusion of your family, which is sounds like she IS doing. Have you spoken to her about that?

So if she was reading Death of a Salesman or the Scarlet Letter, you'd be ok with her reading and letting you handle the children with no help?


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Does shed monitor you in order to learn what you might know about her?:scratchhead:


I don't think so. Just another obsession. And she likes the idea that she can find faults in me. Which is another obsession. Many of them are in plain view, so it's not so hard and not a game in which I care to play defense. 

But back to the topic


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

spidersab*ch said:


> I do not consider romance novels literature.


LOL. Some of the "classics" were at one time or another considered "not literature."


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> Probably because you don't read to the exclusion of your family, which is sounds like she IS doing. Have you spoken to her about that?
> 
> So if she was reading Death of a Salesman or the Scarlet Letter, you'd be ok with her reading and letting you handle the children with no help?


Yes. If it was anything of any literary merit, I think I would feel differently about it. There is little overlap in our what we have read and found impressionable. My view, and I am interested in what others think -that is why the thread, is that there may be a correlation between the market for romance novels and infidelity.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. Some of the "classics" were at one time or another considered "not literature."


How many of those came with Fabio on the cover. Dude, I am an extreme libertarian. Think liberal in the Locke, Mill, or Bentham mode.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

spidersab*ch said:


> How many of those came with Fabio on the cover. Dude, I am an extreme libertarian.


I am an extreme pedant and you just moved the goal posts. I hope that was auto-correct because I have no clue what "libertarian" has to do with this conversation. "Don't Judge a book by its blah blah blah." You can have the last word on this budding derail.



spidersab*ch said:


> I don't think so. Just another obsession. And she likes the idea that she can find faults in me. Which is another obsession. Many of them are in plain view, so it's not so hard and not a game in which I care to play defense.
> 
> But back to the topic


Actually it is about the topic. Reading romance novels is fine, no matter how you feel about them, neglecting your family life is not. If she is using controlling actions on you, no passion for a decade in the marriage and an affair there is a bigger problem than "Fabio on the Cover."


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You probably don't remember, but I did a typology of the romance novel a few years ago & wound up reading them for the first time in my life.

They are so predictable that I was able to write a program that generated a character list, complete with physical descriptions, setting and basic plot.

No, these are definitely not literature. They do say something, however, about what women want on a certain level.

ETA: I see you have explicitly added the question about the link to infidelity.

I believe that there is an effect, especially with the explosion of 50 Shade type books.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I am an extreme pedant and you just moved the goal posts.
> 
> Actually is about the topic. Reading romance novels is fine, no matter how you feel about them, neglecting your family life is not. If she is using controlling actions on you, this has there is a bigger problem than you think.


I don't want to get too far into my own situation. I am interested in others' thoughts on the correlation (or lack of correlation) between romance novels and infidelity. We can talk specific titles or authors if that might be helpful.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think romance novels reinforce an understanding of the male mind from the female perspective. They analyze and describe men through the lens of women only. They ascribe character traits and belief structures to men that the average man would barely recognize, but that the women reading come to idealize and fantasize about.

The attributes are physical, mental and emotional. No real-life husband will compete successfully with this because such men don't exist. It's very possible for a woman who reads this non-stop to begin to believe that she has a right to find this 'bliss' somewhere, since there's no chance that she is getting it at home.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I can't read crime fiction because it follows the same pattern as Romance novels to me. I always laugh at the "what is and isn't literature" argument, so I will bow out on that one.

DO I see a connection? In some cases yes, in more cases no.I believe it is all the person. They would have found a way to cheat if they were reading textbooks. I think you'll find a small sample that would cheat because of the life in the Romance Novel. I think a large majority of people can discern fact from fiction.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I am an extreme pedant and you just moved the goal posts. I hope that was auto-correct because I have no clue what "libertarian" has to do with this conversation. "Don't Judge a book by its blah blah blah." You can have the last word on this budding derail.
> 
> Actually it is about the topic. Reading romance novels is fine, no matter how you feel about them, neglecting your family life is not. If she is using controlling actions on you, no passion for a decade in the marriage and an affair there is a bigger problem than "Fabio on the Cover."


Philly, thank you. On more than one occasion in the past I reflected on a post of yours and felt a bit of embarrassment about my response and that in my passion I had missed your point. I think we may not be in a conversation here. I like the tabloids in the checkout aisle. I am happy for anyone to publish what they want. And for people to buy and read what the want. I hate the idea that anyone would be censored. I am not talking about my marriage here. I am interested in what others think about escapist chick lit that involves leaving your marriage, children, commitments and so on.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I can't read crime fiction because it follows the same pattern as Romance novels to me. I always laugh at the "what is and isn't literature" argument, so I will bow out on that one.
> 
> DO I see a connection? In some cases yes, in more cases no.I believe it is all the person. They would have found a way to cheat if they were reading textbooks. I think you'll find a small sample that would cheat because of the life in the Romance Novel. I think a large majority of people can discern fact from fiction.


I think there may be more to it. That these books engender in the reader the feeling that they are unfulfilled and there is something richer and more fulfilling that their lot has not afforded them and it's out there. You're going to put Elmore Leonard or James Ellroy in the same category?


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

She's on it. Just came home and started screaming at me about this thread.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

spidersab*ch said:


> I think there may be more to it. That these books engender in the reader the feeling that they are unfulfilled and there is something richer and more fulfilling that their lot has not afforded them and it's out there.


I agree. An unattainable ideal.

I'm not sure if what I'm going to post next is going to add to the debate, but here goes:

My wife had a period when she began reading these novels (as she had done in her teens apparently). So I used to tease her by reading the back of them. Which he hated. They always seemed feature brooding young men with smouldering eyes.

I think the final straw for her came when I started acting them out in real life for her, providing my own commentary...

"[azteca] stood at the doorway brooding with latent sexuality. He looked over to where [Mrs. azteca] lay; waiting, panting with anticipation. His eyes smouldered. How she longed for his manly touch..."

If you can't laugh together, what can you do?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Romance novels are to women as porn is to men. They can both create relationship problems, neglect, and unrealistic expectations.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

F*ck it. This failed. I am going to start working on living the life the Penthouse Forum letters promised me when I was 12.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

I always feel like an apologist for romance novels when this topic comes up, but here I go again...

I don't think it's fair to say that women who read romance are more prone to infidelity or even for having unrealistic expectations of their romantic partners. How does that begin to make sense? 

I am a prolific reader and I read across all genres, including romance. I rarely discriminate against any genre. To be fair to any detractors, there is a lot of crap in this genre. But there are a lot of really good authors (at the top of their craft) who write very good stories in this genre as well. Also, every genre has crap in it. You have to find a way to weed them out. I typically use review sites or blogs for recommendations because I hate wasting my reading time on subpar books.

Some people like to compare romance for women to porn for men. This can definitely be true. Romance has many subgenres and a few of them aren't much different than the above mentioned Penthouse letters. But can you pick one of these books up and use it to represent romance fiction as a whole? Not even close. For just about every genre of literature, romance has a subgenre to include it. There are romance sub genres that are very chaste and the main characters may not even kiss during the book.

A great romance novel, has a compelling storyline, hopefully a new and interesting take on the same plot devices that are used in all genres, and the one thing that separates out a romance from all others...the happily-ever-after. That's why I choose to read a romance novel. When I don't want to feel the weight of the world on my shoulders after reading a bittersweet ending of some "legitimate" literature, when I just want some simple entertainment that I can put down at the end and walk away without it hanging over my head, I pick up a romance novel. If I'm in the mood for something heavier than that, I look elsewhere.

Which brings me to another point, reading is my primary source of entertainment. I don't watch a lot of TV or movies or games. I like to read. I don't neglect my family for it, but when my family is watching the latest terrible TV sitcom that I can't stomach, I'm in the corner with my reading light, reading the latest whatever happened to catch my fancy book. 

But actually, being a reader seems to breed readers. My kids spend a lot of their free time reading, also.

I would be pretty incensed if my husband disparaged my reading content. I don't judge him based on the characteristics of a fictional person. It hasn't ever happened. I don't expect it ever will. 

I have a healthy sense of the difference between reality and fiction. I don't suddenly start believing in magical elves when I read fantasy. I don't ascribe negative intentions to the people around me when I read a murder mystery or a thriller. I think I'm pretty normal in that ability to discern the difference between reality and fantasy.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> You probably don't remember, but I did a typology of the romance novel a few years ago & wound up reading them for the first time in my life.
> 
> They are so predictable that I was able to write a program that generated a character list, complete with physical descriptions, setting and basic plot.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you are saying your program wrote the book? If not, what's so special about writing a program that will kick out a generic outline if you have already fed it the generic parameters? I definitely would not call that literature either! 

To be fair, a lot of romance definitely falls into "pulp" category. I'll give anybody that. But there's literature in there too. But you won't find it randomly.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Wait... did your wife actually cheat in real life or she just wrote about it in a script?

Make no mistake, almost every avenue of entertainment is a form of escape, and some people even use work to escape. When taken to extreme it will effect your real life. When your spouse, family or work is complaining that you don't dedicate enough time to them, then it's time to cut back.



spidersab*ch said:


> She's on it. Just came home and started screaming at me about this thread.


Hope she read it. Maybe she needs the wake-up call.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> Wait... did you wife actually cheat in real life or she just wrote about it in a script?
> 
> Make no mistake, almost every avenue of entertainment is a form of escape, and some people even use work to escape. When taken to extreme it will effect your real life. When your spouse, family or work is complaining that you don't dedicate enough time to them, then it's time to cut back.
> 
> ...


Look, since my wife is on to it, I am Harken Banks. I didn't want to talk about me here.


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## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Who is Harken Banks?


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> Who is Harken Banks?


Everyman. Anyone could be.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Wanting1 said:


> I'm not sure if you are saying your program wrote the book? If not, what's so special about writing a program that will kick out a generic outline if you have already fed it the generic parameters? I definitely would not call that literature either!
> 
> To be fair, a lot of romance definitely falls into "pulp" category. I'll give anybody that. But there's literature in there too. But you won't find it randomly.


It's not the fact of the program that is special or even the output. It is rather the fact that the lot of romance novels can be boiled down to such completely reliable features and to such a level of programmatic detail that is interesting. As a genre, it is extremely tightly defined in terms of content and message.

And the romance genre only very rarely spits out a work that can be put into the category of literature as defined by the world at large. William Faulkner defined literature famously and well in his Nobel acceptance speech & romance novels fall seriously short of his understanding.


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

I read A LOT. I love my Kindle. I am part of a book club. And sometimes, especially after a heavy read, I will read something completely trashy...its my indulgence. 

I prefer 'smut for the smart' (and yes, there is a difference). I've never cheated, never wanted to....but when I get reading something good and steamy, the sex goes off the charts. Hubby loves it. 

Books don't make people cheat any more than video games make people violent. People either are or they aren't. They have free will and make choices.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

loopy lu said:


> I read A LOT. I love my Kindle. I am part of a book club. And sometimes, especially after a heavy read, I will read something completely trashy...its my indulgence.
> 
> I prefer 'smut for the smart' (and yes, there is a difference). I've never cheated, never wanted to....but when I get reading something good and steamy, the sex goes off the charts. Hubby loves it.
> 
> Books don't make people cheat any more than video games make people violent. People either are or they aren't. They have free will and make choices.


Nice one, Loopy Lu, and this is where I wanted to go.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

loopy lu said:


> Books don't make people cheat any more than video games make people violent. People either are or they aren't. They have free will and make choices.


If people are immersed in something - steamy romance novels, online porn, video games - it makes sense that it influences their thought processes. If the exposure is heavy, the influence can be strong and measurable. Sometimes this spills over into actions.

Look at the CWI effect - people come here all the time, read thread after thread, and then notice that they have become extremely cautious or suspicious in ways and areas that they never were before.

Reading a lot of something has its effect.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

People have free will as consumers to read/look at as much crap as they want. A little crap may have little effect. But it stands to reason that a lot of crap is going to do something to your neurons, like it or not.

Even too much of a good thing isn't good. So too much crap really can't be considered healthy, and it certainly isn't good if it becomes an obsession and takes away from family time.

What's crap? Like that definition of porn: "I'll know it when I see it?" I think in literary circles, romance novels pretty much fall in the category of crap. It's like porn in that most people usually only let very few people know that they consume it because it's not something to be proud of. (The 50 Shades phenomenon is an anomaly.)


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

So let her read. It's where she is right now. She has an emotional need fulfilled by those books. It may be the gone spark of your relationship, the passion, the new, the adventure. She feels she lacks that in real life so she found an escape in romance novels.
How about you try turn your marriage into a romance novel so she won't need them anymore, instead of complaining?
How about you approach her gently and ask her with genuine interest what does she find in those novels. How can it be applied to your relationship and that you are willing to make her feel passion and romance with you again.
On that note, you can remind her to balance her time more wisely, as you worry that all that reading is taking a lot of time off the kids. Communicate your concern in a non judgemental way, otherwise you would just make her defensive.

On the other hand, as others said, if she cheated, why are you under surveillance, and not her ? It's not funny, but lol..


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Hey Hark, lol, I guess this means you are still together.

At my age, I have had a lot of experience with serious lit, movies etc.

I have had plenty of tragedy and experience with the human condition.

I really enjoy stories I can expect to have an upbeat, optimistic ending.

A few years ago I heard a famous fellow talk about reading Amy Fetzer. I bought a book, it was about military guys and a heroine and I loved it. My daughter pointed out the book was a romance novel, what the hell? Some of her books are evidently the type with typical front covers. The ones I have read, are more like a team of Seals, etc. In the Jason Bouurne category.

Back to your question. Reading fantasy is escapism, six novels a week seems to be eexcessive escapism but that depends on reading speed and time spent reading and if its in the way of real life.

Does romantic novels romantisize infidelity, if they do the surely affect some readers.

Why is your wife monitoring you. Is this counter survailance?


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Wanting1 said:


> I would be pretty incensed if my husband disparaged my reading content. I don't judge him based on the characteristics of a fictional person. It hasn't ever happened. I don't expect it ever will.


Maybe I have been guilty of this. It seemed to me that the plot of many of the books (at least the ones where I read the back cover or other summary) involved a woman unfulfilled in her life who comes alive when a handsome and mysterious stranger enters the picture. And that was just too close to what to what happened in my real life. I didn't care so much what she read until life imitated art. I wondered if anyone else thought there might be some correlation. Maybe the proliferation of chick lit is in response to an audience that has come to its attitude on independently. Maybe there is no correlation at all. The consensus seems to be that there isn't much to it.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Oh, please, let's not get into the 'all romantic fiction is trash' discussion again. Jane Austen wrote romance novels. Clearly there are differing styles, content, themes and types of romance novel.

Some romance novels _are_ porn, others are along the lines of a cheesy Rom-Com movie, some are more like_ Little House on the Prairie_. And some are _Wuthering Heights _or _Ivanhoe_. But I think _most_ women can separate fantasy they read from reality they live. Just as I think _most_ men can separate porn they watch from sex with real women. The ones of either gender who can't manage that need a serious wakeup call, and perhaps some serious professional help.

Is she reading romance novels that feature infidelity? I read a lot of romantic fiction, and to be honest, I don't see the hero or heroine cheating all that often. Maybe I subconsciously weed those out when selecting books, but honestly I've only encountered a handful in the last 2 decades. Most of what I read tends to revolve around a woman who is _single_ and unfulfilled in her life. The hero is also single and unfulfilled, in some way, in his. What your wife may be reading is that new breed of chick-lit, along of the lines of _Eat, Pray, Love_. I think they reflect the sort of entitlement mentality that is rampant in our culture, but that mentality wasn't created by those novels. I can see how that type of fiction might appeal to someone with a cheating mindset, since it would reinforce the entitlement she already feels. Those books simply aren't entertaining to me after dealing for many years with a husband with similar entitlement issues. I also don't mentally group them with "romance novels", though perhaps others do. 

To be honest, anyone who is reading 6 books a week - which, don't get me wrong, I can and have done - and is neglecting her family to do it, has an issue that isn't about the content of her booklist. She's escaping real life. That's not healthy. No matter what she's reading, she's neglecting her family, her marriage, and I suspect much of the rest of the real world. That's an issue with her, not her reading choices. Just as it would be if she were engaged in any hobby that took up that much of her time and energy.

By the way, that you indicate you might be okay with her neglecting her responsibilities and being checked out of real life, *if only she were reading something more elevating*, is also a little troubling. You may be right to feel superior because she cheated, or is a poor parent, or any of a number of other legitimate reasons. But to look down your nose because you think you have "better" taste in literature?


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Hey Hark, lol, I guess this means you are still together.
> 
> At my age, I have had a lot of experience with serious lit, movies etc.
> 
> ...


She reads fast. 

I don't know what about her obsession with monitoring me. 

Dead horse at this point, but I connected up something between these silly stories that seem all the same and all seem to involve leaving your dreary life for one of romance and adventure (yes, a lot of them with women of a certain age discovering coming alive after the disillusionment and disappointment of marriage and children).


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Oh, please, let's not get into the 'all romantic fiction is trash' discussion again. Jane Austen wrote romance novels. Clearly there are differing styles, content, themes and types of romance novel.


I hate Jane Austen. Not as a person, as an author.



Rowan said:


> By the way, that you indicate you might be okay with her neglecting her responsibilities and being checked out of real life, *if only she were reading something more elevating*, is also a little troubling. You may be right to feel superior because she cheated, or is a poor parent, or any of a number of other legitimate reasons. But to look down your nose because you think you have "better" taste in literature?


I didn't mean any of those things. She is a very devoted mom and very capable and accomplished. I think I have not been clear. My only question is whether any of you think there may be some correlation between infidelity and the seeming booming popularity of stories about women finding themselves mired in the drudgery of being wives and mothers and experiencing renaissance through romance outside of that. That's all. My wife is smart. Sharper than me.


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## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

Romance fiction (and other fiction) is escapism. Affairs are another kind of more drastic escapism. There may be people who find these novels to be "precipitating events", but not unless they had poor boundaries in the first place.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

I did write that she becomes detached and unreachable when she is in these stories. She does that with facebook, internet solitaire, and other things as well. I have my faults too. In this thread I was just interested in whether anyone else felt, as I do, that there is some connection. There may not be. And some have made that case well here.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Start reading them with her.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Start reading them with her.


Matt, what?!


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Start reading them with her.


Or pull out a Playboy. Lol!

I want to say harken to the banks on this one.

Obsession is usually not healthy. I tend to obsess over things that interest me. Limits for any activity tend to keep us balanced.

I think a woman needs some fantasy. It probably would be good to escape reality now and then. What your describing in the orgininal post is past that.

Personally not a fan of porn. I looked over the years, and have grown tired of it. I don't get uptight about a men looking at it, but when their wife is hurt, it should stop.

Same goes for her romance reading.

Cheating is the result of actions. The novels can be an influence, but it is her action that would cause it. She sounds a little too lazy to pursue an affair based on my view of your description.

My question is what are you willing to do to end it?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Start reading them with her.


Buy some rope and read FIFTY SHADES OF GREY with her.

Are you guys living together?


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> Or pull out a Playboy. Lol!
> 
> I want to say harken to the banks on this one.
> 
> ...


Ha! Porn, when it is the professional astuff is funny. Funny and then quickly boring. And sad all the way through.

Anywho, I am not looking for advice here. I meant to introduce a discussion topic. I am interested in what others think. (And she is demonstrably not too lazy to pursue an affair.)


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Buy some rope and read FIFTY SHADES OF GREY with her.
> 
> Are you guys living together?


We are still living together. Kind of. We don't share a bed, but we are under the same roof. 'nuff about that


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Romance novels and soap operas are to women what porn is to men.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

richie33 said:


> Romance novels and soap operas are to women what porn is to men.


there may be some analogies, but how many guys come away from watching porn thinking all I need to complete me is a girl who will take a load on her face?


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

spidersab*ch said:


> I hate Jane Austen. Not as a person, as an author.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't mean any of those things. She is a very devoted mom and very capable and accomplished. I think I have not been clear. *My only question is whether any of you think there may be some correlation between infidelity and the seeming booming popularity of stories about women finding themselves mired in the drudgery of being wives and mothers and experiencing renaissance through romance outside of that. That's all. My wife is smart. Sharper than me*.


No. People either have it in them or dont. It doesnt explain the hordes of women who read them and DONT change/cheat/whatever. Plus the amount of men (and women) who enjoy regular porn and dont cheat. 

Tell me, do men get 'mired in the drudgery' of being husbands and fathers? This feels like a bit of a gender stereotype. 

Women are progressively taking charge and ownership of their own sexuality. Sometimes this is manifested in the literature they read. Its not new, however, its becoming more readily accepted. 10 years ago, You wouldnt see a woman reading 'The Happy Hooker' or some Anais Nin on the train. Now its acceptable. And those with appropriate boundariers and healthy outlooks reap those benefits at home with partners. Cheaters dont. 

However, Id be especially happy if H decided to pick one up to see what the big deal was.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

spidersab*ch said:


> there may be some analogies, but how many guys come away from watching porn thinking all I need to complete me is a girl who will take a load on her face?


A lot actually. Or that anal is an immutable right and that if I loved him I would do it. Speaking from experience.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

loopy lu said:


> No. People either have it in them or dont. It doesnt explain the hordes of women who read them and DONT change/cheat/whatever. Plus the amount of men (and women) who enjoy regular porn and dont cheat.
> 
> Tell me, do men get 'mired in the drudgery' of being husbands and fathers? This feels like a bit of a gender stereotype.
> 
> ...


I like Anais Nin. 

I am one of those men who has taken on a lot of the household and child rearing responsibilities. A lot of them. A lot. A lot a lot. I had thought it would help and a lot of it I enjoy but it has not been good for our marriage. I cherish the time with my daughters so it is all worth it to me. But I have become a bit of a doormat.

Also, I do not know what you mean about taking charge and ownership of their own sexuality. This is a forum about infidelity. I am all for sexuality. Especially within marriage. If I could underscore that I would. Have you been the victim of some form of sexual abuse? I am not sure what you are getting at.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> A lot actually. Or that anal is an immutable right and that if I loved him I would do it. Speaking from experience.


Well, I have not taken a survey. Your experience seems kind of sad.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

spidersab*ch said:


> there may be some analogies, but how many guys come away from watching porn thinking all I need to complete me is a girl who will take a load on her face?


Too much of either would most likely warp ones thinking.


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

spidersab*ch said:


> I like Anais Nin.
> 
> I am one of those men who has taken on a lot of the household and child rearing responsibilities. A lot of them. A lot. A lot a lot. I had thought it would help and a lot of it I enjoy but it has not been good for our marriage. I cherish the time with my daughters so it is all worth it to me. But I have become a bit of a doormat.


Yeah, then the issue is not what she's reading, but as previous posters have said, that she is not engaging with her family. 

Everything in moderation.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

spidersab*ch said:


> Well, I have not taken a survey. Your experience seems kind of sad.


About as sad as a parent retreating behind any hobby or interest to the detriment of her family. I guess we all have sad experiences, right? 

Richie, I agree with you 100%. Too much of either can warp.


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

When I look at porn I do get the itch. For me it happens. Can't speak about anyone else but in my case there is a correlation. So either I act on it or use discipline in my life. Which I rarely do.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

So it is established that basically no one thinks there is any meaningful correlation between the eat pray love stuff and infidelity. With that, we should move on to other topics.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

Oh, and Emily Griffin. Her bio says she graduated summa cum laude from my law school in my graduating class. I was law review (grade on) and I never heard of her before her books turned up around my wife's bed.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

My mistake. re-reading summa cum laude seems to have been an undergrad achievement.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

And I guess it's Giffin, not Griffin. All of this said in my best Louis Winthorpe the Third.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Bought my wife a Kindle and she's been in her own little world ever since. I don't consider her romance novel reading any form of infidelity but in her case it's a waste of at least 6-8 hours a day.


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## spidersab*ch (Nov 26, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Bought my wife a Kindle and she's been in her own little world ever since. I don't consider her romance novel reading any form of infidelity but in her case it's a waste of at least 6-8 hours a day.


Good stuff. I did not mean to say that reading romance novels was a form of infidelity. It was something else. Oh, why bother


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

spidersab*ch said:


> So it is established that basically no one thinks there is any meaningful correlation between the eat pray love stuff and infidelity. With that, we should move on to other topics.


Actually, not that it matters, but I actually do believe there can be a correlation. I don't think it's the 'Eat, pray, love' stuff, though. I think it's the '50 Shades' stuff and the absolute explosion of like-minded books that are now firmly ensconced in the romance section of e-book offerings. I think in the right doses, this shapes thinking and can affect marriages, even encourage infidelity.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Actually, not that it matters, but I actually do believe there can be a correlation. I don't think it's the 'Eat, pray, love' stuff, though. I think it's the '50 Shades' stuff and the absolute explosion of like-minded books that are now firmly ensconced in the romance section of e-book offerings. I think in the right doses, this shapes thinking and can affect marriages, even encourage infidelity.



For what it's worth, I don't place "Eat, pray, love" under the romance umbrella. It's chick lit. It's different. The 50 shades stuff I guess falls under it, way, way under, in the BDSM subgenre. I don't go in for *that* kind of reading myself. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around how it leads to infidelity though, but I'll think on it. 

I think though using 50 shades as an example of romance is extremely misleading. And the original post was about romance novels, not BDSM, if I remember. 

So, this is my take on it. A cheater will look for excuses and rationalizations in *anything*. Movies, music, literature (yes romance is literature, just maybe not your kind), etc. But really, very few romances even feature a love triangle. Most of them are straight up single guy, single gal, stuff happens, happily ever after. How does this lead to infidelity? I can't wrap my head around your logic. 

Romance novels model a paradigm where two people come together, fall in love, and have their HEA. Romance novels do not feature cheaters breaking up families and then living happily ever after. Sometimes, there may be a love triangle (I personally avoid these), but they are actually pretty rare. 

Finally, my personal experience is that the extent of my personal emotional involvement in a romance, invigorates my senses. It reminds me of the first "rush of love" I felt for my husband. We are 15 years in. Sometimes, we get caught up in our lives. The day to day drudgery of it. Then I read a romance novel, close the book, and look at him, and it all comes rushing back to me. Why I picked him. What he is to me. How we are perfect for each other, and ultimately, that we are living our own happily ever after. 

Romance novels have never led me down a path to infidelity, though I have read several hundred. Why not? Because...I am not a cheater. There's your difference.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

FWIW, the Fifty Shades package sat on the front page of the Barnes and Noble romance nookbook section for over a year. This has changed only very recently. There are numerous, numerous clones of this particular author on the same page and they are selling millions of copies under the rubric of romance. They are not being marketed as BDSM no matter how particular readers may personally classify them.

And the standard non-Fifty Shades pulp romance novel typically glorifies the rakish male who suddenly gets religion for the girl of his dreams. His infidelity before he is struck dumb by the heroine is well-accepted and often lauded. Many of the pulp historicals are very blase' about extramarital affairs, as if it's the accepted model for certain classes in certain eras.

Is there a definitive study that directly correlates these newer books with infidelity? Not that I'm aware of, but people are studying it both because of the sheer numbers of these books being read and because the subject matter of the romance genre has been shifting. To rule out a correlation simply because you don't believe it is unscientific, in my opinion.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

spidersab*ch said:


> Oh, and Emily Griffin. Her bio says she graduated summa cum laude from my law school in my graduating class. I was law review (grade on) and I never heard of her before her books turned up around my wife's bed.


Emily Giffin writes Chick Lit not Romance. The one book I read of hers, the main character is engaged and is having an affair with her fiancé's friend and gets pregnant. Later her fiancé calls off the wedding because he's fallen in love with her best friend. After much self-absorption she learns her lesson, yada yada, has the baby and marries a childhood friend. 

Anyway, I don't think there's any correlation between reading romance novels and infidelity. I read my first romance novel about 6-7 years ago. It was a free book on Kindle. It was a fun read and no, I didn't think about cheating.

Regarding the issue about neglecting the family because she's always reading. Once in a while, I will be anticipating a book release from a favorite author and I'll tell my husband, "Husband, such and such book is coming and once I start reading I may not want to put it down. Fair warning." That only happens 1 or 2 times a year. What you describe it sounds like your wife trying to escape from the family. I guess I can relate to your complaint because my husband is the same way with computer gaming. He spends so much time with it, I feel like he's not wanting to spend time with us.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Wanting1 said:


> Romance novels model a paradigm where two people come together, fall in love, and have their HEA. Romance novels do not feature cheaters breaking up families and then living happily ever after. Sometimes, there may be a love triangle (I personally avoid these), but they are actually pretty rare.
> 
> Finally, my personal experience is that the extent of my personal emotional involvement in a romance, invigorates my senses. It reminds me of the first "rush of love" I felt for my husband. We are 15 years in. Sometimes, we get caught up in our lives. The day to day drudgery of it. Then I read a romance novel, close the book, and look at him, and it all comes rushing back to me. Why I picked him. What he is to me. How we are perfect for each other, and ultimately, that we are living our own happily ever after.
> 
> Romance novels have never led me down a path to infidelity, though I have read several hundred. Why not? Because...I am not a cheater. There's your difference.


I find your post enlightening, Wanting1. We needn't get bogged down into a debate about the relative merits of 'high' and 'low' romance literature. I think we can agree that the material we choose to read will influence us in some way. This will vary for each individual as they respond and process the same written words depending on their own pre-conceptions, emotional engagement and life situation.

You're very open and explicit in how you use the romance novels you read to channel that first "rush of love" feeling back to your husband. Your post has allayed, if I'm honest, a slight insecurity I had for precisely what need my wife had for romance novels. I think I took it as a slight for a lack of romance in our marriage. I see it now as simple, reasonable escapism in the same way I treat sport. So, thank you. In my defence, I'll say not being the target audience it's easy to misinterpret what romance novels might represent.

It's also noteworthy that you deliberately avoid the love triangle romance books. You state that you are not a cheater. I believe you. One trait I've seen in those determined not to cheat is the way they actively avoid questionable behaviour. Love triangle romance is in-congruent with the idea of re-directing emotional energy back into to your marriage. 

I can however see how a different person, perhaps one that has a greater propensity to be unfaithful could be seduced by the idea of a "_Mysterious _stranger" who will take them away from their daily drudgery. A steady diet of romance literature could lead a person to be primed and accepting, dare I say, entitled for the time when OM arrives in their lives.

This would explain why no matter how many hundreds of romance novels Wanting1 has read, won't influence her to cheat. And also how the same novels in different hands (and heads) might.


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